Incarnation 1

14593 -- My response to a Chapter Summary, which asked questions about the father-son relationships in HP, specifically in GoF. I said that Harry is in an artificial situation, where a true father is not present, and "the relationship between a father and a son is tremendously complex, and must of necessity have both postive and negative aspects for a balanced maturity. Harry has several adult males in his life, who fulfill portions of the role of father....And Snape is the negative aspect. He's the one who doesn't understand, who sets curfews, who won't let you explain, the one you just *hate* and can't wait to move out of his house. I think together, these men are providing Harry with what he needs, emotionally---and you need the negative, as well as the positive. I doubt this is deliberate on their parts--I think it's just the way they each are--but I think this is how Harry's psyche is accepting them. He has not considered Snape a physical threat to him since the first book; he really reacts to him the way a boy does who does not get along with his father."

14814 -- MMFanfic agreed, and added "Speaking of father and son relationship, I think you've missed the most prominent one in the series: Snape/Dumbledore. .It's interesting because it contrasts with the relationship Harry has with Dumbledore. (I don't buy the theory that Snape feels threaten by Harry's closeness to Dumbledore, mainly because the two relationships are entirely different matters.) Snape/Dumbledore has a grown son and father relationship. Dumbledore looked on with amusement (and exasperation) the way Snape acts but never 'order' him; he merely offers gentle advice, as an equal or an older, wiser man."

Subthread, Snape motivation (expulsion = worse fate than death)--you probably already got this

14815 -- Magda Grantwich wrote: Has anyone noticed how fanatical Snape is in his reverence for Hogwarts? Rules are everything. And he can come up with no worse punishment for Harry - who he loathes - than expulsion from Hogwarts: a fate he seems to regard as the equivalent of exile.

14821 -- Me: Very, very good observation. It's true. Outer darkness, ultimate fate to wreak upon Harry = expulsion. And Sirius says Snape was always trying to get the Marauders expelled, too. So was Hogwarts the home that Snape didn't have where he came from? Have all his actions been somewhat "protective" of Hogwarts, too--even the bad ones? Was he trying to get disrespectful troublemakers out of Hogwarts where they didn't belong, instead of it being a personal dislike? Was he involved with the Death Eaters for a similar reason? Great insight, I'd never thought of that.

Morphing into Subthread (why does Snape dislike Hermione), you probably already got this, too

14836 -- Thinking along these lines, Doreen asked, "Why does he also antagonize Hermione, who is striving to be THE Hogwarts prize pupil?"

14842 -- Magda: Because she's part of Harry's gang.

14847 -- Brill suggested, "Has anyone considered the possibility that at least part of Snape's animosity toward H/H stems from a "drill sergeant" mentality? I.e., being harder (in this case, MUCH harder) on those students in which he recognizes potential for great achievement, encouraging them to push themselves along harder?

Further morphing into Subthread (why did Snape join the DEs), you probably got this, *too*

14927 -- Schlobin/Susan McGee/She Who Types With Ellipsis, responding to Magda's 14815, said "Fascinating. Could it be that Snape became involved with the Death-Eaters for the very reason that many people get involved with cults, gangs, etc. --- that they have had no roots, family, support....this would cover his Hogwarts obsession and his DE connection..."

14956 -- aprilgc@hotmail.com said "I actually like the thought about Hogwarts being "home" for Snape (and leaving Hogwarts being the reason he joined the DEs). People who feel they have no place to belong do tend to get sucked into cults, don't they?"

Incarnation 2

27617 -- "Father figures revisited" was a retitled response to someone; I said "Snape. Father figure, mostly the negative connotations. The aspect of father that you rebel against, the one who sets curfews, who doesn't listen, who just doesn't understand, who doesn't even want to, the one you come to appreciate only much, much later. Resented, but respected. This is the sort of relationship where a bond grows, but when (sometimes if) discovered, comes as a surprise, even a shock."

27619 -- Leslie agreed and did some psycho-stuff: "In talking with a friend of mine years ago, he told me that men "find themselves" through first rebelling against their father figure. Through this rebelling against their fathers, they end up coming to a deeper understanding of manhood and fatherhood"

27681 -- Tabouli chimed in, "I have observed at least three men having violent backlashes against their fathers in their late teens (one of these men being my brother), rejecting everything he stands for, can't bear the thought of ending up like him, etc.etc., who all miraculously came around by their mid-twenties, having not only abandoned their resentment, but also completely imitating and affirming behaviour from their fathers which they previously condemned! Fascinating..."

(a couple more general agreements and the thread was hijacked by Sirius people)

Incarnation 3:

37958 -- Archgarchus makes comment in a long post that "despite all of Snape's disagreeableness and rancor, he is really the only true "father" figure in the series to Harry....it is Snape who actively and consistently protects Harry...I believe that part of JKR's "conclusion" to the series in Book 7 will be Harry's eventual understanding of Snape and Snape's behavior. Part of growing up is realizing that surface appearances are not all that they appear to be." (she/he? also reveals herself to be totally sold on Snape/Lily, by wondering the same things I wonder...LOL)

37961 -- Carole refutes this mention rather vehemently, apparently thinking that being a father figure involves some intent to be so or is defined by showing someone how to love or be loved, and in 37974 tries to clarify what "father figure" means to her and thus why it's so incomprehensible.

37969, 37971 -- some general discussion, nothing quote-worthy

37985 -- Me: "A clarification, by the way--Snape as a father figure, at least in my usage of this phrase, refers to Snape filling some aspect of the role in Harry's psyche, whether perceived consciously or not. I am not talking about Snape being aware of this or casting himself in this role." and then I quote my earlier posts, being too frazzled to reword it again.

37988 -- Pippin observes, "Even a loving father may not always seem so in a child's perception. IMO,Snape embodies the rule-enforcing, protective aspects of fatherhood, which may seem unreasonable,harsh and demanding even when they are well-meant. To the child, the loving father and the demanding father seem to be two different people, one benign and the other not, and so they are represented in fantasy."

37999 -- Exploration of the idea by Hana, for/against, getting into motivation and away from the point

38001 -- Great statement by Archgarcus, in line with Pippin: "Just because a father figure is not "Ward Cleaver" does not mean that he is not a father figure."

38016 -- Marianne says, in response to observations in 38009 & 38013 about how Harry reacts differently to chastisement from Sirius, Lupin, and Snape, "Part of being an effective father-figure is the ability to guide someone when they are following the wrong path. Or to try to correct improper or dangerous behavior. Or simpy to let a child know that their actions are wrong and that they have not behaved in the way that's expected of them. However, that message has to be delivered effectively in order for the child to learn the lesson. Harry's problen is that he is willing to be guided by Remus and Sirius, but they are not present day-to-day. Snape is there, but Harry still sees him as more adversary than ally."

38022 -- I respond to Marianne, "Firstly, this sounds like you think Snape is *trying* to be an effective father figure...I think the idea that he could be considered as such would horrify him, if it even occurred to him. Second, nobody said he was an *effective* father figure. I said he was a father figure. The aspect of fatherhood that I believe he's standing in for, in Harry's psyche, is the aspect that is least effective anyway...the "do what I say because I say so" father...This is the father who has the desire to protect a child, and the authority to take steps to do so, but the complete inability to connect with the child to communicate anything; thus the efforts generally produce rebellion and estrangement."

38029 -- Rita the Catlady says, "I don't share the faith, widelly expressed on this thread, that the negative father always has good *intentions* toward the child, much less that the child will always grow up to realise that the negative father had good *results*." That said, she goes on to condemn Vernon Dursley for total lack of good intention, and state that Snape's intentions towards Harry are ambivalent, to say the least.

38043 -- Carole asks again, "why do we need to squish Snape into a father figure role at all? That is obviously not his intent and not anything Harry would welcome in the least... why oh why does this have to be translated into some sort of either benevolent or malevolent fatherly figure."

38058 -- Pippin responds, "Because Harry is so emotionally engaged with Snape," and does a brilliant analysis of this. "..Snape also provides a positive role model for fatherhood. Others have pointed out that so far Sirius and Lupin haven't had any real conflict with Harry. He's been willing to accept all their judgements, despite some mild resentment. I wish, as a parent, that I were always so convincing and my children were so receptive. But because children have the right to be kids, and refuse to see reason even when it is pointed out to them, a parent sometimes has to thwart the child. To be an effective parent one has to be willing to endure some bitterness and some shrill yells of "I hate you!" without giving in or giving up. Who's modeling that behavior? Snape."

38084 -- Yaay! for Gwen's neat summary: "... let me point out that whether either Snape or Harry *wants* this relationship to exist is actually irrelevant...Harry's subconscious will fill in the gaps in his psyche by supplying the behaviour roles of those around him, in a position to influence his conduct, for good or ill. Whether it is welcome or intended is not the point. The point is that as a strong, older, male force in Harry's life, especially one who represents authoritarian rule, Snape *will* make an impact and fulfill one aspect of the father figure."

38104 -- I break list rules by doing nothing but cheering Gwen and pointing everyone back at her post

Incarnation 4 (actually, one random independent mention that didn't generate any discussion)

38514 -- Theresnothingtoit says, "...some of Snapes reactions are incredibly parental...I can see Snape as the type of father who will ask twenty questions before he would let his son out the door: where are you going, what are you doing, who are you going with and do I know them, when are you coming back etc. etc."