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Original Message
From: "le miz" <les miserables77@x...>
Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004  2:35 pm
Subject: Harry's Sympathy for Snape

I was thinking about Snape's Worst Memory and I realized something important: Harry sympathizes with Snape.

That might not seem very earth-shattering, because we readers clearly see who's the bully and who's the victim, but how many times has Harry fantasized about torturing Snape? You'd think that he'd be delighted to see his father, the hero, doing to Snape what Harry's wanted to do for so many years -- and probably doing it better than Harry could at this point -- but instead, he identifies with *Snape*.

Why is that? I mean, it's true that Harry has spent many years being Dudley's punching bag, but he's also been tormented by Snape. In the first chapter of OoP, in fact, Harry gets a real kick out of goading Dudley, who he knows won't retaliate while Harry's got his wand. 

What happened in the interim to change Harry's mind? Why didn't he cheer on his idolized Father, beloved Sirius, and admired Lupin? What led Harry to identify with the victim instead of the torturer when Harry himself isn't above cutting a bully down to his own size? (Remember the final train scenes of GoF and OoP with Draco et al.)

--Le Miz, who doesn't add a tag line unless she can think of something clever to say
Response 1
From: "livianwarrior" <lasmith33@y...>
Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004  4:57 pm
Subject: Re: Harry's Sympathy for Snape

 --- In HPforGrownups@yahoogroups.com, le miz <les_miserables77@x...> wrote:

> how many times has Harry
> fantasized about torturing Snape? 

Has anyone gone back and *counted* the times Harry wanted to torture Snape?  Just wondering.

Livia
Comments
Livia's comment does not make a canon-based argument; that is, she doesn't dig into canon and draw a conclusion. This question would be more appropriate for HPfGU-OTChatter. Livia could also consult the Lexicon or the FAQ.
Response 1 Corrected
From: "livianwarrior" <lasmith33@y...>
Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004  4:57 pm
Subject: Harry "Torturing" Snape (WAS: Harry's Sympathy for Snape)

--- In HPforGrownups@yahoogroups.com, le miz <les_miserables77@x...> wrote:

> how many times has Harry
> fantasized about torturing Snape?

In Book 1, he thinks about it X times, in Book 2 he thinks about it X times, in Book 3 he thinks about it X times, and in Book 4 he thinks about it X times, and in Book 5 he thinks about it X times, making a total of X times in the series thus far. In fact, Harry thinks about torturing Snape more than he thinks about Quidditch.

Look at this example:

[example of Harry wanting to injure Snape]

You can see that Harry's wishes are rather fleeting. We never see Harry making actual plans to harm Snape, nor does he ever attempt to carry out his negative desires.

This sets him apart from Snape, who may exercise self-restraint with most of his designs against Harry, but who doesn't seem to pass up very many opportunities to land a blow on Harry if he thinks he can get away with it.

Livia

This time, Livia does her homework before responding, and she's able to come up with a canon-based argument as a result. Livia would qualify as a LOON (League of Obsessed Nitpickers) because she went through and counted all of the instances of Harry's negative Snape thoughts. (The List Elf who created this example is not, however, hence the 'X's and the missing example.) We don't require that people be *that* obsessive, but we do welcome it nonetheless.

Because Livia pulls together raw canonical facts and comes to a conclusion, the post is appropriate for HPforGrownups.
Response 2
From: "PotterSux.die.die.die" <22irc456@r...>
Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004  5:29 pm
Subject: Re: Harry "Torturing" Snape (WAS: Harry's Sympathy for Snape)

You went through all 5 books and *counted* the times?  Don't you people have anything better to do?  Sheez. [1]

[2]
> Le Miz, who can't think of something clever to say, wondered:

> > how many times has Harry
> > fantasized about torturing Snape?

> In Book 1, he thinks about it X times, in Book 2 he thinks about it X
> times, in Book 3 he thinks about it X times, and in Book 4 he thinks about
> it X times, and in Book 5 he thinks about it X times, making a total of X
> times in the series thus far. In fact, Harry thinks about torturing Snape
> more than he thinks about Quidditch.

> Look at this example:

> [example of Harry wanting to injure Snape]

> You can see that Harry's wishes are rather fleeting. We never see Harry
> making actual plans to harm Snape, nor does he ever attempt to carry out
> his negative desires.

> This sets him apart from Snape, who may exercise self-restraint with most
> of his designs against Harry, but who doesn't seem to pass up very many
> opportunities to land a blow on Harry if he thinks he can get away with
> it.

> Livia
Response 2 Comments
  1. <>This is obviously a troll. The second sentence is an ad hominem attack — a comment on the person who made the comment and on the list readers.  At HPfGU, you are allowed to address only the arguments, not the people who make them. This post would be rejected if it were moderated or Howlered if not.
  2. Not only is the troll rude, he didn't sign his post, he quoted the previous post in its entirety, and he put the quotage last.  Bad listie.
Response 3
From: "strangerdanger11011" <agent004@y...>
Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004  9:16 pm
Subject: Harry's Sympathy for Snape

Le Miz:
In the first chapter of OoP, in fact, Harry gets a real kick out of goading Dudley, who he knows won't retaliate while Harry's got his wand.


OMG! I can't *wait* to see Dan do this scene. He's done a little anger in PoA, but he really gets to go crazy in OoP. Squeeee!

strangerdanger
Response 3 Comments

This post comments not on canon but on the movies; specifically, on Daniel Radcliffe's acting abilities. The post belongs on HPfGU-Movie.
Response 4
From: "k3nny" <morefriendsplease@a...>
Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004  11:02 pm
Subject: Re: Harry's Sympathy for Snape

> --Le Miz, who doesn't add a tag line unless she can think of something
> clever to say

Will the list elves please make a policy prohibiting these tiresome tag lines? They're a bit twee, don't you think?

Kenny
Response 4 Comments

This post addresses list policy rather than makes a canon point and therefore belongs on HPfGU-Feedback. This comment would be inappropriate even if it were included in a longer, canon-based post.
Response 5
From: "scurvy_cur99" <cranderson@y...>
Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004  11:02 pm
Subject: Re: Harry's Sympathy for Snape

--- In HPforGrownups@yahoogroups.com, le miz <les_miserables77@x...> wrote:
> Why didn't he cheer on his idolized Father, beloved Sirius, and admired
> Lupin?

I just wrote a fic called "Snape's Worst Memory" that shows what happened both before and after the Pensieve scene in OoP. You can find it at hpfix.org.

scurvy cur
Response 5 Comments

If you want to announce a fic, you may do so on HPfGU-Announcements, on HPfGU-OTChatter, or add it to your sig on a canon-based post.  If you want to discuss a fic, you should do it on the site that hosts the fic or some other forum. Because there are so many sites dedicated to publishing and commenting on fanfic, we figure there's no need for it on HPfGU.
Response 5 Corrected
From: "scurvy_cur99" <cranderson@y...>
Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004  11:02 pm
Subject: Re: Harry's Sympathy for Snape (FF)

--- In HPforGrownups@yahoogroups.com, le miz <les_miserables77@x...> wrote:
> Why didn't he cheer on his idolized Father, beloved Sirius, and admired
> Lupin?

I wrote a fic called "Snape's Worst Memory" that shows what happened both before and after the Pensieve scene in OoP. It speculates that Snape had picked on Lupin since before Hogwarts, and that's why he hesitates to stop Sirius and James from picking on Snape.

I believe that Snape and Lupin had a history before Hogwarts because we know Lupin's parents were wizards, and Snape wouldn't have been in Slytherin if he weren't pureblood or at least close to it. You can also see past tensions between the two of them in the scene where Snape brings Lupin his potion...

[continue canon-supported argument]

scurvy cur
find "Snape's Worst Memory" at www.hpfix.org

You may use fanfic as the jumping-off point for speculative theory only if you don't use the fic as evidence to support your argument. In this example, the fic is mentioned, but canon supports the argument.  (It doesn't matter if the canon support seems flimsy to some.) If Scurvy Cur had used examples from the fic to demonstrate the soundness of his theory, the post would no longer be appropriate for HPforGrownups.

Because fanfic is mentioned, the subject line must contain the "FF" prefix.
Response 6
From: "carolinabelle" <lauren.a.foundling@u...>
Date: Wed Jun 9, 2004  03:47 am
Subject: SHIP: Draco/Harry (WAS: Harry's Sympathy for Snape) [1]

Le Miz:
What led Harry to identify with the victim instead of the torturer when Harry himself isn't above cutting a bully down to his own size? (Remember the final train scenes of GoF and OoP with Draco et al.)


Harry's exercise of power over Draco in these two scenes demonstrates something interesting in the Draco/Harry dynamic. Some see homoerotic [2] overtones in Draco's fascination with Harry, so it might just be that Draco desperately wants Harry to overpower him, just as he did on the train...

[continues discussion of dominant/submissive sexual dynamics, using canon evidence as support] [3]

Carolina Belle

  1. Because this post speculates about romantic attachments, the "SHIP" prefix is required in the subject line (from relationSHIP, also called "shipping").
  2. Slash (same-sex) pairings are bound to generate a brand of controversy that HPfGU would rather not have on list: discussions of whether same-sex romance is moral or not. Please note that HP does not in any way address the topic of sexual morality — straight or gay — so you cannot use canon to support either side of that argument. Furthermore, emotions run so high on this topic that it's very difficult for such a discussion to progress without it becoming ugly. Therefore, you should use extreme caution when broaching the topic; if it gets out of hand, the List Elves will stop the thread. See Hot-Button Topics for more details.
  3. Discussing sexuality on HPfGU — especially the, er, "specialized" practice thereof — must be done with exceptional sensitivity. We don't use the term "grown up" as a euphemism for "pornography." Vulgarity, pornography, and crude discussions of sexuality belong in the locker room, not on HPfGU. That said, sexuality is a valid subject for discussion as long as it's done with the kind of maturity that eludes the average 17-year-old boy.
Response 7
From: "human_stain_rox" <the_human_stain2003@y...>
Date: Wed Jun 9, 2004  00:32 am
Subject: TBAY: Harry's Sympathy for Snape [1]

[2]The Human Stain languishes on the beachhead of Theory Bay, letting the waves lap the edges of his toxic puddle. Seeing a bottle floating ashore, he wraps his slimy stain around the bottle and hoists it from the water. It's got a note inside, so he dashes the bottle against a rock and unrolls the note.

"You'd think that he'd be delighted to see his father, the hero, doing to Snape what Harry's wanted to do for so many years -- and probably doing it better than Harry could at this point -- but instead, he identifies with *Snape*."

The note was signed "Le Miz." The Human Stain contemplates this for a moment, turns the note over, and scrawls a response:

"Harry's psychological resilience is in evidence here: by all rights, he should be a hardened, embittered little punk with no sympathy for anyone at all. Some people, upon seeing Snape's worst memory, would have no trouble cheering for Snape's tormentors because they would see Snape as enemy only.

"Harry, to his credit, is able to see Snape as a real person with feelings similar to his own. It is for this reason that he can recognize the pain and humiliation that Snape must be feeling, and he allows that pain to trump his resentments toward Snape. This is a *choice* that Harry makes, BTW, even if he's not conscious of it.

"Not only that, Harry's moral compass points true no matter who is involved: he sees clearly the difference between aggressor and victim without letting his personal feelings for the individuals involved get in the way.

"Pity Snape can't do the same for Harry."

The Human Stain realizes that he's been dumb enough to destroy the bottle he meant to use for the return trip, so he combs the beach for other suitable detritus: a plastic yogurt container, lid nearby, will do the job.  He rinses out the container, stuffs the note back inside, and tosses it as far from shore as possible.

--The Human Stain, who would like to coin B.R.O.K.E.N. B.O.T.T.L.E. (Boy Realizes Other Kinds Endure Nasty Badness; Observes, Tries To Learn Empathy.)[3]
Response 7 Comments

  1. This post is done in the "Theory Bay" style (though frankly it's a lame TBAY post), and therefore requires the TBAY prefix.
  2. To learn more about TBAY, please see Hypothetic Alley, which shows what was happening in TBAY's heyday (2002). Basically, to do a TBAY post, you must:
    • Refer to yourself in the third person
    • Set the post in a fictional space, preferably Theory Bay and its environs
    • Attach metaphorical or allegorical significance to the setting
    • Make a canon point (we cannot overemphasize this requirement)
    • Make it clear who says what
    • Not write fanfic; the story must be about canon analysis
    • Not get carried away with the story elements (if the urge persists, write fanfic instead)
  3. You may coin acronyms for your theories in TBAY and regular, essay-type posts. Consult Inish Alley for a list of past acronyms.
  4. When responding to a TBAY post, you may respond either in TBAY style or using essay style.
Response 8
From: "JC Pinnock" <45jcp54@h...>
Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004  5:21 pm
Subject: Re: Harry Torturing Snape (WAS: Harry's Sympathy for Snape)

Livia:
> This sets him apart from Snape, who may exercise self-restraint with most
> of his designs against Harry, but who doesn't seem to pass up very many
> opportunities to land a blow on Harry if he thinks he can get away with
> it.
[1]
your [2] a fool [3] if you thnk you can figure out what snape thinks just because you dont like snape doesnt meen you can take cheep shots at him

snape is not the bad persone you think he is [3] and i dare you to show me where he has horrible thoughts about harry that he doesnt do

rabidsnapefan
Response 8 Comments

  1. This post does not make a canon point; it's more like a rant.
  2. This post has not been proofread: there are multiple spelling errors, punctuation is missing, and there is no capitalization. Remember that we have list members who don't speak English as a first language, who have dyslexia or similar disorders, or who use text readers for the visually impaired. These types of errors make it difficult, if not impossible, to understand what's being said. However, if you find it difficult to write clearly in English, please consult the Help Desk, which will help you edit your comments before posting them.
  3. There are two ad hominem outbursts in this post: one direct and one indirect. In the second, rabidsnapefan ironically attributes thoughts to Livia that he cannot know. If you really must deliver a canon-free retort, please send such things off-list, to the individual. However, if you're going to be snarky or angry, we ask that you refrain from sending anything at all.
Response 8 Corrected
From: "JC Pinnock" <45jcp54@h...>
Date: Tue Jun 8, 2004  5:21 pm
Subject: Re: Harry Torturing Snape (WAS: Harry's Sympathy for Snape)

Livia:
> This sets him apart from Snape, who may exercise self-restraint with most
> of his designs against Harry, but who doesn't seem to pass up very many
> opportunities to land a blow on Harry if he thinks he can get away with
> it.

We really can't know what Snape thinks, partly because he's a skilled Occlumens (hee!) but mostly because the narrator doesn't enter into Snape's head the way it does into Harry's.

All we have are Harry's speculations about what Snape might be thinking, and we know that Harry is not exactly unbiased in his interpretations. He's read him wrong way too often, though I reckon in CoS where it says that "Snape was looking as though the first person to ask him for a Love Potion would be force-fed poison," it was right on the money. :-)

rabidsnapefan