[HPFGU-Feedback] Re: Thoughts on exclusion and culture

[Heidi Tandy]

On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 9:23am, Haggridd wrote:

>  How did TBAY
> become a feature of the main list in the first place?  I wasn't
> there, but I seriously doubt some admin type proclaimed "Let there
> be TBAY!" and TBAY sprang forth fully formed from his/her brow...

Actually, yeah, that's vaguely what happened. I've been traveling, then 
sick in bed, for pretty much all of the past three weeks, and this is my 
first chance to do the cut&paste post on this topic that I've wanted to 
do for some time.

But first, a brief history of tbay by someone who's been aware of it 
since it started, although I neither read the posts nor post in the 
format because of reasons similar to those cited by others here - 
largely it's because I find it impenetrable, and that's entirely for the 
reason that I do most of my list-participation on handheld email devices 
(first a blackberry, now a sidekick) from which I cannot access HA or 
back-posts for a handy reference guide while reading whatever current 
post there is.

But that being what it is, I also know how Tbay got started, and it got 
started because it was generated by two of the list's elves - Cindy and 
Tabouli - back in the late winter of 2002, because in the seven or so 
months that Tabouli had been on the list, she thought we'd discussed 
everything to death and needed some more creative theories, or something 
like that.

Of course, imho, the list had long encouraged the discussion of creative 
theorizing outside roleplaying style, but when the posting style was 
questioned by a confused newbie, it was then discussed on the MEG list, 
and Cindy and Tabouli convinced enough of the MEGs that the decision of 
January 2001 to ban roleplaying should be reversed (although fanfic 
remained a banned topic for almost an entire year more).

TBAY, as a prefix, name, even location (iirc) didn't exist until it 
started being disucssed as a problem on the MEG list. And I've giggled 
at a few mentions of old-timers on hpfgu playing in the bay; since I 
define old-timers here as anyone who (a) had to wait for the release of 
book 4 and (b) joined hpfgu either before we left the yahooclub for 
egroups, or within a month of it at least, I think perhaps three or four 
such people actively participate in tbay. It's more the 'middlers' - 
those who came onlist after the 2001 Great Ship Debates and the creation 
of OTC - who have played in the bay, I think.

TBAY started about a year after the otc spinoff, and also, about a year 
after discussion of fanfic was banned on the main list.

Now, weirdly enough, we avid fanficcers didn't raise a tremendous 
protest about removing fanfic discussion at the time it was banned; we 
started talking about creating an hp-specific place to put fanfics and 
have discussions that could meander from canon to movie to fanfic and 
back again - and in the summer of 2001, we created that place in 
FictionAlley.org.

But when tbay started, it seemed to me, and others, a little unbalanced 
that tbay-style posts were permissible, but talk of fanfic was not.

Now, for some historical context, here's a bit of an old post I did on 
the subject on MEG:

> I don't want the members of Theory Bay to feel unwelcome on the Main
> List, and I am sypmathetic to how you guys probably feel, reading
> posts that say that we think your posts are not completely on topic,
> but but part of me is saying in an admittedly sulky and childish
> way, "Why do you get to have your fun but I don't?"
>
> Why do you get to roleplay from bow to stern, but I don't get to cite
> to Gwen's fanfic as possible explanations for why I think Snape had a
> miserable and likely somewhat abusive childhood, and that might
> explain the lack of interest he has in his appearance? Why can't I
> use Ebony's fanfic as an example of the list of problems a
> Ron/Hermione marriage *could* have? Why can't I use Cassie's Draco
> Veritas to show that there are some things, like Lucius being
> completely fine with Voldemort killing Draco, which might be enough
> to make Draco turn against the dark side and the Dark Lord?
>
> Why is one thing not ok, and the other is? Perhaps those of us with a
> longer time on this Mods list (I've been here longer than most of the
> Mods have) have a bit more information in hand as to which things
> have been stamped out in the past over protests from some listies and
> some elves (Gwen knows a lot of this because she heard me babble
> about it last spring and in the summer when we were starting
> FictionAlley).
>
> I don't want a splinter list, I don't want more "rules" for the
> newbies or ordinary listies. And while I don't want to take away your
> fun...well... about a year ago, this list decided to take away a
> smidge of mine - the discussion of fanfic on the main list - and you
> know what? I still posted my theories, I still posted my arguments -
> I just wrote them in a factual manner instead of in prose, and while
> I may've missed that spark (clearly I did and do, otherwise this
> wouldn't be such a thing for me) and while I think there was a
> negative side effect that in banning discussion of fanfic from the
> main list, there have been many fewer new "grownup" writers who
> *might have* become interested in fanfic (like Penny and me and I
> think Barb) because people were discussing it on the main list, I was
> willing to go with the majority decision and still remain an active
> participant on the list.
>
[Edited out someone else's words about five or dix playful speculations 
a week from three or four people, as they're not mine to forward]

>  ... they're the type of roleplaying and "fanfic" discussion
> that was declared off topic on the main list over a year ago. Here's
> an example of a post from Ebony
> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/13663) which was
> deemed offtopic:
>
> <<The real SS H/H (clarification: the one on which Hedwig is just
> Harry's courier pet and *nothing more*) appears in the distance.
>
> It is being trailed by the Good Ship R/H... a self-destructing VIP
> message has fallen into the hands of a certain vacationing Special
> Agent... all other ranking H/H officers are otherwise occupied around
> the HP Fan World, as active H/Hers tend to be busy types.
>
> On a nearby tropical island, Agent Ebony waves off the handsome
> Jamaican wizard-masseuse and sets her margarita on the beach blanket
> with a sigh. "Call that a holiday? I thought they were *done* with
> main-list shipping until the schoolbooks come out!" Sighing, she
> tosses aside the message before it explodes, zips up her wetsuit, and
> dives back into the choppy waters of the Shipping Seas.>>
>
>
> If it was off topic a year ago, then absent a discussion on it now,
> it should probably *still* be deemed off topic. And in posts like
> Eb's the role playing was a bit more discrete than it has been in
> recent weeks.
>
> So what am I saying here? No acronyms? No, I'm not saying that.
> No "wild" theories? No, I'm not saying that - if I was, I couldn't
> even consider posting my theory that the PutOuter called that because
> it came from the colonies back in the 1500's, when potatoes were
> first introduced in europe and the original models looked the same as
> a tuber.
>

Now, every time I've made requests & recommendations about tbay in the 
past, I've gotten people angry at me, so you'd think I'd learn my 
lesson.

I mean, I once suggested a moratorium on tbay for 4-6 weeks after ootp 
and was accused of trying to ban tbay. La, no.

But I haven't learned my lesson, so here goes:

I think that while tbay has built a place on the list because of the 
presence of strong tbayers among the admin team,  and that place should 
not be negated at this point, those who write long tbay pieces (say, 
over 70 kb) should take a page (pun intended) from those who write long 
fanfic chapters and either upload them to the files section on the main 
list or a separate yahoogroup created just for tbay-archival purposes, 
or spread the posting out over a few days' time. And I suggest this 
because in the past, long tbays have crashed my mail program, most 
notably Elkins' Crouch 9-parter, which made it impossible for me to get 
any mail until I'd deleted it. Shorter works could and should be posted 
as per usual, but it might be a saving grace for those like me who enjoy 
getting posts via email but can't necessarily handle a 400-kb single 
post.

And on that note, I'll duck out of the discussion again.