Ad hominem attacks (was Possible Change to the Main List Settings)

[Amy Z]

Tom wrote [brackets added by Amy Z for clarification]:

> That other member [Gwen] didn't allow her onlist behavior to 
devolve. And 
> the author of post #277 [Joywitch] did.

Well, Joywitch's was a stupendous case of devolution, that's for 
sure, but Gwen's (#251) was not up to a very high standard of 
evolution.  IMO, her tone throughout was very snide, and this 
passage in particular was extremely rude:

"I'm saying that TBAY was preserved because moderators on the 
mod team wanted it to stick around, and because they defended 
it maniacally, almost to the point of hysteria, when it was 
attacked. It seemed to me that the more logical our arguments 
against it became, in fact, the more emphatically those 
moderators insisted that TBAY was the be-all and end-all of 
posting."

One can disagree on what transpired in that first heated 
conversation on the Admin list (I was there and view it quite 
differently than Gwen does), but to refer to one's opponents in an 
argument as maniacal and almost hysterical is an ad hominem 
attack.  And characterizing them as taking an extreme position 
such as "insist[ing] that TBAY was the be-all and end-all of 
posting" is a classic straw-man setup:  make your opponents 
sound like foaming-at-the-mouth maniacs, when in fact most of 
them, most of the time, are simply arguing that the posting style 
in question is legitimate and enjoyable.  Not the standard of 
debate I would hope for here, any more than I wanted it to be on 
the Admin list when I was there.

FWIW, I think both posts 251 and 277 should've resulted in 
Howlers at least (though Gwen and Joywitch are both notoriously 
impervious to them).  I am loath to see any post deleted unless 
it's really necessary--just my packrat's desire to hang onto every 
scrap of history--but if Gwen wishes for 277 to be deleted 
because it is embarrassing to her, or any of the people attacked 
by Gwen in 251 wish for it to be deleted because it is 
embarrassing to them, I hope the Admin team would seriously 
consider removing these posts, since both are (again IMO) over 
the line.  Those of us who want to keep one or both for framing, 
therefore, might want to act quickly.

Oh, and thanks for clarifying which post you were referring to, 
Tom.  I thought #277 must've been the one . . . it was rather, ah, 
memorable.  I still don't get the connection to Talisman's post, 
which, again, was in defense of that much-maligned class of 
people, Lawyers.  Gwen is an actress.  Joywitch is a 
curmudgeon.  Neither one is a lawyer, and any insults aimed at 
them will therefore have to be couched in different terms than 
lawyer jokes.

I think the worry that you would get into trouble with the Admin 
simply for expressing the opinion that a post on here breaks the 
rules and ought to be deleted is ungrounded.  I can't recall 
knowing any member of the Admin team to be punitive about any 
such thing, and frankly I think your suggestion that they would be 
comes dangerously close to an ad hominem attack itself--as 
does the suggestion that they reward those who agree with them 
with Elfhood.  The latter doesn't even make any sense, since the 
Elves are seldom unanimous on policy matters themselves, so 
if they wanted to give out goodies to those who agreed with one 
Elf, they would be rewarding people who disagreed with another 
Elf.

For that matter, IMO, your snideness about Iggy's opinion that the 
Admin team does a pretty good job is coming uncomfortably 
close to an accusation of brown-nosing.  What most bothers me 
about it is that it is very difficult to have a constructive 
conversation if simple praise for someone's POV is 
automatically interpreted as brown-nosing, troublemaking, or 
what have you.  I would hope we could grant one another the 
assumption that when we state an opinion it is because we 
actually hold that opinion.

(And honestly, who could give a crap?  Sure, it's nice to be invited 
to be on the Admin team, but who on earth cares about it enough 
to kiss up?  It's not like the job pays big bucks, or even earns one 
a heck of a lot of respect.)

Amy Z