From talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid Thu Mar 29 12:14:20 2007 From: talisman22457 at talisman22457.yahoo.invalid (Talisman) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 12:14:20 -0000 Subject: Admin: Technical Difficulties Message-ID: Per Penapart Elf's recent message on main, I confess I WAS deleting multiples of my own messages, as I saw them. Thought I was being helpful, really. I deleted several last night and one this morning, before seeing the message asking that we leave it to the Elves. Hopefully this information will assist the Elves in *not* deleting my orignals. Thanks, Talisman From susiequsie23 at cubfanbudwoman.yahoo.invalid Thu Mar 29 12:30:35 2007 From: susiequsie23 at cubfanbudwoman.yahoo.invalid (susiequsie23 at cubfanbudwoman.yahoo.invalid) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 05:30:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPFGU-Feedback] Re: Admin: Technical Difficulties Message-ID: <844193.5803.qm@...> Talisman: Per Penapart Elf's recent message on main, I confess I WAS deleting multiples of my own messages, as I saw them. Thought I was being helpful, really. I deleted several last night and one this morning, before seeing the message asking that we leave it to the Elves. Hopefully this information will assist the Elves in *not* deleting my orignals. Shorty Elf (SSSusan): I don't think that's a problem at all, Talisman; you *were* being helpful. We just decided after talking it over that it might be smoother if we told folks to leave it to the elves out of fear that if both elves *and* listees were busy deleting, we might end up accidentally deleting ALL copies of a post. Thanks for letting us know. Shorty Elf From n2fgc at lee_storm.yahoo.invalid Thu Mar 29 16:11:15 2007 From: n2fgc at lee_storm.yahoo.invalid (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God is the Healing Force) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 12:11:15 -0400 Subject: [HPFGU-Feedback] Re: Admin: Technical Difficulties In-Reply-To: <844193.5803.qm@...> References: <844193.5803.qm@...> Message-ID: <001901c7721c$e116ff60$66a4a8c0@rosie> Hi, I gather this is about Yahoo burping it's little heart out? :-) Yes, I, too, have been receiving an avalanche of messages from two specific authors on HPOTChatter. I think it's about 10 from each at this point and they just keep appearing in my Outlook inbox. Good luck! List burping is not fun to solve on a private server; I'm sure it's double miserable on something like Yahoo. Cheers and Butterbeers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at ... (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at ... Walk beside me, and be my friend. From loopyzu at loopyzu.yahoo.invalid Tue Apr 24 15:41:06 2007 From: loopyzu at loopyzu.yahoo.invalid (loretta) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 11:41:06 -0400 Subject: book black out Message-ID: <003f01c78686$f9b88e70$e46d4845@computer> I am thankful to the moderators that they would guard us a few days from spoilers. I hope that a week after the sale of the book would be a long enough. given that fast readers will finish quicker, It gives the rest of us a little time. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From janetaba at janetaba.yahoo.invalid Tue Apr 24 16:03:09 2007 From: janetaba at janetaba.yahoo.invalid (janetaba) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 16:03:09 -0000 Subject: Reply to question on HPforGrownups list Message-ID: >What we do not yet know is when you, the listmembers, will want the >list open. When >will you finish reading DH? Do you want the list to reopen at the >earliest possible time, or do you want a little more time to >contemplate? Is it important that the list reopen at a day and hour >when you might be able to read and post? What day and hour would >that be? >Please let us know your thoughts over on our Feedback list, which >can be found at: >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Feedback/ >Do Not Reply To This Message on this list or you will be requested to >iron your hands! >The List Elves Well, just joined this list so that I could comment on the upcoming question as to how long to close the list in reference to the upcoming release of HP & the Deathly Hallows. My thoughts are that since we are all adults, why would we need to close the list in the first place? I'm adult enough to know that I have the option of reading the emails or not. Most likely, I'll be reading Deathly Hallows and not my email during that time anyway, and would love to converse with anyone else that is finished reading the book. Just my two cents! Janet Tabares From lunalovegood at lunalovegoodrules.yahoo.invalid Tue Apr 24 17:29:30 2007 From: lunalovegood at lunalovegoodrules.yahoo.invalid (lunalovegoodrules) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 17:29:30 -0000 Subject: book black out In-Reply-To: <003f01c78686$f9b88e70$e46d4845@computer> Message-ID: loretta wrote: > I am thankful to the moderators that they would guard us a few days from spoilers. I hope that a week after the sale of the book would be a long enough. given that fast readers will finish quicker, It gives the rest of us a little time. I've always thought, and I still do, that having a spoiler policy on the any of the HPfGU and related lists is just plain dumb, for reasons that are obvious. Why would anyone put the book down to read the list, when the new book is out, for any reason BUT spoilers? dan From PenapartElf at penapart_elf.yahoo.invalid Tue Apr 24 17:34:07 2007 From: PenapartElf at penapart_elf.yahoo.invalid (PenapartElf at penapart_elf.yahoo.invalid) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 13:34:07 EDT Subject: ADMIN: Feedback Wanted re List Closure for DH Release Message-ID: Hi All, Welcome to Feedback - thanks for dropping by! I've copied below the original admin soliciting your feedback for your reference ease. If you wish to discuss specific times, please remember to tell us what time zone you are in or better yet, give it to us in British Summer Time (BST). Here's a great time converter that you can use: http://www.timezoneconverter.com :) Penapart Elf ------------ Main#167902 From: "hpfgu_elves" Date: Tue Apr 24, 2007 3:51 am Subject: ADMIN: Feedback Wanted re List Closure for DH Release With DH arriving only three short months from now, the List Elves have been revisiting our decisions for prior book releases. We welcome listmember input on all aspects of how we can best serve the list in the first frantic days after July 21, but we particularly solicit comments how long the Main list (HPforGrownups) should be closed for elves and listmembers alike to read the Deathly Hallows. (We expect that HPFGU-OTChatter will be open, but it will probably be a spoiler-free zone.) The Main list will be closed on Saturday, July 21. What we have not decided for certain is when the list will reopen. In 2003, the list was closed 45 hours, until 9 p.m. British Summer Time (BST) Sunday. This turned out to be inadequate for the elves to read and digest OOP before getting back to work. In 2005, the list was closed for 85 hours, until 1 p.m. BST Tuesday, a time that was selected with an eye to both giving the elves enough time to read the book and to choose a time when the maximum number of members in all time zones would be awake. We have polled the elves and determined that the earliest we could reopen would be Monday, July 23, around midday BST. This translates to early morning in the U.S. and roughly 10 PM Australian East Coast time. Before then there will be an insufficient number of elves available for duty. What we do not yet know is when you, the listmembers, will want the list open. When will you finish reading DH? Do you want the list to reopen at the earliest possible time, or do you want a little more time to contemplate? Is it important that the list reopen at a day and hour when you might be able to read and post? What day and hour would that be? Please let us know your thoughts over on our Feedback list, which can be found at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Feedback/ Do Not Reply To This Message on this list or you will be requested to iron your hands! The List Elves ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. From susiequsie23 at cubfanbudwoman.yahoo.invalid Tue Apr 24 17:40:48 2007 From: susiequsie23 at cubfanbudwoman.yahoo.invalid (susiequsie23 at cubfanbudwoman.yahoo.invalid) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 10:40:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPFGU-Feedback] Reply to question on HPforGrownups list Message-ID: <771672.33839.qm@...> >From the ADMIN at Main: >What we do not yet know is when you, the listmembers, will want the >list open. When >will you finish reading DH? Do you want the list to reopen at the >earliest possible time, or do you want a little more time to >contemplate? Is it important that the list reopen at a day and hour >when you might be able to read and post? What day and hour would >that be? >Please let us know your thoughts over on our Feedback list, which >can be found at: >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Feedback/ >Do Not Reply To This Message on this list or you will be requested to >iron your hands! >The List Elves Janet: >>> My thoughts are that since we are all adults, why would we need to close the list in the first place? I'm adult enough to know that I have the option of reading the emails or not. Most likely, I'll be reading Deathly Hallows and not my email during that time anyway, and would love to converse with anyone else that is finished reading the book. Just my two cents! <<< SSSusan/Shorty Elf: I don't think there's really any question of adults being able to choose whether to read emails or not; hopefully we all know how to stay away from the computer if we're afraid of spoilers. Though that HP obsession just... might... draw me in... against... my will! ACK!!! Hee. Just kidding. Seriously, I *do* know what you mean. :) One of the issues, though, is that the list elves have various duties to perform at HPfGU, and that includes things such as listreading (reading every post for a particular day or time period, to watch for problems) and, very significantly, handling pending messages from newbies, who are each moderated for a time period. The elves themselves need an opportunity to read the book before taking on these tasks. So that is why there will be a period of list shutdown. As the Admin stated, we're just not yet sure how long that period will be. Not sure how to sign this, since I made comments I'd make both as a listee and as an elf, Shorty Elf and Siriusly Snapey Susan From PenapartElf at penapart_elf.yahoo.invalid Tue Apr 24 18:04:51 2007 From: PenapartElf at penapart_elf.yahoo.invalid (Petra) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 11:04:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: book black out Message-ID: <823224.7248.qm@...> "loretta" wrote: > I am thankful to the moderators that they would guard us a few > days from spoilers. Petra: Just so we're all on the same page, the closure of the list is not about spoilers. :) That would be a separate though related issue. Of course, while the list is closed, the list members cannot get spoiled: there will be no posting at all, spoilers or otherwise. The closure would allow all of us a certain amount of time during which we can read without the nagging concern of just how many posts have piled up at Main during our absence. Our discussions surely would benefit from our reading the books more thoroughly. Closure would also give the moderators a fighting chance to finish the book before going back on duty. The alternative is to force spoilers on the list elves who haven't finished yet but whose presence is needed at the front lines. "loretta" wrote: > I hope that a week after the sale of the > book would be a long enough. given that fast readers will > finish quicker, It gives the rest of us a little time. Petra: If your preference is for the list to close for a week, we have the same personal preference. This is the last one and if I had my druthers, I'd linger and savor every bit. dan: > I've always thought, and I still do, that having a spoiler policy on > the any of the HPfGU and related lists is just plain dumb, for reasons > that are obvious. Why would anyone put the book down to read the list, > when the new book is out, for any reason BUT spoilers? Petra: Agreed. This is probably a big reason behind going with RAYOR (Read At You Own Risk) once we re-opened for HBP. Petra a n :) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From n2fgc at lee_storm.yahoo.invalid Tue Apr 24 18:28:07 2007 From: n2fgc at lee_storm.yahoo.invalid (Mrs. Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force)) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 14:28:07 -0400 Subject: [HPFGU-Feedback] Reply to question on HPforGrownups list In-Reply-To: <771672.33839.qm@...> References: <771672.33839.qm@...> Message-ID: <000001c7869e$4e59a100$66a4a8c0@rosie> Hi, I can certainly understand the need to close the list for a time to give the elves reading and breathing space. I know that if Amazon messes up this year like they did last year, I won't receive my "pre-order" until a few days after release. Last book, it was a week after the release that I got my audiobook, and was chomping at the bit wondering if I should have gotten from Barnes & Noble on the release date. But we who make up the retiree ranks try to save money so, again, I pre-ordered. However, I would say that, since seven is the magical number and all that, maybe the time should be seven days, for the seventh book, for the seven magical number. :-) Cheers, Lee :-) From willsonkmom at potioncat.yahoo.invalid Tue Apr 24 18:52:06 2007 From: willsonkmom at potioncat.yahoo.invalid (potioncat) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 18:52:06 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: Feedback Wanted re List Closure for DH Release In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ADMIN wrote: > What we do not yet know is when you, the listmembers, will want the > list open. When will you finish reading DH? Do you want the list to > reopen at the earliest possible time, or do you want a little more > time to contemplate? Is it important that the list reopen at a day > and hour when you might be able to read and post? What day and > hour would that be? Potioncat: Thanks for asking. I want the list to re-open about 2 hours after I finish reading the book. That should give me time to write my first post. I think the list-elves need to go back to T-Bay and reconvene at the George--you know, in the smoke-filled back room?--and decide. Not, how much time do you *need*, but how much time do you *want*? It's the last book darn-it. You deserve to enjoy it too. Make your decision and let us know when you'll open. Just to be fair about it, you could offer to return the hefty membership dues to anyone who is really unhappy with your decision. Potioncat, who would like to thank the nice folks at the Harry Potter Rehab Center for allowing her to read and post today. From janetaba at janetaba.yahoo.invalid Tue Apr 24 17:47:45 2007 From: janetaba at janetaba.yahoo.invalid (Janet Tabares) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 12:47:45 -0500 Subject: [HPFGU-Feedback] Reply to question on HPforGrownups list In-Reply-To: <771672.33839.qm@...> Message-ID: Janet: >>> My thoughts are that since we are all adults, why would we need to close the list in the first place? I'm adult enough to know that I have the option of reading the emails or not. Most likely, I'll be reading Deathly Hallows and not my email during that time anyway, and would love to converse with anyone else that is finished reading the book. Just my two cents! <<< SSSusan/Shorty Elf: I don't think there's really any question of adults being able to choose whether to read emails or not; hopefully we all know how to stay away from the computer if we're afraid of spoilers. Though that HP obsession just... might... draw me in... against... my will! ACK!!! Hee. Just kidding. Seriously, I *do* know what you mean. :) One of the issues, though, is that the list elves have various duties to perform at HPfGU, and that includes things such as listreading (reading every post for a particular day or time period, to watch for problems) and, very significantly, handling pending messages from newbies, who are each moderated for a time period. The elves themselves need an opportunity to read the book before taking on these tasks. So that is why there will be a period of list shutdown. As the Admin stated, we're just not yet sure how long that period will be. Not sure how to sign this, since I made comments I'd make both as a listee and as an elf, Shorty Elf and Siriusly Snapey Susan Would it be out of line to perhaps have a list where such discussions could occur? I'd be willing to take it on if necessary, the stipulation being that spoilers are the main topic at the time of the book release. Just an idea. Janet From justcarol67 at justcarol67.yahoo.invalid Tue Apr 24 19:17:27 2007 From: justcarol67 at justcarol67.yahoo.invalid (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 19:17:27 -0000 Subject: Reply to question on HPforGrownups list In-Reply-To: <000001c7869e$4e59a100$66a4a8c0@rosie> Message-ID: Lee wrote: > I can certainly understand the need to close the list for a time to give the elves reading and breathing space. > > I know that if Amazon messes up this year like they did last year, I won't receive my "pre-order" until a few days after release. Last book, it was a week after the release that I got my audiobook, and was chomping at the bit wondering if I should have gotten from Barnes & Noble on the release date. > But we who make up the retiree ranks try to save money so, again, I pre-ordered. > > However, I would say that, since seven is the magical number and all that, maybe the time should be seven days, for the seventh book, for the seven magical number. :-) Carol responds: Since the policy is chiefly for the benefit of the List Elves, I'm not quite sure why we ordinary list members are being asked to respond. However, since I joined this list specifically to comment on this question, I'll add my two cents, anyway. I live in Tucson, Arizona, which is seven hours later that GMT in summer; I think that would make it eight hours later than BST. In addition, I'm highly unlikely to wait in line at midnight to pick up my book, which means that I'll have to wait until the Borders store opens on Saturday (9 a.m. my time, 5 p.m. BST) to pick it up. Whether I can devour the whole book in one weekend depends on circumstances that are impossible to predict at the moment. I'm guessing that I'll need at least till Wednesday and possibly till the following Saturday. If the list isn't open yet, I can always start a second reading or reread my favorite parts while I'm waiting. So, yes, I think a week would be good. Any longer than that, and impatient readers with time on their hands will be chafing at the bit; any less time and those of us who need a week to read the books will be deluged with posts by the time we're ready to post ourselves. Carol, wondering how many hours it takes the average person to read (not skim or speed-read) a 700-page book and also whether anyone knows the word count From tonks_op at tonks_op.yahoo.invalid Tue Apr 24 19:59:25 2007 From: tonks_op at tonks_op.yahoo.invalid (Tonks) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 19:59:25 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: Feedback Wanted re List Closure for DH Release In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > ADMIN wrote: > > What we do not yet know is when you, the listmembers, will want the list open. When will you finish reading DH? Do you want the list to reopen at the earliest possible time, or do you want a little more time to contemplate? Is it important that the list reopen at a day and hour when you might be able to read and post? What day and hour would that be? Tonks: First the list elfs do need time to read and rest before the list reopens. And the list should be closed for a period of time. For those who are addicted it would be crazy trying to read and worry about what you are missing on the list. So there must be a reasonable period of closure. A clock time when everyone is able to post is a good idea. I will let those who know time zones better than I work that out. As to reading the book. Some of us take days off of work or whatever to do it, other work and may not be able to have it read by Monday or Tuesday. And as someone said you want to enjoy it like a fine meal. Others may not get their book till late and we should give a bit of time for them too. I would guess that 5 to 7 days would be reasonable. There is a lot to be said for knowing that all of the other group members are participating in the same activity (reading) at the same time and that no one gets a jump on another. Those who finish early can spend some final quality time with their families or friends before they glue themselves to the computer for hours at a time. So all in all I say at least 5 days, with max of 7. Tonks_op From susiequsie23 at cubfanbudwoman.yahoo.invalid Tue Apr 24 20:08:24 2007 From: susiequsie23 at cubfanbudwoman.yahoo.invalid (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 20:08:24 -0000 Subject: book black out In-Reply-To: <823224.7248.qm@...> Message-ID: Potioncat said: > I think the list-elves need to go back to T-Bay and reconvene at the > George--you know, in the smoke-filled back room?--and decide. Not, > how much time do you *need*, but how much time do you *want*? It's > the last book darn-it. You deserve to enjoy it too. Make your > decision and let us know when you'll open. Shorty Elf says: Awww, that's sweet, 'cat! ;-) "loretta" wrote: > > I hope that a week after the sale of the book would be a long > > enough. given that fast readers will finish quicker, It gives > > the rest of us a little time. Petra: > If your preference is for the list to close for a week, we > have the same personal preference. This is the last > one and if I had my druthers, I'd linger and savor every > bit. Potioncat: > I want the list to re-open about 2 hours after I finish reading the > book. That should give me time to write my first post. Siriusly Snapey Susan says: This is why I think this Feedback discussion will prove fascinating -- we'll hear so many views. Already one can compare the two sides of the same coin: Side A: It's the last book -- I want to REALLY savor it and take my time with it! Side B: It's the last book -- this is my LAST TIME EVER to get to discuss the HPs, so I want to post as SOON as I'm done reading! :) I'm in U.S. EST zone and will get my hands on a copy shortly after its midnight release on 21 July. I'll probably be done reading late Sunday or early Monday, so I'd be ready to go again by Monday... or Tuesday for sure. I really do appreciate the A Side of the coin, though I personally fall a little closer to the flipside myself, or at least to wanting to have the forum available for those who're B-Siders. It's hard to know who'd be most frustrated by a decision that doesn't fit their preference: those who're bursting at the seams & chomping at the bit or those who don't want to be left in the dust by quick readers? Siriusly Snapey Susan From quigonginger at quigonginger.yahoo.invalid Tue Apr 24 20:24:30 2007 From: quigonginger at quigonginger.yahoo.invalid (quigonginger) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 20:24:30 -0000 Subject: Reply to question on HPforGrownups list In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Carol (snipped) wrote: > I live in Tucson, Arizona, which is seven hours later that GMT in > summer; I think that would make it eight hours later than BST. In > addition, I'm highly unlikely to wait in line at midnight to pick up > my book, which means that I'll have to wait until the Borders store > opens on Saturday (9 a.m. my time, 5 p.m. BST) to pick it up. Ginger: I'd like to add to what Carol said. I believe I'm about 1 hour earlier than she is, but the difference between the time we get our "midnight release" and the time the rest of the civilized world gets theirs is a matter of 7 or so hours. In other words, by the time I get back from B&N, the good folks of London have already read their book (or most of it) and are itching to post. If the list isn't closed, I'll be hundreds of posts behind by the time I get done reading. Of course, the Elves (and may I take this oppertunity to thank y'all) need the time to read it themselves. I would say that 5 days should be sufficient, but if the Elves want a week, they should be allowed that much. One other thought. Would it be possible to see if JKR is giving an interview soon after the release? Could we schedule the reopening of the list for after that time (assuming it is within a few days) and post a link to it? I remember the "why couldn't Harry see the thestrals?" incident after OoP, and posts kept coming in over and over asking that question after JKR had cleared it up in an interview. Of course, discussion of whether this was a valid reason on her part was appropriate, but it did get annoying to keep rereading that same question, and the repeated "adds nothing new" replies to it. We all want to post our thoughts after the book comes out, but many people just hop on and start typing without reading what has already been said. We can't require people to read before posting, but if there was a link, maybe they'd take a few minutes to look it up. I remember what the list traffic is like at book release time, and if we can conserve on repeats, it will make for more enjoyable list reading for all of us. Just my thoughts, Ginger From PenapartElf at penapart_elf.yahoo.invalid Tue Apr 24 20:51:11 2007 From: PenapartElf at penapart_elf.yahoo.invalid (PenapartElf at penapart_elf.yahoo.invalid) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 16:51:11 EDT Subject: from posts by Madeyesgal + "Lou Hunnebeck" Message-ID: Hi all, The following posts are being moved from the Main list since they belong here. :) Penapart Elf In Main#167909, From: "Kristen" Madeyesgal: Is is possible for grownups to wait until our elves are sufficiently prepared to monitor our group without our deciding just when that will be? I propose for our elves to determine just when they believe they will be ready to reopen the list and present the date to the group. If that date is determined to be unsuitable, then the group will have a genuine discussion topic. In Main#167910, From: "Lou Hunnebeck" I think that Monday is perfectly reasonable. We appreciate the work of the elves and it's my feeling that I can live with whatever is best for you. I know you will look out for our interests. ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. From zanelupin at zanelupin.yahoo.invalid Tue Apr 24 22:50:06 2007 From: zanelupin at zanelupin.yahoo.invalid (KathyK) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 22:50:06 -0000 Subject: Reply to question on HPforGrownups list In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Janet asked: > Would it be out of line to perhaps have a list where such discussions > could occur? I'd be willing to take it on if necessary, the > stipulation being that spoilers are the main topic at the time of the > book release. Just an idea. KathyK, posting quickly from work: For HBP we offered up Chat as a solution for those folks who finished early and wanted to get talking about the book ASAP. While we no longer have our Yahoo HPforGrownups chat, we do still hold a weekly chat at a site called Chatzy. Our room is here: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Put in whatever name you want use for yourself and enter hpfguchat as the password. We could use the chat again for those who wish to begin discussing DH before the list opens. Just throwin' it out there. How did this work out for those of you who chatted before Main re-opened? KathyK (aka Zaney Elf) From gav_fiji at gav_fiji.yahoo.invalid Wed Apr 25 01:14:32 2007 From: gav_fiji at gav_fiji.yahoo.invalid (Goddlefrood) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 01:14:32 -0000 Subject: Reply to question on HPforGrownups list In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Ginger > We all want to post our thoughts after the book comes out, but many people just hop on and start typing without reading what has already been said. We can't require people to read before posting, but if there was a link, maybe they'd take a few minutes to look it up. Goddlefrood: Purely as a list memebr, I have to enquire whether some do not do this at the best of times? My view re closure is that anyone who is not inclined to spoilers will stay away until ready. I know I will. Once I have read the book then and only then would I return to the fora. As I live in Fiji, which is GMT + 12 all year round, and sometimes access to new book releases is not great, then this may take only a few days, but then again it might take at least a week. Ultimately it should be whatever people are comfortable with, but the minimum closure period favoured would be a good starting point. In an ideal world I would be ready by first thing Monday morning after the release, so about 35 hours after the official BST midnight release in the UK. Goddlefrood From elfundeb at elfundeb2.yahoo.invalid Wed Apr 25 01:24:12 2007 From: elfundeb at elfundeb2.yahoo.invalid (Debbie) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 01:24:12 -0000 Subject: Reply to question on HPforGrownups list In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Speaking strictly as a listmember and not as an elf -- Carol: > Since the policy is chiefly for the benefit of the List Elves, I'm not > quite sure why we ordinary list members are being asked to respond. > However, since I joined this list specifically to comment on this > question, I'll add my two cents, anyway. Debbie: Because the list is for the members. :-) Carol: > So, yes, I think a week would be good. Any longer than that, and > impatient readers with time on their hands will be chafing at the bit; > any less time and those of us who need a week to read the books will > be deluged with posts by the time we're ready to post ourselves. Debbie: Hehehe. I'm one of those impatient readers; I always pick up the book at midnight (though I don't live in the U.K.) and despite being a slow reader, will be done by the end of the weekend and chomping at the bit to post. BTW, some statistics from OOP and HBP release -- *For OOP, the 500th post hit the list less than 12 hours after reopening, and we were above 1000 posts in 24 hours. Post rates stayed above 400 or so a day for weeks. *For HBP, we were closed a day and a half longer, and the post rate wasn't quite as extreme. It took nearly a day and a half for 1000 posts to hit the list. The point is that we will be deluged whenever the list reopens and it won't let up for a long time. Therefore, it will be impossible to read all the posts regardless of when the list opens. Going to work could be fatal. ;-) I'm hoping that the new and improved search function will encourage people to read up on the subject they intend to post on before posting, but I don't think a longer list closure will affect anyone's ability to read all the posts. Debbie who would be happy with a 45 hour list closure but understands the need to wait until she has someone to talk to :-D From quigonginger at quigonginger.yahoo.invalid Wed Apr 25 02:04:41 2007 From: quigonginger at quigonginger.yahoo.invalid (quigonginger) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 02:04:41 -0000 Subject: Reply to question on HPforGrownups list In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Debbie wrote: > *For OOP, the 500th post hit the list less than 12 hours after > reopening, and we were above 1000 posts in 24 hours. Post rates > stayed above 400 or so a day for weeks. > > *For HBP, we were closed a day and a half longer, and the post rate > wasn't quite as extreme. It took nearly a day and a half for 1000 > posts to hit the list. > > The point is that we will be deluged whenever the list reopens and > it won't let up for a long time. Therefore, it will be impossible > to read all the posts regardless of when the list opens. Going to > work could be fatal. ;-) > > I'm hoping that the new and improved search function will encourage > people to read up on the subject they intend to post on before > posting, but I don't think a longer list closure will affect > anyone's ability to read all the posts. Ginger: Gah! Debbie! Do you mean I'm the only one out there who reads all the posts before I post myself? I thought that was some sort of, um, I don't know, protocol, or something. Seriously, thanks for posting those stats. I remember being 1400 posts behind at one point after OoP. I did go to work and it was fatal. Does this mean that the posts sent out right after a book is released don't get read by more than a handful of people? OK, the first several probably do, and then people read threads. Somewhere back in the recesses of my mind, I remember before the release of HBP there was a post about how to make your first post- release post count. It was very good advice, and I wonder if it didn't make that release easier for those who actually try to keep up with the list. Is there anyone who remembers it, and could it be posted again, perhaps at the time of the reminder of when the list will be reopened? Ginger, who realizes I am straying from the topic of timing, but hopes that this qualifies as "feedback". From dumbledore11214 at dumbledore11214.yahoo.invalid Wed Apr 25 02:17:01 2007 From: dumbledore11214 at dumbledore11214.yahoo.invalid (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 02:17:01 -0000 Subject: Reply to question on HPforGrownups list In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Ginger: > Gah! Debbie! Do you mean I'm the only one out there who reads all > the posts before I post myself? I thought that was some sort of, um, > I don't know, protocol, or something. Alla: Ginger, you model poster you :) No, there is no such protocol as far as I know, hehe. I always considered it a courtesy and the way to decrease repetitiveness to always read every post in the thread I am in, hehe, but certainly not every post in general. And first release days I am afraid I will not be able to do even that. I will read posters I like and maybe sometimes respond - but I expect too much elfy work to even get involved in the thread initially on the regular basis. So, yeah, I always read thread ( there are few exceptions, but very very few - when I feel a need to protect my blood pressure, lol), but only the ones I am interested in and or participating. Sometimes I get involved in the thread after reading the post of the poster I love. Like I never ever miss Neri's posts for example, ever or yours for that matter ;) ( hint - post them more), or some other people. Of course I read all posts when I am list reading as elf. > Ginger, who realizes I am straying from the topic of timing, but > hopes that this qualifies as "feedback". > Alla: It so does :) From susiequsie23 at cubfanbudwoman.yahoo.invalid Wed Apr 25 03:29:56 2007 From: susiequsie23 at cubfanbudwoman.yahoo.invalid (susiequsie23) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 23:29:56 -0400 Subject: [HPFGU-Feedback] Re: Reply to question on HPforGrownups list References: Message-ID: <009001c786ea$003f34c0$6401a8c0@Main> Ginger: > Gah! Debbie! Do you mean I'm the only one out there who reads all > the posts before I post myself? I thought that was some sort of, um, > I don't know, protocol, or something. Shorty Elf: YES, YES, YES, Ginger. Shorty says, "You keep right on with that 'protocol or something' remark, and you broadcast it far and wide!" Truthfully, we *do* ask that of members -- sez so right in the posting rules ["*read the entire thread before posting, and don't merely repeat what's already been said"] -- but not everyone does that, especially just post-release. Ginger: > Does this mean that the posts sent out right after a book is released > don't get read by more than a handful of people? OK, the first > several probably do, and then people read threads. Shorty Elf: Heh. Yes, well, a handful at least, since the handful includes the ELVES -- at least, as a group we read 'em all! Which is why *this* elf likes that few moments (er, days) of silence before the list reopens. Gives one a chance to take a few deep breaths, stock up on the *caffeinated* Diet Coke, maybe even take a nap before all heck breaks loose. :)) In all seriousness, I wonder how many listees *do* actually read them all. Do you think there are some? Ginger: > Somewhere back in the recesses of my mind, I remember before the > release of HBP there was a post about how to make your first post- > release post count. It was very good advice, and I wonder if it > didn't make that release easier for those who actually try to keep up > with the list. Is there anyone who remembers it, and could it be > posted again, perhaps at the time of the reminder of when the list > will be reopened? Shorty Elf: Thanks for that reminder tip. This would definitely be a good thing to resurrect and ask folks to truly consider. > Ginger, who realizes I am straying from the topic of timing, but > hopes that this qualifies as "feedback". Shorty Elf: It's all feedback, as you say, Ginger. 'Tis appreciated. Shorty From sam2sar at sam2sar.yahoo.invalid Wed Apr 25 15:04:04 2007 From: sam2sar at sam2sar.yahoo.invalid (Stephanie) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 15:04:04 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: Feedback Wanted re List Closure for DH Release In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > The Main list will be closed on Saturday, July 21. What we have > not decided for certain is when the list will reopen. In 2003, > the list was closed 45 hours, until 9 p.m. British Summer Time (BST) > Sunday. This turned out to be inadequate for the elves to read and > digest OOP before getting back to work. In 2005, the list was closed > for 85 hours, until 1 p.m. BST Tuesday, a time that was selected > with an eye to both giving the elves enough time to read the book > and to choose a time when the maximum number of members in all > time zones would be awake. > > We have polled the elves and determined that the earliest we could > reopen would be Monday, July 23, around midday BST. This translates > to early morning in the U.S. and roughly 10 PM Australian East Coast > time. Before then there will be an insufficient number of elves > available for duty. > > What we do not yet know is when you, the listmembers, will want the > list open. When will you finish reading DH? Do you want the list to > reopen at the earliest possible time, or do you want a little more > time to contemplate? Is it important that the list reopen at a day > and hour when you might be able to read and post? What day and > hour would that be? > > Please let us know your thoughts over on our Feedback list, which > can be found at: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Feedback/ > > Do Not Reply To This Message on this list or you will be requested > to iron your hands! > > The List Elves I think the list should be closed until Tuesday to allow everone to get at least one read through. Then when the list opens to use SPOILER warnings for a month. That way those that had to weight for the book can come to the group without spoiler themselves. Sam From justcarol67 at justcarol67.yahoo.invalid Wed Apr 25 16:51:02 2007 From: justcarol67 at justcarol67.yahoo.invalid (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 16:51:02 -0000 Subject: Reply to question on HPforGrownups list In-Reply-To: <009001c786ea$003f34c0$6401a8c0@Main> Message-ID: Shorty Elf wrote: > In all seriousness, I wonder how many listees *do* actually read them all. Do you think there are some? Carol responds: I did. Took me several days! Like Ginger, I thought I was following protocol. But I also waited until three days after finishing HBP before I posted because I was in shock over what JKR had done to poor Snape. :-) Carol, happy to know that she only needs to read the whole thread, not 1500 posts, before posting From orphan_ann at or.phan_ann.yahoo.invalid Wed Apr 25 17:26:02 2007 From: orphan_ann at or.phan_ann.yahoo.invalid (or.phan_ann) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 17:26:02 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: Feedback Wanted re List Closure for DH Release In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-Feedback at yahoogroups.com, PenapartElf at ... wrote: > With DH arriving only three short months from now, the List > Elves have been revisiting our decisions for prior book releases. > We welcome listmember input on all aspects of how we can best > serve the list in the first frantic days after July 21, but we > particularly solicit comments how long the Main list (HPforGrownups) > should be closed for elves and listmembers alike to read the > Deathly Hallows. (We expect that HPFGU-OTChatter will be open, > but it will probably be a spoiler-free zone.) > > The Main list will be closed on Saturday, July 21. What we have > not decided for certain is when the list will reopen. In 2003, > the list was closed 45 hours, until 9 p.m. British Summer Time (BST) > Sunday. This turned out to be inadequate for the elves to read and > digest OOP before getting back to work. In 2005, the list was closed > for 85 hours, until 1 p.m. BST Tuesday, a time that was selected > with an eye to both giving the elves enough time to read the book > and to choose a time when the maximum number of members in all > time zones would be awake. > > We have polled the elves and determined that the earliest we could > reopen would be Monday, July 23, around midday BST. This translates > to early morning in the U.S. and roughly 10 PM Australian East Coast > time. Before then there will be an insufficient number of elves > available for duty. Ann: Two points: First, when on Saturday will the list close? The US and worldwide release dates are a few hours apart, and I'm sure nobody wants the US members to post HARRY KILLS SNAPE or whatever before the deadline. Second: I don't mind waiting a week or so for the list to re-open. I think the Elves should take as long as they need. From bboyminn at bboyminn.yahoo.invalid Wed Apr 25 19:18:02 2007 From: bboyminn at bboyminn.yahoo.invalid (Steve) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 19:18:02 -0000 Subject: List Close and OpenTimes - 2 Cents Message-ID: Personally, I think the list should be closed for a full THREE Days at least. True the elves might read the books in less time, but what kind of shape are they going to be in? For Quick reference - USA Central Daylight time - currently Weds, 1:53pm - GMT - 6:00 Greenwich Meantime is - currently (London) Weds, 7:53pm - GMT -+ 0 Brisbane Australia is - currently THURS, 4:53am - GMT + 10 I am assuming the group will close on Saturday morning July 21 at Midnight, but I'm not sure in which timezone. This is only significant if we have list elves in Australia and depending on when the books is released in Australia. If it is the same time and date as the rest of the world, then they will get it first. Currently speculation is opening the group again midday Monday BST which is rougly 6:00am USA Central Daylight time. That leave USA elves roughly from Saturday 12:00am local time to Monday 6:00am Central Daylight Time. That just doesn't seem to be enough. Of course, I'm not sure where the bulk of the Elves are, but it still seems like the absolute minimum possible time to accomplish the task. I personally think Midday Tuesday would work better for the elves, it would make things less rushed and give them a small bit of recovery time. This time (both start and stop) should either be uniformly BST, or it should be the local time of the area of the world with the most list elves. We will all start at roughly midnight local time, but if the end time is BST, the Australia has more time, and the USA has less time. Good for Australia, but bad for USA if that's where most of the List Elves are. So again, begin and end, should either be both BST, or the local time of the area where most List Elves are located, and it should be a full three days minimum. As I propose, from Saturday 12:00am Central (CDT) to Tuesday 12:00pm CDT, which is actually 3-1/2 days (assuming CDT is where most Elves are). Does that make sense? Seems to ramble a bit. Steve/bboyminn From susiequsie23 at cubfanbudwoman.yahoo.invalid Wed Apr 25 17:58:31 2007 From: susiequsie23 at cubfanbudwoman.yahoo.invalid (susiequsie23 at cubfanbudwoman.yahoo.invalid) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 10:58:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ADMIN: Feedback Wanted re List Closure for DH Release Message-ID: <553131.54593.qm@...> Ann: > First, when on Saturday will the list close? The US and worldwide > release dates are a few hours apart, and I'm sure nobody wants the US > members to post HARRY KILLS SNAPE or whatever before the deadline. Shorty Elf: The Admin team has made sure to shut down right at the UK release time, to ensure that kind of thing won't happen at HPfGU. If anyone's interested, here was the announcement of list closure for HBP: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/132906 And here's the one for OotP: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/61393 Shorty Elf From jillily3g at jillily3g.yahoo.invalid Wed Apr 25 21:19:14 2007 From: jillily3g at jillily3g.yahoo.invalid (Beth) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 21:19:14 -0000 Subject: Reading all posts [Was:Re: Reply to question on HPforGrownups list] In-Reply-To: <009001c786ea$003f34c0$6401a8c0@Main> Message-ID: Ginger wrote: Gah! Debbie! Do you mean I'm the only one out there who reads all the posts before I post myself? I thought that was some sort of, um, I don't know, protocol, or something. Shorty Elf replied:YES, YES, YES, Ginger. Shorty says, "You keep right on with that 'protocol or something' remark, and you broadcast it far and wide!" Truthfully, we *do* ask that of members -- sez so right in the posting rules ["*read the entire thread before posting, and don't merely repeat what's already been said"] -- but not everyone does that, especially just post-release. Now me (Beth): I thought this was the case, too, and when I joined, oh so many years ago, I took *weeks* reading through old posts so I wouldn't ask something that had already been asked or annoy someone by asking it wrong. (Which I'm sure I still do.) Since then, I've probably only posted about once a *year* because: 1) I don't allow myself to read all the posts any more so I have no idea if a subject has been discussed to death unless the search function spills the details. 2) It quickly became clear that *many* other members didn't bother to read enough to determine if they were simply repeating in their eagerness to see their post online and I got tired of reading a few ideas over and over. (Bless you, elves! And btw, does anyone else find it ironic that the same people who can zip through a 700+ page book can't be fussed to read through posts?) 3) I usually don't have too much original to add anyway and when I do it seems to get lost in the shuffle without comment. 4) I still don't seem to understand proper posting format (so please don't get too annoyed that this probably doesn't follow it!). Ginger: Does this mean that the posts sent out right after a book is released don't get read by more than a handful of people? OK, the first several probably do, and then people read threads. Shorty Elf: Heh. Yes, well, a handful at least, since the handful includes the ELVES -- at least, as a group we read 'em all! [snip] In all seriousness, I wonder how many listees *do* actually read them all. Do you think there are some? Beth: I hope so. Something got lost, imo, between OotP and HBP and while I have no solutions, I do know the results made me feel less likely to participate and/or even pop in more than occasionally. There's still a lot that's great about this group, but it seems to me to be harder to find. Beth, who is now going to duck and cover... From a_williams1 at aeshamali.yahoo.invalid Wed Apr 25 21:53:55 2007 From: a_williams1 at aeshamali.yahoo.invalid (aeshamali) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 21:53:55 -0000 Subject: List Close and OpenTimes - 2 Cents In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I joined the feedback list for a few days just to reply to this question, as posted on the main list. I agree wholeheartedly with Steve; three days at the very least. That gives everyone time to read, digest, lead a little bit of their regular lives, before diving headfirst into posting and reading. Just my $.02, Aesha From daperdad at daperdad.yahoo.invalid Wed Apr 25 22:49:34 2007 From: daperdad at daperdad.yahoo.invalid (me) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 22:49:34 -0000 Subject: I read Harry Potter Message-ID: I am just as excited about the new release as everyone else. I will probly read it in 2 days ..depending on how large it is it may take me 3 days. So i agree 3 days should be enough time. From mcrudele78 at mcrudele78.yahoo.invalid Thu Apr 26 00:20:25 2007 From: mcrudele78 at mcrudele78.yahoo.invalid (Mike) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 00:20:25 -0000 Subject: List Close and OpenTimes - 2 Cents In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- "Steve" wrote: > > I am assuming the group will close on Saturday morning > July 21 at Midnight, but I'm not sure in which timezone. Mike: Hi Steve, The list will close at 0001 hrs 21 Jul 07 British Summer Time (BST), (like my military time and date? ;)). Which by the way is 1 hour ahead of GMT since GMT never goes on daylight savings time. That means the list closes on Friday at 7PM EDT, 6PM CDT and so on. > Steve: > This is only significant if we have list elves in > Australia and depending on when the books is released in > Australia. If it is the same time and date as the rest of > the world, then they will get it first. Mike: Actually, Australia, being 9 hours or so ahead of BST will have the book released at the same time as their British mates, meaning they get the book at 9 AM Saturday morning. I believe that timeframe is true for every country east of Britain. It's only us poor shmucks west of the Prime Meridian that have to wait for our local clocks to strike midnight before we get our grubby little hands on Deathly Hallows. > Steve concludes: > > As I propose, from Saturday 12:00am Central (CDT) to > Tuesday 12:00pm CDT, which is actually 3-1/2 days > (assuming CDT is where most Elves are). > > Does that make sense? Seems to ramble a bit. Mike: Well, like I said, the list will close at 6:00 PM Friday Central Daylight Time (CDT). So does that mean you would stick with 3-1/2 days making it 6:00 AM your time, or would you still opt for Tuesday at noon anyway? And since this is on the feedback list, you get to ramble all you want. :D (Besides, I snipped out some of your ramblers) Mike, noting it doesn't matter where the elves live, we gotta suck it up and get back in the game. ;)) From bboyminn at bboyminn.yahoo.invalid Thu Apr 26 19:06:32 2007 From: bboyminn at bboyminn.yahoo.invalid (Steve) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 19:06:32 -0000 Subject: List Close and OpenTimes - 2 Cents In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- "Mike" wrote: > > --- "Steve" wrote: > ... > > > Steve concludes: > > > > As I propose, from Saturday 12:00am Central (CDT) to > > Tuesday 12:00pm CDT, which is actually 3-1/2 days > > (assuming CDT is where most Elves are). > > > > Does that make sense? Seems to ramble a bit. > > Mike: > Well, like I said, the list will close at 6:00 PM Friday > Central Daylight Time (CDT). So does that mean you would > stick with 3-1/2 days making it 6:00 AM your time, or > would you still opt for Tuesday at noon anyway? > > And since this is on the feedback list, you get to > ramble all you want. :D (Besides, I snipped out some > of your ramblers) > > Mike, noting it doesn't matter where the elves live, > we gotta suck it up and get back in the game. ;)) > bboyminn: First, it doesn't matter if the group closes at 6:00pm Friday, that is essentially non-time, since I can't actually get the books until 12:00am the next morning. We need 3-1/2 days from the time when a majority of the List Elves who will be working when the group opens, get their books. I'm trying to make sure the bulk of the List Elves have a full three days to read and recover. So, I think it /does/ matter where the majority of the List Elves are, though I concede they may be so spread out that there is no clear 'local' majority. If we open and close the group on Australian time, but a majority live in California, that puts them at a disadvantage; about an 18 hour disadvantage. I'm trying to find a way that serves the greatest number of List Elves and starting from the time when that majority actually get their hands on the book. I still say, Tuesday midday where I live (CDT) would work best. I'm not sure what that works out to in BST. Also, if most are in California, that midday California time. If most are in Europe, the Midday European time. So, amending my original statement, I want to make sure that a majority of the List Elves have a full three days plus from the time THEY GET THEIR BOOKS. Of course that's just my opinion, you can close and open whenever you want, I'm free to stay away from the list until I'm ready. However the List Elves don't have that luxury, they have to be back whether they are ready or not. Out of consideration, I would prefer that they collectively come back when a majority of the are truly ready. $.02 + $.02 more. Steve/bboyminn From ms_petra_pan at ms_petra_pan.yahoo.invalid Thu Apr 26 23:18:13 2007 From: ms_petra_pan at ms_petra_pan.yahoo.invalid (Petra) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 16:18:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: List Close and OpenTimes - 2 Cents Message-ID: <307193.42102.qm@...> Mike: > it doesn't matter where the elves live, we gotta suck it up and > get back in the game. ;)) bboyminn: > I think it /does/ matter where the majority of the > List Elves are, though I concede they may be so spread > out that there is no clear 'local' majority. If we > open and close the group on Australian time, but a > majority live in California, that puts them at a > disadvantage; about an 18 hour disadvantage. Petra: You are correct, I believe, that US Pacific time zone will be the most populated time zone that gets the least number of hours in which to read DH, as compared with the rest of the world. But I calculate the disadvantage to be 8 hours, not 18. According to JKR [see * below]: Thursday 1 February 2007 Publication Date for Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows will be published on Saturday 21st July 2007 at 00:01 BST in the UK and at 00:01 in the USA. It will also be released at 00:01 BST on Saturday 21st July in other English speaking countries around the world. Petra: I read the above to mean that the USA will get the book release at 6 different midnights, one for each of the 6 time zones (Eastern, Central, Mountain, Pacific, Alaska, Hawaii). All "English speaking countries around the world" including the UK (of course) will get the book released at 00:01 BST. Australian Eastern should therefore be getting the book at 9am their time. 00:01 Saturday in the UK converts to 16:01 Friday my (Pacific) time. The rest of the "English speaking countries around the world" will therefore get their books 8 hours before I can. It's not the whole Pacific time zone, I think British Columbia will get the book 8 hours before I do too. Same with Australian Eastern though it's many time zones away. See? I hope that made sense. bboyminn: > I'm trying to find a way that serves the greatest > number of List Elves and starting from the time > when that majority actually get their hands on the > book. Petra: It's incredibly gratifying to hear the sentiment "whatever will work best for the list elves' elfselves" from y'all. :) Hmm...that is different than "whatever the list elves decide" though. Which is why hearing everyone's feedback is so incredibly helpful. While you guys want the best for the list elves, the list elves want the best for the whole membership. Each group is left to *guess* at what would be the best for the other. How reminiscent of "The Gift of the Magi" eh? Best, in most cases, can mean *more* than one specific time. I doubt more than a handful have schedules that are so full that one and only one particular time can work for them. Which is why I find making this decision without more facts so hard. It seems to me that the trick is to find a re-open time that as many people as possible have in common as being "best" for them. Or, if that is impossible, a time that is most commonly "do-able" among the membership and list elves alike. We list elves can figure out our own requirements but what are the members' best times and do-able times? So I would personally find the following points to be the most helpful in trying to decide re-open time: GENERAL - LENGTH How much time do you think it would take you to digest DH, personally? (I ask this to answer "What is the closure length that would optimize the quality of our discussion?") Approximately: * 7 days * 6 days * 5 days * 4 days * 3 days * 2 days * 1 day * no closure at all SPECIFIC - TIMING FOR YOU (part 1) Please consider your personal schedule with regards to when you want to post. If you are a conscientious poster who likes to read the whole thread/the whole board before formulating your own thoughts please take that into consideration. * Do you prefer to post before work, school, real life...? * Do you prefer to post during "working" hours (roughly 9am - 5pm)? * Do you prefer to post during the evening (roughly 7pm - 10pm)? * Do you prefer to be up with nite owls (10pm to the dark thirties)? Whatever your choice(s), what is the BST equivalent? Or tell us what time zone is your reference. [see **] SPECIFIC - TIMING FOR YOU (part 2) * Personally can't post before work, school, real life.... * Personally can't post during "working" hours (roughly 9am - 5pm). * Personally can't post during the evening (roughly 7pm - 10pm). * Personally can't be up with nite owls (10pm to the dark thirties). Whatever your choice(s), what is the BST equivalent? Or tell us what time zone is your reference. [see **] Petra a n :) [*] http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/en/news_view.cfm?id=97 [**] http://www.timezoneconverter.com/cgi-bin/tzc.tzc __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From annemehr at annemehr.yahoo.invalid Fri Apr 27 15:04:58 2007 From: annemehr at annemehr.yahoo.invalid (Annemehr) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 15:04:58 -0000 Subject: List Close and OpenTimes - 2 Cents In-Reply-To: <307193.42102.qm@...> Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-Feedback at yahoogroups.com, Petra wrote: > So I would personally find the following points to be the most helpful > in trying to decide re-open time: > > > > GENERAL - LENGTH > > How much time do you think it would take you to digest DH, > personally? (I ask this to answer "What is the closure length that > would optimize the quality of our discussion?") Anne: Four days, for me. I intend to read slowly enough to think while I read, and think a bit after, before discussing anything. > > SPECIFIC - TIMING FOR YOU (part 1) > Whatever your choice(s), what is the BST equivalent? Or tell us > what time zone is your reference. [see **] Anne: My days are usually flexible, or at least it's hard to foresee when I'll get busy, so I'm no help there. > > SPECIFIC - TIMING FOR YOU (part 2) > > * Personally can't post Anne: Same answer. :P Another major consideration for me, is reading the list. I *do* hate posting without having read what's out there, but the post-OoP deluge was absolutely impossible. And, I *really* don't want to have to wade through hundreds of "seeing Thestrals"-quality posts to ensure I didn't miss something of substance. Earlier, Deb noted that the list was closed longer for HBP than OoP, and I don't think it's a coincidence that there were many fewer (and, IIRC, better quality) posts after HBP. And, for people who like to zip through six or seven hundred pages in a day and then slap the obvious up on the 'net, I don't think HPfGU is the best place for it. Accordingly, I put my $0.02 down hoping the list will be closed for four or five days. I would think seven is excessive, but I wouldn't complain. Anne From dfrankiswork at davewitley.yahoo.invalid Sat Apr 28 11:22:12 2007 From: dfrankiswork at davewitley.yahoo.invalid (davewitley) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 11:22:12 -0000 Subject: List Close and OpenTimes - 2 Cents In-Reply-To: <307193.42102.qm@...> Message-ID: Petra: > According to JKR: > > Thursday 1 February 2007 > > Publication Date for Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows > > Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows will be published on Saturday > 21st July 2007 at 00:01 BST in the UK and at 00:01 in the USA. It > will also be released at 00:01 BST on Saturday 21st July in other > English speaking countries around the world. > > Petra: > I read the above to mean that the USA will get the book release at > 6 different midnights, one for each of the 6 time zones (Eastern, > Central, Mountain, Pacific, Alaska, Hawaii). All "English speaking > countries around the world" including the UK (of course) will get the > book released at 00:01 BST. Australian Eastern should therefore > be getting the book at 9am their time. > > 00:01 Saturday in the UK converts to 16:01 Friday my (Pacific) time. > The rest of the "English speaking countries around the world" will > therefore get their books 8 hours before I can. It's not the whole > Pacific time zone, I think British Columbia will get the book 8 hours > before I do too. Same with Australian Eastern though it's many time > zones away. > > See? I hope that made sense. It does indeed make sense, but as is so often the case, a surface reading of canon is misleading. >From the Canadian publishers of Harry Potter ( http://www.raincoast.com/harrypotter/ ): "Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows Saturday, July 21, 2007, 12:01 local time" So I think that JKR sees Canada (and for all I know, the Caribbean and the Falklands) as being included in the term 'USA'. I know, don't shoot me, I merely interpret the data. My understanding, therefore, is that copies of Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows will apparate into bookshops throughout the Eastern Hemisphere at 00:01 BST, and then take twelve hours to cross the whole Western Hemisphere from the Cape Verde Islands and Scoresbysund to American Samoa and the Aleutians (so not just the USA), being neatly brought to bookstores by broomstick at 00:01 local time. Intriguingly, this should mean that the inhabitants of eastern Kiribati will get their copies at 2:01pm Saturday local time (what *is* with that extra minute, anyway?), while for the inhabitants of Hawai'i due north, it will be 2:01pm Friday and they still have ten hours to wait. Isn't magic wonderful? David From random832 at random832.yahoo.invalid Mon Apr 30 15:00:56 2007 From: random832 at random832.yahoo.invalid (Jordan Abel) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 11:00:56 -0400 Subject: [HPFGU-Feedback] Re: List Close and OpenTimes - 2 Cents In-Reply-To: References: <307193.42102.qm@...> Message-ID: <7b9f25e50704300800k2af21bf9y8b4b7244e3329c31@...> On 4/28/07, davewitley wrote: > (what *is* with that extra minute, anyway?) Historical reasons; it's traditional to say "11:59" or "12:01" and accept a lost minute rather than say "12:00" and risk being off by a day due to confusion as to which day midnight belongs to. --Random832 From mgrantwich at mgrantwich.yahoo.invalid Mon Apr 30 19:14:51 2007 From: mgrantwich at mgrantwich.yahoo.invalid (Magda Grantwich) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 12:14:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPFGU-Feedback] Re: book black out In-Reply-To: <823224.7248.qm@...> Message-ID: <440350.51046.qm@...> I think a week - from Saturday to Saturday - would be a good time-out. Magda __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From Schlobin1 at susanmcgee48176.yahoo.invalid Tue May 1 18:53:06 2007 From: Schlobin1 at susanmcgee48176.yahoo.invalid (Schlobin1 at susanmcgee48176.yahoo.invalid) Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 14:53:06 EDT Subject: [HPFGU-Feedback] Re: List Close and OpenTimes - 2 Cents Message-ID: Hi, in response to second request for feedback......I hope the list will be open as soon as possible....I don't understand why members cannot wait until they have finished the book, and then look at the list, and list postings..... I have a feeling that I will look to the list for emotional catharsis -- mourning whoever it is who is lost (except for LV and his DEs). Susan McGee Eureka, CA ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mscobine at mscobine.yahoo.invalid Tue May 1 22:01:19 2007 From: mscobine at mscobine.yahoo.invalid (mscobine) Date: Tue, 01 May 2007 22:01:19 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: Feedback Wanted re List Closure for DH Release In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The first several books I was able to read in one day, staying up all night and all. But this 6th book, I had my folks here for a few days and I didn't finish the book for several days, so I'll go with the majority on the answer. I can't determine if I'll have unlimited reading time right now. From rkdas at susanbones2003.yahoo.invalid Wed May 2 00:58:33 2007 From: rkdas at susanbones2003.yahoo.invalid (susanbones2003) Date: Wed, 02 May 2007 00:58:33 -0000 Subject: Later is better! Message-ID: Hi there, feedback folks. I'd like to see the list not open until Tuesday at least. Rushing the elves is not a good idea. We will need them. Also, I share a book with a possessive reader and wouldn't get to read straight through. I appreciate any little extra bit of time in case I need to wring out my hankies, mop up the floor, take care of any possible floods of tears... Thanks so much for giving me a chance to put my 2 cents in. Jen D. From witherwing at witherwings999.yahoo.invalid Wed May 2 02:04:53 2007 From: witherwing at witherwings999.yahoo.invalid (Rebecca Scalf) Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 19:04:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: When to reopen HPFGU post Deathly Hallows Message-ID: <666553.96827.qm@...> Hello. Here's my two cents about when to reopen - Monday is reasonable, as I think most adults will be done that day. For me, it really does not matter, however, because I will not be peeking until I'm done! Cheers, Witherwing From OctobersChild48 at sandylee51.yahoo.invalid Wed May 2 05:52:09 2007 From: OctobersChild48 at sandylee51.yahoo.invalid (OctobersChild48 at sandylee51.yahoo.invalid) Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 01:52:09 EDT Subject: [HPFGU-Feedback] Re: List Close and OpenTimes - 2 Cents Message-ID: In a message dated 5/1/2007 2:58:04 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, Schlobin1 at ... writes: Hi, in response to second request for feedback......I hope the list will be open as soon as possible....I don't understand why members cannot wait until they have finished the book, and then look at the list, and list postings..... Sandy now: I totally agree with Susan. I would like to see the list re-open as soon as possible. Since everyone reads at their own speed no one should have to wait any longer than they have to because others have not finished the book, list elves excepted of course. If you haven't finished the book yet and don't want to be spoiled, don't visit the list. Simple as that. Sandy ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From paulag5777 at paulag5777.yahoo.invalid Wed May 2 12:28:00 2007 From: paulag5777 at paulag5777.yahoo.invalid (Paula Gaon) Date: Wed, 02 May 2007 12:28:00 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: Feedback Wanted re List Closure for DH Release In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-Feedback at yahoogroups.com, PenapartElf at ... wrote: > Welcome to Feedback - thanks for dropping by! > > I've copied below the original admin soliciting your feedback > for your reference ease. If you wish to discuss specific > times, please remember to tell us what time zone you are in > or better yet, give it to us in British Summer Time (BST). > Here's a great time converter that you can use: > > http://www.timezoneconverter.com Reply: OK, I have summarily ironed my hands--ouch! Haven't been active in HPFGU for quite some time and am still getting used to the new format. In any case, in my humble opinion, later is better--even 2 weeks after release. Not only because I plan to become active again at this time, but the end of our hero's adventures, ie the very last book plus a possible traumatic ending...let's give ourselves some time to digest. Happy Flying, ~Paula From tongin_1971 at tongin_1971.yahoo.invalid Wed May 2 14:56:21 2007 From: tongin_1971 at tongin_1971.yahoo.invalid (tongin_1971) Date: Wed, 02 May 2007 14:56:21 -0000 Subject: List Close and OpenTimes - 2 Cents In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-Feedback at yahoogroups.com, OctobersChild48 at ... wrote: > > > In a message dated 5/1/2007 2:58:04 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > Schlobin1 at ... writes: > > Hi, in response to second request for feedback......I hope the list will be > > open as soon as possible....I don't understand why members cannot wait until > > they have finished the book, and then look at the list, and list > postings..... > > > > > > > Sandy now: > > I totally agree with Susan. I would like to see the list re-open as soon as > possible. Since everyone reads at their own speed no one should have to wait > any longer than they have to because others have not finished the book, list > elves excepted of course. If you haven't finished the book yet and don't want > to be spoiled, don't visit the list. Simple as that. > > Sandy > > > >Ginny wonders: If there is a place for the completely impatient to chat with each other until those of us on the US west coast and in the eastern Pacific to at least read most of it. I understand the need to talk about what is going on in the Last Book so if there is a place for them to chat please post the link on the closed site. Yes, Sandy but by then it will be a full time job to catch up with all the posts. Its hard enough in the normal course of the group and some of us have full time jobs. Good luck Elves, you can't please all the peolpe all the time. Ginny > From djklaugh at djklaugh.yahoo.invalid Thu May 3 04:27:55 2007 From: djklaugh at djklaugh.yahoo.invalid (Deb) Date: Thu, 03 May 2007 04:27:55 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: Feedback Wanted re List Closure for DH Release In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Being in the Pacific Daylight Time Zone I will probably not get my book until about 10-11am on Saturday ... unless the US postal service and UPS have hired a veritable army of Muggles to deliver the books. Amazon.com assures me the book will be in my hands that day ... but whew! They have a LOT of books to deliver that day. So I probably can't start reading until 11am or so (anyone know a spell to bring the mail early?) While I read fairly rapidly I have promised myself that this time I will savor the book, read it to absorb nuance and detail ... not just gobble like I have done in the past :) With OOP and HPB it took me about 3 days to finish each book given that the Muggles and Kneazles who lived with me at the time kept interrupting. This time just the Kneazles live with me and they like snuggling while I'm reading though they do insist on regular meals. So for me the ideal time to reopen the list would be ... ummm oh Tuesday evening I guess cuz I can not post anything from work and that is where I'll have to be on Tuesday. djklaugh (aka Deb owned by two large Maine Coon Cats who think books are made just for them to pose upon) Making my shopping list already - pumpkin juice, Caldron Cakes, a large box of Every Flavor Beans, a box of Ice Mice and a treacle tart. That should hold me for a while :) From sridharj_ap at sridharj_ap.yahoo.invalid Thu May 3 09:49:36 2007 From: sridharj_ap at sridharj_ap.yahoo.invalid (sridharj_ap) Date: Thu, 03 May 2007 09:49:36 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: Feedback Wanted re List Closure for DH Release In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi, I understand the list needs to be closed periodically like Hogwarts, but I would consider the release of THE BOOK to be the start of a new year at Hogwarts. As long as there is the Headmaster (even though it is not DD anymore ), it is the policy not to close unless there is grave danger. Ok, unless JKR, I tend to ramble, so the point is: Why should it be closed? ok, maybe till the list elves read the book, but even then, it would be great for those among us who know the Magical Parchment Absorption Charm, to chat and discuss as soon as we read the book. Regards A Hogwarts dropout From annemehr at annemehr.yahoo.invalid Thu May 3 15:56:57 2007 From: annemehr at annemehr.yahoo.invalid (Annemehr) Date: Thu, 03 May 2007 15:56:57 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: Feedback Wanted re List Closure for DH Release In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-Feedback at yahoogroups.com, "sridharj_ap" wrote: > Ok, unless JKR, I tend to ramble, so the point is: Why should it be > closed? ok, maybe till the list elves read the book, but even then, > it would be great for those among us who know the Magical Parchment > Absorption Charm, to chat and discuss as soon as we read the book. > > Regards > A Hogwarts dropout > Well, because HPfGU is a high-volume list (VERY high-volume right after a book release), and it's not meant for just "chat." Posts are supposed to be substantive and have some thought behind them. If it's reopened too early, you get too much of the boring chatter. It becomes a vicious cycle: the more repetitive chatter swamps the list, the less anyone can read the threads before posting, even if they wanted to, so the more repetitive posts appear, and so on. If there was a new idea mixed in somewhere, no one could find it to have a real discussion. I mean, after OoP you'd see a post beginning "Has anyone noticed..." and continuing with stuff that had been posted several hundred times already, the most recent being mere hours before. It was totally useless. With this new threading system of Yahoo's, it's going to be even harder to follow any particular thread you're interested in, besides. That's why I'm hoping for at least a four-day shutdown. The post-HBP shutdown was longer than OoP's, and things were better. IMNSHO. Annemehr From friartuck97 at friartuck97.yahoo.invalid Thu May 3 18:23:09 2007 From: friartuck97 at friartuck97.yahoo.invalid (Jim "Chocolate Thunder" Dennis) Date: Thu, 03 May 2007 18:23:09 -0000 Subject: The longer the better... Message-ID: Seven books, seven Horcruxes, seven years at Hogwarts, seven Friday the 13th movies...before the other three and the "Freddy v. Jason" one... I vote seven days, just to prevent the "Hey, did you read the book?" "Yeah, it was great! I can't believe Harry opened up a Muggle Chinese restaurant with Crabbe and Goyle after turning Voldemort into Secret Sauce!" "Sure was great!" The true dissection of the book can wait a week while we ALL take the time to absorb/read it a second (probably a third) time... Friartuck97 From ceridwennight at ceridwennight.yahoo.invalid Sun May 6 19:54:08 2007 From: ceridwennight at ceridwennight.yahoo.invalid (Ceridwen) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 19:54:08 -0000 Subject: If anybody's interested... Message-ID: I've started a group for early squeeing and/or mourning. It goes by the suitably gruesome title of I Solemnly Swear on the Bones of my Father. It will be active only for the seven days after the release of DH, no matter when the HPfGU list re-opens. I haven't set this up as a list elf, or as an extension of HPfGU. This is just me, personally, setting up a place for people to talk about the book, since HPfGU will be shut down. You can use it to develop theories if any theories need to be developed, or you can just use it to blow off steam. All members of HPfGU are invited to trundle on over. Bring friends. I think you can submit predictions and speculation now, if you like, but the main purpose of the board is to get the initial frantic reactions out in print and share them with fellow fans in the first few days after release. None of the rumors that have turned up on the internet in the last few weeks will be allowed. Those sites went up and then down again pretty quickly, so there could be copyright infringement involved. At the least it's not polite to other fans who don't want spoilers of any sort. Those rumors will be deleted as soon as I see them. The link is: http://groups.google.com/group/i-solemnly-swear-on-the-bones-of-my- father Ceridwen. From janetaba at janetaba.yahoo.invalid Sun May 6 22:52:55 2007 From: janetaba at janetaba.yahoo.invalid (Janet Tabares) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 17:52:55 -0500 Subject: [HPFGU-Feedback] If anybody's interested... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: HPFGU-Feedback at yahoogroups.com [mailto:HPFGU-Feedback at yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Ceridwen Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 2:54 PM To: HPFGU-Feedback at yahoogroups.com Subject: [HPFGU-Feedback] If anybody's interested... I've started a group for early squeeing and/or mourning. It goes by the suitably gruesome title of I Solemnly Swear on the Bones of my Father. It will be active only for the seven days after the release of DH, no matter when the HPfGU list re-opens. The link is: http://groups.google.com/group/i-solemnly-swear-on-the-bones-of-my-father Ceridwen. Cool, now I don't have to set one up. I was going to do basically the same thing, short term, just to have a place to talk for the interim. I don't do "CHAT" so I wouldn't have even tried to converse that way. I'm too old, can't keep up with the constant motion in a chat room. Also can't keep up with more than one or two conver- sations at a time. Just my age showing through. Thanks, Janet From ceridwennight at ceridwennight.yahoo.invalid Sun May 6 23:30:20 2007 From: ceridwennight at ceridwennight.yahoo.invalid (Ceridwen) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 23:30:20 -0000 Subject: If anybody's interested... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Janet: > Cool, now I don't have to set one up. I was going to do basically the same > thing, > short term, just to have a place to talk for the interim. I don't do "CHAT" > so I > wouldn't have even tried to converse that way. I'm too old, can't keep up > with the > constant motion in a chat room. Also can't keep up with more than one or two > conver- > sations at a time. Just my age showing through. Ceridwen: Hee! Same here. I can manage all right chatting with one person, and have actually managed pretty well with two, but chat isn't my thing. I can't keep up or keep aware of what's being said. :( And, I know it's my age! LOL! HPfGU has a chat board at chatzy: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 for anyone who likes to chat. There are regular Sunday chats. I'm not positive that chat will be open right after DH's release, maybe someone can answer that? Ceridwen. From gypseelynn at gypseelynn.yahoo.invalid Mon May 7 08:12:00 2007 From: gypseelynn at gypseelynn.yahoo.invalid (Rebecca) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 08:12:00 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: Feedback Wanted re List Closure for DH Release In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ok, here's my feedback...I'm gonna be selfish :) I absolutely LOVE getting on this site ASAP after the books get out...I know you need to read and digest the books so I understand that you need to take quite a bit of time before you come back up, but I say the sooner the better :)!!! Thanks for all you do. Rebecca From zanelupin at zanelupin.yahoo.invalid Mon May 7 14:35:35 2007 From: zanelupin at zanelupin.yahoo.invalid (KathyK) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 14:35:35 -0000 Subject: If anybody's interested... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ceridwen: > HPfGU has a chat board at chatzy: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 > for anyone who likes to chat. There are regular Sunday chats. I'm > not positive that chat will be open right after DH's release, maybe > someone can answer that? KathyK: I don't see why it can't be, or wouldn't be. That way those who enjoy chat can have their place to squeee, too. We did use chat last time for that purpose, although we didn't use Chatzy. From akhillin at anita_hillin.yahoo.invalid Tue May 8 01:46:25 2007 From: akhillin at anita_hillin.yahoo.invalid (Anita Hillin) Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 20:46:25 -0500 Subject: [HPFGU-Feedback] If anybody's interested... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5u1lfe$c6vhuh@...> Ceridwen announced: I've started a group for early squeeing and/or mourning. It goes by the suitably gruesome title of I Solemnly Swear on the Bones of my Father. It will be active only for the seven days after the release of DH, no matter when the HPfGU list re-opens. akh squees: Thanks! I have no doubt I'll be desperate to talk about the book the moment I finish it (Sunday afternoon, if Book 6 is any indication). I'm the worst at predicting, but I have no doubt I'll be ready to hear what everyone thinks, and I love looking at others' predictions. It's bookmarked already! Akh, who has the same excitement/dread as most of the HPfGUers [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From PenapartElf at penapart_elf.yahoo.invalid Tue May 8 07:06:21 2007 From: PenapartElf at penapart_elf.yahoo.invalid (PenapartElf at penapart_elf.yahoo.invalid) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 03:06:21 EDT Subject: at which o'clock should we re-open? Message-ID: Most of the responses so far have been about the general length of much long the closure should be. But what about the specific timing in your day? I asked this in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Feedback/message/887 but can more people speak on this? When do you prefer to post? Just as importantly, since there's no way for us to know this except to ask: when in your day CAN'T you post? Please tell us your time zone, thanks! Petra a n :) ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. From gav_fiji at gav_fiji.yahoo.invalid Tue May 8 07:37:18 2007 From: gav_fiji at gav_fiji.yahoo.invalid (Goddlefrood) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 07:37:18 -0000 Subject: at which o'clock should we re-open? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Petra: > Most of the responses so far have been about the general length of much long the closure should be. > > But what about the specific timing in your day? Goddlefrood: Not following you around, just making a comment as a list member only. I live in Fiji (GMT + 12). As such I do not expect an opening time to suit myself. I do have a suggestion for the time of day, however, and wondered if this might meet the case, it is: Open at 2.01 p. m. GMT - This means, and taking for the sake of this Wednesday GMT as the starting point: 3.01 p. m. BST (UK time current as it will be in July) 10.01 a. m. EST (US east coast) (same day) 7.01 a. m. Pacific Time (US west coast) (same day) 2.01 a. m. Fiji time (Thursday) 12.01 p. m. Australian Eastern time (Thursday) 6.31 p. m. India (Wednesday too :-)) This is suggested as a time that would fit in with the working week, and would allow those who might take the day off to plan for that. I post at many and varied times of day, whenever I'm inclined actually. I have less than 180 posts on main as at the time of writing this response, so I may not be the best Judge of this. As I'll most probably have to sift pendings and would have little time to post my own thoughts until a week or two after the list opens again :-( I put this forward as a suggestion only to get the ball rolling. Kind felicitations Goddlefrood From PenapartElf at penapart_elf.yahoo.invalid Tue May 8 07:52:38 2007 From: PenapartElf at penapart_elf.yahoo.invalid (PenapartElf at penapart_elf.yahoo.invalid) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 03:52:38 EDT Subject: at which o'clock should we re-open? Message-ID: Goddlefrood: > Not following you around Petra: Nah, you don't look like stalker... Goddlefrood: > I put this forward as a suggestion only to get the ball rolling. Petra: Any movement of said ball at message #910 would be greatly appreciated! Petra, wondering we're the only people up at this time a n :) ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. From ceridwennight at ceridwennight.yahoo.invalid Wed May 9 01:41:37 2007 From: ceridwennight at ceridwennight.yahoo.invalid (Ceridwen) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 01:41:37 -0000 Subject: at which o'clock should we re-open? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Goddlefrood suggesting: > Open at 2.01 p. m. GMT - This means, and taking for the sake of > this Wednesday GMT as the starting point: > > 3.01 p. m. BST (UK time current as it will be in July) > > 10.01 a. m. EST (US east coast) (same day) > > 7.01 a. m. Pacific Time (US west coast) (same day) > > 2.01 a. m. Fiji time (Thursday) > > 12.01 p. m. Australian Eastern time (Thursday) > > 6.31 p. m. India (Wednesday too :-)) Ceridwen: So, all times GMT for my following: The list closes at 12:01 a.m. Saturday 21 July, re-opens at 2:01 p.m. Wednesday 25 July? That would be two hours over four and a half days, correct? Those times would work fine for me as a listmember, and as an elf. Ceridwen, from the Eastern Timezone of the U.S. From catcherjoyce at catcherjoyce.yahoo.invalid Sun Jun 3 09:32:29 2007 From: catcherjoyce at catcherjoyce.yahoo.invalid (joyce) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 09:32:29 -0000 Subject: at which o'clock should we re-open? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: just wanted to give my two cents that i'm fine with the five-odd days to read the book once-over. (then just go through it again and again...) --- In HPFGU-Feedback at yahoogroups.com, "Ceridwen" wrote: > > Goddlefrood suggesting: > > > Open at 2.01 p. m. GMT - This means, and taking for the sake of > > this Wednesday GMT as the starting point: > > > > 3.01 p. m. BST (UK time current as it will be in July) > > > > 10.01 a. m. EST (US east coast) (same day) > > > > 7.01 a. m. Pacific Time (US west coast) (same day) > > > > 2.01 a. m. Fiji time (Thursday) > > > > 12.01 p. m. Australian Eastern time (Thursday) > > > > 6.31 p. m. India (Wednesday too :-)) > > Ceridwen: > So, all times GMT for my following: > The list closes at 12:01 a.m. Saturday 21 July, re-opens at 2:01 p.m. > Wednesday 25 July? That would be two hours over four and a half > days, correct? > > Those times would work fine for me as a listmember, and as an elf. > > Ceridwen, from the Eastern Timezone of the U.S. > From kelley_thompson at kelleyscorpio.yahoo.invalid Thu Jun 21 05:16:18 2007 From: kelley_thompson at kelleyscorpio.yahoo.invalid (Kelley) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 05:16:18 -0000 Subject: Yahoo Groups Beta Message-ID: Hi, everyone-- As some of you already know, Yahoo's revamped Groups, and they're now beta testing them. HPfGU was given the opportunity to create a beta group to test it out, see how it works, etc. So, we have created: http://new.groups.yahoo.com/HPFGU-Beta Open membership, non-moderated posting, so please join up, post, try things out, see what y'all think. One of the elves will be in touch with folks at Yahoo on the 27th, so we'd like to have some good feedback for them by then. Thanks, everyone; let us know if you have any troubles joining up. --Kelley From hpfgu.elves at hpfgu_elves.yahoo.invalid Sat Oct 20 15:31:14 2007 From: hpfgu.elves at hpfgu_elves.yahoo.invalid (hpfgu_elves) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 15:31:14 -0000 Subject: The State of the List Questionaire - Oct 2007 Message-ID: A few Rules to help us Elves: Rule 1: No knife fighting in a phone booth. Translation: No personal comments, please. No singling out a particular member for comments. Rule 2: No Afterburners over populated areas. Translation: No flame wars, please. Keep your comments civil, even the negative ones. Rule 3: Bribes accepted at the Scheduler's desk. Translation: Positive comments are welcome, as are praise for any List Member or the Elves . This is the ONLY exception to the first rule. Rule 4: All Leaves are cancelled until morale improves Translation: Negative comments are fine, but it would be more constructive if you add an opinion or idea on how to correct the thing that invoked your negative reaction. This is more of a guideline than a rule. Rule 5: One from column A, One from column B Translation: You can answer any or none of the following questions, your prerogative. If you are addressing a particular question, would you please lead your answer with at least the question number. ******************************************************************** 1. What has been your general impression of the list since the release of DH? 2. Have you been posting since the release? Less than, as much as, or more than you did before the release? If there is a change, what has caused you to change? If you haven't been posting at all, or been posting rarely, why do you think that is? 3. Are you happy with the way the list is handled and/or the way things are going at present? If you feel some action should be taken by the elves, what would you suggest? What suggestions would you give members in general to improve the list? What, if anything, have you tried to improve the list? 4. Now that we have all seven books and the speculation is over, what do you see as the purpose of this list? What would you imagine/want to see happening on the list a year from now? From frankd14612 at frankd14612.yahoo.invalid Sat Oct 20 22:10:28 2007 From: frankd14612 at frankd14612.yahoo.invalid (Frank D) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 18:10:28 -0400 Subject: Great group / Quoted text Message-ID: <000901c81366$0afc06a0$0a00a8c0@FRANK> Frank D: On the whole the HPFGU group is great: good-to-excellent posts and the same level of replies and followups. I keep the ones that are relevant to my interests in a Harry Potter folder in my mail client so that in the future I can return to data-mine them or recapture a point. Just one minor irritant for me is that, in general, too much of the previous subject matter is being repeated. When you have two or three paragraphs of quoted text with all kinds of pov's and topics, and then the current poster says something like, "Yes, I agree!" or "That's not the way I see it," I am forced to go back to word 1 of paragraph 1, all the way through to the end, to see if I can glean what the current poster is agreeing or disagreeing with. It's a very tiring and mind-boggling experience when you are going through 20 or 30 posts in a row. It would be fantastic if each poster would quote at most one or two sentences at a time, make one specific point based on it/them, and then go on to the next point. That would make reading all posts quick and pleasurable. That's it: my 2 cents. Thanks for the opportunity to post my comments. Frank D From Schlobin1 at susanmcgee48176.yahoo.invalid Sun Oct 21 05:33:48 2007 From: Schlobin1 at susanmcgee48176.yahoo.invalid (Schlobin1 at susanmcgee48176.yahoo.invalid) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 01:33:48 EDT Subject: [HPFGU-Feedback] Great group / Quoted text Message-ID: Thanks for asking for feedback. One of the problems with the list is its volume - don't know if you can do anything about that! I come and go on the list -- the last time I remember going was because the level of virulent comments cast by HH shippers towards RH shippers and vice versa. Now I'm disheartened by all the nasty comments made about JKR. I'm not talking about criticizing her writing, I'm talking about posts calling her a coward or vicious, etc. etc. I cracked up when she told the children at Carnegie Hall that she had got hate mail about Ron and Hermione's relationship - from adults! I guess it's fine that lots of people don't like DH, but how can you be so nasty towards an author who has created a universe that you care so deeply about? I disagree with your decision to allow JKR to be called names. But, I wonder if there is a way to request posters to be more respectful? Susan McGee ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From arielock at arielock2001.yahoo.invalid Sun Oct 21 15:28:57 2007 From: arielock at arielock2001.yahoo.invalid (arielock2001) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 15:28:57 -0000 Subject: Anger towards JKR (was Re: Great group / Quoted text) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Susan McGee wrote: > I guess it's fine that lots of people don't like DH, but how can you be so > nasty towards an author who has created a universe that you care so deeply > about? Arianna replies: Because she callously destroyed that universe in DH. -Arianna From Schlobin1 at susanmcgee48176.yahoo.invalid Sun Oct 21 18:59:23 2007 From: Schlobin1 at susanmcgee48176.yahoo.invalid (Schlobin1 at susanmcgee48176.yahoo.invalid) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 14:59:23 EDT Subject: [HPFGU-Feedback] Anger towards JKR (was Re: Great group / Quoted text) Message-ID: In a message dated 10/21/2007 11:01:55 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, arielock at ... writes: Susan McGee wrote: > I guess it's fine that lots of people don't like DH, but how can you be so > nasty towards an author who has created a universe that you care so deeply > about? Arianna replies: Because she callously destroyed that universe in DH. -Arianna In your opinion, of course. Part of the reason that I don't like the list. Seems quite mean-spirited these days. Susan ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Schlobin1 at susanmcgee48176.yahoo.invalid Sun Oct 21 19:18:48 2007 From: Schlobin1 at susanmcgee48176.yahoo.invalid (Schlobin1 at susanmcgee48176.yahoo.invalid) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 15:18:48 EDT Subject: [HPFGU-Feedback] Anger towards JKR (was Re: Great group / Quoted text) Message-ID: In a message dated 10/21/2007 11:01:55 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, arielock at ... writes: Susan McGee wrote: > I guess it's fine that lots of people don't like DH, but how can you be so > nasty towards an author who has created a universe that you care so deeply > about? Arianna replies: Because she callously destroyed that universe in DH. -Arianna Well, really Arianna, your response encapsulates the severe problems I have with the list. I am not the only adult who feels the same way. It was almost funny when JKR said she got hate mail from grown-ups about the fact that Harry and Hermione didn't become romantic partners. On one of the lists, another grownup said it was horrible that DD was gay, she could have dealt with him being bisexual, but she wanted to maintain her romantic fantasies about him. I think some people on the list have lost touch with reality. Seriously. Here's JKR who gives millions to charity. She's written wonderful books about love, trust, fighting for justice and tolerance. She has an amazing imagination -- she's created a universe full of incredible creatures, history, mythology, etc. If you watch her read you can tell she loves her books and she loves children. She's done all kinds of amazing things for kids. On the list I've read that she's trying to get more attention and more money! She doesn't need any more attention - she gets more than most people in the universe. She has plenty of money - she's the richest woman in England. Still, she stays true to her values. She loves her husband, he's obviously a great guy, and they are protecting their children from the spotlight. Yet everyone seems to want her to be perfect. Too many people are furious because the end to the books didn't match their fantasy or vision. Gosh, it's fine to be annoyed -- but then to turn around and viciously attack the author? Ychhh....To impute that she "callously destroyed" the universe? Callously means that she did it to be nasty and mean? Do you really think that? Goodness gracious me! I also worry a little bit. Will some mentally ill fan attack JKR because she or he is angry that Hedwig was killed? Or that she never did tell us what individual would develop magical powers in later life? There's real fuel for the fire for emotionally disturbed individuals on the list. If I were running the list, I'd put out a plea for people to just calm down a little bit. Also, I notice that some posters get to insert their political viewpoints while others do not. Lee Kaiwen has just told us that the purpose of sex is propagation -- that's the whole purpose! I guess some people still believe that.....I feel sorry for them. Susan ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From editor at mandolabar.yahoo.invalid Sun Oct 21 19:46:40 2007 From: editor at mandolabar.yahoo.invalid (Amanda Geist) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 14:46:40 -0500 Subject: [HPFGU-Feedback] Anger towards JKR (was Re: Great group / Quoted text) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Susan McGee: Lee Kaiwen has just told us that the purpose of sex is propagation -- that's the whole purpose! I guess some people still believe that.....I feel sorry for them. Amanda now: Not to leap into the middle here, but this has too much potential to be semantics. "Purpose" isn't an easy thing to speak to, when we won't even be able to agree if it means what an intelligent motive force intended versus what something happens to accomplish. This may have to be an agree-to-disagree situation. I think Lee is correct, but doesn't have the whole picture (note: I didn't read what he/she said; I have only your quote to go on). Sex does ensure the propagation of the species, and reproductive success is the name of the game if you are a believer in evolution. I dislike the "selfish gene" approach, but it does hold a certain amount of water. However, part of the reason it works-that sex ensures propagation-in humans, is that it feels great and acts to cement emotional bonds, keeping the adults together long enough for the young to have a higher probability of survival. It wouldn't serve its "purpose," as Lee identifies it, unless it fulfilled a whole bunch of other emotional and physical needs. In fact, I have found nothing in life that only had one purpose, down to chemical reactions and organ function. All of this to say that this is probably a "you're both right" type of thing. Susan, I thought of you a lot a couple of years ago, when I was reading "Mother Nature; Maternal Instincts and how they Shape the Human Species (http://www.amazon.com/Mother-Nature-Maternal-Instincts-Species/dp/034540893 4/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-0806207-8001411?ie=UTF8 &s=books&qid=1192995481&sr=8-1 ). It's a really good book, and takes a hard look at humans and how they interact with their young from an objective lens of primate behavior. It touches, among other things, on just what the use is for sex to feel good, and how in modern (read: historical versus prehistorical) human society it's almost a liability for it to feel good to a woman. It also looked at how "aunts" (I forget the term) as the main "secondary" caregivers to the young, not males, were really the way our species' reproductive strategy worked. At several points throughout, I wondered what your take would be. ~Amanda [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From willsonkmom at potioncat.yahoo.invalid Sun Oct 21 21:25:10 2007 From: willsonkmom at potioncat.yahoo.invalid (potioncat) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 21:25:10 -0000 Subject: The State of the List Questionaire - Oct 2007 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > ******************************************************************** > > 1. What has been your general impression of the list since the > release of DH? Potioncat: DH hit a nerve in the readership. People seem to lovee it, hate it or struggle with it. Many of the posts are emotion-based and 'discussion' seems to be more difficult than before. As difficult as it is to debate opinions, it's almost impossible to have a dicussion on emotions. > > > 2. Have you been posting since the release? Less than, as much as, or > more than you did before the release? If there is a change, what has > caused you to change? If you haven't been posting at all, or been > posting rarely, why do you think that is? Potioncat: I took a break from the list before DH came out. So, assuming my habits before the break, I'd say I'm posting less. Part of it is that there's nothing to predict or anticipate--and partly that the topics now are strongly opinionated. Which is OK, as long as free discussion is encouraged by all. (And partly that RL seems more pressing than it used to be.) > > > 3. Are you happy with the way the list is handled and/or the way > things are going at present? If you feel some action should be taken by the elves, what would you suggest? What suggestions would you give members in general to improve the list? What, if anything, have you tried to improve the list? Potioncat: Oh, bless you Elves, but what can you do? From time to time you come in to remind folk to play nice. It's up the folk, aint it? It would help if when each of us post, whether to vent or to discuss, that we write something someone can comment on. Or that at least, we expect comments. And it would be helpful if the next person keeps it unpersonal (impersonal?). "I hate chocolate." might get "You idiot! How can you hate chocolate? It's the best flavor in the world." or it might get, "I love chocolate. Why don't you like it?" but it would have been better to say, "I hate chocolate; it gives me hives." Actually, commenting on chocolate would be most unwise, as the elves would be duty bound to move your post as not being canon related. However, you could say, "I would hate to be Harry and to have to eat all that chocolate in PoA." Well, I've started a few light-hearted threads. I've posted a few, "now, now, let's all have some tea..." sort of posts. As for suggestions, I wonder if we need some new tags--or whatever you call them. You know, like SHIP or T-BAY warnings. I'd also like to suggest that as we post to threads we take a moment to see if the heading should be tweaked a bit. It's very interesting how much a topic can change over a few posts. It's difficult to follow one line of the thread if the heading to all the now disimilar posts are the same. (I cannot navigate the list of posts that are suppose to be the thread that show up under each post.) > > > 4. Now that we have all seven books and the speculation is over, > what do you see as the purpose of this list? What would you > imagine/want to see happening on the list a year from now? The purpose, I think is procreation. And that doesn't have to be fun-- -ask anyone who's ever gone through medically assisted fertility efforts. Oh, I'm so sorry. Wrong thread. The purpose is spirited discussion, and there's still lots to discuss. I'd like us all to be free to talk about our thoughts, insights, feelings, whatever... A year from now? Well, looks like we'll be discussing the latest tidbit from a JKR interview. I think the list will be very slow by then. I'd like to think that as a group we could have reunions or something. Hey gang, this is senior year. We're all about to go our separate ways. Better exchange addresses now, and enjoy the last semester while it's still going on. I appreciate the work done by the List-Elves. This has always been a great place to discuss, debate, laugh, cry. We members can back off, and even leave if we want to, but you elves have to show up for duty, read the posts and try to keep up. A box of Honeydukes assorted flavors for you all---just in case you don't like chocolate. Potioncat/Kathy From va32h at va32h.yahoo.invalid Sun Oct 21 23:56:38 2007 From: va32h at va32h.yahoo.invalid (va32h) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 23:56:38 -0000 Subject: Anger towards JKR (was Re: Great group / Quoted text) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-Feedback at yahoogroups.com, Schlobin1 at ... wrote: > Well, really Arianna, your response encapsulates the severe problems I have with the list. I am not the only adult who feels the same way. > It was almost funny when JKR said she got hate mail from grown-ups about the fact that Harry and Hermione didn't become romantic partners. On one of the lists, another grownup said it was horrible that DD was gay, she could have dealt with him being bisexual, but she wanted to maintain her romantic fantasies about him. > I think some people on the list have lost touch with reality. Seriously. > Here's JKR who gives millions to charity. She's written wonderful books about love, trust, fighting for justice and tolerance. She has an amazing imagination -- she's created a universe full of incredible creatures, history, mythology, etc. If you watch her read you can tell she loves her books and she oves children. She's done all kinds of amazing things for kids. > > On the list I've read that she's trying to get more attention and more money! She doesn't need any more attention - she gets more than most people in the universe. She has plenty of money - she's the richest woman in England. > Still, she stays true to her values. She loves her husband, he's obviously a great guy, and they are protecting their children from the spotlight. > > Yet everyone seems to want her to be perfect. Too many people are furious because the end to the books didn't match their fantasy or vision. > > Gosh, it's fine to be annoyed -- but then to turn around and viciously attack the author? Ychhh....To impute that she "callously destroyed" the universe? > Callously means that she did it to be nasty and mean? Do you really think that? Goodness gracious me! > > I also worry a little bit. Will some mentally ill fan attack JKR because she or he is angry that Hedwig was killed? Or that she never did tell us what individual would develop magical powers in later life? There's real fuel for the fire for emotionally disturbed individuals on the list. > > If I were running the list, I'd put out a plea for people to just calm down > a little bit. va32h: Wow. In your previous post you said the list was a little too mean spirited for your tastes and now you've just implied that people who complain about DH are out of touch with reality, emotionally disturbed, mentally ill, and may very well attack JKR! Goodness gracious, if I were running the list I'd have to plea for a stop to this "JKR is an amazing woman and no one is allowed to be critical of her" notion. I don't want JKR to be perfect (and I find it ironic that you accuse others of that in a post that goes on and on about how very perfect you think JKR is!). I have no clue what JKR's values are so I really don't know how true she stays to them. And I've never met her husband so I have no idea if he's a great guy or not. I think she's a human author and as such ought to be subject to the same criticism as any other human author. As for the list itself (to stay on topic), I think the elves do a fabulous job. There are posters who over-quote or don't tweak the title (I'm sure I'm guilty of hat too) but given the volume of posters, I think we have a very well-managed group in which the moderators do their jobs with out coming off as jackbooted thugs! My only suggestion might be to have a greater variety of topics - perhaps the elves could have a topic of the week? It seems that every month or so we end up back in the eternal Sirius V. Snape debate and I find that very boring. va32h From justcarol67 at justcarol67.yahoo.invalid Mon Oct 22 00:03:19 2007 From: justcarol67 at justcarol67.yahoo.invalid (Carol) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 00:03:19 -0000 Subject: The State of the List Questionaire - Oct 2007 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Carol responds: Thanks for the questionnaire. Let me just say that I expressed unhappiness with all the harping on the main list on OT Chatter and was criticized for it. I hope that my honest reactions will be more welcome here. May I just say, first, that I'm not entirely happy with JKR herself right now. I wish she'd stop giving interviews instead of trying to play God and control the interpretation of her book. IMO, once the books are in print, they become the intellectual property of the general public (I don't mean that we can plagiarize or violate copyright laws, but their interpretation should not be subject to the whim of the author). So my own posts to HPfGu are no doubt colored by my feeling of mild resentment. It's difficlut to interpret the text with the author standing over my shoulder telling me what to think about Harry or Snape or DD or even Luna. Sorry. Had to get that off my chest. > 1. What has been your general impression of the list since the release of DH? Carol: At first, we had the expected flood of posts reacting to the book, good and bad, how our expectations were or were not met, etc. All well and good. Not much interpretation at that point, but that was to be expected. But after awhile, it seems to me, the focus shifted to complaints, including attacks on JKR as a writer and a person and even on her editors for not catching her numerous inconsistencies. Posters were, IMO, confusing their own expectations with what the book "should" have contained and were more concerned with what wasn't there than what JKR had actually written. I wanted more analysis of the text, not Wikipedia articles on what constitutes a psychopath or how Calvinism differs from antinomianism. Not that it isn't fine to bring in concepts from outside the text, but it seems to me that it should be in relation to the text. (I hope that doesn't make me a hypocrite for bringing in Roland Barthes or Wimsatt and Beardsley: my point in doing so is that we don't need to consider the author's intention (to the extent that it can be discovered or has been revealed) as definitive or even as important in interpreting a literary work. As I understand it, the main list is supposed to be canon-based, and I feel strongly that we've shifted away from that focus, either because of extreme disappointment and resentment on the part of some posters or because of JKR herself leading readers by the nose under the impression that what's in her imagination but did not appear in the books is somehow canonical. The fact that this is the last book has, of course, made a difference in the posts. There's no more speculation about the questions that were so important to us after HBP (whether Harry is a Horcrux, where Snape's loyalties lie), etc., but that should not, in itself, prevent us from actually looking at the book to see what's there. We need new topics and I haven't been seeing many (other than some promising threads on Harry's search for truth that began well but petered out). Are we tired of the list? Are we to disappointed with the book, or, alternatively, too satisfied with it, to actually analyze it? Is finding fault the extent of the literary "criticism" (which ought to mean analysis) that we're going to find onlist? I don't want gripes about JKR's view of Slytherin. I want JKR left out of it, actually. And I think that political views color the discussion as well. Posters of a certain political stamp (and I'm not going to specify because I don't want to offend anyone) seem to think that to disagree with their views of how the WW "ought" to be is somehow to be intolerant. Perhaps those posters should consider the possibility that they, too, are being intolerant in expecting either JKR or other readers to share their views. > > > 2. Have you been posting since the release? Less than, as much as, or more than you did before the release? If there is a change, what has caused you to change? If you haven't been posting at all, or been posting rarely, why do you think that is? Carol responds: Well, you know me! I'm compelled to post. The only thing keeping me from my five-post quota (aside from personal considerations) is the occasional slow day when there's not much to respond to. (I suppose I could introduce a new topic, but I'm hard-pressed to think of one, and I suspect that other posters are in the same position.) Also, I don't much care for joining in other people's ping pong matches except to insert my two cents or attempt a compromise, which rarely works. > > 3. Are you happy with the way the list is handled and/or the way things are going at present? If you feel some action should be taken by the elves, what would you suggest? What suggestions would you give members in general to improve the list? What, if anything, have you tried to improve the list? Carol: I've tried asking posters to supply canon to support their arguments and had my hand slapped for it. So I suppose the best I can do is ask the Elves to reiterate the rules relating to civility, posting format, and canon-based arguments. (Maybe we could ban Wikipedia entries or limit the length of quotes from outside sources--including essays on literary criticism, definitions, and whatever other things I like to bring into my own posts. Trying to be objective here and include my own posts in my analysis of the present failings of the list.) > > 4. Now that we have all seven books and the speculation is over, > what do you see as the purpose of this list? What would you > imagine/want to see happening on the list a year from now? > Carol responds: Easy! The purpose of the main list is to analyze the books using canon-based arguments. I'm happy that we have the chapter discussions to help us maintain our focus, but I'd like to see those readers who are still fans of the books closely examining the texts to see, for example, what motifs and symbols and themes pervade the books, what we've overlooked, and so on. I've tried posts on narrative technique, but I suppose they're old hat to long-time list members. There are other ways to look at a book, and so far, we don't seem to be getting beyond our subjective reactions. What I want from this list, and don't seem to be getting post-DH, is intellectual stimulation. Carol, wanting to talk about the books themselves and not JKR, whose characters no longer exist solely in her mind but belong to the world From Schlobin1 at susanmcgee48176.yahoo.invalid Mon Oct 22 01:33:01 2007 From: Schlobin1 at susanmcgee48176.yahoo.invalid (Schlobin1 at susanmcgee48176.yahoo.invalid) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 21:33:01 EDT Subject: [HPFGU-Feedback] Anger towards JKR (was Re: Great group / Quoted text) Message-ID: In a message dated 10/21/2007 4:57:06 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, va32h at ... writes: Wow. In your previous post you said the list was a little too mean spirited for your tastes and now you've just implied that people who complain about DH are out of touch with reality, emotionally disturbed, mentally ill, and may very well attack JKR! Goodness gracious, if I were running the list I'd have to plea for a stop to this "JKR is an amazing woman and no one is allowed to be critical of her" notion. Oh goodness no.....I'm not saying...please forgive me if I misspoke that no one should be allowed to criticize the work and the literature...I'd just like there to be a little less personal attacks on the author's character and motives..... And what I was saying, I'm sorry that I wasn't more clear, that when there is an atmosphere and permission for constant and out of touch with reality attacks on an author, that people who have mental health issues use that as fodder, and could become dangerous. I am not suggesting that people who complain about DH are out of touch with reality! I have a whole list of complaints about DH. Complain away about DH! I'm talking about people who impute the most horrible intent to JKR, who attack her personally.....who impute to her the most evil and machiavellian motives.... Susan ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid Mon Oct 22 02:10:16 2007 From: catlady at catlady_de_los_angeles.yahoo.invalid (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 02:10:16 -0000 Subject: the survey Message-ID: I visited FB now, because I read the announcement, because, while I still can say nothing about the hard work of the Elves and Moderators except: "Wow! You manage to keep this list polite and literate!", I am not totally happy. I'm such a verbose reply-er that I'm doing it here, on FB. Frank D : << Just one minor irritant for me is that, in general, too much of the previous subject matter is being repeated. >> Yes, I often wish that more listies would learn to snip. But that is nothing new. << When you have two or three paragraphs of quoted text with all kinds of pov's and topics, and then the current poster says something like, "Yes, I agree!" or "That's not the way I see it," >> Actually, that's a violation of the rule against one line replies, especially "I agree" and "LOL". Two paragraphs of quote followed by a reply doesn't bother me anywhere near as much as an original post and ten replies dangling on the bottom. Susan McGee : << One of the problems with the list is its volume - don't know if you can do anything about that! >> Actually, for the last month or so, I've been very happy about the "Post-DH letdown" because it has shrunk the number of posts to a manageable size. This week the Elves could have shrunk the size of Main List a little by moving all the OT posts to OT list -- whether JKR should just shut up, whether her statement that DD is gay will make the books less popular or will give comfort to glbt children, what is the purpose of sex. Then we could complain about the volume on OT list. But of that discussion, only whether DD being gay WAS shown in the books or how does it change what is shown in the books is really about the books. << I come and go on the list -- the last time I remember going was because the level of virulent comments cast by HH shippers towards RH shippers and vice versa. >> There have been many episodes of group virulence on list. H/H versus H/R was only the first I recall (and I think the H/H-ers were very much more nasty to poor Ron than to H/R-ers). Multiple episodes of Snape-lovers versus Snape-haters. At least one episode of Sirius- lovers versus Sirius-haters. An episode of some people expressing hatred (not merely disappointment) at DH. Quickly followed by the current flap over the 'Dumbledore is gay' remark. I don't think I ever like the virulence, I dislike the nasty tones of voice, but I more strongly dislike the repetitiveness. Not just the endless "Is so!" "Is not!" posts, which some people call 'tennis matches' because of the volleying, but the number of people who feel compelled to join in. Poo, even I sometimes feel compelled to join in. Susan McGee : << I notice that some posters get to insert their political viewpoints while others do not. >> If I recall correctly (ELVES?), the rule against giving RL political opinions on list (when on topic) was repealed about 2 years ago because someone persuaded that moderators that we're all grown-ups who can stay polite even when politics is mentioned. Some people CHOOSE to insert RL political viewpoints and some CHOOSE not to. I choose not to (except for the very occasional "You know I disagree") because *I* can't stay polite while discussing politics. Va32h : << In your previous post you said the list was a little too mean spirited for your tastes and now you've just implied that people who complain about DH are out of touch with reality, emotionally disturbed, mentally ill, and may very well attack JKR! >> I don't see that implied there at all. She implied, well, pretty well stated, that the woman on another list who spent two paragraphs protesting that JKR mustn't make Dumbledore gay because Dumbledore is God and a (male) gay God would only care about male created beings is out of touch with reality -- and not because of that person's theory about what if God were gay, but because of thinking that Dumbledore is God, rather than a fictional character in a story. Hey, if DD is God, does JKR have the power to make God gay? She implied, well, pretty well stated, that when many adults are writing hate letters to JKR (which I didn't read in the news because I am a poor reader of news), some of them might move from writing hate letters to physically attacking. That is far from implying that everyone who didn't like DH is writing hate letters to JKR or even posting "I hate Rowling. I wish she would die and go to Hell" on maililng lists/chat rooms/etc. I fear that every celebrity is in danger of being physically attacked by a deranged person, and Rowling definitely is a celebrity now. The reason might be because Jodie Foster told him/her to do it (I'm fantasizing that you're old enough to get the reference) or because rich Rowling refused to invest in this person's perpetual motion invention or because Rowling is pro-gay or anti-capital punishment, or because Rowling killed Mad-Eye Moody, which whom the assassin was in love. All deranged reasons. << It seems that every month or so we end up back in the eternal Sirius V. Snape debate and I find that very boring. >> See my last reply to Susan's first post for my opinion. No, don't, I'll spout off here, too. It seems to me that Snape lovers versus Snape haters is more endless than Snape lovers versus Sirius lovers. *All* the tennis match arguments get boring to me, even the old (and small) one about whether Hagrid's wand was really broken when he was expelled or did DD just pretend to break it because he knew Hagrid was really innocent and didn't want him to be deprived of a wand. (I don't know why that person was so sure that it was DD who did the alleged breaking -- Dippet was Headmaster then.) Sometimes I find non-tennis-match threads boring, not just tennis-match ones. But I have this strong irrational emotion that, just as no one is required to find all the posts on list interesting, no one is required to post only things that are interesting to ALL list members. I have such a bad emotional reaction to the word 'boring' that I try not to use it myself. I get emotional when I read a post that says other posts are 'boring'. Carol : << I expressed unhappiness with all the harping on the main list on OT Chatter and was criticized for it. >> I'm sorry, I don't remember that. I *do* think it's pretty cool how you've come to terms with Snape's death and post calm and reasoned discussions on the lists. Now I wish I'd tried harder to work that into one of my list replies so you won't think I'm just saying that because I'm about to disagree with you. << I wish she'd stop giving interviews instead of trying to play God and control the interpretation of her book. IMO, once the books are in print, they become the intellectual property of the general public >> Well, obviously some people do want interviews, or they wouldn't have entered the competition for tickets to her few live appearances or read the news articles about what she said in them. *I* am one of those some people. I want interviews. I want all her notes (perhaps turned over to Lexicon Steve to prepare an annotated edition). I want that Encyclopedia (altho' she should have someone like Lexicon Steve as editor). To me, so much fascinating stuff came out of her head onto the pages, I want to check whether the rest of the stuff in her head is also fascinating. I agree with what you said about the intellectual public domain (suppose Shakespeare hadn't been allowed to write about Romeo and Juliet, or King Lear, or Hamlet, because all those plots were still under copyright of some Italian, Giraldus Cambrensis, Saxo Grammaticus; suppose Milton hadn't been allowed to write about Adam and Eve because that plot was still under copyright to -- God's lawyer, I suppose). As intellectual public domain, I don't have to believe anything she says. Including what's written in the books. << I wanted more analysis of the text, not Wikipedia articles on what constitutes a psychopath or how Calvinism differs from antinomianism. Not that it isn't fine to bring in concepts from outside the text, but it seems to me that it should be in relation to the text. >> Some of the quotations from Wikipedia are too long and should be replaced by a URL. How long is 'too long' is subjective. I think that the discussion of Calvinism and antinomianism was highly relevant to the book discussion of whether being Sorted into Slytherin proves you're evil. I think that discussing psychopathology is highly relevant to the books in terms of understanding Tom Riddle and whether he ever did have a choice. I like the range of things I've learned from these lists. << I'd like to see those readers who are still fans of the books closely examining the texts to see, for example, what motifs and symbols and themes pervade the books, what we've overlooked, and so on. >> I might be interested to read what you and others think about motifs and symbols and themes. I'm not likely to write in that discussion. Even tho' I read Northrup Frye's ANATOMY OF CRITICISM four times in a row when my friend lent it to me when I was 30, there is a *reason* that I've never taken a Lit class that wasn't required and I couldn't get out of it any other way. I like the fanficcy things, like can we figure out the principles by which Potterverse magic works. I have no idea what is now the purpose of this list. I just figured I'd stick around and find out. If it turns out that the new purpose is a place for people to vent their hatred, I'll leave. From lizzyben04 at lizzyben04.yahoo.invalid Mon Oct 22 01:53:42 2007 From: lizzyben04 at lizzyben04.yahoo.invalid (lizzyben04) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 01:53:42 -0000 Subject: The State of the List Questionaire - Oct 2007 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > 1. What has been your general impression of the list since the > release of DH? It's probably more polarized, with the "love it"/"hate it" crowds expressing their opinions & trying to convince the other camps. "I wanted more analysis of the text, not Wikipedia articles on what constitutes a psychopath or how Calvinism differs from antinomianism." I guess this is a reference to me. Sorry. The thing is, everyone has different areas that interest them, & not everyone is going to agree. That's the cool thing about a list with diversity of opinion - everyone approaches the text with a different point of view & different interests. Some people are interested in literary analysis, some in political/sociological issues of elf rights, etc., some in the religious symbolism, some just in shipping Draco! It's like a rowdy bar w/ten different conversations at once, so there's bound to be a few brawls. > 2. Have you been posting since the release? Less than, as much as, or > more than you did before the release? If there is a change, what has > caused you to change? If you haven't been posting at all, or been > posting rarely, why do you think that is? Somewhat less; though it seems like some people stopped posting altogether as soon as DH came out. Once the book came out, there is less to discuss in terms of speculation/theories about what's to come, and that was always a large part of the fun. > 3. Are you happy with the way the list is handled and/or the way > things are going at present? If you feel some action should be taken > by the elves, what would you suggest? What suggestions would you give > members in general to improve the list? What, if anything, have you > tried to improve the list? Probably discouraging personal attacks, though the elves already do that. Some people have reported getting "flames" off-list from other posters, though I'm not sure what the elves could do about that. Maybe it'd be good to have a "weekly topic" to discuss (beyond the chapter discussions) to ensure that the list doesn't fall into a rut. (Snape vs. Sirius, etc). > 4. Now that we have all seven books and the speculation is over, > what do you see as the purpose of this list? What would you > imagine/want to see happening on the list a year from now? I'd see the purpose as more literary & character analysis, & less about theories & speculation. TBAY's day has passed, sadly. Although with the interviews & encyclopedia, it's starting to look like there'll be even more to talk about. It seems like traffic will die down once the publicity has faded, though I imagine there will always be people interested in HP. lizzyben From arielock at arielock2001.yahoo.invalid Mon Oct 22 04:19:58 2007 From: arielock at arielock2001.yahoo.invalid (arielock2001) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 04:19:58 -0000 Subject: Anger towards JKR (was Re: Great group / Quoted text) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Susan McGee wrote: > > I guess it's fine that lots of people don't like DH, but how can you be so > > nasty towards an author who has created a universe that you care so deeply > > about? I (Arianna) replied: > Because she callously destroyed that universe in DH. Susan McGee responded: > Well, really Arianna, your response encapsulates the severe problems I have > with the list. Arianna: I've never said anything bad about JKR. All I am saying is that I understand why people are angry at her (IMHO, She's a perfectly lovely woman who happened to write a book that I detest). DH has ruined my enjoyment of all things HP. PoA was my favorite book. I don't think I'll ever want to read it again. (Snip) Susan McGee: >( JKR)'s written wonderful books > about love, trust, fighting for justice and tolerance. Arianna: That is where we disagree. Without playing Harry-Potter-as-Rorschach-Test (though that actually might be fun...) or addressing plot holes, inconsistencies and the plain fact that she hadn't set up the "Deathly Hallows" properly (JKR might realize that her NAQ about why Dumbledore had James' invisibility cloak showed that she hadn't given readers any indication that it was unique), I found DH filled with fear, betrayals, abuses of trust (Dumbledore much?), inheritance over choice (at the end of the seven book series, Harry's ancestry is CRUCIAL to the plot line of the story as JKR wrote it: Harry didn't earn the cloak, he inherited it through his father's bloodline), intolerance and death after needless, senseless, heartbreaking death. We get enough of that just turning on the news. Susan McGee: (snip) > Gosh, it's fine to be annoyed -- but then to turn around and viciously > attack the author? >Ychhh....To impute that she "callously destroyed" the universe? > Callously means that she did it to be nasty and mean? Arianna: Actually, that is not quite what callous means. It means, "showing or having an insensitive and cruel disregard for others. i.e. his callous comments about the murder made me shiver. His callous disregard for other people's feelings" If you are able, please watch this Dateline interview with JKR http://video.the-leaky- cauldron.org/video/828. In another (I'm sorry, I do not know which one) she admitted (jokingly, granted) that she must be "ruthless" in order to create a heartwarming children's story. She also acknowledged that some people would absolutely hate this book: I'm one of them. I stand by my opinion that JKR acted callously by killing off beloved characters. Stating this opinion is not a vicious attack on the author. Susan McGee: >Do you really think that? Goodness gracious me! Arianna: Well, she killed two characters she hadn't originally intended to kill (Lupin and Tonks) so that she could have an orphan. That's pretty callous to me. JKR said that she wanted to mirror Harry's situation by creating another orphan (Dateline, other interviews) so we, the readers, could see the true horror of what Voldemort is doing. I don't think any neurologically normal person needs a book ::cough:: to tell them that murder is bad. The deaths of Lupin (a long-suffering young man who had lived a lonely life and finally found love and a family), Tonks (a young woman who had recently married and had a baby), Fred (a teenager who had his whole life ahead of him), Colin (a child!), Dobby (the lone symbol of freedom for an enslaved race), Ted Tonks (because Andromeda wouldn't have suffered enough just losing her daughter? She now has no family other than Teddy and Narcissa.) were not necessary for the final outcome of the story. Mad-Eye, Harry's pet Hedwig, Crabbe... Ugh... It gets worse; she didn't need to kill Sirius. She just needed him out of the way (so that he couldn't give Harry any bad advice or recognize Regalus' handwriting). She could have gotten him out of the way by having him arrested at the end of OotP (he was in the Ministry) and sent back to Azkaban for the duration of the last two books (was he ever acquitted? In the U.S., aren't wrongfully convicted people accused of murder kept in prison until the verdict is officially overturned? Disbelief has been suspended: It would have worked just fine. ::shakes head:: Here's the deal: if JKR intended for readers to care about the characters, then it shouldn't be surprising that readers saddened or disgusted when kills them. -Arianna From orphan_ann at or.phan_ann.yahoo.invalid Mon Oct 22 14:42:39 2007 From: orphan_ann at or.phan_ann.yahoo.invalid (or.phan_ann) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 14:42:39 -0000 Subject: The State of the List Questionaire - Oct 2007 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I've only been a member since about Easter, so I'm afraid this may not be very useful or reliable, but here goes, anyway: > 1. What has been your general impression of the list since the > release of DH? Well, now that speculation is dead, people are turning more to analysis (eg how JKR treats the Slytherins), and this seems to me to be bringing RL opinions in with it, and a general lack of detachment from the text. If you identify as a Slytherin, and think JKR's treated them badly, you're going to take that personally. In my opinion the list has got markedly less civil since DH, and this is one reason why. The fact that canon is now "closed" means that there's also less space for people to argue that Peter loved Lily, or whatever - there's no point in arguing about definitely anti-canonical subjects. (It can be fun, though.) > 2. Have you been posting since the release? Less than, as much as, > or more than you did before the release? If there is a change, what > has caused you to change? If you haven't been posting at all, or > been posting rarely, why do you think that is? I stopped posting, and pretty much stopped reading, after DH because there were too many posts for me. Since then I've only said a few things, but I find myself much less interested in the series now that it's over. (I confess myself somewhat disappointed with DH.) > 3. Are you happy with the way the list is handled and/or the way > things are going at present? If you feel some action should be taken > by the elves, what would you suggest? What suggestions would you > give members in general to improve the list? What, if anything, have > you tried to improve the list? I'm perfectly happy with the list handling per se. Thank you, Elves. In general, I think the list lives up to its "for Grown Ups" tag. I would like some listies to be a bit politer, and perhaps to realise when they're involved in "ping-pong" opinion-based arguments that aren't going anywhere. But we all do things we regret, so I've nothing harsh to say. > 4. Now that we have all seven books and the speculation is over, > what do you see as the purpose of this list? What would you > imagine/want to see happening on the list a year from now? Since you ask... something that's been exercising me pretty much since I joined the list (in the runup to DH, remember) is what would happen when DH came out. The list does seem to be dwindling in volume fairly quickly: there were 3,000 posts in July, 2,445 in August, 1,083 in September, and 644 so far this month, bidding fair for just under a thousand at the end of the month. This has been somewhat inflated because of the gay!Dumbledore reveal, and even so it looks like we're in the quietest month since May 2002 (909 messages.) So what will become of HPfGU? Well, unless JKR reveals the Giant Squid to be gay, it's going to fade away, which is a shame because even if we've nothing much to say about HP, we still have interesting things to say about other stuff on OTC. So here's a modest proposal (no, seriously): the History of HPfGU recounts the creation of daughter lists like OTC over the years. Perhaps when main-list postings become too low they could be folded back in? We'd need a few more prefixes, but it might help keep posting at a critical mass. Ann, realising that that's going to be pretty controversial, and just asking what everyone thinks of it. From Schlobin1 at susanmcgee48176.yahoo.invalid Mon Oct 22 15:33:44 2007 From: Schlobin1 at susanmcgee48176.yahoo.invalid (Schlobin1 at susanmcgee48176.yahoo.invalid) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 11:33:44 EDT Subject: [HPFGU-Feedback] Anger towards JKR (was Re: Great group / Quoted text) Message-ID: In a message dated 10/21/2007 9:09:56 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, arielock at ... writes: I don't think any neurologically normal person needs a book ::cough:: to tell them that murder is bad. Well of course, but she didn't murder them, you know.... She wrote in a book that they were killed by Death Eaters in a war. Susan ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From frankd14612 at frankd14612.yahoo.invalid Mon Oct 22 19:31:04 2007 From: frankd14612 at frankd14612.yahoo.invalid (Frank D) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 19:31:04 -0000 Subject: the survey In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Frank D: --- In HPFGU-Feedback at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: > > Quoting Frank D : > > << Just one minor irritant for me is that, in general, too much of the previous subject matter is being repeated. >> > << When you have two or three paragraphs of quoted text with all kinds of pov's and topics, and then the current poster says something like, "Yes, I agree!" or "That's not the way I see it," >> > Catlady: > Actually, that's a violation of the rule against one line replies, especially "I agree" and "LOL". > You're correct, Catlady. It is my oversight that I didn't finish my thought properly. I didn't mean to say that simple agreement or disagreement is _all_ they expressed (which clearly would be "against the rules"). The point I was trying to make, which I should have added, is: "and then go on with their reply without indicating which part of the statement they are responding to." My problem is that it is time-consuming and frustrating to have to figure out just which statement in the quote brought about which response in the reply. I find that I'm reading each multi-topic quote multiple times to be sure I have zeroed in on the real gist of what's being responded to. I agree in advance that this may seem trivial, but it becomes more of an annoyance when you are going through many such posts in succession. In short, it would be wonderful if people would make it easier for their readers to follow the give-and-take of their views by quoting and responding to _specific_ statements in the foregoing quoted material, not just to the whole thing in general. Hope I'm making myself clear this time. Frank D From arielock at arielock2001.yahoo.invalid Mon Oct 22 21:27:35 2007 From: arielock at arielock2001.yahoo.invalid (arielock2001) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 21:27:35 -0000 Subject: The State of the List Questionaire - Oct 2007 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Orphan Ann made a "modest proposal" ;-) > Perhaps when main-list postings become too low they could be folded > back in? We'd need a few more prefixes, but it might help keep posting > at a critical mass. > > Ann, realising that that's going to be pretty controversial, and just > asking what everyone thinks of it. Arianna adds her $.11:* That sounds like a very good idea. It does seem like more prefixes might be helpful in general, so that people can easily find subjects they want to read and skip over the ones they don't. -Arianna (*You know the old saying: You can take the girl out of alt.tv.homicide, but...) From arielock at arielock2001.yahoo.invalid Mon Oct 22 22:35:53 2007 From: arielock at arielock2001.yahoo.invalid (arielock2001) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 22:35:53 -0000 Subject: Anger towards JKR (was Re: Great group / Quoted text) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Susan McGee and I (Arianna) were discussing DH, and wound up talking about two totally different things: > --- In HPFGU-Feedback at yahoogroups.com, Schlobin1@ wrote: > > On one of the lists, another grownup said it was horrible > that DD was gay, she could have dealt with him being bisexual, but she > wanted to maintain her romantic fantasies about him. > I think some people on the list have lost touch with reality. Seriously. (snip) > I also worry a little bit. Will some mentally ill fan attack JKR.. (snip) > If I were running the list, I'd put out a plea for people to just > calm down > a little bit. Arianna: Actually, Susan, I think I see now what you originally meant. This afternoon I read more of the posts than I normally do and one poster (that I had not read before) did give me pause. I suspect that Susan was referring specifically to one or two list members, NOT to the large group of people who disliked DH and are disappointed/ annoyed/whatever at the outcome of the series. Let me know if we are now on the same page, Susan, 'cause I think your original post was of the "If you think this unstable person might be you, then it's not" variety. Unfortunately, if the one or two people in question are emotionally unstable and are (how shall I put this delicately), reading the series as though it were a documentary or The Newer Testament, there is really no way to calm them down. I don't think the list elves can really do anything about it. -Arianna (who still thinks DH was a violent mess, and wonders if "Galaxy Quest" will be on TV soon, 'cause that was a really funny movie...) From Schlobin1 at susanmcgee48176.yahoo.invalid Mon Oct 22 23:38:59 2007 From: Schlobin1 at susanmcgee48176.yahoo.invalid (Schlobin1 at susanmcgee48176.yahoo.invalid) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 19:38:59 EDT Subject: [HPFGU-Feedback] Anger towards JKR (was Re: Great group / Quoted text) Message-ID: In a message dated 10/22/2007 3:36:26 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, arielock at ... writes: I suspect that Susan was referring specifically to one or two list members, NOT to the large group of people who disliked DH and are disappointed/ annoyed/whatever at the outcome of the series. Yes, although I think it's more than one or two list members, I was NOT referring to the large group of people who disliked or were disappointed by DH. Susan ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From arielock at arielock2001.yahoo.invalid Tue Oct 23 00:46:29 2007 From: arielock at arielock2001.yahoo.invalid (arielock2001) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 00:46:29 -0000 Subject: The State of the List Questionaire - Oct 2007 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-Feedback at yahoogroups.com, "hpfgu_elves" wrote: > 3. Are you happy with the way the list is handled and/or the way > things are going at present? If you feel some action should be taken > by the elves, what would you suggest? What suggestions would you give > members in general to improve the list? I was until now. It seems that a small amount of common sense could be exteneded to TIME SENSITIVE posts. I tried to send this post to HPfGU : Subject: Olbermann discussing DD's sexuality NOW (8pm EST) "Hi all, If you get MSNBC, Keith Olbermann is going to be discussing JKR's comments about DD's sexuality tonight. He's on now (8pm EST) and is rerun at midnight EST. Thought ya'all might like to know, Arianna" It was returned by Marvin Elf. It would make sense that those who have been discussing this for days might have enjoyed seeing the discussion on TV. Honestly, how is this not on topic? -Arianna ******************* From: Marvin Elf <....> To: Arianna <...> Re: Message Returned, Please Submit to OT Chatter Date: 23rd October 2007 (GMT) Dear Arianna, I return your below attached message and also rejected the duplicate with a slightly amended title as it is off topic for the main list. Our sister group Off Topic Chatter is the place for this type of message. The address for that is: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/ Kindly take note. Yours etc. Marvin Elf for the HPfGU List Elves From stevejjen at ariadnemajic.yahoo.invalid Tue Oct 23 02:02:35 2007 From: stevejjen at ariadnemajic.yahoo.invalid (Jen Reese) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 02:02:35 -0000 Subject: The State of the List Questionaire - Oct 2007 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Oops, sorry for the accidental re-posting of the questions...twice, *blushes*). > 1. What has been your general impression of the list since the > release of DH? Jen: It's different, I used to feel a sense of camaraderie with fellow members that isn't there as much now. Maybe it was that sense of 'we're all in this together' and now with no more books that feeling is gone? I'm not sure. Some of the fun and lighthearted banter prior to DH is missing. Things are more serious, and there doesn't seem to be as much courtesy such as people asking questions of each other to see if the point is understood, or apologizing if an unintended message came through to another member. Since DH I've also noticed an increase in posts directed toward other members or talking about fans in general instead of the books. I'll second what Potioncat said about discussions on emotion - very difficult. > 2. Have you been posting since the release? Less than, as much as, > or more than you did before the release? If there is a change, what > has caused you to change? If you haven't been posting at all, or > been posting rarely, why do you think that is? I'm posting less due to life circumstances and the reasons above. The list has been my main hobby for several years and it's hard to see it changing (or what I perceive as a big change anyway). I've also backed off because my frustration was reflected in my posts and that meant it was time for a break. > 3. Are you happy with the way the list is handled and/or the way > things are going at present? If you feel some action should be > taken by the elves, what would you suggest? What suggestions would > you give members in general to improve the list? What, if anything, > have you tried to improve the list? I can't really say much since I was an elf myself up until last week lol! I'll leave that question for others. As for the last part, I've attempted to post a few times with new topics that haven't been discussed much or replied to topics that aren't getting as much mileage as others. This is a good time to give a big 'thanks' to members like Potioncat, Mike, and Bart (and others I'm probably forgetting), who consistently try to inject some lighthearted moments into the action. I like the idea about having a topic for the week. It wouldn't have to be all elves either, members could volunteer. > 4. Now that we have all seven books and the speculation is over, > what do you see as the purpose of this list? What would you > imagine/want to see happening on the list a year from now? If the list slows down enough at some point, it would be cool to see OTC rolled back into main like Ann mentioned. Until then, I liked Potioncat's idea about identifying new tags similar to TBAY or SHIP that might be used to separate certain discussions. This seems to happen naturally at other groups using message-board type discussion groups instead of a group like ours where everything is mixed together (thinking about TLC's various forums for one). I brainstormed a couple of subjects that might work: 1) Liked/hated the book - general impressions of series overall with more relaxed rules for discussion. 2) Strict canon discussion - meaning members participating are likely bringing in quotes and sticking very closely to the books. Hmm, that's all that comes to mind at the moment. Jen From horridporrid03 at horridporrid03.yahoo.invalid Wed Oct 24 22:07:20 2007 From: horridporrid03 at horridporrid03.yahoo.invalid (horridporrid03) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 22:07:20 -0000 Subject: The State of the List Questionaire - Oct 2007 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > 1. What has been your general impression of the list since the > release of DH? Betsy Hp: Obviously there are a lot more dissappointed folks, which I think changed the tenur of the list. It's hard to get into deep discussions about character and/or world building when you think the entire thing has come crashing down around your ears. And I think the list reflects that. However... > 2. Have you been posting since the release? Less than, as much as, > or more than you did before the release? If there is a change, what > has caused you to change? If you haven't been posting at all, or > been posting rarely, why do you think that is? Betsy Hp: I haven't been reading the list like I used to. IOWs, there could be deep character and/or world building discussions going on that I've completely missed. In which case, good! (Um, good that people are having and enjoying such discussions, not that I missed them.) I also feel like I've been posting less and less. Mainly because I dislike DH so much. And while I've been very interested in working out exactly *what* went wrong for me, I'm trying not to be a troll. Which is part of the reason I've only participated in some threads. > 3. Are you happy with the way the list is handled and/or the way > things are going at present? If you feel some action should be > taken by the elves, what would you suggest? What suggestions would > you give members in general to improve the list? What, if anything, > have you tried to improve the list? Betsy Hp: I think the list has been doing as well as can be expected. (I realize this reflects my personal view point, but because I think DH was pretty much a mess, I think there's not much there to discuss, and no amount of tweaking can force it.) Of course, the discussion going on right now about Dumbledore has gotten a bit ugly, but I'm betting there's a lot of behind the scenes elf-work going on to try and drag the list back into civility. Go Elves! > 4. Now that we have all seven books and the speculation is over, > what do you see as the purpose of this list? What would you > imagine/want to see happening on the list a year from now? Betsy Hp: I'd say this is still a list to discuss the Potter series. Sure, the speculation part is fairly over. (Though of course, folks can always speculate about stuff JKR doesn't explicitly state; there just won't be any confirmation.) I do think the discussion rate will die down and that folding the OT stuff in (as previously suggested) is a good idea. But I think that as long as people are reading and enjoying the Potter series, there will probably be some discussion occuring. Betsy Hp From dama.silmariel at a_silmariel.yahoo.invalid Sat Oct 27 12:22:17 2007 From: dama.silmariel at a_silmariel.yahoo.invalid (silmariel) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 14:22:17 +0200 Subject: [HPFGU-Feedback] Re: The State of the List Questionaire - Oct 2007 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56f2b65c0710270522r6f7c2efeu5e5da708acba6ada@...> > > 3. Are you happy with the way the list is handled and/or the way > > things are going at present? If you feel some action should be taken > > by the elves, what would you suggest? What suggestions would you give > > members in general to improve the list? What, if anything, have you > > tried to improve the list? > lizzyben: > Probably discouraging personal attacks, though the elves already do > that. Some people have reported getting "flames" off-list from other > posters, though I'm not sure what the elves could do about that. Maybe > it'd be good to have a "weekly topic" to discuss (beyond the chapter > discussions) to ensure that the list doesn't fall into a rut. (Snape > vs. Sirius, etc). > The weekly topic is a great idea, I get bored with chapter discussions but there are always some questions that I'd like to see as separated threads. Silmariel From annemehr at annemehr.yahoo.invalid Tue Oct 30 15:22:23 2007 From: annemehr at annemehr.yahoo.invalid (Annemehr) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 15:22:23 -0000 Subject: The State of the List Questionaire - Oct 2007 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sorry it's taken me so long to respond, but it's taken me a while to get my general feeling about things down into concrete words... > 1. What has been your general impression of the list since the > release of DH? > Annemehr: Well, there *is* a certain level of distress coming through in the posts, as people have observed. Some are airing their disappointment with DH itself, and some of the others are upset the fact that the people who don't like DH are posting. In the old days, there *were* people who didn't like the way certain things were tending in the story, but as there were more books to come, the ones who stuck with the series were busily analysing those things that piqued them to see if they could predict that JKR would bring them to a satisfying resolution. Now that canon is closed, there is nothing left to do but discuss what is written, for good or ill, and I think it's perfectly healthy if those who see negative things write about them. Their posts are just as legitimate as those on the positive side. What really perplexes me is why some people are so upset to see the negative analyses. It's almost as though they themselves *know* there are plenty of flaws in plot and theme and they desperately want everyone to shut up about them so they can go on ignoring them as best they can. Okay, I can't say that for a fact, but it really seems so if, as they say, such posts are going to "ruin" DH for them. Otherwise, why not refute those posts, or pass them by and post something to their own taste? How could a post panning DH that has no truth in it *ruin* the book for them? It'd be like allowing the book-burning, anti-witchcraft loonies ruin the series for you - which certainly never happened to any of us before. In other words, methinks they do protest too much! Not that I want to stop them from protesting, really, but my point is I don't want the list censored to make them more comfortable. And the fact that this questionnaire is here at all makes me guess that this issue is one of the reasons behind it. > > 2. Have you been posting since the release? Less than, as much as, or > more than you did before the release? If there is a change, what has > caused you to change? If you haven't been posting at all, or been > posting rarely, why do you think that is? > Annemehr: I have posted some since the release. It's probably at about the same rate as I posted between OoP and DH, which was in spurts. I've hit a busy stretch with other things in RL, but I've been enjoying reading people's interpretations of the series, and have a few posts of my own swirling in my mind...they may see the light of day yet! > > 3. Are you happy with the way the list is handled and/or the way > things are going at present? If you feel some action should be taken > by the elves, what would you suggest? What suggestions would you give > members in general to improve the list? What, if anything, have you > tried to improve the list? > Annemehr: Hmmm...I don't have any complaints about how the list is running these days. I'd only like to say that an active list like HPfGU has sort of a life of its own, and if you try to hard to steer it in certain directions, you'll only kill it. I've seen it happen elsewhere. > > 4. Now that we have all seven books and the speculation is over, > what do you see as the purpose of this list? What would you > imagine/want to see happening on the list a year from now? > Annemehr: I *might* eventually agree with the suggestion that the sister lists (or at least OT-Chatter) *may* eventually have to be folded back into Main (but, see below). But there is another consideration that may be better addressed sooner, and that is the possibility of slightly redefining just what IS Off Topic. Just like any literature, the HP series brings up certain issues. JKR herself has said she has done this on purpose -- that the books are about death or promote tolerance, etc. Currently, if a thread on Main passes from strictly canon-based analysis to a more general discussion of the same themes in society, it is sent to OT-Chatter, for the pragmatic reason of keeping list volume manageable. However, since it seems it was JKR's *intent* to use specific images to engender universal ideas in her readers' minds, I believe discussion of these same universal ideas should be welcomed back into Main. So, I'm thinking that a conversation about the perception of body size in society that is an outgrowth of a discussion of heavy HP characters ought someday to have a place in HPfGU, because that's part of what literature is *for.* Meanwhile, knitting patterns for Weasley sweaters and lively exchanges about adapting Susan Cooper's works to the silver screen retain their place in the sister list. Finally, back to the idea of folding the sister lists back into Main completely -- I'm not sure that is ever going to be a good idea. In the old days before they were ever split off, it was fine, because there was NO danger that OT posts would completely swamp the real HP discussion. But things are going to be different now. In the future, the only reason to fold OT back into Main will be because the posting rate at Main has fallen very low. I'm just afraid that in that case, if you meld the two groups, the OT posts will badly outnumber the HP ones. Then, people looking for canon discussion may not even bother to wade through the other posts to find the minority they're interested in, and HP discussion could die out altogether at HPfGU. But, you could play that by ear. Annemehr From dumbledore11214 at dumbledore11214.yahoo.invalid Tue Oct 30 21:13:32 2007 From: dumbledore11214 at dumbledore11214.yahoo.invalid (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 21:13:32 -0000 Subject: The State of the List Questionaire - Oct 2007 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Annemehr: > What really perplexes me is why some people are so upset to see the > negative analyses. It's almost as though they themselves *know* > there are plenty of flaws in plot and theme and they desperately want > everyone to shut up about them so they can go on ignoring them as > best they can. Okay, I can't say that for a fact, but it really > seems so if, as they say, such posts are going to "ruin" DH for > them. Otherwise, why not refute those posts, or pass them by and > post something to their own taste? How could a post panning DH that > has no truth in it *ruin* the book for them? It'd be like allowing > the book-burning, anti-witchcraft loonies ruin the series for you - > which certainly never happened to any of us before. > > In other words, methinks they do protest too much! Not that I want > to stop them from protesting, really, but my point is I don't want > the list censored to make them more comfortable. And the fact that > this questionnaire is here at all makes me guess that this issue is > one of the reasons behind it. Alla: Hmmm, I want to respond only to this part of your post right now. I can speak only for myself, not for the team, but to the best of my knowledge nobody is planning on limiting the list from discussing ANY aspects of **the books**, positive OR negative, which both are definitely legitimate, how could they be not? Whether negative analysis will ruin the books for me? LOL, of course not. How can the interpretation that I EITHER cannot see for the life of me OR see the facts but arrive to different conclusions ruin the books for me? What can ruin the pleasure of great discussion for me though is the condescending tone - as in how people that like the books are missing all that REALLY hate filled and bad writing picture of DH and of course JKR being crazy, etc. And I had read posts like that (luckily now not as many). And no, I cannot always ignore posts like that, although when I can, trust me that I do - on the regular basis. Of course this goes both ways. I also saw that folks who hated the books should reread them and they would see the error of their ways, etc. I find it obnoxious as well. So, to make a long story short, to me it all boils down to respecting one another. It is all to me in how you say it, if you phrase your interpretation in respectful language, I am totally cool reading it, be it positive or negative. There is of course another thing, but that has not much to do with being annoyed over negative analyses either, I think. As you said, canon is closed and nothing more to speculate, etc. We inferred what we could from the books and as a large picture, we are not going to change our minds, I think. I AM upset that I lost several discussion buddies, with whom I had quite a few book related issues in common and with whom I could discuss it, NOT debate as in fight, but discuss, enrich each other, find some answers, new possibilities. Several of those folks are now seem to be very dissapointed in the books and does not look like we have much in common anymore ( BOOKS WISE obviously), I mean, I do not see what much they can give me and I am sure they do not see it from me as well. Does that make sense? I do not see discussion possible unless once in a while we **see each other point**, not agree, not convinced, but see each other points. If you ( generic you) just hate the books now, I do not think you will ever see my ( generic me) POV anymore. Sure, we can debate and fight ( nicely, LOL), but I am getting more and more interested in discussion as opposite to debate these days and yeah, I am upset that the amount of people I can do it with decreased in number. Although, heeeee, now I found some more things in common with other people, so I guess one thing bounces off another. Again, Anne please bear in mind that last couple of paragraphs have NOTHING to do with being upset over negative analyses or the violation of the list rules or anything like that. It is me as a list member talking about my specific experiences. I can live with that, it is just I loved talking to those folks sooooo much. Alla. From horridporrid03 at horridporrid03.yahoo.invalid Wed Oct 31 12:47:11 2007 From: horridporrid03 at horridporrid03.yahoo.invalid (horridporrid03) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 12:47:11 -0000 Subject: Tone of posts (was:Re: The State of the List Questionaire - Oct 2007) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > >>Alla: > > I can speak only for myself, not for the team, but to the best of > my knowledge nobody is planning on limiting the list from > discussing ANY aspects of **the books**, positive OR negative, > which both are definitely legitimate, how could they be not? > > What can ruin the pleasure of great discussion for me though is the > condescending tone - as in how people that like the books are > missing all that REALLY hate filled and bad writing picture of DH > and of course JKR being crazy, etc. And I had read posts like that > (luckily now not as many). > Betsy Hp: I'm probably being over-sensitive (I hope!), but since I've been told I came across as condescending in the one post I tried my hardest to *not* be condescending, I've been second guessing myself a lot. But I'm one who thinks DH was badly written, displayed a lot of hate, and lead me to conclude JKR has more issues than X-Men comics. (Okay, maybe not *that* many, but her issues run deep. ) I don't aim to condescend to those who enjoyed the books. I do aim to try and work out what went wrong and where. And I also like to put forth my point of view. But now it sounds like my point of view pings your condescention radar. Does it? Betsy Hp (a tiny bit worried) From dumbledore11214 at dumbledore11214.yahoo.invalid Wed Oct 31 13:48:52 2007 From: dumbledore11214 at dumbledore11214.yahoo.invalid (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 13:48:52 -0000 Subject: Tone of posts (was:Re: The State of the List Questionaire - Oct 2007) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > >>Alla: > > > > I can speak only for myself, not for the team, but to the best of > > my knowledge nobody is planning on limiting the list from > > discussing ANY aspects of **the books**, positive OR negative, > > which both are definitely legitimate, how could they be not? > > > > What can ruin the pleasure of great discussion for me though is the > > condescending tone - as in how people that like the books are > > missing all that REALLY hate filled and bad writing picture of DH > > and of course JKR being crazy, etc. And I had read posts like that > > (luckily now not as many). > > > > Betsy Hp: > I'm probably being over-sensitive (I hope!), but since I've been told > I came across as condescending in the one post I tried my hardest to > *not* be condescending, I've been second guessing myself a lot. > > But I'm one who thinks DH was badly written, displayed a lot of hate, > and lead me to conclude JKR has more issues than X-Men comics. > (Okay, maybe not *that* many, but her issues run deep. ) I don't > aim to condescend to those who enjoyed the books. I do aim to try > and work out what went wrong and where. And I also like to put forth > my point of view. But now it sounds like my point of view pings your > condescention radar. Does it? > > Betsy Hp (a tiny bit worried) > Alla: Here is what I can say without discussing specific list member ( you LOLOLOL) as questionaire asks and I hope you know me well enough that I will not lie. I will Y!M you when I am back home tonight and will give you very detailed answer, but sorry cannot do it here. There is absolutely positively NO WAY the POV that you described will bother me. NO WAY. But again, to me it is all in the language. It is all in how you ( generic you) put your argument forward. I mean, I cannot RELATE to that interpretation, there is no interest for me in discussing it, but NO not bothered by it. From susiequsie23 at cubfanbudwoman.yahoo.invalid Wed Oct 31 13:50:25 2007 From: susiequsie23 at cubfanbudwoman.yahoo.invalid (susiequsie23 at cubfanbudwoman.yahoo.invalid) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 06:50:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPFGU-Feedback] Tone of posts (was:Re: The State of the List Questionaire - Oct 2007) Message-ID: <400655.69019.qm@...> > >>Alla: > > I can speak only for myself, not for the team, but to the best of > my knowledge nobody is planning on limiting the list from > discussing ANY aspects of **the books**, positive OR negative, > which both are definitely legitimate, how could they be not? > > What can ruin the pleasure of great discussion for me though is the > condescending tone - as in how people that like the books are > missing all that REALLY hate filled and bad writing picture of DH > and of course JKR being crazy, etc. And I had read posts like that > (luckily now not as many). > Betsy Hp: >>> I'm probably being over-sensitive (I hope!), but since I've been told I came across as condescending in the one post I tried my hardest to *not* be condescending, I've been second guessing myself a lot. But I'm one who thinks DH was badly written, displayed a lot of hate, and lead me to conclude JKR has more issues than X-Men comics. (Okay, maybe not *that* many, but her issues run deep. ) I don't aim to condescend to those who enjoyed the books. I do aim to try and work out what went wrong and where. And I also like to put forth my point of view. But now it sounds like my point of view pings your condescention radar. Does it? Betsy Hp (a tiny bit worried) <<< SSSusan: I can't speak for Alla, but I do believe that her comments were actually prompted by reading what Annemehr had to say, rather than your post to FB? At least, I know that I had similar thoughts to Alla's concerning the issue Annemehr raised of "How could people be upset by others' negative reactions to the book?" I mean that in the sense that, for me, it really isn't usually the *content* of the message that upsets; it's more often the lack of opinion language or the presence of a tone or the sense that "judgments" are implicit in the "negative" post. AND, as Alla remarked, it's a phenomenon which works both ways -- it's just as obnoxious to me when someone "devalues" a member who's upset with the book by saying, "If you'll only read it again, you'll see things my way/more positively" as it is when someone says, "How can you read this and NOT feel this??" It's the focus on the other person and what they "should"/"could"/"ought" to think or feel which has been troublesome for me as a list member. Siriusly Snapey Susan From dumbledore11214 at dumbledore11214.yahoo.invalid Wed Oct 31 13:53:55 2007 From: dumbledore11214 at dumbledore11214.yahoo.invalid (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 13:53:55 -0000 Subject: Tone of posts (was:Re: The State of the List Questionaire - Oct 2007) In-Reply-To: <400655.69019.qm@...> Message-ID: > SSSusan: > I can't speak for Alla, but I do believe that her comments were actually prompted by reading what Annemehr had to say, rather than your post to FB? Alla: OH OH OH. Yes, of course. I totally was not thinking of Betsy's feedback post. From stevejjen at ariadnemajic.yahoo.invalid Wed Oct 31 18:30:52 2007 From: stevejjen at ariadnemajic.yahoo.invalid (Jen Reese) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 18:30:52 -0000 Subject: The State of the List Questionaire - Oct 2007 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Annemehr: > What really perplexes me is why some people are so upset to see the > negative analyses. It's almost as though they themselves *know* > there are plenty of flaws in plot and theme and they desperately > want everyone to shut up about them so they can go on ignoring them > as best they can. Okay, I can't say that for a fact, but it really > seems so if, as they say, such posts are going to "ruin" DH for > them. Otherwise, why not refute those posts, or pass them by and > post something to their own taste? How could a post panning DH that > has no truth in it *ruin* the book for them? It'd be like allowing > the book-burning, anti-witchcraft loonies ruin the series for you - > which certainly never happened to any of us before. "Oh goodie, are we speculating about fans now?" *Jen, missing all the speculation, peers over her spectacles at her current theories.* Except...I don't think theories about fans really gets us anywhere as a group, darn it. Lumping groups of 'those people' under one umbrella dismisses meaningful experiences and fans the flames of resentment imho. Annemehr: > In other words, methinks they do protest too much! Not that I want > to stop them from protesting, really, but my point is I don't want > the list censored to make them more comfortable. And the fact that > this questionnaire is here at all makes me guess that this issue is > one of the reasons behind it. Jen: I see no danger that negative analysis is going anywhere! My perception is negative views are the majority view on a list now, crowding out a certain segment of members in the middle who want to discuss both positives and negatives, but not in the current atmosphere. About the possibility of censorship, hpfgu is a closed group and freedom of speech extends only as far as the rules allow. So *if* there's a decision to be made, it wouldn't be in the realm of 'will we become a censored group?' because we already are imo, but 'how do we balance freedom of expression with respect for other opinions?' > Annemehr: > But there is another consideration that may be better addressed > sooner, and that is the possibility of slightly redefining just > what IS Off Topic. > So, I'm thinking that a conversation about the perception of body > size in society that is an outgrowth of a discussion of heavy HP > characters ought someday to have a place in HPfGU, because that's > part of what literature is *for.* Meanwhile, knitting patterns for > Weasley sweaters and lively exchanges about adapting Susan Cooper's > works to the silver screen retain their place in the sister list. Jen: I agree with your thinking about how to define what's OT and which discussions belongs on main vs. OTC. IIRC, originially that was the idea when the sister lists evolved, only topics that were way off from book discussion were on OTC Maybe after OOTP, with the huge influx of members and rising post volume, more and more topics were funneled off to OTC? That's my guess, it seems like post-OOTP was a turning point for the group. From jaynekranc at jaynekranc.yahoo.invalid Thu Nov 1 16:35:35 2007 From: jaynekranc at jaynekranc.yahoo.invalid (Jayne Kranc) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 09:35:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tone of posts (was:Re: The State of the List Questionaire - Oct 2007 Message-ID: <903111.14780.qm@...> I'm not really interested in the list anymore. I used to lurk, but I found DH so appallingly bad and so disappointing that I don't want to be on the list anymore. It was a total waste of potential. My sympathies are totally with the other disappointed fans, so you probably don't want me around anyway. Jayne __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From annemehr at annemehr.yahoo.invalid Fri Nov 2 01:03:51 2007 From: annemehr at annemehr.yahoo.invalid (Annemehr) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007 01:03:51 -0000 Subject: Tone of posts (was:Re: The State of the List Questionaire - Oct 2007) In-Reply-To: <400655.69019.qm@...> Message-ID: > SSSusan: > At least, I know that I had similar thoughts to Alla's concerning the issue Annemehr raised of "How could people be upset by others' negative reactions to the book?" I mean that in the sense that, for me, it really isn't usually the *content* of the message that upsets; it's more often the lack of opinion language or the presence of a tone or the sense that "judgments" are implicit in the "negative" post. > Annemehr: Well, I did get a little snarky (as Jen pointed out -- I'm bad sometimes!), but I was talking about a few people who've written a minority of posts that seemed to be saying that the negative-reaction threads *don't belong on HPfGU.* They weren't just disagreeing with the negative posts, they were complaining about their very presence on the list. See, if I had been writing a canon-discussion post instead of answering this questionnaire, I would have given citations. Then it would have been clearer. But I can't go quoting individual HPfGU posts here. So, I tried to explain the best I could. On the other hand, the fact that the DH-lovers and the DH-haters are looking at each other like aliens sometimes can be kind of fun, if we all keep our heads. Annemehr