Harry and Sirius

[Richard]

In my role as someone sensitive to the rules of this place who isn't in a 
position to enforce them, I'd remind people that this list is about the HP 
movies, not the books. Let's keep discussions on topic, please. For that 
reason, I'm not going to address most of the discussion over the last few days.

> > [Sherry]
> > Unfortunately, I think that Sirius's death and Lupin's absence are both 
> part
> > of the stripping away of Harry's support system like in most archetypal
> > fantasy hero coming-of-age stories (Luke Skywalker, Frodo, etc).  The final
> > blow is Dumbledore's death.  Even Snape, who antagonizes Harry but has
> > always been there to save his butt in a pinch, is gone now.

Well, duh! Harry's journey is an archetypal one, and part of that is 
specifically that he has to lose his mentors, while becoming one to others. 
But ultimately he must face his nemesis alone.

> > [Valerie]
> > I just hope the 7th book doesn't get tooo LOTR! Will Ron come to save the
> > day like Samwise?

That's part of the archetype as well (LOTR is one of miriad possible 
examples). Immediately before the end, Harry will have to doubt himself and 
*someone* will have to bring him back to his task. It doesn't necessarily 
have to be Ron, though, as Harry has several journeymen: Hermione, Neville, 
Luna, Ginny and even Snape (!) although he'll probably have a different 
role to play in the final showdown.

Anyway, that said...

I'm a bit concerned that while I raised Harry's relationship to Sirius, 
most of the conversation here has been Sirius's relationship with Harry. Of 
course Sirius feels close to Harry for miriad reasons we all know and which 
I won't go into, and is protective of him. It is absolutely no surprise 
that Sirius wants to have a relationship.

The point I was making is why Harry should feel anything for Sirius at the 
end of PoA. He's spent the months since he first heard of him despising the 
man. In one moment in the shack, the relationship does an about-turn (which 
is fine as such), but what gets me is the depth of Harry's affection for 
Sirius *at that moment*. Several non-HP-reading people I know came out of 
PoA and asked not "who wrote the map?" or "why a stag?", but "why does 
Harry suddenly like Sirius so much?". The second question frequently was 
"how much of the book's dialogue was overlooked from that relationship?", 
because the change simply didn't work (the answer is, there's more dialogue 
in the film than the book).

At the same time, the significant relationship Harry's built up with Lupin 
over the months all but disappears. Just because Sirius has a legal "claim" 
to Harry doesn't explain why Harry should immediately fall for his charms 
while side-lining Lupin. As far as I'm concerned, this is somewhat fixed in 
that the final scene with Lupin (both in the book and film) are more 
touching and seem more intimate than the scene with Sirius, but 
nevertheless, to get back to where all this started, it doesn't explain why 
Harry should consider Sirius to be a better correspondent in GoF than Lupin 
- or, for that matter, Dumbledore, who presumably knows more than anyone 
what's going on, and is more readily to hand.

Of course, the subsequent story might have been a bit different... :-)

In any event, it's interesting that Harry should choose to build a 
relationship with the impetuous, irresponsible, slightly unhinged one, 
rather than the quiet, studious  and gentle one...

And from elsewhere, on a different topic but connected to this one, 
bringing me back to more appropriate subject-matter for this list, this 
from Jen:

>I do understand that films do not work the same way as the written
>word, but what I was trying rather clumsily to say is that sometimes
>the "clues" the HP series or the BIG moments are there but they can
>just seem to *pop* out of nowhere, no context. Granted there was no
>need for, at least the film maker didn't see any need to reference
>WMPP very clearly in POA, to get his story across, but I sure would
>have relished hearing someone tell Harry his father always
>transformed into a stag.

That didn't have any relevance to the immediate story. Besides, it's not 
really a "clue" in the traditional sense: it's an independent fact which 
has a serendipitous resonance, but isn't connected to the issues at hand in 
PoA. As I said at the time, the movie had two major items to reveal, which 
were integral to the narrative: Pettigrew was a rat (in more ways than 
one), and Sirius was innocent. The MWPP back-story was not directly 
relevant to those issues, except to add colour to the relationship: what 
was important was to show that a relationship had existed and how close it 
had been. This can be (and was, IMO) more effectively portrayed by some 
decent acting rather than through the recitation of any number of facts 
from the MWPP back-story.

>  It can seem abrupt and truncated not to hear about these bits of 
> information, no matter how handily the need for them can be explained 
> away. But do you agree for better or worse that the stuff we see on the 
> screen is essential to the
>advance of JKR's narrative? Down to the absolute bone perhaps but the 
>important stuff nevertheless?

Not essential to advance JKR's narrative, but essential to each individual 
movie's narrative. That, I think, is the most important thing to bear in 
mind when watching the movies and what they choose to show. Of course, the 
final movie's narrative (and plot, two words which many people take to be 
synonyms but which aren't) will be the cumulation of all which has 
preceded, and thus the individual movies need to lay down a certain number 
of facts which will work towards that resolution, but considering, as far 
as we know (YET again) the production team doesn't know for a fact which of 
those facts and elements will come into play, it's difficult for them to 
"edit" the individual narratives successfully.

Incidentally, I can't believe that it struck me only this moment that the 
ideal way/place to establish as succinctly (if not as obviously) as 
possible the related issue of the Map's authorship is not through 
expositionary dialogue at all: assuming that Snape's Pensieve scene makes 
it into OotP (and I can't see it not doing so), simply have WMPP use their 
noms-de-plume while sitting under the tree (which they sort-of do in the 
book anyway). Not only that, but perhaps have them using the map as well 
(just to dot the 'i's and cross the 't's).

No need for extra writing, no need for unwieldy exposition, no need for 
extra screen-time. The Map had been established in PoA as a tool of 
adventure and mischief; if done correctly, it can be established here, in 
only its second major appearance, as a more sinister object, for more 
sinister uses by the unlikable quartet. Actually, the more I think about 
it, the more I like it. :-)

--
Richard, making a mental note to expand on this issue quite seriously when 
OotP comes out, assuming that the scene works the way I imagine it.