[HPFGU-OTChatter] His Dark Materials

[storm]

> Storm asked lots of things about the Pullman HDM series ....

> About the what's-going-on question: The background to HDM is
the Christian
> concept of the Fall.

ok I got this bit by the end of book 2. But I couldn't work out
which 'side' (for want of a better term Pullman was placing Lyra
and Will (?) on: seemed to be at first on the side of God rather
than Authority/The Church (which I saw as satan) but then he had
Lyra and Will be Adam and Eve which confused me again. Also (and
this is probably a personal bias thing) I found it hard to get
excited about fall of Authority/Satan because minons (The Church)
can cause just as much trouble.

Or was God Authority? Is this failure to identify that has lead
me astray?

> (as well as many other persons and beings who are stuck on
God's black
> books) are setting up for a second try, with Asriel leading the
way.

But .. but I thought Asreil was opposed to The Church which was
supposed to represent Satan/Authority? Or are both Bad? More of a
triangle than a bipolar arragement?

Also the angels seemed like good guys but they were working with
Asriel I thought  .... that Mrs C - she had a bit of epiphany did
she and come over to the Good Side? (Lyra and Will - they are on
the Good Side - I hope so, I liked them both very much - Is the
fall supposed to happen as part of free will? - thus ordained by
God?)
>
> Dust: Dust seems to be a sort of elemental *spiritual* or
*conscious*
> particle, that pervades time and space. ... , Dust particles
are the
> building blocks of conscious experience. ... Dust is to be
found in association
> with beings capable of interacting freely,intelligently and
consciously with the
> world.

Why did it need to be contained in each of the worlds? what was
the problem with it floating around ... down to hell?
>
> Humans, of course, have this capacity; and as they go through
puberty, it
> comes into much sharper focus: hence, grownup humans have more
Dust than
> children. Pullman's religious types figure that it is precisely
this
> capacity which leads people to rebel against God - and hence
they want to
> destroy it. [Sane religious people, including Christians,
generally think
> exactly the opposite.]

which is why I thought his religous ppl (the church) were
supposed to be aligned with satan, maybe unknowingly. I think.
You know, in the same way that say, I might say some organised
religons appear to have little to do with spirtuality/real
engagement with the world as it is/however one describes it. I
though he was taking swipe at the kind of 'rule following beleif'
that appears to me causes grief in much of the world (not just
the christian world)
>
> Daemons: Here I'm not quite as sure. I *think* Pullman's
daemons are meant
> to represent the human spirit (or soul or mental essence or
non-corporeal
> aspect or even qualia). The traditional, European and American
way of
> understanding people (or any other sentient beings) is to think
of two
> distinct but ineracting parts: the physical part and the
spiritual/mental
> part. Pullman has given the inhabitants of Lyra's world the
advantage of
> having visible souls. It's a fascinating thought, even for
people (like me)
> who just can't make the two-part theory work.

I though ppl were supposed to have three parts: mind, body and
soul? matched more or less to the three-personed God. Oh dear,
it's sad to have to base one's understanding on some half
remembered A level english poetry.
>
> (An oddity: most people tend to think that the part of a human
being which
> survives death is the spiritual-mental-soulful-non-corporeal
part. In Lyra's
> world it's the opposite. This may suggest that Pullman has
something more
> like "life-force" in mind.)

hmm, or are the souls/dameons simply not visiable any more just
as they are not visiable for us (ever)?

then Barb said:
>
> So perhaps the children are supposed to be similar to Adam and
Eve
> before the Fall?  Interesting take on this part of Western
> mythology...If you're going to re-stage this cosmic battle, I
suppose
> you need someone to battle over, and adult humans don't cut it,
> evidently.

well they repeat the Fall in book 3 don't they? with Mary(?) and
her order (from whom?) to 'play the tempter' (or what ever the
quote was)

then Barb said ...
>
> The daemons are confusing.  When they battle each other, the
owners of
> the daemons watch and feel pain, yet don't seem to be active
> participants in the battle.
>
I think they are involved ... I think it's like a .. can't think
of the word it's far too late ... things you can move by your
mind .. you might not look like you are moving them but you are.

thanks for your thoughts on this, Mr Goat and Barb (and of course
I hope for more!)
>
storm (reveling in revealing her ignorance - not really!)