Potter derivative of LOTR? No!

[dfrankiswork at netscape.net]

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., hfakhro at n... wrote:
> Hello -
> 
> I just forced a friend to read the Potter books, and right after 
she 
> finished them, her boyfriend made her read the Lord of the Rings. 
She 
> is now convinced that Rowling's work is purely derivative from 
LOTR. 

I sense one of those arguments that seem to be about one thing, but 
are really about another.  If she really means *purely* derivative, 
then it's easy to find loads of stuff in JKR not in LOTR or any other 
Tolkein - for example, her attempt to show a working government, a 
sense of a real economy, and a relationship to our own world, and, I 
believe, a different conception of the inner strugles of those who 
are tempted. (I always feel in LOTR, that once you've sinned, you've 
had it.  Redemption is theoretically there, but nobody manages it - 
Gollum, Saruman, Wormtongue, even Sauron in the relevant bits of the 
Silmarillion.)
 
> My friend insists that regardless of what Rowling says, some of the 
> similarities are as follows: Wormtail is a tribute to Wormtongue 
> (character and name), Dumbledore is Gandalf, and the Black Riders 
are 
> the source for Dementors. Among other things she also says that 
> Rowling took some names from Tolkien such as Longbottom (I can't 
> remember the others that she mentioned.) She also thinks that 
Rowling 
> filched elements from the world itself such as wizards, elves, 
> goblins, etc and made them behave similarly in her books. This is a 
> more general question (and I feel a bit stupid asking) but aren't 
> wizards, goblins, elves etc ancient creations before Tolkien? I.E. 
he 
> didn't invent them either did he?
> 
Even if we grant some of the above parallels are not accidents, what 
of it?  Derivative is OK.  Tolkein was just cunning enough to be 
derivative from stuff most people (including me) hadn't read.

And Harry Potter is derivative of enough non Tolkein things to be 
quite different - the British boarding school story (Stalky & Co, 
Billy Bunter, Jennings, The Worst Witch), the wizard-in-the-human-
world story (Sabrina, and many more going back into the mists of 
time), the orphan raised by wicked uncle and aunt (Snow White and 
again many more).

Interestingly, the parallel that is most often drawn with LOTR is not 
mentioned: the idea of a whole consistent invented world.  It could 
be aregued that JKR is superior to JRRT here, because of the economic 
& political stuff referred to above.  Hogwarts has toilets that are 
relevant to the plot - Middle Earth is a world without toilets. Nuff 
said.

Possibly taking the opposite point of view to a friend's boyfriend is 
a recipe for losing an argument.

David