From pbnesbit at msn.com  Fri Feb  1 02:52:05 2002
From: pbnesbit at msn.com (harpdreamer)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 02:52:05 -0000
Subject: The MBTI
In-Reply-To: <003d01c1a9ac$0b218620$7634c2cb@price>
Message-ID: <a3cvsl+kri4@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "Tabouli" <tabouli at u...> wrote:

(Snip)

> > 
> I really found it difficult to answer the E/I T/F questions.  If 
it's a matter of how I am the majority of the time, looking at my 
life as a whole I'd have to choose for the Intellectual, but looking 
at the last six months I'd have to choose for the Artist.  If it's a 
matter of which of the sides is my True Self, I don't think I could 
answer... I treasure my Artist, feel she is more fundamental to my 
nature (as opposed to nurture) and want to give her more air time, 
but does that me she is the real me, more so that the Intellectual 
who has dominated until recently?  As for Thinking and Feeling, when 
my emotions dominate, as they occasionally do, they *really* take 
over, wipe out everything else like a tidal wave, all rationality, 
all analysis, everything.  Yet as soon as the tidal wave recedes, the 
Thinker comes rushing in, tutting at the mess, and analyses 
everything back into place.
> 
> I did eventually come up with a code by reading the descriptions of 
each type and deciding which sounded most like me as a whole, but 
even there I was wavering between a couple. Can't remember what I 
finally settled on.  INTP, maybe?  What are they like?
> 
> (Did anyone else who did the test have this sort of problem?)
> 
> Tabouli.


I've taken the Myers-Briggs twice now and both times I came out the 
same--INFJ.  I *did* have a lot of trouble with some of the 
questions, because sometimes I'm one way and sometimes just the 
opposite--a lot depends on the situation I find myself in.  For 
example, I have a very "E(xtrovert)" job (I'm a Historic Interpreter 
at a historic rice plantation) in which I'm expected to talk to 
people I don't know.  I really enjoy this, but I also enjoy the times 
when we have no visitors and I can concentrate on my weaving or 
spinning.  I'm very much an "F" (Feeler), yet when my husband needs a 
situation analysed, he comes to me.  The only two that stay the same 
are the "N" (iNtuitive) and the "J" (Judging).  I do tend to go with 
intuition and gut-level instinct and I am quite judemental. A good 
example of this is from our last job (again as historic interpreters, 
this time at a Native American Site in a Park) when after only two 
weeks there I told my husband that we'd made a *huge* mistake taking 
the job.  As it turns out, I was proved right seven months later when 
he was asked to resign.

Peace & Plenty, 

Parker 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From tabouli at unite.com.au  Fri Feb  1 04:29:19 2002
From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 15:29:19 +1100
Subject: Repeated mispostings...
Message-ID: <009101c1aad9$0524af80$0553dccb@price>

Sorry, everyone, I'm not really trying to hijack the entire OT list - for some reason, I keep on clicking the OT list when I mean to post to the main list!  (Tabouli slaps her forehead with her mouse pad)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From walkthewalk999 at aol.com  Fri Feb  1 18:00:08 2002
From: walkthewalk999 at aol.com (walkthewalk999 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 13:00:08 EST
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Spock's emotions/was MBTI Thinking/Feeling
Message-ID: <31.21e13373.298c31a8@aol.com>

In a message dated 1/31/02 4:04:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
mcsalas at pacbell.net writes:


> Hi, all,
> 
> My first post--I'm so excited...


Mine too!
> 
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "bbennett320178" <bbennett at j...> wrote:
> 
> Spock definitely did have emotions. The backstory is that way back 
> when, Vulcans were extremely hot-headed. As a culture they eventually 
> embraced pure logic, but the emotions are still there. (IIRC, the 
> referenced episode occured quite early in the series, before some of 
> this had been developed.) However, even though Spock still had 
> emotions, he had been trained from birth to disregard them, and had 
> been immersed in a culture that disregarded them.

This is true, but remember, Spock had mixed blood, one parent was human 
(Feeling)  and one was Vulcan (thinking), and he was ashamed of his human 
(ie.. emotional) side, so he tried to hide his emotions even more.

And this is way OT :-)  Glad this list allows it!

Linda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From saitaina at wizzards.net  Fri Feb  1 18:54:48 2002
From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 10:54:48 -0800
Subject: Stalker or Moron?  Help please
References: <31.21e13373.298c31a8@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001601c1ab51$ed6f9ca0$a64e28d1@oemcomputer>

Okay, I got an...intrusting IM from someone and don't know what to do about
it....this guy scares me a bit.

Below is the log...my IM name has been changed to protect myself.-

SaitainaFan (10:23:00 AM): I can't believe I'm talking to you!
SaitainaFan (10:23:08 AM): I love your stories!  And your webpage!
DracoMalf (10:23:15 AM): Uh huh
SaitainaFan (10:23:33 AM): I love you!  Will you marry me??
DracoMalf (10:23:48 AM): Sorry, I'm taken.
SaitainaFan (10:24:26 AM): Does he groan
DracoMalf (10:24:32 AM): Pardon?
SaitainaFan (10:24:50 AM): Does he moan?
SaitainaFan (10:25:09 AM): Does he roll over?  That's the most impotant!
SaitainaFan (10:25:13 AM): I mean important
DracoMalf (10:25:50 AM): Excuse me darling.  But while I'm quite happy you
like my fiction and site I will have to ask you to back off now as you are
moving into inapproriate territory.
SaitainaFan (10:26:34 AM): Sorry
SaitainaFan (10:26:37 AM): I'm just excited
SaitainaFan (10:26:50 AM): I like your picture,  though
DracoMalf (10:26:56 AM): It's quite alright just try not to get a little too
excited.

What picture is that?
SaitainaFan (10:27:09 AM): The one on your IM
DracoMalf (10:27:23 AM): Oh!  Yes I quite like that one too. :o)
SaitainaFan (10:27:45 AM): Do you have a mailing list or something?
SaitainaFan (10:27:51 AM): So I can keep up with your stuff?
DracoMalf (10:28:01 AM): Yes I do, Alternate Historians which can be found
at YahooGroups.
SaitainaFan (10:28:29 AM): alternate historians?  Sounds freaky
SaitainaFan (10:28:33 AM): LOL
DracoMalf (10:28:53 AM): The name comes because we change the history of the
fandoms we play with.  Sort of a joke :o)
SaitainaFan (10:29:08 AM): hahahaaah
SaitainaFan (10:29:13 AM): That's so funny!
SaitainaFan (10:29:22 AM): Ure such a genius
DracoMalf (10:29:46 AM): Thank you darling but I'm not quite a genius yet.
SaitainaFan (10:30:11 AM): Yet is a key word here
SaitainaFan (10:30:14 AM): Right?
DracoMalf (10:30:17 AM): Right.
SaitainaFan (10:30:24 AM): okay
SaitainaFan (10:30:28 AM): he moaned
DracoMalf (10:30:55 AM): Pardon?
SaitainaFan (10:31:12 AM): Sorry, I had an itch
DracoMalf (10:31:21 AM): Ah
SaitainaFan (10:31:44 AM): I should really go into dark places to do that
SaitainaFan (10:31:51 AM): Sorry
DracoMalf (10:31:52 AM): Uh huh
SaitainaFan (10:32:16 AM): Do you ever have to scratch yourself?
SaitainaFan (10:32:26 AM): I think you're probably very sexy
DracoMalf (10:32:53 AM): Excuse me, once again in territor we should not be
in.  Please refrain from such comments.
SaitainaFan (10:33:11 AM): Sorry
SaitainaFan (10:33:15 AM): But r u sexy?
SaitainaFan (10:33:19 AM): Just asking
SaitainaFan (10:33:25 AM): U gotta pic?
DracoMalf (10:33:41 AM): Sexy is a figment of the imagineation. Beauty is
within.

No.
SaitainaFan (10:33:51 AM): That sux
SaitainaFan (10:34:10 AM): So are u beautifull?
DracoMalf (10:34:33 AM): I belive I am. I am beautfiul because of what I do
not because of my looks.
SaitainaFan (10:34:46 AM): So r u ugly outside?
SaitainaFan (10:34:55 AM): Not that it matters
DracoMalf (10:35:29 AM): No.  I'm beautfiul in both cases I just prefer to
be beautiful for my works instead of my face.
SaitainaFan (10:35:29 AM): Can you write a story for me?
DracoMalf (10:35:42 AM): Depends on what it's about.
SaitainaFan (10:35:50 AM): Harry Potter
SaitainaFan (10:35:55 AM): In the HP fandom
SaitainaFan (10:36:01 AM): Like you know?
DracoMalf (10:36:02 AM): I guessed that.
SaitainaFan (10:36:10 AM): I'm glad you did
SaitainaFan (10:36:40 AM): Can u do evil?
DracoMalf (10:37:09 AM): Depends on the evil.  I don't belive in pure and
ultamite evil so if that's what you're asking, no.
SaitainaFan (10:37:32 AM): I'm asking can u write bad guys well?
SaitainaFan (10:37:39 AM): Like Voldemort?
SaitainaFan (10:37:42 AM): He's sexy
DracoMalf (10:37:47 AM): Reasonably well.
SaitainaFan (10:38:05 AM): How about the death eaters?
SaitainaFan (10:38:21 AM): Like Lucius?
DracoMalf (10:38:24 AM): I do Lucius too soft and Crabbe and Goyle too
stupid so I don't think I can do them well.
SaitainaFan (10:38:25 AM): And Wormtail
DracoMalf (10:38:40 AM): If you're a fan of my work you've seen my portrayal
of those three...
SaitainaFan (10:38:58 AM): Yeah,  but I mean a story just for me
SaitainaFan (10:39:13 AM): So I can scratch myself
SaitainaFan (10:39:18 AM): Sorry, wrong IM
DracoMalf (10:39:40 AM): uh huh
SaitainaFan (10:39:52 AM): u forgive me?
DracoMalf (10:40:25 AM): Of course.

I will think about you're request as I have a full plate of fics at the
moment.
SaitainaFan (10:41:21 AM): But no, really, I do personally prefer the finer
things in life.  I would enjoy nothing better than sitting back and relaxing
to the wonderful, flowing words of beautifully-written fanfiction, done by a
person whose writing skills outweigh the normal writer.  Do you agree?
DracoMalf (10:42:53 AM): I do but I really don't think I outweigh a normal
writer.  There are far better writers in the fandom then myself.
SaitainaFan (10:43:14 AM): You are too, too modest
SaitainaFan (10:43:24 AM): But to be honest, I have read better.
DracoMalf (10:43:33 AM): :-)
SaitainaFan (10:43:53 AM): That does not mean, of course, that my love for
you is fickle
SaitainaFan (10:44:03 AM): Do u agree?
DracoMalf (10:44:26 AM): Uh huh
SaitainaFan (10:44:51 AM): I have made a rap song
SaitainaFan (10:44:55 AM): Do u want to hear it?
SaitainaFan (10:44:59 AM): It's about you
DracoMalf (10:45:01 AM): Oh?
SaitainaFan (10:45:33 AM): well do u?
DracoMalf (10:45:41 AM): Not at the moment.
SaitainaFan (10:45:48 AM): U r mean
SaitainaFan (10:45:50 AM): I cry
DracoMalf (10:46:12 AM): I'm sorry I'm just at work right now and while I
would LOVE to hear it...
SaitainaFan (10:46:13 AM): I need to scratch my genitals
DracoMalf (10:46:17 AM): uh huh
SaitainaFan (10:46:34 AM): OIC
SaitainaFan (10:46:42 AM): What do you do for a living?
DracoMalf (10:47:15 AM): I'm a writer.
SaitainaFan (10:47:24 AM): do u get payed?
DracoMalf (10:48:23 AM): Not as of yet.
SaitainaFan (10:48:50 AM): that sux
SaitainaFan (10:48:55 AM): why not?
SaitainaFan (10:49:22 AM): But I thought that you were God
DracoMalf (10:49:30 AM): Not, I'm not.
SaitainaFan (10:49:38 AM): But you claim to be
DracoMalf (10:49:39 AM): be right back, have to go turn off the stove
SaitainaFan (10:49:52 AM): Wouldn't want to burn yourself, now, would you?
DracoMalf (10:49:34 AM): I have to leave, good bye
SaitainaFan (10:49:56 AM): Or your house down?

Guys, I'm really scared now.  I know who this is and he's contacted me under
three diffrent names now....someone...give me advice or something.

*****
"There has never been a kid who got so much joy from speaking his oddball
name."-New York Times Review, HP and the SS, regarding Draco Malfoy.

"No matter what PTA, goverment or civic group things about teenage sex, or
any other immoral act that my son, and your daughter might engage in, I
don't think that they should have to die from it." -Mary-Jo, "Designing
Women

"I never tell men about my past"

"Why?"

"It takes too long."
-Blanche, Rose, "Golden Girls"




From andrew_macian at yahoo.com  Fri Feb  1 19:16:03 2002
From: andrew_macian at yahoo.com (Andrew MacIan)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 11:16:03 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Stalker or Moron?  Help please
In-Reply-To: <001601c1ab51$ed6f9ca0$a64e28d1@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <20020201191603.63525.qmail@web9506.mail.yahoo.com>

Greetings from Andrew!


--- Saitaina <saitaina at wizzards.net> wrote:
> Okay, I got an...intrusting IM from someone and
> don't know what to do about
> it....this guy scares me a bit.
{snip}
> Guys, I'm really scared now.  I know who this is and
> he's contacted me under
> three diffrent names now....someone...give me advice
> or something.
This being the case, I didn't see you require that
this person stop messaging you.  That would be the
first, visible step. The second would be to contact
this person's ISP (as well as your own) and tell them
about this behavior. IMO, and IANAL, it is indeed
stalking if it is more than this single example.

After that...the cops need to be involved if the above
person stays in contact (IM or email or whatever).
we've had some of this on campus over the last year,
and our IT/security people got involved immediately,
as did the LAPD when needed; they were most
cooperative and understanding.  YMMV with the locals,
but if this happens after you tell this person to stop
and never bother you again, then they need to get the
information.

HTH...

Drieux

=====
ICQ # 76184391

'Each game of chess means there's one less
      Variation left to be played;
 Each day got through means one or two less
      Mistakes remain to be made.'
      --'Chess' by Sir Tim Rice

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! 
http://auctions.yahoo.com



From saitaina at wizzards.net  Fri Feb  1 19:14:44 2002
From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 11:14:44 -0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Stalker or Moron?  Help please
References: <20020201191603.63525.qmail@web9506.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000301c1ab54$b80ac280$734e28d1@oemcomputer>

I've told this person four times to leave me alone.  Each on a separate IM
message..  I edited that out of the bottom of the log accidentally when I
posted it.

I don't know how to get a hold of this person's ISP because he has a yahoo
mail account.

Saitaina
*****
"There has never been a kid who got so much joy from speaking his oddball
name."-New York Times Review, HP and the SS, regarding Draco Malfoy.

"No matter what PTA, goverment or civic group things about teenage sex, or
any other immoral act that my son, and your daughter might engage in, I
don't think that they should have to die from it." -Mary-Jo, "Designing
Women

"I never tell men about my past"

"Why?"

"It takes too long."
-Blanche, Rose, "Golden Girls"




From andrew_macian at yahoo.com  Fri Feb  1 19:27:26 2002
From: andrew_macian at yahoo.com (Andrew MacIan)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 11:27:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Stalker or Moron?  Help please
In-Reply-To: <000301c1ab54$b80ac280$734e28d1@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <20020201192726.64572.qmail@web9506.mail.yahoo.com>

Greetings from Andrew!

--- Saitaina <saitaina at wizzards.net> wrote:
> I've told this person four times to leave me alone. 
> Each on a separate IM
> message..  I edited that out of the bottom of the
> log accidentally when I
> posted it.

Understood.  That, againg IMO and IANAL, makes it
stalking.

> 
> I don't know how to get a hold of this person's ISP
> because he has a yahoo
> mail account.

Well, Yahoo! is pretty careful about the ToS here. 
Were I you, I'd email them (abuse at yahoo.com) all of
the  transcripts/email that you have from this
person...and do the same to/with whoever it is that
you use for an ISP.  And I'd do it *now*, so that TPTB
will have the information as soon as possible.

Be well...and careful...

Drieux



=====
ICQ # 76184391

'Each game of chess means there's one less
      Variation left to be played;
 Each day got through means one or two less
      Mistakes remain to be made.'
      --'Chess' by Sir Tim Rice

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! 
http://auctions.yahoo.com



From saitaina at wizzards.net  Fri Feb  1 19:24:59 2002
From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 11:24:59 -0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Stalker or Moron?  Help please
References: <20020201192726.64572.qmail@web9506.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000901c1ab56$24aded80$734e28d1@oemcomputer>

Thank you Andrew.  I shall do as you said.

Saitaina
*****
"There has never been a kid who got so much joy from speaking his oddball
name."-New York Times Review, HP and the SS, regarding Draco Malfoy.

"No matter what PTA, goverment or civic group things about teenage sex, or
any other immoral act that my son, and your daughter might engage in, I
don't think that they should have to die from it." -Mary-Jo, "Designing
Women

"I never tell men about my past"

"Why?"

"It takes too long."
-Blanche, Rose, "Golden Girls"




From andrew_macian at yahoo.com  Fri Feb  1 19:40:44 2002
From: andrew_macian at yahoo.com (Andrew MacIan)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 11:40:44 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Stalker or Moron?  Help please
In-Reply-To: <000901c1ab56$24aded80$734e28d1@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <20020201194044.4175.qmail@web9503.mail.yahoo.com>

Greetings from Andrew!

--- Saitaina <saitaina at wizzards.net> wrote:
> Thank you Andrew.  I shall do as you said.
> 
Welcome, certainly.

Don't be put off if what Yahoo! sends back is their
automated respopnse form; that should be followed (in
short order, but...) by a 'live' response.

Just make sure that others know of this, and the
problem should be resolved.

Cheers,

Drieux

=====
ICQ # 76184391

'Each game of chess means there's one less
      Variation left to be played;
 Each day got through means one or two less
      Mistakes remain to be made.'
      --'Chess' by Sir Tim Rice

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send your FREE holiday greetings online!
http://greetings.yahoo.com



From tabouli at unite.com.au  Sat Feb  2 14:29:27 2002
From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 01:29:27 +1100
Subject: Fw: Japanese emoticons
Message-ID: <003101c1abf6$05b46ee0$e751dccb@price>

Ha!  I have Moderator Certified permission to forward this to the OT list...
enjoy!

(Side note to Saitaina... yik!  I thought there was some way to block the
addresses and YM access of people who are harassing you, isn't there?  I've
certainly blocked a couple of addresses of nasty men in my time, though that
was email only.  If there is, you could just flip the switch every time he
turned up)

> Hi John (and other Mods, whom I thought might enjoy this too),
>
> > > Section 4.1
> > >
> > > I note that you've omitted including Japanese style right-way-up
> emoticons
> > > (like ^_^), which I *have* seen people using on-list.  Probably too
much
> > > information, but I do have a list of these and their meanings
somewhere
> if
> > > you really want...
> >
> > I *almost* included those, but forgot :D Please, do send along a list :D
>
> Ask and it shall be given unto you (courtesy of 1996 email from South
> African penfriend):
>
>       (^_^;)        a laugh to mask one's nervousness.
>
>        (;_;)        weeping
>
>        (^o^)        laughing out loud
>
>        (^-^)        tickled to death
>
>        (*_*)        frightened
>
>      (*^.^*)        flattery will get you everywhere
>
>      |(-_-)|        can't hear a word you're saying
>
>        (>_<)        not again!
>
>        (O_o)        an eye-opener
>
>       (^_^)/        Hello
>
>        (?_?)        why?
>
>         (__)        depressed
>
>       m(__)m        sorry (_gomennasai_) (the deepest bow, hands and
>                     face to the floor)
>
>   (.. )( ..)        looking around
>
>     (-_-)zzz        Sleeping, bored
>
>   Oo(^_^)y-~        smoking with left hand
>
>     (^_^)/~~        good-bye, waving handkerchief with a smile
>
>     (;_;)/~~        good-bye, waving handkerchief with tears
>
> Aren't these just adorable?  I have a real affection for the Japanese
> culture and people.  The whole country is full of endearingly quirky
things
> like this.  Plus they make the most beautiful stationery in the world...
>
> Tabouli (whose mainland Chinese friends disapprove of her Japanophilia,
> especially Kaiyu)
>
> P.S. Should I post these on OT for wider delectation?
>




From inviziblegirl at hotmail.com  Sat Feb  2 18:38:20 2002
From: inviziblegirl at hotmail.com (Amber ?)
Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 13:38:20 -0500
Subject: Movie Changing Book Perceptions
Message-ID: <F31SSfWXWzRPTNZStgL0000d34b@hotmail.com>


As I didn't know precisely where this should go, I decided on OT-Chat. Ah, 
it's so nice to have a forum where I know anything is game!

I remember that before the HP movie came out, some people were worried about 
it changing their mental image of the books. Or that everyone wouldn't be 
able to think of Harry without imagining Daniel. I thought about it today 
and came to the realization that the movie has changed very little about 
what is in my mental mind when I read the books.

For example, the Great Hall. Regardless that we have a clear picture of a 
possible Great Hall, thanks to the movie, I have stuck to the Great Hall 
that I have always thought about. In my mind, it's a heck of a lot wider 
than the movie one, has the entrances on the sides of the tables, not the 
end and the Professor's table is up on a stage-like pedastal (don't ask, my 
mind is weird). You would think I would've changed, even slightly, but I 
have no problems dismissing the movie Great Hall and sticking to my own 
version.

As for characters, the only two that have influenced my mental perception 
are Hooch and Hagrid. I now picture Zoe Wannamaker and Robbie Coltrane, more 
or less when I think about those characters. Everyone else...well, while 
they were very well cast, they don't fit quite right. While Daniel Radcliffe 
is a delightful Harry, he isn't *my* Harry.

Quidditch is perhaps the one movie scene that has drastically changed my 
mental perception. I always had a difficult time imagining Quidditch; it was 
slow-motion in my mind and sketchy. But the movie...just, wow. I now have a 
much easier time imagining the characters zooming around on their brooms. 
And I think that is an improvement, rather a detriment. Bravo for the movie 
on that score.

So what about everybody else? Has the movie changed your mental images? Do 
you now think of Daniel, Rupert and Emma when you think of the Trio? Or were 
your original ideas left more or less alone?

~Amber

********
http://www.the-tabula-rasa.com

'My nerves are bad to-night. Yes, bad. Stay with me.
'Speak to me. Why do you never speak? Speak.
'What are you thinking of? What thinking? What?
'I never know what you are thinking. Think.'
- excerpts from "The Waste Land" by T.S. Eliot

_________________________________________________________________
Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com




From morrigan at byz.org  Sat Feb  2 22:38:46 2002
From: morrigan at byz.org (Morrigan //Vicki//)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 14:38:46 -0800
Subject: Movie Changing Book Perceptions
In-Reply-To: <F31SSfWXWzRPTNZStgL0000d34b@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <NFBBLPEOCLIKCDBACHIBIECNCOAA.morrigan@byz.org>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Amber ? [mailto:inviziblegirl at hotmail.com]
>
> So what about everybody else? Has the movie changed your mental
> images? Do
> you now think of Daniel, Rupert and Emma when you think of the
> Trio? Or were
> your original ideas left more or less alone?

Heh, well, I just saw the movie again yesterday, so this is a good time for
this question. :)

First of all, I have to admit that I am, regrettably, a latecomer to HP
fandom.  I didn't read the books for the first time until last November.  I
suppose it was because of the movie, simply because HP was pushed in front
of my face again.  I'd heard about the books off and on and come close to
reading them a number of times, and honestly, I can't tell you why I didn't.
Seems downright ridiculous at this point...I could have had YEARS of
obsession rather than just months! ;)

So anyway, I may not be the best person to answer this, but here it is
anyway.  Daniel is *definitely* my Harry.  (One slight bitch tho - they
REALLY need to find a way to make his eyes green in the rest of the movies.
If it wasn't such a HUGE point in the books, I could deal better.  But we
all know it is.  Daniel, get used to the contacts sweetie. /bitch)  Rupert
is my Ron, tho I hope he gets a growth spurt soon.  Emma is not *quite* my
Hermione, prolly because I identify so much with Hermione and I'm not as
cute as Emma, but she's close enough that I like her.

I totally agree with what you said about the Quidditch scenes.  I also had a
hard time picturing them from reading the books, and the special effects for
that part were just incredible.  The Quidditch game is one of my favorite
parts of the movie, and I can't wait to see more Quidditch in future movies.
I will never find that boring.

Vicki




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Sat Feb  2 22:43:52 2002
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catorman)
Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 22:43:52 -0000
Subject: Movie Changing Book Perceptions
In-Reply-To: <F31SSfWXWzRPTNZStgL0000d34b@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <a3hq38+3h9b@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "Amber ?" <inviziblegirl at h...> wrote:
> So what about everybody else? Has the movie changed your mental 
images? Do 
> you now think of Daniel, Rupert and Emma when you think of the 
Trio? Or were 
> your original ideas left more or less alone?
> 
> ~Amber


I think that for a few short days after the film came out, the books 
were coloured for me by what I had seen in the film.  Thankfully, I 
am now back to my original imaginings.  I have to come clean and say 
that I hated the way Quidditch was done.  It just didn't work for me, 
and the hardest thing I have had to try and "forget" is the pitiful 
excuse for a commentry offered up by whoever it was playing Lee 
Jordan.  A great deal of comical opportunity was lost here - instead 
they went for "dramatic" stunts such as Oliver Wood and Angelina 
being knocked out, making the win supposedly more outstanding.  I 
wasn't really impressed - particularly with Harry's ridiculous 
surfing.  I also didn't really dig the whole Medieval type setting - 
I prefer my own interpretation which is very similar to the kind of 
high school seating stands kind of arrangement (strangely, 
considering I'm English).  It just seems to fit the plot much better.

I was quite happy with most of the actors except for Richard Harris - 
and I replay Stephen Fry over and over, as I think his Dumbledore 
voice is perfect.  Thankfully, I have managed to vanquish Richard 
Harris from my mind.  Harder to get rid of for me was the 
staircases.  Talking purely visually (as I have many, many gripes 
with the film which should really take me over to the movie list), I 
was very disappointed with the whole staircase arrangement.  The 
moving staircases didn't really work for me.  I know that they 
sometimes lead to places other than normal, and that their are trick 
steps etc. but I always imagined the move to happen mysteriously - 
not for them to start shifting when someone is actually on them.  I 
also thought that there is no way that Dumbledore would allow a 
staircase to shift to the out of bounds corridor.  

Finally, I loved Diagon Alley, although was disappointed with the 
Leaky Cauldron scene, and I am having to revisualise Hagrid's house.  
I have to keep repeating Hermione's classic line - "But Hagrid, you 
live in a wooden house!"

Catherine




From Zorb17 at aol.com  Sun Feb  3 02:06:43 2002
From: Zorb17 at aol.com (Zorb17 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 21:06:43 EST
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Movie Changing Book Perceptions
Message-ID: <114.bcb142d.298df533@aol.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "Amber ?" <inviziblegirl at h...> wrote:
> So what about everybody else? Has the movie changed your mental 
images? Do 
> you now think of Daniel, Rupert and Emma when you think of the 
Trio? Or were 
> your original ideas left more or less alone?
> 
> ~Amber

Thankfully, I've been able to keep my original mental images for the most part.  The only time I really had a problem with it was when I tried to read GoF right after seeing the movie for the second time.  I couldn't get Daniel, Emma, and Rupert out of my head.  It was so disturbing that I had to stop reading.  The next day, though, I was fine.

The funny thing is, I was actually looking forward to having a definite picture of some of the settings that were a bit vague in my mind.  The only one that's stuck with me at all is the Hogwarts Express interior.  I suppose I've been living with my own images for so long that they overrode the new input.


Zorb



From blpurdom at yahoo.com  Sun Feb  3 03:45:52 2002
From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 03:45:52 -0000
Subject: Movie Changing Book Perceptions
In-Reply-To: <a3hq38+3h9b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a3ibpg+q72f@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "catorman" <catherine at c...> wrote:
[snipped gripes about the movie--many of which I share <g>] 

> Finally, I loved Diagon Alley, although was disappointed with the 
> Leaky Cauldron scene, and I am having to revisualise Hagrid's 
> house.  I have to keep repeating Hermione's classic line - "But 
> Hagrid, you live in a wooden house!"

Diagon Alley did look lovely, but not the Leaky Cauldron, I agree.  
The funny thing about Hagrid's house, though, is that the stone 
house in the film made more sense.  In northern Scotland, when you 
see really old croft houses, they're made of stone with rather small 
windows.  Hagrid's house in the film is smaller than a croft house, 
though, almost like a traditional but-and-ben Scottish coalminer's 
house.  However, that would actually be luxurious, since the "but" 
was the public room and the "ben" was the bedroom, and Hagrid was 
supposed to live in a one-room hut.  But still, in northern 
Scotland, a stone house is much more usual, especially as an adjunct 
to a large (stone) castle and residence for a gamekeeper.  It's just 
too bad it ruins Hermione's line.

--Barb
(who wishes they'd kept Ron's line to Hermione, "Are you a witch or 
not?")





From racjom at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Feb  3 13:42:01 2002
From: racjom at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Mojca=20Rupnik?=)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 13:42:01 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Movie Changing Book Perceptions 
In-Reply-To: <1012737285.443.13835.m12@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20020203134201.63258.qmail@web14907.mail.yahoo.com>

 Amber:
So what about everybody else? Has the movie changed
your mental images? Do you now think of Daniel, Rupert
and Emma when you think of the Trio? Or were your
original ideas left more or less alone? 

Well, last week was the first time since I saw the
film (3 times) that I reread one of the books (PoA)
and I was really curious as to how my mental images
are going to react to the movie ones while reading. 
Most of the sets from the movie were so good that I
''let them stay'' :) The Diagon Alley especially.
Others are a mix of those from the film and those from
before. Except Hagrid's hut, which is supposed to be
wooden. And I didn't like the forest so much. 
>From the caracters the only one that really took over
was Robbie Coltrane. My Hagrid was completly wrong.
The big battle was between my Harry and Dan. I really
like Daniel, he's cute and his version of Harry is
great but he's different from my Harry. And so my
Harry kept his place. That doesn't mean I like Daniel
any less, though. And my Draco looks a little more
like Tom now, because I didn't have a very vivid image
of him. Everybody else stayad the same as before. 
The quidditch clothes and the balls were great and
they are what I see. I can imagine quidditch even
better than they showed it though. And I had this view
of the places for the spectators that is completly
different and I kept that.

Mojca 



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Everything you'll ever need on one web page
from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
http://uk.my.yahoo.com



From mmicklin at enteract.com  Sun Feb  3 15:28:56 2002
From: mmicklin at enteract.com (MJM)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 09:28:56 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Movie Changing Book Perceptions
References: <20020203134201.63258.qmail@web14907.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <001901c1acc8$23dff100$1597e5cf@tranio>

> Amber:
> So what about everybody else? Has the movie changed
> your mental images? Do you now think of Daniel, Rupert
> and Emma when you think of the Trio? Or were your
> original ideas left more or less alone?

I don't have many mental images of the books. I don't visualize the
characters, but I *hear* what (I think) they sound like. Stephen Fry and Jim
Dale have had more of an influence on how I think of the characters than the
actors.

Well, except for Alan Rickman. I can hear him as Snape when I read. Not that
I'm complaining.  ;-)

Diagon Alley looked right, as did Hogwarts. The only thing I didn't care for
was the Quidditch match. I never had a good visual grip on what it should
look like, but I know it's not supposed to remind me quite so strongly of
the Pod Race in Phantom Menace. <g>

MJM




From catlady at wicca.net  Mon Feb  4 06:05:08 2002
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 22:05:08 -0800
Subject: I don't believe I saw this
Message-ID: <3C5E2494.DFCAB698@wicca.net>

While looking for something altogether different, I found Harry Potter
underpants for boychildren: http://www.brieftales.com/btboys.shtml
------------------------------------------------------------------

          /\ /\                                          ___  ___
           + +     Mews and views                       ( @ \/ @ ) 
         >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston        \ @  @ / 
                                                          \ () /  
                     ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._             \  / 
                     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)       \/ 
                     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                    _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                   ((('   (((-(((''  ((((



From ewe2 at can.org.au  Mon Feb  4 06:43:50 2002
From: ewe2 at can.org.au (Sean Dwyer)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 17:43:50 +1100
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] ...but Is It Literature?
In-Reply-To: <003b01c1a68e$9d8b3f40$a20cdccb@price>
References: <003b01c1a68e$9d8b3f40$a20cdccb@price>
Message-ID: <20020204064350.GA1225@can.org.au>

On Sun, Jan 27, 2002 at 04:24:57AM +1100, Tabouli wrote:
> Now this reminds me of a plaguing question... What Is This Thing Called
> Literature??  What makes one book a trashy airport novel and another a
> respected classic, worthy of winning serious awards? Particularly
> interesting in the context of HP fandom, because HP has been classified into
> both (oooo, that glorious quote about "Is Britain a Harry Potter nation or a
> Beowulf nation?"!  Beautiful, just priceless).
[snip snip]

An apt quote, really, since Tolkien was responsible for revitalizing Beowulf
as important literature, and is wildly hated by the same literary
establishment like JKR even today :) He too placed more importance on
story-telling than the critics, who indeed seem more unhappy with a story if
it doesn't cover the great "themes" (apparently myth isnt themic enough) they
are currently in love with.

I never had a classical education, so I suppose I'm safe from all that :) All
the "greats" I read, I read because I was merely interested in the history of
literature rather than a need to identify with them, as seems the case with
the Critics. (If you haven't read it already, Tolkien's essay 'The Monsters
and the Critics' on Beowulf is a great analysis of story-telling and the
problems it poses for the literati :)

Give it a century or so, and JKR and Tolkien will be right up there with all
the other greats, if only as a socio-historical examination of the
20th-century novel as didactic social comment (tongue firmly in cheek)!

In my mind, literature (not Literature) is what people take to their hearts,
not some essay designed to maintain tenure.

Sean (making it up as he goes along)

-- 
Sean Dwyer <ewe2 at can.org.au>
Web: http://www.geocities.com/ewe2_au/



From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Mon Feb  4 10:52:05 2002
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley)
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 10:52:05 -0000
Subject: I don't believe I saw this
In-Reply-To: <3C5E2494.DFCAB698@wicca.net>
Message-ID: <a3lp4l+1t95@eGroups.com>

Rita mewed:
> While looking for something altogether different, I found Harry 
Potter underpants for boychildren: 
http://www.brieftales.com/btboys.shtml

It's alright, Rita, we're broadminded here - you don't have to 
pretend you were looking for something else

David




From bray.262 at osu.edu  Mon Feb  4 10:40:52 2002
From: bray.262 at osu.edu (Rachel Bray)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 10:40:52 EST5EDT
Subject: weird weekend....
Message-ID: <8BD1C76CC2@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>

It was a strange weekend.  Makes me wonder if my karma is 
out of whack.  :-)

First off, some friends of mine and I went to Applebys to 
eat.  It was VERY crowded and it took forever to get our 
table and then it took 15 minutes (15!!) for a waitress to 
even show up for our orders.  We didn't mention anything to 
her when she finally showed up but she immediately 
apologized, said she wasn't aware she was to be covering 
our table, blah blah so she sent over a manager.  He gave 
us our meals for free.  Hmmm...not bad at all.

Then we went over to AMC to see Lord of the Rings and when 
we got to the theater (after waiting an extra two hours 
because everything was sold out (including Harry again, I 
must add)) the poor guy who was cleaning the place was so 
overwhelmed so my friend and I (who were sent to save seats 
while the others raided the concession stand) helped him 
clean.  He came back later with two free movie passes.  
OK....too cool.  Free meal, free movie later on.

So the next day we were meeting up for our Super Bowl party 
and two of us went to Krogers to buy taco makings and there 
was a Harry Potter display.  There were all these cute 
cookie cutters, banks, figurines, etc. and they were all on 
sale.  So I grabbed the four different cookie cutters and a 
Nimbus Two Thousand nightlite.  When they rung up, they 
were registering their original prices and not their sale 
prices.  So, because of Krogers' policy, I got the cookie 
cutters and nightlite free.

WEIRD!

By the way, for anyone who watched the Super Bowl....I 
LOVED the Clydesdale "Respect" commercial.  That was 
wonderful.  Oh...and the robotic wars spoof.  :-)  And U2 
kicked, as usual. 

Rachel Bray
The Ohio State University
Fees, Deposits and Disbursements

Inigo: That Vizzini, he can *fuss*.
Fezzik: Fuss, fuss... I think he like to scream at *us*.
Inigo: Probably he means no *harm*.
Fezzik: He's really very short on *charm*.
Inigo: You have a great gift for rhyme.
Fezzik: Yes, yes, some of the time.
Vizzini: Enough of that!
Inigo: Fezzik, are there rocks ahead?
Fezzik: If there are, we all be dead!
Vizzini: No more rhymes now, I mean it!
Fezzik: Anybody want a peanut?
Vizzini: AAHHHHHH!!
          - The Princess Bride



From Joanne0012 at aol.com  Mon Feb  4 16:32:02 2002
From: Joanne0012 at aol.com (joanne0012)
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 16:32:02 -0000
Subject: weird weekend....
In-Reply-To: <8BD1C76CC2@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>
Message-ID: <a3md22+rli3@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "Rachel Bray" <bray.262 at o...> wrote:
> It was a strange weekend.  Makes me wonder if my karma is 
> out of whack.  :-)
>  He gave   us our meals for free.  Hmmm...not bad at all.
> 
>    He came back later with two free movie passes.  
> OK....too cool.  Free meal, free movie later on. 

> So, because of Krogers' policy, I got the cookie 
> cutters and nightlite free.

Yikes, Rachel, with that kind of Karma going, I think I personally would've headed 
for the nearest car dealership, LOL!




From witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com  Mon Feb  4 20:13:44 2002
From: witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com (Wanda Mallett)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 12:13:44 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] weird weekend....
In-Reply-To: <8BD1C76CC2@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>
Message-ID: <20020204201344.56886.qmail@web13701.mail.yahoo.com>


 
  Rachel Bray <bray.262 at osu.edu> wrote: 
It was a strange weekend.  Makes me wonder if my karma is 
out of whack.  :-)

No, your Karma was right on track! I would love to have a weekend as weird as yours! What a great post to cheer up anybody that there is a positive side out there to help us or just give us some great fun! My day will come, maybe when the kids are full grown and out on their own! Rachel don't look upon that as weird! That was a great positive side of your Karma working with you! Free food and free movie passes! Free Harry Potter goodies! That was a great weekend! Send some positive Karma my way, PLEASE!

Happy that your weekend was a great one!

Schnoogles,

Wanda the Witch of Revere,Massachusetts and Her Very Extremely Merry Band of Muggles 100% because The Patriots won! Dancing in Revere!!!!!!!!



---------------------------------
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions Great stuff seeking new owners! Bid now!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Tue Feb  5 10:05:36 2002
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (lupinesque)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 10:05:36 -0000
Subject: I don't believe I saw this
In-Reply-To: <a3lp4l+1t95@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a3oapg+dd5s@eGroups.com>

Rita wrote:

> > While looking for something altogether different, I found Harry 
> Potter underpants for boychildren: 
> http://www.brieftales.com/btboys.shtml

David wrote:
 
> It's alright, Rita, we're broadminded here - you don't have to 
> pretend you were looking for something else

She was looking for HP undies for women.  Rita, let me know when you 
find some.

Amy




From jenP_97 at yahoo.com  Tue Feb  5 16:44:26 2002
From: jenP_97 at yahoo.com (jenP_97)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 16:44:26 -0000
Subject: I don't believe I saw this
In-Reply-To: <a3oapg+dd5s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a3p25b+uftv@eGroups.com>


> Rita wrote:
> 
> > > While looking for something altogether different, I found Harry 
> > Potter underpants for boychildren: 
> > http://www.brieftales.com/btboys.shtml

And then..
 
> David wrote:
>  
> > It's alright, Rita, we're broadminded here - you don't have to 
> > pretend you were looking for something else

And then it was Amy's turn...
 
> She was looking for HP undies for women.  Rita, let me know when 
> you find some.
> 

Hehe... actually, I was going to mention that I took the 
/btboys.shtml off the end and saw the main site, and ever since, a 
vision of Tim in red thong underwear (for Valentine's day or 
something) has been haunting my brain ever since.

Jen (who means no offense to Tim, but he just doesn't seem the type 
to typically wear red thong underwear.  Of course, maybe for a 
special occasion...)




From jdumas at kingwoodcable.com  Tue Feb  5 18:44:57 2002
From: jdumas at kingwoodcable.com (Katze)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 12:44:57 -0600
Subject: Book 5 release date/UK end of term?
Message-ID: <3C602829.33C7CEA9@kingwoodcable.com>

It was stated on the Leaky Cauldron on Jan 29 (kindly pointed out by Amy
Z on the mail list), that "[a]pparently she [JKR] is unhappy with two
chapters, and is rewriting them and planning for an end of school term
(in the UK) release."

So...when the does the term end in the UK? Here in the states is usually
late May.

-Katze



From moongirlk at yahoo.com  Tue Feb  5 19:05:42 2002
From: moongirlk at yahoo.com (moongirlk)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 19:05:42 -0000
Subject: I don't believe I saw this
In-Reply-To: <3C5E2494.DFCAB698@wicca.net>
Message-ID: <a3pae6+vl5v@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., Rita Winston <catlady at w...> wrote:
> While looking for something altogether different, I found Harry 
Potter
> underpants for boychildren: http://www.brieftales.com/btboys.shtml

Poor Rita!
What I can't believe is that there are mothers out there who think it 
would be great fun for their kids to pose for underwear adds.  Poor 
little guys must love that job - can you imagine their friends 
teasing them if they find out?  Can't have been the kids' idea.
Ah the stage mother!

kimberly




From Joanne0012 at aol.com  Tue Feb  5 20:12:29 2002
From: Joanne0012 at aol.com (joanne0012)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 20:12:29 -0000
Subject: Book 5 release date/UK end of term?
In-Reply-To: <3C602829.33C7CEA9@kingwoodcable.com>
Message-ID: <a3pebd+ne3q@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., Katze <jdumas at k...> wrote:
So...when the does the term end in the UK? Here in the states is usually
> late May.

In your state, maybe.  Here in Mass. it's mid- to late June and in England it's late 
July.  When I was arranging a home exchange last spring, most of the English kids 
were getting out around July 20 to 25.




From jdumas at kingwoodcable.com  Tue Feb  5 20:46:28 2002
From: jdumas at kingwoodcable.com (Katze)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 14:46:28 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Book 5 release date/UK end of term?
References: <a3pebd+ne3q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3C6044A4.7F6CDA86@kingwoodcable.com>

joanne0012 wrote:

> In your state, maybe.  Here in Mass. it's mid- to late June and in England it's late
> July.  When I was arranging a home exchange last spring, most of the English kids
> were getting out around July 20 to 25.

I reckon they'll do the traditional July release. I wonder if we're
going to have to wait only a year or another 2 years for the next book.
Oh well...got plenty of reading to do with my other books...so I better
get crackin!

-Katze



From pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no  Tue Feb  5 20:57:20 2002
From: pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no (pengolodh_sc)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 20:57:20 -0000
Subject: I don't believe I saw this
In-Reply-To: <a3pae6+vl5v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a3pgvg+ik5j@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "moongirlk" <moongirlk at y...> wrote:
> Poor Rita!
> What I can't believe is that there are mothers out there who
> think it would be great fun for their kids to pose for
> underwear adds.  Poor little guys must love that job - can
> you imagine their friends teasing them if they find out? 
> Can't have been the kids' idea.  Ah the stage mother!
> 
> kimberly

Those aren't kids - they used plastic mannequins of the type that is 
used in shop-windows.  That aside, kids who model for companies 
should normally get paid for it, and their faces are not shown anyway 
if they are below mid-late teens.

Best regards
Christian Stub?
who thinks Yahoo!Groups is being a rather slow service these days.




From miss_megan at dingoblue.net.au  Tue Feb  5 22:05:28 2002
From: miss_megan at dingoblue.net.au (snuffles_macgoo)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 22:05:28 -0000
Subject: I don't believe I saw this
In-Reply-To: <a3pgvg+ik5j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a3pkv9+9h8a@eGroups.com>

More on the underwear (Rita - 'fess up - what *were* you looking for? 
I do hope it wasn't the aforementioned red g-string for Tim!)


> Those aren't kids - they used plastic mannequins of the type that 
is 
> used in shop-windows.  That aside, kids who model for companies 
> should normally get paid for it, and their faces are not shown 
anyway 
> if they are below mid-late teens.
> 
> Best regards
> Christian Stub?

Christian - while I can't coment on this particular situation some of 
what you say is not *enterly* true in au, as I am unfortunately able 
to personally confirm! One of my sibs was a acting mad young person 
who acted in shows, appeared in ads and modeled for catalogs. Real 
Life young ppl were used, complete with vison of faces. Payment of 
course was provided.

storm, who still recoils in embaressment from the horrible memory of 
being dragged along to watch adults and children get thier kit off 
and model underwear. Oh ick! Scared for life I've been.




From dai_evans at yahoo.com  Tue Feb  5 22:15:06 2002
From: dai_evans at yahoo.com (dai_evans)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 22:15:06 -0000
Subject: Book 5 release date/UK end of term?
In-Reply-To: <3C602829.33C7CEA9@kingwoodcable.com>
Message-ID: <a3plha+vp6o@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., Katze <jdumas at k...> wrote:
> It was stated on the Leaky Cauldron on Jan 29 (kindly pointed out 
by Amy
> Z on the mail list), that "[a]pparently she [JKR] is unhappy with 
two
> chapters, and is rewriting them and planning for an end of school 
term
> (in the UK) release."
> 
> So...when the does the term end in the UK? Here in the states is 
usually
> late May.

Well, we're currently in the spring term, which will end just before 
easter, so sometime in April, I would guess.


Dai (scarred veteren of UK schooling)




From blpurdom at yahoo.com  Tue Feb  5 23:23:43 2002
From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 23:23:43 -0000
Subject: Book 5 release date/UK end of term?
In-Reply-To: <a3plha+vp6o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a3pphv+do97@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "dai_evans" <dai_evans at y...> wrote:
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., Katze <jdumas at k...> wrote:
> > It was stated on the Leaky Cauldron on Jan 29 (kindly pointed 
> > out by Amy Z on the mail list), that "[a]pparently she [JKR] is 
> > unhappy with two chapters, and is rewriting them and planning 
> > for an end of school term (in the UK) release."
> > 
> > So...when the does the term end in the UK? Here in the states is 
> > usually late May.
> 
> Well, we're currently in the spring term, which will end just 
> before easter, so sometime in April, I would guess.

The question is, which term does she mean?  And what happened to 
that scary statement from the publisher around New Year's that if 
she didn't turn in a manuscript like, yesterday, it wasn't going to 
appear at all this year?  Were they just trying to light a fire 
under her to get the rewrites on those two chapters finished?  Kind 
of a nasty technique, IMO.  (And causing needless heart palpitations 
in those of us waiting for book five.)

--Barb
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Psych
http://schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb 





From kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk  Tue Feb  5 23:21:24 2002
From: kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk (Kathryn)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 23:21:24 -0000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Book 5 release date/UK end of term?
References: <a3plha+vp6o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000601c1aeae$5aa21a00$ab4e86d9@monica>

Well that brings up a good point, which term did you mean? The Easter term will end just before Easter (well there's a novelty) and the summer term in July

K
If an advisor says to me "My liege, he is but one man. What can one man possibly do?", I will reply "This." and kill the advisor.
http://minievil.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: dai_evans 
  To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2002 10:15 PM
  Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Book 5 release date/UK end of term?


  --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., Katze <jdumas at k...> wrote:
  > It was stated on the Leaky Cauldron on Jan 29 (kindly pointed out 
  by Amy
  > Z on the mail list), that "[a]pparently she [JKR] is unhappy with 
  two
  > chapters, and is rewriting them and planning for an end of school 
  term
  > (in the UK) release."
  > 
  > So...when the does the term end in the UK? Here in the states is 
  usually
  > late May.

  Well, we're currently in the spring term, which will end just before 
  easter, so sometime in April, I would guess.


  Dai (scarred veteren of UK schooling)


        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
              ADVERTISEMENT
             
       
       

  ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________

  Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the group's Admin Files!
  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/

  Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying!

  Is your message...
  An announcement of merchandise, news etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements.
  Movie-related? Send it to HPFGU-Movie.
  Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups.
  None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter.
  Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com

  Unsubscribing? Email HPFGU-OTChatter-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
  ____________________________________________________________


  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Wed Feb  6 01:57:45 2002
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (lupinesque)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 01:57:45 -0000
Subject: Book 5 release date/UK end of term?
In-Reply-To: <a3plha+vp6o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a3q2ip+uc0e@eGroups.com>

The scarred Dai wrote:

> Well, we're currently in the spring term, which will end just before 
> easter, so sometime in April, I would guess.

The rumor was from someone who works in publishing whose company was 
told to "reserve all of April and May."  So, uh, what does that mean 
exactly?  Be ready to roll the presses in April (meaning a later, 
perhaps July, release)?  Be ready to do promotions in April (be still 
my heart)?  It sounds like the former, as he/she said "my company 
prints all the HP books."  Then there's the testimony of Dai, 
which suggests that a May release doesn't fit any of the 
facts.  Grrrrrr.  The only bright side is that it's too cold where I 
live to sleep out on the sidewalk in April, and my April is going to 
be an insanely busy month at work.  In July I could manage it.

Ali, you started this.  Where are you?  Details, dahlink, we crave 
details!

Amy




From andrew_macian at yahoo.com  Wed Feb  6 03:58:28 2002
From: andrew_macian at yahoo.com (Andrew MacIan)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 19:58:28 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Editors' little pranks {WAS: Re: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Book 5 release date/UK end of term?}
In-Reply-To: <a3pphv+do97@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20020206035828.60676.qmail@web9501.mail.yahoo.com>

Greetings from Andrew!

Quoting from Barry Longyear (the feture article in the
Winter/02 SFWA Quarterly):  "...Gene Fowler, who once
said: 'An editor should have a pimp for a brother, so
he'd have somebody to look up to.' "

--- blpurdom <blpurdom at yahoo.com> wrote:
{snip}

> And what
> happened to 
> that scary statement from the publisher around New
> Year's that if 
> she didn't turn in a manuscript like, yesterday, it
> wasn't going to 
> appear at all this year?  Were they just trying to
> light a fire 
> under her to get the rewrites on those two chapters
> finished?  Kind 
> of a nasty technique, IMO.
{snip}


This is, alas, one of the more common tricks that
editors use to get the MS from an author who
wants/needs to re-write a huge swath of it...or worse,
just needs to tweak it 'a bit more'.  John Campbell
polished this to a high art at 'Astounding/Analog';
Shelly Shapiro, when she was running a stable at Del
Rey inherited John's laurels.  Having watched one of
my best friends go under the harrow whilst red-lining
galleys for Shelly, I understand the necessity for the
process of ripping the MS from the hands of the author
at some point in time.

It can be seen to be nasty, but if you consider that
production schedules can take up to three months for a
novel-- and Longyear has a *very* good discussion of
what goes into getting a book from MS into stores,
from a production POV-- any time saved by the editor
'up front' will mean the book is is our hands all the
sooner.

Cheers,

Drieux

=====
ICQ # 76184391

'Each game of chess means there's one less
      Variation left to be played;
 Each day got through means one or two less
      Mistakes remain to be made.'
      --'Chess' by Sir Tim Rice

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
http://greetings.yahoo.com



From dai_evans at yahoo.com  Wed Feb  6 09:34:29 2002
From: dai_evans at yahoo.com (dai_evans)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 09:34:29 -0000
Subject: Book 5 release date/UK end of term?
In-Reply-To: <a3q2ip+uc0e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a3qtb5+ttb0@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "lupinesque" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> The rumor was from someone who works in publishing whose company 
was 
> told to "reserve all of April and May."  So, uh, what does that 
mean 
> exactly?  Be ready to roll the presses in April (meaning a later, 
> perhaps July, release)?  Be ready to do promotions in April (be 
still 
> my heart)?  It sounds like the former, as he/she said "my company 
> prints all the HP books."  Then there's the testimony of Dai, 
> which suggests that a May release doesn't fit any of the 
> facts. 

I just looked it up, and Easter is at the end of March this year, so 
unless they can somehow rush produce the book, ship it, and do all 
the promotion within the next 52 days, then I doubt we'll see it this 
term. Perhaps next term, which I guess will finish in schools about 
half way through July.

Dai




From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Wed Feb  6 13:04:59 2002
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 13:04:59 -0000
Subject: Book 5 release date/UK end of term?
In-Reply-To: <a3q2ip+uc0e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a3r9lr+ro86@eGroups.com>

quin peel us wrote:

> The rumor was from someone who works in publishing whose company 
was 
> told to "reserve all of April and May."  So, uh, what does that 
mean 
> exactly?

It seems like that refers to the actual printing of the books - 
presumably printing promotional material will be later (it will 
usually include the date, no?).  The books then need distributing 
(IIRC Amazon had GOF sitting in a vault for a while before Jul 8 
2000) - I don't know how long that takes.

I do wonder if 'end of term' is the beginnings of a weasel-word 
strategy for missing 8 July: (Summer) term ends, as Dai said, round 
about the 20th July, so I can see a press release forming along the 
lines of 'In order to avoid causing a distractipon during the busy 
examination period at school, Bloomsbury have responsibly decided to 
defer release until the beginning of the school holidays...'  Most 
major exams are in fact over by July 8, but so what?  And Scholastic 
would just have to come bumping along after if the real reasons are 
logistical delays.

David, wondering if JKR is about to discover a gaping plot hole in 
Chapter 4.




From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Wed Feb  6 14:41:12 2002
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 14:41:12 -0000
Subject: OOP date - Bloomsbury view
Message-ID: <a3rfa8+kodh@eGroups.com>

>From Bloomsbury's FAQs:

http://www.bloomsburymagazine.com/harrypotter/

"When will the fifth book be published?
We are not going to set a publication date for the fifth book until 
the book has been finished. In a perfect world the date would be July 
2002, but we will wait until the book is written before making a 
decision. We will let you know more information as soon as we can."

That sounds like July at the earliest, without totally ruling out an 
earlier date.  Note no mention of *when* in July.

The reason I bother to mention it is that, in the past, the 
Bloomsbury site has been conspicuously silent about the date of book 
5.  Putting it in their FAQs sounds like a slight increase in 
confidence about the date - can you imagine any *more* frequently 
asked question?.  As it is, most of us would have understood 'perfect 
world' (in the sense they mean) to equate to 8 July 2001.

David

OK, OK, there's Hermione's age, too.




From tabouli at unite.com.au  Wed Feb  6 15:56:19 2002
From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 02:56:19 +1100
Subject: Optimistic attempt to explain postmodernism
Message-ID: <002701c1af27$05cd23c0$4131c2cb@price>

OK, Naama, let me take a shot at answering your (perfectly reasonable) queries about postmodernism.  I've been putting it off, because it really is a tough job...

One warning though - I'm a bit of a pretender in the postmodern department... haven't really studied it properly (one short lecture series on postmodern therapy in 1992 maketh not a postmodern expert), and couldn't honestly claim to understand it all that well.  Postmodernism is enough to make anyone's brain hurt.  My brother did a bit in his Architecture degree, and he used to come crawling shamefaced into my room with his textbook and ask me to "translate" the postmodern stuff... (I should, technically, be stronger on cultural relativism, but we'll have to see how I go)  All assistance from people who've actually studied postmodernism properly in literatuve classes welcome... (Luke??)

Naama:
> Well, here goes. From what I gather, postmodernism basically creates 
or upholds cultural relativism, right? Truth and beauty are regarded 
as specific to cultures or communities (forms of life or whatever). 
Now all this is meant to break the eurocentric, white, male, 
christian cultural dominance, right? Clear room for other voices to 
be heard - Vietnamese women? Bornean hunters? Yappese? etc.?<

My rather sketchy understanding of postmodernism is that its central premise is Jacques Derrida's famous quote "Il n'y a pas de hors-texte."  (roughly, "There is nothing outside the text"). Expanded into less snappy but more explanatory format, what I think this means is as follows.

Every individual's "reality" (point of view, life, whatever) is fundamentally subjective. The only information I have about the world, and the other people in it is the information I take in through my senses and process through my brain into meaningful patterns.  I do not have direct access to any subjective reality other than my own.  There is no way of looking at the world objectively, because there is no way of removing the subjectivity from the process of observation.  *However*...

I can indirectly *infer* things about other people's realities.  How?  By what they communicate to me, using language (verbal and non-verbal). This language forms the "text".  I can also try to communicate things about *my* reality by producing texts of my own for other people.  All the same, under strict postmodernism, there is *no* objective reality which exists independently of the observer (or at least, if there is, we have no way of accessing it because people are inescapably subjective).  All we have are the texts we "read" and produce.  Hence "There is nothing outside the text".

OK, now let's bring in the cultural relativism element (as if it wasn't already complicated enough).

My "subjective reality" does not exist in a vacuum, of course.  It is the product of the "texts" to which I have been exposed throughout my life.  For example, as a small child, my parents taught me how to use a knife and fork.  They read a verbal "text" of appropriate Australian cutlery use to me, in order to shape my behaviour into something which would be acceptable in my society (had I been brought up in the US, their text would of course have told me to use my fork "upside down"...).  I would also have been exposed to countless other "texts" which told me about appropriate behaviour for a girl (as opposed to a boy), prevailing attitudes towards non-Anglo-Saxons in Australian society, how relationships form, how to ask questions in a polite way, what right and wrong were, and so on, and so on.

People who live in the same society will have had their subjective realities shaped by a lot of the same texts.  Their media will hand them a lot of texts explaining what sort of people are beautiful, what sort of behaviour is "cool", what sort of house to aspire to, what people are expected to be doing at different ages, what makes a good parent, and so on.  As a result, there will be a level of commonality (intertextuality?) among people from the same society - they are likely to share a lot of values, and beliefs, and assumptions.

(I don't like this "text" stuff - silly postmodernspeak, ick.  Adds an unnecessary level of confusion.  But anyway)

>What I don't get is, if cultural relativism holds, how is it that a 
person from one culture can hear a person from another culture at 
all? If criteria of truth/beauty are cultural specific, then what are 
we left with other than cultural specific canons that are inherently 
incomprehensible and therefore worthless for other cultures?
In other words, how can true conversations be held between people and 
*particularly* between cultures according to the postmodernist view 
(that is, without accepting the humanist assumption of an underlying, 
common human nature?)<

How can a person hear someone from another culture at all?  Well, the point is, they often can't, or at least, they don't hear the message the other person is trying to send.  And discover that the people in the foreign culture in which they're embedded don't interpret their messages the way they intended.  That's why people get culture shock!

No-one questions that's there's an underlying, common human *biology*.  Regardless of culture, the wake/sleep, birth/death, breed/feed is undeniably universal.  As a result, a large proportion of all human "texts" concern the same subjects, which is a start, surely.  All the same...

I don't think there's any question that the criteria for truth and beauty and so on are culture-specific!  (I studied some very interesting stuff about the acceptable domains of "white lies" across cultures once... for example, if a friend asked you for a lift in his/her car 2min up the road, in some Aboriginal cultures, an acceptable excuse would be "sorry, it's too far."  Read: NO.  In Anglophone cultures, this would be unacceptable and rude, a blatant "lie".  A more appropriate excuse might be "sorry, I'm a bit too busy at the moment", even if it wasn't strictly true.  Different text, same meaning: NO).  However, this doesn't make conversations across cultures (or subcultures, for that matter) worthless or incomprehensible by any means!

Let's steer away from "culture" for a moment and look at languages instead, which provide a good illustration with less potential edgy areas.  Let's take Finnish and Malay, as examples of widely separated languages.  Finnish would have a word for "reindeer", because there are reindeer in Finland; Malay would have a word for "banana", because there are bananas in Malaysia.  Once upon a time, these would have been language-specific words that were inherently incomprehensible and worthless to the other group.  What use would a Finn have for the word banana, when s/he would probably never see such a fruit in his/her entire life??  What use would a Malay have for the word reindeer?

Enter 20th century accessible international transport and mass media.  Somewhere, someone produces a series of TV documentaries which introduce the Malays and Finns to each others' traditional diets.  It's in English, but by means of some English-Finnish and English-Malay bilinguals, the documentaries are broadcast in both countries, subtitled in the local language.

Suddenly, Malays have a use for the concept of a reindeer, as they have become aware of their existence, and aeroplanes mean they are able to visit Finland, if they want.  Their language still has no word for it, but they construct a term from existing words, like "large snow deer" or something (Tabouli regrets not having a Malay-English dictionary).  Likewise, the Finns now need a word for banana, and can now even buy them due to very expensive import deals with Malaysia.  They decide to modify the original word into something which sounds Finnish and call it a "vanan" (Tabouli likewise regrets her lack of a Finnish-English dictionary).  One day, two international students studying in London meet up, one Finnish, one Malay.  They have a lively conversation in English about reindeer and bananas.

(Tabouli wonders if she's getting a long way off track here, and has, figuratively speaking, taken the long way round via Helsinki...)

The point is that the fact that the concept "reindeer" is (geography and) language-specific and therefore superficially incomprehensible and worthless for someone who speaks the language of a tropical country does not mean that a Finn and a Malay could not have a meaningful conversation about reindeer.  It just means that there's a little more involved.

Perhaps our theoretical Finn might have to explain what a reindeer is to our theoretical Malay.  For this to happen, they would need to have (a) a shared language, (b) some shared concepts, and (c) the ability to use these two factors to negotiate a new, shared concept which they can talk about.

Conversation between Finn and Malay in English (second language for both)

Finn: Do you have deer in Malaysia?
Malay: Deer?  What are they?
Finn: They're a sort of hoofed animal, like... like a cow, or a sheep, but thinner, with longer legs.  And antlers, you know, horns branched like a tree (mimes horns with index fingers either side of head).
Malay: Ah yes!  A (insert Malay word for antelope)!  We have those in Malaysia.
Finn: A reindeer is a very large deer, about as tall as a small horse.  It lives on moss in the tundra, the cold place with no trees in the north of Finland.  Here, come to the computer, I'll find a picture on the Internet to show you.

(etc.)

(Tabouli feels that her hypothetical situation is getting more and more bizarre, but never mind).

Hence the Finn, through comparing shared concepts like "cow" and "horse" and "tree", miming, quantifying words like "thinner", pictures and so on, has now established a new concept with the Malay, and they can now run into the sunset and eat curry together in Soho while having a long, involved conversation about reindeer.

The main difference between "reindeer" and "the Finnish concept of truth" is that it's obvious to any Finn (a) that a Malay may well not know what a reindeer is, and (b) why this is the case.  When it comes to things like "right and wrong" and "truth" and "how to ask for something nicely", a lot of people don't realise that *these* concepts are just as culture-specific as the concept "reindeer" is region-specific.  They just assume that everyone has the same concepts of these things as they do themselves.  Another issue is that it's easier to describe something physical and concrete than it is to explain an abstract concept, as anyone who has played Pictionary or charades knows well...

(I sometimes use charades exercises in my training sessions for this reason)

If I may blow a small riff on my own trumpet, this is where cross-cultural trainers come in... they help people understand that their values regarding human behaviour are culturally defined not universal, and act as an interpreter between cultures, teaching people the differences between how "truth" is defined in Finland and Malaysia, to prepare their Malay clients for their trip to Finland.

Tabouli
who is not sure about the post she has just written (whether it makes any sense at all, whether it answers Naama's queries, etc.) but has decided to shut her eyes and send it anyway, bizarre Finno-Malay case study and all...


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From cindysphynx at home.com  Wed Feb  6 16:21:43 2002
From: cindysphynx at home.com (cindysphynx)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 16:21:43 -0000
Subject: Book 5 release date/UK end of term?
In-Reply-To: <a3r9lr+ro86@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a3rl6n+e7p9@eGroups.com>

David wrote:


> David, wondering if JKR is about to discover a gaping plot hole in 
> Chapter 4.

My reaction to the rumor that JKR is unhappy with two chapters was 
one of alarm.  The last time she was unhappy with a chapter was 
GoF, "The Dark Mark." Apparently, she wrote it again and again, and 
it still wound up being especially choppy and weak, IMHO.  The last 
time she had difficulty getting a book written was CoS, which is my 
least favorite.  So I'm seeing some warning signs.

Does this mean OoP will have two chapters that are choppy and weak?  
Maybe JKR should just release the darn thing as in, and we can get 
back to her on how it could have been improved.  :-)

Cindy (standing firm that OoP has to be released before the CoS movie)




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Wed Feb  6 18:08:32 2002
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (lupinesque)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 18:08:32 -0000
Subject: Book 5 rewrites/TheQuestionThatMustNotBeNamed
In-Reply-To: <a3rl6n+e7p9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a3rrf0+c3f8@eGroups.com>

Cindy wrote:

> My reaction to the rumor that JKR is unhappy with two chapters was 
> one of alarm.  The last time she was unhappy with a chapter was 
> GoF, "The Dark Mark." Apparently, she wrote it again and again, and 
> it still wound up being especially choppy and weak, IMHO.  The last 
> time she had difficulty getting a book written was CoS, which is my 
> least favorite.  So I'm seeing some warning signs.

I didn't think "The Dark Mark" was choppy and weak.  It isn't the most 
exciting chapter, but it's very well-written, IMO, gracefully 
bearing the burden of a hell of a lot of plot expo (and all cleverly 
done to cast suspicion on various red herrings).  If I'd had to pick 
out the chapter that JKR had to rewrite 13 times, I'd never have known 
which one.  But then, I also like CoS and don't think it shows any 
signs of the agonizing writer's block she suffered.

I guess I'm getting kind of on-topic here.  If you want to continue, 
let's take our gloves over to the main list.

As long as I'm picking on Cindy <g>:  your hilarious post on The Many 
Errors of Severus Snape asserts what even the most ardent 
young-Hermione acolyte has never claimed: that she is 10 *at the end* 
of PS (and 11 through most of CoS).  She either turns 11 or 12 the 
September they begin school; i.e., she is either 2 months younger than 
Harry, or 10 months older.  If she were 10 when she solved Snape's 
riddle, she'd be 14 months younger.  I refuse to mention this on the 
main list for fear of re-awakening That Question.

Amy




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Wed Feb  6 20:48:14 2002
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (milztoday)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 20:48:14 -0000
Subject: Wizalympics
Message-ID: <a3s4qe+7kfo@eGroups.com>

Okay in the spirit of the upcoming Muggle Winter Olympic Games, what 
would be the events in the Wizard Winter Olympic Games?

Or if the characters in the Potterverse were Olympians, which Winter 
sport would they be in?

Milz




From caliburncy at yahoo.com  Wed Feb  6 21:54:50 2002
From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 21:54:50 -0000
Subject: Optimistic attempt to explain postmodernism
In-Reply-To: <002701c1af27$05cd23c0$4131c2cb@price>
Message-ID: <a3s8na+m45v@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "Tabouli" <tabouli at u...> wrote:
> All assistance from people who've actually studied postmodernism
> properly in literatuve classes welcome... (Luke??)

Nope, sorry, not me.  I have (currently) not formally studied 
postmodernism and my understanding of it therefore is very much a 
layman's understanding based on things I have read.  Where literature 
is concerned, I really have a better handle on modernism and 
deconstructionism and all things preceeding them--but even in these 
realms my understanding is based upon a (perhaps slightly above 
average) amount of reading on the subjects (i.e. some critical 
analyses and theories), not much in the way of formal education.  
Really, my biggest area of interest is in none of these things, but 
in story-telling, which, frankly, is hardly the domain of any of the 
above.  Incidentally, this is why I often include a disclaimer before 
I start espousing my opinions on any form of literary analysis, 
because I do not claim to be (nor do I wish to be) an accredited and 
authoritative pundit.  I am just a guy who reads, and who subscribes 
to the opinion that analysis is the domain of anyone, not just the 
fellow with most prestigious-looking font-type on his degree.  So I 
tend to find myself agreeing with authors moreso than critics--
although interestingly enough, I probably agree with critics moreso 
than the general population does.

Anyway, this is besides the point.  Anyone wishing to supplement 
their understanding of postmodernism in general (far beyond just the 
realm of literature), might try the essay below.  Which is not to say 
that I personally either agree or disagree with this essay (although 
I will admit that I find occasional elements of it to be a bit 
pretentious due to the author), only that I find it to be fairly 
representative of postmodernist thinking (of course, someone more 
familiar with postmodernism than I might pick up many discrepancies 
that would escape my notice), and gives a reasonable history and 
background that should be fairly sufficient for someone unfamiliar 
with the referenced texts, even though it does not appear to be 
designed with the layman in mind.  It's not perfect, or even good, 
just serviceable . . . and I have no doubt there's a better overview 
out there somewhere, but I'm too lazy to find it.  When you get 
bored, you can just stop--the most relevant stuff for our discussion 
here is toward the beginning, I think:

http://academic.brooklyn.cuny.edu/education/jlemke/papers/jsalt.htm


Also of some interest, though I think of lesser assistance (since it 
focuses on anthropology and is generally more poorly constructed), 
might be:

http://www.as.ua.edu/ant/Faculty/murphy/436/pomo.htm


Of course, I have no doubt that the only way to truly understand 
postmodernism (or any critical theory, for that matter) is through 
the primary sources of the movement's "leaders", not through this 
kind of interpretive, overview stuff.  Looking at the primary sources 
would doubtless reveal that postmodernism, as such, has no single 
source but is a collective mishmash of the writings of various 
scholars, and hence, no single, accurate definition or movement or 
school of thought.  To discuss postmodernism in general is probably 
less enlightening than to discuss, for example, the writings of 
Lyotard specifically in addition to the writings of Foucalt 
specifically in addition to . . .

But hey! I have better things to do.  No offense to the 
postmodernists.

-Luke




From cindysphynx at home.com  Wed Feb  6 23:23:08 2002
From: cindysphynx at home.com (cindysphynx)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 23:23:08 -0000
Subject: Wizalympics
In-Reply-To: <a3s4qe+7kfo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a3sdss+ch1m@eGroups.com>

Milz wrote:

> Okay in the spirit of the upcoming Muggle Winter Olympic Games, 
what 
> would be the events in the Wizard Winter Olympic Games?
> 
> Or if the characters in the Potterverse were Olympians, which 
Winter 
> sport would they be in?
> 


OK, I'll play.

Cross-Country Apparating? :-)

Maybe another :-) will help.  No?

Oh well.

Cindy (who is starting to like the Winter Games a great deal now that 
people do all sorts of really dangerous things, and who thinks the 
Winter Games are officially more dangerous than the Summer Games)





From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Wed Feb  6 23:31:48 2002
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 23:31:48 -0000
Subject: Optimistic attempt to explain postmodernism
In-Reply-To: <a3s8na+m45v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a3sed4+8c14@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "caliburncy" <caliburncy at y...> wrote:

> When you get 
> bored, you can just stop--the most relevant stuff for our 
discussion 
> here is toward the beginning, I think:
> 
> http://academic.brooklyn.cuny.edu/education/jlemke/papers/jsalt.htm
> 
> 
OK I did get bored, but I read a fair bit.  The bit I don't get is 
this.  If I look at my carpet, I see a green carpet.  If somebody 
else looks at it, I can never know what they really see, inside their 
head.  Fair enough.  And they can call it red, or fuzzwurble, if they 
want to.

But if I get something else green, I can look at it and see that it's 
more or less the same colour as my carpet.  And I can be fairly 
confident that the other guy will agree that what he sees is the same 
colour as the carpet.  Which gives us the basis for agreeing that 
there is something called 'green'.

As I understand it, we have just 'constructed' greenness, in 
postmodernspeak.  And, yes, it was a social and linguistic activity.  
I feel that postmodernism wants to go one further, though, and say 
that because it was constructed by me and my friend, it has no 
validity for anybody else.  If my friend had looked at the carpet 
with *his* friend, they would have come up with something completely 
different.  I think the PMs' argument is that, say, if they come up 
with 'thickness of pile' instead of 'colour', then that's just as 
valid and I shouldn't impose my colourism on their carpetview.  But 
it seems to me to end up saying that we can't communicate - we have 
our colourist culture and they have their pileist one and all we can 
do is live in accepting mutual incomprehension.

The desire to learn from others is thus IMO undermined in the 
laudable attempt to free us from tyrannical teachers.

It's late and I'm rambling.

David




From gypsycaine at juno.com  Thu Feb  7 10:43:44 2002
From: gypsycaine at juno.com (gypsycaine at juno.com)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 05:43:44 -0500
Subject: Fw: Yahoo! Clubs Club Masters
Message-ID: <20020207.054345.-100333.0.gypsycaine@juno.com>

From: clubmasterz at yahoo.com
Important Club Information!

The conversion from Clubs to Groups has begun. It is being done
alphabetically, Clubs with URLs beginning with numbers or a# have already
been converted:
http://search.clubs.yahoo.com/search/clubs?p=a1

There are some things to note however. Were receiving reports that
photos are *not* being converted, so you are advised to back up your
pictures ASAP if you wish to save them. As far as we can tell everything
else is being converted ok (members, messages, home page info, colours,
bookmarks, etc.)

All Clubs are being converted into web-only/anonymous enabled, meaning
they allow people to sign up with a hidden e-mail and IP address if they
wish. This is not reversible, so converted Clubs will not have polls. It
should also be noted that even with the web-only/anonymous option
enabled, when signing up the default option for message delivery is set
to individual messages by email, so if you suddenly get furious new
members asking you why youre flooding them, you know why. Current
members are set to whatever they had it set to in the Club.

The dates, times and IDs of each message appear to be intact, with the
exception of the first message.

IP and e-mail addresses are still hidden on old posts like they were in
Clubs.

Converted Clubs are defaulted to allow non-members to view messages, and
every other option is hidden, just like in clubs.

The date people joined is publicly displayed in the member list.

Currently members dont have access to the invite feature.

There are still many more things that need to be discovered, some of
which wont be possible until one of our own Clubs is converted, so stay
tuned and keep checking in on Club Masters and The Last Line for up to
date info.

Good luck, we hope your Clubs make it out ok
-=Noc & Blue

****************************************************
You are receiving this message because you belong to
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/clubmasters



From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu Feb  7 16:04:51 2002
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (lupinesque)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 16:04:51 -0000
Subject: ISO HP playing cards
Message-ID: <a3u8j3+102kj@eGroups.com>

Hi all,

A girl I know had a pack of regular playing cards with HPSS stills on 
each one--they were just terrific, though on reflection I don't think 
there was a single solo shot of Ron.  Anyhoo.  I really want to get a 
pack.  She got them at Sprawl-Mart, so I finally checked my principles 
at the door (they have a box there for just that purpose) and went 
looking for them.  No good.  I checked the Wal-Mart website and can't 
find them there either.  

Does anyone know where they're still available?  I'm talking a regular 
52-card deck, not the Quidditch game or the Uno version, and with 
stills rather than drawings.

Thanks in advance,
Amy




From Joanne0012 at aol.com  Thu Feb  7 16:17:56 2002
From: Joanne0012 at aol.com (joanne0012)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 16:17:56 -0000
Subject: ISO HP playing cards
In-Reply-To: <a3u8j3+102kj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a3u9bk+6hk2@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "lupinesque" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
 
> Does anyone know where they're still available?  I'm talking a regular 
> 52-card deck, not the Quidditch game or the Uno version, and with 
> stills rather than drawings.

eBay, of course!  Do a search on "potter playing cards" or whatever other phrase 
also makes sense.  Here's an example:

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1701427428




From m.bockermann at t-online.de  Thu Feb  7 21:32:34 2002
From: m.bockermann at t-online.de (m.bockermann at t-online.de)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 22:32:34 +0100
Subject: Book 5 release date/UK end of term?
References: <1013082344.439.87087.m12@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <008701c1b01f$fbd80e80$351ce23e@oemcomputer>

Cindy wrote
My reaction to the rumor that JKR is unhappy with two chapters was
one of alarm.  The last time she was unhappy with a chapter was
GoF, "The Dark Mark." Apparently, she wrote it again and again, and
it still wound up being especially choppy and weak, IMHO.  The last
time she had difficulty getting a book written was CoS, which is my
least favorite.  So I'm seeing some warning signs.
Does this mean OoP will have two chapters that are choppy and weak?
Maybe JKR should just release the darn thing as in, and we can get
back to her on how it could have been improved.  :-)


I dont think so. In the process of publication it is perfectly normal that
an author edits his/her work before it goes to the press. First, after the
editor has read the MS and suggest or asks for changes. Then again changes
(though minimal) can be made just before the printing.

The fact that she only wants to rewrite two more chapters gives me hope!

Barbara Jebenstreit




From meboriqua at aol.com  Fri Feb  8 14:18:45 2002
From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 14:18:45 -0000
Subject: OOP date - Bloomsbury view
In-Reply-To: <a3rfa8+kodh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a40mo5+hbua@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "davewitley" <dfrankiswork at n...> wrote:
 
> The reason I bother to mention it is that, in the past, the 
> Bloomsbury site has been conspicuously silent about the date of book 
> 5.  Putting it in their FAQs sounds like a slight increase in 
> confidence about the date - can you imagine any *more* frequently 
> asked question?.  As it is, most of us would have understood 
'perfect world' (in the sense they mean) to equate to 8 July 2001.>

Last week I asked my sister's good friend who works for Scholastic and 
she said they haven't heard a thing about when OoP is coming out.

I'm still thinking we won't be reading any new HP until the fall at 
the earliest, as sad as that makes me to think it.

--jenny from ravenclaw, who may not be able to access HPFGU at her 
school anymore because the NYC Board of Ed has a new policy of 
"academic" sites only or they'll cut the school's internet access off 
completely. Hello, Big Brother! *******************************




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Fri Feb  8 14:36:44 2002
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (lupinesque)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 14:36:44 -0000
Subject: Big Brother school board
In-Reply-To: <a40mo5+hbua@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a40nps+bkbd@eGroups.com>

> --jenny from ravenclaw, who may not be able to access HPFGU at her 
> school anymore because the NYC Board of Ed has a new policy of 
> "academic" sites only or they'll cut the school's internet access 
off 
> completely. Hello, Big Brother! *******************************

Way to go, NYC.  How about making teachers use coin-op copiers too?  
And you'd better get rid of paper towels, too.  It's so easy to 
break into the dispensers--those sneaky teachers might walk off with a 
whole pack.

So, what do we need to do to qualify as an academic site?

Amy
who thinks HPfGU is very educational, and not just about treacle tart 
recipes and McGonagall's bra size




From Joanne0012 at aol.com  Fri Feb  8 15:13:13 2002
From: Joanne0012 at aol.com (joanne0012)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 15:13:13 -0000
Subject: Big Brother school board
In-Reply-To: <a40nps+bkbd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a40pu9+a992@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "lupinesque" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> > --jenny from ravenclaw, who may not be able to access HPFGU at her 
> > school anymore because the NYC Board of Ed has a new policy of 
> > "academic" sites only or they'll cut the school's internet access 
> off 
> > completely. Hello, Big Brother! *******************************
> 
> So, what do we need to do to qualify as an academic site?
> 
> Amy
> who thinks HPfGU is very educational, 

No kidding!  That sounds totally unenforceable!  Sounds to me like the type of law 
that's put in place to be enforced selectively, in cases there teachers really do 
abuse their access privileges.




From cindysphynx at home.com  Fri Feb  8 15:48:40 2002
From: cindysphynx at home.com (cindysphynx)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 15:48:40 -0000
Subject: Big Brother school board
In-Reply-To: <a40pu9+a992@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a40s0o+e79g@eGroups.com>

Joanne wrote (about the Big Brother rules re Internet Access):

> No kidding!  That sounds totally unenforceable!  Sounds to me like 
the type of law 
> that's put in place to be enforced selectively, in cases there 
teachers really do 
> abuse their access privileges.

I must have a rather dark view of the world.  I think the new policy 
will be selectively enforced, but not to nab those actually abusing 
their access privileges.  Instead, it will be used to nab those whom 
Big Brother wants to nab for other (legitimate and illegitimate) 
reasons but for whom the personnel file isn't yet fat enough to 
weather a lawsuit.

Cindy (categorically denying that labor lawyers ever think about 
doing dastardly things like that)




From andrew_macian at yahoo.com  Fri Feb  8 16:19:58 2002
From: andrew_macian at yahoo.com (Andrew MacIan)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 08:19:58 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Big Brother school board
In-Reply-To: <a40nps+bkbd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20020208161958.48881.qmail@web9502.mail.yahoo.com>

Greetings from Andrew!

Janis Joplin, call your agent....

--- lupinesque <aiz24 at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > --jenny from ravenclaw, who may not be able to
> access HPFGU at her 
> > school anymore because the NYC Board of Ed has a
> new policy of 
> > "academic" sites only or they'll cut the school's
> internet access 
> off 
> > completely. Hello, Big Brother!
> *******************************
> 
> Way to go, NYC.  How about making teachers use
> coin-op copiers too?  
> And you'd better get rid of paper towels, too.  It's
> so easy to 
> break into the dispensers--those sneaky teachers
> might walk off with a 
> whole pack.
> 
> So, what do we need to do to qualify as an academic
> site?

You might get in touch with Bennet Haselton over at
Peacefire (webmaster at peacefire.org); he's running the
major anti-blocking software campaign and might have
some helpful hints in this regard.  This organization
is student-started and student-run.  The motto over
there is one that I endorse:  "It's not a crime to be
smarter than your parents".  They also have released
an anti-blocking bit of software that might be of
interest as well.

I note with both interest and my usual Snape-like
humor that the blocked site of today is one on _Jane
Eyre_ (http://eserver.org/fiction/jane-eyre.txt).  The
'CYBERsitter' travesty also blocks *all* sites at the
College of Humanities at CMU (http://hss.cmu.edu/).

I don't need to remark on this sort of idiocy being
one of the hallmarks of the current paranoia in the
US, do I?

Cheers,

Drieux



=====
ICQ # 76184391

'Each game of chess means there's one less
      Variation left to be played;
 Each day got through means one or two less
      Mistakes remain to be made.'
      --'Chess' by Sir Tim Rice

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
http://greetings.yahoo.com



From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Fri Feb  8 18:04:03 2002
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 18:04:03 -0000
Subject: Big Brother school board
In-Reply-To: <a40pu9+a992@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a413uj+e1b4@eGroups.com>

Joanne0012 quoted:
> > > --jenny from ravenclaw, who may not be able to access HPFGU at 
her 
> > > school anymore because the NYC Board of Ed has a new policy of 
> > > "academic" sites only or they'll cut the school's internet 
access off completely. 

> No kidding!  That sounds totally unenforceable!  

No, it's very easy to enforce.  One office where I work has software 
which blocks my Netscape mail account and HPFGU (but not hpfgu.org.uk 
or the Lexicon!).  A customer site, so perhaps just as well, really.

It depends, of course, on internet access only being possible via a 
local network - but I think the phones can fairly easily be set up to 
prevent dial-up connection, and phone numbers used can be logged, too.

But, basically, it's enforcement through prevention, not the threat 
of punishment.  All the board has to do is check that the school has 
installed appropriate blocking software.

I do wonder if it's legal, though.  Can the board cut off a school's 
internet access in this way under US (or is it NY?) law?

David




From andrew_macian at yahoo.com  Fri Feb  8 18:51:55 2002
From: andrew_macian at yahoo.com (Andrew MacIan)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 10:51:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Big Brother school board
In-Reply-To: <a413uj+e1b4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20020208185155.98661.qmail@web9506.mail.yahoo.com>

Greetings from Andrew!

--- davewitley <dfrankiswork at netscape.net> wrote:
{snip}

> I do wonder if it's legal, though.  Can the board
> cut off a school's 
> internet access in this way under US (or is it NY?)
> law?

IIRC, Federal law (in the US, of course) *MANDATES*
blocking for sites (libraries and schools) that
receive Federal funding.  Factual correction
appreciated; most of my links to this topic are on my
office system.

Yet *another* reason that the State and Big Brother do
not belong at the reins of the educational system,
beyond setting testing standards.

Cheers,

Drieux

=====
ICQ # 76184391

'Each game of chess means there's one less
      Variation left to be played;
 Each day got through means one or two less
      Mistakes remain to be made.'
      --'Chess' by Sir Tim Rice

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
http://greetings.yahoo.com



From pennylin at swbell.net  Fri Feb  8 18:58:29 2002
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny & Bryce)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 12:58:29 -0600
Subject: My 2-year Anniversary
Message-ID: <3C641FD5.2030108@swbell.net>

Hi everyone --

Just thought I'd note that today marks my 2 year anniversary in the HP 
fandom!  Hard to believe it.  It's been an amazing ride so far, and I've 
made so many wonderful friends.

I've cut & pasted my first post to the HP4GU predecessor group (Yahoo 
Club) from Feb 8th, 2000 -- it's below my signature.  Some things never 
change!  No, it's not about shipping (I didn't even know what shipping 
was & definitely had no real opinions on that yet).  It is about one of 
my current pet subjects though ... kiddie lit or not.  <g>

Thanks for all the fun, everyone!  Here's to another great year in the 
HP fandom (and OOP before too long)--- :::raises glass of foaming 
butterbeer:::

Penny

*********************************
Original Yahoo! HPFG Header:
No: 457
From: plinsenmayer
Subject: Re: more HP backlash
Reply To: [Yahoo! #451] more HP backlash
Date: 2/8/00 8:35 pm (ET)

Hi everyone:

I just joined up and have enjoyed the discussions in the earlier
messages. Mystril -- I read that article by Henser -- the author seems
a very grumpy individual! I never read fantasy fiction as a kid, so
I can't honestly judge the HP books against the books he cites in his
article. Can anyone else comment?

I do think he's wrong on two points. I would heartily disagree that 
adults should not be reading these books (an infantilization of our 
culture I think he said). And, I disagree with his assertion that the HP 
books will not be classics. I think they will stand the test of time 
quite well.

He also made an interesting point about how once the last book is
released, future children readers won't age with Harry and his gang 
(i.e., they'll read them one after another and the 8-yr old reader who 
loves Book 1 will be very confused by the 17 yr-old Harry in Book 7). I 
would point Mr. Henser to the Laura Ingalls Wilder books. There were 7 
of those also, and many people (myself included) consider them to be the 
best American children's lit ever written. I threw the American bit in, 
as I may now believe HP to be the best British children's lit ever 
written. <g>

I'm looking forward to the discussions!

Penny

**************************************




From meboriqua at aol.com  Fri Feb  8 20:51:18 2002
From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 20:51:18 -0000
Subject: Big Brother school board - a little rant
In-Reply-To: <a40nps+bkbd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a41do6+am61@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "lupinesque" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
 
> Way to go, NYC.  How about making teachers use coin-op copiers too?   
And you'd better get rid of paper towels, too.  It's so easy to  break 
into the dispensers--those sneaky teachers might walk off with a whole 
pack.>

*Sigh*  Well, most schools don't let teachers use copy machines 
themselves.  If I need multiple copies, I must request them a day in 
advance.  Guess we're just too darned clumsy and might break one of 
those complicated xerox machines - oopsie!  We're just teachers, after 
all.

Paper towels?!  Like we have them at our disposal every day.  I fairly 
regularly must dry my hands with toilet paper.

Joanne - really, the blocking was set up so kids can't access porn 
sites and other such inappropriate internet possibilities.  However, 
many sites that students might use for research could easily have 
adresses that the Board of Ed would deem as inappropriate anyway.  How 
will we know?

As sad as it is, I shouldn't be surprised.  We teachers are already 
required to film a lesson we teach and send it to Albany to get state 
certification (boy, is it comforting to know that the government will 
have my face on tape - which is why I've been so reluctant to do it.  
They had to threaten to take my licensing away if I don't do this 
soon).  Nor do we have our own phones or extensions, or even a private 
place to make phone calls at all.  I can't call my mom or anyone 
outside of the five boroughs either, as those area codes are blocked 
(what happens if students want to call a college?)

I don't have my own classroom, my desk is broken, all three of my file 
cabinets are broken and one came directly from the garbage.  Of all 
the computers we have, most of them don't work anyway.  We only have 
one VCR because the other one broke and we have no money in our budget 
to fix it, but that's okay because I was told I could no longer show 
movies in their entirety this semester.  We're not allowed to use the 
gym in my school and we are down to six classrooms for 100+ students, 
all of whom came from other schools because they messed up.    

If I told you my salary, you'd seriously wonder why I do this at all, 
but I love my students and that pretty much explains it.  Mostly, 
though, they're the ones who get screwed; I *chose* this profession.

Ah, New York!

--jenny from ravenclaw, who took a personal day today because it's 
been sickeningly stressful and I haven't been sleeping 
**************************************




From virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com  Fri Feb  8 21:19:05 2002
From: virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com (virtualworldofhp)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 21:19:05 -0000
Subject: My 2-year Anniversary
In-Reply-To: <3C641FD5.2030108@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <a41fc9+qltb@eGroups.com>

Penny wrote:
> Hi everyone --
> 
> Just thought I'd note that today marks my 2 year anniversary in the HP 
> fandom!  Hard to believe it.  It's been an amazing ride so far, and
I've 
> made so many wonderful friends.

Congratulations, Penny!

We're always glad to have you aboard, with faithful shipping posts in
tow, :-D.

-Megan




From witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb  8 23:04:46 2002
From: witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com (Wanda Mallett)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 15:04:46 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] My 2-year Anniversary
In-Reply-To: <3C641FD5.2030108@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <20020208230446.96335.qmail@web13702.mail.yahoo.com>



  Penny & Bryce <pennylin at swbell.net> wrote: 
Hi everyone --

Just thought I'd note that today marks my 2 year anniversary in the HP 
fandom! 

Happy Anniversary to Penny! Our list Mom! This has only been my first as of January 15th, but it sure has been very interesting year! Two for you and it is only getting better! I have learned so much from all the Scholars on this list and College Students! You a wonderful Lawyer and writer! Well, you have a great knowledge of the writing arts! You, Penny, have taught me from your posts and insight of the HP world along with so many on this list, a better understanding of so many twists and turns of plot lines and characters and the creatures in these books! We toast you for your hard work and all the wonderful workers under you keeping this list so positive and on tract! I'm looking forward to more great posts from so many! Have a great big Butterbeer toast for more fun and knowledge in the coming months!

Penny, I hope this day was great for you!



---------------------------------
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From voicelady at mymailstation.com  Fri Feb  8 22:43:20 2002
From: voicelady at mymailstation.com (voicelady)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 18:43:20 EDT
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] My 2-year Anniversary
Message-ID: <id.08022002184320.00000@FPE>

Oh my goodness!  Has it really been that long that I've "known" you?  Wait a minute - I *DO* know you!  As a matter of fact, I feel like I know all of you!  Strangely enough, I count you all among my closest friends.

I guess that means I've been around for about 2 years now, too - off and on.  Who was here first, Penny, you or me?  I think we both came in around the same time...

Anyway, just to let you all know, I gave notice at my extremely stressful job today, so I'll be able to be around and post much more often.  Yay for me!

Jeralyn, the Voicelady



From pennylin at swbell.net  Fri Feb  8 23:54:40 2002
From: pennylin at swbell.net (plinsenmayer)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 23:54:40 -0000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] My 2-year Anniversary
In-Reply-To: <id.08022002184320.00000@FPE>
Message-ID: <a41og0+e9ac@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "voicelady" <voicelady at m...> wrote:
Hi --
>
> I guess that means I've been around for about 2 years now, too - off
and on.  Who was here first, Penny, you or me?  I think we both came
in around the same time...

You were here first Jeralyn!  :--)  But, you're right, I think we
joined around the same basic timeframe.  Jen Piersol also predates me,
as do some folks who've gone on to bigger & better things presumably.
 I too have made lots of friends here.  Very cool group, we are.
>
> Anyway, just to let you all know, I gave notice at my extremely
stressful job today, so I'll be able to be around and post much more
often.  Yay for me!

Yay for you, Jeralyn!!

Penny





From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Sat Feb  9 00:14:33 2002
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley)
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 00:14:33 -0000
Subject: My 2-year Anniversary
In-Reply-To: <3C641FD5.2030108@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <a41pl9+bg6q@eGroups.com>

Penny wrote:
> Hi everyone --
> 
> Just thought I'd note that today marks my 2 year anniversary in the 
HP fandom!  Hard to believe it.  It's been an amazing ride so far, 
and I've made so many wonderful friends.

Congratulations, Penny!

Extract from OOP (pub. Feb 2002): "Oh, Harry, darling, what a lovely 
present for my fifteenth birthday" said Hermione.  Percy waved his 
wand at the book pages of the New York Times, and said 'Obscurus'.  
The NYT disappeared in a flash, as with a last despairing whine did 
Ginny, who had been standing in the line of fire.

David




From cindysphynx at home.com  Sat Feb  9 00:16:03 2002
From: cindysphynx at home.com (cindysphynx)
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 00:16:03 -0000
Subject: Busted By Technology!
Message-ID: <a41po3+101nc@eGroups.com>

Oh, Man!  Can today get any worse?  I open the mail and there, lying 
in the pile, mocking me, is a "Notice of Infraction."  What is a 
Notice of Infraction, you ask?  Why, that's what you get when the 
District of Columbia decides that you have been speeding on their 
streets.  

Now, I live in Maryland, I work in Maryland, I shop in Maryland.  Why 
on earth would I be in the District of Columbia on a Thursday morning 
at 10:39 a.m., burning rubber on a street I have never heard of, 
headed toward downtown?  

Oh, but they've got the goods on me, all right.  They have an itty-
bitty grainy photo of the back of my car, all right.  I get to take 
their word for the part about the speeding, and the fact that none of 
the other cars in the picture was the actual culprit.

Ironically, the last time this happened, my husband fought an 
automated ticked for running a red light.  He actually beat the 
ticket because even the judge could not discern from the photo 
whether the light was green or red and concluded that the equipment 
may have been malfunctioning.

What to do, what to do?  Hmmm.  Well, I guess I'd better pay it this 
instant before the fine automatically doubles, although I know full 
well that I wasn't there, that I would never blow down a residential 
street at 38 mph, and that there is no way I could ever prove it.

TickedAtATicket!Cindy (wondering if the judge would accept a time-
stamped post on the main list as proof of her innocence)




From morrigan at byz.org  Sat Feb  9 00:22:33 2002
From: morrigan at byz.org (Morrigan //Vicki//)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 16:22:33 -0800
Subject: Busted By Technology!
In-Reply-To: <a41po3+101nc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <NFBBLPEOCLIKCDBACHIBKEBDCPAA.morrigan@byz.org>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cindysphynx [mailto:cindysphynx at home.com]
>
> Now, I live in Maryland, I work in Maryland, I shop in Maryland.  Why
> on earth would I be in the District of Columbia on a Thursday morning
> at 10:39 a.m., burning rubber on a street I have never heard of,
> headed toward downtown?

Cindy, why would you just pay this if you KNOW it wasn't you??  Unless the
ticket is such a small amount that it wouldn't be worth the effort to go to
court, etc.  Can you prove where you were at the time, i.e. work?  And
considering that the main list is moderated, I'd have to say that no, that
wouldn't work for proof, as your message can be approved at any random
time...nice try, tho. ;)

Vicki, the mostly-lurker chick
~~~
Morrigan's Harry Potter Slash
www.byz.org/~morrigan/hpslash.html






From michelleapostolides at yahoo.co.uk  Sat Feb  9 00:45:24 2002
From: michelleapostolides at yahoo.co.uk (Michelle Apostolides)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 00:45:24 -0000
Subject: You know you're getting old when.....
Message-ID: <001101c1b103$0feea1c0$582b893e@Michelle>

You remember watching Torvill and Dean winning the Gold Medal for Ice Dance 18 years ago. 

You watch a documentary about the Queen's Silver Jubilee 25 years ago and you remember what you did on the day and think back to it fondly. 

You know that staying up till 4.45 am tomorrow morning will leave you dog tired for the next three days !

Michelle


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk  Sat Feb  9 01:20:52 2002
From: kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk (Kathryn)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 01:20:52 -0000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] You know you're getting old when.....
References: <001101c1b103$0feea1c0$582b893e@Michelle>
Message-ID: <000701c1b108$05307100$cb4c86d9@monica>

I remember Bolero but not the Silver Jubilee (I was 1, I have souvenirs though) but I'm not worried about staying up late one night, it's the thought of 2 weeks worth that worries me. I should just recover in time to start getting up at the crack of dawn for the World Cup, not to mention the odd middle of the night Grand Prix ..... I'm coming to the conclusion I watch too much sport. At least the Commonwealth Games are in the same Time Zone as I am this time around.

I recommend the "healthy" combination of Pro Plus, Red Bull and coffee (I'm a student I can live on caffeine, sleep is something to be reserved for the summer holidays)

K
If an advisor says to me "My liege, he is but one man. What can one man possibly do?", I will reply "This." and kill the advisor.
http://minievil.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Michelle Apostolides 
  To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2002 12:45 AM
  Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] You know you're getting old when.....


  You remember watching Torvill and Dean winning the Gold Medal for Ice Dance 18 years ago. 

  You watch a documentary about the Queen's Silver Jubilee 25 years ago and you remember what you did on the day and think back to it fondly. 

  You know that staying up till 4.45 am tomorrow morning will leave you dog tired for the next three days !

  Michelle


  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
              ADVERTISEMENT
             
       
       

  ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________

  Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the group's Admin Files!
  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/

  Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying!

  Is your message...
  An announcement of merchandise, news etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements.
  Movie-related? Send it to HPFGU-Movie.
  Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups.
  None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter.
  Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com

  Unsubscribing? Email HPFGU-OTChatter-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
  ____________________________________________________________


  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com  Sat Feb  9 03:25:50 2002
From: virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com (virtualworldofhp)
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 03:25:50 -0000
Subject: Busted By Technology!
In-Reply-To: <NFBBLPEOCLIKCDBACHIBKEBDCPAA.morrigan@byz.org>
Message-ID: <a424ru+6lkk@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "Morrigan //Vicki//" <morrigan at b...>
Can you prove where you were at the time, i.e. work?  And
> considering that the main list is moderated, I'd have to say that
no, that
> wouldn't work for proof, as your message can be approved at any random
> time...nice try, tho. ;)
> 
> Vicki, the mostly-lurker chick

The newest trend in defense law..."I was posting online at that time!"
Cyber-alibi. :-D

-Megan
(and the main list is only moderated for newer members, so Cindy would
still be okay for this as her alibi, <g>)




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sat Feb  9 04:29:58 2002
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (lupinesque)
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 04:29:58 -0000
Subject: Two birthdays!
Message-ID: <a428k6+dqsf@eGroups.com>

Hey everyone, we have a birthday girl in 31 minutes (Eastern 
Time)--have a magical day, Dianne!  You can e-owl her at 
dianne at surfshop.net.ph

And a little owl told me that yesterday was Gwendolyn Grace's 
birthday, and a big one at that.  E-owl 
lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu, or even better, give her the present 
every author likes best and check out her fics!  
http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Gwendolyn_Grace/

::throws BBEFBs at Dianne and Gwen::

The Birthday Elf




From pennylin at swbell.net  Sat Feb  9 04:56:24 2002
From: pennylin at swbell.net (plinsenmayer)
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 04:56:24 -0000
Subject: My 2-year Anniversary
In-Reply-To: <a41pl9+bg6q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a42a5o+bl0h@eGroups.com>

Hi --

-- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "davewitley" <dfrankiswork at n...> wrote:
>
> Extract from OOP (pub. Feb 2002): "Oh, Harry, darling, what a lovely
> present for my fifteenth birthday" said Hermione.  Percy waved his
> wand at the book pages of the New York Times, and said 'Obscurus'.
> The NYT disappeared in a flash, as with a last despairing whine did
> Ginny, who had been standing in the line of fire.

>From your keyboard to Jo's pen ...

Seriously, I just *love* it!  Thanks, Dave!  :::schnoogles:::

Penny




From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Feb  9 05:03:58 2002
From: catlady at wicca.net (catlady_de_los_angeles)
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 05:03:58 -0000
Subject: Beau Jour de Fete!
Message-ID: <a42aju+eg8i@eGroups.com>

Happy Birthday, Dianne -- I am wishing to you at the right time!

Belated Happy Birthday to Gwendolyn/Lee. I already slathered praise 
on your fic.

Anniversary Congratulations, Penny, how can it have been only two 
years, when so much has happened since then? 

Here's a pre-order thing for the DVD: 
http://www.costco.com/landing.asp?landSrc=email&campaign=11




From witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com  Sat Feb  9 05:18:01 2002
From: witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com (Wanda Mallett)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 21:18:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Two birthdays! Dianne&Gwendolyn
In-Reply-To: <a428k6+dqsf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20020209051801.49940.qmail@web13709.mail.yahoo.com>


 
  lupinesque <aiz24 at hotmail.com> wrote: 
Hey everyone, we have a birthday girl in 31 minutes (Eastern 
Time)--have a magical day, Dianne
And a little owl told me that yesterday was Gwendolyn Grace's 
birthday, and a big one at that.  !  

The Birthday Elf



Thank you Birthday elf! Happy Birthday to Dianne and Gwendoly! we toast to you two with big goblets of Butterbeer and hope all your Birthday wishes come true! hope you both have loads of fun and a great big HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU, BOTH OF YOU!

Schnoogles,

Wanda the Witch of Revere, Massachusetts and Her Very Merry Band of Muggles 100%



---------------------------------
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk  Sat Feb  9 05:30:48 2002
From: kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk (Kathryn)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 05:30:48 -0000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Two birthdays! Dianne&Gwendolyn
References: <20020209051801.49940.qmail@web13709.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <002a01c1b12a$ef436a00$e61d86d9@monica>

Happy Birthday guys.

K
If an advisor says to me "My liege, he is but one man. What can one man possibly do?", I will reply "This." and kill the advisor.
http://minievil.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From tabouli at unite.com.au  Sat Feb  9 15:15:31 2002
From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 02:15:31 +1100
Subject: Suzie Wong/Many Splendours: Chinese culture in 1950s Hollywood
Message-ID: <006d01c1b17c$cdeff240$0635c2cb@price>

Since my happy purchase of a video recorder at last as my leaving work present to myself, I have been doing some serious movie watching.  Of late I've been blurring the line between work and play by taking a look at 1950s-1960s Hollywood takes on Hong Kong (hmmm, tax deduction?).   Most interesting.

Has anyone seen or read either "The World of Suzie Wong" or "(Love is) A Many Splendoured Thing"?

I read both of the books a few years ago, the first out of a lingering curiosity as to why my mother said in prim tones to my father  "Chee, how come you buy this terrible book?" (ooo!  said Tabouli, seizing it the moment her mother's back was turned) and the second in a sudden mid to late teen enthusiasm for Forging My Eurasian Identity (Han Suyin, the author of "A Many Splendoured Thing" was also half-Chinese, half-European... Dutch, I think).

Now, I'm aware that poor ol' Suzie cops a *lot* of flak.  She has been accused many times of presenting Asian women as demure, exotic, available sex objects and thereby corrupting their image irretrievably in the minds of Europeans.  Which made it all the more intriguing when I read the book and mused that it was incredibly ahead of its time in the cultural awareness stakes.  I was in fact impressed at the ability of Richard Mason (the author) to both capture Chinese attitudes and idiom and portray his cast of Hong Kong prostitutes with such respect and understanding.  In fact, if he was racist towards anyone, it wasn't the Chinese, it was the snooty colonial English.  As for the critics crying foul over its portrayal of Asian women, um, did they consider the fact that it *is* actually set in a brothel, and, um, all the Asian women in the book are in fact prostitutes whose very *job* is to sell themselves through sex appeal?  And that Suzie, an illiterate, 23yo Chinese prostitute, is in fact very independent and feisty indeed, putting your average white female character of the era to shame?

(The film, of course, restored a lot of comfortable colonialism and black and whiteness to the plot).

"A Many Splendoured Thing" I read a long time ago and can't remember all that well, except for the ending, which was in the very best traditions of tragic romance (and true, moreover).  However, having just seen the film, I found myself cringeing.

Both "Suzie" and "Splendour" changed the male lead from English to American and cast William Holden, whose acting should be sent straight to a furniture shop, or, preferably, a sawmill, in my opinion.  (What *was* the big deal with that guy in the 50s?  Rugged all-American looks are no substitute for the ability to act!)  The book of "Splendour" was touching, the film...!  I've seen more chemistry in a drive through McDonalds!

Also, I allowed myself some Genuine Eurasian sniffing at Jennifer Jones' attempts to look Eurasian by dyeing her wavy hair an unlikely blue-black, wearing a cheongsam and squinting.  Hers are European features if ever I've seen 'em.  Though of course, it must be said that when I went to China I found it very hard to convince anyone of my Chinese blood, and I'm the real thing.  Hmm.  Well, (she says huffily), at least I have straight, genuinely dark hair (very few Eurasians have blue-black hair - their hair is typically straight and very dark brown with a slight reddish tinge, like mine) and a light olive complexion, and there *are* some angles where you can see the Chinese in my eyes.

There were a few references to Eurasians in "Suzie", which made me heartily glad I was born in the 70s rather than the 40s.  Mason waxes sorrowful on the tragic plight of the Eurasian, who belongs nowhere and has no place in life except to hover hopefully on the fringes of a white society who snub them, longing for entry.  Though again, I suspect branding this "racism" is a bit silly - it strikes me as "highly accurate in its time", which is a different thing.  Han Suyin, of course, at least had the luxury of waving her own Eurasian pride banner!

The proudly Eurasian Tabouli (taking off her glasses and squinting at the screen)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sat Feb  9 21:38:41 2002
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (lupinesque)
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 21:38:41 -0000
Subject: Busted By Technology!
In-Reply-To: <a41po3+101nc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a444t1+s66s@eGroups.com>

> TickedAtATicket!Cindy (wondering if the judge would accept a time-
> stamped post on the main list as proof of her innocence)

Try it!  Although they might just decide you were not only doing 38 
on a residential street, but e-mailing on your Blackberry at the same 
time.  Hmm.

Amy
who's now infested with plot bunnies for a mystery where the alibis 
depend on listserve time stamps . . . modern version of those 
g'dawful railway timetable mysteries




From malaprop2000 at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 10 05:23:35 2002
From: malaprop2000 at yahoo.com (malaprop2000)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 05:23:35 -0000
Subject: Need help with Australian constellations
Message-ID: <a4504n+1pb5@eGroups.com>

Hope someone here lives in Australia - or New Zealand.

Am writing a fanfic and need to now if there are any particularly 
bright constellations (it's October in Potter time)  that Harry might 
be able to see and remember (it's a dream sequence).

I have a star guide and I really love the idea of Harry seeing the 
Phoenix but I want to make sure that he could see it.  The Southern 
Cross looks like it would be an excellent choice - four bright stars 
in the shape of a cross -  but I don't know if it can actually be seen 
from the Southern Hemisphere.

Our boy is about 100 miles north of Alice Springs.

Yes, I know the likelyhood of an Australian or New Zealander surfing 
the net and finding this fic is nil but I'd like to get it right if 
possible.

You can e-mail me off list at malaprop2000 at yahoo.com.  Or just post 
here.  Thanks for any help you can give me.




From mjollner at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 10 20:19:52 2002
From: mjollner at yahoo.com (mjollner)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 20:19:52 -0000
Subject: Busted By Technology!
In-Reply-To: <a41po3+101nc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a46kl8+fe2c@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "cindysphynx" <cindysphynx at h...> wrote:
> Oh, Man!  Can today get any worse?  I open the mail and there, lying 
> in the pile, mocking me, is a "Notice of Infraction."  What is a 
> Notice of Infraction, you ask?  Why, that's what you get when the 
> District of Columbia decides that you have been speeding on their 
> streets.  
> 
> Now, I live in Maryland, I work in Maryland, I shop in Maryland.  
Why 
> on earth would I be in the District of Columbia on a Thursday 
morning 
> at 10:39 a.m., burning rubber on a street I have never heard of, 
> headed toward downtown?  
> 
> Oh, but they've got the goods on me, all right.  They have an itty-
> bitty grainy photo of the back of my car, all right.  I get to take 
> their word for the part about the speeding, and the fact that none 
of 
> the other cars in the picture was the actual culprit.


Oh, my sympathies!  I lived on Capitol Hill for several years and now 
reside in lovely, congested NoVa, though I commute daily to the 
District.  You're not the only person this false ticketing has 
happened to; the Post has had several articles in the Metro section 
about this problem and its many innocent victims.  

Fight the ticket!  Is the license number clearly visible in the photo? 
 If there's any doubt, you have a good chance of having it dismissed. 
 Don't let the home of "Taxation without Representation" get you down!

Mjollner




From blpurdom at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 10 20:20:10 2002
From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 20:20:10 -0000
Subject: Need help with Australian constellations
In-Reply-To: <a4504n+1pb5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a46klq+c91b@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "malaprop2000" <malaprop2000 at y...> 
wrote:
> I have a star guide and I really love the idea of Harry seeing the 
> Phoenix but I want to make sure that he could see it.  The 
> Southern Cross looks like it would be an excellent choice - four 
> bright stars in the shape of a cross -  but I don't know if it can 
> actually be seen from the Southern Hemisphere.
> 
> Our boy is about 100 miles north of Alice Springs.
> 
> Yes, I know the likelyhood of an Australian or New Zealander 
> surfing the net and finding this fic is nil but I'd like to get it 
> right if possible.

Not so!  People read HP fanfic from all over.  I received many nice 
emails and reviews from folks in Australia and New Zealand who 
appreciated my mentioning Gallipoli and the Anzacs in Psychic 
Serpent.  The internet has made the world MUCH smaller.  I love the 
idea of Harry being Down Under!

--Barb

Chapter 16 of the Last Temptation of Harry Potter is up!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Psych
http://schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb




From catlady at wicca.net  Mon Feb 11 00:21:23 2002
From: catlady at wicca.net (catlady_de_los_angeles)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 00:21:23 -0000
Subject: Need help with Australian constellations
In-Reply-To: <a46klq+c91b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a472q3+aa1l@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "blpurdom" <blpurdom at y...> wrote:

> Not so!  People read HP fanfic from all over.  I received many nice 
> emails and reviews from folks in Australia and New Zealand who 
> appreciated my mentioning Gallipoli and the Anzacs in Psychic 
> Serpent.  The internet has made the world MUCH smaller.  I love the 
> idea of Harry being Down Under!

I'm surprised that none of the Down-Under people on this List 
have popped up with answers. I know there are more who speak 
out than just Tabouli and Storm.




From pkerr06 at attglobal.net  Mon Feb 11 03:16:00 2002
From: pkerr06 at attglobal.net (bluesox4113)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 03:16:00 -0000
Subject: My 2-year Anniversary
In-Reply-To: <3C641FD5.2030108@swbell.net>
Message-ID: <a47d1g+p8l9@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., Penny & Bryce <pennylin at s...> wrote:
> Hi everyone --
> 
> Just thought I'd note that today marks my 2 year anniversary in the HP 
> fandom!  

Congratulations, listmom.  A box of sugar quills are on their way to
you via owl post.

Cheers,
Peg




From cindysphynx at home.com  Mon Feb 11 04:37:51 2002
From: cindysphynx at home.com (cindysphynx)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 04:37:51 -0000
Subject: Busted By Technology!
In-Reply-To: <a46kl8+fe2c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a47hqv+jum3@eGroups.com>

Mjollner wrote:

>You're not the only person this false ticketing has 
> happened to; the Post has had several articles in the Metro section 
> about this problem and its many innocent victims.  
> 
> Fight the ticket!  

Nah, I'm going to surrender and meekly pay the ticket.  

How could I possibly justify the time, effort and aggravation to go 
contest a $50 ticket?  I'd probably get a parking ticket while I was 
down there in court.  

No, I'll simply re-double my efforts not to *ever* visit the 
District.  It's the only defense I have.

Cindy (bummed that this ticket ends a 25-year streak of no moving 
violations and no accidents)




From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Mon Feb 11 10:07:43 2002
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 10:07:43 -0000
Subject: Need help with Australian constellations
In-Reply-To: <a4504n+1pb5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a4855f+th7v@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "malaprop2000" <malaprop2000 at y...> wrote:
> Hope someone here lives in Australia - or New Zealand.
> 
> Am writing a fanfic and need to now if there are any particularly 
> bright constellations (it's October in Potter time)  that Harry 
might be able to see and remember (it's a dream sequence).
> 
> I have a star guide and I really love the idea of Harry seeing the 
> Phoenix but I want to make sure that he could see it.  The Southern 
> Cross looks like it would be an excellent choice - four bright 
stars 
> in the shape of a cross -  but I don't know if it can actually be 
seen 
> from the Southern Hemisphere.
> 
> Our boy is about 100 miles north of Alice Springs.

I'm guessing latitude about 15 - 20S.

I would need to check my maps at home but I believe that in October 
the Phoenix would indeed be visible very high up in the south.  Later 
on it would be lower in the west.  The Southern Cross *might* just be 
up in the early evening and just before dawn, but I think it would be 
below the horizon for the middle part of the night, .

However, the Phoenix isn't particularly bright - it has one 2nd 
magnitude star.  Also, Harry will only know it's a phoenix if he 
already knows his constellations (those damned elusive Astronomy 
lessons with Sinistra - but, remember, Phoenix is *not* visible 
without magic from Hogwarts as it's too far south in the sky) - 
constellations are notorious for not looking like the thing they 
represent: stars are just bright dots in the sky.  Bright 
constellations that would be visible in the evening include Scorpius, 
Sagittarius, Aquila (eagle), and Grus (crane, i.e. the bird).  
Slightly less bright but of possible interest would be Lupus (wolf).  
Achernar (in Eridanus the river and Fomalhaut (in Piscis Austrinus 
the southern fish) are rather isolated bright stars.  Later you will 
have Carina (the keel, brightest part of the ship Argo), Orion, 
Taurus and Canis Major (which includes Sirius).  I think Sirius would 
be almost overhead at about 4-5am solar time.

David




From tabouli at unite.com.au  Mon Feb 11 12:44:28 2002
From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 23:44:28 +1100
Subject: Australian Astronomy
Message-ID: <002201c1b2f9$f0f874a0$5e25ddcb@price>

Rita:
> I'm surprised that none of the Down-Under people on this List 
have popped up with answers. I know there are more who speak 
out than just Tabouli and Storm.<

Hang on, hang on, here I come, trailing stars behind me...

malaprop2000:
>I have a star guide and I really love the idea of Harry seeing the 
Phoenix but I want to make sure that he could see it.  The Southern 
Cross looks like it would be an excellent choice - four bright stars 
in the shape of a cross -  but I don't know if it can actually be seen 
from the Southern Hemisphere.<

Can the Southern Cross be seen from the Southern Hemisphere?? (isn't the answer in the question?)  Yes, yes and absolutely!  Take a look at the Australian and New Zealand flags some time... both feature the Southern Cross, because this constellation is one of the most prominent features of the Southern Hemisphere night sky.  Obviously all constellations shift with the seasons and rise and set, but I guarantee that the Southern Cross is visible in the night sky from most of Australia most of the time.  This and Orion's belt are the two constellations most school children are taught to find in primary school down here (the pointer stars Alpha and Beta Centauri point to the Southern Cross was the slogan).  Australia has even been known to *call* itself the "Land of the Southern Cross" in TV advertisement jingles and the like...

For concrete evidence of exactly when the cross is visible and whether the Phoenix is visible, etc.etc. I'd need to consult an astronomy textbook (with charts like "the Southern sky in winter/summer" and so on) or get someone crafty and mathematical like David to calculate it.  You might even be able to find celestial globes somewhere.

One more thing: the Southern Cross actually has five stars... the four brightest form the cross, and there's a fifth, dimmer one inset a little at about 4 o' clock.


malaprop2000:
> Yes, I know the likelyhood of an Australian or New Zealander surfing 
the net and finding this fic is nil but I'd like to get it right if possible.<

Wot, wot, wot?  Nil?  I don't know the population of New Zealand (4 million?), but there are 20 million people in Australia, and I assure you that a lot of them are Harry Potter fans!  The oceans of HP books and merchandise populating everything from department stores to petrol stations and newsagencies (when HP books are the only novels available from your little local newsagency, you know JKR has arrived) are proof of that.  Fear not, some Antipodeans will find your fic.  Moreover, most of them will know the Southern Cross is usually visible but very very few would know enough about astronomy to know whether the Southern Cross would be visible at the time required by your story, so I wouldn't worry too much...

(Tabouli chuckles mildly to herself, wondering if malaprop's musings are further evidence of Australia just not featuring on the US (?) radar much.  We do feature on the British radar, by virtue of having a lot of ties and relatives and immigration between the two countries, but as rumour has it, Australia is the last word in remote and obscure destinations in much of the rest of the world...)

Tabouli (in her remote Australian outpost)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk  Mon Feb 11 16:15:28 2002
From: kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk (Kathryn)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 16:15:28 -0000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Need help with Australian constellations
References: <a4855f+th7v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000901c1b317$53d3e560$9d3f86d9@monica>

Lupus *and* Sirius, oh hell I surely can't pass that up, it's begging for some kind of a fic :)

K
If an advisor says to me "My liege, he is but one man. What can one man possibly do?", I will reply "This." and kill the advisor.
http://minievil.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: davewitley 
  To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, February 11, 2002 10:07 AM
  Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Need help with Australian constellations
  Bright 
  constellations that would be visible in the evening include Scorpius, 
  Sagittarius, Aquila (eagle), and Grus (crane, i.e. the bird).  
  Slightly less bright but of possible interest would be Lupus (wolf).  
  Achernar (in Eridanus the river and Fomalhaut (in Piscis Austrinus 
  the southern fish) are rather isolated bright stars.  Later you will 
  have Carina (the keel, brightest part of the ship Argo), Orion, 
  Taurus and Canis Major (which includes Sirius).  I think Sirius would 
  be almost overhead at about 4-5am solar time.

  David


        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
              ADVERTISEMENT
             
       
       

  ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________

  Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the group's Admin Files!
  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/

  Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying!

  Is your message...
  An announcement of merchandise, news etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements.
  Movie-related? Send it to HPFGU-Movie.
  Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups.
  None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter.
  Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com

  Unsubscribing? Email HPFGU-OTChatter-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
  ____________________________________________________________


  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From bray.262 at osu.edu  Mon Feb 11 11:42:26 2002
From: bray.262 at osu.edu (Rachel Bray)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 11:42:26 EST5EDT
Subject: I think I'm in love....  :-)
Message-ID: <765BE41EA9@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>

I was "introduced" to Josh Groban this weekend.  WOW!!!!  

If you're not familiar with him he's a singer.  BEAUTIFUL 
voice.  Young guy, too.  He's 20 (I believe) and he's going 
to sing in the closing ceremonies of the Olympics with 
Charlotte Church.

Do yourself a favor (if you like a "Classical" voice) and 
go to:

www.joshgroban.com

and listen to.....um......You're Still You is awesome.  So 
is Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring.  But the whole CD is 
wonderful.

I'm thinking about quitting my job and stalking him 
professionally.  Ha ha.

Rachel Bray
The Ohio State University
Fees, Deposits and Disbursements

Inigo: That Vizzini, he can *fuss*.
Fezzik: Fuss, fuss... I think he like to scream at *us*.
Inigo: Probably he means no *harm*.
Fezzik: He's really very short on *charm*.
Inigo: You have a great gift for rhyme.
Fezzik: Yes, yes, some of the time.
Vizzini: Enough of that!
Inigo: Fezzik, are there rocks ahead?
Fezzik: If there are, we all be dead!
Vizzini: No more rhymes now, I mean it!
Fezzik: Anybody want a peanut?
Vizzini: AAHHHHHH!!
          - The Princess Bride



From kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk  Mon Feb 11 19:34:52 2002
From: kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 19:34:52 -0000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] I think I'm in love....  :-)
References: <765BE41EA9@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>
Message-ID: <004d01c1b334$870f9060$ef4786d9@monica>

sort of on that topic .... who was the guy who sang at the opening ceremony?

K
If an advisor says to me "My liege, he is but one man. What can one man possibly do?", I will reply "This." and kill the advisor.
http://minievil.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Rachel Bray 
  To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, February 11, 2002 11:42 AM
  Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] I think I'm in love.... :-)


  I was "introduced" to Josh Groban this weekend.  WOW!!!!  

  If you're not familiar with him he's a singer.  BEAUTIFUL 
  voice.  Young guy, too.  He's 20 (I believe) and he's going 
  to sing in the closing ceremonies of the Olympics with 
  Charlotte Church.

  Do yourself a favor (if you like a "Classical" voice) and 
  go to:

  www.joshgroban.com

  and listen to.....um......You're Still You is awesome.  So 
  is Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring.  But the whole CD is 
  wonderful.

  I'm thinking about quitting my job and stalking him 
  professionally.  Ha ha.

  Rachel Bray
  The Ohio State University
  Fees, Deposits and Disbursements

  Inigo: That Vizzini, he can *fuss*.
  Fezzik: Fuss, fuss... I think he like to scream at *us*.
  Inigo: Probably he means no *harm*.
  Fezzik: He's really very short on *charm*.
  Inigo: You have a great gift for rhyme.
  Fezzik: Yes, yes, some of the time.
  Vizzini: Enough of that!
  Inigo: Fezzik, are there rocks ahead?
  Fezzik: If there are, we all be dead!
  Vizzini: No more rhymes now, I mean it!
  Fezzik: Anybody want a peanut?
  Vizzini: AAHHHHHH!!
            - The Princess Bride

        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
              ADVERTISEMENT
             
       
       

  ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________

  Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the group's Admin Files!
  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/

  Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying!

  Is your message...
  An announcement of merchandise, news etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements.
  Movie-related? Send it to HPFGU-Movie.
  Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups.
  None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter.
  Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com

  Unsubscribing? Email HPFGU-OTChatter-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
  ____________________________________________________________


  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From miss_megan at dingoblue.net.au  Tue Feb 12 01:28:30 2002
From: miss_megan at dingoblue.net.au (snuffles_macgoo)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 01:28:30 -0000
Subject: Australian Astronomy
In-Reply-To: <002201c1b2f9$f0f874a0$5e25ddcb@price>
Message-ID: <a49r3u+40nf@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "Tabouli" <tabouli at u...> wrote: Fear 
not, some Antipodeans will find your fic.  Moreover, most of them 
will know the Southern Cross is usually visible but very very few 
would know enough about astronomy to know whether the Southern Cross 
would be visible at the time required by your story, so I wouldn't 
worry too much...
> 

and storm chimed in ... the southern cross is ALWAYS visible in Au, 
or at least, she says, qualifing that sweeping statement, whenever I 
look at the sky, what ever time of night, where ever I have been in 
Au (including Alice) I have been able to find the southern cross.

I know this because it is the only conselation I can id so I do at 
every op. <g>. 

did you know you can use the southern cross to find south? (I don't 
know if this is useful in the story) The short version is you extend 
the longest axis 4.5 times down to the earth and drop down to the 
horizen: there's south. for a more comphensive explaintion try 
http://www.southernskies.com.au/crux.htm

plus more info about the southern cross (or crux)(like how to tell 
the time using it). the pic on this site shows the pointers (incl 
Alpha centori) on the left with the cross standing upright on the 
right.

storm, who still can't spell and hasn't read from the main list for 
ages but is facinated by suggestions that Minerva's bra size is being 
discussed! 

PS Happy 2nd aniversery Penny - has it only been two years? I thought 
you have been here for EVER!




From ChrisHolloway999 at aol.com  Tue Feb 12 13:51:54 2002
From: ChrisHolloway999 at aol.com (lou_selastic)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 13:51:54 -0000
Subject: Facing The Challenge Web Site
Message-ID: <a4b6lq+js3p@eGroups.com>

I have only just joined this group and have no intention of 
mentioning or discussing the book by Richard Abane. But for Christian 
parents who are interested in the debate about whether the HP books 
could lead to kids developing an interest in the occult there is a 
very good article at  www.facingthechallenge.org/potter.htm.

In my opinion, Christian parents seem to fall into two broad camps: 
those who can't see any harm in Harry Potter and who are probably 
taking their own kids to see it, and those who believe it encourages 
an interest in the occult and should be avoided as evil.

I think the article at  www.facingthechallenge.org/potter.htm gives a 
balanced and objective analysis of Harry Potter and aims to help 
towards a more reasoned and thought-through response to the Harry 
Potter film and books, rather than just a knee-jerk reaction by those 
opposed to anything that might even allude to anything to do with the 
occult.

I think the article is an excellent discourse and provides help for 
Christian parents who are not really sure what to make of Harry 
Potter. Non-Christians would find it a good read too.

Lou_Selastic.




From bray.262 at osu.edu  Tue Feb 12 09:49:10 2002
From: bray.262 at osu.edu (Rachel Bray)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 09:49:10 EST5EDT
Subject: going to go pout now....
Message-ID: <8C79CF276A@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>

Even though I'm THRILLED Moulin (and LOTR) got nominated 
for Best Picture....I'm bummed that Ewan didn't get 
nominated and Baz didn't get a Best Director nod.  Oh well.

Does anyone on the list own a Bichon Frise?  I've been 
wanting to get one now for more than a year and am curious 
about people's experiences with them.  E-mail me privately 
if you have any insight on these adorable dogs.

Thanks!



Rachel Bray
The Ohio State University
Fees, Deposits and Disbursements

Inigo: That Vizzini, he can *fuss*.
Fezzik: Fuss, fuss... I think he like to scream at *us*.
Inigo: Probably he means no *harm*.
Fezzik: He's really very short on *charm*.
Inigo: You have a great gift for rhyme.
Fezzik: Yes, yes, some of the time.
Vizzini: Enough of that!
Inigo: Fezzik, are there rocks ahead?
Fezzik: If there are, we all be dead!
Vizzini: No more rhymes now, I mean it!
Fezzik: Anybody want a peanut?
Vizzini: AAHHHHHH!!
          - The Princess Bride



From john at walton.vu  Tue Feb 12 15:22:07 2002
From: john at walton.vu (John Walton)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 15:22:07 +0000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Facing The Challenge Web Site
In-Reply-To: <a4b6lq+js3p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <B88EE39F.9CA5%john@walton.vu>

lou_selastic wrote:

> I have only just joined this group and have no intention of mentioning or
> discussing the book by Richard Abane.

Thank [insert deity(ies)] for that.

> But for Christian parents who are interested in the debate about whether the
> HP books could lead to kids developing an interest in the occult there is a
> very good article at  www.facingthechallenge.org/potter.htm.

Hmm. 

> In my opinion, Christian parents seem to fall into two broad camps:
> those who can't see any harm in Harry Potter and who are probably
> taking their own kids to see it, and those who believe it encourages
> an interest in the occult and should be avoided as evil.

An excellent paraphrase from the site.

> I think the article at  www.facingthechallenge.org/potter.htm gives a
> balanced and objective analysis of Harry Potter and aims to help
> towards a more reasoned and thought-through response to the Harry
> Potter film and books, rather than just a knee-jerk reaction by those
> opposed to anything that might even allude to anything to do with the
> occult.

Except for the fact that it calls "anything to do with the occult"
dangerous. I find that offensive:

"some Harry Potter web sites contain links to genuine witchcraft and occult
sites, so we still need to exercise caution."

"We may just take it for granted that our kids are not in danger of being
attracted to occult experimentation by films and books like these - but this
isn't so"

"experimentation with the occult opens the door to a harmful world"

"Is the magic in Harry Potter's world likely to lead our children to
curiosity about the occult, or to dangerous experimentation?"

In answer -- No, it's not. What *will* drive Christian children to curiosity
about other religions is the intolerant attitude shown by many Christians
(this site included) towards other religions, gay people, and Harry Potter.

> I think the article is an excellent discourse

I disagree.

> and provides help for Christian parents who are not really sure what to make
> of Harry Potter. 

Who, of course, are going to be in *such* short supply in a community named
"Harry Potter for Grownups".

> Non-Christians would find it a good read too.

Really? As a non-Christian, I disagree. Much of what it uses for motivation
is based *only* and *solely* on the Bible. One example:

"The Bible is clear that experimentation with the occult opens the door to a
harmful world, and that as Christians we are to avoid it."

I won't go into the argument I've seen, from Christians and non-Christians,
about the varying translations of the word "witch" and "sorcerer" from the
original languages, through between six (OT) and two (NT) millennia of
translation with probably political and inter-denominational and sectarian
bias. 

Nor even whether one should allow two lines in the entire Bible (which is a
book with many inherent contradictions) to create an antipathy towards
multiple belief systems (Hinduism ["idolaters"], Paganism, neoPaganism,
Wicca and Witchcraft ["sorcerers"]), not to mention a series of *fictional
books*.

In conclusion, in my opinion, while Facing the Challenge is less rabidly
moralistic and polemical than Focus on the Family, FFLibraries, or even our
old pal Richard Abanes (*waves at the Christian Polemics experts on-list*),
it's still extremely limited in its knowledge and perception of
non-Christians, and its moralism is only slightly veiled.

Perhaps it should be called "Facing the Challenged" instead.

--John

____________________________________________

Ai! Lantar i Mindonu ilcalar, || Alas! The gleaming Twin Towers are falling,
     Helwa Menello, uryala || Out of the pale blue sky, blazing
     Mir mallennar analye. || Into the richest streets
  --from Quenya poem, Minqu?a Yavanni?, "September Eleventh", by Kai MacTane

John Walton || john at walton.vu
____________________________________________




From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 12 17:21:38 2002
From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 17:21:38 -0000
Subject: Facing The Challenge Web Site
In-Reply-To: <B88EE39F.9CA5%john@walton.vu>
Message-ID: <a4biv3+lf6k@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., John Walton <john at w...> wrote:
> lou_selastic wrote:

> > I think the article at  www.facingthechallenge.org/potter.htm 
gives a
> > balanced and objective analysis of Harry Potter and aims to help
> > towards a more reasoned and thought-through response to the Harry
> > Potter film and books, rather than just a knee-jerk reaction by 
those
> > opposed to anything that might even allude to anything to do with 
the
> > occult.
> 
> Except for the fact that it calls "anything to do with the occult"
> dangerous. I find that offensive:
> In answer -- No, it's not. What *will* drive Christian children to 
curiosity
> about other religions is the intolerant attitude shown by many 
Christians
> (this site included) towards other religions, gay people, and Harry 
Potter.

Why is it intolerant if a Christian believes that "anything to do 
with the occult" is dangerous?  The Bible is quite clear on that. 

Why is it that if one is not willing to accept certain lifestyles, 
Harry Potter, or the occult, then they are intolerant.  However if 
one continually gives misinformation about Christianity, calls anyone 
and everyone a homophobe and can't understand why some people just 
don't like Harry Potter, then why is that person considered tolerant? 
Sounds pretty intolerant to me.

Many religions offer so called *guilt-free, do whatever you want, you 
don't have to answer to anyone, just do it, you are your own god* 
type stuff and that can be attractive to many children and adults.

It is not intolerant to raise a child on what God has to say.   

Not every person who calls themselves a Christian *is* one.  You 
could have a discussion on exactly what a Christian is and get many 
different responses.  For that reason I really don't like to lump 
anything and everything under Christianity.
   
> Really? As a non-Christian, I disagree. Much of what it uses for 
>motivation
> is based *only* and *solely* on the Bible.

So?  If one believes the Bible to be the inspired Word of God with no 
errors than why should it not be what they base their opinion on or 
live by? Just because the Bible might contain things that you find 
offensive doesn't mean it's wrong.  
  
>One example:
> 
> "The Bible is clear that experimentation with the occult opens the 
door to a
> harmful world, and that as Christians we are to avoid it."
> 
> I won't go into the argument I've seen, from Christians and non-
Christians,
> about the varying translations of the word "witch" and "sorcerer" 
from the
> original languages, through between six (OT) and two (NT) millennia 
of
> translation with probably political and inter-denominational and 
sectarian
> bias. 

I have no problem believing that the Perfect Creator of All would 
have any problem seeing to it that His Word was passed down without 
error.

 
> Nor even whether one should allow two lines in the entire Bible 
(which is a
> book with many inherent contradictions)

Not really.


>to create an antipathy towards
> multiple belief systems (Hinduism ["idolaters"], Paganism, 
>neoPaganism,
> Wicca and Witchcraft ["sorcerers"]), not to mention a series of 
*fictional
> books*.

Why should one be expected to accept what one considers to be wrong? 
A person should be free to worship what they wish but that doesn't 
mean they have to accept the other belief system as being right. If I 
believe there to be only one God then why am I not allowed to believe 
that?  If someone believes there is a goddess than I respect the 
right of that person to believe that way but I'm not going to live by 
what that person believes in.   

> 
> In conclusion, in my opinion, while Facing the Challenge is less 
rabidly
> moralistic and polemical than Focus on the Family,

I have no problem with Focus on the Family.  What is wrong with 
someone or some group having a high set of morals and living their 
lives based on the Bible? A group like this isn't going to change 
their beliefs for what the world believes in.  Nor should they.   
Just how much lower are we suppose to drop our morals in order to be 
considered "tolerant"?  Where does one draw the line?  Some are going 
to draw the line with what the Bible says and some are going to make 
up their own rules.

>or even our
> old pal Richard Abanes (*waves at the Christian Polemics experts on-
list*),

I still say Richard Abanes got a bum deal.  Part of the problem here 
is that Abanes is well versed on certain matters and goodness knows 
that's not a good thing for the opposing side. 


> it's still extremely limited in its knowledge and perception of
> non-Christians, and its moralism is only slightly veiled.

Quite the contrary.  Those who warn others of the occult and other 
non-Christian religions have a very good knowledge and perception of 
what these religions are.  As for morality....we all follow a set of 
morality.  It just varies as to what that is. Some people are very 
liberal, rabid, and unmoralistic. That is their choice.  That is 
their morality.

As far as HP is concerned, as a Christian I do love the books but I 
also have no problem if some parents don't want their child to read 
these books.

Koinonia

 





From pennylin at swbell.net  Tue Feb 12 18:25:47 2002
From: pennylin at swbell.net (plinsenmayer)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 18:25:47 -0000
Subject: ADMIN: Facing the Challenge Website
Message-ID: <a4bmnb+mkid@eGroups.com>

Hi --

It appears to me that this discussion should be approached with utmost
caution, if not outright stopped.  Please observe all HP4GU rules with
regard to respecting the opinions of others & courtesy in posting on
this topic.  If things continue to slide in the current trend, we will
have no choice but to halt the discussion.

As you know, on the main list, discussion of religion is limited to
theories regarding religion (or absence thereof) in the wizarding
world.  Obviously OT-Chatter is meant to be less stringent, but please
use respect & common sense.

Also a reminder: Abanes is off-limits on all HP4GU lists.

Penny
Magical Moderator Team




From Indyfans at aol.com  Tue Feb 12 18:48:40 2002
From: Indyfans at aol.com (Indyfans at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 13:48:40 EST
Subject: Note to John-Facing The Challenge Web Site
Message-ID: <14f.8c9ade1.299abd88@aol.com>

Hi John, I just have to say your replies to postings such as this make my 
day.   Wit + intelligence + common sense = a hearty 10 points to the house of 
your choice.  Are you a writer for some late-night-talk show in disguise?? =) 
 Thanks, Jen



From john at walton.vu  Tue Feb 12 19:04:13 2002
From: john at walton.vu (John Walton)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 19:04:13 +0000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Facing The Challenge Web Site
In-Reply-To: <a4biv3+lf6k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <B88F17AD.9D06%john@walton.vu>

I wrote:

>> Except for the fact that it calls "anything to do with the occult" dangerous.
>> I find that offensive: In answer -- No, it's not. What *will* drive Christian
>> children to curiosity about other religions is the intolerant attitude shown
>> by many Christians (this site included) towards other religions, gay people,
>> and Harry Potter.
>> 
Koinonia replied:

> Why is it intolerant if a Christian believes that "anything to do with the
> occult" is dangerous?  The Bible is quite clear on that.

Because what Facing the Challenge (FC) calls "the occult" is actually a
religion. I don't see anyone calling Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism or Islam
"dangerous" and then being labeled "tolerant".

Koinonia again:

> Why is it that if one is not willing to accept certain lifestyles, Harry
> Potter, or the occult, then they are intolerant.

Because that's what intolerance means:

>From Webster's: intolerance n. The quality of being intolerant; refusal to
allow to others the enjoyment of their opinions, chosen modes of worship,
and the like; want of patience and forbearance; illiberality; bigotry; as,
intolerance shown toward a religious sect.

Compare that with:

>From the Oxford English Dictionary: tolerate v. To bear without repugnance;
to allow intellectually, or in taste, sentiment, or principle; to put up
with.

>From the American Heritage Dictionary: tolerance n. The capacity for or the
practice of recognizing and respecting the beliefs or practices of others.

> However if one continually gives misinformation about Christianity, calls
> anyone and everyone a homophobe and can't understand why some people just
> don't like Harry Potter, then why is that person considered tolerant? Sounds
> pretty intolerant to me.

You appear to be setting up a strawman to knock down with your own arguments
here, as I certainly hope you're not referring to me in the above paragraph.
I understand why people don't like Harry Potter -- though I don't agree with
them. However, I respect their right to their own opinion, as I respect your
right to your opinion.

> Many religions offer so called *guilt-free, do whatever you want, you don't
> have to answer to anyone, just do it, you are your own god* type stuff and
> that can be attractive to many children and adults.
 
Which, of course, has ABSOLUTELY NO relationship to Paganism or "the
occult". You accuse others of "misinformation" yet you yourself appear to be
doing just that. The very HEART of Pagan teaching is the three-fold rule
(a.k.a., in other religions, karmic law), which states that the good you do
will come back to you three-fold, and the bad you do will also come back to
you three-fold. That's HARDLY "guilt-free, do whatever you want, you don't
have to answer to anyone, just do it, you are your own god" and I thoroughly
object and refute that statement in relationship to Paganism. With respect,
I have yet to come across any such religion, in fact.

> It is not intolerant to raise a child on what God has to say.

Again, you put words into my mouth. I fully respect and admire parents who
bring their children up in accordance with their own religious beliefs.
However, I begin to have qualms when those religious beliefs interfere with
their children having a meaningful childhood (not that not allowing HP is
stopping meaningful childhoods), and when the parent takes as read
information (or misinformation) from a religious-based source.

> Not every person who calls themselves a Christian *is* one.  You could have a
> discussion on exactly what a Christian is and get many different responses.
> For that reason I really don't like to lump anything and everything under
> Christianity.
> 
I'm not entirely sure how to "lump" something under Christianity, but what
you're saying sounds suspiciously like sectarianism -- which has led to
generations upon generations of bloodshed in Ireland.

Moreover, who decides who gets to be called a Christian? Are the Jews For
Jesus who continually paper the NY Subway Christians? How about Sun Myung
Moon? Or Christian Pagans, who worship the Trinity using Pagan rites? And
who *makes* that decision? With all due respect, I can't see that this
argument holds up.

In response to Lou_Selastic's original post, which said:

>>> Non-Christians would find it a good read too.
 
I wrote:

>> Really? As a non-Christian, I disagree. Much of what it uses for motivation
>> is based *only* and *solely* on the Bible. One example:

and Koinonia replied

> So?  If one believes the Bible to be the inspired Word of God with no errors
> than why should it not be what they base their opinion on or live by? Just
> because the Bible might contain things that you find offensive doesn't mean
> it's wrong. 

I was objecting to Lou's statement that non-Christians would find the
article "a good read", on the basis that it's rooted too deeply in Biblical
assertions and motivations to be of much use to non-Christians in my
opinion, particularly to those of non-Abrahamic religions.

> I have no problem believing that the Perfect Creator of All would have any
> problem seeing to it that His Word was passed down without error.

I do. Then again, with respect, I don't believe in a Perfect Creator of All.
Historically, and faith notwithstanding, when one looks at Biblical
translations and adaptations made throughout time, one sees discrepancies in
translation between a previous version and a subsequent version. I
unfortunately don't have to hand the quite excellent book about this which I
own, so cannot quote specifics. Indeed, I have completely forgotten the
author's name!

Looking the wide variety of Bible versions on the market, from the NIV to
the KJV...which one of these editions is "without error"?

I wrote:

>> Nor even whether one should allow two lines in the entire Bible (which is a
>> book with many inherent contradictions)

Koinonia replied:

> Not really.

Please explain to me then why eating pork and shellfish (forbidden in the
Old Testament) is acceptable, though homosexuality (also forbidden in the
Old Testament) is not. I've never found a satisfactory answer to that -- but
that doesn't mean I'm not willing to listen.

> Why should one be expected to accept what one considers to be wrong?

[snip]

> If someone believes there is a goddess than I respect the right of that person
> to believe that way but I'm not going to live by what that person believes in.

Calling another person's religion "wrong" is hardly respecting "the right of
that person to believe that way". Not to mention that IMO it's quite
offensive. I'm sure you didn't mean it that way; care to clarify?

> A person should be free to worship what they wish but that doesn't mean they
> have to accept the other belief system as being right.

Quite true. But if you want religious freedom you must also acknowledge the
other person's/religion's right to their own belief system.

> If I believe there to be only one God then why am I not allowed to believe
> that?     

Another straw man here. Nobody is saying that you are not allowed to believe
in one God or even your God.

> I have no problem with Focus on the Family.  What is wrong with someone or
> some group having a high set of morals and living their lives based on the
> Bible? 

Nothing at all. However, I personally feel that their view that
homosexuality is a disease that can be cured or prevented is ludicrous and
offensive.

"With, the right information, the right strategy and God's help, we can
prevent homosexuality."

(from http://www.family.org/fofmag/pp/a0010619.html)

> I still say Richard Abanes got a bum deal.  Part of the problem here
> is that Abanes is well versed on certain matters and goodness knows
> that's not a good thing for the opposing side.

Discussion of Richard Abanes is banned here. I apologise for mentioning his
name, though I did so only to show that the FC website is less polemical and
moralistic than he.

> Quite the contrary.  Those who warn others of the occult and other
> non-Christian religions have a very good knowledge and perception of what
> these religions are.

I must respectfully disagree, and would also disagree that one would need to
be "warned" of another religion.

In my experience, I have never come across a religiously anti-HP site which
had its facts about Paganism correct. Not one.

> Some people are very liberal, rabid, and unmoralistic. That is their choice.

Ahem. While I'm liberal and not moralistic, I would hardly classify myself
as rabid, and you do a disservice to yourself and to your argument by
equating Liberalism and rabies.

> As far as HP is concerned, as a Christian I do love the books but I also have
> no problem if some parents don't want their child to read these books.

Parents are perfectly entitled to allow their children to read whatever they
(the parents) decide. However, I lament that, often, particularly with
regard to HP, the parental decision is made without all the facts.

--John
____________________________________________

 "Do not thump the book of G'Quon.  It is disrespectful."
-- G'Kar, Babylon 5

John Walton || Not a Thumper || john at walton.vu
____________________________________________




From kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk  Tue Feb 12 20:30:36 2002
From: kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk (Kathryn)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 20:30:36 -0000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Facing The Challenge Web Site
References: <B88F17AD.9D06%john@walton.vu>
Message-ID: <000b01c1b404$22c21c60$3d3386d9@monica>

> Many religions offer so called *guilt-free, do whatever you want, you don't
> have to answer to anyone, just do it, you are your own god* type stuff and
> that can be attractive to many children and adults.

Name 1

> Discussion of Richard Abanes is banned here

And since it is I will ask that the answer to this be mailed to me privately, but who?

K
If an advisor says to me "My liege, he is but one man. What can one man possibly do?", I will reply "This." and kill the advisor.
http://minievil.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk  Tue Feb 12 20:52:53 2002
From: kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk (Kathryn)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 20:52:53 -0000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Facing The Challenge Web Site
References: <a4b6lq+js3p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <003801c1b407$427c55e0$3d3386d9@monica>

I tried reading this I really did but I got to the bit where it says that the view that the books are about a struggle between good and evil is a bit naive and couldn't help wondering whether the author knows how many "professional" Christians (couldn't think of the word I wanted there) have expressed precisely that view, including, on more than one occasion, the Archbishop of Canterbury.

Also I wonder why it seems that the majority of these vehemently anti-everything not condoned by their particular brand of Christianity ignoramuses are American. We don't seem to get many here (UK), and none who really achieve any level of notoriety. It surprises me that the land of democracy and freeedom can breed such a number of religious bigots whereas here we tend just to point and laugh at such people?

K

If an advisor says to me "My liege, he is but one man. What can one man possibly do?", I will reply "This." and kill the advisor.
http://minievil.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From blpurdom at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 12 20:59:12 2002
From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 20:59:12 -0000
Subject: Facing The Challenge Web Site
In-Reply-To: <a4biv3+lf6k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a4bvn0+l020@eGroups.com>

lou_selastic wrote:
 
> I think the article at  www.facingthechallenge.org/potter.htm 
> gives a balanced and objective analysis of Harry Potter and aims 
> to help towards a more reasoned and thought-through response to 
> the Harry Potter film and books, rather than just a knee-jerk 
> reaction by those opposed to anything that might even allude to 
> anything to do with the occult.

While something other than an uninformed knee-jerk reaction is 
desirable in an article of this nature, I found the article to be 
something like a wolf in sheep's clothing; while it's not a 
wholesale condemnation of the HP books, it's hardly an unqualified 
endorsement of them either, and the concerns raised about any kind 
of religion or value system that is based on anything other than 
conservative Protestantism are, as John pointed out, not founded in 
fact and some references to other religious traditions are patently 
offensive.

John Walton <john at w...> wrote:

> Except for the fact that it calls "anything to do with the occult"
> dangerous. I find that offensive: In answer -- No, it's not. What 
> *will* drive Christian children to curiosity about other religions 
> is the intolerant attitude shown by many Christians (this site 
> included) towards other religions, gay people, and Harry Potter.

"koinonia02" <Koinonia2 at h...> wrote:

> Why is it intolerant if a Christian believes that "anything to do 
> with the occult" is dangerous?  The Bible is quite clear on that. 

I have two problems with each of these sentences: there is no 
definition of "occult," so it is unclear whether you mean people 
actually learning witchcraft or reading their morning horoscope (I 
do not have a problem with either practice); and saying the Bible is 
clear on anything is something I and many other people who think of 
the Bible as a holy book find offensive.  If you want to believe 
everything in the Bible is cut-and-dried, that is your choice and 
your belief.  Don't state this categorically, please.  Many sects 
believe that there is always more light to be shed on this book and 
that it is extreme hubris to claim to know the mind of God 
completely.  If everyone in the world thought everything in this 
book was clear, there would not be so many sects using it as 
scripture and people around the world debating its meaning for 
centuries.

"koinonia02" <Koinonia2 at h...> wrote:

> Why is it that if one is not willing to accept certain lifestyles, 
> Harry Potter, or the occult, then they are intolerant.  However if 
> one continually gives misinformation about Christianity, calls 
> anyone and everyone a homophobe and can't understand why some 
> people just don't like Harry Potter, then why is that person 
> considered tolerant? Sounds pretty intolerant to me.

What is a lifestyle?  In my experience, that tends to be a veiled 
method of referring to sexual minorities that needs to become a 
thing of the past as it has no real meaning.  I personally dislike 
lifestyles that include oppressing people, using more natural 
resources than you need personally to survive, disregarding others' 
belief systems and customs, failing to help others less fortunate 
than you when you have more than adequate resources to do so, 
condoning or ignoring injustice, and judging people according to 
their demographics instead of who they are as individuals.  

I also wish people would understand that "tolerate" is not really a 
nice word.  To "tolerate" someone is to just barely abide their 
existence.  It may mean, for instance, not actively running around 
physically attacking someone in a group you dislike.  
But "toleration" does not have to include giving people in that 
group basic civil rights (the demand for this is often called a 
demand for "special rights," because they're "special" if they're 
being demanded by a group that is being "tolerated" and should be 
happy with being thrown that bone).  Phooey to the word "tolerate!"

"koinonia02" <Koinonia2 at h...> wrote:
 
> Many religions offer so called *guilt-free, do whatever you want, 
> you don't have to answer to anyone, just do it, you are your own 
> god* type stuff and that can be attractive to many children and 
> adults.

If this is so, I am unfamiliar with these religions (unless Madison 
Avenue has become a religion, and I'd be willing to believe that 
since many people do seem to worship the Great God of Commerce).  
Every religion with which I am familiar requires self-examination 
and confession directly to a deity, a clergy person, or a person you 
may have wronged, and true penitance is highly recommended for peace 
of mind, as well as actual reparation, in some cases.  I am not sure 
what real religions might meet your definition above, but if that is 
merely your IMPRESSION of some sects, it is a very slanted and 
uncomplimentary (to you) way of phrasing it.

> It is not intolerant to raise a child on what God has to say.   
> 
> Not every person who calls themselves a Christian *is* one.  You 
> could have a discussion on exactly what a Christian is and get 
> many different responses.  For that reason I really don't like to 
> lump anything and everything under Christianity.

Is this what you mean about misinformation about Christianity? I 
think it is putting out "misinformation about Christianity" to claim 
that there is one thing called Christianity that has a clear-cut 
definition.  Please refer to your local telephone book; look in the 
section for "Churches."  Christianity was once, pre-Reformation, 
something close to a monolithic entity (although there have always 
been splinter groups and sects that were deemed "heretical" by the 
Church even before Luther).  This is no longer the case, and it 
hasn't been for a long, long time.  

It IS intolerant to raise a child on "what God has to say."  This is 
a type of intolerance on which I pride myself, thank you very much.  
However, what I teach my children "God says" is possibly very 
different from what some other folks are teaching their children, so 
again, I would say check out that phone book.  I personally find it 
fascinating reading!  And if someone wants to call themselves a 
Christian, I feel that's their privilege.  I would never dream of 
arguing with someone about whether they're a "real" Christian.  I 
definitely believe this is in the eye of the beholder.

"koinonia02" <Koinonia2 at h...> wrote:
     
> Why should one be expected to accept what one considers to be 
> wrong? A person should be free to worship what they wish but that 
> doesn't mean they have to accept the other belief system as being 
> right. If I believe there to be only one God then why am I not 
> allowed to believe that?  If someone believes there is a goddess 
> than I respect the right of that person to believe that way but 
> I'm not going to live by what that person believes in.   

Are you using "accept" to mean "tolerate?"  There are plenty of 
belief systems to which I do not subscribe.  You do not have to 
subscribe to a religion in which you do not believe.  I recognize 
the right of people who adhere to other systems than my own to 
freely practice their faiths and to do so with no discrimination or 
impediment to being free citizens with all of the rights and 
responsibilities thereof.  I also think each of us should have the 
right to practice our religion without its being attacked 
as "wrong."  It is when someone attacks my faith that I have a 
problem.  If a tenet of your faith is that you HAVE to attack mine, 
then that becomes problematic, and that's usually when folks who go 
around attacking others' belief systems start claiming to be the 
ones who are not being "tolerated."  If there's something I proudly 
do NOT tolerate, it's intolerance.  And no, that's not a 
contradiction.

"koinonia02" <Koinonia2 at h...> wrote:
 
> I have no problem with Focus on the Family.  What is wrong with 
> someone or some group having a high set of morals and living their 
> lives based on the Bible? 

Nothing, if they're not attacking others' belief systems and trying 
to influence public policy to reflect their beliefs only, as well as 
campaigning to deprive some people of basic civil rights by calling 
them "special rights," all of which FOF does with great regularity.

> A group like this isn't going to change their beliefs for what the 
> world believes in.  Nor should they.   Just how much lower are we 
> suppose to drop our morals in order to be considered "tolerant"?  
> Where does one draw the line?  Some are going to draw the line 
> with what the Bible says and some are going to make up their own 
> rules.

Plenty of people have a stringent personal moral code which departs 
drastically from one that would be considered adequate by FOF 
standards.  It is different, but it IS a moral code.  It is not 
valid to say that others do not have a moral code simply because it 
is different from your own.  I personally hope morals don't drop any 
lower because then we'd probably have more sweatshops, more civil 
rights abuses and and more economic injustice, but then I have a 
different definition of "low morals" than some people do.

I personally loved some posts that people put on the main list some 
time back, saying that they were very religious and conservative and 
had previously avoided the HP books, but now that they've read them 
for themselves, they find that none of the dire warnings they heard 
about occultism were founded in anything close to fact.  These are 
the kind of testimonials that are needed out there to counter the 
rabid anti-HP sentiment, not the "Facing the Challenge" site.  I 
wish I had the time to comb through the archives searching...If 
anyone remembers posting anything like this, email me if you can 
remember about what time you posted or if you know the post number.  
I can say without reserve that it makes my day when I see things 
like this!

--Barb
 
Interfaith Working Group Co-Coordinator
http://www.iwgonline.org/ 
 
 




From andrew_macian at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 12 21:11:59 2002
From: andrew_macian at yahoo.com (Andrew MacIan)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 13:11:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Facing The Challenge Web Site
In-Reply-To: <003801c1b407$427c55e0$3d3386d9@monica>
Message-ID: <20020212211159.52696.qmail@web9501.mail.yahoo.com>

Greetings from Andrew!

Paraphrasing Mr Clemens, the reason that the circus
never caught on in the US is that we have religion....

--- Kathryn <kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> I tried reading this I really did but I got to the
> bit where it says that the view that the books are
> about a struggle between good and evil is a bit
> naive

True.  However, one must also observe that this level
of naivety is perfectly suited to the site's target
audience:  Binary only, no 'grey' since that is too
confusing, and only support the 'right' side of the
argument.

> and couldn't help wondering whether the author
> knows how many "professional" Christians (couldn't
> think of the word I wanted there) have expressed
> precisely that view, including, on more than one
> occasion, the Archbishop of Canterbury.

Hrm.  In my case (having been in the US for far too
long) the term 'professional' brings to mind those
like Falwell and Co.; those who, for whatever reason
they might have, come across as being a cross-product
of rabid intolerant 'true believer' and  reactionary
politician.

YMMV, especially without having to deal with this sort
of person in your culture/place of residence.

> 
> Also I wonder why it seems that the majority of
> these vehemently anti-everything not condoned by
> their particular brand of Christianity ignoramuses
> are American. 

This why I brought up Sam'l Clemens in my header.  The
freedom of religion permits those who care to do so to
indulge in various forms of flights of fancy.  The
freedom from religion permits the rest of us to gawk
at such antics, knowing that both sides have the right
to act as we choose.

The problem comes when such antics cross into the
political mainstream.  Them it would be correct to
quote Mr Orwell....but I digress.

> We don't seem to get many here (UK),
> and none who really achieve any level of notoriety.
> It surprises me that the land of democracy and
> freeedom can breed such a number of religious bigots
> whereas here we tend just to point and laugh at such
> people?

Vide supra....and know that there are those of us on
this side of the Atlantic who have been laughing
without pause (save when religion crosses the
political boundaries) at such bigots for years, just
as we laugh at the more ludicrous political fringes.

Recall also the sage advice of RAH on this:  Whenever
a man boasts about how honest he is, make him pay
cash.

Cheers,

Drieux

=====
ICQ # 76184391

'Each game of chess means there's one less
      Variation left to be played;
 Each day got through means one or two less
      Mistakes remain to be made.'
      --'Chess' by Sir Tim Rice

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
http://greetings.yahoo.com



From moongirlk at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 12 21:24:09 2002
From: moongirlk at yahoo.com (moongirlk)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 21:24:09 -0000
Subject: Suzie Wong/Many Splendours: Chinese culture in 1950s Hollywood
In-Reply-To: <006d01c1b17c$cdeff240$0635c2cb@price>
Message-ID: <a4c15p+gsgf@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "Tabouli" <tabouli at u...> wrote:
> Also, I allowed myself some Genuine Eurasian sniffing at Jennifer 
Jones' attempts to look Eurasian by dyeing her wavy hair an unlikely 
blue-black, wearing a cheongsam and squinting.  Hers are European 
features if ever I've seen 'em.  Though of course, it must be said 
that when I went to China I found it very hard to convince anyone of 
my Chinese blood, and I'm the real thing.  Hmm.  Well, (she says 
huffily), at least I have straight, genuinely dark hair (very few 
Eurasians have blue-black hair - their hair is typically straight and 
very dark brown with a slight reddish tinge, like mine) and a light 
olive complexion, and there *are* some angles where you can see the 
Chinese in my eyes.
> 

I've been wanting to ask somebody about this very issue, and look how 
the opportunity presented itself.  
I recently read a junky novel in which a girl with a Japanese mother 
and a red-headed Irish-American father had no discernable Asian 
physical characteristics - she had rosey cheeks and curly copper-red 
hair and her father's eyes too.  It really interfered with my ability 
to suspend disbelief because it seemed nearly impossible.  So please, 
Tabouli, in your Eurasian wisdom - was this a cheap trick for the 
sake of the story, or is that plausible?

kimberly


kimberly




From moongirlk at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 12 22:21:16 2002
From: moongirlk at yahoo.com (moongirlk)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 22:21:16 -0000
Subject: Facing The Challenge Web Site
In-Reply-To: <B88F17AD.9D06%john@walton.vu>
Message-ID: <a4c4gs+g5qg@eGroups.com>

As a more-or-less outspoken Christian, I am approaching this, 
although with great trepidation and a quick prayer that I don't make 
things worse.

I have avoided for awhile now reading anything new about 
Christians/Christianity and HP because most of it makes me very 
uncomfortable.  I don't even know who this Abanes-who-must-not-be-
named is, and don't really want to (animosity and combativeness make 
me queasy).  

What I would like to ask is that we try to avoid the queasy-making 
(hence the reason for my speaking up) animosity that seems to be 
seeping into the discussion.  I know that John has been around for a 
long time and I have read and enjoyed his posts.  I do not know the 
other posters involved as well, but am inclined to respect them as 
well.  I think there is a degree of intolerance in both directions, 
however.  I hope that we can disagree and even explain our reasons 
for disagreeing without attacking each other's beliefs. 

I almost went off on a little tangent about how on an individual (and 
not institutional) level tolerance is not necessarily a great virtue 
(with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one 
explaining in detail that I didn't mean that people should be allowed 
to enforce their lifestyles or opinions on other people, but that 
they should be allowed to try to *convince* the other person if they 
want to and if the other person is willing to enter into the 
discussion and especially if the other person is already trying to 
convince them of their own point of view, which is completely 
different and actually not intolerance at all, but simply deebate, 
even if it is often called intolerance and therefore maybe tolerance 
is a great virtue after all but that it's really naughty to call on 
it when somebody's not actually *being* intolerant and...), but I 
didn't.  Dodged that bullet, huh?

kimberly
who tries mediation, supplication and humor to avoid conflict and 
wonders if anyone knows what the circles and arrows reference is about





From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Tue Feb 12 22:44:39 2002
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 22:44:39 -0000
Subject: Circles and arrows
In-Reply-To: <a4c4gs+g5qg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a4c5sn+hlmg@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "moongirlk" <moongirlk at y...> wrote:

> kimberly
> who tries mediation, supplication and humor to avoid conflict and 
> wonders if anyone knows what the circles and arrows reference is 
about

Sounds like Oliver Wood to me - but that was wiggly lines, wasn't it?

On a more serious note, if a religion makes statements which claim to 
empirically verifiable, then it should be prepared to be 
called 'wrong', and if it doesn't, one wonders whether it is worth 
bothering with

David




From kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk  Tue Feb 12 22:57:53 2002
From: kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 22:57:53 -0000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Circles and arrows
References: <a4c5sn+hlmg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000b01c1b418$b5ab4600$541486d9@monica>

Religions are based on faith not empirical evidence. The whole point of faith is to take that leap of faith without needing proof, to take that step off the cliff knowing that someone is there to catch you. Personally I admire anyone with that kind of faith even though I do not have it myself. Like you I have a need for evidence and facts, which is probably why I am not a member of any kind of religion. 
Telling someone their religion is "wrong" is an exercisde in futility but true theological debat between members of the same religion or different religions is certainly to be encouraged. After all the point of this kind of debate is not to "win" but to acheive some kind of enlightenment, after all you will never get someone to say "I was a devout Christian/Moslem/Hindu/insert religion here but having heard your words of wisdom I suddenly realise I should be a Christian/Moslem/Hindu/etc!". And in depth study of religious works can be fun, you can use them to prove almost anything if you try hard enough - the devil can quote scripture to his own purpose :)
OK I got somewhat of my own point there but hey, you didn't have to read it.

K
(who firmly believs we should argue more and fight less)

If an advisor says to me "My liege, he is but one man. What can one man possibly do?", I will reply "This." and kill the advisor.
http://minievil.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: davewitley 
  To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 10:44 PM
  Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Circles and arrows


  --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "moongirlk" <moongirlk at y...> wrote:

  > kimberly
  > who tries mediation, supplication and humor to avoid conflict and 
  > wonders if anyone knows what the circles and arrows reference is 
  about

  Sounds like Oliver Wood to me - but that was wiggly lines, wasn't it?

  On a more serious note, if a religion makes statements which claim to 
  empirically verifiable, then it should be prepared to be 
  called 'wrong', and if it doesn't, one wonders whether it is worth 
  bothering with

  David


        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
              ADVERTISEMENT
             
       
       

  ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________

  Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the group's Admin Files!
  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/

  Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying!

  Is your message...
  An announcement of merchandise, news etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements.
  Movie-related? Send it to HPFGU-Movie.
  Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups.
  None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter.
  Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com

  Unsubscribing? Email HPFGU-OTChatter-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
  ____________________________________________________________


  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Tue Feb 12 23:18:55 2002
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 23:18:55 -0000
Subject: Circles and Arrows reference
In-Reply-To: <a4c4gs+g5qg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a4c7sv+7gef@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "moongirlk" <moongirlk at y...> 
wrote:

> I almost went off on a little tangent about how on an individual 
(and 
 not institutional) level tolerance is not necessarily a great virtue 
> (with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each 
one 


"twenty-seven eight by ten colored glossy pictures with circles 
and arrows  and a paragraph on the the back of each one, 
explaining what each one was, to be used as evidence against 
us..."

Arlo Guthrie, of course! From the immortal Alice's Restaurant.

Pippin
who thinks this thread is fascinating but has no idea whether HP 
is consonant with Christian or Pagan beliefs. But I do think that it 
is very rude to point your finger and laugh at anybody's religion, 
no matter how silly you think it is.

"You can get anything you want, at Alice's Restaurant (excepting 
Alice)"




From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Tue Feb 12 23:30:41 2002
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 23:30:41 -0000
Subject: Leaps of faith
In-Reply-To: <000b01c1b418$b5ab4600$541486d9@monica>
Message-ID: <a4c8j1+77kt@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "Kathryn Cawte" <kcawte at k...> wrote:
> Religions are based on faith not empirical evidence. The whole 
point of faith is to take that leap of faith without needing proof, 
to take that step off the cliff knowing that someone is there to 
catch you. 

Yes, but what I mean is that, having leapt, you are either at the 
bottom of the cliff or somebody has caught you (well, what often 
tends to happen is that you discover that the cliff was in your 
imagination).

If you are at the bottom, then I think 'wrong' is a fair description 
(though some people just modify their faith to say that the crunch at 
the bottom was all-wise providence - which is more like the kind you 
can never verify).

And if somebody caught you, you are now in the very dangerous 
position of knowing that you are 'right', and have a duty to consider 
the implications for other people.

I think the nearest description of my faith is to say that the cliffs 
have all been imaginary - but the area bounded by them is still much 
smaller than it ought to be - and don't ask me what I mean by the 
word 'ought': I have no basis whatever for such a judgement.

David




From andrew_macian at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 12 23:44:44 2002
From: andrew_macian at yahoo.com (Andrew MacIan)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 15:44:44 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Facing The Challenge Web Site
In-Reply-To: <a4c4gs+g5qg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20020212234444.19115.qmail@web9503.mail.yahoo.com>

Greetings from Andrew!

Still sittin' on the Group W bench, waitin' for it to
come around on the guitar again....

--- moongirlk <moongirlk at yahoo.com> wrote:
> As a more-or-less outspoken Christian, I am
> approaching this, 
> although with great trepidation and a quick prayer
> that I don't make 
> things worse.

One should not approach things in life without some
regard to the outcome, unless you take the same view
Dick Feynman did:  What do *you* care what other
people think?

In this portion of what has been a surprisingly long
life, I've come to agree with him.  For me, being
honest to and about myself are the most important
things in this multiverse.

> 
> I have avoided for awhile now reading anything new
> about 
> Christians/Christianity and HP because most of it
> makes me very 
> uncomfortable. 

Professionally nosy question:  Why so?

> I don't even know who this
> Abanes-who-must-not-be-
> named is, and don't really want to (animosity and
> combativeness make 
> me queasy).  
> 

Stand fast and stay true to yourself; all else is both
transitory and not worth worrying about, says I.


> What I would like to ask is that we try to avoid the
> queasy-making 
> (hence the reason for my speaking up) animosity that
> seems to be 
> seeping into the discussion.  I know that John has
> been around for a 
> long time and I have read and enjoyed his posts.  I
> do not know the 
> other posters involved as well, but am inclined to
> respect them as 
> well.  I think there is a degree of intolerance in
> both directions, 
> however.  I hope that we can disagree and even
> explain our reasons 
> for disagreeing without attacking each other's
> beliefs.z

De facto, I cannot argue against the statement 'I
believe X', no matter what 'X' is. I might find it
silly/ludicrous/whatever, but those reactions are
based on my POV.  Certainly, others might, and
doubtless do, feel the same way about what I believe. 
Fine.  However, when someone says that I *must*
believe X or 'burn' in 'hell' eternally (or that
religion's equivalent), that is when I both laugh
openly and require them to prove it.  Not tell me
what/why they belive, but to offer objective, rational
proof as to why *I* *must* adopt that particular Path.

> 
> I almost went off on a little tangent about how on
> an individual (and 
> not institutional) level tolerance is not
> necessarily a great virtue 
> (with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back
> of each one 
> explaining in detail that I didn't mean that people
> should be allowed 
> to enforce their lifestyles or opinions on other
> people, but that 
> they should be allowed to try to *convince* the
> other person if they 
> want to and if the other person is willing to enter
> into the 
> discussion and especially if the other person is
> already trying to 
> convince them of their own point of view, which is
> completely 
> different and actually not intolerance at all, but
> simply deebate, 
> even if it is often called intolerance and therefore
> maybe tolerance 
> is a great virtue after all but that it's really
> naughty to call on 
> it when somebody's not actually *being* intolerant
> and...), but I 
> didn't.  Dodged that bullet, huh?

it would have been an interesting, instructive, and
from my position, flame-free discussion, I'm sure. 
Care to take it whack at it?  My own knowledge of your
faith is based on my own former affiliation with the
Eastern Orthodox Church...to the point that, prior to
an occurance in Nam, I was actively thinking of
entering the priesthood.

> 
> kimberly
> who tries mediation, supplication and humor to avoid
> conflict and 
> wonders if anyone knows what the circles and arrows
> reference is about

{laughter}  Some of us sang the original in recruit
formation waiting to take the oath....

Cheers,

Drieux

=====
ICQ # 76184391

'Each game of chess means there's one less
      Variation left to be played;
 Each day got through means one or two less
      Mistakes remain to be made.'
      --'Chess' by Sir Tim Rice

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
http://greetings.yahoo.com



From moongirlk at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 12 23:46:04 2002
From: moongirlk at yahoo.com (moongirlk)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 23:46:04 -0000
Subject: Circles and arrows
In-Reply-To: <a4c5sn+hlmg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a4c9fs+ovf1@eGroups.com>

I said:
> > who tries mediation, supplication and humor to avoid conflict and 
> > wonders if anyone knows what the circles and arrows reference is 
> about

Dave tried valiantly...
> 
> Sounds like Oliver Wood to me - but that was wiggly lines, wasn't 
>it?

...but my train of thought is too convoluted for him, or maybe he's 
just never visited Alice's restaurant.


> 
> On a more serious note, if a religion makes statements which claim 
to 
> empirically verifiable, then it should be prepared to be 
> called 'wrong', and if it doesn't, one wonders whether it is worth 
> bothering with
> 

I prefer the term faith to religion.  (look out, tangent coming!) 
Religion implies an institution of some sort, and is too often used 
to hate, kill. opress, etc.  From my understanding, God is going to 
deal very harshly with those who use His name for such ends.
  
But back to empirically verifiable stuff in re faith.  I have faith 
that there's a God who knows what's Going On even if I don't, and 
somehow manages to love us all despite the fact that we're such a 
bunch of screwups most of the time.  There's a whole bunch of stuff 
that goes along with that, which is why people do rely on the Bible, 
and those who are serious try to make sure they're using the most 
faithful translation and research ambiguities, possible 
contradictions, etc. (we are encouraged in the Bible itself to scour 
scripture to make sure we are getting correct teaching - I think this 
includes that sort of research).

Hey, where'd I put that point I was trying to make... Aha!  The point 
is the whole idea of faith is that there *is* no empirical proof, and 
you choose to believe it anyway.  It's a bit of a gamble, but to 
paraphrase liberally Pascal, the payoff is great if you're right, and 
to paraphrase the Missouri Lottery more directly, You can't win if 
you don't play.

Boy, I sound like a freak.  

kimberly
who, if you're entertained by any of that, also has a "Witness 
Protection Program as Christian allegory" theory.  What's that?  No 
takers?  Hmmm...




From dizzylizzy182 at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 12 23:56:28 2002
From: dizzylizzy182 at yahoo.com (Elizabeth Sager)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 15:56:28 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Resemblence
Message-ID: <20020212235628.32993.qmail@web20407.mail.yahoo.com>

Pippin asked on the HP4GU list:
What about the rest of you, does anyone in your life
resemble an 
HP character? Replies to OT-Chatter.

Well, my friend Spencer (who I spend *way* too much
time staring at) is definitely an older version of
Harry, except he's got brown eyes and sort of a dark
complexion (Explanation: He's part Native American,
aways back). But otherwise he's got it down, I'll see
if I have any pictures...

I guess if you squinted hard enough my youth group
leader could be a Sirius Black. He's got a real slight
build, but he doesn't have the whole
I-Just-Escaped-From-Prison Look down. 

And then there's of course my two newest kitties,
Harry and Ron. *giggles* They like to pal around and
get into trouble, and have black hair and red hair, so
what could I do but name them Harry and Ron? 

Liz

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
http://greetings.yahoo.com



From saitaina at wizzards.net  Wed Feb 13 00:02:52 2002
From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 16:02:52 -0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Resemblence
References: <20020212235628.32993.qmail@web20407.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000001c1b423$01f6efa0$6f4e28d1@oemcomputer>

Liz wrote-

<Well, my friend Spencer (who I spend *way* too much
time staring at) is definitely an older version of
Harry, except he's got brown eyes and sort of a dark
complexion (Explanation: He's part Native American,
aways back). But otherwise he's got it down, I'll see
if I have any pictures...>

Have to share this as I've been waiting forever to tell this story to
someone-

I was out for an audition for the local theatre and just happened to be
reading GoF (for the fifteenth million time) and I glanced up from the book
and nearly fell out of my chair.  There in front of me was Harry.  I swear
to any god I can name that it was him.  Okay it was actually a fellow actor
named Ewen  but for a split second I was wondering what Harry Potter was
doing in Roseburg.  He has the complete look, messy black hair, green eyes,
glasses, and he wears clothes that would have fit Dudley ages ago.  I could
not take my eyes  off him for most of the audition which has now fed a rumor
that I have a crush on him but the look was so identical it was nerve
wracking.

Needless to say I lost the part due to my inability to concentrate.

As for other characters...I saw a Draco once, the fact that he's gay just
fed my inner slasher so I had a fun giggle that day.  (No his boyfriend
wasn't a Harry type for those wonder, he had long red hair so now I have a
Draco/Bill bunny hopping around in my brain.)


Saitaina
*****
Also Doing: Baking/role-playing
Last Movie Seen: Harry Potter and the Sorcer's Stone (3rd time)
Last TV Show Seen: "Judge Judy"
Current Book-"The Lunatic Cafe" by Laurell K Hamilton




From walkthewalk999 at aol.com  Wed Feb 13 00:21:26 2002
From: walkthewalk999 at aol.com (walkthewalk999 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 19:21:26 EST
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Facing The Challenge Web Site
Message-ID: <69.220fee36.299b0b86@aol.com>


This is only my second post to this list, and I usually lurk, but this 
discussion will not let me stay quiet



> 
> 
> "koinonia02" <Koinonia2 at h...> wrote:
> 
> > Why is it intolerant if a Christian believes that "anything to do 
> > with the occult" is dangerous?  The Bible is quite clear on that. 

You have to be kidding?  Since when is the Bible clear on anything?  There is 
so much gray in the Bible, it gives humans the chance to question ourselves.  
I bet if we put 3 theologians in a room, and they wont all agree on a single 
verse.

There is no "the" Christian way of thinking on any one topic.

I believe the bible says to take all that you have and give to the poor, and 
we should stone bad teenagers....... it is VERY clear on that.... yes?



"koinonia02" <Koinonia2 at h...> wrote:
> 
> 
> > Why is it that if one is not willing to accept certain lifestyles, 
> > Harry Potter, or the occult, then they are intolerant.  However if 
> > one continually gives misinformation about Christianity, calls 
> > anyone and everyone a homophobe and can't understand why some 
> > people just don't like Harry Potter, then why is that person 
> > considered tolerant? Sounds pretty intolerant to me.

As a Christian who has a lesbian sister, I think anyone that believes that 
all Christians think the same way about homosexuality needs to rethink this.  
My sister's "lifestyle" includes....... paying her mortage, going to work, 
working overtime, making car payments, fixing dinner, an occasional beer, 
going to church, working at a homeless shelter on weekends, etc........ hell 
of a "lifestyle". 

She leads more of a Christian "lifestyle" than most Christians I know!!



> 
> > It is not intolerant to raise a child on what God has to say.   
> > 
> > Not every person who calls themselves a Christian *is* one.  

And who made you judge a jury?  What does God have to say......  "Judge not 
that ye be not judged....... and why beholdest though the mote in your 
brothers eye and considerith not the beam in your own?



> "koinonia02" <Koinonia2 at h...> wrote:
> 
> > I have no problem with Focus on the Family.  What is wrong with 
> > someone or some group having a high set of morals and living their 
> > lives based on the Bible? 


I DO!!!  I have major problems with Focus on the Family.  They have the right 
to believe what they want, but dont try to make it the law and force me to 
live by your beliefs.  If people think abortion is wrong, dont have one.  If 
you think homosexuality is wrong, dont have gay sex.    

If focus on the family wants to preach to the choir fine, but my sister's 
civil rights should not be infringed upon because of their religion.  The 
Constitution is the Law of THIS land, NOT the bible.

I will defend yours or anyones right to freedom of your religion (including 
Wicca, Buddhist, etc...) freedom of speech (including the KKK, and James 
Dobson or Howard Stern), and freedom to live by your moral convictions, just 
dont make me have to practice your religious convictions if they conflict 
with mine.

Linda..... who is sorry for the rant, and will go back to lurking now


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk  Wed Feb 13 00:23:07 2002
From: kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk (Kathryn)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 00:23:07 -0000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Circles and arrows
References: <a4c9fs+ovf1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <001901c1b424$9e3e7440$a10486d9@monica>

Now this I gotta hear :)

K
If an advisor says to me "My liege, he is but one man. What can one man possibly do?", I will reply "This." and kill the advisor.
http://minievil.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: moongirlk 
  To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 11:46 PM
  Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Circles and arrows

  kimberly
  who, if you're entertained by any of that, also has a "Witness 
  Protection Program as Christian allegory" theory.  What's that?  No 
  takers?  Hmmm...



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From ewe2 at can.org.au  Wed Feb 13 00:37:07 2002
From: ewe2 at can.org.au (Sean Dwyer)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 11:37:07 +1100
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Facing The Challenge Web Site
In-Reply-To: <a4c4gs+g5qg@eGroups.com>
References: <B88F17AD.9D06%john@walton.vu> <a4c4gs+g5qg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20020213003707.GA7410@can.org.au>

On Tue, Feb 12, 2002 at 10:21:16PM -0000, moongirlk wrote:
[snippety doo dah]
> 
> kimberly
> who tries mediation, supplication and humor to avoid conflict and 
> wonders if anyone knows what the circles and arrows reference is about

...just walk in to the shrink whereever you are, just walk in and say
"Shrink...you can get anything you want at Alice's Restaurant", and walk out.

Sean (member of the Alice's Restaurant In Time Massacree Movement)

-- 
Sean Dwyer <ewe2 at can.org.au>
Web: http://www.geocities.com/ewe2_au/



From john at walton.vu  Wed Feb 13 02:59:05 2002
From: john at walton.vu (John Walton)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 02:59:05 +0000
Subject: Alice's Restaurant
In-Reply-To: <20020213003707.GA7410@can.org.au>
Message-ID: <B88F86F9.9DF6%john@walton.vu>

*sings* You can get anything you want at Alice's Restaurant!

I had no idea there were so many Guthrie fans on HPFGU! (Okay, so there are
four or so of us...). Joywitch and I have long theorised that if we were
ever to end up alone with a bottle of wine we would likely start singing
Guthrie and Seeger 60s rabid--oops, I mean liberal--songs.

I must say, though, that my favorite Guthrie is Deportee. Does anyone else
own the Tribute to Woody Guthrie CD? It's one of my favorites.

--John

____________________________________________

 "Do not thump the book of G'Quon.  It is disrespectful."
-- G'Kar, Babylon 5

John Walton || john at walton.vu
____________________________________________




From munchiethe6th at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 13 03:26:54 2002
From: munchiethe6th at yahoo.com (Emily Schanker)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 19:26:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Alice's Restaurant; and Hi from New Member
In-Reply-To: <B88F86F9.9DF6%john@walton.vu>
Message-ID: <20020213032654.26698.qmail@web9506.mail.yahoo.com>

Hi All,

I'm new to the OT list, and have only posted once on
the main list. I really enjoy most of the things
discussed here, and its nice to find others with
similar interests.  To introduce myself, I'm a
sophomore in college, majoring in Engineering. Got
turned on to HP last September to prepare for the
movie and have been addicted ever since. I've even
converted a few people along the way too. :-D

--- John Walton <john at walton.vu> wrote:
> *sings* You can get anything you want at Alice's
> Restaurant!

*sings* "Excepting Alice!"

> 
> I had no idea there were so many Guthrie fans on
> HPFGU! (Okay, so there are
> four or so of us...). 

You've got one more! I also like his songs and
"stories" (I don't know if Alice's Restaurant counts
as a song).  Although the protest era was before my
time (about 15-20 year before I was born), I still
like a lot of the music from then, including Guthrie,
Seeger, and Harry Chapin (who is one of my favorite
musicians).

> I must say, though, that my favorite Guthrie is
> Deportee. 

My favorite Guthrie is The Motorcycle Song. "I don't
want a pickle/ I just wanna ride on my motorsickle./
And I don't wanna die/ I just wanna ride on my
motorcy...cle".

> --John
> 
> ____________________________________________
> 
>  "Do not thump the book of G'Quon.  It is
> disrespectful."
> -- G'Kar, Babylon 5
> 
> John Walton || john at walton.vu
> ____________________________________________
> 

By the way John, I just love your Babylon 5 quotes. It
its one of my favorite shows.

"Time? There is infinite time. You are finite, Zathras
is finite, this...is wrong tool. No, very bad, never
use this!" --Zathras, Babylon 5

munchiethe6th


=====
"Evil will always triumph because GOOD IS DUMB!!!"

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
http://greetings.yahoo.com



From voicelady at mymailstation.com  Wed Feb 13 02:35:43 2002
From: voicelady at mymailstation.com (voicelady)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 22:35:43 EDT
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Circles and arrows & 1LP
Message-ID: <id.12022002223543.00000@FPE>

I actually *have* visited Alice's Restaurant!

Just walk right in, it's around the back just a half a mile from the railroad track.

And you realize of course, that there are a bunch of younguns scratching their heads right now saying, "What?"  Of course, it's very possible that we may have a few...ahem...more mature (and I use that term loosely ; p - I happen to count myself among that group) folks who also are slightly confused, also.

And now for something completely different:

For anyone who's interested:

A few of my co-workers and I were back in our old building at One Liberty Plaza (right across the street from the WTC) today for our final cleanup.  Our first trip in was back in October when we grabbed necessities.  Today we were taking care of everything else.

The sight out the window has improved dramatically.  It looks more like an intense construction site rather than a place of massive destruction.

Those workers deserve every bit of our praise.  They're doing hard, emotional work, and they are doing an incredible job.

Jeralyn
--------------------------------------------------------------
Kimberly wrote:  "...but my train of thought is too convoluted for him, or maybe he's  just never visited Alice's restaurant."




From jdumas at kingwoodcable.com  Wed Feb 13 04:08:29 2002
From: jdumas at kingwoodcable.com (Katze)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 22:08:29 -0600
Subject: My SHIP is sinking...
Message-ID: <3C69E6BD.7CCE8634@kingwoodcable.com>

First...I'm sending this to the OT list because I'm more talking about
fanfics than I am canon. 

Up front, I'll tell you that I used to be a R/Hr shipper, and a
Harry/?-not-Ginny shipper.

I dare say that my original idea of an Hr/R pairing is beginning to
wane, and it's all due to the fanfics I've started to read. I'm now
finding that I'm ever so slowly becoming a R/death-or-? shipper (which
doesn't bode well for Ron's fate), Hr/H shipper, and even a D/G shipper
(Draco will have to clean up his act first though). 

After reading various fanfics, I've found a very strange pattern occur
is fics that end up H/Hr.  It seems that the impulse reaction is to pair
Ron and Hermione, and Harry with either Ginny or x (I won't read fics
where he's dead). What disturbs me is that Ron is either made to be the
bad guy/bad husband, or he is killed off in order to make the
Harry/Hermione happen. Why is this?

Knut for your thoughts?
-Katze



From dizzylizzy182 at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 13 04:15:57 2002
From: dizzylizzy182 at yahoo.com (Elizabeth Sager)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 20:15:57 -0800 (PST)
Subject: stuff in digest #533 (553?)
In-Reply-To: <1013570818.3323.3303.m12@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20020213041557.7851.qmail@web20405.mail.yahoo.com>

I went and read that essay, or website, or whatever
you want to call it.

As a Christian, I guess I'm caught somewhere in the
middle. Call me enlightened. I'm perfectly fine if
someone doesn't want to read the HP books, and don't,
and speak nothing else of it. Its the people who go
out and try to rile up supporters and want to ban the
books, or burn them, or who seek to make everyone else
think like they think that I draw the line at. 

I have many soapboxes...one of them happens to be that
the HP books are not evil or a work of 'occult', if
you will.

I consider myself a fairly intelligent sixteen year
old, perhaps above average for someone of my age in my
location (the boonies). And let me just say, Americans
will believe whatever's easiest, rather than looking
it up for themselves. If that involves taking a
wonderfully imaginative and though provoking book out
of a person's hand and preaching to them
instead...well, its sad, but it happens.

Liz (who would like to say that Linda is her new hero)

P.S. in response to 'Resemblence', my earlier post, I
have a friend I kind of see as a grown up Ginny. Her
name is Christina, and she's v. pretty with red curly
hair and brown eyes (I think). 

--- HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com wrote:
>
________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________
> 
> Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the
> group's Admin Files!
>
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/
> 
> Remember to use accurate subject headings and to
> snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're
> replying!
> 
> Is your message...
> An announcement of merchandise, news etc.? Send it
> to HPFGU-Announcements.
> Movie-related? Send it to HPFGU-Movie.
> Referencing *only* the books? Send it to
> HPforGrownups.
> None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter.
> Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf
> or the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com
> 
> Unsubscribing? Email
> HPFGU-OTChatter-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
>
____________________________________________________________
> 
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> There are 25 messages in this issue.
> 
> Topics in this digest:
> 
>       1. going to go pout now....
>            From: "Rachel Bray" <bray.262 at osu.edu>
>       2. Re: Facing The Challenge Web Site
>            From: John Walton <john at walton.vu>
>       3. Re: Facing The Challenge Web Site
>            From: "koinonia02"
> <Koinonia2 at hotmail.com>
>       4. ADMIN: Facing the Challenge Website
>            From: "plinsenmayer"
> <pennylin at swbell.net>
>       5. Re: Note to John-Facing The Challenge Web
> Site
>            From: Indyfans at aol.com
>       6. Re: Re: Facing The Challenge Web Site
>            From: John Walton <john at walton.vu>
>       7. Re: Re: Facing The Challenge Web Site
>            From: "Kathryn"
> <kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk>
>       8. Re: Facing The Challenge Web Site
>            From: "Kathryn"
> <kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk>
>       9. Re: Facing The Challenge Web Site
>            From: "blpurdom" <blpurdom at yahoo.com>
>      10. Re: Facing The Challenge Web Site
>            From: Andrew MacIan
> <andrew_macian at yahoo.com>
>      11. Re: Suzie Wong/Many Splendours: Chinese
> culture in 1950s Hollywood
>            From: "moongirlk" <moongirlk at yahoo.com>
>      12. Re: Facing The Challenge Web Site
>            From: "moongirlk" <moongirlk at yahoo.com>
>      13. Re: Circles and arrows
>            From: "davewitley"
> <dfrankiswork at netscape.net>
>      14. Re: Re: Circles and arrows
>            From: "Kathryn Cawte"
> <kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk>
>      15. Re:Circles and Arrows reference
>            From: "pippin_999" <foxmoth at qnet.com>
>      16. Re: Leaps of faith
>            From: "davewitley"
> <dfrankiswork at netscape.net>
>      17. Re: Re: Facing The Challenge Web Site
>            From: Andrew MacIan
> <andrew_macian at yahoo.com>
>      18. Re: Circles and arrows
>            From: "moongirlk" <moongirlk at yahoo.com>
>      19. Resemblence
>            From: Elizabeth Sager
> <dizzylizzy182 at yahoo.com>
>      20. Re: Resemblence
>            From: "Saitaina" <saitaina at wizzards.net>
>      21. Re: Re: Facing The Challenge Web Site
>            From: walkthewalk999 at aol.com
>      22. Re: Re: Circles and arrows
>            From: "Kathryn"
> <kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk>
>      23. Re: Re: Facing The Challenge Web Site
>            From: Sean Dwyer <ewe2 at can.org.au>
>      24. Alice's Restaurant
>            From: John Walton <john at walton.vu>
>      25. Re: Alice's Restaurant; and Hi from New
> Member
>            From: Emily Schanker
> <munchiethe6th at yahoo.com>
> 
> 
>
________________________________________________________________________
>
________________________________________________________________________
> 
> Message: 1
>    Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 09:49:10 EST5EDT
>    From: "Rachel Bray" <bray.262 at osu.edu>
> Subject: going to go pout now....
> 
> Even though I'm THRILLED Moulin (and LOTR) got
> nominated 
> for Best Picture....I'm bummed that Ewan didn't get 
> nominated and Baz didn't get a Best Director nod. 
> Oh well.
> 
> Does anyone on the list own a Bichon Frise?  I've
> been 
> wanting to get one now for more than a year and am
> curious 
> about people's experiences with them.  E-mail me
> privately 
> if you have any insight on these adorable dogs.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> Rachel Bray
> The Ohio State University
> Fees, Deposits and Disbursements
> 
> Inigo: That Vizzini, he can *fuss*.
> Fezzik: Fuss, fuss... I think he like to scream at
> *us*.
> Inigo: Probably he means no *harm*.
> Fezzik: He's really very short on *charm*.
> Inigo: You have a great gift for rhyme.
> Fezzik: Yes, yes, some of the time.
> Vizzini: Enough of that!
> Inigo: Fezzik, are there rocks ahead?
> Fezzik: If there are, we all be dead!
> Vizzini: No more rhymes now, I mean it!
> Fezzik: Anybody want a peanut?
> Vizzini: AAHHHHHH!!
>           - The Princess Bride
> 
> 
>
________________________________________________________________________
>
________________________________________________________________________
> 
> Message: 2
>    Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 15:22:07 +0000
>    From: John Walton <john at walton.vu>
> Subject: Re: Facing The Challenge Web Site
> 
> lou_selastic wrote:
> 
> > I have only just joined this group and have no
> intention of mentioning or
> > discussing the book by Richard Abane.
> 
> Thank [insert deity(ies)] for that.
> 
> > But for Christian parents who are interested in
> the debate about whether the
> > HP books could lead to kids developing an interest
> in the occult there is a
> > very good article at 
> www.facingthechallenge.org/potter.htm.
> 
> Hmm. 
> 
> > In my opinion, Christian parents seem to fall into
> two broad camps:
> > those who can't see any harm in Harry Potter and
> who are probably
> > taking their own kids to see it, and those who
> believe it encourages
> > an interest in the occult and should be avoided as
> evil.
> 
> An excellent paraphrase from the site.
> 
> > I think the article at 
> www.facingthechallenge.org/potter.htm gives a
> > balanced and objective analysis of Harry Potter
> and aims to help
> > towards a more reasoned and thought-through
> response to the Harry
> > Potter film and books, rather than just a
> knee-jerk reaction by those
> > opposed to anything that might even allude to
> anything to do with the
> > occult.
> 
> Except for the fact that it calls "anything to do
> with the occult"
> dangerous. I find that offensive:
> 
> "some Harry Potter web sites contain links to
> genuine witchcraft and occult
> sites, so we still need to exercise caution."
> 
> "We may just take it for granted that our kids are
> not in danger of being
> 
=== message truncated ===


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
http://greetings.yahoo.com



From firefightermichelle at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 13 04:34:27 2002
From: firefightermichelle at yahoo.com (firefightermichelle)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 04:34:27 -0000
Subject: Challenges everyday ....
Message-ID: <a4cqcj+74df@eGroups.com>

This may be a kind of a tangent and is probably more of a statement 
than anything else ... just something I wanted to say!

Heterosexual Pagan women are pretty rare in a profession where the 
majority of people are Christian and the majority of females are 
homosexual.  Guess who doesn't talk about her beliefs (religion?) at 
work?  Yeah ... I just smile and pretend I'm just pretending to play 
the Devil's Advocate when it comes to religious discussions :)

As far as tolerance (acceptance?) goes ... I am one of the most 
tolerant and/or accepting people I know.  Most of the guys I work 
with would sleep in a different room, even if it meant giving up the 
bed they'd slept in at work for 20 years if they knew a male member 
of the crew was gay.  My roomie, who is another of the few hetero-
chicks in my department, doens't like sleeping in the same room as 
any of the lesbians that work with us.  

I'm guessing all this tolerance and acceptance stuff comes from how 
you were raised.  Or at least this is my theory.  My mom and dad 
always taught me to listen to other peoples ideas.  Learn new 
things.  Read the newspaper.  Read books.  Ask questions.  Don't be 
afraid to ask the "stupid" question.  Don't be afraid.  Stand up for 
what you believe.  Admit when you are wrong.  Say sorry.  Colour is 
something that makes pictures pretty.  Religion is having faith that 
everything will be ok, because there is something bigger than us out 
there taking care of things.

Is one belief more right than another?  Yes ... if it hurts other 
people maliciously ... Satanists offend me.  Severe Right-Wingers 
offend me .... do I think they are wrong?  well, yeah, but unless 
they are maliciously hurting others, they have as much right to 
worship whom they choose as I do.  In my world, every one has the 
right to love and be lvoed, everyone has the right to do what they 
wish, as long as it isn't hurting others.  It doesn't matter what 
your "religion" is, it doesn't matter what your "race" is, I don't 
care if you are a pygmy, albino, mutant satanist dwarf from Outer 
Mongolia ... if you aren't hurting people, you're cool :)

Ok, yeah, I'm done with my rambling for today.  

Michelle :)  <----who went to her very first Mardi Gras in New 
Orleans last weekend and only showed flesh 3 times (I'm rather proud 
of my restraint!!!)

p.s.  If you are a pygmy, albino, mutant satanist dwarf from Outer 
Mongolia, I apologize for using you as an example. :)




From jmmears at prodigy.net  Wed Feb 13 04:49:56 2002
From: jmmears at prodigy.net (serenadust)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 04:49:56 -0000
Subject: Facing The Challenge Web Site
In-Reply-To: <003801c1b407$427c55e0$3d3386d9@monica>
Message-ID: <a4cr9k+bshm@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "Kathryn" <kcawte at k...> wrote:
> I tried reading this I really did but I got to the bit where it 
says that the view that the books are about a struggle between good 
and evil is a bit naive and couldn't help wondering whether the 
author knows how many "professional" Christians (couldn't think of 
the word I wanted there) have expressed precisely that view, 
including, on more than one occasion, the Archbishop of Canterbury.
> 
> Also I wonder why it seems that the majority of these vehemently 
anti-everything not condoned by their particular brand of 
Christianity ignoramuses are American. We don't seem to get many 
here (UK), and none who really achieve any level of notoriety. It 
surprises me that the land of democracy and freeedom can breed such 
a number of religious bigots whereas here we tend just to point and 
laugh at such people?
> 

Having lived in the UK for a couple of years in the 90's, I think 
that the reason you see the majority of the "Christianity 
ignoramuses" (your term, and not a very *nice* one) being American 
is the fact that religious life and practice is generally quite 
different in the two countries. 
Weekly church attendance in the UK, even among people who identify 
themselves as members of a particular Christian faith is quite low 
(IICR on the order of 5%, or so).  In the US it is much higher (25% 
or so, if I remember correctly).  In general, it has always seemed 
to me that Americans tend to be a lot more passionate about 
everything, so it stands to reason that people for whom Christianity 
(whatever brand) is central to their lives will be more forceful in 
expressing their views (one person's evangelism is another's 
proselytism). A lot of this is just another example of style 
difference between the 2 nations. 
I am well aquainted with the British habit of assuming a superior, 
oh-so-sophisticated attitude when confronted with any number of 
American enthusiasms, including religious ones.  Personally, I've 
never found it at all charming, and would much rather live somewhere 
where one is able to care passionately about their spiritual life, 
than in a society where pointing and laughing at such people is the 
national sport.

Jo Serenadust, who actually enjoyed living in the UK very much, but 
refuses to buy into the notion that Euro-pseudo-sophisication is a 
superior approach to life




From jmmears at prodigy.net  Wed Feb 13 05:23:07 2002
From: jmmears at prodigy.net (serenadust)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 05:23:07 -0000
Subject: My SHIP is sinking...
In-Reply-To: <3C69E6BD.7CCE8634@kingwoodcable.com>
Message-ID: <a4ct7r+rhkg@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., Katze <jdumas at k...> wrote:
> First...I'm sending this to the OT list because I'm more talking 
about
> fanfics than I am canon. 
> 
> Up front, I'll tell you that I used to be a R/Hr shipper, and a
> Harry/?-not-Ginny shipper.
> 
> I dare say that my original idea of an Hr/R pairing is beginning to
> wane, and it's all due to the fanfics I've started to read. I'm now
> finding that I'm ever so slowly becoming a R/death-or-? shipper 
(which
> doesn't bode well for Ron's fate), Hr/H shipper, and even a D/G 
shipper
> (Draco will have to clean up his act first though). 
> 
> After reading various fanfics, I've found a very strange pattern 
occur
> is fics that end up H/Hr.  It seems that the impulse reaction is 
to pair
> Ron and Hermione, and Harry with either Ginny or x (I won't read 
fics
> where he's dead). What disturbs me is that Ron is either made to 
be the
> bad guy/bad husband, or he is killed off in order to make the
> Harry/Hermione happen. Why is this?
> 
 
I need to start by saying that I am mostly a non-shipper and try to 
stay out of the shipping wars, although I am not always sucessful <g>
I am, however, quite anti-H/Hr, which is not a very popular postion 
on this group, and I am a really huge Ron fan (also not popular).
My short foray into fanfiction last year was prompted by the long 
wait for book 5, and I thought it would be a fun way to kill time 
while waiting.  However, after reading many, many fics, I found that 
the most competent authors seemed to be actively attempting to 
undermine canon characterizations in order to promote a 
Harry/Hermione romantic relationship.  The only way they ever seem 
to be able to accomplish this is to either make Ron evil (absurd 
IMO), or to kill him off.  His existence seems to be a huge threat 
to the H/Hr fantasy, and this, I think, is the real reason that 
there are so many Ron haters here.  Personally, I don't read the 
stuff anymore since it was all so depressing, angsty, and not at all 
in the spirit of JKR.  I was probably naive to think that the 
authors were trying to preserve her vision, rather than impose their 
own. I've seen many, many posts where people have said that the 
characters presented in fanfics have changed the way they view the 
JKR characters, and I just find that sad. I'd rather have my visions 
and impressions of the characters (right or wrong) develop from 
careful reading of canon and discussion of same, than have 
it "tainted" by fanfic.  I'm afraid that people who are greatly 
invested in fanfics will be disappointed when the canon diverges 
from their chosen version of the Potterverse, and I just don't want 
to go there.

Jo Serenadust, expecting to be flamed big-time for heresy




From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Wed Feb 13 05:52:58 2002
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 05:52:58 -0000
Subject: ADMIN: A few ground rules for debating sensitive issues
Message-ID: <008801c1b452$b430cea0$2e3570c2@c5s910j>

~~ the Pocket Flame-o-scope was glowing, faintly red ~~

Hi everyone,

A quick reminder, verging on a plea, from Moderator HQ: -

- avoid making generalisations about religions, political ideas, cultural
groups or entire nations;
- don't state your opinion as 'the obvious truth;' remain open to (or
acknowledge) alternative positions;
- by the same token, don't imply that someone else is 'wrong' because they
hold a different view;
- be prepared to back up or explain opinions that may be challenged;
- listen to your second thoughts; read over your post before hitting send!

Thanks for your cooperation

Neil
for the Magical Moderator Team
______________
Flying Ford Anglia






From ameliagoldfeesh at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 13 07:16:42 2002
From: ameliagoldfeesh at yahoo.com (ameliagoldfeesh)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 07:16:42 -0000
Subject: Guthrie and SINKING Ships
Message-ID: <a4d3sq+lkpo@eGroups.com>

  -John Walton asked: "Does anyone else own the Tribute to Woody 
Guthrie CD?"

   I do.  However I bought it more for Bob Dylan being on it.:)  I 
really like Woody but I never heard much of Arlo's music other than 
"City of New Orleans" and once I heard a song about a man and his 
watermelon I believe- more of a talkin' song.

  -Katze asked: What disturbs me is that Ron is either made to be the 
bad guy/bad husband, or he is killed off in order to make the
Harry/Hermione happen. Why is this?

   I think Ron gets killed off or turns bad simply because many of
the H/Hr writers don't know what to do with him once H/Hr become a 
couple. As far as canon is concerned, up to this point (GoF), it
seems like Ron just might have jealousy issues with the pairing.  In
addition it would seem to mess up the equilibrium among the trio and 
many fanfic writers don't seem to have a good enough grasp on the
canon characters to extrapolate what the results could be.  (No offense
meant to any writers- I have no specific authors in mind.)
   I'm not really a shipper either- I don't care who ends up with who 
or if it even happens at all- I don't believe the series is going to 
turn into "As the Wizarding World Turns."  However, at least in GoF,
it seems JKR is laying groundwork for R/Hr so it makes it more 
difficult for the H/Hr people.
   
   -Jo Serenadust mentioned the danger of being influenced by 
fanfiction. 
   As far as being "tainted" by fanfiction I just try to be aware of 
the possibility and try to remind myself "constant vigilance!" :)  I 
don't usually read fanfiction about the younger characters
specifically except at Sugarquill-mostly because they have well
written and beta'd work plus I know I"m not going to run into slash or
student/teacher pairings (which generally isn't my thing.)  The adult 
characters I read are usually Snape or Lupin.  Besides if I get too 
worried about being tainted I go to HPfGUs or reread an HP book or 
four. (Though at HPfGUs I"ve nearly read enough volumes on LOLLIPOPS
to believe that it is canon.)  :)
 
     A Goldfeesh
      
     "But the funnies thing was
      When I was leavin' the bay
      I saw three ships a-sailin'
      They were all heading my way
      I asked the captain what his name was
      And how come he didn't drive a truck
      He said his name was Columbus
      I just said "Good luck."
           Bob Dylan's 115th Dream





From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Wed Feb 13 08:45:16 2002
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 08:45:16 -0000
Subject: Long life (was Facing The Challenge Web Site)
In-Reply-To: <20020212234444.19115.qmail@web9503.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <a4d92s+dem5@eGroups.com>

Andrew MacIan wrote:
> Greetings from Andrew!

Greetings (I always want to add 'take me to your leader' at this 
point).

> In this portion of what has been a surprisingly long
> life, 

How so? Were you attacked by an evil dark wizard in the cradle, or 
are you reflecting philosophically as you enter your 16th decade, 
like Dumbledore?  Or is it just another Vietnam reference?

David




From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Wed Feb 13 09:05:50 2002
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 09:05:50 -0000
Subject: Alice (was Circles and arrows)
In-Reply-To: <a4c9fs+ovf1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a4da9e+nr1m@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "moongirlk" <moongirlk at y...> wrote:
> Dave tried valiantly...
> > 
> > Sounds like Oliver Wood to me - but that was wiggly lines, wasn't 
> >it?
> 
> ...but my train of thought is too convoluted for him, or maybe he's 
> just never visited Alice's restaurant.
> 
Indeed not - I can't even work out from the references here what it 
*is* - book, record, what?

David, whose knowledge of music is formed almost entirely from the 
taste of those around him




From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Wed Feb 13 09:31:10 2002
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 09:31:10 -0000
Subject: ADMIN: A few ground rules for debating sensitive issues
In-Reply-To: <008801c1b452$b430cea0$2e3570c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <a4dbou+j7tc@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "Neil Ward" <neilward at d...> wrote:
> ~~ the Pocket Flame-o-scope was glowing, faintly red ~~
> 
> Hi everyone,
> 
> A quick reminder, verging on a plea, from Moderator HQ: -
> 
> - avoid making generalisations about religions, political ideas, 
cultural
> groups or entire nations;
> - don't state your opinion as 'the obvious truth;' remain open to 
(or
> acknowledge) alternative positions;
> - by the same token, don't imply that someone else is 'wrong' 
because they
> hold a different view;
> - be prepared to back up or explain opinions that may be challenged;
> - listen to your second thoughts; read over your post before 
hitting send!

Can I just elfishly add that all the above also applies to SHIPping 
positions.

David




From vheggie at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 13 10:55:57 2002
From: vheggie at yahoo.com (vheggie)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 10:55:57 -0000
Subject: Resemblence
In-Reply-To: <20020212235628.32993.qmail@web20407.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <a4dgnt+kkcg@eGroups.com>

I'm glad I've got an opportunity to share this with people who'll 
understand


I was attending a conference (history of magic
well, OK, science and 
medicine), and whilst I was signing in, a tall guy dressed in a long 
black overcoat came up and stood next to me.  He leaned down to the 
receptionist, and hissed through his LONG GREASY BLACK HAIR "The 
name's....Snape"

I nearly died.  I had to go and find a toilet to giggle in.
Although I never found out his real name, his initial was S, and I 
had to spend the rest of the conference trying not to snigger 
everytime I saw that little badge which read "Prof S Snape".

Poor guy.





From mafaldahopkirk at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 13 12:42:04 2002
From: mafaldahopkirk at yahoo.com (mafaldahopkirk)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 12:42:04 -0000
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <a4dmus+ejnm@eGroups.com>

Dear group members,

I am writing in complaint of the moderator's behavior towards the many
lists of HPFGU. There have been many rules and restrictions on certain
topics from George W. Bush to Richard Abanes. I feel that this makes 
the
lists lackluster because they don't have many controversial topics to
discuss for the fear of being kicked off.

Let me name a few of the moderator's problems:

Penny: She doesn't listen to anyone, despite the obvious OTness of
Shipping. Also runs the HPFGU list like a members only club, for that
new members are not respected, despite being more active posters than
any more established members.

Evidence of Penny's behaviour towards posters and her lack of 
including
the other moderators in the argument:
But, as long as I'm the List Owner, shipping posts that use canon will
*always* be on-topic. Rest assured, the shipping threads only last 
for a
short while & only come up every few mths or so. ? Penny Linsenmayer,
Saturday 15 December 2001

This was in response to a poster named Elizabeth Dalton, who had
complained about the OTness of the shipping. The said moderators were
discussing on the private Mod board about including her in their List
Elves until the said shipping discussion, in which Penny posted the
above ADMIN message on 15 December. They completely dumped Elizabeth 
as
an idea for List Elves because she didn't comply with Penny's views.

The said message from Elizabeth Dalton (31633) was deleted, so to
prevent the readers to form their opinion on the HPFGU-Ship.

John: Shoots his mouth off at every occasion, makes his own point on
posts instead of reading through the posts. Especially when the 
subjects
are sensitive to sexuality or Wicca. Same example from the post from
Elizabeth Dalton:

"Over on the Mods list, we have in the not-too-distant past discussed
whether to move shipping to OTChatter or its own list, and decided not
to, for the following reasons. (Oh, and Elizabeth, it is beneath you 
to
accuse Penny of imposing her own personal preferences on group policy,
as the decision was made by the entire Moderator Team. I would hope 
that
you will apologise to her for that unnecessary and immature comment.)"
-John Walton, Saturday 15 December 2001.

Why should she apologize for her own opinion? This is an example from
the not so recent Shipping wars, and this was immature on John's 
behalf
that he totally shot her down.

The management is totally opaque i.e. the list is run according
to Penny's masterplan, with no apparent thought for the other 3700 odd
members. All new list management is selected by old, so only people 
who
fit their view on things are accepted. Therefore, there is a vapid
principality amongst the moderators, with no differing opinions on
things. This in turn, makes the HPFGU list incredibly boring and
unimaginative, no wonder why most of the people aren't speaking, for
fear that even the name Mundungus Fletcher would get them kicked off.

When the management discuss (in private) who to select as new elves, 
they base their decision on who is the most responsible and most 
levelheaded of the people they are considering. Yet two of the 
moderators, John and Penny, are anything but responsible and 
levelheaded.

In other words, John Walton and Penny Linsenmayer fall below the
standards they themselves set for list management. They also seem to
select underlings which are the least likely to disagree on the way 
they run things.

There is a culture on the OT list where free discussion is discouraged
if the topic is considered controversial, merely because some members
feel the need to rant at such topics (John, for example). It is
not the subjects that are the problem, but the members who cannot 
argue reasonably. Members who make
the list unpleasant should be warned, not the subjects under 
discussion
banned (this is all about the OT board, obviously, not the mainlist).
Such as the recent discussion of Richard Abanes (in which John BROUGHT
up, even when he knew that the mods had a rule of the topic banned,
which the authoritarian Penny brought up). Already there are new 
members
asking who Richard Abanes is and they should have the right to know 
who
he is, so I recommend restarting the topic of Richard Abanes because 
he
pertains to the world of the Harry Potter books. Even though he is 
very
very against Harry Potter in general, he is indelibly linked to Harry
Potter because of his fundamentalist christian views. Therefore Abanes
is on topic for the OT-Chatter list and discussion is restarted on him
on the said list, with or without the moderator's/moderators' consent,
because there are new members who would like to know who he is and 
what
books he writes even though I know there are people offended by him 
but
there is an interesting side to him.

The Moderators are representative of Penny's views, not the views of 
the
nearly 4,000 strong membership. In short, John and Penny are
inappropriate as moderators. Unfortunately nothing will ever change,
because they have assembled a team of underlings who will only support
them and e-mails such as mine will be condemned and swept away.

Thank you,

Mafalda Hopkirk






From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Wed Feb 13 12:50:54 2002
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (lupinesque)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 12:50:54 -0000
Subject: Alice, institutions, Woody
In-Reply-To: <a4da9e+nr1m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a4dnfe+ai7u@eGroups.com>

Kimberly wrote:

> > ...but my train of thought is too convoluted for him, or maybe 
he's 
> > just never visited Alice's restaurant.

David wrote:

> Indeed not - I can't even work out from the references here what it 
> *is* - book, record, what?

Record by Arlo Guthrie, recounting in hilarious and convoluted detail 
how he escaped the draft, and mostly spoken, save for the refrain, 
whose immortal line Pippin already quoted:  "You can get anything you 
want at Alice's Restaurant (excepting Alice)."  As for really being 
able to visit, there is an Alice but I don't recall whether her 
restaurant still exists.

To come full circle (har har), Arlo is founding a church, in the 
Berkshires IIRC (Massachusetts mountains that are the locale of 
Alice's Restaurant), or some kind of spirituality center, for Aging 
Boomers Who've Decided to Give Religion a Go.

Kimberly wrote:

>I prefer the term faith to religion. (look out, tangent coming!) 
> Religion implies an institution of some sort,

I think institutions get an unfairly bad rap.  (Though I'm moved to 
contradict myself by quoting Gloria Steinem:  "I have no objection to 
the institution of marriage.  I just don't want to live in an 
institution.")  Yes, they can rigidify like arteries on 3 eggs a day, 
with results that are just as dangerous, but they can also be the way 
principles get put into practice.  They lend permanence and stability 
to any effort, which sure comes in useful when that effort is 
essentially revolutionary and difficult to maintain, e.g. the U.S. 
Supreme Court is an institution maintaining the crazy, high-flying 
hopes of the Constitution.  

At their best, institutions are simply human beings organizing 
themselves to get done what they could not do alone or in a short span 
of time.  I'm extremely grateful that the founders of my 
faith/religion created institutions to pass on their insights and 
didn't just leave future generations to start from scratch.

Re: Woody Guthrie tribute, check out the WG/Leadbelly Folkways album 
from about 12 years back.  (Bob's on it too, singing "Pretty Boy 
Floyd.")

Amy

As through the world I've rambled, 
I've seen lots of funny men 
Some will rob you with a six-gun,
and some with a fountain pen.
                 --Woody Guthrie, "Pretty Boy Floyd"

The gambling man is rich and the working man is poor.
                 --Woody Guthrie, "I Ain't Got No Home"




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Wed Feb 13 12:56:55 2002
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (lupinesque)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 12:56:55 -0000
Subject: ADMIN: A few ground rules for debating sensitive issues
In-Reply-To: <a4dbou+j7tc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a4dnqn+qlo2@eGroups.com>

Neil wrote:

> > A quick reminder, verging on a plea, from Moderator HQ: -
> > 
> > - avoid making generalisations about religions, political ideas, 
> cultural
> > groups or entire nations;
> > - don't state your opinion as 'the obvious truth;' remain open to 
> (or
> > acknowledge) alternative positions;
> > - by the same token, don't imply that someone else is 'wrong' 
> because they
> > hold a different view;
> > - be prepared to back up or explain opinions that may be 
challenged;
> > - listen to your second thoughts; read over your post before 
> hitting send!

David elfishly added:

> Can I just elfishly add that all the above also applies to SHIPping 
> positions.

Amy selfishly added:

. . . and to "who's better, Snape or Sirius."

. . . and to _________________ (your pet Sensitive Topic here).

In fact, our esteemed Mechanimagus has delivered the formula for world 
peace.

Amy
who would like to exempt Lupin.  "Lupin is an angel sent from 
heaven and his very flaws are evidence of his perfection" is an 
undebatable statement




From tabouli at unite.com.au  Wed Feb 13 13:00:39 2002
From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 00:00:39 +1100
Subject: The Eurasian Look
Message-ID: <004401c1b48e$e15cde00$371cddcb@price>

WARNING: Exhaustive discussion of more than you ever wanted to know about the inheritance of Eurasian features follows...

Kimberly:
> I recently read a junky novel in which a girl with a Japanese mother 
and a red-headed Irish-American father had no discernable Asian 
physical characteristics - she had rosey cheeks and curly copper-red 
hair and her father's eyes too.  It really interfered with my ability 
to suspend disbelief because it seemed nearly impossible.  So please, 
Tabouli, in your Eurasian wisdom - was this a cheap trick for the 
sake of the story, or is that plausible?<

Ahaaa!!  My my, an interesting batch of OT posts today - religious debates *and* human-genetics-as-they-apply-to-looks (a pet topic of mine.  My love of colour and hair united)!  As some of you may recall, you have here the listmember who once researched the inheritance of human eye colour to see what sort of man she would need to produce a child with green eyes... (NOTE: I did grow out of that stage and move onto much more Mature and Profound methods of partner selection eventually!)

In my long Quest for a Eurasian Identity, I actually did a science project on this very topic when I was 14.  Yea, I went around to all the half-Chinese half-Caucasian people I knew (and I knew lots, at the time, having mostly grown up in the Australian Chinese community), scrutinised them, and interviewed them about the colouring and physical features of their parents.  I can't remember all of my findings, but IIRC, they included the following:

- Nose shape tends to be inherited... er, help me, geneticists... heterozygously?  That is, the child's nose tends to fall somewhere between the shapes of his/her parents' noses.  Chinese noses are typically small, and, in Southern China, tend to have little or no "bridge".  Hence my nose and my brother's nose are a compromise between my father's long thin high-bridged Caucasian model, and my mother's flat-bridged, widish model.

- Mouth shape is similar, but less clear - you do get Eurasians with a distinctly Chinese or Caucasian mouth shape.

- Chinese eye shape seems heterozygous to dominant.  You can usually detect a Chinese shape to the eyes somewhere.  A lot of Eurasians look like slightly pinkish Chinese people with dark brown hair and Chinese shaped eyes, but not all.  Both my brother and I are rarely taken for Eurasian because our eyes are large (and sort of brown to greenish hazel), and people associate Chinese blood with small, dark, slanty eyes.  However, our mother has quite large eyes herself and definitely looks Chinese...!  Mine are a bit almondy if you know where to look, but my brother's really are quite round (add the heavy brows and runaway five o' clock shadow he's inherited from my father and *no-one* would ever guess he has a Chinese mother.  He looks Italian).

- The Chinese "epicanthal fold" (i.e. a fold of skin concealing the upper eyelid, thought to be for insulating the eye against icy Mongolian winds) seems to be dominant.  That is, if the Chinese parent has it, so will the Eurasian child.  My mother doesn't have one, neither do I (I have quite heavy lids, hence flattering comparisons of myself to Mrs Lestrange, with her sexy hooded eyes).

- There seem to be two distinct skin types in Eurasians: the first, and more common, is a sort of yellowish olive colour, often (strangely enough) darker in tone than the Chinese parent.  The second type (maybe 30%?) is pale with freckles.  Not sure what's going on here... could be something to do with the part of China the Chinese parent originates from, as the Northern Chinese sometimes have freckles.  I have the first type of skin, and my skin is indeed somewhat darker than my mother's.

- Eye colour, like nose shape, seems to be heterozygous with a multigene twist (geneticists??).  If the Caucasian parent has brown eyes, the child will often appear to have pure "Chinese" eyes (very dark to medium brown, epicanthal fold, etc.).  If the Caucasian parent has green eyes, like my father, the child's eyes will be medium brown to greenish hazel.  If the Caucasian parent has blue or grey eyes, the child's eyes could be anywhere from medium brown to, possibly, green (I don't think I've seen a Eurasian with pure green eyes myself, but I think it should be possible).

- Hair colour and texture: Curly/wavy hair mostly seems to be recessive to heteozygous.  The great majority of Eurasians have straight, very dark brown hair, though if the Caucasian had tight ringlets you might get some waves in there.  If the Caucasian parent's hair is straight and dark, the Eurasian child's hair might be black; if the Caucasian parent's hair is blond, it might be medium to light brown.  Interestingly, Eurasian hair is often reddish.  This is because (said my trusty genetics book) about 70% of Mongoloids actually have the pigment responsible for red hair, it just doesn't show because their hair is so dark.  Dilute with some Caucasian blood, and it shows up.

I should mention that a lot of the Chinese seem convinced that "the man's blood is stronger", and therefore children with a Caucasian father will look more Caucasian and vice versa.  My inner feminist gets irritated by this view (oh come on, I mutter, basic genetics, 50% from the mother, 50% from the father), but she's even more irritated to note that it seems, to a degree, to hold.  How can this be?

Note that I confined my study to Chinese Mongoloids.  There are definitely differences between different strains of "Asian" blood.  Sub-continental blood seems incredibly tenacious... I knew a pair of siblings with only one Indian grandparent (the rest white) who still looked very Indian indeed, albeit a little lighter in skin, and someone who was half white, a quarter Chinese and a quarter Indian who looked like a fair, slightly yellowish Indian.  Japanese skin tends to be fairer and more freckle-prone than Chinese skin, and I have also met two or three Japanese people with naturally ringletty hair (I took some convincing, but apparently so).  To cap things off in the odd stakes, my parents know this couple where the husband is a very blond, blue-eyed Dutchman, and the wife is a Filipina.  All three of their children came out blond!  The wife was chagrined.  "I keep hoping that at last I'll get my raven-haired beauty, but I keep getting golden-haired beauties instead!"  Two of them did darken to medium brown later, but all the same, I think it must be the Spanish blood in the Filipino population at work.

So (says Tabouli to her by now very small audience), to answer Kimberly's question, I think the junky novelist is pushing it a bit.  By my calculations, the child would probably have, at the most Caucasian, wavy reddish brown hair, light pinkish olive skin, hazel to green and somewhat olive-y shaped eyes, and somewhere between a dainty, bridgeless Japanese nose and a large, bridged Irish nose.  The only save for the writer is the fair-skinned, natural Japanese curls/surprise Caucasian ancestor and generations of red-haired blue-eyed Irish escape clause (a la Dutch-Filipina couple).  Perhaps the Japanese wife had fair skin and both natural curls and a dash of "white blood" somewhere in her ancestry, and the Irish husband was from such potently pure red-curls and blue eyes stock, their daughter miraculously fluked a very Caucasian appearance, conveniently enough for the plot...

Tabouli.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From saitaina at wizzards.net  Wed Feb 13 12:56:57 2002
From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 04:56:57 -0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] (unknown)
References: <a4dmus+ejnm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <001401c1b48d$ecb11060$214e28d1@oemcomputer>

Excuse me, but if you have a problem with the mods...maybe you shouldn't be
a member of the list.  Yes they have strict rules and yes they occasionally
jump all over members but they are good people and good list moderators.

Mafalda Hopkirk-<no wonder why most of the people aren't speaking, for
fear that even the name Mundungus Fletcher would get them kicked off.>

Most members do not speak for we have no need to.  I read the posts, nod in
agreement and refrain from commenting due to it having no purpose other then
to say "I agree".  Should I find a post I wish to  comment on I do so.  It
is not fear that keeps me silent but no words to say.

Mafalda Hopkirk-<Yet two of the
moderators, John and Penny, are anything but responsible and
levelheaded.>

First I will speak out as a friend, John is a sweet man who has shown me in
my one year of knowing him that he is very responsible and levelheaded.
Sure he gets passionate about things but we all do.  It's what makes us
human.  I have never seen him fly off the handle unlike some moderators I
have met and I respect him both as a friend and someone in charge.

Now I will speak as a list member.  I don't know Penny that much, but that's
because I haven't gotten to know her but in all that I have seen her she has
never once given me cause to doubt her skills as a moderator here.  I have
always and will always respect her in that capacity as I find no reason not
to.

Mafalda Hopkirk-<There is a culture on the OT list where free discussion is
discouraged
if the topic is considered controversial, merely because some members
feel the need to rant at such topics >

I as a list member, applaud the need to keep controversial topics off the
list.  IT lead no where.  I have seen the fights and licked the wounds of
the war and refuse to be a part of it again.  Religious/Politics/What have
you is a fight that has no winners and only losers and It's tiring to see it
on the list.  My point of view is mine and yours is yours.  I do not need to
see 500+ posts of why your point of view is the right one when I'm never
going to move to your side and agree.  I will not stand by and watch this
list be torn asunder by someone who wishes to preach 'the right way'.  I
reuse.

Mafalda Hopkirk-<Therefore Abanes
is on topic for the OT-Chatter list and discussion is restarted on him
on the said list, with or without the moderator's/moderators' consent,
because there are new members who would like to know who he is and
what
books he writes even though I know there are people offended by him
but
there is an interesting side to him.>

NO, he should not.  I state again I will not watch either list be torn apart
due to this man and his views.  He may be linked with Harry Potter now but
the gods help me if I support his mission by even mentioning his name.  And
I shall end this paragraph here as I'm shaking with anger all ready.

Mafalda Hopkirk-<The Moderators are representative of Penny's views, not the
views of
the
nearly 4,000 strong membership. In short, John and Penny are
inappropriate as moderators. Unfortunately nothing will ever change,
because they have assembled a team of underlings who will only support
them and e-mails such as mine will be condemned and swept away.>

You do realize there are five moderators, seven (approximately) List Elves
and Seven (again, approximately) poltergeists.  Two moderator's being
inappropriate is not something to rant about considering the level of
leadership.  If you have a problem with all of those in power, then I
suggest bringing it up but personal grudges should be aired privately, not
to the list.

The Mod Squad has been wonderful in keeping this list a place I am happy to
be a member of and I thank them a great deal.  I do not see it as a
representative of Penny's views but as a mesh the best they could of the
members.  John and Penny have both been kind and fair in my opinion and I
see none of the issues you have brought up such as irresponsibility,
dictatorship (Penny) and other ill mannerisms.

I say again, as before, if you don't like the leadership, don't remain a
member.  No it probably won't change when a great many of us are happy with
it and while that's sad, it's the way the world runs.

Saitaina
Speaking on behalf of herself and most likely going to be yelled at by
someone
*****
Also Doing: Reading Fanfiction/role-playing
Last Movie Seen: Harry Potter and the Sorcer's Stone (3rd time)
Last TV Show Seen: "Olympics"
Current Book-"The Lunatic Cafe"




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Wed Feb 13 13:10:17 2002
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (lupinesque)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 13:10:17 -0000
Subject: ADMIN: Onlist complaints and personal attacks
In-Reply-To: <a4dmus+ejnm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a4dojp+fg3t@eGroups.com>

Amy the Mere Underling here.

Needless to say, "discussion" of the personal qualities of any 
listmember will not be allowed on the list.  Please do not respond to 
the post.

If anyone has a disagreement with a Moderator decision, please take it 
up with the Moderators by writing to MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com (goes 
to Moderators only:  Neil, John, Penny, Amy, Catherine, Kelley, Cindy) 
or hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com (goes to Mods, Elves, and 
Poltergeists).  We are open to reconsidering any decision, including 
the status of banned topics.  However, a list of 3700 members is not 
the place to debate policy.  Those who have been on lists where such 
policy discussions take up 50% of the bandwidth will understand the 
reason.

Thanks,

Amy
Magical Moderator Team




From mieneke.pallada at 12move.nl  Wed Feb 13 14:11:35 2002
From: mieneke.pallada at 12move.nl (Mieneke Pallada)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 15:11:35 +0100
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] (unknown)
References: <a4dmus+ejnm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <012901c1b498$8af00920$878897c2@nl>

First of, let me say to each his or her own opinion and I respect these opinions, but this is so blatantly unfair, I couldn't keep quiet:

On 13-2-2002 mafaldahopkirk wrote:
'Dear group members,

I am writing in complaint of the moderator's behavior towards the many lists of HPFGU. There have been many rules and restrictions on certain topics from George W. Bush to Richard Abanes. I feel that this makes the lists lackluster because they don't have many controversial topics to discuss for the fear of being kicked off.'
 
In the four months I've been around the HPFGU-lists I have found them anything but lackluster, the topics ranged from deeply serious to quite silly (in a good way), and from awesomely philosophical to fantastical literary discussions. And (correct me I've I'm wrong here, fellow newbies) from most reactions on-list, most new list members find it to be so. 

'Let me name a few of the moderator's problems:

Penny: She doesn't listen to anyone, despite the obvious OTness of Shipping. Also runs the HPFGU list like a members only club, for that new members are not respected, despite being more active posters than any more established members.'

New list members are respected and (speaking from experience) are always welcomed. I've even seen Penny chide older list members for coming down too hard on newbies and telling them to be nice. So to say she doesn't listen and disrecpects them is quite unfair.

[snip examples]

'The said moderators were discussing on the private Mod board about including her in their List Elves until the said shipping discussion, in which Penny posted the above ADMIN message on 15 December. They completely dumped Elizabeth as an idea for List Elves because she didn't comply with Penny's views.'

If these discussions are private, how do you know this? Unless you are a Mod or a List Elf, you are not privy to these discussions, so I find this argument debatable.

'John: Shoots his mouth off at every occasion, makes his own point on posts instead of reading through the posts. Especially when the subjects are sensitive to sexuality or Wicca.'

Firstly, of course he makes his own points on posts, they're his opinions aren't they. It isn't the Mods job to read through posts, a 'normal' list member wouldn't either, so they have to keep that in mind and filter out any potential misunderstandings. Secondly, I've never know John to be unfair or really harsh, and the occassions he really reacts strongly are on topics (sexuality and religion) which are near to his heart and important to him personally. This I'm reading from his posts, I mean I don't know John personally. But wouldn't you react strongly when people raise points on things which are VERY important to you? I think you would, your post of today is a good example.

[snip example]

Still regarding the incident with Elizabeth; no she shouldn't apologise for having an opinion, but when that opinion is hurtful to someone  personally and not the Mods in general, then it is unfair to vent that opinion in public. The least Elizabeth could have done is leave the personal remarks out or to have sent them to Penny off-list.

'The management is totally opaque i.e. the list is run according to Penny's masterplan, with no apparent thought for the other 3700 odd members. All new list management is selected by old, so only people who fit their view on things are accepted. Therefore, there is a vapid
principality amongst the moderators, with no differing opinions on things. This in turn, makes the HPFGU list incredibly boring and unimaginative, no wonder why most of the people aren't speaking, for fear that even the name Mundungus Fletcher would get them kicked off.'

Who says it's Penny's masterplan and not the Mods masterplan? Of course tho old management selects the new. They know what gives, they know the investments of time and effort it takes (and believe that it takes a lot) and they know what kinds of people it takes. This is the way it works in most places. And if, as a result you find the list boring and unaccommodating, well they didn't force to become a member and they won't force you to stay one. 

'When the management discuss (in private) who to select as new elves, they base their decision on who is the most responsible and most levelheaded of the people they are considering. Yet two of the moderators, John and Penny, are anything but responsible and levelheaded.

In other words, John Walton and Penny Linsenmayer fall below the standards they themselves set for list management. They also seem to select underlings which are the least likely to disagree on the way they run things.'

Why do you attack Penny and John so vehemently? First of all there are seven Mods not just two, why do you hold Penny and John personally responsible? This is totally unfair and uncalled for.

[Snip discussion of ways to handle management and forbidden topics]

'Such as the recent discussion of Richard Abanes (in which John BROUGHT up, even when he knew that the mods had a rule of the topic banned, which the authoritarian Penny brought up). Already there are new members asking who Richard Abanes is and they should have the right to know 
who he is, so I recommend restarting the topic of Richard Abanes because he pertains to the world of the Harry Potter books. Even though he is very very against Harry Potter in general, he is indelibly linked to Harry
Potter because of his fundamentalist christian views.'

John said it was banned when he wrote it and explianed he used it as a comparison, not to start a new discussion on the topic AND he apologised for using the comparison. If new members really want to know about Abanes they can check the archives or mail the Mods or their personal List Elf off-list. It does not have to be handled on-list.

[Snip further Abanes discussion]

'The Moderators are representative of Penny's views, not the views of the nearly 4,000 strong membership. In short, John and Penny are inappropriate as moderators. Unfortunately nothing will ever change, because they have assembled a team of underlings who will only support
them and e-mails such as mine will be condemned and swept away.

Thank you,

Mafalda Hopkirk'

I am really sorry you feel this way, but once again if you are not happy in this community, you are free to leave. And I really have a problem with your personal crusade against Penny and John. They devote a lot of their time and energy to this list and our enjoyment (or in your case non-enjoyment) of it. Without them there probably even wouldn't BE a list.
You are entitled to your opinion, sure, but I think there are no list members who would agree with such vehement personal critism.

To Penny and John: Thanks for all your hard work. I'm enjoying myself tremendously round here and that is also thanks to you and the other Mods. You guys get way to little credit for that. Thanks again.

Mieneke (Who now really needs a cup of coffee!)





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From mieneke.pallada at 12move.nl  Wed Feb 13 14:20:35 2002
From: mieneke.pallada at 12move.nl (Mieneke Pallada)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 15:20:35 +0100
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] ADMIN: Onlist complaints and personal attacks
References: <a4dojp+fg3t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <013001c1b499$9b4a0540$878897c2@nl>

Amy the Mere Underling here.

Needless to say, "discussion" of the personal qualities of any 
listmember will not be allowed on the list.  Please do not respond to 
the post.

If anyone has a disagreement with a Moderator decision, please take it 
up with the Moderators by writing to MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com (goes 
to Moderators only:  Neil, John, Penny, Amy, Catherine, Kelley, Cindy) 
or hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com (goes to Mods, Elves, and 
Poltergeists).  We are open to reconsidering any decision, including 
the status of banned topics.  However, a list of 3700 members is not 
the place to debate policy.  Those who have been on lists where such 
policy discussions take up 50% of the bandwidth will understand the 
reason.

Thanks,

Amy
Magical Moderator Team

Dear Amy and mods,

I am sorry, when I finished writing and sending my reply, lo and behold I receive this message. So I'm sorry, but I saw it too late and I couldn't undo it anymore.
*bows head in shame, peeking up hopefully for forgiveness*
I shan't do it anymore, sirs! ;-))

Mieneke (See Saitana, we got a talking to, but at least we were together!)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From macloudt at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Feb 13 14:32:31 2002
From: macloudt at yahoo.co.uk (macloudt)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 14:32:31 -0000
Subject: Circles and arrows
In-Reply-To: <a4c9fs+ovf1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a4dtdv+kg01@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "moongirlk" <moongirlk at y...> wrote:

> I prefer the term faith to religion.  (look out, tangent coming!)

Tangent?  Only from the One-True-Faithers, I would think.  I would 
think (hope) that all we listies are open-minded enough not to jump 
on *that* bandwagon.
 
Despite the fact that I find this thread fascinating, and have a 
degree in sociology and cultural anthropology, I'm staying out of the 
thick of it because I was up far too late watching the Olympics and 
my edit function is not working.  However...

...when I was studying in Toronto I learned that under Canadian law 
the difference between a "religion" and a "cult" is that a religion 
is recognized by the Canadian Federal government, while a cult is 
not.  One spin-off of this legislation is that members of any 
religion have the right to, say, take paid time off work to celebrate 
their high/holy days, while occult members have no such right as 
their beliefs are not recognized.  I can remember the case of a 
college staff member, a Wicca, who tried to sue the college for not 
recognizing his beliefs and giving him is holy days as paid 
holidays.  He lost.

Anyway...I'm rambling again...all I want to know is, does a similar 
law exist in other countries?  Or do other countries distinguish 
between religions and occults in other ways, if at all?

Thanks for listening :)

Mary Ann
(who finds the fact that a "far-out, freakish, eeeevil occult" could 
suddenly be converted into a "respectable religion" by bored civil 
servants in Ottawa both amusing and disconcerting)





From blpurdom at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 13 14:57:17 2002
From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 14:57:17 -0000
Subject: Circles and arrows
In-Reply-To: <a4dtdv+kg01@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a4dusd+hdcd@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "macloudt" <macloudt at y...> wrote:
> ....all I want to know is, does a similar law exist in other 
> countries?  Or do other countries distinguish between religions 
> and occults in other ways, if at all?

You do know about the Jedi thing in the UK, don't you?  On a recent 
census, a tremendous number of people wrote "Jedi" or "Jedi knight" 
on their census forms for the name of the religion to which they 
subscribe.  Subsequently, conflicting reports emerged from the UK as 
to whether "Jedi" was to be an officially-recognized religion by the 
British government!  My husband and I were really cracking up over 
this...Does anyone know whether a final decision was reached?

--Barb
 





From vheggie at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 13 15:19:14 2002
From: vheggie at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Vanessa=20Heggie?=)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 15:19:14 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Jedi
In-Reply-To: <1013611859.1088.1690.m12@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20020213151914.2148.qmail@web20003.mail.yahoo.com>

Jedi got a code for the UK census because so many
people put it on their forms, but it didn't get
recognistion (it takes more than a census return to
have a religion officially recognised).

see here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_1589000/1589133.stm

and here:
http://www.snopes2.com/religion/jedi.htm

(cut 'n' paste if the links are wrapped)

Vanessa
(mental note to self: must put name on this now Yahoo!
won't adjust my profile properly, can't have you all
referring to me as vheggie)  

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Everything you'll ever need on one web page
from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
http://uk.my.yahoo.com



From tabouli at unite.com.au  Wed Feb 13 15:24:18 2002
From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 02:24:18 +1100
Subject: Controversial topics like religion
Message-ID: <005f01c1b4a2$c69a7f00$371cddcb@price>

Phew.

Just took a peek at the last few OT posts on the website after posting my wafflesome musings on Eurasian looks, and things are looking stormy.  Hmmm.  Not sure whether my comments on religion are going to be petrol on the fire or oil on troubled waters, but I'll tiptoe in anyway...

Before I say anything on religion, let me admit upfront that I haven't read the "Facing the Challenge" essay.  I will eventually, but I don't think reading it is crucial to my comments here.  I've read lots of Christian commentary on HP, and have established, pretty much, what this essay says from other people's posts.  About the only thing I have to say for which this could be considered a prerequisite is this: I confess to a faint wince on Chris Holloway's behalf.  I suspect the poor guy meant well: he wasn't to know what he was unleashing... (assuming Chris is male - ah, the perils of unisex names!)

OK.  Back to a touch of long-winded Tabouli's thesis-land.  One of the more daring things I argued in my thesis was that we should restore the word "ethnocentrism" to its original meaning and normalise it.  That is, ethnocentrism is *not* a synonym for "racism", or even "xenophobic patriotism", it means:

".this view of things in which one's own group is the center of everything, and all others are scaled and rated with reference to it" (Sumner 1906, yes, I'm even putting in a reference here!)

...and is absolutely *NORMAL*.  Ethnocentrism is not "bad" by definition.  It is the perfectly obvious and natural outcome of being raised in a consistent culture with little intimate contact with other cultures, particularly if that culture is also the dominant majority culture.  Our own cultural group gives us a set of cultural values, which tell us what is right and wrong, moral and immoral, polite and offensive, reasonable and unreasonable, beautiful and ugly, etc.etc.etc.  People **NEED** cultural values like these to function socially.

The reason why people get culture shock when they go to a very different culture is because their rulebook of social behaviour suddenly and terrifyingly ceases to function.  They have been plunged into a world where what they've always known to be "moral" is generally believed to be "immoral" or even "irrelevant", where normal, "polite" behaviour inexplicably seems to cause offence, where they can't tell what people are thinking from their comments and behaviour any more.  This is so distressing and disorienting that a lot of people either cocoon themselves in people who share their rulebook or flee back to their own country.  People *need* cultural values to function and "read" their social world.  When they can't read their social world any more it can trigger serious mental and/or physical illness.

The point is, when you have been raised with a strong, stable, unchallenged set of values (be they Christian or Buddhist or Wiccan or spiritualist or whatever), in a family and social circle (and indeed, society) who mostly share those values and have applied them to good effect, of *course* you're going to believe they're Right and Moral and Good!  Of course you're going to use them as the reference point from which to judge any other sets of values you encounter!  What else are you going to do?  People *need* cultural values, as I said above, and unless something strong enough to shake 'em happens (e.g. religious conversion, powerful cross-cultural experience, etc.), will use the values they grew up with as a rulebook.

(I suspect that one of the reasons why religious converts are notoriously fervent is the very fact that they are trying to reject  the values with which they grew up for another set.  Hence the need for very emphatic belief and behaviour to try and "lock them in").

Then along came individualism, teaching us that we're free to believe our own beliefs, choose our own actions and live our own lives, and should accord other people the same freedom, even if their beliefs/actions/lives violate some of our most deeply held rules.  Not easy.  When you believe that your rulebook defines what is *right*, you can't help feeling that anyone who violates its tenets is *wrong* and will have bad results, no matter what you know you're supposed to feel or say to the contrary.  Hence the bad press of "political correctness" in the individualist world... people mouthing freedom of choice platitudes to toe the politically acceptable line when millimetres below the surface they *know* that Islam/paganism/homosexuality/etc. is *Wrong*.

I have little time for skin-deep political correctness with no understanding (and besides, these days I can spot an ethnocentric value judgment miles away, hidden beneath a politically correct veil or no).  As someone whose job is to increase awareness and understanding, I'd much rather hear what people *really* think, offensive or no, so that it can be explored and worked with (not necessarily on this mailing list, I hasten to add, but on the job).  Political correctness is a real nuisance for me when I'm doing needs analysis interviews.  People are so afraid and on the defensive they're scared to make *any* comments about *any* group.  I try to ask them about any difficult cross-cultural encounters they've had, and they're convinced that I'm about to turn them in to Equal Opportunity.  Then, once they're reassured that I won't, they're afraid to mention the apparent cultural background of the person in question, because this is "racist".  AARRRGHHH!!

I then have to gently, carefully explain that in order to provide them with an interpretation of what may have happened cross-culturally, it is truly very helpful to know what culture they were dealing with, so that I can figure out what clash of values was responsible!  I usually get the information I need out of them in the end, and it's amazing how easily hardened prejudices can dissolve when they realise the "rude" behaviour of the person concerned stemmed from a simple difference in cultural rules (for example, in India, you don't usually say "thank you" to someone for doing a job they are paid for, like a shop assistant.  In Australia you do.  "Those Indians think I'm some sort of servant!  I'm sorry, culture is no excuse for rudeness, they can't even say thank you... how much does that cost them?  It's just common courtesy." etc.etc...)

Going back to the OT religious flame-skirmish (casting off the cross-cultural psychology mantle for a more perilous fire-proof suit), I think we have a bit of a dominant majority culture issue on our hands.  From all I've gathered, most OT listmembers are from countries where the dominant majority are English speaking WASPy types, right?  UK, USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand?  Makes perfect sense on a list centred around an English series of books.

(Tabouli retreats into her concrete bunker once more, and continues her over the PA system)

It's therefore reasonable to assume that a lot of listmembers are members of this dominant majority (perhaps overt believers in the Christian faith, perhaps only sharing Christian-type rules by osmosis from society).  Lucky types, they, growing up in a country where the State and institutions largely agree that their rulebook is the definitive one.  For those who grew up in predominantly WASP circles themselves, where their version of WASPy rules were applied to mostly good effect, and without any major contradictory experiences which lead them to question them, it would be quite natural and quite blameless for them to assume that their rulebook defines what is Right.  Why wouldn't they?  After all, those rules worked perfectly well for them, and everyone they know, are supported by the education system, the media, the church, the government... surely they *must* be Right, and therefore people who violate the rules are Wrong.

However.

Sooner or later, most people raised in the security of a dominant majority culture will run into some situation which challenges their rulebook.  Certainly they'd find it all but impossible to avoid the individualism "freedom of lifestyle" message these days.  It could be discovering that their daughter is gay, or forming a close friendship with someone from a minority ethnic group or religion, or meeting people who violate some of their rules in some other way yet seem to be perfectly reasonable, "good" people, or living overseas for a couple of years.  Depending on the strength and circumstances of that challenge, it might change the way they view the rules, and which ones they endorse, and might lead them to delete or replace some.

People who weren't raised in a dominant majority culture, or who adopt a lifestyle outside it (by choice or by obligation) don't have that security.  By definition their rulebooks contain material that runs contrary to what the dominant culture says is Right.  What do they do?  Some try to edit their rulebook to make it as much like the dominant one as they can, like the black children who reject black dolls and want white dolls and playmates because they've received the message that "white is better" (at as young as 3!).  Some fight to have their own, violating rules accepted as of equal value as those the dominant culture decrees to be Right.  An uphill battle, since the secure dominant majority have the power and not much incentive to validate rules which violate their own - they have the upper hand, they define what's Right... why let dangerous Wrongness pollute *their* society?  When the right circumstances arise and some of the dominant culture members come on-side social change can gain ground (as it has with environmentalism, feminism, etc.), but it's not easy.

To get personal here, this is the context into which I'd put John's "touchiness" about Wicca and homosexuality.  Both of these violate some rules in the standard WASP rulebook, namely those gleaned from the Bible which warn against "man lying with man" and "witchcraft".  Sure, lots of WASPs reject those rules to a lesser or greater degree (many on this list do, and I mentioned my devoutly Catholic practising homosexual friend), and interpretations of the Biblical passages can be fought over, but I think the rules are there, like 'em or not.  For those who belong to the WASP dominant culture and endorse these rules to any degree, there's likely to be some discomfort, voiced or not, about a religion and "lifestyle" that violate them, and also that instinctive feeling that their rulebook is Right and therefore that which violates its tenets is Wrong and potentially dangerous.  Individualism may stop them from declaring this too emphatically, or trying to bring others around to their view, but the feeling lingers.  (Another example of this is the Jewish take on the celebration of Christmas debate a while back).

Now I'll toss aside any attempt at sweeping theoretical comments and head for IMHO...

...homophobia really bothers me.  If you accept that homosexuality is either genetic or the product of early socialisation (as growing evidence suggests), and know that the dominant culture rulebook sees it as a violation of a very touchy rule (as it concerns sex), where does that leave homosexual people?  Pretending to follow the rules (to people they don't trust, to all others, or, in severe cases, to themselves) and internalising the idea that they are Wrong and Bad to break so deep a rule (hence high suicide rate), or going as public as they dare, fighting to rewrite the rulebook and risking the consequences of rule violation... rejection by their family, friends, colleagues, prospective employers (etc.), physical violence, marginalisation, discrimination, and so on?  Unenviable.  As for the "homosexuals voluntarily choose a sinful lifestyle" argument, why would people choose this sort of oppression voluntarily?  Masochism?  Hedonism?  Whenever I hear this argument, I remember the first gay friend I ever had, who told me that, bravado, loyalty and gay pride aside, he'd much rather be straight, because then his family wouldn't have thrown him out, and he could have children, and he wouldn't constantly be living in fear of being bashed or rejected.  As he had been.

It still makes me sad, remembering that.

Tabouli.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From bbennett at joymail.com  Wed Feb 13 15:50:00 2002
From: bbennett at joymail.com (bbennett320178)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 15:50:00 -0000
Subject: SINKING Ships, characterizations
In-Reply-To: <a4d3sq+lkpo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a4e1v8+7be1@eGroups.com>

> -Katze asked: What disturbs me is that Ron is either made to be the 
bad guy/bad husband, or he is killed off in order to make the
Harry/Hermione happen. Why is this?
> 
> I think Ron gets killed off or turns bad simply because many of
> the H/Hr writers don't know what to do with him once H/Hr become a 
> couple. 

This is probably sort of the the same reason R/Hrs pair Ginny with 
Harry -writers need to do something with the dangling part of the 
Trio. While there is evidence as to why Ginny and Harry get paired up 
in fanon (Ginny likes Harry in canon), Ron has really only shown 
evidence of truly liking Hermione (I'm discounting his veela-inspired 
attraction to Fleur). You've got to do something with him if you pair 
Hermione and Harry; killing him off seems reasonable. ;)

> Jo Serenadust mentioned the danger of being influenced by 
> fanfiction. As far as being "tainted" by fanfiction I just try to 
>be aware of the possibility and try to remind myself "constant 
>vigilance!" :)

I've only read one story that I sometimes 'confuse' with canon, and 
that's Arabella's Hermione Queen of Witches series. These stories are 
from Hermione's POV, as she tells the events of all four books to her 
diary (inhabited by a great original character named Gwen), and are 
just wonderful. Although I've read other very wonderful stories, I 
don't know that I can say they've influenced the way I interpret the 
books - although the many conversations here, at FA.org, and at Sugar 
Quill have definitely made me think - and to a certain extent, many 
stories are just canon discussions put forth in prose.

You know, in H/H stories, I generally think both Harry and Ron are 
characterized similiarly to how they are in R/H fiction (well, unless 
Ron has kicked the bucket :b), but I often find myself disagreeing 
with how Hermione is characterized - she rarely jibes with my canon 
interpretation of her. Are there certain characterizations that you 
generally find unbelieveable, be it R/H or H/H, that prevents you 
from 'buying' the story?
 
> I don't usually read fanfiction about the younger characters
> specifically except at Sugarquill-mostly because they have well
> written and beta'd work plus I know I"m not going to run into slash 
>or student/teacher pairings (which generally isn't my thing.)  

I'm a beta-reader/mod at SQ; I'm glad to hear you enjoy the site! 
There are stories with slash pairings archived at SQ, actually, but I 
believe they are primarily grown up pairings (Remus, Sirius, etc). 
The site is oriented toward R/H stories (with H/G on the side), and a 
slash pairing involving any of the Trio would counter that (as would 
H/H or Draco and Hermione).

B







From ChrisHolloway999 at aol.com  Wed Feb 13 15:57:03 2002
From: ChrisHolloway999 at aol.com (lou_selastic)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 15:57:03 -0000
Subject: Facing The Challenge web site / Ground Rules
Message-ID: <a4e2cf+3hj6@eGroups.com>

As a newbie I only posted the opinion that I thought the  
www.facingthechallenge.org/potter  web site contained an interesting 
article about the dilemmas some Christian parents have expressed 
about allowing their children to read or see Harry Potter. It did not 
occur to me that it would evoke such controversey. How naive on my 
part!

However, just to get some things clear, John Walton wrote (12/02/02):

< From Webster's: intolerance n. The quality of being intolerant; 
refusal to allow others the enjoyment of their opinions, chosen modes 
of worship, and the like; want of patience and forbearance; 
illiberality; bigotry; as, intolerance shown toward a religious sect.>

Intolerance, by any dictionary definition, is denying the right of 
others to hold opinions, choose modes of worship, etc. with which one 
does not agree. Disagreement is not intolerance. As such there is 
nothing intolerant about the views expressed on the FC web site.

Secondly, I really do not see why it should be so offensive to 
express the opinion that any particular belief system or faith 
is "wrong" (meaning incorrect or erroneous, NOT meaning unlawful or 
immoral). If Christians beleve that Jesus Christ is the only way to 
find God (because this is what Jesus claimed in John Chapter 14, 
verse 6), then any other faith which says there is another way to 
find God contradicts this. They cannot both be right. One of them (or 
both of them) must be "wrong".

You may think your bank account is 2,000 dollars in credit. Your bank 
manager may disagree and say it is 1,000 dollars in the red. You 
cannot both be right. One of you must be wrong.

Lastly (almost), it is going to be inevitable that with such a 
diversity of backgrounds, opinions and views expressed in this chat 
group that someone, somewhere is going to be offended by someone 
else's opinion about something (especially religion). So be it. But I 
really do not see why there has to be so much censorship in the form 
of banned topics (e.g. that book by Richard Abane), especially when 
us newbies have never seen the original postings. The skill is to 
disagree with someone else without being abusive or contemptuous.

Finally (really), John Walton wrote:

< In conclusion, in my opinion, while Facing the Challenge is less 
rabidly moralistic and polemical than Focus on the Family,..... it's 
still extremely limited in its knowledge and perception of non-
Christians, and its moralism is only slightly veiled.
Perhaps it should be called "Facing the Challenged" instead.> 

I really think to use terms like "rabid" and to mock those who wrote 
the FC article by referring to it as "Facing the Challenged" is 
abusive (contemptuous) and insulting. Perhaps a higher standard of 
debate would lead to less censorship in this chat group.

Lou_Selastic




From tabouli at unite.com.au  Wed Feb 13 16:17:03 2002
From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 03:17:03 +1100
Subject: Hasty Clarifying Amendment to sociocultural rant
Message-ID: <000f01c1b4a9$e06b84e0$280ddccb@price>

Oo dear, just reread my last post and thought I'd better clarify my second last paragraph, lest I get misinterpreted...

I said:
>To get personal here, this is the context into which I'd put John's "touchiness" about Wicca and homosexuality.  Both of these violate some rules in the standard WASP rulebook, namely those gleaned from the Bible which warn against "man lying with man" and "witchcraft".<

After this, let me add the following: "John knows this, and he's fighting to have his faith and sexuality recognised and validated in spite of these rules.  When people uphold these rules, he gets "touchy" about it because it's an illustration of the pervasiveness of the very rulebook by which he feel condemned".

(er, John, I hope I'm not putting pschobabbly words you'd never countenance in your mouth, here...)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From heidit at netbox.com  Wed Feb 13 16:29:43 2002
From: heidit at netbox.com (heidit at netbox.com)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 11:29:43 EST
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Facing The Challenge web site / Ground Rules
Message-ID: <cc.680fd8d.299bee77@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/13/2002 10:57:30 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
ChrisHolloway999 at aol.com writes:


>  But I 
> really do not see why there has to be so much censorship in the form 
> of banned topics (e.g. that book by Richard Abane), especially when 
> us newbies have never seen the original postings.

I just wanted to point out that any newbie can see all the postings made by 
Richard Abanes and most of the replies thereto. Go to 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/messages/17414 and read onward 
from there (look at the message index and at least initially focus on posts 
which say Harry Potter & The Bible). Mr Abanes' first post is at 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/17513.

One of the primary reasons that discussion of the book is banned is because 
Mr Abanes, at post http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/17645, 
 accused a member of HP4GU of copyright infringement for quoting sections of 
Abanes' book in a response. It would be very very difficult, if not 
impossible, to discuss Abanes' theories, arguments and citations without 
quoting from the book, and given the interest of the mods to avoid a 
copyright infringement lawsuit (which I will not comment about the merit of 
now), it is, IMHO, reasonable and necessary to ban discussion of the book 
itself.

heidi


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk  Wed Feb 13 17:10:59 2002
From: kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk (Kathryn)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 17:10:59 -0000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Circles and arrows
References: <a4dusd+hdcd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <002401c1b4b1$6a5a5300$4e4a86d9@monica>

Whereas in the UK the government had to issue a statement saying that recognised religions did not derive purely from census results I did read that you can get a religion recognised by having it on a certain percentage of returns in Australia. Any of our Aussie friends want to tell me if I'm right here?

K
If an advisor says to me "My liege, he is but one man. What can one man possibly do?", I will reply "This." and kill the advisor.
http://minievil.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: blpurdom 
  To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2002 2:57 PM
  Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Circles and arrows


  --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "macloudt" <macloudt at y...> wrote:
  > ....all I want to know is, does a similar law exist in other 
  > countries?  Or do other countries distinguish between religions 
  > and occults in other ways, if at all?

  You do know about the Jedi thing in the UK, don't you?  On a recent 
  census, a tremendous number of people wrote "Jedi" or "Jedi knight" 
  on their census forms for the name of the religion to which they 
  subscribe.  Subsequently, conflicting reports emerged from the UK as 
  to whether "Jedi" was to be an officially-recognized religion by the 
  British government!  My husband and I were really cracking up over 
  this...Does anyone know whether a final decision was reached?

  --Barb




        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
              ADVERTISEMENT
             
       
       

  ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________

  Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the group's Admin Files!
  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/

  Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying!

  Is your message...
  An announcement of merchandise, news etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements.
  Movie-related? Send it to HPFGU-Movie.
  Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups.
  None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter.
  Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com

  Unsubscribing? Email HPFGU-OTChatter-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
  ____________________________________________________________


  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From crowswolf at sympatico.ca  Wed Feb 13 17:14:24 2002
From: crowswolf at sympatico.ca (quill_and_feather)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 17:14:24 -0000
Subject: HI EVERYONE! It's Me!!! Jamieson!
Message-ID: <a4e6tg+lr2j@eGroups.com>

Hey Everybody!!!

Just thought I'd send you all a little note...I've been pretty quiet 
as of late, but that'll be changing soon.  I'm having my new computer 
hooked up to Rogers cable internet, instead of the interactive 
television, so I'll be able to participate in the groups a bit easier. 

Not a lot new here. I've been loving living on my own. There's a nice 
freedom to coming home and wearing a bowl of fruit on your head, 
should that be your choice, and having no one look at you. It's pretty 
darn awsome.

My apartment kicks butt; it's about 800 square feet, so it's huge!!! I 
love all the space! I even have a new easel and some canvasses set up 
to do my art (I've done a few canvasses already, it's awsome) and 
large open rooms.

I got a new kitten, so Mave has a playmate. I have named her Pheobe 
(pronounced Fee Bee) which means Little Sister. I figuerd it fit, 
since her and Mave get along so very well.

She is a black and grey tabby, with green green eyes. She was beaten 
by her previous owners, and wasn't fed, so it's taken her a few weeks 
to trust me, but she's getting there. Slowly but surely.

I'm taking a writing class every monday night, and I'm loving it!!! 
It's just nice to sit in a class and be there for the simple joy of 
the written word.

I've dated two guys since Mitch. One turned out to be a big time huge 
racist, and date raped me. Bad bad bad bad evil man. And the other guy 
dumped me cus I'm a smoker. Men. But you know what, it's not the fact 
that I need a guy in my life that makes me lonley. It's the lack of 
company. You can only talk to your kittens for so long, before they 
start looking at you like you're on crack, or something. 

Other than that, existing and enjoying life for what it has to offer. 
Every day is a special day! I've even begun to work on myself 
Spiritually, and am studying Shaminism right now. I'm reading a book 
called Shakkai by an incredible author Lynn V. Andrews.  Check it out!

If you guys wan to drop me a line, please do. Forgive me for being 
away so long??

Hugs to all,

Jamieson




From kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk  Wed Feb 13 17:16:33 2002
From: kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk (Kathryn)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 17:16:33 -0000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Facing The Challenge Web Site
References: <a4cr9k+bshm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <002d01c1b4b2$33ba24a0$4e4a86d9@monica>

sorry that should have been hyphenated I actually meant "vehemently anti-everything not condoned by their particular brand of Christianity ignoramuses". Meaning that specific group of loud mouths who go around bashing everything which isn't an intergral part of their interpretation of the Bible and who have a tendency to be right-wing, anti-gay, anti-anything to do with the occult and often have difficulty understanding the difference between pagan and satanist.

K 
If an advisor says to me "My liege, he is but one man. What can one man possibly do?", I will reply "This." and kill the advisor.
http://minievil.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: serenadust 
  To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2002 4:49 AM
  Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Facing The Challenge Web Site


  --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "Kathryn" <kcawte at k...> wrote:
  > 
  > Also I wonder why it seems that the majority of these vehemently 
  anti-everything not condoned by their particular brand of 
  Christianity ignoramuses are American. We don't seem to get many 
  here (UK), and none who really achieve any level of notoriety. It 
  surprises me that the land of democracy and freeedom can breed such 
  a number of religious bigots whereas here we tend just to point and 
  laugh at such people?
  > 

  Having lived in the UK for a couple of years in the 90's, I think 
  that the reason you see the majority of the "Christianity 
  ignoramuses" (your term, and not a very *nice* one) being American 
  is the fact that religious life and practice is generally quite 
  different in the two countries. 
  ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________

  Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the group's Admin Files!
  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/

  Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying!

  Is your message...
  An announcement of merchandise, news etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements.
  Movie-related? Send it to HPFGU-Movie.
  Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups.
  None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter.
  Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com

  Unsubscribing? Email HPFGU-OTChatter-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
  ____________________________________________________________


  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk  Wed Feb 13 17:24:24 2002
From: kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk (Kathryn)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 17:24:24 -0000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] stuff in digest #533 (553?)
References: <20020213041557.7851.qmail@web20405.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <003b01c1b4b3$4bac1900$4e4a86d9@monica>

Several posts have made me want to reply using the quote "where first they burn books, soon they will be burning people" I think it's accurate, and if not it's a close approximation and should still be recognizable, but I can't remember *who* I'm quoting. A little help anyone?

K
If an advisor says to me "My liege, he is but one man. What can one man possibly do?", I will reply "This." and kill the advisor.
http://minievil.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Elizabeth Sager 
  To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2002 4:15 AM
  Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] stuff in digest #533 (553?)


  I went and read that essay, or website, or whatever
  you want to call it.

  As a Christian, I guess I'm caught somewhere in the
  middle. Call me enlightened. I'm perfectly fine if
  someone doesn't want to read the HP books, and don't,
  and speak nothing else of it. Its the people who go
  out and try to rile up supporters and want to ban the
  books, or burn them, or who seek to make everyone else
  think like they think that I draw the line at. 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From moongirlk at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 13 17:24:14 2002
From: moongirlk at yahoo.com (moongirlk)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 17:24:14 -0000
Subject: Alice, institutions, Woody and the witness protection program
In-Reply-To: <a4dnfe+ai7u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a4e7fu+4esv@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "lupinesque" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> Kimberly wrote:
> 
> > > ...but my train of thought is too convoluted for him, or maybe 
> he's 
> > > just never visited Alice's restaurant.
> 
> David wrote:
> 
> > Indeed not - I can't even work out from the references here what 
it 
> > *is* - book, record, what?


Amy did a fantastic job of explaining it, I'll just add you are 
fairly likely to come across the song on the radio around 
Thanksgiving time each year, if nothing else.  I know I was 
introduced to it by my uncle one Thanksgiving when I was 10 or 11.
It's one of the funniest things I've ever encountered.  I hold Arlo 
Guthrie and Abbot and Costello side-by-side in the Comedic Heroes 
portion of my brain.

And strangely Kathryn seems to actually want to hear my Witness 
Protection Program allegory.  She's a glutton for punishment, that 
Kathryn.

It's an example of my random thought processes entertaining me when I 
should be doing other things, just a goofy thought that popped into 
my head in which the Witness Protection Program represents baptism.  
The WPP gives the person a new identity (according to Christian 
tradition one comes out of baptism a new creation and puts on a new 
life) so that the Baddie can't get to him anymore, and as long as the 
person doesn't go back and start messing around with things from his 
old life, the baddie can't find him.  Silly, but it made me giggle.  

kimberly
very seldom bored




From blpurdom at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 13 17:24:18 2002
From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 17:24:18 -0000
Subject: Facing The Challenge web site / Ground Rules
In-Reply-To: <a4e2cf+3hj6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a4e7g3+urcd@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "lou_selastic" <ChrisHolloway999 at a...> 
wrote:

> Secondly, I really do not see why it should be so offensive to 
> express the opinion that any particular belief system or faith 
> is "wrong" (meaning incorrect or erroneous, NOT meaning unlawful 
> or immoral). 

You don't seem to have read my earlier post.  It isn't a problem to 
express this as an OPINION, but that isn't what was done.  The big 
clue to the problem here should be that a religion is in fact called 
a "belief system."  It involves beliefs, not cold, hard facts.  
Religion is not science and as such is not subject to the empirical 
rules that govern science concerning proof and adequate testing, 
corroboration of data, etc.  You can believe anything you want, but 
on the list, please state that this is what you BELIEVE, to 
distinguish this from verifiable fact.  I do the same thing with my 
own beliefs, whether it involves religion or my interpretation of HP 
canon (and we also ask people on the HPfGU lists to qualify their HP 
statements with "I believe" and "it is my opinion that..." unless 
they are citing chapter and verse where a FACT may be found in the 
canon books).  

> You may think your bank account is 2,000 dollars in credit. Your 
> bank manager may disagree and say it is 1,000 dollars in the red. 
> You cannot both be right. One of you must be wrong.

This argument is specious.  See above explanation of the difference 
between science and religion.

> Lastly (almost), it is going to be inevitable that with such a 
> diversity of backgrounds, opinions and views expressed in this 
> chat group that someone, somewhere is going to be offended by 
> someone else's opinion about something (especially religion). 

That is true, but it is even more likely when someone fails to 
qualify their opinion by calling it just that.

> Perhaps a higher standard of debate would lead to less censorship 
> in this chat group.

Heidi explained why the Abanes book is banned.  If the list is sued, 
are you willing to pitch in for legal costs?  There is nothing else 
around here that could qualify for the name of censorship (and 
technically, even the issue of the Abanes book does not qualify).  
If you wish to send mail to the mods requesting a detailed 
explanation for the Holocaust being a banned subject, do so.  

--Barb





From kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk  Wed Feb 13 17:49:00 2002
From: kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk (Kathryn)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 17:49:00 -0000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Alice, institutions, Woody and the witness protection program
References: <a4e7fu+4esv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <001401c1b4b6$b905d7e0$4e4a86d9@monica>

LOL! That was actually worth asking for. I like this theory. Glutton for punishment, me? Perhaps I just have different standards than others, after some of the history textbooks I've been forced to read *nothing* on this list could be described as lacking entertainment value at the very least.

K
If an advisor says to me "My liege, he is but one man. What can one man possibly do?", I will reply "This." and kill the advisor.
http://minievil.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: moongirlk 
  To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2002 5:24 PM
  Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Alice, institutions, Woody and the witness protection program


  --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "lupinesque" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
  > Kimberly wrote:
  > 
  > > > ...but my train of thought is too convoluted for him, or maybe 
  > he's 
  > > > just never visited Alice's restaurant.
  > 
  > David wrote:
  > 
  > > Indeed not - I can't even work out from the references here what 
  it 
  > > *is* - book, record, what?


  Amy did a fantastic job of explaining it, I'll just add you are 
  fairly likely to come across the song on the radio around 
  Thanksgiving time each year, if nothing else.  I know I was 
  introduced to it by my uncle one Thanksgiving when I was 10 or 11.
  It's one of the funniest things I've ever encountered.  I hold Arlo 
  Guthrie and Abbot and Costello side-by-side in the Comedic Heroes 
  portion of my brain.

  And strangely Kathryn seems to actually want to hear my Witness 
  Protection Program allegory.  She's a glutton for punishment, that 
  Kathryn.

  It's an example of my random thought processes entertaining me when I 
  should be doing other things, just a goofy thought that popped into 
  my head in which the Witness Protection Program represents baptism.  
  The WPP gives the person a new identity (according to Christian 
  tradition one comes out of baptism a new creation and puts on a new 
  life) so that the Baddie can't get to him anymore, and as long as the 
  person doesn't go back and start messing around with things from his 
  old life, the baddie can't find him.  Silly, but it made me giggle.  

  kimberly
  very seldom bored


        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
              ADVERTISEMENT
             
       
       

  ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________

  Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the group's Admin Files!
  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/

  Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying!

  Is your message...
  An announcement of merchandise, news etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements.
  Movie-related? Send it to HPFGU-Movie.
  Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups.
  None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter.
  Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com

  Unsubscribing? Email HPFGU-OTChatter-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
  ____________________________________________________________


  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed Feb 13 18:02:51 2002
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 18:02:51 -0000
Subject: My SHIP is sinking...
In-Reply-To: <3C69E6BD.7CCE8634@kingwoodcable.com>
Message-ID: <a4e9ob+i248@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., Katze <jdumas at k...> wrote:

> After reading various fanfics, I've found a very strange pattern 
occuris fics that end up H/Hr.  It seems that the impulse reaction 
is to pair Ron and Hermione, and Harry with either Ginny or x (I 
won't read ficswhere he's dead). What disturbs me is that Ron is 
either made to be the bad guy/bad husband, or he is killed off in 
order to make the Harry/Hermione happen. Why is this?
> 
> Knut for your thoughts?

Well, this is not really hard to understand. Draw yourself a nice 
hot bath, sprinkle in the salts and the bubbles, light a scented 
candle, slip into the soothing waters, smile as your head 
touches the bath pillow, close your eyes and think of... Ron? 

See, Ron doesn't cut it as a romantic fantasy. Draco's got exotic 
hair, an interesting pallor, great and likely ill-gotten wealth, and 
loads of attitude. Harry's got a mysterious destiny, exotic eyes, 
great wealth, and he's an orphan (sniff!)  Draco lives in 
mysterious unseen Malfoy Manor. Harry is captive to the ogrelike 
Dursleys.  Ron, the wizarding world's boy next door, lives in a 
ramshackle house where the pipes bang, there's mouths to feed 
and chores to do, people have jobs that aren't going anywhere 
and nobody  appreciates him. Not much fuel for fantasy there 
either.  And why do people write fanfic? Because they don't want 
the fantasy to end.  But Ron is the end of the story. After he wins 
Hermione there's nothing more to say except, "and they lived 
happily ever after", unless you want to write about banging pipes 
and such.

Of course I think Hermione and Ron are going to be a great 
couple, but to write about them you have to think about what it's 
really like to love somebody and not about that wonderful 
nebulous "being in love" which is the stuff of romance novels 
and bathtub fantasy.

Pippin




From witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 13 18:09:24 2002
From: witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com (Wanda Mallett)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 10:09:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] HI EVERYONE! It's Me!!! Jamieson!
In-Reply-To: <a4e6tg+lr2j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20020213180924.244.qmail@web13703.mail.yahoo.com>


 
  quill_and_feather <crowswolf at sympatico.ca> wrote: 
Hey Everybody!!!

Just thought I'd send you all a little note...I've been pretty quiet 
as of late, but that'll be changing soon.

Well, it's about time we saw you here on the list, my friend to the North! Looking forward to some of your great input on many things! Happy that your happy! My boys and I will be happy to read about your ideas on many HP and other things!

Schnoogles to you, Jamieson,

Wanda the Witch of Revere, Massachusetts and Her Vey Merry Band of Muggles 100%

  



---------------------------------
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From ftah3 at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 13 18:12:31 2002
From: ftah3 at yahoo.com (ftah3)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 18:12:31 -0000
Subject: Why no Abanes (was Facing The Challenge web site / Ground Rules)
In-Reply-To: <cc.680fd8d.299bee77@aol.com>
Message-ID: <a4eaaf+ngt9@eGroups.com>

Heidi wrote:
> One of the primary reasons that discussion of the book is banned is 
because 
> Mr Abanes, at post 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/17645, 
>  accused a member of HP4GU of copyright infringement for quoting 
sections of 
> Abanes' book in a response. It would be very very difficult, if not 
> impossible, to discuss Abanes' theories, arguments and citations 
without 
> quoting from the book, and given the interest of the mods to avoid 
a 
> copyright infringement lawsuit (which I will not comment about the 
merit of 
> now), it is, IMHO, reasonable and necessary to ban discussion of 
the book 
> itself.

This is very very very very very very useful information.  I too had 
been wondering why discussion of Abanes & his book was banned, while 
convos like the one inspired by the guy (Kevin, was it?) who posted 
an essay containing his views on why the HP books went against 
Christian morality (etc) was allowable.  Any way you could make this 
explanation available, say in the posting rules/guidelines?  Rather 
than just listing Abanes as a banned topic with no reasons as to why, 
that is.

A small thought, feel free to ignore completely!

Mahoney




From ftah3 at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 13 18:24:13 2002
From: ftah3 at yahoo.com (ftah3)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 18:24:13 -0000
Subject: Facing The Challenge web site / Ground Rules
In-Reply-To: <a4e2cf+3hj6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a4eb0d+4l3q@eGroups.com>

This will address one of lou_selastic's points, but not the Facing 
the Challenge website or it's contents.  Haven't visited it, and so 
far have no desire to.  Curiosity may get the better of me later, who 
knows.

lou_selastic wrote:
> Secondly, I really do not see why it should be so offensive to 
> express the opinion that any particular belief system or faith 
> is "wrong" (meaning incorrect or erroneous, NOT meaning unlawful or 
> immoral). If Christians beleve that Jesus Christ is the only way to 
> find God (because this is what Jesus claimed in John Chapter 14, 
> verse 6), then any other faith which says there is another way to 
> find God contradicts this. They cannot both be right. One of them 
(or 
> both of them) must be "wrong".

No, there is no *objective* requirement than one or both must be 
wrong, and similarly no requirment that they both cannot be right.  
In my opinion, that is a fallacy, and when perpetuated by individuals 
in support of religious views, drives me crazy (not meaning you, lou, 
as we've not discussed this far enough for me to know whether you are 
stating a belief or arguing a point on a philosophical basis; I'm 
speaking generally).  

But that is not, in fact, the important point.  Whether one believes 
one's faith system to be right and all others to be wrong is only 
critical in terms of intolerance when that person therefore feels 
justified to act in a prejudicial way towards those not sharing the 
same belief.  Mr. X can believe that the only True God is the 
Southern Baptist God and that all people of other faiths are going to 
Hell, and that's fine and nothing wrong about it.  But when Mr. X 
proceeds to treat those of other faiths as lesser individuals, and 
attempts to curtail or infringe upon others' rights based on the 
strictures of his own belief system ~ that is (to me) the meat of 
intolerance, and is the aspect that could be argued "wrong."

Imho.

Mahoney






From Joanne0012 at aol.com  Wed Feb 13 18:28:58 2002
From: Joanne0012 at aol.com (joanne0012)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 18:28:58 -0000
Subject: Alice, 
In-Reply-To: <001401c1b4b6$b905d7e0$4e4a86d9@monica>
Message-ID: <a4eb9a+n473@eGroups.com>

For those of you who are feeling curious or just nostaligic, here are the lyrics to 
Alice's Restaurant, courtesy of Arlo's very own site and thus not any sort of 
copyright infringement!  ;-)

http://www.arlo.net/lyrics/alices.shtml

Since the various versions run about 17 to 20 minutes long, it doesn't get played 
very often!




From walkthewalk999 at aol.com  Wed Feb 13 18:38:05 2002
From: walkthewalk999 at aol.com (walkthewalk999 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 13:38:05 EST
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] stuff in digest #533 (553?)
Message-ID: <8e.22ef1734.299c0c8d@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/12/02 11:17:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
dizzylizzy182 at yahoo.com writes:


> Liz (who would like to say that Linda is her new hero)

awwwwwwwwwwww.

Thank you :-)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From ChrisHolloway999 at aol.com  Wed Feb 13 19:29:54 2002
From: ChrisHolloway999 at aol.com (lou_selastic)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 19:29:54 -0000
Subject: Facing the Challenge web site / Ground Rules
Message-ID: <a4eeri+7eu4@eGroups.com>

As a newbie I was not aware of the copyright issues surrounding 
Richard Abanes book which Heidi has pointed out to me. 

In an earlier posting I withdrew my earlier comments about censorship 
and banned topics, but that posting seems to have been lost (or 
censored out - sorry: joke!)

Lou_Selastic




From editor at texas.net  Wed Feb 13 20:02:26 2002
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 14:02:26 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Challenges everyday ....
References: <a4cqcj+74df@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <016e01c1b4c9$5cac33a0$017c63d1@texas.net>

Michelle said

Severe Right-Wingers
> offend me .... do I think they are wrong?  well, yeah, but unless
> they are maliciously hurting others, they have as much right to
> worship whom they choose as I do.

Just for the record, "severe right-wing" isn't a religion and has no
prescribed deity of which I am aware. Plenty of severe right-wingers are not
particularly religious; it seems a common misconception to lump them with
zealotry. You do neither the zealots nor the severe right-wingers justice in
this.

> Michelle :)  <----who went to her very first Mardi Gras in New
> Orleans last weekend and only showed flesh 3 times (I'm rather proud
> of my restraint!!!)

That, my dear, depends entirely upon the particular locale of what you
showed....and three times, too!

--Amanda





From moongirlk at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 13 20:17:41 2002
From: moongirlk at yahoo.com (moongirlk)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 20:17:41 -0000
Subject: My SHIP is sinking...
In-Reply-To: <a4e9ob+i248@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a4ehl5+j47n@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> wrote:
> See, Ron doesn't cut it as a romantic fantasy. Draco's got exotic 
> hair, an interesting pallor, great and likely ill-gotten wealth, 
and 
> loads of attitude. Harry's got a mysterious destiny, exotic eyes, 
> great wealth, and he's an orphan (sniff!)  Draco lives in 
> mysterious unseen Malfoy Manor. Harry is captive to the ogrelike 
> Dursleys.  Ron, the wizarding world's boy next door, lives in a 
> ramshackle house where the pipes bang, there's mouths to feed 
> and chores to do, people have jobs that aren't going anywhere 
> and nobody  appreciates him. Not much fuel for fantasy there 
> either.  And why do people write fanfic? Because they don't want 
> the fantasy to end.  But Ron is the end of the story. After he wins 
> Hermione there's nothing more to say except, "and they lived 
> happily ever after", unless you want to write about banging pipes 
> and such.

This is fascinating to me, because for me Draco's just too nasty to 
be an acceptable leading man, and Harry's too much the little boy I'd 
want to take care of for me to imagine him in a romantic role, I 
think also in part because he was introduced to us as a baby.  

Ron is the best romantic lead in my head (aside from being way too 
young, that is).  He's passionate and funny and loyal and 
imaginative.  All my favorite turnons.  It doesn't hurt that my inner 
child was in love with him from practically his first scene.  As I 
got to know him reading the books, my more rational side was even 
more pleased by the way he was so realistically characterized.  He's 
got all the right insecurities and quirks (in my opinion) for a kid 
of his age, background and situation, and he's got this great family 
(sometimes my inner child casts longing glances at his brothers even, 
but they're too old for her).

Anyway, interesting to see how the romantic lead gets cast in the 
productions of our minds, innit?

kimberly
a veritable posting machine for two days now.


kimberly




From firefightermichelle at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 13 20:27:10 2002
From: firefightermichelle at yahoo.com (firefightermichelle)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 20:27:10 -0000
Subject: Challenges everyday ....
In-Reply-To: <016e01c1b4c9$5cac33a0$017c63d1@texas.net>
Message-ID: <a4ei6u+3ldq@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "Amanda" <editor at t...> wrote:
> Michelle said
> 
> Severe Right-Wingers
> > offend me .... do I think they are wrong?  well, yeah, but unless
> > they are maliciously hurting others, they have as much right to
> > worship whom they choose as I do.
> 
> Just for the record, "severe right-wing" isn't a religion and has no
> prescribed deity of which I am aware. Plenty of severe right-
wingers are not
> particularly religious; it seems a common misconception to lump 
them with
> zealotry. You do neither the zealots nor the severe right-wingers 
justice in
> this.
> 
> > Michelle :)  <----who went to her very first Mardi Gras in New
> > Orleans last weekend and only showed flesh 3 times (I'm rather 
proud
> > of my restraint!!!)
> 
> That, my dear, depends entirely upon the particular locale of what 
you
> showed....and three times, too!
> 
> --Amanda


I meant Severw Right Wingers in general .... not just religious 
ones.  Political ones too.  Pretty much anything that tells me that I 
am wrong because of my beliefs and there is no other way than the way 
they say ... offends me.  

And I showed the appropriate body part(s) to get good beads :)

Michelle :) <---who got everything done today she wanted to and is 
very proud of herself because some of the things she had been putting 
off for about 6 months!  YAh!!!




From editor at texas.net  Wed Feb 13 20:32:31 2002
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 14:32:31 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Facing The Challenge web site / Ground Rules
References: <a4e2cf+3hj6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <01d901c1b4cd$98a17ce0$017c63d1@texas.net>

Lou_Selasic opined:

If Christians beleve that Jesus Christ is the only way to
> find God (because this is what Jesus claimed in John Chapter 14,
> verse 6), then any other faith which says there is another way to
> find God contradicts this. They cannot both be right. One of them (or
> both of them) must be "wrong".

Not true. I will digress a bit and give you the explanation I gave my
daughter, when she was straining her 6-year understanding to encompass why
anyone would hate strangers enough to kill them (a la Sept. 11) and we got
into different religions. I took her around to the front of our house and I
asked her what it looked like. She said it was light blue & white, and
smooth (the front is stucco). I took her around to the back and asked the
same thing. It was darker blue and wooden (siding). Then I asked her what
would happen if someone who had only ever seen the front met someone who had
only ever seen the back--would they ever agree on what it looked like? No.
Would either of them be wrong? No. Could they fight about it? Yes. Would
that be bad? Yes. Without ever seeing the whole house, would they ever
understand? No. She got it.

The mortal mind is incapable of comprehending the fullness of the deity;
that is where faith and mystery come in. My beliefs are strong. But I am
also prepared to accept that I am seeing one side of the house, one facet of
the jewel, and that I will not be able to fathom the inherent "rightness" of
apparently disparate belief systems until after I get to see the whole
house.

> You may think your bank account is 2,000 dollars in credit. Your bank
> manager may disagree and say it is 1,000 dollars in the red. You
> cannot both be right. One of you must be wrong.

This isn't the same thing. This is a fact situation that can be cleared up
with some examination. Someone will have made an accounting error. And if
it's my account and my luck, it will be me. The point is, in this example
there are distinct parameters of hard fact and cash which can be uncovered.
It's not applicable.
>
> Lastly (almost), it is going to be inevitable that with such a
> diversity of backgrounds, opinions and views expressed in this chat
> group that someone, somewhere is going to be offended by someone
> else's opinion about something (especially religion). So be it. But I
> really do not see why there has to be so much censorship in the form
> of banned topics (e.g. that book by Richard Abane), especially when
> us newbies have never seen the original postings. The skill is to
> disagree with someone else without being abusive or contemptuous.

A skill which the distinguished banned subject of discussion did not have;
nor did some of us, when he was posting. Anyone who's genuinely curious
about the original postings can easily go find them--they weren't deleted to
my knowledge. We're not hiding anything, it was just a genuinely painful and
flaming and upsetting episode in a usually rather fun list, and we don't
want a repeat.

And there really isn't that much that is banned. The Holocaust, politics
(and this means direct political statements), and Richard Abanes. All we ask
for on any other sensitive topics, is, well, sensitivity. That's not a lot
of censorship.

Lastly, on a general note (i.e., not aimed at this specific poster):
One needs only toodle over to some of the less-moderated lists to see the
chaos and inanity that can result from less attention by those In Charge.
The moderators and elves put in a load of work on these lists, because they
love the subject matter, NOT because they're into power tripping. They do
have lives and they lend a considerable amount of those lives to helping
keep lists of this size friendly and welcoming and intelligent and to the
point and not totally overwhelming in volume. We could do with a bit more
appreciation of the time they put in, and a bit less griping about how
restricted all us poor listmembers are. We sound like teenagers who haven't
been allowed to have the car because we didn't do our homework. Jeez.

--Amanda, veteran listee and Abanes' old list-elf




From editor at texas.net  Wed Feb 13 21:28:16 2002
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 15:28:16 -0600
Subject: Amandageist is peeved (was Onlist complaints)
References: <a4dojp+fg3t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <025401c1b4d5$5a8e6640$017c63d1@texas.net>

As a poltergeist I will now say what I must say.

[Caveat: this is *not* aimed at the majority of the list, who appreciate the
time and energy the list adminstration puts in and the atmosphere it
creates.]

I am *not* responding to that long, rambling post that insulted anyone whose
name the poster could remember and a few she couldn't. Really. But I am
angry and some things must be said and it is the poltergeist's lot to call a
spade a spade. And I cannot aim my water balloons at the poster, she joined
under that identity merely to post her rant and then unsubscribed. The
coward.

This list is not a democracy. This list is a hobby list started by some
people who liked HP, to get to discuss things with people who liked HP too.

When you join a list like this, it's like joining a group at a party who are
talking about some topic. Generally you stand at the edges and listen to
what's going on, then chime in if something strikes you; or you can stand
and listen and enjoy the discussions, silently applauding when someone makes
your point. Quite often, once someone has spoken a couple of times on
something, they stand quiet and listen for a bit. The composition of the
group will change as some people get tired and go to bed, go for a beer,
move closer to certain discussions, move away from others, or stand on a
table and dance.

To make my point. Penny and the moderators own the house we're partying in.
They have certain legal obligations to the hosting service they must honor.
They pay the bills and water the plants and set out the onion dip. And they,
because they do the list maintenance--own the house--have *every* right, and
the *obligation,* to tell the list when we're getting too loud, or
obnoxious, or inflammatory. Don't start breaking the furniture. No feet
through the TV, please.

When someone joins the list, they don't get a vote as to how the list is
run. Because the mods are reasonable people, new opinions are listened to
and considered. But not when these opinions are pronounced by someone who
has effectively stood on the table in the middle of the group at the party
and interrupted everyone to tell them how the hosts are idiots and
controlling and small-minded, right there in the house that those hosts
provided for the discussion.

Many of the older listmembers don't post much now because, frankly, it's
hard to get worked up about something you've gotten worked up about many
times in the past. It becomes entertaining simply to stand there, drink in
hand, and listen to what others say. We're still here; we're either just
taking a break or real life has gotten a bit time-consuming.

The intricate structure of list-elves and mod duties that some feel is
oppressive was created so that the list can still be a friendly and
reasonably intelligent place, and still be open to new members. The
governance of a list of 3700-or-so is vastly different from the governance
of the 200 or so it was when I joined. Yet I can tell you that the "flavor"
of the list has not much changed, the caliber of the discussions has not
gone down, and this is to the immense credit of the mods and elves.

So.
If you don't like the rules on this list.
If you feel you're being oppressed.
If you think you're being gagged.
If you feel your right to free speech is being curtailed.
If you think Penny or John or any other mods or elves are intolerant.
Or if you're simply into stirring things up for the hell of it..

Don't let the door hit you in the butt. Start your own group, and I wish you
joy of it, if you have a no-holds-barred, no-parameters, anything-goes
approach to the posting. Maybe you'll gain enough maturity to appreciate
what these mods and elves do, giving up so much of their time to keep this
list a flame-free and enjoyable place.

--Amandageist




From ftah3 at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 13 22:11:54 2002
From: ftah3 at yahoo.com (ftah3)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 22:11:54 -0000
Subject: Amandageist is peeved (was Onlist complaints)
In-Reply-To: <025401c1b4d5$5a8e6640$017c63d1@texas.net>
Message-ID: <a4eoba+ufko@eGroups.com>

Amanda wrote:
> This list is not a democracy. 

LOL.  That's exactly what I would have said, except I didn't want to 
respond and start a fight.  I honestly don't get people who think 
they have a right to tell other people how to run a website, or how 
to run an email list, or when to post new fanfiction, and other stuff 
like that.  Webmasters, listowners and fanfic writers are not 
obligated to anyone but themselves, and it's imho mighty presumptuous 
to presume otherwise.

By the way, I'm not a Mod, Elf or Poltergeist, nor do I know any of 
them at all (except for John, with whom I have had a few brief 
exchanges).  I don't always agree with them either, so I'm not a 
toady.  This is just my own personal uncoerced opinion.

Mahoney






From bray.262 at osu.edu  Wed Feb 13 17:23:25 2002
From: bray.262 at osu.edu (Rachel Bray)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 17:23:25 EST5EDT
Subject: Resemblence to characters, hi Jamieson, etc.
Message-ID: <1ED7E64AF1@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>

Can't we just drop all this and get back to liking each 
other again?  (I knew as soon as I saw the name Abane pop 
up that we'd soon be slamming our heads down on our desks 
in frustration....I still have the bruise!)

Thanks to everyone who sent me posts about Bichon Frises!  
Great insight.  Good ideas and some really hilarious 
stories.  I appreciate it!

Welcome back, Jamieson!!!  Good to hear from you and know 
you're enjoying living by yourself.  It's an adjustment but 
so much fun at times.  Especially when you have an urge to 
dance around in your underwear to the stereo blasting old 
Madonna songs, eating a pint of Ben and Jerry's while 
waiting for your dryer to FINALLY get your jeans dry enough 
so you can dress for work....not that I would know anything 
about that....but, you know...I've heard it's fun.

I would have to say I'm more like a hobbit than a character 
from HP.  I love to eat, drink, sing, and visit friends. ha 
ha.  The only big difference is I'm 5'9".  But the guy I 
was kinda dating a bit back reminded me of Hagrid.  Big, 
kinda rough looking with a heart of gold who loves to talk 
about his nursery he owns.  :-)

By the way, Happy Belated Birthday to all you I missed in 
the last couple weeks.  I'm so VERY sorry.  :-(  I owe you 
all a butterbeer next time there's a meeting in Hogsmeade.

So....does anyone else think the Canadians should have won 
the gold in the pairs skating?



Rachel Bray
The Ohio State University
Fees, Deposits and Disbursements

Inigo: That Vizzini, he can *fuss*.
Fezzik: Fuss, fuss... I think he like to scream at *us*.
Inigo: Probably he means no *harm*.
Fezzik: He's really very short on *charm*.
Inigo: You have a great gift for rhyme.
Fezzik: Yes, yes, some of the time.
Vizzini: Enough of that!
Inigo: Fezzik, are there rocks ahead?
Fezzik: If there are, we all be dead!
Vizzini: No more rhymes now, I mean it!
Fezzik: Anybody want a peanut?
Vizzini: AAHHHHHH!!
          - The Princess Bride



From mafaldahopkirk at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 13 22:38:27 2002
From: mafaldahopkirk at yahoo.com (mafaldahopkirk)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 22:38:27 -0000
Subject: A response
Message-ID: <a4ept3+vrej@eGroups.com>

Saitaina: I as a list member, applaud the need to keep controversial
topics off the list. IT lead no where. I have seen the fights and 
licked the wounds of the war and refuse to be a part of it again. 
Religious/Politics/What have you is a fight that has no winners and 
only losers and It's tiring to see it on the list. My point of view 
is mine and yours is yours. I do not need to see 500+ posts of why 
your point of view is the right one when I'm never going to move to 
your side and agree. I will not stand by and watch this list be torn 
asunder by someone who wishes to preach 'the right way'. I reuse.

Mafalda: This may be true for some people who are bullheaded and
irresponsible and refuse to change their minds because of a little 
thing
they are offended by. Like I do, I read from both sides, do a little
research, find evidence before posting and make a intelligently worded
argument instead of "Boo, I don't like how the mods behave on the 
list."

Note that I only mentioned two moderators, not all seven moderators.
I've heard of the new ones and haven't seen them in action yet, as for
the older moderators, like Neil Ward, I must commend him for the
excellent job he is doing on the HPFGU lists. I am not against all
moderators as you can see. I am not attacking the moderator's 
character,
just pointing out a characteristic they do. I know these moderators 
can
be nice and sweet (your allusion to John), but they have 
characteristics
which make the newer members afraid to start up a discussion.

This is a list where all discussions are supposely ok to use. Please
note that the new members have no knowledge of the banned topics and
they should be notified instead of being shot down so unnecessarily.

Saitaina: Most members do not speak for we have no need to. I read the
posts, nod in agreement and refrain from commenting due to it having 
no
purpose other then to say "I agree". Should I find a post I wish to
comment on I do so. It is not fear that keeps me silent but no words 
to
say.

Mafalda: That is true, the members do not speak for you. Although, 
I've
interviewed at least 20 members in the last year  about the 
moderator's
actions and they've said they were afraid to write on a board and were
already shot down harshly before and decided not to write at all. That
shows that there is a group within the 4,000 strong (I can't say a
definite number of people) over at HPFGU that don't like the way the
moderators act. And these people that I interviewed were in their mid
twenties to late twenties so I can't speak for the over thirty and 
under
twenty people on this.

Now onto Amy:

Amy: Needless to say, "discussion" of the personal qualities of any
listmember will not be allowed on the list. Please do not respond to 
the
post.

Mafalda: This is exactly what I predicted at the end of my first post.
You're merely sweeping this under the rug so your utopia of HPFGU can
continue. And there are people who want to respond to this but are
afraid to because of your statement.

Meineke Pallada: If these discussions are private, how do you know 
this?
Unless you are a Mod or a List Elf, you are not privy to these
discussions, so I find this argument debatable.

Mafalda: I could be either a Mod or a List Elf or a Poltergeist, or I
could be neither. I've been on the board and I know what goes on 
behind
the scenes. It isn't pretty, believe me.

Meineke Pallada: Firstly, of course he makes his own points on posts,
they're his opinions aren't they.

Mafalda: Yes they are his opinions, but John does not have a right to
shoot off certain members just because he's a Moderator. This is
considered a rant. A democrat calling a republician "an incredible 
hulk
of stupidity"  is a good example of a rant. John's reply to the
aforesaid Elizabeth called her stupid because of the way she 
complained
(one of the few people to step out) about Penny allowing shipping
discussions on the mainlist. That was an unneccessary shooting off of 
a
member by John.

Meineke Pallada: Why do you attack Penny and John so vehemently? First
of all there are seven Mods not just two, why do you hold Penny and 
John
personally responsible? This is totally unfair and uncalled for.

Mafalda: I did not say I was holding Penny and John personally
responsible. I'm just pointing out a characteristic, although stubborn
(Penny on her shipping issues, John on his apparent uncontrollable 
need
to viputerate a member), that limits a discussion on certain things
onlist. Penny and John may have qualities that may be useful for the
list, but I have yet to see these qualities. Therefore it wasn't 
totally
unfair and uncalled for.
Meineke Pallada: I am really sorry you feel this way, but once again 
if
you are not happy in this community, you are free to leave.

Mafalda: This is the sort of attitude that makes people want to leave
the list. I think it is helpful to state something out loud, in the
hopes of making a tiny change, instead of just leaving the list 
because
you are unhappy with it. I'm happy with the list and I don't intend to
leave, I'm unhappy with how it is handled.

Meineke Pallada in response to Amy: I am sorry, when I finished 
writing
and sending my reply, lo and behold I receive this message. So I'm
sorry, but I saw it too late and I couldn't undo it anymore. *bows 
head
in shame, peeking up hopefully for forgiveness* I shan't do it 
anymore,
sirs! ;-))

Mafalda: This is exactly what I am talking about. You don't have to 
say
sorry for stating your opinon to my letter, I was glad to get a 
response
because I like to hear from the other side of the story. I am not
offended and I don't get offended that easily. It is quite interesting
to read a person's opinion. It is also a plus to do some research and
reading beforehand to write the post. This is the art of intelligent
debate. I am not an Abanes who accuses people of copywright 
infrigement.

Lou_selastic: As a newbie I only posted the opinion that I thought the
www.facingthechallenge.org/potter website contained an interesting
article about the dilemmas some Christian parents have expressed  
about
allowing their children to read or see Harry Potter. It did not occur 
to
me that it would evoke such controversey. How naive on my part!

Mafalda: Don't worry about it, lou_selastic. It's interesting to see
what sort of websites talk about Harry Potter. I am definitly not a
religious person but it is interesting to see what people have to 
say. I
agree with most people that when a person says they've not read the
books and the books concur satanism etc, unbelievably narrowminded
because of their lack of experiencing the subject (Harry Potter).
Otherwise it is interesting to see what sort of opinions people have,
that means I don't storm out of the room because I don't agree with 
the
topic.

Heidi: One of the primary reasons that discussion of the book is 
banned
is because Mr Abanes accused a member of HP4GU of copyright 
infringement
for quoting sections of Abanes' book in a response.

Mafalda: What Mr Abanes didn't know was that the person had cited him 
in
their post, so he knew that even though he was cited as the author of
these works, that he wouldn't be able to sue for copywright 
infrigement
or plagerism. Even though Abanes has a profound hate for Harry Potter,
he is forever linked to Harry Potter and he is the hated cousin we
cannot forget about. He thus becomes an on topic OT-Chatter topic.

There's further discussion on Abanes on his many websites and articles
that can be discussed on the list.

Heidi: It is, IMHO, reasonable and necessary to ban discussion of the
book itself.

Mafalda: On the OT-Chatter list, this statement has the strains of a
dictatorship. In a dictatorship, the people couldn't speak for
themselves because of certain rules applying in this. On other lists,
this statement is fine because it's off topic on those said lists.

Also, the original postings can be discussed on the OT-Chatter list 
and
psychoanalyzed. Why does Abanes do this? Or do that? It's nice to go
into the mind of a HP-hater just by reading his posts.

Mahoney: I too had been wondering why discussion of Abanes & his book
was banned, while convos like the one inspired by the guy (Kevin, was
it?) who posted an essay containing his views on why the HP books went
against Christian morality (etc) was allowable. Any way you could make
this explanation available, say in the posting rules/guidelines? 
Rather
than just listing Abanes as a banned topic with no reasons as to why,
that is.

Mafalda: Excellent point, Mahoney. This is what I tried to explain in 
my
last post, but Amy had cunningly tried to sweep my post under the rug.
It would be nice to hear from every moderator on this.

Amandageist: I am *not* responding to that long, rambling post that
insulted anyone whose name the poster could remember and a few she
couldn't. Really. But I am angry and some things must be said and it 
is
the poltergeist's lot to call a spade a spade. And I cannot aim my 
water
balloons at the poster, she joined under that identity merely to post
her rant and then unsubscribed.
The coward.

Mafalda: I am so highly insulted that you called me a coward. And you
didn't check the member directory properly enough to see that I did 
not
unsuscribe as you said. You're an example of jumping to conclusions 
and
calling a member names. That is unacceptable.

Amandageist: To make my point. Penny and the moderators own the house
we're partying in. They have certain legal obligations to the hosting
service they must honor. They pay the bills and water the plants and 
set
out the onion dip. And they, because they do the list maintenance--own
the house--have *every* right, andthe *obligation,* to tell the list
when we're getting too loud, orobnoxious, or inflammatory. Don't start
breaking the furniture. No feet through the TV, please.

Mafalda: The difference between a party and a list is the list is free
to join. At parties there are discussions on certain topics which 
liven
up the party. There may be some topics that the party-giver may not 
like
but s/he doesn't kick the party-goers out because it is a topic the
people are willing to listen to. The list makes it sound like the
moderators aren't willing to listen to what we have to say. I've been 
on
the list and many lists before for nearly two years and when I first
joined there were many topics (which are now banned) were freely
discussed without vexation from the moderators. Even the mainlist 
then,
had many OT chatter topics before OT-Chatter was begun.

Amandageist: Don't let the door hit you in the butt. Start your own
group, and I wish youjoy of it, if you have a no-holds-barred,
no-parameters, anything-goes approach to the posting. Maybe you'll 
gain
enough maturity to appreciate what these mods and elves do, giving up 
so
much of their time to keep this list a flame-free and enjoyable place.

Mafalda: I know these moderators are continuously busy with real life
and the boards, but it does not give them a right to shoot off on 
other
members because they were simply just starting discussion about
something they did not know that was banned. Amanda, your behaviour
states that you want me to leave, which is a quite immature way of
putting it, although I appreciate your suggestion of me creating a
group. I am in no mood of creating a group while there is a group for
off topic subjects (OT-Chatter) when I have subjects that are
appropriate for off topic. I'm an intelligent, very well read person 
and
I'm willing to talk about anything.

To conclude my post with this: there are people who are trying to give
me an unwelcome attitude to leave, there are people who are wondering
about Abanes and the moderators refuse to continue the conversation. I
am not being immature like you stated, Amanda. Which is an example of
shooting off a poster, which can be considered as immature.

Thank you for reading this,

Mafalda







From witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 13 22:52:36 2002
From: witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com (Wanda Mallett)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 14:52:36 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Amandageist is peeved (was Onlist complaints)
In-Reply-To: <025401c1b4d5$5a8e6640$017c63d1@texas.net>
Message-ID: <20020213225236.59015.qmail@web13708.mail.yahoo.com>



  Amanda <editor at texas.net> wrote: 
As a poltergeist I will now say what I must say.

[Caveat: this is *not* aimed at the majority of the list, who appreciate the
time and energy the list adminstration puts in and the atmosphere it
creates.]
If you don't like the rules on this list.
If you feel you're being oppressed.
If you think you're being gagged.
If you feel your right to free speech is being curtailed.
If you think Penny or John or any other mods or elves are intolerant.
Or if you're simply into stirring things up for the hell of it..

Don't let the door hit you in the butt. Start your own group, and I wish you
joy of it, if you have a no-holds-barred, no-parameters, anything-goes
approach to the posting. Maybe you'll gain enough maturity to appreciate
what these mods and elves do, giving up so much of their time to keep this
list a flame-free and enjoyable place.

--Amandageist

Amanda, thumbs up from me! All that you mentioned is true! Everyone one of you work hard to keep this list flowing smoothly! Maturity is lacking in some and it is sad that they can not understand all that Penny and everyone has done for the enjoyment of all on this list. Most of the post of late you are right on about! I love learning more about the Potterverse through this list! That's why I joined, to learn and have fun learning from so many academic people on this list! It is sad when some just take something fun and twist it into something evil and ugly. Enough said there. We need more fun stuff on this list and there are many members out there old and new that have keep this list lively with fun info and pov's! Just reading outloud with my boys we got my husband hooked on HP and he was the biggest kid at the movie, more than once! He asks what's happening on the list, I tell him the gooAmandageist the posts that bother me go bye bye! I'm here to learn and have fun doing so and make a friend or many friends and help them if I can. You all keep up the great work your doing, I need you and so many on the list do! Standing behind and cheering you all on!

Schnoogles,

Wanda the Witch of Revere,Massachusetts and Her Very Merry Band of Muggles 100% 



---------------------------------
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk  Wed Feb 13 23:11:53 2002
From: kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk (Kathryn)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 23:11:53 -0000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Resemblence to characters, hi Jamieson, etc.
References: <1ED7E64AF1@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>
Message-ID: <001301c1b4e3$d46be060$ae4586d9@monica>

Everyone in the known world with the exception of 5 of the judges and the Russian couple I'd say from the reaction I've seen to it. There's an enquiry being set up into the standard of judging btw. Can't change the result tho, more's the pity. Of course the same thing happened (asn enquiry that is) after Torville and Dean failed to win in '94 (?) and they hoped it would stop results like this.

K
If an advisor says to me "My liege, he is but one man. What can one man possibly do?", I will reply "This." and kill the advisor.
http://minievil.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Rachel Bray 
  To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2002 5:23 PM
  Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Resemblence to characters, hi Jamieson, etc.
  So....does anyone else think the Canadians should have won 
  the gold in the pairs skating?



  Rachel Bray
  The Ohio State University
  Fees, Deposits and Disbursements

  ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________

  Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the group's Admin Files!
  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/

  Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying!

  Is your message...
  An announcement of merchandise, news etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements.
  Movie-related? Send it to HPFGU-Movie.
  Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups.
  None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter.
  Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com

  Unsubscribing? Email HPFGU-OTChatter-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
  ____________________________________________________________


  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From cindysphynx at home.com  Wed Feb 13 23:12:33 2002
From: cindysphynx at home.com (cindysphynx)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 23:12:33 -0000
Subject: A response
In-Reply-To: <a4ept3+vrej@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a4ert1+f2tc@eGroups.com>

Mafalda wrote: 

> It would be nice to hear from every moderator on this.
> 

Uh, OK.  You claim you'd like to hear from another moderator, so this 
is my opinion.

I am of the opinion that Mafalda's grievances fall into a few 
categories:

1.  Personal attacks in pursuit of a vendetta against two people.

2.  Complaints about list policy and how it is or is not formulated, 
which appear not to be founded upon knowledge of how decisions are 
actually made.

3.  Complaints that there are three banned topics, without regard to 
why these topics are banned.

Frankly, I see no reason for any of this to be discussed in OTChatter 
or any of the other boards.  I think Mafalda should contact the Mods 
if he/she has actual ideas about how to improve the boards (assuming 
that improving the boards is his/her goal).

Bottom line:  I joined the Magical Moderators (Penny, John, Neil and 
Amy) because I think they (and the Elves & Geists) run a great 
board.  It's the best board I've ever seen, in fact.  The astonishing 
growth of the list speaks for itself and is further evidence that the 
Mods run it quite well.  I enjoy working with the Mods and plan to do 
whatever I can to keep a very good thing going.  I believe that if 
Mafalda is serious about his/her concerns, he/she ought to call a 
halt to the anonymous attacks and simply contact the Mods.  

I'll be watching my in-box.

Cindy




From andrew_macian at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 13 23:28:18 2002
From: andrew_macian at yahoo.com (Andrew MacIan)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 15:28:18 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] A response
In-Reply-To: <a4ept3+vrej@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20020213232818.25972.qmail@web9507.mail.yahoo.com>

Greetings from Andrew!

Not the usual snappy lead-in, but a small amount of
history:

*Way* back when, I was one of the moderators for a
very large, very noisy and very flame-prone newsgroup.
 During that, erm, *experience* (for all you Hendrix
fans...), I learnt a valuable lesson or two.

The first one is:  You can't please everybody all of
the time, and all you'll get for trying is, well,
excrement.

The second is demonstrated below.

--- mafaldahopkirk <mafaldahopkirk at yahoo.com> wrote:
{snip} to the chase/lesson:


NOTE that the following may or may not be a quote from
Amanda; I've not taken time to check it.  Thus, please
do NOT presume that it is accurate, nor that I endorse
anything but the original quote, no matter what it
might be.

Potentially, I'll answer Amanda; perhaps that won't be
necessary.

Onward!


> Amandageist: To make my point. Penny and the
                                 *************
> moderators own the house
  ************************
> we're partying in. They have certain legal
  *****************

Note this, please.  This is *NOT* USENET; this is
*NOT* the WWW.

> obligations to the hosting
> service they must honor. They pay the bills and
> water the plants and 
> set
> out the onion dip. And they, because they do the
> list maintenance--own
> the house--have *every* right, andthe *obligation,*
> to tell the list
> when we're getting too loud, orobnoxious, or
> inflammatory. Don't start
> breaking the furniture. No feet through the TV,
> please.
> 
> Mafalda: The difference between a party and a list
> is the list is free
> to join. At parties there are discussions on certain
> topics which 
> liven
> up the party. There may be some topics that the
> party-giver may not 
> like
> but s/he doesn't kick the party-goers out because it
> is a topic the
> people are willing to listen to. The list makes it
> sound like the
> moderators aren't willing to listen to what we have
> to say. I've been 
> on
> the list and many lists before for nearly two years
> and when I first
> joined there were many topics (which are now banned)
> were freely
> discussed without vexation from the moderators. Even
> the mainlist 
> then,
> had many OT chatter topics before OT-Chatter was
> begun.

The lesson?  Amanda appears to be correct.  You don't
like the rules, leave. No two ways about it.  Either
you accept the rules or change the game.  You chose to
be here, you had the opportunity to ask about things
not covered in the FAQ(s) and had access to the
hosts/modertaors.  Instead, you choose to have a
rather (IMO) immature temper tantrum that does no one
any good.  Were I asked what chases off newbies, I
would categorically state that, in my direct
experience, people who choose behaviour patterns like
yours do so, *far* more often than does the moderation
style that I've seen here and in the archives.

Oh, and 'mafaldahopkirk'?  The other neat thing about
both USENET and the list is this:

*PLONK*

To the rest here, I remain,

Cordially,

Drieux

=====
ICQ # 76184391

'Each game of chess means there's one less
      Variation left to be played;
 Each day got through means one or two less
      Mistakes remain to be made.'
      --'Chess' by Sir Tim Rice

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
http://greetings.yahoo.com



From moongirlk at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 13 23:31:22 2002
From: moongirlk at yahoo.com (moongirlk)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 23:31:22 -0000
Subject: Resemblence to characters, hi Jamieson, etc.
In-Reply-To: <001301c1b4e3$d46be060$ae4586d9@monica>
Message-ID: <a4et0a+otcn@eGroups.com>

I'm really not Kathryn's yes-man, or woman or whatever.

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "Kathryn" <kcawte at k...> wrote:
> Everyone in the known world with the exception of 5 of the judges 
and the Russian couple I'd say from the reaction I've seen to it.

But yeah, what she said!  Except that I think even the Russian pair 
would probably agree that the gold should have gone to the Canadians, 
if somebody had the guts to ask them.  I've seen the Canadians 
interviewed half a dozen times, but still not them.  

The judging of figure skating has been a joke for a long time, and 
the ones that have gotten busted for cheating in the past aren't even 
banned, just suspended.  It's such a beautiful sport, it makes me sad 
to see it tainted.  I hope they fix it.

kimberly
who'd love to see Scotty Hamilton in charge.







From kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk  Thu Feb 14 00:32:17 2002
From: kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk (Kathryn)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 00:32:17 -0000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] A response
References: <20020213232818.25972.qmail@web9507.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <001301c1b4ef$0f413680$b82186d9@monica>

Hear, Hear.
Unpleasant arguements like this can kill a list.  Newbies generally (in my experience at any rate) tend to lurk for  a while and see what a list is like, in the case of arguements like this they will often run for the hills before ever posting anything. And as for the arguement that the banning of the Abanes subject was unfair to newbies who hadn't heard of him they can either use the search function on Yahoo (which personally I despise as I think it's a little useless on occassion) or they can do what I did and ask for people to fill me in *offlist* whaich several people did including the Mods, thank you kindly everyone who answered by the way.

K
If an advisor says to me "My liege, he is but one man. What can one man possibly do?", I will reply "This." and kill the advisor.
http://minievil.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Andrew MacIan 
  To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2002 11:28 PM
  Subject: Re: [HPFGU-OTChatter] A response


  Greetings from Andrew!
  The lesson?  Amanda appears to be correct.  You don't
  like the rules, leave. No two ways about it.  Either
  you accept the rules or change the game.  You chose to
  be here, you had the opportunity to ask about things
  not covered in the FAQ(s) and had access to the
  hosts/modertaors.  Instead, you choose to have a
  rather (IMO) immature temper tantrum that does no one
  any good.  Were I asked what chases off newbies, I
  would categorically state that, in my direct
  experience, people who choose behaviour patterns like
  yours do so, *far* more often than does the moderation
  style that I've seen here and in the archives.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From morrigan at byz.org  Thu Feb 14 03:29:04 2002
From: morrigan at byz.org (Morrigan //Vicki//)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 19:29:04 -0800
Subject: My SHIP is sinking...
In-Reply-To: <a4e9ob+i248@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <NFBBLPEOCLIKCDBACHIBCEOICPAA.morrigan@byz.org>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: pippin_999 [mailto:foxmoth at qnet.com]
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., Katze <jdumas at k...> wrote:
>
> > After reading various fanfics, I've found a very strange pattern
> occuris fics that end up H/Hr.  It seems that the impulse reaction
> is to pair Ron and Hermione, and Harry with either Ginny or x (I
> won't read ficswhere he's dead). What disturbs me is that Ron is
> either made to be the bad guy/bad husband, or he is killed off in
> order to make the Harry/Hermione happen. Why is this?
> >
> > Knut for your thoughts?
>
> Well, this is not really hard to understand. Draw yourself a nice
> hot bath, sprinkle in the salts and the bubbles, light a scented
> candle, slip into the soothing waters, smile as your head
> touches the bath pillow, close your eyes and think of... Ron?
>
> See, Ron doesn't cut it as a romantic fantasy.

I've been meaning to respond to this, but I've been a somewhat busy bunny
the last few days.  So, onward...

I personally think Ron is could be quite the romantic lead.  He's got a
great sense of humor (which is always #1 for me), is cute (redhead!!), and
is loyal.  I won't read fics where they kill Ron off.  Someone has to love
Ron, and that someone is me. *grin*

I have seperate SHIPs in canon and in fanon.  In canon, I lean somewhat
R/Hr, seeing a *slight* possibility of H/Hr, simply because I don't see
Ginny as yet well developed enough to be a suitable partner for Harry, and
there really are no other well-developed female characters, period.
Honestly, I don't much care who ends up with whom, as long as JKR makes it
work.  I trust in her enough that somehow she will.

In fanon, I'm the captain of unconventional SHIPs.  I like Harry/Ron and
Draco/Harry mostly.  Don't ask me why; I don't know.  I just know what I
read and what I write often - although not always - have these combinations.
I find slash more often than not more interesting than het fics, and when I
do write het (see Sex in the Village), it's still strange.  I find by
getting into these areas which I'm quite sure JKR will NEVER touch, I keep
myself from confusing canon/fanon characters.  It works for me; it may not
work for everyone.

Morrigan
Morrigan's Harry Potter Slash www.byz.org/~morrigan/hpslash.html




From editor at texas.net  Thu Feb 14 03:36:57 2002
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 21:36:57 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] A response
References: <a4ept3+vrej@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <007701c1b508$dbe0e780$fb7663d1@texas.net>

Mafalda said:

> I read from both sides, do a little
> research, find evidence before posting and make a intelligently worded
> argument instead of "Boo, I don't like how the mods behave on the
> list."

Amanda: Did you honestly really type this? That's *exactly* what your first
tirade was.

> This is a list where all discussions are supposely ok to use. Please
> note that the new members have no knowledge of the banned topics and
> they should be notified instead of being shot down so unnecessarily.

Amanda: Please note that the new members are *all*, without exception, sent
a personal welcome message by their list elf, usually within a day or two of
their joining, which gives them, among other information, the list
etiquette, which contains the banned topics. And also tells them that their
elf is at their service to help them if they have *any* questions or any
uncertainty about what should be posted. The elves fall over themselves
trying to provide this information to new members.

> Mafalda: This is exactly what I predicted at the end of my first post.
> You're merely sweeping this under the rug so your utopia of HPFGU can
> continue. And there are people who want to respond to this but are
> afraid to because of your statement.

Amanda: And preserving a utopia is bad how?

> Mafalda: I could be either a Mod or a List Elf or a Poltergeist, or I
> could be neither. I've been on the board and I know what goes on
> behind the scenes. It isn't pretty, believe me.

Amanda: I don't give you a lot of credence, personally. I've been on the
board and behind the scenes for a fair amount of time myself and I haven't
seen enough dirt-dealing, deal-making, persecution, or other racy activity
to fill a thimble. Depressingly honest and up-front lot, our admins.

> Mafalda: Yes they are his opinions, but John does not have a right to
> shoot off certain members just because he's a Moderator.

Amanda: Not every post from a moderator is official. Quite often they are
responding on the list as members. And it seemed to be the opinion of John,
member, rather than anything in an ADMIN message, to which you refer. And
John, member, can shoot off anyone he wants, and is subject to the same
criticism for doing so that any member would be. [Nor, by the bye, would
such criticism for doing so necessarily be public and on the list, which can
sometimes foster the impression that people just get away with it.]

> This is considered a rant. A democrat calling a republician "an incredible
> hulk of stupidity"  is a good example of a rant.

Amanda: No, no, no. That's an *insult.* A rant is what I posted previously.

> John on his apparent uncontrollable need
> to viputerate a member

Amanda: This sounds vagely sexy. And I like this word "viputerate."

> Penny and John may have qualities that may be useful for the
> list, but I have yet to see these qualities.

Amanda: That doesn't make a whole lot of difference. You do not have to see
those qualities. Penny and John do not have to establish their usefulness or
justify their existence for you. *You* have joined *their* list; if
anything, the onus is on you to show they were justified in letting you
join.

> I'm happy with the list and I don't intend to
> leave, I'm unhappy with how it is handled.

Amanda: You're unlikely to change how it is handled. You are likely to
change the flavor of the list that you claim to be happy with. If you're
happy with it, start showing some appreciation and change things
constructively rather than destructively.

> Mafalda: What Mr Abanes didn't know was that the person had cited him
> in
> their post, so he knew that even though he was cited as the author of
> these works, that he wouldn't be able to sue for copywright
> infrigement
> or plagerism.

Amanda: Were you here for the Abanes discussions? Mr. Abanes knew this
perfectly well, his complaint was a direct reply to the quoting post.

> Mafalda: On the OT-Chatter list, this statement has the strains of a
> dictatorship.

Amanda: So? You are talking about a *discussion group.* I can form a
discussion group and forbid anyone to say anything bad about Barry Manilow
if I want. Or to say anything negative about Santa Claus. If anyone doesn't
like my rules, I can pitch 'em. Tough.

> Mafalda: I am so highly insulted that you called me a coward.

Amanda: Great. I hoped you would be. I was very highly insulted that you
posted misinformation and inaccuracies about people who have done nothing to
deserve it, people who, by the way, are not afraid to post under their
names.

> And you
> didn't check the member directory properly enough to see that I did
> not
> unsuscribe as you said. You're an example of jumping to conclusions
> and
> calling a member names. That is unacceptable.

Amanda: So sorry I'm unacceptable. Go butt a stump.
 :-P

> Mafalda: The difference between a party and a list is the list is free
> to join. At parties there are discussions on certain topics which
> liven
> up the party. There may be some topics that the party-giver may not
> like
> but s/he doesn't kick the party-goers out because it is a topic the
> people are willing to listen to.

Amanda: No, but I *have* requested people at my gatherings to shift a topic
when some guests were getting upset. I have asked loud and upsetting people
to leave. If the people who were listening to them want to listen that
badly, they can leave with the loud, upsetting person. I act in the
interests of the majority of my guests.

> when I first
> joined there were many topics (which are now banned) were freely
> discussed without vexation from the moderators.

Amanda: This "many topics" still bemuses me, there *are* only three. There
only ever have been.

> Amanda, your behaviour states that you want me to leave,

Amanda: Perceptive. But I'd settle for you being a constructive member,
taking issues with the mods up with the mods, and discussing any of the
myriad infinity-minus-three interesting topics on the list.

> I am in no mood of creating a group while there is a group for
> off topic subjects (OT-Chatter) when I have subjects that are
> appropriate for off topic.

Amanda: It is not your decision which subjects are or are not appropriate.
It is the moderators' decision. You have joined someone else's group and
cannot dictate to them. The few subjects which we have been requested not to
discuss are reasonable and justified.

> To conclude my post with this: there are people who are trying to give
> me an unwelcome attitude to leave,

Amanda: That would be me. But I'm neither a moderator nor an elf, nor
speaking in an official capacity.

> there are people who are wondering
> about Abanes and the moderators refuse to continue the conversation.

Amanda: And they gave their perfectly sound legal reason for refusal, and
pointed out the way to the old messages should anyone curious want to read
them. Anyone "wondering about Abanes" will be able to see what he and we did
both right and wrong, with no further discussion needed.

> Which is an example of
> shooting off a poster, which can be considered as immature.

Amanda: Yeah. It can be. But you've been ranting about the *moderators*
doing it. I thought as a member I could discuss any topic I wanted.

--Amanda





From kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk  Thu Feb 14 03:59:42 2002
From: kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 03:59:42 -0000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] A response
References: <a4ept3+vrej@eGroups.com> <007701c1b508$dbe0e780$fb7663d1@texas.net>
Message-ID: <000701c1b50c$09d9fac0$b33086d9@monica>

Damn, I just wasted a perfectly good cup of coffee thanks to that remark.

K
Chortling and mopping up coffee from her keyboard
If an advisor says to me "My liege, he is but one man. What can one man possibly do?", I will reply "This." and kill the advisor.
http://minievil.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Amanda 
  To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2002 3:36 AM
  Subject: Re: [HPFGU-OTChatter] A response
  > John on his apparent uncontrollable need
  > to viputerate a member

  Amanda: This sounds vagely sexy. And I like this word "viputerate."



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From cassandraclaire at mail.com  Thu Feb 14 04:54:45 2002
From: cassandraclaire at mail.com (cassandraclaire73)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 04:54:45 -0000
Subject: A response
In-Reply-To: <a4ept3+vrej@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a4fful+mh1k@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "mafaldahopkirk" <mafaldahopkirk at y...> 
wrote:
> 
> Mafalda: I could be either a Mod or a List Elf or a Poltergeist, or 
I could be neither. I've been on the board and I know what goes on 
> behind the scenes. It isn't pretty, believe me."

Really? Well, I had lunch with JK Rowling yesterday, on board her 
sailing ship The Saucy Sue. She told me everything that's going to 
happen in Book Seven. Harry and Hermione are going to get married, 
and Ron will sell his family down the river for fifty knuts and a 
goat. And now I am going to post all this information for you 
anonymously, so you can't possibly check up on my story, and then I'm 
going to exhort you to "believe me", even though I like flaming lists 
without using my name, because it's a great way to engender trust. 
But you guys should believe me, because -- because I say so!

*bursts into tears of vexed ire*

Excuse me, I have to go viputerate someone now.


Cassandra




From kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk  Thu Feb 14 05:18:26 2002
From: kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk (Kathryn)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 05:18:26 -0000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: A response
References: <a4fful+mh1k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <001001c1b517$0900b0c0$491286d9@monica>

LOL! Okay you're actually abusing sarcasm now :)

K
If an advisor says to me "My liege, he is but one man. What can one man possibly do?", I will reply "This." and kill the advisor.
http://minievil.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: cassandraclaire73 
  To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2002 4:54 AM
  Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: A response


  --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "mafaldahopkirk" <mafaldahopkirk at y...> 
  wrote:
  > 
  > Mafalda: I could be either a Mod or a List Elf or a Poltergeist, or 
  I could be neither. I've been on the board and I know what goes on 
  > behind the scenes. It isn't pretty, believe me."

  Really? Well, I had lunch with JK Rowling yesterday, on board her 
  sailing ship The Saucy Sue. She told me everything that's going to 
  happen in Book Seven. Harry and Hermione are going to get married, 
  and Ron will sell his family down the river for fifty knuts and a 
  goat. And now I am going to post all this information for you 
  anonymously, so you can't possibly check up on my story, and then I'm 
  going to exhort you to "believe me", even though I like flaming lists 
  without using my name, because it's a great way to engender trust. 
  But you guys should believe me, because -- because I say so!

  *bursts into tears of vexed ire*

  Excuse me, I have to go viputerate someone now.


  Cassandra


        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
              ADVERTISEMENT
             
       
       

  ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________

  Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the group's Admin Files!
  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/

  Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying!

  Is your message...
  An announcement of merchandise, news etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements.
  Movie-related? Send it to HPFGU-Movie.
  Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups.
  None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter.
  Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com

  Unsubscribing? Email HPFGU-OTChatter-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
  ____________________________________________________________


  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From alyeskakc at netzero.net  Thu Feb 14 05:58:13 2002
From: alyeskakc at netzero.net (alyeskakc)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 05:58:13 -0000
Subject: A response and a rant
In-Reply-To: <a4ept3+vrej@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a4fjll+3qhc@eGroups.com>

I was going to stay out of this but the more I read the angrier I 
get. I first joined the main list about 10 1/2 months ago, at that 
time it was just shy of 1200 members. I've seen it grow three fold 
since then. That goes for this list as well, only it's grown the same 
amount in 9 months time.

Over the past 4 or 5 months I've seen a very ugly change in HP4GU and 
the fandom as a whole. *Some*(not all)of the "newer than me members" 
have come in with a serious attitude problem and/or chip on their 
shoulder. They seem IMO to be hell bent on starting flame wars, 
posting for the sake of controversy, or just general whinging because 
they feel slighted in some way by someone. Personal attacks seem to 
be occuring more and more often it seems. It's really sad that 
something we all enjoy has come down to this petty and somewhat 
childish back biting. 

Rules and banned topics are there for a reason. I was there for the 
Abanes fiasco and let me tell you it was ugly on both sides of the 
fence, extremely ugly. John did apologized for bringing it up again, 
even in passing to prove a point. I was not part of the list when the 
US presidential election "debate" was going on but I can imagine what 
it was like and I don't even want to go to the holocost. 

These topics religion/politics may start with the best of intentions 
but they don't usually end up that way. People as a general rule can 
not remain wholely objective, personal opinion does get in the way. 
These are what I call *Hot Button* issues and they really have no 
place here. Yes even in OT. People tend to get very passionate about 
their beliefs and harsh words can be exchanged in the heat of the 
moment, even by moderators, we are all human and therefore not 
infallible. Everyone makes mistakes everyone has a bad day. Maybe 
something was said a little harsher than needed to be, and then again 
maybe it was the harsh words that finally got through after being 
said nicely a hundred times. 

I think John and Penny do a wonderful job keeping the peace on such a 
huge and diverse list as do the other 20 Moderators and List elves.

If you Mafalda have a problem with John or Penny why didn't you 
address them directly, in private? Why do it on list? Since you did 
it on list then why not do it under your own name instead of hiding 
behind this one? I checked the main list membership there is no 
MafaldaHopkirk there and according to the join date here in OT you 
joined 02/13/2002. 

You espouse about how people shouldn't be afraid to express their 
views here so why hide behind the veil yourself. Are you so ashamed 
of what you put out here that you won't put your name to it? If you 
and views want to be respected then don't hide behind a fake name.  
It makes you look like you just want to cause trouble. Maybe what 
Amanda said was rooted in some truth. 

No I am no part of the Mod Team and my views(and typos) are my own 
and I am not ashamed to use my real name.

Kristin





From alyeskakc at netzero.net  Thu Feb 14 06:14:49 2002
From: alyeskakc at netzero.net (alyeskakc)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 06:14:49 -0000
Subject: A response
In-Reply-To: <a4fful+mh1k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a4fkkp+u438@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "cassandraclaire73" 
<cassandraclaire at m...> wrote:

> Really? Well, I had lunch with JK Rowling yesterday, on board her 
> sailing ship The Saucy Sue. She told me everything that's going to 
> happen in Book Seven. Harry and Hermione are going to get married, 
> and Ron will sell his family down the river for fifty knuts and a 
> goat. And now I am going to post all this information for you 
> anonymously, so you can't possibly check up on my story, and then 
I'm going to exhort you to "believe me", even though I like flaming 
lists  without using my name, because it's a great way to engender 
trust. But you guys should believe me, because -- because I say so!
> 
> *bursts into tears of vexed ire*
> 
> Excuse me, I have to go viputerate someone now.

OMG. You mean that's not a real fact.  *falls out of chair*  :)

And um excuse my ignorance but is viputerate a *real* word? Is it 
even English? I tried looking it up in Webster's and Oxford am very 
perpelexed.

  Kristin




From andrew_macian at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 14 07:09:34 2002
From: andrew_macian at yahoo.com (Andrew MacIan)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 23:09:34 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Long life (was Facing The Challenge Web Site)
In-Reply-To: <a4d92s+dem5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20020214070934.91890.qmail@web9503.mail.yahoo.com>

Greetings from Andrew!

"Gort!  Klaatu barada nictu!"

--- davewitley <dfrankiswork at netscape.net> wrote:
> Andrew MacIan wrote:
> > Greetings from Andrew!
> 
> Greetings (I always want to add 'take me to your
> leader' at this 
> point).
> 

I'd love to, but after the last election here in the
US....

{shrug}

> > In this portion of what has been a surprisingly
> long
> > life, 
> 
> How so? Were you attacked by an evil dark wizard in
> the cradle, or 
> are you reflecting philosophically as you enter your
> 16th decade, 
> like Dumbledore?  Or is it just another Vietnam
> reference?

Reflecting that, after having flatlined in Nam, things
have been easy by comparison;

Reflecting that, after having given a lecture on
calculus that is so watered down that my old student
house's refectory soup would resemble track lube by
comaprison, that my non-majors students might just be
on the edge of grasping a couple of things;

Reflecting that, on balance, I really don't understand
the point of your question.

Please clarify.

Cheers,

Drieux

=====
ICQ # 76184391

'Each game of chess means there's one less
      Variation left to be played;
 Each day got through means one or two less
      Mistakes remain to be made.'
      --'Chess' by Sir Tim Rice

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
http://greetings.yahoo.com



From bludger_witch at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 14 08:36:17 2002
From: bludger_witch at yahoo.com (Dinah)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 09:36:17 +0100
Subject: Happy Valentine's day to you all!!!
Message-ID: <00d401c1b532$ae1839a0$da9207d5@oemcomputer>

*schnoogles my luveees* I hope you have a good time today. 
 

Misty-Eyed

To all my crushes already gone and still to come 



Head over heels,

nose over toes,

my tears won't dry

my aching heart woes.

 

Those eyes, those smile,

these hands, this walk

I swoon and I pant

when you talk.

 

Every move is so sexy,

I know it is true

as long as you're here

I can't take my eyes off you.

 

And because my body reacts as it does

and I lie awake in my bed

I'll suffer insomnia, faintness and

headbumps

and adore you until I am dead.

  



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com  Thu Feb 14 09:26:54 2002
From: Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com (Aberforth's Goat)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 10:26:54 +0100
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: A response
References: <a4fful+mh1k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <006c01c1b539$be9bcf10$0200a8c0@shasta>

Cassie viscously viputerated,

> Ron will sell his family down the river for fifty knuts and a
> goat.

Nooooooo! I won't go! They'll have to drag me away. I'll butt 'em
and bite 'em and knock the corn pone out of 'em. They'll have to
kill me first. They'll - Abe - help - Aaaaaaaaab ....

Bwaa haaaa baaaaaaaaaaaaaa -


* * * * * *

P.S. Happy Valentine's Day everybody - and don't forget to love
somebody today!



_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From macloudt at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Feb 14 10:36:21 2002
From: macloudt at yahoo.co.uk (macloudt)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 10:36:21 -0000
Subject: The Eurasian Look
In-Reply-To: <004401c1b48e$e15cde00$371cddcb@price>
Message-ID: <a4g3v5+rl03@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "Tabouli" <tabouli at u...> wrote:
> WARNING: Exhaustive discussion of more than you ever wanted to know 
about the inheritance of Eurasian features follows...

Do y'know, I grabbed a cup of coffee and made myself comfy.  I *love* 
reading your posts, honestly :)

<snip lots of groovy stuff>
To cap things off in the odd stakes, my parents know this couple 
where the husband is a very blond, blue-eyed Dutchman, and the wife 
is a Filipina.  All three of their children came out blond!  The wife 
was chagrined.  "I keep hoping that at last I'll get my raven-haired 
beauty, but I keep getting golden-haired beauties instead!"  Two of 
them did darken to medium brown later, but all the same, I think it 
must be the Spanish blood in the Filipino population at work.

Just a snippet, but this reminded me of a girl I knew back in 
Montreal.  She lived on the Kanawake First Nations Reserve, and was 
therefore considered to be a full-blooded Mohawk by the Canadian 
Government (I could go on for ages about non-Natives defining the 
status of Natives, but I'll save that for another day).  BUT...she 
had very pale skin, loads of freckles, a rather long nose, and bright 
red hair.  Both her parents, though, looked Native, and apparently 
had rather a shock when this girl popped out!  This, I would think, 
is a classic example of European genes gone into hiding until the 
right genetic mixture was created.

I dropped science after grade 10 as I'm no good at pure sciences, but 
have always had an interest in genetics.  So thanks again for the 
essay, Tabouli!

Mary Ann :)
> 
> So (says Tabouli to her by now very small audience), to answer 
Kimberly's question, I think the junky novelist is pushing it a bit.  
By my calculations, the child would probably have, at the most 
Caucasian, wavy reddish brown hair, light pinkish olive skin, hazel 
to green and somewhat olive-y shaped eyes, and somewhere between a 
dainty, bridgeless Japanese nose and a large, bridged Irish nose.  
The only save for the writer is the fair-skinned, natural Japanese 
curls/surprise Caucasian ancestor and generations of red-haired blue-
eyed Irish escape clause (a la Dutch-Filipina couple).  Perhaps the 
Japanese wife had fair skin and both natural curls and a dash 
of "white blood" somewhere in her ancestry, and the Irish husband was 
from such potently pure red-curls and blue eyes stock, their daughter 
miraculously fluked a very Caucasian appearance, conveniently enough 
for the plot...
> 
> Tabouli.
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 14 11:51:57 2002
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naamagatus)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 11:51:57 -0000
Subject: Viputerating (was Re: A response)
In-Reply-To: <a4fkkp+u438@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a4g8ct+541t@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "alyeskakc" <alyeskakc at n...> wrote:
> > 
> 
> And um excuse my ignorance but is viputerate a *real* word? Is it 
> even English? I tried looking it up in Webster's and Oxford am very 
> perpelexed.
> 
>   Kristin


Nah. It's "vituperate". The extroadinary Mafalda typoed and Amanda 
and Cassie are being rather ruthless about it. But then, she really 
did ask for it.

Naama, indignant on John, Penny and the rest of our amazing Mods and 
Elves behalf.




From witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 14 13:11:03 2002
From: witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com (Wanda Mallett)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 05:11:03 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Happy Valentine's day to you all!!!
In-Reply-To: <00d401c1b532$ae1839a0$da9207d5@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <20020214131103.26715.qmail@web13704.mail.yahoo.com>


 
  Dinah <bludger_witch at yahoo.com> wrote: 
*schnoogles my luveees* I hope you have a good time today. 


Same to you Dinah! For my Valentine's surprise, Roy pre-ordered the HP movie in DVD! He gave me the print outs on the order this morning! Wow alot of extras! He made my Valentine's Day with my favorite topic and off topic, Harry Potter! Hope everyone enjoys their Valentine's Day today!

Schnoogles,

Wanda the Witch of Revere, Massachusetts and Her Very Merry Band of Muggles 100%



---------------------------------
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 14 13:58:07 2002
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (lupinesque)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 13:58:07 -0000
Subject: Facing The Challenge Web Site (long)
In-Reply-To: <a4b6lq+js3p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a4gfpf+uv7g@eGroups.com>

ChrisHolloway999 wrote:

>  for Christian 
> parents who are interested in the debate about whether the HP books 
> could lead to kids developing an interest in the occult there is a 
> very good article at  www.facingthechallenge.org/potter.htm.

 <snip>

> I think the article at  www.facingthechallenge.org/potter.htm gives 
a 
> balanced and objective analysis of Harry Potter and aims to help 
> towards a more reasoned and thought-through response to the Harry 
> Potter film and books

Ah, my favorite two topics:  HP and religion!  <Amy rubs hands 
together gleefully>

The article proposes to "[explore] the different Christian responses," 
which seems very promising.  I would think that for a Christian trying 
to make any difficult decision, it would be most helpful if the person 
advising them would admit, "Christians take a variety of points of 
view on this question--here are their arguments."  The article starts 
off by offering two rather extreme, and in the author's mind, 
apparently equally problematic views:

"There have been two kinds of response by Christian parents to Harry 
Potter:

  "'I can't see any harm in it. It encourages the kids to read. It 
gets them thinking
  about good and evil. It's just a story - the kids know it isn't 
real. It's no different
  from Roald Dahl or C S Lewis. I'll probably take the kids to see the 
film myself
  when it comes out.' 
  "'It's dangerous. It encourages an interest in the occult. We should 
avoid it. I
  won't let my kids see it at all.' 

"Is there a better way?"

I was wary because of the rather simplistic division, but I could see 
that the writer was trying to set up something more complex.  "Great," 
I thought, "we're going to hear some views from Christians who 
actively *embrace* Harry Potter.  And we'll see some give-and-take 
between them and Christians who think they've got it all backwards.  
This should be really challenging!"  Furthermore, the article had 
promised to "[encourage] careful thought and discussion, whatever 
conclusions you and your family reach."  So I read on with hope, but 
was disappointed.  Instead of offering several Christian alternatives 
to match the (at least) several Christian attitudes one finds towards 
the books, the article offers one alternative:  treat HP with great 
caution, because although it isn't the end of the world, it isn't a 
good thing, either.  Thus the article advises that parents think about 
how they will respond if their child takes an interest in Harry 
Potter, have alternatives if they decide to forbid it, and "spend time 
helping [the children] think Christianly and critically" about what 
they read.  While these are good pieces of advice any Christian parent 
would be glad to follow (well, okay, there are always those 
know-nothings who don't want their kids to think critically at all, 
but we can set that aside), the absence of a positive Christian view 
of HP is quite glaring if one knows the literature.

Another disappointment is that the set-up to the questions, and their 
phrasing, are very leading.  The questions "How does the worldview of 
Harry Potter fit in with a Christian worldview?  How does it differ?" 
follow a paragraph on the absence of God in HP and three quotes that 
all take the same point of view (I'll return to the specifics of the 
p.o.v. in a bit).  This is not a very good way to stimulate 
discussion.  It is a good way to get people thinking in your track and 
staying there.
     
But to turn to one of the specific questions--ah, here's a meaty one. 
 The question before us is "good and evil."  The article states, "It's 
often been argued that the Harry Potter books and films have a strong 
emphasis on good vs. evil," gives two quotes to this effect, and then 
says that this argument is naive.  The study questions that follow 
are:

"How is the conflict between good and evil portrayed in the world of 
Harry Potter? How is it similar to the Christian understanding? How is 
it different?"

I realize that study questions are always overly simplistic, but 
still, that "the Christian understanding" irks.  What *is* "the" 
Christian understanding of good and evil?  Christian sects and 
theologians have a wide variety of opinions, and the point at which 
some Christians disagree with Harry Potter is precisely the point at 
which they disagree with some other Christians:  whether it is 
advisable (or indeed moral) to portray "the conflict between good and 
evil [as] very confused."

See, I believe that this conflict *is* confused ("confusing" would be 
a better word, I think, but I am quoting the website).  The great 
difficulty of being a good person is that it is so frequently very 
difficult to know what is right or wrong, especially if one looks at 
the ultimate end of one's actions.  E.g., was Harry right to keep 
Sirius and Lupin from killing Pettigrew?  Christian arguments pro 
might include mercy, justice (i.e., Pettigrew may deserve death, but 
only following due process) and various Biblical prohibitions on 
capital punishment (Matt. 5:38, John 8:3-7).  Christian arguments con 
might include the evils that result from Pettigrew's escape (the 
murders committed by Voldemort, etc.) and various exhortations to 
capital punishment (Ex. 21--many examples, Lev. 21--many examples, 
Deut. 19, etc.).  And of course there is the matter of judging Harry 
as we would a real human being, i.e. as someone who doesn't know the 
next step in the story.  He thinks Peter is going to Azkaban; he 
doesn't know that he will escape, nor that he will be one of the 
deciding factors in Voldemort's return to power.  We can, of course, 
refrain from judging Harry and still judge that *JKR* is sending the 
message that good deeds sometimes yield evil results; and what if she 
is?  There is nothing un-Christian in believing that the good suffer 
while the evil flourish, at least in the short run (Eccl. 4:1, etc.; 
Acts 7:58 and countless other examples).  (Those who respond that all 
will be well in heaven should then assume the same of JKR's world, and 
be reasurred that rewards await Cedric and the others.)

I can't pretend to be giving a Christian view; I am not a Christian.  
But many commentators on Harry Potter are, including members of this 
list, and many of them, like countless other Christians I know, 
believe that it can be very difficult indeed to judge whether an 
action is good or evil in its consequences--that this can be known, in 
fact, only in the end times by the mind of God.  This is not at all a 
relativistic point of view; it is not exempting Harry, JKR, or any 
Christian from making moral choices; it is simply admitting that we 
cannot know how the results of our actions will turn out.  Even in the 
moment it is not easy to know what is right and what is wrong.  Lying 
is wrong, but some Christians believe it is sometimes justified in 
service to a greater end; killing is wrong, but it's justified in the 
Bible all over the place.  

I think the Facing the Challenge article would be greatly strengthened 
by referring to Christians who take this view (and parallel ones for 
the other questions).  The purpose of the article is to help 
Christians, parents in particular, to decide whether Harry Potter is 
consonant with their religion.  Surely one cannot pull out a single 
thread from Christianity and solve their dilemma for them that way.  
It would be like telling someone who is wondering whether to baptize 
their child at birth, "Oh yes, here's the proof" and offering them a 
few Catholic writings with the Biblical proof-texts used by Catholics. 
 Surely one would have to at least add, "On the other hand, the 
Baptists say . . . " and offer some arguments for adult baptism, along 
with the Biblical proof-texts used by Baptists.  Otherwise one is all 
but deciding the question by careful selection of which Christian 
opinion one will cite.

For another example from the same section (can you tell this is one of 
my favorite theological questions?):  in Rowling's portrayal of good 
and evil, the article says, "'Good' people do bad things. 'Bad' people 
sometimes do good things."  According to the author, this is a 
problem--in fact, it is opposed to "the Christian understanding" (that 
monolithic Christianity again).

My understanding of *most* Christianity is that it does not believe 
people are all one or the other.  Biblical examples abound; those who 
are portrayed as the wisest and best are also deeply flawed.  David 
had his faithful soldier murdered in order to cover up his own 
adultery (2 Sam 11); Solomon had a thousand sexual partners (1 Kings 
11:3); Paul said of himself, "the good that I would I do not: but the 
evil which I would not, that I do" (Rom 7:19).  Is this confusing?  
Well, yes, it is, but "sin dwelleth" even in the saints (Rom 7:20), so 
confusion is our lot.  Fortunately we are not without guides.  JKR 
does not endorse bad acts just because they are done by generally good 
people, any more than the Bible endorses the sins of David, Solomon or 
Paul.

In fact, when people praise HP by saying "it's about the struggle 
between good and evil," I tend to yawn.  Saying a book is about good 
and evil is like saying it's about love:  it's so general as to be 
almost meaningless.  So, what *specifically* does Harry Potter tell us 
about the conflict between good and evil?  A lot of things:  that it 
is so important that it's better to die than to go over to the side of 
evil (PS: Harry's decision to go after the Stone), that it costs 
dearly and isn't won without sacrifice and loss (GF: Cedric), that the 
people who are unpleasant are not necessarily the people who do the 
greatest harm (i.e. they're not "the bad guys"/Voldemort's supporters) 
(GF: Snape), that evil can result from seemingly trivial personality 
flaws (CS: Lockhart), that stubbornness and pride can lead otherwise 
good people to allow evil to prosper (GF: Fudge), etc. etc.  I don't 
think any of these messages are contradictory to Christianity.  Some 
Christians might think they are, but point by point I could show you 
Christian theologians, Biblical texts, etc. who take the opposite 
view.

For one final example, the article is troubled by the fact that Harry 
Potter is not an explicitly religious text.  

"One of the greatest dangers in Harry Potter may be that it doesn't 
recognise any genuine supernatural and moral order. There is no God in 
Potter's world."

This is the claim I find hardest to understand.  Many Christians would 
be mindboggled at the thought that a book is "dangerous" if it is not 
explicitly Christian.  Can one not illuminate truths held by 
Christians unless one mentions God?  The LOTR parallels have been done 
to death, but Middle Earth is a perfect example of a world without the 
Christian God (a world, in fact, whose cosmology explicitly 
contradicts both Genesis and evolution) whose overall message can 
nevertheless be interpreted as consonant with Christian morality.  In 
short, it makes no attempt to retell the Christian story or even to 
keep from contradicting it, but it conveys its messages nonetheless.  
Yet this article would seem to say that this is impossible; that a 
secular story cannot have a spiritual message that is true and good; 
that all stories must either be from Christian texts or new Christian 
allegories or else they are anti-Christian.  Rowling is silent on the 
origin of the moral order; so are most novelists.  This does not mean 
they don't believe there is one.  Again, Christians who write such 
novels and who praise such novels abound.

I have no objection to an article that tries to argue that Harry 
Potter is contradictory to Christianity and should be handled with 
care if at all.  However, this article does just this while *claiming* 
to be offering a wide variety of Christian opinions and options.  If 
the author is sincere in trying to do the latter, I would suggest 
adding links to Alan Jacobs's article "Harry Potter's Magic" 
(www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft0001/reviews/jacobs.html); Connie 
Neal's book "What's a Christian to Do with Harry Potter?"; and Massimo 
Introvigne's article "Harry Potter, a Christian Hero?".  These are 
just off-the-top-of-my-head valuable resources for any Christian 
trying to sort out Harry Potter and will balance the biases of the 
article as currently written.  I recommend them not because I believe 
that HP is compatible with Christianity and want people to reach that 
conclusion, but because I agree with your stated aim of helping people 
to reach a critical, faithful response to HP or any cultural 
phenomenon.  Non-Christian though I am, I have faith in people's 
ability to find the truth using their own minds, spurred by the 
insights of other thoughtful people of faith, and aided by grace.

Thanks for the thought-provoking link.

Amy Z





From ftah3 at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 14 13:59:08 2002
From: ftah3 at yahoo.com (ftah3)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 13:59:08 -0000
Subject: Viputerating (was Re: A response)
In-Reply-To: <a4g8ct+541t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a4gfrc+tr9l@eGroups.com>

Please don't be offended naamagatus, but I'm the kind of person who 
Freudien slips as soon as others do, and mispells in response to 
others' mispellings, and so I loved this:

> extroadinary

LOL.  :-)

Mahoney





From blpurdom at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 14 14:18:24 2002
From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 14:18:24 -0000
Subject: Placing the "viputeration" where it belongs
In-Reply-To: <000701c1b50c$09d9fac0$b33086d9@monica>
Message-ID: <a4ggvg+kcrh@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "Kathryn Cawte" <kcawte at k...> wrote:
> Damn, I just wasted a perfectly good cup of coffee thanks to that 
remark.
> 
> K
> Chortling and mopping up coffee from her keyboard
 
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: Amanda 
>   To: HPFGU-OTChatter at y... 
>   Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2002 3:36 AM
>   Subject: Re: [HPFGU-OTChatter] A response
>   > John on his apparent uncontrollable need
>   > to viputerate a member
> 
>   Amanda: This sounds vagely sexy. And I like this 
> word "viputerate."
> 

Apparently "Mafalda" was attempting to use the word "vituperate" 
meaning "To find fault with abusively; rail at; berate; scold. See 
synomyms under ABUSE."  It is from the Latin "vituperatus" 
and "vitupero" meaning to blame or scold.  The most common English 
form is the adjective "vituperative."  It hardly reflects well on a 
person who's trying to make a point to use obscure words and then 
misspell them.  

(For instance, "iterate," to mean "repeat" is a perfectly legitimate 
English word, but it is more common to use "reiterate," meaning to 
re-repeat.  Saying "iterate" to mean "repeat" just sounds 
pretentious.  If "Mafalda" was going for pretentious--and it does in 
fact seem that that was the goal--the effect was pretty much ruined 
by the bad spelling.)

And frankly, if anyone was being "vituperative" it was "Mafalda."

--Barb
(who has a big old Oxford dictionary and isn't afraid to use it)





From s_ings at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 14 14:35:20 2002
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 09:35:20 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Happy Valentine's day to you all!!!
In-Reply-To: <00d401c1b532$ae1839a0$da9207d5@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <20020214143520.31959.qmail@web14606.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Dinah <bludger_witch at yahoo.com> wrote:
> *schnoogles my luveees* I hope you have a good time
> today. 
>  
<snip delightful poem>

Why, thank you, Dinah. Happy Valentine's Day to all!

I got part of my Valentine's Day gift last night, a
very large bouquet of flowers (roses, lilies,
carnations, and the like). I think he's trying to
psych me out on the cake I asked him to bake. He made
one last night for someone else (that's his job) and
when I asked about mine he just said "I thought we'd
been down that road?" (Meaning when I first asked him
to bake me a cake for Valentine's day he shrugged,
gave me an enigmatic smile and said, "Valentine's Day?
I'm supposed to give you something?".) My response to
his comment last night was, "I don't think I followed
you down that road.", so I still don't know if I'm
getting a cake.

Sheryll, crossing her fingers for a heart-shaped Black
Forest cake

______________________________________________________________________ 
Web-hosting solutions for home and business! http://website.yahoo.ca



From bray.262 at osu.edu  Thu Feb 14 09:44:22 2002
From: bray.262 at osu.edu (Rachel Bray)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 09:44:22 EST5EDT
Subject: Happy VD everyone!  :-)
Message-ID: <2F31BF476A@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>

I'm dressed in black from head to toe along with all my 
other friends without boyfriends this year.  This is a 
tradition we've had since high school and it still lives.  
Unfortunately, I did enjoy NOT being in the club for 10 
years but.....life goes on.

So tonight, we're all going out to eat at a very nice 
restaurant, taking someone else's bill from the table so 
we're not buying our own dinner and having a wonderful time 
with the group of people that love us no matter what.

I know, kind of pathetic.....but it works.  We have a great 
time and we look so funny, all dressed in black, knocking 
back drinks and laughing loudly about how "loved" we feel.

Happy Valentine's Day, everyone on the list!  If I could, 
I'd send you all chocolates and hugs.

Rachel Bray
The Ohio State University
Fees, Deposits and Disbursements

Inigo: That Vizzini, he can *fuss*.
Fezzik: Fuss, fuss... I think he like to scream at *us*.
Inigo: Probably he means no *harm*.
Fezzik: He's really very short on *charm*.
Inigo: You have a great gift for rhyme.
Fezzik: Yes, yes, some of the time.
Vizzini: Enough of that!
Inigo: Fezzik, are there rocks ahead?
Fezzik: If there are, we all be dead!
Vizzini: No more rhymes now, I mean it!
Fezzik: Anybody want a peanut?
Vizzini: AAHHHHHH!!
          - The Princess Bride



From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 14 14:58:52 2002
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (lupinesque)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 14:58:52 -0000
Subject: A response
In-Reply-To: <20020213232818.25972.qmail@web9507.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <a4gjbc+3csd@eGroups.com>

Andrew MacIan wrote:

> The lesson?  Amanda appears to be correct.  You don't
> like the rules, leave. No two ways about it.  Either
> you accept the rules or change the game.  

With due respect and thanks to Drieux, I do want to reiterate that 
there is a third option:  politely, and in accordance with the 
current rules (namely, offlist), send your thoughts to the 
Moderators, where they will receive grateful and serious attention.

The Moderators are very willing to change the rules.  That's why the 
banned topics and other rule changes have been made all along--because 
 unforeseen bones of contention emerged (the U.S. Presidential 
election) or the list changed (went from 300 to 3000 members) and so 
new needs had to be addressed.  The list is a benevolent dictatorship, 
not a democracy, but anyone who has suggestions, complaints, or praise 
has our ears.

(BTW, Amanda is wrong about the lack of dirt over on the Mods list.  
I've been carrying on a torrid affair with Neil for three months, 
having always had a thing for chrome, and I happen to know that Cindy 
only got made a Mod because she bribed Penny with three free months of 
babysitting.)

Amy




From Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com  Thu Feb 14 14:59:37 2002
From: Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com (Aberforth's Goat)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 15:59:37 +0100
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Happy Valentine's day to you all!!!
References: <20020214143520.31959.qmail@web14606.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <011101c1b568$394da2a0$0200a8c0@shasta>

<notices that everybody else is writing poetry and baking cakes>

<grouches>

So, am I, like, the *only* person around here who has the flu,
two sick kids and a stressed out wife?? My wife and I declared
our love to each other on the 12th of February back in 1992
(count 'em kids ... that's T - E - N years) and had rather
ambitious plans for this evening.

At the moment, a decent night's sleep sounds ambitious enough ...

Bghcough!

Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray)
_______________________

"Of course, I'm not entirely sure he can read, so that may not
have
been bravery...."



_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From s_ings at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 14 15:00:27 2002
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 10:00:27 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Happy VD everyone!  :-)
In-Reply-To: <2F31BF476A@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>
Message-ID: <20020214150027.14757.qmail@web14604.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Rachel Bray <bray.262 at osu.edu> wrote:
> I'm dressed in black from head to toe along with all
> my 
> other friends without boyfriends this year.  This is
> a 
> tradition we've had since high school and it still
> lives.  
> Unfortunately, I did enjoy NOT being in the club for
> 10 
> years but.....life goes on.
> 
> So tonight, we're all going out to eat at a very
> nice 
> restaurant, taking someone else's bill from the
> table so 
> we're not buying our own dinner and having a
> wonderful time 
> with the group of people that love us no matter
> what.
> 
> I know, kind of pathetic.....but it works.  We have
> a great 
> time and we look so funny, all dressed in black,
> knocking 
> back drinks and laughing loudly about how "loved" we
> feel.
> 
> Happy Valentine's Day, everyone on the list!  If I
> could, 
> I'd send you all chocolates and hugs.
> 
> Rachel Bray
> The Ohio State University
> Fees, Deposits and Disbursements

That doesn't sound pathetic at all, sounds like a lot
of fun to me. There's not much I like better than
going out to dinner. Can I join you all? I know, I got
flowers and all, but hubby left for work at 8:30 this
morning and won't be home until sometime around 9:30
tonight. I'm spending most of Valentine's Day watching
sappy movies with my teenage daughter (she's off
school for the day). Perhaps we could combine my
movies with your dinner/drinks and everyone could have
fun? :)

Sheryll, also willing to share chocolate and hugs with
all in need

=====
"We need to be united and strong. We'll have losses and scares, sure. And you'll be there for each other, helping each other through the bad times."
 blpurdom - Harry Potter and the Psychic Serpent, Chapter 26

______________________________________________________________________ 
Web-hosting solutions for home and business! http://website.yahoo.ca



From s_ings at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 14 15:06:20 2002
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 10:06:20 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Happy Valentine's day to you all!!!
In-Reply-To: <011101c1b568$394da2a0$0200a8c0@shasta>
Message-ID: <20020214150620.40367.qmail@web14606.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Aberforth's Goat <Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com>
wrote:
> <notices that everybody else is writing poetry and
> baking cakes>
> 
> <grouches>
> 
> So, am I, like, the *only* person around here who
> has the flu,
> two sick kids and a stressed out wife?? My wife and
> I declared
> our love to each other on the 12th of February back
> in 1992
> (count 'em kids ... that's T - E - N years) and had
> rather
> ambitious plans for this evening.
> 
> At the moment, a decent night's sleep sounds
> ambitious enough ...
> 
> Bghcough!
> 
> Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray)

Awwww..... the goat isn't feeling well. Am sending
virtual chicken soup for you and the kids and
chocolate for your stressed out wife (Sue, right?).

Belated Happy Anniversary!

Sheryll

=====
"We need to be united and strong. We'll have losses and scares, sure. And you'll be there for each other, helping each other through the bad times."
 blpurdom - Harry Potter and the Psychic Serpent, Chapter 26

______________________________________________________________________ 
Web-hosting solutions for home and business! http://website.yahoo.ca



From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 14 15:22:08 2002
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (lupinesque)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 15:22:08 -0000
Subject: Happy Birthday, Lena!
Message-ID: <a4gkn0+cldl@eGroups.com>

Lena a.k.a. CJK (lena at dancing-dryad.com) was born on this day of love 
. . . what a great birthday!  I hope you get double helpings of 
chocolates.

The Birthday Elf




From macloudt at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Feb 14 15:29:35 2002
From: macloudt at yahoo.co.uk (macloudt)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 15:29:35 -0000
Subject: Amandageist is peeved (was Onlist complaints)
In-Reply-To: <20020213225236.59015.qmail@web13708.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <a4gl4v+k0rh@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., Wanda Mallett <witchwanda2002 at y...> 
wrote:
> Amanda, thumbs up from me!

I second that!

<snip Wanda's excellent, level-headed post>

Now I'll be the first to admit that confrontation makes me cringe.  
It makes me want to crawl under a rock and whimper, especially when a 
normally relaxed and downright fun situation, such as OT, threatens 
to get ugly.  But I do want to add my little rant onto the heap...

The primary reason I subscribe to this group is for the very reason I 
just mentioned; it's relaxed and fun.  The vast, vast majority of the 
regular posties (and you lovely lurkers!) are a group of friends as 
far as I'm concerned.  I often don't have the chance to read the 
HPFGU postings anymore (haven't for weeks now, actually), but I come 
to this site every day to see what the Discussions of the Day are and 
what everyone's been up to.  Like now...I've stuck the kids in front 
of the Idiot Box Babysitter and sat down at the computer to relax.  
But after reading the posts so far I must say that I'm pretty wound 
up.  What's going on?

Now before anyone flames me, I'm all for freedom of speech.  Really.  
As much as I may disagree with someone's opinion I'll defend his or 
her right to state it *in general*.  Where I *personally* (note 
emphasis) draw the line is the belief that *all* views can and should 
be aired *anywhere*, in any manner; for example, the belief that a 
Catholic newspaper should not be allowed to ban a pro-abortion 
article.  Pro- (or anti-) abortion views should not be censored in 
the general press, in my opinion, but I do hold the view that special 
interest papers, be they Catholic or otherwise, have the right to 
exclude views that go against their own ethical codes.  The 
codes/standards/whatever are there as guidelines for such a paper, 
just as many groups (yes, even the HPFGU ones) have such guidelines.  
The way I see it, the guidelines for the HP groups are there exactly 
to keep the whole damned thing from descending into chaos.  As 
several people have already mentioned (sorry for not quoting and 
referencing you properly), what would our groups be like if there was 
no censorship or moderating whatsoever?  I for one would be out of 
here like a shot.  

If you don't agree with the ethical code of the abovementioned 
Catholic paper...then don't read it.  Sure, you could picket outside 
their office, and bombard it with phone calls and leaflets, and hurl 
insults at the staff as they come and go.  Would it change the 
paper's attitude?  Hardly likely.  So is the effort worth it?  Not in 
my opinion.  Go home and start your own paper stating your own 
views.  That would be positive rather than negative action.

Before you start on me, I know perfectly well that larger societal 
wrongs (women's rights, minority rights and such) often have to be 
tackled in such a manner (meaning the picketing and such).  As Bruce 
Cockburn sings, "The trouble with normal is it only gets worse".  
I've been a member of Amnesty International since my late teens and 
know that the world is often a nasty place.  Every month I fire off 
several letters to people who delight in torture and the crushing of 
human rights.  But I'm not talking about this type of scale.  I'm 
talking about much smaller groups/situations, such as ours.  Using 
another personal example, if you enrolled your daughter in our 
Rainbow Guides unit and you didn't like the way we ran things, you 
could either rant and rave, or you could just transfer your daughter 
to another unit.  Which makes more sense?

Now to my point, which was also Wanda's.  There are plenty of other 
HP groups out there.  You could even start your own.  If you don't 
like this group, then please feel free to rant a bit *without* 
getting personal (we're supposed to be grown ups, remember), and 
leave the group.

Life's too short for all this ranting and raving, friends.  Now could 
we please get back to talking about earth-shattering things such as 
the history of Pavlova and the HP scarves we got for Christmas?  
*And* Tabouli's fabulous essays, of course!

Schoogles,

Mary Ann




From alyeskakc at netzero.net  Thu Feb 14 15:30:36 2002
From: alyeskakc at netzero.net (alyeskakc)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 15:30:36 -0000
Subject: Happy Valentine's day to you all!!!
In-Reply-To: <011101c1b568$394da2a0$0200a8c0@shasta>
Message-ID: <a4gl6s+1l71@eGroups.com>

Happy Valentine's Day to everyone.  Hope it is a good one.

I myself have no real plans other than to watch the olympics tonight 
and play with my kiss kiss bears my mommy got me. They really are 
kind of cute. 


Cheers,

Kristin




From alyeskakc at netzero.net  Thu Feb 14 15:35:34 2002
From: alyeskakc at netzero.net (alyeskakc)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 15:35:34 -0000
Subject: Happy Birthday, Lena!
In-Reply-To: <a4gkn0+cldl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a4glg6+rvk5@eGroups.com>



Happy Birthday Lena. I hope it's filled with lots of love and joy.



Cheers,

Kristin

p.s. Happy birthday to everyone I've missed over the past few weeks, 
I've been neglecting my lists. *goes to smash ears in oven door*




From tabouli at unite.com.au  Thu Feb 14 16:01:32 2002
From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 03:01:32 +1100
Subject: Banned topics, pseudonyms, the silent majority
Message-ID: <002301c1b571$bd7e7dc0$5231c2cb@price>

Just got today's OT digest.  Dear, dear, dear.  I was squinting to read through a veritable porcupine of hackles!  Up to a point a bit of rousing argument can be interesting, but this is taking on a rather nasty edge.  (Were the English bluebloods onto something in vetoing discussion of religion and politics at the dinner table?). Speaking for myself, a humble (albeit verbose) listmember, I have no problem with the three banned topics.

Banned Topic 1: I confess to curiosity about the book that must not be named, but so far not enough to rifle through the archives or ask the Mods, and certainly not enough to demand a repeal of the ban.  If I got energetic enough to rifle, and felt *compelled* to discuss it, well, hey, all posters' email addresses are visible... I could solicit a few people and conduct a discussion off-list.  Containing, hopefully, at least one person who was there in the infamous flamewar to fill us in.

Banned Topic 2: Have no problem steering away from the Holocaust, despite my cross-cultural slants on things.  It's welcome to stay banned.

Banned Topic 3: As for current politics, I occasionally feel inspired to mutter on the subject, but as I'm safely tucked away in Australia the odd mutter on my local politics doesn't seem to provoke any problems.  As for international politics, I'm occasionally tempted to have a rant, but I can do this with people I know in real life, or off-list with my various correspondents (HPFGU and otherwise).  If I really wanted the opinions of HPFGU-OT listmembers on a political issue, I could glance over the last few digests, pick some active listmembers who seem likely to have something interesting to say on the subject, and *email them off-list*.  Slightly less convenient than posting to the list, but not, IMO, a gross infringement of my personal liberties.

I suspect my main list musings on extreme individualism are applicable in this situation.  Is any restriction at all from authority figures on our freedom/right to choose to do and say exactly what we want when we want how we want oppression and tyranny most foul?

Reading through the "A response" thread, I did have one slight but persistent twitch, however.  Quite a few people were declaring Mafalda a "coward" for posting an antagonistic message under a pseudonym.  Erm, I thought, a little discomforted by the implications of this (perhaps I'd better make sure I never post anything antagonistic, eh?).

Hmmm.  I think I might cut Mafalda a bit of a break on this one, being a pseudonym user myself.  I know well about the ol' poison pen issue in real life (i.e. someone that sends anonymous nasty letters is considered a manipulative criminal), but given the nature of the internet, I'm inclined to think a direct parallel is inappropriate here.  Using a pseudonym is the norm in a lot of online circles.  It doesn't contravene any list rules I know of.  How much difference would it really make if Mafalda told us her real name?  Would it make her more answerable for her comments?  Would it really enable us to prove that her claims that what goes on among the Mods is "not pretty" are fabricated?  She could give us any plausible "real" name she wanted, as could almost anyone on any mailing list... how are we really going to know unless we do ID checks?? (which would offend a lot more people's versions of individualist freedoms...)

I'm using "Tabouli" rather than my real name because (a) I think my real name is boring, and is only rescued from complete uninspired Anglo-Saxon anonymity by my Chinese middle name, (b) I picked "tabouli" as the user ID for my mailing list email address, and (c) it's fun to have an HP fandom identity with a nickname (and broadcasting my real name far and wide would wreck the fun).  I also have a vague feeling that it might be iffy professionally if my clients and competitors in cross-cultural training (not to mention family, friends, dodgy exes...) could nip onto the Net, join HPFGU, and link me to every rant and opinion I've expressed on list, some of which I definitely wouldn't want them to see (though it would be amusing to see what they made of the acronym business...).  I suppose you could argue that this last is a bit "cowardly" (or at least, "paranoid"!), but I *know* how touchy my field is, and I'm calling it "prudent".  I realise that it would be very easy to identify me from my posts if someone were determined enough, but I'd rather put in a little safety gauge, and feel entitled to do so.

As for what I'll do when I eventually meet some listmembers in person, I'm still musing.  My current inclination is to tell them my real name, but use "Tabouli" socially.  I imagine it might be confusing to address me by my real name while simultaneously bearing in mind I'm actually the person-known-onlist-as-Tabouli...

>Mafalda: That is true, the members do not speak for you. Although, 
I've interviewed at least 20 members in the last year  about the 
moderator's actions and they've said they were afraid to write on a board and were
already shot down harshly before and decided not to write at all. That
shows that there is a group within the 4,000 strong (I can't say a
definite number of people) over at HPFGU that don't like the way the
moderators act. And these people that I interviewed were in their mid
twenties to late twenties so I can't speak for the over thirty and 
under twenty people on this.<

This I found interesting.  I always suspected that the main reason for the silent majority was intimidation, but not intimidation inflicted by the Mods per se.  More that the tone of the list is pretty intellectual and requires putting a lot of energy into keeping up with posts and scrutinising the HP novels to a truly obsessive degree for regular participation.  Also, and perhaps most significantly, the fact that just about every single possible interpretation or observation to be gleaned from a normal (as opposed to obsessively scrutinising) read of the HP books has already been ambushed, tortured and beaten to death umpteen times in overwhelming detail.  I imagine that a constant stream of "we've covered that about 10 times in the past year, check the archives", understandable though it is for longer term listmembers, could be off-putting and embarrassing for many.  They may well feel inhibited becaue they feel they have nothing new to contribute, or that the HP fandom they thought they possessed is a veritable grain of sand beside the monolithic obsession of the die-hards.

Out of curiosity, Mafalda, how did your interviewees all manage to be mid to late twenties?  Did you hand-pick them from their ages on the membership list?  If so, why that age bracket particularly... is it the one you belong to?  It's the one I belong to, but I didn't get interviewed, not that this bothers me.  I'm happy with the job the admins are doing, and, insofar as one can tell from people's fictional selves on-list, like them personally.  Of course, that may be because I enjoy SHIPping with Penny, relish sparring with Amy Z, and sympathise with John's reactions to condemnation of homosexuality and non-establishment religions (while simultaneously recognising that their tone is confronting, and likely to ruffle some feathers...)

Tabouli.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From inviziblegirl at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 14 16:09:13 2002
From: inviziblegirl at hotmail.com (Amber ?)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 11:09:13 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Happy VD everyone! :-)
Message-ID: <F35y7rjcxtniFKULPEh00007515@hotmail.com>


>From: "Rachel Bray" <bray.262 at osu.edu>
>
>I'm dressed in black from head to toe along with all my
>other friends without boyfriends this year.  This is a
>tradition we've had since high school and it still lives.
>Unfortunately, I did enjoy NOT being in the club for 10
>years but.....life goes on.

*grin* After enduring Valentines Day after Valentines Day single, my 
sophomore year in college, I renamed the day Singles Awareness Day. I call 
it that now regularly and have vowed that if I ever do pick up a boyfriend 
one of these days, I will observe SAD and not VD. The boyfriend can give me 
flowers and be all lovey-dovey (ick!) every other day of the year but not on 
SAD/VD.

I like the idea of dressing all in black, though. *ponders* I'd change what 
I'm wearing but I think the only thing black I have is the requisite "little 
black dress" and I don't really feel like tromping around in that thing. 
Although, it would be amusing to see the post office worker's faces when I 
enter wearing the dress and my knee-high black "kick-ass" boots... *ponders 
more*

~Amber

********
http://www.the-tabula-rasa.com

I am moved by fancies that are curled
Around these images, and cling:
The notion of some infinitely gentle
Infinitely suffering thing.
- "Preludes" by T.S. Eliot

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx




From inviziblegirl at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 14 16:16:58 2002
From: inviziblegirl at hotmail.com (Amber ?)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 11:16:58 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] pseudonyms
Message-ID: <F84JcYDeWrMY0jaLHQZ00007317@hotmail.com>


>From: "Tabouli" <tabouli at unite.com.au>
>
>Reading through the "A response" thread, I did have one slight but 
>persistent twitch, however.  Quite a few people were declaring Mafalda a 
>"coward" for posting an antagonistic message under a pseudonym.  Erm, I 
>thought, a little discomforted by the implications of this (perhaps I'd 
>better make sure I never post anything antagonistic, eh?).
>
>Hmmm.  I think I might cut Mafalda a bit of a break on this one, being a 
>pseudonym user myself.

I think what people are talking about is that since Mafalda joined OT-Chat 
on the 13th of this month, s/he hasn't had enough time to read through all 
the digests/archives and find out about past discussions. Thus the 
assumption is that this person is also known under another name, whether it 
be a pseudonym, real name, whatever. People are complaining that this person 
isn't posting under what they are known to the list as, but under the 
anonymity of an unknown name.

I could be wrong, though.

~Amber

********
http://www.the-tabula-rasa.com

I am moved by fancies that are curled
Around these images, and cling:
The notion of some infinitely gentle
Infinitely suffering thing.
- "Preludes" by T.S. Eliot

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com




From ftah3 at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 14 16:49:53 2002
From: ftah3 at yahoo.com (ftah3)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 16:49:53 -0000
Subject: re my replies to "Response" & pseudonyms
Message-ID: <a4gprh+89bk@eGroups.com>

In my opinion, my replies to "Response" and in regards pseudonyms 
were...hmm, inappropriate.  My opinions are unchanged, and I would 
pretty much express them that way if I posted again, but in 
retrospect I simply think I should have just stayed out of it.  (I 
don't like getting involved in politics of any sort, and haven't for 
a good long while.  In the end I generally feel as if I've wasted a 
lot of energy in a useless exercise while potentially making people 
uncomfortable where I had not so intended.)

I've deleted the messages from the web list archive, and if those who 
receive messages via email/whatever want to reply, I would appreciate 
it if the replies were sent privately (offlist).  Of course, people 
will do what they will, so *shrug*.  But offlist would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Mahoney




From alyeskakc at netzero.net  Thu Feb 14 19:05:02 2002
From: alyeskakc at netzero.net (alyeskakc)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 19:05:02 -0000
Subject: pseudonyms
In-Reply-To: <F84JcYDeWrMY0jaLHQZ00007317@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <a4h1ou+3j37@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "Amber ?" <inviziblegirl at h...> wrote:

Tabouli Wrote: 

Reading through the "A response" thread, I did have one slight but 
persistent twitch, however.  Quite a few people were declaring 
Mafalda a "coward" for posting an antagonistic message under a 
pseudonym.  Erm, I thought, a little discomforted by the implications 
of this (perhaps I'd better make sure I never post anything 
antagonistic, eh?).


Amber Wrote:

I think what people are talking about is that since Mafalda joined OT-
Chat on the 13th of this month, s/he hasn't had enough time to read 
through all the digests/archives and find out about past discussions. 
Thus the assumption is that this person is also known under another 
name, whether it be a pseudonym, real name, whatever. People are 
complaining that this person isn't posting under what they are known 
to the list as, but under the anonymity of an unknown name.


Kristin Writes:

Amber is quite right in her assumption. Mafalda has implied and/or 
stated that she has been part of the HP4GU for sometime and therefore 
knows what's going on in the mod world behind the scenes.  

>Mafalda: I could be either a Mod or a List Elf or a Poltergeist, or I
>could be neither. I've been on the board and I know what goes on 
>behind the scenes. It isn't pretty, believe me.

Therefore by this implication she is someone we know by another name, 
be it her "real name" or a pseudonym, that doesn't really matter. The 
reference to cowardice is based on the assumption that she is hiding 
behind the "Mafalda mask". I will not apologize for my remark about 
her being ashamed. If you're going to fight for some cause then you 
should be willing to put yourself on the line. When I stand up and 
fight for something I don't hide behind anything and I'm more than 
willing to take the flack afterward.


I also wanted to address this comment:

>Mafalda: Yes they are his opinions, but John does not have a right to
>shoot off certain members just because he's a Moderator.

I have never in my 10+ months seen John, Penny, or any other mod for 
that matter shoot down another member, especially while they were in 
Magical Mod mode. I have seen them dispute comments, ideas, etc. 
while they were being just another list member, no different from you 
or me or anyone else. Just because they are mods doesn't mean they 
have to be mods all the time. They should be able to express and 
defend their opinons just like everyone else on the list.  

Should mods not be allowed to participate in the debates/discussions?
I mean they are quite clear about when they're being mods, it's 
always prefaced with ADMIN:, otherwise they're both just listmembers 
arguing their point, IMHO, no different than Joe Blow Listmember. I 
just don't see what you are trying to accomplish by this antagonistic 
behavior, other than to stir up controversy for the sake of 
controversy.  If that was your goal, well then I guess you have 
succeeded haven't you?

Kristin
*who is quite curious to discover who the woman behind the curtain is*




From andrew_macian at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 14 19:52:48 2002
From: andrew_macian at yahoo.com (Andrew MacIan)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 11:52:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: A response
In-Reply-To: <a4gjbc+3csd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20020214195248.20982.qmail@web9506.mail.yahoo.com>

Greetings from Andrew!

Ah, Spring....
--- lupinesque <aiz24 at hotmail.com> wrote:
> Andrew MacIan wrote:
> 
> > The lesson?  Amanda appears to be correct.  You
> don't
> > like the rules, leave. No two ways about it. 
> Either
> > you accept the rules or change the game.  
> 
> With due respect and thanks to Drieux, I do want to
> reiterate that 
> there is a third option:  politely, and in
> accordance with the 
> current rules (namely, offlist), send your thoughts
> to the 
> Moderators, where they will receive grateful and
> serious attention.

Is this really a *third* option?  Not trying to get
'semantic wiggle-room', but whne I thought about how
to phrase my own response, the 'ask the Mods' option
really fit under the playing by the rules option.

And it would take *far* more than this to raise my
ire, Amy {smile}.

> 
> The Moderators are very willing to change the rules.
>  That's why the 
> banned topics and other rule changes have been made
> all along--because 
>  unforeseen bones of contention emerged (the U.S.
> Presidential 
> election) or the list changed (went from 300 to 3000
> members) and so 
> new needs had to be addressed.  The list is a
> benevolent dictatorship, 
> not a democracy, but anyone who has suggestions,
> complaints, or praise 
> has our ears.

Flexibility = life; rigidity = death.

> 
> (BTW, Amanda is wrong about the lack of dirt over on
> the Mods list.  
> I've been carrying on a torrid affair with Neil for
> three months, 
> having always had a thing for chrome, and I happen
> to know that Cindy 
> only got made a Mod because she bribed Penny with
> three free months of 
> babysitting.)
> 

{raised eyebrow}  Chrome?  Indeed?  The mind boggles!

Cheers,

Drieux

...about to have his grad students do something
*useful* and polish the Morgan....

=====
ICQ # 76184391

'Each game of chess means there's one less
      Variation left to be played;
 Each day got through means one or two less
      Mistakes remain to be made.'
      --'Chess' by Sir Tim Rice

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
http://greetings.yahoo.com



From editor at texas.net  Thu Feb 14 19:58:32 2002
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 13:58:32 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: A response
References: <20020214195248.20982.qmail@web9506.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <004d01c1b591$fb964820$977763d1@texas.net>

Andrew boggled, about Amy saying

> > (BTW, Amanda is wrong about the lack of dirt over on
> > the Mods list.  
> > I've been carrying on a torrid affair with Neil for
> > three months, 
> > having always had a thing for chrome 
> 
> {raised eyebrow}  Chrome?  Indeed?  The mind boggles!

Indeed. Here I thought she had a thing for leather seats.

--Amanda





From witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 14 20:00:10 2002
From: witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com (Wanda Mallett)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 12:00:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Happy Birthday, Lena!
In-Reply-To: <a4gkn0+cldl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20020214200010.45062.qmail@web13709.mail.yahoo.com>


 
  lupinesque <aiz24 at hotmail.com> wrote: 
Lena a.k.a. CJK (lena at dancing-dryad.com) was born on this day of love 
. . . what a great birthday!  I hope you get double helpings of 
chocolates.

The Birthday Elf

Happy Birthday to Lena!
The same from us too! Extra goodies and Valentines should make the day be a fun one! Hope you get plenty of your favorite thing today! Happy Birthday and Happy Valentine's Day to you! We toast you with much happiness!

Wanda the Witch of Revere, Massachusetts and Her Very Merry Band of Muggles 100% 



---------------------------------
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu  Thu Feb 14 20:04:30 2002
From: lee_hillman at urmc.rochester.edu (gwendolyngrace)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 20:04:30 -0000
Subject: responses on responses; anonymity cloaks; deletions
Message-ID: <a4h58e+4d3m@eGroups.com>

Well, I felt I had to come over here and do my share to pee on the
fire in an attempt to put it out....

First off, I want to repeat (or even iterate) some of what Amanda,
Amy, and others have said about the banned topics. If you are curious
as to why they are banned, by all means, please, Ask The Mods. That's
why the mods and elves are there--and most of them have been around
for at least long enough to know why the topics were banned. They can
tell you, just like your List Elf or any mod can tell you where to
find that line of Dudley's you've been trying to remember. Ask.
Please. Don't bottle up that curiosity like Harry!

Second, I think Kristin summed up the objection to "Mafalda's"
assumption of the cloak of anonymity, but I'm going to add to it a
little. It's not that she chose to post under a pseudonym that is a
problem--most of us do that. It's that she tried to convince the
members here that she is some sort of subject matter expert regarding
discussions and decisions made on the moderators' private list. IMO,
one cannot attempt to prove one's authority without backing up the
claim, either by telling the audience who you are and why you are
entitled to claim expertise, or by providing evidence that proves you
know what you're talking about. To do otherwise is to put on a show of
arrogance and bravado.

Third, Mahoney, it saddens me that you felt it necessary to delete
your post. From what I've observed, the mods don't tend to delete any
posts unless there is a clear violation of some part of the ToU, such
as copyright infringement, spam, or some other legitimate reason the
post should not exist. Yours was an expression of opinion every bit as
valid as Mafalda's original post: leaving aside some allegedly
specious content in her message, they both have a right to be a
permanent record of the dialogue and debate that keeps this group
alive. If you truly felt your post inappropriate, no one would have
stopped you from deleting it; but by no means did I feel it was
necessary. This group is not concerned with rewriting our history;
only with attempting not to repeat our mistakes by ignoring them.

Finally, I'd like to say something about shooting down other listies.
Yes, sometimes, I feel like I need hip boots on the main list. The
dreck that sometimes is bandied about on-list, whether serious or
silly, often boggles the mind. It can be extremely difficult not to
jump up and down, kick the computer, tear out copious amounts of hair,
and screech (or would we prefer to shriek?) "WHAT!!!? How can you
possibly conclude X from clues/facts/assumptions A, J, and Purple?"

Now, *usually,* thank heavens, there's enough else going on in life
that is more important, and one can let it go, ranting, as someone
else said, off-list or among smaller circles of sympathetic (or at
least understanding) friends. So the "Grrr" filled rant doesn't make
it to the list. Alas, none of us is always so calm nor so busy.
Occasionally a post hits and there's time to address it. Occasionally
someone forgets to let it sit for an hour or 6 before hitting that
Send button. And even then, sometimes the devil on one's shoulder
wins, grinning in impish glee even as one thinks, "Maybe I
shouldn't...." but sends it anyway. It happens.

I could grumble--a lot--about the redundant questions and "oh my gosh!
I just had this totally brand new thought about something I'm sure no
one has ever asked before!" posts that go on to ask, "So where does
Snape go?" or "Hey, has anyone thought that maybe Harry's the heir of
Gryffindor?" There are a number of points I want to add to the
treatment Sirius, Severus, Remus, and Lucius got on the list in the
past weeks. I could get myself worked up well and truly, and go on a
huge tirade and piss off just about everyone on the list, if I wanted
to. I could quite happily burn George in effigy and capsize every dang
kayak, dinghy, tugboat, schooner, catamaran, junk, sampan, canoe,
frigate, tall ship, and ocean liner in the vast HP fleet. But... oh,
why bother? If you ask me, we're all getting a little punchy just
*waiting* for something new to be revealed, and well, so folks are
blowing off a little steam, getting silly. Big deal. I've a feeling if
I'd been less busy in the last few weeks, I'd have found it much more
amusing. Hm, maybe I'm turning into a Curmudgeon in my old age!

There's precious little point to worrying about the occasional
screw-up--from whichever source. Nine times out of ten the situation
resolves itself quickly among the sparring members, or if necessary a
brief but effective Howler/virtual slap on the wrist does the trick,
and everyone's back to playing nice. We're all going to flash now and
then. The important thing to remember is to forgive and move on (and
note the transgression for blackmail material later--oops, was that my
outside voice?).

Gwen (who got on the mod list all by herself cause she's so cute. Oh,
okay. Fine. I'll tell the truth. I used Imperio.)








From Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com  Thu Feb 14 20:10:41 2002
From: Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com (Aberforth's Goat)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 21:10:41 +0100
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Happy Valentine's day to you all!!!
References: <20020214150620.40367.qmail@web14606.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <004b01c1b593$ae0508b0$0200a8c0@shasta>

Warbled Sheryll Nightengale,

> Awwww..... the goat isn't feeling well. Am sending
> virtual chicken soup for you and the kids and
> chocolate for your stressed out wife (Sue, right?).

Mmmm. That hit the spot ...

Only problem is, it wasn't actually our anniversary. It was just
the day I got up the nerve to tell Sue that I was madly in love
with her ... and, to my eternal surprise, she didn't turn out to
be offended. Rather the contrary.

It took us another 3 years to make it to out 0th anniversary ...
But we still keep the chocolate and chicken soup?

Baaaaaa!

Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray)
_______________________

"Of course, I'm not entirely sure he can read, so that may not
have
been bravery...."



_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From saitaina at wizzards.net  Thu Feb 14 21:15:18 2002
From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 13:15:18 -0800
Subject: Happy Sunny day to all the single depressed people!
References: <20020214150620.40367.qmail@web14606.mail.yahoo.com> <004b01c1b593$ae0508b0$0200a8c0@shasta>
Message-ID: <007b01c1b59c$b541d280$8a4e28d1@oemcomputer>

Sorry, couldn't resist.  Happy *insert whatever you fell like here* Day.  I
must now go move onto my wailing, moaning and pulling of hair portion of
day.

On another note, anyone going to watch the Men's Freeskate tonight?  Alexi
Yagudin is going to take home the gold, I can guarantee it.

Saitaina
*****
Also Doing: Cleaning cans out/role-playing
Last Movie Seen: Harry Potter and the Sorcer's Stone (3rd time)
Last TV Show Seen: "Cops"
Current Book-"The Lunatic Cafe"




From vencloviene at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 14 21:45:00 2002
From: vencloviene at hotmail.com (anavenc)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 21:45:00 -0000
Subject: A response to Mafalda
Message-ID: <a4hb4s+nutf@eGroups.com>

Hi everybody, this is Ana, 
who for once delurks to thank  the Moderators and Elves for the truly 
remarkable work they do, keeping this list in order.

I think, Mafalda, we all should be grateful to the people who spend a 
lot of time and effort to keep the discussions on this board as 
intelligent and enjoyable as they are.  You know what usually happens 
to less strictly moderated lists (especially to ones, related to such 
highly popular subjects as HP): they get polluted by slangy one-
liners, and discussions often regress to meaningless rant. 

About the so-called intimidation of new members:  
I personally found nothing intimidating in Netiquette file.  Of 
course, writing a message for this board does take time and energy, 
because of the requirement to come up with some ideas on the subject 
and express them in a coherent and cultured language. That's what 
makes the messages here worth reading, but sure prevents some people, 
including myself :), from posting as much as they would like (I am 
Russian and writing in English is time-consuming for me). 

I enjoy this board very much!

Cheers,   Ana. 




From jdumas at kingwoodcable.com  Thu Feb 14 22:10:38 2002
From: jdumas at kingwoodcable.com (Katze)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 16:10:38 -0600
Subject: Philip Pullman - His Dark Materials
Message-ID: <3C6C35DE.69940480@kingwoodcable.com>

I read something in Variety a week or so ago that says New Line Cinemas
(Lord of the Rings), has landed the right to produced Philip Pullman's
series, His Dark Materials.

Have many of your read his books? Did you enjoy them? 

-Katze



From mjollner at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 14 22:07:01 2002
From: mjollner at yahoo.com (mjollner)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 22:07:01 -0000
Subject: Lupinesque/Facing the Challenge & Tabouli/Silent Majority
Message-ID: <a4hce5+76ms@eGroups.com>

<Lupinesque, in "Facing the Challenge Web Site (long)" wrote:>

<Ah, my favorite two topics: HP and religion! <Amy rubs hands 
<together gleefully>
<The article proposes to "[explore] the different Christian 
<responses," which seems very promising. I would think that for a 
<Christian trying to make any difficult decision, it would be most 
<helpful if the person advising them would admit, "Christians take a 
<variety of points of view on this question--here are their 
<arguments." The article starts off by offering two rather extreme, 
<and in the author's mind, apparently equally problematic views

<snip snip>

and

<I have no objection to an article that tries to argue that Harry 
<Potter is contradictory to Christianity and should be handled with 
<care if at all. However, this article does just this while *claiming* 
<to be offering a wide variety of Christian opinions and options.

Brava, Amy/Lupinesque, for your thoughtful post about the article at 
http://www.facingthechallenge.org/potter.htm.  You expressed more 
eloquently (and more quickly!) than I could the overall unease with 
which I read Facing the Challenge's anti-HP attack disguised as a 
"careful thought and discussion."  As a Christian who has felt 
compelled on occasion to defend my enthusiasm for Rowling's works, I 
looked forward to seeing a balanced response which presented the many 
possible (and biblically based) attitudes a Christian could have 
toward the Potterverse.  Unfortunately, I didn't find it there.  

Fortunately, I *did* find your reasoned, biblically supported response 
(50 points to your house for all of the Old & New Testament 
quotations!), which I will now place in my quiver (reminiscent of 
Legolas's...sigh...but I digress!) along with some essays from First 
Things and other literary arrows I've managed to pick up here and 
there.  So thanks!

<Tabouli, in "Banned topics, pseudonyms, the silent majority," wrote:

<Also, and perhaps most significantly, the fact that just about every 
<single possible interpretation or observation to be gleaned from a 
<normal (as opposed to obsessively scrutinising) read of the HP books 
<has already been ambushed, tortured and beaten to death umpteen times 
<in overwhelming detail. I imagine that a constant stream of "we've 
<covered that about 10 times in the past year, check the archives", 
<understandable though it is for longer term listmembers,
<could be off-putting and embarrassing for many. 

You hit the nail right on the head!  This for me is the main reason 
why I, a newcomer to the HP4GU lists, do not post more often.  I blame 
the timing, for the most part:  GoF has been out for (seeming) eons, 
we've had relatively little new Potterverse information since then and 
we're all getting antsy waiting for OotP.  For those who have been 
posting for a long time, every point has been discussed to death.  
Those of us who are recent arrivals get the message with the numerous 
"check the archives" admonishments, and therefore can feel reluctant 
to post on some topic of interest, knowing that it has probably been 
talked about thousands of times before and fearing to annoy those for 
whom the discussion is not new.

Mjollner




From s_ings at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 14 22:43:26 2002
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 17:43:26 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Happy Valentine's day to you all!!!
In-Reply-To: <004b01c1b593$ae0508b0$0200a8c0@shasta>
Message-ID: <20020214224326.67763.qmail@web14606.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Aberforth's Goat <Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com>
wrote:
> Warbled Sheryll Nightengale,
> 
> > Awwww..... the goat isn't feeling well. Am sending
> > virtual chicken soup for you and the kids and
> > chocolate for your stressed out wife (Sue,
> right?).
> 
> Mmmm. That hit the spot ...
> 
> Only problem is, it wasn't actually our anniversary.
> It was just
> the day I got up the nerve to tell Sue that I was
> madly in love
> with her ... and, to my eternal surprise, she didn't
> turn out to
> be offended. Rather the contrary.
> 
> It took us another 3 years to make it to out 0th
> anniversary ...
> But we still keep the chocolate and chicken soup?
> 
> Baaaaaa!
> 
> Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray)

Of course you can keep the soup and chocolate. No need
for it here. I'm on my way for a Thai dinner, I
suspect it's a ploy on hubby's part to keep me from
noticing that he didn't bake me the cake I wanted. Do
I really care about the cake? Naawwwww, flowers and
dinner do the trick quite nicely.

Sheryll, off to dinner 

=====
"We need to be united and strong. We'll have losses and scares, sure. And you'll be there for each other, helping each other through the bad times."
 blpurdom - Harry Potter and the Psychic Serpent, Chapter 26

______________________________________________________________________ 
Web-hosting solutions for home and business! http://website.yahoo.ca



From andrew_macian at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 14 22:51:12 2002
From: andrew_macian at yahoo.com (Andrew MacIan)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 14:51:12 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: A response
In-Reply-To: <004d01c1b591$fb964820$977763d1@texas.net>
Message-ID: <20020214225112.19704.qmail@web9507.mail.yahoo.com>

Greetings from Andrew!

Kink is where it finds you....
--- Amanda <editor at texas.net> wrote:
> Andrew boggled, about Amy saying
> 
> > > (BTW, Amanda is wrong about the lack of dirt
> over on
> > > the Mods list.  
> > > I've been carrying on a torrid affair with Neil
> for
> > > three months, 
> > > having always had a thing for chrome 
> > 
> > {raised eyebrow}  Chrome?  Indeed?  The mind
> boggles!
> 
> Indeed. Here I thought she had a thing for leather
> seats.

Chrome *and* leather?

Whoooo-hoo!

Cheers,

a laughing Drieux

=====
ICQ # 76184391

'Each game of chess means there's one less
      Variation left to be played;
 Each day got through means one or two less
      Mistakes remain to be made.'
      --'Chess' by Sir Tim Rice

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
http://greetings.yahoo.com



From voicelady at mymailstation.com  Thu Feb 14 22:00:08 2002
From: voicelady at mymailstation.com (voicelady)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 18:00:08 EDT
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Philip Pullman - His Dark Materials
Message-ID: <id.14022002180008.00000@FPE>

I have read this series and enjoyed it very much.  I found it to be very dark and don't believe that I'm the only reader who experienced this.

The themes were very complex and I'm fascinted and perplexed that they are considered "children's" books.  Especially when I found them in the "adult" section of the bookstore.

However, I think that they would be ideal to adapt to the screen.  They would be very visually stunning, IMO.

Jeralyn
--------------------------------------------------------------
I read something in Variety a week or so ago that says New Line Cinemas (Lord of the Rings), has landed the right to produced Philip Pullman's series, His Dark Materials.

Have many of your read his books? Did you enjoy them? 




From caliburncy at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 14 23:16:16 2002
From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 23:16:16 -0000
Subject: Philip Pullman - His Dark Materials
In-Reply-To: <3C6C35DE.69940480@kingwoodcable.com>
Message-ID: <a4hgg0+j49m@eGroups.com>

Hi, all.

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., Katze <jdumas at k...> wrote:
> I read something in Variety a week or so ago that says New Line
> Cinemas (Lord of the Rings), has landed the right to produced
> Philip Pullman's series, His Dark Materials.

Hmm, this is very interesting.  The last I had heard about it (which 
amittedly was long ago), Philip Pullman said that a small company had 
bought the rights to a film version.  This is a common practice, 
there are lots of companies that do nothing but buy rights (with no 
intention of actually producing a film themselves) and then 
subsequently sell those rights to other companies.  I guess New Line 
must have bought the rights from that little company.  Interesting 
news, because otherwise I would have presumed that nothing would ever 
come from that sale to the small company (damn near every book gets 
bought in this fashion, though few become films).  But if New Line 
has bought it from that smaller company, then I assume the actually 
have some level of intention of carrying it through?  Are there any 
Hollywood insiders who know how these things work.  How often (if 
ever) do the big companies buy rights from smaller companies and then 
just leave those rights in the dust?

I would definitely be interested in a film version of HDM, but I have 
to admit that I'm a tad skeptical how well a film version could be 
done.  It has become a common practice for me, of late, to imagine 
what a screenplay would be like (or often the cinematography and 
directing as well) for a movie version of books that I am reading.  
Sick, I know.  But I remember having a strange impression that a film 
adaptation of HDM would be rather more difficult than your typical 
adaptation.  I'd have to re-read HDM to remember the specifics of why 
I thought that was, but I don't have the time for a re-read, sadly.

Anyway, I am no expert; it was just the hunch of a layman who muses 
too much on these kinds of things.

I think Jeralyn is correct, however, that, if done properly, it would 
make a very interesting and visually stunning film.


> Have many of your read his books? Did you enjoy them? 

Obviously, or I wouldn't be obsessing about them, per above. ;-)  
Yep, own 'em, love 'em, and have *many*, MANY qualms to pick with 
them, but that's true of any book I read.

-Luke




From blpurdom at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 15 00:05:07 2002
From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 00:05:07 -0000
Subject: Philip Pullman - His Dark Materials
In-Reply-To: <a4hgg0+j49m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a4hjbj+78vg@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "caliburncy" <caliburncy at y...> wrote:
> I think Jeralyn is correct, however, that, if done properly, it 
> would make a very interesting and visually stunning film.

While that is true, I have to say I'm somewhat skeptical about the 
screenplay(s) for the trilogy.  Pullman's work is not merely dark; 
it contains many things that will be very, very difficult to sell to 
a mainstream audience, especially if the production company plans to 
market the film to as wide an audience as Lord of the Rings.  A 
thirteen-year-old boy who is a murderer, for a start; the connection 
between sexual awakening and when a person's daemon becomes fixed in 
its form; and the emotional/physical relationship between a twelve-
year-old girl and a thirteen-year-old boy near the end of book 
three, just to name a few things.  There's violence, mutilation, a 
very unconventional view of death and heaven and hell...As a 
trilogy, the books became more and more enjoyable (the first one's a 
bit of a slog).  As film(s) I'm frightened that so much will "need" 
to be changed to be palatable to the general public that it will be 
unrecognizable to those of us who've actually read Pullman.  

In the same way, "The Neverending Story" is rather dark, and when 
they made the film, they only told half of the story, making it as 
upbeat as possible at the end and completely omitting the darker 
themes near the end of the book, such as the boy coming to terms 
with the death of his mother.  Pullman's even darker than this, so I 
have little hope that a screenplay will ever be allowed to do his 
work justice.

--Barb

 





From sinead at bu.edu  Fri Feb 15 02:24:50 2002
From: sinead at bu.edu (sineadsiobhan)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 02:24:50 -0000
Subject: *removes curtain*
Message-ID: <a4hrhi+kqj0@eGroups.com>

*removes the curtain, takes off her Mafalda costume, kicks it aside, 
mutters at herself for doing such a stupid thing, all because she was 
pissed off at a number of things over the weekend and decided to vent 
her anger under a pseudonym name* 

I know I did an incredibly stupid thing by posting under an unknown 
name. I was really pissed off and I did a dumb thing venting like
that 
to the list. I know I've offended the list greatly and I've been 
feeling guilty and feeling really, really bad. I'm glad you guys gave 
me a beating for being so high and mighty and other stuff...

I don't blame you guys for being mad at me, I realized, right after I 
posted the last one, that it was a mistake all along and I was 
incredibly immature to do that. I was really blind by anger, really I 
was. I had a fight with my boyfriend, my suitemate told me to leave, 
and all sorts of schnit. I can't bring myself to be angry on my name 
(hence the pseudonym) and I'm really and truly sorry that it has 
happened and I'm sorry that if Mafalda/Sinead tried to break up the 
list. 

Now that I've revealed myself to a *gulp* 600-some list, I'll wait
for 
the many admonishes from you guys, because I deserve them for being 
dumb for posting such a stupid letter. then I'll leave you guys alone 
because you don't need me around this board for doing such an 
incredibly stupid thing. 

*cringes and walks to the door, walks out of the door, and shuts it 
quietly as she sniffles and goes to work on her Social Science and
her 
Oxford essay, feeling bad for angering the masses of OT-chatter and 
won't do it again if she joins another fandom*





From dizzylizzy182 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 15 02:42:27 2002
From: dizzylizzy182 at yahoo.com (Elizabeth Sager)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 18:42:27 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Digest Number 537
In-Reply-To: <1013702093.528.22624.m12@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20020215024227.17320.qmail@web20403.mail.yahoo.com>

Mike wrote:
<<<notices that everybody else is writing poetry and
baking cakes>

<grouches>

So, am I, like, the *only* person around here who has
the flu,
two sick kids and a stressed out wife?? My wife and I
declared
our love to each other on the 12th of February back in
1992
(count 'em kids ... that's T - E - N years) and had
rather
ambitious plans for this evening.

At the moment, a decent night's sleep sounds ambitious
enough ...

Bghcough!

Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray)>>

Congrats on the ten years of lovin', Mike! In 1992, I
was still into Sesame Street and Mr. Roger's
Neighborhood, and wasn't allowed to stay up past
eight-thirty! 

I was sick last week, hope you feel better soon!

Liz

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Got something to say? Say it better with Yahoo! Video Mail 
http://mail.yahoo.com



From caliburncy at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 15 03:30:21 2002
From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 03:30:21 -0000
Subject: *removes curtain*
In-Reply-To: <a4hrhi+kqj0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a4hvcd+3u5k@eGroups.com>

Well, I would like to say that, for my part, there are no hard 
feelings.  I cannot speak for every individual member of the 
moderator team--and, in fact, I have no doubt that there are a couple 
individuals in that team who were more than a little hurt by your 
comments--but I do know this moderator team and the quality of 
character that its members possess and I have faith that the rest of 
them will also be equally forgiving with time.

Take care,
-Luke, List Elf at HPfGU




From witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 15 04:03:14 2002
From: witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com (Wanda Mallett)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 20:03:14 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: *removes curtain*
In-Reply-To: <a4hvcd+3u5k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20020215040314.45562.qmail@web13703.mail.yahoo.com>



  Just for peace of mind sake, another chapter of life has come and gone for Sinead. Just getting her courage up and admitting the wrong she has done, is not easy for anybody. Hope she will reach out to the list when she needs that support when things go haywire in her life! 
We all need someone in times of anger and total frustration, and to forgive when we can. All the Mods on this list and especially our List Mom are very special people and friends and have feelings too. Hope all can work it out and forgive and let the discussions begin again in a more positive uplifting manner! 
Young fresh minds on Harry Potterverse is welcomed! Besides I need more knowledge to keep up with all the smart ones on this list and help to answer the many questions my boys hit me with! Still learning, never ending in my home! 
Schnoogles to all, 
Wanda the Witch of Revere, Massachusetts and Her Very Merry Band of Muggles 100%



---------------------------------
Do You Yahoo!?
Got something to say? Say it better with Yahoo! Video Mail

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From caliburncy at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 15 05:05:57 2002
From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 05:05:57 -0000
Subject: Philip Pullman - His Dark Materials
In-Reply-To: <a4hjbj+78vg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a4i4vl+ku8i@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "blpurdom" <blpurdom at y...> wrote:
> While that is true, I have to say I'm somewhat skeptical about the 
> screenplay(s) for the trilogy.

Yep, I'm skeptical about the what the screenplay would be like, too, 
but I think mostly for some different reasons than Barb is, although 
Barb's concerns about Hollywood trying to make it acceptable to a 
mainstream audience are quite valid.

With that in mind, actually, if you want to hear my random idea of 
the day, (strange as this will probably sound to some people) I 
actually think HDM is a case where it might perhaps work better as a 
cartoon than as live action.  In terms of marketing, of course, this 
would fail *miserably* because "cartoon", in the public Western eye 
connotes a pure, G-rated children's film, which would only exacerbate 
the problems of darkness that Barb points out because excessively 
young children would go see it and jaded adults would steer clear.  
But from an *artistic* point of view, I have seen some truly 
atmospheric and moody cartoons the style of which would be, I think, 
very well suited to HDM because these things play up the 
psychological darkness (more important to Pullman's work, IMO), while 
simultaneously playing down the literal graphic darkness.  I don't 
know if that explanation makes much sense.

Of course, the odds of any studio going for the artistic approach 
rather than the marketing approach is rather slim, so if they ever 
opted for an HDM cartoon I think that would initially make me even 
*more* skeptical, because this would likely indicate an intention to 
Disney-fy it, not an intention to do what I am suggesting above.

Anyway, specififically referring to some of Barb's examples, let's 
see if, collectively, we can come up with a way for these issues to 
be handled without either deviating from the spirit of the books or 
alienating more of the mainstream audience than is necessary:


> Pullman's work is not merely dark; it contains many things that
> will be very, very difficult to sell to a mainstream audience,
> especially if the production company plans to market the film to as
> wide an audience as Lord of the Rings.  A thirteen-year-old boy who
> is a murderer, for a start

This is dark, certainly, but not too objectionable for a PG-13 film 
(wasn't LOTR, your example, rated PG-13?), seeing as how the victim 
in question merely fell down a set of stairs and snapped his neck 
(it's not as if Will attacked him with a knife or anything).  The 
*concept* may bug people regardless of treatment, but I don't see why 
this has to be *treated* in a way that could not be acceptable to a 
relatively mainstream audience.  And as for graphicness, people 
falling down stairs happens even on shows as benign and mainstream as 
Murder She Wrote all the time, and the reason this works is because 
it is treated in a certain way.  The only thing I would probably take 
out for the sake of this mainstream acceptability (and in any case, 
it's a thought, not a statement, and hence too difficult to convey 
anyway) is Lyra's thought that she can trust Will because he is a 
murderer.  Since most thoughts would be cut anyway I see no special 
reason why this one needs to stay; and while I think it is a 
surprising and therefore interesting comment, I do not feel that 
omitting it from a screenplay would be an automatic violation of the 
spirit of the books.

Oh, wait.  I just realized that there are one or two other instances 
where Will has to attack people (unlike the aforementioned incident, 
which is basically an accident), aren't there?  I guess that's 
probably more what Barb was talking about, huh?  I suppose I 
immediately thought of that first instance, because that's where Will 
decides he is a muderer.

Okay, well, hmm, I'll have to think about that, because I am having 
trouble remembering the details of those other incidents, so I can't 
really comment on how these scenes could be treated in a way that 
would fit the goal of acceptability without violation of the book's 
spirit.

But I do imagine that it's possible, because I personally think any 
subject can be presented to any audience, provided that 
the "treatment" of that subject is handle appropriately (i.e. know 
your audience and deliver accordingly).


> the connection between sexual awakening and when a person's daemon 
> becomes fixed in its form

Even Pullman treats this with a certain degree of distance.  Like 
Pullman said in the Readersville interview:


> As for what they actually DO - it's none of my damn business. My
> imagination withdrew at that point. If you want to follow them
> under the tree and watch what happens, you must bear the
> responsibility for what you see. Personally, I think privacy is a
> fine and gracious thing. I describe a kiss: and there are some
> turning-points in life for which a kiss is quite enough.

Again, I think this can be done in a way that is completely 
acceptable.  In the film (as was done in the book) just show a kiss 
and stop there.

Personally, I don't think that a whole lot more happened even in the 
book, but that's just my opinion.  Then again, I don't really care 
either way, so perhaps I am not the best judge.

I guess my point is that all that is important thematically-speaking 
is notion of the very start of a sexual awakening, for which a kiss 
is (just like in the book and often just like in real life) more than 
sufficient.  And I would like to think that most people would not 
find two pre-teens kissing to be ethically offensive.


> There's violence, mutilation

This is very true, and this is probably another area where the idea 
above of a very dark and atmospheric cartoon might be of some merit, 
at least artistically speaking--not for the sake of "cleaning up the 
film" but just because I personally think it fits the spirit of the 
books better to focus in on mood moreso than actual graphic 
depiction, an idea that I think fits the style of the type of cartoon 
I am describing.  It would not be a 'clean' cartoon, which might 
confuse the MPAA: "Wait, your telling us it's a children's book, and 
you're making into a cartoon, but you don't expect us to rate it G?"


> a very unconventional view of death and heaven and hell

I don't suppose anything can or *should* be done to make this 
more "acceptable".  It's Pullman's worldview; you don't mess with 
someone's worldview.  I would like to think, perhaps too 
optomistically, that any Hollywood-type who likes the books enough to 
try and make a film adaptation of them would at least recognize that 
This Must Stay As Is if there is to be any hope of retaining the 
original spirit.


> As film(s) I'm frightened that so much will "need" to be changed to 
> be palatable to the general public that it will be unrecognizable
> to those of us who've actually read Pullman.

With Hollywood execs involved, yes, this is quite possible, maybe 
even likely.   I will not debate that.  But I do not think that this 
is representative of a reason why a good film adaptation could not be 
made, simply a reason why it probably won't be.

And yet there are other reasons besides mainstream appeal that cause 
me to wonder if, just logistically speaking, an effective adaptation 
could be achieved, but that's another story.


> In the same way, "The Neverending Story" is rather dark, and when 
> they made the film, they only told half of the story, making it as 
> upbeat as possible at the end and completely omitting the darker 
> themes near the end of the book, such as the boy coming to terms 
> with the death of his mother.

I am certainly not 'in the know' when it comes to the decisions of 
the people who adapted "The Neverending Story" to the screen, but I 
have always suspected this had more to do with matters of length than 
it did to editing out any elements of darkness.  The sequels to this 
film, as I understand it--though I've never watched them through to 
completion--are based (perhaps loosely) upon the remainder portions 
of the novel.  And IIRC (which I very well may not--it's been awhile 
since I saw the film), they did attempt in the first film to resolve 
Bastian's coming to terms with his mother's death by changing the new 
name for the Childlike Empress to being his mother's name (unlike in 
the book where it is "Moon Child").  Not a perfect solution for some 
book-fans, I'm sure, but considering the fact that the story had to 
stop at this point, it seems more like what they viewed as the best 
compromise, rather than an attempt to 'cleanse' the film and make it 
more universally upbeat.

I have never considered "The Neverending Story" book to be 
particularly dark at all, though, so perhaps this is why I am not 
noticing the 'cleansing' done in the film version that you are 
commenting upon.  It seems to me that most of the changes made 
to "The Neverending Story" for the film adaptation were in an 
endeavor to make what they thought was a good, cohesive film, 
regardless of how far they had to deviate from the text of the book 
to achieve it.  Whether this was wise or not, I couldn't say.  As 
many will remember from my comments on the HP Movie, I come from the 
school of thought that, for most circumstances, believes in capturing 
the same spirit as the source, even at the blatant expense of the 
letter.  (Of course, this does not mean the letter should be thrown 
out for no good reason, either.)  I do not think "The Neverending 
Story" film was entirely successful in this attempt, but that did 
appear to be the general goal as best as I could tell.

Interesting thoughts, Barb!

-Luke




From caliburncy at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 15 05:12:30 2002
From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 05:12:30 -0000
Subject: Correction - Re: Philip Pullman - His Dark Materials
In-Reply-To: <a4i4vl+ku8i@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a4i5bu+oj3b@eGroups.com>

Aside from my usual batch of stellar typos, among 
which "specififically" made me laugh the hardest, I did want to 
clarify one thing that is perhaps more confusing than whether I 
really meant "murderer" when I typoed "muderer".

So here's the important clarification:

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "caliburncy" <caliburncy at y...> wrote:
> Even Pullman treats this with a certain degree of distance.  Like 
> Pullman said in the Readersville interview:
> 
> > As for what they actually DO - it's none of my damn business. My
> > imagination withdrew at that point. If you want to follow them
> > under the tree and watch what happens, you must bear the
> > responsibility for what you see. Personally, I think privacy is a
> > fine and gracious thing. I describe a kiss: and there are some
> > turning-points in life for which a kiss is quite enough.

This last bit, after the colon, is a quote from Philip Pullman, not a 
quote of Barb.  I probably should not have used the angled brackets 
(a.k.a. the little >s) so that this would be clearer and better 
distinctified from the way I had been quoting Barb.  Of course, after 
this point, all the quotes are from Barb again.

-Luke




From Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com  Fri Feb 15 07:56:23 2002
From: Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com (Aberforth's Goat)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 08:56:23 +0100
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] *removes curtain*
References: <a4hrhi+kqj0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00b001c1b5f6$43f29c40$0200a8c0@shasta>

Welcome back Sinead!

Of course, since all the rest of us are perfect and have never
written a dumb email in our lives, we're terribly shocked. <g>

Forget it! (Though I, for one, won't forget that you had the
courage to come back.)

Baaaaaa!

Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray)
_______________________

"Of course, I'm not entirely sure he can read, so that may not
have
been bravery...."



_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From macloudt at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Feb 15 11:17:21 2002
From: macloudt at yahoo.co.uk (macloudt)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 11:17:21 -0000
Subject: *removes curtain*
In-Reply-To: <a4hrhi+kqj0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a4iqo1+jgc3@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "sineadsiobhan" <sinead at b...> wrote:
> *removes the curtain, takes off her Mafalda costume, kicks it 
aside, 
> mutters at herself for doing such a stupid thing, all because she 
was 
> pissed off at a number of things over the weekend and decided to 
vent 
> her anger under a pseudonym name* 
> 
> I know I did an incredibly stupid thing by posting under an unknown 
> name. I was really pissed off and I did a dumb thing venting like
> that 
> to the list. I know I've offended the list greatly and I've been 
> feeling guilty and feeling really, really bad. I'm glad you guys 
gave 
> me a beating for being so high and mighty and other stuff...

Show me someone who claims they've never done something similar in 
their lives and I'll show you (a) Mother Teresa, or (b) a blatant 
liar.

You've apologized...apology accepted.  So let's forgive and forget 
and get back to the usual friendship.  As you've revealed yourself 
and given an apology I see no reason for you to leave.  As I said 
earlier, life's too short for multiple hang-ups.

On with the Show!

Mary Ann :)  




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Fri Feb 15 12:55:50 2002
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (lupinesque)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 12:55:50 -0000
Subject: Philip Pullman - His Dark Materials
In-Reply-To: <a4i4vl+ku8i@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a4j0gm+621e@eGroups.com>

<Barb and Luke on Pullman's Will>

It is only Will's own thoughts that would make an audience think he 
was a murderer for that first death, I think.  At least, that's what I 
was thinking as I read it--"come on, Will, you didn't mean to kill 
him"--and so what emerged was a sense not that Will was dangerous but 
that he was extremely, even overly, conscientious.  How will that be 
brought across in a screenplay, I wonder?

The alethiometer, on the other hand, says he's a murderer.  So it's as 
hyperconscientious as Will.  

They could omit Will's whole evolution, how much he's sickened by 
violence (even accidentally inflicted), which would be a shame because 
I like it--but there are several complex characters in those books and 
they'll have to be greatly simplified.  I have never understood why 
Lyra relaxes when she learns he's a murderer, though I'm intrigued by 
it, and I'd love to hear people's interpretations.

Amy (whose daemon is a meerkat)
shuddering at the thought of a computer-generated Pantalaimon




From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Fri Feb 15 14:59:32 2002
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 14:59:32 -0000
Subject: *removes curtain*
In-Reply-To: <a4hrhi+kqj0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a4j7ok+q1pe@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "sineadsiobhan" <sinead at b...> wrote:
I'm really and truly sorry that it has 
> happened and I'm sorry that if Mafalda/Sinead tried to break up the 
> list. 
> 
>
Apology unconditionally accepted.  Was it part of the cunning plan 
that you spelt 'behaviour' the British way, and 'psychoanalyzed' the 
American way, to throw the bloodhounds off the scent?

HPFGU *is* quite a complicated place, and I think it's very easy to 
feel that the *real* life of the group is happening somewhere just 
round the corner or hidden from view.  From there it is but a step to 
speculate that leadership decisions are made in order to create and 
perpetuate that situation.

I always struggle with the feeling, IRL as well as on and off-list, 
that people are only being polite and really they only tolerate (in 
the bad sense) me.

I don't know what the answer is - extracting assurances from people 
that they like you works for a short time, but I rationalise it as 
politeness after a while.  Possibly we do need more impoliteness, 
after all, to earth it all in reality.

David, who used to be envious of all these people who seem to be so 
at home in Chat, like Sinead




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Fri Feb 15 16:23:04 2002
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 16:23:04 -0000
Subject: Email disasters was Re: *removes curtain*
In-Reply-To: <00b001c1b5f6$43f29c40$0200a8c0@shasta>
Message-ID: <a4jcl8+gis0@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "Aberforth's Goat" 
<Aberforths_Goat at Y...> wrote:
> Welcome back Sinead!
> 
> Of course, since all the rest of us are perfect and have never
> written a dumb email in our lives, we're terribly shocked. <g>
> 
> Forget it! (Though I, for one, won't forget that you had the
> courage to come back.)

What he said.

And so this won't be a forbidden me too post...fess up everybody. 
Tell us your best  dumb email story. Here's mine.


  I am a member of the board of my synagogue. We were having 
a disagreement with a prominent member, and we arranged a 
meeting with him to talk things out. Prior to the meeting, another 
board member emailed me to ask what I felt the problem was. I 
emailed  back, expressing all my grievances in  polite but not 
very diplomatic language. And he forwarded it to the guy! Who 
stormed into the meeting with a copy in his hand.
Aughh!

Pippin






From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca  Fri Feb 15 17:15:55 2002
From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (lucky_kari)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 17:15:55 -0000
Subject: Hello!
Message-ID: <a4jfob+p2ed@eGroups.com>

Hi, I just subscribed to the OT-list, and I'm going to unsubscribe 
again, now, being one of those very timid people who is afraid of 
where OT discussions can go, but I wanted to post a Thankyou Note to 
the powers that be that would be clearly OT on the main list.

I am still, I feel, a newbie, only joining the list in early December. 
And it's been a great experience. At first, it was a challenge trying 
to keep track of all the rules, but the list's Moderated policy was a 
wonderful way of getting me off my feet. The extensive FAQ were very 
helpful in letting me know not to post, "Did anyone else notice that 
gleam in Dumbledore's eyes?" At first, I felt overwhelmed, and just 
read, but now I post way too much, and have earned myself a reputation 
as one of those terrible FEATHERBOAS members. 

On occasions, I've contravened the rules, and receieved Howlers for 
those lapses. I've tried to take these with good grace, because I 
really did deserve them. They remind me to behave more dutifully in 
the future. 

I am so very grateful that politics has been banned from the list, 
since I would be guilty of wading into it, if it hadn't. 

This has definitely been the most positive list I've ever been on, 
other than ones consisting of RL friends. Usually, I quit lists after 
awhile because of chaos and rancour that seems to abound on them, but 
HPFGU has got to be the most fair-spoken, well-oiled, fun list I've 
ever encountered. I salute and thank the moderators and all the 
members!

Eileen




From Joanne0012 at aol.com  Fri Feb 15 17:30:39 2002
From: Joanne0012 at aol.com (joanne0012)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 17:30:39 -0000
Subject: Email disasters was Re: *removes curtain*
In-Reply-To: <a4jcl8+gis0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a4jgjv+gfg0@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> wrote:
> another 
> board member emailed me to ask what I felt the problem was. I 
> emailed  back, expressing all my grievances in  polite but not 
> very diplomatic language. And he forwarded it to the guy! Who 
> stormed into the meeting with a copy in his hand.
> Aughh!

Yikes, what a jerk.  I guess my Mom was right when she told us to never put 
anything in writing if we wouldn't want to see it on the front page of (insert 
name of local newspaper).  I guess that includes e-mails!




From macloudt at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Feb 15 17:44:34 2002
From: macloudt at yahoo.co.uk (macloudt)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 17:44:34 -0000
Subject: Had to share this!
Message-ID: <a4jhe2+sehu@eGroups.com>

:::::wiping tears out of her eyes:::::

Just a few moments ago I sat down with my cup of tea and happily 
logged on.  In walks DH Beth (almost 5) who toddles up to me, stares 
me straight in the chest, and says:

"Gee, Mummy, you have big muscles".

I plan to give this child a Basic Anatomy lesson just as soon as I 
can stop laughing and clean up the mouthful of tea I spewed all over 
the computer desk.

Mary Ann
(who *does* have a big chest...but they ain't muscles ;) )




From kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk  Fri Feb 15 17:59:04 2002
From: kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk (Kathryn)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 17:59:04 -0000
Subject: Olympics
Message-ID: <005501c1b64a$75c58a80$fb1c86d9@monica>

Hey, they just cave the Canadian Pairs Couple a gold medal. yay!

K
If an advisor says to me "My liege, he is but one man. What can one man possibly do?", I will reply "This." and kill the advisor.
http://minievil.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Fri Feb 15 18:44:22 2002
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (lupinesque)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 18:44:22 -0000
Subject: Happy birthday, Inge!
Message-ID: <a4jku6+5i10@eGroups.com>

Miss Norbert von Ridgeback, a.k.a. Inge, celebrates her birthday 
today.  Owls will find her at Gryffindor Tower if sent to 
wim.fok at consunet.nl, or of course to this list.

Have a magical day, Inge!

Amy




From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Fri Feb 15 18:44:48 2002
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 18:44:48 -0000
Subject: Email disasters was Re: *removes curtain*
In-Reply-To: <a4jgjv+gfg0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a4jkv0+4htg@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "joanne0012" <Joanne0012 at a...> wrote:
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> wrote:
> > another 
> > board member emailed me to ask what I felt the problem was. I 
> > emailed  back, expressing all my grievances in  polite but not 
> > very diplomatic language. And he forwarded it to the guy! Who 
> > stormed into the meeting with a copy in his hand.
> > Aughh!
> 
> Yikes, what a jerk.  I guess my Mom was right when she told us to 
never put 
> anything in writing if we wouldn't want to see it on the front page 
of (insert 
> name of local newspaper).  I guess that includes e-mails!

On the contrary, we are not truly human until we realise we *are* 
that jerk.  

David




From caliburncy at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 15 18:57:11 2002
From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 18:57:11 -0000
Subject: Philip Pullman - His Dark Materials
In-Reply-To: <a4j0gm+621e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a4jlm7+gf7g@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "lupinesque" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> It is only Will's own thoughts that would make an audience think he 
> was a murderer for that first death, I think.  At least, that's
> what I was thinking as I read it--"come on, Will, you didn't mean
> to kill him"--and so what emerged was a sense not that Will was
> dangerous but that he was extremely, even overly, conscientious.
> How will that be brought across in a screenplay, I wonder?

I was thinking the same thing! :-)

Everything from this point on is As Far As I Know.  I am no expert, 
nor even a terribly well-versed layman, when it comes to filmmaking.

The "conscientious" bit would actually probably not be that difficult 
to convey in the final product, but the onus would lie almost 
entirely on the actor and the director, not on the screenwriter.  
This is because most of this would be conveyed primarily through 
hesitations and facial expressions ("beats", really).  In this 
instance, a screenwriter would need to write some kind of reference 
to these things into the screenplay (I think the standard practice is 
to put "beats", like other descriptions, in square brackets), but the 
ultimate success, I suspect, would be dependent upon whether or not 
the director, especially, is familiar enough with this aspect of the 
book in order to solicit these kinds of reactions from the actor.

In other words, most screenwriters are not pretentious enough  (nor 
would they be successful in the industry if they were) to write in 
very much in the way of explanatory stuff.  Some surely, but very 
little.  So a screenwriter might write "[Will looks back over his 
shoulder at the body on the stairs and blanches]" (although even 
this, for a 'visionary' director might be invading their space too 
much), but the screenwriter would never continue "[Will blanches 
because . . .]"  The director and actor need to understand and convey 
the motivations behind the actions.

 
> The alethiometer, on the other hand, says he's a murderer.  So it's 
> as hyperconscientious as Will.

This actually, I found almost more surprising and illogical than 
Lyra's later comment (below).  Okay, let's assume that the 
alethiometer, being an infallible arbiter of truth, uses dictionary 
definitions for precision of language.  If so, then every dictionary 
definition of "murder" that I have ever seen goes beyond 
merely "killing".  i.e. My Webster's New World Dictionary Second 
College Edition gives: "the unlawful and malicious or premeditated 
killing of one human being by another".

Okay, let's apply this to Will's situation.  Unlawful?  There's no 
real way of knowing how this would play out in court, but let's just 
be agreeable and assume, for the moment, that it *would* be deemed 
unlawful (although in truth I doubt it).  Premeditated?  No, but 
since that is preceeded by the word "or", it doesn't have to be to 
qualify as murder (only to qualify, legally speaking, as first 
degree).

So okay then, but malicious?  I don't see this at all in Will's 
situation.  Did the alethiometer perceive malicious intent here?  If 
so, I would be rather surprised.

Pullman uses the O.E.D, as I recall, and even if he doesn't it should 
probably be used as the standard in this instance since HDM is 
British.  Does the O.E.D. give a wildly different interpretation of 
the word "murder", or something?

Obviously, since alethiometer uses symbols, not words, one could 
argue that the choice of the word "murderer" is Lyra's own 
interpretation and there is definitely some validity in this.  But in 
all other circumstances it seems as if the Dust (i.e. controlling the 
alethiometer) conveys its original intent quite clearly despite any 
allegorical hurdles.


> They could omit Will's whole evolution, how much he's sickened by 
> violence (even accidentally inflicted), which would be a shame
> because I like it--but there are several complex characters in
> those books and they'll have to be greatly simplified.

You are right that some of the complex characters will need to be 
simplified, but I highly doubt that this will include Will, seeing as 
how Will is the second most important character in the story.  
<Luke's eye takes on a threatening glint> Right, Mr. Filmmakers?  
Right?

If I were doing this film (ha!), I would definitely *not* get rid of 
the way he is sickened by violence, because frankly, if we go back to 
Barb's point about acceptability, this is one of the things that 
makes the books palatable from an ethical standpoint.  Why get rid of 
it, if doing so would only alienate more viewers?  Furthermore, I am 
well aware of time constraints and differences in medium, but these 
do not seem to greatly impact Will's evolution--this still should be 
possible to convey in a film adaptation.  The things more likely to 
go, due to these time constraints, are a lot of the trivial subplots 
and characters, like pretty much anything involving Ruta Skadi, who 
is almost totally useless from a plot point of view (and I can't say 
I'd miss her, myself, but that's beside the point).  Or anything that 
works well in a book, but does not convey well to the screen 
(differences in medium), especially any sort of exposition and any 
thoughts.  And it is pretty much inevitable that events will be 
altered, combined, and eliminated to some extent (a la LOTR, 
especially), but of course the questions "how" and "which ones" 
depends on the screenwriter, who, for all I know, might even decide 
to *keep* Ruta Skadi.


> I have never understood why Lyra relaxes when she learns he's a
> murderer, though I'm intrigued by it, and I'd love to hear people's 
> interpretations.

Well, I took this at sort of face value, but I can't say I have ever 
felt like I fully understood it either--if there is something beyond 
the face value (explained hereafter) then I don't have any clue what 
it is.

I suspect one of the biggest reasons is because Iorek Byrnison, too, 
is a murderer, and I do not think Lyra automatically equates being a 
murderer with being a terrible person largely because of this 
influence (in truth the same could be said for people like Lee 
Scoresby, but the book seems to particularly emphasize the 
comparisons between Will and Iorek, in more than one instance).  But 
furthermore, her impression of a murderer seems to be that a murderer 
is someone who can do what they have to do, who isn't, as the book 
puts it, "untrustworthy or cowardly".

Obviously this is a bit of a mental leap in logic, because it is 
especially a fallacy to presume an inherent connection between 
trustworthiness and being a murderer (on *either* side of the coin, I 
might add: it is equally a fallacy to presume that all murderers are 
untrustworthy).  Even Lyra does not seem to pan this thought of hers 
out to its full implications, which would require her to deem people 
such as Lord Asriel, Mrs. Coulter, Father Gomez, etc. as also 
trustworthy, which does not appear to be the case.

I think the reason that in this instance it "relaxes" her, rather 
than putting her on her guard is frankly just because I think Lyra 
already has started to get some sense of who Will is, and so her 
first instinct is not to presume that Will is a murderer in the 
dangerous sense, but to presume a character more parallel to that of 
Iorek.  That first interpretation perhaps just fit better with what 
she already knew about him and subsequently relaxed her because it 
reassured her of some other things that she did not already know (see 
above).

Does that make it logical?  Well, no.  It's twisted.  But I think I 
can sort of see how she came to that conclusion.

Hmm, I bet that didn't really help at all, because my gut instinct is 
telling me that Amy was already quite aware of everything I just 
wrote, and that she too, like me, is just wondering if there is some 
deeper explanation.

Okay, what the heck, I'll try and take a stab in the dark at that.  
My suspicion, although I would *love* to hear theories to the 
contrary, is that, no, there is no explanation beyond that face value 
one.  But I do think there is a *purpose* that is deeper than the 
face value, because it's pretty obvious that Pullman's motivation in 
writing that line was ultimately not because he thought it was in 
character for Lyra.  Sure, it may well *be* in character for Lyra, 
but I don't think that's really why he wrote it.  I notice that one 
of Pullman's particular skills is to add a touch of sensationalism in 
order to make a point, by phrasing things in an off-kilter manner or 
expressing an idea that's inherently contrary to the conventional 
wisdom.  The purpose always seems to be, as best as I can tell, not 
necessarily to have people swallow whole and be converted to the 
things he is saying, but to jolt them back into a position of re-
examining their own take on the conventional wisdom.

Obviously, Pullman at no point in HDM condones murder, but the 
comment about murderers (which is, IMO, a *very* distinct concept 
from murder) does seem to have, as a primary goal, a little bit of 
shock value just to get the reader in a position to effectively re-
examine themes (for which this question of "murderers" is a very well-
suited introductory example) such as people vs. actions, intentions 
vs. results, and, yes, even the quintessential good vs. evil.  The 
latter of which I was pleased to see Pullman take on in a non-
traditional fashion throughout HDM, but I wish he had gone even 
further into what I believe to be the next step, into what I (and 
perhaps others, though I don't know about them) call non-comparative 
morality.  That would have made me cheer.  As it is, I can't help but 
have certain qualms with Pullman's expressed worldview (though since 
it's his and not mine I will leave it to its own devices), because 
was so disappointed to feel like it falls just a little short of my 
own personal best guess at the truth.  So close to a bit of 
affirmation and then . . . doh! didn't quite make it.  Anyway, that's 
another story.

-Luke




From Joanne0012 at aol.com  Fri Feb 15 19:23:02 2002
From: Joanne0012 at aol.com (joanne0012)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 19:23:02 -0000
Subject: Olympics
In-Reply-To: <005501c1b64a$75c58a80$fb1c86d9@monica>
Message-ID: <a4jn6m+4l3p@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "Kathryn" <kcawte at k...> wrote:
> Hey, they just cave the Canadian Pairs Couple a gold medal. yay!
> 

BUT was that "a" Gold Medal or "the" Gold Medal?  Did they recalibrate the votes 
taking out the Frenchwoman's (which is what I would've advocated) or did they 
just issue another one?  In other words, what happened to the Russians?  




From jdumas at kingwoodcable.com  Fri Feb 15 19:52:44 2002
From: jdumas at kingwoodcable.com (Katze)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 13:52:44 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Olympics
References: <a4jn6m+4l3p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3C6D670C.1A4ADE78@kingwoodcable.com>

joanne0012 wrote:

> BUT was that "a" Gold Medal or "the" Gold Medal?  Did they recalibrate the votes
> taking out the Frenchwoman's (which is what I would've advocated) or did they
> just issue another one?  In other words, what happened to the Russians?
> 

They issued another set of Gold medals for the Canadians. The Russians
will keep their Gold Medals. 

-Katze



From kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk  Fri Feb 15 20:00:04 2002
From: kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk (Kathryn)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 20:00:04 -0000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Olympics
References: <a4jn6m+4l3p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <003b01c1b65b$5d8ebfc0$b01986d9@monica>

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: joanne0012 
  To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, February 15, 2002 7:23 PM
  Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Olympics


  --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "Kathryn" <kcawte at k...> wrote:
  > Hey, they just cave the Canadian Pairs Couple a gold medal. yay!
  > 

  BUT was that "a" Gold Medal or "the" Gold Medal?  Did they recalibrate the votes 
  taking out the Frenchwoman's (which is what I would've advocated) or did they 
  just issue another one?  In other words, what happened to the Russians?  

  Yes! They took out the French judge's marks which meant that it was 4 votes each for the Canadians and the Russians so they declared it a tie. I know the Canadians deserved to win outright but you can't just take the medal away from the Russians
  Although apparently (I didn't see this my dad did) the Russian guy all but said they didn't deserve it in an interview.

  K


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From cindysphynx at home.com  Fri Feb 15 20:04:33 2002
From: cindysphynx at home.com (cindysphynx)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 20:04:33 -0000
Subject: Olympics
In-Reply-To: <3C6D670C.1A4ADE78@kingwoodcable.com>
Message-ID: <a4jpkh+l11c@eGroups.com>

Joanne asked:

> 
> > BUT was that "a" Gold Medal or "the" Gold Medal?  Did they 
recalibrate the votes
> > taking out the Frenchwoman's (which is what I would've advocated) 
or did they
> > just issue another one?  In other words, what happened to the 
Russians?
> > 

Katze replied:

> They issued another set of Gold medals for the Canadians. The 
Russians
> will keep their Gold Medals. 

Further details are that apparently there is always an alternate 
judge in a competition of this importance.  A 10th judge, if you 
will.  He/she scores the competition, but they don't count the 
alternate's vote unless there's some highly unusual reason.  I 
suppose if a judge had a stroke during a program, they could use the 
alternate's vote.

The pairs alternate was a Czech judge.  They have not stated the 
marks the Czech alternate would have awarded.  My guess (and it is 
only my guess) is that the Czech alternate was not promised a bribe 
or otherwise compromised, and so gave higher marks to the Canadians.  
After all, if the Czech alternate ranked the Russians higher, the 
skating union could just disqualify the French judge, use the 
alternate's marks, and the Russians would still have the gold.

If, however, the skating union disqualified the French judge, they 
might have to use the marks of the alternate, therefore creating a 5-
4 split in favor of the Canadians, giving them the gold and giving 
the Russians the silver.  To avoid that debacle (and to avoid 
destroying the poor Russian skaters who did nothing wrong), the 
skating union is just awarding a double gold and hoping to get out of 
the spotlight.

I would love to be a fly on the wall while all of this wrangling is 
going on.  I suspect the Olympic Committee really put a headlock on 
the skating union people.  I'll bet the conversation was something 
like "Award a second gold medal *right now* or the only way Ice 
Dancers will be in the next Olympics is if they buy tickets."

I believe the rank order for the men's competition was spot on and 
totally fair.  I will be watching the ladies' competition closely.  I 
have never understood the high marks Irina Slutskaya always receives 
for presentation.  Perhaps all of this scrutiny will make the ladies' 
competition a bit more fair.

Cindy (who is a *huge* figure skating fan, but who thinks ice dancing 
should be dropped from the Olympics because it is rigged, too 
subjective and barely a sport anyway)




From kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk  Fri Feb 15 20:14:04 2002
From: kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk (Kathryn)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 20:14:04 -0000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Olympics
References: <a4jpkh+l11c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <004701c1b65d$52273700$b01986d9@monica>

Now I'd disagree. I think the presentation markes for the American were too low. He wasn't as extravagently expressive as Pluschenko but then his music didn't need that, it would have loked wrong, and technically his programme was the more difficult.
Normally I love Pluschenko BTW (not enough to learn to spell his name tho)
Yagudin obviously deserved gold tho, no question

K
If an advisor says to me "My liege, he is but one man. What can one man possibly do?", I will reply "This." and kill the advisor.
http://minievil.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: cindysphynx 
  To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, February 15, 2002 8:04 PM
  Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Olympics
  I believe the rank order for the men's competition was spot on and 
  totally fair.  I will be watching the ladies' competition closely.  I 
  have never understood the high marks Irina Slutskaya always receives 
  for presentation.  Perhaps all of this scrutiny will make the ladies' 
  competition a bit more fair.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From firefightermichelle at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 15 20:25:55 2002
From: firefightermichelle at yahoo.com (firefightermichelle)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 20:25:55 -0000
Subject: This is sort of HP related
Message-ID: <a4jqsj+qcns@eGroups.com>

In a round-a-bout way!

TOday I became technically more advanced!  I bought a CD-R/DVD-ROM 
drive for my computer ... I can now burn CD's and watch DVD's on 
my 'puter!  After fighting with the DVD software for 2 hours ... 2 
friggin hours!! I finally figured out what was wrong and fixed it!  
Now I am watching "Pump Up the Volume" (which is one of my very 
favourite movies!) on my computer!   Well, write now I'm looking at a 
post screen ... but you get the point!

But here's the really, really kick-butt part ..... I also bought a 
portable CD player that plays CD's with MP3's on them ... so now .... 
I can put all 4 of the Harry Potter books on CD and take them with e 
wherever I go!!  YAH!!!!

Ok, so it is really possible that this is only tremendously exciting 
to me ... but I figured I could share with you guys and you'd either 
laugh at me or be excited with me!

YAH!!!  HP on CD and I didn't have to pay a ridiculous price for them!

Michelle :) <---who is OBVIOUSLY quite easily amused!




From kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk  Fri Feb 15 20:30:33 2002
From: kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk (Kathryn)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 20:30:33 -0000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] This is sort of HP related
References: <a4jqsj+qcns@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <005901c1b65f$9f585840$b01986d9@monica>

Yay you
I have a new DVD-ROM to install. Last one I installed was apparently fool proof and I messed up and my computer stopped working until I took out my other drive (No I don't know why)
So if I suddenly vanish this weekend I think we can all guess why :)

K
If an advisor says to me "My liege, he is but one man. What can one man possibly do?", I will reply "This." and kill the advisor.
http://minievil.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: firefightermichelle 
  To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, February 15, 2002 8:25 PM
  Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] This is sort of HP related
  YAH!!!  HP on CD and I didn't have to pay a ridiculous price for them!

  Michelle :) <---who is OBVIOUSLY quite easily amused!


        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
              ADVERTISEMENT
             
       
       

  ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________

  Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the group's Admin Files!
  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/

  Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying!

  Is your message...
  An announcement of merchandise, news etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements.
  Movie-related? Send it to HPFGU-Movie.
  Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups.
  None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter.
  Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com

  Unsubscribing? Email HPFGU-OTChatter-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
  ____________________________________________________________


  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 15 20:33:10 2002
From: witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com (Wanda Mallett)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 12:33:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Had to share this!
In-Reply-To: <a4jhe2+sehu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20020215203310.90518.qmail@web13703.mail.yahoo.com>


 
  macloudt <macloudt at yahoo.co.uk> wrote: 
:::::wiping tears out of her eyes:::::

"Gee, Mummy, you have big muscles".

I plan to give this child a Basic Anatomy lesson just as soon as I 
can stop laughing and clean up the mouthful of tea I spewed all over 
the computer desk.

Mary Ann
(who *does* have a big chest...but they ain't muscles ;) )


Thank you for that story! We all need a good harty chuckle to clear the brain matter! Children can be the best medicine with their innocence. 

Schnoogles,

Wanda the Witch of Revere, Massacgusetts and Her Very Merry Band of Muggles 100%



---------------------------------
Do You Yahoo!?
Got something to say? Say it better with Yahoo! Video Mail

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From selah_1977 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 15 05:03:08 2002
From: selah_1977 at yahoo.com (selah_1977)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 05:03:08 -0000
Subject: My SHIP is sinking...
In-Reply-To: <3C69E6BD.7CCE8634@kingwoodcable.com>
Message-ID: <a4i4qc+7s6f@eGroups.com>

Haven't read this list in quite some time, but just before the 
controversy (*schnoogles her beloved friends Penny and John*) there 
was an interesting post.  I read the responses, and just wanted to 
stick my head in and give the other point of view.

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., Katze <jdumas at k...> wrote:
> First...I'm sending this to the OT list because I'm more talking 
about fanfics than I am canon. 
> 
> Up front, I'll tell you that I used to be a R/Hr shipper, and a
> Harry/?-not-Ginny shipper.
> 
> I dare say that my original idea of an Hr/R pairing is beginning to
> wane, and it's all due to the fanfics I've started to read. I'm now
> finding that I'm ever so slowly becoming a R/death-or-? shipper 
(which doesn't bode well for Ron's fate), Hr/H shipper, and even a 
D/G shipper (Draco will have to clean up his act first though). 
> 
> After reading various fanfics, I've found a very strange pattern 
occur is fics that end up H/Hr.  It seems that the impulse reaction 
is to pair Ron and Hermione, and Harry with either Ginny or x (I 
won't read fics where he's dead). What disturbs me is that Ron is 
either made to be the bad guy/bad husband, or he is killed off in 
order to make the Harry/Hermione happen. Why is this?
> 


Well, I think this may be because of the following:

1)  Ron/Hermione (either relationship or tension) is often considered 
as a foregone canon conclusion by all, no matter what their shipping 
preference.  

2)  In order to pair off Harry and Hermione, you have to deal with a  
canon-assumed Ron/Hermione pairing, if your story is to have some 
canon basis.

3)  From what we've learned about Ron's character, he isn't likely to 
passively accept a Harry/Hermione pairing, which leads to conflict.


Of course, in one of the best and most popular H/H fanfics (the Draco 
Dormiens series by Cassandra Claire), there was pre-story R/H that 
didn't work out, and Ron in the 2 1/2 novels posted thus far has been 
neither bad nor dead.  So the above statement is either a pretty 
broad generalization, or a very specific fanfictional trope is being 
referred to.  

H/H fanfiction runs the gamut, and so does Ron's place in it.

--Ebony AKA AngieJ
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Paradise
http://www.fictionalley.org




From cindysphynx at home.com  Fri Feb 15 20:54:09 2002
From: cindysphynx at home.com (cindysphynx)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 20:54:09 -0000
Subject: Olympics
In-Reply-To: <004701c1b65d$52273700$b01986d9@monica>
Message-ID: <a4jshh+p7av@eGroups.com>

Katherine wrote:

> Now I'd disagree. I think the presentation markes for the American 
>were too low. He wasn't as extravagently expressive as Pluschenko 
>but then his music didn't need that, it would have loked wrong, and 
>technically his programme was the more difficult.

Mmmm, I don't think it is entirely fair to say Goebel's program was 
technically more difficult.  I have heard this, but I don't buy it.  
True, Goebel had 3 quads, and Pleshenko had 2.  But Pleshenko did a 
Beilman spin and some other head-touches-the-skate spin, and he's the 
only guy in the world who can do that.  Also, I think he gets better 
height on his jumps and skates with a great deal more speed, which is 
reflected in both marks.  I say that even though I personally didn't 
like Pleshenko's choreography as much as I liked Goebel's.  

Of course, the Russians have promised me a fur coat if I will say 
nice things about their skater.  :-)  

Cindy (who thinks it is hilarious that figure skating judges wear fur 
coats *inside* a warm auditorium)




From ftah3 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 15 20:57:36 2002
From: ftah3 at yahoo.com (ftah3)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 20:57:36 -0000
Subject: Had to share this!
In-Reply-To: <a4jhe2+sehu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a4jso0+k4m3@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "macloudt" <macloudt at y...> wrote:
> :::::wiping tears out of her eyes:::::
> 
> Just a few moments ago I sat down with my cup of tea and happily 
> logged on.  In walks DH Beth (almost 5) who toddles up to me, 
stares 
> me straight in the chest, and says:
> 
> "Gee, Mummy, you have big muscles".
> 
> I plan to give this child a Basic Anatomy lesson just as soon as I 
> can stop laughing and clean up the mouthful of tea I spewed all 
over 
> the computer desk.
> 
> Mary Ann
> (who *does* have a big chest...but they ain't muscles ;) )

LOL!  Yes, anatomy lessons...my son is three, and I try to teach him 
the proper terms for body parts, because I figure he'll hear them 
refered to one way or another.  So yesterday at the grocery store, he 
brings up the octopus-witch Ursula from the Disney film "The Little 
Mermaid."  He can't remember her name, and asks me.  I tell him, and 
after a thoughtful moment observes (loudly, of *course*) "Well, 
sometimes Ursu-a shakes her breasts a lot."

Eep!  And you know, she does, in the movie, when she does her little 
seduce-the-mermaid song and dance.  But leave it to my son to 
announce that he's noticed, at the grocery store.  :-P

Mahoney




From ftah3 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 15 21:23:54 2002
From: ftah3 at yahoo.com (ftah3)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 21:23:54 -0000
Subject: My SHIP is sinking...
In-Reply-To: <a4e9ob+i248@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a4ju9a+p9sv@eGroups.com>

pippin wrote:
> Ron, the wizarding world's boy next door, lives in a 
> ramshackle house where the pipes bang, there's mouths to feed 
> and chores to do, people have jobs that aren't going anywhere 
> and nobody  appreciates him. Not much fuel for fantasy there 
> either.  And why do people write fanfic? Because they don't want 
> the fantasy to end.  But Ron is the end of the story. After he wins 
> Hermione there's nothing more to say except, "and they lived 
> happily ever after", unless you want to write about banging pipes 
> and such.

Oh, fie.  This is fanfic, after all!  Ron has shown himself to be 
well able to both get himself into trouble and also to get out of 
it.  He's shown a heroic side (let's himself be blonked on the head 
in the first book For The Cause).  He's shown that he's the keeper of 
multitudes of emotions, including loyalty, angst, love, anger, hate, 
hot-headedness, fair-mindedness, etc etc.  Imho, given all this, he's 
a very good candidate for a fanfictional hero who, thanks to the 
adoration of the fanfic writer, gets to be in the spotlight and 
really show his stuff.  I.e., Hero Harry isn't around, but Ron still 
ends up in the thick of things and Saves the Day!  Gets the Girl 
(whichever one)! Goes on to become a Famous Auror, which is Handy, 
because while Harry defeated Voldemort (that's speculation there, 
folks, for the sake of discussion), there are still Bad Guys out 
there, and in fact a few ambitious former Death Eaters raise a 
guerrilla-like army of Vampires and other such Nasties, and Ron 
Weasley, auror extraordinaire (think crusty but suave detective a la 
a Humphrey Bogart character or possibly even Indiana Jones), must go 
on a secret mission to....

Hm, what started out as tongue-in-cheek has become rather fun.  Go 
Ron!  Woo!

> Of course I think Hermione and Ron are going to be a great 
> couple, but to write about them you have to think about what it's 
> really like to love somebody and not about that wonderful 
> nebulous "being in love" which is the stuff of romance novels 
> and bathtub fantasy.

Eh?  Considering (arguable) implications of Ron's & Hermione's 
simmering and as yet unrequited lurve for each other, couldn't you 
just see them falling passionately into each others' arms?

[cue melodrama]

"Hermione, I -- I'm sorry.  I can't do this any more."

"What, Ron?" A tremor of hope ran through Hermione, warming her as 
the romantic fire in the fireplace of the conveniently empty ski 
lodge decorated with tactfully placed bear skins and oddly sourceless 
but usefully placed mood lights could not.  "...please, you can tell 
me."

The snow storm, in which all of the other vacationers were handily 
lost at the moment (hence the emptiness of the lodge), battered the 
windows, raging like the tumultous emotions gripping Ron's heart.  He 
steeled himself; he *had* to tell her, and damn the consequences!

"I know you love Harry, Hermione, but I won't hide the way I feel 
anymore.  I...I love you!"

Hermione gasped.  It was what she hoped all along!  Her dream come 
true!  

Ron could see the feelings writ clear on Hermione's face, and he 
thought, can it be?  Can it truly be?  But then a shadow darkened his 
beloved's exquisite features.

"You complete and utter git!  Have you waited all this time to tell 
me this because you thought I loved *Harry*?"  She socked him soundly 
on the shoulder.  "That's so you, Ron.  Good thing I love you as 
well, or you'd never live it down."

They fell passionately into each other's embrace and snogged in front 
of the fire on a handy bear skin....

[uncue melodrama]

See?  Could happen.  [Incidentally, any similarity of the above to 
actual existing fanfiction is purely coincidental, because the only 
HP fanfic I've read is John's "Keeper's Secret" (want warm fuzzies? 
it's an Oliver/Percy fic with warm fuzzies galore! *thumbs up*) so 
I've not read any Ron/Hermy off which to have plagiarized.]

Mahoney
reeeeeeeeeally glad it's Friday and I don't have to come back to work 
til next Wednesday




From Indyfans at aol.com  Fri Feb 15 21:45:12 2002
From: Indyfans at aol.com (Indyfans at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 16:45:12 EST
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Olympics, Irina, Russian remarks
Message-ID: <178.3a2577a.299edb68@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/15/02 3:06:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
cindysphynx at home.com writes:

<< 
 I believe the rank order for the men's competition was spot on and 
 totally fair.  I will be watching the ladies' competition closely.  I 
 have never understood the high marks Irina Slutskaya always receives 
 for presentation.  Perhaps all of this scrutiny will make the ladies' 
 competition a bit more fair.
 
 Cindy (who is a *huge* figure skating fan, but who thinks ice dancing 
 should be dropped from the Olympics because it is rigged, too 
 subjective and barely a sport anyway)
  >>
        I am with you about why I.S.'s presentation marks are as high as they 
are.  No way can she compete artistically with Michelle Kwan in that area.  I 
happen to like I.S., have enjoyed watching her grow up on the ice, but it 
just reinforces the notion that *the judges cheat!*   Did you hear of the 
Russian response to the awarding of the golds to the Canadians?...that "the 
fan and Western media pressure was just too great, no one noticed the 
Canadian mistakes, but that everyone jumped (pun intended) on the tiny 
mistake the Russian skaters made"...Huh???  That sounds like the old USSR 
machine, instead of the graciousness of their nation we have come to know.    
 
                               ...from Jen, who is counting down the minutes  
till the girls skate!



From kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk  Fri Feb 15 21:47:45 2002
From: kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk (Kathryn)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 21:47:45 -0000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Olympics
References: <a4jshh+p7av@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <007e01c1b66a$68f8a9c0$b01986d9@monica>

wether or not it was technically more difficult is I guess irrelevent to my arguement anyway since it was the presentation marks I disagreed with. I must admit the Bielman spin is one of the things I love the Russian for. I did think the American's jumps were as well performed as the Russians tho, if not better, he was so relaxed about it all. He looked natural. I thought Pluschenko looked tense

K
If an advisor says to me "My liege, he is but one man. What can one man possibly do?", I will reply "This." and kill the advisor.
http://minievil.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: cindysphynx 
  To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, February 15, 2002 8:54 PM
  Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Olympics


  Katherine wrote:

  > Now I'd disagree. I think the presentation markes for the American 
  >were too low. He wasn't as extravagently expressive as Pluschenko 
  >but then his music didn't need that, it would have loked wrong, and 
  >technically his programme was the more difficult.

  Mmmm, I don't think it is entirely fair to say Goebel's program was 
  technically more difficult.  I have heard this, but I don't buy it.  
  True, Goebel had 3 quads, and Pleshenko had 2.  But Pleshenko did a 
  Beilman spin and some other head-touches-the-skate spin, and he's the 
  only guy in the world who can do that.  Also, I think he gets better 
  height on his jumps and skates with a great deal more speed, which is 
  reflected in both marks.  I say that even though I personally didn't 
  like Pleshenko's choreography as much as I liked Goebel's.  

  Of course, the Russians have promised me a fur coat if I will say 
  nice things about their skater.  :-)  

  Cindy (who thinks it is hilarious that figure skating judges wear fur 
  coats *inside* a warm auditorium)


        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
              ADVERTISEMENT
             
       
       

  ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________

  Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the group's Admin Files!
  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/

  Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying!

  Is your message...
  An announcement of merchandise, news etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements.
  Movie-related? Send it to HPFGU-Movie.
  Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups.
  None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter.
  Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com

  Unsubscribing? Email HPFGU-OTChatter-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
  ____________________________________________________________


  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Fri Feb 15 21:55:59 2002
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:55:59 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] *removes curtain*
References: <a4hrhi+kqj0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00a801c1b66b$8e555f00$d37663d1@texas.net>

Great heavens, Sinead, you did the pseudonym thing and you didn't ask a
damned *thing* about Dumbledore's gleam? What were you thinking?

--Amanda





From kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk  Fri Feb 15 22:00:11 2002
From: kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk (Kathryn)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 22:00:11 -0000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Olympics, Irina, Russian remarks
References: <178.3a2577a.299edb68@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000601c1b66c$24ff0320$d42686d9@monica>

The male half of the Russian pair said that he had made a mistake and their marks should have been lower. Who made the quote you used? Because it obviously wasn't the skaters themselves. He all but said that the Canadians should have got the gold (although you couldn't expect him to say it outright, not really)

And what time do the girls go? Utah time or London time please. I can work it out from Utah time easily enough
K
If an advisor says to me "My liege, he is but one man. What can one man possibly do?", I will reply "This." and kill the advisor.
http://minievil.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Indyfans at aol.com 
  To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, February 15, 2002 9:45 PM
  Subject: Re: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Olympics, Irina, Russian remarks
  Did you hear of the 
  Russian response to the awarding of the golds to the Canadians?...that "the 
  fan and Western media pressure was just too great, no one noticed the 
  Canadian mistakes, but that everyone jumped (pun intended) on the tiny 
  mistake the Russian skaters made"...Huh???  That sounds like the old USSR 
  machine, instead of the graciousness of their nation we have come to know.    

                                 ...from Jen, who is counting down the minutes  
  till the girls skate!

  ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________

  Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the group's Admin Files!
  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/

  Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying!

  Is your message...
  An announcement of merchandise, news etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements.
  Movie-related? Send it to HPFGU-Movie.
  Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups.
  None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter.
  Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com

  Unsubscribing? Email HPFGU-OTChatter-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
  ____________________________________________________________


  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Fri Feb 15 22:08:44 2002
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 16:08:44 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: *removes curtain*
References: <a4j7ok+q1pe@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <016a01c1b66d$5693c5a0$d37663d1@texas.net>

David said:

> I always struggle with the feeling, IRL as well as on and off-list, 
> that people are only being polite and really they only tolerate (in 
> the bad sense) me.

Me too. Don't feel alone.
> 
> I don't know what the answer is - extracting assurances from people 
> that they like you works for a short time, but I rationalise it as 
> politeness after a while.  Possibly we do need more impoliteness, 
> after all, to earth it all in reality.

Woo-hoo! I have a function! I serve a purpose! 
> 
> David, who used to be envious of all these people who seem to be so 
> at home in Chat, like Sinead

Some of us just (a) type fast, and (b) talk a lot.

--Amanda




From alyeskakc at netzero.net  Fri Feb 15 22:47:55 2002
From: alyeskakc at netzero.net (alyeskakc)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 22:47:55 -0000
Subject: Olympics
In-Reply-To: <003b01c1b65b$5d8ebfc0$b01986d9@monica>
Message-ID: <a4k36r+9be5@eGroups.com>

Here is a link to the whole story about how and why the Canadians are 
getting the gold medal they deserve. The Russians are not losing 
their medal.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/olympics/2002/
http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/02/15/oly.skate.row/index.html



--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "Kathryn" <kcawte at k...> wrote:

>   Although apparently (I didn't see this my dad did) the Russian 
guy all but said they didn't deserve it in an interview.

Just to clarify this statement. Anton Sikharulidze said that he and 
Yelena deserved to win the gold not Jamie and David. I wish I could 
find the exact quote but this one below is close to what he said 
yeasterday.

Sikharulidze said: "Yes I made a small mistake in my free program but 
the judges gave small (low) marks for technical merit. 
"(The Canadians') technical marks were higher than ours were. But 
there are two marks, technical merit and artistic impression and we 
had higher marks for artistic impression. That's why I don't 
understand what's going on, why there's such a big scandal from 
nothing."
   
Berezhnaya said: "We have looked again at how we skated and we think 
we are the winners and that we deserve the gold medal." 

http://www.msnbc.com/news/707789.asp

Cheers,
Kristin

::Hopes this finally changes the way skating does conducts business::








From saitaina at wizzards.net  Fri Feb 15 22:43:52 2002
From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 14:43:52 -0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Olympics
References: <a4jshh+p7av@eGroups.com> <007e01c1b66a$68f8a9c0$b01986d9@monica>
Message-ID: <006e01c1b672$3eec8720$034e28d1@saitaina>

Alexi!

Er, sorry, I had a point to make here, let me draw my head out of
celebratory mode.  Right.  The presentation marks for Timothy Gobble were
low because it wasn't too artistically pleasing compared to Plushenko.  Yes
Timothy is the Quad King and yes he has the most incredible jumps I have
scene in a while but the artistry just wasn't there as it was in the Russian
skating.  Also his music needed something more.  Some little arm movement or
something that Timothy just didn't have.

On the other hand,  I do think that Plushenko's marks were too high as he
was lacking the passion and fire he normally skates with.  I would have
liked to see him give more but he did fine for his place.  Timothy will of
course only get better and soon we will see him on the top podium.  Remember
this was his first Olympics, he's an incredible skater for one so young and
I think he did a wonderful job for what he had to do.

Now that I've done my bit may I just say, Alexi Yagudin Rocked.  He was in
top form last night, he gave it his all and deserved the gold.  He had me in
tears and I've followed skating for years without getting emotional.  I say
we give him two medal....sorry, getting hyper about that again.

On a funny note, Anyone else think that Plushenko had a bit of a sore loser
look about him?  He kept glaring at Alexi every time the kid's back was
turned.  Poor boy, had to watch his rival win. *snickers*

Saitaina
Who is not being paid by the Russians to speak well but will happily marry
one of them for citizen ship if they would like.  *smirk*
*****
Also Doing: Watching Alexi/role-playing
Last Movie Seen: Harry Potter and the Sorcer's Stone (3rd time)
Last TV Show Seen: "Men's Freeskate: Olympics"
Current Book-"The Lunatic Cafe"




From alyeskakc at netzero.net  Fri Feb 15 22:50:41 2002
From: alyeskakc at netzero.net (alyeskakc)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 22:50:41 -0000
Subject: Olympics
In-Reply-To: <a4k36r+9be5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a4k3c1+2m2g@eGroups.com>

I found it. Here is what Anton said:

Sikharulidze, however, defended the judges' decision. 
"We were the first to skate, and there was nothing to keep our rivals 
from getting a 6.0 presentation mark for skating after us," he told 
the Sport Express, a Russian newspaper. 
"But they didn't, and that means they were not head and shoulders 
above us. ... So let me repeat, I think that our victory is a worthy 
one." 

http://saltlake2002.com/x/f/frame.htm?u=/news/slocmain_front.asp


Kristin




From Indyfans at aol.com  Fri Feb 15 22:54:08 2002
From: Indyfans at aol.com (Indyfans at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 17:54:08 EST
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Olympics, Irina, Russian remarks
Message-ID: <a0.222cdd3c.299eeb90@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/15/02 5:04:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk writes:

<< 
 The male half of the Russian pair said that he had made a mistake and their 
marks should have been lower. Who made the quote you used? Because it 
obviously wasn't the skaters themselves. He all but said that the Canadians 
should have got the gold (although you couldn't expect him to say it 
outright, not really)
 
 And what time do the girls go? Utah time or London time please. I can work 
it out from Utah time easily enough
 K >>
    It was the head of the Russian Figure Skating Federation, Valentin 
Piseyev who made those statements, to Russian NTV television.   I feel sorry 
for the Russian pair skaters, they are darned if they do, and darned if they 
don't...it wasn't their fault that this all happened.      
    According to USA Today Olympic edition, the women's short program is on 
Feb. 19th, from 7:15-11:30pm eastern (I believe that is 5:15-9:30 mountain 
<Salt Lake> time).
    Feb.21st, women's fee program, 7:45-midnight eastern (again, should be 
5:45-10 mountain time)
     Women's exhibition, Feb. 22, 8:45-11:15 eastern (6:45-9:15).  Sorry if 
I'm off on the mountain time, but hubby tells me it's correct.     Hope that 
helps!  Jen 



From kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk  Fri Feb 15 22:58:18 2002
From: kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk (Kathryn)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 22:58:18 -0000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Olympics, Irina, Russian remarks
References: <a0.222cdd3c.299eeb90@aol.com>
Message-ID: <002601c1b674$435833c0$e12986d9@monica>

about 2:15 am here then, yeah that sounds about right.
Damn the free is on Thursday night/Friday morning
I have an early class Friday, and I'm giving a presentation. Ah well my video should be working by then
Thank you kindly,

K
If an advisor says to me "My liege, he is but one man. What can one man possibly do?", I will reply "This." and kill the advisor.
http://minievil.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Indyfans at aol.com 
  To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, February 15, 2002 10:54 PM
  Subject: Re: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Olympics, Irina, Russian remarks


  In a message dated 2/15/02 5:04:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
  kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk writes:
      According to USA Today Olympic edition, the women's short program is on 
  Feb. 19th, from 7:15-11:30pm eastern (I believe that is 5:15-9:30 mountain 
  <Salt Lake> time).
      Feb.21st, women's fee program, 7:45-midnight eastern (again, should be 
  5:45-10 mountain time)
       Women's exhibition, Feb. 22, 8:45-11:15 eastern (6:45-9:15).  Sorry if 
  I'm off on the mountain time, but hubby tells me it's correct.     Hope that 
  helps!  Jen 

        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
              ADVERTISEMENT
             
       
       

  ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________

  Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the group's Admin Files!
  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/

  Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying!

  Is your message...
  An announcement of merchandise, news etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements.
  Movie-related? Send it to HPFGU-Movie.
  Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups.
  None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter.
  Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com

  Unsubscribing? Email HPFGU-OTChatter-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
  ____________________________________________________________


  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From morrigan at byz.org  Fri Feb 15 23:43:11 2002
From: morrigan at byz.org (Morrigan //Vicki//)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:43:11 -0800
Subject: Olympics
In-Reply-To: <006e01c1b672$3eec8720$034e28d1@saitaina>
Message-ID: <NFBBLPEOCLIKCDBACHIBOECFDAAA.morrigan@byz.org>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Saitaina [mailto:saitaina at wizzards.net]
>
>Timothy will of course only get better and soon we will see him on the top
podium.  >Remember this was his first Olympics, he's an incredible skater
for one so young
>and I think he did a wonderful job for what he had to do.

It's times like these that I'm glad I don't live near my family. ;)  My
younger sister was a competitive figure skater for most of our childhoods,
so I know a LOT about the world of figure skating from my own experiences
being on the sidelines as well as my mom and my sister being in the thick of
things.  My sister actually skated with Tim for 2 years (and was coached by
some very famous names, but I'll refrain from namedropping further *grin*),
so Mom and Barb have been crazy this week, going on about his chances and
whatnot.  And the pairs controversy...my mother could write you a
dissertation. ;)  I still appreciate figure skating, but I think that at
least in part to rebel, but mostly because of an ex, I became a huge hockey
fan after moving out to California.  So my Olympics is mostly about hockey -
watching Canada vs Sweden at the moment.

But...wait!  I can be vaguely on topic!  On the off topic list!  This may be
against the rules, but it doesn't belong on the main list either, so here ya
go: did anyone else see the Olympian they were referring to as "The
Real-Life Harry Potter"?  I was only half-watching the Olympics the other
night at like 3 am (ahh, unemployment, you can keep freakish hours), and all
of the sudden Bob Costas is holding up HPSS and going on about invisibility
cloaks.  Then of course I HAD to pay attention!  Finally figured out that
they were talking about the young guy who just won 2 golds in skiing after
suffering a HEAD INJURY in January.  Yes, as in LAST month.  They showed
some pics of him after the injury...ouch.  His name is Simon (Simi) Ammann
and he's from Switzerland.  I think the HP tie-in came mostly because he
wears silver wire-framed glasses, not round but oval, and has dark messy
hair.  LOL  I was trying to find a pic of him, but the only thing I could
find was the slide show of his jumps, and he doesn't wear the glasses when
skiing (I sincerely hope he has contacts!!).  So, umm, yes, obsessed much,
Vicki?  Nooooo....

Vicki ;)




From s_ings at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 15 23:53:03 2002
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 18:53:03 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Email disasters was Re: *removes curtain*
In-Reply-To: <a4jcl8+gis0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20020215235303.76159.qmail@web14606.mail.yahoo.com>


--- pippin_999 <foxmoth at qnet.com> wrote:
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "Aberforth's Goat" 
> <Aberforths_Goat at Y...> wrote:
> > Welcome back Sinead!
> > 
> > Of course, since all the rest of us are perfect
> and have never
> > written a dumb email in our lives, we're terribly
> shocked. <g>
> > 
> > Forget it! (Though I, for one, won't forget that
> you had the
> > courage to come back.)
> 
> What he said.
> 
> And so this won't be a forbidden me too post...fess
> up everybody. 
> Tell us your best  dumb email story. Here's mine.
> 
> 
>   I am a member of the board of my synagogue. We
> were having 
> a disagreement with a prominent member, and we
> arranged a 
> meeting with him to talk things out. Prior to the
> meeting, another 
> board member emailed me to ask what I felt the
> problem was. I 
> emailed  back, expressing all my grievances in 
> polite but not 
> very diplomatic language. And he forwarded it to the
> guy! Who 
> stormed into the meeting with a copy in his hand.
> Aughh!
> 
> Pippin

OMG, mine is so similar to that! I used to be on the
board of a local festival. We were having problems
with the past chair of the board, so the current chair
and I sat and wrote an email, intending it to go into
the 'draft' folder and be re-done and sent later.
Let's face it, we were really bitching in the first
draft, and ended it with the words 'toe the line,
a*****e'. Needless to say, the send button got hit
instead of the save button. Yup, same result. He
brought it to the next board meeting!

Sheryll, no longer on that board, but for other
reasons :)

=====
"We need to be united and strong. We'll have losses and scares, sure. And you'll be there for each other, helping each other through the bad times."
 blpurdom - Harry Potter and the Psychic Serpent, Chapter 26

______________________________________________________________________ 
Web-hosting solutions for home and business! http://website.yahoo.ca



From kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk  Fri Feb 15 23:55:07 2002
From: kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk (Kathryn)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 23:55:07 -0000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] RE: Re: Olympics
References: <NFBBLPEOCLIKCDBACHIBOECFDAAA.morrigan@byz.org>
Message-ID: <001001c1b67c$35669600$f24786d9@monica>

What about the gold medalist in the slalom snowboarding thing (that being the technical term for it obviously) Had a liver transplant in the last eighteen months!
Seems to be the year for recoveries!

K
If an advisor says to me "My liege, he is but one man. What can one man possibly do?", I will reply "This." and kill the advisor.
http://minievil.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Morrigan //Vicki// 
  To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, February 15, 2002 11:43 PM
  Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] RE: Re: Olympics
  I was only half-watching the Olympics the other
  night at like 3 am (ahh, unemployment, you can keep freakish hours), and all
  of the sudden Bob Costas is holding up HPSS and going on about invisibility
  cloaks.  Then of course I HAD to pay attention!  Finally figured out that
  they were talking about the young guy who just won 2 golds in skiing after
  suffering a HEAD INJURY in January.  Yes, as in LAST month.  They showed
  some pics of him after the injury...ouch.  His name is Simon (Simi) Ammann
  and he's from Switzerland.  
  Vicki ;)


        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
              ADVERTISEMENT
             
       
       

  ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________

  Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the group's Admin Files!
  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/

  Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying!

  Is your message...
  An announcement of merchandise, news etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements.
  Movie-related? Send it to HPFGU-Movie.
  Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups.
  None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter.
  Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com

  Unsubscribing? Email HPFGU-OTChatter-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
  ____________________________________________________________


  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From s_ings at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 16 00:06:43 2002
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 19:06:43 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: *removes curtain*
In-Reply-To: <016a01c1b66d$5693c5a0$d37663d1@texas.net>
Message-ID: <20020216000643.22149.qmail@web14608.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Amanda <editor at texas.net> wrote:
> David said:
> 
> > I always struggle with the feeling, IRL as well as
> on and off-list, 
> > that people are only being polite and really they
> only tolerate (in 
> > the bad sense) me.
> 
> Me too. Don't feel alone.
> > 
> > I don't know what the answer is - extracting
> assurances from people 
> > that they like you works for a short time, but I
> rationalise it as 
> > politeness after a while.  Possibly we do need
> more impoliteness, 
> > after all, to earth it all in reality.
> 
> Woo-hoo! I have a function! I serve a purpose! 
> > 
> > David, who used to be envious of all these people
> who seem to be so 
> > at home in Chat, like Sinead
> 
> Some of us just (a) type fast, and (b) talk a lot.
> 
> --Amanda
> 
And some of us do both (a) and (b), occasionally at
the same time. :)

Sheryll

=====
"We need to be united and strong. We'll have losses and scares, sure. And you'll be there for each other, helping each other through the bad times."
 blpurdom - Harry Potter and the Psychic Serpent, Chapter 26

______________________________________________________________________ 
Web-hosting solutions for home and business! http://website.yahoo.ca



From witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 16 00:59:05 2002
From: witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com (Wanda Mallett)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 16:59:05 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Happy birthday, Inge!
In-Reply-To: <a4jku6+5i10@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20020216005905.20741.qmail@web13707.mail.yahoo.com>


 
All of us here in Revere, Massachusetts toast a big Birthday mug of butterbeer to you!
HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU! May you get plenty of Harry Potter stuff for presents!

Schnoogles,

Wanda the Witch of Revere, Massachusetts and Her Very Merry Band of Muggles 100% 



---------------------------------
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From moongirlk at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 16 05:18:39 2002
From: moongirlk at yahoo.com (moongirlk)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 05:18:39 -0000
Subject: Defending ice dancing, the ISU and judging
Message-ID: <a4kq3f+to5u@eGroups.com>

I so love whatever moderator came up with the idea for OT chatter - 
how else would we get to discuss figure skating on an HP list?  YAY!

I have to leap to the defense of Ice Dancing as somebody (I honestly 
meant to remember who so I could go back and find the quote) said 
they thought it ought to be dropped from the olympics due to the 
judging problems and that it's barely a sport, or something to that 
effect.

I used to feel the same way.  Until I saw Torvil and Dean do their 
stuff at Albertville - I think it was Albertville - is that when they 
came out of retirement or whatever they call it?  I don't remember 
much about T&D from before, other than a vague impression that they 
wore a lot of purple, but when I watched them there I finally 
appreciated having one branch of the sport that didn't revolve around 
jumps.  Dude - have you ever seen their "Bolero" number?  Hubba hubba 
wow!  Now they're not the sexiest looking couple of people in the 
world, and off ice they seemed very sort of mundane, but when they 
did Bolero... dear heavens - it was sex on ice!  I've never seen a 
program, and hardly ever even a love scene in a movie, that was more 
convincingly sexually charged, and yet at the same time it was 
*definitely* a sport.  I've decided that the thing with ice dancing 
is that without the jumps, you have to be really really *good* at all 
of the foundational parts of skating, and you have to do tons more 
*other* hard stuff.  When there are 7 or more jumps in a program, the 
skater spends a good chunk of time doing simple crossovers building 
up speed and setting up for the jumps, plus takes "breathers", as the 
commentators call them, where they do nothing in particular, except 
maybe waving their arms around dramatically (which drives me nuts).  
Without the jumps, they have to pack every moment of the program with 
intricate footwork and edge-work and... well, other nifty stuff I 
don't know the names of.  

That's not to take away from singles and regular pairs, just to say 
that ice dance is way cool too, and not usually as scary since people 
don't fall down as much, which I honestly think ought to be a 
prerequisite for being in the olympics - don't do a jump unless you 
can land it in practice more than occasionally.  Sorry, that's really 
a peeve from the last Olympics, not this one.  At least not yet.  

As for the judging thing... I honestly think the cheating has been 
going on for decades, and that it's a well-know if not well-
publicized fact to insiders.  Did anyone else get the feeling that 
the ISU president still isn't taking the problem seriously?  In fact 
I feel sorry for the French judge - she's the only one who's admitted 
to doing anything wrong, but I'd pool my last galleon with Fred and 
George to bet that there are several others who are at least as 
guilty.  Seems like they just want to scapegoat her and sweep it all 
under the rug, but clearly the implication is that she was supposed 
to vote for the Russians *in return* for something, so she can't 
possibly have been the only one involved.  I'd be digging up judges 
from Estonia, Morrocco, Uzbekistan, Jamaica... anywhere to find a few 
that didn't have any skaters in the top 10 or so and get them to do 
the judging, then as soon as the Olympics were over I'd wipe out the 
judging sytem completely and start from scratch.  Maybe then a skater 
with a unique artistic style could catch a break, too.  Seems like 
current judges still think if there's no opera music or melodrama 
it's not sufficiently artistic.  Oh, pardon my rant.  Ahem.  I'd 
better shut up now.

Except to say that I was actually pretty happy with the men's results 
too, and was very touched by both Yagudin's performance and his open 
weeping afterward.  He's grown on me a lot over the last year or so.

kimberly
done ranting about skating for now, but still hoping they'll put 
sweet Scotty in charge of the ISU someday.




From kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk  Sat Feb 16 05:31:43 2002
From: kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk (Kathryn)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 05:31:43 -0000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Defending ice dancing, the ISU and judging
References: <a4kq3f+to5u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000601c1b6ab$39055c40$432586d9@monica>

I think actually the poster you refer too was dissing figure skating generally (but I may be remembering that from another list I'm on where this is the topic of the moment too) IMO the camerawork doesn't always help matters focussing on closeups (above the waist) when the skaters aren't doing anything dramatic thus making most people think they're just coasting when they're often doing intricate footwork.
I notice (or rather Barry Davies did) that the only reason the French judge's marks stood out was the others voted along east/west lines (who says the cold war ended?), Russia, Azerbaijan, Ukraine and China voted for the Russians while UK, US, Canada and Germany I think, voted for the Canadians, with the French judge voting the "wrong" way. I think the implication was it was in return for someone (don't know who but presumably Russia) voting for the French couple in the Ice Dancing, which was why it was so important to sort it out beore the Ice Dancing started.
And yeah I remember a lot more falls than normal at Nagano too - the German commentator I heard was wondering if the ice was extra slippery !?
And Bolero was Sarajevo in '82 I think, Albertville was their comeback when they should have won gold with Let's Face the Music. (Jane Torville's one of the 'experts' on the coverage over here, which explains my detailed knowledge)

K
If an advisor says to me "My liege, he is but one man. What can one man possibly do?", I will reply "This." and kill the advisor.
http://minievil.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: moongirlk 
  To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2002 5:18 AM
  Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Defending ice dancing, the ISU and judging


  I so love whatever moderator came up with the idea for OT chatter - 
  how else would we get to discuss figure skating on an HP list?  YAY!

  I have to leap to the defense of Ice Dancing as somebody (I honestly 
  meant to remember who so I could go back and find the quote) said 
  they thought it ought to be dropped from the olympics due to the 
  judging problems and that it's barely a sport, or something to that 
  effect.

  I used to feel the same way.  Until I saw Torvil and Dean do their 
  stuff at Albertville - I think it was Albertville - is that when they 
  came out of retirement or whatever they call it?  I don't remember 
  much about T&D from before, other than a vague impression that they 
  wore a lot of purple, but when I watched them there I finally 
  appreciated having one branch of the sport that didn't revolve around 
  jumps.  Dude - have you ever seen their "Bolero" number?  Hubba hubba 
  wow!  Now they're not the sexiest looking couple of people in the 
  world, and off ice they seemed very sort of mundane, but when they 
  did Bolero... dear heavens - it was sex on ice!  I've never seen a 
  program, and hardly ever even a love scene in a movie, that was more 
  convincingly sexually charged, and yet at the same time it was 
  *definitely* a sport.  I've decided that the thing with ice dancing 
  is that without the jumps, you have to be really really *good* at all 
  of the foundational parts of skating, and you have to do tons more 
  *other* hard stuff.  When there are 7 or more jumps in a program, the 
  skater spends a good chunk of time doing simple crossovers building 
  up speed and setting up for the jumps, plus takes "breathers", as the 
  commentators call them, where they do nothing in particular, except 
  maybe waving their arms around dramatically (which drives me nuts).  
  Without the jumps, they have to pack every moment of the program with 
  intricate footwork and edge-work and... well, other nifty stuff I 
  don't know the names of.  

  That's not to take away from singles and regular pairs, just to say 
  that ice dance is way cool too, and not usually as scary since people 
  don't fall down as much, which I honestly think ought to be a 
  prerequisite for being in the olympics - don't do a jump unless you 
  can land it in practice more than occasionally.  Sorry, that's really 
  a peeve from the last Olympics, not this one.  At least not yet.  

  As for the judging thing... I honestly think the cheating has been 
  going on for decades, and that it's a well-know if not well-
  publicized fact to insiders.  Did anyone else get the feeling that 
  the ISU president still isn't taking the problem seriously?  In fact 
  I feel sorry for the French judge - she's the only one who's admitted 
  to doing anything wrong, but I'd pool my last galleon with Fred and 
  George to bet that there are several others who are at least as 
  guilty.  Seems like they just want to scapegoat her and sweep it all 
  under the rug, but clearly the implication is that she was supposed 
  to vote for the Russians *in return* for something, so she can't 
  possibly have been the only one involved.  I'd be digging up judges 
  from Estonia, Morrocco, Uzbekistan, Jamaica... anywhere to find a few 
  that didn't have any skaters in the top 10 or so and get them to do 
  the judging, then as soon as the Olympics were over I'd wipe out the 
  judging sytem completely and start from scratch.  Maybe then a skater 
  with a unique artistic style could catch a break, too.  Seems like 
  current judges still think if there's no opera music or melodrama 
  it's not sufficiently artistic.  Oh, pardon my rant.  Ahem.  I'd 
  better shut up now.

  Except to say that I was actually pretty happy with the men's results 
  too, and was very touched by both Yagudin's performance and his open 
  weeping afterward.  He's grown on me a lot over the last year or so.

  kimberly
  done ranting about skating for now, but still hoping they'll put 
  sweet Scotty in charge of the ISU someday.


        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
              ADVERTISEMENT
             
       
       

  ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________

  Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the group's Admin Files!
  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/

  Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying!

  Is your message...
  An announcement of merchandise, news etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements.
  Movie-related? Send it to HPFGU-Movie.
  Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups.
  None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter.
  Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com

  Unsubscribing? Email HPFGU-OTChatter-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
  ____________________________________________________________


  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Feb 16 06:59:32 2002
From: catlady at wicca.net (catlady_de_los_angeles)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 06:59:32 -0000
Subject: stuff in digest #533 (553?)
In-Reply-To: <20020213041557.7851.qmail@web20405.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <a4l00k+mfce@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., Elizabeth Sager <dizzylizzy182 at y...> 
wrote a very cool post beginning:

> I went and read that essay, or website, or whatever
> you want to call it.

But went and left the Whole Digest dangling under it!

> --- HPFGU-OTChatter at y... wrote:
> >
> ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________

> > There are 25 messages in this issue.
> > 
> > Topics in this digest:
> > 
> >       1. going to go pout now....
> >            From: "Rachel Bray" <bray.262 at o...>
> >       2. Re: Facing The Challenge Web Site
> >            From: John Walton <john at w...>
> >       3. Re: Facing The Challenge Web Site
> >            From: "koinonia02"





From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Sat Feb 16 08:58:19 2002
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catorman)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 08:58:19 -0000
Subject: Defending ice dancing, the ISU and judging
In-Reply-To: <a4kq3f+to5u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a4l6vb+qbon@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "moongirlk" <moongirlk at y...> wrote:
> I so love whatever moderator came up with the idea for OT chatter - 
> how else would we get to discuss figure skating on an HP list?  YAY!
> 
> I have to leap to the defense of Ice Dancing as somebody (I 
honestly 
> meant to remember who so I could go back and find the quote) said 
> they thought it ought to be dropped from the olympics due to the 
> judging problems and that it's barely a sport, or something to that 
> effect.
> 
> I used to feel the same way.  Until I saw Torvil and Dean do their 
> stuff at Albertville - I think it was Albertville - is that when 
they 
> came out of retirement or whatever they call it?  I don't remember 
> much about T&D from before, other than a vague impression that they 
> wore a lot of purple, but when I watched them there I finally 
> appreciated having one branch of the sport that didn't revolve 
around 
> jumps.  Dude - have you ever seen their "Bolero" number?  Hubba 
hubba 
> wow!  Now they're not the sexiest looking couple of people in the 
> world, and off ice they seemed very sort of mundane, but when they 
> did Bolero... dear heavens - it was sex on ice!  I've never seen a 
> program, and hardly ever even a love scene in a movie, that was 
more 
> convincingly sexually charged, and yet at the same time it was 
> *definitely* a sport.  

I so agree with this!  All this ice dancing talk has brought back 
very bitter-sweet memories for me of watching Torville and 
Dean's "Lets Face the Music and Dance" routine, which I loved, and I 
was absolutely devasted when they didn't win the gold that year.  I 
watched it with friends and all of us were in floods of tears.  It 
has to be the only time ever I have been interested in the Olympics.

Catherine




From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Feb 16 10:52:16 2002
From: catlady at wicca.net (catlady_de_los_angeles)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 10:52:16 -0000
Subject: Personal Greetings / Fanfic / Resemblance to Character / LOL
Message-ID: <a4ldl0+lg89@eGroups.com>

GREETINGS Section.
**********************
Tabouli wrote:
> I also have a vague feeling that it might be iffy professionally if
> my clients and competitors in cross-cultural training (not to 
> mention family, friends, dodgy exes...) could nip onto the Net, 
> join HPFGU, and link me to every rant and opinion I've expressed 

I fantasize that you could fob off clients and colleague/competitors, 
but not family, by explaining that you are doing participant-observer 
anthropological research on us. (I read all of your post on Eurasian 
appearances and all of your post in the Mafalda thread, but fear of 
being politically incorrect keeps me from replying.)

Jamieson! Welcome back!

Happy Birthday to Lena!

Happy Birthday to Inge (the Norwegian Ridgeback dragon lady)!

Happy Valentine's Day (that was) to Dinah the poet, Rachel dressed in 
black, and everyone. I love Valentine's Day because of the lace and 
chocolate, even in years when I only look at the lace in stores and 
only have chocolate that I bought myself. This year I was given much 
candy and TWO plushies and I gave very small but expensive boxes of 
Godiva to the females on my team at work... I didn't mean to be 
sexist, but Ted and Amjad aren't that much into candy... 

Poor Sinead, how terrible to have a fight with your boyfriend on 
Valentine's Day, I hope everything works out okay for you. <> I 
hereby declare that you posted the Mafalda stuff on purpose to get 
everyone to praise our Magical Mods, List Elves, Poltergeists, and 
list rules (and it worked).

ABOUT FANFIC Section.
****************************
Jo Serenadust wrote:
> Personally, I don't read the stuff anymore since it was all so 
depressing, angsty, and not at all in the spirit of JKR.

I have not found all HP fanfic to be depressing or angsty, altho' 
some people LIKE angst. I haven't read ENOUGH fanfic to say MOST HP 
fanfic is not depressing or angsty, but most of what I read is not.

RESEMBLANCE TO A HP CHARACTER Section.
*****************************************
Vanessa Heggie wrote:
> a tall guy dressed in a long black overcoat came up and stood next 
to me. He leaned down to the receptionist, and hissed through his 
LONG GREASY BLACK HAIR "The name's....Snape" 

If he was named S. Snape before the books/movie and didn't like 
people joking on it, he would CUT the damn hair and maybe even buy a 
BROWN coat.

Amy Z wrote:
> "Lupin is an angel sent from heaven and his very flaws are evidence 
of his perfection" is an undebatable statement

Catlady smiles at dear sweet Amy.

SEX AND HUMOR Section.
****************************** 
Drieux wrote:
> Flexibility = life; rigidity = death.

Rigidity. Equals death. For some reason *snerk* this reminds me of 
the man in APA-Tarot who insisted that the/a phallus symbolises death.

> ...about to have his grad students do something *useful* and 
> polish the Morgan.... 

Oh, there's an M in that...

Amanda wrote, of Mafalda's "John on his apparent uncontrollable need 
to viputerate a member"

> This sounds vagely sexy. 

I can pun on 'Morgan' and 'member', but not on 'vage'.

> And I like this word "viputerate."

It must be based on a portmanteau of viper and computer.

Cassie wrote, on the same thread, an essay ending 

> *bursts into tears of vexed ire* 
> Excuse me, I have to go viputerate someone now.

ROTFLMAO. What KCawte said about the coffee!





From sinead at bu.edu  Sat Feb 16 17:58:38 2002
From: sinead at bu.edu (sineadsiobhan)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 17:58:38 -0000
Subject: Goodbye all
Message-ID: <a4m6ke+9ab5@eGroups.com>

Hi all, 

I've just been asked to leave the group and HPFGU in general in the 
wake of Mafalda. So on this note, I'll be leaving OT-Chatter, and hope 
to talk to you guys in the near future. 

I'm sorry this has happened to me and I really sincerely regret it. 
I've really enjoyed the time here, meeting my now fianc? in the 
chatroom, and I've met the nicest people offlist. 

Good bye,

Sinead 

HPFGU member: 16 October 2000- 16 February 2002





From landers at email.unc.edu  Sat Feb 16 19:20:52 2002
From: landers at email.unc.edu (Betty)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 14:20:52 -0500
Subject: A couple of things
Message-ID: <3C6EB114.BB9A67E0@email.unc.edu>

Hello all!  I'm Betty, a long-time member, seldomly a speaker.  I leave
the speculation and theories up to others usually, and leave things to
the author to work out.  I've attached myself to no theories as a
result, nor have I attached myself to any fanfic characters.  Anyway,
that's not the point of this post.
1. Today's my birthday.  22.
2.  Thank my uncle for getting me into Harry Potter exactly two years
ago today.  He bought me Sorcerer's Stone on audio cassette and within
two months, I had CoS and PoA, and was anxiously awaiting GoF.  I was
hooked on HP after the first chapter, believe it or not.
Well, off to read Sorcerer's Stone in tribute to my two-year anniversary
of being in love with the HP series.
-- 
Now, you two--this year, you behave yourselves.  If I get one more owl
telling me you've--you've blown up a toilet or--"
"Blown up a toilet?  We've never blown up a toilet.
"Great idea, though, Thanks, mom."        
Molly, Fred and George Weasley: Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone,
chapter 6



From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Sat Feb 16 19:52:33 2002
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (kelleyelf)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 19:52:33 -0000
Subject: Happy Birthday, Betty!
Message-ID: <a4mda1+q693@eGroups.com>

Betty wrote:

>1. Today's my birthday. 22.>>>

Hi Betty, happy birthday!  Have 22 chocolate frogs and follow it with 
loads of butterbeer!  (I have a hose and funnel around here 
somewhere...) :-D

>2. Thank my uncle for getting me into Harry Potter exactly two years
ago today. He bought me Sorcerer's Stone on audio cassette and within
two months, I had CoS and PoA, and was anxiously awaiting GoF.>>>

Oh, what a great gift.  He must be a fan as well, yes?

>I was hooked on HP after the first chapter, believe it or not.>>>

Me too!  

>Well, off to read Sorcerer's Stone in tribute to my two-year 
anniversary of being in love with the HP series.>>>

Sounds like a fantastic way to celebrate to me.  ;-)  Have a terrific 
day!

Kelley






From witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 16 20:15:19 2002
From: witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com (Wanda Mallett)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 12:15:19 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Happy Birthday, Betty!
In-Reply-To: <a4mda1+q693@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20020216201519.68972.qmail@web13709.mail.yahoo.com>


 
  Happy Birthday, Betty!  Enjoy all that Harry Potter goodies! Plenty of Butterbeer and anything else you want on this special day!
Oh, to be 22 again, but I'm still a kid at heart, hope you stay young at heart too!
Happy Birthday Big Girl of 22!
Schnoogles,
Wanda the Witch of Revere,Masachusetts and Her Very Merry Band of Muggles 100%



---------------------------------
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From moongirlk at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 16 20:34:21 2002
From: moongirlk at yahoo.com (moongirlk)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 20:34:21 -0000
Subject: Defending ice dancing, the ISU and judging
In-Reply-To: <000601c1b6ab$39055c40$432586d9@monica>
Message-ID: <a4mfod+qr9i@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "Kathryn" <kcawte at k...> wrote:
> IMO the camerawork doesn't always help matters focussing on 
closeups (above the waist) when the skaters aren't doing anything 
dramatic thus making most people think they're just coasting when 
they're often doing intricate footwork.

I agree with that, but lots of (especially singles) skaters don't pay 
much attention to footwork, and especially not intricate footwork.  
At least not until they go pro.  For example Ilya Kulik is a far more 
enjoyable skater to watch (IMO) now that he's gone pro (and has 
Christopher Dean doing some choreography for him!).  

> I notice (or rather Barry Davies did) that the only reason the 
>French judge's marks stood out was the others voted along east/west 
>lines (who says the cold war ended?), Russia, Azerbaijan, Ukraine 
>and China voted for the Russians while UK, US, Canada and Germany I 
>think, voted for the Canadians, with the French judge voting 
>the "wrong" way. I think the implication was it was in return for 
>someone (don't know who but presumably Russia) voting for the French 
>couple in the Ice Dancing, which was why it was so important to sort 
>it out beore the Ice Dancing started.

I hadn't noticed how strictly they had fallen along those lines, but 
I did think it was about Anassina and Peiserat.  Which is silly 
because they are awesome skaters and could earn the scores all on 
their own, just like the Russian pair could have if they hadn't been 
having a bad night.  I still think, though, that the ISU president 
seemed really dismissive of the whole thing, and probably won't go 
too far toward fixing the underlying problem unless the media/public 
make him.

> And yeah I remember a lot more falls than normal at Nagano too - 
the German commentator I heard was wondering if the ice was extra 
slippery !?

Extra slippery ice - that's priceless!

> And Bolero was Sarajevo in '82 I think, Albertville was their 
comeback when they should have won gold with Let's Face the Music. 

I totally agree - they should've won and the rule about the lifts was 
enforced rather stupidly (and while I'm at it Surya Bonaly should be 
allowed to do the backflip in competition since she can land it on 
one foot, so there!).  It was during the exhibition that they did 
Bolero - as a tribute to the people of Sarajevo.  I was too young to 
have the attention span for the Sarajevo olympics, so that was the 
first time I'd seen them do Bolero.  Yowza!

kimberly





From kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk  Sat Feb 16 20:44:07 2002
From: kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk (Kathryn)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 20:44:07 -0000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Defending ice dancing, the ISU and judging
References: <a4mfod+qr9i@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000f01c1b72a$af430900$f62486d9@monica>

Ahh, I was 6 when they did Bolero the first time but I do vaguely remember it. I'd forgotton they did in the gala, I seem to remember the gala was the first time one of the men did a quad at a major event. And since I like the mens event best that probably was the thing that stood out for me. I like the three jump combinations some of them have started to do now.
Oh and I love the French ice Dance couple, can't wait to see their free programme.

K
If an advisor says to me "My liege, he is but one man. What can one man possibly do?", I will reply "This." and kill the advisor.
http://minievil.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: moongirlk 
  To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2002 8:34 PM
  Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Defending ice dancing, the ISU and judging

  > And Bolero was Sarajevo in '82 I think, Albertville was their 
  comeback when they should have won gold with Let's Face the Music. 

  I totally agree - they should've won and the rule about the lifts was 
  enforced rather stupidly (and while I'm at it Surya Bonaly should be 
  allowed to do the backflip in competition since she can land it on 
  one foot, so there!).  It was during the exhibition that they did 
  Bolero - as a tribute to the people of Sarajevo.  I was too young to 
  have the attention span for the Sarajevo olympics, so that was the 
  first time I'd seen them do Bolero.  Yowza!

  kimberly



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com  Sat Feb 16 21:29:56 2002
From: SKTHOMPSON_1 at msn.com (kelleyelf)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 21:29:56 -0000
Subject: Point of clarification re "Goodbye all"
Message-ID: <a4mj0k+3ao9@eGroups.com>

Sinead has most assuredly not been asked in any way to leave any of 
the HPfGUs groups by any member of the Moderator Team.  We regret 
that she has decided to remove herself from the groups.

Kelley, for the Moderator Team 




From saitaina at wizzards.net  Sat Feb 16 21:29:27 2002
From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 13:29:27 -0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Point of clarification re "Goodbye all"
References: <a4mj0k+3ao9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <006701c1b731$042fb340$774e28d1@saitaina>

I was wondering about that because it seemed a bit...abrupt.  Many of us
have made mistakes in our lives and our time here and while I don't like
what she did that doesn't in any way change how I feel about her as a
friend.

I had always thought the moderators were an understanding and forgiving
bunch but for a few seconds there while reading Sinead's email I was worried
I was wrong, glad to know I'm not.


Saitaina
*****
Also Doing: Eating/role-playing
Last Movie Seen: Harry Potter and the Sorcer's Stone (3rd time)
Last TV Show Seen: "Olympics"
Current Book-"The Lunatic Cafe"




From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Sat Feb 16 23:05:41 2002
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 23:05:41 -0000
Subject: Long life and calculus
In-Reply-To: <20020214070934.91890.qmail@web9503.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <a4mok5+tbmi@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., Andrew MacIan <andrew_macian at y...> wrote:
> 
> Reflecting that, after having flatlined in Nam, things
> have been easy by comparison;
> 
> Reflecting that, after having given a lecture on
> calculus that is so watered down that my old student
> house's refectory soup would resemble track lube by
> comaprison, that my non-majors students might just be
> on the edge of grasping a couple of things;
> 
> Reflecting that, on balance, I really don't understand
> the point of your question.
> 
Point? This is OT-Chatter!

I just thought that there might be an interesting story behind 
the 'surprisingly long life'.

I am an old cynic, so I also think that when people dangle phrases 
like that, they are itching to give the story behind them.

I am an obliging wide-eyed person who is curious in every sense of 
the word, so I like to give people the satisfaction.

But, if your life is in fact boring, please accept my apologies for 
maligning it.

David

PS I remember that 'given epsilon > 0, we can find a delta > 0 such 
that...' stuff too.  I even think it's interesting.




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Sun Feb 17 00:47:27 2002
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (lupinesque)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 00:47:27 -0000
Subject: Have a magical day, Betty!
In-Reply-To: <3C6EB114.BB9A67E0@email.unc.edu>
Message-ID: <a4muiv+l388@eGroups.com>

. . . both for your birthday and your HP-anniversary!  I hope it's 
been a lovely day for my sister collector of funny HP quotes.

Cheers,
Amy




From alyeskakc at netzero.net  Sun Feb 17 00:57:23 2002
From: alyeskakc at netzero.net (alyeskakc)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 00:57:23 -0000
Subject: Happy birthday
In-Reply-To: <20020216005905.20741.qmail@web13707.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <a4mv5j+r8mn@eGroups.com>

Happy Birthday Betty!

 and Happy Belated Birthday Inge!

I hope you guys have a wonderful day and get all that you wish for. 
Here's a mug of butterbeer raised in your honor.

Skol.


Cheers,

 Kristin




From cindysphynx at home.com  Sun Feb 17 04:21:18 2002
From: cindysphynx at home.com (cindysphynx)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 04:21:18 -0000
Subject: Defending ice dancing, the ISU and judging
In-Reply-To: <a4kq3f+to5u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a4nb3u+gsml@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "moongirlk" <moongirlk at y...> wrote:

> I have to leap to the defense of Ice Dancing as somebody (I 
honestly 
> meant to remember who so I could go back and find the quote) said 
> they thought it ought to be dropped from the olympics due to the 
> judging problems and that it's barely a sport, or something to that 
> effect.

That was me.  Remember now, I'm a longtime fan of figure skating, and 
I do think that singles and pairs are wonderful sports.  I also think 
early ice dancing was great, and I remember Torvil and Dean quite 
fondly.  

But something has changed in ice dancing.  It started the year that 
Torvil and Dean made their come-back and won only the bronze medal in 
the Olympics for reasons that were never clear to me.  Ever since, 
the fix has been in, IMHO.  In singles and pairs, anyone with a 
decent understanding of the sport could watch 10 routines and rank 
them, and most people would probably agree on the rankings.  In ice 
dancing, it is anyone's guess, in my opinion.  They are all good, the 
dancers rarely make a mistake, so what is there to differentiate 
them?  Not a whole lot.  And nothing is more of a snooze than the 
compulsory dance, where couple after couple after couple after couple 
dance the same darn routine to the same music.  Grrr!

The bottom line for me is that you have to have risk in a sport.  Not 
risk that someone will be hurt or killed.  Just risk that something 
could go wrong.  Risk is there in all of the other judged sports:  
diving, gymnastics, aerial skiing.  That's where the suspense comes 
from for me.  Ice dancers don't fall or even make many mistakes 
(except for that one couple who fell in the long program at worlds 
and *won anyway*).

Now that judging corruption is out in the open, it does give me pause 
about other results over the years.  I wonder how Nancy Kerrigan is 
feeling these days?

Actually, I'm sufficiently cranky tonight that I'd like to show the 
door to several other Olympic sports.  Synchronized swimming.  
Rhythym gymnastics.  Ballroom dancing (did they ever allow this 
in?).  Outta here!

Moongirl again:

> Without the jumps, [ice dancers] have to pack every moment of the 
program with 
> intricate footwork and edge-work and... well, other nifty stuff I 
> don't know the names of.  

Oh, this is a very good point.  I think [and hope] we are seeing the 
beginning of the end of scoring that allows singles skaters to glide 
half-way across the rink and do a jump, then glide back to the other 
end and do a jump.  They've already changed the short program 
requirements so that you have to do a jump coming out of steps.  I'd 
like to see them further change the scoring so that any jump coming 
out of steps or a spread-eagle or something attractive gets extra 
points for difficulty.  That would go a long way toward improving 
artistry in singles skating, anyway.

Moongirl again:

>I'd be digging up judges 
> from Estonia, Morrocco, Uzbekistan, Jamaica... anywhere to find a 
few 
> that didn't have any skaters in the top 10 or so and get them to do 
> the judging, then as soon as the Olympics were over I'd wipe out 
the 
> judging sytem completely and start from scratch.  

I've heard that a potential reform is that the ISU ought to have paid 
judges on staff.  Not judges from particular countries; judges who 
are well-compensated to judge figure skating.  In American football, 
if the referee throws a flag on a team, no one thinks "Oh, he only 
threw that flag because he wants the Rams to win."  That's because 
referees work for the league and are supervised and disciplined -- 
unlike figure skating judges.

Moongirl again:

> done ranting about skating for now, but still hoping they'll put 
> sweet Scotty in charge of the ISU someday.

Yes, Scott Hamilton and Sandra Bezick are doing a great job.  I'm so 
used to Dick Button and Peggy Flemming that I figured they are the 
only ones who know what they're doing in the booth.  Apparently not.

Cindy (loving her once-every-four-years Winter Olympics fix)




From andrew_macian at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 17 05:37:14 2002
From: andrew_macian at yahoo.com (Andrew MacIan)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 21:37:14 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Defending ice dancing, the ISU and judging
In-Reply-To: <a4nb3u+gsml@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20020217053714.50843.qmail@web9502.mail.yahoo.com>

Greetings from Andrew!

When a sport isn't....
--- cindysphynx <cindysphynx at home.com> wrote:
{snip}

> The bottom line for me is that you have to have risk
> in a sport.  Not 
> risk that someone will be hurt or killed.  Just risk
> that something 
> could go wrong.  Risk is there in all of the other
> judged sports:  
> diving, gymnastics, aerial skiing.  That's where the
> suspense comes 
> from for me.  Ice dancers don't fall or even make
> many mistakes 
> (except for that one couple who fell in the long
> program at worlds 
> and *won anyway*).

Let me take a step or six back and offer a rather
radical proposal:  Any 'sport' that requires external
judging, where that judging awards/affects points
should NOT be an Olympic sport.  That they are
athletic in nature is a given.  But when the
subjective nature of the judging is integral to the
placements of the finishers, then the contest is not
only between the open competitors but also
amongst/between the judges...and the nations the
judges really represent.

Let's take the sports I played way back when, in my
own university days.  I fenced and lifted weights.  In
both sports, points are scored, and in both there is
an element of danger. But in neither one is there
*interactive* judging of how well the competitors'
form held, or how perfectly the point was scored. 
True, in both there is an element of judging of
legality (that is, in the case of lifting, whether or
not the lift was legally completed), but that judging
is binary:  You locked the lift, or scored the
hit...or you didn't.

> 
> Now that judging corruption is out in the open, it
> does give me pause 
> about other results over the years.  I wonder how
> Nancy Kerrigan is 
> feeling these days?
> 

Does the term 'seriously pissed off' mean anything to
you?

> Actually, I'm sufficiently cranky tonight that I'd
> like to show the 
> door to several other Olympic sports.  Synchronized
> swimming.  
> Rhythym gymnastics.  Ballroom dancing (did they ever
> allow this 
> in?).  Outta here!

Concur.  Also, sadly, dressage competition and the
dressage portion of three-day, and most forms of
gymnastics and diving would now be history as well.

Ah, well...nice to think of restoring something like
the original purity of the Games, wasn't it?

Cheers,

Drieux


=====
ICQ # 76184391

'Each game of chess means there's one less
      Variation left to be played;
 Each day got through means one or two less
      Mistakes remain to be made.'
      --'Chess' by Sir Tim Rice

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games
http://sports.yahoo.com



From jenP_97 at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 17 06:26:06 2002
From: jenP_97 at yahoo.com (jenP_97)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 06:26:06 -0000
Subject: The olympics without the judging...
In-Reply-To: <20020217053714.50843.qmail@web9502.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <a4nidu+60a7@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., Andrew MacIan <andrew_macian at y...> 
wrote:

> Let me take a step or six back and offer a rather
> radical proposal:  Any 'sport' that requires external
> judging, where that judging awards/affects points
> should NOT be an Olympic sport.  That they are
> athletic in nature is a given.  But when the
> subjective nature of the judging is integral to the
> placements of the finishers, then the contest is not
> only between the open competitors but also
> amongst/between the judges...and the nations the
> judges really represent.


Nonono... this isn't radical.  Okay, perhaps to the "sporting 
establishment" (whatever that may be), it is... but most of the 
olympics fans I know (some of whom are athletic themselves)
would LOVE for this to be the ruling consideration for the olympic 
athletic events.  My husband, for example, is constantly telling 
me while watching a 'race' of some kind - "now THIS is nice, 
straightforward competition.  *I* can figure out who wins!"  
Perhaps that should be the rule.  If the public watching the 
competition cannot CLEARLY tell who is the winner of a competition 
without some formal education in the sport, then it can't be in 
the olympics.  After all, isn't this an *amateur* (sp??) 
competition?  Granted, amateur doesn't mean "beginner" or "easy", 
but IMO, it should at least be somewhat accessible to spectators, 
no?

Of course, if not for the olympics, would figure skating (which I 
love to watch, by the way) be as popular as it is?  And of course, 
there is the corollary (sp?) question: If not for figure skating, 
would the olympics be as popular as they are?

Jen (who loves figure skating, but wouldn't be able to judge it 
at all... unless it had rules like "the pair/skater with the most 
jumps and fewest falls wins")

PS.  Does anyone else get heart palpitations watching short-track 
speed skating?  I SWEAR, someone's gonna get KILLED doing that!! 

:)




From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Sun Feb 17 09:36:01 2002
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naamagatus)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 09:36:01 -0000
Subject: Being boring - or insecure? (was Re: *removes curtain*)
In-Reply-To: <016a01c1b66d$5693c5a0$d37663d1@texas.net>
Message-ID: <a4nti1+5mqi@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "Amanda" <editor at t...> wrote:
> David said:
> 
> > I always struggle with the feeling, IRL as well as on and off-
list, 
> > that people are only being polite and really they only tolerate 
(in 
> > the bad sense) me.
> 
> Me too. Don't feel alone.
> > 
> > I don't know what the answer is - extracting assurances from 
people 
> > that they like you works for a short time, but I rationalise it 
as 
> > politeness after a while.  Possibly we do need more impoliteness, 
> > after all, to earth it all in reality.
> 
> Woo-hoo! I have a function! I serve a purpose! 
> > 
> > David, who used to be envious of all these people who seem to be 
so 
> > at home in Chat, like Sinead
> 

Dave, Amanda - are you kidding me?! It's me who's boring and barely 
tolerated (not to mention practically illiterate <wink at Mahoney>). 

Naama, who never does know whether she's boring or insecure (probably 
a bit of both)






From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sun Feb 17 10:19:30 2002
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 10:19:30 -0000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Being boring - or insecure? (was Re: *removes curtain*)
References: <a4nti1+5mqi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <01be01c1b79c$96eed420$633570c2@c5s910j>

Following on from David's comments, Naama said:

<< Dave, Amanda - are you kidding me?! It's me who's boring and barely
tolerated (not to mention practically illiterate <wink at Mahoney>). >>

I've spoken in meetings where people have gone to sleep right under my nose.
That's how interesting I am.   I think it's my speaking voice, which is not
only very soft, but has all the tonal variety of a gently humming fridge.

Of course, that's when I'm at work droning on about something that, frankly,
makes *me* want to close my eyes and escape into daydreams.  If I'm being
passionate about something (it can happen), I can usually manage to keep my
companions in the land of the living.

David is far from boring, by the way.  I call him 'Interesting' Dave.

Neil/Flying Ford Anglia






From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Sun Feb 17 10:51:08 2002
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 10:51:08 -0000
Subject: Ice skating and other extreme sports (was Re: Defending ice dancing, the ISU and judging)
References: <a4nb3u+gsml@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <01d701c1b7a1$1633dd80$633570c2@c5s910j>

Cindy revealed a keen and informed interest in ice skating and then decided:

<< Actually, I'm sufficiently cranky tonight that I'd like to show the door
to several other Olympic sports.  Synchronized swimming.  Rhythym
gymnastics.  Ballroom dancing (did they ever allow this in?).  Outta here!
>>

I love the ice skating events too.  I like the Men's event best, for the
sheer thrill of the athletics, although I get annoyed if they wear trousers
and shoes of the same colour.  You know, those package-revealing stirrup
pants that hook around the skates?   Gah!  But don't get me talking about
the poor dress sense of male ice skaters...

I guess the main criteria for inclusion of a sport in the Olympics are
athleticism and control, but sports such as rhythmic gymnastics and
synchronised swimming also include that rather vague thing, "artistic
impression".  That's such a subjective thing, and I've noticed that those
who get the higher technical scores always seem to get the higher artistic
scores, as if the judges begin from a higher baseline.  Do they?  In my
opinion, it's quite possible for someone to create a wonderful artistic
impression without being flawless technically.  It seems unfair.

As someone who attended dancing school (only an amateur thing, during
childhood... don't get excited), I can assure you that ballroom dancing
requires as much athletic prowess and control as, say fencing.  Rhythmic
gymnastics and synchronised swimming, on the other hand, do seem rather
ludicrously contrived.  Who decided that prannying around with a ribbon
could be honed into a competitive sport?  Why do synchonised swimmers have
to do a 'Stepford Wives' cheerleading routine before they jump in the pool?
Why can't they just jump in and get on with the routine?

I don't expect you to answer these questions.  I've been drinking too much
coffee again.

Neil/Flying Ford Anglia, who expects to be glomped by someone wearing a nose
peg.






From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Sun Feb 17 11:23:44 2002
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catorman)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 11:23:44 -0000
Subject: Being boring/people at parties.
In-Reply-To: <01be01c1b79c$96eed420$633570c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <a4o3s0+34f4@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "Neil Ward" <neilward at d...> wrote:
> Following on from David's comments, Naama said:
> 
> << Dave, Amanda - are you kidding me?! It's me who's boring and 
barely
> tolerated (not to mention practically illiterate <wink at 
Mahoney>). >>
> 
> I've spoken in meetings where people have gone to sleep right under 
my nose.
> That's how interesting I am.   I think it's my speaking voice, 
which is not
> only very soft, but has all the tonal variety of a gently humming 
fridge.
> 
> Of course, that's when I'm at work droning on about something that, 
frankly,
> makes *me* want to close my eyes and escape into daydreams.  If I'm 
being
> passionate about something (it can happen), I can usually manage to 
keep my
> companions in the land of the living.
> 
> David is far from boring, by the way.  I call him 'Interesting' 
Dave.
> 
> Neil/Flying Ford Anglia

I agree, with this about David, and would also like to add that Neil 
himself is far from boring.  As someone who has been trapped in a car 
with Neil for a number of hours (driving to and from Oxford last 
summer)  I can assure everyone that I did not fall asleep at the 
wheel, and that Neil kept me entertained for the duration of the 
journey!

Talking of boredom - I went to a party last night - a friend's 30th 
birthday.  I got stuck talking to this guy, who was one of the rudest 
people I've ever come across at a social gathering.  He'd already 
insulted me about what I was doing with my life, about Mickey (my 
husband), told me that I was obviously ignorant about Scandinavia if 
I had anything nice to say about Swedish people because nice Swedish 
people don't exist (?!) and  I was getting to the end of my tether 
with him when he asked me what degree I did at University.  Last 
straw -  when I told him that I did Joint Honours English and 
History - said:

"Oh, I see, you're one of those sad intellectually challenged people 
who couldn't cope with a real degree."

Me:  *laughs feebly* assuming he was joking.

Him:  I'm serious.  People only do joint degrees if they can't hack 
single honours.  I'm surprised you could cope with Law.

Me:  *splutter* (by this time feeling very defensive) What?  That's a 
bit uncalled for.

Him: Yeah, I know, probably a bit of an aggressive statement, but 
true.

This from someone I had known for about 15 minutes.  I then started 
coughing ('flu remnants) and he went into a rant about how if I was 
getting over the 'flu how selfish it was of me to turn up at a party, 
where I could spread germs and infect a number of people - he 
obviously didn't understand about when people are infectious, which 
was fine by me because it meant that he went off to be rude to 
someone else, and a very nice woman from Milan came to talk to me 
instead.

I just don't understand why someone, at a social gathering, would be 
so rude and obnoxious with someone he'd just met.  He talked to 
Mickey for a while as well, who had the same problem with him, and 
when I asked Judith (the hostess) about him, she said that he was 
always like that.  My reaction was, well then, why is he your friend, 
and why did you invite him to your party, considering he's absolutely 
no social skills whatsoever, and thinks that it is clever to insult 
as many people as possible in the room.  I didn't say that to her 
obviously, although I probably will next time I see her.

Oh well, maybe he just didn't like my face.

Catherine




From michelleapostolides at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Feb 17 12:28:28 2002
From: michelleapostolides at yahoo.co.uk (Michelle Apostolides)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 12:28:28 -0000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Being boring/people at parties.
References: <a4o3s0+34f4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000c01c1b7ae$9aa0b360$b2f0883e@Michelle>

I agree, with this about David, and would also like to add that Neil 
himself is far from boring.  As someone who has been trapped in a car 
with Neil for a number of hours (driving to and from Oxford last 
summer)  I can assure everyone that I did not fall asleep at the 
wheel, and that Neil kept me entertained for the duration of the 
journey!

I would also like to add to Catherine's comments about Neil. He is one of the nicest, funniest and most good humoured people I have met and I always look forward to seeing him at our meet ups.  The best thing about Neil is watching his facial expressions as he tells stories. He knows how much we all love him. 

Talking of boredom - I went to a party last night - a friend's 30th 
birthday.

I snipped all the appalling comments this person made at the party. I cannot believe any person could be so unrelentngly rude to someone he has never met before ! 

It just goes to show that not everyone is easy to get on with. 
Life is strange.......

Michelle


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From damsel_since_ten at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 17 13:46:56 2002
From: damsel_since_ten at yahoo.com (dismal_sentence)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 13:46:56 -0000
Subject: Being boring - or insecure? (was Re: *removes curtain*)
In-Reply-To: <01be01c1b79c$96eed420$633570c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <a4oc8g+siqi@eGroups.com>

Wait a second Neil!

> I've spoken in meetings where people have gone to sleep right under my nose.
> That's how interesting I am.   I think it's my speaking voice, which is not
> only very soft, but has all the tonal variety of a gently humming fridge.

Not at the meet last March, I was up 24 hours straight and couldn't 
help falling asleep, even after the fourth cup of mocha java. I'm 
pretty sure the only things keeping me awake was my low cut shirt and 
the freezing as hell rain. Or the chocolate frogs you gave me... 

dismal_sentence (if you rearrange the letters, it's my real name... I'm 
back... temporarily... and feeling like I'm in a dismal sentence at the 
moment)





From s_ings at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 17 13:55:50 2002
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 08:55:50 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Being boring/people at parties.
In-Reply-To: <000c01c1b7ae$9aa0b360$b2f0883e@Michelle>
Message-ID: <20020217135550.50759.qmail@web14608.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Michelle Apostolides
<michelleapostolides at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Catherine wrote:
> > I agree, with this about David, and would also
like
> > to add that Neil himself is far from boring. As
someone who has been trapped in a car with Neil for a
> > number of hours (driving to and from Oxford last 
> > summer)  I can assure everyone that I did not fall
> > asleep at the wheel, and that Neil kept me
entertained for the duration of the journey!
> 
> I would also like to add to Catherine's comments
> about Neil. He is one of the nicest, funniest and
> most good humoured people I have met and I always
> look forward to seeing him at our meet ups.  The
> best thing about Neil is watching his facial
> expressions as he tells stories. He knows how much
> we all love him. 

Oh, oh, oh! *waves hand in air*

I want to add to this as well. Neil is definitely not
boring. I certainly didn't fall asleep on him when he
was here for dinner. Though I can't be sure that
Amanda and I didn't put him to sleep when we were all
on the phone. I know we didn't let him get a word in
edgewise and, as I was on the downstairs phone, I
can't be sure he wasn't sitting upstairs dozing
through the conversation.

Sheryll, watching our predicted 5 cm of snow rapidly
becoming at least twice that amount

=====
"We need to be united and strong. We'll have losses and scares, sure. And you'll be there for each other, helping each other through the bad times."
 blpurdom - Harry Potter and the Psychic Serpent, Chapter 26

______________________________________________________________________ 
Web-hosting solutions for home and business! http://website.yahoo.ca



From Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com  Sun Feb 17 14:38:19 2002
From: Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com (Aberforth's Goat)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 15:38:19 +0100
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Being boring; public speaking
References: <a4nti1+5mqi@eGroups.com> <01be01c1b79c$96eed420$633570c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <003201c1b7c0$bed2bb90$0200a8c0@shasta>

> I've spoken in meetings where people have gone to sleep right
under my nose.
> That's how interesting I am.   I think it's my speaking voice,
which is not
> only very soft, but has all the tonal variety of a gently
humming fridge.
>
> Of course, that's when I'm at work droning on about something
that, frankly,
> makes *me* want to close my eyes and escape into daydreams.  If
I'm being
> passionate about something (it can happen), I can usually
manage to keep my
> companions in the land of the living.

Talking and boring people ... that's an odd one. I currently make
my living by standing in front of people and talking to them for
half an hour on Sunday mornings. And for some strange reason, I
can - and they don't fall asleep on me - and I love doing it.

But speaking in smaller group settings - or even worse,
facilitating meetings - that's a mystery. I guess it's like Neil
says - if I like the people and am excited about the topic, I do
OK. But I don't have that magic something or other that can pull
a group together and warm them up. (And the kind of people  who
are good at that tend to get on my  nerves - presumably a case of
sour grapes on my part ... )

BTW, I'm curious: is the kind of person who hangs out on this
kind of list typically good at acting and public speaking but
rather shy in direct personal conversation??

Baaaaaa!

Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray)
_______________________

"Of course, I'm not entirely sure he can read, so that may not
have
been bravery...."



_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com  Sun Feb 17 14:57:55 2002
From: Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com (Aberforth's Goat)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 15:57:55 +0100
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Defending ice dancing, the ISU and judging
References: <20020217053714.50843.qmail@web9502.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <005201c1b7c3$7b7addc0$0200a8c0@shasta>

Andrew took a

> step or six back

and contributed

> a rather radical proposal:

> Any 'sport' that requires external
> judging, where that judging awards/affects points
> should NOT be an Olympic sport.  That they are
> athletic in nature is a given.  But when the
> subjective nature of the judging is integral to the
> placements of the finishers, then the contest is not
> only between the open competitors but also
> amongst/between the judges...and the nations the
> judges really represent.

Phew! That's sounds a little tough. No more gymnasts, divers or
ski jumpers? (Actually, no. Scratch ski jumping. Switzerland has
a star or two and they currently have this obscenely boring sport
on TV all the time, and it's driving me crazy, and I'm for
banning it forever.)

Somehow, I think these qualitative sports are simply too
beautiful to chuck, even if they are a pain. I'm not sure I could
imagine caring about the Olympics if all it had left were a bunch
of people running around in circles really fast.

Baaaaaa!

Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray)
_______________________

"Of course, I'm not entirely sure he can read, so that may
not have been bravery...."




_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From damsel_since_ten at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 17 15:27:33 2002
From: damsel_since_ten at yahoo.com (dismal_sentence)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 15:27:33 -0000
Subject: Being boring; public speaking
In-Reply-To: <003201c1b7c0$bed2bb90$0200a8c0@shasta>
Message-ID: <a4oi55+ae1j@eGroups.com>

mike said, 
 
> BTW, I'm curious: is the kind of person who hangs out on this
> kind of list typically good at acting and public speaking but
> rather shy in direct personal conversation??

That's definitly me. Shy me. Shy shy. 

I got a letter in Drama and people ask me to do speech things. My best 
speech is during those times. And I have no idea what to say at meets 
like the NYC and London ones, so I just sit and watch and get caught 
off guard when someone actually speaks to me. 

s. 





From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Sun Feb 17 15:55:52 2002
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catorman)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 15:55:52 -0000
Subject: Being boring; public speaking
In-Reply-To: <003201c1b7c0$bed2bb90$0200a8c0@shasta>
Message-ID: <a4ojq8+5egi@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "Aberforth's Goat" 
<Aberforths_Goat at Y...> wrote:
> BTW, I'm curious: is the kind of person who hangs out on this
> kind of list typically good at acting and public speaking but
> rather shy in direct personal conversation??
> 
> Baaaaaa!
> 
> Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray)
> _______________________


I'm just the opposite.  I have a horror of speaking in public (can 
just about lead a Seminar if asked, but that's the extent of it), but 
enjoy small groups, personal conversation.  I think I've changed over 
that last few years, though.  I used to be extremely shy - now I can 
meet new people and talk to them quite comfortably.  When Mickey and 
I first got together and I used to have to go to business functions 
with him, I used to insist that he would not leave me on my own, as I 
just didn't have the confidence to mix and mingle and talk to other 
people.  I'm not like that anymore and find it quite easy, although I 
prefer small gatherings to large parties.

Catherine




From inviziblegirl at hotmail.com  Sun Feb 17 18:06:00 2002
From: inviziblegirl at hotmail.com (Amber ?)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 13:06:00 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Being boring; public speaking
Message-ID: <F112jpWkfb81IfpT8vW0000b100@hotmail.com>


Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a Mike Gray) wrote:
>BTW, I'm curious: is the kind of person who hangs out on this
>kind of list typically good at acting and public speaking but
>rather shy in direct personal conversation??

Shy, shy, shy, shy, shy, shy, shy. Did I mention shy? *grin*

I love mailing lists. In real life, I have a difficult time speaking with 
people, particularly if they are strangers. Mailing lists are great because 
I can take the time that I don't have in Real Time Interactions to compose 
all of my thoughts and arrange them. As I am a slow thinker, it typically 
takes me quite awhile to write emails, unless they are very short.

I *can* do public speaking (as I proved to myself in my Public Speaking 
class in high school) but I don't prefer it. I have to practice, practice, 
practice or I freeze up and start stuttering. Once I start stuttering, it's 
all over! It also helps to think of it as acting. Oddly enough, I have no 
problems getting on a stage in front of tons of people and being a 
character. Maybe it's because my every word is scripted for me and I don't 
have to worry about that! *grin*

~Amber

********
http://www.the-tabula-rasa.com

I am moved by fancies that are curled
Around these images, and cling:
The notion of some infinitely gentle
Infinitely suffering thing.
- excerpt from "Preludes" by T.S. Eliot



_________________________________________________________________
Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com




From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Feb 17 19:06:48 2002
From: catlady at wicca.net (catlady_de_los_angeles)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 19:06:48 -0000
Subject: Personal Greetings / Olympics / Boring / Shy
Message-ID: <a4ov08+jd48@eGroups.com>

Belated Happy Birthday to Betty.

Dismal_sentence is "back... temporarily... and feeling like I'm in a 
dismal sentence at the moment".  
.......... Catlady replies: Poor woobiekins, what's wrong? 

Drieux wrote:

> Ah, well...nice to think of restoring something like the original 
> purity of the Games, wasn't it?

Which purity was that? The *real* Olympics (in Greece, in worship of 
the Gods, no snow and ice sports) included events in composing paeans 
and performing epics, if you mean 'free of subjective aesthetic 
judgment'.

Neil wrote:

> I've spoken in meetings where people have gone to sleep right
> under my nose.

When I've fallen asleep in meetings, it usually has nothing to do with 
the speaker. I've fallen asleep even in very interesting archaeology 
lectures that I was really pissed to have missed. It has to do with 
sleep deficit and hypoglycemia.

Aberforth's Mike asked:

> is the kind of person who hangs out on this kind of list typically
> good at acting and public speaking but rather shy in direct 
> personal conversation??

Me, I am desperately helpless at acting, public speaking, anything 
that requires me to stand in front of an audience. So scared that 
I'm physically unable to squeak, let alone speak, y'know. I *can* ask 
a question from the audience, with pounding heart of fear and 
difficulty being loud enough to be heard at public lectures, with a 
relative comfort at department "all-hands" meetings. After 16 years
in this department, I know so *many* of the people one-on-one, 
including the big bosses, that I feel as I do in groups of friends.. 
well, 'friend' is a big word...

I mean, most of the people at work are *acquaintances', we don't 
hang out together socially, don't have interests or tastes in 
common outside work... Young Chang I dislike *intensely* ... but I've 
known these people for years and I am quite comfortable speaking with
them, individually or in smaller meetings (except I do feel some 
concern if the Department Head is in the meeting).

On the small-scale social level, I am as Catherine says she USED to 
be: "I used to insist that he would not leave me on my own, as I 
just didn't have the confidence to mix and mingle and talk to other 
people." As a teen, I used to try to drown my shyness in alcohol. 
Eventually I figured out that that was not having good results. Now I 
sit in a corner and watch the party (looking for people whom I 
know that I can cling to).

And, like invizible Amber, I feel differently about mailing lists 
than in person: "I love mailing lists. In real life, I have a 
difficult time speaking with people, particularly if they are 
strangers" but my reasons are somewhat different than hers. 

My reasons: for one, I quickly come to feel that I know (and am 
friends with!) the people whose posts I read, and I don't think about 
the lurkers.

For another, I'm hiding behind the written word, where no one can see 
my appearance (this does NOT help with telephones).

And there is a wall of time-delay protecting me (not in Chat), where 
if someone does say something very painful to me, maybe it will be 
less painful to my feelings because of not being said to my face, and 
certainly it will be less painful to my self-respect, because if it 
makes me cry, no one will see.




From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Feb 17 19:09:52 2002
From: catlady at wicca.net (catlady_de_los_angeles)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 19:09:52 -0000
Subject: Chat!
Message-ID: <a4ov60+d9hd@eGroups.com>

I tried a few times to get in with Cheetah and kept getting 'General 
Chat error' so I tried from this webpage and got 'General Chat error' 
again. Help!




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Sun Feb 17 19:19:41 2002
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catorman)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 19:19:41 -0000
Subject: Chat!
In-Reply-To: <a4ov60+d9hd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a4ovod+urci@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "catlady_de_los_angeles" <catlady at w...> 
wrote:
> I tried a few times to get in with Cheetah and kept 
getting 'General 
> Chat error' so I tried from this webpage and got 'General Chat 
error' 
> again. Help!

I was wondering why no one was there.  I managed without any problems 
though, so I don't know what's going on.  D'you want inviting in?

Catherine




From editor at texas.net  Sun Feb 17 19:22:55 2002
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 13:22:55 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Being boring; public speaking
References: <F112jpWkfb81IfpT8vW0000b100@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <001701c1b7e8$819b0340$d37c63d1@texas.net>

> Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a Mike Gray) wrote:
> >BTW, I'm curious: is the kind of person who hangs out on this
> >kind of list typically good at acting and public speaking but
> >rather shy in direct personal conversation??

Nope. In my case I'm a stay-at-home mom in a rural setting who has basically
no other adult contact (other than my husband). At least, when I joined the
list I was stay-at-home; now I work part-time and have no time, which
explains the precipitous fall about 10 months ago in my rate of posting. But
no, not particularly shy, people roll on the floor and laugh when I tell
them I think I'm an introvert. Ask Sheryll, the one Neil thought was
reserved (excuse me, I must go roll on the floor and laugh now).

--Amanda





From editor at texas.net  Sun Feb 17 19:28:22 2002
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 13:28:22 -0600
Subject: Olympic purity, was lotsa stuff (Personal Greetings / Olympics / Boring / Shy)
References: <a4ov08+jd48@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <002601c1b7e9$446de400$d37c63d1@texas.net>

> Drieux wrote:
>
> > Ah, well...nice to think of restoring something like the original
> > purity of the Games, wasn't it?
>
Catlady asked

> Which purity was that? The *real* Olympics (in Greece, in worship of
> the Gods, no snow and ice sports) included events in composing paeans
> and performing epics, if you mean 'free of subjective aesthetic
> judgment'.

How about having them do the Games in the buff again? It'd sure boost
attendance and viewing percentage....

--Amanda "I'd watch 'em" Geist





From Zorb17 at aol.com  Sun Feb 17 19:38:54 2002
From: Zorb17 at aol.com (Zorb17 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 14:38:54 EST
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Being boring; public speaking
Message-ID: <182.3bb805d.29a160ce@aol.com>

Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a Mike Gray) wrote:
>BTW, I'm curious: is the kind of person who hangs out on this
>kind of list typically good at acting and public speaking but
>rather shy in direct personal conversation??

Oh yes.  Extremely shy.  Actually, I used to be a lot worse.  That changed when I really got into acting in high school.  I've always been at home onstage; when you're acting, you're *a character*, and it's easier to do things you wouldn't normally do.  My theatre involvement helped bring me out of my shell a little, but I'm still shy and nervous in small groups when I don't know the people very well.  I always feel like I'm intruding and unwanted.  I'm much more comfortable on the Internet; here, you don't have to respond if you don't want to, and you can find people who you know have common ground with you.  In fact, I believe that my Internet involvement contributed to the lessening of my real life shyness, as well.


Zorb



From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Sun Feb 17 19:41:25 2002
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catorman)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 19:41:25 -0000
Subject: Chat - for anyone who wants to chat this evening, please read.
In-Reply-To: <a4ovod+urci@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a4p115+o9kr@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "catorman" <catherine at c...> wrote:
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "catlady_de_los_angeles" 
<catlady at w...> 
> wrote:
> > I tried a few times to get in with Cheetah and kept 
> getting 'General 
> > Chat error' so I tried from this webpage and got 'General Chat 
> error' 
> > again. Help!


We've set up a Yahoo conference, as chat doesn't seem to be working.  
To get in, please send a PM to anyone you think may be in there - 
either me:  catorman
or Rita:  catlady_de_los_angeles

and we'll invite you in.

Catherine




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Sun Feb 17 19:51:44 2002
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catorman)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 19:51:44 -0000
Subject: Chat - for anyone who wants to chat this evening, please read.
In-Reply-To: <a4p115+o9kr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a4p1kg+417r@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "catorman" <catherine at c...> wrote:
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "catorman" <catherine at c...> wrote:
> > --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "catlady_de_los_angeles" 
> <catlady at w...> 
> > wrote:
> > > I tried a few times to get in with Cheetah and kept 
> > getting 'General 
> > > Chat error' so I tried from this webpage and got 'General Chat 
> > error' 
> > > again. Help!
> 
> 
> We've set up a Yahoo conference, as chat doesn't seem to be 
working.  
> To get in, please send a PM to anyone you think may be in there - 
> either me:  catorman
> or Rita:  catlady_de_los_angeles
> 
> and we'll invite you in.
> 
> Catherine

I forgot to add that we're checking cheeta regularly, and if it 
starts working again, we'll decamp back again.





From michelleapostolides at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Feb 17 20:46:18 2002
From: michelleapostolides at yahoo.co.uk (Michelle Apostolides)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 20:46:18 -0000
Subject: Can someone let me in please
Message-ID: <001101c1b7f4$26dff800$f9e5883e@Michelle>

I've tried IM ing. Yahoo is being crap but can Someone let me and Neil in please ?

Michelle


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From michelleapostolides at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Feb 17 21:09:44 2002
From: michelleapostolides at yahoo.co.uk (Michelle Apostolides)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 21:09:44 -0000
Subject: Chat
Message-ID: <001a01c1b7f7$6c68d7e0$f9e5883e@Michelle>

Anyone wanting to join Sunday Chat please page me on Yahoo messenger as pinguthegreek. 

Michelle


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 17 21:11:02 2002
From: virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com (virtualworldofhp)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 21:11:02 -0000
Subject: Ice skating and other extreme sports (was Re: Defending ice dancing, the ISU and
In-Reply-To: <01d701c1b7a1$1633dd80$633570c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <a4p696+3fbb@eGroups.com>

<a lot of stuff by a lot of people about Olympics and judging>

Sports that would be out:
Gymnastics
Diving
Sychronized Swimming
Aerials
Moguls
Figure Skating
Dressage
Snowboard Half-Pipe

How boring!!  Personally, I think Ballroom Dancing *SHOULD* be a
sport.  Have you ever watched a competition?  Those people are
awesome--and you've GOT to be athletic.  That stuff looks tough.  How
can you throw out gymnastics as an Olympic sport?  Or diving?  These
sports are quintessential to what we've come to know as the Olympics
or sport.  You want to throw things out, try curling (glorified
shuffleboard??) and thank goodness they haven't stuck golf in there yet.

Yes, things judged by speed or distance are nice for the average
viewer, but where's the allowance for creativity or expression? 
That's why there ARE those other sports that leave room for that.

I saw leave those in, maybe add some more--repair the judging process
where it needs it, and continue to put on miraculous Olympic events.

-Megan (an Olympic-junkie)




From dizzylizzy182 at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 17 21:36:14 2002
From: dizzylizzy182 at yahoo.com (Elizabeth Sager)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 13:36:14 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Baaaah!
In-Reply-To: <1013961355.1630.83952.m4@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20020217213614.14515.qmail@web20404.mail.yahoo.com>

Mike asked:
<<BTW, I'm curious: is the kind of person who hangs
out on this
kind of list typically good at acting and public
speaking but
rather shy in direct personal conversation??>>

Ooh, that's me. I can get up in front of an auditorium
full of people and perform in a musical, I can twirl
in front of a football stadium full of people in forty
degree weather, and I can stand up in front of a group
of people that I don't know at all and read an excerpt
from "Alice in Wonderland", but I'm a HORRIBLE
conversationalist one on one. Mostly because I like a
lot of input, and I'm out of practice one-on-one
speaking. 

:D

Liz (who is probably one of the must mundane people on
this list)

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games
http://sports.yahoo.com



From michelleapostolides at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Feb 17 22:35:46 2002
From: michelleapostolides at yahoo.co.uk (Michelle Apostolides)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 22:35:46 -0000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Chat
References: <001a01c1b7f7$6c68d7e0$f9e5883e@Michelle>
Message-ID: <000501c1b803$7188fbe0$f9e5883e@Michelle>

Anyone wanting to join Sunday Chat please page me on Yahoo messenger as pinguthegreek. 

Can someone let me back in please ?



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From saitaina at wizzards.net  Sun Feb 17 22:32:24 2002
From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 14:32:24 -0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Chat
References: <001a01c1b7f7$6c68d7e0$f9e5883e@Michelle> <000501c1b803$7188fbe0$f9e5883e@Michelle>
Message-ID: <003d01c1b802$f9719360$d84e28d1@saitaina>

For those of you who cannot get in nor can you get ahold of our guides, I
offer an alternative though I think you can only reach it through Cheeta.  I
have a spare room, HPSlash that is open and waiting.  If you want to join
me...feel free, otherwise, nice day.

Saitaina
*****
"I should go help," Willow said. "Or Giles is liable to speak English and no
one will understand him."-Willow,"Master of Puppets", by Saber
ShadowKitten-Buffy the Vampire Slayer-fanfic

"I'm not listening to you. I am at one. I am at peace with all living things
and if you break my concintration, I will break your legs."-Angel, "The
Florida Vacation"-Buffy the Vampire Slayer-fanfiction

"That's allright, Harry." said Dumbledore cheerfully. "We'll give you
another two years and then we'll feed you to a balisk."-Dumbledore,"Draco
Dormiens, by Cassandra Claire-Harry Potter-fanfic






From macloudt at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Feb 17 22:42:36 2002
From: macloudt at yahoo.co.uk (macloudt)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 22:42:36 -0000
Subject: Being boring/people at parties.
In-Reply-To: <a4o3s0+34f4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a4pbks+3lr6@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "catorman" <catherine at c...> wrote:

<snip party guest from Hell>

> I just don't understand why someone, at a social gathering, would 
be 
> so rude and obnoxious with someone he'd just met.  He talked to 
> Mickey for a while as well, who had the same problem with him, and 
> when I asked Judith (the hostess) about him, she said that he was 
> always like that.  My reaction was, well then, why is he your 
friend, 
> and why did you invite him to your party, considering he's 
absolutely 
> no social skills whatsoever, and thinks that it is clever to insult 
> as many people as possible in the room.  I didn't say that to her 
> obviously, although I probably will next time I see her.
> 
> Oh well, maybe he just didn't like my face.
> 
> Catherine

Egad, Catherine, what a way to spend an evening.  From the sounds of 
it, root canal with the Teletubbies playing in the background would 
have been more enjoyable.  He had no right to say such things about 
you, your DH, or anyone else for that matter.  What a waste of 
molecules.

As a friend of mine likes to say, "The things you see when you 
haven't got a gun".

Sheesh.

Mary Ann
(who is normally anti-violence but will gladly make the occasional 
acceptance)




From macloudt at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Feb 17 22:53:20 2002
From: macloudt at yahoo.co.uk (macloudt)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 22:53:20 -0000
Subject: Being boring; public speaking
In-Reply-To: <003201c1b7c0$bed2bb90$0200a8c0@shasta>
Message-ID: <a4pc90+ukvs@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "Aberforth's Goat" 
<Aberforths_Goat at Y...> wrote:

> BTW, I'm curious: is the kind of person who hangs out on this
> kind of list typically good at acting and public speaking but
> rather shy in direct personal conversation??
> 
Public speaking!? AAAKKK!!  Shoot me now!  Hate it passionately, in 
any form.  I can still feel my palms sweating up just thinking of 
whenever I had to make a class presentation, which all students 
(myself included) usually turned into Nap Time, so no one but the 
prof (hopefully anyway) was listening.  As for acting...well, just 
call me a bad liar and leave it at that.

Nope, I'm pretty introverted.  I'm far more comfortable in a small 
group than a large one.  I'm one of those people who stands in the 
corner during a party (next to the crackers and dip if possible) 
looking and feeling like a nerk because large social gatherings leave 
me feeling lost.  But I'll happily strike up a conversation with one 
or two people and not feel too self-concious.  It's simply the way I 
am. I enjoy this group so much because it feels like a small social 
gathering, even if there are 600+ members.  Boring?  Yep, but my 
front door is always open anyway if you're in the mood for a chat and 
a cuppa.

Cheers!

Mary Ann :)




From kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk  Sun Feb 17 22:59:34 2002
From: kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk (Kathryn)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 22:59:34 -0000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Being boring; public speaking
References: <a4pc90+ukvs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000e01c1b806$c5e02440$040486d9@monica>

Oh God I second that. Our professor has decided that he has wasted vast swathes of his life listening to bloody awful presentations so he's going to make us do them and hopefully there will be a new generation of academics who know what there doing (some hope)
So anyway I have to speak for 15 minutes to my entire MA course this Friday, ack, shoot me now, seriously!
Apparently (and I'm quoting from someone I saw on a chat show on this) public speaking is the number one fear of people in this country, according to surveys, death comes at number 2. Therefore at a funeral most people would prefer to be in the coffin than giving the eulogy :)

K
If an advisor says to me "My liege, he is but one man. What can one man possibly do?", I will reply "This." and kill the advisor.
http://minievil.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: macloudt 
  To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2002 10:53 PM
  Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Being boring; public speaking


  --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "Aberforth's Goat" 
  <Aberforths_Goat at Y...> wrote:

  > BTW, I'm curious: is the kind of person who hangs out on this
  > kind of list typically good at acting and public speaking but
  > rather shy in direct personal conversation??
  > 
  Public speaking!? AAAKKK!!  Shoot me now!  Hate it passionately, in 
  any form.  I can still feel my palms sweating up just thinking of 
  whenever I had to make a class presentation, which all students 
  (myself included) usually turned into Nap Time, so no one but the 
  prof (hopefully anyway) was listening.  As for acting...well, just 
  call me a bad liar and leave it at that.

  Nope, I'm pretty introverted.  I'm far more comfortable in a small 
  group than a large one.  I'm one of those people who stands in the 
  corner during a party (next to the crackers and dip if possible) 
  looking and feeling like a nerk because large social gatherings leave 
  me feeling lost.  But I'll happily strike up a conversation with one 
  or two people and not feel too self-concious.  It's simply the way I 
  am. I enjoy this group so much because it feels like a small social 
  gathering, even if there are 600+ members.  Boring?  Yep, but my 
  front door is always open anyway if you're in the mood for a chat and 
  a cuppa.

  Cheers!

  Mary Ann :)


        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
              ADVERTISEMENT
             
       
       

  ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________

  Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the group's Admin Files!
  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/

  Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying!

  Is your message...
  An announcement of merchandise, news etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements.
  Movie-related? Send it to HPFGU-Movie.
  Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups.
  None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter.
  Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com

  Unsubscribing? Email HPFGU-OTChatter-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
  ____________________________________________________________


  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From catlady at wicca.net  Mon Feb 18 03:26:22 2002
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 19:26:22 -0800
Subject: The Cat Princess
Message-ID: <3C70745E.6601C56A@wicca.net>

On the main list, Tabouli wrote:

<< I, Tabouli, think Mrs Norris is not an Animagus (who would have
control over her shape transformations) but a human being under a curse
or enchantment, like the Frog Prince (the Cat Princess?)>>

No, no! *I* 'm the Cat Princess! 
-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------

          /\ /\                                          ___  ___
           + +     Mews and views                       ( @ \/ @ ) 
         >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston        \ @  @ / 
                                                          \ () /  
                     ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._             \  / 
                     `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)       \/ 
                     (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                    _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                   ((('   (((-(((''  ((((



From cindysphynx at home.com  Mon Feb 18 03:41:31 2002
From: cindysphynx at home.com (cindysphynx)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 03:41:31 -0000
Subject: Elimating Non-Sports (WAS Defending ice dancing, the ISU and judging)
In-Reply-To: <20020217053714.50843.qmail@web9502.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <a4pt5b+erdg@eGroups.com>

Andrew wrote:

> Let me take a step or six back and offer a rather
> radical proposal:  Any 'sport' that requires external
> judging, where that judging awards/affects points
> should NOT be an Olympic sport.  That they are
> athletic in nature is a given.  But when the
> subjective nature of the judging is integral to the
> placements of the finishers, then the contest is not
> only between the open competitors but also
> amongst/between the judges...and the nations the
> judges really represent.

Hold on there! :-)

Diving and gymnastics can stay, can't they?  Those are *real 
sports.*  Actually, gymnasts aren't even regular athletes.  They are 
like space aliens who lack proper bones or something.  We *can't* 
toss them out of the Olympics.  Besides, we short people have to have 
a few sports where we excel, right?  :-)

Yes, there is some subjectivity.  But both sports have done a number 
of things to reduce the subjectivity.  Gymnastics (unlike figure 
skating) has a rigid point code.  Certain moves are worth a certain 
amount, so an easy routine starts with a lower base mark than a hard 
routine, and there is much less room for judges to cheat.  Diving has 
the degree of difficulty (and the tell-tale splash), which serves the 
same function.  

Figure skating (even ice dancing) is probably here to stay.  So maybe 
they will make one small reform for me.  I'd like to see a round 
called "Costume Approval."  Men would be directed to steer away from 
the flashy, sequin-covered outfits that have become way too popular.  
Rolled up sleeves are good and will receive higher marks from the 
judges; plunging necklines will generate substantial deductions.  
Under this system, Alexi Urmanov, who wore the Puffy Shirt from 
Seinfeld, would have been sent home before he ever set foot on the 
ice.  

I hear they are considering Trampoline as a Summer event.  I suppose 
they will slot it in the Circus Act division, right up there with 
Rhythm Gymnastics.  I understand that there is actually something 
called "Synchronized Skating."  I'm not sure I want to know what that 
is.

Cindy (who thinks that the fact that a male ice dancer wound up with 
lipstick on his nose after his original dance speaks for itself)




From blpurdom at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 18 04:10:42 2002
From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 04:10:42 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter Triathletes
Message-ID: <a4pus2+8cs3@eGroups.com>

Here's the url for a story in today's Philadelphia Inquirer.  It's a 
followup to the recent story about police in Lancaster Cty., PA 
refusing to provide their services during a triathlon being 
sponsored by the local YMCA because the Y reads Harry Potter books 
to kids in the afterschool program there.


http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/2689971.htm

--Barb
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Psych
http://schnoogle.com/authorLinka/Barb






From macloudt at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Feb 18 11:12:33 2002
From: macloudt at yahoo.co.uk (macloudt)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 11:12:33 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter Triathletes
In-Reply-To: <a4pus2+8cs3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a4qnj1+m4na@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "blpurdom" <blpurdom at y...> wrote:

> Here's the url for a story in today's Philadelphia Inquirer.  It's 
a 
> followup to the recent story about police in Lancaster Cty., PA 
> refusing to provide their services during a triathlon being 
> sponsored by the local YMCA because the Y reads Harry Potter books 
> to kids in the afterschool program there.
> 
> 
> http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/2689971.htm
> 
Yet another example of the Universal Stupidity Gene running out of 
control.  Thanks for this, Barb.  They most definately deserve the 
Doofus of the Month award.  Surely the kids who will benefit from the 
fundraising deserve better than this.  Shame I'm nowhere near Philly, 
or I'd volunteer myself.

Mary Ann
(who's having a hard time restraining herself from what she *really* 
wants to say)




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Mon Feb 18 12:09:12 2002
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (lupinesque)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 12:09:12 -0000
Subject: public speaking
In-Reply-To: <000e01c1b806$c5e02440$040486d9@monica>
Message-ID: <a4qqt8+47bf@eGroups.com>

Kathryn wrote:

> So anyway I have to speak for 15 minutes to my entire MA course this 
Friday, ack, shoot me now, seriously!
> Apparently (and I'm quoting from someone I saw on a chat show on 
this) public speaking is the number one fear of people in this 
country, according to surveys, death comes at number 2. Therefore at a 
funeral most people would prefer to be in the coffin than giving the 
eulogy :)

I was wondering if anyone else had heard that statistic!

In my experience, public speaking gets a lot easier with experience.  
My knees used to shake so badly I didn't think I'd be able to stand 
up, and I'd have, shall we say, digestive problems every time I had to 
speak (still keep Pepto Bismol in my desk for this very reason), 
but I am very seldom more than slightly nervous now.  (However, I know 
at least one minister who's been at it for 20 years and still gets 
stage fright every single Sunday.)

Where my fear of public speaking expresses itself is in the writing 
of whatever I'm going to say in public.  90% of my considerable 
writer's block comes from the fear that I'm going to sound stupid, 
boring, trite, disorganized, pompous . . . you name it, my inner 
editor accuses me of it.  I am okay once I get up there, but the 
process of writing it all down beforehand is fraught with terror.

The other 10% is just plain laziness.

Good luck, Kathryn,
Amy




From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Mon Feb 18 14:21:39 2002
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naamagatus)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 14:21:39 -0000
Subject: About Rupert
Message-ID: <a4r2lj+6vq0@eGroups.com>

Hi,

I was over at the Movie list checking things out and I bumped into a 
discussion about Dan Radcliff (or is it Radcliffe? I'm too lazy to go 
check) that mentioned Rupert Grint. I suddenly remembered how good I 
thought him in the movie, and got to wondering whether he was really 
good or whether he was only good by comparison. (I can't ask this at 
the Movie list because it wouldn't be nice, when everyone there loves 
the movie, to intrude with my perfect loathing of it.) 
So, if any of you shares my distaste (John?), what do you think of 
Rupert? Really good or only comparatively so?

Naama, maliciously pleased that HP *didn't* get any Oscar nominations




From tabouli at unite.com.au  Mon Feb 18 14:37:27 2002
From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 01:37:27 +1100
Subject: The self: The written, the acted and the tolerable
Message-ID: <002501c1b889$e08aaee0$0f26ddcb@price>

The Goat:
> is the kind of person who hangs out on this kind of list typically
> good at acting and public speaking but rather shy in direct 
> personal conversation??

Excellent, excellent!   A nice juicy fictional/factual thread!  (on second thoughts, how does a thread manage to be juicy, unless you dip it in juice?)(Tabouli reads what she has just typed, blinks, and shakes her head)

The Cat princess quoting Amber:
> And, like invizible Amber, I feel differently about mailing lists 
than in person: "I love mailing lists. In real life, I have a 
difficult time speaking with people, particularly if they are 
strangers" but my reasons are somewhat different than hers. <

Correspondences, be they snail, email or otherwise, are a wonderful way to become a self-written fictional character.  In an exchange of written monologues, you can present the best and most interesting parts of yourself, you can redraft invisibly, you have plenty of time to consider your reactions and responses.  To a much greater degree than with a face-to-face meeting, you have Control.

I had my first penfriend at the age of 10 (an American girl from Vermont), and became almost a full-time fictional person at 14, at least for a couple of years.  At the time, I was so self-conscious and afraid of others' judgment I found interacting with people a positive torture. After every conversation I would go away and mull over the conversation, almost word for word, and discover ten or twelve places where I'd made a fool of myself, or misrepresented myself, or offended without intending to, etc.etc.etc.  Not to mention what they thought of my looks, my voice, my clothes, the way I was sitting, the brand of plastic bag I was carrying and so on.

I would lie awake and fret and fret, and end up apologising to the person concerned days later when they'd forgotten the entire conversation and (aaarrrggh!) thought I was obsessive and paranoid.  Everything I said or did would potentially give away that I wasn't the smart, friendly, socially functional person I was pretending to be, but the withdrawn, useless, socially clueless, goody-goody loser I had been in primary school.

I was also in a very snooty, sheltered, upper-middle class academic girls' school, mingling in circles where I had no outlet for my analytical, philosophical, offbeat instincts.

All in all, I was a very good candidate for an obsession with letter-writing (thankfully the internet wasn't around then, or I'd never have finished school!).  What a safe, stimulating domain!  I had up to 8 penfriends at one stage, but developed a particular preoccupation with one of them.  Male, inevitably, but also intelligent and philosophical enough to talk to about all the things that had nowhere else to go, and conveniently on the other side of the world, so I had total control over what he knew about me!  People at school, my family (troubles there as well, of course) receded into a safe, fascinating fictional haze...

The real world claimed me again eventually, when I was 17 or so, but the mark is still on me (witness my copious posts to HPFGU!).  Mailing lists just mean there are more fictional characters co-writing the story.

The Cat princess speaking for herself:
> My reasons: for one, I quickly come to feel that I know (and am 
friends with!) the people whose posts I read, and I don't think about 
the lurkers.<
>
>For another, I'm hiding behind the written word, where no one can see 
my appearance (this does NOT help with telephones).<
>
>And there is a wall of time-delay protecting me (not in Chat), where 
if someone does say something very painful to me, maybe it will be 
less painful to my feelings because of not being said to my face, and 
certainly it will be less painful to my self-respect, because if it 
makes me cry, no one will see.<

These are all the reasons why I first retreated into letters myself.  The first point is particularly interesting... I actually think I, personally, reveal much more meaningful things about myself through writing than I do through conversation, where all the walls of social nicety and appearances are in the way (not to mention the inevitably self-consciousness).  I think someone could know more about the part of me that's really *me* through a correspondence than a real life acquaintance of the same tenure.  Maybe I assume this all too readily about other people as well, perhaps wrongly.

What do you all think?  Do you think you, and people in general who are given to copious letter/post writing, reveal more meaningful things about who they are in fiction than in reality?  (depends on the person, obviously, but I still wonder...)  I often wish it were easier to get through to who someone really is in real life... there seems to be so much functionless form and small talk insulating people.  I remember getting introduced to the new occupational health and safety manager and even calling him down to adjust my chair and desk at work, and how stiltedly friendly and polite we were, for form's sake.  Then I learned that he had a band and a recording studio, and he learned that I wrote songs, and we sat down and had a *real* conversation, with feeling and genuine interest.  Suddenly he was a person, a person I might like to be friends with, instead of another anonymous colleague I said hello to in the corridor.

Mary Ann:
> Public speaking!? AAAKKK!!  Shoot me now!  Hate it passionately, in 
any form.

Zorb:
> Oh yes.  Extremely shy.  Actually, I used to be a lot worse.  That changed when I really got into acting in high school.  I've always been at home onstage; when you're acting, you're *a character*, and it's easier to do things you wouldn't normally do. 


Interesting.  These days my very job is public speaking, and, moreover, presenting often reluctant audiences with challenging and socio-politically charged materials.  I can't afford to let nervousness overwhelm me... I need to sound authoritative and think on my feet and sound like I know what I'm talking about!  Fortunately, I got to practise my public speaking on fairly uncritical Asian international undergraduate students when I first started cross-cultural training, and had found my feet by the time I started facing a sea of frowning 50 year old WASP men in expensive grey suits with their arms folded against politically correct claptrap, preparing to ask the nastiest jeering questions they can think of and walk out pointedly in 10 minutes if they're convinced I'm wasting their time (though I still quail, believe you me!).  After such baptisms of fire, I was amazed how much easier it was to do things like defend my thesis and make speeches at functions!

All the same, as Zorb says, public speaking in my professional role is easier because it's like acting.  Besides which, in the cross-cultural area, I tend to have a huge advantage over my audiences, anyway.  I've done enough to *know* the basic breeds of heckler, and have, over the years, developed techniques (and even slides) for dealing with them.  It's usually the most ethnocentric people who are the most aggressive, though you sometimes get someone who considers themselves an expert in a culture you've mentioned who is determined to discredit you, or a competitive academic or postgrad student who wants to trump you with more recent research and theory.  Cross-cultural training is no picnic, let me tell you...

(and ha, I was recently approached by a university who want me to train up some cross-cultural trainers for them!  They want me to produce a team of cross-cultural trainers in, wait for it, two days of training!)

Unfortunately, my ability to argue assertively does not extend very far outside the seminar room.  I may not come across that way, but I'm in fact accommodating to the point of wimpery and wussiness.  There's a terrible irony to the fact that I cut my cross-cultural training teeth on teaching international students assertiveness and social skills for living in an individualist culture, and veritably *modelled* assertive behaviour in roleplay after roleplay, yet am totally unable to be assertive as myself and am a total social paranoiac!!

Gah!

Tabouli (who did, nonetheless, gain hours of amusement from playing the loudmouthed, racist Australian in those roleplays...)

P.S.
The tolerable David:
> I always struggle with the feeling, IRL as well as on and off-list, 
> that people are only being polite and really they only tolerate (in 
> the bad sense) me.
> I don't know what the answer is - extracting assurances from people 
> that they like you works for a short time, but I rationalise it as 
> politeness after a while.  Possibly we do need more impoliteness, 
> after all, to earth it all in reality.

Ahhh, that ol' vicious circle of insecurity.  All too familiar.  If they insult you, they're telling the truth.  If they compliment you, they're lying in order to be polite, or manipulative (i.e. they want something).  If they reassure you that their compliments are sincere, at first you doubt their honesty, and, if they persist and seem genuine, their judgment.  Insecurity has a nasty habit of being self-reinforcing that way.  All the same, I'm cautious about abandoning diplomacy too whole-heartedly for Truth... that sort of philosophy is what leads to the sort of person Catherine described meeting at that party...


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Mon Feb 18 14:34:30 2002
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (lupinesque)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 14:34:30 -0000
Subject: About Rupert
In-Reply-To: <a4r2lj+6vq0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a4r3dm+92gs@eGroups.com>

Naama wrote:

(I can't ask this at 
> the Movie list because it wouldn't be nice, when everyone there 
loves 
> the movie, to intrude with my perfect loathing of it.) 

I really think you should post it to the Movie list.  What's the point 
of a discussion group where people only rave?  On the main list we 
criticize the books all the time.  I promise I'll respond and say 
three things I dislike about the movie (even though I loved it and 
just saw it for the 4th time yesterday . . . ahhhhhhhh).

Amy





From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Mon Feb 18 14:55:42 2002
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naamagatus)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 14:55:42 -0000
Subject: About Rupert
In-Reply-To: <a4r3dm+92gs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a4r4le+p6aj@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "lupinesque" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:
> Naama wrote:
> 
> (I can't ask this at 
> > the Movie list because it wouldn't be nice, when everyone there 
> loves 
> > the movie, to intrude with my perfect loathing of it.) 
> 
> I really think you should post it to the Movie list.  What's the 
point 
> of a discussion group where people only rave?  On the main list we 
> criticize the books all the time.  I promise I'll respond and say 
> three things I dislike about the movie (even though I loved it and 
> just saw it for the 4th time yesterday . . . ahhhhhhhh).
> 
> Amy

Yes, but you're a nice forgiving person. What about the other 1000 
odd movie fans? I'm sure some of them will be sticking pins into a 
doll labeled "Naama" after I freely express myself there. <whine> I 
feel safer here.. 

Naama :-)




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Mon Feb 18 16:06:39 2002
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (lupinesque)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 16:06:39 -0000
Subject: Let's storm the movie list!
In-Reply-To: <a4r4le+p6aj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a4r8qf+epcl@eGroups.com>

Naama shivered:

> What about the other 1000 
> odd movie fans? I'm sure some of them will be sticking pins into a 
> doll labeled "Naama" after I freely express myself there. <whine> I 
> feel safer here.. 

This has gone far enough!  How long are we going to allow ourselves to 
be held hostage by the Sean-droolers, the deranged DRIFTIES, the 
AlanSchnooglers, the Williams worshippers*?  It's an HPfGU 
list, damn it, and none of us should fear to enter.  Besides, I'm a 
contrarian.  If a conversation is all going one way I have a 
compulsion to throw in my monkey wrench.

Ronlike, I propose that by dinner each person here who has something 
critical to say about the movie goes to the Movie list and says it.  
Nicely, politely, but in a firm and confident voice.  Naama, you 
must've had dinner already so you get 'til breakfast.

I'm serious!

See you on HPfGU-Movie,
Amy

*None of this should be construed as disagreement with any of these 
opinions per se.  I think Sean's a cutie, they should invent a Best 
Newcomer Academy award for Dan, Alan Rickman's voice gives me the most 
pleasant of shivers and John Williams . . . okay, he sucks, I can't 
find a nice word to say about the score.  But you get my point.




From moongirlk at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 18 16:16:31 2002
From: moongirlk at yahoo.com (moongirlk)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 16:16:31 -0000
Subject: All the olympics stuff
Message-ID: <a4r9cv+ssgi@eGroups.com>

Yay!  More posts about the olympics in general and skating in 
particular.  Hoorah!

Cindy said, re: ice dancing:

>I also think early ice dancing was great, and I remember Torvil and 
>Dean quite fondly. But something has changed in ice dancing. It 
>started the year that Torvil and Dean made their come-back and won 
>only the bronze medal in the Olympics for reasons that were never 
>clear to me. Ever since, the fix has been in, IMHO.

In that instance the judges had the lift rule to blame for it.  In 
ice dancing they're not allowed to do lifts over the height of their 
shoulders (or heads, can't remember).  Torvil and Dean did a move 
where in the course of a lift, she flipped up over his head.  I think 
it could easily have been interpreted as a sort of 'dismount' to the 
lift and applauded for it's originality and way-coolness, but it did, 
at least, give the judges an excuse to be stupid.  Now that's not me 
defending the judging system, because I hated it too, and have ever 
since suspected that they've been cheating all along and I just 
didn't know it before, but I do prefer that they at least have a 
pretext for infuriating me. 

Cindy again:
>And nothing is more of a snooze than the compulsory dance, where 
>couple after couple after couple after couple dance the same darn 
>routine to the same music. Grrr!

100% agreed here, but it *is* the part where they differentiate one 
pair from another skill-wise, as you'd asked.  If everyone's doing 
the same moves, you can tell if one pair is doing it better than 
another.  Maybe they can keep that part, but not bore the home 
audience with it!  
The middle part (can never remember what it's called - ice dance's 
equivalent of the short program, it was on last night?) is 
interesting because they all have to skate to the same basic theme 
and type of music, but they have freedom in the specifics.  I imagine 
this is good for judging interpretation, and there are required 
elements for judging skills.  If there were real judges instead of 
politicians at the judging table I think ice dance (and figure 
skating in general) would be much more widely accepted as a sport).

Cindy again again:
>Now that judging corruption is out in the open, it does give me 
>pause about other results over the years. I wonder how Nancy 
>Kerrigan is feeling these days?

As long as she stays off my TV screen, I won't worry about her.  She 
was such a bratty girl. 

Cindy yet again:

>I'd like to see them further change the scoring so that any jump 
>coming out of steps or a spread-eagle or something attractive gets 
>extra points for difficulty.

Here's hoping.  They should require all amature skaters to watch 
films of Scott Hamilton's and Kurt Browning's footwork sequences 
until they internalize the idea that skating has elements that are 
not jumping.
And speaking of Scotty, you mentioned his commentating.  I couldn't 
be more relieved that he's in the booth this year.  Dick Button is so 
negative - he tends to ruin my fun. 

On the discussion of kicking judged sports out of the Olympics:

I don't see it happening, if only because they'd loose so much of the 
audience that they'd find the ratings all going to reruns of the 
Price is Right on the gameshow network or something.  Don't get me 
wrong - the other sports are great and all, they just can't hold my 
interest for three weeks straight.  I second our Goat friend:

Mike Gray:

>I'm not sure I could imagine caring about the Olympics if all it had 
>left were a bunch of people running around in circles really fast.

That said, I'd be ok with nixing synchornized swimming and rythmic 
gymnastics, but don't take away my skating, snowboarding and (real)
gymnastics, please!

jenP_97 said:
>PS. Does anyone else get heart palpitations watching short-track 
>speed skating? I SWEAR, someone's gonna get KILLED doing that!!

Me! I do!  I hold my breath through every turn, but it's so 
fascinating that I can't look away.

And one last one from Cindy, in honor of the fact that she's as big 
of a figure skating fan as I am:

>So maybe they will make one small reform for me. I'd like to see a 
>round called "Costume Approval." Men would be directed to steer away 
>from the flashy, sequin-covered outfits that have become way too 
>popular. Rolled up sleeves are good and will receive higher marks 
>from the judges; plunging necklines will generate substantial 
>deductions. Under this system, Alexi Urmanov, who wore the Puffy 
>Shirt from Seinfeld, would have been sent home before he ever set 
>foot on the ice. 

Cindy!  I nearly sprayed juice all over my monitor and shouted "get 
outa my head!".  I've always referred to Urmonov as the air-filter 
poodle guy (and people tend to know who I mean) because of the 
rediculous thing he had around his neck in the Olympics the year he 
medaled.  I think he should have lost at least a few tenths for 
that.  Very distracting.  So while we're at it, could we penalize 
excess makeup, sparkly things on people's faces, women's costumes 
that ride up, unitards (or anything that's more like tights than 
pants) for men, and any costume that either has random whispy bits 
hanging off of it or cannot be easily explained by the theme of the 
music?  Yes - a taste requirement!  

kimberly
proposing to try and slip these rules in while they're revamping the 
judging.





From ameliagoldfeesh at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 18 16:34:39 2002
From: ameliagoldfeesh at yahoo.com (ameliagoldfeesh)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 16:34:39 -0000
Subject: SINKING Ships, characterizations
Message-ID: <a4raev+kemf@eGroups.com>

	First off I'd like to state again that I'm not a shipper...so I"m 
a bit embarrassed this is my second post in a row that has shipping
in the subject.  In fact I'm basically a LANDLUBBER when it comes to 
the students- I liked how on the main list Tabouli brought up the
topic of future and past speculation- I enjoy the past speculation or 
backstory speculations of characters but if I see a ship post
referring to the students I'll groan to myself, selfishly hope they 
don't get too numerous and fast forward through them.
 
 "bbennett320178" <bbennett at j...> asked:  Are there certain 
characterizations that you generally find unbelieveable, be it R/H or 
H/H, that prevents you from 'buying' the story?

	I suppose the reason I don't 'buy' H/H as easily is I'm trusting 
JKR so far and she seems to have set up R/H as I see it.  I can't 
really comment on any H/H fanfic because I've never really read any
or what little I have read hasn't made much of a memorable impact on
me when it comes to characterizations.  So I'm probably more biased 
than what I think I am. :)

	When it comes to being influenced by non-canon I am more 
susceptible when it comes to Snape.  For instance, in many of the 
stories Lucius Malfoy plays a big part in Snape's DE
backstory/history. But in canon, while the fourth book indicates this 
could be the case, I believe I've seen it pointed out that they've
only been in one scene together in the books.  In canon, Mr. Weasley 
and Mr. Malfoy are more obvious enemies than Snape/Malfoy.

	I feel like I've more been rambling than anything else in this 
post. :)  

	A Goldfeesh

          And the words that are used
          For to get the ship confused
          Will not be understood as they're spoken.
          For the chains of the sea
          Will have busted in the night
          And will be buried at the bottom of the ocean.
                   Bob Dylan, "When the Ship Comes In"





From cindysphynx at home.com  Mon Feb 18 16:51:33 2002
From: cindysphynx at home.com (cindysphynx)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 16:51:33 -0000
Subject: All the olympics stuff
In-Reply-To: <a4r9cv+ssgi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a4rbel+l8e9@eGroups.com>

Kimberly wrote (about short track skating):

>I hold my breath through every turn, but it's so 
> fascinating that I can't look away.

I think that short track skating takes the cake for Most Lawless 
Olympic sport.  Even in boxing, you have a referee to control things, 
for cryin' out loud.  In short track, you have the gold medal round 
of a short track event, four skaters are dashing to the finish line, 
the leader gets knocked down through no fault of his own, and the 
*slowest* guy wins?  This makes me want to start training as a short 
track skater because, heck, you never know, I might actually bring 
home the gold.

Today's Washington Post mentioned the nice Australian fellow who 
skipped off with the gold medal, solely due to the fact that he was 
so thoroughly out-classed that he was in no position to win.  They 
said that he had been severely injured twice in the sport.  Once he 
actually broke his neck (C5 and C6, I think).  A second time, he fell 
on someone's skate blade and cut through all four of his quad 
muscles.  Maybe these guys should skate in a suit of armor.

If I might be so bold, I think they need to fiddle with the short 
track rules just a bit.  In previous rounds, some skaters who fell 
due to fouls by other skaters were advanced to the next round.  Why, 
then, do they not have a similar remedy in the gold medal round?  
Shouldn't they have a provision for a re-skate when a gold medal is 
at stake?

Kimberly again (on figure skating):

>So while we're at it, could we penalize 
> excess makeup, sparkly things on people's faces, women's costumes 
> that ride up, unitards (or anything that's more like tights than 
> pants) for men, and any costume that either has random whispy bits 
> hanging off of it or cannot be easily explained by the theme of the 
> music?  Yes - a taste requirement!  
> 

I think I have found my soul mate!  Yes.  We will also have automatic 
disqualifications for any men sporting chest hair through plunging 
necklines, and a life-time ban for anyone with a large gold medallion 
on a gold chain resting on top of their chest hair.  We will 
discourage that skin-colored netting that covers so much of many 
costumes.  We will have an equal opportunity ban on unitards, as 
Debbie Thomas wore won in the Olympics for reasons that cannot be 
explained.  We will have a special 3-day clinic to straighten out 
Surya Bonaly. 

Yes, that should work.

Cindy (who thinks short track skaters might well be the Toughest 
Winter Olympic athletes)




From cindysphynx at home.com  Mon Feb 18 16:54:02 2002
From: cindysphynx at home.com (cindysphynx)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 16:54:02 -0000
Subject: Let's storm the movie list!
In-Reply-To: <a4r8qf+epcl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a4rbja+q0bj@eGroups.com>

Amy wrote:

> This has gone far enough!  How long are we going to allow ourselves 
to 
> be held hostage by the Sean-droolers, the deranged DRIFTIES, the 
> AlanSchnooglers, the Williams worshippers*?  It's an HPfGU 
> list, damn it, and none of us should fear to enter.  Besides, I'm a 
> contrarian.  If a conversation is all going one way I have a 
> compulsion to throw in my monkey wrench.
> 

OK, I'm in, Captain.  Hmmm.  There's so much material.  Maybe I'll do 
a little riff on how I fully expect the CoS movie to bomb at the box-
office, boldly calling for a boycott.  Yes, that oughtta stir things 
up.

Troublemaker!Cindy




From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Mon Feb 18 20:49:12 2002
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 20:49:12 -0000
Subject: Being boring, birthday Betty
In-Reply-To: <01be01c1b79c$96eed420$633570c2@c5s910j>
Message-ID: <a4rpc8+8b5a@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "Neil Ward" <neilward at d...> wrote:

> I think it's my speaking voice, which is not only very soft, but 
has all the tonal variety of a gently humming fridge.
> 
Enter Arthur Weasley: You have a refrigeralator?  And it *hums*?  How 
*fascinating*!  I collect humming machinery, you know.  I find the 
vibrations so *stimulating*!
> 
> David is far from boring, by the way.  I call him 'Interesting' 
Dave.

Hm. Reminds me of Peter Cook.  And Chinese proverbs.

Birthday Betty:
>Now, you two--this year, you behave yourselves. If I get one more owl
telling me you've--you've blown up a toilet or--"
"Blown up a toilet? We've never blown up a toilet.
"Great idea, though, Thanks, mom." 
Molly, Fred and George Weasley: Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone,
chapter 6

and Amy:
>I hope it's been a lovely day for my sister collector of funny HP 
quotes.

Belated Happy Birthday, Betty.

Do you know, I found a joke I'd never seen before, in GOF.  It's just 
after Moody's first lesson and they are discussing him, and Ron says 
something like "He's a bit paranoid though", looking nervously over 
his shoulder.

All right, you all got that the first time.  Never mind.

David




From virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 18 21:07:52 2002
From: virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com (virtualworldofhp)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 21:07:52 -0000
Subject: Elimating Non-Sports (WAS Defending ice dancing, the ISU and judging)
In-Reply-To: <a4pt5b+erdg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a4rqf8+igfk@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "cindysphynx" <cindysphynx at h...> wrote: 
> Figure skating (even ice dancing) is probably here to stay.  So maybe 
> they will make one small reform for me.  I'd like to see a round 
> called "Costume Approval."  Men would be directed to steer away from 
> the flashy, sequin-covered outfits that have become way too popular.  
> Rolled up sleeves are good and will receive higher marks from the 
> judges; plunging necklines will generate substantial deductions.  
> Under this system, Alexi Urmanov, who wore the Puffy Shirt from 
> Seinfeld, would have been sent home before he ever set foot on the 
> ice.  

Amen!  Is it just me, or do the costumes get uglier every year?

> 
> I hear they are considering Trampoline as a Summer event.  I suppose 
> they will slot it in the Circus Act division, right up there with 
> Rhythm Gymnastics.  I understand that there is actually something 
> called "Synchronized Skating."  I'm not sure I want to know what that 
> is.

Actually, Trampoline *IS* an Olympic sport--there was a competition in
the 2000 Sydney Games.

-Megan




From Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com  Mon Feb 18 21:58:58 2002
From: Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com (Aberforth's Goat)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 22:58:58 +0100
Subject: Boring Olympians - Champion Talkers
References: <a4rbel+l8e9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <02db01c1b8c7$77f01530$0200a8c0@shasta>

OLYMPICS

First Amanda "I'd watch 'em" Geist suggested,

> How about having them do the Games in the buff again? It'd sure
boost
> attendance and viewing percentage....

But Cindy "keep your riddles veiled" Sphynx spoke,

> We will also have automatic
> disqualifications for any men sporting chest hair through
plunging
> necklines, and a life-time ban for anyone with a large gold
medallion
> on a gold chain resting on top of their chest hair. [...]

Oh dear, oh dear. I do hope we don't have a flameout brewing here
... Oh well. It's an ill wind that blows *no* good. Perhaps we
*won't* all have to charge over to the movie list for our kicks.

* * * * * * * *

VERBIAGE - FACT AND FICTION

Tabouli talked about the fictional self of the net, as opposed to
the reality of f2f - but also wrote,

> Do you think you, and people in general who
> are given to copious letter/post writing, reveal
> more meaningful things about who they are in
> fiction than in reality?

Well, I've certainly never heard anyone unbosom their deepest
feelings about Tom Bombadil in RL, so the internet has gotta be
*worth* something ...

But seriously: This dichotomy between a "real" self (as expressed
in a oral, visual and physical communication) and "fictional"
self (as expressed in purely verbal communication) sounds like a
deconstructionist's field day. Isn't the "unified self" a social
construct, to some degree an expression of social tyranny? Maybe
*it's* the fictional part - and subversively so, since we always
assume that it's our real, normal self.

Maybe they're both real in some ways, and misleading in others.

Maybe I'm just jealous of the alpha-type socialites.

VERBIAGE - THE JOYS OF ORATORY

As far as public speaking goes, it sounds like I'm weirder than I
thought ... though Amy said something I could fully identify
with:

> Where my fear of public speaking expresses itself is in the
writing
> of whatever I'm going to say in public.  90% of my considerable
> writer's block comes from the fear that I'm going to sound
stupid,
> boring, trite, disorganized, pompous . . . you name it, my
inner
> editor accuses me of it.  I am okay once I get up there, but
the
> process of writing it all down beforehand is fraught with
terror.

Actually, by that standard, I'm freaking *horrified* of public
speaking. I'm physically incapable of just standing there
waffling. In fact, I usually write out my texts to be absolutely
sure that I won't get lost - and I regularly spend entire nights
writing. (I blame it on working in my third language, but I think
that's actually just a handy excuse.) (As for laziness - err,
actually, never mind.)

>From that standpoint, I don't see much difference between acting
and public speaking - except that in public speaking you get to
make up your own script. I suppose that's also why I don't feel
much difference between (my sort of) public speaking and online
conversation. In either case, the problem is getting a script
written. Everything else is just delivery ...

Baaaaaa!

Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray)
_______________________

"Of course, I'm not entirely sure he can read, so that
may not have been bravery...."



_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From michelleapostolides at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Feb 18 22:50:12 2002
From: michelleapostolides at yahoo.co.uk (Michelle Apostolides)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 22:50:12 -0000
Subject: Speaking of talking......
References: <a4rbel+l8e9@eGroups.com> <02db01c1b8c7$77f01530$0200a8c0@shasta>
Message-ID: <002001c1b8ce$9fef04e0$d9fc883e@Michelle>

I've snipped off Mike's fascinating message about his speech writing process not because it isn't relevant to what I need to say, more that it fascinated me so much that I need to get my thoughts in order. 

Firstly, you need to know something of my background. 

After I was born, my mum was told that I had cerebral palsy and would therefore be unlikely to amount to very much in life because of the brain damage. GCSEs, A Levels, an Honours degree and a postgrad in translation later, here I am.  

I didn't find out I had CP until my mum had to tell our new GP when I was about 12. Not a biggie, I just got on with my life knowing that I had more than just wobbly legs and a dodgy eye. 

So, about three years later I got the mother of all headaches, which prompted a CT scan or something like that. The results of that were surprising, because the grey areas where the brain damage seemed to have occurred were the areas that mainly affect speech and language - I speak fluent French and German and can get by in Dutch and Italian. 

The point being that all my life I have never been afraid to speak to an audience - I organised debating and participated in debating competitions at school and at University,  I was student rep in my final year and loved it. When my Grandad died last November, I gave the eulogy. My mum says that I was interested in reading and newspapers since I could grab things. 

I don't understand it, but I wonder if fear of pubilc speaking is as much psychological as anything. It never bothers me, so I must be missing the fear part of it in my brain !

Michelle 









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From blpurdom at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 18 22:54:45 2002
From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 22:54:45 -0000
Subject: Let's storm the movie list!/Ice Dancing
In-Reply-To: <a4rbja+q0bj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a4s0nl+gn6t@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "cindysphynx" <cindysphynx at h...> wrote:
> Amy wrote:
> 
> > This has gone far enough!  How long are we going to allow 
> > ourselves to be held hostage by the Sean-droolers, the deranged 
> > DRIFTIES, the AlanSchnooglers, the Williams worshippers*?  It's 
> > an HPfGU list, damn it, and none of us should fear to enter.  
> > Besides, I'm a contrarian.  If a conversation is all going one 
> > way I have a compulsion to throw in my monkey wrench.

I posted an early review of the movie lambasting Emma Watson's 
performance and Chris Columbus' direction.  I never felt a 
compulsion to just "go along" with the crowd, although I did start 
feeling a certain ennui about the Movie list when it became All Sean!
All the time! (For the record: I think Sean Biggerstaff is a 
remarkable young actor, loved him in "The Winter Guest" and I hope 
to see Gary Hollywood, a fellow cast member in that film, in a 
future HP film as a Weasley brother--maybe Charlie).

> OK, I'm in, Captain.  Hmmm.  There's so much material.  Maybe I'll 
> do a little riff on how I fully expect the CoS movie to bomb at 
> the box-office, boldly calling for a boycott.  Yes, that oughtta 
> stir things up.

LOL!  You're such a troublemaker, Cindy.  But I do know many HP fans 
who have no interest in ever seeing a film version of any of the 
books because they don't want it messing with what they see in their 
heads.  They'd probably be appalled by the idea of fanfiction, and I 
NEVER bring it up with them that I write it!  

I actually have higher hopes for the CoS film than the first one 
because a) It won't have to have a different title in the US and the 
UK; b) it will have Kenneth Branagh playing Gilderoy Lockhart, who 
is a HOOT; c) Emma Watson may have time to get some acting lessons 
(:snerk:) d) characters like Penelope Clearwater, Justin Finch-
Fletchley, Tom Riddle, Lucius Malfoy, Aragog, Peeves and Moaning 
Myrtle will be introduced, making things more interesting (one can 
hope; I was disappointed by the fact that Hermione's female 
dormmates were never introduced, and that Dean and Neville got short 
shrift in favor of Seamus' non-canon explosions); e) we get to see 
the Burrow, the Flying Ford Anglia, Knockturn Alley and Myrtle's 
bathroom.  Plus f) we'll be that much closer to the film of PoA 
becoming a reality, which is what I'm REALLY waiting for 
(Sirius/Remus)....
 
> Figure skating (even ice dancing) is probably here to stay. So 
> maybe they will make one small reform for me. I'd like to see a 
> round called "Costume Approval." Men would be directed to steer 
> away from the flashy, sequin-covered outfits that have become way 
> too popular. Rolled up sleeves are good and will receive higher 
> marks from the judges; plunging necklines will generate 
> substantial deductions. Under this system, Alexi Urmanov, who wore 
> the Puffy Shirt from Seinfeld, would have been sent home before he 
> ever set foot on the ice. 

ROTFL!  (I loved the Puffy Shirt episode.)  Ice dancing looks to me 
more and more like ballroom dancing on ice.  My husband said last 
night how amazing it was that they could do all that on skates; my 
response was that I was amazed at the things ballroom dancers could 
do WITHOUT being on skates!  (I loved "Strictly Ballroom!")

> I hear they are considering Trampoline as a Summer event. I 
> suppose they will slot it in the Circus Act division, right up 
> there with Rhythm Gymnastics. I understand that there is actually 
> something called "Synchronized Skating." I'm not sure I want to 
> know what that is.

Okay, now I'm getting flashbacks to the mockumentary they made on 
Saturday Night Live years ago with Christopher Guest and Martin 
Short as male synchronized swimmers.  Still one of the funniest 
things I have EVER seen...

--Barb
(whose kids probably think she's certifiable for sitting at the 
computer cracking up, saying, "I know you!  I know you!")





From moongirlk at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 18 23:05:58 2002
From: moongirlk at yahoo.com (moongirlk)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 23:05:58 -0000
Subject: All the olympics stuff
In-Reply-To: <a4rbel+l8e9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a4s1cm+i50m@eGroups.com>

Re: short-track skating:

Speed skating and figure skating have the same governing body.  I 
hear there used to be a way to contest the rulings on short-track, 
but the ISU got rid of that, so now Ohno and the others have no 
recourse.  I guess for Ohno it's not so bad - a silver medal's 
nothing to sneeze at and he's got three other races to win gold in, 
but the concept just gives me one more reason to think that maybe the 
whole ISU (and not just the figure skating judging system) ought to 
be reworked.  

Back to figure skating, I said:

> >So while we're at it, could we penalize 
> > excess makeup, sparkly things on people's faces, women's costumes 
> > that ride up, unitards (or anything that's more like tights than 
> > pants) for men, and any costume that either has random whispy 
bits hanging off of it or cannot be easily explained by the theme of 
the music?  Yes - a taste requirement! 

Cindy replied enthusiastically, among other things...

> We will have a special 3-day clinic to straighten out Surya 
>Bonaly. 

Ah - how cunning you are!  You saw through my attempt at being subtle 
and knew that the first 3 of my requests all referred to the same 
person!
That girl's got some serious taste issues.  Now, don't get me wrong, 
I admire her strenght and athleticism and downright boldness (and 
think she should be allowed to do the back-flip in eligible 
competition, since she *can* land it on one foot), but... if anybody 
ever needed a personal shopper or an image consultant or something, 
it's Surya.

Cindy would also like to take my rule a step further, saying:

>We will have an equal opportunity ban on unitards, as 
> Debbie Thomas wore won in the Olympics for reasons that cannot be 
> explained.

I can go with that if we make a special dispensation allowing that 
cute black costume of Sarah Hughes' that I would wear myself if I 
were built like her, and could skate, and somehow got entered into a 
competition in front of people (which would have to happen against my 
will).  It's all one piece, but it's *cute*, so I don't think it 
should count as a unitard, which are almost by definition *not cute*, 
or at least embarrassing.

I am in agreement on the ucky flesh-toned pretend-naked fabric, and 
would like to add that if a costume requires such fabric to avoid 
falling down, it should be considered off-limits, and the skater in 
question submitted to intense scrutiny by the taste judges for the 
next several competitions.  I would also submit that the base-score 
should start higher for skaters who wear clothing that resembles 
something that a sane person (for my purposes I exclude those who, 
while otherwise functional members of society, believe themselves to 
be Napoleon, a matador, or a butterfly) might on some occasion wear 
in public.

kimberly
who really will shut up about skating, at least for the rest of the 
evening.




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Mon Feb 18 23:10:10 2002
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (lupinesque)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 23:10:10 -0000
Subject: Being boring, birthday Betty
In-Reply-To: <a4rpc8+8b5a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a4s1ki+mjlo@eGroups.com>

Interesting Dave wrote:
 
> Hm. Reminds me of Peter Cook.  And Chinese proverbs.

OK, the Chinese proverb reference I get, but not Peter Cook.  (I mean, 
I know who he is--very funny man IMO--but not the connection.)  
Explain?

> Do you know, I found a joke I'd never seen before, in GOF.  It's 
just 
> after Moody's first lesson and they are discussing him, and Ron says 
> something like "He's a bit paranoid though", looking nervously over 
> his shoulder.
> 
> All right, you all got that the first time.  Never mind.

Nope, I didn't!  Not the first time or the subsequent 8.  Page, 
please?  I could add it to my sigs.

Amy




From jdumas at kingwoodcable.com  Mon Feb 18 23:20:13 2002
From: jdumas at kingwoodcable.com (Katze)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 17:20:13 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Let's storm the movie list!/Ice Dancing
References: <a4s0nl+gn6t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3C718C2D.BBFCB3C4@kingwoodcable.com>

blpurdom wrote:

> I actually have higher hopes for the CoS film than the first one
> because a) It won't have to have a different title in the US and the
> UK; b) it will have Kenneth Branagh playing Gilderoy Lockhart, who
> is a HOOT; c) Emma Watson may have time to get some acting lessons
> (:snerk:) d) characters like Penelope Clearwater, Justin Finch-
> Fletchley, Tom Riddle, Lucius Malfoy, Aragog, Peeves and Moaning
> Myrtle will be introduced, making things more interesting (one can
> hope; I was disappointed by the fact that Hermione's female
> dormmates were never introduced, and that Dean and Neville got short
> shrift in favor of Seamus' non-canon explosions); e) we get to see
> the Burrow, the Flying Ford Anglia, Knockturn Alley and Myrtle's
> bathroom.  Plus f) we'll be that much closer to the film of PoA
> becoming a reality, which is what I'm REALLY waiting for
> (Sirius/Remus)....

I'm not expecting much for CoS. I'll watch and hope it's good, but I
have my doubts. My main doubt comes from Warner not using the talents of
Henson for Dobby, but instead making him a CGI character. Ack. Anyone
ever hear of Jar Jar Binks? Yuck! 

I do think that they'll make Aragog and the Spiders puppets though...for
some reason I'm envisioning the spiders in The Dark Crystal, though they
probably isn't close to what they look like (they actually probably look
like real spiders). 

I believe we'll hear mention of Penelope, and see the photos, but will
not see a real live character. Same with Justin (or did he have a
crucial part in the book?). I'm looking forward to Brannagh as
Lockhart...he will be fabulous...he'll be in his element. I'm looking
forward to the Burrow and Knockturn Alley. 

I agree with Barb, that I'm REALLY waiting for PoA, which I think is
going to be excellent! GoF is going to be a feat, if they decide to go
forward with the rest of the movies. I would think they'd almost have to
continue the rest of the movies if they go forward with PoA (which is
already listed on IMDB). If they weren't sure whether or not the rest of
the movie are going to work out, they'd have an awful lot of script
munching to do to make it a realistic finale (not to mention trying to
drag the end of series secret out from Rowling).

Hrmmm...this seems more appropriate for the Movie list...perhaps I'll
post this there too.
-Katze



From pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no  Mon Feb 18 23:25:20 2002
From: pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no (pengolodh_sc)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 23:25:20 -0000
Subject: Let's storm the movie list!/Ice Dancing
In-Reply-To: <3C718C2D.BBFCB3C4@kingwoodcable.com>
Message-ID: <a4s2h0+hdr1@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter, Katze wrote:

[snip]

> I believe we'll hear mention of Penelope, and see the photos,
> but will not see a real live character. Same with Justin (or
> did he have a crucial part in the book?). 

Well, the initial source of Harry's estrangement from the majority of 
his fellow students was Justin Finch-Fletchley's witnessing Harry's 
parsel-tongue ability.  It is my belief that cutting justin Finch-
Fletchley from the movie requires more of a hassle (in rewriting that 
plot-element) than it is worth.

Best regards
Christian Stub?




From meboriqua at aol.com  Tue Feb 19 00:34:28 2002
From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 00:34:28 -0000
Subject: Favorite Saturday Night Live Skits
In-Reply-To: <a4s0nl+gn6t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a4s6ik+sbgg@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "blpurdom" <blpurdom at y...> wrote:
 
> Okay, now I'm getting flashbacks to the mockumentary they made on 
> Saturday Night Live years ago with Christopher Guest and Martin 
> Short as male synchronized swimmers.  Still one of the funniest 
> things I have EVER seen...
> 
> --Barb
> (whose kids probably think she's certifiable for sitting at the 
> computer cracking up, saying, "I know you!  I know you!")>

Wow.  I *still* quote from that skit, and I can't remember the last 
time I've seen it.  Christopher Guest is, IMO, a genius and I adored 
him when he did the news, in _Spinal Tap_, and in _The Princess 
Bride_.

What other skits do people laugh out loud just thinking about?  I'd 
have to go with "Mr. Robinson's Neighborhood" (where he tells the 
"kids" how to use the word 'bitch'), and definitely Buckwheat's 
Greatest Hits, particularly "Wookin' Pa Nub" (or however it was 
written).  I'm sure there are others, but I just can't remember.

--jenny from ravenclaw ****************************************




From UcfRentLuvr at cs.com  Tue Feb 19 00:46:16 2002
From: UcfRentLuvr at cs.com (UcfRentLuvr at cs.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 19:46:16 -0500
Subject: Favorite Saturday Night Live Skits
Message-ID: <0FA5DC2A.7DEBE3CC.52A758FC@cs.com>

Jenny from Ravenclaw said: 
>What other skits do people laugh out loud just thinking about?>>

Well, this isn't really "thinking about" as it is talking about. :)  I'm a member of this Cinema committee at my university and we share our office with a bunch of other committees but that doesn't matter because we're all friends. Anyways, one of the skits everyone likes to imitate is teh "I'm Brian Fellows" skit. It's a more recent one actually and Brian Fellows is done by Tracey Morgan. It always gets me laughing because some of the people can imitate him so well. 

"I'm Brian Fellows...Let's take a look at this donkey here."
"That's not a donkey. It's a dog."
"Ew-wee, that's an evil donkey. He's giving me the evil eye."

Well, I guess you just have to see it. :)

***Dixie Malfoy***




From andrew_macian at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 19 00:46:22 2002
From: andrew_macian at yahoo.com (Andrew MacIan)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 16:46:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Favorite Saturday Night Live Skits
In-Reply-To: <a4s6ik+sbgg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20020219004622.45715.qmail@web9501.mail.yahoo.com>

Greetings from Andrew!

"It's 106 miles to Chicago...."
--- jenny_ravenclaw <meboriqua at aol.com> wrote:
{snip}

> What other skits do people laugh out loud just
> thinking about?  I'd 
> have to go with "Mr. Robinson's Neighborhood" (where
> he tells the 
> "kids" how to use the word 'bitch'), and definitely
> Buckwheat's 
> Greatest Hits, particularly "Wookin' Pa Nub" (or
> however it was 
> written).  I'm sure there are others, but I just
> can't remember.

Samurai Dry Cleaner

Killer Bees

Landshark

"Cheesebuger/Pepsi"

Any of the Al Franken donation pitches

And of course, the Blues Brothers


Ah, sweet memories...

Cheers,

Drieux

=====
ICQ # 76184391

'Each game of chess means there's one less
      Variation left to be played;
 Each day got through means one or two less
      Mistakes remain to be made.'
      --'Chess' by Sir Tim Rice

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games
http://sports.yahoo.com



From devin.smither at yale.edu  Tue Feb 19 02:51:39 2002
From: devin.smither at yale.edu (uilnslcoap)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 02:51:39 -0000
Subject: Rupert/Dylan/dancing movies/Blues Brothers
Message-ID: <a4sejr+4n1r@eGroups.com>

So, then...Naama, yes, I agree completely with you.  I happen to not 
think very highly of the movie, but I adored Grint's performance.  He 
was an island of true hilarity and characterization in an ocean of 
wretchedness, particularly Emma Watson...I'd like to meet the girl 
who could play Hermione less as I envisioned her.  She seemed more of 
a whiny little prat than a somewhat uptight girl who was really very 
nice underneath that part of herself.  Long live Hermione from the 
books, down with Watson's portrayal!  Rupert was great, though.  Made 
some really great faces, managed to seem really BRAVE in his chess 
scene, and was just the right kind of goofy-looking-but-cute that I 
pictured as Ron (if not distinctly tall and long-nosed enough).  He 
was great, outshone many of the adults, actually.  I particularly was 
disappointed in Richard Harris.  He completely lost the twinkle of 
Dumbledore, that really sweet bit ("Nitwit!  Blubber!  Oddment!  
Tweak!").  He just struck me as sage and grandfatherly without the 
spriteliness I see in Rowling's Dumbledore...and don't get me started 
on Williams's score.  Star Wars, Superman, Jaws, (Back to the 
Future?  was that Williams?  that theme is really good whoever it 
was) and Close Encounters were great musically.  What happened?

Barb, you should see this Japanese (I'm pretty sure it was Japanese, 
anyone care to verify/correct me?) film called "Shall We Dance?".  
You would love it.  I did anyway.  It's about ballroom dancing as 
well.

To the Dylan quoter, whom I apologize to for not checking on your 
name right now...that seems a very relevant quote to bring out every 
time the SHIP arguments come out and get heavy.  Sort of sounds like 
"Don't matter what you think or fight about, 'cause it'll all be 
settled by Rowling anyway" in this context.  I'm ashamed to say I 
don't know enough about Dylan at all.  I only have Blonde on Blonde, 
Blood on the Tracks, and Time Out of Mind right now.  There's just 
too much music out there for me to be able to pursue everything I 
know.  Which album is "When the Ship Comes In" on?  Maybe I'll try 
and make a filk with that theme to the tune of "When the Levee 
Breaks" (mmmmm, Led Zeppelin).

Oh my goodness, Andrew, that is creepy.  My roommate's name is 
Andrew, he occasionally signs himself as "Drieux" and he adores the 
Blues Brothers.  I must say, I see a lot of where you and he are 
coming from, but I think the movie has some pretty large flaws, and 
is not the work of genius that you two probably think it is.  Still, 
just for you, "It's 106 miles to Chicago, we've got a full tank of 
gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark, and we're wearing 
sunglasses."......."Hit it."  No matter what I think of a lot of that 
movie, that bit is classic.

Devin, who is posting to OT-Chatter for the first time




From NOTaMuggleFamily at aol.com  Tue Feb 19 02:54:24 2002
From: NOTaMuggleFamily at aol.com (NOTaMuggleFamily at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 21:54:24 EST
Subject: Let's storm the movie list!
Message-ID: <121.c3a61ec.29a31860@aol.com>


Hear Hear!!  I think Lucius is the sexiest guy in the HP world...Snape a 
close tie!  Of course, I'm nearing 40 so I like those bad older guys...can't 
wait to see the next movie!
~shahara in wi
off to re-join that movie list, lol
(and off to finally finish that fanfic with the bodovem:::sigh:::)


<< blpurdom wrote:


> I actually have higher hopes for the CoS film than the first one

> because a) It won't have to have a different title in the US and the

> UK; b) it will have Kenneth Branagh playing Gilderoy Lockhart, who

> is a HOOT; c) Emma Watson may have time to get some acting lessons

> (:snerk:) d) characters like Penelope Clearwater, Justin Finch-

> Fletchley, Tom Riddle, Lucius Malfoy, >>



shahara lefay
pagan priestess 
**serendipitously smitten with severus snape**



From golden_faile at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 19 03:35:46 2002
From: golden_faile at yahoo.com (golden faile)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 19:35:46 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Favorite Saturday Night Live Skits
In-Reply-To: <a4s6ik+sbgg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20020219033546.53955.qmail@web14610.mail.yahoo.com>


My favorites are;

1.) Mr. Robinson's Neighborhood

2.) Eddie Murphy's James Brown Hot tub skit

3.) The perfect Cheer (with the geek cheerleaders)

4.) The disco dudes

5.) Any MANGO skit

Laila

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games
http://sports.yahoo.com



From andrew_macian at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 19 03:20:34 2002
From: andrew_macian at yahoo.com (Andrew MacIan)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 19:20:34 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Rupert/Dylan/dancing movies/Blues Brothers
In-Reply-To: <a4sejr+4n1r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20020219032034.14675.qmail@web9507.mail.yahoo.com>

Greetings from Andrew!

"Lotta space in this mall..."

--- uilnslcoap <devin.smither at yale.edu> wrote:
{snip}

> on Williams's score.  Star Wars, Superman, Jaws,
> (Back to the 
> Future?  was that Williams?  that theme is really
> good whoever it 
> was) and Close Encounters were great musically. 
> What happened?
> 

Rush job, IMO.  After all, he had the music for the
Olympics to get done -and- the score for Episode II. 
I only caught on that it was Williams near the end of
the film, and then only because of the similarity of
the score to that of Episode IV.

BTW, does the Olympic theme strike you as being
terribly familiar?  If so, think about Handel's
'Messiah'....

> Barb, you should see this Japanese (I'm pretty sure
> it was Japanese, 
> anyone care to verify/correct me?) film called
> "Shall We Dance?".  
> You would love it.  I did anyway.  It's about
> ballroom dancing as 
> well.

Not to mention a *lot* of Japanese social taboos.

{snip}

> 
> Oh my goodness, Andrew, that is creepy.  My
> roommate's name is 
> Andrew, he occasionally signs himself as "Drieux"
> and he adores the 
> Blues Brothers.

Ermm...so long as he doesn't use 'Drieux, just Drieux'
in newsgroups, I'll humbly accept the flattery {cheesy
grin}.

Did/does he have a Creole girl as a lover as well? 
(Which is where I got my own variant spelling...)

>  I must say, I see a lot of where
> you and he are 
> coming from, but I think the movie has some pretty
> large flaws, and 
> is not the work of genius that you two probably
> think it is. 

Oh...from a filmatic perspective, it's probably
terrible.  However, being a blues fan, I watch it for
both the sight gags/puns as well as the music.  This
holds even more true for the wretched sequel.  I would
have been much happier if they had simply given us 2+
hours of the various folks just jammin'.  I mean
Clapton, BB King, Hooker...wow!

 
> Still, 
> just for you, "It's 106 miles to Chicago, we've got
> a full tank of 
> gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark, and we're
> wearing 
> sunglasses."......."Hit it."  No matter what I think
> of a lot of that 
> movie, that bit is classic.

Not to mention the one line near the end:

'Excessive force has been approved in the capture of
the Blues Brothers.'
> 
> Devin, who is posting to OT-Chatter for the first
> time

Welcome!

Cheers,

Drieux

=====
ICQ # 76184391

'Each game of chess means there's one less
      Variation left to be played;
 Each day got through means one or two less
      Mistakes remain to be made.'
      --'Chess' by Sir Tim Rice

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games
http://sports.yahoo.com



From jdumas at kingwoodcable.com  Tue Feb 19 04:24:51 2002
From: jdumas at kingwoodcable.com (Katze)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 22:24:51 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Let's storm the movie list!/Ice Dancing
References: <a4s2h0+hdr1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3C71D393.C86415DF@kingwoodcable.com>

pengolodh_sc wrote:
> 
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter, Katze wrote:
> 
> [snip]
> 
> > I believe we'll hear mention of Penelope, and see the photos,
> > but will not see a real live character. Same with Justin (or
> > did he have a crucial part in the book?).
> 
> Well, the initial source of Harry's estrangement from the majority of
> his fellow students was Justin Finch-Fletchley's witnessing Harry's
> parsel-tongue ability.  It is my belief that cutting justin Finch-
> Fletchley from the movie requires more of a hassle (in rewriting that
> plot-element) than it is worth.
> 

Doh! You are correct...I completely forgot the importance of him.
Perhaps it's time for a re-read of the book. Though I think I might wait
until I know the release date of the new book to do a re-read of any of
the books.

-Katze



From andrew_macian at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 19 04:37:04 2002
From: andrew_macian at yahoo.com (Andrew MacIan)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 20:37:04 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: All the olympics stuff
In-Reply-To: <a4rbel+l8e9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20020219043704.19120.qmail@web9507.mail.yahoo.com>

Greetings from Andrew!

Interesting...most interesting....
--- cindysphynx <cindysphynx at home.com> wrote:
{snip} of description of short-track racing

> 
> If I might be so bold, I think they need to fiddle
> with the short 
> track rules just a bit.  In previous rounds, some
> skaters who fell 
> due to fouls by other skaters were advanced to the
> next round.  Why, 
> then, do they not have a similar remedy in the gold
> medal round?  
> Shouldn't they have a provision for a re-skate when
> a gold medal is 
> at stake?

IIRC the commentary from that race, there was the
probability of a re-skate of the finals, but the
judges looked at the tape and saw what we did:  The
Aussie slipping through to take first; Ohno sprawling
across the line followed by the Canadian doing much
the same. Thus, the medals are won, if not the way
we-- not to mention the racers!-- wanted them to be.

As for the danger...it's just practise for Rollerball.
 I don't see a problem!

{evil smile}

Cheers,

Drieux


=====
ICQ # 76184391

'Each game of chess means there's one less
      Variation left to be played;
 Each day got through means one or two less
      Mistakes remain to be made.'
      --'Chess' by Sir Tim Rice

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games
http://sports.yahoo.com



From andrew_macian at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 19 04:52:46 2002
From: andrew_macian at yahoo.com (Andrew MacIan)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 20:52:46 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Elimating Non-Sports (WAS Defending ice dancing, the ISU and judging)
In-Reply-To: <a4pt5b+erdg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20020219045246.57715.qmail@web9504.mail.yahoo.com>

Greetings from Andrew!

"Judge me by my size, do you?"

--- cindysphynx <cindysphynx at home.com> wrote:
> Andrew wrote:
> 
> > Let me take a step or six back and offer a rather
> > radical proposal:  Any 'sport' that requires
> external
> > judging, where that judging awards/affects points
> > should NOT be an Olympic sport.  That they are
> > athletic in nature is a given.  But when the
> > subjective nature of the judging is integral to
> the
> > placements of the finishers, then the contest is
> not
> > only between the open competitors but also
> > amongst/between the judges...and the nations the
> > judges really represent.
> 
> Hold on there! :-)
> 

Oh...OK!

> Diving and gymnastics can stay, can't they?  Those
> are *real 
> sports.*  Actually, gymnasts aren't even regular
> athletes.  They are 
> like space aliens who lack proper bones or
> something.  We *can't* 
> toss them out of the Olympics.  Besides, we short
> people have to have 
> a few sports where we excel, right?  :-)

As you wish....

As for short folks, the best (or from my perspective,
worst!) fencer I ever faced was about 4'9" or so; she
had next to *zero* target for me to find.  This was
sabre, and the only way I ever scored on her was with
point...never edge.  Also the world's strongest man
(the Olympic champion in middleweight division) is
only about 5'3" or so, and he lifts about three times
his own body-mass.

> 
> Yes, there is some subjectivity.  But both sports
> have done a number 
> of things to reduce the subjectivity.  Gymnastics
> (unlike figure 
> skating) has a rigid point code.  Certain moves are
> worth a certain 
> amount, so an easy routine starts with a lower base
> mark than a hard 
> routine, and there is much less room for judges to
> cheat.  Diving has 
> the degree of difficulty (and the tell-tale splash),
> which serves the 
> same function.

Yes, but...{grin}.  There's too much potential for
'eye of the beholder' in subjective sports, no matter
the form factor IMO.  However, the points you make are
also the ones that seem to be prevailing in the ISU's
collective (not to say alleged!) mind at the moment. 
Perhaps this will save the credibility of the sport.
  
> 
> Figure skating (even ice dancing) is probably here
> to stay.  So maybe 
> they will make one small reform for me.  I'd like to
> see a round 
> called "Costume Approval."  Men would be directed to
> steer away from 
> the flashy, sequin-covered outfits that have become
> way too popular.  
> Rolled up sleeves are good and will receive higher
> marks from the 
> judges; plunging necklines will generate substantial
> deductions.  
> Under this system, Alexi Urmanov, who wore the Puffy
> Shirt from 
> Seinfeld, would have been sent home before he ever
> set foot on the 
> ice. 

{laughter}  Sometime, ask an SCA membner about the not
entirely mythical Mistress Laurel Seamchecker!
 
> 
> I hear they are considering Trampoline as a Summer
> event.  I suppose 
> they will slot it in the Circus Act division, right
> up there with 
> Rhythm Gymnastics.  I understand that there is
> actually something 
> called "Synchronized Skating."  I'm not sure I want
> to know what that 
> is.

{sigh} We live in degenerate times, Cindy.  What can I
say?

> 
> Cindy (who thinks that the fact that a male ice
> dancer wound up with 
> lipstick on his nose after his original dance speaks
> for itself)

And after the one pair totally slaughtered Bizet, I
turned off the TV....

Cheers,

Drieux


=====
ICQ # 76184391

'Each game of chess means there's one less
      Variation left to be played;
 Each day got through means one or two less
      Mistakes remain to be made.'
      --'Chess' by Sir Tim Rice

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games
http://sports.yahoo.com



From jdumas at kingwoodcable.com  Tue Feb 19 05:09:21 2002
From: jdumas at kingwoodcable.com (Katze)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 23:09:21 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Elimating Non-Sports (WAS Defending ice 
 dancing, the ISU and judging)
References: <20020219045246.57715.qmail@web9504.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3C71DE01.FE748F4C@kingwoodcable.com>

Various bits and pieces from other emails:
> > Diving and gymnastics can stay, can't they?  Those
> > are *real
> > sports.*  Actually, gymnasts aren't even regular
> > athletes.  They are
> > like space aliens who lack proper bones or
> > something.  We *can't*
> > toss them out of the Olympics.  Besides, we short
> > people have to have
> > a few sports where we excel, right?  :-)
<snip>
> >
> > I hear they are considering Trampoline as a Summer
> > event.  I suppose
> > they will slot it in the Circus Act division, right
> > up there with
> > Rhythm Gymnastics.  I understand that there is
> > actually something
> > called "Synchronized Skating."  I'm not sure I want
> > to know what that
> > is.
> 

They aren't considering....

Trampoline *IS* a summer Olympics sport. It debuted in the last Summer
games. They only showed three trampoline routines though. I consider
Trampoline more like Diving, which I do consider a sport. LOTS of
competition in that, though it can be subjective like the ice skating,
but not as extreme.

I was listening to the radio the other day and someone suggested that
they need to revamp the Ice Skating and make a like Horse racing. A
steeple race on ice! Now there's a sport!

-Katze (who actually really enjoy the ice skating section of the
Olympics, minus the ice dancing)



From andrew_macian at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 19 05:04:27 2002
From: andrew_macian at yahoo.com (Andrew MacIan)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 21:04:27 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Olympic purity, was lotsa stuff (Personal Greetings / Olympics / Boring / Shy)
In-Reply-To: <002601c1b7e9$446de400$d37c63d1@texas.net>
Message-ID: <20020219050427.68388.qmail@web9501.mail.yahoo.com>

Greetings from Andrew!

"I prefer a healthy draft around..."
--- Amanda <editor at texas.net> wrote:
> > Drieux wrote:
> >
> > > Ah, well...nice to think of restoring something
> like the original
> > > purity of the Games, wasn't it?
> >
> Catlady asked
> 
> > Which purity was that? The *real* Olympics (in
> Greece, in worship of
> > the Gods, no snow and ice sports) included events
> in composing paeans
> > and performing epics, if you mean 'free of
> subjective aesthetic
> > judgment'.
> 
> How about having them do the Games in the buff
> again? It'd sure boost
> attendance and viewing percentage....
> 
> --Amanda "I'd watch 'em" Geist

Oof!  I know what heathly whack a sabre blade lands on
a plastron already...and would hate to face that
without the padding.

Not to mention how it feels to lock out a heavy snatch
with, erm, *supports*, let us say.....

Cheers,

Drieux

=====
ICQ # 76184391

'Each game of chess means there's one less
      Variation left to be played;
 Each day got through means one or two less
      Mistakes remain to be made.'
      --'Chess' by Sir Tim Rice

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games
http://sports.yahoo.com



From andrew_macian at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 19 05:08:45 2002
From: andrew_macian at yahoo.com (Andrew MacIan)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 21:08:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] RE: Olympics redux
In-Reply-To: <a4ov08+jd48@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20020219050845.20778.qmail@web9507.mail.yahoo.com>

Greetings from Andrew!

At times, the Old Ways are best....

--- catlady_de_los_angeles <catlady at wicca.net> wrote:
{Snip}
> 
> Drieux wrote:
> 
> > Ah, well...nice to think of restoring something
> like the original 
> > purity of the Games, wasn't it?
> 
> Which purity was that? The *real* Olympics (in
> Greece, in worship of 
> the Gods, no snow and ice sports) included events in
> composing paeans 
> and performing epics, if you mean 'free of
> subjective aesthetic 
> judgment'.

Understood, but the intent, let us say, of the
Original Games was what I was after.

Cheers,

Drieux

=====
ICQ # 76184391

'Each game of chess means there's one less
      Variation left to be played;
 Each day got through means one or two less
      Mistakes remain to be made.'
      --'Chess' by Sir Tim Rice

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games
http://sports.yahoo.com



From andrew_macian at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 19 05:24:57 2002
From: andrew_macian at yahoo.com (Andrew MacIan)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 21:24:57 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Being boring; public speaking
In-Reply-To: <003201c1b7c0$bed2bb90$0200a8c0@shasta>
Message-ID: <20020219052457.21684.qmail@web9507.mail.yahoo.com>

Greetings from Andrew!

"By the end of this term, you will have read...."

--- Aberforth's Goat <Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com>
wrote:
{snip}
> 
> BTW, I'm curious: is the kind of person who hangs
> out on this
> kind of list typically good at acting and public
> speaking but
> rather shy in direct personal conversation??

Well, my usual lecture style is pretty interactive and
is thus pretty spontaneous.  I work from
notes/outlines so that I can tell where the class is
supposed to be, and who much we have left to cover
before the next exam.  In most social situations, I
prefer the small-group-within-a-larger-group dynamic. 
One-to-one is very familiar,since I have pre- and
post-docs to care for/raise {grin}.

Cheers,

Drieux

=====
ICQ # 76184391

'Each game of chess means there's one less
      Variation left to be played;
 Each day got through means one or two less
      Mistakes remain to be made.'
      --'Chess' by Sir Tim Rice

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games
http://sports.yahoo.com



From andrew_macian at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 19 05:36:12 2002
From: andrew_macian at yahoo.com (Andrew MacIan)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 21:36:12 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Long life and calculus
In-Reply-To: <a4mok5+tbmi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20020219053612.70615.qmail@web9501.mail.yahoo.com>

Greetings from Andrew!

"Now take the result of the last integration, then
apply a left-hand limit to the integrand and...."

--- davewitley <dfrankiswork at netscape.net> wrote:
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., Andrew MacIan
> <andrew_macian at y...> wrote:
> > 
> > Reflecting that, after having flatlined in Nam,
> things
> > have been easy by comparison;
> > 
> > Reflecting that, after having given a lecture on
> > calculus that is so watered down that my old
> student
> > house's refectory soup would resemble track lube
> by
> > comaprison, that my non-majors students might just
> be
> > on the edge of grasping a couple of things;
> > 
> > Reflecting that, on balance, I really don't
> understand
> > the point of your question.
> > 
> Point? This is OT-Chatter!

Oh, sorry!  What *was* I thinking?

{grin}

> 
> I just thought that there might be an interesting
> story behind 
> the 'surprisingly long life'.

Just that every day since 72MAY27 (interesting
pseudo-palindrome, no?) has been a bonus, and thus
somewhat of a surprise.  Thirty years on, this is
still true.

> 
> I am an old cynic, so I also think that when people
> dangle phrases 
> like that, they are itching to give the story behind
> them.

Understood.  My cynicism is pretty much set in
ferrocrete as well.  Sorry to disappoint, if I did.

> 
> I am an obliging wide-eyed person who is curious in
> every sense of 
> the word, so I like to give people the satisfaction.
> 
> But, if your life is in fact boring, please accept
> my apologies for 
> maligning it.

Not at all! As Rincewind has frequently observed,
boring is (at times) highly desirable.

However, I don't have the same problem with potatoes
that he seems to have developed {grin}.


> 
> David
> 
> PS I remember that 'given epsilon > 0, we can find a
> delta > 0 such 
> that...' stuff too.  I even think it's interesting.

Bully!  Do anything with it?  I'm mostly an algebraist
these days, category/topos theory and all that....

Cheers,

Drieux


=====
ICQ # 76184391

'Each game of chess means there's one less
      Variation left to be played;
 Each day got through means one or two less
      Mistakes remain to be made.'
      --'Chess' by Sir Tim Rice

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games
http://sports.yahoo.com



From kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk  Tue Feb 19 05:36:59 2002
From: kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk (Kathryn)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 05:36:59 -0000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Elimating Non-Sports (WAS Defending ice dancing, the ISU and judging)
References: <20020219045246.57715.qmail@web9504.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <001a01c1b907$74c40e80$f11786d9@monica>

----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Andrew MacIan 
  To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2002 4:52 AM
  Subject: Re: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Elimating Non-Sports (WAS Defending ice dancing, the ISU and judging)


  Greetings from Andrew!

  "Judge me by my size, do you?"

  --- cindysphynx <cindysphynx at home.com> wrote:
  > Andrew wrote:
  > 
  > Diving and gymnastics can stay, can't they?  Those
  > are *real 
  > sports.*  Actually, gymnasts aren't even regular
  > athletes.  They are 
  > like space aliens who lack proper bones or
  > something.  We *can't* 
  > toss them out of the Olympics.  Besides, we short
  > people have to have 
  > a few sports where we excel, right?  :-)

  As you wish....

  As for short folks, the best (or from my perspective,
  worst!) fencer I ever faced was about 4'9" or so; she
  had next to *zero* target for me to find.  This was
  sabre, and the only way I ever scored on her was with
  point...never edge.  Also the world's strongest man
  (the Olympic champion in middleweight division) is
  only about 5'3" or so, and he lifts about three times
  his own body-mass.

  As a short, and out of practice, fencer myself, I can tell you that providing a smaller target notwithstanding a short fencer generally has to be a lot more skilful and faster than you tall guys to do as well (which is probably why the fencer you fenced was so good, anyone who gets beyond the beginning stage has to be or give up out of frustration). Do you have any idea how annoying it is to be close enough to your opponent that they can hit you without stretching but a full lunge from you still won't hit them?!?  
  And I'm 5'3", I can only imagine how fast your opponent must have been. I'm talking about foil here since they won't let us girls fight sabre, or they wouldn't when I was fencing

  > Figure skating (even ice dancing) is probably here
  > to stay.  So maybe 
  > they will make one small reform for me.  I'd like to
  > see a round 
  > called "Costume Approval."  Men would be directed to
  > steer away from 
  > the flashy, sequin-covered outfits that have become
  > way too popular.  
  > Rolled up sleeves are good and will receive higher
  > marks from the 
  > judges; plunging necklines will generate substantial
  > deductions.  
  > Under this system, Alexi Urmanov, who wore the Puffy
  > Shirt from 
  > Seinfeld, would have been sent home before he ever
  > set foot on the 
  > ice. 

  Actually they do deduct points for inappropriate costumes (apparently), not many though.
  Robin Cousins was mentioning it tonight, also men are forbidden from wearing tights (thank god) and women must wear a skirt
  > 
  K


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From andrew_macian at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 19 05:17:16 2002
From: andrew_macian at yahoo.com (Andrew MacIan)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 21:17:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Defending ice dancing, the ISU and judging
In-Reply-To: <005201c1b7c3$7b7addc0$0200a8c0@shasta>
Message-ID: <20020219051716.69433.qmail@web9501.mail.yahoo.com>

Greetings from Andrew!

"Where the men are men, and...."

--- Aberforth's Goat <Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com>
wrote:
> Andrew took a
> 
> > step or six back
> 
> and contributed
> 
> > a rather radical proposal:
> 
> > Any 'sport' that requires external
> > judging, where that judging awards/affects points
> > should NOT be an Olympic sport.  That they are
> > athletic in nature is a given.  But when the
> > subjective nature of the judging is integral to
> the
> > placements of the finishers, then the contest is
> not
> > only between the open competitors but also
> > amongst/between the judges...and the nations the
> > judges really represent.
> 
> Phew! That's sounds a little tough. No more
> gymnasts, divers or
> ski jumpers? (Actually, no. Scratch ski jumping.
> Switzerland has
> a star or two and they currently have this obscenely
> boring sport
> on TV all the time, and it's driving me crazy, and
> I'm for
> banning it forever.)

{laughter}  Sounds like NASCAR or whatever that is. 
Give me a good Grand Prix/Group 7/F1 race instead...

> 
> Somehow, I think these qualitative sports are simply
> too
> beautiful to chuck, even if they are a pain. I'm not
> sure I could
> imagine caring about the Olympics if all it had left
> were a bunch
> of people running around in circles really fast.

Well, no argument on the esthetics, at all.  However,
we do need to be able to further isolate the skill
from the judging of form, let us say.  Having the
judges sit around the ready room tossing euros for
first place seems a bit more fair that what we've seen
happen with the ISU over the last, what, four? five?
cycles.


> 
> Baaaaaa!

Humbug!

{grin}

Cheers,

Drieux


=====
ICQ # 76184391

'Each game of chess means there's one less
      Variation left to be played;
 Each day got through means one or two less
      Mistakes remain to be made.'
      --'Chess' by Sir Tim Rice

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games
http://sports.yahoo.com



From tabouli at unite.com.au  Tue Feb 19 07:41:07 2002
From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 18:41:07 +1100
Subject: Trophy children
Message-ID: <02c601c1b922$f6fbac80$251dddcb@price>

Rita (from the main list):
> 3) I read the nagging about grades, the gift of first-rate
broomsticks, and several other gifts, as a parent who believes that 
he has the right to own a prize child, a child who is the best at 
everything (Quidditch, grades, attractive appearance, etc) and will 
be admired by all the other parents, and takes out his resentment at 
having been stuck with a less-than-perfect child on the child.<

Indeed 'tis so, as well I know, but knowing this, O Rita, why then do you so dislike "The Silver Metal Lover"??  This is *exactly* what that book is about!  If anything, the "teenage girl wish-fulfilment" bit is a celebration of spoilt-yet-neglected Jane *escaping* her mother's jealousy and empty wealth, and then blossoming!

Hmmm.  Having read quite a bit of Tanith Lee in my time, the rich, nasty, daughter-oppressing mother is a recurring theme.  Sounds like a bit of authorial projection, to me!  Which brings up another age-old question... is all fiction autobiographical??

Tabouli.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From damsel_since_ten at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 19 09:28:46 2002
From: damsel_since_ten at yahoo.com (dismal_sentence)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 09:28:46 -0000
Subject: Aggh!
In-Reply-To: <a33fcd+ml3m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a4t5se+101cr@eGroups.com>

I know I may be repeating things on this board... but *screams at 
friend angrily* 

I tried all your suggestions, instead of listening to happy music, I 
watched Legally Blonde with Reese Witherspoon and it seemed to help til 
I woke up sweating and panting after having a nightmare. 

My friend (same friend of the "Problem" post earlier) thought, through 
webcam, it would be SO funny to show me pictures of a guy who got 
killed via an explosion (let's say he could have listened through his 
ears fine but the rest of his face was...gone), a pair of legs on the 
road from a car accident, and a murdered woman (this I didn't see 
because I was getting sick of her showing me these pictures so I 
covered them up and worked on homework). She said, after showing me 
these pictures, "Have a good night's sleep! ha ha ha!" 

Is she just being malicious to my poor scared self? Right now I'm 
really wishing I can try to shuttle a few hours of sleep in my system 
before I go insane from dancing bloodied legs and no-faced men. 

My point of this post is what is it with people who take pictures of 
dead people for entertainment? I understand if they take pictures of 
crime scenes (The Black Dahlia crime scene is grisly but I slept fine 
after seeing it, p'haps it's black and white photo and from a FAR away 
point) for research purposes or psychoanalytical methods. But 
entertainment is just going too far and it is an exploitation of the 
body. When I saw the first photo I immediately thought of what my 
parents saw during the early 1970's in Northern Ireland. Believe me 
that wasn't pretty

For now I'm going to threaten not to watch her anymore on webcam or get 
IM image connections from her. I'm sick of her showing me grisly death 
scenes without telling me that she's going to show me. I've gotten used 
to Marilyn's dead body already (it's just a headshot, it won't hurt me 
at all). 

S. (wishing her other half was here and snuggling with me in bed) 





From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Tue Feb 19 12:17:21 2002
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 12:17:21 -0000
Subject: The self: The tolerable
In-Reply-To: <002501c1b889$e08aaee0$0f26ddcb@price>
Message-ID: <a4tfoh+edo9@eGroups.com>

Tabouli wrote:
> 
> Ahhh, that ol' vicious circle of insecurity.  All too familiar.  If 
they insult you, they're telling the truth.  If they compliment you, 
they're lying in order to be polite, or manipulative (i.e. they want 
something).  If they reassure you that their compliments are sincere, 
at first you doubt their honesty, and, if they persist and seem 
genuine, their judgment.  

>
There is an unfortunate consequence of this for me, which is that 
when I want to commend or compliment somebody, it comes out back-
handed.  The reasoming is this.

For somebody to say something nice about me must surely be a definite 
question mark over their judgement, so I only really accept it if I 
have independent evidence of the quality of their judgement in other 
areas.  Therefore, if I want to compliment somebody else, I need to 
make it credible by providing supporting evidence of my capacity to 
make the judgement.  In the context, this is most relevantly done by 
commenting in detail on the issues over which I want to make the 
compliment, considering carefully both sides of every argument.  
Since people are rarely so perfect that there is nothing negative at 
all to be found, and the thing comes out as a very lukewarm and mealy-
mouthed endorsement.

It's a bit like surveyor's reports.  You won't ever get a report on a 
property that says it's good: they feel they are not doing their job 
for you as a client unless they have found a few faults to help you 
knock the price down.  So you can tell that a property is a good one 
if there are lots of little nitpicks, because if there really is 
something wrong they will major on that and relegate the other stuff.

David




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 19 12:50:10 2002
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 07:50:10 -0500
Subject: Happy Birthday, Haggridd!
Message-ID: <F176Sp1J106zPpPku04000005a0@hotmail.com>

Today is the birthday of John Kusalavage, a.k.a. Haggridd.  The good doctor 
hasn't been on this list for a while, but he's still busy in the fandom, 
helping many a talented writer birth new fanfics.  You can send him a 
dragon's egg or a handy new blue pencil for his birthday at 
jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com.

Cheers, Haggridd!

The Birthday Elf

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.




From bray.262 at osu.edu  Tue Feb 19 10:00:05 2002
From: bray.262 at osu.edu (Rachel Bray)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 10:00:05 EST5EDT
Subject: Thought this was interesting.....
Message-ID: <A7787679D4@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>

Got this e-mail this morning and thought it was 
interesting:


Mark your calendar. 

Wednesday, 20 February 2002, will be a historic moment
in time. When the 24 hour clock ticks on 8:02 p.m. on 
Wednesday, 20 February 2002, then time, day, month, and 
year will read in perfect symmetry 2002, 2002, 2002. To be 
more precise - 20:02, 20/02. 2002.

A symmetrical pattern has only happened once in the past, a 
little over a thousand years ago. The exact moment was 
10:01 a.m. on 10 January 1001.

This balanced pattern will never happen again.

Rachel Bray
The Ohio State University
Fees, Deposits and Disbursements


Frodo: I wish the ring had never come to me....I wish 
none of this had happened.

Gandalf: So do all who live to see such times, but that 
is not for them to decide.  All we have to decide is 
what to do with the time that is given us.



From blpurdom at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 19 15:10:55 2002
From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 15:10:55 -0000
Subject: Rupert/Dylan/dancing movies/Blues Brothers
In-Reply-To: <20020219032034.14675.qmail@web9507.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <a4tptv+9u98@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., Andrew MacIan <andrew_macian at y...> 
wrote:
> Rush job, IMO.  After all, he had the music for the
> Olympics to get done -and- the score for Episode II. 
> I only caught on that it was Williams near the end of
> the film, and then only because of the similarity of
> the score to that of Episode IV.
> 
> BTW, does the Olympic theme strike you as being
> terribly familiar?  If so, think about Handel's
> 'Messiah'....
 
If Williams likes Handel, maybe the reason why Williams steals from 
HIMSELF more than anyone else is that Handel did the same.  There 
are bits in Messiah from a fundraiser Handel wrote for a foundling 
hospital in London, as well as several Messiah choruses based on 
Italian-language love duets Handel scored years earlier.  (My 
conductor calls these the "duet choruses" because of this.)  OTOH 
and IMO, Handel was stealing much better material than Williams when 
he stole from himself <snerk>....

--Barb
(wishing John Williams and James Horner would retire from doing 
movie scores to give some fresh young composers a chance!)




From ameliagoldfeesh at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 19 16:22:16 2002
From: ameliagoldfeesh at yahoo.com (ameliagoldfeesh)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 16:22:16 -0000
Subject: Dylan/movie list
Message-ID: <a4tu3o+aauf@eGroups.com>

"uilnslcoap" <devin.smither at yale.edu> mentioned my Dylan quoting and 
such.

	Well I mainly quoted it since it had the word ship in it and it 
mentioned being confused. :)   It is from "The Times They Are A-
Changin'" from '64. It sounds like when it comes to his LPs you
picked out some good ones- however I"m biased since I like nearly 
everything he has done.  If you wanted to add to your records I'd 
suggest his "Bootleg Series" from '91 (which isn't really a bootleg
at all-it is authorized).  It is a 3 disc set but I'm sure you could 
get it used for not too much. And I see that "When the Ship Comes In" 
ison it too although it is a slightly different version.
	I got into Dylan when I was 12 or 13...I first saw him in 1990 at 
the Orpheum in Omaha, NE when I was 14.  Since then I've seen him
seven more times I believe, including twice this last year.  Well
I'll be quiet now that I sound a bit obsessed...

	Everyone should go and post in movies- it is too quiet over there.  
We need to get some posting going over there again.  I don't think 
anyone will snap anyone's head off for criticizing the movie- that'll 
just give a movie fan a reason to come back and defend it or agree.  
	
	Before signing off I'd just like to say the reason I've started 
posting recently is because my best friend (who introduced me to HP
in the first place when I teased her in scathing tones about reading
a "little kid's book) accused me of being obsessed.  All I did was ask
to borrow her GoF because I had loaned mine to my mother who lives 
three hours away.  This is the same girl who told me she had qualms 
about loaning her HP books to her parents.  I wanted to reread it
since there is a lot of GoF discussion on the main list and I needed
to refresh my memory (tho I didn't tell her I'm on the mailing list.
She'd think I was really bad off then).  I figured if I'm going to be
damned for being obsessed I might as well start speaking up. :)

A Goldfeesh

	I see people in the park, forgettin' their troubles and woes
	They're drinkin' and dancin', wearin' bright colored clothes
	All the young men with the young women lookin' so good
	Well I'd trade places with any of 'em, in a minute if I could
		Dylan, "Highlands" from "Time Out of Mind"





From witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 19 22:09:52 2002
From: witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com (Wanda Mallett)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 14:09:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Happy Birthday, Haggridd!
In-Reply-To: <F176Sp1J106zPpPku04000005a0@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020219220952.95792.qmail@web13705.mail.yahoo.com>


 
  Amy Z <aiz24 at hotmail.com> wrote: 
Today is the birthday of John Kusalavage, a.k.a. Haggridd.

 

Happy Birthday to you Dr. Kusalavage! May you get all your Birthday Wishes! You are avery hard working man, and this day is special to you! All of us here in the Mallett Family toast you on your day! Hope you got plenty of HP presents!

Schnoogles,

Wanda the Witch of Revere,Massachusetts and Her Very Merry Band of Muggles 100%

 



---------------------------------
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 19 19:22:22 2002
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (lupinesque)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 19:22:22 -0000
Subject: Dylan/movie list
In-Reply-To: <a4tu3o+aauf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a4u8le+mivo@eGroups.com>

Amelia wrote:

I got into Dylan when I was 12 or 13...I first saw him in 1990 at 
> the Orpheum in Omaha, NE when I was 14.  Since then I've seen him
> seven more times I believe, including twice this last year.  Well
> I'll be quiet now that I sound a bit obsessed...

Dylan obsessives unite!  I used to go to several shows running 
whenever he came near where I lived.  Not too many artists are worth 
seeing again and again, 'cause they sing things the same way every 
night (usually darn close to how it sounded on the album) and seldom 
change the set list.  Not so with Dylan, whom you could count on, at 
least when I was following him, to throw in some infrequently-
performed songs and to give the oldies a new twist.

My recommendations, Devin, not that you're asking for them, are 
Street Legal, Infidels, and Oh Mercy.  Stop me now before I add 10 
more.  And I heartily second Amelia's recommendation of the Bootleg 
Series--vol. 3 alone is worth the price.

Amy Z

P.S.  Also search for "Lily, Rosemary and the Jack of Hearts" on the 
main list and you'll find a very very clever filk.

-----------------------------------------------
 Well, God is in His heaven
 And we all want what's His
 But power and greed and corruptible seed
 Seem to be all that there is.
 I'm gazing out the window
 Of the St. James Hotel
 And I know no one can sing the blues
 Like Blind Willie McTell.
               --Dylan, "Blind Willie McTell"
-----------------------------------------------




From jenP_97 at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 20 03:50:16 2002
From: jenP_97 at yahoo.com (jenP_97)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 03:50:16 -0000
Subject: Freaking out over an ice skater...
Message-ID: <a4v6do+oojm@eGroups.com>

Hey, all.  I know, I know, I was one of the "let's throw ice skating 
out of the olympics" people (one of two?  hehehe...), but that doesn't
mean I still don't get really excited when they come on. :)

So tonight, I'm watching the ladies' short programs, and this skater 
from Canada comes up...

Jennifer Robinson.

Okay, so I hope I'm not setting myself up for some stalking or 
something, but this is my maiden name, and it just FREAKED ME OUT to 
hear my name announced on tv.  

Has anyone else had this happen?

I mean, in college, there was a Jennifer Robinson who'd get my mail 
(and once I got a birthday card with a $50 check in it... from 
someone I'd never heard of... yes, I gave it to her), but unless I 
blocked it out of my mind, I've never heard my name on tv before.  
What a strange feeling.

Jen




From catlady at wicca.net  Wed Feb 20 05:02:26 2002
From: catlady at wicca.net (catlady_de_los_angeles)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 05:02:26 -0000
Subject: Trophy children
In-Reply-To: <02c601c1b922$f6fbac80$251dddcb@price>
Message-ID: <a4val2+cplc@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "Tabouli" <tabouli at u...> wrote:

> Indeed 'tis so, as well I know, but knowing this, O Rita, why then 
> do you so dislike "The Silver Metal Lover"?? 

Um. It might be simplest to attribute it to my desperately resentful 
envy of Jane. I moved away from MY mother but I stayed fat. I've had 
lovers but all of them have needed to spend time on things besides 
adulating me.





From sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Feb 20 11:55:24 2002
From: sofie_elisabeth at yahoo.co.uk (sofie_elisabeth)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 11:55:24 -0000
Subject: Freaking out over an ice skater...
In-Reply-To: <a4v6do+oojm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a502rc+ismf@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "jenP_97" <jenP_97 at y...> wrote:
> Has anyone else had this happen?

I've never had my name announced on television but at my sixth Form 
there is another Sophie Campbell, so I get notices for her and I get 
told to go see teachers that don't teach me etc.

And once I was in a shopping centre and I got lost (I was aged 11)and 
my mum got my name announced on the loud speakers. Well when I got to 
the information desk, three other people had turned up. 

Sofie




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Wed Feb 20 13:14:44 2002
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (lupinesque)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 13:14:44 -0000
Subject: Favorite Saturday Night Live Skits
In-Reply-To: <a4s6ik+sbgg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a507g4+e4ie@eGroups.com>

Jenny from Ravenclaw asked:

> What other skits do people laugh out loud just thinking about? 

-Stuart Smalley, esp. the one with Michael Jordan

-The Church Lady on Santa (old man who sits you on his lap and asks 
what you really want . . . and of course, rearrange the letters of his 
name and you get Satan)

-I can't believe I'm listing anything with Adam Sandler, who really 
*is* Satan, but there was one news bit with him (you know, the thing 
where he sings the news to a ukelele) that left me gasping for breath. 
 Also, I'll never forget the Opera Guy watching Al Gore dancing (or 
trying to) at the 1993 inauguration and singing "Gore-o, no more-o!"

Amy




From bray.262 at osu.edu  Wed Feb 20 08:36:14 2002
From: bray.262 at osu.edu (Rachel Bray)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 08:36:14 EST5EDT
Subject: Favorite Saturday Night Live Skits
Message-ID: <1228B030A9@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>

I don't remember who the guest star was that night but it 
was a skit about Idiots Anonymous.

Woman:  Hi, my name is Gina...and I'm an idiot.
Meeting Members: Hi, Bob!

Tom Hanks' Mr. Short Term Memory skit always had me in 
tears.

Christoper Walken's The Continental is probably one of my 
all time favorites.  Especially the time his mustache was 
falling off and he was trying to ignore it but couldn't.

And of course:  "Cheeseburger, cheeseburger, 
cheeseburger...no Coke, Pepsi!"  from dearly missed John 
Belushi.



Rachel Bray
The Ohio State University
Fees, Deposits and Disbursements


Frodo: I wish the ring had never come to me....I wish 
none of this had happened.

Gandalf: So do all who live to see such times, but that 
is not for them to decide.  All we have to decide is 
what to do with the time that is given us.



From tabouli at unite.com.au  Wed Feb 20 15:10:18 2002
From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 02:10:18 +1100
Subject: Sporty shorties, Aussie Aussie Aussie (Oy! Oy! Oy!)
Message-ID: <002801c1ba21$11943fe0$0e33c2cb@price>

Drieux (I think: taken from a veritable roc's nest of quoted quotes):
>  As for short folks, the best (or from my perspective,
  worst!) fencer I ever faced was about 4'9" or so; she
  had next to *zero* target for me to find. <

Kathryn:
> And I'm 5'3", I can only imagine how fast your opponent must have been. I'm talking about foil here since they won't let us girls fight sabre, or they wouldn't when I was fencing<

Short sportspeople of the world, stand up on your tippy-toes and be counted!  (hopefully the rest of the world will be able to find us this way).  At a shade under 5'2" (Tabouli sighs for that last quarter of an inch she never quite managed), I can testify that being short can be a lamentable thing in one's sporting life.  Though useless with projectiles of all kinds (shuttlecocks, tennis balls, shotputs, paper aeroplanes, skipping stones, you name 'em), I'm quite flexible and nippy, enough so to be placed in the bottom (4th) division in sprinting, hurdles and long jump in interhouse athletics at my large secondary school (another sigh for past glories).  However.

The hurdles came up to my veritable armpits.  This is surely unfair.  While *other* girls were barely breaking stride to get over them, I was practically running a 100m race combined with the high jump.  Couldn't they have lowered them just a tad, to make it fair??  As for the long jump, I think I deserved some bonus inches, given that I am not only short, my legs are proportionately short as well, meaning I had jump up the difference in leg length further that my lanky rivals just to begin with!

Huh.

Then, in my mid twenties, I took up karate, on the grounds that it (a) involves no projectiles, and (b) is suited to a small, flexible, short-legged Asian body type, and (c) is exercise which actually has a useful purpose (unlike the gym, which I just do not understand).  At first all was well - I enjoyed it greatly, experienced a dramatic improvement in my fitness and coordination, and felt more confident about having a fighting chance of getting away if someone attacked me physically.  However, as I rose through the ranks to brown belt, combat practice, never my favorite bit, started getting positively scary.  Yep, being small again.

Pitted against taller, younger, male opponents, as I often was, I had to work three times as hard at dodging and getting in to punch or kick, because their arms and legs were probably a foot longer than mine!  You get bruises on your arms and legs from blocking anyway, but by green belt I was starting to get thumped in the stomach and shins and taking blows which *really hurt*, and I began to quail every time combat practice (kumite) was mentioned.  Knowing that people have ended up in hospital after black belt gradings (and having witnessed the combat part of this, I can well believe it), I got more and more nervous as I rose to 3rd kyu (two gradings away from black belt), and finally, amid exhaustion from working and studying full-time *and* dealing with hideous family problems in 2000, I quit altogether.

Admittedly, the dangers of the grading process and combat practice *should* have been controlled by the karate club, but other than reminders not to hit anyone too hard or in the groin or head, they didn't police us much.  Another good reason to quit.  Sadly, since leaving work and no longer cycling there each day (and sitting at home writing novels, training programs and HPFGU posts!) I'm getting unfit and flabby (those summer clothes are tight this year!), so I'm looking into taking up tae kwondo instead, where they seem to be much more organised and careful...

Drieux:
> IIRC the commentary from that race, there was the
probability of a re-skate of the finals, but the
judges looked at the tape and saw what we did:  The
Aussie slipping through to take first; Ohno sprawling
across the line followed by the Canadian doing much
the same. Thus, the medals are won, if not the way
we-- not to mention the racers!-- wanted them to be.<

(Tabouli clears her throat loudly, and unfurls a large Australian flag).  Not the way *we* wanted them to be?  What do you mean *we*, eh?)

Oy! Oy! Oy!

Tabouli.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From bray.262 at osu.edu  Wed Feb 20 12:05:18 2002
From: bray.262 at osu.edu (Rachel Bray)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 12:05:18 EST5EDT
Subject: damn advertisers!!!
Message-ID: <15A47D4977@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>

Don't you just want to punch these guys that invade our 
little home with their advertisements?!

It's like...door-to-door salesmen!

Erg.

Rachel Bray
The Ohio State University
Fees, Deposits and Disbursements


Frodo: I wish the ring had never come to me....I wish 
none of this had happened.

Gandalf: So do all who live to see such times, but that 
is not for them to decide.  All we have to decide is 
what to do with the time that is given us.



From andrew_macian at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 20 17:26:10 2002
From: andrew_macian at yahoo.com (Andrew MacIan)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 09:26:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] damn advertisers!!!
In-Reply-To: <15A47D4977@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>
Message-ID: <20020220172610.62858.qmail@web9502.mail.yahoo.com>

Greetings from Andrew!

"Do *I* ring you up at *your* dinner time?  Well, do
I?"

--- Rachel Bray <bray.262 at osu.edu> wrote:
> Don't you just want to punch these guys that invade
> our 
> little home with their advertisements?!
> 
> It's like...door-to-door salesmen!
> 
> Erg.

Ah, the utter joy of living in a 'society' built on
merchandising (read: greed) and a lack of manners....

Not to mention being a member of an unmod'd list!

By the bye, Rachel, thanks for the symmetric date/time
reminder!

Cheers,

Drieux

...who is about to go face a group of ill-tempered
ruminants and try to drill a little more calculus into
their heads before their next exam...

=====
ICQ # 76184391

'Each game of chess means there's one less
      Variation left to be played;
 Each day got through means one or two less
      Mistakes remain to be made.'
      --'Chess' by Sir Tim Rice

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games
http://sports.yahoo.com



From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Wed Feb 20 17:57:08 2002
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (lupinesque)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 17:57:08 -0000
Subject: Favorite Saturday Night Live Skits
In-Reply-To: <1228B030A9@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>
Message-ID: <a50o1k+5c0e@eGroups.com>

Rachel wrote:

> Christoper Walken's The Continental is probably one of my 
> all time favorites.  Especially the time his mustache was 
> falling off and he was trying to ignore it but couldn't.

This reminded me of another really good one:  the What's Pat when CW 
was the guest.  He was driven to existential despair by the terrible 
uncertainty about Pat and finally jumped out a window.

Amy Z
who stopped watching SNL because the music was icky (I am hopelessly 
stuck in 30+-year-old music, except of course for Dylan) and the 
sketches were never funny and is suddenly wondering if she should 
revise that opinion




From cindysphynx at home.com  Wed Feb 20 18:20:37 2002
From: cindysphynx at home.com (cindysphynx)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 18:20:37 -0000
Subject: Favorite Saturday Night Live Skits
In-Reply-To: <a50o1k+5c0e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a50pdl+311r@eGroups.com>

My old favorites were anything with Richard Pryor in it.  Another 
favorite would be the "Bass-O-Matic" commercial.  And how can I leave 
out "Coneheads"?

Yeah, I'm old enough to remember the very first SNL shows.  ::sniff::

Amy wrote:

> Amy Z
> who stopped watching SNL because the music was icky (I am 
hopelessly 
> stuck in 30+-year-old music, except of course for Dylan) and the 
> sketches were never funny and is suddenly wondering if she should 
> revise that opinion

Oh, SNL has improved a great deal over the last, uh, decade.  It is 
frustrating that I frequently have never heard of the host or musical 
performer, though.  Weekend Update is *very* good these days.  
Everything Darryll Hammond does is outstanding.  And don't tell 
anyone, but I also like "Brian Fellows Animal Planet."

Cindy (who is too old to stay up late on a Saturday night, but who 
records SNL and watches it while folding laundry on Sunday)




From cindysphynx at home.com  Wed Feb 20 18:24:51 2002
From: cindysphynx at home.com (cindysphynx)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 18:24:51 -0000
Subject: More Figure Skating:  Nail Biting Over Michelle
Message-ID: <a50plj+s8dt@eGroups.com>

I have to share my angst over Michelle Kwan.  I saw the short 
programs, and Michelle finished first.  But, uh, I love Michelle and 
all, but I really don't see how she could be ranked first based on 
how everyone skated.  Michelle seemed very slow.  Her spins were 
slow, her jumps were low, her footwork seemed slow.  Was it just me?  
I would have placed Slutskaya first, Cohen second, Kwan third.

Well, I hope it goes well for Michelle on Thursday.  I get the 
feeling that the sport is passing her by and this might be her last 
chance.

Cindy (who initially thought Michelle had lost her mind when she 
fired her coach, choreographer and costumer, but now figures it was 
kinda gutsy)




From blpurdom at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 20 19:01:52 2002
From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 19:01:52 -0000
Subject: Sporty shorties, Aussie Aussie Aussie (Oy! Oy! Oy!)
In-Reply-To: <002801c1ba21$11943fe0$0e33c2cb@price>
Message-ID: <a50rr0+on1n@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "Tabouli" <tabouli at u...> wrote:
> Then, in my mid twenties, I took up karate <snip> However, as I 
> rose through the ranks to brown belt, combat practice, never my 
> favorite bit, started getting positively scary.  Yep, being small 
> again.
> 
> Pitted against taller, younger, male opponents, as I often was, I 
> had to work three times as hard at dodging and getting in to punch 
> or kick, because their arms and legs were probably a foot longer 
> than mine!  You get bruises on your arms and legs from blocking 
> anyway, but by green belt I was starting to get thumped in the 
> stomach and shins and taking blows which *really hurt*, and I 
> began to quail every time combat practice (kumite) was mentioned.  

You don't even have to be much smaller than one's opponent.  I took 
a semester of karate in college for a PE credit, since my husband 
(at that time, my boyfriend) was a black belt and often ran the 
karate club trainings, for which we received extra credit (the 
highest-ranking person present ran the training).  I was often 
pitted against a fellow only a year older and several inches taller 
than me (I'm 5'3" and at the time I weighed barely 100 lbs.) but he 
was a brown belt and very aggressive.  I had dreadful bruises on my 
arms every time I was sparring with him for twenty minutes.  

Since I had a boyfriend who was a black belt, I frankly didn't feel 
much like continuing to torture myself by going up against this jerk 
every time I went to the club.  He was roommates with the Sensei's 
nephew, who was the US champion several years running at that time, 
and they enjoyed engaging in Pink Panther-style fights (i.e. 
Clouseau and Cato) in their apartment--the nephew put his roommate 
in the hospital more than once (the roommate was a glutton for 
punishment).  Somehow, I felt like he was taking it out on ME when I 
sparred with him.  Was it my fault he chose to live with the US 
Shotokan Karate champion?

My husband received his second-degree (Nidan) while he was in 
college (he'd gotten his first-degree when he was sixteen) and he 
continued training into his twenties, but then he started coming up 
against these truly gigantic guys from Penn (6'4" and 225 lbs) who 
were several inches taller than him and had about thirty pounds on 
him.  They didn't seem to feel the need to pull their punches or 
engage in any of the other accepted courtesies of the dojo, and my 
husband did his best to tolerate them, but it was getting very 
tiresome.  He still does kata at home some (he just bought himself a 
new gi last year) but he's not interested in going back to the local 
dojo at this time.  Karate is supposed to be a peaceful discipline, 
but some people just ruin it for everyone else.  The Sensei's 
nephew, Hiro, was actually always very nice to me when we sparred 
(he was only a couple of inches taller than me).  I think he knew 
his roommate was a jerk and he was trying to get him to see the 
light.  I have no idea whether it ever worked.

--Barb
(who loves to watch her husband doing kata...)




From bray.262 at osu.edu  Wed Feb 20 13:52:55 2002
From: bray.262 at osu.edu (Rachel Bray)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 13:52:55 EST5EDT
Subject: YAY!  Hometown girl won the Silver!
Message-ID: <176FB31747@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>

Lea Ann Parsley, our hometown Olympic athlete, just won the 
silver in the Skeleton competition!

YAY!

She's a firefigher out of Granville (won Ohio Firefighter 
of the Year last year for saving a boy and his mother from 
their house), a nursing student here at OSU and now an 
Olympic medal winner!!!

Happy Happy Joy Joy!

Rachel Bray
The Ohio State University
Fees, Deposits and Disbursements


Frodo: I wish the ring had never come to me....I wish 
none of this had happened.

Gandalf: So do all who live to see such times, but that 
is not for them to decide.  All we have to decide is 
what to do with the time that is given us.



From blpurdom at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 20 19:10:33 2002
From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 19:10:33 -0000
Subject: Favorite Saturday Night Live Skits
In-Reply-To: <a50pdl+311r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a50sb9+md70@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "cindysphynx" <cindysphynx at h...> wrote:
> My old favorites were anything with Richard Pryor in it.  Another 
> favorite would be the "Bass-O-Matic" commercial.  And how can I 
> leave out "Coneheads"?
> 
> Yeah, I'm old enough to remember the very first SNL 
> shows.  ::sniff::

For that matter, anything that had Gilda Radner was gold.  And the 
amazing season that had Eddie Murphy, Billy Crystal, Christopher 
Guest and Harry Shearer!
 
I basically stopped watching because it just stopped being funny.  
And even when they had bits that were mildly amusing, they didn't 
know when to stop.  The same joke repeated eight times is not 
funny.  It's not even very funny the second time.  

MAD TV is MUCH better than SNL, and has some truly hysterical bits, 
although it isn't quite as good as Living Color or SNL it its heyday 
(but sometimes it comes close).  Another show that was on only 
briefly was "The Edge," which was a syndicated David Mirkin project 
(he's on "The Simpsons" production crew, and the show had a truly 
odd Simpsons-esque flavor to it).  It's mostly notable for including 
a pre-Friends Jennifer Aniston in the cast.  She was actually very 
funny and had to do many different characters per episode.  Did 
anyone else ever see this?

--Barb






From jenP_97 at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 20 20:50:49 2002
From: jenP_97 at yahoo.com (jenP_97)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 20:50:49 -0000
Subject: Favorite Saturday Night Live Skits
In-Reply-To: <a50sb9+md70@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a51279+fjs2@eGroups.com>

First of all, an OT-OT question... is anyone else on webview having
trouble with editing their replies/posts?  Every time I hit delete,
whole lines disappear.  It's starting to make me angry...

Okay, on to my favorite SNL skits.  Word of warning: I was *also* born
in 1975 - so while my favorite "live" shows were when I was in high
school, my favorite "classic" shows were Comedy Central rebroadcasts
which my older sister watched regularly.

Favorite classic:

"Buckwheat Sings" (hilarious!)
the "Quarry" cereal commercial.
the consumer special with Candace Bergen and the toy manufacturer that
put out the likes of "Bag O' Glass" for Christmas

Favorite live (late 80s to early 90s):

"Deep Thoughts"
"Super Happy Fun Ball"
any of the "Church Lady" skits, but particularly the one with John
Goodman
The "Stewart Smalley" with Michael Jordan
the winter olympics episode with (shoot!  what's his name?  he was on
90210... DARNIT!) oh yeah!  Jason Priestly, where he's a male figure
skater and keeps falling and bloody-ing his face and injuring
himself... that is my ABSOLUTE favorite one. :)

Of course, I don't watch it very much anymore, but occasionally, when
we stay over at my dad's house on the weekends, I can stay up late
enough to catch an episode maybe 2x a year... and the current bits I
like are the cheerleader bits (do they still do that anymore?) and
um... eh... I guess I don't watch it enough.

Oh, and add me to the Adam Sandler anti-fan club.  The only bits I 
ever liked him in were the ones where he sang the Hannukah and the
Lunch Lady songs...

Jen (who is getting really mad at the crappy web-view editor...)




From jdumas at kingwoodcable.com  Wed Feb 20 21:07:51 2002
From: jdumas at kingwoodcable.com (Katze)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 15:07:51 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] More Figure Skating:  Nail Biting Over Michelle
References: <a50plj+s8dt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3C741027.AE9986CC@kingwoodcable.com>

cindysphynx wrote:
> 
> I have to share my angst over Michelle Kwan.  I saw the short
> programs, and Michelle finished first.  But, uh, I love Michelle and
> all, but I really don't see how she could be ranked first based on
> how everyone skated.  Michelle seemed very slow.  Her spins were
> slow, her jumps were low, her footwork seemed slow.  Was it just me?
> I would have placed Slutskaya first, Cohen second, Kwan third.
> 
> Well, I hope it goes well for Michelle on Thursday.  I get the
> feeling that the sport is passing her by and this might be her last
> chance.
> 
> Cindy (who initially thought Michelle had lost her mind when she
> fired her coach, choreographer and costumer, but now figures it was
> kinda gutsy)

I agree that Kwan was gutsy firing everyone and taking control herself. 

As for the Olympics. I'm pulling for Cohen and Slutskaya. I thought
Slutskaya did wonderfully, though her spins were really aggressive.
Cohen was very graceful. I would have put Kwan in 3rd as well. It's not
that I hope she doesn't get the gold, but she doesn't seem that excited
about it. I think Cohen and Slutskaya are more excited. They seemed
genuine in their attitude towards the competition (just look at their
expressions at the end of the short program). A person's excitement goes
a long way for me. Did you all see the Swiss kid who won two ski jumping
medals? Now...that's excitement! Even Yagudin let his excitement come
out when he was skating. It's nice to see someone interested in the
sport, and Kwan seems quite ambivalent in her attitude (at least what
she shows us).

-Katze



From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Wed Feb 20 21:22:49 2002
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (coriolan_cmc2001)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 21:22:49 -0000
Subject: Rupert/Dylan/dancing movies/Blues Brothers
In-Reply-To: <a4sejr+4n1r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a51439+2hm4@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "uilnslcoap" <devin.smither at y...> wrote:

and don't get me started 
> on Williams's score.  Star Wars, Superman, Jaws, (Back to the 
> Future?  was that Williams?  that theme is really good whoever it 
> was) 

All three BTTF movies were scored by Alan Silvestri, who often works 
with the director of all 3 BTTF movies, Robert Zemeckis (Forrest 
Gump, Roger Rabbit, etc)

BTW, the Vaerese-Sarabande label recently re-released JW's score for 
The Fury, Brian DePalma's 1978 tale of psyschokenesis. This is one of 
Williams' all-time best, quite outside his pop extravanganza style: 
the main title, for example, has a tragic granduer that would do 
Mahler proud (and notice how this very tragic theme is later aped by 
the calliope in the ferris wheel scene)

http://www.varesesarabande.com

   - CMC (a gold mine of useless information)




From pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no  Wed Feb 20 21:49:49 2002
From: pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no (pengolodh_sc)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 21:49:49 -0000
Subject: Thought this was interesting.....
In-Reply-To: <A7787679D4@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>
Message-ID: <a515lt+q1vo@eGroups.com>

To display my geekiness in undisputable manner....

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter, "Rachel Bray" wrote:

[snip]

> A symmetrical pattern has only happened once in the past, a 
> little over a thousand years ago. The exact moment was 
> 10:01 a.m. on 10 January 1001.

I would have thought that 11:11am November 11th 1111 would have 
counted, or was it eliminated by one of those adjustments of the 
calendars that have occured on occasion?

> This balanced pattern will never happen again.

With the notable exception of twelve after nine in the evening of 
December 21st, 2112.

> Rachel Bray

Best regards
Christian Stub?
Who was otherwise occupied at this symmetrical moment in time.




From bray.262 at osu.edu  Wed Feb 20 16:48:07 2002
From: bray.262 at osu.edu (Rachel Bray)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 16:48:07 EST5EDT
Subject: Thought this was interesting.....
Message-ID: <1A5AE85B81@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>

Yeah....that's what I get for immediately forwarding an e-
mail without really thinking about it first.  I thought 
about 2112, too.  *sigh*  Oh well.  Here's an article about 
it from today's Columbus Dispatch:

It is a rare occurrence -- just a minute long -- that no 
one now alive has ever experienced or likely ever will 
again. 
At two minutes past eight tonight, the calendar will 
achieve a triple palindrome, when the time -- on a 24-hour 
clock -- and date synchronize to read the same backward as 
they do forward: 20:02, 02/ 20, 2002. 
It's valid even in countries where the day precedes the 
month: 20:02, 20.02, 2002. 
This quirky twist in time is possible only once in a 
lifetime. The last time it occurred was 1111. We won't see 
another until 2112. 
After that, there won't be another again. 
"I give this as much significance as Y2K, which as we all 
know was monumentally insignificant,'' said Mark Saltveit, 
editor of the Palindromist Magazine in Portland, Ore. 
"Yet you won't believe how much attention it's been 
getting,'' Saltveit said. "I'm talking to the BBC three 
times (today). It's like a feeding frenzy. 
"I'm a palindromist and I've been telling people to get a 
life.'' 
While mathematicians have a familiarity with palindromes, 
it was language that first made them possible. 
They were originated by Sotades the Obscene, whose vulgar 
verses about a ruler of ancient Egypt led to the poet's 
execution in the third century B.C. 
Some say the first conversation on Earth began with a 
palindrome: "Madam, I'm Adam.'' 
But perhaps the most famous is the line: A man, a plan, a 
canal: Panama. 
On her Web site, Ohio State University linguist Pauline 
Welby displays what she said is her all-time favorite 
palindrome: Dubya won? No way bud! It's a reference to 
George W. Bush's controversial 2000 presidential victory. 



Rachel Bray
The Ohio State University
Fees, Deposits and Disbursements


Frodo: I wish the ring had never come to me....I wish 
none of this had happened.

Gandalf: So do all who live to see such times, but that 
is not for them to decide.  All we have to decide is 
what to do with the time that is given us.



From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed Feb 20 22:53:11 2002
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 22:53:11 -0000
Subject: Sporty shorties, Aussie Aussie Aussie (Oy! Oy! Oy!)
In-Reply-To: <002801c1ba21$11943fe0$0e33c2cb@price>
Message-ID: <a519cn+egn4@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "Tabouli" <tabouli at u...> wrote:

> Admittedly, the dangers of the grading process and combat 
practice *should* have been controlled by the karate club, but 
other than reminders not to hit anyone too hard or in the groin or 
head, they didn't police us much.  Another good reason to quit.  
Sadly, since leaving work and no longer cycling there each day 
(and sitting at home writing novels, training programs and 
HPFGU posts!) I'm getting unfit and flabby (those summer 
clothes are tight this year!), so I'm looking into taking up tae 
kwondo instead, where they seem to be much more organised 
and careful...
> 

Have you considered Aikido? I did that for about ten years, till I 
moved to this benighted dojoless corner of the desert. Excellent 
exercise, good for short people and since it's not competitive, the 
macho types tend to stay away from it, in my experience.

Pippin





From voicelady at mymailstation.com  Wed Feb 20 23:30:06 2002
From: voicelady at mymailstation.com (the_voicelady)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 23:30:06 -0000
Subject: Favorite Saturday Night Live Skits
In-Reply-To: <a51279+fjs2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a51bhu+85pe@eGroups.com>

> Jenny from Ravenclaw asked:
>
> > What other skits do people laugh out loud just thinking about?

Okay, I guess I'm showing my age here (because I remember seeing it 
when it ran the first time), but the absolute best SNL sketch ever, 
IMNSHO, was Madeline Kahn singing "I Feel Pretty" as the Bride of 
Frankenstein.

I miss her.

Jeralyn, the Voicelady





From editor at texas.net  Thu Feb 21 01:59:07 2002
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 19:59:07 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Freaking out over an ice skater...
References: <a502rc+ismf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <002b01c1ba7b$59e1d280$f87763d1@texas.net>

Sofie said

> I've never had my name announced on television but at my sixth Form
> there is another Sophie Campbell, so I get notices for her and I get
> told to go see teachers that don't teach me etc.

What's a Form?

--Amanda, ignorant Texan (who realizes that could be considered an oxymoron
at times)






From voicelady at mymailstation.com  Thu Feb 21 01:04:26 2002
From: voicelady at mymailstation.com (voicelady)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 21:04:26 EDT
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Freaking out over an ice skater...
Message-ID: <id.20022002210426.00000@FPE>

In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "jenP_97" <jenP_97 at y...> wrote:
> Has anyone else had this happen?

Let's see...my name is Jeralyn...nope, can't say that it's ever happened... until recently - when a Geralynn subscribed to HPFGU!.  And if I recall correctly, we both pronounce it the same way - which is not how it's spelled.

Jeralyn, the Voicelady



From kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk  Thu Feb 21 02:14:46 2002
From: kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk (Kathryn)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 02:14:46 -0000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Freaking out over an ice skater...
References: <a502rc+ismf@eGroups.com> <002b01c1ba7b$59e1d280$f87763d1@texas.net>
Message-ID: <004101c1ba7d$89364c80$682a86d9@monica>

Form, slightly old fashioned word for class, still used in conjunction with the 6th and 7th years of senior school which are together generally referred to as the Sixth Form, divided into upper and lower sixth. Although technically they're years 12 and 13 now (stupid new numbering system, totally unnecessary)
Also where a year is divided into several classes for administrative purposes they are called forms. ie the first years may be divided into 6 forms (for registration puroses, possibly the same as what you Americans call homeroom?), in the case of my old school, which thought it was being clever, they would be 1T, 1H, 1O, 1M, 1A, and 1S, because the school was called Thomas Alleyne School, do you see? (pathetic) Anyway I digress (as usual)
So to get back to my point, for the first 5 years of senior school a form is part of a year, similar to the way Hogwarts is divided into houses, but for the top two years Sixth Form is the general name given to all pupils.

Gee, I bet you're sorry you asked now :)

K
If an advisor says to me "My liege, he is but one man. What can one man possibly do?", I will reply "This." and kill the advisor.
http://minievil.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Amanda 
  To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2002 1:59 AM
  Subject: Re: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Freaking out over an ice skater...


  Sofie said

  > I've never had my name announced on television but at my sixth Form
  > there is another Sophie Campbell, so I get notices for her and I get
  > told to go see teachers that don't teach me etc.

  What's a Form?

  --Amanda, ignorant Texan (who realizes that could be considered an oxymoron
  at times)




        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
              ADVERTISEMENT
             
       
       

  ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________

  Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the group's Admin Files!
  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/

  Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying!

  Is your message...
  An announcement of merchandise, news etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements.
  Movie-related? Send it to HPFGU-Movie.
  Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups.
  None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter.
  Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com

  Unsubscribing? Email HPFGU-OTChatter-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
  ____________________________________________________________


  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From john at walton.vu  Thu Feb 21 02:08:19 2002
From: john at walton.vu (John Walton)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 02:08:19 +0000
Subject: Forms/Grades/Years
In-Reply-To: <002b01c1ba7b$59e1d280$f87763d1@texas.net>
Message-ID: <B89A0713.AC20%john@walton.vu>

>> Sofie said
 
>> I've never had my name announced on television but at my sixth Form
>> there is another Sophie Campbell, so I get notices for her and I get
>> told to go see teachers that don't teach me etc.

> Amanda Thuh Ignurnt Texan (:D) wrote:
 
> What's a Form?

Usually equivalent to a grade in US schools, or a Year in HP-speak.
Sometimes a Form can be just one ability group of a year, though this was
known as a Set in my school. For instance, when I started senior school, I
was in Third Form (my year group), Set 1 for French (on ability) and Set 2
for Maths (on ability). A Sixth Form College is the equivalent of Grades 11
and 12 in a separate school.

HTH, but as usual in Britain, YMMV.

--John

____________________________________________

American Bipartisanship: I'll hug your elephant if you'll kiss my ass.

John Walton || Elephant Hugger || john at walton.vu
____________________________________________




From editor at texas.net  Thu Feb 21 02:19:36 2002
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 20:19:36 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Favorite Saturday Night Live Skits
References: <a50pdl+311r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <008801c1ba7e$368f6f60$f87763d1@texas.net>

Cindy spake:

> And how can I leave out "Coneheads"?

Hard indeed for me to forget it, either, since the love of my life has been
saluting me with raised arm and "Hail Amandar!" for far, far longer than
I've found it amusing.....sigh. My *six* year old does it now....

--Amandar





From john at walton.vu  Thu Feb 21 02:23:45 2002
From: john at walton.vu (John Walton)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 02:23:45 +0000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Favorite Saturday Night Live Skits
In-Reply-To: <008801c1ba7e$368f6f60$f87763d1@texas.net>
Message-ID: <B89A0AB1.AC2B%john@walton.vu>

I have to say that my personal favorites of all time are the Celebrity
Jeopardy skits. 

"No, Mr Connery, that category is 'The Pen Is Mightier'."

"No, Mr Connery, that category is 'Therapists'."

--John

____________________________________________

"The Universe is not only Queerer than we suppose,
it is Queerer than we can suppose." - JBS Haldane, 'Possible Worlds'

John Walton || john at walton.vu
____________________________________________




From virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 21 02:44:01 2002
From: virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com (virtualworldofhp)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 02:44:01 -0000
Subject: Merchandising Victim
Message-ID: <a51mth+9val@eGroups.com>

And Now For Something Completely Different...

I now own my first "official" piece of HP merchandise.  Well, I didn't
even buy it--my completely awesome Secret Pal (when I find out who
they are, I will have to give them a big hug!) gave me some of the
Green Apple Body Wash...it smells yummy!  Of course, never mind the
other two almost-full bottles of body wash sitting in the shower.  My
Secret Pal rocks...;-)

Oh durn, I DID forget about those purple HP socks I bought myself for
Christmas.  Well, this is the first HP GIFT I've gotten.

-Megan (whose idea of a care package to a friend in Romania consisted
of two pairs of HP socks and some HP Band-Aids)




From triner918 at aol.com  Thu Feb 21 03:19:06 2002
From: triner918 at aol.com (triner2001)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 03:19:06 -0000
Subject: Skating costumes (Was: All the olympics stuff)
In-Reply-To: <a4rbel+l8e9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a51ova+4tg5@eGroups.com>

Hi y'all!

I have been a major lurker lately since with 67 (or is it 68?) kids 
on my caseload at school all I want to do when I get home is crash on 
the couch and be a big ol' slug in front of the tv.  

I have, however, been an avid Olympic watcher (as I am with every 
Olympics) and have even been following the curling competitions.  
Frightening thought, I know.  

Of course, my favorite is the figure skating...

Cindy wrote:

>>We will discourage that skin-colored netting that covers so much of 
many costumes.<<  

Bit o' trivia:  The skin-colored netting that seems to be everywhere 
is courtesy of one Katerina Witt, who managed to have a significant 
portion of her anatomy fall out of an especially low-cut costume 
during her final pose at a competition.  She was lying on the ice at 
the time and I'm willing to bet that got her attention!  As a result 
the "Katerina rule" came about which regulates modesty.  Since the 
girls can't have a racy dress, they faux-racy with the netting.  

>>We will have a special 3-day clinic to straighten out 
Surya Bonaly. <<

Is this possible?  And is 3 days enough?  I have had no use for her 
after her hissy fit at the '92 (?) World Championships when she 
refused to accept her silver medal.  If you can't deal with losing, 
then you shouldn't be an athlete. It's a part of playing.

BTW, who else noticed that the top 5 ladies all wore blue costumes 
last night?

Trina, eagerly awaiting tomorrow's ladies' free skate.







From golden_faile at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 21 04:48:46 2002
From: golden_faile at yahoo.com (golden faile)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 20:48:46 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Favorite Saturday Night Live Skits
In-Reply-To: <a50o1k+5c0e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20020221044846.12585.qmail@web14606.mail.yahoo.com>


How about Gilda Radner's Rosanna Rosanna Danna?
Remember her? Also Eddie Murphy's Gumby Damnit. 
How about the coneheads? My favorite Mango episode was
the one with Garth Brooks and he also did a funny one
with Jennifer Lopez.

Laila

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games
http://sports.yahoo.com



From golden_faile at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 21 05:09:49 2002
From: golden_faile at yahoo.com (golden faile)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 21:09:49 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Favorite Saturday Night Live Skits
In-Reply-To: <a50sb9+md70@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20020221050949.46198.qmail@web14610.mail.yahoo.com>


-> MAD TV is MUCH better than SNL, and has some truly
> hysterical bits,

I totally agree, we watch this more often now and it
is truly funny, I think because it is still fresh. It
hasn't been around quite as long.( I love the skits
with stewart "look what I can do!") 

Another show that was on only briefly was "The Edge,"
It's mostly notable for including a pre-Friends
Jennifer Aniston in the cast.  She was actually very 
> funny and had to do many different characters per
> episode.  Did anyone else ever see this?
> 
> Yes I vaguely remember this show, it was funny but
it was on for a VERY short time. And now that you
mention it, I do remember Jennifer Aniston being in
it.

Laila
> 
> 
> 
> 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games
http://sports.yahoo.com



From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 21 11:18:08 2002
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naamagatus)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 11:18:08 -0000
Subject: Rupert/Dylan/dancing movies/Blues Brothers
In-Reply-To: <a4sejr+4n1r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a52l1g+fkrb@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "uilnslcoap" <devin.smither at y...> wrote:
> So, then...Naama, yes, I agree completely with you.  I happen to 
not 
> think very highly of the movie, but I adored Grint's performance.  
He 
> was an island of true hilarity and characterization in an ocean of 
> wretchedness, particularly Emma Watson...I'd like to meet the girl 
> who could play Hermione less as I envisioned her.  She seemed more 
of 
> a whiny little prat than a somewhat uptight girl who was really 
very 
> nice underneath that part of herself.  Long live Hermione from the 
> books, down with Watson's portrayal!  Rupert was great, though.  
Made 
> some really great faces, managed to seem really BRAVE in his chess 
> scene, and was just the right kind of goofy-looking-but-cute that I 
> pictured as Ron (if not distinctly tall and long-nosed enough).  He 
> was great, outshone many of the adults, actually.  I particularly 
was 
> disappointed in Richard Harris.  He completely lost the twinkle of 
> Dumbledore, that really sweet bit ("Nitwit!  Blubber!  Oddment!  
> Tweak!").  He just struck me as sage and grandfatherly without the 
> spriteliness I see in Rowling's Dumbledore...and don't get me 
started 
> on Williams's score.  Star Wars, Superman, Jaws, (Back to the 
> Future?  was that Williams?  that theme is really good whoever it 
> was) and Close Encounters were great musically.  What happened?
> 

Well, there you are! It seems impossible to evaluate Rupert's 
performance without taking into account the background, that is the 
poor performance of the other actors, the uninspired direction, etc. 

What I'm trying to do is to decide whether Rupert is good compared to 
other GOOD actors. Could he compete with child actors such as Elijah 
Wood or what's-his-name Osmond? I'm not sure. Maybe he seemd so cute 
(and like he actually knows how to act) because Emma was so awful and 
Dan was so.. boring. 
I agree about Harris, btw. No twinkle at all. 
What did you think of Robby Coltrane? Hagrid was only right on the 
outside, wasn't he? For me, the whole point of Hagrid is that he's 
even bigger inside than outside. They put a lot of effort into making 
Hagrid physically big, but that was it. As far as personality goes, 
he was reduced to being slightly comical and completely flat 
otherwise. 

I guess that's really what I feel about the movie - that it's all 
outside and no inside. Good scenery, good props, an impressive list 
of actors, fine visual effects, famous director.. but Dumbledore has 
no twinkle, Hagrid is without his big heart,  Harry is without 
character, Hermione is almost diametrically not herself.. and in 
general nothing is left of the specifically HP-ish humor and spirit.


Naama








From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Thu Feb 21 12:58:29 2002
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 12:58:29 -0000
Subject: Peter Cook
In-Reply-To: <a4s1ki+mjlo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a52qtl+5hsf@eGroups.com>

quin peel us wrote:
> Interesting Dave wrote:
>  
> > Hm. Reminds me of Peter Cook.  And Chinese proverbs.
> 
> OK, the Chinese proverb reference I get, but not Peter Cook.  (I 
mean, 
> I know who he is--very funny man IMO--but not the connection.)  
> Explain?

Was, not is.  He died a year or two ago.  OK, here's where my memory 
goes to pieces.  IIRC it was a Peter Cook and Dudley Moore radio 
sketch.  Moore is sitting on a park bench, and Cook comes up to him 
and starts regaling him with various 'interesting' facts.  Everything 
Moore can think of to put him off elicits the response 'That's very 
interesting', in an incredibly nerdy voice.  It ends up I think with 
Cook saying he doesn't like the way Arabs whine in your ears; when 
pressed he admints he gets confused 'on account of them being next to 
each other in the dictionary'.
Moore: What?
Cook: Mosques and mosquitoes.

Well, it was funny when I heard it, anyway.  All long before 
political correctness, of course.

Me: 
> > Do you know, I found a joke in GOF...
 <joke snipped as you should never repeat them>
> > All right, you all got that the first time.  Never mind.

Amy again: 
> Nope, I didn't!  Not the first time or the subsequent 8.

May I keep and frame this post?

>  Page,  please?  I could add it to my sigs.

I will look it out when I get home (British first edition, with the 
*real* wand order) filial duties to visiting parents permitting




From moongirlk at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 21 15:30:31 2002
From: moongirlk at yahoo.com (moongirlk)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 15:30:31 -0000
Subject: Nail Biting Over Michelle/retraction of ice-dance defense
In-Reply-To: <a50plj+s8dt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a533qo+td5t@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "cindysphynx" <cindysphynx at h...> wrote:
> I have to share my angst over Michelle Kwan.  I saw the short 
> programs, and Michelle finished first.  But, uh, I love Michelle 
and 
> all, but I really don't see how she could be ranked first based on 
> how everyone skated.  Michelle seemed very slow.  Her spins were 
> slow, her jumps were low, her footwork seemed slow.  Was it just 
me?  
> I would have placed Slutskaya first, Cohen second, Kwan third.

It's not just you.  I was a little worried about it too, especially 
since Slutskaya's program was more technically difficult.  To be 
honest I don't enjoy Slutskaya's skating - it always seems a little 
clunky to me - just not as graceful and smooth as it ought to be, but 
in the short program it seems like technical merit ought to be the 
most important thing.  I do hope that Michelle does well, but I hope 
she doesn't win on past achievements, as has happened in the past.  
If she's going to win, I want her to earn it.  Cohen has impressed me 
like crazy, and I won't be surprised to see her pushing Kwan and 
Slutskaya out of contention soon enough.  I like Hughes's skating, 
but I think she's a little overwhelmed by the olympic thing, and her 
short program was pretty shakey.  

I now have to retract about half of what I said in defense of ice 
dancing based on the fact that I saw almost *all* of our taste rules 
broken and now they're falling down, too.  It's a shame, really, 
because the Canadians' program was going so well.  And the French 
pair who won - they stank up the place compared to what I've seen 
them do before.  Their choreography is usually fun and innovative.  
This time it just seemed gimmicky to me, and the whole costume/theme 
thing seemed very calculated for emotional manipulation.  I thought 
it was funny that the commentator kicked off their routine by saying 
it was in poor taste.  Especially when the Lithuanians' didn't bother 
him at all, and was basically the same kind of thing, if more 
subtle.  I've decided I'd like to add a mandatory .2 deduction for 
hair so unnatural and bright that it requires the viewer to wear 
sunglasses.

kimberly
disappointed, but looking forward to the ladies' finals tonight.

> 
> Well, I hope it goes well for Michelle on Thursday.  I get the 
> feeling that the sport is passing her by and this might be her last 
> chance.
> 
> Cindy (who initially thought Michelle had lost her mind when she 
> fired her coach, choreographer and costumer, but now figures it was 
> kinda gutsy)




From moongirlk at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 21 16:18:39 2002
From: moongirlk at yahoo.com (moongirlk)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 16:18:39 -0000
Subject: Favorite Saturday Night Live Skits
In-Reply-To: <20020221044846.12585.qmail@web14606.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <a536kv+tmo4@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., golden faile <golden_faile at y...> wrote:
> 
> How about Gilda Radner's Rosanna Rosanna Danna?

I don't remember those first-hand, only in reruns, but she and her 
husband were two of the funniest people ever.

> My favorite Mango episode was
> the one with Garth Brooks and he also did a funny one
> with Jennifer Lopez.

I liked the Mango with David Duchovny, and while I too am not a big 
Adam Sandler fan, I love his songs.  
Also loved the one where Alec Baldwin was a French teacher who got 
beat up when he went to France.  

I stopped watching SNL for a long time in response to a particular 
sketch.  When I saw Massive Headwound Harry I knew I had to give up 
on SNL until something changed.  Anyone remember that one?  

Anyone else have a LEAST favorite SNL sketch?

kimberly
seemingly going negative here lately

> 
> Laila
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games
> http://sports.yahoo.com




From nlpnt at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 21 17:03:08 2002
From: nlpnt at yahoo.com (nlpnt)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 17:03:08 -0000
Subject: New database, was Re: Forms/Grades/Years
In-Reply-To: <B89A0713.AC20%john@walton.vu>
Message-ID: <a5398c+e4t8@eGroups.com>

I've started a school comparison database in this club's "database" 
section. Only US/Canada and Hogwarts so far, but please feel free to 
add; if you're from Britain or Australia, click "edit record" for 
each year and put the info in the slots; if you're from a country not 
listed, click "edit table" first to add your country in.
Once all the info's in this should be really useful!
-Noel


--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., John Walton <john at w...> wrote:
> >> Sofie said
>  
> > Amanda Thuh Ignurnt Texan (:D) wrote:
>  
> > What's a Form?
> 
> Usually equivalent to a grade in US schools, or a Year in HP-speak. 
A Sixth Form College is the equivalent of Grades 11
> and 12 in a separate school.
> 
> HTH, but as usual in Britain, YMMV.
> 
> --John
> 
> ____________________________________________
> 
> American Bipartisanship: I'll hug your elephant if you'll kiss my 
ass.
> 
> John Walton || Elephant Hugger || john at w...
> ____________________________________________




From Zorb17 at aol.com  Thu Feb 21 17:50:30 2002
From: Zorb17 at aol.com (Zorb17 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 12:50:30 EST
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Nail Biting Over Michelle
Message-ID: <a.1a7aa83b.29a68d67@aol.com>

In a message dated Thu, 21 Feb 2002 10:33:53 AM Eastern Standard Time, "moongirlk" <moongirlk at yahoo.com> writes:
> It's not just you.  I was a little worried about it too, especially 
> since Slutskaya's program was more technically difficult.  To be 
> honest I don't enjoy Slutskaya's skating - it always seems a little 
> clunky to me - just not as graceful and smooth as it ought to be, but 
> in the short program it seems like technical merit ought to be the 
> most important thing.  I do hope that Michelle does well, but I hope 
> she doesn't win on past achievements, as has happened in the past.  
> If she's going to win, I want her to earn it.  Cohen has impressed me 
> like crazy, and I won't be surprised to see her pushing Kwan and 
> Slutskaya out of contention soon enough.  I like Hughes's skating, 
> but I think she's a little overwhelmed by the olympic thing, and her 
> short program was pretty shakey.  
> kimberly
> disappointed, but looking forward to the ladies' finals tonight.

The women's skating is pretty much the only winter sport that I *have* to watch.  I'm definitely rooting for Kwan (I still think she should've won four years ago).  I actually did think her short program was the best on Tuesday.  She showed more emotion and artistry than did either Slutskaya or Cohen.  Slutskaya, as you said, was kind of clunky, and Cohen just seemed emotionless to me.  I think this difference will become even more pronounced in tonight's competition.

The skater I feel bad for is Sarah Hughes.  While I agree with the judges on her placement (she wasn't as technically flawless as the others), I thought she had a lot more heart than her fellow teenager, Cohen.  I liked her costume better, too.  Maybe in four years...


Zorb



From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 21 18:26:10 2002
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (lupinesque)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 18:26:10 -0000
Subject: Peter Cook, slow-to-sink-in jokes
In-Reply-To: <a52qtl+5hsf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a53e42+ua9j@eGroups.com>

Awed levity wrote:

>Moore is sitting on a park bench, and Cook comes up to him 
> and starts regaling him with various 'interesting' facts.  
Everything 
> Moore can think of to put him off elicits the response 'That's very 
> interesting', in an incredibly nerdy voice.  

*sigh*  I've long since exhausted the video store's far-from-adequate 
collection of "Not Only...But Also" tapes.  This sounds funny. 

David:

> > > All right, you all got that the first time.  Never mind.
> 
> Amy again: 
> > Nope, I didn't!  Not the first time or the subsequent 8.

David:
 
> May I keep and frame this post?

It just goes to prove the recently-quoted adage that one should never 
e-mail anything one isn't willing to see on the front page of the 
paper.  Or on a living-room wall in Surrey.  Fine; if my idiocy must 
be immortalized, best for it to be 3000 miles from most of the people 
who know me.

Amy




From hpfgu_mods at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 21 20:54:26 2002
From: hpfgu_mods at yahoo.com (hpfgu_mods)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 20:54:26 -0000
Subject: Mafalda
Message-ID: <a53mq2+42t3@eGroups.com>

Dear Listmembers,

We know you may all be wondering why the Moderator Team has been 
relatively silent regarding the charges raised by "Mafalda Hopkirk" 
last week and Sinead's subsequent on-list confession. We've now spent 
the better part of a week trying to sort out what happened, what the 
motivations were and what we should say and do about all this.  
Obviously, we wanted to have as much information at our disposal as 
possible before we made any statements.

We are satisfied that Mafalda was Sinead Clements, but Dai Evans has 
indicated, in communication with members of the moderator team, that 
he was also involved. The main complaints against Penny Linsenmayer 
and John Walton and the issues with the main HPfGU list had been 
raised by Dai in December, in an off-list message to a moderator.  
Although Sinead has confessed to being responsible for the Mafalda 
messages, we have information indicating that Dai was involved in 
composing and sending them.

We would not ask any listmember to leave HPFGU over a matter like 
this, and we have not asked Sinead or Dai to do so.  Dai decided to 
leave of his own accord, for a number of reasons, including what he 
had perceived as inaction on some of the points he had raised 
previously.  Sinead is now back on OT-Chatter using the name "dismal 
sentence". To avoid any future unpleasantness of this sort, they will 
be on ad hoc moderated status on all our lists.

As a community, HPfGU recognises that people make mistakes and there 
is clearly a capacity to forgive foolish or irrational behaviour in 
others. However, this was an attack on some of the moderators and the 
general administration of the club by people they had trusted, so, at 
the personal level we need to take stock and sort out our views on 
the matter. Some of us who had met Sinead and Dai have to deal with a 
complex mix of feelings, whilst others have been deeply hurt or 
angered by false or misleading statements.

We have no intention of engaging in a point-by-point refutation of 
Mafalda/Sinead's remarks. One factual matter bears addressing, 
however.  Mafalda/Sinead alleged that Penny opposed a member's elf 
nomination because of that member's position on shipping. That is 
completely untrue. Because this allegation concerns a list member who 
is not a moderator, we believe it is appropriate to set the record 
straight on that point.

As a team, we can only repeat our previous assertions that: -

(a) we listen to and respond to questions or complaints if they are 
sent to us off list at magicalmods at yahoogroups.com;

(b) we aim to be fair and balanced in running the HPfGU lists;

(c) we are human: we make mistakes; we can also be hurt.

We would like to take this opportunity to thank everyone who has 
written in support of the HPfGU administration in relation to this 
matter, on list and off list.
  
We would also like to thank all those who have sent complaints, 
criticisms and comments to the HPFGU-Mod address.  We love hearing 
from you, even when we disagree with what you have to say, and often, 
what you have to say makes us think and affects the way this list is 
run.  So keep those cards & letters coming!

And now, please return to the active discussions on Saturday Night 
Live skits, palindromic moments of time and ice skating.

Magically,

Cindy C.
Catherine Coleman
Penny Linsenmayer
Kelley Thompson
John Walton
Neil Ward
Amy Z

The HPfGU Moderator Team




From UcfRentLuvr at cs.com  Thu Feb 21 21:08:46 2002
From: UcfRentLuvr at cs.com (UcfRentLuvr at cs.com)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 16:08:46 -0500
Subject: Favorite Saturday Night Live Skits
Message-ID: <0E25C131.7698B1C7.52A758FC@cs.com>

"moongirlk" <moongirlk at yahoo.com> wrote:
I stopped watching SNL for a long time in response to a particular 
sketch.  When I saw Massive Headwound Harry I knew I had to give up 
on SNL until something changed.  Anyone remember that one?  >>

Oh goodness, I remember that! Do you remember the one where the dog started chewing on his head thing? Yeah, a little gross there. :)


***Dixie Malfoy***





From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 21 21:22:35 2002
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (lupinesque)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 21:22:35 -0000
Subject: Favorite Saturday Night Live Skits
In-Reply-To: <a50sb9+md70@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a53oer+jv69@eGroups.com>

Barb wrote of SNL:

> I basically stopped watching because it just stopped being funny.  
> And even when they had bits that were mildly amusing, they didn't 
> know when to stop.  The same joke repeated eight times is not 
> funny.  It's not even very funny the second time.

I once read a Muppet Show writer saying that if a joke was too bad to 
be used once, sometimes they'd use it three times.  And you know, it 
worked--on The Muppet Show, which is way, way funnier than SNL. 
 
> MAD TV is MUCH better than SNL, and has some truly hysterical bits, 
> although it isn't quite as good as Living Color or SNL it its 
heyday 
> (but sometimes it comes close)

I only saw In Living Color a few times but liked it better than SNL 
too.  "Star Trek II: The Wrath of Farrakhan" is one of the best ST 
parodies I've ever seen (though SNL did a good one too).

Amy




From mjollner at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 21 21:31:27 2002
From: mjollner at yahoo.com (mjollner)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 21:31:27 -0000
Subject: Peter Cook & Sport/Nonsport
Message-ID: <a53ovf+ntaj@eGroups.com>

davewitley relayed a Peter Cook/Dudley Moore radio sketch:

I skimmed over your post, but the name "Peter Cook" rang no bell until 
I watched "The Princess Bride" last night for the umpteenth time, and 
noticed that he was The Impressive Clergyman.  "Mahwage, mahwage is 
what bwings us togethuh today..."  It shouldn't surprise me that he 
apparently had a long career as a comedian before that role; I just 
hadn't heard of him before.

And completely switching gears to the topic of what is and what isn't 
a sport...I just had a conversation with a Canadian coworker in which 
I asked him to explain to me the pastime of curling.  I watched a bit 
of it the other night, and...and...I just don't get it!  And 
furthermore, I don't understand why it is an Olympic sport!  It seems 
to me that very little physical exertion is required.  As I've never 
"curled" (is that the right term?), could someone who has enlighten 
me?  Is it just one of those things that's harder than it looks?

Mjollner




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 21 21:36:58 2002
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (lupinesque)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 21:36:58 -0000
Subject: Sport/Nonsport
In-Reply-To: <a53ovf+ntaj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a53p9q+ncpm@eGroups.com>

mjollner wrote:

> And completely switching gears to the topic of what is and what 
isn't 
> a sport...I just had a conversation with a Canadian coworker in 
which 
> I asked him to explain to me the pastime of curling.  I watched a 
bit 
> of it the other night, and...and...I just don't get it!  And 
> furthermore, I don't understand why it is an Olympic sport!  It 
seems 
> to me that very little physical exertion is required.  As I've 
never 
> "curled" (is that the right term?), could someone who has enlighten 
> me?  Is it just one of those things that's harder than it looks?

Hmmm...I don't know about the physical exertion, but IMO, skill is an 
adequate replacement.  Curling, like golf (which is not an Olympic 
sport) and shooting (which is), does not require a lot of physical 
exertion but does require tremendous physical skill.  

Amy
for whom walking up a small hill could be considered a sport if 
exertion were the only criterion <pant pant>




From meboriqua at aol.com  Thu Feb 21 21:42:20 2002
From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 21:42:20 -0000
Subject: Favorite Saturday Night Live Skits
In-Reply-To: <a536kv+tmo4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a53pjs+v7bc@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "moongirlk" <moongirlk at y...> wrote:
   
> Anyone else have a LEAST favorite SNL sketch?>

Yes!  I remember watching a bit of a sketch where Bill Clinton had 
called 911 because Hillary had beaten him up.  I think it was 
supposed to be a spoof of "Cops" but there was nothing funny about it 
at all.  It was embarrassingly offensive for many obvious reasons.

Another favorite - Wayne's World with Madonna.  I've probably seen 
that sketch on more channels more often than any other, but I still 
love it.

--jenny from ravenclaw **************************************




From andrew_macian at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 21 21:50:05 2002
From: andrew_macian at yahoo.com (Andrew MacIan)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 13:50:05 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Sport/Nonsport
In-Reply-To: <a53p9q+ncpm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20020221215005.86344.qmail@web9505.mail.yahoo.com>

Greetings from Andrew!

"I get *my* kicks *above* the waist-line, sunshine!"

--- lupinesque <aiz24 at hotmail.com> wrote:
> mjollner wrote:
> 
> > And completely switching gears to the topic of
> what is and what 
> isn't 
> > a sport...I just had a conversation with a
> Canadian coworker in 
> which 
> > I asked him to explain to me the pastime of
> curling.  I watched a 
> bit 
> > of it the other night, and...and...I just don't
> get it!  And 
> > furthermore, I don't understand why it is an
> Olympic sport!  It 
> seems 
> > to me that very little physical exertion is
> required.  As I've 
> never 
> > "curled" (is that the right term?), could someone
> who has enlighten 
> > me?  Is it just one of those things that's harder
> than it looks?
> 
> Hmmm...I don't know about the physical exertion, but
> IMO, skill is an 
> adequate replacement.  Curling, like golf (which is
> not an Olympic 
> sport) and shooting (which is), does not require a
> lot of physical 
> exertion but does require tremendous physical skill.

Also, per the IOC, chess is an Olympic-eligible sport.
 As to the exertion involved, I can testify that, at
my middle-ish level of the game, I get up from a
typical tournament game (roughly five hours or so)
temporarily exhausted physically and mentally.  The
second and last one for that day's schedule is about
two hours after the first finishes, BTW.  Tournaments
are usually three days long, so at the end I'm ready
to be picked up with a sponge {grin}.

But don't worry about my game being added to the
Winter/Summer Cycles; we've had a separate Chess
Olympiad since the 1920's that meets every two years.

>  
> 
> Amy
> for whom walking up a small hill could be considered
> a sport if 
> exertion were the only criterion <pant pant>

Ah, understood!  When in training for a competitive
summer (one in which I don't have classes/grad
students to keep on track) I usually spend about an
hour a day walking, just to build up endurance.

Between such regimens, everyplace on campus is up-hill
from every other! {grin}

Cheers,

Drieux

...now, where did I leave that oxygen tank?....

=====
ICQ # 76184391

'Each game of chess means there's one less
      Variation left to be played;
 Each day got through means one or two less
      Mistakes remain to be made.'
      --'Chess' by Sir Tim Rice

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games
http://sports.yahoo.com



From meboriqua at aol.com  Thu Feb 21 21:53:50 2002
From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 21:53:50 -0000
Subject: A question about Buffy
Message-ID: <a53q9e+atbt@eGroups.com>

Hey all -

First of all, if anyone responds to this, please please send it to me 
offlist.  This is, I think just too OT for people here to have to 
suffer through this.

I've been avidly watching Buffy since FX began airing it every 
weekday.  My boyfriend Raul loathes the show and cannot understand why 
I have become such a fan.  He really likes "Charmed" which we both 
watch every Thursday no matter what, but says Buffy is stupid.  I've 
been trying to explain to him what it is about Buffy that has so 
completely reeled me in.  Can any other Buffy fans here email me and 
explain why you think it's such a great show?  If I can explain it 
better to Raul, maybe I can get him hooked too.

Thanks!  And remember to please email me offlist.

--jenny from ravenclaw*************************************




From cindysphynx at home.com  Thu Feb 21 22:42:42 2002
From: cindysphynx at home.com (cindysphynx)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 22:42:42 -0000
Subject: Sport/Nonsport
In-Reply-To: <a53ovf+ntaj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a53t52+rqo7@eGroups.com>

MJollner wrote (regarding curling):

>I just don't get it!  And 
> furthermore, I don't understand why it is an Olympic sport!  It 
seems 
> to me that very little physical exertion is required.  

Oh goodness!  I hope they don't open the floodgates and puff up the 
Olympics with *more* non-sports.  I think physical exertion ought to 
be important.  So golf can stay if you have to carry your clubs.  (I 
understand golfers actually do get injuries and such, so that makes 
it physical enough for me).

Is shooting a sport?  Nope.  Board games (bridge and chess)?  With 
all due respect to Andrew, no.  Archery?  Well, OK, but only because 
you probably have to have serious arm muscles, and you're essentially 
using a device to throw something, which makes it completely 
different from the "aim and shoot" of shooting.  Bowling?  No way, 
have you seen these guys?

So IMO sports can stay in the Olympics if:

1.  There is an element of risk that something will go wrong;
2.  There is physical exertion (mental exertion isn't enough, because 
if it were, there would be an Olympic event called "Cross-
Examination");
3.  It is something people might actually do in real life (this rules 
out things like flinging a ribbon around while doing flips); and 
4.  People can watch it without snickering (this rules out 
synchronized swimming). 

Cindy (didn't think much of synchronized diving in the last Olympics 
because it was the same divers just doing much simpler dives)




From s_ings at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 21 15:30:04 2002
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (S_Ings)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 15:30:04 -0000
Subject: Being boring; public speaking
In-Reply-To: <001701c1b7e8$819b0340$d37c63d1@texas.net>
Message-ID: <a533ps+qlvp@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "Amanda" <editor at t...> wrote:
> > Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a Mike Gray) wrote:
> > >BTW, I'm curious: is the kind of person who hangs out on this
> > >kind of list typically good at acting and public speaking but
> > >rather shy in direct personal conversation??
> 
> Nope. In my case I'm a stay-at-home mom in a rural setting who has 
basically
> no other adult contact (other than my husband). At least, when I 
joined the
> list I was stay-at-home; now I work part-time and have no time, 
which
> explains the precipitous fall about 10 months ago in my rate of 
posting. But
> no, not particularly shy, people roll on the floor and laugh when I 
tell
> them I think I'm an introvert. Ask Sheryll, the one Neil thought was
> reserved (excuse me, I must go roll on the floor and laugh now).
> 
> --Amanda

I've been meaning to reply to this one, since I *was* asked. :)

Oddly enough, I consider myself an introvert as well. Actually, I've 
suffered from severe shyness on occasions. Those of you who promptly 
dropped to the floor, rolling with laughter.... Stop that! My mother 
nearly killed herself laughing when I relayed Neil's comment about 
thinking I'd be reserved. 

Amanda, I think we're in the same boat. These folks just won't 
believe we might be introverts. 

Sheryll, who doesn't let little things like shyness stop her from 
hopping on a bus and travelling for 48 hours just to meet Amanda, 
sight unseen :D




From andrew_macian at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 22 00:42:03 2002
From: andrew_macian at yahoo.com (Andrew MacIan)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 16:42:03 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Sport/Nonsport
In-Reply-To: <a53t52+rqo7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20020222004203.8669.qmail@web9506.mail.yahoo.com>

Greetings from Andrew!

"...and that move got a 5.7 from the Manx judge!  The
crowd is going crazy!"
--- cindysphynx <cindysphynx at home.com> wrote:
> MJollner wrote (regarding curling):
> 
> >I just don't get it!  And 
> > furthermore, I don't understand why it is an
> Olympic sport!  It 
> seems 
> > to me that very little physical exertion is
> required.  
> 
> Oh goodness!  I hope they don't open the floodgates
> and puff up the 
> Olympics with *more* non-sports.  I think physical
> exertion ought to 
> be important.  So golf can stay if you have to carry
> your clubs.  (I 
> understand golfers actually do get injuries and
> such, so that makes 
> it physical enough for me).

Per the American PGA, the players have to walk, but
can use caddys to carry their clubs.  The one
exception-- a gent who's name I am sadly repressing--
got the SC to grant a waiver under the Americans with
Disabilities Act so that he can use a powered cart.

So, if golf were to be a demo sport, the rules would
have to amended to include the players carrying their
own bags.  However, the argument can be made that
doing so will erode the quality of play after 16+
holes of lugging the bag will tire the players.

Wutsie-wutsie.

> 
> Is shooting a sport?  Nope.

Erm.  Given your basic definition below, permit me to
disagree here, and agree below.  In the old days, one
of the first modern events was then called the
Military Event, and is now Modern Pentathlon
(swimming, running, riding, fencing and, um, pistol). 
This was held to be the equivalent in modern terms of
the javelin, discus, archery, running and swimming
events from the original games, as those were required
skills for Hellenic soldiers. There was enough
interest in generic shooting to open up the range of
events.  These days, the weapons used, like the bows
used in the archery events, have lost all but the most
generic relationship to those used in combat as to be
ludicrous.  For example, the pistol used in Pentath is
a .22 cal, heavily counterbalanced weapon that masses
about 2 kg and little perceived recoil; the side arm I
carried was
the classic .45 cal Colt that masses 4+ kg and can rip
your arm of its socket (much like a Wookie).

I won't touch the relationship between an epee and a
rapier.

>  Board games (bridge and
> chess)?  With 
> all due respect to Andrew, no.

Thanks {grin}.  As mentioned, we have our own every
two years.  The IOC recognition was more of a support
thing than any effort to get into the Olympics.

>  Archery?  Well, OK,
> but only because 
> you probably have to have serious arm muscles, and
> you're essentially 
> using a device to throw something, which makes it
> completely 
> different from the "aim and shoot" of shooting.

Vide supra.  However, the draw weight of most
compititve bows, IIRC, is only about 40 lbs at 28
inches, per FITA regs.
 
> Bowling?  No way, 
> have you seen these guys?
> 

"I'm pleased to know you.  Ordinarily, to meet someone
of your quality, one would have to visit a bowling
alley."

> So IMO sports can stay in the Olympics if:
> 
> 1.  There is an element of risk that something will
> go wrong;

Concur.

> 2.  There is physical exertion (mental exertion
> isn't enough, because 
> if it were, there would be an Olympic event called
> "Cross-
> Examination");

Concur, but recall that playing chess at the top is a
*very* real test of endurance.

> 3.  It is something people might actually do in real
> life (this rules 
> out things like flinging a ribbon around while doing
> flips); and 

Thus, the Modern Pentathlon and shooting sports
(grin).
How about biathlon, BTW?

> 4.  People can watch it without snickering (this
> rules out 
> synchronized swimming). 
>
 
Indeed so!

> Cindy (didn't think much of synchronized diving in
> the last Olympics 
> because it was the same divers just doing much
> simpler dives)
Concur again.

I have written you a long response....

Cheers,

Drieux

=====
ICQ # 76184391

'Each game of chess means there's one less
      Variation left to be played;
 Each day got through means one or two less
      Mistakes remain to be made.'
      --'Chess' by Sir Tim Rice

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games
http://sports.yahoo.com



From john at walton.vu  Fri Feb 22 00:29:27 2002
From: john at walton.vu (John Walton)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 00:29:27 +0000
Subject: John Thaw (Inspector Morse) died today
In-Reply-To: <a53t52+rqo7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <B89B4167.ADCA%john@walton.vu>

Just an FYI -- John Thaw, the actor who played Inspector Morse, died today
of esophagal cancer. More info at:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/entertainment/tv_and_radio/newsid_1834000/1
834901.stm

He'll be missed.

--John




From devin.smither at yale.edu  Fri Feb 22 01:30:35 2002
From: devin.smither at yale.edu (uilnslcoap)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 01:30:35 -0000
Subject: Rupert/the movie
In-Reply-To: <a52l1g+fkrb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a546vr+edd2@eGroups.com>

> What I'm trying to do is to decide whether Rupert is good compared 
to 
> other GOOD actors. Could he compete with child actors such as 
Elijah 
> Wood or what's-his-name Osmond? I'm not sure. Maybe he seemd so 
cute 
> (and like he actually knows how to act) because Emma was so awful 
and 
> Dan was so.. boring. 

She was really awful, wasn't she?  And Dan really was lifeless, no 
verve, no nothing.  I think Grint probably could stand in the shoes 
of Osment and Wood (I don't know if anyone will ever replace Ron 
Howard as my favorite child actor, though--did you ever watch the 
Andy Griffith Show?  He had so much heart and talent, that kid did, 
and now he's a good director).  What convinces me of this is his "you 
have to make sacrifices to win" speech on the chess board.  He didn't 
make it all weepy, nor did he make himself steely-eyed brave.  No, he 
toed the line.  He was very frightened of what he was about to do, 
but that didn't stop him from doing it.  Really was good, that one 
little scene was (just him, though, I didn't relish the rack-em, 
smack-em, look-it's-so-cinematic chess-pieces-broken-to-pieces 
business).  So yes, I think he might be actually a good actor, and 
not just a spot of mediocrity amidst lots of below-average.

> I agree about Harris, btw. No twinkle at all.

I knew it, I knew it, I knew it!  Thanks for the verification.

> What did you think of Robby Coltrane? Hagrid was only right on the 
> outside, wasn't he? For me, the whole point of Hagrid is that he's 
> even bigger inside than outside. They put a lot of effort into 
making 
> Hagrid physically big, but that was it. As far as personality goes, 
> he was reduced to being slightly comical and completely flat 
> otherwise. 

Definitely.  I miss the Hagrid that howled when he had to leave Harry 
on the doorstep with the Dursleys.  I guess, knowing Columbus's work, 
I should be grateful the howl wasn't left in as he would have made it 
into some sort of comical moment.  Still, they made Hagrid into 
nothing, and he was so gosh-darn loveable in the books.  It's too bad 
because the grown-up cast really was inspired for the most part in 
terms of the way they look (and their acting capability).  Robbie 
Coltrane is really absolutely perfect-looking for the job and he's a 
good actor as well.  I don't really know what to blame it on.  I 
guess it was the direction.  It made the whole business feel pretty 
insipid.  Speaking of which...
 
> I guess that's really what I feel about the movie - that it's all 
> outside and no inside. Good scenery, good props, an impressive list 
> of actors, fine visual effects, famous director.. but Dumbledore 
has 
> no twinkle, Hagrid is without his big heart,  Harry is without 
> character, Hermione is almost diametrically not herself.. and in 
> general nothing is left of the specifically HP-ish humor and spirit.

It really just completely lacks the FUN of the books.  It feels 
awfully heavy-handed and without a light touch.  I am constantly 
amazed by Rowling's ability to handle the comic and the highly 
dramatic and keep the whole thing so well-balanced.  That was utterly 
absent here.  The funny wasn't funny (except for Grint) and the 
dramatic was usually overdone or hammy or entirely lacking (except 
for Grint).  The bad thing is, I think I felt Columbus trying to 
avoid some bad pitfalls, and he did.  He left off the sugar that's 
been customary in his movies, but he didn't put anything in instead.  
Left it rather hollow if you ask me, and he just got lucky with 
Rupert (that wonderul boy, I could hug him for making a lot of that 
movie bearable).

Lest I say nothing else good about the movie, I did get one thing out 
of it.  I really hadn't thought about the fact that Harry is playing 
Quidditch against, well, 16 and 17-year-olds.  That, in fact, did 
leave me taking one thing back to the books, but that's about it.  Ah 
well.

Devin, who's roommate liked Emma Watson...he can never look at him 
the same way again




From rhiannon333 at hotmail.com  Fri Feb 22 02:25:55 2002
From: rhiannon333 at hotmail.com (rhiannon333au)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 02:25:55 -0000
Subject: Thank you Magical Mods
In-Reply-To: <a53mq2+42t3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a54a7j+kv2u@eGroups.com>

>From an inveterate lurker, who nonetheless is very grateful to the 
HPFGU list owner/s for allowing me to have so much 
entertainment, stimulation and enjoyment at their house over the 
past year and more, and to meet such fascinating people. And to 
the Magical Mods, who keep bringing out the savouries and 
refilling the drinks, discreetly clearing away debris and spills, so 
that the guests do not even notice the efforts to keep the party so 
much fun. As someone who has run many organisations and 
clubs over the years (too many!), and held many parties, I 
appreciate the behind the scenes work and dedication, and 
wanted to thank publicly (though so inadequately!) those 
generous souls who make it all possible. This is especially true 
with the exponential growth of the list membership in recent 
times, so that attention to rules is essential to avoid the chaos 
and disintegration of so many other large lists. Thank you for 
keeping our lists so much fun!

A virtual bouquet and a box of your favourite Honeyduke 
chocolates to each of you as a token thank you.

Megan 




From lordzenya at aol.com  Fri Feb 22 02:48:22 2002
From: lordzenya at aol.com (lord_zenya)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 02:48:22 -0000
Subject: Groups?
Message-ID: <a54bhm+ovqf@eGroups.com>

I thought since this is an off-topic group, 
this would be a good place to ask, 

Does anyone know the max groups you can 
belong to, or before it starts costing money.

And does it cost money to be an owner of a group.

I am sorry if this is the wrong place 
for asking this, but I couldn't 
find the answers, in the Yahoo! Help.

Thanks




From ganvira at earthlink.net  Fri Feb 22 03:02:19 2002
From: ganvira at earthlink.net (Terry van Ettinger)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 19:02:19 -0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Groups?
References: <a54bhm+ovqf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <009301c1bb4d$57c52ba0$0797cd18@charterpipeline.com>

> Does anyone know the max groups you can
> belong to, or before it starts costing money.
I don't think they charge for group membership, even if you have a *lot* of
groups.  I was on upwards of 20 lists for a while, and have never been
charged.  I think Yahoo only charges for high-capacity mailboxes and phone
services.

> And does it cost money to be an owner of a group.
No, anyone can start groups for free.  They will, however, eventually kill a
group if no one uses it after a certain amount of time.

Regards,
Terry




From Joanne0012 at aol.com  Fri Feb 22 03:12:20 2002
From: Joanne0012 at aol.com (joanne0012)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 03:12:20 -0000
Subject: A question about Buffy
In-Reply-To: <a53q9e+atbt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a54cuk+4b17@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "jenny_ravenclaw" <meboriqua at a...> wrote:
>   I've 
> been trying to explain to him what it is about Buffy that has so 
> completely reeled me in.  Can any other Buffy fans here email me and 
> explain why you think it's such a great show?  If I can explain it 
> better to Raul, maybe I can get him hooked too.

Sorry to ignore your request to e-mail offlist, but my theory is less OT than 
you'd expect.  I think Buffy has a lot in commmon with Harry.  Both creations 
feature wistful little individuals who have been specially selected (by mysterious 
processes) to go up against major bad guys in a world-within-a-world that most 
people around them are oblivious to, even though it's right under their noses.  
Buffy's world isn't entirely consistent with cultural myths (just as Harry's world 
isn't) but it *does* posess a tremendously complex and consistent structure of 
its own that enables the audience to suspend disbelief, since they can identify as 
being one of the "outsiders" who are being permitted a peek at this special 
supernatural world.  Also, Buffy has a great sense of humor and irony.




From kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk  Fri Feb 22 03:19:15 2002
From: kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk (Kathryn)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 03:19:15 -0000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Groups?
References: <a54bhm+ovqf@eGroups.com> <009301c1bb4d$57c52ba0$0797cd18@charterpipeline.com>
Message-ID: <003a01c1bb4f$b5d61040$8c4386d9@monica>

I'm a member of 21 groups currently and I'm not charged, if there is a maximum I thin it's very high, as I've been on more than this in the past.

K
If an advisor says to me "My liege, he is but one man. What can one man possibly do?", I will reply "This." and kill the advisor.
http://minievil.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Terry van Ettinger 
  To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, February 22, 2002 3:02 AM
  Subject: Re: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Groups?


  > Does anyone know the max groups you can
  > belong to, or before it starts costing money.
  I don't think they charge for group membership, even if you have a *lot* of
  groups.  I was on upwards of 20 lists for a while, and have never been
  charged.  I think Yahoo only charges for high-capacity mailboxes and phone
  services.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From moongirlk at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 22 06:27:26 2002
From: moongirlk at yahoo.com (moongirlk)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 06:27:26 -0000
Subject: work, perform, win/quit, sue, kill.... welcome to the olympics
Message-ID: <a54oce+p4hc@eGroups.com>

I just had the best time watching Sarah Hughes surprise even herself 
to win the Gold medal!  By the end of her program I was on my feet in 
my livingroom bouncing up and down and cheering like an idiot - it 
was, literally, the most beautiful program I've ever seen in women's 
singles skating, in large part because of her obvious joy throughout 
the program.  I immediately called my mom to say "yippee that was 
fun!", and then I held my breath through the rest of it trying to 
decide what I wanted to see happen.  Then after it was all over I 
called my sister and said "Yippee" again (we're all fanatics).  That 
kind of thing is the whole reason I watch the olympics.  Like 
watching Simon Aman win the ski jumping competitions - to see someone 
emerge as the best in the world is really an amazing thing, and extra 
fun when even they don't expect it.  

So anyway, I'm all on a high, and then they start reporting on the 
Russians threatening to pull out and boycott not only the rest of 
this Olympics but the next Olympics as well.  Bummer.  For the 
Russian atheletes.  Who else do they think they'll hurt by refusing 
to allow them to participate?  

Then they report that the Koreans are threatening to leave, and to 
sue the ref (or judge or whatever they call those guys) who 
disqualified their short-track skater.  

And THEN they report that the FBI is having to investigate *death 
threats* against Apollo Ohno because of it.  As if he made the call?  
As if a *race* is worth killing over?  I think Ohno's shown himself 
to be a good sportsman, too.  How must it feel to know people want 
you dead because of something so stupid?  So contest the ruling, 
fine, but sue the ref?  Kill the other skater?  Whatever.

Some people know how to take all the fun out of things.

kimberly
Too thrilled for Sarah Hughes to care about fools who can't contest a 
ruling without throwing a tantrum.





From Joanne0012 at aol.com  Fri Feb 22 12:09:48 2002
From: Joanne0012 at aol.com (joanne0012)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 12:09:48 -0000
Subject: work, perform, win/quit, sue, kill.... welcome to the olympics
In-Reply-To: <a54oce+p4hc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a55cec+h36r@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "moongirlk" <moongirlk at y...> wrote:
> I just had the best time watching Sarah Hughes surprise even herself 
> to win the Gold medal!  By the end of her program I was on my feet in 
> my livingroom bouncing up and down and cheering like an idiot - it 
> was, literally, the most beautiful program I've ever seen in women's 
> singles skating, in large part because of her obvious joy throughout 
> the program.  

I agree completely, except for the part about bouncing up and down.  But I would 
have enjoyed it more if I hadn't been so heartbroken for Kwan.  OTOH, part of me 
was glad that Cohen didn't medal, she just seems like a disagreeable person, and 
everyone at my house thought her outfit was the ugliest ever.




From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Fri Feb 22 13:04:49 2002
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 13:04:49 -0000
Subject: A question about Buffy
In-Reply-To: <a54cuk+4b17@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a55flh+514p@eGroups.com>

Jenny:
> >Can any other Buffy fans here email me and 
> > explain why you think it's such a great show?  > 

Joanne: 
> Buffy's world  *does* posess a tremendously complex and consistent 
structure of its own that enables the audience to suspend disbelief 
etc.

Banned topics aside, how can something be 'too OT'?

What the average male viewer sees is a geeky loser who gets to hang 
out with four extremely pretty girls.  Of course, Raul, like me, 
would be above that, so this is an irrelevant and unhelpful comment.

But then this is 'OT'.

David




From meboriqua at aol.com  Fri Feb 22 14:13:42 2002
From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 14:13:42 -0000
Subject: Sarah Hughes - from my home town!
Message-ID: <a55jmm+aqit@eGroups.com>

Did anyone else watch the figure skating last night?  While I was 
really rooting for Sasha Cohen (I think she has more talent than any 
of them), I was pleased that Sarah Hughes won the Gold.  She's from my 
home town, Great Neck!  When they did a piece on her, it was fun to 
see the shots of Great Neck and to know exactly where everything was.

--jenny from ravenclaw**************************************




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Fri Feb 22 14:19:12 2002
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catorman)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 14:19:12 -0000
Subject: A question about Buffy
In-Reply-To: <a55flh+514p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a55k10+l2vl@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "davewitley" <dfrankiswork at n...> wrote:
> Jenny:
> > >Can any other Buffy fans here email me and 
> > > explain why you think it's such a great show?  > 
> 
> Joanne: 
> > Buffy's world  *does* posess a tremendously complex and 
consistent 
> structure of its own that enables the audience to suspend disbelief 
> etc.
> 
> Banned topics aside, how can something be 'too OT'?
> 
> What the average male viewer sees is a geeky loser who gets to hang 
> out with four extremely pretty girls.  Of course, Raul, like me, 
> would be above that, so this is an irrelevant and unhelpful comment.
> 
> But then this is 'OT'.
> 
> David

Yes, but one of them only likes men who either have a very dark side 
and are preferably not human, two of them are gay, and he's about to 
get married to the other one, so that is a bit simplistic!

But yes, I agree with the sentiment - nothing can be OT on here.

Catherine




From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Fri Feb 22 14:29:28 2002
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 14:29:28 -0000
Subject: A question about Buffy
In-Reply-To: <a55k10+l2vl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a55kk8+mj78@eGroups.com>

Catherine wrote, about Xander's friends:
> 
> Yes, but one of them only likes men who either have a very dark 
side and are preferably not human, two of them are gay, and he's 
about to get married to the other one, so that is a bit simplistic!

Men! They're so simplistic!  What's a girl to do?

David




From cindysphynx at home.com  Fri Feb 22 14:57:23 2002
From: cindysphynx at home.com (cindysphynx)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 14:57:23 -0000
Subject: The Waaahhh!-nter Olympics (WAS  Sarah Hughes - from my home town!)
In-Reply-To: <a55jmm+aqit@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a55m8j+qq7a@eGroups.com>

My goodness!  So much whining, crying, complaining and protesting!

The Russians are threatening to boycott the hockey game tonight.  
They are mad that one of their athletes got caught with a high 
homoglobin, that they drew some hockey penalty, and that their pairs 
voting block disintegrated because the French Judge forgot to take 
her meds. Waaahhhh!

The Koreans are protesting the short track gold medal they fought, 
hiring a lawyer to file suit in federal district court in the U.S.  I 
wish I could be on the jury for that one.  Waaaahhh!  

Jenny wrote:

> Did anyone else watch the figure skating last night?  While I was 
> really rooting for Sasha Cohen (I think she has more talent than 
any 
> of them), I was pleased that Sarah Hughes won the Gold.  

Yes, I saw the figure skating, and I was delighted at how it all 
turned out.  I love Michelle, but she was nowhere *close* to Gold 
Medal quality.  Slutskaya was, um, just . . . well, don't make me say 
it.  (I was really amused that Slutskaya plopped down in the Kiss & 
Cry area and put on her Red Russia team jacket -- was she cold or 
something?)  I like Cohen, but she needs to keep quiet about how 
great she is and how confident she is until she has . . . actually 
won something.  I hope she doesn't put too much effort into her quad 
jump training, because she definitely doesn't need it to win.

There definitely is something weird about the scoring system, 
though.  Let's say Slutskaya had been a disaster and landed no 
triples at all (or suffered an injury halfway through her program).  
Assume everyone else skates exactly the same way.  Why on earth 
should that mean that Kwan gets the gold and Hughes gets silver?  Why 
don't they just add the points in the short and the points in the 
long, weight them in some reasonable way, and declare a winner, 
regardless of who beats whom in the long program?  I don't get it.

Anyway, it was the correct result, without a doubt, thank goodness.  
Sarah Hughes is so humble and seems so nice.  Besides, she just 
*might* have hung up on the president.  I've *always* wanted to have 
the chance to hang up on the president.  :-)

Now, I have to hope that Sarah doesn't retire.  What is with everyone 
retiring the instant they win an Olympic gold medal?  She's only 16, 
so I hope she skates at Worlds and continues on for several more 
years.  Slutskaya, Kwan and Butryskaya will all retire, so the path 
to at least one World Championship is wide open for Hughes.

Oh, and Jennifer Robinson had the best skating dress by a country 
mile.  All white, no sequins.  Beautiful!  Maybe Kwan and Slutskaya 
would have hit their jumps had they not been weighed down by 5 pounds 
of sequins and other hardware.  Sarah gets second place in the lovely 
dress competition, Cohen and Kwan tie for third, and Slutskaya . . . 
ahem.

Cindy (who has decided that flesh-colored netting must be a *lot* 
cheaper than actual fabric, so skaters cover themselves in netting as 
a cost-cutting measure)





From ganvira at earthlink.net  Fri Feb 22 15:00:48 2002
From: ganvira at earthlink.net (Terry van Ettinger)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 07:00:48 -0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] work, perform, win/quit, sue, kill.... welcome to the olympics
References: <a54oce+p4hc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <003801c1bbb1$b6b36460$0797cd18@charterpipeline.com>

I agree wholeheartedly with you there.  When I heard your message last night
on net-by-phone, I wanted to reply, but didn't want to bombard you with an
all-uppercase message (net-by-phone hasn't developed case distinctions yet),
and to try to use my PC at the time would have destroyed what I was doing on
my CD burner, so now I finally get to respond.  '-)  People really need to
learn to take a loss when they get it, and use it to decide what they could
do better in the future, and if a ruling does need to be contested, it ought
to be done in a sensible, calm, fair fashion.  Threatening one's opponents
or bringing up a lawsuit isn't the way to win friends and influence people.
If anything, it's a very good way to alienate people who might, having heard
both sides of a situation, have been willing to take a second look.  But
yes, Sarah's performance was just fascinating!  I called my mom and was
talking to her when they gave the marks.  And then when it came down to that
3-way tie..............I just sat there waiting for the decision...then
called back again!  That was *really* something!  Especially considering she
came out of 4th place in the short program!  I love it when they do that; I
think you and I look for a lot of the same things in olympic competition.
My favorite parts, just like you said, are the parts where the less-likely
candidate gets up there and just gives it everything they've got, and makes
the veterans just kind of step back.

Terry
----- > I just had the best time watching Sarah Hughes surprise even herself
> to win the Gold medal!  By the end of her program I was on my feet in
> my livingroom bouncing up and down and cheering like an idiot - it
> was, literally, the most beautiful program I've ever seen in women's
> singles skating, in large part because of her obvious joy throughout
> the program.  I immediately called my mom to say "yippee that was
> fun!", and then I held my breath through the rest of it trying to
> decide what I wanted to see happen.  Then after it was all over I
> called my sister and said "Yippee" again (we're all fanatics).  That
> kind of thing is the whole reason I watch the olympics.  Like
> watching Simon Aman win the ski jumping competitions - to see someone
> emerge as the best in the world is really an amazing thing, and extra
> fun when even they don't expect it.
<Snip>
So contest the ruling,
> fine, but sue the ref?  Kill the other skater?  Whatever.
>
> Some people know how to take all the fun out of things.
>
> kimberly
> Too thrilled for Sarah Hughes to care about fools who can't contest a
> ruling without throwing a tantrum.
>
>
>
>
> ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________
>
> Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the group's Admin Files!
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/
>
> Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material
from posts to which you're replying!
>
> Is your message...
> An announcement of merchandise, news etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements.
> Movie-related? Send it to HPFGU-Movie.
> Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups.
> None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter.
> Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods --
MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com
>
> Unsubscribing? Email HPFGU-OTChatter-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
> ____________________________________________________________
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>




From kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk  Fri Feb 22 15:16:38 2002
From: kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk (Kathryn)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 15:16:38 -0000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: The Waaahhh!-nter Olympics (WAS  Sarah Hughes - from my home town!)
References: <a55m8j+qq7a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <001e01c1bbb3$edb3acc0$5c4886d9@monica>

To be fair to the Russians not all their complaints are totally out of order. Yes they are complaining that their athletes failed the haemoglobin test thing for which they deserve to be smacked but what they're most pissed off at is that they were told about the results so close to the relay event that they couldn't get the reserves there in time and the whole team (who were almost dead certs for the gold) had to pull out, which was a piece of bad organization if you ask me (which you didn't). I feel so sorry for the two who didn't fail the test, especially if it turns out later the failures didn't do anything wrong. I mean missing out on a medal because you were accused of doing something you didn't is one thing, but missing out because someone else was accused of doing something they didn't would be so awful.
I bet the hockey team are pleased though, hang on our skaters and skiers missed out on gold, so you're not going to let us try and win one? Piss off a group of guys with body armour and big sticks, not the best plan!

K
If an advisor says to me "My liege, he is but one man. What can one man possibly do?", I will reply "This." and kill the advisor.
http://minievil.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: cindysphynx 
  To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, February 22, 2002 2:57 PM
  Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: The Waaahhh!-nter Olympics (WAS Sarah Hughes - from my home town!)


  My goodness!  So much whining, crying, complaining and protesting!

  The Russians are threatening to boycott the hockey game tonight.  
  They are mad that one of their athletes got caught with a high 
  homoglobin, that they drew some hockey penalty, and that their pairs 
  voting block disintegrated because the French Judge forgot to take 
  her meds. Waaahhhh!



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From ganvira at earthlink.net  Fri Feb 22 15:12:46 2002
From: ganvira at earthlink.net (Terry van Ettinger)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 07:12:46 -0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: The Waaahhh!-nter Olympics (WAS  Sarah Hughes - from my home town!)
References: <a55m8j+qq7a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <005601c1bbb3$628e0820$0797cd18@charterpipeline.com>

Hung up on the President?  Huh?  Was there some little visual thing I
missed?  My vision is limited, so I mostly just see the actual skating; all
the little scenes that come after are lost on me.  I know there was the part
in the Opening Ceremonies where one of the skaters was *standing* by Bush
with a cel phone or something...is that what you're referring to?

Terry
> Besides, she just
> *might* have hung up on the president.  I've *always* wanted to have
> the chance to hang up on the president.  :-)
>
> Now, I have to hope that Sarah doesn't retire.  What is with everyone
> retiring the instant they win an Olympic gold medal?  She's only 16,
> so I hope she skates at Worlds and continues on for several more
> years.  Slutskaya, Kwan and Butryskaya will all retire, so the path
> to at least one World Championship is wide open for Hughes.
>
> Oh, and Jennifer Robinson had the best skating dress by a country
> mile.  All white, no sequins.  Beautiful!  Maybe Kwan and Slutskaya
> would have hit their jumps had they not been weighed down by 5 pounds
> of sequins and other hardware.  Sarah gets second place in the lovely
> dress competition, Cohen and Kwan tie for third, and Slutskaya . . .
> ahem.
>
> Cindy (who has decided that flesh-colored netting must be a *lot*
> cheaper than actual fabric, so skaters cover themselves in netting as
> a cost-cutting measure)
>
>
>
>
> ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________
>
> Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the group's Admin Files!
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/
>
> Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material
from posts to which you're replying!
>
> Is your message...
> An announcement of merchandise, news etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements.
> Movie-related? Send it to HPFGU-Movie.
> Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups.
> None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter.
> Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods --
MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com
>
> Unsubscribing? Email HPFGU-OTChatter-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
> ____________________________________________________________
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>




From bonnie at niche-associates.com  Fri Feb 22 15:50:37 2002
From: bonnie at niche-associates.com (dicentra_spectabilis_alba)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 15:50:37 -0000
Subject: Favorite Saturday Night Live Skits
In-Reply-To: <a50pdl+311r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a55pcd+vuir@eGroups.com>

My favorite is William Shatner at the Star Trek Convention, telling
trekkies to "get a life."

--Dicentra, who shudders to think that JKR could tell us the same
thing... Nah!




From ganvira at earthlink.net  Fri Feb 22 16:01:05 2002
From: ganvira at earthlink.net (Terry van Ettinger)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 08:01:05 -0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: The Waaahhh!-nter Olympics (WAS  Sarah Hughes - from my home town!)
References: <a55m8j+qq7a@eGroups.com> <001e01c1bbb3$edb3acc0$5c4886d9@monica>
Message-ID: <00e201c1bbba$224f0640$0797cd18@charterpipeline.com>

True, but if there were some who tested positive, they shouldn't have been
doing anything to pull them out in the first place.  If there's anyone they
need to be especially pissed at, it's the athlete(s) who failed the test.
Had the athletes not failed the test, the results they received would not
have required the use of reserves, and they would have gone on as planned,
and very possibly won their medal.  And in my opinion, it's the country's
responsibility to make sure their athletes aren't doping *before* they even
come to the Olympics to begin with.  So it sounds to me as though in that
case that the athletes should be pissed at their own country's officials for
not attending to that matter in advance.

Terry
> To be fair to the Russians not all their complaints are totally out of
order. Yes they are complaining that their athletes failed the haemoglobin
test thing for which they deserve to be smacked but what they're most pissed
off at is that they were told about the results so close to the relay event
that they couldn't get the reserves there in time and the whole team (who
were almost dead certs for the gold) had to pull out, ...




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Fri Feb 22 16:09:37 2002
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (milztoday)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 16:09:37 -0000
Subject: Sarah Hughes - from my home town!
In-Reply-To: <a55jmm+aqit@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a55qg1+3rbq@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "jenny_ravenclaw" <meboriqua at a...> wrote:
> Did anyone else watch the figure skating last night?  While I was 
> really rooting for Sasha Cohen (I think she has more talent than 
any 
> of them), I was pleased that Sarah Hughes won the Gold.  She's from 
my 
> home town, Great Neck!  When they did a piece on her, it was fun to 
> see the shots of Great Neck and to know exactly where everything 
was.
> 
> --jenny from ravenclaw**************************************

Actually, I was rooting for Sarah Hughes last night. She's been more 
consistent than Sasha Cohen (who reminds me of Nicole Bobek for some 
reason...) and she's beaten Michelle and Irina this season. Her 
fourth place scores on the short program were lower because she was 
the first of the elite to skate...and we all know how the judges love 
to leave room for the top! 

Out of all of them, Sarah's performance was more relaxed and 
controlled. Even when she took the ice, she looked relaxed whereas 
the others looked like they were about to give birth to Voldemort's 
baby;-)

Robinson's skating dress: looked alot like Nancy Kerrigan's skating 
dress in either the 92 Olympics or the 93 Worlds. That plain, white 
bodice with the see-through white sleeves.

That whole scoring system is weird. I never understood it. But I 
guess they had to do something with the scoring when they got rid of 
the compulsory figures in the late 80s. The scoring system that 
they're proposing now sounds just as weird and confusing. Really they 
should have the technical count for x% and the artistic count for x% 
of the total score. Skip the ordinals completely.

I think if they want to make part of the competion less subjective 
they should bring back the compulsory figures, where the skaters had 
to trace specific patterns using the different edges of their skates. 
I mean face it, if Peggy Fleming didn't have to do the figures, she 
wouldn't have won the Gold in '68. 

Milz 




From moongirlk at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 22 16:34:16 2002
From: moongirlk at yahoo.com (moongirlk)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 16:34:16 -0000
Subject: The Waaahhh!-nter Olympics (WAS  Sarah Hughes - from my home town!)
In-Reply-To: <001e01c1bbb3$edb3acc0$5c4886d9@monica>
Message-ID: <a55ru8+olvg@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "Kathryn" <kcawte at k...> wrote:
> To be fair to the Russians not all their complaints are totally out 
of order. <snip explanation of relay issue>

I agree with you.  They have some legitimate complaints, and if 
they'd dealt with them with some dignity, decorum, or even just a 
touch of maturity, I'd care.  Especially with the cross-country 
skier, who legitimately might have done nothing wrong (I understand 
the elevated hemoglobin levels can occur naturally sometimes).  But 
when they threaten to take their ball and stomp off home, hurting 
their own athletes more than anyone else, I just can't be bothered 
with them.  

> I bet the hockey team are pleased though, hang on our skaters and 
skiers missed out on gold, so you're not going to let us try and win 
one? Piss off a group of guys with body armour and big sticks, not 
the best plan!

Hee!

Jenny from Ravenclaw said:

>Did anyone else watch the figure skating last night? While I was 
>really rooting for Sasha Cohen (I think she has more talent than any 
>of them), I was pleased that Sarah Hughes won the Gold.

Cohen is really talented, and I think she's going to push all the 
other skaters to their limits, but I don't enjoy watching her as much 
as I do Sarah Hughes.  The best way I can describe it is that Cohen 
skates with precision and determination, but Hughes skates with joy.  
I think the results were just right this time, and Hughes was so 
sweet about it all!

Cindy said:
>There definitely is something weird about the scoring system, 
>though. Let's say Slutskaya had been a disaster and landed no 
>triples at all (or suffered an injury halfway through her program). 
>Assume everyone else skates exactly the same way. Why on earth 
>should that mean that Kwan gets the gold and Hughes gets silver? Why 
>don't they just add the points in the short and the points in the 
>long, weight them in some reasonable way, and declare a winner, 
>regardless of who beats whom in the long program? I don't get it.  
>Anyway, it was the correct result, without a doubt, thank goodness. 
>Sarah Hughes is so humble and seems so nice.

All I can say is "ditto".  When they announced Slutskaya's scores and 
showed Hughes I was on the phone with my mom, and I kept saying -
 "Does that mean she won?  Are you sure she won??"  It shouldn't be 
that hard to figure out who won.  Maybe we'll get lucky and they'll 
get rid of the weird ordinal portion of the scoring when they revamp 
the judging. I totally agree about Sarah Hughes.  She's so normal and 
happy and I'm thrilled for her.

>Oh, and Jennifer Robinson had the best skating dress by a country 
>mile. All white, no sequins. Beautiful! Maybe Kwan and Slutskaya 
>would have hit their jumps had they not been weighed down by 5 
>pounds of sequins and other hardware. Sarah gets second place in the 
>lovely dress competition, Cohen and Kwan tie for third, and 
>Slutskaya . . . ahem.

Agreed.  The women's finals were much more consistant with our taste 
rules than the ice dancers, but there was still way too much flesh-
tone netting and rather a lot of random sparkly stuff.

Terry said:

>People really need to learn to take a loss when they get it, and use 
>it to decide what they could do better in the future, and if a 
>ruling does need to be contested, it ought to be done in a sensible, 
>calm, fair fashion. Threatening one's opponents or bringing up a 
>lawsuit isn't the way to win friends and influence people.  If 
>anything, it's a very good way to alienate people who might, having 
>heard both sides of a situation, have been willing to take a second 
>look.

Exactly.  If I knew where to send it, I'd forward this along to a 
couple of people!

kimberly
looking forward to the exhibitions where everyone can let loose and 
have a good time.




From kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk  Fri Feb 22 16:41:57 2002
From: kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk (Kathryn)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 16:41:57 -0000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: The Waaahhh!-nter Olympics (WAS  Sarah Hughes - from my home town!)
References: <a55m8j+qq7a@eGroups.com> <001e01c1bbb3$edb3acc0$5c4886d9@monica> <00e201c1bbba$224f0640$0797cd18@charterpipeline.com>
Message-ID: <003601c1bbbf$d90f70e0$5c4886d9@monica>

They didn't exactly "test positive" since that implies that a banned substance was found in their blood, they simply had higher than the legal limit of red blood cells in the test for which there may (or may not, I don't know but I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt here to a certain extent) be a perfectly natural explaination. The Russian Federation (who aren't exactly a reliable source but at the moment they're all we have) say that it is due to the athletes monthly cycle. After all the problems they've had with drugs testing over the last few years, especially with Nandralone (spelling anyone?) I have trouble believing that a failed test automatically means an athlete is cheating.

K
If an advisor says to me "My liege, he is but one man. What can one man possibly do?", I will reply "This." and kill the advisor.
http://minievil.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Terry van Ettinger 
  To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, February 22, 2002 4:01 PM
  Subject: Re: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: The Waaahhh!-nter Olympics (WAS Sarah Hughes - from my home town!)


  True, but if there were some who tested positive, they shouldn't have been
  doing anything to pull them out in the first place. 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk  Fri Feb 22 16:47:57 2002
From: kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk (Kathryn)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 16:47:57 -0000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: The Waaahhh!-nter Olympics (WAS  Sarah Hughes - from my home town!)
References: <a55ru8+olvg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <004901c1bbc0$b0371780$5c4886d9@monica>

Oh I totally don't agree with their methods, it's etty and quite frankly pathetic

K
If an advisor says to me "My liege, he is but one man. What can one man possibly do?", I will reply "This." and kill the advisor.
http://minievil.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: moongirlk 
  To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, February 22, 2002 4:34 PM
  Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: The Waaahhh!-nter Olympics (WAS Sarah Hughes - from my home town!)
  But 
  when they threaten to take their ball and stomp off home, hurting 
  their own athletes more than anyone else, I just can't be bothered 
  with them.  



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From cindysphynx at home.com  Fri Feb 22 17:02:35 2002
From: cindysphynx at home.com (cindysphynx)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 17:02:35 -0000
Subject: The Waaahhh!-nter Olympics (WAS  Sarah Hughes - from my home town!)
In-Reply-To: <003601c1bbbf$d90f70e0$5c4886d9@monica>
Message-ID: <a55tjb+5fb4@eGroups.com>

Kathyrn wrote:

> They didn't exactly "test positive" since that implies that a 
banned substance was found in their blood, they simply had higher 
than the legal limit of red blood cells in the test for which there 
may (or may not, I don't know but I'm giving them the benefit of the 
doubt here to a certain extent) be a perfectly natural explaination. 

I'm no doping expert, but I recently read a long article in the New 
Yorker about doping in cycling and other endurance sports.  The 
upshot is that many people think the doping standards give so much 
leeway and are so lax that if you are caught doping, it is definitely 
because you were doping.  In other words, when they set the doping 
standards, they already account for variation in physiology and 
cycles and all of those naturally-occurring issues.  So if it really 
is this athlete's blood and it was tested properly, then she's been 
busted.

Waaaahhhhh!

Oh, and my earlier remark about Sarah Hughes hanging up on the 
president is related to something she said in an interview.  In her 
endearing, bubbly 16-year-old way, she said something like, "They 
handed me a phone and I hung up, and I think it might have been a 
congressman."  

She probably hung up because it was Bush on the phone, but she 
couldn't hear him because he had a pretzel stuck in his throat.

NotTryingToGetPoliticalButCouldn'tResist!Cindy 





From ganvira at earthlink.net  Fri Feb 22 16:59:36 2002
From: ganvira at earthlink.net (Terry van Ettinger)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 08:59:36 -0800
Subject: Hey there, all!
Message-ID: <01a301c1bbc2$4f210c60$0797cd18@charterpipeline.com>

Hello there, all!
    I generally like to give people some kind of intro to go on in first coming on a list, and I didn't really get a chance for that before jumping into the Olympic conversation.  So should you at some point find yourself wondering who the crazy person with the Earthlink address is, here you go.
    I actually joined the main HPFGU list a few months ago, but due to some erroneous settings in my preferences and such, I was getting the messages in my ganvira at yahoo.com box, an address I really don't even use.  So I wasn't getting any messages from the list on Earthlink, and thought this was a very dead group.  Well, I went to set up a yahoo by phone account...and when I logged into that, I discovered the hidden closet where all the HPforgrownups messages were apparating, and saw some really interesting discussions.  '-)  Yesterday, I went into my groups page and fixed the settings so that the messages actually went to a mailbox I *do* use, and from there I found this off-topic section.
    Aside from being an HP addict, I'm also a musician, avid role-player, co-author and Trekker.  In my role-playing, I'm currently co-moderator of a voicemail-based free-form group (that's how I found yahoo by phone), which involves characters both devised by players and taken from books and such, and spanning a number of worlds.  As for my music, my specialty is folk and classical, although I'll do pretty much anything.  Currently I'm taking music classes at the community college here in Riverside, although I'm not sure what I'm going to do in the end; I'm sort of a misfit, what can I say?

Terry

E-mail: ganvira at earthlink.net
AOL IM: Kendra Mardek
MSN IM: ganvira at hotmail.com
Axe-Magic project e-mail: Axmagic at earthlink.net


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Fri Feb 22 17:33:36 2002
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (milztoday)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 17:33:36 -0000
Subject: Hemoglobin/Russians file figure-skating protest
Message-ID: <a55vdg+basn@eGroups.com>

First the Russians...http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/winter02/gen/news?
id=1338505. They're saying that Slutskaya should get her own medal 
like the Canadians due to biased judging (eventhough she didn't do a 
triple-triple combo and made it a triple-double and eventhough she 
didn't land one of her triples soundly.)

Now, onto hemoglobin.

It's the oxygen carrying component in red blood cells. Oxygen is 
needed by the body to function. There's a bunch of biochemical 
reactions that use oxygen to convert energy for the body. 

There are established normal ranges of hemoglobin for human, 
depending on sex and even racial make-up.  There are also set methods 
to measure hemoglobin. But with anything in science/medicine, there 
are variations of the normal ranges due to laboratory technique and 
the instruments used. To avoid these technical differences, tests 
like these only one reference laboratory is used. I suspect the IOC 
has a set range of "normal" hemoglobin for athletes, male and female.

Medically, there are a variety of reasons for increased hemoglobin, 
ranging from medical conditions to environmental stressors such as 
vigorous exercise and high altitude or blood doping.

Hemoglobin is increased in high altitudes because the concentration 
of oxygen in high altitudes is lower than the concentration of oxygen 
in lower altitudes. Because the oxygen concentration is lower, the 
body needs to produce more hemoglobin in order to trap that oxygen. 
Vigorous exercise basically does the same thing. In order for the 
body to meet the oxygen demands of vigorous exercise, it needs to 
increase it's amount of hemoglobin. 

So what is blood doping? In it's most basic, primative form, blood 
doping can be done by transfusing red blood cells into an athlete 
before an event. The more high tech way to blood dope is to give an 
injection of erythropoetin, which is a chemical that stimulates the 
body to produce red blood cells. This chemical is found naturally in 
the body and is also manufactured for use by people with anemia. The 
theory behing blood doping is that by increasing the amount of oxygen-
carrying cells, you can deliver more oxygen to the muscles, so you 
can increase performance.

So, could a person living in a high altitude normally develop an 
increase in hemoglobin? Yes. However, it would take a while to build 
up that amount of hemoglobin. After a transfusion or after a dose of 
erythropoetin, there is an almost immediate increase in red blood 
cells. It's quite remarkable.

The other thing too and I don't know if the IOC does this is to take 
several samples of blood at different days before an event, like 120 
days, 10 days and 1 day. If there's a difference in the numbers then 
something probably happened.

Milz 
















From catalyna_99 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 22 17:47:24 2002
From: catalyna_99 at yahoo.com (catalyna_99)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 17:47:24 -0000
Subject: Dumb Americans?
Message-ID: <a5607c+r6u3@eGroups.com>

We have moved the "dumbing for Americans" from the main list.

> > Judy said:
> > >Maybe the reason for this asymmetry is that here
> in the US, we have
> > >little exposure to British popular culture. 
> Perhaps in England,
> > >people have some amount of exposure to American
> TV shows, songs, etc.,
> > >and pick up some US slang.

But what irks me, this is a recent phenomena. In
the 19th century and early to mid 1900s this was not
considered necessary.  I read some children's
magazines my aunt had that were written about 1918,
the terms were definitely British and no one thought
about changing them.  The stories usually took place
in boarding schools (ala Tom Brown) and at first I was
a little confused by words such as bags for trousers,
biscuits for cookies, plus the term fag and fagging
meaning a younger student having to serve an older
form student by fetching, cleaning out the fireplaces,
etc.  The confusion was brief however, because I could
get the meaning from the context.  Why do we think
that children now can't do what we did before?  

Cat

Life's like a movie. Write your own ending. Keep believing, keep 
pretending.--Kermit the Frog





From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Fri Feb 22 18:22:28 2002
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 18:22:28 -0000
Subject: UK - US editions
Message-ID: <a56294+j3ds@eGroups.com>

I'm about three weeks behind on the main list - the epistolatory 
style there has recently become *very* discursive - but I have 
skimmed the above thread and think I get the gist.

I have not got the US editions, but I think it adds to the fun that 
the books were altered for a US audience.  Pippin or somebody pointed 
out a few weeks ago the marketing (as opposed to ease-of-reading) 
reasons for it.

Having a variant text gives us a richer structure, IMO.  We wouldn't 
know Dean Thomas is black without the US version.  We wouldn't have 
had the discussion about the meaning of the 'one more death' comment 
at the beginning of GOF.

Because, as I understand it, JKR was privy to the changes and in some 
sense agreed them, they are canon.  Some of them may be flints, but 
that's what having different versions is all about.

Anyone who has read, say, JRR Tolkien's Unfinished Tales will know 
what I am talking about:  Christopher Tolkien had to struggle with 
alternative incompatible versions of the same stories to synthesise 
something that was more or less coherent.

In theory, all the Americanisations give us potential new insights 
into the 'original' text - that 'jumper' is changed to 'sweater' 
rather than some other word may tell us something.

I also like the fact that the majority of list members have 
the 'derivative' text - it gives a suitable mystique to us Brits (and 
Ozzies and Canadians) who are the anointed interpreters of the 
original.

David, hoping that the Greek translation was *properly* done: ie by 
locking 70 scholars in 70 separate rooms so that they all 
miraculously come up with idendical translations, which can then be 
used to shed light on the original Aramaic, I mean, er...




From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Fri Feb 22 18:34:59 2002
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 18:34:59 -0000
Subject: Doping
In-Reply-To: <a55tjb+5fb4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a5630j+f4vu@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "cindysphynx" <cindysphynx at h...> wrote:

> I'm no doping expert, but I recently read a long article in the New 
> Yorker about doping in cycling and other endurance sports.  The 
> upshot is that many people think the doping standards give so much 
> leeway and are so lax that if you are caught doping, it is 
definitely 
> because you were doping.  

Nor am I a doping expert (or skating: who is Michelle Kwan? Who is 
Sarah Hughes?  is there a reason I should care?), so I have a 
question that the media in their frenzy to be whiter-than-white anti-
doping never seem to answer:

Is there any hard evidence that taking drugs actually improves 
performance?  Or is it all just a myth, fostered by the legendary 
superstition of athletes?

Oh, and BTW, congratulations to Tabouli on whoeveritwas winning Gold 
in whateveritwas for Australia.  Apparently Britain has its first 
Gold for umpteen years now - something to do with putting tongs in 
your hair, or leaving lettuce in the sun too long, I think.

David




From andrew_macian at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 22 19:02:39 2002
From: andrew_macian at yahoo.com (Andrew MacIan)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 11:02:39 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] work, perform, win/quit, sue, kill.... welcome to the olympics
In-Reply-To: <003801c1bbb1$b6b36460$0797cd18@charterpipeline.com>
Message-ID: <20020222190239.22378.qmail@web9507.mail.yahoo.com>

Greetings from Andrew!

Could I request, for the second time in two days, that
you {snip} the .sig portion (the one with the
URL for the ADMIN file, amongst other things) before
you reply to a post?  Reposting it every time is a
waste of bandwdith; some of our subscribers have to
pay for each email by length, and they, too, would
appreciate this courtesy.  I've indicated below the
section to which I refer.

Thanks in advance,

Drieux/Manxy elf

--- Terry van Ettinger <ganvira at earthlink.net> wrote:
{SNIP} OF POST.  Everything below should not be
included in a reply, please.

> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________
> >
> > Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read
> the group's Admin Files!
> >
>
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/
> >
> > Remember to use accurate subject headings and to
> snip unnecessary material
> from posts to which you're replying!
> >
> > Is your message...
> > An announcement of merchandise, news etc.? Send it
> to HPFGU-Announcements.
> > Movie-related? Send it to HPFGU-Movie.
> > Referencing *only* the books? Send it to
> HPforGrownups.
> > None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter.
> > Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List
> Elf or the Mods --
> MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com
> >
> > Unsubscribing? Email
> HPFGU-OTChatter-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
> >
>
____________________________________________________________
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> 
> 



=====
ICQ # 76184391

'Each game of chess means there's one less
      Variation left to be played;
 Each day got through means one or two less
      Mistakes remain to be made.'
      --'Chess' by Sir Tim Rice

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games
http://sports.yahoo.com



From andrew_macian at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 22 19:09:05 2002
From: andrew_macian at yahoo.com (Andrew MacIan)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 11:09:05 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] work, perform, win/quit, sue, kill.... welcome to the olympics
In-Reply-To: <20020222190239.22378.qmail@web9507.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020222190905.2228.qmail@web9504.mail.yahoo.com>

Greetings from Andrew!

Lessons du jour:

Never trust Yahoo! when it tells that an email was not
sent;

Never do anything before that second half-liter of
coffee.

Apologies to all; this was meant as private email.

Cheers,

Drieux


=====
ICQ # 76184391

'Each game of chess means there's one less
      Variation left to be played;
 Each day got through means one or two less
      Mistakes remain to be made.'
      --'Chess' by Sir Tim Rice

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games
http://sports.yahoo.com



From andrew_macian at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 22 19:23:24 2002
From: andrew_macian at yahoo.com (Andrew MacIan)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 11:23:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Doping
In-Reply-To: <a5630j+f4vu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20020222192324.53574.qmail@web9502.mail.yahoo.com>

Greetings from Andrew!

Tangled webs, indeed....
--- davewitley <dfrankiswork at netscape.net> wrote:
{snip}
> 
> Is there any hard evidence that taking drugs
> actually improves 
> performance?  Or is it all just a myth, fostered by
> the legendary 
> superstition of athletes?
{snip}

Yes, there are instances.  Use of human growth factor
hormone (anabolic steroids) is rampant in
weight-lifting, and the use of EPO (erythropoietin) to
stimulate red blood cell growth is getting to a
similar level of abuse in the endurance sports.  In a
lot of of the latter, use of whole blood that is
hyper- oxygenated (and collected from the athlete it
is destined to be given back to) and/or packed red
cells has been observed as well.

In the case of the Russians who were DQ from the 4 x
5km race, the one story that I read had an interesting
twist.  It seems one woman was on her menses, and the
Russian team MD reported that her RBC count was low;
that's one very well-known effect, after all. 
However, when she was tested within the two-hour
pre-race period, her RBC turned out to be too
high...usually an indication of 'doping' by EPO or
transfusion.  In her case, given her reported
condition, I cannot understand how it would be high
absent intervention, let us say.

Cheers,

Drieux

=====
ICQ # 76184391

'Each game of chess means there's one less
      Variation left to be played;
 Each day got through means one or two less
      Mistakes remain to be made.'
      --'Chess' by Sir Tim Rice

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games
http://sports.yahoo.com



From pennylin at swbell.net  Fri Feb 22 21:11:29 2002
From: pennylin at swbell.net (plinsenmayer)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 21:11:29 -0000
Subject: Sarah Hughes - from my home town!
In-Reply-To: <a55jmm+aqit@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a56c61+il24@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "jenny_ravenclaw" <meboriqua at a...> wrote:
> Did anyone else watch the figure skating last night?

Ooh, yes.  It's really the only event I pay much attention to in the
Winter Olympics, being much more of a Summer games kind of person.  I
thought her performance was nothing short of phenomenal!!!  Sarah
Hughes that is.  I do feel bad for Michelle Kwan, and like Jenny, I
like Sasha alot too.  But, Sarah was so fantastic & after she was done
skating, I thought "there is just no way that anyone can beat *that*
performance" (although what the hell do I know really, never having
been on ice skates in my life).

Cool that she's from your hometown, Jenny.

Penny
(here on OT-Chatter for some reason)  




From mjollner at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 22 21:15:38 2002
From: mjollner at yahoo.com (mjollner)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 21:15:38 -0000
Subject: Dumb Americans and US/UK Editions
Message-ID: <a56cdq+2inu@eGroups.com>

Hello, there.  I started the trouble on the main list...so of course 
I'll follow it over to OT!

Shaw's quote springs to mind, about the US and Britain being two 
nations divided by a common language...

With regard to the asymmetry of expectations of US/UK cultural 
knowledge, catalyna_99 wrote:

<But what irks me, this is a recent phenomena. (snip snip) Why do we 
<think that children now can't do what we did before? 

The reason for the current situation is the power shift that's 
occurred since then. In the last century, and for the beginning of 
this one, Britain exercised cultural dominance over the US (and much 
of the rest of the world).  The US wasn't much of a country vis-a-vis 
the rest of the world in wealth or power or in any other way until the 
two World Wars devastated much of Europe and Asia physically, morally 
and financially. US postwar largesse toward rebuilding many of the 
damaged countries (not to mention the increased number of US soldiers 
stationed abroad) made the US *the* big kid on the block - the 
wealthiest and the one with the most influence - as far as much of the 
world was concerned.  So the US has been the nation exercising 
cultural dominance since then...

...which of course includes the ubiquity of US films, fashions, slang, 
etc. abroad.  From the point of view of certain Americans, including 
obviously those editors who feel it necessary to change British books 
to make them palatable for stereotypically American tastes, *of 
course* others will be familiar with US popular culture, whereas 
Americans *of course* will not be expected to be familiar with 
cultures elsewhere, not even that of our Mother Country.  

And before I'm flamed for what I just typed, let me emphasize that 
this is NOT a moral judgment in favor of the situation!   

Though I do have to agree with the poster referenced below that the US 
editions *have* had the advantage of bringing some canon facts to 
light...

As well as contributing the above thought in response to the US/UK 
edition brouhaha on the main list, davewitley chimed in:

>I also like the fact that the majority of list members have 
>the 'derivative' text - it gives a suitable mystique to us Brits (and 
>Ozzies and Canadians) who are the anointed interpreters of the 
>original.

I dunno about Aussies, since I've never known any, but I do know 
several Canadians, and they sound more like us Americans than Brits  
in colloquial speech as well as accent!  Though they are *thoroughly* 
ashamed of that fact. :-)

Mjollner, 
a secret Anglophile whose favorite historical fiction writer is 
Rosemary Sutcliffe, who thinks Sherlock Holmes is the coolest fiction 
character *ever*, who willingly bought and read a book about medieval 
and Tudor sites in London, and who drools every time British Airways 
announces another fare sale to Heathrow...




From mjollner at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 22 21:21:16 2002
From: mjollner at yahoo.com (mjollner)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 21:21:16 -0000
Subject: The Waaahhh!-nter Olympics (WAS  Sarah Hughes - from my home town!)
In-Reply-To: <a55tjb+5fb4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a56coc+omfd@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "cindysphynx" <cindysphynx at h...> wrote:

> Oh, and my earlier remark about Sarah Hughes hanging up on the 
> president is related to something she said in an interview.  In her 
> endearing, bubbly 16-year-old way, she said something like, "They 
> handed me a phone and I hung up, and I think it might have been a 
> congressman."  
> 
> She probably hung up because it was Bush on the phone, but she 
> couldn't hear him because he had a pretzel stuck in his throat.
> 
> NotTryingToGetPoliticalButCouldn'tResist!Cindy

Oh, you're AWFUL!  Dissing our ever-dignified Commander-in-Chief like 
that...bless your heart! ;-) (I was about to bless pretzel 
manufacturers, too, but methinks I better not.  Secret Service might 
come knocking.  Ahem.)

And I know there are folks out there thinking this already: Sarah 
Hughes' comment is *undoubtedly* proof of the ignorance of American 
youth about their government compared to their peers in the rest of 
the world.  Just thought I'd put it out there first (she says with 
tongue firmly in cheek...)

Mjollner




From editor at texas.net  Fri Feb 22 21:43:26 2002
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 15:43:26 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: The Waaahhh!-nter Olympics (WAS  Sarah Hughes - from my home town!)
References: <a56coc+omfd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <02e801c1bbe9$f674ac20$e27763d1@texas.net>

Mjollner said

> Oh, you're AWFUL!  Dissing our ever-dignified Commander-in-Chief like 
> that...bless your heart! ;-) (I was about to bless pretzel 
> manufacturers, too, but methinks I better not.  Secret Service might 
> come knocking.

Or a Conservageist. Beware.

--Amanda
 




From mjollner at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 22 22:02:52 2002
From: mjollner at yahoo.com (mjollner)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 22:02:52 -0000
Subject: The Waaahhh!-nter Olympics (WAS  Sarah Hughes - from my home town!)
In-Reply-To: <02e801c1bbe9$f674ac20$e27763d1@texas.net>
Message-ID: <a56f6c+gvir@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "Amanda" <editor at t...> wrote:
> 
> Or a Conservageist. Beware.

"Conservageist...conservageist...what on earth can that 
mean...(swallows hard)...eep. Sorry!

I'm duly chastised and will slink home now...

Mjollner








From Zorb17 at aol.com  Fri Feb 22 22:45:29 2002
From: Zorb17 at aol.com (Zorb17 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 17:45:29 EST
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Sarah Hughes
Message-ID: <127.c77c56a.29a82409@aol.com>

Milz:
> Actually, I was rooting for Sarah Hughes last night. She's been more 
> consistent than Sasha Cohen (who reminds me of Nicole Bobek for some 
> reason...) and she's beaten Michelle and Irina this season. Her 
> fourth place scores on the short program were lower because she was 
> the first of the elite to skate...and we all know how the judges love 
> to leave room for the top! 
> 
> Out of all of them, Sarah's performance was more relaxed and 
> controlled. Even when she took the ice, she looked relaxed whereas 
> the others looked like they were about to give birth to Voldemort's 
> baby;-)

That - er - interesting mental image aside (Out of my head!  Out, I say!), I completely agree with you.  Sarah gave us an incredible skate last night, and I was thrilled to be able to watch it.  I was especially glad I recorded it, so that I could go back and watch it again.

After she blew me away, I was still rooting for Michelle to get the gold, because I do think she deserves one as a world-class skater.  And, as I said in my previous post, Sarah's just starting out in the sport's world theatre.

Still, I'm very happy that Sarah got the gold, though I feel awful for Michelle.  Sarah was without question the best skater out there last night.  I would've given the silver to Michelle, though; she and Irina were pretty much even technically, but Michelle's presentation was *significantly* better.  Ah, well.

Milz again:
Really they 
> should have the technical count for x% and the artistic count for x% 
> of the total score. Skip the ordinals completely.

Don't they do that already?  Scott & Co. mentioned that the short program counts for 1/3 of the final score (and the long program, obviously, is 2/3).

Regarding the latest skating "scandal": Bleah.  Anyone who thinks the Cold War is over has another think coming.


Zorb, feeling prophetic



From editor at texas.net  Fri Feb 22 22:52:26 2002
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 16:52:26 -0600
Subject: Hey, UK guys!
Message-ID: <033001c1bbf3$99f67f00$e27763d1@texas.net>

I saw an auction on eBay for the November 2001 edition of "Theatregoer,"
which has Alan Rickman on the cover and has an article about his current
stage production "Private Lives."

I'd kind of like to have this, but I don't want to pay $50 for it. Can
anyone on your side of the pond dig one up for me cheaper?

Thanks,
Amanda




From blpurdom at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 23 00:08:01 2002
From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 00:08:01 -0000
Subject: Dumb Americans and US/UK Editions
In-Reply-To: <a56cdq+2inu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a56mh1+mvii@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "mjollner" <mjollner at y...> wrote:
> >I also like the fact that the majority of list members have 
> >the 'derivative' text - it gives a suitable mystique to us Brits 
> >(and Ozzies and Canadians) who are the anointed interpreters of 
> >the original.
> 
> I dunno about Aussies, since I've never known any, but I do know 
> several Canadians, and they sound more like us Americans than 
> Brits in colloquial speech as well as accent!  Though they are 
> *thoroughly* ashamed of that fact. :-)
 
I believe Dave was referring to the fact that the Canadian versions 
of the HP books are the same as the Australian and UK versions.  
Yes, some Canadian accents sound very similar to some American 
accents (what we think of as the "stereotypical" accent, people 
saying "eh" a lot, etc. is very similar to what one hears in the 
Upper Peninsula of Michigan and in Wisconsin), but others bear more 
of a (fleeting) resemblance to some British and Scottish accents, 
especially in the far Northeast (Nova Scotia and Newfoundland).  And 
despite the fact that Canadians are also exposed day in and day out 
to American culture, it was assumed that they would be with-it 
enough to comprehend the British versions without the changes made 
for Americans.  So why DIDN'T they change the books for Canadians?  
That's probably an even better question than "Why DID they change 
them for Americans?"

--Barb





From lordzenya at aol.com  Sat Feb 23 00:28:06 2002
From: lordzenya at aol.com (lord_zenya)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 00:28:06 -0000
Subject: What dose this mean?
Message-ID: <a56nmm+cjc7@eGroups.com>

You are responsible for obtaining access to the Service and that 
access may involve third party fees (such as Internet service 
provider or airtime charges). You are responsible for those fees, 
including those fees associated with the display or delivery of 
advertisements. In addition, you must provide and are responsible for 
all equipment necessary to access the Service




From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Sat Feb 23 01:21:56 2002
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 01:21:56 -0000
Subject: Doping
In-Reply-To: <20020222192324.53574.qmail@web9502.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <a56qrk+a895@eGroups.com>

Drieux:

> Yes, there are instances.  Use of human growth factor
> hormone (anabolic steroids) is rampant in
> weight-lifting, and the use of EPO (erythropoietin) to
> stimulate red blood cell growth is getting to a
> similar level of abuse in the endurance sports.  In a
> lot of of the latter, use of whole blood that is
> hyper- oxygenated (and collected from the athlete it
> is destined to be given back to) and/or packed red
> cells has been observed as well.
> 
Yes, but can they lift more because of it?  Do they have more 
stamina?  Has anyone done a double blind or whatever to find out?

David




From kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk  Sat Feb 23 01:36:00 2002
From: kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk (Kathryn)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 01:36:00 -0000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: The Waaahhh!-nter Olympics (WAS  Sarah Hughes - from my home town!)
References: <a56coc+omfd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <001b01c1bc0a$742bb1c0$ae0286d9@monica>

Is it normal for o president to phone a gold medal winner? (I know I've heard about it before but I can't see Dubya as a figure skating fan somehow and it strikes me as odd)
Besides there was a US Helicopter crashed in the Philippines, he's still trying to hunt down Bin Laden, trying not to piss of the Chinese having upset the Koreans and scared the Japanese Stock Exchange, the embassy in India had just got film of a journalist being killed, and it's possible someone tried to attack the US embassy in Rome (I think) with cyanide,  ...... and the President's talking to a figure skater?!? Either he multitasks really well or your government has a problem with its priorities!
Seriously, there was an actual question in there somewhere on something. Not particularly (despite the sarcasm) trying to get at Bush, until you guys elect Josiah Bartlett as President I'm going to keep up my general dislike of all politicians.

K
If an advisor says to me "My liege, he is but one man. What can one man possibly do?", I will reply "This." and kill the advisor.
http://minievil.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: mjollner 
  To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, February 22, 2002 9:21 PM
  Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: The Waaahhh!-nter Olympics (WAS Sarah Hughes - from my home town!)


  --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "cindysphynx" <cindysphynx at h...> wrote:

  > Oh, and my earlier remark about Sarah Hughes hanging up on the 
  > president is related to something she said in an interview.  In her 
  > endearing, bubbly 16-year-old way, she said something like, "They 
  > handed me a phone and I hung up, and I think it might have been a 
  > congressman."  
  > 
  > She probably hung up because it was Bush on the phone, but she 
  > couldn't hear him because he had a pretzel stuck in his throat.
  > 
  > NotTryingToGetPoliticalButCouldn'tResist!Cindy

  Oh, you're AWFUL!  Dissing our ever-dignified Commander-in-Chief like 
  that...bless your heart! ;-) (I was about to bless pretzel 
  manufacturers, too, but methinks I better not.  Secret Service might 
  come knocking.  Ahem.)

  And I know there are folks out there thinking this already: Sarah 
  Hughes' comment is *undoubtedly* proof of the ignorance of American 
  youth about their government compared to their peers in the rest of 
  the world.  Just thought I'd put it out there first (she says with 
  tongue firmly in cheek...)

  Mjollner


        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
              ADVERTISEMENT
             
       
       

  ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________

  Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the group's Admin Files!
  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/

  Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying!

  Is your message...
  An announcement of merchandise, news etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements.
  Movie-related? Send it to HPFGU-Movie.
  Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups.
  None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter.
  Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com

  Unsubscribing? Email HPFGU-OTChatter-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
  ____________________________________________________________


  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From roleplayer_m_uk at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 23 02:18:10 2002
From: roleplayer_m_uk at yahoo.com (roleplayer_m_uk)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 02:18:10 -0000
Subject: Dumb Americans and US/UK Editions
In-Reply-To: <a56mh1+mvii@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a56u52+tllu@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "blpurdom" <blpurdom at y...> wrote:
> So why DIDN'T they change the books for Canadians?  
> That's probably an even better question than "Why DID they change 
> them for Americans?"

I'm sure the answer is the same for both. The changes were made to 
the American editions because of the power of the US as the dominant 
global culture. Canada, not having the same kind of dominance, 
doesn't get the luxury of its own edition.

Although I take the point that the revisions have shed new light on 
some aspects of the books, it does seem to be patronising the 
American audience to make the changes. After all, reading the books 
in their original form would give American kids a little taste of a 
new culture without the effort of learning a new language. Sometimes 
it doesn't pay to pander to people too much - it makes them lazy.

I'm British and living in London with my American girlfriend, so I 
have a pretty good understanding of the cultural divide. She rarely 
needs to explain American lingo to me, since I'm familiar with it 
from books, movies and TV but I often (especially in the early days) 
had to act as thesaurus for her. She's learning fast though - she 
found Don Cheadle's "London" accent in Ocean's Eleven as hilarious as 
I did! And don't even get her started on Daphne's "Manchester" accent 
in Frasier! :)






From saintbacchus at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 23 02:30:32 2002
From: saintbacchus at yahoo.com (saintbacchus)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 02:30:32 -0000
Subject: UK vs. US editions
Message-ID: <a56us8+q6ff@eGroups.com>

GulPlum wrote on the main list:

<<
It's also dangerous: is it any wonder that much of
the rest of the world considers Americans to be
closed-minded and imperialistic, when they can't
accept a culture as close to their own as the British
one on its own terms without having to
"domesticate" it?
>>

Can't accept? How about never had a chance to? It's
easy for someone who doesn't live in the US to say that,
but as Catalyna pointed out, this kind of tinkering
never used to be the case. There was never a problem
before, and who knows why things have changed. Can you
really see people clamoring for a translation from
English? I myself am extremely offended that the
ineptly-named Scholastic feels the need to change
English words to other English words.

My apologies if you were just writing in character, so
to speak, but this issue really frosts my shorts. I'd
rather not be judged by the arbitrary decision of a
publishing company, thank you very much.




From saintbacchus at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 23 02:30:33 2002
From: saintbacchus at yahoo.com (saintbacchus)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 02:30:33 -0000
Subject: UK vs. US editions
Message-ID: <a56us9+r905@eGroups.com>

GulPlum wrote on the main list:

<<
It's also dangerous: is it any wonder that much of
the rest of the world considers Americans to be
closed-minded and imperialistic, when they can't
accept a culture as close to their own as the British
one on its own terms without having to
"domesticate" it?
>>

Can't accept? How about never had a chance to? It's
easy for someone who doesn't live in the US to say that,
but as Catalyna pointed out, this kind of tinkering
never used to be the case. There was never a problem
before, and who knows why things have changed. Can you
really see people clamoring for a translation from
English? I myself am extremely offended that the
ineptly-named Scholastic feels the need to change
English words to other English words.

My apologies if you were just writing in character, so
to speak, but this issue really frosts my shorts. I'd
rather not be judged by the arbitrary decision of a
publishing company, thank you very much.




From andrew_macian at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 23 03:04:53 2002
From: andrew_macian at yahoo.com (Andrew MacIan)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 19:04:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Doping
In-Reply-To: <a56qrk+a895@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20020223030453.94337.qmail@web9502.mail.yahoo.com>

Greetings from Andrew!

"No pain...."
--- davewitley <dfrankiswork at netscape.net> wrote:
{Snip} of my capsule description of HGF/EPO (ab)use in
athletics.

> > 
> Yes, but can they lift more because of it?

Oh, yes.  HGF increases both the mass and reaction
time in the slow twitch muscles.  Think about how you
lock out a snatch:  You have to swing the bar over
your head and lock your arms whilst simultaneously
performing a squat, almost to the point that you're
sitting on the mat.  Then, without moving your arms,
you have to stand up and lock out your knees. 
Obviously, the more muscle mass you have, the more
mass can be loaded on the bar.  Less obviously, the
more your total mass, the more counter-balance you
have  when you're moving the bar. This is why the best
ultra-class lifters look like Alexyev or Bonk.

>  Do they
> have more 
> stamina?  

Definitely, since RBCs are the carriers of O_2 and
waste; the more you have, the more efficiently your
metabolism functions.  EPO 'forces' (influences,
really) the formation of RBCs from stem cells.  Thus,
if you 'dope' with EPO for the last three or so weeks
before you compete, you have a tangible edge.

> Has anyone done a double blind or whatever
> to find out?

Yes, both in terms of doping and in treatment
regimens.  HGF has been known in Olympic/NCAA lifting
for the last 20+ years.  EPO, being a recent product
from Amgen (and its licensees), has only been tested
for in the last five years or so.

Citations to the trials should be on MEDLINE, if
you're interested. 

Oh, by the way....ever wonder why a *lot* of athletes
dye their hair?  It's another effort to hide doping
and illicit drug use.  Patently, the hair and scalp
are compromised for tests, but it also seems that
there is a systemic effect as well, so that
blood/urine specimens are also compromised.  Or so the
'theory' says.

Science marches on!

Cheers,

Drieux

=====
ICQ # 76184391

'Each game of chess means there's one less
      Variation left to be played;
 Each day got through means one or two less
      Mistakes remain to be made.'
      --'Chess' by Sir Tim Rice

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games
http://sports.yahoo.com



From Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com  Sat Feb 23 14:27:11 2002
From: Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com (Aberforth's Goat)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 15:27:11 +0100
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Doping
References: <a56qrk+a895@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <033d01c1bc76$2fcde4f0$0200a8c0@shasta>

David wondered,

> Yes, but can they lift more because of it?  Do they have more
> stamina?  Has anyone done a double blind or whatever to find
out?

Some drugs certainly produce results - and have been clinically
tested. Conversely, there are often natural ways of getting
similar results - and in many cases it's hard to tell how much
the drug in question in contributing.

I know something about two kinds of performance enhancing drugs:
EPO and Ritalin.

EPO: I'm a mountain biker - or at least I enthusiastically claim
to be one on email lists - and have some knowledge of EPO use.
(Not direct. My fitness level is low enough that I would get way
more out of sticking to my training program than sticking needles
in myself.) By all accounts, it *does* help, but it's not
everything - and its effects can be mimicked by high altitude
training.

Of course, it is also true that most world champions *aren't*
using drugs.

Or are they? Sometimes the lines get blurry. When Lance Armstrong
trains at high-altitude facilities, using enormously complex
oxygen regulating systems - when he spends his down time during
the Tour lying in an oxygen tent hooked up to an IV unit, it's
plain ol' sport. When some guy who couldn't even afford a bus
ticket to high-tech facility X gets *his* high altitude training
in a syringe, he's a nefarious doper. That doesn't making doping
right (let alone healthy), but it makes it a bit more
understandable.


Ritalin: I *am* an off-and-on Ritalin user, which could be called
an intellectual doping substance. About five years ago, after
reading an interesting book about ADD, I paid a few visits to a
psychologist and had myself diagnosed. I thought Ritalin would
help me concentrate better and be less scatter-brained.

About two years ago I talked things through with my doctor in
Switzerland and convinced him to let me give Ritalin a try. Two
years later, I still can't honestly say whether it really helps.
Sometimes I think it has, sometimes I think it hasn't - and often
I get a headache. (My wife agrees, btw.) Because of the headaches
(not to mention losing prescriptions on account of still being
scatterbrained ... ) I don't take it very regularly. Pperhaps I
could say something more conclusive if I did.

However, kids and adults who rate higher on the ADD scale than I
do most certainly *do* benefit from the drug.

So ... doping does work sometimes, for some people; by no means
always, for everyone.

Baaaaaa!

Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray, who realized about 3/4 of the
way through this post that he was writing in circles, but figured
he'd be darned if he stopped now and is hence going to hit the
send button NOW.)
_______________________

"Of course, I'm not entirely sure he can read, so that
may not have been bravery...."



_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From tabouli at unite.com.au  Sat Feb 23 14:45:59 2002
From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 01:45:59 +1100
Subject: English around the world/around Australia
Message-ID: <03fe01c1bc78$f43b29e0$d61dddcb@price>

Despite recent bite-marks lingering from the last time she discussed inter-Anglophone country differences on the main list, Tabouli continues valiantly in her efforts at reviving Australian patriotism and asserting her country's rightful place at the forefront of the English-speaking world...

David:
> I also like the fact that the majority of list members have 
the 'derivative' text - it gives a suitable mystique to us Brits (and 
Ozzies and Canadians) who are the anointed interpreters of the 
original.


Tabouli nods, mystically, but her brows contract a little to see the common UK mis-spelling "Ozzies" flow from David's fingers.  It is not, of course, impossible that he is winding her up, but just in case she decides to set the record straight... Australia=Oz, Australians=*AUSSIES*.  Pronounced (if not spelt), "Ozzies", *not* "Awe-seize" (=common US mispronunciation).  Sigh.  The tragic fate of a small Anglophone nation, struggling for recognition between two superpowers...

Mjollner:
> I dunno about Aussies, since I've never known any, but I do know 
several Canadians, and they sound more like us Americans than Brits  
in colloquial speech as well as accent!  Though they are *thoroughly* 
ashamed of that fact. :-)

Ahh.  David is, I believe, referring to *written* English, where Aussies (!), Canadians, British South Africans and New Zealanders all fall in, more or less, with UK standard spelling.  In terms of colloquial speech and accent, there's a much wider range, as you know, which I'm all for.  Diversity of accents, a wonderful thing!  Though I confess that I have on occasion committed the nefarious crime of mistaking a Canadian accent for a US accent.  Canadian mouths have thinned.  New Zealander mouths similarly thin when accused of producing Australian accents.  And let's stay well away from the view that Cockney and Australian accents are identical, or *my* mouth will thin (there was some Simpsons episode set in Australia with pseudo-Cockney accents, once.  Respect for Matt Groening across Australia plummetted overnight).  Sure, there's still *some* vocab and pronunciation influence there, but the "music" of Cockney is very, very different from Australian English (nae wo' I mean?).

South African English is something again.  If my vague grasp of history serves me correctly, South Africa, unlike Australia, imported most of its English population from the Top Drawer, and as a result the accent of the British South African owes much to the drawing room and the cucumber sandwich, with influences from Afrikaans.  When I was there, my South African friends used all sorts of Germanic constructions which I'd never heard in English before, like "I'm going to the library.  Are you coming with?" (="kommst du mit" structure, presumably... ending with a preposition, no object required).  Then there was this weird use of "so long", which I've only ever known to mean "good-bye".  They'd say things like "While I'm at the library, will you go to the cafe so long?" Caused me a lot of confusion until I figured out that in South African English it means "in the meantime"...

The Australian accent has some regional variation, as well, though nothing like the regional variation in the UK or US.  When I moved from Melbourne to Adelaide for a few years, I never heard the end of my deplorable Eastern states pronunciations.  Adelaideans pride themselves on being the only state capital in Australia which was never a convict colony, and therefore fancy their English as owing more to the cucumber sandwich than the Ploughman's Lunch plebs in the rest of the country.  Hence they say "plahnt, dahnce and grahph", rather than "plant, dance and graph".  When I used the latter pronunciations, I was loudly derided for sounding "American", and, when I said, no, I'm sounding like an Eastern stater, they sniffed and implied that while the Eastern seaboard had caved in to pernicious American influences, *they* were adhering to correct pronunciation.  Melburnians have been known to sniff that Sydney accents are nasal and unmelodious compared with their own, but I suspect that sniff owes more than a little to intercity rivalry... (storm?  you there, holding up the Sydney side and fighting the good fight against Melbourne of the miserable climate?)

Tabouli.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From plum at cream.org  Sat Feb 23 14:55:32 2002
From: plum at cream.org (GulPlum)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 14:55:32 -0000
Subject: UK vs. US editions
In-Reply-To: <a56us8+q6ff@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a58ah4+kvgi@eGroups.com>

"saintbacchus" <saintbacchus at y...> wrote:
> GulPlum wrote on the main list:
> 
> It's also dangerous: is it any wonder that much of
> the rest of the world considers Americans to be
> closed-minded and imperialistic, when they can't
> accept a culture as close to their own as the British
> one on its own terms without having to
> "domesticate" it?
> 
> Can't accept? How about never had a chance to? It's
> easy for someone who doesn't live in the US to say that,
> but as Catalyna pointed out, this kind of tinkering
> never used to be the case. There was never a problem
> before, and who knows why things have changed. Can you
> really see people clamoring for a translation from
> English? I myself am extremely offended that the
> ineptly-named Scholastic feels the need to change
> English words to other English words.

Sorry, you misunderstand what I meant (or rather, I didn't express 
myself as well as I may have done).

I didn't mean to imply that the American people wilfully refuse to 
accept foreign cultures, which quite patently is not the case (it is 
also absurd to suggest it, considering the importance people give to 
their "mother" countries). What worries me is that (to an extent) the 
entire power structure in the US abhors anything that isn't 
culturally "pure", ie *American* culture. Book publishers, film 
studios, TV stations, politicians et al cannot see the benefit of 
opening people's eyes to an "entertainment" which appeals to more 
than the lowest common denominator.

TV, the mass medium of our age, is very telling: from my limited 
experience of how TV stations operate in the US, everything appears 
to be divided into tidy niches. How many foreign-produced (let's just 
limit that to English-language) TV shows are shown on the major US 
networks? Would any of the networks consider showing *any* non-
English language show? I suspect not. It's relegated to the Spanish, 
French, Italian or whatever channel. Does an American WASP ever get 
*any* exposure to non-American culture without having to go to a 
great deal of effort to seek it out? It's generally accepted that 
British TV is among the best in the world. How much of it finds its 
way onto network TV?

For a nation of immigrants which used to use the term "melting pot" 
to describe itself, the US is doing very badly at opening its 
constituent ethnic groups to each other. Is it therefore any wonder 
that the powers-that-be consider anything that isn't bland and 
conforms to the lowest common denominator too difficult for the 
people to handle?

I really have no answer about how to get out of this impasse. All I'm 
trying to do is to identify a problem. The question, though, is: what 
are the more open-minded American population doing about reversing 
this trend? It appears to me that the answer is "very little". 
Getting rid of that buffoon you call a President would be a good 
start...






From Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com  Sat Feb 23 15:11:37 2002
From: Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com (Aberforth's Goat)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 16:11:37 +0100
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] English around the world/around Australia
References: <03fe01c1bc78$f43b29e0$d61dddcb@price>
Message-ID: <035001c1bc7c$646e4780$0200a8c0@shasta>

Tabouli

> Sigh[ed].  The tragic fate of a small Anglophone nation,
> struggling for recognition between two superpowers...

Between two how manys? Superwhichs? Where's the other one?

But your post impressed me nonetheless: I had never realized that
Aussies don't even know how to say their own name right, and will
humor them assiduously from this day forth. (Reminds me of my
grandfather's frustrating trip to France, and of his shock at
their "God awful pronunciation.") (Grampa grew up in South
Carolina.)

BTW, I once had a Canadian friend who would always "come with."
Whether this was normal, I don't know; in many other respects, he
wasn't, so there's no telling.

Baaaaaa!

Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray, places his hand over his
heart as he stands to sing the Star Spangled Banner before
hitting the send button - as usual, when in doubt - NOW.)
_______________________

"Of course, I'm not entirely sure he can read, so that
may not have been bravery...."



_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no  Sat Feb 23 15:19:05 2002
From: pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no (pengolodh_sc)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 15:19:05 -0000
Subject: English around the world/around Australia
In-Reply-To: <03fe01c1bc78$f43b29e0$d61dddcb@price>
Message-ID: <a58bt9+jui4@eGroups.com>

"Tabouli" wrote, on the subject of English:

[snip]

> South African English is something again.  [...] When I was
> there, my South African friends used all sorts of Germanic
> constructions which I'd never heard in English before, like
> "I'm going to the library.  Are you coming with?" (="kommst
> du mit" structure, presumably... ending with a preposition,
> no object required).  Then there was this weird use of "so
> long", which I've only ever known to mean "good-bye".  They'd
> say things like "While I'm at the library, will you go to the
> cafe so long?" Caused me a lot of confusion until I figured
> out that in South African English it means "in the meantime"...

[snip]

You just increased my interest in South African English greatly.  
Indeed, from what you're saying here, it sounds not dissimilar to 
what is sometimes termed "Norwenglish", a phenomenon where Norwegian 
English-speakers and -writers will make mistakes influenced by their 
native tongue.  Some experts on developments of cultures and 
languages maintain that Norwegian as a language is doomed.  If that 
be so, I wonder if South African English might be showing just where 
Norwegian language is headed.

"roleplayer_m_uk" wrote, on the subject of English, also in Frasier:

[snip]

> I'm British and living in London with my American girlfriend,
> so I have a pretty good understanding of the cultural divide.
> [...] And don't even get her started on Daphne's "Manchester"
> accent in Frasier! :)

Is THAT what it is supposed to be?  I always presumed it was a little 
known accent from some obscure place in the North-West US (Washington 
State or Oregon), or perhaps Canada.  It certainly didn't sound to me 
like it had anything to do with England.

Best regards
Christian Stub?
Listening to Tico-Tico and music from Titanic being performed by an 
orchestra of 21 French Horns.




From mongobongo38 at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 23 17:01:02 2002
From: mongobongo38 at yahoo.com (mongobongo38)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 17:01:02 -0000
Subject: Query: J.K. Rowling's siblings
Message-ID: <a58hse+s2rh@eGroups.com>

Here's a real burning newbie question that is definitely not a FAQ.  
Can someone please tell me how many brothers and sisters J. K. 
Rowling has, and most importantly, how much younger or older than her 
they are?  Also, do I recall reading that one died?  If so, when? With 
this many Potter fans in one place, someone ought to know. Please, 
Please?
 
Mongo




From triner918 at aol.com  Sat Feb 23 17:11:27 2002
From: triner918 at aol.com (triner2001)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 17:11:27 -0000
Subject: English around the world/around Australia
In-Reply-To: <03fe01c1bc78$f43b29e0$d61dddcb@price>
Message-ID: <a58ifv+7p2d@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "Tabouli" <tabouli at u...> wrote:

>>When I was there, my South African friends used all sorts of 
Germanic constructions which I'd never heard in English before, 
like "I'm going to the library.  Are you coming with?" (="kommst du 
mit" structure, presumably... ending with a preposition, no object 
required).<<  

They do this in Chicago, too, presumably for the same reasons.  Being 
a down-stater from Central Illinois, this *really* bugged me when I 
first heard it from Chicago-raised friends in college. Soon, however, 
I picked it up myself, much to the dismay of my mom.  I've now 
dropped the habit since I now live in South Carolina, but every once 
in a while, I catch myself using the form.

Trina




From nethilia at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 23 18:24:24 2002
From: nethilia at yahoo.com (Tasha--Nethilia)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 10:24:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: I need hugs 
In-Reply-To: <1014473295.326.75306.m12@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20020223182424.42847.qmail@web14610.mail.yahoo.com>

i found out yesterday that my favorite uncle died.
dunno why. he was my mom's baby brother. 

i can't go to the funeral, cause i live in exas and he
lived in wisconsin, and since it's not immediate
family i can't get time off from my classes. 

;_; *sniffle* 

--neth

=====
--Nethilia de Lobo--
79% obsessed with Harry Potter
Wand: Dragon Heartstring, Ash, 7 inches
**Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus.**

http://www.geocities.com/spenecial
Spenecial.com. Two girls. One Website. Total Chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games
http://sports.yahoo.com



From Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com  Sat Feb 23 18:30:56 2002
From: Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com (Aberforth's Goat)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 19:30:56 +0100
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: English around the world/around Australia
References: <a58ifv+7p2d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <03cb01c1bc98$3c998730$0200a8c0@shasta>

Trina wrote,

> They do this in Chicago, too, presumably for the same reasons.
Being
> a down-stater from Central Illinois, this *really* bugged me
when I
> first heard it from Chicago-raised friends in college. Soon,
however,
> I picked it up myself, much to the dismay of my mom.  I've now
> dropped the habit since I now live in South Carolina, but every
once
> in a while, I catch myself using the form.

How odd!

In my last post I mentioned a Canadian who used that turn of
phrase. At the time I knew him, I was living in Chicago - but
"coming with" was *not* standard there, at least at the time. (I
was about 9, and it was about 21 years ago, so things may have
changed since then!)

I'll have to ask my dad, also a Chicagoan, if that phrase is
commonly used in his neck of the suburbs.

Baaaaaa!

Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray)
_______________________

"Of course, I'm not entirely sure he can read, so that
may not have been bravery...."



_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 23 18:32:49 2002
From: witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com (Wanda Mallett)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 10:32:49 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] I need hugs
In-Reply-To: <20020223182424.42847.qmail@web14610.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020223183249.49457.qmail@web13704.mail.yahoo.com>


 
  Tasha--Nethilia <nethilia at yahoo.com> wrote: 
i found out yesterday that my favorite uncle died.
dunno why. he was my mom's baby brother. 

i live in exas and he lived in wisconsin, and since it's not immediate
family i can't get time off from my classes. 

;_; *sniffle* 

Here are some cyber hugs from us here in Revere, Massachusetts. I know how you feel, I lost my Uncle Richard in San Diego, Ca. in November just before Thanksgiving. he was the Uncle who would wrestle with you at any age! As a kid, I would hide while he  tackled my 2 older sisters and his 2 boys! Then I would show myself when he was tired! Had to save myself from being turned into a human pretzle! Think of all your happy memories with your Uncle and hope it helps you through this sad time!

Schnoogles,

Wanda the Witch of Revere, Massachusetts and Her Sad Muggles who are with you, 100%



---------------------------------
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From jmmears at prodigy.net  Sat Feb 23 20:37:16 2002
From: jmmears at prodigy.net (serenadust)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 20:37:16 -0000
Subject: UK vs. US editions
In-Reply-To: <a58ah4+kvgi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a58uhs+na61@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "GulPlum" <plum at c...> wrote:

> 
> I didn't mean to imply that the American people wilfully refuse to 
> accept foreign cultures, which quite patently is not the case (it 
is 
> also absurd to suggest it, considering the importance people give 
to 
> their "mother" countries). What worries me is that (to an extent) 
the 
> entire power structure in the US abhors anything that isn't 
> culturally "pure", ie *American* culture. Book publishers, film 
> studios, TV stations, politicians et al cannot see the benefit of 
> opening people's eyes to an "entertainment" which appeals to more 
> than the lowest common denominator.
> 
 It's generally accepted that 
> British TV is among the best in the world. How much of it finds 
its 
> way onto network TV?
 

You make some excellent points concerning how difficult it is in the 
US to access non-American books, tv, and films.  It can be done, but 
it takes some effort, and most people simply aren't sufficiently 
motivated to make that effort.  You can't really blame the American 
people for this IMO.  We all have lives, jobs, etc., and when it 
comes to entertainment we mostly sample from what is put in front of 
us.  Let's face it, there's probably nowhere else in the world with 
as vast an amount of entertainment available with minimal effort as 
the USA.
I know that it's "generally accepted" that British TV is among the 
best in the world, but it's mainly because that only the very best 
of British TV is exported (shown mostly on PBS and A&E cable).  
OTOH, virtually *all* of US TV programs seem to be sold overseas, 
warts and all.  I lived in the UK for 2 full years in the 90's and 
was amazed and amused at the large amount of crap British television 
I saw there.  It's just that the US doesn't seem to buy that stuff 
to show over here.


Gulplum wrote:

> I really have no answer about how to get out of this impasse. All 
I'm 
> trying to do is to identify a problem. The question, though, is: 
what 
> are the more open-minded American population doing about reversing 
> this trend? It appears to me that the answer is "very little". 
> Getting rid of that buffoon you call a President would be a good 
> start...

I'm not aware that the president has much to do with which books, TV 
shows or movies are presented in the US.  I'm sorry, but I find your 
*buffoon* remark really insulting and the latest in a LONG series of 
cheap political shots on this list which seem to go unchallenged 
(how about this mods?).  I don't recall any cultural renaissance 
under the previous (8 LONG years) administration, who, I assume you 
admire (unless you count mainstream news outlets having to deal with 
describing various interesting sexual practices which never had any 
reason to appear in respectable daily papers before).
I realize that this list is OT chatter, and pretty much anything 
goes, but there are a fair number of ad hominum political insults 
appearing regularly here and they all seem to be coming from only 
one end of the political spectrum. So far, those of us who don't 
agree with them have let them go, but if this keeps up, I expect a 
flame war will eventually result.  I don't *think* anyone wants 
this, but I could be wrong.


Jo Serenadust 





From ch001d4564 at blueyonder.co.uk  Sat Feb 23 22:02:37 2002
From: ch001d4564 at blueyonder.co.uk (Martin Hooper)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 22:02:37 +0000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] I need hugs
In-Reply-To: <20020223182424.42847.qmail@web14610.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1014473295.326.75306.m12@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020223220226.00a6cec0@pop3.blueyonder.co.uk>

At 18:24 23/02/02, you wrote:
>i found out yesterday that my favorite uncle died.
>dunno why. he was my mom's baby brother.
>
>i can't go to the funeral, cause i live in exas and he
>lived in wisconsin, and since it's not immediate
>family i can't get time off from my classes.

*Hugs*


Martin Hooper
AIM:martinjh99 ICQ: 43933602


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Feb 23 22:52:41 2002
From: catlady at wicca.net (catlady_de_los_angeles)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 22:52:41 -0000
Subject: JKR Siblings, etc
Message-ID: <a596fp+7ui4@eGroups.com>

Hugs to bereaved Nethilia-Tasha. I wish I could comfort you.

Mongo Bongo wrote:

> Can someone please tell me how  many brothers and sisters J. K. 
> Rowling has, and most importantly, how much younger or older than
> her they are? Also, do I recall reading that one died? If so, when?

Joanne Rowling has one sister, named Diane. Jo and Di Rowling played 
with neighbor children named Ian and Vicki Potter. It was JKR's 
mother, not sibling, who died while she was writing Book 1 (therefore 
did not live to see her daughter a published author).

I went to http://www.geocities.com/aberforths_goat/ (a very useful 
search tool for JKR interviews) and found: "her younger sister Di," 
in http://www.readersdigest.co.uk/magazine/Rowling2.htm 







From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Feb 23 23:57:42 2002
From: catlady at wicca.net (catlady_de_los_angeles)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 23:57:42 -0000
Subject: More Quizzes (like Sorting), gradually turning to Sex
Message-ID: <a59a9m+qed5@eGroups.com>

These were posted on another list:

What kind of mythological creature are you? 
http://mysite.freeserve.com/Intereo_Liberi/test3.htm

A woman named Angie was surprised to find that she was a Dragon and 
her friend replied: 

> ah, but what *color* dragon are you, Angie? 
> another online quiz at 
> http://www.geocities.com/teo592/quiz/dragon.html

To me the Creature quiz said: "Congrats... You're A Dragon!!"
I'm not sure why a liking for water and ice, a dislike of fire, a 
preference for 2 legs, and wanting to be 'a girl, a cool one!" means
a Dragon... I took the Dragon quiz and it said I was a Golden Dragon, 
which is ridiculous. Even more ridiculous than when an on-line 
Sorting Hat says I'm a Gryffindor, because at least I can figure out 
how the Sorting Hat got that idea: when I click that I believe that 
-"it is more important to behave honorably than to survive"-, the HAT 
jumps to the (false) conclusion that I ACT on that belief. I can't 
figure out why the Dragon quiz thought that choosing Thunderstorms
and Average Size and Easygoing but Intelligent (no one knows where 
I'll pop up) and Heavily Forested Mountain Slopes and "Dragons are 
the greatest of all creatures. We are the warriors and defenders of 
this rock, and we'll be damned if we let some human screw it up" adds 
up to Golden Dragon.

A woman named Alicia reported:
> I'm a succubus.  Sounds vaguely perverted.  I like that!  :-)

A man named Noll wrote:
> I'm an Incubus.
> Me - the guy who couldn't get laid in an entire afternoon at the 
> West Side Baths. An Incubus.
> Yeah...right.

and his friend Katie replied:
> Uh... wouldn't that be your problem, Noll? I thought an Incubus
> seduced women while a Succubus seduced men. So the West Side Baths
> are not apt to be good stomping grounds. Sorry!

and her friend replied:
> As I understand it, an incubus is the one who ejaculates. A 
> succubus is the one who elicits ejaculations. Identifying them with
> gender indicates the presence of heterosexist assumptions.

and Katie answered back:
> Hmm... According to Webster's Dictionary, an Incubus is a demon (it
> doesn't say a male or female demon) who seduces sleeping women. And
> a Succubus, they say, is a demon who visits sleeping men. I don't 
> see how saying each demon has a predilection for a particular 
> gender of sleepers indicates heterosexism, Judy.
> But since the program only gives Succubus findings if you say
> you're a female, and Incubus findings if you say you're a male, 
> Geoff appears to be correct that the program is "wonky" and the 
> writer of the software is presuming heterosexuality.
> But mayhaps Geoff would prefer to be a Succubus than an Incubus. :) 
> And the definition also raises another possible reason why the
> baths might not be good stomping grounds for Incubi of any gender: 
> men at the baths are not apt to be sleeping.

and Alicia said:
>>A succubus is the one who elicits ejaculations. 
> COOL!!!!  At least my creature alter ego gets to have fun. 





From Joanne0012 at aol.com  Sun Feb 24 00:52:04 2002
From: Joanne0012 at aol.com (joanne0012)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 00:52:04 -0000
Subject: UK vs. US editions
In-Reply-To: <a58ah4+kvgi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a59dfk+rnin@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "GulPlum" <plum at c...> wrote:
> For a nation of immigrants which used to use the term "melting pot" 
> to describe itself, the US is doing very badly at opening its 
> constituent ethnic groups to each other.

I don't understand why you say this.  The immigrant experience has changed very 
little in the past 100 years; my Haitian, Greek, and Hispanic neighbors are 
undergoing a process that is startlingly similar to what my great-grandparents 
went through when they arrived from Ireland, Italy, and Eastern Europe.  Laws 
have changed to reduce overt employment prejudice, and educational 
opportunities have probably improved.  But the experiences that make up 
assimilation -- education, language skills, and employment achievements are still 
parallel.  Grandma still doesn't want to learn English no matter how long she's 
been here, Dad works at a job that's 2 steps down from what he had back home, 
and everyone wants their kids to get the best possible education so they can 
make the  most of opportunities.  It takes a couple of generations to change 
cultural habits.




From blpurdom at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 24 01:11:04 2002
From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 01:11:04 -0000
Subject: More Quizzes (like Sorting), gradually turning to Sex
In-Reply-To: <a59a9m+qed5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a59ej8+oova@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "catlady_de_los_angeles" <catlady at w...> 
wrote:
> These were posted on another list:
> 
> What kind of mythological creature are you? 
> http://mysite.freeserve.com/Intereo_Liberi/test3.htm
 
It turns out I'm a sphinx.  If that's not appropriate, I don't know 
what is...

--Barb

Chapter 17 of the Last Temptation is up!  Are you tempted...?
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Psych
http://schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb





From pennylin at swbell.net  Sun Feb 24 03:05:23 2002
From: pennylin at swbell.net (plinsenmayer)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 03:05:23 -0000
Subject: ADMIN: Reminder re: Political Discussions Ban
Message-ID: <a59l9j+1189u@eGroups.com>

Hi all --

A quick reminder that political discussions are one of the 3 banned
topics on this group (the other two being the Holocaust and Richard
Abanes and his book on HP & the Bible).  Please refrain from making
political remarks or jabs which are bound to antagonize *someone* who
disagrees into responding.

If anyone has any complaints about comments or posts being made in
contravention of the HP4GU rules, please do drop us a line to the
hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com address.  We can also be reached
at MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com.  We listen and respond to *every*
question, complaint or comment that reaches us.

Thanks,

Penny
Magical Moderator Team  




From editor at texas.net  Sun Feb 24 05:05:45 2002
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 23:05:45 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: UK vs. US editions
References: <a58ah4+kvgi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <003101c1bcf0$eb8c54e0$337c63d1@texas.net>

GulPlum shared her opinions thusly:

> The question, though, is: what
> are the more open-minded American population doing about reversing
> this trend? It appears to me that the answer is "very little".
> Getting rid of that buffoon you call a President would be a good
> start...

May I point out that this is not particularly constructive advice, to
address a not particularly burning problem, and it also violates the list's
ban on political statements? Some people, present company included, could
find that comment more than just a tad on the offensive side and be biting
their tongues, which is painful. Please don't make me do that again.

--Amandageist






From athene_51 at yahoo.ca  Sun Feb 24 05:51:39 2002
From: athene_51 at yahoo.ca (athene_51)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 05:51:39 -0000
Subject: "Coming with?", Canadian/American accents
In-Reply-To: <035001c1bc7c$646e4780$0200a8c0@shasta>
Message-ID: <a59v1b+j389@eGroups.com>

Hi all!

Not sure if I've ever posted here before, but wanted to weigh in with 
a Canadian perspective...

Aberforth's Goat wrote:
> BTW, I once had a Canadian friend who would always "come with."
> Whether this was normal, I don't know; in many other respects, he
> wasn't, so there's no telling.

Is this really seen as a Canadian phrase? I've lived in Canada all my 
life, and I have never heard a Canadian say this. The only time I ran 
across it was a British man I used to work with. He was forever 
saying "I'm going to [do whatever], want to come with?" etc.

Tabouli wrote:
> Though I confess that I have on occasion committed the
> nefarious crime of mistaking a Canadian accent for a US accent.
> Canadian mouths have thinned.

Ah, yes. I'd guess it was due to our sensitivity at occasionally 
being regarded as the 51st state, when we are in fact an independent 
country. We're usually quite determined to distinguish ourselves from 
the US.

- Athene

--------------------------------------
http://www.geocities.com/athene_51
Y!M: athene_51

I'm not obsessed, I'm just focused.




From alyeskakc at netzero.net  Sun Feb 24 06:21:17 2002
From: alyeskakc at netzero.net (alyeskakc)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 06:21:17 -0000
Subject: "Coming with?", Canadian/American accents
In-Reply-To: <a59v1b+j389@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a5a0ot+dit1@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "athene_51" <athene_51 at y...> wrote:
> 
> Ah, yes. I'd guess it was due to our sensitivity at occasionally 
> being regarded as the 51st state, when we are in fact an 
independent 
> country. We're usually quite determined to distinguish ourselves 
from the US.
> 
> - Athene


One thing I've noticed (as an American) is that most Canadians tend 
to pronounce certain words a little differently than we do. The two I 
notice the most and quickly come to mind are about and sorry. 

Here in the States we tend to say "a-bow-t"(like take a bow) and 
"saw-ry", whereas the Candians I've run across tend to say "a-boot" 
and "sow-ry". I've also noticed it during interviews with some 
Canadian actors as well. Just my observation.

Cheers,
Kristin




From saintbacchus at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 24 08:15:24 2002
From: saintbacchus at yahoo.com (saintbacchus)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 08:15:24 -0000
Subject: UK vs. US editions
In-Reply-To: <a58ah4+kvgi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a5a7es+d0bb@eGroups.com>

--- "GulPlum" <plum at c...> wrote:

<<
Sorry, you misunderstand what I meant (or rather, I
didn't express myself as well as I may have done).
>>

No, no, I'm sorry to be unnecessarily hard on you. I've
been in multinational-type groups before where America-
bashing was popular, so I'm a little touchy.


<<
What worries me is that (to an extent) the entire power
structure in the US abhors anything that isn't culturally
"pure", ie *American* culture. Book publishers, film
studios, TV stations, politicians et al cannot see the
benefit of opening people's eyes to an "entertainment"
which appeals to more than the lowest common denominator.
>>

I agree, but I think it's less a cultural problem than a
capitalist one. Every time a new medium appears, the powers
that already be have to figure out how to cope. The Big
Four networks have been squeezed by cable, and they've
responded by airing more and more stupid, sensationalistic
crap - the kind of thing that everyone watches but nobody
admits to watching. They appeal to the lowest common
denominator because that's the easiest way to compete with
the specialization that cable offers.

The same thing happens in politics because, when it comes
down to it, Democrats and Republicans are mostly
competing for the same votes (that is, the country doesn't
separate neatly down party lines). Their rhetoric becomes
more moderate so as to appeal to the most people.


<<
How many foreign-produced (let's just limit that to
English-language) TV shows are shown on the major US
networks? Would any of the networks consider showing
*any* non- English language show? I suspect not.
>>

Well, also consider that for every pilot that gets on the
air there are 20 more that didn't. Why buy the rights for
a foreign show when there are that many waiting right here,
with syndication and video rights also ready to be signed
over? That's my feeling, anyway. Traditionally, the Big
Four do not buy shows that have already aired somewhere,
they get exclusive rights and market, market, market.

As for foreign-language shows, I think that's business
again. The networks take pretty big losses unless shows
become hits. It just wouldn't be worth the money to air a
show whose viewership is inherently limited to a single
minority group.


<<
It's generally accepted that British TV is among the best
in the world. How much of it finds its way onto network TV?
>>

None, but again I think that has more to do with the way
those particular networks work than anything else. They
don't re-air their past hits, either, although that would
be a cheap and easy way to make a buck. Cable networks,
on the other hand, will take anything that's worked before
and even stuff that hasn't.

I'd be interested to hear about the history of television
in England, by the way.


<<
The question, though, is: what are the more open-minded
American population doing about reversing this trend? It
appears to me that the answer is "very little". Getting
rid of that buffoon you call a President would be a good
start...
>>

How? Republicans don't have sex scandals. =P It was wildly
bad timing for the Enron thing to hit right now. A year
ago would have been much, much better.

Not to be all political and stuff, but c'mon guys. Having
our president going around giving swirlies to foreign
governments during a time of serious international tension
isn't helping me sleep better at night.




From saintbacchus at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 24 08:25:24 2002
From: saintbacchus at yahoo.com (saintbacchus)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 08:25:24 -0000
Subject: I need hugs
In-Reply-To: <20020223182424.42847.qmail@web14610.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <a5a81k+aq2l@eGroups.com>

--- Tasha--Nethilia <nethilia at y...> wrote:
> i found out yesterday that my favorite uncle died.
> dunno why. he was my mom's baby brother. 
> 
> i can't go to the funeral, cause i live in exas and he
> lived in wisconsin, and since it's not immediate
> family i can't get time off from my classes. 

*Hugs* Hugs to your family, too, because I'm here in WI!




From saintbacchus at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 24 08:34:51 2002
From: saintbacchus at yahoo.com (saintbacchus)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 08:34:51 -0000
Subject: "Coming with?", Canadian/American accents
In-Reply-To: <a5a0ot+dit1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a5a8jb+rru1@eGroups.com>

--- "alyeskakc" <alyeskakc at n...> wrote:

> Here in the States we tend to say "a-bow-t"(like take a bow) and 
> "saw-ry", whereas the Candians I've run across tend to say "a-boot" 
> and "sow-ry". I've also noticed it during interviews with some 
> Canadian actors as well. Just my observation.

Maybe instead of Canada being another American state, Wisconsin is a 
lost province. Right around Beaver Dam (about halfway north), people 
start saying "sow-ry" and "eh." We also say "come with," even in 
southern Wisconsin. I had no idea that was a regional phrase!

We don't say "a-boot" or "a-gain" (as opposed to "a-gin"), though. 
Those seem to be exclusively Canadian pronunciations.




From saintbacchus at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 24 08:46:54 2002
From: saintbacchus at yahoo.com (saintbacchus)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 08:46:54 -0000
Subject: English around the world/around Australia
In-Reply-To: <a58bt9+jui4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a5a99u+vo7s@eGroups.com>

--- "pengolodh_sc" <pengolodh_sc at y...> wrote:

<<
Is THAT what it is supposed to be? I always presumed it
was a little known accent from some obscure place in the
North-West US (Washington State or Oregon), or perhaps
Canada. It certainly didn't sound to me like it had
anything to do with England.
>>

Funny you should mention it; apparently, Jane Leeves has
a real British accent, it's just not Manchester. I guess
it would be like me trying to do a Texas drawl. Wouldn't
quite work. I'm much better at the Fargo-style Minnewegian.
^_^ Incidentally, her accent does sound British to me.

While we're on the subject, does anyone know of a good site
where one can hear samples of different dialects and accents
(or just read about them)?




From macloudt at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Feb 24 10:59:17 2002
From: macloudt at yahoo.co.uk (macloudt)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 10:59:17 -0000
Subject: Favorite Saturday Night Live Skits
In-Reply-To: <a4s6ik+sbgg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a5ah25+1hp4@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "jenny_ravenclaw" <meboriqua at a...> wrote:

> What other skits do people laugh out loud just thinking about?  I'd 
> have to go with "Mr. Robinson's Neighborhood" (where he tells the 
> "kids" how to use the word 'bitch'), and definitely Buckwheat's 
> Greatest Hits, particularly "Wookin' Pa Nub" (or however it was 
> written).  I'm sure there are others, but I just can't remember.
> 
Sorry for my rather late reply to this, but our little household was 
struck down with a flu bug all week.  Loads of fun...

Yes, Buckwheat sings the classics!  My favourite part was his Bob 
Dylan imitation; the similarity was striking!

My friend's two brothers did a brilliant imitation of Hans and Frans, 
and, boy, did they pump (clap!) us up, complete with little girly men 
and the beach being that way.  I loved SNL in the 80's, but stopped 
watching it in the early 90's as it just didn't appeal to me 
anymore.  This phenomenon in no way relects a growth of maturity on 
my part (far from it ;) ), but the new cast simply didn't appeal.

Now who remembers watching SCTV?  Any takers?  And take off, eh?

Mary Ann
(who consumed far too much paracetamol over the past week for her own 
good...it shows, doesn't it?)




From macloudt at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Feb 24 11:44:01 2002
From: macloudt at yahoo.co.uk (macloudt)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 11:44:01 -0000
Subject: Star Trek spoofs
In-Reply-To: <a53oer+jv69@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a5ajm1+jabc@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "lupinesque" <aiz24 at h...> wrote:

  "Star Trek II: The Wrath of Farrakhan" is one of the best ST 
> parodies I've ever seen (though SNL did a good one too).
> 
> Amy

My personal favourite ST parody is the Carol Burnett one, where the 
Enterprise flies through the Estrogena cloud (or some such) and turns 
the crew female--except for Uhura, of course, who becomes a man, 
complete with big hair and sexy miniskirt.  Carol as James looked 
splendid an atomic weapon-like bra no original series guest actress 
could be without, and Spock (Andrea Martin) becomes premenstrual.  I 
haven't seen this sketch for almost 10 years, but just thinking about 
it still makes me laugh.

Dawn French and Jennifer Saunders also did a good ST spoof which was 
based on the O.J. Simpson trial.  This one gets shown on British TV 
every few years, thankfully.  Of course, any spoof by French and 
Saunders is fantastic.

Mary Ann :)




From macloudt at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Feb 24 13:25:06 2002
From: macloudt at yahoo.co.uk (macloudt)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 13:25:06 -0000
Subject: Sport/Nonsport
In-Reply-To: <a53t52+rqo7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a5apji+mtts@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "cindysphynx" <cindysphynx at h...> wrote:

> So IMO sports can stay in the Olympics if:
> 
> 1.  There is an element of risk that something will go wrong;
> 2.  There is physical exertion (mental exertion isn't enough, 
because 
> if it were, there would be an Olympic event called "Cross-
> Examination");
> 3.  It is something people might actually do in real life (this 
rules 
> out things like flinging a ribbon around while doing flips); and 
> 4.  People can watch it without snickering (this rules out 
> synchronized swimming). 

The one "sport" whose inclusion would turn me off the Olympics 
forever is *darts*.  Yes, skill is involved...I for one should never 
be allowed to through blunt objects around in public, never mind 
sharp ones...but have you *seen* these guys?  Last I 
heard, "athletes" didn't look as if they had 2 family-sized pizzas 
and a 12-pack of Bud for breakfast.  Next to these guys, I look like 
Twiggy.  I can handle the BBC showing darts from time to time 
whenever big events are on, but calling it a sport is pushing it.  We 
should come up with a new word for such "sports", any and all which 
don't meet with Cindy's nifty 4-point system.  Any takers?

Mary Ann
(who enjoys watching snooker, but wouldn't call that a sport either)




From plum at cream.org  Sun Feb 24 13:57:02 2002
From: plum at cream.org (GulPlum)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 13:57:02 -0000
Subject: UK vs. US editions
In-Reply-To: <a58uhs+na61@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a5arfe+cc3v@eGroups.com>

"serenadust" <jmmears at p...> wrote:

> You make some excellent points concerning how difficult it is in 
the 
> US to access non-American books, tv, and films.  It can be done, 
but 
> it takes some effort, and most people simply aren't sufficiently 
> motivated to make that effort.  You can't really blame the American 
> people for this IMO.  

*sigh*

I did not say that I blame the American people! I specifically and 
deliberately used that exact phrase in my previous post. 


> I know that it's "generally accepted" that British TV is among the 
> best in the world, but it's mainly because that only the very best 
> of British TV is exported (shown mostly on PBS and A&E cable).  

As far as I'm concerned, the quality of British TV isn't down to the 
proportion of quality stuff that's exported (or even the proportions 
domestically which can be considered to be of high quality). A lot of 
British TV is utter crap. The wonder is the mixture of programming 
that is available across all the channels (not just the BBC). 

After all, what is "quality TV"? Different people value different 
things, and not everyone wants highbrow dramas or foreign-language 
films 24 hours a day. The fact is, though, that in the UK you don't 
need to seek out this kind of stuff or subscribe to niche cable 
channels, it's there available in the prime-time mix.

But this isn't just about TV: my local cinema multiplex is as likely 
to show the latest French or Italian classic as it is to show a 
Hollywood blockbuster. Sure, it won't have as much of an audience, 
but at least it's available to those who want to see it.

<snip>

> I'm not aware that the president has much to do with which books, 
TV 
> shows or movies are presented in the US.  

I wasn't putting him forward as someone who is responsible for the 
problems I outlined. I put him forward as a *symptom*. 

> I'm sorry, but I find your 
> *buffoon* remark really insulting and the latest in a LONG series 
of 
> cheap political shots on this list which seem to go unchallenged 
> (how about this mods?).  I don't recall any cultural renaissance 
> under the previous (8 LONG years) administration, who, I assume you 
> admire (unless you count mainstream news outlets having to deal 
with 
> describing various interesting sexual practices which never had any 
> reason to appear in respectable daily papers before).

Don't get me wrong, I'm not putting Clinton forward as some paragon 
of virtue, or as necessarily politically superior to Bush (even 
though, in some respects, I think he was). However, Bush is incapable 
of behaving like a statesman (unlike even his father) and his 
priorities as leader of the richest and most powerful country on our 
planet frankly scare me.

To misquote Lupin (?), the true test of a person's character is not 
how he treats his social peers or superiors, but his social 
inferiors. My impression of Bush to date is that he has nothing but 
disdain for his fellow countrymen unless they're rich or powerful. As 
for his attitude towards the rest of the world, the less said the 
better. And as for his *knowledge* of the outside world, well...

> I realize that this list is OT chatter, and pretty much anything 
> goes, but there are a fair number of ad hominum political insults 
> appearing regularly here and they all seem to be coming from only 
> one end of the political spectrum. So far, those of us who don't 
> agree with them have let them go, but if this keeps up, I expect a 
> flame war will eventually result.  I don't *think* anyone wants 
> this, but I could be wrong.

Err... sorry, but this is a discussion list. We all have equal rights 
and opportunities to voice our opinions. If someone says something 
with which you disagree, please don't blame it on the mods if it goes 
unchallenged. If the general tone of this list is not to your 
political preference, you have only to speak up on behalf of your own 
views to redress the balance...






From john at walton.vu  Sun Feb 24 14:19:51 2002
From: john at walton.vu (John Walton)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 14:19:51 +0000
Subject: ADMIN: NO POLITICAL DISCUSSION
In-Reply-To: <a5arfe+cc3v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <B89EA707.B0E9%john@walton.vu>

*Howler explodes in the middle of the OTChatter list*

Okay, folks, you've had one warning from Nice!Mod Penny.

In my hand, I am holding a Rock. On it, it has the words "Moderated Status"
on it in a very pretty calligraphic script. Anybody posting anything
political after this message will be hit with it, which means that the Mods
will have to approve your messages before they're released to the rest of
the group.

Political discussions are banned here for one simple reason: they create a
hostile list atmosphere, with one group or another feeling outnumbered and
victimised. This is not what we want here on OTChatter, or, in fact,
anywhere in the HPFGU community.

Again, I'd like to echo Penny when she said that we read all the mail that
is sent to us (even the spam...) at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com
(Mods and Elves) or magicalmods at yahoogroups.com (Mods only), and we do
investigate all complaints. Of course, the action we take is often not
visible (i.e. off-list reminders or howlers), but it's there nonetheless.

Cheers,

--John, for the Moderator Team
____________________________________________

"To the well-organized mind, death is but the next great adventure."
--Albus Dumbledore

John Walton || john at walton.vu
____________________________________________





From plum at cream.org  Sun Feb 24 14:28:56 2002
From: plum at cream.org (GulPlum)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 14:28:56 -0000
Subject: UK vs. US editions
In-Reply-To: <a59dfk+rnin@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a5atb9+cvkn@eGroups.com>

"joanne0012" <Joanne0012 at a...> wrote:
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "GulPlum" <plum at c...> wrote:
> > For a nation of immigrants which used to use the term "melting 
pot" 
> > to describe itself, the US is doing very badly at opening its 
> > constituent ethnic groups to each other.
> 
> I don't understand why you say this.  The immigrant experience has 
changed very 
> little in the past 100 years

<snip>

Thank you. That is *exactly* my point. As a nation of immigrants, 
surely it should be expected that after 200 years (how many 
generations does that make), it would have had integration of other 
cultures and values sussed? 

Looking at it from outside, one of the major problems the US has is 
that its (non-WASP) society remains largely ghettoised, and more 
disturbingly, *wilfully* ghettoised, both by the power structures in 
place (how many times does one hear in American elections of 
the "Irish vote", the "Italian vote", etc) and by the people 
themselves.

Hand on heart, how many Americans really mix with people of different 
ethnic backgrounds?

Please don't misunderstand me: I am well aware of and painfully 
understand problems of integration and ghettoisation. My own elderly 
parents are (WWII) Polish immigrants and managed the process of 
integration very badly, for a million and one reasons, most stemming 
from their own lack of formal education and personal circumstances. 
However, even they appreciate the need to have learned the local 
language (even if not particularly well) and to accept certain mores 
which they perhaps don't fully understand in order to make their 
lives a success and to bring up their kids. My sisters all married 
English (or, in one case, Welsh) men, but bring up their own kids as 
British but with an appreciation of their mothers' heritage. 

I have a deep personal understanding of what it means to have split 
national loyalties (for good reasons I won't waste time explaining, I 
am the most "Polish" of my siblings), and have no problem with 
feeling equally 100% British and 100% Polish (other than whenever 
England plays Poland in soccer). :-) However, in my day-to-day life, 
I live in this country, and this is where my priorities lie.







From plum at cream.org  Sun Feb 24 14:49:33 2002
From: plum at cream.org (GulPlum)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 14:49:33 -0000
Subject: UK vs. US editions
In-Reply-To: <003101c1bcf0$eb8c54e0$337c63d1@texas.net>
Message-ID: <a5auht+2f7q@eGroups.com>

"Amanda" <editor at t...> wrote:
> GulPlum shared her opinions thusly:

Err.... I'm male. Well, I was the last time I checked.

<looks down>

Yup, it's still there.  :-)

(sorry, I couldn't stop myself)

<snip>

> May I point out that this is not particularly constructive advice, 
to
> address a not particularly burning problem, and it also violates 
the list's
> ban on political statements? Some people, present company included, 
could
> find that comment more than just a tad on the offensive side and be 
biting
> their tongues, which is painful. Please don't make me do that again.

Point taken. I apologise for going too far and will try not to do so 
again. I'd just like to explain that I wasn't trying to score any 
kind of party-political points, but I used an unfortunately 
sensistive example to explain a point about American cutural 
ghettoisation as I see it. 

Incidentally, from where I'm sitting, the whole issue 
of "translating" the HP books (which is where this started) is very 
intensely political - obviously not in itself, but it is a definite 
symptom of American media priorities and how they treat the American 
people...

I will therefore shut up on this whole topic, as I'm likely to cross 
the line again and offend/insult/enrage someone else, which is 
certainly not my intention. 

For the record, I am not anti-American and unlike some people with 
whom I've discussed these issues, do not subscribe to the "dumb 
Yanks" tendency. (I said some more here, but have deleted it before 
it gets me into hot water again.)





From macloudt at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Feb 24 15:04:46 2002
From: macloudt at yahoo.co.uk (macloudt)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 15:04:46 -0000
Subject: "Coming with?", Canadian/American accents
In-Reply-To: <a59v1b+j389@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a5avee+sm8r@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "athene_51" <athene_51 at y...> wrote:
> Hi all!
> 
> Not sure if I've ever posted here before, but wanted to weigh in 
with 
> a Canadian perspective...
> 
> Aberforth's Goat wrote:
> > BTW, I once had a Canadian friend who would always "come with."
> > Whether this was normal, I don't know; in many other respects, he
> > wasn't, so there's no telling.
> 
> Is this really seen as a Canadian phrase? I've lived in Canada all 
my 
> life, and I have never heard a Canadian say this.

I must say that, in during my 25-odd years of living in Canada I 
never heard this phrase either.  Either it's regional, or it is 
specific to one or a few ethnic groups.

Coming back to what Tabouli was saying about South African English, 
some of the phrases you stated are grammatically correct in Dutch.  
I'm sure I don't need to tell you that the Boers originated from the 
Netherlands, and while Afrikaans and Dutch are very distinct there 
are still similar enough for a not-quite-fluent Dutch speaker like 
myself to understand a lot of Afrikaans.  The same would happen with 
English in, say, the US and Canada, especially where one ethnic group 
is prevalent.  Grammar and vocabulary from the immigrant language 
will creep into the surrounding English language.

My parents immigrated from the Netherlands to Canada, but we moved 
back to the Netherlands for a few years when I was a baby.  So 
technically Dutch is my mother tongue, but I speak Dutch with a 
Canadian accent, and my mom told me that often I'd use English 
grammar while speaking Dutch.

Just a little piece of trivial garbage for you.

Cheers!

Mary Ann :)




From keegan at mcn.org  Sun Feb 24 15:11:16 2002
From: keegan at mcn.org (Catherine Keegan)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 07:11:16 -0800
Subject: wow
In-Reply-To: <a5auht+2f7q@eGroups.com>
References: <003101c1bcf0$eb8c54e0$337c63d1@texas.net>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20020224070036.00a2e2c0@mail.mcn.org>

I was away for a week and came back to find my favorite cozy Potter list 
smoldering but not quite in flames.  Thanks, mods!

So, a new topic must be in order.  Hmmm.  *looks around the house and 
scratches her head, trying to think before finishing that first cup of 
coffee...*

Surely we can discuss something fun.  Food?  Music.  Ah, maybe music would 
be a good topic.  OK, here's my possibly pathetic attempt at a non 
political, OT, chatty kind of topic.

What do you put onto the stereo (oi!  I'm showing my age.  CD player.) when 
you sit down for a nice long afternoon or evening of reading?

How about writing or being creative in some other form?

I'm partial to almost anything instrumental for reading or anything from 
our huge collection of Irish/Scottish music.  The Slavic bits work well, too.

Writing: weird stuff.  Love Dead Can Dance, Medaevil Baebes, Wolgemut and 
show tunes.  Current revisited favorite "Chess" - the British version 
(argh!  Had to bring in a country reference but the US edition is so lame 
in comparison.)

Catherine in California.  Time for more coffee, it's only just past 7 AM 
here on an overcast morning.





From lordzenya at aol.com  Sun Feb 24 15:24:55 2002
From: lordzenya at aol.com (lord_zenya)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 15:24:55 -0000
Subject: Another Group Question
Message-ID: <a5b0k7+5g0b@eGroups.com>

Hi,

A little while ago a posted 
a question about groups.
I got my answer, but now 
I need to know what does 
"killing a group" mean. 
I am guessing it means 
your group just gets deleted (right?).

Thanks.




From macloudt at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Feb 24 15:38:50 2002
From: macloudt at yahoo.co.uk (macloudt)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 15:38:50 -0000
Subject: Music (was wow)
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20020224070036.00a2e2c0@mail.mcn.org>
Message-ID: <a5b1ea+uqlo@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., Catherine Keegan <keegan at m...> wrote:

> What do you put onto the stereo (oi!  I'm showing my age.  CD 
player.) when 
> you sit down for a nice long afternoon or evening of reading?
> 
> How about writing or being creative in some other form?

Hey, my DH still says hi-fi sometimes!  And we've still got loads of 
records...y'know, round black things with a hole in the middle :)

Well, while reading or studying it has to be instrumental as I'm 
distracted very easily.  While at uni I made good use of a Gregorian 
Chant CD I had, and if my mood was low enough I put on Gorecki's 
(sp?  Too lazy to check) 3rd Symphony.  At other times my mom just 
banged away on the piano, which stood just above my bedroom, and 
drove me nuts.

Now I'm a Domestic Goddess and no longer studying I can be more 
adventurous with what I throw on the stereo.  When I'm ironing (a 
rare occurence) I put on rock classics like Styx and the Guess Who.  
When I have a sick child on my lap (a frequent occurence) it's Enya, 
Clannad, Adiemus or the Medieval Baebes (another fan here!).  When 
it's me and DH and a bottle of something-or-other and all the kids 
are in bed, it's whatever tickles our fancy.  Our stereo has a 5-CD 
player and the combo of discs in there can be quite 
interesting.   :::::runs off to check:::::  At the moment it is 
housing Simon and Garfunkel, Roy Orbison, Mozart, Clannad, and Neil 
Young.  Now does that indicate a broad love of music, or a 
personality disorder?

Answers in a plain brown envelope, please.

Mary Ann
(who is not in the same room as the stereo because a kiddie nursery 
rhyme tape is playing...aarrgh...)




From s_ings at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 24 15:39:58 2002
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 10:39:58 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Happy Birthday, Michelle!
In-Reply-To: <a5apji+mtts@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20020224153958.18946.qmail@web14608.mail.yahoo.com>

Happy Birthday to Michelle, who's been with us for
just 2 weeks today. Birthday greetings can be sent to
harry_potter_uk2002uk at yahoo.co.uk or to this list.

May it be a magical day of butterbeer and chocolate
frogs, Michelle!

Sheryll

=====
"We need to be united and strong. We'll have losses and scares, sure. And you'll be there for each other, helping each other through the bad times."
 blpurdom - Harry Potter and the Psychic Serpent, Chapter 26

______________________________________________________________________ 
Web-hosting solutions for home and business! http://website.yahoo.ca



From witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 24 16:21:44 2002
From: witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com (Wanda Mallett)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 08:21:44 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Happy Birthday, Michelle!
In-Reply-To: <20020224153958.18946.qmail@web14608.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020224162144.62235.qmail@web13704.mail.yahoo.com>


 
  Sheryll Townsend <s_ings at yahoo.com> wrote: 
Happy Birthday to Michelle, who's been with us for
just 2 weeks today. Birthday greetings can be sent to
harry_potter_uk2002uk at yahoo.co.uk or to this list.

Well a great Big HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO MICHELLE OVER THERE! May you get all your Birthday wishes and more! Plenty of HP goodies to boot! All of us here in Revere, Massachusetts, U.S.A. toast you! Have a great day all day!

Schnoogles,

Wanda the Witch of Revere, Massachusetts and Her Very Merry Band of Muggles 100% 



---------------------------------
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From Joanne0012 at aol.com  Sun Feb 24 16:24:16 2002
From: Joanne0012 at aol.com (joanne0012)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 16:24:16 -0000
Subject: UK vs. US editions
In-Reply-To: <a5atb9+cvkn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a5b43g+c30c@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "GulPlum" <plum at c...> wrote:
> "joanne0012" <Joanne0012 at a...> wrote:
> > --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "GulPlum" <plum at c...> wrote:
> > > For a nation of immigrants which used to use the term "melting 
> pot" 
> > > to describe itself, the US is doing very badly at opening its 
> > > constituent ethnic groups to each other.
> > 
> > I don't understand why you say this.  The immigrant experience has 
> changed very 
> > little in the past 100 years
> 
> <snip>
> 
> Thank you. That is *exactly* my point. As a nation of immigrants, 
> surely it should be expected that after 200 years (how many 
> generations does that make), it would have had integration of other 
> cultures and values sussed? 

Are you saying that there's some reasonable way to get granny to learn a new 
language and change her cooking habits?  I doubt it!  My point was that there's 
nothing that can be done to accelerate this process, human nature being what it 
is,  but it does happen.  The experiences of first, second and third-generation 
Americans have proceeded in similar patterns for those 200 years and frankly I 
can't imagine it any other way. I'm curious how you visualize some other process 
would actually happen.

> Looking at it from outside, one of the major problems the US has is 
> that its (non-WASP) society remains largely ghettoised, and more 
> disturbingly, *wilfully* ghettoised, both by the power structures in 
> place (how many times does one hear in American elections of 
> the "Irish vote", the "Italian vote", etc) and by the people 
> themselves.

I can't recall hearing those terms at all for decades, and I think I'd remember, 
since two of my grandparents were born in Italy and another was Irish.  Even 
here in Boston, the stragglers who are holding on to the old ways (especially the 
Irish enclave in Southie; the new Irish immigrants swear those folks are living in a 
time capsule) are gradually, finally, acculturating.  These things take time.




From s_ings at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 24 17:01:25 2002
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 12:01:25 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] SCTV (was:Re: Favorite Saturday Night Live Skits)
In-Reply-To: <a5ah25+1hp4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20020224170125.96694.qmail@web14607.mail.yahoo.com>


--- macloudt <macloudt at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> Now who remembers watching SCTV?  Any takers?  And
> take off, eh?
> 
But of course! I loved any bit that had MacKenzie
brothers.

Take off, eh, to the Great, White North!

Sheryll, confessing to owning the Bob and Doug
Christmas CD :D

=====
"We need to be united and strong. We'll have losses and scares, sure. And you'll be there for each other, helping each other through the bad times."
 blpurdom - Harry Potter and the Psychic Serpent, Chapter 26

______________________________________________________________________ 
Web-hosting solutions for home and business! http://website.yahoo.ca



From s_ings at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 24 17:27:12 2002
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 12:27:12 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] "Coming with?", Canadian/American accents
In-Reply-To: <a59v1b+j389@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20020224172712.40706.qmail@web14605.mail.yahoo.com>


--- athene_51 <athene_51 at yahoo.ca> wrote:
> Hi all!
> 
> Not sure if I've ever posted here before, but wanted
> to weigh in with 
> a Canadian perspective...
> 
> Aberforth's Goat wrote:
> > BTW, I once had a Canadian friend who would always
> "come with."
> > Whether this was normal, I don't know; in many
> other respects, he
> > wasn't, so there's no telling.
> 
> Is this really seen as a Canadian phrase? I've lived
> in Canada all my 
> life, and I have never heard a Canadian say this.
> The only time I ran 
> across it was a British man I used to work with. He
> was forever 
> saying "I'm going to [do whatever], want to come
> with?" etc.
> 
I've never heard this one either. I suspect it's
specific to a particular province, possible one of the
Maritime provinces. My guess would be Newfoundland or
New Brunswick. Newfoundland's version of English is a
separate language, all it's own. New Brunswick has
it's share of interesting expressions, most of which
are particular their own little section of the
province. For example, the section of New Brunswick my
family is from says 'boughten' to refer to something
you purchase in the store (as opposed to making
yourself), like 'boughten bread' or 'boughten
cookies'. And the term, as far as I know, is used
specifically for foodstuffs. 

Sheryll, who uses such expressions herself, especially
after an extended visit to the east coast :)

=====
"We need to be united and strong. We'll have losses and scares, sure. And you'll be there for each other, helping each other through the bad times."
 blpurdom - Harry Potter and the Psychic Serpent, Chapter 26

______________________________________________________________________ 
Web-hosting solutions for home and business! http://website.yahoo.ca



From lordzenya at aol.com  Sun Feb 24 17:36:38 2002
From: lordzenya at aol.com (lord_zenya)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 17:36:38 -0000
Subject: Help please
Message-ID: <a5b8b7+po87@eGroups.com>

Hi, I really need to know the answers to these questions.

1. is everthing about owning a group free.

2. What is eGroups-Moderator-News	

3. I need to know what does 
"killing a group" mean. 
I am guessing it means 
your group just gets deleted (right?).

Please help.
Thanks Hurry




From bludger_witch at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 24 19:02:38 2002
From: bludger_witch at yahoo.com (Dinah)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 20:02:38 +0100
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] wow
References: <003101c1bcf0$eb8c54e0$337c63d1@texas.net> <4.2.0.58.20020224070036.00a2e2c0@mail.mcn.org>
Message-ID: <001b01c1bd66$94ef5030$512e07d5@Dinah>

I have about 200 CD's, all very different, so it gets a bit difficult. It
depends mostly on the mood I'm in.When I'm painting, e.g. I love to listen
to the Grateful Dead (best a live CD) or to Celtic music (instrumental).
When I'm writing it depends on what kind of story, what kind of mood and so
on. Donovan is nice, too.

Matchbox 20 is good, as well as Vonda Shepard, Texas, Holly Cole, Beautiful
South, Barenaked Ladies, Sarah McLachlan... I love singer/songwriter music.
If a voice is interesting it's on my list automatically. As mentioned Vonda
Shepard, Chris Williamson, Kari Bremnes & Silje Neergard (Skandinavian
singers, Kari writes moody, calm songs, Silje jazzy stuff), Mediaeval
Baebes, Miranda Sex Garden, Rufus Wainwright,... and the list goes on and
on.

Then there's the stuff I dubbed "Driving music". Ryan Adams, Dandy Warhols,
Shakira, Melissa Etheridge, Leona Ness, Liz Phair, Melissa Ferrick, Indigo
Girls, K.D. Lang, . It's just music that is great to listen to when you're
driving in your car by yourself, singing your lungs out, or reading in your
room on a summer's night with all windows open.

And then there's always the Moulin Rouge Soundtrack which is lovely but
honestly unplacable for me.

~ Dinah ~

"You got a big mouth." The thug told Kerry.
"That's all right. You've got a pea brain." Kerry responded. "And I can
always shut up."
"Huh?" (Terrors of the High Seas, Missy Good)



_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From andrew_macian at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 24 20:01:09 2002
From: andrew_macian at yahoo.com (Andrew MacIan)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 12:01:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Help please
In-Reply-To: <a5b8b7+po87@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20020224200109.75095.qmail@web9505.mail.yahoo.com>

Greetings from Andrew!


--- lord_zenya <lordzenya at aol.com> wrote:
> Hi, I really need to know the answers to these
> questions.
{snip}

RTFM.

It is usually found in or around Yahoo's 'help' pages
that are associated with the groups.  Have a look at
Yahoo's main page, then select 'more' than in the list
of options that follows, select 'groups.

Alternatively, you might try emailing them; I'm sure
that an appropriate address is associated with the
help pages that will come using the above method.

Andrew

=====
ICQ # 76184391

'Each game of chess means there's one less
      Variation left to be played;
 Each day got through means one or two less
      Mistakes remain to be made.'
      --'Chess' by Sir Tim Rice

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games
http://sports.yahoo.com



From mlfrasher at aol.com  Sun Feb 24 20:21:24 2002
From: mlfrasher at aol.com (mlfrasher at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 15:21:24 EST
Subject: Men My mother warned me about...from main list
Message-ID: <ca.712fdd5.29aaa544@aol.com>

me:

> margaraeta, who adores this character even though he's what my 
> mother always warned me about

catlady_de_los_angeles:

>>>(Yes, I know this should be on OT.) Hey, Raeta, did your mum REALLY 
warn you against men with yellow teeth and greasy hair who were 
sarcastic and unfair and cruel and had formerly been a member of a 
terrorist group? My mum was too unimaginative to think that I would 
ever be attracted to someone so unattractive. I hate to admit it, but 
she was right: *I* won't kiss dear Sevvie until he takes off that 
illusion of his teeth being rotted and broken -- or gets dentures.


Actually she did 'warn' me about men with bad teeth.  It's a pet peeve of 
hers.  And she's always warned me about cruel people.

My reference to 'adore' was more in line with having a fascination with the 
character, rather than planning to have a romantic encounter.  You can adore 
or be interested in someone without envisioning a physical relationship.

And as for sarcasm, I don't always see that as a bad characteristic. 

margaraeta







From Indyfans at aol.com  Sun Feb 24 20:33:45 2002
From: Indyfans at aol.com (Indyfans at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 15:33:45 EST
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] "Coming with?", Canadian/American accents
Message-ID: <ad.18c9c205.29aaa829@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/24/02 12:29:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
s_ings at yahoo.com writes:
         
<< 
 > Aberforth's Goat wrote:
 > > BTW, I once had a Canadian friend who would always
 > "come with."
 > > Whether this was normal, I don't know; in many
 > other respects, he
 > > wasn't, so there's no telling.
 > 
 > Is this really seen as a Canadian phrase? I've lived
 > in Canada all my 
 > life, and I have never heard a Canadian say this.
 > The only time I ran 
 > across it was a British man I used to work with. He
 > was forever 
 > saying "I'm going to [do whatever], want to come
 > with?" etc. >>

           We lived in Minnesota for 4 years, and the phrase  "want to come 
with?", and all its variations,  is used everyday.  I don't know where it 
started,  but it is definitely a Minnesotan staple of speech.  
                    Hope that helps, 
                                Jen



From voicelady at mymailstation.com  Sun Feb 24 21:13:01 2002
From: voicelady at mymailstation.com (voicelady)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 17:13:01 EDT
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Almost TOO off-topic...
Message-ID: <id.24022002171301.00000@FPE>

John wrote:  "...[snip of mods & elves e-mail addy and then:] 
... or magicalmods at yahoogroups.com (Mods only)..."

Okay, does my mind work in very strange ways, or did anyone else wonder for a split second why the mods chose as their e-mail address "magic almonds"?

Told you it was going to be off-topic...

Jeralyn, the Voicelady



From bray.262 at osu.edu  Sun Feb 24 22:32:35 2002
From: bray.262 at osu.edu (duranduran88)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 22:32:35 -0000
Subject: Music (was Wow)
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20020224070036.00a2e2c0@mail.mcn.org>
Message-ID: <a5bpm3+a7pm@eGroups.com>

 What do you put onto the stereo (oi!  I'm showing my age.  CD 
player.) when 
> you sit down for a nice long afternoon or evening of reading?
> 
> How about writing or being creative in some other form?


When all I want to do is read, I put on Piano Two, James Taylor, 
Andrea Bocelli or the soundtrack to Les Miserables (original cast) or 
Into the Woods (cast with Bernadette Peters as the witch).  And 
recently I've added Josh Groban to that list. 

When I want to write or do something creative....I blast Nine Inch 
Nails, Aerosmith, The Cure, INXS or U2.  For some reason, I 
get "inspired" when I can bop around the room.  :-)  I can't explain 
that.  It seriously does get my creative juices flowing.  I've been 
that way since high school.  Drove my parents nuts.  My roomies 
always knew when I had a paper due when I'd stalk into the living 
room, go through all our CDs/records and take out any that I could 
dance around violently to.  


Rachel Bray
(who is at her parents' house and working on their new computer...I 
guess the dinasaur in their old one finally died and therefore was 
nothing to turn the wheel to boot it up.)
(and who is remembering why she moved to Columbus (besides the fact 
that there was an outstanding job market at the time)...I'm 
surrounded my NASCAR fans here....HELP!)





From morrigan at byz.org  Sun Feb 24 23:24:44 2002
From: morrigan at byz.org (Morrigan //Vicki//)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 15:24:44 -0800
Subject: Come With?/Ethnocentricity
In-Reply-To: <a58ifv+7p2d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <NFBBLPEOCLIKCDBACHIBGEBEDBAA.morrigan@byz.org>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: triner2001 [mailto:triner918 at aol.com]
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "Tabouli" <tabouli at u...> wrote:
> >>When I was there, my South African friends used all sorts of
> Germanic constructions which I'd never heard in English before,
> like "I'm going to the library.  Are you coming with?" (="kommst du
> mit" structure, presumably... ending with a preposition, no object
> required).<<
>
> They do this in Chicago, too, presumably for the same reasons.  Being
> a down-stater from Central Illinois, this *really* bugged me when I
> first heard it from Chicago-raised friends in college. Soon, however,
> I picked it up myself, much to the dismay of my mom.  I've now
> dropped the habit since I now live in South Carolina, but every once
> in a while, I catch myself using the form.

THANK YOU!!!  When I first started reading this thread, I really thought I
was losing my mind.  I blinked at the screen and thought: "But *I* say
'coming with' all the time, and I've never left North America..."  You have
given me the answer!  It must be some Chicago thing!  I was born in and
spent the first 27 years in Chicago and the surrounding suburbs (and may be
returning there shortly, dratted lack of job opportunities).

I would like to gently point out that yes, Americans tend to be ethnocentric
in general.  As someone else mentioned, I believe it does have a great deal
to do with the media in this country.  It's very difficult to find
television or films that were made in other countries here.  For example, if
you have digital cable or satellite TV, you can get "BBC America."  *blinks*
Isn't that...contradictory?  The media seems to think that everything
outside our borders must be processed and Americanized like that horrible
yellow fake!cheese we have here before it can be served to the public.  I
find this annoying, as some others have expressed.  I have a great deal of
curiosity about other countries and their peoples.  I have a special love
for all things British, being that I've been an Anglophile since I was quite
young.  Even though there are not significant differences between the US and
UK HP books, I still wanted the UK versions as well for the sheer joy of
reading the English phrases.

As a small aside, I also wanted to point out that there are certainly things
that people in other countries assume about Americans, and I wanted to share
a couple that I find amusing that I hear over and over.  When I speak to
people online who are from outside of North America and they find out that
I'm from Chicago, I get 2 reactions:
1) Oooh, is the mob still so bad?  Do you know any of Al Capone's relatives?
or
2) Is it really as windy there as they say?
The answers are:
1) I don't know anyone in the mob, and Al Capone happened a loooong time
ago.  I don't think my parents were even born yet.  There may well be
mobsters in Chicago still, but I don't know anything about them.
2) Chicago being known as "The Windy City" has nothing to do with the
weather.  It refers to the political situation in the early 20th century,
where politicians were always spouting off and were referred to as
"windbags."  There were a lot of them in Chicago, hence, "The Windy City."

Of course, I now live in San Diego, California, and to confirm the rumors
for this city: Yes, we do have lots of palm tress, and yes, it is always
sunny.  You may now commence hating me. ;)

Vicki, amazingly long-winded for once
~~~
Wanna read me babble on and on?
http://www.livejournal.com/users/morrigan_veela
Me, rated G: www.byz.org/~morrigan
Morrigan's Harry Potter Slash www.byz.org/~morrigan/hpslash.html




From ganvira at earthlink.net  Sun Feb 24 23:33:47 2002
From: ganvira at earthlink.net (Terry van Ettinger)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 15:33:47 -0800
Subject: Psychic serpent????
References: <20020224153958.18946.qmail@web14608.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <015801c1bd8b$b5547740$0797cd18@charterpipeline.com>

Uh...psychic serpent?  Now where did that come from?  Someone's coming up
with fake books, I believe.  It *know* that wasn't something JKR wrote.

Terry
> "We need to be united and strong. We'll have losses and scares, sure. And
you'll be there for each other, helping each other through the bad times."
>  blpurdom - Harry Potter and the Psychic Serpent, Chapter 26





From blpurdom at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 24 23:55:47 2002
From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 23:55:47 -0000
Subject: "Coming with?", Canadian/American accents
In-Reply-To: <a5a8jb+rru1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a5bui3+qo67@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "saintbacchus" <saintbacchus at y...> 
wrote:

> Maybe instead of Canada being another American state, Wisconsin is 
> a lost province. Right around Beaver Dam (about halfway north), 
> people start saying "sow-ry" and "eh." We also say "come with," 
> even in southern Wisconsin. I had no idea that was a regional 
> phrase!
> 
> We don't say "a-boot" or "a-gain" (as opposed to "a-gin"), though. 
> Those seem to be exclusively Canadian pronunciations.

Actually, I think that's some of that Scottishness I mentioned 
creeping in there.  Some things stuck and others didn't.  Even 
regional US accents are like this.  I once had a co-worker who was a 
Boston native who had actually sounded--I thought--indistinguishible 
from someone from the Mid-Atlantic states, except she couldn't shake 
her pronuciation of "bathroom" ("BAHTH room").  I'd be having a 
conversation with her, and she sounded perfectly "normal" <snerk> 
and suddenly she'd say "BAHTH room."  I'd start looking around, 
wondering when a pod person had snuck in and replaced my friend...

And for some reason, a Scottish sort of thing that a lot of 
Presbyterian ministers tend to do (don't ask me why, perhaps it's 
because it's the Kirk of Scotland) is pronounce "measure" as "MAY-
zher."  It doesn't seem to matter where they're from.  (Maybe it's 
something they learned all at the same seminary.)  Go figure.  Eh.

--Barb
(who, in spite of living in Philly all her life, never says "Yo!")

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Psych
http://schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb




From andrew_macian at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 24 23:56:57 2002
From: andrew_macian at yahoo.com (Andrew MacIan)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 15:56:57 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Psychic serpent????
In-Reply-To: <015801c1bd8b$b5547740$0797cd18@charterpipeline.com>
Message-ID: <20020224235657.50169.qmail@web9507.mail.yahoo.com>

Greetings from Andrew!

"Minds are like parachutes...."

--- Terry van Ettinger <ganvira at earthlink.net> wrote:
> Uh...psychic serpent?  Now where did that come from?
>  Someone's coming up
> with fake books, I believe.  It *know* that wasn't
> something JKR wrote.

It's called 'fan fiction', and it is one of the major
attractions to a lot of folks about HP...as well as
Star Trek, Babylon-5, X-Files, D&D and a virtual host
of other things.  The ability to interact within a
framework that is attractive/addictive is something
that stirs the creative in a lot of people.

So, no; it's not Rowling's writing, but her universe,
and hardly 'fake'.  Barb (the author of the story in
question) is on this list, and has her own group on
Yahoo devoted to her writing.

You might try searching Yahoo groups and giving it a
read.

Drieux

=====
ICQ # 76184391

'Each game of chess means there's one less
      Variation left to be played;
 Each day got through means one or two less
      Mistakes remain to be made.'
      --'Chess' by Sir Tim Rice

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games
http://sports.yahoo.com



From heidit at netbox.com  Mon Feb 25 00:05:48 2002
From: heidit at netbox.com (heidit at netbox.com)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 19:05:48 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Psychic serpent????
In-Reply-To: 407e4dd
Message-ID: <16600678.1386280478@imcingular.com>

Well, I don't think that fanfic novels can be deemed "fake books" - they're things written by fans of jkr's novels, and they take place in the universe she so wonderfully created.

If you're curious about fanfic and have never visited the world of hp fanfic, try http://www.fictionalley.org/primer or http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/faq/fanfic.html.

And if you want to find Psychic Serpent you can visit http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks and searc for Barb.

Heidi Tandy
Follow me to FictionAlley - Harry Potter fanfics of all shapes, sizes and ships - 7 sickles an ounce
http://www.FictionAlley.org

----Original Message----

From: "Terry van Ettinger" <ganvira at earthlink.net>
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Psychic serpent????
Real-To:  "Terry van Ettinger" <ganvira at earthlink.net>

Uh...psychic serpent?  Now where did that come from?  Someone's coming up
with fake books, I believe.  It *know* that wasn't something JKR wrote.

Terry
> "We need to be united and strong. We'll have losses and scares, sure. And
you'll be there for each other, helping each other through the bad times."
>  blpurdom - Harry Potter and the Psychic Serpent, Chapter 26




________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________

Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the group's Admin Files!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/

Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying!

Is your message...
An announcement of merchandise, news etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements.
Movie-related? Send it to HPFGU-Movie.
Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups.
None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter.
Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com

Unsubscribing? Email HPFGU-OTChatter-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
____________________________________________________________


Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/





From witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 25 00:47:22 2002
From: witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com (Wanda Mallett)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 16:47:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Canadian Accents
Message-ID: <20020225004722.24202.qmail@web13703.mail.yahoo.com>


 

Sheryll has written:

possible one of the
Maritime provinces. My guess would be Newfoundland or
New Brunswick. Newfoundland's version of English is a
separate language, all it's own. New Brunswick has
it's share of interesting expressions

Hey, Sheryll, when I was in New Castle, New Brunswick, many moons ago with my ex, there were quite a few there that did sound a lot like Bob and Doug MacKenzie! Special some of the older folk. But I loved all the skits of those two brothers! Especially their movie Strange Brew and the famous pee scene to put out the brewery fire! My boys got to see that movie a few months ago, and I thought they were going to pee themselves from laughing! 

Just like in the states, everywhere there is an accent of some sorts! I learned from my friend from Columbia, S.A. that there are many accents with the spanish language too! Dialect differences in each country and within each country! Very interesting to know! Well, this is a world of many languages and accents, which keeps things always on the move!

Just adding my few knuts into the conversation! Hope all is well with evrybody!

Schnoogles,

Wanda the Wich of Revere, Massachuseetss and Her Very Merry Band of Muggles 100% 

 






---------------------------------
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From nethilia at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 25 02:51:56 2002
From: nethilia at yahoo.com (Tasha--Nethilia)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 18:51:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Thanks for the hugs. 
In-Reply-To: <1014563062.383.44763.m12@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20020225025156.61508.qmail@web14603.mail.yahoo.com>

Thanks to everyone who sent me hugs, both on and
offlist. it made me feel better. I still wish I could
go. Stupid Universitys. 

friday my fiends IRL comforted me and took me out, and
kept me occupied all weekend so I wouldn't sulk in my
dorm by myself. Last time a realtive died I drank
until I was calm (yes, a bad coping mechanism, I
know). This time I didn't drink at all, unless you
count the juice and four Brisks. 

--Neth

=====
--Nethilia de Lobo--
79% obsessed with Harry Potter
Wand: Dragon Heartstring, Ash, 7 inches
**Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus.**

http://www.geocities.com/spenecial
Spenecial.com. Two girls. One Website. Total Chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games
http://sports.yahoo.com



From catlady at wicca.net  Mon Feb 25 03:31:26 2002
From: catlady at wicca.net (catlady_de_los_angeles)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 03:31:26 -0000
Subject: Happy Birthday, Michelle!
In-Reply-To: <20020224153958.18946.qmail@web14608.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <a5cb6e+64rm@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., Sheryll Townsend <s_ings at y...> wrote:
> Happy Birthday to Michelle, who's been with us for
> just 2 weeks today. Birthday greetings can be sent to
> harry_potter_uk2002uk at y... or to this list.

Happy Birthday to Michelle the newcomer with the semi-palindrome 
sign-on! 




From saintbacchus at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 25 03:54:55 2002
From: saintbacchus at yahoo.com (saintbacchus)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 03:54:55 -0000
Subject: Favorite Saturday Night Live Skits
In-Reply-To: <a5ah25+1hp4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a5ccif+kt9r@eGroups.com>

--- "macloudt" <macloudt at y...> wrote:

<<
Now who remembers watching SCTV? Any takers? And take
off, eh?
>>

I was, unfortunately, too young to have watched SCTV, but
I saw one episode on Nick at Nite's tenth anniversary
special, and I'd love to see more. The thing that sticks
with me about that episode is John Candy and Eugene Levy
in a "3D" movie called Dr. Tongue's House of Stewardesses,
where every now and then, they kind of lean towards the
camera. Funny, funny stuff! My parents were Bob & Doug
Mackenzie fans, so I own Strange Brew and the album on CD.
The whole album is hilarious, but my favorite is probably
the part where they talk about metric beers. ^_^

As for SNL, I loved the '80s cast, but my favorite has to
be the original cast. Rosanne Rosannadanna, Lisa Lubner,
Point-Counterpoint ("Jane, you ignorant slut!") are total
classics. Although the Church Lady and Stuart Smalley are
right up there, too....




From saintbacchus at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 25 04:09:18 2002
From: saintbacchus at yahoo.com (saintbacchus)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 04:09:18 -0000
Subject: Music
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20020224070036.00a2e2c0@mail.mcn.org>
Message-ID: <a5cdde+48n7@eGroups.com>

--- Catherine Keegan <keegan at m...> wrote:

<<
What do you put onto the stereo (oi! I'm showing my
age. CD player.) when you sit down for a nice long
afternoon or evening of reading?
>>

No, CD players are dated, too! You mean, "What do
you put in Winamp?" ^_~

I have a lot of Japanese pop music in my playlist;
Ami Suzuki, Utada Hikaru, X-Japan and Nanase Aikawa,
mostly. Some Korean, too. That's mixed in with lots
of classic rock and '80s pop. Depeche Mode and De La
Soul coexist peacefully with Gackt and Queen on my
playlist. Oh, and of course, Weird Al and Dr. Demento
for comic relief! Since you all have put me in a
Canadian kind of mood, I've also got a couple songs
from the South Park movie soundtrack. ^_^

When I'm in the mood for relaxing music, I put video
game music on. I've got every orchestrated Final
Fantasy album and several others. Castlevania:
Symphony of the Night and Chrono Cross are two of my
non-FF favorites.




From ganvira at earthlink.net  Mon Feb 25 04:55:30 2002
From: ganvira at earthlink.net (Terry van Ettinger)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 20:55:30 -0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Music
References: <a5cdde+48n7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <009e01c1bdb8$a67e1f00$0797cd18@charterpipeline.com>

Hey!!  I still use CD players too, and I'm only 24!  CD players aren't
dated!!!!!!!

Terry
----- Original Message -----
From: "saintbacchus" <saintbacchus at yahoo.com>
To: <HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2002 8:09 PM
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Music


> --- Catherine Keegan <keegan at m...> wrote:
>
> <<
> What do you put onto the stereo (oi! I'm showing my
> age. CD player.) when you sit down for a nice long
> afternoon or evening of reading?
> >>
>
> No, CD players are dated, too! You mean, "What do
> you put in Winamp?" ^_~
>
> I have a lot of Japanese pop music in my playlist;
> Ami Suzuki, Utada Hikaru, X-Japan and Nanase Aikawa,
> mostly. Some Korean, too. That's mixed in with lots
> of classic rock and '80s pop. Depeche Mode and De La
> Soul coexist peacefully with Gackt and Queen on my
> playlist. Oh, and of course, Weird Al and Dr. Demento
> for comic relief! Since you all have put me in a
> Canadian kind of mood, I've also got a couple songs
> from the South Park movie soundtrack. ^_^
>
> When I'm in the mood for relaxing music, I put video
> game music on. I've got every orchestrated Final
> Fantasy album and several others. Castlevania:
> Symphony of the Night and Chrono Cross are two of my
> non-FF favorites.
>
>
>
> ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________
>
> Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the group's Admin Files!
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/
>
> Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material
from posts to which you're replying!
>
> Is your message...
> An announcement of merchandise, news etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements.
> Movie-related? Send it to HPFGU-Movie.
> Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups.
> None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter.
> Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods --
MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com
>
> Unsubscribing? Email HPFGU-OTChatter-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
> ____________________________________________________________
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>




From tabouli at unite.com.au  Mon Feb 25 06:31:25 2002
From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 17:31:25 +1100
Subject: Successful session, accented English
Message-ID: <008901c1bdc6$41a08e20$df30c2cb@price>

Phew, (says a somewhat hoarse Tabouli).  Just got back from delivering my biannual three hour session on Australian culture to new international students.  Tricky, because you're working with a highly educated, critical group of about 40 which includes both students who are from non-Western, non-Anglophone countries and nervous about using English, and outspoken native English speakers from the US, Canada and UK (who grow to resent the fact that most international student orientation sessions in Australia pitch almost exclusively at Asian students).  But all went well.

Athene (quoting me):
> Though I confess that I have on occasion committed the
> nefarious crime of mistaking a Canadian accent for a US accent.
> Canadian mouths have thinned.
>
>>Ah, yes. I'd guess it was due to our sensitivity at occasionally 
>>being regarded as the 51st state, when we are in fact an independent 
>>country. We're usually quite determined to distinguish ourselves from the US.

Indeed.  Though if you Canadians are sensitive about being mistaken for Americans, you should have seen how the French took being assumed to be Americans in China!!  (Tabouli stifles unseemly giggling).  My, my, they were *not* amused.  The continental Europeans in general got very stroppy indeed about being taken for Americans.  I was always assumed to be American as well, of course, but as someone from an English-speaking country I was prepared to be tolerant and correct them with minimal tooth-grinding.

[Of course, I'm probably not a good example, as I've had people guessing my nationality around the world for decades.  I used to keep a list of all the countries people had guessed me to be from, which include Mexico, Greece, Iran and Russia, among many many others (my list got up to about 62 countries)]

Accents are fascinating things.  I've met many an American (and Canadian, for that matter) visiting Australia who comments wryly that every single person they've met has made the brilliant observation "You're from America, aren't you?" seconds after they open their mouths, after years of not thinking of themselves as having an accent.  Then you have the other way around... my father, whose Australian accent is very mild indeed by Australian standards, often goes to California and reports regular trouble in making himself understood, as people get so little exposure to Australian accents in the States.

When I was in South Africa, I went to a party held in what was a "coloured" area under Apartheid and discovered that while the "whites" had had no trouble understanding me, the people at this party, presumably poorer and less well-travelled, were having difficulties.  I said I thought my Australian accent wasn't particularly strong, and they laughed and told me to listen to myself!  (?)  I then demonstrated a true broad Australian accent (which they were unconvinced was really English), and then I jokily adopted an English accent.  Ah!  they said, that's *much* better, can you speak like that from now on?

By contrast, there was an Englishman I met in China with whom I spoke quite cheerily for around half an hour before he asked me "what part of England I was from".  I told him I wasn't from England, and invited him to guess... he worked his way around the Mediterranean and then gave up.  I put on my best nasal Aussie drawl and intoned "Aww, should I put on me raaw colonial accent for ya then, mate?" and his face shrivelled with disdain.  "Ohhhh," he said, as if he'd just trodden in something nasty, "you're *Australian," and more or less turned his back and hurried away before I could pollute him!   And tried to avoid me thereafter!  Grrrr.  I made it as hard for him to avoid me as possible.  I would corner him in corridors and deliberately enforce my uncouth Australian presence on him.  I'll give *you* Australian, *mate*, I muttered darkly to myself...

Tabouli (donning her Akubra hung with corks and chucking another shrimp on the barbie...)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From dracos_boyfriend at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Feb 25 09:20:30 2002
From: dracos_boyfriend at yahoo.co.uk (dracos_boyfriend)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 09:20:30 -0000
Subject: More accents (was successful session, accented English)
In-Reply-To: <008901c1bdc6$41a08e20$df30c2cb@price>
Message-ID: <a5cvku+cpcu@eGroups.com>

::feels guilty at Tab's wonderful posts::

I can never come up with anything half as good.  Got some accent-y 
stories to share however.  I was taken for an American once in 
Germany when I was 12, but I can't remember the circumstances in 
which it occurred.  What I do remember is my exchange partner's 
father driving us into central Stuttgart on the Autobahn - it was 
pouring with rain, and he kept pointing at the sky, grinning at me 
and saying 'London wetter, ja?'

At a bookstore in an outlet mall in Massachusetts someone asked me if 
I was Irish ... and I sound about as un-Irish as you can get.  In the 
same mall, the lovely woman who was serving my parents (who were, as 
Brits tend to do when they get unleashed on malls in the US, buying 
armloads of clothes to take home with us), was talking to them about 
how much she adored British exercise videos.  Apparently our accents 
are authoritative and good to work out to.  In Canada, I was again 
asked where I was from by some very old guy who was sitting near us 
on the bus to Niagara, and on telling him, he 
exclaimed 'England???!!!' as if he had never even encountered the 
word before.

I can't think of anything else
Alex




From john at walton.vu  Mon Feb 25 13:53:30 2002
From: john at walton.vu (John Walton)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 13:53:30 +0000
Subject: Accented English
In-Reply-To: <008901c1bdc6$41a08e20$df30c2cb@price>
Message-ID: <B89FF25A.B20C%john@walton.vu>

Tabouli wrote:

> When I was in South Africa, I went to a party held in what was a "coloured"
> area under Apartheid and discovered that while the "whites" had had no trouble
> understanding me, the people at this party, presumably poorer and less
> well-travelled, were having difficulties.  I said I thought my Australian
> accent wasn't particularly strong, and they laughed and told me to listen to
> myself!  (?)  I then demonstrated a true broad Australian accent (which they
> were unconvinced was really English), and then I jokily adopted an English
> accent.  Ah!  they said, that's *much* better, can you speak like that from
> now on?

Oh, I love this thread.

I was at dinner at my friend Hansie's house (no prize for guessing that he's
a white South African) the other night, and we were discussing this very
thing. He's a mature student (mid 30s) and remembers, during his late teens
and early 20s, having to pass himself off as Australian while travelling
lest he be harangued by anti-apartheid activists. The fact that he himself
is a strong believer in racial equality never entered into it.

My personal favorite, however, is when I'm at home in NY. Now, despite my
American nationality and the fact that I consider myself a New Yorker, I
have a very strong English public school accent which would probably be
termed "BBC English". I have lost track how often I have had the following
conversation with various people, many of them at least partially educated:

Me (buying something/talking about something): Blah blah.

Person: Oh, I *love* that accent!

Me: Thank you.

Person: Are you from Ireland?

Me: No, I'm a New Yorker but my accent is from England.

Person: England...is that in Ireland?

Me: No, England is part of Britain.

Person: Is *that* in Ireland?

Me: No, but it's nearby. Kinda like New York and Pennsylvania.

Person: Oh. So they're like different states?

Me: Yep, except actually different countries. Like America and Canada, but
smaller.

Person: Wow, I had no idea.

Heh. Of course, I experience the same thing in Europe: "Is Oregon near NY? I
have an internet friend in Oregon!"

--John

____________________________________________

-"You are drunk, Sir Winston, you are disgustingly drunk."
-"Yes, Mrs Braddock, I am drunk.?But you, Mrs Braddock, are ugly.
Tomorrow morning I, Winston Churchill, will be sober."

John Walton || john at walton.vu
____________________________________________




From ftah3 at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 25 14:11:57 2002
From: ftah3 at yahoo.com (ftah3)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 14:11:57 -0000
Subject: Accented English and geography
In-Reply-To: <B89FF25A.B20C%john@walton.vu>
Message-ID: <a5dgnd+hfr1@eGroups.com>

John Walton wrote:
> Me (buying something/talking about something): Blah blah.
> 
> Person: Oh, I *love* that accent!
> 
> Me: Thank you.
> 
> Person: Are you from Ireland?
> 
> Me: No, I'm a New Yorker but my accent is from England.
> 
> Person: England...is that in Ireland?
> 
> Me: No, England is part of Britain.
> 
> Person: Is *that* in Ireland?
> 
> Me: No, but it's nearby. Kinda like New York and Pennsylvania.
> 
> Person: Oh. So they're like different states?
> 
> Me: Yep, except actually different countries. Like America and 
Canada, but
> smaller.
> Person: Wow, I had no idea.

*falling over* Ohhhhh no.  That's so horrible and sad!  And very very 
very funny (says the coffee I nearly spewed out my nose).

> Heh. Of course, I experience the same thing in Europe: "Is Oregon 
near NY? I
> have an internet friend in Oregon!"

When I tell people (American, Scottish, & German, so far) that I'm 
originally from Iowa (midwestern USA), I'm often subsequently 
introduced to their friends as so: "This is Dana, she's from [pick 
one: Ohio/Idaho/...um, where did you say?]."  Not half as bad as what 
you describe, but entertaining.  I think that Iowa is the US's best 
kept secret, really....

Mahoney
Iowa-luver




From macloudt at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Feb 25 15:55:47 2002
From: macloudt at yahoo.co.uk (macloudt)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 15:55:47 -0000
Subject: Almost TOO off-topic...
In-Reply-To: <id.24022002171301.00000@FPE>
Message-ID: <a5dmq3+og1k@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "voicelady" <voicelady at m...> wrote:
> John wrote:  "...[snip of mods & elves e-mail addy and then:] 
> ... or magicalmods at y... (Mods only)..."
> 
> Okay, does my mind work in very strange ways, or did anyone else 
wonder for a split second why the mods chose as their e-mail 
address "magic almonds"?
> 
> Told you it was going to be off-topic...

Oh, dear, your mind works like mine, poor thing.  Quite often I'll 
glance sideways at something and read it completely wrong.  A corker 
of mine was when I was looking for a Christmas card for DH, and out 
of the corner of my eye I saw a card that said, "To my first husband 
for christmas".  I thought to myself, what a stupid card, until I 
read it properly and saw it said "To my husband for our first 
Christmas".  Sad, or what?

Even worse, subject lines that include the name of the actor who 
played Ron, Rupert, make me start humming the Pina Colada Song.

I need help.

Mary Ann
(who will refrain from posting further confessions for fear of being 
deemed too far gone for this list)




From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Mon Feb 25 16:05:16 2002
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naamagatus)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 16:05:16 -0000
Subject: Shoes and Sheets
Message-ID: <a5dnbs+k93j@eGroups.com>

Hi,

I had a discussion with a friend of mine a few days ago on an 
interesting aspect of American culture (as seen through TV, of 
course). She claimed that in a lot of TV series, especially teen 
series such as Beverly Hills ?????? (never can remember that zip 
code), the characters often lie or sit on beds, without taking off 
their shoes (!). Besides finding this repugnant, she was immensely 
intrigued as to whether this reflects real life or whether it's just 
more convenient direction wise. 
I immediately thought of OT-Chatter. So many here are American and 
it's such a random collection (geographically I mean) of people that 
it has the validity of scientific sampling <g>. Also so many here 
seem to relish the trivial, esoteric and unimportant, that I can 
reasonably expect to elicit some response.

So, do *you* lie on your bed with your shoes on? Do members of your 
family? Friends and neighbours? Is it a common custom? Is it common 
in teen culture maybe? Is it prevalent on TV or is my friend nuts?

anthropologically yours,

Naama :-)






From john at walton.vu  Mon Feb 25 16:43:24 2002
From: john at walton.vu (John Walton)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 16:43:24 +0000
Subject: ADMIN: The HPFGU Humongous Bigfile
Message-ID: <B8A01A2C.B247%john@walton.vu>

Dear HPFGUers,

In an effort to make the group more navigable and to give you all the
information you'd ever need about HPFGU in one handy document, the Magical
Moderators, List Elves and Poltergeists present (*lights dim, spotlights
play across screen, drum rolls*):

The HPforGrownups Humongous Bigfile
http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin

"And there'll be little flags on the hoods, with HB on them -"
"- for Humongous Bighead," said Fred.
Everyone except Percy and Mrs. Weasley snorted into their pudding.
????????--Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban

Combining the group's Admin Files, Welcome Message, Netiquette File, Common
Abbreviations & Shorthand File, Resources, Links and Website
recommendations, the Humongous Bigfile contains anything and everything
you'll ever want to know about HPFGU or the HP fandom for grownups, and is a
must-read for all members.

Please take a look over it, and feel free to email the Mods if you have any
additions, suggestions or if you notice anything out of the ordinary :D

Magically yours,

--John
__________________________________
John, Mod With Rock #47
For the HPforGrownups Moderator Team
HPforGrownups-Owner at yahoogroups.com

Please read our Humongous Bigfile!
http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin




From ewe2 at can.org.au  Mon Feb 25 17:10:02 2002
From: ewe2 at can.org.au (Sean Dwyer)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 04:10:02 +1100
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Accented English
In-Reply-To: <B89FF25A.B20C%john@walton.vu>
References: <008901c1bdc6$41a08e20$df30c2cb@price> <B89FF25A.B20C%john@walton.vu>
Message-ID: <20020225171002.GA886@can.org.au>

On Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 01:53:30PM +0000, John Walton wrote:

[snip classic accent/geographical confusion]

Apart from the unnerving experience of attempting to converse with fascinated
Americans ("That word is *wonderful*, what does it mean again?"), my biggest
run-in with accents was regional.

As Tabouli mentioned, even here we differentiate on regional accents, and when
I was small we moved from Melbourne to Far North Queensland (the caps are
intentional: the rest of us have taken to referring to it as the Deep North),
where my clean Melbourne accent was taken by all to be "sissy" and several
unprintable descriptions, which basically boil down to an opinion that I knew
too much for my own good, and a healthy beating would soon cure my malady. I
very quickly learnt to be silent.

One of the oddities of Northern Australian English (to coin a dialect) is the
common rising inflection, or ending every sentence as if asking a question,
which at first got me into trouble too:

NA (northern australian): This is a really good book.
Me: I don't know, I haven't read it.
NA: What? You being smart again?

Sigh. It's hard to keep your intelligence a secret from the suspicious when
your accent and dialect give it away. I'm sure this kind of thing is very
nearly universal; it makes world peace a bit of a challenge.

Sean
-- 
Sean Dwyer <ewe2 at can.org.au>
Web: http://www.geocities.com/ewe2_au/



From ganvira at earthlink.net  Mon Feb 25 17:05:30 2002
From: ganvira at earthlink.net (Terry van Ettinger)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 09:05:30 -0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Shoes and Sheets
References: <a5dnbs+k93j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00d701c1be1e$a17ffb20$0797cd18@charterpipeline.com>

I generally don't lie on the bed with my shoes on, but it's not because I
don't approve of it or anything; it's just awkward for me.  Now I will
sometimes sit down on a bed without removing my shoes, if I'm getting right
back up again.  But as far as others leaving their shoes on while lying on
the bed, hey, if it floats their boat, more power to 'em.  '-)

Terry
----- Original Message -----
From: "naamagatus" <naama_gat at hotmail.com>
To: <HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 25, 2002 8:05 AM
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Shoes and Sheets


> Hi,
>
> I had a discussion with a friend of mine a few days ago on an
> interesting aspect of American culture (as seen through TV, of
> course). She claimed that in a lot of TV series, especially teen
> series such as Beverly Hills ?????? (never can remember that zip
> code), the characters often lie or sit on beds, without taking off
> their shoes (!). Besides finding this repugnant, she was immensely
> intrigued as to whether this reflects real life or whether it's just
> more convenient direction wise.
> I immediately thought of OT-Chatter. So many here are American and
> it's such a random collection (geographically I mean) of people that
> it has the validity of scientific sampling <g>. Also so many here
> seem to relish the trivial, esoteric and unimportant, that I can
> reasonably expect to elicit some response.
>
> So, do *you* lie on your bed with your shoes on? Do members of your
> family? Friends and neighbours? Is it a common custom? Is it common
> in teen culture maybe? Is it prevalent on TV or is my friend nuts?
>
> anthropologically yours,
>
> Naama :-)
>
>
>
>
>
> ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________
>
> Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the group's Admin Files!
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/
>
> Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material
from posts to which you're replying!
>
> Is your message...
> An announcement of merchandise, news etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements.
> Movie-related? Send it to HPFGU-Movie.
> Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups.
> None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter.
> Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods --
MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com
>
> Unsubscribing? Email HPFGU-OTChatter-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
> ____________________________________________________________
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>




From Joanne0012 at aol.com  Mon Feb 25 17:14:31 2002
From: Joanne0012 at aol.com (joanne0012)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 17:14:31 -0000
Subject: Shoes and Sheets
In-Reply-To: <a5dnbs+k93j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a5drdn+7tq5@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "naamagatus" <naama_gat at h...> wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I had a discussion with a friend of mine a few days ago on an 
> interesting aspect of American culture (as seen through TV, of 
> course). She claimed that in a lot of TV series, especially teen 
> series such as Beverly Hills ?????? (never can remember that zip 
> code),

90210

> So, do *you* lie on your bed with your shoes on? Do members of your 
> family? Friends and neighbours? Is it a common custom? Is it common 
> in teen culture maybe? Is it prevalent on TV or is my friend nuts?

Can't say that I've noticed it on TV, either way.  I grew up near Boston in ZIP 
code 02190 (an "anagram" of the TV site ZIP) and we certainly never put out 
shoes on the bed. I don't know whether they do things differently in California, or 
whether TV kids keep their shoes on because they're on a set rather than in a 
real house or because it would break the flow of the story for them to stop to 
take off the shoes.

My own teens have been trained to take off their shoes as soon as they enter 
the house!  When they were younger, I impressed them with basic hygiene 
lessons in dramatic ways: Don't drink the bath water, your dirty feet have been 
in there.  Wash your hands when you come home from the mall, everything you 
touched there has already been touched by somebody that picks their nose.  And 
take your shoes off when you come in the house, you just walked up a sidewalk 
that some dog once pooped on, do you want that on the livingroom rug that 
you're going to sit on later?  I'm certainly not germ-phobic, but I do believe in 
basic precautions1






From ganvira at earthlink.net  Mon Feb 25 17:10:35 2002
From: ganvira at earthlink.net (Terry van Ettinger)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 09:10:35 -0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Almost TOO off-topic...
References: <a5dmq3+og1k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00e401c1be1f$5a33eaa0$0797cd18@charterpipeline.com>

I think that one just kind of passed me by since my screen reader pronounces
it more like magi *call*mods, but I can see where you might draw that
conclusion.  I've done that when reading something in real large print, due
to sometimes second-guessing a word without reading the whole thing and thus
misreading it.

Terry
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "voicelady" <voicelady at m...> wrote:
> > Okay, does my mind work in very strange ways, or did anyone else
> wonder for a split second why the mods chose as their e-mail
> address "magic almonds"?





From ewe2 at can.org.au  Mon Feb 25 17:30:01 2002
From: ewe2 at can.org.au (Sean Dwyer)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 04:30:01 +1100
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Music
In-Reply-To: <a5cdde+48n7@eGroups.com>
References: <4.2.0.58.20020224070036.00a2e2c0@mail.mcn.org> <a5cdde+48n7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20020225173001.GB886@can.org.au>

On Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 04:09:18AM -0000, saintbacchus wrote:
> --- Catherine Keegan <keegan at m...> wrote:
> 
> I have a lot of Japanese pop music in my playlist;
> Ami Suzuki, Utada Hikaru, X-Japan and Nanase Aikawa,
> mostly. Some Korean, too. That's mixed in with lots
> of classic rock and '80s pop. Depeche Mode and De La
> Soul coexist peacefully with Gackt and Queen on my
> playlist. Oh, and of course, Weird Al and Dr. Demento
> for comic relief! Since you all have put me in a
> Canadian kind of mood, I've also got a couple songs
> from the South Park movie soundtrack. ^_^
> 
> When I'm in the mood for relaxing music, I put video
> game music on. I've got every orchestrated Final
> Fantasy album and several others. Castlevania:
> Symphony of the Night and Chrono Cross are two of my
> non-FF favorites.

Finally a kindred spirit! I'm obviously not the only one to be severely
addicted to any music from Square games (puts on the soundtrack of Secret of
Mana _again_).

I'm also a seriously batty collector of novelty songs. I defy anyone to listen
to Fish Heads and not feel a warm glow for humanity.

When I'm working (usually programming or attempting to write the Great
Australian Webpage), there's a charming Australian band called Regurgitator to
keep me speed-typing, or anything by the Finn brothers.

Sean (singing along to the mushroom people theme)

-- 
Sean Dwyer <ewe2 at can.org.au>
Web: http://www.geocities.com/ewe2_au/



From blpurdom at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 25 17:38:59 2002
From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 17:38:59 -0000
Subject: Favorite Saturday Night Live Skits
In-Reply-To: <a5ccif+kt9r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a5dsrj+8sgt@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "saintbacchus" <saintbacchus at y...> 
wrote:
> --- "macloudt" <macloudt at y...> wrote:
> Now who remembers watching SCTV? Any takers? And take
> off, eh?

> I was, unfortunately, too young to have watched SCTV, but
> I saw one episode on Nick at Nite's tenth anniversary
> special, and I'd love to see more. The thing that sticks
> with me about that episode is John Candy and Eugene Levy
> in a "3D" movie called Dr. Tongue's House of Stewardesses,
> where every now and then, they kind of lean towards the
> camera. Funny, funny stuff!  

This is also where Martin Short originated some characters he later 
brought over to SNL, such as the chain-smoking lawyer whose name 
escapes me (he was defending the tobacco companies and kept 
saying, "I know that!  I know that!  Why don't you think I know 
that?") as well as Ed Grimley, of the "big boy" coif (goodness only 
knows how much mousse is necessary for this hairdo--and how freaked-
out Pat Sajak may still be by this character).  This is also where I 
first saw his incredible impersonation of Katharine Hepburn.  I 
always got a stitch in my side laughing at Martin Short!

> As for SNL, I loved the '80s cast, but my favorite has to
> be the original cast. Rosanne Rosannadanna, Lisa Lubner,
> Point-Counterpoint ("Jane, you ignorant slut!") are total
> classics. Although the Church Lady and Stuart Smalley are
> right up there, too....

Ah, but I don't recall anyone mentioning one of the all-time great 
ideas: Coffee Talk (Cawfee Tawk).  Who can forget when Barbra 
Streisand "wandered" onto the set, sending Mike Myers, Madonna and 
Rosanne into hysterics?  (They were all so "verklempt" the entire 
show stopped for a few minutes.)

I loved the tagline, "Tawk amongst yourselves," as in, "Tawk amongst 
yourselves.  I'll give you a topic:  The Holy Roman Empire was 
neither holy, nor Roman, or an empire.  Discuss."

--Barb
(holding a stitch in her side...)





From blpurdom at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 25 17:51:09 2002
From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 17:51:09 -0000
Subject: Accented English
In-Reply-To: <B89FF25A.B20C%john@walton.vu>
Message-ID: <a5dtid+2vju@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., John Walton <john at w...> wrote:
> Person: Are you from Ireland?
> 
> Me: No, I'm a New Yorker but my accent is from England.
> 
> Person: England...is that in Ireland?
> 
> Me: No, England is part of Britain.
> 
> Person: Is *that* in Ireland?
> 
> Me: No, but it's nearby. Kinda like New York and Pennsylvania.
> 
> Person: Oh. So they're like different states?
> 
> Me: Yep, except actually different countries. Like America and 
> Canada, but smaller.
> 
> Person: Wow, I had no idea.
> 
> Heh. Of course, I experience the same thing in Europe: "Is Oregon 
> near NY? I have an internet friend in Oregon!"

At least they knew that NY and Oregon are both in the US.  There are 
people in the US who do not know that New Mexico is a US state.  
Evidently there are some who think it is another country which broke 
away from Mexico.  I have heard people wonder what language is 
spoken in New Mexico.  Honestly.  

On a bright note, I was pleased that when my son and several other 
kids in his Sunday school were presented with a map of the world 
during the children's sermon yesterday and asked to find Mozambique, 
they immediately started scouring Africa, quickly finding it across 
the channel from Madagascar.  I was recently having a conversation 
with an adult who was confusing this country with Martinique, 
insisting he was going down to the Caribbean for a vacation in 
Mozambique...

--Barb





From Joanne0012 at aol.com  Mon Feb 25 18:04:00 2002
From: Joanne0012 at aol.com (joanne0012)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 18:04:00 -0000
Subject: Accented English
In-Reply-To: <a5dtid+2vju@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a5duag+bs91@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "blpurdom" <blpurdom at y...> wrote:
> At least they knew that NY and Oregon are both in the US.  There are 
> people in the US who do not know that New Mexico is a US state.  
> Evidently there are some who think it is another country which broke 
> away from Mexico.  

Well, in a way they're partly right, since it used to be part of Mexico, LOL!  I think 
those are the same people who wonder if they need a passport to go to Hawaii.




From Zorb17 at aol.com  Mon Feb 25 19:01:13 2002
From: Zorb17 at aol.com (Zorb17 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 14:01:13 EST
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Shoes and Sheets
Message-ID: <187.3ea008c.29abe3fa@aol.com>

In a message dated Mon, 25 Feb 2002 11:06:54 AM Eastern Standard Time, "naamagatus" <naama_gat at hotmail.com> writes:
> So, do *you* lie on your bed with your shoes on? Do members of your 
> family? Friends and neighbours? Is it a common custom? Is it common 
> in teen culture maybe? Is it prevalent on TV or is my friend nuts?
> 
> anthropologically yours,
> 
> Naama :-)

As a life-long California girl just finishing her teens, I can honestly say that there's no way to generalize this one.  I've probably been in an equal number of houses where people remove their shoes upon entering and where they don't (although that changes to *always* removing them in Asian and Middle Eastern families' houses).

My family never cared one way or another, except, of course, in the case of muddy or grass-covered shoes and cleats.  As long as we weren't tracking dirt, Mom didn't mind.

If I'm going to be sitting on my bed for awhile or home all day, I usually take off my shoes just for comfort.  It's not a primary concern of mine, though.


Zorb



From alyeskakc at netzero.net  Mon Feb 25 19:50:44 2002
From: alyeskakc at netzero.net (alyeskakc)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 19:50:44 -0000
Subject: Accented English
In-Reply-To: <a5duag+bs91@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a5e4ik+b9dq@eGroups.com>

> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "blpurdom" <blpurdom at y...> wrote:
> > At least they knew that NY and Oregon are both in the US.  There 
are people in the US who do not know that New Mexico is a US state.  
> > Evidently there are some who think it is another country which 
broke away from Mexico.  



As a native New Mexican I get soooo tired of this. Sometimes when 
visting other states being told you speak really good english, you 
don't even have a spanish accent. I never even learned spanish until 
I was in high school and I don't speak it that well even now. 

Oh and I also love this one "did you have to get a visa?" No but I 
have a mastercard. OR Do you have cars there and paved roads?  
Running water?  Do you you still have to ride horses? 

I'd like to know what they teach these people in school. Granted New 
Mexico doesn't have the best educational system in the country but we 
at least know all the states.



>--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "joanne0012" <Joanne0012 at a...> wrote:
 
> Well, in a way they're partly right, since it used to be part of 
Mexico, LOL!  I think 
> those are the same people who wonder if they need a passport to go 
to Hawaii.


And just a little history note, New Mexico was not the only state to 
belong to Mexico in the early to mid 1800's. 

The Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, signed on February 2, 1848, ended 
the war with Mexico. It confirmed U.S. claims to Texas and set its 
boundary at the Rio Grande.  Mexico also agreed to cede to the United 
States, California and New Mexico. This included what is now 
California, Arizona, Nevada and Utah as well as parts of New Mexico, 
Colorado and Wyoming. The purchase price was $15 million and 
assumption by the United States of claims against Mexico by U. S. 
citizens. The U. S. Senate ratified it on March 10, 1848 and the 
Mexican Congress on May 25. 

The New Mexico Territory 1850 - New Mexico (which included present-
day Arizona, southern Colorado, southern Utah and southern Nevada) is 
designated a territory, but denied statehood. In 1863 the territory 
is split in half creating the Arizona territory. By 1912 what is 
present day New Mexico becomes the 47th state in the Union.


Cheers,
Kristin

:who will now step off her New Mexico is a state soapbox:




From alyeskakc at netzero.net  Mon Feb 25 19:50:10 2002
From: alyeskakc at netzero.net (alyeskakc)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 19:50:10 -0000
Subject: Accented English
In-Reply-To: <a5duag+bs91@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a5e4hj+e67o@eGroups.com>

> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "blpurdom" <blpurdom at y...> wrote:
> > At least they knew that NY and Oregon are both in the US.  There 
are people in the US who do not know that New Mexico is a US state.  
> > Evidently there are some who think it is another country which 
broke away from Mexico.  



As a native New Mexican I get soooo tired of this. Sometimes when 
visting other states being told you speak really good english, you 
don't even have a spanish accent. I never even learned spanish until 
I was in high school and I don't speak it that well even now. 

Oh and I also love this one "did you have to get a visa?" No but I 
have a mastercard. OR Do you have cars there and paved roads?  
Running water?  Do you you still have to ride horses? 

I'd like to know what they teach these people in school. Granted New 
Mexico doesn't have the best educational system in the country but we 
at least know all the states.



>--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "joanne0012" <Joanne0012 at a...> wrote:
 
> Well, in a way they're partly right, since it used to be part of 
Mexico, LOL!  I think 
> those are the same people who wonder if they need a passport to go 
to Hawaii.


And just a little history note, New Mexico was not the only state to 
belong to Mexico in the early to mid 1800's. 

The Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, signed on February 2, 1848, ended 
the war with Mexico. It confirmed U.S. claims to Texas and set its 
boundary at the Rio Grande.  Mexico also agreed to cede to the United 
States, California and New Mexico. This included what is now 
California, Arizona, Nevada and Utah as well as parts of New Mexico, 
Colorado and Wyoming. The purchase price was $15 million and 
assumption by the United States of claims against Mexico by U. S. 
citizens. The U. S. Senate ratified it on March 10, 1848 and the 
Mexican Congress on May 25. 

The New Mexico Territory 1850 - New Mexico (which included present-
day Arizona, southern Colorado, southern Utah and southern Nevada) is 
designated a territory, but denied statehood. In 1863 the territory 
is split in half creating the Arizona territory. By 1912 what is 
present day New Mexico becomes the 47th state in the Union.


Cheers,
Kristin

:who will now step off her New Mexico is a state soapbox:




From slytherin_belle at hotmail.com  Mon Feb 25 20:04:36 2002
From: slytherin_belle at hotmail.com (Evil Flame)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 14:04:36 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Accented English
References: <a5e4ik+b9dq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <DAV60XxKKATqKenhWAM00025abe@hotmail.com>

> As a native New Mexican I get soooo tired of this. Sometimes when
> visting other states being told you speak really good english, you
> don't even have a spanish accent. I never even learned spanish until
> I was in high school and I don't speak it that well even now.
>
> Oh and I also love this one "did you have to get a visa?" No but I
> have a mastercard. OR Do you have cars there and paved roads?
> Running water?  Do you you still have to ride horses?
>
> I'd like to know what they teach these people in school. Granted New
> Mexico doesn't have the best educational system in the country but we
> at least know all the states.
>

*chuckles*  On a related note, being from Texas, I get the horse comment a
lot. (I've probably been on a horse a hand full of times in my life.)  And
yeah, we get comments about the accent thing all the time.  I have trouble
on the phone when talking to people from other parts of the country.  They
automatically knock about 60 IQ points off my intelligence and ask me to
repeat things and spell them because of my accent.  But I guess I should
consider myself lucky.  They at least know Texas is an American state.

-Evil Flame



From ganvira at earthlink.net  Mon Feb 25 19:53:40 2002
From: ganvira at earthlink.net (Terry van Ettinger)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 11:53:40 -0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Accented English
References: <a5e4ik+b9dq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <017801c1be36$1f7ece40$0797cd18@charterpipeline.com>

I haven't weighed in much on this thread...but really, people who don't know
New Mexico as a state?  (hope this isn't too political; incendio me if it
is.)  Anyway, it seems strange that people wouldn't know the US states; I
was quizzed on them several times in 4th grade.  That's about 9-10 years
old.  Do some people forget that, or do they not get that part of education?

Terry
----- Original Message -----
From: "alyeskakc" <alyeskakc at netzero.net>
To: <HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 25, 2002 11:50 AM
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Accented English


> > --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "blpurdom" <blpurdom at y...> wrote:
> > > At least they knew that NY and Oregon are both in the US.  There
> are people in the US who do not know that New Mexico is a US state.
> > > Evidently there are some who think it is another country which
> broke away from Mexico.
>
>
>
> As a native New Mexican I get soooo tired of this. Sometimes when
> visting other states being told you speak really good english, you
> don't even have a spanish accent. I never even learned spanish until
> I was in high school and I don't speak it that well even now.
>
> Oh and I also love this one "did you have to get a visa?" No but I
> have a mastercard. OR Do you have cars there and paved roads?
> Running water?  Do you you still have to ride horses?
>
> I'd like to know what they teach these people in school. Granted New
> Mexico doesn't have the best educational system in the country but we
> at least know all the states.
>
>
>
> >--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "joanne0012" <Joanne0012 at a...> wrote:
>
> > Well, in a way they're partly right, since it used to be part of
> Mexico, LOL!  I think
> > those are the same people who wonder if they need a passport to go
> to Hawaii.
>
>
> And just a little history note, New Mexico was not the only state to
> belong to Mexico in the early to mid 1800's.
>
> The Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, signed on February 2, 1848, ended
> the war with Mexico. It confirmed U.S. claims to Texas and set its
> boundary at the Rio Grande.  Mexico also agreed to cede to the United
> States, California and New Mexico. This included what is now
> California, Arizona, Nevada and Utah as well as parts of New Mexico,
> Colorado and Wyoming. The purchase price was $15 million and
> assumption by the United States of claims against Mexico by U. S.
> citizens. The U. S. Senate ratified it on March 10, 1848 and the
> Mexican Congress on May 25.
>
> The New Mexico Territory 1850 - New Mexico (which included present-
> day Arizona, southern Colorado, southern Utah and southern Nevada) is
> designated a territory, but denied statehood. In 1863 the territory
> is split in half creating the Arizona territory. By 1912 what is
> present day New Mexico becomes the 47th state in the Union.
>
>
> Cheers,
> Kristin
>
> :who will now step off her New Mexico is a state soapbox:
>
>
>
> ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________
>
> Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the group's Admin Files!
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/
>
> Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material
from posts to which you're replying!
>
> Is your message...
> An announcement of merchandise, news etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements.
> Movie-related? Send it to HPFGU-Movie.
> Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups.
> None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter.
> Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods --
MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com
>
> Unsubscribing? Email HPFGU-OTChatter-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
> ____________________________________________________________
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>




From bray.262 at osu.edu  Mon Feb 25 15:15:25 2002
From: bray.262 at osu.edu (Rachel Bray)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 15:15:25 EST5EDT
Subject: Accented English
Message-ID: <63F7115A3E@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>

What I hate is going home for a long weekend and people 
making fun of the way I speak. "Oh, there she goes, talkin' 
in her snobby voice."  Then when I return my friends here 
say "Wow....I can tell you've been home a bit too long, you 
hillbilly!"

Or, when I'm really tired I slip a bit and I get "Geez, 
Rachel.  You sound like you just got back from the farm, 
you redneck!"

When I was in England I was asked if I was from a New 
England state.  When I said Ohio they were shocked.  I am 
guessing they thought Ohio would sound more southern.  But 
Northern Ohioans used to ask me if I was from Virginia or 
Kentucky.  And now Southern Ohioans I meet are shocked that 
I grew up on the Ohio River.

I just can't win.

By the way, one of the most endearing things about my 
Aussie friends is how they always say my name before a 
question.  Even if I'm the only other person in the room so 
it would be obvious that they were speaking to me.

Rachel Bray
The Ohio State University
Fees, Deposits and Disbursements


Frodo: I wish the ring had never come to me....I wish 
none of this had happened.

Gandalf: So do all who live to see such times, but that 
is not for them to decide.  All we have to decide is 
what to do with the time that is given us.



From editor at texas.net  Mon Feb 25 20:32:12 2002
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 14:32:12 -0600
Subject: Fw: Consumer Product Messages
Message-ID: <00b301c1be3b$831f50a0$2a7c63d1@texas.net>

I have no idea where my friend got this, so I apologize if you've all seen
it already, but it provided a much-needed chuckle or two to me today, and so
I share.

--Amanda

----- Original Message -----
Subject: Consumer Product Messages


> In case you needed further proof that the human race is doomed through
> stupidity, here are some actual label instructions on consumer goods.
>
> On a Sears hairdryer:
> ....Do not use while sleeping.
> (Darn, and that's the only time I have to work on my hair.)
>
> On a bag of Fritos:
> ...You could be a winner! No purchase necessary. Details inside.
> (The shoplifter special?)
>
> On a bar of Dial soap:
> "Directions: Use like regular soap."
> (And that would be how???....)
>
> On some Swanson frozen dinners:
> "Serving suggestion: Defrost! ."
> (But, it's *just* a suggestion.)
>
> On Tesco's Tiramisu dessert (printed on bottom):
> "Do not turn upside down."
> (Well...duh - a bit late, huh!)
>
> On Marks & Spencer Bread Pudding:
> "Product will be hot after heating."
> (...And you thought????...)
>
> On packaging for a Rowenta iron:
> "Do not iron clothes on body."
> (But wouldn't this save me more time?)
>
> On Boot's Children Cough Medicine:
> "Do not drive a car or operate machinery after taking this medication."
> (We could do a lot to reduce the rate of construction accidents if we
> could just get those 5-year-olds with head-colds off those forklifts.)
>
> On Nytol Sleep Aid:
> "Warning: May cause drowsiness."
> (And...I'm taking this because???....)
>
> On most brands of Christmas lights:
> "For indoor or outdoor use only."
> (As opposed to...what?)
>
> On a Japanese food processor:
> "Not to be used for the other use."
> (I gotta admit, I'm curious...)
>
> On Sainsbury's peanuts:
> "Warning: contains nuts."
> (Talk about a news flash.)
>
> On an American Airlines packet of nuts:
> "Instructions: Open packet, eat nuts."
> (Step 3: maybe, uh...fly Delta?)
>
> On a child's superman costume:
> "Wearing of this garment does not enable you to fly."
> (I don't blame the company. I blame the parents for this one.)
>
> On a Swedish chainsaw:
> "Do not attempt to stop chain with your hands or genitals."
> (Oh my God...was there a lot of this happening somewhere?)
>
>




From pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no  Mon Feb 25 20:41:55 2002
From: pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no (pengolodh_sc)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 20:41:55 -0000
Subject: Accented English
In-Reply-To: <a5e4hj+e67o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a5e7ij+gl6r@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter, Kristin wrote, on the subject of New Mexico 
and general ignorance:

[snip]

> I'd like to know what they teach these people in school.
> Granted New Mexico doesn't have the best educational system
> in the country but we at least know all the states.
[snip]
> Cheers,
> Kristin

They teach them all they should know, or at least they try to, but if 
the students consider try outs for base-, foot-, basket-, 
softballteams or cheerleader-troops, or results of ballgames, or 
what's happening at the next Ricki Lake or Jerry Springer-show more 
important than the 47th state to join the union, the teachers' 
options get a bit limited.  Geography and history are also two 
subjects that are at high risk of falling into the "why do we have to 
do this stuff, anyway - we don't need it?"-category with many 
students.  I spent 10 months and nine days as an exchangestudent at a 
highschool in East-Central Kentucky in 1993-94 (doing junior-year), 
and one of the subjects compulsory for exchangestudents with the 
exchange-agency I was using, was US History, also compulsory for all 
local students.  My US History class had ca. 25 students, including 
me and a Japanese exchangestudent.  You can guess which two students 
came out on top of that class, a league or two ahead of most of the 
others, can't you?  The reason was not, IMHO, that the other students 
were less intelligent than normal - they just didn't really see the 
point in learning about it.  I had the same type of classmates back 
in Norway too.

Best regards
Christian Stub?




From editor at texas.net  Mon Feb 25 20:46:42 2002
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 14:46:42 -0600
Subject: Very Odd HP Dream
Message-ID: <00c701c1be3d$8934b5a0$2a7c63d1@texas.net>

Okay, you fanfic loons.

I don't read fanfic. But I do participate in chat and catch the references,
and they must be sinking in, as witness the one and only HP-dream I've ever
had, which happened last night....

In my dream, Book 5 had come out, and I was reading it. I was both delighted
to get more of Snape's backstory, and upset that it sounded like a cheap
novel....Snape had found out about a trap laid for Harry, to expose and
humiliate him, and there was nothing he could do to prevent it (although he
tried) and because of his past, when the inevitable happened, he was there
to support Harry. The trap? Harry and Draco had a thing going, and the Evil
Powers had arranged it so that Harry would be caught in flagrante delecto
and exposed (literally and figuratively), etc., with all the bad publicity
for him and the school and that sort of thing. [I don't think Draco knew
this was in the offing.] And Snape was sympathetic and felt for Harry
because the very same thing had happened to him, he'd had a thing going with
some male student (I don't remember which one, sorry, guys) and he'd been
publicly shamed and ridiculed. [There were lots more Significant Details in
the dream-text, like there always are, things with loads of meaning at the
time, that I cannot now recall, but this was the gist.]

So, am I on some psychic wavelength from someone? Has my subconscious
plugged into some slash frequency? Or have I just maxed out on weird Snape
theories? [Note complete absence of any vampiristic traits in dream-Snape.
So there.]

If this intrigues anyone and hasn't been done yet, you can have it. I'm just
mad that I woke up before I finished the book.

--Amanda




From Joanne0012 at aol.com  Mon Feb 25 21:34:34 2002
From: Joanne0012 at aol.com (joanne0012)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 21:34:34 -0000
Subject: Accented English
In-Reply-To: <a5e4ik+b9dq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a5eala+hi44@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "alyeskakc" <alyeskakc at n...> wrote:
 
> And just a little history note, New Mexico was not the only state to 
> belong to Mexico in the early to mid 1800's. 
> 
> The Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, signed on February 2, 1848, ended 
> the war with Mexico. It confirmed U.S. claims to Texas and set its 
> boundary at the Rio Grande.  Mexico also agreed to cede to the United 
> States, California and New Mexico. This included what is now 
> California, Arizona, Nevada and Utah as well as parts of New Mexico, 
> Colorado and Wyoming. 

An Hispanic friend of mine who grew up in the Denver area decided to do some 
genealogical research.  She was so surprised when she found out "My family 
didn't leave Mexico -- Mexico left us!"




From s_ings at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 25 21:47:34 2002
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 16:47:34 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Happy Birthday, Finwitch
In-Reply-To: <009e01c1bdb8$a67e1f00$0797cd18@charterpipeline.com>
Message-ID: <20020225214734.74272.qmail@web14610.mail.yahoo.com>

::tosses confetti around the room::

Finwitch is celebrating a birthday today. Birthday
owls can be sent to this list, or directly to
finwitch at yahoo.com

Hope the day is filled with magic! Happy Birthday!

Sheryll

=====
"We need to be united and strong. We'll have losses and scares, sure. And you'll be there for each other, helping each other through the bad times."
 blpurdom - Harry Potter and the Psychic Serpent, Chapter 26

______________________________________________________________________ 
Web-hosting solutions for home and business! http://website.yahoo.ca



From ameliagoldfeesh at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 25 21:57:35 2002
From: ameliagoldfeesh at yahoo.com (ameliagoldfeesh)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 21:57:35 -0000
Subject: Accented English and geography plus music
Message-ID: <a5ec0f+hij7@eGroups.com>

Mahoney wrote:
>When I tell people (American, Scottish, & German, so far) that I'm 
>originally from Iowa (midwestern USA), I'm often subsequently 
>introduced to their friends as so: "This is Dana, she's from [pick 
>one: Ohio/Idaho/...um, where did you say?]."  Not half as bad as
>what you describe, but entertaining.  I think that Iowa is the US's
>>>best kept secret, really....

My favorite Iowa reaction is: "Ah, Iowa, you grow potatos there." I 
always wonder if people from Idaho are asked about corn.  Better than 
hearing "Iowa, the Cornhusker State" though, which I heard one time- 
eww. (I had the misfortune of growing up in Iowa so southwestern it
was practically Nebraska, so I never realized Iowa even had football 
teams or that states generally don't have a unicameral state gov't.)

I also found I apparently have some southwest Iowan/Missouri accent I 
never realized I had til I moved to central Iowa. I thought everyone 
used Democrat bug, granddaddy long legs, cement (see-ment--which I
use to bug my friends now), fish/feesh and buggy for shopping cart.

My favorite way of listening to music is on my old portable Zenith 
record player which I know is older than I am.  Records have such a 
better sound quality than CDs do. However, you can't listen to
records in the car so I love my CDs too.  Dylan, Beatles, individual 
Beatles, Tom Petty, Roy Orbison, Fats Domino, John Denver, Queen, 
ELO, Sheryl Crow, Mary-Chapin Carpenter, Wallflowers, Red Hot Chili
Peppers, Sublime, Christine Kane, are my listening choices along with 
some musicals like Les Mis, Rent, Jesus Christ Superstar.  Then
occasionally throw in some Hank Williams, Charley Pride, Cher, Gary 
Lewis, the Kabalas, and er- a Dean Martin album borrowed from my 
parents (is a bit ashamed).

A Goldfeesh

"Habits of speech are indicative of reality: people rarely refer to 
themselves as Pennsylvanians; New Yorkers are residents of a city;
and there is no word by which a citizen of Massachusetts or
Connecticut can call himself. But Iowans always speak of themselves
as Iowans." 
     Prof. Laurence Lafore quoted in Iowa: The Middle Land by Prof. 
Dorothy Schweider





From saintbacchus at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 25 22:12:14 2002
From: saintbacchus at yahoo.com (saintbacchus)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 22:12:14 -0000
Subject: Accented English
In-Reply-To: <a5e4ik+b9dq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a5ecru+98sn@eGroups.com>

--- "alyeskakc" <alyeskakc at n...> wrote:

<<
I'd like to know what they teach these people in school.
Granted New Mexico doesn't have the best educational
system in the country but we at least know all the states.
>>

Jeez, no kidding. When I was in 5th grade, I had to
memorize all the states and their capitals and locations;
isn't this basic, compulsory information? And even if
not, don't kids watch cartoons anymore? I learned all the
capitals ahead of my class by memorizing the State Song
from Animaniacs. Yeah, sometimes it pays to be a geek. *g*

Side note: when I was in New Mexico about five years ago,
I thought everybody sounded normal. Couldn't detect an
accent. They all wanted to know where I was from, though.
Weird, I thought. But when I got back to Wisconsin, I
noticed, for the first time, how nasal everybody sounds!
It's very weird to hear your own accent.




From dizzylizzy182 at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 25 22:20:34 2002
From: dizzylizzy182 at yahoo.com (Elizabeth Sager)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 14:20:34 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Digest Number 555
In-Reply-To: <1014647489.382.58481.m12@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20020225222034.2739.qmail@web20402.mail.yahoo.com>

<<Person: England...is that in Ireland?
Me: No, England is part of Britain.
Person: Is *that* in Ireland?
Me: No, but it's nearby. Kinda like New York and
Pennsylvania.
Person: Oh. So they're like different states?
Me: Yep, except actually different countries. Like
America and Canada, but smaller.
Person: Wow, I had no idea.>>

And you did this with such patience John O_O I commend
you. I live in probably the most uncultured town in
the entire country and even I knew that. Of course, I
had to explain it to my entire World History class
today when studying the English Civil War and to my
dad during the opening ceremonies to the Olympics...

Mahoney:
<<"This is Dana, she's from [pick 
one: Ohio/Idaho/...um, where did you say?]."  Not half
as bad as what you describe, but entertaining.  I
think that Iowa is the US's best kept secret,
really.>>

*looks up from her mountain of Biology homework* I
hear ya there! Where are you from in Iowa? I'm from
Iowa too, bit too small for my tastes.

<<Mahoney
Iowa-luver>>

That makes one of us ;)

Liz

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games
http://sports.yahoo.com



From foxmoth at qnet.com  Mon Feb 25 23:08:28 2002
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 23:08:28 -0000
Subject: Geographical cluelessness, Chicago
Message-ID: <a5eg5c+rdo3@eGroups.com>

When I was a student in Austria, people would ask me about the 
Mob (when she was a kid, my mother used to see Al Capone's 
gang riding the running boards with their tommyguns, but I never 
did)  and the stockyards (closed when I was about twelve). 

My Austrian teachers all had stories about people who wanted to 
know about the kangaroos.

Did you know that the "cheeseburger, cheeseburger" bit is 
based on a real restaurant in Chicago? 

Pippin
who misses being able to visit Second City theater.




From nethilia at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 25 23:39:25 2002
From: nethilia at yahoo.com (Tasha--Nethilia)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 15:39:25 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Shoes, Sheets, and States
In-Reply-To: <1014675637.2441.38614.m12@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20020225233925.72482.qmail@web14605.mail.yahoo.com>

> So, do *you* lie on your bed with your shoes on? Do
> members of your 
> family? Friends and neighbours? Is it a common
> custom? Is it common 
> in teen culture maybe? Is it prevalent on TV or is
> my friend nuts?
> 
> anthropologically yours,
> 
> Naama :-)

I don't. I take off my shoes the second I enter my
house/room/dorm/whatever. Or the same to others'
houses unless they tell me to put them back on. Then
again, I wear sandals everywhere. I hate socks. The
only time I wear socks is when I wear my hiking boots.


~*~*~*

> *chuckles*  On a related note, being from Texas, I
> get the horse comment a
> lot. (I've probably been on a horse a hand full of
> times in my life.)  

LOL! I get that too, living in Texas. I always reply
with, "Yah, I used to ride a horse, but living in the
inner city, mine got stolen. I miss Old Paint." 

> And
> yeah, we get comments about the accent thing all the
> time.  I have trouble
> on the phone when talking to people from other parts
> of the country.  They
> automatically knock about 60 IQ points off my
> intelligence and ask me to
> repeat things and spell them because of my accent. >
-Evil Flame

I'm kinda lucky. I have a mixed accent--a blend of
Midwestern and Texan. So almost no one can place it. 

~*~*~

> I haven't weighed in much on this thread...but
> really, people who don't know
> New Mexico as a state?  (hope this isn't too
> political; incendio me if it
> is.)  Anyway, it seems strange that people wouldn't
> know the US states; I
> was quizzed on them several times in 4th grade. 
> That's about 9-10 years
> old.  Do some people forget that, or do they not get
> that part of education?

I found it sad that people in my college don't know
the 50 states. 

> They teach them all they should know, or at least
> they try to, but if 
> the students consider try outs for base-, foot-,
> basket-, 
> softballteams or cheerleader-troops, or results of
> ballgames, or 
> what's happening at the next Ricki Lake or Jerry
> Springer-show more 
> important than the 47th state to join the union, the
> teachers' 
> options get a bit limited.  Geography and history
> are also two 
> subjects that are at high risk of falling into the
> "why do we have to 
> do this stuff, anyway - we don't need it?"-category
> with many 
> students.  

Very true. I wonder how many adults know them.

> Jeez, no kidding. When I was in 5th grade, I had to
> memorize all the states and their capitals and
> locations;
> isn't this basic, compulsory information? And even
> if
> not, don't kids watch cartoons anymore? I learned
> all the
> capitals ahead of my class by memorizing the State
> Song
> from Animaniacs. Yeah, sometimes it pays to be a
> geek. *g*

I learned all the capitals in 5th grade, but I did it
because I was in a competition. I was the only one who
did. and I learned the 50 states in alphabetical order
from a song. It makes things easier when I'm looking
up stuff.  ^.^

--Neth

=====
--Nethilia de Lobo--
79% obsessed with Harry Potter
Wand: Dragon Heartstring, Ash, 7 inches
**Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus.**

http://www.geocities.com/spenecial
Spenecial.com. Two girls. One Website. Total Chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games
http://sports.yahoo.com



From ganvira at earthlink.net  Mon Feb 25 23:38:42 2002
From: ganvira at earthlink.net (Terry van Ettinger)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 15:38:42 -0800
Subject: Filk postings
References: <20020225214734.74272.qmail@web14610.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <003101c1be55$8f9ccc80$0797cd18@charterpipeline.com>

Just wanted to say I love those filk posts that come through the HPFGU list
every once in a while!  They're a blast to read, and I've gone over to the
web page and red some of the others as well.  I'll probably go back some
time and read through some more of 'em...and if I know the tune I'll
probably sing with 'em at the same time.

Terry




From ganvira at earthlink.net  Mon Feb 25 23:45:24 2002
From: ganvira at earthlink.net (Terry van Ettinger)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 15:45:24 -0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Shoes, Sheets, and States
References: <20020225233925.72482.qmail@web14605.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <005201c1be56$7ea9b2c0$0797cd18@charterpipeline.com>

I've had people tell me I have an accent, but they can't place it usually.
I had a friend who swore I had a Montanan accent, for what that's worth.  I
never thought of Montanans as having any sort of accent, but if someone
thinks such a thing exists, well, I guess he hears something I don't.

Terry
> I'm kinda lucky. I have a mixed accent--a blend of
> Midwestern and Texan. So almost no one can place it.





From alyeskakc at netzero.net  Tue Feb 26 01:04:55 2002
From: alyeskakc at netzero.net (alyeskakc)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 01:04:55 -0000
Subject: Accented English
In-Reply-To: <a5ecru+98sn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a5emvn+javj@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "saintbacchus" <saintbacchus at y...> wrote:

> Side note: when I was in New Mexico about five years ago,
> I thought everybody sounded normal. Couldn't detect an
> accent. They all wanted to know where I was from, though.
> Weird, I thought. But when I got back to Wisconsin, I
> noticed, for the first time, how nasal everybody sounds!
> It's very weird to hear your own accent.


If you were in Albuquerque you would be correct in saying we have no 
accent. In fact there's a study (of which I can't remember the name) 
that tracked accents/dialects through out the US. The study found 
that Albuquerque had no discernable accent compared to the rest of 
the country.

However there are several different accents through out the state. 
Eastern New Mexicans tend to have the west Texas drawl. In northern 
New Mexico they have what we locals call a moach, a type of spanish 
accent.  If you have ever seen the Milagro Bean Field War you'll see 
what I mean, or rather hear. 

I myself have a bit of a southern drawl because I grew up listening 
to my dad, who was from Mississippi. 

Cheers,
Kristin




From dairyspice at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 26 01:40:37 2002
From: dairyspice at hotmail.com (burgbarbl)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 01:40:37 -0000
Subject: Accented English
In-Reply-To: <017801c1be36$1f7ece40$0797cd18@charterpipeline.com>
Message-ID: <a5ep2l+hu00@eGroups.com>

Terry wrote:
> I haven't weighed in much on this thread...but really, people who 
don't know > New Mexico as a state?  (hope this isn't too political; 
incendio me if it > is.)  Anyway, it seems strange that people 
wouldn't know the US states; I > was quizzed on them several times in 
4th grade.  That's about 9-10 years> old.  Do some people forget that, 
or do they not get that part of education?

I actually missed learning the states and their capitals. I moved 
between 3rd and 4th grades from New Jersey to Connecticut. In NJ 
students were taught them in 4th grade; in CT, they were taught in 3rd 
grade. I also missed learning to play the recorder because of this.

                      -BarbL




From mjollner at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 26 01:56:14 2002
From: mjollner at yahoo.com (mjollner)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 01:56:14 -0000
Subject: "Come with?", "Cheezborger," Norwenglish
Message-ID: <a5epvu+lplv@eGroups.com>

Aberforth's Goat wrote:

>BTW, I once had a Canadian friend who would always "come with."
>Whether this was normal, I don't know; in many other respects, he
>wasn't, so there's no telling.

Weeell, I grew up in South Dakota, and once I got out into the world a 
bit, I used to be teased mercilessly for using the same verbal 
construction.  "Wanna come with?"  Makes perfect sense to me!  Like 
referring to carbonated beverages as "pop."  I mean, really, what else 
would you say? :)

Btw, I *love* your moniker!  I grew up on a farm, and the passage to 
which your e-name refers never fails to make me snicker.  Y'know, 
people talk, you hear things...

********************

And speaking of nostalgia, pippin_999 wistfully recalled:

>Did you know that the "cheeseburger, cheeseburger" bit is based on a 
>real restaurant in Chicago? 

Yes, the Billy Goat Tavern!  I never fail to indulge in a 
"cheezborger" held together by sheer cholesterol whenever I'm in town 
and wandering down Michigan Ave.  I went to college in the Windy 
City's vicinity, and I get a little teary-eyed meself when thinking 
about that Toddlin' Town...

***********************

And in reply to Tabouli's musings on English around Australia and 
around the world, pengolodh_sc chimed in:

>You just increased my interest in South African English greatly. 
>Indeed, from what you're saying here, it sounds not dissimilar to 
>what is sometimes termed "Norwenglish", a phenomenon where Norwegian 
>English-speakers and -writers will make mistakes influenced by their 
>native tongue. Some experts on developments of cultures and 
>languages maintain that Norwegian as a language is doomed. If that 
>be so, I wonder if South African English might be showing just where 
>Norwegian language is headed.

Norwegian, doomed as a language?!?  Well, that would make future 
visits to my relatives over there much easier!  I've studied a bit of 
norsk, but found it difficult to communicate with my family members 
without resorting to English most of the time.  Probably a combination 
of my inability to understand their regional accent and their 
excellent command of English.  

Mjollner, who really must get to studying now...




From nesbitaa at purdue.edu  Tue Feb 26 02:00:45 2002
From: nesbitaa at purdue.edu (oboakk)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 02:00:45 -0000
Subject: Accented English
In-Reply-To: <a5ep2l+hu00@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a5eq8d+c07k@eGroups.com>

Barb: wrote:
> I actually missed learning the states and their capitals. I moved 
> between 3rd and 4th grades from New Jersey to Connecticut. In NJ 
> students were taught them in 4th grade; in CT, they were taught in 
3rd 
> grade. I also missed learning to play the recorder because of this.

Hmm...I was subjected to the recorder for the entirety of elementary 
school, and we also learned a song with all of the states in quasi-
alphabetical order (which I can still sing, by the way).

Back on the topic of accents, has anyone ever heard of a central 
Indiana accent?  Being from Indianapolis, I'm convinced that there 
isn't one.  Folks from northern Indiana tend to have a Chicago-style 
accent, and those from southern Indiana have an almost Kentucky 
accent.  I fear I may have colorless speech!!

-Abby




From witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 26 02:30:40 2002
From: witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com (Wanda Mallett)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 18:30:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Happy Birthday Finwitch
Message-ID: <20020226023040.40689.qmail@web13704.mail.yahoo.com>


Happy Birthday to you Finwitch from Wanda the Witch and Her Very Merry Band of Muggles 100%!

We toast you and wish you all the best on this day! May all your goodies have a little magic and maybe a HP gift too!

Schnoogles,

Wanda the Witch of Revere, Massachusetts and Her Very Merry Band of Muggles 100%



---------------------------------
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From john at walton.vu  Tue Feb 26 02:32:53 2002
From: john at walton.vu (John Walton)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 02:32:53 +0000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Happy Birthday Finwitch
In-Reply-To: <20020226023040.40689.qmail@web13704.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B8A0A443.B344%john@walton.vu>

Yeah, happy birthday, Finwitch! Thanks for contributing to the discussions
here at HPFGU! *grins and pops champagne cork*

--John
____________________________________________

"Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste
good with ketchup." -Anon.

John Walton || john at walton.vu
____________________________________________




From Indyfans at aol.com  Tue Feb 26 02:55:09 2002
From: Indyfans at aol.com (Indyfans at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 21:55:09 EST
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Accented English
Message-ID: <b4.7289fc5.29ac530d@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/25/02 9:04:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
nesbitaa at purdue.edu writes:

<< 
 Back on the topic of accents, has anyone ever heard of a central 
 Indiana accent?  Being from Indianapolis, I'm convinced that there 
 isn't one.  Folks from northern Indiana tend to have a Chicago-style 
 accent, and those from southern Indiana have an almost Kentucky 
 accent.  I fear I may have colorless speech!!
 
 -Abby >>
Abby, we are originally from Indy, and I know what you mean about the 
Northern and Southern parts of Indiana and their accents!!  Central IN is 
pretty darn normal, meaning you could read the news on ABC without taking 
speech lessons!   There are just a few very mild  Indy twangs ...and I miss 
them!! 
                     Hoosier Hugs, 
                      Jen



From tabouli at unite.com.au  Tue Feb 26 04:06:02 2002
From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 15:06:02 +1100
Subject: Intellectuals in a cold climate, South African society
Message-ID: <00d401c1be7b$0d68a060$530ddccb@price>

Sean:
> As Tabouli mentioned, even here we differentiate on regional accents, and when
I was small we moved from Melbourne to Far North Queensland (the caps are
intentional: the rest of us have taken to referring to it as the Deep North),
where my clean Melbourne accent was taken by all to be "sissy" and several
unprintable descriptions, which basically boil down to an opinion that I knew
too much for my own good, and a healthy beating would soon cure my malady. I
very quickly learnt to be silent.<

Another Australian!  Excellent, excellent, it was getting a bit burdensome carrying the flag all by myself.  Now, I've never been to the Deep North, but I am of course familiar with the sissy south's stereotypes of Queenslanders in general, and rural/far north Queenslanders in general...!  I've long speculated on this as evidence of how climate shapes culture and temperament.

Melbourne is considered to be the most "European" of Australian cities (Sydney is supposed to be the most "American").  Indeed, I have met Europeans and even a New Zealander who say that Melbourne is the only Australian city they would consider living in, because it's more progressive and sophisticated than the rest of those uncultured Aussie cities (?).  I think they have excellent taste, of course, but parochialism aside it's interesting to muse on why this is. 

Being the closest to the South Pole of all mainland capitals (Hobart, the capital of Tasmania, is beautiful, but hardly in the big league at 300,000 people), Melbourne has the coolest climate of the major Australian cities, and hence has a reputation elsewhere of being a ghastly, grey place of perpetual rain and cold (Tabouli glances casually out of the window at the pleasant 25C/78Fsummer's day, resplendent with sunshine, low humidity and bonus cool breeze).  Unwitting tourists have come to Melbourne in the middle of winter without any warm clothes, believing Australia to be a beach resort country of eternal sun and surf, and get a very nasty shock.  Trust me, it is cold in Melbourne in winter.  It may not be up there with Canada and Northern Europe, it may not snow or even drop below 0C/32F much, but we get icy winds from Antarctica, icy rains which drizzle on for days, and icy lawns covered in frost.

Moreover, our houses tend not be as efficiently heated as houses in more obviously cold climates, as shivering Canadians and Europeans are always complaining.  "Why do Australians keep on telling us we should be used to the cold?" they protest, hastily packing away their beach gear.  "In Canada/England/etc. we *heat* our houses properly and dress for the cold!  I've never been so cold at home as I am here!"

Anyway, to get to the point, I've long been convinced that cold climates are much more likely to produce intellectuals and highbrows.  Why sit inside reading literature, drinking sophisticated wines and coffees, conversing about art and politics and watching arthouse films when you could be outside having a barbecue on the beach?

Take a friend of mine who briefly left Melbourne for Brisbane (capital of Queensland, sub-tropical), for example.  He joined the arthouse film society, and it was tiny!  A mere handful of 30 or so highbrows for the whole of Brisbane!  He actually said it was, in some ways, much nicer that way... in Melbourne you have hundreds of competing highbrow film societies, all exclusive and elitist.

Then there was that grumpy New Zealand woman I met in an Athens youth hostel, who was loudly scathing about Australia and all its works.  She was a vegan, and claimed that *no-one* had ever had a problem with this in New Zealand, whereas in Australia *everyone* seemed to be hassling her about this!  (Australians, bunch of uncultured plebs, wouldn't know a progressive stance on consumerism, ecology and animal welfare if it smothered them in a baby sealskin coat...)  I expressed surprise.  I know countless strident Australian vegetarians and vegans, and have, over the last 15 years, seen a vegetarian revolution in Australian restaurants, supermarkets and cafes.  I also suggested that her observations probably had everything to do with the social circles she was frequenting in the respective countries (there are certainly Australian circles where veganism would be considered the ultimate in pretentious middle-class wankery).  She scowled suspiciously at me.  "You're from Melbourne, aren't you?" she said.

[Interestingly, I was surprised to arrive in South Africa in 1998 to discover that vegetarianism still appeared to be the domain of eccentric hippies only.  Any South African listmembers out there for more informed comment?]

John:
> He's a mature student (mid 30s) and remembers, during his late teens
and early 20s, having to pass himself off as Australian while travelling
lest he be harangued by anti-apartheid activists. The fact that he himself
is a strong believer in racial equality never entered into it.<

Ironically enough (especially considering recent events), there was, and to some extent is, a strong prejudice against white South Africans in Australia.  At 15, my peers harangued me endlessly about writing to an Afrikaner penfriend, accusing me of "supporting Apartheid" (see my October post "Rant on Overdog Racism").  The people who lived across the road from us when I was a child were white South Africans, and told us some people refused to associate with them.

In South Africa, I met whites who knew of and deeply resented this.  "Who are Australians to accuse *us* of racism?  They killed off most of *their* indigenous people!"  I also noticed something rather interesting... I actually hear a lot more *overt* racist comments in Australia than I heard in South Africa.  Of course, I was interacting with a pretty unusual subset of SA society and was only there for five weeks, but nonetheless (I'm conscious that I'm working on limited information here, and welcome input from South Africans, who hopefully won't be too offended by anything I say here...)

South Africa reminded me of a colour-coded version of a feudalist society, with the whites as nobles and landowners, the coloured as the bourgeoisie, and the blacks as the peasants.  It wasn't so much that the peasants were revolting (so to speak!), but that they just didn't exist in noble society.  Didn't feature on the radar.  Whereas in Australia, non-white immigrants and Aborigines are mixed in across different social strata, and are hence more of a presence in the lives of WASP Australians (particularly those in large capital cities, where most immigrants go).  It's one thing if the only non-whites you know are sweeping your streets and serving you in shops and working in your factories (i.e. of manifestly lower socio-economic status than you and all the people you socialise with), and quite another if you have a Chinese doctor, an Indian accountant, and Aboriginal and Vietnamese children at school with your children.  Not to mention half-Chinese half-white Australians posting on your Harry Potter OT-Chatter list...

Tabouli.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From morrigan at byz.org  Tue Feb 26 04:17:53 2002
From: morrigan at byz.org (Morrigan //Vicki//)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 20:17:53 -0800
Subject: "Cheezborger," New Mexico, Chicago accents
In-Reply-To: <a5epvu+lplv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <NFBBLPEOCLIKCDBACHIBCEEFDBAA.morrigan@byz.org>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: mjollner [mailto:mjollner at yahoo.com]
>
> >Did you know that the "cheeseburger, cheeseburger" bit is based on a
> >real restaurant in Chicago?
>
> Yes, the Billy Goat Tavern!  I never fail to indulge in a
> "cheezborger" held together by sheer cholesterol whenever I'm in town
> and wandering down Michigan Ave.  I went to college in the Windy
> City's vicinity, and I get a little teary-eyed meself when thinking
> about that Toddlin' Town...

*grins* Yep, I've been there as well.  I went to Loyola University Chicago
for undergrad and spent WAY too much time down on Michigan Ave and around
Water Tower Place.  Where did you go to school?

And Abby said:

> Folks from northern Indiana tend to have a Chicago-style accent...<snip>

WHAT Chicago accent???  I do NOT have an accent! *sob*  I am accent-less!
There is no such thing as a Chicago accent!  That's why I used to be an air
personality on the radio, back when I had my 15 minutes of fame!

On the New Mexico thing...of course in school we had to learn all 50 states
and their capitals, as well as all the countries in the world and their
capital cities.  Plus, I went to New Mexico before I was even 3 months old.
My maternal grandparents lived in Texas, so my parents drove down there with
my newborn self, and after the visit, they drove on to New Mexico and took
me through Carlsbad Caverns in a pack on my mom's back.  As you can imagine,
I got to hear this story often growing up. :)  I've always loved spelunking,
and I can't help but wonder if it was because my parents took me there as a
baby.  And I was thrilled when my parents took me and my siblings back to
Carlsbad Caverns about 12 years later, when I could actually *remember* it.

Vicki
~~~
Wanna read me babble on and on?
http://www.livejournal.com/users/morrigan_veela
Me, rated G: www.byz.org/~morrigan
Morrigan's Harry Potter Slash www.byz.org/~morrigan/hpslash.html




From Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com  Tue Feb 26 10:36:02 2002
From: Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com (Aberforth's Goat)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 11:36:02 +0100
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Shoes in States (but no Sheets)
References: <20020225233925.72482.qmail@web14605.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <00b001c1beb1$6febd5a0$0200a8c0@shasta>

Nethilia wrote,

> I don't. I take off my shoes the second I enter my
> house/room/dorm/whatever. <snip>

Interesting - and here's another question about US culture:

In Switzerland it's considered uncouth to walk about inside with
one's shoes on. You either wear socks or slipper in your own
home, and many families - particulary if they live in chilly
apartments like mine - have several pairs of inexpensive slippers
for their guests.

When I was last in the US, my grandmother was amused at the way
we "Swiss" Grays would leave our shoes in a neat row by the front
door. Apparently, she had never seen anyone do this before.

Is this custom unkown in the US?

Baaaaaa!

Aberforth's Goat (a.k.a. Mike Gray)
_______________________

"Of course, I'm not entirely sure he can read, so that
may not have been bravery...."



_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 26 11:59:40 2002
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (lupinesque)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 11:59:40 -0000
Subject: Shoes in States
In-Reply-To: <00b001c1beb1$6febd5a0$0200a8c0@shasta>
Message-ID: <a5ftbc+c587@eGroups.com>

Mike the Goat wrote:
 
> When I was last in the US, my grandmother was amused at the way
> we "Swiss" Grays would leave our shoes in a neat row by the front
> door. Apparently, she had never seen anyone do this before.
> 
> Is this custom unkown in the US?

I just went to a house where everyone was asked to take off their 
shoes and the hosts had a basket of slippers for everyone.  One of 
them was Japanese-American, and I speculated that that's where it came 
from.

In the other US household I'm familiar with where the norm has been 
shoes-off (no slippers for guests, though), one of the couple is . . . 
Swiss.

I really like it.  My mother was once told by a friend, "When I come 
to your house I want to take my shoes off," and regarded it as a high 
compliment.  To me, as to her friend, it's a sign of comfort and 
feeling at home; I like to take my shoes off as soon as I get 
home and pull on slippers or wool socks (like Dumbledore, I could 
happily join the Sock of the Month Club).  When I am at others' homes, 
though, I hesitate even to ask whether I can take my shoes off.  I 
have the vague sense they'll think it's forward, as if I'd helped 
myself to something from the fridge, curled up on their living room 
couch, and turned on the TV.

Amy Z
who just saw her 7-week-old niece and is smitten




From Indyfans at aol.com  Tue Feb 26 12:14:00 2002
From: Indyfans at aol.com (Indyfans at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 07:14:00 EST
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Shoes in States (but no Sheets)
Message-ID: <b7.1c414ed0.29acd608@aol.com>

In Minnesota, it's a given that you immediately take your shoes off when you 
enter a house.  There are even signs at the doors of model houses to do so.  
When we first moved there, I thought those signs were for construction 
workers!  Not uncommon to see 10 pairs of shoes outside someone's house.    
                 Jen



From Indyfans at aol.com  Tue Feb 26 12:16:49 2002
From: Indyfans at aol.com (Indyfans at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 07:16:49 EST
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] RE:  "Cheezborger," New Mexico, Chicago accents
Message-ID: <61.1b8cd450.29acd6b1@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/25/02 11:20:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
morrigan at byz.org writes:

<< 
 
 > Folks from northern Indiana tend to have a Chicago-style accent...<snip>
 
 WHAT Chicago accent???  I do NOT have an accent! *sob*  I am accent-less!
 There is no such thing as a Chicago accent!  That's why I used to be an air
 personality on the radio, back when I had my 15 minutes of fame!
  >>
Well, there is a *little* accent- did you ever see the Saturday Night Live 
skits back in the Chicago Bears' heyday when Norm, the SNL cast, et.al, would 
toast "Da Bearz"?
                                  Jen



From macloudt at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Feb 26 13:00:13 2002
From: macloudt at yahoo.co.uk (macloudt)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 13:00:13 -0000
Subject: English Accents
Message-ID: <a5g0st+81j7@eGroups.com>

I've been reading the posts on this topic with interest, especially 
since it really hits home.  My parents first moved from the 
Netherlands to Canada before I was born.  My mom was 37 and had 
learned English in high school from a British nun, so she thought she 
was prepared language-wise.  As if...the first day in their new home 
a neighbour's child wandered into the kitchen and said to my mom, "My 
mom is going to the store.  Do you need anything?".  And Mom panicked 
because she knew what a *shop* was, but had no idea what a *store* 
was.

Four years later I was born, and I can't remember a time when Mom 
wasn't correcting my English grammar or vocabulary.  She was a 
Domestic Goddess as well so spent all her time in the neighbourhood 
with non-Dutch speakers, while my Dad still often spoke Dutch at 
work.  As a consequence Mom's English was far better than my Dad's, 
and also her Dutch accent was far less pronounced than Dad's.  No one 
ever had problems understanding Mom, but Dad still stumps English 
speakers sometimes.

The really fun bit was after I'd moved to England and my folks would 
come to visit me.  Since they spoke Canadian English with a Dutch 
accent, *nobody* could figure out where they were from!

Of course my Canadian accent is still thick as can be, and always 
will be, but still I've picked up some West Country.  I use the local 
influctions and some of the vocabulary, but still revert to good 'ol 
Canuck.  I still say to-may-to rather than to-mah-to, for example, 
and use the term sidewalk rather than pavement.  My kids speak fluent 
West Country, of course, though once in a while I catch them using 
Canadian vocab or cliches.

But when I first moved here I had grave problems understanding anyone 
from anywhere in the British Isles.  The Scots, Irish, English, and 
Welsh people I knew back in Toronto had had their accents "softened", 
but these accents in the raw threw me.  Part of the problem was that 
they all understood *me*, probably thanks to American TV programs, 
and it never entered their minds that I didn't know what the hell 
they were saying.  It was several months before I could easily 
understand the locals.  Funny thing is, I have no problems with any 
British accents now, whereas many Brits have problems understanding 
Brits from other parts with different accents and dialects.  Strange.

And yes, I still get pretty riled up when I'm called an American :)  
It's nothing against Americans...it's just a Canadian thing.  And if 
a local *really* wants to ruin my day, they'll tell me that Canada 
and the US are pretty much the same country anyway.  Hmmm...

Cheers!

Mary Ann :)




From bray.262 at osu.edu  Tue Feb 26 08:53:37 2002
From: bray.262 at osu.edu (Rachel Bray)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 08:53:37 EST5EDT
Subject: Shoes in States
Message-ID: <759A981960@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>

>When I was last in the US, my grandmother was amused at 
>the way we "Swiss" Grays would leave our shoes in a neat 
>row by the front door. Apparently, she had never seen 
>anyone do this before.  Is this custom unknown in the US?


Well, when we go to my grandmother's, all shoes are taken 
off at the door.  This is because she has these beautiful 
hard wood floors and the idea of scuffing them makes one 
sick.  :-)

But, my grandparents are also Welsh.  Perhaps this is a 
Welsh thing?  Because my dad said when he was growing up he 
and his sisters didn't wear shoes inside the house.  
Slippers and socks (which is big time fun because you feel 
like you're ice skating!) but not shoes.

I'd rather go barefoot all the time, myself.  Then again, I 
wear a size 11 shoe and it's no fun wearing that size of 
tennis shoe or boot....tends to wear one out.
:-)

Rachel Bray
The Ohio State University
Fees, Deposits and Disbursements


Frodo: I wish the ring had never come to me....I wish 
none of this had happened.

Gandalf: So do all who live to see such times, but that 
is not for them to decide.  All we have to decide is 
what to do with the time that is given us.



From s_ings at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 26 14:12:01 2002
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 09:12:01 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Shoes in States (but no Sheets)
In-Reply-To: <00b001c1beb1$6febd5a0$0200a8c0@shasta>
Message-ID: <20020226141201.38265.qmail@web14610.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Aberforth's Goat <Aberforths_Goat at Yahoo.com>
wrote:
> Nethilia wrote,
> 
> > I don't. I take off my shoes the second I enter my
> > house/room/dorm/whatever. <snip>
> 
> Interesting - and here's another question about US
> culture:
> 
> In Switzerland it's considered uncouth to walk about
> inside with
> one's shoes on. You either wear socks or slipper in
> your own
> home, and many families - particulary if they live
> in chilly
> apartments like mine - have several pairs of
> inexpensive slippers
> for their guests.
> 
> When I was last in the US, my grandmother was amused
> at the way
> we "Swiss" Grays would leave our shoes in a neat row
> by the front
> door. Apparently, she had never seen anyone do this
> before.
> 
> Is this custom unkown in the US?
> 
I can't speak for the US, but that's pretty much the
norm for people I know here in Canada. I'd be
positively peeved if someone walked into my house
without taking off their shoes. Our place is
relatively warm, so we don't keep extra slippers
around for guests, but I do know others who have
slippers handy for their visitors.

Sheryll

=====
"We need to be united and strong. We'll have losses and scares, sure. And you'll be there for each other, helping each other through the bad times."
 blpurdom - Harry Potter and the Psychic Serpent, Chapter 26

______________________________________________________________________ 
Find, Connect, Date! http://personals.yahoo.ca



From blpurdom at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 26 17:17:48 2002
From: blpurdom at yahoo.com (blpurdom)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 17:17:48 -0000
Subject: Intellectuals in a cold climate, South African society
In-Reply-To: <00d401c1be7b$0d68a060$530ddccb@price>
Message-ID: <a5gfvs+o3o6@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "Tabouli" <tabouli at u...> wrote:
> Ironically enough (especially considering recent events), there 
> was, and to some extent is, a strong prejudice against white South 
> Africans in Australia.  At 15, my peers harangued me endlessly 
> about writing to an Afrikaner penfriend, accusing me 
> of "supporting Apartheid" (see my October post "Rant on Overdog 
> Racism").  The people who lived across the road from us when I was 
> a child were white South Africans, and told us some people refused 
> to associate with them.

The only white South Africans I have known were reviled and 
ostracized by other whites in South Africa for living in a black 
township and inviting blacks to live with them.  This lovely couple 
came to live here in Philadelphia while one of them was doing 
advanced university work and they attended our church while they 
were here.  It was during this time that Mandela was freed and 
became president.  

Later, when other national elections were held, a man from our 
church traveled to South Africa as part of an international group 
that was going to "observe," and he said he probably wouldn't have 
done it if our friends H. & C. hadn't been here, acquainting us more 
intimately with what life was really like in South Africa.  We sent 
him off to strains of the choir singing "Siya Hamba," a South-
African song (alternating with the English transation, "Walking in 
the Light of God").

Now our friends H. & C. have a friend living with them who is black 
and suffering from AIDS, and our congregation has raised the funds 
to send her daughter to a private day school in her township which 
will give her a slight advantage compared to the usual township 
schools.  We get regular letters from this wonderful girl, who 
adores her uniforms, her school and the penfriends she has in the US 
who are happy to help her have a better life (she wants to be a 
teacher!).  The kids in the Sunday School write to her about what 
American schools are like.  I would love to go to South Africa 
someday to visit these friends in their own home; they've been a 
huge inspiration to me and my husband in the importance of working 
for justice and peace whether or not you're the one suffering the 
injustice.  King said we are all interconnected, and it's true.  Too 
bad more people don't realize that.

--Barb 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP_Psych/
http://schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb





From pennylin at swbell.net  Tue Feb 26 17:47:29 2002
From: pennylin at swbell.net (plinsenmayer)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 17:47:29 -0000
Subject: Shoes and Sheets
In-Reply-To: <a5dnbs+k93j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a5ghnh+6e12@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "naamagatus" <naama_gat at h...> wrote:
>
> So, do *you* lie on your bed with your shoes on? Do members of your
> family? Friends and neighbours? Is it a common custom? Is it common
> in teen culture maybe? Is it prevalent on TV or is my friend nuts?

I'm a bit behind the times, but simply had to reply (without having
read anyone else's responses yet but seeing there are a fair number of
them).

Seeing as how I only wear shoes about 3 seconds before walking out the
door to go somewhere (not just outside as I most often step outside
without shoes too, even in winter ... but actually get in *the car*).
 I've been known to wear no shoes when we had people over for dinner,
to find my husband hissing "Don't you think you should sneak off & put
on some *shoes* for God's sake?"

Is it any wonder that my 10 mth old daughter wants nothing to do with
shoes, and it's such a fight that I could care less if she wears them
or not?  <g>

Penny
(who is very glad that she lives in a climate where a baby can wear
onesies & go barefoot 10 mths out of the year ... dressing a squirming
kid into lots of clothes & shoes is a total nightmare)




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Tue Feb 26 17:49:21 2002
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 17:49:21 -0000
Subject: "Cheezborger," New Mexico, Chicago accents
In-Reply-To: <NFBBLPEOCLIKCDBACHIBCEEFDBAA.morrigan@byz.org>
Message-ID: <a5ghr1+ph3i@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "Morrigan //Vicki//" <morrigan at b...> 
wrote:

> WHAT Chicago accent???  I do NOT have an accent! *sob*  I 
am accent-less!There is no such thing as a Chicago accent!  
That's why I used to be an air personality on the radio, back 
when I had my 15 minutes of fame!
> 

Aww, c'mon. What about Hizzoner da Mare? What about 
midwestern twang? What about that  old joke?

Q:  "Does dis bus go to da Loop?" 
A:  "No, Ma'am, this bus goes "beep beep"!

Pippin
who actually heard a Chicago bus driver give that answer. I 
guess he couldn't resist. 
 (Joke explanation  for non-Chicagoans follows spoiler space)
*
*
*
*
*
*
The Loop is the Chicago business district, so called because 
the elevated train tracks make a loop around it.




From pennylin at swbell.net  Tue Feb 26 17:50:11 2002
From: pennylin at swbell.net (plinsenmayer)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 17:50:11 -0000
Subject: Very Odd HP Dream
In-Reply-To: <00c701c1be3d$8934b5a0$2a7c63d1@texas.net>
Message-ID: <a5ghsj+6lhr@eGroups.com>

Hi --

<snip very entertaining dream sequence related by Amanda>

I'm sure the slashers in our midst are delighted to have had this
effect, however subliminally.  :--)

Imagine what you might be dreaming if you *did* read fanfic!

Penny




From s_ings at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 26 19:05:28 2002
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 14:05:28 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Dressing babies (was: Re: Shoes and Sheets)
In-Reply-To: <a5ghnh+6e12@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20020226190528.20207.qmail@web14604.mail.yahoo.com>


--- plinsenmayer <pennylin at swbell.net> wrote:
> Is it any wonder that my 10 mth old daughter wants
> nothing to do with
> shoes, and it's such a fight that I could care less
> if she wears them
> or not?  <g>

I thought that was just a "kid thing". I don't know
any kids who like to have socks and shoes forced onto
their little tootsies.
> 
> Penny
> (who is very glad that she lives in a climate where
> a baby can wear
> onesies & go barefoot 10 mths out of the year ...
> dressing a squirming
> kid into lots of clothes & shoes is a total
> nightmare)

Have you tried stuffing a squirming kid into a
snowsuit, boots, hats, mitts and a scarf? No, it's
fun, really.....naw, I didn't think anyone would
believe that one. :D

Sheryll, thankful they eventually learn to dress
themselves


=====
"We need to be united and strong. We'll have losses and scares, sure. And you'll be there for each other, helping each other through the bad times."
 blpurdom - Harry Potter and the Psychic Serpent, Chapter 26

______________________________________________________________________ 
Find, Connect, Date! http://personals.yahoo.ca



From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Tue Feb 26 19:27:14 2002
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 19:27:14 -0000
Subject: Shoes indoors
Message-ID: <a5gnii+8i4l@eGroups.com>

Aberforth's Goat wrote:

> In Switzerland it's considered uncouth to walk about inside with
> one's shoes on. You either wear socks or slipper in your own
> home, and many families - particulary if they live in chilly
> apartments like mine - have several pairs of inexpensive slippers
> for their guests.
> 
I think it is in part a generational thing.  

Forty years ago, houses were less well heated, floors in particular 
were cold in winter from draughts through ill-fitting windows, and 
less likely to be carpeted, and people couldn't afford luxuries like 
slippers for guests.

Now we have central heating, double glazing, thick pile carpets, and 
bunny slippers.

My parents in law regard it as the norm to keep shoes on indoors - 
friends of our own generation are much more likely to leave shoes by 
the door, at home or visiting.  We picked it up ourselves from 
friends who had a fair amount of contact with the middle east, where 
I believe keeping shoes on in the home is much worse than uncouth.

I think there is also a change in attitude about hygiene.  Floors are 
gradually moving in status from being an extension of the dirty 
outside to being part of the clean house.  For people who have pets, 
there is only so far you can take this.  We have some way to go 
before it will be normal to be comfortable about eating a morsel of 
food that has fallen on the floor, but we may get there.

David




From virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 26 21:15:41 2002
From: virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com (virtualworldofhp)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 21:15:41 -0000
Subject: Shoes indoors
In-Reply-To: <a5gnii+8i4l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a5gttt+562a@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "davewitley" <dfrankiswork at n...> wrote:
> Aberforth's Goat wrote:
> 
> > In Switzerland it's considered uncouth to walk about inside with
> > one's shoes on. You either wear socks or slipper in your own
> > home, and many families - particulary if they live in chilly
> > apartments like mine - have several pairs of inexpensive slippers
> > for their guests.
> > 
> I think it is in part a generational thing.  
> 
> Forty years ago, houses were less well heated, floors in particular 
> were cold in winter from draughts through ill-fitting windows, and 
> less likely to be carpeted, and people couldn't afford luxuries like 
> slippers for guests.
> 
> Now we have central heating, double glazing, thick pile carpets, and 
> bunny slippers.
> 
> David

But what is it if you don't even wear slippers?  The instant I come
home, the shoes are OFF.  I hate shoes.  I'd walk around other
peoples' houses barefoot if it wasn't considered mildly rude.  Well, I
do take them off if I'm there for an extended period of time--I don't
bother with them in hotel rooms or similar.  I dislike socks or
slippers or I guess foot covering of any kind.  If my feet are cold, I
put a blanket over them.  I don't see what the point of walking around
one's own house with shoes on is--surely you don't need "foot
protection" inside your own home?

-Megan (whose parents, by the way, almost always wear shoes inside)




From michelleapostolides at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Feb 26 21:23:42 2002
From: michelleapostolides at yahoo.co.uk (Michelle Apostolides)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 21:23:42 -0000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Shoes indoors
References: <a5gttt+562a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <001101c1bf0b$ddae07c0$27e7883e@Michelle>

But what is it if you don't even wear slippers?  The instant I come
home, the shoes are OFF.  I hate shoes.....
 
You know, funny you should say that because I hate shoes and socks with a passion. I cannot bear tights and  will only wear fishnets if I absolutely have to look feminine. 

Michelle


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 26 21:59:35 2002
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (lupinesque)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 21:59:35 -0000
Subject: Shoes indoors
In-Reply-To: <a5gnii+8i4l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a5h0g7+bv21@eGroups.com>

David observed:

> Floors are 
> gradually moving in status from being an extension of the dirty 
> outside to being part of the clean house.  For people who have 
pets, 
> there is only so far you can take this.  

Ah, not so.  My pet is definitely the tidiest, cleanest member of the 
household.  As much as she tries to teach us to groom ourselves 
properly, we can't hold a candle to her.

Michelle opined:

>I hate shoes and socks
>with a passion. I cannot bear tights and will only wear fishnets if 
>I absolutely have to look feminine. 

Taking off my stockings is such a high point of the day that it's 
almost worth it to wear the things just to have the Ahhhhhh of taking 
them off.  However, the even better part is then putting on wool 
socks.  I love going barefoot best, but my feet are apt to be cold in 
all but the warmest weather.

Amy
who lives somewhere that once proudly reported snow in *every month 
of the year*




From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Tue Feb 26 22:19:29 2002
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (dfrankiswork at netscape.net)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 17:19:29 -0500
Subject: Those nutty mods
Message-ID: <42D3123C.4ACE88AD.6E93A4F5@netscape.net>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "voicelady" <voicelady at m...> wrote:
> John wrote:  "...[snip of mods & elves e-mail addy and then:] 
> ... or magicalmods at y... (Mods only)..."
> 
> Okay, does my mind work in very strange ways, or did anyone else wonder for a split second why the mods chose as their e-mail address "magic almonds"?
> 
> Told you it was going to be off-topic...
> 
> Jeralyn, the Voicelady

Yes, I did exactly that too, the first time I saw that address, and chaffed the mods about it offlist too.  They're only just coming out of their shell after I cracked that one!  It must have gone against the grain!

* Crosses legs comfortably by the fireside * This reminds me of a story I heard once, from my grandmother, who heard it from the lady herself.  My grandmother's friend, a widow, had a son, who though bright, was something of a dreamer.  Being widowed, they were poor, and the time came when they had to sell their last almond tree, as one did in those days, so she sent the lad off to market with it.

On his way to the market, what should happen but that he should meet a beldame with a blackberry in her hair, who stopped him and asked him, 'How many almonds make seven?'  Being quick-witted, as I said, the lad answered in a flash 'If they make seven, they must be magic almonds', which you, being well brought-up children, all know is the right answer.

The beldame cackled with glee and said 'Good lad, good lad.  Now, if you want adventures and great riches, you must listen to me.  Give me your almond tree, and I will give you a magic almond, which you must plant at full moon when the werewolves are howling.  When you have done this you must restore the North which is lost, before you can live in happiness to the end of your days.'  Being a dreamer, as I said, our hero straight away gave her the tree in exchange for the magic almond.

When he got home his mother berated him, saying, how shall we now live, seeing you have given away our last wealth for nothing?  But three days later, young Newby (for such was his name), hearing the werewolves howl at dead of night, arose and planted the magic almond by the light of the full moon.  The following morning, when he arose, he saw a mighty almond tree stretching away into the heavens.

Being quick witted, and a dreamer (did I tell you that?), Newby straight away began to climb the tree, and in less time than it takes to say 'humongous', he had climbed right up into a fair land
in which the elves roamed and poltergeists played.  Remembering the words of the beldame, he set his face to the North, and began walking.  In no time at all, he came to a tent pitched, with many Woods round about, and a banner on which was inscribed 'The Philosopher's Rock #47'.

A young man, of countenance passing fair, came out of the tent, and said 'If you would pass this way, first you must Snip'.  And he handed Newby the Silver Scissors of Irrelevance, and pointed him at the Woods.  And when Newby had snipped to his heart's content, the young man said 'Go on, with my blessing, and keep the Scissors, for they will bring you great reputation'.

Newby continued on his way, and after being woefully cudgelled by a Curmudgeon, soon came to a second tent, under the banner 'The Chamber of Secret Zurnames', where many Lupins were planted.  And a goodwife came out, and said 'If you would pass this way, you must also Combine', and handed him the Golden Glue of Continence, and pointed him at the Lupins.  And when Newby had glued all he could, the goodwife quoth 'Go on with my blessing, and keep the Glue, for it will bring you much brevity'.

And Newby continued to the North, avoiding the poltergeists, who pelted him with jokes about Texas.  And he came to a third tent, under a banner which proclaimed 'The Prison Ward', where the frost and moss covered the ground as a hairnet.  And a Ford Anglia came out (you must remember, this was my grandmother's day), and said 'If you would pass this way, you must make your subject fit your topic', and he gave him the Ivory Tippex of Concord, and pointed him at the frost and moss.  And when Newby had Tippexed all that would be Tippexed, the car said 'Go on with my blessing, and keep the Tippex, for it will give others relief'.

And Newby set himself Northward, avoiding the attentions of a goat that brayed with laughter, and presently found himself by a fourth tent, where glittered a banner inscribed 'The Barbecue Aflame', and a beautiful princess did prevent him, saying 'If you would pass this way, you must neither chatter nor chat, unless it be on Chatter, or Chat', and she gave him the Megaphone of Inconsequence.  And when Newby had shouted himself hoarse, she said 'Go on with my blessing, and keep the Megaphone, for it will amuse us all'.

And yet again Newby took up his journey, and, passing those who sing strange songs to familiar tunes, was soon in sight of the fifth tent, whose banner proclaimed 'The Order of the Sphynx', and all about were spun gossamer webs of dreams that had been cut to pieces.  And sallied forth a Lady sterner than any before, and said 'If you would pass this way, you must learn to Spell', and she handed him the Wiggly Red Wand of Orthography, and pointed him at the woven dreams.  And when he had waved the wand, and spelled many long and polysyllabic spellings, she said 'Go on with my blessing, and keep the Wand, for it will speed the passage of many'.

And so Newby - but I can tell you are impatient to know the end of this tale, and will only say that at the sixth tent a Maiden enjoined that he should use the special marks of SHIP and FF, and gave him the Rubber Stamp of Warning, with the blessing that it would prevent boredom.  The banner I will not tell you, for you can make it up yourselves - indeed, I see that many of you already have, as you Schnoogle in your Alleys.  And he went his way, passing a lake on which were ships engaged in ceaseless strife.

So, coming at last to the seventh tent, with a banner clearer and yet more obscure than any before, planted about with Ebony, and with a Pole standing by.  Newby heard a sound as of a child crying, and saw a Mother emerge from the tent, carrying a basket of magic almonds like unto the one the beldame had given him at first.  And she said 'If you would enjoy the land, and dwell in prosperity, flame not your brother, and speak not of the forbidden things', and she gave him the Fizzy Fire Extinguisher of Peace.  And she gave him the magic almonds too, and said 'Now restore the North that is lost'.  And Newby took the N that was in the magic almonds, and took it to the Pole.  And to his amazement he saw it was not a Pole but a Post, and quick-witted dreamer that he was, he took it, and posted it.

And he turned and gazed at the magicalmods, and said <delurks>.

My grandmother always insisted that there is a profound and compelling moral to this tale, but I have long ago forgotten it.  Make of it what you will, for it is meaningless to me.

David
-- 




__________________________________________________________________
Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop at Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/

Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/




From heidit at netbox.com  Tue Feb 26 22:28:17 2002
From: heidit at netbox.com (heidi tandy)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 14:28:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Those nutty mods
In-Reply-To: <42D3123C.4ACE88AD.6E93A4F5@netscape.net>
Message-ID: <20020226222817.43840.qmail@web9507.mail.yahoo.com>


--- dfrankiswork at netscape.net wrote:
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "voicelady"
> <voicelady at m...> wrote:
> > John wrote:  "...[snip of mods & elves e-mail addy
> and then:] 
> > ... or magicalmods at y... (Mods only)..."
> > 
> > Okay, does my mind work in very strange ways, or
> did anyone else wonder for a split second why the
> mods chose as their e-mail address "magic almonds"?
David wrote:
> On his way to the market, what should happen but
> that he should meet a beldame with a blackberry in
> her hair, 

Why did she have a wireless email & schedule device in
her hair?



=====
heidi tandySome people fear death; I fear literalists. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/style/columns/tellmeaboutit/A38865-2001Jun7.html)http://www.schnoogle.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Greetings - Send FREE e-cards for every occasion!
http://greetings.yahoo.com



From moongirlk at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 26 23:11:04 2002
From: moongirlk at yahoo.com (moongirlk)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 23:11:04 -0000
Subject: Accented English
In-Reply-To: <b4.7289fc5.29ac530d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <a5h4m9+ml28@eGroups.com>

What a fun thread!

Tabouli, in her always-interesting way, said:

<<The continental Europeans in general got very stroppy indeed about 
being taken for Americans. I was always assumed to be American as 
well, of course, but as someone from an English-speaking country I 
was prepared to be tolerant and correct them with minimal tooth-
grinding.
[Of course, I'm probably not a good example, as I've had people 
guessing my nationality around the world for decades. I used to keep 
a list of all the countries people had guessed me to be from, which 
include Mexico, Greece, Iran and Russia, among many many others (my 
list got up to about 62 countries)]>>

Wow!  62 countries is pretty impressive.  I had one nice shopkeeper 
in Brussels go through about 7 different nationalities on me (also 
including Russia and Greece, strangely enough).  When finally I 
reverted to English and told him I was an American he at first 
thought I was kidding.  Does it say something terrible about me that 
I was thoroughly pleased?  But since then I have most often been 
mistaken for Russian.  I don't know anyone from Russia, so I can't 
compare myself very well, but I do have the same red cheeks as Irina 
Slutskaya; maybe that's it.  

As for accents, in English I always thought I had a reasonably 
neutral midwest American accent, but there are odd bits thrown in 
from who-knows-where.  I say "come with", and also sometimes "used to 
could".  Both of these seem to have come from nowhere, and are not, 
as far as I know, commonly used in the St. Louis area.  I think I'm 
very suggestible, language-wise.  I know I am in my second language.  
When I returned from studying in Brussels, my Belgian professor 
laughed at me, saying I had the most Belgian-accented French of 
anyone he'd ever encountered who didn't grow up there.  In grad 
school I was with a lot of French-French speakers, and drifted more 
in that direction.  Then at my job I ended up spending a lot of time 
on the phone with Canadian-French speakers, and went more nasal, if 
not quite Quebecois.  Now I recently returned from 3 months in 
Mauritius, and I picked up a couple of their Creole aspects, along 
with a more French-French lean to my accent again.  I don't drift 
around nearly so much in English, but I expect that's normal with a 
native language.  

There *is* something that can be identified as a St. Louis accent, 
though, and it's always seemed pretty unique to the area to me.  Can 
anyone tell me if there's another English accent in which words 
like "fork" come out as "fark"?  It's a well-know (to St. Louisans, 
anyway) joke about St. Louis, and I've never heard anyone else speak 
that way.  My mother, strangely enough, sometimes does that, but 
*also* says "cordigan" instead of "cardigan".  A reverse of the usual 
accent.

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., Indyfans at a... wrote:
> In a message dated 2/25/02 9:04:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
> nesbitaa at p... writes:
> 
> << 
>>  Back on the topic of accents, has anyone ever heard of a central 
>>  Indiana accent?  Being from Indianapolis, I'm convinced that   
>>there 
>>  isn't one.  Folks from northern Indiana tend to have a Chicago-
>>style accent, and those from southern Indiana have an almost 
>>Kentucky 
>>  accent.  I fear I may have colorless speech!!
>>  
>>  -Abby >>

> Abby, we are originally from Indy, and I know what you mean about 
the 
> Northern and Southern parts of Indiana and their accents!!  Central 
IN is 
> pretty darn normal, meaning you could read the news on ABC without 
taking 
> speech lessons!   

Supposedly that is the part of the midwest that USAmerican 
broadcasters shoot for accent-wise, or so I've heard.  Works for 
Letterman, I guess!

> There are just a few very mild  Indy twangs ...and I miss 
> them!! 
>                      Hoosier Hugs, 
>                       Jen


Here's another interesting (ahem) St. Louis fact.  For some reason in 
this area, unlike anywhere else I've ever heard of, "hoosier" is used 
as a semi-derogatory term sort of like what I generally hear termed 
in other areas as a "red-neck".  I don't know how that came about.  
Anyone ever heard this before?

Mahoney, the Iowa-luver, said:

<<I think that Iowa is the US's best kept secret, really....>>

I'm glad to hear it - my niece is currently in college in Iowa.  I 
often think the same about Missouri (hi neighbor to the north!).  
It's really kinda pretty around here, and we get the full complement 
of seasons - I like that.  

Evil Flame wrote:
<<*chuckles* On a related note, being from Texas, I get the horse 
comment a lot. (I've probably been on a horse a hand full of times in 
my life.)>>

I travelled with a friend from Texas once.  I guess Dallas was still 
being shown on French TV at the time, because when my friend told an 
older couple we were talking to on the train that she was from Texas, 
the man exclaimed "George Bush Texas!", and the woman wanted to know 
if she lived in a house like the one on the tv show.  When we 
disappointed her by not being rich and ostentatious, she wanted to 
know if my friend was a cowgirl.  When we disappointed her yet again, 
she didn't have much use for us anymore.

I did, however, meet an Aussie guy and a Canadian guy on different 
portions of that trip - both in Italy.  The Canadian's accent (from 
BC) was indistinguishable from mine - we spent awhile trying to 
figure that out when my Texan friend pointed it out.  Can anyone tell 
me what a "normal" BC-area accent ought to be?  We weren't sure which 
of us was weird.  The Aussie was from Adelaide.  I admit to not 
having thought much about varying Australian accents, so to this day 
his is the Australian accent I hear in my head - especially since my 
friends and I exchanged audio-tapes with him and his buddies for a 
couple of years after that, each of us thinking the others were extra-
sexy for having American/Australian accents, until eventually he 
started dating a jealous girl who nixed our communication.  So 
Tabouli and Sean - how typical is Adelaide, accent-wise?  

Kimberly
learning loads of interesting stuff on OTChatter!




From s_ings at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 26 23:56:55 2002
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 18:56:55 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Shoes indoors
In-Reply-To: <a5gnii+8i4l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20020226235655.85873.qmail@web14610.mail.yahoo.com>


--- davewitley <dfrankiswork at netscape.net> wrote:
> I think there is also a change in attitude about
> hygiene.  Floors are 
> gradually moving in status from being an extension
> of the dirty 
> outside to being part of the clean house.  For
> people who have pets, 
> there is only so far you can take this.  We have
> some way to go 
> before it will be normal to be comfortable about
> eating a morsel of 
> food that has fallen on the floor, but we may get
> there.
> 
LOL. We have the 'six second' rule in our house. If
it's on the floor for less than 6 seconds it's still
safe to eat. Longer than that and it either goes in
the garbage or we feed it to the cats, whichever is
most appropriate. I don't know where the rule came
from, but my husband has been using it for as long as
I've known him. He's a cook, I wonder if they do this
at work....?

Sheryll, who knows that the cats can get to food on
the floor faster than she can

=====
"We need to be united and strong. We'll have losses and scares, sure. And you'll be there for each other, helping each other through the bad times."
 blpurdom - Harry Potter and the Psychic Serpent, Chapter 26

______________________________________________________________________ 
Find, Connect, Date! http://personals.yahoo.ca



From s_ings at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 27 00:00:08 2002
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 19:00:08 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Those nutty mods
In-Reply-To: <42D3123C.4ACE88AD.6E93A4F5@netscape.net>
Message-ID: <20020227000009.17591.qmail@web14602.mail.yahoo.com>


--- dfrankiswork at netscape.net wrote:
<snip excellent fairy tale>

Now that I've picked myself up off the floor and
dusted myself off.... OMG that was soooo funny!
Methinks you have too much time on your hands at the
moment. Sure you don't want to start writing some
serious fanfic?

Sheryll, still chuckling

=====
"We need to be united and strong. We'll have losses and scares, sure. And you'll be there for each other, helping each other through the bad times."
 blpurdom - Harry Potter and the Psychic Serpent, Chapter 26

______________________________________________________________________ 
Find, Connect, Date! http://personals.yahoo.ca



From cindysphynx at comcast.net  Wed Feb 27 01:28:34 2002
From: cindysphynx at comcast.net (cindysphynx)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 01:28:34 -0000
Subject: Shoes indoors
In-Reply-To: <a5h0g7+bv21@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a5hco2+ksit@eGroups.com>

> Michelle opined:
> 
> >I hate shoes and socks
> >with a passion. I cannot bear tights and will only wear fishnets 
if 
> >I absolutely have to look feminine. 
 
Amy added:

> Taking off my stockings is such a high point of the day that it's 
> almost worth it to wear the things just to have the Ahhhhhh of 
taking 
> them off.  However, the even better part is then putting on wool 
> socks.  I love going barefoot best, but my feet are apt to be cold 
in 
> all but the warmest weather.
month 
> of the year*

I guess someone has to be the resident freak around here, so where 
do I sign up?

I'm wearing shoes at home *right now*.  In fact, they are clogs, so 
I could easily move my feet 8 inches and they'd be off my feet.  But 
then I'd feel . . . well . . . kinda naked.  So the shoes stay on.  
If I go to someone's house, I quietly observe whether anyone over 
the age of 1 is wearing shoes.  If not, I disrobe, I mean, remove my 
shoes.  

I don't own a pair of slippers.  Every few years, someone gives me 
slippers, and I quietly donate them to charity.  I walk around in 
socks for the few waking moments each day I am not wearing shoes of 
some sort.  Slippers are for hospitals.

I like tights a lot.  I can imagine that I have Halle Berry's legs 
if I wear a pair of tights.  I don't like stockings because they 
run, which causes helpful people to come up and say, "Do you know 
you have a run in your stockings?"  I always want to reply, "Yes, 
but I'm a bag lady, so it's OK."

Cindy (who is also wearing a jacket inside right now, even though it 
is a rather warm day)




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Wed Feb 27 01:36:50 2002
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catorman)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 01:36:50 -0000
Subject: Shoes indoors
In-Reply-To: <a5hco2+ksit@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a5hd7i+s51a@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "cindysphynx" <cindysphynx at c...> wrote:
> I guess someone has to be the resident freak around here, so where 
> do I sign up?
> 
> I'm wearing shoes at home *right now*.  In fact, they are clogs, so 
> I could easily move my feet 8 inches and they'd be off my feet.  
But 
> then I'd feel . . . well . . . kinda naked.  So the shoes stay on.  
> If I go to someone's house, I quietly observe whether anyone over 
> the age of 1 is wearing shoes.  If not, I disrobe, I mean, remove 
my 
> shoes.  
> 
> I don't own a pair of slippers.  Every few years, someone gives me 
> slippers, and I quietly donate them to charity.  I walk around in 
> socks for the few waking moments each day I am not wearing shoes of 
> some sort.  Slippers are for hospitals.
> 
> I like tights a lot.  I can imagine that I have Halle Berry's legs 
> if I wear a pair of tights.  I don't like stockings because they 
> run, which causes helpful people to come up and say, "Do you know 
> you have a run in your stockings?"  I always want to reply, "Yes, 
> but I'm a bag lady, so it's OK."
> 
> Cindy (who is also wearing a jacket inside right now, even though 
it 
> is a rather warm day)

Thank god I'm not the only one!  I am one of those people, who in my 
own home, doesn't own slippers (hate the things - and they are 
slippery, and therefore a health hazard).  Instead, I have a very old 
pair of loafers which are very comfortable, and which I can wear in 
the house easily, because I can kick them off and put my feet up on 
the bed/ sofa without impunity.

I also hate being told to take my shoes off in other people's houses -
makes me feel like a child, when parents used to tell us to do so if 
we'd been making mud pies or something outside in the garden.  I also 
hate sitting in Japenese restaurants where they have a shoes off 
policy - you have to be very careful about who you want to eat 
sashimi with in this situation...

Catherine




From skelkins at attbi.com  Wed Feb 27 02:08:34 2002
From: skelkins at attbi.com (ssk7882)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 02:08:34 -0000
Subject: Stockings and Tights (WAS: Shoes Indoors)
In-Reply-To: <a5hco2+ksit@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a5hf32+841e@eGroups.com>

Cindy said:

> I like tights a lot.  I can imagine that I have Halle Berry's legs 
> if I wear a pair of tights.  I don't like stockings because they 
> run, which causes helpful people to come up and say, "Do you know 
> you have a run in your stockings?"  I always want to reply, "Yes, 
> but I'm a bag lady, so it's OK."

Okay, I just had to weigh in here.  I *hate* tights.  Tights,
stockings, panty-hose...as far as I'm concerned they're all
demon-sent to torment me.

I have long legs, you see.  And the thing about the people who make 
tights and hose is, they don't really believe that women are 
*allowed* to have long legs.  Or they think that if women *do* have 
long legs, then they must be really really *thick* legs as well.

In practice, what this means is that I have two choices when
it comes to hose.  I can go for the largest "normal size" 
available, in which case the crotch will come up to about mid-thigh
on me, forcing me to waddle around like a duck; or I can go for
something in the special "larger sizes," in which case not only will 
I have just paid twice the price for something that will only last a
week before it gets a run in it anyway, but there will also be
all of this extra nylon material pooling around my ankles and
knees and folded up in creases along my calves, making me look 
a bit like an elephant, or possibly just like someone with a very
unusual skin condition.

When I lived in New York City and had a straight job that required
such garb, I used to buy all of my panty-hose at this shop in the
West Village that catered to transvestites and transsexuals.  It cost 
me a fortune, true, but at least the stuff actually *fit.*

Outside of NYC, it's harder to find such shops.  So when I absolutely
*have* to wear something stocking-like on my legs, I'm forced to 
resort to stockings.  You know, stockings?  The old-fashioned kind?  
The kind that hook to a garter belt?  Which *does* have the advantage 
that it makes me feel vaguely naughty, but which is also a royal 
pain, to tell you the truth, because garter belts just aren't in the 
least bit comfortable to sit around in all day at a desk.

And the weird thing about all this is that I'm not even all that tall.
I'm only five foot *eight,* for crying out loud!  And I'm not...how
to put this?  I'm not freakishly-built, or anything like that.  I'm 
not noticeably long-legged.  People don't take one look at me and say 
things like: "Wow, your legs are long."  And I'm far from skinny.  I 
am *very* far from skinny.  *Miles* from skinny, in fact.  So what 
gives with the sizing on the panty-hose?

Sheesh.  Can you tell that this is one of my personal pet peeves?

Oh, and as for shoes?  I do wear them inside, but not in my bedroom 
and not on the couch and *certainly* not on the bed.  (Does anyone 
really put their shoes up on the bed?)  But then, I have a very old
dog, not in the best of health, who has started to become a bit 
incontinent, so eating off of my floor is utterly out of the question 
these days. :(

-- Elkins





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed Feb 27 02:39:25 2002
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 02:39:25 -0000
Subject: Stockings and Tights (WAS: Shoes Indoors)
In-Reply-To: <a5hf32+841e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a5hgst+ojtp@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "ssk7882" <skelkins at a...> wrote:
.
> 
> When I lived in New York City and had a straight job that 
required
> such garb, I used to buy all of my panty-hose at this shop in the
> West Village that catered to transvestites and transsexuals.  It 
cost 
> me a fortune, true, but at least the stuff actually *fit.*
> 
> Outside of NYC, it's harder to find such shops.  So when I 
absolutely *have* to wear something stocking-like on my legs, 
I'm forced to resort to stockings.

I understand such things can be ordered online and are growing 
more popular since non-transvestite males have taken to 
wearing such things for warmth or support, at least according to 
the Wall Street Journal. They suggest shapings.com which has 
European sizes. 

Pippin
whose Mother had two rules

1. No swearing
2. No shoes on the bed






From pennylin at swbell.net  Wed Feb 27 05:05:24 2002
From: pennylin at swbell.net (plinsenmayer)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 05:05:24 -0000
Subject: David's Very Excellent Fairy Tale & Hose/Tights
In-Reply-To: <a5hco2+ksit@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a5hpek+5ij4@eGroups.com>

Hi all --

David, are you on a business trip away from your family?  I think you
mentioned something about having too much time on your hands.  All I
can say is: you need to have too much time on your hands more often.
I thought the Fairy Tale was hysterical (I also agree with your latest
Snape musings but haven't had time to do a main list post .... I told
you we'd eventually agree on *something*!).  Still chuckling over that
fairy tale & wondering if Bryce would in any manner "get it" or if
he'd just roll his eyes.

> > Michelle opined:
> >
> > >I hate shoes and socks
> > >with a passion. I cannot bear tights and will only wear fishnets
> if I absolutely have to look feminine.
>
> Amy added:
>
> > Taking off my stockings is such a high point of the day that it's
> > almost worth it to wear the things just to have the Ahhhhhh of
> taking> them off.  However, the even better part is then putting on
wool> socks.  I love going barefoot best, but my feet are apt to be
cold in  all but the warmest weather.

As I said earlier, I avoid shoes at all costs.  I run around barefoot
in the summer & in socks most of the rest of the year (it's not so
cold here even in winter but my feet are *always* ice-cold except in
our hot summer months).

As for tights & stockings, I like tights just fine.  They *do* do
wonderful things for one's legs as Cindy mentions.  I wouldn't wear
them around the house ... but I do wear them out.

As for hose (we call it (them?) hose here, don't we Amanda?), I *hate*
them.  I agree Elkins -- the sizing is just hideously wrong.  I don't
have the long legs problem (understatement) but have a terrible time
finding the right fit.  I've also been known to put a runner in 4
pairs all before leaving the house.  Happiest days of my life were
when my company announced business casual attire (no more hose!) and
later, when I quit working in corporate America.  I loathe hose.

Penny
(who thinks it must be a record that she's posted to OT-Chatter 3
times in one day)





From nethilia at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 27 05:35:31 2002
From: nethilia at yahoo.com (Tasha--Nethilia)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 21:35:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Pop? 
In-Reply-To: <1014738573.555.20337.m12@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20020227053531.94832.qmail@web14609.mail.yahoo.com>

> Weeell, I grew up in South Dakota, and once I got
> out into the world a 
> bit, I used to be teased mercilessly for using the
> same verbal 
> construction.  "Wanna come with?"  Makes perfect
> sense to me!  Like 
> referring to carbonated beverages as "pop."  I mean,
> really, what else 
> would you say? :)

I call them all Coke. Orange coke, Grape coke, Pepsi
coke. Drove a cousin of mine crazy. 

cousin: "What do you want?" 

Me: "orange coke."

cousin: "Coke only comes in diet and normal."

Me: "Does not!" *reach into fridge and pull out Minute
Maid* "See! Orange coke!" 

cousin: O_o That's not a coke! That's orange pop! 

Me: It's an Orange coke. It's fizzy and carbonated,
thus coke. 

cousin: *sigh of frustration* 

Then again, I drove her crazy when she told me to give
her a pop and I smacked her. That's what pop to me is.


--Neth 

=====
--Nethilia de Lobo--
79% obsessed with Harry Potter
Wand: Dragon Heartstring, Ash, 7 inches
**Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus.**

http://www.geocities.com/spenecial
Spenecial.com. Two girls. One Website. Total Chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Greetings - Send FREE e-cards for every occasion!
http://greetings.yahoo.com



From saintbacchus at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 27 05:53:59 2002
From: saintbacchus at yahoo.com (saintbacchus)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 05:53:59 -0000
Subject: Music and accents
Message-ID: <a5hs9n+ehg9@eGroups.com>

Sean:
<<
Finally a kindred spirit! I'm obviously not the only
one to be severely addicted to any music from Square
games (puts on the soundtrack of Secret of Mana _again_).

I'm also a seriously batty collector of novelty songs. I
defy anyone to listen to Fish Heads and not feel a warm
glow for humanity.
>>

Okay, now I'm scared! I love novelty songs, too - springs
from a record full of them being my favorite in my parents'
LP collection. Fish Heads in particular has a special place
on my playlist. *G*


Kristin:
<<
If you were in Albuquerque you would be correct in saying
we have no accent. In fact there's a study (of which I
can't remember the name) that tracked accents/dialects
through out the US. The study found that Albuquerque had no 
discernable accent compared to the rest of the country.
>>

Wow...as a matter of fact, I was in Albuquerque, visiting my
aunt's sister. It sounds like a fascinating study - I'd love
to get my hands on it! No accent in Albuquerque, huh? I 
wonder why that is.

Oh, and people in Chicago have an accent. It's nasal, like
Wisconsin's; a guy in Albuquerque actually guessed I was
from that area.




From jenP_97 at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 27 05:56:44 2002
From: jenP_97 at yahoo.com (jenP_97)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 05:56:44 -0000
Subject: Just thought I'd share a Ginger-ism...
Message-ID: <a5hses+ehb3@eGroups.com>

Whew.

I had a horrible, sleepless night last night, and was so 
tired that I fell asleep TWICE during my daughter's "educational" 
tv programs this morning.  TWICE before 10am.  Man.  What a 
nightmare.  Anyway, we all had a 2.5 hour nap this afternoon, and 
now I feel much better (although not very sleepy... insomnia is a
VICIOUS cycle).  (hrm. Sorry 'bout all the caps tonight)

So tonight at about 8pm, my husband says to Ginger, "Okay........"

Ginger: "No! No! No! No!" while running around the room trying to 
avoid him... she obviously thinks it's bedtime already (her bedtime 
is 8:30)
hubby: "Let's see how fast we can make cookies!"

Ginger gets this funny look on her face.  She's shocked, really, and 
it makes me laugh.  So she starts laughing, and runs into the kitchen
saying, "I want to help!"  Hubby was very tolerant, and let her 
measure things and lick a beater.  So sue us - we're not worried 
about raw eggs... but I digress.

So the cookies go into the oven, and Ginger is very messy (you know,
cookie dough mixed with saliva running down her chest (she's a nudist
at heart, I think), flour in her hair, etc), so I say, "Looks like
somebody needs a bath.  Me! Me! Me!"

Ginger: "No, ME!"

Me: "Just kidding... go take your diaper off"  (have I mentioned 
before that I'm despairing of EVER getting this kid to use the
potty???)

So we take a bath, and all is going well... and here's the funny 
part.  Ginger makes some bubbles "the natural way", and says to me in
this mini-philosopher's voice:

"Mommy?  Why do people ALWAYS fart in the bathtub?"



Jen (who thinks she'll make that her .sig from now on...)




From ganvira at earthlink.net  Wed Feb 27 08:31:56 2002
From: ganvira at earthlink.net (Terry van Ettinger)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 00:31:56 -0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Just thought I'd share a Ginger-ism...
References: <a5hses+ehb3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <020e01c1bf69$37b27c80$0797cd18@charterpipeline.com>

I know this is a one-liner.......but all I can say is, That was Classic!!
Sounds like something a child character from my roleplay group might say.

Terry
----- Original Message -----
From: "jenP_97" <jenP_97 at yahoo.com>
To: <HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2002 9:56 PM
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Just thought I'd share a Ginger-ism...


> Whew.
>
> I had a horrible, sleepless night last night, and was so
> tired that I fell asleep TWICE during my daughter's "educational"
> tv programs this morning.  TWICE before 10am.  Man.  What a
> nightmare.  Anyway, we all had a 2.5 hour nap this afternoon, and
> now I feel much better (although not very sleepy... insomnia is a
> VICIOUS cycle).  (hrm. Sorry 'bout all the caps tonight)
>
> So tonight at about 8pm, my husband says to Ginger, "Okay........"
>
> Ginger: "No! No! No! No!" while running around the room trying to
> avoid him... she obviously thinks it's bedtime already (her bedtime
> is 8:30)
> hubby: "Let's see how fast we can make cookies!"
>
> Ginger gets this funny look on her face.  She's shocked, really, and
> it makes me laugh.  So she starts laughing, and runs into the kitchen
> saying, "I want to help!"  Hubby was very tolerant, and let her
> measure things and lick a beater.  So sue us - we're not worried
> about raw eggs... but I digress.
>
> So the cookies go into the oven, and Ginger is very messy (you know,
> cookie dough mixed with saliva running down her chest (she's a nudist
> at heart, I think), flour in her hair, etc), so I say, "Looks like
> somebody needs a bath.  Me! Me! Me!"
>
> Ginger: "No, ME!"
>
> Me: "Just kidding... go take your diaper off"  (have I mentioned
> before that I'm despairing of EVER getting this kid to use the
> potty???)
>
> So we take a bath, and all is going well... and here's the funny
> part.  Ginger makes some bubbles "the natural way", and says to me in
> this mini-philosopher's voice:
>
> "Mommy?  Why do people ALWAYS fart in the bathtub?"
>
>
>
> Jen (who thinks she'll make that her .sig from now on...)
>
>
>
> ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________
>
> Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the group's Admin Files!
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/
>
> Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material
from posts to which you're replying!
>
> Is your message...
> An announcement of merchandise, news etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements.
> Movie-related? Send it to HPFGU-Movie.
> Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups.
> None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter.
> Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods --
MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com
>
> Unsubscribing? Email HPFGU-OTChatter-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
> ____________________________________________________________
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>




From ganvira at earthlink.net  Wed Feb 27 08:34:44 2002
From: ganvira at earthlink.net (Terry van Ettinger)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 00:34:44 -0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Music and accents
References: <a5hs9n+ehg9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <021701c1bf69$9c030740$0797cd18@charterpipeline.com>

On the subject of Albuquerque having no discernable accent, maybe it has to
do with the fact that its people perhaps come from all sorts of places, so
what comes out is just a generic sort of sound that just mixes it all
together.

Terry




From ganvira at earthlink.net  Wed Feb 27 08:40:57 2002
From: ganvira at earthlink.net (Terry van Ettinger)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 00:40:57 -0800
Subject: Translation?
References: <20020227053531.94832.qmail@web14609.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <023601c1bf6a$8dfa1520$0797cd18@charterpipeline.com>

**Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus.**

OK...I think that's supposed to be something like "sleeping dragons never
....."  Not sure what the last part is though; I thought perhaps something
about shining...but that would be scinti-..., wouldn't it?  My Latin
knowledge is *real* limited.

Terry





From kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk  Wed Feb 27 08:56:52 2002
From: kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk (Kathryn)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 08:56:52 -0000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Translation?
References: <20020227053531.94832.qmail@web14609.mail.yahoo.com> <023601c1bf6a$8dfa1520$0797cd18@charterpipeline.com>
Message-ID: <008a01c1bf6c$b45929c0$092786d9@monica>

Never Tickle a Sleeping Dragon (I believe)

K
If an advisor says to me "My liege, he is but one man. What can one man possibly do?", I will reply "This." and kill the advisor.
http://minievil.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Terry van Ettinger 
  To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2002 8:40 AM
  Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Translation?


  **Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus.**

  OK...I think that's supposed to be something like "sleeping dragons never
  ....."  Not sure what the last part is though; I thought perhaps something
  about shining...but that would be scinti-..., wouldn't it?  My Latin
  knowledge is *real* limited.

  Terry



        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
              ADVERTISEMENT
             
       
       

  ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________

  Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the group's Admin Files!
  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/

  Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying!

  Is your message...
  An announcement of merchandise, news etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements.
  Movie-related? Send it to HPFGU-Movie.
  Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups.
  None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter.
  Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com

  Unsubscribing? Email HPFGU-OTChatter-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
  ____________________________________________________________


  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From macloudt at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Feb 27 10:15:52 2002
From: macloudt at yahoo.co.uk (macloudt)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 10:15:52 -0000
Subject: Just thought I'd share a Ginger-ism...
In-Reply-To: <a5hses+ehb3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a5ibko+f8ja@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "jenP_97" <jenP_97 at y...> wrote:

> Me: "Just kidding... go take your diaper off"  (have I mentioned 
> before that I'm despairing of EVER getting this kid to use the
> potty???)

Don't dispair!  I felt the same way about Gareth 'til just before 
Christmas.  This boy, who will be 4 in March, didn't want to know 
anything about potty-training.  I mean I had visions of him doing his 
A-levels in Pull-ups!  DH and I gave up long ago trying to get him to 
use the toilet as he would purposely defy us, so we left it up to 
Nature.  Well, Nature only got off its backend in December, when 
Sonny Dearest was 3 3/4.  It *will* happen...it just might take a 
while.  Oh, and the wait *was* worth it, as his daytime control is 
really good.
 
> So we take a bath, and all is going well... and here's the funny 
> part.  Ginger makes some bubbles "the natural way", and says to me 
in this mini-philosopher's voice:
> 
> "Mommy?  Why do people ALWAYS fart in the bathtub?"

ROTFLMAO!!  Oh, the joy kids provide when they don't have adult hang-
ups yet.  By the way, what was your answer? :)

Mary Ann
(she of the big muscles)




From s_ings at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 27 13:03:16 2002
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 08:03:16 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Stockings and Tights (WAS: Shoes Indoors)
In-Reply-To: <a5hf32+841e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20020227130316.81427.qmail@web14608.mail.yahoo.com>


--- ssk7882 <skelkins at attbi.com> wrote:
> Okay, I just had to weigh in here.  I *hate* tights.
>  Tights,
> stockings, panty-hose...as far as I'm concerned
> they're all
> demon-sent to torment me.
> 
> I have long legs, you see.  And the thing about the
> people who make 
> tights and hose is, they don't really believe that
> women are 
> *allowed* to have long legs.  Or they think that if
> women *do* have 
> long legs, then they must be really really *thick*
> legs as well.
> 
> In practice, what this means is that I have two
> choices when
> it comes to hose.  I can go for the largest "normal
> size" 
> available, in which case the crotch will come up to
> about mid-thigh
> on me, forcing me to waddle around like a duck; or I
> can go for
> something in the special "larger sizes," in which
> case not only will 
> I have just paid twice the price for something that
> will only last a
> week before it gets a run in it anyway, but there
> will also be
> all of this extra nylon material pooling around my
> ankles and
> knees and folded up in creases along my calves,
> making me look 
> a bit like an elephant, or possibly just like
> someone with a very
> unusual skin condition.

Thank God I'm not the only who suffers like this! You
know it was a man who decided there should be such
thing as 'one size fits all' pantyhose. No woman in
her right mind would think we all wear the same size. 

I'm 5'9, but I have long legs and wear a 34" inseam.
Not only does this mean I'm reduced to wearing queen
size (who thought up that term?) pantyhose, but it
plays havoc in buying pants, especially jeans. What
moron working for the jeans manufacturers decided to
eliminate the 34" inseam from their stock? I went
jeans shopping before Christmas, to the one place I've
always been able to find my size and.... nope, not any
more. Add to this the fact that I've put on weight.
Hmmm.... no, not allowed to be large with long legs
either.
> 
> When I lived in New York City and had a straight job
> that required
> such garb, I used to buy all of my panty-hose at
> this shop in the
> West Village that catered to transvestites and
> transsexuals.  It cost 
> me a fortune, true, but at least the stuff actually
> *fit.*

I wish we had somewhere like that here. I've talked to
many drag queens, but they all shop the same places I
do. 
> 
> Outside of NYC, it's harder to find such shops.  So
> when I absolutely
> *have* to wear something stocking-like on my legs,
> I'm forced to 
> resort to stockings.  You know, stockings?  The
> old-fashioned kind?  
> The kind that hook to a garter belt?  Which *does*
> have the advantage 
> that it makes me feel vaguely naughty, but which is
> also a royal 
> pain, to tell you the truth, because garter belts
> just aren't in the 
> least bit comfortable to sit around in all day at a
> desk.

I've tried that. Seems I still have the same problem.
Most times the stockings barely come a few inches
above the knee, and certainly never high enough to
attach them to garters without first ripping my foot
through the bottom of them!
> 
<snip> 
> Sheesh.  Can you tell that this is one of my
> personal pet peeves?

Yup. And it's one of mine as well. :D
> 
Sheryll, done ranting and now in search of another coffee

=====
"We need to be united and strong. We'll have losses and scares, sure. And you'll be there for each other, helping each other through the bad times."
 blpurdom - Harry Potter and the Psychic Serpent, Chapter 26

______________________________________________________________________ 
Find, Connect, Date! http://personals.yahoo.ca



From s_ings at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 27 13:14:39 2002
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 08:14:39 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Just thought I'd share a Ginger-ism...
In-Reply-To: <a5hses+ehb3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20020227131439.47513.qmail@web14601.mail.yahoo.com>


--- jenP_97 <jenP_97 at yahoo.com> wrote:
<snip Ginger story>

Oh, Jen, that was priceless. I love it when you share
your Ginger-isms with us. Give her some hugs and
remember she's welcome to come and visit snow here
anytime.

The only child-related thing that's happened here
lately is a call from one of Nyssa's teachers
wondering why she's missed so many classes. Don't ask
me! The schools, in their wisdom, decided that 18 year
old students don't need parental permission to sign
themselves out. So why are they calling the parents
asking questions about attendance? 

Sheryll

=====
"We need to be united and strong. We'll have losses and scares, sure. And you'll be there for each other, helping each other through the bad times."
 blpurdom - Harry Potter and the Psychic Serpent, Chapter 26

______________________________________________________________________ 
Find, Connect, Date! http://personals.yahoo.ca



From tabouli at unite.com.au  Wed Feb 27 13:58:07 2002
From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 00:58:07 +1100
Subject: Leggy laments: The spidery and the stumpy (girly whinge post)
Message-ID: <003d01c1bf96$f97e7b20$fb0ddccb@price>

Ahhh, body image. Time to muscle in and claim some whinge-space...

Elkins:
> I have long legs, you see.  And the thing about the people who make 
tights and hose is, they don't really believe that women are 
*allowed* to have long legs.  Or they think that if women *do* have 
long legs, then they must be really really *thick* legs as well.<

(Tabouli, who wasted endless hours of her adolescence staring mournfully at her legs in the mirror and *willing* them to grow long and slender, rummages around in her heart to find sympathy for the leggy Elkins, but emerges empty handed, and instead mounts her soap-box, standing on the very tips of her toes)

Haaaang on a minute here.  You long-legged types think you got problems, huh?  Huh?  Ha!  At least long legs are in fashion - spare a thought for us stumpy types!

How do you think we stumpies feel watching the spidery parade of models and actresses sashaying through our billboards and TV screens, and reading lyrical passages all over the place about long, elegant, Bambi-like limbs?  When we end up spending our life's savings on having every lower body garment we buy taken up at the hem, and suffered in silence through the very groovy fashion a few years ago for bootleg trousers with embroidery on the bottom?  When *our* pantihose fall into wrinkles around our ankles unless hitched up every 5 minutes to our armpits?  When we risk lifelong back and foot problems trying to compensate with 5" heels?  (not me, though - after a brief, wobbly flirtation, I've decided to cap my heels at 3" and wear 'em sparingly, having discovered that carefully selected clothing, long boots and backless shoes give illusory length without bodily damage and wobbling).

I think the real problem here is that the system they used to set the standard sizing in women's clothing is, as I read somewhere, based on just post WW2 statistics and no longer anywhere near accurate.  At the time, women were shorter and thinner and carried their weight differently, presumably because of diet.  Another problem is that women's body shapes vary considerably more than men's do, thus making it harder to mass-produce a series of appropriate sizes.  I'm always getting things altered, because (a) I seem to range from Australian size 8 to size 12 across different parts of my body and therefore nothing ever fits off the rack, and (b) I'm vain and finicky enough to spend money on making my clothes fit properly (!).

Interestingly, after a visit to France my supervisor commented that the French seem to make clothes for the shape women really are, not some strange non-existent ideal.  Musing on the French stereotypes I know of, this isn't too surprising, though I'm interested to hear denial or further confirmation of this from European listmembers!  When visiting Asia, I suddenly went from an Australian small to medium to a large to extra large (I confess to flinching).  I've also been known to try on (very pretty, albeit pricey) clothing from the British chain Monsoon, only to discover time and time again that it's hopeless.  'What *shape* are those British women?'  I found myself despairing...

Of course, the worst thing of all is that so many women spend so much time and energy and misery fretting about the size and nature of their deviation from the media body ideal.  Terribly depressing.  It's enough to drive anyone to the Internet (the great leveller, where the inside's all that counts because it's all people see...)

Tabouli.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From bray.262 at osu.edu  Wed Feb 27 08:47:31 2002
From: bray.262 at osu.edu (Rachel Bray)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 08:47:31 EST5EDT
Subject: Weather or not....
Message-ID: <8D81DA4A50@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>

Monday it was 65 degrees.  I had the windows open in my 
apartment and drove with the windows down in my car.

Yesterday it started off at 48 degrees and dropped to -9 
with the wind chill last night.

This morning....my car doors were frozen shut and the wind 
chill made it 3 degrees.

I love winter in Ohio.  *long, exasperated sigh*  I guess I 
shouldn't complain.  I mean, it'll probably be in the 70's 
by Saturday.  :-/

Rachel Bray
The Ohio State University
Fees, Deposits and Disbursements


Frodo: I wish the ring had never come to me....I wish 
none of this had happened.

Gandalf: So do all who live to see such times, but that 
is not for them to decide.  All we have to decide is 
what to do with the time that is given us.



From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Wed Feb 27 13:58:55 2002
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naamagatus)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 13:58:55 -0000
Subject: Bits and Pieces (climate, shoes, floors and epileptic dogs)
Message-ID: <a5iomv+3hsd@eGroups.com>

Tabouli theorized:
>Anyway, to get to the point, I've long been convinced that cold 
>climates are much more likely to produce intellectuals and 
>highbrows. Why sit inside reading literature, drinking sophisticated 
>wines and coffees, conversing about art and politics and watching 
>arthouse films when you could be outside having a barbecue on the 
>beach?

You know, there have been anthropological theories that tried to 
explain differences in cultural development through climatic 
differences. It doesn't really work, though. Mesopotamia, Egypt, 
India ? the greatest of the early civilizations developed in warm 
climates. Even ancient Greece and Rome, two other great 
civilizations, developed in a much warmer climate than that in 
northern Europe. 
The Greeks had the right idea, by the way. Socrates wasn't sitting 
inside at all ? he was sitting outside, in the market place, quizzing 
the passersby (or else making immortal speeches while enjoying 
himself at feasts ). What a way to philosophize, huh?

David:
>My parents in law regard it as the norm to keep shoes on indoors - 
>friends of our own generation are much more likely to leave shoes by 
>the door, at home or visiting. We picked it up ourselves from 
>friends who had a fair amount of contact with the middle east, where 
>I believe keeping shoes on in the home is much worse than uncouth.

Depends a bit on what you mean by "middle east." Taking off shoes is 
mandatory before going into a mosque. Also when visiting a Bedouin 
home (the food is served on the floor so bringing in sand and dirt is 
understandably frowned upon). I don't know how it is in Arab houses, 
I'm afraid. However, In Israeli (non-Arab) homes it is definitely not 
the norm for guests to take off their shoes. You'd have to be fairly 
intimate with the hosts to do that. One of the reasons is probably 
that almost all houses have stone floors (that is, not exactly stone, 
it's a marbly kind of substance - I've no idea how it's called in 
English) and they're cold. In the winter, even the mild Israeli 
winter, the floor is too cold for walking barefoot on it, although in 
summer it's very pleasant to cool your feet on the floor.

Elkins:
>Oh, and as for shoes? I do wear them inside, but not in my bedroom 
>and not on the couch and *certainly* not on the bed. (Does anyone 
>really put their shoes up on the bed?) But then, I have a very old
>dog, not in the best of health, who has started to become a bit 
>incontinent, so eating off of my floor is utterly out of the 
question 
>these days. :(

So sorry about your dog. It must be awful to see him get old like 
this. 
Speaking of incontinence. My own dog, thankfully still young, is 
epileptic (did you know dogs get that?).  Not, the good thing is that 
His epilepsy attacks come quite far apart, about once every two 
month, so he doesn't have to take medication. The bad thing is that 
the attacks always happen when he's asleep. Now (because I haven't 
taught him any better) he sleeps mostly on the living room sofa, 
which means that every two months my sofa gets peed upon (I've heard 
that losing bladder control happens to human epileptics too). Oh, the 
stench! It takes hours to clean it up, soaking a large portion of the 
sofa in soapy water and sponging it up. 
I won't bore you with the story of how my cat peed on the same 
miserable sofa. You might be interested to know, however, that cat 
pee stinks even worse than dog pee. 

Naama







From kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk  Wed Feb 27 14:06:24 2002
From: kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk (Kathryn)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:06:24 -0000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Leggy laments: The spidery and the stumpy (girly whinge post)
References: <003d01c1bf96$f97e7b20$fb0ddccb@price>
Message-ID: <000f01c1bf97$f28edb60$c01486d9@monica>

I'm sorry but I have about as much sympathy for you long-legged types as I do for a friend of mine who spends her entire time complaining that no matter what she eats she can't put on weight.
27" inside leg here, I have found one shop, ever, that stocks jeans I can wear without needing them taken up.
And on the subject of British clothing and shapes - none of us Brits can fit into the clothing either. And just because you're one size in one shop doesn't mean you'll be the same size in a different shop. I have blouses (all of which fit) ranging from GB size 10 to 22, of course all the sleeves are too long ....
Do any of you shorties on the list have the same problem I do with chest freezers in supermarkets? If they're running short on stuff you find that in order to reach the food you have to actually take your feet off the floor - I swear I'm going to end up inside one of the freezers one of these days, grumble.

Oh and on a totally different note - Spike Milligan died this morning :(

K
If an advisor says to me "My liege, he is but one man. What can one man possibly do?", I will reply "This." and kill the advisor.
http://minievil.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Tabouli 
  To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2002 1:58 PM
  Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Leggy laments: The spidery and the stumpy (girly whinge post)


  Ahhh, body image. Time to muscle in and claim some whinge-space...

  (Tabouli, who wasted endless hours of her adolescence staring mournfully at her legs in the mirror and *willing* them to grow long and slender, rummages around in her heart to find sympathy for the leggy Elkins, but emerges empty handed, and instead mounts her soap-box, standing on the very tips of her toes)

  Haaaang on a minute here.  You long-legged types think you got problems, huh?  Huh?  Ha!  At least long legs are in fashion - spare a thought for us stumpy types!

   <snipped stuff>

  I've also been known to try on (very pretty, albeit pricey) clothing from the British chain Monsoon, only to discover time and time again that it's hopeless.  'What *shape* are those British women?'  I found myself despairing...




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From Joanne0012 at aol.com  Wed Feb 27 14:33:30 2002
From: Joanne0012 at aol.com (joanne0012)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:33:30 -0000
Subject: Bits and Pieces (climate, ..
In-Reply-To: <a5iomv+3hsd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a5iqnq+8equ@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "naamagatus" <naama_gat at h...> wrote:
> 
> You know, there have been anthropological theories that tried to 
> explain differences in cultural development through climatic 
> differences. It doesn't really work, though. Mesopotamia, Egypt, 
> India ? the greatest of the early civilizations developed in warm 
> climates. Even ancient Greece and Rome, two other great 
> civilizations, developed in a much warmer climate than that in 
> northern Europe. 

Warm climates, yes -- but not tropical. Too warm, and agriculture suffers; =
too 
cold, and everyone has to spend all their time and energy staying warm and =
fed 
-- until the technological developments of the past few centuries.  

The absolute best book about this is the (unfortunately titled, IMHO) "Guns=
, 
Germs and Steel," a Pulitzer-Prize-winning tome by Jared Diamond. He wrote =
the 
book in response to a question asked of him by a friend in New Guinea, who =

asked, basically, why white people had so much "cargo" (material goods and =

technology) while his people had so little.  He knew that it wasn't basic 
intelligence or personality traits!  Diamond wends his way through history,=
 
anthropology, climatology, and lots of other -ologies in this fascinating s=
aga, 
which ends up focusing on natural resources and agricultural dissemination.=


Tabouli has it backwards, IMHO -- northern Europeans developed very little =

culture of their own, basically being barbarians until they conquered and 
assimilated Mediterranean cultures. (For further insights, read the surpris=
ingly 
fun "How the Irish Saved Civilization.")




From cindysphynx at comcast.net  Wed Feb 27 14:37:02 2002
From: cindysphynx at comcast.net (cindysphynx)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:37:02 -0000
Subject: Leggy laments: The spidery and the stumpy (girly whinge post)
In-Reply-To: <003d01c1bf96$f97e7b20$fb0ddccb@price>
Message-ID: <a5ique+prfe@eGroups.com>

Tabouli wrote:

> Haaaang on a minute here.  You long-legged types think you got 
>problems, huh?  Huh?  Ha!  At least long legs are in fashion - 
>spare a thought for us stumpy types!
> 

OK, I just have one question here.  Why, why, why do clothing 
manufacturers assume all adult American women have narrow 
backsides?  Haven't they looked around this great land, for cryin' 
out loud?  People are aging and people are chunky.  They eat Nachos 
and donuts and too much pizza.  People are not tiny anymore.  

Yet the same thing happens to me again and again and again.  Pull 
two sizes of same pants off of rack.  Enter dressing room and strip 
in flourescent light.  Pull on larger of the two sizes.  Note *huge* 
gaps in waistband, nice fit in seat.  Pull on smaller size.  Note 
nice fit in waistband, Charro fit in seat.  Purchase larger size, 
pay money to shorten, come back in a week, cinch up excess waist 
fabric with belt, having achieved the "hillbilly" look.

Ladies, we need to rebel against this madness.  

Cindy (who looks just fine for her age, thank-you-very-much, so she 
knows she is *not* the problem here)





From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Wed Feb 27 14:46:46 2002
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (catorman)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:46:46 -0000
Subject: Spike Milligan
In-Reply-To: <000f01c1bf97$f28edb60$c01486d9@monica>
Message-ID: <a5irgm+48e1@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "Kathryn" <kcawte at k...> wrote:
> Oh and on a totally different note - Spike Milligan died this 
morning :(
> 
> K


:( indeed.  I grew up on my father's Spike/Goon ("He's fallen in the 
water!" ) impressions (they both had manic depression in common) and 
his nonsense verse - some of which I can recite to this day, and I 
have all his memoirs.

Extremely funny man.  I've particularly enjoyed his guest appearances 
on shows over the last few years - my favourite had to be seeing him 
out-talk Paul Merton (an amazing feat in itself) and try and put 
Portsmouth into Room 101.

Catherine




From kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk  Wed Feb 27 15:03:17 2002
From: kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk (Kathryn)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 15:03:17 -0000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Spike Milligan
References: <a5irgm+48e1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <002701c1bf9f$e4402980$c01486d9@monica>

Yeah, my dad's a big fan too. I'd have loved to have seen him on Room 101, must have missed that one. Nicholas Parsons was saying that there are a few comics following in his surreal footsteps, Paul Merton and Eddie Izzard were the ones he mentioned. Why did he want to get rid of Portsmouth? (Not that it's a bad idea or anything, but I am curious.)
And before anyone from Portsmouth starts throwing stuff, I confess my dad is also a Southampton lad, and a supporter of their football team and I've been indoctrinated against Portsmouth therefore. 

Actually someone quoted Spike in a presentation in my MA class just last Friday -

"The rain it raineth on the just,
And on the unjust fella,
But mainly on the just because,
The unjust steal the just's umbrella."

K
If an advisor says to me "My liege, he is but one man. What can one man possibly do?", I will reply "This." and kill the advisor.
http://minievil.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: catorman 
  To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2002 2:46 PM
  Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Spike Milligan


  --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "Kathryn" <kcawte at k...> wrote:
  > Oh and on a totally different note - Spike Milligan died this 
  morning :(
  > 
  > K


  :( indeed.  I grew up on my father's Spike/Goon ("He's fallen in the 
  water!" ) impressions (they both had manic depression in common) and 
  his nonsense verse - some of which I can recite to this day, and I 
  have all his memoirs.

  Extremely funny man.  I've particularly enjoyed his guest appearances 
  on shows over the last few years - my favourite had to be seeing him 
  out-talk Paul Merton (an amazing feat in itself) and try and put 
  Portsmouth into Room 101.

  Catherine


        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
              ADVERTISEMENT
             
       
       

  ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________

  Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the group's Admin Files!
  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/

  Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying!

  Is your message...
  An announcement of merchandise, news etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements.
  Movie-related? Send it to HPFGU-Movie.
  Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups.
  None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter.
  Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com

  Unsubscribing? Email HPFGU-OTChatter-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
  ____________________________________________________________


  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk  Wed Feb 27 15:04:43 2002
From: kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk (Kathryn)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 15:04:43 -0000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Leggy laments: The spidery and the stumpy (girly whinge post)
References: <a5ique+prfe@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <002e01c1bfa0$177c9e00$c01486d9@monica>

You don't notice guys having this problem do you? And why? Because men design all the damn clothing that's why!

K
If an advisor says to me "My liege, he is but one man. What can one man possibly do?", I will reply "This." and kill the advisor.
http://minievil.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: cindysphynx 
  To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2002 2:37 PM
  Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Leggy laments: The spidery and the stumpy (girly whinge post)


  Tabouli wrote:

  > Haaaang on a minute here.  You long-legged types think you got 
  >problems, huh?  Huh?  Ha!  At least long legs are in fashion - 
  >spare a thought for us stumpy types!
  > 

  OK, I just have one question here.  Why, why, why do clothing 
  manufacturers assume all adult American women have narrow 
  backsides?  Haven't they looked around this great land, for cryin' 
  out loud?  People are aging and people are chunky.  They eat Nachos 
  and donuts and too much pizza.  People are not tiny anymore.  

  Yet the same thing happens to me again and again and again.  Pull 
  two sizes of same pants off of rack.  Enter dressing room and strip 
  in flourescent light.  Pull on larger of the two sizes.  Note *huge* 
  gaps in waistband, nice fit in seat.  Pull on smaller size.  Note 
  nice fit in waistband, Charro fit in seat.  Purchase larger size, 
  pay money to shorten, come back in a week, cinch up excess waist 
  fabric with belt, having achieved the "hillbilly" look.

  Ladies, we need to rebel against this madness.  

  Cindy (who looks just fine for her age, thank-you-very-much, so she 
  knows she is *not* the problem here)




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From keegan at mcn.org  Wed Feb 27 15:32:37 2002
From: keegan at mcn.org (Catherine Keegan)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 07:32:37 -0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] (girly whinge post)
In-Reply-To: <002e01c1bfa0$177c9e00$c01486d9@monica>
References: <a5ique+prfe@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20020227071827.00a4b690@mail.mcn.org>

I gave up years ago.  I'm just under 5'10" and I'm big.  Not fat.  OK, 
chubby but I've got shoulders that should have belonged to a football 
player.  I've also got a long waist and long arms - something that women's 
clothing doesn't believe exists.  After years of sleeves that never came to 
my wrists and shirts that wouldn't stay tucked (I won't even begin to 
complain about women's shoes.  OK.  Just for a bit.  What sadist designs 
those things?), I gave up and began to wear men's shirts and shoes.  Most 
of the stuff really doesn't look that different.  The shirts are long 
enough.  Can't do the men's pants since I have hips and I like my pants to 
go my waist but, at least at Target, you can still get the 34" 
inseam.  Life was hell until a few years ago when some brilliant person 
discovered that people are different sizes and got into the petite, average 
(?) and tall categories.

However, there is hope for us non standard types - it just takes money.  I 
had to buy a new interview suit a few years ago and dreaded it.  DH took 
one look at the suits I pulled out of my side of the closet and asked when 
I had purchased said suits.  I blinked.  Looked at what I thought was a 
perfectly good navy blue power suit and said around '81 or so.  He sniffed 
and said that they looked like it.  Hey!  They were in great 
shape.  Programmers usually only have to wear the darn things once for the 
interview.  Grudgingly, I went to Macys and discovered that what I felt was 
horribly expensive had longer sleeves, more room in the shoulders and the 
waist was longer.  Hmmmm.  I tried a cheaper version.  Someone had stolen 
the usual two inches from the sleeves, shortened the pant legs (I, too, 
loath pantyhose and hate the way suit skirts tend to creep up) and the 
waist hit me just at the ribs, not the waist.  I went back twice before I 
could convince myself to pony up the bucks.  Darn suit was worth it.  Every 
time I've worn it, I've gotten the job and the salary I demanded.  (Of 
course, we won't mention what Y2K did to big companies in the late '90s or 
how hard it's gotten to get a job in that field now that Y2K is over...)

Wow!  I feel better already!

Catherine in California





From john at walton.vu  Wed Feb 27 16:56:22 2002
From: john at walton.vu (John Walton)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 16:56:22 +0000
Subject: Arm-y Annoyance  (guy-y whinge post)
In-Reply-To: <002e01c1bfa0$177c9e00$c01486d9@monica>
Message-ID: <B8A2C036.B557%john@walton.vu>

Kathryn wrote:

> You don't notice guys having this problem do you? And why? Because men design
> all the damn clothing that's why!

*jumps up and down, getting very irate*

I have clothing problems, and not just because I'm rather large. Despite the
fact that I can buy off-the-shelf shirts which will fit my more-than-ample
tummy, can I buy ONE shirt from ANY regular retailer which will fit my 38"
long arms? No. Neither can I find shirts *long* enough to stay tucked in if
I sit down. Instead, I have to go to a Big And Tall shop, where I take a
size 18 shirt, extra-long, with 38" arms. *growls*

--John

____________________________________________

"It's our choices that show what we truly are, far more than our
abilities." --Albus Dumbledore

John Walton || john at walton.vu
____________________________________________





From john at walton.vu  Wed Feb 27 17:09:17 2002
From: john at walton.vu (John Walton)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 17:09:17 +0000
Subject: Shoes inside?
In-Reply-To: <a5io3g+6n4u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <B8A2C33D.B55A%john@walton.vu>

naamagatus wrote:

> Depends a bit on what you mean by "middle east." Taking off shoes is
> mandatory before going into a mosque. Also when entering a Bedouin
> tent (after all, food is served on the ground sheets so bringing in
> sand and dirt is understandably considered very ill manners). I don't
> know how it is in Arab houses, though.

Depends where you are. For example, I visited a family of Palestinian
refugees just outside Ramallah (where the "house" was four
cinder-block/breeze-block walls and a corrugated iron roof). There was so
much dust around that it would have been foolish to take one's shoes off. I
also visited a Palestinian family in East Jerusalem where, because they had
*white carpets*, everyone's shoes came off at the door.

> In Israeli (non-Arab) homes however it is definitely not the norm for
> guests to take off their shoes. You'd have to be fairly intimate with
> your hosts to do that. One of the reasons is probably that almost all
> houses here have stone floors (that is, not exactly stone, it's a
> marbly kind of substance - I've no idea how it's called in English)
> which are cold. 

Yeah, I always wondered "what's wrong with *carpets*?" While we lived in
Herzliya, we rented a house which was pretty much half-carpeted, but the
living room was basically polished stone (granite?), which was LETHAL if you
weren't wearing rubber-soled shoes or going barefoot. Our cat used to go
insane chasing after things (i.e. me with a piece of string), trying to turn
a corner, skidding out and smacking into a wall/sofa/parent. I actually did
that myself once -- I remembered I'd left something downstairs and whipped
around to get it...and my feet just slipped right out from under me. Moral
of the story is that I went barefoot most of the time.

In general -- I tend to kick my shoes off as soon as I come home, but inside
my own room. I don't actually recall being anywhere other than a Thai house
where I have been asked to take my shoes off. At home, my parents tend to go
around with shoes on -- or Birkenstock sandals or something.

--John

____________________________________________

I'm tone deaf! Music means nothing to me!
It's only the way my accompanists play that make it appear I'm in key!
Stone tone deaf, can't tell a key from a clef!
            -A Word On My Ear by Donald Swann

John Walton || john at walton.vu
____________________________________________





From firefightermichelle at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 27 17:40:16 2002
From: firefightermichelle at yahoo.com (firefightermichelle)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 17:40:16 -0000
Subject: Shoes, "Where's that?" and geography
Message-ID: <a5j5m0+6p08@eGroups.com>

Hey everyone!  Just thought I'd ring in on a couple of subjects :)

I hardly ever, adn most the people I know hardly ever, put their 
shoes on their beds.  If I could, I probably wouldn't wear shoes at 
all :)  Except on Florida pavement in the summer .... shoes required 
then.  At work, we are allowed to take naps (rough isn't it?) and 
getting shoes on and off rapidly is kind of a bother, so I'll lay on 
my bed, laying on my stomach, with my boots hanging off the end.  Of 
course, if I really sat down and thought about it, I'd never wear my 
work boots in the station because really ... ick.

I was born and raised in New Zealand and moved to the states when my 
mum married a sailor ... she picked him up in a bar when his ship was 
in port :)  (20 years later they are still together :) )  Anyway, 
these days I live in Florida and no one is really FROM Florida ... 
well, there are a few, but not very many.  So often in conversation 
people will ask where each other are from.  My usual reply 
is: "Orginally or most recently?"  Of course, they ask for both and 
when I say I'm orginally from New Zealand the response I get is ... 
come on, you know what it is!  "Oh, that's in Australia right?"   
AHHHHHHH ... no, we really are our own country.  And then the 
inevitable question, what do you guys speak down there?   

My friend Sarah is a bit geographically challenged.  Until she was 
about 18, she thought North was Up.  Ask her to point North, she'll 
point to the sky.  ANyway, she went to Europe as part of a choral 
group and they went all of the place and had a really good time.  
Well, she was relating this story to someone once she returned to the 
states and told them all the places they went and how they went from 
paris to Switzerland by way of ... you know that country that starts 
with an "A" ... oh yeah, Argentina.  I suppose it is more amusing to 
know that the other person didn't catch anything wrong .....

Michelle :) <---who knows quite a bit about geography, but can't find 
her car keys .... hmmmmmm






From slytherin_belle at hotmail.com  Wed Feb 27 17:58:39 2002
From: slytherin_belle at hotmail.com (Evil Flame)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 11:58:39 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Arm-y Annoyance  (guy-y whinge post)
References: <B8A2C036.B557%john@walton.vu>
Message-ID: <DAV19DE8IqpFuiHV5EI0000eb4d@hotmail.com>

>
> *jumps up and down, getting very irate*
>
> I have clothing problems, and not just because I'm rather large. Despite
the
> fact that I can buy off-the-shelf shirts which will fit my more-than-ample
> tummy, can I buy ONE shirt from ANY regular retailer which will fit my 38"
> long arms? No. Neither can I find shirts *long* enough to stay tucked in
if
> I sit down. Instead, I have to go to a Big And Tall shop, where I take a
> size 18 shirt, extra-long, with 38" arms. *growls*
>
> --John

I feel you pain!  My hubby wears a 40 inch sleeve (he mostly wears 38
sleeves because you can find them a little easier, and his wrists are always
sticking out.) as well as a 41 in inseam.  He's a disaster to try to find
shirts and pants for.  No, mens' sizes aren't much better if you are not the
'average' size.

-Evil Flame



From macloudt at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Feb 27 18:05:15 2002
From: macloudt at yahoo.co.uk (macloudt)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 18:05:15 -0000
Subject: Leggy laments: The spidery and the stumpy (girly whinge post)
In-Reply-To: <003d01c1bf96$f97e7b20$fb0ddccb@price>
Message-ID: <a5j74r+cpjf@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "Tabouli" <tabouli at u...> wrote:

> (Tabouli, who wasted endless hours of her adolescence staring 
mournfully at her legs in the mirror and *willing* them to grow long 
and slender, rummages around in her heart to find sympathy for the 
leggy Elkins, but emerges empty handed, and instead mounts her soap-
box, standing on the very tips of her toes)
> 
> Haaaang on a minute here.  You long-legged types think you got 
problems, huh?  Huh?  Ha!  At least long legs are in fashion - spare 
a thought for us stumpy types!

Hear, hear!  As someone who hit 5'2"/156 cm at the age of 11 and 
stayed there, I must admit to having next to no sympathy for the long-
legged (or any other part of the anatomy)
> 
> How do you think we stumpies feel watching the spidery parade of 
models and actresses sashaying through our billboards and TV screens, 
and reading lyrical passages all over the place about long, elegant, 
Bambi-like limbs?  When we end up spending our life's savings on 
having every lower body garment we buy taken up at the hem, and 
suffered in silence through the very groovy fashion a few years ago 
for bootleg trousers with embroidery on the bottom?  When *our* 
pantihose fall into wrinkles around our ankles unless hitched up 
every 5 minutes to our armpits?  When we risk lifelong back and foot 
problems trying to compensate with 5" heels...I'm always getting 
things altered, because (a) I seem to range from Australian size 8 to 
size 12 across different parts of my body and therefore nothing ever 
fits off the rack, and (b) I'm vain and finicky enough to spend money 
on making my clothes fit properly (!).

Be thankful, Tabloui...I'm a size 16-18 British, though I happily 
admit that it's my own fault (Me? Gluttonous!?).  When I was a size 
20 I had to shorten everything I bought because no shop carried short 
lengths in that girth.  Now, at least, I can buy a pair of jeans and 
not have them languishing on my monstrous sewing pile waiting to be 
shortened.  But tights are still a problem as I need a Queen size 
(who *did* think up that stupid term?) for girth, but I end up with 
elephant legs as they're waaayyy to long for me.  And I gave up 
buying one-piece outfits years ago because I can't afford to get them 
altered, and my sewing skills don't extend that far. 

> Interestingly, after a visit to France my supervisor commented that 
the French seem to make clothes for the shape women really are, not 
some strange non-existent ideal.  Musing on the French stereotypes I 
know of, this isn't too surprising, though I'm interested to hear 
denial or further confirmation of this from European listmembers!  
When visiting Asia, I suddenly went from an Australian small to 
medium to a large to extra large (I confess to flinching).  I've also 
been known to try on (very pretty, albeit pricey) clothing from the 
British chain Monsoon, only to discover time and time again that it's 
hopeless.  'What *shape* are those British women?'  I found myself 
despairing...

>From what I gather, British women are viewed as rectangular.  No 
breasts, hips, or waists, please...the clothing designers don't cater 
for us deformed types.  The fashion for straight skirts is driving me 
mad because I have large hips but a comparatively small waist, so 
they're either too tight around the bum or far too loose at the 
waist.  I loved the 80's wide, elasticised skirts as they actually 
fit me.  Shame about the perm, though.
> 
> Of course, the worst thing of all is that so many women spend so 
much time and energy and misery fretting about the size and nature of 
their deviation from the media body ideal.  Terribly depressing.  
It's enough to drive anyone to the Internet (the great leveller, 
where the inside's all that counts because it's all people see...)

...and you can lie through your teeth about your physical 
appearance!  Not that *I'd* ever lower myself to do such a 
thing :::::adjusts her size 8 fitted little dress, flexes her toned, 
slim arms, and adjusts her 34B perkies:::::

Mary Ann
(living in dreamland again)




From catalyna_99 at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 27 21:28:23 2002
From: catalyna_99 at yahoo.com (Cat)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 13:28:23 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Shoes in States (but no Sheets)
In-Reply-To: <b7.1c414ed0.29acd608@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020227212824.24861.qmail@web10704.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Indyfans at aol.com wrote:
> In Minnesota, it's a given that you immediately take
> your shoes off when you 
> enter a house.  There are even signs at the doors of
> model houses to do so.  
> When we first moved there, I thought those signs
> were for construction 
> workers!  Not uncommon to see 10 pairs of shoes
> outside someone's house.    
>                  Jen
> 
----------------------------------------------------
I'm in the Maryland, DC, VA area and it's not common
at all to ask your guests to take their shoes off.  In
carpeted homes or hardwood. They would probably get
some real funny looks. When I was a kid, there was a
neighbor across the street who insisted that her
family and visitors take their shoes off, but we just
thought she was strange. 

Me personally, however,I prefer to go barefoot in the
house no matter what season and don't really care if
my guests feel comfortable enough to shuck their shoes
while their visiting.
Cat 

=====
Cat

Life's like a movie. Write your own ending. Keep believing, keep pretending.--Kermit the Frog

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Greetings - Send FREE e-cards for every occasion!
http://greetings.yahoo.com



From nesbitaa at purdue.edu  Wed Feb 27 21:29:15 2002
From: nesbitaa at purdue.edu (oboakk)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 21:29:15 -0000
Subject: Weather or not....
In-Reply-To: <8D81DA4A50@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>
Message-ID: <a5jj3b+fjkn@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "Rachel Bray" <bray.262 at o...> wrote:
> Monday it was 65 degrees.  I had the windows open in my 
> apartment and drove with the windows down in my car.
> 
> Yesterday it started off at 48 degrees and dropped to -9 
> with the wind chill last night.
> 
> This morning....my car doors were frozen shut and the wind 
> chill made it 3 degrees.

I know exactly what you're talking about!  Today I wore long 
underwear under my jeans, and Monday morning I didn't even wear a 
coat!  It's been a strange winter, we just got our first *real* 
snowfall of the season, which here in Indiana is usually sometime in 
November, not the end of February.

Abby




From skelkins at attbi.com  Wed Feb 27 22:11:39 2002
From: skelkins at attbi.com (ssk7882)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 22:11:39 -0000
Subject: Incontinent Dogs
In-Reply-To: <a5iomv+3hsd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a5jlir+qfg0@eGroups.com>

Naama wrote, about the epileptic dog's favorite couch:

> Oh, the stench! It takes hours to clean it up, soaking a large 
> portion of the sofa in soapy water and sponging it up. 

Oh, the stench indeed!  My dog has a favorite sofa as well.
(It's *her* sofa now.  We've ceded it to her.  It seemed too
cruel to try to make her sleep on something else after a 
lifetime of sleeping on this particular sofa, and it was
sort of old and beat-up and dog-haired anyway, so now it's 
hers -- and hers alone.  When she goes, that sofa's going 
with her.)  So believe me: I *know* what you're talking about.  
You have my deepest sympathies.

You probably know this already, but baking soda can really
help with that problem.  If you dump a big heaping pile of 
baking soda on the, er, wet spot first, give it a while to 
soak, and then vacuum it all up before you start with the 
soap-and-water treatment, the baking soda absorbs a lot of 
the odor and can keep it from permeating the rest of the
cushion.  It's worked okay for us, at any rate.

Sorry if this topic grosses people out, BTW, but cleaning
up after the dog really has become rather a large part of
my life lately, so it's nice to, um, share.


-- Elkins, pleased that her cats, at least, require no such care.




From editor at texas.net  Wed Feb 27 22:41:48 2002
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 16:41:48 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Stockings and Tights (WAS: Shoes Indoors)
References: <20020227130316.81427.qmail@web14608.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <00b301c1bfdf$f2004240$bb7763d1@texas.net>

On behalf of all the women who hate pantyhose, please let me mention a
couple of the fabulous fringe benefits of being in a medieval group:

(1)  you, the woman, get to wear long, floor-length dresses with anything
you damn well please underneath, and him, your lord, has to struggle into
tights. You know you can laugh at him if you want because he can't move,
either, in mid-process.
(2) If they're black or white, he'll need to wear two pairs to make the
color true.
(3) (slightly unrelated) You, the woman, know perfectly well how to deal
with long skirts in the bathroom, and you get to laugh at him, your lord,
when he gripes about his houppelande dangling in the toilet, etc., etc.
(4) When they, the men, wear tights, it's generally with rather short
tunics, with the pleasant side-effect that there is a lot of well-dressed
eye candy available for casual perusal.

--Amanda, whose lord used to get requests to wear a certain tunic, after it
split a seam all the way up to his hip....




From voicelady at mymailstation.com  Wed Feb 27 21:57:53 2002
From: voicelady at mymailstation.com (voicelady)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 17:57:53 EDT
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Those nutty mods
Message-ID: <id.27022002175753.00000@FPE>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., David wrote [snip marvelous fairy tale]

That was positively delightful!  Not to mention ridiculously clever and very funny.

I quite enjoyed identifying everyone.

Thanks for a great chortle!

Jeralyn, the Voicelady



From mjollner at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 27 21:24:56 2002
From: mjollner at yahoo.com (mjollner)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 21:24:56 -0000
Subject: Body whinging, Climate, Chicago
Message-ID: <a5jir8+rabt@eGroups.com>

Tabouli weighed in on the travails of short people:

Ah, my vertically challenged sister, you are not alone!  I'm 5 foot 3 
on a good day, am forever rolling up sleeves that would otherwise 
droop over my fingers and consistently leave movie theaters with a 
kink in my neck from leaning one way or the other to try to see the 
screen despite some tall person's head blocking my view (and they 
*always* come in late and know to sit right in front of me!).  

Although US department stores frequently have a "petites" section, 
with clothing ostensibly designed for ladies who are closer to the 
ground than the rest of society, the selection of styles is frequently 
disappointing and is almost always smaller than the range available 
for taller folks.

But I'm intrigued at your supervisor's observation about French 
clothing!  Maybe I can finagle that into an excuse for a trip soon...I 
think the pursuit of properly fitting clothing is reason enough for 
an airplane ticket, don't you?  :)

******
joanne0012 wrote in response to Tabouli's post on climate's effect on 
cultural development:

>The absolute best book about this is the (unfortunately titled, IMHO) 
>"Guns, Germs and Steel," a Pulitzer-Prize-winning tome by Jared 
>Diamond. 

I second that recommendation!  Illuminating book, and well-reasoned 
and -argued.  "How the Irish Saved Civilization" is also - I will 
grudgingly admit - a worthy read, as well.  *Grudgingly* because I 
used to date someone of Irish descent who *made* me read it, you see. 
Had this whole "Irish superiority" complex, you see. In due time I 
married someone who *wasn't* Irish.  :)  Though I do miss the 
discussions we had about the raiding and general marauding my Viking 
forbears inflicted upon the homeland of his Celtic forbears...makes me 
all misty-eyed...

******
And in reminiscing about the Windy City, Morrigan//Vicki// revealed:

>*grins* Yep, I've been there as well.  I went to Loyola University 
>Chicago for undergrad and spent WAY too much time down on Michigan 
>Ave and around Water Tower Place.  Where did you go to school?

I went to college just up Sheridan Road from you, at Northwestern.  I 
took every available opportunity to take that long El ride 
downtown...man, what a great place! 

Mjollner




From cindysphynx at comcast.net  Wed Feb 27 23:27:45 2002
From: cindysphynx at comcast.net (cindysphynx)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 23:27:45 -0000
Subject: Those nutty mods
In-Reply-To: <42D3123C.4ACE88AD.6E93A4F5@netscape.net>
Message-ID: <a5jq1h+t3j9@eGroups.com>

David wrote:

<snip fabulous, fabulous post>

Well, goodness me!  David, that was terrific!  You're spoiling us.  
Bravo! Encore!

Cindy (feeling guilty that while she is complaining about pantyhose, 
David is Creating Something Worthwhile)




From tabouli at unite.com.au  Thu Feb 28 01:43:52 2002
From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 12:43:52 +1100
Subject: Culture/climate, sizing, countries, accents
Message-ID: <006b01c1bff9$6c8fa640$6d1cddcb@price>

Joanne:
> Tabouli has it backwards, IMHO -- northern Europeans developed very little culture of their own, basically being barbarians until they conquered and assimilated Mediterranean cultures. (For further insights, read the surprisingly
fun "How the Irish Saved Civilization.")<

(NOTE: I have pretty minimal background in anthropology... these are my *guesses*, which are wide open to correction from anyone who *does* have a background in the subject!)

True, true, but I think the invention of climate control via heating, air conditioning, cars, supermarkets, etc. has changed things a lot since then.  Once upon a time, people in Northern Europe would have died out in a year if they spent all their time worrying about art and literature.  In fact, my guess is that living where they did, their number one priority was almost certainly to make sure they were ready for winter with stores, shelters, insulating mammoth skins and so on.  Hence the barbarian stuff.

OTOH, the people of the Mediterranean were comparatively blessed.  Winters, but not so icy and resource-starved that the wolf was, so to speak, perpetually at the door... they could retreat into their houses and think about architecture and philosophy quite happily.  Quite different from the tropics, where I imagine the year-round plenty produced pretty relaxed, generous societies.

Note also that in my Australian example, I was in fact comparing people from the sub-tropics to tropics (Queensland) with people in a Mediterranean-to-temperate climate (Melbourne), which in fact holds nicely with Joanne's comments!

These days, however, Northern Europeans don't need to stockpile and slave for winter any more - they can hole up in their heated houses and drive in their heated car to the supermarket for supplies.  Hence they have a lot of time on their hands when its dark and cold and there's not much to do except hunch by the heater talking about art!

(well hey, it's a theory... I do have a copy of Guns and Germs and Steel, but haven't read it yet... should get onto it)

Cindy:
> Yet the same thing happens to me again and again and again.  Pull 
two sizes of same pants off of rack.  Enter dressing room and strip 
in flourescent light.  Pull on larger of the two sizes.  Note *huge* 
gaps in waistband, nice fit in seat.  Pull on smaller size.  Note 
nice fit in waistband, Charro fit in seat.  Purchase larger size, 
pay money to shorten, come back in a week, cinch up excess waist 
fabric with belt, having achieved the "hillbilly" look.<

Ahh yes, this is the famous "waistless woman" problem.  I know it well.  Clothing manufacturers seem unable to grasp the notion of women who have both hips *and* a waist.  In addition to chopping four inches off the bottom of all my skirts and trousers, I'm constantly buying clothes to fit over my bum and hips and then getting someone to take in two inches off the waistband.

Then there's the "all women have C cups" problem.  Time and time again I try on tops and dresses and have the neckline hanging attractively somewhere around my lower ribcage.  Very saucy.  Back to tailor again, take three inches out of shoulder straps/shoulders to put neckline in appropriate place, wonder why the armholes have suddenly become so tight, return to tailor, take garment out around armhole.  Sigh heavily.

Kimberly:
> Wow!  62 countries is pretty impressive

Weeell, I suspect that my looks aren't really quite this cosmopolitan.  It's more that I went through a stage of inviting every person who came out with the ubiquitous "what's your background?" question to guess.  Some of them refused to give up and navigated the entire globe trying to figure me out, hence the 62 countries.  I'm sort of small and dark with light olive skin... most people started going around the Mediterranean, with the diehards progressing to the Middle East, Latin America and eventually the Pacific Islands and Asia and Africa (Mauritian??  Nepalese???).

Kimberly:
> So Tabouli and Sean - how typical is Adelaide, accent-wise?  

There's really not *that* much regional difference in the Australian accent.  Some, but you'd have to know Australian accents pretty well to pick the difference.  I'd say your Adelaidean friend's accent will be pretty representative.  The most important variables are probably socio-economic status and urban/rural, rather than region in Australia, with a broader accent being associated with lower SES and rural areas.  As I mentioned, Adelaide was never a convict colony (I was told this almost daily when I moved there from Melbourne for a few years!).  Perhaps as a result, the accent in Adelaide  incorporates more BBC touches than people from the east coast, hence bahth, dahnce, grahph.  Not sure about Perth and Darwin.

Tabouli.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From s_ings at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 28 04:27:35 2002
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 23:27:35 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Epileptic dogs
In-Reply-To: <a5io3g+6n4u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20020228042735.81816.qmail@web14606.mail.yahoo.com>


--- naamagatus <naama_gat at hotmail.com> wrote:
> My own dog, thankfully still young, is epileptic
> (did you know dogs 
> get that?).  The good thing is that His epilepsy
> attacks come quite 
> far apart, about once every two month, so he doesn't
> have to take 
> medication. The bad thing is that the attacks always
> happen when he's 
> asleep. Now (because I haven't taught him any
> better) he sleeps 
> mostly on the living room sofa. This means that
> every two months or 
> so my sofa gets peed upon (I've heard that losing
> bladder control 
> happens to human epileptics too). The stench! And
> the time it takes 
> to clean it up! I have to soak a large portion of
> the sofa in soapy 
> water and sponge it up. 
> I won't bore you with the story of how my cat peed
> on that same 
> dilapidated sofa. You might be interested to know,
> however, that cat 
> pee stinks even worse than dog pee. :( indeed.
> 
My best friend had a dog who suffered from frequent
epileptic seizures. She was at the chiropractor's
office one day and had mentioned it to him. He told
her to bring Digger along on her next visit and he'd
see what he could do. Whatever he did, it worked, and
now she spends $20 a month taking her dog to her
chiropractor instead of the $100s it used to cost in
doggy medication.

Sheryll, who knows she has strange friends

=====
"We need to be united and strong. We'll have losses and scares, sure. And you'll be there for each other, helping each other through the bad times."
 blpurdom - Harry Potter and the Psychic Serpent, Chapter 26

______________________________________________________________________ 
Find, Connect, Date! http://personals.yahoo.ca



From saintbacchus at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 28 04:44:20 2002
From: saintbacchus at yahoo.com (saintbacchus)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 04:44:20 -0000
Subject: Girly whinging and brand-name inconsistency
In-Reply-To: <000f01c1bf97$f28edb60$c01486d9@monica>
Message-ID: <a5kcj4+e9a8@eGroups.com>

--- "Kathryn" <kcawte at k...> wrote:

<<
And on the subject of British clothing and shapes -
none of us Brits can fit into the clothing either. And
just because you're one size in one shop doesn't mean
you'll be the same size in a different shop.
>>

*LOL* Isn't it reassuring to know that women have the
same problems all over the world? I strongly believe
that the numbers used to designate sizes are chosen by
numerologists who work for clothing designers. ("Eight
shall bring a plague of locusts o'er us all! Better make
the new line size ten!")

A couple years ago, The Gap made a believer out of me
with "Boy Fit" jeans. They promptly discontinued that
cut, of course, but I still buy my pants there because
they fit wonderfully. (Why a yuppie joint like The Gap
stocks jeans that fit a chunky, stumpy-legged chick like
me, I don't know, but they do.)

Anyway, I made an interesting discovery there one day:
their sizes vary depending on COLOR. Took two pairs of
jeans into the dressing room. One was a Boot Cut, size 
14, blue denim. The other was a Boot Cut, size 14, khaki.
The khaki fit fine. Couldn't squeeze the denim around my
thighs. The same thing happened recently when I went to 
get a couple more pairs. I'm used to that from different
brands, but the SAME one??

--Anna




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 28 02:30:51 2002
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (lupinesque)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 02:30:51 -0000
Subject: Those nutty mods
In-Reply-To: <42D3123C.4ACE88AD.6E93A4F5@netscape.net>
Message-ID: <a5k4or+q2bv@eGroups.com>

Brilliant!  But didn't he meet an Anglo-Danish sex god anywhere along 
the way?

Amy




From ganvira at earthlink.net  Thu Feb 28 05:46:21 2002
From: ganvira at earthlink.net (Terry van Ettinger)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 21:46:21 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Mountains=the "new place" ?
References: <a5kajc+730l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00b201c1c01b$408088e0$0797cd18@charterpipeline.com>

Since this doesn't have any theory or anything to challenge the following
with, I'm putting it on OT.....but she better not kill off Hagrid!  I'm
sorry, but he's just too damn good to kill off!  Surely she's got someone
she can kill off if she's going to without messing with Hagrid!!!!!!

Terry
----- Original Message -----
From: "abced99420" <abced99 at hotmail.com>
To: <HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2002 8:10 PM
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Mountains=the "new place" ?


> Hi!
> I've lately been attempting to plot out what I think will happen in
> the whole of book 5, to stave off despair of it will actually ever be
> published. Anyway, I am of the opinion that Hagrid will be the one
> to die, and I figure that if JKR is going to kill off one of her
> personal favorite characters, she will most likely give him some
> major "screen time" first. What better way to do that than give
> Hagrid his own major subplot with the giants, in the mountains?
> What I haven't figured out yet is a plausible time and reason for
> Harry to go to the mountains with him? Does anyone have any
> ideas about this? I think that "giant land" would be a very
> interesting place to see!
> cheers,
> abced99
>
>
>
>
> ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________
>
> Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File!
> http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin
>
> Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material
from posts to which you're replying!
>
> Is your message...
> An announcement of merchandise, news etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements.
> Movie-related? Send it to HPFGU-Movie.
> Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups.
> None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter.
> Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods --
MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com
>
> Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
> ____________________________________________________________
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 28 11:00:48 2002
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (lupinesque)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 11:00:48 -0000
Subject: girly whinge post
In-Reply-To: <a5j74r+cpjf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a5l2l0+73gl@eGroups.com>

Mary Ann lamented:

>The fashion for straight skirts is driving 
me 
> mad because I have large hips but a comparatively small waist

That would be because you're a WOMAN.  *fumes*  Honestly, haven't 
these designers ever heard of hips?  They seem to expect us all to be 
shaped like, well, men.  I often wonder where they find fashion 
models--do they place discreet ads in the classifieds, "desperately 
seeking 6'1" woman with no bum"?

Amy
who would love to masquerade on line as a 5'8" chestnut beauty, 
38C-28-36, but would be laughing too hard to press Send




From miss_megan at dingoblue.net.au  Thu Feb 28 10:02:46 2002
From: miss_megan at dingoblue.net.au (storm)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 21:02:46 +1100
Subject: Australian accident/'come with'
References: <a5f3mo+hres@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <002501c1c049$094d6fe0$b0cb8ec6@storm>



> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "Tabouli" <tabouli at u...> wrote:
> The Australian accent has some regional variation, as well, though
> nothing like the regional variation in the UK or US.  <snip> Melburnians
> have been known to sniff that Sydney
> accents are nasal and unmelodious compared with their own, but I
> suspect that sniff owes more than a little to intercity rivalry...
> (storm?  you there, holding up the Sydney side and fighting the good
> fight against Melbourne of the miserable climate?)

storm, finally roars up in her ageing Holdern .....

Sorry Tabouli, the whole Melbourne/Sydney thing leaves me cold. I visited
Melbourne once and though 'I could live here'. Such a shame that I don't.
(Melbourne has a great vegan shoe shop)

re the 'come with' I say that! I thought everyone did though. My family are
ex-South Africa so maybe I inherited it from them.

storm, who has never been able to tell the differences in Australian accents but
says 'plahnt' and oddly enough 'haitch'.





From miss_megan at dingoblue.net.au  Thu Feb 28 10:10:12 2002
From: miss_megan at dingoblue.net.au (storm)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 21:10:12 +1100
Subject: Incontinant Dogs
Message-ID: <002701c1c049$0db07be0$b0cb8ec6@storm>

Finally, a subject I know *too* much about!

Namma - if you cover your couch with a plastic backed fabric (only for
overnight) it makes clean up much easier. Something like a mattress protector
does a very good job.

And there is nothing wrong with dogs sleeping on the couch! My smallest monster
sleeps in the small of my neck (moderately uncomfortable for me but she seems to
like it).

storm, who also has an incontinent dog


there is nothing to fear in this moment and this is the only real moment there
is
 - Jeanne DuPrau





From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Thu Feb 28 12:36:23 2002
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 12:36:23 -0000
Subject: Baby talk
In-Reply-To: <a5hses+ehb3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a5l887+3ujl@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "jenP_97" <jenP_97 at y...> wrote:
> So we take a bath, and all is going well... and here's the funny 
> part.  Ginger makes some bubbles "the natural way", and says to me 
in
> this mini-philosopher's voice:
> 
> "Mommy?  Why do people ALWAYS fart in the bathtub?"

When James was two, and we had recently introduced him to boiled 
eggs, he pointed at a bald man on the train, and said loudly

"Mummy, why has that man got a boiled head?"

Fortunately, he was amused.  Hope you're sleeping better, Jen

David




From macloudt at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Feb 28 14:04:55 2002
From: macloudt at yahoo.co.uk (macloudt)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 14:04:55 -0000
Subject: Kids say the darndest things
Message-ID: <a5lde7+7r0s@eGroups.com>

My friend, who is a preschool teacher, has the most terrific story.  
Some time ago a policeman came to the preschool to give a talk to the 
kids.  The copper was showing the kids his gear, and when he showed 
them his handcuffs, a little boy piped up:

"My mommy and daddy have those, too!"

And, no, mommy and daddy are *not* police officers!

It was all the staff could do to keep from hurting themselves 
laughing, and they were amazed at how the cop just picked up where he 
left off and continued.  Needless to say, the staff could never look 
the little lad's parents in the eye again.

Makes me wonder what *my* kids say at school...hmm...perhaps 
homeschooling wouldn't be such a bad idea...

Mary Ann
(who's worried now)




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 28 15:39:08 2002
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 10:39:08 -0500
Subject: How Harry nearly won me $1000
Message-ID: <F264zMSKs175qh2xaxu0000ad75@hotmail.com>

<warning:  contains spoiler for a very old Ellery Queen short story>

So I'm in South Station, Boston, in December with a bit of a wait for my bus 
home, so I buy a Games World of Puzzles magazine and head right for the 
Trivia Cross contest, first prize $1000 (runners up get a Games t-shirt).  I 
bring it along to my mom's at the holidays and with the help of my mother, 
my husband, and the internet, I finish the entire thing long before the 
deadline of February 4.  Almost the entire thing:  the instructions say that 
when you've filled in all the trivia questions and solved the crossword, 
you'll end up with a question, the answer to which is a very familiar name 
in an unfamiliar context.  Having Harry on the brain, I'm thinking from the 
beginning, "Harry Potter!" but come on, it could be anything.  But here I am 
with the question before me, and it's "What is the name of the building 
superintendent who commits the crime in Ellery Queen's 'The Seven Black 
Cats'?"  I'm more sure than ever that the answer will prove to be "Harry 
Potter."  Common enough name, properly superintendent-ish when you think 
about it, but again, I don't *know* that that's the answer.

So I go looking for "The Seven Black Cats."  A fair amount of internet 
research reveals that it dates back to the early 1930's and appears in a 
1934 collection called The Adventures of Ellery Queen.  This is going to be 
tough.  I request it from interlibrary loan in early January.

Three weeks later, no peep from the library.  No doubt they're rustling up a 
copy from Mrs. Rufus T. Howland who's had it out from the East Podunk, 
Illinois public library since November 1975.  I almost send Games the 
contest entry postcard with Harry Potter written on it, even though it's a 
complete guess, since I have nothing to lose but twenty cents, but I don't.

Fast forward 4 weeks.  I finally get a call from the local library that The 
Adventures of Ellery Queen is waiting for me.  With dread in my heart I pick 
it up and skip to the end of "The Seven Black Cats."  You guessed it:  the 
superintendent's name is Harry Potter.  Damn, damn, damn.

Amy
comforting herself that it would have been a one-in-10,000 chance to win 
anyway

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.




From bray.262 at osu.edu  Thu Feb 28 11:43:40 2002
From: bray.262 at osu.edu (Rachel Bray)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 11:43:40 EST5EDT
Subject: Yay!  It won!
Message-ID: <A871DC23AB@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>

Thrilled that Train's Drops of Jupiter won Best Rock Song.  
I'm slightly obsessed with that song.

And that will always be my Harry song because of the line 
"....one without a permanent scar".  And especially when 
reading Lori Summers' The Show That Never Ends...it's 
become my Harry and Hermione song.

Yay.  Happy happy joy joy.

Rachel Bray
The Ohio State University
Fees, Deposits and Disbursements


Frodo: I wish the ring had never come to me....I wish 
none of this had happened.

Gandalf: So do all who live to see such times, but that 
is not for them to decide.  All we have to decide is 
what to do with the time that is given us.



From slytherin_belle at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 28 17:22:23 2002
From: slytherin_belle at hotmail.com (Evil Flame)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 11:22:23 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Yay!  It won!
References: <A871DC23AB@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>
Message-ID: <DAV3102mgSn8g2q5JAf0000f2bb@hotmail.com>


> Thrilled that Train's Drops of Jupiter won Best Rock Song.
> I'm slightly obsessed with that song.
>
> And that will always be my Harry song because of the line
> "....one without a permanent scar".  And especially when
> reading Lori Summers' The Show That Never Ends...it's
> become my Harry and Hermione song.
>
> Yay.  Happy happy joy joy.
>

I'm so glad to hear that it won also.  I love that song and it's one that I
have always found very inspiring to write to.  It does have a very Harry
feel to it now that I think about it.  I'd never made that connection
before.

-Evil Flame



From cindysphynx at comcast.net  Thu Feb 28 19:43:44 2002
From: cindysphynx at comcast.net (cindysphynx)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 19:43:44 -0000
Subject: Puffing (WAS girly whinge post)
In-Reply-To: <a5l2l0+73gl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a5m19g+9efq@eGroups.com>

Amy Z wrote:

> Amy
> who would love to masquerade on line as a 5'8" chestnut beauty, 
> 38C-28-36, but would be laughing too hard to press Send

Hold on there, Amy.  I think you've had a great idea.  What this 
board needs is a bit of Puffing.  I've never met you; you've never 
met me.  Soooo . . . you want to be a 5'8" chestnut beauty, 38C-28-
36.  Fine by me.

I, on the other hand, am Alicia Keys on an especially good day, 
including that glittery eye shadow she wore at the Grammys.  Heck, I 
wear that glittery eye shadow *every day,* even when I'm just 
scrubbing the toilets.  And you should see how totally red *hot* I 
am when I take those braids out of my hair.

Cindy (who is having no trouble pressing Send)




From aiz24 at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 28 19:52:36 2002
From: aiz24 at hotmail.com (lupinesque)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 19:52:36 -0000
Subject: Puffing (WAS girly whinge post)
In-Reply-To: <a5m19g+9efq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a5m1q4+q2j2@eGroups.com>

Cindy puffed:

> I, on the other hand, am Alicia Keys on an especially good day, 
> including that glittery eye shadow she wore at the Grammys.  Heck, 
I 
> wear that glittery eye shadow *every day,* even when I'm just 
> scrubbing the toilets.  

Alicia scrubs toilets?  Uh, I think you blew your cover there.

Amy




From starling823 at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 28 21:23:43 2002
From: starling823 at yahoo.com (Starling)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 16:23:43 -0500
Subject: Sizing for a particularly delicate area
References: <1014916892.1945.15453.m8@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <001e01c1c09e$3568a220$3d74e280@cc.binghamton.edu>

Hello lovely ladies...

Ladies, some of you will sympathize with this, I hope.  Men, you can't
understand my complaint.  Feel free to read, but you won't get it.

I cannot find bras.  I am, thanks to the delightful genetic code I got from
my parents (and I'd gladly give this part back)  a DD cup.  I have been told
so many times how "lucky" I am, and how many women spend millions to
artifically achieve what I have naturally.
Well, if so many women want a DD, why can't anyone sell decent bras for
it?!??  I have to look high and low for one that fits.  Sometimes I'll get
lucky and a manufacture will have made a generous D, sometimes I have go
::gulp:: go larger...  and it's always disgustingly expensive. I am a
student, I can't exactly toss away $30 for one bra.  Not that many people
see my underwear, either, but it would be nice to own something other than
white.  I look at my collection, so to speak, and it has all the variety of
someone's grandmother's.  (No offense to my grandma, although genetically,
like I said, it's her fault...)  and Victoria's Secret, that holy grail of
bra shopping, is a waste of my precious time.  They're  too small, too thin,
and too expensive.
What bewilders me, is how, in a nation that has always idolized women with
big breasts, I cannot find something to hold them up.  I've debated writing
my congressman to complain, even though I know he'd probably just stick the
letter up on the wall for the amusement of the staff.

Shopping for shirts and blouses is also difficult.  I'll find a great
blouse, only to find it doesn't button quite properly down the middle.
Forget anything clingey.  I enjoy looking fashionable as much as the next,
but it's incredibly hard to do when everything fits fine except for one
rather noticable area.... ::glares in general direction of the mall::  I
have a wedding to go to in late May, so I have to start searching for
something *now*, and even then that's no guarantee that I'll find
anything...

Honestly, I'd rather be short.  I could deal with short.  This, on the other
hand, is a pain in the you-know-what ;-)

There, I've vented.  I feel better.  If I've ruined any male's delight in
large-chested women (I'm told I've done that to several of my buds)...oops.
:)  Sorry.

Abbie, who can easily spend $200 on a shopping trip entirely on necessities,
and therefore never goes shopping

starling823 at yahoo.com
"Harry, just go down to the lake tomorrow, right, stick your head in, yell
at the merpeople to give back whatever they've nicked and see if they chuck
it out.  Best you can do, mate."
 -Ron, Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From skelkins at attbi.com  Thu Feb 28 22:00:54 2002
From: skelkins at attbi.com (ssk7882)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 22:00:54 -0000
Subject: SHIP: E.L.G.I.N.M.A.R.B.L.E.S.
Message-ID: <a5m9aq+uv7r@eGroups.com>

A bit of Silly!Ship goofiness brought over here from the main list, 
because even *I* couldn't manage to justify claiming this sort of 
thing as truly canon-based anymore.  This is really Spec Parody.  
It's unlikely to make very much sense if you haven't been following 
the exchange up to this point.  So, um.  You have been warned.


-------------------


Tabouli, running about frantically while tossing various hats, 
brooches, and strange wraps into the air in her search for the 
appropriate TAGS costume, tossed off, seemingly without even a 
moment's pause for thought:

> C.U.P.I.D.'S.Q.U.A.F.F.L.E. (Cruelly Undermining Proud, Infatuated 
> Damsel,Sirius Quickened Underage, Awkward Feminist Florence's Lapse 
> into Evil)

Elkins' jaw drops.  She stares.  And then, suddenly slipping back 
into those bad old SYCOPHANTS habits, she moans helplessly and throws 
herself forward to prostrate herself at Tabouli's feet, grovelling 
mindlessly while gasping out incoherent phrases of awe-struck praise 
and worshipful devotion.

In a somewhat suspiciously friendly tone, Tabouli continues:

> Maybe ships, like cities, could have twinning deals. We could 
> exchange students! Have the captains shake hands in front of the 
> municipal fountain for the cameras! Unveil plaques for each other! 
> We must talk about this, Captain Elkins. 

Alas!  All too late, Elkins remembers what her mother always used to 
tell her about negotiating.  "When dealing with potentially piratical 
colleagues," Mother always used to say, "you must always open 
negotiations by giving the impression that you are dealing from a 
position of *strength.*"

Now, Elkins was never altogether sure what Mum used to mean by that 
word, 'strength,' but she is almost certain that prostration, 
grovelling, and other such grand gestures of self-abasement do not 
qualify.

Well, *darn,* she thinks, picking herself up off the ground with a 
slight wince, the wrenched hip serving as a forceful reminder that 
prostration really is a younger woman's game.  If only I'd 
*remembered* that.  

She smiles weakly at Captain Tabouli, brushes a few twigs off of one 
shoulder, and wonders if there is any point in hoping that her 
momentary lapse into sycophancy might have gone miraculously 
unnoticed.

> Here (says Captain Tabouli, discreetly hiding the parrot under her 
> captain's hat and removing the knife from between her teeth), let 
> me extend a plank... er, platform for discussion...

Elkins is beginning to get the idea that Captain Tabouli did indeed 
notice.  She tries to ignore the sound of Tabouli's crew scraping 
something heavy and wooden across the deck somewhere behind her and 
instead glances back to shore.  Cindy's little booth on the dock 
suddenly seems very far away, and the water looks...cold.  She slips 
one hand surreptitiously into her pocket, but comes up with nothing 
but a lint-covered cough drop and thirteen cents in change.

Oh no, she thinks.  Where the devil did I leave that remote control?  
And what on earth could have possessed me to set foot on this ship in 
the first place?  

Elkins can see the gun-metal gleam of the Big Bang Destroyer not too 
far away, but somehow suspects that the SWEETGEORGIANISM badge that 
she *still* (as she only now realizes with a thrill of sick horror) 
has pinned to her chest might make her considerably less than welcome 
there.

> Doom. Doom, doom, doom.

Elkins blinks.  It's not that she's never heard voices before, mind.  
But in the past, they've usually not reflected *quite* so accurately 
her conscious internal thought processes of the moment.

> DOOOOOOM.

Glancing once more over to her left, Elkins is startled to see 
Captain Charis Julia, tooling by in her motorized 
C.U.P.I.D.S.B.L.U.D.G.E.R. inner tube and tugging along behind her an 
*extraordinarily* frilly pink barge labelled 
E.L.G.I.N.M.A.R.B.L.E.S.  

Deciding not to think overmuch on why such an innocuous-looking 
vessel might be going "DOOOOOM," Elkins makes a quick promise to 
Tabouli to continue negotiations at some future time -- preferably 
someplace more, er, dry -- and bolts for the edge of the deck, 
bowling over the Captain's attractive young cabin boy (who bears, she
notes with profound disapproval, an uncanny resemblance to Marina's 
young George), and vaults herself over the side and down onto the 
frilly pink barge, where Charis Julia has been musing nervously:

> "...there's two birds nibbling from our bird feeder outside! How 
> cute!" Pause. "You know it's no wonder they're hungry. We've had 
> some awful weather indeed over here lately let me tell you! A 
> regular storm last night! Rain pouring, lightning flashing, thunder 
> bawling! I don't mind telling you...

Elkins lands sprawling on board the E.L.G.I.N.M.A.R.B.L.E.S. barge, 
inadvertently splashing Captain Charis with sea water for the second 
time in as many weeks.  She scrambles to her feet, shrieking 
hysterically:

"For God's *sake*, Captain!  Don't you see where you are?  Run!  Run, 
you fool!  IT'S LOLLIPOPS!  LOLLIPOPS OFF YOUR STARBOARD BOW!  
TABOULI'S ON DECK!  SHE'S GOT ACRONYMS!  SHE'S GOT UNCANNY VERBAL 
POWERS!  SHE'S GOT SPIRIT OF CANON!  SHE'S GOT FOLLOWERS WITH 
*PLANKS*!  RUN!  RUN FOR MY...I MEAN, *OUR* LIVES!  GUN THE ENGINES!  
RAISE THE SAILS!  MAN THE OARS!  IT'S...No.  No, wait.  What am I 
*saying?*  We can't outrun Tabouli.  No one can outrun Tabouli!  
Tabouli has the mystic power of the International Date Line; she'll 
*always* be ahead of us.  All right, then, MAN THE CANONS!  MAN 
THE..."

Elkins stops suddenly, noticing her surroundings for the first time.  
She looks about her, gaping.  This frilly pink barge has been 
decorated with pastel flowers, big red hearts, and smiling chubby 
putti.  Refreshments have been laid out for visitors -- spun candy 
floss, dainty little tea cakes with pink icing, sugared violets.  A 
wide assortment of big-eyed stuffed animals sits on a nearby divan, 
ready and waiting for snuggling.  

A music box somewhere is tinkling out "Send In the Clowns."

Elkins sits, very abruptly, down on the divan

"Oh.  My.  God."

She looks about her again, slowly shakes her head.

"You, uh..."  She swallows and closes her eyes.  "You, uh, don't 
actually have any canon on board this thing at all.  Do you."

Charis points to two dainty canons, one mounted on the barge's prow, 
the other on its stern.  The canon in the rear bears a label 
reading "MUGGLES ARE IMPORTANT!"  The one in front reads: "LILY WAS 
NICE."

Manning the forward canon with a girlish giggle, Charis explains:

> I think she [Lily] ought to have had two girlfriends. IMO, she's 
> the kind of girl that would have two girlfriends. Why?  Well, for 
> starters, she's *nice*. And nice girls aren't loners. Nice girls 
> have girlfriends. They have girlfriends because then they can have 
> midnight feasts on chocolate with those girlfriends in their 
> dormitories gigglingly trying to decide who the cutest boy in class 
> is.

Elkins picks up a large mauve stuffed bunny rabbit and hugs it 
protectively to her chest.

> And so that they can exchange dress robes and hair clips with them. 
> And so that they can sit on the bank of the lake with them lounging 
> in the sun and dreaming all the thrilling things that might just 
> happen if they do everything right in their lives...

Elkins hugs the bunny rabbit even harder.  It squeaks "Mama."  She 
gasps and throws it away from her, shuddering.

> Canon clearly states that Lily is nice and I'm prepared to take 
> Canon at it's word, even if it is voiced through emotional Hagrid.

Charis continues to outline a sweet romantic tale of Marauders and 
their girlfriends, of doomed young love, of angst and woe, and so 
forth, concluding with:

> That's E.L.G.I.N.M.A.R.B.L.E.S.: Excitable Love God's Irresponsible 
> Negligence over Marauder's Affairs Results in Break?ups and Love?
> starved Educators Sorrowing.

> Right. So there you have it. The reason I was so reluctant to send 
> it is that I have long realized that really my tastes are far too 
> sweet and calm for this e?group. 

Elkins manages a sick sort of smile.

"Sweet?" she repeats.  "Oh, noooooooo.  No, no, no, no, no.  Not at 
all.  I, er...well, as you know, my tastes are usually, er, a 
*little* more, um, violent and, uh, ugly, but that's...that's 
perfectly all right, Captain.  That's just fine.  I..."

She takes a deep breath, then states firmly:

"Look.  I'll tell you what I'm gonna do for you here, okay?  You get 
me *out* of here, *away* from this, away from *all* of these vessels, 
away from the whole romance *thing,* back to _dry land_, and I'll see 
if I can whip up some more canon for you?  Okay?  Do we have 
ourselves a deal here?"

"Good.  Now, let's see..."

---------------------

<Elkins rises to her feet, turns the stuffed animals to face the wall 
so that they will stop *staring* at her, and begins to pace back and 
forth, wishing that she had Dicentra's pipe and deer-stalker hat with 
her>

Okay.  So what we've got here is the introduction of not one, but 
*two* non-canonical characters, *two* non-canonical romances, and an 
entire host of rather, um, *floral* speculation thereabout.  Yes?

So.  It seems to me that what E.L.G.I.N.M.A.R.B.L.E.S. really needs 
to do, if it wants to pass itself off as Fanspec, is to present 
itself as the *key* to resolving a number of issues that canon has 
left disturbingly unresolved.  The principle under which we wish to 
operate here is what we might call the "Cherchez l Femme" Principle: 
namely, that *all* canonical mysteries can *only* be resolved by the 
addition of a romantic interest for one of the male leads.  That 
canon does not mention these romances -- or their major players -- is 
utterly irrelevant.  We *know* that they must exist, because only 
their existence will suffice to resolve canonical issues 
satisfactorily.  They are therefore actually *strongly* suggested by 
canon, and therefore legitimate grounds for speculation.  Quod Erat 
Demonstrandum.  You with me so far?

Good.  So let's first deal with the canonical evidence for the 
existence of Campanula, shall we?  We'll tackle Campanula first, 
because I like Campanula.  In my garden, Campanula hangs out right 
next to the front door, along with with our own list member Dicentra 
Spectabilis Alba's glamorous first cousin, Dicentra Spectabilis 
Rubra, as well as with her poor relation from the wrong side of the 
tracks, Dicentra Eximia -- thus, of course, finally answering my, er, 
*perennial* question: "Where Are All The Bleeding Hearts?"  

But I digress.  So.  Campanula, school-day sweetheart of Remus 
Lupin.  Have we evidence for her existence?

Yes!

<Elkins hauls a small and rather flimsy-looking canon out of one of 
her very deep pockets.  The canon is labelled "THE CASE OF THE 
WEREWOLF ON THE TRAIN."  She nods to herself and mounts it on the 
side of the barge, which immediately begins listing alarmingly to 
port>

Don't worry, Captain.  We'll balance that out with another one later 
one.

<stands back to evaluate the effect of the dull black canon on the 
pink frilly barge>

No.  Er...it doesn't really match, does it?  But that's okay.  We can 
paint big pink and red hearts on it later, if you like.

Okay.  Now we've all been wondering why Lupin was on the Hogwart's 
Express at the beginning of PoA, right?  Was he too ill to apparate 
to Hogsmeade without splinching himself?  Did Dumbledore ask him to 
be there to look after Harry?  Was it his own curiosity, could he 
just not resist the desire to get a sneak preview of James Potter's 
son?

NO!

No.  What we clearly must do here is CHERCHEZ!  We must cherchez 
'till our eyes fall right out of our sockets.  There was a woman 
involved.  There *must* have been!  A woman, and a very tragic 
romance.  After all, what other motivation does anyone ever have for 
doing anything?  Lupin *must* have been on that train to see a Lost 
Love.

No other explanation will suffice.
  
So.  Who is Campanula?

<Elkins turns her canon around to reveal the writing on the other 
side, which reads "THE CASE OF THE TROLLEY WITCH'S SMILE.">

Isn't it obvious?  Campanula *must* be none other than the witch who 
operates the lunch trolley on the Hogwart's Express!

And I can *prove* it!

Now, the trolley witch is always smiling, isn't she?  She's smiling, 
she's cheerful, and she's plump.  (The plump is important, because we 
all *know* what sort of person would have had a crush on sickly 
teenaged Lupin, don't we?  That's right: it must have been a 
*maternal* girl.  A girl who wanted to fatten him up some.  A girl 
with a yen to take dear sweet Remus home and feed him some nice, 
warm, nourishing *soup.*  A girl who might well have grown up to be 
smiling, dimpled candy-trolley woman.)

But what happened to the lunch trolley witch's smile?  In Book One, 
we have:

"Around half past twelve there was a great clattering outside in the 
corridor and a smiling, dimpled woman slid back their door and 
said, 'Anything off the trolley, dears?'"

In the beginning of PoA, we have:

"At one o'clock, the plump witch with the food cart arrived at the 
compartment door. . . 'Don't worry, dear,' said the witch as she 
handed Harry a large stack of Cauldron Cakes.  'If he's hungry when 
he wakes, I'll be up front with the driver.'"

(You will note that, in this scene, the children refer to Lupin only 
as *Professor.*  They never once use his name in the trolley witch's 
hearing.  Keep this in mind, as it is significant.)

But look at what happens to our trolley witch next!  End of PoA:

"...when the witch with the tea cart arrived..."

Beginning of GoF:

"The lunch trolley came rattling along the corridor, and Harry 
bought a large stack of Cauldron Cakes for them to share."  

End of GoF:

"They broke off their conversation about what action Dumbledore might 
be taking, even now, to stop Voldemort only when the lunch trolley 
arrived."

Why, that trolley woman just never smiles or twinkles or maternally 
'dears' Harry *again,* does she?  She becomes...silent.  Sad.  
Brooding.

Clearly something *happened.*  Something between her appearance at 
the beginning of PoA and at the book's ending.  What became of the 
Trolley Witch's smile?

Well, isn't it obvious?  She encountered Lupin again, after the 
dementors boarded the train.  Lupin would have needed to talk to her, 
because he would have needed to get more chocolate for all of the 
children.  And I propose that when he did so, *that* was when our 
Campanula first recognized him not only as the same Remus Lupin she 
had loved and lost Lo So Many Years Ago, but also as the haggard, 
exhausted, prematurely-grey Professor she had seen in the compartment 
only an hour or so previous.  

Why, she hadn't even *recognized* him, so changed had he become from 
the boy she had once giggled over in the Gryffindor dormitory.  And 
he...well!  His smile had become...slightly  twisted, his speech 
patterns cool and lazy.  He had clearly aged badly, and in more ways 
than one.  Why, he'd gone all...all *Edgy!*  Horrors!

Oh, poor Campanula.  She knew that it must have been All Her Fault, 
for as we all know, Love of a Good Woman can smooth all edges and fix 
all ills.  It can even prevent the hair from going grey.  Campanula, 
clearly, had failed him.

And so the trolley witch woman never smiled again.

As for poor dear Remus...well!  He did indeed get to speak with 
Campanula, which of course *must* have been the only reason he was on 
that train to begin with.  But it was obviously no great comfort to 
him, because if it had been, then he wouldn't have given off that 
attractive whiff of Love Lost all through PoA, and he wouldn't have
hoards of adult readers lusting after him so.  

Yes, yes, yes.  Poor Remus.  Poor Campanula.
  
Now, as for Dimorphotheca...

<Elkins hauls yet another flimsy canon up to the starboard side of 
the barge.  This one is labelled "THE CASE OF VOLDEMORT'S WAND, 
PETTIGREW'S GRUDGE, THE RAT IN THE MILK JUG, AND THE AMIABLE 
CENTAUR."  The barge begins to list to starboard.>

Yes.  This one *is* a bit heavier.  You may want to find some way to 
bolster Campanula's case after this, just to even things out a bit.

Now, under the Cherchez Principle, we may legitimate posit 
Dimorphotheca's existence because to do so properly can resolve so 
very *many* canonical mysteries.  How did Sirius find Peter so 
quickly after the Potters' deaths?  What became of Voldemort's wand?  
When Peter escaped Hogwarts as Scabbers in PoA, why did he then run 
off to hang around Hagrid's hut, of all places?  And why on earth 
*is* this theory called E.L.G.I.N.M.A.R.B.L.E.S., anyway?

CHERCHEZ!

<Elkins pauses for a moment here to eye the refreshments.  She thinks 
longingly of those spicy Vienna Sausages they serve on board the Big 
Bang Destroyer, lets out a deep and soulful sigh, and then just grits 
her teeth and carries on>
 
Mmmmm, yes.  Cherchez indeed.  So obviously, we need a romance to 
explain these matters properly.  Nothing else will do.  So here we 
introduce Dimorphotheca.  And obviously we'll give her to...

<Elkins blinks, then very slowly smiles.  A twisted smile.  A lazy 
smile.>

To Peter.  

We'll give her to Peter.

<notices Charis' expression>

Hey, come on, now!  James has Lily, Remus has Campanula, and Sirius --
 as we all know -- is busy toying with Florence's affections behind 
the greenhouses.  And besides, what's so dreadful about Peter anway, 
huh?  Why doesn't Peter ever get any action?

Charis explains:

> (Incidently, Peter doesn't get a girlfriend just out of spite and 
> because, well, let's face it, who'd have him?)

<Elkins throws the Ever-So-Inaccurately-Named Charis a very cold look 
indeed>

I *see.*  *Well!*  

And you people always wonder why the poor little rat went bad?

Okay.  That's it.  That.  Is.  *It.*  My sense of group loyalty 
towards all of those of us who...well, who Learned The Truth At 
Seventeen, shall we just say, has now been invoked.  It's been 
invoked with a vengeance.  This time around, Peter's getting the 
girl.  

For a little while, anyway.

Besides, giving Peter the girl gives this backstory the internal 
tension, the conflict, the sense of tragedy that it so desperately 
needs.  It also makes it LOLLIPOPS-friendly, which I gotta tell you, 
you're really going to need in *these* waters.  That Tabouli can be 
just plain *vicious.*

So.  Dimorphotheca is dating little Peter.  

<Elkins notices that Charis is still glaring at her and sighs>

Okay, fine.  She was only dating him because Lily talked her into it, 
okay?  After all, you *know* how nice we're all starting to suspect 
that Canon Lily is -- and LOLLIPOPS Lily...well, she's even nicer, 
isn't she?  "Oh, Sirius, stop picking on poor Severus.  It's not 
*his* fault if he's weird and creepy and knows all of those curses.  
I'm sure that he's just misunderstood.  And besides, can't you see 
that he's just desperately *unhappy?*"  

Yup.  Lily's nice, all right.  The sort of girl who wants *all* of 
her best girlfriends neatly hooked up with her own boyfriend's 
buddies, so that someday maybe they can have a Great Big WEDDING 
together.  But she's not at all the sort of girl who would ever hook 
up one of her best girlfriends with a play-the-field sort of guy like 
Sirius, 'cause that would be just plain mean.  After all, look what 
happened to poor Florence!  So instead, she badgered Dimorphotheca 
into hooking up with Peter.  "Oh, do give him a chance, Morphie.  
He's really kind of cute, in his own way.  And he *likes* you.  And 
besides, you know he'll slim down once he hits his growth spurt."  
All that sort of thing.

<Elkins smiles to herself and begins humming softly, "So pity please, 
the ones who serve...they only get what they deserve...," then 
realizes that her smile is beginning to take on that lazy quality 
again and shakes her head.  She clears her throat>

Well.  Yes.  Right.  

So now we've got Peter and Dimorphotheca as an item.  But what 
happens once all the fallout from the Florence incident dies down?  

Well, Sirius begins looking for a more stable relationship, that's 
what.  He's tired of playing the field.  He's tired of those 
Slytherin girls with their creepy Dark urges and their disturbing hex-
manias.  No, he wants a *nice* girl this time around, a girl with not 
the slightest bit of twist to her smile, a girl that he could feel 
comfortable bringing home to introduce to Mother.  And so he sets his 
sights on Dimorphotheca.

Well, what do you think?  Short pudgy guy that your girlfriend only 
talked you into giving the time of day in the first place, or Dead 
Sexy Sirius Black?

Yeah.  Not much contest really, is there?  And this, you see, is what 
laid down the groundwork for the entire tragedy -- for as we all 
know, romantic rejection in ones early teen-aged years is the *only* 
reason that *anyone* ever has for going bad.  

Ever.  

Just ask Cindy.  She'll tell you that I'm right.

This, you see, helps to explain Peter's otherwise seemingly-
uncharacteristic malice in the muggle-blasting incident.  After all, 
it really does seem a strange way for Peter to have ensured his own 
safety, doesn't it?  He's not usually a particularly malicious 
person, nor a vengeful one.  We've never once seen him take any other 
violent action that is not either commanded or absolutely necessary 
to ensure his own survival.  When he makes his escape at the end of 
PoA, he doesn't even hurt Ron, even though Ron refused to speak in 
his defense in the Shrieking Shack.  He just stuns the kid, that's
all.  Peter just doesn't seem like the type to dream up the utterly 
vindictive wickedness of his frame-up job on Sirius.

Ah...but cherchez, don't you know.  Cherchez, cherchez, cherchez.

And this, in turn, explains how it was that Sirius was able to find 
Peter so quickly after the Potters' deaths.  Peter *wanted* to be 
found, you see.  He was just *dying* to get some payback for Sirius 
stealing his girl back when they were sixteen years old.

Charis moons over Dimorphotheca's angst:

> Think about it. All in one night she looses two of her best friends 
> allegedly because the man she loves (Ahhh!) ratted on them, only to 
> be informed a few hours later that he's being hauled off to prison 
> laughing his head off in true lunatic fashion for murdering another 
> good friend plus 12 innocent bystanders... 

Ah, but it's even worse than that!  The man she (thought she) loved is
being dragged off to prison for murdering not only a good friend, but 
her EX!  The boy she *should* have chosen.  The boy she threw over, 
for a handsome laugh and a Dead Sexy flying motorbike and a heart as 
black as coal.  

Oh, how shallow she must have been to allow external appearances to 
sway her judgement like that (she agonizes)!  How superficial, how 
base!  Why, she even found herself thinking Bad Things about that 
little tart Florence, just to justify Sirius to herself, when all the 
time he truly was a Very Bad Man.  A Man as Wicked As They Come, that 
Sirius Black.

Yes, yes.  Poor Dimorphotheca.

Now here is where I start to diverge really wildly from Charis' 
version of E.L.G.I.N.M.A.R.B.L.E.S.  In hers, the muggle-born 
Dimorphotheca retreats utterly from the wizarding world to resume a 
life of muggledom.

I say no.  No, no, no.  Perhaps she *thought* of doing that, but what 
actually happened was...

Well.  First let's get back to Voldemort's Wand, shall we?  People 
are always wondering about Voldemort's wand.  Where could Peter have 
hid it?  Is it possible that he had an accomplice?  Did he hand it 
over to one of the other Death Eaters sometime between the muggle-
blasting incident and his disappearance from sight?  And if so, then 
how did he get it *back* to give it back to Voldemort in GoF?  

Fear not, because E.L.G.I.N.M.A.R.B.L.E.S. can explain!

Of course Peter didn't have an accomplice among the Death Eaters.  
How could he have? Sirius claims that the DEs held him responsible 
for what happened at Godric's Hollow, and the DEs all certainly seem 
surprised and dismayed by Voldemort's return in GoF. Not one of them 
seems to be smirking to himself there in the graveyard, 
thinking: "Boy, Pettigrew really owes me one for giving him back that 
wand a few months ago."  Not one of them seems to be expecting Big 
Rewards from Voldemort for keeping his wand safe for the past 
thirteen years.

Nope.  Peter *did* have someone to keep the wand safe for him, but 
that person wasn't a Death Eater.  It was the deeply-grieved 
Dimorphotheca.

The way I figure it, he must have come crawling round her house just 
after Sirius' arrest and taken advantage of the poor girl's guilt by 
feeding her some marvellous tale about his Great Secret Battle 
Against the Forces of Evil.  "Tell no one I am alive: the Ministry is 
full of treacherous agents of Darkness.  Just *look* at that
Fudge, for example!  Evil as they come."  "Keep this mystic artifact 
safe for me and tell no one of its existence."  "When Mars burns 
bright in the heavens, I shall be called once more to battle Evil and 
shall return for it."  "Ouch!  Morphie, dearest, snookums, love-
bunny, darling...I do adore you, but could you *please* stop trying 
to bandage that?  I mean, it really really *hurts,* okay?"  And all 
that sort of thing.

This was before all those years spent as a rat muddled his mind, you 
see.  He actually used to be a really, really *good* liar.  And 
besides, dear Dimorphotheca...well, truth be told, she was never the 
brightest star in Gryffindor's firmament anyway.

So.  There's the E.L.G.I.N.M.A.R.B.L.E.S. answer to the Voldemort's 
Wand question.  Peter took it with him from Godric's Hollow; it 
transformed along with him when he made his animagus escape from 
Sirius; and he brought it to Dimorphotheca that night, which was the 
reason that he didn't have it with him anymore when he transformed 
back in Shrieking Shack.

But what happened to Dimorphotheca then, you ask?  Well...this is 
where we have to...

<strikes dramatic pose>

CUE THE CENTAURS!

Yes.  Of *course* there are centaurs!  How could there not be?  This 
theory *is* called E.L.G.I.N.M.A.R.B.L.E.S., after all, so we need 
centaurs.  

Besides, we've all been wondering about those centaurs, haven't we?  
What *is* their deal, anyway?  Why *were* they out in force that same 
night that Quirrel/Voldemort was on his unicorn hunt?  Is there any 
particular significance to Mars burning unusually brightly, other 
than as a generalized portent of war?  Why does Firenze seem so much 
more human -- and so much more human-friendly -- than the other two 
centaurs?  And just what secrets -- other than feral Fords and giant 
Spiders -- *might* the Forbidden Forest be hiding, anyway?

E.L.G.I.N.M.A.R.B.L.E.S. is here to save the day!

See, Dimorphotheca meant to stay faithful to dear Peter's memory.  
She really did.  But then came the fateful day when the centaurs 
descended in force upon that Hogsmeade wedding to carry off all the 
women for themselves.  

Because centaurs do that, you know. They're notorious for that sort 
of behavior.  That, in fact, is the reason that in canon we never see 
them anywhere *outside* of the Forbidden Forest.  The Wedding 
Incident was the Last Straw for the good people of Hogsmeade, who 
thereafter banished them to the forest.

Dimorphotheca was, naturally, serving as one of the bridesmaids at 
that wedding, 'cause she's just an always-the-bridesmaid sort of gal, 
and so she soon found herself dragged off to the Forbidden Forest as 
the prize of a strapping big centaur named, uh, Polygonatum.

Not much she could do about it, really.  But you don't have to worry 
too much about her: in time, she adjusted to her new life, settled 
down into a state of romantic bliss, and bore her centaur lover a 
son: Firenze.

Firenze is really only a *half*-centaur.  This fits nicely into 
canon's tendency to provide us with characters of mixed heritage, and 
it also explains why he's so friendly to humans, and why Bane gets so 
very cranky with him when he helps out Harry in his overly humanish 
way.  The other centaurs had been trying to train him *out* of that 
sort of behavior, you see.  Hence all of the crankiness, and all of 
the "such is not our way"-ness, and Firenze's own absolute refusal to 
answer Harry when Harry asks him why Bane was so angry.

As for Dimophotheca herself, on her deathbed (what, you think giving 
birth to a half-centaur is *easy?*  No, even the centaurs couldn't 
save the poor girl's life, but that's okay, because as we all know, 
dying in childbirth is both virtuous and romantic), she handed
Voldemort's wand over to the father of her son, telling him all about 
her Lost Love Peter Pettigrew, destined to return to fight the reborn 
Voldemort when Mars would burn bright in the heavens. She made him 
promise by all of the oaths that centaurs hold sacred to keep her 
secret, and to keep the wand, and to deliver it to the right person 
when the proper time came.  

Polygonatum ate this up, of course, because centaurs just *love* 
prophecies, and this one happened to coincide neatly with a number of 
their own: Voldemort returning when Mars would burn bright in the 
heavens, a man named "Grew-Petty" having some important role to play 
in the Dark Lord's return, the innocent always being the first to 
go...all of that.  Clearly, Dimorphotheca was telling them the 
truth.  (Hey.  Even centaur divination isn't a very reliable art, you 
know.)  They took the wand and kept it safe and hidden.

So *this* explains why all of those centaurs were out and about in 
the Forbidden Forest the night that Quirrel went unicorn hunting.  
Their mystic arts had told them that the Dark Lord's return was 
imminent, and so they were out looking for Pettigrew, to give him 
back that wand.  And this is the true significance of Bane's
admonitory "What have you been telling him?"  And of Ronan's "The 
Forest hides many secrets."  And of Hagrid's own "They're deep, mind, 
centaurs...they know things...jus' don' let on much."

This is *also* the reason that Pettigrew was hanging around in 
Hagrid's cupboard, instead of heading straight for the hills like any 
sane coward in his position would have done.  As he had been making 
his escape through the Forest, you see, he'd overheard the centaurs 
talking.  Talking about Dimorphotheca.  And about him.  And about the 
wand.  So he *had* to hang around the Forest.  He was trying to 
figure out just what it would take to convince those nutty centaurs 
to give the wand back to him.  And eventually, he did -- which 
is how he then managed to *retrieve* Voldemort's wand and to have it 
back in his possession by the beginning of GoF.

And *this* is the real reason that this entire theory is called 
E.L.G.I.N.M.A.R.B.L.E.S. in the first place.  Not only because the 
acronym worked out well that way, and not *only* because I myself 
seem to be losing my own marbles, but also because the entire plot 
*hinges* on the abduction of Dimorphotheca from the wedding at 
Hogsmeade.

<Elkins exhales hard and throws herself down on the divan in utter 
exhaustion>

There.  How's that?

Charis said:

> Therefore I would like to make it clear that 
> E.L.G.I.N.M.A.R.B.L.E.S. is offered with an open invitation for an 
> anarchistic carnage at it's expense. Wreak havoc guys!

<Elkins salutes wearily>

Always glad to oblige, Captain.  Oh!  Look!  Land!

<suddenly energized, she leaps to her feet and hops over the side of 
the barge, into the comfortingly knee-deep water>

Thanks for the lift, Captain Charis.  I hope that the new canons suit 
you.  Do feel free to redecorate them however you like.  They're 
yours now.


-- Elkins, wading wearily back to shore while muttering darkly to 
herself: "Never.  Never again.  Never again will I set foot on 
someone else's SHIP.  Never again am I leaving land.  Never, never, 
never, never, never..."






From fleurmellor at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 28 22:05:38 2002
From: fleurmellor at yahoo.com (fleurmellor)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 22:05:38 -0000
Subject: Sizing for a particularly delicate area
In-Reply-To: <001e01c1c09e$3568a220$3d74e280@cc.binghamton.edu>
Message-ID: <a5m9ji+p82h@eGroups.com>


Totally understand this Starling hun,
                                    I have a simalar prob, because i 
am nursing, all my bras are white, big and look soooo lovely on, i 
have never ever seen a coulored nursing bra, and even the crappy 
unfasionable while ones are stupidly expensive, i mean everone always 
goes on about using bright coulors to stimulate babies intelligence i 
bet they all get sick of staring at white cotton just before evry 
feed lol
Fleur
*:)*






--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "Starling" <starling823 at y...> wrote:
> Hello lovely ladies...
> 
> Ladies, some of you will sympathize with this, I hope.  Men, you 
can't
> understand my complaint.  Feel free to read, but you won't get it.
> 
> I cannot find bras.  I am, thanks to the delightful genetic code I 
got from
> my parents (and I'd gladly give this part back)  a DD cup.  I have 
been told
> so many times how "lucky" I am, and how many women spend millions to
> artifically achieve what I have naturally.
> Well, if so many women want a DD, why can't anyone sell decent bras 
for
> it?!??  I have to look high and low for one that fits.  Sometimes 
I'll get
> lucky and a manufacture will have made a generous D, sometimes I 
have go
> ::gulp:: go larger...  and it's always disgustingly expensive. I am 
a
> student, I can't exactly toss away $30 for one bra.  Not that many 
people
> see my underwear, either, but it would be nice to own something 
other than
> white.  I look at my collection, so to speak, and it has all the 
variety of
> someone's grandmother's.  (No offense to my grandma, although 
genetically,
> like I said, it's her fault...)  and Victoria's Secret, that holy 
grail of
> bra shopping, is a waste of my precious time.  They're  too small, 
too thin,
> and too expensive.
> What bewilders me, is how, in a nation that has always idolized 
women with
> big breasts, I cannot find something to hold them up.  I've debated 
writing
> my congressman to complain, even though I know he'd probably just 
stick the
> letter up on the wall for the amusement of the staff.
> 
> Shopping for shirts and blouses is also difficult.  I'll find a 
great
> blouse, only to find it doesn't button quite properly down the 
middle.
> Forget anything clingey.  I enjoy looking fashionable as much as 
the next,
> but it's incredibly hard to do when everything fits fine except for 
one
> rather noticable area.... ::glares in general direction of the 
mall::  I
> have a wedding to go to in late May, so I have to start searching 
for
> something *now*, and even then that's no guarantee that I'll find
> anything...
> 
> Honestly, I'd rather be short.  I could deal with short.  This, on 
the other
> hand, is a pain in the you-know-what ;-)
> 
> There, I've vented.  I feel better.  If I've ruined any male's 
delight in
> large-chested women (I'm told I've done that to several of my 
buds)...oops.
> :)  Sorry.
> 
> Abbie, who can easily spend $200 on a shopping trip entirely on 
necessities,
> and therefore never goes shopping
> 
> starling823 at y...
> "Harry, just go down to the lake tomorrow, right, stick your head 
in, yell
> at the merpeople to give back whatever they've nicked and see if 
they chuck
> it out.  Best you can do, mate."
>  -Ron, Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From skelkins at attbi.com  Thu Feb 28 23:25:57 2002
From: skelkins at attbi.com (ssk7882)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 23:25:57 -0000
Subject: girly whinge post
In-Reply-To: <a5l2l0+73gl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a5mea5+he11@eGroups.com>

Amy wrote:

> That would be because you're a WOMAN.  *fumes*  Honestly, haven't 
> these designers ever heard of hips?  They seem to expect us all to 
> be shaped like, well, men.  

<sigh>  I guess nobody's ever happy, huh?

I'm a woman, dammit, and I don't have hips.  What I've *got* is 
a big fat tummy and a big fat back.  You know that whole "waistline" 
concept?  That weird idea that there's supposed to be some sort of 
indentation at the waist?  Some strange concave contrivance where the 
waistband is supposed to go?  Well, I don't have one of those.  I go 
*out* there.  'Way out there.  You know that awful stereotype of the 
guy in the undershirt with the beer belly who sits in front of the 
tube all day?  Yeah, well, that's my body type.

What this means is that I've got the opposite of Cindy's problem.  If 
the waist fits, then there's all this extra...*stuff* bagging around 
down there.  And if the hips fit, then I'm looking back in dismay at 
the so-called "waistband," which is currently somewhere all the way 
behind my back because it won't even *make* it around my torso, and 
thinking dire thoughts about Barbie dolls, and corsets, and 
whalebone, and Scarlett O'Hara in the movie clutching her bedposts 
and gasping out "tighter...tighter..."

Nope.  There's just no winning, is there.

(Well...actually, for me, there's always the men's jeans option,
but that only works if you never have to "dress up."  If you're
expected ever to wear anything but jeans, then it doesn't work too 
well.  Fortunately, at this point in my life, the only time I'm ever 
called upon to get out of my slobby male drag is to attend other 
people's weddings.  And then I just resign myself to the Dowager 
look, because there's only one type of dress that doesn't assume 
either the existence of a waistline or the absence of a chest, and 
that's the Mumu.)

> Amy
> who would love to masquerade on line as a 5'8" chestnut beauty, 
> 38C-28-36, but would be laughing too hard to press Send

Well, Tabouli called me "leggy," so I've been wandering around with
a big smile on my face all day, entertaining myself by imagining all 
of you people sitting at home and scowling at the computer, just 
absolutely *hating* me for the grand super-model body you've been 
envisioning.  In fact, I was almost tempted to follow up with a "has 
anyone ever noticed how those awful clothing designers never provide
those of us with neither hips, bum, nor belly with *anything* decent 
to wear?" post...but decided against it, in the end.

<sigh>  Oh, well.  Being "leggy" was fun, while it lasted.


-- Elkins




From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Mon Feb 25 20:55:13 2002
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 20:55:13 -0000
Subject: Those nutty mods (was Almost TOO off-topic...)
In-Reply-To: <id.24022002171301.00000@FPE>
Message-ID: <a5e8bh+mnts@eGroups.com>

Jeralyn wrote:

> John wrote:  "...[snip of mods & elves e-mail addy and then:] 
> ... or magicalmods at y... (Mods only)..."
> 
> Okay, does my mind work in very strange ways, or did anyone else 
wonder for a split second why the mods chose as their e-mail 
address "magic almonds"?
> 
Oh, yes.  That's exactly how I saw it - and ribbed the mods about it 
offlist, sad person that I am.  They're starting to come out of their 
shell again after I cracked that one!

David

"You pay peanuts, you get house-elves"