From drednort at alphalink.com.au Sat Jun 1 00:55:06 2002 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 10:55:06 +1000 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Underachievement rates among those gifted children In-Reply-To: References: <00a701c206b3$aed4f5e0$d8c2ded1@huntleyl> Message-ID: <3CF8A80A.12958.7B239@localhost> On 29 May 2002 at 20:53, ssk7882 (Elkins) wrote: Elkins: > Now, admittedly I have no particular expertise in this field -- and > certainly none to match your own -- but I have done a bit of reading > on the subject as it is, for purely autobiographical reasons, one of > considerable personal interest to me, and I'd been rather assuming > that the source of your claim that 50% of the students in the top IQ > range "underachieve" was the 1991 VanTassel-Baska study. Correct me > if I'm wrong, but I'd been assuming that that was your main source. That's not the source - however it was one of the starting points. There's been a lot of new research done over the last 7 years, a fair amount of which hasn't been formally published yet - much to my chagrin, because I have written a chapter of one of the books that is sitting around waiting for publication (-8 I don't know the exact reasons for the delays - the papers and books are ready, and have often been accepted for publication - then they just sit there. But part of the impetus for all the recent work has been attempts to verify and clarify work done in the mid and late 1980s by people such as VanTassel-Baska, Winner, Rimm. As part of that definitions and ideas were examined, looking for bias, whether conscious or unconscious. In particular, in this area, discrepancies between Winner's work on emotional health among giftyed students, and Van Tassel's 'at-risk' study were noted. And so, new research has been done on underachievement using the definition I've given - a sample size of around 1400 students IIRC. That study isn't ready for publication yet - they'd like to double the sample size, and part of the study is intended to continue for at least another five years to study medium term effects, but it's found around half of all gifted children underachieve to at least a moderate level, under the definition I gave. It's not the same 50% group as identified in previous studies - but the numbers overall are similar. Elkins: > So *are* there, in fact, any studies that have used the definition > that you gave above as their standard, and then gone on to find > similarly high rates of underachieving among the top twentieth > percentile? I'm fairly sure that some details of the study I mentioned have been published in Roeper Review - but I'll need to check that next time I am at Melbourne University which may not be for a while. Most of the study hasn't been. And we don't use the top twentieth percentile. While 'gifted' doesn't have a totally firm definition, most academic research concentrates on a top 5%, 3% or 2% definition. Elkins: > So someone is an "underachiever" if he has failed to reach the goals > that he has set for himself? That seems a quite reasonable definition > to me. It does make me wonder, though, how you go about determining > whether the problem lies in the ability to achieve, or in the > original selection of goal? In other words, how can one rule out the > possibility that the child may not have simply set his sights a bit > too high in the first place? And how do you determine whether a > change in goal later in life is to be considered "legitimate" or to > be framed in terms of a symptom of the dread Underachievement > Syndrome? This is one area where testing comes in. Both 'ability' and 'achievement' tests are used to give an indication of where a child's realistic ability level lies. Then you compare it to their actual level of achievement. Minor discrepancies aren't considered important - an 8 year old capable of 9th Grade mathematics, who is doing 7th grade wouldn't be considered as underachieving - but if they were doing 4th grade, the possibility would be examined. Checks would be made to try and identify learning disabilities that might be having an effect, the child's desire to be working at a higher level would be assessed etc. If we could be confident that no LDs existed, and if the child wanted to work at a higher standard than they are, we'd be fairly sure there was an underachievement issue involved. That, in itself, wouldn't be a problem necessarily - unless it persisted, and was causing distress, *or* if we could clearly identify reasons it was occurring that needed to be addressed (for example, if a teacher is *preventing* the child advancing beyond a certain level without good reason). As for changing goals, we basically accept them as the child's right to change. If we think they are making a mistake, we may advise against it and explain why we think it's a mistake - but really it's their choice in the end, and our responsibility is to help it happen. Elkins: > So when my reaction to the statement that fifty percent (or perhaps > even more) of students in the very top percentile of the IQ range go > on to become "underachievers" was "Well, of *course* they do!" -- > well, I really wasn't speaking with my tongue in my cheek. What I > meant to imply there was that it is really only to be expected that > so many of us will hold very different ideas about what constitutes > an "appropriate" outlet for our efforts, and that this is likely to > be much of what then leads to our classification as "underachievers." Yes, these are very real problems. But part of the problem is that comparatively little research has been done into the 160+IQ group - EG/PG kids. There has been an assumption among many researchers that the 'gifted' are a discrete group with a huge commonality of needs and desires. And that assumption is simply wrong. But this has been changing - and groups like the GDC, Davison Foundation, etc, have been working to change it. There is research dating back to the 1940s on these issues - but a lot of it was ignored for over 40 years and is only recently being 'rediscovered'. Elkins: > Of course, I realize that your concern for this boy is that he might > lose his desire to learn. You say as much. But the terms "learning" > and "school" get sort of conflated in your statement, with "giving up > on school" and "losing the desire to learn" becoming viewed as almost > synonymous, and this strikes me as significant because I think that > it is very much the same conflation that leads to that definition > of "achievement" that I find so very troubling when it is applied to > the profoundly gifted. Part of the problem is that school is a reality we have to address. The vast majority of children are in school (although, interestingly, there's some evidence that half of all PG children are now 'homeschooled' - their parents have abandoned the 'education system' completely). For this kid, for reasons I can't go into because of confidentially concerns, taking this kid out of school is not an option (at the moment - we're working on that). I don't generally place 'schooling' and 'learning' as synonyms - but in this case, the schooling this boy is enduring is having a very negative impact on his desire to learn at all. He's beginning to hate mathematics, because his experience of it at school is so negative. What we want is really to just get that to 'neutral' rather than negative. Anything else would be a bonus. Elkins: > First, it worries me that if this kid does eventually decide, for > whatever reason, that his interests lie in some other arena -- > perhaps even in one much further outside of his particular domain of > specialty -- that this will be viewed as a symptom of failure. There > is often, in my experience, a sense that extraordinary precocity in > some particular field imbues one with a kind of *obligation* to adopt > that field as ones major focus of interest for the rest of ones > life. Indeed, it's usually the case when you are very young that > your particular area of talent strikes you as by far the most > intriguing or exciting -- sometimes for the simple reason that it's > really very gratifying to be so good at it, and to get all of the > praise and attention that goes along with that. As people get older, > though, the fields outside of their particular domains can start to > seem far more interesting -- sometimes because they are more > challenging, sometimes because they are new and exciting, sometimes > simply because people's interests do change as they get older. These are certainly valid concerns - but they are ones that the program I work in, and the research bodies who our work is based on - are well aware of, and try to avoid. We certainly do not view changing your interests as any type of failure - because, most of us, have done it ourselves. > Abandoning the field of interest that most interested you as a child, > however, is one of the primary behaviors that researchers have > identified as symptomatic of "prodigy burn-out," or of the > Underachiever Syndrome. I personally find this rather disturbing. Yes - and this is one of the primary reasons so much new research is being done, and new paradigms are being examined. We're moving away from 'external' goals except ones people create for themselves, and external measures of success, and our focus is on ensuring these kids grow up... well, happy. Take me - I had to endure a very inappropriate education - gifted education was extremely 'politically incorrect' where and when I was growing up. My experiences left me a clinical depressive between age 18 and 22 - probably a lot earlier than 18, that was the date of formal diagnoses, I was probably CD at 12. Many of the people involved in the research now are people like me, or the parents of kids like me - one of the top researchers into PG children, Professor Miraca Gross, was 'just a mother' 15 years ago, and quite a number of the academics involved came into this after parenting these kids. The primary desire is to ensure mental health - other stuff is less important, especially 'achievement' as measured by society in general. And a lot of us have changed our paths in life. I started out at University studying my childhood dream - Astronomy and Astrophysics. I changed over to Software Engineering, left uni in the middle of my degree to work on the Y2K bug, and have spent 3 years working IT - a job I find OK, but I'm not passionate about - I'm only doing it at the moment becasue the work I do is very specialised and not many people can do it, and it may save lives, so I haven't thrown it in yet - as of January, I doubt I'll be doing it anymore, because there will be people to replace me. And I'm likely going back to University to gain academic qualifications revolving around gifted kids (I've been offered free tuition and text books, etc, to do so - and while I don't think I need the paper qualifications, I love the idea of going back to university). I'd hardly regard changing your life's choices as a failure - and most of the people I know of, involved in advocacy for these kids, have changed at least once themselves. Elkins: >There is. I do find myself questioning, though, the assumption that > all of the purported cases of people's paths being cut off are really > that at all. Certainly it sometimes happens. The desire to learn can > be quelled, and it all too often is. But I cannot escape the > suspicion that many of the studies showing this problem as so > widespread -- afflicting fifty percent of the population, and so > forth -- are reaching those conclusions in part because they are > looking at all of the wrong things. That's certainly possible. No body of research can ever be considered perfect. But we try. And we look at the mistakes we've made in the past - and try to learn from them, and correct them if we can. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately |webpage: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) |email: drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil | Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From dradamsapple at yahoo.com Sat Jun 1 04:48:18 2002 From: dradamsapple at yahoo.com (dradamsapple) Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2002 04:48:18 -0000 Subject: no sense of humor.... In-Reply-To: <1A15DA3D53@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu> Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., Rachel Bray wrote: > ". . . as I passed the women again I asked, very > politely, I might add, "What's going on here today?" The > one woman practically sneered at me and said "Annointment." > I said "Annointment? Is that a Christian singing group?" > And the other woman said "No!" (like that was a horrific > thing to suggest) "It's Benny Henn Ministries!" > > Now....you already KNOW what I thought she said. So I > kinda looked at her confused and said "Benny....Hill?" > > I was lucky to get out of there with my life. > > Rachel Bray > The Ohio State University > Fees, Deposits and Disbursements > > LORD OF THE SNITCH > Three men form the chaser-squad under the sky > Seven are the teammates on their brooms of wood > Two are Bludger balls charmed to fly > One is the dork Ref all on his own > On the field of Quidditch where the Quaffles lie. > One Snitch flits over all, one grab will win it > One game may take three months, or may take but a minute > On the field of Quidditch where the Quaffles lie. > > http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm Oh my goodness!! Rachel! You just made my day (er, night, I guess)! When I first read your post, my eyes tricked my brain into thinking you said "Benny Hill" also. What a good belly laugh you gave me! That would be a sight; getting annointed by Benny Hill!! :+) Anna . . . From dradamsapple at yahoo.com Sat Jun 1 04:57:12 2002 From: dradamsapple at yahoo.com (dradamsapple) Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2002 04:57:12 -0000 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter]Entertainment Weekly & HP In-Reply-To: <20020531231714.56200.qmail@web14602.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., golden faile wrote: > > This weeks EW has Daniel Radcliffe on the cover with > the sword of Gryffindor and exclusive pics from COS. > Thought ya'll might be just a teeny bit interested in > this. > > Laila > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup > http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com YES! YES! YES! I actually just checked "The Leaky Cauldron" before I logged onto to Yahoo!groups; AWSOME PICTURES!! I can't wait to show my son tomorrow morning. I must say, the boys are looking quite handsome, and Hermiones' hair looks much more tame. (maybe she will come out with hair care products after CoS; my daughter could use them!) I'm so excited!! :) Anna . . . From macloudt at hotmail.com Sat Jun 1 08:33:57 2002 From: macloudt at hotmail.com (Mary Jennings) Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2002 08:33:57 +0000 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Send More Vibes! Message-ID: Our Goat bleated: >Two days before our flight back home to the Switzerland, our son >Evan came down with the chicken pox. And guess what: the airline >(Delta) takes *no* chicken pox cases, no excuses, period. Sue and >the kids have to stay put until he's non-contagious. > >Which means, I fly tomorrow - and leave Sue and the kids parked >with distinctly unenthusiastic relatives in Mississippi. And, of >course, since Delta doesn't have any of our particularly plebean >class of seats until the 18th of June, my wife and kids get to >keep said unenthusistic relatives company until then. Yech, what a nightmare, especially since Evan will be non-contageous within just a few days, when the scabs heal over. Of course the irony is that the poor boy's been contageous for a few weeks already. What a nightmare for your and your family, Mike...though I must admit to having a giggle at thought of your Mississippi relatives being inconvenienced. I should be sympathetic, though, as several of my relatives are oh-so-clever at inventing reasons to stay longer than originally planned. But a *genuine* reason like Evan's was never proposed! Meanwhile, vent all you want; that's what we're here for :) Best wishes to you all. Mary Ann (who thinks a thread on Travel Horrors would be very interesting indeed) _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat Jun 1 15:17:59 2002 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2002 15:17:59 -0000 Subject: Send More Vibes! In-Reply-To: <001901c208e5$9b4e2d00$751687ac@shasta> Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "Aberforth's Goat" wrote: Oh, poor Goat...that happened to a friend of mine. She got stranded in a Los Angeles hotel room with four-year-old twins. That was when she broke down and bought them the video game system she'd sworn they'd never have. She says it saved her sanity. Me, my mother was planning a cross-country car trip when she noticed I was looking a little off. She took me into the doctors office for a check-up. He was just telling her that there was "absolutely nothing wrong with this child" when I broke out in spots. I was still sitting on the examining table. "Oh my god! She's got chicken pox! Get her out of here!" "But," my mother asked, "can I take her to California?" "TAKE HER ANYWHERE! JUST GET HER OUT OF HERE!!" So, we drove to California. I was not allowed to go in any restaurants (this was before drive thru's) so I had to take all my meals in the car. With the dog. My brother would come out after a while with my order and something for Lady. People were more relaxed about leaving children by themselves in those days. Pippin From poco214 at comcast.net Sat Jun 1 17:54:41 2002 From: poco214 at comcast.net (poco214) Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2002 13:54:41 -0400 Subject: is Hermione gifted? Message-ID: <003001c20995$684318c0$e8c22744@jdover01.nj.comcast.net> With all the talk about gifted/PG children, does anyone think that Hermione is either gifted or profoundly gifted? Should there be a program for gifted magical students? Dana [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From poco214 at comcast.net Sat Jun 1 18:09:30 2002 From: poco214 at comcast.net (poco214) Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2002 14:09:30 -0400 Subject: Book Harry vs. Movie Harry Message-ID: <003901c20997$79bc7220$e8c22744@jdover01.nj.comcast.net> Since I watched the movie before reading the books, I see a mixture of book and movie characters. I picture Harry, Hermione, and Dumbledore differently, while Draco, McGonagall, Ron, and Hagrid are the movie actors with slight adjustments. Snape is not quite as handsome as Alan Rickman (too bad ^_^) I wish I had read the books before seeing the movie so I could have an unadulterated idea of how everyone looks, but then I might not have liked Dan Radcliffe as much, simply because of his hair and eye colors. Dana [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Sat Jun 1 18:37:39 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (grey_wolf_c) Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2002 18:37:39 -0000 Subject: videogames In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Pippin wrote (stress mine): > Oh, poor Goat...that happened to a friend of mine. She got > stranded in a Los Angeles hotel room with four-year-old twins. > That was when she broke down and bought them the *video > game system she'd sworn they'd never have*. She says it saved > her sanity. > > Pippin (going off a tangent) I've always wandered about this: what is this thing with parents and videogames? I've seen loads of examples of people raving about the wickedness of videogames (not unlike people raving about the wickedness of Harry Potter) for all my life, and I've never understanded what's wrong with them. Look at me: some of you know that English is not my first language. Nonetheless, it's very good (I've got an official paper saying that I'm proficient at English), and most of my vocabulary and forms of speech come from two places: books and video games, the second being much more vast than the first one. I may have some 40 English books (most of them, I know them by heart, and can recite passages from them, specially when looking for canon), but I've played over 100 videogames, most of them with the text-volume equivalent to a long novel. I can, for example, make accurate descriptions and comparisons between ancient weapons, explain combat movements and describe the sociopolitical structure of a middle-age's kingdom, and all of it because of videogames. It may seem useless, but any for of knowledge counts (incidently, does anyone know what exactly is a lochaber axe?). Not only that, they are an ACTIVE form of entertainment (unlike the TV), which means I haven't been idiotiziced into submission by the telly, instead I have a good hand-eye coordination, reflexes and enquiring, puzzle-solver mind. I may not get much exercise, but still I go out an hour a day for bike-riding (and walk to and from University). I rutinely get the best grades of my year, and it's normally laid down to the fact that I read a lot, but I have long suspected that the fact that I face logical and strategical problems in my videogames has helped me in pattern recognition and information pinpoint (knowing what's relevant and what's not), which is increadibly useful when faced with mathematical problems of the type I get at University. So, what are the arguments AGAINST videogames, and why haven't I turned into whatever you're fearing I'd might have turned into? Hope that helps, Grey Wolf, who hopes no-one takes this as a personal attack, since it's tone is maybe a little too strong From Joanne0012 at aol.com Sat Jun 1 19:12:31 2002 From: Joanne0012 at aol.com (joanne0012) Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2002 19:12:31 -0000 Subject: is Hermione gifted? In-Reply-To: <003001c20995$684318c0$e8c22744@jdover01.nj.comcast.net> Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., poco214 wrote: > With all the talk about gifted/PG children, does anyone think that Hermione is either gifted or profoundly gifted? Should there be a program for gifted magical students? I'm no expert, I only know what I needed to leran inorder to deal wtih my own kids. But I really like the following list, which I believe was developed as a hands-on-down-and-dirty wayt to help teachers differentiate between bright and gifted kids. According to this list, it might be Harry that's gifted, not earnest, hard-working Hermione. (Please accept my apologies in advance for any formatting mixups -- it's supposed to be columns that compare similar qualities in bright vs gifted.) Comparison of Bright vs Gifted Bright Child Gifted Child Knows the answers. Asks the questions. Interested. Extremely curious. Pays attention. Gets involved physically and mentally. Works hard. Plays around, still gets good test scores. Answers questions. Questions the answers. Enjoys same-age peers. Prefers adults or older children. Good at memorization. Good at guessing. Learns easily. Bored. Already knew the answers. Listens well. Shows strong feelings and opinions. Self-satisfied. Highly critical of self (perfectionistic). From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat Jun 1 20:33:05 2002 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2002 20:33:05 -0000 Subject: videogames In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "grey_wolf_c" wrote: > Pippin wrote (stress mine): > > Oh, poor Goat...that happened to a friend of mine. She got > > stranded in a Los Angeles hotel room with four-year-old twins. > > That was when she broke down and bought them the *video > > game system she'd sworn they'd never have*. She says it saved > > her sanity. > > > > Pippin > > (going off a tangent) > I've always wandered about this: what is this thing with parents and videogames? > > Grey Wolf, who hopes no-one takes this as a personal attack, since it's tone is maybe a little too strong No offense taken :-) This was, first of all, about fourteen years ago. I just got a high school graduation announcement for the twins, so apparently the video games didn't hurt them. I think, though, parents feel a little guilty any time the kids are parked in front of the TV. Some electronic baby sitting is okay, but I know from experience that kids who watch too much or play games all day can get really withdrawn and cranky. That's part of it, plus the sound effects can really get on your nerves. I agree with what you said about the positive side of gaming. The games are fun. They are so much fun that it can be hard to set limits, which is a lot of what parents do. Little ones really do need to get outside, run around, experience conflict and friendship with real people and deal with problems that can't be solved by beating the Boss and getting to the next level. As long as kids don't get shortchanged of that, I've got no problem with games. Pippin From kerelsen at quik.com Sat Jun 1 20:58:33 2002 From: kerelsen at quik.com (Bernadette M. Crumb) Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 16:58:33 -0400 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: videogames References: Message-ID: <003001c209af$19c71740$3821b0d8@kerelsen> ----- Original Message ----- From: "grey_wolf_c" > (going off a tangent) > I've always wandered about this: what is this thing with parents and > videogames? I've seen loads of examples of people raving about the > wickedness of videogames (not unlike people raving about the wickedness > of Harry Potter) for all my life, and I've never understanded what's > wrong with them. SNIP > So, what are the arguments AGAINST videogames, and why haven't I turned > into whatever you're fearing I'd might have turned into? > > Hope that helps, > > Grey Wolf, who hopes no-one takes this as a personal attack, since it's > tone is maybe a little too strong I don't have anything against videogames per se, but I HATE the obnoxious noises most of them make. I also have problems with some of the more violent and gory ones, but I can control that by paying attention to what makes my kids uncomfortable when they watch videos or TV, and make sure they aren't playing something that could give them nightmares. I think they are great for hand/eye coordination and for teaching a child how to react quickly to changing requirements... but the bloody "beep-beep" and "boop-boop" noises that most of the games that my children play at their friends' and cousins' houses literally drive me to screaming fits.... In my case it's because I'm extremely sensitive to sounds in certain frequency ranges (while totally lacking the ability to hear in certain other ranges) which seems to be right in the middle of what the manufacturers put in the games. Games like CIVILIZATION, PHAROH and any of the SIM games are fantastic because we don't HAVE to put the sound and music on, and we can still enjoy them. I prefer the computer games too, because I don't have to pay a fortune for a "Nintendo Whatever" or a "Gamebox Whatever"... and I don't need to worry about my kids fighting over whether the TV is used for the games or for watching DVDs. :) Play the games, but if I'm around, please turn down the sound! Bernadette (Who caught another bit of her hearing range vanishing yesterday... listening to the stereo in the car, perfectly balanced left, right, front, rear... and the sound from the right side of the car abruptly halved in volume...and it wasn't the car stereo. *shudder*) "Friendship is unnecessary, like philosophy, like art. It has no survival value; rather it is one of those things that give value to survival." -- C.S. Lewis (1898-1963). From dalesian at shaw.ca Sat Jun 1 23:59:20 2002 From: dalesian at shaw.ca (Teri Gardner) Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2002 16:59:20 -0700 Subject: New Person - howdy! In-Reply-To: <1022926769.633.62610.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020601165608.009e9630@shawmail> Hello, Just thought I'd stop by and introduce myself. The name is Teri and I'm fairly new to HP fandom. I've been reading the lists and all for HP4GU for a few weeks and have decided to jump in and get my feet wet. Not much to tell about myself really, but thought I would pop in here and say hello. Teri From drednort at alphalink.com.au Sun Jun 2 00:54:54 2002 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 10:54:54 +1000 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] is Hermione gifted? In-Reply-To: <003001c20995$684318c0$e8c22744@jdover01.nj.comcast.net> Message-ID: <3CF9F97E.10236.9B8AC4@localhost> On 1 Jun 2002 at 13:54, poco214 (Dana) wrote: > With all the talk about gifted/PG children, does anyone think that Hermione is > either gifted or profoundly gifted? Should there be a program for gifted magical > students? Hermione is definitely gifted, IMHO, and that of many other people involved in advocacy. She fits the profile of a gifted kid who has received fairly appropriate education reasonably well, and part of the reason she likes Hogwarts and her lessons there so much may be that they are challenging her in new ways. The puzzle with the bottles in PS/SS is a fairly classic logic problem of the type used in some tests - a very advanced one for an 11 year old to solve in her head. Harry also fits another gifted profile - he's less interested in academic work, but certainly seems capable, and he does seem to have an inquiring mind, etc. If I wanted to get psychological (-8, I'd suggest that part of the reason he has less interest in academic work is the likelihood he was not challenged before he went to Hogwarts - somehow I doubt the Dursley's took much interest. He also has Quidditch, and other things in his life, as real priorities. Ron could very easily be gifted as well - it's not incredibly obvious, but giftedness quite often isn't. Skill at Chess shows some logic skills are likely. Being a younger brother in a large family can tend to 'disguise' giftedness to an extent. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately |webpage: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) |email: drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil | Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From triner918 at aol.com Sun Jun 2 02:18:23 2002 From: triner918 at aol.com (triner2001) Date: Sun, 02 Jun 2002 02:18:23 -0000 Subject: Help wanted! Message-ID: Hi y'all! It's me again, School is out for the summer and I survived another IEP season, as well as the pack up of the room. All our rooms are being renovated this summer (to be done by August 1--we'll see about that) so *everything* had to be packed up. And they started the demolition before we left! Earlier today, in what can only be described in a Moment of Insanity, I bought a coconut. I read the directions "to prepare coconut" and followed through. Or rather, I *attempted* to follow through. I knocked a hole in the eye and drained the milk with no problem. It was with the step "Tap shell sharply on groove with hammer, revealing white flesh within" that I had problems. I tapped sharply. Nothing. I banged the hell out of it. Nothing happened, outside of a lot of noise and frightening the cats. So, does anyone have any ideas? Trina, who has also felt the scorn of the Smug Married... From huntleyl at mssm.org Sun Jun 2 01:51:00 2002 From: huntleyl at mssm.org (Laura Ingalls Huntley) Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 21:51:00 -0400 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] movie pics References: Message-ID: <008b01c209d7$f23e8f40$d8c2ded1@huntleyl> Mmm..I'm just wondering how Ginny managed to get the writing that far up on the wall.. And who is Draco's friend there, and why is he so darn attractive *coughs* I mean, in a preppy, gonna-be-the-owner-of-a-corrupt-corporation-when-I-grow-up kind of way... I though that all Slytherins Are Ugly? Although the other kid as sufficiently..well, as someone who had seven years of them, let me just say that braces would do him alot of good... laura [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jenP_97 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 2 05:16:08 2002 From: jenP_97 at yahoo.com (jenP_97) Date: Sun, 02 Jun 2002 05:16:08 -0000 Subject: Help wanted! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "triner2001" wrote: > Earlier today, in what can only be described in a Moment of > Insanity, bought a coconut. I read the directions "to prepare > coconut" and followed through. Or rather, I *attempted* to > follow through. I knocked a hole in the eye and drained the > milk with no problem. It was with the step "Tap shell sharply > on groove with hammer, revealing white flesh within" that I > had problems. I tapped sharply. Nothing. I banged the hell > out of it. Nothing happened, outside of a lot of noise and > frightening the cats. > Hi, Trina. I LOVE fresh coconut, and used to pester my dad to buy one every time we went to the store. Now that I do my own shopping, I tend to forget that I did this. ;) Anyway, just keep banging away at it. In fact, you've probably opened it already. If you have a chisel of some kind, you can bang on that with the hammer, but it's not really necessary. Try to bang it on a hard surface. Another note: the coconut will taste better if you take it out of the shell (the outer husk, anyway... you can leave the inner shell on the white flesh) and toast it at a low temperature in the oven for at least a half an hour, if not a whole hour. The water will evaporate from the meat, leaving a much more concentrated flavor, and it'll make it a LOT easier to get that last bit of shell-skin off. Toasting also brings out more of the "coconutty" flavor - it's really yummy. It also makes it easier to shred/grate. Just don't burn it. That's easier than you would think - it's got lots of sugar in it, which can caramelize and burn if your oven is too high. Jen, store of useless knowledge and trivia, who is also glad that someone else thinks that Draco's quidditch teammate is cute... but don't tell her husband. ;) From tabouli at unite.com.au Sun Jun 2 06:03:35 2002 From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli) Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 16:03:35 +1000 Subject: Gifted Children: An unsubstantiated psychological assessment Message-ID: <007b01c209fb$59fa1c80$1d27ddcb@price> Elkins: > I was always under the impression that "underachiever" meant "somebody who has prioritized their values very differently than I have, and in a way that makes me feel upset and threatened< Elkins (later post): > So someone is an "underachiever" if he has failed to reach the goals > that he has set for himself? That seems a quite reasonable definition > to me.< I think this is the crux of the problem, and what I was alluding to with my earlier comments on gifted children being picked out as being Destined For Greatness. The tension between the definition of achievement and "fulfilment of potential" that well-meaning but flummoxed educators/parents impose on the child, and the child's own aspirations and perceptions and personality. You see, the poor child is at a bit of a disadvantage here. Even the most gifted of children doesn't have access to much information about what happens in the adult world where s/he is predicted to be such a success. In fact, I also suspect that most (not all, but most) of the educators trying to help the child typically don't know much about how someone really ends up becoming a Nobel prize winning nuclear physicist or brilliant world-changing political leader or whatever. Who does? They just pick out some roles which to them indicate overwhelming "success" and "intelligence" in their society as examples of the glories the child could achieve, without being able to give the child a realistic idea of what has to happen in between. Encourage the child to Think Big. So OK, let's say the child looks around and tries to figure out where s/he wants to apply this genius s/he apparently possesses. What is the child likely to find? Information on extremely famous and celebrated people in the child's fields of interest, yes, the Nobel prize winners, the rich and famous, the people that changed the course of history. These people then become the child's definition of "success". Anything less becomes, in the child's eyes, "underachieving". (I'm not saying this happens in every case, but I've certainly seen it. I also went to a seminar on this very subject at Melbourne University a year or two ago, which presented research on IQ and self-esteem and noted that while children of above average IQ generally had above average self-esteem, there was a dramatic drop in self-esteem among children of very high IQ, and the research suggested that this was because these children were using a different basis for measuring their achievements). The problem being that while gifted children may be 1 in 5000, people who go on to become incredibly successful and influential are far, far, fewer. It takes more than giftedness, it take effort, it takes resourcefulness, it takes being in the right place at the right time. The chances of the child actually attaining so stratospheric a level of "success" are, in fact, pretty small. Perhaps the mid-teen crisis I mentioned earlier is the point at which the child recognises that the path to greatness ain't quite as smooth and guaranteed as s/he was led to believe. I mean, take Nobel prize winning research. These days, you'd probably need to spend at least 5-10 years at university before being in a position to do anything Great. That's a long time in an education system you've to date found boring and frustrating. And so on. OK, so gifted children aren't stupid (:D). They figure this out soon enough. But what do they do then? Elkins, quoting me: >> At this point, there seems to be a split. Some gifted children >> bite the bullet and grudgingly apply themselves to working within >> the system. And excel. Others seem to hit a point of >> disillusionment with the whole education process and more or less >> resign from it. > >And then there are those of us who bite the bullet, learn the trick of actually working for things, grudgingly accept the fact that sometimes you really do have to work within the system, and then in the end leave it anyway, because we eventually come to the realization that what the system has to offer wasn't actually what we wanted in the first place.< > >Others tend to think that we have failed to "excel." OK, I did put that too simplistically. What I should have said was around puberty or shortly afterward there seems to be a paradigm shift, and what happens at this point is crucial. For external observers, a common (though not universal) manifestation of this paradigm shift is that the child suddenly ceases to "achieve" in the domains where s/he was previously achieving effortlessly. What's going on in the child's head is less easy to determine. Don't know what research has been done here, but I'd guess what's happening in there is harder to access. Qualitative research, maybe? I wonder how willing or even able your typical gifted child would really be to explain to an interviewer what has caused the change. I'll bet they get the school counsellors out in force when Junior Genius suddenly slumps, but how many gifted teenagers would really be prepared to tell them why? They may not know themselves, not really (probably more EQ than IQ, this sort of insight?). I dunno. Just can't be bothered any more, it seems pointless. After years of being held up as superior to other people they often, alas, have difficulty respecting other people who are almost certainly "inferior" to them (one gifted guy I know was going to a much-needed psychiatrist but was convinced he had far more intelligence and insight than said psychiatrist and therefore treated his sessions like an intellectual power game. No idea what the psychiatrist made of this). I'd guess what's actually going on is that the child has begun to question the imposed definition of "achievement" (often triggered by the sudden onset of Effort Required). Some decide to keep playing the game, for a range of reasons, some decide they've had enough and rebel, resign, or drastically change direction, to the chagrin of the imposers. Some, as Elkins mentioned, keep playing the game until they can get some measure of independence and then chuck it in. So then what happens? My anecdotal impression is that when you've spent the first 12-16 years of your life being proclaimed a genius superior to other mortals, it's pretty hard to let go of. By then it's already become a central pillar of most gifted children's self-esteem, especially seeing they usually have social difficulties which erode their self-esteem in other areas. I suspect many of the gifted children who keep playing the game do so for this very reason: with minimal effort, the education system will keep providing self-esteem stroking evidence of their superiority, on which they become very dependent. The path is rockier for those who rebel with conviction. For a start, as we've discussed, the typical reaction of the parents and educators is horror. What's happened to you? You're *underachieving*! Very stressful, because the child is actually dependent on said adults. But also stressful because if the child rejects intellectual superiority as a valid measure of worth, what replaces it in their identity? What do they have left? If the child is lucky, s/he will find something else which isn't too self-destructive (computers, role-playing, art, I've known a few who made it to university and then flung themselves into the SCA, etc.). If not, things can get very ugly indeed. Crime. Suicide. Substance abuse. Mental illness. Often coupled, at least in my observation, with desperate clinging to the belief that they are, nonetheless, still superior beings, they're just not prepared to make the compromises lesser individuals make to claim the glory which could easily be theirs if they could just decide on the direction in which they want to apply their genius. And plagued by a inner terror that perhaps they're actually *not* superior after all, perhaps they actually *wouldn't* achieve glory if they applied themselves (and hence they'd better not apply themselves just in case), and, often, a horror of growing older, as every passing year takes them further from the system which lauded them without the great achievements they had been told were awaiting them afterwards (except that they'd *rejected* that, hadn't they? But then, what do I have left?). Deep, deep inner conflict, self-destructive behaviour, etc.etc. OK, so perhaps in those last few points my sample size has dwindled to two specific male case studies. And there do seem to be notable gender differences (thoughts, Shaun?). But the similarities between the two case studies was disturbing, especially given how different the two men were in other ways. And, given that both people in question are ex-boyfriends of mine and I am a sinister social scientist, I got a frighteningly in-depth psychological profile on both of them. When I witnessed the first one (definitely profoundly gifted, and in more domains than academic achievement: also in sport, drawing, writing, languages, you name it) I thought he was a one-off. It was the second one exhibiting exactly the same behaviour and thinking patterns that really alarmed me (on my own behalf as well - what is it with me and men like this?). I then started thinking about the other purportedly "gifted" people I know and have known, my father, myself, my peers in the gifted class at school, various of my friends and acquaintances, and was disturbed to recognise elements of the same pattern cropping up over and over again. The weird superior-inferior self-esteem profile. The mid-teens crisis. The conflicted feelings about their "underachieving" or, conversely, the desperate, desperate need to "achieve". An example of an "achieving" gifted child was someone from my Honours Psych class. Very very bright, very very insecure. Used to have these odd conversations in which he would collect evidence of his superiority to others in everything from university marks and IQ scores to the expression in people's eyes. I visited him once and he had put copies of his academic transcripts and university prizes all over his bedroom walls. No prizes for guessing the central pillar of his self-esteem. He came second, instead of first in the class that year, and was practically suicidal. Another "achieving" gifted child I know was put on the Dean's list for top 20 Arts students and bounced around beaming radiantly for weeks, telling everyone three or four times, mentioning it in every conversation, and then went into crisis when she failed to get a first in one of her subjects the following year. I myself am of this ilk. My trick is being very messy and disorganised and leaving everything to the last minute so I *always* have an excuse for not being brilliant at everything, you see. I don't deal with "failure" (i.e. not doing brilliantly) at all well. I was lucky enough to *get* a special gifted education program, and I still have a lot of the tendencies I observed in my two exes. (Fortunately, I've finally rebelled with conviction, and at an age where I'm no longer dependent on the people who disapprove). How would people like these come out in the "gifted children" follow-up study stakes? Probably fine. So long as they're getting results they consider acceptable (i.e. extremely high) they come across as fine. They're "achieving" in a socially applauded domain of endeavour. But how healthy are they really? (well, how healthy is anyone really, but anyway). As healthy as can be hoped for? I think there's a very important issue which, to the best of my knowledge, hasn't been explored enough and this is the child's *identity*. Self-image. It's the putting all your eggs in one basket problem. If you single a child out on the basis of IQ and everything that happens thenceforth revolves around being intellectually superior to others, the child is being taught that intellectual superiority is his or her defining feature. That it's everything. Their role is intellectual achievement, and if they don't get it, they are a failure as a person. If they try to reject this role, they tend to be judged as failures and malingerers while they search for other roles, and if they don't find one they can adopt instead, the results can be horrible. My thoughts (for what they're worth without extensive research into the area!) are that gifted children should be encouraged to *diversify*. Given the opportunity to find roles other than "intellectually gifted" to play, preferably outside school, so that their self-esteem can be spread a little more widely. Acting. Dancing. Drawing. Sport. Whatever. Something that they and other people can define them by which isn't related to their high IQ. As an example, I took up karate in my early twenties, and by jingo it was good for me. A domain of endeavour where intellectual ability was not going to get me very far. Where I might manage to be good, but would never be exceptional. Where there would always be a lot of people Better Than Me, and I had to learn it was actually OK to be ordinary (Embarrassingly, I struggled with this after a lifetime of indoctrination, but my sinister social scientist went to work on my reactions and found them a very interesting addition to my musings on gifted children). Now admittedly, the way the education system is set up makes this very difficult. The way it works defines gifted children by their "giftedness" by default. I think one of the advantages of putting gifted kids together, (though it still means defining them by their giftedness) is that at last each individual isn't being defined by everyone as The Smart Kid, and they get the chance to define themselves by other things. OK, I'm bracing myself. Hit me with the research and counter examples and completely different personal experiences... Tabouli. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lupinesque at yahoo.com Sun Jun 2 11:10:54 2002 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (lupinesque) Date: Sun, 02 Jun 2002 11:10:54 -0000 Subject: Gifted Children: An unsubstantiated psychological assessment In-Reply-To: <007b01c209fb$59fa1c80$1d27ddcb@price> Message-ID: Tabouli wrote: >It's the putting all your eggs in one basket problem. If you >single a child out on the basis of IQ and everything that happens >thenceforth revolves around being intellectually superior to others, >the child is being taught that intellectual superiority is his or her >defining feature. That it's everything. Their role is intellectual >achievement, and if they don't get it, they are a failure as a >person. My only quibble with the rest of your profile (other than that it gave a chilling assessment of some problems besetting myself and plenty of other people I've known) is its place in the context of the original thread, which was about the validity and value of intelligence testing and in particular, the label of "gifted" or "profoundly gifted." In that context, you seem to be suggesting that the labels themselves are the problem, when in fact the problems you describe come from other factors: parents' and teachers' overemphasizing this one label, the child being given no realistic models but only Nobel winners and other certified lucky geniuses, the message being sent that people who don't measure up in this narrow definition of intelligence are inferior to him/her (your brilliant ex may have been right that his therapist wasn't as bright as him in this regard, but perhaps the therapist was a lot *more* intelligent about emotional issues and had something to offer, hm?). I'm not a fan of telling children their IQs, or indeed even testing for them, but I don't believe that doing so automatically equals teaching them that intellectual superiority is their defining feature, any more than telling them that they have tremendous talent at the piano teaches them that their defining feature is musical talent, or telling them they're the best Seeker in years teaches them that their defining feature is Quidditch talent. Plenty of parents manage to convey to their children that they are brilliant in some way or another, without also conveying that this brilliance is "everything." I agree with your recommendation, therefore--with apologies to Thoreau, "Diversify, diversify." And while we're telling kids their *many* talents, we might also affirm that their worth comes from other attributes such as being loving, patient, honest, kind, etc., or even (gasp) that it is inherent in being human, and not contingent at all. Amy From catlady at wicca.net Sun Jun 2 14:15:37 2002 From: catlady at wicca.net (catlady_de_los_angeles) Date: Sun, 02 Jun 2002 14:15:37 -0000 Subject: Gifted Children - Tabouli thread - admittedly my issues In-Reply-To: <007b01c209fb$59fa1c80$1d27ddcb@price> Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "Tabouli" wrote: > the child is being taught that intellectual superiority is his or > her defining feature. That it's everything. Their role is > intellectual achievement, and if they don't get it, they are a > failure as a person. Better than having one's model-type looks as one's only value: the looks fade younger than the intelligence does. Seriously: A friend told me an anecdote about some cousin of hers who was so amazingly good-looking, at age 16, that when they wanted to be jumped to the head of the queue or other special service, they would tell her to lean out the car window (thus luring the (male) attendents to try to please her), and this cousin had decided that she would commit suicide on her 21th birthday because she couldn't stand to get 'old and ugly' and no longer get such special attention. Self-pityingly: I remain convinced that the low self-esteem was caused in the very early grades, not in the mid-teens or adulthood, and was caused by being universally hated, reviled, and criticised by the people from regular school and neighborhood, not by criticism of one's adult life-style. > My thoughts (for what they're worth without extensive research into > the area!) are that gifted children should be encouraged to > *diversify*. Given the opportunity to find roles other than > "intellectually gifted" to play, preferably outside school, so that > their self-esteem can be spread a little more widely. Acting. > Dancing. Drawing. Sport. Whatever. Something that they and > other people can define them by which isn't related to their high > IQ. IE forced by parents to do things that one is no good at (and often not interested in), so that one can fail over and over, and be terribly frustrated, and be mocked and taunted, and then go home to parents ranting about you not trying hard enough. (This applies to looking good and being popular as well as the things you listed.) Don't all parents, not just those of gifted children, demand that their children accomplish Great Things that the parents can brag about, due (I believe) to the parents not having any accomplishments of their own to brag about. Okay, 'any' is an exageration, but 'not enough' didn't work in that sentence. I strongly suspect that a lot of people who weren't gifted children have self-esteem problems, or otherwise there wouldn't be so many self-help books about self-esteem all the time. Surely a great deal of it is about looks, but surely another great deal of it is about achievements/wealth ... didn't you, Tabouli, recently post some speculation about whether the word 'ordinary' being a condemnation has something to do with the competition aspect of individualism culture? From lupinesque at yahoo.com Sun Jun 2 17:59:35 2002 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (lupinesque) Date: Sun, 02 Jun 2002 17:59:35 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: Chat today Message-ID: Hi all, If you'd like to chat with your brother- and sister-HPfGUers, come on down to the chatroom: www.hpfgu.org.uk/chat. It begins at 7 Greenwich Mean Time, that is, 90 seconds ago. Amygeist From nobradors at hotmail.com Sun Jun 2 22:41:45 2002 From: nobradors at hotmail.com (nuriaobradors) Date: Sun, 02 Jun 2002 22:41:45 -0000 Subject: Help needed Message-ID: I'm writing a HP fanfic and I need to know from when to when Christmas Holidays take place in the UK. is there any brit friend around who can help this damsel? Betas will also be welcome! Thanks froom now! Nuri From cindysphynx at comcast.net Mon Jun 3 03:00:55 2002 From: cindysphynx at comcast.net (cindysphynx) Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 03:00:55 -0000 Subject: Gifted Children - Tabouli thread - admittedly my issues In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Tabouli wrote: > > My thoughts (for what they're worth without extensive research into > > the area!) are that gifted children should be encouraged to > > *diversify*. Given the opportunity to find roles other than > > "intellectually gifted" to play, preferably outside school, so that > > their self-esteem can be spread a little more widely. Acting. > > Dancing. Drawing. Sport. Whatever. Something that they and > > other people can define them by which isn't related to their high > > IQ. Catlady wrote: > IE forced by parents to do things that one is no good at (and >often not interested in), so that one can fail over and over, and >be terribly frustrated, and be mocked and taunted, and then go home >to parents ranting about you not trying hard enough. Yes, but . . . Yes, but . . . Doesn't it build character to some extent for a child to learn that they won't excel at everything? What a sad thing it is for a child or adult to be afraid of trying new things because they fear that they will not be the best! In almost every recreational activity, there are non-competitive or less competitive ways to participate, after all. On balance, I'd say it is preferable to encourage/cajole/force kids to try new things than it is to let them settle in to one thing too early. They needn't be ridiculed if they aren't that great at the new things that are outside their comfort zone. But they should learn what it feels like to be outside their comfort zone, and they should be helped to cope with those feelings. 'Cause they are going to have to cope with those feelings some day. Catlady: > Don't all parents, not just those of gifted children, demand that > their children accomplish Great Things that the parents can brag > about, due (I believe) to the parents not having any >accomplishments of their own to brag about. Okay, 'any' is an >exageration, but 'not enough' didn't work in that sentence. Do "all parents" demand that their children accomplish Great Things that the parents can brag about? Well, I don't know everything, but I know that the answer to that question is "No." "All" parents do not do this. Bent parents do this. Some of us genuinely want our kids to find their way in the world and grow up happy and well-adjusted. We are pleased when they do well in something, true. But it isn't always about bragging rights. It is the hope that the child's success in Whatever-It-Is that they are doing well will lead them to be happy and well- adjusted as opposed to confused and riddled with self-doubt. There's also the fact that a child's success in something often (but not always) causes the child to be happy, if even for a short time. And seeing your child happy is a bit of a rush, I must admit. Besides, bragging about the accomplishments of the fruit of one's loins is kinda tacky. ;-) Cindy From awillia2 at gladstone.uoregon.edu Mon Jun 3 06:42:13 2002 From: awillia2 at gladstone.uoregon.edu (Aesha Williams) Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 23:42:13 -0700 Subject: Hi! I'm new! Message-ID: <001201c20ac9$cbd78a80$91d0df80@hppav> Hi everybody! I joined the "motherlist" the other day, and since I can't post an introductory email there I figured I'd have to join here. I don't really feel as though I'm part of a list if I haven't introduced myself. That having been said, my name is Aesha. I'm 22 and a student at the University of Oregon, Eugene, Oregon, USA. I've lived in Eugene almost my whole life so it's kind of handy to have a university here just a few miles away. I'm technically undeclared, but hope to major (eventually!!) in music, most likely music business. I first heard of Harry Potter a few years ago- I think it was actually just a couple of months before the GoF came out. Well, actually, I'm not sure- I have a friend who worked at a bookstore, so she may have told me about the "HP phenomenon" before GoF came out. Anyway, I hadn't read them but she said she was going to, because she wanted to know what all the fuss was about. I didn't read SS until... I guess it was November of last year, and was finished with the first three a week or two before Christmas, which was good timing since I got GoF for the holiday. I've read all of the books at least a couple of times- I think SS and PoA 3 times; at any rate, I'm reading SS again. I think I've only read CoS once, maybe twice, because it's not really my favorite. It seems a little like it deviates from the rest of the series- I don't know why. I'll have to read them again in order, now. I didn't realize there was such a huge fan base of adults for the series. I didn't join the list until after I bought my HP DVD- I hadn't seen the movie yet and was there bright and early to buy it. Of course, I can't wait for the video to come out... I'm starting to kind of loose interest, so that's why I'm re-reading the books. Again. I'll have to take a closer look- I didn't notice things like the glint in Dumbledore's eye, and I don't think I thought about the "Mrs. Figg" "Arabella Figg" thing. :) I think it's pretty neat- I've not read a lot of fantasy books, especially not fantasy series, and I think it's cool how she drops little hints and foreshadows things that don't come up for a few more books. I don't know yet that I can really bring anything to discussion that hasn't been brought up already- and actually, the only thing that I think bothered me (or that seemed out of place, before I read a bunch of other things that now don't seem right!!) is in GoF... sorry if this has been rehashed a few times... I'm so puzzled over Barty Jr.'s role as a DE. Okay... Voldemore refers to him as his most loyal DE, who cared most, etc... but, he was one of the DE's that, IMO, renounced him. During his trial, the one couple said something in support of the DL... but wasn't BJ saying that he didn't do it, he wasn't involved, etc.? He was pretty close to saying he'd been Imperialized, I'd say. My favorite character... besides Harry, of course... is Ron, I think. He's loads of fun and he's a great sidekick... I hope he gets a larger role soon. And, not in a bad way (ie, in the 2nd and 3rd books, he got conked out or something, and then last time of course wasn't involved at all in the climax). A very close second is Lupin. I just loved him... As for my least favorite character, it is by far Cornelius Fudge. He's so snotty, such a jerk... I find it interesting that he asks Dumbledore for advice almost daily and yet when Dumbledore gives him the advice he should heed, and others (Snape, Harry, etc) try to make him see what's happening, he decides to turn a deaf ear. Just the fact that Barty Jr. existed should have caused the alarm bells to go off big time. Ooh, and now that I'm thinking about it... although, I suppose there's no proof- it would seem that they could let the cat out of the bag RE: Pettigrew. James is dead, so he can't be reprimanded about being an animagus; Lupin couldn't really be held accountable for his being bitten; and no one need make mention of Sirius. Well, I guess it would follow that if the others changed, he would, too... hmm, lots to think about. I should be off to read some more FAQ's (I think I'll be old and gray before I'm finished exploring the Lexicon), and should go before anything else pops into my head! I look forward to chatting with you guys! Aesha *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* Past Honored Queen, Bethel #77, Eugene, Oregon Grand Bethel Honored Queen 1999~2000 *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lupinesque at yahoo.com Mon Jun 3 09:21:12 2002 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (lupinesque) Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 09:21:12 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?B?kU1pbGxpZSySkUdvYXSSIHRha2UgdG9wIFRvbnlz?= Message-ID: So says the headline in today's paper. Alan Rickman got beat out by Alan Bates (ooh, war of the sexy Englishmen), but at least our Goat got his due. ;-) Amy From lupinesque at yahoo.com Mon Jun 3 09:30:36 2002 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (lupinesque) Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 09:30:36 -0000 Subject: Help needed In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Nuri wrote: > I'm writing a HP fanfic and I need to know from when to when > Christmas Holidays take place in the UK. is there any brit friend > around who can help this damsel? I can't help out re: Muggle schools, but the Lexicon has calendars of years 1-3 at Hogwarts. http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/ click on "timelines" In GF, the last day of term is December 18 and the first day back is January 4 (dates *pretty* certain). JKR, by the way, is very consistent on this point; each year the end of term is several days before Christmas and the beginning of term is a few days after New Year's. HTH, Amy From macloudt at hotmail.com Mon Jun 3 09:31:31 2002 From: macloudt at hotmail.com (Mary Jennings) Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 09:31:31 +0000 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Gifted Children, stage parents, and leftover siblings Message-ID: The wonderful, level-headed Cindy wrote: >Do "all parents" demand that their children accomplish Great Things >that the parents can brag about? > >Well, I don't know everything, but I know that the answer to that >question is "No." "All" parents do not do this. Bent parents do >this. > >Some of us genuinely want our kids to find their way in the world >and grow up happy and well-adjusted. We are pleased when they do >well in something, true. But it isn't always about bragging >rights. It is the hope that the child's success in Whatever-It-Is >that they are doing well will lead them to be happy and well- >adjusted as opposed to confused and riddled with self-doubt. >There's also the fact that a child's success in something often (but >not always) causes the child to be happy, if even for a short time. >And seeing your child happy is a bit of a rush, I must admit. > >Besides, bragging about the accomplishments of the fruit of one's >loins is kinda tacky. ;-) Well said! I was going to write a similar reply, but didn't get the chance. Yes, there *are* bragging parents out there--waaaaayy to many, in fact---but please don't label *all* parents as braggarts who live through the accomplishments of their children. I have many different interests but don't excel in any of them, truth be told. So it wouldn't surprise me if my kids turn out the same. They, too, enjoy doing many different things rather than focusing on one thing. I hated having pressure put on me as a child, especially as my youngest brother, who is four years older than me, was a brilliant student and I was expected to follow in his footsteps. I-don't-think-so! I had far too many other things I wanted to do to concentrate solely on my schoolwork. And I had the marks to prove it ;) It is my catty opinion that "stage parents" (those who live through the accomplishments of their children) have no identity of their own, and therefore no self-worth. Pressuring children to perform for the benefit of the parent in *any* situation is utterly repulsive IMHO. These parents should literally get a life of their own. I'm curious about the *siblings* of gifted children. How are they treated? How do they cope? Does your work cover this topic, Shaun? I'd be very interested to hear any opinions or personal experiences. As I mentioned earlier, I have a brother who excelled at high school through studying very hard, and I was expected to live up to his level. The thing is, in non-math and non-science subjects I probably could have done as well as Paul, but I chose to devote my spare time to other things as well, so the massive effort wasn't there. I was strong enough to resist the criticism from my parents and did my own thing. Paul was the spoiled one of us four kids anyway, so I had no time for him. But my situation just involved a somewhat gifted student. What is the situation like with, say, a pre-teen gifted athlete, whose mother is with the gifted child at the skating rink or swimming pool every morning and every evening? What happens to the leftover siblings? Just my Monday morning rambling! Mary Ann (mediocre piano player, sewer, Guide helper, knitter, domestic goddess, student, and many other things!) _________________________________________________________________ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com From lupinesque at yahoo.com Mon Jun 3 09:38:59 2002 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (lupinesque) Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 09:38:59 -0000 Subject: slight correction Re: Help needed In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I wrote: > JKR, by the way, is very > consistent on this point; each year the end of term is several days > before Christmas and the beginning of term is a few days after New > Year's. Actually, I just looked more closely and these dates are given in blue on the Lexicon, meaning Steve had to approximate a bit. On GF, though, the last day of term is 99% certain and the first day of the next term about 80% (depends on whether you think CoMC meets more than once a week that year, and if anyone has any theories on *that* one, I'd love to hear them on the main list or offlist to me). Amy the calendar maven From naama_gat at hotmail.com Mon Jun 3 12:20:59 2002 From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naamagatus) Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 12:20:59 -0000 Subject: Gifted Children: An unsubstantiated psychological assessment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Amy replied to Tabouli: >I'm not a fan of telling children their IQs, or indeed even testing for them, but I don't believe that doing so automatically equals teaching them that intellectual superiority is their defining feature, any more than telling them that they have tremendous talent at the piano teaches them that their defining feature is musical talent, or telling them they're the best Seeker in years teaches them that their defining feature is Quidditch talent. Plenty of parents manage to convey to their children that they are brilliant in some way or another, without also conveying that this >brilliance is "everything." Naama: I hope so. But I think you need to be a very careful, self-aware kind of parent to do that. I agree with Tabouli (?) who remarked that individualism carries with it an enormous emphasis on external achievements. I definitely think that Ego problems can arise out of giftedness in any area, including physical appearance. I'm sure that a very good looking girl, whose self-esteem is centered on her physical beauty, would feel just as panicky and insecure when she faces competition with other beautiful women when envisioning a career in modeling. Amy: >I agree with your recommendation, therefore--with apologies to Thoreau, "Diversify, diversify." And while we're telling kids their *many* talents, we might also affirm that their worth comes from other attributes such as being loving, patient, honest, kind, etc., or even (gasp) that it is inherent in being human, and not >contingent at all. Me: Hear, Hear! I'm reminded of that extremely old-fashioned word ? "vanity." Fighting vanity, once such an important paedagogical principle (remember Marilla in Anne of Green Gables?), seems to have gone completely out of fashion, hasn't it? Now it's all about making your child feel good about herself, giving her a lot of positive reinforcement, etc. The question is, is it possible to give a child the sense that s/he is worthwhile and important in herself, regardless of her achievements? Could a child reach adulthood or even puberty without evaluating herself externally (how clever am I, how athletic am I, how nice am I, how pretty am I )? It seems to me that the most wonderful, loving, unjudgmental parent in the world couldn't completely counteract the effects of the surrounding society. Is it even desirable? If a person is to live and earn a living in our society (i.e., Western society), maybe s/he should have competitiveness instilled into her in childhood? I'm sure that many parents push their children out of real anxiety as to their future prospects. Doing well in school isn't only something for parents to brag about. It can actually mean a huge difference in the child's future standard of living. Which, in a roundabout way, brings me to the opposite type of underachievers ? the untalented. Those who are pushed to achieve beyond their abilities. Those who don't do well at school because well, because they are simply not intelligent enough. You think they don't feel humiliated, inadequate, even defective? My point being (I think ) that it's basically a cultural matter. The gifted "syndrome" that Tabouli describes is a symptom in one group of people of a general cultural condition. And, as long as we live under the current set of values, I really don't think there can be any real "cure." Naama In a fighting, "Vive la Revolution" kind of mood From s_ings at yahoo.com Mon Jun 3 12:30:15 2002 From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend) Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 08:30:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Happy Birthday, Mecki! Message-ID: <20020603123015.43546.qmail@web14604.mail.yahoo.com> *puts finishing touches on decorations and lights candles on the cake* Okay, everyone who wants cake, form a tidy line on the left side of the room. It's Mecki's birthday and we want to make sure everyone gets a slice of this cake I stayed up all night slaving over. Birthday owls can be sent to this list or directly to meckelburg at foni.net I hope the day is filled with magic, butterbeer and chocolate frogs. Happy Birthday, Mecki! Sheryll ===== "We need to be united and strong. We'll have losses and scares, sure. And you'll be there for each other, helping each other through the bad times." blpurdom - Harry Potter and the Psychic Serpent, Chapter 26 ______________________________________________________________________ Find, Connect, Date! http://personals.yahoo.ca From macloudt at hotmail.com Mon Jun 3 13:39:25 2002 From: macloudt at hotmail.com (Mary Jennings) Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 13:39:25 +0000 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Happy Birthday, Mecki! Message-ID: Our Birthday Elf said: >Okay, everyone who wants cake, form a tidy line on the >left side of the room. It's Mecki's birthday and we >want to make sure everyone gets a slice of this cake I >stayed up all night slaving over. :::::bounces in behind Sheryll::::: Happy Birthday, Mecki! Now be sure to dump the kids on DH and have a day for *yourself*! I hope the Present Fairies are good to you. Cheers, Mary Ann :) _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From moongirlk at yahoo.com Mon Jun 3 17:02:36 2002 From: moongirlk at yahoo.com (moongirlk) Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 17:02:36 -0000 Subject: Gifted Children, stage parents, and leftover siblings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "Mary Jennings" wrote: > I hated having pressure put on me as a child, > especially as my youngest brother, who is four years older than me, was a > brilliant student and I was expected to follow in his footsteps. > I-don't-think-so! I had far too many other things I wanted to do to > concentrate solely on my schoolwork. And I had the marks to prove it ;) > > It is my catty opinion that "stage parents" (those who live through the > accomplishments of their children) have no identity of their own, and > therefore no self-worth. Pressuring children to perform for the benefit of > the parent in *any* situation is utterly repulsive IMHO. These parents > should literally get a life of their own. > > I'm curious about the *siblings* of gifted children. How are they treated? > How do they cope? Does your work cover this topic, Shaun? I'd be very > interested to hear any opinions or personal experiences. My sister and I might be an interesting example. She was gifted in a lot of ways, if not academically. She was beautiful, talented, a wonderful singer, athletic, a dancer, and never afraid to try for what she wanted. She was very well-liked. I knew by the time I was 7 or 8 that even our grandparents liked her best. She's 5 years older than me, so it's hard to make direct comparisons at various stages, but let's just say that I was less than beautiful, insecure and rediculously eager to please as well as completely uncoordinated. I had friends, but social situations were never easy for me, I always felt awkward. Needless to say, I thought she was the height of cool, and was desperate to be like her. Growing up, I sometimes felt like the spare kid, dragged along to her various activities and performances and competitions, playing with her medals and trophies, looking through the millions of pictures my parents always took, etc. I tagged along, entralled especially with her music and theater activites, learning every line and lyric while I watched, assuming that one day I'd do the same stuff, because clearly that was Important. Turns out, I can carry a tune, but am no great singer, can't dance to save my life, etc. I did get cast in a school play once - had a few lines even. My parents came, but by then it was old hat to them. Nobody took pictures. I admit at the time I thought it was because I wasn't as important or as good as my sister, but it probably ended up being a good thing for me. I stopped trying out for plays after that and found I had much more in common with the crew people than with the actors, and was far more comfortable behind the scenes. The funny thing is, for all I thought that my sister was the golden child and I was the spare, she was jealous of me for being "the smart one". To me, that was all I had, since she got all the *good* genes ;), but she always felt inadequate academically and envied how it came so easily for me. Also, because I was so all-fired eager to please all the time and too honest for my own good, our parents pretty much trusted me, whereas she had more of a struggle to get to do what she wanted. I thought our parents idolized her, and she thought they were closer to me. Maybe we were both right, maybe not. Our parents, I'm sure, thought that they were just dealing with our particular strengths as individuals and trying to encourage us in what they saw as our areas, but we both thought that the other had the better deal. So from my personal experience, I'd say that whenever there are siblings, there's bound to be a feeling of inequality on all sides. It's impossible, not to mention inadvisable, to treat each child in exactly the same way. I was the academically "gifted" one, and *I* felt like the leftover sibling. My sister was the one who got the sort of attention I think you mean, and yet *she* felt like our parents didn't know her. So while I think it's true that gifted children, and especially the PGs that Shaun is such a wonderful advocate of, have needs that should be addressed, I think mostly it's just tough to be a kid sometimes, no matter who you are. kimberly feeling quite lucky about her childhood all in all From witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 3 18:54:07 2002 From: witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com (Wanda the Witch) Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 11:54:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Happy Birthday, Mecki! In-Reply-To: <20020603123015.43546.qmail@web14604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20020603185407.82076.qmail@web13709.mail.yahoo.com> Sheryll Townsend wrote: I hope the day is filled with magic, butterbeer and chocolate frogs. Happy Birthday, Mecki! Sheryll We want to add our Birthday Wishes to Sabine too! All of us in the Mallett Household send tons of Birthday Wishes and really would like them to be for tons of Harry Potter Goodies! Maybe the kids can treat you on this special day!????? Enjoy all your fun and tons of Schnoogles to you and your munchkins and the big kid! Wanda the Witch of Revere,Massachusetts and Her Very Merry Band of Muggles 100% "When you come to the edge of all the light you know, and are about to step off into the darkness of the unknown, faith is knowing one of two things will happen; There will be something solid to stand on, or you will be taught how to fly."......Unknown. --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dicentra at xmission.com Mon Jun 3 19:25:39 2002 From: dicentra at xmission.com (dicentra63) Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 19:25:39 -0000 Subject: ?Millie,??Goat? take top Tonys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "lupinesque" wrote: > So says the headline in today's paper. Alan Rickman got beat out by > Alan Bates (ooh, war of the sexy Englishmen) And what does Alan Bates have to do with HP? Hmmmm? It's only obvious who should have won. I mean, really. "Private Lives" took best scenery, best play revival, and best actress. Not awarding best actor to AR makes it look like he's the weakest link in the chain. I DON'T THINK SO!!! Poor, poor, "Severus." Always the bridesmaid... --Dicentra, who's never the bride either From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Mon Jun 3 19:34:01 2002 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley) Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 19:34:01 -0000 Subject: Coconut (was Help wanted!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "triner2001" wrote: > I bought a coconut. I read the directions "to prepare coconut" and > followed through. Or rather, I *attempted* to follow through. I > knocked a hole in the eye and drained the milk with no problem. It > was with the step "Tap shell sharply on groove with hammer, revealing > white flesh within" that I had problems. I tapped sharply. Nothing. > I banged the hell out of it. Nothing happened, outside of a lot of > noise and frightening the cats. > > So, does anyone have any ideas? Possibly a little late but... put the coconut in a plastic sandwich or freezer bag, and tie a knot in the bag so the coconut is completely enclosed. Fetch out a decent mallet or hammer. Forget wimpy 'sharp tapping': give it all the welly you've got - you might as well enjoy the chore. It doesn't matter where you hit it either. David From lupinesque at yahoo.com Mon Jun 3 22:25:01 2002 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (lupinesque) Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 22:25:01 -0000 Subject: ?Millie,??Goat? take top Tonys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dicentra demanded: > And what does Alan Bates have to do with HP? Hmmmm? It's only > obvious who should have won. I mean, really. Hey, you get no argument from me. Not that I've actually seen either one, nor plan to. But as you say, the only rule that matters is: how closely connected is the person to HP? Alan Rickman: starring role in all films, at least 'til Snape dies ;-): one degree Alan Bates: was in Gosford Park: so was Maggie Smith: two degrees. BTW, "Millie"=Thoroughly Modern Millie revival, "Goat"=The Goat, play by Edward Albee. And for them that don't know, Tonys=annual awards for Broadway plays. Amy From Ali at zymurgy.org Mon Jun 3 23:07:18 2002 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (alhewison) Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 23:07:18 -0000 Subject: Community Feeling Message-ID: Our Golden Street Party has just finished; 2 roads normally full of cars were blocked up and the cars parked elsewhere. For 9 hours we partied! What felt brilliant though was the fact that of the 250 people there, all ages and many different cultures and religions were all involved. For a small area we do have quite a range of peoples - students, lawyers, teachers, musicians, Christians, Muslims, Sikhs, Hindus and Jews; the very young, the very old and many imbetween ( a small nursery and old people's home are next door to each other. I believe that in Britain today we can be very ambivalent about our culture and patriotism can be seen as jingoistic, and something other countries do. Most people I know would probably associate the Union Jack with the extreme right, and very few would actually own one. We owe our allegiance to "Queen and Country" but over the past few years the Monarchy has come under heavy fire. Mass media has exposed weaknesses and oh! Horror of Horrors! despite their privileges etc, the royal family are normal people! The Queen's Popularity though has remained steady and there has been a general upsurge in popularity this year following the Queen Mother's death, and the Jubilee itself. On the whole though, it has left us as a nation confused about what we are - or what we should be. It's worse if you are English. It's ok to be Scottish or Welsh, but if you're English - should we be more inclusive and call ourselves British... or what? Anyway, I waffle. The Golden Jubilee has coincided with the World Cup, and the two combined have brought about a mass of flag-waving and general community feeling. I remember the Silver Jubilee, and certainly the Golden Jubilee does seem more muted in comparison. But, peopel have enjoyed the atmosphere and it has felt really good to be part of it. I confess to being rather jealous of the US and other countries that have a special day to celebrate being themselves. It's strange that more and more pubs in Britain celebrate July 4th, and yet we have nothing comparable to latch onto. Our history is almost against us here - celebrating our past might seem confrontational, un-PC, and not the inclusivity we need to keep our changing population together. I suppose for our 2 streets, the Jubilee has provided us with an excusse to get together, and whether people wanted to party because they were celebrating the Queen, or were rather bemused about the whole thing, we all ended up celebrating [with the Queen]. We had loads of different entertainment including Tug-of-War which the women won but I guess that had more to do with the amount of beer the blokes had drunk than innate strength! We had rain of course, but then we're used to that! Ali Apologising for waffling on about her day and going back to lurk, but who enjoys celebrating and thinks that we all ought to have a World Culture day, or something so that we can celebrate together. From huntleyl at mssm.org Mon Jun 3 23:25:53 2002 From: huntleyl at mssm.org (Laura Ingalls Huntley) Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 19:25:53 -0400 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Gifted Children, stage parents, and leftover siblings References: Message-ID: <00a501c20b56$019db180$d8c2ded1@huntleyl> Mary Jennings asked: > I'm curious about the *siblings* of gifted children. How are they treated? > How do they cope? Does your work cover this topic, Shaun? I'd be very > interested to hear any opinions or personal experiences. I'd like to agree whole-heartedly with Kim..and mention that gifted kids do not, in my opinion, get all the attention in a given family. Sort of a "squeaky wheel gets the grease" scenario.. My brother has ADHD and a LD and my mom has always spent infinitely more time with him than me in just about every area of childhood life. When I got depressed it would take her *months* to notice, because I was the one who was supposed to "have it together" and be responsible and take care of myself. Admittedly, I'm pretty good at hiding my depression (I'm more of the imploding, rather than exploding sort)...but still...mum spent nearly every hour of every afternoon and evening with my brother...struggling through his homework/discussing his behavior in class that day/etc. I don't think she even notice the first year I spent coming home from school and going directly to bed until it was time to get up the next morning. Not that I blame her, and it probably *did* strengthen my own ability to care for my own wounds, so to speak..but a little support would have been pretty nice at that time. As for recognition...I don't know what she told her friends about me...but I very, very rarely got praised for high marks or any achievement of that sort -- it was just sort of expected, you know? She never said when I looked pretty or was behaving maturely or anything. Again, another thing that was probably good for me -- god forbid I get a big head ^_~ -- but still..it would have been nice. The only thing I really excel/ed at besides school is/was horseback riding, which she refuses to watch because it scares the living daylights out of her. So there is that. Of course, then Emma came along and that was the end of it for me and Jason...^_~ Honestly, though..I'm glad I'm nothing like Emma...she's only 6 years old and she's already as bad as all my old friends were in 6th and 7th grade. Britney Spears and boys. *rolls eyes* laura [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From fluxed at earthlink.net Mon Jun 3 20:27:36 2002 From: fluxed at earthlink.net (vulgarweed) Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 20:27:36 -0000 Subject: Hurt-Comfort In Real Life In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "cindysphynx" wrote: > Following up on our discussion on the main list . . . > > I was interested to see so many of the women folk admit that the > attraction of Lupin/Sirius/Snape is this Hurt-Comfort idea. > > That got me wondering whether the people who find themselves > reacting strongly to Hurt-Comfort in fiction wind up with Hurt- > Comfort men in real life. > > Well, do you? Hmmmm? > > Cindy (who wound up with a Sensitive Man, but not the Hurt- Comfort > variety) Hmmmm, (know I've been lurking--been meaning to switch to the email version of this list for a while now). See no one's really answered this one. I would say when I was younger, yes, I did. I was very infatuated with young men who fit the wounded-bird/no-one-but-me-can-REALLY- understand him image. I had to learn the hard way by being involved in a pretty nasty _mutually_ psychologically abusive obsession with a very mentally ill person (I was hardly the picture of health myself) to cure me of it. After that I kind of took the H/C in the other direction by getting involved with someone who liked broken birds and fixer-uppers himself and seemed such the White Knight in his sardonic way: a bit older, made more money and paid the bills, seemed so much more "together". But that didn't work out either, because the dirty little secret is that both rescuers and rescued alike after a time come to resent each other a LOT if they get stuck in those roles. We parted, after narrowly dodging the bullet of marriage, and are working on being friends again now that we live in different cities. My guy now is someone I see as a peer in almost every way. He's a little younger and flakier, but that's a relief after Mr. Daddy. We're *both* impecunious artsy types with strong wills: unlike in the last relationship nobody plays the "somebody has to be the breadwinner/protector" martyr, so we're broke and content, as opposed to not-broke and resentful (with one partner hating every millisecond of his accounting-firm day job, yeeesh). The important thing is, we put our heads _together_ to make decisions--which means if we get it right or screw up, the credit or blame is *shared* and not a cause for head games. Real-life relationships are so much nicer with a minimum of psychodrama. If something awful happened to him, goddessforbid, I'd certainly do everything in my power to help, but I don't think I could eroticize it. As I've said, though, fantasy is a *totally* different animal. Probably Too Much Information here, but there is a definite BDSM component to my sexuality, combined with a strong element of the fantastic...I mean, ordinary men, pish tosh--bring on the otherworldly creatures. A little blood always gets spilled in a good kinky fairy tale. I'm very mildly bi-ish; personally I'm more drawn to women who kick a whole lot of ass as opposed to the ones who need rescuing...blech. AV From fluxed at earthlink.net Mon Jun 3 20:39:48 2002 From: fluxed at earthlink.net (vulgarweed) Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 20:39:48 -0000 Subject: is Hermione gifted? In-Reply-To: <3CF9F97E.10236.9B8AC4@localhost> Message-ID: > > Hermione is definitely gifted, IMHO, and that of many other people involved in > advocacy. > Harry also fits another gifted profile - he's less interested in academic work, but > certainly seems capable, and he does seem to have an inquiring mind, etc. If I > wanted to get psychological (-8, I'd suggest that part of the reason he has less > interest in academic work is the likelihood he was not challenged before he went to > Hogwarts - somehow I doubt the Dursley's took much interest. He also has > Quidditch, and other things in his life, as real priorities. > > Ron could very easily be gifted as well - it's not incredibly obvious, but giftedness > quite often isn't. Skill at Chess shows some logic skills are likely. Being a younger > brother in a large family can tend to 'disguise' giftedness to an extent. > > Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought > Shaun Hately |webpage: I agree that all three of them are gifted in different ways. Yes, I think definitely Hermione is gifted. Maybe she needs to work to achieve her high marks, but one of the biggest signs of giftedness is an insane hunger for knowledge, which she definitely has. She doesn't study because she _has_ to (at least not entirely), she studies because she _loves_ to. Funny, this thread. When I first read HP & the S/PS, it took me back immediately to the first summers I got to leave my crappy little town and go to various University's summer programs for gifted kids, and kids interested in wildlife, and young writers: I felt like I had gotten a mysterious invitation to study at a wondrous place where I _belonged_ as I had never belonged before. So in my highly subjective emotional reading (that was very similar to my readings of Madeleine L'Engle's Time trilogy and Susan Cooper's _The Dark Is Rising_ series and the Chronicles of Narnia, etc.) I took magic and the ability to see workings of the universe others don't (and being reviled and misunderstood for that ability) as an extended metaphor *for* giftedness. AV From fluxed at earthlink.net Mon Jun 3 21:02:54 2002 From: fluxed at earthlink.net (vulgarweed) Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 21:02:54 -0000 Subject: Book Harry vs. Movie Harry In-Reply-To: <003901c20997$79bc7220$e8c22744@jdover01.nj.comcast.net> Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., poco214 wrote: > Since I watched the movie before reading the books, I see a mixture of book and movie characters. > > I picture Harry, Hermione, and Dumbledore differently, while Draco, McGonagall, Ron, and Hagrid are the movie actors with slight adjustments. > > Snape is not quite as handsome as Alan Rickman (too bad ^_^) > > I wish I had read the books before seeing the movie so I could have an unadulterated idea of how everyone looks, but then I might not have liked Dan Radcliffe as much, simply because of his hair and eye colors. > > Dana > To me Harry looks a bit like Dan Radcliffe, but more scruffy and weedy-looking (at least at first); Dan's cute and very close, but too well-groomed and well-fed; little, immediately post-Dursley Harry is more of an urchin. Hermione in my head has a rounder face, kind of messed-up teeth, and frizzier hair (she will be a beauty later but she sure isn't one now). Did anybody see that Salon.com review of Enigma in which the reviewer said that Kate Winslet in that flick looked like his idea of a grown-up Hermione? I concur, definitely. Robbie Coltrane's Hagrid _is_ my Hagrid. The only one, really--except Rupert Grint, who is a lot like my Ron, only shorter. My McGonagall doesn't look like Maggie Smith at all (although Smith was great in the movie)--she has black hair like it says in the book, and big square-rimmed glasses, and that sort of ageless quality that very stern elegant women have: she could be anywhere between 40 and 70 (in witch years!). My Snape does look a bit like Alan Rickman (and certainly _sounds_ just like him), but younger and thinner and more pointy-faced. Richard Harris is just not my Dumbledore--the look is OK, but the demeanor's all wrong: too fragile and somber. And yes, I can have the different images in my head just fine. Looking at a lot of fanart further complicates the mix. :) AV From drednort at alphalink.com.au Tue Jun 4 03:44:08 2002 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 13:44:08 +1000 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Gifted Children: An unsubstantiated psychological assessment In-Reply-To: <007b01c209fb$59fa1c80$1d27ddcb@price> Message-ID: <3CFCC428.29170.1470FA@localhost> On 2 Jun 2002 at 16:03, Tabouli wrote: > (I'm not saying this happens in every case, but I've certainly seen it. I also went to > a seminar on this very subject at Melbourne University a year or two ago, which > presented research on IQ and self-esteem and noted that while children of above > average IQ generally had above average self-esteem, there was a dramatic drop > in self-esteem among children of very high IQ, and the research suggested that > this was because these children were using a different basis for measuring their > achievements). Do you know who gave the seminar (I attend a fair bunch of the ones that have been run at Melbourne Uni, myself). I should point out that the idea that kids with high IQs have lower self-esteem is *very* controversial at the moment. Several researchers believe that the whole idea of low self esteem among any section of the gifted is a myth, that's been reinforced by the fact that kids with problems are much more visible than those without. Personally, I do believe that there is a link but it's certainly a matter of great debate at the moment. Tabouli: > What's going on in the child's head is less easy to determine. Don't know what > research has been done here, but I'd guess what's happening in there is harder to > access. Qualitative research, maybe? I wonder how willing or even able your > typical gifted child would really be to explain to an interviewer what has caused > the change. I'll bet they get the school counsellors out in force when Junior > Genius suddenly slumps, but how many gifted teenagers would really be prepared > to tell them why? They may not know themselves, not really (probably more EQ > than IQ, this sort of insight?). I dunno. Just can't be bothered any more, it seems > pointless. After years of being held up as superior to other people they often, > alas, have difficulty respecting other people who are almost certainly "inferior" to > them (one gifted guy I know was going to a much-needed psychiatrist but was > convinced he had far more intelligence and insight than said psychiatrist and > therefore treated his sessions like an intellectual power game. No idea what the > psychiatrist made of this). This is why our program, and several other have people like me involved - because generally we can get the kids to open up to us, because they know we've been there - the experiences may not be identical, but there's enough commonality that they are more likely to tell us in some cases where they won't tell anyone else. Most do have a keen insight into why they feel the way they do. The 'superiority' problem is a rare one - but when it does happen, we can deal with that as well. I have on one occasion, when dealing with a kid who was really hung up about how high his IQ score was, and how because he was smarter than everyone else, nobody could understand him, drawn my file from a cabinet and shown him my scores. (-8 Probably not the best way to handle it most times but it worked with him. Tabouli: > My anecdotal impression is that when you've spent the first 12-16 years of your > life being proclaimed a genius superior to other mortals, it's pretty hard to let go > of. By then it's already become a central pillar of most gifted children's self- > esteem, especially seeing they usually have social difficulties which erode their > self-esteem in other areas. I suspect many of the gifted children who keep > playing the game do so for this very reason: with minimal effort, the education > system will keep providing self-esteem stroking evidence of their superiority, on > which they become very dependent. The path is rockier for those who rebel with > conviction. OK - first of all, the social difficulties thing does appear to be a myth. Gifted children do not usually have social difficulties - the chances they do are about the same as any other child. And the more gifted they are, generally, the less social difficulties they display, even when they do exist. Again, the kids with the problems are more visible so people seem to think they are a higher proportion than they are. But certainly there are some who do 'play the game' for the reasons you describe - but most of those are in the 'moderately gifted' category - (IQ130-144, very roughly) - for whom some challenge still exists in the education system. Tabouli: > For a start, as we've discussed, the typical reaction of the parents and educators > is horror. What's happened to you? You're *underachieving*! Very stressful, > because the child is actually dependent on said adults. But also stressful because > if the child rejects intellectual superiority as a valid measure of worth, what > replaces it in their identity? What do they have left? If the child is lucky, s/he will > find something else which isn't too self-destructive (computers, role-playing, art, > I've known a few who made it to university and then flung themselves into the > SCA, etc.). If not, things can get very ugly indeed. Crime. Suicide. Substance > abuse. Mental illness. Often coupled, at least in my observation, with desperate > clinging to the belief that they are, nonetheless, still superior beings, they're just > not prepared to make the compromises lesser individuals make to claim the glory > which could easily be theirs if they could just decide on the direction in which they > want to apply their genius As you say, 'in your observation' - I don't doubt that this is what you've observed but I don't think you see the people who make it and are emotionally healthy when they do. Well, you probably see them - but you don't realise who they are. No reason you should - because their psychological health means they don't stand out. Tabouli: > OK, so perhaps in those last few points my sample size has dwindled to two > specific male case studies. And there do seem to be notable gender differences > (thoughts, Shaun?). There are general gender differences. Lots of theories as to why - one big one is that girls are taught to be more 'compliant' at school - it's less acceptable for them to stand out and rebel. So they are under more pressure to fit in - and work harder at doing so. That eliminates some problems, but can create a wide range of new ones. There's also the facts that girls are, on average, slightly more intelligent than boys, and, slightly more emotionally mature (at times, more than slightly) and this may mean gifted girls have an easier time finding people to fit in with than boys. And in some cases - for examples when there have been initiatives to try and get more girls to study high level mathematics or sciences, etc, in order to address a gender imbalance - it's been made more acceptable for girls to perform academically, which can make things much easier on a girl with interests and gifts in those areas. Tabouli: > How would people like these come out in the "gifted children" follow-up study > stakes? Probably fine. It depends on the study - but in most of the follow ups done in the last 15 years, they wouldn't come out as fine. Most of those studies have used detailed psychological questionairres which would expose all sorts of ego problems, etc - and these people are among the most likely to answer the questions honestly - because they tend to be proud of who they are (or at least want people to think they are) and because they know from past experience they do well on tests, so they regard them as a way to show off. Tabouli: > So long as they're getting results they consider acceptable (i.e. extremely high) > they come across as fine. They're "achieving" in a socially applauded domain of > endeavour. But how healthy are they really? (well, how healthy is anyone really, > but anyway). As healthy as can be hoped for? I think there's a very important > issue which, to the best of my knowledge, hasn't been explored enough and this is > the child's *identity*. Self-image. It's the putting all your eggs in one basket > problem. If you single a child out on the basis of IQ and everything that happens > thenceforth revolves around being intellectually superior to others, the child is > being taught that intellectual superiority is his or her defining feature. That it's > everything. Their role is intellectual achievement, and if they don't get it, they are > a failure as a person. If they try to reject this role, they tend to be judged as failur The thing is, I've never encountered any type of gifted program where 'everything... revolves around being intellectually superior to others' or where a child is 'taught that intellectual superiority is his or her defining feature'. I know it happens - I've heard of it happening, but it seems very rare to me. And it only happens if something is seriously wrong with how things are being run. > My thoughts (for what they're worth without extensive research into the area!) are > that gifted children should be encouraged to *diversify*. Given the opportunity to > find roles other than "intellectually gifted" to play, preferably outside school, so > that their self-esteem can be spread a little more widely. Acting. Dancing. > Drawing. Sport. Whatever. Something that they and other people can define > them by which isn't related to their high IQ. As an example, I took up karate in my > early twenties, and by jingo it was good for me. A domain of endeavour where > intellectual ability was not going to get me very far. Where I might manage to be > good, but would never be exceptional. Where there would always be a lot of > people Better Than Me, and I had to learn it was actually OK to be ordinary > (Embarrassingly, I struggled with this after a lifetime of indoctrination, but my > sinister social scientist went to work on my reactions and found them a very > interesting addition to my musings on gifted children). This is rather problematic area. I happen to agree with the diversification to some extent - in fact my first published article on gifted issues includes the following: "Secondly, I think it's important for parent particularly with a gifted child to encourage their children to take risks - to do hard things, even knowing they will fail sometimes. Perhaps it is advisable to find something the child is not good at (perhaps sport) and encourage them to do it - not something they are necessarily bad at, but something that they have to work for and they don't always do perfectly. If a child has never experienced failure, they will eventually come to view anything less than total success as a failure." *But* it's also important for parents etc, to ensure they don't fall into the trap of expecting more from a gifted child than they would from any child. Diversification is something that *all* children need - not just the gifted. A gifted child should not be expected to diversity more than any other child. See - certainly, it's not good if somebody is basing their entire self image on how smart they are. But by emphasising other areas *too much*, you can wind up giving the child the impression that being intelligent has no value - that it doesn't count. And that's not good for self esteem either. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately |webpage: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) |email: drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil | Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From drednort at alphalink.com.au Tue Jun 4 04:01:29 2002 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 14:01:29 +1000 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Gifted Children, stage parents, and leftover siblings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3CFCC839.15696.245636@localhost> On 3 Jun 2002 at 9:31, Mary Jennings wrote: > I'm curious about the *siblings* of gifted children. How are they treated? > How do they cope? Does your work cover this topic, Shaun? I'd be very > interested to hear any opinions or personal experiences. As I mentioned > earlier, I have a brother who excelled at high school through studying very > hard, and I was expected to live up to his level. The thing is, in non-math > and non-science subjects I probably could have done as well as Paul, but I > chose to devote my spare time to other things as well, so the massive effort > wasn't there. I was strong enough to resist the criticism from my parents > and did my own thing. Paul was the spoiled one of us four kids anyway, so I > had no time for him. But my situation just involved a somewhat gifted > student. What is the situation like with, say, a pre-teen gifted athlete, > whose mother is with the gifted child at the skating rink or swimming pool > every morning and every evening? What happens to the leftover siblings? The work I do doesn't directly address this, but I know people whose work does and I've talked to them about it a lot. First of all, most gifted kids have gifted siblings - if parents have one gifted child, there is a very good chance others will be gifted as well. It may not be in precisely the same areas, but generally there are gifts at work. When there is an imbalance - either real or perceived - a lot depends on how the parents address it. Some do a good job of ensuring all their kids needs are met. Others don't. I have a younger brother - he is definitely gifted, but he also had some fairly significant learning disabilities. My parents threw all their time and resources into him for around 5 years - they certainly didn't neglect me, but he needed extra help. Fortunately, his problems could be addressed to a great extent, and they were. Later on when the problems I was having because of my giftedness (he avoided many of those) came to a head, their attention went towards me - again, he wasn't neglected, and when he had needs they were met - but I needed more. In our cases, the problems came to a head at different times - which made things easier on my parents... a little easier. But if need be, they would have put their hearts and souls into meeting everything we needed at the same time. I know this. Because my father never hesitated - working to meet my needs put him into his grave. He gave his life, my mother gave the man she loved. I suppose, what I'm saying how it is handled relates to how the parents deal with it. Some deal with it well, and manage to meet all their kids needs. Some don't. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately |webpage: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) |email: drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil | Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From tabouli at unite.com.au Tue Jun 4 04:29:28 2002 From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 14:29:28 +1000 Subject: Quick response to Shaun on the healthy gifted Message-ID: <005d01c20b80$6c3f4380$3524ddcb@price> I have a half-finished long-winded reply to earlier posts on this thread in my Drafts folder, but a quick comment on this... (reply to Shaun, but I thought I'd put it on-list, as lots of people seem to be following this thread...) Shaun: > As you say, 'in your observation' - I don't doubt that this is what you've observed but I don't think you see the people who make it and are emotionally healthy when they do. Well, you probably see them - but you don't realise who they are. No reason you should - because their psychological health means they don't stand out.< I wouldn't assume this! I do know well-adjusted gifted people. I've spent a long time in the education system, worked with a lot of postgraduate students and academics in various roles (higher concentration of intellectually gifted people likely, surely, though typically privileged "play the game" types, of course). Lots of the children in my PEGS class seemed pretty psychologically healthy to me, and still seem so as adults. Same with the postgrads and academics: there were some very emotionally healthy gifted people among them. Good self-esteem, good social skills, confident, happy, successful at something they valued. What I noticed about the *healthy* gifted children forms the basis for my "diversify" motto... they were those who *didn't* define themselves primarily by their gift and who didn't get defined as such by their parents and peers. The quietly brilliant who didn't make a fanfare about it because their ego didn't depend on feeling superior. The ones with resourcefulness and social skills who found other sources of stimulation and knew how to play their cards to avoid being socially stigmatised. Who found ways around the boredom. Who immersed themselves in e.g. ballet, role-playing, sport, music, etc. and seemed to have spread their self-esteem eggs among a few other baskets. Can't remember who gave the gifted children lecture at Melbourne Uni - it was a visiting lecturer presenting for the lunchtime seminar series, either last year or the year before. You mean, we might both have been there? Eek. Tabouli. P.S. Surprised you find the "superiority" issue so rare... academics! Aargh! Ne'er a more flourishing hotbed of intellectual supremacists have I seen in my life! I run *workshops* for academics and their towering intellectual superiority is overwhelming. You whipped out your IQ score - I have to whip out my PhD before they're prepared to listen to me. The difference it makes in their attitude is amazing. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tabouli at unite.com.au Tue Jun 4 07:06:17 2002 From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 17:06:17 +1000 Subject: Continued sewing of the gifted thread Message-ID: <009501c20b96$6f991ae0$3524ddcb@price> I knew if I tangled with this thread I'd never escape. Sucker for punishment, obviously. Amy: > My only quibble with the rest of your profile (...) is its place in the context of the original thread, which was about the validity and value of intelligence testing and in particular, the label of "gifted" or "profoundly gifted." > >In that context, you seem to be suggesting that the labels themselves are the problem, when in fact the problems you describe come from other factors: parents' and teachers' overemphasizing this one label, the child being given no realistic models but only Nobel winners and other certified lucky geniuses, the message being sent that people who don't measure up in this narrow definition of intelligence are inferior to him/her< (You mean all my posts are supposed to be consistent? Wot?) Actually, I don't think there's that much inconsistency. In my first post on this thread, which focussed more specifically on IQ tests, I said: > I have become increasingly convinced that the way "giftedness" is typically handled by well-intentioned parents and teachers is a disaster, and contributes massively to the sort of life breakdowns I have witnessed.< and: > It's as if that IQ score is magic. The hapless child, typically aged 4-7, is suddenly told that s/he is a genius, a creature superior to other mortals, who is, and this is the worst bit, Destined For Greatness.< I don't know if this is the post you're referring to, but assuming it is, I was trying to say that it's not the IQ score in itself or the label "gifted" that bothers me, it's the connotations. How people react to "giftedness". What people say to the child, how their attitudes and behaviour towards that child change once the results of the IQ tests come back. (Or when the primary school teacher observes that one of the children is way, *way* ahead of his or her peers' ability level, or whatever). And scholastic giftedness is much more likely to take over the child's identity than musical or Quidditch giftedness simply because the child is spending five days a week in an environment which focuses on this domain. Life=school + family for most kids, and if they're primarily playing Gifted Child in one or both of these, it'll have some impact on the way they view themselves. Amy: > I'm not a fan of telling children their IQs, or indeed even testing for them, but I don't believe that doing so automatically equals teaching them that intellectual superiority is their defining feature< Not in itself. However, the way the conventional Anglophone education system is set up, I'd say it takes an insightful and concentrated effort to stop, or at least dilute this effect. I mean, the system is set up under the assumption that children of the same age are at roughly the same level of ability and knowledge, which means you can deliver curricula in a more efficient way (i.e. the same curricula to groups of, say, 15-35 children at once). Moreover, the system is competitive. Children get assessed on things and they know this is a means of ranking how "smart" they are. They're interested. They want to know what their peers got. It's pretty obvious when one person always gets 100% on tests, wins spelling bees, gets gold stars and their work up on the wall, always knows the answer, finishes first, gets A+s, and, as often ends up happening, singled out for special "extension" work because they're so far ahead. Unless the child is particularly devious about hiding this in some way (playing up, deliberately doing poor work) it will be noticeable. The *other kids* will define the child by his/her superior intellectual ability. Putting the child up a few grades makes him or her stand out even more by virtue of youth. Then there's the authority figures. Again, unless the child's doing a very good disguising act, the teachers will start to notice that s/he is significantly more advanced that his/her peers at some point. I mean, they're the ones *assessing* the work, seeing that child being bored with the curricula they have to deliver, having to snub the child who always knows the right answer out of fairness to their other students. They're the one who get to see the IQ test results. By virtue of their high intellectual ability, the gifted child does not fit the system. What do they do about it? In some cases, the child will get a teacher with the time and inclination to give them "extension" work. This happened with my favorite primary school teacher. Within a few weeks of starting Grade 1, she picked out three of her class as the "bright kids" who could already read, etc., and gave us special activity books to do while everyone else was learning how to read. Now of course it's *good* to stimulate a bored gifted child, mind you, but it does kind of rub in that you are so smart you need special individual treatment, no? And when you're in a competitive system where the best is the thing to be, well, it's kind of hard for the child not to feel pleased about it. I've been picked out as one of the smartest kids in the class, Mum! Then we have the teachers who, juggling the gifted and struggling contingents in a limited time frame, feel that the latter need the extra time and attention because the former are clearly not going to end up illiterate and unemployable. Well, fair enough, but it does mean getting some very bored and restless gifted kids who don't learn anything about putting in effort and so on. Give 'em books to read or something (easy, quick option)? Probably, but the other kids will notice that. How come *he* gets to read while we're working? Because he's finished, Lucy. Yup, that smart kid definition is on the way. Then we get the delightful ones who actively resent gifted children, because they're disrupting their lesson plans and perhaps because on some level they feel threatened (e.g. my Grade 2 teacher, who was reading a book aloud to the class, chapter by chapter, which I'd long since read myself. I timidly asked if I could read something else during reading time, and she was livid. How dare you, you can sit and listen like everyone else!). And, of course, there's the parents. Let's be fair here. English-speaking societies are intrinsically competitive. In employment, education, the media, the same message: the "best" person for the job, the "best" student, the most beautiful model, etc.etc. People don't just suddenly discard all of that after giving birth. You don't have to be bent to want your child to be successful, and let's face it, the most concrete measure of "success" once the child starts school is scholastic achievement. What parents could be unmoved by the teacher ringing to tell them that little Kevin is gifted, and therefore in some way "better" than his peers and has what it takes to WIN in the scholastic competition of his early life? In terms of the school environment, it's a significant discovery. They have to respond in some way, and their response is crucial. If the child is lucky, the parents will be reasonably level-headed and realistic about what the giftedness tag means, try not to let it take over the child's entire persona, etc. If not, well... ...let's whip up some archetypes here of Dodgy Parental Reactions I Have Known (not mutually exclusive, of course, and can be exhibited to varying degrees) (tongue slightly in cheek here, I should add to any bristling parents out there...) 1. Child as Messiah: Common among parents who've never knowingly encountered anyone "gifted" in their life. Dazzled by visions of stratospherically successful world leaders in the field of endeavour of choice, convinced that this means their child will be among them. Treat child with reverence. Child is superior being beyond their comprehension. Leave dealing with giftedness to educators. 2. Child as Trophy: The reaction of choice for the competitive and image conscious. The child is family mascot, whose job is to produce brilliant achievements and impress people with them. Success is expected and taken for granted. Expectations still stratospheric (get that degree before the age of 18! Win that maths competition!), but the difference is the parent involves him or herself in the process, applying pressure. Any failure in this duty is laziness and bad attitude, as child is gifted, after all. 3. Child as Threat: Popular among parents who feel inadequate about their own level of achievement in life, who consciously or subconsciously resent the child for having opportunities they didn't. Find ways of undermining child, purportedly to stop child "getting above him/herself" because of giftedness. My father and two exes both fall into the first category for an obvious reason: all three were born into poor working class families. The problem being that almost all dazzling fields of achievement which involve intellectual prowess require entry into the middle class before they can be embarked upon. Which means if they are going to approach the glory they have been told is rightfully theirs, they need the social skills to negotiate a class jump. Not easy. Not easy at all. My father managed it, albeit with a lot of struggling: my exes didn't. Me? My father, having had parents who didn't understand at all what being intellectually gifted meant (both left school at 13, and my grandfather wanted to pull my 15yo father out of that poncy school to which he got a scholarship and get him a real man's job), was *determined* not to do the same to me. Ooo no. He was archetype 2 all the way. He was a *very* involved father. He *researched* how to stimulate my mind. He gave me IQ and reading tests from about the age of 6. He gave me books (thanks Dad!), he tried to interest me in chess and mathematical puzzles (uh, no joy there). He was obsessed with my academic performance. After joining the gifted program he wanted a complete rundown on every test I sat, where I came in relation to my peers, the class average, etc. Showed my achievements off to his friends whenever possible. Came down on me heavily if I didn't perform, made it clear that my job was to be The Best at things. My mother, alas, didn't much like the amount of attention he gave me, and plumped for 3, of course, and my brother joined in wholeheartedly. As, it seems, did both of poor Catlady's parents in her case. Catlady (quoting me): >> My thoughts (for what they're worth without extensive research into >> the area!) are that gifted children should be encouraged to >> *diversify*. > >IE forced by parents to do things that one is no good at (and often not interested in), so that one can fail over and over, and be terribly frustrated, and be mocked and taunted, and then go home to parents ranting about you not trying hard enough.< "Huh! You think you're great just because someone said you were "gifted", don't you? *We'll* show you!" Type 3 parents. Unenviable. An unfortunate friend of mine has an archetype 3 mother to the core. Every time she did brilliantly at something academic her mother would crush her with scathing comments about her appearance or character or friends or whatever else was handy and tell her "not to get ideas above her station". What I meant by diversify wasn't force the child into doing things s/he is bad at, it was giving the child the opportunity to find a niche *outside* the school environment which defines him/her as "superior" in the main areas of assessment (not bullied into extending into ever more domains where excelling is expected a la archetype 2 parents). Where, hopefully, the child can be something other than the Gifted Kid, and learn about effort, and humility, and not needing to be good at everything, and respecting people as equals, and being treated as an ordinary kid not a gifted kid. Though really, as Naama says, the gifted child problem is probably a symptom of the way our competitive, individualistic society works. It's that ol' "what you receive should reflect how much effort you put in" level playing field concept. Lots of people don't like them goldarn Overdogs whose lives they imagine to be rendered glorious by virtue of some unearned genetic gift, like being beautiful or gifted, and they rush in to deliver compensatory punishment to redress the balance. Make things fair. Find the flaws in the beautiful woman and trash her (yep, Rita, I totally agree with your comments on putting all eggs in the beauty basket being a similar thing: I ranted at length about this last year on OT, IIRC). Squash the intelligent child. With the result that the beautiful/gifted/etc. frequently don't end up having the glorious life they're assumed to at all, they're too busy dealing with all the people trying to cut them down and often get driven into clinging to their asset and adopting supreme isolation as a comfort. One more musing re Shaun's comments: if research suggests gifted children's social and emotional adjustment difficulties are a myth, how does that fit in with your earlier comments about them being at risk and disadvantaged, putting them up grades to have people on their level to talk to so they have a higher change of making friends, suicide and mental illness rates, boredom, frustration, etc.? On a final note, my inestimable mainland Chinese friend Kaiyu (soon expecting his first child!) told me that the Chinese *don't* separate ability from effort the way we do. Diligence is smart! A child who has ability but does not work hard is not considered intelligent. An adult who has ability but does not know how to use it to make money is *stupid*. Defining "intelligence" closer to "resourcefulness", eh? Interesting, I thought. Made sudden sense of the day when a Chinese guy in my class came up after I did well on some test and said he admired me because I "worked so hard". What??? thought the western-raised Tabouli indignantly. Is he implying I have to *work hard* to get good results? What an insult! (see also gifted child syndrome). Very interesting. Any cross-cultural research into giftedness, Shaun? Tabouli. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From drednort at alphalink.com.au Tue Jun 4 09:21:06 2002 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 19:21:06 +1000 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Continued sewing of the gifted thread In-Reply-To: <009501c20b96$6f991ae0$3524ddcb@price> Message-ID: <3CFD1322.18745.148FD85@localhost> I'll just reply to the specific questions asked of me, and I hope come back to the rest later. On 4 Jun 2002 at 17:06, Tabouli wrote: > One more musing re Shaun's comments: if research suggests gifted children's > social and emotional adjustment difficulties are a myth, how does that fit in with > your earlier comments about them being at risk and disadvantaged, putting them > up grades to have people on their level to talk to so they have a higher change of > making friends, suicide and mental illness rates, boredom, frustration, etc.? Because the risk is artificially created. If a gifted child is receiving education appropriate to their level of ability, and are not forced to spend upwards of 5 hours day putting up with an environment that was designed to work for a totally different level of ability, they have no real problems. Very, very few gifted children start school with any type of emotional issues - the issues are created by inappropriate schooling. They are not inherent in the child, they are created by the education system. Boredom and frustration, especially. The situations I've talked about - for example, my cohort in a research program, I specifically referred to lack of support. That's what makes the difference. Now - if the support needed was something truly unusual, it could be argued that just the fact of the support being needed shows real problems exits. But it's not unusual - what these kids need is simply what is supposed to be provided to the average child as a matter of course - an education that is appropriate to their level of ability. The average 7 year old spends their day in a classroom that is aimed at them. The gifted 7 year old should have the same - and when they don't, problems develop. The less appropriate the classroom, the more likely problems are to develop. There's nothing wrong with the child - it's the system they are in. In the social sense, gifted children rarely have problems making friends etc, because they lack social skills. It's quite the opposite - the problems occur because the other children around them do not the same level of social skills. Other kids don't want to be their friends, because they don't understand the gifted child. As succesful friendships work both ways, this is a major problem - but it's not a problem with the gifted child - they are simply beyond what the other kids want in terms of friendship. You've mentioned roleplaying games a couple of times, so I assume you have at least some, possibly a lot more than just some, knowledge of them. I've been playing D&D since I was 7 - can you imagine how many 7 year olds are capable of playing in a game of that type? Who have the literacy level needed to handle the books, the arithmetical skills to handle the calculations, a decent knowledge and understanding of fantasy literature which allows them to understand the conventions of a campaign world... there are some - but only a small minority of 7 year olds will have the ability, and the interest, and the attention span to play such a game. When a child wants to play D&D and the only kids around them still have arguments after how many spaces to move the counter when they roll a 6 in Snakes and Ladders... well, basically, in those types of environments making friends becomes much harder for a gifted child - not because they lack social skills, or any other skills. If anything, it's because they have too many. That doesn't mean there aren't gifted kids with genuine emotional and social problems totally unrelated to the fact they are receiving inappropriate schooling - there are. But they do not seem to be any more common than in the general population. > On a final note, my inestimable mainland Chinese friend Kaiyu (soon expecting > his first child!) told me that the Chinese *don't* separate ability from effort the way > we do. Diligence is smart! A child who has ability but does not work hard is not > considered intelligent. An adult who has ability but does not know how to use it to > make money is *stupid*. Defining "intelligence" closer to "resourcefulness", eh? > Interesting, I thought. Made sudden sense of the day when a Chinese guy in my > class came up after I did well on some test and said he admired me because I > "worked so hard". What??? thought the western-raised Tabouli indignantly. Is he > implying I have to *work hard* to get good results? What an insult! (see also > gifted child syndrome). > > Very interesting. Any cross-cultural research into giftedness, Shaun? Some - but not a huge amount. Basically, the same general issues exist in all industrialised cultures (I'm not sure about others - haven't seen any research on those). *However* some cultures place a lot more emphasis on working hard than others do, in general. Asian families, and Jewish families are the ones who most often show up in the research, as having, in general, much stronger work ethics when it comes to academic study - it's been suggested that this comes, at least partly, from historical prejudice - these groups had to work much harder to get what they wanted, to deal with the handicaps society imposed on them, and so they came to value work more. Immigrants into countries also generally do well - because they are driven to succeed. That relates to work ethic more than anything else - but where intellectual and academic achievement is regarded as good, it can make it easier on gifted kids as well - because if they want academic success, it's easier to do it, and not stand out. Andrew Bolt's column in today (or yesterday's) Herald-Sun discusses this type of thing - if you can tolerate reading the man (-8 Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately |webpage: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) |email: drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil | Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From s_ings at yahoo.com Tue Jun 4 12:28:19 2002 From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 08:28:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Two more birthdays! Message-ID: <20020604122819.48225.qmail@web14602.mail.yahoo.com> *places many-tiered cake on a the table and starts unpacking a very, very large box of decorations* Hey, you. Yes, you. Don't just stand there, give me a hand with these decorations. We have lots to celebrate this week. Today's birthday honourees are Lissanne and Stacey. Birthday owls can be sent to this list or directly to Lissanne at: lissannejones at hotmail.com or to Stacey at: phatass at asshat.org I know this is a little late for Lissanne, as she's in Australia, but isn't it the thought that counts? :-D I hope both birthdays are wonderful and filled with joy and magic. Happy Birthday, Lissanne! Happy Birthday, Stacey! Sheryll P.S. leave those decorations up, we have another birthday tomorrow. :) ===== "We need to be united and strong. We'll have losses and scares, sure. And you'll be there for each other, helping each other through the bad times." blpurdom - Harry Potter and the Psychic Serpent, Chapter 26 ______________________________________________________________________ Movies, Music, Sports, Games! http://entertainment.yahoo.ca From witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 4 20:53:31 2002 From: witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com (Wanda the Witch) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 13:53:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Two more birthdays! In-Reply-To: <20020604122819.48225.qmail@web14602.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20020604205331.61645.qmail@web13702.mail.yahoo.com> Sheryll Townsend wrote: I know this is a little late for Lissanne, as she's in Australia, but isn't it the thought that counts? :-D I hope both birthdays are wonderful and filled with joy and magic. Happy Birthday, Lissanne! Happy Birthday, Stacey! Sheryll P.S. leave those decorations up, we have another birthday tomorrow. :) Well, well, well! Double Party Time! Yippy! Sure we will help you, Sheryll! HAPPY BIRTHDAY LISSANNE! HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO STACEY! HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO BOTH OF YOU! Alright, food, drinks, and magic! May you both have all of it and your Birthday wishes too! Schnoogles, Wanda the Witch ofRevere,Massachusetts and Her Very Merry Band of Muggles 100% "When you come to the edge of all the light you know, and are about to step off into the darkness of the unknown, faith is knowing one of two things will happen; There will be something solid to stand on, or you will be taught how to fly."......Unknown. --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Sign-up for Video Highlights of 2002 FIFA World Cup [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From southernscotland at yahoo.com Wed Jun 5 00:41:00 2002 From: southernscotland at yahoo.com (southernscotland) Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 00:41:00 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter fanfic - best ways to find the best? Message-ID: Hello! Anybody have hints on how to find the best fanfic? Of course, I love FictionAlley and all its incarnations, plus Sugarquill. Additionally, I have subscribed to most of the Yahoo! groups. However, authors also do post on that Humongous Bigheaded site called fanfiction.net. It currently drives me crazy. Has anyone here subscribed to their enhanced service? If so, would you recommend it to help "sift through the masses"? (as of now, they list over 35,000 Harry Potter stories!) The enhanced service features advanced search, but at least part of that seems to have been placed on the free site, too, recently. Any and all navigation and other tips appreciated! Thanks! lilahp (who is taking out her frustration on fanfiction, since Book 5 seems to be taking its own sweet time) From kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk Wed Jun 5 00:52:45 2002 From: kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk (Kathryn) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 01:52:45 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time) Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Harry Potter fanfic - best ways to find the best? References: Message-ID: <3CFD60DD.000001.46567@monica> Has anyone here subscribed to their enhanced service? If so, would you recommend it to help "sift through the masses"? (as of now, they list over 35,000 Harry Potter stories!) The enhanced service features advanced search, but at least part of that seems to have been placed on the free site, too, recently. Any and all navigation and other tips appreciated! Thanks! lilahp (who is taking out her frustration on fanfiction, since Book 5 seems to be taking its own sweet time) I'm paying for their enhanced service but I don't think it's worth it for their enhanced search thingy. I'm there for the author alerts and the enhanced stats.I find that it's no easier to locate decent fic using the enhanced search than with the normal search, and that it's easier to find fic by pairing with the normal one. K From goddess at yaoigoddess.com Tue Jun 4 13:15:11 2002 From: goddess at yaoigoddess.com (Rochelle) Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 09:15:11 -0400 Subject: New person says "Hi!" Message-ID: <3CFCBD5F.44F70488@yaoigoddess.com> What the title says. ;) Anyway, my name is Rochelle, I'm 26, I live in the States, and while I found the main list (HP4GU) awhile ago, it's taken me a few months to join. I think all the rules made me a bit nervous. *g* I first started reading Harry Potter books about two years ago, when GoF came out in the States. There'd been a lot of fuss surrounding this series and since the media reported that this book was where the series took a darker turn (I have an odd affinity for that sort of thing), I ended up reading the last book first -- in about three days. From then on, I was absolutely hooked and had to read the other three. Almost a year later, though, my interest in the seies took an unexpected twist: I stumbled across a Web ring for Harry Potter slash. I was shocked, of course; even though I'm a certifiable slash fiend and the idea of Ron being what Harry would "sorely miss" [GoF, p.463] made me go, "Hm," something in my brain just couldn't accept the idea of putting Harry Potter and slash in the same sentence. Then, someone told me about the HPSlash list and... well.... Let's just say I got over self-imposed inhibitions. Going with the odds, nobody here has heard of anything I've written. *g* But my main project right now is Dying of the Light, my version of Severus Snape's mysterious past. I adore the character, and I love to pick apart his psyche. If anyone wants to see what I've come up with so far, you can reach it either through FFN (the link to all the stories I've posted there is in my sig) or through the direct link to the story on my site. It's eight-chapters-plus-a-prologue long so far. Right now, I'm working on the ninth, and there will probably be twelve total, plus the epilogue. I hope to finish it by the end of the month, although that may be pushing it. I plan to write at least two more novel-length stories involving Snape in the future... and both of them are... het? O_o The main reason I'm taking them on is because writing these pairings plausibly will present a nice challenge, and I never could resist a challenge. My favorite characters include Severus Snape (naturally), Remus Lupin (who can resist?), and Sirius Black. I also have a morbid sort of fascination with Voldemort. What can I say, the man is DETERMINED, and I tend to admire his sheer ambition. Heh, I guess it's no surprise that every single Sorting Hat quiz I take lands me in Slytherin. I guess that's it; nice to meet everyone. And even if you don't see me very much, I'll be seeing you. :) *Rochelle. -- http://www.YaoiGoddess.com/ --Long Live the Slash. http://www.fanfiction.net/profile.php?userid=26023 --My fics on FFN. http://www.YaoiGoddess.com/light/ --Unlock the mysteries of Severus Snape in "Dying of the Light." ------------------ From s_ings at yahoo.com Wed Jun 5 11:36:23 2002 From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 07:36:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Happy Birthday, Angela! Message-ID: <20020605113623.98441.qmail@web14604.mail.yahoo.com> *checks to make sure decorations are still up, flings confetti around for good measure, and places yet another cake on the side table* Today's birthday honouree is Angela Burgess. You can send her birthday owls care of this list or directly to: MmeBurgess at msn.com I hope you have a wonderful day, filled with everything magical. Happy Birthday, Angela! Sheryll ===== "We need to be united and strong. We'll have losses and scares, sure. And you'll be there for each other, helping each other through the bad times." blpurdom - Harry Potter and the Psychic Serpent, Chapter 26 ______________________________________________________________________ Movies, Music, Sports, Games! http://entertainment.yahoo.ca From cindysphynx at comcast.net Wed Jun 5 13:38:24 2002 From: cindysphynx at comcast.net (cindysphynx) Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 13:38:24 -0000 Subject: Underachievement rates among those gifted children In-Reply-To: <3CF8A80A.12958.7B239@localhost> Message-ID: I've been listening in on this lengthy and very interesting discussion of gifted children. I certainly agree with a lot of what has been said: that gifted children have special educational needs, that an inappropriate education will cause problems for them and so forth. There are, however, a few things about the conversation that I find rather troubling. So I think I'll just go ahead and raise these issues in my capacity as interested lay bystander. I mean no disrespect to anyone who has weighed in with their own views or experiences on this issue, of course. But if we're going to discuss it, we might as well ask some of the Tough Questions. Of special concern to me is the idea that gifted children "underachieve" in substantial numbers. Or, as Shaun put it (Message 10,871): >The problem is that over 50% of gifted children are underachievers - >and the higher you get up the scale of giftedness (there are >generally considered by experts to be three or four levels of >giftedness - each with significantly different educational needs) - >the higher that proportion is - and a significant number of these >kids are underachievers because their school environment is >inappropriate to them. Goodness! If it were true that 50% of gifted children are underachievers, and if this could be documented, it would be rather alarming indeed. After all, if half of any population is failing at something worthwhile that they ought to be able to do and want to do, then this is certainly cause for concern. But as the discussion has progressed, I find myself wondering whether we are anywhere *close* to establishing that 50% of gifted children underachieve. Much of our discussion so far has involved anecdotal evidence ?- interesting, probative to some extent perhaps, but far from sufficient to make such a sweeping and important statement. On the other hand, I sense a feeling from Shaun that his views and advocacy are based on more than anecdotal evidence (Message 10,937): >[W]hat I advocate is based on solid research AND >I don't advocate these practices unless I know they work. Unless I >know that (1) there is a solid body of research evidence to back >them up, (2) that there is no significant level of evidence to >oppose the[m] . . . " (Message 10,922) It seems to me that before we can launch into an analysis of whether gifted children underachieve (whether based on anecdotal evidence or solid research), we should acknowledge that we have quite a number of obstacles in our path: 1. We have to define underachievement, either objectively or subjectively. 2. If we use an objective measure of achievement, we will need to make a number of value judgments about what constitutes achievement versus failure/underachievement. 3. If we use a subjective measure premised on the child's own internal goals and aspirations, we will have to be confident that the child's views are indeed the child's own assessment, not the assessment of others or the result of pressure or influence. We will also have to decide how to discern whether a shift in goal is underachievement or merely a change in aspirations. 4. Whether we use an objective or subjective measure, we must somehow discern whether the child had an ability in the first place to achieve whatever the child failed to achieve. This might in turn require us to examine whether the assessment that labeled the child as gifted (frequently the child's performance on an IQ test, if I understand correctly) has any meaningful relationship to the ability to achieve a particular goal. All of this strikes me as immensely complex, to tell you the truth. Apparently, there has been some research indicating that 50% of gifted children underachieve. If I'm reading our discussion correctly, however, the major studies and published research to date use *objective* measures of whether the children are underachieving, not *subjective* measures. Elkins asked about this (Message 10,957): >So *are* there, in fact, any studies that have used the [subjective] definition >that you gave above as their standard, and then gone on to find >similarly high rates of underachieving among the top twentieth >percentile? Shaun replied (Message 10,982): >There's been a lot of new research done over the last 7 years, a >fair amount of which hasn't been formally published yet - much to >my chagrin, because I have written a chapter of one of the books >that is sitting around waiting for publication (-8 I don't know the >exact reasons for the delays - the papers and books are ready, and >have often been accepted for publication - then they just sit >there. . . . That study isn't ready for publication yet - they'd >like to double the sample size, and part of the study is intended to >continue for at least another five years to study medium term >effects, but it's found around half of all gifted children >underachieve to at least a moderate level, under the >definition I gave. Now, I'm no expert, and I certainly haven't read any of the studies that Shaun and Elkins discussed. But reading between the lines here, it sounds like there *is no* completed, published, peer- reviewed study at all that uses a *subjective* measure to assess whether a gifted child is an underachiever and whether 50% of gifted children underachieve. At the moment, we just don't know one way or the other, apparently. If I've read this right (and please correct me if I'm wrong), then I *really* start to wonder about the foundation for the statement that half of gifted children underachieve. The reason for my concern is that the statement seems based on external, objective measures of achievement coupled with a rather wobbly assessment of whether the child had an ability to achieve in the first instance. One problem is that the statement assumes that the mere fact that a child has been identified as gifted or even profoundly gifted (apparently based on IQ, primarily) means that the child *should* go on to "achieve." That, I think, is a huge leap, and an unfounded one. After all, as several people have pointed out, IQ tests measure only one very narrow component of what it takes to achieve. Indeed, Shaun indicated that a very tight definition of intelligence is used (Message 10,875): >Intelligence is generally defined for psychological purposes as the >ability to comprehend cognitive complexity - a very tight >definition. While this isn't the same as logic or reasoning >ability, it correlates very highly with them (estimated correlation >is better than 0.9) - you don't often get correlations that high in >psychological tests. It still means it's not perfect - but it's >very close, and extremely useful. Therefore, it seems to do the child an injustice to rely on an IQ test to decide that he/she is capable of "achieving" (whatever that means) and will be labeled an underachiever if he/she does not. This is particularly so in light of the fact that "achievement" requires much more than just the ability to reason, and Shaun acknowledged as much in Message 10,887): >I think resourcefullness is more important than IQ. So is self >discipline and a variety of other things. It seems inherently unfair to me to measure a child's ability to reason, to then acknowledge that many other qualities influence success and achievement, but to label gifted children who have not been proven to have these other qualities as "underachievers" if they fail to achieve. Ah, but that takes us to the real problem in my eyes ? the definition of achievement. Whether you use a subjective or objective definition, deciding whether anyone underachieved is fraught with uncertainty ?- to the point that I cannot see the value of even asking the question. Let me take Shaun's example of the 8-year-old boy who wanted to be an engineer. Let me then admit I know precious little about engineering, so I'll tinker with the hypothetical to change the child's goal to something that gives me a more secure footing in this discussion. Let's assume instead that the 8-year-old boy wants to be a federal court judge in the U.S. This child just loves the law with a passion, and he tests profoundly gifted in IQ and has no learning disabilities. IQ supposedly measures "ability to comprehend cognitive complexity", practicing law certainly requires that ability, so the child's goal arguably bears some relationship to the proficiency he displayed on the IQ test. In fact, Shaun suggests that we should further assume that our profoundly gifted boy isn't just a one-trick pony (Message 10,907): >Most profoundly gifted kids are fairly 'evenly' gifted - their >level of academic ability is about the same across all areas of >learning (about - not totally). There are some with domain specific >gifts, as there are among all people - but that's a minority. Better yet, Shaun suggests that we can also safely assume that our profoundly gifted boy is not socially stunted and relates to others just fine (Message 11,026): >In the social sense, gifted children rarely have problems making >friends etc, because they lack social skills. It's quite the >opposite - the problems occur because the other children around >them do not [have] the same level of social skills. Fast forward to adulthood. If the child is just a lawyer instead of a federal judge, has he objectively failed to achieve? How about if he is a document clerk in a law firm? Legal secretary? Court bailiff or court reporter? How about if he attends law school for one year, decides he hates law after all, drops out, and happily begins teaching in a pre-school? How about if the child winds up in a low-status/low-paid position of any sort without ever pursuing his childhood passion for the law? I don't know for sure what the studies that use objective measures would say to these questions, but I have a feeling that even if the child were happy teaching pre-school, there would be a feeling (among parents, teachers, researchers and psychologists) that the child had "underachieved." I somehow suspect that "achievement" is defined to some extent by status, prestige and compensation, although I certainly hope that I am wrong about that. And I don't think that is fair or right. After all, there is much, much more to becoming a judge or even a lawyer than the ability to do well on an IQ test, or even the ability to reason. The sad fact may simply be that the child did not have the ability (i.e. talent) to achieve this goal, despite being "intelligent." So what do we hope to gain by labeling the child as an "underachiever?" Ironically, even using subjective measures, the children most likely to be labeled underachievers might be those who set ambitious/prestigious goals for themselves or who have adults in their lives who set these goals for them. I find myself wondering whether a child who sets a goal "beneath" the expectations of parents, teachers and psychologists will receive tremendous pressure to set a higher goal. Perhaps the 8-year-old who does high-school level math is free to declare that he "just" he wishes to teach pre- school, but I have trouble imagining that this goal wouldn't be questioned early and often. And if the child is abandoning a previous lofty goal, I worry that the child will encounter adult resistance to some extent. Shaun wrote (Message 10,982): >As for changing goals, we basically accept them as the child's >right to change. If we think they are making a mistake, we may >advise against it and explain why we think it's a mistake - but >really it's their choice in the end, and our responsibility is to >help it happen. I would imagine that it is the rare child indeed who would be willing to downsize his/her goals or switch to a totally different area of interest in the face of adult advice to the contrary. The result, I would imagine, might be a child who goes with the flow, who sticks with the areas in which he is believed to be gifted, only to be tagged as an underachiever should he finally decide to change his goals or pursue another path for whatever reason. After all, we don't label non-gifted children as underachievers if they do not reach goals they set for themselves or if they don't reach some objective measure of achievement. There are many internal and external reasons beyond ability that a person might not reach a goal. As I understand the subjective definition of "underachiever" that Shaun has used, it is (Message 10,922): > "A person who is not achieving at a particular level, who is known > to have both the ability and the desire to achieve at that level." I'll use myself as an example here, just to see how I measure up. I've always wanted to be a judge, I still want to be a judge, I have the ability to be a judge, and I even have the academic and professional credentials to be a judge. Nevertheless, I am not a judge and will probably never attain this goal. There are at least two reasons that come to mind why someone like me might not achieve a life goal. First, sometimes people make perfectly legitimate decisions that move them away from reaching their goal (the decision to put one's profession on hold in favor of raising children is one example, but there are many others). Second, there can be external factors that impede achievement of the goal (lack of political connections that would lead to appointment to the bench). Under Shaun's subjective definition of "underachiever," I am a textbook underachiever. Yet no one has ever claimed I was underachieving by any subjective or objective measure. And why is that? Well, there is one thing missing from my profile that separates me from the 8-year-old boy in my hypothetical example earlier -- I never scored as gifted or profoundly gifted on an IQ test. It strikes me as quite misguided to suggest that changing one thing about my life (whether I score high on an IQ test or other tests as a youngster) would earn me the label "underachiever". All of this leads me to think that, despite the best intentions of those involved with gifted children, gifted children are being saddled with an obligation that other children do not have -? the *obligation* to succeed/achieve. There might even be a feeling that the gifted child owes a bit of a debt to society ? the obligation not to "waste" their God-given talents and abilities. The gifted child must carry all of that baggage, based on someone else's narrow assessment of what those gifts are, what the child could be expected to do with those gifts, and whether the child has milked sufficient results from them. That said, I wonder whether, in the zeal to advocate the interests of gifted children, we might be overstating the case just a bit. After all, educational resources are limited. Gifted children must compete for these resources with LD children and "average" children. Perhaps raising with alarm the possibility that gifted children will "underachieve" and thereby waste their considerable talents -? talents that could change the world ?- is seen as a way to secure greater resources for gifted children. Perhaps it might even work. I have to wonder, however, whether we're necessarily doing gifted children a favor by saddling them with these expectations and obligations. Before we do, I'd at least like to see additional solid evidence that gifted children are at greater risk of "underachieving" than anyone else and that there is a darn good reason to label half of gifted children as "underachievers." Cindy From naama_gat at hotmail.com Wed Jun 5 14:59:59 2002 From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naamagatus) Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 14:59:59 -0000 Subject: Underachievement rates among those gifted children In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi, If I understand Shaun correctly, I think that when he refers to underachievers, it is in the context of academic achievement. So, for him, a child (or an adult) who wishes to reach a certain level of knowledge (or master some specific subject matter) and has the ability to do so, is an underachiever if he doesn't do so. In real life it's so difficult to measure underachievement, isn't it? There are competing priorities and goals. There are so many and diverse objective and subjective difficulties. Certainly for research purposes, I would think that underachievement can only be defined in relation to a specific, isolable sphere of activity (e.g., academy, athletics, etc.). Naama From Ali at zymurgy.org Wed Jun 5 15:03:03 2002 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (alhewison) Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 15:03:03 -0000 Subject: Siblings of Gifted Children Message-ID: I've been reading the threads about Gifted Children with great interest, but my only experience is being the sister of a gifted boy (and now married to a gifted man). Whilst reading about "gifted" children, I've come to believe that gifted is a misnoma - "burdened" would be a better description. Certaily my brothers gift had a profound affect on both him, and my sister and I. I don't think that I was marginalised by my parents - at certain times I would have monopolised my parents attention, BUT my brother's gift was an ongoing issue throughout our childhood - and beyond. My brother's high IQ meant that at 10 he was doing O'Level Maths Questions (normally taken by 15/16 year olds). He was nicknamed the "Professor" at Primary School, and would sit reading during playtime when the rest of the kids were playing football etc. The education authority's special adviser actually told my parents that our local state schools would not be able to help him and suggested that he be sent to a particular private school which would be able to cope with his needs better* He was always targeted and noticeable through school, and I was bullied, not for what I was, but because I was his sister. * I don't actually know whether Britain does now have special programmes for "Gifted" kids, but certainly in the 70's and 80's nothing was apparent. Given that we lived in London and my father was a teacher, we would have had access to them if they did exist. Equally, I have never heard of children jumping years in the State sector - though I know of several people who advanced A year in the private sector. This might have something to do with the fact that kids automatically progress to the next years whether they pass their exams or not. My brother cotinued to excel in all things academic. The number of teachers etc who told my parents that he was the brightest thing they had ever seen... In this respect I really do identify with "Ron"; I was always expected to do OK, but if I did, it was nothing special as my brother had already done it. My parents did try to give us equal opportunities, and nearly bankrupted themselves by sending us to the same Private school. I think that part of the problem for me was that there was only 1 school year between my brother and me - and I was forever in his shadow. If I got a question wrong, more than one teacher told me to ask my brother, and he was frequently mentioned as how things could be done. I can remember not having to have an audition for the school choir as my brother had perfect pitch. altough I can sing ok, I forever felt like a fraud as though I'd got in on somebody else's merit. I was always desperate to do well as I wanted to be "special" too, and consequently often felt like a failure. If I worked hard for an exam, I'd often panic because I so wanted to achieve - and make it impossible for myself. I liked Tabouli's thread on the Western issue of "working hard" - I certainly wanted to succeed effortlessly, and can remember being mortified by my father proudly telling people how hard I worked. It just seemed to undermine my sense of failure. In the UK we specialise early, so I of course made sure that all my favourite subjects were different to my brother's. Whilst he did Science and Maths A'Levels, I did History, Latin and Greek. I could actually enjoy doing subjects he'd never done, and there could be no comparison. I hit problems at University. For years I had wanted to be a Solicitor, and study Law. My brother went to Cambridge to read Maths, got bored after a year, and decided he wanted to do someting different - Medicine or Law. Medicine was full, so he changed to Law. We therefore started our Law Degrees together. Given that we went to different Universities, nobody would really have been able to compare us, but I couldn't cope with him doing "my" subject. I did get my degree - somehow, but I never did take up my place at Law School. My brother is still a happily practicing solicitor. I still hanker after Law, but now couldn't afford to go to Law School. At the time I couldn't have done it. I guess in a very long- winded way, I fully accept that being "Gifted" is a challenge. But it is also very difficult being held in the spot light because of somebody's else - which you have no control over - and found wanting. By the way, I'm actually very happy now. I feel a bit embarassed that I am possibly at my happiest, now as a full-time Mum. At the moment anyway, I don't feel judged, or a failure. I am often bored with being just with my 4 and 2 year old - but truthfully, I was often bored in my last job. Of course many of my friends think that I've thrown away my education/ career etc, for me though, I've simply put them on hold. When I do go back to work in a couple of years, I really think I'll have stepped out of my "failure" strait jacket which has dogged me since childhood. Ali who apologises for waffling so much, and who never realised that Harry Potter would help exorcise some of the demons of her childhood! From tabouli at unite.com.au Wed Jun 5 15:08:26 2002 From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 01:08:26 +1000 Subject: Craven cravin' and the Bugle of the Broad Bean Message-ID: <002701c20ca2$f2ef4ec0$2325ddcb@price> Time for a new and thrumming thread, I feel... on food cravings! Now there's a subject. A friend of mine was studying homeopathy, and I volunteered to help her with a clinical assignment. The aim was to practise the sort of interview a homeopath would conduct with a new patient. Sounded interesting. My, the questions she asked! Among them was "whereabouts on your body do you get acne, if you get it?" and, the relevant one, "do you crave sweet or savory foods?" Fascinating. IIRC, she was trying to pick which homeopathic "style" or whatever I belonged to. Does anyone know more about this? When I crave things, I usually crave savory food. I mean, I like chocolate and all, but my body seems to want salt. Occasionally I also get strange and very specific cravings. One night I was beset by the Bugle of the Broad Bean, and ended up driving to the 24 hour supermarket to buy some at 1am. Then there was the Call of the Coconut a few weeks later. I dread to think what might happen if I get pregnant. Tell me, all you mothers out there, did you get weird food cravings during pregnancy? A currently pregnant friend told me she is craving strawberries, which evoked wise nods from someone I told. Ah yes, strawberries have folate, you see. Nutrients for child's developing nervous system. Now, if pregnancy cravings are the body's way of demanding a particular nutrient for the fetus, surely non-pregnant cravings shouldn't be ignored either. I've long suspected that they are the body's way of telling you what it needs. I know lots of people laugh ruefully and say well in that case my body always needs chocolate, but I think there are cravings and there are... hankerings (!). So, what thoughts? Let's hear the craven cravin' stories... Tabouli. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bray.262 at osu.edu Wed Jun 5 11:22:44 2002 From: bray.262 at osu.edu (Rachel Bray) Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 11:22:44 +0000 (EST5EDT) Subject: Interesting headline appeared on my desk.... Message-ID: I went to pick up some odds and ends in another office and when I came back, a news article headline from the magazine Sound and Vision was on my desk: "XM and Sirius go head to head on a Rocky Mountain road trip" the note attached said "Someone better alert the Ministry of Magic!" :-) Rachel Bray The Ohio State University Fees, Deposits and Disbursements LORD OF THE SNITCH Three men form the chaser-squad under the sky Seven are the teammates on their brooms of wood Two are Bludger balls charmed to fly One is the dork Ref all on his own On the field of Quidditch where the Quaffles lie. One Snitch flits over all, one grab will win it One game may take three months, or may take but a minute On the field of Quidditch where the Quaffles lie. http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From Joanne0012 at aol.com Wed Jun 5 15:38:33 2002 From: Joanne0012 at aol.com (joanne0012) Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 15:38:33 -0000 Subject: Craven cravin' and the Bugle of the Broad Bean In-Reply-To: <002701c20ca2$f2ef4ec0$2325ddcb@price> Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "Tabouli" wrote: > Tell me, all you mothers out there, did you get weird food cravings during . >pregnancy? A currently pregnant friend told me she is craving strawberries, >which evoked wise nods from someone I told. Ah yes, strawberries have folate, >you see. Nutrients for child's developing nervous system. Just FYI, the crucial developmental phase that has been linked to folate occurs during the first month after conception, which is before most cravings would arise. Which is why women are advised to take folate before getting pregnant. When I was expecting my first child, I got a craving for a pizza with fried eggs on it. (Had never wanted a fried egg before in my life, nor since.) Well, I WAS underweight at the time . . . From bray.262 at osu.edu Wed Jun 5 12:18:52 2002 From: bray.262 at osu.edu (Rachel Bray) Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 12:18:52 +0000 (EST5EDT) Subject: Craven cravin' and the Bugle of the Broad Bean Message-ID: <1A678700F@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu> When I'm big-time PMSing, all I want to eat is Chinese food and chocolate ice cream (anything added to it is fine (marshmallow, nuts, etc) as long as the base ice cream is chocolate). I even get the shakes I crave it so badly. Other times I crave cheeseburgers. I could be sitting in the middle of class or a meeting and all the sudden a cheeseburger is the only thing that will appease me. Cheddar cheese, onions, pickles, bbq sauce. This only happens about once or twice a month, thank goodness! :-) And I'm very thankful that a 24 hour Steak and Shake has opened down from my apartment....once the craving hit me at midnight and I thought I was going to go nuts. My mother craved cheese and peanut butter sandwiches when she was preggers with me. And cheese is one of my all-time favorite foods. Connection? Who really knows. My mother wanted nothing but watermelon when she was pregnant with my brother and he HATES all melon types and always has. So I guess....savory would be my bigger crave. But get out of my way when it comes to my ice cream fit. :-) Rachel Bray The Ohio State University Fees, Deposits and Disbursements LORD OF THE SNITCH Three men form the chaser-squad under the sky Seven are the teammates on their brooms of wood Two are Bludger balls charmed to fly One is the dork Ref all on his own On the field of Quidditch where the Quaffles lie. One Snitch flits over all, one grab will win it One game may take three months, or may take but a minute On the field of Quidditch where the Quaffles lie. http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From tabouli at unite.com.au Wed Jun 5 17:04:47 2002 From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 03:04:47 +1000 Subject: Goals of the gifted Message-ID: <009301c20cb3$1b7f44c0$2325ddcb@price> Sigh. Resisting this gifted children thread and trying to distract myself with broad beans is clearly useless. Cindy: > I find myself wondering whether a child who sets a goal "beneath" the expectations of parents, teachers and psychologists will receive tremendous pressure to set a higher goal. Perhaps the 8-year-old who does high-school level math is free to declare that he "just" he wishes to teach pre- school, but I have trouble imagining that this goal wouldn't be questioned early and often. < Ooo, big "ex number one" alarm bells. He was picked out of a working class primary school by a well-meaning teacher as "exceptional", IQ tested, gaped at, delivered via scholarship to a posh academic private school, effortless success in every field until the mid-teen crisis. By his mid-twenties, he was thoroughly miserable, talked about suicide, would alternate between believing himself to be above all other mortals in supreme isolation and cringing insecurity about his "failure" and inability to choose a direction in life, not feeling at home in either the middle or the working class. I tried asking what inspired him and he said he loved to make things. Building bicycles. I said so why don't you? and he went all evasive and gloomy. It was pretty apparent that this wasn't an option, because you see, he was born for Something Better... just look at that sky-high IQ of his! And I'd visit him and he'd be sitting there tinkering with his bicycle and calculating the physics of the gear ratios at various spoke tensions (or something along those lines - strange pieces of paper covered in impossibly complex mathematical calculations, pen in one hand, spanner in the other). > I have to wonder, however, whether we're necessarily doing gifted children a favor by saddling them with these expectations and obligations.< Exactly. Ali: > I don't actually know whether Britain does now have special programmes for "Gifted" kids, but certainly in the 70's and 80's nothing was apparent.< There was, I believe, a British Society for Gifted Children at that time, though I've no idea what its function was. Anyone know about this? Tabouli. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From drumforever at earthlink.net Wed Jun 5 17:11:46 2002 From: drumforever at earthlink.net (Betty Landers) Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 13:11:46 -0400 Subject: Looking for fanfic Message-ID: <3CFE4651.865CC779@earthlink.net> I'm very picky about fanfics. Here's what I'm looking for at the moment... Deals heavily with aurors (may or may not be Moody or the Longbottoms), heavy on action/adventure/mystery/angst, and humor is fine. I want little to no fluff (romance Etc. as I don't ship), and I want a well-written fic. whatever fluff that there is must not be slash, and if possible, I'd like to avoid Draco Malfoy. I'm also looking for good 5th-year fics, as much along the above lines as possible. P.S. I'd prefer completed stories. Well, have I stumped you? -- Ron reached inside his jacket and pulled out a fat gray rat, which was asleep. "His name's Scabbers and he's useless, he hardly ever wakes up ...." Ron Weasley: Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's stone, Chapter six. From witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 5 19:08:18 2002 From: witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com (Wanda the Witch) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 12:08:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Interesting headline appeared on my desk.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020605190818.46270.qmail@web13702.mail.yahoo.com> Rachel Bray wrote: "XM and Sirius go head to head on a Rocky Mountain road trip" the note attached said "Someone better alert the Ministry of Magic!" :-) Rachel Bray The Ohio State University Fees, Deposits and Disbursements That is so wild! I read this post and it was sorely needed! William and I both laughed over it! Find that mysterious person and thank them for the chuckle! Will send my husband a copy! He likes Sirius! Schnoogles, Wanda the Witch of Revere,Massachusetts and Her Very Merry Band of Muggles 100% "When you come to the edge of all the light you know, and are about to step off into the darkness of the unknown, faith is knowing one of two things will happen; There will be something solid to stand on, or you will be taught how to fly."......Unknown. --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Sign-up for Video Highlights of 2002 FIFA World Cup [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cindysphynx at comcast.net Wed Jun 5 19:21:59 2002 From: cindysphynx at comcast.net (cindysphynx) Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 19:21:59 -0000 Subject: Craven cravin' and the Bugle of the Broad Bean In-Reply-To: <002701c20ca2$f2ef4ec0$2325ddcb@price> Message-ID: Tabouli wrote: > > Tell me, all you mothers out there, did you get weird food >cravings during pregnancy? A currently pregnant friend told me she >is craving strawberries, which evoked wise nods from someone I >told. Ah yes, strawberries have folate, you see. Nutrients for >child's developing nervous system. Not so many cravings while pregnant. But severe and strong food aversions. Many veggies would make me nauseated. The smell of seafood or chicken was revolting. Ah, but bloody red meat was just the ticket! My cravings kicked in once the child was born. I'm not a big fan of chocolate. But while nursing, I just had to have the stuff. I hid bags of chocolate candy all over the house. The craving went away when I stopped nursing. Very strange! In the middle of the third pregnancy, however, I figured out something about morning sickness (for me, it was always 10:00 p.m. sickness, like clockwork). It seemed to be caused by those horse- sized prenatal vitamins. When I cut back on those, the nausea disappeared. So, moms to be. Consider cutting back on your prenatal vitamins if nausea is a problem. This just might free you up to eat natural healthy foods instead. Cindy (who is not a doctor and does not play one on TV) From witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 5 19:30:44 2002 From: witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com (Wanda the Witch) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 12:30:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Happy Birthday, Angela! In-Reply-To: <20020605113623.98441.qmail@web14604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20020605193044.10556.qmail@web13705.mail.yahoo.com> Sheryll Townsend wrote: *checks to make sure decorations are still up, flings confetti around for good measure, and places yet another cake on the side table* Today's birthday honouree is Angela Burgess. HAPPY BIRTHDAY ANGELA! HOPE ALL IS FUN FUN FUN TODAY! All of us Malletts wish for you a fun filled magical day and bloww out those candels and get your wish too! Schnoogles, Wanda the Witch of Revere,Massachusetts and Her Very Merry BAnd of Muggles 100% "When you come to the edge of all the light you know, and are about to step off into the darkness of the unknown, faith is knowing one of two things will happen; There will be something solid to stand on, or you will be taught how to fly."......Unknown. --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Sign-up for Video Highlights of 2002 FIFA World Cup [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From macloudt at hotmail.com Wed Jun 5 19:38:41 2002 From: macloudt at hotmail.com (Mary Jennings) Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 19:38:41 +0000 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Underachievement rates among those gifted children Message-ID: Naama said: >Certainly for research purposes, I would think that underachievement >can >only be defined in relation to a specific, isolable sphere of >activity >(e.g., academy, athletics, etc.). But yet again, the actual *label* of underachievement is being metted out by people other than the labelled person him/herself. What right does anyone have to do such a thing to another person? Many people, like myself, have "just" a Bachelor's degree and never continued in a graduate program despite being capable of doing so because we *chose* not to do it. Are we all underachievers? I don't think of myself as one. IMHO the same applies to gifted children who, for whatever reason, choose not to follow the path *laid down by others*. Not every child gifted in math and science wants to be the next Stephen Hawking. If they don't want to be, leave them alone. If a child is left to make his own choices about his own future, then he has only his own expectations to live up to (granted, some set unrealistic self-expectations, but that's another matter). If other people set the path for him, telling him he *must* do this and study that, otherwise he will not live up to expectation, the fall from grace if drop-out or failure does occur is far worse and will do much worse damage. And let's face it, how many people have changed their study plans at least once? :::::waves hand wildly in the air::::: The same goes for athletics. A gift for swimming could result in the child losing nearly all spare time due to intensive training. A social life would be non-existent. I've read of parents of gifted athletic kids who've pulled the kids out of school so they can concentrate on their training. What if the child doesn't want any of this? What if he just wants to swim at the local pool with his friends in his spare time and otherwise lead an ordinary life? Is that child an underachiever, or blessed with a self-realization that many adults would envy? Going back to Cindy's post...having spent quite a lot of time in pre-schools, I'm willing to bet there are many gifted adults who wouldn't last half an hour in one ;) They are not places for the faint-hearted. Sorry if I'm sounding harsh, but I feel very strongly that kids should have a say in their future, and be assured that, in the end, what they do with their lives is ultimately their own choice. If they make mistakes, they will be their own mistakes. If they succeed to their own expectations, wonderful. And, whatever choices the kids make, we respect those choices and reserve harsh judgement. I'll get off my soapbox now. I've underachieved with the housework today, so I'd best get on with it ;) Mary Ann _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 5 19:50:34 2002 From: witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com (Wanda the Witch) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 12:50:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT-William update! Message-ID: <20020605195034.96774.qmail@web13704.mail.yahoo.com> Here is a William update everybody! Yesterday we went to see Dr. Levine. William is doing better and better! He goes back next month for an echo and if all looks great, he won't have to go back for 6 months! I would have posted sooner, but William has been keeping me busy with movies and games! Not to forget, READING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! will post more tomorrow, but had to let you know the Doctor's visit went really great! Love and Hugs, Wanda the Witch of Revere,Massachusetts and Her Very Merry Band of Muggles100% "When you come to the edge of all the light you know, and are about to step off into the darkness of the unknown, faith is knowing one of two things will happen; There will be something solid to stand on, or you will be taught how to fly."......Unknown. --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Sign-up for Video Highlights of 2002 FIFA World Cup [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Ali at zymurgy.org Wed Jun 5 20:07:44 2002 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (alhewison) Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 20:07:44 -0000 Subject: Craven cravin' and the Bugle of the Broad Bean In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "cindysphynx" wrote: > Tabouli wrote: > > > > > Tell me, all you mothers out there, did you get weird food > >cravings during pregnancy? A currently pregnant friend told me she > >is craving strawberries, which evoked wise nods from someone I > >told. Ah yes, strawberries have folate, you see. Nutrients for > >child's developing nervous system. > > Not so many cravings while pregnant. But severe and strong food > aversions. Many veggies would make me nauseated. The smell of > seafood or chicken was revolting. Ah, but bloody red meat was just > the ticket! > > So, moms to be. Consider cutting back on your prenatal vitamins if > nausea is a problem. This just might free you up to eat natural > healthy foods instead. > I was sick throughout the day and throughout both pregnancies. My doctor actually advised me not to take the vitamin pills, as they were only additional protection BUT, I couldn't stand going near healthy foods either. I'm veggie, and apart from one embarassing craving for Roast Beef and Yorkshire Pudding (which I didn't give into), I didn't go back to meat eating. But, potatoes - jacket potataes, chips (french fries), crisps (chips?), roast potatoes. In fact any potato was ok with me, particularly if it was covered with salt. Fortunately, pregnancy didn't kill off my liking for potatoes, although I don't eat them quite so often now! Ali who has been advised it would probably not be a good idea to get pregnant again, and wonders why having girls are more likely to make you sick than boys. From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Wed Jun 5 20:17:35 2002 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley) Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 20:17:35 -0000 Subject: TV doctors (was Craven cravin' and the Bugle of the Broad Bean) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "cindysphynx" wrote: > Cindy (who is not a doctor and does not play one on TV) and there was me looking at that nice Luka on ER and wondering if that was Cindy David From bray.262 at osu.edu Wed Jun 5 17:04:56 2002 From: bray.262 at osu.edu (Rachel Bray) Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 17:04:56 +0000 (EST5EDT) Subject: Strange poll category for Rowling Message-ID: <66B7848E9@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu> Biography is doing a poll for sexiest people and have several different categories. Rowling is a choice for one of the categories. But she's under "In the News". Strange when right above that category is "Writer". http://www.biography.com/bio15/index.jsp *shrug* Thought that was odd. Rachel Bray The Ohio State University Fees, Deposits and Disbursements LORD OF THE SNITCH Three men form the chaser-squad under the sky Seven are the teammates on their brooms of wood Two are Bludger balls charmed to fly One is the dork Ref all on his own On the field of Quidditch where the Quaffles lie. One Snitch flits over all, one grab will win it One game may take three months, or may take but a minute On the field of Quidditch where the Quaffles lie. http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From dradamsapple at yahoo.com Thu Jun 6 03:15:24 2002 From: dradamsapple at yahoo.com (dradamsapple) Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 03:15:24 -0000 Subject: Craven cravin' and the Bugle of the Broad Bean In-Reply-To: <002701c20ca2$f2ef4ec0$2325ddcb@price> Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "Tabouli" wrote: > > Tell me, all you mothers out there, did you get weird food cravings during pregnancy? . . . > > Now, if pregnancy cravings are the body's way of demanding a particular nutrient for the fetus, surely non-pregnant cravings shouldn't be ignored either. I've long suspected that they are the body's way of telling you what it needs. I know lots of people laugh ruefully and say well in that case my body always needs chocolate, but I think there are cravings and there are... hankerings (!). > > So, what thoughts? Let's hear the craven cravin' stories... > > Tabouli. > Ah, yes. I also thought with my first two pregnancies that "cravings" were the body's way of making sure it got what was needed to "make a baby". However, within the first year of life of my third child, I realized that the cravings were actually coming from him!! You see, every Wednesday, where I worked was *Mexican Food* day, and I could not pass that Mexican bar (you know, make your own burritos, tacos, salads, etc.) without getting AT LEAST one chip with quacamole and salsa on it. My now five year old son, (the spicy one) eats ketchup with almost anything, likes black pepper and ketchup on his scrambled eggs, LOVES ULTIMATE DORITOS, and eats bologna sandwiches for breakfast. What more can I say. Oh yes, *He* also was VERY thirsty when he was in his little womb; I probably drank more water during those nine months that I have in my entire lifetime (my husband calls me "camel woman"), and yes, he can drink me under the table now. Mother Nature is a powerful force! Anna . . . From dradamsapple at yahoo.com Thu Jun 6 03:25:30 2002 From: dradamsapple at yahoo.com (dradamsapple) Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 03:25:30 -0000 Subject: Craven cravin' and the Bugle of the Broad Bean In-Reply-To: <002701c20ca2$f2ef4ec0$2325ddcb@price> Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "Tabouli" wrote: > > So, what thoughts? Let's hear the craven cravin' stories... > > Tabouli. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Hey all, I probably should have read the rest of the posts before I posted myself but her goes part II: Not to scare away potential future moms, but I was sick everday, for all three of my preganancies. (I'll spare you the details). During the first pregnancy, I could NOT stand the smell of peanut butter or popcorn, and yes, red meat was not an easy thing to prepare either. It was kind of like cleaning the bathroom; you know it has to get done but you do not want anything to do with it!! I also suffered from chronic nasal congestion (yes, very weird) during all nine months with all three pregs, each preg getting more congested than the last, and congestion getting worse during the nine mos. I remember with my last one, I was lying in recovery and asked for some tissues, blew my nose, and was not congested again. Very, very strange!!) Anna . . . From drednort at alphalink.com.au Thu Jun 6 07:57:04 2002 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 17:57:04 +1000 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Underachievement rates among those gifted children In-Reply-To: References: <3CF8A80A.12958.7B239@localhost> Message-ID: <3CFFA270.3237.1D9E3F@localhost> On 5 Jun 2002 at 13:38, cindysphynx wrote: > On the other hand, I sense a feeling from Shaun that his views and > advocacy are based on more than anecdotal evidence (Message 10,937): Yes, they are - I deliberately look at the statistical evidence, etc - for the simple reason, I have seen through past experience that while my own anecdotal experiences generally match the norm, they don't always do so, and a couple of times are directly opposite the norm (for example - I benefitted from a strict and rigid school environment - the evidence is that for most gifted kids, that's not an ideal situation). I've had to become aware that if I advocated based on my own experiences, alone, I could easily get things wrong. Cindysphinx: > It seems to me that before we can launch into an analysis of whether > gifted children underachieve (whether based on anecdotal evidence or > solid research), we should acknowledge that we have quite a number > of obstacles in our path: Quite correct - and it's something we are constantly dealing with. All the 4 points you raised are certainly included, and it is 'immensely complex' as you said. Cindysphinx: > Apparently, there has been some research indicating that 50% of > gifted children underachieve. If I'm reading our discussion > correctly, however, the major studies and published research to date > use *objective* measures of whether the children are underachieving, > not *subjective* measures. Correct when talking about the bulk of published studies, yes. Cindysphinx: > Now, I'm no expert, and I certainly haven't read any of the studies > that Shaun and Elkins discussed. But reading between the lines > here, it sounds like there *is no* completed, published, peer- > reviewed study at all that uses a *subjective* measure to assess > whether a gifted child is an underachiever and whether 50% of gifted > children underachieve. At the moment, we just don't know one way or > the other, apparently. Not quite. There are completed, published, peer-reviewed studies in this area - just not many of them, and they are the smaller studies. The larger studies have only published limited data (which matches that of the smaller studies). However many of those larger studies have been peer-reviewed, and are available to people involved in giftedness advocacy - generally they haven't received a public release yet, because of confidentiality concerns - 'scrubbing' the data to ensure that kids cannot be identified can be quite difficult, especially when the study involves PG kids - quite often, I can work who an individual is, because I know so many of their case histories. As privacy is taken very seriously, this leads to delays. Cindysphinx: > If I've read this right (and please correct me if I'm wrong), then I > *really* start to wonder about the foundation for the statement that > half of gifted children underachieve. The reason for my concern is > that the statement seems based on external, objective measures of > achievement coupled with a rather wobbly assessment of whether the > child had an ability to achieve in the first instance. Not really, no - though I'm not in a position to prove that, at this point. Maybe in another year to 18 months, the evidence will be publically available. The thing is, at the moment, you are perfectly right to be skeptical - I'm not, though, because I have seen the data, and the methodologies used. > One problem is that the statement assumes that the mere fact that a > child has been identified as gifted or even profoundly gifted > (apparently based on IQ, primarily) means that the child *should* go > on to "achieve." That, I think, is a huge leap, and an unfounded > one. After all, as several people have pointed out, IQ tests > measure only one very narrow component of what it takes to achieve. > Indeed, Shaun indicated that a very tight definition of intelligence > is used (Message 10,875): > > >Intelligence is generally defined for psychological purposes as the > >ability to comprehend cognitive complexity - a very tight > >definition. While this isn't the same as logic or reasoning > >ability, it correlates very highly with them (estimated correlation > >is better than 0.9) - you don't often get correlations that high in > >psychological tests. It still means it's not perfect - but it's > >very close, and extremely useful. > > Therefore, it seems to do the child an injustice to rely on an IQ > test to decide that he/she is capable of "achieving" (whatever that > means) and will be labeled an underachiever if he/she does not. > This is particularly so in light of the fact that "achievement" > requires much more than just the ability to reason, and Shaun > acknowledged as much in Message 10,887): > > >I think resourcefullness is more important than IQ. So is self > >discipline and a variety of other things. Cindysphinx: > It seems inherently unfair to me to measure a child's ability to > reason, to then acknowledge that many other qualities influence > success and achievement, but to label gifted children who have not > been proven to have these other qualities as "underachievers" if > they fail to achieve. Not, if you also look at the other qualities, IMHO. If all that was done, involved testing a child, and then assuming their IQ score defined every part of their ability, that would be very unfair. And that can and does happen sometimes. But what we do - and what increasing numbers of programs, etc, do - is look at IQ as only one part of the child. Because that's all it is. One part of the child. In many ways, it's easier for us dealing with PG kids than for those dealing with the gifted in general - we have a lot fewer kids to deal with. We can look at them in more detail than schools, etc, often seem able to manage. > Ah, but that takes us to the real problem in my eyes ? the > definition of achievement. Whether you use a subjective or > objective definition, deciding whether anyone underachieved is > fraught with uncertainty ?- to the point that I cannot see the value > of even asking the question. The value in asking the question is that for many of these kids, underachievement is linked to their future happiness, and unless we ask the question, we will not see the early signs of it, and that will make it a lot harder to help them with it. Cindysphinx: > Fast forward to adulthood. If the child is just a lawyer instead of > a federal judge, has he objectively failed to achieve? How about if > he is a document clerk in a law firm? Legal secretary? Court > bailiff or court reporter? How about if he attends law school for > one year, decides he hates law after all, drops out, and happily > begins teaching in a pre-school? How about if the child winds up in > a low-status/low-paid position of any sort without ever pursuing his > childhood passion for the law? It depends on the situation. It's not as simple as what job did they wind up with. As I've said before, our primary aim is to ensure they have a relatively happy life. > I don't know for sure what the studies that use objective measures > would say to these questions, but I have a feeling that even if the > child were happy teaching pre-school, there would be a feeling > (among parents, teachers, researchers and psychologists) that the > child had "underachieved." I somehow suspect that "achievement" is > defined to some extent by status, prestige and compensation, > although I certainly hope that I am wrong about that. It depends on who you ask. There are people who define achievement by status, prestige, compensation, type of job, whether you have a big house, etc. But in our case - and this is increasingly the case, thankfully - our primary measure is based on how satisfied the person is with their final choice. If they are content with who they are - well, that's automatically a victory. If they want to teach pre-school, and that's what they are doing, great. If they want to flip burgers, and that's what they are doing, great. If they want to be a lawyer, and they are doing that, great. If they want to be nuclear physicist, and they are doing that, great. Cindysphinx: >And I don't think that is fair or right. After all, there is much, > much more to becoming a judge or even a lawyer than the ability to > do well on an IQ test, or even the ability to reason. The sad fact > may simply be that the child did not have the ability (i.e. talent) > to achieve this goal, despite being "intelligent." So what do we > hope to gain by labeling the child as an "underachiever?" What we gain is an insight into what we need to do to help them. If they are underachieving because they lack particular skills - study skills are a big area - we can help them learn them. If they are underachieving because of a lack of a talent we can't teach them, we can look at ways of helping them find a path they like where lacking that talent won't be a major impediment, etc. It also helps us to find systemic problems - system wide problems, wide group problems, etc. Take the 50% underachievement figure, and consider the implications of that (assuming it's true). That number points to a major problem *somewhere* - something is causing such a high rate of underachievement. It helps us to know there is a problem, because then we know we need to try and figure out what it is, and that's the first step to fixing it. Identifying problems can be the first step toward fixing them. That's what we gain. Cindysphinx: > Ironically, even using subjective measures, the children most likely > to be labeled underachievers might be those who set > ambitious/prestigious goals for themselves or who have adults in > their lives who set these goals for them. I find myself wondering > whether a child who sets a goal "beneath" the expectations of > parents, teachers and psychologists will receive tremendous pressure > to set a higher goal. Perhaps the 8-year-old who does high-school > level math is free to declare that he "just" he wishes to teach pre- > school, but I have trouble imagining that this goal wouldn't be > questioned early and often. It depends on where they are. Most experts in giftedness would not question such a goal. But unfortunately, most parents, and and most teachers, are not experts in this area. Cindysphinx: > I would imagine that it is the rare child indeed who would be > willing to downsize his/her goals or switch to a totally different > area of interest in the face of adult advice to the contrary. The > result, I would imagine, might be a child who goes with the flow, > who sticks with the areas in which he is believed to be gifted, only > to be tagged as an underachiever should he finally decide to change > his goals or pursue another path for whatever reason. Actually, these kids will resist adult advice - and do so routinely. In our program, we actually encourage them to do so - we ask that they listen to our advice, but we don't really expect them to follow it. And it's hard sometimes when you see a kid taking a path you think is wrong. But it's their choice, their life, and, frankly, they've often had enough people depriving them of choices, for us to risk that. We're not perfect - and I'm sure we've got it wrong sometimes. Cindysphinx: > After all, we don't label non-gifted children as underachievers if > they do not reach goals they set for themselves or if they don't > reach some objective measure of achievement. Actually, you'll find a great many people do label non-gifted children in this way. > > "A person who is not achieving at a particular level, who is known > > to have both the ability and the desire to achieve at that level." > > I'll use myself as an example here, just to see how I measure up. > I've always wanted to be a judge, I still want to be a judge, I have > the ability to be a judge, and I even have the academic and > professional credentials to be a judge. Nevertheless, I am not a > judge and will probably never attain this goal. There are at least > two reasons that come to mind why someone like me might not achieve > a life goal. First, sometimes people make perfectly legitimate > decisions that move them away from reaching their goal (the decision > to put one's profession on hold in favor of raising children is one > example, but there are many others). Second, there can be external > factors that impede achievement of the goal (lack of political > connections that would lead to appointment to the bench). Cindysphinx: > Under Shaun's subjective definition of "underachiever," I am a > textbook underachiever. Yet no one has ever claimed I was > underachieving by any subjective or objective measure. And why is > that? Well, there is one thing missing from my profile that > separates me from the 8-year-old boy in my hypothetical example > earlier -- I never scored as gifted or profoundly gifted on an IQ > test. It strikes me as quite misguided to suggest that changing one > thing about my life (whether I score high on an IQ test or other > tests as a youngster) would earn me the label "underachiever". Actually you're not a textbook underachiever under our definition from what you have said. First of all, we don't generally link achievement to a particular job - 'particular level' does not refer to a particular job *except* in cases where there is only one job at that level or even close to it. I guess that could happen. Secondly we don't base things on 'one thing about (a person's) life. Also, if a person has chosen to raise children, to put their profession on hold, to do so, then we wouldn't regard that as underachievement - simply that their 'desire' has changed - either permanently, or temporarily. Personally I would prefer a definition which also mentioned 'opportunity' - "A person who is not achieving at a particular level, who is known to have the ability, the desire, and the opportunity to achieve at that level," which would avoid some of the external factors - such as political connections - that can also apply. But I haven't been able to get that adopted yet. > All of this leads me to think that, despite the best intentions of > those involved with gifted children, gifted children are being > saddled with an obligation that other children do not have -? the > *obligation* to succeed/achieve. There might even be a feeling that > the gifted child owes a bit of a debt to society ? the obligation > not to "waste" their God-given talents and abilities. The gifted > child must carry all of that baggage, based on someone else's narrow > assessment of what those gifts are, what the child could be expected > to do with those gifts, and whether the child has milked sufficient > results from them. No. Definitely not. Not anymore. In fact, in many cases, experts on giftedness utterly repudiate the idea that gifted children have 'special obligations' because of their giftedness. That idea was really popular among some in the 1980s, and it did a lot of damage. > That said, I wonder whether, in the zeal to advocate the interests > of gifted children, we might be overstating the case just a bit. > After all, educational resources are limited. Gifted children must > compete for these resources with LD children and "average" > children. Perhaps raising with alarm the possibility that gifted > children will "underachieve" and thereby waste their considerable > talents -? talents that could change the world ?- is seen as a way > to secure greater resources for gifted children. Perhaps it might > even work. No, we're not overstating the case. Besides anything else, we don't need to. It has been formally acknowledged - in 1972, in the US, in 1988 in Australia - that gifted children have educational needs that must be met for their own good. We've won the acknowledgement battle. In terms of resources, we're not really in competition for those. Funding for LDs, disabilities, etc, are legally guaranteed by IDEA and other laws in the USA and similar laws elsewhere (often not to the extent they need to be - but the money goes to these kids). In most cases, this funding specifically excludes the gifted - so there's no grounds for competition there. As for competing with average children - gifted kids generally don't need extra resources. They simply need their share of the normal educational revenue to go to their needs. We don't exagerate. We can't afford to. And, at the moment, we have no reason to. The clearest statements on what these kids need have come from government inquiries drawing their own conclusions (often the opposite ones to those the governments that set them up wanted) - the Marland Report in the US, two Senate Committees here in Australia. They've gone further in their claims of what is needed, than we have (-8 Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately |webpage: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) |email: drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil | Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From macloudt at hotmail.com Thu Jun 6 08:26:57 2002 From: macloudt at hotmail.com (Mary Jennings) Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 08:26:57 +0000 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Craven cravin' Message-ID: Cindy wrote: >My cravings kicked in once the child was born. I'm not a big fan of >chocolate. But while nursing, I just had to have the stuff. I hid >bags of chocolate candy all over the house. The craving went away >when I stopped nursing. Very strange! My mother couldn't eat chocolate for the full 9 months she was nursing me because it would give me gas. I don't think she ever forgave me for that. Morning sickness...lovely stuff. I was permanently nauseous rather than sick. With my first pregnancy I could only eat canned spaghetti before noon. Is that disgusting, or what? Come the afternoon I could slowly start to eat normally, but the mornings were a washout for me. With the next two pregnancies I stuck to dry toast in the morning, just so I could say I'd had something to eat (if I didn't I'd feel very faint). Most of my pregnancy cravings were healthy. While pregnant with the first two I craved Weetabix, of all things. Now I can't even look at the stuff. With my third it was Marmite on toast, which I still enjoy. Nursing my first two was easy (I could even slip in the rare glass of wine), but with David I had to go on a really bland diet as everything gave him an upset tummy, especially anything spicy, as well as broccoli, beans, and cabbage. I was rather glad when I had to stop nursing him, and I could eat normally again. >In the middle of the third pregnancy, however, I figured out >something about morning sickness (for me, it was always 10:00 p.m. >sickness, like clockwork). It seemed to be caused by those horse- >sized prenatal vitamins. When I cut back on those, the nausea >disappeared. I once did myself in by having a breath mint in the morning. My system didn't forgive me for the rest of the day. I took my prenatal supplements in the evening, when my system had calmed down and I could keep things down. Taking those things in the morning wasn't an option for me, either. Now I just have the friggin' monthly cravings which sometimes drive me mad. My daughter loves to go grocery shopping with me during those times, because she can throw any old junk food in the shopping trolley and I don't tell her no. She's 5 so it's not a pattern she understands; she just knows that every so often Mom's a really soft touch and has no willpower. Being an intelligent child, she takes advantage of it ;) Mary Ann (low in the willpower department on a regular basis anyway) _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Jun 6 17:23:46 2002 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 17:23:46 -0000 Subject: Underachievement rates among those gifted children In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Last time I posted on this thread I proved I didn't know what I was talking about--and I appreciate Shaun pointing it out so gently. So I have been lurking since then, but I am curious about the 50% statistic. If 50% of the gifted underachieve, how is that different from saying, for example, that 50% of drivers are worse than average, which is just what you would expect? Pippin probably asking a stupid question :-) From pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no Thu Jun 6 18:18:15 2002 From: pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no (pengolodh_sc) Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 18:18:15 -0000 Subject: Underachievement rates among those gifted children In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "pippin_999" wrote: > Last time I posted on this thread I proved I didn't know what I was > talking about--and I appreciate Shaun pointing it out so gently. > > So I have been lurking since then, but I am curious about the > 50% statistic. If 50% of the gifted underachieve, how is that > different from saying, for example, that 50% of drivers are worse > than average, which is just what you would expect? The way I interpreted Shaun, he (presuming I got gender correct - sometimes it is difficult to tell with a name) meant that 50% of the gifted were prevented from achieving what they had the ability, opportunity, and desire to achieve - they feel held back. Case in point (though not directly a case of underachievement by Shaun's definition - I'll explain below): In 9th grade, I was constantly ahead of my class in math, and when I was very far ahead, the teacher dealt with it by ordering me (and one other boy similarly far ahead) to don't work anymore until the class had caught up. This happened numerous times during the year, and the one-two weeks the class needed to catch up each time, I and Frank would spend chatting quietly enough to not disturb the rest of the class. Best regards Christian Stub? From cindysphynx at comcast.net Thu Jun 6 18:30:10 2002 From: cindysphynx at comcast.net (cindysphynx) Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 18:30:10 -0000 Subject: Underachievement rates among those gifted children In-Reply-To: <3CFFA270.3237.1D9E3F@localhost> Message-ID: Just when I think this discussion can't get any more fascinating, it does! I hope no one minds if I address a few additional points that others have raised. ***************** Naama wrote: > If I understand Shaun correctly, I think that when he refers to > underachievers, it is in the context of academic achievement. So, >for him, a child (or an adult) who wishes to reach a certain level >of knowledge (or master some specific subject matter) and has the > ability to do so, is an underachiever if he doesn't do so. That could very well be a correct reading of Shaun's remarks (Shaun?). I'm not sure that limiting the question of underachievement to an evaluation of academic achievement fully addresses my concerns, though. After all, if an IQ test reveals a child be profoundly gifted but the child does not obtain certain grades/academic honors/degrees/advanced training or other measures of academic achievement, we still have the same obstacles I identified earlier in our effort to determine whether the child is "underachieving." It does seem to me to be possible to constrain the inquiry to academics so that you could come a great deal closer to extracting a meaningful judgment about whether the child is achieving. For instance, if you test a child's mathematical ability and find it to be tremendously advanced, but if the child is flunking elementary school math tests, well, yes, you have an issue there. That is because there is such a direct link between the test and the child's academic performance. But I thought that Shaun's statement (about 50% of gifted children underachieving) was addressing something more ? whether the child achieves certain goals, either the child's own subjective goals or objective goals others have set for the child. Academic goals, professional goals, and the like. That's where I start to have a problem. If the statement really is intended to be limited only to academic goals and only those academic goals closely tied to the child's demonstrated intellectual gifts and interests, then I think it would be possible to make a determination about underachievement. I just am not sure that the studies Shaun and Elkins discussed (or possibly even the smaller body of newer, unpublished, incomplete studies with which Shaun is familiar) are limited in this fashion. In any event, the 50% statistic has not been cited in this discussion only for that limited proposition, I think. Naama: >Certainly for research purposes, I would think that >underachievement can only be defined in > relation to a specific, isolable sphere of activity (e.g., >academy, athletics, etc.). Maybe so. Even in athletics, where achievement is objectively measured (with titles, rankings and the like), I would be wary of labeling people as underachievers. Let's use tennis star Anna Kournikova as an example. She has *never* won any professional tennis tournament. Not one. The fact that she keeps showing up for these tournaments suggests to me that she has a subjective goal of winning one. I doubt she would admit that she shows up so that she can lose in the first round. But she has, without question, failed to win. Failed to "achieve" titles, as it were. Has she "underachieved"? Well, who can say? We can't say because we don't *know* if she has the ability to win. There *is no* test that tells you who has the most ability in sport. Under the subjective definition of underachievement that Shaun provided, Anna Kournikova might be viewed by some as an underachiever. After all, she might arguably be a "person who is not achieving at a particular level, who is known to have both the ability and the desire to achieve at that level." I personally wouldn't say she is an underachiever under that definition, however. I would say that we just don't know. She has achieved whatever she has achieved so far, she has failed to achieve other things she has tried to achieve, and she has not even tried to achieve other things she might try to achieve, perhaps. In my eyes, that's really the end of it. If she needs to work harder or change something about her approach, fine. I fail to see how it benefits anyone to try to take it the next step and decide whether she is an "underachiever." The difference with gifted children is that some people believe there *is* a test that will tell you if the child has the *ability* to achieve ? various IQ tests. The problem for me, of course, is that I don't buy the notion that a person's IQ is a reliable indicator of ability to achieve much in life beyond the ability to score well on an IQ test. Or, at least, I haven't seen anything compelling in our discussion so far to demonstrate that it is. As a result, I do bristle at the idea that IQ tests provide a meaningful insight into *ability*, or by extension that a person who has the so- called ability to achieve something in some aspect of life but does not achieve it can benefit from being labeled an underachiever. Mary Ann wrote: >But yet again, the actual *label* of underachievement is being >meted out by people other than the labeled person him/herself. What >right does anyone have to do such a thing to another person? Yes, that is the heart of the matter, as I don't think anyone has claimed that *any* underachiever studies are premised on a self- assessment (a self-labeling, if you will) by the gifted child. I think the disconnect here is that the people using these studies to demonstrate that gifted children underachieve may not realize how hurtful it might be even to suggest such a thing. I also find myself wondering whether the statement is offered primarily for shock value. It sound dramatic to say that 50% of gifted children achieve. But what is the relevant comparison among the general population? I imagine that if you ask most people whether they have the ability and desire to accomplish more in some aspect of life (or even with respect to academic or professional success) than they are, many would say that this is true. Heck, if you asked the question on this board, I suspect a great number of hands would fly into the air. That suggests to me that perhaps, just maybe, gifted children and adults are about the same as the rest of us in this regard. If it really were true that half of gifted children are underachievers (a statement I still find precious little support for at this point in the debate), then perhaps this merely means that gifted children are perfectly normal in this respect and are no different from anyone else. Better yet, if 75% of the general population underachieves but gifted children underachieve at only 50%, then the 50% statistic wouldn't indicate an underachievement problem among the gifted at all. No matter how you slice it, though, I wonder whether the 50% rests on the belief that the gifted *ought* to be functioning closer to their maximum level of ability than the rest of us. I wrote: > > It seems inherently unfair to me to measure a child's ability to > > reason, to then acknowledge that many other qualities influence > > success and achievement, but to label gifted children who have > > not been proven to have these other qualities > > as "underachievers" if they fail to achieve. Shaun replied: > Not, if you also look at the other qualities, IMHO. > > If all that was done, involved testing a child, and then assuming their IQ score > defined every part of their ability, that would be very unfair. And that can and does > happen sometimes. > > But what we do - and what increasing numbers of programs, etc, do - > is look at IQ > as only one part of the child. Because that's all it is. One part >of the child. > > In many ways, it's easier for us dealing with PG kids than for those dealing with the > gifted in general - we have a lot fewer kids to deal with. We can look at them in > more detail than schools, etc, often seem able to manage. Maybe we are in agreement on this point. It isn't fair to look at something like IQ to decide which children are gifted and then make assumptions based on IQ about the extent to which they have the ability to achieve. A much more individualized assessment of ability would be required, if I read your remarks correctly. That makes sense. If, however, this sort of individualized assessment of ability has *not* been done in connection with (1) the older studies that use an objective definition of achievement, or (2) newer studies that use a subjective definition, then those studies don't address my concerns very well at all. In other words, they have *not* made an appropriate assessment of the child's ability to achieve the goal in question, so the conclusion presented (that half of these children underachieve) is inherently suspect. Shaun: > The value in asking the question is that for many of these kids, >underachievement is linked to their future happiness, and unless we >ask the question, we will not see the early signs of it, and that >will make it a lot harder to help them with it. Hmmm. "Underachievement is linked to their future happiness." Although this does have some intuitive appeal, I don't fully understand how we can know this. After all, it might not be the "underachievement" (i.e., failure to reach subjective goals the child could reach) that is truly bothering the child. It might be the label of "underachiever," the life-long pressure to achieve more, the implicit judgment that whatever the child has achieved is not good enough, and the emotional baggage that the label carries, that might be the real impediment to happiness. How can we know which it is? Also, I have to admit to being confused about how one looks for "early signs of" underachievement so that it can be addressed to prevent future unhappiness. What does this mean, exactly? If achievement (and therefore underachievement) is defined as *reaching* an attainable goal, then how can we know in advance whether a child is on a path to underachievement so that they can be redirected? And if I complicate matters by raising issues about whether the child is merely changing goals, down-sizing goals, delaying goals, taking longer than initially anticipated, or lacking in opportunity, then are we anywhere close to establishing that being on the lookout for "underachievers" will help adults in the child's life assess and meet their needs? I wrote: > > If the [adult] child is just a lawyer instead of > > a federal judge, has he objectively failed to achieve? How > > about if he is a document clerk in a law firm? How about > > if he attends law school for one year, decides he hates law > > after all, drops out, and happily begins teaching in a pre- > > school? Shaun responded: > It depends on the situation. It's not as simple as what job did >they wind up with. As I've said before, our primary aim is to >ensure they have a relatively happy life. On the goal of helping gifted children lead happy lives, we surely agree. I remain puzzled, however, about how the ongoing effort to identify large numbers of underachieving gifted children contributes to the goal of helping them be happy. If anything, I would think that the best way to ensure gifted children are happy would be to accept their accomplishments, support them through their challenges, and appreciate their efforts. Pointing out that they are "underachieving" seems somewhat superfluous by comparison. Shaun: >There are people who define achievement by status, > prestige, compensation, type of job, whether you have a big house, >etc. But in our case - and this is increasingly the case, >thankfully - our primary measure is based on how satisfied the >person is with their final choice. If they are content with who > they are - well, that's automatically a victory. Then why not simply ask whether the child is content/happy/satisfied with their final choice? Why stack up their achievement against their alleged ability and declare them wanting? After all, if a child subjectively believes he or she is underachieving, and if this bothers the child to the extent it interferes with happiness, then exploring the child's happiness directly ought to ferret out the problem, right? I wrote: > >So what do we hope to gain by labeling the child as > >an "underachiever?" Shaun replied: > What we gain is an insight into what we need to do to help them. >If they are underachieving because they lack particular skills - >study skills are a big area - we can help them learn them. In the limited world of academics, this idea might have some merit. If a child wishes to achieve a certain grade in a subject or mastery of a certain subject, and they are being frustrated by poor study skills, then helping them learn appropriate study skills sounds like a good idea. But again, why frame it with the term "underachievement" in this example? I would think that parents and other professionals could determine whether a child has poor study skills without reaching the question of whether child is or will be an underachiever. If it is simply a matter of augmenting the gifted child's skill set so that they wind up where they want to be, can't the inquiry be framed in exactly that way? As a parent, I frequently help my children learn skills they may wish to have later or that their program of study requires. I do not, however, point out during the process that the reason the child should learn the skill is that they either are or are at risk of "underachieving." The reason I do not frame it this way is that it is a judgment, an unhelpful one, and an insulting one at that, even if I don't mean it to be. Shaun: > It also helps us to find systemic problems - system wide >problems, wide group problems, etc. Take the 50% underachievement >figure, and consider the implications of that (assuming it's true). >That number points to a major problem *somewhere* - something is >causing such a high rate of underachievement. It helps > us to know there is a problem, because then we know we need to try >and figure out what it is, and that's the first step to fixing it. Well, if you *assume* that the 50% figure is true (and I'm sure you've gathered that I find the statistic suspect on a number of grounds) and if we further *assume* that this figure is an aberration (an assumption I find unsupported), then there could be a problem. I said as much in my last post. I think where we differ is that I'd be very reluctant to label children as underachievers and risk undermining their self-esteem unless I was awfully sure that the 50% figure was both true and unusual and therefore indicative of a problem. Shaun wrote (about a gifted math whiz who opts to be a pre-school teacher): >Most experts in giftedness would not question such a goal. I genuinely hope this is true. I suppose gifted children themselves who have chosen goals that strike adults as beneath them would welcome having advocates to help beat back that assessment. Shaun (on my own underachievement): > Actually you're not a textbook underachiever under our definition >from what you have said. First of all, we don't generally link >achievement to a particular job - 'particular level' does not refer >to a particular job *except* in cases where there is > only one job at that level or even close to it. I guess that could >happen. I guess I don't understand at all, then. Under the subjective definition of achievement you provided, what does it mean to "achieve at a particular *level*"? I would imagine that, since we're talking about the child's subjective goals, the child decides what the "level" is, i.e. job, degree, field of study, grade in a course, etc. If I get to be the gifted child in our discussion, the "level" at which I wish to practice is as the decision-maker ? the judge. So, yeah, under the subjective definition of "achievement" used in the newer, smaller, unfinished studies, I think I would fall squarely within the 50% of underachievers, if I were gifted. I think we get the same result if we move away from job-related goals and consider academic-related ones. Obtaining a certain internship. Obtaining admission to a certain program of study. Or am I missing something about the meaning of the term "level"? Shaun: >Secondly we don't base things on 'one thing about (a person's) >life. Again, I am confused. Are we trying to decide whether the child is an underachiever in their life as a whole? Or are we trying to decide whether they are an underachiever in their ability to reach a certain tangible goal that is allegedly related to their alleged ability as measured primarily by IQ tests? I thought it was the latter. Shaun: >Also, if a person has chosen to raise children, to put their >profession on hold, to do so, then we wouldn't regard that as >underachievement - simply that their 'desire' has changed - either >permanently, or temporarily. I guess that assumes that there won't be a disconnect between the desire and the person's circumstances. I can tell you that my *desire* hasn't changed, believe me. My *circumstances* have changed, not the desire. I'm simply not in a position to pursue my goal and the clock is ticking, so the realistic prospects for my achieving my goal are poor and getting worse each day. So, sadly, I think we're stuck with the idea that I am an underachiever under the subjective definition of the studies you cited. Which is a surprise. Because I don't *feel* like an underachiever at all. Shaun: > Personally I would prefer a definition which also >mentioned 'opportunity' - "A person who is not achieving at a > particular level, who is known to have the ability, the > desire, and the opportunity to achieve at that level," which would > avoid some of the external factors - such as political >connections - that can also apply. But I haven't > been able to get that adopted yet. Yeah, this is quite a mess, isn't it? After all, we all create our own "opportunity" to some extent, don't we? So we could decide that lack of opportunity is no excuse to underachieve, perhaps. Or maybe, just maybe, we could decide that the question ("What proportion of gifted children are underachievers?") is unknown and possibly unknowable and that our efforts are better spent on simply deciding how best to provide gifted children with an appropriate education and a suitable learning experience without needlessly undermining their self-esteem. Shaun (about whether advocates for gifted children might overstate the case to secure a greater share of educational resources): > No, we're not overstating the case. Besides anything else, we >don't need to. As for competing with average children - >gifted kids generally don't need extra resources. They simply > need their share of the normal educational revenue to go to their >needs. Hmmm. The skeptical side of me thinks that when it comes to funding and resources, there is no such thing as a bottomless pit, so I have trouble accepting the idea that gifted children have all of the educational resources that they need in Australia or anywhere else. In fact, your statement above that gifted children "simply need *their share* of the normal educational revenue to go to their needs" suggests to me that educational resources are in fact limited and that gifted children need advocates to ensure that they receive their share of those resources. Part of my confusion stems from the suggestion that Australian schools seem to be doing a dreadful job with educating gifted children (Shaun in Message 10,887): >Individual schools have programs in place, but these range from the >totally pathetic (the school where the gifted program involves >making ice cream) to the very good (University High's Extension >Program, MLC's Compass Centre. Most school programs are very >rudimentary and not very good. If Australian school gifted education is this bad, perhaps this is a sign that gifted children *are* in competition for educational resources, and they are losing this competition quite badly. It does seem logical to me that well-funded (including resources to hire and train appropriate educators for gifted children and so forth) programs could go a long way toward meeting the needs of gifted children in Australia and elsewhere. So we're still left with the possibility that some less-than- scrupulous advocates might ? just might ? value a statistic that 50% of gifted children underachieve because it is a useful, headline- grabbing tool to argue for a re-allocation of resources toward gifted children ? to ensure that they receive their "share". I have no problem with the goal of re-allocation, but I do question the means. Cindy From editor at texas.net Thu Jun 6 20:35:43 2002 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 15:35:43 -0500 Subject: Bone for the Lupin Lovers Message-ID: <013101c20d99$bba97ec0$8d7763d1@texas.net> For all you poor folk out there mooning over Lupin, who do not have the luxury that we Snape people do of seeing your man in every book, here's something to help tide you over. In finally going through all the paperbacks in the garage, I found one that I recommend to you: Wolf Moon by Charles de Lint. Has a wonderful romantic misunderstood werewolf, a sinister harper, a love interest, etc. And Charles de Lint! What more could you ask for? It's copyright 1988, but probably a Half-Price Books could scare it up. --Amanda, halfway through it again From kerelsen at quik.com Thu Jun 6 23:39:45 2002 From: kerelsen at quik.com (Bernadette M. Crumb) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 19:39:45 -0400 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Bone for the Lupin Lovers References: <013101c20d99$bba97ec0$8d7763d1@texas.net> Message-ID: <004c01c20db3$7247a440$6121b0d8@kerelsen> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Amanda Geist" To: Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2002 4:35 PM Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Bone for the Lupin Lovers > For all you poor folk out there mooning over Lupin, who do not have the > luxury that we Snape people do of seeing your man in every book, here's > something to help tide you over. In finally going through all the paperbacks > in the garage, I found one that I recommend to you: Wolf Moon by Charles de > Lint. Has a wonderful romantic misunderstood werewolf, a sinister harper, a > love interest, etc. And Charles de Lint! What more could you ask for? It's > copyright 1988, but probably a Half-Price Books could scare it up. > > --Amanda, halfway through it again Oh, THAT is a good one! But then again, so are every one of DeLint's fantasies. For those not in the know, Charles de Lint writes some fantastic urban-fantasies that are set in places like Ottawa and British Columbia where the other world meets our world in particularly interesting ways. He's touched on Native peoples legends, the stories of the Rom, as well as Celtic folklore to work into the lives of his characters and there's a depth of richness to his prose that I, at least, find very satisfying. Please note that these are books you may not necessarily want your younger teenager to read without your reading through first. They can be very violent and the bad guys are some of the nastiest I've ever encountered... but, in all the ones I've read so far (Moonheart is one of my faves), the good guys do come out on top, even if they are bloody, battered and bruised. Nice to see someone else likes his stuff! Bernadette/RowanRhys "Life's greatest happiness is to be convinced we are loved." - Victor Hugo, Les Miserables, 1862 From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Fri Jun 7 00:25:44 2002 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley) Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 00:25:44 -0000 Subject: Underachievement - a bit of my story In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Shaun wrote (about identifying underachievement): > > > What we gain is an insight into what we need to do to help them. > >If they are underachieving because they lack particular skills - > >study skills are a big area - we can help them learn them. > Cindy replied: > In the limited world of academics, this idea might have some merit. > If a child wishes to achieve a certain grade in a subject or mastery > of a certain subject, and they are being frustrated by poor study > skills, then helping them learn appropriate study skills sounds like > a good idea. > > But again, why frame it with the term "underachievement" in this > example? I would think that parents and other professionals could > determine whether a child has poor study skills without reaching the > question of whether child is or will be an underachiever. If it is > simply a matter of augmenting the gifted child's skill set so that > they wind up where they want to be, can't the inquiry be framed in > exactly that way? > I don't wish to enter the main debate here, but this little exchange does illustrate something about myself that I have only recently realised. When I went to Grammar school at age 11 we started to have English lessons. I always used to get poor marks in my homework. In one sense this was not for want of trying: I would sit for a long time wondering what to write. Yet my teacher reported to my parents that I participated well in lessons - lots of good ideas and insights - but he couldn't understand why I didn't reproduce it in my homework or, later, in exams. It was only much later that I realised that the answer is probably 'study skills', which I first came across when my son hit age 11 and had one lesson a week in these. I naturally think it an excellent innovation for all pupils, not only the gifted. Looking back, I don't think I was ever told what was expected of me in my homework, or how to go about it, or how to, for example, structure an essay. Although I'm a bit hazy now, I think we were just set a title or question and expected to get on with it. I righted myself enough in four years (and possibly the 4th year teacher was more personally congenial for me) to scrape through my O Levels. The English education system then ensured that I did not need to do any English at all thereafter. (US people note: my degree was maths, *no* minor, *no* distributional requirements. For A level I had to write up experiments in sciences, in maths I never wrote anything at all except symbols and short sub-sentence connecting text.) Whatever we think about the connotations of the word, or about my degree of giftedness, I now think I underachieved in that period. I think I missed out on a lot of pleasure in intelligent reading that I am only just now beginning to understand through HPFGU. Naturally I do not hold myself blameless - the depiction of Harry as somebody who would never dream of approaching a teacher if in difficulty is spot on for me - but, looking back, I think it's fair to say that the disconnect between my class behaviour and my written work was an indicator of something that could have been done better by the school - an indicator capable of being so understood at the time. And I think something that would sound like 'study skills' might well have been the answer. Now, I had no idea about any of this - I thought I was bad at the subject and did not really desire to do any better (except insofar as I did not like receiving poor marks), did not believe I could do any better either. It seems to me that what might have helped was for someone to try to find out why my written work 'underachieved' my oral promise. David From ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com Fri Jun 7 03:22:32 2002 From: ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com (Petra Pan) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 20:22:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Craven cravin' In-Reply-To: <1023388219.2774.32923.m15@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20020607032232.7361.qmail@web21105.mail.yahoo.com> Tabouli: > When I crave things, I usually crave savory food. I mean, I like > chocolate and all, but my body seems to want salt. Occasionally I > also get strange and very specific cravings. One night I was beset > by the Bugle of the Broad Bean, and ended up driving to the 24 hour > supermarket to buy some at 1am. Then there was the Call of the > Coconut a few weeks later. I dread to think what might happen if I > get pregnant. Hmm...might you crave a certain salad then? Maybe with a side of savory hummus? > Tell me, all you mothers out there, did you get weird food cravings > during pregnancy? A currently pregnant friend told me she is > craving strawberries, which evoked wise nods from someone I told. > Ah yes, strawberries have folate, you see. Nutrients for child's > developing nervous system. > > Now, if pregnancy cravings are the body's way of demanding a > particular nutrient for the fetus, surely non-pregnant cravings > shouldn't be ignored either. I've long suspected that they are the > body's way of telling you what it needs. I was just talking to a pregnant co-worker about this and one thing led to another and we wondered if this "pregnancy cravings" phenomenon exist for women during times of tremendous stress, ie. famine, drought, war etc. The discussion got to that point because she noted that she only notices these cravings when she's at "rest," after her professional and personal obligations have been fulfilled for the day; only at leisure does she "hear" her body demand licorice, the red kind, thankyouverymuch. But even beyond the issue of having enough leisure time in order to spare some to acknowledge cravings, could a need for folate be attended to when more basic needs exist? Maybe this is the question that separates cravings from hankerings. My co-worker and I never did come to any conclusions since by this point in the conversation, the microwave dinged. :) Worst pregnancy cravings I've ever heard: a friend from Taiwan desperate for "stinky," um, aromatic, tofu at 2am while living in a very tofu-less region of the United States...then there's the Los Angelean in Japan craving a chili cheese hot dog from Pink's... Petra a n :) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com From jenP_97 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 7 04:16:54 2002 From: jenP_97 at yahoo.com (jenP_97) Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 04:16:54 -0000 Subject: Craven cravin' and the Bugle of the Broad Bean In-Reply-To: <002701c20ca2$f2ef4ec0$2325ddcb@price> Message-ID: Tabouli documented her cravings, mentioned possible link of pregnancy cravings to nutritional deficiencies, and then asked "mothers" out there about their pregnancy cravings. Ah... a subject near and dear to my stomach. I've now suffered ... er ... endured ... er ... joyously awaited (ha - that sounds nice) the birth of two children (well, I'm still awaiting one), and have had just a few really noticable cravings. One is cheese. When Ginger was cooking, I was a cheese-a-holic. I swear, I must have eaten a pound of the stuff every week. Okay, maybe not that much, but you get my drift. Pizza - extra cheese. Sandwich? Grilled cheese. Enchiladas? Cheese-filled, with extra cheese sprinkled on top. Need I say more? And for the first few months of that pregnancy, I couldn't eat any meat. It was horrible. Now with the current pregnancy, I'm craving mostly fruit. Strawberries were good while they were "new" (meaning before they got all small and mushy like they are now), now I'm hankering after cherries... and I ate almost HALF a seedless watermelon the other day. I can't WAIT until the peaches, plums and nectarines come into season... and though it's not a "fruit", I'm really looking forward to the peak of corn-on- the-cob season. Again, meat doesn't taste as good... except burned/burnt hot dogs. And they have to be almost black on the outside. Unfortunately, by not eating meat (and iron-rich veggies)... and by not drinking as much milk as I should, I'm fearing that tomorrow when I go have blood drawn at the lab, they're going to find that I'm anemic. Wouldn't be a surprise, as I'm always borderline anemic anyway, but this means I have to take another iron supplement in addition to my prenatal vitamin, which makes me gag. Not nice. Now, if we're talking about really WEIRD pregnancy cravings, there's a condition called "pica". Women with pica tend to crave inedible things like laundry starch, drywall, pencil sharpenings and dirt. These cravings have definitely been linked to nutritional deficiencies, although the studies waver on whether or not it has to do with psychological problems, too. I'm not sure where I stand on the "cravings = your body telling you that you need something" question. I guess that I believe it in my heart... I mean, I'm not a big fruit eater normally, and I've been skipping a prenatal vitamin here and there because of nausea, so it would make sense that my body is telling me that I need some extra vitamin C or fiber or water. But I guess that I don't have hard evidence, so my "logical" mind (whatever that means) can't say for certain that it's *true*. In any case, my body *can't* be needing all this extra fat I've been consuming. I mean, I know that this is a big time for baby brain development and fat-store buildup, but come on. Jen, who is so pregnant right now that she can't pick up more than a bag full of trash around the house without breaking into a sweat and gasping for breath. From drednort at alphalink.com.au Fri Jun 7 05:00:05 2002 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 15:00:05 +1000 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Underachievement rates among those gifted children In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3D00CA75.11748.276FAE@localhost> On 6 Jun 2002 at 18:18, pengolodh_sc (Christian) wrote: > The way I interpreted Shaun, he (presuming I got gender correct - > sometimes it is difficult to tell with a name) meant that 50% of the > gifted were prevented from achieving what they had the ability, > opportunity, and desire to achieve - they feel held back. Case in > point (though not directly a case of underachievement by Shaun's > definition - I'll explain below): Yes, I am male, just for the record. And, yes, this is pretty much what I am referring to by underachievement - cases where something 'artificial' and external has held the child back to an unusual extent. Christian: > In 9th grade, I was constantly ahead of my class in math, and when I > was very far ahead, the teacher dealt with it by ordering me (and one > other boy similarly far ahead) to don't work anymore until the class > had caught up. This happened numerous times during the year, and the > one-two weeks the class needed to catch up each time, I and Frank > would spend chatting quietly enough to not disturb the rest of the > class. Sheesh. Yep - this isn't that unusual. At times, it has been official policy in some schools. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately |webpage: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) |email: drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil | Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From drednort at alphalink.com.au Fri Jun 7 05:00:06 2002 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 15:00:06 +1000 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Underachievement rates among those gifted children In-Reply-To: References: <3CFFA270.3237.1D9E3F@localhost> Message-ID: <3D00CA76.16636.277615@localhost> On 6 Jun 2002 at 18:30, cindysphynx wrote: > That could very well be a correct reading of Shaun's remarks > (Shaun?). Pretty close. As I've said, I personally would like opportunity included, but it isn't, and there are reason why it isn't (the number one being is that if schools could avoid having students they are teaching considered underachievers simply by denying them opportunities, some schools would do so - so including opportunity in the definition could backfire). Cindysphinx: > I'm not sure that limiting the question of underachievement to an > evaluation of academic achievement fully addresses my concerns, > though. After all, if an IQ test reveals a child be profoundly > gifted but the child does not obtain certain grades/academic > honors/degrees/advanced training or other measures of academic > achievement, we still have the same obstacles I identified earlier > in our effort to determine whether the child is "underachieving." *If* the child wants those advanced degrees, etc, then if they don't get them, having the ability, and the desire (and the opportunity) then there is generally good reason for considering there to be a problem. Cindysphinx: > It does seem to me to be possible to constrain the inquiry to > academics so that you could come a great deal closer to extracting a > meaningful judgment about whether the child is achieving. For > instance, if you test a child's mathematical ability and find it to > be tremendously advanced, but if the child is flunking elementary > school math tests, well, yes, you have an issue there. That is > because there is such a direct link between the test and the child's > academic performance. Precisely. Cindysphinx: > But I thought that Shaun's statement (about 50% of gifted children > underachieving) was addressing something more ? whether the child > achieves certain goals, either the child's own subjective goals or > objective goals others have set for the child. Academic goals, > professional goals, and the like. That's where I start to have a > problem. There may be some confusion about 'goals' here. Generally - though not always - the goals we are talking about are particular academic levels - remember I deal in education. We consider other things as well, because it isn't healthy to fixate solely on academics, and because it's possible a given child will not consider academic goals significant. Cindypshinx: > If the statement really is intended to be limited only to academic > goals and only those academic goals closely tied to the child's > demonstrated intellectual gifts and interests, then I think it would > be possible to make a determination about underachievement. I just > am not sure that the studies Shaun and Elkins discussed (or possibly > even the smaller body of newer, unpublished, incomplete studies with > which Shaun is familiar) are limited in this fashion. Generally they are - in fact, some of them are so linked to academic goals, they have been attacked as far too narrow. Cindysphinx: > Let's use tennis star Anna Kournikova as an example. She has > *never* won any professional tennis tournament. Not one. The fact > that she keeps showing up for these tournaments suggests to me that > she has a subjective goal of winning one. I doubt she would admit > that she shows up so that she can lose in the first round. But she > has, without question, failed to win. Failed to "achieve" titles, > as it were. Well, using this example, we wouldn't consider her an underachiever - because the goals we look at are generally something like (using this example) GOAL: To be able to consistently compete at the highest competitive level of tennis I can manage. not GOAL: To win tournaments. Cindysphinx: > The difference with gifted children is that some people believe > there *is* a test that will tell you if the child has the *ability* > to achieve ? various IQ tests. The problem for me, of course, is > that I don't buy the notion that a person's IQ is a reliable > indicator of ability to achieve much in life beyond the ability to > score well on an IQ test. Or, at least, I haven't seen anything > compelling in our discussion so far to demonstrate that it is. As a > result, I do bristle at the idea that IQ tests provide a meaningful > insight into *ability*, or by extension that a person who has the so- > called ability to achieve something in some aspect of life but does > not achieve it can benefit from being labeled an underachiever. I suppose the difference here may be that I have seen dozens of cases where that IQ test has been a pointer to future achievement, when it was nurtured. And dozens more where it hasn't, in the absence of appropriate education. So I have no problem with the idea that these tests do indicate something real and meaningful. But I can certainly understand why people who haven't seen it, would wonder. > Mary Ann wrote: > > >But yet again, the actual *label* of underachievement is being > >meted out by people other than the labeled person him/herself. What > >right does anyone have to do such a thing to another person? > > Yes, that is the heart of the matter, as I don't think anyone has > claimed that *any* underachiever studies are premised on a self- > assessment (a self-labeling, if you will) by the gifted child. I > think the disconnect here is that the people using these studies to > demonstrate that gifted children underachieve may not realize how > hurtful it might be even to suggest such a thing. Cindysphinx: > I also find myself wondering whether the statement is offered > primarily for shock value. It sound dramatic to say that 50% of > gifted children achieve. But what is the relevant comparison among > the general population? I imagine that if you ask most people > whether they have the ability and desire to accomplish more in some > aspect of life (or even with respect to academic or professional > success) than they are, many would say that this is true. Heck, if > you asked the question on this board, I suspect a great number of > hands would fly into the air. What's the relative comparison - generally speaking, around 10-15% of 'average' children would be considered significant academic underachievers as compared to their measured ability levels, once LDs, etc, have been eliminated. The only group you find a 50% level in, besides the gifted, are black and hispanic kids from poor socio-economic backgrounds - in some of those cases, levels of up to 90% have been found. > That suggests to me that perhaps, just maybe, gifted children and > adults are about the same as the rest of us in this regard. If it > really were true that half of gifted children are underachievers (a > statement I still find precious little support for at this point in > the debate), then perhaps this merely means that gifted children are > perfectly normal in this respect and are no different from anyone > else. Better yet, if 75% of the general population underachieves > but gifted children underachieve at only 50%, then the 50% statistic > wouldn't indicate an underachievement problem among the gifted at > all. No - but when only 10-15% of the general population underachieves using the same criteria, it does indicate a real problem. Comparative studies have been done, using a variety of different definitions - whatever definition is used shows more underachivement among the gifted than in general. > No matter how you slice it, though, I wonder whether the 50% rests > on the belief that the gifted *ought* to be functioning closer to > their maximum level of ability than the rest of us. No, it doesn't. It's based on the idea that the gifted should be functioning as close to their ability level, as people in general. Not their maximum level - just a base level. And when they get appropriate education, they do. See - if the results weren't affected by appropriate education being available, things would be very different. In that case, we'd conclude that we're simply asking too much of these kids. But when they get the appropriate education, they (generally) easily meet these standards. Cindypshinx: > Maybe we are in agreement on this point. It isn't fair to look at > something like IQ to decide which children are gifted and then make > assumptions based on IQ about the extent to which they have the > ability to achieve. A much more individualized assessment of > ability would be required, if I read your remarks correctly. That > makes sense. Definitely - IQ testing is only one part of what is needed. Cindysphinx: > If, however, this sort of individualized assessment of ability has > *not* been done in connection with (1) the older studies that use an > objective definition of achievement, or (2) newer studies that use a > subjective definition, then those studies don't address my concerns > very well at all. In other words, they have *not* made an > appropriate assessment of the child's ability to achieve the goal in > question, so the conclusion presented (that half of these children > underachieve) is inherently suspect. Many of the older studies were based primarily, in some cases, almost totally, on IQ testing, without any other assessment. The newer ones are based on broader assessments - that's one reason they have taken a lot longer to produce. But let me give you an example - our pilot cohort in our program (I had to get permission to give any details). We have a total of 40 kids in the pilot cohort. When they entered the program between ages 8 and 11, 5 years ago, 33 of the 40 were identified as underachievers (we took those with the greatest needs first so we were well over the 50% figure). After 5 years in our program, only 8 are considered to be underachievers in any way. We haven't been able to give them appropriate education - our program is a matter of appropriate support, their schooling is still in the hands of schools (some are homeschooled, 4 are now at University). And none of the 8 are doing that badly - at least 3 will probably be removed from the underachieving category within the next year. 11 of the original 33 (and 2 of the other 7) have basically chosen not to consider academic learning that important - but even each of those is performing at least at their age-grade level. We've gone from a rate of 82.5% to 20%. Our kids are happy, and they are doing very well academically, and are well on track to reaching their goals. We know their rate of underachievement wasn't natural, or expected - because it's been very easy to correct it, simply by giving them access to real opportunities to extend themselves if they want them. Cindysphinx: > Hmmm. "Underachievement is linked to their future happiness." > Although this does have some intuitive appeal, I don't fully > understand how we can know this. After all, it might not be > the "underachievement" (i.e., failure to reach subjective goals the > child could reach) that is truly bothering the child. It might be > the label of "underachiever," the life-long pressure to achieve > more, the implicit judgment that whatever the child has achieved is > not good enough, and the emotional baggage that the label carries, > that might be the real impediment to happiness. How can we know > which it is? We often can't know for certain in individual cases. We can know, in general, simply because many of these kids have grown up and are available to be interviewed, assessed, etc. We know that underachievement is very closely linked to unhappiness in the minds of large numbers of gifted adults, because they can tell us. In an individual case, we can get in wrong (I hope - and I think - that doesn't happen often) - but we know the trends very well. Cindysphinx: > I remain puzzled, however, about how the ongoing effort to identify > large numbers of underachieving gifted children contributes to the > goal of helping them be happy. If anything, I would think that the > best way to ensure gifted children are happy would be to accept > their accomplishments, support them through their challenges, and > appreciate their efforts. Pointing out that they > are "underachieving" seems somewhat superfluous by comparison. We don't point it out. Generally they do. They know they are underachieving and they tell *us* if it's worrying them. We certainly never tell a child they are underachieving - we will ask them if they are happy, and we wait for them to come to us in the vast majority of cases. We will move in and tell them only if we think they are facing significant problems if we don't. We can't completely butt out, given that we can be facing very significant issues, including the potential for suicide at times. But we generally would not point out they were underachieving - can't say we'd never do it, because we're dealing with individuals and there are cases where it might be appropriate. Cindysphinx: > Then why not simply ask whether the child is content/happy/satisfied > with their final choice? Why stack up their achievement against > their alleged ability and declare them wanting? After all, if a > child subjectively believes he or she is underachieving, and if this > bothers the child to the extent it interferes with happiness, then > exploring the child's happiness directly ought to ferret out the > problem, right? Yes - and that's really what we do. We do test beforehand, for a variety of reasons - but for the most part, the tests are locked away and aren't used until and unless they are needed. We test for a few reasons. The first is because as well as trying to help these kids, we are also developing methods to help other kids in the future - and test data can help us with that. The kids know we do this, and support it - so far unanimously. Secondly, there are some Learning Disabilities, etc, that are *very* non-obvious among the gifted, and some IQ tests - in particular the WISC-III can allow these to be identified. Myself, I have an auditory processing problem. It was totally missed until I was 12, because I was more than able to compensate using other skills - primary schools tend to be primarily a visual learning environment, secondary schools are more auditory as you move along. Because that auditory processing problem was identified when it was, they were able to teach me techniques to deal with it, so it never became a serious issue. That identification came because I was given the WISC-R (previous version of the WISC-III). A lot of LDs are masked by giftedness (and giftedness can also be masked by LDs) and these tests can get past the masking. Thirdly, at present, in order to accurately gauge the IQ of a gifted child, you must test fairly early. This is because the tests in current use - the SB-IV and the WISC-III both have rather low 'ceilings' and rather high 'floors'. They don't accurately measure IQs outside the 70-130 range. A child who scores 140 on the WISC certainly has an IQ of 140 - but they may have one of 180. The WISC cannot tell. The only test that can is the SB-LM - and even it starts to have problems with really high scores from the time a child is 8. Ideally, with a gifted child, you want to test between age 6 and 8. If you already have a kids whose 12, you want to test NOW - because the older they get, the lower the test ceiling. Even if you don't think you need the data now, we have to be aware that a test done today may contain information that won't be possible in another year, simply because they will have moved past that on the test. This is a problem that probably won't exist after mid-next year - because a new test that is being validated at the moment, the SB-V isn't meant to have the ceiling problems. But for the moment, the best policy is to test now to avoid ceiling effects as much as possible - and then store the test. After testing, the psychs look at the test results for any LD indications, and write a brief analysis for the files. Then, generally, the test is locked away in case it's needed. Cindysphinx: > But again, why frame it with the term "underachievement" in this > example? I would think that parents and other professionals could > determine whether a child has poor study skills without reaching the > question of whether child is or will be an underachiever. If it is > simply a matter of augmenting the gifted child's skill set so that > they wind up where they want to be, can't the inquiry be framed in > exactly that way? Actually parents, and other professionals often *can't* determine whether a child has poor study skills until the problem gets quite severe - especially if the child is gifted. The gifted child is likely to do very well at school even with poor study skills up until a certain point when they 'crash and burn'. For me, it hit in Year 9. Until that point, I had never got less than 90% on any test - generally I got 95% or more. I had no study skills - but I didn't need them. A single reading of a text was all I needed. Suddenly in Year 9, that wasn't enough - more than just skimming the book was needed. My marks plummetted. I had to learn how to study very quickly simply to keep up. Now, at this point, yes, the problem was noticed. And it was dealt with. But it had to be dealt with in a matter of weeks. I had to do crash courses on how to study, etc. It was miserable. It would have been much easier for me if the problem had been identified earlier - say in Year 7, at which point, I could have learned and developed the skills I needed in a much less savage fashion. The idea is to catch the problems early so you can deal with them before they turn into major problems. Now, you may not like the term underachiever. The thing is, it's just a word. Like Intelligence, like Gifted. We could use different terms but we tend to use the ones that have been used before, simply to remain consistent - if we change terms too often, we wind up with a lot of confusion. 'Exceptional child' is one term - it used to mean roughly the same as 'gifted' does, but over the years it's changed meaning until it often refers to children with disabilities - and sometimes it refers to both the gifted and those with disabilities. Any child who's not average, in other words. The meaning of the word has become confused. We need terms to use to communicate between ourselves, when making notes for other people, etc. If we could be sure, only we were only to deal with these kids, such labels would be fairly pointless. But we can't. I could walk under a bus this afternoon - and someone else would have to help my kids. Cindysphinx: > As a parent, I frequently help my children learn skills they may > wish to have later or that their program of study requires. I do > not, however, point out during the process that the reason the child > should learn the skill is that they either are or are at risk > of "underachieving." The reason I do not frame it this way is that > it is a judgment, an unhelpful one, and an insulting one at that, > even if I don't mean it to be. The thing is, there is a difference for a parent. Parents, hopefully, know their child intimately, and are generally dealing with only a few kids. They also, generally, have no plans on handing over dealing with their child's needs to somebody else. It's a very different situation. It is a judgement - we sometimes need to make judgements/diagnoses/whatever you want to call them - in order to help these kids. Unhelpful, insulting? It's not meant to be - anymore than saying a child is hearing impaired, or dyslexic, or anything else. It's a term of communication so others know what the child needs help with. Cindysphinx: > Well, if you *assume* that the 50% figure is true (and I'm sure > you've gathered that I find the statistic suspect on a number of > grounds) and if we further *assume* that this figure is an > aberration (an assumption I find unsupported), then there could be a > problem. I said as much in my last post. I think where we differ > is that I'd be very reluctant to label children as underachievers > and risk undermining their self-esteem unless I was awfully sure > that the 50% figure was both true and unusual and therefore > indicative of a problem. Undermining self-esteem? We don't. Because we do not use this label anywhere around the kids, and we've also made it very clear over time, why we use any label at all, to them. Cindysphinx: > I guess I don't understand at all, then. Under the subjective > definition of achievement you provided, what does it mean > to "achieve at a particular *level*"? I would imagine that, since > we're talking about the child's subjective goals, the child decides > what the "level" is, i.e. job, degree, field of study, grade in a > course, etc. If I get to be the gifted child in our discussion, > the "level" at which I wish to practice is as the decision-maker ? > the judge. So, yeah, under the subjective definition > of "achievement" used in the newer, smaller, unfinished studies, I > think I would fall squarely within the 50% of underachievers, if I > were gifted. Level can mean a lot of things depending on what we are dealing with. First of all, provided you are happy, we wouldn't even look at the term. I'm not exactly sure how level would be defined for someone looking at the legal profession - but, for science, for example, we'd be talking about working in any science or related field in just about any connected capacity, provided the person was happy with their job. Cindysphinx: >I think we get the same result if we move away from job-related > goals and consider academic-related ones. Obtaining a certain > internship. Obtaining admission to a certain program of study. Or > am I missing something about the meaning of the term "level"? No, you're not - and that's actually a far more common way of using the term. We only have job related goals at all, in our considerations, because we don't want students feeling that study is the be all and end all of life. We want them to know they can move outside study to work, etc. We don't expect them to spend their lives in academia researching - that's fine as a path, if you choose it. But so is striving for a particular line of work. We're doomed if we do, and doomed if we don't. If we don't consider work, we're accused of setting our kids up for an ivory tower existance where their whole lives are based on academic performance. If we consider jobs, we're accused of forcing them into particuar fields of work they may not like. We try to achieve a balance between all these areas. And that's why work, jobs, etc, are including in goal setting. Cndysphinx: > Again, I am confused. Are we trying to decide whether the child is > an underachiever in their life as a whole? Or are we trying to > decide whether they are an underachiever in their ability to reach a > certain tangible goal that is allegedly related to their alleged > ability as measured primarily by IQ tests? I thought it was the > latter. That's more or less correct, yes. Cindysphinx: > I guess that assumes that there won't be a disconnect between the > desire and the person's circumstances. I can tell you that my > *desire* hasn't changed, believe me. My *circumstances* have > changed, not the desire. I'm simply not in a position to pursue my > goal and the clock is ticking, so the realistic prospects for my > achieving my goal are poor and getting worse each day. So, sadly, I > think we're stuck with the idea that I am an underachiever under the > subjective definition of the studies you cited. Which is a > surprise. Because I don't *feel* like an underachiever at all. Then you are not. If you don't think there's an underachievement problem, then by definition, there isn't. Cindysphinx: > Yeah, this is quite a mess, isn't it? After all, we all create our > own "opportunity" to some extent, don't we? So we could decide that > lack of opportunity is no excuse to underachieve, perhaps. Yes, we do to some extent. But the reason opportunity isn't included in our definitions currently is because of a perception that it might be used as an excuse not to offer opportunities. Cindysphinx: > Or maybe, just maybe, we could decide that the question ("What > proportion of gifted children are underachievers?") is unknown and > possibly unknowable and that our efforts are better spent on simply > deciding how best to provide gifted children with an appropriate > education and a suitable learning experience without needlessly > undermining their self-esteem. We don't undermine their self esteem. I don't know where you have got that idea from, but it's simply not true. We spend our time building self esteem in kids who have sometimes had it ripped from them by the system they are stuck in. > Shaun (about whether advocates for gifted children might overstate > the case to secure a greater share of educational resources): > > > No, we're not overstating the case. Besides anything else, we > >don't need to. As for competing with average children - > >gifted kids generally don't need extra resources. They simply > > need their share of the normal educational revenue to go to their > >needs. Cindysphinx: > Hmmm. The skeptical side of me thinks that when it comes to funding > and resources, there is no such thing as a bottomless pit, so I have > trouble accepting the idea that gifted children have all of the > educational resources that they need in Australia or anywhere else. > In fact, your statement above that gifted children "simply need > *their share* of the normal educational revenue to go to their > needs" suggests to me that educational resources are in fact limited > and that gifted children need advocates to ensure that they receive > their share of those resources. No - they need advocates to ensure their share is spent on what they need. A gifted child in a classroom receives the same share of money and resources as every other child in that class. If a class of 25 receives $100,000 to run it, the gifted children in that class will be receiving around $4,000 - there will be slight variations but generally. Funding is typically allocated on a per child basis. The thing is - is that $4,000 being spent on what the child actually needs. If a child can do trigonometry, and the class spends its days learning the multiplication tables, every cent being spent teaching that child how what 6x6 is *wasted* money. It's still being spent - the school doesn't give it back. It's not achieving it's purpose. Gifted children do not miss out on an appropriate education because of a lack of money. The money is there, it's being spent. They miss out because it's being spent on stuff they don't need, rather than things they do need. It's not that there is a bottomless pit - but the money is there. It just needs to be spent appropriately. In my state, education funding per child actually dropped slightly for 4 years from 1994-1997. At the same time, education standards went *up*. The number of special programs available to children with special needs increased. They didn't cost anymore than the regular classes - they just met the needs of the kids better. Cindysphinx: > If Australian school gifted education is this bad, perhaps this is a > sign that gifted children *are* in competition for educational > resources, and they are losing this competition quite badly. It > does seem logical to me that well-funded (including resources to > hire and train appropriate educators for gifted children and so > forth) programs could go a long way toward meeting the needs of > gifted children in Australia and elsewhere. They could - but they are not needed. Most of the rudimentary programs I mentioned cost a lot more than the good programs. The most successful program for gifted children in schools in my state - for the last 22 years - is one at University High School. It costs $12.50 per child per year over and above standard funding (or about $500 a year in admin fees, total). It works by educating these kids in their classes to their level of ability as indicated by testing, instead of doing so to a level indicated by date of birth. It's a full time program. Cindysphinx: > So we're still left with the possibility that some less-than- > scrupulous advocates might ? just might ? value a statistic that 50% > of gifted children underachieve because it is a useful, headline- > grabbing tool to argue for a re-allocation of resources toward > gifted children ? to ensure that they receive their "share". I have > no problem with the goal of re-allocation, but I do question the > means. If we had any reasonable hope of getting more money, this might be a risk. But we don't. And we know that through many years of experience. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately |webpage: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) |email: drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil | Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From drednort at alphalink.com.au Fri Jun 7 05:00:03 2002 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 15:00:03 +1000 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Underachievement rates among those gifted children In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3D00CA73.4922.276ACD@localhost> On 6 Jun 2002 at 17:23, pippin_999 wrote: > Last time I posted on this thread I proved I didn't know what I was > talking about--and I appreciate Shaun pointing it out so gently. > > So I have been lurking since then, but I am curious about the > 50% statistic. If 50% of the gifted underachieve, how is that > different from saying, for example, that 50% of drivers are worse > than average, which is just what you would expect? Fair quesion - because I haven't made that clear at all. We don't base our ideas of 'underachievement' on averages - if we did, then we would expect to find 50% below the average and 50% above the average, naturally enough. What we look at is achievement based on level of ability, and underachievement *may* be considered (it isn't automatically) in cases where the level of achievement is significantly below what is indicated by ability - not just below, but significantly below. If we're dealing with a 9 year old, say, who we know could be achieving at 9th grade level in mathematics, we wouldn't even be thinking about underachievement *unless* they were below 6th grade standard. Before we even consider the possibility, there has to be a significant discrepancy. If they were below 6th grade standard, then we'd start looking for why - and underachievement might then be identified. *Might* be - not would be. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately |webpage: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) |email: drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil | Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk Fri Jun 7 12:32:15 2002 From: kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk (Kathryn) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 13:32:15 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time) Subject: Football Message-ID: <3D00A7CF.000003.07489@monica> Spoiler space for anyone insane enough to think they can avouid the result of the footie until the replay tomight Can I just be the first to say - Gooooooooooooooooooooooaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaalllllllllllllllllllllllllllll !!!!!!!!! Yessssss! Go england! Go Beckham! I'm so happy! And all my friends just got their results from the uni and have got good degrees too. Such a good day. K From drumforever at earthlink.net Fri Jun 7 14:24:45 2002 From: drumforever at earthlink.net (Betty Landers) Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 10:24:45 -0400 Subject: Symantec Security Response - W32.Klez.H@mm Message-ID: <3D00C22C.8263227B@earthlink.net> Hello All. I've just discovered that I'm infected with the klez worm (w32.klez.h at mm). If I understand it right, one of the many things it does is pick a random address in the address book and start send messages. I've included symantec's information about the virus in this message so you can take any measures or precautions necessary. http://securityresponse.symantec.com/avcenter/venc/data/w32.klez.h at mm.html -- Ron reached inside his jacket and pulled out a fat gray rat, which was asleep. "His name's Scabbers and he's useless, he hardly ever wakes up ...." Ron Weasley: Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's stone, Chapter six. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From boggles at earthlink.net Sat Jun 8 01:21:21 2002 From: boggles at earthlink.net (Jennifer Boggess Ramon) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 20:21:21 -0500 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Book Harry vs. Movie Harry In-Reply-To: <010401c208f6$82d26a00$0f21b0d8@kerelsen> References: <010401c208f6$82d26a00$0f21b0d8@kerelsen> Message-ID: I'm so behind! I'm terribly sorry. The last two weeks of school completely ate my brain, and then I had to take a week to recover. At 6:57 PM -0400 5/31/02, Bernadette M. Crumb wrote: >----- Original Message ----- >From: "sarahlinks14" > >>I was wondering what other readers of HP >> have experienced. Have you kept your own versions of the >characters > > or do you picture the movie characters? > >Count me in as one of those who still have the original images in >her head. If I think about it, I can see Dan Radcliffe, Rupert >Grint and Emma Watson as the characters, but when I'm just >straight reading, it's my interior versions of them that comes to >mind. I do a little bit of both. My Harry is still my original Harry, although I like Radcliffe's portrayal as well. I didn't ever have a strong internal image of Ron, so I now see him as Grint, only a little taller (it bothered me a bit in the movie that Ron was shorter than Harry). My internal image of Hermione originally looked, er, well, a lot like me circa 5th grade; now it's about half that and half Watson. I had only read SS when I saw the movie, BTW, and that mostly because Dr. Beers had it on the recommended reading list for my Secondary Language Arts Methods class. Seeing the movie was the impetus to get me to read the other three books, which I did in the following three days. >I will admit that Alan Rickman does look a LOT like the Snape in >my head except the one in my head has a narrower face and frame >and a slightly more aquiline nose. Otherwise, pretty much spot >on! Ditto, only mine is a bit younger. Having just seen the extended "first day of Potions" sequence from the DVD, that was near to perfect! (Shame that the rest of the extra features aren't quite up to snuff.) Tom Felton is also very close to my internal Draco, so much so that he's it now. -- - Boggles, aka J. C. B. Ramon boggles at earthlink.net === Personal Growth Geek Code v0.4 === GG++ !T A-- M++s--- g+ B- C- P++++ a- b- h+ her++ E+ N n++ i f+ c++ S%++++&&># D R++ xc++ xm+ xi+ yd++ ys++(-) rt+ ro+ rp++++ rjk<+ ow+++ ofn+ oft++ op++ esk-- ey+ ek+++ pl++ pf++ pe++ U! From boggles at earthlink.net Sat Jun 8 01:47:44 2002 From: boggles at earthlink.net (Jennifer Boggess Ramon) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 20:47:44 -0500 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Help wanted! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 2:18 AM +0000 6/2/02, triner2001 wrote: > >Earlier today, in what can only be described in a Moment of Insanity, >I bought a coconut. I read the directions "to prepare coconut" and >followed through. Or rather, I *attempted* to follow through. I >knocked a hole in the eye and drained the milk with no problem. It >was with the step "Tap shell sharply on groove with hammer, revealing >white flesh within" that I had problems. I tapped sharply. Nothing. >I banged the hell out of it. Nothing happened, outside of a lot of >noise and frightening the cats. The way our primate ancestors opened the darned things was to fling them at hard surfaces. This is, in fact, the easiest way to do it IME. I lay out a couple sheets of newspaper over the sidewalk, tap the coconut with a hammer all over to loosen the meat from the shell, then fling it from the top of the front steps straight down onto the newspaper. Really stubborn cases only crack on the first fling and have to be hurled again to break all the way open, but this is rare. -- - Boggles, aka J. C. B. Ramon boggles at earthlink.net === Personal Growth Geek Code v0.4 === GG++ !T A-- M++s--- g+ B- C- P++++ a- b- h+ her++ E+ N n++ i f+ c++ S%++++&&># D R++ xc++ xm+ xi+ yd++ ys++(-) rt+ ro+ rp++++ rjk<+ ow+++ ofn+ oft++ op++ esk-- ey+ ek+++ pl++ pf++ pe++ U! From editor at texas.net Sat Jun 8 02:16:20 2002 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 21:16:20 -0500 Subject: Fw: Zen error messages Message-ID: <007701c20e92$7d623f40$517763d1@texas.net> I don't usually forward things like this along, but these are worthwhile, entertaining, artful, and true. I am not certain I believe they're real, but they *should* be. Enjoy. Depending on who you are, --Amanda (or) --Mandy (or --Amandageist (or) --Amandar, She Who Must Be Obeyed ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, June 07, 2002 9:03 AM Subject: Zen error messages > In Japan, they have replaced the impersonal and unhelpful Microsoft error > messages with Haiku poetry messages. Haiku poetry has strict construction > rules - each poem has only 17 syllables; 5 syllables in the first, 7 in the > second, 5 in the third. They are used to communicate a timeless message > often achieving a wistful, yearning and powerful insight through extreme > brevity. Here are 16 actual error messages from Japan. > > Below, the essence of Zen: > > Your file was so big. > It might be very useful. > But now it is gone. > ------------------------------------------- > > The Web site you seek > Cannot be located, but > Countless more exist. > -------------------------------------------- > > Chaos reigns within. > Reflect, repent, and reboot. > Order shall return. > ----------------------------------------------- > > Program aborting: > Close all that you have worked on. > You ask far too much. > ------------------------------------------------ > > Windows NT crashed. > I am the Blue Screen of Death. > No one hears your screams. > -------------------------------------------------- > > Yesterday it worked. > Today it is not working. > Windows is like that. > --------------------------------------------------- > > First snow, then silence. > This thousand-dollar screen dies > So beautifully. > --------------------------------------------------- > > With searching comes loss > And the presence of absence: > "My Novel" not found. > -------------------------------------------------- > > The Tao that is seen > Is not the true Tao- until > You bring fresh toner. > -------------------------------------------------- > > Stay the patient course. > Of little worth is your ire. > The network is down. > --------------------------------------------------- > > A crash reduces > Your expensive computer > To a simple stone. > -------------------------------------------------- > > Three things are certain: > Death, taxes and lost data. > Guess which has occurred. > --------------------------------------------------- > > You step in the stream, > But the water has moved on. > This page is not here. > --------------------------------------------------- > > Out of memory. > We wish to hold the whole sky, > But we never will. > ------------------------------------------------ > > Having been erased, > The document you're seeking > Must now be retyped. > --------------------------------------------------- > > Serious error. > All shortcuts have disappeared. > Screen. Mind. Both are blank. > > Isn't that better than "your computer has performed an illegal operation? > > > From lupinesque at yahoo.com Sat Jun 8 03:01:02 2002 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (lupinesque) Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2002 03:01:02 -0000 Subject: What happened with the coconut? (was Help wanted!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Trina, how did the story end? Are you still out there? Are you still banging (or is it Banging) various objects against your coconut? Has flinging helped? Have you given up on how our primate ancestors did things and rented a steamroller? We must know: have you succeeded in tasting the sweet fruit or does it elude you ever, ever? Amy sleepless with visions of Trina gazing into the little hole in the coconut and silently weeping From lupinesque at yahoo.com Sun Jun 9 01:56:26 2002 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (lupinesque) Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 01:56:26 -0000 Subject: a very special birthday Message-ID: Then she realizes that she's a GEIST and doesn't do *anything* QUIETLY and runs back into the room screaming, ***********HAPPY BIRTHDAY, BIRTHDAY ELF SHERYLL!!!!************* and cartwheels across the ceiling, cackling madly and waking up the entire castle. Hope it's a beaut, Sheryll. You're the greatest! Amygeist From catlady at wicca.net Sun Jun 9 02:12:51 2002 From: catlady at wicca.net (catlady_de_los_angeles) Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 02:12:51 -0000 Subject: Vanity/Self-Esteem / National Day / Gifted and Other Children Message-ID: I'm sure I've missed over 100 people's birthdays, anniversaries, illnesses, recoveries, and other events where they needed to be patted on the back --- I mean, people on HPfGU lists whom I *like* and I *wanted* to pat their backs, but I was AFK so long! Naama wrote: > Fighting vanity, once such an important paedagogical principle > (remember Marilla in Anne of Green Gables?), seems to have gone > completely out of fashion, hasn't it? Now it's all about making > your child feel good about herself, giving her a lot of positive > reinforcement, etc. There may be sound reason for this, not merely that people in general became increasingly sinful through the twentieth century. For one thing, once upon a time, 95% of people were farmers and neighbors worked somewhat co-operatively and the vast majority of people were compelled to stay in the same social class as their parents, but nowdays most people have to find jobs/careers different from their parents' jobs/careers, and both downward and upward social mobility occur fairly often. So it would make sense that people in the old days would have a need to be contented with the inherited status and career (usually farming) that they were stuck with, contented to defer to people of higher social class or older age, and it would make sense that people nowdays would have a need to have the courage and aggression to fight in the competition for good grades / college admission / jobs / promotions / customers / investors.... I'm suggesting that teaching people humility (the opposite of vanity) is good for the old-fashioned goal of keeping to your station and bad for the new-fangled goal of making a huge fortune. Another possibility is that modern life does a lot more damage to children's self-esteem than old-time life did, so first aid for their self-esteem is a new need. Two things that *might* have been some good for old-time kids' self-esteem is that they could see the obvious value to the family's survival of the work (chores) they did on the farm, and that they spent a lot of time in the presence of adults, watching the adults work (while doing their own work) and thus learning how to do adult work. One thing in the modern world that is *surely* bad for *everyone's* self-esteem is television, constantly showing us physically beautiful, fashionable, prosperous people that it implies we are *supposed* to resemble, and being based on showing advertisements, whose method of urging us to buy their products is subtlely making us feel that we are defective and can have our defects fixed by the product. Ali Hewisonw wrote: > I confess to being rather jealous of the US and other countries > that have a special day to celebrate being themselves. I had the impression that many old countries have their patron saint's day as their national day. For England, that would be St. George. Mexico has an Independence Day but makes a bigger celebration of the anniversary of a famous battle (5 de mayo, battle of Puebla). Tabouli wrote: > My mother, alas, didn't much like the amount of attention he gave > me, and plumped for 3, of course, and my brother joined in > wholeheartedly. As, it seems, did both of poor Catlady's parents > in her case. No, I must give my parents credit for having been type II in their way. I don't recall them much studying research about how to educate gifted children, but their idea was like your further words: << bullied into extending into ever more domains where excelling is expected a la archetype 2 parents >> Cindy Sphynx wrote: > After all, we don't label non-gifted children as underachievers if > they do not reach goals they set for themselves or if they don't > reach some objective measure of achievement. Sure we do. Whoever heard of a parent being satisfied with their IQ = 100 child bringing home 'averaqe' grades? > I never scored as gifted or profoundly gifted on an IQ test. I don't know if you ever *took* an IQ test, but I *sure* that if you did, you would score as gifted or profoundly gifted. I base this opinion partly on reading what you write on these lists, and partly on my knowledge that success in law school and bar exams involves some of whatever it is that IQ tests measure, so that statistically it is very rare for a person of merely 100 IQ to become a lawyer (they must have worked *very* hard (hi, Tabouli!) or had someone pull strings for them). From pennylin at swbell.net Sun Jun 9 04:14:48 2002 From: pennylin at swbell.net (plinsenmayer) Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 04:14:48 -0000 Subject: One Year Ago .... Message-ID: Hi -- One Year Ago today .... I was about to be evacuating my flooding house in the costliest tropical storm in US history (Tropical Storm Allison). Allison dumped 80% of our average annual rainfall on us over a 5 day period (but mostly on the night of June 8/9), which was 32 trillion gallons of water according to the paper. When it was over, 22 Houstonians lost their lives, 73,000 residences were damaged, 100,000 autos were damaged, countless businesses damaged ... a total pricetag of $5 billion. Apparently at one point that night 28 inches of rain fell in parts of northeast Houston, and the flood levels approached 15 feet. They pumped astronomical amounts of water out of the downtown parking garages & tunnel system. The Texas Medical Center (largest collection of medical facilities in the world) was hit hard ... sustaining 40% of the $5 billion in damages. It is a ongoing nightmare since years of research projects were lost entirely. One of the lasting images from Allison for me is hearing about how 2 hospitals lost power entirely & they were manually running the machines for the critically ill patients & evacuating them down flights of dark stairs with no a/c. I know they landed Blackhawk military helicopters in Hermann Park to airlift many patients to San Antonio. :::shudders:::: Of course, the other indelible image engraved in my mind is my husband zipping up our 6 week old daughter into his jacket to evacuate to our next-door neighbors' house (2 story). It turns out we only got 3 inches ... but we didn't want to end up on the roof awaiting the Coast Guard with a small baby. The other thing I can remember vividly is watching the weather reports ... the meterologists were just ashen faced (apparently Allison was dumping rain at a rate of 100% of what any given cloud could deliver...). I remember thinking, rather stupidly, as I looked at the map of Houston with the entire inner city area covered in "bright red" radar & wondering if they could simultaneously evacuate 1 million people by helicopter or if we would get preference due to the baby. :--) Silly things occur to you in a crisis I suppose. Anyway, one year later, I'm glad to be sitting back in my repaired house & it's *NOT RAINING*! :--) Penny From ch001d4564 at blueyonder.co.uk Sun Jun 9 07:10:06 2002 From: ch001d4564 at blueyonder.co.uk (Martin Hooper) Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 08:10:06 +0100 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] One Year Ago .... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020609080855.009fb7d0@pop3.blueyonder.co.uk> At 05:14 09/06/02, you wrote: >Hi -- > >One Year Ago today .... I was about to be evacuating my flooding house >in the costliest tropical storm in US history (Tropical Storm >Allison). Allison dumped 80% of our average annual rainfall on us >over a 5 day period (but mostly on the night of June 8/9), which was >32 trillion gallons of water according to the paper. When it was >over, 22 Houstonians lost their lives, 73,000 residences were damaged, >100,000 autos were damaged, countless businesses damaged ... a total >pricetag of $5 billion. Oh Penny...;) What an interesting story... Makes me glad I live in the UK where it does rain but nowhere near that sort of weather! Glad you and the family got out of it safely... Martin J Hooper http://www.martinjh.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk AIM: Martinjh99 ICQ: 43933602 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From macloudt at hotmail.com Sun Jun 9 08:02:48 2002 From: macloudt at hotmail.com (Mary Jennings) Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 08:02:48 +0000 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] a very special birthday Message-ID: :::::Dizzy Elf stomps her foot and pouts because Amygeist was first with preparing Sheryll's birthday surprise. Despite the early hour she grabs a fortified butter beer and shouts::::: >***********HAPPY BIRTHDAY, BIRTHDAY ELF SHERYLL!!!!************* Here's hoping you have a fantastic day and that you get spoiled rotten with lots of HP goodies. Put your feet up and make sure that Andy caters to your every whim! Loads of schnoogles, Mary Ann (who's sticking her tongue out at Amygeist) _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. From saitaina at wizzards.net Sun Jun 9 08:31:04 2002 From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina) Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 01:31:04 -0700 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] a very special birthday References: Message-ID: <009601c20f8f$ff720e40$134e28d1@oemcomputer> :::::Saity elf comes running in carrying a large cauldron of Every Flavor Beans, black pillow case dress flying out behind her. She sets the cauldron on the table and pants:::::: I's late I is. Happy birthday love! Here's hoping there's no earwax or vomit flavored beans to spoil your happy day! Saitaina (who's actually not late...for once) Saitaina ***** Trust in God but lock your car. Share your knowledge. It's a way to achieve immortality. Be gentle with the earth. Once a year, go some place you've never been before. Learn the rules then break some. Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cindysphynx at comcast.net Sun Jun 9 12:43:28 2002 From: cindysphynx at comcast.net (cindysphynx) Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 12:43:28 -0000 Subject: Class Rank and Average Children (WAS Vanity/Self-Esteem / ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Naama wrote: > Fighting vanity, once such an important paedagogical > principle (remember Marilla in Anne of Green Gables?), seems to >have gone completely out of fashion, hasn't it? Now it's all about >making your child feel good about herself, giving her a lot of >positive reinforcement, etc. >I'm sure that many > parents push their children out of real anxiety as to their future > prospects. Doing well in school isn't only something for parents >to brag about. It can actually mean a huge difference in the >child's future standard of living. Catlady replied: >One thing in the modern world > that is *surely* bad for *everyone's* self-esteem is television, Here's one idea to throw into the pot. I think one thing that could be undermining self-esteem is the tremendous amount of *ranking* of people that goes on. You get grades -- someone else's assessment of how you stack up -- from the time you are five years old. In high school and college, this morphs into an actual class rank -- 200 people are *better* than you are, and 250 are worse. (I always wondered how the person at the rock bottom felt about this.) You know what? I attended a university that, despite all manner of pressure to the contrary, *does not* issue class rank *or* a GPA. You got grades (but there only 4 grade levels, but almost all marks were in the top 2 grade levels), but no one could say they were tops in their class because there was no ranking. This seemed to *torture* employers who interviewed us for jobs. They would have my transcript with all of my grades and classes as well as a resume, but they would still ask, "What's your class rank/GPA?" I'd tell them that the school doesn't compute that information. And they just hated that, because they couldn't make a snap comparison among applicants. No, they had to delve into your background, observe how you present yourself, look at the sorts of classes you took. It freaked them right out. They'd sometimes even ask me to *guess* what my ranking might be. Yet I had classmates who *hated* this system of grading. They were so trained up to be tops in their classes that they were uncomfortable when not given the opportunity to demonstrate their superiority over everyone else. I think more and more schools are starting to figure out that the emphasis on grades and class rank is not a positive development. I once went to the campus of a well-regarded law school to interview applicants for jobs at a law firm. This school had just instituted a new system to handle grades and transcripts. The interviewer was given resumes for all of the students who had requested interviews. Students were forbidden to disclose their grades or rank on the resume or during the interview. I was *not* given their transcript until *after* all the interviews were completed. The idea was that this would encourage the interviewer to focus less on grades and rank and more on the person. And it *really* worked. The upshot was that I would interview someone, I would be impressed with how they presented themselves and what they had done. Then I would get the transcript and would see borderline grades. But by that point, I was so *taken* with the person as a person that I was willing to advocate their hiring for all the right reasons -- that they present themselves well and that they have done *well enough* in their classes to demonstrate that they can do the work. On the other hand, I would sometimes see a candidate who was a total Toad. Couldn't hold a conversation, couldn't string two sentences together, no interesting experience on the resume. By the end of the interview, I was sufficiently underwhelmed that I wouldn't be considering them as a potential hire. Then I'd get the transcript and see that they had top marks. Usually, if you saw a student with top marks, you felt some pressure to hire them. I mean, they have the best *qualifications* because of those grades, don't they? Despite this, I *still* wouldn't want to hire them because they really weren't the best candidate, despite the high marks. I thought that this system was really a major improvement. But I heard that many of the students at that school didn't like the system. The top students figured that they were being robbed of jobs to which they were automatically entitled because of their high grades. I wrote: > After all, we don't label non-gifted children as underachievers if > they do not reach goals they set for themselves or if they don't > reach some objective measure of achievement. Catlady replied: > Sure we do. Whoever heard of a parent being satisfied with their >IQ = 100 child bringing home 'averaqe' grades? This is rather interesting. I have a child who is, er, average academically. The first thing I'd say is that parents of children who are average may well have no idea what the IQ is. For what possible reason would I go out and have my child tested for IQ? So right there, you don't have any reason to be wondering whether your child is an underachiever in the sense Shaun defined it. OK, then. Are parents of children who bring home "average grades" satisfied or dissatisfied? Well, it varies, of course. The parents who react most strongly to this, IMHO, seem to snag all of the headlines, don't they? They may have their children tested and assessed, looking for some evidence of a disability that can be easily remedied or other explanation for the average performance. They may hound the teachers or question the marks. They may switch schools. They may hiring tutors. They may wind up "helping" the child with the homework just a little too much. I wish them luck with all of that. But some of us (including parents of average students who will discuss this if you get a few drinks into them) decide to just accept the situation. I mean, this realization that your child is average doesn't come on suddenly. From the age of 5, you kind of notice that your child is doing "fine." Their weaknesses show up on report card after report card. And you yourself observe that, no matter how much study goes into a certain subject, they just never really seem to be able to outdo the other kids academically. And after enough years of this, you realize that, well, your kid is just average academically. Oh, they have their strengths. They are learning, and they *get* their schoolwork. They are not lost or frustrated. They might even have their successes in other areas -- music, sport, social popularity. They're happy overall and not Bent. It's just that . . . well . . . they aren't going to blow anyone's socks off in the classroom unless something changes rather dramatically. So you have a decision to make -- are you going to accept this, or are you going to fight it? My view is that nothing good will come from constantly registering my disapproval. I think I'll just accept my kid the way she is. She works hard, she is diligent, and a fair few other kids seem to be better academically than she is. I really don't think pressuring her will do any good, because she's not *stupid*. She knows that she isn't making top marks, although I suspect she'd love to make top marks. But she's doing the best she can, and that is just going to have to be good enough. And I won't be waiting by the mailbox for that Harvard admission letter to arrive. Catlady (about my own lack of gifted or profoundly gifted statsu): > I don't know if you ever *took* an IQ test, but I *sure* that if >you did, you would score as gifted or profoundly gifted. Aw, that's really nice of you, Catlady! But no, no high IQ here, I'm afraid. I don't know for sure what gets tested on an IQ test, but I'd imagine that spatial relations tasks come up a fair amount. And I was born with *no* ability to do tasks requiring spatial relations. I cannot even match the Tupperware with the right lid, for heaven's sake. I just don't have what it takes to visualize *anything*. That's OK, though. Did you know that they put a number on the lid of the Tupperware and a number on the bottom? All you have to do is match the numbers up. Problem solved! ;-) Cindy (who was once given a gift consisting of a little puzzle that had two pieces of metal that were intertwined, and the game was that you were supposed to unhook them, and who worked on this puzzle for a long time and then threw it directly in the trash) From voicelady at mymailstation.com Sun Jun 9 12:45:28 2002 From: voicelady at mymailstation.com (voicelady) Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 08:45:28 EDT Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] a very special birthday Message-ID: Hope you have a marvelous birthday and a super year. Happy Birthday, Sheryl! Jeralyn From Joanne0012 at aol.com Sun Jun 9 13:30:23 2002 From: Joanne0012 at aol.com (joanne0012) Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 13:30:23 -0000 Subject: Strange poll category for Rowling In-Reply-To: <66B7848E9@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu> Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., Rachel Bray wrote: > Biography is doing a poll for sexiest people and have > several different categories. > > Rowling is a choice for one of the categories. But she's > under "In the News". Strange when right above that > category is "Writer". > > http://www.biography.com/bio15/index.jsp > > *shrug* Thought that was odd. Well, perhaps it's qualities other than her writing that make her "sexy." Like maybe her money and outright celebrity. In refusing to undergo a glamorizing makeover, she's in good company with other scruffy zillionaires like Bill Gates, Donald Trump, and Martha Stewart. From s_ings at yahoo.com Sun Jun 9 13:32:51 2002 From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend) Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 09:32:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] a very special birthday In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020609133251.90703.qmail@web14610.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mary Jennings wrote: > :::::Dizzy Elf stomps her foot and pouts because > Amygeist was first with > preparing Sheryll's birthday surprise. Despite the > early hour she grabs a > fortified butter beer and shouts::::: > > >***********HAPPY BIRTHDAY, BIRTHDAY ELF > SHERYLL!!!!************* Now, now, Dizzy Elf, no pouting allowed on my birthday. Besides, you still have a chance to convince everyone that I'm only 29. Amygeist didn't know about that part, did she? > > Here's hoping you have a fantastic day and that you > get spoiled rotten with > lots of HP goodies. Put your feet up and make sure > that Andy caters to your > every whim! > > Loads of schnoogles, > > Mary Ann > (who's sticking her tongue out at Amygeist) While putting my feet up and having Andy cater to my every whim is nice in theory.... he's at work. Left at 5:30 this morning and will not be back until around 8 this evening. I have no gifts coming today and no cake that I'm aware of, having been preempted by my nephew once again (whose birthday is Tuesday). Sheryll, who has so far spent her day doing laundry :) ______________________________________________________________________ Movies, Music, Sports, Games! http://entertainment.yahoo.ca From strijkg at xs4all.nl Sun Jun 9 13:49:03 2002 From: strijkg at xs4all.nl (Riet Strijker) Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 15:49:03 +0200 (West-Europa (zomertijd)) Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] a very special birthday References: <20020609133251.90703.qmail@web14610.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3D035CCF.000009.43231@xbwesrtn> Huh....delurks for a brief moment: Sheryll, Congratulations, many happy returns of the day! doing laundry?....remindsme Back into lurking mode Riet -------Original Message------- From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com Date: zondag 09 juni 2002 15:32:53 To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [HPFGU-OTChatter] a very special birthday --- Mary Jennings wrote: > :::::Dizzy Elf stomps her foot and pouts because > Amygeist was first with > preparing Sheryll's birthday surprise. Despite the > early hour she grabs a > fortified butter beer and shouts::::: > > >***********HAPPY BIRTHDAY, BIRTHDAY ELF > SHERYLL!!!!************* Now, now, Dizzy Elf, no pouting allowed on my birthday. Besides, you still have a chance to convince everyone that I'm only 29. Amygeist didn't know about that part, did she? > > Here's hoping you have a fantastic day and that you > get spoiled rotten with > lots of HP goodies. Put your feet up and make sure > that Andy caters to your > every whim! > > Loads of schnoogles, > > Mary Ann > (who's sticking her tongue out at Amygeist) While putting my feet up and having Andy cater to my every whim is nice in theory.... he's at work. Left at 5:30 this morning and will not be back until around 8 this evening. I have no gifts coming today and no cake that I'm aware of, having been preempted by my nephew once again (whose birthday is Tuesday). Sheryll, who has so far spent her day doing laundry :) ______________________________________________________________________ Movies, Music, Sports, Games! http://entertainment.yahoo.ca Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the group's Admin Files! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/ Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Is your message... An announcement of merchandise, news etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. Movie-related? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com Unsubscribing? Email HPFGU-OTChatter-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com ____________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From catlady at wicca.net Sun Jun 9 18:39:17 2002 From: catlady at wicca.net (catlady_de_los_angeles) Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 18:39:17 -0000 Subject: Strange poll category for Rowling In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Btw, HAPPY BIRTHDAY SHERYLL! Even if you have to spend your appointed day doing laundry, make him give you a present later. --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "joanne0012" wrote: > Well, perhaps it's qualities other than her writing that make her > "sexy." Like maybe her money and outright celebrity. In refusing > to undergo a glamorizing makeover, she's in good company with other > scruffy zillionaires like Bill Gates, Donald Trump, and Martha > Stewart. But she DID have a glamourizing make-over in 2000, apparently as preparation for the publicity tour for GOF. She went from reddish-brownish to blonde, for example. From macloudt at hotmail.com Sun Jun 9 19:14:02 2002 From: macloudt at hotmail.com (Mary Jennings) Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 19:14:02 +0000 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] a very special birthday Message-ID: Sheryll the birthday gal said: >Now, now, Dizzy Elf, no pouting allowed on my >birthday. Besides, you still have a chance to convince >everyone that I'm only 29. Amygeist didn't know about >that part, did she? Oh, yes, of course. Sheryll's 29, everyone. She is. Really. And I'm 21. Really. Ooh, look! Flying pigs! ;) Mary Ann (who spent all morning in the pissing rain putting up tents) _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com From catlady at wicca.net Sun Jun 9 19:37:12 2002 From: catlady at wicca.net (catlady_de_los_angeles) Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 19:37:12 -0000 Subject: a very special birthday In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "Mary Jennings" wrote: > Oh, yes, of course. Sheryll's 29, everyone. She is. Really. How old is Nyssa, then? (I hope putting up the tents in the rain wasn't TOO obnoxious.) From saitaina at wizzards.net Sun Jun 9 19:52:47 2002 From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina) Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 12:52:47 -0700 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: a very special birthday References: Message-ID: <014a01c20fef$3b57b7c0$134e28d1@oemcomputer> I am fully prepared to believe Sheryll's 29. After all, my grandmother's been fourty for 21 years...and I belive her. :o) Saitaina ***** Trust in God but lock your car. Share your knowledge. It's a way to achieve immortality. Be gentle with the earth. Once a year, go some place you've never been before. Learn the rules then break some. Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From s_ings at yahoo.com Sun Jun 9 19:58:12 2002 From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend) Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 15:58:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: a very special birthday In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020609195812.99588.qmail@web14605.mail.yahoo.com> --- catlady_de_los_angeles wrote: > --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "Mary Jennings" > wrote: > > > Oh, yes, of course. Sheryll's 29, everyone. She > is. Really. > > How old is Nyssa, then? > She's.....10, yes, that's it... she's 10. Sheryll ===== "We need to be united and strong. We'll have losses and scares, sure. And you'll be there for each other, helping each other through the bad times." blpurdom - Harry Potter and the Psychic Serpent, Chapter 26 ______________________________________________________________________ Movies, Music, Sports, Games! http://entertainment.yahoo.ca From nethilia at yahoo.com Sun Jun 9 19:58:42 2002 From: nethilia at yahoo.com (Nethilia) Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 12:58:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: One Year Ago .... In-Reply-To: <1023646105.238.58003.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20020609195842.90044.qmail@web14608.mail.yahoo.com> > From: "plinsenmayer" > Subject: One Year Ago .... > > Hi -- > > One Year Ago today .... I was about to be evacuating > my flooding house > in the costliest tropical storm in US history > (Tropical Storm > Allison). Allison dumped 80% of our average annual > rainfall on us > over a 5 day period (but mostly on the night of June > 8/9), which was > 32 trillion gallons of water according to the paper. > When it was > over, 22 Houstonians lost their lives, 73,000 > residences were damaged, > 100,000 autos were damaged, countless businesses > damaged ... a total > pricetag of $5 billion. Ick, I remember that, I hated it, every bit of it. *is also from Houston...er, was living there at the time* > Apparently at one point that night 28 inches of rain > fell in parts of > northeast Houston, and the flood levels approached > 15 feet. They > pumped astronomical amounts of water out of the > downtown parking > garages & tunnel system. The Texas Medical Center > (largest collection > of medical facilities in the world) was hit hard ... > sustaining 40% of > the $5 billion in damages. It is a ongoing > nightmare since years of > research projects were lost entirely. One of the > lasting images from > Allison for me is hearing about how 2 hospitals lost > power entirely & > they were manually running the machines for the > critically ill > patients & evacuating them down flights of dark > stairs with no a/c. I > know they landed Blackhawk military helicopters in > Hermann Park to > airlift many patients to San Antonio. > :::shudders:::: > > Of course, the other indelible image engraved in my > mind is my husband > zipping up our 6 week old daughter into his jacket > to evacuate to our > next-door neighbors' house (2 story). It turns out > we only got 3 > inches ... but we didn't want to end up on the roof > awaiting the Coast > Guard with a small baby. Mine is being stuck in a house, all by myself, and having to wander outside in waist deep water, pop the braker switch off and sit in the dark for almost three hours, because we had a lot of extention cords for my mom's machines and the last thing I wanted was to be electrocuted as water rushed in. I also remember that my mom and two sisters were out by themselves, in the truck, and nearly got swept away by the water. As my sister put it (and still does today), "I slept on a bridge. I rode a tractor. When your mother points to the sign on the 59 bridge and the water is touching it, that is NOT A GOOD SIGN!" I also remember turning around, seeing water coming in, and grabbing my comp off the floor and dropping it on top of the nearest chair, then turning around and seeing that exact spot waterlogged. I had to sleep in the other chair, and I didn't sleep until almost 7 am. My mom and sisters didn't get home until Saturday evening. > The other thing I can remember vividly is watching > the weather reports > ... the meterologists were just ashen faced > (apparently Allison was > dumping rain at a rate of 100% of what any given > cloud could > deliver...). I remember thinking, rather stupidly, > as I looked at the > map of Houston with the entire inner city area > covered in "bright red" > radar & wondering if they could simultaneously > evacuate 1 million > people by helicopter or if we would get preference > due to the baby. > :--) Silly things occur to you in a crisis I > suppose. Yah...I was massively worried because I was supposed to fly to Denver that Tuesday and I was stupidly wondering if Intercontinental Airport was flooded and if I could get there without drowning. (I did get there, on the bus, with three suitcases, a backpack, and a duffle bag.) I was also shocked watching the semi trucks float on I-10 and going O_o. > Anyway, one year later, I'm glad to be sitting back > in my repaired > house & it's *NOT RAINING*! :--) I'm glad for the same thing--only my mom moved out of where we were to move to Milwaukee (but that's a whole nother story). I really don't like floods. --Neth ===== --Nethilia de Lobo-- 79% obsessed with Harry Potter Wand: Dragon Heartstring, Ash, 7 inches **Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus.** http://ww.cepheid.org/~marshmallow Spenecial.com. Two girls. One Website. Total Chaos. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com From s_ings at yahoo.com Sun Jun 9 20:00:19 2002 From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend) Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 16:00:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: a very special birthday In-Reply-To: <014a01c20fef$3b57b7c0$134e28d1@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <20020609200019.97650.qmail@web14604.mail.yahoo.com> --- Saitaina wrote: > I am fully prepared to believe Sheryll's 29. After > all, my grandmother's been fourty for 21 years...and > I belive her. :o) > > Saitaina > And statements like are precisely why I love you so much. Sheryll, glad to hear some believes she's young (and waiting for Neil to make some comment on middle age) ______________________________________________________________________ Movies, Music, Sports, Games! http://entertainment.yahoo.ca From ch001d4564 at blueyonder.co.uk Sun Jun 9 20:13:26 2002 From: ch001d4564 at blueyonder.co.uk (Martin Hooper) Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 21:13:26 +0100 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: a very special birthday In-Reply-To: <20020609195812.99588.qmail@web14605.mail.yahoo.com> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020609211034.009faa30@pop3.blueyonder.co.uk> At 20:58 09/06/02, you wrote: > > How old is Nyssa, then? > > >She's.....10, yes, that's it... she's 10. Sheryll - Happy B/Day...;) Was your daughter named after the companion from Dr Who..? http://www.bbc.co.uk/cult/doctorwho/doctors/doctor5.shtml - Her bio is on this page... Just wondering as it a rather unusual name... Martin J Hooper http://www.martinjh.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk AIM: Martinjh99 ICQ: 43933602 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 9 20:16:28 2002 From: witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com (Wanda the Witch) Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 13:16:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: a very special birthday In-Reply-To: <20020609200019.97650.qmail@web14604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20020609201628.75704.qmail@web13702.mail.yahoo.com> All of us Malletts certainly want to get into this Special Birthday Spirit for Sheryll's Special Birthday today! HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO OUR SPECIAL BIRTHDAY ELF UP NORTH! MAY YOU GET PLENTY OF SPECIAL ATTENTION FROM ANDY! No doubt he made you a special cake! May you get your wishes, oh, yes, you get more than one! Your our Special Birthday Elf up there! Schnoogles to all of you and enjoy your day! You worked hard to get the day filled with lots of magical goodies! Have fun! Schnoogles, Wanda the Witch of Revere,Massachusetts and Her Very Merry Band of Muggles 100% "When you come to the edge of all the light you know, and are about to step off into the darkness of the unknown, faith is knowing one of two things will happen; There will be something solid to stand on, or you will be taught how to fly."......Unknown. --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Sign-up for Video Highlights of 2002 FIFA World Cup [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From s_ings at yahoo.com Sun Jun 9 20:17:06 2002 From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend) Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 16:17:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Nyssa (was: Re: a very special birthday) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020609211034.009faa30@pop3.blueyonder.co.uk> Message-ID: <20020609201706.92294.qmail@web14608.mail.yahoo.com> --- Martin Hooper wrote: > At 20:58 09/06/02, you wrote: > > > How old is Nyssa, then? > > > > >She's.....10, yes, that's it... she's 10. > > Sheryll - Happy B/Day...;) > > Was your daughter named after the companion from Dr > Who..? > > http://www.bbc.co.uk/cult/doctorwho/doctors/doctor5.shtml > - Her bio is on > this page... > > Just wondering as it a rather unusual name... Actually, no. I've rarely watched Dr. Who. I just picked the name out of a book of baby names because I liked it. Sheryll ===== "We need to be united and strong. We'll have losses and scares, sure. And you'll be there for each other, helping each other through the bad times." blpurdom - Harry Potter and the Psychic Serpent, Chapter 26 ______________________________________________________________________ Movies, Music, Sports, Games! http://entertainment.yahoo.ca From boggles at earthlink.net Sun Jun 9 22:33:39 2002 From: boggles at earthlink.net (Jennifer Boggess Ramon) Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 17:33:39 -0500 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] One Year Ago .... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 4:14 AM +0000 6/9/02, plinsenmayer wrote: > >Anyway, one year later, I'm glad to be sitting back in my repaired >house & it's *NOT RAINING*! :--) Well, it _was_ raining here a few hours ago - but nothing like that. I didn't sleep that night at all. The Spouse and I and two friends had just visited the new Central Market for the first time early in the evening of Friday the 8th. By the time we were driving home, Westheimer was completely flooded and water was seeping into the car. Fortunately, our four-plex is set on a five-foot rise above the street - water lapped up to our front steps, but was two feet short of actually getting into the building. We were worried, though - we're within walking distance of Buffalo Bayou. Another friend of ours had no damage to his duplex, but couldn't leave the house - his street was blocked at both ends by water too high to drive through for two days. Ai. -- - Boggles, aka J. C. B. Ramon boggles at earthlink.net === Personal Growth Geek Code v0.4 === GG++ !T A-- M++s--- g+ B- C- P++++ a- b- h+ her++ E+ N n++ i f+ c++ S%++++&&># D R++ xc++ xm+ xi+ yd++ ys++(-) rt+ ro+ rp++++ rjk<+ ow+++ ofn+ oft++ op++ esk-- ey+ ek+++ pl++ pf++ pe++ U! From boggles at earthlink.net Sun Jun 9 22:43:05 2002 From: boggles at earthlink.net (Jennifer Boggess Ramon) Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 17:43:05 -0500 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Class Rank and Average Children (WAS Vanity/Self-Esteem / ) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 12:43 PM +0000 6/9/02, cindysphynx wrote: > >Here's one idea to throw into the pot. I think one thing that could >be undermining self-esteem is the tremendous amount of *ranking* of >people that goes on. You get grades -- someone else's assessment of >how you stack up -- from the time you are five years old. In high >school and college, this morphs into an actual class rank -- 200 >people are *better* than you are, and 250 are worse. (I always >wondered how the person at the rock bottom felt about this.) Hmm. I went to one of the state magnet high schools, and the policy there was to steadfastly refuse to rank the students. The rationale was that every one of us, to have gotten into the magnet school to begin with, would have had to be in the top ten percent of our original high schools, and it simply wasn't fair to suddenly be in the bottom half simply because you chose to challenge yourself. The school did release our GPA's to the colleges we applied to, but no ranking. I don't think the college I went to ranked the general population, either. I think it did calculate ranks for individual schools - architecture, for instance - but not for the general student body. -- - Boggles, aka J. C. B. Ramon boggles at earthlink.net === Personal Growth Geek Code v0.4 === GG++ !T A-- M++s--- g+ B- C- P++++ a- b- h+ her++ E+ N n++ i f+ c++ S%++++&&># D R++ xc++ xm+ xi+ yd++ ys++(-) rt+ ro+ rp++++ rjk<+ ow+++ ofn+ oft++ op++ esk-- ey+ ek+++ pl++ pf++ pe++ U! From dradamsapple at yahoo.com Mon Jun 10 04:19:46 2002 From: dradamsapple at yahoo.com (dradamsapple) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 04:19:46 -0000 Subject: a very special birthday In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "lupinesque" wrote: > Sheryll comes in tomorrow, June 9, her birthday. > > ***********HAPPY BIRTHDAY, BIRTHDAY ELF SHERYLL!!!!************* > > Hope it's a beaut, Sheryll. You're the greatest! > > Amygeist Sheryll, >From one June baby to another (and yes, quite a coincidence, my birthday was also June 9); *Happy Birthday!!!* ;) And, bye the way, I've been 29 for the past 13 years!! Anna . . . From macloudt at hotmail.com Mon Jun 10 08:16:30 2002 From: macloudt at hotmail.com (Mary Jennings) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 08:16:30 +0000 Subject: It's England...of *course* it's raining Message-ID: Catlady said: >(I hope putting up the tents in the rain wasn't TOO obnoxious.) Nah. We were all soaked to our knickers, but we had a laugh. It was our District Guide golden jubilee party yesterday, and Muggins here was on site four hours early to help with the setup. It was peeing it down all morning as we were trying to erect a huge tent (about 25 feet long) that wasn't ours and therefore we weren't familiar with it. We got finally got the frame up, and then realized that we'd neglected to put the roof canvas on. After a collective "BUGGER!!!" _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From macloudt at hotmail.com Mon Jun 10 08:23:30 2002 From: macloudt at hotmail.com (Mary Jennings) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 08:23:30 +0000 Subject: as I was saying... Message-ID: ...sorry, hit Send by mistake! *DUH* Anyway, about the tent...it took ages to set up. At one point the roof canvas threatened to send half a dozen Guide leaders paragliding over the town. Good thing most of us have to shop in "Big Girl" departments. ;) Preparing the smaller tents wasn't so bad but by then we were soaked through. Every one of us went home for a change of clothes. It had stopped raining one hour before the girls were due to arrive so we were able to do all the planned activities anyway. Then there was the task of clearing up after everyone had left, and much to our surprise we *weren't* rained on. This morning I'm very tired and very sore! Anyway that was my patriotic bit of fun. Those of us who were there from beginning to end agree that yesterday definately warrants a girls' night out. Let's call it a toast to the Queen...yes, that's our excuse... Mary Ann (who wants to crawl back in bed, but it's not even 9:30 am yet) _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Mon Jun 10 12:16:52 2002 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 12:16:52 -0000 Subject: McGonagall is Ever So Hard to Spell Message-ID: No excuse to put this on the main list... Have you noticed the difficulty people have with her name? MacGonegal, MAQCGONAGALL, McGongagall, McGonnagal, etc. I think we may just have to call her You-know-who David From macloudt at hotmail.com Mon Jun 10 14:10:30 2002 From: macloudt at hotmail.com (Mary Jennings) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 14:10:30 +0000 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] McGonagall is Ever So Hard to Spell Message-ID: David noted: >Have you noticed the difficulty people have with her name? > >MacGonegal, MAQCGONAGALL, McGongagall, McGonnagal, etc. > >I think we may just have to call her You-know-who I've noticed the various spellings as well, and my guess is that some of these Listies have read the books in languages other than English, which have altered at least some of the names. In these cases it would be difficult for them to know off the top of their heads what the original English spelling is. Heck, I double-check the spellings of some names as well, just to be sure. On that topic, what are some of the changed names that non-English versions of HP have included? Just curious...and too lazy to look this info up myself ;) Mary Ann (still tired from yesterday) _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From lupinesque at yahoo.com Mon Jun 10 14:36:30 2002 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (lupinesque) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 14:36:30 -0000 Subject: McGonagall is Ever So Hard to Spell In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Mary Ann wrote: > I've noticed the various spellings as well, and my guess is that some of > these Listies have read the books in languages other than English, which > have altered at least some of the names. Or they've heard them but haven't read them. I hadn't a clue how to spell it when I first heard it, and was surprised the first time I read it. So many possibilities: Mc/Mac? One l or two? I've seen McGonagal, McGonagle and McGonigle, too, I think--either on the list or in the real world of people named variant-of-McGonagall. Amy who doesn't answer to Aimee From pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no Mon Jun 10 17:16:59 2002 From: pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no (pengolodh_sc) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 17:16:59 -0000 Subject: Weather in Norway Message-ID: To put it shortly: Yesterday, due to hot weather a South-African national fainted from heat-stroke while in the city of Bergen. From Ali at zymurgy.org Mon Jun 10 18:19:37 2002 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (alhewison) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 18:19:37 -0000 Subject: St Georges Day: was: Vanity/Self-Esteem / National Day etc In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I wrote:- > > > I confess to being rather jealous of the US and other countries > > that have a special day to celebrate being themselves. Catlady wrote:- > I had the impression that many old countries have their patron > saint's day as their national day. For England, that would be St. > George. Mexico has an Independence Day but makes a bigger celebration of the anniversary of a famous battle (5 de mayo, battle of Puebla). We do have St Georges Day, but it is not particularly "celebrated" - or at least nothing on the scale of say, St Patricks Day in Ireland, and still nothing compared to July 4th - both those days are celebrated more in Engliah Pubs than St Georges Day. I think that once England became a Protestant Country, it played down Saints days - although didn't get rid of them completely. The only times I have ever in anyway celebrated St Georges Day, is at Guide Parades at Church when I was a kid, and more recently with one of my friends who has a birthday on St Georges Day! Ali who didn't realise she shared her full name Alison with a hurricane, and also glad that however miserable our weather might be (like I thought we were supposed to be having summer now, but there's been next to no sunshine for a week), but at least we tend not to have extreme weather! From catlady at wicca.net Tue Jun 11 02:22:47 2002 From: catlady at wicca.net (catlady_de_los_angeles) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 02:22:47 -0000 Subject: I've been cheated! Message-ID: I went out to the front lawn of my apartment building and sat under a tree for an hour and a half, waiting to see the light show of myriad little eclipse-images amongst the shadows, like I read about in a Stephen Jay Gould (!) article: this apparation on a Manhattan sidewalk attracted a crowd of people who hadn't even known that an eclipse was scheduled for that day. No light show under the tree. Oh, well, it was a pleasant afternoon with a nice breeze. And Tim couldn't make the eclipse image come through a little hole in one paper onto another paper (or wall, or floor....). He claimed that technique had worked for him in the past. So I looked at the sun with my eyes, and saw the big bite taken out of it. From lupinesque at yahoo.com Tue Jun 11 11:29:24 2002 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (lupinesque) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 11:29:24 -0000 Subject: I've been cheated! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Catlady reported: > So I looked at the sun with my eyes, and saw the big bite taken out > of it. Doesn't sound like a bad outcome after all. I didn't know about it 'til after the fact. What is the use of reporting an eclipse as news, I ask you? Would I have seen it on the east coast if I'd been out at sunset? Amy From drednort at alphalink.com.au Tue Jun 11 11:35:13 2002 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 21:35:13 +1000 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: I've been cheated! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3D066D11.20945.223C693@localhost> On 11 Jun 2002 at 11:29, lupinesque wrote: > Catlady reported: > > > So I looked at the sun with my eyes, and saw the big bite taken out > > of it. > > Doesn't sound like a bad outcome after all. > > I didn't know about it 'til after the fact. What is the use of > reporting an eclipse as news, I ask you? > > Would I have seen it on the east coast if I'd been out at sunset? Astronomer hat on. Simple answer, no. The eclipse began after sundown as far as the east coast of the US was concerned. Everybody in the US west of Atlanta could have had some sort of view weather permitting, east of that - nope. As for looking at the sun (-8. The reason it's a bad idea is that even a brief look can have a negative impact on your eyesight. People should *never* look directly at the sun without specialised lenses - even sunglasses aren't a protection. You almost certainly won't go instantly blind, most of the time you will avoid any long term effects at all - but it is very risky. And the risk is seriously multiplied if you use binoculars or a telescope. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately |webpage: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) |email: drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil | Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Tue Jun 11 13:53:53 2002 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 13:53:53 -0000 Subject: I've been cheated! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Cheated Catlady wrote: > I went out to the front lawn of my apartment building and sat under > a tree for an hour and a half, waiting to see the light show of > myriad little eclipse-images amongst the shadows, like I read > about in a Stephen Jay Gould (!) article: this apparation on a > Manhattan sidewalk attracted a crowd of people who hadn't even known > that an eclipse was scheduled for that day. > > No light show under the tree. Oh, well, it was a pleasant afternoon > with a nice breeze. > > And Tim couldn't make the eclipse image come through a little hole in > one paper onto another paper (or wall, or floor....). He claimed that > technique had worked for him in the past. > > So I looked at the sun with my eyes, and saw the big bite taken out > of it. How big was the bite? I *have* seen the eclipse-images under trees before (1999), but the disk was 90%+ covered so the images were narrow crescents. It would be harder to spot for a more partial eclipse. As for viewing, what worked quite well was to fill a bucket with water and look at the reflection. Don't know if it's any safer though. The weirdest thing (given that I have never experienced totality) was the feeling it was heavily overcast despite a clear sky - an effect of the greatly reduced light levels. Also the sunlight was completely cold: the eye adapts and is deceived but the skin knows it is getting negligible warmth David From macloudt at hotmail.com Tue Jun 11 15:23:17 2002 From: macloudt at hotmail.com (Mary Jennings) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 15:23:17 +0000 Subject: Go England? Message-ID: As some of you may know, England plays Nigeria in the world football championships tomorrow morning GMT. On that note, my daughter came home from primary school with a letter to all parents. Here are snippets of it: "I am writing to let you know how this school will be operating tomorrow morning in response to many requests from parents and pupils. School will open as normal for pupils and we expect all children to be in by 8:50 am [normal opening time]...[w]e appreciate that many families are very interested in the [football] but some are not at all!". What follows is a schedule stating that TVs will be set up in school so that students can watch the second half of the game if they wish to do so. "School staff will supervise the watching of TV until the match ends when children will return to class and begin normal lessons. Unfortunately we do not have room for parents to stay". EH!? Parents stay? What the... The letter ends with the headteacher reinforcing that it is a normal school day, so uniforms are to be worn and face-painting and hair spraying will not be tolerated. I must point out that the headteacher is a brilliant man who turned a failing school into one of the best in town in less than two years. He is very tolerant and open-minded, so this poor man must have been bombarded by parents and students asking if the school will be closed if he had to resort to sending this letter out. If I didn't know him as well as I do I'd think it was a joke. OK, I'm not a heavy-duty sports fan, but IMHO requesting the cancellation of classes for a football game, or any kind of sport for that matter, is way out of order. I know it's only one morning out of the whole school year, but what does this say about the parents' priorities? How many kids will be called in "sick" so they can stay home to watch the game? How about any other sporting event that takes place during school hours? Do these parents expect the school to close whenever they can't be bothered to pull themselves away from a TV set? Me, peeved off? You bet. My jaw dropped in disbelief when I first read this letter. Have any other English parents received similar communication from their childrens' schools? Anyone one else ever had this happen? Anyone think I'm being completely anal retentive and should get a life? Mary Ann (who just passed the letter to her husband, and his jaw has just dropped as well) _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Tue Jun 11 16:01:59 2002 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 16:01:59 -0000 Subject: Go England? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "Mary Jennings" wrote: > What follows is a schedule stating that TVs will be set up in school so that students can watch the second half of the game if they wish to do so. > "School staff will supervise the watching of TV until the match ends when children will return to class and begin normal lessons. Unfortunately we do not have room for parents to stay". > It's the second half of summer term, SATs and other exams are over, and a teacher's mind turns desperately to ways of filling in the time before the summer hols... Seriously, how much of the morning is eaten into by this? If they manage to register in half-time and scrap assembly, won't it be half an hour at most? I think James' secondary school is opening the breakfast bar early so they can watch the whole match. In 1974, we were allowed to cut lessons to watch general election results coming in - but then, our teachers may have been under the illusion that that was an educational exercise rather than the sportive one it truly was. David, who thinks the French are the only people in the world who can shrug *on radio* From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Jun 11 16:43:01 2002 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 16:43:01 -0000 Subject: Go England? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "Mary Jennings" wrote: > As some of you may know, England plays Nigeria in the world football championships tomorrow morning GMT. On that note, my daughter came home > from primary school with a letter to all parents. Here are snippets of it: > > "I am writing to let you know how this school will be operating tomorrow morning in response to many requests from parents and pupils. School will open as normal for pupils and we expect all children to be in by 8:50 am << I can't speak to England, but remembering what it was like in Chicago long ago when the White Sox were up for the pennant (baseball league championship) it would have been hopeless to get the children to pay attention to lessons anyway. The school got paid per day of pupil attendance, so they wanted us on hand rather than watching the game at home. The whole town was pennant mad--when the Sox won, the fire chief set off the air raid warning sirens and put the whole town in a panic. Pippin From macloudt at hotmail.com Tue Jun 11 17:00:08 2002 From: macloudt at hotmail.com (Mary Jennings) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 17:00:08 +0000 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Go England? Message-ID: David reasoned: >It's the second half of summer term, SATs and other exams are over, >and a teacher's mind turns desperately to ways of filling in the time >before the summer hols... > >Seriously, how much of the morning is eaten into by this? If they >manage to register in half-time and scrap assembly, won't it be half >an hour at most? I know it won't bite into much school time; it's the principle of it all that I have a problem with. The school accommodating the game within school time (as you say, it's for less than an hour in school time) is fine, but it's the fact that the school has had to do this so that dozens of students aren't off for the day. Heck, Beth is in reception class and is nowhere near sitting exams yet! :) I just think that in the day and age of video recorders that the score can be announced in class at the end of the game, and the kids can go home after school and watch it on video. Or on a late edition of Match of the Day or whatever the ITV one is called. Goodness knows there's enough footie on the Idiot Box these days, no? ;) The kids get to choose whether they watch the game or do an activity in class. I have no idea what Beth will do...it will depend on what her friends want to do. She's like me; she can take sport or leave it. She'll cheer along with everybody else, but probably won't know why. Ah, the innocence of a 5-year-old. >I think James' secondary school is opening the breakfast bar early so >they can watch the whole match. This is a good idea. Unfortunately our school doesn't have a breakfast club, so students can only be dropped off from 8:30 am onwards. >In 1974, we were allowed to cut lessons to watch general election >results coming in - but then, our teachers may have been under the >illusion that that was an educational exercise rather than the >sportive one it truly was. Can I be really crass and ask what grade you were in? I'm curious as to whether it was primary or secondary school. Now, how many of you actually *did* watch the election results...and was there cricket on at the same time, by chance? ;) Come to think of it, why were the results coming in during school time rather than in the evening? And did Peter Snow have his blessed Swing-o-metre back then already? Mary Ann (who's glad she helps out in Beth's class on Thursdays!) _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Tue Jun 11 17:34:15 2002 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 17:34:15 -0000 Subject: 1974 election - skates dangerously close to politics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Me: > >In 1974, we were allowed to cut lessons to watch general election > >results coming in - but then, our teachers may have been under the > >illusion that that was an educational exercise rather than the > >sportive one it truly was. Mary Ann > > Can I be really crass and ask what grade you were in? I'm curious as to whether it was primary or secondary school. (Leans on stick, puts teeth in) Can you speak up! You young people mumble so much these days! I was in the lower sixth form: the laziest point in the whole school system (though university 2nd year was lazier). I was 15. Now, how many of you actually > *did* watch the election results...and was there cricket on at the same > time, by chance? ;) The one television was in a room just off the main hall - it would have been difficult to switch it over to anything else - yes, we watched the election. Come to think of it, why were the results coming in > during school time rather than in the evening? This was the February election and, yes, many results were in, but they were less slick in the collecting and counting then, and much of the country, particularly Scotland, was covered in snow, slowing the collection of boxes. I think the Western Isles and suchlike seats didn't declare until the Saturday (UK elections always take place on a Thursday). The outcome was in doubt until very late in the process, as Harold Wilson got a wafer-thin majority (if that), the remote seats tend to be the most unpredictable (eg 4 way Lab/Lib/Con/Scot Nat marginal at the time, though the Con vote has since imploded), and there were a number of wild card candidates who had fallen off the right wing of the Labour party: the forerunners of the process that led via the failure of the SDP to New Labour and Tony Blair. So it really did have some of the excitement of a sporting occasion for kids with only a dim grasp of how the result might affect our lives. > And did Peter Snow have his > blessed Swing-o-metre back then already? Probably, though I don't remember it. 1974 was an interesting year for news... Portugal's revolution, Nixon's resignation, the fall of the colonels in Greece (bad for Cyprus though)... David From Ali at zymurgy.org Tue Jun 11 19:48:37 2002 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (alhewison) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 19:48:37 -0000 Subject: Go England? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "Mary Jennings" wrote: > As some of you may know, England plays Nigeria in the world football > championships tomorrow morning GMT. On that note, my daughter came home > from primary school with a letter to all parents. Here are snippets of it: > > "I am writing to let you know how this school will be operating tomorrow > morning in response to many requests from parents and pupils. School will > open as normal for pupils and we expect all children to be in by 8:50 am > [normal opening time]...[w]e appreciate that many families are very > interested in the [football] but some are not at all!". > > What follows is a schedule stating that TVs will be set up in school so that students can watch the second half of the game if they wish to do so. > "School staff will supervise the watching of TV until the match ends when children will return to class and begin normal lessons. Unfortunately we do not have room for parents to stay". > > EH!? Parents stay? What the... > > The letter ends with the headteacher reinforcing that it is a normal school day, so uniforms are to be worn and face-painting and hair spraying will not be tolerated. Parents at my daughter's school were given letters stating that children were to attend school as normal: it would be too disruptive for those not watching the football to have other kids arriving throughout the morning. And no, no children will be able to watch the game in school. This letter was released in response to numerous requests to go to school late - and I suspect that alot of kids will turn up late anyway! This rulling means that I will miss the end of the game though! Ali > From tabouli at unite.com.au Tue Jun 11 03:31:55 2002 From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 13:31:55 +1000 Subject: Leaving for London! Message-ID: <000a01c210f8$8f3f0140$b122ddcb@price> bLuuuUrRgraaAAAAaaa.... Taxi to the airport is turning up in half an hour, and somehow, somehow, everything (except, inevitably, tidying the flat) is done. So exhausted at this point I might even break my record of never, ever having slept on a plane. Have fun everyone, and I'll be seeing some of you soon! Tabouli (who never quite got over that last minute thing...) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com Tue Jun 11 23:16:57 2002 From: virtualworldofhp at yahoo.com (virtualworldofhp) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 23:16:57 -0000 Subject: Leaving for London! In-Reply-To: <000a01c210f8$8f3f0140$b122ddcb@price> Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "Tabouli" wrote: > bLuuuUrRgraaAAAAaaa.... > > Taxi to the airport is turning up in half an hour, and somehow, somehow, everything (except, inevitably, tidying the flat) is done. So exhausted at this point I might even break my record of never, ever having slept on a plane. Have fun everyone, and I'll be seeing some of you soon! > > Tabouli (who never quite got over that last minute thing...) Oooo, good luck! I don't know if you've ever been before, but London is simply FABULOUS to a new tourist. :D As is England. Generally great country, that is. hehe ;) -Megan From s_ings at yahoo.com Wed Jun 12 12:27:56 2002 From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 08:27:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Happy Birthday, Jim! Message-ID: <20020612122756.6572.qmail@web14608.mail.yahoo.com> *sets yet another cake on our side table, surrounding with cards and gifts and sits down beside a pile of balloons and starts inflating them* Today's birthday honouree is our very own Moderator Emeritus, Jim Flanagan. Birthday greetings can be sent to this list or directly to Jim at: jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu Happy Birthday, Jim! Wishing a day of magic, butterbeer and chocolate frogs! Sheryll ===== "We need to be united and strong. We'll have losses and scares, sure. And you'll be there for each other, helping each other through the bad times." blpurdom - Harry Potter and the Psychic Serpent, Chapter 26 ______________________________________________________________________ Movies, Music, Sports, Games! http://entertainment.yahoo.ca From anglinsbees at yahoo.com Wed Jun 12 12:42:20 2002 From: anglinsbees at yahoo.com (anglinsbees) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 12:42:20 -0000 Subject: For the Punny Minded Message-ID: This came to me while writing a house elf post for the Naginis Kiss role Playing Game ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/naginis_kiss/ ) If Harry Potter went searching for the room full of china that Dumbledore metioned in 'Goblet of Fire', would that story be called "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secret Pots"? Da-Da-Dum. Ok- So I thought it was funny! Ellen, A Pottering Beekeeper From bray.262 at osu.edu Wed Jun 12 13:53:27 2002 From: bray.262 at osu.edu (Rachel Bray) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 13:53:27 +0000 (EST5EDT) Subject: dumb rumors going around.... Message-ID: <15F4E03765@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu> President Bush is going to be the speaker at graduation here Friday. You would not believe the security that's going on right now. And all the rumors! Geesh! My office is right next to the stadium (where grad is being held) and so there are so many people saying they're calling off Friday because they're worried we're going to be bombed. *rolling my eyes* I'm just worried about parking. The street in front of our office is going to be closed and the parking by the stadium is off limits so who knows where we're supposed to park. Shows you where MY priorities lie. :-) I'm looking forward to Friday, though. This will be the sixth president I've heard speak in person. It's my goal to hear every president in office while I'm alive. So far so good. (Course...I was only 2 when I heard Ford speak but still...) Oh! The other stupid rumor is that our offices will be under a "lock-down", no one in or out while the President is going to/in/and coming from the stadium. Give me a break! Rachel Bray The Ohio State University Fees, Deposits and Disbursements LORD OF THE SNITCH Three men form the chaser-squad under the sky Seven are the teammates on their brooms of wood Two are Bludger balls charmed to fly One is the dork Ref all on his own On the field of Quidditch where the Quaffles lie. One Snitch flits over all, one grab will win it One game may take three months, or may take but a minute On the field of Quidditch where the Quaffles lie. http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 12 20:35:19 2002 From: witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com (Wanda the Witch) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 13:35:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Happy Birthday, Jim! In-Reply-To: <20020612122756.6572.qmail@web14608.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20020612203519.29144.qmail@web13704.mail.yahoo.com> Sheryll Townsend wrote: Today's birthday honouree is our very own Moderator Emeritus, Jim Flanagan. Birthday greetings can be sent to this list or directly to Jim at: jamesf at alumni.caltech.edu Happy Birthday, Jim! Wishing a day of magic, butterbeer and chocolate frogs! Sheryll Well we will certainly want to be in this celebration! Hope your wish comes true when you blow out the candles!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Enjoy your special day and have tons of fun and hope you get some Harry Potter goodies too! HAPPY BIRTHDAY JIM! Schnoogles, Wanda the Witch of Revere,Massachusetts and Her Very Merry Band of Muggles 100% "When you come to the edge of all the light you know, and are about to step off into the darkness of the unknown, faith is knowing one of two things will happen; There will be something solid to stand on, or you will be taught how to fly."......Unknown. --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Sign-up for Video Highlights of 2002 FIFA World Cup [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From boggles at earthlink.net Fri Jun 14 04:05:40 2002 From: boggles at earthlink.net (Jennifer Boggess Ramon) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 23:05:40 -0500 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] I've been cheated! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 2:22 AM +0000 6/11/02, catlady_de_los_angeles wrote: > >And Tim couldn't make the eclipse image come through a little hole in >one paper onto another paper (or wall, or floor....). He claimed that >technique had worked for him in the past. I got my pinhole camera to work, but not well - too many clouds close to the horizon. The best I got to see was about a 30% bite out of the solar disc. The last partial eclipse we had was in the middle of the afternoon on a school day, just as I was heading home on public transportation. The other riders on the bus couldn't figure out what this crazy lady was doing with those two blank index cards and the window . . . ;) -- - Boggles, aka J. C. B. Ramon boggles at earthlink.net === Personal Growth Geek Code v0.4 === GG++ !T A-- M++s--- g+ B- C- P++++ a- b- h+ her++ E+ N n++ i f+ c++ S%++++&&># D R++ xc++ xm+ xi+ yd++ ys++(-) rt+ ro+ rp++++ rjk<+ ow+++ ofn+ oft++ op++ esk-- ey+ ek+++ pl++ pf++ pe++ U! From zulyblue at yahoo.com Fri Jun 14 13:45:24 2002 From: zulyblue at yahoo.com (zulyblue) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 06:45:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: losing weight In-Reply-To: <20020522174349.87149.qmail@web9505.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20020614134524.53489.qmail@web20010.mail.yahoo.com> Hello! I don't post very much, but I'm always lurking in the background. Its been kind of quiet lately so I thought I might venture in again. Actually, I'm really here because I want to tell everyone I know (and even people I don't know, but after lurking for 7 months I feel like I know a lot of you even if you've never heard of me!) that as of yesterday I have lost 60 pounds so far!! So, I was wondering, is anyone else out there dieting (or excuse me, changing their lifestyle) successfully or trying to? Zulyblue ===== Favorite song of the moment We sat around the table and we drank a bottle of wine and it poured around us like a moat till no one could get us and I was fine.... The Nields - Easy People __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com From jdumas at kingwoodcable.com Fri Jun 14 14:08:42 2002 From: jdumas at kingwoodcable.com (Katze) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 09:08:42 -0500 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] losing weight References: <20020614134524.53489.qmail@web20010.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3D09F8EA.6090106@kingwoodcable.com> Hi! Congratulations on the weight loss! What a wonderful thing! Are you going shopping or getting something nice as a reward for all of your hard work? I am trying to lose some weight. I want to lose about 25 lbs, but I believe I'm already hitting a plateau. I've started exercising though - 1hr biking M-F, 30 minutes on the weekends, so I'm wondering if building muscle is offsetting the number on the scale. I've decided to take my measuremtns as well. If the muscle gain is offsetting the scale, then I have another way to measure. I've done more exercise in the past 3 weeks than I have in 3 months, so I'm wondering if my muscle are holding on to extra water. Anyone know how this works? Take care! -Katze zulyblue wrote: > Hello! > > I don't post very much, but I'm always lurking in the > background. Its been kind of quiet lately so I > thought I might venture in again. > > Actually, I'm really here because I want to tell > everyone I know (and even people I don't know, but > after lurking for 7 months I feel like I know a lot of > you even if you've never heard of me!) that as of > yesterday I have lost 60 pounds so far!! So, I was > wondering, is anyone else out there dieting (or excuse > me, changing their lifestyle) successfully or trying > to? > > Zulyblue > > > > ===== > Favorite song of the moment > > We sat around the table and we drank a bottle of wine > and it poured around us like a moat > till no one could get us and I was fine.... > > The Nields - Easy People > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup > http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com > > > ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ > > Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the group's Admin Files! > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/ > > Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! > > Is your message... > An announcement of merchandise, news etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. > Movie-related? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. > Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. > None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. > Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com > > Unsubscribing? Email HPFGU-OTChatter-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > ____________________________________________________________ > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From cindysphynx at comcast.net Fri Jun 14 14:23:40 2002 From: cindysphynx at comcast.net (cindysphynx) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 14:23:40 -0000 Subject: losing weight In-Reply-To: <20020614134524.53489.qmail@web20010.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: ZulyBlue wrote: > Actually, I'm really here because I want to tell > everyone I know (and even people I don't know, but > after lurking for 7 months I feel like I know a lot of > you even if you've never heard of me!) that as of > yesterday I have lost 60 pounds so far!! So, I was > wondering, is anyone else out there dieting (or excuse > me, changing their lifestyle) successfully or trying > to? Katze added: > I am trying to lose some weight. I want to lose about 25 lbs, but >I believe I'm already hitting a plateau. I've started exercising >though - 1hr biking M-F, 30 minutes on the weekends, so I'm >wondering if building muscle is offsetting the number on the scale. Congratulations, ZulyBlue and Katze! That's awesome news! Add me to the club. I'm down 30 pounds over 3 years of generally pulling it together and doing some serious and consistent exercise. Katze, my experience has been that building muscle will keep the number on the scale a bit higher than you might like. But over the long haul, if you pay attention to intake, the pounds come off very slowly. In the meantime, you get to be buff, which if kind of fun all by itself! Cindy (wondering where on earth Katze found a comfortable bike seat) From saitaina at wizzards.net Fri Jun 14 14:26:19 2002 From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 07:26:19 -0700 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] losing weight References: <20020614134524.53489.qmail@web20010.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <005a01c213af$74223a80$044e28d1@oemcomputer> Zulyblue wrote: Congratulations on that love! Always hard to lose weight. Sadly not me, I'm currently happy with who I am (though occasionally I wish I was littler). Katze wrote: Congrats on your 25 lbs. Plateau's are always hard but easily overcomed with work. Saitaina ***** Cordelia: It's kinda like a puzzle -- the Who Died Horribly Because Angel Screwed Up 50 Years Ago Game? Denver: They keep calling her a zany redhead. Could be a brunette for all I can tell. Guess I'll just have to take their word for it. Angel: It's been a long time since I've opened a vein, but I'll do it you pull any more of that Van Helsing Jr. crap with me. Are we clear? Thesulac: There's an entire hotel here just full of tortured souls who could really use your help. Whaddya say? Angel: Take 'em all. Wesley: I've been accused of a great many things in my time, but paranoid has never been one of them. Unless people have been saying it behind my back. -"Are you no or have you ever been" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bray.262 at osu.edu Fri Jun 14 11:02:37 2002 From: bray.262 at osu.edu (Rachel Bray) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 11:02:37 +0000 (EST5EDT) Subject: Losing weight Message-ID: <128FEE67AC@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu> I'm CONSTANTLY on a diet. But just recently I've added aerobics. After my divorce I gained almost 75 pounds. I'm now in the mindset to GET IT OFF and START LIFE OVER. It's taken me many years to get to this mindset but I'm thankful I'm finally here. The weight hasn't come off easily. As a matter of fact, I've only lost 11 pounds in three months. I even looked into having one of the operations done but, to my great surprise, I was told I didn't weigh enough. Never in my life have I been TOO THIN for something. I almost laughed and said "Fine, I'll go gain 50 more pounds. Be back later." (a fine Homer Simpson moment if ever there was one). But, instead, I've opted for exercise and cutting back on my bad foods. (I mentioned earlier that I have an ice cream fetish.....VERY hard to cut back on that one.) I feel so alone, though. I hang around very slim people with beautiful figures and beautiful significant others. It makes me depressed at times. I used to be a knock-out. Now I'm just a Schmoo with split ends and dry skin. :-) Congrats on your weight loss! It's truly something to be immensely proud of. Rachel Bray The Ohio State University Fees, Deposits and Disbursements LORD OF THE SNITCH Three men form the chaser-squad under the sky Seven are the teammates on their brooms of wood Two are Bludger balls charmed to fly One is the dork Ref all on his own On the field of Quidditch where the Quaffles lie. One Snitch flits over all, one grab will win it One game may take three months, or may take but a minute On the field of Quidditch where the Quaffles lie. http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From bray.262 at osu.edu Fri Jun 14 11:09:33 2002 From: bray.262 at osu.edu (Rachel Bray) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 11:09:33 +0000 (EST5EDT) Subject: The President Message-ID: <12AD651731@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu> Well, I just got back from the stadium from hearing President Bush speak. It was a beautiful speech. Truly one of the best I've ever heard from anyone. It was about volunteerism and community service. He also had some great funny lines about OSU beating Michigan last year in football (our biggest rival) and how he congratulates the parents of the graduates for writing their last tuition check because he was still writing them himself. ha ha (then again, I thought, if his daughters get into any more trouble they may not be in school much longer!) Then as I was leaving to walk back here to my office, I got to stand by and watch him get into his car and leave in the ENORMOUS motorcade. Good grief, there were a lot of cars. I counted 16 police cars/motorcycles alone! Geesh! Rachel Bray The Ohio State University Fees, Deposits and Disbursements LORD OF THE SNITCH Three men form the chaser-squad under the sky Seven are the teammates on their brooms of wood Two are Bludger balls charmed to fly One is the dork Ref all on his own On the field of Quidditch where the Quaffles lie. One Snitch flits over all, one grab will win it One game may take three months, or may take but a minute On the field of Quidditch where the Quaffles lie. http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Fri Jun 14 18:19:32 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (grey_wolf_c) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 18:19:32 -0000 Subject: losing weight In-Reply-To: <3D09F8EA.6090106@kingwoodcable.com> Message-ID: Katze wrote: I've started exercising though - > 1hr biking M-F, 30 minutes on the weekends, so I'm wondering if > building muscle is offsetting the number on the scale. I've decided > to take my measuremtns as well. If the muscle gain is offsetting the > scale, then I have another way to measure. > > I've done more exercise in the past 3 weeks than I have in 3 months, > so I'm wondering if my muscle are holding on to extra water. Anyone > know how this works? > > Take care! > -Katze Building muscle puts on weight, but it's a correct sort of weight since it's muscle, which is heavier than fat, and much more compact. When I start doing bike exercises, my weight normally goes up (to near 84 kg), but I look thiner (and more fit) than when I'm on a normal diet and not feeling overweight (74 kg). I normally decide it's time to start exercising when I hit 80 kg without doing exercise, at which point I either cut down radically my sources of food (hunger is not really a problem for me), do exercise or (normally) both. At any rate, biking while end up consuming more kg of fat than it will create of muscle, so your weight will go down gently but steadily. I normally stop doing bike when I reach 70 kg (my bottom security level, just as 80 is my top security level). If anyone cares, I'm now in a simple short food rations plans, since is too hot for biking and I tend to dehidrate when I do exercise in this weather. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From zulyblue at yahoo.com Fri Jun 14 20:42:49 2002 From: zulyblue at yahoo.com (zulyblue) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 13:42:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] losing weight In-Reply-To: <005a01c213af$74223a80$044e28d1@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <20020614204249.48196.qmail@web20009.mail.yahoo.com> Thanks for the support! Katze- Keep going with the biking. It will definitely pay off in the long run especially if you cut down on the calories a little at the same time. Muscle is heavier, but it also burns more calories so its a plus to have more. Plus as Cindy said, You get to be Buff! I'm all for buff...I've been walking and playing tennis and racquetball. Ok..so I ave a ways to go before I can be called buff, but I've found muscles that I never knew were there! Cindy- Congrats! 30 pounds is great! Slow is they way to lose it and keep it off. If only I was more patient! My goal is to lose 125 lbs total and it can't happen soon enough for me. Saitaina- Thanks! I know the feeling and I'm glad you are happy with yourself. That's really the most important thing. I was happy and never dieted before, but then I got a bit of a shock when my heavy parents (who gave me my horrendous eating habits!) started to lose weight and I was suddenly the same size as my mom who was always much heavier than me. That got the competitive juices flowing which was the motivation I needed. Rachel- Aerobics, I'm impressed! Having the right mindset is the most important things. I'm doing Weight Watchers and started the first of the year. I really really wish I started earlier, but I just wasn't ready and didn't have the motivation. Have you considered WW? I know it doesn't work for everyone (and I think the meetings are well, lame), but after a few weeks of adjustment, its been very EASY! I even managed to get my Ben and Jerry's habit under control! I'm glad you didn't go with the operation. You CAN do it on your own without the risk of major surgery! IMHO, its far too radical unless it is your only option, but I understand how tempting it is. I know how you feel about hanging out with beautiful skinny people all the time. It can be depressing, but I'm sure they have their own hang-ups and don't think they look as good as you think they do. We are all our own worst critics. Wow, I've used far too many exclamation points in this post, but at least I held back on the smiley faces. Zulyblue __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com From s_ings at yahoo.com Sat Jun 15 13:26:52 2002 From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend) Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 09:26:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Another June birthday! Message-ID: <20020615132652.98466.qmail@web14602.mail.yahoo.com> *skips in tossing confetti around the room, stops, wonders who will clean this mess up after the party is over* Does it matter who cleans up? The celebration is the important part. Today's birthday honouree is Benny Hill's Angel. Birthday may be sent care of this list. May the day be filled with much magic and an abundance of fun. Happy Birthday, Benny Hill's Angel! Sheryll ===== "We need to be united and strong. We'll have losses and scares, sure. And you'll be there for each other, helping each other through the bad times." blpurdom - Harry Potter and the Psychic Serpent, Chapter 26 ______________________________________________________________________ Post your ad for free now! http://personals.yahoo.ca From witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 15 13:33:29 2002 From: witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com (Wanda the Witch) Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 06:33:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Happy Birthday Benny Hill's Angel In-Reply-To: <20020615132652.98466.qmail@web14602.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20020615133329.18007.qmail@web13703.mail.yahoo.com> Sheryll Townsend wrote: Today's birthday honouree is Benny Hill's Angel. Birthday may be sent care of this list. May the day be filled with much magic and an abundance of fun. Happy Birthday, Benny Hill's Angel! Sheryll ===== HAPPY BIRTHDAY BENNY HILL'S ANGEL! Alright! May it be as much fun as watching many Benny Hill videos! Have to add that it be magical as much as HP! May you get your wish on this special day and you get plenty of HP and Benny Hill goodies! Love the episode of him behind the tree with the bucket with two holes in it! LOL! Schnoogles, Wanda the Witch of Revere,Massachusetts and Her Very Merry Band of Muggles 100% "When you come to the edge of all the light you know, and are about to step off into the darkness of the unknown, faith is knowing one of two things will happen; There will be something solid to stand on, or you will be taught how to fly."......Unknown. --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Sign-up for Video Highlights of 2002 FIFA World Cup [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From saitaina at wizzards.net Sat Jun 15 14:47:56 2002 From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina) Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 07:47:56 -0700 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Another June birthday! References: <20020615132652.98466.qmail@web14602.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002201c2147b$a376ccc0$604e28d1@oemcomputer> *leans heavily on her broom, prepared to clean up the damned confetti* Please tell me there are no more birthdays this month... Happy Birthday Benny Hill's Angel! May you get the Every Flavor Beans of your choice and no sweat socks ruin it! Saitaina *vaguely pushing at the confetti with her broom before giving up and running off* ***** Cordelia: It's kinda like a puzzle -- the Who Died Horribly Because Angel Screwed Up 50 Years Ago Game? Denver: They keep calling her a zany redhead. Could be a brunette for all I can tell. Guess I'll just have to take their word for it. Angel: It's been a long time since I've opened a vein, but I'll do it you pull any more of that Van Helsing Jr. crap with me. Are we clear? Thesulac: There's an entire hotel here just full of tortured souls who could really use your help. Whaddya say? Angel: Take 'em all. Wesley: I've been accused of a great many things in my time, but paranoid has never been one of them. Unless people have been saying it behind my back. -"Are you no or have you ever been" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lupinesque at yahoo.com Sat Jun 15 17:05:29 2002 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (lupinesque) Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 17:05:29 -0000 Subject: Another June birthday! In-Reply-To: <002201c2147b$a376ccc0$604e28d1@oemcomputer> Message-ID: Saitaina... ...> *leans heavily on her broom, prepared to clean up the damned confetti* Please tell me there are no more birthdays this month... There's gotta be a spell for that. Anyone know how to say confetti in Latin? Happy birthday, BHA! Amy From meboriqua at aol.com Sat Jun 15 17:46:35 2002 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw) Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 17:46:35 -0000 Subject: Amy Z's Birthday Tomorrow! Message-ID: I am not usually the best birthday keeper upper, but I just had to be the one who started the birthday wishes for Amy Z. She is one of the nicest and funniest people here and a fellow geist now to boot. If I could Apparate to Vermont tomorrow with a big gooey cake and balloons, I'd do it in a second. Happy Birthday, Amy Zebirthdaygeist! I hope you get many lovely Harry Potter gifts (and your letter of acceptance as the next DADA professor at Hogwarts). --jenny from ravenclaw, who is soon actually going to be meeting Amy Z and is unnaturally excited about it ************************* From witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 15 21:56:06 2002 From: witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com (Wanda the Witch) Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 14:56:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Amy Z's Birthday Tomorrow! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020615215606.56238.qmail@web13704.mail.yahoo.com> jenny_ravenclaw wrote: Happy Birthday, Amy Zebirthdaygeist! I hope you get many lovely Harry Potter gifts (and your letter of acceptance as the next DADA professor at Hogwarts). --jenny from ravenclaw, who is soon actually going to be meeting Amy Z and is unnaturally excited about it! Hey, hey, hey! We are all in favor of this! HAPPY BIRTHDAY AMY Z! Hope she does get plenty of HP goodies! Amy, have a great day tomorrow and may you get all your wishes! I agree with Jenny from Ravenclaw in hoping you are the next DADA! Have fun! Schnoogles, Wanda the Witch of Revere,Massachusetts and Her Very Merry Band of Muggles 100% "When you come to the edge of all the light you know, and are about to step off into the darkness of the unknown, faith is knowing one of two things will happen; There will be something solid to stand on, or you will be taught how to fly."......Unknown. --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Sign-up for Video Highlights of 2002 FIFA World Cup [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From macloudt at hotmail.com Sat Jun 15 22:32:35 2002 From: macloudt at hotmail.com (Mary Jennings) Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 22:32:35 +0000 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Amy Z's Birthday Tomorrow! Message-ID: Ravenclaw's Jenny said: >I am not usually the best birthday keeper upper, but I just had to be >the one who started the birthday wishes for Amy Z. She is one of the >nicest and funniest people here Absolutely! Happy birthday, DADA Professor Amy, and may you be showered with HP goodies. I'll just send you my best wishes because a birthday cake will go all squashy and skanky in transit across the ocean ;) Schnoogles, Mary Ann (who reminds Amy that any present containing an Alan Rickman lookalike has to be shared) _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com From drednort at alphalink.com.au Sun Jun 16 10:10:29 2002 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 20:10:29 +1000 Subject: Gifted stuff, again! In-Reply-To: <20020615215606.56238.qmail@web13704.mail.yahoo.com> References: Message-ID: <3D0CF0B5.8312.5D91D7@localhost> Bringing this across from the main group. On 6 Jun 2002 at 13:20, davewitley wrote: > We have been having a spirited discussion over on OT-Chatter about > the measurement of intelligence, and the best way of educating > profoundly gifted (PG) children, who may roughly be characterised as > the top 1 in 5000 on the IQ scale (properly defined). > One thing that struck me about the discussion was the number of HPFGU > people (certainly much more than 0.02% of the list membership) who > were able to identify with the experience of PG children. It is of > course not possible to identify which list members fit the criterion > precisely. I wondered if there was any connection. > So: is there something about HP which attracts people who are very > gifted, or perhaps feel they do not fit in with the educational > system as they find it? Vulgarweed's post suggests an obvious > possibility. But don't we all to an extent feel that way? Is that > any different from the appeal to the other hundred million Harry > fans, who can all take Harry's magic as a metaphor for their own > individuality and giftedness in the wider sense? The following are a coupl of thoughts on if, and why, Harry Potter appeals to gifted children. I have others as well - but lack the time to write them all down now. It's something that has been discussed on various gifted discussion forums for quite some time now. It's hard to be precise but Harry Potter was a big thing in the gifted community almost the instant it was released - I saw discussion of the Philosopher's Stone on gifted discussion lists well before I saw it elsewhere. In fact, I started reading the Philosopher's Stone because some of the kids I mentor were raving about it, well before I had heard of it anywhere else - I had to search it out, bookshops hadn't heard of it yet (-8 - I read it, thought it was OK, but nothing spectacular, put it away on a shelf and forgot about it - later on, when I saw more raving, I went out and bought Philosopher's Stone and Chamber of Secrets from a bookshop, and was slightly puzzled as to why the first book seemed so familiar. (-8 This post is also serving as notes for an article I may be writing on this for a gifted magazine. The appeal of the novels is obviously very wide, certainly not limited to gifted kids. But I do think there are some reasons why certain aspects of the books especially appeal to many gifted kids. Not all - these kids are not an homogenous group with identical interests - not universally. Many of the reasons these books appeal to gifted kids are obviously the same as many other kids - well written stories, etc. So I'm just going to look at a couple of specific reasons these books might have a special appeal to the gifted - this is not to say they wouldn't appeal to others for the same reasons as well. I'm looking at general tendencies not absolute. Hermione. I have to put her first. Here we have a character who is smart, and doesn't seem to be afraid to show it. Indeed her intelligence is a very significant part of her character. As many children tend to like books that have characters they can identify with, Hermione's presence is something that a lot of gifted children do relate to. Especially as Hermione is not a one trick pony. She isn't defined by her intelligence alone. She is courageous, resourceful, etc. She is multidimensional - not a stereotype. She also faces a problem of not fitting in - and is isolated because of it. Unfortunately, this too is something that many gifted children can relate to. Hermione's intellect is not shown as being a wonderful gift with no negatives attached to it. We see the negatives - we also see that she is able to overcome them, and that her friends - true friends - will see past the superficial first impressions to the real person underneath. For a gifted child in a situation where they lack friends - as it all too common - this can be very comforting. Hogwarts. One of the biggest problems faced by gifted children can be inappropriate schooling. Education that is not matched to their very special educational needs. And then we have Hogwarts - a school that is, very much, matched to a very special educational need for a very special group - Witches and Wizards. In Hogwarts, we see a school that is very much based around educating children to reach their potential, albeit in a very specific field. A school which has teachers of the calibre of Albus Dumbledore and Minerva McGonnagal. Where teachers seem to know their stuff (even Snape, with all his faults, seems to be a genuine expert in his field) - DADA teachers and nutty Divination professors, aside. A school which is designed to address students needs, where academic achievement is worthy of praise (along with other achievements) and not something which is considered suspect, where there are competent and caring teachers... given how rare these things can be for many gifted kids, is it any wonder that Hogwarts has a special appeal. Speaking for myself, as someone who endured utterly inappropriate schooling until age 12, and then finally just after I turned 13 found myself in an environment that even partly met my needs, and felt like I had gone to heaven, I see great parallels with Harry finding Hogwarts. To finally find somewhere where you belong after years of not fitting in everywhere - what bliss - and no wonder the idea might appeal. Now Harry's case is unusually bad - he doesn't even have a loving home - so the feeling of finding home planet must be even stronger for him. But it does appeal - it must have a special appeal to children who for whatever reason do not feel they fit into their schools. Whether that's from giftedness or something else. Davewitley: > If not, is there something about HPFGU which appeals to the very > gifted? (I think answers to this may have to go back OT) I think both could apply. I'm on a lot of e-mail lists - over 50. I tend to join them in the hope of finding intelligent conversation - something I can get my teeth into. HPFGU, and its sub lists, certainly fits. People who join these lists want to do more than just read - there's nothing wrong with just reading, but they want more for some reason. And they get it through these lists. And considering how many lists devoted to HP, there are, those who come to HPFGU don't just want basic discussion - they want depth and breadth. They get it. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately |webpage: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) |email: drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil | Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Sun Jun 16 14:08:52 2002 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley) Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 14:08:52 -0000 Subject: Amy Z's Birthday Tomorrow! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jenny, speaking for us all, I guess: > I just had to be the one who started the birthday wishes for Amy Z. She is one of the nicest and funniest people here and a fellow geist now to boot. If I could Apparate to Vermont tomorrow with a big gooey cake and balloons, I'd do it in a second. > > Happy Birthday, Amy Zebirthdaygeist! I hope you get many lovely Harry Potter gifts (and your letter of acceptance as the next DADA professor at Hogwarts). Happy birthday, Amy! Good job you didn't master that confetti spell. > --jenny from ravenclaw, who is soon actually going to be meeting Amy Z and is unnaturally excited about it Have a good meet! David the envious From rhiannon333 at hotmail.com Sun Jun 16 16:58:48 2002 From: rhiannon333 at hotmail.com (rhiannon333au) Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 16:58:48 -0000 Subject: Amy Z's Birthday Tomorrow! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: *sprinkles confetti* *hands around butterbeers and hors d'oevres* *clears throat and starts to sing* Happy Birthday to you! Happy Birthday to you! Happy birthday dear Amy... The last line is drowned out by groans of listeners at the cacaphony. Sincere nonetheless! Have a wonderful birthday! Megan From lupinesque at yahoo.com Sun Jun 16 17:31:14 2002 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (lupinesque) Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 17:31:14 -0000 Subject: thanks! Message-ID: for all the birthday wishes, butterbeer, confetti, etc. I feel all warm and fuzzy. I am having a lovely day which I hope will get lovelier with a dinner out at my favorite restaurant. I would be thrilled to be at Hogwarts and await that DADA appointment with excitement, but I confess I'm a bit nervous about ending up dead, Ever So Evil, or both before the year's out. What do you suppose are the chances I get lucky and join my dear Lupin in the very exclusive Living (with soul and memory intact) Ex-DADA Professors Club? Amy From huntleyl at mssm.org Mon Jun 17 03:20:35 2002 From: huntleyl at mssm.org (Laura Ingalls Huntley) Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 23:20:35 -0400 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Gifted stuff, again! References: <3D0CF0B5.8312.5D91D7@localhost> Message-ID: <011501c215ad$f2f28220$12ccedd1@Huntley> Shaun said: >The following are a coupl of thoughts on if, and why, Harry Potter appeals to gifted >children. Well...Harry Potter seems to appeal to *all* children generally...Also, the HPforGrownups list probably isn't the most unbiased sample space. I mean, I classify myself as a book junkie. Most (although certainly not all) of the gifted kids I know are also book junkies. And, so sorry to generalize...anyone who is an active participant in this list is most likely also of the book junkie variety *ducks* I don't mean to call names here, but there it is. So I guess I see a natural connection between being a junkie/HP fan on this list and being gifted. >It's hard to be precise but Harry Potter was a big thing in the gifted >community almost the instant it was released - I saw discussion of the Philosopher's >Stone on gifted discussion lists well before I saw it elsewhere. This also seems perfectly natural to me -- *cough* smart *cough* kids are obviously going to be the first to pick up on the wonderousness of HP. They're more likely to try the books when they hit the shelves (cause they've already read everything else in the small-town bookstore near their house) and they are more likely to recognize the books as something special when they read it. >Hermione. I have to put her first. Here we have a character who is smart, and >doesn't seem to be afraid to show it. Indeed her intelligence is a very significant part >of her character. As many children tend to like books that have characters they can >identify with, Hermione's presence is something that a lot of gifted children do relate >to. Especially as Hermione is not a one trick pony. She isn't defined by her >intelligence alone. She is courageous, resourceful, etc. She is multidimensional - >not a stereotype. Yes. I love Hermione. *nuzzles* She's one of the few people I think I could really trust -- I mean, if she were real. As for identifying with her -- I definitely feel that. Not that we're exactly alike -- in alot of way we're complete opposites...but for some reason, something about her speaks to me. >She also faces a problem of not fitting in - and is isolated because >of it. And this is why I could trust her -- she is very, very strong. She doesn't crumble under peer pressure -- which isn't just some vague afflicition, BTW. It's a very real, very evil thing *glowers*. I can't count the number of people I've seen hurt other people or themselves in its name. And they don't even realize it. They just go about destroying each other and screwing themselves up in the process. It makes me sick to watch it. I wish everyone would just leave each other alone, you know?? And leave themselves alone. *is straying* Drat..okay..onwards. >Unfortunately, this too is something that many gifted children can relate to. >Hermione's intellect is not shown as being a wonderful gift with no negatives >attached to it. We see the negatives - we also see that she is able to overcome >them, and that her friends - true friends - will see past the superficial first >impressions to the real person underneath. For a gifted child in a situation where >they lack friends - as it all too common - this can be very comforting. ^_^ Very true. >I'm on a lot of e-mail lists - over 50. I tend to join them in the hope of finding >intelligent conversation - something I can get my teeth into. HPFGU, and its sub >lists, certainly fits. People who join these lists want to do more than just read - >there's nothing wrong with just reading, but they want more for some reason. And >they get it through these lists. ^_~ Which is why I love it so much here. I'm sick to death of trying to engage in useful debate on lists or message boards with people who would be just as happy to spend all their time posting things like "i luv hary potter soooooooooooo much i think he is 2 hott i want 2 have his babies" and getting into raging flame fights in which one party accuses the other of being a ****sucker and the other party retaliates with accussations of sexual inadequcies. Growl. Admittedly, my own punctuation sometimes leaves a bit to be desired... << Alright..this is an attempt to move this dangerously OT topic to the appropriate list before the mods *make* us move.. Ali said: >Another point I think is that British kids are still less >sophisticated than their American counterparts. *frowns* Do you mean in an emotional-maturity kind of way? Cause I can't really agree with you there at all. If you mean in a sexual way, however, I *can* see where you get this perception. American teens certainly have a big reputation for being very sexual at a very early age. Whether this reputation is well-earned or the product of a sexually saturated media -- that anyone's guess. Ali continued: >But, in every TV programme I see with American High School >kids, I always think that the kids seem much older than >British children of the same age. Well -- it's *TV*...I'll let you in on a secret...most of the "average American kids" portrayed on shows "about teens for teens" seem alot older than the RL average American kid. The shows are written by adults, the characters are played by adults -- I mean, how accurate of a portrayal of teenage life do you expect to get? Even if these grown-ups are well-meaning, they are still going to end up with a skewed perception of teenage-hood. Most of the teens you see on American television are either idealized or stylized -- or both. Perhaps British writers are better at getting in touch with their inner adolescent and therefore write more realistic teens? Darrin said: >Harry Potter, on the other hand, is nearly 14 before we get >a sense of him hitting puberty. To me, that's just one more >of the rules JKR has introduced. She's taken us back to a >time when the equivalent of American fifth- and sixth- >graders were not exploring their sexuality. *snorts* And when did this take place, pray tell? 500 B.C.? Honestly, I don't buy this whole "kids were more innocent back in the day" shtick. The sexuality expressed by the aforementioned fifth and sixth graders is not a "sign of the times" or something that is manufactured by the media. It's a natural and ordinary part of *every* person, no matter how old they are. Perhaps it wasn't as talked about or as socially acceptable back then (whatever time period you are indicating here), but it was *still* there. Just as people often think that adultery and premarital were less prevalent around the turn of the century (um...I mean, the late 1800's, early 1900's)..while nothing could be further from the truth...it just wasn't *talked about*..and it was basically okay with everyone as long as the woman didn't get pregnant -- or, if she did, as long as the man married her when she did. It kind of alarms me the way so many of the adults on this list try to deny the sexuality of young children...that fifth and sixth graders didn't express sexual feelings at one point in the recent past -- to me this seems --I'm sorry, Darrin -- downright absurd. I don't know whether to burst out laughing or be very concerned. The more I think about it, the more I realize that the memories I have of having feelings toward the opposite sex are some of the earliest that I have. I can't remember a time when I wasn't painfully aware of the fact that boys were different and that *meant* something. Also, it strikes me that trying take the sexuality out of childhood probably isn't a very healthy thing to do. It seems alot like denial and covering-up..which is always rather unhelpful. Why would anyone *want* to deny this aspect of childhood that is *a part of everyone* is beyond me. Is it dirty? No. Is it harmful? No. Is it natural and normal? A thousand times yes. So why does it make you people so uncomfortable? laura (who is feeling rather alarmed) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From huntleyl at mssm.org Mon Jun 17 18:24:44 2002 From: huntleyl at mssm.org (Laura Ingalls Huntley) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 14:24:44 -0400 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Semi-random gloating..and sadness *sigh* Message-ID: <001401c2162c$41cb2680$e1ccedd1@Huntley> ^_^ big grin. very big. Who got all A's on her report card? Yep. That's right. I did. *does a little dance*...Honestly, I was afraid I was going to get a C in math...turns out I'm even smarter than I thought..j/k ^_~. Considering I got mostly B's for the first semester..I don't know...big relief here. I don't like B's. *growl* They are funny-shaped. Actually, I surprised myself alot this last semester...something in Physics just clicked, you know? It was very nice. I wish I could take the calculus based course this year :(. If it weren't for stupid Leadership -- who needs leadership skills anyway? Me? Absolutely not. *coughs* Sorry to expose you all to my inane gloating..but I'm home alone with my younger siblings and trying to gloat at them is *really* unsatisfying. They just start yelling at me for blocking the television. *sigh* Sadness. Thinking of sadness...and school...:( I'm so alone here. It's especially bad at night, you know? Everyone else sleeps two stories above me and it's SO alone down here. I mean, on one hand, I really don't like to share my space with other people -- but on the other -- I'm used to having a roommate now, you know? And living with 150 other kids...and it's just. Grr. It's not fun. They've ruined my ability to enjoy being lonely. How dare they? ^_~ laura [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk Mon Jun 17 19:23:05 2002 From: kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk (Kathryn) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 20:23:05 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time) Subject: Bad Day, looking to vent Message-ID: <3D0E3719.000003.42753@monica> I have had a lousy day and I'm looking to vent my frustration by ranting at you guys - so feel free to ignore this. Also while sympathy would be appreciated, boy would it, I realise that the whole darn mess was my own fault and is probably pretty amusing in retrospect - not that I'm far enough away from the event to laugh yet but give it a few weeks .... Anyway for this to make sense I have to explain about where I live so bear with me. I live in a first floor flat over a shop. There is a main door from the street which is kept locked and can only be opened from the inside or the outside with a key. This opens on to a staircase which has a tiny landing at the top with two doors leading off it, one into my flat and one into my landlady's 2nd flat. Both these doors are fitted with yale locks so that when you shut the door it can only be opened with a key or from the inside. (btw my landlady lives in Spain most of the year and is uncontactable). Is there any smart arse out there who has seen the disaster in the making here? So guess what I did at 5pm this afternoon. I wanted to run out to the supermarket so I grabbed my bag, left the flat, slammed the door behind me, and it was at this point that I remembered that my keys were on the counter in the kitchen. So there I am stuck in this stairway - no way back into my flat or out on to the street, hottest day of the year so far, no ventilation Thank God for mobile phones is all I can say. So first I dialled the letting agents but since they aren't managing the flat they don't have a key So I rang my dad at work - just missed him he's on his way home. So i spent the next hour phoning home every 5 minutes trying to get hold of him and getting hotter and more stressed as time went on. 6pm I finally get hold of him. He suggested I phone the police which I did only to be told that they couldn't do anything and I was so low on their list of priorities that it would be several hours before they could turn up to do nothing anyway. (The police station is at the end of my road, 5 minutes walk away). By this time I was on the verge of hysteria so I phone home again. My father then phones the same police station to explain that I have a window open round the back and all I need is someone to break in. They suggest I phone a locksmith - which is great but I don't have the number of any local locksmith in my phone memory and my dad lives too far away to have a phone book with any local locksmiths. In desperation he phoned the fire brigade. 5 minutes later a fire engine complete with flashing lights turned up outside my front door - never have I been so relieved to see anyone in my life. One wonderful fireman called John chatted to me through the letter box in an attempt to calm me down and stop be from having some kind of panic attack. A second guy tried every house key he could steal from his buddies in a vain attempt to open the door (well it was worth a try I guess) and then went to try lifting the latch with a screwdriver. Meanwhile two of their colleagues went round the back to try and get through the window. Finally at five to seven one of them got in and opened my flat door from the inside so I could receive my keys and open the main door. The fireman pretty much ordered my to get spare keys cut to leave in the lobby in case of a fire, something I will be doing tomorrow morning. Having got out into the air the panic rapidly became embarassment since the whole street seemed to be taking a keen interest (presumably due to the large red fire engine blocking the street). The firemen were all very sweet about it. Of course by this stage the supermarket was shut but I really didn't care any more. All I wanted was a long cold drink and then to get back into my flat and hide for a few days! Anyway, still stressed but recovering! K From editor at texas.net Mon Jun 17 19:34:05 2002 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 14:34:05 -0500 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Semi-random gloating..and sadness *sigh* References: <001401c2162c$41cb2680$e1ccedd1@Huntley> Message-ID: <001901c21635$f25798e0$a07763d1@texas.net> Laura said > Who got all A's on her report card? My daughter Kasia! The final grades for First Grade, all As (and S's, one E)! And she worked for them--it wasn't a coast through. We made a big deal of it, I've been meaning to brag about her online. She asked if I told my Harry Potter people about it. Congratulations to you, too, Laura--it ain't easy at any level. Good job. > I don't like B's. *growl* They are funny-shaped. *unhappy sigh* Then I must be funny-shaped too--B looks remarkably like my body profile (except I don't always stand up that straight). > *coughs* Sorry to expose you all to my inane gloating..but I'm home alone with my younger siblings and trying to gloat at them is *really* unsatisfying. They just start yelling at me for blocking the television. *sigh* Sadness. Wait until you're home alone with young children. *They* climb on you and drool on you and chew on your clothes and make you say things you never, ever thought would come out of your mouth (Don't swing him by the eyeballs! Stop chewing on the snake! Don't lick your sister! etc.) --Amanda, who will ship her kids off to Joy tomorrow if it would relieve her loneliness. All of them. I'll pack clothes. They can stay a while. Just let me know. From Ali at zymurgy.org Mon Jun 17 19:49:31 2002 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (alhewison) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 19:49:31 -0000 Subject: Maturity of kids in the Potterverse (moved from main list) In-Reply-To: <002001c21607$e1e29420$d2ccedd1@Huntley> Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "Laura Ingalls Huntley" wrote: > Alright..this is an attempt to move this dangerously OT topic to the appropriate list before the mods *make* us move.. > > Ali said: > >Another point I think is that British kids are still less > >sophisticated than their American counterparts. > > *frowns* Do you mean in an emotional-maturity kind of way? Cause I can't really agree with you there at all. > > If you mean in a sexual way, however, I *can* see where you get this perception. American teens certainly have a big reputation for being very sexual at a very early age. I do mean in a sexual way, but also - and please note this is my perception - they act like "adults" at a younger age. They seem to have thrown off the yoke of parental guidelines a little earlier. (Again, opinion based on misleading TV programmes).In terms of emotional-maturity, I actually don't know. If you accept that the British are more reserved and less likely to discuss things, direct comparison is then quite difficult. (I'm not sure I do accept that but thats probably another argument...) > Whether this reputation is well-earned or the product of a sexually saturated media -- that anyone's guess. > > Ali continued: > >But, in every TV programme I see with American High School > >kids, I always think that the kids seem much older than > >British children of the same age. > Laura again:- > Well -- it's *TV*...I'll let you in on a secret...most of the "average American kids" portrayed on shows "about teens for teens" seem alot older than the RL average American kid. > > The shows are written by adults, the characters are played by adults -- I mean, how accurate of a portrayal of teenage life do you expect to get? Even if these grown-ups are well-meaning, they are still going to end up with a skewed perception of teenage-hood. Most of the teens you see on American television are either idealized or stylized -- or both. > > Perhaps British writers are better at getting in touch with their inner adolescent and therefore write more realistic teens? Perhaps you are right. The problem is there are not going to be many people who can make totally objective comparisons - even if they have experienced both cultures, they will almost certainly not have done simultaneously, and our society does seem to be changing very quickly at the moment. I had agreed with Darrin that JKR's WW and her portrayal of adolescence does seem a little "quaint", but that the comparison with US 5th graders - or the US in general might not be appropriate as the UK is different. At that point I got my fingers quite badly burned (I can still feel the blisters!) I thought if I was honest enough to show on what (admittedly limited) basis I made my observation it could be debated as such. As Darrin compared JKR's kids with US 5th graders, I could only compare what I know of UK kids to how I see US kids being portrayed. Perhaps (this is a *suggestion* rather than an opinion)- and could also be flamed - that American TV likes to show things how it should be, and British TV likes to show things how "it is" (or how the writers think it is). This would make any real comparison very hard. On what basis then can an American (or any other nationalty come to that) say that JKR is harking back to a bygone age? Whose? an American one or a British one - You can only compare it with what you know (ie the society around you) and what you are shown (however accurate that might be) of British society. Does that make your observation or opinion any less valid? I think not. You are perfectly entitled to your opinion, and I for one enjoy reading other people's opinions. Inevitably, I agree with some more than others, but I learn from all of them. > Laura:- >> It kind of alarms me the way so many of the adults on this list try to deny the sexuality of young children...that fifth and sixth graders didn't express sexual feelings at one point in the recent past -- to me this seems --I'm sorry, Darrin -- downright absurd. I don't know whether to burst out laughing or be very concerned. I don't know that the timescale for children experiencing their first sexual pangs has changed greatly over time. If you think about it, Romeo and Juliet were about 13 years old weren't they? What I do think has changed over time -and between cultures - is when it is acceptable to discuss it (and presumably to acknowledge it to oneself) and act on it. I personally have no problem with Harry coming to grips with his sexuality at the age of 13+. Harry afterall has had many other things to confront before this point. Ali (Who loves cultural differences and will happily discuss them for hours at a time but who is feeling very demoralised at the moment, and sincerely hopes that she has not offended anyone else today). From kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk Mon Jun 17 19:53:02 2002 From: kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk (Kathryn) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 20:53:02 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time) Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Semi-random gloating..and sadness *sigh* References: <001901c21635$f25798e0$a07763d1@texas.net> Message-ID: <3D0E3E1E.000005.42753@monica> Wait until you're home alone with young children. *They* climb on you and drool on you and chew on your clothes and make you say things you never, ever thought would come out of your mouth (Don't swing him by the eyeballs! Stop chewing on the snake! Don't lick your sister! etc.) --Amanda, who will ship her kids off to Joy tomorrow if it would relieve her loneliness. All of them. I'll pack clothes. They can stay a while. Just let me know. See now that was where you made your mistake - you warned her. Yous hould have sent them off to her and then told her about 5 minutes before they arrived! Does anyone else (especially those of you without your own kids yet) find themselves turning into their parents if they babysit - because I used to swear i would never say the things my parents did and yet when I'm around the young kids in my family I find myself saying things like - "Were you born in a field?" and "if you can't say anything nice ..." I have so far resisted the urge to tell them they should eat everything on their plate, while reinforcing the point with stories about starving kids in Africa :) (mind you that's probably because my family's kids have a tendency to eat anything that isn't nailed down) K From kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk Mon Jun 17 20:02:29 2002 From: kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk (Kathryn) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 21:02:29 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time) Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Maturity of kids in the Potterverse (moved from main list) References: Message-ID: <3D0E4055.000007.42753@monica> -------Original Message------- From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com Date: 17 June 2002 20:49:37 To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Maturity of kids in the Potterverse (moved from main list) --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "Laura Ingalls Huntley" wrote: > Alright..this is an attempt to move this dangerously OT topic to the appropriate list before the mods *make* us move.. > > Ali said: > >Another point I think is that British kids are still less > >sophisticated than their American counterparts. > > *frowns* Do you mean in an emotional-maturity kind of way? Cause I can't really agree with you there at all. > > If you mean in a sexual way, however, I *can* see where you get this perception. American teens certainly have a big reputation for being very sexual at a very early age. I do mean in a sexual way, but also - and please note this is my perception - they act like "adults" at a younger age. They seem to have thrown off the yoke of parental guidelines a little earlier. (Again, opinion based on misleading TV programmes).In terms of emotional-maturity, I actually don't know. If you accept that the British are more reserved and less likely to discuss things, direct comparison is then quite difficult. (I'm not sure I do accept that but thats probably another argument...) I think one point to be made is that the majority of the kids at hogwarts are from a very different society to 'normal' kids - no TV, no movies, wow! So no real external influences telling them how they 'should' be acting. That wasn't what I started this reply to say though. On the point of comparing British kids to US kids i can't say much But I know I did notice when i was on our many exchange programs with German schools, and later when I was at university in Germany, I noticed that German kids and young people seem to be at least 2 or 3 years behind British kids in maturity. When I was over there when I was 17 I noticed that the German students of my age were still at the "my mate likes your mate" stage and I noticed something similar later when I was at uni too. K From huntleyl at mssm.org Mon Jun 17 21:14:13 2002 From: huntleyl at mssm.org (Laura Ingalls Huntley) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 17:14:13 -0400 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Semi-random gloating..and sadness *sigh* References: <001401c2162c$41cb2680$e1ccedd1@Huntley> <001901c21635$f25798e0$a07763d1@texas.net> Message-ID: <003201c21643$ef5462a0$e1ccedd1@Huntley> Amanda said: >Wait until you're home alone with young children. *They* climb on you and >drool on you and chew on your clothes and make you say things you never, >ever thought would come out of your mouth (Don't swing him by the eyeballs! >Stop chewing on the snake! Don't lick your sister! etc.) ^_~ oh, but I *am* alone with young children...my sister is 6 and my brother is a very young 15 (and you guys think Harry and Co. are behind the curve)...not a good age combination. Of course, I'm not a parent -- I'm a formidable Big Sister...they've learned by now to do their eye ball swinging where I can't see them.. *evil grin* laura [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From huntleyl at mssm.org Mon Jun 17 21:50:22 2002 From: huntleyl at mssm.org (Laura Ingalls Huntley) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 17:50:22 -0400 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Maturity of kids in the Potterverse (moved from main list) References: Message-ID: <003a01c21648$fc4916e0$e1ccedd1@Huntley> Ali said: >I do mean in a sexual way, but also - and please note this is my >perception - they act like "adults" at a younger age. Again, I think this is because of the fact that they aren't real teens, but tv teens made for the purpose of being appealing by adult writers. I remember when Dawson's Creek came out, everyone was talking about how "adult" the characters acted compared to real teens. Never watched the show, but from what I've seen of similar programs (i.e. geared to similar audiences..I do confess that I am a Buffy fan) that's pretty much the norm. Ali continues: >I had agreed with Darrin that JKR's WW and her portrayal of >adolescence does seem a little "quaint", but that the >comparison with US 5th graders - or the US in general might >not be appropriate as the UK is different. And I still say it's not "quaint"...because in the "olden times" children *still* did not lack feelings that Harry does.. She *is* choosing to ignore certain aspects of sexuality..or delay their appearance, yes. But to call that being "quaint" seem wrong to me. Ali: >Perhaps (this is a *suggestion* rather than an opinion)- and could >also be flamed - that American TV likes to show things how it should >be, and British TV likes to show things how "it is" (or how the >writers think it is). Hmmm..I don't think American TV shows things as is "should be", per se. More like..they show what the audience wants -- which are things that they can't have in their own lives for various and sundry reasons. Things that probably aren't *good* for them..but are exciting, etc. Stuff like that. Ali: >I don't know that the timescale for children experiencing their first >sexual pangs has changed greatly over time. If you think about it, >Romeo and Juliet were about 13 years old weren't they? What I do >think has changed over time -and between cultures - is when it is >acceptable to discuss it (and presumably to acknowledge it to >oneself) and act on it. I'm with you up until here. Um, sort of. I think it's always (at least in the last century or so) been discussed at an early age amongst the kids -- it's just that the kids didn't talk to adults about it and the adults didn't talk to each other. And remember...in PoA, when he first "notices" girls (which seems like a ridiculously late age to be noticing, IMO), he isn't acting OR talking. In fact, he wouldn't have acted in GoF at all if the Yule Ball hadn't forced the issue upon him. I think the times at which Harry start to *act* on his feelings is okay...maybe a little idealistic, but a *good* age...it's the fact that he has just started to have these feelings the previous year that I find unrealistic. And of course, I think JKR has so far skirted the issue of puberty entirely at this point -- who knows if it's actually happening -- but she's not talking about it. >I personally have no problem with Harry >coming to grips with his sexuality at the age of 13+. Harry >afterall has had many other things to confront before this >point. Again, it's not that he's late in *acting*...it's that he's late in feeling... Also..I don't think the "he's had other things on his mind" argument holds much water at all. There is always room for sex. Always. ^_~ No, I'm serious. And when his feelings for Cho come out, his life is just as danger-ridden as ever, and he *still* has time to fantasize about her -- to the point of distraction. Esp. at that age, attraction to the opposite sex (or, heck, the same sex) isn't something that takes effort or time, IMO -- in fact, it's something that you really can't avoid, whether you want to or not. I mean, think about. The whole world could be coming to an end and do you think that would change Harry's feelings about Cho or his preoccupancy with them? I don't think so. laura [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From goku_n_vegeta_02 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 14 18:12:27 2002 From: goku_n_vegeta_02 at yahoo.com (Shayna Correll) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 11:12:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] losing weight In-Reply-To: <20020614134524.53489.qmail@web20010.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20020614181227.6946.qmail@web21307.mail.yahoo.com> Congratulations!!! I wish I could get myself to get back on my diet, but it's *so* hard. In the beginning of the year I went on a diet for five weeks to prove to my parents that I was serious about losing weight, but I stopped cuz they wouldn't help me pay for a membership to a gym. Oh well. Shaynie :) <<<<< zulyblue wrote: Hello! I don't post very much, but I'm always lurking in the background. Its been kind of quiet lately so I thought I might venture in again. Actually, I'm really here because I want to tell everyone I know (and even people I don't know, but after lurking for 7 months I feel like I know a lot of you even if you've never heard of me!) that as of yesterday I have lost 60 pounds so far!! So, I was wondering, is anyone else out there dieting (or excuse me, changing their lifestyle) successfully or trying to? Zulyblue >>>>>> From kerelsen at quik.com Tue Jun 18 02:54:43 2002 From: kerelsen at quik.com (Bernadette M. Crumb) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 22:54:43 -0400 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Maturity of kids in the Potterverse (moved from main list) References: <003a01c21648$fc4916e0$e1ccedd1@Huntley> Message-ID: <008f01c21673$80a45a60$5921b0d8@kerelsen> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Laura Ingalls Huntley" > Again, it's not that he's late in *acting*...it's that he's late in feeling... > > Also..I don't think the "he's had other things on his mind" argument holds much water at all. There is always room for sex. Always. > > ^_~ No, I'm serious. And when his feelings for Cho come out, his life is just as danger-ridden as ever, and he *still* has time to fantasize about her -- to the point of distraction. Esp. at that age, attraction to the opposite sex (or, heck, the same sex) isn't something that takes effort or time, IMO -- in fact, it's something that you really can't avoid, whether you want to or not. I mean, think about. The whole world could be coming to an end and do you think that would change Harry's feelings about Cho or his preoccupancy with them? I don't think so. I'm not saying that he's too busy for it. I look at what Harry's life has been up to the point that he came to Hogwart's and what it's like when he's back there for the summer and I wonder just how much exposure he got to the opposite sex as a child. Seriously! If he was really as isolated as Rowling implies, how _could_ he develop positive sexual feelings toward females if the only females he has much exposure to are either his Aunt Petunia (urgh!) or Mrs. Figg (she's described as a cranky old woman with cats--what young boy would find that attractive?). His exposure to males isn't much better, what with his uncle, his cousin and his cousin's friends. It would be kind of hard, I'd think, to have positive sexual feelings when you've never met anyone who could engender them in you. So I don't have a problem that it took a year or two for him to really start expressing sexuality. Frankly, I didn't start expressing sexual interest in anyone until I was well past 16 years old... but I was a late bloomer--and a lot of it had to do with my body chemistry that needed to be brought into balance. Once the hormones were flowing properly instead of being sabotaged by near anorexia, I started reacting like a "normal" teenage girl. Until then, when it came to sexual attracton--nada! Harry is described as being scrawny and underfed, in the books it is very clear that he has been fed poorly and in a few cases, he's been literally starved. We do know that sexual attraction responses are triggered by brain chemicals. If the body's chemistry is messed up due to malnutrition and such, I can see that the chemical triggers for Harry wouldn't work properly until he'd gotten a better diet and got his body back in balance. Once that was sorted out, then it makes sense to me that he'd finally be able to respond to sexual attraction. Just something that crossed my mind during my reading of this thread... Bernadette/RowanRhys "Life's greatest happiness is to be convinced we are loved." - Victor Hugo, Les Miserables, 1862 From anglinsbees at yahoo.com Tue Jun 18 05:28:56 2002 From: anglinsbees at yahoo.com (anglinsbees) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 05:28:56 -0000 Subject: SCA members / Pennsic Message-ID: Mistress Elen Greenhand here (Middle Kingdom, Barony of Northwoods, Hawkland Moor) So how many SCA members do we have on the list? How many of you are planning on going to Pennsic? Wanna get together and talk HP stuff? Anyone interested in dressing up as Death Eaters and marching in the Fools Parade carrying overhead marionettes of the camp Manager, his wife and kids? (as in the Campground scene in GOF? The whole Quidditch world cup campground is Pennsic all over to me!) If a get together sounds like fun, drop me a line at anglinsbees at yahoo.com Maybe we can at least have a "Hogwarts Tea" at my encampment. Mistress Elen Greenhand HPKA Ellen, The Pottering Beekeeper From anglinsbees at yahoo.com Tue Jun 18 05:40:41 2002 From: anglinsbees at yahoo.com (anglinsbees) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 05:40:41 -0000 Subject: losing weight In-Reply-To: <20020614134524.53489.qmail@web20010.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Congratulations! Big Cheer to you! I've been working on myself for the last year and a half.(Longer really, but the last year and a half is finally working!) I have managed to go from a size 14+ down to a size 6 - 8. (Yeah me!) Have been watching what I'm eating (Recorded everything I put in my mouth for a month or so to get a real Idea whre the calories were coming from- beverages were one of my big problems. Bottled Iced tea has a suprising number of empty calories.) and doing Yoga 2-3 times a week. Yoga has done wonders for me- my back no longer hurts, I'm stronger, more flexible, and just plain feel better. My favorite classes are a form of Hatha Yoga called Anusara Yoga. It focuses on Bodily alignment to prevent injury or aggiravation of previous injuries. (Knee and other joint injuries are common in yoga enthusiasts because many forms of Yoga don't keeps the joints safe. Anusara yoga focuses on keeping the joints safe and properly aligned with the rest of the body.) I can't say it'd work for everyone, but it has done wonders for me! Ellen A Pottering Beekeeper --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., zulyblue wrote: > Hello! > > I don't post very much, but I'm always lurking in the > background. Its been kind of quiet lately so I > thought I might venture in again. > > Actually, I'm really here because I want to tell > everyone I know (and even people I don't know, but > after lurking for 7 months I feel like I know a lot of > you even if you've never heard of me!) that as of > yesterday I have lost 60 pounds so far!! So, I was > wondering, is anyone else out there dieting (or excuse > me, changing their lifestyle) successfully or trying > to? > > Zulyblue > > > > ===== > Favorite song of the moment > > We sat around the table and we drank a bottle of wine > and it poured around us like a moat > till no one could get us and I was fine.... > > The Nields - Easy People > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup > http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com From editor at texas.net Tue Jun 18 17:23:04 2002 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 12:23:04 -0500 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] SCA members / Pennsic References: Message-ID: <002501c216ec$cf1be540$997663d1@texas.net> > Mistress Elen Greenhand here > (Middle Kingdom, Barony of Northwoods, Hawkland Moor) > > So how many SCA members do we have on the list? How many of you are > planning on going to Pennsic? Dame Alisandre Oliphant (Ansteorra, Barony of Bjornsborg) salutes you. You should get a game of Armored Quidditch up....Bruce Draconarius worked out rules for it. They were posted on Chatter; I can forward it to you if you lost it. And if they do, and anyone gets to video it, I'd pay to see it.... --Amanda, aka Alisandre From keegan at mcn.org Tue Jun 18 18:20:48 2002 From: keegan at mcn.org (Catherine Keegan) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 11:20:48 -0700 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] SCA members / Pennsic In-Reply-To: <002501c216ec$cf1be540$997663d1@texas.net> References: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20020618111636.00b39da0@mail.mcn.org> Viscountess Ceridwen MacAoudhegain OP, OL etc... West, the Marches, Ravenshore We're in the merchant's area. Come on by and say hi. Albion Works - look for the cool furniture. And I would LOVE to chat about Potter with someone. Catherine from California/Loup Noir on Fiction Alley (come read about Durmstrang!) At 12:23 PM 6/18/2002 -0500, you wrote: > > Mistress Elen Greenhand here > > (Middle Kingdom, Barony of Northwoods, Hawkland Moor) > > > > So how many SCA members do we have on the list? How many of you are > > planning on going to Pennsic? > >Dame Alisandre Oliphant (Ansteorra, Barony of Bjornsborg) salutes you. You >should get a game of Armored Quidditch up....Bruce Draconarius worked out >rules for it. They were posted on Chatter; I can forward it to you if you >lost it. > >And if they do, and anyone gets to video it, I'd pay to see it.... > >--Amanda, aka Alisandre > > > > >________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ > >Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the group's Admin Files! >http://gr >oups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/ > >Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material >from posts to which you're replying! > >Is your message... >An announcement of merchandise, news etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements. >Movie-related? Send it to HPFGU-Movie. >Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups. >None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter. >Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- >MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com > >Unsubscribing? Email HPFGU-OTChatter-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com >____________________________________________________________ > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the >Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From saitaina at wizzards.net Wed Jun 19 00:02:40 2002 From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 17:02:40 -0700 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Bad Day, looking to vent References: <3D0E3719.000003.42753@monica> Message-ID: <00fd01c21724$a1b8cea0$f64e28d1@oemcomputer> K wrote: < Both these doors are fitted with yale locks so that when you shut the door it can only be opened with a key or from the inside. (btw my landlady lives in Spain most of the year and is uncontactable). Is there any smart arse out there who has seen the disaster in the making here? Ooo, I hate that lock. I have locked myself out numerious times with this same lock. Luckily I live on the ground floor and have a nice window to break into so long as I'm not wearing a skirt. (when I'm wearing a skirt I con a local elementry kid into climbing through my window). I have since learned to grab my keys even to check the mail because my door likes to shut behind me even if I carefully prop it open. The only upside to this lock is locking in a cute cable repair guy and watching him try to struggle to get out (he said he didnt' need my help so I sat on the bed and watched). Saitaina ***** Cordelia: It's kinda like a puzzle -- the Who Died Horribly Because Angel Screwed Up 50 Years Ago Game? Denver: They keep calling her a zany redhead. Could be a brunette for all I can tell. Guess I'll just have to take their word for it. Angel: It's been a long time since I've opened a vein, but I'll do it you pull any more of that Van Helsing Jr. crap with me. Are we clear? Thesulac: There's an entire hotel here just full of tortured souls who could really use your help. Whaddya say? Angel: Take 'em all. Wesley: I've been accused of a great many things in my time, but paranoid has never been one of them. Unless people have been saying it behind my back. -"Are you no or have you ever been" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk Wed Jun 19 00:12:15 2002 From: kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk (Kathryn) Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 01:12:15 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time) Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Bad Day, looking to vent References: <00fd01c21724$a1b8cea0$f64e28d1@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <3D0FCC5F.000001.88239@monica> -------Original Message------- From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com Date: 19 June 2002 01:02:50 To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Bad Day, looking to vent The only upside to this lock is locking in a cute cable repair guy and watching him try to struggle to get out (he said he didnt' need my help so I sat on the bed and watched). Saitaina ***** I have had it pointed out to me that having a group of firemen break in through my bedroom window might be considered an upside but since I was hot, sweaty, vergin on hysterical, and being rescued from my own stupidity it wasn't really a good time to meet cute gy#uys! K From macloudt at hotmail.com Wed Jun 19 08:10:31 2002 From: macloudt at hotmail.com (Mary Jennings) Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 08:10:31 +0000 Subject: Door locks Message-ID: Saitaina, commenting on Yale locks: >The only upside to this lock is locking in a cute cable repair guy and >watching him try to struggle to get out (he said he didnt' need my help so >I sat on the bed and watched). And I'm sure you *conveniently* found the keys some five minutes after he left, eh? Smart girl ;) When we bought our house it didn't have a key-only Yale lock but did have the type of lock that locked you out if you weren't careful. Considering that our front door is forever slamming shut by itself we had this lock removed and now have a normal door-handle one with a keyhole. Our main point of entry is the sunroom at the back anyway, but the number of times we nearly got locked before we got the locks changed... Some people were never meant to have self-locking doors, and I'm one of them. It's now such a force of habit to lock the doors with the key anyway that I've been known to lock DH in the back garden a few times. I keep telling him it's nothing personal, but he's not so sure. Our house is from 1935 and most of the internal door mechanisms are original, though we had the actual door handles changed. A few years ago, when Beth and Gareth were sharing a bedroom, I couldn't get their bedroom door open one morning. The kids were too young to understand, but I was panicking like hell. It took me several phone calls to track down a locksmith who could come straight away; in fact if this locksmith hadn't been able to come I would have phone the fire brigade. The locksmith got the door open with minimal effort. The mechanism had worn out and the latch that's supposed to release the door catch no longer worked. As I said, the kids had no inkling that something was wrong, but I aged a few years that morning. Mind you, a house full of firemen would have done me some good... Mary Ann (who's usually good at leaving the house with the keys and the correct number of children) _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. From cindysphynx at comcast.net Wed Jun 19 13:21:08 2002 From: cindysphynx at comcast.net (cindysphynx) Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 13:21:08 -0000 Subject: Door locks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Mary Ann wrote (about the kids getting locked in): >As I said, the > kids had no inkling that something was wrong, but I aged a few years that > morning. Oh, boy. I know that feeling. Some years ago, we lived in a house that had a door leading to the basement that locked behind you. I had a one-year old with me. I figured I'd go down and toss a load of laundry in, and I heard that dreaded "click" behind me. I was locked in the basement, and the kid was roaming the house unattended. I managed to get out of the basement, but getting into the house proved nearly impossible. Breaking into a house looks so *easy* in the movies, but I failed miserably. I found a snow shovel and I figured I could use it to break the window in the kitchen door. I swung it with all my might and it just bounced off. Throwing my shoulder into the basement door was useless. I ran around the neighborhood looking for help, but no one was home, and there was no phone to use. Finally, I flagged down a utility truck, and he used his tools to pry the basement door open. Let's just say the landlord kept a bit of our security deposit. Cindy (observing that the "My kid is locked in" feeling is right up there with the "I've lost my kid" feeling) From kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk Wed Jun 19 17:52:32 2002 From: kcawte at kcawte.freeserve.co.uk (Kathryn) Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 18:52:32 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time) Subject: Any Sims fans out there? Message-ID: <3D10C4E0.000003.92833@monica> If so do any of you know where I can get some decent adult Harry Potter skins? Or failing that just robe like aoutfits? K From kippesp at yahoo.com Wed Jun 19 17:53:48 2002 From: kippesp at yahoo.com (smitster1) Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 17:53:48 -0000 Subject: (NYT) CliffsNotes/SparkNotes to publish study guide to SS/PS Message-ID: >From 19 June 2002 NY Times Book-Club Smarts in a Nutshell: Get Notes By KATE ZERNIKE http://www.nytimes.com/2002/06/19/national/19CLIF.html? ex=1025508708&ei=1&en=7eb6ae39f099deb4 Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone" was a blockbuster book, spawning blockbuster sequels and a blockbuster movie. Next month, it will achieve that mark of a true classic: the publishers of SparkNotes, a CliffsNotes knockoff, will publish a study guide ? also known as a cheat sheet ? to the tale of the little boy with the lightning-bolt scar. [cut] Some might question the need for guides to relatively straightforward stories. [cut] Still, for $4.99, readers of the SparkNotes "Harry Potter" can come to appreciate that the nervous Professor Quirrell is actually spouting Machiavelli; that Voldemort is, in fact, right out of Nietzsche. [cut] From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Thu Jun 20 10:55:34 2002 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 10:55:34 -0000 Subject: Bad Day, looking to vent In-Reply-To: <3D0E3719.000003.42753@monica> Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "Kathryn" wrote: >I live in a first floor flat over a shop. There is a main door from > the street which is kept locked and can only be opened from the inside or > the outside with a key. This seems crackers. I guess you aren't allowed to change it to a lock you can open *without* a key from the inside (I remember your managing agents only too well: uncontactable, unhelpful, penny- pinching and prone to adding large unexplained sums to the service charge bill), since the Fire Brigade's solution effectively takes away the security of having a lock at all. The one time we locked ourselves out we were disorganised enough to leave the bathroom window open too. We were too large to get in but borrowed a ladder and heaved James in with instructions to go and open the front door. Since he was three at the time this was a moderately high risk strategy, but it worked after a few anxious moments. OTOH, the 'I can see the car keys on the front seat but the door's locked' scenario is always good for a laugh on a family day out. David From meckelburg at foni.net Thu Jun 20 13:14:45 2002 From: meckelburg at foni.net (mecki987) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 13:14:45 -0000 Subject: Bad Day, looking to vent In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "davewitley" wrote: > --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "Kathryn" wrote: > >I live in a first floor flat over a shop. There is a main door from > > the street which is kept locked and can only be opened from the > inside or > > the outside with a key. > Hi, Our lock works like that too. On a really rainy day a couple of years ago, I was carrying the baby-trolly with my son down the stairs, when I realised, the key was still in the lock on the inside. I called to my daughter, nearly six at that time, "DON'T shut the d...." Too late! we live in a tiny village, no locksmith or anything. We spent the next three hour with various neighbours, the baby crying for new diapers and food, until my husband came home from work! Since then one neighbour always has an emergency-key! Mecki From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Thu Jun 20 17:18:58 2002 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 17:18:58 -0000 Subject: Small gangs Message-ID: On the main list, Athena wrote: >I've never heard of a gang of two. in connection with the size of Pansy Parkinson's Slytherin gang. Well, I think the politician David Owen was known as the 'Gang of One' for a while because of his unique ability to alienate all his political allies. David From ameliagoldfeesh at yahoo.com Fri Jun 21 00:07:24 2002 From: ameliagoldfeesh at yahoo.com (ameliagoldfeesh) Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 00:07:24 -0000 Subject: Any Sims fans out there? Message-ID: ? >If so do any of you know where I can get some decent adult >Harry Potter skins? Or failing that just robe like a outfits? >K A good site is SimHogwarts (http://www.redrival.com/hammerhead/snape/simhogwarts.html) It has Dumbledore, McGonagall, Snape, Hagrid, Quirrel, Lockhart, and Skeeter plus some very good links. They are even made for Mac(!) and PC too. Sleepy Hollow Sims (www.sleepyhollowsims.com) is linked on SimHogwarts and has a lot of good items that fit a HP theme. Seven Deadly Sims (www.7deadlysims.com) has a few items and just generally neat stuff. The Sims Resource (http://www.thesimsresource.com/) has some awesome looking adult skins of Harry, Ron, Hermione, Draco and Parvati. However to get to them you have to basically look through all the skins on the site. The site has good stuff but needs some sort of search option. (They are for PC and I had trouble getting them converted to Mac- so if you have a PC you might have better luck with them.) SimmingtonSquare (www.simmingtonsquare.com) has buildings such as Hogwarts, the Burrow and such. It also has many links listed (not all work but enough to get a start). A Goldfeesh (btw, Snape in his swimwear is something to behold *L*) From jenP_97 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 21 03:56:26 2002 From: jenP_97 at yahoo.com (jenP_97) Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 03:56:26 -0000 Subject: Any Sims fans out there? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "ameliagoldfeesh" wrote: > (btw, Snape in his swimwear is something to behold *L*) Oh man, as a Sims fan, I just HAD to laugh. I usually don't mix obsessions of mine (and as any Sims fan can attest, it quickly becomes an obsession), so I've not gone looking for HP skins, wallpapers, buildings, and so forth, but this list of information was incredible! I am amazed at the effort you put into it! Bravo! Jen (who thinks Snape in a swimsuit would be a little strange, not to mention blindingly pale...) From jenP_97 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 21 04:02:46 2002 From: jenP_97 at yahoo.com (jenP_97) Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 04:02:46 -0000 Subject: More weirdness from the neighbors from hell... Message-ID: This is a quicky. You remember our foul neighbors? The ones who had sewage leaking into their yard (fixed, btw, although probably only temporarily)? Well, guess what they're doing now. It's 9pm and dark outside. Any ideas? They're trimming their lawn with a "weed-eater" (gas trimmer). Can you imagine? How on earth can they even SEE what they're trimming????????????????? They're nuts, I tell you. They're also running their riding mower in the back yard, but at least IT has a headlight... that I can make allowances for. They're probably stoned, too... when Chris went over there recently to get them to go out into their back yard to fix a leaky sprinkler valve that was flooding the other 3 neighbors, he saw (and smelled) them smoking pot in their garage. That is the only thing I can think of that would convince them that running machinery with sharp edges in the dark is a good idea. Jen (who hopes they don't cut off anything important...) From Robert.Scott at acxiom.com Fri Jun 21 04:35:14 2002 From: Robert.Scott at acxiom.com (Scott Robert - rscott) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 23:35:14 -0500 Subject: Introducing ... Wobby Dobby Message-ID: Hello, everyone! Wow, what a big list. I'm a member of a couple other lists (Stephen King and Joe Satriani), but they're nowhere near this size (the main list, anyway). I'll try to go through the old posts, but 40K+ ... sheesh. After reading that intro file, I'm kinda scared to post to the main list. : ) Anyway, I just thought I'd introduce myself. I'm Robert Scott, from Conway, Arkansas, USA. When I was a kid, I had trouble with "R"s and "S"s and thus called myself Wobby Cott for quite a while - and thus the nick. I'm 31 years old, a software developer, married for nearly 13 years, with two kids - 12 (girl) and 9 (boy). I got into the HP books last summer, when the whole family listened to SS on a trip to Dallas. Well, I was hooked. I read along with the audio for all four, and immensely enjoyed the movie, and have just listened to all four on audio again this summer, and am immensely looking forward to CS in November. I also enjoy golf, racquetball, disc golf, primetime TV, and movies. I'm currently trying to finish reading everything ever published by Stephen King, and I'm tinkering with writing some short stories of my own. Honestly, where do I find the time? I hope to be able to contribute to the discussions here through the 3 upcoming books and 6 upcoming movies. How exciting ... Wobby Dobby ******************************************************************** The information contained in this communication is confidential, is intended only for the use of the recipient named above, and may be legally privileged. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please re-send this communication to the sender and delete the original message or any copy of it from your computer system. Thank You. From bray.262 at osu.edu Fri Jun 21 10:40:26 2002 From: bray.262 at osu.edu (Rachel Bray) Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 10:40:26 +0000 (EST5EDT) Subject: Oh well....but still very proud Message-ID: USA lost to Germany this morning. And just by 1 point! Sad. :-( But! Our rank this year is still fantastic. Last year we were 32 out of 32 teams. And this is the best we've done since 1930. And Brian McBride is on the team! :-) (Hometown hero here in Columbus.) Good luck to the rest of the teams still going strong!!! Rachel Bray The Ohio State University Fees, Deposits and Disbursements LORD OF THE SNITCH Three men form the chaser-squad under the sky Seven are the teammates on their brooms of wood Two are Bludger balls charmed to fly One is the dork Ref all on his own On the field of Quidditch where the Quaffles lie. One Snitch flits over all, one grab will win it One game may take three months, or may take but a minute On the field of Quidditch where the Quaffles lie. http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From caliburncy at yahoo.com Fri Jun 21 17:27:05 2002 From: caliburncy at yahoo.com (caliburncy) Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 17:27:05 -0000 Subject: Introducing ... Wobby Dobby In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Welcome, Robert! Yes, the list can be rather daunting when you're new. We pretty much all felt that way at one point. :-) (Well, except perhaps the people that have been here since the beginning.) Don't bother reading all the back messages--there's so many of them that no one really expects you to. Instead, just read the current messages for a couple days before you begin posting, so that you get an idea of how things work around here, and what's recently been talked about. It sounds like you've already read the Humunguous Bigfile (http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin), so that's good, and so long as you don't ask a question in the VFAQ (http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/vfaq), then you should be just fine. We moderate new members' messages on the Main List, so you have a "safety net" as it were, with Moderators and List Elves to read your message before it goes to the list and make sure you have the hang of things. So all it takes is a bit of courage and persistence, and then things get much more comfortable very quickly--it's a very welcoming group, I think, despite the size. If you're particularly concerned about getting an idea of what's already been discussed, you should check out our Topical Essays, also known as the FAQs, if you haven't already (http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/faq/). They're basically a compilation of past discussion on the list (although not entirely up to date), and they're great reading when you first join (I even like perusing them again from time to time) because they map out so much of what has come before, collecting together lots of various theories and opinions. Looking through these will prove much easier and quicker for you than trying to read all the back messages, and it'll still give you a good idea of what's happened in the past here. Of course, your list elf has probably already contacted you off-list with this information (if not, he or she will soon), but once I start typing I just keep going and going . . . the resident Energizer Bunny of the list, if you will. Again, welcome! Glad to have you here! Take care, -Luke List Elf Harry Potter for GrownUps From boggles at earthlink.net Sat Jun 22 05:36:43 2002 From: boggles at earthlink.net (Jennifer Boggess Ramon) Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 00:36:43 -0500 Subject: Expressing Emotions Message-ID: I'm so very behind on the main list - I just ran into this comment: At 9:06 PM -0500 6/1/02, kelly broughton wrote: >Plus the fact that he is in his middle teens- most boys of any >culture (correct me if I'm wrong) seem to have trouble expressing >deep feeling, unless it is anger or hatred. Not only many boys and teenagers, but many male actors under the age of about 50, IMHO! Annoyance, anger, rage, yeah, they're all there - but ask them to do something else . . . This is, in fact, the one reason I like Keanu Reeves despite his occasional extreme woodenness - he doesn't really do anger very well at all, and generally doesn't take parts that require him to try. He does do *very* well at baffled surprise ("Whoah . . .") and the "Oh, I get it" look - which very few actors in his (read: my) generation manage. -- - Boggles, aka J. C. B. Ramon boggles at earthlink.net === Personal Growth Geek Code v0.4 === GG++ !T A-- M++s--- g+ B- C- P++++ a- b- h+ her++ E+ N n++ i f+ c++ S%++++&&># D R++ xc++ xm+ xi+ yd++ ys++(-) rt+ ro+ rp++++ rjk<+ ow+++ ofn+ oft++ op++ esk-- ey+ ek+++ pl++ pf++ pe++ U! From fluxed at earthlink.net Sat Jun 22 06:21:04 2002 From: fluxed at earthlink.net (A. Vulgarweed) Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 01:21:04 -0500 Subject: World Cup, Expressive Actors In-Reply-To: <1024724556.317.42986.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: Rachel Bray: > >USA lost to Germany this morning. And just by 1 point! >Sad. :-( > >But! Our rank this year is still fantastic. Last year we >were 32 out of 32 teams. And this is the best we've done >since 1930. It's something to be proud of for sure! There's no shame in losing honorably to a powerful opponent, and I'm happy the US got as far as we did. I'll be dodging some English rocks for this but I'm happy 'cause, um, Viva o Brasil! (My mom's from there, what can I do?) This is brilliant, I have been meaning to say: >LORD OF THE SNITCH >Three men form the chaser-squad under the sky >Seven are the teammates on their brooms of wood >Two are Bludger balls charmed to fly >One is the dork Ref all on his own >On the field of Quidditch where the Quaffles lie. >One Snitch flits over all, one grab will win it >One game may take three months, or may take but a minute >On the field of Quidditch where the Quaffles lie. > >http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm > > And Boggles says: >Not only many boys and teenagers, but many male actors under the age >of about 50, IMHO! Annoyance, anger, rage, yeah, they're all there - >but ask them to do something else . . . This is, in fact, the one >reason I like Keanu Reeves despite his occasional extreme woodenness >- he doesn't really do anger very well at all, and generally doesn't >take parts that require him to try. He does do *very* well at >baffled surprise ("Whoah . . .") and the "Oh, I get it" look - which >very few actors in his (read: my) generation manage. > Well, he's not under 50, but an old friend of mine pointed out, and was dead right, that the reason why Harrison Ford is a truly great action-adventure actor is that he is brilliant at conveying *anxiety, stress, fear, exasperation, and pain.* We noticed this back when he was Han Solo and Indiana Jones--you could believe this was a real guy in these ridiculous situations, trying to get his rattlebag ship to start before they get blasted or trying not to be crushed by the boulder or whatever. He looked _deeply uncomfortable_, just like an actual person would be! Wow! (The fact that I am so impressed by this demonstrates what a rare gift it is.) I saw 'Air Force One' on TV a little while back, and he's still got it even when he's trying to be "Presidential" at the same time. Jackie Chan is also a master of this (and of its vast comic potential), which is why so many people who don't usually like martial-arts action films like him. I've gotta say I haven't really liked Keanu Reeves very much in anything since the Bill & Ted movies, which used his range to greatest advantage. :) 'The Matrix' did make pretty good use of the "Whoa...." and "Oh, I get it," though. AV From michelleapostolides at yahoo.co.uk Sat Jun 22 11:21:57 2002 From: michelleapostolides at yahoo.co.uk (Michelle Apostolides) Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 12:21:57 +0100 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Oh well....but still very proud References: Message-ID: <002701c219df$058fb260$418c01d4@john> USA lost to Germany this morning. And just by 1 point! Sad. :-( You mean one goal ? But! Our rank this year is still fantastic. Last year we were 32 out of 32 teams. And this is the best we've done since 1930. There was no World Cup last year. You mean four years ago..... I think this WC has been fantastic because there have been so many countries doing better than expected. I am proud to be an Englishwoman today ! Michelle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dradamsapple at yahoo.com Sun Jun 23 01:54:29 2002 From: dradamsapple at yahoo.com (dradamsapple) Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 01:54:29 -0000 Subject: More weirdness from the neighbors from hell... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "jenP_97" wrote: > This is a quicky. You remember our foul neighbors? The ones > who had sewage leaking into their yard (fixed, btw, although > probably only temporarily)? Well, guess what they're doing now. > It's 9pm and dark outside. Any ideas? They're trimming their > lawn with a "weed-eater" (gas trimmer). Can you imagine? How > on earth can they even SEE what they're trimming????????????????? > > They're nuts, I tell you. They're also running their riding > mower in the back yard, but at least IT has a headlight... that > I can make allowances for. > > They're probably stoned, too... when Chris went over there > recently to get them to go out into their back yard to fix a > leaky sprinkler valve that was flooding the other 3 neighbors, > he saw (and smelled) them smoking pot in their garage. That is > the only thing I can think of that would convince them that > running machinery with sharp edges in the dark is a good idea. > > Jen (who hopes they don't cut off anything important...) > > Jen, Just to let you know that this post kept me laughing for quite awhile tonite! Reminded me of some old neighbors we had back at our old house . . . In one incident, the husband had a burnt up frying pan out in front of the house near the curb, scrapping the chard remnants into the street. If anything else but annoying, they at least kept us entertained once in a while. Good Luck!! Anna . . . From neilward at dircon.co.uk Sun Jun 23 18:56:01 2002 From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward) Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 19:56:01 +0100 Subject: Geist in the machine ... the car heads for the Forbidden Forest Message-ID: <002101c21ae7$b3ff0f40$493570c2@c5s910j> Dear HPfGU members, I thought I should let you know that I have stepped down from the Magical Moderators of Harry Potter for Grownups after 18 months on the team. My thanks and respect go to the remaining Mods (Penny, John, Catherine, Cindy and Kelley) and to the other ex-Mods (Amy, Jim and Jeralyn) with whom I've shared the draughty admin tower. I feel a short poem coming on... Many a wand we waved, Many a nit we picked, Many a path we paved, Many a butt we kicked. I've been a member of HPfGU since May 2000 (two years - yikes), so I've seen the club develop from a single list of 100 or so people into a vast, many-tentacled monster. I've had a wonderful time posting to the lists and, latterly, helping to moderate them. I've encountered interesting and varied people, made several friends and met quite a few members in human form. I'm still around. I'll be joining the team of Geists (nitwits, oddments, lurkers, geeks) who, along with the List Elves, help the Mods run the lists. I'm still involved with HPfGU-London and hope to meet many more of you on my foreign travels. Although I've been unusually quiet these past six months, I may return to posting on the lists, especially if - ahem - Book 5 makes an appearance. At least you know that 'ADMIN' is one prefix I probably won't be using again. ;-) Magically, Your rusty mechanimagus... Neil __________________ Flying Ford Anglia "'Put your foot down, Fred!' yelled Ron, and the car shot suddenly towards the moon." [Chamber of Secrets] From bray.262 at osu.edu Mon Jun 24 17:01:17 2002 From: bray.262 at osu.edu (duranduran88) Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 17:01:17 -0000 Subject: Oops...not very good with soccer-speak In-Reply-To: <002701c219df$058fb260$418c01d4@john> Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "Michelle Apostolides" wrote: > > > USA lost to Germany this morning. And just by 1 point! > Sad. :-( > > You mean one goal ? > *embarrassed grin* Yes, I meant one goal. Sorry. I'm not very good with my soccer-speak. It wasn't popular at all in the area I grew up in. We lived and breathed football, which is still my favorite sport. I love how soccer has become a rather big sport around here now. Actually, I've heard that they're having problems finding coaches and fields for all the children/teens that have signed up for soccer. Too many signed up for the city/town leagues, not enough coaches and playing fields. Don't get me wrong, I love watching soccer. It's an amazing sport and tons of action. And I've gone to a couple Crew games. I'm just a bit behind on my soccer-vocabulary. :-) Rachel Bray *who is so ready for football season that she can't hardly stand it!* From jenP_97 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 24 22:22:11 2002 From: jenP_97 at yahoo.com (jenP_97) Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 22:22:11 -0000 Subject: I can't be pregnant forever! Message-ID: Hehe... Okay, so I knew that already, but now it's official. I scheduled my c-section date with my ob, and have a definite (barring any premature notions this kid may have) arrival date: Friday, July 26th. Not Harry's birthday, no... but pretty close! My doctor gave me a window of the 26th through the 30th, saying he didn't want to go any earlier, but didn't want to go much later, either, because Ginger was 10 days early. So as I couldn't pick the 31st, and didn't want to pick the 30th because it's my sister's birthday, I chose the earliest one I could. :) I'm pretty relieved that I know for certain that this kid won't be kicking me in the guts for too much longer. Just a little over 5 more weeks - sounds reasonable to me. Of course... sometimes I think I was insane to get pregnant back in November... what sane person would try to be pregnant at the hottest part of summer????????? JenP, the huge and sweaty... From jenP_97 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 25 03:24:20 2002 From: jenP_97 at yahoo.com (jenP_97) Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 03:24:20 -0000 Subject: I can't be pregnant forever! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "jenP_97" wrote: I've been reminded that there are lots of good reasons for having babies in the sweltering heat... and there are, I agree. For example, I was ecstatic to finally be pregnant after over a year of trying - and it's great to have my husband out of school for the summer to help me out for 3 weeks while I'm recovering. I didn't mean to sound cranky... I just am, and I can't help it. So here's to all of you with summer birthdays and with kids with summer birthdays - summer may be hell for pregnant women, but we all know we wouldn't change a thing. :) JenP, the hot and cranky, but very excited. :) From dradamsapple at yahoo.com Tue Jun 25 03:28:50 2002 From: dradamsapple at yahoo.com (dradamsapple) Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 03:28:50 -0000 Subject: I can't be pregnant forever! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "jenP_97" wrote: > Hehe... Okay, so I knew that already, but now it's official. > I scheduled my c-section date with my ob, and have a > definite (barring any premature notions this kid may have) > arrival date: Friday, July 26th. Not Harry's birthday, no... > but pretty close! > JenP, the huge and sweaty... JenP, Congratulations on the impending arrival of your second (did I get that right, that this is baby number 2?) Anyhow, I can sympathize with the surgery, as I 've had THREE C- Sections: my first, was also for a tardy baby (who happened to be born on July 28!! :+)); my second, was for my gymnast daughter who was breech since 7 months along, and my third was for, well, at that point, it didn't really matter anymore. He did turn out to be a little bruiser though: 8 lbs. 13 oz. and this was two weeks before my due date. He was so top heavy that he couldn't even sit up without falling over until he was a year old! Kind of like a weeble (weebles wobble but they don't fall down: but he did fall down, and boy am I aging myself!!) Well, the point of all this blabbering is that if you need any advice or a sympathetic ear, I'm here. Good luck and keep us posted!! Have a wonderful last month! Anna . . . From bray.262 at osu.edu Tue Jun 25 09:23:39 2002 From: bray.262 at osu.edu (Rachel Bray) Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 09:23:39 +0000 (EST5EDT) Subject: for the Philip Pullman fans Message-ID: <118F0F44066@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu> I've noticed this author being mentioned here several times and saw this article this morning in USA Today. Thought you might like to read it. http://www.usatoday.com/life/enter/books/2002/2002-06-25- pullman.htm Rachel Bray The Ohio State University Fees, Deposits and Disbursements LORD OF THE SNITCH Three men form the chaser-squad under the sky Seven are the teammates on their brooms of wood Two are Bludger balls charmed to fly One is the dork Ref all on his own On the field of Quidditch where the Quaffles lie. One Snitch flits over all, one grab will win it One game may take three months, or may take but a minute On the field of Quidditch where the Quaffles lie. http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From lupinesque at yahoo.com Tue Jun 25 18:50:19 2002 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (lupinesque) Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 18:50:19 -0000 Subject: un petit cadeau du Canada Message-ID: Hi all, I spent the past week at a conference in Quebec (City), without HP books, Walkman, or internet access, and spent *almost* no time thinking about HP. It was very good for me. There were two exceptions: there was a kid there who looked so much like Harry I wanted to go up to him and muss his hair (it was the only inaccuracy). Fortunately for my career, I resisted. The other exception was that I bought myself a French copy of PA, excusing myself with the argument that it would be a great way to practice my French. Actually, it really is. If in another lifetime I'm a foreign language teacher, I'll recommend the technique of reading a book one knows very, very well in one's native tongue. I'm reading it really slowly, absorbing grammatical rules I'd long since forgotten, and picking up vast amounts of French vocabulary: hibou (owl), balai (broomstick), baguette (wand), Chocogrenouille (Chocolate Frog). I'm sure they will come in handy next time I'm in a French-speaking country. ;-) I have a report for you Sirius lovers out there: the back cover has the studliest Sirius I've ever seen. He's unshaven (ooh!) and scowling (swoon!), and has a haircut and attire that suggest he hangs out in the very coolest cafes. There's also a drawing of Lupin that makes him look very nice, but old enough to be Sirius's dad. He has heavily gray hair and bags under his eyes along with the patched clothes and smile, collectively making him look kind of like your favorite uncle who's just suffered a long bout of pneumonia. I'll scan them in if I can, because there are websites with the front cover (same as the French) but I've never seen one with the back. Don't hold your breath, though. I don't have a scanner. Amy From s_ings at yahoo.com Wed Jun 26 10:39:11 2002 From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend) Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 06:39:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Happy Birthday, Dean! Message-ID: <20020626103911.49475.qmail@web14609.mail.yahoo.com> *looks around at the tattered decorations from previous celebrations and start tearing them down and putting up new ones* Okay, who left this room in such a mess? Don't you know there are still more birthdays this month to celebrate? How do think today's honouree will feel coming in to see the state of this room? Quick, let's get this place ready for a party. Today's honouree is Dean Slade. Birthday greeting for Dean can be sent care of this list or directly to: redlineco at yahoo.com Dean, I hope the day filled with butterbeer, chocolate frogs and many magical moments. Happy Birthday, Dean! Sheryll ===== "We need to be united and strong. We'll have losses and scares, sure. And you'll be there for each other, helping each other through the bad times." blpurdom - Harry Potter and the Psychic Serpent, Chapter 26 ______________________________________________________________________ Post your ad for free now! http://personals.yahoo.ca From witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 26 14:58:22 2002 From: witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com (Wanda the Witch) Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 07:58:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HAPPY BIRTHDAY! Message-ID: <20020626145822.82748.qmail@web13709.mail.yahoo.com> HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO DEAN HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU! All of us here in Revere, Massachusetts, of the Mallett Family wish you a very magical day on this special day! May you get what you wish for! Lots of HP goodies! Have a very Happy Birthday today Dean! Schnoogles, Wanda the Witch of Revere,Massachusetts and Her Very Merry Band of Muggles 100% "When you come to the edge of all the light you know, and are about to step off into the darkness of the unknown, faith is knowing one of two things will happen; There will be something solid to stand on, or you will be taught how to fly."......Unknown. --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Sign-up for Video Highlights of 2002 FIFA World Cup [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bray.262 at osu.edu Wed Jun 26 12:24:08 2002 From: bray.262 at osu.edu (Rachel Bray) Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 12:24:08 +0000 (EST5EDT) Subject: An invitation to all! Message-ID: <133F3CA1252@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu> Today is the publication anniversary of the first Harry book. We should all get together at the Three Broomsticks and have a couple rounds of butterbeer to celebrate! Let's say....6 o'clock? First one there tell Rosemerta that we need a table in the back. (and those who want can slink off to the Sleazy Weasel afterwards, haha) First round on me! Rachel Bray The Ohio State University Fees, Deposits and Disbursements LORD OF THE SNITCH Three men form the chaser-squad under the sky Seven are the teammates on their brooms of wood Two are Bludger balls charmed to fly One is the dork Ref all on his own On the field of Quidditch where the Quaffles lie. One Snitch flits over all, one grab will win it One game may take three months, or may take but a minute On the field of Quidditch where the Quaffles lie. http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From kerelsen at quik.com Wed Jun 26 17:42:52 2002 From: kerelsen at quik.com (Bernadette M. Crumb) Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 13:42:52 -0400 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] An invitation to all! References: <133F3CA1252@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu> Message-ID: <012f01c21d38$e78ac2c0$d521b0d8@kerelsen> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rachel Bray" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 8:24 AM Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] An invitation to all! > Today is the publication anniversary of the first Harry > book. > > We should all get together at the Three Broomsticks and > have a couple rounds of butterbeer to celebrate! > > Let's say....6 o'clock? First one there tell Rosemerta > that we need a table in the back. (and those who want can > slink off to the Sleazy Weasel afterwards, haha) > > First round on me! Hey Rachel, if you're getting the first round, I'm buying the second. And here's a toast! To J. K. Rowling! Thanks for making years of enjoyable reading and debating possible, and may your muse be generous and expedite your completion of Book Five! :) Happy Anniversary! Bernadette/RowanRhys "Life's greatest happiness is to be convinced we are loved." - Victor Hugo, Les Miserables, 1862 From witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 26 21:49:08 2002 From: witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com (Wanda the Witch) Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 14:49:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] An invitation to all! In-Reply-To: <133F3CA1252@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu> Message-ID: <20020626214908.21923.qmail@web13703.mail.yahoo.com> Rachel Bray wrote: Today is the publication anniversary of the first Harry book. We should all get together at the Three Broomsticks and have a couple rounds of butterbeer to celebrate! Let's say....6 o'clock? First one there tell Rosemerta that we need a table in the back. (and those who want can slink off to the Sleazy Weasel afterwards, haha) First round on me! Rachel Bray The Ohio State University Fees, Deposits and Disbursements All Right! Well it is 20 minutes to 5 here in Revere! So, I'm on my way, save me seat! :) Hope there will be more there! As a summer reading selection for kids entering the 7th grade, Harry Potter and The Sorcerer's Stone is one of the books to read over the summer! Looks like we start over again! Fine with all of us! I get the second round of drinks of Butterbeer! :) Off to grab my broom! Wanda the Witch of Revere,Massachusetts and Her Very Merry Band of Muggles 100% "When you come to the edge of all the light you know, and are about to step off into the darkness of the unknown, faith is knowing one of two things will happen; There will be something solid to stand on, or you will be taught how to fly."......Unknown. --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Sign-up for Video Highlights of 2002 FIFA World Cup [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From saitaina at wizzards.net Wed Jun 26 23:58:44 2002 From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina) Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 16:58:44 -0700 Subject: Depressing College Update References: <20020626214908.21923.qmail@web13703.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <015601c21d6d$68516240$d14e28d1@oemcomputer> Alright, those of you in chat who can remember knew yesterday was a big day for me but for the rest I will fill you in. I had been having problems with a teacher at my college who wanted to fail me, seemed to have wanted to fail me since the moment I walked through the door even though I have gotten A's on every written there is. During clinical she kicked me out of class for "Immaturity and not interacting appropriately with co-workers" (which by the way she wouldn't explain to me). I got her to let me back in on a second chance but it's always been in the back of my mind that that was just to shut me up. Fast forward to yesterday, the day of finals. After praying most of the day I went to class and did my written final. Then we had demonstration (I'm studying to be a phelobotomist so we had to draw each other's blood). I was paired with my long time friend Gracie who loves to make jokes at the most inappropriate time, thus causing me to smile as I jab her with a needle. Well I didn't get blood (missed the vein and she wouldn't give me enough time to recover), but so did Joretta and Gracie. She said that getting blood wasn't a big thing it was your whole package. So I figured, hey, I've got a pretty good shot at passing (added to the fact I saw the certificate with my name on it). Well, just before class let's out, she calls me outside and tells me, guess what, she ISN'T passing me. She says that I'm not ready to go out into the world and support myself. That laughter in the workplace is inappropriate. And she's mad that I blew my bangs out of my eyes instead of lifting my hand off the adapter (thus ruining the draw) and pushing it out of my face. (I swear these were here exact words, plus a few more I can't remember). Well, turns out she knew before I even went into my final that I wasn't passing. She never graded our written final (I have it as evidence) and just handed out certificates to everyone...but me. This is another problem as she passed Joretta whom I fear with a needle. The woman hasn't gotten a decent draw since we started (I was in her clinical group, our teachers were saving her draws more times then not). But yet me, who has improved from not knowing what I was doing to getting good draws and getting an A on every test...doesn't pass and now I can't do the one thing in life I love. So that is my depressing college update. I failed. Or as mom says, "She failed you, you didn't fail." We're appealing the decision based on poor grading criteria, harassment, and discrimination. I don't know what I'll do if this falls though...maybe I can take the class again and she'll pass me just to get rid of me. I mean I know the work...anyone offering up an arm so I can prove it? Saitaina [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kerelsen at quik.com Thu Jun 27 01:18:32 2002 From: kerelsen at quik.com (Bernadette M. Crumb) Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 21:18:32 -0400 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Depressing College Update References: <20020626214908.21923.qmail@web13703.mail.yahoo.com> <015601c21d6d$68516240$d14e28d1@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <029401c21d78$90d2a480$d521b0d8@kerelsen> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Saitaina" SNIP account of instructor who sounds worse than Snape could ever be and shouldn't be teaching... > So that is my depressing college update. I failed. Or as mom says, "She failed you, you didn't fail." We're appealing the decision based on poor grading criteria, harassment, and discrimination. I don't know what I'll do if this falls though...maybe I can take the class again and she'll pass me just to get rid of me. I mean I know the work...anyone offering up an arm so I can prove it? If I lived anywhere near you, I'd be glad to volunteer for you to jab me. That really stinks. Make a huge fuss over it. Fight it tooth and nail... And don't just deal with the school... Tell them you're going to make it public. Talk to your local paper or TV news station. Talk to your representatives (are you in the States? Your state legislature reps often have clout with educational institutions... take advantage of it. No school wants the government down on their case, especially for something like this which IS discrimination, pure and simple). Let them know that they'll be watched while they review your case. I hope that your Provost or Dean or whoever deals with academic reviews is a decent person who will listen to you and be fair and honest about the shortcomings of the teacher, and will make the teacher give you the grade you deserve from your work, not her opinion. BTW, blowing bangs out of the eyes is a heck of a lot more acceptable to me than using a hand and mucking up the draw. And there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with laughter in the workplace. The lab tech who draws blood at my doc's office has a great sense of humor and by getting us laughing he makes the ordeal easier on all of us who are nervous about being jabbed! Wish I could give you a big sympathetic hug for real... but I hope a virtual one will do! HUGGLES! Bernadette/RowanRhys "Life's greatest happiness is to be convinced we are loved." - Victor Hugo, Les Miserables, 1862 From dradamsapple at yahoo.com Thu Jun 27 01:57:40 2002 From: dradamsapple at yahoo.com (dradamsapple) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 01:57:40 -0000 Subject: Depressing College Update In-Reply-To: <015601c21d6d$68516240$d14e28d1@oemcomputer> Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "Saitaina" wrote: > > I had been having problems with a teacher at my college who wanted to fail me, seemed to have wanted to fail me since the moment I walked through the door even though I have gotten A's on every written there is. I'm studying to be a phelobotomist so we had to draw each other's blood). I was paired with my long time friend Gracie who loves to make jokes at the most inappropriate time, thus causing me to smile as I jab her with a needle. Well I didn't get blood (missed the vein and she wouldn't give me enough time to recover), but so did Joretta and Gracie. She said that getting blood wasn't a big thing it was your whole package. So I figured, hey, I've got a pretty good shot at passing (added to the fact I saw the certificate with my name on it). > > I mean I know the work...anyone offering up an arm so I can prove it? > > Saitaina Saitaina, Here, I have a pretty good vein, kind of deep but strait in the middle! Let me know if you're in my area (Boston) and I'll be there with tourniquet, needle adapter, and a rainbow of tubes galore!! Oh, my God!! This "teacher", and yes, I am using QUOTATION MARKS because she obviously doesn't know how to teach properly, sounds like she's been burnt out from actually doing the work, so now she thinks she can teach it. Intimidation does not work in this line of work. Believe me, I know. I learned to draw in 1982 (yes, I'm old) on my fellow classmates as you are, but my first real patient was a young drug addict who was held to his bed in leather restraints (um, wait, . . . thoughts of a certain Slytherin keep distracting me). Ok, I'm back. Yes, it was a very intimidating incident, especially when he picked up right away that I was new at that sort of thing. My self confidence was extremely shaken. If your instructor is acting this way toward you when you have clearly shown that academically, you have succeded, then when you go out into the "real world" of phelebotomy, she will always be in the back of your head telling you that you are not good enough, and that is NOT going to make you succed. You need recourse. I would go to a higher authority, as it sounds you have. It does sound like your mom has a good head on her shoulders (YOU did not fail!!) and that you are going about this the right way. Maybe your "teacher" will volunteer her arm???!!! :P Good luck and keep us posted. Anna . . . > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From petcollector2001 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 27 02:24:57 2002 From: petcollector2001 at yahoo.com (petcollector2001) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 02:24:57 -0000 Subject: Expressing Emotions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., Jennifer Boggess Ramon wrote: > Not only many boys and teenagers, but many male actors under the age > of about 50, IMHO! Annoyance, anger, rage, yeah, they're all there - > but ask them to do something else . . . This is, in fact, the one > reason I like Keanu Reeves despite his occasional extreme woodenness What do you think of Brad Pitt? Manita From khirsah at gci.net Thu Jun 27 04:01:46 2002 From: khirsah at gci.net (Oren Bell Jr.) Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 20:01:46 -0800 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Depressing College Update Message-ID: <11ee48111ec93f.11ec93f11ee481@snowy.gci.net> I second this! I am terrified of having my blood drawn. (Yes, yes, I have actually passed out from it lol)...but having a friendly tech with a cheery smile and some innane conversation to keep my mind off of the unpleasantries helps me sooo much. ;0) I second the notion of contacting the local media. I am sure the school board will be much more apt to respond quickly to resolve this unfortuante situation. Please keep us posted, as we are rooting for you. Jennifer >Bernadette wrote: > > BTW, blowing bangs out of the eyes is a heck of a lot more > > acceptable to me than using a hand and mucking up the draw. And > > there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with laughter in the workplace. > > The lab tech who draws blood at my doc's office has a great sense > > of humor and by getting us laughing he makes the ordeal easier on > > all of us who are nervous about being jabbed! > From boggles at earthlink.net Thu Jun 27 04:47:37 2002 From: boggles at earthlink.net (Jennifer Boggess Ramon) Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 23:47:37 -0500 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Expressing Emotions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 2:24 AM +0000 6/27/02, petcollector2001 wrote: >--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., Jennifer Boggess Ramon >wrote: > > This is, in fact, the one > > reason I like Keanu Reeves despite his occasional extreme >woodenness > >What do you think of Brad Pitt? Loved him in _12 Monkeys_; thought he was OK in _Interview With The Vampire_; haven't seen much else with him in it. -- - Boggles, aka J. C. B. Ramon boggles at earthlink.net === Personal Growth Geek Code v0.4 === GG++ !T A-- M++s--- g+ B- C- P++++ a- b- h+ her++ E+ N n++ i f+ c++ S%++++&&># D R++ xc++ xm+ xi+ yd++ ys++(-) rt+ ro+ rp++++ rjk<+ ow+++ ofn+ oft++ op++ esk-- ey+ ek+++ pl++ pf++ pe++ U! From goku_n_vegeta_02 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 27 05:25:44 2002 From: goku_n_vegeta_02 at yahoo.com (Shaynie) Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 22:25:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Depressing College Update In-Reply-To: <015601c21d6d$68516240$d14e28d1@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <20020627052544.30458.qmail@web21304.mail.yahoo.com> Good luck. I always felt like my teachers hated me the first time they layed eyes on me but with most it turned out that at one point in time I was there fave. My fourth grade teacher once went through my essay in front of the whole class and corected everything and humiliating me! Um okay, I'm going OT. Good luck anyway! Shaynie :) >>>>Saitaina wrote: So that is my depressing college update. I failed. Or as mom says, "She failed you, you didn't fail." We're appealing the decision based on poor grading criteria, harassment, and discrimination. I don't know what I'll do if this falls though...maybe I can take the class again and she'll pass me just to get rid of me. I mean I know the work...anyone offering up an arm so I can prove it? >>>>>>>>>> From petcollector2001 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 27 11:30:20 2002 From: petcollector2001 at yahoo.com (petcollector2001) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 11:30:20 -0000 Subject: Brad Pitt In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., Jennifer Boggess Ramon wrote: > At 2:24 AM +0000 6/27/02, petcollector2001 wrote: > >What do you think of Brad Pitt? > > Loved him in _12 Monkeys_; Me, too. His best, I think. Manita From editor at texas.net Thu Jun 27 12:37:58 2002 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 07:37:58 -0500 Subject: Old lady's opinion, was Expressing Emotions References: Message-ID: <003e01c21dd7$7905e9c0$a07663d1@texas.net> I haven't been following this too closely, but I think two young actors destined for greatness are Josh Hartnett (who I loved in Blow Dry) and Sean Biggerstaff (who was in Tango at the End of Winter, as well as Harry Potter). They seem to have a full range of emotional ability, and they seem very real onscreen. --Amanda From mercia at ireland.com Thu Jun 27 22:43:57 2002 From: mercia at ireland.com (meglet2) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 22:43:57 -0000 Subject: Flying Hedgehogs Message-ID: Can anyone give me a reference number for Alexander's post in which he introduced the Russian saying about the paranoid searching the trees for flying hedgehogs? Believe it or not I want to quote it in an essay on state repression in Latin America (long story - email me off line if you're interested) and the Yahoo search engine absolutely refuses to admit to any reference to every varation of flying hedgehogs that I can think of, including Eloise's OOTFH. Very frustrating as I know it's out there somewhere! I'm sure I haven't imagined it! Or is that just the creeping paranoia. Many thanks Mercia From cindysphynx at comcast.net Thu Jun 27 23:01:43 2002 From: cindysphynx at comcast.net (cindysphynx) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 23:01:43 -0000 Subject: Flying Hedgehogs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi, Mercia, > Can anyone give me a reference number for Alexander's post in which > he introduced the Russian saying about the paranoid searching the > trees for flying hedgehogs? I think the best place to start would be in Hypothetic Alley: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin% 20Files/hypotheticalley.htm#hedgehog If you don't find it in the links there, just poke around a bit -- I believe it is in the vicinity of the cited posts. Good luck! Cindy From mercia at ireland.com Thu Jun 27 23:44:18 2002 From: mercia at ireland.com (meglet2) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 23:44:18 -0000 Subject: un petit cadeau du Canada In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "lupinesque" wrote: > >> The other exception was that I bought myself a French copy of PA, > excusing myself with the argument that it would be a great way to > practice my French. Actually, it really is. If in another lifetime > I'm a foreign language teacher, I'll recommend the technique of > reading a book one knows very, very well in one's native tongue. I'm > reading it really slowly, absorbing grammatical rules I'd long since > forgotten, and picking up vast amounts of French vocabulary: hibou > (owl), balai (broomstick), baguette (wand), Chocogrenouille > (Chocolate Frog). I'm sure they will come in handy next time I'm in > a French-speaking country. ;-) > Hi Amy Lucky you, I'm really envious. I would love to see a French edition (presumably 'Le prisonier d'Azkaban') that being the only other language I have any reasonable comptetence in reading. And you're right it is fun picking up new vocabulary that way. I'm intrigued by the way, thinking about how things might be traslated, with what they do with Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Prongs or indeed the word nickname. Is that nom de plume or nom de guerre or something in French? Anyway the whole concept is rather English public school. I imagine the French find it a bit bizarre. But I'm sure the translators have coped. Enjoy your reading! I bet it adds a whole new dimension. The cover illustrations alone seem to have been worth the price! Mercia From dizzylizzy182 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 28 07:20:25 2002 From: dizzylizzy182 at yahoo.com (Elizabeth Sager) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 00:20:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sait's depressing college news and HP's fifth In-Reply-To: <1025200111.376.83726.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20020628072025.99022.qmail@web40007.mail.yahoo.com> <> Aww, I'm sorry Sait. :( I'm afraid of needles, but I'm sure you could club me over the head to get me to submit. :) It sounds like a problem that I had with my Health teacher as a freshman (only the school year before last, yeesh). He's the worst cross between Professor Snape and Mad-Eye Moody that you could possibly get. I had the same trouble that you had with your teacher, and the only thing that would save my grade was if I passed the CPR test. Well, he *tried* to flunk me, but my entire class (that saw me do it correctly, thank you very much!) argued on my behalf. Sigh. Sometimes I love my classmates (and other times I want to kill them, but that's another story for another time). So, if you need someone CPR-certified, I'm your gal. ;) ----- ...on a happier note, Harry Potter's five! *sets off shooting stars in Kent, blames it on Dedalus Diggle* Liz (with major apologies for lurkage) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com From saitaina at wizzards.net Fri Jun 28 07:25:48 2002 From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 00:25:48 -0700 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Sait's depressing college news and HP's fifth References: <20020628072025.99022.qmail@web40007.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <026501c21e75$07427d00$874e28d1@oemcomputer> Liz wrote: Thanks but already certified in that. I needed that before the phlebotomy and passed with flying colours. Saitaina ***** Kate: "Supervisor Caffrey shot himself.." Spivey: "It happens." Kate: "In the back of his head? He wrapped himself in plastic and he locked himself into the back of his car?" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mercia at ireland.com Fri Jun 28 12:01:47 2002 From: mercia at ireland.com (meglet2) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 12:01:47 -0000 Subject: Flying Hedgehogs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I think the best place to start would be in Hypothetic Alley: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin% > 20Files/hypotheticalley.htm#hedgehog > > If you don't find it in the links there, just poke around a bit -- I > believe it is in the vicinity of the cited posts. > Cindy Many thanks. I got the exact quote, which I had slightly misremembered so I am very gateful for the help. I will also return to hypotheic alley sometime for a good browse. Looks great fun! Mercia From lupinesque at yahoo.com Fri Jun 28 13:22:52 2002 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (lupinesque) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 13:22:52 -0000 Subject: un petit cadeau du Canada In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Mercia wrote: > Lucky you, I'm really envious. I would love to see a French edition If you don't have a friend in a French-speaking country, you can always mail-order it. > I'm intrigued by the way, thinking about how things might be > traslated, with what they do with Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and > Prongs or indeed the word nickname. Is that nom de plume or nom de > guerre or something in French? I'm happy to spout such trivia, as I'm sure the native French speakers here would be also. Moony=Lunard (obvious) Queudver=Wormtail (queue-de-ver, "worm tail") Patmol=Padfoot (? "Patte" means pad, but according to my dictionary, it's used for a rabbit's pad but not for a cat or dog's. Still, that must be part of it) Prongs=Cornedrue (corne is antler--I don't get the rest of the etymology) The verb for "give a nickname" is surnommer, and that's the word Lupin uses when he says that Lunard is what his friends called him. I just happened across "Harry" in my French-English dictionary and it gives the French translation as "Riri," seemingly under the logic that that's the usual nickname for Henri, the way Harry is a nickname for Henry. Very fortunately the translator doesn't change Harry's name . I'm only on chapter 2 (this is slow going!) but I got interested in the formal/familiar question and skipped ahead. Lupin calls Harry "vous" throughout; Sirius calls Harry "tu" from the start. This seems right for a teacher/student relationship, and heaven knows I don't get the subtle distinctions that cause people to choose formal or familiar, but it is still striking because Lupin knows Harry so well and Sirius doesn't know him at all. His use of the familiar suggests that as far as he's concerned, he's Harry's godfather and knows him intimately. I like it. Of course, maybe Sirius is just a boor, because he calls Snape "tu" also, which Lupin (despite being notably on a one-way first-name basis with him) does not. The creature names are intriguing too. Grindylow is "strangulot"; Dementor is "Detraqueur" (detraquer means to go crazy). Boggart is "epouvantard" (epouvante is terror). Can anyone here explain the origin of "Moldu" for Muggle? Aimee/Amie Z who never noticed the play on words in "Aunt Marge's Big Mistake" 'til she saw it in French, nor caught the possible significance of dedicating PoA to "the *godmothers* of swing" 'til she noticed the "marraines" ("parrain" is godfather) From skelkins at attbi.com Fri Jun 28 17:41:43 2002 From: skelkins at attbi.com (ssk7882) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 17:41:43 -0000 Subject: Flying Hedgehogs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi, Mercia. Alexander first used the quote as a part of his .sig in message number 34520. Eloise followed up on it in the messages cited in Hypothetic Alley. Searching for that first hedgehog reference, I also came across an acronym that Alexander coined. H.P.F.G.U. Hedgehogs Prefer Firs -- Great and Useful. -- Elkins (proud to be herself not a member of the OFH, but instead a genuine flying hedgehog) From mercia at ireland.com Fri Jun 28 22:48:24 2002 From: mercia at ireland.com (meglet2) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 22:48:24 -0000 Subject: Flying Hedgehogs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "ssk7882" wrote: > Hi, Mercia. > > Alexander first used the quote as a part of his .sig in > message number 34520. Eloise followed up on it in the > messages cited in Hypothetic Alley. > Elkins Many thanks to you too. Only now I feel I need to find out who Pavel Shumilov is! When I tried a google search on the name all the sites I was directed to were in Russian and I literally could not read a word since I know not one character of the Russian alphabet. Life is never simple is it! But the quote is just so delicious I can't resist using it anyway. Mercia, hoping my tutor won't push me too hard on the sources of my information. From losangelis at yahoo.com Sat Jun 29 17:22:46 2002 From: losangelis at yahoo.com (losangelis) Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 17:22:46 -0000 Subject: Ideas for Class Message-ID: Greetings! I just wanted to say how cool it has been to be a lurker in this group. I love so many of the discussions you have on the intricacies of the HP books. I am going to be teaching a sixth grade enrichment course this summer, two weeks in all, to students who have read all four books. I'm excited about it, as we are doing Potter Trivia, playing quidditch, having a Tri-Wizards Tournament at a local maze, and finishing up with a Yule Ball. However, I want to have some really good discussions going above and beyond just the trivia of the book. I'd like them to challenge themselves, find some good websites, and do some projects based on the books. In particular, I want to have some good discussion topics, similar to the ones we see on this list. I was hoping to pick your brains and see what you think would be some of the neatest topics to go with. Some I am already thinking about: Name Origins Comparisons of the Old Four (Lupin, Black, Potter, and Pettigrew) to the New Four (Granger, Weasley, Potter, and Longbottom) Predictions for the rest of the series...what we think could and should happen. What else do you all think would be some thought-provoking ideas? If you have some suggestions, feel free to post them or email me directly. I'd love to see kind of a "Top Ten" list of favorite topics that would be appropriate for these young people who are already quite well-versed in the books. Some "thinker" kind of topics, that these lists are so good at coming up with. Thanks in advance. Curt From catlady at wicca.net Sat Jun 29 23:40:57 2002 From: catlady at wicca.net (catlady_de_los_angeles) Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 23:40:57 -0000 Subject: Ideas for Class In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at y..., "losangelis" wrote: > Comparisons of the Old Four (Lupin, Black, Potter, and Pettigrew) to > the New Four (Granger, Weasley, Potter, and Longbottom) This is an unhelpful nitpick. It is not certain that the New Four are Granger, Weasley, Potter, and Longbottom. The Three are certain, but you might start by discussing whether the fourth is Longbottom or Ginny Weasley or Colin Creevey or someone else. You could start with discussing Who is the New Fourth. The Three is already unlike the Four in that one of the Three is a girl while the Four were all boys, so there is room for imaging that the New Fourth could differ from the Old Fourth by being in a different year (or a different House, but I can't pick a plausible candidate from another House). In fact, you might want to start a step further back, with discussion of the Three is really going to turn into a Four. Just how powerful in the tendency of wizard's lives to fall into inherited patterns? In an epic whose narrator preaches that 'it is our choices which make us what we are', surely characters must have *some* abiility to choose NOT to follow the pattern. On the other hand, when names fit character so closely, how could any Malfoy choose to be good? From ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com Sun Jun 30 00:01:21 2002 From: ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com (Petra Pan) Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 17:01:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The Many Tongues of HP In-Reply-To: <1025118481.1980.14839.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20020630000121.37177.qmail@web21102.mail.yahoo.com> Amy, on her almost HP-less week in Quebec: > I bought myself a > French copy of PA, > excusing myself with the argument that it would > be a great way to > practice my French. I too highly recommend this technique...so glad to hear someone else mention it! :) In case you haven't heard, if you are (or know someone who is going to) studying the classic languages of Latin or ancient Greek, you should know that at the end of the year 2001, it was announced that HPPS will be translated into those two languages and published in 2003. Talk about a boon to teachers of those languages! Haven't heard anything else since then. Hmm, 2003 looks to be a very busy year for JKR's publishers unless they manage to publish OoP in 2002. Since I now own the HP books in every language (2 total) that I have ever learned, I wonder if at my "advanced" age I can learn yet another language? > Actually, it really is. > If in another lifetime > I'm a foreign language teacher, I'll recommend > the technique of > reading a book one knows very, very well in > one's native tongue. To go one step further: if you can find audiotapes to go along with said books, you can sharpen your verbal comprehension too. Back in college, I discovered that I understood Shakespeare so much better when I read along with the BBC videotapes. Yes, I do consider Elizabethan English a "foreign language." Just hearing the text performed as I scan the passages improved my understanding drastically - it was like night and day - and the whole concept of scansion finally gelled for me. Sadly, I find the selection of books on tapes for non-English languages rather limited. This is why I tend to recommend the read-along technique to those who are trying to learn English rather than the vice versa. Language aside, who performs the story makes a huge difference. I have heard many books on tapes (while stuck in LA traffic) that were just awful. But I have yet to tire of Stephen Fry or Jim Dale (best tonic for road rage). Both are heads and shoulders above the fray...with Mr. Fry just slightly taller. In hindsight, I know now that I really should have splurged and bought the more durable CD's of the UK versions. > I have a report for you Sirius lovers out > there: the back cover has > the studliest Sirius I've ever seen. > I'll > scan them in if I can, because there are > websites with the front > cover (same as the French) but I've never seen > one with the back. > Don't hold your breath, though. I don't have a > scanner. Ooh! I don't suppose you process your films with those services that uploads them to websites?!? Petra a n :) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Sun Jun 30 13:58:42 2002 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (grey_wolf_c) Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 13:58:42 -0000 Subject: Ideas for Class In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Curt wrote: > Greetings! > > I am going to be teaching a sixth grade enrichment course this > summer, two weeks in all, to students who have read all four books. > I'm excited about it, as we are doing Potter Trivia, playing > quidditch, having a Tri-Wizards Tournament at a local maze, and > finishing up with a Yule Ball. > > > However, I want to have some really good discussions going above and > beyond just the trivia of the book. I'd like them to challenge > themselves, find some good websites, and do some projects based on > the books. In particular, I want to have some good discussion > topics, similar to the ones we see on this list. I was hoping to > pick your brains and see what you think would be some of the neatest > topics to go with. > > > Some I am already thinking about: (snipped) > > What else do you all think would be some thought-provoking ideas? > > If you have some suggestions, feel free to post them or email me > directly. I'd love to see kind of a "Top Ten" list of favorite > topics that would be appropriate for these young people who are > already quite well-versed in the books. Some "thinker" kind of > topics, that these lists are so good at coming up with. > > > Thanks in advance. > > Curt Hi, Curt, and welcome into the posting half of the HP4GU! I don't know what age 6th year kids are, but if they're 12+ years old, many of the threads of the main list can be appropiate, if they've got enough knowledge of the books (and I seem to recall that at 12 my memory was excellent for the kind of details we need in this list), so go ahead and look through the 40k messages. You'll find more than your share of ideas, surely. Anyway, there are a few I'd put forward myself. For example, a few off the top of my head: 1) What's so important about Harry's eyes? 2) What's the glint in Dumbledore's eyes (GoF), is it something to do with a flaw in Voldemort's potion? 3) Are house-elves enslaved? Is Hermione correct in trying to liberate them? Or is Hagrid correct when saying that they shouldn't? (I'm very immersed in this debate, Curt, so if you need more material then you'll ever want to plough through, contact me. Same to everyone else) 4) Quidditch rules: does giving 150 points and finishing the game for catching the snitch make the non-seeker players redundant? 5) (FB&WTFT) What's a suitable definition for beast? 6) (For comical purposes only) Come up with the 700 faults of Quidditch 7) Animagus: what determines the shape? Is it selected by the wizard? can it be changed? 8) Should a werewolf be allowed in Hogwarts (as student or teacher), even with snape preparing the wofbane potion? 9) Discuss Lockharts shortcomings: what is most wrong about his acts? 10) Should students learn to cast unforgivables (in 7th year)? They can be used against dangerous (XXXXX) creatures as self-defence, and aurors had to use them too. 11) Could a muggle prepare potions? Why (or why not)? 12) If a Hogwarts inter-house Quidditch game lasts over a day, do the stundents stop playing without catching the snitch, or do they go on for days (skipping classes, sleeping, eating, etc.) until they do catch it, as by the rules? You could also take loads of them from Philip Nel's: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/ Discussion%20Summaries/DISCUSSION%20QUESTIONS%20FROM%20PHILIP%20NEL.htm (I think the list is there to be used by anyone, but, being easy to contact, since he has posted on the list, you should contact him before using any of them). Anyway, I hope some of those are not considered too "adult" for 6th grade (we could be speaking about 8 year olds, for all I know), but I don't think children, even small ones, can be too stupid for a good though-provoking discussion. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf, who just came back to the lists after a much needed post-exams rest. From petcollector2001 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 30 18:11:21 2002 From: petcollector2001 at yahoo.com (petcollector2001) Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 18:11:21 -0000 Subject: Scholastic Books offers spell-casting primer for kids Message-ID: Scholastic Books offers spell-casting primer for kids Kids who are eagerly awaiting the publication of the fifth book of the Harry Potter series and are looking for other, similar books to read while they wait can go to the Harry Potter page of the website of Scholastic Books, the publisher of the Harry Potter series in the United States, and click on links to other Scholastic pages devoted to similar topics. One such Potter link is: http://www.scholastic.com/titles/twitches/magick.asp Here, they can click on the "Magickal Tips Archive" to get advice on how to cast spells. These spells are not comical fabrications by J. K. Rowling, which we are told have no connection to real witchcraft, but are a kids' version of the spells employed by Wicca and other witchcraft ritual-performing religious groups. Scholastic's Harry Potter page, in contrast, also has a spell-writing section, but it is based on the invented spells in the Harry Potter series. Manita Christiansen From skelkins at attbi.com Sun Jun 30 21:10:03 2002 From: skelkins at attbi.com (ssk7882) Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 21:10:03 -0000 Subject: Editing literature to conform to current custom Message-ID: This is a potentially inflammatory topic, but I really did feel the need to respond. If people wish to follow up, please let us all try to remain civil. In a discussion on the main list about the insertion of Dean Thomas in the sorting ceremony of the first book, Amanda wrote: > But I must throw to you my personal least-favorite > literature change, from the Just So Stories by Kipling, > from "How the Leopard Got His Spots." After the Ethiopian > has changed his skin to black, and then dotted the leopard > all over with his fingertips (nicely explaining the little > rosettes of dots), and the leopard asks why the Ethiopian > doesn't go for spots too, what Kipling originally wrote was, > "Plain black's best for a nigger." In every single copy I > have seen that was printed within, say, the last 20 years > (at least), this has been changed to remove "nigger." That's your *least* favorite editorial change in the history of all literature, Amanda? Really? > This alteration offends me because it changes the words the > author chose. One thing to keep in mind about "Just So Stories" is that it is a children's book. It was written for children (as well as for adults), and it is read by children (as well as by adults). Many of the currently available editions of this book are marketted specifically for children. One of the things to consider about young readers is that they do not have the historical knowledge that adults do. If they learn vocabulary from a book, they are likely to believe that it is acceptable vocabulary for use in their everyday lives. "Nigger" is *not* an acceptable term in most circles of contemporary English-speaking society, for reasons that younger readers might well not yet have the background or the knowledge to appreciate. "That is the parents' job." Well, yes. But children don't only read with their parents. They also read on their own. Reading is in fact how many children -- particularly bookish and anti-social children, like the child that I once was -- learn much of their vocabulary. I certainly didn't discuss every word that I learned from reading with my parents. Most of it I just soaked up, deducing from context what various words meant and how they were properly used (although not, alas, how they were pronounced -- weird pronunciation is often the hallmark of somebody who learned more from reading than from speaking and listening). So while for an adult reader who understands the historical context in which Kipling was writing, and who is hip to the fact that usage has changed a bit since his time, the editorial change might be an annoyance, it strikes me that such a change serves a perfectly reasonable pragmatic function in a book that is marketed to children. It prevents younger readers from coming to the incorrect assumption that Kipling's usage of this word means that it is an appropriate, polite, or value- neutral word for them to be using in a similar context. > Those words came from an older culture and value system, but > they are the words he wrote. I object to changing them to > pander to the sensibilities of a modern audience. "Pander?" Pandering means *pimping.* In this context, it would mean "raping" the text, violating its author's intent to satisfy the demands of a hostile or uncaring audience. Now, Kipling wasn't exactly a PC sort of fellow even in his own day, but I really don't think that his use of the word there was intended to be offensive. I don't really believe that the author's intent there was to use an extremely derogatory term with the weight of generations of enslavement, colonialism and oppression behind it just to make some aesthetic or philosophical point. That is really not how I, at any rate, read the authorial intent behind the use of the word in the passage you cited. So I'm afraid that I can't quite see the editorial change as "pandering." It is not pandering. It is a form of translation designed to keep the book accessable to readers who lack an adult's understanding of history and usage (ie, children) without leading those readers astray as to what constitutes acceptable or polite usage in the time and place in which *they* are living. The edition of "Just So Stories" which I read as a child, by the way, retained Kipling's original phrase. In fact, I believe that it may well have been the first place that I ever even *encountered* the word, as I grew up in a very homogenous community where the N Word was held to be an Unforgivable (I never even heard it spoken aloud until I became an adult). I seem to remember coming to the conclusion that the word meant "Ethiopian." Fortunately, I never actually put this new and exciting bit of vocabulary to the test before learning both what the word really meant and the nature of its contemporary cultural significance. But other children in similar situations might not have been so lucky. -- Elkins (who also devoured unedited Enid Blytons as a child, and who doesn't think that they have been harmed in the least by recent decisions to edit them for contemporary children's consumption)