Class Rank and Average Children (WAS Vanity/Self-Esteem / )

[cindysphynx]

Naama wrote:

> Fighting vanity, once such an important paedagogical 
> principle (remember Marilla in Anne of Green Gables?), seems to 
>have gone completely out of fashion, hasn't it? Now it's all about 
>making your child feel good about herself, giving her a lot of 
>positive reinforcement, etc. 


<snip>

>I'm sure that many 
> parents push their children out of real anxiety as to their future 
> prospects. Doing well in school isn't only something for parents 
>to brag about. It can actually mean a huge difference in the 
>child's future standard of living. 

Catlady replied:

>One thing in the modern world 
> that is *surely* bad for *everyone's* self-esteem is television, 


Here's one idea to throw into the pot.  I think one thing that could 
be undermining self-esteem is the tremendous amount of *ranking* of 
people that goes on.  You get grades -- someone else's assessment of 
how you stack up -- from the time you are five years old.  In high 
school and college, this morphs into an actual class rank -- 200 
people are *better* than you are, and 250 are worse.  (I always 
wondered how the person at the rock bottom felt about this.)  

You know what?  I attended a university that, despite all manner of 
pressure to the contrary, *does not* issue class rank *or* a GPA.  
You got grades (but there only 4 grade levels, but almost all marks 
were in the top 2 grade levels), but no one could say they were tops 
in their class because there was no ranking.

This seemed to *torture* employers who interviewed us for jobs.  
They would have my transcript with all of my grades and classes as 
well as a resume, but they would still ask, "What's your class 
rank/GPA?"  I'd tell them that the school doesn't compute that 
information.  And they just hated that, because they couldn't make a 
snap comparison among applicants.  No, they had to delve into your 
background, observe how you present yourself, look at the sorts of 
classes you took.  It freaked them right out.  They'd sometimes even 
ask me to *guess* what my ranking might be.  

Yet I had classmates who *hated* this system of grading.  They were 
so trained up to be tops in their classes that they were 
uncomfortable when not given the opportunity to demonstrate their 
superiority over everyone else.

I think more and more schools are starting to figure out that the 
emphasis on grades and class rank is not a positive development.  I 
once went to the campus of a well-regarded law school to interview 
applicants for jobs at a law firm.  This school had just instituted 
a new system to handle grades and transcripts.  The interviewer was 
given resumes for all of the students who had requested interviews.  
Students were forbidden to disclose their grades or rank on the 
resume or during the interview.  I was *not* given their transcript 
until *after* all the interviews were completed.  The idea was that 
this would encourage the interviewer to focus less on grades and 
rank and more on the person.  

And it *really* worked.  The upshot was that I would interview 
someone, I would be impressed with how they presented themselves and 
what they had done.  Then I would get the transcript and would see 
borderline grades.  But by that point, I was so *taken* with the 
person as a person that I was willing to advocate their hiring for 
all the right reasons -- that they present themselves well and that 
they have done *well enough* in their classes to demonstrate that 
they can do the work.  

On the other hand, I would sometimes see a candidate who was a total 
Toad.  Couldn't hold a conversation, couldn't string two sentences 
together, no interesting experience on the resume.  By the end of 
the interview, I was sufficiently underwhelmed that I wouldn't be 
considering them as a potential hire.  Then I'd get the transcript 
and see that they had top marks.  Usually, if you saw a student with 
top marks, you felt some pressure to hire them.  I mean, they have 
the best *qualifications* because of those grades, don't they?  
Despite this, I *still* wouldn't want to hire them because they 
really weren't the best candidate, despite the high marks.  

I thought that this system was really a major improvement.  But I 
heard that many of the students at that school didn't like the 
system.  The top students figured that they were being robbed of 
jobs to which they were automatically entitled because of their high 
grades.

I wrote:
 
> After all, we don't label non-gifted children as underachievers if
> they do not reach goals they set for themselves or if they don't 
> reach some objective measure of achievement. 
 

Catlady replied:


> Sure we do. Whoever heard of a parent being satisfied with their 
>IQ = 100 child bringing home 'averaqe' grades?

This is rather interesting.  I have a child who is, er, average 
academically.  The first thing I'd say is that parents of children 
who are average may well have no idea what the IQ is.  For what 
possible reason would I go out and have my child tested for IQ?  So 
right there, you don't have any reason to be wondering whether your 
child is an underachiever in the sense Shaun defined it.  

OK, then.  Are parents of children who bring home "average grades" 
satisfied or dissatisfied?  Well, it varies, of course.  The parents 
who react most strongly to this, IMHO, seem to snag all of the 
headlines, don't they?  They may have their children tested and 
assessed, looking for some evidence of a disability that can be 
easily remedied or other explanation for the average performance.  
They may hound the teachers or question the marks.  They may switch 
schools.  They may hiring tutors.  They may wind up "helping" the 
child with the homework just a little too much.  I wish them luck 
with all of that.

But some of us (including parents of average students who will 
discuss this if you get a few drinks into them) decide to just 
accept the situation.  I mean, this realization that your child is 
average doesn't come on suddenly.  From the age of 5, you kind of 
notice that your child is doing "fine."  Their weaknesses show up on 
report card after report card.  And you yourself observe that, no 
matter how much study goes into a certain subject, they just never 
really seem to be able to outdo the other kids academically.

And after enough years of this, you realize that, well, your kid is 
just average academically.  Oh, they have their strengths.  They are 
learning, and they *get* their schoolwork.  They are not lost or 
frustrated.  They might even have their successes in other areas -- 
music, sport, social popularity.  They're happy overall and not 
Bent.  It's just that . . . well . . . they aren't going to blow 
anyone's socks off in the classroom unless something changes rather 
dramatically.  

So you have a decision to make -- are you going to accept this, or 
are you going to fight it?  My view is that nothing good will come 
from constantly registering my disapproval.  I think I'll just 
accept my kid the way she is.  She works hard, she is diligent, and 
a fair few other kids seem to be better academically than she is.  I 
really don't think pressuring her will do any good, because she's 
not *stupid*.  She knows that she isn't making top marks, although I 
suspect she'd love to make top marks.  But she's doing the best she 
can, and that is just going to have to be good enough.  And I won't 
be waiting by the mailbox for that Harvard admission letter to 
arrive.

Catlady (about my own lack of gifted or profoundly gifted statsu):

> I don't know if you ever *took* an IQ test, but I *sure* that if 
>you did, you would score as gifted or profoundly gifted. 

Aw, that's really nice of you, Catlady!

But no, no high IQ here, I'm afraid.  I don't know for sure what 
gets tested on an IQ test, but I'd imagine that spatial relations 
tasks come up a fair amount.  And I was born with *no* ability to do 
tasks requiring spatial relations.  I cannot even match the 
Tupperware with the right lid, for heaven's sake.  I just don't have 
what it takes to visualize *anything*.

That's OK, though.  Did you know that they put a number on the lid 
of the Tupperware and a number on the bottom?  All you have to do is 
match the numbers up.  Problem solved!  ;-)

Cindy (who was once given a gift consisting of a little puzzle that 
had two pieces of metal that were intertwined, and the game was that 
you were supposed to unhook them, and who worked on this puzzle for 
a long time and then threw it directly in the trash)