[HPFGU-OTChatter] Gifted children

[Shaun Hately]

> 
> Shaun said:
> >Schools, without gifted programs, are actually disastrous in this regard - when a 
> >gifted child is simply expected to do the same work as everyone else, they will often 
> >find it *incredibly* easy. And that means they will not learn the skills and discipline 
> >needed to deal with schoolwork when it starts requiring more than just the ability to 
> >think fast. The schooling I went through for example, was meant to require 15 
> >minutes of homework per night from age 5-8, 30 minutes from 9-11, 1 hour at 12, 
> >90 minutes at 13, two hours from 14-15, and two and half hours from 16-17.
> >For most kids, these numbers were accurate - for me, no way. From age 5-13, I 
> >very rarely needed to do more than 5 minutes a night. Suddenly at 14, the work load 
> >increased dramatically - I had about an hour to do a night. It was still less than most 
> >were doing - but where they had had a gradual chance to develop the skills and 
> >discipline needed, I didn't. I had to make a big jump. >I did it - but a lot don't.
> 
> Hmmm...I never really had to do any homework at all (aside from projects and research 
> reports) until I came to MSSM.  That is, if by homework, you mean schoolwork 
> that is actually done at *home*...I had daily assignments of course, but I usually 
> finished them just after the class was over/right before the class started/during 
> lunch period after eating...basically whenever I was bored and/or had nothing to
> do.

Well, homework can be a lot of things. What it was for me, was a mixture of 
projects/research type reports and extra work of precisely the same type as we'd 
done in class to 'reinforce' our learning - the last bit I didn't actually need. I didn't 
need reinforcement, but I had to do the work anyway. Generally it was pretty quick - 
about 5 minutes a night until I hit Year 9 when they started loading us with work that 
was designed to take time. And we basically did have to do it at home (well, I was a 
boarder for much of the time so I did it at school but in my own time after school). 
We didn't have any time between classes, our lunch time was very limited, etc.
 
> When I came to MSSM, I got my first experience with schoolwork with which I 
> actually needed to spend a good chunk of time on...of course, all assigned work 
> here is, by default, done at "home"...we have no study halls and teachers are 
> *very* strict not letting you do the next day's assignment in class that day...also, if > a teacher doesn't teach the entire period (very rare), we are let out for the 
> remainder of the period...to go back "home".

Heh - this sounds very familiar (-8

> >As for putting up grades, for EG/PG kids (though often not for others) this often 
> >decreases the social gap, as well as the academic gap - a EG/PG 5 year old is more 
> >likely to make friends, especially close friends, in a class of 10 year olds than one of 
> >5 year olds. This is a very specific group - not necessarily representative of gifted 
> >children in general - but for them it works.
> 
> Although this is likely to turn the PG child into a bit of a mascot...some kids might > not mind this..but in my experience, intelligent people really *hate* to be 
> patronized.

Yes, if it is patronising - most of the time it isn't.
 
> Also...as for the whole resentment issue...older kids getting showed up by some 
> brainy squirt in their class are *very* likely to be cruel to said squirt.  Or, at the 
> very least, routinely pretend that he or she doesn't exist.

It depends on how it is done. This is something approaching my specialty - bullying 
was something I had to endure, and so I spend a lot of time looking to find ways of 
insulating the kids I work with from it.

What research has shown - and I've seen it personally in over 50 cases, with only 1 
exception - is that the type of cruelty you describe is only likely if there is a less than 
two year age gap between the older kids and the younger one. If the gap is larger 
than that, cruelty is exceedingly rare.

PG kids, if they are accelerated, tend to have acceleration of more than two years - 
three or four is common - which bypasses that two year problem. And if it is done 
properly, they won't be showing up other students - the idea is to put them into a 
class where their ability level is about the same as the average student in that class.

Acceleration, though, is quite often not handled very well at all - the most common 
form is the 'grade skip' where there is only a one year gap. That can work for some 
kids - but can also create real problems.

You say, in you experience. Part of the problem here may be that I am talking about 
a particular group - EG/PG kids - for whom this does work. There's no way of 
knowing whether the experiences you have concerned them or not.

And it's something people like me have to deal with a lot. Most people have virtually 
no experience of PGness - 0.0002 of the population, 1 in 5000 kids. What works for 
a lot of kids - including a lot of gifted kids - doesn't necessarily work for them. And 
vice versa.
 
> >You will be addressing their social needs by putting them in a group where they 
> >have a lot more in common socially than they would with the five year olds - a group 
> >for whom friendship is more sophisticated, for whom games are more sophisticated, 
> >etc, a group the kid fits into more than they would the 5 year olds. This is what all 
> >the evidence concerning these kids shows.
> 
> Evidence or no, my experience doesn't affirm your ascertain.  Yes, it would seem > that PG kids would have more in common with older children, however...older
> doesn't always mean better/more mature.  

Well, no, it doesn't - older, as a general rule, does mean more mature (the two 
terms are synonyms) but there are exceptions.

When it comes to profoundly gifted children, these kids do to tend to be more 
mature, more emotionally and socially developed than their chronological age would 
indicate, in the vast majority of cases. There are exceptions - both among the PG 
kids, and the older kids - but PG kids do have more in common with older kids, as a 
rule.

Profound giftedness has been studied formally for about 60 years now. Every single 
formal and organised study has made pretty much the same findings.

>  For instance, putting a 8 year old with 12 year olds is a sure way to alienate the 8 
> year old.  Esp. with girls.  The whole puberty thing nonwithstanding...the attitudes 
> of pre-teenage girls towards each other/boys/looks/whatever are sure to upset and 
> confuse an 8 year old.  I don't know about preteen guys...but 11-13 yr. old girls are 
> tigers.  You don't want to expose an 8 year old to them in a school environment.  
> Best case scenario: they treat the PG child like a barely-sentient pet...Worst case > scenario: they eat the kid alive.  

Ah no - years of experience here, personal knowledge of over 50 cases, detailed 
knowledge of another 200 cases, and an intimate knowledge of 60 years of research 
(-8

This is part of the problem I have to deal with in advocating for these kids - people 
just *assume* they know what will happen, sometimes based on their experiences - 
unless their experiences have been with PG kids, they really do not know what will 
work and what is needed.

Unfortunately most of the books on exceptionally and profoundly gifted children are 
fairly hard to get hold of (the best study "Exceptionally Gifted Children: What 
Research Tells Us" by Miraca Gross was last printed in 1995, and sold out 
completely by 1996), and most of the scholarly articles on them appear in a 
particular journal which relatively few libraries - even academic ones - bother to get 
copies of (The Roeper Review).

These kids tend to flourish when radically accelerated - girls more so than boys. The 
cases where it works - in terms of happiness levels, etc (which are more important 
to whether it succeeds or not than the mere academic) outnumber those where it 
doesn't by over 20 to 1.
 
>  PG children are very likely to form close, healthy friendships with adults, yes.  
> But not with older children.  Older children are still just that -- CHILDREN...it'd be > like pulling teeth to try to get an eight grader to look at child 2-5 years younger as > a potential friend/peer.  Even if that child was as or more emotionally mature than > the eight grader...

It doesn't work that way - because bear in mind, we don't need *all* the kids to want 
to be friends, nor even most of them. One will do. And while a lot of kids won't look 
at younger kids as friends, some will.

A PG child in a *typical* aged based classroom has about a 5% chance of 
developing a close friendship. A PG child in an ability appropriate class has about a 
60-80% chance of doing so depending on the level of schooling (it's around 60% up 
until 5th grade, 70% from 6-8th grade, and 80% after that) despite age differences.

Not all will make friends - but the odds are far, far better.

And speaking as a former PG child who endured 13 years of school, 12 of them 
without friendship, any improvement in the chances is worthwhile. 

Please - don't assume your experience is complete. It's not fair on these kids - 
because most people do not experience what they have to go through.

Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought
Shaun Hately |webpage: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html
(ISTJ)       |email: drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200
"You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in
common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter
the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen
to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who:
The Face of Evil | Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia