Question about New Testament (with OT)

[Melody]

I quoted from the NIV Bible:
> > Leviticus 18:22
> > "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is
> > detestable."
> > 
> > Frankly, I find that to be very cut and dry, myself.

 
> bboy_mn: 
>The passage you site about speaks of an action; 'Lie'. I think for
>simplicity sake we can agree that it does not refer to 'taking a
>nap'.  So it speaks of 'to lie', but it doesn't not mention 'to be'.

Honestly Bboy, unless you know ancient Hebrew, we are at a lose here
as to the meaning of the phrase.  I was taught it meant to have sex
with them.  Unfortunately, I took Ancient Greek in college not Hebrew,
so I cannot confirm or deny what exactly the passage means.  But if it
means just the act of lying with a man (i.e. the same sex) is
detestable, then I think many of us as children committed that "sin".  

The fact this verse comes between a long list of "sexual do not's" in
Leviticus makes me *assume* this is a part of that list.  After all,
the next verse tells us not to lie with animals, and frankly, the Lord
Jesus Christ was born in a manger in a stable.  Do you want to say he
was in sin at that time?


>But here is a another point to ponder. These books are written from a
>HetErosexual point of view. For a hetErosexual man to become so
>overwhelmed by lust and desire for bodily pleasure that he would go
>against his core nature, against his natural instincts, and engage in
>sex with another man, is certainly destestable and/or an abomonation
>(depending on what version you reference). 

Um Bboy.  I am lost here.  I define being homosexual as having sex
with the same sex.  If I love another woman, that does not make me
homosexual.  The act of physically loving on her does make me
homosexual.  So if someone who is heterosexual, i.e. is attracted to
opposite sex, has sex with one of their own sex, then they *are*
homosexual.  No wait.  They are *bisexual*.  So is that the sin? 
Bisexuality?

And if you want to take this verse further, what if you have sex with
the same sex standing?  Is that allowed then?  Loopholes are the
freedom from conscience you know.  ;)


I wrote:
> > And by that logic, I can murder my next door neighbor as long as I 
> > do it quickly and clean up after myself. 

> bboy_mn:
>I wasn't giving approval to any particular kind of action or sin, the
>thrust (no  pun) of my statement was contained in "...that the church
>conviniently leaves out of the discussion...".
> 
>So many of the most vocal people have no problem saying 'God hate
>fags' or 'Death to fags'. But they never get around to 'DEATH' for
>all their own sins. Where is DEATH to adulterers? Where is DEATH to
>fornicators? Where is DEATH to all the other things in the Bible says
>are punishable by death. How very convinient that the Old Testement
>DEATH no longer applies when it comes to their sins.

Bboy, I *completely* agree.  It is always easier to pull the splinter
from a neighbor's eye than remove the plank from your own.  

I am well aware of the hypocrisy that can exist in mankind.  *All* of
mankind whether they are a member of a church or not.  It is sad that
adulterers do not receive the same amount of outcry as the gays are
getting right now.  Jesus dealt with this too you know.  With the
Pharisees and Sadducees.  A lady in the middle of committing adultery
was dragged away during the act by the Pharisees and Sadducees to the
square where Jesus was preaching.  I find it sad there was not enough
of them there to take the man with them...seems they forgot about
him... but I digress.  

Jesus looked at them and her when they arrives.  He crouched down and
started to draw in the dirt.  He said, let he who has never sinned
cast the first stone.  They all left.  Jesus them told her to never to
sin again and let her go.  That too can be interpreted many ways, but
what is clear is that Jesus detested those that are short sighted and
attempt  make themselves look good by finding other *they* think are
worse than them.  

All I can say Bboy, is that in my faith, God can see all and know all.
 He does not relish in the acts of those that are blind to their own
sins and quick to pass judgment on those that do.  

That does not negate whether or not homosexuality is wrong, it only
means that those that are so self-righteous to think *they* can bring
judgment in this world are wrong.  I am sorry you are in the crossfire.  


Bboy:
> The general feeling amoung most Protestant churches it that the New
> Testement supersedes the Old Testement, and outlines a new way of
> living based on love and compassion.

This is a tricky part and what also divides Jews and Christians.  When
it is not clearly spelled out in the New Testament, often times, we
revert back to the Old Testament to see what God once said.  It can be
a bit spotty, but in the realm of homosexuality, it is not clear in
the New Testament what is God's stance on the issue, as far as I know.  

So Catlady, I do not know a verse in the New Testament that clearly
states that homosexuality is a sin.  I can point you to verse that
talk about the husband and wife relationship, but not to the
relationship between those of the same sex.  

When things come down to interpretation by the believer, it can be
rather sticky.  That is what caused all these different denominations
to come forth, and that is what causes all the debate.  It is sad some
take it so far as they do, but I always thought it meant they were
leaning their faith on what they believe rather than in the existence
of God and Jesus.  But I am digressing and going into my own views of
the radicalism of some people.  


Bboy:
>Let me make one thing clear, I never said that gay sex wasn't a sin.
>My position is that it is no more of a sin than hetErosexual sin
>under the indentical circumstances.

I agree.  A sin is a sin, and my faith states that all sin is bad and
draws you away from God.  


Bboy:
> I'm sinner and I'm sorry ...ummm... if I promise to be sorry again
> tomorrow, do you think I could do it again tonight?

That is that Catholic view on things Bboy.  Party all night, and
confess all morning.  Sorry, I joke because I am dating a Catholic. 
Now *that* is fun religious debates.  

My faith says you should turn from your sin once you admit you are
sinning and follow God.  You can, and will, sin still, but you are
striving not too.  One might question why you Bboy are choosing to sin
then, but I have the feeling that you think you are doing no one harm
in your actions so why should you change?  My thoughts go to The
Simpson's and the Flanders' family children.  "Because you make baby
Jesus cry."  ;)

Sorry, that family cracks me up.  Talk about religious paranoia.  


Melody