Question about New Testament (with OT)

[Beth]

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "joywitch_m_curmudgeon"
<joym999 at a...> wrote:
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Cindy C." <cindysphynx at c...> 
> wrote:
> 
> > Personally, I am a Southern Baptist who believes sex outside of 
> > marriage is a sin for everyone and that gay sex is a sin as well.  
> I 
> > also happen to believe that my personal religious beliefs should 
> not 
> > form the basis for government policy.  So I am in favor of civil 
> > unions for gays etc. to grant to them the legal rights and 
> > obligations that come with marriage.  Call it civil union, 
> marriage, 
> > whatever.  Those of us who are religious can still be married in 
> our 
> > churches, and our unions will conform with our own personal beliefs.
> > 
> > I just fail to see how allowing two gay men to form a civil union 
> > undermines the strength or importance of my marriage.
> 
joywitch: 
> I don't understand.  It seems like you are saying that sex outside 
> marriage, and gay sex, are sins, for everyone, but yet they are your 
> personal beliefs and shouldn't affect other people, or at least 
> shouldn't affect how other people are governed.  While I agree with 
> the second part -- I don't really understand why, in a country 
> with "separation of church and state" written into the constitution, 
> people feel that their personal religious beliefs should have any 
> influence on the law, I am confused about your personal beliefs and 
> attitudes towards the acts which you consider to be sinful.
>

Me, Beth:
I just want to interject that "separation of church and state" is not
written anywhere into the constitution. It was a phrase taken from a
letter written by Thomas Jefferson and has been used out of context
for decades. Here are two websites I found:

http://www.wallbuilders.com/resources/search/detail.php?ResourceID=9
     (this one's really long...)
http://www.christianlaw.org/separation_church_state_pf.html
	Quote: "The intent of the First Amendment and the words and actions
of our Founding Fathers, including Thomas Jefferson, clearly
demonstrate how the words "the separation of church and state" were
originally understood. These words were never intended to remove God
from government; rather they were intended to keep government from
controlling and manipulating religious practices. Unfortunately today,
two hundred years after Jefferson wrote the phrase, these words have
turned on those they were intended to protect."

Ironically, using this phrase in this way is much like people who take
a Bible verse out of context to defend their point-of-view.

joywitch:
> So, your friends who engage in gay sex (within monogamous 
> relationships or not), and your friends who engage in straight sex 
> who are not married, are people who you consider to be sinners, I 
> assume.  How does that affect your relationship with them?  If they 
> are sinners, do you refuse to, I don't know, bring your children to 
> their houses?  Or does it not have any practical impact?  And if it 
> doesn't have any practical impact, how is it meaningful?
> 
> It seems like you are saying that these acts would be a sin for you, 
> but that other people should be allowed to do what they want, but at 
> the same time you say these things are a sin for everyone, so I'm 
> confused.
> 
> I guess I feel a little offended.  As a bisexual woman who has had 
> sex with both men and women and has never been married, I am a little 
> disturbed to find out that you consider me to be a sinner.  I know 
> you don't have any problem being friends with me, because we've 
> shared several yummy plates of sushi together, but it does it mean 
> that you disapprove of me, or value me less, or feel sorry for me?  
> Or are you saying that we are both sinners, since the amount of sushi 
> we ate probably rated the sin of gluttony, so sinning is no big deal?
 
Me, Beth
I do not presume to speak for Cindy, but jibes at "Dubya" aside, I
think most Christians would tell you that all are sinners (Rom. 3:23).
As far as who an individual sinning Christian decides to associate
with, that would be, well, individual. As evidenced by the /many,
many/ denominations in the US, Christians can find plenty to disagree
on, even within the denomination they've chosen--witness the
Episcopalian debate. I have a friend who disagrees with the Roman
Catholic church's stance on lots of issues, yet remained solidly
Catholic, until shaken by the pedophilic priests scandals.

Let me just add fuel to the fire with another issue, hopefully to add
light, not heat ;o): I believed in high school that it was a woman's
right to choose whether or not she wished to seek an abortion. I held
this belief through two children, telling my shocked parents when I
was pregnant for the first time at 19 that while abortion wasn't an
option I planned to choose for myself, that having lost my college
scholarship and having clue zero what I was going to be able to do
with my life I thought I understood why other girls/women might choose
it. This served me just fine until I was five months pregnant with my
third, feeling her move around on a regular basis, and I learned that
a friend had recently aborted her 20 week pregnancy because of the
unproven possibility that she might have a child who was born
deformed. I have since come to believe that abortion is the wrong
choice, yet it still isn't my place to decide for someone else. 

Have I discussed this with my friend? No. Do I feel it's my place to?
No, this is between her and God, and if she doesn't feel convicted of
it, then my bringing it up is more likely to cause division than to
demonstrate to her love and support. And besides, I heard a speaker
say, "God doesn't need /me/ to save anyone." I think she would be
better served if I concentrated on getting the plank(s) out of my own
eyes. I don't feel the need to keep my children away from her or
picket her house or throw leaflets in her car (as someone did to mine
when I was at a bar for a wedding reception <lol!>). If it must have a
practical impact, then it is that I pray that she feels grace and
peace about her decision.

So what if a friend thinks you are wrong in something? Aren't there
people in your life that you feel are wrong or terribly misguided in
some issue and yet you are willing to overlook this because you
sincerely like them as people? Do you have to approve of everything
someone does to be their friend? I cannot say that I have ever enjoyed
sushi with you, and I'm really not even a regular lurker, so I can't
say that I know you, but from what I do know about you from your
posts, I can't believe that to be true.

I know I left things unaddressed, but I'm simply going to have to sign
off as...

Beth, who cannot deal with eternity at this moment...