From hebrideanblack at earthlink.net  Mon Dec  1 00:03:46 2003
From: hebrideanblack at earthlink.net (Wendy St. John)
Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 00:03:46 -0000
Subject: Haggis tragedy
In-Reply-To: <bqblkj+oenj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <bqe0h2+jrmd@eGroups.com>

Tracy

> I'm sure somebody on this list has eaten haggis.  I have not - can 
> you describe the taste?  Is it comparable to the 
flavor/consistency > of any more "common" foods?  Don't tell me "it 
tastes like chicken", > lol!  If given the opportunity I'd at least 
try it once.


Well, you've already had one answer, but I thought I'd speak up as 
well. I love Haggis. I haven't had one since we moved back to the 
U.S. from Scotland, but when we lived in Scotland, we did have one 
from time to time - Burns Night, and New Years, usually, and then 
maybe the odd one just for the heck of it.

It is hard to describe the taste (definitely not like chicken <G>). 
Gull Plum already gave a good description of the contents, so I 
won't repeat that. I will just second his comment that mostly what 
you taste is the seasoning, and some *are* better than others. It is 
sort of spicy (peppery, I mean), and almost has a smoky sort of 
flavour. 

This is how we ate them: we'd prepare it the first night (boiled or 
warm in the oven, depending on whether or not it was pre-cooked), 
and then serve it with whiskey (not to drink - you actually pour the 
whiskey over the haggis). It's lovely like this, and I am NOT a 
whiskey drinker. This is one of the few ways you'll actually get 
whiskey into me. Then, the next morning, we'd take the left over 
haggis, slice it into "patties," roll it in oats, and fry it up. 
YUMMY! 

I really would recommend that anyone who is interested give it a try 
if you get a chance. Just don't think about what it's made of. And, 
after all, it's really no worse than a hotdog, at least as far as 
I'm concerned. And a good haggis is MUCH yummier than a hotdog. 
(Again, IMO). 

:-)
Wendy
Missing Scotland. Oh - and David? You forgot to mention a few 
American passtimes - we like to hunt both snipe and jackalope here. 
Very amusing. ::grin::




From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com  Mon Dec  1 02:27:20 2003
From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (IggyMcSnurd)
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 20:27:20 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: the Eight Days of Chanukah
In-Reply-To: <bqduna+57vl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000001c3b7b2$a774b090$1feb79a5@Einstein>

> Susan:
>
>Forgive my ignorance but what are Golden Yads?? I am familiar with 
>the rest.
>
 
Iggy here:

A Yad (or is it spelled Yod? Yahd? Yohd?... I can't remember... Can
someone Jewish out there please correct the spelling?  *grin*) is a
small... wand, for lack of a better term, with a small hand on the end
with a pointing finger.  It's often gold or silver (so I've been told)
and is used as a pointer for when reading the Jewish holy texts.

For one thing, it's used because one of the older beliefs of the Jewish
faith includes that if a single character in a holy book is smudged (and
it's easily done so by the sweat and dirt on a person's finger), it
renders the entire book/scroll itself useless.

If I have been informed wrong, anyone who knows can please feel to
correct what I've said.


Iggy McSnurd







From Erthena at aol.com  Mon Dec  1 07:00:28 2003
From: Erthena at aol.com (werebearloony)
Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 07:00:28 -0000
Subject: Sibling rivalry
In-Reply-To: <bq915j+egc3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <bqeouc+i68s@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "dradamsapple" 
<dradamsapple at y...> wrote:
> HELP!!!!
> 
> Forgive the OT-ness of this post, but I'm at my wits end.
> The fighting between my three offspring has reached an all time 
> high.
<snip>
> Anna . . . (whose beginning to feel she needs a nice white jacket 
like 
> Lockhart's in the last scene of Cos, AFTER the credits 
rolled . . .)

~loony~

Well I'm the oldest of three, for reference there's me, loony, the 
middle sister, diva (her name for herself) and supe (pronounced soup-
y).  Although right now I'm not in a good place to be much help (I'm 
only sixteen) I can give my perspective.

I agree with Jen to give age appropriate privileges and 
responsibilities.  I remember the *months* I spent getting my Mom 
(who was a media rater, a.k.a. the person who puts the ratings on 
the movies) to let me see a PG-13 movie (I was twelve and a half 
before she let me) and then them turning around and supe (then) 
eight years old watch the *same* movie.  It stung.   I've also heard 
diva complaining that her chore is way harder than mine.  She does 
some of the pet stuff when the mood strikes her and I do all the 
food stuff (cooking and ordering groceries from the online 
service).  I don't see her point (this happens often) but I also was 
thirteen what feels like a *long* time ago.

About the fighting.  Let them have at it; just make sure it doesn't 
get too hurtful, physically or emotionally.  Both leave scars.  Also 
you may find that only one of your kids fights or one always starts 
the fights, or makes them more intense.  Then you should find a way 
to stop this one from fighting.  That could lead to a *big* dropoff 
in fighting.  For instance I never really fight with Supe, we get 
along great.  But I fight with diva and diva fights with Supe.  When 
Diva's gone the only 'fighting' is stuff like "Supe why did you hug 
me when you were covered in glitter glue!" and "loony won't drive me 
too my friend's house!"  That's just living in the same house, its 
little stuff that doesn't really hurt anyone.  There will be 
fighting unless you have kids who are either perfectly behaved or 
identical in personality.  Our fighting usually comes from our 
differences, which I think are good.

Hope that Helps

~~loony
"Prolongs Active Sirius." (What is this product and where do I get 
it?)





From Erthena at aol.com  Mon Dec  1 07:18:15 2003
From: Erthena at aol.com (werebearloony)
Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 07:18:15 -0000
Subject: Sibling Taunts
Message-ID: <bqepvn+la1r@eGroups.com>

With the recent thread about Sibling rivalry I thought we could have 
some fun and post some of the stuff our siblings have said.  Nothing 
painful but stuff you look back on and laugh at.  I'll start. (loony 
= me, diva = my thirteen year old sister, supe = my eleven year old 
sister)

Supe and Diva to the tune of Hey Juliet by O-town. (Post OOP):  Hey 
Sirius, Hey Sirius. I think you're fine, you really blow my mind.  
Maybe, some day you and me can run away.  I just want you to know; I 
wanna be your James Potter, hey Sirius, Hey Sirius. 

loony:  You mock my pain, never do it again.  I died that day.  
(Only occasionally do I say "and you can die too for all I care")

Diva:  Sirius is dead, Sirius is dead...

loony: Auta miqula orqu, saurar, amin delotha ille!  Azg nazg 
durbatuluk... (Elvish/black speech "Go kiss an orc foul one, I hate 
you!  One ring to rule them all..., it sounds so much more menacing 
in black speech.)

Diva: Shhh... Slippers can fly! They're trying to take over the 
world that one just did! (A year later I still don't get it.)

Supe: (rapping) the moose likes the cheese, the cheese likes the 
moose.  (Again I don't get it)

That's all I can remember for now (it's very late).  I have more 
written down somewhere.  I'll post it when I find it.

~~loony





From abigailnus at yahoo.com  Mon Dec  1 07:37:53 2003
From: abigailnus at yahoo.com (abigailnus)
Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 07:37:53 -0000
Subject: the Eight Days of Chanukah
In-Reply-To: <000001c3b7b2$a774b090$1feb79a5@Einstein>
Message-ID: <bqer4h+96l9@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "IggyMcSnurd" <coyoteschild at p...> 
wrote:
> > Susan:
> >
> >Forgive my ignorance but what are Golden Yads?? I am familiar with 
> >the rest.
> >
>  
> Iggy here:
> 
> A Yad (or is it spelled Yod? Yahd? Yohd?... I can't remember... Can
> someone Jewish out there please correct the spelling?  *grin*) 

Well, since the spelling is in another alphabet, there's really no correct =

form.  Phonetically, Yad is correct.  It's the hebrew word for 'hand', for =

obvious reasons.

is a
> small... wand, for lack of a better term, with a small hand on the end
> with a pointing finger.  It's often gold or silver (so I've been told)

I've seen lots and lots of silver (or silvery-looking, possibly silver plat=
e) 
Yads, but I've never seen a gold one.  The precious metal isn't required.  =

It's just that Jews don't tend to have a lot of ornamentation in their holy=
 
places, so all those urges tend to get poured out on the Torah scrolls.   
They are usually wrapped in covers made of velvet and emroidered, and 
have 'jewelry' placed on them - ornate silver finials for the scroll 
handles, and large decorated plates hung around them like necklaces.  
Same thing goes for the Yad, which comes in close contact with the 
Torah.  

> For one thing, it's used because one of the older beliefs of the Jewish
> faith includes that if a single character in a holy book is smudged (and
> it's easily done so by the sweat and dirt on a person's finger), it
> renders the entire book/scroll itself useless.

Yes and no.  The use of the Yad is meant, from a more practical 
standpoint, to prevent smudging and dirtying the scroll, but it is more 
generally a form of respect.  Nowhere does Judaism come closer to 
idolatry then in its treatment of the Torah scrolls - people stand up when =

they are revealed during prayers, it is considered a grave honor to be 
asked to carry one, and when the Torah is carried around the room, people 
will kiss their fingertips and then touch it.  The Yad is an extension of t=
hat 
perception - it is disrespectful to directly touch something so holy.

It is true, however, that if during the writing of the scroll, the writer m=
akes 
even a single error, the Torah is ruined.  It can't be used, and is usually=
 
buried.  This is (or was) as much a matter of self-preservation as of 
religious fervor.  For the longest time the Torah was the only thing that 
kept the far-flung Jewish people connected.  To allow mistakes to creep 
into the text would be to allow the beginnings of schisms and 
unresolveable differences of opinions.  Scholars and rabbis of the last 
2000 years therefore demanded absolute 'purity' out of the text (which is 
not to say that mistakes haven't crept in, because we are talking about 
humans here, but they are relatively minimal).

Abigail




From boggles at earthlink.net  Mon Dec  1 08:11:07 2003
From: boggles at earthlink.net (Jennifer Boggess Ramon)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 02:11:07 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] the Eight Days of Chanukah
In-Reply-To: <000701c3b756$cfeb9860$b686aec7@Einstein>
References: <000701c3b756$cfeb9860$b686aec7@Einstein>
Message-ID: <p05200f00bbf0a5813f28@[192.168.1.100]>

At 9:29 AM -0600 11/30/03, IggyMcSnurd wrote:
>
>And please forgive any spelling mistakes... I'm just a gentile who does
>his best...

*chuckle* Being myself a Pagan with a Jewish spouse, forgive me for 
pointing out that (if I have your religion right) you are, like me, 
yevonim as well as goyim.  (I was very, very careful not to touch the 
Torah scrolls when they showed them at my cousin-in-law's Bar 
Mitzvah.)

-- 

  - Boggles, aka J. C. B. Ramon			boggles(at)earthlink.net
"It is not knowledge, but the act of learning, not possession but the 
act of getting there, which grants the greatest enjoyment. "
	- Gauss, in a Letter to Bolyai, 1808.



From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Mon Dec  1 09:33:59 2003
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley)
Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 09:33:59 -0000
Subject: Sibling rivalry
In-Reply-To: <bqdq03+kf53@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <bqf1u7+na5l@eGroups.com>

> Greta (who has been guilty of turning the car radio up VERY loud to 
> drown out the sound of a pointless argument in the back seat)

You can also try opening all the windows, or, if that doesn't work, 
slam on the brakes for a second, speed up, repeat every couple of 
seconds.  These ploys work best at high speed.

David, who is usually the rapidly-ageing adult passenger in these 
situations




From silverdragon at ezweb.com.au  Mon Dec  1 02:20:36 2003
From: silverdragon at ezweb.com.au (silverdragon at ezweb.com.au)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 12:20:36 +1000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Sibling rivalry
References: <bqbdtp+3coq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000201c3b7f1$dac7bbb0$63984cca@Monteith>

>
> Amber (who decided that if she ever has children, they will be at
> least 10 years apart)

It doesn't help. There's a gap between my two and they *still* fight tooth
and nail... You'd think they wouldn't be able to find anything in common to
fight about, but they manage to.

Nox




From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Mon Dec  1 10:04:36 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 10:04:36 -0000
Subject: Haggis tragedy
In-Reply-To: <bqbgml+oupb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <bqf3nk+7g5m@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "davewitley"
<dfrankiswork at n...> wrote:
> See http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/3240190.stm
> 
> Rita Skeeter adds, for the benefit of Harry Potter fans intending to 
> visit Scotland:
> 
> The last hopes of American tourists to go Haggis-hunting were today 
> dashed as the Rhann of Kutch closed his Argyllshire estate to Haggis 
> hunting, bringing to an end a centuries-old tradition. ...edited...
> 
> Erwin G. Hackenheimer III, speaking for the National Tourist 
> Federation, said: "This is a real blow for American tourists looking 
> for traditional Old-World food customs to participate in.  The 
> annual Morroccan gutting of the Cous-Cous Fish for its roe has 
> always been unappetizing, the Sienese Spaghetti Pick is frankly 
> dangerous, and El Nino has made the mass drifting of the egg sacs of 
> the Tea Bag Shark onto the Cornish coast ever more unreliable.  
> ...edited...
>
> Dave


bboy_mn:

Well, those poor tourist are more than welcome to come to Minnesota,
and we will be happy to take them out Snipe hunting; a time honored
tradition in the Mid-West. 

Failing that, they are more than welcome to come and enjoy the eelpout
fishing tournement, or stop by any Lutheran church for a delicious
butter dipped lutefisk dinner.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

For those who don't know, Snipe, while it does techincally refer to a
real bird, Snipe hunting is a northwoods joke that is played on na?ve
little boys and city slickers.

Eelpout is about the ugliest creature that ever swam in water and as
far as any living human knows, are vitually inedible.

Lutefisk, on the other hand, has been extensively documented in this
forum, and can easily be searched for in the archives. 

A basic summary of lutefisk is, a vaguely white fish that has been
pickeled in poisonous Lye, and is deadly if not prepared correctly. It
also has a hideous unappetizing gelatinous appearance and generally
stinks.

Just a thought.

bboy_mn



 






From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com  Mon Dec  1 14:12:39 2003
From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (IggyMcSnurd)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 08:12:39 -0600
Subject: Faith Education (was -RE: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: the Eight Days of Chanukah)
In-Reply-To: <bqer4h+96l9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000101c3b815$31347010$7b95aec7@Einstein>


Iggy here:

Abigail, I would like to publicly thank you for setting the record
straight on the nature of the Yad and the proper treatment of the Jewish
holy books.

It has been most enlightening.  (For me, my only real education I've
gotten about these things has been when I still lived in California:
from that Jewish GF I had and the Jewish friends we associated with, a
bank customer who owned a Kosher store and deli back when I was a bank
teller and would ask him questions occasionally, and... errr... one of
my favorite movies, "The Frisco Kid...")

Believe it or not, I'd actually be likely to have asked about more
information directly from a Rabbi... if I could actually find a
Synagogue in the phone book here in Northern Alabama.  (I've gotten into
a few discussions about Christianity down here... It's easy to find
Christians and their ministers here... It's just a little hard to find
ones open minded enough to have an in-depth conversation about relative
theological theories with a Neo-Pagan and not be likely to get
offended.)

*chuckle* I even tried starting a mailing list on Yahoo to try and get
people to discuss comparative faith, and the only people who signed up
did so to advertise porn...

Iggy McSnurd







From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com  Mon Dec  1 14:23:38 2003
From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (IggyMcSnurd)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 08:23:38 -0600
Subject: Faith Education (was -RE: [HPFGU-OTChatter] the Eight Days of Chanukah)
In-Reply-To: <p05200f00bbf0a5813f28@[192.168.1.100]>
Message-ID: <000201c3b816$ba412a50$7b95aec7@Einstein>

>  - Boggles
>*chuckle* Being myself a Pagan with a Jewish spouse, forgive me for 
>pointing out that (if I have your religion right) you are, like me, 
>yevonim as well as goyim.? (I was very, very careful not to touch the 
>Torah scrolls when they showed them at my cousin-in-law's Bar 
>Mitzvah.)
>

Iggy here:

Well, I don't really know what "yevonim" means... although I am familiar
with "goyim."

You got lucky... at least the Jews tend to be a lot more accepting of
other people's beliefs.  *grin* I'm a Neo-Pagan married to a Southern
Baptist.  (My wife and I don't discuss faith all that much... it ends up
starting too many arguments.)  

And would you believe that I always figured that, if I ever got married,
I would probably marry someone Jewish?  Mostly it's because I tended to
get along better with my Jewish friends and GF than I did with every
other relationship except my wife... That and because I just kinda like
the spirit with which the Jews live their lives and practice their faith
a lot of the time.  Of course, being half Italian, I can identify with
some of it.  In  the Mediterranean cultures for the most part...
(including the Jews), as an example, you work hard, you live your life
in your faith, and you celebrate life to it's fullest when it's time to
play.

(At least, that's what I've always seen... *grin*


Iggy McSnurd







From strophe at tds.net  Mon Dec  1 14:32:50 2003
From: strophe at tds.net (malior)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 08:32:50 -0600
Subject: Sirius and mugshots
In-Reply-To: <1070284336.909.33290.m12@yahoogroups.com>
References: <1070284336.909.33290.m12@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <a05111b01bbf10110290f@[10.0.1.30]>

Took my 7-year-old and his friends to a movie this weekend, and the 
wanted poster of Sirius was in the lobby. All the kids admired it.

Next day, at the breakfast table, we were all reading the paper, 
which featured a little article on mug shots. They had recent ones, 
including Glenn Campbell, who looked really terrible. I just felt 
sorry for the poor guy. Mentioned this to my husband, and my son 
said, "Let me see, let me see!" So I passed the paper over to him. He 
studied the photo and said, "He'd make a good Sirius."

malior
-- 
strophe at tds.net




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Mon Dec  1 18:51:32 2003
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 18:51:32 -0000
Subject: Torah Re: the Eight Days of Chanukah
In-Reply-To: <bqer4h+96l9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <bqg2jk+qaug@eGroups.com>

Iggy:
> > For one thing, it's used because one of the older beliefs of 
the Jewish faith includes that if a single character in a holy book 
is smudged (and it's easily done so by the sweat and dirt on a 
person's finger), it renders the entire book/scroll itself 
useless.<<

Abigail: 
> Yes and no.  The use of the Yad is meant, from a more 
practical  standpoint, to prevent smudging and dirtying the scroll, 
but it is more  generally a form of respect.  <snip> - it is 
disrespectful to directly touch something so holy.
> 
> It is true, however, that if during the writing of the scroll, the 
writer makes  even a single error, the Torah is ruined.  It can't be 
used, and is usually buried.  This is (or was) as much a matter 
of self-preservation as of  religious fervor. <

It's also true that if even one character of a finished Torah scroll 
becomes illegible, the scroll is ruined for ritual purposes. 

Pippin
BTW Iggy, anybody who'd like to email a  Rabbi  with questions  
can follow this link:

http://uahc.org/ask/






From erinellii at yahoo.com  Mon Dec  1 19:09:13 2003
From: erinellii at yahoo.com (erinellii)
Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 19:09:13 -0000
Subject: Faith Education (was -RE: [HPFGU-OTChatter] the Eight Days of Chanukah)
In-Reply-To: <000201c3b816$ba412a50$7b95aec7@Einstein>
Message-ID: <bqg3kp+4sqo@eGroups.com>


> Iggy:

>   *grin* I'm a Neo-Pagan married to a Southern
> Baptist.  (My wife and I don't discuss faith all that much... it 
ends up
> starting too many arguments.)  


Erin:

Yeah, there are lots of those Southern Baptists in Alabama, aren't 
there, Iggy?  Practically all of my friends are (I'm Methodist) and 
one of the worst moments I've had with that recently was going to the 
mall last month with a big group of friends and passing a booth with 
a petition to support Roy Moore and his ten commandments monument.  
All my friends ran over there to sign it, and I just sort of stood 
there akwardly.  
  It was kind of bad.  All of them stayed there for a few minutes 
talking about how awful it was, the government trying to take 
religion out of our lives, and they kept looking back at me, the 
people running the booth would glance over at me... I finally drifted 
a bit closer, and one of my friends asked if I wanted to sign and I 
had to say "No, thanks", and then of course they ALL looked at me 
like "she's one of those evil people who's not a real christian", but 
no one said anything.  For which I was grateful, 'cause I don't think 
some of our friendships could have stood the ensuing argument.

Erin
"All BB GUN, All The Time"




From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com  Mon Dec  1 19:42:13 2003
From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (IggyMcSnurd)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 13:42:13 -0600
Subject: Faith Education (was -RE: [HPFGU-OTChatter] the Eight Days of Chanukah)
In-Reply-To: <bqg3kp+4sqo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000801c3b843$3b540eb0$f535d843@Einstein>

>Erin:
>
>Yeah, there are lots of those Southern Baptists in Alabama, aren't 
>there, Iggy?? Practically all of my friends are (I'm Methodist) and 
>one of the worst moments I've had with that recently was going to the 
>mall last month with a big group of friends and passing a booth with 
>a petition to support Roy Moore and his ten commandments monument.? 
>All my friends ran over there to sign it, and I just sort of stood 
>there akwardly.? 

*the rest snipped*

Iggy here:

*laugh* I would have happily debated the subject with them.  (There are
some things I won't back down from... and defending what I believe is
one of them.)

The thing that annoys me is that the people who were the first to
protest the removal of the Ten Commandments monument, citing freedom of
expression of one's religion usually, would also be the first to sign a
petition requesting its removal if it was a monument to the Torah, the
Koran, or the Threefold Law.  (Well, ok... the Ten Commandments
represents Jewish laws as well, but you get the idea...  Imagine it
having a Menorah on it rather than a Cross.)

There is, supposedly written into law, a separation of Church and State.


This means that there is not supposed to be a State religion. (not that
you'd know it by looking at our money... and I think we'll have both a
black and a woman president before a non-Christian one ever gets
elected.)

This means that the government supposedly can't tax churches of any
sort.  (I guess this explains why there are so many televangelists...)

This means that the Church is not to exert its influence political
issues.  (Anyone here ever hear of Jerry Falwell and the Moral
Majority??  Not to mention, and Erin can probably attest to this, that
churches will hire billboards that use a religious approach and try to
imply that it's a sin to vote for something they disagree with.)

This means that people aren't supposed to be nervous or scared to speak
their minds about what they believe... anywhere they want to speak their
views... respectfully, at least.  (I've had probably 5 conversations
about faith and religion with someone down here in the last 3.5 years
I've lived here.  Mostly because I worry that, with the grapevine around
here, I'd end up being cast out by the entire town simply because I
stated a view or two that doesn't mesh with the Bible...)


Where was I??  Oh, yeah... sorry for the tangent there...

Anyhow...

I personally agree with the monument being removed because, as a
government facility, anything they support of a specific religion
breaches that "separation of Church and State."  The monument implied
that the government (of Alabama, at the least) supported a specific
religion...


'Nuff said... before I go off on a tangent again.  *grin*

Iggy McSnurd







From lhuntley at fandm.edu  Mon Dec  1 22:24:28 2003
From: lhuntley at fandm.edu (Laura Ingalls Huntley)
Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 17:24:28 -0500
Subject: Faith Education (was -RE: [HPFGU-OTChatter] the Eight Days of
 Chanukah)
In-Reply-To: <000801c3b843$3b540eb0$f535d843@Einstein>
Message-ID: <20986B5B-244D-11D8-889F-000A95E29F3E@fandm.edu>

Iggy:
> There is, supposedly written into law, a separation of Church and 
> State.

Laura:
I've always been sort of interested about this, actually.  Where does 
this "separation of Church and State" that is so often cited, *come* 
from, exactly?

When I was little, I always assumed it was the Bill of Rights, which 
*actually* states: "Congress shall make no law respecting an 
establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof 
[...]."

This is obviously not quite in line with the modern day interpretation 
of "separation of Church and State."  So, what *is* the origin of this 
tag line?  An interpretation of the first Amendment by the Supreme 
Court?  Another law entirely?

Just curious.

Laura (who would like to note that she is not questioning the 
appropriateness of "separation of Church and State," because she 
recognizes that while it is not to the letter of the Bill of Rights, it 
is to the *spirit.*)

P.S. Don't be so hard on the Southern Baptists.  One, their religion 
teaches them that any friends/family/acquaintances they fail to convert 
will burn in hell for all eternity -- sort of makes "tolerance" and 
"acceptance" of other religions seem like willful manslaughter to a lot 
of them.  Two, just because they have a few wackos among their members 
who get all the attention (because wackos are naturally more 
interesting than normal people), doesn't mean the majority of them 
aren't reasonable, sensible people like you and me.  Three, yes, some 
of them are intolerant, which is a Bad, but being intolerant back is 
like trying to make two wrongs equal a right.  Love, people.  Love. ^_~

P.P.S.  If the above doesn't convince you to soften your arguments a 
bit, you might want to consider that there may well be a number of 
Southern Baptists on this list who might not appreciate being cast in a 
less than favorable light -- especially in contrast with the obvious 
care, thought, and sensitivity you put into your recent posts about 
Judaism.

P.P.P.S. Uh...so, okay.  You caught me.  I'm from Maine -- I've never 
ever *met* a Southern Baptist, so I'm sure someone out there is going 
to try to tell me that I don't know what I'm talking about or what 
they're like.  And...um...I guess I don't.  *shrugs* But let's not try 
to fight intolerance with intolerance, okay?




From cwood at tattersallpub.com  Tue Dec  2 00:48:57 2003
From: cwood at tattersallpub.com (mstattersall)
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 00:48:57 -0000
Subject: Faith Education (was -RE: [HPFGU-OTChatter] the Eight Days of Chanukah)
In-Reply-To: <20986B5B-244D-11D8-889F-000A95E29F3E@fandm.edu>
Message-ID: <bqgnhp+10cqh@eGroups.com>

> Iggy:
> > There is, supposedly written into law, a separation of Church and 
> > State.
> 
> Laura:
> I've always been sort of interested about this, actually.  Where 
does 
> this "separation of Church and State" that is so often cited, 
*come* 
> from, exactly?
> 
Now me, Ms. Tattersall: 
It's not in the Constitution--rather, it's a long-standing 
interpretation--the spirit of the law rather than the letter of it. 
Like Iggy said in the body of his earlier post, the only thing stated 
in the Constitution is that Congress shall make no law establishing a 
state religion. However, a lot of power is invested in the individual 
states, so if the state of Alabama held a referendum specifically for 
the reinstatement of the 10 Commandments monument in its state 
capitol, and the majority of Alabama voters approved it, then back in 
the capitol it should go. I don't think that would ever happen, but 
it is an option.

Ms. Tattersall, hardly a Constitutional scholar, but an interested 
bystander just the same




From fc26det at aol.com  Tue Dec  2 02:31:59 2003
From: fc26det at aol.com (Potterfanme)
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 02:31:59 -0000
Subject: Faith Education (was -RE: [HPFGU-OTChatter] the Eight Days of Chanukah)
In-Reply-To: <20986B5B-244D-11D8-889F-000A95E29F3E@fandm.edu>
Message-ID: <bqgtiv+ofsb@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Laura Ingalls Huntley 
<lhuntley at f...> wrote:
> P.P.P.S. Uh...so, okay.  You caught me.  I'm from Maine -- I've 
never 
> ever *met* a Southern Baptist, so I'm sure someone out there is 
going 
> to try to tell me that I don't know what I'm talking about or what 
> they're like.  And...um...I guess I don't.  *shrugs* But let's not 
try 
> to fight intolerance with intolerance, okay?


I couldn't help but giggle....alot!  I am a Heinz 57 when it comes to 
religion.  My mothers family is Catholic. My fathers family is 
Methodist.  Because of the conflict, us kids were not strictly taught 
about religion.  If we decided we wanted to go to church, Dad would 
take us drop us off and pick us back up after the service....at the 
Methodist church.  When I got older, I would go to whichever church 
my friends would go to.  Hence, I went to Catholic, Lutheran, 
Presbyterian, Baptist and other Methodist churches.  What I noticed 
was that although the structure of the services was quite different, 
the sermons all were amazingly similar.

Then I moved from Chicago to Ft. Lauderdale.  In Chicago, there was a 
Catholic church on every corner, a Synagogue scattered few and far 
between and the other religions in between.  In Ft. Lauderdale there 
was a Synagogue on every corner and Catholic Churches were few and 
far between as well as the other faiths.  My children also did not 
have school for the Jewish holy days.  Being a room mother in Florida 
took on a whole new meaning since I had to quickly learn about the 
Jewish faith.

Then we moved to North Carolina.  The bible belt.  Here there is a 
Baptist Church on every corner.  One Catholic church shared by 3 
counties and the other faiths scattered about.

I choose the church I attend by the minister or pastor who can hold 
the congregations attention.  Who's words touch me.  Granted they are 
only human and once in a while it is just droning sound but there is 
nothing like a good minister/pastor that can relay a message.

The religion that I admire the most is the Catholic religion for 
their formality.  I (for reasons unknown to me) quake if a priest or 
nun comes near me.  Please don't let them speak to me as I turn into 
a babbling idiot.  For these reasons and since there just aren't any, 
I don't go to Catholic church.

We also have several Mormons here.  I have had the pleasure of 
becoming friends with several people who go to these churches and am 
learning a little about their religion. 

Basically, the point of all this rabble is that I have found that 
there are some who feel their religion is the *only* true religion.  
Then there are most who simply beleive in their savior, no matter 
what his name, and strive to live their lives accordingly.  The only 
thing that I have a hard time tollerating is someone who tries to 
force their beliefs on me. 

Also, from what I have seen here in the South, a true Southern 
Baptist church is nothing like the northern version of a Southern 
Baptist church.

Susan--who really does wish she could get through a Christmas Eve 
midnight service without drowning everyone around her.





From cwood at tattersallpub.com  Tue Dec  2 03:00:54 2003
From: cwood at tattersallpub.com (mstattersall)
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 03:00:54 -0000
Subject: Christmas at Hogwarts (Was Re: Faith Education)
Message-ID: <bqgv96+g4v1@eGroups.com>

While we've been hashing over the constitutionality of religion, I 
happened to notice the beautiful still from HP-(Movie) recently added 
at the top of this group's homepage. Looks like they've decorated for 
a traditional Christmas celebration at Hogwarts. Is that because the 
majority of students at Hogwarts are of the Christian persuasion or 
of the pagan persuasion? An interesting puzzle, since the Christmas 
tree is part of both traditions in the modern world. Obviously (house 
rivalries aside), they all seem to get along.

What, then, of the students who might not be of either persuasion? 
I'm not an HP scholar--don't really feel comfortable participating on 
the main list--but JKR has obviously created a WW student population 
that represents the diverse population of the RW. The two students 
who come to mind are Parvati and Padma Patil, whom I would guess to 
be Indian or Pakistani. How do they feel about the Christmas tree if 
they come from, say, a Hindu culture? 

Come to think of it, most religions (except paganism, perhaps) are 
hostile to the whole concept of "magic." Too threatening to their 
base, I suppose.

Just a few random thoughts, which I'm sure have been cussed and 
discussed before in this venue.
Ms. Tattersall,
in a festive yet pensive (not pensieve) mood




From catlady at wicca.net  Tue Dec  2 05:32:32 2003
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 05:32:32 -0000
Subject: Another book
Message-ID: <bqh85g+pkhe@eGroups.com>

that I bought at Nimbus 2003:

Harry Potter's World: Multidisciplinary Critical Perspectives
editor: Elizabeth Heilman

Some of the essays are mildly interesting ("Reading Harry Potter
Through Navajo Eyes" and the three essays in the Literary section) but
far more are annoying, especially the two essays by the editor herself
are *wildly* annoying. For example, she says that the Hogwarts House
Elves being depicted as not demanding their freedom brainwashes
readers into believing that slavery is okay.

However, there is one interesting (altho' disproved by OoP if not
earlier) idea in one of the essays in the Cultural Studies section.
"Harry Potter's World: Magic, Technoculture, and Becoming Human" by
Peter Appelbaum. I can't tell you what that essay is about, because I
don't know (it turns out that Cultural Studies is a foreign language
to me, even when they don't say "diegetic" or "the noir imaginary"),
but here is the second half of one paragraph, which I understand as
recommending a way to get students interested in school learning: let
them think they're saving the world.

"[The professors] often turn out to be fully aware of what is
happening, or at least adequately conscious of what Harry and his
friends are up to so that they can offer assistance at just the right
moments. And Harry and his friends always seem to have just mastered
enough new spells and tricks to accomplish what is necessary. In the
end, as with the gundam hero, it is the child who must save the world.
Nevertheless, in these books, the bleakness is tempered. It is almost
as if the adults know that the "real" curriculum is outside of the
classes and is just enticing enough to interest these children in
their preparation for leadership. Real-world challenges provide the
problem-solving context so necessary for meaningful learning. As a
treatise on education, the Harry Potter books make an intriguing
statement on the boundaries across the school and popular curricula.
If we only knew the story of every other child at Hogwarts, could it
be that they, too, are having adventures? Maybe the school is set up
to trick people into coming together for real-life problem-solving
outside of school under the careful guidance of Dumbledore and his
friends?" 

"Maybe the school is set up to trick people into coming together for
real-life problem-solving outside of school under the careful guidance
of Dumbledore and his friends?" 





From annemehr at yahoo.com  Tue Dec  2 05:45:33 2003
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr)
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 05:45:33 -0000
Subject: Faith Education (was -RE: [HPFGU-OTChatter] the Eight Days of Chanukah)
In-Reply-To: <20986B5B-244D-11D8-889F-000A95E29F3E@fandm.edu>
Message-ID: <bqh8tt+3iqa@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Laura Ingalls Huntley
<lhuntley at f...> wrote:
> Iggy:
> > There is, supposedly written into law, a separation of Church and 
> > State.
> 
> Laura:
> I've always been sort of interested about this, actually.  Where does 
> this "separation of Church and State" that is so often cited, *come* 
> from, exactly?

Annemehr:
The phrase itself comes from a letter written by Thomas Jefferson to a
certain Christian denomination to reassure them that the government
was not about to declare another denomination to be the national religion:

"I contemplate with solemn reverence that act of the whole American
people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law
respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free
exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church
and State."

Annemehr
who finds history very enlightening when you can go straight to the
source (not quite what you find in school textbooks, eh?)






From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk  Tue Dec  2 08:59:34 2003
From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti)
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 08:59:34 -0000
Subject: Plain English Awards - Rumsfeld Honoured
Message-ID: <bqhk9m+8arg@eGroups.com>

Today in London, the Plain English Campaign host their annual awards.

Donald Rumsfeld sadly is unable to attend to receive in person 
the "Foot in Mouth" trophy, despite having beaten off strong 
competition from George W Bush and Britain's own Deputy Prime 
Minister, John Prescott.  

The award, for the single most confusing piece of public gobbledegook 
is for the following cryptic remarks made to baffled journalists:

"Reports that say something hasn't happened are always interesting to 
me because, as we know, there are known knowns - there are things we 
know we know.  We also know there are known unknowns - that is to say 
we know there are some things we do not know.  But there are also 
unknown unknowns - the ones we don't know we don't know."

Well deserved I say.

June




From kcawte at ntlworld.com  Tue Dec  2 18:40:34 2003
From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte)
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 10:40:34 -0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Christmas at Hogwarts (Was Re: Faith Education)
References: <bqgv96+g4v1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <018601c3b903$c57119b0$a6706751@kathryn>


Ms. Tattersall,
>
> What, then, of the students who might not be of either persuasion?
> I'm not an HP scholar--don't really feel comfortable participating on
> the main list--but JKR has obviously created a WW student population
> that represents the diverse population of the RW. The two students
> who come to mind are Parvati and Padma Patil, whom I would guess to
> be Indian or Pakistani. How do they feel about the Christmas tree if
> they come from, say, a Hindu culture?
> >

Actually I was discussing this with some friends just recently - muslim, and
sikh definitely, possibly hindu as well (can't quite remember who was
there) - they were saying that while they don't celebrate the *religious*
aspects of Christmas they do tend to celebrate it as a holiday with presents
and stuff, or at least those with kids do - after all any excuse for
presents and when all their school friends are celebratin they tend not to
want to feel left out.

K
"The Loudest Noise Comes From The Electric Minerva."




From fakeplastikcynic at hotmail.com  Tue Dec  2 10:45:28 2003
From: fakeplastikcynic at hotmail.com (Martha)
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 10:45:28 -0000
Subject: Christmas at Hogwarts (Was Re: Faith Education)
In-Reply-To: <bqgv96+g4v1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <bqhqg8+men1@eGroups.com>

Ms Tattersall:

<snippage>
Looks like they've decorated for 
> a traditional Christmas celebration at Hogwarts. Is that because 
the 
> majority of students at Hogwarts are of the Christian persuasion or 
> of the pagan persuasion? An interesting puzzle, since the Christmas 
> tree is part of both traditions in the modern world. Obviously 
(house 
> rivalries aside), they all seem to get along.

A few thoughts from Martha:

I always got the impression that magic in the JKR sense is 
unconnected with religion - it's something concrete, you can conjure 
up a chair or turn a hedgehog into a pincushion or make a potion to 
make you look like someone else, etc. There is ritual involved (for 
example, having to say certain words for certain spells, using a 
particular wand movement, stirring a potion however many times) but 
the end result is very specific. If you like, it's a measureable 
quantity. It's not the same as what we might call pagan magic in the 
real world, which is much closer to prayer in, say, Christianity. 
Students at Hogwarts are being instructed in magic as school age 
students in the real world (well, in Western society at least) are 
taught chemistry or maths or physics. So the religion of students is 
unconnected with their magical training. (Is this making sense?)

Ms Tattersall:

> What, then, of the students who might not be of either persuasion? 
> I'm not an HP scholar--don't really feel comfortable participating 
on 
> the main list--but JKR has obviously created a WW student 
population 
> that represents the diverse population of the RW. The two students 
> who come to mind are Parvati and Padma Patil, whom I would guess to 
> be Indian or Pakistani. How do they feel about the Christmas tree 
if 
> they come from, say, a Hindu culture?

Martha:

Agreed. Anthony Goldstein also springs to mind (correct me if I'm 
wrong, but "Goldstein" sounds Jewish to me). However, the ritual of 
Christmas - trees and advent calendars and Father Christmas and all - 
has become, I think, fairly far removed from actually going to church 
and so on, at least in Britain. I'm an atheist through and through 
and the majority of my friends are either non-religious or non-
Christian and we all still have Christmas trees with angels on top, 
and at school there were Christmas decorations and a Christmas dinner 
with karaoke and tinsel. My sister's husband is Sikh and they are 
bringing up their children without religion, but they still have a 
Christmas tree and stockings and things. It's like how the holidays 
are still called the Christmas/Easter holidays regardless of what you 
actually do with them. Hogwarts, as far as we know, follows this 
tradition. In any case, there may well be services for students of 
all religions at Hogwarts, but we haven't heard of them, because 
Harry hasn't gone to them.

On another note - and to keep this off-topic ;-) - there was me 
thinking the US constitution referred to the separation of church and 
*skate*. Skateboarding in church - all that kickflipping and ollying 
could ruin the ornate features of Catholic churches in particular. 
Either that or skate, as in the fish, isn't allowed to perform 
services because... OK, I'm kidding. Apologies. :-)

~ Martha




From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk  Tue Dec  2 13:11:26 2003
From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti)
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 13:11:26 -0000
Subject: Christmas at Hogwarts (Was Re: Faith Education)
In-Reply-To: <bqhqg8+men1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <bqi31u+gkhb@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Martha" 
<fakeplastikcynic at h...> wrote:
> Ms Tattersall:
> 
> <snippage>
> Looks like they've decorated for 
> > a traditional Christmas celebration at Hogwarts. Is that because 
> the 
> > majority of students at Hogwarts are of the Christian persuasion 
or 
> > of the pagan persuasion? An interesting puzzle, since the 
Christmas 
> > tree is part of both traditions in the modern world. Obviously 
> (house 
> > rivalries aside), they all seem to get along.
> 
> A few thoughts from Martha:
> 
> I always got the impression that magic in the JKR sense is 
> unconnected with religion - it's something concrete, you can 
conjure 
> up a chair or turn a hedgehog into a pincushion or make a potion to 
> make you look like someone else, etc. There is ritual involved (for 
> example, having to say certain words for certain spells, using a 
> particular wand movement, stirring a potion however many times) but 
> the end result is very specific. If you like, it's a measureable 
> quantity. It's not the same as what we might call pagan magic in 
the 
> real world, which is much closer to prayer in, say, Christianity. 
> Students at Hogwarts are being instructed in magic as school age 
> students in the real world (well, in Western society at least) are 
> taught chemistry or maths or physics. So the religion of students 
is 
> unconnected with their magical training. (Is this making sense?)

June:
I think from the outset, JKR has been at very careful pains NOT to 
get involved in any religious yea or nay arguments.  There is a 
Christmas in the books - and while Christmas is a Christian festival -
 it is here presented in the more secular way of being a good holiday 
where presents are given and the food is good.  

She is just as careful to avoid being claimed by pagans and wiccans 
too.  

I think there are two main reasons for this:

1.  A wish to make the books accessible to children from all 
backgrounds, ethnic and religious (obviously excepting where the 
parents are the kinds of fundamentalists who inveigh against these 
books and I doubt if too many of them are reading this post!)- 
because at the end of the day these are just good childrens's 
stories.  

2.  To avoid religious controversy where possible.  Clearly there's 
always the fanatics but you can't make any book fanatic proof.  
Having the books claimed by wiccans as justification for their 
existence would be equally against the audience she wishes to claim 
(and Wiccans out there - I'm not having a go - I don't have any need 
to prove my credentials as tolerant!)
> 
> Ms Tattersall:
> 
> > What, then, of the students who might not be of either 
persuasion? 
> > I'm not an HP scholar--don't really feel comfortable 
participating 
> on 
> > the main list--but JKR has obviously created a WW student 
> population 
> > that represents the diverse population of the RW. The two 
students 
> > who come to mind are Parvati and Padma Patil, whom I would guess 
to 
> > be Indian or Pakistani. How do they feel about the Christmas tree 
> if 
> > they come from, say, a Hindu culture?

June:
I can speak of the British Primary school system (aged 5 - 11) which 
usually has to deal with this the most, and generally schools are at 
pains to promote multi-culturalism in a healthy and tolerant way.  If 
kids pick up prejudices - they tend to learn these at home.  Schools 
here do take the MOST notice of Christmas unless they are in heavily 
asian immigrant areas for example - but I think that's because it can 
be presented in a child-friendly way.  However, children are 
generally taught about whichever other religious festivals are 
happening and affect their fellow pupils:  my daughter knew about 
Ramadan, Channukkah and Diwali very much earlier than I ever did and 
I thoroughly approved.  Not all parents DO and schools sometimes have 
to tread a difficult line between tradition and multi-culturalism.  
This works both ways, incidentally with some Muslim parents being 
opposed to their children learning about Christmas in addition to the 
expected stereotype of the white racist parents objecting to little 
Johnny learning about Diwali.

> 
> Martha:
> 
> Agreed. Anthony Goldstein also springs to mind (correct me if I'm 
> wrong, but "Goldstein" sounds Jewish to me). However, the ritual of 
> Christmas - trees and advent calendars and Father Christmas and 
all - 
> has become, I think, fairly far removed from actually going to 
church 
> and so on, at least in Britain. I'm an atheist through and through 
> and the majority of my friends are either non-religious or non-
> Christian and we all still have Christmas trees with angels on top, 
> and at school there were Christmas decorations and a Christmas 
dinner 
> with karaoke and tinsel. My sister's husband is Sikh and they are 
> bringing up their children without religion, but they still have a 
> Christmas tree and stockings and things. It's like how the holidays 
> are still called the Christmas/Easter holidays regardless of what 
you 
> actually do with them. Hogwarts, as far as we know, follows this 
> tradition. In any case, there may well be services for students of 
> all religions at Hogwarts, but we haven't heard of them, because 
> Harry hasn't gone to them.
> 


June:
I think the Christmas at Hogwarts was written in as much to give 
HARRY an experience of love and warmth - something he had NEVER 
experienced before (or at least since his parents died).  A subtext 
of the book is a boy's search for family and his receiving of simple 
but loving gifts - like the homemade Weasley jumper (and there were 
tears in my eyes when I read that bit) is the first experience of 
family, festival and happiness that he can remember in his life.  His 
receiving of "homemade" but loving presents may also be a sly 
broadside by JKR against the increasing commercialisation of 
Christmas - and given the current state of siege of my bank account 
at this time of year - what's wrong with that?

June





From stevejjen at earthlink.net  Tue Dec  2 14:13:57 2003
From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese)
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 14:13:57 -0000
Subject: Plain English Awards - Rumsfeld Honoured
In-Reply-To: <bqhk9m+8arg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <bqi6n5+gmv4@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "junediamanti" 
<june.diamanti at b...> wrote:
> Today in London, the Plain English Campaign host their annual 
awards.
> 
> Donald Rumsfeld sadly is unable to attend to receive in person 
> the "Foot in Mouth" trophy, despite having beaten off strong 
> competition from George W Bush and Britain's own Deputy Prime 
> Minister, John Prescott.  
> 
> The award, for the single most confusing piece of public 
gobbledegook 
> is for the following cryptic remarks made to baffled journalists:
> 
> "Reports that say something hasn't happened are always interesting 
to 
> me because, as we know, there are known knowns - there are things 
we 
> know we know.  We also know there are known unknowns - that is to 
say 
> we know there are some things we do not know.  But there are also 
> unknown unknowns - the ones we don't know we don't know."
> 
> Well deserved I say.


What? I can't believe Rumsfeld won't be there in person for this 
honor! I'm curious to hear what Bush and Prescott said that were in 
the running with this one. lol-- June, any idea?

Jen, who read that...ah...*sentence* twice and can't make heads or 
tails of it




From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com  Tue Dec  2 14:35:58 2003
From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (IggyMcSnurd)
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 08:35:58 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Plain English Awards - Rumsfeld Honoured
In-Reply-To: <bqhk9m+8arg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000101c3b8e1$9f7ba9e0$1396aec7@Einstein>

> June
>
>"Reports that say something hasn't happened are always interesting to 
>me because, as we know, there are known knowns - there are things we 
>know we know.? We also know there are known unknowns - that is to say 
>we know there are some things we do not know.? But there are also 
>unknown unknowns - the ones we don't know we don't know."
>


Iggy here:

How scared should I be by the fact that I understood that perfectly and
wasn't confused by it at all?

Iggy McSnurd

 





From marc.nguyen at greenheck.com  Tue Dec  2 14:30:30 2003
From: marc.nguyen at greenheck.com (Nguyen, Marc)
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 08:30:30 -0600 
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] trip to London
Message-ID: <61E2AF8C78F2D211B0B70008C7F921D50DAF4D32@orion2.greenops.com>

hello all. I know I don't post much, but I do enjoy reading this list. I do
have a question to all the Brits and Americans who have been in London
though.

I'm planning a trip to London December 27th - Jan 4th, and booked a couple
of taxi journeys through www.lodonblack-cab.com. We are also booked at the
Thistle Kensington Gardens Hotel.

Has anyone used this taxi service or hotel before? This is our honeymoon, so
I'm trying to make sure everything goes smoothly.

Also, if you really know London, can you recommend any restuarants or pubs?

Thanks for any information.


Marc



From kcawte at ntlworld.com  Tue Dec  2 22:50:21 2003
From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte)
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 14:50:21 -0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Plain English Awards - Rumsfeld Honoured
References: <000101c3b8e1$9f7ba9e0$1396aec7@Einstein>
Message-ID: <001001c3b926$aaa0da30$a6706751@kathryn>

Iggy here:

How scared should I be by the fact that I understood that perfectly and
wasn't confused by it at all?

K

That depends how much attention you usually pay to Rumsfeld's utterings. I'm
a newsjunkie (I watch news 24 constantly - almost) and I understood it on
the second reading, because I've heard Rumsfeld speak a lot and after a
while you get used to interpreting what he means versus what he actually
said.

However if you came to that fresh, not being used to his particular brand of
English, then you should probably start worrying :)

And as for what Prescott could have said to put him in the running, I'd say
pretty much anything that comes out of his mouth would qualify. He has an
almost unique ability to mangle the English language.

K

"The Loudest Noise Comes From The Electric Minerva."










From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk  Tue Dec  2 14:50:36 2003
From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti)
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 14:50:36 -0000
Subject: Plain English Awards - Rumsfeld Honoured
In-Reply-To: <bqi6n5+gmv4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <bqi8rs+ra2h@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" <stevejjen at e...> 
wrote:
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "junediamanti" 
> <june.diamanti at b...> wrote:
> > Today in London, the Plain English Campaign host their annual 
> awards.
> > 
> > Donald Rumsfeld sadly is unable to attend to receive in person 
> > the "Foot in Mouth" trophy, despite having beaten off strong 
> > competition from George W Bush and Britain's own Deputy Prime 
> > Minister, John Prescott.  
> > 
> > The award, for the single most confusing piece of public 
> gobbledegook 
> > is for the following cryptic remarks made to baffled journalists:
> > 
> > "Reports that say something hasn't happened are always 
interesting 
> to 
> > me because, as we know, there are known knowns - there are things 
> we 
> > know we know.  We also know there are known unknowns - that is to 
> say 
> > we know there are some things we do not know.  But there are also 
> > unknown unknowns - the ones we don't know we don't know."
> > 
> > Well deserved I say.
> 
> 
> What? I can't believe Rumsfeld won't be there in person for this 
> honor! I'm curious to hear what Bush and Prescott said that were in 
> the running with this one. lol-- June, any idea?
> 
> Jen, who read that...ah...*sentence* twice and can't make heads or 
> tails of it

No particular quotes from Bush and Prescott - just everything they 
say.

June




From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com  Tue Dec  2 14:53:10 2003
From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (IggyMcSnurd)
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 08:53:10 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Christmas at Hogwarts (Was Re: Faith Education)
In-Reply-To: <018601c3b903$c57119b0$a6706751@kathryn>
Message-ID: <000201c3b8e4$047b0050$1396aec7@Einstein>

> Kathryn
>Actually I was discussing this with some friends just recently -
Muslim, and
>Sikh definitely, possibly Hindu as well (can't quite remember who was
>there) - they were saying that while they don't celebrate the
*religious*
>aspects of Christmas they do tend to celebrate it as a holiday with
presents
>and stuff, or at least those with kids do - after all any excuse for
>presents and when all their school friends are celebrating they tend
not to
>want to feel left out.
>

Iggy here:

Well, speaking for myself as a Neo-Pagan, I don't celebrate Christmas
from a religious point of view, but instead from a traditional one.  (If
I did it completely the Pagan way, I'd be celebrating the Solstice...
which I do try to honor separately... usually by doing Ritual.  It's
dropped off a little down here, because I don't really have a private
place outdoors to do it.  *sigh*)

Most of my family is Christian in some form or another, and it's often
easier for me to keep up the tradition, especially when you consider
that I can do it as a tradition instead of as a Christian thing, and not
compromise my own beliefs. 

When I was also dating my Jewish GF, she celebrated Chanukah, and I
celebrated Christmas... so I got her eight little Chanukah gifts for her
and gave them on each day... and she got eight little Christmas gifts
for me and gave them to me on one day...  (I know... you'd expect it to
work out the other way around... but we agreed to *give* the gifts
according to the other's beliefs/traditions, rather than according to
ours.  The good thing was that this was a year when Chanukah overlapped
Christmas, so she still got to open a present while I was opening
mine...  *grin*)


Now, if we want to have some fun, we can go off in another direction and
point out a few theories that are out there...

1: I have read a few different articles that astronomers have calculated
when Christ would have been born, and it would actually have been late
August, or early September... not at the end of December.

2: Christmas was "moved" to not only be closer to the Pagan celebration
of the Solstice... but also closer to the celebration of one of the gods
(I can't remember which one) that most of the Roman Empire's soldiers
worshipped, that was traditionally near where Christmas is.  This was
done to be able to bring the Christian religion into these areas without
inspiring mass riots... especially by Rome's own army... and make it
more palatable to those groups.

3: Easter is pretty close to the Pagan's very important Spring Rites.
It's also supposed that Easter was moved closer to this for a similar
reason as item 2, above.  This is especially interesting when you take
into account that eggs and rabbits are symbols of fertility... something
to do with Spring, but not to really connect with the death and rebirth
of Christ.


Just another two centaurs worth...

Iggy McSnurd







From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com  Tue Dec  2 15:17:51 2003
From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (IggyMcSnurd)
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 09:17:51 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Plain English Awards - Rumsfeld Honoured
In-Reply-To: <001001c3b926$aaa0da30$a6706751@kathryn>
Message-ID: <000401c3b8e7$779cd970$1396aec7@Einstein>


>>Iggy here:
>>
>>How scared should I be by the fact that I understood that perfectly
and
>>wasn't confused by it at all?
>
>K
>
>However if you came to that fresh, not being used to his particular
brand of
>English, then you should probably start worrying :)
>
 
Iggy here:

Ok... I'm terrified then.  I've never read, or heard, any commends ever
made by Rumsfeld.  (To tell you how low my interest is in politics, I
couldn't tell you with even 75% confidence what function he serves in
the government.  Of course, from what little I've read, I'd say he's the
Head of Governmental Policy Obfuscation... and that nobody else really
knows what purpose he serves...)

(Maybe the fact that I have severe Attention Deficit Hyperactivity
Disorder helps.  I'm *used* to thinking in an abstract and convoluted
manner.  Maybe I should collect quotes from him and write a "Rumsfeld to
English Translator."  *grin*)


Iggy McSnurd









From annemehr at yahoo.com  Tue Dec  2 15:54:52 2003
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr)
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 15:54:52 -0000
Subject: Holiday times (Was: Christmas at Hogwarts (Was Re: Faith Education))
In-Reply-To: <000201c3b8e4$047b0050$1396aec7@Einstein>
Message-ID: <bqickc+imcb@eGroups.com>


> Iggy here:
> 
> Well, speaking for myself as a Neo-Pagan, I don't celebrate Christmas
> from a religious point of view, but instead from a traditional one.  (If
> I did it completely the Pagan way, I'd be celebrating the Solstice...
> which I do try to honor separately... usually by doing Ritual.  It's
> dropped off a little down here, because I don't really have a private
> place outdoors to do it.  *sigh*)

Annemehr:
That's too bad -- I just got a lovely mental image of a little garden
surrounded by high hedges (yew? or holly would be nice -- something
evergreen) and, well, whatever you need inside it...

Iggy:

> Now, if we want to have some fun, we can go off in another direction and
> point out a few theories that are out there...
> 
> 1: I have read a few different articles that astronomers have calculated
> when Christ would have been born, and it would actually have been late
> August, or early September... not at the end of December.
> 
> 2: Christmas was "moved" to not only be closer to the Pagan celebration
> of the Solstice... but also closer to the celebration of one of the gods
> (I can't remember which one) that most of the Roman Empire's soldiers
> worshipped, that was traditionally near where Christmas is.  This was
> done to be able to bring the Christian religion into these areas without
> inspiring mass riots... especially by Rome's own army... and make it
> more palatable to those groups.

Annemehr:
I didn't have the impression that Christmas was *moved* so much as
that by the time they began to really celebrate it, no one actually
knew when it was.  So they just picked what seemed to be the most
appropriate time -- a solstice feast that celebrates getting past the
darkest day (in the N. hemisphere, anyway!) and the hope of the coming
of the light.  Why shouldn't they pick a time when the people were
used to feasting?  It's a great time for a party!

Iggy:
> 3: Easter is pretty close to the Pagan's very important Spring Rites.
> It's also supposed that Easter was moved closer to this for a similar
> reason as item 2, above.  This is especially interesting when you take
> into account that eggs and rabbits are symbols of fertility... something
> to do with Spring, but not to really connect with the death and rebirth
> of Christ.

Annemehr:
Well, Easter always was in the Spring -- it happened at Passover time.
 Though they don't use Passover to set the date of it for some reason,
it's still in the same general time.  As for eggs and rabbits (and the
name "Easter" itself), why shouldn't the people keep them?  They're
fun and harmless and Christians like fertility, too. :-)  The
Fundamentalists might object, but they're a relatively small number. 
Come to think of it, Christians do use the egg to symbolise new life
-- the new kind we can have because of the resurrection, so that works.
> 
> 
> Just another two centaurs worth...
> 
> Iggy McSnurd

I'll see your centaurs and raise you a pixie!

Annemehr




From kcawte at ntlworld.com  Tue Dec  2 23:57:26 2003
From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte)
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 15:57:26 -0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Plain English Awards - Rumsfeld Honoured
References: <000401c3b8e7$779cd970$1396aec7@Einstein>
Message-ID: <000d01c3b930$096a5c40$a6706751@kathryn>

>
> Iggy here:
>
> Ok... I'm terrified then.  I've never read, or heard, any commends ever
> made by Rumsfeld.  (To tell you how low my interest is in politics, I
> couldn't tell you with even 75% confidence what function he serves in
> the government.  Of course, from what little I've read, I'd say he's the
> Head of Governmental Policy Obfuscation... and that nobody else really
> knows what purpose he serves...)

K

Well I have trouble with the actual titles of US politicians (since I tend
to call them by their UK equivalents) but I think he's the Defence
Secretary - and an inability to communicate clearly is obviously one of the
most important qualifications to hold in a position like that ... actually,
do you think that's why they picked him :)

I don't know how he manages it but his other sterling quality is the ability
to completely ignore the question he was asked, say what he was intending to
say all along *and get away with it*. I don't know whether US journalists
are just politer than UK ones but I would love to see him try that with
Paxman.

K

"The Loudest Noise Comes From The Electric Minerva."

>




From msbeadsley at yahoo.com  Tue Dec  2 17:34:03 2003
From: msbeadsley at yahoo.com (msbeadsley)
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 17:34:03 -0000
Subject: Religious Freedom...Was Re: Faith Education
In-Reply-To: <000801c3b843$3b540eb0$f535d843@Einstein>
Message-ID: <bqiieb+lq3t@eGroups.com>

> >Erin:
> >Yeah, there are lots of those Southern Baptists in Alabama, aren't 
> >there, Iggy?  Practically all of my friends are (I'm Methodist) 
> >and one of the worst moments I've had with that recently was going 
> >to the mall last month with a big group of friends and passing a 
> >booth with a petition to support Roy Moore and his ten 
> >commandments monument.  All my friends ran over there to sign it, 
> >and I just sort of stood there akwardly.  

>* It was kind of bad.  All of them stayed there for a few minutes 
>* talking about how awful it was, the government trying to take 
>* religion out of our lives, and they kept looking back at me, the 
>* people running the booth would glance over at me... I finally 
>* drifted a bit closer, and one of my friends asked if I wanted to 
>* sign and I had to say "No, thanks", and then of course they ALL 
>* looked at me like "she's one of those evil people who's not a real 
>* christian", but no one said anything.  For which I was 
>* grateful, 'cause I don't think some of our friendships could have 
>* stood the ensuing argument.

> Iggy here:
> *laugh* I would have happily debated the subject with them.  (There 
> are some things I won't back down from... and defending what I 
> believe is one of them.)

Iggy, did you mean to come across like, "Well, you know, if it had 
been *me*, I'd have gotten into it with them and stood up for my 
principles"?  (FYI: It's the impression I got.) I put back in what 
you snipped of Erin's post (and marked it with asterisks) because 
it's germane to what I want to say.

<snip some Iggy>
> This means that people aren't supposed to be nervous or scared to 
> speak their minds about what they believe... anywhere they want to 
> speak their views... respectfully, at least.  (I've had probably 5 
> conversations about faith and religion with someone down here in 
> the last 3.5 years I've lived here.  Mostly because I worry that, 
> with the grapevine around here, I'd end up being cast out by the 
> entire town simply because I stated a view or two that doesn't mesh 
> with the Bible...)

(So, 'scuse me, Iggy, but what happened to not backing down on things 
you believe in? Yes, I'm messing with you here a bit.)

It's true that here in the U.S. we are guaranteed freedom of 
religion, and our government was based partly on a division between 
church and state; but what both Iggy and Erin are talking about here 
is a *social* phenomenon. Being "nervous and scared" because you're 
afraid your friends or neighbors will criticize or ostracize you is 
real different from being "nervous and scared" that cops or soldiers 
will break down your door and march you off to prison. (Scary, but at 
least when it's the government I'll bet you know keeping your mouth 
shut is just good common sense; while not debating regular folks can 
feel like cowardice.)

It appears that society in Alabama is pretty Southern Baptist. (I 
was "saved" in a So. Baptist church, my grandmother's, in Indiana, 
when I was thirteen, but have been a neo-Pagan for the last twelve 
years...and spent fifteen years before that as a devout agnostic 
(that's supposed to be amusing and true, both).) In my experience, 
the Southern Baptist church is all about emotional hooks and dragging 
people to "salvation" whichever way you can. (Hey, what's more 
important: someone's intellectual freedom, or the disposition of 
their immortal soul? The end justifies the means for many "witnesses" 
in the more charismatic religions.) And you don't have to do anything 
but *believe* in order to get your ticket punched (cheap at twice the 
price).

But, IIRC, Roy Moore rode some other controversy into his position of 
elected judge; so chances are he's now using the very emotional 
controversy around his public display (on government property and as 
a government official) of the commandments as a springboard to votes 
for his electoral effort. (Oh, and this is not about states' rights, 
either, IMO.)

I am open about being pagan. I don't try to change anyone else's 
mind, however, or suggest that my way is THE WAY. (One of my best 
friends is a Christian family man from Kansas who works in IT; the 
other is a hippie feminist Buddhist Jew artist from the Bronx who's 
utterly technophobic...and yes, they are also friends with each 
other.)

The thing about most religions is that they insist that *their* 
scripture is the *right* stuff. (Churches and faiths have become 
(like other organisms) about ensuring their own survival, rather than 
about teaching truth.) So any time you engage in debate there has to 
be a winner and a loser. Only one *side* can be right. And I think 
that's ridiculous, myself; if any human (or group of humans) could 
define IT, IT wouldn't (be big enough to) be GOD. IMHO. (Let's hear 
it for GOD THE INCOMPREHENSIBLE.) End of rant and my religion in a 
nutshell (appropriate for a nut?).

Sandy aka msbeadsley, who has been *real* busy lately/lurking




From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk  Tue Dec  2 18:34:00 2003
From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak)
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 18:34:00 -0000
Subject: Plain English Awards - Rumsfeld Honoured
In-Reply-To: <001001c3b926$aaa0da30$a6706751@kathryn>
Message-ID: <bqiluo+bop4@eGroups.com>

Kathyrn wrote:
> That depends how much attention you usually pay to Rumsfeld's 
> And as for what Prescott could have said to put him in the 
> running, I'd say pretty much anything that comes out of his mouth 
> would qualify. He has an almost unique ability to mangle the 
> English language.

On the other hand, his ability to deliver a knock out punch to  
protesters is a model of clarity and eloquence.

;-)

Pip!Squeak




From msbeadsley at yahoo.com  Tue Dec  2 18:36:18 2003
From: msbeadsley at yahoo.com (msbeadsley)
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 18:36:18 -0000
Subject: It's Simple, Really--Was Re: Plain English Awards - Rumsfeld Honoured
In-Reply-To: <000101c3b8e1$9f7ba9e0$1396aec7@Einstein>
Message-ID: <bqim32+ilrl@eGroups.com>

>"Reports that say something hasn't happened are always interesting to
>me because, as we know, there are known knowns - there are things we
>know we know.  We also know there are known unknowns - that is to say
>we know there are some things we do not know.  But there are also
>unknown unknowns - the ones we don't know we don't know."

> Iggy here:
> 
> How scared should I be by the fact that I understood that perfectly 
> and wasn't confused by it at all?

Me, too, Iggy! To translate as best I can:

> "Reports that say something hasn't happened are always interesting 
> to me..."

I took this to mean: "It's (nearly?) impossible to prove a negative, 
so what do such reports really mean?"

> "...as we know, there are known knowns - there are things we 
> know we know..."

There are facts about which we agree, that are not in dispute, that 
make up our accepted picture of *how things are*.

> We also know there are known unknowns - that is to say we know 
> there are some things we do not know

We have acknowledged gaps in our information: for instance the 
precise whereabouts of certain individuals we'd really like to locate 
(and eradicate).

> "But there are also unknown unknowns - the ones we don't know we 
> don't know."

Information has to have a context to be useful. Otherwise the answers 
are just random bits of data with no relevance. For instance, 
noticing the pre-9/11 pilot training some Muslim men were undergoing 
might have been useful; knowing that many or most of them were 
graduates of radical Islamic jihadic schools could have been *very* 
useful.

(Some possibly helpful analogy/background: Sometimes we learn things 
organically, like our mother tongue. Repetition and the need to 
communicate with the big people who bring the baby bottle and change 
our diapers and hopefully cuddle us all come together and gradually 
we acquire, we grow an understanding, of our language in context. We 
also learn things more deliberately, like a second language later, 
which we learn by attaching each "foreign" word to the the one we 
already know, thereby giving it a context at one remove. (Hence the 
notion of getting to the point of "thinking in (for instance) French" 
for a native English speaker (as opposed to constantly translating in 
ones head).)

With intelligence (the military/CIA kind; not always an oxymoron) we 
have to figure out what's important and what isn't; resolving all the 
pixels into a picture is the hard part, because each one (we know 
it's a word; we just have no idea what the word means) has to be 
manually manipulated until the picture becomes clear.  Until we know 
how and where the bits fit in, they're (to go a step further and then 
come back), they're "unknown knowns"; and so the bits we don't have 
yet (answers for which we have not yet discovered the questions) are 
the "unknown unknowns."

Simple, yes? (Is that even close to what you got, Iggy?)

Sandy




From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk  Tue Dec  2 19:16:14 2003
From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti)
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 19:16:14 -0000
Subject: Plain English Awards - Rumsfeld Honoured
In-Reply-To: <bqiluo+bop4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <bqiodu+37pl@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "bluesqueak" <pipdowns at e...> 
wrote:
> Kathyrn wrote:
> > That depends how much attention you usually pay to Rumsfeld's 
> > And as for what Prescott could have said to put him in the 
> > running, I'd say pretty much anything that comes out of his 
mouth 
> > would qualify. He has an almost unique ability to mangle the 
> > English language.
> 
> On the other hand, his ability to deliver a knock out punch to  
> protesters is a model of clarity and eloquence.
> 
> ;-)
> 
> Pip!Squeak

However, while conceding all the above points, his abilities to 
deliver a rouse the masses conference speech take some beating too.

June 
(Labour - but Old Labour)





From lhuntley at fandm.edu  Tue Dec  2 19:29:19 2003
From: lhuntley at fandm.edu (Laura Ingalls Huntley)
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 14:29:19 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] My Riding Boots Have Finally Come!
In-Reply-To: <20986B5B-244D-11D8-889F-000A95E29F3E@fandm.edu>
Message-ID: <D2E721C5-24FD-11D8-889F-000A95E29F3E@fandm.edu>

Sorry for a *completely* irrelevant post, but I've got to say this to 
*someone* and everyone else I know is in class.  I think.

MY NEW RIDING BOOTS ARE HERE!

Yes, that's right.  After three months of waiting, my new custom-fit 
leather dressage boots have finally arrived.  I am beside myself with 
joy.  ^_^

On a side note, though, like all other new riding boots they are about 
as flexible as a steel post.

Can't...move...my...ankles...ow, ow, ow.

Anyway, thank you for sharing this moment of supreme happiness with me.

Laura (who is anticipating a great deal of pain tomorrow, when she 
actually tries to *ride* in these things.)




From kcawte at ntlworld.com  Wed Dec  3 04:18:43 2003
From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte)
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 20:18:43 -0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Plain English Awards - Rumsfeld Honoured
References: <bqiodu+37pl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <005201c3b954$a32db920$a6706751@kathryn>



June

>
> However, while conceding all the above points, his abilities to
> deliver a rouse the masses conference speech take some beating too.
>
K

Agreed - but then that's a talent where the ability to make sense and speak
coherent English isn't a requirement (and can sometimes be a disadvantage).
TB's ability to give such a speech is somewhat lacking imho, something which
should probably worry him now Brown seems to have developed it in spades.
Just for once I'd like to see him win at PMQs too - his performance is
pathetic most weeks. (I don't actually support TB or Howard but some honest
competition would be nice, most weeks the words fish and barrel come to
mind, even IDS could beat him most times, and Hague shredded him on a
regular basis despite being a wet rag the rest of the time)

K

"The Loudest Noise Comes From The Electric Minerva."




From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com  Tue Dec  2 20:18:51 2003
From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (IggyMcSnurd)
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 14:18:51 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Holiday times (Was: Christmas at Hogwarts (Was Re: Faith Education))
In-Reply-To: <bqickc+imcb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000001c3b911$82b8fd50$dd94aec7@Einstein>

>> Iggy here:
>> 
>> Well, speaking for myself as a Neo-Pagan, I don't celebrate Christmas
>> from a religious point of view, but instead from a traditional one.?
(If
>> I did it completely the Pagan way, I'd be celebrating the Solstice...
>> which I do try to honor separately... usually by doing Ritual.? It's
>> dropped off a little down here, because I don't really have a private
>> place outdoors to do it.? *sigh*)
>
>Annemehr:
>That's too bad -- I just got a lovely mental image of a little garden
>surrounded by high hedges (yew? or holly would be nice -- something
>evergreen) and, well, whatever you need inside it...

Iggy here:

Actually, when we finally manage to buy a place of our own and some
decent land, I plan on setting aside a corner for just that type of
purpose.  For one thing, I plan to have us build a fence around our back
yard, and if I put a little area for myself in one of the back corners,
I can do ritual without being disturbed by any neighbors and still be
outside.

(I'm thinking of a small area with a table and bench, with a small
fountain and reflecting globe.  All of that surrounded by some hedges or
high, flowering bushes or vines.  This would be an area both for
meditation and ritual.  Personally, I'd love to have a small sock garden
and coi pond, but that would probably be too much to ask from my wife
unless we get a *lot* of land.  If I get a good enough job after my
degree, that might work...  Let's all cross our fingers for me.  *grin*)



Iggy McSnurd

 





From tammy at mauswerks.net  Tue Dec  2 20:31:01 2003
From: tammy at mauswerks.net (Tammy Rizzo)
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 15:31:01 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Plain English Awards - Rumsfeld Honoured
In-Reply-To: <000101c3b8e1$9f7ba9e0$1396aec7@Einstein>
References: <bqhk9m+8arg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3FCCB035.25685.34EA21@localhost>

On 2 Dec 2003 at 8:35, IggyMcSnurd wrote:

> > June
> >
> >"Reports that say something hasn't happened are always interesting to
> > me because, as we know, there are known knowns - there are things we
> > know we know.? We also know there are known unknowns - that is to
> >say we know there are some things we do not know.? But there are also
> > unknown unknowns - the ones we don't know we don't know."
> >
> 
> 
> Iggy here:
> 
> How scared should I be by the fact that I understood that perfectly
> and wasn't confused by it at all?

Now Tammy:
I'd say, "Pretty scared", since that's how I feel, too!  Made PERFECT sense to me, 
from the very first read.

***
Tammy
tammy at mauswerks.net





From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk  Tue Dec  2 20:54:56 2003
From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti)
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 20:54:56 -0000
Subject: Plain English Awards - Rumsfeld Honoured
In-Reply-To: <3FCCB035.25685.34EA21@localhost>
Message-ID: <bqiu71+vh4q@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Tammy Rizzo" <tammy at m...> 
wrote:
> On 2 Dec 2003 at 8:35, IggyMcSnurd wrote:
> 
> > > June
> > >
> > >"Reports that say something hasn't happened are always 
interesting to
> > > me because, as we know, there are known knowns - there are 
things we
> > > know we know.? We also know there are known unknowns - that is 
to
> > >say we know there are some things we do not know.? But there 
are also
> > > unknown unknowns - the ones we don't know we don't know."
> > >
> > 
> > 
> > Iggy here:
> > 
> > How scared should I be by the fact that I understood that 
perfectly
> > and wasn't confused by it at all?
> 
> Now Tammy:
> I'd say, "Pretty scared", since that's how I feel, too!  Made 
PERFECT sense to me, 
> from the very first read.
> 
> ***
> Tammy
> tammy at m...

June:

We should all be scared.  For my sins I regularly attend meetings.  
Which means the bullshit quote can get very high.  Now as you all 
know I have nothing against you guys across the pond - but some of 
the office speak we seem to have imported from yourselves, I could 
do without.

Here's a few class examples:

Win-win
Level playing field
Hit the ground running
Play hardball (what???)
Any sentence with the word "strategic" in it
Synergy
Proactive
Think outside the box - THIS RENDERS THE SPEAKER LIABLE TO A SMACK 
IN THE TEETH FROM ME!
Ballpark
Leverage
Transparency
Added Value
Best practice
Total quality

Yeah I know a lot of these can be found in the Bullshit bingo games 
that are available on the net - but sadly I here a lot of this for 
real.

June






From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com  Tue Dec  2 21:03:10 2003
From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (IggyMcSnurd)
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 15:03:10 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Religious Freedom...Was Re: Faith Education
In-Reply-To: <bqiieb+lq3t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000301c3b917$b5773260$dd94aec7@Einstein>


>> Iggy here:
>> *laugh* I would have happily debated the subject with them.? (There 
>> are some things I won't back down from... and defending what I 
>> believe is one of them.)


> Sandy
>Iggy, did you mean to come across like, "Well, you know, if it had 
>been *me*, I'd have gotten into it with them and stood up for my 
>principles"?? (FYI: It's the impression I got.) I put back in what 
>you snipped of Erin's post (and marked it with asterisks) because 
>it's germane to what I want to say.

Iggy here:

No.  How I intended it to come across was:  I am the kind of person who,
if an argument had started, would happily have been in the middle of it.
My close friends know me well enough that, if they disapprove of my
personal views and try to impose theirs on me, they'll have an argument
on their hands.  (*chuckle* I can enjoy debates about religion,
philosophy, and sexuality at the drop of a hat...)

If someone asks if I'll sign a petition I don't agree with, I'll flat
out say "No."  If they ask why, I'll tell them.

And if someone looks at me like they're aghast that I'm not a real
Christian, then they don't know me at all... and I would respond to
their looks by either simply walking away (friends or not) or calling
them on it.

I'm not saying that she failed in defending her principles.  Had she
signed a petition she didn't agree with, then she would have failed.  I
was simply stating that I tend to be (and happily, sometimes) more
willing to have a confrontation about these things.  Personally, I
*enjoy* shaking up people's views about things sometimes and seeing if
their eyes are really open to what's going on.


<snip some Iggy>
> This means that people aren't supposed to be nervous or scared to 
> speak their minds about what they believe... anywhere they want to 
> speak their views... respectfully, at least.? (I've had probably 5 
> conversations about faith and religion with someone down here in 
> the last 3.5 years I've lived here.? Mostly because I worry that, 
> with the grapevine around here, I'd end up being cast out by the 
> entire town simply because I stated a view or two that doesn't mesh 
> with the Bible...)


> Sandy
>(So, 'scuse me, Iggy, but what happened to not backing down on things 
>you believe in? Yes, I'm messing with you here a bit.)

Iggy here:

With this point, I think I worded it a little wrong, or incompletely.  

I am willing to debate things and not back down from them if someone
wants a confrontation, or an open minded discussion.  Unfortunately,
among other things, my landlord is a very "strict and solid" Christian
who tends to have narrow views about some things.  (For one, he's even
biased strongly against Catholics... which is still a form of
Christianity.)  

If me getting into a confrontation with someone about religion and faith
gets back to him (and it would), it could make living in these
apartments difficult.  For one thing, his grandson is my step-son's best
friend... (there goes that friendship out the window...) and there would
possibly other difficulties for the rest of my family here.

While I won't back down from a confrontation, I also won't seek one out
when it could make things difficult for the rest of my family.  If
someone challenges me on something, then I'll back up what I believe...
and it's happened before.  But, at least until we have a house of our
own that we can't get kicked out of or have things become difficult at
for my beliefs, I'm not going to go "borrowing trouble" as it were.

Get the difference?


> Sandy
>I am open about being pagan. I don't try to change anyone else's 
>mind, however, or suggest that my way is THE WAY. (One of my best 
>friends is a Christian family man from Kansas who works in IT; the 
>other is a hippie feminist Buddhist Jew artist from the Bronx who's 
>utterly technophobic...and yes, they are also friends with each 
>other.)

Iggy here:

*grin* If anyone asks me what I believe, I freely let them know I'm a
Neo-Pagan.  I'll also mention that (aside from the occasional discussion
I've had with my wife in the past) those 3-4 conversations I've had have
been with people who have come to our door trying to get us to come to
their church.  I let them know that they'll have to talk to my wife, but
I'm a Neo-Pagan, so I don't attend church.  They ask me what a Neo-Pagan
is, and I let them know my beliefs.

One of the problems I ran into on my last job was when I asked for Oct
31 and Nov 1 off.  They asked me why I needed to get those days off, and
I told them that they are a "holiday of faith" for me.  The manager
asked me about what faith I was, and I told her.  Like many I've
encountered, her first comment was "Oh, you're a Satan worshipper."
Needless to say, I had to spend a good amount of time explaining the
error of that statement.  (She had never even heard of a Wiccan or a
Druid...)  For some reason, since then, I got some very odd shifts, and
had a decision made against me that got me fired in a dispute with
another employee... I was never able to charge them with discrimination
since it was "at will" employment.  

On the good side, Karma hit them in the butt, since they got bought out
and shut down about a month later and without any warning.  Some of them
went to work for the company that had originally owned the other
business, but about 3 months later, *that* company get bought out, shut
down, and all the original employees fired...  (Ain't Karma a **tch to
mess with sometimes?  *grin*)

As for a variety of friends for me... 

My wife is a Southern Baptist,
One of my friends is a "born again" Christian,
My best friends is a gay, black, pagan with a Jewish family,
My sister is a modern day Quaker,
My mom and her family are Roman Catholic,
My dad's family is Southern Baptist, 
And another of my friends is an atheist who's into S&M...

And we all... (Well, those who know each other) get along great.  *grin*




> Sandy
>The thing about most religions is that they insist that *their* 
>scripture is the *right* stuff. (Churches and faiths have become 
>(like other organisms) about ensuring their own survival, rather than 
>about teaching truth.) So any time you engage in debate there has to 
>be a winner and a loser. Only one *side* can be right. And I think 
>that's ridiculous, myself; if any human (or group of humans) could 
>define IT, IT wouldn't (be big enough to) be GOD. IMHO. (Let's hear 
>it for GOD THE INCOMPREHENSIBLE.) End of rant and my religion in a 
>nutshell (appropriate for a nut?).
 
Iggy here:

Personally, I don't think there has to be a winner or loser.  And
neither side *has* to be right.  I feel that the best thing that can
come out of a debate is increased understanding of the other person's
perspective, and an agreement to respect their choice in life.

I've actually spent a few, long conversations with Kelley (from these
lists) about perspectives of faith.  Part of what I do, personally, is
not try to find the differences between the faiths, but rather to find
the core similarities between them.

For example:

What's the real difference between a prayer and an incantation?
Both are a series of words said with intent to enlist the aid of a Power
to help you achieve a desired result.

What's the real difference between Ritual, and a religious Rite such as
Communion?
Both involve the structured use of items, both literal and symbolic, in
a structured manner, and accompanied by prayer/incantations with the
intent to achieve a desired result with the aid of a Power.


What's the real difference between the Ten Commandments and the
Threefold Law?
With the exception of "Thou Shalt Have No God Before Me," it all
basically boils down to:  Be a good person and respect others.


Just my two centaurs worth... (oh, and since I was raised a pixie
earlier, I'll see your pixie and add two House Elves.)


Iggy McSnurd







From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com  Tue Dec  2 21:08:14 2003
From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (IggyMcSnurd)
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 15:08:14 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] It's Simple, Really--Was Re: Plain English Awards - Rumsfeld Honoured
In-Reply-To: <bqim32+ilrl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000401c3b918$6a76f380$dd94aec7@Einstein>

>Sandy
>Simple, yes? (Is that even close to what you got, Iggy?)

Iggy here:

Ummm...  Let me simplify it even further:

There are things we know that we know.  (Like our name.)

There are things we know we don't know.  (Like the exact temperature of
Pluto in Kelvin.)

And there's stuff out there we're completely unaware of in any manner.
(I can't give an example here, because then I'd know that I don't know
it...)

Even simpler... Yes?  *grin*


Iggy McSnurd







From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com  Tue Dec  2 21:12:33 2003
From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (IggyMcSnurd)
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 15:12:33 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] My Riding Boots Have Finally Come!
In-Reply-To: <D2E721C5-24FD-11D8-889F-000A95E29F3E@fandm.edu>
Message-ID: <000501c3b919$047a7100$dd94aec7@Einstein>

>From: Laura Ingalls Huntley 
>
>Sorry for a *completely* irrelevant post, but I've got to say this to 
>*someone* and everyone else I know is in class.? I think.
>
>MY NEW RIDING BOOTS ARE HERE!
>
>Yes, that's right.? After three months of waiting, my new custom-fit 
>leather dressage boots have finally arrived.? I am beside myself with 
>joy.? ^_^
>


Iggy here:

I think some people out there might actually be more interested in when
the riding crop gets there.  

*laugh*

(Good thing I'm married... or I'd get in trouble here.  *snicker*)


Iggy McSnurd

(Who doesn't ride, but still has the buggy whip his friend who's into,
well... an alternative lifestyle...gave him, for some reason. What can I
say? I'm a pack rat...)







From kcawte at ntlworld.com  Wed Dec  3 05:21:01 2003
From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte)
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 21:21:01 -0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] It's Simple, Really--Was Re: Plain English Awards - Rumsfeld Honoured
References: <000401c3b918$6a76f380$dd94aec7@Einstein>
Message-ID: <007501c3b95d$584bb700$a6706751@kathryn>

Iggy
>
> And there's stuff out there we're completely unaware of in any manner.
> (I can't give an example here, because then I'd know that I don't know
> it...)
>
> Even simpler... Yes?  *grin*
>
>

Well taking the September 11th example someone used earlier - before 9/11
(am I the only one who sees that and wonders what happened on the 9th of
November?) we didn't know people were planning to bring down the WTC. Had we
known that there was a massive terrorist plot in existence we would have
known that we didn't know that, but since we didn't even know of the plot we
didn't know that we were unaware of the specifics of it - ugh I'm starting
to *sound* like Rumsfeld.

Better example - I studied Charles II and his CABAL, I now can't remember
their names, but before I studied the subject I didn't even know they
existed. So now I am better informed because I know that I am ignorant
whereas before I was blissfully unaware of the fact :)

K




From kcawte at ntlworld.com  Wed Dec  3 05:22:34 2003
From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte)
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 21:22:34 -0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] My Riding Boots Have Finally Come!
References: <000501c3b919$047a7100$dd94aec7@Einstein>
Message-ID: <007801c3b95d$a04ffe80$a6706751@kathryn>




Iggy here:

I think some people out there might actually be more interested in when
the riding crop gets there.

*laugh*

(Good thing I'm married... or I'd get in trouble here.  *snicker*)


lol - or possibly you're in more trouble since you *are* married and are
making comments like that to someone other than the SO.

K

*who is single and as such can use innuendo whenever she wants*


"The Loudest Noise Comes From The Electric Minerva."





From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com  Tue Dec  2 21:29:05 2003
From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (IggyMcSnurd)
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 15:29:05 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Religious Freedom...Was Re: Faith Education
In-Reply-To: <bqiieb+lq3t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000001c3b91b$54321610$6086aec7@Einstein>


Iggy here:

Let's try sending this again, since it looks like YahooMort AK'd my
previous attempt.

Iggy



>> Iggy here:
>> *laugh* I would have happily debated the subject with them.? (There
>> are some things I won't back down from... and defending what I 
>> believe is one of them.)


> Sandy
>Iggy, did you mean to come across like, "Well, you know, if it had 
>been *me*, I'd have gotten into it with them and stood up for my 
>principles"?? (FYI: It's the impression I got.) I put back in what 
>you snipped of Erin's post (and marked it with asterisks) because 
>it's germane to what I want to say.

Iggy here:

No.  How I intended it to come across was:  I am the kind of person who,
if an argument had started, would happily have been in the middle of it.
My close friends know me well enough that, if they disapprove of my
personal views and try to impose theirs on me, they'll have an argument
on their hands.  (*chuckle* I can enjoy debates about religion,
philosophy, and sexuality at the drop of a hat...)

If someone asks if I'll sign a petition I don't agree with, I'll flat
out say "No."  If they ask why, I'll tell them.

And if someone looks at me like they're aghast that I'm not a real
Christian, then they don't know me at all... and I would respond to
their looks by either simply walking away (friends or not) or calling
them on it.

I'm not saying that she failed in defending her principles.  Had she
signed a petition she didn't agree with, then she would have failed.  I
was simply stating that I tend to be (and happily, sometimes) more
willing to have a confrontation about these things.  Personally, I
*enjoy* shaking up people's views about things sometimes and seeing if
their eyes are really open to what's going on.


<snip some Iggy>
> This means that people aren't supposed to be nervous or scared to 
> speak their minds about what they believe... anywhere they want to 
> speak their views... respectfully, at least.? (I've had probably 5 
> conversations about faith and religion with someone down here in 
> the last 3.5 years I've lived here.? Mostly because I worry that, 
> with the grapevine around here, I'd end up being cast out by the 
> entire town simply because I stated a view or two that doesn't mesh 
> with the Bible...)


> Sandy
>(So, 'scuse me, Iggy, but what happened to not backing down on things 
>you believe in? Yes, I'm messing with you here a bit.)

Iggy here:

With this point, I think I worded it a little wrong, or incompletely.  

I am willing to debate things and not back down from them if someone
wants a confrontation, or an open minded discussion.  Unfortunately,
among other things, my landlord is a very "strict and solid" Christian
who tends to have narrow views about some things.  (For one, he's even
biased strongly against Catholics... which is still a form of
Christianity.)  

If me getting into a confrontation with someone about religion and faith
gets back to him (and it would), it could make living in these
apartments difficult.  For one thing, his grandson is my step-son's best
friend... (there goes that friendship out the window...) and there would
possibly other difficulties for the rest of my family here.

While I won't back down from a confrontation, I also won't seek one out
when it could make things difficult for the rest of my family.  If
someone challenges me on something, then I'll back up what I believe...
and it's happened before.  But, at least until we have a house of our
own that we can't get kicked out of or have things become difficult at
for my beliefs, I'm not going to go "borrowing trouble" as it were.

Get the difference?


> Sandy
>I am open about being pagan. I don't try to change anyone else's 
>mind, however, or suggest that my way is THE WAY. (One of my best 
>friends is a Christian family man from Kansas who works in IT; the 
>other is a hippie feminist Buddhist Jew artist from the Bronx who's 
>utterly technophobic...and yes, they are also friends with each 
>other.)

Iggy here:

*grin* If anyone asks me what I believe, I freely let them know I'm a
Neo-Pagan.  I'll also mention that (aside from the occasional discussion
I've had with my wife in the past) those 3-4 conversations I've had have
been with people who have come to our door trying to get us to come to
their church.  I let them know that they'll have to talk to my wife, but
I'm a Neo-Pagan, so I don't attend church.  They ask me what a Neo-Pagan
is, and I let them know my beliefs.

One of the problems I ran into on my last job was when I asked for Oct
31 and Nov 1 off.  They asked me why I needed to get those days off, and
I told them that they are a "holiday of faith" for me.  The manager
asked me about what faith I was, and I told her.  Like many I've
encountered, her first comment was "Oh, you're a Satan worshipper."
Needless to say, I had to spend a good amount of time explaining the
error of that statement.  (She had never even heard of a Wiccan or a
Druid...)  For some reason, since then, I got some very odd shifts, and
had a decision made against me that got me fired in a dispute with
another employee... I was never able to charge them with discrimination
since it was "at will" employment.  

On the good side, Karma hit them in the butt, since they got bought out
and shut down about a month later and without any warning.  Some of them
went to work for the company that had originally owned the other
business, but about 3 months later, *that* company get bought out, shut
down, and all the original employees fired...  (Ain't Karma a **tch to
mess with sometimes?  *grin*)

As for a variety of friends for me... 

My wife is a Southern Baptist,
One of my friends is a "born again" Christian,
My best friends is a gay, black, pagan with a Jewish family,
My sister is a modern day Quaker,
My mom and her family are Roman Catholic,
My dad's family is Southern Baptist, 
And another of my friends is an atheist who's into S&M...

And we all... (Well, those who know each other) get along great.  *grin*




> Sandy
>The thing about most religions is that they insist that *their* 
>scripture is the *right* stuff. (Churches and faiths have become 
>(like other organisms) about ensuring their own survival, rather than 
>about teaching truth.) So any time you engage in debate there has to 
>be a winner and a loser. Only one *side* can be right. And I think 
>that's ridiculous, myself; if any human (or group of humans) could 
>define IT, IT wouldn't (be big enough to) be GOD. IMHO. (Let's hear 
>it for GOD THE INCOMPREHENSIBLE.) End of rant and my religion in a 
>nutshell (appropriate for a nut?).
 
Iggy here:

Personally, I don't think there has to be a winner or loser.  And
neither side *has* to be right.  I feel that the best thing that can
come out of a debate is increased understanding of the other person's
perspective, and an agreement to respect their choice in life.

I've actually spent a few, long conversations with Kelley (from these
lists) about perspectives of faith.  Part of what I do, personally, is
not try to find the differences between the faiths, but rather to find
the core similarities between them.

For example:

What's the real difference between a prayer and an incantation?
Both are a series of words said with intent to enlist the aid of a Power
to help you achieve a desired result.

What's the real difference between Ritual, and a religious Rite such as
Communion?
Both involve the structured use of items, both literal and symbolic, in
a structured manner, and accompanied by prayer/incantations with the
intent to achieve a desired result with the aid of a Power.


What's the real difference between the Ten Commandments and the
Threefold Law?
With the exception of "Thou Shalt Have No God Before Me," it all
basically boils down to:  Be a good person and respect others.


Just my two centaurs worth... (oh, and since I was raised a pixie
earlier, I'll see your pixie and add two House Elves.)


Iggy McSnurd







From msbeadsley at yahoo.com  Tue Dec  2 21:33:25 2003
From: msbeadsley at yahoo.com (msbeadsley)
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 21:33:25 -0000
Subject: It's Simple, Really--Was Re: Plain English Awards - Rumsfeld Honoured
In-Reply-To: <000401c3b918$6a76f380$dd94aec7@Einstein>
Message-ID: <bqj0f5+ges2@eGroups.com>

Iggy said:
> Ummm...  Let me simplify it even further:
> There are things we know that we know.  (Like our name.)
> There are things we know we don't know.  (Like the exact 
> temperature of Pluto in Kelvin.)
> And there's stuff out there we're completely unaware of in any 
> manner. (I can't give an example here, because then I'd know that I 
> don't know it...)
> Even simpler... Yes?  *grin*

Oh, well done.

But there's a difference between stuff that not only isn't on our 
radar but is so far outside our experience that it will never concern 
us; then there's the stuff that is going to rear up and bite us that 
we don't even see an outline of before it's chomped our heads off. 
(With most stuff, we don't care. Determining the difference between 
them is part of what the Rumsfeld quote was about, IMO.)

Sandy




From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com  Tue Dec  2 21:42:03 2003
From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (IggyMcSnurd)
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 15:42:03 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] It's Simple, Really--Was Re: Plain English Awards - Rumsfeld Honoured
In-Reply-To: <bqj0f5+ges2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000201c3b91d$235885e0$6086aec7@Einstein>

> Sandy
>Oh, well done.

Iggy here:

Thanks.  *grin*

> Sandy
>
>But there's a difference between stuff that not only isn't on our 
>radar but is so far outside our experience that it will never concern 
>us; 

Iggy here:

Which is the stuff we don't know we don't know.


> Sandy
>then there's the stuff that is going to rear up and bite us that 
>we don't even see an outline of before it's chomped our heads off. 
>(With most stuff, we don't care. Determining the difference between 
>them is part of what the Rumsfeld quote was about, IMO.)
>

Iggy here:

And that's the stuff we know we don't know.  (Who is out to get the US,
and how do they plan to do it?  Is there any significance to the 15 Arab
Muslims suddenly deciding to learn to fly jet-liners all at once?  How
can we balance the budget to eliminate the deficit, and the National
Debt without destroying the economy or screwing the American public...)

Iggy McSnurd

 





From fc26det at aol.com  Tue Dec  2 23:14:46 2003
From: fc26det at aol.com (Potterfanme)
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 23:14:46 -0000
Subject: Plain English Awards - Rumsfeld Honoured
In-Reply-To: <000101c3b8e1$9f7ba9e0$1396aec7@Einstein>
Message-ID: <bqj6d6+ifme@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "IggyMcSnurd" 
<coyoteschild at p...> wrote:
> > June
> >
> >"Reports that say something hasn't happened are always interesting 
to 
> >me because, as we know, there are known knowns - there are things 
we 
> >know we know.? We also know there are known unknowns - that is to 
say 
> >we know there are some things we do not know.? But there are also 
> >unknown unknowns - the ones we don't know we don't know."
> >
> 
> 
> Iggy here:
> 
> How scared should I be by the fact that I understood that perfectly 
and
> wasn't confused by it at all?

Well, I am really scared because I thought I understood this right 
away but after reading the posts that followed I wonder.....I took 
the last "the ones we don't know we don't know" to mean that we are 
arrogant enought to think we *know* but truly don't have a clue.
Susan
> 
> Iggy McSnurd




From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Tue Dec  2 23:54:54 2003
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley)
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 23:54:54 -0000
Subject: Rumsfeld, Bush, and Prescott
Message-ID: <bqj8oe+u4af@eGroups.com>

walked into a bar one day and...

Actually, I think the Rumsfeld quote is quite interesting.  I 
haven't followed his activities closely, but as I understand it, 
while he may be a bete noire to Europeans and the left, the people 
he has really picked a fight with (Saddam might be surprised to 
learn this) are the US military.

This quote sounds like it might partly be about shaking up the 
mindset of the military.  Working out what you know and then 
determining how to find out the things you don't know is what 
intelligence (in the military sense) is all about.  And, in terms of 
doctrine, this is about having a plan, and then using your 
intelligence capability to fill in the blanks in your plan - 
Rumsfeld's 'known unknowns'.  IOW, spyplanes and the like don't fly 
around hoping to discover interesting things which then inform the 
strategic planning; they are sent out on specific missions to find 
out the things commanders need to know to execute their plan.

Rumsfeld may have been saying that, particularly in a world where 
enemies don't fight symmetrically (giant armies grinding each other 
down) it might be a good idea to think laterally and consider you 
may have information coming in which does more than fill in the 
blanks.  I think, intellectually, he's up to that.

Now, concerning Bush, I think that while it's possible to be very 
amusing at his expense, in fact his *meaning* is nearly always 
clear.  When he talks about 'misunderestimating' or 'Grecians' you 
know what he meant to say.  So I don't really think he's in the 
running for the Foot in Mouth awards as conceived, which are about 
cleaning up gobbledegook.

For sheer incomprehensibility, you do need John Prescott.  I can't 
cite examples, because they just aren't snappy and memorable - 
they're 'huh?' moments.

David, always happy to put in a good word for W.




From erinellii at yahoo.com  Tue Dec  2 23:58:21 2003
From: erinellii at yahoo.com (erinellii)
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 23:58:21 -0000
Subject: Religious Freedom...Was Re: Faith Education
In-Reply-To: <000301c3b917$b5773260$dd94aec7@Einstein>
Message-ID: <bqj8ut+iqa5@eGroups.com>


> Iggy here:
>   How I intended it to come across was:  I am the kind of person 
who,
> if an argument had started, would happily have been in the middle 
of it. My close friends know me well enough that, if they disapprove 
of my personal views and try to impose theirs on me, they'll have an 
argument on their hands.  (*chuckle* I can enjoy debates about 
religion, philosophy, and sexuality at the drop of a hat...)
> 
> If someone asks if I'll sign a petition I don't agree with, I'll 
flat out say "No."  If they ask why, I'll tell them.


Erin:
I think you've got me a little bit wrong here, Iggy.  I also like to 
debate.  Sometimes a little too much so.  Which was why I said I was 
glad that no one asked me anything else, because they would have 
gotten an earful, and I wasn't sure our friendships could have stood 
it.  My close friends I can discuss this stuff with.  But only 2 of 
the people I was there with were "good" friends, the other four were 
people I like and would like to continue being friends with, but 
don't know so well that I would feel comfortable debating in the 
middle of the mall without worrying about offending them.



Iggy: 
> And if someone looks at me like they're aghast that I'm not a real
> Christian, then they don't know me at all... and I would respond to
> their looks by either simply walking away (friends or not) or 
calling
> them on it.

Erin:
Well, I could have been misreading them, you know.  Lol, I'm not 
gonna go around saying "Ya got a problem with that?"  I think you 
mentioned "not borrowing trouble"?  Same principle.  There are some 
things I'll call people on no matter what (or should I say no matter 
who?).  Racist remarks or any jokes or comments that involve hurting 
animals are pretty much it.  Religion is not.

Erin
"All BB GUN, All The Time"








From erinellii at yahoo.com  Wed Dec  3 00:28:14 2003
From: erinellii at yahoo.com (erinellii)
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 00:28:14 -0000
Subject: Rumsfeld, Bush, and Prescott
In-Reply-To: <bqj8oe+u4af@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <bqjamu+bb5b@eGroups.com>

David:
> 
> Now, concerning Bush, I think that while it's possible to be very 
> amusing at his expense, in fact his *meaning* is nearly always 
> clear.  When he talks about 'misunderestimating' or 'Grecians' you 
> know what he meant to say.  So I don't really think he's in the 
> running for the Foot in Mouth awards as conceived, which are about 

> 
> David, always happy to put in a good word for W.


Erin:
I'm a Bush supporter also, but you have to admit he says some pretty 
funky stuff.  Here are a few choice quotes from the book "George W. 
Bushisms". Most are from back when he was running for presdent, and 
when I first bought the book I laughed until I cried on some of these 
quotes.  

"I will have a foreign-handed foreign policy."
Redwood, California, Sept 27, 2000

"I mean, there needs to be a wholesale effort against racial 
profiling, which is illiterate children."
Winston-Salem, North Carolina, Oct. 11, 2000

"It's important for us to explain to our nation that life is 
important.  It's not only life of babies, but it's life of children 
living in, you know, the dark dungeons of the Internet."
Arlington Heights, Illinios, October 24, 2000

"Will the highways on the Internet become more few?"
Concord, New Hampshire, Jan 29, 2000

"They want the federal government controlling Social Security like 
it's some kind of federal program."
St. Charles, Missouri, Nov. 2, 2000

"I know how hard it is for you to put food on your family."
Nashua, New Hampshire, January 27th, 2000



Erin again:
There are around two hundred of these babies in that book and its 
sequel. Hilarious. I highly reccomend it.

Erin
"All BB GUN, All The Time" 





From msbeadsley at yahoo.com  Wed Dec  3 00:29:37 2003
From: msbeadsley at yahoo.com (msbeadsley)
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 00:29:37 -0000
Subject: Religious Freedom...Was Re: Faith Education
In-Reply-To: <000001c3b91b$54321610$6086aec7@Einstein>
Message-ID: <bqjaph+98b5@eGroups.com>

> > Sandy
> >Iggy, did you mean to come across like, "Well, you know, if it had 
> >been *me*, I'd have gotten into it with them and stood up for my 
> >principles"?? (FYI: It's the impression I got.) I put back in what 
> >you snipped of Erin's post (and marked it with asterisks) because 
> >it's germane to what I want to say.
> 
> Iggy here:
> No.  How I intended it to come across was:  I am the kind of person 
> who, if an argument had started, would happily have been in the 
> middle of it. My close friends know me well enough that, if they 
> disapprove of my personal views and try to impose theirs on me, 
> they'll have an argument on their hands.  (*chuckle* I can enjoy 
> debates about religion, philosophy, and sexuality at the drop of a 
> hat...)

I used to debate more; lately (mellowing with age? :-O) I am more 
inclined to exchange ideas: less "debate" (which implies competition) 
than "share."

> If someone asks if I'll sign a petition I don't agree with, I'll 
> flat out say "No."  If they ask why, I'll tell them. And if someone 
> looks at me like they're aghast that I'm not a real Christian, then 
> they don't know me at all... and I would respond to their looks by 
> either simply walking away (friends or not) or calling
> them on it.
> 
> I'm not saying that she failed in defending her principles.  Had she
> signed a petition she didn't agree with, then she would have 
> failed.  I was simply stating that I tend to be (and happily, 
> sometimes) more willing to have a confrontation about these 
> things.  Personally, I *enjoy* shaking up people's views about 
> things sometimes and seeing if their eyes are really open to what's 
> going on.

*sly smile* You're no kind of Christian (real or not) and neither am 
I! And your friends certainly know this, and so this situation would 
no more come up with you than with me. (I have a brother who recently 
attended a Promise Keepers rally; we love each other dearly (and he 
knows very well not to start with me because he will not win, but 
mostly it's about respect. Anyway, for me it comes down to whether or 
not it works. Whatever your flavor. What really bothered me about the 
petition-signing scene was the lack of respect; but I think there are 
kinds and degrees of friendship, and all of them have worth. I also 
wonder if we can really put ourselves in those shoes anymore (since 
we have have climbed *very* obviously and deliberately out of the 
religious mainstream to stand (skyclad?) on the shore).

Hmmm...doesn't "...(s)eeing if their eyes are really open to what's 
going on" imply that there is some sort of absolute truth 
regarding "what's going on," and further, that you consider yourself 
in possession of it and capable of measuring their vision against 
yours and determining which is more valid? I'm not just <g> being 
confrontational here; I really want to know. Because I used to 
enjoy "shaking up people's views about things sometimes," too. I've 
stopped. Mostly (unless there are ramifications). I still exchange 
ideas; now I usually do it for the sake of finding out about 
the "other" rather than to see if they're (by my standards) awake and 
aware. I think I figured out that *my* motives were grubby: I was 
reacting out of impatience with people who refused (IMO) to think 
beyond the end of their noses as well as in some sense taking on 
responsibility for "awakening" others. (Until one day I heard this 
*voice* booming, "And just who do you think *you* are?")

> > Sandy
> >(So, 'scuse me, Iggy, but what happened to not backing down on 
> > things you believe in? Yes, I'm messing with you here a bit.)
 
> While I won't back down from a confrontation, I also won't seek one 
> out when it could make things difficult for the rest of my family.  
> If someone challenges me on something, then I'll back up what I >
> believe... and it's happened before.  But, at least until we have a 
> house of our own that we can't get kicked out of or have things 
> become difficult at for my beliefs, I'm not going to go "borrowing 
> trouble" as it were.
 
> Get the difference?

Yes, I think so. (Although I confess the term "situational ethics" 
did leap to mind. Not that there's anything wrong with *that*; 
personally, I think they're *all* situational. Honestly.)

> One of the problems I ran into on my last job was when I asked for 
> Oct 31 and Nov 1 off.  They asked me why I needed to get those days 
> off, and I told them that they are a "holiday of faith" for me.  
> The manager asked me about what faith I was, and I told her.  Like 
> many I've encountered, her first comment was "Oh, you're a Satan 
> worshipper."

When I get this "Satan worshipper" comment, I react, aghast, 
thus: "Oh, no, we pagans don't *believe in* Satan--he's a *Christian* 
deity!" (Granted, sometimes I'm a *bit* subtler, depending on whether 
or not that person signs my paycheck. Uh, situational ethics, anyone? 
Then again, I've often been lucky enough to be (or made myself) 
indispensible enough to have my religious and other foibles seen as 
ah, say, merely interesting aspects of my character.)

> Needless to say, I had to spend a good amount of time explaining 
> the error of that statement.  (She had never even heard of a Wiccan 
> or a Druid...)  For some reason, since then, I got some very odd 
> shifts, and had a decision made against me that got me fired in a 
> dispute with another employee... I was never able to charge them 
> with discrimination since it was "at will" employment.

Until 2+ years ago, I worked for the Colorado agency which enforces 
the State's civil rights statutes. Colorado is also an "at will" 
employment state; and I saw employers forced to change policies, 
educate their workforce, make apologies, and sometimes reinstate or 
otherwise financially compensate employees, including pagans, who 
carefully documented the instances of religious discrimination they 
experienced. (It's hard, and harder in "at will" states, but it can 
be done.) FYI: religious discrimination in housing (whether you are 
dealing with a landlord, management company, owner, condo or 
homeowners' association, seller, or mortgage lender (and I may have 
missed a few more)) is also illegal (at the Federal level; the agency 
I worked for had work-sharing agreements with EEOC and HUD). Again, 
it's hard to prove, but the law is there if you have the need and the 
fortitude. (On the other hand, as a fellow pagan reminded me once, it 
hasn't been *that* long since the burning years, and sometimes it's 
smarter to just cut your losses and trust to recursion. Uh, Karma.)

> On the good side, Karma hit them in the butt, since they got bought 
> out and shut down about a month later and without any warning.  
> Some of them went to work for the company that had originally owned 
> the other business, but about 3 months later, *that* company get 
> bought out, shut down, and all the original employees fired...  
> (Ain't Karma a **tch to mess with sometimes?  *grin*)

Oh, yes; the two worst superiors I've ever had (fifteen years and 
many miles apart) were each fired very abruptly (after they no longer 
had me at their mercy and I'd stopped feeling the pain).

> And another of my friends is an atheist who's into S&M...

He's not an artist whose initials are J.M., is he? ('Cos if so, we 
may have a mutual friend. One of the things I *love* about science 
fiction fandom is the eclectic mix of people; another of my fannish 
friends has been a Methodist minister in Nebraska for umpteen years 
now.)

> What's the real difference between a prayer and an incantation?
> Both are a series of words said with intent to enlist the aid of a 
> Power to help you achieve a desired result.

Beats me. Incantations are sexier; don't ask me why.

> What's the real difference between Ritual, and a religious Rite 
> such as Communion? Both involve the structured use of items, both 
> literal and symbolic, in a structured manner, and accompanied by 
> prayer/incantations with the intent to achieve a desired result 
> with the aid of a Power.

I think it's endorsement or lack of same by a widely recognized 
religious authority. (I'm a solitary practioner who's been 
asked, "How do you know if you're doing it right?" Well, ah, I 
*listen*, you see...and then there's the result, or lack of same...)

A very well-known and charismatic (in more ways than one) Chicago 
(SF) fan died several years ago after a brief (and losing) fight with 
cancer. (He wasn't a exactly a friend, but had been a houseguest and 
was someone I was very fond of having on the planet...to fight with  
if nothing else.) I prayed for him (but that's all, no hocus pocus) 
during his illness, only to find out (after he died) that he had 
*specifically* requested that only Christians make that effort. Oops. 
(I wish I could forward these questions to Ross; he'd have some 
definite answers for you!)

> What's the real difference between the Ten Commandments and the
> Threefold Law? With the exception of "Thou Shalt Have No God Before 
> Me," it all basically boils down to:  Be a good person and respect 
> others.

Uh, adultery? (No loophole for consenting adults in the Commandments.)
Some pagans I've known have had interesting concepts of "marriage," 
including how many people can go into one.) It seems to me that the 
main difference is in what the Threefold Law *doesn't* say, like 
specifically that "these ten things" in particular are verbotten. And 
the exception you cite is a BIG one, IIRC back over more than twenty 
years to my Christian days.

> Just my two centaurs worth... (oh, and since I was raised a pixie
> earlier, I'll see your pixie and add two House Elves.)

It wasn't me. I think it was June, who certainly can tap me for a 
couple of Thestrals and a Boggart if she needs a loan!

Sandy




From hp at plum.cream.org  Wed Dec  3 01:53:20 2003
From: hp at plum.cream.org (GulPlum)
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 01:53:20 +0000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] trip to London
In-Reply-To: <61E2AF8C78F2D211B0B70008C7F921D50DAF4D32@orion2.greenops.c
 om>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20031203005946.00980400@plum.cream.org>

This post managed to get lost in all the religion/politics discussions 
(there was a time when these topics were unwelcome on this list) :-) but 
here goes anyway...

At 14:30 02/12/03 , Nguyen, Marc wrote:

>I'm planning a trip to London December 27th - Jan 4th, and booked a couple
>of taxi journeys through www.lodonblack-cab.com. We are also booked at the
>Thistle Kensington Gardens Hotel.

I assume that was meant to be www.londonblack-cab.com ? :-)

>Has anyone used this taxi service or hotel before? This is our honeymoon, so
>I'm trying to make sure everything goes smoothly.

I've never used that cab service (nor do I know anyone who has), so I can't 
really comment on what you're going to get. I assume you've booked them to 
get you to and from the airport? That's perhaps not the wisest decision. 
The hotel is pretty handy for Paddington Station, and you'd get to and from 
Heathrow more quickly and cheaply (and perhaps even more comfortably) on 
the Heathrow Express (http://www.heathrowexpress.com). There are always 
loads of cabs at Paddington to get you to the hotel (in any case, without 
luggage, it's definitely walking distance!).

Whilst I've never stayed at that hotel, I know it reasonably well, and it's 
a very good choice! I used to walk past it very frequently and know people 
who've stayed there (though I note from the web that it's been recently 
refurbished and upgraded, so my experiences probably don't count for much). 
It's very convenient for all the sights and sounds of Central London, a 
stone's throw from Hyde Park (well, Kensington Gardens). :-)

If the weather's appropriate and you're up to it, a walk through the park 
towards the Royal Albert Hall and then Knightsbridge (half an hour to an 
hour) should certainly be on your list of things to do. There's an entrance 
to the Park directly opposite the hotel.

The one (potential) downside is your choice of dates. All the big London 
stores start their Christmas sales on the 27th, so you're likely to have to 
navigate through huge crowds to go anywhere. (On the other hand, if your 
new wife is into shopping, she's in for a great time!). ;-)

You asked about pubs and restaurants. I know that those types of businesses 
are generally very fickle, changing hands very frequently, so my 
experiences (up to 2 years ago) may not apply, but you don't need to go far 
for some excellent cuisine. Just go round the corner into Queensway, which 
has lots of decent Chinese, Indian and other eateries (bear in mind that 
Chinese or Indian food in Britain is very different to that in the USA or 
other countries - every "host" country adds its own "interpretation" and 
presentation). Just look for those places which are popular. If you carry 
on down Bayswater Road a little further, you'll get to Notting Hill Gate 
which has loads to offer in both restaurants and pubs (and of course, if 
you're familiar with the film of that name, see where it was made).

In any case, I suggest that as soon as you land, you acquire a copy of Time 
Out magazine (get ahead now by browsing through 
http://www.timeout.com/london/) which will give you loads of suggestions 
and ideas (including listing all the various special events for the New Year).

I hope that's of assistance, and perhaps someone else might have more to add.




From annemehr at yahoo.com  Wed Dec  3 05:24:32 2003
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr)
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 05:24:32 -0000
Subject: Religious Freedom...Was Re: Faith Education
In-Reply-To: <bqjaph+98b5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <bqjs2g+uf0l@eGroups.com>

Sandy wrote:
> When I get this "Satan worshipper" comment, I react, aghast, 
> thus: "Oh, no, we pagans don't *believe in* Satan--he's a *Christian* 
> deity!"

Annemehr:
Aw, don't stop there -- what happens next?  Do they gape at you for a
few seconds and then walk away muttering to themselves?  Do they argue
with you?  What?


Iggy:
> > Just my two centaurs worth... (oh, and since I was raised a pixie
> > earlier, I'll see your pixie and add two House Elves.)
> 
> It wasn't me. I think it was June, who certainly can tap me for a 
> couple of Thestrals and a Boggart if she needs a loan!
> 
> Sandy

It was me -- but as play goes around the table, you *all* have to
sweeten the pot!  But whatever happens, I'm not parting with my Niffler.

Annemehr
a Catholic Christian Bush supporter who loves to listen to Donald Rumsfeld




From msbeadsley at yahoo.com  Wed Dec  3 07:22:29 2003
From: msbeadsley at yahoo.com (msbeadsley)
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 07:22:29 -0000
Subject: Religious Freedom...Was Re: Faith Education
In-Reply-To: <bqjs2g+uf0l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <bqk2vl+i178@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" <annemehr at y...> 
wrote:
> Sandy wrote:
> > When I get this "Satan worshipper" comment, I react, aghast, 
> > thus: "Oh, no, we pagans don't *believe in* Satan--he's a 
*Christian* 
> > deity!"
> 
> Annemehr:
> Aw, don't stop there -- what happens next?  Do they gape at you for 
a
> few seconds and then walk away muttering to themselves?  Do they 
argue
> with you?  What?

Depends. Confusion first, followed (usually, sometimes only after 
further conversation) by comprehension, then anything from an earnest 
protest to a loud, spittle-laced rant that Satan is *not* a deity at 
all to very ugly, snarling obscenity to questions: "Are you serious? 
You/Pagans don't believe in the devil? Where do you/they think evil 
comes from, then?" Or "So, then, who/what *do* you worship?"

No one has ever laughed, though, or continued to express (to me, 
anyway) the belief that pagans worship Satan. (And I repress my 
impulse to mention, "Of course, there *is* the Horned Man..." (weg>)

Sandy, with apologies to anyone who is bothered by this thread




From pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no  Wed Dec  3 10:38:43 2003
From: pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no (pengolodh_sc)
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 10:38:43 -0000
Subject: It's Simple, Really--Was Re: Plain English Awards - Rumsfeld Honoured
In-Reply-To: <007501c3b95d$584bb700$a6706751@kathryn>
Message-ID: <bqkefj+jhpq@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter, "Kathryn Cawte" wrote:
> Well taking the September 11th example someone used earlier -
> before 9/11 (am I the only one who sees that and wonders what
> happened on the 9th of November?)[snip]

No.  I think USA is unique in using month/day/year-format for its 
dates instead of day/month/year.

Best regards
Christian Stub?




From pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no  Wed Dec  3 10:55:40 2003
From: pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no (pengolodh_sc)
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 10:55:40 -0000
Subject: Plain English Awards - Rumsfeld Honoured
In-Reply-To: <bqiu71+vh4q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <bqkffc+480g@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter, "junediamanti" wrote:
> June:
> 
> We should all be scared.  For my sins I regularly attend meetings.  
> Which means the bullshit quote can get very high.  
[snip]

A fellow HP-fan, A.J. Hall (who think does not lurks on this list, 
though I may be mistaken) refers to this sort of lingo as "pure, 
undiluted bolloxian" - she has a very entertaining take on it in a 
fic that is a crossover between LotR and a required office-course, at:
http://www.livejournal.com/users/ajhalluk/37513.html

Best regards
Christian Stub?




From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk  Wed Dec  3 13:33:12 2003
From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti)
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 13:33:12 -0000
Subject: Plain English Awards - Rumsfeld Honoured
In-Reply-To: <bqkffc+480g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <bqkomo+r39g@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "pengolodh_sc" 
<pengolodh_sc at y...> wrote:
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter, "junediamanti" wrote:
> > June:
> > 
> > We should all be scared.  For my sins I regularly attend 
meetings.  
> > Which means the bullshit quote can get very high.  
> [snip]
> 
> A fellow HP-fan, A.J. Hall (who think does not lurks on this list, 
> though I may be mistaken) refers to this sort of lingo as "pure, 
> undiluted bolloxian" - she has a very entertaining take on it in a 
> fic that is a crossover between LotR and a required office-course, 
at:
> http://www.livejournal.com/users/ajhalluk/37513.html
> 
> Best regards
> Christian Stub?

I think I may have attended this meeting last week.  Was it held in 
Newcastle, England?  I was there.  

AND I loved Sauron telling the Nazgul to "think out of the box".

June




From mphunt at sprintmail.com  Wed Dec  3 14:04:55 2003
From: mphunt at sprintmail.com (Tracy Hunt)
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 14:04:55 -0000
Subject: trip to London
In-Reply-To: <61E2AF8C78F2D211B0B70008C7F921D50DAF4D32@orion2.greenops.com>
Message-ID: <bqkqi7+k84h@eGroups.com>

<marc.nguyen at g...> wrote:
> hello all. I know I don't post much, but I do enjoy reading this 
list. I do
> have a question to all the Brits and Americans who have been in 
London
> though.
> 
> I'm planning a trip to London December 27th - Jan 4th, and booked a 
couple
> of taxi journeys through www.lodonblack-cab.com. We are also booked 
at the
> Thistle Kensington Gardens Hotel.
> 
> Has anyone used this taxi service or hotel before? This is our 
honeymoon, so
> I'm trying to make sure everything goes smoothly.
> 
> Also, if you really know London, can you recommend any restuarants 
or pubs?


Marc,
I haven't used the cabs much in London and don't know the hotel...so 
I'm not much help, am I?  Acutally, my husband and I went to London 
for 10 days in February of 2002 (without our children).  

I don't know how much you have to spend on your trip...we were on a 
tight budget as this was a 'last hurrah' before my husband went back 
to school full-time.  We cashed in frequent flyer miles for the 
airfare and hotel bonus points for 4 of the 9 nights free.  We also 
got a good map of the Underground and bought an unlimited, 1 week 
tube pass (we bought separate tickets for the remaining 2 days).  The 
Tube was a great, cheap way to get around.

Bring good walking shoes....we walked EVERYWHERE!!!  It was a great 
way to explore and find things that we might not have seen.  We saw a 
few plays and movies, we ate in pubs and markets, went to museums and 
other great landmarks.  We even took one of those 'coach tours' 
advetised in the hotel lobby.  It was a day trip to Stonehenge and 
Bath.  It was a wonderful time!  Some of the best pubs and shops were 
the ones we found down very small side streets by accident.

My husband is great with a map and neither of us is shy about asking 
for help/directions/recommendations/etc... so for us, it was a great 
way to go.  If you're a little adventurous and don't mind not having 
an itinerary planned - we found it a great city to just explore.  I 
can't wait to go back...and the next time, we won't do London...we'll 
do the countryside, Scotland, oh, I dunno...there's still soooooo 
much to see!

Have a wonderful trip--relax!

Tcy




From jmd at jvf.co.uk  Wed Dec  3 14:28:11 2003
From: jmd at jvf.co.uk (Jeremy Davis)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 14:28:11 -0000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: trip to London
References: <bqkqi7+k84h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <01ea01c3b9a9$adf56ce0$9d2dfea9@jmd2000>

Having grown up in london, I personally would say "Don't use the black cabs,
unless you've not got any other option.". If it's pouring with rain, then
fair enough, if you've got the money.

Other options ....

Easiest though less scenic - use the tube - underground train service.
Slighly more complex but more scenic - use the big red busses.

You an get a london travel card that allows you to use all "London Transport
Ltd (or Plc)" forms of transport. This means you can use a bus, and then hop
onto a tube train without paying any extra, and vice versa as many times as
you like.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tracy Hunt" <mphunt at sprintmail.com>
To: <HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 2:04 PM
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: trip to London


> <marc.nguyen at g...> wrote:
> > hello all. I know I don't post much, but I do enjoy reading this
> list. I do
> > have a question to all the Brits and Americans who have been in
> London
> > though.
> >
> > I'm planning a trip to London December 27th - Jan 4th, and booked a
> couple
> > of taxi journeys through www.lodonblack-cab.com. We are also booked
> at the
> > Thistle Kensington Gardens Hotel.
> >
> > Has anyone used this taxi service or hotel before? This is our
> honeymoon, so
> > I'm trying to make sure everything goes smoothly.
> >
> > Also, if you really know London, can you recommend any restuarants
> or pubs?
>
>
> Marc,
> I haven't used the cabs much in London and don't know the hotel...so
> I'm not much help, am I?  Acutally, my husband and I went to London
> for 10 days in February of 2002 (without our children).
>
> I don't know how much you have to spend on your trip...we were on a
> tight budget as this was a 'last hurrah' before my husband went back
> to school full-time.  We cashed in frequent flyer miles for the
> airfare and hotel bonus points for 4 of the 9 nights free.  We also
> got a good map of the Underground and bought an unlimited, 1 week
> tube pass (we bought separate tickets for the remaining 2 days).  The
> Tube was a great, cheap way to get around.
>
> Bring good walking shoes....we walked EVERYWHERE!!!  It was a great
> way to explore and find things that we might not have seen.  We saw a
> few plays and movies, we ate in pubs and markets, went to museums and
> other great landmarks.  We even took one of those 'coach tours'
> advetised in the hotel lobby.  It was a day trip to Stonehenge and
> Bath.  It was a wonderful time!  Some of the best pubs and shops were
> the ones we found down very small side streets by accident.
>
> My husband is great with a map and neither of us is shy about asking
> for help/directions/recommendations/etc... so for us, it was a great
> way to go.  If you're a little adventurous and don't mind not having
> an itinerary planned - we found it a great city to just explore.  I
> can't wait to go back...and the next time, we won't do London...we'll
> do the countryside, Scotland, oh, I dunno...there's still soooooo
> much to see!
>
> Have a wonderful trip--relax!
>
> Tcy
>
>
>
> ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________
>
> Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the group's Admin Files!
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/
>
> Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from
posts to which you're replying!
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>




From marc.nguyen at greenheck.com  Wed Dec  3 15:04:59 2003
From: marc.nguyen at greenheck.com (Nguyen, Marc)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 09:04:59 -0600 
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] trip to London
Message-ID: <61E2AF8C78F2D211B0B70008C7F921D50DAF4D43@orion2.greenops.com>

Message: 2
   Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 01:53:20 +0000
   From: GulPlum <hp at plum.cream.org>
Subject: Re: trip to London

At 14:30 02/12/03 , Nguyen, Marc wrote:

>I'm planning a trip to London December 27th - Jan 4th, and booked a couple
>of taxi journeys through www.lodonblack-cab.com. We are also booked at the
>Thistle Kensington Gardens Hotel.
>Has anyone used this taxi service or hotel before? This is our honeymoon,
so
>I'm trying to make sure everything goes smoothly.

GulPlum replied:

>I've never used that cab service (nor do I know anyone who has), so I can't

>really comment on what you're going to get. I assume you've booked them to 
>get you to and from the airport? That's perhaps not the wisest decision. 
>The hotel is pretty handy for Paddington Station, and you'd get to and from

>Heathrow more quickly and cheaply (and perhaps even more comfortably) on 
>the Heathrow Express (http://www.heathrowexpress.com). There are always 
>loads of cabs at Paddington to get you to the hotel (in any case, without 
>luggage, it's definitely walking distance!).

Marc's response:

Thanks for all who replied. The 2 times that I need a taxi will be at 5am to
get to Waterloo train station for a Eurostar trip to Paris, and at 4am to
get to Heathrow for a rental car pickup at 5am. We received private access
to Stonehenge, but have to be there at 8am. I looked at all my options, and
decided that at those hours in the morning, a cab was probably best. 

Will I still be ok taking the tube from the airport to Paddington station
with all my luggage? I didn't know if that would be a problem. We did order
the 7 day Visitor's Travelcard for zones 1 and 2. One last question, where
to you suggest I get UK currency? at airport ATM, or from my home bank
before leaving? the bank will charge me a flat rate of $15, but I don't know
what the ATM fees are over there per transaction.

I have tickets to Les Mis at the Palace, and the Cinderella ballet at the
Royal Opera House. We plan on seeing most of the city and plan on walking A
LOT!!! London is my wife's #1 city to visit on our worlwide list, so that's
the first one we're checking off. I do think we'll have to return sometime
in the summer season to see all the gardens though. 

My not so new wife (been married 2 years, finally able to take our
honeymoon, we wanted to buy a house first) does love shopping, and she
looking for to what the sales have to offer. :)

Thanks again everyone!



From jmd at jvf.co.uk  Wed Dec  3 15:19:16 2003
From: jmd at jvf.co.uk (Jeremy Davis)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 15:19:16 -0000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] trip to London
References: <61E2AF8C78F2D211B0B70008C7F921D50DAF4D43@orion2.greenops.com>
Message-ID: <024001c3b9b0$d0e30f30$9d2dfea9@jmd2000>

ATM fees for me when in America were about 1% - 2% with a possible minimum
charge of 1.20. I used a credit card most of the time though.

OK travelling at 5am would be difficult. some train stations open at about
4.30 but it all depends on the station. Suit cases on the tube are no worse
than in NY. Troublesome, but not impossible.

One thing I will warning you - The taxi to Heathrow will be expensive!!

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Nguyen, Marc" <marc.nguyen at greenheck.com>
To: <HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 3:04 PM
Subject: RE: [HPFGU-OTChatter] trip to London


> Message: 2
>    Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 01:53:20 +0000
>    From: GulPlum <hp at plum.cream.org>
> Subject: Re: trip to London
>
> At 14:30 02/12/03 , Nguyen, Marc wrote:
>
> >I'm planning a trip to London December 27th - Jan 4th, and booked a
couple
> >of taxi journeys through www.lodonblack-cab.com. We are also booked at
the
> >Thistle Kensington Gardens Hotel.
> >Has anyone used this taxi service or hotel before? This is our honeymoon,
> so
> >I'm trying to make sure everything goes smoothly.
>
> GulPlum replied:
>
> >I've never used that cab service (nor do I know anyone who has), so I
can't
>
> >really comment on what you're going to get. I assume you've booked them
to
> >get you to and from the airport? That's perhaps not the wisest decision.
> >The hotel is pretty handy for Paddington Station, and you'd get to and
from
>
> >Heathrow more quickly and cheaply (and perhaps even more comfortably) on
> >the Heathrow Express (http://www.heathrowexpress.com). There are always
> >loads of cabs at Paddington to get you to the hotel (in any case, without
> >luggage, it's definitely walking distance!).
>
> Marc's response:
>
> Thanks for all who replied. The 2 times that I need a taxi will be at 5am
to
> get to Waterloo train station for a Eurostar trip to Paris, and at 4am to
> get to Heathrow for a rental car pickup at 5am. We received private access
> to Stonehenge, but have to be there at 8am. I looked at all my options,
and
> decided that at those hours in the morning, a cab was probably best.
>
> Will I still be ok taking the tube from the airport to Paddington station
> with all my luggage? I didn't know if that would be a problem. We did
order
> the 7 day Visitor's Travelcard for zones 1 and 2. One last question, where
> to you suggest I get UK currency? at airport ATM, or from my home bank
> before leaving? the bank will charge me a flat rate of $15, but I don't
know
> what the ATM fees are over there per transaction.
>
> I have tickets to Les Mis at the Palace, and the Cinderella ballet at the
> Royal Opera House. We plan on seeing most of the city and plan on walking
A
> LOT!!! London is my wife's #1 city to visit on our worlwide list, so
that's
> the first one we're checking off. I do think we'll have to return sometime
> in the summer season to see all the gardens though.
>
> My not so new wife (been married 2 years, finally able to take our
> honeymoon, we wanted to buy a house first) does love shopping, and she
> looking for to what the sales have to offer. :)
>
> Thanks again everyone!
>
>
> ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________
>
> Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the group's Admin Files!
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/
>
> Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from
posts to which you're replying!
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>




From kcawte at ntlworld.com  Thu Dec  4 00:33:29 2003
From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 16:33:29 -0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] trip to London
References: <61E2AF8C78F2D211B0B70008C7F921D50DAF4D43@orion2.greenops.com>
Message-ID: <004f01c3b9fe$40820380$a6706751@kathryn>


> Marc's response:

> I have tickets to Les Mis at the Palace, and the Cinderella ballet at the
> Royal Opera House. We plan on seeing most of the city and plan on walking
A
> LOT!!! London is my wife's #1 city to visit on our worlwide list, so
that's
> the first one we're checking off. I do think we'll have to return sometime
> in the summer season to see all the gardens though.
>

K

Oh you lucky, lucky thing. I managed to get to see Les Mis once and it's
fantastic I am hoping to get into London over Xmas to go to the theatre but
I'm hoping to go and see Anthony Stewart Head playing Hook at the Savoy
(long live panto!)

Marc again
> My not so new wife (been married 2 years, finally able to take our
> honeymoon, we wanted to buy a house first) does love shopping, and she
> looking for to what the sales have to offer. :)
>

The problem with the London sales is they're more like a (not very well)
controlled riot than a shopping experience in some shops. I love shopping
and I love bargains but you wouldn't get me hitting the London sales if you
paid me.

*shudders*

K




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed Dec  3 18:12:02 2003
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 18:12:02 -0000
Subject: trip to London
In-Reply-To: <61E2AF8C78F2D211B0B70008C7F921D50DAF4D43@orion2.greenops.com>
Message-ID: <bql91i+f4kv@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Nguyen, Marc"  
One last question, where
> to you suggest I get UK currency? at airport ATM, or from my 
home bank before leaving? the bank will charge me a flat rate of 
$15, but I don't know what the ATM fees are over there per 
transaction.<

The real cost is usually in the exchange rate, not in the 
surcharge. At least with dollars, buying currency in the country of 
origin is always far more favorable. 

 I generally try to avoid cash and put as much as possible on my 
credit card since  the volume of transactions they do gets you a 
better exchange rate.  

My DH likes to pay cash, so he brings dollars with him and 
changes them at the desk in Heathrow, which avoids the 
transaction limits  and surcharges at ATM's. They also offer a 
buyback guarantee which protects you if the dollar takes a dive.

Pippin




From fakeplastikcynic at hotmail.com  Wed Dec  3 22:31:16 2003
From: fakeplastikcynic at hotmail.com (Martha)
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 22:31:16 -0000
Subject: And a trip to Edinburgh, too
In-Reply-To: <61E2AF8C78F2D211B0B70008C7F921D50DAF4D32@orion2.greenops.com>
Message-ID: <bqlo7k+cnv8@eGroups.com>

Hi everyone,

Inspired by Marc's request for information on London - and all the 
positive and helpful requests he got - I have a request of my own...

I'm going to Edinburgh in a couple of weeks, purely because I have 
never been. And it has just occured to me that I have no idea what is 
in Edinburgh or what there is to do. I looked at some of the official 
tourist board sites and so on, but they only seem to tell you where 
to buy antiques and aran sweaters. I'm intending to do some shopping 
and sightseeing and things - any ideas?

I would offer some suggestions about London in return, but (a) the 
tube scares me and (b) the information I have to offer involves where 
to buy rubber clothing and platform boots with fire on them.

~ Martha




From cubs9911 at aol.com  Wed Dec  3 22:47:02 2003
From: cubs9911 at aol.com (cubs99111)
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 22:47:02 -0000
Subject: Fan Fic Recommendation
Message-ID: <bqlp56+bhj1@eGroups.com>

Hi, 
I was wondering if anyone could recommend a good novel length fan fic 
preferably with H/G.  I have read After the End and The Psychic 
Serpeant Trilogy and they were so good, but I have been unable to 
find any others that have really good plots and are written so well.  
To specify I don't really need the fic to have a H/G pairing I just 
don't want one that has a H/Hr pairing because I really hate those 
two together.  So if anyone has any suggestions I'd be grateful.

Thanks
jr





From olivierfouquet2000 at yahoo.fr  Wed Dec  3 23:34:37 2003
From: olivierfouquet2000 at yahoo.fr (olivierfouquet2000)
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 23:34:37 -0000
Subject: Small things that make a nice day
Message-ID: <bqlrud+g5dn@eGroups.com>

Hi all,

I just wanted to share some of my good mood.

First, today is the day Harry Potter is coming out in french, so I mused in book stores 
just for the pleasure of seeing dozens of people (of all ages, which was a good news 
to me as HP is still very much associated with child literature here in France) taking up 
their copies, smiling blissfully at it. I also saw someone read the entire book right 
there in the book store. 

By the way, French OoP has a particularly nice cover, with an excellent painting of the 
trio : Hermione is a perfect mixture of cleverness and determination, Ron is nice and 
Harry is a real handsome young man (no surprise Cho likes him). I don't know who 
has done this, but I think he is french as I have never seen these pictures before 
anywhere. 

And I also saw Love Actually (yes, it is only going out now in France) and had some 
extra fun picturing Alan Rickman as Snape at the most awkward moments. Plus there 
was an unexpected reference to Harry.

Regards,

Olivier





From dradamsapple at yahoo.com  Thu Dec  4 00:14:27 2003
From: dradamsapple at yahoo.com (dradamsapple)
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 00:14:27 -0000
Subject: Response to 'Sibling Rivalry'
Message-ID: <bqlu93+6lse@eGroups.com>

Hey all!

Just a quick "Thank You"  to all who responded to my cries of woe
regarded my children, and siblings in general.

I was planning on responding to some specific points, but alas, the 
mighty migraine has taken over and I just can't do it now.  But there 
was some excellent advice given.   You all saved me a few hundred 
bucks in counseling!

Oh, and the lasagna and Tiramisu  is on it's way . . .


Anna . . .(who spent the money she saved at the mall today)




From neonsister at ameritech.net  Thu Dec  4 01:52:27 2003
From: neonsister at ameritech.net (Tracy)
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 01:52:27 -0000
Subject: And a trip to Edinburgh, too
In-Reply-To: <bqlo7k+cnv8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <bqm40r+r2nh@eGroups.com>

Martha, I visited Edinburgh in the early 1990's and had a great 
time.  I went on a ghost walk one night, but it's been so long I 
don't remember the name of the tour company that offered it.  I'm 
sure there are probably several that are satisfactory.  The ghost 
walk was just the right combination of supernatural tales, folklore, 
and history.  I learned quite a bit about the city.

Tracy




From boggles at earthlink.net  Thu Dec  4 01:57:49 2003
From: boggles at earthlink.net (Jennifer Boggess Ramon)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 19:57:49 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Plain English Awards - Rumsfeld Honoured
In-Reply-To: <000101c3b8e1$9f7ba9e0$1396aec7@Einstein>
References: <000101c3b8e1$9f7ba9e0$1396aec7@Einstein>
Message-ID: <p05200f00bbf4450a6662@[192.168.1.100]>

At 8:35 AM -0600 12/2/03, IggyMcSnurd wrote:
>
>Iggy here:
>
>How scared should I be by the fact that I understood that perfectly and
>wasn't confused by it at all?

Fnord.

-- 

  - Boggles, aka J. C. B. Ramon			boggles(at)earthlink.net
"It is not knowledge, but the act of learning, not possession but the 
act of getting there, which grants the greatest enjoyment. "
	- Gauss, in a Letter to Bolyai, 1808.



From boggles at earthlink.net  Thu Dec  4 02:16:55 2003
From: boggles at earthlink.net (Jennifer Boggess Ramon)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 20:16:55 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Christmas at Hogwarts (Was Re: Faith
 Education)
In-Reply-To: <000201c3b8e4$047b0050$1396aec7@Einstein>
References: <000201c3b8e4$047b0050$1396aec7@Einstein>
Message-ID: <p05200f01bbf448973b68@[192.168.1.100]>

At 8:53 AM -0600 12/2/03, IggyMcSnurd wrote:
>
>2: Christmas was "moved" to not only be closer to the Pagan celebration
>of the Solstice... but also closer to the celebration of one of the gods
>(I can't remember which one) that most of the Roman Empire's soldiers
>worshipped, that was traditionally near where Christmas is.  This was
>done to be able to bring the Christian religion into these areas without
>inspiring mass riots... especially by Rome's own army... and make it
>more palatable to those groups.

Both the native Roman traditional festival to Saturn, the Saturnalia, 
and one of the celebrations of Mithras, who was imported from Persia 
by the Roman army, are in the same general calendrical area.  Of 
course, Solstice was also a sacred day for the worshippers of Sol 
Invictus, who had also been imported from elsewhere (North Africa, I 
think) as well as Yule for the Germanii and the equivalent (minor) 
celebration among the Celtic Gauls.

Perhaps they figured one extra holiday thrown in there wouldn't 
attract any attention . . .  ;)

-- 

  - Boggles, aka J. C. B. Ramon			boggles(at)earthlink.net
"It is not knowledge, but the act of learning, not possession but the 
act of getting there, which grants the greatest enjoyment. "
	- Gauss, in a Letter to Bolyai, 1808.



From jeopardy18 at attbi.com  Thu Dec  4 03:47:38 2003
From: jeopardy18 at attbi.com (seanmulligan2000)
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 03:47:38 -0000
Subject: Fan Fic Recommendation
In-Reply-To: <bqlp56+bhj1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <bqmaoq+uo71@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "cubs99111" <cubs9911 at a...> 
wrote:
> Hi, 
> I was wondering if anyone could recommend a good novel length fan 
fic 
> preferably with H/G.  I have read After the End and The Psychic 
> Serpeant Trilogy and they were so good, but I have been unable to 
> find any others that have really good plots and are written so 
well.  
> To specify I don't really need the fic to have a H/G pairing I just 
> don't want one that has a H/Hr pairing because I really hate those 
> two together.  So if anyone has any suggestions I'd be grateful.
> 
> Thanks
> jr

There is the Slytherin Rising Saga by J.L. Matthews on Fanfiction.net 
and Fiction Alley and Summon the Lambs to Slaughter by La Guera also 
on Fanfiction.net and Fiction Alley.  




From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk  Thu Dec  4 08:32:37 2003
From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti)
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 08:32:37 -0000
Subject: And a trip to Edinburgh, too
In-Reply-To: <bqlo7k+cnv8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <bqmrf5+g9og@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Martha" 
<fakeplastikcynic at h...> wrote:
> Hi everyone,
> 
> Inspired by Marc's request for information on London - and all the 
> positive and helpful requests he got - I have a request of my own...
> 
> I'm going to Edinburgh in a couple of weeks, purely because I have 
> never been. And it has just occured to me that I have no idea what 
is 
> in Edinburgh or what there is to do. I looked at some of the 
official 
> tourist board sites and so on, but they only seem to tell you where 
> to buy antiques and aran sweaters. I'm intending to do some 
shopping 
> and sightseeing and things - any ideas?
> 
> I would offer some suggestions about London in return, but (a) the 
> tube scares me and (b) the information I have to offer involves 
where 
> to buy rubber clothing and platform boots with fire on them.
> 
> ~ Martha

Many years since I've been  - but plan to go again next year if only 
for the day.  (It's about 200 miles from where I live and two hours 
only on the train).  

Edinburgh Castle - fabulous history and a magnificent view.  

Princes Street

Greyfriars Cemetary - the statue of Greyfriars Bobby - should be info 
about this sweet little legend on the web.  

June




From hypercolor99 at hotmail.com  Thu Dec  4 12:57:05 2003
From: hypercolor99 at hotmail.com (alice_loves_cats)
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 12:57:05 -0000
Subject: Small things that make a nice day
In-Reply-To: <bqlrud+g5dn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <bqnav1+ugd7@eGroups.com>

Oh, this is almost exactly what I came online to say. 

Harry Potter 5 comes out in Hungary today at midnight, with the three 
biggest bookshops opening in Budapest, till 3 in the morning. You bet 
I'm gonna be there! :)

And I saw Love Actually this morning, and loved it. Loved it not only 
because of RickmanSnapeHarry. It was just so nice. Hugh Grant for 
prime minister! :)

Lots of love, Alice


--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "olivierfouquet2000" 
<olivierfouquet2000 at y...> wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> I just wanted to share some of my good mood.
> 
> First, today is the day Harry Potter is coming out in french, so I 
mused in book stores 
> just for the pleasure of seeing dozens of people (of all ages, 
which was a good news 
> to me as HP is still very much associated with child literature 
here in France) taking up 
> their copies, smiling blissfully at it. I also saw someone read the 
entire book right 
> there in the book store. 
> 
> By the way, French OoP has a particularly nice cover, with an 
excellent painting of the 
> trio : Hermione is a perfect mixture of cleverness and 
determination, Ron is nice and 
> Harry is a real handsome young man (no surprise Cho likes him). I 
don't know who 
> has done this, but I think he is french as I have never seen these 
pictures before 
> anywhere. 
> 
> And I also saw Love Actually (yes, it is only going out now in 
France) and had some 
> extra fun picturing Alan Rickman as Snape at the most awkward 
moments. Plus there 
> was an unexpected reference to Harry.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Olivier




From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com  Thu Dec  4 13:27:01 2003
From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent)
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 13:27:01 -0000
Subject: Fan Fic Recommendation
In-Reply-To: <bqlp56+bhj1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <bqncn5+didr@eGroups.com>

Go here:

http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Irina/

Start with "The Rebirth."  When Irina sent the first few chapters to 
Schnoogle, I coded them and couldn't resist plugging the fic on my 
group at the time.

You might also want to check out the H/G thread on the cruisin' 
forum at Fiction Alley Park:

http://www.fictionalley.org//fictionalleypark/forums/showthread.php?
s=&threadid=239

(Just ignore any links or references to Gryffindor Tower; that site 
went out of business recently.)

--Barb

http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb
http://www.groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent



--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "cubs99111" <cubs9911 at a...> 
wrote:
> Hi, 
> I was wondering if anyone could recommend a good novel length fan 
fic 
> preferably with H/G.  I have read After the End and The Psychic 
> Serpeant Trilogy and they were so good, but I have been unable to 
> find any others that have really good plots and are written so 
well.  
> To specify I don't really need the fic to have a H/G pairing I 
just 
> don't want one that has a H/Hr pairing because I really hate those 
> two together.  So if anyone has any suggestions I'd be grateful.
> 
> Thanks
> jr




From marshamoon at charter.net  Thu Dec  4 13:58:25 2003
From: marshamoon at charter.net (Marsha)
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 13:58:25 -0000
Subject: And a trip to Edinburgh, too
In-Reply-To: <bqlo7k+cnv8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <bqnei1+u929@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Martha" 
<fakeplastikcynic at h...> wrote:
"Hi everyone,

Inspired by Marc's request for information on London - and all the 
positive and helpful requests he got - I have a request of my own...

I'm going to Edinburgh in a couple of weeks......"

Martha--I spent two weeks in Edinburgh this summer and have been 
waiting for someone to ask just this question.  I went with a 
tour/business group during the Edinburgh Fringe Festival, so there 
there were things happening all day and night, but there will still 
be basics you won't want to miss. There are 3 Royal things to see: 
The Edinburgh Castle, which dominates the landscape and is where 
Mary, Queen of Scots, stayed.  This is on a chunk of volcanic rock 
in the middle of town, and at the high end of a street called "The 
Royal Mile"-at the other end of this street; near the ocean, is 
Hollyrood Palace, where the Queen Mum stays when she's in town.  The 
Royal Yacht also parks itself in Edinburgh, and although I did not 
tour that, I hear it is worth the visit. Near Edinburgh castle, on 
the Royal Mile,are tons of touristy places and cheap Aran sweaters, 
etc...expensive cashmeres, all things Scottish (nice flasks!)-
including the dungeon tours already mentioned.  There are also 
distillery tours, and one restaurant near the castle is called The 
Witchery.  This is supposed to be very famous.  We tried to get in, 
but couldn't without reservations, even for lunch; only succeeded in 
getting a picture of the place. Outside the castle is a site where 
they used to burn witches, that's close to the restaurant.  On this 
same street, be sure and visit a popular pub called Deacon Brodies.  
This pub is colorful, has great food, moderately priced, and Deacon 
Brodie was supposed to be the character on whom Jekyll/Hyde was 
based.  Crossing the Royal Mile is a street called Nicolson's; one 
of the main streets in town. About 5 blocks from the Royal Mile, on 
Nicolson, is a Chinese Buffet on the second floor, painted white, 
above a corner coffee shop called Black's Medicine and Tea Company-
this is the former Nicolson's cafe, where Rowling wrote Harry Potter 
and the Philosopher's Stone. I was so excited by this, I took 3 
pictures of this Chinese Restaurant. When you get to Edinburgh, 
you'll also see lots of brochures for day trips to other places, and 
we took several of these. E-mail me if you have any other questions-
I have all sorts of pictures, etc... It was fun. 




From cubs9911 at aol.com  Thu Dec  4 14:54:40 2003
From: cubs9911 at aol.com (cubs99111)
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 14:54:40 -0000
Subject: Fan Fic Recommendation
In-Reply-To: <bqncn5+didr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <bqnhrg+orou@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "psychic_serpent" 
<psychic_serpent at y...> wrote:
> Go here:
> 
> http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Irina/
> 
> Start with "The Rebirth."  When Irina sent the first few chapters 
to 
> Schnoogle, I coded them and couldn't resist plugging the fic on my 
> group at the time.
> 
> You might also want to check out the H/G thread on the cruisin' 
> forum at Fiction Alley Park:
> 
> http://www.fictionalley.org//fictionalleypark/forums/showthread.php?
> s=&threadid=239
> 
> (Just ignore any links or references to Gryffindor Tower; that site 
> went out of business recently.)
> 
> --Barb
> 
> http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb
> http://www.groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent

Thanks Barb, I'll check those out.  And let me just say that when I 
read After the End, I never thought I would read a better fan fic but 
then I stumbled across yours and it has been absolutely great.  I 
can't wait to see how it ends.

Thanks-JR





From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Thu Dec  4 17:11:09 2003
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley)
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 17:11:09 -0000
Subject: Magical announcement
Message-ID: <bqnprd+4j5h@eGroups.com>

Mr Ronald Rumgo, of the Ministry of Magic, today made the following 
announcement.

"The Gnome Office wishes to clarify the situation with regards to 
Gnome Registration.

We have known gnomes, who are gnomes we know we know.  We also know 
there are de-gnomed gnomes; that is to say there are some gnomes we 
know we no longer know.  But there are also unknown de-gnomed 
gnomes - the ones we don't know we de-gnomed, so we think they're 
known gnomes when in fact they're known no more.

We wish to make clear that all known gnome de-gnomers know de-
gnoming unknown de-gnomed gnomes is a no-no."




From s_ings at yahoo.com  Thu Dec  4 17:17:25 2003
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 12:17:25 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Happy Birthday, Maria! (Belated)
Message-ID: <20031204171725.70411.qmail@web41110.mail.yahoo.com>

*struggles into the room, towing the usual box of
decorations plus a suitcase or two, flinging confetti
haphazardly with the two free fingers she has*

Now, who snuck onto the birthday list while I was
away? Was that you, Maria? Yes, 'fess up, I see your
name there. :-)

Tuesday's birthday honouree was Maria Alena. Belated
birthday owls can be sent care of this list or
directly to: mariaalena at yandex.ru

I hope you day was filled with magic, fun and the
company of good friends.

Happy Birthday, Maria!

Sheryll the Birthday Elf

=====
http://www.livejournal.com/community/conventionalley/

______________________________________________________________________ 
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca



From joym999 at aol.com  Thu Dec  4 18:34:43 2003
From: joym999 at aol.com (joywitch_m_curmudgeon)
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 18:34:43 -0000
Subject: Christmas at Hogwarts (Was Re: Faith Education)
In-Reply-To: <018601c3b903$c57119b0$a6706751@kathryn>
Message-ID: <bqnuo3+9h6c@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Kathryn Cawte" <kcawte at n...> 
wrote:
> 
> Ms. Tattersall,
> >
> > What, then, of the students who might not be of either persuasion?
> > I'm not an HP scholar--don't really feel comfortable 
participating on
> > the main list--but JKR has obviously created a WW student 
population
> > that represents the diverse population of the RW. The two students
> > who come to mind are Parvati and Padma Patil, whom I would guess 
to
> > be Indian or Pakistani. How do they feel about the Christmas tree 
if
> > they come from, say, a Hindu culture?
> > >
> 
> Actually I was discussing this with some friends just recently - 
muslim, and
> sikh definitely, possibly hindu as well (can't quite remember who 
was
> there) - they were saying that while they don't celebrate the 
*religious*
> aspects of Christmas they do tend to celebrate it as a holiday with 
presents
> and stuff, or at least those with kids do - after all any excuse for
> presents and when all their school friends are celebratin they tend 
not to
> want to feel left out.

My family is Jewish, and we always celebrated both Christmas and 
Hanukkah.  No one in my family is religious, so we tended to ignore 
the religious aspects of pretty much all holidays, but we always lit 
the menorah and recited the appropriate prayer, and also had a little 
plastic Christmas tree and put presents under it.  Presents from 
grandparents and other friends and relatives were, somewhat 
arbitrarily called either Christmas or Hanukkah presents, and usually 
covered with wrapping paper obviously chosen not for the 
appropriateness of its theme but for its (low) price.

We also celebrated both Easter and Passover, as well as the Jewish 
High Holy days of Yom Kippur and Rosh Hashonah.  The way we 
celebrated all those holidays was pretty much the same -- the family 
got together and ate lots of food, and the kids got some presents.  
My grandmother loved to send cards, so I got cards for all those 
holidays, as well as Halloween, Valentines Day, and whatever other 
holidays Grandma happened to have the appropriate card for.

Kind of the best of both worlds, I always thought.

--Joywitch




From joym999 at aol.com  Thu Dec  4 18:44:26 2003
From: joym999 at aol.com (joywitch_m_curmudgeon)
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 18:44:26 -0000
Subject: Plain English Awards - Rumsfeld Honoured
In-Reply-To: <bqiu71+vh4q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <bqnvaa+imsr@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "junediamanti" 
<june.diamanti at b...> wrote:

> Think outside the box - THIS RENDERS THE SPEAKER LIABLE TO A SMACK 
> IN THE TEETH FROM ME!

I saw a funny cartoon recently, I think in The New Yorker magazine.  
There was a small cat sitting in its litterbox, and a human standing 
next to it looking at the cat saying "Don't think outside the box."

--Joywitch




From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk  Thu Dec  4 20:06:42 2003
From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti)
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 20:06:42 -0000
Subject: Magical announcement
In-Reply-To: <bqnprd+4j5h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <bqo44i+pj52@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "davewitley" 
<dfrankiswork at n...> wrote:
> Mr Ronald Rumgo, of the Ministry of Magic, today made the 
following 
> announcement.
> 
> "The Gnome Office wishes to clarify the situation with regards to 
> Gnome Registration.
> 
> We have known gnomes, who are gnomes we know we know.  We also 
know 
> there are de-gnomed gnomes; that is to say there are some gnomes 
we 
> know we no longer know.  But there are also unknown de-gnomed 
> gnomes - the ones we don't know we de-gnomed, so we think they're 
> known gnomes when in fact they're known no more.
> 
> We wish to make clear that all known gnome de-gnomers know de-
> gnoming unknown de-gnomed gnomes is a no-no."

RAOFLMAO.

I hereby nominate you for the Order of Merlin (First Class) 

and I hope that is unanimous.

June

And aint you got no gnome to go to?






From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk  Thu Dec  4 20:10:36 2003
From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti)
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 20:10:36 -0000
Subject: Plain English Awards - Rumsfeld Honoured
In-Reply-To: <bqnvaa+imsr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <bqo4bs+4j3q@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "joywitch_m_curmudgeon" 
<joym999 at a...> wrote:
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "junediamanti" 
> <june.diamanti at b...> wrote:
> 
> > Think outside the box - THIS RENDERS THE SPEAKER LIABLE TO A 
SMACK 
> > IN THE TEETH FROM ME!
> 
> I saw a funny cartoon recently, I think in The New Yorker 
magazine.  
> There was a small cat sitting in its litterbox, and a human 
standing 
> next to it looking at the cat saying "Don't think outside the box."
> 
> --Joywitch

I was at a meeting this afternoon - one of those sort and I present 
for the board's inspection the following sightings:

Good collaborative partner working

Win-win - yes really someone said it!

I myself offered to "extrapolate some figures into year round 
projections" - mind you, in mitigation - I was having a laugh.

Oh, and I had a chance to say "let's think outside the box" but knew 
I wouldn't be able to keep a straight face.

I heard the word "strategic" five times, once said by me (hangs head 
in shame) but I think you can only count each word once.

June




From cwood at tattersallpub.com  Fri Dec  5 02:13:40 2003
From: cwood at tattersallpub.com (mstattersall)
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 02:13:40 -0000
Subject: Magical announcement
In-Reply-To: <bqo44i+pj52@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <bqopkk+2ot9@eGroups.com>

>June said (in reference to the appended bit of odd brilliance): 
> I hereby nominate you for the Order of Merlin (First Class) 
> and I hope that is unanimous.

Gnome matter what anyone else says, I second the motion and I *am*
unanimous in that.
Ms. Tattersall,
doing a convincing Mrs. Slocombe

> > Mr Ronald Rumgo, of the Ministry of Magic, today made the 
> following 
> > announcement.
> > 
> > "The Gnome Office wishes to clarify the situation with regards to 
> > Gnome Registration.
> > 
> > We have known gnomes, who are gnomes we know we know.  We also 
> know 
> > there are de-gnomed gnomes; that is to say there are some gnomes 
> we 
> > know we no longer know.  But there are also unknown de-gnomed 
> > gnomes - the ones we don't know we de-gnomed, so we think they're 
> > known gnomes when in fact they're known no more.
> > 
> > We wish to make clear that all known gnome de-gnomers know de-
> > gnoming unknown de-gnomed gnomes is a no-no."
> 
> RAOFLMAO.
> 
> 
> And aint you got no gnome to go to?




From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com  Fri Dec  5 02:50:13 2003
From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (M.Clifford)
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 02:50:13 -0000
Subject: Is It Just Me . . .
In-Reply-To: <bhmk4u+pkm5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <bqorp5+b9h4@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Cindy C." 
<cindysphynx at c...> wrote:
> . . . or is the main list still crazy busy?
<snip>
> Anything I might wish to say has probably already been said.  If I 
do wade in, I can't keep up with the thread I posted on, let alone 
other interesting threads.  It's an *avalanche* of discussion!  I 
can't keep up!!!
> 
> Er, is anyone else experiencing the same thing?  Or is it just me?
> 
> Cindy 

Valky:
I couldn't agree more. When I check my inbox the list of digests is 
just beyond comprehension. Ever since OoP I cannot find the time for 
it all. It has really gotten tremendous. Perhaps we should 
categorise into topical sectors or character lists for often 
discussed characters like Snape and DD. Or even into topics such as 
prophecy, angramming, etc.
Anything to help sort the pile because its not possible to eyescan 
with this many posts or scroll through the digest that has so many 
loooooong posts in it to get to number 22 and back to the index.

I still love this list but I feel alone in such a big crowd. It's 
not just you Cindysphinx.





From dradamsapple at yahoo.com  Fri Dec  5 05:18:30 2003
From: dradamsapple at yahoo.com (dradamsapple)
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 05:18:30 -0000
Subject: OTP
Message-ID: <bqp4f6+l047@eGroups.com>

***Anna creeps down the staircasse to see if anyone is
still in the common room.  Under her invisibility cloak,
she quietly pads her way to the bulletin board, where she leaves the
following anonymous note:

   "What exactly does OTP  mean, in talking about a ship?"

***As quickly and quietly as she entered, she leaves, in hopes that
no one will see her leave such a note, as it is rather embarrassing 
to be part of this group and  not know the answer!!!***


And now, back to your normal programming . . .

Anna . . .




From drednort at alphalink.com.au  Fri Dec  5 05:26:49 2003
From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately)
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 16:26:49 +1100
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] OTP
In-Reply-To: <bqp4f6+l047@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3FD0B1C9.31891.51E6B5@localhost>

On 5 Dec 2003 at 5:18, dradamsapple wrote:

>    "What exactly does OTP  mean, in talking about a ship?"

One True Pairing.


Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought
Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html
(ISTJ)       | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 
"You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one
thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the 
facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be 
uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that 
need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil
Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia




From dradamsapple at yahoo.com  Fri Dec  5 05:44:08 2003
From: dradamsapple at yahoo.com (dradamsapple)
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 05:44:08 -0000
Subject: OTP
In-Reply-To: <3FD0B1C9.31891.51E6B5@localhost>
Message-ID: <bqp5v8+qke4@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Shaun Hately" 
<drednort at a...> wrote:
> On 5 Dec 2003 at 5:18, dradamsapple wrote:
> 
> >    "What exactly does OTP  mean, in talking about a ship?"
> 
> One True Pairing.
> 
> 
> Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought
> Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html
> 

"Aaahhh," 

 ***Anna takes off her invisibility cloak and breathes freely now***

Thanks, Shaun!  Now I  can go to sleep knowing something I didn't  a 
minute ago!!  :)

Anna . . .






From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Fri Dec  5 16:12:19 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 16:12:19 -0000
Subject: Real Magic on the Movie Set.
Message-ID: <bqqap3+gdbq@eGroups.com>

If you read the-Leaky-Cauldron.org then you already know this, but I
found it very interesting that the Prisoner of Azkaban is the first HP
movie to hire a real magician as a consultant for the movie.

See - Leaky Cauldron Dec 4, 2003
http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/

"He has taught Magic to several members of the cast including Daniel
Radcliffe & Emma Watson (Hermione and Harry), as well as holding the
first ever on-set Magic class!"

See also - Paul Kieve - World Famous Magician -
http://www.stageillusion.com/home.html#

That gives me a very good feeling about the movie. If Alfonso Cuaron
is sufficient concerned about the realism of the magic to hire one of
the best magicians in Europe, then he must be taking the creation of
this movie very seriously.

I am very much looking forward to Prisoner of Azkaban, I think Cuaron
will being a new and more positive artistic vision to the movies. 

But I confess that I am very worrried about Goblet of Fire. I really
don't  think Warner Brothers has a very good handle on just how much
they can compromise these movies and get away with it. 

When it comes to the larger books, I think they need people with
serious uncompromising artistic vision in charge. Look at how
wonderfully the production of Lord of the Rings has been done.
Certainly, is someone like that was at the helm of the HP movies, we
would have movies of enduring historical president; movies that would
endure for all time, just as the LotR movies surely will.

Just a thought.

bboy_mn





From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Fri Dec  5 16:38:53 2003
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley)
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 16:38:53 -0000
Subject: Real Magic on the Movie Set.
In-Reply-To: <bqqap3+gdbq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <bqqcat+7f1q@eGroups.com>

Steve wrote:

> That gives me a very good feeling about the movie. If Alfonso Cuaron
> is sufficient concerned about the realism of the magic to hire one 
of
> the best magicians in Europe, then he must be taking the creation of
> this movie very seriously.

I don't understand.

What is the relationship between realistic depiction of JKR's magic, 
and the use of stage illusionists?  I doubt Paul Kieve can produce a 
corporeal Patronus, or advise on the realism of a Dementor.  I bet he 
doesn't even follow a Quidditch team regularly.

We may end up with scenes that go something like:

Scene: The students are filing into Snape's dungeon, ignoring the 
cries of Eloise Midgen, who is being sawn in half by Peeves.

Snape: Now, to make this Vanishing Solution, I require a member of 
the audi... class to lend me a gold watch.  Not you, Longbottom, 
after your 5 Galleon coin last week.

Hermione (raising hand, card showing Ace of Spades on one side and 
Two of Clubs on the other dropping out of her sleeve): Professor, 
Professor!

Snape: Yes, Granger, what is it?  Are you volunteering to be my 
beautiful assistant?

Hermione: No, Professor, I just wanted to say that I can see you have 
a second cauldron painted matt black in front of that black screen.  
Is that how you're going to do it?

*shudder*

David




From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com  Fri Dec  5 17:00:58 2003
From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (IggyMcSnurd)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 11:00:58 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Real Magic on the Movie Set.
In-Reply-To: <bqqcat+7f1q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000001c3bb51$5fecb7c0$f397aec7@Einstein>

Iggy here:
 
Well, coming from someone who used to hang out at a magic shop ay least
3 days a week after school for 3 years, has been friends with a few
professional magicians, is a big fan of illusionists, and was actually
asked by David Copperfield's road manager to apply for a job as one of
his stage assistants, I think that a trained illusionist as a consultant
would be a very useful thing.
 
For one, having someone skilled in the arts of stage magic will allow
more magical effects to be done realistically in the scenes themselves
and without as much need for CGI and animatronics.  A very skilled
illusionist can set up situations also in a way that, since it's
actually done then and there, the reactions from the actors will be much
more real.  
 
Also, when you consider that JKR likes to add in a lot of red herrings,
and illusionists are trained to be masters of deception, I think that
the traits would compliment each other quite nicely.  They understand
the arts of misdirection, concealment, and human perception as well as
(if not better than) any con man or detective out there.  In a world
where hiding the truth in plain sight, and veiling clues with smoke and
mirrors, as JKR likes to do, a stage magician is an invaluable asset.
 
 
Just my two centaurs worth.
 
Iggy McSnurd
 
 
 
Dave:

I don't understand.

What is the relationship between realistic depiction of JKR's magic, 
and the use of stage illusionists?  I doubt Paul Kieve can produce a 
corporeal Patronus, or advise on the realism of a Dementor.  I bet he 
doesn't even follow a Quidditch team regularly.

 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk  Fri Dec  5 21:22:56 2003
From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti)
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 21:22:56 -0000
Subject: Got my ticket!
Message-ID: <bqqsvg+c1d8@eGroups.com>

Boy this list is quiet -except for saddos like me.

Just posting the jubilant news, after 4 attempts, I finally got my 
Return of the King ticket for 17 December 11.45 GMT.

In total raptures and counting the days.

June




From shirley2allie at hotmail.com  Fri Dec  5 21:25:31 2003
From: shirley2allie at hotmail.com (Shirley)
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 21:25:31 -0000
Subject: Magical announcement
In-Reply-To: <bqo44i+pj52@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <bqqt4b+ebe8@eGroups.com>

davewitley wrote:
> > Mr Ronald Rumgo, of the Ministry of Magic, today made the 
> following 
> > announcement.
> > 
> > "The Gnome Office wishes to clarify the situation with regards to 
> > Gnome Registration.
> > 
> > We have known gnomes, who are gnomes we know we know.  We also 
> know 
> > there are de-gnomed gnomes; that is to say there are some gnomes 
> we 
> > know we no longer know.  But there are also unknown de-gnomed 
> > gnomes - the ones we don't know we de-gnomed, so we think they're 
> > known gnomes when in fact they're known no more.
> > 
> > We wish to make clear that all known gnome de-gnomers know de-
> > gnoming unknown de-gnomed gnomes is a no-no."

June:
> RAOFLMAO.
> 
> I hereby nominate you for the Order of Merlin (First Class) 
> 
> and I hope that is unanimous.
> 
> June
> 
> And aint you got no gnome to go to?

Shirley:
DITTO!  and I'll third the nomination....  (Order of Mirth, maybe, 
too?)

Shirley, realizing, too late (once again), that I should *not* read 
these at work....




From fakeplastikcynic at hotmail.com  Fri Dec  5 21:26:22 2003
From: fakeplastikcynic at hotmail.com (Martha)
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 21:26:22 -0000
Subject: Edinburgh/advent
In-Reply-To: <bqnei1+u929@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <bqqt5u+tum7@eGroups.com>

Just to say - thank you so much to those who offered tips on what to 
do in Edinburgh. The place where they used to burn witches sounds 
particularly cool and, being as I am a sad and pathetic fangirl, I 
will be taking plenty of photos of the Chinese restaurant that used 
to be a teashop. ;-) And I won't miss the castle - it sounds good 
(and castles are just cool anyway).

Today while standing at the train station I realised that I 
completely forgot about advent this year. Every year of my life up 
until now I've had an advent calendar either from my parents or from 
my boyfriend, and this year it just passed me by. I am most 
dissatisfied. Hmmph.

~ Martha, who has just been diagnosed as asthmatic and discovered 
that inhalers taste like vodka




From tammy at mauswerks.net  Fri Dec  5 21:56:09 2003
From: tammy at mauswerks.net (Tammy Rizzo)
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 16:56:09 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Got my ticket!
In-Reply-To: <bqqsvg+c1d8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3FD0B8A9.4704.63448F@localhost>

On 5 Dec 2003 at 21:22, junediamanti wrote:

> Boy this list is quiet -except for saddos like me.
> 
> Just posting the jubilant news, after 4 attempts, I finally got my
> Return of the King ticket for 17 December 11.45 GMT.
> 
> In total raptures and counting the days.
> 
> June

WOOHOOO!!  My LOTR partner, DonnaLee, has our tickets already.  Well, sorta.  
She's got her Fandango confirmation number, which means they're bought and paid 
for (for 11:45am, first showing, yeah!), but she still has to actually pick them up.  
But they're bought and paid for.  Yaaaaay!

***
Tammy
tammy at mauswerks.net





From illyana at mindspring.com  Fri Dec  5 22:38:49 2003
From: illyana at mindspring.com (illyana delorean)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 15:38:49 -0700
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Got my ticket!
In-Reply-To: <bqqsvg+c1d8@eGroups.com>
References: <bqqsvg+c1d8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <CB744722-2773-11D8-A796-003065B8B954@mindspring.com>

June wrote:

> Boy this list is quiet -except for saddos like me.
>
> Just posting the jubilant news, after 4 attempts, I finally got my
> Return of the King ticket for 17 December 11.45 GMT.
>
> In total raptures and counting the days.

Now Illyana:

Not that I am bragging or anything, but I get to see Return of the King 
a week from today! I "earned" tickets at my work (Barnes & Noble) by 
selling B&N memberships and get to go to an advance screening!

Is anyone else going to an advance screening?

illyana

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From msbeadsley at yahoo.com  Sat Dec  6 00:11:57 2003
From: msbeadsley at yahoo.com (msbeadsley)
Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 00:11:57 -0000
Subject: Real Magic on the Movie Set.
In-Reply-To: <bqqcat+7f1q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <bqr6sd+r0fi@eGroups.com>

Dave W:
> What is the relationship between realistic depiction of JKR's 
> magic, and the use of stage illusionists?  I doubt Paul Kieve can 
> produce a corporeal Patronus, or advise on the realism of a 
> Dementor.  I bet he doesn't even follow a Quidditch team regularly.

I agree. JKR writes about *magic*--IMO, all a (RL) "magician" can 
have to offer is advice on how to perform sleight-of-hand and make 
elephants seem to vanish: illusions. I shall regard him as a sort of 
special effects consultant/acting coach; the notion that he is there 
to teach anyone "magic" isn't palatable at all, at all.

Sandy




From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Dec  6 06:15:05 2003
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 06:15:05 -0000
Subject: Prayer and Incantation (was: Religious Freedom...Was Re: Faith Education
In-Reply-To: <000301c3b917$b5773260$dd94aec7@Einstein>
Message-ID: <bqrs59+j8f6@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "IggyMcSnurd"
<coyoteschild at p...> wrote:
>
> What's the real difference between a prayer and an incantation?
> Both are a series of words said with intent to enlist the aid of a 
> Power to help you achieve a desired result.

Prayer isn't just asking God(s) for stuff (the type called petitionary
prayer). There are also prayers of praise, prayers of thanksgiving,
prayers of repentance, prayers of just talking things over with God(s)
... and my experience is that many NeoPagan Wiccans (maybe not the
ones who believe that the God(s) are only symbols) pray all those
kinds of prayers.

Incantation ... actually, that's word I mostly associate with the
Potterverse. Do you mean 'spells', also known as Magickal 'work' or
'doing magic'?  If so, surely using words is the least of it (magick
can be done with no words at all) -- surely the most important part is
the intention and the raising, focussing, and sending of 'energy'? To
me, it is much different than petitionary prayer, in the same way that
 for me to go to the kitchen to fix a cup of tea is different than me
calling out to Tim: "please, dear sweet Tim, can you be a darling and
get me a cup of tea?"

> What's the real difference between Ritual, and a religious Rite
> such as Communion?
> Both involve the structured use of items, both literal and symbolic,
> in a structured manner, and accompanied by prayer/incantations with 
> the intent to achieve a desired result with the aid of a Power.

If it's liturgical, it's Ritual, regardless whether Pagan, Christian,
or anything else (e.g. secular). By 'if it's liturgical', I mean if it
has a script (whether written or memorized) which is always followed
the same every time the ritual is done ... a lot of the formality in
secular government courtrooms fits that category. Maybe we can argue
about whether the secular rituals intend to be aided by a Power. 

(If we wrote a brand-new script that this is the first time it's used,
or we just improvised, then why do we call it a Ritual?)

Btw do you intend to imply that some Christians *deny* that a prayer
they always say the same way or a part of their worship service that
is always the same (or their Communion) is a 'ritual'? 




From marshamoon at charter.net  Sat Dec  6 07:01:27 2003
From: marshamoon at charter.net (Marsha)
Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 07:01:27 -0000
Subject: Edinburgh/advent
In-Reply-To: <bqqt5u+tum7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <bqrus7+h19q@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Martha" 
fakeplastikcynic at h...> wrote:
"Just to say - thank you so much to those who offered tips on what 
to 
do in Edinburgh. The place where they used to burn witches sounds 
particularly cool and, being as I am a sad and pathetic fangirl, I 
will be taking plenty of photos of the Chinese restaurant that used 
to be a teashop."

Martha-just thought of a couple of other things outside of Edinburgh-
just south of town if you look them up on the internet. One of them, 
if you're interested in buying crystal or dishes, is the Edinburgh 
Crystal factory.  The other is Rosslyn Chapel, which supposedly 
houses the Holy Grail, and is one of the most interesting historical 
churches this art major has ever seen in her life. Amazing place, 
and there are many books about it. It's within 10-20 miles of 
Edinburgh. A best selling book in the states now is The DaVinci 
Code, and there's a whole chapter on the Rosslyn Chapel in there. 
Weird place. The link is:

http://www.rosslynchapel.org.uk/

If I can figure out how to put up pictures of JKR's former 
Nicolson's/now Chinese Buffet so that you can recognize it when you 
see it, I will. The witch burning site is a brass plate on a wall 
outside the esplanade of the castle with snakes and faces on it with 
a narrative about witch burning.




From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Sat Dec  6 09:18:59 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 09:18:59 -0000
Subject: Real Magic on the Movie Set.
In-Reply-To: <bqr6sd+r0fi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <bqs6u3+gab1@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "msbeadsley" <msbeadsley at y...>
wrote:

Sandy responding to Dave:
> 
> I agree. JKR writes about *magic*--IMO, all a (RL) "magician" can 
> have to offer is advice on how to perform sleight-of-hand and make 
> elephants seem to vanish: illusions. 
>
> I shall regard him as a sort of special effects consultant/acting 
> coach; the notion that he is there to teach anyone "magic" isn't 
> palatable at all, at all.
> 
> Sandy

bboy_mn:

A great modern day magician once said, that magic is a trick when the
audience believes it; but it's true magic when the magcian believes it.

A professional magician brings 'stagecraft' to the equation. He brings
 the skills to make the unbelievable believable, and to make the
impossible possible. 

Professional magicians are more that people who get on stage and do
magic tricks. If you have even see a bad magician, he gives himself
away every time he tries to perform a trick, he is limited by his own
definition of himself. Just as bad actor gives himself away on stage
because he is acting the part instead of living it.

Magicians live the magic, they are steeped not only in the deception
and illusion but in the history, tradition, and craft of magic. They
certainly being far more to the equation than a bag of tricks.

Also, I think the reference to teaching a 'magic class' on the set was
more of a casual situation than an actual required part of the movie.
Although, I have no trouble at all see a magic class as being
beneficial to the actors. Primarily, I think you have a world famous
magician and a pack of curious inteligent fun loving kids.

Plus, if the kids are planning to make 'entertainment' a significant
part of their future lives, then the stagecarft of magic would be very
very beneficial. As a point of trivia, Jason Isaacs is a talented
'close-up' magician.

Another point of trivia, there are about 130 magical societies in
Britian, one of which (Magic Circle-Euston; est. 1905) Prince Charles
belongs to.

http://www.ukmagic.net/clubs.htm

http://www.themagiccircle.co.uk/photo01.shtml


In the cudest sense, the art of magic is the art of making 'tricks'
look real, and realism in a movie is always good.

Just a thought.

bboy_mn





From dradamsapple at yahoo.com  Sun Dec  7 01:17:29 2003
From: dradamsapple at yahoo.com (dradamsapple)
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 01:17:29 -0000
Subject: June, 1963
Message-ID: <bqtv39+iktk@eGroups.com>

An interesting piece of trivia  . . .

I was watching E! today and they had a bio of Johnny Depp.
He was born June 9, 1963.

Later, I was reading the interview with Jason Isaacs (see 
http://www.mugglenet.com).  He's promoting 'Peter Pan'.
He was born June 6, 1963.

Two fantastic actors (and not bad to look at) born THREE days apart???
Wow!  
What was in the stars the previous October??  :P

Anna . . .(who was born excactly three years to the day before 
Johnny! >squee!< we share a b-day!)




From heidilist at tandys.org  Sun Dec  7 01:27:17 2003
From: heidilist at tandys.org (Heidi Tandy)
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 17:27:17 -0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] June, 1963
In-Reply-To: <bqtv39+iktk@eGroups.com>
References: <bqtv39+iktk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <1070760447.C5D8EC7@w37.dngr.org>


On Sat, 6 Dec 2003 8:22pm, dradamsapple wrote:

> Two fantastic actors (and not bad to look at) born THREE days apart???
> Wow!
> What was in the stars the previous October??

August/September. If you're born the first week of June, and you're 
term, you were conceieved in late August or early September.


Heidi, who delivered june 2, 2003, and thus knows these things.



From kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Dec  7 02:03:54 2003
From: kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk (Kirstini)
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 02:03:54 -0000
Subject: Edinburgh/advent
In-Reply-To: <bqrus7+h19q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <bqu1qa+ur4g@eGroups.com>

Hi Martha - 
as an Edinburgh native, I'd like to poke my head into the debate and 
offer a few tips:
The ghost tour company to go on runs tours of Mary King's Close from 
outside St Giles Cathedral on the Royal Mile. The Witchery Ghost 
Tours are also worth checking out. Nicholsons (now Chinese Buffet 
King) is beside The Black Medicine coffe company, opposite the 
Festival Theatre. However, JKR's *other* favourite cafe is still very 
much intact and exactly as it would have been when she was writing 
the books - The Elephant House on George the Fourth Bridge. 
If you can, get yourself to Bruntsfield and Morningside, (esp 
Morningside Safeway) as you may bump into the lady herself. If you 
want to eat really good contemporary Scottish food (I don't mean 
haggis, or deep-fried Mars Bars), try The Dial (also on George the 
Fourth) or Stac Poly on Grindlay Street if feeling a bit more flush. 
Fun places to go out drinking/dancing (authentic Scottish experience, 
dontchaknow) are the Grassmarket and the Cowgate (go back to the 
Grassmarket during the day and visit Armstrongs, a fantastic vintage 
clothing shop, if you're that way inclined. There are also a lot of 
good restaurants on Victoria Street by the Grassmarket). Under no 
circumstances go to Lothian Road after dark (far too authentic a 
Scottish experience). If you are going to be here between Christmas 
and New Year, check out the winter festival in Princes Street 
Gardens. There may also be a bit of street theatre going on.
As well as the castle (which is really boring. Trust me), on the 
Royal Mile you'll find the Camera Obscura - a large black and white 
tower. Climb to the top and you'll be able to see the entire city - 
and they run a camera obscura where you can home in on people 
wallking along Princes Street.
If interested in art, good place to go are the City Art Gallery and 
the Fruitmarket Gallery down by Waverly Station. These are cheaper 
than the big galleries on Princes Street. Also near the station is a 
really excellent tapas restaurant - Barijoca on Jeffrey Street.

That's probably enough to keep you going for a few days...
Kirstini 




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Sun Dec  7 04:05:04 2003
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 04:05:04 -0000
Subject: And You Thought They Were Mythical!
Message-ID: <bqu8tg+7qt4@eGroups.com>

Strange but true......

"The University of Tennessee, Knoxville is known internationally for 
its research on centaurs."


http://web.utk.edu/~blyons/centaur.html

  - CMC




From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com  Sun Dec  7 05:32:49 2003
From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (IggyMcSnurd)
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 23:32:49 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] re: Prayer and Incantation (was: Religious Freedom...Was Re: Faith Education
In-Reply-To: <bqrs59+j8f6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000201c3bc83$91922e80$d992aec7@Einstein>

> Catlady
>Incantation ... actually, that's word I mostly associate with the
>Potterverse. Do you mean 'spells', also known as Magickal 'work' or
>'doing magic'?? If so, surely using words is the least of it (magick
>can be done with no words at all) -- surely the most important part is
>the intention and the raising, focusing, and sending of 'energy'? To
>me, it is much different than petitionary prayer, in the same way that
>for me to go to the kitchen to fix a cup of tea is different than me
>calling out to Tim: "please, dear sweet Tim, can you be a darling and
>get me a cup of tea?"

Iggy here:

I'm talking about actual spoken spells or prayers... And just as
spells/magick can be done without the spoken word, so can prayer.

It can also be said that acts of faith (which would be the same as inner
magic) can be ultimately doing something yourself.  Your strength of
faith and belief in your higher power ultimately comes from you.  You
chose to believe, or you don't.  It's not placed in you by God, for
instance.  According to the Christian and Hebrew faiths, God gave free
will to mankind.  This is what allows them to choose to whether or not
to believe in Him.  If God put your faith in Him into you through His
direct power, that eliminates the free will and choice.  So if you do
something that is seen as an act of True Faith (as many Christians might
put it...), then the power comes from you in your belief in God.  Your
will and faith are so strong, that you are the one who ultimately
provides the effect, since you (among other things) have the strength of
belief that God will allow you to do what is right.  (That's how *I*
perceive it, at least...)  You don't beseech God for aid, you simply
have the faith that what you are doing will be done.

This is similar to "inner magick" where the power comes from the person
focusing it.  You have a strong enough faith in yourself, or in your
higher power, that you are able to do what you seek to do.  This can be,
as I said, faith in yourself... otherwise known as the Will.  Your
strength in your belief that you can do what you Will to have done (and
that Karma will allow you to... or some other cosmic force or balance)
is not that different than True Faith.  

Do you *believe*you can make that cup of tea?  That's just as important
as believing that Tim can when you ask him to.

*grin*


>> Iggy:
>> What's the real difference between Ritual, and a religious Rite
>> such as Communion?
>> Both involve the structured use of items, both literal and symbolic,
>> in a structured manner, and accompanied by prayer/incantations with 
>> the intent to achieve a desired result with the aid of a Power.

> Catlady:
>If it's liturgical, it's Ritual, regardless whether Pagan, Christian,
>or anything else (e.g. secular). By 'if it's liturgical', I mean if it
>has a script (whether written or memorized) which is always followed
>the same every time the ritual is done ... a lot of the formality in
>secular government courtrooms fits that category. Maybe we can argue
>about whether the secular rituals intend to be aided by a Power. 

Iggy here:

Well... why do a lot of courts still make you swear to "tell the truth,
the whole truth, and nothing but the truth... *so help me God*"?

The "secular" world still incorporates a great deal of religion (usually
the most widely practiced one in that country) without recognizing,
realizing, or acknowledging it.

"In God We Trust" on the US currency...
"God Save the King/Queen" in the UK's anthem...

Just two of the most basic examples...

> Catlady:
>(If we wrote a brand-new script that this is the first time it's used,
>or we just improvised, then why do we call it a Ritual?)

Iggy here:

Because even a script leaves some room for improvisation and variance.
Act in a play sometime, or even go to see one 3 nights in a row.  I will
guarantee you that no two performances will be exactly the same.  (The
high school productions I was in of both "the Crucible", and "A Funny
Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum" are *prime* examples of this
rule...)

Also, even if you do something with a different pattern or methodology
each time (as the spirit moves you, so to speak...) but incorporate many
of the same elements or accoutrements, then it adheres to a *basic*
script/format and is still a ritual.

To give you an example, the only time I ever did "Blood and Fire"
magick, I wasn't intending to when I started... but something in me
*during the ritual* told me that I needed to add some of my own blood
into it to give it more power.  So, I cut my thumb and used the blood
from that cut in the ritual itself.  I had never been taught an
"official" or "scripted" manner to do "Blood & Fire" magick, and other
than that, the ritual was the same basic pattern I generally use.  The
difference was that something in me told me that I needed to do
something differently.

I'd also like to point out that I did it on the Winter Equinox, the one
4 years ago with the full moon, and added my own blood.  Makes for a
potent combo.  I was doing the ritual for my life to get better and for
me to get something in the coming year that would help me to feel that I
was living the life I was supposed to be living.  A couple of months
later, something happened in my wife's life (before we officially met)
that caused me to contact me and talk to me about the massive problem
she had encountered.  From there, we began talking a lot more, and a few
months after that... I was moving down to Alabama to be with her.  In
late December, just after Christmas, she found out she was pregnant.  I
became a father and we got married the next year... and I am finally
living a life that I always wanted, but never thought I would have...
I'm even going back to school to get my degree.

Nobody will be able to convince me that the Ritual I did that night
didn't harness some serious power to get me where I am supposed to be...
*grin*


> Catlady:
>
>Btw do you intend to imply that some Christians *deny* that a prayer
>they always say the same way or a part of their worship service that
>is always the same (or their Communion) is a 'ritual'? 

Iggy here:

No, I am directly stating that many members of more accepted beliefs
close their eyes to the similarities between their beliefs, and many of
the others out there.  When you get down to it, Communion is a symbolic
representation of a Ritual that involves the powers of Blood and Life.
(The wine and communion wafer representing the blood and body of
Christ.)

Many Christians acknowledge that it's a Ritual, but even few of those
recognize that it has any similarity with the Rituals of other faiths...
especially the Rituals done by the (Neo-)Pagans.


Just my two centaur's worth (and one man's opinion...)

Iggy McSnurd








From dradamsapple at yahoo.com  Sun Dec  7 05:50:53 2003
From: dradamsapple at yahoo.com (dradamsapple)
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 05:50:53 -0000
Subject: June, 1963
In-Reply-To: <1070760447.C5D8EC7@w37.dngr.org>
Message-ID: <bquf3t+jfk1@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Heidi Tandy <heidilist at t...> 
wrote:
> 
> On Sat, 6 Dec 2003 8:22pm, dradamsapple wrote:
> 
> > Two fantastic actors (and not bad to look at) born THREE days 
apart???
> > Wow!
> > What was in the stars the previous October??
> 
> August/September. If you're born the first week of June, and you're 
> term, you were conceieved in late August or early September.
> 
> 
> Heidi, who delivered june 2, 2003, and thus knows these things.



Er, right.  Yeah, Aug/Sep.
Subtraction was never my best subject.
Thanks Heidi!

Anna . . .




From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com  Sun Dec  7 06:07:38 2003
From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (IggyMcSnurd)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 00:07:38 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] June, 1963
In-Reply-To: <bqtv39+iktk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000301c3bc88$6e3afe80$d992aec7@Einstein>

>Anna . . .(who was born exactly three years to the day before 
>Johnny! >squee!< we share a b-day!)

Iggy here:

If you want to have some fun, click on this link to find out what
births, deaths, and marriages happened on the same month and day as your
birthday.  (This is through the IMDB site...)

Here's for my birthday:

http://www.imdb.com/OnThisDay?day=15&month=May

If you want to change it to yours, it should be pretty obvious.  Just
change the day number, and the month name...

Here are a few shared birthdays from mine... and the last one's my
favorite...  *grin*  (There are a LOT more on the list, but these are
the ones I recognize...)

Ahmet Zappa  (son of Frank Zappa, brother to Dweezil and Moon Unit)
Lee Horsley  (actor)
John Blyth Barrymore  (actor, Drew Barrymore's father)
Lainie Kazan  (actress... recently played Maria in "My Big Fat Greek
Wedding")
Madeleine Albright   (first woman to serve as US Secretary of State,
assigned by Bill Clinton)
Trini L?pez  (actor / singer,  wrote "If I Had a Hammer", "Michael", and
"Lemon Tree")
David Healy  (Actor)
James Mason   (actor, played Phillip Vandamm... the main bad guy, in my
favorite Hitchcock film, "North by Northwest.")
L. Frank Baum  (writer, creator of the "Wizard of OZ" series...)



Anyone else out there care to have some fun with this?  *grin*

Iggy McSnurd

PS:  Here's yours, Anna:  http://www.imdb.com/OnThisDay?day=9&month=June




 





From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Sun Dec  7 07:57:19 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 07:57:19 -0000
Subject: Brit. Food: Pancakes and Waffles
Message-ID: <bqumgv+p4du@eGroups.com>

The subject of food (Spotted Dick) has come up in the main group
again, and that sent me searching for Brit Food related threads in
this group that I could refer people to. That in turn lead me to this
reference by David in the Mar 19, 2003 Subject: "Pies, puddings,
biscuits and tarts" thread-

"But, I believe, Americans eat filling sweet food for breakfast that
we wouldn't, except, perhaps, on holiday (er (or uh), that's
vacation to you, um, y'all)? Buttermilk pancakes and maple syrup
springs to mind."

I confess a very strong interest in pancakes and waffles as they
present themselves in British society because they play a significant
part in a HP fanfic I am writing.

If Brits don't eat pancakes and/or waffles for breakfast, brunch, or
lunch, then when do they eat them? 

Do they even eat them at all? 

I've very curious as to how, when, where, and why a Brit migh eat
these foods. Would a waffle qualify as 'afters' or 'pudding', or would
you attempt to make it the center piece or side piece of a main early
or mid-day meal.

Example:
Assuming we can establish a context for eating waffles, are they
likely to be waffles and maple syrup, or waffles with strawberries and
whipped cream. For reference, I prefer waffles with 'fruit on the
bottom' yoghurt (mmmmm... yummy), but then *I* always was a little odd.

Are they likely to be thin/standard waffles like frozen toaster
waffles (do Brits have frozen toaster waffles, and does anyone eat
them; if so, when and how?), or are they the inch thick fluffy sweet
crispy Belgian waffles?

I would be eternally greatful to any Brits would could put pancakes
and waffles into their proper social and culinary prepective for me.

Thanks. 

bboy_mn








From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk  Sun Dec  7 13:10:48 2003
From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak)
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 13:10:48 -0000
Subject: Brit. Food: Pancakes and Waffles
In-Reply-To: <bqumgv+p4du@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <bqv8sp+c2tf@eGroups.com>

Steve wrote:
> I confess a very strong interest in pancakes and waffles as they
> present themselves in British society because they play a 
> significant part in a HP fanfic I am writing.
> 
> If Brits don't eat pancakes and/or waffles for breakfast, brunch, 
> or lunch, then when do they eat them? 
> 
> Do they even eat them at all? 

There is one day in the year when almost every Brit will eat 
pancakes. They are a traditional dish on Shrove Tuesday, usually 
referred to as 'Pancake Tuesday'. I think in America, it's called 
Mardi Gras?

Pancakes are not a breakfast dish here. They most often appear as a 
sweet after the evening meal, or maybe as a treat for kids. The 
traditional style is not like American pancakes (which are closer to 
what we call 'Scotch pancakes'). Pancakes are made with flour, eggs 
and milk (no baking powder or sodium bicarb). They are best if the 
mixture is allowed to stand for an hour or so - then they are pan 
cooked in the same way as the pancakes you are used to.

They might *possibly* turn up as a special brunch, but it will be a 
special occasion.

The truly traditional will serve them with lemon juice and sugar on 
top (NO BUTTER!). This is so well known as the usual English way to 
serve pancakes that it's known as pancakes English Style in most of 
Europe.

However, we do know about other toppings. We have even been known to 
do savoury toppings - but on the whole, an English pancake will be 
flat, non risen, about the size of a dinner plate, covered in lemon 
juice and sugar and then rolled up to make something looking rather 
like a rolled napkin.

> Would a waffle qualify as 'afters' or 'pudding', or would
> you attempt to make it the center piece or side piece of a main 
> early or mid-day meal.

Well, in my childhood in the North of England, I wouldn't have eaten 
a waffle at all [grin]. They are not an English dish. They do appear 
nowadays, but they're just *not* standard food. 

Hardly anyone in the UK would own a waffle iron, and if they do, 
they probably have some North American background (or maybe 
Dutch/Belgian background). Apart from the now much loved 'potato 
waffle' (see below), waffles come under the heading of 'treat'. You 
could use it as a pudding. But it wouldn't be an ordinary pudding.

> 
> Example:
> Assuming we can establish a context for eating waffles, are they
> likely to be waffles and maple syrup, or waffles with strawberries 
> and whipped cream. For reference, I prefer waffles with 'fruit on 
> the bottom' yoghurt (mmmmm... yummy), but then *I* always was a 
little odd.


Right, well. It would have to be a 'treat' sort of occasion. A 
dinner party, a birthday party, a special anniversary breakfast, 
something of that sort. The context would probably be someone 
looking up recipes for 'things to do with waffles' - we wouldn't 
know how to eat a waffle off the top of our heads. 

So you could well have strawberries and cream on top of a waffle - 
maple syrup is all imported in the UK, remember. It's *expensive*.

I think we'd usually buy Belgian waffles, but to be honest, I could 
only tell that if they had a lable on the packet saying 'Belgian 
waffles'. We do have those, I've seen them.

Oddly, the most common form of waffle in Britain is the 'potato 
waffle'. These are potato formed into waffle shapes, come frozen in 
packets, generally oven cooked or maybe deep fried depending on the 
make. They are very popular with kids, as you can do fun things with 
your food - baked beans, eggs, tinned spaghetti can all find 
themselves on top of a potato waffle.

> 
> Are they likely to be thin/standard waffles like frozen toaster
> waffles (do Brits have frozen toaster waffles, and does anyone eat
> them; 

Somebody may, but I don't remember ever seeing them here.
 
> or are they the inch thick fluffy sweet crispy Belgian waffles?

Belgian waffles, I have seen. Mostly in restaurants, but you can buy 
them (see above).

> 
> I would be eternally greatful to any Brits would could put pancakes
> and waffles into their proper social and culinary prepective for 
me.
> 

Hope that's some help.

Pip




From mphunt at sprintmail.com  Sun Dec  7 14:10:16 2003
From: mphunt at sprintmail.com (Tracy Hunt)
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 14:10:16 -0000
Subject: June, 1963
In-Reply-To: <000301c3bc88$6e3afe80$d992aec7@Einstein>
Message-ID: <bqvcc8+115ac@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "IggyMcSnurd" 
<coyoteschild at p...> wrote:
> >Anna . . .(who was born exactly three years to the day before 
> >Johnny! >squee!< we share a b-day!)
> 
> Iggy here:
> 
> If you want to have some fun, click on this link to find out what
> births, deaths, and marriages happened on the same month and day as 
your
> birthday.  (This is through the IMDB site...)
> 
> Here's for my birthday:
> 
> http://www.imdb.com/OnThisDay?day=15&month=May
> 
> If you want to change it to yours, it should be pretty obvious.  
Just
> change the day number, and the month name...


Tcy here:

Darn you, Iggy McSnurd!  Finding more ways for me to goof off on the 
computer....

Here's the highlights from October 18 (my birthday):

Wynton Marsalis (composer/jazz musician/actor)
Jean-Claude Can Damme (actor - yeah, right)
Martina Navratilova (tennis great)
Pam Dawber (actor - Mindy, from Mork & Mindy (w/ Robin Williams))
Wendy Wasserstein (playwright)
Dawn Wells (actor - Maryann, from Gilligan's Island)
Peter Boyle (actor - Raymond's father in Everybody Loves Raymond)
George C. Scott 
Chuck Berry 






From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com  Sun Dec  7 14:34:40 2003
From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (IggyMcSnurd)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 08:34:40 -0600
Subject: Birthdays (was - RE: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: June, 1963)
In-Reply-To: <bqvcc8+115ac@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000001c3bccf$43b0fab0$03e579a5@Einstein>


>Tcy here:
>
>Darn you, Iggy McSnurd!? Finding more ways for me to goof off on the 
>computer....

Iggy here: 

*grin*  Well, *you* can consider it payback for introducing me to the
Advertising Slogan Generator site...



>Tcy
>Here's the highlights from October 18 (my birthday):
>
>Wynton Marsalis (composer/jazz musician/actor)
>Jean-Claude Van Damme (actor - yeah, right)
>Martina Navratilova (tennis great)
>Pam Dawber (actor - Mindy, from Mork & Mindy (w/ Robin Williams))
>Wendy Wasserstein (playwright)
>Dawn Wells (actor - Maryann, from Gilligan's Island)
>Peter Boyle (actor - Raymond's father in Everybody Loves Raymond)
>George C. Scott 
>Chuck Berry 

Iggy here:

Jeez... you got a lot of good ones.

Van Damme's early stuff is ok, his later stuff is just schlock... (much
like the career of Steven Segal.)

Pam Dawber is cool...

Dawn Wells... You know, I was one of those guys who always thought
Maryann was *so* much hotter than Ginger.

Peter Boyle... I loved him in Young Frankenstein and in Johnny
Dangerously...  *grin*


And then those two great musicians.  Cool.

(Although I still wouldn't trade with you.  *grin*  I like having the
same b-day as L. Frank Baum too much.)


Iggy McSnurd

 





From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk  Sun Dec  7 14:36:47 2003
From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak)
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 14:36:47 -0000
Subject: Edinburgh/advent
In-Reply-To: <bqu1qa+ur4g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <bqvdtv+r6u3@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Kirstini" <kirst_inn at y...> 
wrote:
> The ghost tour company to go on runs tours of Mary King's Close 
> from outside St Giles Cathedral on the Royal Mile. 

Ooh, yes! Been on those. The Mary King's Close one is really good.

> However, JKR's *other* favourite cafe is still 
> very much intact and exactly as it would have been when she was 
> writing the books - The Elephant House on George the Fourth       
> Bridge. 

Which is a very nice cafe, too. The type where you can relax and 
hang out for hours. I suspect other authors are busily composing 
their latest epics there (and probably praying that some God of 
Incredibly High Book Sales hangs about the place).



> As well as the castle (which is really boring. Trust me), 

Not if you're a history buff. I did history as a minor in my degree, 
and I was practically pulled out of Edinburgh Castle whimpering at 
closing time ('what do you *mean*, I can't stay overnight?').


If you are a history buff, or do renaissance fairs, or SCA, or 
anything like that, get one of the audio tour tapes they hire out 
and allow a day. If you aren't, a couple of hours will probably do 
you [grin].


> on the Royal Mile you'll find the Camera Obscura - a large black 
> and white tower. Climb to the top and you'll be able to see the 
> entire city - and they run a camera obscura where you can home in 
> on people walking along Princes Street.

Also good.

My personal 'must' is one of the ghost tours. Especially one of the 
ones that go to the underground parts of Edinburgh (like most 
European cities, Old Edinburgh is basically built on top of even 
older Edinburgh. It's unusual in that some of the lower, older bits 
are still safe to walk through.)

Pip!Squeak




From udderpd at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Dec  7 14:56:08 2003
From: udderpd at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?udder=5Fpen=5Fdragon?=)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 14:56:08 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Brit. Food: Pancakes and Waffles
In-Reply-To: <bqv8sp+c2tf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20031207145608.84324.qmail@web25107.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>



bluesqueak <pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk> wrote:
Steve wrote:
> I confess a very strong interest in pancakes and waffles as they
> present themselves in British society because they play a 
> significant part in a HP fanfic I am writing.
> 
Then Pip Wrote

There is one day in the year when almost every Brit will eat 
pancakes. They are a traditional dish on Shrove Tuesday, usually 
referred to as 'Pancake Tuesday'. I think in America, it's called 
Mardi Gras?


Udder Pendragon

First I agree with everything Pip said and I would like to add that pancake day is Shrove Tuesday the day before Ash Wednesday, the start of lent. Also the flour should be plain flour.

Pip was rightly saying about the lack in the normal shops of these things, well. If steve is trying to write HP Fan Fic, he is probably writing about 1996/97 time when these American food items were even less common.

I will offer, off list, to  endevor to answer "British" questions for aspiring Fan Fic Writers, find me on udderpd at btinternet.com 

Uddeu Pendragon
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From hp at plum.cream.org  Sun Dec  7 15:49:24 2003
From: hp at plum.cream.org (gulplum)
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 15:49:24 -0000
Subject: Brit. Food: Pancakes and Waffles
In-Reply-To: <bqv8sp+c2tf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <bqvi64+o69u@eGroups.com>

I'm not going to quote Pip, because she gave a pretty complete 
picture of current British attitudes to waffles and pancakes, but I'd 
like to offer a little background and other information to complete 
the picture.

Most (though far from all!) British culinary traditions hail from 
Europe and a lot of them haven't really left restaurants, etc. to 
enter daily routines. To be fair, though, over the last few years 
(due in no small part to the preponderance of cookery shows on TV), 
people are getting a little more adventurous at home.

Waffles are one such item. In France and Belgium, they are very 
traditional, and most households in Northern France would have owned 
a waffle iron until the advent of convenience food. There are two 
distinct traditions, though. Apart from what Americans would 
instantly recognise, there is a separate tradition of much smaller, 
thinner items (about half the size of the average palm), eaten like 
biscuits (sorry, cookies). :-)

In France today, every bakery sells waffles, though they're generally 
a little "crunchier" than the American variety, sprinkled with sugar. 
Restaurants on both sides of the Channel serve them as desserts with 
ice cream or drenched in alcohol (Rum or Grand Marnier). 

Further to a recent thread about Christmas traditions, waffles are a 
traditional French kids' treat on New Year's Day. Oh, and a bit of 
trivia: the French for Waffle is "goufre", which also happens to be 
the French word for Gopher (as in the North American rodent). Is 
there a connection? :-)

Potato waffles are an American invention, born from a combination (or 
confrontation!) of the Jewish latke with the waffle iron. They made 
their way to the British isles with other American culinary ideas 
during and after WWII. They've caught on as a frozen convenience food 
and most people wouldn't dream of making them.

In Britain, there are two separate pancake traditions, as Pip said. 
One is the "Scottish" pancake, which is pretty much like the American 
pancake. The other (prevalent) tradition is what Americans call 
crepes, which is justified, because we both (Americans and Brits) got 
them from the French. Why "crepes" became "pancakes" in British 
English is beyond me. I assume that British and American traditions 
regarding crepes remain the same, in that we continue to eat them 
like the French, as a dessert. 

Nevertheless, the French do have a tradition of eating just about 
anything rolled into pancakes and there are restaurants in France 
which have a complete pancake menu (i.e. everything, from your 
starter to your dessert, is served rolled in a crepe rather than with 
pasta or some form of potato). France is, of course, also famous for 
street-side crepe stands, which serve hot crepes and waffles with 
fillings/coverings of your choice (usually, but not necessarily, 
sweet).

Related British traditions which don't seem to have made it over the 
Atlantic are crumpets and muffins (English muffins bear absolutely no 
relation to the North American variety, which is confusing because 
American muffins have made it across the Atlantic within the last 
decade or so). Muffins and crumpets can certainly be part of an 
English Breakfast, topped with just about anything you would normally 
eat with bread (personal favourite: crumpets and Marmite. Yum!). 
Nowadays, though, they tend to be part of Afternoon Tea rather than 
breakfast.

And a note on maple syrup. The maple (tree) is exclusively native to 
North America. There is therefore no tradition of eating maple syrup 
outside North America (due to its non-existence) and wherever it's 
sold it's an imported product, and accordingly quite expensive. The 
concept of drenching anything in this product is pretty much 
unthinkable. 

I think that pretty much covers all the bases (to finish on an 
American idiom) :-)





From mckosvc at bmts.com  Sun Dec  7 16:04:57 2003
From: mckosvc at bmts.com (ovc88guelph)
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 16:04:57 -0000
Subject: Brit. Food: Pancakes and Waffles
In-Reply-To: <bqv8sp+c2tf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <bqvj39+81vu@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "bluesqueak" <pipdowns at e...> 
wrote:

 So you could well have strawberries and cream on top of a waffle - 
> maple syrup is all imported in the UK, remember. It's *expensive*.
> 
> Pip

     It's expensive here too! But having made it several times, I 
think it's worth every penny to buy. It takes 5 gallons of maple sap 
to make one pint of syrup (or 40 litres to 500 ml, if you prefer.)I 
used to tap 6 trees some years ago, and that was enough to provide 
syrup for family and friends. But the work! I would snowshoe out to 
the trees, which are conveniently located 5 fields back. I would 
empty sap buckets into a 5 gallon pail in my back pack, hike back to 
the house, and spend the entire day boiling the sap down on the wood 
stove in my kitchen. On one occasion, the strap of one of my 
snowshoes broke mid stride. The free foot sank 3 feet in the snow, 
the other foot remained on top. With the weight of the full pail, I 
went over backwards and floundered like the proverbial turtle on its 
back. Of course, I was frantic that my day's supply of sap was 
spilling, and that put energy behind my efforts. The next day, I was 
making the sap run with some city friends who were keen on the 
rustic experience of syruping. When we reached the spot of my 
previous day's accident, the lady friend piped up "Oh look, some 
poor wild animal got trapped in the deep snow." Her husband dryly 
pointed out the "wild animal"'s snow shoe tracks leading away from 
the hole, and we all had a good laugh. I quit making syrup that 
year, and now happily pay $13 Cdn per litre! Of course, my little 
syruping project was not the way pros do it. Our neighbours tap 400 
trees, have a pipeline, pick up sap in a Gator, and boil it in 
stainless steel evaporators. But the atmosphere in the sugar shack, 
where friends gather and bottles of wine are uncorked is probably 
not much different from pioneer days. 

   The English pancakes you describe sound like crepes, which we 
have rolled up with syrup inside as breakfast food (on special 
occasions with blueberries and whipped cream) or with a filling as 
dessert or even supper. Pancakes are also common, standard fare for 
brekkie. Makes me long for cereal sometimes!

   MMcK, whose better half has made banana muffins for 
breakfast...what a relief! 




From strom5150 at charter.net  Sun Dec  7 16:34:52 2003
From: strom5150 at charter.net (strom5150)
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 16:34:52 -0000
Subject: June, 1963
In-Reply-To: <000301c3bc88$6e3afe80$d992aec7@Einstein>
Message-ID: <bqvkrc+opvi@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "IggyMcSnurd" 
<coyoteschild at p...> wrote:
> >Anna . . .(who was born exactly three years to the day before 
> >Johnny! >squee!< we share a b-day!)
> 
> Iggy here:
> 
> If you want to have some fun, click on this link to find out what
> births, deaths, and marriages happened on the same month and day as 
your
> birthday.  (This is through the IMDB site...)
> 

Now Danielle:

Well, I'm just happy to share my birthday with everyone's favorite 
wizard and his creator!

However, I did go to the site, and I did not recognize one name on 
the July 31st list (except for J.K. Rowling).

It was a long list, and maybe I missed someone obvious, but now I 
feel like I must have been living under a rock until now! I'm sure 
I've heard of a few famous people I'm actually familiar with who 
share my birthday, but of course I can't remember who they are.

Danielle




From erinellii at yahoo.com  Sun Dec  7 17:08:55 2003
From: erinellii at yahoo.com (erinellii)
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 17:08:55 -0000
Subject: June, 1963
In-Reply-To: <bqvkrc+opvi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <bqvmr7+irvc@eGroups.com>

 Danielle: 
> However, I did go to the site, and I did not recognize one name on 
> the July 31st list (except for J.K. Rowling).
> 
> It was a long list, and maybe I missed someone obvious, but now I 
> feel like I must have been living under a rock until now! I'm sure 
> I've heard of a few famous people I'm actually familiar with who 
> share my birthday, but of course I can't remember who they are.


Erin:
Don't feel bad, I only recognized two of mine.  Margaret Atwood and 
Alan Dean Foster, both authors.  I was reduced to scrolling downwards 
hoping someone important had died on my birthday (November 18). Alas, 
no luck there either. Too bad they don't list cartoon characters, as 
I happen to know I share a birthday with Mickey Mouse.

Erin




From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Sun Dec  7 17:12:50 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 17:12:50 -0000
Subject: THANK YOU: Brit. Food: Pancakes and Waffles
In-Reply-To: <bqumgv+p4du@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <bqvn2i+9kd9@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <bboy_mn at y...> wrote:
> 
> I confess a very strong interest in pancakes and waffles as they
> present themselves in British society because they play a 
> significant part in a HP fanfic I am writing.
> 
> If Brits don't eat pancakes and/or waffles for breakfast, brunch, or
> lunch, then when do they eat them? 
> 

bboy_mn:

Thanks to everyone who has replied or who might still reply.
Fastinating information and insight into the British world of
pancakes. Who knew so much knowledge could be contain in such a simple
food.

> 
> Example:
> Assuming we can establish a context for eating waffles, are they
> likely to be waffles and maple syrup, ...edited...
> 
> Thanks. 
> 
> bboy_mn


bboy_mn:

Several people expanded on the subject of Maple Syrup's use in
Britian. To that I will point out that few Americans eat TRUE maple
syrup. It's mostly the fair of bachelors, yuppies, and the rich. No
one with a pack of kids would have Maple syrup in their house; who
could afford it?

Most maple-like syrup, which includes most commercial brands of
pancake syrup are mostly carmel colored corn syrup with maple
flavoring. The better brands might actually have 10% to 20% real maple
syrup in them. So very few people ever have real pure maple syrup. I
don't think I ever had any until I was full grow, earning a good
living, and living on my own.

Thanks again.

Steve/bboy_mn




From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Dec  7 18:12:01 2003
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 18:12:01 -0000
Subject: Brit. Food: Pancakes and Waffles
In-Reply-To: <bqvi64+o69u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <bqvqhh+g5v2@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "gulplum" <hp at p...> wrote:

> Waffles are one such item. In France and Belgium, they are very 
> traditional(snip) There are two distinct traditions, though. (snip) 
> there is a separate tradition of much smaller, thinner items (about 
> half the size of the average palm), eaten like biscuits (sorry, 
> cookies). :-)

Pizzelles?




From zanelupin at yahoo.com  Sun Dec  7 18:27:31 2003
From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (KathyK)
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 18:27:31 -0000
Subject: June, 1963
In-Reply-To: <bqvmr7+irvc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <bqvrej+bm0n@eGroups.com>

Hi All,

A procrastinator can never pass up a good time-waster!

I only recognized a few of the people on that list who share my 
birthday [September 19], too.

Jimmy Fallon and Cheri Oteri, both I know from "Saturday Night Live."

Jeremy Irons (I know I've seen him in some things)
Adam West (Batman!)

Mama Cass Elliot (of the Mamas and the Papas)
Bill Medley (of the Righteous Brothers)

The last two I know of because my mother *loves* her oldies music 
and I grew up listening to them and learning their names, and all 
the trivia bits she's picked up over the years.  As a result I'm a 
huge oldies fan, myself, and was made fun of accordingly by all the 
kids my age who thought oldies were boring, annoying, and well, 
*old.*  Silly people.  Where do they think they're music came from?

Oh, and I've got Hermione sharing my birthday, too, so that's fun!

KathyK, playing hookey from her daytime job and putting off getting 
ready for the other one




From fakeplastikcynic at hotmail.com  Sun Dec  7 18:29:27 2003
From: fakeplastikcynic at hotmail.com (Martha)
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 18:29:27 -0000
Subject: June, 1963
In-Reply-To: <000301c3bc88$6e3afe80$d992aec7@Einstein>
Message-ID: <bqvri7+6b67@eGroups.com>

Iggy:

> If you want to have some fun, click on this link to find out what
> births, deaths, and marriages happened on the same month and day as 
your
> birthday.  (This is through the IMDB site...)
> 
> http://www.imdb.com/OnThisDay?day=15&month=May

Martha:

Hmmph. I didn't recognise a single name on the list of people I share 
my birthday (May 30th, since you ask) with. However, Dooley Wilson 
died on my birthday (if I remember correctly, he's the guy who 
sang "As time goes by", the song from Casablanca). Is it just me or 
is that a bit depressing?

However, this link:

http://www.deanview95fc.co.uk/funstuff/number1s.htm

... tells you what was number one in the UK charts on the day you 
were born. Mine was "House of Fun" by Madness, which has brightened 
up my day no end.

~ Martha, who thinks the last word of Harry Potter Book 7 will 
be "ska", not "scar", as in, "and then Harry put on a suit and danced 
to some ska"




From illyana at mindspring.com  Sun Dec  7 19:19:05 2003
From: illyana at mindspring.com (illyana delorean)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 12:19:05 -0700
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] June, 1963
In-Reply-To: <000301c3bc88$6e3afe80$d992aec7@Einstein>
References: <000301c3bc88$6e3afe80$d992aec7@Einstein>
Message-ID: <397C5005-28EA-11D8-B002-003065B8B954@mindspring.com>


> Iggy here:
>
> If you want to have some fun, click on this link to find out what
> births, deaths, and marriages happened on the same month and day as 
> your
> birthday.? (This is through the IMDB site...)

I've done this before, but it's always fun to discuss birthdays!

Here are the people I recognized from my list:

Ariana Richards (Lex from "Jurassic Park") 1979
Ludacris (rapper) 1977
Harry Connick Jr. 1967
Moby 1965
Brian De Palma (director) 1940

People who died on my birthday:

John Ritter 2003
Jessica Tandy 1994
Nikita Khrushchev 1971

Pretty boring, I know. Here's the link in case anyone's interested: 
http://www.imdb.com/OnThisDay?day=11&month=September

illyana

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From alexpie at aol.com  Sun Dec  7 19:25:19 2003
From: alexpie at aol.com (alexpie at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 14:25:19 EST
Subject: Birthday Boys
Message-ID: <1c3.12b9dbe1.2d04d89f@aol.com>

Anna wrote:
> Two fantastic actors (and not bad to look at) born THREE days apart???
> Wow!  
> 

Try this one: Hugh Grant, September 9, 1960; Colin Firth, September 10, 1960!
BaHa


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From hp at plum.cream.org  Sun Dec  7 20:34:14 2003
From: hp at plum.cream.org (GulPlum)
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 20:34:14 +0000
Subject: Mape Syrup/Pancakes
In-Reply-To: <bqvn2i+9kd9@eGroups.com>
References: <bqumgv+p4du@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20031207200700.00941370@plum.cream.org>

At 17:12 07/12/03 , Steve wrote:

>Most maple-like syrup, which includes most commercial brands of
>pancake syrup are mostly carmel colored corn syrup with maple
>flavoring. The better brands might actually have 10% to 20% real maple
>syrup in them. So very few people ever have real pure maple syrup. I
>don't think I ever had any until I was full grow, earning a good
>living, and living on my own.

The point I was trying to make is that the expense is secondary to the fact 
that maple syrup is simply foreign to European culinary tradition (and, 
perhaps more importantly, our palates). Since I wrote my previous message, 
I've been out and about, and popped into three (large, cosmopolitan) 
supermarkets. Only one sold "maple syrup", and the two products thus named 
were as described above, with just a small percentage of the actual stuff. 
The price tag was over ?1.50 (around $US2) for 300ml (i.e. standard soft 
drink can). Looking around online, a British supermarket (Tesco) is selling 
the pure stuff for ?2.50 (around $US4) for 330g (same quantity). How does 
that compare to typical US prices?

As for the British attitude to eating pancakes for breakfast, here's a 
(really) tangential HP example. As most people know, before getting the 
starring role in the HP movies, Dan Radcliffe had a small part in The 
Tailor Of Panama (as the son of the titular main protagonist). His only 
comprehensible line in the movie is in the penultimate scene when his 
screen dad asks what his kids want for breakfast. "Can we have pancakes?", 
asks pre-Harry Dan, and gets a really quizzical look in return (and, 
eventually, a pancake). There's a screen grab of the "pancake factory" in 
full swing at http://tinyurl.com/y51k

(actually 
ttp://www.radnetcafe.com/new_drgalleries/albums/tailor_of_panama/ttop_0037.j 
pg but that's going to wrap).

(oh, and just for completeness, here's an MP3 of him saying the line, from 
my site: http://plum.cream.org/HP/misc/pancakes.mp3 ).





From neonsister at ameritech.net  Sun Dec  7 21:54:37 2003
From: neonsister at ameritech.net (Tracy)
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 21:54:37 -0000
Subject: Birthdays (was - RE: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: June, 1963)
In-Reply-To: <000001c3bccf$43b0fab0$03e579a5@Einstein>
Message-ID: <br07it+88a7@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "IggyMcSnurd" 
<coyoteschild at p...> wrote:
> 
> "*grin*  Well, *you* can consider it payback for introducing me to 
the Advertising Slogan Generator site"

Actually, you have me (a different Tracy) to blame for that one! 

Tracy *the one in Ohio with the greyhounds* 
 




From boggles at earthlink.net  Sun Dec  7 23:29:46 2003
From: boggles at earthlink.net (Jennifer Boggess Ramon)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 17:29:46 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Brit. Food: Pancakes and Waffles
In-Reply-To: <bqvi64+o69u@eGroups.com>
References: <bqvi64+o69u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <p05200f00bbf967233fe7@[192.168.1.100]>

At 3:49 PM +0000 12/7/03, gulplum wrote:
>
>And a note on maple syrup. The maple (tree) is exclusively native to
>North America. There is therefore no tradition of eating maple syrup
>outside North America (due to its non-existence) and wherever it's
>sold it's an imported product, and accordingly quite expensive. The
>concept of drenching anything in this product is pretty much
>unthinkable.

Actually, it's fairly unthinkable to drench anything in maple syrup 
on a regular basis in most parts of the South in the US, for the same 
reason - sugar maples don't grow down here, either.  I imagine it's 
not quite as expensive, but it's still a "special occasion" thing.

However, we do have syrups that are not maple.  Probably the most 
common one is corn syrup, which is quite common across the US.  Local 
to the South is sorghum syrup, which is made from a different 
grain-type plant and is very good.  Then we get into things like 
molasses and sugar syrups . . . and things like mixes of corn and 
maple syrup with "maple flavoring" (ick).

Do y'all not pour any sort of syrup on your (*baked good of choice)? 
I seem to remember treacle and golden syrup being mentioned in 
various bits of Brit-lit that I read as a child, and had assumed that 
they were used in the same manner.

-- 

  - Boggles, aka J. C. B. Ramon			boggles(at)earthlink.net
"It is not knowledge, but the act of learning, not possession but the 
act of getting there, which grants the greatest enjoyment. "
	- Gauss, in a Letter to Bolyai, 1808.



From mckosvc at bmts.com  Mon Dec  8 00:29:39 2003
From: mckosvc at bmts.com (ovc88guelph)
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 00:29:39 -0000
Subject: Mape Syrup/Pancakes
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20031207200700.00941370@plum.cream.org>
Message-ID: <br0glj+a4ah@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, GulPlum <hp at p...> wrote:
> At 17:12 07/12/03 , Steve wrote:
> 
>.
> 
> The point I was trying to make is that the expense is secondary to 
the fact 
> that maple syrup is simply foreign to European culinary tradition 
(and, 
> perhaps more importantly, our palates). Since I wrote my previous 
message, 
> I've been out and about, and popped into three (large, 
cosmopolitan) 
> supermarkets. Only one sold "maple syrup", and the two products 
thus named 
> were as described above, with just a small percentage of the 
actual stuff. 
> The price tag was over ?1.50 (around $US2) for 300ml (i.e. 
standard soft 
> drink can). Looking around online, a British supermarket (Tesco) 
is selling 
> the pure stuff for ?2.50 (around $US4) for 330g (same quantity). 
How does 
> that compare to typical US prices?
> 
>
Not bad! Here it's $13 Cdn, or by my math, $9.75 US a litre. And by 
my calculations my family of 4 has used 9 litres since the 
last "run" in Feb. It gets used constantly, and we don't really make 
any effort to conserve it (although I only make maple cheese cake 
for out of country visitors...the recipe calls for 2 cups of syrup). 
Guess we never thought of this as a luxury!
 
MMcK




From uk_elf1 at hotmail.com  Mon Dec  8 00:35:58 2003
From: uk_elf1 at hotmail.com (uk_elf1)
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 00:35:58 -0000
Subject: ADMIN: Possible Threat to the HPFGU Family of Lists
Message-ID: <br0h1e+msht@eGroups.com>

Dear Members of the Harry Potter for Grownups Family of Lists, 

We regret the need to interrupt with a post of this nature. 

For the past several months, we (the List Administration Team) have 
been handling the disruption of several of the HP lists by an 
individual or individuals, and it has gotten to a point which we 
feel to be harassment. In addition, a threat has been made offlist 
to at least one member of the current admin team, and we are 
concerned that harassment of list members may have extended to 
others beyond admin team members. 

Until now, we have been handling this within the admin team, and 
have done our best to avoid burdening the lists with this situation -
 we felt it was an administrative problem, and so should be dealt 
with internally. Recently, however, we received a message which made 
it much more than just a list admin problem. 

We were contacted via the owners address with a frank threat against 
the lists, indicating that, unless certain demands are met, an 
irreversible action will be taken that will damage the HPFGU list 
community. 

The action was not specified; however, one of our auxiliary HPFGU 
lists was recently deleted by Yahoo, and the sender of this e-mail 
apparently took credit for that action, implying that "Terms of Use 
violations" were reported. Other owner messages have made reference 
to "holes" in our security. 

This threat may be as innocuous as the formation of an alternate 
list. However, we cannot ignore the possibility that serious harm 
may be intended to the HPFGU family of lists, and we felt it only 
fair that you should be alerted. This is your list community too. 

Some of us are concerned that we are being manipulated into 
complaining on the public HPFGU lists, or forwarding the emails, so 
a complaint for a violation of Yahoo's Terms of Use could be made. 
For that reason, we are not providing any names in this email. 

As our experience with the auxiliary group showed, Yahoo does not 
give notice before they delete a group. While it might seem 
incredible that they would delete a group with nearly 90,000 posts 
and three-plus years of history without investigating the details of 
an accusation, we have to be cautious, and beg Yahoo to listen to 
both sides of the story if a complaint is made. 

We are doing whatever we can to improve security on the lists. We 
will do our best to avoid any disruption of services, and we ask 
your understanding if odd things should happen to the lists. We 
intend to do whatever we can to prevent any damage to the HPFGU 
family of lists, including deletion of any other lists, should that 
be the form this threat takes.

However, should any HPFGU list(s) become inaccessible, you can visit 
The Lexicon at 
http://www.hp-lexicon.org for status updates and, if necessary, 
relocation information. 

Finally, in closing, we wish to apologize. We know the 
unresponsiveness of the admin team has been a source of frustration 
to many of you. It has been a source of frustration to us as well. 
We each have only so many hours to devote to HP, and over the past 
few months, most of them have been devoted to dealing with this 
situation. It has taken our time, energy, and enthusiasm away from 
our proper tasks: the fostering and running of these lists. And 
until this situation is resolved, some of our time must continue to 
be devoted to dealing with it. So we ask your continuing patience 
and understanding, while we do everything we can to protect this 
family of lists. 

Sincerely, 

The HPforGrownups List Administration Team








From dradamsapple at yahoo.com  Mon Dec  8 02:53:14 2003
From: dradamsapple at yahoo.com (dradamsapple)
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 02:53:14 -0000
Subject: June, 1963
In-Reply-To: <000301c3bc88$6e3afe80$d992aec7@Einstein>
Message-ID: <br0p2q+qovl@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "IggyMcSnurd" 
<coyoteschild at p...> wrote:
> >Anna . . .(who was born exactly three years to the day before 
> >Johnny! >squee!< we share a b-day!)
> 
> Iggy here:
> 
> If you want to have some fun, click on this link to find out what
> births, deaths, and marriages happened on the same month and day as 
your
> birthday.  (This is through the IMDB site...)
> 
> Here's for my birthday:
> 
> http://www.imdb.com/OnThisDay?day=15&month=May
> 
>

Ok, here's my list;

June 9:

Natalie Portman  b. 1981
Johnny Depp         1963
Michael J. Fox      1962
Aaron Sorkin        1961  (of West Wing fame)
Cole Porter         1891

Not too many others that I recognized.
Thanks for the link Iggy!  That was fun! :D

Anna . . .




From hp at plum.cream.org  Mon Dec  8 03:35:00 2003
From: hp at plum.cream.org (GulPlum)
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 03:35:00 +0000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Brit. Food: Pancakes and Waffles
In-Reply-To: <p05200f00bbf967233fe7@[192.168.1.100]>
References: <bqvi64+o69u@eGroups.com>
 <bqvi64+o69u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20031208032213.00941370@plum.cream.org>

At 23:29 07/12/03 , Jennifer Boggess Ramon wrote:

>Do y'all not pour any sort of syrup on your (*baked good of choice)?
>I seem to remember treacle and golden syrup being mentioned in
>various bits of Brit-lit that I read as a child, and had assumed that
>they were used in the same manner.

No, we tend not to "pour" them. We might *drizzle* syrups, treacle (or 
indeed, honey) over stuff, but generally they are used as sweeteners for 
sauces rather than as sauces in their own right. (Besides, sugar syrups 
tend to be a lot thicker than maple syrup, and as for treacle....).

I have a suspicion that the British palate in general is not quite as sweet 
as the American. For instance, the very concept of a peanut butter & jelly 
(jam) sandwich which I take it is fairly common Stateside would turn the 
stomach of most Brits.

(That said, my 6 year-old nephew's favourite sandwich is strawberry jam and 
ham, which I find quite revolting.)





From dradamsapple at yahoo.com  Mon Dec  8 04:10:05 2003
From: dradamsapple at yahoo.com (dradamsapple)
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 04:10:05 -0000
Subject: Brit. Food: Pancakes and Waffles
In-Reply-To: <bqumgv+p4du@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <br0tit+5pta@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <bboy_mn at y...> wrote:
> The subject of food (Spotted Dick) has come up in the main group
> again, and that sent me searching for Brit Food related threads in
> this group that I could refer people to.


Wow! How timely!  My DH and I were just talking about spotted 
dick . . .
Right then, on to the next food inquiry:

What in the world is 'bangers and mash'?

If this has already been discussed (which, from this group, I 
wouldn't doubt), could someone point me to the answer?

Thanks, Anna . . .(whose mother-in-law has been known to make 'Suet 
Pudding';  is this the same as Spotted Dick?)




From drednort at alphalink.com.au  Mon Dec  8 04:19:44 2003
From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately)
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 15:19:44 +1100
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Brit. Food: Pancakes and Waffles
In-Reply-To: <br0tit+5pta@eGroups.com>
References: <bqumgv+p4du@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3FD49690.18515.1ABC978@localhost>

On 8 Dec 2003 at 4:10, dradamsapple wrote:

> Wow! How timely!  My DH and I were just talking about spotted 
> dick . . .
> Right then, on to the next food inquiry:
> 
> What in the world is 'bangers and mash'?

Sausages and mashed potatos.

Yum.



Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought
Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html
(ISTJ)       | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 
"You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one
thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the 
facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be 
uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that 
need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil
Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia




From udderpd at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Dec  8 09:04:51 2003
From: udderpd at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?udder=5Fpen=5Fdragon?=)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 09:04:51 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Brit. Food: Pancakes and Waffles
In-Reply-To: <br0tit+5pta@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20031208090451.82629.qmail@web25101.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>



dradamsapple <dradamsapple at yahoo.com> wrote:
--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <bboy_mn at y...> wrote:
> The subject of food (Spotted Dick) has come up in the main group
> again, and that sent me searching for Brit Food related threads in
> this group that I could refer people to.


Wow! How timely!  My DH and I were just talking about spotted 
dick . . .
Right then, on to the next food inquiry:

What in the world is 'bangers and mash'?

If this has already been discussed (which, from this group, I 
wouldn't doubt), could someone point me to the answer?

Thanks, Anna . . .(whose mother-in-law has been known to make 'Suet 
Pudding';  is this the same as Spotted Dick?)

U_P_D

Bangers and Mash are Sausages and Mashed Potato.

Suet pudding is Spotted Dick without sultanas

Excuse my ignorance but what is your"DH"?

Regards 

Udder Pendragon 





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From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk  Mon Dec  8 09:29:41 2003
From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti)
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 09:29:41 -0000
Subject: Christmas Conjugations
Message-ID: <br1ga5+2k3t@eGroups.com>

Having spent a weekend up and down ladders, doing the tree thing, 
etc.  thought I would post a few snippets from a very amusing article 
by Craig Brown in Saturday's Daily Telegraph newspaper.

(The first para is me, though)
Back in the days when dinosaurs ruled the earth, and I was at school, 
such matters as verb conjugation WERE important because we were 
actually taught english grammar, and not only that, we learned latin 
verbs too.  And I offer the following insult that we used to say:
Sum - I am a gentleman
Es - thou art a fool
Est - he is a stinky bomb who's stinking up the school.
Childish but an educated type insult. So much more civilised than the 
probably sweary invective of today.

Craig's article takes the above further:

1.  I disapprove of rampant consumerism
    You cut back on presents
    He is a Scrooge.

2.  I break the ice
    You break the glasses
    He breaks wind.

3.  I did myself proud
    You didn't hold back
    He is a greedy pig.

4.  I greet
    You pounce
    He gropes

5.  I am childlike
    You are childish
    He is infantile.

6.  I like to add last-minute touches
    You fuss
    They panic.

7.  I am effervescent
    You are bubbly
    She is pissed 

    (In the English meaning of drunk rather that the US meaning of 
annoyed - JD)

8.  I have had one too many
    You have had one too many
    He one many had too.

9.  We discuss
    You argue
    They row.

10.  Our turkey served us well
     Your turkey kept going
     They were still eating turkey in February.

11.  Our tree is festive
     Your tree is colourful
     Their tree is common.

(Common is an english pejorative for "vulgar"- JD)

June.  Now living in festive grotto type surroundings.






From tim_regan82 at hotmail.com  Mon Dec  8 10:27:53 2003
From: tim_regan82 at hotmail.com (Tim Regan)
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 10:27:53 -0000
Subject: Feminist approach to Harry Potter College
Message-ID: <br1jn9+neki@eGroups.com>

Hi All,

--- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Announcements/message/788
--- On HPFGU-Announcements, Peg Kerr wrote:
> Below is a Call for Papers for which may be of interest to people
> on this list.  Please contact Cynthia J. Hallett directly if 
interested. 
> Her contact information is listed below.
> 
> Peg Kerr Ihinger

On Dr Hallett's resume
http://www.bennett.edu/challett/hallett.pdf
there is a tantalizing reference to the following session:

South Atlantic Modern Language Association Conference
Atlanta Chair, Special Sessions (2): 
"Serious Scholarship and Academic Hocus Pocus: Conjuring Harry 
Potter into the Canon"

Anyone know what was covered; or if any of the session's papers are 
available online?

Cheers,

Dumbledad.





From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk  Mon Dec  8 11:06:17 2003
From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti)
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 11:06:17 -0000
Subject: Brit. Food: Pancakes and Waffles
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20031208032213.00941370@plum.cream.org>
Message-ID: <br1lv9+du0o@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, GulPlum <hp at p...> wrote:
> At 23:29 07/12/03 , Jennifer Boggess Ramon wrote:
> 
>> I have a suspicion that the British palate in general is not quite 
as sweet 
> as the American. For instance, the very concept of a peanut butter 
& jelly 
> (jam) sandwich which I take it is fairly common Stateside would 
turn the 
> stomach of most Brits.
> 
> (That said, my 6 year-old nephew's favourite sandwich is strawberry 
jam and 
> ham, which I find quite revolting.)

Oh, but we can be just as sickly sweet as anybody when we put our 
minds to it:

I give you deep fried mars bars, treacle pudding, jam roly poly etc.

And I have only just cured my daughter of a most unfortunate 
addiction to wait for it - condensed milk sandwiches.

For those not in the know, condensed milk is a canned sweetened and 
thickened milk which is unpalatable to all but the sweetest of tooths.

June




From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk  Mon Dec  8 11:08:39 2003
From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti)
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 11:08:39 -0000
Subject: Brit. Food: Pancakes and Waffles
In-Reply-To: <3FD49690.18515.1ABC978@localhost>
Message-ID: <br1m3n+4hkn@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Shaun Hately" 
<drednort at a...> wrote:
> On 8 Dec 2003 at 4:10, dradamsapple wrote:
> 
> > Wow! How timely!  My DH and I were just talking about spotted 
> > dick . . .
> > Right then, on to the next food inquiry:
> > 
> > What in the world is 'bangers and mash'?
> 
> Sausages and mashed potatos.
> 
> Yum.
> 
> 
Agree totally.  Arguably one of the finest examples ever of british 
comfort food.  Even better with homemade onion gravy.  Recipe 
available to anyone who mails me off list.

This is british food with attitude.

June




From zanelupin at yahoo.com  Mon Dec  8 11:43:47 2003
From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (KathyK)
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 11:43:47 -0000
Subject: Brit. Food: Pancakes and Waffles
In-Reply-To: <br1lv9+du0o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <br1o5j+6ptd@eGroups.com>

June:

> And I have only just cured my daughter of a most unfortunate 
> addiction to wait for it - condensed milk sandwiches.

> For those not in the know, condensed milk is a canned sweetened and
> thickened milk which is unpalatable to all but the sweetest of 
tooths.

KathyK:

I used to *love* sweetened condensed milk when I was younger.  My 
parents used to put strawberries in a bowl with a biscuit as if they 
were making a strawberry shortcake-like dessert and then drizzle 
(okay, they *poured*) the condensed milk all over it.  It was 
yummy!  Especially when we had the frozen strawberries in syrup 
rather than fresh ones.  

Now the very thought of strawberries in syrup makes me shudder and 
adding the sweetened condensed milk would probably make me sick.  
But when I was a child, that was my favorite.  

Hey June, I'm trying to picture this sandwich.  Is there so much 
condensed milk on it that it drips?  Or does the bread absorb any of 
it?  Does she put anything else on it?

KathyK, now remembering that her parents also used to serve black 
olives after dinner and call it dessert and thinking she'll have to 
ask them why they did that




From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk  Mon Dec  8 12:40:28 2003
From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti)
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 12:40:28 -0000
Subject: Brit. Food: Pancakes and Waffles
In-Reply-To: <br1o5j+6ptd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <br1rfs+2nbj@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "KathyK" <zanelupin at y...> 
wrote:
> June:
> 
> > And I have only just cured my daughter of a most unfortunate 
> > addiction to wait for it - condensed milk sandwiches.
> 
> > KathyK:
>> Hey June, I'm trying to picture this sandwich.  Is there so much 
> condensed milk on it that it drips?  Or does the bread absorb any 
of 
> it?  Does she put anything else on it?
> 
These type of sandwiches are sloppy and disgusting and that I suspect 
is a good part of the attraction.  Not only do you get to squick your 
parent, but with real care and loving attention to detail you can 
make a huge mess too!

June




From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com  Mon Dec  8 15:40:01 2003
From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (IggyMcSnurd)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 09:40:01 -0600
Subject: An earworm...
Message-ID: <000001c3bda1$8ccc4f10$7297aec7@Einstein>

Iggy here:

For some reason, the address "16 Charing Cross Rd" in London popped into
my head a couple of days ago and my brain won't let it go until I figure
out why.  Since I've had no success yet, I'd like to ask all of you if
anyone knows what's at that address, if anyone knows, and if anyone can
help me figure out why it popped into my head...


Thanks

Iggy McSnurd







From erinellii at yahoo.com  Mon Dec  8 16:50:07 2003
From: erinellii at yahoo.com (erinellii)
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 16:50:07 -0000
Subject: An earworm...
In-Reply-To: <000001c3bda1$8ccc4f10$7297aec7@Einstein>
Message-ID: <br2a3v+4utv@eGroups.com>


> Iggy here:
> 
> For some reason, the address "16 Charing Cross Rd" in London popped 
into my head a couple of days ago and my brain won't let it go until 
I figure out why.  Since I've had no success yet, I'd like to ask all 
of you if anyone knows what's at that address, if anyone knows, and 
if anyone can help me figure out why it popped into my head...

Erin:
Well, this is no help probably, but I also recognize Charing Cross 
Rd.  Not sure about the 16.  Is it something from HP?  Where is the 
Ministry of Magic?  St. Mungos?  Darn, now I have to look this stuff 
up...

Erin




From annemehr at yahoo.com  Mon Dec  8 16:59:46 2003
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr)
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 16:59:46 -0000
Subject: Brit. Food: Pancakes and Waffles
In-Reply-To: <br1o5j+6ptd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <br2am2+ak7e@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "KathyK" <zanelupin at y...> wrote:
> June:
> 
> > And I have only just cured my daughter of a most unfortunate 
> > addiction to wait for it - condensed milk sandwiches.
>
 
> KathyK:
> 
> I used to *love* sweetened condensed milk when I was younger.  My 
> parents used to put strawberries in a bowl with a biscuit as if they 
> were making a strawberry shortcake-like dessert and then drizzle 
> (okay, they *poured*) the condensed milk all over it.  It was 
> yummy!  Especially when we had the frozen strawberries in syrup 
> rather than fresh ones.  

Annmehr:

When I was pregnant, I used to just eat condensed milk with a spoon. 
It was even better if I mixed a lot of unsweetened cocoa powder into
it -- then it was sort of like eating unbaked cake batter.  I told
myself my body obviously needed the calcium, but I don't know what the
sugar and cocoa could have been for.

Annemehr
who could live with black olives for dessert





From kcawte at ntlworld.com  Tue Dec  9 01:04:04 2003
From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 17:04:04 -0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] An earworm...
References: <000001c3bda1$8ccc4f10$7297aec7@Einstein>
Message-ID: <003c01c3bdf0$580a3310$a6706751@kathryn>




> Iggy here:
>
> For some reason, the address "16 Charing Cross Rd" in London popped into
> my head a couple of days ago and my brain won't let it go until I figure
> out why.  Since I've had no success yet, I'd like to ask all of you if
> anyone knows what's at that address, if anyone knows, and if anyone can
> help me figure out why it popped into my head...
>
K

Don't know why it popped into your head but a google search reveals a couple
of interesting things about the address. (see link below)

 http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CHplace.htm

It was the shop of Francis Place who was, amongst other things, a Chartist
and campaigned against the Newspaper Stamp Act and the Corn Laws. He amassed
a collection of 'revolutionary' (for want of a better word) literature (now
housed at the British Library.

It was also the first shop to have plate glass windows and now seems to
house a coin dealer.

And thank you *so* much for giving me an excuse to waste 5 minutes looking
that up :)

K




From stevejjen at earthlink.net  Mon Dec  8 18:42:40 2003
From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese)
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 18:42:40 -0000
Subject: An earworm...
In-Reply-To: <000001c3bda1$8ccc4f10$7297aec7@Einstein>
Message-ID: <br2gn0+ilfk@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "IggyMcSnurd" 
<coyoteschild at p...> wrote:
> Iggy here:
> 
> For some reason, the address "16 Charing Cross Rd" in London 
popped into
> my head a couple of days ago and my brain won't let it go until I 
figure
> out why.  Since I've had no success yet, I'd like to ask all of 
you if
> anyone knows what's at that address, if anyone knows, and if 
anyone can
> help me figure out why it popped into my head...


Well, I can't find it, but someone posted a picture of a building on 
Charing Cross Road that was supposed to be the site of the Leaky 
Cauldron (or the site used in the movie perhaps?). So it's in the 
archives here on OT chatter *somewhere*. Geoff may know. Geoff are 
you out there?

Jen




From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Mon Dec  8 18:50:48 2003
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley)
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 18:50:48 -0000
Subject: An earworm...
In-Reply-To: <br2a3v+4utv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <br2h68+u3b5@eGroups.com>

Iggy:

> > For some reason, the address "16 Charing Cross Rd" in London 
popped 
> into my head a couple of days ago and my brain won't let it go 
until 
> I figure out why.  

Erin:

> Well, this is no help probably, but I also recognize Charing Cross 
> Rd.  Not sure about the 16.  Is it something from HP?  Where is the 
> Ministry of Magic?  St. Mungos?  Darn, now I have to look this 
stuff 
> up...

The canon reference is POA, which has the Knight Bus driving along 
the Charing Cross road just before Harry is dropped off at the Leaky 
Cauldron.

As for the earworm, there was a movie with the title "# Charing Cross 
Road" (where # stands for a number, but I can't remember what it 
was).  Could that be it?

David




From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk  Mon Dec  8 19:43:12 2003
From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak)
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 19:43:12 -0000
Subject: An earworm...
In-Reply-To: <br2h68+u3b5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <br2k8g+3rg4@eGroups.com>


> Iggy:
> 
> > For some reason, the address "16 Charing Cross Rd" in London 
> >  popped into my head a couple of days ago and my brain won't let 
> > it go until I figure out why.  
David:
> As for the earworm, there was a movie with the title "# Charing 
> Cross Road" (where # stands for a number, but I can't remember 
> what it was).  Could that be it?

84 Charing Cross Road, based on the book by Helene Hanff, starring 
Anthony Hopkins and Anne Bancroft. 

This is a very charming film based on a 20 year correspondence 
between an American writer in New York and a firm of second 
hand/antiquarian booksellers in London. 

The strange thing about this gentle, tasteful, *literary* film is 
that it was produced by Mel Brooks (of totally tasteless comedy 
fame). I suspect it was simply that his wife (Anne Bancroft ) wanted 
to do it.

The reason for the odd title is that it was Ms Hanff's working 
title, and the publishers couldn't think of anything else to call 
it. 

Pip




From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk  Mon Dec  8 19:50:25 2003
From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak)
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 19:50:25 -0000
Subject: Brit. Food: Pancakes and Waffles
In-Reply-To: <br2am2+ak7e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <br2km1+eo4h@eGroups.com>


> Annmehr:
> 
> When I was pregnant, I used to just eat condensed milk with a  
> spoon. It was even better if I mixed a lot of unsweetened cocoa 
> powder into it -- then it was sort of like eating unbaked cake 
> batter.  I told myself my body obviously needed the calcium, but I 
> don't know what the sugar and cocoa could have been for.

Sugar would have been the blood sugar fluctuations (due to 
pregnancy). Cocoa would have been the extra iron your body needed.

;-)

Pip




From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk  Mon Dec  8 20:42:59 2003
From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti)
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 20:42:59 -0000
Subject: Brit. Food: Pancakes and Waffles
In-Reply-To: <br2km1+eo4h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <br2noj+ghao@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "bluesqueak" <pipdowns at e...> 
wrote:
> 
> > Annmehr:
> > 
> > When I was pregnant, I used to just eat condensed milk with a  
> > spoon. It was even better if I mixed a lot of unsweetened cocoa 
> > powder into it -- then it was sort of like eating unbaked cake 
> > batter.  I told myself my body obviously needed the calcium, but 
I 
> > don't know what the sugar and cocoa could have been for.
> 
> Sugar would have been the blood sugar fluctuations (due to 
> pregnancy). Cocoa would have been the extra iron your body needed.
> 
> ;-)
> 
> Pip

See it's good for you!!!

June




From astratrf at aol.com  Mon Dec  8 22:02:21 2003
From: astratrf at aol.com (astratrf)
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 22:02:21 -0000
Subject: a family of fans
Message-ID: <br2sdd+quev@eGroups.com>

Hi, all!
I mostly  lurk, but I wanted to share a some observations from 
my family. It's only fair, since I did get them to read the books, 
see the movies, and now they're (nearly) as fascinated as I am!
My DH caught the obvious Monty Python references (Cockroach 
clusters?  As if 2 different people would come up with that one!).
He asked  if I had  read anything about JKR being a Rolling 
Stones fan as well;  he noticed that the two oldest Weasley boys 
(just like the two oldest rolling Stones!) are Bill and Charlie!
The other comment was from my son, who, on hearing about 
HPfGU's various "alley" -named sections, asked if muggles buy 
their school stuff at "Norm Alley"!
Cutups one and all!
Back to lurking.  Thanks for reading.
-Astra




From jfaulkne at sas.upenn.edu  Mon Dec  8 22:17:46 2003
From: jfaulkne at sas.upenn.edu (Jen Faulkner)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 17:17:46 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] a family of fans
In-Reply-To: <br2sdd+quev@eGroups.com>
References: <br2sdd+quev@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0312081706460.16774@mail2.sas.upenn.edu>

On Mon, 8 Dec 2003, astratrf wrote:

> I mostly  lurk, but I wanted to share a some observations from
> my family. It's only fair, since I did get them to read the books,
> see the movies, and now they're (nearly) as fascinated as I am!
> My DH caught the obvious Monty Python references (Cockroach
> clusters?  As if 2 different people would come up with that one!).
> He asked  if I had  read anything about JKR being a Rolling
> Stones fan as well;  he noticed that the two oldest Weasley boys
> (just like the two oldest rolling Stones!) are Bill and Charlie!
> The other comment was from my son, who, on hearing about
> HPfGU's various "alley" -named sections, asked if muggles buy
> their school stuff at "Norm Alley"!
> Cutups one and all!

Hi, Astra!

Your family sounds delightful!  And what a cute comment from your son!
:)

My mom and brother have always been very supportive and nice about my
fannish interests, gotten my posters or other such things for whatever
fandom I was in at the time.  But they're not fannish themselves (well,
my brother is, but he makes a point of never, ever being in a fandom
with me *g*).

I don't know what I'd do if my gf weren't fannish -- to me, there's
nothing more fun than sharing fannish interests with a SO.  My gf gets
my references, she's interested when I tell her about discussions going
on on HPfGU, we can plan fanfics or songvids together... :)

And I've always enjoyed my fannish friendships in a special way the
mundane ones can't quite reach -- I adore my friends who aren't fans,
but sometimes they look at me funny. *g*  (Since they're my friends,
they accept that I'm going to spend half an hour telling them about the
most recent episode of Smallville, or whatever, though.)  It's so
invigorating to have an evening with the fannish friends.  The online
fannish communities approximate that feeling -- and certainly make it
easier to communicate with other fen! -- but they don't duplicate it,
quite, for me...

What do others think?  Particularly those of you who're fannish in
general, have you ever had a relationship work out with a non-fannish
peep?  How many of us are dating other HP fans? :)

And welcome, Astra!  Don't be afraid to keep not lurking! :)

--Jen :)

* * * * * *
Jen's HP fics:
http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~jfaulkne/fan/hp.html
Snapeslash listmom: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/snapeslash
Yes, I *am* the Deictrix.



From kcawte at ntlworld.com  Tue Dec  9 09:40:27 2003
From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 01:40:27 -0800
Subject: FILK idea/challenge
Message-ID: <002c01c3be41$1ff44640$a6706751@kathryn>

So I don't write FILKs (and have too many half-finished fics.bunnies lying around to start) but I had this idea ... why do I get the sinking feeling this may be something every FILKer in existence has said at some point? Uh yeah, anyway, it's 1:30 here and there's nothing on TV so I'm listening to VH1 Classic and they just played "The Boys Are Back in Town" by Thin Lizzy and I kept getting flashes of Remus and Sirius around the time of PoA. Then there's a line something like "Do you remember that time at Johnnie's place, this chick got up and slapped Johnnie's face" and this *annoying* little voice in my head said 'you know if you changed Johnnie to Jamie they could be talking about Lily'. Help. Can someone tell me if anyone has done a HP FILK for this song before and if not - please someone go ahead, because I'm not going to and you can't make me! *pouts* I am *not* going to FILK, I'm not, never, not me .... uh help, please?

K
"The Loudest Noise Comes From The Electric Minerva."

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Tue Dec  9 03:26:55 2003
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 03:26:55 -0000
Subject: FILK idea/challenge
In-Reply-To: <002c01c3be41$1ff44640$a6706751@kathryn>
Message-ID: <br3fdv+qa60@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Kathryn Cawte" <kcawte at n...> 
wrote:

Uh yeah, anyway, it's 1:30 here and there's nothing on TV so I'm 
listening to VH1 Classic and they just played "The Boys Are Back in 
Town" by Thin Lizzy and I kept getting flashes of Remus and Sirius 
around the time of PoA. Then there's a line something like "Do you 
remember that time at Johnnie's place, this chick got up and slapped 
Johnnie's face" and this *annoying* little voice in my head said 'you 
know if you changed Johnnie to Jamie they could be talking about 
Lily'. Help. Can someone tell me if anyone has done a HP FILK for 
this song before 

This song is not currently represented in the archives of HPF's 1300 
filks. It may appear on Fiction Alley's Rhythm and Rhyme, or on 
ff.net's Poetry corner. 

and if not - please someone go ahead, because I'm not going to and 
you can't make me! *pouts* I am *not* going to FILK, I'm not, never, 
not me .... uh help, please?
> 

OK, Mavens, go for it!

    - CMC

HARRY POTTER FILKS 
http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm 





From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Tue Dec  9 03:30:55 2003
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 03:30:55 -0000
Subject: An earworm...
In-Reply-To: <br2k8g+3rg4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <br3flf+q0go@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "bluesqueak" <pipdowns at e...> 
wrote:
>and a firm of second 
> hand/antiquarian booksellers in London. 
> 
> The strange thing about this gentle, tasteful, *literary* film is 
> that it was produced by Mel Brooks (of totally tasteless comedy 
> fame). I suspect it was simply that his wife (Anne Bancroft ) 
wanted 
> to do it.

Well, Mel also produced the 1980 John Hurt vehicle The Elephant Man, 
but didn't allow his name in the credits - he correctly reasoned that 
people would expect a comedy from any movie that was closely 
associated with him.

   - CMC ("Hope for the best/Expect the worst/You could be Tolstoy/Or 
Fannie Hurst")







From lupinesque at yahoo.com  Tue Dec  9 06:06:49 2003
From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 06:06:49 -0000
Subject: FILK idea/challenge
In-Reply-To: <br3fdv+qa60@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <br3opp+fflt@eGroups.com>

CMC wrote:

> OK, Mavens, go for it!

Yes, you have a moral duty to save Kathryn from the Black Hole!

K, I've been there and all I can say is . . . . RUN!  Cover your 
ears, slam your writing hand in the oven door, superglue your piano 
cover shut, but whatever it takes, DON'T WRITE THAT FIRST FILK.  
They're addictive!  They should be deemed a controlled substance! 

I slid halfway into the pit, myself, and lived to tell the tale, but 
the only thing that stopped the slide was a ridiculously busy real-
life schedule, I fear I am only in a state of remission and that the 
urge will return full force as soon as things slow down.

Amy Z




From lupinesque at yahoo.com  Tue Dec  9 06:26:09 2003
From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 06:26:09 -0000
Subject: Mape Syrup/Pancakes
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20031207200700.00941370@plum.cream.org>
Message-ID: <br3pu1+q5li@eGroups.com>

GulPlum wrote:
 
> The point I was trying to make is that the expense is secondary to 
the fact 
> that maple syrup is simply foreign to European culinary tradition 
(and, 
> perhaps more importantly, our palates). 

However, it's one of the greatest substances the human palate can 
experience, so IMO the real stuff is worth the expense.  (Which is 
high even in syrup-producing areas.)  I have a gallon in my fridge 
and use it in hot cereal as well as on pancakes.

Amy Z
no longer in Vermont, and not being paid by the Maple Producers 
Association




From gwendolyngrace at yahoo.com  Tue Dec  9 13:42:29 2003
From: gwendolyngrace at yahoo.com (Gwen)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 05:42:29 -0800 (PST)
Subject: HPEF Issues Open Call for 2006 Bids
Message-ID: <20031209134229.33846.qmail@web13504.mail.yahoo.com>

For immediate release

December 9, 2003

HP Education Fanon, Inc., the organization behind
Nimbus - 2003 and its sequel, The Witching Hour,
issues an open call for bids to host a 2006 event.

HP Education Fanon, HPEF for short, is an educational
organization whose primary mission is to provide
educational symposia on J.K. Rowling's Harry Potter
novels for fans, as well as scholars of the novels.
HPEF's first event, Nimbus  2003, took place in
Orlando, Florida July 17 - 20, 2003; six hundred
attendees enjoyed presentations by more than eighty
speakers, including Judith Krug, director of the
Office for Intellectual Freedom at the American
Library Association. Its second event, The Witching
Hour, will be held October 6-11, 2005, in Salem,
Massachusetts.

For their third event, HPEF strongly desires a
location west of the Rockies. Because of Internal
Revenue Service considerations (since HPEF is a
501(c)3 non-profit entity), HPEF prefers locations
within the United States for 2006 as well. Potential
bid teams should contact the Board of Directors at
HPEF @ yahoogroups.com (no spaces) with: the name(s)
of the Committees Executive Chair(s), contact
information for that person(s), and the proposed
location of the event (if known) as soon as they have
determined they wish to bid. Please use the subject
line, Interest in 2006 Bid in your email.

It should be noted that a team is already working on a
bid for Las Vegas for 2006. This team is considered a
strong candidate for the event, but by no means are
other teams barred from putting together an entry.
Anyone interested in contacting the Las Vegas team to
help or volunteer may contact their Executive Chair,
Deb McLain, at debmclain @ yahoo.com, no spaces. 

The deadline for submissions of bids for the 2006
event will be February 15, 2004.







From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com  Tue Dec  9 14:10:33 2003
From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (IggyMcSnurd)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 08:10:33 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-Feedback] Re: ADMIN: Possible Threat to the HPFGU Family of Lists
In-Reply-To: <1070925629.208BE724@s29.dngr.org>
Message-ID: <000001c3be5e$3a99b120$99ee79a5@Einstein>

Iggy here:

Sorry for those who read this a few times because I'm posting it to all
the lists in this family of groups, but I feel that it's important
enough that I want to make sure everyone gets this letter...

I would like to point something out, folks.  

People are wondering what someone could possibly use against these
groups to have them eliminated... and it was also mentioned that
incidents such as sex with minors has been used against groups, even if
it's implied.

We need to eliminate (at least for the time being) the topic about the
sexual temptations of Harry Potter (a minor) and especially eliminate
topic titles such as "In Bed With Harry Potter."  Since we know that
Yahoo has a history of not investigating claims against groups, even the
titles have the potential to get the groups deleted if Yahoo chooses to
take them as a violation of their terms.

This is not stating that we need censorship... not by a long shot.  But
if someone is threatening the groups, common sense dictates that we try
to hold off on any topics/theories/language that can be potentially used
against the group... and the above named threads are prime examples of
ones we need to avoid for now...

Hoping everyone understands where I'm coming from here...

Iggy McSnurd







From stevejjen at earthlink.net  Tue Dec  9 14:14:45 2003
From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese)
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 14:14:45 -0000
Subject: HPEF Issues Open Call for 2006 Bids
In-Reply-To: <20031209134229.33846.qmail@web13504.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <br4lcl+noaj@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Gwen <gwendolyngrace at y...> 
wrote:
> For their third event, HPEF strongly desires a
> location west of the Rockies. Because of Internal
> Revenue Service considerations (since HPEF is a
> 501(c)3 non-profit entity), HPEF prefers locations
> within the United States for 2006 as well. 


It seems like I remember talk of a convention in the UK, possibly 
Summer 2005. Since it wouldn't be sponsored by HPEF, given their 
constraints, is there another convention being planned?

Jen, hoping for a UK convention to plan her summer 2005 vacation 
around.




From heidilist at tandys.org  Tue Dec  9 15:11:34 2003
From: heidilist at tandys.org (Heidi Tandy)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 07:11:34 -0800
Subject: [HPFGU-Feedback] Re: ADMIN: Possible Threat to the HPFGU Family of Lists
In-Reply-To: <000001c3be5e$3a99b120$99ee79a5@Einstein>
References: <000001c3be5e$3a99b120$99ee79a5@Einstein>
Message-ID: <1070982912.206379DF@s5.dngr.org>

Iggy, I understand what you're trying to get at here, but I'm not sure 
that there's any way to make the list completely devoid of 'risky' 
topics. Apart from the fact that 16, which Harry is just after the end 
of ootp, is the age of consent in the UK, there are a number of other 
topics that could theoretically be problematic - and, of course, even 
FILKing could be seen not as commentary & criticism on the books, which 
all the filkers who've posted here on feedback have sensibly argued, but 
as copyright infringement - which they should not be under Us law, but 
given Yahoo's notoriety for not investigating, I don't think it would be 
much of a help.

Basically, if someone wanted to get the hpfgu groups tossed, even though 
we listees and the admins try *so* hard to stick to the Yahoo rules and 
the yahoogroups guidelines, those guidelines are a lot vaguer than one 
may assume.

I mean, look at tbay. We *know* it's play. We know it's fiction and 
nobody means the assaults seriously. But the first thing in Yahoo's 
guidelines says that you may not harrass, abuse, threaten or advocate 
violence against individuals or groups. What if someone complained to 
Yahoo that a Big Bang Destroyer had come after her on the main list? 
Would that violate Guideline #1?

Based on Guideline #9, discussion of sexual matters should only be 
considered proscribed if it's in a sexual or exploitative context. I 
haven't followed the whole of the threads, but I don't think those 
discussions meet either of those criteria.

I think the question is, do we want to be paranoid, or do we want to 
just make sure we have something in place to continue the community if 
Yahoo looks at something and sees a violation where one was never 
intended.

Heidi


On Tue, 9 Dec 2003 9:13am, IggyMcSnurd wrote:
> Iggy here:
>
> Sorry for those who read this a few times because I'm posting it to all
> the lists in this family of groups, but I feel that it's important
> enough that I want to make sure everyone gets this letter...
>
> I would like to point something out, folks.
>
> People are wondering what someone could possibly use against these
> groups to have them eliminated... and it was also mentioned that
> incidents such as sex with minors has been used against groups, even if
> it's implied.
>
> We need to eliminate (at least for the time being) the topic about the
> sexual temptations of Harry Potter (a minor) and especially eliminate
> topic titles such as "In Bed With Harry Potter."  Since we know that
> Yahoo has a history of not investigating claims against groups, even 
> the
> titles have the potential to get the groups deleted if Yahoo chooses to
> take them as a violation of their terms.
>
> This is not stating that we need censorship... not by a long shot.  But
> if someone is threatening the groups, common sense dictates that we try
> to hold off on any topics/theories/language that can be potentially 
> used
> against the group... and the above named threads are prime examples of
> ones we need to avoid for now...
>
> Hoping everyone understands where I'm coming from here...
>
> Iggy McSnurd
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> HPFGU-Feedback-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



From jwcpgh at yahoo.com  Tue Dec  9 17:30:51 2003
From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh)
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 17:30:51 -0000
Subject: [HPFGU-Feedback] Re: ADMIN: Possible Threat to the HPFGU Family of Lists
In-Reply-To: <000001c3be5e$3a99b120$99ee79a5@Einstein>
Message-ID: <br50sb+jomb@eGroups.com>

> Iggy here:
<snip> 
> We need to eliminate (at least for the time being) the topic about 
the sexual temptations of Harry Potter (a minor) and especially 
eliminate topic titles such as "In Bed With Harry Potter."  Since we 
know that Yahoo has a history of not investigating claims against 
groups, even the titles have the potential to get the groups deleted 
if Yahoo chooses to take them as a violation of their terms.
> 
> This is not stating that we need censorship... not by a long 
shot.  But if someone is threatening the groups, common sense 
dictates that we try to hold off on any topics/theories/language 
that can be potentially used against the group... and the above 
named threads are prime examples of ones we need to avoid for now...

Laura:

Nonsense. I'm really annoyed that you would even suggest such a
thing. This is, after all, a list for adults. I think we self-
censor quite adequately.

Moreover, if the admins have something to say to us, I think they
know how to say it. If you're talking with the authority of an
admin, please say so. Otherwise, I'd appreciate not being told what
to do by you.





From erinellii at yahoo.com  Tue Dec  9 17:36:41 2003
From: erinellii at yahoo.com (erinellii)
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 17:36:41 -0000
Subject: My dream- a chance for NEW CANON!
Message-ID: <br5179+op95@eGroups.com>

About a week ago, I had a dream.  It was a very detailed and 
continuous dream, which is unusual for me.  And it was about Harry 
Potter, also unusual for me..

In my dream, my best friend announced out of the blue that her mother 
knew someone in the government who had gotten us tickets to the next 
HP reading J. K. Rowling, author of Harry Potter, was doing in the 
United States.

We went, and after the actual reading (which was rather skipped over 
in the dream), I and a group of other people got to meet JKR and were 
given the opportunity to ask questions.  I asked (thinking of my 
Evill!Bill theory) if there were any more names that were anagrams in 
the series.  

JKR said yes.

I asked if we would ever see Florence from the fourth book again.

JKR said yes.

At this point my dream remembrance gets kind of blurry.  I was in a 
crowd of people, reporters and little kids and adults like me who had 
gotten special passes backstage.  I was deliriously happy because I'd 
gotten answers to two questions that had been plaguing HPfGU for so 
long.  I thought about asking if Bill would be the spy in the Order, 
but then was scared she'd laugh and say no, and my chance to have two 
years of fun with my original theory would be gone.  And then 
thought, well, if it's right (or even sounded plausible to her) she 
wouldn't answer anyway, just say, "I can't tell you that, sorry".  
And then I thought-- btw, I did way more clear-headed thinking and 
reasoning here than I do in most of my dreams, which was one reason I 
knew this dream was important-- I thought, if Evil!Bill IS right, and 
I guess it, she'll probably be slightly angry.  Isn't there an 
interview where she says she wouldn't like it if someone guessed the 
answer?  So I decided not to ask.

Well, I was still in the dream-crowd, and had gotten 2 questions 
answered, and knew that was more than most of the crowd had managed, 
but was desperate to talk to JKR one more time.  Just as an innocuous 
enough question popped into my head, JKR announced that she had to go 
now, she had a flight to catch early the next morning.  As she was 
trying to make her way from the room, I screamed at her, "Ms. 
Rowling! (pronouncing it correctly)  Please, Ms. Rowling, is it 
possible that Arthur Weasley was a victim of the Imperius curse 
during the first war with Voldemort?!"

She turned and looked at me.  And smiled.  And said "Hmmm."

I couldn't tell if the answer was yes and she was trying to decide 
whether or not to reveal it, or if she just thought that was a really 
good idea and was briefly contemplating ways of working it into the 
story.  But that "hmmm" was all she said.  After that, she turned and 
walked away.

The dream skipped forward several hours, and I was returning to the 
hotel room, and my best friends mom said "I'm surprised you're not at 
the airport right now."  

I asked why, and she explained that J.K. Rowling had been impressed 
with the last question I asked her and had invited me to a tour she 
was giving of her home in London, England this weekend.  (Yes, I know 
she really lives in Scotland, and would never do this, but my dream-
self didn't.)

My best friend hadn't told me because she thought I couldn't afford a 
plane ticket.  I know she would never do this to me in RL, but in the 
dream it was a horrible betrayal which hurt a whole lot.   I rushed 
to the airport and made it in time.  

The dream skipped to JKR's house, which was sort of like an ancient 
Roman one, with huge arches and marble everywhere.  Again, I was part 
of a crowd following JKR around as she took us on a tour.  I tried to 
ask her a couple more questions, but she was too busy trying to lead 
the tour, so I asked if I could write down stuff the fans wanted to 
know and if she would maybe try to answer them in future books, and 
she gave her consent.

Well, I didn't have any paper with me, but I did have a permanent 
marker and this big hand-sewn quilt or afghan that I had been 
planning to give JKR as a gift.  So the whole rest of the dream I was 
walking around with the tour trying to write questions on the afghan 
in such a way that they sort of followed its pattern and didn't 
totally deface it.  I've forgotton most of them, but do remember the 
ones I wrote as the tour wound to an end in a huge indoor pool room 
set up to look like the Roman baths.  I had to scribble frantically 
to write "How old are Mr.and Mrs. Weasley and Bill and Charlie?" 
and "Where did Lupin live at the end of Goblet of Fire?

****************************************

And that was  the end of the salient part of the dream.  It was a 
pretty cool dream, so I remembered it, but didn't think it meant 
anything until just 2 days ago, when I was looking at the Leaky 
cauldron for news I'd missed lately, and came upon a piece of news 
that said JKR would be participating in a web chat on March 4th.

Did everyone catch that?

JKR WILL BE PARTICIPATING IN A WEB CHAT ON MARCH 4TH!!!!!!!!!

Do you guys see how exciting this is?  This is our chance!  Our 
chance to get mysteries solved that have been bugging some of us for 
years.  HPfGU as a group has got to be on that chat!  

We will be the ones who aren't asking stupid questions like "Is it 
true that you wrote the first book on napkins in a local cafe? 
or "How's your new baby?"

We can ask stuff like whether the pensieve is totally objective, 
whether Mark Evans will be important in the next book, the ages of 
the elder Weasleys, whether Hagrid was the assistant to Og the former 
gamekeeper for a while before he took over, all the good stuff.

We have got to be on that chat in force so that at least some of us 
will be able to get through!  I've been trying to find out what needs 
to be done, but there's not much about how to participate up yet. 

I thought, in the meantime, maybe we could think of some more good 
questions to ask.  The thing is, if we ask stuff like "Is Dumbledore 
going to die?" or "Will Harry and Ginny hook up?" she won't answer, 
and we need to keep that in mind.  We should take this as an 
opportunity to ask the little questions that have been niggling us, 
not the big burning ones that are gonna get answered in the end 
anyway.

So, who wants to start? I'll be keeping track of these, so hopefully 
by March we'll have a big long list of good questions that will 
clarify the way the WW works for us.

Erin 





From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Tue Dec  9 17:51:32 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 17:51:32 -0000
Subject: ADMIN: Possible Threat to the HPFGU Family of Lists
In-Reply-To: <br50sb+jomb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <br5234+2bh1@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" <jwcpgh at y...> wrote:
> > Iggy here:
> ...<snip>...
> > > 
> > This is not stating that we need censorship... not by a long 
> shot.  But if someone is threatening the groups, common sense 
> dictates that we try to hold off on any topics/theories/language 
> that can be potentially used against the group... and the above 
> named threads are prime examples of ones we need to avoid for now...

> 
> Laura:
> 
> Nonsense. I'm really annoyed that you would even suggest such a
> thing. This is, after all, a list for adults. I think we self-
> censor quite adequately.
> 
> Moreover, if the admins have something to say to us, I think they
> know how to say it. If you're talking with the authority of an
> admin, please say so. Otherwise, I'd appreciate not being told what
> to do by you.


bboy_mn:

Well, I'll let Iggy speak of himself, but I think you missed the
point. Whether we are adults or not is irrelevant. When Yahoo recieves
a complaint they don't waste any time investigating it. Mostly
because, given the many thousands of groups they host, they don't have
time to investigate. 

So, a user or a group can be removed for the slightest provocation; no
explanation, no hearing, no trial, and NO APPEALS. 

Given that is is so easy to remove a group, that Yahoo does very
little to investigate, and offers no recourse or appeal; it's best not
 to offer them anything that could even remotely be twisted into
something improper.

I also don't think that Iggy was proposing this as standard
operational procedure; only as a precaution while a preceived threat
exists.

Just a thought.

bboy_mn





From msbeadsley at yahoo.com  Tue Dec  9 17:55:57 2003
From: msbeadsley at yahoo.com (msbeadsley)
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 17:55:57 -0000
Subject: [HPFGU-Feedback] Re: ADMIN: Possible Threat to the HPFGU Family of Lists
In-Reply-To: <br50sb+jomb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <br52bd+nreo@eGroups.com>

> > Iggy here:
<snip> 
> > We need to eliminate (at least for the time being) the topic 
> > about the sexual temptations of Harry Potter (a minor) and 
> > especially eliminate topic titles such as "In Bed With Harry 
> > Potter."
<snip>

> Laura:
> Nonsense. I'm really annoyed that you would even suggest such a
> thing. This is, after all, a list for adults. I think we self-
> censor quite adequately.
> 
> Moreover, if the admins have something to say to us, I think they
> know how to say it. If you're talking with the authority of an
> admin, please say so. Otherwise, I'd appreciate not being told what
> to do by you.


(Hi, Laura! Hi, Iggy!)

I think Iggy was suggesting. I also think it didn't sound like Iggy 
was suggesting. I think Iggy might have been in that mode I've been 
resisting since ADMIN put out that message, which was the "Ohmigod we 
gotta *do something, right now*, let's mobilize" mode. And yeah, 
there was some "take charge" to his attitude (underlined by the 
multiplicity with which he expressed it), which I think was also 
fueled by worry and concern.

While I appreciate ADMIN's sharing this information, I think it's 
stressful (for most of us) to know that there's a threat to the 
list/s out there. Maybe we all should (and I'm SUGGESTING here) 
consider our content a bit more carefully in light of recent 
info...not so much for content which could be construed as contrary 
to Yahoo! guidelines (which, IMO, may closing the barn door after the 
cow's left the building and found the corn), but for how reactive we 
are allowing ourselves to be.

Sandy, glad she flame-proofed her soapbox a while back




From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com  Tue Dec  9 18:00:37 2003
From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (IggyMcSnurd)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 12:00:37 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: ADMIN: Possible Threat to the HPFGU Family of Lists
In-Reply-To: <br5234+2bh1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000201c3be7e$6028cff0$6b35d843@Einstein>

>bboy_mn:
>
>Well, I'll let Iggy speak of himself, but I think you missed the
>point. Whether we are adults or not is irrelevant. When Yahoo receives
>a complaint they don't waste any time investigating it. Mostly
>because, given the many thousands of groups they host, they don't have
>time to investigate. 

*remainder snipped*

Iggy here:

I think you summed up the intent pretty well, bboy...

Another way of phrasing my letter (in its simplest form) is:

"Let's not willingly stick our heads out of the foxhole while there's a
sniper in the area."


Iggy McSnurd






From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Tue Dec  9 18:16:27 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 18:16:27 -0000
Subject: Real Magic on the Movie Set. -Extended
In-Reply-To: <bqqap3+gdbq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <br53hr+sdrt@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <bboy_mn at y...> wrote:
> If you read the-Leaky-Cauldron.org then you already know this, but I
> found it very interesting that the Prisoner of Azkaban is the first HP
> movie to hire a real magician as a consultant for the movie.
> 
> See also - Paul Kieve - World Famous Magician -
> http://www.stageillusion.com/home.html#
> 
> ...edited...
> 
> bboy_mn


bboy_mn:

Here is a link, to an extended article on the magician who taught
magic to our favorite wizards-

http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/0300whatson/0400theatre/content_objectid=13694515_method=full_siteid=50061_page=1_headline=-A%2Dwizard%2Dperformance-name_page.html

ALternate:
http://tinyurl.com/yg4y

It seems that Daniel was not involved in the original 'on the set'
magic classes, something he was very miffed about. So the magician
began give Daniel private tutoring in stage magic, something Daniel
appears to be becoming very skilled at.

For those who doubted the need for stage magic, you will find
references to many stage plays the incorportated stage magic into the
show; includign Scrooge, the stage version of 'The Invisible Man', and
 many others.

Just a thought.

bboy_mm





From lhuntley at fandm.edu  Tue Dec  9 18:17:59 2003
From: lhuntley at fandm.edu (Laura Ingalls Huntley)
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 13:17:59 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] ADMIN: Possible Threat to the HPFGU Family of Lists
In-Reply-To: <br0h1e+msht@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <0528AB0B-2A74-11D8-B422-000A95E29F3E@fandm.edu>

I have a few things to say in response to Iggy's call for 
self-censorship.

Honestly, the "Spirit" of HPfGU does not lie within our massive 
archives.  It lies with the current posters and threads, in the 
discussions that are happening *now*.  If we let this crisis restrict 
those discussions - if we censor ourselves - we are actually, IMHO, 
allowing the situation to do *real* damage to our community.

I'm not saying it wouldn't be a dire day indeed if the list were to be 
deleted.  I'm just saying that to let the mere *threat* of deletion 
hamper our everyday posting habits would have a similar negative impact 
on HPfGU. We can't let that happen, IMO.

As Heidi pointed out, if someone really wants to report us for a 
violation, they can find *something*.  At this point, all we can do is 
protect what's *important* - and that's the community we have built 
here at HPfGU.

But it will only be for a few ______, you say?  A few *what*, I ask.  
Days? Weeks? Months?  Who's to say when the threat has actually passed? 
  Who's to say what will happen to our group dynamic after a long period 
of listies being afraid to post what's on their minds?

So, what's my advice?  Ignore it - it least in the sense of not letting 
it affect our posting habits on-list.  The elves are no doubt working 
hard on the issue, so let them do their job.  *Our* job is to maintain 
the quality and freedom of discussion that makes HPfGU what it is.

Laura (who is not to be confused with the *other* Laura. *waves at 
other Laura*)




From kcawte at ntlworld.com  Wed Dec 10 02:25:08 2003
From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 18:25:08 -0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: ADMIN: Possible Threat to the HPFGU Family of Lists
References: <br5234+2bh1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <004201c3bec4$d54d0d50$a6706751@kathryn>


>
> bboy_mn:
>
> Well, I'll let Iggy speak of himself, but I think you missed the
> point. Whether we are adults or not is irrelevant. When Yahoo recieves
> a complaint they don't waste any time investigating it. Mostly
> because, given the many thousands of groups they host, they don't have
> time to investigate.
>
K

And therein lies the flaw in Iggy's plan. yahoo have a habit of deleting
groups *without checking*. It doesn't matter whether the thread mentioned is
active, inactive or never existed in the first place. *They don't check*. If
I thought they would have a look at the group when they got a complaint -
then it *might* be a good suggestion (although I think closing down threads
that don't violate any rules just because someone could interpret them that
way is pointless and a good way to kill any interesting discussion), however
yahoo have a nasty habit of getting a complaint and *assuming* it's valid
and then going ahead and deleting lists - and btw when they do so they
delete *all* lists owned by the owner of the 'offending' list. Except of
course in the cases where they ignore complaints totally and do nothing.
*shrugs* uh yeah where I was going with that last bit is - are all the
HPfGUs lists listed under the same owner? Because at least if they weren't
there wouldn't be as much chance of them *all* suddenly vanishing due to a
malicious complaint.

Yahoo management are somewhat capricious in their decisions.

K




From stevejjen at earthlink.net  Tue Dec  9 20:22:27 2003
From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese)
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 20:22:27 -0000
Subject: My dream- a chance for NEW CANON!
In-Reply-To: <br5179+op95@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <br5au3+qdqp@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "erinellii" <erinellii at y...> 
wrote:
> <snipped fascinating dream sequence!> 
> And that was  the end of the salient part of the dream.  It was a 
> pretty cool dream, so I remembered it, but didn't think it meant 
> anything until just 2 days ago, when I was looking at the Leaky 
> cauldron for news I'd missed lately, and came upon a piece of news 
> that said JKR would be participating in a web chat on March 4th.
> 
> Did everyone catch that?
> 
> JKR WILL BE PARTICIPATING IN A WEB CHAT ON MARCH 4TH!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Do you guys see how exciting this is?  This is our chance!  Our 
> chance to get mysteries solved that have been bugging some of us 
for 
> years.  HPfGU as a group has got to be on that chat!  
> 
<snip> 
> I thought, in the meantime, maybe we could think of some more good 
> questions to ask.  The thing is, if we ask stuff like "Is 
Dumbledore 
> going to die?" or "Will Harry and Ginny hook up?" she won't 
answer, 
> and we need to keep that in mind.  We should take this as an 
> opportunity to ask the little questions that have been niggling 
us, 
> not the big burning ones that are gonna get answered in the end 
> anyway.


Erin,

You're on to something here, Erin! You already came up with quite a 
few questions that I'd like to see answered, like the ages of the 
Weasley parents, whether Hagrid worked with Og, and whether the 
Pensieve is objective. Here are some others that might be small 
enough to answer:

1) Lupin had a bag with Professor R.J. Lupin stamped on it--where 
was he a Professor before Hogwarts and what does his middle initial 
stand for?

2) Is Godric's Hollow in Wales?

3) Do the color of Lily's eyes matter specifically, or is it just 
that she and Harry have the "same eyes" that matters ?(OK, wishful 
thinking on that one!)

4) Is Andromeda Tonks still alive?

That's all I can think of at the moment!

Jen, thinking Erin's dream was pretty cool and must mean *something*.




From heidilist at tandys.org  Tue Dec  9 20:35:52 2003
From: heidilist at tandys.org (Heidi Tandy)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 12:35:52 -0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: My dream- a chance for NEW CANON!
In-Reply-To: <br5au3+qdqp@eGroups.com>
References: <br5au3+qdqp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <1071002157.75F0B9F@w37.dngr.org>

Unfortunately, from what's been disclosed about the chat so far, she's 
going to be given questions in advance, created entirely by British 
schoolchildren. Doesn't sound like we'l be able to get a word in 
edgewise.


On Tue, 9 Dec 2003 3:27pm, Jen Reese wrote:
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "erinellii" <erinellii at y...>
> wrote:
>>  <snipped fascinating dream sequence!>
>>  And that was  the end of the salient part of the dream.  It was a
>>  pretty cool dream, so I remembered it, but didn't think it meant
>>  anything until just 2 days ago, when I was looking at the Leaky
>>  cauldron for news I'd missed lately, and came upon a piece of news
>>  that said JKR would be participating in a web chat on March 4th.
>>
>>  Did everyone catch that?
>>
>>  JKR WILL BE PARTICIPATING IN A WEB CHAT ON MARCH 4TH!!!!!!!!!
>>
>>  Do you guys see how exciting this is?  This is our chance!  Our
>>  chance to get mysteries solved that have been bugging some of us
> for
>>  years.  HPfGU as a group has got to be on that chat!
>>
> <snip>
>>  I thought, in the meantime, maybe we could think of some more good
>>  questions to ask.  The thing is, if we ask stuff like "Is
> Dumbledore
>>  going to die?" or "Will Harry and Ginny hook up?" she won't
> answer,
>>  and we need to keep that in mind.  We should take this as an
>>  opportunity to ask the little questions that have been niggling
> us,
>>  not the big burning ones that are gonna get answered in the end
>>  anyway.
>
>
> Erin,
>
> You're on to something here, Erin! You already came up with quite a
> few questions that I'd like to see answered, like the ages of the
> Weasley parents, whether Hagrid worked with Og, and whether the
> Pensieve is objective. Here are some others that might be small
> enough to answer:
>
> 1) Lupin had a bag with Professor R.J. Lupin stamped on it--where
> was he a Professor before Hogwarts and what does his middle initial
> stand for?
>
> 2) Is Godric's Hollow in Wales?
>
> 3) Do the color of Lily's eyes matter specifically, or is it just
> that she and Harry have the "same eyes" that matters ?(OK, wishful
> thinking on that one!)
>
> 4) Is Andromeda Tonks still alive?
>
> That's all I can think of at the moment!
>
> Jen, thinking Erin's dream was pretty cool and must mean *something*.
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
>
> ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________
>
> Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the group's Admin 
> Files!
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/
>
> Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from 
> posts to which you're replying!
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



From annemehr at yahoo.com  Tue Dec  9 21:16:10 2003
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr)
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 21:16:10 -0000
Subject: My dream- a chance for NEW CANON!
In-Reply-To: <1071002157.75F0B9F@w37.dngr.org>
Message-ID: <br5e2q+stb2@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Heidi Tandy <heidilist at t...>
wrote:
> Unfortunately, from what's been disclosed about the chat so far, she's 
> going to be given questions in advance, created entirely by British 
> schoolchildren. Doesn't sound like we'l be able to get a word in 
> edgewise.

Annemehr:
That was also the impression I got.  Perhaps she is going to be much
more careful about giving any more clues outside the books now that
we're so near the end.  I hope that's the case; I felt that I would
rather have read OoP the first time without knowing someone important
was going to die.

Still, it doesn't hurt to have some good, answerable questions ready,
just in case!  Hey, Dumbledad! You have British schoolchildren, right?
 LOTS of people on this list have British schoolchildren!  So I am
adding to the list (just in case anyone's British schoolchildren would
like to ask any of them <g>):
> 
> 
> On Tue, 9 Dec 2003 3:27pm, Jen Reese wrote:

> > Erin,
> >
> > You're on to something here, Erin! You already came up with quite a
> > few questions that I'd like to see answered, like the ages of the
> > Weasley parents, whether Hagrid worked with Og, and whether the
> > Pensieve is objective. Here are some others that might be small
> > enough to answer:
> >
> > 1) Lupin had a bag with Professor R.J. Lupin stamped on it--where
> > was he a Professor before Hogwarts and what does his middle initial
> > stand for?
> >
> > 2) Is Godric's Hollow in Wales?
> >
> > 3) Do the color of Lily's eyes matter specifically, or is it just
> > that she and Harry have the "same eyes" that matters ?(OK, wishful
> > thinking on that one!)
> >
> > 4) Is Andromeda Tonks still alive?
> >
Annemehr:

5) In GoF, did Fudge say "I've heard of a curse scar acting as an
alarm bell before," or did he say "I've never heard of a curse scar
acting as an alarm bell before?"

Dang!  That's all I could come up with that I'd be willing to hear the
answer to (or that JKR would be willing to tell)!

Annemehr

P.S. Erin -- JKR does have some sort of home in London, I believe.  So
your dream's even better!  




From cwood at tattersallpub.com  Tue Dec  9 21:26:44 2003
From: cwood at tattersallpub.com (mstattersall)
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 21:26:44 -0000
Subject: Real Magic on the Movie Set. -Extended
In-Reply-To: <br53hr+sdrt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <br5emk+ltmq@eGroups.com>

> For those who doubted the need for stage magic, you will find
> references to many stage plays the incorportated stage magic into 
the
> show; includign Scrooge, the stage version of 'The Invisible Man', 
and
>  many others.
> 
> Just a thought.
> 
> bboy_mm

I've seen "Godspell" onstage many times by many stage companies, and 
at the end the "Jesus" character is always vanished. I understand 
that when you pay the fees to produce this play, you receive detailed 
instructions on how to do this, and you have to sign a waiver not to 
reveal how it was done. Has anyone ever been in "Godspell" who can 
confirm this?
Ms.Tattersall




From heidilist at tandys.org  Tue Dec  9 22:51:26 2003
From: heidilist at tandys.org (Heidi Tandy)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 14:51:26 -0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Real Magic on the Movie Set. -Extended
Message-ID: <1071010537.1CDE5EC7@r5.dngr.org>

William poundstone's Big Secrets books describe a lot of stage magic 
with some instructional detail. I know vaguely how to saw a woman in 
half, vanish an elephant and put steel through steel, all through his 
books. You can find them via Amazon - and get some interesting secret 
recipes at the same time!

Heidi


On Tue, 9 Dec 2003 5:29pm, mstattersall wrote:
>>  For those who doubted the need for stage magic, you will find
>>  references to many stage plays the incorportated stage magic into
> the
>>  show; includign Scrooge, the stage version of 'The Invisible Man',
> and
>>   many others.
>>
>>  Just a thought.
>>
>>  bboy_mm
>
> I've seen "Godspell" onstage many times by many stage companies, and
> at the end the "Jesus" character is always vanished. I understand
> that when you pay the fees to produce this play, you receive detailed
> instructions on how to do this, and you have to sign a waiver not to
> reveal how it was done. Has anyone ever been in "Godspell" who can
> confirm this?
> Ms.Tattersall
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
>
> ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________
>
> Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the group's Admin 
> Files!
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/
>
> Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from 
> posts to which you're replying!
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



From erinellii at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 10 01:51:09 2003
From: erinellii at yahoo.com (erinellii)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 01:51:09 -0000
Subject: My dream- a chance for NEW CANON!
In-Reply-To: <1071002157.75F0B9F@w37.dngr.org>
Message-ID: <br5u6d+v0ia@eGroups.com>

 Heidi  wrote:
> Unfortunately, from what's been disclosed about the chat so far, 
she's  going to be given questions in advance, created entirely by 
British  schoolchildren. Doesn't sound like we'l be able to get a 
word in edgewise.

Erin:
Here's a couple paragraphs from Bloomsbury's website:

"Readers across the world will have the opportunity to chat online 
with JK Rowling when she launches the second World Book Day Online 
Festival on Thursday 4th March.

The bestselling author will talk to children about her books, her 
writing and the kind of books she likes to read.  And during the 
chat, JK Rowling will answer twelve special questions from the 
winners of the Festival competition open to all UK schools."  


That sounds to me as if, though she has promised to answer 12 
questions from British schoolchildren, the rest of us have a fair 
crack at it also.  Here are the questions we have so far:

1) Lupin had a bag with Professor R.J. Lupin stamped on it--where
was he a Professor before Hogwarts and what does his middle initial
stand for?

2) Is Godric's Hollow in Wales? 

3) Do the color of Lily's eyes matter specifically, or is it just
that she and Harry have the "same eyes" that matters?

4) Is Andromeda Tonks still alive?

5) In GoF, did Fudge say "I've heard of a curse scar acting as an
alarm bell before," or did he say "I've never heard of a curse scar
acting as an alarm bell before?"

(I need some clarification on this one. My copy clearly says "never 
heard"  Are other copies different or something?  I must have missed 
this question on the main list if so.)

6) How old are Mr. and Mrs. Weasley and Bill and Charlie?

7) Are there any more names in the series that are intentional 
anagrams of anything?

8) Will we ever find out who the Florence was that Bertha Jorkins 
mentioned in the 4th book, or who she was kissing?

9) Will Mark Evans (the ten-year-old Dudley beats up at the beginning 
of OoP) show up in the next book at all?

10) Where does Lupin live when Dumbledore tells Sirius to "lie low at 
Lupin's" during the end of GoF?

11) Any chance Arthur Weasley was a victim of the Imperius curse 
during Voldemort's first rise to power?


So come on, everyone, what else would you like to know???

Erin




From annemehr at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 10 04:13:57 2003
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 04:13:57 -0000
Subject: My dream- a chance for NEW CANON!
In-Reply-To: <br5u6d+v0ia@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <br66i5+rkla@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "erinellii" <erinellii at y...>
wrote:
Here are the questions we have so far:
> 
> 1) Lupin had a bag with Professor R.J. Lupin stamped on it--where
> was he a Professor before Hogwarts and what does his middle initial
> stand for?
> 
> 2) Is Godric's Hollow in Wales? 
> 
> 3) Do the color of Lily's eyes matter specifically, or is it just
> that she and Harry have the "same eyes" that matters?
> 
> 4) Is Andromeda Tonks still alive?
> 
> 5) In GoF, did Fudge say "I've heard of a curse scar acting as an
> alarm bell before," or did he say "I've never heard of a curse scar
> acting as an alarm bell before?"
> 
> (I need some clarification on this one. My copy clearly says "never 
> heard"  Are other copies different or something?  I must have missed 
> this question on the main list if so.)
***************
Apparently, the UK editions don't have the word "never."
***************
> 
> 6) How old are Mr. and Mrs. Weasley and Bill and Charlie?
> 
> 7) Are there any more names in the series that are intentional 
> anagrams of anything?
> 
> 8) Will we ever find out who the Florence was that Bertha Jorkins 
> mentioned in the 4th book, or who she was kissing?
> 
> 9) Will Mark Evans (the ten-year-old Dudley beats up at the beginning 
> of OoP) show up in the next book at all?
> 
> 10) Where does Lupin live when Dumbledore tells Sirius to "lie low at 
> Lupin's" during the end of GoF?
> 
> 11) Any chance Arthur Weasley was a victim of the Imperius curse 
> during Voldemort's first rise to power?
> 
> 
> So come on, everyone, what else would you like to know???
> 
> Erin

I remembered more!

12) Does Albus Dumbledore actually *like* Cockroach Clusters?  Because
Harry seems to think his passwords are things he likes. -- or is this
one too silly?

13) Do "evanesco" and "scourgify" make things cease to exist or just
go somewhere else?

14) How did Dumbledore know what made Voldemort stop possessing Harry?

Annemehr
who actually does not like question #9 and would rather just find out
by reading the next book




From daz at dazgreen.f9.co.uk  Tue Dec  9 20:47:54 2003
From: daz at dazgreen.f9.co.uk (darren)
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 20:47:54 -0000
Subject: Hello
Message-ID: <br5cdq+rl2e@eGroups.com>

just saying Hi iv just found this group so iv got a bit or reading 
to find out whats going on

my names Darren im from the uk and im 28
i am a dislexic so my spelling and grammer arn't great i have 
enjoyed reading the 5 hp books + the 4 books in the Psychic Serpent  
SERIES. and im trying to make them in to a audio book for people 
like me who find reading hard

if anyone would like to help with the books you can goto 
http://psychic-serpent.co.uk/

ps can anyone recomend some more good hp fanfic books that i can 
download as pdfs





From mphunt at sprintmail.com  Wed Dec 10 14:03:24 2003
From: mphunt at sprintmail.com (Tracy Hunt)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 14:03:24 -0000
Subject: My dream- a chance for NEW CANON!
In-Reply-To: <br66i5+rkla@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <br793c+8270@eGroups.com>

<SNIP Erinellii's 11 great questions & her call for more questions>

<SNIP Annemehr's 3 great questions>

Annemehr
> who actually does not like question #9 and would rather just find 
out
> by reading the next book



Tcy:

I'm one of those strange birds who only has 2 questions she wishes to 
have answered outside of the text of the 7 books:

1)  Will all of our questions be answered in the books?

2)  When will book 6 be released?

Tcy
(returning to her nest to await the answers to her 2 special 
questions - but who will probably be listening intently to anything 
JKR says regarding HP)




From erinellii at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 10 15:47:04 2003
From: erinellii at yahoo.com (erinellii)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 15:47:04 -0000
Subject: My dream- a chance for NEW CANON!
In-Reply-To: <br793c+8270@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <br7f5o+sskp@eGroups.com>


 
> Annemehr:
> > who actually does not like question #9(Mark Evans) and would 
rather just find out by reading the next book

Erin:
Aw, jeez, Annemehr, would you really?  I tried to purposely leave it 
vague both so we'd have a chance of her answering it and so as not to 
spoil the fun.  You, know, "will we see Mark Evans in the next book" 
as opposed to "is Mark a relative of Lily's" or "will Mark, who was 
ten, be starting at Hogwarts next year?"

Personally, I'm about sick of the Mark Evans questions, and would 
like to prevent his becoming a Florence (having grand, elaborate 
theories spun around him only to have him _not_even_show_up_.) I'd 
much prefer he be a Mrs. Figg (we know he's gonna be there so at 
least we have a tiny basis for speculation). Florence was such a 
letdown, if we at least knew Mark *would* be there I could take 
another year and a half of theories on him, and even join in happily.

The real reason I don't like Mark, I guess, is because he always 
seems to lead back to those crazy "Petunia is a squib" theories.  
Those drive me nuts!  No basis in canon AT ALL.

Hmmm, maybe that should be a question; "any chance Petunia was a 
squib or Mr. and Mrs. Evans, Harry's grandparents, were squibs?"
 

> Tcy:
> 
> I'm one of those strange birds who only has 2 questions she wishes 
to have answered outside of the text of the 7 books:
> 
> 1)  Will all of our questions be answered in the books?
>
> 2)  When will book 6 be released?


Erin:  
That's not too strange, you just prefer to rely on Faith, which I 
understand.  

To the first question, I would say no.  We've dreamed up such wild 
theories here that there's no way she could possibly address them 
all.  One that leaps immediately to mind is "were Sirius and Lupin 
lovers?"  Unless it turns out that Lupin has been married all this 
time, I doubt that one will ever be addressed.  And even if he was, 
it could still be argued.... It needs a definite yes or no that we 
will never get.

To the second question, I'd say, feel free to ask, but don't expect 
her to answer...

But don't be disappointed if one of the 12 British schoolchildren 
beats you to it, either.  This is one of those big questions that I 
was trying to avoid putting on the list because we'll find it out 
anyway in the long run.  (I briefly comptemplated putting "I'm a 
little girl with big brown eyes, what's the title of book six, 
please?" as a question, but rejected it for the same reasons)

I'm not listing the list each time, but I do have it saved on my 
computer and am adding Annemehr's new questions. 

Erin





From RSFJenny19 at aol.com  Wed Dec 10 18:03:49 2003
From: RSFJenny19 at aol.com (Jenny)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 18:03:49 -0000
Subject: My dream- a chance for NEW CANON!
In-Reply-To: <br5179+op95@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <br7n65+5lcv@eGroups.com>

Erin wrote:

<We have got to be on that chat in force so that at least some of us
will be able to get through! I've been trying to find out what needs
to be done, but there's not much about how to participate up yet.

I thought, in the meantime, maybe we could think of some more good
questions to ask.>

Jenny here:

The questions I most desperately want answered by JKR are the ones 
I'm afraid will never come out in the books and aren't necessarily 
relevant to the next two books, because I don't want spoilers.   
Questions like:

1) What houses were James, Sirius, Lupin and Peter in? (wouldn't you 
*love* to end those endless discussions here about this???)

2)...<is embarassingly drawing a blank now>...

Well, I'll get back to you with more! :)

~Jenny





From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Wed Dec 10 18:21:57 2003
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 18:21:57 -0000
Subject: Clothes
Message-ID: <br7o85+hetr@eGroups.com>

Dear all,

I wanted to let you know that I am no longer part of the admin team 
as I stood down a few days ago.  This standing down is not connected 
to the recent announcement about a threat to the lists.

I intend to remain active on the public HPFGU lists - indeed this 
was the main reason for stepping down as I was finding that 
engagement with administrative issues was leaving me out of touch 
with the lists: always a risky position to get oneself into.

My apologies for taking a few days to mention this: I had been 
hoping to construct this post in TBAY form but reading the Feedback 
list has led me to believe that many of you might not read it and I 
wanted to reach as wide an audience as possible.

Also, it's always more fun to manufacture some silliness about 
gnomes than to compose a post like this.

My best wishes to the admin team as they continue to work for the 
good of the HPFGU lists.

David




From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Wed Dec 10 18:31:27 2003
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 18:31:27 -0000
Subject: My dream- a chance for NEW CANON!
In-Reply-To: <br7f5o+sskp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <br7opv+2bgb@eGroups.com>

> > Annemehr:
> > > who actually does not like question #9(Mark Evans) and would 
> rather just find out by reading the next book
> 
> Erin:
> Aw, jeez, Annemehr, would you really?  I tried to purposely leave 
it 
> vague both so we'd have a chance of her answering it and so as not 
to 
> spoil the fun.  You, know, "will we see Mark Evans in the next 
book" 
> as opposed to "is Mark a relative of Lily's" or "will Mark, who 
was 
> ten, be starting at Hogwarts next year?"

Interesting question.  I suspect that if the answer to the Evans 
question (will we meet him in a future book?) is 'yes' then JKR may 
well feel that the question is best left unanswered, because 'yes' 
is almost certainly then a clue.

If the answer is 'no', then she may feel it's OK to answer, but that 
leads to the situation where fans can deduce that 'I'm not telling 
you' means 'yes', when many questions of this type are being asked.  
JKR is IMO smart enough to realise this, and since the way to deal 
with it is to say 'I'm not telling you' whatever the actual answer 
is, that's what I think we'd get.

My question is

"Did Stan Shunpike go to Hogwarts?"

So, what type of question do people prefer?  Ones that anticipate 
later books, or ones that try to discover things likely to remain 
outside the books?

David, who thinks HPFGU members have a bat in hell's chance of 
asking, let alone getting answers to, these questions in the chat




From joym999 at aol.com  Wed Dec 10 20:08:35 2003
From: joym999 at aol.com (joywitch_m_curmudgeon)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 20:08:35 -0000
Subject: Clothes
In-Reply-To: <br7o85+hetr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <br7ug3+un0v@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "davewitley" 
<dfrankiswork at n...> wrote:
> I wanted to let you know that I am no longer part of the admin team 
> as I stood down a few days ago.  

Welcome to the Necropolis and Oldage Home for Exhausted Listelves and 
Poltergeists, David.  Pull up a rocking chair and join us on the 
porch.  We've got several betting pools going -- which of the current 
admin team will be the next to have a nervous breakdown, explode in 
rage, implode in frustration, be taken out on a stretcher, etc.

Help yourself to a drink -- there's pumpkin juice, coffee, puree of 
annoying children and gasoline.  And please sign up for our 3,297 
part seminar, "By Who and For Whom -- Preposition Changes in the 
American Editions."

It's a pleasure to be here, isn't it?

--Joywitch, retiringly




From Ali at zymurgy.org  Wed Dec 10 21:57:11 2003
From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 21:57:11 -0000
Subject: Clothes
In-Reply-To: <br7ug3+un0v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <br84rn+voed@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "joywitch_m_curmudgeon" 
<joym999 at a...> wrote:

  We've got several betting pools going -- which of the current 
> admin team will be the next to have a nervous breakdown, explode 
in rage, implode in frustration, be taken out on a stretcher, etc.
 
> Help yourself to a drink -- there's pumpkin juice, coffee, puree 
of  annoying children and gasoline. 

Ali replies:-

Err, I don't do rage very well (except towards my nearest and 
dearest, oh and a few ex-bosses who *really* deserved it), and 
everytime I get near imploding life seems too short to bother -
really! I don't think that stretchers would be very comfortable, so 
that just leaves the nervous breakdown; hmmn...

Seriously, I'm just pleased to see you guys around and I dig your 
choice of clothes - so much more fetching than the tea towels you 
used to wear.

Ali, who's just been watching a weird British comedy programme and 
is afraid that the weirdness might have rubbed off, and is of course 
speaking only for herself.




From fc26det at aol.com  Wed Dec 10 23:40:02 2003
From: fc26det at aol.com (Potterfanme)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 23:40:02 -0000
Subject: Clothes
In-Reply-To: <br84rn+voed@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <br8asi+7bb8@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Ali" <Ali at z...> wrote:
> Seriously, I'm just pleased to see you guys around and I dig your 
> choice of clothes - so much more fetching than the tea towels you 
> used to wear.
> 
> Ali, who's just been watching a weird British comedy programme and 
> is afraid that the weirdness might have rubbed off, and is of 
course 
> speaking only for herself.

Giggles!  Just figured out the reference to clothes!  Duh!!

Susan--obviously having a very blonde day!




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Wed Dec 10 22:45:27 2003
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 22:45:27 -0000
Subject: FILK idea/challenge
In-Reply-To: <br3opp+fflt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <br87m7+uknd@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Amy Z" <lupinesque at y...> 
wrote:
> CMC wrote:
> 
> > OK, Mavens, go for it!
> 
> Yes, you have a moral duty to save Kathryn from the Black Hole!
> 
> K, I've been there and all I can say is . . . . RUN!  Cover your 
> ears, slam your writing hand in the oven door, superglue your piano 
> cover shut, but whatever it takes, DON'T WRITE THAT FIRST FILK.  
> They're addictive!  They should be deemed a controlled substance! 

Addictive? What utter rot!  I can quit anytime I want to - really....

> I slid halfway into the pit, myself, and lived to tell the tale, 
but 
> the only thing that stopped the slide was a ridiculously busy real-
> life schedule, I fear I am only in a state of remission and that 
the 
> urge will return full force as soon as things slow down.

I'll keep my fingers crossed that things slow soon!!

  - CMC






From annemehr at yahoo.com  Thu Dec 11 05:33:38 2003
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 05:33:38 -0000
Subject: My dream- a chance for NEW CANON!
In-Reply-To: <br7opv+2bgb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <br8vji+lnhp@eGroups.com>

> > > Annemehr:
> > > > who actually does not like question #9(Mark Evans) and would 
> > rather just find out by reading the next book
> > 
> > Erin:
> > Aw, jeez, Annemehr, would you really?  I tried to purposely leave 
> it 
> > vague both so we'd have a chance of her answering it and so as not 
> to 
> > spoil the fun. 

Annemehr:
Yeah, sorry, Erin!  Of course, I know perfectly well that there will
be plenty of "what will happen in 6 and 7" questions in that chat, and
I know even better that I'll be reading every word of it.  I'll just
be hoping that some really good questions will be asked, and that JKR
will be cagey where she needs to be.  So, don't take any questions off
your list on my account!

Dave:
> So, what type of question do people prefer?  Ones that anticipate 
> later books, or ones that try to discover things likely to remain 
> outside the books?
> 
> David, who thinks HPFGU members have a bat in hell's chance of 
> asking, let alone getting answers to, these questions in the chat

Annemehr:
I like the second kind.  Like:

How do children from wizarding families learn reading and writing and
maths before they get to Hogwarts?  (Dave's Stan Shunpike question
reminded me of that one)

Annemehr:
who notes that the bats are usually going *out* of hell at high
speeds, and that it's the snowballs that have chances in hell
commensurate with ours of getting a question onto the chat




From erinellii at yahoo.com  Thu Dec 11 06:43:51 2003
From: erinellii at yahoo.com (erinellii)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 06:43:51 -0000
Subject: My dream- a chance for NEW CANON!
In-Reply-To: <br7opv+2bgb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <br93n7+ln5u@eGroups.com>

David: 
  I suspect that if the answer to the Evans 
> question (will we meet him in a future book?) is 'yes' then JKR may 
> well feel that the question is best left unanswered, because 'yes' 
> is almost certainly then a clue.
> 
> If the answer is 'no', then she may feel it's OK to answer, but 
that  leads to the situation where fans can deduce that 'I'm not 
telling you' means 'yes', when many questions of this type are being 
asked.  JKR is IMO smart enough to realise this, and since the way to 
deal with it is to say 'I'm not telling you' whatever the actual 
answer is, that's what I think we'd get.

Erin:
First off, congrats on the "clothes"!  Hope to see you having lots of 
fun on the lists now!

I agree that JKR is certainly smart enough, but I also think that she 
will probably have anticipated this question, and be ready to 
say "well spotted" or some such.  I doubt any vital plot secrets hang 
on Mark, or at least not any that can be given away merely by 
confirming that he *will* be in the next book.  And, if she says no, 
then I won't have to hear about him for another year and a half, yay!

David:
  So, what type of question do people prefer?  Ones that anticipate 
> later books, or ones that try to discover things likely to remain 
> outside the books?

For the purposes of the chat, I'd have to say the second, things that 
might otherwise remain outside the books.  On the lists, my favorite 
thing is to speculate.  

Someone on the feedback list recently brought up in the Tbay thread 
the question of what would happen to the lists after the publication 
of the seventh book.  For me, it will be over.  I'll hang around for 
a few weeks for closure, perhaps, but for me, the fun lies totally in 
the speculation.  I'm not interested in literary analysis of the 
mirror of Erised like some here are.  

 I *would* absolutely hate for a slip-up to happen and JKR to give it 
all away, so I favor the smaller questions; the ones that deal with 
how the world works and if they touch on future subjects do so only 
on small points, not "the heart of it all".  Those are the only kind 
I'm accepting on the list I'm keeping, which I hope to get a webpage 
for closer to March!

 David, who thinks HPFGU members have a bat in hell's chance of 
> asking, let alone getting answers to, these questions in the chat

Erin:
But see, this is really the whole point of my post!  I envision all 
of us working together to try and get in, sharing informatiom about 
what we have to do, possibly hundreds of us armed with sensible, 
intelligent questions. A group effort.  Surely some of us are bound 
to get through!  If we even got one or two questions answered, I 
would be SO happy!


David: 
> "Did Stan Shunpike go to Hogwarts?"

Erin:
Duly noted and entered.  This is not a burning question for me, so I 
had a moment's desire to reject it, but I must stick to my criteria 
and remember other people have different interests.  I have seen it 
debated on the list, and it is relevant and not nearly important 
enough to get an "I'm not telling" response.

Annemehr:
How do children from wizarding families learn reading and writing and
maths before they get to Hogwarts? (Dave's Stan Shunpike question
reminded me of that one)

Erin:
It's in there!

Jenny: 
>>1) What houses were James, Sirius, Lupin and Peter in? (wouldn't you
*love* to end those endless discussions?)

Erin:
YES!  Yes, I would!  What an excellent question! That one goes in 
there with "any chance Petunia was a squib?" and "Is the Pensieve 
totally objective?", lol!

 
Erin (who is hoping JKR answers "Gyffindor", "no" and "yes" to those 
last three)




From szwecsam at hotmail.com  Thu Dec 11 14:28:27 2003
From: szwecsam at hotmail.com (szwecsam)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 14:28:27 -0000
Subject: really need your help!!!
Message-ID: <br9uub+mp4q@eGroups.com>

Hi everyone!
My name is Samantha, I am a Harry Potter fan as well and moreover I 
am a student at the London Metropolitan University for a MA in Mass 
communications.Actually I have a survey to conduct about the adults 
fan of Harry Potter and I was wondering if it would be possible to 
have a chat with some of you, parents or not(I need both!!!)to share 
your points of view and permitt me to gather the data I need.
I hope to hear from you very soon!!!





From tim_regan82 at hotmail.com  Thu Dec 11 14:39:19 2003
From: tim_regan82 at hotmail.com (Tim Regan)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 14:39:19 -0000
Subject: Coming of age in the WW
Message-ID: <br9vin+mngj@eGroups.com>

Hi All,

--- In HPforGrownups, GulPlum wrote:
> To complete the picture, here's what (real) British
> law permits at various ages in the place of any 
> unified "coming of age". 

> 12 is the minimum age to:
> See a '12' rated film 
> 15 is the minimum age to:
> See a '15' rated film;

Is this true ? or only true of cinemas? If I let my kids (who are 8 
and 10) watch at film rated 12 with me at home, am I breaking the 
law?

> 16 is the minimum age to:
> Drink alcohol in a pub as long as you don't buy it at the bar;

I didn't know this ? you mean all that effort I put into trying to 
look 18 was needless? Also, what's the minimum age for drinking 
alcohol at home with parental consent?

> 17 is the minimum age to:
> Marry without parental permission;

I thought that was 16 with permission and 18 without?

Cheers,

Dumbledad






From foxmoth at qnet.com  Thu Dec 11 14:54:35 2003
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 14:54:35 -0000
Subject: My dream- a chance for NEW CANON!
In-Reply-To: <br93n7+ln5u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <bra0fb+po4u@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "erinellii" 
<erinellii at y...> wrote:
> Jenny: 
> >>1) What houses were James, Sirius, Lupin and Peter in? 
(wouldn't you
> *love* to end those endless discussions?)
> 
> Erin:
> YES!  Yes, I would!  What an excellent question! That one goes 
in 
> there with "any chance Petunia was a squib?" and "Is the 
Pensieve  totally objective?", lol!


I suspect that the Marauders question is relevant to the plot 
(imagine how Harry would feel if Sirius turns out to have been a 
Slyth), and that the reason she's avoided it up to now is to 
escape having to give any kind of answer, even a cagey one. 

 Which is why I think my burning question, "Will Harry ever meet 
any vampires?" will be ignored. But please add it to the list.

Pippin
"Snape is part vampire. Is. Is. Is."





From erinellii at yahoo.com  Thu Dec 11 19:38:27 2003
From: erinellii at yahoo.com (erinellii)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 19:38:27 -0000
Subject: My dream- a chance for NEW CANON!
In-Reply-To: <bra0fb+po4u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <brah3j+g9t8@eGroups.com>

Pippin:
 > I suspect that the Marauders question is relevant to the plot 
> (imagine how Harry would feel if Sirius turns out to have been a 
> Slyth), and that the reason she's avoided it up to now is to 
> escape having to give any kind of answer, even a cagey one. 
> 
>  Which is why I think my burning question, "Will Harry ever meet 
> any vampires?" will be ignored. But please add it to the list.
> 
> Pippin
> "Snape is part vampire. Is. Is. Is."

Erin:
THAT was the other question I was thinking of the other night!  
Thanks, Pippin!  And that was exactly the way I was going to phrase 
it too.  Cause you can't just ask "Is Snape a vampire?", she wouldn't 
answer if he is....

Only... what are you going to do if she says no? ;-)


Will you explain to me the part-vampire thing again?  I think he's 
full or nothing.  

Erin




From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Thu Dec 11 23:16:55 2003
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 23:16:55 -0000
Subject: Hell's bells!
In-Reply-To: <br8vji+lnhp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <bratt7+cdu1@eGroups.com>

> Annemehr:
> who notes that the bats are usually going *out* of hell at high
> speeds, and that it's the snowballs that have chances in hell
> commensurate with ours of getting a question onto the chat

Do you know, I think I must have had snowballs in the belfry that 
day.

David, who may have been thinking about cats




From fakeplastikcynic at hotmail.com  Fri Dec 12 00:59:30 2003
From: fakeplastikcynic at hotmail.com (Martha)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 00:59:30 -0000
Subject: Coming of age in the WW
In-Reply-To: <br9vin+mngj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <brb3ti+8p5g@eGroups.com>

Gulplum:
> > 16 is the minimum age to:
> > Drink alcohol in a pub as long as you don't buy it at the bar;

Dumbledad:
> I didn't know this ? you mean all that effort I put into trying to 
> look 18 was needless? Also, what's the minimum age for drinking 
> alcohol at home with parental consent?

Martha:
I don't know about in bars - but I'm almost certain that you can 
drink alcohol (and smoke tobacco) in your own home with parental 
consent from the age of four. Yes, that's *four*. Someone correct me 
if I'm wrong about this, just so I don't end up in BIG trouble 
if/when I have kids of my own!

~ Martha (who finally bought herself an advent calendar!)




From fakeplastikcynic at hotmail.com  Fri Dec 12 01:01:01 2003
From: fakeplastikcynic at hotmail.com (Martha)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 01:01:01 -0000
Subject: Coming of age in the WW
In-Reply-To: <br9vin+mngj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <brb40d+7hh3@eGroups.com>

Gulplum:
> > 16 is the minimum age to:
> > Drink alcohol in a pub as long as you don't buy it at the bar;

Dumbledad:
> I didn't know this ? you mean all that effort I put into trying to 
> look 18 was needless? Also, what's the minimum age for drinking 
> alcohol at home with parental consent?

Martha:
I don't know about in bars - but I'm almost certain that you can 
drink alcohol (and smoke tobacco) in your own home with parental 
consent from the age of four. Yes, that's *four*. Someone correct me 
if I'm wrong about this, just so I don't end up in BIG trouble 
if/when I have kids of my own!

~ Martha (who finally bought herself an advent calendar!)




From stevejjen at earthlink.net  Thu Dec 11 22:26:05 2003
From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 22:26:05 -0000
Subject: Yahoo Wins Again!
Message-ID: <braqtt+ft9a@eGroups.com>

Is everyone having trouble getting posts through today? I'm 
wondering if it's because I check the list at the website and post 
from there, rather than through e-mail. It's two hours and counting 
now!

Jen, wanting to vent even though she doubts this will go through




From kcawte at ntlworld.com  Fri Dec 12 10:36:35 2003
From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 02:36:35 -0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Yahoo Wins Again!
References: <braqtt+ft9a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <004001c3c09b$d157ec50$a6706751@kathryn>

I've been having that problem all week, but it's getting worse. Today is
definitely the slowest. Maybe there's more traffic in the run up to Xmas -
or maybe I'm just making excuses for a service which seems to randomly
deliver messages just to annoy people :)

K
"The Loudest Noise Comes From The Electric Minerva."


> Is everyone having trouble getting posts through today? I'm
> wondering if it's because I check the list at the website and post
> from there, rather than through e-mail. It's two hours and counting
> now!
>
> Jen, wanting to vent even though she doubts this will go through
>
> >




From bumbledor at charter.net  Fri Dec 12 02:33:13 2003
From: bumbledor at charter.net (Bumbledor)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 21:33:13 -0500
Subject: eagle owls in Britian, r they a threat?
Message-ID: <000501c3c058$4adcdf70$6501a8c0@mac>

Are eagle owls settling in Britain?

Ian Sample
Thursday December 11, 2003
The Guardian

Yes, but not in big numbers. Reports this week claimed that a number of
eagle owls had escaped from zoos on the continent and flown here to set up
home. But it is more likely they escaped or were released from homes and
aviaries in Britain.
Eagle owls (above), which have a wingspan just shy of two metres, are the
biggest in the world, dwarfing Britain's most common owl, the tawny, which
has a wingspan half the size. Experts suspect that the north of England and
the Scottish Highlands were home to a number of eagle owls that were brought
to the country in the 18th century only to escape into the wild. They were
wiped out when game-rearing estates started shooting them for taking their
birds.

Malcolm Ogilvie of the RSPB's rare breeding birds panel says there is at
least one breeding pair of eagle owls (known as Bubo Bubo after the deep
hooting sound they make) in the north. Since 1996, the pair have given birth
to 15 babies. One pair of owls is unlikely to trigger a burgeoning
population though, since fertility between the siblings is likely to be low.
It would take a second pair for the species to gain a foothold in Britain,
says Ogilvie, who estimates there are about 20 in the country.

Tony Warburton, director of the World Owl Trust, puts the growth in eagle
owl numbers down to the "Kes effect" after the 1969 Ken Loach film about a
boy who had a pet kestrel. The film spurred people's interest in keeping
birds of prey, he says, and since then there's been Harry Potter. "It
started with kestrels, but what could be better than walking into a pub with
the biggest owl in the world on your arm?" he says. The problem, he says, is
that people who bought eagle owls as pets soon realised they were hard to
handle and either lost or released them.

The arrival of eagle owls in Britain is not necessarily to be celebrated,
because they are so indiscriminate about the animals they prey on, says
Ogilvie. "They are voracious predators that will eat just about anything,"
he says. "We should be very wary because of the impact they can have, and
there's reason to believe it could be seriously bad."






From lhuntley at fandm.edu  Fri Dec 12 05:07:43 2003
From: lhuntley at fandm.edu (Laura Ingalls Huntley)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 00:07:43 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] This is me aging.
In-Reply-To: <br8vji+lnhp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <1E51B98C-2C61-11D8-A524-000A95E29F3E@fandm.edu>

Well, it is now officially My Birthday.

God, I hate getting older.

Laura

P.S. Considering how depressing birthdays are at 19, I don't think I'll 
be able to take it at 30 or 40.  Am I too old for a nice comfy 
treehouse in Neverland?

P.P.S. Sorry for the dismal nature of this message, it's just that I 
feel compelled to complain to *someone*, and all my dormmates just roll 
their eyes at me when I start.

P.P.P.S. And I know you're all rolling your eyes at me too, but I can't 
*see* it, which makes all the difference. ^_~




From dradamsapple at yahoo.com  Fri Dec 12 06:26:53 2003
From: dradamsapple at yahoo.com (dradamsapple)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 06:26:53 -0000
Subject: This is me aging.
In-Reply-To: <1E51B98C-2C61-11D8-A524-000A95E29F3E@fandm.edu>
Message-ID: <brbn3d+t85s@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Laura Ingalls Huntley 
<lhuntley at f...> wrote:
> Well, it is now officially My Birthday.
> 
> God, I hate getting older.
> 
> Laura
> 
> P.S. Considering how depressing birthdays are at 19, I don't think 
I'll 
> be able to take it at 30 or 40.  Am I too old for a nice comfy 
> treehouse in Neverland?
> 
>
Happy Birthday!!
But, 19???  Sweetie, I've got clothes in my closet older than you.
(and that aint no joke!)
Nineteen was one of my favorite ages.  I can't remember why just now 
but I know it was. You're young, and free, and young, and can do 
whatever you want, and young.  Uh, ok. I'll stop now...
Anyway, don't get discouraged.  We've all been there and survived!
And a treehouse would be great!! But, Neverland?  Uh, I think we can 
find a better forest to build that treehouse!
Anyway, I'm finally getting sleepy... must take advantage...
Hope all your birthday wishes come true!

Anna . . . 




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Fri Dec 12 05:43:34 2003
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 05:43:34 -0000
Subject: part vampires and Re: My dream- a chance for NEW CANON!
In-Reply-To: <brah3j+g9t8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <brbki6+ifnc@eGroups.com>

Pippin:
> >  Which is why I think my burning question, "Will Harry ever 
meet  any vampires?" will be ignored. But please add it to the 
list.<<
  
> Erin:
> THAT was the other question I was thinking of the other night!  
> Thanks, Pippin!  And that was exactly the way I was going to 
phrase  it too.  Cause you can't just ask "Is Snape a vampire?", 
she wouldn't  answer if he is....
> 
> Only... what are you going to do if she says no? ;-)

Have a nice plate of crow--if the H/H shippers have any left <veg>

 Erin:
> Will you explain to me the part-vampire thing again?  I think 
he's  full or nothing.  <

There are part-vampires in both folklore and literature. In Jewish 
legend vampire spirits could take human form long enough to 
impregnate a woman or seduce a man. There are half-vampires 
in the role playing game Masquerade and in the anime movie 
series Vampire Hunter D. 

In Rowling's world we have already met  part giants and a part 
Veela. They  appear human but have attenuated characteristics 
of the non-human parent. A part vampire would presumably be 
much the same; recognizably human but with some traces of the 
other species, such as a nasty disposition, talent for the Dark 
Arts,  an affinity with bats, a preference for low light, and superb  
mind powers. 

Pippin




From koukla_es at yahoo.es  Fri Dec 12 08:58:22 2003
From: koukla_es at yahoo.es (neith_seshat)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 08:58:22 -0000
Subject: This is me aging.
In-Reply-To: <1E51B98C-2C61-11D8-A524-000A95E29F3E@fandm.edu>
Message-ID: <brbvve+ibv7@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Laura Ingalls Huntley 
<lhuntley at f...> wrote:
> Well, it is now officially My Birthday.

If it's December 12th, it's mine as well. So, Happy birthday!!

Unfortunately, I'm 10 years older, so I should be more depressed: In 
my case, being the youngest at the office, no complains are 
allowed  ;-).

Seriously now, don't be so. Nineteen is a wonderful age, more even so 
if you're still studying and without responsibilities. In any case, I 
understand you, because 10 years ago I didn't want to get old, even 
though I wasn't afraid of future;it was time after that when I 
decided just let time slip and not to worry until I am at least 40. 


Neith




From drednort at alphalink.com.au  Fri Dec 12 09:06:54 2003
From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 20:06:54 +1100
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] This is me aging.
In-Reply-To: <1E51B98C-2C61-11D8-A524-000A95E29F3E@fandm.edu>
References: <br8vji+lnhp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3FDA1FDE.9580.B0ED14@localhost>

On 12 Dec 2003 at 0:07, Laura Ingalls Huntley wrote:

> Well, it is now officially My Birthday.
> 
> God, I hate getting older.
> 
> Laura
> 
> P.S. Considering how depressing birthdays are at 19, I don't think I'll 
> be able to take it at 30 or 40.  Am I too old for a nice comfy 
> treehouse in Neverland?

I'm not sure that this will cheer you up. Because I'm not 100% sure why you're 
depressed about being 19.

But I remember being 19 (-8 And I remember being really upset about the fact that 
I felt like I was having to grow up now. Having to turn into an adult. And I didn't 
feel like I was ready.

If it's any comfort - it'll probably be at least ten years before adults think you're an 
adult. I'm nearly 29 - and frankly, I feel younger now, than I did when I was 19. I've 
come to realise that I have a lot more time left being young (or relatively young) 
than I thought (-8


Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought
Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html
(ISTJ)       | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 
"You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one
thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the 
facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be 
uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that 
need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil
Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia




From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk  Fri Dec 12 09:11:39 2003
From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 09:11:39 -0000
Subject: Yahoo Wins Again!
In-Reply-To: <004001c3c09b$d157ec50$a6706751@kathryn>
Message-ID: <brc0ob+sqv0@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Kathryn Cawte" 
<kcawte at n...> wrote:
> I've been having that problem all week, but it's getting worse. 
Today is
> definitely the slowest. Maybe there's more traffic in the run up 
to Xmas -
> or maybe I'm just making excuses for a service which seems to 
randomly
> deliver messages just to annoy people :)
> 
> K
> "The Loudest Noise Comes From The Electric Minerva."
> 
> 
> > Is everyone having trouble getting posts through today? I'm
> > wondering if it's because I check the list at the website and 
post
> > from there, rather than through e-mail. It's two hours and 
counting
> > now!
> >
> > Jen, wanting to vent even though she doubts this will go through
> >
> > >
I had terrific trouble all yesterday.  Posts seemed to disappear - 
for 5 hours in one case - so I posted again and then had the 
embarrassing experience of two virtually similar posts on the same 
subject and not usually in sequence.  

At first I thought it must be me, then I realised that there was too 
little being posted by anyone to just be accounted for by a quiet 
day.

Teeth grindingly frustrating.

June




From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk  Fri Dec 12 09:15:52 2003
From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 09:15:52 -0000
Subject: Jolly Reindeer Fact
Message-ID: <brc108+a3qh@eGroups.com>

Just received an email on this, thought you (ladies especially) 
might enjoy:

Did you know...

While both male and female reindeer grow antlers in the summer each 
year, according to the Alaska Department of Fish and Game, male 
reindeer drop their antlers at the beginning of winter, usually late 
November to mid-December. Female reindeer retain their antlers until 
after they give birth in the spring. Therefore, according to every 
historical rendition depicting Santa's reindeer, every single one of 
them, from Rudolph to Blitzen - had to be a girl. We should've 
known....... 

Only women would be able to drag a fat-ass man in a red velvet suit 
all around the world in one night and not get lost.

June







From koukla_es at yahoo.es  Fri Dec 12 12:00:19 2003
From: koukla_es at yahoo.es (neith_seshat)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 12:00:19 -0000
Subject: part vampires and Re: My dream- a chance for NEW CANON!
In-Reply-To: <brbki6+ifnc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <brcakj+c0rd@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> 
wrote:
> Pippin:
> > >  Which is why I think my burning question, "Will Harry ever 
> meet  any vampires?" will be ignored. But please add it to the 
> list.<<
>   
> > Erin:
> > THAT was the other question I was thinking of the other night!  
> > Thanks, Pippin!  And that was exactly the way I was going to 
> phrase  it too.  Cause you can't just ask "Is Snape a vampire?", 
> she wouldn't  answer if he is....


Good questions! I love specially the vampire one, but I would suggest 
to rephrase it , so as to say "Have  Harry ever met or is he going to 
mer a vampire?". Just in case... ;-)

I would also like to offer another little questions:

Do Squibs communicate "telepathically" with cats?

Who (or what ) is Mr. Norris?

Who's the Slytherin guy who saw the Thestrals?



Neith





From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk  Fri Dec 12 12:02:08 2003
From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 12:02:08 -0000
Subject: Continuing a Reindeer Theme
Message-ID: <brcao0+qth2@eGroups.com>

You need sound

 
Hi there - this is to bring a smile to your faces!
http://web.icq.com/shockwave/0,,4845,00.swf

June






From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk  Fri Dec 12 13:31:09 2003
From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 13:31:09 -0000
Subject: part vampires and Re: My dream- a chance for NEW CANON!
In-Reply-To: <brcakj+c0rd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <brcfut+9bls@eGroups.com>

Neith wrote: 
> Good questions! I love specially the vampire one, but I would 
> suggest to rephrase it , so as to say "Have  Harry ever met or is 
> he going to meet a vampire?". Just in case... ;-)
> 

How about Ol' Red Eyes himself?

Spectrally thin
Glowing Red Eyes
Ability to look into people's minds

Oh, and the traditional vampire doesn't die...

Now all Harry has to do is find Voldie's socks so he can hide one of 
them...

;-)

Pip




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Fri Dec 12 14:35:42 2003
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 14:35:42 -0000
Subject: part vampires and Re: My dream- a chance for NEW CANON!
In-Reply-To: <brcfut+9bls@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <brcjnu+ptas@eGroups.com>

Neith:
> > Good questions! I love specially the vampire one, but I would 
> > suggest to rephrase it , so as to say "Have  Harry ever met or 
is 
> > he going to meet a vampire?". Just in case... ;-)
> > 

Pip:

> How about Ol' Red Eyes himself?
> 
> Spectrally thin
> Glowing Red Eyes
> Ability to look into people's minds
> 
> Oh, and the traditional vampire doesn't die...
> 
> Now all Harry has to do is find Voldie's socks so he can hide 
>one of  them...

LOL! So *that's*  why Dumbledore was holding a pair of socks!

Pippin





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Fri Dec 12 15:01:41 2003
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 15:01:41 -0000
Subject: Recognize anyone?
Message-ID: <brcl8l+47n9@eGroups.com>

Minneapolis children's book illustrator Mike Reed has a site 
devoted to caricatures of mythical flamers and flame haters.

http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame1.html

Pippin





From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com  Fri Dec 12 14:59:30 2003
From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (IggyMcSnurd)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 08:59:30 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Jolly Reindeer Fact
In-Reply-To: <brc108+a3qh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000201c3c0c0$8fad9f00$68e479a5@Einstein>


>Only women would be able to drag a fat-ass man in a red velvet suit 
>all around the world in one night and not get lost.
>
>June


Iggy here:

As a counterpoint, you have to acknowledge that only a man would be
smart enough to get those eight women to do all the work of dragging his
fat ass around the world.  (Can you see a fat woman getting eight men to
do that much work for her?  Ain't gonna happen.  *grin*)

Iggy McSnurd








From saitaina at wizzards.net  Fri Dec 12 15:20:51 2003
From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 07:20:51 -0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Jolly Reindeer Fact
References: <000201c3c0c0$8fad9f00$68e479a5@Einstein>
Message-ID: <003c01c3c0c3$88ea0660$a2361c40@aoldsl.net>

Iggy wrote:

<(Can you see a fat woman getting eight men
to
do that much work for her?  Ain't gonna
happen.  *grin*)>

A. I find that rude.  B.  Don't be too sure,
I can get men to do quite a few things for
me.  It's a talent I possess.

Saitaina
****
Brave and bold they're not.  They ain't the
bravest heroes...but they're the only ones
we've got.


http://www.livejournal.com/users/saitaina

"No, one day I'm going to look back on all
this and plow face-first into a tree because
I was looking the wrong bloody way. And I'll
still be having a better day than I am
today."




From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com  Fri Dec 12 15:26:53 2003
From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (IggyMcSnurd)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 09:26:53 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Recognize anyone?
In-Reply-To: <brcl8l+47n9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000301c3c0c4$629a2ca0$68e479a5@Einstein>

>From: pippin
>Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Recognize anyone?

Iggy here:

Oh yes, I think I've encountered all of the ones I've looked at so
far... some on this list, and some on others.  (The Rat seems to spring
to mind the most readily... *laugh*)

On the downside, just like when taking an Abnormal Psych class, all of
us fit into most of these categories at some time or another to a lesser
or greater degree...  I've seen a few I exhibit some traits of
occasionally, one or two that I am when only slightly exaggerated
(fortunately those come out very infrequently)and others I don't qualify
for in the slightest...  It's interesting to read about these and see
what you qualify as when you're on a bad day...  (And don't anyone try
to say that you don't qualify for a lot of these occasionally, because
we *all* do...)

Iggy McSnurd






From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com  Fri Dec 12 15:42:39 2003
From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (IggyMcSnurd)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 09:42:39 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Jolly Reindeer Fact
In-Reply-To: <003c01c3c0c3$88ea0660$a2361c40@aoldsl.net>
Message-ID: <000401c3c0c6$96c5d130$68e479a5@Einstein>


>>Iggy wrote:
>>
>><(Can you see a fat woman getting eight men
>>to
>>do that much work for her?? Ain't gonna
>>happen.? *grin*)>
>>

>Saitaina
>A. I find that rude.? B.? Don't be too sure,
>I can get men to do quite a few things for
>me.? It's a talent I possess.
>
> 

Iggy here:

It was a joking rebuttal to a joking comment about women doing all the
work for a fat assed man who can't drag himself around or ask for
directions.  (Or should I say that June sending in the joke as rude as
well?  Some may find it so, but I recognize it as a joke and nothing
more.)

Iggy McSnurd







From saitaina at wizzards.net  Fri Dec 12 15:44:29 2003
From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 07:44:29 -0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Jolly Reindeer Fact
References: <000401c3c0c6$96c5d130$68e479a5@Einstein>
Message-ID: <005f01c3c0c6$d5fd22e0$a2361c40@aoldsl.net>

It was a joking rebuttal to a joking comment
about women doing all the
work for a fat assed man who can't drag
himself around or ask for
directions.  (Or should I say that June
sending in the joke as rude as
well?  Some may find it so, but I recognize
it as a joke and nothing
more.)

Iggy McSnurd

Understandable but still slightly rude.
Technically both were but I took more offence
to the fat woman bit as I've heard rude
things regarding my size all my teenage
years, so much so that I'm now an
angoraphobic.

Saitaina
****
Brave and bold they're not.  They ain't the
bravest heroes...but they're the only ones
we've got.


http://www.livejournal.com/users/saitaina

"No, one day I'm going to look back on all
this and plow face-first into a tree because
I was looking the wrong bloody way. And I'll
still be having a better day than I am
today."




From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com  Fri Dec 12 15:52:38 2003
From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (IggyMcSnurd)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 09:52:38 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Jolly Reindeer Fact
In-Reply-To: <005f01c3c0c6$d5fd22e0$a2361c40@aoldsl.net>
Message-ID: <000601c3c0c7$fc7644a0$68e479a5@Einstein>

>Saitaina
>Understandable but still slightly rude.
>Technically both were but I took more offence
>to the fat woman bit as I've heard rude
>things regarding my size all my teenage
>years, so much so that I'm now an
>angoraphobic.

Iggy here:

Ahhh... well, ok.  I understand now.  No offense intended.  In fact, of
you look at a pic of my wife, you'll see that she's on the "pleasantly
padded" side.  *grin*  Trust me, I have nothing against larger women in
the slightest... I'm married to one, in fact.  (The only thing I find...
disturbing... about someone's weight is if it goes to the massive
extremes... either someone who is so thin that they look almost
skeletal, or someone who's so overweight that they start to lose any
discernable shape...)

Iggy McSnurd

Ps: Angoraphobic... Isn't that a fear of really soft and fluffy
sweaters??







From saitaina at wizzards.net  Fri Dec 12 16:09:25 2003
From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 08:09:25 -0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Jolly Reindeer Fact
References: <000601c3c0c7$fc7644a0$68e479a5@Einstein>
Message-ID: <007001c3c0ca$50fd2500$a2361c40@aoldsl.net>

Iggy wrote:

<Ps: Agoraphobic... Isn't that a fear of
really soft and fluffy
sweaters??>

Er, no.  It's a fear of people and crowds.
Added to a fear of judgment and I can't even
make a call to a store or doctor's office
without rehearsing it five million times in
my head (and forget talking to sales
clerks).,

Saitaina
****
Brave and bold they're not.  They ain't the
bravest heroes...but they're the only ones
we've got.


http://www.livejournal.com/users/saitaina

"No, one day I'm going to look back on all
this and plow face-first into a tree because
I was looking the wrong bloody way. And I'll
still be having a better day than I am
today."




From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Fri Dec 12 16:50:08 2003
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 16:50:08 -0000
Subject: Recognize anyone?
In-Reply-To: <brcl8l+47n9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <brcrk0+a11e@eGroups.com>

Pippin:

> Minneapolis children's book illustrator Mike Reed has a site 
> devoted to caricatures of mythical flamers and flame haters.
> 
> http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame1.html

That is frightening on so many levels.  And we criticise the 
Dursleys for being cartoonish.

I only had time to read a few, but it demands sending out in bound 
form with the welcome letter, to be kept by the computer at all 
times.

Prediction: by this time next week there'll be a 'Which Flame 
Warrior Are You' quiz going the rounds.

David the Philosopher, wondering if anyone will own up to being our 
Toxic Granny




From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Fri Dec 12 16:55:08 2003
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 16:55:08 -0000
Subject: Jolly Reindeer Fact
In-Reply-To: <003c01c3c0c3$88ea0660$a2361c40@aoldsl.net>
Message-ID: <brcrtc+euhh@eGroups.com>

Saity, who's not incapable of dishing it out herself, wrote:

> Don't be too sure,
> I can get men to do quite a few things for
> me.  It's a talent I possess.

That sounds distinctly like a challenge.

Name your activity, and I give you one week.

Merry Christmas

David




From saitaina at wizzards.net  Fri Dec 12 16:59:23 2003
From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 08:59:23 -0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Jolly Reindeer Fact
References: <brcrtc+euhh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <009901c3c0d1$51b1a3c0$a2361c40@aoldsl.net>

David wrote:

<That sounds distinctly like a challenge.

Name your activity, and I give you one week.>

No thanks, too tired and stressed to even
attempt it.


Saitaina
****
Brave and bold they're not.  They ain't the
bravest heroes...but they're the only ones
we've got.


http://www.livejournal.com/users/saitaina

"No, one day I'm going to look back on all
this and plow face-first into a tree because
I was looking the wrong bloody way. And I'll
still be having a better day than I am
today."




From fakeplastikcynic at hotmail.com  Fri Dec 12 17:51:22 2003
From: fakeplastikcynic at hotmail.com (Martha)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 17:51:22 -0000
Subject: Yahoo Wins Again!
In-Reply-To: <braqtt+ft9a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <brcv6q+dfi4@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" <stevejjen at e...> 
wrote:
> Is everyone having trouble getting posts through today? I'm 
> wondering if it's because I check the list at the website and post 
> from there, rather than through e-mail. It's two hours and counting 
> now!
> 
> Jen, wanting to vent even though she doubts this will go through

Martha:
You know, I seem to have the exact opposite problem. On the occasions 
that I do post, my messages seem to come through twice (and I am 
definitely not clicking more than once or anything like that). Case 
in point: last night I replied to Dumbledad's message about legal 
drinking ages. My message has appeared twice on the list - the first 
one claims to have come through at something like 1.02am and then 
there is an identical message labelled 1.20am. (Does anyone have any 
idea why this happens, other than the fact that Yahoo is rubbish?)

~ Martha




From fakeplastikcynic at hotmail.com  Fri Dec 12 18:01:37 2003
From: fakeplastikcynic at hotmail.com (Martha)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 18:01:37 -0000
Subject: Yahoo Wins Again!
In-Reply-To: <braqtt+ft9a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <brcvq1+n202@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" <stevejjen at e...> 
wrote:
> Is everyone having trouble getting posts through today? I'm 
> wondering if it's because I check the list at the website and post 
> from there, rather than through e-mail. It's two hours and counting 
> now!
> 
> Jen, wanting to vent even though she doubts this will go through

Martha:
You know, I seem to have the exact opposite problem. On the occasions 
that I do post, my messages seem to come through twice (and I am 
definitely not clicking more than once or anything like that). Case 
in point: last night I replied to Dumbledad's message about legal 
drinking ages. My message has appeared twice on the list - the first 
one claims to have come through at something like 1.02am and then 
there is an identical message labelled 1.20am. (Does anyone have any 
idea why this happens, other than the fact that Yahoo is rubbish?)

~ Martha




From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk  Fri Dec 12 18:20:13 2003
From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 18:20:13 -0000
Subject: Yahoo Wins Again!
In-Reply-To: <brcvq1+n202@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <brd0st+soct@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Martha" 
<fakeplastikcynic at h...> wrote:
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" 
<stevejjen at e...> 
> wrote:
> > Is everyone having trouble getting posts through today? I'm 
> > wondering if it's because I check the list at the website and 
post 
> > from there, rather than through e-mail. It's two hours and 
counting 
> > now!
> > 
> > Jen, wanting to vent even though she doubts this will go through
> 
> Martha:
> You know, I seem to have the exact opposite problem. On the 
occasions 
> that I do post, my messages seem to come through twice (and I am 
> definitely not clicking more than once or anything like that). 
Case 
> in point: last night I replied to Dumbledad's message about legal 
> drinking ages. My message has appeared twice on the list - the 
first 
> one claims to have come through at something like 1.02am and then 
> there is an identical message labelled 1.20am. (Does anyone have 
any 
> idea why this happens, other than the fact that Yahoo is rubbish?)
> 
> ~ Martha

And on cue it's done just that - well at least it didn't fail to 
double post just to prove you wrong!  

I think your Yahoo is Rubbish theory probably works best.

June

I find the way it did exactly what you said it would there quite 
spooky!




From msbeadsley at yahoo.com  Fri Dec 12 18:27:42 2003
From: msbeadsley at yahoo.com (msbeadsley)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 18:27:42 -0000
Subject: Continuing a Reindeer Theme
In-Reply-To: <brcao0+qth2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <brd1au+5v2q@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "junediamanti" 
<june.diamanti at b...> wrote:
> You need sound
> 
>  
> Hi there - this is to bring a smile to your faces!
> http://web.icq.com/shockwave/0,,4845,00.swf
> 
> June

Cute. Now I'm tempted to post a URL for "elf bowling." Any takers?




From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com  Fri Dec 12 18:40:32 2003
From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (IggyMcSnurd)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 12:40:32 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Jolly Reindeer Fact
In-Reply-To: <007001c3c0ca$50fd2500$a2361c40@aoldsl.net>
Message-ID: <000101c3c0df$70740ec0$bd85aec7@Einstein>


>>Iggy wrote:

>><Ps: Agoraphobic... Isn't that a fear of
>>really soft and fluffy
>>sweaters??>
>
>Saitaina
>Er, no.? It's a fear of people and crowds.
>Added to a fear of judgment and I can't even
>make a call to a store or doctor's office
>without rehearsing it five million times in
>my head (and forget talking to sales
>clerks).,

Iggy here:

*laugh* You wrote it as "ANGORAphobic," not "AGORAphobic"... hence the
question.  (And I wrote it as angora in the quote as well... your
spellchecker may have corrected it or something...)

I know agoraphobia well.  I have severe panic attack disorder, and
agoraphobia becomes a common side effect of it.  When I had my first
onset of the panic attacks, I could barely leave my house for over three
months.  I had to take Xanax and force myself to go anywhere... and even
then it was a trial.  I think the only two reasons I survived the
severity of the was because I had a lot of acting, choir, and speech
training, which teaches you a LOT of techniques for getting over "stage
fright" which, in essence, is pretty similar.  The other one was that I
just refused to let my panic attacks ruin and rule my life.

(As an example of the severity... I had a period of 36 hours straight
where I never got below severe anxiety, and was often in full blown
panic.  My doctor was amazed I hadn't gone completely under from the
mental strain.  My bio-psych professor later told me that he was more
amazed that my heart hasn't popped from the pressure.)

Iggy McSnurd







From strom5150 at charter.net  Fri Dec 12 18:43:59 2003
From: strom5150 at charter.net (strom5150)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 18:43:59 -0000
Subject: Continuing a Reindeer/Christmas Theme
In-Reply-To: <brd1au+5v2q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <brd29f+hoj4@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "msbeadsley" 
<msbeadsley at y...> wrote:
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "junediamanti" 
> <june.diamanti at b...> wrote:
> > You need sound
> > 
> >  
> > Hi there - this is to bring a smile to your faces!
> > http://web.icq.com/shockwave/0,,4845,00.swf
> > 
> > June

msbeadsley:
 
> Cute. Now I'm tempted to post a URL for "elf bowling." Any takers?

Now me, Danielle:

Yes! I love the elf bowling! And here's one I hadn't seen before this 
year:

http://ww10.e-tractions.com/snowglobe/globe.htm

(Also best if you have sound. Also, it might have some pop-ups with 
it, sorry.) I find this one very therapuetic after 
a bad day! Enjoy!

Danielle




From rredordead at aol.com  Fri Dec 12 19:02:12 2003
From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 19:02:12 -0000
Subject: part vampires and Re: My dream- a chance for NEW CANON!
In-Reply-To: <brcjnu+ptas@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <brd3bk+a084@eGroups.com>

> Pip:
> > How about Ol' Red Eyes himself?
> > Spectrally thin
> > Glowing Red Eyes
> > Ability to look into people's minds
> > Oh, and the traditional vampire doesn't die...
> > Now all Harry has to do is find Voldie's socks so he can hide 
> >one of  them...

> Pippin:
> LOL! So *that's*  why Dumbledore was holding a pair of socks!


Mandy here:
OK I've missed the joke. I even tracked up the thread, but what has a 
pair of socks to do with Vampires?  I know the Garlic, Crosses, 
Wooden Stake associations but socks? I'm intrigued.  ;-)

You might be onto something about LV being a vampire though.

Mandy







From kcawte at ntlworld.com  Sat Dec 13 03:26:50 2003
From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 19:26:50 -0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] part vampires and Re: My dream- a chance for NEW CANON!
References: <brd3bk+a084@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <003e01c3c128$febd0940$a6706751@kathryn>



> Mandy here:
> OK I've missed the joke. I even tracked up the thread, but what has a
> pair of socks to do with Vampires?  I know the Garlic, Crosses,
> Wooden Stake associations but socks? I'm intrigued.  ;-)
>
> You might be onto something about LV being a vampire though.
>
One of the traditional myths about vampires is that they seem to suffer from
obsessive-compulsive disorder. Throw a handful of grain in front of them and
they will have to stop until they've counted and/or picked them up. I assume
they would feel the need to find a pair to the sock?

K




From lupinesque at yahoo.com  Fri Dec 12 19:29:51 2003
From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 19:29:51 -0000
Subject: This is me aging.
In-Reply-To: <1E51B98C-2C61-11D8-A524-000A95E29F3E@fandm.edu>
Message-ID: <brd4vf+qblg@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Laura Ingalls Huntley wrote:

> Well, it is now officially My Birthday.
> 
> God, I hate getting older.

Happy birthday anyway!

Amy Z




From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk  Fri Dec 12 19:38:30 2003
From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 19:38:30 -0000
Subject: part vampires and Re: My dream- a chance for NEW CANON!
In-Reply-To: <003e01c3c128$febd0940$a6706751@kathryn>
Message-ID: <brd5fm+a746@eGroups.com>


> 
> > Mandy here:
> > OK I've missed the joke. I even tracked up the thread, but what 
> > has a pair of socks to do with Vampires?  I know the Garlic, 
> > Crosses, Wooden Stake associations but socks? I'm intrigued.  ;-)

Kathryn wrote:
> One of the traditional myths about vampires is that they seem to 
> suffer from obsessive-compulsive disorder. Throw a handful of 
> grain in front of them and they will have to stop until they've 
> counted and/or picked them up. I assume they would feel the need 
> to find a pair to the sock?

Kathryn's right - it's the obsessive compulsive nature of vampires. 
They must find the sock's pair. Especially if they *know* the ruddy 
things were paired up earlier ... ;-)

Salt also works (they have to count the grains), as do fiendishly 
complex knots (they have to untie them).

Pip




From lupinesque at yahoo.com  Fri Dec 12 19:51:14 2003
From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 19:51:14 -0000
Subject: Magical announcement
In-Reply-To: <bqo44i+pj52@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <brd67i+u48o@eGroups.com>

June wrote:

> I hereby nominate you for the Order of Merlin (First Class) 
> 
> and I hope that is unanimous.

Unanimity is hard to come by in the magical world, but the Awards, 
Honors, and Christmas Crackers Subcommittee of the Indoor Games 
Council of the Department of Magical Games and Sports, which awards 
the Order of Merlin, has concluded its annual meeting in the basement 
of the Hogs Head, and as soon as the subcommittee members showered 
off the goat smell they enclosed their choices for this year's Os of 
M in the traditional topaz-yellow sealed envelopes.  (And when they 
seal them, they really seal them.  In a daring robbery, daring 
robbers once stole the envelopes as they were being transported from 
Hogsmeade to the Ministry of Magic.  The one who tried to remove the 
charm on the first envelope is now performing five nights a week in a 
very enlightened circus, and can balance the ball on his nose almost 
every time even when not offered fish in exchange.)

The long-awaited evening has arrived, and Miss Use of Muggle 
Artifacts and Billy Crystal are poised to announce the newest members 
of the esteemed Order of Merlin.  However, one *is* required to wear 
clothes to the ceremony.  House-elves used to be eligible until a 
very embarrassing incident involving a potholder with an 
unfortunately placed burn hole, and the awarding of the Os of M is 
now considered, if not a black tie affair, at least clothing-non-
optional.  Mr. Rumgo, could you describe your new apparel for us, 
please?  

Amy Z




From s_ings at yahoo.com  Fri Dec 12 20:04:58 2003
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 15:04:58 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Happy Birthday, Laura and Neith!
Message-ID: <20031212200458.77604.qmail@web41103.mail.yahoo.com>

*scurries in quickly with more food, hoping the party
is still in full swing*

Can anyone help me with these cakes? Careful,
careful... Oh, there, safe on the table. Thanks. :)

Today's birthday honourees (as you already know) are
Laura and Neith. Birthday owls can be sent care of
this list or directly to: lhuntley at fandm.edu and
koukla_es at yahoo.es

Wishing both a day filled with fun and magic.

Happy Birthday, Laura!
Happy Birthday, Neith!~

Sheryll the very old (by comparison) Birthday Elf (44)

=====
http://www.livejournal.com/community/conventionalley/

______________________________________________________________________ 
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca



From editor at texas.net  Fri Dec 12 20:18:24 2003
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 20:18:24 -0000
Subject: David's assignment
In-Reply-To: <brcrtc+euhh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <brd7qg+si8s@eGroups.com>

> Saity, who's not incapable of dishing it out herself, wrote:
> 
> > Don't be too sure,
> > I can get men to do quite a few things for
> > me.  It's a talent I possess.

Dave:
 
> That sounds distinctly like a challenge.
> 
> Name your activity, and I give you one week.
> 
> Merry Christmas

Well, I'm also a Woman of Size, who doubts she is as persuasive as 
Sait, but who has occasionally gotten men to do things without 
resorting to negative reinforcement such as the threat of sitting on 
them. As one of the sisterhood, I suppose I must pick up this 
gauntlet that Sait is too tired to essay.

Um. Compose a Christmas filk and/or TBAY-style where Snape makes 
reference to loving Lily and denies he is a vampire. If the latter 
option, Sheryll, Amy, Catherine, and I must appear in it.

*does sexy sideways glance at David*

~Amanda




From s_ings at yahoo.com  Fri Dec 12 20:23:49 2003
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 15:23:49 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] David's assignment
In-Reply-To: <brd7qg+si8s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20031212202349.1738.qmail@web41105.mail.yahoo.com>

 --- Amanda <editor at texas.net> wrote: > > Saity, who's
not incapable of dishing it out
> herself, wrote:
> > 
> > > Don't be too sure,
> > > I can get men to do quite a few things for
> > > me.  It's a talent I possess.
> 
> Dave:
>  
> > That sounds distinctly like a challenge.
> > 
> > Name your activity, and I give you one week.
> > 
> > Merry Christmas
> 
> Well, I'm also a Woman of Size, who doubts she is as
> persuasive as 
> Sait, but who has occasionally gotten men to do
> things without 
> resorting to negative reinforcement such as the
> threat of sitting on 
> them. As one of the sisterhood, I suppose I must
> pick up this 
> gauntlet that Sait is too tired to essay.
> 
> Um. Compose a Christmas filk and/or TBAY-style where
> Snape makes 
> reference to loving Lily and denies he is a vampire.
> If the latter 
> option, Sheryll, Amy, Catherine, and I must appear
> in it.
> 
> *does sexy sideways glance at David*
> 

Must add my sexy sideways glance as well, especially
if there's a chance that I will be appearing anywhere
near Snape as a result. :-D

Sheryll

=====
http://www.livejournal.com/community/conventionalley/

______________________________________________________________________ 
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca



From lhuntley at fandm.edu  Fri Dec 12 22:11:14 2003
From: lhuntley at fandm.edu (Laura Ingalls Huntley)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 17:11:14 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] ..and this is me combining posts.
In-Reply-To: <brbn3d+t85s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <1A292A60-2CF0-11D8-A524-000A95E29F3E@fandm.edu>

DISCLAIMER:  Looking back over this message, I can see that it is 
ill-constructed, vague, ramble-y, rant-y, and more than a little 
unintelligible in places.  I shamelessly blame this on lack of sleep, a 
number of upcoming final exams, and my penchant for parenthetical 
asides and ellipses (which are absolutely uncontrollable on less than 
four hours of sleep ^_~).  Read at your own risk.

Okay.  In order of . . . well, no order really.  Perhaps a rough 
estimate of chronological order.  Maybe.  ^_~ Birthdays, Warriors, and 
Agoraphobia.

Anna:
> Happy Birthday!!
> <snip>
> Anyway, don't get discouraged.  We've all been there and survived!
> And a treehouse would be great!! But, Neverland?  Uh, I think we can
> find a better forest to build that treehouse!
> Anyway, I'm finally getting sleepy... must take advantage...
> Hope all your birthday wishes come true!

Thanks!  But . . . what's wrong with Neverland?  It's got trees, 
mermaids, pirates, and presumably some sort of anti-aging atmosphere 
that sounds just lovely.

Or was that the fairy dust?  I forget.

Neith:
> Seriously now, don't be so. Nineteen is a wonderful age, more even so
> if you're still studying and without responsibilities. In any case, I
> understand you, because 10 years ago I didn't want to get old, even
> though I wasn't afraid of future;it was time after that when I
> decided just let time slip and not to worry until I am at least 40.

Happy Birthday to you too, Neith!  Although, I have to ask:  What 
*exactly* do you mean be "without responsibilities"?  I happen to take 
my studying v. seriously, you know. ^_~ It might *seem* like all frats 
and keg parties, but mostly it's just *paying* to work your ass off, 
instead of *getting* paid to do it.

(NOTE:  Of course, I have *never* had a drop of alcohol in my life, as 
I am under 21 and it would be WRONG. ^_~)

Hmm . . . I'm not really afraid of the future either.  Well, maybe a 
bit.  I *don't* want to enter the work force, really.  Most jobs seem . 
. . well, horribly boring.  I really can't imagine not studying and 
learning everyday.  *thinks* Maybe I can be a research scientist.

Is there any way you can just stay in a school forever?  Really, it's 
all I'm good at.

Shaun:
> I'm not sure that this will cheer you up. Because I'm not 100% sure 
> why you're
> depressed about being 19.
> But I remember being 19 (-8 And I remember being really upset about 
> the fact that
> I felt like I was having to grow up now. Having to turn into an adult. 
> And I didn't
> feel like I was ready.

Yeah, that's part of it.  Only, it's less of a "I'm not ready!" feeling 
and more of a "I won't, and they can't make me! . . . I mean, they 
can't, can they?" feeling.  I remember when I was about seven or eight 
or so I made a list of very un-adultish things that I did/thought/was 
and promised myself that I'd never stop doing/thinking/being any of 
them.

Well, you can imagine how successful I've been at *that*, which sort of 
saddens me.  I mean, most of them weren't very noble traits (among them 
were "I will never feel bad for being an embarrassment to my mother" 
and "I will always hit anyone who needs hitting, especially my little 
brother," only there were words misspelled. ^_^), but I sort of *miss* 
being weird and immature and crazy and proud of it.

Well, I guess I am still sort of weird, immature, and crazy . . . and, 
okay, I'm still pretty proud of it, too.  But . . . it's just 
different, you know?

And what *is* "maturity," anyway?  I ask you.  Because it seems to me 
that the only people so terribly concerned with it are either a) 
pre-teenagers or b) really, really boring and judgmental.

AND . . . *suddenly notices that a very large soapbox has materialized 
under her feet.*  Erm . . . *steps off it sheepishly*.

Shaun:
> If it's any comfort - it'll probably be at least ten years before 
> adults think you're an
> adult. I'm nearly 29 - and frankly, I feel younger now, than I did 
> when I was 19. I've
> come to realise that I have a lot more time left being young (or 
> relatively young)
> than I thought (-8

I seem to be stuck between being annoyed when adults expect me to grow 
up in a hurry and exasperated when, for instance, my college professors 
conduct classes like they're kindergarten teachers.  One of them 
actually asked my multivariable class today what you get when you 
divide a negative number by its positive counterpart.  *sigh* Granted, 
the case could be made that he was just trying to see if we were awake 
(which would be a v. valid concern on his part).

My real problem is that it's just going so *fast*.  It seems like just 
yesterday I was all upset because I was turning eighteen, and just 
before that I was in a state of shock and dismay because I'd hit 
twelve.  And there's just no way to *stop* it.  My life is hurtling by 
me at an alarming rate, and there's nothing at all I can do about it.  
Moreover, birthdays *force* me to think about that fact, which is why I 
hate them with a mad passion.

And now I'm going to stop talking about this before anyone gets an even 
*lower* opinion of me and my ability to form coherent sentences.  ^_^  
So . . . Thanks to Amy Z, Sheryll, and anyone else I might have missed 
for the birthday wishes!

On to the Flame Warriors:

I am sad to confess that I am definitely the Tireless Rebutter, as 
anyone who has ever engaged in an argument with me can attest to 
(Shaun, pippin, everyone else...sorry 'bout that).  However, I protest 
the assertion that I am "universally loathed."  After all, not *that* 
many people know me. ^_~

Iggy:
> Ps: Agoraphobic... Isn't that a fear of
> really soft and fluffy
> sweaters??>

Saitaina:
> Er, no.  It's a fear of people and crowds.
> Added to a fear of judgment and I can't even
> make a call to a store or doctor's office
> without rehearsing it five million times in
> my head (and forget talking to sales
> clerks).

I remember one of my mom's best friends had agoraphobia (back when I 
was teeny weeny and my mum still had her little circle of girlfriends). 
  I never understood it at all back then, probably because my mother 
explained it as "Ellen is afraid to leave the house," and left it at 
that.  (Understandably, as by the time I had processed this strange bit 
of information and was ready to make further inquiries on the subject, 
Ellen was sitting in the passenger seat of our car on the way to her 
first psychiatric appointment in years.  Oh, kids are the most tactless 
little creatures ever.)  Anyway, I think in this case I worked out for 
myself that Ellen must be scared of germs or something in the air or 
maybe wild animals, because *why* would anyone be afraid to go outside 
their house?

Now, it's definitely not such a mystery to me.  I certainly don't have 
it, but every now and then I definitely get panic attacks about going 
to see people (interestingly, I don't have any problem at all with 
strangers/strange places.  It's the casual acquaintances that really 
get me). But, OH . . . Phones.  The Scourge of the Earth.  The Bane of 
My Existence.  Forget rehearsing lines.  I just can't *do* it, most of 
the time.  The only people I feel comfortable on the phone with are my 
mom and my boyfriend, full stop.  Can't even talk to my eight year old 
sister (who also had a birthday today) without getting nervous ("Oh, 
dear God, what do I *say*?!").  You know that Thing people have, where 
they feel compelled to answer a ringing phone?  Never experienced it in 
my life.

Although, there *are* times when I can call people and be cool as a 
cucumber.  I think these times are the products of when my rare 
Productive Mood and my even rarer Quick-and-Efficient Mood coincide.  
The Productive Mood gives me this heady sense of "Let's get things 
DONE!" (getting things DONE often requires telephones), and the 
Quick-and-Efficient Mood makes me pick up the receiver and dial the 
number before I can think about it too much and chicken out.

So, yeah.  Phones.  Bad.

Laura (who has just realized that her low opinion of paying work 
probably stems from the fact that they only jobs she has ever had were 
filing for her parents' contracting business and working on a boxing 
line at a blueberry factory. *shudder*)




From msbeadsley at yahoo.com  Fri Dec 12 23:11:24 2003
From: msbeadsley at yahoo.com (msbeadsley)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 23:11:24 -0000
Subject: Continuing a Reindeer/Christmas Theme
In-Reply-To: <brd29f+hoj4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <brdhus+mlpd@eGroups.com>

> Yes! I love the elf bowling! And here's one I hadn't seen before 
this 
> year:
> Danielle

But I can't tell if the screams are out of terror or just: "Wheeee!"

Sandy




From fc26det at aol.com  Fri Dec 12 23:22:13 2003
From: fc26det at aol.com (Potterfanme)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 23:22:13 -0000
Subject: ..and this is me combining posts.
In-Reply-To: <1A292A60-2CF0-11D8-A524-000A95E29F3E@fandm.edu>
Message-ID: <brdij5+hj6o@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Laura Ingalls Huntley 
<lhuntley at f...> wrote:

> Hmm . . . I'm not really afraid of the future either.  Well, maybe 
a 
> bit.  I *don't* want to enter the work force, really.  Most jobs 
seem . 
> . . well, horribly boring.  I really can't imagine not studying and 
> learning everyday.  *thinks* Maybe I can be a research scientist.
> 
> Is there any way you can just stay in a school forever?  Really, 
it's 
> all I'm good at.

Happy belated birthday!  I felt exactly the same way about most of 
what you posted at your age.  Scary. : )  Why not be a teacher?  
Sounds like you would be perfect for it!  You would be staying in 
school, still learning, AND getting paid for it!  Plus the kids-no 
matter what age you taught would keep you young at heart!

Susan
 





From saitaina at wizzards.net  Sat Dec 13 00:23:07 2003
From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 16:23:07 -0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] David's assignment (as well as a reply to Iggy)
References: <20031212202349.1738.qmail@web41105.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <004f01c3c10f$495b5b60$b8361c40@aoldsl.net>

Iggy wrote:

<I think the only two reasons I survived the
severity of the was because I had a lot of
acting, choir, and speech
training, which teaches you a LOT of
techniques for getting over "stage
fright" which, in essence, is pretty
similar.>

Which is odd as I hav studied acting and been
on th stage most of my natural life, but
recently my panic attacks resulting from my
phobia's have left me with severe stage
fright.  So sever in fact that I have dropped
out of the profession all together.

Sheryll wrote:

<Must add my sexy sideways glance as well,
especially
if there's a chance that I will be appearing
anywhere
near Snape as a result. :-D>

Oh lord, I am so glad I've dropped out of
this...eww, Snape.

Saitaina
****
Brave and bold they're not.  They ain't the
bravest heroes...but they're the only ones
we've got.


http://www.livejournal.com/users/saitaina

"No, one day I'm going to look back on all
this and plow face-first into a tree because
I was looking the wrong bloody way. And I'll
still be having a better day than I am
today."




From tabouli at unite.com.au  Sat Dec 13 00:40:19 2003
From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli)
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 11:40:19 +1100
Subject: Getting ooooold...
Message-ID: <003101c3c111$b300ba40$0a5032d2@useriq2qgc104q>

Laura:
> Considering how depressing birthdays are at 19, I don't think I'll 
be able to take it at 30 or 40.  Am I too old for a nice comfy 
treehouse in Neverland?<

Hey, if it's any comfort, I was even more precocious in the OMG, I'm getting ooooold department... I started agonising at *15*.  Yes, laugh if you like, but I had convinced myself that 15 was the beginning of the end.  My 15th birthday was a dark day, one that symbolised the sunset of childhood and all its freshness and life and creativity and magic, the first step on the long downward road to the grave...

...my friends had no patience with me either.  Oh for God's *sake* was their general opinion.  I blame Trophy Child Syndrome, myself.  I'd been led to believe I was meant to be a Child Prodigy, with my Name Up In Lights, and (again, laugh if you will, but) I felt that reaching 15 without having published a book, won any significant prizes or made any significant achievements made me a failure.  15 years old, and what have I achieved that means anything?  Nothing!

O dear.

Fortunately, I grew out of this.  I did have OMG, I'm starting to *AGE* crises in my twenties (had plenty of those... much scrutinising my face in mirrors at different angles and under different lights and tracking the progress of wrinkles), but strangely enough, once I'd pulled off a lifestyle I really loved, my aging crises just faded away.  Considering how distressing I found 15, I weathered the far scarier 30 pretty well, because by then I was actually happy with where my life was.  And now, after 2 and a half years of my amenable lifestyle, I feel younger than I did at 28.  I think I even look younger - nearly imploded with horror when someone estimated my age on my 30s at 28 (when I was working in a full-time, stressful job and was very miserable due to family dramas).  These days no-one's put me above 27 or 28 for a year or two.  I'm now a decrepit 31 (winces), but fully intend to remain spiritually in my 20s for as long as I can manage.  So there.

Take heart, Laura!

Tabouli.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From strom5150 at charter.net  Sat Dec 13 03:04:27 2003
From: strom5150 at charter.net (strom5150)
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 03:04:27 -0000
Subject: Continuing a Reindeer/Christmas Theme
In-Reply-To: <brdhus+mlpd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <brdvjr+pplk@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "msbeadsley" 
<msbeadsley at y...> wrote:
> > Yes! I love the elf bowling! And here's one I hadn't seen before 
> this 
> > year:
> > Danielle

Sandy replies:
> 
> But I can't tell if the screams are out of terror or just: "Wheeee!"
> 

Now me (Danielle) again:

Now, don't go ruining it for me! I just assumed they were screams of 
terror. <g>
Danielle




From dhorton3 at cfl.rr.com  Sat Dec 13 00:27:21 2003
From: dhorton3 at cfl.rr.com (Dianne)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 19:27:21 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Continuing a Reindeer Theme
References: <brcao0+qth2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <001601c3c10f$dffbd7c0$6401a8c0@cfl.rr.com>

Thanks I really needed that. Merry Christmas to all too. Mary Dianne
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: junediamanti 
  To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, December 12, 2003 7:02 AM
  Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Continuing a Reindeer Theme


  You need sound


  Hi there - this is to bring a smile to your faces!
  http://web.icq.com/shockwave/0,,4845,00.swf

  June




        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
       
       

  ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________

  Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the group's Admin Files!
  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/

  Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying!


  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From silverdragon at ezweb.com.au  Sat Dec 13 03:55:05 2003
From: silverdragon at ezweb.com.au (silverdragon at ezweb.com.au)
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 13:55:05 +1000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Yahoo Wins Again!
References: <brd0st+soct@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000201c3c13a$ab5f0160$7e984cca@Monteith>


> I think your Yahoo is Rubbish theory probably works best.
>
> June

People I know are convinved Yahoo! is run out of a garage in California by a
12 year old kid.

On second thought, if it was run by a 12 year old kid out of a California
garage it would probably *work* properly.

Nox




From silverdragon at ezweb.com.au  Sat Dec 13 04:04:26 2003
From: silverdragon at ezweb.com.au (silverdragon at ezweb.com.au)
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 14:04:26 +1000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] part vampires and Re: My dream- a chance for NEW CANON!
References: <brd5fm+a746@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000301c3c13a$ac30d050$7e984cca@Monteith>

> Kathryn wrote:
> > One of the traditional myths about vampires is that they seem to
> > suffer from obsessive-compulsive disorder. Throw a handful of
> > grain in front of them and they will have to stop until they've
> > counted and/or picked them up. I assume they would feel the need
> > to find a pair to the sock?

Pip wrote
> Kathryn's right - it's the obsessive compulsive nature of vampires.
> They must find the sock's pair. Especially if they *know* the ruddy
> things were paired up earlier ... ;-)
>
> Salt also works (they have to count the grains), as do fiendishly
> complex knots (they have to untie them).


This reminds me of one of the Folletto of Italian folklore. This Folletto is
called the Linchetto, and they are the Night Elves of the Elven race. The
Linchetto are said to be the cause of nightmares and odd noises in the
night. They hate disorder and will not dwell where disorder exists. An old
technique of driving away the Linchetto was to spill seeds on the floor
surrounding the bed. The night elf would come and try and pick up the seeds,
usually leaving in frustration. Likewise, placing a lock of curly hair over
the bed would encourage the Linchetto to try and straighten it, and being
unable to, they would flee in despair.

Nox




From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Dec 13 05:59:54 2003
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 05:59:54 -0000
Subject: Yahoo Wins Again!
In-Reply-To: <brcv6q+dfi4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <bre9sq+sli4@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Martha"
<fakeplastikcynic at h...> wrote:

> You know, I seem to have the exact opposite problem. On the occasions 
> that I do post, my messages seem to come through twice (and I am 
> definitely not clicking more than once or anything like that). 
(snip)
> (Does anyone have any 
> idea why this happens, other than the fact that Yahoo is rubbish?)

Are you sending posts through your e-mail rather than from the "post"
option on the website? If yes, can you check your settings on your
e-mail (on Mozilla, it's Edit, Preferences, Mail & Newsgroups, Send
Format) to see what it is set to do when "sending messages in HTML
format and one or more recipients are not listed as being able to
receive HTML". Me, I have clicked "Convert the message to plain text
(some formatting may be lost)" but I think the default is "Send the
message in both plain text and HTML", which I think sends really *two*
messages.




From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Dec 13 06:01:13 2003
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 06:01:13 -0000
Subject: David's assignment (as well as a reply to Iggy)
In-Reply-To: <004f01c3c10f$495b5b60$b8361c40@aoldsl.net>
Message-ID: <bre9v9+kbo6@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Saitaina" <saitaina at w...> wrote:

> Oh lord, I am so glad I've dropped out of
> this...eww, Snape.

Says the woman who doodles naked Voldie on the cast of her broken arm.




From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Dec 13 06:06:51 2003
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 06:06:51 -0000
Subject: Happy Birthday, Laura and Neith!
In-Reply-To: <20031212200458.77604.qmail@web41103.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <brea9r+bibq@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Sheryll Townsend <s_ings at y...>
wrote:

> Today's birthday honourees (as you already know) are
> Laura and Neith. 

Happy Birthday, feeling-old Laura!

When *I* was 19, I was still excited about birthdays, eager to be
given presents. I still would be, if anyone still gave me presents. 

Happy Birthday, Neith!~

I *love* your ID, scribe of the great goddess of Per-Sedjet.

> Sheryll the very old (by comparison) Birthday Elf (44)

Sheryll the young little baby Birthday Elf.





From kelleythompson at gbronline.com  Sat Dec 13 06:51:36 2003
From: kelleythompson at gbronline.com (Kelley)
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 06:51:36 -0000
Subject: Jolly Reindeer Fact / a challenge
In-Reply-To: <brcrtc+euhh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <brecto+ord3@eGroups.com>

David wrote:
> Saity, who's not incapable of dishing it out herself, wrote:
> 
> > Don't be too sure,
> > I can get men to do quite a few things for
> > me.  It's a talent I possess.
> 
> That sounds distinctly like a challenge.
> 
> Name your activity, and I give you one week.
> 
> Merry Christmas
> 
> David >>>


Heehee!  Now, *that's* for another forum...

;-)

--Kelley




From fakeplastikcynic at hotmail.com  Sat Dec 13 10:52:56 2003
From: fakeplastikcynic at hotmail.com (Martha)
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 10:52:56 -0000
Subject: Yahoo Wins Again!/being old(ish)
In-Reply-To: <bre9sq+sli4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <brer28+1mf9@eGroups.com>

Martha:
<paraphrased> Yahoo is pants, etc.

Catlady:
> Are you sending posts through your e-mail rather than from 
the "post"
> option on the website? If yes, can you check your settings on your
> e-mail (on Mozilla, it's Edit, Preferences, Mail & Newsgroups, Send
> Format) to see what it is set to do when "sending messages in HTML
> format and one or more recipients are not listed as being able to
> receive HTML". Me, I have clicked "Convert the message to plain text
> (some formatting may be lost)" but I think the default is "Send the
> message in both plain text and HTML", which I think sends really 
*two*
> messages.

Martha: 
I congratulate you on your technical knowledge and giant computer 
brain that knows everything. However, that can't possibly be the 
answer because I only ever post messages using the "post" option on 
the list - never via email, as I don't trust email, not at all. I 
just can't work out why it would be doing it - especially as the 
second copy is usually labelled as having appeared after I've come 
offline.

Hmm.

When I checked back and saw that message about posting twice, posted 
twice - I went "Yearp!" Not only is Evil Overlord Yahoo making me 
repeat myself... but IT KNOWS WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT.

This is just too weird.

Laura Ingalls Huntley:
Well, it is now officially My Birthday.

God, I hate getting older.

P.S. Considering how depressing birthdays are at 19, I don't think 
I'll
be able to take it at 30 or 40. <snip snip>

Martha:
Laura, you are not alone. At 19 and at 20 I felt completely wretched -
 I spent weeks beforehand going "God I'm going to be so old and die 
alone smelling of wee and stale biscuits in a bedsit in Bristol with 
loads of stray cats..." etc. Now I'm 21 and I feel younger than I did 
then. (Going away to university and being given free money helped, 
even if I do have to start paying it back relatively soon and have no 
idea how I am going to do so.)

The weirdest thing, though, is that at 21 I still don't feel old 
enough to do a lot of grown-up things - but I have friends who are 
looking at buying houses, getting married, having kids... I guess 
that's our generation rebelling against rebellion. A t-shirt I once 
saw:

"Our parents' generation rebelled with sex and drugs. Our generation 
rebelled with sobriety and chastity. Somehow I think we got cheated."

~ Martha, off to Edinburgh tomorrow! Yay!




From macloudt at yahoo.co.uk  Sat Dec 13 11:56:48 2003
From: macloudt at yahoo.co.uk (Mary Ann)
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 11:56:48 -0000
Subject: What is maturity?
In-Reply-To: <1A292A60-2CF0-11D8-A524-000A95E29F3E@fandm.edu>
Message-ID: <breuq0+rugu@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Laura Ingalls Huntley 
<lhuntley at f...> wrote:

> And what *is* "maturity," anyway?  I ask you.  Because it seems to 
me 
> that the only people so terribly concerned with it are either a) 
> pre-teenagers or b) really, really boring and judgmental.
> 
> AND . . . *suddenly notices that a very large soapbox has 
materialized 
> under her feet.*  Erm . . . *steps off it sheepishly*.

:::::Mary Ann (35) delurks and grabs the soapbox from Laura.  Being 
a Big Woman, she can do this easily ;) :::::

It's such a shame that maturity and boringness (is that a word?) are 
so intertwined.  I see maturity as meaning to be responsible, and 
there's no reason why you can't be responsible and have fun at the 
same time.  I have 3 small children (one with special needs), help 
out at my older childrens' school, and am a Rainbow Guider (5-7 year 
old Girl Guides).  I'm literally surrounded by children, and 
therefore surrounded by responsibility, but I get as much enjoyment 
out of it as possible.  Last week at Rainbows, for instance, we 
hired a bouncy castle and the leaders spent as much time bouncing as 
the girls.  However, the whole time we were keeping an eye on the 
girls, warning them to not get too close/lie down/go spastic etc.  
Sure, some Anal Retentives would call me "immature", but I refute 
that as I was still fulfilling my role as caretaker of the girls.  I 
like to think that such behaviour on my part also shows the girls 
that growing up doesn't mean that the fun is over.

(What *wasn't* mature was not reading the bouncy castle literature 
properly beforehand and discovering that I'm 3 times over the 
maximum weight per person allowed.  Whoops.)

Happy belated birthday, Laura!  You'll be 35 one day ::::: runs and 
ducks:::::

Mary Ann ;) 





From przepla at ipartner.com.pl  Sat Dec 13 14:52:41 2003
From: przepla at ipartner.com.pl (Przemyslaw Plaskowicki)
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 15:52:41 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Coming of age in the WW
In-Reply-To: <3FD9B56A.4309.CBBFBB@localhost>
References: <br9vb0+pgoc@eGroups.com> <3FD9B56A.4309.CBBFBB@localhost>
Message-ID: <3FDB27B9.9070403@ipartner.com.pl>

 From Main list:

Shaun Hately wrote:

>On 11 Dec 2003 at 21:51, Geoff Bannister wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Geoff:
>>This reminds me of something that has really annoyed me whenever I 
>>read it.
>>
>>Umbridge told Harry and Co that they were banned from playing 
>>Quidditch ever again. That, of course, could only apply to Hogwarts. 
>>Presumably what she meant was ever again at the school.
>>
>>But my main irritation is the woman's arrogance in confiscating the 
>>brooms. Harry's broom is a valuable possession and is his own 
>>personal property; she has no right to remove it. Perhaps if he had 
>>felt more secure, he might have remonstrated with her. Whenever I 
>>read that section, I find myself echoing Hermione's words - "You hag, 
>>you evil hag", "That foul, lying, twisting old gargoyle", (words she 
>>used to describe the "truly delightful woman" after her inspection of 
>>Hagrid if you've lost the quote).
>>    
>>
>
>I don't know.. I had my own personal valuable property confiscated while I was at 
>school, on a couple of occasions - and it never even would have occurred to me 
>to protest about it. As far as I was concerned, the teacher had absolutely every 
>right to confiscate it, and I don't find it at all surprising that Harry would have a 
>similar attitude.
>
>  
>
I disagree. Technically teacher by confiscating anything from pupil 
commits a crime. Law specifically says what, when and by whom can be 
confiscated, and as far as I know there is no such law that permits 
teachers function as a law enforcement officers. Once, I successfully 
opposed my teacher when she confiscated my newspaper which I was reading 
under the table, saying that she has no authority to do so.

But then again, I live in Poland which does not have common law system 
like UK and US ;-).



-- 
Przemyslaw 'Pshemekan' Plaskowicki
Let the fear of danger be a spur to prevent it; he that fears not, gives advantage to the danger. (Francis Quarles)





From s_ings at yahoo.com  Sat Dec 13 15:42:05 2003
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 10:42:05 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] /being old(ish)
In-Reply-To: <brer28+1mf9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20031213154205.60006.qmail@web41107.mail.yahoo.com>

 --- Martha <fakeplastikcynic at hotmail.com> wrote: > 

> > Laura Ingalls Huntley:
> Well, it is now officially My Birthday.
> 
> God, I hate getting older.
> 
> P.S. Considering how depressing birthdays are at 19,
> I don't think 
> I'll
> be able to take it at 30 or 40. <snip snip>
> 
> Martha:
> Laura, you are not alone. At 19 and at 20 I felt
> completely wretched -
>  I spent weeks beforehand going "God I'm going to be
> so old and die 
> alone smelling of wee and stale biscuits in a bedsit
> in Bristol with 
> loads of stray cats..." etc. Now I'm 21 and I feel
> younger than I did 
> then. (Going away to university and being given free
> money helped, 
> even if I do have to start paying it back relatively
> soon and have no 
> idea how I am going to do so.)
> 
I've yet to have a birthday bother me, though we'll
see what turning 45 brings next summer. 

My sister, on the other, has always been bothered by
birthdays. Turning 34 bothered her so she went and got
her navel pierced. Year before last, after turning 38,
she got another tattoo. Lord only knows what she'll do
on turning 40 in couple months!

> The weirdest thing, though, is that at 21 I still
> don't feel old 
> enough to do a lot of grown-up things - but I have
> friends who are 
> looking at buying houses, getting married, having
> kids... I guess 
> that's our generation rebelling against rebellion. A
> t-shirt I once 
> saw:
> 
> "Our parents' generation rebelled with sex and
> drugs. Our generation 
> rebelled with sobriety and chastity. Somehow I think
> we got cheated."
> 
I'm 44 and don't always feel old enough to be doing
grown-up things. And I certainly don't feel my age.
This is aided to no end by working with teenagers, who
express constant disbelief that I'm old enough to have
a daughter who is 20. I'm always being told I don't
look old enough.

I have an aunt who says that the key to getting older
is to pick and age you like and stay there. Using
that, I suspect I've yet to pass my 20s. :-D

Sheryll

=====
http://www.livejournal.com/community/conventionalley/

______________________________________________________________________ 
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca



From drednort at alphalink.com.au  Sat Dec 13 23:08:36 2003
From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 10:08:36 +1100
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Coming of age in the WW
In-Reply-To: <3FDB27B9.9070403@ipartner.com.pl>
References: <3FD9B56A.4309.CBBFBB@localhost>
Message-ID: <3FDC36A4.20289.8728ED@localhost>

On 13 Dec 2003 at 15:52, Przemyslaw Plaskowicki wrote:

>  From Main list:
> 
> Shaun Hately wrote:
> 
> >On 11 Dec 2003 at 21:51, Geoff Bannister wrote:
> >
> >  
> >
> >>Geoff:
> >>This reminds me of something that has really annoyed me whenever I 
> >>read it.
> >>
> >>Umbridge told Harry and Co that they were banned from playing 
> >>Quidditch ever again. That, of course, could only apply to Hogwarts. 
> >>Presumably what she meant was ever again at the school.
> >>
> >>But my main irritation is the woman's arrogance in confiscating the 
> >>brooms. Harry's broom is a valuable possession and is his own 
> >>personal property; she has no right to remove it. Perhaps if he had 
> >>felt more secure, he might have remonstrated with her. Whenever I 
> >>read that section, I find myself echoing Hermione's words - "You hag, 
> >>you evil hag", "That foul, lying, twisting old gargoyle", (words she 
> >>used to describe the "truly delightful woman" after her inspection of 
> >>Hagrid if you've lost the quote).
> >>    
> >>
> >
> >I don't know.. I had my own personal valuable property confiscated while I was at 
> >school, on a couple of occasions - and it never even would have occurred to me 
> >to protest about it. As far as I was concerned, the teacher had absolutely every 
> >right to confiscate it, and I don't find it at all surprising that Harry would have a 
> >similar attitude.
> >
> >  
> >
> I disagree. Technically teacher by confiscating anything from pupil 
> commits a crime. Law specifically says what, when and by whom can be 
> confiscated, and as far as I know there is no such law that permits 
> teachers function as a law enforcement officers. Once, I successfully 
> opposed my teacher when she confiscated my newspaper which I was reading 
> under the table, saying that she has no authority to do so.
> 
> But then again, I live in Poland which does not have common law system 
> like UK and US ;-).

I think Polish law is very different (-8

First of all, I'm in Australia, just for the record - which also 
does to a great extent share the Common Law basis of British law.

Now - we know Wizarding Law is not identical to British Law 
(English or Scottish) though we don't know the precise differences.

But given that the Wizarding World was does seem to have had rather 
close contact with mainstream Britain prior to around 1692 - well, 
I think we can assume some similarities.

But there are important differences - for example, at Hogwarts, it 
seems to be *legal* for students to be beaten with horsewhips - 
while corporal punishment was still legal in British independent 
schools at the time the Harry Potter books are set, that would 
legally have gone too far.

But anyway - confiscation.

I *really* can't see any reason why teachers at Hogwarts wouldn't 
be allowed to confiscate things like broomsticks - either legally 
or socially.

In fact I would say that for most students at Hogwarts, this 
ability on the part of teachers would seem virtually like a fact of 
life - not something you question, even if you resented it.

I base that on two things.

(1) I do have some understanding of how laws work in this area.

(2) I experienced life in a British style boarding school in the 
late 1980s/early 1990s - so I think I have a reasonable grasp on 
the likely attitudes have in such schools.

A lot of people, I've noticed don't seem to understand that while 
Hogwarts is certainly a very unusual school in many ways, in a lot 
of ways, it's a fairly typical British boarding school with fairly 
typical British boarding school attitudes (in fact, if you want to 
get technical, JKR seems to have drawn on the British Boarding 
School story tradition - from the late 19th Century onwards, the 
'Boarding School Story' has been a staple in British children's 
literature. It is a *massive* genre of hundreds - probably 
thousands - of books, which millions of children have read over the 
years - and it has its own rules and conventions and the Harry 
Potter books follow these pretty well.)

I don't want to go into massive analysis of this point - but I 
quite often see threads in various Harry Potter forums from people 
who obviously have a limited understanding of the tradition the 
books are set within in. For example, Americans who can't 
understand why there are no cheerleaders at Hogwarts, or who refer 
to Graduation etc - just cultural differences.

I grew up reading British school stories - so I'm very familiar 
with those traditions. I also attended a very exclusive British-
style school which reinforced a lot of them. So when I look at the 
HP books, I think I see things some people don't.

And with regards to confiscation - while students might certainly 
resent it, I doubt many would think that the teacher really had no 
right to do it.

And purely legalistically, I would think she probably did.

Common Law is the key here - the doctrine of in loco parentis 
(where a teacher, or any other adult in authority, is actually able 
to act 'in place of the parent') is a Common Law principle and I 
would expect it is one that does apply at Hogwarts. In confiscating 
property for a student at Hogwarts, a teacher is not acting as a 
law enforcement officer - they are acting as a parent. A parent 
does have the right to take something off a child - so too does a 
teacher acting in loco parentis - and in a boarding school, where 
children seem to have fairly limited contact with their children 
(and that is true of Hogwarts), in loco parentis is likely to be a 
very real principle.

Taking a child's property and selling it - that would almost 
certainly be theft. Taking a child's property to temporarily (even 
for a fairly long period) deprive them of it as a punishment 
wouldn't even come close.

While bikes are almost certainly not as valuable as Harry's broom - 
well, at my school, if a bike owning boarder misbehaved, it wasn't 
that uncommon for their bike to be locked away for a few weeks or 
even a term. And while a particular case might be viewed with 
resentment, anger, or a perception that that particular case was 
unfair, I don't think the idea that the teacher didn't have the 
*right* to do it, would have occurred to most of us. Of course they 
had the right. They were a teacher. Some teachers abused their 
rights, sure - but the right was there and seemed almost like a 
force of nature.

I honestly think many Hogwarts students would see it precisely the 
same way.


Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought
Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html
(ISTJ)       | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 
"You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one
thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the 
facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be 
uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that 
need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil
Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia




From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Dec 13 23:43:31 2003
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 23:43:31 -0000
Subject: Yahoo Wins Again!/being old(ish)
In-Reply-To: <brer28+1mf9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <brg873+ur28@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Martha"
<fakeplastikcynic at h...> wrote:
> 
> I congratulate you on your technical knowledge and giant computer 
> brain that knows everything. 

No, that's me not me, that's Pshemekan.

> However, that can't possibly be the answer because I only ever post 
> messages using the "post" option on the list - never via email, 

Then, I'm as much in the dark as you about what Yahoo thinks it's doing.  




From alexpie at aol.com  Sun Dec 14 01:01:16 2003
From: alexpie at aol.com (alexpie at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 20:01:16 EST
Subject: Birthdays, aging, and such
Message-ID: <1dc.1688b7aa.2d0d105c@aol.com>


Neith wrote:
10 years ago I didn't want to get old, even
> though I wasn't afraid of future;it was time after that when I
> decided just let time slip and not to worry until I am at least 40

Forty?  You must do better than that!  I turned 47 this week, am a grossy 
underpaid copy editor, heavily in debt, and what I worry about most is the fate 
of Snape!
  My father once told me that everyone feels 19 inside (he was 70 at the 
time), and I'm beginning to believe him.
  Happy birthday to all the list Sagittarians, and may our next birthday see 
us reading Book 7 for the tenth time!
> > Saity, who's
not incapable of dishing it out
> herself, wrote:
> > 
> > > Don't be too sure,
> > > I can get men to do quite a few things for
> > > me.? It's a talent I possess.
BaHa, who, at 47, would put her talent for same against anyone, including 
those half her age!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From alexpie at aol.com  Sun Dec 14 04:35:48 2003
From: alexpie at aol.com (barbarahanson)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 04:35:48 -0000
Subject: Birthdays, aging, and screwups
Message-ID: <brgpb4+5235@eGroups.com>

Of course, I meant Book Six!!!  Even with the true optimism of the 
Sagittarian at *our* time of year, I would not expect Book Seven 
before 2005, at best! 
BaHa
PS--And do forgive the typo.  I meant grossly, not grossy, although 
grossy rather describes how those of us in publishing are paid anyway!




From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Sun Dec 14 15:22:42 2003
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 15:22:42 -0000
Subject: British boarding school stories (was Coming of age in the WW)
In-Reply-To: <3FDC36A4.20289.8728ED@localhost>
Message-ID: <brhv82+sc71@eGroups.com>

Shaun wrote:

> if you want to 
> get technical, JKR seems to have drawn on the British Boarding 
> School story tradition - from the late 19th Century onwards, the 
> 'Boarding School Story' has been a staple in British children's 
> literature. It is a *massive* genre of hundreds - probably 
> thousands - of books, which millions of children have read over 
the 
> years - and it has its own rules and conventions and the Harry 
> Potter books follow these pretty well.
> 
> I grew up reading British school stories - so I'm very familiar 
> with those traditions. 

I'd be interested to know which examples of this genre people have 
read, and any comparisons to Hogwarts (perhaps we should take this 
back to the main list?).

I can think of, in approximate order of publication:

"Stalky & Co", by Rudyard Kipling (1899).  Very dark, IMO.  The 
sense of the doomedness and futility of empire which pervades much 
of Kipling's work is an interesting comparison to the gathering 
storms of Voldermort's second rise in Harry Potter.  Although my 
memory is hazy, I think its characters do develop.

"Mike at Wrykin", and "Mike and Psmith", by PG Wodehouse (1909), who 
followed Mike and Psmith into the adult world, culminating in the 
classic Blandings story "Leave it to Psmith".  Here IMO the close 
parallel is the page time devoted to sport, with cricket taking the 
place of Quidditch.  In the first book, Mike is a cricket hero; in 
the second, he hates his new school so much he pretends he doesn't 
play - a slightly different authorial ploy to Umbridge's ban.

The Billy Bunter series, by Frank Richards (mostly between the wars 
and immediately post-war?).  There may not actually have 
been 'hundreds' in this series, but it felt like it.  Despite the 
huge number of books, BB never left the Remove, which I think is the 
third year of a Hogwarts-style boarding school for 11-18 year olds.  
(My day grammar school had a Remove, which was that year for the 
majority of the pupils.)  Mr Quelch, the latin master, had IIRC some 
resemblances to Snape, though not in appearance.

The Jennings series, by Anthony Buckeridge (sixties?).  I wouldn't 
mind trying these again as IIRC they were very funny.  About a dozen 
in all and he didn't get any older (than 11) either.  He was at what 
I think is called 'Prep School', aged about 9 - 13.  It's the sense 
of humour that in my mind marks these as similar to Harry Potter.  
(Wodehouse's sense of humour is absent from the 'Mike' books.)  
Buckeridge also wrote a shorter series about an older boy (I think 
at day school) called Rex Milligan.

I'm not sure to what extent I'd recommend any of the above to HP 
fans as an automatic 'if you like Harry you'll like this', but there 
they are for those who might be interested.

I mentioned the darkness of Kipling's book.  It's worth noting that 
CS Lewis based the milieu of the NICE in "That Hideous Strength", 
IMO a deeply disturbing book, on his experiences at Malvern, which 
he hated.  The experience of boarding school seems generally better 
at second hand.

I'm sure there are others but I can't think of them right now.

Any reminiscences?

David




From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Dec 14 19:12:34 2003
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 19:12:34 -0000
Subject: British boarding school stories (was Coming of age in the WW)
In-Reply-To: <brhv82+sc71@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <bricn2+i5o8@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "davewitley"
<dfrankiswork at n...> wrote:

> I'd be interested to know which examples of this genre people have 
> read, and any comparisons to Hogwarts (perhaps we should take this 
> back to the main list?).

I haven't read any except bits of Stalky long ago, but I have heard
that  Geoffrey Willans and Ronald Searle wrote and drew a couple of
school-story books named Molesworth in which "Hogwarts" appears as the
name of a school. Apparently, they are now out-of-print and highly
expensive collectibles, so I cannot check on this rumor myself.




From drednort at alphalink.com.au  Sun Dec 14 19:39:32 2003
From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 06:39:32 +1100
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: British boarding school stories (was Coming of age in the WW)
In-Reply-To: <bricn2+i5o8@eGroups.com>
References: <brhv82+sc71@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3FDD5724.27799.95E11@localhost>

On 14 Dec 2003 at 19:12, Catlady (Rita Prince Winston) wrote:

> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "davewitley"
> <dfrankiswork at n...> wrote:
> 
> > I'd be interested to know which examples of this genre people have 
> > read, and any comparisons to Hogwarts (perhaps we should take this 
> > back to the main list?).
> 
> I haven't read any except bits of Stalky long ago, but I have heard
> that  Geoffrey Willans and Ronald Searle wrote and drew a couple of
> school-story books named Molesworth in which "Hogwarts" appears as the
> name of a school. Apparently, they are now out-of-print and highly
> expensive collectibles, so I cannot check on this rumor myself.

Actually, it appears as the name of a play in 'How to be Topp' 
IIRC. I do have that somewhere, but can't put my hand on it right 
at this instant.


Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought
Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html
(ISTJ)       | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 
"You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one
thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the 
facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be 
uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that 
need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil
Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia




From drednort at alphalink.com.au  Sun Dec 14 22:16:38 2003
From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 09:16:38 +1100
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] British boarding school stories (was Coming of age in the WW)
In-Reply-To: <brhv82+sc71@eGroups.com>
References: <3FDC36A4.20289.8728ED@localhost>
Message-ID: <3FDD7BF6.26065.8DB59F@localhost>

On 14 Dec 2003 at 15:22, davewitley wrote:


> I'd be interested to know which examples of this genre people have 
> read, and any comparisons to Hogwarts (perhaps we should take this 
> back to the main list?).

I'll post here at least for the moment, because I'm not sure I can 
make enough comparisons to Hogwarts to justify it on the main list 
- it's been at least 13 or so years since I read most of these 
books.

This list won't be complete because I can't remember everyone of 
the books I read. And the order is pretty much just as they pop 
into my head. Some of the books are now in the public domain and 
available for legal download. If I know a link I'll add it (or 
rather I would have done if Project Gutenberg hadn't become 
unaccessible while I was typing it - I'll check for links again 
later - I'm fairly sure Tom Brown's Schooldays is available there 
at least).

'The Heart of the School' by Eustace Boyland. This one has special 
meaning for me. It's not actually British - it's Australian, but 
it's one of the British style schools, set just prior to World War 
I, and is very British in tone - it's actually been described as 
one of the most 'Imperial' of all boys stories. The reason it's 
special to me is because it's set in the school I attended and I 
read it in my first year at that school - I'd plucked it off the 
library shelves thinking it was just another school story, and then 
realised pretty rapidly where it was set - I spent days wandering 
around the school reading chapters at the actual locations they 
were set (when I could work them out - some things had moved around 
over the years - for example, the main dormitory in the book was 
actually the verandah outside the library when I was at the 
school.)

With this book, I can actually see some *possible* Hogwarts 
comparisons - I'll need to quickly outline some history to say why.

Education in Victoria, Australia, in the early twentieth century 
was dominated by the Six Great Schools - there was one University 
(The University of Melbourne), but in terms of 'High Schools', the 
state was *very* limited. There were only one state run High School 
which only opened in 1905 - so the Six Schools (all private 
schools, referred to in British style as Public Schools) were 
*incredibly* significant parts of society - they were the only real 
route to university. The Six Schools were all religious in nature - 
two Church of England, two Presbyterian, one Methodist, one 
Catholic, and the sectarian nature of the schools added to their 
massive competition - and the competition was fierce, both academic 
and sporting - crowds of over 100,000 people turned up to some 
sporting fixtures, and there were periods where there was so much 
ill-will between the schools that competition was banned (hasn't 
changed much - the Six Schools are now all part of the Associated 
Public Schools of Victoria, and just last week students of one 
school were accused of attacking the champion athlete of another).

Anyway - the potential similarities with Hogwarts in The Heart of 
the School, primarily relates to how fierce the competition between 
the schools is, in comparison to house competition at Hogwarts.

While at the school, Peter (I think that was the name of the main 
characer) is basically taught to view those of the other schools as 
his rivals. Some of the relationships with other schools are 
relatively cordial - some are positively warlike. And that's 
natural.

*However* the book ends with Peter dying in his bed at home, 
several years after he left the school (hopefully that doesn't wind 
up being a similarity with HP - the main character dying!). He's 
come back from the war horribly injured (which unfortunately was 
something that happened to a lot of the boys from these schools at 
these times - they tended to become the junior officers of 
Australia's new armed forces and they died leading their men in 
incredible numbers). And as he lies there dying, he tooks about how 
he was wounded and while he lay in no-mans land, he was rescued by 
men who'd been to the rival schools at great risk to their own 
lives.

Part of the point of the book, and of that end sequence, is one 
that I think does have parallels for Harry Potter - the basic 
message is that schoolboy rivalries are something for children. And 
that at some point, when the dangers are real enough, there comes a 
time to put them aside and stand together against the common enemy.

Reminds me more than a bit of the Sorting Hat in Order of the 
Phoenix.

(Incidentally this is not just a matter of a story - one of the 
first armed units formed in Victoria at the start of World War I 
was the Public Schools Batallion - made up of recent graduates from 
the Six Schools. And in World War II, when the Army decided to take 
over one of the schools as a headquarters, within a day of that 
occurring, two of the other schools had offered to take those 
students and staff into their own schools as soon as possible, for 
as long as necessary).

Let's see, other books.

Well, I've read most of Anthony Buckeridge's Jenning's books which 
have already been mentioned and I think they are hillarious.

Enid Blyton, of course - The Naughtiest Girl books, Mallory Towers, 
St Clares - most of her school stories - not the best in my 
opinion, but they were easily accessible. 'The Naughtiest Girl' 
books might have some interest for showing a rather interesting 
variation on the Prefect system.

'Tom Brown's Schooldays' by Thomas Hughes. In many ways, the 
classic school story. Dr Arnold might be interesting for 
comparative purposes with Dumbledore, I suppose. 

'The Forbidden Study' by Hylton Cleaver - very chilling in many 
ways, secret passages in a school.

'The Impossible Prefect' by Hubert Robinson - about a boy who to 
his absolute amazement and shock is made a Prefect - and winds up 
doing an extremely good job of it. So could be of interest to Ron 
fan's.

'The White House Boys' by R.A.H. Goodyear - some stuff in there 
about inter-house sporting rivalries, also a situation where two 
close friends wind up estranged from each other, because one of 
them is just too stubborn to give ground - but in the end when they 
are needed, they stand together.

'The Glory of Graystone' by John Roberts - don't remember that one 
too well - I *think* it's about a boy who though repeated minor 
misbehaviour faces expulsion from his school - because it's minor 
his headmaster gives him a chance - he won't be expelled if he does 
something for the glory of his school.

'The Fifth Form at St. Dominic's' by Talbot Baines Reed - famous 
for its opening line, that often amuses those with a gutter sense 
of humour and certain pre(mis-)conceptions about boarding schools: 
"There is a queer elasticity about young boys."

'The Cock-House at Fellsgarth' also by Talbor Baines Reed. IIRC, 
not a bad insight into house sports.

'Jeremy at Crale' by Hugh Spencer Walpole - online at 
http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks03/0301511h.html

That's all I can immediately remember - I did rad a lot more of 
them though.








 
Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought
Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html
(ISTJ)       | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 
"You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one
thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the 
facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be 
uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that 
need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil
Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia




From drednort at alphalink.com.au  Sun Dec 14 22:30:41 2003
From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 09:30:41 +1100
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: British boarding school stories (was Coming of age in the WW)
In-Reply-To: <3FDD5724.27799.95E11@localhost>
References: <bricn2+i5o8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3FDD7F41.26480.9A8FC7@localhost>

On 15 Dec 2003 at 6:39, Shaun Hately wrote:

> On 14 Dec 2003 at 19:12, Catlady (Rita Prince Winston) wrote:
>
> > I haven't read any except bits of Stalky long ago, but I have heard
> > that  Geoffrey Willans and Ronald Searle wrote and drew a couple of
> > school-story books named Molesworth in which "Hogwarts" appears as the
> > name of a school. Apparently, they are now out-of-print and highly
> > expensive collectibles, so I cannot check on this rumor myself.
> 
> Actually, it appears as the name of a play in 'How to be Topp' 
> IIRC. I do have that somewhere, but can't put my hand on it right 
> at this instant.

Oops - in case I wasn't clear here, 'How to be Topp' is one of the Molesworth books.

The others are 'Down With Skool', 'Back in the Jug Agane', and 
'Whiz for Atoms'.

http://www.stcustards.free-online.co.uk will give people a taste of 
the humour of these books.



Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought
Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html
(ISTJ)       | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 
"You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one
thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the 
facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be 
uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that 
need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil
Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia




From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Dec 14 23:12:58 2003
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 23:12:58 -0000
Subject: British boarding school stories (was Coming of age in the WW)
In-Reply-To: <3FDD7F41.26480.9A8FC7@localhost>
Message-ID: <briqpq+ojlm@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Shaun Hately" <drednort at a...>
wrote:
> 
> Oops - in case I wasn't clear here, 'How to be Topp' is one of the
Molesworth books.
> 
> The others are 'Down With Skool', 'Back in the Jug Agane', and 
> 'Whiz for Atoms'.
> 
> http://www.stcustards.free-online.co.uk will give people a taste of 
> the humour of these books.

http://www.stcustards.free-online.co.uk/titlepage.htm includes the
words "Wizard Wheezes"!




From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Mon Dec 15 01:01:30 2003
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 01:01:30 -0000
Subject: Part vampires
In-Reply-To: <brbki6+ifnc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <brj15b+jvoe@eGroups.com>

Pippin:

> There are part-vampires in both folklore and literature. 
> 
> In Rowling's world we have already met  part giants and a part 
> Veela. They appear human but have attenuated characteristics 
> of the non-human parent. A part vampire would presumably be 
> much the same; recognizably human but with some traces of the 
> other species, such as a nasty disposition, talent for the Dark 
> Arts, an affinity with bats, a preference for low light, and 
superb  
> mind powers. 

To help HPFGU members who may have doubts about their friends and 
acquaintances, I quote the following extract from the Guidelines for 
the Regulation of Non-wizarding Part-humans, Section 3, Annex G, 
Appendix iii, Tab b:

"Full vampire:

Sucks human blood
Has razor sharp fangs
Flies bat-like
Spreads hypnotic spell
Only goes out at night
Snarls at Dumbledore
Can be killed by properly accredited Slayer with wooden stake

Half vampire

Expert in potions
Is unsympathetic to dental problems
Swoops around like an overgrown bat
Sprays spit when angry
Maintains a low light working environment
Sneers at Longbottom
Has aversion to foolish wand-waving

Quarter vampire

Likes tomato juice
Gets teeth stuck in toffee
Is airsick
Has BO problem
Vacations in Britain
Quails at McGonagall
Will not touch sausages on cocktail sticks

Metaphorical vampire

Devours life force
Tortures supporters
Telepathically travels long distances in snake form
Very name is feared
Operates at full capacity underwater and underground
Screams 'Leave him! He's mine!'
Survives disincorporation"

Hope that helps

D




From boggles at earthlink.net  Mon Dec 15 02:11:38 2003
From: boggles at earthlink.net (Jennifer Boggess Ramon)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 20:11:38 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Birthdays, aging, and such
In-Reply-To: <1dc.1688b7aa.2d0d105c@aol.com>
References: <1dc.1688b7aa.2d0d105c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <p05210600bc02c8b5b92f@[192.168.1.100]>

At 8:01 PM -0500 12/13/03, alexpie at aol.com wrote:
>
>   My father once told me that everyone feels 19 inside (he was 70 at the
>time), and I'm beginning to believe him.

Reminds me of the Joe Jackson song, "19 Forever" . . .

-- 

  - Boggles, aka J. C. B. Ramon			boggles(at)earthlink.net
"It is not knowledge, but the act of learning, not possession but the 
act of getting there, which grants the greatest enjoyment. "
	- Gauss, in a Letter to Bolyai, 1808.



From joym999 at aol.com  Mon Dec 15 02:44:03 2003
From: joym999 at aol.com (joywitch_m_curmudgeon)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 02:44:03 -0000
Subject: Part vampires
In-Reply-To: <brj15b+jvoe@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <brj75j+mjm4@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "davewitley" 
<dfrankiswork at n...> wrote:

> To help HPFGU members who may have doubts about their friends and 
> acquaintances, I quote the following extract from the Guidelines 
for 
> the Regulation of Non-wizarding Part-humans, Section 3, Annex G, 
> Appendix iii, Tab b:
> 
> "Full vampire:
> 
> Sucks human blood
> Has razor sharp fangs
> Flies bat-like
> Spreads hypnotic spell
> Only goes out at night
> Snarls at Dumbledore
> Can be killed by properly accredited Slayer with wooden stake


Hmmm.  I don't know any of those, I don't think!

 
> Half vampire
> 
> Expert in potions
> Is unsympathetic to dental problems
> Swoops around like an overgrown bat
> Sprays spit when angry
> Maintains a low light working environment
> Sneers at Longbottom
> Has aversion to foolish wand-waving

Snape!  Snape!  I knew it!

> Quarter vampire
> 
> Likes tomato juice
> Gets teeth stuck in toffee
> Is airsick
> Has BO problem
> Vacations in Britain
> Quails at McGonagall
> Will not touch sausages on cocktail sticks

Uh-oh.  These all apply to....well....me.

--Joywitch, nervously




From koukla_es at yahoo.es  Mon Dec 15 12:14:16 2003
From: koukla_es at yahoo.es (koukla_es)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 12:14:16 -0000
Subject: ..and this is me combining posts.
In-Reply-To: <1A292A60-2CF0-11D8-A524-000A95E29F3E@fandm.edu>
Message-ID: <brk8io+os72@eGroups.com>


> Neith:
> > Seriously now, don't be so. Nineteen is a wonderful age, more 
even so if you're still studying and without responsibilities. In any 
case, I understand you, because 10 years ago I didn't want to get 
old, even though I wasn't afraid of future;it was time after that 
when I decided just let time slip and not to worry until I am at 
least 40.
> 
 Laura: Happy Birthday to you too, Neith!  Although, I have to ask:  
What 
> *exactly* do you mean be "without responsibilities"?  I happen to 
take 
> my studying v. seriously, you know. ^_~ It might *seem* like all 
frats  and keg parties, but mostly it's just *paying* to work your 
ass off, instead of *getting* paid to do it.

Many thanks, Laura! I hoped you had a good day!

 And yes, you're right and I apologize sincerely: I know studing is 
really hard, even more if you take things seriously (and I do). I 
didn't mean students spend their life only going to fraternities and 
parties and so on; I myself had lessons all morning and part of the 
afternoon, and the rest of the time I was or studying or working at 
the students' reresentation. And as I lived at home (in Spain you 
ususally leave at your parent's during the Uni). I think I was maybe 
driven by the fact that when I turned 20, my parents split up, and I 
remained with my father, having to cope with studies, housework (my 
father co-operates, too), .... And just after that I started working 
(payed work, at last).  And now, I'm working, studying, trying to 
have personal life,.... 


But I say it again; I didn't mean to offend, and I wrote in the spur 
of the moment, so sorry.
 
> (snip)> 
> Hmm . . . I'm not really afraid of the future either.  Well, maybe 
a 
> bit.  I *don't* want to enter the work force, really.  Most jobs 
seem . 
> . . well, horribly boring.  I really can't imagine not studying and 
> learning everyday.  *thinks* Maybe I can be a research scientist.
> 
> Is there any way you can just stay in a school forever?  Really, 
it's 
> all I'm good at.

I didn't want to, also. I studied Law, and I didn't want to beome a 
lwayer. I felt more inclined towards academic work. And so I had the 
opportunity of having a scholarship to teach and "research" (well, 
you know it's not the same in social sciences): I taught 
International and EC Law for three years and it was a good time.


Regards,

Neith





From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk  Mon Dec 15 15:45:30 2003
From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 15:45:30 -0000
Subject: British boarding school stories (was Coming of age in the WW)
In-Reply-To: <bricn2+i5o8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <brkkuq+iam6@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince 
Winston)" <catlady at w...> wrote:
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "davewitley"
> <dfrankiswork at n...> wrote:
> 
> > I'd be interested to know which examples of this genre people 
have 
> > read, and any comparisons to Hogwarts (perhaps we should take 
this 
> > back to the main list?).
> 
> I haven't read any except bits of Stalky long ago, but I have heard
> that  Geoffrey Willans and Ronald Searle wrote and drew a couple of
> school-story books named Molesworth in which "Hogwarts" appears as 
the
> name of a school. Apparently, they are now out-of-print and highly
> expensive collectibles, so I cannot check on this rumor myself.

June:
Expensive collectibles - how delightful because I have the entire 
canon of these masterworks at home.  

the order of these books is:


Down with Skool
How to be Topp
Whizz for Atoms 
Back in the Jug Agane


The leading character is Nigel Molesworth who narrates the story of 
his life at the minor public school, St Custards using his own 
irresistable spelling.  

I bought How to be Topp when I was twelve and never ever stopped 
loving these books.

As I recall, Hogwarts is the name of an Elizabethan school depicted 
in a flashback of old times.  

Memorable characters include his younger brother Molesworth 2, the 
Headmaster Grimes, Sigismond the Mad Maths Master, Basil Fotherington-
Thomas (the school weedy boy), Molesworth's best friend Peason and 
the Headboy Grabber who is also the richest boy in the school and 
always wins everything.

Incidentally I picked up my second hand edition of the Omnibus 
Edition at a stall for exactly one pound...

And I actually learned more latin from these books than I ever did in 
class.

June




From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com  Mon Dec 15 17:19:49 2003
From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 12:19:49 EST
Subject: I just can't believe this... 
Message-ID: <148.1ebd03df.2d0f4735@aol.com>

http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/hpmain.html 

*shakes head*  
 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk  Mon Dec 15 18:43:47 2003
From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 18:43:47 -0000
Subject: I just can't believe this...
In-Reply-To: <148.1ebd03df.2d0f4735@aol.com>
Message-ID: <brkvd3+5msc@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, IAmLordCassandra at a... wrote:
> http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/hpmain.html 
> 
> *shakes head*  
>  
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Sadly I can believe this, only too well...

I never know whether to laugh or cry that such nonsense is still 
being promoted as belief.  One thing I do wonder, very much is 
whether these people have actually read the books, because if they 
had they would not be saying Harry Potter and Wicca in the same 
sentence.  The books do not at any point identify with Wicca, or 
promote the Wiccan view of magic.  That's not a criticism of Wiccan 
belief either, because I will state once again I respect all faiths 
and respect all views...

Except intolerance.

June




From cwood at tattersallpub.com  Mon Dec 15 18:49:28 2003
From: cwood at tattersallpub.com (mstattersall)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 18:49:28 -0000
Subject: I just can't believe this...
In-Reply-To: <148.1ebd03df.2d0f4735@aol.com>
Message-ID: <brkvno+aoa0@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, IAmLordCassandra at a... wrote:
> http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/hpmain.html 
> 
> *shakes head*  
>  

I've actually met a couple of people who believe this stuff. They 
live their entire lives in fear of everything. How sad.
Ms. Tattersall




From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk  Mon Dec 15 19:09:54 2003
From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 19:09:54 -0000
Subject: Saddam's Message to George
Message-ID: <brl0u2+cp9m@eGroups.com>

Someone in the UK has just emailed me this one...

-

After numerous rounds of "We don't even know if Saddam is still 
alive", Saddam himself decided to send George W. a letter in his own 
handwriting to let him know he was still in the game. Bush opened 
the letter and it appeared to contain a coded message: 
 
370HSSV-0773H. 
 
Bush was baffled, so he typed it out and e-mailed it to Colin 
Powell. Colin and his aides had no clue either so they sent it to 
the CIA. No one could solve it, so it went on to the NSA, then MIT, 
NASA and the Secret Service. 
 
Eventually they asked the British Security Agency,  M16, for help. 
Five minutes after receiving the letter, the director of  M16 
telephoned the White House: "Tell the President he's holding the 
letter upside down...." 

June




From joym999 at aol.com  Mon Dec 15 19:47:54 2003
From: joym999 at aol.com (joywitch_m_curmudgeon)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 19:47:54 -0000
Subject: I just can't believe this...
In-Reply-To: <148.1ebd03df.2d0f4735@aol.com>
Message-ID: <brl35a+c67g@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, IAmLordCassandra at a... wrote:
> http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/hpmain.html 
> 
> *shakes head*  


My feeling about these anti-HP morons is that I'd rather have them 
focus on preventing children from reading HP than on their other 
freedom-trampling activities, which are generally even worse.

So, I thought I'd take it upon myself to review wonderful work of our 
friends at The Cutting Edge.  Here's my review of their review of 
SS/PS:

http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1397.cfm

There are some real gems of idiocy here.  Like their comments about 
Harry's scar: "Of course, a Christian would be immediately alerted to 
this turn of events because soon a supernaturally powerful global 
leader will demand everyone on earth take some sort of a mark in 
exactly this place on the body."

And this one: "all through this book, any non-witch folk -- like 
Vernon and Petunia -- are depicting in disgusting language."  
Disgusting language?

The Sorcerer's Stone is "the occult symbol of reaching the final 
stage in the quest for eternal life."  Wow.

There are a lot of blatant lies in this, not surprisingly, like the 
supposed quote which calls the Dursleys "dumber than a box of rocks" 
and claims that the books describes all Muggles as being "physically 
obscene."  I think that means fat, but I'm not sure.

There are also the usual comments about supposed drug use ("The drug 
message in this book is clear. To reach your goals in life like Harry 
Potter, you need to know how to make drugs and take drugs in just the 
right way or else you are a 'dunderhead' and will never succeed.") 
and ghosts and alternative realities.  Also, as usual, the reviewer 
quotes Quirrell's comment that "There is no good or evil, there is 
only power, and those too weak to seek it" as if it were JKR's 
philosophy of life.

There's a nice analysis of the colors used in the HP books, worthy of 
LOON membership.  Apparently, the color green is Satan's favorite 
color!  (You learn something new every day!)  This, of course, is 
further evidence of the evilness of poor green-eyed Harry, not to 
mention emerald-cloaked McGonagall.  I wonder, does that mean Irish 
people are all evil, too?

This dude even catches the green icing on the cake and the green ink 
on the envelope from Hogwarts.  He or she read pretty carefully for 
someone who hates this stuff.  However, his or her attention lapsed 
when reading about the colors of the different houses.  We're told 
that it is significant that the one "black magic house,"  Slytherin, 
has green (Satan's color, remember?) as its official color. 
But: "Isn't it interesting that Rowling does not tell us what the 
official color is for any of the other fraternities?"  Uh, yes she 
does.

Oh, and the fact that the Hogwarts Express is "scarlet" is suspect, 
too.  Good thing the reviewer overlooked Gryffindor's house color, or 
I'm sure we would have gotten a diatribe about evil goings-on in the 
scarlet tower.

The reviewer claims that "Rowling consistently depicts Satanism 
correctly."  The description of the way Voldemort curses Harry but 
fails to kill him and then loses his powers is, apparently evidence 
of this: "If the magic power of the intended victim is stronger than 
the originator of the curse believed it to be, or if the curse is not 
correctly cast, the curse will rebound back upon the person who threw 
it in the first place.  Once again, Rowling demonstrates a clear 
understanding of actual Witchcraft, and depicts it correctly."  How 
do they know this, I wonder?

Here's some more, this time complaints about wand contents: "This 
wand contained the three elements favored most by Satanists:  
Unicorn, Phoenix, and Dragons.  Both the Unicorns and Phoenix Birds 
are symbols of Antichrist, while the Dragon is clearly Satan 
[Revelation 12:9]"  I didn't realize that the Bible talked about 
unicorns, phoenixes and dragons.  Is that in the New Testament?

Another complaint is that the book describes the forbidden practice 
of drinking blood.  The fact that it is the villian who does this is 
ignored.  (I guess the reviewere is a Voldemort supporter).  In any 
case, they definitely don't like unicorns:  "Further, the symbolism 
here is unbelievable:  since the Unicorn is a symbol of the coming 
Antichrist, this scene means he receives a fatal wound; doesn't this 
sound terribly like the prophesied fatal wound of Antichrist in 
Revelation 13:3, where the entire world goes after the Beast in 
amazement after he is resurrected from his fatal wound?"

A few more goodies: "The fundamental occult/Communist philosophy that 
the "Ends Justify The Means" permeates this entire book."  Now we're 
communists, no less.  Raise the red flag high!

Here's a warning: "children will think Harry and his friends have so 
much fun using Witchcraft in the everyday part of their lives, that 
they will want to become witches and wizards so they can have this 
much fun, too."

Another warning, certainly an interesting bit of analysis:

"Possible reference to homosexuality .  When I was first researching 
Harry Potter, I examined several pro-Potter websites. The author of 
one of the articles said that one of the probable developments she 
felt would occur in the latter books was the advent of homosexuality 
in the story theme. She said such activity was only hinted at in the 
first books.  With this thought in mind, you will better understand 
this sentence.

'Professor Flitwick [Charms teacher] put the class into pairs to 
practice [levitating].  Harry's partner was Seamus Finnigan (which 
was a relief, because Neville had been trying to catch his eye).' [p. 
171] We shall see if homosexuality does develop in any of the last 
three books, because in the first three, this is the only possible 
reference to it."

Neville's trying to catch Harry's eye is a possible reference to 
homosexuality?  I guess it's fortunate that the reviewer didn't go 
off on the expression "swish and flick."  

But the shining gem of this collection of nonsense is the reviewer's 
outrage at the P/S stone itself, and in particular the Elixir of Life 
and the age of Nicolas Flamel:

"Do you realize Rowling has just made the creator of the Sorcerer's 
Stone 666 years old?  Do you realize what this means?  Since the 
number, '666', is a symbol of Antichrist and his Mark of the Beast 
[Revelation 13:18] and since Rowling ties this number to the Elixir 
of Life, Harry Potter is teaching children that the way to achieve 
eternal life [Elixir of Life] is to obey the Antichrist and take his 
Mark of the Beast!"

There's some more fun with numbers, too.  Apparently, the number 11 
is "sacred to the occultist," so that the fact that Harry is 11 years 
old, the Hogwarts Express leaves and 11:00, and that his wand is 11 
inches long, is all suspect.  What do these people do, hide their 
heads under the pillow at 11:00 every day?  Lock their 11 year olds 
in the attic?  Yeesh!

These people are total fruitcakes.  I hope they enjoy themselves, 
ranting about a children's book, the sales of which they will have 
very little impact on.  Anybody ignorant enough to believe this crap 
would believe anything.

--Joywitch, green and Satantic







From lhuntley at fandm.edu  Mon Dec 15 19:52:52 2003
From: lhuntley at fandm.edu (Laura Ingalls Huntley)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 14:52:52 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] I just can't believe this...
In-Reply-To: <148.1ebd03df.2d0f4735@aol.com>
Message-ID: <4470A9A4-2F38-11D8-A524-000A95E29F3E@fandm.edu>


> http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/hpmain.html
>
> *shakes head*

Teehee.

. . . Oh, was it inappropriate to laugh, just then?  *ducks head* Sorry.

Whenever I read these *really* over-the-top website I just get this 
niggling suspicion that the creator is trying to mess with someone in a 
big way.  You know?  Someone is either doing this for a) a nice laugh 
or b) a pretty penny or c) both.

I mean, take a second to just *appreciate* that graphic.  Evil Unicorns 
Have Come Again.  This ties in with the theory that the unicorn that LV 
kills in PS/SS is actually The Antichrist (who has received his 'fatal 
wound'). Teeheehee.  Why does this fill me with glee?  Bad Laura.  
Wrong.

You know, this guy is a self-proclaimed ex-Satanist (although you'd 
*think* a Satanist would know the difference between Satanism and 
Wicca).  My theory?  He's still working for the Dark Side.  Yep.  
Poisoning the minds of the innocent against wonderful allegorical Harry 
Potter in accordance with his Evil Agenda.  Let's all fear the 
Satanists and their Really Cunning Plans (tm).

*runs off giggling like a madwoman*

Laura (who notes that the man responsible for this site actually *did* 
read the books -- or, at least, he quotes them extensively.)




From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com  Mon Dec 15 20:03:26 2003
From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 15:03:26 EST
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Saddam's Message to George
Message-ID: <4c.260bc242.2d0f6d8e@aol.com>

LOL! 

I figured that out before I got to the end.  At first I thought it was 
L33t...then I looked at it upside down XXD 

^_^ 

~Cassie~ 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From confusedandpronetowander at hotmail.com  Mon Dec 15 19:41:56 2003
From: confusedandpronetowander at hotmail.com (BelleDameSansMerci)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 19:41:56 -0000
Subject: staying in school forever
In-Reply-To: <brk8io+os72@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <brl2q4+cqte@eGroups.com>

<< Is there any way you can just stay in a school forever? Really,
it's all I'm good at.>>

Funny you should say that. At this point in my academic career, I'm 
pretty much going to be in school forever. When I started university 
four years ago, I was planning on joining a police force, hopefully 
making detective, and eventually being trained as a profiler. 
However, very soon after I had begun studying criminology I realized 
who corrupt and reactionary the system was, and I no longer wanted to 
be part of it. Especially after being a member of a group that drives 
down to a medium security prison and talks to some of the guys 
serving life sentences.  

Instead, I had come up with the idea that I would go to law school 
and become a defence lawyer, with the intent of keeping as many 
people as possible out of jail (an unpopular view, I know). I toyed 
with this for awhile, and then earlier this year I realized how many 
people were entering law school, too many to realistically practice, 
and heard some horror stories from a few people...

I'm graduating in April with a B.Soc. in Criminology (Honours) and a 
concentration in Psychology. I'm going to grad school to get my MA in 
criminology, and then hopefully I'm off to British Columbia to get my 
Ph.D. At this point I'm planning on becoming a University professor, 
and doing research either centering around the criminality of women, 
or sex offenders. So, technically, I will be in school forever (much 
to the chagrin of my parents and their bank balance, haha).

Reminds me of an add campaign that I saw awhile ago:

"When they told you to stay in school, they didn't mean forever"

Cheers,
Amber





From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com  Mon Dec 15 20:53:27 2003
From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 15:53:27 EST
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: I just can't believe this...
Message-ID: <184.23e92724.2d0f7947@aol.com>

Joywitch: 


> My feeling about these anti-HP morons is that I'd rather have them 
> focus on preventing children from reading HP than on their other 
> freedom-trampling activities, which are generally even worse.
> 
> So, I thought I'd take it upon myself to review wonderful work of our 
> friends at The Cutting Edge.  Here's my review of their review of 
> SS/PS:
> 
> http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1397.cfm 

<lots of snipping>

> 
> 
> These people are total fruitcakes.  I hope they enjoy themselves, 
> ranting about a children's book, the sales of which they will have 
> very little impact on.  Anybody ignorant enough to believe this crap 
> would believe anything.
> 
> --Joywitch, green and Satantic

Cassie here: 

Very good points. I didn't read all the articles...I stopped the instant I 
saw they thought the books advocated the killing of babies.  

Mind if I quote you?  A 'friend' of mine uses this site against HP as though 
it were the Bible itself...just incase I can't resist temptation and need to 
slap him in the face...some might come in handy XXD 

~Cassie~ 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com  Mon Dec 15 20:57:55 2003
From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 15:57:55 EST
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] I just can't believe this...
Message-ID: <5b.437b8973.2d0f7a53@aol.com>

Laura: 


> Teehee.
> 
> . . . Oh, was it inappropriate to laugh, just then?  *ducks head* Sorry.
> 
> Whenever I read these *really* over-the-top website I just get this 
> niggling suspicion that the creator is trying to mess with someone in a 
> big way.  You know?  Someone is either doing this for a) a nice laugh 
> or b) a pretty penny or c) both.
> 
> I mean, take a second to just *appreciate* that graphic.  Evil Unicorns 
> Have Come Again.  This ties in with the theory that the unicorn that LV 
> kills in PS/SS is actually The Antichrist (who has received his 'fatal 
> wound'). Teeheehee.  Why does this fill me with glee?  Bad Laura.  
> Wrong.
> 
> You know, this guy is a self-proclaimed ex-Satanist (although you'd 
> *think* a Satanist would know the difference between Satanism and 
> Wicca).  My theory?  He's still working for the Dark Side.  Yep.  
> Poisoning the minds of the innocent against wonderful allegorical Harry 
> Potter in accordance with his Evil Agenda.  Let's all fear the 
> Satanists and their Really Cunning Plans (tm).
> 
> *runs off giggling like a madwoman*
> 
> Laura (who notes that the man responsible for this site actually *did* 
> read the books -- or, at least, he quotes them extensively.)

Cassie:  

LoL. I don't take this site seriously.  However, I do have the urge to write 
to the owner and request the 5 minutes of my life I lost reading the articles. 
 Some people do take it seriously though. I've had anti-HPers quote it to me 
as though it were fact. 

~Cassie~ 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk  Mon Dec 15 21:08:23 2003
From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 21:08:23 -0000
Subject: staying in school forever
In-Reply-To: <brl2q4+cqte@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <brl7s7+8r6c@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "BelleDameSansMerci" 
<confusedandpronetowander at h...> wrote:
>> 
> I'm graduating in April with a B.Soc. in Criminology (Honours) and 
a 
> concentration in Psychology. I'm going to grad school to get my MA 
in 
> criminology, and then hopefully I'm off to British Columbia to get 
my 
> Ph.D. At this point I'm planning on becoming a University 
professor, 
> and doing research either centering around the criminality of 
women, 
> or sex offenders. So, technically, I will be in school forever 
(much 
> to the chagrin of my parents and their bank balance, haha).
> 
> Reminds me of an add campaign that I saw awhile ago:
> 
> "When they told you to stay in school, they didn't mean forever"

Go for it, I say.  I used to work in a UK university (in support) 
and although it's often poverty row for a good while, get on the 
Professor salary scale and things become very different indeed.  

And that cynicism aside, it's good to think that there'll be a 
culturally well-rounded academic who reads the HP books.

June





From tabouli at unite.com.au  Mon Dec 15 22:36:43 2003
From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 09:36:43 +1100
Subject: British boarding school stories
Message-ID: <002001c3c35b$edba84d0$32f832d2@useriq2qgc104q>

No-one's mentioned my favorite British boarding school stories, namely the books on the Marlow family by Antonia Forest.  Excellent, those.  Malory Towers and St Clares, but with realism and characterisation and plausibility.  In fact, so many of Enid's stock characters (the twins starting at a girl's boarding school, the spoilt whinger, the troublemaker, the strict teacher, the stressed swot, etc.) appear in fully fleshed out form in Antonia's books I was once almost tempted to compare and contrast the series in an M. Ed. degree.  Mercifully, reason prevailed.

There are four school stories and six set during the holidays (published betwen 1948 and 1982), which is a departure from the usual trend.  They are as follows:

Autumn Term (12yo twins with 4 distinguished older sisters start at boarding school)
The Marlows and the Traitor (set during holidays: 3 youngest Marlows get kidnapped by a spy)
Falconer's Lure (set during holidays: the Marlows move to the country and Nicola takes up falconry)
End of Term (school story centred on the end of year Christmas play)
Peter's Room (the Marlows & next door neighbour Patrick do a Brontes based roleplay over Christmas)
The Thuggery Affair (two of the Marlows & Patrick run in with a local gang)
The Ready-Made Family (19yo family genius Karen comes home from her 1st term at Oxford announcing that she is marrying a 41yo widower with three kids)
Cricket Term (school story centred around the interform cricket tournament)
Attic Term (school story centred around the beautiful, scatty Ginty's relationship with Patrick)
Run Away Home (the Marlows help an abducted boy return to Switzerland)

It's fascinating to compare these with the more formulaic school stories written in the same era, if you can get hold of them (only the first one is still in print, as it's been re-released as a children's classic).  So many of the classic school story conventions don't apply.  Teacher and adults in general are fallible and often unfair.  Villains and unpopular kids don't always reform.  Sex and death actually exist, people die in the books, two of the Marlow children are seen in intimate relationships, homosexuality and menstruation both rate a (brief but definite) mention.  The books *have* dated (especially The Thuggery Affair, which is very 60s indeed), but they're still very believable.

A lot of the above also apply to Harry Potter, of course.  I'd put Harry somewhere between the formulaic and the Marlows: JKR's more 'gloved' about a lot of subjects than AF is.

Has anyone read these?  (Wendy?  I know Vicky's hugely into them...)

Tabouli.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From tammy at mauswerks.net  Mon Dec 15 22:53:08 2003
From: tammy at mauswerks.net (Tammy Rizzo)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 17:53:08 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] I just can't believe this...
In-Reply-To: <148.1ebd03df.2d0f4735@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3FDDF504.21395.1BF5AE2@localhost>

On 15 Dec 2003 at 12:19, IAmLordCassandra at aol.com wrote:

> http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/hpmain.html 
> 
> *shakes head*  

Y'know, those 'born agains' give Christianity a real bad name.

***
Tammy
tammy at mauswerks.net





From drednort at alphalink.com.au  Mon Dec 15 23:21:42 2003
From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 10:21:42 +1100
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] British boarding school stories
In-Reply-To: <002001c3c35b$edba84d0$32f832d2@useriq2qgc104q>
Message-ID: <3FDEDCB6.9501.C1FA13@localhost>

On 16 Dec 2003 at 9:36, Tabouli wrote:

> Has anyone read these?  (Wendy?  I know Vicky's hugely into them...)

Yes, I have read these.

I didn't include them in my list mostly because I forgot about them  
- they're certainly another example of the genre in the fact that 
they *do* make use of the standard conventions - but they also take 
it a lot further, which to me shows how once those frameworks and 
conventions are understood, they can be used as a... stepping off 
point for other ideas - sort of, that an author can use the 
conventions to ensure that their readers are all starting from 
around the same point.

This definitely seems true of HP as well to me - one of the 
strengths of the HP books is because they build on the boarding 
school story genre, a lot of underlying details don't need to be 
sketched out... you know Draco is a bully, so you know what that 
means. Once you know there are houses and a sport, you know there 
is likely to be a rivalry, etc.

One clear example - Cedric Diggory.

>From the moment it first became clear he was going to be a major 
part of Goblet of Fire, I pretty much knew what his character would 
be like, because of those conventions.

I sometimes wonder what the experience of reading HP without 
knowing those 'codes' would have been like.


Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought
Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html
(ISTJ)       | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 
"You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one
thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the 
facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be 
uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that 
need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil
Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia




From cwood at tattersallpub.com  Mon Dec 15 23:31:37 2003
From: cwood at tattersallpub.com (mstattersall)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 23:31:37 -0000
Subject: I just can't believe this...
In-Reply-To: <3FDDF504.21395.1BF5AE2@localhost>
Message-ID: <brlg8p+5gri@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Tammy Rizzo" <tammy at m...> 
wrote:
> On 15 Dec 2003 at 12:19, IAmLordCassandra at a... wrote:
> 
> > http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/hpmain.html 
> > 
> > *shakes head*  
> 
> Y'know, those 'born agains' give Christianity a real bad name.
> 
> ***
> Tammy

It isn't the "born-again" part that's the problem...it's when they're 
re-born without a brain due to incompetent, fear-mongering 
indoctrination.
Ms. Tatt
"Help Stamp Out Re-Birth Defects: Join the March of Knuts"





From tammy at mauswerks.net  Mon Dec 15 23:58:33 2003
From: tammy at mauswerks.net (Tammy Rizzo)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 18:58:33 -0500
Subject: I just can't believe this...
In-Reply-To: <brlg8p+5gri@eGroups.com>
References: <3FDDF504.21395.1BF5AE2@localhost>
Message-ID: <3FDE0459.27754.1FB3C11@localhost>

On 15 Dec 2003 at 23:31, mstattersall wrote:

> It isn't the "born-again" part that's the problem...it's when they're
> re-born without a brain due to incompetent, fear-mongering
> indoctrination. 
> 
> Ms. Tatt "Help Stamp Out Re-Birth Defects: Join the March of Knuts"

Hee!  Sign me up for seven knuts!

You got that right, though -- I've only met a handful of 'born-agains' (as opposed to 
those who try to live a Christ-like life), but every one of them that I've tried to discuss 
religion with were extremely close-minded about matters of faith and belief.  It might 
be just a poor sampling, just my bad luck to always find the stubbornest ones, but 
considering that this handful was picked out over seven states, I kinda have to think 
that they WERE a representative sampling, you know?

***
Tammy
tammy at mauswerks.net




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From RSFJenny19 at aol.com  Tue Dec 16 00:46:01 2003
From: RSFJenny19 at aol.com (Jenny)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 00:46:01 -0000
Subject: Announcement From  _The Daily Prophet_
Message-ID: <brlkk9+4onu@eGroups.com>

**HOG'S HEAD SET TO OPEN FOR CANON DISCUSSION**
Time-Turner Discovered By Indigent Bar Owner; "Darn Right I'm Going
To Cash In," He Vows

By Rita Skeeter, Special Correspondent

YAHOO GROUPS, SOMEWHERE UNPLOTTABLE, DEC. 12 -- Historians and
Magical Device Experts worldwide were astounded today by the
discovery of the first ever Canon Time-Turner by humble, impoverished
bar owner Aberforth Dumbledore, owner of the "Hog's Head Inn." While
searching for a funnel to water down the fire whisky, Mr. Dumbledore
stumbled across a metal box containing one small hourglass and a
brand new copy of "Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix."


"This thing is a real find," Mr. Dumbledore said, clutching the
time-turner in his grimy fist. "All I have to do is turn it about
*4,320* times or so, and it'll be June 21, 2003 -- the day OoP came
out! Can you imagine the business I'll do when word of this gets out?
I'll have myself a place where adults from all over can come talk
about Harry Potter, just like those heady OoP release days last
summer."

Determined to find every conceivable way to squeeze the last sickle
out of this windfall, Hog's Head plans to allow HP canon discussion
for adults in any style. Mr. Dumbledore plans to have trivia contests
and polls - anything to keep his patrons ordering another round. And,
of course, he plans an open membership for any adult who wants to
discuss canon.

"Oh, I have big plans for this place," said Mr. Dumbledore, tucking
the Time-Turner back into its box. "It's going to take me some time
to fix it up real good, though. And I guess I'd better go read OoP my
own self. While I do that, the rest of you should go back and read
OoP before the Grand Opening on January 8, 2004. That's when we'll
get started.

"In the meantime, I'm taking reservations. Go to
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hogs_Head/?yguid=100100985
and click 'Join Group.' You can wait in the lobby while you re-read
OoP, and I'll start swinging the doors open to anyone who turns up,
just like I promised. As long as the Fire Marshall gives the okay,"
he added, apparently wary of being shut down due to overcrowding.

When asked about the possibility that no one will show up, Mr.
Dumbledore choked back a derisive laugh. "It's a sure thing if I
ever saw one! I already have reservations for Annemehr, Beth, Cindy,
Elle, Eileen, Gail, Jen, Jenny, June, KathyK, Laura, Laurie, Nox,
Risti, Susan, Tom Wall, Tracy, and Tyler Hewitt. Just for starters,
you know?

"Room for more, though, always room for more," he said as he tucked
the Time-Turner back into its box and turned away.

******************

Jenny, for the Hog's Head

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hogs_Head/?yguid=100100985





From neonsister at ameritech.net  Tue Dec 16 02:24:54 2003
From: neonsister at ameritech.net (Tracy)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 02:24:54 -0000
Subject: Flowers for the Slytherin garden
Message-ID: <brlqdm+k743@eGroups.com>

How about a nice bouquet of these on Snape's desk?  :-)

http://www.dutchgardens.com/sell.asp?ProdGroupID=19763

Tracy




From annemehr at yahoo.com  Tue Dec 16 04:20:26 2003
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 04:20:26 -0000
Subject: Flowers for the Slytherin garden
In-Reply-To: <brlqdm+k743@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <brm16a+7adl@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Tracy" <neonsister at a...> wrote:
> How about a nice bouquet of these on Snape's desk?  :-)
> 
> http://www.dutchgardens.com/sell.asp?ProdGroupID=19763
> 
> Tracy

Oh, I *like* those!

Anyone have any idea what kind of potions they'd be good in?

Annemehr
whose favorite flowers are often the oddest





From joym999 at aol.com  Tue Dec 16 05:43:55 2003
From: joym999 at aol.com (joywitch_m_curmudgeon)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 05:43:55 -0000
Subject: I just can't believe this...
In-Reply-To: <184.23e92724.2d0f7947@aol.com>
Message-ID: <brm62r+dnc2@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, IAmLordCassandra at a... wrote:
> Very good points. I didn't read all the articles...I stopped the 
instant I 
> saw they thought the books advocated the killing of babies.  
> 
> Mind if I quote you?  A 'friend' of mine uses this site against HP 
as though 
> it were the Bible itself...just incase I can't resist temptation 
and need to 
> slap him in the face...some might come in handy XXD 
> 

Sure.  In my experience, though, people who believe such 
ridiculousness don't usually allow things like facts or truth or 
logic to interfere with their view of the world.  But, if you can 
actually get someone who believes that nonsense to listen to you, you 
are a better man than I, Gunga Din.

--Joywitch




From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Tue Dec 16 08:14:59 2003
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naamagatus)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 08:14:59 -0000
Subject: British boarding school stories
In-Reply-To: <002001c3c35b$edba84d0$32f832d2@useriq2qgc104q>
Message-ID: <brmeu3+cn33@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Tabouli" <tabouli at u...> 
wrote:
> No-one's mentioned my favorite British boarding school stories, 
namely the books on the Marlow family by Antonia Forest.  Excellent, 
those.  Malory Towers and St Clares, but with realism and 
characterisation and plausibility.  > 

> There are four school stories and six set during the holidays 
(published betwen 1948 and 1982), which is a departure from the usual 
trend.  They are as follows:
> 
> Autumn Term (12yo twins with 4 distinguished older sisters start at 
boarding school)
> The Marlows and the Traitor (set during holidays: 3 youngest 
Marlows get kidnapped by a spy)
> Falconer's Lure (set during holidays: the Marlows move to the 
country and Nicola takes up falconry)
> End of Term (school story centred on the end of year Christmas play)
> Peter's Room (the Marlows & next door neighbour Patrick do a 
Brontes based roleplay over Christmas)
> The Thuggery Affair (two of the Marlows & Patrick run in with a 
local gang)
> The Ready-Made Family (19yo family genius Karen comes home from her 
1st term at Oxford announcing that she is marrying a 41yo widower 
with three kids)
> Cricket Term (school story centred around the interform cricket 
tournament)
> Attic Term (school story centred around the beautiful, scatty 
Ginty's relationship with Patrick)
> Run Away Home (the Marlows help an abducted boy return to 
Switzerland)
> 

OH - MY - GOD!!! Have you any idea how long I've been yearning for 
sequels to the first book?!
I found Automn Term in a used books store years ago, and for some 
reason decided to take it. And it was wonderful! As a child, I read 
all the Enid Blyton school stories, and was amazed at how similar yet 
different this book was. Deeper, realer, better. I've searched to see 
whether she wrote sequels, but couldn't find any mention of it. 
Hurrah! How do you think I can get the other books? 


Naama, very excited







From silverdragon at ezweb.com.au  Tue Dec 16 07:40:14 2003
From: silverdragon at ezweb.com.au (silverdragon at ezweb.com.au)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 17:40:14 +1000
Subject: Fw:   How to get kicked out of Return of the King (fwd)
Message-ID: <012a01c3c3be$f1653450$6e984cca@Monteith>

Got thins from another list.

Well, I thought this was funny...



How to Get Kicked out of Return of the King.


 1. Stand up halfway through the movie and yell loudly, "Wait... where 
 the hell is Harry Potter?"
 
 2. Block the entrance to the theater while screaming: "YOU SHALL NOT 
 PASS!" - After the movie, say "Lucas could have done it better."
 
 3. Play a drinking game where you have to take a sip every time 
 someone says: "The Ring."
 
 4. Point and laugh whenever someone dies.
 
 5. Ask everyone around you if they think Gandalf went to Hogwarts.
 
 6. Finish off every one of Elrond's lines with "Mr. Anderson."
 
 7. When Aragorn is crowned king, stand up and at the top of your 
 lungs sing, "And I did it.... MY way...!"
 
 8. Talk like Gollum all through the movie. At the end, bite off 
 someone's finger and fall down the stairs.
 
 9. Dress up as old ladies and reenact "The Battle of Helms Deep" 
 Monty Python style.
 
 10. When Denethor lights the fire, shout "Barbecue!"
 
 11. In TTT when the Ents decide to march to war, stand up and 
 shout "RUN FOREST, RUN!"
 
 12. Every time someone kills an Orc, yell: "That's what I'm Tolkien 
 about!" See how long it takes before you get kicked out of the 
 theatre.
 
 13. During a wide shot of a battle, inquire, "Where's Waldo?"
 
14. Talk loudly about how you heard that there is a single frame of a 
 nude Elf hidden somewhere in the movie.
 
 15. Start an Orc sing-a-long.
 
 16. Come to the premiere dressed as Frankenfurter and wander around 
 looking terribly confused.
 
 17. When they go in the paths of the dead, wait for tense moment and 
 shout, "I see dead people!"
 
 18. Imitate what you think a conversation between Gollum, Dobby and 
 Yoda would be like.
 
 19. Release a jar of daddy-long-legs into the theater during the 
 Shelob scene.
 
 20. Wonder out loud if Aragorn is going to run for governor of 
 California. 
 
 21. When Shelob comes on, exclaim, "Man! Charlotte's really let 
> herself go!"
 




From alician at bigpond.com  Tue Dec 16 11:39:17 2003
From: alician at bigpond.com (alician at bigpond.com)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 11:39:17 -0000
Subject: British boarding school stories
In-Reply-To: <002001c3c35b$edba84d0$32f832d2@useriq2qgc104q>
Message-ID: <brmqt5+9p3a@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Tabouli" <tabouli at u...> 
wrote:
> No-one's mentioned my favorite British boarding school stories, 
namely the books on the Marlow family by Antonia Forest.  

<snip>

Alicia delurks:

I loved these books! Antonia Forest created such a strong family 
history for the Marlows ? as well as the 4 school stories and 6 
holiday stories, she also wrote two historical (Elizabethan era) 
books, "The Player's Boy" and "The Players and the Rebels", about an 
actor who was an ancestor of the Marlows. He's mentioned in at least 
one of novels about the more recent Marlow family.

Forest was also very conscious of the tradition in which she was 
writing - at one point (in "The Attic Term, I think) the characters 
find a box of old boarding school novels, set in the Chalet School, 
Mallory Towers and the like, and she makes a point of noting how old-
fashioned the girls find them.

Alicia, who holds these books wholly responsible for her desire to 
own a falcon.





From erinellii at yahoo.com  Tue Dec 16 12:22:25 2003
From: erinellii at yahoo.com (erinellii at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 12:22:25 -0000
Subject: Fw:   How to get kicked out of Return of the King (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <012a01c3c3be$f1653450$6e984cca@Monteith>
Message-ID: <brmte1+3j2r@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, <silverdragon at e...> wrote:
> Got thins from another list.
> 
> Well, I thought this was funny...
> 
> 
> 
> How to Get Kicked out of Return of the King.
> 
<snip funny lines>

Erin:  Well, I laughed until I choked, so you weren't the only one...




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Tue Dec 16 12:48:57 2003
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (coriolan at worldnet.att.net)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 12:48:57 -0000
Subject: I just can't believe this...
In-Reply-To: <3FDDF504.21395.1BF5AE2@localhost>
Message-ID: <brmuvp+p66q@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Tammy Rizzo" <tammy at m...> 
wrote:
> On 15 Dec 2003 at 12:19, IAmLordCassandra at a... wrote:
> 
> > http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/hpmain.html 
> > 
> > *shakes head*  
> 
> Y'know, those 'born agains' give Christianity a real bad name.
> 

Now, in fairness, this anti-Potter author takes a similarly jaundiced 
view of self-proclaimed "born-agains" (from their Goblet of Fire" 
review).

"E.  Generational Witchcraft -- this is witchcraft practiced in 
successive generations on down.  In the real world, some of the best 
examples of Generational Witchcraft are the families -- Rothschild, 
Rockefeller, Taft, Wadsworth, Payne, Pillsbury, Sloane, Weyerhaeuser, 
Harriman, Lord, Bundy, Phelps, Whitney, Perkins, Stimson, Bush, 
Chafee. [Antony C. Sutton, America's Secret Establishment:  An 
Introduction To The Order of Skull & Bones , p. 19-29]

Notice in the list, above, that while the Bush family is listed, the 
Gore family is not.  The fact of the matter is that the Bush family 
has far better Illuminist credentials than the Gore family.  We have 
severe doubts as to whether George W. Bush has really become Born 
Again, as we detail in NEWS1314."


Of course, that's not much nuttier than a lot of what's being posted 
on Democratic message boards these days.....



   - CMC







From yodamarie78 at yahoo.com  Tue Dec 16 14:42:58 2003
From: yodamarie78 at yahoo.com (yodamarie78 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 14:42:58 -0000
Subject: I just can't believe this...
In-Reply-To: <148.1ebd03df.2d0f4735@aol.com>
Message-ID: <brn5li+nl78@eGroups.com>

IAmLordCassandra at a... wrote:
> http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/hpmain.html 
> 

What always frightens me the most about groups like this is that they 
seem to somehow think that people really believe that the Harry 
Potter books are real and that we're all going to run out and start 
waving around holly branches which will really work and cast spells 
on people.  These people give their children absolutly no credit for 
being able to recognize what is real and what is fantasy.  They take 
things and make wild generalizations, such as that since many schools 
have the Harry Potter books in their libraries then "This means that 
your child will be assigned Harry Potter as Required Reading 
Material.  If your child is attending Public School, he or she will 
be getting the full impact of this Satanic storyline."  Under US law 
parents have the right to censor what their children read, but one 
would hope that parents would take the time to look at all sides of 
the argument and read the book for themselves before they do so.  
Also how on earth can one claim that Michael Jackson being 
investigated on charges of pedophilia fortells coming tolerance for 
pedophilia?

Yoda
Future Librarian and Defender of Intellectual Freedom!




From annemehr at yahoo.com  Tue Dec 16 15:31:26 2003
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 15:31:26 -0000
Subject: British boarding school stories
In-Reply-To: <brmeu3+cn33@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <brn8ge+3cee@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "naamagatus" <naama_gat at h...>
wrote:

> OH - MY - GOD!!! Have you any idea how long I've been yearning for 
> sequels to the first book?!
> I found Automn Term in a used books store years ago, and for some 
> reason decided to take it. And it was wonderful! As a child, I read 
> all the Enid Blyton school stories, and was amazed at how similar yet 
> different this book was. Deeper, realer, better. I've searched to see 
> whether she wrote sequels, but couldn't find any mention of it. 
> Hurrah! How do you think I can get the other books? 
> 
> 
> Naama, very excited

These do look interesting!

Barnes and Noble's website includes many independent used booksellers
who sell out-of-print books.  Just go to www. bn. com (leaving out the
spaces, of course), and use their normal search function.  The used
and out-of-print copies will show up in the results.

Also, Amazon has a service where individuals can sell their own used
books; I got an out-of-print book that way once.

Good luck!

Annemehr





From jwcpgh at yahoo.com  Tue Dec 16 15:47:41 2003
From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 15:47:41 -0000
Subject: Fw:   How to get kicked out of Return of the King (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <brmte1+3j2r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <brn9et+is06@eGroups.com>

> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, <silverdragon at e...> wrote:
> > How to Get Kicked out of Return of the King.
> > 
> <snip funny lines>
> 
> Erin:  Well, I laughed until I choked, so you weren't the only 
one...

Laura:

I'm going with my husband and 15 year old daughter, a girlfriend of 
hers and a friend of mine and her husband.  All of the females are 
huge Viggo fans and we're pretty fond of Orli and the other assorted 
yummy men.  We think there should be "squeeing"  and "non-squeeing" 
sections.  The guys might not want to be anywhere around us. :-)

Can you believe this is what induced me to de-lurk? How sad is 
that?  




From delwynmarch at yahoo.com  Tue Dec 16 15:16:24 2003
From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 15:16:24 -0000
Subject: Fw:   How to get kicked out of Return of the King (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <012a01c3c3be$f1653450$6e984cca@Monteith>
Message-ID: <brn7k8+10t53@eGroups.com>


>  19. Release a jar of daddy-long-legs into the theater during the 
>  Shelob scene.

>  21. When Shelob comes on, exclaim, "Man! Charlotte's really let 
> > herself go!"

I have a question for those of you who have seen the movie. See, I 
have a mega-big problem : I am arachnophobic, full-strength. I could 
not even stand looking at the trailer of that spoof giant-spider 
movie, a couple of years ago. If I ever met a Boggart, it would turn 
into my mental image of Shelob. I could never have stayed alive and 
conscious through what Ron endured in CoS. And I swore never ever to 
watch Arachnophobia !

So back to the point : reading those Shelob parts in the books was a 
real torture for me. It was so bad that when we bought a magazine 
with a double page picture of Sam fighting Shelob, my husband *taped 
it together* before I got to it !! So my question is : is it safe for 
me to go and see Return of the King ? Is there any chance I can get 
through the Shelob scene without being irrevocably traumatised for 
life ? I know it sounds funny, but I would rather skip the movie than 
see my worst nightmare on a big screen... 

Del, feeling very silly indeed, but oh well I do need the advice





From saitaina at wizzards.net  Tue Dec 16 16:48:14 2003
From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 08:48:14 -0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Fw:   How to get kicked out of Return of the King (fwd)
References: <brn7k8+10t53@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <003401c3c3f4$66f6e940$d6361c40@aoldsl.net>

Del wrote:

<Is there any chance I can get
through the Shelob scene without being
irrevocably traumatized for
life ? I know it sounds funny, but I would
rather skip the movie than
see my worst nightmare on a big screen... >

As a fellow arachnophobia, I can say that she
didn't look much like a spider from the
trailers.  Granted thee were the legs but
just think of her as a really large ant and
you get the same effect.

Unlike a certain movie associated with this
list that I screamed right in the middle of
the theatre when they came on.
Saitaina
****
Brave and bold they're not.  They ain't the
bravest heroes...but they're the only ones
we've got.


http://www.livejournal.com/users/saitaina

"No, one day I'm going to look back on all
this and plow face-first into a tree because
I was looking the wrong bloody way. And I'll
still be having a better day than I am
today."




From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com  Tue Dec 16 17:20:31 2003
From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 12:20:31 EST
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: I just can't believe this...
Message-ID: <1d5.16a26ca4.2d1098df@aol.com>

In a message dated 12/15/2003 9:45:17 PM Pacific Standard Time, 
joym999 at aol.com writes:

> Sure.  In my experience, though, people who believe such 
> ridiculousness don't usually allow things like facts or truth or 
> logic to interfere with their view of the world.  But, if you can 
> actually get someone who believes that nonsense to listen to you, you 
> are a better man than I, Gunga Din.
> 
> --Joywitch

lol.  Oh, I doubt I can change their mind or even get them to read what we 
write.  However, maybe it'll convince those who do not have any kind of informed 
opinion on HP to not believe these stupid articles and laugh (or scream) 
along with the rest of us ^^  

One person I talked to...oy...let's just say I wouldn't be surprised if s/he 
lived in an underground shelter all by her/himself with just a computer that 
only linked him/her to conspiracy sites.   

XXP 

~Cassie~ 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From jfaulkne at sas.upenn.edu  Tue Dec 16 17:39:09 2003
From: jfaulkne at sas.upenn.edu (Jen Faulkner)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 12:39:09 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Fw:   How to get kicked out of Return of
 the King (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <brn7k8+10t53@eGroups.com>
References: <brn7k8+10t53@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0312161233370.4417@mail2.sas.upenn.edu>

On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 delwynmarch at yahoo.com wrote:

> So back to the point : reading those Shelob parts in the books was a
> real torture for me. It was so bad that when we bought a magazine
> with a double page picture of Sam fighting Shelob, my husband *taped
> it together* before I got to it !! So my question is : is it safe for
> me to go and see Return of the King ? Is there any chance I can get
> through the Shelob scene without being irrevocably traumatised for
> life ? I know it sounds funny, but I would rather skip the movie than
> see my worst nightmare on a big screen...

My gf, likewise, *really* does not like spiders.  Really.  Really really
really. *g*  She still wants to see RotK, but she hasn't even watched
the trailers/commercials, because of not wanting to see Shelob.  We're
planning to have her go with me, and she's absolutely not going to open
her eyes while Shelob's on screen (I'll tell her when she can look);
I'll have seen it once before, at least, so we'll be prepared.

I think that's the only way to get through it -- if you can sit in the
theater when they're talking about spiders and have someone you can
trust to accurately tell you when she's gone, I think you'd be okay.
But even better will be to go with someone who's *already* seen it --
and leave the theater during those parts, if necessary (if there's a lot
of cutting between Sam and Frodo and the battles elsewhere, with
surprise spider, or if you don't want to hear them *talk* about the
giant spider, even).

Good luck!

--Jen :)

* * * * * *
Jen's HP fics:
http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~jfaulkne/fan/hp.html
Snapeslash listmom: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/snapeslash
Yes, I *am* the Deictrix.



From tammy at mauswerks.net  Tue Dec 16 17:56:01 2003
From: tammy at mauswerks.net (Tammy Rizzo)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 12:56:01 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Fw:   How to get kicked out of Return of the King (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <brn7k8+10t53@eGroups.com>
References: <012a01c3c3be$f1653450$6e984cca@Monteith>
Message-ID: <3FDF00E1.4632.591E615@localhost>

On 16 Dec 2003 at 15:16, delwynmarch at yahoo.com wrote:

> Del wrote:
> So back to the point : reading those Shelob parts in the books was a
> real torture for me. It was so bad that when we bought a magazine with
> a double page picture of Sam fighting Shelob, my husband *taped it
> together* before I got to it !! So my question is : is it safe for me
> to go and see Return of the King ? Is there any chance I can get
> through the Shelob scene without being irrevocably traumatised for
> life ? I know it sounds funny, but I would rather skip the movie than
> see my worst nightmare on a big screen... 
> 
> Del, feeling very silly indeed, but oh well I do need the advice

Now me (Tammy)
Go see the movie, but take someone you absolutely trust with you to tell you when 
you can open your eyes because Shelob is gone.  Don't let such a fear hold you 
back from seeing the climax of the trilogy!

And as for 'Eight Legged Freaks' . . . yeah, the spiders are huge and they hunt 
people, but, well, it's kinda hard to STAY afraid of a spider that does a goofy Tarzan 
yell while sliding down a tension wire and slamming into a vent cover.  At least, it 
was for me, and I do hate spiders.  Granted, not as much as you do, but I do hate 
spiders.

***
Tammy
tammy at mauswerks.net




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Tue Dec 16 18:22:09 2003
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (foxmoth at qnet.com)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 18:22:09 -0000
Subject: Family History project
Message-ID: <brnigh+8bbo@eGroups.com>

I'm currently going through fourteen cartons of family papers 
which my late parents had squirreled away,  sorting and 
cataloging. The plan is to have the interesting stuff professionally 
scanned and issued on  CD's to the descendants.

Currently I'm on a box of  letters from World War II. Fascinating.

I was wondering if any of you had ever done anything similar?

Pippin




From neonsister at ameritech.net  Tue Dec 16 18:23:51 2003
From: neonsister at ameritech.net (neonsister at ameritech.net)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 18:23:51 -0000
Subject: Flowers for the Slytherin garden
In-Reply-To: <brm16a+7adl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <brnijn+djqe@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" <annemehr at y...> 
wrote:
> "Anyone have any idea what kind of potions they'd be good in?"

Well (just theorizing here), they are a type of coneflower. Purple 
coneflowers are echinacea, which is supposed to help the immune 
system.  Maybe green coneflowers have similar properties!

Tracy




From neonsister at ameritech.net  Tue Dec 16 18:29:59 2003
From: neonsister at ameritech.net (neonsister at ameritech.net)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 18:29:59 -0000
Subject: Fw:   How to get kicked out of Return of the King (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <012a01c3c3be$f1653450$6e984cca@Monteith>
Message-ID: <brniv7+qkli@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, <silverdragon at e...> wrote:
   
>  "11. In TTT when the Ents decide to march to war, stand up and 
>  shout "RUN FOREST, RUN!"

For some reason this one really struck me funny!  

On a related note, I went to see the extended version of TTT on the 
big screen this past weekend.  There was a woman with a boy about 8 
yrs. old in front of me, and it was fun watching  his reactions to 
the movie.  During the scene when Aragorn finally arrives at Helm's 
Deep (after he falls off the cliff and the horse brings him back) the 
boy was bouncing up and down in his chair and pointing at the screen, 
so excited that the hero had come to save the day!  

Tracy  





From illyana at mindspring.com  Tue Dec 16 18:34:31 2003
From: illyana at mindspring.com (illyana delorean)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 11:34:31 -0700
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Fw:   How to get kicked out of Return of the King (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <brn7k8+10t53@eGroups.com>
References: <brn7k8+10t53@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <7D073F98-2FF6-11D8-91C1-000A956A61BC@mindspring.com>

Del wrote:
>  So my question is : is it safe for
> me to go and see Return of the King ? Is there any chance I can get
> through the Shelob scene without being irrevocably traumatised for
> life ? I know it sounds funny, but I would rather skip the movie than
> see my worst nightmare on a big screen...

illyana here:

WARNING - ROTK MOVIE SPOILER ALERT (nothing major; don't worry)!!!

I have seen ROTK, and I am a little arachnophobic myself - not to the 
extreme that you are, though! Here's a question for you - did you freak 
out during the spider scene in the COS movie? Shelob is a LOT more 
realistic-looking than the acromantulas in COS, but she does not look 
as much like a spider. Those of you who have read the LOTR books know 
that Shelob isn't quite a spider, but more like a monster that 
resembles a spider.

If I were you, I would go to the movie and just close my eyes during 
Shelob - have someone narrate for you, because that part is a bit 
different than the book. If you can muster up the courage to look, 
though, you definitely should! Shelob looks fantastic, and that scene 
is very dramatic.

Hope this helps! Don't miss the movie just because of a silly spider 
that's not even real!

illyana
HPGCv1
a22 e+ x+* Rm Ri HP4 S+++ Mo++ HG+/VK++ HaP+/SS+++& FGW++ DM++& VC-- 
GG-- CD+ VK++ SS+++& PT--- AF-- MM++ RL++ O+m FAo F- Sl FHo SfD

visit my livejournal! http://www.livejournal.com/users/illyanadmc

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Tue Dec 16 18:38:37 2003
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (dfrankiswork at netscape.net)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 18:38:37 -0000
Subject: Apostrophising over Yahoo!
Message-ID: <brnjfd+32sn@eGroups.com>

What are they doing? All these ' are driving me mad.

David




From joym999 at aol.com  Tue Dec 16 20:24:50 2003
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 20:24:50 -0000
Subject: Apostrophising over Yahoo!
In-Reply-To: <brnjfd+32sn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <brnpmi+36al@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, dfrankiswork at n... wrote:
> What are they doing? All these ' are driving me mad.
> 
Me too!  They're drivin' me mad!  I'm mad & madder!!! '''argh'''

JMC




From joym999 at aol.com  Tue Dec 16 20:27:47 2003
From: joym999 at aol.com (joym999 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 20:27:47 -0000
Subject: Apostrophising over Yahoo!
In-Reply-To: <brnpmi+36al@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <brnps3+efp3@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, joym999 at a... wrote:
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, dfrankiswork at n... wrote:
> > What are they doing? All these ' are driving me mad.
> > 
> Me too!  They're drivin' me mad!  I'm mad & madder!!! '''argh'''


Hey, I seem to have fixed it!  See, all you have to do is yell and 
scream to get what you want!  Dudley was right.

--JMC, responding to her own post (a sure sign of madness)




From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk  Tue Dec 16 20:32:05 2003
From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 20:32:05 -0000
Subject: Apostrophising over Yahoo!
In-Reply-To: <brnps3+efp3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <brnq45+j6gp@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, joym999 at a... wrote:
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, joym999 at a... wrote:
> > --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, dfrankiswork at n... wrote:
> > > What are they doing? All these ' are driving me mad.
> > > 
> > Me too!  They're drivin' me mad!  I'm mad & madder!!! '''argh'''
> 
> 
> Hey, I seem to have fixed it!  See, all you have to do is yell and 
> scream to get what you want!  Dudley was right.
> 
> --JMC, responding to her own post (a sure sign of madness)

I'm sure glad to see these posts, I was worried it was just me - 
even on two different computers, and too paranoid to ask if anyone 
else had it.

pathetic really.

June




From confusedandpronetowander at hotmail.com  Tue Dec 16 18:05:07 2003
From: confusedandpronetowander at hotmail.com (confusedandpronetowander at hotmail.com)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 18:05:07 -0000
Subject: Fw:   How to get kicked out of Return of the King (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <brn7k8+10t53@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <brnhgj+k1fu@eGroups.com>

Well...what better a way than to face your fear than in a safe 
environment, with your husband, in a theatre where obviously nothing 
bad can happen to you? Could be worse...my mom had to face her 
arachnaphobia head on when my brother brought home a tarantula as a 
pet last summer. I had to return to Ottawa a few days too early, so I 
missed the reaction, but apparently it was an interesting sight. The 
point is, it did make her get over it...to the point where she even 
fed the spider (Morty), and my brother's other pet,  Mr. Handyman the 
Handicapped Scorpion (he lost a few legs in battle at one point).

We all have our own irrational fears. that I think we can only get 
rid of by facing. Or, you can always close your eyes, and get your 
husband/movie companion to tell you when it's safe to open them again 
(haha- like what my mom does when we watch horror movies).

Good Luck!

Amber 

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, delwynmarch at y... wrote:
> 
> >  19. Release a jar of daddy-long-legs into the theater during the 
> >  Shelob scene.
> 
> >  21. When Shelob comes on, exclaim, "Man! Charlotte's really let 
> > > herself go!"
> 
> I have a question for those of you who have seen the movie. See, I 
> have a mega-big problem : I am arachnophobic, full-strength. I 
could 
> not even stand looking at the trailer of that spoof giant-spider 
> movie, a couple of years ago. If I ever met a Boggart, it would 
turn 
> into my mental image of Shelob. I could never have stayed alive and 
> conscious through what Ron endured in CoS. And I swore never ever 
to 
> watch Arachnophobia !
> 
> So back to the point : reading those Shelob parts in the books was 
a 
> real torture for me. It was so bad that when we bought a magazine 
> with a double page picture of Sam fighting Shelob, my husband 
*taped 
> it together* before I got to it !! So my question is : is it safe 
for 
> me to go and see Return of the King ? Is there any chance I can get 
> through the Shelob scene without being irrevocably traumatised for 
> life ? I know it sounds funny, but I would rather skip the movie 
than 
> see my worst nightmare on a big screen... 
> 
> Del, feeling very silly indeed, but oh well I do need the advice





From Erthena at aol.com  Wed Dec 17 04:16:50 2003
From: Erthena at aol.com (Erthena at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 04:16:50 -0000
Subject: What is the Average air speed velocity of an unladen swallow?  Answered
Message-ID: <brolbi+g24h@eGroups.com>

Finally, we have an answer to this age old question. What is the 
average air speed velocity of an unladen swallow you ask, well it's 
11 meters per second or 24 miles per hour (for a european swallow, 
they have no clue about african swallow).  How did loony find this 
out, well someone did a study.  See it here 
http://www.style.org/unladenswallow/
  It also answered the other question, What is the capital of 
Assyria (which I actually knew).

Just passing it along,

~~loony

PS:: if you did not understand a word of theis may  recommend the 
wonderful movie Monty Python and the Holy Grail, hilarious and 
historically inaccurate.




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Wed Dec 17 04:40:56 2003
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (coriolan at worldnet.att.net)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 04:40:56 -0000
Subject: Return of the King Review - from 1956
Message-ID: <bromoo+votq@eGroups.com>

Here is W. H. Auden's review of ROTk when it was first published:

http://www.nytimes.com/1956/01/22/books/tolkien-king.html

(Registration is necessary if you have not been on the NYT site 
before)

  - CMC




From lupinesque at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 17 07:46:34 2003
From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (lupinesque at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 07:46:34 -0000
Subject: Those wingnuts are on to something (was: I just can't believe this...)
In-Reply-To: <brl35a+c67g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <brp1kq+k8o6@eGroups.com>

Joywitch wrote:

> Here's a warning: "children will think Harry and his friends have 
so 
> much fun using Witchcraft in the everyday part of their lives, that 
> they will want to become witches and wizards so they can have 
this 
> much fun, too."

That's definitely true.  The only inaccuracy is that it isn't just 
children.

Amy Z
who knows these people haven't been going to the TRUE 
Satanic worship assemblies, or they'd know that our demonic 
master's favorite color is lilac




From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk  Wed Dec 17 09:40:23 2003
From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 09:40:23 -0000
Subject: Those wingnuts are on to something (was: I just can't believe this...)
In-Reply-To: <brp1kq+k8o6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <brp8a7+v3l6@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, lupinesque at y... wrote:
.
> 
> Amy Z
> who knows these people haven't been going to the TRUE 
> Satanic worship assemblies, or they'd know that our demonic 
> master's favorite color is lilac

Really, truly?  How very interesting.  My bedroom is in lilac. Does 
this make me demonic?  I should so like to think so...

June

Induling in a bit of satanic laughter

Off to see ROTK in 1 hour and counting.




From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 17 13:24:58 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (bboy_mn at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 13:24:58 -0000
Subject: FF: Unrestricted Travel Between UK and Canada??
Message-ID: <brplfa+q0qh@eGroups.com>

It's a tough life being a closeted fan fic writer. There are so many
details a poor American like myself is not privy too.

For example, are Canadians and people from England allow to travel
freely between those two countries without the need for visas or
special travel permits? Just an ID and a plane ticket, and you are off???

Reason I ask-

I have a fan fic that is still very much in the planning stage in
which Harry and Ron are in the USA illegally. They are at the airport
trying to get a airplane ticket back to England, but don't have their
passports with them. 

So, I need a plausable explaination for how they ended up in the USA.
It would serve me extremely well if travel between Canada and England
was unresticted. That way they could arrive in Canada, and on a whim
cross the border into the USA to have a look around.

Part of the problem is getting them through Canadian Customs without
passports. The lords of poor writers would smile on me, if they could
do that with just their UK national ID's. 

Even if that isn't exactly possible, I may have a alternate cover
story, but even that alternate story need very loose restriction on
travel between the two countries (they claim they enter Canada on a
private plane landing at a small airport in the alternate scenerio).

Even under the best of circumstances, I'm going to have to do a lot of
 'fast talking' to pull this off.

Can any enlighten me about the travel requirements between Canada and
England?

Thanks,

bboy_mn





From udderpd at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Dec 17 13:55:28 2003
From: udderpd at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?udder=5Fpen=5Fdragon?=)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 13:55:28 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] FF: Unrestricted Travel Between UK and Canada??
In-Reply-To: <brplfa+q0qh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20031217135528.39783.qmail@web25102.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>



bboy_mn at yahoo.com wrote:
It's a tough life being a closeted fan fic writer. There are so many
details a poor American like myself is not privy too.

For example, are Canadians and people from England allow to travel
freely between those two countries without the need for visas or
special travel permits? Just an ID and a plane ticket, and you are off???

Reason I ask-

I have a fan fic that is still very much in the planning stage in
which Harry and Ron are in the USA illegally. They are at the airport
trying to get a airplane ticket back to England, but don't have their
passports with them. 

So, I need a plausable explaination for how they ended up in the USA.
It would serve me extremely well if travel between Canada and England
was unresticted. That way they could arrive in Canada, and on a whim
cross the border into the USA to have a look around.

Part of the problem is getting them through Canadian Customs without
passports. The lords of poor writers would smile on me, if they could
do that with just their UK national ID's. 

Even if that isn't exactly possible, I may have a alternate cover
story, but even that alternate story need very loose restriction on
travel between the two countries (they claim they enter Canada on a
private plane landing at a small airport in the alternate scenerio).

Even under the best of circumstances, I'm going to have to do a lot of
'fast talking' to pull this off.

Can any enlighten me about the travel requirements between Canada and
England?

U_P_D

Hi Again BBoy

Any travel between UK and Canada by air would require a Passport to get on the plane. Short of stowing away on a ship (Boat type) then sneaking ashore the same. They could walk accross the artic waste from Norway, Sweden, Finland, all a long way from France it is possible to get there without much paperwork. Ron's birth will never have been registered with the muggles in the UK, so he can't get a legit P'Port we don't know about Harry do we.

I am also a closet HP-F'Fic writer mine looks like becoming a book length. Would anyone like to read it and comment? 

Best of luck

Udder Pendragon

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From vinnia_chrysshallie at yahoo.co.nz  Wed Dec 17 15:19:30 2003
From: vinnia_chrysshallie at yahoo.co.nz (=?iso-8859-1?q?Vinnia?=)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 04:19:30 +1300 (NZDT)
Subject: The Return of the King
In-Reply-To: <brn7k8+10t53@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20031217151930.85294.qmail@web41204.mail.yahoo.com>

Hi all,

I've just come back from ROTK...it's definitely worth
seeing! I've already made plan to see it again!

Del wrote:

is it safe for me to go and see Return of the King ?
Is there any chance I can get through the Shelob scene
without being irrevocably traumatised for life ? I
know it sounds funny, but I would rather skip the
movie than see my worst nightmare on a big screen... 

Me:
First of all, thanks for the warning. I haven't read
the book (yet) so I had no idea there would be an 8
legged creature! Thanks to your warning, I shut my
eyes through that scene. Still had a glimpse of it
though...hope I wouldn't have nightmare about it.

Don't skip the movie...Shelob only appear for a few
minutes, just do what I did ;)

By the way, anyone interested on pictures from the
world premiere? I was lucky enough to see the red
carpet procession, and have a few pictures...they are
not that great, as I had to take them from above (I
was on the balcony of one of the shops in that street)

I know some of you would probably say that's ages
ago...but I stayed in Wellington for a bit after that,
and then was busy doing things I should have done when
I took the week off! Anyway, if you are interested on
the picture, just email me off list.


Vinnia
off to bed...4 am already...

http://personals.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Personals
New people, new possibilities. FREE for a limited time.



From Ali at zymurgy.org  Wed Dec 17 15:45:42 2003
From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali at zymurgy.org)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 15:45:42 -0000
Subject: FF: Unrestricted Travel Between UK and Canada??
In-Reply-To: <brplfa+q0qh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <brptn6+kek9@eGroups.com>

Steve Bboy wrote:-

>>> For example, are Canadians and people from England allow to 
travel freely between those two countries without the need for visas 
or special travel permits? Just an ID and a plane ticket, and you 
are off???>>>

IIRC the only country that Brits can visit without a passport is 
Eire, Southern Ireland.

I did make it into France once without a passport (by accident), but 
then had a hard job explaining myself to British customs officials 
on the way back. Their problem wasn't so much the fact that I was 
trying to get in, but that I had my year old daughter with me (who 
was on my passport and therefore didn't have a passport of her own). 
In the end, they let us through and just told me not to do it again! 

 
>>> Part of the problem is getting them through Canadian Customs 
without passports. The lords of poor writers would smile on me, if 
they could do that with just their UK national ID's.<<< 

We don't have national ID's. the Government is wanting to bring one 
in, and probably will get it through in the next year, but even 
then, I don't think that the plan is for it to be compulsory (not 
initially anyway). The only other forms of ID we have are our 
driving licences. I think new ones have photos on them, but most 
still won't. If you wanted to even try and use this for Harry and 
Ron, Brits can't start get a provisional licence until they are 17 
years old.

Ali





From kcawte at ntlworld.com  Wed Dec 17 23:47:15 2003
From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 15:47:15 -0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] FF: Unrestricted Travel Between UK and Canada??
References: <brplfa+q0qh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00e301c3c4f8$19cb4030$a6706751@kathryn>


> Part of the problem is getting them through Canadian Customs without
> passports. The lords of poor writers would smile on me, if they could
> do that with just their UK national ID's.
>

There's no such thing as a 'national ID'. If you want to prove your identity
in the UK you need either a full British Driving License (which Harry and
Ron wouldn't have, presumably) or a Passport. We don't have any kind of ID
cards or documents - the closest would be a National Insurance number (which
comes on a credit card type thing, but has no picture - and besides witches
and wizards probably wouldn't have one) And even if Harry and Ron didn't
take a passport with them (they could travel round Europe without one) they
wouldn't be able to get back into the UK without one.

K




From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk  Wed Dec 17 16:27:36 2003
From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 16:27:36 -0000
Subject: FF: Unrestricted Travel Between UK and Canada??
In-Reply-To: <brplfa+q0qh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <brq05o+cjm2@eGroups.com>

Steve wrote:


> I have a fan fic that is still very much in the planning stage in
> which Harry and Ron are in the USA illegally. They are at the 
> airport trying to get a airplane ticket back to England, but don't 
> have their passports with them. 

Steve, I think you are going to have to have them travel to the USA 
by magical means, or alternatively have them lose their passports en-
route. I cannot imagine *anyone* traveling (legally) by plane from 
UK to Canada without a passport. 

There is one possibility; that is that the UK authorities somehow 
think Harry and Ron are *Canadian*. They might well do an emergency 
repatriation for two minors stuck in a foreign country.

[ie, the Canadian Consulate would provide some emergency paperwork 
to get them on the flight. *However*, this would only work if Harry 
and Ron are underage. Or if they're being deported from the UK.]
> 
> So, I need a plausable explaination for how they ended up in the 
> USA. It would serve me extremely well if travel between Canada and 
> England was unresticted. That way they could arrive in Canada, and 
> on a whim cross the border into the USA to have a look around.
> 
> Part of the problem is getting them through Canadian Customs 
> without passports. The lords of poor writers would smile on me, if 
> they could do that with just their UK national ID's. 

Err.. No. As others have pointed out, the problem is getting them on 
the *flight* to Canada without a passport. You will not get onto a 
(foreign bound) plane in the UK without showing your passport. Last 
time I traveled abroad I not only had my passport checked, I had a 
retinal/facial features scan as well.

Airports in the UK are very security conscious. Very, very security 
conscious.

The other problem is that the passport *is* the unofficial UK 
national ID.

There are approximately 58 million people in the UK. 44 million of 
them hold passports. More people hold a passport than hold a driving 
licence (41 million people hold a driving licence).

I use my passport all the time. As ID. 

> 
> Even if that isn't exactly possible, I may have a alternate cover
> story, but even that alternate story need very loose restriction on
> travel between the two countries (they claim they enter Canada on a
> private plane landing at a small airport in the alternate 
scenerio).

Still need a passport. A private plane would have to file a flight 
plan and would be expected to go through Customs and immigration 
like everyone else. 

If Harry and Ron claim they entered Canada on a private airplane, at 
a small airport, where no one asked for their passports, they might 
as well just add 'and our pilot kept offering us Coke, but we told 
him we weren't thirsty.' ;-)

> 
> Even under the best of circumstances, I'm going to have to do a 
>  lot of 'fast talking' to pull this off.

Accidentally hitching a lift with international drug smugglers 
sounds your best bet...

Pip!Squeak




From delwynmarch at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 17 15:57:35 2003
From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 15:57:35 -0000
Subject: FF: Unrestricted Travel Between UK and Canada??
In-Reply-To: <brplfa+q0qh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <brpudf+qov3@eGroups.com>

bboy_mn at y... wrote:

> That way they could arrive in Canada, and on a whim cross the 
> border into the USA to have a look around.

I'm French, I was an exchange student in Canada 10 years ago, and I 
needed my passport to go from Canada to the States. I couldn't cross 
that border "on a whim". Well, legally, I mean :-)

Del





From delwynmarch at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 17 14:44:27 2003
From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 14:44:27 -0000
Subject: Fw:   How to get kicked out of Return of the King (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <brn7k8+10t53@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <brpq4b+rebe@eGroups.com>


Thanks guys, for your answers !

Saitaina said :

> As a fellow arachnophobia, I can say that she didn't look much like 
> a spider from the trailers.

My husband didn't download this particular trailer, and I didn't ask 
for it... (sheepish grin)

> Unlike a certain movie associated with this list that I screamed 
> right in the middle of the theatre when they came on.

I had been preparing myself for that scene, and I was ready to bury 
my face in my husband's shoulder if they were too terrifiying. But in 
the end, I found them too unrealistic, too mechanical-looking 
somehow. Not that I didn't feel "a bit" scared, though :-)

Tammy said :

> Go see the movie, but take someone you absolutely trust with you to 
> tell you when you can open your eyes because Shelob is gone. Don't 
> let such a fear hold you back from seeing the climax of the trilogy!

Yes, I guess that's what I'll do.

> And as for 'Eight Legged Freaks' . . . yeah, the spiders are huge 
> and they hunt people, but, well, it's kinda hard to STAY afraid of 
> a spider that does a goofy Tarzan yell while sliding down a tension 
> wire and slamming into a vent cover.

LOL ! Sure, told that way, it seems more funny than anything else. 
But honestly, when I saw the trailer, I had to close my eyes after a 
minute or so and force myself to breathe deeply and slowly, while my 
husband was holding my hand and whispering soothing things in my 
ear :-) But I had been taken by surprise, I didn't know it was 
coming, so that didn't help.

Illyana said :

> Shelob is a LOT more realistic-looking than the acromantulas in 
> COS, but she does not look as much like a spider.

Hum... Not very helpful, I'm afraid, can't make up my mind whether I 
prefer it this way or not :-) But thanks anyway.

> Those of you who have read the LOTR books know that Shelob isn't 
> quite a spider, but more like a monster that resembles a spider.

Well it looks like a spider and it acts like spiders do in my 
nightmares (in my dreams, spiders are always smart, evil and out to 
get me), so for me it's a spider ! And a giant one too ! HEEEELP ! 
(Not to mention that she stinks ;-)

> If you can muster up the courage to look, though, you definitely 
> should! Shelob looks fantastic, and that scene is very dramatic.

I'll try... Maybe...

> Hope this helps! Don't miss the movie just because of a silly spider
> that's not even real!

Now that's what *you* think ! *I* know better, hee hee... ;-)

And finally Amber :

> Well...what better a way than to face your fear than in a safe
> environment, with your husband, in a theatre where obviously nothing
> bad can happen to you?

You obviously don't have my level of sick imagination when it comes 
to spiders :-)

> Could be worse...my mom had to face her arachnaphobia head on when 
> my brother brought home a tarantula as a pet last summer. I had to 
> return to Ottawa a few days too early, so I missed the reaction, 
> but apparently it was an interesting sight.

He was lucky. Had it been me, things would have been clear : "it's me 
or your spider !", lol !

> The point is, it did make her get over it...

I've been thinking about that kind of therapy. But I guess the fact 
that my heart starts racing, my blood starts pounding in my ears, my 
muscles turn to lead, and a cold sweat breaks all over my body just 
at the *idea* of such a therapy, indicates I wouldn't be too good a 
subject, huh ?

As for your friend, Jen, tell her she's got a companion in misery on 
the other side of the world ;-)

Del







From saitaina at wizzards.net  Wed Dec 17 16:32:15 2003
From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 08:32:15 -0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: FF: Unrestricted Travel Between UK and Canada??
References: <brpudf+qov3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <01ac01c3c4bb$56544e80$6b311c40@aoldsl.net>

Del wrote:

<I'm French, I was an exchange student in
Canada 10 years ago, and I
needed my passport to go from Canada to the
States. I couldn't cross
that border "on a whim". Well, legally, I
mean :-)>

Which is odd as we can hop the Mexican/US
boarder on a whim with no problem.    I did
it all the time when I was in California
growing up.

Saitaina
****
Brave and bold they're not.  They ain't the
bravest heroes...but they're the only ones
we've got.


http://www.livejournal.com/users/saitaina

"No, one day I'm going to look back on all
this and plow face-first into a tree because
I was looking the wrong bloody way. And I'll
still be having a better day than I am
today."




From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk  Wed Dec 17 16:41:04 2003
From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 16:41:04 -0000
Subject: ROTK - First Impressions contains spoilers beware
Message-ID: <brq0v0+6v44@eGroups.com>

Just been, just back.  Gobsmacked.  Here's a few incoherent thoughts.

Some details are below ? protected for the worried reader by spoiler 
space.  But first some general comments on the film.

One watching will not be enough for me.  In fact, I can see me going 
4 or 5 times at least just to catch every visual and nuance.

Wise critics have called it a fantasy masterpiece.  I don't disagree 
either, but just take out the qualifying adjective.  It is a 
masterpiece, pure and simple.  Yes there will be parts of the books 
omitted that will annoy, and others will maybe not agree with 
Jackson's retelling of certain episodes.   Be that as it may ? it's 
still the sort of film that all fans of the books wanted.  I spent 
most of the movie looking as stupid as you can with your mouth wide 
open in amazement.  The visuals are beyond belief.

It's a profoundly moving film too.  The cinema was pleasingly packed 
out, and I wasn't alone in finding a number of scenes tear-jerking.

The acting ? as stunning as ever.  Go and see it.

SPOILERS:

a
a
a
a
a
a
a
a
a
a
a
a
a
a

a
a
a
a
a
a
a
a
a
a
a
a
a
a
a
a


Things I particularly liked
 in no especial order of preference.

The battle scenes were even better than Two Towers.  Pelennor Fields 
is just awesome.  The special effects raise the bar yet again.

The destruction of the Witch King.

The horrible atrocity of catapulting heads into Minas Tirith.  I had 
wondered if they'd actually do this.  Personally I'm glad they did 
because it showed just what the enemy was capable of.

The enemy host issuing from Minas Morgul (which looked horribly 
spooky).

The muster of the Rohan troops.

The lighting of the war beacons along the mountains.

Shelob and Shelob's lair.  And Shelob really was horrible.

Gollum ? of course.

Mordor looked absolutely hellish.

Loads of other great stuff too which will come back to me when I 
stop feeling like I've been clopped round the head.

ANYTHING I'D CHANGE?

Yes.  Put back Christopher Lee and cut down the coda at the end, 
though I know I'll get both next year when the EE DVD is released.

June





From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 17 17:45:03 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (bboy_mn at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 17:45:03 -0000
Subject: FF: Travel Between UK and Canada -DETAILS
In-Reply-To: <brplfa+q0qh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <brq4mv+6h6n@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, bboy_mn at y... wrote:

> 
> Reason I ask-
> 
> I have a fan fic that is still very much in the planning stage in
> which Harry and Ron are in the USA illegally. They are at the 
> airport trying to get a airplane ticket back to England, but don't 
> have their passports with them. 
> 
> So, I need a plausable explaination for how they ended up in the USA.
>
> ...edited...
> 
> Can any enlighten me about the travel requirements between Canada and
> England?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> bboy_mn

bboy_mn:

As usual one of my too long posts was too short on details.

Harry and Ron are in their mid-30's, year approx. 2016 or there abouts.

Harry and Ron are rich from their investments in Weasley Enterprise,
which is a collection of businesses that Weasley's have accumulated
over the years. They are all very rich and successful, and have both a
muggle and a magic branch of Weasley Enterprises. Harry is the largest
shareholder due to his original investment of his Tri-Wizards
Tournement winnings.

They travel TO the USA by magical means, that's why they don't have
their passports with them. During a course of events, they lose their
magical method of travel. They do this by choice with the intent of
browsing around, not thinking of the complexity of getting out of the
USA until it's too late. 

They have their credit cards, muggle UK cash in their pockets, their
UK drivers licenses, their many business cards, their wands (which can
be satisfactorly explained to security), and they have business
references in the USA (Chicago distributor); that plus the clothes on
their back, and 13 full bottles of Blenheim's ginger ale (best ginger
ale ever made) plus 3 empty bottles all in a brown paper grocery bag.
They arrive at the airport from the country side of Virginia in a car
they have rented.

Now they have to invent a cover story to tell airport security. The
intent is to convince security to let them travel back to London where
Fred and George will be waiting with their passports.

I'm hoping they can provide sufficient references to convince airport
security that they are not indigent, criminals, or terrorists; just a
couple of rich English blokes who made a mistake. 

Even if they say they lost their passports, they still have to explain
how they got there. So that doesn't solve the problem. 

Establishing their credibility and legitimacy is easy, the hard part
is for Harry and Ron to come up with a fake cover story for how they
got into the USA in the first place. That's where I need the help.
They travel to the USA magically, but they can't tell that to security
and US Imigrations.

The initial magical trip to Virginia on business where they meet a
southern plantation owner and a crazy Texan in a pick-up truck, is
just the prelude to a greater story that can't happen unless Ron and
Harry get on the plane.

I do have one ace-in-the-hole that I can play if I have too. Harry and
Ron know Prince William (long story). I'm sure he would be willing to
make a few phone calls to on their behalf.

Look like free travel between UK and Canada isn't going to work. 

Thank for the help that was given and any more that you can give.

bboy_mn

 




From saitaina at wizzards.net  Wed Dec 17 17:54:36 2003
From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 09:54:36 -0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: FF: Travel Between UK and Canada -DETAILS
References: <brq4mv+6h6n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <01d801c3c4c6$d78cbf40$6b311c40@aoldsl.net>

bboy_mn wrote:

<Establishing their credibility and
legitimacy is easy, the hard part
is for Harry and Ron to come up with a fake
cover story for how they
got into the USA in the first place. That's
where I need the help.
They travel to the USA magically, but they
can't tell that to security
and US Immigrations.>

Well actually they could say they arrived
magically if US Customs had a wizard working
there which I'm sure they would for just this
instance, but that's too easy.

They could always say they were smuggled in
and instantly be kicked back out again.  Only
trouble with that is with their driver's
licenses I don't know if they would be
allowed back on future visits.

They could also go the Prince Will route and
have emergency issued diplomatic passports,
but that would raise a few eyebrows if two
English diplomats suddenly appeared on the
books that no one's heard of.  Even for a
friend I don't know if the Prince would want
to raise that many questions.

They could also run really fast and obliviate
the customs people but that would a. take
forever and b. also raise too many eyebrows.

This really is a pickle, even for someone
such as me who creates odd situations and
perfectly reasonable solutions.  Your best
bet is for them to buy tickets, and apparate
onto the plane (via the bathroom) but that's
a little to easy and probably has a problem I
can't see.  I'll probably come up with
something later but for now these are all
that are occurring to my sleep addled brain.

Saitaina
****
Brave and bold they're not.  They ain't the
bravest heroes...but they're the only ones
we've got.


http://www.livejournal.com/users/saitaina

"No, one day I'm going to look back on all
this and plow face-first into a tree because
I was looking the wrong bloody way. And I'll
still be having a better day than I am
today."




From kcawte at ntlworld.com  Thu Dec 18 02:02:48 2003
From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 18:02:48 -0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: FF: Travel Between UK and Canada -DETAILS
References: <brq4mv+6h6n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <003501c3c50b$14113510$a6706751@kathryn>



>
> They have their credit cards, muggle UK cash in their pockets, their
> UK drivers licenses, their many business cards, their wands (which can
> be satisfactorly explained to security), and they have business
> references in the USA (Chicago distributor); that plus the clothes on
> their back, and 13 full bottles of Blenheim's ginger ale (best ginger
> ale ever made) plus 3 empty bottles all in a brown paper grocery bag.
> They arrive at the airport from the country side of Virginia in a car
> they have rented.
>

Oh well that makes it simpler - they go to the British Embassy and explain
that they have somehow lost their passports (coming up with a convincing
story for having lost those but not the credit cards or money is a little
more difficult but not impossible). Then they let the British Embassy get
them home - usually done through the issuing of temporary documents, a
consular official *might accompany them to the airport to help with any
problems (especially if they're wealthy and influential). People do lose
their passports and it's one of the British Embassy's main responsibilities
to help them out. They might get new passports issued if they coordinate
with the UK and produce the requisite information and then have them
couriered to the US if the boys can wait a few days (in an emergency the
Passport agency can be convinced to produce one in less than a week, I am
told). Provided they have had passports at one time (and actually still do
but they probably shouldn't mention that because getting to the US without
them would have been impossible - or at least would seem so to muggle
authorities)

Having said all that - it is possible that the Ministry of Magic would have
its own equivalent of an embassy in foreign countries. In which case they
could help instead.

K




From strom5150 at charter.net  Wed Dec 17 19:10:16 2003
From: strom5150 at charter.net (strom5150 at charter.net)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 19:10:16 -0000
Subject: Pervasiveness of DE Incompetence
Message-ID: <brq9mo+k9qf@eGroups.com>

Just thought I'd share this tidbit...

Last night, we were playing with a video game we'd just bought, which 
has the original version of Pac-Man, along with other old arcade 
games. (Remember, the ones before blood would spill all over the 
screen, and only required one button and the joystick...but I 
digress...)

Anyway, one game is called Bosconian, and you fly around in your 
spaceship and try to destroy space stations. In the meantime, other 
ships try to shoot you, etc.

At random points in the game, you are attacked by a group of enemy 
ships in formation. Their impending appearance would be announced on 
the screen, with sound effects to indicate that this would be Very 
Bad For You.

So, the six or so ships attack in formation. You turn to fire at 
them. You hit one of them. The rest run away. Every time. No kidding-
that was the extent of the *danger*.

My husband's comment?
"Those ships must be flown by Death Eaters."

Kind of says it all, IMHO...

Danielle




From fullmetalcardigan66 at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 17 19:05:49 2003
From: fullmetalcardigan66 at yahoo.com (fullmetalcardigan66 at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 19:05:49 -0000
Subject: Apostrophising over Yahoo!
In-Reply-To: <brnq45+j6gp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <brq9ed+40j7@eGroups.com>

> > > --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, dfrankiswork at n... wrote:
> > > > What are they doing? All these ' are driving me mad.

Apostrophes?  What apostrophes?  Most of my problems don't concern 
punctuation.  I feel left out all of a sudden.

Kate (new and happy to be here)





From tabouli at unite.com.au  Wed Dec 17 23:00:27 2003
From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 10:00:27 +1100
Subject: Antonia Forest
Message-ID: <003601c3c4f1$93ab5ef0$1c7032d2@useriq2qgc104q>

Hey - there really are a couple of other Antonia Forest fans on OTC!  Who'd have thought it?  That makes a whole... *five* Forest fans!

Erm.

So OK, no point starting an Antonia Forest mailing list just yet (she muses sadly).  Actually, the first mailing list I ever got involved with in a major way (Girls' Own) was mostly due to wanting somewhere to analyse the AF books, and analyse 'em I did, in excruciating detail.  Some very sad news: Antonia herself has just died, aged 88, without finishing her 13th Marlow book:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/obituaries/story/0,3604,1102784,00.html

I was lucky enough to get a letter from her and meet her in 1998, although as I detailed here a couple of years ago, the meeting was very awkward (she was a shy old lady, I overcompensated in the worst possible way and it all didn't work.  Winces at the memory).

Naama:
> OH - MY - GOD!!! Have you any idea how long I've been yearning for 
sequels to the first book?!  I found Automn Term in a used books store years ago, and for some 
reason decided to take it. And it was wonderful! As a child, I read 
all the Enid Blyton school stories, and was amazed at how similar yet 
different this book was. Deeper, realer, better. I've searched to see 
whether she wrote sequels, but couldn't find any mention of it. 
Hurrah! How do you think I can get the other books?<

Ah.  Well.  Some mixed news.  For years and years AF books have been just *impossible* to get hold of.  They were all out of print and collectors' items and insanely expensive even if you did manage to track one down.  I have all but three of her books, but long despaired of completing my collection: many's the second-hand bookseller who's said to me "Oooo, Antonia Forest, you'd be lucky, *everyone's* after those."  However, all is not lost - by popular demand they're starting to reprint them now:

http://www.maulu.demon.co.uk/AF/availability/reprint.html

Alicia:
> I loved these books! Antonia Forest created such a strong family 
history for the Marlows - as well as the 4 school stories and 6 
holiday stories, she also wrote two historical (Elizabethan era) 
books, "The Player's Boy" and "The Players and the Rebels", about an 
actor who was an ancestor of the Marlows. He's mentioned in at least 
one of novels about the more recent Marlow family.<

Forgot about those two, mostly because I wasn't as taken by them.  My favorite is probably "The Ready-Made Family", for its adept handling of a soap operatic premise - the 19 year old brilliant sister marrying the middle-aged widower with three kids and bringing them home to stay with her family, with friction and drama all round.  It culminates in a scene where Nicola goes to Oxford to look for one of the kids.  I actually took a copy of the book to Oxford in 1998 and retraced Nicola's steps, taking photos of scenes in the book (but then, I'm like that).

Those who've read them, who are your favorite characters?  I know Nicola's the heroine and we're suppose to love her etc.etc., but I always found her a bit too noble for my tastes (AF's Mary Sue, perhaps?  I did wonder when I talked to AF about her: she said "Not *my* Nicola" in response to something I'd asked).  Give me her temperamental twin sister Lawrie and her crafty best friend Tim any day.  Far more interesting.  And who could be unmoved by Patrick (swoon!) and the delightfully cheeky Peter?

Tabouli.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From thomasmwall at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 17 23:21:06 2003
From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (thomasmwall at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 23:21:06 -0000
Subject: Apostrophising over Yahoo!
In-Reply-To: <brnq45+j6gp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <brqod2+m2va@eGroups.com>

June wrote:
I'm sure glad to see these [apostrophe] posts, I was worried it was 
just me - even on two different computers, and too paranoid to ask 
if anyone else had it.

pathetic really./END QUOTE

Tom, laughing spasmodically, falls out of his chair and onto the 
floor.

Tom:
June! That's *exactly* what I was thinking! I'm glad that you caught 
it first, and that I'm not alone. 

Could a techno-master [i.e. not me] explain what the heck that stuff 
means and why it would happen? ;-)

-Tom





From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com  Thu Dec 18 00:15:39 2003
From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 00:15:39 -0000
Subject: I just can't believe this...
In-Reply-To: <brl35a+c67g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <brqrjb+rgci@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "joywitch_m_curmudgeon" 
<joym999 at a...> wrote:
> Here's some more, this time complaints about wand contents: "This 
> wand contained the three elements favored most by Satanists:  
> Unicorn, Phoenix, and Dragons.  Both the Unicorns and Phoenix 
> Birds are symbols of Antichrist, while the Dragon is clearly Satan 
> [Revelation 12:9]"  I didn't realize that the Bible talked about 
> unicorns, phoenixes and dragons.  Is that in the New Testament?

No, it's not, and when unicorns and phoenixes HAVE been brought up 
in Christian contexts, it's in a positive way.  This person is a 
complete loon (no capitals--I don't mean this in a good way).  In my 
Dictionary of Christian Lore and Legend (JCJ Metford, Thames and 
Hudson, 1983) it says that the pagan description of the unicorn 
(enemy of the elephant, hunters can't approach it, attracted to 
virgins) was turned into a Christian allegory.  Christ was said to 
be the spiritual unicorn; putting his head on the Virgin's lap 
symbolized the Incarnation, among other things (being led captive to 
the royal palace, being betrayed, appearance before Pilate and 
Herod).  The unicorn's horn was said to symbolize the cross.  There 
are also legends concerning chastity and unicorns associated with 
St. Justina, of Antioch in the 3rd century and St. Justina of Padua 
in the fourth century.  (I don't know why they're both named 
Justina.)

The Phoenix is also a Christian symbol of the resurrection and an 
emblem of immortality, according to DCLL.  

Added to this, dragons are clearly being associated with the evil 
people in the books, so to complain about dragons being connected 
with Satan is specious--she WANTS people to make this connection, 
obviously.  Gah.

These people are not just crazy, they're stupid.

And that part about Neville trying to catch his eye is where they 
get a homoerotic subtext?  As I said, stupid; how you could go to 
the Neville/eye thing and miss such stuff as Harry living in a 
closet, being bound for Stonewall High, being called "abnormal" by 
his uncle ad nauseum and feeling like he's found his true self for 
the first time when he holds the right wand is beyond me. <g>

--Barb, who thinks that the idea of Harry's "metaphorical gayness" 
would be completely lost on these idiots

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent
http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb 




From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Thu Dec 18 00:30:37 2003
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (dfrankiswork at netscape.net)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 00:30:37 -0000
Subject: More unbelievability
Message-ID: <brqsfd+ktig@eGroups.com>

I was travelling on the tube today, and noticed one of the adverts 
was offering help for men with erection problems.

About halfway down, it said something like (I can't quite remember 
verbatim) 'Men with erection problems need not give up hope as there 
are a number of oral treatments available.'

Who writes these things?

David




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Thu Dec 18 02:50:37 2003
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (coriolan at worldnet.att.net)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 02:50:37 -0000
Subject: Mirabile Dictu! An Actor Who Understands What He's Portraying!
Message-ID: <brr4lt+tjmm@eGroups.com>

As Viggo Mortensen preaches Peace, Siblinghood, and Other Things 
Bright and Beautiful, a different theme is invoked in this interview 
with John Rhys-Davies, Gimli in LOTR:


http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/beard200312170849.asp

The prophecy made by Rhys-Davies' father in 1955 was earlier issued 
by Hilaire Belloc in his 1938 book The Great Heresies:

"It has always seemed to me possible, and even probable, that there 
would be a resurrection of Islam and that our sons or our grandsons 
would see the renewal of that tremendous struggle between the 
Christian culture and what has been for more than a thousand years 
its greatest opponent....  The future always comes as a surprise but 
political wisdom consists in attempting at least some partial 
judgment of what that surprise may be.  And for my part I cannot but 
believe that a main unexpected thing of the future is the return of 
Islam.  Since religion is at the root of all political movements and 
changes and since we have here a very great religion physically 
paralysed but morally intensely alive, we are in the presence of an 
unstable equilibrium which cannot remain permanently unstable....

  - CMC  (be very afraid)




From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com  Thu Dec 18 03:16:39 2003
From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (IggyMcSnurd)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 21:16:39 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] More unbelievability
In-Reply-To: <brqsfd+ktig@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000401c3c515$60cdf000$8386aec7@Einstein>


>I was travelling on the tube today, and noticed one of the adverts 
>was offering help for men with erection problems.
>
>About halfway down, it said something like (I can't quite remember 
>verbatim) 'Men with erection problems need not give up hope as there 
>are a number of oral treatments available.'
>
>Who writes these things?
>
>David


Someone who apparently knows their job, since the ad apparently caught
your eye and stuck in your mind... just as it was supposed to.

*grin*

I'll bet you dollars to donuts that it sounded exactly as it was
supposed to.


Iggy McSnurd







From thomasmwall at yahoo.com  Thu Dec 18 05:14:15 2003
From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (thomasmwall at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 05:14:15 -0000
Subject: Highlights of ROTK -- SPOILERS HERE! (WAS Re: ROTK - First Impressions
In-Reply-To: <brq0v0+6v44@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <brrd37+3aah@eGroups.com>


June:
One watching will not be enough for me.  In fact, I can see me going 
4 or 5 times at least just to catch every visual and nuance.

Tom:
Yep, I'm going to see it again on Friday! ;-)


June:
Wise critics have called it a fantasy masterpiece.  I don't disagree 
either, but just take out the qualifying adjective.  It is a 
masterpiece, pure and simple.  

Tom:
Hear, hear!


June:
The battle scenes were even better than Two Towers. Pelennor Fields
is just awesome. The special effects raise the bar yet again.

The destruction of the Witch King.

The horrible atrocity of catapulting heads into Minas Tirith. I had
wondered if they'd actually do this. Personally I'm glad they did
because it showed just what the enemy was capable of.

The enemy host issuing from Minas Morgul (which looked horribly
spooky).

The muster of the Rohan troops.

The lighting of the war beacons along the mountains.

Shelob and Shelob's lair. And Shelob really was horrible.

Gollum ? of course.

Mordor looked absolutely hellish./END QUOTE

Tom:
Ooh, ooh!

Sean Astin's acting. Where did *that* performance come from? Outta 
*nowhere!*

Minas Tirith and the bucolic and stately citadel at the top. The 
miniatures for that set were just (I normally hate using this word, 
but it works here) GRAND!

Denethor's madness was horrifying, almost - I might dare to venture -
 moreso than in the book. Faramir's hurt at what his father says was 
very, very compelling and replete with resonant emotion. Ooh, and 
what about that scene with Denethor eating while Pippin sings? It 
was like poetry.

Legolas' acrobatics atop the Oliphaunt. Wow! That was done so well, 
as though it was a dance! Another big crowd pleaser.

Gandalf riding out to save the troops and the light from his 
staff... yeah, I know it was in the trailer, but it was still an 
image that is stamped on my memory.

Gandalf's ambidextrous battle-prowess. Man, does he kick ass or 
what? ;-)

What was up with that deformed Orc that seemed to be in charge? He 
was bizarre, and kind of, well, scary but in a very realistic way 
that I can't quite articulate. Such malice.

The *look* on Theoden's face when he realizes that Eowyn is at the 
battle. At first, he just looks at her, but then he does 
this 'furrowed brow' thing that is just hilarious!

Anyhoo, I'm sure there's more, but I gotta split.

-Tom






From tabouli at unite.com.au  Thu Dec 18 05:58:28 2003
From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 16:58:28 +1100
Subject: The Harry Potter brand...
Message-ID: <00a301c3c52b$f8bf5460$2adc32d2@useriq2qgc104q>

A couple of years ago, at the height of my Potterphilia, I went shopping for a pair of tracksuit pants.  Lo and behold, I found a pair... with the brand name Harry Potter!  No apparent connection to the books at all, but it was too good a coincidence to pass up.  Grinning from ear to ear, I handed over the cash.

Today I saw this article:

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/12/17/1071337025918.html?from=storyrhs

Heh!  That's the store I bought 'em from all right!  My Potter pants have their moment in the limelight...

Tabouli.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From gishdaydream at hotmail.com  Thu Dec 18 08:33:32 2003
From: gishdaydream at hotmail.com (gishstar1)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 08:33:32 -0000
Subject: soooo long!!!!
Message-ID: <brroos+10fh3@eGroups.com>

Hi everyone! I know it has been FOREVER since I have posted. I would 
have posted this on the main board HPfGPs, it felt wrong and it's not 
really reccommended.. Plus I have no idea where the topics are going 
nowadays... 

Some probably don't really remember me, I joined for a few months in 
the summer. However, for some reason I was thinking of Nimbus 2003 
which I missed out on and got to thinking "Doesn't this group sort 
of 'do it'"... I couldn't remember.. HOWEVER... if 'we' do coordinate 
it... I have some really cute/great ideas to make it more "Harry 
Potter-esque" I'm wondering if anyone knows who I can talk to to 
share some of my ideas with. Not to mention I've been thinking about 
these all summer long. If I don't share these soon, I'll explode!

As far as my Harry Potter research goes.. The only thing that I'm 
most concerned about is Percy and I was too embarassed to post that 
on the main chatter board... 

OH! And what is up with these threats? Can someone fill me in on 
that? Because this sounds awful! Basically, I just want to know 
what's going on with the board in general. I'm on my semester break 
right now so if someone could please please please fill me in... I 
would really appreciate this! I feel bad for not posting, but you 
know how school can get.

Thanks!!!
Ari

Great HP RPG: http://pub60.ezboard.com/bhogwartstheprohecy




From delwynmarch at yahoo.com  Thu Dec 18 10:06:16 2003
From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (Doriane)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 10:06:16 -0000
Subject: FF: Unrestricted Travel Between UK and Canada??
In-Reply-To: <01ac01c3c4bb$56544e80$6b311c40@aoldsl.net>
Message-ID: <brru6o+nult@eGroups.com>

Saitaina wrote:

> Which is odd as we can hop the Mexican/US
> boarder on a whim with no problem.    I did
> it all the time when I was in California
> growing up.

My Canadian friends could do that too. They just needed some kind of 
ID if I remember well. But for me, or whoever wasn't either American 
or Canadian, we had to have our passports with us. I once traveled 
with a bunch of Canadians, our driver was Australian, and for sure 
both she and I got checked thoroughly at the border.

Del






From saitaina at wizzards.net  Thu Dec 18 10:33:36 2003
From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 02:33:36 -0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: FF: Unrestricted Travel Between UK and Canada??
References: <brru6o+nult@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <007001c3c552$664390c0$95361c40@aoldsl.net>

Del wrote:

<My Canadian friends could do that too. They
just needed some kind of
ID if I remember well. But for me, or whoever
wasn't either American
or Canadian, we had to have our passports
with us. I once traveled
with a bunch of Canadians, our driver was
Australian, and for sure
both she and I got checked thoroughly at the
border.>

One of the few times I'm glad to be an
American...hopping borders for cheap meds.
Which is the only real reason I used to go to
Mexico, well, that and to be fleeced of my
money by cute little kids who probably had
quite a bit by the end of the day...

Pity I'm no longer in Cally now, could really
go for cheap pink antibiotic.  Anyone want to
cut out my lungs for me?  Anyone?  Aw damn.
:o)

Saitaina
****
Brave and bold they're not.  They ain't the
bravest heroes...but they're the only ones
we've got.


http://www.livejournal.com/users/saitaina

"No, one day I'm going to look back on all
this and plow face-first into a tree because
I was looking the wrong bloody way. And I'll
still be having a better day than I am
today."




From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk  Thu Dec 18 11:08:40 2003
From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 11:08:40 -0000
Subject: More unbelievability
In-Reply-To: <brqsfd+ktig@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <brs1ro+esue@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, dfrankiswork at n... wrote:
> I was travelling on the tube today, and noticed one of the adverts 
> was offering help for men with erection problems.
> 
> About halfway down, it said something like (I can't quite remember 
> verbatim) 'Men with erection problems need not give up hope as 
there 
> are a number of oral treatments available.'
> 
> Who writes these things?
> 
> David

Who writes these things?

Advertising copywriters, who have an unusually high incidence of 
cocaine abuse.

I rest my case.

June




From s_ings at yahoo.com  Thu Dec 18 11:51:14 2003
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 06:51:14 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Happy Birthday, Jacqui and Judy (belated)!
Message-ID: <20031218115114.74777.qmail@web41107.mail.yahoo.com>

*hangs streamers, blows up the balloons and runs off
to bring in the food carts, working as fast as
possible with bandaged fingers*

Yes, I've had to iron my fingers for missing two
birthdays. My sincere apologies to the two birthday
honourees.

Monday's birthday honouree was Jacqui and yesterday's
was Judy. Belated birthday owls can be sent care of
this list or directly to: jasonjacqui at yahoo.com and
judy at judyshapiro.com

I hope you both had wonderful days that brought
everything you wished for.

Happy Birthday, Jacqui!
Happy Birthday, Judy!

Sheryll the bad Birthday Elf

=====
http://www.livejournal.com/community/conventionalley/

______________________________________________________________________ 
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca



From s_ings at yahoo.com  Thu Dec 18 11:56:54 2003
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 06:56:54 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Happy Birthday x 2!
Message-ID: <20031218115654.24051.qmail@web41103.mail.yahoo.com>

*surveys the current decorations with satisfaction and
scampers out to bring in extra food and the additional
two birthday cakes*

Gosh, there's going to be quite a party in here today!
If anyone needs more food while I'm at work, don't
hesitate to head for the refrigerators in the other
room and bring out more goodies.

Today's birthday honourees are HarmonyWeasley4ever and
A Goldfeesh. Birthday owls can be sent care of this
list or directly to: PurpleBear1976 at aol.com and
ameliagoldfeesh at yahoo.com

I hope your days are filled with fun and magic.

Happy Birthday, HarmonyWeasley4ever!
Happy Birthday, A Goldfeesh!

Sheryll the Birthday Elf

=====
http://www.livejournal.com/community/conventionalley/

______________________________________________________________________ 
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca



From neonsister at ameritech.net  Thu Dec 18 15:26:41 2003
From: neonsister at ameritech.net (neonsister at ameritech.net)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 15:26:41 -0000
Subject: Elijah Wood
Message-ID: <brsgvh+julc@eGroups.com>

Did anyone see Elijah Wood on Conan O'Brien's show last night?  Conan 
asked him if he ever gets mistaken for other celebrities, and Elijah 
said he gets mistaken for 'Harry Potter' a lot!  Conan went on to 
comment that Late Night drummer Max Weinberg also looks like "a 
creepy Harry Potter", lol.

Tracy *stayed up late last night*




From neonsister at ameritech.net  Thu Dec 18 15:46:07 2003
From: neonsister at ameritech.net (neonsister at ameritech.net)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 15:46:07 -0000
Subject: Maybe it's easier on a broom...
Message-ID: <brsi3v+2odd@eGroups.com>

A recent experience showed me that if I ever play Quidditch, Seeker 
is not the position for me!  At the wildlife center where I volunteer 
I was attempting to weigh a gray catbird (here's what they look like, 
if anyone's interested:  http://tinyurl.com/cvhr ).  Of course, it 
got away from me and took off flying around the room.  Thankfully I'd 
closed the door already. The bird and I were confined to a room about 
the size of a walk-in closet; which doesn't sound very large but it 
is when you're trying to grab a small flying object that moves very 
fast!  I was jumping from chair to chair with a towel in one hand (to 
cover the bird if I got close enough) and a net in the other. Finally 
I caught it - I'm sure all the other birds in the room enjoyed 
watching the spectacle and laughed about it all night!

Tracy  *caught the grey snitch...eventually*  





From gishdaydream at hotmail.com  Thu Dec 18 15:57:42 2003
From: gishdaydream at hotmail.com (gishstar1)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 15:57:42 -0000
Subject: Elijah Wood
In-Reply-To: <brsgvh+julc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <brsipm+p6gk@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, neonsister at a... wrote:
> Did anyone see Elijah Wood on Conan O'Brien's show last night?  
Conan 
> asked him if he ever gets mistaken for other celebrities, and 
Elijah 
> said he gets mistaken for 'Harry Potter' a lot!  Conan went on to 
> comment that Late Night drummer Max Weinberg also looks like "a 
> creepy Harry Potter", lol.
> 
> Tracy *stayed up late last night*

Yes! I saw that too! I love it when Conan makes fun of Harry Potter. 
Only Conan and my boyfriend can make fun of him. ;)




From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com  Thu Dec 18 16:19:43 2003
From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (IggyMcSnurd)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 10:19:43 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Maybe it's easier on a broom...
In-Reply-To: <brsi3v+2odd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000001c3c582$c3045fd0$e986aec7@Einstein>


>A recent experience showed me that if I ever play Quidditch, Seeker 
>is not the position for me!? At the wildlife center where I volunteer 
>I was attempting to weigh a gray catbird (here's what they look like, 
>if anyone's interested:? http://tinyurl.com/cvhr ).? Of course, it 
>got away from me and took off flying around the room.? Thankfully I'd 
>closed the door already. The bird and I were confined to a room about 
>the size of a walk-in closet; which doesn't sound very large but it 
>is when you're trying to grab a small flying object that moves very 
>fast!? I was jumping from chair to chair with a towel in one hand (to 
>cover the bird if I got close enough) and a net in the other. Finally 
>I caught it - I'm sure all the other birds in the room enjoyed 
>watching the spectacle and laughed about it all night!
>
>Tracy? *caught the grey snitch...eventually*? 

My uncle Robert would have made a good Seeker.  I witnessed him catch
their family's pet canary that had gotten loose in their garage.  He
snagged it in midair as it flew by at full speed, dodging the entire
time.  The amazing thing is that, as quickly as he caught the bird, it
didn't get hurt in the slightest.  (And remember, a canary is the same
size as a snitch....)


Iggy McSnurd
(who doesn't want to mention what he first thought you were talking
about with this topic...)


 





From cwood at tattersallpub.com  Thu Dec 18 17:58:40 2003
From: cwood at tattersallpub.com (mstattersall)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 17:58:40 -0000
Subject: Mirabile Dictu! An Actor Who Understands What He's Portraying!
In-Reply-To: <brr4lt+tjmm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <brspsg+4c93@eGroups.com>

I knew I liked John Rhys-Davies for more than just being the world's 
most tossable dwarf. It's refreshing to know that there are a few 
left in Hollywood who aren't so self-absorbed that they are aware of 
what is actually happening in the world. 

On a lighter note, his humor is often priceless. I was watching a 
feature on the making of the "Fellowship of the Ring" game, which 
utilizes the voices of the film actors. He was ad-libbing some 
reactions for Gimli and out of his mouth came, in his rich 
baritone, "Crap! It's a trap!"

ROTFLMAO then, and even now, as I remember.
Ms. Tattersall

> As Viggo Mortensen preaches Peace, Siblinghood, and Other Things 
> Bright and Beautiful, a different theme is invoked in this 
interview 
> with John Rhys-Davies, Gimli in LOTR:
> 
> 
> http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/beard200312170849.asp
> 
> The prophecy made by Rhys-Davies' father in 1955 was earlier issued 
> by Hilaire Belloc in his 1938 book The Great Heresies:
> 
> "It has always seemed to me possible, and even probable, that there 
> would be a resurrection of Islam and that our sons or our grandsons 
> would see the renewal of that tremendous struggle between the 
> Christian culture and what has been for more than a thousand years 
> its greatest opponent....  The future always comes as a surprise 
but 
> political wisdom consists in attempting at least some partial 
> judgment of what that surprise may be.  And for my part I cannot 
but 
> believe that a main unexpected thing of the future is the return of 
> Islam.  Since religion is at the root of all political movements 
and 
> changes and since we have here a very great religion physically 
> paralysed but morally intensely alive, we are in the presence of an 
> unstable equilibrium which cannot remain permanently unstable....
> 
>   - CMC  (be very afraid)




From sue4419 at yahoo.com  Thu Dec 18 15:36:21 2003
From: sue4419 at yahoo.com (Sue4419)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 15:36:21 -0000
Subject: Hogwarts-ish school in the US?
Message-ID: <brshhl+gm4m@eGroups.com>

If this has been discussed before, sorry....

I was just wondering if anyone had any thoughts about if there were a 
school for Witchcraft and Wizardry in the U.S., where would it be 
located (city, state) and what would it be called?

My vote for location would be Salem, Mass.

Thanks!





From joym999 at aol.com  Thu Dec 18 18:07:47 2003
From: joym999 at aol.com (joywitch_m_curmudgeon)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 18:07:47 -0000
Subject: More unbelievability
In-Reply-To: <brqsfd+ktig@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <brsqdj+dkdn@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, dfrankiswork at n... wrote:
> I was travelling on the tube today, and noticed one of the adverts 
> was offering help for men with erection problems.
> 
> About halfway down, it said something like (I can't quite remember 
> verbatim) 'Men with erection problems need not give up hope as 
there 
> are a number of oral treatments available.'

Hee hee!  What's unusual about this ad, from an advertising POV, is 
that it seems to be advertising something that they probably don't 
actually sell themselves, unless the laws in Britian are a lot more 
lax than I thought.

--JMC 




From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk  Thu Dec 18 18:53:45 2003
From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 18:53:45 -0000
Subject: Hogwarts-ish school in the US?
In-Reply-To: <brshhl+gm4m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <brst3p+l3bo@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Sue4419" <sue4419 at y...> 
wrote:
> If this has been discussed before, sorry....
> 
> I was just wondering if anyone had any thoughts about if there 
were a 
> school for Witchcraft and Wizardry in the U.S., where would it be 
> located (city, state) and what would it be called?
> 
> My vote for location would be Salem, Mass.
> 
> Thanks!

This so often is ficced (with variable results) that's it almost 
seems like canon.  

Salem is a sitting duck for this really.  I personally like it 
(unless the fic is just rubbish...)

June




From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk  Thu Dec 18 18:55:55 2003
From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 18:55:55 -0000
Subject: More unbelievability
In-Reply-To: <brsqdj+dkdn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <brst7r+u0rj@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "joywitch_m_curmudgeon" 
<joym999 at a...> wrote:
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, dfrankiswork at n... wrote:
> > I was travelling on the tube today, and noticed one of the 
adverts 
> > was offering help for men with erection problems.
> > 
> > About halfway down, it said something like (I can't quite 
remember 
> > verbatim) 'Men with erection problems need not give up hope as 
> there 
> > are a number of oral treatments available.'
> 
> Hee hee!  What's unusual about this ad, from an advertising POV, 
is 
> that it seems to be advertising something that they probably don't 
> actually sell themselves, unless the laws in Britian are a lot 
more 
> lax than I thought.

Viagra (and I suspect you are talking about that) is not "on-sale" 
as such though I expect you can buy it if you know where.  

There are a lot of purchasable products marketed and often made to 
look like viagra so that the unsuspecting (and desperate) buy them 
thinking they will work the same.  A fool and his money...

June
> 
> --JMC




From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Thu Dec 18 19:18:20 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 19:18:20 -0000
Subject: Hogwarts-ish school in the US?
In-Reply-To: <brshhl+gm4m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <brsuhs+r13a@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Sue4419" <sue4419 at y...> wrote:
> If this has been discussed before, sorry....
> 
> I was just wondering if anyone had any thoughts about if there were a 
> school for Witchcraft and Wizardry in the U.S., where would it be 
> located (city, state) and what would it be called?
> 
> My vote for location would be Salem, Mass.
> 
> Thanks!


bboy_mn:

I guess you could send an owl to the 'Salem Witches Institute' (GOF -
World Cup) and ask if they have a school. Given a population of about
5 times that of Britain, I would guess there would be schools. Also, a
substantial number of North Americans are of European descent.

The other location would have to be New Orleans. There are magic shops
all over that city, real magic as in VooDoo. You can buy charms,
amulets, instructions on how to curse people, VooDoo pin cushion
dolls, could probably even buy a curse, charms, spells, etc...; all
dispursed about the various common muggle neighborhoods. With Magic
that flagrantly displayed, there certainly must be a school in the
neighborhood. Probably located in some remote area of the bayou.

And just so the Native Americans aren't left out, I suspect Shaman
schools in the Black Hill, sacred ground, of South Dakota. Also,
alternate Shaman school in the Arizona & New Mexico area.

For some odd reason, I have this idea that there is a Magic School in
San Francisco, although I have no idea why.

And I'm undecided whether I want there to be a magic school in Texas. 

...or not.

bboy_mn





From cwood at tattersallpub.com  Thu Dec 18 20:16:29 2003
From: cwood at tattersallpub.com (mstattersall)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 20:16:29 -0000
Subject: Hogwarts-ish school in the US?
In-Reply-To: <brsuhs+r13a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <brt1ut+ifg6@eGroups.com>

> And I'm undecided whether I want there to be a magic school in 
Texas ...or not. 
> bboy_mn

There already is.
http://www.texasquidditch.com/TMAU.html







From foxmoth at qnet.com  Thu Dec 18 20:23:51 2003
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 20:23:51 -0000
Subject: Hogwarts-ish school in the US?
In-Reply-To: <brsuhs+r13a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <brt2cn+ald8@eGroups.com>

Steve Bboy:


> For some odd reason, I have this idea that there is a Magic 
>School in San Francisco, although I have no idea why.

Marin County, north of San Francisco, is much weirder than SF 
itself. And of course in Los Angeles wizarding secrecy is not 
observed, since anything odd is presumed (by Muggles)  to be 
movie related.

Pippin




From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk  Thu Dec 18 21:37:07 2003
From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 21:37:07 -0000
Subject: Hogwarts-ish school in the US?
In-Reply-To: <brt2cn+ald8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <brt6m3+945d@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at q...> 
wrote:
> Steve Bboy:
> 
> 
> > For some odd reason, I have this idea that there is a Magic 
> >School in San Francisco, although I have no idea why.
> 
Pippin wrote:
> And of course in Los Angeles wizarding secrecy is not 
> observed, since anything odd is presumed (by Muggles)  to be 
> movie related.

Pip!Squeak adds:

Though rumour has it that the Hogwarts extension college at 
Sunnydale, California recently relocated rather hurriedly...

Pip




From dudemom_2000 at yahoo.com  Thu Dec 18 22:51:27 2003
From: dudemom_2000 at yahoo.com (dudemom_2000)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 22:51:27 -0000
Subject: Highlights of ROTK -- SPOILERS HERE! (WAS Re: ROTK - First Impressions
In-Reply-To: <brrd37+3aah@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <brtb1f+ll4e@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, thomasmwall at y... wrote:
> 
> June:
> One watching will not be enough for me.  In fact, I can see me 
going 
> 4 or 5 times at least just to catch every visual and nuance.
> 
> Tom:
> Yep, I'm going to see it again on Friday! ;-)
> 
> 
> June:
> Wise critics have called it a fantasy masterpiece.  I don't 
disagree 
> either, but just take out the qualifying adjective.  It is a 
> masterpiece, pure and simple.  
> 
> Tom:
> Hear, hear!
> 
> 
> June:
> The battle scenes were even better than Two Towers. Pelennor Fields
> is just awesome. The special effects raise the bar yet again.
> 
> <<Big Snip>>

> Anyhoo, I'm sure there's more, but I gotta split.
> 
> -Tom

*****\(@@)/*****

I am going to see it on Friday - Thanks for the comments! I am soooo 
looking forward to seeing the movie. I have read the books over and 
over since the 70s and this trilogy has been everything I imagined 
it would be. I cried at the end of the books and I plan to bring 
lots of Kleenex for the movie!


*****\(@@)/*****

Dudemom_2000




From gbannister10 at aol.com  Fri Dec 19 00:00:03 2003
From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 00:00:03 -0000
Subject: Highlights of ROTK -- SPOILERS HERE! (WAS Re: ROTK - First Impressions
In-Reply-To: <brtb1f+ll4e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <brtf23+imnh@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "dudemom_2000" 
<dudemom_2000 at y...> wrote:
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, thomasmwall at y... wrote:
> > 
> > June:
> > One watching will not be enough for me.  In fact, I can see me 
> going 
> > 4 or 5 times at least just to catch every visual and nuance.
> > 
> > Tom:
> > Yep, I'm going to see it again on Friday! ;-)

Geoff:
I saw TTT three times, partly bacause I had to get my head round one 
or two changes to the story line - Aragorn going over the cliff, 
Elves at Helm's Deep etc. Having seen ROTK on its opening night here 
in the UK yesterday, I shall have to see it three times I think just 
to digest how Peter Jackson has shifted up another gear....

Like Christopher Lee, I have read LOTR a lot - probably 25-30 times
since I first discovered it as a teenager about 1956.

One of the things which annoyed me about the book (annoyed? Is that 
rumbling sound JRRT turning in his grave?) was that in Volumes 2 and 
3, the story line of Sam/Frodo/Gollum was separated from the others. 
This sometimes made their story rather heavy going and also I found 
it difficult to match up contemporaneous events. Jackson has done a 
marvellous job of intercutting the story threads. The final scenes, 
meshing the Battle of the Black Gate with Frodo and Sam approaching 
the Sammath Naur, are brilliant put together.

I said for years that I would never go to a film of the Rings after 
the Bakshi shambles. I publicly eat my words. ROTK is the best of the 
three, the first one I have felt totally at one with at first viewing.







From elrond at paradise.net.nz  Fri Dec 19 02:30:00 2003
From: elrond at paradise.net.nz (Michael Chance)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 15:30:00 +1300
Subject: Site Updates
Message-ID: <005e01c3c5d8$0871f640$13454fcb@locxvcym>

Hi :) I've just added what will properly the last story to "the Master and
the Wolf" archive - http://chance.slashcity.net/masterandthewolf/ - until
I've gotten home early January. It's Juxian Tang, 2nd story called
"Forbidden Thought", (her first story for the Snape/Lupin Fest was "Howdy").

And I've also been adjusting the Hotlink Protection on my main page -
http://chance.slashcity.net/ - so hopefully people will be having fewer
problems doing loading the music videos I have archived there. Unfortunately
I'm going to have to leave the protection turned on permanently, as the
videos have been listed separately in a multi-media search engine that
appears to be surprisingly popular, so I can't afford to leave them
unprotected despite the fact that a few people will have problems
downloading them.

Michael
--
"The Dancing Skeleton" - http://chance.slashcity.net/hope/
- my personal page based on the quote "If you can't get rid of the skeleton
in your closet, you'd best teach it to dance." - George Bernard Shaw




From mckosvc at bmts.com  Fri Dec 19 02:50:32 2003
From: mckosvc at bmts.com (ovc88guelph)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 02:50:32 -0000
Subject: FF: Unrestricted Travel Between UK and Canada??
In-Reply-To: <brru6o+nult@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <brtp1o+6dk8@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Doriane" <delwynmarch at y...> 
wrote:
> Saitaina wrote:
> 
> > Which is odd as we can hop the Mexican/US
> > boarder on a whim with no problem.    I did
> > it all the time when I was in California
> > growing up.
> 
> My Canadian friends could do that too. They just needed some kind 
of 
> ID if I remember well. But for me, or whoever wasn't either 
American 
> or Canadian, we had to have our passports with us. I once traveled 
> with a bunch of Canadians, our driver was Australian, and for sure 
> both she and I got checked thoroughly at the border.
> 
> Del

Now me. We used to be able to cross into the US by just showing a 
driver's licence, which at that time did not even have a photo! Now 
one needs either (a) a passport (b) a Canadian birth certificate and 
1 piece of photo id (usually a driver's licence) or (c) two pieces 
of photo id. This put me in a bit of a bind a year ago when I 
decided at the last minute to attend a conference in Vegas. My 
passport had expired, and the only piece of photo id I had was my 
DL. Unfortunately, even though I'm a full fledged sixth generation 
Canadian, I was born in Montreal in the sixties. For some reason, 
the provincial government didn't issue Canadian birth certificates 
back then. So my travel agent suggested I obtain another piece of 
photo id, known as an "age of majority" card. This card can be 
quickly obtained by going to a local liquor store. It's purpose is 
to prove that you are old enough to be allowed to buy liquor. So 
there I was, every day of 40 years old, at the local beer store, 
asking the clerk for a photo id to prove I was over 18! You should 
have seen the look of consternation on the poor woman's face as she 
tried to tactfully explain that she didn't think I would need an age 
of majority card to get service at the counter!

Gave me a laugh!  MMcK.




From Mhochberg at aol.com  Fri Dec 19 03:10:30 2003
From: Mhochberg at aol.com (Mhochberg at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 22:10:30 EST
Subject: Hogwarts-ish school in the US?
Message-ID: <11d.29641a49.2d13c626@aol.com>

In a message dated 12/18/2003 12:09:08 PM Pacific Standard Time, 
HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com writes:
Hogwarts-ish school in the US?

The American Southwest School for Witchcraft and Wizardry is reached via 
Tucson, Arizona. The exact location, like all such schools, is a secret.

---Professor Computadora


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com  Fri Dec 19 04:27:04 2003
From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (IggyMcSnurd)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 22:27:04 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Hogwarts-ish school in the US?
In-Reply-To: <11d.29641a49.2d13c626@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000001c3c5e8$5ee498b0$1de579a5@Einstein>

> In a message dated 12/18/2003 12:09:08 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com writes:
> Hogwarts-ish school in the US?
> 
> The American Southwest School for Witchcraft and Wizardry is reached
via
> Tucson, Arizona. The exact location, like all such schools, is a
secret.
> 
> ---Professor Computadora
> 


There *is* a school near San Francisco... it's near where I grew up in
Santa Cruz.  It's a wonderful place, surrounded by redwoods and lush
fields, and is where I spent much of my time while some of my friends
and I studied.

I can't reveal the exact location, however, since we're sworn to secrecy
on the location. (I do like to stop by on occasion when I'm visiting
back home, of course...)


Iggy McSnurd







From dradamsapple at yahoo.com  Fri Dec 19 06:20:54 2003
From: dradamsapple at yahoo.com (dradamsapple)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 06:20:54 -0000
Subject: PoA in IMAX
Message-ID: <bru5c6+tm8v@eGroups.com>

Wahoo!
Just read this on "The Leaky Cauldron"; PoA will also be released in
Imax theatres in June.

go here:  http://comingsoon.net/news.php?id=2762

Can you imagine what that will be like?  :P
When can we start the countdown ?

Anna . . .




From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Fri Dec 19 07:36:40 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 07:36:40 -0000
Subject: Hogwarts-ish school in the US?
In-Reply-To: <11d.29641a49.2d13c626@aol.com>
Message-ID: <bru9q8+7unn@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Mhochberg at a... wrote:
> In a message dated 12/18/2003 12:09:08 PM Pacific Standard Time, 
> HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com writes:
> Hogwarts-ish school in the US?


> 
> The American Southwest School for Witchcraft and Wizardry is reached 
> via Tucson, Arizona. The exact location, like all such schools, is a 
> secret.
> 
> ---Professor Computadora

bboy_mn:

Sorry, but I still say that any school in the north central Great
Plains OR the Southwest is going to be a Shaman-type school of magic. 

Something like the 'Turtle Island School of Shamanism and Medicine' or
'The Carlos Castaneda Circle of Tensegrity and Shamanism'.

Of course, given the diversity of the USA, there could be a school
formed by those with ancestral European heritage. Another side note:
there is a type of ancient Celtic magic that is referred to as Shamanism.

I will also note that there really IS a 'Society of Spiritwalkers'
that certifies Shaman in the USA; as well as many REAL Shaman schools.

As a side note: The School of Magic in New Orleans would teach a blend
of European (primarily French style), American Indian (primarily South
American), and (predominantly) African  magic. 

But, of course, this is all in fun, so you can have any school of
magic you desire.

Funny thing is, if you search Google for 'Shaman School' or 'Magic
School', you will find that there really are a lot of them in the USA
and the rest of the world. 

Does life imitate art, or does art imitate life?

You be the judge.

bboy_mn





From phoenix_suzaku18 at yahoo.com  Fri Dec 19 11:22:27 2003
From: phoenix_suzaku18 at yahoo.com (phoenix_suzaku18)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 11:22:27 -0000
Subject: I just can't believe this...
In-Reply-To: <148.1ebd03df.2d0f4735@aol.com>
Message-ID: <brun1j+iluo@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, IAmLordCassandra at a... wrote:
> http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/hpmain.html 
> 
> *shakes head*  
>  
>

Me:
I have my two knuts to add to this nonsense... 

The people who wrote this review did so to prevent others from 
reading the 'blasphemous' HP books. So, they don't want you to read 
HP or else, with all certainty, you will worship the devil.

What about the hours upon hours of research they had to do on this 
matter? Wouldn't they have to study satanic symbolism thoroughly in 
order to pick up on all the subtleties?

And if they are so convinced that whatever someone reads they will 
believe as the truth, then they themselves must be satanists by now. 
Why should we believe them? Hypocrites are funny. @_@

-Suzaku the (apparently blasphemous) Phoenix





From jwcpgh at yahoo.com  Fri Dec 19 14:09:55 2003
From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 14:09:55 -0000
Subject: Mirabile Dictu! An Actor Who Understands What He's Portraying!
In-Reply-To: <brr4lt+tjmm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <brv0rj+u03r@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, coriolan at w... wrote:
> As Viggo Mortensen preaches Peace, Siblinghood, and Other Things 
> Bright and Beautiful, a different theme is invoked [snips here] 
[by] Hilaire Belloc in his 1938 book The Great Heresies:
> 
> "It has always seemed to me possible, and even probable, that 
there would be a resurrection of Islam and that our sons or our 
grandsons would see the renewal of that tremendous struggle between 
the Christian culture and what has been for more than a thousand 
years its greatest opponent....  

Laura:

As long as Christianity and Islam see each other as opponents, they 
both pose a mortal danger to the entire world.  Viggo is absolutely 
right.  Peace is worth struggling for, and there's room in this 
world for all of us.  It's prefectly absurd to imagine that there's 
only one way to find the infinite God, who has created us in our 
amazing diversity.  

I refuse to be afraid of Islam.  I know too many good, kind, 
admirable Muslims for that.  I'm not happy with some of its 
practitioners, but I'm not happy with a good number of my fellow 
Jews either.  The fact that practitioners choose to corrupt a good 
doctrine doesn't make the doctrine corrupt.  We need to encourage 
moderate Muslims to come forward and retake their religion, not 
treat Islam like the coming of the Black Death.  Respect doesn't 
always create respect, but we all know what hatred creates.




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Fri Dec 19 15:55:00 2003
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 15:55:00 -0000
Subject: Mirabile Dictu! An Actor Who Understands What He's Portraying!
In-Reply-To: <brr4lt+tjmm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <brv70k+itep@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, coriolan at w... 
wrote:
>> As Viggo Mortensen preaches Peace, Siblinghood, and Other 
Things  Bright and Beautiful, a different theme is invoked in this 
interview with John Rhys-Davies, Gimli in LOTR:>>

who said: 

"What is unconscionable is that too many of your fellow 
journalists do not understand how precarious Western 
civilization is and what a joy it is. ... From it, we get the sort of 
intellectual tolerance that allows me to propound something that 
may be completely alien to you around this table...."
 
http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/beard200312170849.a
s

CMC:
>> The prophecy made by Rhys-Davies' father in 1955 was 
earlier issued  by Hilaire Belloc in his 1938 book The Great 
Heresies:
<snip> 
"our sons or our grandsons  would see the renewal of that 
tremendous struggle between the  Christian culture and what 
has been for more than a thousand years  its greatest 
opponent....  "<<


It's awfully tempting to project our present situation into the past. 
However,   for the most part of that thousand year struggle
that Belloc refers to, if you had wanted to champion "intellectual 
tolerance ", IMO,  you would have had to root for the Muslims. 
How ironic is that?

Pippin
who thinks there are enough causes for conflict in the present 
day without borrowing them from the past.





From stix4141 at hotmail.com  Fri Dec 19 18:39:49 2003
From: stix4141 at hotmail.com (stickbook41)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 18:39:49 -0000
Subject: HPfGU members in Washington DC
Message-ID: <brvgll+pkbe@eGroups.com>

Hi everybody!

I work in Washington DC, and I went out to lunch in a restaurant close to my 
office.  Inside one of the bathroom stalls was written (among other things) the 
following:

Sirius + Remus
Their love is so cannon [sic]

While I don't agree with the philosophy, I was floored to see that message in 
such a random place!  If any members have been to Sign of the Whale on M 
St, drop me a line!

Cheers!

stickbook




From rredordead at aol.com  Fri Dec 19 21:12:48 2003
From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 21:12:48 -0000
Subject: Hogwarts-ish school in the US?
In-Reply-To: <brshhl+gm4m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <brvpkg+7mvp@eGroups.com>

> I was just wondering if anyone had any thoughts about if there were 
a school for Witchcraft and Wizardry in the U.S., where would it be 
> located (city, state) and what would it be called?
> My vote for location would be Salem, Mass.

Mandy here:
I think with America's desire to be so politically correct there 
would have to be a different school for every sub group in the 
country.  
So I came up with these:

New Age High School of Wiccan Magic ? Berkley CA

The New England Academy of Witchcraft and Wizardry - Salem, Mass.

Vodoun Academy for African American Studies - Washington, DC

The Kabbalah Institute - Brooklyn, NY

Native American College of Spirituality - Ontario, Canada

Odin Academy of Norse Magic - Montana



Apologies those I left out. 

Mandy   ;-)








From northbysouthwest50 at hotmail.com  Fri Dec 19 21:48:06 2003
From: northbysouthwest50 at hotmail.com (northbysouthwest50)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 21:48:06 -0000
Subject: PoA in IMAX
In-Reply-To: <bru5c6+tm8v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <brvrmm+sf66@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "dradamsapple" 
<dradamsapple at y...> wrote:
> Wahoo!
> Just read this on "The Leaky Cauldron"; PoA will also be released in
> Imax theatres in June.
> 
> go here:  http://comingsoon.net/news.php?id=2762
> 
> Can you imagine what that will be like?  :P
> When can we start the countdown ?

That is interesting.  Is that the first major motion picture ever to 
be released in IMAX theatres at the same time it is released to 
smaller theatres?

North





From heidilist at tandys.org  Fri Dec 19 23:03:16 2003
From: heidilist at tandys.org (Heidi Tandy)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 15:03:16 -0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: PoA in IMAX
Message-ID: <1071875238.23CC13F4@s29.dngr.org>


> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "dradamsapple"
> <dradamsapple at y...> wrote:
>>  Wahoo!
>>  Just read this on "The Leaky Cauldron"; PoA will also be released in
>>  Imax theatres in June.
>>
>>  go here:  http://comingsoon.net/news.php?id=2762
>>
>>  Can you imagine what that will be like?  :P
>>  When can we start the countdown ?
On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 5:42pm, northbysouthwest50 wrote:

>
> That is interesting.  Is that the first major motion picture ever to
> be released in IMAX theatres at the same time it is released to
> smaller theatres?

No, both Matrix Reloaded (or revolutions? I forget) and LOTR:ROTK have 
had simultaneous releases, and Attack of the Clowns, I mean Clones, was 
about a month behind on IMAX. Also, Beauty & the Beast's rerelease with 
the new song, human again, was on imax, I think instead of regular 
theaters.

But it's still really cool.

A group of us who want to see PoA in NYC on the 4th and/or 5th have a 
livejournal at http://www.livejournal.com/~poa_nyc for planning, etc. 
We're not sure about schedule yet, but it's going to be great!

Heidi

Http://www.fictionalley.org



From dudemom_2000 at yahoo.com  Fri Dec 19 23:55:35 2003
From: dudemom_2000 at yahoo.com (dudemom_2000)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 23:55:35 -0000
Subject: Highlights of ROTK -- SPOILERS HERE! (WAS Re: ROTK - First Impressions
In-Reply-To: <brtf23+imnh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <bs035n+ar34@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" 
<gbannister10 at a...> wrote:
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "dudemom_2000" 
> <dudemom_2000 at y...> wrote:
> > --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, thomasmwall at y... wrote:
> > > 
> > > June:
> > > One watching will not be enough for me.  In fact, I can see me 
> > going 
> > > 4 or 5 times at least just to catch every visual and nuance.
> > > 
> > > Tom:
> > > Yep, I'm going to see it again on Friday! ;-)
> 
> Geoff:
<<Snip>>
 I said for years that I would never go to a film of the Rings after 
> the Bakshi shambles. I publicly eat my words. ROTK is the best of 
the 
> three, the first one I have felt totally at one with at first 
viewing.

*****\(@@)/*****

I just got back from seeing ROTK and WOW! What really got to me was 
seeing the sequence of signal fires being lit to alert Rohan - what 
an incredible panorama! And the battles - they pretty much leave you 
speechless. (It was nice to finally see Vigo cleaned up and OHHH 
that Orlando Bloom!)I am ready to put in my order for the extended 
edition DVD! This is a definite must see film!

Dudemom_2000

*****\(@@)/*****




From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk  Sat Dec 20 00:07:45 2003
From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak)
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 00:07:45 -0000
Subject: ADMIN: An update on the threat to our groups
Message-ID: <bs03sh+3mlu@eGroups.com>


An update on our previous ADMIN:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/20409

We recently learned that two tables in the Database section of the
main list, "Birthdays" and "Recommended Reading" were deleted. We
have since managed to restore them from back-up copies. We have
reason to believe they were deleted by the disgruntled party or 
parties who threatened the HPfGU community. Sad and petty? 
Absolutely.

In order for us to protect the other databases, we have had to 
change the group settings. This means that the Database and the 
Files sections can't be open to members uploads. This has some 
implications for our members, as our Files section includes several 
sections (humour, essays) that members have always been able to add 
to themselves. [We've managed to tweak the database section; members 
can still add data to the databases.]

We would welcome your thoughts on how we can re-establish a files
section that allows member input without leaving files vulnerable to
the same kind of deletion that happened to our database section.
Please feel free to share your views on the Feedback list, or send 
an e-mail to the owner address.

Lastly, if your birthday is in the birthday database, please double-
check your entry.  We have observed some glitches in the restored 
version of the Recommended Reading database (which sometimes occur 
when databases are imported) and we wouldn't want to get anyone's 
birthday wrong. Of course, if your birthday isn't in the Birthday 
Database, feel free to add it in. [grin]

We do have some good news: we mentioned in a previous ADMIN that one
of our administrative lists had been deleted; fortunately, Yahoo
responded to our messages about this, and the admin list *was*
restored.

Pippy Elf
For the List Administration team





From neonsister at ameritech.net  Sat Dec 20 00:07:17 2003
From: neonsister at ameritech.net (neonsister at ameritech.net)
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 00:07:17 -0000
Subject: Ghost?
Message-ID: <bs03rl+tvj9@eGroups.com>

I think this guy looks like he could be a wizard! 

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/europe/12/19/hampton.ghost.ap/index.html

Cool photo, whether or not it's an authentic ghost.

Tracy

PS - Happy Hanukah to those on the list who observe it!






From jeopardy18 at attbi.com  Sat Dec 20 04:09:29 2003
From: jeopardy18 at attbi.com (seanmulligan2000)
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 04:09:29 -0000
Subject: What does everyone think of the new POA trailer?
Message-ID: <bs0i1p+sm94@eGroups.com>

I thought it was really great and I loved the music. 




From Mhochberg at aol.com  Sat Dec 20 07:41:41 2003
From: Mhochberg at aol.com (Mhochberg at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 02:41:41 EST
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Digest Number 1343
Message-ID: <19e.1e56f0bb.2d155735@aol.com>

In a message dated 12/19/2003 11:51:56 AM Pacific Standard Time, 
HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com writes:
Sorry, but I still say that any school in the north central Great
Plains OR the Southwest is going to be a Shaman-type school of magic. 
There are several such schools, including one in the Tucson area as well as a 
much smaller school near Flagstaff. Both schools, however, are much older the 
school that I teach at (American Southwest School of Witchcraft and 
Wizardry). 

ASSWW is fairly new, just over 80 years. Our techniques and tools are very 
different from traditional shamanism and from the more common European magics. 

One of my graduate students has been doing research into combining magics, 
though progress has been very slow. Mixing 1930 style mechanical magic with 
traditional shamanism is very risky. 

---Professor Computadora


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From gbannister10 at aol.com  Sat Dec 20 09:17:59 2003
From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 09:17:59 -0000
Subject: Highlights of ROTK -- SPOILERS HERE! (WAS Re: ROTK - First Impressions
In-Reply-To: <bs035n+ar34@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <bs1447+5ftl@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "dudemom_2000" 
<dudemom_2000 at y...> wrote:


Dudemom: 
> I just got back from seeing ROTK and WOW! What really got to me was 
> seeing the sequence of signal fires being lit to alert Rohan - what 
> an incredible panorama! And the battles - they pretty much leave 
you 
> speechless. (It was nice to finally see Vigo cleaned up and OHHH 
> that Orlando Bloom!)I am ready to put in my order for the extended 
> edition DVD! This is a definite must see film!
> 

Geoff:
The signal fires - yes. Comparable with that superb opening shot in 
TTT coming over the mountain ridge.

What about the shot when Gandalf and Pippin enter Minas Tirith and 
the camera tracks them from above climbing the various circuits of 
the city.....




From dudemom_2000 at yahoo.com  Sat Dec 20 17:23:20 2003
From: dudemom_2000 at yahoo.com (dudemom_2000)
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 17:23:20 -0000
Subject: Highlights of ROTK -- SPOILERS HERE! (WAS Re: ROTK - First Impressions
In-Reply-To: <bs1447+5ftl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <bs20i8+e863@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" 
<gbannister10 at a...> wrote:
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "dudemom_2000" 
> <dudemom_2000 at y...> wrote:
> 
> 
> Dudemom: 
> > I just got back from seeing ROTK and WOW! What really got to me 
was 
> > seeing the sequence of signal fires being lit to alert Rohan - 
what 
> > an incredible panorama! And the battles - they pretty much leave 
> you 
> > speechless. (It was nice to finally see Vigo cleaned up and OHHH 
> > that Orlando Bloom!)I am ready to put in my order for the 
extended 
> > edition DVD! This is a definite must see film!
> > 
> 
> Geoff:
> The signal fires - yes. Comparable with that superb opening shot 
in 
> TTT coming over the mountain ridge.
> 
> What about the shot when Gandalf and Pippin enter Minas Tirith and 
> the camera tracks them from above climbing the various circuits of 
> the city.....

*****\(@@)/*****
Oh yes! There were so many scenes to pick from - I forgot about how 
that one took my breath away too! This is definitely one film I need 
to watch several times to take in everything. 

My only disappointment was that I heard the POA trailer was going to 
be attached to the film and it wasn't at least not at the theater I 
went to....

Dudemom_2000

*****\(@@)/***** 




From gbannister10 at aol.com  Sat Dec 20 17:39:47 2003
From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 17:39:47 -0000
Subject: Highlights of ROTK -- SPOILERS HERE! (WAS Re: ROTK - First Impressions
In-Reply-To: <bs20i8+e863@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <bs21h3+5vi7@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "dudemom_2000" 
<dudemom_2000 at y...> wrote:

Dudemom:
> Oh yes! There were so many scenes to pick from - I forgot about how 
> that one took my breath away too! This is definitely one film I 
need 
> to watch several times to take in everything. 
> 
> My only disappointment was that I heard the POA trailer was going 
to 
> be attached to the film and it wasn't at least not at the theater I 
> went to....

Geoff:
It seems to have been attached at a lot of UK cinemas. I saw it in 
Taunton in Somerset, my two sons saw it together in Harrow in north-
west London and I know of a number of friends who also saw it.

It's interesting. I must not pre-judge but I'm not sure I like the 
uniform-less Hogwarts and the choir left me a bit cold. But, all will 
be revealed in June....




From andie at knownet.net  Sat Dec 20 20:02:10 2003
From: andie at knownet.net (grindieloe)
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 20:02:10 -0000
Subject: Sword of Gryffindor
Message-ID: <bs29s2+4ivq@eGroups.com>

I've got a question for everyone. Several weeks ago (I'm not sure 
exactly when), in a search for more cool Harry websites and items to 
buy, I came across a site that was devoted to swords - actual 
swords.  They had an official "Sword of Gryffindor."  It looked 
EXACTLY like the one in CoS.  It had the rubies, and even Godric 
Gryffindor carved into the steel.  I remember it being around $80 or 
so, and the disclaimer that it was a real sword and not a toy. 

Recently, I wanted to check out this sword again, but I cannot seem 
to find it!  I know I saw it!  I did a search and came up empty-
handed.  There were a few on ebay, but those aren't the ones.  

Has anyone else come across this sword?  Can you point me the way 
back?

Andrea




From heidilist at tandys.org  Sat Dec 20 21:45:15 2003
From: heidilist at tandys.org (Heidi Tandy)
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 13:45:15 -0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Sword of Gryffindor
Message-ID: <1071956768.E79D2AF@w5.dngr.org>

Sounds like someone may've been infringing on WB's trademark, and thus 
shut down by WB for trademark infringement because of selling an 
infringing product.

You can find a plastic replica made by, iirc, mattel - it doesn't look 
half bad, although the nouses are silly - try shopping.yahoo.com.

Heidi


On Sat, 20 Dec 2003 3:02pm, grindieloe wrote:
> I've got a question for everyone. Several weeks ago (I'm not sure
> exactly when), in a search for more cool Harry websites and items to
> buy, I came across a site that was devoted to swords - actual
> swords.  They had an official "Sword of Gryffindor."  It looked
> EXACTLY like the one in CoS.  It had the rubies, and even Godric
> Gryffindor carved into the steel.  I remember it being around $80 or
> so, and the disclaimer that it was a real sword and not a toy.
>
> Recently, I wanted to check out this sword again, but I cannot seem
> to find it!  I know I saw it!  I did a search and came up empty-
> handed.  There were a few on ebay, but those aren't the ones.
>
> Has anyone else come across this sword?  Can you point me the way
> back?
>
> Andrea
>
>
> ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________
>
> Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the group's Admin 
> Files!
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/
>
> Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from 
> posts to which you're replying!
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
>  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>  HPFGU-OTChatter-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
>  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



From przepla at ipartner.com.pl  Sat Dec 20 22:03:31 2003
From: przepla at ipartner.com.pl (Przemyslaw Plaskowicki)
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 23:03:31 +0100
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Apostrophising over Yahoo!
In-Reply-To: <brqod2+m2va@eGroups.com>
References: <brqod2+m2va@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3FE4C733.3010605@ipartner.com.pl>

On 2003-12-18 00:21, thomasmwall at yahoo.com wrote:

>June wrote:
>I'm sure glad to see these [apostrophe] posts, I was worried it was 
>just me - even on two different computers, and too paranoid to ask 
>if anyone else had it.
>
>pathetic really./END QUOTE
>
>Tom, laughing spasmodically, falls out of his chair and onto the 
>floor.
>
>Tom:
>June! That's *exactly* what I was thinking! I'm glad that you caught 
>it first, and that I'm not alone. 
>
>Could a techno-master [i.e. not me] explain what the heck that stuff 
>means and why it would happen? ;-)
>  
>
The ' is a magic word used in html language, in which web pages and 
sometimes e-mails are written, to denote an apostrophe since apostrophe 
itself is magic in html. Another example is & for an ampersand. If 
those appeared in the yahoo pages, Yahoo hosed something with their 
normal text to html conversions. If those appeared in plain text (i.e. 
not html) e-mails send to you, Yahoo hosed their html to plain text 
conversion. If those appeared in both e-mails and Yahoo pages, sender of 
the message hosed using misconfigured email client or web browser.

Regards,


-- 
Przemyslaw 'Pshemekan' Plaskowicki
Force without wisdom falls of its own weight. (Horace, Odes)




From fc26det at aol.com  Sat Dec 20 22:12:35 2003
From: fc26det at aol.com (Potterfanme)
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 22:12:35 -0000
Subject: Sword of Gryffindor
In-Reply-To: <bs29s2+4ivq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <bs2hgj+ktg4@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "grindieloe" <andie at k...> 
wrote:
> I've got a question for everyone. Several weeks ago (I'm not sure 
> exactly when), in a search for more cool Harry websites and items 
to 
> buy, I came across a site that was devoted to swords - actual 
> swords.  They had an official "Sword of Gryffindor."  It looked 
> EXACTLY like the one in CoS.  It had the rubies, and even Godric 
> Gryffindor carved into the steel.  I remember it being around $80 
or 
> so, and the disclaimer that it was a real sword and not a toy. 
> 
> Recently, I wanted to check out this sword again, but I cannot seem 
> to find it!  I know I saw it!  I did a search and came up empty-
> handed.  There were a few on ebay, but those aren't the ones.  
> 
> Has anyone else come across this sword?  Can you point me the way 
> back?
> 
> Andrea

Yippee!! I think I may have found it for you.  Try :
www.myskyra.net/swords-movereps.shtml
They say they are *real swords*
Good luck, 
Susan





From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk  Sun Dec 21 00:15:31 2003
From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 00:15:31 -0000
Subject: Highlights of ROTK -- SPOILERS HERE! (WAS Re: ROTK - First Impressions
In-Reply-To: <brtf23+imnh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <bs2on3+9vs@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" 
<gbannister10 at a...> wrote:
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "dudemom_2000" 
> <dudemom_2000 at y...> wrote:
> > --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, thomasmwall at y... wrote:
> > > 
> I said for years that I would never go to a film of the Rings 
after 
> the Bakshi shambles. I publicly eat my words. ROTK is the best of 
the 
> three, the first one I have felt totally at one with at first 
viewing.

belatedly- I could not agree more with this.  I will never forget 
how angry that film made me.  And how happy this one made me.

June

Useless nerd factoid about ROTK - no. 999 - Grond is the battering 
ram and it's named after the Mace of Morgoth - Sauron's former boss 
and much more evil.






From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Dec 21 00:55:16 2003
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 00:55:16 -0000
Subject: More unbelievability
In-Reply-To: <brst7r+u0rj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <bs2r1k+aj4u@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, dfrankiswork at n... wrote:
> I was travelling on the tube today, and noticed one of the adverts 
> was offering help for men with erection problems.
> About halfway down, it said something like (I can't quite remember 
> verbatim) 'Men with erection problems need not give up hope as 
> there are a number of oral treatments available.'

> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "joywitch_m_curmudgeon" 
<joym999 at a...> replied:
> Hee hee!  What's unusual about this ad, from an advertising POV, is 
> that it seems to be advertising something that they probably don't 
> actually sell themselves, unless the laws in Britian are a lot more 
> lax than I thought.
> 
--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, <june.diamanti at b...> replied:
> Viagra (and I suspect you are talking about that) is not "on-sale" 
> as such though I expect you can buy it if you know where.  

I think both David and Joywitch were speaking of oral sex (fellatio),
which is sold by prostitutes, and prostitution is illegal many places.




From rvotaw at i-55.com  Sun Dec 21 14:38:47 2003
From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 08:38:47 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Sword of Gryffindor
References: <bs29s2+4ivq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <014801c3c7d0$25421a80$df9ecdd1@RVotaw>

Andrea wrote:

> I've got a question for everyone. Several weeks ago (I'm not sure
> exactly when), in a search for more cool Harry websites and items to
> buy, I came across a site that was devoted to swords - actual
> swords.  They had an official "Sword of Gryffindor."  It looked
> EXACTLY like the one in CoS.  It had the rubies, and even Godric
> Gryffindor carved into the steel.  I remember it being around $80 or
> so, and the disclaimer that it was a real sword and not a toy.

Richelle wrote:

Well, that's a good question.  I bought mine on Ebay, but now I see the only
non plastic one is not it still.  The only steel one on Ebay is 31 inches,
mine is 42 inches.  Of course, 31 inches is probably a more realistic side
compared to what was in the movie, but I like mine better anyway.   So I'm
really no help, but I will keep an eye out.  I did find the email of the
person I bought mine from on Ebay, if you'd like to contact them in case
it's the one your looking for, feel free to email me off list.

Richelle





From andie at knownet.net  Sun Dec 21 16:19:45 2003
From: andie at knownet.net (grindieloe)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 16:19:45 -0000
Subject: Sword of Gryffindor
In-Reply-To: <014801c3c7d0$25421a80$df9ecdd1@RVotaw>
Message-ID: <bs4h71+5359@eGroups.com>

Thanks everyone for all of your help, but I've decided that even if I 
do find it, I probably won't buy it anyway. It probably was such a 
copy of WB make that the site was shut down.  Anyway, thanks!

Andrea




From s_ings at yahoo.com  Sun Dec 21 16:37:47 2003
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 11:37:47 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Birthday information needed
Message-ID: <20031221163747.48797.qmail@web41115.mail.yahoo.com>

As you know, we had some problems with the birthday
database. I do most of the information on my computer,
but I suspect I have a few of the dates wrong. If you
were, or would like to be, included on the list for
birthday wishes, please drop me an email at s_ings @
yahoo.com (without the spaces, of course). Please
include your birthdate, email address and how you
would like to be addressed onlist.

Thanks for your help and patience.

Sheryll, the Birthday Elf

=====
http://www.livejournal.com/community/conventionalley/

______________________________________________________________________ 
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca



From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Dec 21 21:15:31 2003
From: catlady at wicca.net (Rita Winston)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 13:15:31 -0800
Subject: CMC's quotations
Message-ID: <3FE60D73.4060404@wicca.net>

CMC posted both the URL for the 1956 W.H.Auden review of ROTK:
http://www.nytimes.com/1956/01/22/books/tolkien-king.html
and that for a National Review interview with John Rhys-Davis:
http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/beard200312170849.asp

I loved the Auden review, I even forwarded to a friend of mine who 
thinks LOTR is second-rate literature because it doesn't have sex (I 
have never understood that reasoning; I have never had any problem 
seeing sex in stories whether the author put it there or not).

I am pretty cynical about the "Hilaire Belloc in his 1938 book
The Great Heresies" quote provided by CMC in his same post as the 
Rhys-Davis interview:

<< Since religion is at the root of all political movements and
changes >>

Chinese Communism? The various nationalist rebellions against
colonial powers? The widespread 1968 protests against various
national governments? In a 1938 book, he must have explained why he 
thinks religion was at the root of Soviet Communism and of Fascism
in its various names in Germany, Italy, and Spain, and of the American 
and French revolutions...

Anyway, back to Rhys-Davis, who said:
<< [Tolkien] knew what he was fighting for in World War I. >>

To defend his country from foreign conquest, i.e. to defend English 
women from being beaten and raped by German soldiers, and English 
workers from being exploited by German conquerors, so that they could 
continue to be beaten and raped and exploited by English husbands and 
employers respectively.

I'm being sarcastic, but World War I is a very bad example: Altho' it 
was sold to the American public as defense against territorial expansion 
conquest by the German Empire, I am under the impression that historians 
generally agree that it happened by accident ... a lunatic shot an 
archduke (itself just about an accident, see Rebecca West) and 
Austria-Hungary had to 'punish' the Serbian nationalists and every 
nation had treaties to come to the defense of each other when attacked 
and for some reason they obeyed their treaty obligations and joined the 
war...

World War II is a much better example of a war against evil (Hitler, 
genocide). But Allies = Good is marred even for conservatives by the 
presence of Stalin among the allies --- he murdered more people than 
Hitler did.

IIRC Auden was in WWII and wrote poems about it, and his book review 
says: << I observe, all too often, men in conflict with each other,
wars and hatreds, but seldom, if ever, a clear-cut issue between Good
on the one side and Evil on the other, though I also observe that both 
sides usually describe it as such. >>

Belloc: <<our sons or our grandsons would see the renewal of that 
tremendous struggle between the Christian culture and what has been
for more than a thousand years its greatest opponent.... >>

By 'greatest opponent', Belloc meant Islam, not science, the 
heliocentric theory, and the theory of evolution. I am under the 
impression that both the Kaiser and Hitler claimed that they were 
fighting to defend Christianity against its enemies -- in the case of 
Hitler, the alleged enemies were atheist communists, Jews, and 
'degenerates'. I don't know who the Kaiser said was attacking Christianity.

For that matter, the slave-owners leading up to USA Civil War said they 
were defending Christianity from the abolitionists, specifically that 
abolitionism was an enemy of The Bible because The Bible said there 
should be slavery. Around 20 years ago, a friend of mine received a book 
for review titled: "War, Women, Slavery, and Sabbath", which was from a 
Fundamentalist theologian writing the history of Fundamentalist versus 
Fundamentalist debate over what the Bible commands about those four 
issues. One of the great things about the debate over Abolitionism is 
that it is *over*.
-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------
R ighteous
A ttractive
V ictorious
E rudite
N atural
C lassic
L ovable
A dept
W ise
------------------------------------------------------------------

           /\ /\                                          ___  ___
            + +     Mews and views                       ( @ \/ @ )
          >> = <<         from Rita Prince Winston        \ @  @ /
                                                           \ () /
                      ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._             \  /
                      `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)       \/
                      (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                     _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                    ((('   (((-(((''  ((((





From s_ings at yahoo.com  Mon Dec 22 01:41:31 2003
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 20:41:31 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Happy Birthday, Martin!
Message-ID: <20031222014131.56968.qmail@web41112.mail.yahoo.com>

*drags out the box of decorations and rummages a bit,
pulling out streamers, balloons and table
centrepieces*

If someone could help me out with these streamers,
I'll pop off and get the food brought in. The ice
cream is in danger of melting if we don't get started
soon!

Today's birthday honouree is Martin Smith. Birthday
owls can be sent care of this list or directly to:
mediaphen at hotmail.com

I hope your day has been filled with magic and the
company of good friends.

Happy Birthday, Martin!

Sheryll the Birthday Elf

=====
http://www.livejournal.com/community/conventionalley/

______________________________________________________________________ 
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca



From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Mon Dec 22 11:06:37 2003
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naamagatus)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 11:06:37 -0000
Subject: Mirabile Dictu! An Actor Who Understands What He's Portraying!
In-Reply-To: <brv0rj+u03r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <bs6j7t+4b9o@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" <jwcpgh at y...> wrote:
> 
> Laura:
> 
> As long as Christianity and Islam see each other as opponents, they 
> both pose a mortal danger to the entire world.  Viggo is absolutely 
> right.  Peace is worth struggling for, and there's room in this 
> world for all of us.  It's prefectly absurd to imagine that there's 
> only one way to find the infinite God, who has created us in our 
> amazing diversity.  

The problem is that the principle of tolerance is *not* accepted by a 
large number of Muslims. Of course, it's also not accepted by a large 
number of Christians, either. The difference is, that in what we call 
Christian countries the ruling doctrine is secular, not religious at 
all. Therefore, the inherent intolerance of Christianity is 
segregated from the political arena. 
Historically, this split (of secular vs. religious spheres) developed 
from Christianity itself. From early times it was seen as proper that 
there should be pope and king - seperate rulers of seperate domains. 
In Islam, the ideal ruler (the Caliph) embodies both spheres. Or, 
rather, there was no split - life - personal and political - is to be 
regulated according to Islam. Add to this the injunction to Jihad - 
spreading Islam by the force of the sword - and you get an extremely 
intolerant political culture. 


> 
> I refuse to be afraid of Islam.  I know too many good, kind, 
> admirable Muslims for that.  I'm not happy with some of its 
> practitioners, but I'm not happy with a good number of my fellow 
> Jews either.  The fact that practitioners choose to corrupt a good 
> doctrine doesn't make the doctrine corrupt.  

As I tried to show above, the intolerance is not a symptom of 
corruption of doctrine. It is part and parcel of the doctrine itself -
as it is in Christianity and Judaism. The difference in tolerance 
lies in the difference between the societies/cultures, not between 
the religions.  

>We need to encourage 
> moderate Muslims to come forward and retake their religion, not 
> treat Islam like the coming of the Black Death.  Respect doesn't 
> always create respect, but we all know what hatred creates.

How do you intend to carry this out? I mean, in what form do you 
envision this encouragement? 


Naama







From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com  Mon Dec 22 17:30:24 2003
From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 17:30:24 -0000
Subject: Church, state and doing what comes naturally
In-Reply-To: <bs6j7t+4b9o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <bs79ng+ktvq@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "naamagatus" <naama_gat at h...> 
wrote:
> The problem is that the principle of tolerance is *not* accepted by 
> a large number of Muslims. Of course, it's also not accepted by a 
> large number of Christians, either. The difference is, that in what 
> we call Christian countries the ruling doctrine is secular, not 
> religious at all. Therefore, the inherent intolerance of 
> Christianity is segregated from the political arena. 
> Historically, this split (of secular vs. religious spheres) 
> developed from Christianity itself. From early times it was seen as 
> proper that there should be pope and king - seperate rulers of 
> seperate domains. 

Actually, this isn't strictly true.  Historically, the monarch has 
been synonymous with the religious leader of the nation (often, in 
ancient civilizations, the queen or king was the high priestess or 
priest of the prevailing religion) and the "secular" leader was the 
head of the army (often a sibling of the monarch, a sort of 
consolation prize for not being king).  This went back and forth over 
time--sometimes the king would also be the leader of the army and 
take troops into war, while there was a separate priest leading the 
spiritual arm of the government.  Not surprisingly, there were often 
coups when the king WASN'T the one running the army.  If you're a 
king and you put someone else in charge of the people with the pointy 
weapons, you take your chances.

For a while, in some countries that had monarchies with real power 
(rather than constitutional monarchies), the king was head of the 
Church and political leader as well.  This was why it was so 
dangerous to be a member of a minority religion, such as Judaism, in 
a Christian state.  (Anywhere in Europe, in other words, for hundreds 
of years.)  Without any warning, the king could decide to run all of 
the Jews out of the country (actually killing a lot of people in the 
process, rather than just ejecting them).

Many countries, including Britain, had a religious litmus test for 
being elected to office of any kind, whether it was Parliament or the 
mayor of a town.  If you weren't C of E (Church of England) you 
didn't qualify.  It wasn't until relatively recent times that ANY 
country separated one's religion (or lack thereof) from the rights 
and responsibilities you have as a citizen, or whether you have to 
support a state church with your taxes.  (Or even whether you can do 
business on a Sunday, or take the Lord's name in vain without being 
slapped with a fine.)

One of the many reasons for the Reformation, in fact, was that kings 
weren't happy with the Pope being in charge of religion in their 
countries, especially as the Inquisition tended to waltz in and start 
charging people with crimes, which was considered to be the purview 
of the state.  For monarchs who wanted more autonomy concerning who 
ran both the state and the church, it wasn't a hard sell to get them 
to convert to Lutheranism, and once the king (now head of the state 
church) did it and said it was the law of the land, you DID it.  (Or 
you suffered, which many Catholics did who refused to convert.)

Christians have definitely not cornered the market on being 
reasonable and tolerant of other religions, or even on separating 
religion from the political sphere.  I mean, here we are in 2003 and 
congress is actually considering passing a constitutional amendment 
to say that marriage is only a union of one man and one woman, and 
the political debate has been rife with religious arguments about why 
this should be, with nary a word about the fact that Christianity is 
NOT the law of the land.  

Many, many houses of worship across this country and in Canada and 
other countries have been been blessing the relationships of same-
gender couples for decades now.  To codify one religious definition 
of marriage into federal law--which has not historically been 
concerned with marrage--is religious descrimination on a par with 
blue laws and requiring public school students to pray and read 
scripture every morning.  It is also blatant sex discrimination and 
for it to be in the Constitution would be an abomination.  This has 
historically been the bailiwick of state governments, but ironically, 
many of the people who have in the past spent a lot of time screaming 
about states' rights are in favor of this amendment because they 
don't like what SOME other states have done or might do (like Vermont 
and Massachusetts).

There are STILL people who see nothing wrong with posting the Ten 
Commandments in courthouses as some sort of model for behavior, 
despite the overwhelmingly religious nature of the document (remember 
the Sabbath day to keep it holy, don't take the Lord's name in vain, 
having no other gods, etc.).

When we have finally decided to uphold human wisdom and understanding 
as the ultimate touchstone in our legal system and culture, rather 
than the tenets of any one religion, then I think we can start 
pointing fingers at cultures with religiously-based laws that we 
deem 'backward' or 'intolerant.'  It has historically been human 
nature to be intolerant in this way, and the US still has a long way 
to go to overcome this history.  While this sort of xenophobia helped 
to protect human cultures in ancient times and is probably programmed 
into our marrow, that doesn't mean we shouldn't fight this tendency 
with every ounce of our being.  In today's small world, this bred-in-
the-bone attitude is killing us, not protecting us.

Plenty of things are "natural" to humans that should be considered 
abhorrent in a civilized society; rather than aspiring to do what 
is "natural" (the anti-marriage pro-amendment folks are very fond of 
talking about what is "natural") we should aspire to what has been, 
historically, incredibly UNnatural for humans: living side-by-side 
with people who are not identical to us in every way and NOT 
demanding that the other people change to become identical to us--or 
else.  Being natural is easy; being unnatural is the hardest thing in 
the world, and therefore we need to keep trying to do this every 
moment of every day. 

Peace (another unnatural thing to which we should aspire) to everyone 
this holiday season.

--Barb

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent
http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb





From kcawte at ntlworld.com  Tue Dec 23 02:17:31 2003
From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 18:17:31 -0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Church, state and doing what comes naturally
References: <bs79ng+ktvq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <002401c3c8fa$f0605490$a6706751@kathryn>






> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "naamagatus" <naama_gat at h...>
> wrote:
> > The problem is that the principle of tolerance is *not* accepted by
> > a large number of Muslims. Of course, it's also not accepted by a
> > large number of Christians, either. The difference is, that in what
> > we call Christian countries the ruling doctrine is secular, not
> > religious at all. Therefore, the inherent intolerance of
> > Christianity is segregated from the political arena.
> > Historically, this split (of secular vs. religious spheres)
> > developed from Christianity itself. From early times it was seen as
> > proper that there should be pope and king - seperate rulers of
> > seperate domains.
>
"psychic_serpent"
> For a while, in some countries that had monarchies with real power
> (rather than constitutional monarchies), the king was head of the
> Church and political leader as well.  This was why it was so
> dangerous to be a member of a minority religion, such as Judaism, in
> a Christian state.  (Anywhere in Europe, in other words, for hundreds
> of years.)  Without any warning, the king could decide to run all of
> the Jews out of the country (actually killing a lot of people in the
> process, rather than just ejecting them).
>

K

As barb points out historically religion, especially religious persecution,
has been run by the State in Christian countries - Mary I burnt all the
protestants she could and then when Elizabeth I came to the throne she
returned the favour to the Catholics. And let's not forget that the Pope
wasn't a seperate institution on his own he had an *army* for goodness sake
at some points and when he didn't he could demand that countries provided
one for him! Religion and politics were deeply intertwined as can be seen by
the titles of a lot of European Monarchs "His most Catholic Majesty" was the
normal way of referring to the Spanish monarch, "Defender of the Faith" was
a title conferred on Henry VIII by the Pope, then he broke from Rome and
became the Head of the Church of England, the Holy Roman Emperor etc etc In
fact if during the medieval period you wanted to live in a country that
*didn't* persecute its religious minorities - you needed to move to a Muslim
country. Other than having to pay extra taxes Christians and Jews lived
persecution free in Moorish Spain - which is more than the Jews could say in
most other countries in Europe. And if you want evidence of how closely
intertwined the state and the religious establishment were look no further
than the standard version of the Bible used in the UK - the King James
Version - because he was the one sponsoring the translation into English.

And another thing - how seperate can religion and the secular spehere be
when technically it is the duty of every good Catholic to try and *kill* the
monarch (as was the case whenever England was ruled by an excommunicated
monarch)!

It was only in the 19th century (I think) that a Catholic could become a
memer of Parliament (which had been banned under Charles II) and a Catholic
still cannot become Monarch. In fact if you marry a Catholic you instantly
remove yourself from the order of succession. The seperation of Church and
state in effect stems from the French Revolution (and they've now taken it
to the extreme that they are trying to claim that if I were to wear an
ostentatious crucifix, or a Jewish skull cap or a Muslim headscarf in a
state school I would be infringing the rights of others), which is where a
lot of the political theories prevelent in the American Revolution came
from.

And on a related note - technically you could say that WWI was started for
religious reasons... the treaty which meant that Russia had to jump to the
defence of Serbia when it was under threat from Austro-Hungary (because a
Serb had killed the Archduke) was a treaty (I do know the name but I can't
spell it so I'm skirting around it) which was signed under the reign of
Catherine the Great giving her the right to interfere on behalf of Orthadox
Christians if they were in danger from the Catholic rulers of Austro-Hungary
(of which Serbia was technically a part) - that then led to a domino effect
whereby Russia also had to mobilize troops on the German border (because the
Germans were bound by treaty to defend Austo-Hungary), the Germans felt they
needed to mobilize their own troops in response and also moved them to the
French border because France and Russia had a treaty ..... etc etc.

Why do I have all that rubbish in my head? Because  only studied two periods
of Russian history and Catherine the Great was one of them and she *really*
sticks in your mind - scary, scary lady, somewhat cool, but scary

K




From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk  Mon Dec 22 19:53:06 2003
From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 19:53:06 -0000
Subject: Mirabile Dictu! An Actor Who Understands What He's Portraying!
In-Reply-To: <bs7hap+lvv9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <bs7i33+g781@eGroups.com>


[Don't ask me what happened there; apologies to those on email or 
digest who may get this message twice]

> > Laura:
> > 
> > As long as Christianity and Islam see each other as opponents, 
> > they both pose a mortal danger to the entire world.  

Naama wrote:

> Historically, this split (of secular vs. religious 
> spheres) developed from Christianity itself. From early times it 
> was seen as proper that there should be pope and king - seperate 
> rulers of seperate domains. 

Pip!Squeak writes:

This wasn't a development *of* Christianity as much as it developed 
from the political structure that Christianity was born into. 
Christianity spread within the Roman Empire. The Empire had NO 
secular/religious split; the Roman state included the idea of the 
Emperor as semi-divine.

So early Christianity was forced to develop a model for running its 
affairs which *did* split the secular and the religious spheres. It 
had no choice. For quite some time, any known Christian would not be 
in the power structure. In fact, they were in opposition to the 
current power structure (which Jesus seems to have been perfectly 
well aware of, much more so than his apostles).


Barb has pointed out the enthusiastic way in which Christians did 
endorse a Christian state religion whenever they had the 
opportunity. The development of tolerance came more from the fact 
that any dissenters always had the early model to fall back on. 
Christians didn't need the support of the state. In their early 
history they'd learnt to run their affairs without it. It was always 
possible (though frequently painful) for minority Christians to 
return to that system.

In the end, it was the model of Christianity that separates the 
secular and the religious spheres that became the dominant one. 

Naama:
> In Islam, the ideal ruler (the Caliph) embodies both spheres. Or, 
> rather, there was no split - life - personal and political - is to 
> be regulated according to Islam. Add to this the injunction to 
> Jihad - spreading Islam by the force of the sword - and you get an 
> extremely intolerant political culture. 
> 

Pip!Squeak:
I agree that Islam has difficulty with the split between secular and 
religious. Unlike Christianity, it gained political power within a 
few years of its foundation. It *doesn't* have an early model of how 
to handle yourself in a non-Islamic world.

But I think the real problem is that the conservative Islamic world 
cannot conceive of any non-Islamic idea being preferable to an 
Islamic one; and I'm really not certain that this *is* doctrinal. I 
think it is more cultural; for many centuries the Islamic countries 
were dominant technically and politically. Things Islamic quite 
simply *were* better than things non-Islamic. More tolerant, more 
advanced, more civilised.

> Laura:
> > 
> > I refuse to be afraid of Islam.  I know too many good, kind, 
> > admirable Muslims for that.  I'm not happy with some of its 
> > practitioners, but I'm not happy with a good number of my fellow 
> > Jews either.  The fact that practitioners choose to corrupt a 
> > good doctrine doesn't make the doctrine corrupt.  

> Naama:
> As I tried to show above, the intolerance is not a symptom of 
> corruption of doctrine. It is part and parcel of the doctrine  
itself -as it is in 
> Christianity and Judaism. The difference in tolerance lies in the 
difference between 
> the societies/cultures, not between the religions.  

Pip!Squeak:
Doctrinally, Islam is tolerant. It regards other religions such as 
Judaism and Christianity as second class, but it tolerates them. 
It's actually explicitly stated that religion should not be imposed 
by compulsion.

Islam was often spread by Jihad; but it's historical fact that the 
religious minorities often found they were better off in 
their `conquered' state than they had been in their `unconquered' 
state. If you wanted to stick with your non-orthodox religion, then 
for many centuries you were actually better off under Islam.


What the conservative Islamic cultures don't have is the 
European/Western idea that 'good things can come from other 
cultures.' 

Western Europe was pretty much forced to develop this idea; the 
collapse of the Roman Empire destroyed the then current 
civilisation. Western Europe fell from flush toilets and central 
heating right back to mud huts (in some places). We had centuries of 
looking at other cultures and seeing that they were doing things ... 
well, *better*. 


>From this developed the grand European tradition of travelling 
abroad and seeing how things were done elsewhere. And if you saw 
that something was being done better, you either stole it, bought 
it, or (last resort) tried to work out how to do it yourself.


And, as the centuries passed, it was observed that this strange 
theory that 'a good idea is a good idea, wherever you found it' 
worked. Whereas the cultures who thought that 'good ideas are only 
found in OUR culture; everybody else is just a bunch of ignorant 
barbarians who couldn't possibly know anything of interest' tended 
to slowly decay.

And, trying to return to the topic, I think this is the real 
difference between Islamic fundamentalism and Western civilisation. 
And why we genuinely have real difficulty understanding the other 
point of view. 

The Islamic conservatives see Islamic civilisation as better. It's a 
system that has worked for over a thousand years. And non-Islamic 
cultures are still what they were for centuries - the 'ignorant 
barbarians'. We have no good ideas to offer them. They *cannot* be 
good ideas; they come from outside the Islamic culture.

Whereas the Western civilisation thinks that 'a good idea is a good 
idea, wherever it came from.' And it thinks that you can always 
improve things. That's what its history tells it. It really doesn't 
understand the mindset of 'we already have a better system, and we 
don't need any ideas from any one else.'

[Of course, there are many, many *individuals* in Western 
civilisation who do have that mindset.]

So you get this awful culture clash of the West happily giving away 
all these neat ideas that we've found work really well. We see this 
as generous. Meantime we study their culture to see what goodies 
they have. This is 'cross-cultural communication'. [grin]

And meantime, conservative Islam is saying 'why are you trying to 
destroy our culture with all these non-Islamic and therefore second-
class ideas? And if your culture is so great, why do you keep 
stealing everything from us?'

Of course, the picture is complicated by the fact that Islam is not 
a monolith. Not all the Islamic countries are conservative, not all 
Muslims are conservative. But yes, I agree with Naama that the clash 
is cultural, and looking more serious by the year. I just don't 
think it is actually part of the Islamic doctrine. It's the way the 
doctrine is being interpreted.

Pip!Squeak





From msbeadsley at yahoo.com  Tue Dec 23 00:40:29 2003
From: msbeadsley at yahoo.com (msbeadsley)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 00:40:29 -0000
Subject: Hogwarts-ish school in the US?
In-Reply-To: <brt6m3+945d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <bs82tt+f433@eGroups.com>

> Pip!Squeak adds:
> 
> Though rumour has it that the Hogwarts extension college at 
> Sunnydale, California recently relocated rather hurriedly...
> 
> Pip

LOL. I thought of Sunnydale while watching the collapse of Mordor in 
RoTK.

Sandy




From kcawte at ntlworld.com  Tue Dec 23 09:10:15 2003
From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 01:10:15 -0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Hogwarts-ish school in the US?
References: <bs82tt+f433@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <001601c3c934$9436d650$a6706751@kathryn>

They're reporting a minor (well in terms of damage/casualties) earthquake in
SoCal - firstly, is everyone OK? secondly - did anyone else think "I wonder
if that's a sign of an impending apocalypse?"

K
"The Loudest Noise Comes From The Electric Minerva."





From andie at knownet.net  Tue Dec 23 03:07:16 2003
From: andie at knownet.net (grindieloe)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 03:07:16 -0000
Subject: Numerology
Message-ID: <bs8bh4+be78@eGroups.com>

Looking over my numerology book, I decided to figure out Harry's 
Destiny Number, or the number that reveals the lessons you will 
learn through your lifetime.  Destiny number is based on someone's 
date of birth, and in Harry's case that was July 31st, 1980.

That means that I added 0+7+3+1+1+9+8+0 = 11.  While for most 
numerology numbers, you would continue adding to get a single digit, 
11 is significant by itself, as is 22; therefore, instead of adding 
the 1+1 to get 2, you would simply keep the 11 as is.

Here is what my book reveals about those with a Destiny Number of 
11...

"Because this number is composed of two Ones, these people are amply 
endowed with all the leadership qualities of Ones, and are 
resolutely determined to achieve whatever it is they set out to do.  

[For example, Harry is determined to get to the DoM to rescue 
Sirius, regardless of the difficulty in doing so.]

What's more, they usually succeed, because they are prepared to take 
risks, and will work around the clock if necessary until they obtain 
their objective. 

[If I remember correctly, Harry was up all night studying for OWL's 
the night before the DoM battle.]

This single-minded determination earns them a great deal of respect 
and acclaim from others. 

[DA members have immense respect for Harry and want him to know that 
whether he wants them there or not, they've got his back.]

Warm and lively, they are popular and may have an enormous influence 
over the other people in their lives - Elevens are special.  

[Harry has always had enormous influence over the WW.  He has always 
been 'special'.]

They should beware of exploiting these attributes for selfish, 
materialistic, or idealistic purposes."

[While I love Harry very much, I do have to admit that he is 
somewhat idealistic. He thinks he can save the world!  Oh, wait... I 
guess he really can save the world.  Oops, my mistake. :) ]


Actual quotation taken from: Predicting Your Future: The Complete 
Book of Divination 
by: Jane Struthers

So, what does everyone else think?  This certainly does sound a lot 
like my favorite hero! :)


Comments?
Andrea




From catlady at wicca.net  Tue Dec 23 03:18:47 2003
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 03:18:47 -0000
Subject: California
In-Reply-To: <001601c3c934$9436d650$a6706751@kathryn>
Message-ID: <bs8c6n+ajng@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Kathryn Cawte" <kcawte at n...>
wrote:
> They're reporting a minor (well in terms of damage/casualties) 
> earthquake in SoCal - firstly, is everyone OK? secondly - did anyone 
> else think "I wonder if that's a sign of an impending apocalypse?"

It was actually in Middle California, about half-way between Los
Angeles and San Francisco, in a not-densely-populated area. I was
sorry to hear that Paso Robles's historic (1892) clock tower had
collapsed, and sorrier to hear that two people had been found dead
under the wreckage,    but I wish someone would report reassuringly
that there was no damage to Hearst Castle.

I felt it (I'm in Los Angeles) but I thought I was just having a dizzy
spell until Regina said: "It's an earthquake" so I dived under my desk
(which is a silly plastic thing built into the modular cubicle and
probably no protection at all if my PC monitor, shelves of manuals,
and so on decide to come crashing down). My thought was, if it really
was an earthquake and not a dizzy spell, if it turned out to be a
significant quake (y'know, doing billions of dollars of damage,
smashing important freeways so no one can get to their jobs, killing
half a dozen people), would the terrorists whose 'chatter' led to the
current state of orange alert claim credit for it?

(Orange Alert sounds like a good name for an orange flavored
caffeinated fizzy drink.)   




From drednort at alphalink.com.au  Tue Dec 23 03:20:40 2003
From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 14:20:40 +1100
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: California
In-Reply-To: <bs8c6n+ajng@eGroups.com>
References: <001601c3c934$9436d650$a6706751@kathryn>
Message-ID: <3FE84F38.2114.174E12A@localhost>

On 23 Dec 2003 at 3:18, Catlady (Rita Prince Winston) wrote:

> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Kathryn Cawte" <kcawte at n...>
> wrote:
> > They're reporting a minor (well in terms of damage/casualties) 
> > earthquake in SoCal - firstly, is everyone OK? secondly - did anyone 
> > else think "I wonder if that's a sign of an impending apocalypse?"
> 
> It was actually in Middle California, about half-way between Los
> Angeles and San Francisco, in a not-densely-populated area. I was
> sorry to hear that Paso Robles's historic (1892) clock tower had
> collapsed, and sorrier to hear that two people had been found dead
> under the wreckage,    but I wish someone would report reassuringly
> that there was no damage to Hearst Castle.

Statement from Hearst Castle - you may have seen it already, but if 
not, it's something:

"Hearst Castle Closed Today, December 22

SAN SIMEON: Hearst Castle was closed today, December 22, due to an 
earthquake in the local area. There were no injuries reported at 
the Castle nor was there any visual damage to the buildings. People 
were evacuated from the castle and visitor center as a 
precautionary measure.

Currently, a team is assessing the buildings for any structural 
damage.

California State Parks Director Ruth Coleman said, "It is our 
mission to protect and preserve California's natural and cultural 
resources. Because of our high standards as museum curators and 
stewards of this property, damage to the Hearst Castle? art 
collection was minimal."

Anyone who was on a tour of Hearst Castle? or had purchased tickets 
for a tour for the remainder of the day may obtain a refund by 
contacting ReserveAmerica, P.O. Box 1510, Rancho Cordova, CA 95741 
or call (800) 695-2269.

Based on current information, the park will be open for business on 
Tuesday, December 23."



Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought
Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html
(ISTJ)       | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 
"You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one
thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the 
facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be 
uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that 
need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil
Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia




From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk  Tue Dec 23 11:41:27 2003
From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 11:41:27 -0000
Subject: ADMIN: Databases
Message-ID: <bs99l7+h88u@eGroups.com>

Following our recent admin in message 20651, we'd like to update you 
on the vanishing Main List databases.

The previous admin informed you that our Main List databases were 
maliciously deleted, and had been restored from backup. Shortly 
after, a second attack was made in which false entries were made 
into three of the databases.

Quite a lot of false entries; several hundred, in fact. ;-)

The admin team decided to take the databases offline until we could
work out a system that still allows members to read the databases,
and will also allow them to be quickly updated.

We apologise that we didn't inform you of this earlier; our first
concern was to find a way to restore the Main List databases in a 
tamper-proof form. We didn't want to send out an endless series of 
administrative updates.

Currently, all the Main List databases are in read only format.
They've been edited so that they can be restored from backup copies
in a matter of minutes. All members can read them; if you want to
add an entry then, for the time being it will be necessary to email 
HPforGrownups-Owner at yahoogroups.com

List administration will then make the updates.

Some entries may have been lost in the process of editing the backup
copies for speed of loading; please notify us of any errors or
omissions in the Inish Alley database, the Birthday database and the
Recommended Reading database.

Our apologies for these problems


Pippy Elf
for List Administration.





From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Tue Dec 23 12:32:55 2003
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naamagatus)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 12:32:55 -0000
Subject: Church, state and doing what comes naturally
In-Reply-To: <002401c3c8fa$f0605490$a6706751@kathryn>
Message-ID: <bs9cln+ppe3@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Kathryn Cawte" <kcawte at n...> 
wrote:
> 
> As barb points out historically religion, especially religious 
persecution, has been run by the State in Christian countries - Mary 
I burnt all the protestants she could and then when Elizabeth I came 
to the throne she returned the favour to the Catholics. And let's not 
forget that the Pope wasn't a seperate institution on his own he had 
an *army* for goodness sake at some points and when he didn't he 
>could demand that countries provided one for him! 

Definitely popes became political, secular powers. However, this was 
seen - at the time - as a corruption of the institution. When - 
Julian, I think? - rode to the war, with a sword in his hand, it was 
a tremendous shock for Christian believers. A landmark in the path to 
the Reformation.

>Religion and politics were deeply intertwined as can be seen by the 
titles of a lot of European Monarchs "His most Catholic Majesty" was 
the normal way of referring to the Spanish monarch, "Defender of the 
Faith" was a title conferred on Henry VIII by the Pope, then he broke 
from Rome and became the Head of the Church of England, the Holy 
>Roman Emperor etc etc. 
>In fact if during the medieval period you wanted to live in a 
country that *didn't* persecute its religious minorities - you needed 
to move to a Muslim country. Other than having to pay extra taxes 
Christians and Jews lived persecution free in Moorish Spain - which 
is more than the Jews could say in most other countries >in Europe. 

Only monotheistic religions were tolerated by the Muslim world. Jews 
and Christians were indeed tolerated as inferior citisens. Pagans, on 
the other hand, had to convert or be killed.

>And if you want evidence of how closely intertwined the state and 
the religious establishment were look no further than the standard 
version of the Bible used in the UK - the King James
> Version - because he was the one sponsoring the translation into 
English.
> 

I think there was some misunderstanding regarding my post. I don't 
think (and haven't said) that Christianity is tolerant. I said (or 
meant to say) that the current secular regimes of the Western world 
developed *from* Christianity. Of course Christianity is intolerant - 
as an exclusive religion (such as Judaism and Islam) it has to be. 

> And another thing - how seperate can religion and the secular 
spehere be when technically it is the duty of every good Catholic to 
try and *kill* the monarch (as was the case whenever England was 
ruled by an excommunicated monarch)!
> It was only in the 19th century (I think) that a Catholic could 
become a memer of Parliament (which had been banned under Charles II) 
and a Catholic still cannot become Monarch. In fact if you marry a 
Catholic you instantly remove yourself from the order of succession. 
The seperation of Church and state in effect stems from the French 
Revolution (and they've now taken it to the extreme that they are 
trying to claim that if I were to wear an ostentatious crucifix, or a 
Jewish skull cap or a Muslim headscarf in a state school I would be 
infringing the rights of others), which is where a lot of the 
political theories prevelent in the American Revolution came
> from.


But it was the Christian view of the world, as divided into a 
religious sphere and a secular sphere, that allowed the very 
formulations of enlightenment thought. In the same way, it was the 
Christian ontology, seperating matter from spirit that enabled the 
formulation of the natural sciences. I.e., the concept of a physical 
nature guided by natural *laws* (making divine intervention 
unnecessary as an explanatory mean). That doesn't mean that the 
Church encouraged the development of modern science, or was anything 
but extremely intolerant towards it. But that's the way ideas 
develop - it's a queer sort of genealogy sometimes.



Naama





From s_ings at yahoo.com  Tue Dec 23 12:35:50 2003
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 07:35:50 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Happy Birthday, Jen!
Message-ID: <20031223123550.65512.qmail@web41109.mail.yahoo.com>

*start decoration the room, realises she has the
holiday decorations instead of the birthday box of
goodies and drags it back out, returning with the
right one and starting over again*

There's a whole cart of food in the other room, if
someone could please wheel that in for me. Careful of
the cake, mind you, we don't want it to topple. 

Today's birthday honouree is Jen Faulkner. Birthday
owls can be sent care of this list or directly to:
jfaulkne at sas.upenn.edu

May your day be filled with joy, magic and everything
HP.

Happy Birthday, Jen!

Sheryll the Birthday Elf

=====
http://www.livejournal.com/community/conventionalley/

______________________________________________________________________ 
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca



From jwcpgh at yahoo.com  Tue Dec 23 13:33:43 2003
From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 13:33:43 -0000
Subject: Church, state and doing what comes naturally
In-Reply-To: <bs9cln+ppe3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <bs9g7n+i816@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "naamagatus" 
<naama_gat at h...> wrote:

<snip> I think there was some misunderstanding regarding my post. I 
don't think (and haven't said) that Christianity is tolerant. <snip> 
Of course Christianity is intolerant - as an exclusive religion 
(such as Judaism and Islam) it has to be. 

Laura:

Judaism is not intolerant.  We have always seen Judaism as a 
difficult commitment that not everyone will want to take on.  So our 
belief system allows for the possibility that people may not want to 
be Jews, but it encourages those people to abide by a basic set of 
ethical (as opposed to ritual)laws.  These are called the Noahide 
laws because they're set down in the story of Noah in Genesis.  

Judaism is a lot tougher on itself than on non-Jews.  The level of 
suspicion and animosity among the different branches is much more 
virulent than anything we feel towards non-Jews over religious 
issues.  (That is to distinguish Jewish feelings about Arab politics 
from feelings about Islam per se.) The ultra-Orthodox in Israel are 
well known for their propensity to resort to violence against people 
who they feel are violating the tenets of the religion-i.e., 
throwing rocks at people in cars on the Sabbath, throwing chairs at 
women trying to pray at the Western Wall.  

<snip> 
Naama:
> But it was the Christian view of the world, as divided into a 
> religious sphere and a secular sphere, that allowed the very 
> formulations of enlightenment thought. 

Laura:
Historically speaking, I'd have to say that the differentiation 
between the religious sphere and the secular one in Western 
development is somewhat spurious.  Even after the Enlightenment and 
the French Revolution, the countries of Europe would have 
unhesitatingly identified themselves as Christian.  The basic 
assumptions of the cultures, the legal systems, even the calendars 
were and are to this day based on Christian practices and beliefs.  
Understand that I'm not making a value judgment here, just an 
historical observation.  As Pip and Barb pointed out, we are 
continually reminded by current events that the government of the US 
as well as a good number of its citizens regard the United States as 
a Christian country.  Not surprising-the law of the land is that a 
creche is a secular symbol.  

Judaism and Islam are indeed comprehensive systems covering both 
the "sacred" and the "secular".  In classical Judaism, there is no 
difference.  All of life is governed by halacha, the rabbinic laws 
derived from our texts and our sages.  This worked fine as long as 
Jews were isolated from the rest of society and lived by ourselves.  
Once we were emancipated, starting with Napoleon, things began to 
fall apart.  Israel claims to be run by halacha but it isn't, any 
more so than fundamentalist Islamic countries are run by Islamic law 
as written.  They both act as they see fit and try to find text to 
justify their behavior after the fact.

Christianity was able to allow a division into secular and sacred 
realms because in reality the underlying framework was the same.  
Civil law was based on Christian beliefs.  But, as has been pointed 
out in this thread, when challenged, the dominant world view quickly 
asserted its control.  And it still does.

Speaking for myself, I find that I'm a lot less defensive about 
being Jewish than I was growing up, and a lot more comfortable with 
other belief systems.  I belonged for a while to a group that did 
interfaith panels in the community-it was me, a nun and a Muslim 
woman most of the time.  We got to be good friends and we each 
discovered that the more time we spent together doing these panels, 
the more we were committed to our own beliefs.  We loved finding 
both the similarities and the differences in what we believed, and 
we found that educating ourselves was the best way to feel secure in 
our beliefs.  Learning where we came from and why we do what we do 
allowed us to find out about each other's ways without feeling 
vulnerable or trying to "win the argument".  

Best wishes to everyone who celebrates Christmas for a happy, 
healthy and peaceful holiday!






From coyoteschild at peoplepc.com  Tue Dec 23 15:05:56 2003
From: coyoteschild at peoplepc.com (IggyMcSnurd)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 09:05:56 -0600
Subject: A fun little poem
Message-ID: <000901c3c966$480b1980$da94aec7@Einstein>

Hi all.

Here's a fun little poem my teacher sent me when we were talking about
the drawbacks of spellcheckers.  (Personally, I think the poem is either
by Shel Silverstein or one of his fans...)

Iggy McSnurd






Eye halve a spelling chequer,

it came with my pea sea.

It plainly marques four my revue,

miss steaks eye kin knot sea.



Eye strike a key and type a word,

and weight four it two say.

weather eye am wrong oar write,

It shows me strait a weigh.

as soon as a mist ache is maid,

it nose bee fore two long.

And eye can put the error rite,

its rare lea ever wrong.



Eye have run this poem threw it,

I am shore your pleased two no.

Its letter perfect awl the weigh,

my chequer tolled me sew.



-Sauce unknown







From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk  Tue Dec 23 15:37:02 2003
From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 15:37:02 -0000
Subject: Nosy Chistmas/Holidays Question?
Message-ID: <bs9neu+5h9t@eGroups.com>

Anyone planning to do anything exciting or exotic this holiday 
season?

And I want answers restricted to the concept of good clean fun.  
Anything "exotic" in that sense - keep to yourselves!

Thanks.

June

Who plans a rather dull Christmas.




From mphunt at sprintmail.com  Tue Dec 23 21:07:51 2003
From: mphunt at sprintmail.com (Tracy Hunt)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 21:07:51 -0000
Subject: Numerology
In-Reply-To: <bs8bh4+be78@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <bsaar7+ckk1@eGroups.com>

"grindieloe" wrote:
> Looking over my numerology book, I decided to figure out Harry's 
> Destiny Number, or the number that reveals the lessons you will 
> learn through your lifetime.  Destiny number is based on someone's 
> date of birth, and in Harry's case that was July 31st, 1980.
> 
> That means that I added 0+7+3+1+1+9+8+0 = 11.  While for most 
> numerology numbers, you would continue adding to get a single 
digit, 11 is significant by itself, as is 22; therefore, instead of 
> adding the 1+1 to get 2, you would simply keep the 11 as is.

<major snipage of Harry's numerology>

Tcy here:

I don't know much about Numerology...it's interesting - but what I 
know of it could fill a small thimble.  The question I have is about 
how you arrive at the number 11 for Harry.  What else do you do but 
add the numbers of his birthday together?  When I add 0, 7, 3, 1, 1, 
9, 8 and 0 I get 29.  What am I missing?

And yes...the info in your book *does* sound a lot like Harry!  JKR 
couldn't have planned that - could she?

Tcy




From mphunt at sprintmail.com  Tue Dec 23 21:19:50 2003
From: mphunt at sprintmail.com (Tracy Hunt)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 21:19:50 -0000
Subject: Nosy Chistmas/Holidays Question?
In-Reply-To: <bs9neu+5h9t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <bsabhm+n8ku@eGroups.com>

 "junediamanti" wrote:
> Anyone planning to do anything exciting or exotic this holiday 
> season?
> 
> And I want answers restricted to the concept of good clean fun.  
> Anything "exotic" in that sense - keep to yourselves!
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> June
> 
> Who plans a rather dull Christmas.



Now Tcy:

Sorry to say I can't come through for you on this one, June.  I also 
have an undramatic holiday planned.  But I'd love to hear from those 
not as dull as I.  






From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Tue Dec 23 21:27:49 2003
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 21:27:49 -0000
Subject: Church, state and doing what comes naturally
In-Reply-To: <bs9cln+ppe3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <bsac0l+alii@eGroups.com>

Naama wrote:

> Of course Christianity is intolerant - 
> as an exclusive religion (such as Judaism and Islam) it has to be. 

I think it's worth unpicking the senses in which this statement is, 
and is not, true.

For many, if not most, Christians, Christianity is a revealed 
religion, which means inter alia that it contains statements that 
are accepted as true by its followers, and true in the sense that 
opposite of those statements must be false.

This means that, for many Christians, it is a corollary of their 
faith that some other people are wrong in their beliefs.  I believe 
the same is broadly true of Judaism and Islam (indeed it is hard to 
see the value of any belief system which gives no help in narrowing 
down the possible range of true assertions, but I digress).

In this sense these religions are intolerant of other beliefs, and 
each other, because their followers will declare things believed by 
others to be false.

Note that this is not the same as believing something 'in ones own 
opinion': I believe all people (except possibly those in a catatonic 
state) believe *some* things to be beyond opinion, to be validated 
outside themselves, and there should be no surprise that religious 
beliefs sometimes come into that category.

Now there are two very peculiar characteristics of human beings that 
come into play here.  The first is that many people, when they are 
told by somebody else that something they believe is incorrect, they 
feel persecuted.  The second is that when they see somebody 
believing something incorrect they feel that it is worth trying the 
use of force to change the other's mind.

Both these characteristics seem to me to be irrational, and many 
people do not share them.  However, they are widespread, as any 
observation of children arguing will rapidly discover.

When combined with the above remarks concerning the revealed 
religions, it can be seen to be pretty well inevitable that their 
histories will have intolerant episodes.  However, I believe that 
this is not intrinsic to the religions but to the nature of people 
as social beings trying to grapple with truth.

In summary, societies will always believe things, and consider that 
it is an appropriate response to those beliefs, to attack some other 
people who do not believe them.  Sometimes those things are 
religious in nature.

David




From dudemom_2000 at yahoo.com  Tue Dec 23 22:22:13 2003
From: dudemom_2000 at yahoo.com (dudemom_2000)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 22:22:13 -0000
Subject: Nosy Chistmas/Holidays Question?
In-Reply-To: <bsabhm+n8ku@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <bsaf6l+hm9f@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Tracy Hunt" <mphunt at s...> 
wrote:
>  "junediamanti" wrote:
> > Anyone planning to do anything exciting or exotic this holiday 
> > season?
> > 
> > And I want answers restricted to the concept of good clean fun.  
> > Anything "exotic" in that sense - keep to yourselves!
> > 
> > Thanks.
> > 
> > June
> > 
> > Who plans a rather dull Christmas.
> 
> 
> 
> Now Tcy:
> 
> Sorry to say I can't come through for you on this one, June.  I 
also 
> have an undramatic holiday planned.  But I'd love to hear from 
those 
> not as dull as I.

*****\(@@)/****

Sorry, I am going to have a dull Christmas too, but we are planning 
a wonderful meal of Honey Glazed Rack of Lamb, Wilted Spinach and I 
haven't decided what else yet..... What is everyone else eating for 
Christmas/Holidays?

Dudemom_2000

*****\(@@)/*****




From desiivy at yahoo.com  Tue Dec 23 23:33:15 2003
From: desiivy at yahoo.com (~Ivy~)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 15:33:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Nosy Chistmas/Holidays Question?
In-Reply-To: <bsaf6l+hm9f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20031223233315.77821.qmail@web12701.mail.yahoo.com>



dudemom_2000 <dudemom_2000 at yahoo.com> wrote:

Sorry, I am going to have a dull Christmas too, but we are planning 
a wonderful meal of Honey Glazed Rack of Lamb, Wilted Spinach and I 
haven't decided what else yet..... What is everyone else eating for 
Christmas/Holidays?


Our family has chosen to make a switch this year normally we eat turkey on thanksgiving at my brother in-laws house then, they come to ours on Christmas eve & we have Ham, scalloped potato's Then on new years eve we have different favorite foods. Taco's, pizza, steak. So we can eat and snack all night long. only this year we all decided to have steak on Christmas Eve. Ham on News years eve. I'll see how it goes but, I don't think it's gonna happen next year, it hardly seems right without the ham, Ya know.

       ~ivy~



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos - Get your photo on the big screen in Times Square

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From CoyotesChild at charter.net  Tue Dec 23 23:46:24 2003
From: CoyotesChild at charter.net (Iggy McSnurd)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 17:46:24 -0600
Subject: Finally
Message-ID: <000001c3c9ae$fcbe0570$4e60bf44@Einstein>

Well, I think I solved the problem and should be getting e-mails from
these lists at last.  Thanks for bearing with...

Iggy McSnurd







From andie at knownet.net  Wed Dec 24 02:53:31 2003
From: andie at knownet.net (grindieloe)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 02:53:31 -0000
Subject: Numerology
In-Reply-To: <bsaar7+ckk1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <bsav3b+108o2@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Tracy Hunt" <mphunt at s...>   
The question I have is about 
> how you arrive at the number 11 for Harry.  What else do you do but 
> add the numbers of his birthday together?  When I add 0, 7, 3, 1, 
1, 
> 9, 8 and 0 I get 29.  What am I missing?
> 



After you get the 29, you have to continue to add the digits 
together.  2 + 9 = 11.  Normally, you would continue to add the 
digits until you got to a single digit, but there are exceptions with 
11 & 22. :)

Andrea :) 

(Who is working on posting Hermione's # on the main list in a few 
minutes._




From jwcpgh at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 24 14:47:55 2003
From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 14:47:55 -0000
Subject: Church, state and doing what comes naturally
In-Reply-To: <bsac0l+alii@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <bsc8ur+641@eGroups.com>

> Naama wrote:
> Of course Christianity is intolerant -  as an exclusive religion 
(such as Judaism and Islam) it has to be. 
> 
Dave Witley responded:
<snip> 
> For many, if not most, Christians, Christianity is a revealed 
> religion, which means inter alia that it contains statements that 
> are accepted as true by its followers, and true in the sense that 
> opposite of those statements must be false.
> 
> This means that, for many Christians, it is a corollary of their 
> faith that some other people are wrong in their beliefs.  I 
believe the same is broadly true of Judaism and Islam <snip>.

Laura:

it depends on what you mean by "intolerant".  If a person holds a 
belief, then it follows that he will reject as incorrect any belief 
that is inconsistent with his own.  I don't think that's intolerant 
per se; tolerance has to do with how able you are to live and let 
live.  

Judaism rejects outright any belief system that isn't monotheistic.  
Our texts are pretty hard on pagans-I'm taking a class on Prophets 
and it's pretty bloody.  The Jews-on God's orders- slaughter whole 
cities down to the last animal.  Funny, we didn't learn this stuff 
in Sunday school...Anyhow, we don't expect everyone to be Jewish, 
nor do we actively seek converts.  What we advocate for is 
monotheism and adherence to a basic set of broad ethical behaviors.  
We recognize that there will be differences in the ways that 
different groups pray and engage in ritual practice.  That's not a 
problem, Jewishly speaking.  

I myself am not fond of the term "tolerance" in the first place.  
There's a theologian named Stephen Carter (I think he's at Harvard) 
who wrote in one of his books that the word implies the power to 
allow or disallow others to exist.  That is, if we can decide to be 
tolerant, we can also decide to be intolerant and persecute those 
who don't believe or act as we do.  Instead, I think we should use 
the word "respect" or some other term that suggests more of a moral  
imperative and less of a power exercise.  I don't feel that I have a 
choice whether or not to "tolerate" others; they have the same right 
to their beliefs as I do.  

Dave wrote:
 <snip> 
> Now there are two very peculiar characteristics of human beings 
that come into play here.  The first is that many people, when they 
are told by somebody else that something they believe is incorrect, 
they feel persecuted.  The second is that when they see somebody 
> believing something incorrect they feel that it is worth trying 
the use of force to change the other's mind.
<snip>

Laura:

I think these reactions come from fear and ignorance-I've found that 
the more knowledgeable and secure you are in your own beliefs, the 
less threatened you feel by those that are different than yours.  

As a species, our intellects have far outstripped our instincts, 
sadly.  





From kcawte at ntlworld.com  Wed Dec 24 23:03:12 2003
From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 15:03:12 -0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Church, state and doing what comes naturally
References: <bsc8ur+641@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <002f01c3ca72$1b4dc570$a6706751@kathryn>


>
> Dave wrote:
>  <snip>
> > Now there are two very peculiar characteristics of human beings
> that come into play here.  The first is that many people, when they
> are told by somebody else that something they believe is incorrect,
> they feel persecuted.  The second is that when they see somebody
> > believing something incorrect they feel that it is worth trying
> the use of force to change the other's mind.
> <snip>
>
> Laura:
>
> I think these reactions come from fear and ignorance-I've found that
> the more knowledgeable and secure you are in your own beliefs, the
> less threatened you feel by those that are different than yours.
>
> As a species, our intellects have far outstripped our instincts,
> sadly.
>
K

Well to be fair it's not necessarily ignorance in the case of trying to
force someone to change their mind - depending how religious you are and
which particular brand of any religion you follow some people strongly
believe that anyone not following that belief is destined to burn in hell
for all eternity (or whatever your particular religion views as a
punishment). Now if you believe someone is going to suffer such a punishment
because they are 'misguided' it's not exactly unnatural to strenuously try
to 'save' that person. I'm not saying that this is right - but it's not a
surprising reaction.

K




From lupinesque at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 24 16:48:53 2003
From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 16:48:53 -0000
Subject: Tolerance/respect (was Church, state)
In-Reply-To: <bsc8ur+641@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <bscg1l+obk3@eGroups.com>

Naama wrote:

> > Of course Christianity is intolerant -  as an exclusive religion 
> (such as Judaism and Islam) it has to be. 

and

> > For many, if not most, Christians, Christianity is a revealed 
> > religion, which means inter alia that it contains statements that 
> > are accepted as true by its followers, and true in the sense that 
> > opposite of those statements must be false.

Yes, many if most Christians believe that.  But is it really the case 
that revealed religion ==> exclusive truths?  Couldn't one 
conceivably believe that God had revealed different paths, equally 
valid, to different peoples?  (For many people the dividing line is 
between "core theology" and such theologically significant, but 
smaller, matters such as ritual and church organization.  They can 
tolerate wide differences in the latter, as long as people share 
their core theological beliefs.  But it's notoriously tricky to 
distinguish between a core theological belief and the theology 
implied by such questions as "should people be baptized in infancy or 
adulthood?")

I heard a very interesting talk by a rabbi recently about his 
grappling with the "chosen people" passages.  They made him very 
uncomfortable, as they did many members of his synagogue; they 
conflict with their strong feeling (derived not only from post-
Enlightenment, liberal US philosophy, but from Jewish teaching) that 
the Jewish people are *not* ipso facto superior to others.  He cited 
another passage in the Bible (Isaiah?) in which God makes it clear 
that he has positive plans for many peoples--something along the 
lines of "never you mind about the Hittites, I'll tell them what I 
have in mind for them."  The implication of that passage is that the 
Jews may be chosen for this particular message, the one given in the 
Jewish Bible, but that God gives other messages to other people.  A 
sort of separate-but-equal deal, except without the 
unconstitutionality.

David continued:

> > This means that, for many Christians, it is a corollary of their 
> > faith that some other people are wrong in their beliefs.  I 
> believe the same is broadly true of Judaism and Islam <snip>.
> 

Laura wrote:

> it depends on what you mean by "intolerant".  If a person holds a 
> belief, then it follows that he will reject as incorrect any belief 
> that is inconsistent with his own.  I don't think that's intolerant 
> per se; tolerance has to do with how able you are to live and let 
> live.  

I agree.

> Judaism rejects outright any belief system that isn't 
monotheistic.  
> Our texts are pretty hard on pagans-I'm taking a class on Prophets 
> and it's pretty bloody.  The Jews-on God's orders- slaughter whole 
> cities down to the last animal.  Funny, we didn't learn this stuff 
> in Sunday school...

Yeah, read Joshua and Judges sometime.  I think the world would be a 
much better place if everyone would pay 10% more attention than they 
do to the parts of their history that are unsavory.  In Judaism, at 
least, you have to look at it for many weeks of the year (the Jewish 
lectionary encompasses the entire Torah [five Books of Moses], in 
contrast to the Christian lectionaries that pick their favorite 
passages).  But it's amazingly easy to skip over the parts you don't 
like, just the same...

> Anyhow, we don't expect everyone to be Jewish, 
> nor do we actively seek converts.  What we advocate for is 
> monotheism and adherence to a basic set of broad ethical > 
behaviors.  

And even then, Jews seldom proselytize.  I grew up Jewish and was 
never given the idea that I should talk to Hindus and Pagans about 
their little polytheism problem.
  
> I myself am not fond of the term "tolerance" in the first place.  
> There's a theologian named Stephen Carter (I think he's at Harvard)

He's at Yale and is actually a lawyer rather than a theologian, in 
terms of his training.  But he made a splash with "The Culture of 
Disbelief," which is a very interesting and thoughtful book even 
though I disagree with the blanket assertion that US culture is 
hostile to religious belief (we're one of the most church-going, God-
believing nations around), and he has written more since about 
religion and public life.
 
> who wrote in one of his books that the word implies the power to 
> allow or disallow others to exist.  That is, if we can decide to be 
> tolerant, we can also decide to be intolerant and persecute those 
> who don't believe or act as we do.  Instead, I think we should use 
> the word "respect" or some other term that suggests more of a 
moral  
> imperative and less of a power exercise.  I don't feel that I have 
a 
> choice whether or not to "tolerate" others; they have the same 
right 
> to their beliefs as I do. 

I like your distinction, though it seems we need something between 
generous "respect" and grudging "tolerance."  I not only tolerate, 
say, Biblical literalism, but I entirely support and accept others' 
right to hold that position.  I can't honestly say I respect their 
position, if by "respect" one means "hold in esteem," but as a 
corollary of humility, I believe I need to accept the possibility 
that their way of perceiving things is better than my own, even 
though at the moment I believe my beliefs are more correct (otherwise 
I wouldn't hold them).

Sad to say, you do indeed have a choice whether to tolerate others.  
You can pass laws against their practicing their religion, or even 
beat them up or kill them if you can get away with it--and if the 
legal system is biased enough toward your religion and against 
theirs, you may well get away with it.  It happens all the time, 
though, thankfully, less here in the US than it used to.  So mere 
tolerance is no small step forward.

To me, the division between church and state is about enforcing the 
merest kind of tolerance:  you may not coerce others into religious 
practices they don't believe in.  Government itself has great 
coercive power (e.g., over children, who are required by law to 
attend government schools or pay for a government-approved 
equivalent), so it's very important to tread carefully.  Carter 
explores some of the tricky parts.  
 
David wrote:

> > Now there are two very peculiar characteristics of human beings 
> that come into play here.  The first is that many people, when they 
> are told by somebody else that something they believe is incorrect, 
> they feel persecuted.  The second is that when they see somebody 
> > believing something incorrect they feel that it is worth trying 
> the use of force to change the other's mind.

I have received very defensive reactions from Christians simply by 
the statement "I am not a Christian."  No matter how gently, 
respectfully, and matter-of-factly I state it, and no matter how 
warranted the statement in the context (e.g., we're having a 
discussion about our theological beliefs), a few otherwise 
intelligent and accepting people have bristled and wondered why I 
felt the need to say it.  Considering that 5/6 of the people in the 
world are not Christian, one would think they had long since accepted 
the fact that the person they are talking to might not share their 
beliefs, but they seem positively affronted.  

It isn't that they don't get that not all ministers are Christian, 
either--that does happen sometimes and is more understandable to me.  
I think that deep down--as used as they were to people of other 
faiths (this was in a very ecumenical and interfaith theological 
school), as little as their strand of Christianity emphasizes witness 
and proselytizing, and as appalled as they would have been by any 
kind of violence or coercion of adherents to other religions--they 
harbor a belief that in an ideal world, everyone would embrace Jesus 
Christ the way they do.  Just my theory.

Merry Christmas, then, everyone who celebrates it--and if you don't, 
have a lovely day.

Amy Z




From lupinesque at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 24 16:51:53 2003
From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 16:51:53 -0000
Subject: Tolerance/respect (was Church, state)
In-Reply-To: <bscg1l+obk3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <bscg79+g1rp@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Amy Z" <lupinesque at y...> 
wrote:
> Naama wrote:
> 
> > > Of course Christianity is intolerant -  as an exclusive 
religion 
> > (such as Judaism and Islam) it has to be. 
> 
> and
> 
> > > For many, if not most, Christians, Christianity is a revealed 
> > > religion, which means inter alia that it contains statements 
that 
> > > are accepted as true by its followers, and true in the sense 
that 
> > > opposite of those statements must be false.

Whoops.  David wrote that part.

Amy Z




From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk  Wed Dec 24 18:15:05 2003
From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 18:15:05 -0000
Subject: Christmas Eats - was Nosy Chistmas/Holidays Question?
In-Reply-To: <20031223233315.77821.qmail@web12701.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <bscl39+qa44@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, ~Ivy~ <desiivy at y...> wrote:
> 
> 
> dudemom_2000 <dudemom_2000 at y...> wrote:
> 
> Sorry, I am going to have a dull Christmas too, but we are 
planning 
> a wonderful meal of Honey Glazed Rack of Lamb, Wilted Spinach and 
I 
> haven't decided what else yet..... What is everyone else eating 
for 
> Christmas/Holidays?

That sounds fantastic!  Is there a spare seat? <g>

We will be having a very large chicken (free range - taste the 
difference, and there aren't that many of us) because I find it very 
hard to source a turkey that is humanely reared and doesn't cost 
roughly the price of a three-bedroomed suburban house.

The trimmings will be traditional:

Chestnut stuffing
Chipolata sausages and bacon rolls
The usual vegetables and so on. 

No Christmas pudding because we don't like it, so I located a 
strawberry and champagne meringue roulade.  Nice.

This bird will hopefully produce about 4 meals - the standard on on 
the day and the day after, then an indian rice dish called a 
Biryani, then a very stick-to-the-ribs soup.  

For New Year's lunch, we will have ham cooked in - believe it, coca 
cola.  This is an american recipe and works beautifully (not diet 
coke though).  You also wind up with a fantastic stock for a black 
bean soup.

June




From jwcpgh at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 24 21:42:36 2003
From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 21:42:36 -0000
Subject: Church, state and doing what comes naturally
In-Reply-To: <002f01c3ca72$1b4dc570$a6706751@kathryn>
Message-ID: <bsd18c+sgmp@eGroups.com>

> > Laura:
> > I think these reactions come from fear and ignorance-I've found 
that the more knowledgeable and secure you are in your own beliefs, 
the less threatened you feel by those that are different than yours. 
<snip> 

> Kathryn Cawte:
> 
> Well to be fair it's not necessarily ignorance in the case of 
trying to force someone to change their mind - depending how 
religious you are and which particular brand of any religion you 
follow some people strongly believe that anyone not following that 
belief is destined to burn in hellfor all eternity (or whatever your 
particular religion views as a punishment). <snip>

Laura replies:

To me, that's a fear reaction.  That kind of stance is adopted by 
people who feel threatened.  And it often goes hand in hand with 
extreme social conservatism, hostility to those different than you, 
anxiety about change and so forth.  The fear comes from having their 
world view challenged and from living in an environment that they 
perceive as unstable and unpredictable.  It's a sort of societal 
Luddite-ism.

This isn't to say that those people don't sincerely believe in hell 
and all that stuff.  But I think that a philosophy of that nature 
originates in fear.  It must not be a very joyful way to live.




From fakeplastikcynic at hotmail.com  Wed Dec 24 22:15:00 2003
From: fakeplastikcynic at hotmail.com (Martha)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 22:15:00 -0000
Subject: Nosy Chistmas/Food
In-Reply-To: <bsaf6l+hm9f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <bsd354+r1gm@eGroups.com>

Dudemom:

> Sorry, I am going to have a dull Christmas too, but we are planning 
> a wonderful meal of Honey Glazed Rack of Lamb, Wilted Spinach and I 
> haven't decided what else yet..... What is everyone else eating for 
> Christmas/Holidays?

Martha:

I do love a foodie question. This year, due to a combination of my 
father's all-round foodiness and the influence of the River Cafe Easy 
Christmas supplement that came with the Guardian a couple of weeks 
ago, my family are having roasted birds (quail, poussin, guinea fowl) 
and something called "Vodka Spaghetti", which I must admit I am 
slightly worried about. Why add vodka to something that is nice? You 
add nice things to vodka to help you get the vodka down, but why add 
the vodka to the nice thing when there's no need to drink the vodka? 
Even more worryingly, I have been entrusted with the task of cooking 
the damn stuff, so if it is, as I suspect it will be, revolting, 
it'll be my fault. Hmmph. I don't know - the vodka I have been 
provided with seems to be a reputable brand, and perhaps that will 
make a difference. The vodka I am used to is generally called 
something like "Rackmanninov Oginal Recpie Wodka" and costs about ?3 
for a very large bottle, and I would certainly not put it anywhere 
near pasta, or in fact anything intended for human consumption.

I'm posting this at about 10.20pm, Christmas Eve - so I'll take the 
opportunity to wish each and every person here a very very happy 
whatever-it-is-you-choose-to-celebrate, and to ask - what did 
everyone get from Father Christmas? ;-)

~ Martha (who finally saw RotK - could have done without the multiple 
endings but otherwise, woah, dude)




From jwcpgh at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 24 22:18:11 2003
From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 22:18:11 -0000
Subject: Tolerance/respect (was Church, state)
In-Reply-To: <bscg1l+obk3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <bsd3b3+q74j@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Amy Z" <lupinesque at y...> 
wrote:
<snip> I heard a very interesting talk by a rabbi recently about his 
> grappling with the "chosen people" passages.  They made him very 
> uncomfortable, as they did many members of his synagogue; they 
> conflict with their strong feeling (derived not only from post-
> Enlightenment, liberal US philosophy, but from Jewish teaching) 
that the Jewish people are *not* ipso facto superior to others.  He 
cited another passage in the Bible (Isaiah?) in which God makes it 
clear that he has positive plans for many peoples--something along 
the lines of "never you mind about the Hittites, I'll tell them what 
I have in mind for them."  The implication of that passage is that 
the Jews may be chosen for this particular message, the one given in 
the Jewish Bible, but that God gives other messages to other 
people.  A sort of separate-but-equal deal, except without the 
> unconstitutionality.

Laura responds:

Those passages make a lot of people uncomfortable.  If you read them 
as saying that we are superior to other people, they should make you 
uncomfortable because that's a gross misreading. Trying to read 
Bible text using an Enlightenment vocabulary is going to cause 
problems (let alone the hazards of translating Hebrew into Latin or 
Greek and then into English...but that's another topic).  

Chosenness means exactly what the Isaiah passage suggests:  that 
Jews have a particular relationship to God.  At the time of Isaiah, 
and certainly in Torah times, we were the only peoples to have such 
a relationship.  The relationship consisted (and consists) in a 
contract:  God will take us to be God's people and we will take God 
to be our God.  There are quite a lot of mutual obligations arising 
from that agreement, of course, but that's the essence.  As God's 
people, the early Jews were to live in such a way as to demonstrate 
to their polytheistic neighbors that there was another way.  

Now once other monotheistic religions appear, the question of 
chosenness becomes much more fraught.  It's no longer a introducing 
the world to the one God.  Now it's a family matter-who is God's 
favorite?  Of course, that's a tragically wrong way to look at the 
situation, but that's what happened.  Jews over time tended to adopt 
the "chosen means superior" stance in reaction to endless 
persecution.  And to some extent it has to be said that it was a 
successful strategy for our survival-if we'd succumbed to self-
hatred we'd have died out.  But it's no longer adaptive, IMHO, and 
it's time we returned to the original meaning of chosenness; that 
is, we tend to remember the benefit and forget the obligation, and 
we need to live up to our part of the contract.

<snip> 
Laura:
 Anyhow, we don't expect everyone to be Jewish, 
> > nor do we actively seek converts.  What we advocate for is 
> > monotheism and adherence to a basic set of broad ethical > 
> behaviors.  
> 
Amy:
> And even then, Jews seldom proselytize.  I grew up Jewish and was 
> never given the idea that I should talk to Hindus and Pagans about 
> their little polytheism problem.

Laura replies:

The proselytizing is much more likely to happen within the 
religion.  Lubavitcher Chassids are infamous for this.  We have 
people in my neighborhood who stand outside the kosher market on 
Friday afternoons and ask you if you plan to light candles for the 
Sabbath.  I always wish them a good Sabbath in Hebrew, just to play 
with their minds.  They don't expect a woman wearing jeans and with 
very short hair to be observant.  But I am.  
>
Laura wrote:   
> > I myself am not fond of the term "tolerance" in the first 
place.  There's a theologian named Stephen Carter (I think he's at 
Harvard)...
> 
Amy:
> He's at Yale and is actually a lawyer rather than a theologian, in 
> terms of his training. 

Laura replies:
Thanks for the corrections-it's been a while since I read his stuff.

Laura wrote:
...who wrote in one of his books that the word implies the power to 
> > allow or disallow others to exist.  That is, if we can decide to 
be tolerant, we can also decide to be intolerant and persecute those 
who don't believe or act as we do.  Instead, I think we should use 
the word "respect" or some other term that suggests more of a moral  
imperative and less of a power exercise.  I don't feel that I have a 
choice whether or not to "tolerate" others; they have the same right 
to their beliefs as I do. 

Amy:
> 
> I like your distinction, though it seems we need something between 
> generous "respect" and grudging "tolerance."  I not only tolerate, 
> say, Biblical literalism, but I entirely support and accept 
others' right to hold that position.  <snip> 

Laura replies:
Yes, what I meant was that it's the person's right to hold the 
belief that I respect.  I may agree, disagree or be indifferent, but 
I can't expect respect for my right to believe what I choose if I 
don't also believe that everyone else has that right.  The problem 
arises, of course, when a person says that their belief necessitates 
behaviors that might be objectionable to others, like proselytizing 
or outlawing the teaching of the theory of evolution.

Amy:
> Sad to say, you do indeed have a choice whether to tolerate 
others.  You can pass laws against their practicing their religion, 
or even beat them up or kill them if you can get away with it--and 
if the legal system is biased enough toward your religion and 
against theirs, you may well get away with it.  It happens all the 
time, though, thankfully, less here in the US than it used to.  So 
mere tolerance is no small step forward.

Laura:
Amen to that last sentence!

I should have distinguished between individual and state.  On a 
personal level I don't feel that respecting the freedom of others to 
believe as they see fit is a matter of choice.  I feel it would be 
wrong of me to take any other position.  The state can, of course, 
have a philosophy different than my personal one or my religious-
group one.  And because the state reflects the beliefs of its 
members, it may change its stance on a particular issue as the 
people it represents change their minds.  

<remainder snipped>




From CoyotesChild at charter.net  Wed Dec 24 22:23:35 2003
From: CoyotesChild at charter.net (Iggy McSnurd)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 16:23:35 -0600
Subject: Goodbye
Message-ID: <000201c3ca6c$95663cd0$4e60bf44@Einstein>

Iggy here:

Well all, I just wanted to drop you a line to say "goodbye."  As of
midnight tonight I will be removing myself from these mailing lists.

To those in my writing group and a couple of others, I will try to stay
in touch.

To Caius Marcus, if you don't mind... I may still periodically send in
the odd filk or two to you for your web page.

To the rest of you... It's been real.


*bows and walks from the room with a swirl of his cloak*


Iggy McSnurd







From fc26det at aol.com  Wed Dec 24 22:40:32 2003
From: fc26det at aol.com (Potterfanme)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 22:40:32 -0000
Subject: Goodbye
In-Reply-To: <000201c3ca6c$95663cd0$4e60bf44@Einstein>
Message-ID: <bsd4l0+tr4d@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Iggy McSnurd" 
<CoyotesChild at c...> wrote:
> Iggy here:
> 
> Well all, I just wanted to drop you a line to say "goodbye."  As of
> midnight tonight I will be removing myself from these mailing lists.
> 
> To those in my writing group and a couple of others, I will try to 
stay
> in touch.
> 
> To Caius Marcus, if you don't mind... I may still periodically send 
in
> the odd filk or two to you for your web page.
> 
> To the rest of you... It's been real.
> 
> 
> *bows and walks from the room with a swirl of his cloak*

> 
> 
> Iggy McSnurd

Iggy, 
I really hate to see you leave.  I have very much enjoyed reading 
your posts.  I have no idea why you are leaving but you will be 
missed.  I wish you would reconsider. 
Susan




From grannybat at hotmail.com  Wed Dec 24 22:47:10 2003
From: grannybat at hotmail.com (grannybat84112)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 22:47:10 -0000
Subject: Peace on Earth, Good Will Toward HP4GU
Message-ID: <bsd51e+tati@eGroups.com>

God rest ye, merry Potterites
let nothing you dismay.
Our Harry books will keep us warm
these darkened, Dursley'd days
and save us all from Muggles who would
censor harmless play.
O tidings of Magic and Joy,
Magic and Joy!
O tidings of Magic and Joy.


Wishing everyone in the HP4GU family 
safe and happy holidays,

Grannybat





From vinnia_chrysshallie at yahoo.co.nz  Wed Dec 24 23:04:24 2003
From: vinnia_chrysshallie at yahoo.co.nz (=?iso-8859-1?q?Vinnia?=)
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 12:04:24 +1300 (NZDT)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Goodbye
In-Reply-To: <bsd4l0+tr4d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20031224230424.44648.qmail@web41215.mail.yahoo.com>

"Iggy McSnurd" <CoyotesChild at c...> wrote:

Well all, I just wanted to drop you a line to say
"goodbye."  As of midnight tonight I will be removing
myself from these mailing lists.


Vinnia:
Iggy, don't leave please! I've always enjoyed reading
your post. But if you do leave...know that you'll be
missed.


-Vinnia-

http://personals.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Personals
New people, new possibilities. FREE for a limited time.



From msbeadsley at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 24 23:26:39 2003
From: msbeadsley at yahoo.com (msbeadsley)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 23:26:39 -0000
Subject: Goodbye
In-Reply-To: <000201c3ca6c$95663cd0$4e60bf44@Einstein>
Message-ID: <bsd7bf+3gm9@eGroups.com>

> Iggy here:
> 
> Well all, I just wanted to drop you a line to say "goodbye."  As of
> midnight tonight I will be removing myself from these mailing lists.

Blessed Be, Iggy, and Good Yule to you. I hope you come back.

Sandy




From vinnia_chrysshallie at yahoo.co.nz  Wed Dec 24 23:43:13 2003
From: vinnia_chrysshallie at yahoo.co.nz (=?iso-8859-1?q?Vinnia?=)
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 12:43:13 +1300 (NZDT)
Subject: Happy holiday!
Message-ID: <20031224234313.94921.qmail@web41204.mail.yahoo.com>

Wish you all a happy Christmas, Hanukkah, and Kwanzaa.

Have great time, be safe, and be good!

Vinnia

http://personals.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Personals
New people, new possibilities. FREE for a limited time.



From CoyotesChild at charter.net  Wed Dec 24 23:53:33 2003
From: CoyotesChild at charter.net (Iggy McSnurd)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 17:53:33 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Goodbye
In-Reply-To: <bsd7bf+3gm9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000b01c3ca79$269a3600$4e60bf44@Einstein>

> 
> > Iggy here:
> >
> > Well all, I just wanted to drop you a line to say "goodbye."  As of
> > midnight tonight I will be removing myself from these mailing lists.
> 
> Blessed Be, Iggy, and Good Yule to you. I hope you come back.
> 
> Sandy
> 

A Good Yule to you as well.  

As for the other stuff.. well.. here's what I told someone else:  (Yes,
it is pasted, seems that I have had to reply to a number of people about
this recently...  It looks like the chance of simply going into a form
of "deep lurk" hibernation is increasing, to tell the truth.)



I have gotten a few reactions of people wanting me to stay.  I may
simply go into a form of "deep lurk" mode... it all depends on how
people react to me saying goodbye, to be honest.

There are two main reasons I'm planning on leaving...

The first is because the topics don't seem to be as interesting anymore.
Many of the discussions lately seem to be picking apart little details
or dwelling for a *long* time on a dying topic.  That's not *too* bad,
since there are still the occasional decent conversations.

The other reason, and most important to me... is that I'm tired of the
fact that 80% of the time I reply to a topic, it dies off immediately.
(I tagged my posts as the "MLTA" for a while... It stood for "the Main
List Topic Assassin...")  The other 20% of the time I reply to
something, it either gets taken completely wrong and twisted to mean
something I didn't say... or ignored completely.

As for posts I originate... well... they don't seem to get anything but
a negative reaction most of the time, when they're reacted to at all.  


Simply put, I don't feel as much that this is a place I am at home
anymore because of how people react (or don't bother to react) to me.
(I may come back eventually and lurk for a while... maybe not.)


Iggy McSnurd







From CoyotesChild at charter.net  Wed Dec 24 23:55:17 2003
From: CoyotesChild at charter.net (Iggy McSnurd)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 17:55:17 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Happy holiday!
In-Reply-To: <20031224234313.94921.qmail@web41204.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000c01c3ca79$64bd7fa0$4e60bf44@Einstein>

> Wish you all a happy Christmas, Hanukkah, and Kwanzaa.
> 
> Have great time, be safe, and be good!
> 
> Vinnia
> 


*grin* And to you...

(But what about us Pagans who celebrate the Yule and Solstice?)

Iggy McSnurd







From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com  Thu Dec 25 00:21:08 2003
From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (Blair)
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 00:21:08 -0000
Subject: Goodbye
In-Reply-To: <000201c3ca6c$95663cd0$4e60bf44@Einstein>
Message-ID: <bsdahk+3h62@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Iggy McSnurd" 
<CoyotesChild at c...> wrote:
> Iggy here:
> 
> Well all, I just wanted to drop you a line to say "goodbye."  As of
> midnight tonight I will be removing myself from these mailing lists.
(snippage)
> To the rest of you... It's been real.

Bye, Iggy!  I wish I would've gotten the chance to challenge you on 
something (I like to do that to all the great posters to improve my 
own ability).  If you go into hibernation, stop by and read 
occasionally - maybe something will interest you.  Good luck in RL!

Oryomai

Happy holidays everyone!




From bookraptor11 at yahoo.com  Thu Dec 25 01:34:40 2003
From: bookraptor11 at yahoo.com (bookraptor11)
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 01:34:40 -0000
Subject: Goodbye
In-Reply-To: <000b01c3ca79$269a3600$4e60bf44@Einstein>
Message-ID: <bsderg+cupj@eGroups.com>

> I have gotten a few reactions of people wanting me to stay.  I may
> simply go into a form of "deep lurk" mode... it all depends on how
> people react to me saying goodbye, to be honest.
> 
> There are two main reasons I'm planning on leaving...
> 
> The first is because the topics don't seem to be as interesting 
anymore.
> Many of the discussions lately seem to be picking apart little 
details
> or dwelling for a *long* time on a dying topic.  That's not *too* 
bad,
> since there are still the occasional decent conversations.
> 
> The other reason, and most important to me... is that I'm tired of 
the
> fact that 80% of the time I reply to a topic, it dies off 
immediately.
> (I tagged my posts as the "MLTA" for a while... It stood for "the 
Main
> List Topic Assassin...")  The other 20% of the time I reply to
> something, it either gets taken completely wrong and twisted to mean
> something I didn't say... or ignored completely.
> 
> As for posts I originate... well... they don't seem to get anything 
but
> a negative reaction most of the time, when they're reacted to at 
all.  
> 
> 
> Simply put, I don't feel as much that this is a place I am at home
> anymore because of how people react (or don't bother to react) to 
me.
> (I may come back eventually and lurk for a while... maybe not.)
> 
> 
> Iggy McSnurd

Iggy, you're not alone in feeling that way.  I could have written 
most of your post verbatim, especially the second reason. It's 
just the nature of the list.  Even when I joined in Aug of '01 there 
were so many posts it was easy to get ignored. Before you think I'm 
being very well adjusted about it, let me reassure you there have 
been times I've taken it personally and felt hurt, especially when I 
think I've raised a good point or an original thought, only to be 
ignored or have someone pick out one sentence that's not essential to 
my main idea and criticize.

I mostly lurk, but still post, though infrequently. Lately, there 
have been so many new people that old ideas keep being reposted, 
which don't interest me as much when I've read a lot of opinions 
about them over the past two years. People new to HP are hearing them 
for the first time and I can't blame them.  I still keep checking in; 
occasionally something good comes up.

I hope you keep on the lists, even if you lurk. Thanks for making me 
feel better. Like I said, I try to tell myself it's not personal but 
usually keep having to reassure myself every time I post. It helps 
hearing it from someone else because if there are two of us, bet 
there's many more who feel this way and it makes it harder for me to 
think it's me.

Donna
Bookraptor11




From michel56 at earthlink.net  Thu Dec 25 01:48:12 2003
From: michel56 at earthlink.net (TruckgalMe)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 20:48:12 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
Subject: Goodbye
Message-ID: <5121803.1072316893223.JavaMail.root@donald.psp.pas.earthlink.net>

-----Original Message----- 
From: Iggy McSnurd 
Sent: Dec 24, 2003 5:23 PM 
To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, HPfGU Group 
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Goodbye 

Iggy here:

Well all, I just wanted to drop you a line to say "goodbye."  As of
midnight tonight I will be removing myself from these mailing lists.

To those in my writing group and a couple of others, I will try to stay
in touch.

To Caius Marcus, if you don't mind... I may still periodically send in
the odd filk or two to you for your web page.

To the rest of you... It's been real.


*bows and walks from the room with a swirl of his cloak*


Iggy McSnurd


Now Michele:
 
Awww, shucks, I hate to hear that you are leaving.  I had to come out of lurker mode just to say that, too!  Iggy, I have enjoyed your posts, both here and on the main list.  You know how there are just some people's posts that you always read, no matter what?  Well, you have been one of those persons to me.  Your posts can be funny or thought-provoking, but always highly enjoyable.
So, if you can stay, please do!  And if not, then all the best to you, and maybe you can come back in the future!!
 
Happy New Year
Michele L 
 
 





From CoyotesChild at charter.net  Thu Dec 25 01:51:56 2003
From: CoyotesChild at charter.net (Iggy McSnurd)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 19:51:56 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Goodbye
In-Reply-To: <bsderg+cupj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000001c3ca89$b0773ac0$4e60bf44@Einstein>

Awww... *@&#$

The one with the explanations and such was meant to go as a direct post
to someone.  *sigh*

Well, no use trying to undo flubs like that without a Time Turner.

*whaps self upside the head with a large rubber turnip*


In reply to Donna (who's response to me is at the bottom of this
letter...):

Enough people have asked me to stay that it looks like, instead of
completely leaving the groups, I may just end up going on hiatus from
the group and go into a "deep lurk" hibernation for a while until things
hopefully improve.  We'll see what happens.  Anyone who still feels the
need to contact me can, but it may be quite some time before I post on
the lists again. 


Iggy McSnurd


> 
> Iggy, you're not alone in feeling that way.  I could have written
> most of your post verbatim, especially the second reason. It's
> just the nature of the list.  Even when I joined in Aug of '01 there
> were so many posts it was easy to get ignored. Before you think I'm
> being very well adjusted about it, let me reassure you there have
> been times I've taken it personally and felt hurt, especially when I
> think I've raised a good point or an original thought, only to be
> ignored or have someone pick out one sentence that's not essential to
> my main idea and criticize.
> 
> I mostly lurk, but still post, though infrequently. Lately, there
> have been so many new people that old ideas keep being reposted,
> which don't interest me as much when I've read a lot of opinions
> about them over the past two years. People new to HP are hearing them
> for the first time and I can't blame them.  I still keep checking in;
> occasionally something good comes up.
> 
> I hope you keep on the lists, even if you lurk. Thanks for making me
> feel better. Like I said, I try to tell myself it's not personal but
> usually keep having to reassure myself every time I post. It helps
> hearing it from someone else because if there are two of us, bet
> there's many more who feel this way and it makes it harder for me to
> think it's me.
> 
> Donna
> Bookraptor11
> 
> 
> ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________
> 
> Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the group's Admin
Files!
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/
> 
> Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material
from
> posts to which you're replying!
> 
> 
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
>  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>  HPFGU-OTChatter-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
>  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 






From andie at knownet.net  Thu Dec 25 02:57:41 2003
From: andie at knownet.net (grindieloe)
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 02:57:41 -0000
Subject: Goodbye
In-Reply-To: <000b01c3ca79$269a3600$4e60bf44@Einstein>
Message-ID: <bsdjn5+ta3i@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Iggy McSnurd" 
<CoyotesChild at c...> wrote:
I'm tired of the
fact that 80% of the time I reply to a topic, it dies off immediately.
  The other 20% of the time I reply to
something, it either gets taken completely wrong and twisted to mean
something I didn't say... or ignored completely.
> 
> As for posts I originate... well... they don't seem to get anything 
but
> a negative reaction most of the time, when they're reacted to at 
all.  



I also understand your feelings here.  Many times I want to post 
something and think twice, three times about it... I know that either 
it will be ignored or will be simply waved away as not mattering 
much.  If I do get a response, much of the time it is something kind 
of rude.  Luckily, the posts I made this week I got some good 
responses to, but that certainly doesn't happen very often, at least 
not on the main list.  I stay because I still love to read about 
Harry and be in the company of people who love Harry as I do.
Anyway, I do hope you consider staying.  If not, good luck to you. 

Andrea




From boggles at earthlink.net  Thu Dec 25 03:05:56 2003
From: boggles at earthlink.net (Jennifer Boggess Ramon)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 21:05:56 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Hogwarts-ish school in the US?
In-Reply-To: <brsuhs+r13a@eGroups.com>
References: <brsuhs+r13a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <p05210600bc1002e67b88@[192.168.1.100]>

At 7:18 PM +0000 12/18/03, Steve wrote:
>--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Sue4419" <sue4419 at y...> wrote:
>  >
>>  I was just wondering if anyone had any thoughts about if there were a
>>  school for Witchcraft and Wizardry in the U.S., where would it be
>  > located (city, state) and what would it be called?
>
>bboy_mn:
>
><snip>
>For some odd reason, I have this idea that there is a Magic School in
>San Francisco, although I have no idea why.
>
>And I'm undecided whether I want there to be a magic school in Texas.
>
>...or not.

Bear in mind that education is, by design, the responsibility of the 
individual states in the US, not the federal government.  I see no 
reason why the Wizarding World would work differently.  I had always 
imagined that each state maintained its own wizarding school, similar 
to the governor's academies for math and science (although of course 
the wizarding schools are older - perhaps the inspiration went the 
other way, when a wizard had a Squib son or daughter who was 
scientifically gifted).  Some of them (the California one, for 
instance, which I imagine existing somewhere near CalTech - after 
all, odd flying things and explosions would have an easy alibi) would 
be almost the size of Hogwarts, while others (like the Mississippi 
one) would be only a handful of students.

And yes, the one in Louisiana is probably located in New Orleans for 
security reasons, although I admit I like the idea of it being in 
Baton Rouge instead.

-- 

  - Boggles, aka J. C. B. Ramon			boggles(at)earthlink.net
"It is not knowledge, but the act of learning, not possession but the 
act of getting there, which grants the greatest enjoyment. "
	- Gauss, in a Letter to Bolyai, 1808.



From kcawte at ntlworld.com  Thu Dec 25 11:23:18 2003
From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte)
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 03:23:18 -0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Hogwarts-ish school in the US?
References: <brsuhs+r13a@eGroups.com> <p05210600bc1002e67b88@[192.168.1.100]>
Message-ID: <000b01c3cad9$7f3e2900$a6706751@kathryn>


> Boggles

> Bear in mind that education is, by design, the responsibility of the
> individual states in the US, not the federal government.  I see no
> reason why the Wizarding World would work differently.

Well since Hogwarts is 1000 years old I would assume that any non-native
American schools would have been set up to mimic the model that was in
existence when the colonies were founded. Besides I'm not sure how likely it
would be to have three schools covering Europe and at least the western part
of Russia and 50 in the US.

K




From vinnia_chrysshallie at yahoo.co.nz  Thu Dec 25 04:09:52 2003
From: vinnia_chrysshallie at yahoo.co.nz (=?iso-8859-1?q?Vinnia?=)
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 17:09:52 +1300 (NZDT)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Happy holiday!
In-Reply-To: <000c01c3ca79$64bd7fa0$4e60bf44@Einstein>
Message-ID: <20031225040952.47743.qmail@web41213.mail.yahoo.com>

I <Vinnia> wrote:
> Wish you all a happy Christmas, Hanukkah, and
Kwanzaa.
> 
> Have great time, be safe, and be good!

Iggy McSnurd wrote: 
*grin* And to you...

(But what about us Pagans who celebrate the Yule and
Solstice?)

Me:
Ouch...sorry... Have a good Yule and Solstice! 


Vinnia

http://personals.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Personals
New people, new possibilities. FREE for a limited time.



From catlady at wicca.net  Thu Dec 25 04:13:01 2003
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 04:13:01 -0000
Subject: Goodbye
In-Reply-To: <000001c3ca89$b0773ac0$4e60bf44@Einstein>
Message-ID: <bsdo4d+h6ai@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Iggy McSnurd"
<CoyotesChild at c...> wrote:

> Awww... *@&#$
> The one with the explanations and such was meant to go as a direct 
> post to someone.  *sigh*
> Well, no use trying to undo flubs like that without a Time Turner.
> *whaps self upside the head with a large rubber turnip*

No need to whup your head with a rubber turnip regardless of size
(altho' I'm sure I couldn't help laughing if I watched you do it),
as it was a Good Thing that you posted your explanations to the
whole list -- all the many people who feel the same way vibrated
in resonance.

And it is Not a Good Thing for you to leave our lists. Boo-hoo. 




From CoyotesChild at charter.net  Thu Dec 25 04:40:31 2003
From: CoyotesChild at charter.net (Iggy McSnurd)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 22:40:31 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Goodbye
In-Reply-To: <bsdo4d+h6ai@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000201c3caa1$3d7f1570$4e60bf44@Einstein>

Iggy here:

Well, as I said earlier, I'm just going to lurk for a while and see what
happens.

I must admit that I'm rather surprised at how many people have
expressed, here and through direct replies, that they want me to stay on
the lists.  (Especially considering how few people I would expect to
even really read the lists on Christmas Eve.)  

As for the rest, well... we'll see how things go for when (or how often)
I'll be posting.

Thanks to all who have expressed the wish that I stay here on the lists,
and for those who have also stated that they feel the same way I do.
It's nice to know that I'm not alone.


Iggy McSnurd
(Who will be staying...)





From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Thu Dec 25 07:55:39 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 07:55:39 -0000
Subject: Goodbye - Alternate Suggestion
In-Reply-To: <000201c3caa1$3d7f1570$4e60bf44@Einstein>
Message-ID: <bse55r+trai@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Iggy McSnurd"
<CoyotesChild at c...> wrote:
> Iggy here:
> 
> Well, as I said earlier, I'm just going to lurk for a while and see
> what happens.
> 
> ...edited....
> 
> Thanks to all who have expressed the wish that I stay here on the 
> lists, and for those who have also stated that they feel the same 
> way I do.
>
> It's nice to know that I'm not alone.
> 
> 
> Iggy McSnurd

bboy_mn:

I would also count myself as one of those who would be sad to see you
go. You've shown all the characteristics of someone who makes these
HP4GU groups worthwhile; inteligent, insightful, witty, fun, funny,
knowledgable, etc.... 

It sounds like you are on the email list format for these groups,
might I make a suggestion, switch your preferences to read the group
on the web. Web Read has it's disadvantages, but it does let you skim
through a large block of threaded subject headings pretty fast. Makes
it easy to sort out the post you aren't interested in. Also, Web read
stops the flood of emails coming into your computer. I have always
used the web interface for the very specific reason that I don't like
tons of email flooding my computer.

As to your complaint that you were a 'thread killer', I always thought
that was a good thing. When I make a post and the thread stops, I
always felt like perhaps I made the definitive statement on the subject. 

On the other hand, on those occassion when I really do feel like I
have made the definitive statement on given topic, yet the topic
continues on for many days after, and for the most part ignores what I
said, then I feel a little put off. But, I guess sometimes, people are
more interested in talking about something, than they are in truly
resolving it.

I also agree that some very uninteresting topics seem to ramble on for
many many days without much being said, so I ignore those topics. I'm
generally not interested in most Snape threads, but will jump right in
on anyone who tries to disparage Ron or Neville, and I'm a unyielding
member of PINE (Percy is not Evil). Of course, I never miss a chance
to jump in and repost one of my many pet theories.   

Also, keep in mind that we are dealing with something very dynamic,
there is an ebb and flow to the groups; high cycles and low cycles.
That's would be the expected nature of 10,000 people in a discussion. 

So, I suggest that you try and ride through this low cycle, pick and
choose subjects as they interest you. Then hopefully an up cycle will
soon appear, and you can jump back in again.

Regardless of your choice, please know that you have contributed very
positively to this group; your presents was felt and enjoyed, and very
much will be missed.

Steve/bboy_mn






From CoyotesChild at charter.net  Fri Dec 26 00:02:40 2003
From: CoyotesChild at charter.net (Iggy McSnurd)
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 18:02:40 -0600
Subject: A quick note
Message-ID: <000001c3cb43$979f9050$4e60bf44@Einstein>

Iggy here:

If you have a PS2, or Game Cube, I have 4 words for you:  GET QUIDDITCH
WORLD CUP!	

(My darling wife got it for me for Christmas for my PS2, and I'm
thoroughly addicted to it.  BTW: I won the Hogwarts Cup playing as
Ravenclaw.  My best score is smashing Slytherin at 430 to 10... well, I
had to let them get *one* goal, didn't I?  I'm also playing the US team,
and beat England at 230 to 20, and Germany 290 to 0... *grin*)

Now, to go back to massaging my sore fingers... and beating my third
national team.

Iggy McSnurd

(Who may decide just to go on hiatus from the other HPFGU lists...
After all, I honestly don't think I can be quiet in general chatter for
*too* long... It's just not in me.  *sigh*)







From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk  Fri Dec 26 14:44:58 2003
From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti)
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 14:44:58 -0000
Subject: Happy holiday!
In-Reply-To: <20031224234313.94921.qmail@web41204.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <bshhha+10qhs@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Vinnia 
<vinnia_chrysshallie at y...> wrote:
> Wish you all a happy Christmas, Hanukkah, and Kwanzaa.
> 
> Have great time, be safe, and be good!
> 
> Vinnia
> 
>
Well, here we all are on 26th December and the guns seem at last to 
have fallen silent.  We in the Catering Corps are no longer under 
bombardment.  

So in belated answer to this - while I can never promise to be good, 
I will do my very best to be careful.

Love

June




From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk  Fri Dec 26 14:48:21 2003
From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti)
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 14:48:21 -0000
Subject: Goodbye
In-Reply-To: <000201c3caa1$3d7f1570$4e60bf44@Einstein>
Message-ID: <bshhnl+4c7k@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Iggy McSnurd" 
<CoyotesChild at c...> wrote:
> Iggy here:
> 
> Well, as I said earlier, I'm just going to lurk for a while and 
see what
> happens.
> 
> I must admit that I'm rather surprised at how many people have
> expressed, here and through direct replies, that they want me to 
stay on
> the lists.  (Especially considering how few people I would expect 
to
> even really read the lists on Christmas Eve.)  
> 
> As for the rest, well... we'll see how things go for when (or how 
often)
> I'll be posting.
> 
> Thanks to all who have expressed the wish that I stay here on the 
lists,
> and for those who have also stated that they feel the same way I 
do.
> It's nice to know that I'm not alone.
> 
> 
> Iggy McSnurd
> (Who will be staying...)

Good - it will be a dull party without you.

June




From neonsister at ameritech.net  Fri Dec 26 15:48:31 2003
From: neonsister at ameritech.net (neonsister at ameritech.net)
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 15:48:31 -0000
Subject: Goodbye
In-Reply-To: <bshhnl+4c7k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <bshl8f+rk13@eGroups.com>

Glad you'll be staying, Iggy - who else can I share addictive, time-
wasting links like the Advertising Slogan Generator with? heheh...

Tracy *just realizing she also knows another "iggy" on her X-Files 
mailing list*




From CoyotesChild at charter.net  Fri Dec 26 16:06:24 2003
From: CoyotesChild at charter.net (Iggy McSnurd)
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 10:06:24 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Goodbye
In-Reply-To: <bshl8f+rk13@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000101c3cbca$39580d10$4e60bf44@Einstein>

> 
> Glad you'll be staying, Iggy - who else can I share addictive, time-
> wasting links like the Advertising Slogan Generator with? heheh...
> 
> Tracy *just realizing she also knows another "iggy" on her X-Files
> mailing list*
> 

Iggy here:

Then here's one that should make you absolutely ecstatic...

http://www.dribbleglass.com/


*grins as evilly as you have seen in a long time.*

Iggy McSnurd

(Who, apparently, will be posting as regular on this list, but not the
others.  *yeesh*)







From msbeadsley at yahoo.com  Fri Dec 26 20:50:33 2003
From: msbeadsley at yahoo.com (msbeadsley)
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 20:50:33 -0000
Subject: Church, state and doing what comes naturally
In-Reply-To: <bsd18c+sgmp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <bsi6up+j9c9@eGroups.com>

> > Kathryn Cawte:
> > Well to be fair it's not necessarily ignorance in the case of 
> > trying to force someone to change their mind - depending how 
> > religious you are and which particular brand of any religion you 
> > follow some people strongly believe that anyone not following 
> > that belief is destined to burn in hellfor all eternity (or 
> > whatever your particular religion views as a punishment). <snip>
 
> Laura replies:
> To me, that's a fear reaction.  That kind of stance is adopted by 
> people who feel threatened.  And it often goes hand in hand with 
> extreme social conservatism, hostility to those different than you, 
> anxiety about change and so forth.  The fear comes from having 
> their world view challenged and from living in an environment that 
> they perceive as unstable and unpredictable.  It's a sort of 
> societal Luddite-ism.

But it isn't. Evangelical Christians read scripture to say that 
anyone who isn't converted to believe as they do is damned to eternal 
torment. Those *who have already converted* (the true believers) are 
secure ("fearless") in their salvation, and focus on getting everyone 
else over the hump. (It's especially tricky to deal with family 
members who are convinced that you will not be with them in the 
afterlife unless they convince you to "get saved" (or at least manage 
to drag you in to the church where those who are "filled with the 
Holy Spirit" (IMO, pros who are good with the tricks of the trade--
not to imply they themselves don't believe what they're peddling; I 
think most of them do) can get at you).)

While the doctrine may have *developed* out of fear of "other," now, 
for those who believe, it's more a matter of believing that the world 
*needs* saving, one soul at a time, for the good of each of those 
souls. It is also a way for those who believe they have been saved 
from certain and eternal torment of showing love of God, by bringing 
more souls back to Him.

I hope no one is offended (either for or against). This is the 
religious tradition I was raised in; but personally, while I can 
still be deeply moved by Christian/Evangelical hymns, carols, 
sermons, etc., it strikes me (for many years now) as another noble 
mythology, not so different from Tolkien's. (I've seen RotK twice 
now, and dripped tears through most of it both times.)

> This isn't to say that those people don't sincerely believe in hell 
> and all that stuff.  But I think that a philosophy of that nature 
> originates in fear.  It must not be a very joyful way to live.

But it is. The "belongness" among Evangelicals and the sharing of 
worship often leads to something like an ecstatic mass hysteria. The 
belief that a powerful and perfect being laid down his life so that 
you could be reunited with the supreme powerful perfect being can be 
a real high. If you get good enough at maintaining that belief 
strongly enough, you can walk around most of the time in a state of 
near-euphoria. (And then you have *that* to thank God for as well, 
and "witnessing" seems such a logical way for that to manifest!)

Of course, churches and belief-systems (reference "memes") are self-
perpetuating organisms, and tolerance can sometimes seem contrary to 
their survival mechanism (speaking of *instinct*). And don't we 
humans just delight in being one up on each other: "holier than thou" 
or having something to "lord over" each other? Yet...remember, most 
people just aren't very introspective (and the more faith is 
required, the more introspection is actually discouraged), religious 
or not: to the true believers, their reactions probably seem to them 
to be the hand of God in their lives. (I confess to some envy; it 
felt good to be carried. The beliefs I hold now (as a neo-Pagan) 
require much more from me (including tolerance) in order to achieve 
anything like the same degree of satisfaction.)

Sandy, hoping everyone had/has wonderful gatherings, where applicable




From CoyotesChild at charter.net  Fri Dec 26 21:50:44 2003
From: CoyotesChild at charter.net (Iggy McSnurd)
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 15:50:44 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Speaking of money
In-Reply-To: <bsi6s3+35bm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000001c3cbfa$5031f660$4e60bf44@Einstein>

> From: Catlady 
> G'rrr, 1828 isn't coming up just now. Here's 1913:
> http://machaut.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/WEBSTER.sh?WORD=denarius
> "A Roman silver coin of the value of about fourteen cents; the
> 'penny' of the New Testament; -- so called from being worth
> originally ten of the pieces called as."
> 
> Here is a Bible dictionary:
> http://ebible.org/bible/web/glossary.htm#denarius
> "A denarius is a silver Roman coin worth about a day's wages for an
> agricultural laborer. A denarius was worth 1/25th of a Roman aureus."
> 

Iggy here:

So, by those definitions, Judas sold Jesus out for a month's pay...
which would be about $4.20 in modern American terms.

Kinda makes the Native Americans selling Manhattan Island for $24 worth
of trinkets (as the history books claim) out to be pretty shrewd
investors.  After all, which would *you* rather sell for slim... a hunk
of land?  Or the Son of God?

Iggy McSnurd

(Who, honestly, thought his question *was* posted on the OT group.)







From catlady at wicca.net  Fri Dec 26 22:02:15 2003
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 22:02:15 -0000
Subject: Main List: Speaking of Weights and Measures
Message-ID: <bsib57+lgt1@eGroups.com>

Geoff Bannister wrote in
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/87598 :
> Far more chaotic was the Imperial system of weights and measures...
> weights: ounce/pound/stone/quarter/hundredweight/ton
> lengths: inch/foot/yard/chain/furlong/mile

About two years ago, I had to to look up 'chain', so while I was at
it, I looked up 'cwt' which I had never figured out what it meant, 
and then I looked up 'hundredweight'. 

One-Look's quick definition feature for 'hundredweight':
"# noun:   a British unit of weight equivalent to 112 pounds
 # noun:   a United States unit of weight equivalent to 100 pounds
 # noun:   a unit of weight equal to 100 kilograms"

http://www.unc.edu/~rowlett/units/dictH.html#100wt gives:
"hundredweight (Cwt)
    a traditional unit of weight equal to 1/20 ton. The hundredweight
is the English version of a commercial unit used throughout Europe and
known in other countries as the quintal or the zentner. In general,
this unit is larger than 100 pounds avoirdupois, so to fit the
European market the hundredweight was defined in England as 112 pounds
avoirdupois (about 50.8023 kilograms) rather than 100 pounds. This
definition apparently dates from about the middle of the 1300's. The
British hundredweight was divided into 4 quarters [1] of 28 pounds, 8
stone of 14 pounds, or 16 cloves of 7 pounds each. In the United
States, where the currency was decimalized and there wasn't so much
need to align the unit with the quintal and zentner, the hundredweight
came to equal exactly 100 pounds (about 45.3592 kilograms). The U.S.
hundredweight seems to have been invented by merchants around 1840. To
distinguish the two hundredweight units, the British version is often
called the long hundredweight and the American is called the short
hundredweight or cental. The C in the symbol is of course the Roman
numeral 100."

###

I had to figure out 'chain' because of my job. I was supposed to be
creating a database of all the Equipment Assets owned by the
Maintenance of Way department (now remained Wayside Services Group).
Such a database must record the LOCATION of the stuff, and the system
of 'site - building - floor - room' doesn't work very well for stuff
that is out on, or alongside, the track. The Safety class (required
before being allowed to go near the track) said we measure with mile
markers, in tenth of mile increments, plus so many feet.

The inadequate paper or Excel records that MOW had did nothing with
mile markers. They recorded locations in 'stationing', which is
*supposed* to be the distance from the beginning of the line and is
written in the form 1044 + 32.34 meaning 1044 chains plus 32.34 feet.
Of course my next question was 'How long is a chain?" First Manfred
said it was 100 yards and then he said he didn't know; the definitions
I found at at time were 66 feet (22 yards, which I figured out myself
was 1/10 of a furlong which is 1/8 of a mile -- HOW DID that 1/10
sneak into the traditional system?), 100 feet, and 100 meters.


http://www.unc.edu/~rowlett/units/dictC.html#chain
"chain (ch)
    a unit of distance formerly used by surveyors. The traditional
British surveyor's chain, also called Gunter's chain because it was
introduced by the English mathematician Edmund Gunter (1581-1626) in
1620, is 4 rods long: that's equal to exactly 1/10 furlong, 22 yards,
or 66 feet (20.1168 meters). The traditional length of a cricket pitch
is 1 chain. Gunter's chain has the useful property that an acre is
exactly 10 square chains. The chain was divided into 100 links.
American surveyors sometimes used a longer chain of 100 feet, known as
the engineer's chain or Ramsden's chain. (However, Gunter's chain is
also used in the U.S.; in fact, it is an important unit in the Public
Lands Survey System.)"


I eventually figured out for myself that *our* 'chains' were 100 feet,
by finding a diagram of the Red Line that marked some important
locations in stationing and gave the distance between them in feet. So
WHY didn't they just do the stationing in feet???? 1044 + 32.34 would
tidily be 104,432.3 feet!

Possibly because apparently EACH contractor and sub-contractor who
worked on the projects started their stationing at their own
individual random point and ran it whatever direction they liked, so I
got this map of Blue Line track with startioning running from 187 +
0.00 at one end to 35 +12.44 and then the numbers going up again ...
segments where the stationing of the track and the stationing of the
third rail are from extremely different starting points...

I'm not complaining, I'm bragging of how FUNNY railway people are.




From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com  Sat Dec 27 00:43:21 2003
From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (Phyllis)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 00:43:21 -0000
Subject: Impending Convention Alley Proposal Deadlines
Message-ID: <bsikj9+ur0l@eGroups.com>

Just a reminder that the Convention Alley Call for Papers (CFP) set a
postmark deadline for proposals submitted via regular mail of January
3, 2004. Proposals submitted electronically must be received by
January 17, 2004.

Proposals may take the form of a 500 word abstract or a completed
conference paper (approximately 5-7 pages). Any attachments must be
in Microsoft Word to be readable.

Proposals should be sent via e-mail (preferred) or regular mail in
advance of the submission deadline to the following:

E-Mail submission: convention_alley @yahoo.ca (without the spaces).
Please use "Ottawa 2004 Programming Submission" in the subject line.

Regular mail:
Convention Alley
Box 36058
1318 Wellington Street
Ottawa, ON
K1Y 3A0
Canada

For all of the details, please see the full text of the CFP on the 
Convention Alley LiveJournal
(http://www.livejournal.com/community/conventionalley/)
or in the files section of the HPFGU-Convention list
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Convention/).

We look forward to hearing from you!

~Phyllis Morris
on behalf of the 2004 Convention Alley Planning Committee




From boggles at earthlink.net  Sat Dec 27 01:14:47 2003
From: boggles at earthlink.net (Jennifer Boggess Ramon)
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 19:14:47 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Christmas Eats - was Nosy Chistmas/Holidays
 Question?
In-Reply-To: <bscl39+qa44@eGroups.com>
References: <bscl39+qa44@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <p05210600bc128b4b6d1d@[192.168.1.100]>

At 6:15 PM +0000 12/24/03, junediamanti wrote:
>--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, ~Ivy~ <desiivy at y...> wrote:
>>
>
>That sounds fantastic!  Is there a spare seat? <g>
>
>We will be having a very large chicken (free range - taste the
>difference, and there aren't that many of us) because I find it very
>hard to source a turkey that is humanely reared and doesn't cost
>roughly the price of a three-bedroomed suburban house.

There's a gourmet/natural foods market here in Houston that carries 
semi-humanely-reared turkeys at somewhat less exorbitant prices.  I 
rather like theirs, although I ended up buying a turkey breast 
elsewhere because they were *!crowded!* on Christmas Eve.

The rest of our meal was green peas (from frozen - even here, you 
can't get fresh this time of year), rutabaga, and mashed potatoes.

The fun part was the huge platter of Yule Cookies - things that are 
traditional for my families of birth and choice this time of year: 
refrigerator sugar cookies with a bit of spice, date nut balls, 
Danish wedding cookies, and cherry winks.  (There's also a 
grasshopper-brownie bar that my grandmother used to do, which I don't 
have the recipe for; I tried something that looked similar from a 
recipe on Hershey's website [and you would think they would know, 
wouldn't you?], and it turned into a rock-hard mess, so I'm going to 
have to see if I can get my mother to get the recipe for me.)

We do Movie Night at our place every Thursday, and the Spouse decided 
that last night would be no exception, so he showed _Three 
Businessmen_.  (If you haven't seen it, it's worth watching once to 
see why it's an appropriate Xmas movie.)

-- 

  - Boggles, aka J. C. B. Ramon			boggles(at)earthlink.net
"It is not knowledge, but the act of learning, not possession but the 
act of getting there, which grants the greatest enjoyment. "
	- Gauss, in a Letter to Bolyai, 1808.



From s_ings at yahoo.com  Sat Dec 27 02:31:02 2003
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 21:31:02 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Happy Birthday, Madhuri!
Message-ID: <20031227023102.53207.qmail@web41113.mail.yahoo.com>

*struggles with a very large cake, managing at last to
set it carefully on the side table, and sets to
blowing up the last of the balloons*

Don't go away, we still have a birthday to celebrate
today!

Today's birthday honouree is Madhuri. Birthday owls
can be sent care of this list or directly to:
phallicfreud at hotmail.com

I hope your day has been wonderful and brought
everything you hoped for.

Happy Birthday, Madhuri!

Sheryll the Birthday Elf

=====
http://www.livejournal.com/community/conventionalley/

______________________________________________________________________ 
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca



From dradamsapple at yahoo.com  Sat Dec 27 02:54:49 2003
From: dradamsapple at yahoo.com (dradamsapple)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 02:54:49 -0000
Subject: Goodbye
In-Reply-To: <000101c3cbca$39580d10$4e60bf44@Einstein>
Message-ID: <bsis9p+1avc@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Iggy McSnurd" 
<CoyotesChild at c...> wrote:
> > 
> > Glad you'll be staying, Iggy - who else can I share addictive, 
time-
> > wasting links like the Advertising Slogan Generator with? heheh...
> > 
> > Tracy *just realizing she also knows another "iggy" on her X-Files
> > mailing list*
> > 
> 
> Iggy here:
> 
> Then here's one that should make you absolutely ecstatic...
> 
> http://www.dribbleglass.com/
> 
> 
> *grins as evilly as you have seen in a long time.*


Oh Iggy!
That site is sooo much fun!  I've just spent the past hour lurking 
through it! 
Thanks for sharing, and glad you've decided to hang on to us a bit.
I know I haven't posted in a while, but I too, share some of your 
initial sentiments.  But you've gotten some great feedback so I'm 
happy that you're staying.

Anna . . . (who also needs to go into lurker mode fairly often)


> 
> Iggy McSnurd
> 
> (Who, apparently, will be posting as regular on this list, but not 
the
> others.  *yeesh*)




From drednort at alphalink.com.au  Sat Dec 27 03:29:08 2003
From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 14:29:08 +1100
Subject: Destroying the past
Message-ID: <3FED9734.28001.16D9D61@localhost>

I went for a walk today - a nice long walk, through some of the 
area I grew up in. I felt myself drawn to a memorial to a girl I 
knew who was murdered a little over ten years ago. And seeing I was 
then in that area, I decided to walk past the school she attended - 
which was the same school I attended in 1987 when I was 12 years 
old and in 'Year 7' of school. I generally refer to it as the 
school from hell - I went in a fairly outgoing and happy child - 
and came out 10 months later physically and emotionally scarred, 
nursing a deep, deep depression, and ready to kill myself rather 
than go back there.

It's not a place I have exactly wanted to revisit. But I decided to 
take a look at it.

The school's spread out along a fairly long road - it's a very 
narrow school, but a rather long one - so I had quite a long walk 
alongside it. It hadn't changed much from what I could see.

I approached it from what was the 'senior school' end when I was 
there and had to walk down it's entire length before I got to the 
junior school area which was where I suffered so much abuse and 
pain. As I passed the old Year 8 block (which I only ever entered 
for some elective subjects) I felt my heart beginning to pound, I 
actually began to sweat. Feelings of pain began to resurface just 
be being in close proximity to the places where I was hurt so much. 
I almost turned back - but I approached the old 'Year 7' block 
anyway.

And it wasn't there. The buildings where I was beaten up every day, 
while teachers watched - where teachers labelled me as mentally 
retarded because I didn't fit their moulds, where I was left 
unconscious on the toilet floors - and where they decided to punish 
me for that... was gone. They'd demolished it. And replaced it with 
tennis courts.

That felt SO good (well, apart from the realisation that now I 
could never fulfill my dream of burning it to the ground personally 
(yes, I'm kidding - but I wasn't when that was a dream). It 
exorcised some - not all, not most, but some - of the demons I've 
been carrying around for the last 16 years.

I just had to share those feelings.


Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought
Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html
(ISTJ)       | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 
"You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one
thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the 
facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be 
uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that 
need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil
Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia




From CoyotesChild at charter.net  Sat Dec 27 03:39:59 2003
From: CoyotesChild at charter.net (Iggy McSnurd)
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 21:39:59 -0600
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Speaking of money
In-Reply-To: <bsih4k+kecf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000001c3cc2b$1d759110$4e60bf44@Einstein>

> Pip!Squeak:
> 
> Scottish paper notes are strictly speaking not legal tender in
> either Scotland, England or Wales, but Scottish law regards them
> as 'money'. They do turn up in England, and are generally accepted
> (their value is exactly equivalent to the English pound).
> 
 
> English currency is also generally accepted in Scotland - again,
> it's not actually legal tender there.
> 
> Other than the one pound note, Scottish currency has the same notes
> and coins as English currency. However, the designs on the
> notes/coins tends to be a little different.
> 

Iggy here:

Ok, so that seems to be much like how Canadian pennies, dimes, and
quarters aren't strictly legal here in the US as well, but most people
will still take them without quibbling too much about them.  (Vending
machines won't take them, and since pennies are pretty much useless in
either place, they're accepted as normal.  The only one's you're likely
to get questions about at all are the quarters, but if you put a few of
them in a roll of coins, or a stack of quarters, it's usually not a
problem.  Heck, most people don't even really notice them unless you try
to use one by itself.)

Iggy McSnurd







From CoyotesChild at charter.net  Sat Dec 27 15:39:28 2003
From: CoyotesChild at charter.net (Iggy McSnurd)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 09:39:28 -0600
Subject: An interesting bit of trivia
Message-ID: <000001c3cc8f$a0a4a440$4e60bf44@Einstein>

Iggy here:

Here's a bit of trivia that may make you think.

Jimmy Hoffa's middle name was Riddle.



(Let's see... Jimmy Hoffa was famous for leading one of the most corrupt
unions in the US and disappeared mysteriously... Tom Riddle led one of
the most corrupt groups of wizards in the WW, as LV, before disappearing
mysteriously.  LV has reappeared and leads the Death Eaters once
again... Will Jimmy Riddle Hoffa be back to lead the Teamsters again.)

Iggy McSnurd







From kcawte at ntlworld.com  Sun Dec 28 00:02:51 2003
From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 16:02:51 -0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] An interesting bit of trivia
References: <000001c3cc8f$a0a4a440$4e60bf44@Einstein>
Message-ID: <009f01c3ccd5$f04fae40$a6706751@kathryn>

Iggy McSnurd

>
> (Let's see... Jimmy Hoffa was famous for leading one of the most corrupt
> unions in the US and disappeared mysteriously... Tom Riddle led one of
> the most corrupt groups of wizards in the WW, as LV, before disappearing
> mysteriously.  LV has reappeared and leads the Death Eaters once
> again... Will Jimmy Riddle Hoffa be back to lead the Teamsters again.)
>
K

lmao - but probably not for the reasons you intended.

My mind may well currently be residing in the gutter - but the fact that you
can type Jimmy Riddle (even adding Hoffa on the end) with a straight face
amuses me, given it's other meaning.

K




From CoyotesChild at charter.net  Sat Dec 27 16:19:34 2003
From: CoyotesChild at charter.net (Iggy McSnurd)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 10:19:34 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] An interesting bit of trivia
In-Reply-To: <009f01c3ccd5$f04fae40$a6706751@kathryn>
Message-ID: <000101c3cc95$3a7c6490$4e60bf44@Einstein>

> K
> 
> lmao - but probably not for the reasons you intended.
> 
> My mind may well currently be residing in the gutter - but the fact
that
> you
> can type Jimmy Riddle (even adding Hoffa on the end) with a straight
face
> amuses me, given it's other meaning.
> 
> K
> 

Iggy here:

Hmmm.... Judging from your reaction, where you live it's similar to John
Thomas?  (Jimmy Riddle doesn't mean anything here in the US aside from
possibly being a name...)

Iggy McSnurd







From Mhochberg at aol.com  Sat Dec 27 16:30:32 2003
From: Mhochberg at aol.com (Mhochberg at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 11:30:32 EST
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Digest Number 1349
Message-ID: <18e.240e550b.2d1f0da8@aol.com>

In a message dated 12/25/2003 9:01:58 AM Pacific Standard Time, 
HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com writes:
Iggy McSnurd" <CoyotesChild at charter.net>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From kcawte at ntlworld.com  Sun Dec 28 01:01:00 2003
From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 17:01:00 -0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] An interesting bit of trivia
References: <000101c3cc95$3a7c6490$4e60bf44@Einstein>
Message-ID: <000e01c3ccde$0f6d1940$a6706751@kathryn>


> Iggy here:
>
> Hmmm.... Judging from your reaction, where you live it's similar to John
> Thomas?  (Jimmy Riddle doesn't mean anything here in the US aside from
> possibly being a name...)
>

K

*kicks self for not explaining the meaning* Sorry. It's more rhyming slang.
For urination in this particular case. Used by men only afaik, usually used
as "I'm just going for a Jimmy".

As someone pointed out on another list I'm on - not all Brits speak in
rhyming slang (it was one of her pet hates in fanfic) *but* most people
would probably understand the really common ones - and human nature being
what it is I imagine the ones that would be found to be most memorable would
be the slightly risqu or rude ones :)

Sorry I don't *usually* throw out comments like that and not explain unless
I'm deliberately trying to be obtuse but my brain went on holiday for
Christmas - too many people, not enough sleep.

Plus *other* irritations - wouldn't you think living in a block of flats
with an intercom would excuse me from Mormons/Jehovah's Witnesses etc? (Note
I have nothing against either religion normally but when they're on my
doorstep trying to talk about Jesus then I have a problem with them -
because they're annoying. I don't like being doorstepped by politicians
either, but will go and talk if they are out somewhere leafleting - so it's
nothing personal. I just don't want people preaching at me (in any sense) in
my own home.) In my experience Mormons are better than JW - because they
accept no a lot easier, but maybe that's just the particular JWs we have
round here. Having said that, boy can they get stuff done when they want -
the local branch built themselves a Kingdom Hall in three days - from bare
ground to fully completed and *landscaped* building.

K




From dudemom_2000 at yahoo.com  Sat Dec 27 17:24:00 2003
From: dudemom_2000 at yahoo.com (dudemom_2000)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 17:24:00 -0000
Subject: Destroying the past
In-Reply-To: <3FED9734.28001.16D9D61@localhost>
Message-ID: <bskf7g+maea@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Shaun Hately" 
<drednort at a...> wrote:
> I went for a walk today - a nice long walk, through some of the 
> area I grew up in. I felt myself drawn to a memorial to a girl I 
> knew who was murdered a little over ten years ago. And seeing I was
> then in that area, I decided to walk past the school she attended -
> which was the same school I attended in 1987 when I was 12 years 
> old and in 'Year 7' of school. I generally refer to it as the 
> school from hell - I went in a fairly outgoing and happy child - 
> and came out 10 months later physically and emotionally scarred, 
> nursing a deep, deep depression, and ready to kill myself rather 
> than go back there.
> 
> It's not a place I have exactly wanted to revisit. But I decided to
> take a look at it.
> 
> The school's spread out along a fairly long road - it's a very 
> narrow school, but a rather long one - so I had quite a long walk 
> alongside it. It hadn't changed much from what I could see.
> 
> I approached it from what was the 'senior school' end when I was 
> there and had to walk down it's entire length before I got to the 
> junior school area which was where I suffered so much abuse and 
> pain. As I passed the old Year 8 block (which I only ever entered 
> for some elective subjects) I felt my heart beginning to pound, I 
> actually began to sweat. Feelings of pain began to resurface just 
> be being in close proximity to the places where I was hurt so 
> much. I almost turned back - but I approached the old 'Year 7'    
> block anyway.
> 
> And it wasn't there. The buildings where I was beaten up every 
day, while teachers watched - where teachers labelled me as mentally 
> retarded because I didn't fit their moulds, where I was left 
> unconscious on the toilet floors - and where they decided to 
punish me for that... was gone. They'd demolished it. And replaced 
it with tennis courts.
> 
> That felt SO good (well, apart from the realisation that now I 
> could never fulfill my dream of burning it to the ground 
personally (yes, I'm kidding - but I wasn't when that was a dream). 
It exorcised some - not all, not most, but some - of the demons I've 
> been carrying around for the last 16 years.
> 
> I just had to share those feelings.
> 
> 
> Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought
> Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html
> (ISTJ)       | drednort at a... | ICQ: 6898200 
> "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one
> thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the 
> facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be 
> uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that 
> need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil
> Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia

*****\(@@)/*****

As Roland the Gunslinger (Steven King) says: "The world has moved 
on..." Even if the school wasn't torn down, time eventually helps us 
to deal with things or at least softens them a bit. Even though I 
haven't forgotten hurtful things that have happened to me, they have 
lost their power to harm me further. To see the symbol of such awful 
acts destroyed is a powerful validation of your suvival and managing 
to rise above it! Best Wishes.

Dudemom_2000

*****\(@@)/*****





From CoyotesChild at charter.net  Sat Dec 27 17:41:22 2003
From: CoyotesChild at charter.net (Iggy McSnurd)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 11:41:22 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] An interesting bit of trivia
In-Reply-To: <000e01c3ccde$0f6d1940$a6706751@kathryn>
Message-ID: <000401c3cca0$a4c54050$4e60bf44@Einstein>

> 
> K
> 
> *kicks self for not explaining the meaning* Sorry. It's more rhyming
> slang.
> For urination in this particular case. Used by men only afaik, usually
> used
> as "I'm just going for a Jimmy".
> 

Iggy here:

Ahhh... Ok.  Cockney rhyming slang... Gotcha.  (I got a crash course in
the basic concepts of it watching Austin Powers - Goldmember.  Mike
Meyers also explains it more at length in one of the special features on
the DVD, and when he did "Inside the Actor's Studio.")

Iggy McSnurd

(who still doesn't quite get how the "Jimmy Riddle" rhyme works, unlike
"apples and pears," but he'll take your word for it...)






From lynntownsend100 at yahoo.com  Sat Dec 27 18:40:52 2003
From: lynntownsend100 at yahoo.com (Lynn)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 10:40:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Fwd: [HP_Paradise] Article:  One Big Dysfunctional Weasley Family?
Message-ID: <20031227184052.79764.qmail@web41412.mail.yahoo.com>



Ebony <selah_1977 at yahoo.com> wrote:To: HP_Paradise at yahoogroups.com
From: "Ebony" 
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 01:16:11 -0000
Subject: [HP_Paradise] Article: One Big Dysfunctional Weasley Family?

Thanks to Kia, who pointed me in the direction of this article 
recently:

http://www.redhen-publications.com/Weasleys.html

I know we don't usually allow OT discussion here, but this article 
reminded me of some of the objectives I tried to accomplish in the 
Paradise stories regarding the Weasleys, although I do not agree with 
all of the author's conclusions.  So I wanted to share.  It's just 
something to read as you wait for the next installment in Viola's 
Percy story.

--Ebony



<br>To talk about canon, check out the Bookmarks section of visit <a href="http://www.fictionalley.org/fictionalleypark">FictionAlley</a>'s canon forums.

<a href="http://www.fictionalley.org/fictionalleypark">FictionAlley</a>'s canon forums.




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Harry Potter Fandom...it's not just a philosophy...it's a way of life...
-"Nancy Button"   http://www.nancybuttons.com
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-Jason Issacs on being Lucius Malfoy

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From Ali at zymurgy.org  Sat Dec 27 19:46:44 2003
From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 19:46:44 -0000
Subject: An interesting bit of trivia
In-Reply-To: <000401c3cca0$a4c54050$4e60bf44@Einstein>
Message-ID: <bsknj4+daaj@eGroups.com>

Iggy wrote:-
 
> (who still doesn't quite get how the "Jimmy Riddle" rhyme works, 
unlike "apples and pears," but he'll take your word for it...)

Err, I can't quite believe I'm responding to this, but I love 
rhyming slang, so here goes:

Jimmy Riddle = tiddle

One of my favourite phrases, is "use your loaf". Loaf is short for 
loaf of bread = head.

I come from East London and was aware of a lot of rhyming slang as a 
child, but I've still never actually heard anyone talking 
about "Apples and Pears", unless they're *trying* to talk in rhyming 
slang.

Ali






From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com  Sat Dec 27 20:00:52 2003
From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 20:00:52 -0000
Subject: Article:  One Big Dysfunctional Weasley Family? (LONG)
In-Reply-To: <20031227184052.79764.qmail@web41412.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <bskodk+n7io@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Lynn <lynntownsend100 at y...> 
wrote:
  
> Thanks to Kia, who pointed me in the direction of this article 
> recently:
> 
> http://www.redhen-publications.com/Weasleys.html
  
Well, I suppose it COULD be a thought-provoking article, but it does 
have a number of flaws concerning the canon.  First of all, the 
author claims, "Somehow the fans cannot bring themselves to accept 
the possibility that there is a down side to the Gryffindor 
character - despite ample examples to the contrary (Lockhart, Bagman 
and Pettigrew to begin with)."

There is no evidence in canon that any of the characters mentioned 
were in Gryffindor.  While it is very LIKELY that Pettigrew was, as 
part of the circle of friends that also included Sirius, Remus and 
James (whom we know to be a Gryffindor), he is alone in that 
regard.  There isn't even an inkling in the books that Lockhart and 
Bagman might be Gryffindors.  Their characters, clever and wily, but 
morally flawed, would more easily suggest Ravenclaw or Slytherin.  
So the assertion that there is an ample supply of flawed Gryffindor 
characters setting a precedent for Percy's character is itself based 
upon non-existent material. (The author could have been more 
convincing citing James Potter and Sirius Black.)

The author goes on to say, "First; it offers clear support to the 
view that the Hat sends children into the House that most closely 
matches the child's aspirations rather than the one that is 
necessarily the closest match to his potential personality."

We also do not have ample evidence for this, especially since the 
author says right after, "Percy clearly wants to be admired for the 
fine, virtuous, upstanding young man that he is so confident he 
is."  It's a theory, but that's all it is.  We have no way of 
knowing why Percy was sorted into Gryffindor (although I have my 
suspicions).  The only two characters that we know of who seem to 
have had some impact on where they were sorted are Harry and 
Hermione; in the first book we learned that the hat thought 
Slytherin would help him to be great, but the fact that he didn't 
want to be in Slytherin meant he was sorted into a different house.  
He never asked for Gryffindor.  His only expressed "aspiration" at 
the time was to NOT be a Slytherin.  Hermione was considered for 
Ravenclaw, we learned in OotP, but was put in Gryffindor.  This also 
seems to run counter to the "aspiration" assertion that the author 
of the article makes.

The author claims that the problems in the family aren't just 
defined by Percy, but that assumes that you think Percy is a problem 
in the first place.  It seemed abundantly clear to me that Percy was 
doing everything he could in OotP to get information out of the 
Ministry to either his family (his letter to Ron in the middle of 
the night) or to the wizarding populace (his quotes in the Prophet) 
on his own terms, while carefully not alarming his boss or alerting 
him to Percy's being a spy.  Molly's and Arthur's comments about him 
are extremely unconvincing; what is really revealing is that Molly 
still fears Percy dying (his was another dead body she saw while 
fighting the boggart) which would be more logical if he was involved 
in dangerous covert work.  Percy was the perfect person to 
infiltrate the top Ministry offices and I wouldn't be surprised if 
Dumbledore himself had asked his former Head Boy to do this.

So the author builds a house on sand, asserting that Gryffindors who 
probably weren't Gryffindors (probably only one out of three, 
anyway) set the precedent, claiming that Percy is a problem when he 
is most likely a spy, and then going on to criticize the twins.  The 
twins already showed how useful their inventions could be to fight 
evil in OotP, and I fully expect their ingenuity to help the fight 
against Voldemort outside the castle walls in the sixth book.  In 
the long run, like Percy's so-called ambition, I think the twins' 
supposed avarice will prove to be a red-herring.  I think they're 
willing to do what's necessary to fight the good fight and will not 
worry overmuch about monetary gain while doing so.

Ron is admittedly discontented, but as his confidence improves so 
does his general demeanor.  Basically, the author seems to be 
holding against him that he's a typical fifteen-year-old, and the 
same goes for Ginny, whose character was remarkable and finally 
fully formed in OotP.

I fail to see the evidence for the dynamics of the family having 
gone "seriously wrong" as the author asserts (as I said, with very 
flawed underpinnings).  There is also no evidence in canon 
that "Arthur stopped living up to Molly's expectations."  Molly 
sternly reprimands the Ron when he complains about old robes, 
defending her husband's career choices, and she certainly stands by 
him when he's in St. Mungo's.  The idea that his love of Muggle 
technology came between the two of them is just completely 
unsubstantiated.  Molly seems quite proud that the family is not 
anti-Muggle.  I just don't know what Molly Weasley this person has 
been reading, but it doesn't seem to be the one from JKR's books.

While the assertion that Molly "wears the pants in the family" (odd, 
when they really tend to wear robes) is something that can be seen 
in canon, the author presents this as a BAD thing, rather than just 
the way it is with the Weasleys (and with many families, for that 
matter).  The upshot of this seems to be that Arthur has a deep 
affection for his wife and a resounding respect for her judgment.  
How this makes the family "dysfunctional" is a mystery to me.  Plus, 
there are times that Molly defers to him, making this seem far more 
like an equal partnership than the author suggests.

While the assertion is also made that Molly, Percy and the twins are 
bullies (usually I see the twins called bullies, which is probably 
closer to the mark), this again is unsubstantiated by canon.  
They're opinionated, certainly, and often their opinions conflict.  
The twins, closest to being bullies, are still not even close to the 
bully that was Harry's own father, James Potter, now that we know a 
little more about him, nor his beloved godfather, Sirius Black.  By 
comparison, their pranks are cheerful and harmless, rather than 
scarring someone emotionally for life.  (Severus Snape.)

It is mentioned that in GoF, both Molly and Percy are "led up the 
garden path by their absolute confidence that the people in charge 
are to be trusted and obeyed."  While this is true, they are not the 
only ones in the series who are guilty of this, and they have 
certainly seen the error of their ways now.  (Since, as I said 
early, it seems clear that in OotP Percy is spying on those very 
authority figures.)  The perfect Hermione herself was utterly 
blinded to Lockhart's flaws early in CoS, and many, many characters 
in OotP are depicted as hopefully clinging to the idea that those in 
charge can be trusted, as they clutch at straws in a newly uncertain 
wizarding world.  Harry himself trusted the ersatz Moody utterly 
until they were alone together in GoF and young Crouch revealed his 
true identity and his plans for Harry.  This danger (of trusting 
authority too much) is a recurring theme in the series, and before 
the end we are likely to see many, many characters fall prey to this.

The author claims, "And, so far, we have seen nothing in Percy's 
behavior which would not be consistent with deliberately distancing 
himself from his family, for their own as well as his mission's 
protection," going on to mention Percy's "over-the-top pompous 
letter to Ron congratulating him on his Prefect's appointment" in 
which he also advises him "to distance himself from Harry Potter."  
Actually, that very letter is the strongest thing in OotP, other 
than the article that appears in the Prophet the next day, to 
support the idea that Percy is a spy.  That letter very cleverly 
communicated information to Ron and his friends that the rest of the 
world did not have until the Prophet came out the next day, and it 
was sent in the middle of the night, to avoid the problem of the owl 
being intercepted (which Percy clearly knew was a danger).  The 
letter was also clearly calculated to make Ron react strongly, 
vowing that he would never abandon Harry, showing that Percy knows 
his reverse psychology very well.  Percy's reaction in Dumbledore's 
office is also cited as evidence that he can't be a spy, but if he 
hadn't reacted that way, he would have blown his cover.  It is only 
evidence that he is a GOOD spy, not a gleeful villain.

Then the author, inexplicably, goes off on a tangent about how the 
age gap between Charlie and Percy "doesn't work" for the author, 
citing Oliver Wood's hero-worship of Charlie, which the author 
somehow thinks means that they must have been in school 
simultaneously.  This is a very strange assumption to make and has 
nothing to do with whether the family is dysfunctional.  Ginny's 
comment about wanting to go to Hogwarts ever since Bill had gone 
always struck me as a Flint; JKR is not from a large family (I am) 
and probably just did not think about the fact that Ginny wasn't 
even born when Bill started school.  Perhaps someday it will be 
changed to say, "ever since Percy went," which would make more 
sense.  

The author then ends with a discussion of Ogg, Hagrid and Lucius 
Malfoy, which also has nothing to do with the original premise of 
the essay.  It never comes back around to the thesis, which was not 
supported by any canon evidence anyway, so perhaps this was the 
author's way of diverting the reader from that fact.  I've read far 
better analyses of the Potter books in Fiction Alley Park, frankly.  
Trust me, you won't be missing anything if you skip this too-long, 
rambling and poorly constructed and argued essay.

--Barb

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent
http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb




From mphunt at sprintmail.com  Sat Dec 27 21:16:25 2003
From: mphunt at sprintmail.com (Tracy Hunt)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 21:16:25 -0000
Subject: Bad Timing...was:Re: Goodbye
In-Reply-To: <000201c3caa1$3d7f1570$4e60bf44@Einstein>
Message-ID: <bsksr9+rtnf@eGroups.com>

<snip Iggy's farewell and many well wishes and requests for him to 
stay>

"Iggy McSnurd"wrote:
> Iggy here:
> 
> Well, as I said earlier, I'm just going to lurk for a while and see 
what
> happens.


now Tcy:

As usual....I arrived late to the party.  I took a small break from 
the 'puter for the holidays...and I return to find I almost missed 
your fond farewell.  

Iggy, I'm sorry to hear you almost left - but glad to see all of the 
posters that expressed what I, too felt...you'd be missed.  Also glad 
to hear you'll be around for a while longer.

I don't make the weekly chats each Sunday - but most times.  They can 
be pretty good fun.  You should try them sometime...we're always up 
for a good topic to discuss, we're not easily offended and we love to 
laugh.

Tcy
(who's glad to Iggy stay around - I think he may actually be more 
sadistic than I am)




From CoyotesChild at charter.net  Sat Dec 27 21:59:05 2003
From: CoyotesChild at charter.net (Iggy McSnurd)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 15:59:05 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Bad Timing...was:Re: Goodbye
In-Reply-To: <bsksr9+rtnf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000001c3ccc4$a8d87440$4e60bf44@Einstein>

> Tcy
> (who's glad to Iggy stay around - I think he may actually be more
> sadistic than I am)
> 

Iggy here:

Ok... who told on me?  

If I find out who did, I'll have to torture them slowly.  Personally, I
find that forcing someone to complete a marathon while wearing a mink
body suit does wonders as a torture.  Oh, and did I mention that the fur
goes on the *inside*?  (Just think about it, I'm sure you'll understand
in time... especially if, man or woman, they're forced to run the whole
26 miles.  With appropriate breaks for recovery, as I see fit, of
course...)

*throws his head back and cackles insanely*

Oh... yes... *ahem*... what was I saying?


Iggy McSnurd







From cwood at tattersallpub.com  Sun Dec 28 00:55:34 2003
From: cwood at tattersallpub.com (mstattersall)
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 00:55:34 -0000
Subject: A quick note
In-Reply-To: <000001c3cb43$979f9050$4e60bf44@Einstein>
Message-ID: <bsl9m6+uom2@eGroups.com>

> Iggy here:
> 
> If you have a PS2, or Game Cube, I have 4 words for you:  GET 
QUIDDITCH WORLD CUP!	

I got it too! It's going to be fun once I learn how to fly the broom. 
(I am a geezer, unused to video games, but I just HAD to have it!) 
I'm looking for a pair of training sweeps...
 
> (Who may decide just to go on hiatus from the other HPFGU lists...
> After all, I honestly don't think I can be quiet in general chatter 
for
> *too* long... It's just not in me.  *sigh*)

I'm SO glad you'll stay on this group. You and June are my favorite 
correspondents. Viva Iggy!

Ms. Tattersall





From CoyotesChild at charter.net  Sun Dec 28 01:35:40 2003
From: CoyotesChild at charter.net (Iggy McSnurd)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 19:35:40 -0600
Subject: Quidditch World Cup Video Game (was -  Re: A quick note)
In-Reply-To: <bsl9m6+uom2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000501c3cce2$e9de96e0$4e60bf44@Einstein>

> > Iggy here:
> >
> > If you have a PS2, or Game Cube, I have 4 words for you:  GET
> QUIDDITCH WORLD CUP!
> 

> Ms. Tattersall
>
> I got it too! It's going to be fun once I learn how to fly the broom.
> (I am a geezer, unused to video games, but I just HAD to have it!)
> I'm looking for a pair of training sweeps...

Iggy here:

*chuckle* Select "Hogwarts" on the intro menu and select a house team.
>From there, you can do training sessions.  The training is the same for
each house, and you can repeat the sessions... but if you want to
collect all the trading cards, you'll need to beat the records for each
different house team.

As for my progress... well...

I've already led both Ravenclaw and Gryffindor to the Hogwarts House
Cup...

And as of today, the US team has won the Quidditch World Cup on the
"Nimbus 2000" skill level, beating the Bulgarian Team in the final
match.  (There are 18 matches in the World Cup contest.)  They keep a
tally of the total points earned by all the teams, and that's what
determines who wins the cup.  

*grin* The US team was 2100 total points ahead of the 2nd place team...
Bulgaria.

Apparently I was born to be a Chaser.  At least, on the video game...
especially since the only time any team scored more than 40 points
against me at all, was when they caught the Snitch.  Bulgaria was the
only one to do that, having Victor Crum (who is next to impossible to
beat and caught the Snitch every time), and I still won both times I
played them.  The first was 170 to 160, and the second (and 18th match
in the series) was 390 to 180.

It's definitely got replay value, since there's the 4 house teams,
differing levels of house and team records for each, and 9 different
teams to play at the World Cup level.  Not to mention all the things you
unlock, like special moves and such, by fulfilling special conditions or
collecting cards.

Iggy gives it 4.5 out of 5 stars.  (the .5pt downgrade is because there
are times when the sound quality is a little low... but it's still
decent as a rule.)

BTW: Did anyone else get the game for Christmas?

> 
> Ms. Tattersall
>
> I'm SO glad you'll stay on this group. You and June are my favorite
> correspondents. Viva Iggy!

Iggy here:

Thanks.  *grin*


Iggy McSnurd







From miss_megan at bigpond.com  Sun Dec 28 12:07:53 2003
From: miss_megan at bigpond.com (storm)
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 23:07:53 +1100
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Destroying the past
In-Reply-To: <1072541945.687.1572.m12@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <CGEKJJCJGOLNJLCPJCJJGENMCHAA.miss_megan@bigpond.com>

Message: 8
   Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 14:29:08 +1100
   From: "Shaun Hately" <drednort at alphalink.com.au>
Subject: Destroying the past

I went for a walk today - a nice long walk, through some of the
area I grew up in. I felt myself drawn to a memorial to a girl I
knew who was murdered a little over ten years ago. And seeing I was
then in that area, I decided to walk past the school she attended -
which was the same school I attended in 1987 when I was 12 years
old and in 'Year 7' of school. I generally refer to it as the
school from hell  <snip>

Well done Shaun! revisiting the site of past injuries requires a special
kind of braveness. I'm glad this visit has such a good outcome for you. I
wish I could also hope that such experiences would never happen to another
child .. Well I can hope.

storm *waves* to the other rehabbers on the list, currently in care, 3 grey
headed flying foxes (10 weeks, 7 weeks and 6 weeks), 2 brushtail possums and
never enough rainbow lorikeets plus the usual array of domestics
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.555 / Virus Database: 347 - Release Date: 23/12/2003




From CoyotesChild at charter.net  Sun Dec 28 15:05:31 2003
From: CoyotesChild at charter.net (Iggy McSnurd)
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 09:05:31 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Destroying the past
In-Reply-To: <CGEKJJCJGOLNJLCPJCJJGENMCHAA.miss_megan@bigpond.com>
Message-ID: <000001c3cd54$0cc4b1f0$4e60bf44@Einstein>

>    From: "Shaun Hately" 
> 
> I went for a walk today - a nice long walk, through some of the
> area I grew up in. I felt myself drawn to a memorial to a girl I
> knew who was murdered a little over ten years ago. And seeing I was
> then in that area, I decided to walk past the school she attended -
> which was the same school I attended in 1987 when I was 12 years
> old and in 'Year 7' of school. I generally refer to it as the
> school from hell  <snip>
> 

Iggy here:

I can relate, Shaun.  I tend to think of it as "healing" rather than
"destroying," since you need to hold on to the knowledge of those
experiences and how they made you feel, and heal the pain itself.
That's something I'm still trying to do at age 33.

Since I rarely went to the same school for more than a year or two, I
can't hear that the school I went to is being torn down.  Of course, I
have occasionally gone by my middle school (gr 7 & 8) and high school to
say hello to a teacher or two who treated me kindly.  If you do that, it
might heal some of the bad memories by consciously trying to reinforce
the good ones.

Like you, I was one of those guys everyone picked on.  (I still have a
bluish scar on my left bicep where someone stabbed me in the arm with a
pencil for no real reason, and I now have a... well, I prefer to call it
a "dimple" rather than a "dent..." on the end of my nose from being
punched in the face so often.)  For me, it was one of three things that
got me treated so hideously in school:  "Let's pick on the geek.", "I'll
make a name for myself by beating up on the big guy," or "Hey, everyone
else is doing it, so it must be ok."

The occasional teacher has even gotten in on the act.  (My initials are
"R.M." and one teacher, in the middle of class one day, said that it was
too bad my initials weren't B.M. so that they could nickname me "bowel
movement."  One of the other kids in the class said "What about 'rectal
movement?" and she gave him an extra credit point for saying something
clever.)

Throughout my life, I have always told myself and others that, while I
may not have liked what a lot of people have done to me, I was forgiving
enough to not actually hate anyone.  (I even eventually forgave, and
made peace with, the old friend who stuck a gun in my face back in high
school.  He was in the middle of a psychotic episode, and the gun was
unloaded... but I didn't know either at the time.  The episode made
things easier to forgive with him, since I know he wasn't in control of
himself at the time and he forced me out of the house rather than
pulling the trigger.  On the other hand, I still have a pretty bad anger
reaction to anyone even pointing a toy gun at me.)

Recently, however, I've had to come to grips with the fact that there
are people out there I *do* hate, and that's very hard for me.  Hate is
a very ugly emotion, and can get out of control, but I also have to
understand that it's there in everyone, and if you deny that it's there,
it can literally eat you up like a festering wound.  

I hate the friend who was like a brother to me for five years, and
eventually betrayed me and his GF (who was a friend of mine) for *my*
girlfriend.  I hate the GF he betrayed me for, who told me later that
she only dated me to get to him.  They both also spread a lot of ugly
rumors about me to ostracize me from a group we were all a part of.  I
hate one of the members of that group for later working on a different
GF of mine, not to date her, but to just turn her against me.  I hate
the guy who was a manager at a place I worked and left, and who ended up
working hard for a year and a half to keep me from getting a job
whenever someone called the place for a reference.  I hate a group of
the kids I used to hang out with in high school for trying to help a
couple of the girls in the group to try and take my virginity against my
will... (read as "attempted gang rape by a couple of girls while a few
of the guys tried to hold me down."  And yes, a guy can be raped by
women.  The body doesn't always react as the mind wishes.  They stopped
the attempt when I was struggling so hard I kicked one of the guys in
the face and almost dislocated his jaw.  I still have an incredible fear
of being physically restrained in any manner.)

I say all this, Shawn, not to "steal your thunder," but so that you can
understand that I'm not just offering platitudes... I really do
understand where you're coming from.  You're on the road to healing a
lot of old wounds, and it's hard... I know.  Keep with it and understand
that the road won't always be easy, clouds will pass even deeper over
the sun on your journey, and at times, the weight you struggle under
will become even greater.  But with that, you will learn how to traverse
our path, no matter how rough, you will see more clearly then many when
the sun shines, and the weight you bore will have made you stronger.
Healing isn't just everything getting better steadily, but when you plod
through the times when things are worse for a while, it will make you
appreciate the easier times more as well.

By walking through that school, you've started a process.  Stick with
it, actively pursue it even, and the world will be better for your
journey.  And if you ever need someone to talk to who's going through
similar experiences, just e-mail me.

Iggy McSnurd







From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Dec 28 20:06:49 2003
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 20:06:49 -0000
Subject: Article:  One Big Dysfunctional Weasley Family? (LONG)
In-Reply-To: <bskodk+n7io@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <bsnd4p+s6er@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "psychic_serpent"
<psychic_serpent at y...> wrote of :
>
> > http://www.redhen-publications.com/Weasleys.html
>   
> Well, I suppose it COULD be a thought-provoking article, but it
> does have a number of flaws concerning the canon.  

Thank you for pointing out the errors about who was Sorted into
Gryffindor, so I don't have to.

> I just don't know what Molly Weasley this person has 
> been reading, but it doesn't seem to be the one from JKR's books.

It's her own mother from her own childhood: she said so.

> The author claims, "And, so far, we have seen nothing in Percy's 
> behavior which would not be consistent with deliberately distancing 
> himself from his family, for their own as well as his mission's 
> protection," going on to mention Percy's "over-the-top pompous 
> letter to Ron congratulating him on his Prefect's appointment" in 
> which he also advises him "to distance himself from Harry Potter." 
 
> Actually, that very letter is the strongest thing in OotP, other 
> than the article that appears in the Prophet the next day, to 
> support the idea that Percy is a spy.  That letter very cleverly 
> communicated information to Ron and his friends that the rest of the 
> world did not have until the Prophet came out the next day, and it 
> was sent in the middle of the night, to avoid the problem of the owl 
> being intercepted (which Percy clearly knew was a danger).  The 
> letter was also clearly calculated to make Ron react strongly, 
> vowing that he would never abandon Harry, showing that Percy knows 
> his reverse psychology very well.  Percy's reaction in Dumbledore's 
> office is also cited as evidence that he can't be a spy, but if he 
> hadn't reacted that way, he would have blown his cover.  It is only 
> evidence that he is a GOOD spy, not a gleeful villain.

Uh, Barb, that portion of the essay was the author *agreeing* that
Percy's behaviour in OoP does not at all disagree with the theory that
his is Dumbledore's spy: "After the Crouch debacle, Percy could also
have been contacted by Dumbledore who has asked him if he is willing
to make use of the situation. Percy was in the perfect position at the
end of GoF to go into deep cover. ... This particular scenario feeds
into the "Redheaded Pimpernel" theories that periodically crop up on
one of my lists."

> Then the author, inexplicably, goes off on a tangent about how th
> age gap between Charlie and Percy "doesn't work" for the author,

You skipped the speculation about all Arthur's siblings and close
relatives having been killed in the First Vold War, seguing to the
'Ron as seventh son of seventh son' theories. Just because it's
not a new idea to these lists? 

> Then the author, inexplicably, goes off on a tangent about how the
> age gap between Charlie and Percy "doesn't work" for the author

I agree with you that the essay is all wet about the age gap, but the
transition is not inexplicable: "The "seventh son" theory is based
upon the reading that Ron is in fact the seventh son of a seventh son
... In order for this to pan out, of course, Arthur and Molly must
have already lost a son at some point. Most people holding to this
theory view the longer than usual age gap between Charlie and Percy
with great suspicion."





From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Dec 28 20:26:30 2003
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 20:26:30 -0000
Subject: An interesting bit of trivia
In-Reply-To: <bsknj4+daaj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <bsne9m+qd3c@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Ali" <Ali at z...> wrote:

> Jimmy Riddle = tiddle

Not 'piddle'?

I suppose Jimmy Riddle was a real person, in real life or in pop
culture, whose name was taken into rhyming slang. I vaguely recall my
ex (a Londoner) telling me he had gone home for a visit and a new bit
of rhyming slang had cropped up while he was in the States, based on
the founder of Australian Professional Cricket, which had come on TV
in UK (which I have gone to the trouble to find a Web reference for):
http://www.aldertons.com/english-.htm

Knackered (tired) - Kerry Packer -- I'm right Kerry'd [Thanks to David
Bennett - Kerry Packer is an Australian media magnate (and bleeding
rich!)]




From CoyotesChild at charter.net  Sun Dec 28 20:36:09 2003
From: CoyotesChild at charter.net (Iggy McSnurd)
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 14:36:09 -0600
Subject: Rhyming Slang (was -  Re: An interesting bit of trivia)
In-Reply-To: <bsne9m+qd3c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000201c3cd82$3cc0d9a0$4e60bf44@Einstein>



> From: Catlady 
> 
> 
> Knackered (tired) - Kerry Packer -- I'm right Kerry'd [Thanks to David
> Bennett - Kerry Packer is an Australian media magnate (and bleeding
> rich!)]

Iggy here:

Interesting... I had always heard that a "knacker" was a kind of
butcher, and so if something is "knackered," it's been cut up for its
meat.


Anyone care to list some of the Rhyming Slang they've heard?  (Or,
phrases that are personal, favorites for them.)


Iggy McSnurd







From Ali at zymurgy.org  Sun Dec 28 21:37:46 2003
From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali)
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 21:37:46 -0000
Subject: An interesting bit of trivia
In-Reply-To: <bsne9m+qd3c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <bsnifa+skmg@eGroups.com>

I wrote:-
 
> > Jimmy Riddle = tiddle

Catlady queried this:-
 
>>> Not 'piddle'?>>>

Actually, probably. The words are used interchangeably. -
 
>>> I suppose Jimmy Riddle was a real person, in real life or in pop
 culture, whose name was taken into rhyming slang.<<< 

I don't know, it's more than possible - there are new phrases being 
made up all the time. Tony Blair is rhyming slang for something, but 
I forget what!!

There are several phrases that are in common usage in the UK, not 
just London, eg:

Tea Leaf        : Thief
Butchers (Hook) : Look
Cream crackered : Knackered

This site has a number of UK slang terms translated:

http://www.hps.com/~tpg/ukdict/

Here the BBC points out a few of the more common phrases:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/A649

There are several other rhyming slang sites as well.

Ali




From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Dec 28 22:17:06 2003
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 22:17:06 -0000
Subject: An interesting bit of trivia
In-Reply-To: <bsnifa+skmg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <bsnkp2+g0h1@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Ali" <Ali at z...> wrote:

> I don't know, it's more than possible - there are new phrases being 
> made up all the time. Tony Blair is rhyming slang for something, but 
> I forget what!!

The site I mentioned, http://www.aldertons.com/english-.htm , doesn't
have Tony Blair as rhyming slang, but does have his son:

Leicester Square -- Euan Blair -- We're getting off the train at Euan
Blair station [Thanks to Vix.  Mark points out that Euan Blair (Prime
minister's underage son) was found drunk by police in Leicester Square
earlier this year.  Hence the slang.] 




From fc26det at aol.com  Mon Dec 29 00:51:45 2003
From: fc26det at aol.com (Potterfanme)
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 00:51:45 -0000
Subject: The Best Xmas Gift!
Message-ID: <bsntr1+bh0m@eGroups.com>

Hi all, 
I hope you all had a good Christmas (for those of you who celebrate 
it).  My son got me the Pirates of the Caribean DVD.  I am hooked.  
Watching it for the third time now.  Have been to the website and 
downloaded the desktop, screensaver and a little pirate guy who is 
running across my screen.

I didn't know a thing about this movie.  I have never been to 
Disneyland so have never ridden the ride.  I have heard of both 
Johnny Depp and Orlando Bloom but didn't know anything about either 
of them.  So I went into this movie cold.

I love it!  I love Captain Jack!!  Will Turner is ok (ducking Bloom 
fans) but Captain Jack has much more character in my opinion.  

I still love Harry above all but this is just...well....cool!

What did ya'll get...huh? (Other than Iggy getting his new game, of 
course!)

Susan
Who did get other sensible items such as a treadmill and clothes and 
some HP stuff too.




From boggles at earthlink.net  Mon Dec 29 08:40:47 2003
From: boggles at earthlink.net (Jennifer Boggess Ramon)
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 02:40:47 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Hogwarts-ish school in the US?
In-Reply-To: <000b01c3cad9$7f3e2900$a6706751@kathryn>
References: <brsuhs+r13a@eGroups.com>
 <p05210600bc1002e67b88@[192.168.1.100]>
 <000b01c3cad9$7f3e2900$a6706751@kathryn>
Message-ID: <p05210602bc129e1fd6ce@[192.168.1.100]>

At 3:23 AM -0800 12/25/03, Kathryn Cawte wrote:
>  > Boggles
>
>>  Bear in mind that education is, by design, the responsibility of the
>>  individual states in the US, not the federal government.  I see no
>>  reason why the Wizarding World would work differently.
>
>Well since Hogwarts is 1000 years old I would assume that any non-native
>American schools would have been set up to mimic the model that was in
>existence when the colonies were founded.

Well, when they were colonies, I would have imagined that wizarding 
children would have been shipped back to Scotland to attend Hogwarts 
itself.  Certainly the population here wasn't large enough to support 
a wizarding school of its own (unless, of course, there was already 
one in Salem at the time).

After the Revolutionary War, it appears from the scant evidence in 
QttA and FBaWTFT that USian wizards adopted much of the character of 
their young country, which at the time would have involved quite a 
bit of state feeling.  (If nothing else, at the very least there have 
to have been competing schools in Massachusetts and Virginia!)

>  Besides I'm not sure how likely it
>would be to have three schools covering Europe and at least the western part
>of Russia and 50 in the US.

True, but I'm not at all sure I believe that those three cover all of 
Europe, either.  Is there any evidence that either Beauxbatons or 
Durmstrang covers Italy and Greece, for example?  Or that Durmstrang 
covers the Scandinavian countries?  Those three may just be the three 
largest, or the three oldest, or most prominent.

-- 

  - Boggles, aka J. C. B. Ramon			boggles(at)earthlink.net
"It is not knowledge, but the act of learning, not possession but the 
act of getting there, which grants the greatest enjoyment. "
	- Gauss, in a Letter to Bolyai, 1808.



From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk  Mon Dec 29 15:37:14 2003
From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti)
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 15:37:14 -0000
Subject: Bad Timing...was:Re: Goodbye
In-Reply-To: <000001c3ccc4$a8d87440$4e60bf44@Einstein>
Message-ID: <bsphna+d5gn@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Iggy McSnurd" 
<CoyotesChild at c...> wrote:
> Iggy here:
> 
> Ok... who told on me?  
> 
> If I find out who did, I'll have to torture them slowly.  
Personally, I
> find that forcing someone to complete a marathon while wearing a 
mink
> body suit does wonders as a torture.  Oh, and did I mention that 
the fur
> goes on the *inside*?  (Just think about it, I'm sure you'll 
understand
> in time... especially if, man or woman, they're forced to run the 
whole
> 26 miles.  With appropriate breaks for recovery, as I see fit, of
> course...)
> 
> *throws his head back and cackles insanely*
> 
> Oh... yes... *ahem*... what was I saying?
> 
> 
> Iggy McSnurd

What I'm really interested in, as an armchair psychologist, is just 
how you discovered that this would work as a torture, and how you 
tested it?

June




From CoyotesChild at charter.net  Mon Dec 29 16:42:44 2003
From: CoyotesChild at charter.net (Iggy McSnurd)
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 10:42:44 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Bad Timing...was:Re: Goodbye
In-Reply-To: <bsphna+d5gn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000001c3ce2a$cbada910$4e60bf44@Einstein>

> June
> 
> What I'm really interested in, as an armchair psychologist, is just
> how you discovered that this would work as a torture, and how you
> tested it?
> 

Iggy here:

Well, as a fellow armchair "skull jockey" (being a former psych major,
in fact, before I had to switch to IT for on-line schooling) I actually
focused on sexuality and human relations, since I grew up in an area
where it was an important social factor... not to mention just plain
fascinating. (Especially when you include studies of some of the
"alternative lifestyles" that are more prevalent in the area where I
lived in California... about an hour south on the coast from San
Francisco.) 

There's a concept that's based on the "too much of a good thing" saying,
which states that an excess of pleasure can be as much of a torture
(albeit a more subtle one) as the inflicting of pain.  As the constant
motion of the soft fur on sensitive parts of the body can be very
pleasurable at first, it can quickly cause some... interesting...
complications.  (There was an interesting race I heard about from an old
friend of mine where some guys ran a race with rabbit fur in their
jockey shorts... the winner was the one with the most endurance, not the
fastest.)  Imagine having to run a full marathon under the more severe
conditions of wearing a full body suit made of mink or rabbit fur with
the fur itself on the inside.

As for testing it, I haven't had the opportunity to put the full theory
into operation, but I do happen to have a rabbit fur massage mitten.
(You use it when massaging someone as a pleasurable and relaxing
sensation.)  Considering some of the reactions I can get from my wife
while using my mitten to help her relax after a rough day at work, it's
not too difficult to extrapolate a grander effect from there.

Does that answer the questions?

Iggy McSnurd





From oscarlopes at hotmail.com  Mon Dec 29 20:25:57 2003
From: oscarlopes at hotmail.com (neostorm_99)
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 20:25:57 -0000
Subject: A Harry Potter based RPG
Message-ID: <bsq2kl+p1ks@eGroups.com>

If anyone is interested in a very fun RPG, then join the Salem 
Academy. We are 1 month new, so plots are in the beginning stages of 
development, and have  over 70 players so far.  

Link: http://s2.invisionfree.com/SalemAcademy

It is Based on the same housing system as Hogwarts, but placed in the 
United States.

We are more lenient than most other rpgs, in terms of swearing (which 
you can) and sex (which you can't fully (nothing past 2nd base)have 
on Salem Academy, but we have a mirror site for any sexual fantasies).

If you are interested, please register and post in the sorting hat 
thread.

Thank you,
Uther ~ Headmaster






From bumbledor at charter.net  Mon Dec 29 23:04:37 2003
From: bumbledor at charter.net (Bumbledor)
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 18:04:37 -0500
Subject: any one know where?
Message-ID: <002201c3ce60$22cb31b0$6601a8c0@mac>

Anyone know of a source for Gryffindor Quidditch sweaters or robes? Adult
sizes?
Thanks.




From heidilist at tandys.org  Mon Dec 29 23:12:52 2003
From: heidilist at tandys.org (Heidi Tandy)
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 15:12:52 -0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] any one know where?
In-Reply-To: <002201c3ce60$22cb31b0$6601a8c0@mac>
References: <002201c3ce60$22cb31b0$6601a8c0@mac>
Message-ID: <1072739575.2A15ABF0@w5.dngr.org>

Alivans.com has robes in stock - as well as wands. Don't know if they 
have sweaters, though.

On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 6:05pm, Bumbledor wrote:
> Anyone know of a source for Gryffindor Quidditch sweaters or robes? 
> Adult
> sizes?
> Thanks.
>
>
> ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________
>
> Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the group's Admin 
> Files!
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/
>
> Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from 
> posts to which you're replying!
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
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>
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>  HPFGU-OTChatter-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
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>  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



From andie at knownet.net  Tue Dec 30 02:02:34 2003
From: andie at knownet.net (grindieloe)
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 02:02:34 -0000
Subject: any one know where?
In-Reply-To: <002201c3ce60$22cb31b0$6601a8c0@mac>
Message-ID: <bsqmbq+glag@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Bumbledor" <bumbledor at c...> 
wrote:
> Anyone know of a source for Gryffindor Quidditch sweaters or 
robes? Adult
> sizes?
> Thanks.




I see Heidi already told you about Alivan's robes!  I have one thing 
to add... they do have sweaters at http://www.hpwizardstore.com , 
and I believe they come in adult sizes. 

Andrea :)




From CoyotesChild at charter.net  Tue Dec 30 02:46:02 2003
From: CoyotesChild at charter.net (Iggy McSnurd)
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 20:46:02 -0600
Subject: Quidditch World Cup game
Message-ID: <000001c3ce7f$13691c90$4e60bf44@Einstein>

Iggy here:

Ok all, a few more notes about the "Quidditch World Cup" video game, for
those of you who wish to know.  (Those who don't, can just skip past
this letter.)


It takes collecting 65 "Quidditch Cards" to unlock the Bulgarian team,
so don't expect to play them anytime soon.

When you defeat a team on their home field, you unlock it as a location
to play an exhibition match.

The "team special moves" take special conditions to unlock.  The card
for it in the "view cards" section of the inventory menu will tell you
what those conditions are.  (There are usually multiple ones to meet,
but the first one or two are usually pretty automatic... it's the final
one you'll probably need to look up specifically.  For example, to
unlock the English team's move, the last one is scoring 20 goals in one
game.  For the US, it's using 3 special moves in a single game, IIRC.)

The team moves are pretty hard to do sometimes, so be patient.  Once you
earn the ability to do one during a match, you may have to try a couple
of times before you get it... but most of them are worth watching.
(Even if you're on the receiving end of one... like watching Krum do the
Wronski Feint as the major part of the Bulgarian team's move.  The US
team pulls a "Harlem Globetrotter's" sequence that's *really* cool to
watch.)

The one thing that, IMHO, is unfair about the moves, is that some teams
score twice with their special move, and some only score once.  (I still
haven't found any aspect that balances it out... like the teams that
score once charging up the move faster...  If there is one, it's pretty
well hidden.  If there isn't, then it's kinda unbalanced.)

When you win the World Cup with any team the first time, you unlock the
Queerditch Marsh option on the menu.  Selecting that option allows you
to play an exhibition match on the original field.  On the downside, you
can only play as the Hogwarts house teams.

There are things in the "specials" option of the cards that require that
you do things like win the cup at higher skill levels and such, and some
options where it doesn't matter what skill level you're on.  My
suggestion is to unlock everything you can at the Nimbus 2000 level
(challenging at times, but pretty easy once you get the hang of it...
like when I played as the English team tonight, and beat Germany 580 to
30...)

An important bit of advice here:  If you're like me when you play, you
will end up clenching on the controller.  (Your left thumb, and the
joints in your index fingers will begin to ache after a while.)  Play a
match or two, and give your hands some time to rest, if you tend to grip
the controller hard while in the middle of a match.

The longer you hold down an action or shoot button as a Chaser, the more
power and speed you put into your throw.  So your best bet is to begin
charging up your shot as you look for a target, and then release.  On
the downside, you need to make sure you find a target (moving left or
right with the left analog stick) quickly, because if you hold down the
button too long, the game takes the shot automatically.

Two of your most valuable skills to learn are how to tackle quickly, and
how to feint your goal shots.  Charging your shot as you head towards
one ring, leading off the Keeper, then quickly switching your aim as you
take a power shot is *very* effective.  Developing these two skills is
why I manage to score so well, and the opposing teams rarely even gotten
a chance to shoot ay me goals.  (I think my Keepers are getting kinda
bored... to tell the truth.)

The higher your score is compared to your opponent's when the Snitch is
spotted, the more of an advantage you have over the opposing Seeker.
For example, in the match against Germany when England led by 430pts
when the Snitch was spitted, my Seeker's "turbo meter" was almost the
entire height of the screen, and the German Seeker's meter was almost
non-existent.

Don't worry too much about using the "circle" button to catch the
Snitch.  I've noticed that if you actually manage to actually hit the
Snitch with your Seeker, the game will often have them make a catch
attempt automatically.



I think that covers enough for our first lesson.  *grin*

Iggy McSnurd









From macloudt at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Dec 30 11:11:39 2003
From: macloudt at yahoo.co.uk (Mary Ann)
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 11:11:39 -0000
Subject: Rhyming Slang (was -  Re: An interesting bit of trivia)
In-Reply-To: <000201c3cd82$3cc0d9a0$4e60bf44@Einstein>
Message-ID: <bsrmhb+60mi@eGroups.com>

Iggy wrote:

> Interesting... I had always heard that a "knacker" was a kind of
> butcher, and so if something is "knackered," it's been cut up for 
its
> meat.

Here in Somerset "knackered" means worn out after sex.  A locally 
born-and-raised friend of mine can remember being wholloped across 
the floor at the age of nine by her mother for proclaiming that she 
was knackered.  Of course, she didn't even know what she was saying!

Fast forward 15 years...my friend's 4-year-old daughter is talking 
to my friend's mother on the phone and says, "Grandma, I'm 
knackered!".  Grandma was very confused until my friend shouted in 
the background, "No, Emily, you're *naked*!".  Grandma was on the 
floor practically wetting herself laughing.

The things kids say, eh?

Mary Ann :)




From CoyotesChild at charter.net  Tue Dec 30 14:29:19 2003
From: CoyotesChild at charter.net (Iggy McSnurd)
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 08:29:19 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Rhyming Slang (was -  Re: An interesting bit of trivia)
In-Reply-To: <bsrmhb+60mi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000001c3cee1$52c21380$4e60bf44@Einstein>

Iggy here:

I just found these interesting dictionary sites on the web for Rhyming
Slang:

www.londonslang.com
http://www.cockneyrhymingslang.co.uk/


They have some pretty cool translations.  (BTW: Bangin', bang, and
banged are also American slang for... well... intense and hardcore
sex... as opposed to the listed UK definition.)


Iggy McSnurd







From tim_regan82 at hotmail.com  Tue Dec 30 16:50:48 2003
From: tim_regan82 at hotmail.com (Tim Regan)
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 16:50:48 -0000
Subject: Quidditch World Cup game
In-Reply-To: <000001c3ce7f$13691c90$4e60bf44@Einstein>
Message-ID: <bssad8+iafg@eGroups.com>

Hi All,

That's great thanks for the info Iggy. Now can you explain how to 
avoid being repeatedly beaten by my 10 year old son 400:10 :-(

Cheers,

Dumbledad.




From CoyotesChild at charter.net  Tue Dec 30 17:38:50 2003
From: CoyotesChild at charter.net (Iggy McSnurd)
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 11:38:50 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Quidditch World Cup game
In-Reply-To: <bssad8+iafg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000101c3cefb$cc829950$4e60bf44@Einstein>

> Dumbledad:
>
> Hi All,
> 
> That's great thanks for the info Iggy. 

Iggy here:

No problem.  I always figure that a lot of people out there can use all
the info they can get on games... especially if they haven't bought them
yet.

> Dumbledad:
>
>Now can you explain how to
> avoid being repeatedly beaten by my 10 year old son 400:10 :-(
> 

Iggy again:

Well, if you play video games almost as much as he does, I would
recommend learning those two tactics I mentioned earlier - the tackle
and the fake-out.  Using special tackles (after you've earned one) only
when he is getting dangerously close to your goalposts is also a good
idea.  Using the bludgers works, but IMHO is unreliable enough a tactic
that I only use them when I either really need them, or am so far ahead
I can take the risk.

(BTW: The basic defensive tactic to use against the bludgers is to fly
your Chaser do that your Beaters are between the bludger and yourself,
then hit the square button repeatedly until your Beater knocks the
bludger away.  A less reliable, but still useful, tactic is to just make
a goal shot if you're in scoring range.  Even if you don't score, it
gets the bludger off your back.)


On the other hand, if you don't play video games as much as him, then
I'd start if you want to have a chance at beating him... otherwise
you're S.O.L. outside of any tactic other than cheating in some way...
*grin*

My step-son's dad, uncle, and I all beat my step-son about 50% of the
time or more, since all of us are avid video gamers ourselves.


As an interesting side note, many people say that video games hinder a
child's development.  I disagree strongly... so far as they're the right
games and are not the *only* thing the kid does.  For one thing, just
look at your son's reaction time, and eye/hand coordination compared to
tours on these games.  Not only that, but to win at these games takes a
certain amount of development in the area of reflexive thought.


Iggy McSnurd







From cwood at tattersallpub.com  Tue Dec 30 21:01:29 2003
From: cwood at tattersallpub.com (mstattersall)
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 21:01:29 -0000
Subject: Quidditch World Cup game
In-Reply-To: <000001c3ce7f$13691c90$4e60bf44@Einstein>
Message-ID: <bssp39+kcc1@eGroups.com>

> Iggy here: Ok all, a few more notes about the "Quidditch World Cup" 
video game, for
> those of you who wish to know.

This is a lot more complicated than Pong, which is about where my 
videogaming development arrested. *grins wryly and sighs*

After diligent effort, I've acquired two cards. Go ahead and laugh, 
but picture a grey-haired granny curling gnarled fingers over 
keyboard and mouse (I'm playing the PC version)...well, I ain't quite 
THAT old but in this venue I feel pretty ancient... I'm enjoying it 
immensely, though, and I hope to be able to acquire enough skill to 
be able to use some of Iggy's hints and tricks soon! 

Ms. Tattersall
*who is in fact somebody's granny and that somebody can clean my 
clock at Quidditch World Cup standing on his head*






From saitaina at wizzards.net  Tue Dec 30 21:04:54 2003
From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina)
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 13:04:54 -0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] The Best Xmas Gift!
References: <bsntr1+bh0m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <009c01c3cf18$93476400$0201a8c0@oemcomputer>

Susan wrote:

<What did ya'll get...huh? (Other than Iggy
getting his new game, of
course!)>

I got a new Game Cube, Game Boy Player for
Game Cube and the Kim Possible GBA game which
I beat at 12.51am Christmas morning (and play
nearly every day...It's a sad obsession)

also got two original NES (Nintendo) systems
that don't work.

Saitaina
****
Brave and bold they're not.  They ain't the
bravest heroes...but they're the only ones
we've got.

http://www.livejournal.com/users/saitaina

"No, one day I'm going to look back on all
this and plow face-first into a tree because
I was looking the wrong bloody way. And I'll
still be having a better day than I am
today."




From angela_glor at yahoo.com  Tue Dec 30 21:02:21 2003
From: angela_glor at yahoo.com (angela_glor)
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 21:02:21 -0000
Subject: A Harry Potter based RPG
In-Reply-To: <bsq2kl+p1ks@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <bssp4t+rtv7@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "neostorm_99" 
<oscarlopes at h...> wrote:
> If anyone is interested in a very fun RPG, then join the Salem 
> Academy. We are 1 month new, so plots are in the beginning stages 
of 
> development, and have  over 70 players so far.  
> 
> Link: http://s2.invisionfree.com/SalemAcademy

Can you explain more about what rpg is?  It sounds interesting, but I 
have never done this before.

Angela





From dudemom_2000 at yahoo.com  Tue Dec 30 22:42:03 2003
From: dudemom_2000 at yahoo.com (dudemom_2000)
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 22:42:03 -0000
Subject: Quidditch World Cup game
In-Reply-To: <000001c3ce7f$13691c90$4e60bf44@Einstein>
Message-ID: <bssuvr+bjam@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Iggy McSnurd" 
<CoyotesChild at c...> wrote:
> Iggy here:
> 
> Ok all, a few more notes about the "Quidditch World Cup" video 
game, for
> those of you who wish to know.  (Those who don't, can just skip 
past
> this letter.)
> 
> Snip<
> An important bit of advice here:  If you're like me when you play, 
you will end up clenching on the controller.  (Your left thumb, and 
the joints in your index fingers will begin to ache after a while.)  
Play a match or two, and give your hands some time to rest, if you 
tend to grip the controller hard while in the middle of a match.
> 
> The longer you hold down an action or shoot button as a Chaser, 
the more power and speed you put into your throw.  So your best bet 
is to begin charging up your shot as you look for a target, and then 
release.  On the downside, you need to make sure you find a target 
(moving left or right with the left analog stick) quickly, because 
if you hold down the button too long, the game takes the shot 
automatically.
> 
>Snip< 
> I think that covers enough for our first lesson.  *grin*
> 
> Iggy McSnurd

*****\(@@)/*****

Looks like a really interesting game! I am curious as to what type 
of controller you are using (hopefully for a PC). I have never 
bought a controller before so I would appreciate some suggestions. I 
played the Quiddich in the PC versions of CoS and SS and really 
loved those but I used the mouse and my hand really hurt!

Dudemom_2000

*****\(@@)/*****




From dudemom_2000 at yahoo.com  Tue Dec 30 22:58:29 2003
From: dudemom_2000 at yahoo.com (dudemom_2000)
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 22:58:29 -0000
Subject: any one know where?
In-Reply-To: <002201c3ce60$22cb31b0$6601a8c0@mac>
Message-ID: <bssvul+g2c3@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Bumbledor" <bumbledor at c...> 
wrote:
> Anyone know of a source for Gryffindor Quidditch sweaters or 
robes? Adult
> sizes?
> Thanks.

*****\(@@)/*****

Two suggestions. Try this site:

http://www.wizardknits.com/

But I thought the stripes were just a little bit off. I have 
designed a Quiddich Sweater on HPKnits group but you would either 
have to find someone to knit it or learn to knit!

Dudemom_2000 *needles clicking* (who has the initial sweater, the 
Quiddich Sweater and the Gryffindor school sweater and is currently 
working on Dobby Socks)

*****\(@@)/*****




From CoyotesChild at charter.net  Tue Dec 30 23:01:28 2003
From: CoyotesChild at charter.net (Iggy McSnurd)
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 17:01:28 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Quidditch World Cup game
In-Reply-To: <bssuvr+bjam@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000201c3cf28$dbfc91b0$4e60bf44@Einstein>

> 
> *****\(@@)/*****
> 
> Looks like a really interesting game! I am curious as to what type
> of controller you are using (hopefully for a PC). I have never
> bought a controller before so I would appreciate some suggestions. I
> played the Quiddich in the PC versions of CoS and SS and really
> loved those but I used the mouse and my hand really hurt!
> 
> Dudemom_2000
> 
> *****\(@@)/*****
> 
> 

Iggy here:

I don't know about anyone else out there, but I'm playing the game on my
Playstation 2... 

For controllers, if Mad Katz makes one for the PC, I'd look into getting
one of theirs, since they're one of the best, off brand manufacturers of
controllers and accessories.  Try to get one that's modeled after the
PS2 style controller, since those are one of the easiest to use.


Just my two centaur's worth

Iggy McSnurd







From zanelupin at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 31 17:04:43 2003
From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (KathyK)
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 17:04:43 -0000
Subject: The Best Xmas Gift!
In-Reply-To: <009c01c3cf18$93476400$0201a8c0@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <bsuvjb+3duk@eGroups.com>

Saitaina wrote:

> also got two original NES (Nintendo) systems
> that don't work.

KathyK:

This brings me memories of many hours spent blowing in games and 
banging on our NES to get it to work.  I think we went through two 
or three systems before we got the Super Nintendo.  

Also, a couple years ago, my brother and my mother went through some 
sort of video game nostalgia phase and spent way too much money on 
ebay acquiring two NES systems--one that didn't work no matter how 
much they hit it or blew into the games--and Atari, and a Sega 
Genesis, as well as games to go with these systems.  

And what did they do with these games once they'd played them once 
or twice?  Put them in a closet to never give them another thought.  
One of these days I'm going to snag them for myself.  But for now 
I'm content with my Super Nintendo and Zelda to play as well as my 
PS2.  Haven't tried QWC yet, though.  I'm too worried I won't be 
able to stop if I start.  And Iggy, I think, is providing good 
evidence that this indeed will be the case once I've begun playing.

Happy New Year Everyone!

KathyK, poking her head out of the cave she's been lurking in




From CoyotesChild at charter.net  Wed Dec 31 17:47:03 2003
From: CoyotesChild at charter.net (Iggy McSnurd)
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 11:47:03 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: The Best Xmas Gift!
In-Reply-To: <bsuvjb+3duk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000401c3cfc6$1cc48020$4e60bf44@Einstein>

> KathyK:
> 
> But for now
> I'm content with my Super Nintendo and Zelda to play as well as my
> PS2.  Haven't tried QWC yet, though.  I'm too worried I won't be
> able to stop if I start.  And Iggy, I think, is providing good
> evidence that this indeed will be the case once I've begun playing.
> 

Iggy here:

Actually, I haven't really been able to play QWC much over the last
couple of days, since my daughter has been taking over the TV watching
her Disney and Blue's Clues DVDs and such.  So, I content myself during
the day playing my wife's best Christmas gift... the Sims - Makin'
Magic.  (A very fun and addictive game in its own right...)

When I do get a chance to play, I usually have a go at a match or three,
then put the controller down and walk away from the game for a while.

(The reason I was able to pack so much info in so quickly is because of
two things... 1: I played it a LOT over the first three days I had it...
and 2: I almost got hired at Midway Games as a game tester a few years
back because of my natural ability to analyze and critique video games.
The only reason I'm not working for them today, is because they felt
they couldn't offer me enough money to make a 2-3 hour/way commute worth
it.  They even tried to find a way to split the job between me testing
and being an "on-site" analyst so they could offer me more money... but
the accounting dept. wouldn't allow for it.)

Iggy McSnurd







From annemehr at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 31 19:07:16 2003
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr)
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 19:07:16 -0000
Subject: The Best Xmas Gift!
In-Reply-To: <bsuvjb+3duk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <bsv6p4+9jfn@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "KathyK" <zanelupin at y...> wrote:

> Also, a couple years ago, my brother and my mother went through some 
> sort of video game nostalgia phase and spent way too much money on 
> ebay acquiring two NES systems--one that didn't work no matter how 
> much they hit it or blew into the games--and Atari, and a Sega 
> Genesis, as well as games to go with these systems.  
> 
> And what did they do with these games once they'd played them once 
> or twice?  Put them in a closet to never give them another thought.  
> One of these days I'm going to snag them for myself.  But for now 
> I'm content with my Super Nintendo and Zelda to play as well as my 
> PS2.  Haven't tried QWC yet, though.  I'm too worried I won't be 
> able to stop if I start.  And Iggy, I think, is providing good 
> evidence that this indeed will be the case once I've begun playing.
> 
> Happy New Year Everyone!
> 
> KathyK, poking her head out of the cave she's been lurking in

Annemehr:

All you people talking about playing video games makes me feel better,
because I'm a 43-yr-old who felt strange about liking them.  I have a
copy of HP - CoS for PS2 that I bought for *myself* because my kids
decided they wanted the PS1 version.  *I,* however, wanted the PS2
version because the graphics are so much better and Harry is, well, so
much more adorable.

'S long as I'm 'fessing up, I also like the Pokemon gameboy games and
trading card game (an excellent strategy game), and for pure
relaxation and fun, nothing beats Crash Team Racing on the PS1.

<waves to Saitaina, Iggy, KathyK and all the other gamers on the list>

Annemehr
who is disappointed because no one bought her a HP calendar for Christmas





From CoyotesChild at charter.net  Wed Dec 31 20:13:56 2003
From: CoyotesChild at charter.net (Iggy McSnurd)
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 14:13:56 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: The Best Xmas Gift!
In-Reply-To: <bsv6p4+9jfn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000501c3cfda$a1b54ee0$4e60bf44@Einstein>

> Annemehr:
> 
> All you people talking about playing video games makes me feel better,
> because I'm a 43-yr-old who felt strange about liking them.  I have a
> copy of HP - CoS for PS2 that I bought for *myself* because my kids
> decided they wanted the PS1 version.  *I,* however, wanted the PS2
> version because the graphics are so much better and Harry is, well, so
> much more adorable.
> 
> 'S long as I'm 'fessing up, I also like the Pokemon gameboy games and
> trading card game (an excellent strategy game), and for pure
> relaxation and fun, nothing beats Crash Team Racing on the PS1.
> 

Iggy here:

Ok, here we go with my basic list for the all-time greatest games for
the PS2  (I'm including PS1 games, since Sony is the only company ever
to be intelligent enough to make their newer game system "backwards
compatible..." meaning that you can play games from previous systems on
the newer ones.)

Final Fantasy... I'm not numbering any of them, since ALL of them
qualify as ultra cool.  (Let's face it, Squaresoft is, and always has
been, the reigning champion when it comes to RPG games for console
systems.)

Suikoden I and II... both are very strong games with an innovative story
style.  You have the main goal of defeating the bad guy, but your side
goal is to find out how to recruit the 109 "Stars of Destiny."  Not only
do they have a good main combat system, but the battles between armies
in both are neat too.  Suikoden II also has a few, really fun, "Iron
Chef" style competitions to boot.

Castlevania - Symphony of the Night... IMHO, this is the best
Castlevania game on any system, and of the ones that came before and
after.  Yes, it's a side-scrolling game, but it's not only fun, but very
challenging.  The replay value on the game is good, and if you handle
the "final battle" one way, you win the game... but if you play it
differently, you discover that what you thought was the last battle, was
only the halfway point in the game.

Jak 2... While Jak and Daxter is a cool game in its own right, Jak 2
beats it hands down.  The graphics are a little better, but the
game-play and semi-linear style are a blast to play... especially with
the ability to "hover-jack" people's hover cars and cycles.

Ratchet and Clank... A very fun game with a lot of replay value.
(Especially when you take into account the ability to start over with
all your end-game stats and weapons from your previous play through...)
The side quests and special conditions add a lot of depth into the game,
allowing you to simply complete the game, or spend a lot more time with
more in-depth play.  Some people, of course, may want to play through
normally once, and then a few times after that to beat all the side
quests for special weapons and unlocking options.  (I haven't played the
second R&C game yet, but if it's at least as good as the first, it will
be a good buy.)

Chrono Trigger... A rare and hard to find game from Squaresoft.  It's
much like the FF games, but has some interesting twists in combat...
like the ability to learn "duo" and "trio" moves where more people join
into a special move to add a lot more power.  It's the game that really
introduced the "new game +" option of starting a new game with the eq
and stats from your prior game.  (You still have to re-gain characters
and quest items, but the stat, eq, and cash boost at the start is a big
help.)

Chrono Cross... This isn't a sequel to Chrono Trigger, per se, but there
are a few important things that have some carry-over into the Chrono
Cross game to set it in the duo.  The magic and skill setup is pretty
innovative, as well as how you increase in power.  The replay value is
great, since certain decisions you make during the game determine what
characters you can recruit... and if you use the "new game +" option,
you can recruit a different set of characters.  With the proper items,
and meeting the proper conditions, you can eventually have the entire
cast of major playable characters on your side.  (Ok, well, there's one
you can't have that you play for a while, but I won't spoil it for you
by revealing their identity.)

Quidditch World Cup... For Harry Potter and sports fans alike, this game
is fun, fast paced, and challenging.  Different teams can get different
special moves, and even going up in one skill level of difficulty can
make a big difference.  While I don't normally like sports style games,
this one combines them with the HP universe, which is definitely a solid
draw in for me and many others.

Metal Gear Solid... all the PS versions.  Challenging "special
operations" games with strong storylines in their own right.  You can
decide whether or not you want to be stealthy, or go through the game
with guns blazing.  (Personally, I prefer stealth mode... using your
hands to break a soldier's neck and drag them out of sight, or hitting
them with a well placed bullet from your silenced sniper rifle.  There's
a certain satisfaction on working your way through an enemy camp like a
vengeful ghost.)  The graphics are great, the story is well written, and
each boss poses its own challenge.

Max Payne... This is a film-noir style game about a New York cop who
much become part of the underworld to dismantle it.  With a very well
done, graphic novel style of telling major storyline segments, and the
introduction of "bullet time" to the video gaming world, Max Payne is a
very innovative game.  For those who like "shoot-em-up" police games
that don't consist merely of dodging and shooting, this is a game to get
your hands on.  (I haven't gotten a chance to play Max Payne 2, but the
screenshots look good, and my brother-in-law has it for the X-Box and
says that it's even better than the first one.)

WWF Smackdown - Shut Your Mouth... You can't set up a list of games like
this without including at least one fighting/wrestling style game.
While I haven't gotten the opportunity to play any of the more recent
wrestling games, this one is still a strong contender.  You can play
many different styles of matches with special conditions added in, or
even select a wrestler to play out an entire television season from the
draft picks on up.  One of the best aspects of this game is the ability
to construct a custom wrestler from scratch.  This not only includes
their costumes and color schemes, but even to physical dimensions, eye
color and shape, and even all of their wrestling moves, victory actions,
and entrance sequences.


I think that pretty much covers it for now.  *grin* Some time soon, I
think I'll do a list of games to avoid.  = P



Iggy McSnurd
(Who actually used to manage a retail video game store, and had to be
able to review games like this for customers.)





From dradamsapple at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 31 20:28:25 2003
From: dradamsapple at yahoo.com (dradamsapple)
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 20:28:25 -0000
Subject: The Best Xmas Gift!
In-Reply-To: <000401c3cfc6$1cc48020$4e60bf44@Einstein>
Message-ID: <bsvbh9+iqng@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Iggy McSnurd" 

.  So, I content myself during
> the day playing my wife's best Christmas gift... the Sims - Makin'
> Magic.  (A very fun and addictive game in its own right...)
> 
>
OH!OH!OH!

I got the Sims 'Double Deluxe' for christmas!  THIS has got to be the 
best present I've got as we have all (DH, 13 and 10 yr old)have all 
created families and are having a blast with it!!  DH literally had a 
blast, in that his 'BETTY' caught herself on fire cooking and 
incinerated herself.  DH was rather surprised when the Grim reaper 
came-a-calling.

As for me, I've created my own virtual Hogwarts, with the characters 
Harry,Hermione,Ron, Draco and Ginny.

The first nite, I couldn't get Hermione to go to sleep inthe 'girls 
room'; she went into the room where Harry and Ron where sleeping all 
on her own (why was I surprised?).  As far as Ginny and Draco were 
concerned, they would not go to bed!  I think they were caught ina 
corner behind a chair, and couldnt get themselves out of it. (Iggy, 
coulda used your Makin'Magic here)  They eventually fell asleep on 
topof each other (no, not THAT way!), standing up.  They looked 
rather cute actually.   I've since started all over since I forgot to 
give them jobs, and they were running out of money quick!  They got 
jobs now; forget what Harry's doing; Hermione works for the 
Government, and Draco is a subway muscian!!  Ha! 
I wonder if I should work this into a fanfic???

Anna . . .(who must learn to read the directions before starting 
things like this)




From dradamsapple at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 31 20:43:40 2003
From: dradamsapple at yahoo.com (dradamsapple)
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 20:43:40 -0000
Subject: The Best Xmas Gift!
In-Reply-To: <bsv6p4+9jfn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <bsvcds+ob7h@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" <annemehr at y...> 
wrote:
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "KathyK" <zanelupin at y...> 
wrote:
> 
> > Also, a couple years ago, my brother and my mother went through 
some 
> > sort of video game nostalgia phase and spent way too much money 
on 
> > ebay acquiring two NES systems--one that didn't work no matter 
how 
> > much they hit it or blew into the games--and Atari, and a Sega 
> > Genesis, as well as games to go with these systems.  
> > 
> > And what did they do with these games once they'd played them 
once 
> > or twice?  Put them in a closet to never give them another 
thought.  
> > One of these days I'm going to snag them for myself.  But for now 
> > I'm content with my Super Nintendo and Zelda to play as well as 
my 
> > PS2.  Haven't tried QWC yet, though.  I'm too worried I won't be 
> > able to stop if I start.  And Iggy, I think, is providing good 
> > evidence that this indeed will be the case once I've begun 
playing.
> > 
> > Happy New Year Everyone!
> > 
> > KathyK, poking her head out of the cave she's been lurking in
> 
> Annemehr:
> 
> All you people talking about playing video games makes me feel 
better,
> because I'm a 43-yr-old who felt strange about liking them.  I have 
a
> copy of HP - CoS for PS2 that I bought for *myself* because my kids
> decided they wanted the PS1 version.  *I,* however, wanted the PS2
> version because the graphics are so much better and Harry is, well, 
so
> much more adorable.
> 
> 'S long as I'm 'fessing up, I also like the Pokemon gameboy games 
and
> trading card game (an excellent strategy game), and for pure
> relaxation and fun, nothing beats Crash Team Racing on the PS1.
> 
> <waves to Saitaina, Iggy, KathyK and all the other gamers on the 
list>
> 
> Annemehr
> who is disappointed because no one bought her a HP calendar for 
Christmas


Annemehr,

Will put in my hubby as another over-40 gamer.  We have a 13 yr old 
who got a late start with the video-games (as I was dragging my feet 
not wanting to buy one), but now DH and the two boys (13 and 6) and 
occasionally the 10 yr daughter will all play together.  DH was a big 
gamer back in the olden days of pacman and atari.
I must say I did try, but am no way coordinated enough to manuever 
the controllers.  (I was laughing too hard one time while playing 
MarioKart to control my little guy, and I just lost it!!)

And, I'll share my HP calendar with you if you like!  I found one by 
chance during a book fair where I work, and decided to get it for 
myself, as I figured noone would get me one either. It's a desk 
calander, with a compilation of PS/SS and CoS pics in it.  It's a 
little disjointed but I guess it'll do till 2005, when hopefully, 
we'll have a new PoA one to put up!

Anna . . .(who doesn't know who's worse at being glued to the video-
tube; DH or the kids)




From groups at e-dennis.net  Wed Dec 31 21:22:03 2003
From: groups at e-dennis.net (Dennis)
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 16:22:03 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: The Best Xmas Gift!
In-Reply-To: <000501c3cfda$a1b54ee0$4e60bf44@Einstein>
Message-ID: <E1Abnmo-0006lQ-PB@kottonmouth.trouble-free.net>

First Dennis:
For brevity, I snipped Iggy's description and comments, but left his list of
titles.

___________________________
Iggy wrote:
Ok, here we go with my basic list for the all-time greatest games for
the PS2? (I'm including PS1 games, since Sony is the only company ever
to be intelligent enough to make their newer game system "backwards
compatible..." meaning that you can play games from previous systems on
the newer ones.)

Final Fantasy

Suikoden I and II

Castlevania 

Jak 2

Ratchet and Clank

Chrono Trigger

Chrono Cross

Quidditch World Cup

Metal Gear Solid

Max Payne

WWF Smackdown 
________________________


Now Dennis Again:

I have to add the sporting games Gran Turismo and the Madden football
series.  And for fighting games Soul Caliber is a must have.

_______________________________
Iggy wrote:

I think that pretty much covers it for now.? *grin* Some time soon, I
think I'll do a list of games to avoid.? = P
______________________________________


Dennis:

Oh my, that's a *much* longer list.  I'll start with Stuntman, BMX XXX, WWF
War Zone, and Auto Modellista.

I'm addicted to racing games, can you tell?  I'm 25, and so it's not a big
deal that I play so much until I get a wife to offend by it.  Of course, I
play so many games that that's not too likely!

*grin*

-Dennis





From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 31 21:37:03 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 21:37:03 -0000
Subject: The Best Xmas Gift! - NOT!
In-Reply-To: <009c01c3cf18$93476400$0201a8c0@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <bsvfhv+4mv0@eGroups.com>

What I got for Christmas was 1500! emails, only 8 of which were
actually for me. I was gone for a week. The rest were SPAM. Ain't
technology grand?

Happy Holidays to all.

bboy_mn/Steve




From CoyotesChild at charter.net  Wed Dec 31 22:23:33 2003
From: CoyotesChild at charter.net (Iggy McSnurd)
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 16:23:33 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: The Best Xmas Gift!
In-Reply-To: <bsvbh9+iqng@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000701c3cfec$bd4541d0$4e60bf44@Einstein>

> Anna:
>
> OH!OH!OH!
> 
> I got the Sims 'Double Deluxe' for christmas!  THIS has got to be the
> best present I've got as we have all (DH, 13 and 10 yr old)have all
> created families and are having a blast with it!!  DH literally had a
> blast, in that his 'BETTY' caught herself on fire cooking and
> incinerated herself.  DH was rather surprised when the Grim reaper
> came-a-calling.

Iggy here:

I had that happen to me... My suggestion is to study cooking a few times
before you try to make a regular meal... (Get to at least a three level
rating in it... which is pretty easy.)  Until then, keep them with the
"have a quick <meal>", since they use the microwave.  (I have yet to see
anyone blow up from that.)

Oh, and unless you want a ghost haunting the house, sell the urn where
Betty's ashes are in the "buy" mode.

My specialty is less in running the families (I tend to only put one
person in a household, since more than that and I tend to have problems
running multiple characters...) and more in building the houses.  I've
managed to build castles, bungalows, apartments, studios, and even a few
houses where everything exists on the second floor.  (In these cases,
there's only one small room on the bottom with the stairs to the second
floor, and the house itself is perched on top of that... much like a
mushroom on a stem.  Write to me directly if you want to know the
secret.  *grin*)

> 
> As for me, I've created my own virtual Hogwarts, with the characters
> Harry,Hermione,Ron, Draco and Ginny.
> 
> The first nite, I couldn't get Hermione to go to sleep inthe 'girls
> room'; she went into the room where Harry and Ron where sleeping all
> on her own (why was I surprised?).  As far as Ginny and Draco were
> concerned, they would not go to bed!  I think they were caught ina
> corner behind a chair, and couldnt get themselves out of it. (Iggy,
> coulda used your Makin'Magic here)  They eventually fell asleep on
> topof each other (no, not THAT way!), standing up.  They looked
> rather cute actually.   I've since started all over since I forgot to
> give them jobs, and they were running out of money quick!  They got
> jobs now; forget what Harry's doing; Hermione works for the
> Government, and Draco is a subway muscian!!  Ha!
> I wonder if I should work this into a fanfic???

Iggy here again:

I never really need to worry about money... but then, I also know the
cheat code for giving your Sim a lot of cash... *grin*  My Sims
generally don't get jobs unless I really want them to... and even then,
it's after I've build up their stats pretty high.  (BTW: The top level
of the computer career path is "Information Overlord"... you bring in
30k per pay period...  Can anyone say "Bill Gates?")

(Yes... you can write to me directly if you really want to know how to
do the cash cheat...)


Iggy McSnurd







From fc26det at aol.com  Wed Dec 31 23:50:43 2003
From: fc26det at aol.com (Potterfanme)
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 23:50:43 -0000
Subject: The Best Xmas Gift! - NOT!
In-Reply-To: <bsvfhv+4mv0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <bsvncj+tiet@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <bboy_mn at y...> wrote:
> What I got for Christmas was 1500! emails, only 8 of which were
> actually for me. I was gone for a week. The rest were SPAM. Ain't
> technology grand?
> 
> Happy Holidays to all.
> 
> bboy_mn/Steve

Ahh....but did you enjoy your time away?  Hope you did.

Susan