From nate_andersen at hotmail.com  Sat Feb  1 00:49:33 2003
From: nate_andersen at hotmail.com (vivitribal <nate_andersen@hotmail.com>)
Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2003 00:49:33 -0000
Subject: pumpkin juice
Message-ID: <b1f5it+i710@eGroups.com>



Hello everyone.  My names nate and ive been lurking for the past 
couple of months but I've got a problem.  I'm currently obsessed with 
H/Hr fanfiction and I'm about to reach my 1000th chapter of 
fanfiction.  Well I want to throw a party but i realized i dont know 
how to make pumpkin juice.  Can anyone help me out?

nate

(\___/)
(='.'=)
(")_(") The chubby bunny of doom strikes again!!!





From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Sat Feb  1 01:01:26 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve <bboy_mn@yahoo.com>)
Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2003 01:01:26 -0000
Subject: pumpkin juice
In-Reply-To: <b1f5it+i710@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b1f696+irla@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "vivitribal
<nate_andersen at h...>" <nate_andersen at h...> wrote:
> 
> 
> Hello everyone.  My names nate and ive been lurking for the past 
> couple of months but I've got a problem.  I'm currently obsessed with 
> H/Hr fanfiction and I'm about to reach my 1000th chapter of 
> fanfiction.  Well I want to throw a party but i realized i dont know 
> how to make pumpkin juice.  Can anyone help me out?
> 
> nate
> 
> (\___/)
> (='.'=)
> (")_(") The chubby bunny of doom strikes again!!!

bboy_mn:
Well, first you need a lot of pumpkins then you need a juicer.

Slice the pumpkins up, peel the outer skin off, and feed the remaining
 pumpkin pieces into the juicer. I don't think you will get a lot of
juice from each pumpkin though. It's not a real juice vegetable.

Maybe a better idea would be to think of a way to make an orange
colored punch that maybe has some pumpkin pie spices added to it. I'm
not sure what those spices are though.

Just a thought.

bboy_mn




From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Sat Feb  1 01:05:56 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve <bboy_mn@yahoo.com>)
Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2003 01:05:56 -0000
Subject: pumpkin juice (Alternative)
In-Reply-To: <b1f5it+i710@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b1f6hk+d90b@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "vivitribal
<nate_andersen at h...>" <nate_andersen at h...> wrote:
> 
> 
> Hello everyone.  My names nate and ive been lurking for the past 
> couple of months but I've got a problem.  I'm currently obsessed with 
> H/Hr fanfiction and I'm about to reach my 1000th chapter of 
> fanfiction.  Well I want to throw a party but i realized i dont know 
> how to make pumpkin juice.  Can anyone help me out?
> 
> nate
> 
> (\___/)
> (='.'=)
> (")_(") The chubby bunny of doom strikes again!!!

Another thought-

You could take some cans of pumpkin pie mix, mix one or more cans with
a lot of water or with your regular punch, and you have not pumpkin
juice but pumpkin pie juice.

Just thought.

bboy_mn





From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Sat Feb  1 01:17:26 2003
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David <dfrankiswork@netscape.net>)
Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2003 01:17:26 -0000
Subject: A Clue! (was LOON correction)
In-Reply-To: <b1efuc+4vuc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b1f776+5ddi@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "ssk7882 <skelkins at a...>" 
<skelkins at a...> wrote:

(Dodgy grammar quote from Jo snipped)

> You know, I once had an English teacher who used to pick out 
> sentences like the above whenever they would appear in my essays 
and 
> then demand that I explain to the entire class precisely *why* 
they 
> were grammatically problematic?
> 
> Sadistic man, he was.  

Oh, yes, I made my teachers suffer.  If they made a maths mistake I 
would never say, That bit's wrong.  For one thing, it might not be.  
I would just pick up the conclusion and say that I didn't quite 
understand how that chain of reasoning worked, and then just let 
them squirm.
 
However, if JKR *is* reading the list, it's possible that she would 
find being called to explain something that is merely 
*grammatically* problematic something of a relief.  ;->

David




From susannahlm at yahoo.com  Sat Feb  1 03:38:13 2003
From: susannahlm at yahoo.com (derannimer <susannahlm@yahoo.com>)
Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2003 03:38:13 -0000
Subject: Fun in the Kitchen
Message-ID: <b1fff5+305a@eGroups.com>

Steve wrote: 

>Maybe a better idea would be to think of a way to make an orange
>colored punch that maybe has some pumpkin pie spices added to it. I'm
>not sure what those spices are though.

Err. . . 

(Derannimer, who is for some reason finding this conversation very 
funny, tries to wipe the smile off her face.)

I'm not really sure how that would taste. I don't know what those 
spices would be either--cloves, I think, and maybe All-Spice--but I 
don't know what they would be like in punch. I think that all those 
spices would be quite. . . sort of. . . well, spicey. And sort of 
cloyingly sweet.   

And as for this: 

>You could take some cans of pumpkin pie mix, mix one or more cans 
>with a lot of water or with your regular punch, and you have not 
>pumpkin juice but pumpkin pie juice.

ooohhhhhhh, no. No, I don't think that will work; I don't think--Oh!

Oh, you mean *powdered mix.*

Oh, I thought you meant the goopy pumpkin filling that you get in 
cans and put in the middle of your pie.

At least, I think you mean powdered mix. 

Powdered mix would probably dissolve fine--though I have no idea what 
it would taste like--but the gooey pie filling stuff wouldn't, I 
imagine.

Though I've obviously never tried. 

Ooh.

This is intriguing. 

Kitchen Science. ; )

>Well, first you need a lot of pumpkins then you need a juicer.

>Slice the pumpkins up, peel the outer skin off, and feed the 
>remaining pumpkin pieces into the juicer. I don't think you will get 
>a lot of juice from each pumpkin though. It's not a real juice 
>vegetable.

Yeah, I bet you're right.

Well, you could. . . 

Hmmm.

Here's a question. 

Before they could buy that gooey pumpkin filling stuff, what did they 
use instead. Do you suppose. . . 

(Derannimer is hesitant to even voice this possibility, as it sounds 
quite disgusting.)

Do you suppose they used the goopy stuff *inside* of a pumpkin? You 
know, that gross goopy stuff that you hate when you carve 
jack'o'lanterns? And maybe puree'd it? I think it's technically 
speaking edible. 

Cause maybe you could puree it very thin, and then add the pumpkin 
juice from the juicer to *that.* That way, you wouldn't need as much 
of the juice.

(Derannimer starts giggling.)

But *that* hardly seems right either. At least, I certainly don't 
think so.

Maybe I can ask my mum how to make pumpkin juice. She cooks. . . 



Derannimer (who reads a lot of fanfic too, but is really impressed 
with Nate's record. And his menacing doom-bunny.) ; )





From siskiou at earthlink.net  Sat Feb  1 04:00:30 2003
From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne)
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 20:00:30 -0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: pumpkin juice (Alternative)
In-Reply-To: <b1f6hk+d90b@eGroups.com>
References: <b1f6hk+d90b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <179198317815.20030131200030@earthlink.net>



Hi,

Friday, January 31, 2003, 5:05:56 PM, bboy_mn at yahoo.com wrote:

> and you have not pumpkin
> juice but pumpkin pie juice.

I have to admit, the thought of drinking this makes me feel
slightly ill ;)

So, is there such a thing as pumpkin juice or is this
something entirely made up by JKR?

-- 
Best regards,
 Susanne                           mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Sat Feb  1 06:25:36 2003
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius <coriolan@worldnet.att.net>)
Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2003 06:25:36 -0000
Subject: HP Explains Russian History for You  (was Bad Vladimir!)
In-Reply-To: <b186tp+t5g6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b1fp90+g1m0@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Amy Z <lupinesque at y...>" 
<lupinesque at y...> wrote:
> Brian:
> 
> > > Has anyone else noticed that Hagrid looks like Josef Stalin in a
> > > beard?
>  
> Melody:
>  
> > Think they will make Madame Maxime look like Catherine the Great?
> 
> And Karkaroff can be Lenin.
> 
> Amy

Ever notice the astonishing resemblance between Harry Potter and the 
youthful Dmitri Shostakovich?

http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/Strasse/9570/shostakovich/pictures.htm
l

   - CMC




From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com  Sat Feb  1 06:48:20 2003
From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 01:48:20 EST
Subject: Songs 
Message-ID: <14c.1b263f91.2b6cc7b4@aol.com>

There are certain songs that when I am listening to them I can't help 
imagining them playing in the background of certain scenes...or even a 
character/characters singing them. For example: 

Whenever I hear a Gackt (He's a J-Rocker) song I can't help but think of 
Lucius Malfoy. I can just imagine him singing Vanilla 

Or I always picture the HHR trio singing 3 primary colours or team from 
Digimon. 

Or for some reason I always picture J-Pop music playing at the Yule Ball. 

Or whenever I hear the song 'take me out to the ball game' I think of a 
filksong that was written to that tune.    

Or I can just see someone singing the Russian version 'Eien no Melody' from 
Sailor Moon to Severus Snape. 

What about the rest of us?  

~Cassie-yes, I listen to a lot of Japanese (and Russian) music~ 
"Nanimo iranai tada anata to hitotsu ni naritai"


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Feb  1 07:27:07 2003
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston) <catlady@wicca.net>)
Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2003 07:27:07 -0000
Subject: Strange SHIP/Congrats, Shaun!/Does anyone read all these posts?
Message-ID: <b1fssb+k3ii@eGroups.com>

I see a few unpopular SHIPS have been mentioned recently, so I 
would like to add one that should be mentioned more often: 
Basilisk/Giant Squid.

Shaun Hately wrote:

<< The evening before my birthday, I found out I had been offered a 
place at the University of Melbourne to study for a Bachelor of 
Education, starting in March. >>

As I read your post, I grinned real wide and shouted "Yes!" I am 
happy for you and pleased of hear of a university exercising good 
judgment.

Anne U wrote:

<< Does anyone of the 5,700+ members of this group *every* message? 
(and if so, when do you find time to do anything else?? :-)  >>

*I* read every message on the main list, this list, announcements, 
convention, california, and a few fanfic lists. Only very rarely do I 
give up on a post without reading to the end. I read them on webview, 
I have broadband (cable modem), and I read them mostly in a great 
orgy of catching up on Friday night which *sometimes* lasts until 
mid-afternoon Saturday... 

I think I might have enough time to do things I want to do if I 
didn't waste so much of my time on this job-thing (called "working 
for a living"). As it is, there are m-lists I want to keep up with 
and (public radio) news/opinion/arts shows I want to listen to and 
magazines I want to read and books I want to read and museums I want 
to go to and cats I want to pet ... and I should have mentioned 
sleep FIRST, as it is my FAVORITE activity ... and, well, y'know, I 
got caught up on ARCHAEOLOGY and BIBLICAL ARCHAEOLOGY REVIEW and 
ARCHAEOLOGY ODYSSEY and NATURAL HISTORY but I'm almost a year behind 
on SMITHSONIAN ... a month behind on SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN ... so many 
years behind on NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC that I don't expect ever to get 
around to reading it ... and I never have time to read the fanfics 
discussed on the fanfic lists.... 

Jo Serenadust wrote:

<< Why do I do it? It's an addiction, I guess. >>

It sure is.




From belleps at october.com  Sat Feb  1 10:37:51 2003
From: belleps at october.com (Beth)
Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2003 04:37:51 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Favorite Quotes
In-Reply-To: <1044015258.410.80724.m12@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20030201043521.009fb2c0@pop.cox-internet.com>

 >Dumbledore's quotes (in canon and sometimes in fanon) remind me a
bit of those Pinky and the Brain quotes which all begin with Brain
saying, "Are you pondering what I'm pondering?"  One of my favorite
responses from Pinky is, "I think so, Brain.  But you know how
burlap chafes me."

--Barb
(off to look at the website with the Pinky and the Brain quotes...)<

Website? Do tell! <grin>

I had forgotten those. I'll get them wrong because it's been so long, but I 
remember two in particular, something like, "This is a pain that will 
linger." and "I think so, Brain. But this time YOU put the rubber pants on 
the chimpanzee."

LOL!
bel




From heidit at netbox.com  Sat Feb  1 15:06:51 2003
From: heidit at netbox.com (heiditandy <heidit@netbox.com>)
Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2003 15:06:51 -0000
Subject: Can everyone in Dallas check in re: space shuttle
Message-ID: <b1gnqb+f9ka@eGroups.com>

CNN is reporting that the Columbia broke up over Dallas, upon 
reentry.

I'm sure all of us remember that horrible January day in 1986 when 
the Challenger was destroyed on takeoff - the difference now is that 
today's catastrophe was over land, whereas that was over the 
Atlantic. 

Is everyone in Dallas ok? That's about where it was when it 
separated into at least the 5 pieces we can see on CNN.com. 

heidi, prayerfully and very distraught




From Malady579 at hotmail.com  Sat Feb  1 15:24:03 2003
From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody <Malady579@hotmail.com>)
Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2003 15:24:03 -0000
Subject: Favorite Quotes (Animaniacs)
In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20030201043521.009fb2c0@pop.cox-internet.com>
Message-ID: <b1goqj+urts@eGroups.com>

Barb wrote:
> Dumbledore's quotes (in canon and sometimes in fanon) remind me a
> bit of those Pinky and the Brain quotes which all begin with Brain
> saying, "Are you pondering what I'm pondering?"  One of my favorite
> responses from Pinky is, "I think so, Brain.  But you know how
> burlap chafes me."

bel smiled:
>I had forgotten those. I'll get them wrong because it's been so long,
>but I remember two in particular, something like, "This is a pain
>that will linger." and "I think so, Brain. But this time YOU put the
>rubber pants on the chimpanzee."


Oh, I *adore* the Animaniacs.  My brother and I would watch that show
religiously and quote it till my mom and dad forbid it around them.

Here is the website I like that has pretty much the entire list of
sketches and quotes from the site like Dot's Poetry Corner, Pinky and
the Brain quotes, and those Good Idea: Bad Idea.  There is also
transcripts of the time they played around with Shakespeare.  You need
to scroll down a bit to find all the list links, but they are the
first group listed.  Anyway- here it is....

http://members.cruzio.com/~keeper/toons.html

Hmmm....upon actually looking through that site, it does not have the
requested Pink and the Brain quotes.  Sorry, but it is a good site for
other animaniacs quotes.

The printed out webpage that I have (from 1999) of *all* the Pinky and
the Brain quotes is no longer in service, so I can't link you to
there.  Let me look a bit.

This one seems to be the most thorough:

http://www.albrechts.com/abby/quotes/pinky.html


A few of my favorites just because:

Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?
I think so, Brain, but how will we get the Spice Girls into the paella?

Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?
Ummm, I think so, Brain, but three men in a tub?  Ooh, that's unsanitary!

Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?
I think so, Brain, but can the Gummi Worms really live in peace with
the Marshmallow Chicks?

Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?
I think so, Brain, but if we have nothing to fear than fear itself,
why does Eleanor Roosevelt wear that spooky mask?
(I apologies up front to the Eleanor fans out there, but she was a
little homely.)

and last one--

Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?
I think so, Brain, but if we give peas a chance, won't the lima beans
feel left out?


Teehee.  :)
Melody

wait---can I quote a Dot's Poetry one?  I see you are nodding yes.  Good.

Roses are red
Violets are blue
That's what they say
But it just isn't true
Rose *are* red
And apples are, too
But violets are violet
Violets aren't blue
An orange is orange
But Greenland's not green
A pinky's not pink
So what does it mean?
To call something blue when it's not
We defile it
But, ah, what the heck
It is hard to rhyme violet.

Ok that is all for now.  Thanks for letting me break your day from
Harry Potter.  :)


Melody




From Malady579 at hotmail.com  Sat Feb  1 15:32:20 2003
From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody <Malady579@hotmail.com>)
Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2003 15:32:20 -0000
Subject: Can everyone in Dallas check in re: space shuttle
In-Reply-To: <b1gnqb+f9ka@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b1gpa4+tds5@eGroups.com>

Heidi wrote:
> CNN is reporting that the Columbia broke up over Dallas, upon
> reentry.
>
> I'm sure all of us remember that horrible January day in 1986 when
> the Challenger was destroyed on takeoff - the difference now is that
> today's catastrophe was over land, whereas that was over the
> Atlantic.
>
> Is everyone in Dallas ok? That's about where it was when it
> separated into at least the 5 pieces we can see on CNN.com.
>
> heidi, prayerfully and very distraught


WHAT!!!!

I am in Dallas...well Denton right above it.  Let me turn on the tv.

Oh I greatly remember the challenger.  I was in third grade, and we
were on our way to P.E. (physical education) and I saw the teachers
crying.

The news says there is reports of debree on roofs, but no one seems to
be hurt right now.  If I hear more around here, I will post more.
They are showing a trail of debree across Henderson county, Palenstine
county, and Rusk county.  The debree is still coming down, so they are
warning people to look up while they are out.  They are worried about
aircraft flying right now in the debree field.  They say it is
drifting to the east.  Really, the debree is more over east Texas than
the DFW area.

Eye witness videos are being shown.  They say it was loud, but I heard
nothing up here.

Wow.  Those poor astronauts and their families.


Melody




From Malady579 at hotmail.com  Sat Feb  1 16:01:59 2003
From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody <Malady579@hotmail.com>)
Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2003 16:01:59 -0000
Subject: Can everyone in Dallas check in re: space shuttle
In-Reply-To: <b1gpa4+tds5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b1gr1n+bbrc@eGroups.com>

Umm...before I get emails about my spelling which is and always has
been shaky especially when I am in shock....

I just realized I spelled "debris" as "debree" constantly in my last
email.  Sorry about that.  At least, it sounds the way I typed it.

And they are now saying that if you find *debris* do not touch it.
The chemicals and materials are very dangerous.  The breakup was very
close to the ground, because people witnessed the breaking up by their
naked eye.  That is quite interesting.


Melody






From tahewitt at yahoo.com  Sat Feb  1 16:32:29 2003
From: tahewitt at yahoo.com (Tyler Hewitt)
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 08:32:29 -0800 (PST)
Subject: pumpkin juice
In-Reply-To: <1044099896.462.28660.m12@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20030201163229.85991.qmail@web14203.mail.yahoo.com>

It's not juice, but I've made pumpkin smoothies, and
they're really yummy!

basically, put some cooked pumpkin (canned will work),
ice, milk or plain yogurt, sugar or honey, and a
little spice (cinnamon and nutmeg are most important,
allspice, cloves, cardamom, etc will work too) into a
blender and blend until smooth.

I've often wondered what pumpkin juice would taste
like. I love anything with pumpkin in it. I imagine it
being more like one of those sugary juice blends with
little actual pumpkin in it.


on a HP/food related note, do you think butterbeer is
an alcoholic beverage? I always imagined it was
similar to root beer, a nonalcoholic soft drink
popular in the US (I have yet to meet a European who
thinks its anything but revolting!) maybe with
butterscotch flavor. Others have pointed out to me
that the 'warm feeling' described when it is drank
indicates that it has a low alcohol content. 
Opinions?

Tyler

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com



From chrisnlorrie at yahoo.com  Sat Feb  1 18:10:19 2003
From: chrisnlorrie at yahoo.com (alora <chrisnlorrie@yahoo.com>)
Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2003 18:10:19 -0000
Subject: Shuttle explosion
Message-ID: <b1h2ib+kft0@eGroups.com>

Hello all,

I was up this morning when my mom called me about ten minutes after 
8 am.  The shuttle did explode, but I didn't hear it - there's four 
kids here with cartoons on, people asking for breakfast, etc.  I 
flipped channels and there it was.  The news broke pretty quickly.  
It's just devastating.  I remember Challenger and exactly where I 
was at the time......I know today will be the same way.  The debris 
is scattered all over the place, most of it south and east of 
Dallas.  I'm in Lewisville, which is about 20 min. north of Dallas - 
we can see the Dallas skyline pretty well.  I notices Melody has 
already checked in, she's about 20 more minutes north of me in 
Denton.  My husband is training for a marathon, and he did see it 
streaking across the sky, but he didn't know what he was looking at 
at the time.  He had his radio headphones on, so when the news broke 
he understood what he had seen.  I was surprised to see him so shook 
up when he came home.  He said it's just terrible to see that think 
that there were seven people plummeting to their deaths.  Oh, it's 
just terrible.  From what we are gathering, it actually exploded 
over the Dallas area, which is why most of the debris is not right 
around here, but a little farther south and east.  Did anyone see 
the our local radar?  There's this enormous heat line where it 
explodes and leaves a heat trail on the radar.  Pretty much along 
that heat trail is where most of the debris is.  I just keep 
thinking of the families...

Alora




From kokopoko2000 at yahoo.com  Sat Feb  1 18:43:07 2003
From: kokopoko2000 at yahoo.com (christine breen)
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 10:43:07 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Can everyone in Dallas check in re: space shuttle
In-Reply-To: <b1gpa4+tds5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20030201184307.57601.qmail@web13203.mail.yahoo.com>

I was a sophomore in highschool when challenger blew
up.  I was in art class rinsing out my brushes when I
heard. I was so upset.   It was a flashback this
morning and the first thing I thought of was 'not
again'.  It was horrid.  They showed the footage over
and over.  The cruel jokes at school about people
losing their lives were horrid.

Christine
--- "Melody <Malady579 at hotmail.com>"
<Malady579 at hotmail.com> wrote:
> Heidi wrote:
> > CNN is reporting that the Columbia broke up over
> Dallas, upon
> > reentry.
> >
> > I'm sure all of us remember that horrible January
> day in 1986 when
> > the Challenger was destroyed on takeoff - the
> difference now is that
> > today's catastrophe was over land, whereas that
> was over the
> > Atlantic.
> >
> > Is everyone in Dallas ok? That's about where it
> was when it
> > separated into at least the 5 pieces we can see on
> CNN.com.
> >
> > heidi, prayerfully and very distraught
> 
> 
> WHAT!!!!
> 
> I am in Dallas...well Denton right above it.  Let me
> turn on the tv.
> 
> Oh I greatly remember the challenger.  I was in
> third grade, and we
> were on our way to P.E. (physical education) and I
> saw the teachers
> crying.
> 
> The news says there is reports of debree on roofs,
> but no one seems to
> be hurt right now.  If I hear more around here, I
> will post more.
> They are showing a trail of debree across Henderson
> county, Palenstine
> county, and Rusk county.  The debree is still coming
> down, so they are
> warning people to look up while they are out.  They
> are worried about
> aircraft flying right now in the debree field.  They
> say it is
> drifting to the east.  Really, the debree is more
> over east Texas than
> the DFW area.
> 
> Eye witness videos are being shown.  They say it was
> loud, but I heard
> nothing up here.
> 
> Wow.  Those poor astronauts and their families.
> 
> 
> Melody
> 
> 


__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com



From judy at judyshapiro.com  Sat Feb  1 19:36:15 2003
From: judy at judyshapiro.com (Judy <judy@judyshapiro.com>)
Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2003 19:36:15 -0000
Subject: My thoughts on the Space Shuttle
In-Reply-To: <20030201184307.57601.qmail@web13203.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <b1h7jf+mrh8@eGroups.com>

Christine wrote:
> I was a sophomore in highschool when challenger blew
> up.  I was in art class rinsing out my brushes when I
> heard. I was so upset.   It was a flashback this
> morning and the first thing I thought of was 'not
> again'.  It was horrid.  They showed the footage over
> and over.  The cruel jokes at school about people
> losing their lives were horrid.

I found out about Columbia when my husband phoned to tell me.  (He had
gone over to our "new" house to do construction work.) Tom (my
husband) rarely gets upset about anything, but both of us are quite
upset about this. Tom feels that space exploration is vital for the
long-term future of the human race. In addition to the tragic loss of
the crew, we're afraid this will set the space program way back.  NASA
never recovered from the loss of the Challenger.

I remember hearing about the Challenger disaster; I had gone from my
office to the cafeteria in the building where I worked.  Everyone
there was standing in little clusters, talking in whispers. A radio
was playing and the announcer was saying how tragic it was that all
the school children had been there to see Christa McAuliffe and had
witnessed the disaster. That's how I knew something had happened to
the shuttle. 

As for the jokes people tell about disasters, I think sometimes they
are just a coping mechanism, rather than a sign that people don't care
about the disaster. I'm the sort of person who gets really upset about
tragedies that happen to strangers (I spent all of yesterday upset
about poor little Jacob Corpuz, the boy abandoned in Utah, because he
keeps talking about his "mommy" and it is likely that she is dead.)
But, I laugh at morbid jokes despite being upset -- or perhaps
*because* I'm upset. 

-- Judy




From rvotaw at i-55.com  Sat Feb  1 19:34:59 2003
From: rvotaw at i-55.com (rvotaw at i-55.com)
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 13:34:59 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Can everyone in Dallas check in re: space shuttle
Message-ID: <33281056.1044128099185.JavaMail.root@webmail.i-55.com>

Christine wrote:

> I was a sophomore in highschool when challenger blew<BR>
> up. I was in art class rinsing out my brushes when I<BR>
> heard. I was so upset. It was a flashback this<BR>
> morning and the first thing I thought of was 'not<BR>
> again'. It was horrid. They showed the footage over<BR>
> and over. The cruel jokes at school about people<BR>
> losing their lives were horrid.<BR>


I can't remember much about the Challenger, I was about 8 or 9 when that 
happened.  I remember hearing it over and over, and being so young found it odd 
that the media almost seemed to enjoy talking about it repeatedly.  For hours. 
Today I spent about two hours watching coverage of the Columbia disaster on 
CNN, and finally changed the channel because it got so depressing.  Just the 
fact that they are showing the break up of the Columbia over and over again is 
sad.  If it were my mom or dad in that ship I would want it treated with more 
respect.  I know they're doing their job, but still.  I did channel back to 
watch President Bush's speech, which I promptly cried through.  I never cry, go 
figure.

Richelle

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From macloudt at yahoo.co.uk  Sat Feb  1 19:54:15 2003
From: macloudt at yahoo.co.uk (Mary Ann <macloudt@yahoo.co.uk>)
Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2003 19:54:15 -0000
Subject: Birthday Greetings!
Message-ID: <b1h8l7+msq5@eGroups.com>

:::::hangs up balloons and streamers and changes calendar to February 
(something I usually forget!):::::

It's the start of a new month, and already we have a birthday:  Allen 
V.!  Greetings can be sent to the List or to bandguyhp at yahoo.com

Have a lovely day, Allen, and have fun!

Mary Ann
(TBE)




From dicentra at xmission.com  Sat Feb  1 20:17:29 2003
From: dicentra at xmission.com (dicentra63 <dicentra@xmission.com>)
Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2003 20:17:29 -0000
Subject: My thoughts on the Space Shuttle
In-Reply-To: <b1h7jf+mrh8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b1ha0p+p63@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Judy <judy at j...>" <judy at j...>
wrote:
> Christine wrote:
> > It was horrid.  They showed the footage over
> > and over.  The cruel jokes at school about people
> > losing their lives were horrid.
> 
> As for the jokes people tell about disasters, I think sometimes they
> are just a coping mechanism, rather than a sign that people don't 
> care about the disaster. I'm the sort of person who gets really upset 
> about tragedies that happen to strangers. [snip]
> But, I laugh at morbid jokes despite being upset -- or perhaps
> *because* I'm upset. 
> 
I was in Medell?n, Colombia when Challenger exploded.  I came home for
lunch, and the people I lived with were hysterical: "?Se estall? el
cohete! The rocket blew up!"  They showed it over and over there, too.

But I was totally out of the loop when it came to the investigations
and such.  My American friends were sure it was Russian sabotage,
because "no way would NASA make a mistake."  I was also out of the
loop with regard to the jokes.  In Colombia, they didn't tell morbid
jokes about it because that's not what they do.

When I returned to the U.S. a few months later, my family regaled me
with all those jokes at once and I was totally appalled.  In Colombia
it was always treated with such gravity--and yet here, where it
happened, it was a joke!  My sense of humor had changed from being in
a foreign country, and now I don't see the jokes as appalling, but the
cultural difference is very interesting indeed.

--Dicentra




From editor at texas.net  Sat Feb  1 21:02:36 2003
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist)
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 15:02:36 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] My thoughts on the Space Shuttle
References: <b1h7jf+mrh8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <001b01c2ca35$3ff20be0$7105a6d8@texas.net>

Judy said:

> In addition to the tragic loss of
> the crew, we're afraid this will set the space program way back.

It can't set it too far back, at least not in the short run; there's people
on the space station to retrieve. They can't ground the fleet on the
instant, and having a successful shuttle run on the heels of this may be a
very good thing. Cross your fingers for that successful run.

~Amanda




From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Sat Feb  1 21:20:25 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve <bboy_mn@yahoo.com>)
Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2003 21:20:25 -0000
Subject: pumpkin juice (Alternative)
In-Reply-To: <179198317815.20030131200030@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <b1hdmp+n1if@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Susanne <siskiou at e...> wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Friday, January 31, 2003, 5:05:56 PM, bboy_mn at y... wrote:
> 
> > and you have not pumpkin
> > juice but pumpkin pie juice.
> 
> I have to admit, the thought of drinking this makes me feel
> slightly ill ;)
> 
> So, is there such a thing as pumpkin juice or is this
> something entirely made up by JKR?
> 
> -- 
> Best regards,
>  Susanne                           


bboy_mn:

Slighly ill? Why, it would just taste like liquid pumpkin pie? Now
LOOKING AT IT, that might be a little gross. Things that are nasty
brown, do not make appealing looking drinks, but as far as taste, I
like pumpkin pie so I think it would be OK.

Of course, the is pumpkin juice (pumpkin + juicer = pumpkin juice;
although you will probably need to add some sugar). 

When we were kids and we would carving our pumpkins, we alway trimmed
of pieces of raw pumpkin flesh and ate them while we carved, I thought
it tasted good. So pumpkin juice with a little sugar and perhaps some
additional apple juice, a dash of cinnimon would probably be OK.

But remember, pumpkins aren't really juicy, so plan on a lot of
pumpkin for very little juice.

It was just a suggestion.

bboy_mn





From drednort at alphalink.com.au  Sat Feb  1 21:29:51 2003
From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately)
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 08:29:51 +1100
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] My thoughts on the Space Shuttle
In-Reply-To: <001b01c2ca35$3ff20be0$7105a6d8@texas.net>
Message-ID: <3E3CD6FF.12435.84F998A@localhost>

On 1 Feb 2003 at 15:02, Amanda Geist wrote:

> Judy said:
> 
> > In addition to the tragic loss of
> > the crew, we're afraid this will set the space program way back.
> 
> It can't set it too far back, at least not in the short run; there's people
> on the space station to retrieve. They can't ground the fleet on the
> instant, and having a successful shuttle run on the heels of this may be a
> very good thing. Cross your fingers for that successful run.

I'm afraid I believe it can. There is another option to bring the astronauts on the USS 
back to earth - use of the Soyuz capsule attached to the station. If the only way to bring 
the astronauts back from the station was a shuttle flight, such a flight would most 
certainly occur but there is another option.

I think it's most likely there will be a retrieval flight by the shuttle - but there's no certainty 
of that.

Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought
Shaun Hately |webpage: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html
(ISTJ)       |email: drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200
"You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in
common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter
the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen
to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who:
The Face of Evil | Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia




From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Sat Feb  1 21:35:23 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve <bboy_mn@yahoo.com>)
Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2003 21:35:23 -0000
Subject: pumpkin juice
In-Reply-To: <20030201163229.85991.qmail@web14203.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <b1heir+pc4b@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Tyler Hewitt <tahewitt at y...>
wrote:
> It's not juice, but I've made pumpkin smoothies, and
> they're really yummy!
> - - - - - - - - - -

Brilliant! That might be a good way for this person to make a pumpkin
punch.
bboy_mn

> 
> 
> on a HP/food related note, do you think butterbeer is
> an alcoholic beverage? I always imagined it was
> similar to root beer, a nonalcoholic soft drink
> popular in the US (I have yet to meet a European who
> thinks its anything but revolting!) maybe with
> butterscotch flavor. Others have pointed out to me
> that the 'warm feeling' described when it is drank
> indicates that it has a low alcohol content. 
> Opinions?
> 
> Tyler


bboy_mn:
Define alcoholic. In Britain, most fermented beverages do have a trace
of alcohol in them. However, if the final product has 0.5% of less
alcohol, it is still considered a soft drink and could be sold to
anyone without restriction. 

Many natural Ginger Ale/Beers are fermented, and some root beers are
fermented as well, so they could have a trace of alcohol.

As far as butterbeer, since the house-elf Winky becomes intoxicated
from it, I have to assume it is fermented and therefore has a fraction
of a percent of alcohol.

As far as taste, there are a variety of Butterbeer recipies out there,
you can search the internet for them. They are usually, some variation
of butterscotch flavored root beer, and generally drinkable but
nothing special.

As far as I know, there is no REAL butterbeer. JKR once describe it as
a sickly sweet butterscotch flavored drink. But I don't ever recall
seening a butterscotch flavored soft drink.

If you like butterscotch, it could be good.

How to make something as close to the real thing as possible. Take
sweet butterscotch ice cream topping (the best quality you can find)
and mix it with carbonated water.  This will dilute the flavor, so now
you have to get concentrated butterscotch flavoring from the baking
section of the grocery store. Add enough to bring the flavor back up
to full strength, then add suger until it is as sweet as you can stand
it, maybe a dash of spice or two (cinnamon or whatever), and there you
have it.

Just a thought.

bboy_mn




From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Feb  1 22:07:54 2003
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston) <catlady@wicca.net>)
Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2003 22:07:54 -0000
Subject: Birthday Greetings!
In-Reply-To: <b1h8l7+msq5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b1hgfq+nre7@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Mary Ann <macloudt at y...>" 
<macloudt at y...> wrote:
 
> It's the start of a new month, and already we have a birthday:  
> Allen V.!  

Happy Birthday, Allen! Don't let the memories of "Columbia" mess it 
up for you in future years.

> Greetings can be sent to the List or to bandguyhp at y...

Does the name "band guy" indicate that you're related to Alicia-Sue 
Spinnet-Brown? (That was a *joke*) 





From susannahlm at yahoo.com  Sat Feb  1 23:46:03 2003
From: susannahlm at yahoo.com (derannimer <susannahlm@yahoo.com>)
Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2003 23:46:03 -0000
Subject: My thoughts on the Space Shuttle
Message-ID: <b1hm7r+4u17@eGroups.com>

Judy: In addition to the tragic loss of the crew, we're afraid this 
will set the space program way back. 

Me: Yeah. And right when NASA's announcing that they could build a 
rocket that could make the trip to Mars inside of a couple of months 
too. 


Derannimer




From siskiou at earthlink.net  Sun Feb  2 01:06:33 2003
From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne)
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 17:06:33 -0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: pumpkin juice (Alternative)
In-Reply-To: <b1hdmp+n1if@eGroups.com>
References: <b1hdmp+n1if@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <2822878223.20030201170633@earthlink.net>



Hi,

Saturday, February 01, 2003, 1:20:25 PM, bboy_mn at yahoo.com wrote:

> It was just a suggestion.

I know.
No offence was intended :)

I was just reading along, and it's mostly the
thickness/texture that makes me cringe.
And I grew up in Germany and never had pumpkin pie until I
moved to the US.
I guess I just never developed a taste for it, but our 2
bunnies sure love it (100% pumpkin, no spices) <g>.
It's their evening treat.

And then I just wondered if you can actually buy pumpkin
juice anywhere.

-- 
Best regards,
 Susanne                           mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net




From illyana at mindspring.com  Sun Feb  2 01:26:32 2003
From: illyana at mindspring.com (illyana delorean)
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 18:26:32 -0700
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Birthday Greetings!
In-Reply-To: <b1hgfq+nre7@eGroups.com>
References: <b1hgfq+nre7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a05200a00ba6223e01548@[10.0.1.11]>

>
>Happy Birthday, Allen! Don't let the memories of "Columbia" mess it
>up for you in future years.
>

i agree: happy birthday! just be glad this date won't be as infamous 
as my birthday, september 11, because everyone gets this awful look 
on their face when i am carded (and they all love to remind me of 
just how lucky i am!).

anyway, enough about me: what did you get for your birthday? yummy 
cake, i hope!

illyana
-- 
S1.3 MIL+++ RWG++# FRI++ CBG++ P&S-- f++/+++ n- $++++ 9F13, 1F22, 
2F13, 3F02, 3F05, 4F01, 4F08, 4F11, 4F19 F1980

HPGCv1
a22 e+ x+* Rm Ri HP4 S+++ Mo++ HG+/VK++ HaP+/SS+++& FGW++ DM++& VC-- 
GG-- CD+ VK++ SS+++& PT--- AF-- MM++ RL++ O+m FAo F- Sl FHo SfD

"What's the point in having a Honda if you can't show it off?" - 
Superintendent Chalmers

visit my livejournal! http://www.livejournal.com/users/illyanadmc



From mdemeran at hotmail.com  Sun Feb  2 02:09:22 2003
From: mdemeran at hotmail.com (Meg Demeranville <mdemeran@hotmail.com>)
Date: Sun, 02 Feb 2003 02:09:22 -0000
Subject: Where were you? (Was:Can everyone in Dallas check in re: space shuttle)
In-Reply-To: <20030201184307.57601.qmail@web13203.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <b1huki+53uq@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, christine breen 
<kokopoko2000 at y...> wrote:
> I was a sophomore in highschool when challenger blew
> up.  I was in art class rinsing out my brushes when I
> heard. I was so upset.   It was a flashback this
> morning and the first thing I thought of was 'not
> again'.  It was horrid.  They showed the footage over
> and over.  The cruel jokes at school about people
> losing their lives were horrid.
> 
> Christine

I was in the first grade when the Challenger blew up. It's actually 
one of the first memories I have of my school days. Somehow, we won 
the right to see the Challenger launch over any of the other grades. 
I remember sitting on that classroom floor with my best friend and 
watching the television. I remember we were all kidding around and 
laughing because it was really cool that we were the ones to watch 
it. And then it blew up. The classroom got really quiet at that 
point and I everyone was just stunned. I remember them switching the 
TV off and just trying to get us to focus on classwork. That was the 
first thing I thought about this morning when I saw it on the news. 
My thoughts and prayers go out to everyone affected by this most 
recent tragedy. 

Meg (who has to focus on Biochem, but who's thoughts are miles away)

Read the untold story of life as a first year medical student at:
As The Scalpel Turns - http://www.livejournal.com/users/megd




From ShelaghC at aol.com  Sun Feb  2 02:37:42 2003
From: ShelaghC at aol.com (ShelaghCol <ShelaghC@aol.com>)
Date: Sun, 02 Feb 2003 02:37:42 -0000
Subject: OT - Travel certificate for sale (*really* OT)
Message-ID: <b1i09m+3g59@eGroups.com>

Sorry for the extraordinarily OT posting - I have a travel 
certificate that's due to expire soon and I'd rather sell it than 
just let it go.

It's for a ticket on USAirways. Travel must be *completed* by March 
10th. I've talked to a travel agency and there's no way around that 
deadline.

Certificate is good for travel throughout North America - including 
Canada, Alaska and Hawaii (but not Mexico).

I'd like to get at least $200 for it if at all possible, but I can be 
flexible.

User might have to pay tax and security fees, but other than that, 
the plane ticket would be free. (Shouldn't be more than $20 or so 
total.)

If you're interested, drop me an email at ShelaghC(AT)aol.com 
(replace the "(AT)" with the @ symbol.

Shelagh




From pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no  Sun Feb  2 03:01:15 2003
From: pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no (pengolodh_sc <pengolodh_sc@yahoo.no>)
Date: Sun, 02 Feb 2003 03:01:15 -0000
Subject: My thoughts on the Space Shuttle
In-Reply-To: <001b01c2ca35$3ff20be0$7105a6d8@texas.net>
Message-ID: <b1i1lr+7qan@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter, "Amanda Geist" wrote:
> Judy said:
> 
> > In addition to the tragic loss of
> > the crew, we're afraid this will set the space program way back.
> 
> It can't set it too far back, at least not in the short run;
> there's people on the space station to retrieve. They can't ground
> the fleet on the instant, and having a successful shuttle run on
> the heels of this may be a very good thing. Cross your fingers for
> that successful run.
> 
> ~Amanda

The people on the International Space Station have supplies to last 
them until July, and a Soyuz space-craft they can use to return to 
Earth.

Best regards
Christian Stub?
(who barely had time to learn about this, before he had to go 
elsewhere for nigh on nine hours, and so is just now catching up.)




From jayemelle at earthlink.net  Sun Feb  2 05:44:13 2003
From: jayemelle at earthlink.net (tesseract197 <jayemelle@earthlink.net>)
Date: Sun, 02 Feb 2003 05:44:13 -0000
Subject: Where were you? (Was:Can everyone in Dallas check in re: space shuttle)
In-Reply-To: <b1huki+53uq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b1ib7d+109eq@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Meg Demeranville 
<mdemeran at h...>" <mdemeran at h...> wrote:
> I was in the first grade when the Challenger blew up. It's actually 
> one of the first memories I have of my school days. Somehow, we won 
> the right to see the Challenger launch over any of the other 
grades. 
> I remember sitting on that classroom floor with my best friend and 
> watching the television. I remember we were all kidding around and 
> laughing because it was really cool that we were the ones to watch 
> it. And then it blew up. The classroom got really quiet at that 
> point and I everyone was just stunned. I remember them switching 
the 
> TV off and just trying to get us to focus on classwork. That was 
the 
> first thing I thought about this morning when I saw it on the news. 
> My thoughts and prayers go out to everyone affected by this most 
> recent tragedy. 
> 
> Meg (who has to focus on Biochem, but who's thoughts are miles away)

I was in kindergarten when the Challenger tragedy happened, and I've 
never been sure if I really remember it happening or if I've just 
heard about it so much that I've built up a recollection over the 
years.  I've heard my mom say countless times that the only way she 
could explain the horror of the situation to me is that there was a 
teacher on board who had a little girl like me, and that that little 
girl would never be able to hug her mommy again.  That was pretty 
darn terrifying for a 6-year-old to hear--even now, at 23, it's an 
upsetting thought.  How terrible that there are now 7 more families 
faced with that unthinkable reality.

Tess
who works at a newspaper and has been inundated with news reports 
about Columbia all day long and was dangerously close to becoming 
desensitized to it before checking in here




From HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com  Sun Feb  2 05:47:07 2003
From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com (HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 2 Feb 2003 05:47:07 -0000
Subject: Reminder - Weekly Chat 
Message-ID: <1044164827.69.83787.m10@yahoogroups.com>


We would like to remind you of this upcoming event.

Weekly Chat 

Date: Sunday, February 2, 2003 
Time: All Day

Hi everyone! Don't forget, chat happens today, 11 am Pacific, 2
pm Eastern, 7 pm UK time. Go into any Yahoo chat room and type
/join HP:1 
For further info, see the Humongous BigFile, section 3.3.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/hbfile.html#33

Hope to see you there! 

 





From dradamsapple at yahoo.com  Sun Feb  2 06:12:10 2003
From: dradamsapple at yahoo.com (dradamsapple <dradamsapple@yahoo.com>)
Date: Sun, 02 Feb 2003 06:12:10 -0000
Subject: Where were you? (Was:Can everyone in Dallas check in re: space shuttle)
In-Reply-To: <b1huki+53uq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b1icrq+pcs1@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Meg Demeranville 
<mdemeran at h...>" <mdemeran at h...> wrote:
> 
> 
> I was in the first grade when the Challenger blew up. It's actually 
> one of the first memories I have of my school days. Somehow, we won 
> the right to see the Challenger launch over any of the other 
grades. 
> I remember sitting on that classroom floor with my best friend and 
> watching the television. I remember we were all kidding around and 
> laughing because it was really cool that we were the ones to watch 
> it. And then it blew up. The classroom got really quiet at that 
> point and I everyone was just stunned. I remember them switching 
the 
> TV off and just trying to get us to focus on classwork. That was 
the 
> first thing I thought about this morning when I saw it on the news. 
> My thoughts and prayers go out to everyone affected by this most 
> recent tragedy. 
> 
> Meg (who has to focus on Biochem, but who's thoughts are miles away)
> 
> Read the untold story of life as a first year medical student at:
> As The Scalpel Turns - http://www.livejournal.com/users/megd


Meg, I must tell you, you woke up some of my brain cells when you 
talked about watching the Challenger on tv in school.

I remember watching the Watergate hearings when I was in school.  I 
can't remember what year it was (a looong time ago!) only that it was 
in black and white (our school tv's were B&W), and it was soooo 
boring!  We knew that it was historical and all that but it took all  
my  will power to keep  my eyes open in class!

As for the Challenger accident, I remember it all too well.
I was at work, talking on the phone to  one of my friends who was 
hospitalized, when  she stopped talking and gasped as one  of the 
nurses ran into her room and turned the tv on.  At excatly the same 
time, one of our fellow coworkers  who was just starting her shift 
(it happened just before noon time) came in and stopped short, 
announcing to everyone that the shuttle blew up.  I remember standing 
there, dumbfounded, with my girlfriend on the phone, also shocked, 
and my coworker, pale as a ghost, talking so fast that we had to 
interrupt her to  make any sense of what she was saying, all the 
while, others were scrambling to find *the* one radio we had, and 
have a listen.
It was extra sad for us as I'm in New England and Christa McAuliffe 
being from New Hampshire was a little too close for comfort.
UUGGHH!  I still get goose bumps.  

My sympathy goes to the familes.

Anna . . .




From belleps at october.com  Sun Feb  2 07:07:35 2003
From: belleps at october.com (Beth)
Date: Sun, 02 Feb 2003 01:07:35 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Where were you? (Dallas check-in)
In-Reply-To: <1044166337.2561.75888.m5@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20030202010123.009f9810@pop.cox-internet.com>

I'm well out of the way in Austin, but the reports are showing so far that 
no one's been injured by falling debris. I can't believe that with 
thousands of chunks of metal falling from the sky, it missed everyone. It's 
hard to see blessings in this, but hundreds could have been killed. I'm 
saying prayers for those who were lost and thanks for all of those still 
with us.

I was working during the Challenger accident. Someone called our workplace 
to let us all know, but we didn't have a radio or TV. I saw the film that 
evening on the news.

The thing that I remember watching on black-and-white TVs in my elementary 
school classroom was the first man walking on the moon. Yep, I'm that old. 
<grin>

Sigh.

bel




From the.gremlin at verizon.net  Sun Feb  2 08:32:55 2003
From: the.gremlin at verizon.net (the.gremlin at verizon.net)
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 2:32:55 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Can everyone in Dallas check in re: space shuttle
Message-ID: <20030202083255.COGQ20431.pop016.verizon.net@[192.168.129.98]>

heidi:
"CNN is reporting that the Columbia broke up over Dallas, upon reentry.

I'm sure all of us remember that horrible January day in 1986 when the Challenger was destroyed on takeoff - the difference now is that today's catastrophe was over land, whereas that was over the Atlantic. 

Is everyone in Dallas ok? That's about where it was when it 
separated into at least the 5 pieces we can see on CNN.com."

I was 2 years old when Challenger was destroyed, and the only thing I remember about that year was the big earthquake in LA.

OTOH, my mother called this morning and told me, so I turned the on CSPAN with closed-caption because roommate came in late this morning. I almost did the hand-over-mouth thing when I first saw the footage of the shuttle breaking up, and, had I been a more emotional person, I would have started crying when they started listing the crew members, and the children they left behind.

The one thing I can't stand is how the media manipulates us. On the Open Forum of my campus's e-mail program, people were commenting how more people die in car accidents every day, and how the astronauts weren't really heroes.

It all depends on your definition of hero. Maybe a hero is following your dream. These astronaust knew the risks of their job, and they were willing to take them. They died following a dream. 

I just completely lost my train of thought. I have felt more for this tragedy than 9/11, where I wished I could have been in a newspaper room somewhere, going through reports. I was very shocked when my idolized English teacher completely threw out his lesson plan and watched the news the whole class period.

-Acire

   


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From Zephyrjaid at aol.com  Sun Feb  2 09:42:44 2003
From: Zephyrjaid at aol.com (zephyrjaid7 <Zephyrjaid@aol.com>)
Date: Sun, 02 Feb 2003 09:42:44 -0000
Subject: Recipes for Pumpkin Juice
Message-ID: <b1ip6k+csfk@eGroups.com>

Here are three different recipes for pumpkin juice:

***
INGREDIENTS:
2 cups diced pumpkin
2 cups apple juice
1 teaspoon honey
1/2 cup pineapple juice

DIRECTIONS:
Juice the pumpkin and add the pumpkin juice to the pineapple and 
apple juices. Add honey and blend in blender. Serve iced.

***
INGREDIENTS:
1/2 cup regular instant tea powder
1 cup orange-flavored breakfast drink powder
1 1/2 cups sugar
4 tsp. pumpkin pie spice

DIRECTIONS:
Mix above ingredients together. Store in air tight container. 

For 1 hot drink: Dissolve 2 heaping teaspoons of the mix in 1 cup hot 
water.

For cold drinks: Boil 8 cups of water. Remove from heat and add 1 cup 
of the mix. Stir to dissolve. Put in refrigerator until cold. 

***
Shred 1 1/2--2 cups of pumpkin. Boil water, add the shredded pumpkin, 
a tablespoon of pumpkin spice, and a teaspoon of fresh nutmeg. Let it 
simmer on a very low heat for about two hours and put in refrigerator 
until cold. Serve with ice. 

***

Zeph




From Malady579 at hotmail.com  Sun Feb  2 14:11:55 2003
From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody <Malady579@hotmail.com>)
Date: Sun, 02 Feb 2003 14:11:55 -0000
Subject: Dallas check-in
In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20030202010123.009f9810@pop.cox-internet.com>
Message-ID: <b1j8vb+doo0@eGroups.com>

bel wrote:
>I'm well out of the way in Austin, but the reports are showing so far
>that no one's been injured by falling debris. I can't believe that
>with thousands of chunks of metal falling from the sky, it missed
>everyone.  It's hard to see blessings in this, but hundreds could
>have been killed.  I'm saying prayers for those who were lost and
>thanks for all of those still with us.


Yes, we are lucky it fell over much of east Texas because that area is
not as populated.  It is mostly farms, ranches, and small (very small)
towns, so the propability of the debris hitting anyone is greatly
reduced compared to the debris falling on a city like Dallas.

But even still, I am greatly surprised *no one* was hurt, *no* house
was destroyed, not even a church lost a steeple.  With millions of
pieces falling down, and there had to be some big chunks out there
that fell, all I saw on tv were chucks no bigger that 4' x 4'.

I think we were lucky that the explosion happened after the sun rised,
the weather was perfect, the sky was clear, and everyone was expecting
it to fall.


Melody




From judy at judyshapiro.com  Sun Feb  2 14:34:25 2003
From: judy at judyshapiro.com (Judy <judy@judyshapiro.com>)
Date: Sun, 02 Feb 2003 14:34:25 -0000
Subject: Where were you? (Dallas check-in)
In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20030202010123.009f9810@pop.cox-internet.com>
Message-ID: <b1ja9h+362d@eGroups.com>

bel said:
> the reports are showing so far that 
> no one's been injured by falling debris. 
> I can't believe that with 
> thousands of chunks of metal 
> falling from the sky, it missed
> everyone....

Well, this part isn't all that surprising. Texas has a population of
about 23 million and an area of about 700,000 square kilometers. By my
calculations, that is one person per 35,000 square meters,
approximately. And, most of the people were inside; most of the debris
fluttered down, without enough force to get through a roof.  There are
no recorded instances of a person ever being killed by falling space
debris, despite all the meteorites that hit Earth every day.  (One
person did get a bruised thigh from a meteorite that fell through her
roof, a number of years ago.)

I think people find this so surprising because airplane crashes often
*do* kill people on the ground. The difference is, airplanes are
headed for population centers. (Most airports are near cities.)  So,
airplane crashes often happen in very crowded areas. (And it's even
worse with a deliberate attempt to crash an airplane into a crowded
area, as happened on 9/11.)  But, most random spots on the Earth are
pretty much devoid of people.

What I find remarkable is that one of the mission patches was found,
intact, all by itself.  Just sitting in the grass, no clothes or
anything attached.  I found this very poignant. CNN had a photo of the
patch, which I downloaded.  The picture is currently at:
http://i.cnn.net/cnn/2003/TECH/space/02/02/shuttle
.columbia/story.patch.found.jpg

-- Judy, feeling quite sad




From ression at hotmail.com  Sun Feb  2 15:25:35 2003
From: ression at hotmail.com (ER <ression@hotmail.com>)
Date: Sun, 02 Feb 2003 15:25:35 -0000
Subject: Where were you? (Dallas check-in)
In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20030202010123.009f9810@pop.cox-internet.com>
Message-ID: <b1jd9f+so3d@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Beth <belleps at o...> wrote:
> 
> The thing that I remember watching on black-and-white TVs in my 
elementary 
> school classroom was the first man walking on the moon. Yep, I'm 
that old. 
> <grin>

Ah, yes, I remember it well too, though watching at home, not school! 
And poor old Neil Armstrong, fluffing his big line :)

Another (near) tragedy that I also remember very vividly is the 
Apollo-13 accident. Our house-teacher asked all to pray for the safe 
delivery of the astronauts and then we were all called into the 
assembly hall where the television was on (a rare enough event itself 
in the UK in those days). The headmaster explained what had happened 
and said that the men were going to get back OK, and then he lead us 
all in more prayers. I suppose the fact that the men weren't yet 
dead, but might be soon, made it a lot "worse" than something that 
had happened and was "over". I guess the world agonised for a couple 
of days ...

ER







From ression at hotmail.com  Sun Feb  2 15:38:25 2003
From: ression at hotmail.com (ER <ression@hotmail.com>)
Date: Sun, 02 Feb 2003 15:38:25 -0000
Subject: Does anyone read all these posts?
In-Reply-To: <b1fssb+k3ii@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b1je1h+8nl0@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince 
Winston) <catlady at w...>" <catlady at w...> wrote:

>*I* read every message on the main list, this list, announcements, 
convention, california, and a few fanfic lists. <snip> I read them on 
webview, 

Webview? Some useful Yahoo-group reading tool? I get daily email 
digests (rather than separate email messages, which seems totally 
unmanageable). I find I can (speed) read my way through these and 
skip over the topics I'm not interested in (as if!) and concentrate 
on the more interesting threads. Doesn't take too long that way. 
However, I have to confess that I gave up totally on the main forum - 
just way too much stuff to digest in one lifetime. I'm very impressed 
by people that have enough concentration and focus to get through it 
all!

 
>I think I might have enough time to do things I want to do if I  
didn't waste so much of my time on this job-thing (called "working 
for a living").

Work, the curse of the drinking-classes. Why aren't I independently 
wealthy, mutter ;) 


> and I should have mentioned sleep FIRST, as it is my FAVORITE 
activity

Ah, me too! A good ten hours a day makes you happy and guarantees a 
long life, I reckon. Of course you don't get to see quite as much of 
it as other folk!


> a month behind on SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN 

I wouldn't worry about that - SA is the "most-bought, least-read" 
scientific magazine. The others sound interesting though.


ER




From rvotaw at i-55.com  Sun Feb  2 19:12:16 2003
From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw)
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 13:12:16 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter]Butterbeer (was Re: pumpkin juice)/ Odd dream
References: <20030201163229.85991.qmail@web14203.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <011701c2caef$007b72c0$f09fcdd1@RVotaw>

Tyler wrote:

> on a HP/food related note, do you think butterbeer is
> an alcoholic beverage? I always imagined it was
> similar to root beer, a nonalcoholic soft drink

I've always imagined butterbeer as Cream Soda.  I'm not entirely sure why, but that was the first thing to come to mind the first time I read it, and I've thought of it as that ever since.  So nonalcoholic, in my opinion.

On another note, I had an odd dream last night.  I dreamed I was in a bookstore in early June.  And Order of Phoenix was out on a table.  Four versions: Adults, Childrens, Spanish, and British edition.  The covers were designed like the Lemony Snicket books.  In my dream I remember thinking that when I checked out they would probably keep the book and hold it until June 21st.  So while I was standing in line I checked to see how many pages it was.  906.  Imagine, that's the only thing I wanted to know.  Anyway, I checked out, and they didn't keep the book.  I walked out of the store in a daze, rushed home, and started reading it.  I woke up before I got very far along, but I remember reading about the person laying face down in the flower bed.  Seems like it was a Weasley.  Either Fred or George, I think.   Anyway, it was a rather odd dream.  Interesting, though. 

Richelle


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From zeff8 at attbi.com  Mon Feb  3 03:38:27 2003
From: zeff8 at attbi.com (Prof_chase)
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 22:38:27 -0500
Subject: Hogwarts extream website
Message-ID: <001d01c2cb35$b68c04d0$9c01f50c@mac>

Has anyone had any luck with the Hogwarts extream website?
Seems an adult can't get "sorted" or do much on that website..




Join HP collectables, do discuss collecting various HP items.
Subscribe:  HPcollectables-subscribe at yahoogroups.com 
Unsubscribe:  HPcollectables-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com 
List owner:  HPcollectables-owner at yahoogroups.com 




From dehavensangel at hotmail.com  Mon Feb  3 19:52:30 2003
From: dehavensangel at hotmail.com (shinesse <dehavensangel@hotmail.com>)
Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 19:52:30 -0000
Subject: Hogwarts extream website
In-Reply-To: <001d01c2cb35$b68c04d0$9c01f50c@mac>
Message-ID: <b1mh9u+gal3@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Prof_chase" <zeff8 at a...> 
wrote:
> Has anyone had any luck with the Hogwarts extream website?
> Seems an adult can't get "sorted" or do much on that website..

I just joined the site last night. I read the FAQ and they 
say "sorting is not aviable at the moment". Here is the address for 
the FAQ. http://www.hexrpg.com/faq.phtml 




From susannahlm at yahoo.com  Mon Feb  3 22:12:14 2003
From: susannahlm at yahoo.com (derannimer <susannahlm@yahoo.com>)
Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 22:12:14 -0000
Subject: Odd Dream
Message-ID: <b1mpfu+5tg7@eGroups.com>

Richelle:

>In my dream I remember thinking that when I checked out they would 
>probably keep the book and hold it until June 21st. So while I
>was standing in line I checked to see how many pages it was. 906. 

Odd dream, nothing--*cool* dream, more like!

But if the book turns out to have 906 pages. . . 

Well. ; )


Derannimer 




From ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com  Tue Feb  4 02:52:42 2003
From: ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com (Petra Pan)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 18:52:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: HP audio versions
In-Reply-To: <b17gt7+kfqj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20030204025242.1036.qmail@web21109.mail.yahoo.com>

"Gary Sapp & Karen J.S.":
> > I don't think anyone has discussed the audio
> versions for a while.  I
> > managed to get a complete set for Christmas,
> the UK version read by
> > Stephen Fry.  I received the Jim Dale version
> the christmas before.
> > 
> > Having just finished my first hearing of the
> Fry tapes, I was
> > wondering if anyone else had listened to both
> versions and what their
> > impressions/preferences are.
 
Jo Serenadust:
> I have both versions of the first 3 books (and
> am working on getting 
> the Fry version of GoF).  I enjoy the Dale
> version, but on the whole 
> I think that the Stephen Fry ones are much
> better.  It's a matter of 
> personal taste, for the most part, but there
> are some real 
> differences.  For instance, in the Fry version
> of CoS there is a 
> very cool echo chamber effect when Ron gets
> Molly's howler.  This 
> effect is used again in PoA, when Harry hears
> his parent's voices 
> while fighting the boggart/dementor.  In
> addition, I find Jim Dale's 
> version of Hermione *very* irritating,
> especially when she 
> says, "Harrrrryyyyyyyeeeee" ::shudders::, and
> at the end of PoA, 
> when Harry tells Uncle Vernon about his
> godfather, the reading is so 
> unbearably OOC (IMO), that I really can't stand
> to listen to it.
> 
> Overall, the Fry version is just much more dry
> and witty than the 
> Dale version which is much more over the top. 
> I remember reading 
> somewhere that Fry was JKR's personal choice to
> read the books, so 
> that may be affecting my opinion.
> 
> You're really lucky to have both versions. 
> I've begun re-listening 
> to them when driving on my daily route, and I
> still pick up on new nuances every time.

I have both versions and switch back and forth
rather than becoming 'fixed' on either one.  Love
them both really but if I can only have one, I'd
pick the Fry version...in the much more durable
CD format.

Has Dale's Uncle Vernon struck anyone else as
sounding a bit like Marvin The Martian at certain
points on the recording?  It took me ages to
figure out why that voice sounds familiar...

Petra
a
n  :)

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com



From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Tue Feb  4 05:45:09 2003
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius <coriolan@worldnet.att.net>)
Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 05:45:09 -0000
Subject: Where were you? (Dallas check-in)
In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20030202010123.009f9810@pop.cox-internet.com>
Message-ID: <b1nk15+k69o@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Beth <belleps at o...> wrote:

> 
> The thing that I remember watching on black-and-white TVs in my 
elementary 
> school classroom was the first man walking on the moon. Yep, I'm 
that old. 


Well, I was in high school when Apollo 11 landed, so I'm even older - 
but since they landed on a Sunday evening in midsummer (July 20), I 
don't think what you remember from your elementary school was the 
live broadcast of the landing. You probably are remembering a replay.


   - CMC




From skelkins at attbi.com  Tue Feb  4 06:07:04 2003
From: skelkins at attbi.com (ssk7882 <skelkins@attbi.com>)
Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 06:07:04 -0000
Subject: Where were you? (Dallas check-in)
In-Reply-To: <b1nk15+k69o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b1nla8+8rlk@eGroups.com>

Well, Caius and Bel, you ancient ancient people!  ;-)

The moon landing is the earliest of my memories that has anything
to do with the world outside the nursery.  My parents all but tied me 
down to make me watch it on television.  I remember being profoundly 
disinterested in the entire affair, and being told that I should pay 
attention, because this was a historical event happening within my 
lifetime, and I would therefore be grateful to them later in life for 
insisting that I witness it.

And you know what?  They were actually *right* about that one?


Elkins 




From blessedbrian at yahoo.com  Tue Feb  4 13:49:50 2003
From: blessedbrian at yahoo.com (Brian Cordova <blessedbrian@yahoo.com>)
Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 13:49:50 -0000
Subject: HP audio versions
In-Reply-To: <20030204025242.1036.qmail@web21109.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <b1ogdu+4jko@eGroups.com>

  "Has Dale's Uncle Vernon struck anyone else as
sounding a bit like Marvin The Martian at certain
points on the recording? It took me ages to
figure out why that voice sounds familiar..."

  Hi Petra.

  Personally, I think he sounds a little like Paul Lynne;-).

  I only have the Dale version (of which I enjoy immensely!).  One 
thing I noticed while reading along with the CD last night in GOF, 
during the sorting hat ceremony, the book describes the stool the hat 
sat upon as being "four legged" while Dale's reading described it 
a "three legged stool".  Does anyone know what the difference may be 
about, or was it a simply mis-reading (twice).  I went back and 
checked the first book and the reading says "four legged" on both.

  Maybe I'm just crazier than usual!

  Brian:-)   





From lupinesque at yahoo.com  Tue Feb  4 14:40:54 2003
From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z <lupinesque@yahoo.com>)
Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 14:40:54 -0000
Subject: A Clue! - grown-up Dan
In-Reply-To: <b1efuc+4vuc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b1ojdm+83ug@eGroups.com>

Elkins reminisced:

> You know, I once had an English teacher who used to pick out 
> sentences like the above whenever they would appear in my essays 
and 
> then demand that I explain to the entire class precisely *why* they 
> were grammatically problematic?
> 
> Sadistic man, he was.  

Did he have red eyes and a lipless, mirthless smile?

In other news, I saw Moonlight Mile this weekend, and I realize I 
have a one-track mind, but Jake Gyllenhaal looks like what you'd get 
if you ran Daniel Radcliffe's photo through one of those age--a-face-
up-10-years computer programs.  This is too OT even for -Movie, but 
if you're a Dan fan, check it out.  Incidentally, it was a *good* 
movie, which seems to have been direct-to-airline as I don't recall 
its release at all (Dustin Hoffman, and Susan Sarandon in the best 
performance of hers I've seen--does this sound like a recipe for 
obscurity?), and I can't wait 'til it comes out on video so I can see 
it properly and hear the dialogue that was drowned out by the 
turbines.

Amy




From vojoca at yahoo.com  Tue Feb  4 09:40:37 2003
From: vojoca at yahoo.com (vojoca <vojoca@yahoo.com>)
Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 09:40:37 -0000
Subject: Good fanfics and where to find them  [WAS]  Re: 90% of everything is crap.
In-Reply-To: <avi1to+tses@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b1o1ql+88vm@eGroups.com>

Hi everyone!


My apologies for responding a bit late to this....I'm (obviously) 
new.  A lurker for quite some time over at the HP4GU, and now I find 
myself here.  =)   Now on to my post:



Unfortunately, I haven't read that many ff.  There are a few reasons 
for this:

1.  I didn't want to confuse the *actual* HP books and story with 
them.  In the past I've been known to confuse books/stories and even 
the storylines of different movies and things in my own imagination; 
for some reason, my mind sometimes likes to play tricks on me and 
combine a few subplots and other little things together.  ;-P  
Needless to say, that's a big pain in the you-know-what trying to 
sort it all out!  =)

2.  I wanted to first read the entire series *and then* go back and 
see where everyone's imagination took them in between books while 
waiting for the next one, or just in general - see how close they 
came to JKR's books, how far they strayed, etc.  (I know that that's 
*not* the reason some if not most ff authors write; I'm just curious 
is all.  Who knows, someone out there may have hit the nail on the 
head as to the plot, etc.  JKR after all doesn't really read what's 
online...or does she?)

3.  The few fanfics that I *have* come across in the past I didn't 
really like.  Either it was the writing style, or it was too 
predictable, or it seemed like the author didn't really put much 
thought into it, or whatever.  So I just sort of gave it up.



Lately, though, I've been *wanting* to read them.  I'm pretty 
confident that I won't confuse them with the HP books =)  and I'm 
absoultely sure that there are tons and tons of excellent ones out 
there written by good writers.  So the question I have for all of you 
is:  

Where can I find them?  The ones that all of *you* like?  The ones 
that disturbed you the most?  The ones that made you feel warm and 
fuzzy inside?  That ones that *you wrote*?  



Waiting with baited breath,

vojoca





From heidit at netbox.com  Tue Feb  4 15:22:16 2003
From: heidit at netbox.com (heiditandy)
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 10:22:16 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Good fanfics and where to find them  [WAS]  Re: 90% of everything is crap.
In-Reply-To: <b1o1ql+88vm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00a701c2cc61$33fda4b0$0301a8c0@Frodo>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: vojoca <vojoca at yahoo.com> [mailto:vojoca at yahoo.com] 


> Lately, though, I've been *wanting* to read them.  I'm pretty 
> confident that I won't confuse them with the HP books =)  and I'm 
> absoultely sure that there are tons and tons of excellent ones out 
> there written by good writers.  So the question I have for all of you 
> is:  
> 
> Where can I find them?  The ones that all of *you* like?  The ones 
> that disturbed you the most?  The ones that made you feel warm and 
> fuzzy inside?  That ones that *you wrote*?  
> 

A good starting point is the HPfGU FAQ on fanfic, which Penny wrote and
Ebony and I update (although it does need a new update, so I'll be
thrilled to see what people recommend in response to your question, so
we can add them in) - you can find it here:
http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/faq/fanfiction.html


Heidi, looking forward to responses too!

Follow me to FictionAlley
Fanfics of all shapes, sizes & SHIPs
http://www.fictionalley.org




From jmmears at comcast.net  Tue Feb  4 15:33:08 2003
From: jmmears at comcast.net (serenadust <jmmears@comcast.net>)
Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 15:33:08 -0000
Subject: Where were you? (Was:Can everyone in Dallas check in re: space shuttle)
In-Reply-To: <b1huki+53uq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b1omfk+g93v@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Meg Demeranville 
> 
> I was in the first grade when the Challenger blew up. It's 
actually 
> one of the first memories I have of my school days. Somehow, we 
won 
> the right to see the Challenger launch over any of the other 
grades. 
> I remember sitting on that classroom floor with my best friend and 
> watching the television. I remember we were all kidding around and 
> laughing because it was really cool that we were the ones to watch 
> it. And then it blew up. The classroom got really quiet at that 
> point and I everyone was just stunned. 


I very clearly remember coming back from an early lunch at work (I'm 
another ancient listmember), and seeing all my co-workers in the 
hall watching a tv monitor.  The news was especially shocking in 
view of all the publicity about the first teacher in space, and the 
lessons she planned to conduct for broadcast back to classrooms.  In 
addition to the immediate shock and disbelief, was a sickening fear 
because we were part of the federal systems division of the company 
who designed and built all of the computer and guidance systems for 
the space shuttle program. Everyone was wondering if perhaps some 
fault in what we had provided may have been responsible for the 
destruction.
It was a horrible day.

Jo Serenadust




From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Tue Feb  4 15:48:22 2003
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naamagatus <naama_gat@hotmail.com>)
Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 15:48:22 -0000
Subject: Can everyone in Dallas check in re: space shuttle
In-Reply-To: <33281056.1044128099185.JavaMail.root@webmail.i-55.com>
Message-ID: <b1onc6+6lk0@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, rvotaw at i... wrote:
<snip>
>  I did channel back to 
> watch President Bush's speech, which I promptly cried through.  I 
never cry, go 
> figure.
> 
> Richelle

Really? I was initially shocked and very upset and then got 
progressively more cynical about the whole thing the more speeches 
and ... what's the the word - cant? I heard. Bush was particularly 
unconvincing, IMO. Besides, being the suspicious and uncharitable 
person that I am, I got angry about the (then) presumed neglect and 
negligence that I immediately thought as underlying the accident. 
Which goes to show that cynisism and pessimism are, more often than 
not, realism.

Naama, getting progressively more and more angry 




From saitaina at wizzards.net  Tue Feb  4 16:26:26 2003
From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina)
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 08:26:26 -0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Good fanfics and where to find them  [WAS]  Re: 90% of everything is crap.
References: <b1o1ql+88vm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00d601c2cc6a$2aebeea0$8dbaefd8@oemcomputer>

vojoca wrote:

<Where can I find them?  The ones that all of
*you* like?  The ones
that disturbed you the most?  The ones that
made you feel warm and
fuzzy inside?  That ones that *you wrote*? >

Well since you added that last bit...

Actually I do have one I wrote that I would
recomend.  It's my flagship story called "The
End of the Beginning".  It's basically a look
at what happens after the war with Voldemort
is over.  How the survivors go on with life
and face another rise of the Death Eaters.

It's a Neville centric, character driven
story that has one original character that
only shows up in three chapters.  It's slash
(m/m and f/f) but it has quite a few
mentioned and not mentioned het relationships
(major ones being Ron/Hermione and Justin
FF/Hannah Abbot).

This is a great story if you love the minor
characters such as Neville, Percy, Seamus,
Dean, JustinFF, Peter Pettigrew, Lucius
Malfoy, Denis and Colin as they all have
staring roles. (Draco Malfoy also featured.

If this doesn't suit you I have 25 other fics
to my name, both slash and het including four
Marauder centric fics.

Saitaina
****
"Yours is better than mine. Mine still has
wood-grained fur," Harry complained.
"It's camoflauge kitty. It'll blend with the
wainscoting."
"Just what I always wanted- a cat that can
sneak into the library," Harry said dryly

http://www.livejournal.com/users/saitaina

James: "Option One is that we go back into
the jail cell and pretend we have no idea how
the couch came to be lying in the hall when
he comes back."





From ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com  Tue Feb  4 19:09:34 2003
From: ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com (Petra Pan)
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:09:34 -0800 (PST)
Subject: HP audio versions
In-Reply-To: <b1ogdu+4jko@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20030204190934.66200.qmail@web21108.mail.yahoo.com>

Petra:
> Has Dale's Uncle Vernon struck
> anyone else as sounding a bit
> like Marvin The Martian at certain
> points on the recording? It took me
> ages to figure out why that voice
> sounds familiar...

Brian:
>   Personally, I think he sounds a little like
> Paul Lynne;-).

Do you mean Paul Lynde (Uncle Arthur from
Bewitched, voice of Templeton from 
Charlotte's Web, Center Square on Hollywood
Squares in the 60's)?

If you do...I must admit that the thought never
occurred to me!  Well, Lynde playing Vernon in
any capacity would surely bring new nuances to
our perception of the couple dynamics of the
Dursleys...that is, if the man is still with us
in this world.

Brian:
>   I only have the Dale version (of which I
> enjoy immensely!).  One 
> thing I noticed while reading along with the CD
> last night in GOF, 
> during the sorting hat ceremony, the book
> describes the stool the hat 
> sat upon as being "four legged" while Dale's
> reading described it 
> a "three legged stool".  Does anyone know what
> the difference may be 
> about, or was it a simply mis-reading (twice). 
> I went back and 
> checked the first book and the reading says
> "four legged" on both.

Which edition are you reading in print?

Ever heard of a magazine called AudioFile?  It's
"The Listener's Guide to Audiobooks."  In its
December 2002/January 2003 issue, page 18,
there's a picture of a narrator (not Jim Dale) at
a microphone.  Semi-framing his face are various
annotated manuscript pages.

One of which is a page from the chapter entitled
"The Dark Mark."  Nothing earth shattering here -
just a funny tidbit: at the top is what look to
be a reminder "Winky - not too Dobby!"  The page
layout pegs Dale's 'script' for his vocal
performance as being the US hardback.

The picture at the website is waaay smaller than
(and the article not the same as) the hard copy
of the magazine so it would behoove anyone
interested to get the actual magazine. 
Nevertheless, here's the link:

http://www.audiofilemagazine.com/
features/fea1202_2.cfm

One nit-pick - the text is reflected in the
glasses of the narrator in the picture. 
Obviously a PhotoShop job since the text is not
mirror-wise.

Petra
a
n  :)

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com



From lupinesque at yahoo.com  Tue Feb  4 19:35:59 2003
From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z <lupinesque@yahoo.com>)
Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 19:35:59 -0000
Subject: HP audio versions
In-Reply-To: <20030204190934.66200.qmail@web21108.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <b1p4mv+ih4n@eGroups.com>

Petra wrote:

> Semi-framing his face are various
> annotated manuscript pages.
> 
> One of which is a page from the chapter entitled
> "The Dark Mark."  Nothing earth shattering here -
> just a funny tidbit: at the top is what look to
> be a reminder "Winky - not too Dobby!"  The page
> layout pegs Dale's 'script' for his vocal
> performance as being the US hardback.

Yes, he reads the US versions, as LOONS know from the very first 
chapter, when the new word Dudley learns is "Won't!"  The covers are 
also a bit of a giveaway.  :-P

I think I've told this story before, but repetition is the privilege 
of old age (says the woman who was *not* in first grade when the 
Challenger blew up).  Before I'd even cracked open an HP, I heard Jim 
Dale interviewed on All Things Considered.  GF must have just come 
out, and they were asking him about the process.  He said it took 
about 10 days to tape and that he hadn't read the whole thing when he 
began; he could only read enough each night to prepare for the next 
day's taping (how does one read a mystery properly if one doesn't 
know whodunnit?  But he pulls it off).  So when he encountered Winky, 
he gave her the same voice he'd given Dobby.  Then, to his dismay, he 
discovered he was going to have to create a dialogue between them.  
He created a new voice for Winky and retaped the QWC bits. 

Amy




From ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com  Tue Feb  4 22:12:44 2003
From: ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com (Petra Pan)
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 14:12:44 -0800 (PST)
Subject: HP audio versions
In-Reply-To: <b1p4mv+ih4n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20030204221244.7888.qmail@web21108.mail.yahoo.com>

Petra:
> > Semi-framing his face are various
> > annotated manuscript pages.
> > 
> > One of which is a page from the chapter
> > entitled "The Dark Mark."  Nothing earth 
> > shattering here - just a funny tidbit: at the

> > top is what look to be a reminder "Winky -
> > not too Dobby!"  The page
> > layout pegs Dale's 'script' for his vocal
> > performance as being the US hardback.

Amy:
> Yes, he reads the US versions, as LOONS know
> from the very first 
> chapter, when the new word Dudley learns is
> "Won't!"  The covers are 
> also a bit of a giveaway.  :-P

Yup, just as Fry reads from the UK versions for
the UK audiobooks.  What I meant is that for some
inexplicable reason, whereas the US HB designates
the stools as being 'three-legged,' the US PB
describes it as being 'four-legged.'

Not kidding...I checked to make sure I didn't
just imagine that difference when I had to stop
at the bookstore earlier.

I suspect that Brian is hearing the US HB as he
reads the US PB which is why they didn't
reconcile exactly.  Right Brian?

Amy:
> I think I've told this story before, but
> repetition is the privilege 
> of old age (says the woman who was *not* in
> first grade when the 
> Challenger blew up).  Before I'd even cracked
> open an HP, I heard Jim 
> Dale interviewed on All Things Considered.  GF
> must have just come 
> out, and they were asking him about the
> process.  He said it took 
> about 10 days to tape and that he hadn't read
> the whole thing when he 
> began; he could only read enough each night to
> prepare for the next 
> day's taping (how does one read a mystery
> properly if one doesn't 
> know whodunnit?  But he pulls it off).  So when
> he encountered Winky, 
> he gave her the same voice he'd given Dobby. 
> Then, to his dismay, he 
> discovered he was going to have to create a
> dialogue between them.  
> He created a new voice for Winky and retaped
> the QWC bits.

<titter>  That's funny.

Because I was wearing out my magnetic audio
cassettes, I had borrowed the HP books on CD a
few times.  Guess what?  Even the audiobooks
themselves are of various editions:

- in the earlier editions, the order of emergence
for James and Lily at the graveyard scene in GoF
is reversed, just as it is in the earlier
editions of the books, and

- in an old post about audiobooks, I noted what
seemed to be a discrepancy between the running
times of the US and the UK audiobooks.  My
mistake.  It turns out I must have one of the
earliest versions of US GoF audiobooks for it
gave the running time as 'Approx. 20 Hours' which
sounded like almost an hour's difference from the
running time on the UK versions.  Later versions
puts it at almost exactly the same length as the
UK version.

There's probably more that I haven't noticed.  So
Brian, noted any other discrepancies?

Petra
a
n  :)

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com



From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Tue Feb  4 23:09:34 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve <bboy_mn@yahoo.com>)
Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 23:09:34 -0000
Subject: Butterbeer & Creme Soda - THAT'S IT!
In-Reply-To: <011701c2caef$007b72c0$f09fcdd1@RVotaw>
Message-ID: <b1ph7e+4u80@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Richelle Votaw" <rvotaw at i...>
wrote:
> Tyler wrote:
> 
> > on a HP/food related note, do you think butterbeer is
> > an alcoholic beverage? I always imagined it was
> > similar to root beer, a nonalcoholic soft drink
> 
> I've always imagined butterbeer as Cream Soda.  I'm not entirely
sure why, but that was the first thing to come to mind the first time
I read it, and I've thought of it as that ever since.  So
nonalcoholic, in my opinion.
>
> Richelle


bboy_mn:

Creme Soda you say....hummmmm. That got me thinking, I've tried
several of the 'butterbeer' recipies that use Root Beers as a base,
they were so-so. But the idea of using Vanilla Creme Soda never
occurred to me before. 

I tried it, of all the Butter Beer recipies I tried, it was the most
drinkable. Take a bottle/can of really good tasting Vanilla Creme Soda
and add 2 or 3 spoonfulls of Butterscotch Ice Cream Topping, and
you've got it. Works hot or cold. 

I'm drinking some right now, ....not too bad. 

Of course, it helps if you really like butterscotch, the butterscotchy
flavor is pretty intense, but if you have some kids who are dying to
try butterbeer, give this a shot. 

Just a thought.

bboy_mn





From blessedbrian at yahoo.com  Wed Feb  5 01:43:48 2003
From: blessedbrian at yahoo.com (Brian Cordova <blessedbrian@yahoo.com>)
Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 01:43:48 -0000
Subject: HP audio versions
In-Reply-To: <20030204190934.66200.qmail@web21108.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <b1pq8k+ou1l@eGroups.com>


  Yep, Paul Lynde (pardon my bad spelling!).  He actually passed in 
the early 80's.

  I'm reading the most recent version (where Harry's mother comes out 
of the wand first).  

  Brian:-)

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Petra Pan <ms_petra_pan at y...> 
wrote:
> Petra:
> > Has Dale's Uncle Vernon struck
> > anyone else as sounding a bit
> > like Marvin The Martian at certain
> > points on the recording? It took me
> > ages to figure out why that voice
> > sounds familiar...
> 
> Brian:
> >   Personally, I think he sounds a little like
> > Paul Lynne;-).
> 
> Do you mean Paul Lynde (Uncle Arthur from
> Bewitched, voice of Templeton from 
> Charlotte's Web, Center Square on Hollywood
> Squares in the 60's)?
> 
> If you do...I must admit that the thought never
> occurred to me!  Well, Lynde playing Vernon in
> any capacity would surely bring new nuances to
> our perception of the couple dynamics of the
> Dursleys...that is, if the man is still with us
> in this world.
> 
> Brian:
> >   I only have the Dale version (of which I
> > enjoy immensely!).  One 
> > thing I noticed while reading along with the CD
> > last night in GOF, 
> > during the sorting hat ceremony, the book
> > describes the stool the hat 
> > sat upon as being "four legged" while Dale's
> > reading described it 
> > a "three legged stool".  Does anyone know what
> > the difference may be 
> > about, or was it a simply mis-reading (twice). 
> > I went back and 
> > checked the first book and the reading says
> > "four legged" on both.
> 
> Which edition are you reading in print?
> 
> Ever heard of a magazine called AudioFile?  It's
> "The Listener's Guide to Audiobooks."  In its
> December 2002/January 2003 issue, page 18,
> there's a picture of a narrator (not Jim Dale) at
> a microphone.  Semi-framing his face are various
> annotated manuscript pages.
> 
> One of which is a page from the chapter entitled
> "The Dark Mark."  Nothing earth shattering here -
> just a funny tidbit: at the top is what look to
> be a reminder "Winky - not too Dobby!"  The page
> layout pegs Dale's 'script' for his vocal
> performance as being the US hardback.
> 
> The picture at the website is waaay smaller than
> (and the article not the same as) the hard copy
> of the magazine so it would behoove anyone
> interested to get the actual magazine. 
> Nevertheless, here's the link:
> 
> http://www.audiofilemagazine.com/
> features/fea1202_2.cfm
> 
> One nit-pick - the text is reflected in the
> glasses of the narrator in the picture. 
> Obviously a PhotoShop job since the text is not
> mirror-wise.
> 
> Petra
> a
> n  :)
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
> http://mailplus.yahoo.com




From KAREN-GARY at worldnet.att.net  Wed Feb  5 01:50:40 2003
From: KAREN-GARY at worldnet.att.net (Gary Sapp & Karen J.S. <KAREN-GARY@worldnet.att.net>)
Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 01:50:40 -0000
Subject: Where were you? (Was:Can everyone in Dallas check in re: space shuttle)
In-Reply-To: <b1omfk+g93v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b1pqlg+4ftg@eGroups.com>

--- 
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Meg Demeranville 
> >snip 
> > I was in the first grade when the Challenger blew up. It's 
> actually 
> > one of the first memories I have of my school days. Somehow, we 
> won 
> > the right to see the Challenger launch over any of the other 
> grades. 

> 
> In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "serenadust <jmmears at c...>"
<jmmears at c...> wrote:
> I very clearly remember coming back from an early lunch at work
(I'm 
> another ancient listmember), and seeing all my co-workers in the 
> hall watching a tv monitor.......  
> It was a horrible day.
> 
> Jo Serenadust


Being another ancient member of this list, I remember gathering around
the b&w tv at school when JFK was shot.  I was in college when
Challenger went down, it was surreal..I had been in the lounge trying
to rest for a half hour with a horrible head cold and I come out and
everyone was acting strange.  Went to the student union building, saw
the t.v footage and just felt numb.

Saturday I found out when I logged on to get my messages....it is
tragic that they only were 16 minutes away from home and being a
successful mission. :(

Bless them and may God help the families cope with it all.

Karen




From cindysphinx at comcast.net  Wed Feb  5 03:26:52 2003
From: cindysphinx at comcast.net (Cindy C. <cindysphinx@comcast.net>)
Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 03:26:52 -0000
Subject: Forcing Kids To Watch History Made (WAS Where were you? (Dallas check-in))
In-Reply-To: <b1nla8+8rlk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b1q09s+vdn2@eGroups.com>

Elkins wrote:

> The moon landing is the earliest of my memories that has anything
> to do with the world outside the nursery.  My parents all but tied 
>me down to make me watch it on television.  

I'm a bit older than Elkins (and never you mind how much older), but 
I remember being coerced to watch the moon landing, too.  But I 
didn't care that much, sadly.  I also remember them forcing me to 
actually come inside from playing with my friends to watch Richard 
Nixon resign.  Oh, I was *ticked!*

I don't have memories of the JFK assassination (too young) or the 
RFK or MLK assassinations, either.  I was seven for those, but I 
think my parents shielded me.  I knew they were upset, but I was 
very unclear on exactly why.  For some reason, I do vividly recall 
the George Wallace assassination -- when was that, anyway?

Elkins:

> And you know what?  They were actually *right* about that one?

Er, I'm still bitter that I had to come inside.  I mean, I was 
having *fun!*  ;-)

Cindy -- who doesn't much care whether she witnesses most things 
live or on tape




From thalia at aokp.org  Wed Feb  5 03:51:57 2003
From: thalia at aokp.org (chanteuse thalia chaunacy)
Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 19:51:57 -0800
Subject: mock fisher price people
Message-ID: <WorldClient-F200302041951.AA51570255@aokp.org>

forgive me if this has been sent before.

http://www.quinnarama.com/harrypotter.html

thalia 'loves knowing supernerds who send her supernerdy links' chaunacy

"Ah, music. A magic beyond all we do here!"  -Albus Dumbledore




From dradamsapple at yahoo.com  Wed Feb  5 05:32:56 2003
From: dradamsapple at yahoo.com (dradamsapple <dradamsapple@yahoo.com>)
Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 05:32:56 -0000
Subject: mock fisher price people
In-Reply-To: <WorldClient-F200302041951.AA51570255@aokp.org>
Message-ID: <b1q7m9+g2k8@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "chanteuse thalia chaunacy" 
<thalia at a...> wrote:
> forgive me if this has been sent before.
> 
> http://www.quinnarama.com/harrypotter.html
> 
> thalia 'loves knowing supernerds who send her supernerdy links' 
chaunacy
> 
> "Ah, music. A magic beyond all we do here!"  -Albus Dumbledore


OMGoodness!!

I love them!  I want them!!

Who is the talented 'artist'?

I must say, to celebrate CoS,  I  brought in my Lego Harry/Draco 
Flying lesson set (which I mistakenly thought was Quidditch) to work.
I did get a few hairy eyeballs throwm my way.  Well, I also dressed 
up  our magnet mascot, Betsey, with a new Hogwarts robe and  wizards 
hat.   She looked very distinguished on the board among the other 
magnets. And, I put a wizards hat on our pet snowman.  So, I  guess I 
could use a set of these for *my*  virtual Hogwarts at my job.  
Maybe I'll just print out the pictures  . . .

Anna . . .(who is starting to admit her obsession with all things HP)




From dradamsapple at yahoo.com  Wed Feb  5 05:43:16 2003
From: dradamsapple at yahoo.com (dradamsapple <dradamsapple@yahoo.com>)
Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 05:43:16 -0000
Subject: Forcing Kids To Watch History Made (WAS Where were you? (Dallas check-in))
In-Reply-To: <b1q09s+vdn2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b1q89k+ipl4@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Cindy C. <cindysphinx at c...>" 
<cindysphinx at c...> wrote:
> Elkins wrote:
> 
> > The moon landing is the earliest of my memories that has anything
> > to do with the world outside the nursery.  My parents all but 
tied 
> >me down to make me watch it on television.  
> 
> I'm a bit older than Elkins (and never you mind how much older), 
but 
> 
>
 For some reason, I do vividly recall 
> the George Wallace assassination -- when was that, anyway?
> 
> 
> Cindy -- who doesn't much care whether she witnesses most things 
> live or on tape


 Cindy, (or Elkins, or anyone else who remembers)

As I am also an ancient one, and the memory seems to be the first to  
go, was George Wallace actually assassinated?  I thought he was shot 
and remained paralyzed?  Or am I confusing him with someone else?
I know President Reagan was shot, but luckily, no serious outcome.
I would swear that I have seen pictures of George Wallace in a wheel 
chair.  Please correct  me if I'm wrong.  I'm realy just curious.

Anna . . .(who MUST remember to buy dog food tomorrow  . . .)





From thalia at aokp.org  Wed Feb  5 05:59:34 2003
From: thalia at aokp.org (chanteuse thalia chaunacy)
Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 21:59:34 -0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Good fanfics and where to find them
In-Reply-To: <b1o1ql+88vm@eGroups.com>
References: <avi1to+tses@eGroups.com> <b1o1ql+88vm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <WorldClient-F200302042159.AA59340258@aokp.org>

vojoca wrote: "Where can I find them? The ones that all of *you* like? 
The ones that disturbed you the most? The ones that made you feel warm 
and fuzzy inside? That ones that *you wrote*??"

if you're not opposed to Ron/Hrm stories from various genres, my author 
page has both the ones i've written and the ones i like the best.
http://www.fanfiction.net/profile.php?userid=302868

it's usually a good idea to look at the recommendations of authors you 
like.

hope that helps.

thalia 'always up for shameless self-advancement' chaunacy

"Ah, music. A magic beyond all we do here!"  -Albus Dumbledore




From drednort at alphalink.com.au  Wed Feb  5 07:30:26 2003
From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately)
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 18:30:26 +1100
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Forcing Kids To Watch History Made (WAS Where were you? (Dallas check-in))
In-Reply-To: <b1q89k+ipl4@eGroups.com>
References: <b1q09s+vdn2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3E415842.22807.EBD37A@localhost>

On 5 Feb 2003 at 5:43, dradamsapple dradamsapple at yah wrote:

>  Cindy, (or Elkins, or anyone else who remembers)
> 
> As I am also an ancient one, and the memory seems to be the first to  
> go, was George Wallace actually assassinated?  I thought he was shot 
> and remained paralyzed?  Or am I confusing him with someone else?
> I know President Reagan was shot, but luckily, no serious outcome.
> I would swear that I have seen pictures of George Wallace in a wheel 
> chair.  Please correct  me if I'm wrong.  I'm realy just curious.

You're not wrong - a little before my time, but I take a keen interest in this type of thing 
(anyone wants a good argument, I happen to believe Lee Harvey Oswald was the sole 
assasin of JFK and the Warren Commission got it pretty much right (-8 )

Wallace was shot May 15, 1972, in Laurel, Maryland. He was paralysed from the waist 
down but survived, finally dying in 1998, having abandoned the racist ideas of his early 
political life.

Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought
Shaun Hately |webpage: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html
(ISTJ)       |email: drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200

                       "Almighty Ruler of the all;
                 Whose power extends to great and small;
                 Who guides the stars with steadfast law;
                   Whose least creation fills with awe;
                     Oh grant thy mercy and thy grace;
                     To those who venture into space."




From lupinesque at yahoo.com  Wed Feb  5 11:15:44 2003
From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z <lupinesque@yahoo.com>)
Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 11:15:44 -0000
Subject: Earliest Memories of the World Outside (was Forcing Kids To Watch History Made)
In-Reply-To: <b1q09s+vdn2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b1qrp0+a61f@eGroups.com>

Elkins wrote:

> > The moon landing is the earliest of my memories that has anything
> > to do with the world outside the nursery.  

I always thought I remembered this, but as I was a year old, I'm sure 
I don't.  Must've been on tape.

The earliest memory I have of the world of news was Watergate.  
Nothing whatsoever about Vietnam, and how could I have watched 
Watergate reports without seeing anything about the war?  Maybe my 
parents had the good sense to send me out of the room (do they give 
warnings anymore for gruesome news stories?  I remember the 
newscasters warning parents before showing pictures of Jonestown).

Mind you, I didn't understand what Watergate *was.*  I thought it 
sounded quite exciting--I pictured a great seawall with the ocean 
lashing it--but I asked my mom what it was and she said "a hotel."  
Yawn.  I do recall thinking that John Chancellor was Nixon.  After 
all, his was the face I saw every night, and Nixon Nixon Nixon was 
the name I heard.  I regret to this day that I didn't write to 
Chancellor telling him this before he died.  He'd probably have been 
amused.

Amy Z




From naama_gat at hotmail.com  Wed Feb  5 11:39:51 2003
From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naamagatus <naama_gat@hotmail.com>)
Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 11:39:51 -0000
Subject: Earliest Memories of the World Outside (was Forcing Kids To Watch History Made)
In-Reply-To: <b1qrp0+a61f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b1qt67+106h6@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Amy Z <lupinesque at y...>" 
<lupinesque at y...> wrote:
> 
> The earliest memory I have of the world of news was Watergate.  
> Nothing whatsoever about Vietnam, and how could I have watched 
> Watergate reports without seeing anything about the war?  Maybe my 
> parents had the good sense to send me out of the room (do they give 
> warnings anymore for gruesome news stories?  I remember the 
> newscasters warning parents before showing pictures of Jonestown).
> 
> Mind you, I didn't understand what Watergate *was.*  I thought it 
> sounded quite exciting--I pictured a great seawall with the ocean 
> lashing it--but I asked my mom what it was and she said "a hotel."  
> Yawn.  I do recall thinking that John Chancellor was Nixon.  After 
> all, his was the face I saw every night, and Nixon Nixon Nixon was 
> the name I heard.  I regret to this day that I didn't write to 
> Chancellor telling him this before he died.  He'd probably have 
been 
> amused.

Living in a stressful country, I have several early news memories. 
I remember being 7 years old - we were living in England at the time -
 and everyone around being all worried and upset about something that 
was happening in Israel. I found it very boring and inexplicable and 
only years later realized that time was when Israel was closest to 
annihilation - the Yom Kippur war. 
A few years later I was outraged at waking up early on a *saturday* 
morning. I went grumpily to the kitchen-dining room where the noise 
was coming from - the radio loudly on and my parents again being very 
excited about something. They told me that the hostages at Antebe had 
been freed. I was so sleepy and grumpy that I just turned around and 
went back to sleep. It took a while before I realized what an amazing 
operation that had been. 
Still, in 1977, when Anwar Sadat came down the airplane - the first 
Arab leader to make peace with Israel - I had tears in my eyes just 
like everyone else. 

Naama




From sophiamcl at hotmail.com  Wed Feb  5 12:00:18 2003
From: sophiamcl at hotmail.com (sophiamcl <sophiamcl@hotmail.com>)
Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 12:00:18 -0000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter]Butterbeer (was Re: pumpkin juice)/ Odd dream
In-Reply-To: <011701c2caef$007b72c0$f09fcdd1@RVotaw>
Message-ID: <b1quci+a35t@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Richelle Votaw" <rvotaw at i...> 
wrote:
> Tyler wrote:
> 
> > on a HP/food related note, do you think butterbeer is
> > an alcoholic beverage? I always imagined it was
> > similar to root beer, a nonalcoholic soft drink
> 
> I've always imagined butterbeer as Cream Soda.  I'm not entirely sure why, 
but that was the first thing to come to mind the first time I read it, and I've 
thought of it as that ever since.  So nonalcoholic, in my opinion.
> 
According to cannon, butterbeer is alcoholic, though very weak. I don't  have 
GoF with me, but check out the chapter in which the trio visit the kitchen and 
encounter Winky, drunk on butterbeer. Ron (?) comments that it's not strong 
stuff, but Dobby explains that it *would* be strong for a house-elf, hence 
Winky's intoxication. This is why I believe it is. (Which is not to say that one 
could not concoct a delicious non-alcoholic beverage in the real world and 
label it butterbeer).

Sophia




From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk  Wed Feb  5 12:33:26 2003
From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak <pipdowns@etchells0.demon.co.uk>)
Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 12:33:26 -0000
Subject: pumpkin juice
In-Reply-To: <20030201163229.85991.qmail@web14203.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <b1r0am+fhjg@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Tyler Hewitt <tahewitt at y...> 
wrote:

> on a HP/food related note, do you think butterbeer is
> an alcoholic beverage? I always imagined it was
> similar to root beer, a nonalcoholic soft drink
> popular in the US (I have yet to meet a European who
> thinks its anything but revolting!) maybe with
> butterscotch flavor. Others have pointed out to me
> that the 'warm feeling' described when it is drank
> indicates that it has a low alcohol content. 
> Opinions?
> 
> Tyler

I guess I always imagined Butterbeer as the Wizarding equivalent of 
Shandy.

Shandy for adults is a half and half drink of lemonade and beer. 

Shandy for kids is about 90% lemonade and 10% beer, bringing it 
below the 0.5% proof that BBoy mentioned. This makes it a 'soft 
drink'.

Like Butterbeer, the kid's version comes in bottles. It's quite a 
popular drink among kids, who feel daring buying a 'beer' drink. But 
it's so weak even a toddler couldn't get drunk on it.

Possibly, in the WW, like in the MW, there is an 'adult' butterbeer, 
and a 'kid's' butterbeer.

Pip






From blessedbrian at yahoo.com  Wed Feb  5 13:39:45 2003
From: blessedbrian at yahoo.com (Brian Cordova <blessedbrian@yahoo.com>)
Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 13:39:45 -0000
Subject: Where were you? (Was:Can everyone in Dallas check in re: space shuttle)
In-Reply-To: <b1pqlg+4ftg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b1r471+b24u@eGroups.com>

  I was four years old and living in Abilene, TX. when JFK was shot.  
My memory of it is very vague except that I remember being unhappy 
that Captain Kangaroo was pre-empted for several days and it had 
something to do with that man we saw on TV a lot and that a lot of 
people seemed very sad.

  Brian
     




From rvotaw at i-55.com  Wed Feb  5 15:01:54 2003
From: rvotaw at i-55.com (rvotaw at i-55.com)
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 09:01:54 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Has anyone read these books?
Message-ID: <17241004.1044457314338.JavaMail.root@webmail.i-55.com>

I was looking through my Arrow Scholastic March order form, and came across 
these books.  The set is called Edward Eager's Magic Tales.  The individual 
titles are:

Half Magic
Magic by the Lake
The Time Garden
The Well-Wishers
Magic or Not?
Knight's Castle
Seven-Day Magic

The Scholastic form *says* they're great for Harry Potter fans, but of course 
they'll say anything to sell books.  Just wondering if anyone has actually read 
them.

Richelle

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From cindysphinx at comcast.net  Wed Feb  5 15:34:45 2003
From: cindysphinx at comcast.net (Cindy C. <cindysphinx@comcast.net>)
Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 15:34:45 -0000
Subject: Forcing Kids To Watch History Made (WAS Where were you? (Dallas check-in))
In-Reply-To: <b1q89k+ipl4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b1raul+3usa@eGroups.com>

dradamsapple wrote:

> As I am also an ancient one, and the memory seems to be the first 
>to  go, was George Wallace actually assassinated?  

Whoops!  

I tossed around the word "assassinated" rather loosely there, didn't 
I?  "Assassinated" does equate with murder, so I shouldn't have 
phrased it that way.  Now that I think about it, though, I have no 
idea what you call it when someone tries to kill a person for 
political reasons but the victim survives.  "Attempted 
assassination," I guess?  I always figured that would be what 
happened to Gerald Ford -- firing and missing entirely.

Anyway, to make it up to you, I googled George Wallace and can 
confirm that he was, er, almost assassinated on May 15, 1972.  He 
was shot 5 times while campaigning for president and was confined to 
a wheelchair.  He died in 1998.

Cindy -- who also has vivid memories of Nixon's defeat of Humphrey 
in 1968 because it was announced over the school PA system and many 
people in South Carolina were very unhappy with Nixon and still 
smarting from JFK's assassination




From heidit at netbox.com  Wed Feb  5 15:42:46 2003
From: heidit at netbox.com (heiditandy)
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 10:42:46 -0500
Subject: What do you do when people spout racist drivel?
Message-ID: <00b801c2cd2d$3c591a50$0301a8c0@Frodo>

In perfect synchronicity with the Main List discussion of the
correlation between racist words and being evil, I found today's Carolyn
Hax column in the Washington Post
(http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A26878-2003Feb4.html) to
be particularly interesting and somewhat on topic there, but I have a
feeling it would fall off topic very quickly, so while I'll give the
link there, I'm also putting it up for discussion here: 

Dear Carolyn: 
Do you have any advice for how to handle situations in which people,
whether it be relatives, friends, acquaintances, co-workers, service
providers, whoever, make hateful comments or jokes that are
anti-Semitic, anti-black, anti-gay, anti-Hispanic, you name it? I am way
too old not to know how to handle these situations. I don't encourage
the remarks in any way, but I don't condemn them either. I usually just
stand there looking like an idiot and try to change the subject. 

Here's part of her answer:

When circumstances demand a sleek, non-humiliating reproach -- say, when
the hateful egg-layer is your new client, out to dinner with you and
your boss -- the two can be a formidable and eloquent pair. "[Pause.]
Well. About those Mets." No huffs, no puffs, no conceivable doubt where
you stand.

Nevertheless, I think the Vocal and Righteous Objection is almost
universally seen as a virtue -- despite the fact that few of us ever
manage to rip one off under pressure.
***********************************************************

So the question is, just how bad is it to take the subject-changing
approach, versus the Vocal and Righteous Objection? And can that
"badness level" change in different circumstances?

heidi




From heidit at netbox.com  Wed Feb  5 15:54:09 2003
From: heidit at netbox.com (heiditandy)
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 10:54:09 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Forcing Kids To Watch History Made (WAS Where were you? (Dallas check-in))
In-Reply-To: <b1raul+3usa@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00be01c2cd2e$d3513720$0301a8c0@Frodo>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Cindy C. <cindysphinx at comcast.net> 
> 
> dradamsapple wrote:
> 
> > As I am also an ancient one, and the memory seems to be the first
> >to  go, was George Wallace actually assassinated?  

Cindy wrote: 
> I tossed around the word "assassinated" rather loosely there, didn't 
> I?  "Assassinated" does equate with murder, so I shouldn't have 
> phrased it that way.  Now that I think about it, though, I have no 
> idea what you call it when someone tries to kill a person for 
> political reasons but the victim survives.  "Attempted 
> assassination," I guess?  I always figured that would be what 
> happened to Gerald Ford -- firing and missing entirely.

Or Reagan. For an interesting look at assassination, as a concept, from
the perpetrator standpoint, I do recommend Sondheim's Assassins, which I
will eventually find a way to filk a song from, from a Tom Riddle & The
Death Eaters perspective. 

Hmmm. Barty Crouch as Squeaky Fromme, anyone?

heidi




From MsSeverusLucius at aol.com  Wed Feb  5 18:17:15 2003
From: MsSeverusLucius at aol.com (MsSeverusLucius at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 13:17:15 EST
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Has anyone read these books?
Message-ID: <147.9aa5949.2b72af2b@aol.com>

My son, now 16, read Half Magic a few years ago...loved it.
I'd say most of Edward Eager's tales would probably be cool !
I'd also suggest (the late) Monica Furlong's fantastic books, Wise Child and 
Juniper.
These were had Scholastic imprints several years ago, not sure if they are 
still printing them
Libraries should have them, if not available.
Tamora Pierce also has several series with females in the lead role, that are 
suburb, dealing with Magic or Mediaeval times.
My sons love those books too, even with a 'heroine'.
~shahara



From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Wed Feb  5 18:27:21 2003
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius <coriolan@worldnet.att.net>)
Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 18:27:21 -0000
Subject: Real Invisibility Cloaks
Message-ID: <b1rl29+jpqu@eGroups.com>

Use this link well:

http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_747591.html?
menu=news.latestheadlines


   - CMC







From dradamsapple at yahoo.com  Wed Feb  5 18:29:57 2003
From: dradamsapple at yahoo.com (dradamsapple <dradamsapple@yahoo.com>)
Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 18:29:57 -0000
Subject: What do you do when people spout racist drivel?/comments;rather long  
In-Reply-To: <00b801c2cd2d$3c591a50$0301a8c0@Frodo>
Message-ID: <b1rl75+2eaj@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "heiditandy" <heidit at n...> 
wrote:
> In perfect synchronicity with the Main List discussion of the
> correlation between racist words and being evil, I found today's 
Carolyn
> Hax column in the Washington Post
> (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A26878-
2003Feb4.html) to
> be particularly interesting and somewhat on topic there, but I have 
a
> feeling it would fall off topic very quickly, so while I'll give the
> link there, I'm also putting it up for discussion here: 
> 
> Dear Carolyn: 
> Do you have any advice for how to handle situations in which people,
> whether it be relatives, friends, acquaintances, co-workers, service
> providers, whoever, make hateful comments or jokes that are
> anti-Semitic, anti-black, anti-gay, anti-Hispanic, you name it? I 
am way
> too old not to know how to handle these situations. I don't 
encourage
> the remarks in any way, but I don't condemn them either. I usually 
just
> stand there looking like an idiot and try to change the subject. 
> 
> Here's part of her answer:
> 
> When circumstances demand a sleek, non-humiliating reproach -- say, 
when
> the hateful egg-layer is your new client, out to dinner with you and
> your boss -- the two can be a formidable and eloquent 
pair. "[Pause.]
> Well. About those Mets." No huffs, no puffs, no conceivable doubt 
where
> you stand.
> 
> Nevertheless, I think the Vocal and Righteous Objection is almost
> universally seen as a virtue -- despite the fact that few of us ever
> manage to rip one off under pressure.
> ***********************************************************
> 
> So the question is, just how bad is it to take the subject-changing
> approach, versus the Vocal and Righteous Objection? And can that
> "badness level" change in different circumstances?
> 
> heidi

Oh, Heidi,
I think you've opened up a beaker of flesh-eating slugs . . .

I decided to pop in to give you a couple of thoughts; one point of 
view, is that of a loving daughter of a very bigoted, imigrant, much 
older, father.  
My father came to the US in the late 50's from Italy. He was well 
into his fourties when he came here, so was already set in his ways.
Here, he was discriminated against because of his ethnicity (sp?), 
his vocation (a tailor), and of course, his language.  He eventually  
became successful enough to open up his own business, pay for 
everything in cash (which, is something I can not do), and was sought 
after by some very prominent people in our community. (and no, did 
not recieve help from any family members, as he was too proud).
 
Yet, till the day he died, you could not have an intelligent 
discussion with him about anything remotely political.  His thoughts 
on being Black, Jewish or on Mussolini (he thought Mussolini was the 
greatest thing since sliced bread) were just abhorrable (again, 
spelling?).  You would think someone with his experiences would be a 
little more sympathetic, but no.  We would usually just let him 
ramble on.  It did get quite embarrassing, at times, if we were out 
somewhere, like at a wedding or such.
But he was my father, and I loved him very much, even though I didn't 
agree with him.  In this case, yes,  we would try to change the 
subject as much a  possible, and would try to inform others that we 
had an "Archie Bunker" in our midst.  I know that some of my friends 
were biting their tonges at  times, but I think they did it out of 
respect for me. Was I right in ignoring him?  I don't know.  But I 
knew it was an uphill battle every time I tried to talk, so that's 
how I handled it.

One other instance of *rude remarks* comes to mind when I worked for 
the Blood Donor program of a major hospital.  Some of the male donors 
(mind you, I  could count them on two fingers) would make remarks 
about the apparent sexual attractiveness of some of my fellow co-
workeres (female).  An obvious case of sexual harrassment?  I thought 
so.  I finally said something to my supervisor, who informed me that 
she would keep it in mind, but that this was a rather delicate 
subject as these people were here volunteering there time and their 
blood (literally).  What's a *good* employee to do?  This was back in 
the early 90's (before Clarence Thomas and Anita Hill), so sexual 
harrassement was not on every employers' priority list.
Again, maybe I'm  just a pacifist (or a wimp), but I chose to deal 
with these people by NOT dealing with them; finding something else to 
do that would not bring me in contact with them.  Was that the right 
thing, again ?  I don't know.  I applaud those of you that have the 
strength to maintain a "Vocal and Righteous objection", as I just 
don't have the guts too. 

I think we could go on forever with this topic, as it has been going 
on for centuries.
It'll be interesting to hear others' thoughts.

just my two knuts  . . .Anna . . .(who is predjudiced against 
anything that has mushrooms in it!  yeeuck!)

 




From enchanted at pacbell.net  Wed Feb  5 19:19:12 2003
From: enchanted at pacbell.net (Enchanted)
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 11:19:12 -0800
Subject: Question
References: <b1rl29+jpqu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <025501c2cd4b$780c52b0$3b0afea9@family>

I can't remember in which book it states that Godric's hollow is an all muggle village. I do remember reading it and think it was in PoA, but can't find the page. 
Does anyone remember approximately where it can be found? 

-Enchanted


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From amy at pressroom.com  Wed Feb  5 19:19:55 2003
From: amy at pressroom.com (Amy Gourley)
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 14:19:55 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Has anyone read these books?
References: <17241004.1044457314338.JavaMail.root@webmail.i-55.com>
Message-ID: <02cf01c2cd4b$912ecd40$b17ba8c0@amy>

I've read Half Magic and really enjoyed it. The children in the book find a
magic coin that only gives them half of what they wish for-very cute. It is
set in the 1920s. I have all of other Eager's books on my wish list. :) Some
do seem similar to each other but I think they are good books.

Amy





From ken.kuller at veritas.com  Wed Feb  5 19:56:44 2003
From: ken.kuller at veritas.com (Kenneth M. Kuller <ken.kuller@veritas.com>)
Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 19:56:44 -0000
Subject: Question
In-Reply-To: <025501c2cd4b$780c52b0$3b0afea9@family>
Message-ID: <b1rq9s+jgej@eGroups.com>

Check out the information at:
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/godrics_hollow.html

Godrick's Hollow is described as a Muggle village, but not 
necessarily as all-Muggle.



--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Enchanted" <enchanted at p...> 
wrote:
> I can't remember in which book it states that Godric's hollow is an 
all muggle village. I do remember reading it and think it was in PoA, 
but can't find the page. 
> Does anyone remember approximately where it can be found? 
> 
> -Enchanted
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From heidit at netbox.com  Wed Feb  5 21:55:27 2003
From: heidit at netbox.com (heiditandy)
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 16:55:27 -0500
Subject: Nimbus - 2003 Seeks Your Input
Message-ID: <014e01c2cd61$4c407650$0301a8c0@Frodo>

In the past week, Nimbus - 2003 (http://www.hp2003.org) has started
sending out our Sponsorship Information Folios
(http://www.hp2003.org/nimbushelpsp.html) to various retailers,
distributors and manufacturers who we hope will consider Nimbus - 2003
to be a prime opportunity to support Harry Potter fans at this, the
first international Harry Potter-themed, fan-run event. Our Vendor
Information will be available next week, and we're looking forward to
sending that out too.
 
Now, clearly we know the Bigs. Online retailers like Sylvan Lane are on
our list, as well as companies like Lego and Rubies. We've had a lovely
conversation with a wand shop, and even some fandom websites are
planning to sponsor various events and "things". 
 
But we know that we don't know everyone - which is where *you* come into
play.
 
Where do you shop online for Harry Potter stuff?
What booksellers do you know of that might be interested in taking a
table in our exhibition room to showcase and sell their fantasy novels?
Do you know of a company that might want to come and take orders for
sweaters? How about care-and-feeding-of-snakes paraphenalia?
What about things the artists in attendence might want to buy? Or cloaks
and robes? We know some of you wear them day to day, and others wear
them on weekends or to special events only - who are your favorite
tailors, manufacturers and retailers?
What about amulets? Magic supplies? Cauldrons?
 
We need to know where you go and where you think we should send
exhibitor and/or sponsorship information. We want to bring the products
and services *you* want to see, so by letting us know, you're making
Nimbus - 2003 more comprehensive and inclusive!
 
And along similar lines, for sponsorship, we're hoping to have an
internet station, but we can't do it without a loan of computers. We
need prizes for the Quest and things that we can raffle off to
attendees. And we do need money, of course - what nonprofit doesn't? 
 
If you work for a company that does this kind of sponsorship/donation,
can you see if they're interested in sponsoring our burgeoning
educational event? Or just let us know who the right person to speak
with is, and we'll make the contact and send the information. Even if
you can't go yourself this year, your help on this will make future HP
symposiums all the better. 
 
Everyone working on Nimbus - 2003 is 110% committed to making the event
into an absolutely unforgettable experience for everyone (apart from
those who drink too many Guinesses at the Taste of the UK event (I just
saw the menu - it's scrumdidilyumptious!)) - and by unforgettable, we
mean that this will be more than you could ever expect from a gathering
of hundreds of other utter fans of Harry Potter. From the
day-programming to the double feature double feature, from the nightclub
to the auction, Nimbus - 2003 is going to be great.
 
We just know, though, that a lot of you just want a cool alley to shop
in. Help us to make it so.  
 
 
 
heidi tandy
sponsorship chaser
exhibition team
chaser of sticky toffee pudding


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From skelkins at attbi.com  Wed Feb  5 23:44:29 2003
From: skelkins at attbi.com (ssk7882 <skelkins@attbi.com>)
Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 23:44:29 -0000
Subject: Assassins and Squeaky!Barty
In-Reply-To: <00be01c2cd2e$d3513720$0301a8c0@Frodo>
Message-ID: <b1s7kt+c8ma@eGroups.com>

Heidi wrote:

> For an interesting look at assassination, as a concept, from
> the perpetrator standpoint, I do recommend Sondheim's Assassins, 
> which I will eventually find a way to filk a song from, from a Tom 
> Riddle & The Death Eaters perspective. 

Hee!

I second this recommendation very much.  Assassins is one of my 
favorite musicals.  Sadly, its actual *productions* seem to be dogged 
by the dread "not a good time for it right now" curse.  <sigh>

> Hmmm. Barty Crouch as Squeaky Fromme, anyone?

LOL!  Oh, that is simply priceless (as well as eerily canonically
appropriate).  'Let me prove worthy of your love,' indeed!
But who would you cast as the other half of the duet? 
SpeculativeInLoveWithTomFrustratedSpinsterEvil!McGonagall, perhaps?  

Aw, man, Heidi.  Now I'm going to have Squeaky!Barty stuck in my head 
all day, you realize.  

"I did it so there'd be a trial, and Voldemort would get to be
a witness, and Rita Skeeter would write about him, and then he'd
save the WORLD!"

"Where's my prize?"


Elkins





From skelkins at attbi.com  Thu Feb  6 00:11:05 2003
From: skelkins at attbi.com (ssk7882 <skelkins@attbi.com>)
Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 00:11:05 -0000
Subject: Earliest Memories of the World Outside (was Forcing Kids To Watch History Made)
In-Reply-To: <b1qrp0+a61f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b1s96p+sk1b@eGroups.com>

Amy wrote:

> The earliest memory I have of the world of news was Watergate.  
> Nothing whatsoever about Vietnam, and how could I have watched 
> Watergate reports without seeing anything about the war?  Maybe my 
> parents had the good sense to send me out of the room (do they give 
> warnings anymore for gruesome news stories?  I remember the 
> newscasters warning parents before showing pictures of Jonestown).

I always wondered this myself -- why I have absolutely no memories
of the Vietnam War.  Finally I thought to ask my parents about it.
Turns out that until the war was over, they made it their practice
never to turn on the television until after I'd gone to bed.  They'd 
only watch the 11:00 news.  They didn't want to risk my seeing 
footage of people being shot, or of ear necklaces, or of anything 
horrid and gruesome like that.

Thinking it over, this might explain why my parents never watched
television. . . .until all of a sudden, they, er, did.  

> Mind you, I didn't understand what Watergate *was.*  I thought it 
> sounded quite exciting--I pictured a great seawall with the ocean 
> lashing it--but I asked my mom what it was and she said "a hotel."  
> Yawn.  

Isn't that sort of thing so *disappointing?!*

I remember a friend of mine telling me all about Patty Hearst, who 
had been "kidnapped and brainwashed by the underground."

Well, I'd never heard the expression "the underground" before, and so 
I imagined it literally.  I was envisioning these Mole People sort of
revolutionaries, who all lived in weird little communities down in 
the sewers and subway tunnels.

Needless to say, I wanted to join them.  ;-)

I also believed that the civil defense drills we did in school were
in case of attack from space aliens, because when I had asked a 
teacher what they were for, she had answered: "It's in case we're 
ever attacked from the sky."

I didn't even consider the possibility that she was referring to 
being bombed, because you see, to my mind, that would be "attacked 
from the air," not "attacked from the sky."  "Attacked from the sky," 
to my way of thinking, could mean only one thing: SPACE ALIENS!

You know, I never understood a *thing* that was going on when I was a 
little kid?


Elkins




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Thu Feb  6 01:36:36 2003
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius <coriolan@worldnet.att.net>)
Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 01:36:36 -0000
Subject: Assassins and Squeaky!Barty
In-Reply-To: <b1s7kt+c8ma@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b1se74+qc88@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "ssk7882 <skelkins at a...>" 
<skelkins at a...> wrote:
> Heidi wrote:
> 
> > For an interesting look at assassination, as a concept, from
> > the perpetrator standpoint, I do recommend Sondheim's Assassins, 
> > which I will eventually find a way to filk a song from, from a 
Tom 
> > Riddle & The Death Eaters perspective. 
> 
> Hee!
> 
> I second this recommendation very much.  Assassins is one of my 
> favorite musicals.  Sadly, its actual *productions* seem to be 
dogged 
> by the dread "not a good time for it right now" curse.  <sigh>
> 

I'll add my two cents as well - Sondheim is my favorite Broadway 
composer, & Assassins ranks up their with his best. Not only that, it 
even includes its own "filk" - the song dramatizing Guiseppe 
Zangara's attempt on FDR, "How I Saved Roosevelt" is mostly sung to 
the tune of John Philip Sousa's El Capitan.

I had the great and good fortune to see it staged about 10 years ago 
in Arlington VA.

Great job, Heidi on the Crouch/Wormtail duet over on the main list.

  - CMC




From renitentraven at hotmail.com  Thu Feb  6 02:37:29 2003
From: renitentraven at hotmail.com (Lisa Armstrong <renitentraven@hotmail.com>)
Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 02:37:29 -0000
Subject: Bertie Beans, question from a regional group.
Message-ID: <b1shp9+cv92@eGroups.com>

 I'm throwing myself at the mercy of the international site, to 
answer a weird query of mine, that I don't think HPfGU-Australia 
could possibly explore in enough depth.

 Essentially whilst preparing my speciality of marinated tofu last 
night I was struck by a scary thought.

 Tofu is natures every flavoured bean. Yes?

  It's an eraser, you marinate it, it's chicken.
  It's a shredded eraser, you cook with chives and worstershire 
sauce, it's a scrambled egg.

 The scary and unavoidable conclusion I have half-formed:
 Bertie Bott's Every Flavoured Beans are a health food based scam to 
subvert the Wizarding World away from their healthy carnivourism to a 
diet of pure soya based protein.
 
 And Malfoy Snr. is on the board of directors.

 Hogwarts without kippers would close, as the house elves would 
revolt. No Hogwarts = Chaos.

 Or maybe I'm overreacting.

 Lisa 
(winking at Cathubodva from HPfGU-Aus and saying, let's get that 
adult RPG up soon, I need the distraction.                         
And again, Please say hello to Snape the Smartie for me.)




From rvotaw at i-55.com  Thu Feb  6 03:21:20 2003
From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw)
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 21:21:20 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Has anyone read these books?/ Thoughts about my class/ Action figures
References: <147.9aa5949.2b72af2b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <00c501c2cd8e$d24bac60$549dcdd1@RVotaw>

Shahara wrote:

> My son, now 16, read Half Magic a few years ago...loved it.
> I'd say most of Edward Eager's tales would probably be cool !

Thanks for all the input, the set of 7 is in my Scholastic book order for $13, so I'll get them.  Give me something to do this summer while I'm counting the days.  Hours.  Minutes.  :)

On another note, I've just had a thought about my class of first graders this year.  Why they are so . . . annoying.  I'm something of a Gryffindor/Ravenclaw hybrid.  I've determined that in my class there are 13 Slytherins and 1 Hufflepuff.  No wonder we don't get along so well. :)

And one other thing, I got three of the remaining four action figures I didn't have yet.  KB Toys here just got them in, marked them down to $4.99.  They weren't even in the computer yet.  They had a few of Dueling Club Harry, but only one Tom Riddle and one Dueling Club Lockhart.  Now I just need Dueling Club Malfoy.  I really like the new action figures, I hope they decide to make others soon.  They're much nicer.

Richelle


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From aaoconnor2002 at yahoo.com  Thu Feb  6 03:34:47 2003
From: aaoconnor2002 at yahoo.com (aaoconnor2002 <aaoconnor2002@yahoo.com>)
Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 03:34:47 -0000
Subject: Earliest Memories of the World Outside (was Forcing Kids To Watch History Made)
In-Reply-To: <b1s96p+sk1b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b1sl4n+3lks@eGroups.com>

I was a child of the sixties, growing up in the San Francisco Bay 
Area.  I remember the hippie movement quite well because everytime we 
had relatives visiting from out of the area my dad would take them to 
Berkeley and Haight-Ashbury to see the "crazy kids".  Mom would 
always double check to make sure the car doors were locked.  It 
didn't stop her from letting me go into Berkeley all the time with my 
friends a few years later when we were in high school.

Like Amy I really don't have any memories of the Vietnam War.  
Looking back I'm sure my parents were monitoring my television 
exposure to the war also.  The one thing I can remember vividly was 
laying on the living room floor watching television, hearing my 
mother go to answer the front door and then realizing she was crying 
and hugging some man in uniform.  It was her baby brother (an uncle I 
had never met) and he was home for good.  Mom hardly ever cried so I 
knew that was big.

Audrey





From aaoconnor2002 at yahoo.com  Thu Feb  6 04:15:56 2003
From: aaoconnor2002 at yahoo.com (aaoconnor2002 <aaoconnor2002@yahoo.com>)
Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 04:15:56 -0000
Subject: What do you do when people spout racist drivel?/comments;rather long
In-Reply-To: <b1rl75+2eaj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b1snhs+jbqc@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com

Anna wrote: 
> I decided to pop in to give you a couple of thoughts; one point of 
> view, is that of a loving daughter of a very bigoted, imigrant, 
much 
> older, father.  

Me:

I am also the loving daughter of a much older father.  My dad was a 
native of the DEEP American south, born in the very early 1900's.  
Was he bigoted?  Yes, he could be.  Did he enjoy ethnic jokes?  He 
sure did.  Would he tell them in front of someone from the particular 
group the joke was aimed at?  Definitely not.  Was he a racist?  By 
definition probably yes.  He had a real issue with racially mixed 
couples but when it came to work if you gave a good days work you got 
a good days pay.  The same for everyone no matter what color.

When it was time for my 16th birthday party I wanted to invite a 
friend from school who happened to be black.  My mother was unsure 
because she didn't know what my father would say.  I told Mom that if 
I couldn't invite who I wanted then I didn't want a party at all.  
Well the party went just fine.  In fact when everybody was going home 
my dad insisted on driving my friend home because otherwise she would 
have had to walk through a very bad part of town.

I think the most telling thing about my dad, and the thing that makes 
any of my story relevant to the topic, is something that he said to 
my sister while they were watching television one day.  They were 
watching a documentary on the civil rights movement.  Several 
pictures were shown of lynchings from the 1920's.  My sister said 
something about how terrible it was what people could do to another 
human being.  Dad said there was one thing that was just as bad and 
that that was to stand there and not do anything about it.  

I'm sure it's because of his influence that my sister and I are very 
vocal.  He came a long way from where he started and I think about 
him when I read in Harry Potter that it's not what we are born that 
is important but what we become.

Audrey





From shufan90 at yahoo.com  Thu Feb  6 04:52:36 2003
From: shufan90 at yahoo.com (shufan)
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 20:52:36 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Earliest Memories of the World Outside (was Forcing Kids To Watch History Made)
In-Reply-To: <b1s96p+sk1b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20030206045236.90628.qmail@web80010.mail.yahoo.com>


 
 The earliest memory I have of something important happening on the television was President Nixon resigning from office.  I remember my parents and the majority of our neigbors all gathered together watching the television.
My mother did not watch the evening news during vietnam because she found it to upsetting to hear the death counts and did not want to pass that on to my brother and myself.
As I got older I was allowed to watch the news with my parents so they could help me understand it.
After 9/11 I learned just how much children can understand.  After two days of the coverage being on, my daughter, who was about to be 4 asked me if our house was safe and I knew it was time to restrict the television coverage for her. 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





From bkb042 at yahoo.com  Thu Feb  6 05:17:05 2003
From: bkb042 at yahoo.com (Brian <bkb042@yahoo.com>)
Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 05:17:05 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter gets seal of approval from Vatican
Message-ID: <b1sr4h+klou@eGroups.com>

Ran across this story today; thought that it might be of interest.

http://entertainment.msn.com/news/article.aspx?news=113899




From sevothtarte at gmx.net  Thu Feb  6 06:47:00 2003
From: sevothtarte at gmx.net (Torsten)
Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 07:47:00 +0100
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Earliest Memories of the World Outside (was Forcing Kids To Watch History Made)
In-Reply-To: <b1s96p+sk1b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <RL42YT2YZYOIZX646165C7GED0PLZU06.3e4204e4@tk>

Elkins:
>You know, I never understood a *thing* that was going on when I was a 
>little kid?

When I was very little I came upon my grandmother watching a soap. Since there were 
perfectly normal people on TV, I thought they were real people and asked grandma if 
WE were on TV, too. That vile old lady said Yes, and it took me several years to 
realize nobody was watching me on TV all the time, that there were no hidden cameras 
everywhere.

Evil, paranoia-causing old ladies are dangerous for one's mental health, I tell you. ^_~

-Torsten





From belleps at october.com  Thu Feb  6 08:36:09 2003
From: belleps at october.com (Beth)
Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 02:36:09 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Butterbeer / Good fanfics
In-Reply-To: <1044448051.531.21060.m12@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20030206022914.00a07760@pop.cox-internet.com>

Hmm... Yes, Winky gets drunk and passes out, and she's "up to six bottles a 
day" according to Dobby. So, very mildly alcoholic. How about cream soda 
with butterscotch schnapps?


http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent
Check out the Psychic Serpent series. I don't tend to read fanfic. I'm a 
writer and editor and I blush to admit that I've been scared away by fairly 
bad writing in the past. I'm sure that the majority of fanfic is quite more 
than acceptable, but my first few tries were, unfortunately, unpleasant. 
I've found a few things on Fiction Alley that I've liked, though, and I 
particularly enjoy this series. Well written, good character development, 
interesting and plausible (within the limits of Rowling's world). I started 
with the last book by accident and now plan to go back and read 5 and 6.

bel




From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Thu Feb  6 10:09:00 2003
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David <dfrankiswork@netscape.net>)
Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 10:09:00 -0000
Subject: Question (Godric's Hollow)
In-Reply-To: <025501c2cd4b$780c52b0$3b0afea9@family>
Message-ID: <b1tc7s+j36o@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Enchanted" <enchanted at p...> 
wrote:
> I can't remember in which book it states that Godric's hollow is 
an all muggle village. I do remember reading it and think it was in 
PoA, but can't find the page. 
> Does anyone remember approximately where it can be found? 
> 
Working from memory here...

I don't believe it is stated anywhere in the books that GH is 'all 
Muggle'.

Pettigrew killed several Muggles (assumed inhabitants) there, and it 
is frequently deduced from Hermione's remark that Hogsmeade is the 
only all-wizard village in Britain that all other places have 
Muggles - a deduction that IMO makes some leaps.

We don't in fact know, IIRC, that GH is a village - it might be a 
single house (eg a stately home), or an area in a larger 
settlement.  It is of some antiquity as mentioned in QTTA.

David




From sevothtarte at gmx.net  Thu Feb  6 10:25:29 2003
From: sevothtarte at gmx.net (Torsten)
Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 11:25:29 +0100
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Question (Godric's Hollow)
In-Reply-To: <b1tc7s+j36o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <XSNIXVGFON8UOB0E0SQTOOIXTNIZXHD.3e423819@tk>

David on GH:
>Pettigrew killed several Muggles (assumed inhabitants) there

Where does it say so in canon?

-Torsten





From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Thu Feb  6 11:02:56 2003
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David <dfrankiswork@netscape.net>)
Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 11:02:56 -0000
Subject: What do you do when people spout racist drivel?
In-Reply-To: <00b801c2cd2d$3c591a50$0301a8c0@Frodo>
Message-ID: <b1tfd0+vb6h@eGroups.com>

Heidi asked (first quoting a Washington Post article):

> Do you have any advice for how to handle situations in which 
people,
> whether it be relatives, friends, acquaintances, co-workers, 
service
> providers, whoever, make hateful comments or jokes that are
> anti-Semitic, anti-black, anti-gay, anti-Hispanic, you name it? I 
am way
> too old not to know how to handle these situations. I don't 
encourage
> the remarks in any way, but I don't condemn them either. I usually 
just
> stand there looking like an idiot and try to change the subject. 

> So the question is, just how bad is it to take the subject-changing
> approach, versus the Vocal and Righteous Objection? And can that
> "badness level" change in different circumstances?

I think these are not the only options, and the answer is very 
dependent on circumstances.

If, say, we were in a discussion about recruitment to our company, I 
would consider it essential to make it clear where I stand.  If the 
person had influence in the matter I would look for ways to take it 
further.

If it was a social occasion I would not want either to change the 
subject or rush in with my view.

IMO, it is more interesting and more fruitful to *encourage* the 
thread of conversation.  For example, I would have loved to have met 
Anna's dad, and listened to what he had to say about Mussolini, 
particularly as he was old enough to have had actual memories of 
that era, possibly even to have been politically active.

It's not just that you get the chance to hear all sorts of things 
you might not otherwise, I also think that giving people room to 
expound their views in the long run helps them to see where those 
views might have their limitations.

(I confess also to a slight naughtiness: you know how on the main 
list we from time to time talk about how a character might be 
horrible to know in real life, but is great fun to read about.  
Well, I do the reverse thing: observe real people and enjoy the 
experience as if they were a character in a book.)

Humour's good too, IMO.  How about 'Goodness me, a controversial 
topic.  Do you want a five minute argument, or the full half-hour?'

If I were a member of the group being attacked, and the person 
didn't know it, I'd get that in pretty fast, though.  That rather 
puts the ball in their court.  If they *did* know it, we are in 
completely different territory, IMO.

I sometimes sometimes wonder if people feel that if a comment is 
made, and a stand *not* taken, then some kind of defeat is being 
suffered.  Whereas if they state their position, then a record of a 
dissenting view will be kept in the minutes of the world's 
existence.  I see it sometimes in main list debates about matters of 
lesser importance.  As if, when a controversial (eg shipping 
position) view is stated, it will be understood as the last word or 
the consensus view of the group if it is not contested.

IMO, we can put unnecessary pressure on ourselves in these 
situations through thought patterns of that sort.

David




From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Thu Feb  6 11:07:05 2003
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David <dfrankiswork@netscape.net>)
Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 11:07:05 -0000
Subject: Question (Godric's Hollow)
In-Reply-To: <XSNIXVGFON8UOB0E0SQTOOIXTNIZXHD.3e423819@tk>
Message-ID: <b1tfkp+ch8o@eGroups.com>

Torsten:

> David on GH:
> >Pettigrew killed several Muggles (assumed inhabitants) there
> 
> Where does it say so in canon?

Don't Stan Shunpike and Ernie Prang talk about it in POA?  I think 
Fudge talks in the Three Broomsticks about arriving and seeing 
bodies.  Of course they all think it is Sirius' doing.  I can't 
remember if it comes up in the Shrieking Shack.

David

This is so on-topic





From lupinesque at yahoo.com  Thu Feb  6 15:06:16 2003
From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z <lupinesque@yahoo.com>)
Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 15:06:16 -0000
Subject: Earliest Memories of the World Outside (was Forcing Kids To Watch History Made)
In-Reply-To: <RL42YT2YZYOIZX646165C7GED0PLZU06.3e4204e4@tk>
Message-ID: <b1ttl8+dsas@eGroups.com>

Torsten wrote:

> I thought they were real people and asked grandma if 
> WE were on TV, too. That vile old lady said Yes, and it took me 
several years to 
> realize nobody was watching me on TV all the time, that there were 
no hidden cameras 
> everywhere.

Um, sorry, Torsten, but your grandma was telling the truth.  That's a 
nice jacket, by the way.

Amy
extremely grateful that the characters in soaps are *not* real people




From lupinesque at yahoo.com  Thu Feb  6 15:17:32 2003
From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z <lupinesque@yahoo.com>)
Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 15:17:32 -0000
Subject: Childhood disappointments
In-Reply-To: <b1s96p+sk1b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b1tuac+40ru@eGroups.com>

Elkins wrote:

> I remember a friend of mine telling me all about Patty Hearst, who 
> had been "kidnapped and brainwashed by the underground."
> 
> Well, I'd never heard the expression "the underground" before, and 
so 
> I imagined it literally.  I was envisioning these Mole People sort 
of
> revolutionaries, who all lived in weird little communities down in 
> the sewers and subway tunnels.
> 
> Needless to say, I wanted to join them.  ;-)

I thought "brainwashing" was something one could literally do with 
some kind of liquid.  I could swear I got this idea not from Patty 
Hearst but from a Bionic Woman episode where there was a brainwashing 
operation based in an ersatz hair salon, where the stuff they rubbed 
into people's scalps really did have a psychoactive effect.  Literal 
brainwashing.  No wonder kids are confused.

I also remember being absolutely certain that the child-size cars you 
could buy from Sears Roebuck had an actual engine in them.  I 
desperately wanted one.  It's a good thing I didn't get it, or I'd 
have become hysterical upon learning that the "engine" was just a 
bike pedal mechanism.

Man, growing up is just a progressive series of disenchantments, 
isn't it?  And here I just preached a whole sermon about how the 
compensations are worth it.  Now I'm trying to think what the hell 
they are.  Sex, falling in love, having enough money to buy your own 
HP books on the very first day of release, paying taxes . . . um, I 
seem to have run out.

BTW, are you referring to the actual movie, The Mole People, with the 
unforgettable John Agar?  Because I LOVE that movie (as interpreted 
by MST3K . . . I don't think I could handle the unadulterated 
version).

Amy Z




From sevothtarte at gmx.net  Thu Feb  6 16:11:50 2003
From: sevothtarte at gmx.net (Torsten)
Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 17:11:50 +0100
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Earliest Memories of the World Outside (was Forcing Kids To Watch History Made)
In-Reply-To: <b1ttl8+dsas@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <07973161D9IHYUIDTS2TO84XRLTO2W.3e428946@tk>

Amy:
>Um, sorry, Torsten, but your grandma was telling the truth.  That's a 
>nice jacket, by the way.

Damn! You should have told me before I started undressing normally instead of doing a 
fifty minutes hot strip show every evening for all those watchers before getting into 
bed.

-Torsten






From lupinesque at yahoo.com  Thu Feb  6 17:27:39 2003
From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z <lupinesque@yahoo.com>)
Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 17:27:39 -0000
Subject: Earliest Memories of the World Outside (was Forcing Kids To Watch History Made)
In-Reply-To: <07973161D9IHYUIDTS2TO84XRLTO2W.3e428946@tk>
Message-ID: <b1u5ub+82co@eGroups.com>

Torsten, or is it Truman, wrote:

>
I started undressing normally instead of doing a 
> fifty minutes hot strip show every evening for all those watchers 
before getting into 
> bed.

Sweeps week is coming up--save it for that.

Amy




From ken.kuller at veritas.com  Thu Feb  6 18:00:35 2003
From: ken.kuller at veritas.com (Kenneth M. Kuller <ken.kuller@veritas.com>)
Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 18:00:35 -0000
Subject: Bertie Beans, question from a regional group.
In-Reply-To: <b1shp9+cv92@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b1u7s3+8mtq@eGroups.com>

I'm sorry to burst your balloon, but the side panel from a package of 
Bertie Bott's Every Flavor Beans lists the following ingredients:

SUGAR, CORN SYRUP, MODIFIED FOOD STARCH, CONTAINS 2% OR LESS OF THE 
FOLLOWING: GRAPE JUICE CONCENTRATE, BLUEBERRY PUREE, BANANA PUREE, 
SPINACH POWDER, BLACK PEPPER, CITRIC ACID, MALIC ACID, MALTODEXTRIN, 
NATURAL AND ARTIFICIAL FLAVORS, COLOR ADDED, RED 40 LAKE, YELLOW 5, 
BLUE 1 & 2 LAKE, YELLOW 5 & 6 LAKE, BLUE 1, RED 40, BEESWAX, CARNAUBA 
WAX, CONFECTIONER'S GLAZE, SALT.  MANUFACTURED IN A PLANT THAT 
PROCESSES PEANUTS.


The nutritional panel proclaims thus:
NUTRITION FACTS: Serving size 1 package (505), Servings: 1, Amount 
Per Serving: Calories 180, Total Fat 0g (0% DV) Sodium 30 mg (1% DV) 
Total Carb 48g (15% DV) Sugars 35g, Protien 0g. Not a significant 
source of fat cal., sat fat, cholest, fiber, vitamin A, vitamin C, 
calcium, and iron. Percent Daily Values (DV) are based on a 2000 
calorie diet.


Don't kid yourself ... candy is candy. Whether lemon drop or vomit 
flavor, watermellon or dirt, cinnamon or grass, tuti-fruit or 
sardine, it's still sugar.

Ken Kuller


--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Lisa Armstrong 
<renitentraven at h...>" <renitentraven at h...> wrote:
[Snip]
>  The scary and unavoidable conclusion I have half-formed:
>  Bertie Bott's Every Flavoured Beans are a health food based scam 
to 
> subvert the Wizarding World away from their healthy carnivourism to 
a 
> diet of pure soya based protein.
[Snip]




From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com  Thu Feb  6 19:16:59 2003
From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent <psychic_serpent@yahoo.com>)
Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 19:16:59 -0000
Subject: What do you do when people spout racist drivel?/comments;rather long
In-Reply-To: <b1rl75+2eaj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b1ucbb+10469@eGroups.com>

> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "heiditandy" <heidit at n...> 
> wrote:
> > In perfect synchronicity with the Main List discussion of the
> > correlation between racist words and being evil, I found today's 
> > Carolyn Hax column in the Washington Post
> > (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A26878-
> > 2003Feb4.html) to
> > be particularly interesting and somewhat on topic there, but I 
> > have a feeling it would fall off topic very quickly, so while 
> > I'll give the link there, I'm also putting it up for discussion 
> > here: 

[snip--I read the column in the Philadelphia Inquirer and thought it 
was very interesting]

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "dradamsapple 
<dradamsapple at y...>" <dradamsapple at y...> wrote:

> Oh, Heidi,
> I think you've opened up a beaker of flesh-eating slugs . . .
> 
> I decided to pop in to give you a couple of thoughts; one point of 
> view, is that of a loving daughter of a very bigoted, imigrant, 
> much older, father.  My father came to the US in the late 50's 
> from Italy. [snip] Yet, till the day he died, you could not have 
> an intelligent discussion with him about anything remotely 
> political.  His thoughts on being Black, Jewish or on Mussolini 
> (he thought Mussolini was the greatest thing since sliced bread) 
> were just abhorrable (again, spelling?).  You would think someone 
> with his experiences would be a little more sympathetic, but no.   

My father, born in New Haven in 1918 and raised by a single mother, 
was similar to yours in some ways, but even more of a contradiction, 
I think.  He went to a high school that had a lot of Italian and 
Portuguese students, as well as a number of black students.  And yet 
during my lifetime I heard him say many things stereotyping people 
of Italian and Portuguese ethnicity and folks who are black.  He was 
also in India during WWII and terribly impressed by Gandhi, chalking 
it up as a highlight of his life that he saw Gandhi in a procession 
in Calcutta.  And when King started his passive resistance movement 
in the South, my dad thought it was stupid that a lot of people 
still didn't budge on their old prejudices.  (He was also prejudiced 
against Southerners--how's that for irony?)

Largely, my dad's bigotry took the form of stereotyping people.  He 
thought everyone should have the same civil rights, but he would 
make statements about what things Italians do or are good at, or 
black folks, or Asian folks, etc.  He would say many admiring things 
about various ethnic groups, but it was completely lost on him that 
he was stereotyping.  I think he thought he was very liberal and 
progressive, and in many ways he was, especially for the time in 
which he was born.  But he just didn't get the thing about not 
stereotyping people, even if you're saying something complimentary 
about a group as a whole.  The problem is you CAN'T just label any 
group with a blanket statement--good or bad--without getting into 
trouble.  Just because a person is black or gay or Italian or Jewish 
or Republican doesn't mean you can make sweeping statements about 
who they are and what they're like.

As someone who was raised by a single mother (his dad died when he 
was only two, because of the influenza epidemic of 1920, a smaller 
one than the 1918 epidemic, not that that was any comfort to my 
grandfather), you'd think he also would have been upset when others 
make blanket statements about kids who grow up with just moms.  The 
trouble was, for my dad and his older brother, it really was hard.  
They had nothing, not even their own bedrooms because their mother 
ran a boarding house and they needed to rent all of the rooms to 
Yale students to make as much money as possible, especially during 
the Depression.  My dad, his brother and their mother slept on 
couches in the living room.  

As a result, he thought that all kids should grow up with two 
parents no matter what you had to do to secure that, and 
consequently forced one of my sisters into an unhappy and unwanted 
marriage when she became pregnant at nineteen.  His personal 
experience of being the kid raised by the single mom who had to 
really struggle colored his views about this forever.  I suspect 
that some really bigoted folks have had one bad experience, or know 
someone with one really bad experience, and they are incapable of 
extrapolating and saying, "Well, all folks who are 
black/French/Lutheran/Libertarians probably aren't like that."  I 
think people have to be taught as kids to be flexible that way and 
not pigeonhole or stereotype people; it's much harder to change when 
you're older.  If there's one thing I've learned is that bigotry is 
learned behavior.  Kids don't start off thinking this way; they 
model what they see adults doing.

> One other instance of *rude remarks* comes to mind when I worked 
> for the Blood Donor program of a major hospital.  Some of the male 
> donors (mind you, I  could count them on two fingers) would make 
> remarks about the apparent sexual attractiveness of some of my 
> fellow co-workeres (female).  An obvious case of sexual 
> harrassment?  I thought so.  I finally said something to my 
> supervisor, who informed me that she would keep it in mind, but 
> that this was a rather delicate subject as these people were here 
> volunteering there time and their blood (literally).  What's a 
> *good* employee to do?  

That IS a delicate situation.  If colleagues were doing this and it 
went unchecked, it would constitute a hostile work environment.  
When I worked waiting tables in college I encountered this problem 
with some of my customers from time to time, and the real difficulty 
with this situation was that I was relying upon them for my income--
I only made about $15 a week apart from my tips.  My tips were life 
to me.  You're relying upon the generosity of people who are letting 
you open up a vein and take some of their blood, which will be life 
to someone else.  I'm not sure what to say about this except that 
it's good that, despite being boors, these people at least have the 
decency to give blood.  Sometimes customers would harrass me, I'd 
take it for the sake of a tip, and then STILL not get a decent 
reward for my forbearance.  

--Barb

(Who is pro-mushroom <g>)

http:/groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent
http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb





From urbana at charter.net  Thu Feb  6 20:12:24 2003
From: urbana at charter.net (Anne <urbana@charter.net>)
Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 20:12:24 -0000
Subject: A Clue! - grown-up Dan
In-Reply-To: <b1ojdm+83ug@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b1ufj8+6ktu@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Amy Z <lupinesque at y...>" 
<lupinesque at y...> wrote:
> In other news, I saw Moonlight Mile this weekend, and I realize I 
> have a one-track mind, but Jake Gyllenhaal looks like what you'd 
get 
> if you ran Daniel Radcliffe's photo through one of those age--a-
face-
> up-10-years computer programs.  This is too OT even for -Movie, but 
> if you're a Dan fan, check it out. 
Incidentally, it was a *good* 
> movie, which seems to have been direct-to-airline as I don't recall 
> its release at all (Dustin Hoffman, and Susan Sarandon in the best 
> performance of hers I've seen--does this sound like a recipe for 
> obscurity?), and I can't wait 'til it comes out on video so I can 
see 
> it properly and hear the dialogue that was drowned out by the 
> turbines.
> 
> Amy

I haven't seen Midnight Mile yet (sounds like something I should 
rent), but it was indeed released in theaters - though it was kind of 
a "small" movie and maybe didn't do so well at the box office. Here's 
a link to Jake Gyllenhaal's website.
http://www.jakegyllenhaal.com

I agree that Daniel could "age up" into looking a bit like Jake. 
Which means, I guess, that Jake, in glasses, might make a decent 
James Potter, eh? :-)

Anne U
(who won't even try to catch up on the 400 new messages that appeared 
in the main list wjo;e I was gone for 5 days)


 




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Thu Feb  6 20:34:57 2003
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius <coriolan@worldnet.att.net>)
Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 20:34:57 -0000
Subject: Legal Scenario: Slytherin!Rowling vs. the Fanfic Author
Message-ID: <b1ugti+8gvt@eGroups.com>

Here's a hypothetical scenario I was pondering the other day 
involving the legal status of fanfic vs. the original author's 
creations. I'll use JKR and the Harry Potter series merely to better 
illustrate the situation I have in mind. (I don't mean at all to 
suggest that the real JKR would stoop to the type of behavior I 
outline below)

Let's suppose that in some alternate, "bearded-Spock" universe that 
an author I'll designate as Slytherin!Rowling has a huge success with 
the first four volumes of her Harry Potter series. However, (unlike 
the real-life JKR), Slytherin!Rowling finds writing to be an 
increasing laborious chore, and decides that she would rather devote 
her hours to the lavish life style that her royalties have made 
possible rather than continue  to invest the months and years of 
effort that would be required to complete the series. 

Slytherin!Rowling then becomes acquainted with the phenomenon of 
fanfic, and hatches a snaky scheme worthy of Gilderoy Lockhart 
himself. She plagiarizes the best parts from two or three high-
quality full length novelizations of Year Five, with only minor 
changes in wording and releases it on May 21, 2003 (hey, this is an 
alternate universe) under the title Harry Potter and the Order of the 
Phoenix. The alternate-OoP has no acknowledgement that was largely 
derived from fanfic written by other writers. The book is once again 
a huge success with fans, 99.99% of whom are unfamiliar with the 
original fanfic works.

Neville L., an avid and skilled fanfic writer, is shocked to discover 
that whole chapters of his work were incorporated into Order of the 
Phoenix, with only minor rewording. Neville gets several e-mails from 
his friends & readers who also note the resemblance ? they are all 
sure that Neville must have collaborated with JKR, and are anxious to 
know how Neville met her. Unsure how to respond, Neville contacts a 
lawyer well versed in copyright law. 

If he had written an original work of fiction, Neville would 
obviously have grounds to bring charges of plagiarism against 
Sytherin!Rowling.  But since the characters were all her creations, 
Neville is concerned that he might be facing plagiarism charges 
himself if he tries to collect damages in court. 

How would the lawyer respond? Does fanfic have any kind of copyright 
protection vis-?-vis the original author? Could the original author 
legally "borrow" from fanfic inspired by her writings, without 
permission or acknowledgement? 

    - CMC





From ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com  Thu Feb  6 21:33:30 2003
From: ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com (Petra Pan)
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 13:33:30 -0800 (PST)
Subject: How do you outwit a Twit?
Message-ID: <20030206213330.32130.qmail@web21103.mail.yahoo.com>

According to a report at Variety.com, John
Williams (a producer on SHREK) has just sold a
pitch to Disney based on the Roald Dahl classic
illustrated children's book THE TWITS.  Script
will be written by John Cleese (FIERCE CREATURES)
and Kirk De Micco (QUEST FOR CAMELOT).

I never did actually read this title!  Looking at
the back cover,

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0141301074/ref=lib_rd_next_9/103-9496538-4027820?v=glance&s=books&vi=reader&img=9#reader-link

"Mr. and Mrs. Twit are the smelliest, 
nastiest, ugliest people in the
world. They hate everything -- except 
playing mean jokes on each other, catching
innocent birds to put in their Bird Pies, 
and making their caged monkeys, the 
Muggle-Wumps, stand on their heads 
all day.  But the Muggle-Wumps have 
had enough. They don't just want out, 
they want revenge."

Muggle-Wumps, eh?  Cleese certainly seem to have
an affinity for muggles...  :)

Quoted on that site:

Cleese, in a statement, said: "When my daughter
Camilla was about 8, it was absolutely our
favorite book to read," but while THE TWITS was
"great on character, (it was) just short on plot.
So Kirk and I worked up a scenario that we
thought was funny, and happily so did Disney."

Sounds like wicked fun to me.

Petra
a
n  :)


__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com



From jmmears at comcast.net  Thu Feb  6 21:35:48 2003
From: jmmears at comcast.net (serenadust <jmmears@comcast.net>)
Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 21:35:48 -0000
Subject: Legal Scenario: Slytherin!Rowling vs. the Fanfic Author
In-Reply-To: <b1ugti+8gvt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b1ukfk+90e4@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Caius Marcius 
<coriolan at w...>" <coriolan at w...> wrote:
> Here's a hypothetical scenario I was pondering the other day 
> involving the legal status of fanfic vs. the original author's 
> creations. I'll use JKR and the Harry Potter series merely to 
better 
> illustrate the situation I have in mind. (I don't mean at all to 
> suggest that the real JKR would stoop to the type of behavior I 
> outline below)

<Snip hypothetical Rowling not wanting to bother with writing the 
rest of the series>
> 
> Slytherin!Rowling then becomes acquainted with the phenomenon of 
> fanfic, and hatches a snaky scheme worthy of Gilderoy Lockhart 
> himself. She plagiarizes the best parts from two or three high-
> quality full length novelizations of Year Five, with only minor 
> changes in wording and releases it on May 21, 2003 (hey, this is 
an 
> alternate universe) under the title Harry Potter and the Order of 
the 
> Phoenix. The alternate-OoP has no acknowledgement that was largely 
> derived from fanfic written by other writers. The book is once 
again 
> a huge success with fans, 99.99% of whom are unfamiliar with the 
> original fanfic works.
> 
> Neville L., an avid and skilled fanfic writer, is shocked to 
discover 
> that whole chapters of his work were incorporated into Order of 
the 
> Phoenix, with only minor rewording. Neville gets several e-mails 
from 
> his friends & readers who also note the resemblance ? they are
all 
> sure that Neville must have collaborated with JKR, and are anxious 
to 
> know how Neville met her. Unsure how to respond, Neville contacts 
a 
> lawyer well versed in copyright law. 
> 
> If he had written an original work of fiction, Neville would 
> obviously have grounds to bring charges of plagiarism against 
> Sytherin!Rowling.  But since the characters were all her 
creations, 
> Neville is concerned that he might be facing plagiarism charges 
> himself if he tries to collect damages in court. 
> 
> How would the lawyer respond? Does fanfic have any kind of 
copyright 
> protection vis-?-vis the original author? Could the original 
author 
> legally "borrow" from fanfic inspired by her writings, without 
> permission or acknowledgement? 


I'm not an attorney and obviously have no professional expertise in 
this area, but I think that poor Neville is well and truly screwed.
Based on the little I've read on the topic, fanfic occupies a very 
hazy netherword, legally.  It's only the fact that the authors 
receive no monetary compensation for their creations that, for now, 
allows the phenomenom to continue to be unrestricted.  What would 
Neville be asking the court to do?  Give him credit on the book 
jacket?  Actual monetary compensation?

If he did ask for either it's likely he could expect to be counter-
sued for trying to profit for his use of someone else's creation, 
and rightly so.  No matter how distasteful the above scenario is, we 
all know who all the characters "belong" to, and it's not anyone 
writing fanfic. IMO anyone who writes fanfic does so accepting the 
risk of the above (extremely unlikely) situation.  Fortunately, I 
think that Rowlings talent and integrity make it impossible for your 
scenario to ever take place.  However, it does seem plausible that a 
lesser original author (or TV writer, etc) could actually take the 
action you've outlined above and the fanfic author wouldn't be able 
to do anything about it.  It's the price you pay for using someone 
else's creation as the basis for your own stories.

Thanks for asking such an interesting question.  I'm curious to hear 
opinions from those who do have legal expertise, as well as people 
who actually do write fanfic.

Jo Serenadust




From tahewitt at yahoo.com  Thu Feb  6 21:54:48 2003
From: tahewitt at yahoo.com (Tyler Hewitt)
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 13:54:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Earliest Memories of the World Outside
In-Reply-To: <1044526145.1794.41538.m3@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20030206215448.6242.qmail@web14201.mail.yahoo.com>

I remember being out of school with the flu when I was
in kindergarten ot first grade. My Mom had to go to
work (single parent), so I was taken to a friend's
home. I was lying on the couch watching tv there, and
saw a bunch of dates scroll by on the screen. I asked
my Mom's friend, and was told that was how people were
called up for the draft to fight in Vietnam. If your
birthday came up on screen, you had to report. I
remember at the time that seemed pretty scary.

I also have a vague memory of watching the launch of
the Apollo mission taking the first people to the
moon. I would have been 5 or 6 then.

I was about 10 years old during the Watergate
hearings. I watched some of it, even though it was
boring, because I knew it was important. So I guess I
was forcing myself to watch historically significant
things!

Tyler

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com



From heidit at netbox.com  Thu Feb  6 22:16:58 2003
From: heidit at netbox.com (heiditandy <heidit@netbox.com>)
Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 22:16:58 -0000
Subject: REPOST: Re: Legal Scenario: Slytherin!Rowling vs. the Fanfic Author
Message-ID: <b1umsr+52of@eGroups.com>

I caught a BAD typo and deleted my original. If you get this via 
digest, forget what you just read, and reread my first paragraph 
here. if you get it via email and read this first, delete the other. 
Thanks!
--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "heiditandy <heidit at n...>" 
<heidit at n...> wrote:
Caius wrote:

> Neville L., an avid and skilled fanfic writer, is shocked to 
discover 
> that whole chapters of his work were incorporated into Order of 
the 
> Phoenix, with only minor rewording. Neville gets several e-mails 
from 
> his friends & readers who also note the resemblance ? they are
all 
> sure that Neville must have collaborated with JKR, and are anxious 
to 
> know how Neville met her. Unsure how to respond, Neville contacts 
a 
> lawyer well versed in copyright law. 
> 
> If he had written an original work of fiction, Neville would 
> obviously have grounds to bring charges of plagiarism against 
> Sytherin!Rowling. But since the characters were all her 
creations, 
> Neville is concerned that he might be facing plagiarism charges 
> himself if he tries to collect damages in court. 
> 
> How would the lawyer respond? Does fanfic have any kind of 
copyright 
> protection vis-?-vis the original author? Could the original 
author 
> legally "borrow" from fanfic inspired by her writings, without 
> permission or acknowledgement? 


Le grand sigh.

Where do I begin?

1. There is no such thing as a plagiarism charge. No such thing 
as "grounds of plagiarism". They do not exist as legal concepts at 
all - not in the US and not in the UK. There is, however, a private 
right of action in copyright infringement. Plagiarism has no place in 
a legal analysis. 

That aside...

2. There is no copyright for an idea. In other words, if Neville's 
ideas were all used, but none of his actual, original word choices, 
then there would be no copyright infringement going on. 

3. Copyright vests in a work at the moment the work is fixed in a 
permanent and retrievable form. Therefore, copyright vests in fanfic 
at the moment it is written, at least for all the work that is 
original. 

4. One could take *word for word* selections from one's fanfic, and 
transmogrify them into an original story, and the entirity of the 
original story would be protected by copyright, despite the fact that 
portions of that work originated as fanfic. 

5. However, it is unlikely that a fanfic writer can obtain full 
copyright protection for his or her own work. As Rebecca Tushnet 
wrote in her 1997 law journal article (which she told me last month 
is somewhat out of date, but on this matter, it does stll hold), 
<<Gracen v. Bradford Exchange, 698 F.2d 300 (7th Cir. 1983), 
illustrates the problem. Gracen entered a contest that asked for 
paintings of Dorothy in Oz. The defendant told the contestants, "your 
interpretation must evoke all the warm feeling the people have for 
the film and its actors. So, your Judy/Dorothy must be very 
recognizable as everybody's Judy/Dorothy." Gracen's paintings won the 
contest because passers-by at a shopping center liked them best. When 
Gracen could not agree on payment with the defendant, the defendant 
hired another artist to reproduce her painting for its commemorative 
plates. The court held both that Gracen could not copyright her 
painting of Dorothy and that her painting might be a copyright 
infringement. >>

She also writes: To prevent fan authors from claiming their ideas 
have been stolen by the original copyright holder, it makes sense to 
hold that fan fiction cannot itself be copyrighted, but that 
conclusion does not require the further step of considering fan 
fiction an infringement. Indeed, the law could allow fan authors to 
copyright their writings and hold that the original copyright holder 
has a unique privilege or implied license to use them. There is no 
reason fan authors should receive all or nothing when intellectual 
property law is replete with partial rights. 

However, Rebecca notes, and I concurr, that the above is simply an 
idealization/extrapolation of the current copyright-law-take on 
fanfic and the standards and practices of most fanfic writers. It is 
not actually the law in any jurisdiction in the US, in part because 
there is no caselaw regarding internet- or zine-published fanfic (in 
contrast to movie treatments and published-and-sold-in-bookstores 
works, both of which are the subject of at least one published 
case).  

Actually, derivative works are protectable under copyright law, as 
shown in the following selections from the Copyright Act:

A "derivative work" is a work based upon one or more preexisting 
works, such as a translation, musical arrangement, dramatization, 
fictionalization, motion picture version, sound recording, art 
reproduction, abridgment, condensation, or any other form in which a 
work may be recast, transformed, or adapted. A work consisting of 
editorial revisions, annotations, elaborations, or other 
modifications, which, as a whole, represent an original work of 
authorship, is a "derivative work".

17 USC ?103(b) says this about derivative works:

The copyright in a compilation or derivative work extends only to the 
material contributed by the author of such work, as distinguished 
from the preexisting material employed in the work, and does not 
imply any exclusive right in the preexisting material. The copyright 
in such work is independent of, and does not affect or enlarge the 
scope, duration, ownership, or subsistence of, any copyright 
protection in the preexisting material.

Accordingly, IMNLALO (in my "no legal advice!" opinion), Neville 
should actually sue Rowling over this and make some great caselaw. 
And reliance on 17 USC 103(b) would allow a solid argument that the 
original work contained in the fanfic is entirely protectable by 
copyright - and that he *owns* that copyright. 

Further, he'd have some excellent cases on his side, including the 
recent Barbie Girl decision (gotta love that Judge Kozinski!) as well 
as The Wind Gone Done, from about two years ago. The proportion of 
original content in your average novel-length fanfic is tremendous, 
and to say that such content should be utterly unprotectable by 
copyright seems to fly in the face of longstanding caselaw on the 
copyright status of transformative and derivative works. 

Of course, in the real world JKR's already said that (a) she's read 
some fanfic, and (b) she has no problem with "innocent" fanfic 
(whatever the heck that means) by genuine fans, which of course we 
all are...

So the weird thing about this is (assuming JKR hadn't created a 
laches/aquiesence situation regarding fanfic (this *is* an AU!)) that 
JKR could go after Neville for copyright infringement regarding her 
copyright in her characters. And he could countersue for her use of 
his words in her novel. 

Would be *quite* fun.

Of course, there may've been a case in the past 2 days which 
invalidates everything I've said here, so don't take it as absolute 
truth. Furthermore, none of the above applies outside the US. 


heidi
--- End forwarded message ---





From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com  Thu Feb  6 22:27:32 2003
From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent <psychic_serpent@yahoo.com>)
Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 22:27:32 -0000
Subject: Psychic Serpent Trilogy and Prequel Updated
Message-ID: <b1ungk+6h6a@eGroups.com>

Chapter 16 of the Triangle Prophecy (Harry's seventh year and third 
installment in the Psychic Serpent Trilogy) and Chapter 10 of the 
Lost Generation are both up on Schnoogle.

Harry Potter and the Triangle Prophecy
http://www.schnoogle.com/authors/barb/TP01.html
Chapter 16: Hearth

In which we find out who was with Ron the night before the full 
moon, Harry and Hermione slip into old habits, Ron goes away for a 
little R & R, Malfoy seems like he's going to explode every time he 
sees Ginny and Neville together, and we find out how Fleur is doing 
since Draco Malfoy cursed her.  Oh, and Hagrid is finally clued in 
concerning a secret ability Harry has had since his fifth year.  
(About time, too.)

The above link is for the first chapter.  For Chapter 16, go to:  

http://www.schnoogle.com/cgi-bin/links/jump.cgi?ID=7190

The prequel to the Psychic Serpent Trilogy concerns a great many 
things mentioned in the trilogy, but you get to see them unfold 
first-hand here, starting in Bill Weasley's first year of school and 
continuing a little bit past the Potters' deaths. (Unlike the 
Trilogy, there are multiple points of view and therefore a wee bit 
more slash than in the Trilogy.)

The Lost Generation (1975-1982)
http://www.schnoogle.com/authors/barb/LG01.html
Chapter 10: The Prophecy

In which Lily and James officially become a couple; Snape is 
recruited by Lucius to "cultivate" Barty Crouch, Jr.; Lily runs into 
an Auror and figures out what she wants to do when she leaves 
school, and the Prophecy--the one for which the Triangle Prophecy is 
named--is given.  (Ten house points if you've already guessed who 
the Seeress is.  But--you may be surprised.)

The above link is for the first chapter.  For Chapter 10, go to:

http://www.schnoogle.com/cgi-bin/links/jump.cgi?ID=7021

Chapter 17 of The Triangle Prophecy should be up on the Psychic 
Serpent Yahoo group tomorrow evening (Alicia reappears and Harry 
tells someone else about his Other Life).  Chapter 11 of Lost 
Generation is there already--it will be sent to Schnoogle soon.  

Coming next week: The submissions for the Psychic Serpent 
Valentine's challenge will be posted on the group (romances set in 
the PS universe, including my very own Remus/OC outtake from Chapter 
11 of Lost Generation--just so you know, it's slash).  Then on 
Friday, Valentine's day itself, Chapter 12 of Lost Generation will 
be posted, featuring James and Lily's wedding, loads of music, and 
the requisite Angsty!Snape.  Come on over!


--Barb

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent





From wedgeaholic at icqmail.com  Thu Feb  6 22:31:30 2003
From: wedgeaholic at icqmail.com (cathubodva_raven <wedgeaholic@icqmail.com>)
Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 22:31:30 -0000
Subject: Bertie Beans, question from a regional group.
In-Reply-To: <b1u7s3+8mtq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b1uno2+t7v5@eGroups.com>

Before moving on to Lisa(for whom I feel compelled to find a 
nickname)'s question,  I fell I have to clear up the facts for Ken.

> Don't kid yourself ... candy is candy. Whether lemon drop or vomit 
> flavor, watermellon or dirt, cinnamon or grass, tuti-fruit or 
> sardine, it's still sugar.

Yes, Ken, we Muggles can go into Coles, or Woolworths (for us in 
AUSTRALIA, anyway.  Aussie Aussie Aussie Oi Oi Oi!) and buy a packet 
of Bertie Bott's every flavour beans.

Now I'm going to let you in on a big secret - they're not the REAL 
Bertie Bott's Every Flavour Beans.  I know, because I've tried them.  
They taste like jellybeans that have overdosed on food colouring.  
This doesn't match with JKR's description of them at all.

The conclusion: the product sold to us is not the real thing.  Which 
stands to reason, and Bertie's WW product is *enchanted* to taste 
like other things (you don't think they use *real* vomit, do you?).  
We've been deceived with a Muggle version of the WW equivalent.

All clear now?  :-) 
(Please don't make me bring up the 'fags' argument.)

> >  The scary and unavoidable conclusion I have half-formed:
> >  Bertie Bott's Every Flavoured Beans are a health food based scam 
> >  to subvert the Wizarding World away from their healthy 
> >  carnivourism to a diet of pure soya based protein.

Lucius?  Why yes, it does seem the sort of thing that he would have a 
hand in.  (I suspect his 'donations' to St Mungo's buy drugs to keep 
his political enemies doped up to their eyeballs)  But what about the 
House-Elves?  By all accounts, they're very good cooks, and being a 
good cook is as much theory as it is practice.  Are they aware of 
this diabolical plot?  Is that why they serve such heavy, animal-
based foods as black pudding?

Or - are they unwitting pawns?  Serving the same dishes they have 
served for generations, unaware that (maybe) the tastes of young 
people are changing?

Or are the House-Elves Ever So Evil?  Deliberately serving offal, 
haggis etc to drive the students forward into Lucius' Vegetarian 
Nightmare?

Okay, maybe I haven't taken this seriously enough, but it's difficult 
to be serious when Snape the Smartie is sititng on your computer.  
(He scowled at you Lisa, he must be feeling particularly friendly 
today.)

And I agree with you, by the way, there probably wouldn't be much 
response to this question on the HPfGU Australia list.  But wouldn't 
it be nice if more Australians (Aussie Aussie Aussie Oi Oi Oi) came 
out of the woodwork, then we could.  ;-)

Cathubodva.




From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com  Thu Feb  6 22:40:42 2003
From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent <psychic_serpent@yahoo.com>)
Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 22:40:42 -0000
Subject: Legal Scenario: Slytherin!Rowling vs. the Fanfic Author
In-Reply-To: <b1ukfk+90e4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b1uo9a+1bvf@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "serenadust 
<jmmears at c...>"   However, it does seem plausible that a 
> lesser original author (or TV writer, etc) could actually take the 
> action you've outlined above and the fanfic author wouldn't be 
> able to do anything about it.  It's the price you pay for using 
> someone else's creation as the basis for your own stories.

If the person who did the stealing copied what you wrote word for 
word, then, based on what Heidi already posted, that sounds to me 
like you, as the person who actually authored the words, would have 
a case to make.  (Suppose, instead, that a fic that was based on 
some peripheral HP characters showed up as an episode of Charmed, 
with a lot of dialogue that was identical to that in the fic.  I 
believe, as a complete non-lawyer, mind you, that the fanfic author 
could sue the writer and/or producer of that episode, even though 
the author was originally using JKR's characters and even though the 
story was transferred to the Charmed universe.)

Plus, have to keep in mind that there are legal fanfics out there, 
or rather, derivative works produced with the full 
permission/cooperation of the originators.  Take Buffy/Angel and 
Charmed, for instance.  There are shelves and shelves of novels 
taking place in these universes available at your local bookstore 
(assuming it's one of those big chains).  How do we know whether any 
of those books has been plagiarized from fanfiction (from any fandom 
at all)?  Unless you take the time to read each and every one of 
them (and read all fanfiction available everywhere), you don't.  I'm 
well aware of the possibility of people stealing my words when I 
post fanfiction, but that's why I DON'T post my original fiction, 
some of which has grown out of my fanfic.  I've been rather unhappy 
whenever someone has plagiarized my work, but I suppose that's a 
danger of posting on the web.  The difference when someone who has 
published a book plagiarizes is that they are making money at it, 
and the original author is not seeing a dime or getting credit in 
any way.

To finish, I severely doubt that JKR would ever steal any of the 
lame things we put in our fanfics <g>.  I certainly hope she's going 
to give us something better in OotP than the collective ramblings of 
thousands of web-publishing Potterfans.  After all, she has to give 
us a reason to tear ourselves away from our computers when the new 
book comes out, right?

--Barb
 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent
http://schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb




From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Thu Feb  6 23:14:56 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve <bboy_mn@yahoo.com>)
Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 23:14:56 -0000
Subject: Legal Scenario: Slytherin!Rowling vs. the Fanfic Author
In-Reply-To: <b1ugti+8gvt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b1uq9g+136d@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Caius Marcius
<coriolan at w...>" <coriolan at w...> wrote:
> Here's a hypothetical scenario I was pondering the other day 
> involving the legal status of fanfic vs. the original author's 
> creations. 
> 
> ...edited...
>
> Neville L., an avid and skilled fanfic writer, is shocked to 
> discover that whole chapters of his work were incorporated into 
> Order of the Phoenix, with only minor rewording. ... Neville 
> contacts a lawyer well versed in copyright law. 
> 
> ...edited... 
> Neville is concerned that he might be facing plagiarism charges 
> himself if he tries to collect damages in court. 
> 
> How would the lawyer respond? ...
> 
>     - CMC

bboy_mn:

Does anybody here know who Ted Turner is; he's the guy who started
Turner Broadcast which is on cable? I think he is out of the company
now, but it still bares his name.

One of Ted Turner's ideas to make money was to take really old famous
classic black and white movies and colorize them, then show them
royalty free on his network. The people who still had rights to these
films wanted their royalties, so they took Turner to court. Turner
originally claimed the these films were so old, they were in public
domain. But when it actually came to the courtroom stategy, they went
with something better.

The court rule in favor of Turner. They claimed that by colorizing the
movies, he had added artistic merit to them and thereby, created a new
independant work of art to which only Turner had royalty rights.

So our hypothetical author Neville, has used JKR's characters in a not
for profit way, and created a new work of art. His writing is a unique
one of a kind original story that has been published (on the
Internet). As soon as he published it, he established his Copyright
rights to it. Now if Neville tries to comercialize on his original
story, then he would owe royalties to JKR assuming JKR would allow her
characters to be use for profit.

Despite the two authors using the same core characters, Neville has
truly created a unique work of art; a copyrighted work of art. So I
think Neville would have a case that would allow him to extract some
payment from the use of his work of art.

Just an opinion.

bboy_mn




From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca  Fri Feb  7 00:36:18 2003
From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (lucky_kari <lucky_kari@yahoo.ca>)
Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 00:36:18 -0000
Subject: Childhood disappointments And First View of the Outside World
In-Reply-To: <b1tuac+40ru@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b1uv22+i7rs@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Amy Z <lupinesque at y...>" 
> I also remember being absolutely certain that the child-size cars you 
> could buy from Sears Roebuck had an actual engine in them.  I 
> desperately wanted one.  It's a good thing I didn't get it, or I'd 
> have become hysterical upon learning that the "engine" was just a 
> bike pedal mechanism.

Wait a second, they don't?

No, I'm completely serious. Damn! 
 
<everyone shakes their heads>

I thought all dogs were pitbulls.

I also thought the U.S.S.R. was a pyramid scheme cult, not a country. 

I thought "the Government" was the title of Canada's unelected dictator. 

I thought that the political party my parents belonged to was a
military organization that was going to eventually march on Ottawa. 

I thought my local MP was a murderer. 

I thought the teenagers at the local playground were terrorists who
had blown up a bus in Vancouver. 

I thought a display protesting the introduction of the General Sales
Tax, showing boots sticking out of a toilet (I guess to show that the
GST would flush Canada down the train)was some real person who had met
an unfortunate end. After that, I was deathly afraid of toilets.

I thought our mayor ate babies. 

I thought that my friend's father worked for Canada's intelligence
agency, and that enemy spies were after him. (He worked for a security
system company.)

etc. etc. etc. etc.

My first real memory of the outside world was that failed coup when
Yeltsin stood on the tank. I feel robbed of my fall of my Berlin Wall
memory, which everyone else my age seems to possess.
And then there was the Gulf War, in which I hadn't the slightest idea
what really happened, except that I was quite sure Saddam Hussein was
going to attack our city soon, and World War III was beginning.
Whenever I saw anyone wearing camoflauge on TV, I knew the end was nigh. 

Oh, I lived in an exciting world. You can tell that my parents talked
a lot about current affairs, and I sort of pasted it together. 

So, while I may be disillusioned, the world has actually improved for
me. I gather this is the opposite of most people's experience.

Eileen




From jmmears at comcast.net  Fri Feb  7 01:35:40 2003
From: jmmears at comcast.net (serenadust <jmmears@comcast.net>)
Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 01:35:40 -0000
Subject: Legal Scenario: Slytherin!Rowling vs. the Fanfic Author
In-Reply-To: <b1uo9a+1bvf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b1v2hc+3qdb@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "psychic_serpent 
<psychic_serpent at y...>" <psychic_serpent at y...> wrote:
>
I wrote:
   However, it does seem plausible that a 
> > lesser original author (or TV writer, etc) could actually take 
the 
> > action you've outlined above and the fanfic author wouldn't be 
> > able to do anything about it.  It's the price you pay for using 
> > someone else's creation as the basis for your own stories.


Barb replied:
> If the person who did the stealing copied what you wrote word for 
> word, then, based on what Heidi already posted, that sounds to me 
> like you, as the person who actually authored the words, would 
have 
> a case to make.  (Suppose, instead, that a fic that was based on 
> some peripheral HP characters showed up as an episode of Charmed, 
> with a lot of dialogue that was identical to that in the fic.  I 
> believe, as a complete non-lawyer, mind you, that the fanfic 
author 
> could sue the writer and/or producer of that episode, even though 
> the author was originally using JKR's characters and even though 
the 
> story was transferred to the Charmed universe.)

Me:
I suppose (again, as a non-lawyer) the fanfic author could have a 
case to make in the situation described above.  I think that your 
example is a bit different from the one in the original post, since 
it involves a third party, if I understand it correctly (HP by JKR, 
HP by fanfic author, writer for TV show).  I have no idea what the 
outcome would be in that case, but it would certainly be interesting 
to follow.


Barb wrote:
> Plus, have to keep in mind that there are legal fanfics out there, 
> or rather, derivative works produced with the full 
> permission/cooperation of the originators.  Take Buffy/Angel and 
> Charmed, for instance.  There are shelves and shelves of novels 
> taking place in these universes available at your local bookstore 
> (assuming it's one of those big chains).  How do we know whether 
any 
> of those books has been plagiarized from fanfiction (from any 
fandom 
> at all)?  Unless you take the time to read each and every one of 
> them (and read all fanfiction available everywhere), you don't.  
I'm 
> well aware of the possibility of people stealing my words when I 
> post fanfiction, but that's why I DON'T post my original fiction, 
> some of which has grown out of my fanfic.  I've been rather 
unhappy 
> whenever someone has plagiarized my work, but I suppose that's a 
> danger of posting on the web.  The difference when someone who has 
> published a book plagiarizes is that they are making money at it, 
> and the original author is not seeing a dime or getting credit in 
> any way.


Yes, I think that when money is involved, the legalities become 
clearer.  Do fanfic authors actually plagiarize each others work?
I never imagined that actually went on.


Barb again: 
> To finish, I severely doubt that JKR would ever steal any of the 
> lame things we put in our fanfics <g>.  I certainly hope she's 
going 
> to give us something better in OotP than the collective ramblings 
of 
> thousands of web-publishing Potterfans.  After all, she has to 
give 
> us a reason to tear ourselves away from our computers when the new 
> book comes out, right?


I think you're absolutely right!

Jo Serenadust




From heidit at netbox.com  Fri Feb  7 01:43:24 2003
From: heidit at netbox.com (heiditandy)
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 20:43:24 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Legal Scenario: Slytherin!Rowling vs. the Fanfic Author
In-Reply-To: <b1v2hc+3qdb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <001a01c2ce4a$4de2b4c0$0301a8c0@Frodo>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: serenadust <jmmears at comcast.net> [mailto:jmmears at comcast.net] 

> 
> Yes, I think that when money is involved, the legalities become 
> clearer.  Do fanfic authors actually plagiarize each others work?
> I never imagined that actually went on.

We have had submissions to FA that are, word for word, works of other
fanfic authors. Barb is one of them - but I know of at least six others.
Someone once wrote a fic about Death Eaters that took place in Marauder
days and used the "creed" that I had Barty force Draco to say under
Imperio in class - they didn't ask me, but they did say it was from my
fic, so it wasn't plagiarism - they credited me. It was still a little
weird to see it there - completely unexpected. 




From ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com  Fri Feb  7 01:58:20 2003
From: ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com (Petra Pan)
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 17:58:20 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [was] Earliest Memories of the World Outside
In-Reply-To: <b1u5ub+82co@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20030207015820.57724.qmail@web21106.mail.yahoo.com>

Amy:
> Torsten, or is it Truman, wrote:
> 
> > I started undressing normally instead of 
> > doing a fifty minutes hot strip show every 
> > evening for all those watchers before
> > getting into bed.
> 
> Sweeps week is coming up--save it for that.

<giggle>

So, Torsten (or is it Ed?), what do you have
planned for the season cliffhanger?

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com



From heidit at netbox.com  Fri Feb  7 02:08:43 2003
From: heidit at netbox.com (Heidi Tandy)
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 22:08:43 -0400
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Legal Scenario: Slytherin!Rowling vs. the Fanfic Author
Message-ID: <mailman.28.1576049043.5361.hpfgu-otchatter@archive.hpfgu.org>

Barb replied:
> If the person who did the stealing copied what you wrote word for 
> word, then, based on what Heidi already posted, that sounds to me 
> like you, as the person who actually authored the words, would 
have 
> a case to make.  (Suppose, instead, that a fic that was based on 
> some peripheral HP characters showed up as an episode of Charmed, 
> with a lot of dialogue that was identical to that in the fic.  I 
> believe, as a complete non-lawyer, mind you, that the fanfic 
author 
> could sue the writer and/or producer of that episode, even though 
> the author was originally using JKR's characters and even though 
the 
> story was transferred to the Charmed universe.)

Serenadust replied:
I suppose (again, as a non-lawyer) the fanfic author could have a 
case to make in the situation described above.  I think that your 
example is a bit different from the one in the original post

Now, me:
Actually, it wouldn't. If the fanfic is protectable by copyright, at least in terms of the original content, it wouldn't matter who infringed on it - whether jkr or a third party.     

Once a work is protected by copyright, it's protected against any infringers. 

The difference would be that jkr could countersue for copyright infringement, whereas the third party infringer couldn't. 



From heidit at netbox.com  Fri Feb  7 02:39:25 2003
From: heidit at netbox.com (Heidi Tandy)
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 22:39:25 -0400
Subject: Fw:other books with the Philosopher's Stone
Message-ID: <mailman.29.1576049043.5361.hpfgu-otchatter@archive.hpfgu.org>

As I'm making it fully off topic, does anyone else have recs of books containing the philosopher's stone?

My personal favorite is Katherine Neville's The Eight, which takes place in both French revolutionary times and the 1970's, just before opec became powerful. Among the characters are Napoleon, Catherine the Great, William Blake, Talleyrand, Rousseau, Bach and Khadafi. And some very sexy chess players. 


Heidi Tandy
Follow me to FictionAlley - Harry Potter fanfics of all shapes, sizes and ships - 7 sickles an ounce
http://www.FictionAlley.org 
-----Original Message-----
From: "Caius Marcius <coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com>" <coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 02:36:10 
To:HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR influenced by Frankenstein? Stone and Elixir

Real-To:  "Caius Marcius <coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com>" <coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com>

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bookworm417 <bookworm-
417 at c...>" <bookworm-417 at c...> wrote:
 I'm a high school student 
> and had never heard of the philosopher's stone or elixir of life 
> until HP; I assumed JKR had made them up!  Are they common 
> fictional elements or historical objects or....?
> 
> ~Alicia~
> Who was amazed and ecstatic to find a HP parallel in 
> school-required reading and still has MANY pages to read 
> before a "Did you read? quiz" tomorrow 3rd period.

Nicholas Flamel (1326-1410???) was an actual person: see here for a 
detailed bio 

http://www.alchemylab.com/flamel.htm


And to give you give you another literary example: in Gabriel Garcia 
Marquez's One Hundred Years of Solitude (1967), the protean patriarch 
of the Buendia family, Jose Arcadio Buendia, tries to create (without 
success) the Philosopher's Stone in his rudimentary laboratory deep 
in the Columbian jungle. (the episode is recounted in the book's 
second chapter)

   - CMC


________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________

Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File!
http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin

Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying!

Is your message...
An announcement of merchandise, news, a website etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements.
Movie-related? Book-movie comparison? Send it to HPFGU-Movie.
Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups.
None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter.
Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- mods at hpfgu.org.uk

Unsubscribing? Email hpforgrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
____________________________________________________________ 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 





From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Fri Feb  7 03:55:32 2003
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd <jkusalavagemd@yahoo.com>)
Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 03:55:32 -0000
Subject: Earliest Memories of the World Outside (was Forcing Kids To Watch History Made)
In-Reply-To: <b1qrp0+a61f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b1vank+h0rv@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Amy Z <lupinesque at y...>" 
<lupinesque at y...> wrote:


> 
> Mind you, I didn't understand what Watergate *was.*  I thought it 
> sounded quite exciting--I pictured a great seawall with the ocean 
> lashing it--but I asked my mom what it was and she said "a hotel."  
> Yawn.  I do recall thinking that John Chancellor was Nixon.  After 
> all, his was the face I saw every night, and Nixon Nixon Nixon was 
> the name I heard.  I regret to this day that I didn't write to 
> Chancellor telling him this before he died.  He'd probably have 
been 
> amused.
> 
> Amy Z

My earliest memory of the "Real" world of adults was a fleeting 
glimpse  from my dad's car of an "I like Ike" poster during the 
presidential campaign of 1956.  I never connected it to anything at 
the time, but many years later (I was seven at the time) when I 
studied history, the memory of that poster resurfaced and I did 
finally make the connection.

I also recall hearing of someone being a "spitting image" of another.
For the longest time, I had images of an expectorating photograph of 
some kind.  Again, many years later I learned about the "spit and 
image" one had to obtain from one's target-- or any other body part, 
like fingernail parings--that went into the making of a magical 
simulacrum for spellcasting, an example of which is the voodoo doll.

It's amazing the interesting things kids come up with when they try 
to understand things based on partial or eroneous infromation.

Haggridd






From sushi at societyhappens.com  Fri Feb  7 07:30:08 2003
From: sushi at societyhappens.com (Sushi)
Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 01:30:08 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Earliest Memories of the World
  Outside (was Forcing Kids To Watch History Made)
In-Reply-To: <20030206045236.90628.qmail@web80010.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <b1s96p+sk1b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030207011528.00ce7e50@mail.societyhappens.com>

	Jumping on the bandwagon, here...

	The earliest memory I've got of a politically-inclined nature is: when I 
was two, I was out shopping with my mom.  We were going to Carter's - 
children's wear - and I asked her, "Does the president own the 
store?"  Took her a little while to convince me that not everyone with the 
surname "Carter" was related to the president.

	I also remember when Reagan was shot - I was about five by then, so I 
remember a lot from that period - and when the U2 was shot down over 
Moscow.  By that time, I had developed the firm belief that, despite what 
the people on the news said, not everyone in Russia was evil.  I mean, hey, 
they made those cool little stacking dolls - nobody who made those could be 
evil, right?  Got some strange looks from my preschool teacher when I told 
her to her face that there wasn't anything wrong with Russians; I think she 
thought I was some Junior Communist Party Representative, not that I'd have 
known what that meant (or cared).  I mean, really, snow, stacking dolls, 
kids having snowball fights on the news, looked like my idea of paradise at 
that age.

	I also remember *loathing* "Trapper John, MD", because it came on at 8:30, 
which was my bedtime.  It was a huge deal to even get through the 
credits.  That show still carries the most twisted "forbidden fruit" tinge 
for me.  'Course, as soon as bedtime hit, I'd wait until my parents were 
downstairs, sneak down the hall, and pilfer as many volumes of the World 
Book as possible in order to read under the covers until I passed out, 
drooling on dinosaurs and volcanoes.

	I was a weird little kid.

Sushi




From sushi at societyhappens.com  Fri Feb  7 08:01:37 2003
From: sushi at societyhappens.com (Sushi)
Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 02:01:37 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Bertie Beans, question from a regional
  group.
In-Reply-To: <b1shp9+cv92@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030207014921.00ce4390@mail.societyhappens.com>

         Lisa wrote:

>Essentially whilst preparing my speciality of marinated tofu last
>night I was struck by a scary thought.
>
>Tofu is natures every flavoured bean. Yes?
>
>   It's an eraser, you marinate it, it's chicken.
>   It's a shredded eraser, you cook with chives and worstershire
>sauce, it's a scrambled egg.
>
>The scary and unavoidable conclusion I have half-formed:
>Bertie Bott's Every Flavoured Beans are a health food based scam to
>subvert the Wizarding World away from their healthy carnivourism to a
>diet of pure soya based protein.


         You know, this is just crazy enough to work.  I mean, how many 
ingredients allow you to use half the package to make a savoury poultry 
replica for dinner, and the other half a vanilla mousse for dessert?  This 
is coming from someone who's eaten as a vegan for seven years now and has 
long since ceased to be amazed at the versatility of tofu.

         Of course, now I'm wondering if those pork chops at the Yule Ball 
were really pork at all.  Could it be that, through the magic of, er, 
magic, house-elves have managed to make a gluten-and-soy-based meat 
substitute indistinguishable from the real thing?


>And Malfoy Snr. is on the board of directors.

         Hear, hear!

         Of course, this brings to mind the question: is this great battle 
of Light vs. Dark really only a war over health food?  Picture it: 
Dumbledore, with his hard-core, right-wing pack of carnivorous devotees (I 
mean, he's got a *werewolf* on his side, how much more carnivorous can you 
get?); Voldemort, with his sly, scheming troupe of underhanded vegetarians 
just looking for another mouth to pack with soy.  Harry's epic choice 
between Gryffindor and Slytherin was really only his craving for a decent 
hamburger.  And, of course, there's Snape, who *used* to be vegetarian, and 
still dabbles with it on weekends, but from the moment that fateful steak 
touched his lips...

         Er, yeah.  Time to cut back on the Boone's Farm, I think. ;)


>Hogwarts without kippers would close, as the house elves would
>revolt. No Hogwarts = Chaos.


         Actually, you can make a pretty good substitute with some smoked 
tofu and a little seaweed... *runs*


>Or maybe I'm overreacting.


         Nah.  Just remember, it's not paranoia if they really are out to 
get you.


>And again, Please say hello to Snape the Smartie for me.)

         Snape is filled with chocolate and coated with candy?

Sushi, going to check the proof on that bottle again


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Fri Feb  7 10:13:56 2003
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David <dfrankiswork@netscape.net>)
Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 10:13:56 -0000
Subject: Fw:other books with the Philosopher's Stone
Message-ID: <b200t4+6p2t@eGroups.com>

Heidi wrote:

> As I'm making it fully off topic, does anyone else have recs of 
books containing the philosopher's stone?

The Chymical Wedding, by Lindsay Clarke.  Set in about 1980 and 
Victorian times.

It has lots of alchemy in it, though for that very reason treats the 
stone as essentially allegorical: what the alchemists *really* 
wanted from the stone was not longevity and money, but purity.  It 
was the (non-physical) thing that they wanted to be able to turn the 
base metal of their own natures into the purity that gold represents.

Anyway, I liked the book.

David




From fakeplastikcynic at hotmail.com  Fri Feb  7 12:03:06 2003
From: fakeplastikcynic at hotmail.com (martha <fakeplastikcynic@hotmail.com>)
Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 12:03:06 -0000
Subject: Fw:other books with the Philosopher's Stone
In-Reply-To: <b200t4+6p2t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b2079q+j8v3@eGroups.com>

The Neil Gaiman short story "Chivalry", which appears in the 
collection "Smoke and Mirrors", features a cameo appearance by the 
philosopher's stone. Synopsis: old lady finds the holy grail in a 
charity shop, whereupon an Arthurian knight (might be Lancelot, but I 
can't remember) turns up on her doorstep trying to trade it for 
various items, including the stone and a phoenix egg.

Well worth a read. 

By the way, for anyone who's been following the childhood memories 
thread, the site http://www.iusedtobelieve.com has some fantastic 
shattered-beliefs type stuff ("i used to believe that all dogs were 
male and all cats were female", and that sort of thing).

Back to Lurkerland
Martha

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "David <dfrankiswork at n...>" 
<dfrankiswork at n...> wrote:
> Heidi wrote:
> 
> > As I'm making it fully off topic, does anyone else have recs of 
> books containing the philosopher's stone?
> 
> The Chymical Wedding, by Lindsay Clarke.  Set in about 1980 and 
> Victorian times.
> 
> It has lots of alchemy in it, though for that very reason treats 
the 
> stone as essentially allegorical: what the alchemists *really* 
> wanted from the stone was not longevity and money, but purity.  It 
> was the (non-physical) thing that they wanted to be able to turn 
the 
> base metal of their own natures into the purity that gold 
represents.
> 
> Anyway, I liked the book.
> 
> David




From sevothtarte at gmx.net  Fri Feb  7 14:32:56 2003
From: sevothtarte at gmx.net (Torsten)
Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 15:32:56 +0100
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] [was] Earliest Memories of the World Outside
In-Reply-To: <20030207015820.57724.qmail@web21106.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <WU2ZDAKHFBVPWSPKZGDOJA91VB0A9PL.3e43c398@tk>

Petra Pan:
>So, Torsten (or is it Ed?), what do you have
>planned for the season cliffhanger?

Don't mention that movie, it makes me wonder if someone paid my ex-girlfriends ... and 
how much they had to pay them. ^_~

Really weird thing is, I actually don't like water and being on ships. But this similarity 
to The Truman Show is surely just a coincidence, right? Right? Please?

-Torsten






From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Fri Feb  7 18:07:42 2003
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David <dfrankiswork@netscape.net>)
Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 18:07:42 -0000
Subject: Occam's razor and common sense
Message-ID: <b20sle+96ka@eGroups.com>

I have been composing a reply to Grey Wolf's message 51793 on the 
main list, and part of it is definitely tangential.  Years of 
writing exams and proposals mean that I can't just throw away 
something once I have written it, so here it is.

Grey Wolf wrote:

> Occam's Razor doesn't work in books - and
> neither it does in Science, when you get right down to it. Quoting
> Terry Pratchett:
> 
> "Einstein published Special Relativity in 1905 ... the conclusion 
was
> that the universe is a lot weirder than common sense tells us,
> although they probably didn't use that actual word."
> 
> Some of the conclusions of Einsteins Theory of Relativity are
> flagrant breaches of "common sense" (on which Occam's Razor is 
based),
> like time being distorted by mass, and Time starting a few moments
> *after* the Big Bang (I still don't get that one myself).

Oddly enough, Einstein devised Special Relativity as a classic 
Occam's Razor response to experimental evidence (the Michelson-
Morley experiment) which forced Newtonian ether-based theories into 
ever less credible complexity and special pleading.  He theorised 
that the speed of light is the same no matter what speed the 
observer is travelling,  a counter-intuitive but very *simple* 
hypothesis from which all the other counter-intuitive conclusions of 
Special Relativity flow.

IMO, common sense is *never* simple.  That is why it is common.  It 
is the collected wisdom of a culture that is rarely questioned by 
its members.  Different cultures can have radically different ideas 
of what constitutes common sense.  In many cultures, it is common 
sense that you don't take food out of your family's mouth to pay 
taxes to the state.  In others it is common sense that the 
collective enterprise of the people demands a collective sacrifice 
of resources.

David




From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com  Fri Feb  7 18:53:15 2003
From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent <psychic_serpent@yahoo.com>)
Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 18:53:15 -0000
Subject: Fw:other books with the Philosopher's Stone
In-Reply-To: <b2079q+j8v3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b20var+7v0k@eGroups.com>

Heidi wrote:
 
> > > As I'm making it fully off topic, does anyone else have recs 
> > > of books containing the philosopher's stone?

I'm probably showing my age here, but Elizabeth Enright's "Gone-Away 
Lake" mentions the legend of the Philosopher's Stone.  I believe it 
may also be mentioned in Umberto Eco's "The Name of the Rose."  
Frankly, if the US version of the first book had retained 
the "Philosopher's Stone" title instead of being changed 
to "Sorcerer's Stone" I probably would have picked up on the Nicolas 
Flamel thing sooner, as I know perfectly well what alchemy is and 
could have connected it to the Philosopher's Stone.  When I first 
read the book, I thought the "Sorcerer's Stone" was something JKR 
made up.  When I reached the part describing what the Sorcerer's 
Stone is supposed to be, I thought, "That's the Philosopher's 
Stone!"  I wondered why she didn't use its proper name.  I was such 
a babe in the woods I didn't yet know that had been the original 
title.  Gah.  Changing that title should go down as one of the 
stupidest things that's ever occurred in publishing...

--Barb

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent
http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb

 




From thalia at aokp.org  Fri Feb  7 21:35:28 2003
From: thalia at aokp.org (chanteuse thalia chaunacy)
Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 13:35:28 -0800
Subject: quotes and questions
Message-ID: <WorldClient-F200302071335.AA35280386@aokp.org>

[these are all US translations from SS & CoS. i only page-referenced the 
ones i have questions on]

--------

(SSp123)Harry's mouth fell open.  The dishes in front of him were now 
piled with food.  He had never seen so many things he liked to eat on one 
table: roast beef, roast chicken, pork chops and lamb chops, sausages, 
bacon and steak, boiled potatoes, roast potatoes, fries, Yorkshire 
pudding, peas, carrots, gravy, ketchup, and, for some strange reason, 
peppermint humbugs.

[KETCHUP?? is this a US publishing misinterpretation, or is ketchup 
considered a FOOD in the UK? here it's a condiment, and would NOT be 
mentioned on such a list.  yes, it's mentioned right after gravy, but 
gravy's in the grey area between the two categories, therefore acceptable 
on said list.]

***

"I think Mom's got a second cousin who's an accountant, but we never talk 
about him." [i'm an accountant.]

***

The hat seemed to be asking rather a lot; Harry didn't feel brave or 
quick-witted or any of it at the moment.  If only the hat had mentioned a 
house for people who felt a bit queasy, that would have been the one for 
him.

[JKR's brilliant at making us laugh at Harry while retaining our sense of 
respect for him.]

***

"Transfiguration is some of the most complex and dangerous magic you will 
learn at Hogwarts," she said. "Anyone messing around in my class will 
leave and not come back. You have been warned."

Then she changed her desk into a pig and back again.

[timing!  brilliant!]

***

Harry suddenly turned to Ron.

"Charlie," he said.

"You're losing it, too," said Ron. "I'm Ron, remember?"

[ah, Ron, how i adore you]

***

Hermione did a sort of jig.

"Malfoy's got detention!  I could sing!"

"Don't," Harry advised her.

***

"Not if I can help it," said Hermione grimly. "Flitwick told me in secret 
that I got a hundred and twelve percent on his exam.  They're not 
throwing me out after that."

[one of the times i admire her most; her strength is replacing her 
whininess]

***

[when they run into Mrs. Norris while under the Invisibility Cloak]

"Oh, let's kick her, just this once," Ron whispered into Harry's ear.

***

They had hoped that Goyle, who was almost as stupid as he was mean, might 
be thrown out, but he had passed, too.  It was a shame, but as Ron said, 
you couldn't have everything in life.

***

They took turns on Harry's Ninbus Two Thousand, which was easily the 
best broom; Ron's old Shooting Star was often outstripped by passing 
butterflies.

***

"Where did you come out?" Ron asked.

"Knockturn Alley," said Harry grimly.

"*Excellent!" said Fred and George together.

***

(CoSp58) strawberry-and-peanut-butter ice creams

[is anyone else relatively revolted by this idea? or am i odd? is this a 
normal flavour in Britain?]

***

Hagrid was wading toward them through the sea of books.  In an instant he 
had pulled Mr. Weasley and Mr. Malfoy apart. Mr. Weasley had a cut lip 
and Mr. Malfoy had been hit in the eye by an *Encyclopedia of Toadstools.

[the fact that it was the Encyclopedia of Toadstools makes me roll every 
time]

***

"Everyone line up!" Malfoy roared to the crowd. "Harry Potter's giving 
out signed photos!"

"No, I'm not," said Harry angrily, his fists clenching. "Shut up, Malfoy."

"You're just jealous," piped up Colin, whose entire body was about as 
thick as Crabbe's neck.

--------

thalia 'happy dancing because she's halfway done with her Gryffindor 
scarf (on size 3 needles)' chaunacy




From john at queerasjohn.com  Fri Feb  7 22:23:38 2003
From: john at queerasjohn.com (Queer as John)
Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 22:23:38 +0000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] quotes and questions
In-Reply-To: <WorldClient-F200302071335.AA35280386@aokp.org>
Message-ID: <BA69E26A.7330%john@queerasjohn.com>

chanteuse thalia chaunacy said:

> [KETCHUP?? is this a US publishing misinterpretation, or is ketchup
> considered a FOOD in the UK? here it's a condiment, and would NOT be
> mentioned on such a list.  yes, it's mentioned right after gravy, but
> gravy's in the grey area between the two categories, therefore acceptable
> on said list.]

Actually, the text doesn't necessarily call it a food: see the ** below.

(SSp123)Harry's mouth fell open.  The dishes in front of him were now piled
with food.  He had never seen so many **things he liked to eat** on one
table: roast beef, roast chicken, pork chops and lamb chops, sausages, bacon
and steak, boiled potatoes, roast potatoes, ^^fries^^, Yorkshire pudding,
peas, carrots, gravy, ketchup, and, for some strange reason, peppermint
humbugs.

^^ "fries" will of course be a translation of "chips". See the Queens' Guide
To British English: A Highly Selective and Biased Guide to Using English in
the Harry Potter Universe.

http://www.livejournal.com/talkread.bml?journal=queerasjohn&itemid=161746

Cheers,

--J
______________________________________

Queer as John || john at queerasjohn.com

AIM, YM & LJ @ QueerAsJohn || www.queerasjohn.com

"It's raining John! Hallelujah!"
______________________________________




From drednort at alphalink.com.au  Fri Feb  7 23:18:22 2003
From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately)
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 10:18:22 +1100
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] quotes and questions
In-Reply-To: <WorldClient-F200302071335.AA35280386@aokp.org>
Message-ID: <3E44D96E.13957.47F25C5@localhost>

On 7 Feb 2003 at 13:35, chanteuse thalia chaunacy wrote:

> [KETCHUP?? is this a US publishing misinterpretation, or is ketchup 
> considered a FOOD in the UK? here it's a condiment, and would NOT be 
> mentioned on such a list.  yes, it's mentioned right after gravy, but 
> gravy's in the grey area between the two categories, therefore acceptable 
> on said list.]

Amusingly this issue has a clear answer. Ketchup is *not* a food in the US. Back in  
1981, the US Government attempted to claim that it was a food - specifically that it was 
a vegetable. They were basically looking at rules for federally subsidised school meals - 
the rules required (from memory) two vegetables to be included in the meals, and there 
was a claim made that a hot dog with ketchup and pickle relish would fit that 
requirement because both of those things were vegetables.

That attempt was defeated so ketchup has legal status as a condiment - not as a food in 
its own right.

Little bit of trivia there (-8

(And, as a matter of interest, the debate is one of the first news stories I can remember. I 
was six. I *liked* the idea that it was a vegetable, and tried to use it as an excuse not to 
eat the yukky peas my mother kept forcing on me. Didn't work.)

Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought
Shaun Hately |webpage: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html
(ISTJ)       |email: drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200

                       "Almighty Ruler of the all;
                 Whose power extends to great and small;
                 Who guides the stars with steadfast law;
                   Whose least creation fills with awe;
                     Oh grant thy mercy and thy grace;
                     To those who venture into space."




From drednort at alphalink.com.au  Fri Feb  7 23:23:15 2003
From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately)
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 10:23:15 +1100
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] quotes and questions
Message-ID: <3E44DA93.6996.483A12C@localhost>

On 8 Feb 2003 at 10:18, HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.c wrote:

> (And, as a matter of interest, the debate is one of the first news stories I can remember. I 
> was six. I *liked* the idea that it was a vegetable, and tried to use it as an excuse not to 
> eat the yukky peas my mother kept forcing on me. Didn't work.)

Dash it, the thing escaped before I was finished.

Anyway, this debacle was raised in the UK in the late 1980s when a similar reform of 
school dinners was proposed. And the British government was quick to make a 
statement that they would not make the same mistake - tomato sauce, mustard, and 
similar substances were not to be classified as foods for any nutritional purpose. So 
Ketchup isn't a food there either.

Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought
Shaun Hately |webpage: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html
(ISTJ)       |email: drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200

                       "Almighty Ruler of the all;
                 Whose power extends to great and small;
                 Who guides the stars with steadfast law;
                   Whose least creation fills with awe;
                     Oh grant thy mercy and thy grace;
                     To those who venture into space."




From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Fri Feb  7 23:34:55 2003
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David <dfrankiswork@netscape.net>)
Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 23:34:55 -0000
Subject: Reasoning about the Potterverse
Message-ID: <b21fqv+efs1@eGroups.com>

Well, this is my main response to Grey Wolf's 51793.  I can't tell 
if it makes a canon point or not, so I've put it here.  I think it's 
really about the fandom, with a big slice of amateur philosophy.  If 
any of you can spot a canon point, let me know and I will atone by 
posting a food question on the movie list and a GOF casting 
suggestion on the main list - that'll even things out, won't it?

I (David) wrote:

> > Grey Wolf has identified one of the fundamental differences 
between 
> > our interpretations of literature and our interpretations of 
real 
> > life.  In RL, we usually assume that only one interpretation is 
> > true, even if with our limited information many are possible.  
We 
> > tend to think that if only we knew a bit more then all the 
> > possibilities except one would disappear.

Grey Wolf replied:
> Errr... my point was not that, exactly. I supose that, since I am a
> pessimist, and have a scientific mind, I know that we will never 
reach
> the single solution. In fact, Science depends on it. Heisenbergs's
> uncertainty principle says that, in any given paradigm, there are
> things that cannot be explained - and that we cannot know, a 
priori,
> what those things are. But never mind - it's close enough to your 
idea:
> in a book series like HP, we will never have all the data - that 
would
> require entire dictionaries of nothing but data, which no-one would
> ever read, but never mind, since they are not going to happen.

To be honest, I'm not really talking about scientific investigation, 
or tricky issues such as Schr?dinger's cat.  My point is, that the 
everyday interpretation of normal reality by most people is that 
there is only one truth of what happens.  Scientists may mutter 
about 'collapsing the wave function', and postmodernists jabber 
about 'constructing reality', but courts go on reaching verdicts on 
the assumption that, though they may be wrong in any given verdict, 
the *idea* that there is a single truth to be approximated by 
investigation is reliable.  No court is going to say both 'guilty' 
and 'not guilty' for the same trial.

Of course, different people may have different interpretations of 
reality, just as they do of literature.  But when they do, they 
usually accept that at least one of them must be wrong.  The whole 
point of all sorts of enquiry about the real world is to narrow down 
the possibilities that could be right.

Literature is, IMO, quite different.  There is no reason why there 
should be a unique interpretation that is consistent with canon.  In 
some cases there may be *no* satisfactory interpretation - we call 
these FLINTs on HPFGU.  In others, there may be more than one.  It 
was here that I felt your discussion of the nature of theory was 
helpful: the idea that there can be different theories which are all 
consistent with canon, but not necessarily with one another.

Where I think we diverge is that I do not believe that the 'right' 
theory will emerge when more 'facts' become available.  It is true 
that some theories may get unlucky and be effectively torpedoed (oh 
dear, I seem to be falling into nautical terminology here), which 
may help their rivals.  Other differences will likely not be 
resolved, and some previously universally accepted theories will 
unexpectedly split into new competing alternatives.

I think the underlying issue is that the existence of data outside 
existing canon is problematic.  What is this data?  Leave aside the 
purists who define that canon = that which is published, and we 
still have huge difficulties.  What guarantee is there that JKR has 
extended her universe and subplots in a consistent manner beyond the 
confines of what we see?  It is like asking an artist to tell us 
what is just outside the frame of their painting.  *We*, the viewers 
may claim that 'science' allows us to project the horizon of a 
seascape beyond the frame, but why should the artist, or anyone else 
for that matter, agree?  The picture is paint on a canvas, not a 
photograph of a scene that can be examined by forensic scientists.

Grey Wolf again:

> (I have to point out that the same thing happens in RL sciences,
> except the purely theorical ones like maths, and even those have
> certain theories that cannot be proved - due to Heisenberg's 
principle
> which I've mentioned above. For example, can any of our resident
> mathematics demonstrate that any even number is sum of two primes? 
No
> - no-one can, for now, and possibly noone will ever be able to, in 
the
> present maths paradigm).

I agree.  However, I think it is the case that the undecidability 
of, say, R/H versus H/H is not like quantum uncertainty, nor like 
G?del's logical undecidability (see note 1), nor like the 
unpredictability of chaotic systems.  It is more like a badly-
devised logic puzzle where there are two answers instead of one.  (I 
don't mean that the HP stories are badly devised - just that they 
contain ambiguity which would be inappropriate in a logic puzzle.)  
The two 'answers', R/H and H/H, can be made to fit the 'clues' that 
are given - canon, but the reason is not some intrinsic limitation 
of logic, it's the ambiguous formulation of the 'clues'.

Me again (David):
> 
> > My question is, if more than one theory is considered 
*possible*, 
> > and exhaustive (and exhausting) argumentation has failed to 
> > eliminate either on logical grounds, is there any way of 
agreeing 
> > which theory is *better*?
> 
> The short answer is: no. 

Ah, but is there a long answer which is different?

> There is no official method to decide what theory is better than
> another one, except by careful statistical studies (i.e. which is 
less
> wrong). Generally, however, the correct theory when several are
> present is the one most people believe in. Which, however, doesn't
> make it right - but it is a democratical approach. There have been
> times in history when two theories have coexisted for a long time
> before one was tuned into more correctness, at which point the 
other
> is normally discarded.

To be honest, I wasn't asking for an 'official' method, though I 
would be delighted to hear of any from the literary experts here.  I 
doubt there is one, though, because the idea of deciding between 
theories by any other means than absolute reader discretion is so 
alien to the way most literary theory, as I understand it, 
approaches text.

No, I am suggesting we should *make one up*.  Invent new theory and 
methodology.  New philosophy.  Why not?  We are in a unique 
situation here.  We have a text with sufficient depth and richness 
to keep conventional literary scholarship busy, while at the same 
time we grapple with the fact that that text is both incomplete and 
will one day be completed.  It seems to me that conventional 
literary theory (OK I'm pretty ignorant here) doesn't cope well with 
the concept or practice of fandom, while fans for the most part lack 
the intellectual tools to succeed in all the things they would like 
to.

I would say that one way to open up the may be to pose the 
question: "To what extent does the Potterverse exist?"

We have several putative answers.

Literary: only in the mind of the (individual) reader;
Intentional: in the intention of the author;
Future: in canon, when complete;
Fanon: in the corpus of canon-consistent material that fans write - 
a special case is the movies;
Fandom: in the collective mind of the readers, expressed through 
what consensus they can find in lists like this one.

(Please forgive me if any of the above labels are confusing or 
misleading - as I say, this is about making things up as we go 
along.)

I would say that all these answers fail to capture something that is 
expressed in the others.  The first isolates the fan.  The second 
denies the reader's imagination.  The third is provisional: at the 
end, you have to map the completed canon into one of the other 
answers.  The fourth gains enormous richness and extensiveness at 
the expense of the distinctiveness of JKR's creation.  The last is 
potentially a tyranny, and may suffer from a lack of content, since 
we seem unable to agree on anything beyond the fact that Harry's 
cousin is called Dudley.

They all have something positive to contribute, too: reader 
interaction with the text; the confidence that the Potterverse is 
*meant* to be consistent; the reminder that there is a yet-active 
author who will shortly constrain our interpretations; the extension 
of the initial base that tradition provides; the fellowship of 
shared experience.

But one answer that I cannot see any way to avoid rejecting is:

Realist: subject to the kinds of investigation we would apply to 
real life.

To those who would say that the question is meaningless, or that the 
answer is whatever you want it to be, I would say: yes, I see your 
point of view, but nevertheless this list beats itself relentlessly 
upon that question like a moth against a lampshade.  Again and again 
we argue about what is 'really' the case.  At any time we can  - or 
we tell ourselves we can - say that the books are just fiction and 
walk away from them.  Yet the passion with which positions are 
argued belies it.  Fans are in the position of the lady in Bath who 
could not stop reading, or of Ginny, hostage to the realism of the 
illusion that is projected on them.  (JKR laughs at her fans, does 
she not, making them captive to a Riddle.)  So to you, I pose the 
question as follows: "To what extent is it possible to give 
intellectual legitimacy to the idea that some proposition 
is 'really' the case in the Potterverse?"

> I think that the method of choosing is neither right nor wrong 
myself
> - I select theories because they make sense in my mind, but others 
use
> other methods. Why people choose or reject theories is not somehing
> that bothers me - they can do so (I do so on ocasions, rejecting
> theories even while defending them). The bottom line is that each
> person likes or not a theory for reasons of its own. However, the 
fact
> that they don't like a theory is not a good reason to believe it is
> wrong  - the only way to prove a theory wrong is to find canon
> against it.

That is true.  However, we are at the stage where we are finding 
that 'proving' or 'disproving' is impossible for many of the 
controversial theories on the list, or at least not worth pursuing.  
What I am trying to do is give you all - or rather, get you all to 
make for yourselves -  the tools to pursue legitimately the oh-so-
human drive to persuade your opponents, and to be persuaded by them, 
without getting bogged down in sterile arguments about proof.  Proof 
is unattainable.  Can we settle for something less that still does 
the job of persuading?

David

Note 1.  Kurt G?del proved in the thirties that in any logical 
system based on the predicate calculus (ie logic as we know it) that 
contains the integers (ie the most basic numerical part of maths) it 
is possible to frame questions the answers to which cannot be 
decided from within the system.   The theorem is generally supposed 
to mean that mathemetics is infinite, since it will always be 
possible to pose questions that can only be answered by extending 
the framework of axioms used.  I doubt its relevance to Hermione's 
ability to decide who she likes.




From pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no  Sat Feb  8 00:19:43 2003
From: pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no (pengolodh_sc <pengolodh_sc@yahoo.no>)
Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 00:19:43 -0000
Subject: quotes and questions
In-Reply-To: <WorldClient-F200302071335.AA35280386@aokp.org>
Message-ID: <b21iev+9pfk@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter, chanteuse thalia chaunacy wrote:
[snip]
> (CoSp58) strawberry-and-peanut-butter ice creams
> 
> [is anyone else relatively revolted by this idea? or am i odd? is
> this a normal flavour in Britain?]
[snip]

You are not odd, I believe, and it sounds like a typical flavour in 
Britain.  After all, the British traditionally like to eat their 
chips (i.e. French fries) seasoned with salt and malt vinegar - and 
if you look at some British names of dishes - such as bubble-and-
squeak, and toad-in-a-hole, and that unmentionable dessert which I 
believe John had the pleasure of sampling last weekend - that only 
reinforces that you are not odd, and that combining peanutbutter and 
strawberries not necessarily is out of character for the British.

It could be worse, of course - here in Norway, smalehove is 
considered a quite acceptable food in large parts of the country, as 
are codfish-tongues (normally fried, but I have heard of at least one 
instance where they were cooked with cabbage - the dinner-guests did 
escape alive and with their sanity reasonable intact, although 
reports were that the tongues were more comparable to fishy chewing-
gum than anything else).

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter, Shaun Hately wrote:

[snip]

> Amusingly this issue has a clear answer. Ketchup is *not* a food in
> the US. Back in 1981, the US Government attempted to claim that it
> was a food - specifically that it was a vegetable. 

[snip]

> That attempt was defeated so ketchup has legal status as a
> condiment - not as a food in its own right.

[snip]

Reminds me of something I heard of a lengthy legal case concerning 
Jaffa Cakes, which are small soft sponge-cookies, with a bit of 
orange-flavoured jelly on top covered by dark chocolate, produced by 
United Biscuits.  To quote BBC:

"...the infamous UK Jaffa Cake case. Biscuits and cakes are 
considered a necessity by UK law and are zero rated. Chocolate 
covered biscuits however are a luxury and subject to VAT at 17.5%. 
McVities and HM Customs & Excise argued over whether the Jaffa Cake 
was a cake (no VAT) or a chocolate biscuit (lots of VAT). The 
argument had to be taken to a Tribunal (kind of like a court) to be 
resolved. In the end McVities baked a 12" Jaffa Cake which convinced 
the Tribunal Chairman of the general cakeiness of the Jaffa Cake."  

See http://www.ubcareers.com/about/jaffa.asp and 
http://www.geocities.com/williamarthurs/jaffa.htm .  

According to the page in The Guardian linked at the second page, the 
outcome of the trial also depended on the fact that Jaffa Cakes 
become hard when they go stale.  Since cakes become hard when they go 
stale, and biscuits become soft when they go stale, Jaffa Cakes were 
ruled by the VAT Tribunal to be legally cakes (while I believe that 
in at least some dialects of the English language (such dialects that 
are not necessarily found on the British Isles themselves, nor the 
same hemisphere), it would be quite linguistically correct - if not 
legally so - to say that HM Customs & Excise is - has gone - 
crackers?).  

Best regards
Christian Stub?




From heidit at netbox.com  Sat Feb  8 02:06:36 2003
From: heidit at netbox.com (Heidi Tandy)
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 22:06:36 -0400
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: quotes and questions
Message-ID: <mailman.30.1576049043.5361.hpfgu-otchatter@archive.hpfgu.org>

chanteuse thalia chaunacy wrote:
[snip]
> (CoSp58) strawberry-and-peanut-butter ice creams
> 
> [is anyone else relatively revolted by this idea? or am i odd? is
> this a normal flavour in Britain?]

Speaking of deserts, and to note the 2nd anniversary of this, the otc list, which was founded because we were having far too much food discussion on the main list, I will describe what I was served for desert at Barton G's tonight:
                                
A carnival-sized pouf of purple cotton candy
3 popcorn balls - one coated in chocolate, one in white chocolate and one in caramel
3 candied apples (lady's apples, which are tiny) with a bit of carmel and nuts at the base

We took home 80 percent of the cotton candy, 2/3 of each popcorn ball and one candied apple

Candy apples have been my sole pregnancy-related craving. 



Heidi Tandy
Follow me to FictionAlley - Harry Potter fanfics of all shapes, sizes and ships - 7 sickles an ounce
http://www.FictionAlley.org 



From urbana at charter.net  Sat Feb  8 04:47:49 2003
From: urbana at charter.net (Anne <urbana@charter.net>)
Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 04:47:49 -0000
Subject: quotes and questions
In-Reply-To: <b21iev+9pfk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b2225l+s406@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "pengolodh_sc 
<pengolodh_sc at y...>" <pengolodh_sc at y...> wrote:
> It could be worse, of course - here in Norway, smalehove is 
> considered a quite acceptable food in large parts of the country, 
as 
> are codfish-tongues (normally fried, but I have heard of at least 
one 
> instance where they were cooked with cabbage - the dinner-guests 
did 
> escape alive and with their sanity reasonable intact, although 
> reports were that the tongues were more comparable to fishy chewing-
> gum than anything else).
> 

And here in southcentral Wisconsin, the Norwegian forbears saddled 
their descendants with "delicacies" known as lutefisk (cod fish 
soaked in lye, rinsed off and then dried, I think) and lefse (a kind 
of Norwegian tortilla made of potato flour(?)). As one young 
Minnesota woman told Garrison Keillor a few years ago, "I used to 
hate lutefisk when I was young, but now I can eat a whole 
tablespoonful" -- which is a tablespoonful more than I'd be willing 
to eat.

Going back to the list of foods Harry likes, I assume that in PS 
(British version vs. American SS), the sausages and mashed potatoes 
are called bangers and mash.

Anne U
(who likes bangers and mash, and Brit-style fried tomatoes, but won't 
go near lutefisk with a 10-foot pole)





From illyana at mindspring.com  Sat Feb  8 05:07:46 2003
From: illyana at mindspring.com (illyana delorean)
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 22:07:46 -0700
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: quotes and questions
In-Reply-To: <b2225l+s406@eGroups.com>
References: <b2225l+s406@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a05200a01ba6a404b5b5e@[10.0.1.11]>

Anne U wrote:
>
>And here in southcentral Wisconsin, the Norwegian forbears saddled
>their descendants with "delicacies" known as lutefisk (cod fish
>soaked in lye, rinsed off and then dried, I think) and lefse (a kind
>of Norwegian tortilla made of potato flour(?)). As one young
>Minnesota woman told Garrison Keillor a few years ago, "I used to
>hate lutefisk when I was young, but now I can eat a whole
>tablespoonful" -- which is a tablespoonful more than I'd be willing
>to eat.

Lutefisk sounds completely disgusting. My only experience with 
lutefisk was watching an episode of "King of the Hill" in which Bobby 
Hill becomes kind of obsessed with a dish of the "food" at some kind 
of church-related get-together. Needless to say, eating so much 
lutefisk makes him very sick!

However, this "lefse" sounds pretty good. I like tortillas, and I 
like potatoes (a lot - the obsession is probably unhealthy!), so I 
think I would probably like potato tortillas!

illyana
-- 
HPGCv1
a22 e+ x+* Rm Ri HP4 S+++ Mo++ HG+/VK++ HaP+/SS+++& FGW++ DM++& VC-- 
GG-- CD+ VK++ SS+++& PT--- AF-- MM++ RL++ O+m FAo F- Sl FHo SfD

visit my livejournal! http://www.livejournal.com/users/illyanadmc



From dradamsapple at yahoo.com  Sat Feb  8 06:21:29 2003
From: dradamsapple at yahoo.com (dradamsapple <dradamsapple@yahoo.com>)
Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 06:21:29 -0000
Subject: quotes and questions
In-Reply-To: <b2225l+s406@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b227l9+4vjc@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Anne <urbana at c...>" 
<urbana at c...> wrote:
> --- 
 
> 
> And here in southcentral Wisconsin, the Norwegian forbears saddled 
> their descendants with "delicacies" known as lutefisk (cod fish 
> soaked in lye, rinsed off and then dried, I think) 

 >snip<
> Anne U
> (who likes bangers and mash, and Brit-style fried tomatoes, but 
won't 
> go near lutefisk with a 10-foot pole)


Actually, Anne U,

lutefisk sort of reminds me of the italian dish "Baccala";
It's made with a dried (almost petrified?)salted cod fish that has 
been soaked in water for two or three days to get all the salt out.  
Then you make a white sauce, with spices and such, pour it over the 
fish and bake.  It's kind of like a casserole, only the only thing in 
it fish.  It's yummy!  But only the way my mother makes it (actually, 
I never have had it anywhere else but my mother's house.)
Oh, and speaking of weird food items, while on my honeymoon in Italy 
(many moons ago), we were served a tray with different appetizers on 
it and low and behold, it had pickled tongue on the it!
(eeewwww!!!)  My husband was the only one brave enough at our table 
to try it!  I think he said it tasted like a pickled deli meat. I 
just couldn't stand the looks of it! 8-(

Anna  . . .(who much rather have a bowl of popcorn right now!)





From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Sat Feb  8 06:51:03 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve <bboy_mn@yahoo.com>)
Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 06:51:03 -0000
Subject: Lutefisk & Lefse & Norwegians
In-Reply-To: <a05200a01ba6a404b5b5e@[10.0.1.11]>
Message-ID: <b229cn+ummq@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, illyana delorean
<illyana at m...> wrote:
> Anne U wrote:
> >
> >And here in southcentral Wisconsin, the Norwegian forbears saddled
> >their descendants with "delicacies" known as lutefisk (cod fish
> >soaked in lye, rinsed off and then dried, I think) and lefse (a 
> >kind of Norwegian tortilla made of potato flour(?)). 
> 
> Lutefisk sounds completely disgusting. My only experience with 
> lutefisk was watching an episode of "King of the Hill" in which
> Bobby Hill becomes kind of obsessed with a dish of the "food" at 
> some kind  of church-related get-together. Needless to say, eating
> so much lutefisk makes him very sick!
> 
> However, this "lefse" sounds pretty good. I like tortillas, and I 
> like potatoes (a lot - the obsession is probably unhealthy!), so I 
> think I would probably like potato tortillas!
> 
> illyana

bboy_mn:
Ahhh yes, the great Minnasota tradition, the annual Lutefisk supper at
the local church; at EVERY local church, thousands of them.

Notice that the Lutefisk is orginally soaked or 'pickled' in LYE which
makes is a deadly poison if not prepared correctly. Basically, you
just have to soak and rinse it several times in water to make sure all
the lye is rinsed out. Understand when I say lye, I mean the same
stuff they make drain unclogger out of.

For those of you who are visually inclined; Lutefisk is a large blob
of pearlly greyish white gelatinous mass that is really quite
disgusting to look at. I personally have never had the guts to taste
any. It's usually served with big bowls of melted butter which you dip
it in to presumably mask the disgusting taste.

I've been told that people in Norway don't really eat that much
Lutefisk. It's sort of a last resort food, they eat when everything
else runs out. In the beginning it was probably the only Norwegian
food that could survive the journey across the Atlantic, and that's
how it became a tradition over here. I had a old guy tell me that when
he was young and living in Norway, his mother used to use Lutefisk as
a punishment; "Junior, you better be good or I'll make you eat some
Lutefisk". Very effective I presume.

Now Lefse is like a Norwegian art form. You take mashed potatoes add
flour and butter then squeeze it all through a ricer which is a
kitchen tool that squeezes 'whatever' through small holes. Then you
roll it out very thin like a soft tortillas. Now comes the art form,
you cook it over a special grill/griddle like a pancake until it has
dark brown to black spots on  both sides. True artist always use a
special wooden Lefse knife-like tool to turn the Lefse over on the
grill/griddle.

Once cool, although hot isn't bad, you smear it liberally with butter
and pour lots of sugar on it, then fold it in half, roll it up, and
eat it. It's actually OK, a little bland though. I've tried to
convince people that you can put anything on a lefse; jam, jelly,
peanut butter, whatever, and you would think that I was speaking
sacrilege. People absolutely refuse to even consider anything but
butter and sugar. They look at me like I'm crazy.

So ends out little leason in Minnesota/Norwegian traditional foods.

Actually, I'll end with a Norwegian joke. Most of you won't get it,
but to a Scandinavian, this is hysterical.

Joke:
"Did you hear about the Norwegian who loved his wife so much that he
almost told her."

Seriously, that's funny joke to a Norwegian.

Just a few thoughts.

bboy_mn





From annemehr at yahoo.com  Sat Feb  8 07:48:11 2003
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr <annemehr@yahoo.com>)
Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 07:48:11 -0000
Subject: quotes and questions
In-Reply-To: <b21iev+9pfk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b22cnr+6ldn@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "pengolodh_sc 
<pengolodh_sc at y...>" <pengolodh_sc at y...> wrote:

<snip>

>To quote BBC:
> 
> "...the infamous UK Jaffa Cake case. Biscuits and cakes are 
> considered a necessity by UK law and are zero rated. Chocolate 
> covered biscuits however are a luxury and subject to VAT at 17.5%. 

WHAT?!!!

Everyone should *know* that chocolate is an essential nutrient!
This law was obviously written by a man!

Annemehr
getting my daily requirement without fail...




From belleps at october.com  Sat Feb  8 08:05:39 2003
From: belleps at october.com (Beth)
Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 02:05:39 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Earliest Memories of the World
  Outside 
In-Reply-To: <1044526145.1794.41538.m3@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20030208015116.009ffa30@pop.cox-internet.com>

Elkins:
 >>I always wondered this myself -- why I have absolutely no memories
of the Vietnam War.  Finally I thought to ask my parents about it.
Turns out that until the war was over, they made it their practice
never to turn on the television until after I'd gone to bed.  They'd
only watch the 11:00 news.  They didn't want to risk my seeing
footage of people being shot, or of ear necklaces, or of anything
horrid and gruesome like that.

bel:
I have those memories. I remember not knowing until I was about 12 years 
old that you could have a newscast without combat footage and casualty counts.

I still haven't decided if it was a good thing for me to see those things 
or not. It definitely makes me conscious of exactly what "going to war" can 
mean, both to individual lives and on a massive scale. I can see how, for 
some people, it could create a lack of sensitivity to violence, but I don't 
believe that it did that to me (in fact, I can't watch horror films), and I 
don't believe it does it in most cases.

On another note, I have two very strong early memories, both from TV. I 
grew up in Dallas and was 5 when President Kennedy was killed. I was home 
from school, and saw the shooting on TV. Mom and Dad were at work, but 
Grandma was home. As luck would have it, she wasn't watching because the 
washer had just overflowed in the kitchen and she was mopping. I ran in and 
told her that the President had just been shot, and almost got sent to my 
room for lying. I finally convinced her to turn on the radio so she would 
believe me.

And I remember the Beatles' first appearance on the Ed Sullivan show. I'm 
not sure whether it's because I liked the music, or because when they first 
started to play they surprised me so much that I dumped a plate of cottage 
cheese upside down on my mother's braided rug. She was not happy. <grin>

bel




From s_ings at yahoo.com  Sat Feb  8 16:32:27 2003
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 11:32:27 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: quotes and questions
In-Reply-To: <b22cnr+6ldn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20030208163227.27955.qmail@web41102.mail.yahoo.com>

 --- "annemehr <annemehr at yahoo.com>"
<annemehr at yahoo.com> wrote: > WHAT?!!!
> 
> Everyone should *know* that chocolate is an
> essential nutrient!
> This law was obviously written by a man!
> 
> Annemehr
> getting my daily requirement without fail...

My husband goes one further and says that chocolate is
a food group and must be consumed daily. I have no
problems with his assessment at all! It is a sad day
here when the house is "chocolate-deficient", as Andy
calls it and it generally prompts a quick trip to the
closest store to remedy the situation. :)

Sheryll

=====
"We need to be united and strong. We'll have losses and scares, sure. And you'll be there for each other, helping each other through the bad times."
 blpurdom - Harry Potter and the Psychic Serpent, Chapter 26

______________________________________________________________________ 
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca



From Ali at zymurgy.org  Sat Feb  8 17:11:25 2003
From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali <Ali@zymurgy.org>)
Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 17:11:25 -0000
Subject: quotes and questions
In-Reply-To: <b21iev+9pfk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b23dnt+i5go@eGroups.com>

 --- In HPFGU-OTChatter, chanteuse thalia chaunacy wrote:

 (CoSp58) strawberry-and-peanut-butter ice creams
 
 [is anyone else relatively revolted by this idea? or am i odd? is
 this a normal flavour in Britain?]
 [snip]

Pengolodh_sc replied:-
 
<< You are not odd, I believe, and it sounds like a typical flavour 
in  Britain.  After all, the British traditionally like to eat their 
 chips (i.e. French fries) seasoned with salt and malt vinegar - and 
 if you look at some British names of dishes - such as bubble-and-
 squeak, and toad-in-a-hole, and that unmentionable dessert which I 
 believe John had the pleasure of sampling last weekend - that only 
 reinforces that you are not odd, and that combining peanutbutter and 
strawberries not necessarily is out of character for the British.>>

I say:-

As a Brit, I also think it's odd to have strawberry and peanut butter 
ice cream. It doesn't sound "typically British" at all to me. What it 
does sound like though is kids having their 2 favourite scopes of ice 
cream, 1 strawberry and 1 peanut butter - perhaps wizard children can 
get this rolled into one. Funnily enough, it reminded me of spreads 
combining peanut butter and jam which are marketed as American in 
Britain.

Ali

(Who doesn't think it's odd to have chips covered in salt and 
vinegar, but does think it strange that some people like Mars bars 
deep fried in batter).
 





From pinguthegreek at ukf.net  Sat Feb  8 16:52:04 2003
From: pinguthegreek at ukf.net (Michelle Apostolides)
Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 16:52:04 +0000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: quotes and questions
In-Reply-To: <20030208163227.27955.qmail@web41102.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <b22cnr+6ldn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20030208165019.00aaeec0@mail.ukf.net>


>
>My husband goes one further and says that chocolate is
>a food group and must be consumed daily. I have no
>problems with his assessment at all! It is a sad day
>here when the house is "chocolate-deficient", as Andy
>calls it and it generally prompts a quick trip to the
>closest store to remedy the situation. :)

Chocolate is definitely a food group. Cannot live without it at all...

#sighs#

Michelle 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no  Sat Feb  8 17:43:12 2003
From: pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no (pengolodh_sc <pengolodh_sc@yahoo.no>)
Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 17:43:12 -0000
Subject: Stockfish and fishtongues and lefse, oh my!
Message-ID: <b23fjh+plsv@eGroups.com>

So people have an interest in lutefisk and lefse?

Brace yourselves!

Lutefisk is made from dried (*not* salted) codfish called stockfish.  
Italian bacalao is also made of such stockfish.  Spanish and 
Portuguese bacalao is made of dried and salted fish called klipfish.  
I'll explain a bit more in detail.  

Stockfish
Every year, in the time from February to April, large quantities of 
Arctic cod will find themselves in the Vestfjord, South of the 
Lofoten archipelago, with a single purpose:  copulation.  This, of 
course, means that a lot of fishermen come to Lofoten at this time 
too, and the Lofoten Fisheries is a big event, and large quantities 
of codfish are landed.

Of course, all that codfish needs to be preserved some way - fresh 
fish does not last for long, unless it is frozen, or salted, or 
otherwise treated.  These days, quite a lot of the codfish is frozen 
for the Norwegian market, and some is sold fresh, but most of it is 
still dried the old way.

Lofoten is blessed with a climate that is perfect for outdoors drying 
of codfish.  They have tried to replicate the method at Iceland and 
in Finnmark, but the results are nowhere near as good.  The method is 
quite simple - you take the cod (after having bled it, and removed 
head and guts) and hang it outdoors for a few months, until early 
summer, when it is dried.  One hangs stockfish on something we call a 
fiskehjell, and there are generally two designs seen - one is the 
cathedral-like type, as seen at 
http://home.no.net/oddbakk1/andoy/bleik/024.html (the vertical 
distance between the horisontal stocks is round 3-4 feet), the other 
is lower and flatter, as can be seen at 
http://web.media.mit.edu/~solan/norway/pages/arctic/DSC00024.JPG (the 
latter image being part of a Canadian student's entertaining tale of 
his escapades in Northern Norway while on an IAESTE summerjob in 
Troms? - see it at http://web.media.mit.edu/~solan/norway/ ).  The 
horisontal wooden posts from which the stockfish is hung,a re called 
stocks, hence the name stockfish.  

There are two qualities of stock-fish: r?skj?r (raw-cut) and rundfisk 
(round-fish).  R?skj?r refers to fish that, after having head and 
guts removed and while still raw, is split in two along the length of 
its spine, *almost* all the way up to the tail, where the two parts 
are left attached to eachother.  You then simply hang this over the 
stocks by the tail.  Round-fish refers to fish that has had head and 
guts removed (which would qualify it for a seat in Parliament), but 
has not been split - the fish are then tied together two and two with 
a piece of string around the tails, before being hung up to dry (as 
seen in 
http://www.baccalaallavicentina.com/inglese/foto_lofoten/foto1.html 
(click on the arrow pointing right for more photos), part of 
http://www.baccalaallavicentina.com/inglese/isole_lofoten_centro.htm )
.  

Stockfish will be collected from the hjells no later than the middle 
of June; it is important to get it in before the weather gets too 
warm, and flies and other insects start laying eggs in it.  The 
stockfish is kept safe from seagull by deploying a pole with plastic 
falgs, streamers, emtpy plastic-bags or other things which flutter 
and make a lot of noise.  

Stockfish is sorted into three primary qualities - Prima, Sekunda, 
and Afrika - and beyond that there are multitudes of type-variations, 
depending on size, shape, aroma, and so on.  90% of the stockfish is 
exported, the majority going to Italy, and stockfish contitutes the 
largest Norwegian export after crude-oil.  Of the stockfish not 
exported to Italy, most is exported to Nigeria, this normally being 
the cheap stockfish of the lower qualities.

Stockfish can be used for food in a number of ways.  One way is as a 
snack, simply tearing off small bits, and snacking oon it, as you 
would snack on crisps or pretzels - this is supposed to be good with 
beer, though I do not drink beer, and I'm not that crazy about 
straight stockfish either, so I wouldn't know.  Soaking the stockfish 
in water for a while (I think two days) will return it to a state not 
far from that of fresh fish, and it can then be cooked as regular 
fish.  It can also be used to make bacalao casserole, which is 
popular in Italy.  

Finally, there is lutefisk.  To make it into lutefisk, you start by 
soaking it in water, and then you immerse it in lye (we call it "to 
lye the fish"), and then you rinse the lye out (you "water out the 
fish").  Depending on how hard you lye and water out the fish, it 
will have different looks - hard-lyed fish cannot be boiled in water 
(it dissolves), but must be baked in an oven, and resembles nothing 
so much as a pale yellow gelatinous blob.  More lightly lyed lutefisk 
will be more recognisable as fish, with colours ranging from white 
with only a hint of yellow (almost pearly), to a more pale yellowish 
hue.  Traditionally, lutefisk is to be served with potatoes, bacon, 
creamed green peas, mustard, and often bechamel sauce.  In my family, 
that is not how we serve it - my father didn't like those sides much 
when he was a kid, so his mother made it with proper mashed potatoes 
(and I mean *proper* - boiling potatoes, then adding butter and 
cream, and mashing by hand, with the result still tasting like real 
potatoes, and with small whole pieces of potatoes - not like that 
puree-like stuff most reastaurants will squirt out on your plate) - 
so that's how we have it.

Before being processed to stockfish, guts and heads are removed.  The 
guts are not usable, and current regulations require that the guts 
are disposed of at approved disposal-sites to prevent pollution 
(these regualtions haveing been introduced by the EU through the EEA-
agreement between EU and EFTA, which generally obliges the EFTA 
nations to honour EU directives).  This is a slight problem, as, 
during the past 2-3 millennia, the seagulls have come to rely on the 
guts thrown out of the fishing-boats by the fishermen, so the 
seagulls are now starving - and the seagulls effectively have prevent 
these fishguts from presenting any actual pollution in all those 
thousands of years.  The direct practical effect this has on the 
local population is that when you barbecue, you need to bring an 
object the general size and shape of a rifle, to keep the seagulls 
from diving down and snatching food right off the barbecue.

The heads, unlike the guts, can be used.  I know there are parts in 
Norway where boiled (fresh) codfish-head is considered a delicacy 
worthy the Christmas Eve dinner-table.  Thankfully I was not brought 
up in such a part of Norway.  Codfish-heads in general are dried.  
The heads are tied together in a bundle with string, after the 
tongues have been cut out (to leave a hole so the string can be 
threaded through), and the particular business-arrangement 
surrounding this is a tale of its own (see below).  

When the codfish-heads are good and dry (and they are, obviously, 
less carefully monitored than the stockfish), they can be used in a 
number of ways.  Grounding it up to make fishflour is one 
possibility - this powder (with a pungent odour) can be used as 
fertiliser, to feed livestock or fish in fishfarms, or it can be used 
as an additive (used sparingly!) in regular food.  But dried codfish-
heads are also exported whole, primarily to Africa (Nigeria being a 
big taker), where they are used to cook soup.

 * * *

Beyond stockfish, there is klipfish.  Klip-fish derives it name from 
the verb "klippe", which refers to opening the fish (i.e., after you 
remove the head and guts, you cut the fish open along the underside 
so you can spread it out open).  Klipfish is then salted and dried, 
and then stored, going through a form of curing while being stored.  
Klipfish when finished looks like roughly triangular pieces of stiff 
off-white parchment.  Klipfish is exported in large quantities to 
Spain, Portugal, Brazil, Italy and France,a s well as amny other 
countries.  The Spanish variant of bacalao uses klipfish rather than 
stockfish.  See images at http://www.lofoten-
adventure.com/english/klipfish.htm .

 * * *

Essentially, the whole business of codfish-tongues could be seen as a 
form of childlabour, but that is really a bit inaccurate.  What 
happens is that kid (below the age of confirmation - i.e. less than 
15 years old) will take on the tying together of the codfish-heads, 
but in return they get the right to cut the tongues out, and they get 
ownership of the tongues.  They then package the tongues in plastic 
bags in quantities of 1 kg (2.2lbs), and sell it at a price of NOK25 
(ca. US$3) per kg.  Thrifty kids have been known to make as much as 
NOK 70,000 (US$9,000) this way, in the process of a couple of 
months.  The kids essentially negotiate a business-agreement with the 
owners fo the fishing-boats, rendering service, and being paid in the 
right to the tongues and the income therefrom.  Traditionally, kids 
are not allowed to do this after they have reached the age of 
confirmation (going through confirmation being seen as a sign one is 
a grown-up), though lately, pensioners that are ahrd of money have 
been seen moving into tongue-cutting - but that is frowned upon by 
most people, and seen as susurping something that really is the kids' 
privilege.  Not all kids do it (I didn't), and there is nothing 
compulsory about it.  This is most common in Lofoten, but I believe 
you can find it elsewhere along the coast of Northern Norway as well.

The normal mdoe of preparing codfish-tongues is to fry them, and 
serve them with potatoes and normally squeeze some lemon over them, 
but some prefer a dab of melting butter.  I have, however, been told 
of one alternative way of serving them, to which Tom, a friend of 
mine, was subjected.  To understand this, I first must tell of 
f?rik?l.  F?rik?l essentially is mutton-chops, cooked for a few hours 
with cabbage and seasonings (you put water in a casserole, and then 
add layers of cabbage-leaves and mutton-chops, and add whole black 
pepper, tomato, slices of bell-pepper, etc., and cook it - third time 
recooked has the best taste, so in this case leftovers are actually 
better than the original).  

Tom and his parents were having dinner at his grandmother's, as 
they'd do every Tuesday, and he thought she was serving f?rik?l (it 
certainly looked like it), and as he loves f?rik?l, he piled it on 
his plate.  That was when he, to his great dismay, realised that it 
was not mutton that was intermingled with the cabbage on his plate - 
it was codfish-tongues!  He braved the meal however - you do not 
lightly push away the dinner-plate when your grandmother cooked the 
dinner, after all - particularly not when it was you yourself who 
piled the food high on the plate.  According to Tom the tongues were 
comparable to chewed-out chewing-gum, with a micture of fish- and 
cabbage-flavour.

 * * *

Lefse, in Norway, normally does not involve potatoes these days.  
Lefse is a large collective term, for a number of unleavened normally 
soft cake- and bread-equivalents, made with wheat, barley, oat, or 
potatoes.  Today, potato-lefse is primarily known as lompe in Norway, 
and is most commonly used to wrap a hotdog instead of a bun, though 
it can on occasion be seen eaten as a regular lefse.  Most lefse seen 
in Norway today is wheat-based, however, and can be found in 
*countless* varieties, and are used as cakes.  There are those that 
will eat lefse to certain types of dinner, though, including, but not 
limited to, lutefisk.  I am not certain just what types of lefse is 
used here, and I won't treat this in much detail.  Indeed I suspect 
the everyday-lefse as a staple of everyday diet is more known (though 
as a food for festive events) among US descendants of Norwegian 
emigrants than in Norway these days.

Lefse used as cake, has a number of common themes.  Each lefse is 
made from a small piece of dough, rolled with a rollingpin until it 
is generally round, and rather thin, and then lightly baked on a 
griddle.  M?rlefse is an exception to this, btw.  It is then spread 
with butter, sugar, and cinnamon (either by spreading the butter, and 
sprinkling sugar and cinnamon over, or by mixing butter, sugar and 
cinnamon, and spreading the mixture), and is then folded together, 
just how (and if - there are again exceptions) depending on the type 
of lefse.

Regional variations include (and this is a very short list of only 
the very basics) Nordlands-lefse, which is pale, almost white, 
creamy, and positively delicious; m?rlefse, which is rather thick and 
baked in a different way, and is rather filling; blanklefse, where 
one side of the lefse has been treated with a sourmilk-based mixture 
before baking causing it to be shiny - the filling is not applied 
until shortly before serving; krinalefse (aslo called kling), where, 
during baking, a batter is applied to one side and a decorative 
pattern made in it with a fork, the pattern setting during baking, 
and being folded so the pattern is on the outside; Vestlands-lefse, 
which is thicker and less delicate than many other types of lefse, 
and is often rolled up rather than folded; and straightforward 
everyday wheat-lefse of the sort that can be found in most grocery-
ships, baked relatively small, only folded once, and cut in triangles.




From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Sat Feb  8 19:52:54 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve <bboy_mn@yahoo.com>)
Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 19:52:54 -0000
Subject: Stockfish and fishtongues and lefse, oh my!
In-Reply-To: <b23fjh+plsv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b23n6m+nfg2@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "pengolodh_sc
<pengolodh_sc at y...>" <pengolodh_sc at y...> wrote:
> So people have an interest in lutefisk and lefse?
> 
> Brace yourselves!
> 

Thanks for the information. I sent a copy to all my Norwegian/American
relatives.

Steve/bboy_mn




From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Sat Feb  8 20:11:09 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve <bboy_mn@yahoo.com>)
Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 20:11:09 -0000
Subject: quotes and questions
In-Reply-To: <b23dnt+i5go@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b23o8t+3j43@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Ali <Ali at z...>" <Ali at z...> wrote:
>  --- In HPFGU-OTChatter, chanteuse thalia chaunacy wrote:
> 
>  (CoSp58) strawberry-and-peanut-butter ice creams
>  
>  [is anyone else relatively revolted by this idea? or am i odd? is
>  this a normal flavour in Britain?]
>  [snip]
> 
> Pengolodh_sc replied:-
>  
> << You are not odd, I believe, and it sounds like a typical flavour 
> in  Britain.  After all, the British traditionally like to eat their 
>  chips (i.e. French fries) seasoned with salt and malt vinegar - ...
> - that only  reinforces that ... combining peanutbutter and 
> strawberries not necessarily is out of character for the British.>>
> 
> I say:-
> 
> As a Brit, I also think it's odd to have strawberry and peanut 
> butter  ice cream. It doesn't sound "typically British" at all 
> to me. What it does sound like though is kids having their 2 
> favourite scopes of ice cream, 1 strawberry and 1 peanut butter - 
> perhaps wizard children can get this rolled into one. Funnily 
> enough, it reminded me of spreads combining peanut butter and jam 
> which are marketed as American in Britain.
> 
> Ali

bboy_mn:
Well the peanut Butter and Jam reference above seems to say it all. I
know strawberry jam is popular in UK and is usually served with 'cream
tea' (or so I've heard). And I have to assume you have peanut butter,
which would make me assume that most kids eat BPJ's; Peanut Butter and
 Strawberry Jam sandwiches, or BPJT's Peanut Butter and Strawberry Jam
on Toast. 

So if peanut butter and strawberry work there, they should work
anywhere. Makes sense to me. I think PB-SJ ice cream sounds good.
Although, not as good as the Peanut Butter ice cream you get from
Schwan's.

"Chunky Chocolate Peanut Butter Binge Premium Plus"
<http://www.schwans.com/shop/frShop.aspx?c1=1578&con=/shop/productDetails.aspx&prd=51742>

Creamy peanut butter-flavored ice cream with peanuts,
chocolate-covered peanuts, peanut butter cookie dough, chocolate
flakes, and a chocolate butter fudge swirl.

...mmmmmm.... cookie dough .....mmmmmm.... chocolate butter fudge
swirl ...

What I thought might be a good flavor and included it in my HP Story
"Respect" where the Dursley's (belive it or not) end up at Fortescue's
Ice Cream Shop. (It's believable in the story)

Deep Fried Marshmallow Ice Cream - .....mmmmmm.....
In general Marshmallow ice cream would suck, but think about it being
dip into a boiling vat of hot oil and deep fried just enough to
carmelize the outside but not melt the ice cream. The ice cream would
still suck, but how good would that carmel coating be? YIKES!

Just a thought.

bboy_mn






From illyana at mindspring.com  Sat Feb  8 20:38:28 2003
From: illyana at mindspring.com (illyana delorean)
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 13:38:28 -0700
Subject: ice cream (was: quotes and questions)
In-Reply-To: <b23o8t+3j43@eGroups.com>
References: <b23o8t+3j43@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a05200a00ba6b198ef963@[10.0.1.11]>

bboy_mn wrote:
>
>Deep Fried Marshmallow Ice Cream - .....mmmmmm.....
>In general Marshmallow ice cream would suck, but think about it being
>dip into a boiling vat of hot oil and deep fried just enough to
>carmelize the outside but not melt the ice cream. The ice cream would
>still suck, but how good would that carmel coating be? YIKES!
>

Have you ever had mexican-style fried ice cream? It's great - the ice 
cream is rolled in corn flakes and frozen. Then, they flash-fry it so 
the corn flakes are crispy, but the ice cream stays nice and cold. 
They then roll it in honey or some other sweet substance. it's soooo 
good! too bad every time I go to a mexican restaurant, I eat too much 
food and am too full to want any dessert.

illyana
-- 
HPGCv1
a22 e+ x+* Rm Ri HP4 S+++ Mo++ HG+/VK++ HaP+/SS+++& FGW++ DM++& VC-- 
GG-- CD+ VK++ SS+++& PT--- AF-- MM++ RL++ O+m FAo F- Sl FHo SfD

visit my livejournal! http://www.livejournal.com/users/illyanadmc



From aaoconnor2002 at yahoo.com  Sat Feb  8 20:33:46 2003
From: aaoconnor2002 at yahoo.com (aaoconnor2002 <aaoconnor2002@yahoo.com>)
Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 20:33:46 -0000
Subject: quotes and questions
In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20030208165019.00aaeec0@mail.ukf.net>
Message-ID: <b23pja+dtr4@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Michelle Apostolides 
<pinguthegreek at u...> wrote:
> 
> >
> >My husband goes one further and says that chocolate is
> >a food group and must be consumed daily. I have no
> >problems with his assessment at all! It is a sad day
> >here when the house is "chocolate-deficient", as Andy
> >calls it and it generally prompts a quick trip to the
> >closest store to remedy the situation. :)
> 
> Chocolate is definitely a food group. Cannot live without it at 
all...
> 
> #sighs#
> 
> Michelle 
> 

Since chocolate is the best remedy for contact with a dementor I am 
hoping for the day when it will be declared medicinal so my medical 
insurance will cover it.

Audrey




From melclaros at yahoo.com  Sat Feb  8 22:21:18 2003
From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros <melclaros@yahoo.com>)
Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 22:21:18 -0000
Subject: quotes and questions
In-Reply-To: <b21iev+9pfk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b23vsu+57ju@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "pengolodh_sc 
<pengolodh_sc at y...>" <pengolodh_sc at y...> wrote:
"...the infamous UK Jaffa Cake case. Biscuits and cakes are 
considered a necessity by UK law and are zero rated. Chocolate 
covered biscuits however are a luxury and subject to VAT at 17.5%. 
McVities and HM Customs & Excise argued over whether the Jaffa Cake 
was a cake (no VAT) or a chocolate biscuit (lots of VAT). The 
argument had to be taken to a Tribunal (kind of like a court) to be 
resolved. In the end McVities baked a 12" Jaffa Cake which convinced 
the Tribunal Chairman of the general cakeiness of the Jaffa Cake." 
According to the page in The Guardian linked at the second page, the 
outcome of the trial also depended on the fact that Jaffa Cakes 
become hard when they go stale. Since cakes become hard when they go 
stale, and biscuits become soft when they go stale, Jaffa Cakes were 
ruled by the VAT Tribunal to be legally cakes (while I believe that 
in at least some dialects of the English language (such dialects that 
are not necessarily found on the British Isles themselves, nor the 
same hemisphere), it would be quite linguistically correct - if not 
legally so - to say that HM Customs & Excise is - has gone - 
crackers?). 


LOL! This sounds exactly like something from the Ministry of Magic! 
Remember the Cauldron Bottoms report! And we yanks wonder where JKR 
gets these wacky ideas from!


Of course, the Reagan administration's Ketchup blunder is a good on 
too, but nothing like this *Case of the Jaffa Cakes*!

Melpomene






From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Feb  8 22:55:56 2003
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston) <catlady@wicca.net>)
Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 22:55:56 -0000
Subject: Edward Eager/Cod-Stockfish/Tongue/Child-sized Cars/Norwegian Joke/Ketchup
Message-ID: <b241tt+uhpk@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, rvotaw at i... wrote:
> I was looking through my Arrow Scholastic March order form, and 
> came across these books.  The set is called Edward Eager's Magic 
> Tales.  The individual titles are:
> 
> Half Magic
> Magic by the Lake
> The Time Garden
> The Well-Wishers
> Magic or Not?
> Knight's Castle
> Seven-Day Magic
> 
> The Scholastic form *says* they're great for Harry Potter fans, but
> of course they'll say anything to sell books.  Just wondering if 
> anyone has actually read them.
> 
(another post)
> Thanks for all the input, the set of 7 is in my Scholastic book 
> order for $13, so I'll get them.

I read and *adored* the Edward Eager books when I was that age, so 
a couple of years ago, when Harry Potter brought Edward Eager back 
into print, I bought HALF MAGIC as a winter holiday present for my 
god(dess)daughter, and of couse re-read it myself before giftwrapping 
it, and still loved it. I would have bought her the whole set but the 
prices were absurd -- Richelle, I wish someone offered ME the whole 
set for $13; the one I bought for Colleen was $13 by itself!

Those who love Edward Eager books should also read the E. Nesbitt 
books (which libraries catalog as E. Bland, her married name) which 
are loved and mentioned by Edward Eager characters. The Eager books 
are set in USA and written in the 1950s and therefore didn't seem 
particularly alien to my own 1960s California childhood, but the 
"Bland" books are set in Britain and were written around 1900 and 
therefore had the pleasant sense of encountering a new "place" that 
so many Americans love in HP.

CHRISTIAN,I *loved* your essay on stockfish, klipfish, et alia!

EVERYBODY SHOULD READ:
Cod: A Biography of the Fish That Changed the World 

I am so serious about this that I even looked it up on amazon for you
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/102-5595089-23129
12

Never mind how much you learn there about bacalao recipes and codfish 
biology and the first Codfish War off Iceland in 1600-something 
between Britain and the Hanseatic League, it is just plain enjoyable. 
And has many funny parts. Okay, here is some trivia from the 
informative aspect: the Hanseatic League merchants in Britain were 
called Easterlings (on the theory that Germany is to the East) which 
was shortened to Sterling. The high regard in which the Hanseatic 
merchants were held for a long time is why "sterling" came to mean 
"Genuine, pure; of excellent quality; conforming to the highest 
standard; of full value; as, a work of  sterling merit; a man of 
sterling good sense" which in turn is why British money named 
itself "sterling". (The quote is from Websters via my beloved 
www.dictionary.com).

Anna Adams Apple wrote:

<< we were served a tray with different appetizers on it and low and 
behold, it had pickled tongue on the it! (eeewwww!!!) My husband was 
the only one brave enough at our table to try it! I think he said it 
tasted like a pickled deli meat. I just couldn't stand the looks of 
it! 8-( >>

Tongue sandwiches (I think it's roast tongue) were popular in New York 
City when I lived there, so the big roasted tongue with the bumps on 
it (and the sliced off parts missing) would be there at the deli 
counter along with the beef roast and ham and turkey and different 
cheeses. I found that to me, tongue tastes like brisket but chewing it 
is FAR TOO LABOURIOUS.

Amy Z wrote:

<< I also remember being absolutely certain that the child-size cars 
you could buy from Sears Roebuck had an actual engine in them. >>

Eileen lucky_kari replied:

<< Wait a second, they don't? >>?

Tim says they do now.

Eileen, your list of childhood misunderstandings was LMAO funny. I 
was laughing so loud that Tim came in from the other room to ask why. 
I couldn't stop laughing long enough to read it to him, so he had to 
read it himself.

Steve bboy_mn wrote:

<< Joke:
"Did you hear about the Norwegian who loved his wife so much that he
almost told her."
Seriously, that's funny joke to a Norwegian. >>

I have been told that (changing "Norwegian" to "bloke") to English 
people, that joke is so true that, rather than finding it at all 
funny, they are deeply touched to think of such intense love.

Lee and Barry sometimes make ketchup from a recipe from a Kenneth 
Roberts book. My vague recollection is that they make 3 gallons of 
ketchup from 300-odd tomatoes which has to be stirred at JUST below 
boiling for three days (so they urge all their friends to come over 
for a shift of standing in the kitchen, slowly stirring while reading 
or something). The point is that REAL ketchup, like they make, 
contains all the nutrients (and calories) of cooked tomatoes despite 
being consumed in condiment-sized portions. 




From ression at hotmail.com  Sat Feb  8 23:30:30 2003
From: ression at hotmail.com (ER <ression@hotmail.com>)
Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 23:30:30 -0000
Subject: Earliest Memories of the World Outside
In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20030208015116.009ffa30@pop.cox-internet.com>
Message-ID: <b243um+cf1q@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Beth <belleps at o...> wrote:
> Elkins:
>  >>I always wondered this myself -- why I have absolutely no 
memories
> of the Vietnam War.  

My earliest encounter with the Vietnam war was when my parents 
wouldn't let me stay up to watch a program on Communist guerrillas. 
Having just got back from a visit to a zoo, I'd decided that large 
hairy primates were cool and I was most annoyed at being packed off 
to bed.




From ression at hotmail.com  Sat Feb  8 23:32:31 2003
From: ression at hotmail.com (ER <ression@hotmail.com>)
Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 23:32:31 -0000
Subject: Reasoning about the Potterverse
In-Reply-To: <b21fqv+efs1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b2442f+do93@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "David <dfrankiswork at n...>" 
<dfrankiswork at n...> wrote:
> 
> Note 1.  Kurt G?del proved in the thirties that in any logical 
> system based on the predicate calculus (ie logic as we know it) 
that 
> contains the integers (ie the most basic numerical part of maths) 
it 
> is possible to frame questions the answers to which cannot be 
> decided from within the system.   The theorem is generally supposed 
> to mean that mathemetics is infinite, since it will always be 
> possible to pose questions that can only be answered by extending 
> the framework of axioms used.  I doubt its relevance to Hermione's 
> ability to decide who she likes.


Does this mean that one can answer any question in mathematics simply 
by dreaming up new axioms? I'm assuming the axioms (=posh word for 
assumption?) are "non-trivial", i.e. they don't simply echo that 
which you wish to prove.

I too doubt the relevance of Godel's theory to Hermione's choice of 
friends, though I suppose we could fall into a discussion about free-
will here :) Shippers may look away now ...








From ression at hotmail.com  Sat Feb  8 23:36:05 2003
From: ression at hotmail.com (ER <ression@hotmail.com>)
Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 23:36:05 -0000
Subject: REPOST: Re: Legal Scenario: Slytherin!Rowling vs. the Fanfic Author
In-Reply-To: <b1umsr+52of@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b24495+2nn3@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "heiditandy <heidit at n...>" 
<heidit at n...> wrote:
> 
> Accordingly, IMNLALO (in my "no legal advice!" opinion), Neville 
> should actually sue Rowling over this and make some great caselaw. 
> And reliance on 17 USC 103(b) would allow a solid argument that the 
> original work contained in the fanfic is entirely protectable by 
> copyright - and that he *owns* that copyright. 
> 

The first time I read this I got exactly the opposite meaning to that 
which (I'm sure) you intended! I was confused over the meaning 
of "original" :)) Tricky thing, English ... I guess that's why have 
lawyers!





From heidit at netbox.com  Sun Feb  9 00:14:27 2003
From: heidit at netbox.com (Heidi Tandy)
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 20:14:27 -0400
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] REPOST: Re: Legal Scenario: Slytherin!Rowling vs. the Fanfic Author
Message-ID: <mailman.31.1576049043.5361.hpfgu-otchatter@archive.hpfgu.org>

ER wrote:
**The first time I read this I got exactly the opposite meaning to that 
which (I'm sure) you intended! I was confused over the meaning 
of "original" :)) Tricky thing, English ... I guess that's why have 
lawyers!**

Original,in this context, just means the lines that are the product of the fanfic author, not jkr. 

What did you first think it meant?

Curiously,
Heidi



From skelkins at attbi.com  Sun Feb  9 00:50:17 2003
From: skelkins at attbi.com (ssk7882 <skelkins@attbi.com>)
Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2003 00:50:17 -0000
Subject: Earliest Memories of the World Outside (was Forcing Kids To Watch History Made)
In-Reply-To: <RL42YT2YZYOIZX646165C7GED0PLZU06.3e4204e4@tk>
Message-ID: <b248k9+h5ae@eGroups.com>

Torsten wrote:

> When I was very little I came upon my grandmother watching a soap. 
> Since there were perfectly normal people on TV, I thought they were 
> real people and asked grandma if WE were on TV, too. That vile old 
> lady said Yes, and it took me several years to realize nobody was 
> watching me on TV all the time, that there were no hidden cameras 
> everywhere.

LOL!

When I was a child, I was morbidly convinced that my parents had 
placed hidden cameras behind all of the mirrors in the house.  The 
full-length mirror in my bedroom particularly disturbed me.  I used 
to agonize over whether I could get away with undressing in the 
corners of the room that the mirror couldn't "see," or whether this 
would be a Bad Idea, because it would let them know that I was *onto* 
them.

When I got a bit older, though, I came to realize that this had been 
a very paranoid notion indeed.  In fact, I came to believe that it 
was likely a symptom of some incipient tendency towards unfortunate 
forms of psychosis.  I therefore resolved to try to guard myself very 
closely against such forms of thinking, as they were obviously not at 
all healthy for me.

And of course, as it turns out, there were never any cameras hidden 
behind the mirrors.  What a silly notion!

No, the *cameras* were all hidden up near the ceilings, mainly.  Most 
of them were masquerading as parts of the sprinkler system.  The one 
in my bedroom was actually that thing that I had always been led to 
believe was a smoke detector.

You know, perfect paranoia is not always perfect awareness?

Sometimes, though, it can come disturbingly close.


Elkins, who remains to this day rather spooked both by mirrors and 
by "Truman Show"-type stories




From urbana at charter.net  Sun Feb  9 01:19:46 2003
From: urbana at charter.net (Anne <urbana@charter.net>)
Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2003 01:19:46 -0000
Subject: The importance of eating chocolate (was re: quotes and questions)
In-Reply-To: <20030208163227.27955.qmail@web41102.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <b24abi+qdle@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Sheryll Townsend 
<s_ings at y...> wrote:
>  --- "annemehr <annemehr at y...>"
> <annemehr at y...> wrote: > WHAT?!!!
> > 
> > Everyone should *know* that chocolate is an
> > essential nutrient!
> > This law was obviously written by a man!
> > 
> > Annemehr
> > getting my daily requirement without fail...
> 
> My husband goes one further and says that chocolate is
> a food group and must be consumed daily. I have no
> problems with his assessment at all! It is a sad day
> here when the house is "chocolate-deficient", as Andy
> calls it and it generally prompts a quick trip to the
> closest store to remedy the situation. :)
> 
> Sheryll


Of course chocolate is a food group, at least for us Muggles. But in 
the Wizarding World, it's even more important since, as we learned in 
POA, it's part of the cure for having non-"kiss"-ing contact with a 
dementor. I assume this means the more dementors one encounters, the 
more chocolate one needs to eat ... and probably the more really 
GREAT chocolate one needs to eat. 

Anne U
(who wonders if Godiva Chocolate will get a product placement in the 
movie of POA)

 




From urbana at charter.net  Sun Feb  9 01:25:16 2003
From: urbana at charter.net (Anne <urbana@charter.net>)
Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2003 01:25:16 -0000
Subject: Lutefisk & Lefse & Norwegians
In-Reply-To: <b229cn+ummq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b24als+iut6@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Steve <bboy_mn at y...>" 
<bboy_mn at y...> wrote:
> Now Lefse is like a Norwegian art form. You take mashed potatoes add
> flour and butter then squeeze it all through a ricer which is a
> kitchen tool that squeezes 'whatever' through small holes. Then you
> roll it out very thin like a soft tortillas. Now comes the art form,
> you cook it over a special grill/griddle like a pancake until it has
> dark brown to black spots on  both sides. True artist always use a
> special wooden Lefse knife-like tool to turn the Lefse over on the
> grill/griddle.
> 
> Once cool, although hot isn't bad, you smear it liberally with 
butter
> and pour lots of sugar on it, then fold it in half, roll it up, and
> eat it. It's actually OK, a little bland though. I've tried to
> convince people that you can put anything on a lefse; jam, jelly,
> peanut butter, whatever, and you would think that I was speaking
> sacrilege. People absolutely refuse to even consider anything but
> butter and sugar. They look at me like I'm crazy.
> 

So basically lefse is Norwegian for "potato crepe". I stand 
corrected. Unlike lutefisk, lefse sounds edible.


> Actually, I'll end with a Norwegian joke. Most of you won't get it,
> but to a Scandinavian, this is hysterical.
> 
> Joke:
> "Did you hear about the Norwegian who loved his wife so much that he
> almost told her."
> 
> Seriously, that's funny joke to a Norwegian.

Sounds like something that came from the "Scandinavian Humor & Other 
Myths" wall calendar I saw a few years ago at a friend's house. The 
month of July was dedicated to "Convolu, the sullen god of 
depression." ;-)

Anne U
(who missed Prairie Home Companion today and wonders what the good 
folks of Lake Wobegon were up to this week)





From urbana at charter.net  Sun Feb  9 02:02:36 2003
From: urbana at charter.net (Anne <urbana@charter.net>)
Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2003 02:02:36 -0000
Subject: Where in the World is HOGWARTS?
In-Reply-To: <avvtu9+8pgv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b24crs+3eln@eGroups.com>

Sorry to bring this up 4 weeks later but something popped into my 
mind...

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Steve <bboy_mn at y...>" 
<bboy_mn at y...> wrote:
> > Actually, there is direct canon evidence that Hogwarts is only 
just
> > north of the Lothian (Edinburgh) region. In CoS, the Daily 
Prophet 
> > reports that the Anglia was spotted over Peebles. Peebles is a 
small
> > town halfway between Carlisle and Edinburgh in the Scottish 
Borders.
><snip> --John
> 
> bboy_mn:
> Yes, they flew over Peebles which is 34 Kilometers south of 
Edinburgh.
> For reference, 30K is about 18.6 miles.
> 
> According to my software world atlas, the train track (single track,
> multi-track and light rail) runs 27 kilometers west of Peebles. And 
in
> rough that same area 27K west of Peebles and few Kilometers north, 
the
> train track splits and allows you to go EITHER to Glasgow or
> Edinburgh. The same track that goes by Peeble can take you to either
> place. Since there is no mention of the train going through another
> major city, I have to assume that they are on one of the other 
tracks
> that passes just slightly to the east of Glasgow which would roughly
> follow the path: Larkhall, Bellshill, Airdrie, Cumbernauld as it
> by-passes Glasgow.
> 
> There are other tracks that follow the coast line on either side of
> the country, but there are no references to seeing the ocean as they
> travel, so I have to assume they used the inland route.
>

So ... has anyone estimated how far it is (miles/km) from King's 
Cross Station to Hogsmeade station, where students leave the Hogwarts 
Express? Also, how far is it from Number 4, Privet Drive, Little 
Whinging, Surrey (Dursleys' house) to King's Cross Station? Yahoomaps 
says it's 402 miles from KCS to downtown Edinburgh (though we don't 
know the location of Hogwarts relative to Edinburgh) and 
approximately 34 miles from KCS to "Surrey Research Centre" which is 
somewhere in Surrey.

Anne U
(not totally sure why I'm obsessing about this but hope to get it 
cleared up)





From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Sun Feb  9 02:36:59 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve <bboy_mn@yahoo.com>)
Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2003 02:36:59 -0000
Subject: Great Days in History
Message-ID: <b24esb+otl7@eGroups.com>

Everyone is recalling events from the past, so I thought I would add a
strange event of my own. I should warn you though, this isn't going to
be funny.


One day when I was very very VERY little, I came home from school, and
my mother rushed over to the door to meet me. She seemed apprehensive
like something was bothering her. Then she told me that Alber Einstien
died. I said, "Who's that?" I think she replied, "Oh, he's some really
smart guy'. She seemed somewhat disappointed. She seemed to need to
share this with someone and me being the 'smart one', I was probably
the only person she knew anywhere who had any hope of understanding
the significants of this. 

I didn't understand it then, but later in life, I saw that as a very
significant moment between my mother and myself. When others came
home, I mentioned it to them, and my mother was right. None of them
had even the slightest hope of understanding the significants. I
remember the most ignorant uneducated unsophisticated redneck
responses imaginable. As much as I don't like to say it, we were white
trash. We made Roseanne Bar look sophisticated. My mother very quickly
dropped the subject, and sent a strong cue to me indicating that 'we'
were the only one who could share this. 

My mother was very smart; straight 'A' student in high school, and I
always regretted that she never got the chance to go to college. She
would have loved it, even if she went as an adult, but it's pretty
safe to say that she would have gotten very little support on the home
front. Of course, I would have understood, I'm the first and only
person in my family to go to college.

So while I don't remember the day Albert Einstien died, I will never
forget the day my mother told me Albert Einstien died. Something she
was only willing to share with me. Kind of makes me feel special.

Sorry, no smiley faces in this story.

bboy_mn





From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Sun Feb  9 03:35:43 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve <bboy_mn@yahoo.com>)
Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2003 03:35:43 -0000
Subject: Where in the World is HOGWARTS?
In-Reply-To: <b24crs+3eln@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b24iaf+3jnt@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Anne <urbana at c...>"
<urbana at c...> wrote:
> Sorry to bring this up 4 weeks later but something popped into my 
> mind...
> 
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Steve <bboy_mn at y...>" 
> <bboy_mn at y...> wrote:
> > > Actually, there is direct canon evidence that Hogwarts is only 
> just
> > > north of the Lothian (Edinburgh) region. ... --John
> > 
> > bboy_mn:
> > Yes, they flew over Peebles which is 34 Kilometers south of 
> > Edinburgh.
> > For reference, 30K is about 18.6 miles.
> > 
> > ... the train track ... runs 27 kilometers west of  Peebles. 
> > And in rough that same area 27K west of Peebles and 
> > few Kilometers north, the train track splits and allows you to 
> > go EITHER to Glasgow or Edinburgh. 
> >
> > -end bboy_mn org-
> 
> So ... has anyone estimated how far it is (miles/km) from King's 
> Cross Station to Hogsmeade station, where students leave the 
> Hogwarts Express? Also, how far is it from Number 4, Privet Drive, 
> Little Whinging, Surrey (Dursleys' house) to King's Cross Station? 
> Yahoomaps says it's 402 miles from KCS to downtown Edinburgh (though
> we don't know the location of Hogwarts relative to Edinburgh) and 
> approximately 34 miles from KCS to "Surrey Research Centre" which is 
> somewhere in Surrey.
> 
> Anne U
> (not totally sure why I'm obsessing about this but hope to get it 
> cleared up)

Possible Locations of Hogwarts-
http://www.homestead.com/BlueMoonMarket/Files/Hogwarts/hogwarts1.htm

This won't mean anything unless you look at my maps; Satelite maps of
Scotland and Britian. And, because of the limited nature of my $10
software maps, I can only give you straight line distances.


[For reference - Loch Ness is a line stretching from Ft. William on
the south end up to Inverness in the north.]

London to ->

Area (1a) = 474.8 miles [Located slightly northwest of Loch Ness
(Inverness)]
Area (1b) = 456.6 miles [Located straight west of Lock Ness (Inverness)]
Area (2) = 434.6 miles [Located slightly east of Loch Ness (slightly
southeast of Inverness)]
Area (3) = 412.0 miles [Located in the central mountain region just
east of Kingussie]
Area (4) = 401.5 miles [Located on the southeast edge of the mountain
region, general north and slightly east of Edinburgh, and roughly due
north of Dundee]

If you would like me to expand that out with an estimate by the rail
routes I assume are being used, I could do that but it a little more
difficult, or you could use Yahoo maps driving distance, to measure
from London to Inverness or London to Dundee and you would have it
pretty close.

The distance to the location west of Peebles where the track forks
(it's on the new map I just added) would be the same for all
locations. From there it's just a question of whether you go west past
Glasgow or east past Edinburgh.

Surrey-
London to Dorking in centeral Surrey is about 20 miles.
London to Guildford which is a larger town 10 miles west of Dorking is
a distance of 28 miles. So Uncle Vernon doesn't really have a very
long drive to London. 
London to the farthest point in Surrey (Hindhead in the southwest
corner is about 38 miles. (Again, straight line distance)

>From the assumed location of Ottery St. Catchpole on the Otter River
in Devon to Central Surrey is 135 miles (Straight line distance, or as
the dragon flys). 

Remember Mrs. Weasley hired 3 muggle taxis to take them from the
Burrow to London; that's about a 145 mile taxi ride (one way of
course). Three taxis times 145 miles, I'm glad that I wasn't paying
for those taxis.


Don't forget to check out the locations of the Wizard's Dragon
Research Center in Romania.
http://BlueMoonMarket.homestead.com/Files/Hogwarts/RomDragCenter.html

[Note: satelite images are large, about 100kb each. On the Dragon site
only the first couple pages use background, so the remainng pages
after should load faster. I have DSL so my judgement of page loading
time is a little warped.]

bboy_mn






From jenP_97 at yahoo.com  Sun Feb  9 05:40:08 2003
From: jenP_97 at yahoo.com (Jennifer Piersol <jenP_97@yahoo.com>)
Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2003 05:40:08 -0000
Subject: Random thought re: pumpkin juice... a week later...
Message-ID: <b24pjo+2iea@eGroups.com>

Sorry, all... catching up.

So.  You remember when we were all having 
that discussion about pumpkin juice?  And it 
morphed into a discussion about butterbeer 
and stuff?

Well, something on tv (Trigger Happy TV on 
Comedy Central) just made me remember 
something.

I always thought JKR was sort of equating 
"Pumpkin Juice" with "squash".  Isn't squash 
some kind of fruit-related soft drink in the 
UK?  So the thought process goes something 
like this...

JKR writes that the kids are ordering squash 
from the trolley lady (on her breaks from 
hanging out with the driver... hahaha)... 
and thinks, "Hmmm.  Wonder if I can give 
them something a little more special than 
squash.  I mean, they're eating BBEFB, 
Chocolate Frogs, etc... and then drinking 
SQUASH???  No.  Too boring.  Hm.... Pumpkins 
are squashes... AND hey!  They're made into 
Jack o' Lanterns on Halloween!  Halloween = 
witches!"

Okay, so I KNOW this is not going to be an 
accurate portrayal of the process, but 
that's how I always imagined it.

What do the Brits think?  Possible?

JenP, now very thirsty.

Ps.  What *is* squash, exactly?  Fruit 
juice?  A smoothie?  Fruit-flavored soda?  
I only know that kids can drink it over 
there... it's all "book smarts" - no 
practical knowledge.




From HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com  Sun Feb  9 05:47:03 2003
From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com (HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 9 Feb 2003 05:47:03 -0000
Subject: Reminder - Weekly Chat 
Message-ID: <1044769623.24.76684.m11@yahoogroups.com>


We would like to remind you of this upcoming event.

Weekly Chat 

Date: Sunday, February 9, 2003 
Time: All Day

Hi everyone! Don't forget, chat happens today, 11 am Pacific, 2
pm Eastern, 7 pm UK time. Go into any Yahoo chat room and type
/join HP:1 
For further info, see the Humongous BigFile, section 3.3.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/hbfile.html#33

Hope to see you there! 

 





From pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no  Sun Feb  9 12:45:43 2003
From: pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no (pengolodh_sc <pengolodh_sc@yahoo.no>)
Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2003 12:45:43 -0000
Subject: Random thought re: pumpkin juice... a week later...
In-Reply-To: <b24pjo+2iea@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b25ihn+glau@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter, Jennifer Piersol wrote:
[snip]

> Ps.  What *is* squash, exactly?  Fruit 
> juice?  A smoothie?  Fruit-flavored soda?  
> I only know that kids can drink it over 
> there... it's all "book smarts" - no 
> practical knowledge.

It is a fruitflavoured concentrate you dilute with water - I'd say 
typically 1 part concentrate to 4 or 5 parts water, but some like it 
stronger (particularly kids), and some prefer it weaker (particularly 
parents, who'd prefer it that kids drink it weak too).  It is a bit 
like Koolaid based on liquid rather than on powder.  One producer is 
Ribena:
http://www.ribena.co.uk/html/about_ribena/products.html
while Rocks concentrates on organic (thus more expensive) types:  
www.rocksorganic.com

Best regards
Christian Stub?




From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Sun Feb  9 14:15:15 2003
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David <dfrankiswork@netscape.net>)
Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2003 14:15:15 -0000
Subject: Undecidability (was reasoning)
In-Reply-To: <b2442f+do93@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b25npj+6sgq@eGroups.com>

ER asked about Godel's theorem:
 
> Does this mean that one can answer any question in mathematics 
simply 
> by dreaming up new axioms? I'm assuming the axioms (=posh word for 
> assumption?) are "non-trivial", i.e. they don't simply echo that 
> which you wish to prove.

First, a disclaimer: this is a branch of mathematics which I never 
covered properly at college, so I'm going by what I've read in 
popularisations written for the mathematically aware general public.

However, I believe the answer is 'no'.  You first have to be sure 
that your question is one of the undecidable ones.  Even then I'm 
not sure that you can just add whatever answer you choose to get a 
new axiom.

Axioms are broadly speaking assumptions.  They are the unproved 
logical statements you make from which you construct your theory.

As an example of why you can't just dream up any axioms you like, 
take the proposition (Goldbach's Conjecture) Grey Wolf mentioned: 
that every even number (other than 2) is the sum of two primes.  
That may well be undecidable within the logical framework.  But if 
so, we can prove quite easily that it is, in fact, true.

For suppose we add the axiom that it is false.  Then we are 
asserting that there is *some* even number which is *not* the sum of 
two primes.  You can then identify this number, simply by taking 
each even number in turn and seeing if it can be expressed as the 
sum of two primes (the actual search might take a long time if the 
number is enormously large!); you have then shown that you can find 
a counterexample to Goldbach's Conjecture *within the existing 
framework of logic* which defines the integers (positive and 
negative whole numbers).  Which means that adding the axiom that the 
GC is false means that the GC can't be undecidable.  Thus we have 
proved, by contradiction, that if GC is undecidable it is true.

So we are only left with three possibilities:

GC is undecideable, and therefore true (which means that you can 
only prove it true by 'stepping outside the system';
GC is true, and can be proven so 'within the system' (IMO the likely 
case, though I can't say I follow breaking mathematical news avidly);
GC is false, and eventually someone finds a falsifying example.

I am not sure which, and how many, mathematical questions (whether 
well-known or not) have been shown to be undecidable.  IIRC, the 
Continuum Hypothesis (which states that there are no transfinite 
cardinals between aleph-null (roughly speaking the 'size of infinity 
corresponding to the natural numbers') and C (roughly speaking 
the 'size of infinity corresponding to all numbers including 
irrationals like the squrea root of 2 and trancendentals like pi')) 
is one.

BTW, there was a debate a few weeks ago between Haggridd and John 
Walton about Reductio ad Absurdam arguments.  I am delighted that 
the meandering course of discussion here has actually allowed me to 
put a genuine, bona fide, copper bottomed RAD argument on the list: 
the proof by contradiction above.

David




From ression at hotmail.com  Sun Feb  9 14:41:21 2003
From: ression at hotmail.com (ER <ression@hotmail.com>)
Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2003 14:41:21 -0000
Subject: REPOST: Re: Legal Scenario: Slytherin!Rowling vs. the Fanfic Author
Message-ID: <b25pah+6u24@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Heidi Tandy" <heidit at n...> 
wrote:
> Original,in this context, just means the lines that are the product 
of the fanfic author, not jkr. 
> 
> What did you first think it meant?
> 

I read "original" as the "first", the "earliest", the "initial", like 
Original Sin I guess. I thought you were saying that the FanFic 
author had copyright over JK's work! And that's not fair I 
thought ... then I reread the paragraph and realised what you meant.

I'm still puzzled about who has rights over what. To me, anything 
that anybody writes that uses (say) Hermione in her Hogwarts-form 
should belong to JK. It's her character, she built her up and 
anything anybody else has her do is just "borrowing" (and luckily JK 
doesn't object). If some FanFic writer gets "lucky" and hits on the 
exact very brave and surprising thing that Hermione does to defeat 
You-Know-Who, then I don't think JK should lose the right to use it! 
But a highly complex area I guess and lots of work for m'learned 
friends. Pistols at dawn, chaps!





From ression at hotmail.com  Sun Feb  9 14:59:07 2003
From: ression at hotmail.com (ER <ression@hotmail.com>)
Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2003 14:59:07 -0000
Subject: quotes and questions
In-Reply-To: <b22cnr+6ldn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b25qbr+fo0h@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr <annemehr at y...>" > 
> WHAT?!!!
> 
> Everyone should *know* that chocolate is an essential nutrient!
> This law was obviously written by a man!
> 
> Annemehr
> getting my daily requirement without fail...

What is it with women and chocolate? I mean, it's disgusting stuff, 
too sweet, sticky, engenders circumferential expansion, gives you a 
sugar bonk followed by a fall to a lower level of sugar thingies (I'm 
no doctor :) that leaves you worse off. Why anybody wants to put the 
stuff near their mouth is beyond me. I think JK has the _correct_ 
idea - chocolate is a nasty medicine, to be taken when you've done 
something untoward such as losing all the bones in your arm or when 
you've been close to playing kissy-kissy with a Dementor.

<shakes head in disbelief>  :))





From mdemeran at hotmail.com  Sun Feb  9 18:34:02 2003
From: mdemeran at hotmail.com (Meg Demeranville)
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 12:34:02 -0600
Subject: TBAY: MD Cheerleading
Message-ID: <001e01c2d069$d161db70$6501a8c0@MFD>

Hearing strange noises from the side lawn of the Safe House, Melody
walked out of the front doors of the Safe House and headed towards the
source. The sight she came across was strange even by Theory Bay
standards. 

 

Gail and Frankie were out on the lawn dressed in fedoras and long trench
coats with dark sunglasses on. Meg was with them, wearing the fedora and
dark sunglasses, and appeared to be directing. Her trench coat was
thrown casually in the grass.

 

"Ok, girls one more time. With feeling." Meg said laughing. "Ready,
Okay." Gail and Frankie lined up facing Meg and began to chant.

 

Standing with her hands on her hips, Meg began, "Who are we?"

 

Gail and Frankie replied, "MD," clapping on each letter.

 

"Who are we?"

 

"MD"

 

Apparently, this rendition was not acceptable for Meg. She frowned
slightly. "We have to show pep you guys. How are we going to convert
newbies to our side? We are the mighty Magic Dishwasher Cheerleading
Squad." Meg's energy was just too much for Melody. She started giggling.
Meg turned toward the noise. "Yes, Melody?"

 

"You do realize that you were meant to be a cheerleader Meg? I know we
have been kidding around about forming the squad, but you really
organized it." Melody laughingly replied as she sat down onto the grass.

 

"Yes, Melody, we did. Hey Grey Wolf, did you come to watch?" Meg
replied.

 

"Is this one of your Southern traditions Meg? Well, let me see." Grey
Wolf said as he settled onto the grass next to Melody.

 

"Ok girls, let's show them. Trust Dishwasher. Ready. Okay." Meg clapped
her hands once and music could be heard. It sounded like the lyrics to
Soul Man. Meg began to sing along with Gail and Frankie as all three
girls danced to the music. 

 

"Coming to ya'

Down Damascus Road.

Conspiracies, we got truckload

And when you think it, you want some. 

But don't you worry cause book 5's coming.

I trust Dishwasher. 

Dah, Dah, Dah, Dah, Dah, Dah, Dah

I trust Dishwasher.

Dum, Dum, Dum, Dumn

 

Got what we thought the hard way

Making it better each and every day
So honey don't you fret
Cause you ain't seen nothing yet
I trust Dishwasher. 

Dah, Dah, Dah, Dah, Dah, Dah, Dah

I trust Dishwasher.

Dum, Dum, Dum, Dumn


Listen
We were brought up on different streets

But in Theory Bay, we all meet
We come together with good thoughts

When we get started, we just can't stop

I trust Dishwasher. 

Dah, Dah, Dah, Dah, Dah, Dah, Dah

I trust Dishwasher.

Dum, Dum, Dum, Dumn

 

We'll grab a theory

And hold on tight

Keep on thinking

'Cause the Dumbledore's got the best spies

Yeah, Yeah 

Yeah, Yeah

Dum, Dum, Dum, Dum"

 

After finishing their cheer and dance, Meg, Gail and Frankie looked up
to find Grey Wolf rolling on the ground laughing. "Meg, you are too
silly. I think you need more sun."

 

"Grey, would you like to get up here and join us? I think you should
come help us. Maybe in a pink tutu?" Meg replied giggling, noting Grey
Wolf's immediate scowl. "Yes, I know, you don't do tutus. Just teasing
you."

 

"Just as long as you know I don't wear tutus." Grey Wolf growled as he
got up off the grass, his tail swishing. "I need to go train Coney
anyway," he said as he walked off.

 

"Bye Grey!" the girls shouted.

 

"One more for Melody, girls?" Meg asked.

 

"Sure thing. Can we show her that Coca-Cola one?" replied Frankie as
Gail nodded in agreement.

 

"Sure, The Real Thing. Ready? Okay." Meg shouted. The girls began
singing and clapping:

 

"We'd like to tell you all about our Dishwasher theory.

Of love and tears and Dumbledore's fears,

For spies all are we.

Our Theory's built with canon and love,

in hopes that we will see,

Dishwasher's true through all Harry's years

and all eternity.

We Dishwasher spies would like to sing

Of this great theory

We'd like for you join us too

and keep us company

That's the song we sing

What you're hoping to find

In the back of your mind

Dishwasher's the real thing."

 

The girls sang this song twice, first very slowly and then repeated it
shouting. When they were finished, Meg turned toward Melody. "Well, what
do you think? We have been working this out for you guys, in honor of
the upcoming release of book 5." Meg looked expectantly at Melody.

 

Melody giggled. "Honestly, I think you guys are just what we needed. How
often are you guys practicing? Is the entire squad composed of you
guys?"

 

Gail replied happily, "Well, currently, it's just us, but we are always
looking for new recruits."

 

Frankie added, "We have been practicing whenever we can."

 

Meg chimed in, "But I think we are going to be practicing more often.
Especially with the new book coming out. And the Magic Dishwasher seems
to be taking a lot of hits lately, so we thought you might need a boost.
We are going to hold a pep rally one of these day."

 

Melody looked around, "I think you have figured out just what we needed.
Now what else do you have?"

 

--Meg (who composed this while working and who wants to FILK certain
songs for the Magic Dishwasher cheerleading squad)



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Feb  9 19:05:12 2003
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston) <catlady@wicca.net>)
Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2003 19:05:12 -0000
Subject: The Sims Online and HOGWARTS
Message-ID: <b268p8+7ttq@eGroups.com>

My friend wrote:
> 
> Dear Rita,
> 
> I have started playing The Sims Online.  There are several cities
> inside the game, and I have a character (snip) living in the city
> named Alphaville at a property named HOGWARTS.  The property owner
> invited me to be a roommate at HOGWARTS the first day we met, and I
> have been having a blast in there.  I have been playing every day 
> for a week, usually until around 2am.
> 
> If you happen to start playing The Sims Online (not recommended
> for addictive personalites, such as mine), come see HOGWARTS in 
> Alphaville. Maybe you know someone who is a player, and can get
> them to check it out with you looking on.
> 
> We have a Potions Class, a Sorting Hat (rack), a great hall with
> dining tables for each of the four schools, and for the teachers.
> We have a Chamber of Secrets, the enchanted forest, a libray with
> a forbidden section, and so many other fun things that we have been
> adding in as we go along. Yesterday we had a trivia contest in
> there that went on for 3 hours, and players who visit our property
> love us!  HOGWARTS is listed in the Offbeat category, and on the
> top 100 for Offbeat HOGWARTS has been climbing the list.  On 2/3
> we were not on the list.  On 2/4 we were 14; on 2/5 we were 8;
> 2/6 7th, 2/7 5th, and yesterday we reached 2nd on the list for 
> Offbeat category.  We are trying for #1.  My roomies also would
> like us to be #1 overall, but I don't know if that is realistic.  
> Money and Skills properties have an "overall" advantage.  But we
> are having a lot of fun with it.




From macloudt at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Feb  9 20:24:01 2003
From: macloudt at yahoo.co.uk (Mary Ann <macloudt@yahoo.co.uk>)
Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2003 20:24:01 -0000
Subject: Birthday Greetings!
Message-ID: <b26dd1+iopp@eGroups.com>

:::::drags a table into the room laiden with party nibbles and two 
cakes:::::

Yes, we have a double birthday again!  Today's greetings go out to 
Mimi and Dianne.  Greetings can be sent to the List or to Mimi at 
mimian16 at edsamail.com.ph

I hope both of you have a fabulous birthday with lots of HP goodies 
in your present piles!

Mary Ann
(TBE)




From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Sun Feb  9 21:10:41 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve <bboy_mn@yahoo.com>)
Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2003 21:10:41 -0000
Subject: REPOST: Re: Legal Scenario: Slytherin!Rowling vs. the Fanfic Author
In-Reply-To: <b25pah+6u24@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b26g4h+m6gq@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "ER <ression at h...>"
<ression at h...> wrote:
>...edited..
> 
> I'm still puzzled about who has rights over what. To me, anything 
> that anybody writes that uses (say) Hermione in her Hogwarts-form 
> should belong to JK. ...edited...

bboy_mn:
Let's try it this way and see if it helps. If I write a fan fiction
story that uses Harry/Ron/Hermione/Weasley brothers/Arthur&Molly/etc;
I OWN THAT STORY, but Rowling own the characters.

If I try to commercialize on my story, I own JKR money for the use of
her characters. 

If she tries to commercialize on my story, the she own me money for my
story.

I own the story because that is a unique works of art that I created.

She owns the charaters because, obviously, they are unique works of
art that she created.

So if she steals my story, it is my story that I would sue her for.

The court ruling on the case may adjust my damages award by what they
consider fair value of the use of her characters. But, since I didn't
commercialize or try to make many money off her characters, her
damages would be very limited.

In a sense, Copyright laws are civil theft laws. They prevent other
people from stealing an artist's work. Stealing implies that the
person stealing act for some personal gain, or act in a way that
deprives the original artist of some personal gain.

Fan Fiction is not-for-profit, in fact, it's not even 'break even'.
Most personal or archive FanFic sigthts lose money because of the
expense of running the sight; paying for the hosting, paying for the
bandwidth. And mostly they are run by volunteers. So JKR is more than
invited to take her fair share of the money WE LOSE. 

The obvious point is that FanFic doesn't steal anything from the
original artist; it doesn't deprive her of anything.

When you look at a store putting a Harry Potter poster in the window,
or having a Harry Potter theme, that is an obvious attempt at making
money, even though, the money doesn't come directly from the use of
the HP references. That's a copyright violation.

Again, FanFic operates at a lose, doesn't deprive or divert the
original author's sources of income, and therefore in my book, is not
a copyright violation. Also, despite being published on the Internet,
it exists for Private Use. It is distributed in limited forums of like
minded individuals for their private personal use.

Of course..... that's just my opinion.

bboy_mn





From ression at hotmail.com  Sun Feb  9 23:26:48 2003
From: ression at hotmail.com (ER <ression@hotmail.com>)
Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2003 23:26:48 -0000
Subject: Undecidability (was reasoning)
In-Reply-To: <b25npj+6sgq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b26o3o+aeda@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "David <dfrankiswork at n...>" 
<dfrankiswork at n...> wrote:

>For suppose we add the axiom that it is false. [snip] Which means 
>that adding the axiom that the GC is false means that the GC can't 
>be undecidable. Thus we have proved, by contradiction, that if GC is 
>undecidable it is true.

You've lost me here - I don't understand where proof by contradiction 
(Reductio ad absurdum) comes into it? Clearly, if GC is false it is 
decidable. Therefore it cannot be false and undecidable. Thus, if it 
is undecidable, it must be true. Which is the conclusion you gave, 
it's just that I don't understand where RAD (RAA?) comes into it?

I'm also intrigued that if is undecidable, then we know it's true - 
doesn't that make it decidable! Er ...

I also think that one can't add an axiom such as "GC is false". It 
wouldn't be considered cricket. Axioms have to be self-evident and 
internally-consistent, and "GC is false" doesn't fit the bill.

So, back to my original (hello Heidi!) question (which you may have 
answered, but if so it went over my head) ... take the Continuum 
Hypothesis (CH) as an example (it's Sunday night, I've had a glass or 
two of red, so why not). It is, as you said, undecidable. I think it 
was Cohen who put the final nail in the coffin, but Godel had a good 
go as well - he showed that it's impossible to prove that the size is 
not Aleph-1. Anyway, under Zermelo-Fraenkel (ZF) we can never know 
its size for sure. The thrust of my question was (and I probably put 
it badly, certainly "dream up" was a poor choice of words, one must 
select very carefully indeed) - can one introduce a new, self-
evident, axiom to ZF that allows CH to be decidable? Can this process 
be extended to any axiom-based regime such that one can eventually 
construct systems to allow any theorem to be decidable? Or will some 
things remain undecidable no matter what we do?

Am I making sense? Probably not. Now my head does hurt :)

Casual readers, who have not being paying attention, should note that 
if -

(a) GC is true and decidable, HH is a sure-bet. I think the smart 
money is on this :)

(b) GC is true, but undecidable, RH is coming up fast on the outside.

(c) GC is false (and thus decidable), Hermione and the Trolley Lady 
are linked in some mysterious way.

Isn't mathematics wonderful!


ER





From ression at hotmail.com  Sun Feb  9 23:33:35 2003
From: ression at hotmail.com (ER <ression@hotmail.com>)
Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2003 23:33:35 -0000
Subject: REPOST: Re: Legal Scenario: Slytherin!Rowling vs. the Fanfic Author
In-Reply-To: <b26g4h+m6gq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b26ogf+8u3q@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Steve <bboy_mn at y...>" 
<bboy_mn at y...> wrote:

> 
> Again, FanFic operates at a lose, doesn't deprive or divert the
> original author's sources of income, and therefore in my book, is 
not
> a copyright violation. Also, despite being published on the 
Internet,
> it exists for Private Use. It is distributed in limited forums of 
like
> minded individuals for their private personal use.
> 

Absolutely agree, but it's not what I was "worrying" about. I was 
concerned about the fact (if I read Heidy Tandy's post correctly) 
that you can use JK's characters and get them to do something 
wonderful and then deprive JK of the right to have them do that same 
thing without breaching some copyright that you now own.

ER





From heidit at netbox.com  Sun Feb  9 23:39:48 2003
From: heidit at netbox.com (heiditandy)
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 18:39:48 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] REPOST: Re: Legal Scenario: Slytherin!Rowling vs. the Fanfic Author
In-Reply-To: <b26ogf+8u3q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <02d001c2d094$88c9f7f0$0301a8c0@Frodo>

Bboy wrote:
> > 
> > Again, FanFic operates at a lose, doesn't deprive or divert the 
> > original author's sources of income, and therefore in my book, is
> not
> > a copyright violation. Also, despite being published on the
> Internet,
> > it exists for Private Use. It is distributed in limited forums of
> like
> > minded individuals for their private personal use.

ER wrote:
> Absolutely agree, but it's not what I was "worrying" about. I was 
> concerned about the fact (if I read Heidy Tandy's post correctly) 
> that you can use JK's characters and get them to do something 
> wonderful and then deprive JK of the right to have them do that same 
> thing without breaching some copyright that you now own.

Actually, that is what I was saying. If JKR uses a fanfic writer's exact
words, taken from the fanfic itself, then she would likely be infringing
on the fanficcer's copyright to do so, if you look to the Copyright
Act's specific language. If she merely used the same idea and different
words, there would be no cause of action under copyright at all. 

Second, Bboy is not accurate when it comes to the question of whether
something "published" on the internet is published for "Private Use".
There is no such concept under US copyright law. Limited forum? That's
only relevant to assessing the dollar figure for the damages done, not
whether an infringement exists at all. 

Heidi





From zeff8 at attbi.com  Mon Feb 10 02:01:00 2003
From: zeff8 at attbi.com (Prof_chase)
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 21:01:00 -0500
Subject: ebay account skam alert, to all ebay users. 
Message-ID: <000501c2d0a8$42863510$9c01f50c@mac>

EBAY ALERT, A theif is trying to steal your account info.

This is to make you aware, that there is emails going out to ebay buyers,
asking you to click on a website and fill out some info, to confirm your
account info, due to ebay's taking over Paypal. I got one today.

I contacted ebay and was told the email is a skam, and attempt to steal your
account information.



Join HP collectables, do discuss collecting various HP items.
Subscribe:  HPcollectables-subscribe at yahoogroups.com
Unsubscribe:  HPcollectables-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
List owner:  HPcollectables-owner at yahoogroups.com




From lupinesque at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 10 11:54:40 2003
From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z <lupinesque@yahoo.com>)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 11:54:40 -0000
Subject: Carter, childhood political savvy
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030207011528.00ce7e50@mail.societyhappens.com>
Message-ID: <b283u0+klhi@eGroups.com>

Sushi wrote, and incidentally engendered a terrific craving for 
salmon maki just by signing her (?) name:

>The earliest memory I've got of a politically-inclined nature is: 
when I 
> was two, I was out shopping with my mom.  We were going to 
Carter's - 
> children's wear - and I asked her, "Does the president own the 
> store?"  Took her a little while to convince me that not everyone 
with the 
> surname "Carter" was related to the president.

My mother's second favorite response to complaining children 
was "you've got more problems than Carter has pills," which left me 
with the impression that the president was unwell.  When I finally 
asked her about it, she said it had nothing to do with Jimmy Carter 
but was a reference to Carter's Little Liver Pills.  

Her *very* favorite response was "the complaint department's on the 
roof," which had a particularly vivid effect because the first time I 
recall her saying that was during a car trip (car trips generate a 
lot of whining from children), and I imagined us trying to hang on to 
the roof of the car as it careened along I-80 at 70 m.p.h.

Eileen, your childhood take on political reality made me LMAO.  The 
world must have seemed a very exciting, if dangerous, place.  And I 
would love to meet your parents.

Amy Z




From rvotaw at i-55.com  Mon Feb 10 20:35:12 2003
From: rvotaw at i-55.com (rvotaw1 <rvotaw@i-55.com>)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 20:35:12 -0000
Subject: DVD Question
Message-ID: <b292e0+39l4@eGroups.com>

Dumb question here, if I buy a DVD of HP PS, from England, that's 
Region 2.  Isn't that different than the US DVD's?  Which means, will 
it play on a US DVD player?  Or how can I tell?  Help?!

Richelle




From john at queerasjohn.com  Mon Feb 10 20:41:49 2003
From: john at queerasjohn.com (Queer as John)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 20:41:49 +0000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] DVD Question
In-Reply-To: <b292e0+39l4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <BA6DBF0D.75F0%john@queerasjohn.com>

rvotaw1 <rvotaw at i-55.com> said:

> Dumb question here, if I buy a DVD of HP PS, from England, that's Region 2.
> Isn't that different than the US DVD's?

Yep.

> Which means, will it play on a US DVD player?

Nope. Not unless you know someone who can hack your region chip.

> Or how can I tell?  Help?!

Buy the Canadian version instead. Not only will you not have to pay such
high import taxes, it'll be the correct region.

OTOH, if your computer has a DVD drive, set it to region 2 and watch your
British DVDs on that ;)

--J

______________________________________

Queer as John || john at queerasjohn.com

AIM, YM & LJ @ QueerAsJohn || www.queerasjohn.com

"It's raining John! Hallelujah!"
______________________________________




From heidit at netbox.com  Mon Feb 10 20:33:59 2003
From: heidit at netbox.com (Heidi Tandy)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 16:33:59 -0400
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] DVD Question
Message-ID: <mailman.32.1576049043.5361.hpfgu-otchatter@archive.hpfgu.org>

It won't play on a us player. However, the Canadian version, which is "Philosopher's Stone" through and through, will play on US machines. Amazon.ca is your friend. 

Heidi Tandy
Follow me to FictionAlley - Harry Potter fanfics of all shapes, sizes and ships - 7 sickles an ounce
http://www.FictionAlley.org 
-----Original Message-----
From: "rvotaw1 <rvotaw at i-55.com>" <rvotaw at i-55.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 20:35:12 
To:HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] DVD Question

Real-To:  "rvotaw1 <rvotaw at i-55.com>" <rvotaw at i-55.com>

Dumb question here, if I buy a DVD of HP PS, from England, that's 
Region 2.  Isn't that different than the US DVD's?  Which means, will 
it play on a US DVD player?  Or how can I tell?  Help?!

Richelle


________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________

Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the group's Admin Files!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/

Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying!

Is your message...
An announcement of merchandise, news etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements.
Movie-related? Send it to HPFGU-Movie.
Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups.
None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter.
Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com

Unsubscribing? Email HPFGU-OTChatter-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
____________________________________________________________ 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 





From ression at hotmail.com  Mon Feb 10 22:47:52 2003
From: ression at hotmail.com (ER <ression@hotmail.com>)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 22:47:52 -0000
Subject: REPOST: Re: Legal Scenario: Slytherin!Rowling vs. the Fanfic Author
In-Reply-To: <02d001c2d094$88c9f7f0$0301a8c0@Frodo>
Message-ID: <b29a6o+gd9m@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "heiditandy" <heidit at n...> 
wrote:

> Actually, that is what I was saying. If JKR uses a fanfic writer's 
exact
> words, taken from the fanfic itself, then she would likely be 
infringing
> on the fanficcer's copyright to do so, if you look to the Copyright
> Act's specific language. If she merely used the same idea and 
different
> words, there would be no cause of action under copyright at all. 
> 

Ah, that's not so bad then - I had thought JK would be unable to use 
the idea at all without infringing copyright. How much change would 
she have to make to the words? Assuming Hermione was "swishing" a 
wand in the FanFiccers version could JK just have her "waving" a wand 
in, say, a fifty word paragraph? Or would the changes have to be 
greater? Could she have the same character carrying out the same deed?

ER





From rvotaw at i-55.com  Tue Feb 11 01:30:58 2003
From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 19:30:58 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] DVD Question
References: <BA6DBF0D.75F0%john@queerasjohn.com>
Message-ID: <001701c2d16d$3b24e7b0$a79ecdd1@RVotaw>

Heidi wrote:

> It won't play on a us player. However, the Canadian version, which is 
> "Philosopher's Stone" through and through, will play on US machines. Amazon.ca > is your friend. 

And Queer as John wrote:

> Buy the Canadian version instead. Not only will you not have to pay such
> high import taxes, it'll be the correct region.

Ah, of course.  Canada.  How silly of me.  Come to think of it, if I have the patience I'm going to Toronto in September, I could get it for a souvenir.  What a good excuse.  Still, who needs an excuse? :)

Queer as John again:

> OTOH, if your computer has a DVD drive, set it to region 2 and watch your
> British DVDs on that ;)

Say, now that you mention it, the first (and only, so far) time I watched a DVD on my computer it asked me to choose a region.  So *that's* what it was talking about!  I had no idea at the time.  I just clicked things until something worked. :)

Thanks for the input!

Richelle


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From kristilynn5 at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 11 01:54:14 2003
From: kristilynn5 at yahoo.com (kristilynn5 <kristilynn5@yahoo.com>)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 01:54:14 -0000
Subject: bounced
Message-ID: <b29l46+qf33@eGroups.com>

Sorry to trouble y'all with this, but earlier today I was told my 
messages were getting "bounced."  I went to groups and reactivated my 
accounts, but I am still not receiving my email from my groups.  Do 
y'all have any suggestions?
Thanks,
Kristi




From shufan90 at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 11 02:10:48 2003
From: shufan90 at yahoo.com (shufan)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 18:10:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] bounced
In-Reply-To: <b29l46+qf33@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20030211021048.25973.qmail@web80009.mail.yahoo.com>


This happened to me on Saturday and I just starting to get my mail today.  You have to wait for a confirmation email from yahoo to reactivate and then the messages will come to your box.  Good Luck!
 
Jennifer
 "kristilynn5 <kristilynn5 at yahoo.com>" <kristilynn5 at yahoo.com> wrote:Sorry to trouble y'all with this, but earlier today I was told my 
messages were getting "bounced."  I went to groups and reactivated my 
accounts, but I am still not receiving my email from my groups.  Do 
y'all have any suggestions?
Thanks,
Kristi


Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
var lrec_target="_top";var lrec_URL = new Array();lrec_URL[1] = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.2891370.4259126.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1707544108:HM/A=1430287/R=0/id=flashurl/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405";var link="javascript:LRECopenWindow(1)";var lrec_flashfile = 'http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/intl_library_of_poetry/yahoo_300x250.swf?clickTAG='+link+'';var lrec_altURL = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.2891370.4259126.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1707544108:HM/A=1430287/R=1/id=altimgurl/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405";var lrec_altimg = "http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/intl_library_of_poetry/yahoo_300x250.gif";var lrec_width = 300;var lrec_height = 250;
________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________

Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the group's Admin Files!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/

Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying!

Is your message...
An announcement of merchandise, news etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements.
Movie-related? Send it to HPFGU-Movie.
Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups.
None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter.
Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com

Unsubscribing? Email HPFGU-OTChatter-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
____________________________________________________________ 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From belleps at october.com  Tue Feb 11 02:24:58 2003
From: belleps at october.com (Beth)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 20:24:58 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Squash WAS Re: Random thought
In-Reply-To: <1044878204.4075.38730.m12@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20030210201936.00a11870@pop.cox-internet.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter, Jennifer Piersol wrote:
[snip]

 > Ps.  What *is* squash, exactly?  Fruit
 > juice?  A smoothie?  Fruit-flavored soda?
 > I only know that kids can drink it over
 > there... it's all "book smarts" - no
 > practical knowledge.

Christian Stub?:
 >It is a fruitflavoured concentrate you dilute with water - I'd say
typically 1 part concentrate to 4 or 5 parts water, but some like it
stronger (particularly kids), and some prefer it weaker (particularly
parents, who'd prefer it that kids drink it weak too).  It is a bit
like Koolaid based on liquid rather than on powder.  One producer is
Ribena:
http://www.ribena.co.uk/html/about_ribena/products.html
while Rocks concentrates on organic (thus more expensive) types:
www.rocksorganic.com<

bel:
Ribena black currant is absolutely yummy. REALLY good. Mixes well with 
water or with 7-Up (lemon-lime soda) or with plain "fizzy water". Also kind 
of nice to add a half teaspoon or so to a cup of tea. I can usually find it 
in Oriental markets here in Austin. Go figure. <grin> I was introduced to 
it by someone whose parents are from Germany.

I'm having Ribena withdrawal symptoms now....

<grin>
bel




From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 11 02:51:33 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve <bboy_mn@yahoo.com>)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 02:51:33 -0000
Subject: bounced
In-Reply-To: <b29l46+qf33@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b29ofl+jnq6@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "kristilynn5
<kristilynn5 at y...>" <kristilynn5 at y...> wrote:
> Sorry to trouble y'all with this, but earlier today I was told my 
> messages were getting "bounced."  I went to groups and reactivated my 
> accounts, but I am still not receiving my email from my groups.  Do 
> y'all have any suggestions?
> Thanks,
> Kristi

bboy_mn:

This happened to me several times, I thought maybe if I explained HOW
it happened to me, that might give you some insight into your problem.

I started using a mail screening program to reduce the amount of SPAM
I get on my computer and to pre-screen for viruses. This program has a
feature that allows me to BOUNCE emails back to the sended to make it
look like my email address is no longer valid. If you do this enough
times then you email address starts to look like bad address and gets
dropped from the email address databases that are being distributed.

The problem occurs when I bounce a message that has been sent to my
Yahoo address FROM a YAHOO address. When the Yahoo Email server
recieve the 'bounce' email, it thinks that it has found a bad Yahoo
email address. So it freezes the account and test the address by
sending a message telling you to reactivate your account. If the
account is never re-activated then they can be pretty sure it is a
dead account. If you do re-activate then they assume ti was a random
error and that everything is fine.

The problem is millions of people take out a Yahoo or Hotmail address
and use it to send out a million advertisements which causes
Yahoo/Hotmail to cancel the account, but it's too late then, the
emails have already gone out. The next time, they invent a new email
(Yahoo or Hotmail) name and do it all over again.

If you look at some of the return addesses from Yahoo/Hotmail source
SPAM, you will see that the name is just a random bunch of letters and
numbers. There are email 'robot' programs that will create a randomly
generated/create Yahoo/Hotmail usernames and account each time the
program is used. That makes it almost impossible to track the SPAM
back to the source. And it makes it almost impossible for
Yahoo/Hotmail to stop these people.

So, if you bounce a message that comes to your Yahoo address from a
Yahoo address. The Yahoo email server will pick it up as it passes
through and think it has found a bad Yahoo email address.

Probably more than you wanted to know, but there you have it.

bboy_mn





From belleps at october.com  Tue Feb 11 02:43:30 2003
From: belleps at october.com (Beth)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 20:43:30 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] CHOCOLATE
In-Reply-To: <1044878204.4075.38730.m12@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20030210204005.00a112a0@pop.cox-internet.com>

ER writes:
 >What is it with women and chocolate? I mean, it's disgusting stuff,
too sweet, sticky, engenders circumferential expansion, gives you a
sugar bonk followed by a fall to a lower level of sugar thingies (I'm
no doctor :) that leaves you worse off.

One word: phenylethylamine. The "love chemical" in chocolate that makes you 
feel warm, fuzzy, and nurtured. Works especially well on depression, 
loneliness, PMS, and dementors. Yum.

(I'm having mine tonight in the form of coffee/creme-filled Oreos. Really 
dangerous. And I'm sorry about "shouting" in the title, but how can you NOT 
capitalize CHOCOLATE? <grin>)

bel




From the.gremlin at verizon.net  Tue Feb 11 03:15:14 2003
From: the.gremlin at verizon.net (the.gremlin at verizon.net)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 21:15:14 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] DVD Question
Message-ID: <20030211031514.HQGX3094.out003.verizon.net@[192.168.129.96]>

I have my own DVD question. I actually don't know what you people are talking about with "regions", but I have a DVD player on my computer and the US version of Harry Potter. Now, my operating system is Windows XP, Home edition. There are 2 discs. I can only use the first one. When I put the disk in the first time, it installed InterActual Player for me. However, in the 2nd disc, whenever I try to get into Diagon Alley, the program freezez up, and I can't access anything beyond that brick wall.

Has anyone else tried the DVD on their computer, and does anyone think if it's just the InterActual Program that doesn't want to work for me? I have tried the DVD on Windows 2000 or 1998 (I forget which) and it worked.

Any help would be appreciated, because I want to watch the deleted scenes again.

-Acire, who was spoken to by Kevin Costner, who worked with Alan Rickman, at the AT&T Pebble Beach ProAm Golf Tournament.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com  Tue Feb 11 03:23:48 2003
From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 22:23:48 EST
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] DVD Question
Message-ID: <ac.38b983a7.2b79c6c4@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/10/2003 10:16:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
the.gremlin at verizon.net writes:


> I have my own DVD question. I actually don't know what you people are 
> talking about with "regions", but I have a DVD player on my computer and 
> the US version of Harry Potter. Now, my operating system is Windows XP, 
> Home edition. There are 2 discs. I can only use the first one. When I put 
> the disk in the first time, it installed InterActual Player for me. 
> However, in the 2nd disc, whenever I try to get into Diagon Alley, the 
> program freezez up, and I can't access anything beyond that brick wall.

I actually had the same exact problem (except it didn't freeze until I got to 
Ollivander's). I honestly don't know what could be wrong. I tried it again on 
my PlayStation 2 and it worked just fine. I guess my advice would be to check 
it on a friend's computer or DVD player and see if the problem persists. 

~Cassie~ 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From Patty at backstreet-wallpaper.net  Tue Feb 11 03:51:11 2003
From: Patty at backstreet-wallpaper.net (Patty)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 22:51:11 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] bounced
References: <b29l46+qf33@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <004201c2d180$d217f640$0101a8c0@pavilion>

Kristi wrote:
Sorry to trouble y'all with this, but earlier today I was told my 
messages were getting "bounced."  I went to groups and reactivated my 
accounts, but I am still not receiving my email from my groups.  Do 
y'all have any suggestions?
Thanks,
Kristi

Me:
Kristi, I am a moderator for a couple of lists and I have taken care of the bouncing lists on both of them. Lately I have noticed a trend in the people who are being placed there. Most of them are Yahoo email users and of those a good portion of them are "Hard" bouncing. I have looked at the error messages that Yahoo sends to Yahoo Groups and the majority of the messages say that the "relay was denied". Because of this I have come to the belief that it is a problem with Yahoo email accounts. I have contacted Yahoo about this problem, but past communications to them have never been responded to, so I don't know if I will ever get an answer, but at least the problem has been brought to their attention. 

The only advice I can give you is to wait just a little while longer to see if your mail service will resume and if not I would suggest that you contact Yahoo about this. Another thing is, since this seems to be a Yahoo problem, I would not rule out the possibility that you end up on the bouncing list again. So periodically you might want to check your status by going to your "My Groups" page http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups/ and check there. It should give you a warning if your email address is bouncing. 


Patty


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From kelleythompson at gbronline.com  Tue Feb 11 03:56:36 2003
From: kelleythompson at gbronline.com (Kelley <kelleythompson@gbronline.com>)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 03:56:36 -0000
Subject: bounced
In-Reply-To: <20030211021048.25973.qmail@web80009.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <b29s9k+jg7d@eGroups.com>

Kristi:
>Sorry to trouble y'all with this, but earlier today I was told my 
> messages were getting "bounced."  I went to groups and reactivated 
my accounts, but I am still not receiving my email from my groups.  
Do y'all have any suggestions?

Jennifer:
> This happened to me on Saturday and I just starting to get my mail 
today.  You have to wait for a confirmation email from yahoo to 
reactivate and then the messages will come to your box.  Good Luck! 
>>>>>

Yes, Kristi, as Jennifer has said, sometimes it just takes Yahoo a 
little time to 'catch up'.  If you don't start receiving your 
messages soon, please let me know.  You're not listed as 'bouncing', 
which means your account status is 'normal' now, so you should start 
receiving messages as usual quite soon.

Everyone, at the moment there are around 60 folks on this list who 
are bouncing, and several *hundred* bouncing on the main list.  If 
you've noticed that you no longer have the "Post" option on the list, 
or if your messages aren't turning up when you email them, and/or 
that you're no longer receiving messages from the list, you're 
probably bouncing.  This can be easily taken care of, so please 
contact me (kelleythompson@ gbronline.com) or the rest of the mods 
and elves (HPforGrownups-owner@ yahoogroups.com or HPFUG-OTChatter-
owner@ yahoogroups.com) if you'd like to reactivate your account.

Thanks!

--Kelley, one o' the Mods...




From lupinesque at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 11 12:29:08 2003
From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z <lupinesque@yahoo.com>)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 12:29:08 -0000
Subject: CHOCOLATE
In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20030210204005.00a112a0@pop.cox-internet.com>
Message-ID: <b2aqak+er11@eGroups.com>

ER writes:

>  >What is it with women and chocolate? I mean, it's disgusting 
stuff,
> too sweet, sticky, engenders circumferential expansion, gives you a
> sugar bonk followed by a fall to a lower level of sugar thingies 
(I'm
> no doctor :) that leaves you worse off.

Ah, but that's why you always keep at least a pound of chocolate 
around.  To treat the low level of sugar thingies.

Amy
contemplating making chocolate frosting for breakfast




From rvotaw at i-55.com  Tue Feb 11 14:18:27 2003
From: rvotaw at i-55.com (rvotaw at i-55.com)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 08:18:27 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] DVD Question
Message-ID: <30486841.1044973107827.JavaMail.root@webmail.i-55.com>

Acire wrote:

> Has anyone else tried the DVD on their computer, and does anyone think if 
it's just the InterActual Program that doesn't want to work for me? I have 
tried the DVD on Windows 2000 or 1998 (I forget which) and it worked.<BR>
> <BR>
> Any help would be appreciated, because I want to watch the deleted scenes 
again.<BR>

It's the InterActual program that is the problem here.  I have two programs on 
my computer to run DVD's with.  InterActual works fine for watching DVD's, but 
not for the interactive programs like on the HP disk 2.  The other program I 
use (sorry, can't remember the name of it now!) works fine.

Richelle

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From kristilynn5 at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 11 16:06:45 2003
From: kristilynn5 at yahoo.com (Kristi Smith)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 08:06:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: bounced
In-Reply-To: <b29s9k+jg7d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20030211160645.68678.qmail@web40309.mail.yahoo.com>


Many thanks to all who responded to my "bounced" query.  All is well now :)
Have a wonderful day,
KristiYahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
var lrec_target="_top";var lrec_URL = new Array();lrec_URL[1] = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.2891370.4259126.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1707544108:HM/A=1430287/R=0/id=flashurl/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405";var link="javascript:LRECopenWindow(1)";var lrec_flashfile = 'http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/intl_library_of_poetry/yahoo_300x250.swf?clickTAG='+link+'';var lrec_altURL = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.2891370.4259126.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1707544108:HM/A=1430287/R=1/id=altimgurl/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405";var lrec_altimg = "http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/intl_library_of_poetry/yahoo_300x250.gif";var lrec_width = 300;var lrec_height = 250;
________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________

Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the group's Admin Files!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/

Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying!

Is your message...
An announcement of merchandise, news etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements.
Movie-related? Send it to HPFGU-Movie.
Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups.
None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter.
Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com

Unsubscribing? Email HPFGU-OTChatter-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
____________________________________________________________ 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From the.gremlin at verizon.net  Tue Feb 11 19:20:03 2003
From: the.gremlin at verizon.net (the.gremlin at verizon.net)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 13:20:03 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] DVD Question
Message-ID: <20030211192003.VIFA1680.pop018.verizon.net@[127.0.0.1]>

Richelle:

"It's the InterActual program that is the problem here.  I have two programs on my computer to run DVD's with.  InterActual works fine for watching DVD's, but not for the interactive programs like on the HP disk 2.  The other program I use (sorry, can't remember the name of it now!) works fine."

Yeah, I sort of figured it had to do with InterActual, seeing as how it's frozen my computer a few times. So I tried it with InterWin DVD, and not only does it work, but the sound seems to be better! I can actaully hear Snape's pen scratching the parchment...don't know if that's a good thing...So, thanks!

-Acire, who is glad there are people willingly contributing to her HP and Snape obsession.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From bray.262 at osu.edu  Tue Feb 11 14:26:24 2003
From: bray.262 at osu.edu (Rachel Bray)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 14:26:24 +0000 (EST5EDT)
Subject: CHOCOLATE
Message-ID: <9663605A72@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>

Exercise is a dirty word... Every time I hear it, I wash my 
mouth out with chocolate. 

"Las cosas claras y el chocolate espeso." (Ideas should be 
clear and chocolate thick.) 
Spanish proverb 

I don't understand why so many "so called" chocolate lovers 
complain about the calories in chocolate, when all true 
chocoholics know that it is a vegetable. It comes from the 
cocoa bean, beans are veggies, 'nuff said. 

Chemically speaking, chocolate really is the world's 
perfect food. 
Michael Levine, nutrition researcher, as quoted in ?The 
Emperors of Chocolate: Inside the Secret World of Hershey 
and Mars?.

I could give up chocolate but I'm not a quitter. 

Put the chocolate in the bag and nobody gets hurt. 

A day without chocolate is a day without sunshine. 

Life without chocolate is like a beach without water. 

I have this theory that chocolate slows down the aging 
process.... It may not be true, but do I dare take the 
chance? 

I am a serious chocoholic. For the serious chocoholic, 
chocolate is better than sex. If you believe that, you 
REALLY need to meet that special someone who can change 
your mind. If you HAVE met that special someone and still 
believe that, I REALLY NEED to know where you get your 
chocolate!!! 

Don't wreck a sublime chocolate experience by feeling 
guilty. Chocolate isn't like premarital sex. It will not 
make you pregnant. And it always feels good. Lora Brody, 
author of Growing Up on the Chocolate Diet 

In the beginning, the Lord created chocolate, and He saw 
that it was good. Then He separated the light from the 
dark, and it was better. 

Chocolate - The breakfast of champions! 

Chocolate in the morning is what makes moms get through 
their day! 

If not for chocolate, there would be no need for control 
top pantyhose. An entire garment industry would be 
devastated. 

Put "eat chocolate" at the top of your list of things to do 
today. That way, at least you'll get one thing done. 

Chocolate flows in deep dark, sweet waves, a river to 
ignite my mind and alert my senses 

Chocolate doesn't make the world go around ... but it 
certainly makes the ride worthwhile! 

Man cannot live on chocolate alone; but woman sure can. 

Everything I eat should contain either garlic or chocolate, 
but rarely both 

Researchers have discovered that chocolate produced some of 
the same reactions in the brain as marijuana. The 
researchers also discovered other similarities between the 
two, but can't remember what they are. 
Matt Lauer on NBC's Today Show, August 22 

Twill make Old Women Young and Fresh; Create New Motions of 
the Flesh. And cause them long for you know what, If they 
but taste of chocolate. 
James Wadsworth (1768 ? 1844)

Chocolate: luscious, lumpy. load of love...... 

All of the evil that people have thrust upon chocolate is 
really more deserved by milk chocolate, which is 
essentially contaminated. The closer you get to a pure 
chocolate liquor (the chocolate essence ground from roasted 
cacao beans) the purer it is, the more satisfying it is, 
the safer it is, and the healthier it is. 
Arnold Ismach, "The Darker Side of Chocolate" 

... the taste of chocolate is a sensual pleasure in itself, 
existing in the same world as sex... For myself, I can 
enjoy the wicked pleasure of chocolate... entirely by 
myself. Furtiveness makes it better. 
Dr. Ruth Westheimer 

Simply put... everyone has a price, mine is chocolate! 

Rachel Bray
The Ohio State University
Fees & Deposits

The light at the end of the tunnel may be an 
angry, flying Ford Anglia.



From timregan at microsoft.com  Tue Feb 11 20:05:43 2003
From: timregan at microsoft.com (Tim Regan <timregan@microsoft.com>)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 20:05:43 -0000
Subject: Undecidability (was reasoning)
In-Reply-To: <b26o3o+aeda@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b2bl2n+a12m@eGroups.com>

Hi All,

--- "ER" wrote:
> can one introduce a new, self-evident, axiom to ZF that allows CH 
to be decidable? 

My understanding of G?del's Theorem is that your job would never be 
finished. For any new theorem, you could extend the axioms to make 
the theorem provable (the easy way is to add the theorem as an axiom 
itself, but there may be ways that meet your "self-evident" criteria 
too). But lurking around the corner is another theorem that you 
cannot prove so you add axioms to fix that. But lurking around the 
corner is another theorem that you cannot prove so you add axioms to 
fix that. But lurking around the corner is another theorem that you 
cannot prove so you add axioms to fix that. If I were Lemony Snicket 
I'd keep this going for at least a page, but I'm not. G?del proved 
that you must either go on forever adding axioms or add one that 
contradicts an existing axiom rendering the system inconsistent.

Back to the Continuum Hypothesis. I think there are a whole bunch of 
axioms that one can add, that each turn out to be equivalent to the 
hypothesis itself, and thus render it provable. None of them are 
self-evident in the same sense that Zermelo-Fraenkel set theory 
axioms are. But "self-evident" is a subjective term.

Self-evident axioms have a hard time through history. Think of 
Euclid's axiom that parallel lines never meet and Lobachevsky's 
sphere work (where parallel lines do meet!); or the law of excluded 
middle (something is true or it is not true) and constructivist 
mathematics (which proved 'useful' to theoretical computer 
scientists since the constructivist's notion of proof coincides with 
the execution of a program).

Though it's out of print now I really liked Wiliiam S. 
Hatcher's "The Logical Foundations of Mathematics" (Pergammon 1982; 
ISBN 0-08-025800-X). He has a great Chapter on Frege's system. 
Hatcher got me so lulled by the clarity of the system that I found 
the flaw (Russel's paradox) a shock when it is unveiled at the end 
of the chapter - even though I was already familiar with the paradox 
and its implication to Frege.

It is odd how G?del's Theorem hasn't had the impact you'd expect in 
mathematics, outside the study of logic and foundations. I did a 
maths degree as an undergrad (ages ago, '84 - '87), and while we 
covered the theorem in logic, it was not mentioned in any other part 
of the mathematics course. Recently though, we had a talk at work 
from a Berkeley Computer Science professor, Martin Davis, which he 
described as follows:
"Although Kurt G?del was on TIME magazine's list of the twenty 
greatest "scientists and thinkers" of the twentieth century, the 
work of the overwhelming majority of mathematicians has been quite 
unaffected by his work.  I will discuss Godel's own vision of the 
implications of his incompleteness theorem for the future of 
mathematics, and will talk about what has actually been accomplished 
in that direction."
It was a good talk (though sadly lots of it was over my head).

With all this OT chatter of mathematics, it would be great to know 
what Hermione actually learns in Arithmancy. But sadly, I my think 
finding out is about as likely as my getting a Hogwart's letter :-(

Cheers,

Dumbledad.





From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 11 21:59:16 2003
From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent <psychic_serpent@yahoo.com>)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 21:59:16 -0000
Subject: Undecidability (was reasoning)
In-Reply-To: <b2bl2n+a12m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b2brnl+rf0u@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Tim Regan <timregan at m...>" 
<timregan at m...> wrote:
> 
> With all this OT chatter of mathematics, it would be great to know 
> what Hermione actually learns in Arithmancy. But sadly, I my think 
> finding out is about as likely as my getting a Hogwart's letter :-(
 
Actually, it's pretty easy to find out what she SHOULD be learning.  
Just Google "Arithmancy" and you'll get a slew of sites explaining 
what this is.  The short answer: numerology, basically, largely to 
do with birthdates and a little with names.  I'm assuming JKR 
doesn't know this, or at least didn't when she first thought of 
making this a subject that sounded vaguely mathematical (since her 
strength is words, not numbers, I'm not a bit surprised about 
this).  The additional irony of Arithmancy being Hermione's favorite 
subject (it's made to sound somewhat complicated, like trigonometry 
or calculus, when it's really just all addition) is that Arithmancy 
is yet another form of divination, which Hermione detests.  

It's also unclear why someone else should teach this instead of 
Trelawney, especially as it takes very little time to grasp the 
basic concept of adding up a person's birthdate or the numerical 
values in the letters of a person's name, which would hardly merit 
this being a separate course one would take for five years.  
Frankly, it is far more difficult to create astrological charts 
using astronomical data.  I'm not surprised Harry and Ron make up 
things on their charts, since there's no evidence given that they do 
anything but snooze through Astronomy class (when it's mentioned at 
all).

If JKR really thinks Arithmancy has anything to do with complex 
calculations, that could explain why just about all of her Flints 
have to do with problems with numbers (such as how many World Cups 
there have been versus the year the first one was played and the 
frequency of the Cup matches, which is a combination Flint between 
GoF and Quidditch Through the Ages).

--Barb, dangerously on-topic for the OT list

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent
http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb





From ression at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 11 23:33:32 2003
From: ression at hotmail.com (ER <ression@hotmail.com>)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 23:33:32 -0000
Subject: CHOCOLATE
In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20030210204005.00a112a0@pop.cox-internet.com>
Message-ID: <b2c18c+tvpm@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Beth <belleps at o...> wrote:

>One word: phenylethylamine.

And what a word! And I thought it was all down to the cocoa ... see, 
stuffing nasty chemicals into it, it should be prescription only :)


>The "love chemical" in chocolate that makes you feel warm, fuzzy, 
and nurtured. Works especially well on depression, loneliness, PMS, 
and dementors. Yum.

No, that's a glass of claret you're thinking of. Works for me! Never 
had PMS ;) Or Dementors, now I come to think of it. Nor depression - 
now I feel really bad.

>(I'm having mine tonight in the form of coffee/creme-filled Oreos. 
Really dangerous. And I'm sorry about "shouting" in the title, but 
how can you NOT capitalize CHOCOLATE? <grin>)

Just say NO! I wonder if JK is a chocoholic?

I noticed this on the Yahoo signon page as I logged on -

     ilovechocolate2 Everybody loves chocolate!
     Members: 260
     Category: Chocolate 

(it was clickable, but I wouldn't want to lead anybody astray :)

Sigh, what's an advocate to do ...


ER





From ression at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 11 23:35:10 2003
From: ression at hotmail.com (ER <ression@hotmail.com>)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 23:35:10 -0000
Subject: CHOCOLATE
In-Reply-To: <9663605A72@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>
Message-ID: <b2c1be+5ph1@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Rachel Bray <bray.262 at o...> 
wrote:

> ... the taste of chocolate is a sensual pleasure in itself, 
> existing in the same world as sex... For myself, I can 
> enjoy the wicked pleasure of chocolate... entirely by 
> myself. Furtiveness makes it better. 
> Dr. Ruth Westheimer 
> 

Okay, okay, I know when I'm beat! And all v. funny, BTW :))

ER




From timregan at microsoft.com  Tue Feb 11 23:46:33 2003
From: timregan at microsoft.com (Tim Regan <timregan@microsoft.com>)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 23:46:33 -0000
Subject: Arithmancy (was Undecidability (was reasoning))
In-Reply-To: <b2brnl+rf0u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b2c20p+9h9s@eGroups.com>

--- Barb wrote:
> Actually, it's pretty easy to find out what she SHOULD be 
learning.  
> Just Google "Arithmancy" and you'll get a slew of sites explaining 
> what this is.  The short answer: numerology, basically, largely to 
> do with birthdates and a little with names.  

I knew a little about this kind of arithmancy, from reading 
Tolstoy's "War and Peace". In it one of the characters (Pierre) is 
given a revelation just after he joins the Masons: 
"Writing the words L'Empereur Napoleon in numbers, it appears that 
the sum of them is 666, and that Napoleon therefore the beast 
foretold in the Apocalypse. Moreover, by applying the same system to 
the words quarante-deux, which was the term allowed to the beast 
that "spoke great things and blasphemies," the same number 666 was 
obtained; from which it followed that the limit fixed for Napoleon's 
power had come in the year 1812 when the French emperor was forty-
two." 

I'd assumed, for the reasons you give, that the Arithmancy of 
Hogwarts and the Arithmancy of our Muggle World must be different. 
And I doubt we'll find out much about the Hogwarts version since, as 
you point out, JKR doesn't seem to have much of a mathematical bent.

There was also a lovely thread of arithmancy and related arts 
running through an audio book I just finished, Umberto 
Eco's "Foucault's Pendulum" (impossible to read - easy to listen 
to ;-) The main character is convinced he's decoded a secret 
document from The Knights Templars when his wife, far more 
effectively, deconstructs the document as a medieval shopping list!

Hermione is rational and cynical - the arithmancy she loves must be 
something else, please.


Cheers,


Dumbledad.


PS It turns out that Hermione has read Tolstoy too! In "Harry Potter 
and the Legend of the Golden Serpent" by Camille (available in 
Google's cache) we hear:

"Where Hermione, specify! You MUST have our entire itinerary already 
planned out down to the last second!" Hermione looked up from War 
and Peace, a manic grin on her face. 
"First off, the Gallows," she said reverently.

PPS I took the "War and Peace" quote from http://www.online-
literature.com/tolstoy/war_and_peace/ but if you do plan to read it 
(and I really recommend it, way more gripping and easy than its 
reputation suggests) I recommend the Luis and Aylmer Maude 
translation.





From timregan at microsoft.com  Tue Feb 11 23:53:58 2003
From: timregan at microsoft.com (Tim Regan <timregan@microsoft.com>)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 23:53:58 -0000
Subject: CHOCOLATE
In-Reply-To: <b2c1be+5ph1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b2c2em+dm0n@eGroups.com>

Hi All,

--- "ER" wrote
> Okay, okay, I know when I'm beat! 

No, no, let's not stop yet. 

Chocolate is also a homeopathic remedy:
   http://www.minimum.com/p7/engine/book.asp?n=1404
though, sadly, the dose will be way too low to actually taste.


Cheers,


Dumbledad




From lupinesque at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 12 00:13:27 2003
From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z <lupinesque@yahoo.com>)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 00:13:27 -0000
Subject: Arithmancy (was Undecidability (was reasoning))
In-Reply-To: <b2c20p+9h9s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b2c3j7+cfin@eGroups.com>

Dumbledad quoted:

> Moreover, by applying the same system to 
> the words quarante-deux, which was the term allowed to the beast 
> that "spoke great things and blasphemies," the same number 666 was 
> obtained; from which it followed that the limit fixed for 
Napoleon's 
> power had come in the year 1812 when the French emperor was forty-
> two." 

The brutal truth is at last exposed: The Hitchhiker's Guide to the 
Galaxy is in fact a Satanist's Guided Tour to the Apocalypse. 

Amy Z
who always suspected that at least one of Zaphod's heads was the 
Antichrist




From ression at hotmail.com  Wed Feb 12 00:23:26 2003
From: ression at hotmail.com (ER <ression@hotmail.com>)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 00:23:26 -0000
Subject: Undecidability (was reasoning)
In-Reply-To: <b2brnl+rf0u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b2c45u+ejks@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "psychic_serpent 
<psychic_serpent at y...>" <psychic_serpent at y...> wrote:
> 
> If JKR really thinks Arithmancy has anything to do with complex 
> calculations, that could explain why just about all of her Flints 
> have to do with problems with numbers (such as how many World Cups 
> there have been versus the year the first one was played and the 
> frequency of the Cup matches, which is a combination Flint between 
> GoF and Quidditch Through the Ages).
> 

I occasionally wonder why the pupils _aren't_ taught maths and 
English. Perhaps witches and wizards have little use for maths, but 
you might have thought that a good grasp of English would help with 
the three-foot essays.




From ression at hotmail.com  Wed Feb 12 00:26:58 2003
From: ression at hotmail.com (ER <ression@hotmail.com>)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 00:26:58 -0000
Subject: Undecidability (was reasoning)
In-Reply-To: <b2bl2n+a12m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b2c4ci+e509@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Tim Regan <timregan at m...>" 
<timregan at m...> wrote:

> --- "ER" wrote:
> can one introduce a new, self-evident, axiom to ZF that allows CH 
> to be decidable? 

Well, I can partly answer my own question here. Apparently, in 2000, 
H. Woodin added a new "plausible" axiom to ZF that allowed the 
Continuum Hypothesis to be shown false. And it seems that set-
theorists feel that this should be the case, which leaves Hermione 
and the Trolley Witch embroiled - eek! I wonder if Woodin knows what 
he has done? Doesn't mathematics stink.

>My understanding of G?del's Theorem is that your job would never be 
>finished. For any new theorem, you could extend the axioms to make 
>the theorem provable (the easy way is to add the theorem as an axiom 
>itself, but there may be ways that meet your "self-evident" criteria 
>too). But lurking around the corner is another theorem that you 
>cannot prove so you add axioms to fix that. But lurking around the 
>corner is another theorem that you cannot prove so you add axioms to 
>fix that. But lurking around the corner is another theorem that you 
>cannot prove so you add axioms to fix that. If I were Lemony Snicket 
>I'd keep this going for at least a page, but I'm not. G?del proved 
>that you must either go on forever adding axioms or add one that 
>contradicts an existing axiom rendering the system inconsistent.

Okay, I didn't know that. Sort of answers my question really, thank-
you. Although I do know (or rather, I read) that Godel proved that 
one of the undecidable things in an axiom system is the consistency 
of the axioms! So whether you'd always know you contradicted another 
axiom is a moot point. I think. Lemony Snicket is not a mathematician 
I take it? Too good a name I suppose ... the Lemony Snicket 
Postulate? The Lemony Snicket Lemma, nah, they'd never wear that ;)

>It is odd how G?del's Theorem hasn't had the impact you'd expect in 
>mathematics, outside the study of logic and foundations. 

Well, I suppose he torpedoed part of Hilbert's wish-list. And if he 
and Cohen closed down the chance of deciding the Continuum Hypothesis 
one way or the other, then you could say that he prevented 
mathematicians from knowing how many real numbers there are!

ER





From ression at hotmail.com  Wed Feb 12 00:36:49 2003
From: ression at hotmail.com (ER <ression@hotmail.com>)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 00:36:49 -0000
Subject: Arithmancy (was Undecidability (was reasoning))
In-Reply-To: <b2c3j7+cfin@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b2c4v1+ctq7@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Amy Z <lupinesque at y...>" 
<lupinesque at y...> wrote:
> Dumbledad quoted:
> 
> > Moreover, by applying the same system to 
> > the words quarante-deux, which was the term allowed to the beast 
> > that "spoke great things and blasphemies," the same number 666 
was 
> > obtained; from which it followed that the limit fixed for 
> Napoleon's 
> > power had come in the year 1812 when the French emperor was forty-
> > two." 
> 
> The brutal truth is at last exposed: The Hitchhiker's Guide to the 
> Galaxy is in fact a Satanist's Guided Tour to the Apocalypse. 
> 

Does it work on football scores? Next week's, ideally ...




From ression at hotmail.com  Wed Feb 12 00:42:33 2003
From: ression at hotmail.com (ER <ression@hotmail.com>)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 00:42:33 -0000
Subject: Arithmancy (was Undecidability (was reasoning))
In-Reply-To: <b2c20p+9h9s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b2c59p+5uah@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Tim Regan <timregan at m...>" 
<timregan at m...> wrote:
> 
> Hermione is rational and cynical - the arithmancy she loves must be 
> something else, please.
> 

Got-to-be. Didn't she have to write an essay on Why Muggles use 
Electricity or something? Perhaps there's substantial metaphysical 
content? And with a teacher's name of Vector, I think JK intended a 
bit more than wishy-washy astrology bunkum. Hermione isn't the sort 
to read a horoscope!

ER




From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 12 00:53:09 2003
From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent <psychic_serpent@yahoo.com>)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 00:53:09 -0000
Subject: Arithmancy (was Undecidability (was reasoning))
In-Reply-To: <b2c20p+9h9s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b2c5tl+3ihl@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Tim Regan <timregan at m...>" 
<timregan at m...> wrote:
> There was also a lovely thread of arithmancy and related arts 
> running through an audio book I just finished, Umberto 
> Eco's "Foucault's Pendulum" (impossible to read - easy to listen 
> to ;-) The main character is convinced he's decoded a secret 
> document from The Knights Templars when his wife, far more 
> effectively, deconstructs the document as a medieval shopping list!
 
Actually, there's a miscalculation in Foucault's Pendulum which 
effectively makes the entire exercise pointless.  Something having 
to do with the Knight's Templar happened in 1344 (don't ask me what--
I read this ages ago) and something happened in 1944, six-hundred 
years later.  The people sniffing out the conspiracy theory figured 
out that the real "big" happening is/was supposed to occur in the 
year 2000, which would wind up being 666 years after the seminal 
event in 1344.  (It frankly doesn't matter what any of these events 
is/was.)  

The only problem with this theory is that the year 2000 is not 666 
years after 1344.  It is 656 years after.  The year 2010 is 666 
years after 1344.  (So the characters' assertion that 2000 is the 
beginning of the new millenium is not the only mathematical error, 
although it is the most prominent one.)  Eco had a little OBO (off 
by one) problem when adding 666 to 1344 (or subtracting 666 from 
2000, depending on what his process was).  It's a fairly common 
error, but it really made me wonder whether book editors are so 
completely right-brained (as in JKR's editors, for instance) that 
they are completely incapable of recognizing mathematical errors 
when they occur.  I loved Eco's "Name of the Rose," which was a 
lovely mystery and an homage to Sherlock Holmes, but now I'm afraid 
to look at it again, for I might find on closer inspection that 
there are miscalculations of some sort in that one, too...

--Barb

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent
http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb




From nethilia at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 12 01:24:39 2003
From: nethilia at yahoo.com (Nethilia)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 17:24:39 -0800 (PST)
Subject: CHOCOLATE
In-Reply-To: <1044965837.396.54788.m12@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20030212012439.29175.qmail@web41113.mail.yahoo.com>

> ER writes:
>  >What is it with women and chocolate? I mean, it's
> disgusting stuff,
> too sweet, sticky, engenders circumferential
> expansion, gives you a
> sugar bonk followed by a fall to a lower level of
> sugar thingies (I'm
> no doctor :) that leaves you worse off.
> 
> One word: phenylethylamine. The "love chemical" in
> chocolate that makes you 
> feel warm, fuzzy, and nurtured. Works especially
> well on depression, 
> loneliness, PMS, and dementors. Yum.
> 
> (I'm having mine tonight in the form of
> coffee/creme-filled Oreos. Really 
> dangerous. And I'm sorry about "shouting" in the
> title, but how can you NOT 
> capitalize CHOCOLATE? <grin>)
> 
> bel

Chocolate helps me not. I'm allergic to cocoa. If I
even touch the stuff I break out in a rash. I have to
make do with white chocolate and hard candies. but I'm
so used to not eating the stuff (I stopped back when I
was 18 after putting two and two together) that I
don't miss it. 

--Neth munches on jelly beans instead. 

=====
http://www.cepheid.org/~marshmallow
Spenecial*com. Two girls. One Website. Total Chaos.

What kinda sacrifice involves pudding? ~ Andy, a close friend

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day
http://shopping.yahoo.com



From rvotaw at i-55.com  Wed Feb 12 03:05:56 2003
From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 21:05:56 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter]Butterbeer / Re: CHOCOLATE
References: <b2aqak+er11@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <009501c2d243$aa0b1510$a69ccdd1@RVotaw>

I was going to try making Butterbeer tonight, but after getting my cream soda, got home to find I didn't have any butterscotch topping after all.  So it'll have to wait until after I get to the store again.  However, a suggestion, at least in the U.S., IBC makes Cream Soda in an old fashioned glass bottle.  The coloring and everything is exactly as I pictured Butterbeer.  I haven't had cream soda for years, so I suppose that may be where I subconsciously got the image.

ER writes:

>>What is it with women and chocolate? I mean, it's disgusting stuff,
>> too sweet, sticky, engenders circumferential expansion, gives you a
>> sugar bonk followed by a fall to a lower level of sugar thingies 
>>(I'm no doctor :) that leaves you worse off.

Amy responded:

> Ah, but that's why you always keep at least a pound of chocolate 
>around.  To treat the low level of sugar thingies.

And would you believe, some idiot broke into the school last night and crashed the snack machine?  Not to worry, I had a bag of M & M's in the classroom for the low level sugar thingies.

Richelle


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pepsiboy71 at mac.com  Wed Feb 12 03:18:14 2003
From: pepsiboy71 at mac.com (Pepsiboy)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 22:18:14 -0500
Subject: Beta Needed
Message-ID: <BA6F2726.314B%pepsiboy71@mac.com>

Hello all,
 first off I hope I don't get a Howler, but I wanted to try.  A few weeks
ago, on the main HPFGU list, there was a lot of discussion about how Harry
has kept a lot of emotions inside, and when he does get a chance (the
hospital scene at the end of GOF), he's interrupted.  Anyway, I wrote a
short story relating to this and wanted someone to beta it.  Thank you.

-Pep




From rvotaw at i-55.com  Wed Feb 12 03:26:38 2003
From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 21:26:38 -0600
Subject: OotP Scholastic edition
Message-ID: <00b101c2d246$8e16fc90$a69ccdd1@RVotaw>

According to TLC, Scholastic is reporting that the U.S. edition of Order of the Phoenix will be 896 pages.  If you remember, I had a dream a few weeks ago in which it was 906 pages.  Not far off, huh? :)  

896 pages.  896 pages.  I keep saying that over and over.  And as TLC reported, it's funny that none of these articles commenting on how "expensive" OotP will be ($29.99) aren't mentioning that the price is being compared to books 1/2 its size!  Or less!  Compare it to a picture book, say "If you Give a Mouse a Cookie."  Hardcover $15.99 and it's, what, 24 pages?  32 at most.  Or an early chapter book, Junie B. First Grader, "Toothless Wonder."  I read all the Junie B. books to my first graders, 80-90 pages I'd guess.  $11.95.  That's 13 cents a page.  Order of the Phoenix?  3 cents a page.  What a bargain! :)

Richelle


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From dradamsapple at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 12 04:05:03 2003
From: dradamsapple at yahoo.com (dradamsapple <dradamsapple@yahoo.com>)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 04:05:03 -0000
Subject: OotP Scholastic edition
In-Reply-To: <00b101c2d246$8e16fc90$a69ccdd1@RVotaw>
Message-ID: <b2ch5f+d8i4@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Richelle Votaw" 
<rvotaw at i...> wrote:
>snip<

 And as TLC reported, it's funny that none of these articles 
commenting on how "expensive" OotP will be ($29.99) aren't mentioning 
that the price is being compared to books 1/2 its size!  Or less!  
Compare it to a picture book, say "If you Give a Mouse a Cookie."  
Hardcover $15.99 and it's, what, 24 pages?  32 at most.  Or an early 
chapter book, Junie B. First Grader, "Toothless Wonder."  I read all 
the Junie B. books to my first graders, 80-90 pages I'd guess.  
$11.95.  That's 13 cents a page.  Order of the Phoenix?  3 cents a 
page.  What a bargain! :)
> 
> Richelle

Richelle,

Good point.  I know that my two older kids (one in 6th, one in 4th) 
have book reports due almost every month; that means that I visit 
Borders at least twice a month, depending on when the assignments 
start.  And, at a prices of anywhere from $4.99 to $10.99 or so per 
book, (and the token books for my five year old so he doesn't feel 
left out), that adds up to  at least $20 a month.  Don't get me 
wrong, I'm not complaining. I know I can drag the kids to the 
library, but considering the fact that the books seem to get lost 
once they are done with them, I might as well buy them.  So, my point 
is, that all of us fan-atics out there (speaking for me, my kids, and 
nieces and nephews, and parents) will most certainly pay full price 
for the book because, its Harry Potter after all!!

Anna . . .
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From bray.262 at osu.edu  Wed Feb 12 11:00:30 2003
From: bray.262 at osu.edu (Rachel Bray)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 11:00:30 +0000 (EST5EDT)
Subject: Sirius sighting last night
Message-ID: <AAF5C62ACB@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>

Did anyone see Sirius last night in the Best in Show at 
Westminster?  He went by the code name "Josh" but...I knew 
it was him!

*stares at the blank expressions*

OK...maybe not.

*saunters off*

Rachel Bray
The Ohio State University
Fees & Deposits

"I had a stick of CareFree gum, but it didn't work. I felt
pretty good for a while, but as soon as the gum lost its
flavor, I was back to pondering my mortality."
  --Mitch Hedberg



From jenP_97 at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 12 16:24:23 2003
From: jenP_97 at yahoo.com (Jennifer Piersol <jenP_97@yahoo.com>)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 16:24:23 -0000
Subject: OotP Scholastic edition
In-Reply-To: <b2ch5f+d8i4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b2dsfn+ju29@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "dradamsapple
<dradamsapple at y...>" <dradamsapple at y...> wrote:

> Good point.  I know that my two older kids (one in 
> 6th, one in 4th) have book reports due almost every 
> month; that means that I visit Borders at least 
> twice a month, depending on when the assignments 
> start.  And, at a prices of anywhere from $4.99 to 
> $10.99 or so per book, (and the token books for my 
> five year old so he doesn't feel left out), that 
> adds up to  at least $20 a month.  Don't get me 
> wrong, I'm not complaining. I know I can drag the 
> kids to the library, but considering the fact that 
> the books seem to get lost once they are done with 
> them, I might as well buy them.  So, my point is, 
> that all of us fan-atics out there (speaking for 
> me, my kids, and nieces and nephews, and parents) 
> will most certainly pay full price for the book 
> because, its Harry Potter after all!!

> Anna . . .

I know, I'm weird, but this really scared me.  I 
have two young kids, and I never thought about how 
my habit of going to Borders (or other bookstore) to 
buy a book rather than the library was going to 
affect me later on.  My older daughter (who turns 
four in 26 days...) is already reading, and has read 
almost every preschooler-aged book in our house.  I 
can see her being as avid a reader as I was in 
elementary school.  The thing was, my dad would 
*rarely* buy me books.  I'd just check them out of 
my school library, and inevitably incurr a few 
dollars in fines every single time because after I 
finished reading them (usually in one or two days), 
I'd lose them in my pig sty of a room.  This does 
not bode well for me.  Not only will my daughter 
have to contend with our newly developed habit of 
buying books, but she's also a very messy, 
disorganized person.

I knew that I was going to be spending a lot of 
money to raise these kids, but darnit... I didn't 
realize I was going to have to pay for books, too!

;)

JenP, hoping *her* childhood books (bought with 
her own money) will interest her kids, too... 
that'd save about $1000.




From lupinesque at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 12 18:37:00 2003
From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z <lupinesque@yahoo.com>)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 18:37:00 -0000
Subject: Sirius sighting last night
In-Reply-To: <AAF5C62ACB@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>
Message-ID: <b2e48c+el47@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Rachel Bray <bray.262 at o...> 
wrote:
> Did anyone see Sirius last night in the Best in Show at 
> Westminster?  He went by the code name "Josh" but...I knew 
> it was him!

Got a link to a photo?

Amy Z




From bray.262 at osu.edu  Wed Feb 12 18:55:01 2003
From: bray.262 at osu.edu (Rachel <bray.262@osu.edu>)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 18:55:01 -0000
Subject: Sirius sighting last night
In-Reply-To: <b2e48c+el47@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b2e5a5+ia4v@eGroups.com>

> > Did anyone see Sirius last night in the Best in Show at 
> > Westminster?  He went by the code name "Josh" but...I knew 
> > it was him!
> 
> Got a link to a photo?
> 
> Amy Z


http://www.westminsterkennelclub.org/2003/newfdld_r.html

and click the "garden photo" or "group photo" under Darbydale's entry.




From kelleythompson at gbronline.com  Wed Feb 12 20:10:08 2003
From: kelleythompson at gbronline.com (Kelley <kelleythompson@gbronline.com>)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 20:10:08 -0000
Subject: Sirius sighting last night
In-Reply-To: <b2e5a5+ia4v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b2e9n0+nf9h@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Rachel <bray.262 at o...>" 
<bray.262 at o...> wrote:
> > > Did anyone see Sirius last night in the Best in Show at 
> > > Westminster?  He went by the code name "Josh" but...I knew 
> > > it was him!
> > 
> > Got a link to a photo?
> > 
> > Amy Z
> 
> 
> http://www.westminsterkennelclub.org/2003/newfdld_r.html
> 
> and click the "garden photo" or "group photo" under Darbydale's 
entry >>>>>>>

Awww, wah, that was *Padfoot*, not ~Sirius~....  ;-P  But, yeah, 
excellent example, Rachel!

--Kelley




From sophiamcl at hotmail.com  Wed Feb 12 20:29:13 2003
From: sophiamcl at hotmail.com (sophiamcl <sophiamcl@hotmail.com>)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 20:29:13 -0000
Subject: Dan at Evening Standard Awards
Message-ID: <b2eaqp+o801@eGroups.com>

Don't know where to put this comment--I usually hang out at the movie list, 
but this isn't strictly HP-movie related...
As you may know, Daniel Radcliffe presented an award at the ESA last 
Sunday Evening. I didn't see it (live in Sweden and don't get any British 
tv-channels) but I caught a clip of Daniel's contribution on danielradcliffe.org 
and can I just say, that kid impresses me like...like...like I don't know quite 
what, but like ANYTHING. This thirteen-year-old got up and gave a speech as 
though he'd done nothing but present awards  his whole life--confident, cool, 
no hemming and hawing, and with a  large dollop of stage-presence plus a 
brilliant dead-pan delivery of a broom-stick quip. WoW! Is this kid for real? 

Sophia




From rvotaw at i-55.com  Wed Feb 12 21:58:51 2003
From: rvotaw at i-55.com (rvotaw at i-55.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 15:58:51 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Dan at Evening Standard Awards
Message-ID: <17141444.1045087131443.JavaMail.root@webmail.i-55.com>

Sophia wrote:

<snip>

> and can I just say, that kid impresses me like...like...like I don't know 
> quite  what, but like ANYTHING. This thirteen-year-old got up and gave a 
> speech as though he'd done nothing but present awards his whole life--
> confident, cool, no hemming and hawing, and with a large dollop of stage-
> presence plus a brilliant dead-pan delivery of a broom-stick quip. WoW! Is 
> this kid for real?

Yep, I believe so.  And don't forget, he only said "Um" once.  Very impressive 
for a 13 year old. :) I'd say um more than that in the given situation. 

Of course, he doesn't schmooze (sp?) properly yet.  Which is also refreshing.  
I hear that before and after (you know, during the schmoozing time), he pretty 
much stood around with his parents and didn't talk to anyone.  Actually had 
celebrities asking for his autograph (I guess they didn't dare go home to their 
kids without it!).

Richelle

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From lupinesque at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 12 23:08:05 2003
From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z <lupinesque@yahoo.com>)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 23:08:05 -0000
Subject: Sirius sighting last night
In-Reply-To: <b2e5a5+ia4v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b2ek4l+er07@eGroups.com>

Rachel wrote:

> http://www.westminsterkennelclub.org/2003/newfdld_r.html
> 
> and click the "garden photo" or "group photo" under Darbydale's 
entry.

Oh yah, that's him all right.  Well spotted!

Amy





From belleps at october.com  Thu Feb 13 03:21:45 2003
From: belleps at october.com (Beth)
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 21:21:45 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] OotP Scholastic Edition
In-Reply-To: <1045054277.392.3402.m12@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20030212212005.00a20ec0@pop.cox-internet.com>

At 12:51 PM 2/12/03 +0000, Richelle wrote:
>According to TLC, Scholastic is reporting that the U.S. edition of Order 
>of the Phoenix will be 896 pages.  If you remember, I had a dream a few 
>weeks ago in which it was 906 pages.  Not far off, huh? :)

I just checked my hardback of CoS, and there are 10 pages of frontmatter 
before page 1. If that's true of OotP, the total number of pages will 
actually be 906.

<cue Twilight Zone music>

<grin>
bel 




From tahewitt at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 13 05:05:40 2003
From: tahewitt at yahoo.com (Tyler Hewitt <tahewitt@yahoo.com>)
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 05:05:40 -0000
Subject: Terry Jones in CoS film???
Message-ID: <b2f934+e9oq@eGroups.com>

My sister heard that Terry Jones (of Monty Python fame) is one of the moving 
portraits in the Chamber of Secrets film. Can anyone confirm this?

Thanks,
Tyler




From sophiamcl at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 13 07:34:21 2003
From: sophiamcl at hotmail.com (sophiamcl <sophiamcl@hotmail.com>)
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 07:34:21 -0000
Subject: Dan at Evening Standard Awards
In-Reply-To: <17141444.1045087131443.JavaMail.root@webmail.i-55.com>
Message-ID: <b2fhpt+7pso@eGroups.com>

Richelle wrote: 
> Of course, he doesn't schmooze (sp?) properly yet.  Which is also 
refreshing.  
> I hear that before and after (you know, during the schmoozing 
time), he pretty 
> much stood around with his parents and didn't talk to anyone.  

Me: (Although he did find time to have his picture taken with Heidi 
Klum a number of times...)

OK. What's schmoozing?

Sophia




From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Thu Feb 13 09:16:33 2003
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David <dfrankiswork@netscape.net>)
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 09:16:33 -0000
Subject: Hahahahahahaha!
Message-ID: <b2fnph+sof1@eGroups.com>

Angua quoted JKR (main list 52067)

> JKR: Um, I had the idea for Harry in 1990, so I've now been
writing about him for nine years. And by the time I finish the seven 
book, I'll be writing about him for thirteen years.

2 more books in a year?

David




From dozierwoman at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 13 12:28:37 2003
From: dozierwoman at hotmail.com (Lisa <dozierwoman@hotmail.com>)
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 12:28:37 -0000
Subject: OotP Scholastic edition
In-Reply-To: <00b101c2d246$8e16fc90$a69ccdd1@RVotaw>
Message-ID: <b2g31l+jthp@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Richelle Votaw" 
<rvotaw at i...> wrote:
> According to TLC, Scholastic is reporting that the U.S. edition of 
Order of the Phoenix will be 896 pages.  If you remember, I had a 
dream a few weeks ago in which it was 906 pages.  Not far off, 
huh? :)  
> 
> 896 pages.  896 pages.  I keep saying that over and over.  And as 
TLC reported, it's funny that none of these articles commenting on 
how "expensive" OotP will be ($29.99) aren't mentioning that the 
price is being compared to books 1/2 its size!  Or less!  Compare it 
to a picture book, say "If you Give a Mouse a Cookie."  Hardcover 
$15.99 and it's, what, 24 pages?  32 at most.  Or an early chapter 
book, Junie B. First Grader, "Toothless Wonder."  I read all the 
Junie B. books to my first graders, 80-90 pages I'd guess.  $11.95.  
That's 13 cents a page.  Order of the Phoenix?  3 cents a page.  What 
a bargain! :)
> 
> Richelle
> 

Ok, I'll come out of lurkdom for just a second. You can preorder OOP 
from WalMart.com for $17.97. Even with shipping, it is still cheaper 
than buying it for $30.

Lisa aka Lady Firenze
who is now returning to lurkdom

> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From cindysphinx at comcast.net  Thu Feb 13 14:39:28 2003
From: cindysphinx at comcast.net (Cindy C. <cindysphinx@comcast.net>)
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 14:39:28 -0000
Subject: Hahahahahahaha!
In-Reply-To: <b2fnph+sof1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b2gan0+hh2d@eGroups.com>

David:

> JKR: Um, I had the idea for Harry in 1990, so I've now been
> writing about him for nine years. And by the time I finish the 
seven 
> book, I'll be writing about him for thirteen years.
> 
> 2 more books in a year?


Yeah.  Dog years.  :-D

Cindy




From john at queerasjohn.com  Thu Feb 13 14:44:02 2003
From: john at queerasjohn.com (Queer as John)
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 14:44:02 +0000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Hahahahahahaha!
In-Reply-To: <b2gan0+hh2d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <BA715FB2.787B%john@queerasjohn.com>

David wrote:

>> 2 more books in a year?

Whence Cindy quoth:

> Yeah.  Dog years.  :-D

Perhaps she's channelling Sirius? Is this a clue to Sirius' importance in
future books? *runs to main list to make a canon point about this*

--John

______________________________________

Queer as John || john at queerasjohn.com

AIM, YM & LJ @ QueerAsJohn || www.queerasjohn.com

"It's raining John! Hallelujah!"
______________________________________




From alexpie at aol.com  Thu Feb 13 16:23:20 2003
From: alexpie at aol.com (alexpie at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 11:23:20 EST
Subject: Sirius Sighting 
Message-ID: <1dd.28c3c2c.2b7d2078@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/13/03 7:45:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com writes:

> Did anyone see Sirius last night in the Best in Show at 
> >>Westminster?  He went by the code name "Josh" but...I knew 
> >>it was him

Yes, yes, I saw him and thought the same thing. I think he needs to be signed 
immediately, as he personifies exactly how I think of Sirius.  Charm, looks, 
yet with a potential darker side!
Ba


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From urbana at charter.net  Thu Feb 13 18:06:19 2003
From: urbana at charter.net (Anne <urbana@charter.net>)
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 18:06:19 -0000
Subject: Hahahahahahaha!
In-Reply-To: <BA715FB2.787B%john@queerasjohn.com>
Message-ID: <b2gmqr+dpoa@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Queer as John <john at q...> 
wrote:
> David wrote:
> 
> >> 2 more books in a year?
> 
> Whence Cindy quoth:
> 
> > Yeah.  Dog years.  :-D
> 
> Perhaps she's channelling Sirius? Is this a clue to Sirius' 
importance in
> future books? *runs to main list to make a canon point about this*
> 
> --John

Omigod, at the rate JKR's going, by the time Book 7 comes out, Daniel 
Radcliffe really will *be* the 28-year-old accountant that one movie 
critic accused him of looking like in some of the CoS promo shots... 
Well, why not?? Lots of 20-somethings play teens on TV ;-)


Anne U
(apologizing for movie-talk on this list... slapping own hand)





From lupinesque at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 13 18:11:03 2003
From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z <lupinesque@yahoo.com>)
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 18:11:03 -0000
Subject: Dan at Evening Standard Awards
In-Reply-To: <b2fhpt+7pso@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b2gn3n+bcjc@eGroups.com>

Sophia wrote:
 
> OK. What's schmoozing?

Idle chatter, as in standing around with a bunch of other honorees 
and coming up with something to say while you nibble on your hors 
d'oeuvres.  Sometimes chatter that appears idle but is actually a 
finely honed professional skill, as in schmoozing with the higher-ups 
at the company cocktail party.

Amy Z
your online source for Yiddish terminology since 2000




From rvotaw at i-55.com  Fri Feb 14 00:36:53 2003
From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw)
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 18:36:53 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: OotP Scholastic edition/ books for children
References: <b2dsfn+ju29@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <004d01c2d3c1$2c7e2a90$88a3cdd1@RVotaw>

At 12:51 PM 2/12/03 +0000, Richelle wrote:
>>According to TLC, Scholastic is reporting that the U.S. edition of Order 
>>of the Phoenix will be 896 pages.  If you remember, I had a dream a few 
>>weeks ago in which it was 906 pages.  Not far off, huh? :)

Bel replied:

>I just checked my hardback of CoS, and there are 10 pages of frontmatter 
>before page 1. If that's true of OotP, the total number of pages will 
>actually be 906.
><cue Twilight Zone music>

Okay, *that* would be spooky!

JenP writes:

> I knew that I was going to be spending a lot of 
> money to raise these kids, but darnit... I didn't 
> realize I was going to have to pay for books, too!

As an educator, let me take this opportunity to jump on my soap box.  Spare no expense, buy your children every book they look remotely interested in. :)  Still, there are ways to get around paying top dollar in a bookstore.  Most schools, at least public schools in the U.S., offer discounted books through one of the mail order companies.  Scholastic is behind all of it, under the names Scholastic (specific name varies by grade level), Trumpet, Troll, and maybe a couple of others.  I do Scholastic for my classroom and for myself.  I actually got the paperbacks of Quidditch Through the Ages and Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find them for 95 cents each.  I bought four of each.  Yes, I'm obsessed.  Anyway, there are always books starting at 95 cents, and loads at 2, 3, or 4 dollars.  So keep an eye out, or in the future, ask your child's teacher (they do have these for as low as preschool).

Richelle


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From rvotaw at i-55.com  Fri Feb 14 00:43:54 2003
From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw)
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 18:43:54 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Dan at Evening Standard Awards
References: <b2fhpt+7pso@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <005901c2d3c2$273201a0$88a3cdd1@RVotaw>

Sophia wrote:

> Although he did find time to have his picture taken with Heidi 
> Klum a number of times...)

Did you hear the story behind that one?  She was at his table, and when Dan was introduced the guy said he thought he'd seen him arrive on a broomstick, but then he realized that no, it was Heidi Klum instead. :) So then, of course, everyone had to have a picture of them together.

Sophia asked:

> OK. What's schmoozing?

Fortunately, Amy already handled this one.  I'm terrible at definitions, Amy did a much better job than I'd have done!

Richelle


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From jenP_97 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 14 02:57:08 2003
From: jenP_97 at yahoo.com (Jennifer Piersol <jenP_97@yahoo.com>)
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 02:57:08 -0000
Subject: OotP Scholastic edition/ books for children
In-Reply-To: <004d01c2d3c1$2c7e2a90$88a3cdd1@RVotaw>
Message-ID: <b2hlu4+l4n6@eGroups.com>

Richelle wrote:

> As an educator, let me take this opportunity to 
> jump on my soap box.  Spare no expense, buy your 
> children every book they look remotely interested 
> in. :)  

No worries.  I can't stop myself from buying 
*myself* every book I look remotely interested in. 
;)  As a former substitute teacher and part-time 
teacher of the functionally illiterate, I have no 
qualms about buying the books.  I just have two 
problems.  We live on a community college 
professor's salary (and nothing else), and we live 
in a 1100 square foot house with no more bookshelf 
room.  Especially around here, I know how much it 
means to help your child learn to love reading.

JenP, just noticing that Ginger is adlibbing "You 
are so Beautiful" by Joe Cocker... talk about 
strange.




From catlady at wicca.net  Fri Feb 14 03:05:21 2003
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston) <catlady@wicca.net>)
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 03:05:21 -0000
Subject: question about JKR interview
Message-ID: <b2hmdh+hjv5@eGroups.com>

I'm way, way behind on the main list, but I got to where Penny and 
Audra were quoting a JKR interview from October 1999. Apparently that 
is the interview that included: "will Harry ever turn into a shape 
changer like his father?", a Q&A that I have often sought in vain, 
when trying to write replies to people who ask what Harry's Animagus 
form will be. So I went to the Lexicon, Sources section, and the only 
October 1999 interview listed was National Press Club, and no link 
given. So does anyone know where I can find a transcript of that 
interview?




From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 14 04:31:56 2003
From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent <psychic_serpent@yahoo.com>)
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 04:31:56 -0000
Subject: question about JKR interview
In-Reply-To: <b2hmdh+hjv5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b2hrfs+bqko@eGroups.com>

When I went to this interview

http://www.scholastic.com/harrypotter/author/transcript2.htm

the only Animagus question I found was this one:

Q. If you were Animagus, what kind of animal would you be? 

A. I'd like to be an otter ? that's my favourite animal. It would be 
depressing if I turned out to be a slug or something.


Which is rather amusing, you have to admit.  I do recall someone 
saying that she denied that she would make Harry an Animagus, but 
whether there's a transcript of that available, I don't know.  I 
liked that she made Harry's dad a Chaser, not a Seeker (that 
question is in the above interview), as it drew a distinction 
between the two, but now that she's allowed the filmmakers to muck 
around with that and make James a Seeker in the first film, who 
knows?  She may have said at one point that Harry wouldn't be an 
Animagus, but she has three more books to change her mind about 
that...

--Barb

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince 
Winston) <catlady at w...>" <catlady at w...> wrote:
> I'm way, way behind on the main list, but I got to where Penny and 
> Audra were quoting a JKR interview from October 1999. Apparently 
that 
> is the interview that included: "will Harry ever turn into a shape 
> changer like his father?", a Q&A that I have often sought in vain, 
> when trying to write replies to people who ask what Harry's 
Animagus 
> form will be. So I went to the Lexicon, Sources section, and the 
only 
> October 1999 interview listed was National Press Club, and no link 
> given. So does anyone know where I can find a transcript of that 
> interview?




From catlady at wicca.net  Fri Feb 14 05:32:27 2003
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston) <catlady@wicca.net>)
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 05:32:27 -0000
Subject: question about JKR interview
In-Reply-To: <b2hrfs+bqko@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b2hv1b+sc08@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "psychic_serpent 
<psychic_serpent at y...>" <psychic_serpent at y...> wrote:
> When I went to this interview
> http://www.scholastic.com/harrypotter/author/transcript2.htm
> the only Animagus question I found was this one:
> Q. If you were Animagus, what kind of animal would you be? 
> A. I'd like to be an otter ? that's my favourite animal. It would
> be  depressing if I turned out to be a slug or something.

She made a very similar statement in another interview:
http://www.geocities.com/aberforths_goat/October_2000_Live_Chat_Americ
a_Online.htm
Q: Does the animal one turns into as an Animagi reflect your 
personality?
JKR: Very well deduced, Narri! I personally would like to think 
that  I would transform into an otter, which is my favorite animal. 
Imagine how horrible it would be if I turned out to be a cockroach!

I looked up those two quotes on The Goat Pad so often that I finally 
saved them in a .txt file that I can just copy into my post whenever
I want to insist that JKR has confirmed in interviews that the 
Animagus doesn't get to choose his/her animal form, but instead the 
animal form is a reflection of his/her personality.
> 
> 
> I do recall someone saying that she denied that she would make
> Harry an Animagus, but whether there's a transcript of that 
> available, I don't know.  

Apparently Angua (it was Angua, not Audra; I apologise) has 
posted that transcript in 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/52067  

I hope Lexicon Steve and Aberforth's Goat Mike are catching these 
newly revealed transcriptions ... 

> I liked that she made Harry's dad a Chaser, not a Seeker (that 
> question is in the above interview), as it drew a distinction 
> between the two, but now that she's allowed the filmmakers to muck 
> around with that and make James a Seeker in the first film, who 
> knows?  

I don't mind that JKR let the movie people change James's Quidditch 
position from what she said in the interview, because I was not 
pleased with what she said in the interview: *I* want James to have 
been a Seeker. 





From dradamsapple at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 14 06:05:43 2003
From: dradamsapple at yahoo.com (dradamsapple <dradamsapple@yahoo.com>)
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 06:05:43 -0000
Subject: Dan at Evening Standard Awards
In-Reply-To: <b2eaqp+o801@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b2i0vn+hrp7@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "sophiamcl <sophiamcl at h...>" 
<sophiamcl at h...> wrote:
> Don't know where to put this comment--I usually hang out at the 
movie list, 
> but this isn't strictly HP-movie related...
> As you may know, Daniel Radcliffe presented an award at the ESA 
last 
> Sunday Evening. I didn't see it (live in Sweden and don't get any 
British 
> tv-channels) but I caught a clip of Daniel's contribution on 
danielradcliffe.org 
>.
>snip<
> Sophia

Er, Sophia, or anyone,

I've tried looking at "danielradcliffe.org" and just got a site that 
registers domain names.
Can anyone provide a link to the pics that are mentioned above?
I'd love to see Dan and his broo ... er, Heidi
Thanks,
Anna . . .




From lupinesque at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 14 10:40:47 2003
From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z <lupinesque@yahoo.com>)
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 10:40:47 -0000
Subject: Dan at Evening Standard Awards
In-Reply-To: <b2i0vn+hrp7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b2ih3f+ldgc@eGroups.com>

Anna wrote:

>Er, Sophia, or anyone,
> 
> I've tried looking at "danielradcliffe.org" and just got a site 
that 
> registers domain names.
> Can anyone provide a link to the pics that are mentioned above?

It's actually danradcliffe.org.

Who's Heidi Klum?

Amy




From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Fri Feb 14 11:25:20 2003
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David <dfrankiswork@netscape.net>)
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 11:25:20 -0000
Subject: Dan at Evening Standard Awards
In-Reply-To: <b2ih3f+ldgc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b2ijn0+d6jt@eGroups.com>

Amy wrote:

> Who's Heidi Klum?

Yay for Amy!  Ignorance is good.

I deduce she is a very thin person with sticking up hair.  Or a 
wooden actress.

David




From sophiamcl at hotmail.com  Fri Feb 14 13:53:20 2003
From: sophiamcl at hotmail.com (sophiamcl <sophiamcl@hotmail.com>)
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 13:53:20 -0000
Subject: Dan at Evening Standard Awards
In-Reply-To: <b2ijn0+d6jt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b2iscg+fc8d@eGroups.com>

David wrote: (on Heidi Klum)

> I deduce she is a very thin person with sticking up hair.  Or a 
> wooden actress.

I don't know about the sticking up hair, but she's a tall, skinny, blonde, 
bronzed supermodel. If any of you watch Spin city she did a couple of 
appearances on it as herself and had a brief affair with Flaherty, if that helps 
anybody out. The photos of Dan and Heidi are available on danradcliffe.com
(Oh, and sorry for giving the wrong URL to that other Dan-site with the clip, 
it's danradcliffe.org) 

Richelle wrote:
> Although he did find time to have his picture taken with Heidi 
> Klum a number of times...)
Did you hear the story behind that one? She was at his table, and when Dan 
was introduced the guy said he thought he'd seen him arrive on a broomstick, 
but then he realized that no, it was Heidi Klum instead. :) So then, of course,
everyone had to have a picture of them together.

Me:
There's a clip of that introduction too, on danradcliffe.com (this time the URL is 
correct first time around, I think.) (Somewhat embarrassed to confess to 
keeping track of this stuff...)


Sophia




From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 14 15:10:39 2003
From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent <psychic_serpent@yahoo.com>)
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 15:10:39 -0000
Subject: Dan at Evening Standard Awards
In-Reply-To: <b2iscg+fc8d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b2j0tf+off1@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "sophiamcl <sophiamcl at h...>" 
<sophiamcl at h...> wrote:
> David wrote: (on Heidi Klum)
> 
> > I deduce she is a very thin person with sticking up hair.  Or a 
> > wooden actress.
> 
> I don't know about the sticking up hair, but she's a tall, skinny, 
> blonde, bronzed supermodel. If any of you watch Spin city she did 
> a couple of appearances on it as herself and had a brief affair 
> with Flaherty, if that helps anybody out.  

Right.  I had never heard of her before she did the Spin City stuff, 
even though in the script everybody was saying things like, "Wow!  
You're going out with Heidi Klum!" as though anybody knew who that 
was.  That's why I thought at first that she was made up--that it 
was an actress (the word "wooden" doesn't begin to address how stiff 
she is) playing a super-model character named "Heidi Klum."  Imagine 
my surprise when I discovered that that was actually her name--that 
she was basically playing herself.  Badly.  Although it's quite 
possible that she is technically fluent in English (native German 
speaker) she always sounded like she was learning her lines 
phonetically.  (There should be a database somewhere of models, 
actors and musicians who have been shown to be incapable of doing a 
believable job of portraying themselves.  There's just something 
very weird about this.)  Main claim to fame seems to be her 
Victoria's Secret work.  They took every opportunity on SC to show 
her in just her underwear, as this is her chief talent.  But then, 
in this day and age, if you can put on your resume, "People like to 
look at me in my underwear," you probably don't need to be able to 
do anything else... ;)


--Barb

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent
http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb




From ken.kuller at veritas.com  Fri Feb 14 17:58:46 2003
From: ken.kuller at veritas.com (Kenneth M. Kuller <ken.kuller@veritas.com>)
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 17:58:46 -0000
Subject: MoRe: Sirius sighting last night
In-Reply-To: <b2e48c+el47@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b2jaom+chlg@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Amy Z <lupinesque at y...>" 
<lupinesque at y...> wrote:
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Rachel Bray <bray.262 at o...> 
> wrote:
> > Did anyone see Sirius last night in the Best in Show at 
> > Westminster?  He went by the code name "Josh" but...I knew 
> > it was him!
> 
> Got a link to a photo?
> 
> Amy Z


Padfoot has been spotted again, I'm sure:

? ? http://www.longshipnewfoundlands.com/bogie1.jpg   and
? ? http://www.missionmtnnewfs.com/picts/midnightlogs.jpg

Ken Kuller




From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 14 16:10:40 2003
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd <jkusalavagemd@yahoo.com>)
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 16:10:40 -0000
Subject: Do they celebrate Valentine's Day outside the U.S.?
Message-ID: <b2j4e0+75o8@eGroups.com>

Does anyone know whether Valentine's Day is celebrated anywhere else 
other than the U.S.?  A Russian friend told me that is was not 
celebrated in Russia, but March 8th, International Woman's Day, was a 
big holiday there.  I was wondering about other countries.

Haggridd





From sushi at societyhappens.com  Fri Feb 14 19:20:23 2003
From: sushi at societyhappens.com (Sushi)
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 13:20:23 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Do they celebrate Valentine's Day
  outside the U.S.?
In-Reply-To: <b2j4e0+75o8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030214131903.00b408f0@mail.societyhappens.com>

At 04:10 PM 2/14/03 +0000, you wrote:
>Does anyone know whether Valentine's Day is celebrated anywhere else
>other than the U.S.?  A Russian friend told me that is was not
>celebrated in Russia, but March 8th, International Woman's Day, was a
>big holiday there.  I was wondering about other countries.
>
>Haggridd

         I know it's celebrated in the UK, although those little boxes of 
Valentine's cards you get at the grocery store seem to be an American 
thing.  (They might be in Canada, too, but I'm not sure.)  I don't know 
about the rest of the world - then, I barely recognise it myself, much to 
my husband's chagrin.

Sushi, not the most romantic of individuals


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From rvotaw at i-55.com  Fri Feb 14 19:16:33 2003
From: rvotaw at i-55.com (rvotaw at i-55.com)
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 13:16:33 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Do they celebrate Valentine's Day outside the U.S.?
Message-ID: <13718774.1045250193217.JavaMail.root@webmail.i-55.com>

Haggridd wrote:

> Does anyone know whether Valentine's Day is celebrated anywhere else <BR>
> other than the U.S.? A Russian friend told me that is was not <BR>
> celebrated in Russia, but March 8th, International Woman's Day, was a <BR>
> big holiday there. I was wondering about other countries.<BR>

Well, I should imagine it's celebrated to some extint in the U.K., though I'm 
sure others on the list can confirm that.  Since Lockhart made such a big deal 
of it in CoS, what with the singing dwarfs and all, I imagined it was 
celebrated in the U.K.

As for other countries, I heard something on the radio yesterday, soldiers were 
going into shops in Iran and making them take down anything with hearts or 
otherwise related to Valentine's.  Apparently the people were trying to 
celebrate it, but the government views it as a "decadent Western holiday."  
According to the news report anyway.

Richelle

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From macloudt at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Feb 14 19:33:04 2003
From: macloudt at yahoo.co.uk (Mary Ann <macloudt@yahoo.co.uk>)
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 19:33:04 -0000
Subject: Birthday Greetings!
Message-ID: <b2jg9g+sifm@eGroups.com>

:::::throws heart-shaped confetti around the room and places a double-
sized cake with pink icing on the table:::::

We have two Valentine birthdays to celebrate today!  Our Valentine 
babies are Brandon ( bak42 at netzero.net ) and Lena aka CJK ( 
lena at warpedcore.net ).  Greetings can be sent to the List or to the 
above email addies.

Have a fantastic day, Brandon and Lena, and I hope you got some nifty 
Valentine stuff as well!

Mary Ann
(who's been married too long to have a romantic Valentine's Day ;) )




From sevothtarte at gmx.net  Fri Feb 14 19:51:15 2003
From: sevothtarte at gmx.net (Torsten)
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 20:51:15 +0100
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Do they celebrate Valentine's Day outside the U.S.?
In-Reply-To: <b2j4e0+75o8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <MHLGWQKXRKJ32XNMQNC8835ZB0A8B8.3e4d48b3@tk>

Haggridd:
>Does anyone know whether Valentine's Day is celebrated anywhere else 
>other than the U.S.?  A Russian friend told me that is was not 
>celebrated in Russia, but March 8th, International Woman's Day, was a 
>big holiday there.  I was wondering about other countries.

Here (Germany) it is celebrated. Came into fashion a few years ago, with a little help 
from flower and chocolate companies. ^_~ Not really an established custom, but if 
you're male you'd better play safe and get her something ... ^_~

-Torsten






From abigailnus at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 14 20:02:33 2003
From: abigailnus at yahoo.com (abigailnus <abigailnus@yahoo.com>)
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 20:02:33 -0000
Subject: Do they celebrate Valentine's Day outside the U.S.?
In-Reply-To: <b2j4e0+75o8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b2ji0p+9tvb@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Haggridd <jkusalavagemd at y...>" <jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:
> Does anyone know whether Valentine's Day is celebrated anywhere else 
> other than the U.S.?  A Russian friend told me that is was not 
> celebrated in Russia, but March 8th, International Woman's Day, was a 
> big holiday there.  I was wondering about other countries.
> 
> Haggridd

Here in Israel, people recognise Valentine's Day and celebrate it 
- to the extent that you might go out with your bf/gf or buy them 
a present.  I haven't seen much of the merchandise - heart-shaped 
chocolate boxes, etc., but I'm sure that'll come with time.  It's 
actually funny because there's a date on the Jewish calendar 
(sometime around July or August - it moves around because the 
Jewish calendar is lunar) that's supposed to be "Love Day" for 
reasons that have never been made clear to me.  So we actually 
have two Valentine's Days.

The way I see it, Valentine's Day is infectious.  It's a made-up 
holiday to begin with, right?  But in every country that becomes 
aware of its existance (and with the proliferation of American media 
that's a lot of countries) people feel obligated to celebrate it.  Even 
if they personally feel that it's a meaningless holiday with absolutely 
no tie to their cultural heritage,  their SO might feel unloved, or worse, 
they could be seen as a bitter single person.

It's actually a rather clever scheme, when you think about it.

Abigail
Non-bitter single person (I hope)





From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 14 20:05:23 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve <bboy_mn@yahoo.com>)
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 20:05:23 -0000
Subject: Dan at Evening Standard Awards -Video????
In-Reply-To: <b2eaqp+o801@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b2ji63+ga5q@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "sophiamcl <sophiamcl at h...>"
<sophiamcl at h...> wrote:

> As you may know, Daniel Radcliffe presented an award at the ESA last 
> Sunday Evening. 

> ... I caught a clip of Daniel's contribution on danielradcliffe.org 
>
> ...edited...
> 
> Sophia

bboy_mn:

I haven't been able to find that video anywhere; at DANradcliffe.org
the [Video] menu item seems to be shut off. 

Search other webstites and found Dan's introduction on video, and saw
photo's of his presentation, but can't find the actuall video of Dan
speaking.


Can anyone offer any help.

bboy_mn





From siskiou at earthlink.net  Fri Feb 14 22:46:30 2003
From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne)
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 14:46:30 -0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Do they celebrate Valentine's Day outside the U.S.?
In-Reply-To: <b2ji0p+9tvb@eGroups.com>
References: <b2ji0p+9tvb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <61149573214.20030214144630@earthlink.net>



Hi,

Friday, February 14, 2003, 12:02:33 PM, abigailnus at yahoo.com wrote:


> The way I see it, Valentine's Day is infectious.  It's a made-up 
> holiday to begin with, right? 

No, I don't think it's made up.

IIRC, it has it's origin in Roman history.
Something about soldiers being forbidden to get married,
thinking a married soldier would rather stay home, instead of
fight.

A priest named Valentine defied the emperor's order and secretly
married young couples. He was punished for his crime and
later became the patron saint of lovers.

I grew up in Germany, and there Valentine's day used to be a
thing for couples, or young lovers.

Here in the US my daughter used to have to write Valentine's
for her whole class. Didn't matter if the kids actually
liked each other 8)

-- 
Best regards,
 Susanne                           mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net




From sevothtarte at gmx.net  Fri Feb 14 20:35:00 2003
From: sevothtarte at gmx.net (Torsten)
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 21:35:00 +0100
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Do they celebrate Valentine's Day outside the U.S.?
In-Reply-To: <b2ji0p+9tvb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <QKA6KH07ZWXVPJTSCQK655472VRRM.3e4d52f4@tk>

Abigail:
>It's 
>actually funny because there's a date on the Jewish calendar 
>(sometime around July or August - it moves around because the 
>Jewish calendar is lunar) that's supposed to be "Love Day" for 
>reasons that have never been made clear to me.  So we actually 
>have two Valentine's Days.

Is this Love Day celebrated? Like Valentine's Day or in a different way or not at all?

-Torsten






From kelleythompson at gbronline.com  Sat Feb 15 00:04:36 2003
From: kelleythompson at gbronline.com (Kelley <kelleythompson@gbronline.com>)
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 00:04:36 -0000
Subject: Do they celebrate Valentine's Day outside the U.S.?
In-Reply-To: <61149573214.20030214144630@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <b2k06k+k56l@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Susanne <siskiou at e...> wrote:
> No, I don't think it's made up.
> 
> IIRC, it has it's origin in Roman history.
> Something about soldiers being forbidden to get married,
> thinking a married soldier would rather stay home, instead of
> fight.
> 
> A priest named Valentine defied the emperor's order and secretly
> married young couples. He was punished for his crime and
> later became the patron saint of lovers. >>>>>>>>

Hm, interesting coincidence here, I just came across this post on 
another board:  

From: Kurt 
Subject: Valentine's Day 

Can anyone attest to the veracity of this? Always the cynic, I have
observed the following regarding this dubious day:

As early as 400 B.C. young Romans engaged in a rite of passage to
their god Lupercus. Names of teenage women were placed in a box and
randomly drawn; thus was born the Roman Hook-up. The two young lovers
were companions in the fullest sense for one year, until the next
lottery. Some 800 years later early Catholic fathers had had enough:
they were determined to put an end to the pagan practice, thus 
supplanting the diety Lupercus. Who then a better candidate than the 
martyred bishop Valentine?

Flashback to 270 A.D. Emperor Claudius was fuming. He believed married
men made poor soldiers, so he forbade marriage. That way, soldiers
would owe their loyalty to Rome, not home.

Enter Valentine, bishop of Interamna. Valentine practiced the 
forbidden sacrament of matrimony in secrecy. Well, the Emperor had a 
sense of dignity about it all, so upon discovery of Valentine's 
treachery, he attempted to convert him to Roman deism. Remember, this 
a good half century before Constantine and all that business at the 
Milvian bridge, so Christianity was still consider a pagan, and oft 
persecuted, sect. Well, true to his convictions, Valentine refused, 
and he was subsequently clubbed, stoned, and then beheaded. 

Well fret not, because as we know, the worm soon turned, and these
'pleasantries' would of course soon be reciprocated... in full by
Ignatius and Torquemada, to name but a few. But I digress...

One more little sidebar to this is that, according to legend, while
awaiting execution, Valentine fell in love with the blind daughter
of one his jailers and miraculously restored her sight. Perhaps you'll
recognize the salutation of his farewell letter to his young love:
'From your Valentine.' Sound familiar?? Methinks Hallmark doth indeed
owe some big royalties - call Johnny Cochrane.

To the Catholic fathers, the ideal usurper of the popular Lupercus
was thereafter Valentine, so much so that in 496 Pope Gelasius seized
on the opportunity to outlaw the mid-February Lupercan festival 
altogether.  Once again, the sad gift of religion proves to be 
tolerance for intolerance.  Anyway, one popular practice endured, 
that being the drawing of names from a box in which all young singles 
participated. Much to the dismay of enthusiastic Middle Agers, the 
slip they drew was not the name of their soon-to-be significant 
other, but a prescription that they emulate the life of St. 
Valentine. Pretty clever, huh?

That being said, won't You be mine?? :)

*************

Ha, love the last line there.  No idea of the accuracy of what he 
stated; I just thought it was a rather intriguing post.

--Kelley




From rvotaw at i-55.com  Sat Feb 15 01:04:14 2003
From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw)
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 19:04:14 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Dan at Evening Standard Awards -Video????
References: <b2ji63+ga5q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <005e01c2d48e$28aa01f0$b19ecdd1@RVotaw>

bboy_mn wrote:

> Search other webstites and found Dan's introduction on video, and saw
> photo's of his presentation, but can't find the actuall video of Dan
> speaking.
> Can anyone offer any help.

Try going to www.danradcliffe.org, then go to the news page. Scroll a ways down to the section "Dan at Evening Standards Awards," posted February 6th.  There are a couple of links there to the video clip, that's where I watched it last week.

Richelle


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From urbana at charter.net  Sat Feb 15 01:16:32 2003
From: urbana at charter.net (Anne <urbana@charter.net>)
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 01:16:32 -0000
Subject: MoRe: Sirius sighting last night
In-Reply-To: <b2jaom+chlg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b2k4dg+pdj7@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Kenneth M. Kuller 
<ken.kuller at v...>" <ken.kuller at v...> wrote:
> Padfoot has been spotted again, I'm sure:
> 
> ? ? http://www.missionmtnnewfs.com/picts/midnightlogs.jpg


Now *THIS* is definitely PADFOOT!!! Calling the POA casting 
director!! I hope this pooch is available - he's perfect!!

Anne U
(would say PURRRFECT but that would have to be Crookshanks)





From gabolamx at yahoo.com.mx  Sat Feb 15 02:20:06 2003
From: gabolamx at yahoo.com.mx (Gabriela <gabolamx@yahoo.com.mx>)
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 02:20:06 -0000
Subject: Do they celebrate Valentine's Day outside the U.S.?
In-Reply-To: <b2j4e0+75o8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b2k84m+9bg2@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Haggridd 
<jkusalavagemd at y...>" <jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:
> Does anyone know whether Valentine's Day is celebrated anywhere 
else 
> other than the U.S.?  A Russian friend told me that is was not 
> celebrated in Russia, but March 8th, International Woman's Day, was 
a 
> big holiday there.  I was wondering about other countries.
> 
> Haggridd


Hi, a mexican lurker here; we do celebrate Valentine's Day. Today I 
received A LOT of heart-shaped chocolates and candies and some roses 
from my third grade students. I gave them guess what? Harry Potter 
Valentine's cards (which they loved). We have a lot of Valentine's 
merchandise, especially in the north part of the country. 

Gabriela
(who hopes her English is not terrible)




From selah_1977 at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 15 04:56:22 2003
From: selah_1977 at yahoo.com (Ebony <selah_1977@yahoo.com>)
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 04:56:22 -0000
Subject: The Pumpkin Has Landed!:  News for H/Hers and All Fandom Friends
Message-ID: <b2kh9m+oo71@eGroups.com>

The Pumpkin Has Landed!
PumpkinPie.Org Announces Its Valentine's Day Grand Opening

Harry/Hermione shippers of the fandom have long had no place to call 
their own. The founders of pumpkinpie.org are proud to present a 
website as an attempt to fill this void -- while being mindful to 
remain a friendly place that all members of the fandom will feel 
comfortable visiting. 

We see ourselves as a seaport where kindler and gentler breezes 
linger, a happy and friendly isle in the midst of the oft-turbulent 
fanon sea. We actively encourage our shipmates and others to explore 
and participate in the rest of the fandom. 

Here you will find a haven for H/Hr shippers, a safe harbor that 
holds a directory to the best in H/Hr fanfiction, fanart, and pumpkin 
products, as well as intelligent discussion of all issues pertaining 
to their favorite pairing. We hope that they will not stop here 
permanently but rather move on to the rest of the fandom, returning 
here whenever they are in the need of a bit of H/Hr revelry or 
contemplation. 

Additionally, we wish to give H/Hr shippers incentives and outlets 
for service. Many on our ship work quietly behind the scenes in every 
corner of the fandom. Thus, we have created the Pumpkin Awards, where 
shipmates can nominate non-moderators to be featured every month. We 
also have designated an outreach project for each month of the 
calendar year, where H/H shippers and our friends may contribute 
time, money, and other resources to real world, twenty- first century 
humanitarian issues such as the fights against hunger, breast cancer, 
world AIDS, and our disappearing rainforest. 

This site is for you, shipmates, and by extension, for the entire 
Harry Potter fandom. The pumpkin-minded do so much for the fandom as 
a whole... it is time that we have a place to celebrate ourselves and 
to say "well done." 

It is our hope to build a sense of community amongst Harry/Hermione 
shippers ? so that they will know that they are not alone. 

Schnomps, love, and pumpkin pie always! 

Ebony AKA AngieJ, for pumpkinpie.org
(from our page, "Vision Statement:  The Pumpkin Philosophy")





From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Feb 15 05:16:42 2003
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston) <catlady@wicca.net>)
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 05:16:42 -0000
Subject: Birthday Greetings! / Valentine's Day / Lupercalia
Message-ID: <b2kifq+l5a8@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Mary Ann <macloudt at y...>" 
<macloudt at y...> wrote:
> :::::throws heart-shaped confetti around the room and places a
> double- sized cake with pink icing on the table:::::
> 
> We have two Valentine birthdays to celebrate today!  Our Valentine 
> babies are Brandon ( bak42 at n... ) and Lena aka CJK ( 
> lena at w... ).  Greetings can be sent to the List or to the 
> above email addies.

Happy birthdays, Brandon (why have you been away from chat so long?) 
and Lena!

> Mary Ann
> (who's been married too long to have a romantic Valentine's Day ;)

But you can still eat chocolate!

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Haggridd 
<jkusalavagemd at y...>" <jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:
> Does anyone know whether Valentine's Day is celebrated anywhere 
> else other than the U.S.?  A Russian friend told me that is was not 
> celebrated in Russia, but March 8th, International Woman's Day, was
> a big holiday there.  I was wondering about other countries.

My wall calendar with pictures of White Tigers has the name of each 
month in four languages. I recognize English and French and guess the 
other two are German and Spanish. On it, today's little box is 
labelled Valentine's Day and San-Valentin and Dia del Amor y Amistad.

I've read that Valentine's Day was introduced to Japan by candy 
companies during the American occupation. Unable (in those days) to 
persuade Japanese men to give candy (or to do anything else) for 
women, they changed their advertising and it soon became socially 
compulsory for every working woman to give chocolate to each one of 
her male co-workers (bosses, etc) on Valentine's Day. Later, the 
advertisers were able to introduce a holiday in March named White Day 
on which men give white candy to each woman who gave them chocolate 
for Valentine's Day.

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Kelley <kelleythompson at g...>" 
<kelleythompson at g...> wrote:
> Hm, interesting coincidence here, I just came across this post on 
> another board:  
> 
> From: Kurt 
> Subject: Valentine's Day 
> 
> Can anyone attest to the veracity of this? Always the cynic, I have
> observed the following regarding this dubious day:
> 
> As early as 400 B.C. young Romans engaged in a rite of passage to
> their god Lupercus. Names of teenage women were placed in a box and
> randomly drawn; thus was born the Roman Hook-up. The two young 
> lovers were companions in the fullest sense for one year, until the
> next lottery. 

The drawing of the name of someone who would be your 'true love' 
until the next lottery wasn't part of Lupercalia, but part of 
'courtly love' in the Middle Ages, practised by rich aristocrats who 
were members of a Valentine Society that was described by Joseph 
Campbell somewhere in volume IV of THE MASKS OF GOD. 

The drawing of the name of someone who would be your lover for the 
next couple of hours is sometimes said to have been part of the 
celebration of Lupercalia, and it probably *was*, or else why would 
the priests have felt the need to make young people celebrate 
Valentine's Day by drawing names from a box .... names of a saint 
whom one should strive to emulate! (not necessarily st. Valentine)

For sure, the celebration of Lupercalia included young men who were 
priests of Lupercus running naked through the streets whipping women 
with goatskin straps. It was believed that any woman who was whipped 
would get pregnant, so women who were trying to get pregnant would 
strip off their clothes to encourage the whippers. I can't imagine 
why anyone thought that Lupercus was a goat-god, possibly Pan, when 
the *name* clearly refers to *wolves*. 

Mars and Venus (a famous pair of adulterous lovers) both were 
connected to wolves ... Mars had originally been an agricultural god 
and his priests dressed as wolves to ask the local wolves not to eat 
the Roman sheep (eat the Etruscan sheep instead) and he became the 
god of war because the earliest Roman wars were sheep raids ... Venus 
not only sent the wolf bitch who nursed her descendents Romulus and 
Remus, but Roman slang called prostitutes 'wolves' and the red light 
district was called The Wolf Den.

A girl I knew made cards of red construction paper with a rubberstamp 
of a wolf and the writing "To the Romans, February 14 was Lupercalia, 
the Feast of Wolves" and on the inside, they said: "Will you be my 
wolf?"




From dradamsapple at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 15 06:17:50 2003
From: dradamsapple at yahoo.com (dradamsapple <dradamsapple@yahoo.com>)
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 06:17:50 -0000
Subject: Dan at Evening Standard Awards
In-Reply-To: <b2ijn0+d6jt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b2km2e+4qjc@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "David <dfrankiswork at n...>" 
<dfrankiswork at n...> wrote:
> Amy wrote:
> 
> > Who's Heidi Klum?
> 
> Yay for Amy!  Ignorance is good.
> 
> I deduce she is a very thin person with sticking up hair.  Or a 
> wooden actress.
> 
> David


HA!
David, imagery is wonderful too!
You make me laugh!! 

Anna  . . .(wiping the tears of hysterics away!)




From dradamsapple at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 15 07:00:56 2003
From: dradamsapple at yahoo.com (dradamsapple <dradamsapple@yahoo.com>)
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 07:00:56 -0000
Subject: Dan at Evening Standard Awards
In-Reply-To: <b2fhpt+7pso@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b2koj8+4jvf@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "sophiamcl <sophiamcl at h...>" 
<sophiamcl at h...> wrote:
>
> Me: (Although he did find time to have his picture taken with Heidi 
> Klum a number of times...)
> 
>
> 
> Sophia


Hallelulia!  (yes, I know that's misplled)

I finally got to SEE the video of Dan at the Standard Awards!
(thanks to those who helped us all find the link)

Now, does anyone else get the impression that as Dan was standing
there next to Miss Heidi, that he didn't know *where* to look?

Ah! puberty!  
Glad we only go through it once!!

Anna . . .




From dradamsapple at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 15 07:14:26 2003
From: dradamsapple at yahoo.com (dradamsapple <dradamsapple@yahoo.com>)
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 07:14:26 -0000
Subject: Do they celebrate Valentine's Day outside the U.S.?
In-Reply-To: <MHLGWQKXRKJ32XNMQNC8835ZB0A8B8.3e4d48b3@tk>
Message-ID: <b2kpci+sbuh@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Torsten <sevothtarte at g...> 
wrote:
> Haggridd:
> >Does anyone know whether Valentine's Day is celebrated anywhere 
else 
> >other than the U.S.? 


> Here (Germany) it is celebrated. Came into fashion a few years ago, 
with a little help 
> from flower and chocolate companies. ^_~ Not really an established 
custom, but if 
> you're male you'd better play safe and get her something ... ^_~
> 
> -Torsten


Funny,

I was in the gift shop at work today (I work in a hospital) when one 
of the nurses started complaining about all the green in there. 
(guess what holiday is next?).   Turns out she is actually from 
Ireland, and been in this country a few years, and we talked about 
St. Patty's Day.  I asked her if it was as big in Ireland as it is 
here (I'm in Boston).  She told me that it never was but just 
recently started becoming a great excuse for acting up!  Kind of 
like "Mardi Gras", she said.
Oh, well, here's to seeing green for the next month!
(but hey, all the valentines candy will probably be 50% off tomorrow!!
what a bargain!)

Anna  . . .(who had too many Fritos on my ride home tonite and can't 
get to sleep)




From lupinesque at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 15 09:16:22 2003
From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z <lupinesque@yahoo.com>)
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 09:16:22 -0000
Subject: The Pumpkin Has Landed!:  News for H/Hers and All Fandom Friends
In-Reply-To: <b2kh9m+oo71@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b2l0h6+10v8c@eGroups.com>

Ebony wrote:

>The Pumpkin has landed!

Cool.

Why pumpkin pie?

Amy
who prefers chocolate cream, but won't hold that against H/H




From abigailnus at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 15 09:16:43 2003
From: abigailnus at yahoo.com (abigailnus <abigailnus@yahoo.com>)
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 09:16:43 -0000
Subject: Do they celebrate Valentine's Day outside the U.S.?
In-Reply-To: <QKA6KH07ZWXVPJTSCQK655472VRRM.3e4d52f4@tk>
Message-ID: <b2l0hr+8ps4@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Torsten <sevothtarte at g...> wrote:
> Abigail:
> >It's 
> >actually funny because there's a date on the Jewish calendar 
> >(sometime around July or August - it moves around because the 
> >Jewish calendar is lunar) that's supposed to be "Love Day" for 
> >reasons that have never been made clear to me.  So we actually 
> >have two Valentine's Days.
> 
> Is this Love Day celebrated? Like Valentine's Day or in a different way or not at all?

It's celebrated in much the same way as Valentine's - if you have 
an SO you take them out or give them a present and if you don't 
you try to pretend that it's a completely ordinary day. :-)

Thanks, by the way, to Susanne, Kelley and Catlady, for all that 
stuff about the history of Valentine's Day.  I always assumed it 
was just a Hallmark holiday.  Doesn't make it any less contagious, 
though.

Abigail





From macloudt at yahoo.co.uk  Sat Feb 15 10:17:53 2003
From: macloudt at yahoo.co.uk (Mary Ann <macloudt@yahoo.co.uk>)
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 10:17:53 -0000
Subject: Birthday Greetings!
Message-ID: <b2l44h+11ffm@eGroups.com>

:::::the room is filled with party decorations.  Dizzy Elf is sitting 
on the floor blowing up another balloon, her lips a pale shade of 
blue:::::

*pant, pant*  Egad, I'd better take a break from these balloons or 
I'll pass out.  So let's send out today's birthday greetings.

Ah, it's another double birthday today!  Today's greetings go to Riet 
( strijkg at xs4all.nl ) and Miss Norbert von Ridgeback ( 
wim.fok at consunet.nl ).  Greetings can be sent to the List or to the 
above email addies.

At the risk of making a total twit of myself...

:::::clears throat and shifts into Second Language Mode:::::

Er zijn er twee jarig, hoera!  Hoera!  ;)

Mary Ann
(who probably spelled that entire line wrong, but the sentiment was 
there)




From karnasaur at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 15 12:28:53 2003
From: karnasaur at yahoo.com (Kristjan Arnason)
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 04:28:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Do they celebrate Valentine's Day outside the U.S.?
In-Reply-To: <1045310156.1237.66760.m12@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20030215122853.21802.qmail@web10403.mail.yahoo.com>

Hi,

I'm in Korea right now.  Valentine's Day is huge in
Korea and Japan.  And there's more!  A Korean based
company called Lotte, which is the main candy maker
for the two countries (I've lived in both) has also
managed to create another unofficial holiday as well. 
Feb. 14 is Valentine's Day, and women give chocolate
to men (and students of both sexes give chocolate to
their beloved teacher, it seems.  I got a lot of candy
yesterday).  On March 14th in both countries the men
reciprocate on "White Day," and give chocolate to
women.  How they managed to pull this off is a mystery
to me.

Strange.

And I'm Canadian and we certainly observe it there.

K

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day
http://shopping.yahoo.com



From corsa808 at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 15 15:15:32 2003
From: corsa808 at yahoo.com (infiniT <corsa808@yahoo.com>)
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 15:15:32 -0000
Subject: Heidi Klum (was: Dan at awards)
Message-ID: <b2llik+q4as@eGroups.com>

I didn't know Heidi Klum was a supermodel, but I DO know she is (or 
was) a tennis player. Not a very good one, tho. I don't follow tennis 
and don't feel like checking on standings (especially for her) but 
that's why she's popular, cuz she sure isn't much of an athlete; but 
I'll bet she helps sell loads of magazines 
*ahem*SportsIllustrated*ahem*. 

(it was the same reasoning behind Dennis Rodman......he wasn't THAT 
good at basketball but he managed to get himself LOTS of attention!!!)

not really holding any kind of opinion on heidi klum,
t




From strijkg at xs4all.nl  Sat Feb 15 15:26:53 2003
From: strijkg at xs4all.nl (Riet Strijker)
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 16:26:53 +0100 (West-Europa (standaardtijd))
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Birthday Greetings!
References: <b2l44h+11ffm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3E4E5C3D.000001.01384@srijkkwa-6hzvzb>

Thank you, thank you...
The Dutch phrase was completely correct!
Bedankt,
Riet
(a double Dutch birthday??)
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
Date: zaterdag 15 februari 2003 11:17:56
To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Birthday Greetings!
 
:::::the room is filled with party decorations.  Dizzy Elf is sitting 
on the floor blowing up another balloon, her lips a pale shade of 
blue:::::

*pant, pant*  Egad, I'd better take a break from these balloons or 
I'll pass out.  So let's send out today's birthday greetings.

Ah, it's another double birthday today!  Today's greetings go to Riet 
( strijkg at xs4all.nl ) and Miss Norbert von Ridgeback ( 
wim.fok at consunet.nl ).  Greetings can be sent to the List or to the 
above email addies.

At the risk of making a total twit of myself...

:::::clears throat and shifts into Second Language Mode:::::

Er zijn er twee jarig, hoera!  Hoera!  ;)

Mary Ann
(who probably spelled that entire line wrong, but the sentiment was 
there)


Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From sevothtarte at gmx.net  Sat Feb 15 16:33:36 2003
From: sevothtarte at gmx.net (Torsten)
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 17:33:36 +0100
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Do they celebrate Valentine's Day outside the U.S.?
In-Reply-To: <20030215122853.21802.qmail@web10403.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <E04XEBJGB07YW3W4Y4YCBGBVSQNK54.3e4e6be0@tk>

 Kristjan:

>On March 14th in both countries the men
>reciprocate on "White Day," and give chocolate to
>women.  How they managed to pull this off is a mystery
>to me.

I thought on White Day you only give chocolate to those who gave you something for 
Valentine's Day, or can you chose anyone?

-Torsten





From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 15 19:19:38 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve <bboy_mn@yahoo.com>)
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 19:19:38 -0000
Subject: Dan at Evening Standard Awards (VIDEO)
In-Reply-To: <b2eaqp+o801@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b2m3sb+ks06@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "sophiamcl <sophiamcl at h...>"
<sophiamcl at h...> wrote:

> ... Daniel Radcliffe presented an award at the ESA last 
> Sunday Evening.

- inserted - - - - - - - - - -
See Dan at-
danradcliffe.org 
You have to scroll way down on the News page to find the video link.
- - - - - - - - - - - -- - - - 

> ..., that kid impresses me like...like...like I don't know quite 
> what, but like ANYTHING. This thirteen-year-old got up and gave a 
> speech as  though he'd done nothing but present awards  his whole 
> life--confident, cool,  no hemming and hawing, and with a  large 
> dollop of stage-presence plus a  brilliant dead-pan delivery of a 
> broom-stick quip. WoW! Is this kid for real? 
> 
> Sophia

bboy_mn:

Well, I finally found the clip and after a great deal of wrangling and
cutting and pasting between browsers, I got to see it. 

(side note: unfortunatley danradcliffe.org is a little JavaScript
heavy for it's own good, and doesn't work well with Mozilla browser,
and for me anyway, the video links didn't want to play. So, in
Internet Explorer, I did a shift-left_click opening the video link in
a new window [right click has been disabled] then cut and paste the
URL into Mozilla/Netscape and it downloaded just fine. I add this in
case any one else has trouble, mayby my experience will help.)

Back to Dan-
Yes, he was definitely calm, cool, and collect although I suspect he
rehearsed and probably had his speech on a tele-prompter, that doesn't
matter, he was still very professional in his delivery.

I though he was especially cool when you consider the introduction he
was given. For those of you who didn't see the intro video, the person
doing the introducing made a fun, funny, but very embarassing joke at
Dan's expense. I don't remember it exactly but it went something like
this-

Announcer: "When I saw Dan Radcliffe, I thought he had arrived on a
broomstick, but no, he had just spotted Heidi Klum."

Big laugh, cut to Dan who is sitting across the table from super-model
Heidi Klum, he's laughing but obviously very embarassed. In case you
don't get it, it an erection joke, which would be enough to completely
rattle any boy that age. 

When you're 13 you really don't want people making a public spectacle
out of your alleged erections. Any other boy would have fallen to
piece completely. But Dan got up on stage and gave a cool professional
delivery.

I've always been very impressed with Dan's easy in front of the
camera. Always very mature but at the same time light-hearted and full
loving. It's going to be very interesting to see where this boy goes
in life.

One last thing, the woman who won the award seemed a lot more thrilled
and flustered by getting to kiss Daniel, than she was by actually have
won the award.

Just a few thoughts.

bboy_mn





From smotgreg at hotmail.com  Sat Feb 15 19:34:17 2003
From: smotgreg at hotmail.com (sandon96 <smotgreg@hotmail.com>)
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 19:34:17 -0000
Subject: Do they celebrate Valentine's Day outside the U.S.?
In-Reply-To: <20030215122853.21802.qmail@web10403.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <b2m4np+e3p0@eGroups.com>

I read in the news this morning (The Register Guard - Eugene, Oregon, 
USA) about Hindu nationalists raiding shops in Bombay and burning cards 
and gifts for Valentine's day. "Save Indian Culture!" the activists 
were reportedly shouting, and it made me sad to think that what's seen 
as a fun and friendly holiday here is so wrong in another's country's 
eyes.  When I taught school (second grade) we would try to celebrate or 
at least learn about other countries' holidays and celebrations - - and 
in retrospect I suppose we really didn't do much justice to truly 
appreciating another culture, but we all had fun eating different foods 
and saying hello in other other languages.  Perhaps it was a small 
exercise in tolerance and a view outside of the fishbowl many of us 
swim in.  

Anyway, I got a blender from my husband for Valentine's. Romantic, eh? 
Chocolate wasn't even hidden inside. Sigh -

By the way, my mother in law sent us a raclette.  Any suggestions on 
how to use it other than a sausage/cheese/bread combination.





From pottersangel76 at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 15 20:14:23 2003
From: pottersangel76 at yahoo.com (Alyssa Bilano)
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 12:14:23 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Beta Needed
In-Reply-To: <BA6F2726.314B%pepsiboy71@mac.com>
Message-ID: <20030215201423.18334.qmail@web21306.mail.yahoo.com>


Sure.Why not? Send it to me as soon as possible.
Sincerly,
Riddlegirl
 Pepsiboy <pepsiboy71 at mac.com> wrote:Hello all,
first off I hope I don't get a Howler, but I wanted to try.  A few weeks
ago, on the main HPFGU list, there was a lot of discussion about how Harry
has kept a lot of emotions inside, and when he does get a chance (the
hospital scene at the end of GOF), he's interrupted.  Anyway, I wrote a
short story relating to this and wanted someone to beta it.  Thank you.

-Pep


Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
var lrec_target="_top";var lrec_URL = new Array();lrec_URL[1] = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.2891370.4259126.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1707544108:HM/A=1430287/R=0/id=flashurl/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405";var link="javascript:LRECopenWindow(1)";var lrec_flashfile = 'http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/intl_library_of_poetry/yahoo_300x250.swf?clickTAG='+link+'';var lrec_altURL = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.2891370.4259126.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1707544108:HM/A=1430287/R=1/id=altimgurl/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405";var lrec_altimg = "http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/intl_library_of_poetry/yahoo_300x250.gif";var lrec_width = 300;var lrec_height = 250;
________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________

Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the group's Admin Files!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/

Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying!

Is your message...
An announcement of merchandise, news etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements.
Movie-related? Send it to HPFGU-Movie.
Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups.
None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter.
Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com

Unsubscribing? Email HPFGU-OTChatter-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
____________________________________________________________ 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 
S


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From kelleythompson at gbronline.com  Sat Feb 15 21:17:05 2003
From: kelleythompson at gbronline.com (Kelley <kelleythompson@gbronline.com>)
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 21:17:05 -0000
Subject: Heidi Klum (was: Dan at awards)
In-Reply-To: <b2llik+q4as@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b2maoh+e9fk@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "infiniT <corsa808 at y...>" 
<corsa808 at y...> wrote:
> I didn't know Heidi Klum was a supermodel, but I DO know she is (or 
> was) a tennis player. Not a very good one, tho. I don't follow 
tennis and don't feel like checking on standings (especially for her) 
but that's why she's popular, cuz she sure isn't much of an athlete; 
but I'll bet she helps sell loads of magazines 
> *ahem*SportsIllustrated*ahem*. 
> 
> (it was the same reasoning behind Dennis Rodman......he wasn't THAT 
> good at basketball but he managed to get himself LOTS of 
attention!!!)
> 
> not really holding any kind of opinion on heidi klum,
> t >>>>>>>

Actually, I believe you're thinking of Anna Kournikova; she's the not 
so great but beautiful tennis player.  I've never known of Heidi Klum 
as anything other than a model...

--Kelley




From heidit at netbox.com  Sat Feb 15 21:02:41 2003
From: heidit at netbox.com (Heidi Tandy)
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 17:02:41 -0400
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dying and age-appropriate fiction
Message-ID: <mailman.33.1576049043.5361.hpfgu-otchatter@archive.hpfgu.org>

Tyler wrote:
be using. The ageing of charecters in 'real time'
seems pretty unique to the HPbooks. I can't think of
any other children's book series where the charecters
age from story to story. Most stay the same age for as
long as the author cares to write them. 
I'm wondering if JKR is purposefully moving the
reading level of her books up as well as the series
progresses.  Age appropriateness as far as language,
vocabulary, etc. seems about the same in the books so
far (I'm not an expert at this, however). What is
changing is the complexity of the larger story. Plots
are more complicated, more and more charecters are
introduced, ideas of 'good' and 'bad' actions and
charecters are often slipping into gray areas. My
feeling is that JKR may be purposefully writing her
books for older readers thematically, while
technically leaving them accessable to younger
readers. *****

There is one similarly-maturing series I can think of, which we've discussed here from time to time. Laura Ingalls Wilder's Little House series, which was semiautobiographical. 

Penny can speak more about the technical aspects of the books, but they definitely mature in terms of plot and style from the first to the last. I read them all when I was 9 or 10 but the romance attributes of the latter books were aspects I didn't get into until I reread them 2-3 years later. 

But Little House is more an American tradition for reading. The Enid Blyton books, like Mallory Towers, have the characters age, but the writing style never changes and it's not until the last of the 7 books that there's a noticable change in the plot maturity. 

Heidi Tandy
Follow me to FictionAlley - Harry Potter fanfics of all shapes, sizes and ships - 7 sickles an ounce
http://www.FictionAlley.org. 



From belleps at october.com  Sat Feb 15 21:36:01 2003
From: belleps at october.com (Beth)
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 15:36:01 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Sirius sighting of a different kind
In-Reply-To: <1045310156.1237.66760.m12@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20030215153318.00a1a880@pop.cox-internet.com>

http://www.belgas3fi.8m.net/Tisco.htm

Interesting. This link above shows more what I was thinking of for Padfoot. 
Not so broad-faced or heavy-boned as a Newfoundland. We'll have to see how 
they cast the part in the movie.  ;-}

bel




From annemehr at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 15 22:05:47 2003
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr <annemehr@yahoo.com>)
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 22:05:47 -0000
Subject: Literary Criticism for Dummies?
Message-ID: <b2mdjr+43cg@eGroups.com>

Can anybody recommend a good introductory book on methods of literary 
criticism?

On the main list, I keep seeing references to things like 
"Stanislovskian method," "affective fallacy," and, just today, 
"somebody's triangle" which you were supposed to recognize from intro. 
to lit. class.

Well, dang it, I had advanced *and* AP English in high school (way 
back in the late '70's, though), and then took some English electives 
in college, but the most we ever did was discuss themes and 
foreshadowing and stuff like that.

So what's a HPfGU discussion junkie to do?  Maybe some of you current 
students had a good textbook I could order?

Thanks much!
Annemehr




From anise_leinen at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 15 23:08:24 2003
From: anise_leinen at yahoo.com (anise_leinen <anise_leinen@yahoo.com>)
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 23:08:24 -0000
Subject: Advice about attending Nimbus 2003, that means you, PLEASE, I'M DESPERATE HERE!
Message-ID: <b2mh98+pib1@eGroups.com>

Ahem. Hopefully that got some people's attention. :)

My seminar idea was accepted for Nimbus, and they want me to speak. 
HOwever. It turns out that it's just going to be a really... 
difficult time of year to get away, esp. all the way to Orlando. 
Financially, schedule-wise, and in every other way. So I DESPERATELY 
NEED SOME ADVICE and input, since they need to know for sure by the 
end of the month (I told them to put me on the schedule for now.)

A.)Is anyone else going from vaguely on my route, so I could split 
driving? That would really make a difference. It would be so much 
cheaper to take my own car. Anyone from Nashville, Chattanooga, even 
Knoxville, Atlanta (c'mon, there HAS to be someone going from 
Atlanta,) Birmingham, AL, the Florida panhandle... basically, the 
region between Nashville and Orlando. 

B.) Who else is planning to go, and what is your age 
range/interests/etc? If it's going to be mostly 14 year olds or 
something, I'm not sure how much they'd get out of my seminar idea. 

C.) If I do go, I will definitely document as much of the proceedings 
on DV as I can (I'm primarily a filmmaker and editor.) Would this be 
of interest to anyone? 

Advice! Comments! Questions! Snide remarks! Anything

Anise





From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 16 00:00:24 2003
From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent <psychic_serpent@yahoo.com>)
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 00:00:24 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dying and age-appropriate fiction
Message-ID: <b2mkao+4h50@eGroups.com>


> Tyler wrote:
> be using. The ageing of charecters in 'real time'
> seems pretty unique to the HPbooks. I can't think of
> any other children's book series where the charecters
> age from story to story. Most stay the same age for as
> long as the author cares to write them. 
[snip]
--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Heidi Tandy" <heidit at n...> 
wrote:
> There is one similarly-maturing series I can think of, which we've 
discussed here from time to time. Laura Ingalls Wilder's Little 
House series, which was semiautobiographical. 
> 
> Penny can speak more about the technical aspects of the books, but 
they definitely mature in terms of plot and style from the first to 
the last. I read them all when I was 9 or 10 but the romance 
attributes of the latter books were aspects I didn't get into until 
I reread them 2-3 years later. 
> 
> But Little House is more an American tradition for reading. The 
> Enid Blyton books, like Mallory Towers, have the characters age, 
> but the writing style never changes and it's not until the last of 
> the 7 books that there's a noticable change in the plot maturity. 


Actually, there are loads of books where the child protagonists 
age.  The characters in Madeleine L'Engle's time travel series 
(starting with "A Wrinkle in Time") age up considerably (Meg starts 
as 12 and in "A Swiftly Tilting Planet" she's a grown woman, married 
and expecting a baby).   The characters in Jane Langton's books 
about the Hall family (The Diamond in the Window, The Swing in the 
Summerhouse, etc.) age in every book; Eddy and Eleanor Hall start 
off at about 8 and 10 and are both in high school by the time of the 
fifth book ("The Time Bike").  I hope Langton writes more (although 
her chief protagonist in the series is now Eddy and Eleanor's young 
stepsister, Georgie Dorian, who has so far aged from about four 
years old to ten or eleven).  In non-fantasy books children age, 
too, such as K.M. Peyton's "Flambards" books and her books about a 
horse-loving girl named Ruth who eventually becomes pregnant and 
marries a piano prodigy/ex-con named Pennington.  And then there are 
the Anne of Green Gables books, by L.M. Montgomery.

My son also loved the "Indian in the Cupboard" books, and the 
protagonist in those books ages as well.  In fact, the only two 
series in which the children DON'T age that I can think of are 
things that are clearly just being pumped out to make money: the 
insipid Magic Treehouse books and the Boxcar Children books (which 
are written by a slew of authors now, as I said, just to make money).

My kids, however, have noticed that children aging is the exception 
and not the rule in the comic pages of our newspaper.  They've 
noticed that only the kids in For Better or Worse, Jump Start and 
Baby Blues are growing older (although they're growing very slowly 
in Baby Blues).  I didn't point out to them that people age in 
Doonesbury too, as they're not really interested in that strip yet.  
In Rex Morgan, M.D. people seem to be aging in geological time... 
Weren't Rex and June engaged for about fifty years? <g>

--Barb

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent
http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb

Come on over to the Psychic Serpent group to read the Valentine's 
Challenge fics and Chapter 12 of The Lost Generation--Lily and James 
get married! 






From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Feb 16 00:09:48 2003
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston) <catlady@wicca.net>)
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 00:09:48 -0000
Subject: Birthday Greetings!
In-Reply-To: <b2l44h+11ffm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b2mksc+2va9@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Mary Ann <macloudt at y...>" 
<macloudt at y...> wrote:
> :::::the room is filled with party decorations.  Dizzy Elf is 
> sitting  on the floor blowing up another balloon, her lips a pale 
> shade of blue:::::

Would an Engorgement Charm (Engorgio!) blow up a balloon or just 
make it a LARGER limp colored rubber bag? 

> Ah, it's another double birthday today!  Today's greetings go to
> Riet ( strijkg at x... ) and Miss Norbert von Ridgeback ( 
> wim.fok at c... ).  Greetings can be sent to the List or to the 
> above email addies.

Happy Birthdays, Riet and wim.fok!




From heidit at netbox.com  Sun Feb 16 01:05:24 2003
From: heidit at netbox.com (heiditandy)
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 20:05:24 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Advice about attending Nimbus 2003, that means you, PLEASE, I'M DESPERATE HERE!
In-Reply-To: <b2mh98+pib1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <008c01c2d557$7cf139d0$0301a8c0@Frodo>

Anise asked:
> 
> A.)Is anyone else going from vaguely on my route, so I could split 
> driving? That would really make a difference. It would be so much 
> cheaper to take my own car. Anyone from Nashville, Chattanooga, even 
> Knoxville, Atlanta (c'mon, there HAS to be someone going from 
> Atlanta,) Birmingham, AL, the Florida panhandle... basically, the 
> region between Nashville and Orlando. 
Just making sure Anise and everyone else knows about the ride share
board that we have set up over at
http://pub35.ezboard.com/fhporlandofrm12 - Anise, while this list might
get some good replies, you should also post about it over there. 

> 
> B.) Who else is planning to go, and what is your age 
> range/interests/etc? If it's going to be mostly 14 year olds or 
> something, I'm not sure how much they'd get out of my seminar idea. 

At this point, our registrants are coming in at over 80% over 18. And
nobody under 14 is able to register for the formal programming (although
if parents/guardians are in tow, they can enjoy the movies, the gallery
and game/library space). Again, just FYI. 



Hope this has been helpful!


Heidi Tandy
Sponsorship Chaser
Team Nimbus - 2003
http://www.hp2003.org




From HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com  Sun Feb 16 05:47:06 2003
From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com (HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 16 Feb 2003 05:47:06 -0000
Subject: Reminder - Weekly Chat 
Message-ID: <1045374426.19.77644.m8@yahoogroups.com>


We would like to remind you of this upcoming event.

Weekly Chat 

Date: Sunday, February 16, 2003 
Time: All Day

Hi everyone! Don't forget, chat happens today, 11 am Pacific, 2
pm Eastern, 7 pm UK time. Go into any Yahoo chat room and type
/join HP:1 
For further info, see the Humongous BigFile, section 3.3.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/hbfile.html#33

Hope to see you there! 

 





From lupinesque at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 16 17:56:20 2003
From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z <lupinesque@yahoo.com>)
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 17:56:20 -0000
Subject: Dennis Rodman (WAS Re: Heidi Klum)
In-Reply-To: <b2llik+q4as@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b2ojc4+kh44@eGroups.com>

infiniT wrote:

> (it was the same reasoning behind Dennis Rodman......he wasn't THAT 
> good at basketball but he managed to get himself LOTS of 
attention!!!)

Are you joking?  Dennis Rodman's talent for basketball might be 
outstripped by his talent for self-promotion, but not by much.  He is 
one of the greatest rebounders in NBA history.

Amy
who thinks the broomstick joke was really rude and that grown men who 
make jokes at children's expense should have their broomsticks 
confiscated.  Ahem.




From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk  Sun Feb 16 19:29:35 2003
From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte)
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 19:29:35 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Sirius sighting of a different kind
References: <5.2.0.9.0.20030215153318.00a1a880@pop.cox-internet.com>
Message-ID: <3E4FE69F.000004.62123@monica>

 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
Date: 15 February 2003 21:44:28
To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Sirius sighting of a different kind
 
http://www.belgas3fi.8m.net/Tisco.htm
 
Interesting. This link above shows more what I was thinking of for Padfoot. 
Not so broad-faced or heavy-boned as a Newfoundland. We'll have to see how 
they cast the part in the movie.  ;-}
 
bel
 
 Oh yes that's much more like I imagined Sirius. Frankly I tend to think of
him as an oversized labrador - because the personality just seems to fit.

K



From jeziguh at earthlink.net  Mon Feb 17 03:07:17 2003
From: jeziguh at earthlink.net (Jeziguh <jeziguh@earthlink.net>)
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 03:07:17 -0000
Subject: Literary Criticism for Dummies?
In-Reply-To: <b2mdjr+43cg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b2pjl5+46ul@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr <annemehr at y...>" 
<annemehr at y...> wrote:

> Can anybody recommend a good introductory book on methods of 
>literary criticism?
> 
> On the main list, I keep seeing references to things like 
> "Stanislovskian method," "affective fallacy," and, just today, 
> "somebody's triangle" which you were supposed to recognize from 
>intro. to lit. class.



Woo!  An opportunity to come out of lurkdom!

Here are the recommendations that were once offered by my prof in a 
graduate lit theory class:

1. "The Johns Hopkins Guide to Literary Theory & Criticism"
by Michael Groden (Editor), Martin Kreiswirth (Contributor)
(This is probably the best overall, but it's a bit expensive.)

2. "The Bedford Glossary of Critical and Literary Terms"
by Ross C. Murfin, Supryia M. Ray

3. "Glossary of Literary Terms"
by M. H. Abrams

You might also try half-price books for the "Dictionary of Literary 
Terms and Literary Theory" by J.A. Cuddon.  I got my copy for $4.98, 
and they had a pile of them in stock.

Hope that helps!
Jeziguh




From dianasdolls at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 17 07:22:39 2003
From: dianasdolls at yahoo.com (Diana <dianasdolls@yahoo.com>)
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 07:22:39 -0000
Subject: WANTED: VHS tape of post-Superbowl Alias episode + PoA movie casting
Message-ID: <b2q2jv+d60h@eGroups.com>

This is not about Harry Potter, but I promised my sister-in-law I'd 
ask around for her. 

After the Superbowl ABC aired a special, and very important episode 
of "Alias" - but the West coast didn't get to see it, as our ABC 
affliates treated us to a repeat of another show instead.

If anyone taped that episode of "Alias" and would be willing to 
sell/loan the tape to me, I would be very grateful.  :)

Thank you!

P.S.  The official cast list for PoA on IMDB has gotten much fatter 
with all the old cast returning, plus the addition of Gary Oldman as 
Sirius Black, David Thewlis as Remus Lupin and Michael Gambon as 
Albus Dumbledore.  Still no actress listed for Cho Chang, though.

Diana




From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 17 15:49:02 2003
From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent <psychic_serpent@yahoo.com>)
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 15:49:02 -0000
Subject: WANTED: VHS tape of post-Superbowl Alias episode + PoA movie casting
In-Reply-To: <b2q2jv+d60h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b2r09e+559n@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Diana <dianasdolls at y...>" 
<dianasdolls at y...> wrote:

> P.S.  The official cast list for PoA on IMDB has gotten much 
> fatter with all the old cast returning, plus the addition of Gary 
> Oldman as Sirius Black, David Thewlis as Remus Lupin and Michael 
> Gambon as Albus Dumbledore.  Still no actress listed for Cho 
> Chang, though.

Actually, they have a typo on the list: "Aldus Dumbledore."  I was 
curious to see who Timothy Spall is, as he's supposed to be playing 
Peter Pettigrew.  He looks about right for the part and has an 
impressive list of credits, including--the voice of Nick the Rat 
in "Chicken Run."  Hmm.  Does he have to worry about typecasting in 
the future? <eg>

--Barb





From corsa808 at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 17 17:57:53 2003
From: corsa808 at yahoo.com (infiniT <corsa808@yahoo.com>)
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 17:57:53 -0000
Subject: Heidi Klum (was: Dan at awards)
In-Reply-To: <b2maoh+e9fk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b2r7r1+ud23@eGroups.com>

> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "infiniT <corsa808 at y...>" 
was a complete moron!!! Duh!! What in the world was I thinking??? 
Thanks for correcting me on that.........I'm going to go look for my 
brain now! 

t

> Actually, I believe you're thinking of Anna Kournikova; 




From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 17 18:28:36 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve <bboy_mn@yahoo.com>)
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 18:28:36 -0000
Subject: Owls and Magic (info link)
Message-ID: <b2r9kl+j9g2@eGroups.com>

Of course, we've all heard about the 'wise old owl' but do you really
 recall owls being associated with magic?

On the wonderful 'Owl Pages' the is a large page of info on 'Owls in
Lore and Culture'.

Below is the first of many paragraphs in this article. I thought some
of you might find it interesting.

http://www.owlpages.com/articles/lore_culture/owls_in_lore_4.html

"In many cultures, owls signal an underworld or serve to represent
human spirits after death; in other cultures, owls represent
supportive spirit helpers and allow humans (often shamans) to connect
with or utilize their supernatural powers. Among some native groups in
the Pacific Northwest of USA, owls served to bring shamans in contact
with the dead, provided power for seeing at night, or gave power that
enabled a shaman to find lost objects (Ray 1939 and Cline 1938, as
cited in Keyser et al. 1998)."

bboy_mn







From sophiamcl at hotmail.com  Mon Feb 17 19:43:10 2003
From: sophiamcl at hotmail.com (sophiamcl <sophiamcl@hotmail.com>)
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 19:43:10 -0000
Subject: Dan at Evening Standard Awards (VIDEO)
In-Reply-To: <b2m3sb+ks06@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b2re0e+b0bq@eGroups.com>

_mn at y...>" <bboy_mn at y...> wrote:



I (Sophia) said: plus a  brilliant dead-pan delivery of a  broom-stick quip. 
WoW! Is this kid for real? 

bboy_mn: said in commenting the video and what I wrote

> For those of you who didn't see the intro video, the person
> doing the introducing made a fun, funny, but very embarassing joke at
> Dan's expense. I don't remember it exactly but it went something like
> this-
> 
> Announcer: "When I saw Dan Radcliffe, I thought he had arrived on a
> broomstick, but no, he had just spotted Heidi Klum."
> 
> Big laugh, cut to Dan who is sitting across the table from super-model
> Heidi Klum, he's laughing but obviously very embarassed. In case you
> don't get it, it an erection joke, which would be enough to completely
> rattle any boy that age. 
> 
> When you're 13 you really don't want people making a public spectacle
> out of your alleged erections. Any other boy would have fallen to
> piece completely. But Dan got up on stage and gave a cool professional
> delivery.

Me: Yes, you're right. I didn't even take the intro into account when I raved 
about the speech. I'd like to clarify that the "broomstick quip" I'm referring to 
in the quote at the top of this post is NOT that of the presenter (I'll side with 
Amy on this one, who said she " thinks the broomstick joke was really rude 
and that grown men who make jokes at children's expense should have their 
broomsticks confiscated.") I was referring to Daniel's own pointed comment 
about "when you've been stuck on a broomstick for as long as I have [you 
get to appreciate special f/x]." It got a good laugh from the audience, but 
Daniel didn't crack a smile, which heightened the effect of the joke, I thought.  
(His joke, not the presenters, although he made a point of looking at the 
presenter...anyway, enough already with the blow-by-blow analysis, eh?) 
Anyway, I just wanted to clarify that I liked the Daniel dead-pan bit, rather 
than the salacious comment by the presenter. 

BTW, I've raved about Rupert's talent for comedy, but I wonder if Daniel 
wouln't give him a run for his money given half the chance. I understand he 
did very well in "The Play What I Wrote."

Back to you, "bboy":
> I've always been very impressed with Dan's easy in front of the
> camera. Always very mature but at the same time light-hearted and full
> loving. It's going to be very interesting to see where this boy goes
> in life.

Oooooo, yes. Can you ever see him really falling out of the spotlight?

Sophia





From rvotaw at i-55.com  Mon Feb 17 20:20:21 2003
From: rvotaw at i-55.com (rvotaw at i-55.com)
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 14:20:21 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Dan at Evening Standard Awards (VIDEO)
Message-ID: <17952058.1045513221709.JavaMail.root@webmail.i-55.com>

Sophia wrote:

> Yes, you're right. I didn't even take the intro into account when I raved 
> about the speech. I'd like to clarify that the broomstick quip I'm referring 
> to in the quote at the top of this post is NOT that of the presenter (I'll 
> side with Amy on this one, who said she " thinks the broomstick joke was 
> really rude and that grown men who make jokes at children's expense should 
> have their  broomsticks confiscated.") I was referring to Daniel's own 
> pointed comment about "when you've been stuck on a broomstick for as 
> long as I have [you get to appreciate special f/x]." It got a good laugh 
> from the audience, but  Daniel didn't crack a smile, which heightened the 
> effect of the joke, I thought.
> (His joke, not the presenters, although he made a point of looking at the 
> presenter...anyway, enough already with the blow-by-blow analysis, eh?)

Hmm, well guess what, I in my apparent innocence didn't quite recognize the 
certain rudeness (especially considering it was aimed at a child) until it was 
pointed out here.  I stupidly wondered why everyone laughed that much (I didn't 
see it as *that* funny).  Okay, now I get it.  Shame on him.  (the presenter)  

I also wondered why Daniel pointedly turned and looked directly to the side 
there, I forgot the presenter was over there.  I suppose he was making a point 
by that, making sure he caught that he was using his own, very innocent 
broomstick joke.  I get it.  Yes, I'm slow.

Richelle

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From judy at judyshapiro.com  Mon Feb 17 20:49:40 2003
From: judy at judyshapiro.com (Judy <judy@judyshapiro.com>)
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 20:49:40 -0000
Subject: Enquiring minds want to know 
Message-ID: <b2rht5+1reh@eGroups.com>

I didn't see Dan at the awards show, and my internet connection is
barely working so I can't view video online.  So please tell me, was
the broomstick joke:

a) "I thought Dan came in with a broomstick, but no, it was just Heidi
Klum."  This would be a joke at Klum's expense, implying that she
looks like a broomstick.
 
Or, was the joke:

b) "I though Dan came in riding a broomstick, but no, he had just
looked at Heidi Klum."  This would be a [very rude] joke at Dan's
expense, referring to er, a part of his anatomy.

So, which was it?  (I certainly hope it wasn't both.) I just can not
rest until I know the answer.

-- Judy




From rvotaw at i-55.com  Mon Feb 17 22:02:34 2003
From: rvotaw at i-55.com (rvotaw at i-55.com)
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 16:02:34 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Enquiring minds want to know
Message-ID: <5625381.1045519354729.JavaMail.root@webmail.i-55.com>


Judy asked:

> I didn't see Dan at the awards show, and my internet connection is<BR>
> barely working so I can't view video online. So please tell me, was<BR>
> the broomstick joke:<BR>

I don't listen fast enough to know for certain, but I checked 
www.danradcliffe.com and they have a transcript up.  They have the quote as 
follows:

Jack Dee: "The actor who's put a face to the literary character Harry Potter is 
here. I thought he'd arrived on a broomstick, but I was wrong, he'd just 
spotted Heidi Klum." 

So, who's the victim of this joke?  

I'm still confused . . ..

Richelle

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From illyana at mindspring.com  Mon Feb 17 23:47:26 2003
From: illyana at mindspring.com (illyana delorean)
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 16:47:26 -0700
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Enquiring minds want to know
In-Reply-To: <5625381.1045519354729.JavaMail.root@webmail.i-55.com>
References: <5625381.1045519354729.JavaMail.root@webmail.i-55.com>
Message-ID: <a05200a01ba772433b18c@[10.0.1.11]>

>Judy asked:
>
>>  I didn't see Dan at the awards show, and my internet connection is<BR>
>>  barely working so I can't view video online. So please tell 
>>me, was<BR>
>>  the broomstick joke:<BR>

Richelle replied:

>I don't listen fast enough to know for certain, but I checked
>www.danradcliffe.com and they have a transcript up.  They have the quote as
>follows:
>
>Jack Dee: "The actor who's put a face to the literary character 
>Harry Potter is
>here. I thought he'd arrived on a broomstick, but I was wrong, he'd just
>spotted Heidi Klum."
>
>So, who's the victim of this joke? 

Hmmm... I would assume Dan, because Jack is saying that Dan had "just 
spotted Heidi Klum." If Jack had said that he, himself, had spotted 
Heidi Klum, then I would take it to mean that he had mistaken Heidi 
for a broomstick. But, since Dan was the one doing the spotting, the 
Heidi-as-a-broomstick part would not make sense. At least it wouldn't 
in my mind!

I think he was making the joke at the expense of Dan's anatomy.

illyana
-- 
HPGCv1
a22 e+ x+* Rm Ri HP4 S+++ Mo++ HG+/VK++ HaP+/SS+++& FGW++ DM++& VC-- 
GG-- CD+ VK++ SS+++& PT--- AF-- MM++ RL++ O+m FAo F- Sl FHo SfD

visit my livejournal! http://www.livejournal.com/users/illyanadmc



From meboriqua at aol.com  Mon Feb 17 23:57:16 2003
From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw <meboriqua@aol.com>)
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 23:57:16 -0000
Subject: Make Snow, Not War!
Message-ID: <b2rsss+nuff@eGroups.com>

Hey everyone -

Here in NYC (and I know in Maryland, DC, Pennsylvania and now up 
through New England) we got major major snow.  They're saying NYC 
received a whopping 20 inches and that's nothing compared to the 40 
inches elsewhere.  My boyfriend and I went for a nice walk in Central 
Park and saw people making snowmen/women, playing football, throwing 
snowballs, and falling down.  It was great!

My point is, all this snow has been monopolizing the news and I 
haven't heard a thing all day about Hussein, Iraq, oil or war.  All 
the news programs here have been reporting on whether or not the snow 
is good for snowperson-making, which schools and airports are closed, 
and when is the best time to shovel.  What a treat!

--jenny from ravenclaw ************************************




From timregan at microsoft.com  Tue Feb 18 02:04:27 2003
From: timregan at microsoft.com (Tim Regan <timregan@microsoft.com>)
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 02:04:27 -0000
Subject: Do they celebrate Valentine's Day outside the U.S.?
In-Reply-To: <b2l0hr+8ps4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b2s4bb+c1g6@eGroups.com>

Hi All,

One USA / UK difference I've noticed is the kid element. While in 
the UK kids did join in, it was mainly a between lovers (or 
hopefuls) celebration. Here (USA) it's a really big with kids: class 
parties, loads and loads of cards and candies, presents for mom and 
dad, etc. The kids make cards for everyone in their class.

In Russia, isn't February 14 St. Cyrils day too - the guy who 
invented the Russian alphabet so that he could translate the 
scriptures?

   Cheers,


   Dumbledad.






From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 18 02:45:39 2003
From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (maria_kirilenko <maria_kirilenko@yahoo.com>)
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 02:45:39 -0000
Subject: Do they celebrate Valentine's Day outside the U.S.?
In-Reply-To: <b2s4bb+c1g6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b2s6oj+1ldj@eGroups.com>

> Dumbledad:
> In Russia, isn't February 14 St. Cyrils day too - the guy who 
> invented the Russian alphabet so that he could translate the 
> scriptures?

Me:
Yes, it's is, although the calendar is different. It's only February 
14th by the Old Style, the one that's only used by the Russian 
Orthodox Church, but by the New Style (or whatever it's called in 
English), St. Cyrill's day is 13 days later, February 27th.

Maria




From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 18 03:22:03 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve <bboy_mn@yahoo.com>)
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 03:22:03 -0000
Subject: Dan's Joke and some Rupert
In-Reply-To: <b2re0e+b0bq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b2s8sr+8i5n@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "sophiamcl <sophiamcl at h...>"
<sophiamcl at h...> wrote:
> _mn at y...>" <bboy_mn at y...> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> I (Sophia) said: plus a  brilliant dead-pan delivery of a 
> broom-stick quip.  WoW! Is this kid for real? 
> 


> bboy_mn: said in commenting the video and what I wrote
> 
> > For those of you who didn't see the intro video, the person
> > doing the introducing made a fun, funny, but very embarassing 
> > joke at> Dan's expense. I don't remember it exactly but it went 
> > something like this-
> > 
> > Announcer: "When I saw Dan Radcliffe, I thought he had arrived 
> > on a broomstick, but no, he had just spotted Heidi Klum."
> > 
> > ... Any other boy would have fallen to piece completely. But Dan 
> > got up on stage and gave a cool professional delivery. 
> > 


> Me: (Sophia)
> Yes, you're right. I didn't even take the intro into account when 
> I raved about the speech. I'd like to clarify that the "broomstick 
> quip" I'm referring to in the quote at the top of this post is NOT 
> that of the presenter ...
>
> ...edited...


bboy_mn now writes:
I did understand that you were refering to Dan's own broomstick
comment. But someone earlier had slightly misquoted the Presenter's
remark in a way that essentially had the same content but obscured the
exact nature of the broomstick reference, and for people who hadn't
seen the Intro video, I wanted to make sure they understood just how
cool Dan really was under the circumstances.
-end this part-



> Sophia :
> BTW, I've raved about Rupert's talent for comedy, but I wonder if
> Daniel wouln't give him a run for his money given half the chance. 
> I understand he did very well in "The Play What I Wrote."
>

bboy_mn now comments:
I think part of what made 'The Play What I Wrote' so funny is that Dan
was having so much fun doing it. Something I read indicated that Dan
was laughing so hard the they had to break from character and
playfully tell him to settle down a bit. Certainly, Dan could do
comedy well. I could easily see him as a character in a TV Sit-Com and
see him being very very funny at it.

Now to Rupert as long as you've brought him up. Sadly, Rupert is the
one that I really worry about. Rupert really want to be an actor where
as Dan sees many options open to him. 

If you read the short note Dan wrote for Reader's Digest about Santa
Claus and Christmas, then you know what a talented writer Dan is. So
he is full of ideas and possibilities; writer, director, actor,
producer, or probably many other's we haven't heard about. 

But it can't be easy to be second banana. Rupert really seriously
wants to be an actor, but to do that you have to keep a high public
profile. But it's Dan who gets all the invitations to guest star and
present awards. Dan gets all the press and Rupert gets lost in the
background, and I fear that will lead Rupert to make some bad
decisions. Perhaps even get frustrated and go the way of many child
actors, falling into drugs and alcohol to deal with the stress.

I think Rupert has a tremendous range as an actor, especially for one
so young and with so little experience. Everyone talks about his funny
faces and his comedic ability, but if you look at every scene that he
is in, his face expression and body language capture and convey the
emotions of that moment perfectly. He doesn't just make funny faces,
he is very expressive of a full range of feelings. 

As I have said before, I was very concerned to hear about the change
in Rupurt's family situation. That is, supsossedly his father sold his
successful business of many years, and aledgedly Rupurt spend the near
?500,000 he made for the movies to buy his parents a new house. Keep
in mind this information comes from the SUN newspaper which is tabloid
and it's reliability is highly questionable. If it's true that's a bad
sign. When the family hangs everything on the back of a child star,
they are asking for big trouble. 

So I worry that Rupert wanting success so very bad, and constantly
being shifted to the side in favor of Dan (much like Harry and Ron)
will eventually take a heavy toll.

As much as Rupert wants to keep on with the HP series and as
successful as it is likely to be, there is the risk that he will be
perpetually seen as Ron Weasley and will be unable to get other parts.
Sadly, that does happen to actors. They become so well known for a
particular part that no matter what part they play, people still see
Ron Weasley.  So there is a good arguement for them to all quit after
PoA, and move on and try to establish independant careers. I could
easily see Rupert getting a job on almost any existing RV series, or a
new TV series developed just for him, and also making many more
movies. But he could just as easily get trapped in the entertainment
world's deadly quicksand of fame.

So... can't help it, I like the guy and I worry about him. 
-end this part-


> 
> Back to you, "bboy":
> > I've always been very impressed with Dan's easy in front of the
> > camera. Always very mature but at the same time light-hearted and
> > full loving. It's going to be very interesting to see where this 
> > boy goes in life.
> 


> Oooooo, yes. Can you ever see him really falling out of the 
> spotlight?
> 
> Sophia

bboy_m finishes with:
I can see him falling out of the spotlight that he is in, but only to
fall into another spotlight. With him as well, I pray that he is able
to avoid the quicksand of fame.

Just a few thoughts.

bboy_mn





From judy at judyshapiro.com  Tue Feb 18 06:34:55 2003
From: judy at judyshapiro.com (Judy <judy@judyshapiro.com>)
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 06:34:55 -0000
Subject: Enquiring mind finally knows
In-Reply-To: <b2rht5+1reh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b2sk6f+kks0@eGroups.com>

Thanks to everyone who clued me in on the broomstick joke.  Poor Dan!
 Let's hope that the MC just made it up & was not really referring to
any actual, um, response on Dan's part!

-- Judy, who liked the joke better when she envisioned it as referring
to a tall, wooden, very thin, actress with sticking-up hair




From dianasdolls at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 18 10:26:59 2003
From: dianasdolls at yahoo.com (Diana Lucas)
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 02:26:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Crude Joke at ESA
In-Reply-To: <1045486207.629.49904.m12@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20030218102659.44282.qmail@web40208.mail.yahoo.com>


Amy wrote:
>who thinks the broomstick joke was really rude and
that grown men who make jokes at children's expense
should have their broomsticks confiscated.  Ahem.<

Me:

   I agree with you, Amy.  I didn't hear the joke
told, but I did read about it on the list.  That joke
was very tasteless to tell at the expense of a
thirteen-year-old boy *and* in front of room full of
people!  My husband wondered whether the
erection-reference of the joke went over Daniel
Radcliffe's head, but I told him it's unlikely that he
didn't get the rudeness behind the joke.  
   I did like how Dan Radcliffe made his comment about
having spent lots of time on a broom while giving his
presentation as almost a reference back to that joke.
Maybe Daniel made that comment to get the joke-teller
back for that joke *or* maybe he even referenced
broomsticks again because he found that off-color joke
funny?   I seriously doubt it, but as I was never a
thirteen-year old boy and my son is now only Radcliffe
 nine, I wouldn't know for sure. 
     
Diana
dianasdolls
 

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day
http://shopping.yahoo.com



From lupinesque at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 18 10:40:35 2003
From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z <lupinesque@yahoo.com>)
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 10:40:35 -0000
Subject: Crude Joke at ESA
In-Reply-To: <20030218102659.44282.qmail@web40208.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <b2t2j3+2r3f@eGroups.com>

Diana wrote:

> That joke
> was very tasteless to tell at the expense of a
> thirteen-year-old boy *and* in front of room full of
> people!  My husband wondered whether the
> erection-reference of the joke went over Daniel
> Radcliffe's head

Very possibly.  That would be just as bad, IMO.  I recall the extreme 
discomfort at that age of knowing that things had meanings that I 
couldn't quite comprehend but that made adults laugh.  I can still 
blush at a memory of innocently using what seemed like an appropriate 
phrase to describe Mom's dragging me out of a social gathering before 
I wanted to go, and being informed by her (amidst giggles) 
that "jerked off" had another meaning (but not what it was . . . I 
guess I finally learned that from the proverbial playground).  Even 
once kids know the biological facts, which one hopes to heaven a 13-
year-old boy does, they don't get double entendres quite as fast as 
we jaded adults do.  

Amy




From lupinesque at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 18 10:43:47 2003
From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z <lupinesque@yahoo.com>)
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 10:43:47 -0000
Subject: Make Snow, Not War!
In-Reply-To: <b2rsss+nuff@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b2t2p3+uq7c@eGroups.com>

It was very inconsiderate of the snow to fall on a holiday (yesterday 
was a federal holiday here in the States, campers).  I hope you get a 
day off school today.

Amy




From ameliagoldfeesh at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 18 13:52:49 2003
From: ameliagoldfeesh at yahoo.com (ameliagoldfeesh <ameliagoldfeesh@yahoo.com>)
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 13:52:49 -0000
Subject: Questions for other rat owners
Message-ID: <b2tdrh+p2bg@eGroups.com>

I'm posting this since I know that there are at least a couple of 
other rat owners on the list I believe.
 
I have a pair of female rats both over a year old.  I just 
discovered last night that one, Tessa, the older of the two, was 
dragging her back hind leg.  I've noticed over the last few weeks or 
so that she (normally a very active rat- always scurrying around, 
climbing, etc) has slowed down a bit and even seemed a bit clumsy.  
I've done some research on the web and discovered that paralysis 
isn't uncommon in older rats.  

I was wondering if anyone else on this list has had this happen to 
their rats? 

A Goldfeesh
(www.rmca.org is a good rat site- it is the Rat and Mouse Club of 
America)




From rvotaw at i-55.com  Tue Feb 18 14:54:09 2003
From: rvotaw at i-55.com (rvotaw at i-55.com)
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 08:54:09 -0600 (CST)
Subject: New HP Lego
Message-ID: <4805956.1045580049883.JavaMail.root@webmail.i-55.com>

I saw a few pictures from the 2003 Toy Fair at this site:

http://www.alteredstatesmag.com/gallery/view_album.php?set_albumName=tf2k3-misc-
lego&page=4

And two new Harry Potter Lego sets are shown!  Which means they'll probably 
make more than that, since they never show the really good stuff at the Toy 
Fair (Last year they just showed Quidditch and a couple smaller sets).  The are 
making a Knockturn Alley and a Quality Quidditch Supplies shop.  Yippee!

Richelle

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From bray.262 at osu.edu  Tue Feb 18 10:07:12 2003
From: bray.262 at osu.edu (Rachel Bray)
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 10:07:12 +0000 (EST5EDT)
Subject: Snow and comment on rats
Message-ID: <13A163D5007@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>

It took me two hours to dig out my car yesterday.  The wall 
behind my car came to my waist.  Argh!  I think the 
official count for us was 21 inches of snow by yesterday 
morning.  But that also is because I live in an area that 
doesn't have a lot of tall buildings and so the drifting is 
rather bad.  My parents are still without power in southern 
Ohio and have been since Saturday.  We lost trees in our 
back yard that were over 30 years old.  Very sad.  She said 
that when they started breaking apart it sounded like bombs 
going off.

So I hope all of you in the snow belt these last couple of 
days are doing well.  Stay warm and don't go outside if 
it's not necessary!  It's hell out there!  I still can't 
believe OSU closed yesterday.  From what I understand they 
were still open during the blizzard of 78.

The rat question....I've owned four rats at different 
times.  They all lived a very long time but as Jordy was 
hitting about 5 years old, he started dragging his hind 
leg, too.  It turned out to be a tumor on his spine.  Then 
when Winston was hitting about 4 years old, he started to 
drag his leg a little.  I immediately thought it was 
cancer, but it turned out to be...get this...a pulled 
muscle.  The vet gave me a muscle relaxer kinda thing for 
him and two days later, he was fine.  He eventually died of 
old age at 5 years old.  So...honestly, it could be 
anything ranging from nothing serious to complete 
heartbreak.  I'd take him to a vet if it doesn't fix 
itself.  Good luck with it.  Rats are wonderful pets.

*now having warm fuzzy thoughts of Jordy, Winston Churchill 
and Franklin Roosevelt, Sidney and Bosco and missing their 
adorable furry faces and hilarious personalities*




Rachel Bray
The Ohio State University
Fees & Deposits

"I had a stick of CareFree gum, but it didn't work. I felt
pretty good for a while, but as soon as the gum lost its
flavor, I was back to pondering my mortality."
  --Mitch Hedberg



From sophiamcl at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 18 15:53:50 2003
From: sophiamcl at hotmail.com (sophiamcl <sophiamcl@hotmail.com>)
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 15:53:50 -0000
Subject: Dan's Joke and some Rupert
In-Reply-To: <b2s8sr+8i5n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b2tkuf+jg2h@eGroups.com>

-<bboy_mn at y...> wrote:
> 
> If you read the short note Dan wrote for Reader's Digest about Santa
> Claus and Christmas, then you know what a talented writer Dan is. So
> he is full of ideas and possibilities; writer, director, actor,
> producer, or probably many other's we haven't heard about. 

When? Where? How can I get a hold of it? Is it available on the net?
  

bboy: 
> As I have said before, I was very concerned to hear about the change
> in Rupurt's family situation. That is, supsossedly his father sold his
> successful business of many years, and aledgedly Rupurt spend the near
> ?500,000 he made for the movies to buy his parents a new house. Keep
> in mind this information comes from the SUN newspaper which is tabloid
> and it's reliability is highly questionable. If it's true that's a bad
> sign. When the family hangs everything on the back of a child star,
> they are asking for big trouble. 
> 

Thankyou for your comments on Rupert. I like him too, and I also worry bout=
 
the rumours of the Grint family finances. It would be an awful thing for a =

fourteen-year-old to suddenly have become the family provider, even if the =

money is good. If it is true, what'll happen when he's older and moves away=
 
from home? Would his family still rely on him for money? No good could come=
 
of such an arrangement. But as you say, it may be rumours, and I hope that'=
s 
all they are. 


Sophia





From heidit at netbox.com  Tue Feb 18 16:10:42 2003
From: heidit at netbox.com (heiditandy)
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 11:10:42 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Dan's Joke and some Rupert
In-Reply-To: <b2tkuf+jg2h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00b301c2d768$4a6970f0$0301a8c0@Frodo>

Bboy wrote: 
> > If you read the short note Dan wrote for Reader's Digest 
> about Santa 
> > Claus and Christmas, then you know what a talented writer 
> Dan is. So 
> > he is full of ideas and possibilities; writer, director, actor, 
> > producer, or probably many other's we haven't heard about.

Sophie replied:
> 
> When? Where? How can I get a hold of it? Is it available on the net?

Why, yes it is :)

I posted it on The Leaky Cauldron back on November 18, so you can search
for it there (http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org). Here's a smidge of it:

The moment when I understood there is an amazing man who visits children
all over the world and gives them presents was mysterious and magical
for me. I remember making sure that my list had been sent weeks before,
that Santa had food, and of course, a drink for all those tired
reindeer...

Heidi Tandy
Team TLC




From jenP_97 at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 18 16:25:35 2003
From: jenP_97 at yahoo.com (Jennifer Piersol <jenP_97@yahoo.com>)
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 16:25:35 -0000
Subject: Questions for other rat owners
In-Reply-To: <b2tdrh+p2bg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b2tmpv+kuf4@eGroups.com>

ameliagoldfeesh asked about rats and paralysis...

Well, it's been a while, but I owned a rat after I 
graduated from college (right after I got married) 
named Claire de Lune (but we called her Ratty).  
She was a pretty neurotic thing... very shy, but 
loved teasing and scaring our cats.  Anyway, when 
she was about 2 1/2, she got a tumor on her 
shoulder, and it was horrible.  She would 
occasionally bleed from her nose, and every once 
in a while, she'd get siezures (sp? - it doesn't 
look right).  But I think I first noticed it when 
she got a little clumsy and stumbled around when 
she walked.

We ended up putting the poor thing to sleep and 
burying her out under our only tree.  The people 
at the vet thought I was a little kooky for 
wanting to spend $30 to put a rat to sleep... but 
phooey on them!

I was a little disappointed that she had such a 
short life, but she was lovely while I knew her.  
And my family got their kicks out of suggesting 
baby names like Claire and getting, "Sorry, can't 
name the baby that - we had a rat named Claire 
once."

Jen P., fellow rat owner.




From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 18 20:04:05 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve <bboy_mn@yahoo.com>)
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 20:04:05 -0000
Subject: Dan on Santa Claus - Readre's Digest
In-Reply-To: <00b301c2d768$4a6970f0$0301a8c0@Frodo>
Message-ID: <b2u3jl+l3kf@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "heiditandy" <heidit at n...> wrote:
> Bboy wrote: 
> > > If you read the short note Dan wrote for Reader's Digest 
> > > about Santa Claus and Christmas, then you know what a talented 
> > > writer Dan is. 

> 
> Sophie replied:
> > 
> > When? Where? How can I get a hold of it? Is it available on 
> > the net?
> 
> Why, yes it is :)
> ...edited...
> 
> Heidi Tandy
> Team TLC

Daniel Radcliffe on Santa Claus - Dec 2002 - Reader's Digest

"The moment when I understood there is an amazing man who visits
children all over the world and gives them presents was mysterious and
magical for me. I remember making sure that my list had been sent
weeks before, that Santa had food, and of course, a drink for all
those tired reindeer. I even remember the feel of my warm pajamas
after my bath. Sleeping was such a problem that night, but eventually
I did, and, oh, when I woke! I loved the biscuit with the bite taken
out of it, and Santa's reply saying that he hoped I'd enjoyed the
presents and that he hadn't forgotten anything - and he hadn't! That
was what was so miraculous. He knew everything - even things I had
mentioned months ago but had forgotten. Now I'm a little older, but I
still believe in the spirit of that man who dashes all over the world
making children smile on Christmas morning."

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . 

Certainly look at the sentiment of what he said but also look at the
used of the English language and construction of his sentences. 

Very few adults, even some professional writers, could write so
expressively.

I'm impressed.

bboy_mn




From bray.262 at osu.edu  Tue Feb 18 14:58:29 2003
From: bray.262 at osu.edu (Rachel Bray)
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 14:58:29 +0000 (EST5EDT)
Subject: Rufus Wainwright
Message-ID: <13EF19F32E0@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>

Anyone out there a Rufus fan that could recommend a good CD 
to be introduced to him by?  I heard him sing and I've got 
the Moulin Rouge soundtrack and he's on that.  And I have a 
video of him singing Hallelujah.  Now I'm interested in 
getting a CD of his.

Any suggestions?

E-mail me off-list.

Thanks!

Rachel Bray
The Ohio State University
Fees & Deposits

"I had a stick of CareFree gum, but it didn't work. I felt
pretty good for a while, but as soon as the gum lost its
flavor, I was back to pondering my mortality."
  --Mitch Hedberg



From the.gremlin at verizon.net  Tue Feb 18 20:47:01 2003
From: the.gremlin at verizon.net (the.gremlin at verizon.net)
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 14:47:01 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Questions for other rat owners
Message-ID: <20030218204701.GJBE3094.out003.verizon.net@[192.168.129.96]>

The Goldfeesh wrote:
"I have a pair of female rats both over a year old.  I just 
discovered last night that one, Tessa, the older of the two, was dragging her back hind leg.  I've noticed over the last few weeks or so that she (normally a very active rat- always scurrying around, climbing, etc) has slowed down a bit and even seemed a bit clumsy.  I've done some research on the web and discovered that paralysis isn't uncommon in older rats.  

I was wondering if anyone else on this list has had this happen to their rats?" 

I have owned a total of 3 rats (and can't own anymore because of the campus pet policy, I'm stuck with a fish, affectionately named "He-Who-Has-No-Name"). My first, who we found was actually boy *after* he died, died of either heat stroke or old age (3 years old), or even both. My sister than got a blue female rat, and she had been the runt of the litter, always very small. My own, second rat, a little older, was much bigger. They were very good friends, though. Anyway, my rat (a bareback rat) started getting this lump on her side. We were afraid it was a tumor, so we took her to the vet. It was a fat cyst. They could operate, but not only was it expensive, my mother found it ridiculous. So we let her be. 

I don't recall any leg-dragging, though I did feel feel the lump under her skin when it first started. My sister's rat, the runt, we believe she developed cancer. She got skinnier and skinnier, and right before she died, we discovered a lump on her chin. She wasn't even 2 years old when she died. The bareback died a few weeks later, most likely from heartbreak (no more friend) or her cyst. She was a little over 2 years old. 

I don't know about hind-leg dragging, but, seeing as how I read my 2 rat books religiously every day (practically), I don't recall anything about paralysis. What about a broken leg? Ooh, wait, an ear infection. I'm sorry, this probably sounds scary. I recall something about going in circles and being clumsy having to do with an ear infection.

The bareback started limping, but that was after she had a tennis ball in her side. Is your rat a runt? Runts have lots of problems, from experience. And a year old isn't old for a rat. That's about mid-life right there. Especially if other people's rats lived till 5 years old...wow.

Good luck with your rats! They are a vastly misunderstood species. Like snakes. Or dragons. :D

-Acire, who wants a rat again. And a cat. Oh, wait, have one of those.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From lupinesque at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 18 20:44:03 2003
From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z <lupinesque@yahoo.com>)
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 20:44:03 -0000
Subject: Dan on Santa Claus - Readre's Digest
In-Reply-To: <b2u3jl+l3kf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b2u5uj+8ojm@eGroups.com>

<Daniel Radcliffe's Reader's Digest Christmas piece snipped because 
it's probably a copyright violation to post it here at such length 
anyway>

bboy wrote:

> Certainly look at the sentiment of what he said but also look at the
> used of the English language and construction of his sentences. 
> 
> Very few adults, even some professional writers, could write so
> expressively.

I'm not *intimately* familiar with the style of Reader's Digest, 
since I mostly read the jokes (though as a morbid little child I 
loved the "I Can't Hold on Much Longer!" rescue stories), but this 
sounds ghost-written to me--or at least heavily edited.  There is a 
Reader's-Digest-y tone that makes me think DR might've jotted down 
some memories and thoughts and then an editor shaped it into RD prose.

Amy




From timregan at microsoft.com  Tue Feb 18 21:45:39 2003
From: timregan at microsoft.com (Tim Regan <timregan@microsoft.com>)
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 21:45:39 -0000
Subject: Crude Joke at ESA
In-Reply-To: <b2t2j3+2r3f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b2u9i3+gkl4@eGroups.com>

Hi All,

Firstly, I didn't see Jack Dee's variation on "is that a gun in your 
pocket or are you just pleased to see me?" joke ? I've just read 
about it here.

Secondly, from what I remember about being a teenage boy in the UK 
Daniel will have got the joke, partly because teenage boys spend a 
lot of time thinking about all things sexual and partly because 
sexual innuendo is a commonplace form of humour in the UK.

Thirdly we are all talking of the joke as if it were at Daniel's 
expense. I'm not sure likening someone's member to a broomstick is 
at his expense ? a broomstick is over four foot long! But it would 
be embarrassing.


   Cheers,


  Dumbledad





From todd_nmn at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 19 00:22:43 2003
From: todd_nmn at yahoo.com (todd_nmn <todd_nmn@yahoo.com>)
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 00:22:43 -0000
Subject: What is a FILK?  EOM
Message-ID: <b2uioj+377g@eGroups.com>






From rvotaw at i-55.com  Wed Feb 19 03:23:31 2003
From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw)
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 21:23:31 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Crude joke at ESA/ Dan on Santa Claus - Reader's Digest
References: <b2u5uj+8ojm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <002001c2d7c6$47776a60$3fa3cdd1@RVotaw>

Diana wrote:

>  I agree with you, Amy.  I didn't hear the joke told, but I did read about it 
> on the list.  That joke was very tasteless to tell at the expense of a
> thirteen-year-old boy *and* in front of room full of people!  My husband 
> wondered whether the erection-reference of the joke went over Daniel 
> Radcliffe's head, but I told him it's unlikely that he didn't get the rudeness 
> behind the joke.  

I don't know . . . I think he got it. Between turning absolutely red (which admittedly is rather common for a 13 year old) when the joke was made and that deliberate turn of the head in the direction of the announcer when he made his own (very innocent) broomstick joke I get the idea that he understood perfectly.

Amy wrote:

> I'm not *intimately* familiar with the style of Reader's Digest, 
> since I mostly read the jokes (though as a morbid little child I 
> loved the "I Can't Hold on Much Longer!" rescue stories), but this 
> sounds ghost-written to me--or at least heavily edited.  There is a 
> Reader's-Digest-y tone that makes me think DR might've jotted down 
> some memories and thoughts and then an editor shaped it into RD prose.

Hmm, I don't know. If they edited it, they sure didn't edit it for British English.  Yes, I'm stupid, but I wondered for a while why he would leave out "biscuits" for Santa.  (Okay, go ahead, a "How thick can you get?" quote is appropriate at this time.)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 19 03:28:51 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve <bboy_mn@yahoo.com>)
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 03:28:51 -0000
Subject: Dan on Santa Claus - Readre's Digest
In-Reply-To: <b2u5uj+8ojm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b2utlj+90th@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Amy Z <lupinesque at y...>"
<lupinesque at y...> wrote:
> <Daniel Radcliffe's Reader's Digest Christmas piece snipped because 
> it's probably a copyright violation to post it here at such length 
> anyway>
> 
> bboy wrote:
> 
> > Certainly look at the sentiment of what he said but also look at
> > the used of the English language and construction of his 
> > sentences. 
> > 
> > Very few adults, even some professional writers, could write so
> > expressively.
> 
> I'm not *intimately* familiar with the style of Reader's Digest, 
> ...edited... but this sounds ghost-written to me--or at least 
> heavily edited.  There is a Reader's-Digest-y tone that makes me 
> think DR might've jotted down  some memories and thoughts and then 
> an editor shaped it into RD prose.
> 
> Amy

bboy_mn:

The whole article was made up of short comments similar to this by
celebrities from all over the world. I think I may have thrown the
book away, but there clearly was no identifiable 'editorial' style to
these. They we all very individual and unique.

It is that individual and very unique application of language and
structure that make me think it must be real. I have to believe that
if some editor were just paraphrasing Dan, the language and structure
would have come out in a more common form.

Just a few thoughts.

bboy_mn






From dradamsapple at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 19 05:27:24 2003
From: dradamsapple at yahoo.com (dradamsapple <dradamsapple@yahoo.com>)
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 05:27:24 -0000
Subject: Crude Joke at ESA
In-Reply-To: <b2u9i3+gkl4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b2v4js+9igd@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Tim Regan <timregan at m...>" 
<timregan at m...> wrote:
> Hi All,
> 
> Firstly, I didn't see Jack Dee's variation on "is that a gun in 
your 
> pocket or are you just pleased to see me?" joke ? I've just read 
> about it here.
> 
> Secondly, from what I remember about being a teenage boy in the UK 
> Daniel will have got the joke, partly because teenage boys spend a 
> lot of time thinking about all things sexual and partly because 
> sexual innuendo is a commonplace form of humour in the UK.
> 
> Thirdly we are all talking of the joke as if it were at Daniel's 
> expense. I'm not sure likening someone's member to a broomstick is 
> at his expense ? a broomstick is over four foot long! But it would 
> be embarrassing.
> 
> 
>    Cheers,
> 
> 
>   Dumbledad

Hey all,

Just catching up on the list as I've been buried in 27.5 inches 
(official at Logan airport)for the past day or so. Did everyone 
survive the snow?? 8-)

Anyway, Amy, so glad you pointed out the rudeness of the joke.  I 
thought the same thing when I read the transcript.  ESPECIALLY since 
I believe I saw pictures of Dan next to his mum, so his mother, I'm 
assuming, was present during this introduction.  How embarrassing is 
that for Dan??  I've got a 12 year old  (13, July 28), who can't 
stand to see his father and I hug, ("eeeewwwww" material), I can't 
imagine what it must have felt like to sit there and listen to a 
comment about your, er, "broomstick" while your *parents *are sitting 
next to you, and the object of this discussion, Ms. Heidi herself.

 I agree with Steve in that Dan truly shows that he was not shaken by 
this so-called-joke at all, even though he may have been terrified, 
furious, embarressed, or whatever emotion you can think of.  He 
certianly showed a lot more integrity and maturity than the 
announcer, and I hope everyone remebers that.

Anna  . . .(who is more and more impressed with Master Daniel every 
day)




From macloudt at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Feb 19 11:12:37 2003
From: macloudt at yahoo.co.uk (Mary Ann <macloudt@yahoo.co.uk>)
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 11:12:37 -0000
Subject: Birthday Greetings!
Message-ID: <b2vor5+i6rs@eGroups.com>

:::::hangs fresh balloons and streamers around the room:::::

We have another birthday to celebrate!  Today's birthday greetings go 
to Haggridd!  Greetings for Haggridd can be sent to the List.

Have a great day, Haggridd, and I hope you get lots of HP goodies!

Mary Ann
(TBE)




From Ali at zymurgy.org  Wed Feb 19 11:26:58 2003
From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali <Ali@zymurgy.org>)
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 11:26:58 -0000
Subject: Crude Joke at ESA
In-Reply-To: <b2v4js+9igd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b2vpm2+n8m6@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "dradamsapple 
<dradamsapple at y...>" <dradamsapple at y...> wrote:

<<  I agree with Steve in that Dan truly shows that he was not shaken 
by  this so-called-joke at all, even though he may have been 
terrified, furious, embarressed, or whatever emotion you can think 
of.  He  certianly showed a lot more integrity and maturity than the 
 announcer, and I hope everyone remebers that.>>

I can't help thinking that the whole interaction might have been pre-
planned. It just seems too much of a coincidence that Dan followed 
Jack Dee's reference to broomsticks with his own. Perhaps he did make 
his speech up then and there, but I think it unlikely. I'm tempted to 
think that he knew what was coming, and exactly what it meant.

Perhaps this is my awful dry humour, but I've seen Jack Dee perform 
as a stand-up and he really was brilliant. Perhaps his humour is a 
little risque, but I don't think any Brit would have been unduly 
surprised by it. I suppose for Dan, that's the kind of risk he runs 
by moving about in those circles. It isn't then surprising that his 
parents try to shield him from the worst impact of it. He is an 
actor, he loves to perform and I'm sure he will have enjoyed the 
laughter even if it was at his expense. I'm not even sure that having 
his parents there would have been a problem. He seems very close to 
his parents, and perhaps their relationship can deal with this kind 
of innuendo.

Ali





From macloudt at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Feb 19 14:27:16 2003
From: macloudt at yahoo.co.uk (Mary Ann <macloudt@yahoo.co.uk>)
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 14:27:16 -0000
Subject: Questions for other rat owners
In-Reply-To: <b2tmpv+kuf4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b30484+8j8s@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Jennifer Piersol 

> The people 
> at the vet thought I was a little kooky for 
> wanting to spend $30 to put a rat to sleep... but 
> phooey on them!

Do you actually mean the people who worked in the veterinary centre?  
That would be awful :(  And, heck, I've spent far more on my rats...

I had to female rats, Babette and Ambrosia, when I was in my late 
teens.  When Ambrosia was 18 months old I noticed a lump on her side 
between her front and back legs.  It turned out to be a benign 
mammory tumour, which, I was told by the vet, is very common in 
female rats.  So I spent $250 Canadian to have the tumour removed.  
The anasthetic (sp?) alone was $70, which I thought was ludicrous, 
but I couldn't bear to have Ambrosia put to sleep as she was, on the 
whole, very healthy.  In fact after the surgery she lived for another 
2 years.

A year later I noticed a similar lump on Babette, so I knew what I 
was in for.  Another $250 later, Babette was home, groggy and with 
sutchers (sp?) in her side.  Around midnight I was finishing some 
schoolwork when I heard "SQUEAK!!".  I hurried to the cage, only to 
find Babette with a dazed look and an open wound in her side, and 
Ambrosia with Babette's sutchers in her mouth.  With tears in my eyes 
I headed off to the all-night emergency vet centre, which was staffed 
by the biggest pack of gits I've ever encountered.  By the next 
morning Babette's wound was cleaned and restitched, and I'd had to 
borrow another $250 from my brother to pay the bill.

So that's how an $8 rat ended up costing me $500.  And, yes, everyone 
thought I was mad.  But I think Babette was worth it :)  IMO if you 
have a pet you have a responsibility to give it the best possible vet 
care, even if you have to scrounge off siblings to pay for it.

BTW Babette was as sweet as can be, but thick as two planks.  She 
couldn't have found her way through a maze with a map.  I once saw 
her literally walk off the end of the table, which is how I know that 
rats land on all 4 paws with no injuries.

Mary Ann
(who has no rats now because she has 2 cats who are excellent hunters)




From ken.kuller at veritas.com  Wed Feb 19 16:00:29 2003
From: ken.kuller at veritas.com (Kenneth M. Kuller <ken.kuller@veritas.com>)
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 16:00:29 -0000
Subject: What is a FILK?  EOM
In-Reply-To: <b2uioj+377g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b309mt+2ir2@eGroups.com>

I'm not an expert, but I think the answer is anything that is 
sung "to the tune of...."  

A longer answer is that filk appears to be a collection of parodies 
and other music, set to existing tunes. The bulk of this 
broad "other" category tends to be dominated by songs about 
characters and situations from science fiction or fantasy literature.

For example, 
? Quidditch Fan Song 
? (To the tune of Take Me Out to the Ball Game) 

? Take me out to see Quidditch
? Take me out for the match
? Buy me Bertie's Every Flavor Beans
? I love them all except if they're green
? And we'll root root root for the Seeker
? Let's hope that he grabs the Snitch
? For it's one-hundred fifty points when you play Quidditch!
 
 
 
For further examples, see the "Harry Potter Filk" site at 
http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm or the "Harry Humor" site 
at http://www.potter-and-all.com/Harry-Humor.html .





From sophiamcl at hotmail.com  Wed Feb 19 20:08:31 2003
From: sophiamcl at hotmail.com (sophiamcl <sophiamcl@hotmail.com>)
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 20:08:31 -0000
Subject: filk and nimbus 2003
In-Reply-To: <b309mt+2ir2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b30o7v+7ft5@eGroups.com>

It doesn't look as if I'll be able to attend Nimbus 2003, but I still have a 
suggestion regarding this get-together. Wouldn't it be great if it included a 
filk-sing-along event?

Sophia




From sophiamcl at hotmail.com  Wed Feb 19 20:14:53 2003
From: sophiamcl at hotmail.com (sophiamcl <sophiamcl@hotmail.com>)
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 20:14:53 -0000
Subject: Gryffindor emblem?
Message-ID: <b30ojt+57ip@eGroups.com>

I need to create a make-shift Hogwarts-outfit within the next few weeks. I've 
tried to search the net for a really good image of the Gryffindor emblem to 
use for the patch, but in vain. (Maybe I'm just not that good at web-surfing.) 
Does anybody here know of one?

Thankyou,
Sophia




From sevothtarte at gmx.net  Wed Feb 19 20:41:26 2003
From: sevothtarte at gmx.net (Torsten)
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 21:41:26 +0100
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Gryffindor emblem?
In-Reply-To: <b30ojt+57ip@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <VRGB0465SQSPGEB7FBOKB943JHPKPJ08.3e53ebf6@tk>

Sophia:
>I need to create a make-shift Hogwarts-outfit within the next few weeks. I've 
>tried to search the net for a really good image of the Gryffindor emblem to 
>use for the patch, but in vain. (Maybe I'm just not that good at web-surfing.) 
>Does anybody here know of one?

What do you consider really good?

Try this one: http://lotronline.net/lionhearted/images/wallpaper2.jpg

Hope it's what you're looking for. ^^

-Torsten






From pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no  Wed Feb 19 20:41:50 2003
From: pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no (pengolodh_sc <pengolodh_sc@yahoo.no>)
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 20:41:50 -0000
Subject: Why nerds are unpopular
Message-ID: <b30q6e+3gke@eGroups.com>

I believe the below linked article - "Why Nerds are Unpopular", by 
Paul Graham - will be of interest to some of you.

http://www.paulgraham.com/nerds.html

Best regards
Christian Stub?




From lupinesque at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 19 20:54:58 2003
From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z <lupinesque@yahoo.com>)
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 20:54:58 -0000
Subject: filk and nimbus 2003
In-Reply-To: <b30o7v+7ft5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b30qv3+5988@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "sophiamcl <sophiamcl at h...>" 
<sophiamcl at h...> wrote:
> It doesn't look as if I'll be able to attend Nimbus 2003, but I 
still have a 
> suggestion regarding this get-together. Wouldn't it be great if it 
included a 
> filk-sing-along event?

I probably can't make it either, but I agree, a filk singalong is a 
must.

Amy




From gwendolyngrace at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 19 21:53:33 2003
From: gwendolyngrace at yahoo.com (gwendolyngrace <gwendolyngrace@yahoo.com>)
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 21:53:33 -0000
Subject: filk and Nimbus - 2003
In-Reply-To: <b30qv3+5988@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b30ucu+sr14@eGroups.com>

Salutations from the Minister of Magic for Nimbus - 2003!

Sophia Wrote:
> > It doesn't look as if I'll be able to attend Nimbus 2003, but I 
> still have a 
> > suggestion regarding this get-together. Wouldn't it be great if 
it 
> included a 
> > filk-sing-along event?
>

And Amy replied: 
> I probably can't make it either, but I agree, a filk singalong is a 
> must.


Well, here's the thing. 

1. There are issues with filk as performance. I checked with a number 
of sources, and we ran some copyright law searches. There are some 
definite issues. Nothing that can't be worked around, but the kind of 
hassle (or potential hassleand/or cost) that the Nimbus - 2003 team 
thinks would be easier circumvented by not including filk singing as 
part of the scheduled programming.

2. No one put in a proposal to run a filk sing as part of the formal 
programming. One person did ask about mounting a "musical" production 
in the evening, but that's not the same thing. I even contacted a 
couple filk mavens, but they were not planning to attend this year.

3. Our schedule is extremely full as it is. We will be running formal 
daytime programming from 8:30 am to 5:30 pm on Friday, and again from 
8:30 am to 3:30 pm on Saturday. We have to end the programming early 
on Saturday for two reasons: first, to allow people enough time to 
get dinner and for those people attending our Founders' Feast to 
travel to EPCOT, eat, and return; and second, for our Audio-Visual 
providers to have time to set up the programming rooms for our Double-
Feature Double-Feature. In addition to the programming presentations 
themselves, there will be a game room, a gallery (possibly running a 
couple workshops), a Quest, and of course, we want people to be able 
to find each other at our "Birds of a Feather" tables. Don't forget 
the night-club, Copa Banana, which will be open for wizard and witch 
partying on Friday night.


Having said all that, I will note, however, that there are a myriad 
number of good places to hang out at the Swan, including our banquet 
room with its Birds-of-a-Feather tables, at least 3 lobbies filled 
with comfy couches and chairs, and even coffee tables on which to lay 
your lyric binders, and let's not leave out attendees' hotel rooms, 
or the lounging areas at the Dolphin, at least twice as many as in 
the Swan. So, if a number of like-minded and intrepid filkers wanted 
to all sit somewhere together and break into spontaneous song... 
well, as long as you're not disturbing your neighbours, far be it 
from me to stop you.

If you ask me nicely, I might sing my house filks for you - and 
that's something you will only get at Nimbus - 2003, because I can 
guarantee you I will never post them to any HPfGU list.

Gwendolyn Grace
(who is, among other things, a professional singer and songwriter)




From urbana at charter.net  Wed Feb 19 22:58:22 2003
From: urbana at charter.net (Anne <urbana@charter.net>)
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 22:58:22 -0000
Subject: Why nerds are unpopular
In-Reply-To: <b30q6e+3gke@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b3126e+jato@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "pengolodh_sc 
<pengolodh_sc at y...>" <pengolodh_sc at y...> wrote:
> I believe the below linked article - "Why Nerds are Unpopular", by 
> Paul Graham - will be of interest to some of you.
> 
> http://www.paulgraham.com/nerds.html
> 
> Best regards
> Christian Stub?

Thank you, Christian, for pointing us to that interesting and thought-
provoking article. Yes, I was definitely a nerd, especially in high 
school (and, like the author's friend (noted in a photo on a related 
web page) I too graduated second in my class "on a technicality"). 
Hermione is probably a nerd in the sense of this article, because 
being smart and doing well in school is what matters most to her; 
once she becomes friends with Harry and Ron, she no longer seems to 
become unhinged by what the other kids might think of her. I guess 
Hermione is a fairly obvious nerd, but would Ron and/or Harry be 
considered nerds as well?

Anne U
(salutatorian, school newspaper editor, and wallflower lo those many 
years ago)





From trinity61us at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 19 20:52:37 2003
From: trinity61us at yahoo.com (alex fox)
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 12:52:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Gryffindor emblem?
In-Reply-To: <b30ojt+57ip@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20030219205237.38118.qmail@web14906.mail.yahoo.com>


"sophiamcl <sophiamcl at hotmail.com>" <sophiamcl at hotmail.com> wrote:
I need to create a make-shift Hogwarts-outfit within the next few weeks. I've 
tried to search the net for a really good image of the Gryffindor emblem to 
use for the patch, but in vain. (Maybe I'm just not that good at web-surfing.) 
Does anybody here know of one?

Thankyou,
Sophia 


If you can get your hands of a "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets" MOVIE calandar, there are some lovley full color images of the Gryffindor patch. Unfortunatly, I don't have access  to a scanner to sent you any, but good luck!

"Alex"






From slytherincess at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 20 01:30:43 2003
From: slytherincess at yahoo.com (Julie Holmes)
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 17:30:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Gryffindor Patch on eBay WAS: Gryffindor emblem?
In-Reply-To: <20030219205237.38118.qmail@web14906.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20030220013043.7940.qmail@web14807.mail.yahoo.com>

> <sophiamcl at hotmail.com> wrote:
> I need to create a make-shift Hogwarts-outfit within
> the next few weeks. I've 
> tried to search the net for a really good image of
> the Gryffindor emblem to 
> use for the patch, but in vain. 

If you would just like to buy one, they are available
on eBay. I myself sew, but it would be worth the money
to me to just buy it. Patches are HARD to make. Some
people like to create their own, but I thought I'd
just pass this along as an FYI anyway (the picture
from eBay would be a great template for you). I'm
going to error on the side of caution here and NOT
post the direct links, but just go to eBay and type in
"Gryffindor patch" and you'll get a slew of them. 
I believe they are available for all four houses as
well as Hogwarts. 

HTH,

~Julie







__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day
http://shopping.yahoo.com



From siskiou at earthlink.net  Thu Feb 20 05:37:26 2003
From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne)
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 21:37:26 -0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Questions for other rat owners
In-Reply-To: <b30484+8j8s@eGroups.com>
References: <b30484+8j8s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <69214643747.20030219213726@earthlink.net>



Hi,

Wednesday, February 19, 2003, 6:27:16 AM, macloudt at yahoo.co.uk wrote:

> So that's how an $8 rat ended up costing me $500.  And, yes, everyone 
> thought I was mad.  But I think Babette was worth it :)  IMO if you 
> have a pet you have a responsibility to give it the best possible vet 
> care, even if you have to scrounge off siblings to pay for it.

I know exactly what you mean.

Over the years we have spent hundreds of dollars in vet
bills for our gerbils and two bunnies.

We've been taking two gerbils with misaligned teeth to the
veterinarian once a month for 2 years, now, and several had
tumors removed. It may seem crazy to some people, but we'd
rather teach our daughter that a pet is a responsibility and
not just a throw away thing, when things get tough.
And we love our pets and could never just stand by and let
them suffer, if there is a way to help.

Fortunately we like to eat macaroni and cheese and
spaghetti ;)
It helps to make it until the next paycheck, if a surprise
vet bill eats up a good chunk of money.

-- 
Best regards,
 Susanne                           mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net




From sophiamcl at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 20 13:31:47 2003
From: sophiamcl at hotmail.com (sophiamcl <sophiamcl@hotmail.com>)
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 13:31:47 -0000
Subject: Gryffindor Patch 
In-Reply-To: <20030220013043.7940.qmail@web14807.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <b32lc3+tctj@eGroups.com>



Thankyou all for your kind tips on finding a Gryffindor emblem. I wasn't going 
to try to make one (maybe later) but just find one that I could print and stick 
on my chest. I did find one at the Madam Malkin's yahoo group that I think will 
work. (BTW Torsten, that wallpaper was terrific, even if it wasn't what I had in 
mind.)

Sophia




From todd_nmn at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 20 22:16:32 2003
From: todd_nmn at yahoo.com (todd_nmn <todd_nmn@yahoo.com>)
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 22:16:32 -0000
Subject: What does FILK stand for? Anything? eom
Message-ID: <b33k40+36rr@eGroups.com>






From lupinesque at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 20 23:48:29 2003
From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z <lupinesque@yahoo.com>)
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 23:48:29 -0000
Subject: What does FILK stand for? Anything? 
In-Reply-To: <b33k40+36rr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b33pgd+6ruo@eGroups.com>

It might be folk etymology, but supposedly it was originally a typo 
for "folksong."  "Filksong"-->filk.  It isn't an acronym, though I'm 
sure some clever listie could come up with an appropriate spelling-
out that would then enter the lexicon of fandoms.

Amy
casually tossing gauntlet




From enchanted at pacbell.net  Fri Feb 21 00:45:04 2003
From: enchanted at pacbell.net (Enchanted)
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 16:45:04 -0800
Subject: NEWS - Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban 
Message-ID: <007401c2d942$7a6f2b10$3b0afea9@family>

>From comingsoon.net
Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban Starts Production
Thursday, February 20, 2003 11:38 CST

Warner Bros. Pictures' Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban will
commence principal photography in Leavesden, England, on February 24, it was
announced today by Jeff Robinov, President of Production, Warner Bros.
Pictures.

Renowned actors Gary Oldman, Timothy Spall (Nicholas Nickleby), Michael
Gambon (Gosford Park), David Thewlis (Timeline), Pam Ferris (Mathilda) and
Paul Whitehouse (star of the BBC's The Fast Show) have joined the esteemed
ensemble cast of the film, which is being directed by Academy Award nominee
Alfonso Cuaron (Y Tu Mama Tambien) and produced by David Heyman, Chris
Columbus and Mark Radcliffe.

The executive producers of the film are Michael Barnathan and Callum
McDougall. The screenplay is by Steve Kloves.

In Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban, Harry Potter and his friends
Ron and Hermione return as teenagers to Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and
Wizardry for their third year of study, where they delve into the mystery
surrounding an escaped prisoner who poses a dangerous threat to the young
wizard.

"We couldn't be more excited about 'Harry Potter and the Prisoner of
Azkaban' being in the hands of such a relentlessly imaginative director as
Alfonso Cuaron, and are thrilled about the new actors he has assembled to
join our already established cast," said David Heyman.

"To be entrusted with such rich and beloved material, and given the
opportunity to collaborate with this extraordinary cast and crew on the next
Harry Potter adventure is an honor," Alfonso Cuaron said. "I look forward to
bringing this intricate story to the screen and sharing it with film
audiences around the world."

"I'm so proud to have been involved in this truly amazing film series, both
as a director and a producer," added Chris Columbus. "I look forward to
seeing it grow as Alfonso and the cast and crew further our imaginations
with their truly inspired work."

In Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban, Gary Oldman plays Sirius Black,
the eponymous prisoner whose escape is thought to pose a great threat to
Harry Potter; Michael Gambon plays the role of Professor Dumbledore,
Hogwarts' venerable headmaster; Timothy Spall portrays Peter Pettigrew, an
old friend of Harry's father, James Potter, from their days at Hogwarts;
David Thewlis plays Professor Lupin, the new Defense Against the Dark Arts
Professor who harbors a mysterious secret; Pam Ferris plays Harry's
overbearing Aunt Marge; and Paul Whitehouse portrays Sir Caddogan, a Knight
who becomes the temporary guardian of Gryffindor Tower.

Reprising their roles from Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets are
Daniel Radcliffe in the title role; Emma Watson as Hermione Granger; Rupert
Grint as Ron Weasley; Robbie Coltrane as Hagrid; David Bradley as Argus
Filch; Tom Felton as Draco Malfoy; Richard Griffiths as Uncle Vernon
Dursley; Robert Hardy as Cornelius Fudge; Alan Rickman as Professor Snape;
Fiona Shaw as Aunt Petunia Dursley; Dame Maggie Smith as Professor
McGonagall; Julie Walters as Mrs. Weasley; and Mark Williams as Mr. Weasley.

-Enchanted
Welcome to the world of Harry Potter
http://www.geocities.com/iluvnaac/enchantedcastle.html


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From belleps at october.com  Fri Feb 21 06:38:35 2003
From: belleps at october.com (Beth)
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 00:38:35 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Filk and Nimbus 2003
In-Reply-To: <1045752415.1231.79660.m12@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20030221003150.009f9720@pop.cox-internet.com>

At 02:46 PM 2/20/03 +0000, you wrote:
>Having said all that, I will note, however, that there are a myriad
>number of good places to hang out at the Swan, including our banquet
>room with its Birds-of-a-Feather tables, at least 3 lobbies filled
>with comfy couches and chairs, and even coffee tables on which to lay
>your lyric binders, and let's not leave out attendees' hotel rooms,
>or the lounging areas at the Dolphin, at least twice as many as in
>the Swan.

One thing seems to work really well at science fiction conventions I've 
been to: Place a few portable blackboards or corkboards (LARGE) at a 
convenient, often-passed place. (Somewhere in the lobby? By registration? 
Just outside the vendor area?) Let people post in-room parties and filk 
gatherings. Then interested people can just check out the boards each night 
and wander from filk to filk, or party to party. As long as the people 
staying in the room can lock their valuables somewhere (a friend's room 
next door, for example), and are willing to toss out anyone who becomes too 
unruly (infrequent, from what I've seen), it's a great system.

bel 




From skelkins at attbi.com  Fri Feb 21 21:58:20 2003
From: skelkins at attbi.com (ssk7882 <skelkins@attbi.com>)
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 21:58:20 -0000
Subject: What to do when there's no plastic sheeting
Message-ID: <b367ds+ao7g@eGroups.com>

Okay.  So last weekend a buddy of mine rented a van with a bunch of 
other Portlanders and drove all the way out to the Midwest to take 
part in a National Diplomacy competition (yeah, well, I've *told* you 
that I'm a geek, haven't I?).

On the way home Monday, they hit a patch of black ice somewhere in 
rural Wyoming.  The van skidded right off the road and into a fence.  
Fortunately, it did not roll, and no one was hurt. Unfortunately, the 
driver's side window was shattered.  And it was *cold.*  Furthermore, 
when they called the rental company to tell them what had happened, 
get the insurance information sorted out, and all of that, they were 
informed that the nearest office from which they could get a 
replacement vehicle was...

Well, was *Portland,* actually.

So.  After about an hour of going numb from the cold, they finally 
reached a general store.  This is rural Wyoming, remember.  

They then realized that what they had hoped to purchase in this store 
was...

Yup.  You guessed it.  Plastic sheeting.  And duct tape.

For future reference, should you ever need to drive long distances in 
freezing cold weather while missing a window, I have it on good 
authority that a clear plastic shower curtain actually makes an 
*excellent* stop-gap measure.  Much, much better than the usual 
plastic sheeting, in fact.

Just FYI.


Elkins




From m.bockermann at t-online.de  Fri Feb 21 20:29:45 2003
From: m.bockermann at t-online.de (m.bockermann at t-online.de)
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 21:29:45 +0100
Subject: Ultimate Unofficial Guide
References: <1045845258.276.1566.m12@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <015201c2d9f6$c2fdf280$6a269d3e@bockerma>

Hi everybody!

I was wondering if anybody has read the Ultimate Unofficial Guide to the Mysteries of Harry Potter by Galadriel Waters and Astre Mithrandir (those have to be pseudonyms or they are born to be Fantasy authors). Is it good? Or is it just a collection of theories we have discussed here in HPFGU in detail?

The reviews in online bookstores are quite good, but those must not necessarily the crowd that hangs around here.

Greetings,
Ethanol






From jmmears at comcast.net  Fri Feb 21 23:38:44 2003
From: jmmears at comcast.net (serenadust <jmmears@comcast.net>)
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 23:38:44 -0000
Subject: Diplomacy ? (Re: What to do when there's no plastic sheeting)
In-Reply-To: <b367ds+ao7g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b36da4+7sb0@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "ssk7882 <skelkins at a...>" 
<skelkins at a...> wrote:
> Okay.  So last weekend a buddy of mine rented a van with a bunch 
of 
> other Portlanders and drove all the way out to the Midwest to take 
> part in a National Diplomacy competition (yeah, well, I've *told* 
you 
> that I'm a geek, haven't I?).


Well better to be a geek than clueless.  What the heck is a 
Diplomacy Competition?  I'm envisioning a group of Alfonse & Gaston 
types bowing and scraping and saying things like "after you, sir. 
  

Jo Serenadust, very glad Elkins' friends are all ok




From penumbra10 at ameritech.net  Sat Feb 22 00:33:17 2003
From: penumbra10 at ameritech.net (Nia <penumbra10@ameritech.net>)
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 00:33:17 -0000
Subject: Ultimate Unofficial Guide
In-Reply-To: <015201c2d9f6$c2fdf280$6a269d3e@bockerma>
Message-ID: <b36ggd+72ju@eGroups.com>

 m.bockermann wrote:
> Hi everybody!
> 
> I was wondering if anybody has read the Ultimate Unofficial Guide 
to the Mysteries of Harry Potter by Galadriel Waters and Astre 
Mithrandir (those have to be pseudonyms or they are born to be 
Fantasy authors). Is it good? Or is it just a collection of theories 
we have discussed here in HPFGU in detail?<snip>

Me:
I bought it.  I suppose now that potential writers see they stand to 
make a bit of income from Harry, we're liable to see a virtual 
landslide of these "guides" to Harry's world.  
The tome is 409 pages and based on the premise that JKR has a rather 
simple pattern of weaving clues into her books.  The fundamental 
idea is as follows:
1- If JKR reinforces i.e.repeats an idea, clue action, she means it 
and wants us to remember it
2- If she suddenly interrupts something, she's hiding a key clue
3- There is no such thing as a coincidence
4- Don't take a character's word for it (They sometimes see things 
from a skewed perspective)
Also to be noted: *"Ron is usually wrong, except when he's joking, 
then he's usually right."
       *"Hermione is usually right, unless she becomes emotional, 
then she's usually wrong."

The authors explored the four books in the series and uncovered 
their findings, but these are not exactly delineated out for the 
reader.  They assume the reader of the HP books is doing so with 
their "guide" in hand, so they don't give things away outright but 
more as guided hints, with numerous references to their "sleuthing 
manifesto."  
As most of the posters to this group, I've read the HP books more 
times than I'd care to admit to non-fans and the "guide" was still 
able to point out things I hadn't seen before.  There are 
tantalizing references to characters that I completely ignored 
before and I was encouraged to re-read canon in light of the clues 
from this book to see if they pass muster.  For the most part they 
do, however, the authors still don't seem to have a great handle on 
the heart of the characters, as most "group" posters do, nor do they 
make any feasible predictions, at least IMHO.  One of their pet 
theories is completely debunked by canon evidence, yet, they make 
you wonder...  Also, if you're looking for SHIP evidence, you will 
have to apply their clues for yourself.  They seem to lean H/R, but 
they are not overt about it.  As a lover of pumpkin pie, I could 
well see an overwhelming pattern (using their clue guide) which 
supports H/Hr.   If you are looking for believable OoP and beyond 
predictions here, you'll find a few tidbits, but for the most part, 
their ideas seem completely unrelated to the story JKR has so 
carefully been crafting.
As a guide, it's immensely more useful than that tiny little 
pamphlet of Philip Nel's which proudly proclaims that the "emblem of 
Gryffindor House is a griffin" [not a lion]!?!?!?! At least 
Galadriel Waters and company respect the material they are 
analyzing.  
Hope this was helpful. E-mail me with any further questions.
--Nia




From drednort at alphalink.com.au  Sat Feb 22 00:39:11 2003
From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately)
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 11:39:11 +1100
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Diplomacy ? (Re: What to do when there's no plastic sheeting)
In-Reply-To: <b36da4+7sb0@eGroups.com>
References: <b367ds+ao7g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3E57615F.4561.4C2C6E0@localhost>

On 21 Feb 2003 at 23:38, serenadust jmmears at comcast.ne wrote:

> Well better to be a geek than clueless.  What the heck is a 
> Diplomacy Competition?  I'm envisioning a group of Alfonse & Gaston 
> types bowing and scraping and saying things like "after you, sir. 

Board game - basically a war game on a board - probably one of the most popular 
boardgames around, but not as well known as some others. It has championships all 
over the world.

Suppose this is a good opportunity for me to mention that I am running my second Harry 
Potter Roleplaying Game at this years Conquest games convention in Melbourne, 
Australia (I ran one last year as well). There's kind of a link - the Victorian Diplomacy 
Championships are held at the same con.



Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought
Shaun Hately |webpage: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html
(ISTJ)       |email: drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200

                       "Almighty Ruler of the all;
                 Whose power extends to great and small;
                 Who guides the stars with steadfast law;
                   Whose least creation fills with awe;
                     Oh grant thy mercy and thy grace;
                     To those who venture into space."




From judy at judyshapiro.com  Sat Feb 22 09:25:13 2003
From: judy at judyshapiro.com (Judy <judy@judyshapiro.com>)
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 09:25:13 -0000
Subject: What to do when there's no plastic sheeting
In-Reply-To: <b367ds+ao7g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b37flp+cq8m@eGroups.com>

Elkins wrote:
> Okay.  So last weekend a buddy of mine rented a van with a bunch of 
> other Portlanders and drove all the way out to the Midwest to take 
> part in a National Diplomacy competition 

Although I knew that Diplomacy is a board game, I prefer to imagine a
"Midwest National Diplomacy Competition" as a series of high-level
talks, where Secretaries of State from all over the US meet and try to
end the horrible border war between Iowa and Indiana. 

Elkins, I'm wondering what your friends substituted for duct tape. 
(And why didn't they have a supply of duct tape with them?  True geeks
know that duct tape is the vital "Fifth Force" holding together the
universe. Don't leave home without it!)

-- Judy, likewise glad that Elkins' friends were OK  




From abigailnus at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 22 09:47:34 2003
From: abigailnus at yahoo.com (abigailnus <abigailnus@yahoo.com>)
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 09:47:34 -0000
Subject: What to do when there's no plastic sheeting
In-Reply-To: <b367ds+ao7g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b37gvm+nojb@eGroups.com>

Ah... plastic sheeting.  That takes me back.  Here in Israel, the 
government has had to step in to prevent price-hiking.  My 
mother has been trying to decide which room in our house to 
seal up if and when it becomes necessary - as it turns out, the 
room we used last time around has a porous cieling!

But if you want to trade funny plastic sheeting-related stories, 
I'm afraid I'm going to win.  I was 10 during the first Gulf War, 
and I remeber it mostly as one big joke.  That's a fairly common 
reaction among people my age.  After all, there's so much to 
laugh about - an entire country collectively paralysed for over a 
month, people lugging gas masks wherever they go, the almost 
religious adoration of the then-Spokesperson for the Military, 
whose very face on the TV screen gave you a warm fuzzy 
feeling inside.  And for kids - the fact that the schools all closed 
down, and we'd show up in groups of 5 once a week for a 
"lesson".  The fact that everyone, and I do mean *everyone* 
decorated their gas mask box with wrapping paper or pages cut 
from comic strips.  The special shows they put on all day to keep 
the house-bound kids entertained (Israeli commercial television 
traces its origin directly to the Gulf War).  And for me personally 
- the way my dog used to be in the sealed room before the rest 
of us had even registered the air-raid siren.  The way my mother 
kept us entrertained by making cookies (there's a recipe that we 
all loved so much that to this day was call them Saddam Hussein 
cookies).  The way that, after much coaxing and pleading, I got 
three of my brother's friends to come over, each with a parent 
surgically attached, for his 4th birthday party.  The entire thing 
was an excercise in absurdity.

Well, at least I have something to look forward to.

Abigail





From plumeski at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 22 14:19:17 2003
From: plumeski at yahoo.com (GulPlum <plumeski@yahoo.com>)
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 14:19:17 -0000
Subject: Ultimate Unofficial Guide
In-Reply-To: <015201c2d9f6$c2fdf280$6a269d3e@bockerma>
Message-ID: <b380t5+7jeg@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, m.bockermann at t... wrote:
> Hi everybody!
> 
> I was wondering if anybody has read the Ultimate Unofficial Guide 
to the Mysteries of Harry Potter by Galadriel Waters and Astre 
Mithrandir (those have to be pseudonyms or they are born to be 
Fantasy authors). Is it good? Or is it just a collection of theories 
we have discussed here in HPFGU in detail?

I've not read the book, and have no intention of buying it. 

"Galdriel Waters" participated in a few discussions on alt.fan.harry-
potter last autumn (or "fall" for you Americans) :-) and revealed 
some of her ideas and theories. She first turned up asking for beta-
readers for her manuscript, and I know that one of the afh-p regulars 
whose opinion I've grown to respect read it and wasn't all that 
impressed. Even so, he did admit that despite having participated on 
online HP fandom for over two years, some of her ideas were 
completely novel, and a few were really worth thinking about 
(although he didn't go into detail).

Apart from her style which I found exceptionally off-putting (I got 
into a bit of an exchange of unpleasantries about it with her at one 
stage; a minor irritant was her refusal to use any upper-case letters 
in anything she wrote), I think all of the original theories she 
presented in afh-p were pretty much dismissed by the majority of 
people. 

Apparently, a lot of the book's contents are theories which have been 
doing the rounds online, but it seems as if she came up with them all 
independently. Regrettably, some of her theories also appear to 
depend on her having been unaware of some of the things JKR has said 
in interviews etc.

I'm not sure if my lack of interest in this book is because of the 
mutual personal animosity we developed from the start, or whether I 
felt the few theories she presented didn't hold water and so I'm not 
interested in hearing the rest, so do bear in mind that is an 
extremely *personal* opinion of her efforts and not based on first-
hand knowledge of the book.

To give you a flavour, "Harry is the Heir of Gryffindor" is one of 
the cornerstones of her thesis, and one of her far-out theories is 
that James Potter and Lupin performed a Switching Spell on themselves 
before the Halloween attack, and thus Lupin is in fact James.

You can get a taste of her ideas in the Google usenet archive:

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-
1&q=Galadriel+Waters&meta=

(the "switching" idea was discussed just recently in her absence, 
following publication of the book, starting with this post:

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-
8&threadm=3E4FFB55.4B669C3C%40ThisIsFake.dk&rnum=31&prev=/&frame=on)

-- 
GulPlum AKA Richard, who remains curious about other peop;es' views 
on the book in question





From firekat482 at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 22 14:56:12 2003
From: firekat482 at yahoo.com (firekat482 <firekat482@yahoo.com>)
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 14:56:12 -0000
Subject: What to do when there's no plastic sheeting
In-Reply-To: <b37flp+cq8m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b3832c+l8c9@eGroups.com>

"Judy <judy at j...>" <judy at j...> wrote:
>Although I knew that Diplomacy is a board game, I prefer to imagine a
>"Midwest National Diplomacy Competition" as a series of high-level
>talks, where Secretaries of State from all over the US meet and try 
>to end the horrible border war between Iowa and Indiana. 

Whoa, hang on a minute. There is no way Iowa and Indiana can have a 
border war. Mostly because a little state called Illinois sits 
between them. Seriously, everybody always forgets about us. 
Especially with all the Iowans and Indianans trouncing through the 
state bickering and starting fights. (lol, I'm just joking here, 
people. I've been in both Iowa and Indiana and they are lovely places 
with lovely people, so please don't take offense.)

~Jean, an Illinoian who is proud of her state, but wishes that it was 
slightly farther south so winter wouldn't be quite so cold and snowy.




From HogwartsSchoolWW at aol.com  Sat Feb 22 23:35:28 2003
From: HogwartsSchoolWW at aol.com (HogwartsSchoolWW at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 18:35:28 EST
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: What to do when there's no plastic sheeting
Message-ID: <190.160c651a.2b896340@aol.com>

Abigail,

Wow!  Your insight into your feelings and memories of the Gulf War were very 
enlightening.  Thank you for sharing them.  You were very courageous at only 
ten.  I just joined this list, so I hope I'm not breaking any rules by 
answering your post.  (or upsetting anyone)  lol  I get so bogged down with 
my own emotions and perspectives, that sometimes I forget the regulations.  I 
enjoyed hearing about your memories.  Right now I feel as if the duct tape 
suggestion is exactly as one article described the "duck and cover" tactic of 
the Cold War.

Thanks,
Amy



From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca  Sat Feb 22 23:36:23 2003
From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (lucky_kari <lucky_kari@yahoo.ca>)
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 23:36:23 -0000
Subject: Earliest Memories of the World Outside (was Forcing Kids To Watch History Made)
In-Reply-To: <b248k9+h5ae@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b391hn+t3rs@eGroups.com>

While Elkins lived a horrible childhood underneath real cameras 
disguised as sprinklers, I, of course, lived a childhood under 
sprinklers which I thought were cameras. 

In fact, it was only in Grade 11 that I mentioned to someone 
something about not doing something in front of that video camera 
over there, and they said , "What? That's a sprinkler."

So, except when I was home, where my parents didn't have a sprinkler 
system, I lived with the knowledge that I was under pretty much 
constant surveillance.

I lived in the Police State and I survived!

Amy Z wrote:
>Eileen, your childhood take on political reality made me LMAO. 
>The world must have seemed a very exciting, if dangerous, place. 
>And I would love to meet your parents.

Oh, they're very ordinary. Molly and Arthur Weasley. Do you think 
they did anything to encourage my paranoiac fantasies? Now, as a 
kid, I thought they were very twisted and strange people, because 
they both were fans of a horrible book where the hero was a 
murderer, and sympathized with him. 

That boggled my mind. 

Years later, I read the book: "Crime and Punishment," and was very 
amused by my childhood memory.

Eileen




From skelkins at attbi.com  Sun Feb 23 01:04:52 2003
From: skelkins at attbi.com (ssk7882 <skelkins@attbi.com>)
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 01:04:52 -0000
Subject: What to do when there's no plastic sheeting
In-Reply-To: <b37flp+cq8m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b396nk+1lsc@eGroups.com>

Abigail wrote:

> But if you want to trade funny plastic sheeting-related 
> stories, I'm afraid I'm going to win.

<the complacent American attempts to bow out gracefully>

Err, yes.  I suppose that the humour implicit in the entire idea of 
a "run" on plastic sheeting does undergo a rather serious change in 
hue once the milieu shifts from rural Wyoming to Israel, doesn't it?

Sorry, Abigail.

Fascinating memories of life during wartime!  I was rather older than 
you at the time of the Gulf War, of course, but I distinctly remember 
the first time that one of our foreign correspondents reporting from 
your part of the world appeared on television wearing a gas mask.  It 
was terrifying.

> Well, at least I have something to look forward to.

List regulations, alas, prevent me from saying much that I would like 
to here -- other than, of course, that my thoughts are with you.

Judy asked:

> Elkins, I'm wondering what your friends substituted for duct 
> tape. And why didn't they have a supply of duct tape with them? 

They didn't have a supply of duct tape with them because it was a 
rented van, and True Geeks though they may be, they just hadn't 
thought to bring any with them.

They did not, however, have to substitute anything for the duct tape, 
as apparently Wyoming ranchers, much like True Geeks, know that duct 
tape is the vital "Fifth Force" holding together the universe and 
therefore already had plenty on hand in their homes.  The store was 
therefore quite well-stocked with duct tape.  It just had no more 
plastic sheeting.


Elkins




From ameliagoldfeesh at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 23 01:51:44 2003
From: ameliagoldfeesh at yahoo.com (ameliagoldfeesh <ameliagoldfeesh@yahoo.com>)
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 01:51:44 -0000
Subject: Rats and Iowa  wars
Message-ID: <b399fg+trua@eGroups.com>

 
It has been interesting reading everyone's rat stories.  Fortunately 
my rat seems to be doing well again and using her hind leg.  I am 
keeping a close eye on her however.  If it happens again I'll call a 
vet.  Thanks to all those who replied. :) 


In my part of Iowa (formly western and now Ames) we only have two 
main foes- Nebraska and the University of Iowa.  Both of whom we 
defeated on battleground of ISU football this last year.  In fact, 
Iowa (UI) went on to be undefeated except for ISU this year.  Plus 
beating UNL is very very rare treat. *g*

A Goldfeesh
   Well my heart's in The Highlands at the break of day
over the hills and far away
There's a way to get there, and I'll figure it out somehow
Well I'm already there in my mind and that's good enough for now
     Dylan, Highlands
    





From slytherincess at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 23 02:48:34 2003
From: slytherincess at yahoo.com (Julie Holmes)
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 18:48:34 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Rats and Iowa  wars
In-Reply-To: <b399fg+trua@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20030223024834.47669.qmail@web14803.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "ameliagoldfeesh <ameliagoldfeesh at yahoo.com>"
<ameliagoldfeesh at yahoo.com> wrote:
> In my part of Iowa (formly western and now Ames) we
> only have two 
> main foes- Nebraska and the University of Iowa. 
> Both of whom we 
> defeated on battleground of ISU football this last
> year.  In fact, 
> Iowa (UI) went on to be undefeated except for ISU
> this year.  Plus 
> beating UNL is very very rare treat. *g*

Woo Hoo! I'm for *ANY* team that beats Nebraska. I
refuse to root for Nebraska under any circumstances. I
know it's totally ridiculous, but being a CU Boulder
alumni...well. It goes without saying. My father's
family is from Iowa-Denison, to be exact (home town of
Donna Reed!). My husband and I briefly lived in Omaha,
NE, from May to Aug 1, 1999, and loathed it. The heat
and humidity was just unbearable. But I did like the
fireflies in Nebraska, and the wicked thunderstorms
that came in the middle of the night. They were
absolutely spectacular-truly. And I will say that I've
never seen green grass like I did in Omaha. That
probably sounds strange, but it was so green (from all
the humidity, I'm sure) that it practically glowed.

(Of course I couldn't hang my CU flag up...I'm sure we
would have been harrassed. Football is practically the
state religion there-Nebraska, that is). 

~Julie

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/



From urbana at charter.net  Sun Feb 23 05:01:57 2003
From: urbana at charter.net (Anne <urbana@charter.net>)
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 05:01:57 -0000
Subject: What to do when there's no plastic sheeting
In-Reply-To: <b37flp+cq8m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b39kk5+83d0@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Judy <judy at j...>" 
<judy at j...> wrote:
 I prefer to imagine a
> "Midwest National Diplomacy Competition" as a series of high-level
> talks, where Secretaries of State from all over the US meet and try 
to
> end the horrible border war between Iowa and Indiana. 
>
That's gotta be some looooong border... since the entire state of 
ILLINOIS lies between Indiana and Iowa :-)

Anne U
(in Wisconsin, which is east of Iowa and north of Illinois and 
doesn't touch Indiana at all)





From urbana at charter.net  Sun Feb 23 06:09:45 2003
From: urbana at charter.net (Anne R Urbanski)
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 00:09:45 -0600
Subject: Fwd: FIRE SAFETY!!!
Message-ID: <4.2.2.20030223000838.00bfa390@localhost>



>Here's something I sent to some of my music friends tonight. (yes I do 
>have a life beyond Harry Potter) ... the Rhode Island fire has weighed 
>heavily on my mind the past 2 days....
>
>Anne U
>
>
>>To: Monte-Montgomery at yahoogroups.com
>>From: Anne R Urbanski <urbana at charter.net>
>>Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 23:46:41 -0600
>>Subject: [MM] FIRE SAFETY!!!
>>
>>At 04:08 AM 2/22/03 -0600, KaTman wrote:
>> >The entire GTR personel had a meeting first to fill
>> >everyone in on all aspects of emergency procedures in light of the
>> >Rhode Island tragedy. One of them told me much attention through
>> >the day was spent making sure all exit lights were well lit, etc.
>> >I noticed a maximum occupancy (731 I think?) sign was very visable
>> >just inside the front door.
>>
>>
>>First of all, thanks again, KaTman, for your very informative review about
>>last night's show. In all seriousness, I do want to second what you've said
>>here and emphasize to people (in light of the tragedy in Rhode Island) the
>>utmost importance of being aware of your surroundings when you attend any
>>rock show, especially one in a smaller venue or in a venue you might not
>>have visited before. If you go with friends, make sure to talk with them
>>about where you will all meet *outside* if you should have to leave the
>>building in an emergency. And just as important, when you get into the
>>venue, be sure to look around carefully and note the location of ALL exits
>>(not merely the door through which you entered the room).
>>
>>Heaven forbid that any of y'all should ever be in a situation like what
>>happened in Rhode Island, or anything vaguely like that, but I can't
>>emphasize this enough. I'm saying this not only only as a music fan and a
>>friend to many of you on this list, but also as someone who (many years
>>ago) spent 4 years reviewing building plans to make sure they met Wisconsin
>>fire safety and related regulations. Back when I was a plan reviewer, I
>>could pretty much walk into any public building and tell you exactly what
>>was wrong with it --  exits too far apart, or exit stairs too narrow,
>>broken exit lights, etc. Back then there was a rock club here in Madison
>>called Merlin's, and I was always terrified to attend shows there, because
>>the place was rife with fire-code violations - including some very
>>flammable-looking material covering most of the walls, and at least one
>>very narrow stairway that was supposed to double as a fire-exit from this
>>second-story venue.
>>
>>Anyway ... better safe than oh so sorry, my friends. PLEASE keep your wits
>>about you at shows, especially if you aren't familiar with the venue. The
>>National Fire Protection Association has posted a special web page full of
>>pertinent information. I hope y'all will check it out.
>>
>><http://www.nfpa.org/Research/FireInvestigation/RIslandFire/rhode_island_fir
>>e.asp>
>>
>>Anne
>>(please, be careful out there)
>

"In this wormhole, anything is possible. Somewhere, the Cubs are winning 
the World Series." - John Crichton, "Farscape"

"Anyone could be the one to change your life" -- Monte Montgomery
http://www.montemontgomery.com








From HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com  Sun Feb 23 16:02:41 2003
From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com (HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 23 Feb 2003 16:02:41 -0000
Subject: Reminder - Weekly Chat 
Message-ID: <1046016161.47.13257.m1@yahoogroups.com>


We would like to remind you of this upcoming event.

Weekly Chat 

Date: Sunday, February 23, 2003 
Time: 11:00AM - 7:00PM CST (GMT-06:00) 

Hi everyone! Don't forget, chat happens today, 11 am Pacific, 2
pm Eastern, 7 pm UK time. Go into any Yahoo chat room and type
/join HP:1 
For further info, see the Humongous BigFile, section 3.3.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/hbfile.html#33

Hope to see you there! 

 





From Malady579 at hotmail.com  Sun Feb 23 16:05:15 2003
From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody <Malady579@hotmail.com>)
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 16:05:15 -0000
Subject: football cults  (was: Rats and Iowa wars)
In-Reply-To: <20030223024834.47669.qmail@web14803.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <b3arfr+cl5m@eGroups.com>

Julie wrote:
>>Football is practically the state religion there-Nebraska, that is.


Try living in Texas.  Football is god here.

Not that I am complaining.  Ever since I was eleven, they let me beat
a drum while tromping all over their muddy fields during halftime, so
my life has been good.


Melody




From melclaros at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 23 18:06:55 2003
From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros <melclaros@yahoo.com>)
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 18:06:55 -0000
Subject: What to do when there's no plastic sheeting
In-Reply-To: <b39kk5+83d0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b3b2jv+5dv3@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Anne <urbana at c...>" 
<urbana at c...> > >
> That's gotta be some looooong border... since the entire state of 
> ILLINOIS lies between Indiana and Iowa :-)
  

That's the Neutral Zone!

Mel




From gwendolyngrace at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 23 20:24:53 2003
From: gwendolyngrace at yahoo.com (gwendolyngrace <gwendolyngrace@yahoo.com>)
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 20:24:53 -0000
Subject: Ultimate Unofficial Guide
In-Reply-To: <b380t5+7jeg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b3baml+cqsf@eGroups.com>

Well, 

After reading Nia's and GulPlum's comments, I am emboldened.

I bought it too, looking for possible guests to invite to Nimbus - 
2003. 

I glanced through it a bit, but found its format both condescending, 
ala GulPlum, and, as Nia says, without a lot of the heart that's in 
the books. 

I'm sure there's a lot in there that people may not get on their own, 
but a lot of her connections are tenuous and some are downright 
beyond left field. I wasn't familiar with her "Heir of Gryffindor" 
theory, GulPlum - like I said, I really glanced at it and got utterly 
turned off within moments. Still, I got the sense that she saw 
Significance in so many factors in the books that there's hardly 
anything left in them that is Insignificant. Every veiled reference, 
whether integral to the plot or not, gets presented like a smoking 
gun. I also didn't see a whole lot of supported arguments - more just 
her opinion (and whomever else she happened to have working with 
her... though perhaps GulPlum is right about how she managed that).

I took some umbrage at her assumption that some of the readers were 
looking for a combination of Cliffs' Notes for the plot (I mean, 
seriously, was *anyone* really surprised that the potion Snape brings 
Lupin is Important and A Clue?) and a Bullfinch's Guide of sorts for 
the literary allusions, all of which are pretty easy to discover, if 
not patently obvious from the start (again, does she really think we 
need to be *told* that Sirius is the dogstar, and also that "Sirius 
Black" means Black Dog? Maybe the twelve-year-olds, but... Yeesh).

I have something else to say, and I held off because I wasn't sure 
whether this was just an unfounded impression, but given GulPlum's 
personal interaction with her, I think I can say this without getting 
in terrible trouble... I'm a little uncomfortable that the book is 
presented as something "by fans, for fans" and yet she seems not to 
be very interested in the scope and breadth of the fandom. Okay, her 
site has a few links. But while I fervently hope she comes and adds 
yet another dimension to Nimbus - 2003, she was, let's say, not as 
enthusiastic as I thought she'd be to hear such a thing existed, 
claiming as she does in her book intro to be such a rabid HP fanatic. 

Maybe it's lack of time, maybe I'm completely barking up the wrong 
tree. Maybe she just hates conventions. But she doesn't seem eager to 
connect to a large chunk of the fandom. From this and from some of 
her other interactions I know about (the names shall go unmentioned 
to protect the innocent), it sounds like she has her own agenda. 

Add to this GulPlum's statement:
> Apparently, a lot of the book's contents are theories which have 
been 
> doing the rounds online, but it seems as if she came up with them 
all 
> independently. Regrettably, some of her theories also appear to 
> depend on her having been unaware of some of the things JKR has 
said 
> in interviews etc.

And... yeah. Well. 


Like I said, just an impression. Hope I'm proven wrong. But it's just 
a little hinky.

Gwen

P.S. Nia, are you aware that Dr. Nel is a member of HPfGU? I can 
assure you that even though he had some errors in the continuum book, 
he does care quite a bit about HP. Bear in mind, too, that his book 
is part of a series that has certain requirements and restrictions. 
(He's also a featured speaker at Nimbus! /obligatory Nimbus plug)




From the.gremlin at verizon.net  Mon Feb 24 02:02:47 2003
From: the.gremlin at verizon.net (the.gremlin at verizon.net)
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 20:02:47 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Ultimate Unofficial Guide
Message-ID: <20030224020247.UKUN10203.pop017.verizon.net@[192.168.129.99]>

Gwen:
"I took some umbrage at her assumption that some of the readers were looking for a combination of Cliffs' Notes for the plot (I mean, seriously, was *anyone* really surprised that the potion Snape brings Lupin is Important and A Clue?) and a Bullfinch's Guide of sorts for the literary allusions, all of which are pretty easy to discover, if not patently obvious from the start (again, does she really think we need to be *told* that Sirius is the dogstar, and also that "Sirius Black" means Black Dog? Maybe the twelve-year-olds, but... Yeesh)."

In defense of the supposedly uneducated, I did not find out about a lot of the literary stuff in HP until I joined this group. I do not regularly study Latin and/or astronomy, so I did not know that "Sirius Black" means Black Dog. And I am not not 12, I'm 18. Granted, some of you may be more educated then I am, and have finished college. However, there are no classes that I can take at my college that would tell me that Remus Lupin is an obvious reference to the fact that he's a werewolf, duh, you're stupid for not seeing it on the first reading.

I have taken a look at this book, and while I found it a little intersting, I realized that most of the theories she presents in her books can easily be found here. I suppose a potential buyer of the book would have to decide which they would rather have: a book that will tell you everything straight off, or a 5,000 (is that the number?)+ group who debate their pet theories (in a rather enjoyable way, I might add)? I refer watching you all duke it out, and adding my random comment. 

However, I don't think we should automatically assume that *everyone* knows Sirius was going to be a black dog Animagus upon hearing his name for the first time and seeing that black dog for the first time. I didn't, does that make me stupid?

-Acire, who got deja vu typing that last sentance..., and who did notice that the postion Snape brought was important...just didn't know why (yes, i know now).


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From plumeski at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 24 03:10:57 2003
From: plumeski at yahoo.com (GulPlum <plumeski@yahoo.com>)
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 03:10:57 -0000
Subject: Ultimate Unofficial Guide
In-Reply-To: <20030224020247.UKUN10203.pop017.verizon.net@[192.168.129.99]>
Message-ID: <b3c2g1+shkt@eGroups.com>

A question to those who've read this book...

Does my online experience of her poor command of English syntax, 
grammar and punctuation extend to the book? When I suggested to her 
that she could do with having her manuscript proof-read (rather than 
just beta-read by a fan which was her overture) she blew up at me and 
suggested that her command of English was second to none.  Of course, 
the message was written so poorly that I wondered what business she 
had attempting to analyze a book written in exemplary English. 

Whether this is down to JKR or her editors and proof-readers I don't 
know, but I don't think I've encountered a single typo, misplaced 
apostrophe or comma, or badly-structured sentence (despite some 
sentences being very complicated syntactically) in the four books to 
date. (Yes, there are a few Flints, but they're all written in 
textbook English.) :-)

I'm particularly touchy about those kinds of things and it's one of 
the reasons I gave up on reading Stephen King when I was about 16 
because I kept noticing typos and poorly-constructed sentences.

Incidentally, and I don't mean to talk down to anyone but I'm 
curious: do American schools not teach proper use of apostrophes any 
more? (In particular when to use "it's" -v- "its", and correct usage 
of "there/their/they're" or "your/you're".) Even in HPFGU I 
frequently find people who seem to be native speakers who appear 
never to have been taught the difference. 

I'll be brutally honest here: For instance, use of "The Durlsey's" as 
a nominative plural (viz. several posts on the mail list in the last 
24 hours, hence my pre-occupation with this issue at this very 
moment) causes me physical irritation. 

I repeat: I really, honestly, do not mean to make a personal attack 
on any HPFGUer, talk down to anyone, or to call anyone stupid. After 
all, if people aren't taught these things, they can hardly be 
expected to know. As I said at the top, it's a straightforward 
question: do American schools no longer teach these things?

(from my personal experience, all I ever needed to cover all these 
issues was one English lesson at the age of 8.)

-- 
GulPlum AKA Richard, who would like to apologise in advance for any 
offence anyone may have felt reading the above. ABSOLUTELY none was 
intended. 

(I would also like to apologise to those in the chat this evening for 
my sudden departure caused by computer problems, rapidly followed by 
dinner and being called out for several hours.)





From rvotaw at i-55.com  Mon Feb 24 03:19:01 2003
From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw)
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 21:19:01 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Ultimate Unofficial Guide
References: <b3c2g1+shkt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <008b01c2dbb3$7a9c2e80$4a9dcdd1@RVotaw>

GulPlum wrote:

> Incidentally, and I don't mean to talk down to anyone but I'm 
> curious: do American schools not teach proper use of apostrophes any 
> more? (In particular when to use "it's" -v- "its", and correct usage 
> of "there/their/they're" or "your/you're".) Even in HPFGU I 
> frequently find people who seem to be native speakers who appear 
> never to have been taught the difference. 

I haven't read the book in question (yet, though I suspect I will eventually, if nothing else to entertain myself until OotP is out), but I will jump in to defend my country.  :)  Yes, American schools most definitely teach all of the above.  As early as first grade, I can verify that, I teach it myself.  I can't promise that they learn it, but I do teach it.  I can sympathize with you, though, since as a teacher I notice that sort of thing more than most Americans probably do.  I find it very difficult to have a normal conversation with anyone (online or otherwise) without correcting their grammar.  I frequently bite my tongue to prevent something coming out, I know most adults don't want to be corrected by a first grade teacher.  

Still, we all make mistakes at some time or another, I suppose.  Myself, commas drive me insane.  "They" (whoever "they" are) keep changing the rule about commas and when to use them.  The latest inservice I went to basically says I'm doing it all wrong.  I didn't bother to change, though, since by the time I would get it straight "they" will change it back anyway.

If you see me making major grammatial and punctual errors, you can pass it off to overwork for the day. :)  

Richelle


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From devika at sas.upenn.edu  Mon Feb 24 04:27:43 2003
From: devika at sas.upenn.edu (Devika <devika@sas.upenn.edu>)
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 04:27:43 -0000
Subject: Ultimate Unofficial Guide
In-Reply-To: <b3c2g1+shkt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b3c6vv+erqe@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "GulPlum <plumeski at y...>" 
<plumeski at y...> wrote:
> 
> Incidentally, and I don't mean to talk down to anyone but I'm 
> curious: do American schools not teach proper use of apostrophes 
any 
> more? (In particular when to use "it's" -v- "its", and correct 
usage 
> of "there/their/they're" or "your/you're".) Even in HPFGU I 
> frequently find people who seem to be native speakers who appear 
> never to have been taught the difference. 
> 
> I'll be brutally honest here: For instance, use of "The Durlsey's" 
as 
> a nominative plural (viz. several posts on the mail list in the 
last 
> 24 hours, hence my pre-occupation with this issue at this very 
> moment) causes me physical irritation. 
> 
> I repeat: I really, honestly, do not mean to make a personal attack 
> on any HPFGUer, talk down to anyone, or to call anyone stupid. 
After 
> all, if people aren't taught these things, they can hardly be 
> expected to know. As I said at the top, it's a straightforward 
> question: do American schools no longer teach these things?
> 
> (from my personal experience, all I ever needed to cover all these 
> issues was one English lesson at the age of 8.)
> 


Hmmm...how do I reply to this without offending anyone?  Well, first 
of all, yes, American schools do teach proper use of apostrophes.  
However, as Richelle pointed out, that doesn't guarantee that the 
students will learn it.  In my experience, many people do misuse 
apostrophes quite frequently.  I'm not really sure what the reason 
for this is, since American schools teach apostrophe usage and other 
grammar beginning in elementary school and continuing throughout high 
school.  However, for some reason, many intelligent people graduate 
from high school thinking that adding "apostrophe + s" at the end of 
a singular noun will make it plural.  My little sister, for example, 
is in middle school now, and she frequently misuses these words.  
She's a very bright kid, she's been reading since the age of three or 
four, and she's never gotten less than an A in any class, including 
English.  However, for some reason, she mixes up "you're" and "your," 
as well as "to" and "too" sometimes.  I could rant more about all of 
this, but that wouldn't serve any purpose since I really don't know 
what the reason for it is.  

I'm certainly not saying that everyone makes these mistakes.  After 
all, I'm American, I graduated from an American public school system, 
and seeing grammar mistakes and incorrect apostrophe usage literally 
makes me cringe.  (Of course, now that I've said all of that, I'm 
sure someone will find some grammatical error that I've made in this 
post myself <g>.)

However, I do sympathize with you since I'm touchy about these things 
as well.  

I hope I haven't offended anyone in this post--I certainly don't mean 
to.  (It's funny how I'm so concerned about offending people; after 
all, we're talking about *grammar* here, not politics or 
religion :).) 

Devika, who happens to be a double science major, for the record :)




From the.gremlin at verizon.net  Mon Feb 24 04:59:25 2003
From: the.gremlin at verizon.net (the.gremlin at verizon.net)
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 22:59:25 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Ultimate Unofficial Guide
Message-ID: <20030224045925.YAOI1680.pop018.verizon.net@[172.17.10.210]>

GulPlum:
"Whether this is down to JKR or her editors and proof-readers I don't know, but I don't think I've encountered a single typo, misplaced apostrophe or comma, or badly-structured sentence (despite some sentences being very complicated syntactically) in the four books to date. (Yes, there are a few Flints, but they're all written in textbook English.) :-)"

I have actually found a few errors. There were some spelling errors, but also a left-out word, and I think I may have found a grammatical error. I could be wrong, I'd have to read the books again to find them. I don't know if this is JKR or just the printer or something. 

Also noticed that JKR like semi-colons. Found a lot of those.
    
"Incidentally, and I don't mean to talk down to anyone but I'm curious: do American schools not teach proper use of apostrophes any more? (In particular when to use "it's" -v- "its", and correct usage of "there/their/they're" or "your/you're".) Even in HPFGU I frequently find people who seem to be native speakers who appear never to have been taught the difference."

I think it depends on your education, how much you paid attention in school, and where you went to school. I have friends who took regular English/grammar classes, who will ignore or don't care about the difference. Once you point it out to them, they say, "oh, okay, thanks."

OTOH, I am a grammar Nazi (and I tend to have grammatical errors in posts talking about grammar; irony for you), and my friends fear having me look over their essays. So it depends on a bunch of factors.

-Acire, who apologizes for those grammar errors that evilly (is that a word?) popped up in her post because she was talking about grammar.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From annemehr at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 24 05:22:49 2003
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr <annemehr@yahoo.com>)
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 05:22:49 -0000
Subject: Beating a Drum (was:Re: football cults  (was: Rats and Iowa wars))
In-Reply-To: <b3arfr+cl5m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b3ca79+soee@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Melody <Malady579 at h...>" 
<Malady579 at h...> wrote:

> Try living in Texas.  Football is god here.
> 
> Not that I am complaining.  Ever since I was eleven, they let me 
beat
> a drum while tromping all over their muddy fields during halftime, 
so
> my life has been good.
> 


Oh, so you're in the *percussion* section!

Now I understand you! ;)

Annemehr
who used to play the clarinet, but that was because her dad wouldn't 
let her play the trombone...




From skelkins at attbi.com  Mon Feb 24 06:24:15 2003
From: skelkins at attbi.com (ssk7882 <skelkins@attbi.com>)
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 06:24:15 -0000
Subject: Earliest Memories of the World Outside (was Forcing Kids To Watch History Made)
In-Reply-To: <b391hn+t3rs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b3cdqf+klrn@eGroups.com>

Eileen wrote:

> While Elkins lived a horrible childhood underneath real cameras 
> disguised as sprinklers, I, of course, lived a childhood under 
> sprinklers which I thought were cameras. 

So what are you saying here?  That you're less...less *well-adapted*
than I am?  That you're sicker, perhaps?  More twisted?  More Bent?

Them's fighting words, Eileen.

Seriously, though, I really must stop maligning my poor parents
in front of everyone like this.  They did have their positive 
parental qualities.  They were a trifle deranged, to be sure, 
but they really weren't ESE.  

Besides, camera stories are a total conversation killer.  I forget
sometimes that other people don't always find that sort of thing
funny.  (My housemates no longer allow me to take part in those
'so how nutty were *your* parents?' ice-breaker conversations at 
parties.  They say I spoil them.)

> I lived in the Police State and I survived!

Hey, congratulations!

So how about that Percy identification, then?  Do you think
that believing yourself to be under constant surveillance 
might have encouraged you to adopt a rule-abiding persona?  
Or was the cause and effect reversed?  Or none of the above?

Do you want me to stop asking prying questions about your 
psyche in a public forum?  ;-)


Amy Z wrote:
>Eileen, your childhood take on political reality made me LMAO. 
>The world must have seemed a very exciting, if dangerous, place. 
>And I would love to meet your parents.

Eileen:
> Oh, they're very ordinary. Molly and Arthur Weasley. Do you think 
> they did anything to encourage my paranoiac fantasies? 

You mean, other than leading you to believe that your Mayor ate 
babies? 

> Now, as a kid, I thought they were very twisted and strange 
> people, because they both were fans of a horrible book where 
> the hero was a murderer, and sympathized with him. 

Sympathizing with a murderer?  Scandalous!

The title on my parents' bookshelf that always troubled me as a 
child was _The Agony and the Ecstacy._   I always imagined that 
this must be a sado-masochistic porn novel, and it disturbed me
a great deal to think that my parents (a) had such a thing in 
their possession at *all,* and (b) hadn't even thought to hide 
it away out of sight as surely any normal person would do.  I 
was always tempted to take it down and sneak a peek, but never 
quite dared, on account of the...er, well, the cameras.  It 
eventually became the only book in the house that I *hadn't* 
read because, although I had never been forbidden to read any 
of the books in the house, I was made deeply uncomfortable by 
the idea that my parents might think me the sort of person who 
would be attracted by such an obviously obscene title.

When years later I discovered that this book is in fact a historical 
novel about Michaelangelo, I felt simultaneously vaguely disappointed 
and immensely *immensely* relieved.



Elkins




From judy at judyshapiro.com  Mon Feb 24 07:31:15 2003
From: judy at judyshapiro.com (Judy <judy@judyshapiro.com>)
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 07:31:15 -0000
Subject: What to do when there's no plastic sheeting
In-Reply-To: <b39kk5+83d0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b3cho3+p1bn@eGroups.com>

I said:
>>> I prefer to imagine a "Midwest National Diplomacy Competition" as
a series of high-level talks, where Secretaries of State from all over
the US meet and try to end the horrible border war between Iowa and
Indiana. <<<

To which Jean and Anne objected, with Jean saying: 
>>>Whoa, hang on a minute. There is no way Iowa and Indiana can have
a border war. Mostly because a little state called Illinois sits
between them.<<<

Oh, but that's what makes the border war so horrible!  Illinois is
gone! It has been totally conquered and annexed! 

(I also liked Mel's suggestion that Illinois is "the Neutral Zone.") 

Actually, I had planned to check an online map to figure out who had a
border with Iowa, but my connection was too slow, so I gave up. 


-- Judy, who lives in Michigan, and has traveled many times in Indiana
and Illinois, but has a lousy sense of direction




From judy at judyshapiro.com  Mon Feb 24 08:07:47 2003
From: judy at judyshapiro.com (Judy <judy@judyshapiro.com>)
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 08:07:47 -0000
Subject: Ultimate Unofficial Guide
In-Reply-To: <b3c2g1+shkt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b3cjsj+uf93@eGroups.com>

GulPlum wrote:
> I don't think I've encountered a single typo, misplaced 
> apostrophe or comma, or badly-structured sentence (despite some 
> sentences being very complicated syntactically) in the four [JKR]
> books to date.

Well, one copy I have refers to HRH as playing "exploding snape."
(Freudian slip?)  Even if it were our dear Severeus who were doing the
exploding, his name should have been capitalized.  So, any way you
look at it, "exploding snape" is ungrammatical.

Gul continued:
> do American schools not teach proper use of apostrophes any 
> more? ... For instance, use of "The Durlsey's" as 
> a nominative plural (viz. several posts on the mail list in the
> last 24 hours, hence my pre-occupation with this issue at this very 
> moment) causes me physical irritation. 

I have two answers to that question.  First, I think using an
apostrophe followed by the letter "s" is sometimes considered
grammatical.  (I try to avoid it, though, since learning several
months ago that it bothers some people.) Grammar isn't fixed; it
evolves over time.  If enough people say that a usage is grammatical,
then it is. (Which is sometimes unfortunate. It drives me nuts when
people use "disinterested" to mean "uninterested" instead of
"impartial.") 

Second, some American schools have been avoiding a focus on spelling
and grammar, in the belief that the creative aspects of writing are
more important than the formal aspects.  I don't agree with neglecting
spelling and grammar, but there it is.

-- Judy, who entirely missed the thread about hidden cameras and
parents, and needs to go back and read it 




From natmichaels at hotmail.com  Mon Feb 24 17:49:03 2003
From: natmichaels at hotmail.com (lorien_eve <natmichaels@hotmail.com>)
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 17:49:03 -0000
Subject: Ultimate Unofficial Guide
In-Reply-To: <008b01c2dbb3$7a9c2e80$4a9dcdd1@RVotaw>
Message-ID: <b3dluf+77kq@eGroups.com>

Thank you for defending us Americans! I'm not a teacher, but English 
and Literature were my favorite subjects in school (years ago!). I 
am also and avid reader. Because of this, I too, notice grammatical 
errors and spelling mistakes and it drives me CRAZY! Especially the 
use of "they're, their, and there." I've joined several Yahoo! 
groups only to realize that the majority of the members completely 
slaughter the language and I abruptly leave the group. I cannot 
carry on a conversation with people who so obviously (to me, at 
least) make these errors. I've been known to make typos and the 
occasional mistake myself, by not paying full attention to what I'm 
doing. But for people to blatantly and continously make these 
mistakes.....well, like I said, it drives me CRAZY!! 

Lorien_Eve


--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Richelle Votaw" 
<rvotaw at i...> wrote:
> GulPlum wrote:
> 
> > Incidentally, and I don't mean to talk down to anyone but I'm 
> > curious: do American schools not teach proper use of apostrophes 
any 
> > more? (In particular when to use "it's" -v- "its", and correct 
usage 
> > of "there/their/they're" or "your/you're".) Even in HPFGU I 
> > frequently find people who seem to be native speakers who appear 
> > never to have been taught the difference. 
> 
> I haven't read the book in question (yet, though I suspect I will 
eventually, if nothing else to entertain myself until OotP is out), 
but I will jump in to defend my country.  :)  Yes, American schools 
most definitely teach all of the above.  As early as first grade, I 
can verify that, I teach it myself.  I can't promise that they learn 
it, but I do teach it.  I can sympathize with you, though, since as 
a teacher I notice that sort of thing more than most Americans 
probably do.  I find it very difficult to have a normal conversation 
with anyone (online or otherwise) without correcting their grammar.  
I frequently bite my tongue to prevent something coming out, I know 
most adults don't want to be corrected by a first grade teacher.  
> 
> Still, we all make mistakes at some time or another, I suppose.  
Myself, commas drive me insane.  "They" (whoever "they" are) keep 
changing the rule about commas and when to use them.  The latest 
inservice I went to basically says I'm doing it all wrong.  I didn't 
bother to change, though, since by the time I would get it 
straight "they" will change it back anyway.
> 
> If you see me making major grammatial and punctual errors, you can 
pass it off to overwork for the day. :)  
> 
> Richelle
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From gwendolyngrace at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 24 19:38:59 2003
From: gwendolyngrace at yahoo.com (gwendolyngrace <gwendolyngrace@yahoo.com>)
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 19:38:59 -0000
Subject: Ultimate Unofficial Guide
In-Reply-To: <20030224020247.UKUN10203.pop017.verizon.net@[192.168.129.99]>
Message-ID: <b3dscj+7d2g@eGroups.com>

Sigh.

Arice wrote:
> However, there are no classes that I can take at my college that 
> would tell me that Remus Lupin is an obvious reference to the fact 
> that he's a werewolf, duh, you're stupid for not seeing it on the 
> first reading.

Well, no, dear, of course not, because his first name is not revealed 
to be "Remus" until *after* we learn that he is a werewolf. 

But there are classes you can take that would give you hints: one of 
them is called Greek Mythology, and I for one first studied Greek 
myths in fourth grade (that's 9 or 10 years old, non-Americans). 
Another one is called English Lit.

> 
> However, I don't think we should automatically assume that 
*everyone* knows Sirius was going to be a black dog Animagus upon 
hearing his name for the first time and seeing that black dog for the 
first time. I didn't, does that make me stupid?
> 

I didn't say I knew he would be a black dog Animagus. I said I knew 
that Sirius Black meant "black dog" - "Sirius" being the name of the 
dog-star. I've never taken an astronomy class or a Latin lesson in my 
life, btw.


> and who did notice that the postion Snape brought was 
> important...just didn't know why (yes, i know now).

And I didn't say that we would know Why the potion was important, 
only that Rowling couldn't have increased its significance short of 
saying that Snape carried in a goblet, over which was draped a ribbon 
with the words, "Important Clue" stamped on it in gold.

So, no, I'm not saying at all that readers are "stupid" for not 
catching everything the first time through. Far from it. I also catch 
new things every time I read, and my guesses were not necessarily 
right every time. For example, I was one book ahead in PoA - I 
thought that Lupin was actually Sirius Black in disguise, because I 
connected the name "Lupin" to the name "Sirius," and I noticed that 
Lupin was never around when Black was sighted. It made me suspicious 
in a Clark Kent/Superman sort of way. I was obviously wrong: Rowling 
didn't reuse the Polyjuice as a disguise method for a DADA teacher 
until the fourth book.

I'm saying that the book in question (Waters) presents this 
information in a way that I found condescending.

Gwen




From rvotaw at i-55.com  Mon Feb 24 19:50:07 2003
From: rvotaw at i-55.com (rvotaw at i-55.com)
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 13:50:07 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Intelligence versus interest (was Re: Ultimate Unofficial Guide)
Message-ID: <28664392.1046116207672.JavaMail.root@webmail.i-55.com>

Arice wrote:

> > However, I don't think we should automatically assume that <BR>
> *everyone* knows Sirius was going to be a black dog Animagus upon <BR>
> hearing his name for the first time and seeing that black dog for the <BR>
> first time. I didn't, does that make me stupid?<BR>
> > <BR>

Gwen replied:

> I didn't say I knew he would be a black dog Animagus. I said I knew <BR>
> that Sirius Black meant "black dog" - "Sirius" being the 
name of the <BR>
> dog-star. I've never taken an astronomy class or a Latin lesson in my <BR>
> life, btw.<BR>

Neither have I.  And I didn't relate Sirius to Sirius the dog star in the 
least.  Am I an idiot?  No.  At least I don't think so.  (I have an 
undergraduate degree in Elementary Education, and a Master's degree in 
Educational Technology with certification in Computer Literacy and English as a 
Second Language.  Say that three times fast. ;)  And graduated Summa Cum Laude, 
whatever that may mean.)

The point being, even though I've always had an interest in space, I never had 
much interest in astronomy as such.  My interests always leaned toward 
planets.  So there I sat with numerous books which would have told me that 
Sirius was the dog star, yet I skipped that chapter.  The horror.

Er, did I make a point yet?  I don't think so.  Anyway, I don't think anyone 
who doesn't immediately recognize various things is automatically stupid.  Some 
people's interests just lie in different areas.  I can't translate Greek, but I 
can cross stitch a Gryffindor crest.  On 22 count hardanger fabric.  Now, see, 
some people have no idea what that last sentence meant.  Are they stupid?  
Certainly not.  Am I (or anyone else) stupid because they didn't know Sirius 
was the dog star?  No.

Richelle

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From smotgreg at hotmail.com  Mon Feb 24 20:11:41 2003
From: smotgreg at hotmail.com (Greg Johnson)
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 12:11:41 -0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Digest Number 942
Message-ID: <F24rgaF2DCQ4QoCN28f000063d8@hotmail.com>


>GulPlum wrote:
>
> > Incidentally, and I don't mean to talk down to anyone but I'm
> > curious: do American schools not teach proper use of apostrophes any
> > more? (In particular when to use "it's" -v- "its", and correct usage
> > of "there/their/they're" or "your/you're".) Even in HPFGU I
> > frequently find people who seem to be native speakers who appear
> > never to have been taught the difference.

Sigh -

You did hit a sore spot with me, GulPlum, and I must reply.  Let me say 
first, that I did major in English, minored in Elementary Education, and 
found diagramming sentences an enjoyable activity.  Although, I would not 
want to diagram the sentence I just wrote.  When I write in these chat 
groups, it is in "free form." Often, whatever is on top of my head comes 
out, and though I may proofread it for spelling errors and huge grammatical 
mistakes, I do not edit heavily.

I have taught for 10 years.  In those years, I taught 1st and 2nd grade, 
plus one year of hell in 6th.  I was ashamed to see that most of my first 
and second graders knew more about nouns, verbs, and apostrophes then most 
of the sixth graders.  Why? I don't even want to know.  However, I do know 
that several parents when I conferenced with them about their child's lack 
of grammatical knowledge, their number one reason was that English grammar 
never made sense to them, so why should their kids be forced to learn it 
too? This goes as well for mixing up their, there, and they're. A lesson I 
taught in first grade. I'm embarrassed to say that many of my collegues were 
just as ambivalant.  Many of our new teachers hold Master degrees, which is 
really a one-year-quick-to-the-classroom approach where anyone who holds a 
four year degree in anything (like recreation, for example), can take a few 
courses and voila! Be a teacher at the end of a year.  I went through a four 
year program, plus numerous practicum experiences before I ever set foot in 
a classroom of my own.  I am embarrassed to tell this HP world that I had to 
tutor the third grade teacher next to me in the basics of phonics and 
grammar, because the second graders I sent up to her knew more than she did.

I'm not blaming these teachers, because most of them truly have children's 
best interests at heart and want to educate them to the best of their 
ability.  My beef lies with this country's attitude toward education. 
(Sorry, I'm on my soapbox) The Oregon voters have just turned down a measure 
to fund our schools (and other public services).  My school literally has to 
bring their own toliet paper now. How are you going to learn or teach, when 
all you worry about is will there be some TP left when it's time for me to 
go?

I can't go on. It upsets me too much. . .

But yes, GulPlum, American schools teach about apostrophes and other basic 
English knowledge.  This teacher, though, has called it quits.  I have my 
own child to corrupt.

My apologies for offending, rattling on, and please let the Mods save me 
from embarrassing myself,

Stacie

_________________________________________________________________
The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE*  
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail




From trinity61us at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 24 14:05:16 2003
From: trinity61us at yahoo.com (alex fox <trinity61us@yahoo.com>)
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 14:05:16 -0000
Subject: bigotry
Message-ID: <b3d8qs+miol@eGroups.com>

 I have been lurking on all the HPfGU sites for so long , I think I 
had forgotten that there was a "real" world out there. I was 
mistaken. I just logged on to a site where I was bombarded with " 
They SHOULD only breed amongs themselves" and "forced eugenics wasn't 
such a bad idea" and believe it or not the phrase "pure-blood" came 
into play. This was a "technological" chat room, not a kkk or white 
power site. I live in a town where "normal" bigotry is a way of life, 
i.e, "those meskins" or those "n" s. You start to take it for 
granted. I get so outraged about the way the DE's talk about the 
Muggle-born. This hit me like a ton of bricks. I just remembered , 
this could be me their talking about so casually, like I'm an 
abomination. Hell of a wake up call.

       Alex, pondering by the hogwarts lake





From melclaros at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 24 22:42:01 2003
From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros <melclaros@yahoo.com>)
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 22:42:01 -0000
Subject: Digest Number 942
In-Reply-To: <F24rgaF2DCQ4QoCN28f000063d8@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <b3e73p+3aj1@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Greg Johnson" 
<smotgreg at h...> wrote:

Many of our new teachers hold Master degrees, which is 
> really a one-year-quick-to-the-classroom approach where anyone who 
holds a 
> four year degree in anything (like recreation, for example), can 
take a few 
> courses and voila! 


Voila! Man, where is this that can get a Master's like that? Not 
here. Not where I asked around! Despite the fact I have a 4-year 
Liberal Arts degree, I was expected to take undergrad gen. ed. 
classes and pay grad student rate per credit for the priviledge. (Had 
to "catch up" you know, with all the gen. ed. majors!) There are some 
programs that will certify degreed professionals in certain fields 
(in this particular county we're desperate for anyone who can teach 
high level math) but they are just that, certified teachers. They do 
not get Master's Degrees right out of the box.
(Hope I got all the 'postrophes right!)
Mel
As to the rest of your post, I agree with every word. I work in the 
public school system in a state that ranks near the very, very bottom 
of the barrel in education spending (despite our "Education Governor" 
as he calls himself.) 




From pottersangel76 at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 24 22:56:23 2003
From: pottersangel76 at yahoo.com (Alyssa Bilano)
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 14:56:23 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] bigotry
In-Reply-To: <b3d8qs+miol@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20030224225623.96849.qmail@web21305.mail.yahoo.com>


I think the same exact way Alex,no one should be bigoting anyone under any circumstances for whatever reason...IT'S JUST WRONG!!!!!!!! I am only a half breed, my mother being a muggle and me dad not being one.If it were up to me,people who think badly of other people due to their heritage should be tortured on the rack,made to endure hot tongs and thumbscrews,have their hands cutt off,be skinned alive and have lemon juice or salt rubbed all over their body.
Love,
Riddlegirl(sitting next to Alex pondering by the lake)
 
 "alex fox <trinity61us at yahoo.com>" <trinity61us at yahoo.com> wrote:I have been lurking on all the HPfGU sites for so long , I think I 
had forgotten that there was a "real" world out there. I was 
mistaken. I just logged on to a site where I was bombarded with " 
They SHOULD only breed amongs themselves" and "forced eugenics wasn't 
such a bad idea" and believe it or not the phrase "pure-blood" came 
into play. This was a "technological" chat room, not a kkk or white 
power site. I live in a town where "normal" bigotry is a way of life, 
i.e, "those meskins" or those "n" s. You start to take it for 
granted. I get so outraged about the way the DE's talk about the 
Muggle-born. This hit me like a ton of bricks. I just remembered , 
this could be me their talking about so casually, like I'm an 
abomination. Hell of a wake up call.

       Alex, pondering by the hogwarts lake



Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
var lrec_target="_top";var lrec_URL = new Array();lrec_URL[1] = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.2974023.4304644.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1707544108:HM/A=1430287/R=0/id=flashurl/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405";var link="javascript:LRECopenWindow(1)";var lrec_flashfile = 'http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/intl_library_of_poetry/yahoo_300x250.swf?clickTAG='+link+'';var lrec_altURL = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.2974023.4304644.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1707544108:HM/A=1430287/R=1/id=altimgurl/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405";var lrec_altimg = "http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/intl_library_of_poetry/yahoo_300x250.gif";var lrec_width = 300;var lrec_height = 250;
________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________

Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the group's Admin Files!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/

Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying!

Is your message...
An announcement of merchandise, news etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements.
Movie-related? Send it to HPFGU-Movie.
Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups.
None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter.
Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com

Unsubscribing? Email HPFGU-OTChatter-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
____________________________________________________________ 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From macloudt at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Feb 24 23:32:09 2003
From: macloudt at yahoo.co.uk (Mary Ann <macloudt@yahoo.co.uk>)
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 23:32:09 -0000
Subject: Birthday Greetings!
Message-ID: <b3ea1p+lbc0@eGroups.com>

:::::skips into the room throwing confetti about:::::

It's birthday time again!  Today's greetings go out to Michelle.  
Greetings can be sent to the List or to 
harry_potter_uk2002uk at yahoo.co.uk

Have a great day, Michelle, and here's hoping you get lots of HP 
goodies!

Mary Ann
(TBE)




From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 24 23:46:38 2003
From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent <psychic_serpent@yahoo.com>)
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 23:46:38 -0000
Subject: Ultimate Unofficial Guide
In-Reply-To: <b3c2g1+shkt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b3easu+a3qq@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "GulPlum <plumeski at y...>" 
<plumeski at y...> wrote:
> Of course, the message was written so poorly that I wondered what 
> business she had attempting to analyze a book written in exemplary 
> English. 
> 
> Whether this is down to JKR or her editors and proof-readers I 
> don't know, but I don't think I've encountered a single typo, 
> misplaced apostrophe or comma, or badly-structured sentence 
> (despite some sentences being very complicated syntactically) in 
> the four books to date. (Yes, there are a few Flints, but they're 
> all written in textbook English.) :-)

There have in the past been folks on the main list who criticized 
JKR's command of English, but for the life of me I can't recall the 
specific complaints now.  A search of the archives may net you some 
information on what some have found objectionable in her writing 
style.

I have only found a few odd things here and there in the American 
editions, and when I checked them against my UK editions I found 
that it was because of an awkward "translation" from British 
to "American."  So she really isn't to be blamed for that.  If there 
is some awkwardness in her British English, I need to bow to a Brit 
to sniff that out.  It looks fine to me.
 
> Incidentally, and I don't mean to talk down to anyone but I'm 
> curious: do American schools not teach proper use of apostrophes 
> any more? (In particular when to use "it's" -v- "its", and correct 
> usage of "there/their/they're" or "your/you're".) Even in HPFGU I 
> frequently find people who seem to be native speakers who appear 
> never to have been taught the difference. 

Well, I don't know about "talking down."  But I do think you're 
making an assumption that the problem is with the schools in a given 
country rather than with the individuals involved.  As one of the 
people screening fanfiction for Fiction Alley (FA), I can testify 
that I see just as many British English submissions with incorrectly 
used apostrophes as American submissions.  (Plus we also get 
submissions from native English speakers in Australia, New Zealand, 
Ireland, Canada, South Africa, and from non-native English speakers 
in a number of other countries.)  No one English-speaking country 
has cornered the market on correct use of their native tongue.  

I do agree with you that incorrect use of apostrophes has become a 
rampant problem in many English-speaking countries.  At FA we 
finally classifed this type of error as an "Unforgivable," meaning 
that only a handful of this sort of error is necessary to doom one's 
submission.  Incorrect dialogue formatting/punctuation is another.  
(Don't get me started on the many ways people have managed to screw 
this up.)  The other Unforgivable is misspelling major canon 
characters' names to such an extent that it would be a heinous 
burden on our coders to correct the problem.  I have seen 
many "imaginative" versions of our beloved HP characters' names.  
Trust me.  You don't want to know.
 
> I'll be brutally honest here: For instance, use of "The Durlsey's" 
> as a nominative plural (viz. several posts on the mail list in the 
> last 24 hours, hence my pre-occupation with this issue at this 
> very moment) causes me physical irritation. 

I also see this quite often in posts on the web.  I see it on our 
list and I see it on livejournals, blogs, and on large fanfiction 
archives where there is no effort made to screen submissions, or 
else those doing the screening are as ill-informed about correct 
grammar and punctuation as the authors sending submissions.  
Personally, I believe that the web is probably a more likely culprit 
for this bad grammar and punctuation than the schools in any one 
country.  While we did encounter (at FA) some folks who actually 
said their English teachers taught them the wrong way to punctuate 
dialogue (HOW did they become teachers?) there are so many people 
reading things online written in incorrect English, whether on 
mailing lists, bulletin boards or fanfiction archives, that they're 
having the incorrect forms reinforced in their minds instead of the 
correct forms.  

I will go out on a limb and say that most people posting to the main 
list probably do not have beta readers go over their writing before 
hitting the "send" key.  While we do have standards, which is to say 
we frown on netspeak and writing in all lowercase letters as 
a "style," among other things, once a listee is unmoderated, we need 
to trust him or her to proofread his or her posts and to be careful 
about the spelling, grammar and punctuation, on top of the canon 
requirements.  (When not adhering to these standards becomes the 
rule for that poster, and not the exception, he or she is contacted 
by someone in authority on the list.)  It's a not-inconsiderable 
bunch of hoops to jump through, and by and large I think our members 
do an admirable job.  I simply cannot read many things posted 
elsewhere, and I do not try.  

I also make certain that I do a lot of reading that is in actual 
books, newspapers and magazines, rather than on the web.  I have 
even seen terrible mistakes in online versions of newspapers, 
magazines, etc.  Perhaps because of the ephemeral nature of web-
posted news (often it isn't archived but overwritten by the 
following day's news) they don't take the time to proofread that 
they do at newspapers where they produce a printed copy (although 
I've also seen dreadful things in my local newspaper, the multi-
Pulitzer-Prize-winning Philadelphia Inquirer).

The humorist Dave Barry has often written his column as "Mr. 
Language Person," wherein he pretends to be a columnist answering 
readers' questions about correct English usage.  The answers he 
gives to the bogus questions are not at all correct, of course, but 
designed to poke fun at what many people seem to THINK is correct 
usage.  For instance, if a person wrote to him to ask him how to use 
apostrophes correctly, he would say, "All you have to do to use 
apostrophes correctly is remember one rule: an apostrophe is a 
warning that an 'S' is coming up right after."  [This is a 
paraphrase of something that has actually appeared in his column.]
Yes, I laughed the first time I read it, but I really do see many 
things written by people who seem to think this is the rule.  I see 
people conjugate verbs by adding an apostrophe and an 's.'  I see 
them pluralize this way.  There seems to be no pattern to where they 
were educated.  Sadly, I think some people out there are taking "Mr. 
Language Person" far too seriously...

--Barb

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent
http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb





From smotgreg at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 25 00:00:47 2003
From: smotgreg at hotmail.com (sandon96 <smotgreg@hotmail.com>)
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 00:00:47 -0000
Subject: Digest Number 942
In-Reply-To: <b3e73p+3aj1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b3ebnf+ofmr@eGroups.com>


> 
> Voila! Man, where is this that can get a Master's like that? Not 
> here. 

The University of Oregon. Go Ducks!

I would just like to apologize, though, for my soapboxing.  Education 
is an issue near and dear to my heart and I have a tendency to get 
emotional over it.

Stacie





From Malady579 at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 25 00:20:15 2003
From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody <Malady579@hotmail.com>)
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 00:20:15 -0000
Subject: Beating a Drum (We call it hacking.)
In-Reply-To: <b3ca79+soee@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b3ecrv+6ibd@eGroups.com>

I wrote:
>Not that I am complaining.  Ever since I was eleven, they let me beat
>a drum while tromping all over their muddy fields during halftime, so
>my life has been good.


Annemehr chided:
> Oh, so you're in the *percussion* section!
>
> Now I understand you! ;)


Ha.  Ha.

Yes, I am a percussionist and proud of it.  We could get away with
more.  Nothing like playing a piece where you have to count 45
measures of rest, hit two dings on a triangle, and resume relaxing
back behind the percussion cabinet coloring till the piece is over.
Though, we could also have the joy in some musical works of running
about the place hitting on everything.  Which is always fun.  I
remember this one where I had to play the bass drum, run from one side
of the stage to the other, play a fast xylophone lick, twirl around to
catch the gong mallet, and hit it square hard from the momentum.

diga diga, **DONG**.

::Sigh::

Gosh, I miss it.

I lost everyone there in drummer speak, didn't I?  :)

And, thank you Annemehr for not calling me a drummer.  While the term
is generally not offensive, it can be taken so in wonderful world of
musical talent.


> Annemehr
> who used to play the clarinet, but that was because her dad wouldn't
> let her play the trombone...

Now, now.  My dad is a trombone player.  It is a noble instrument.
Now, the odd sort of people that play it well....let's say my dad's
fellow trombone playing friends were...their own breed.  But of course
my dad is perfectly normal, thank you very much.  ;)


Melody
and Annemehr you should know my last name, so you should get the
bigger joke in my choosing to be a percussionist.




From dradamsapple at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 25 05:07:12 2003
From: dradamsapple at yahoo.com (dradamsapple <dradamsapple@yahoo.com>)
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 05:07:12 -0000
Subject: Digest Number 942
In-Reply-To: <b3ebnf+ofmr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b3etm0+okhv@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "sandon96 <smotgreg at h...>" 
<smotgreg at h...> wrote:
> 
> > 
> I would just like to apologize, though, for my soapboxing.  
Education 
> is an issue near and dear to my heart and I have a tendency to get 
> emotional over it.
> 
> Stacie


Stacie, you'll love this one;

I have David Letterman on (yes, it's LATE here) and he just 
introduced a new segment:  "Grammy Presenters who make up words" (I'm 
paraphrasing), and they show Fred Durst saying, "I'm glad we are all 
in agreeance . . ."  AGREEANCE? 
I'll leave it at that.

Anna . . .




From siskiou at earthlink.net  Tue Feb 25 05:44:44 2003
From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne)
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 21:44:44 -0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Digest Number 942
In-Reply-To: <b3ebnf+ofmr@eGroups.com>
References: <b3ebnf+ofmr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <145341272808.20030224214444@earthlink.net>



Hi,

Monday, February 24, 2003, 4:00:47 PM, smotgreg at hotmail.com wrote:

> The University of Oregon. Go Ducks!

> I would just like to apologize, though, for my soapboxing.  Education 
> is an issue near and dear to my heart and I have a tendency to get 
> emotional over it.

Ah, now I know where most of my daughter's teachers received
their degrees ;).

I'm used to the German school system, where you have to
repeat the year if your grades don't measure up, but here
(in our part of Oregon) it seems everybody moves on to the
next grade, no matter what.

Is this the case everywhere in the US?

Our daughter also seems to be one of the few who actually
arrives at school on time and has her homework done.

Many kids are dropped off at all hours, missing large parts
of the curriculum and interrupting the lesson when coming in
late.

And I truly detest having to go around the neighborhood
begging for money for the school, or selling stuff, because
there is never enough money!

The measures granting money for the schools always lose, for
some reason :(

Sorry for the rant, but it's good to talk about this
sometimes!

-- 
Best regards,
 Susanne                           mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net




From catlady at wicca.net  Tue Feb 25 06:46:26 2003
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston) <catlady@wicca.net>)
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 06:46:26 -0000
Subject: Camera stories / Happy Birthday / bad grammar / LOST IN LA MANCHA 
Message-ID: <b3f3g2+pkqt@eGroups.com>

Elkins wrote:

<< Besides, camera stories are a total conversation killer. I forget
sometimes that other people don't always find that sort of thing 
funny. >>

Hey, *I* thought your and Eileen's and Torsten's camera stories *are* 
funny! Don't stop.

Mary Ann wrote:

<< It's birthday time again! Today's greetings go out to Michelle. >>

Happy birthday, Michelle! Let me throw some confetti at you -- 
it's time travelling confettit, so even throw it's already Tuesday 
in UK when I throw it, it will go back and arrive on Monday.

Barb wrote:

<< I believe that the web is probably a more likely culprit for this 
bad grammar and punctuation than the schools in any one country. >>

There were plenty of public displays of bad grammar and bad spelling, 
and many signs in many shops that used apostrophe-S to indicate a 
plural, and (*my* pet peeve) quotatation marks around words that 
probably should not be there, such as the card in a museum vitrine 
explaing EXHIBIT "TEMPORARILY REMOVED FOR STUDY" -- whevever I 
see that, I say "Do they mean that the exhibit has been stolen and 
they want to hush it up?" -- long before there was an Internet or an 
ARPAnet, let alone a Web.

I know that I got bored to death with years and years of teachers 
writing on the blackboard (it was green and used chalk):
TO TOO TWO
or
THERE THEIR THEY'RE
but apparently some people aren't able to remember those spellings no 
matter how often teachers nag about it. I didn't mention ITS IT'S 
because I always have to stop and think that one out myself. 

It's late at night and my brain isn't quite working, so I don't quite 
know how to say that being bad at spelling has more to do with not 
reading much or having memory problems or some other learning 
disorder* than with being stupid, because the spelling of English 
words is pretty arbitrary, so the people who are good spellers must 
have memorized the spellings. I don't mean CONSCIOUSLY memorized, but 
I remember to this day something I read in a Neuro-Linguistic 
Programming book in the early 1980s, where the NLP dude said that all 
good spellers have the same mental strategy, which is to see the word 
in their head, and a feeling along the mid-line of the body indicates 
that it's wrong or right, and bad spellers have all kinds of 
strategies except that one ...  

*I've spent a lot of time in my life correcting the spelling in 
memoes, essays, etc written by men who are intelligent and well-read 
but suffer from dyslexia. Some of them spelled a bit better after a 
year or two of nagging, I mean running commentary as I corrected 
their spelling ... Tim learned the difference between "then" and 
"than"!

I know there are some people who are just as bugged that I can NEVER 
remember their silly rule about "that" and "which" as I am by people 
saying "flaunt" when they mean "flout", but I think people wouldn't 
hate grammar so much if the grammar police let up on some of their 
stupid arbitrary picky rules, especially the one about saying 
"everybody take his book" when you MEAN "everybody take their books", 
and perversely pretending that "they" is not the third person 
singular pronoun, when Lee has examples of that usage back to the 
1500s (which I don't happen to remember). 

Anna Adam's Apple wrote:

<< they show Fred Durst saying, "I'm glad we are all in agreeance . . 
." AGREEANCE? >>

Fred Durst of Limpbizkit? I heard the soundbite on this morning's 
news. It's not his job to be intelligent or educated or able to read 
or even able to play music, just to entertain his particular audience 
(which I have been told consists of young teen-age boys).

LOST IN LA MANCHA -- I saw it this evening (on the way home from work 
*snerk*) and enjoyed it. What I wanted to mention here is I was 
overwhelmed by how much the parts of Spain where Gilliam was filming 
look like my Southern California. The yellow plains around Madrid 
look like what I pass on the San Diego Freeway whenever I go to the 
science fiction club meeting or to visit friends in that part of 
town, and the barren, eroded landscape where they were caught in the 
flash flood is beside I-10 once you get out of town (which I admit 
does take three hours if you obey the stupid speed limit). Someone 
wave at Grey Wolf for me.




From macloudt at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Feb 25 09:54:35 2003
From: macloudt at yahoo.co.uk (Mary Ann <macloudt@yahoo.co.uk>)
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 09:54:35 -0000
Subject: Birthday Greetings!
Message-ID: <b3fegr+fg64@eGroups.com>

:::::blows up lots of balloons and puts a large cake on the table:::::

Ah, another birthday.  I love this job!  Today's birthday greetings 
go to Finwitch.  Greetings can be sent to the List or to 
finwitch at yahoo.com

Have a lovely day, Finwitch, and have fun!

Mary Ann
(TBE)




From macloudt at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Feb 25 10:23:06 2003
From: macloudt at yahoo.co.uk (Mary Ann <macloudt@yahoo.co.uk>)
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 10:23:06 -0000
Subject: Fun with Spelling and Grammar
In-Reply-To: <b3dluf+77kq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b3fg6a+g5r5@eGroups.com>

Lorien_Eve wrote:

> I've joined several Yahoo! 
> groups only to realize that the majority of the members completely 
> slaughter the language and I abruptly leave the group. I cannot 
> carry on a conversation with people who so obviously (to me, at 
> least) make these errors.

Ah, good.  Now I now that I'm not the only grammar snob around. ;)  
That's the problem with all these nifty spelling and grammar rules on 
the HP groups, see...it makes us allergic to other groups without 
such strict rules.  I'm so far gone that coming across unsnipped 
material at the bottom of an email drives me mad!

> I've been known to make typos and the 
> occasional mistake myself, by not paying full attention to what I'm 
> doing. But for people to blatantly and continously make these 
> mistakes.....well, like I said, it drives me CRAZY!! 

Same here.  On this list I tend write in an informal way, so I know 
that my grammar slips from time to time.  But if I'm writing 
something formal I take great pains to see that spelling and grammar 
are as accurate as possible.

To be honest some of my friends think I'm a complete spelling and 
grammar snob.  However, when they're writing something official and 
need it proofread, who do they run to?  Yep, me.  Talk about fair-
weather friends. ;)

However I do think that spelling and grammar are gifts.  I've always 
been good at spelling and phonics.  I can look at a sentence and know 
whether or not it's grammatically correct.  I may not know *why*, but 
I know it's wrong.  On the other hand my husband, who is intelligent 
and reads an awful lot of historical non-fiction, has been known to 
spell his own mother's name wrong.  Phonics means nothing to him.  
When writing a multi-syllable word he's been known to leave out an 
entire syllable.  This has nothing to do with intelligence, IMO.  He 
simply can't equate phonics with spelling (of course where English is 
concerned phonics and spelling often have nothing in common anyway).

I see the same thing with my two older kids.  Beth can sound out 
practically any word she comes across.  She can put the sounds 
together and make out the word.  Gareth, on the other hand, has a 
photographic memory for words but can't sound them out.  Even if I 
sound out the individual syllables for him he can't put the sounds 
together.  I'm not saying that Gareth will never be able to do this; 
I'm simply pointing out that what comes naturally to Beth is a 
struggle for Gareth.  Perhaps it's a male/female thing.  Anyone know?

Mary Ann
(who has 10 people coming over tonight and really must get on with 
housework)




From jenP_97 at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 25 16:02:04 2003
From: jenP_97 at yahoo.com (Jennifer Piersol <jenP_97@yahoo.com>)
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 16:02:04 -0000
Subject: Fun with Spelling and Grammar
In-Reply-To: <b3fg6a+g5r5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b3g41s+8iem@eGroups.com>

Mary Ann noted that she can spell and 
"grammarize" (sorry...) more naturally 
than her husband, and that her two 
oldest seem to be turning out to be 
apples falling closely to their parent 
trees, and then asked:

> I'm simply pointing out that what 
> comes naturally to Beth is a struggle 
> for Gareth.  Perhaps it's a 
> male/female thing.  Anyone know?

Well, there are theories, and you would 
think that I'd be familiar with them 
from college, but I have to admit that 
I saw what follows on a Discovery 
Channel (maybe TLC?) special about the 
difference in the sexes that stem from 
birth.  Anyway, it seems that girls 
are naturally better at language than 
boys are because of that dreaded 
hormone testosterone. (Okay, men... 
calm down.  I'll get to you in a 
second.)

All babies start off as female.  Then 
the Y chromosome is activated around 
week 6 (I think) of gestation, and 
testosterone production is turned on.  
When this happens, as well as turning 
on the creation of certain "naughty 
bits", it starts shaping the brain.  
What ends up happening is that the 
isthmus (sp?) between the hemispheres 
is either pared down to just the 
necessary connections (boy brains), or 
left to develop lots of redundant 
connections (girls).  While this means 
that boys are "great" at concentrating 
on single tasks, and solving problems, 
it makes girls "great" at language and 
reading the expressions/feelings of 
others.

Now, I'm not saying I buy all this... 
but it was fascinating television, and 
I would agree with 75% of it in any 
case.

JenP, who at the moment is watching 
Rolie Polie Olie - which isn't as 
fascinating.

PS.  Did you know that testosterone 
basically poisons boy babies?  It makes 
them so delicate that almost 20% of 
pregnancies that start off with a boy 
baby end in miscarriage.  That and they 
are more likely to suffer from brain 
damage/internal damage from accidents, 
abuse, and rough handling.  So when you 
meet your new little niece, all you 
aunts and uncles out there... don't be 
gentle with her, and then roughhouse 
with your nephews.  Play the other way 
around! ;)




From sevothtarte at gmx.net  Tue Feb 25 16:17:40 2003
From: sevothtarte at gmx.net (Torsten)
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 17:17:40 +0100
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] re: Camera stories / Happy Birthday / bad grammar / LOST IN LA MANCHA
In-Reply-To: <b3f3g2+pkqt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <6ZA94ZMHRQC8642WONJIC7LI060509K.3e5b9724@tk>

Catlady wrote
>Hey, *I* thought your and Eileen's and Torsten's camera stories *are* 
>funny! Don't stop.

Yeah, that's right. Laughing about poor kids growing up in a Big Brother world. *sniff* 
To teach how it's like I installed some cameras in your house, and no, they're not 
behind the sprinklers.

-Torsten






From Ali at zymurgy.org  Tue Feb 25 19:32:02 2003
From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali <Ali@zymurgy.org>)
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 19:32:02 -0000
Subject: Ultimate Unofficial Guide
In-Reply-To: <b3c2g1+shkt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b3ggbi+kbf6@eGroups.com>

Richard aka "GulPlum wrote:

>> Incidentally, and I don't mean to talk down to anyone but I'm 
curious: do American schools not teach proper use of apostrophes any 
more? (In particular when to use "it's" -v- "its", and correct usage 
of "there/their/they're" or "your/you're".) Even in HPFGU I 
frequently find people who seem to be native speakers who appear 
never to have been taught the difference.<<<

Oh Richard. I feel a confession coming. You see, I'm not American, 
I'm British. I'm well educated (Law degree and currently working on 
Masters level course), I did Latin and Greek at A'Level, so grammar 
is something I'm very aware of... and yet, I make all the mistakes 
you cite. If you asked me which word to use, I would get the correct 
answer every single time, but I seem to have a problem in getting 
what I'm thinking onto paper.

Please be irritated with me if you must, I find it irritating as 
well. I am just incredibly careless, and I think that my brain must 
just work in this careless way. I would love to know if there are 
ways to stop being so careless, if there was a technical term to 
describe people like me. But, in the absence of excuses I just have 
to hope that my proof reading will uncover most of my little errors.

Ali






From m.bockermann at t-online.de  Tue Feb 25 20:06:41 2003
From: m.bockermann at t-online.de (m.bockermann at t-online.de)
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 21:06:41 +0100
Subject: Fun with Spelling and Grammar (was: Ultimate Guide)
References: <1046179717.642.95244.m12@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <009401c2dd0e$320404c0$f90b9d3e@bockerma>

First of all: thanks for the answers on the Ultimate Guide question. I guess it is worth it to check the book out, but that it's not so pressing that I would have to buy it tomorrow.

Lorien_Eve wrote:
> I've joined several Yahoo! 
> groups only to realize that the majority of the members completely 
> slaughter the language and I abruptly leave the group. I cannot 
> carry on a conversation with people who so obviously (to me, at 
> least) make these errors.

And Mary Ann replied:
>>>>Ah, good.  Now I now that I'm not the only grammar snob around. ;)  
That's the problem with all these nifty spelling and grammar rules on 
the HP groups, see...it makes us allergic to other groups without 
such strict rules.  I'm so far gone that coming across unsnipped 
material at the bottom of an email drives me mad!

Is it possible that some of the spelling and grammatical sins are due to the poster being a non-native speaker (or writer, to be more exact)? I noticed that there are people from all over the world here and when English is your second language, the correct application of their/there or its/it's or such might can be really hard. 

Or can you native speakers tell another native speaker with language problems from a non-native speaker? I'm not being sarcastic here, I'm really curious. Can you native speakers tell wether a poster is native or not? I'm not being sarcastic here, I'm really curious. I'm not a native speaker myself, so I wonder if you can spot us from a mile away or only notice it by accident.

I *was* able to spell my native language (German) for almost 20 years. Really. Truely. And then... what happened? They went ahead and *changed* the rules!!! Now I am unhappily living ever after in total Babylonian confusion. *Knowing* the rules is not enough to break 20 years of habit, training and indoctrination it really *******s when your pupils know their spelling better than you do.  )-:

Greetings,
Ethanol







From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk  Tue Feb 25 21:04:51 2003
From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte)
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 21:04:51 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Fun with Spelling and Grammar (was: Ultimate Guide)
References: <009401c2dd0e$320404c0$f90b9d3e@bockerma>
Message-ID: <3E5BDA73.000001.45197@monica>

 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
Date: 25 February 2003 20:49:42
To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Fun with Spelling and Grammar (was: Ultimate
Guide)
 

 
Is it possible that some of the spelling and grammatical sins are due to the
poster being a non-native speaker 
(or writer, to be more exact)? I noticed that there are people from all over
the world here and when English is your 
second language, the correct application of their/there or its/it's or such
might can be really hard. 
 
Or can you native speakers tell another native speaker with language
problems from a non-native speaker? 
I'm not being sarcastic here, I'm really curious. Can you native speakers
tell wether a poster is native or not? I'm not being sarcastic 
here, I'm really curious. I'm not a native speaker myself, so I wonder if
you can spot us from a mile away or only notice it by accident.
 
I *was* able to spell my native language (German) for almost 20 years.
Really. Truely. And then... what happened? 
They went ahead and *changed* the rules!!! Now I am unhappily living ever
after in total Babylonian confusion. *Knowing* the 
rules is not enough to break 20 years of habit, training and indoctrination
it really *******s when your pupils know their spelling 
better than you do.  )-:
 
Greetings,
Ethanol
 
 
 I've found people who have English as a second language fall into two camps
 Those whose English is good enough to post/read it but only just (and that
s still fantastic because God knows I wouldn't want to be doing this in
German and I have a degree in that) and who, therefore, have a tendency to
use constructions which are clearly based in their own language. Sentence
structure, which while technically accurate, is totally un-English. Those
you can spot straight off. they also tend not to use any idiomatic language
and no slang of course (because those are things you can only really pick up
from native speakers rather than being taught them in a class). the other
category are those who speak the language as if it is their own - but do so
far more grammatically than a native speaker. You can't spot those because
they could just be well-educated native speakers. (obviously there's a third
camp of people whose English isn't good enough to fit into these categories
but you obviously don't run into them on English-speaking mailing lists)

As a general rule I find that non-native speakers have better grammar than
native speakers - because when you're learning a new language the grammar is
a big part of the building blocks you need to be able to make yourself
understood. Vocabularies grow organically as you pick them up over time but
grammar is drummed into you. I know my English grammar improved dramatically
when I started learning foreign languages. Up until that point I'd never
really learnt it. Things are corrected in essays and stuff at school but by
the time you get to that point (senior school usually) any bad habits are so
deeply ingrained you're pretty much screwed.

And i sympathise on the spelling, I really do. I was in the final year of my
degree when the changes came in. Bastards. They couldn't wait a year, oh no!
So i am totally confused when it comes to spelling in German - I stick to
what I was taught and let people figure it out for themselves :)

Oh and while my grammar and they're/their/there stuff is fine my spelling
online is awful because no matter how often I reset the preferences my
computer insists onkeeping setting all its spelling stuff back to American.
I spell in English, it spells in American and as such I'm in the habit of
ignoring my spell checker - sometimes even when it's right :)

K



From belleps at october.com  Tue Feb 25 23:03:58 2003
From: belleps at october.com (Beth)
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 17:03:58 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Ultimate Unofficial Guide
In-Reply-To: <1046092011.650.68565.m12@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20030225170001.00a28b30@pop.cox-internet.com>

At 01:06 PM 2/24/03 +0000, you wrote:
>Bullfinch's Guide of sorts for
>the literary allusions, all of which are pretty easy to discover, if
>not patently obvious from the start (again, does she really think we
>need to be *told* that Sirius is the dogstar, and also that "Sirius
>Black" means Black Dog? Maybe the twelve-year-olds, but... Yeesh).

(This isn't a comment on the book -- I don't think I've seen this one.)

Well <ahem>, actually <blush>, I didn't get the references about Sirius 
until I started reading HPfGU. One of my roommates in college (many, many 
years ago) used to get VERY frustrated with me. She was a teaching 
assistant for astronomy, and she'd walk out at night and say things like, 
"Oooo, look! Cassiopeia, Orion, the Seven Sisters...." and I'd look up and 
say, "Stars! Pretty!" <grin> So Sirius being the dogstar was something that 
I had heard somewhere along the way, but I just didn't think of it 
regarding HP until someone pointed it out.

bel 




From ression at hotmail.com  Wed Feb 26 00:05:03 2003
From: ression at hotmail.com (ER <ression@hotmail.com>)
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 00:05:03 -0000
Subject: Ultimate Unofficial Guide
In-Reply-To: <b3easu+a3qq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b3h0bf+evqc@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "psychic_serpent wrote 

> I have only found a few odd things here and there in the American 
> editions, and when I checked them against my UK editions I found 
> that it was because of an awkward "translation" from British 
> to "American."

Styles are different, aren't they. The one I notice is the US "go get 
it" versus the UK "go and get it". We were taught to put the 
conjunction in. Do they take them out for the American editions?

>  If there 
> is some awkwardness in her British English, I need to bow to a Brit 
> to sniff that out.  It looks fine to me.

Seems fine to me too, though I'm no expert (hated English at school, 
hey I'm English, why would I want to take lessons in the damn thing :)

> 
> Well, I don't know about "talking down."  But I do think you're 
> making an assumption that the problem is with the schools in a 
given 
> country rather than with the individuals involved.  As one of the 
> people screening fanfiction for Fiction Alley (FA), I can testify 
> that I see just as many British English submissions with 
incorrectly 
> used apostrophes as American submissions. 

Absolutely - folk are much of a muchness all over the world. Though 
standards are slipping here (the UK) - I think it's because the 
people who are now teachers (sorry, education facilitators) are from 
the generation who were taught that spelling and grammar were not 
that important. So they don't understand it! I didn't enjoy it, but 
the teachers drummed it into me.


> I do agree with you that incorrect use of apostrophes has become a 
> rampant problem in many English-speaking countries.  At FA we 
> finally classifed this type of error as an "Unforgivable," meaning 
> that only a handful of this sort of error is necessary to doom 
>one's submission.

Greengrocers' apostrophes have been with us forever - "Apple's 2/6 a 
pound".


> I've also seen dreadful things in my local newspaper, the multi-
> Pulitzer-Prize-winning Philadelphia Inquirer).

It's spreading to major UK newspapers (e.g. The Times) - it's easy to 
see that many of them are using computer proof-reading now.

And on that theme, my favourite booboo in FanFiction comes from a 
story that had Harry and Hermione "sharing a picture of pumpkin 
juice". Don't you love computers :))


ER




From ression at hotmail.com  Wed Feb 26 00:12:33 2003
From: ression at hotmail.com (ER <ression@hotmail.com>)
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 00:12:33 -0000
Subject: Fun with Spelling and Grammar
In-Reply-To: <b3g41s+8iem@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b3h0ph+2153@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Jennifer Piersol 
<jenP_97 at y...>" <jenP_97 at y...> wrote:

>So when you 
> meet your new little niece, all you 
> aunts and uncles out there... don't be 
> gentle with her, and then roughhouse 
> with your nephews.  Play the other way 
> around! ;)

Ah, but our nephews want to play rough and our nieces don't! Perhaps 
our male brains are wired for "self destruct" ...

ER




From siskiou at earthlink.net  Tue Feb 25 21:58:52 2003
From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne)
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 13:58:52 -0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Fun with Spelling and Grammar (was: Ultimate Guide)
In-Reply-To: <009401c2dd0e$320404c0$f90b9d3e@bockerma>
References: <1046179717.642.95244.m12@yahoogroups.com>
 <009401c2dd0e$320404c0$f90b9d3e@bockerma>
Message-ID: <2152863866.20030225135852@earthlink.net>



Hi,

Tuesday, February 25, 2003, 12:06:41 PM, m.bockermann at t-online.de wrote:

> I *was* able to spell my native language (German) for almost 20 years.
> Really. Truely. And then... what happened?

And I missed this change completely, since I was already
living in the US when it happened.

Is there a website that lists what is different now?

-- 
Best regards,
 Susanne                           mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net




From plumeski at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 26 03:09:06 2003
From: plumeski at yahoo.com (GulPlum <plumeski@yahoo.com>)
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 03:09:06 -0000
Subject: Fun with Apostrophes (LONG)
In-Reply-To: <b3easu+a3qq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b3hb4k+8iem@eGroups.com>

Thanks to everyone who replied to my original query (and those who 
chose to reply be email rather than to the list). Thanks also for 
getting my point that I wasn't out to offend anyone. Of the many 
replies, I've chosen to use Barb's as the basis for my reply because 
she raises a few issues in which I'm interested. I will, however, add 
some comments on a few other things people have said.

> There have in the past been folks on the main list who criticized 
> JKR's command of English, but for the life of me I can't recall the 
> specific complaints now.  A search of the archives may net you some 
> information on what some have found objectionable in her writing 
> style.

I don't know about "people", but I certainly remember one person in 
particular, as my reply to his comments (in mid-January last year) 
was my first post on the main list. :-) His principal argument was a 
tirade against JKR's use of "they" (and derivatives) as non-gender, 
non-number specific (traditionally, it has been exclusively plural, 
whereas nowadays it is considered an acceptable replacement for the 
messy "he/she" and variations, which he didn't seem to appreciate). 
Other complaints he had were were all "mis-translations" from the 
British to American editions, and the one he considered most serious 
and highlighted for ridicule was about a complicated sentence which 
included an unnecessary comma (though he chose to consider the whole 
sentence as ungrammatical rather than question the comma's 
insertion). 

(BTW all the above is from memory; I don't have the heart or time to 
battle Yahoomort to pull up the message.)

> Well, I don't know about "talking down."  But I do think you're 
> making an assumption that the problem is with the schools in a 
given 
> country rather than with the individuals involved.  

Ah-hah! <evil grin> You (and others) fell into a deliberate trap I 
laid in the way I phrased my question (you wouldn't believe how long 
it took me to put it *just* the right way). I didn't mean to question 
the American system, I just wanted to know whether or not *like here 
in the UK* these issues have lost importance in schools. I 
deliberately left the comparison out because I wanted to put American 
listees on the defensive and thus encourage more responses - I know 
from experience that nothing beats questioning America's greatness to 
get Americans to defend it. :-) As it happens, I didn't (and don't) 
question America's greatness, but left a deliberate suggestion which 
made such an accusation a reasonable reading (I made a series of 
unconnected statements, and left readers to join the dots...). I do 
apologise for the trap, but it's certainly paid off. 

Just looking around me, I see that Brits have exactly the same 
problem, and it's self-perpetuating. If teachers don't know the 
rules, how on earth are they to pass them on to the next generation? 

An example very close to me: my 22 year-old niece has just completed 
a liberal arts ("tourism and travel" or something like that) Masters 
and is now going on to train as a teacher - her plan is to move to 
Spain and teach English. The problem is that her latest dissertation 
(which she asked me to correct for her) was written in disastrous 
English and I don't think there was a single correctly-placed 
apostrophe in all 15 pages. She commented that her lecturer probably 
wouldn't have noticed anyway. 

Another example: two years ago, I was engaged as a translator by a 
prestigious London legal firm for a certain case (I won't bother you 
with the complicated details which hinged on an incompetent 
interpreter). The three-page letter to me which explained the 
circumstances and what they wanted from me had spelling, punctuation 
or syntactical errors in EVERY SINGLE SENTENCE. Some of these errors 
made the text ambiguous or incomprehensible. Considering lawyering is 
all about precision and clear expression, I questioned the lawyer's 
competence: if not in his own use of language, then in his choice of 
typist and his misplaced trust in her talents.

I really do despair.

<snip>

<Re: FA submission rules>

> The other Unforgivable is misspelling major canon 
> characters' names to such an extent that it would be a heinous 
> burden on our coders to correct the problem.  I have seen 
> many "imaginative" versions of our beloved HP characters' names.  
> Trust me.  You don't want to know.

I've seen enough in various HP forums, I get the drift. :-) Don't get 
me started! I must admit that I find this kind of error not only 
unforgivable, but incomprehensible. I mean, surely the authors of 
these fanfics have read the books? How is it possible to have read 
the books and not know that Harry's mum's name is Lily, or how to 
spell McGonagall? (posts inter alia on the main HPFGU list in the 24 
hours make those particular examples spring to mind). This isn't a 
question of education or knowledge, it's a question of 
straightforward repetition. How can people who claim to have read all 
the books several times not have noticed the spelling of frequent 
proper names? I'm prepared to offer a little leeway to people who 
read the books in one of the (few) translations which also translated 
the names, but even so, if these people are attempting to write 
stories in English, they should as a very basic necessity have been 
able to have read the books in that language.

<snip>

> I believe that the web is probably a more likely culprit 
> for this bad grammar and punctuation than the schools in any one 
> country.  While we did encounter (at FA) some folks who actually 
> said their English teachers taught them the wrong way to punctuate 
> dialogue (HOW did they become teachers?) there are so many people 
> reading things online written in incorrect English, whether on 
> mailing lists, bulletin boards or fanfiction archives, that they're 
> having the incorrect forms reinforced in their minds instead of the 
> correct forms.  

Mush as I love (and have benefitted from) the ease of online 
publication, I do agree that we are currently in a self-perpetuating 
maelstrom of lax language: kids don't read enough properly-written 
material taught by teachers who generally appear not to have a clue 
(because they're of a generation which wasn't taught the importance 
of correct language themselves). When I politely suggested to the 
teenage author of an otherwise terrific website with whom I'd had 
previous correspondence that he might want to put his text through a 
spell-checker, he simply couldn't understand *why*.

Some people have suggested that an apostrophe followed by the 
letter "s" is sometimes considered grammatical. I have yet to 
encounter anyone with the faintest idea of what they're talking about 
who might consider this appropriate. It's true that grammar and 
spelling aren't fixed but evolve over time, but apostrophes are 
unlikely to disappear from *correct* usage any time soon. People who 
have never learned to use them correctly are (thankfully) still in a 
minority when it comes to the professionally published word (and 
cerainly academia) and the "better" schools still churn out pupils 
with a reasonable standard of knowledge of these things. It's 
interesting that of the posters who replied in this thread, the 
majority choose to label themselves as "grammar purists" (or 
similar): I'm not sure whether or not this is a distorted view 
because people who don't know any better are too embarassed to reply, 
but it is nevertheless a sign that the battle is not yet quite lost.

I'm not conversant enough with American youth culture, but certainly 
here in the UK the main "culprit" in changing language use is not the 
internet, but text messaging (aka TXT MSGNG) :-) on cell phones, 
which is particularly popular with teenagers (and with me, as it 
happens). On my handset, for instance, displaying an apostrophe takes 
*13* presses of a particular key. I am the only person I know who 
insists on correct apostrophe usage in SMSes and I frequently get 
comments about it. The fact is that their usage is so deeply 
ingrained in my written English that I am physically incapable of 
skipping them. 

Correct apostrophe placement isn't an issue of formal or informal 
usage. Apostrophes have a vital role to play in meaning in English, 
and as informal as one might get, one cannot escape the difference 
they make. Even the most informal message suffers from their abuse 
and frankly, they become even MORE important as so much informal 
English consists of relaxed grammar, and thus syntax and punctuation 
become even mor important.

As far as online communication goes; sure, we're all informal and 
don't bother proof-reading what we write as much as we would do with 
letters; I make enough typos myself to be forgiving of others; the 
odd misplaced character is one thing, but when people consistently 
misapply the rules, I'm less inclined to believe that it's because of 
relaxation.

What gets me the most about apostrophe misuse is that unlike almost 
any other element of English writing (spelling, style, syntax, 
grammar, etc), the rules on apostrophe placement are: 

A) UNIVERSAL: all flavours of English, from Europe through Africa and 
Asia, through the Pacific and across the Americas, have identical 
rules governing the placement of apostrophes. 

B) SIMPLE and WITHOUT EXCEPTIONS. Some people claim that "its" is an 
exception, but it's (sic!) not that straighforward, and most 
textbooks mis-state the case by attempting to over-simplify it. The 
fact is that all personal pronouns in English are formed individually 
and irregularly, and that's why possessive pronouns do not take 
apostrophes (its, yours, his, hers, theirs, ours, etc - if one 
wouldn't write "the cat is in hi's box", why on earth would one write 
"the cat is in it's box"?). If you want/need a summary of the rules, 
see for instance http://www.apostrophe.fsnet.co.uk (regrettably, 
although the rules are well summarised, this site is one of those 
which confuses the "its" issue; I suggested over a year ago that they 
might want to change it, and despite a promise to do so, they haven't 
done anything about it). 

On that note, I think I'll climb down off my soap-box. I've gone on 
for long enough and it's time I was off to bed...







From catlady at wicca.net  Wed Feb 26 05:44:49 2003
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston) <catlady@wicca.net>)
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 05:44:49 -0000
Subject: Happy Birthday! / Cameras / Spelling / Sirius
Message-ID: <b3hk8h+olpn@eGroups.com>

Mary Ann wrote:

<< Ah, another birthday. I love this job! Today's birthday greetings 
go to Finwitch. >>

Hey! Happy Birthday, Finwitch! Tell your mother us Harry Potter 
weirdos thank her for bringing you into the world, so we can read 
your posts.

Torsten wrote:

<< To teach how it's like I installed some cameras in your house, and 
no, they're not behind the sprinklers. >>

:-) I hope you fancy extremely fat women with cats (-:

Ethanol wrote:

<< Is it possible that some of the spelling and grammatical sins are 
due to the poster being a non-native speaker (or writer, to be more 
exact)? >>

Most of the non-native English speakers write better spelling, 
grammer, and style than most of the native speakers ... I had no idea 
that you weren't a native speaker until you said so just now, but I 
would have counted you as one of the native speakers who do write 
well.

GulPlum wrote:

<< How is it possible to have read the books and not know that 
Harry's mum's name is Lily, or how to spell McGonagall? >>

Some people's minds just don't remember spelling (which I guess is 
kind of visual); they only remember the sounds and then try to 
recreate the spelling. And then they don't have the right/wrong 
feeling at the midline that I mentioned yesterday. And I do, but I 
don't have faith in my ability to spell McGonagall, and I have a 
profound inability to remember whether Evan Rosier is spelled with an 
S or a Z.

Beth belleps wrote:

<< So Sirius being the dogstar was something that I had heard 
somewhere along the way, but I just didn't think of it regarding HP 
until someone pointed it out. >>

The very first time I read the very first Harry Potter book, I saw 
the name 'young Sirius Black' (from whom Hagrid had borrowed the 
motorcycle) and immediately noticed that this Sirius guy is named 
after the brightest star. I wondered whether he was going to glow in 
the dark ... but I never, not after reading PoA twice and knowing 
very well that sexy Siri is Padfoot, thought that 'Sirius Black' is 
code for Black Dog until I read it in HPfGU.    




From jenP_97 at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 26 16:20:44 2003
From: jenP_97 at yahoo.com (Jennifer Piersol <jenP_97@yahoo.com>)
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 16:20:44 -0000
Subject: Fun with Apostrophes (LONG)
In-Reply-To: <b3hb4k+8iem@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b3ipgs+or29@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, 
GulPlum wrote:

I'm only going to comment on two separate 
issues here, so here goes the snipping...

<snippity snip>

> I must admit that I find this kind of error 
> not only unforgivable, but incomprehensible. 
> I mean, surely the authors of these fanfics 
> have read the books? How is it possible to 
> have read the books and not know that 
> Harry's mum's name is Lily, or how to spell 
> McGonagall? (posts inter alia on the main 
> HPFGU list in the 24 hours make those 
> particular examples spring to mind). This 
> isn't a question of education or knowledge, 
> it's a question of straightforward 
> repetition. How can people who claim to 
> have read all the books several times not 
> have noticed the spelling of frequent 
> proper names? I'm prepared to offer a 
> little leeway to people who read the books 
> in one of the (few) translations which 
> also translated the names, but even so, if 
> these people are attempting to write 
> stories in English, they should as a very 
> basic necessity have been able to have 
> read the books in that language.

Just to provide another possibility, I think 
there is at least one sight-impaired member 
on our board who has only "read" the audio 
versions of the books, and therefore has a 
hard time spelling some of the names.  
Another problem is the all-too-common "I'm 
replying because I just can't stop myself, 
but I don't have my books at hand, so bear 
with me" post.  McGonagall is a hard name 
for people unfamiliar with it, so I'm more 
than willing to forgive misspellings of 
names than of other words (which I'm willing 
to forgive as well).

<snip>

> Some people have suggested that an 
> apostrophe followed by the letter "s" is 
> sometimes considered grammatical. I have 
> yet to encounter anyone with the faintest 
> idea of what they're talking about who might 
> consider this appropriate. 

If I remember correctly, I believe that when 
one is talking about numbers and letters, it 
is acceptable to use 's.  The 1920's, for
example.  I usually tend to write 1920s (as 
I figure the lowercase 's' tells readers what 
I mean), but I don't think it's specifically
frowned upon to use an apostrophe in that 
situation.  And we all know about the 
ABCs/ABC's, right?  I can see someone coming 
up with the argument that we should write 
numbers out with a regular pluralized ending, 
but how do you spell out the letter 'a' when 
talking about a report card, for instance?  
You can say, "Back in the twenties I did
such-and-such," just as easily as you can 
say, "Back in the 20's I did something-or-
other."  But you can't give me another 
example of how to write, "I got three A's on 
my report card."  Unless it's 'As'.  And
that's too easily misread as the word 'as'.

> It's true that 
> grammar and spelling aren't fixed but evolve 
> over time, but apostrophes are unlikely to 
> disappear from *correct* usage any time 
> soon. People who have never learned to use 
> them correctly are (thankfully) still in a 
> minority when it comes to the 
> professionally published word (and cerainly 
> academia) and the "better" schools still 
> churn out pupils with a reasonable standard 
> of knowledge of these things. It's 
> interesting that of the posters who replied 
> in this thread, the majority choose to label 
> themselves as "grammar purists" (or 
> similar): I'm not sure whether or not this 
> is a distorted view because people who don't 
> know any better are too embarassed to reply, 
> but it is nevertheless a sign that the 
> battle is not yet quite lost.

There's only a battle to be fought at all if 
you think there's a "correct" way to write 
things in the first place.  ;)  I liked the 
argument that someone (David?) presented a 
few messages ago in this thread that before 
the industrial revolution and the printing 
press, spelling was nonstandard because it 
was unimportant.  Then, of course, Noah 
Webster and his British counterpart get a bug 
up... um... get a "bee in their bonnets" and 
start complaining that everyone's spelling 
everything wrong!  And about apostrophes - if 
you think about it, they're really just a 
silly convention for written English.  I mean, 
you don't actually pronounce apostrophes when 
you speak, do you?  Personally, as a linguist, 
I try not to get too upset when I see "mis-
written" English.  If you say what you see 
written, it's easy enough to get the gist of 
what the person is trying to say, and as 
speech was the original form of communicating 
ALL languages (except sign, of course), one 
could always make the argument that 
apostrophes are just mangling the way we have 
to process English in our heads.

That said, I still get really upset when 
someone pluralizes with 's.  Especially 
newspapers.

JenP, apologizing for the length of this one.




From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Wed Feb 26 16:53:20 2003
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David <dfrankiswork@netscape.net>)
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 16:53:20 -0000
Subject: Why Lilly?  + tiny rant (was Fun with Apostrophes)
In-Reply-To: <b3hb4k+8iem@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b3ire0+eoh5@eGroups.com>

Richard wrote:

> How is it possible to have read 
> the books and not know that Harry's mum's name is Lily, or how to 
> spell McGonagall? 

Jen has already pointed out that some people are only able to listen 
to the audio versions.  I would like to add that poverty is another 
possible (and acceptable) reason: I'm pretty sure people have said 
in the past that they are waiting for paperback versions (Is GOF out 
in paperback in the US now?).  Of course they can use libraries, but 
not full-time.  It says much for their resolve and ingenuity that 
they are able to participate in an internet forum at all.  (It 
sometimes bugs me that we make assumptions about education and 
class, that, if they were made about race or sexual orientation, 
would be regarded as completely unacceptable.  I would hate for the 
G in HPFGU to become a euphemism for 'graduate'.)

Anyway, my main question is, what is the reason for the very common 
spelling of Lilly for Lily?  I can see that McGonagall is a 
difficult name - I always hesitate over it myself - and many of the 
other common errors have some sort of common-sense basis.  But 
Lily?  Is it something to do with feeling that a word spelt Lily 
should be pronounced to rhyme with wily?  Is Lilly a name in its own 
right in the US?

David




From sevothtarte at gmx.net  Wed Feb 26 17:53:27 2003
From: sevothtarte at gmx.net (Torsten)
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 18:53:27 +0100
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Fun with Spelling and Grammar (was: Ultimate Guide)
In-Reply-To: <2152863866.20030225135852@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <VSSPMJ3VWRTRLKJ2YGEEB2WTN72XVD.3e5cff17@tk>

Susanne wrote:
>And I missed this change completely, since I was already
>living in the US when it happened.
>
>Is there a website that lists what is different now?

Try http://staff-www.uni-marburg.de/~schittek/rechtsch.htm

And then try to get used to spellings like "Seeelefant". *_*

-Torsten






From ken.kuller at veritas.com  Wed Feb 26 18:34:38 2003
From: ken.kuller at veritas.com (Kenneth M. Kuller <ken.kuller@veritas.com>)
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 18:34:38 -0000
Subject: Rules of Grammar
In-Reply-To: <b3hb4k+8iem@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b3j1bu+8kib@eGroups.com>

?1. Don't use no double negatives. 
?2. Its important to use apostrophe's correctly. 
?3. Watch out for irregular verbs which has cropped into our 
? ? language. 
?4. About sentence fragments. 
?5. Each pronoun agrees with their antecedent. 
?6. When dangling, you should be careful about participles. 
?7. Verbs has to agree with their subjects. 
?8. If any word is improper at the end of a sentence, a linking 
? ? verb is. 
?9. Remember to never split an infinitive. 
10. Don't abbrev., etc. 
11. Prepositions are not words to end sentences with. As 
? ? Winston Churchill once said, "This is something up with 
? ? which I shall not put." 
12. Eliminate quotations. As Ralph Waldo Emerson once said, 
? ? "I hate quotations. Tell me what you know." 
13. Place pronouns as close as possible, especially in long 
? ? sentences, as of 10 or more words, to their antecedents. 
14. Check to see if you any words out. 
15. In letters themes reports articles and stuff like that 
? ? you use commas to keep a string of objects apart. 
16. A writer must not shift your point of view as we write. 
17. Join clauses good, like a conjunction should. 
18. And don't start a sentence with a conjunction. 
19. Don't use run on sentences you've got to punctuate. 
20. Take the bull by the hand and avoid mixing metaphors?they 
? ? should be derailed, even when they sing. Weed out this 
? ? pain in the neck and throw it out the window with the 
? ? baby's bathwater! 
21. In my opinion, I think that an author, when he is writing, 
? ? should not get into the habit of making use of too many 
? ? unnecessary words that he does not need. 
22. Don't say the same thing more than once. It's redundant 
? ? and repetious. 
23. Always pick on the correct idiom. 
24. If you reread your work, you can find or rereading a 
? ? great deal of repetition can be avoided by rereading and 
? ? editing out more words than are necessary; they're highly 
? ? superfluous. 
25. The passive voice is to be avoided. 
26. Avoid trendy locutions that sound flaky. 
27. Everyone should be careful to use a singular pronoun with 
? ? singular nouns in their writing. 
28. Avoid alliteration?always. 
29. Parenthetical remarks (however relevant) are unnecessary. 
30. One should never generalize. 
31. Foreign words and phrases are not apropos. 
32. However, if you must use a foreign term, it is derigor to 
? ? italicize it and spell it correctly. 
33. Profanity sucks. 
34. Be more or less specific. 
35. Understatement is always best. 
36. Exaggeration is a billion times worse than understatement. 
37. One word sentences? Eliminate! 
38. Analogies in writing are like feathers on a snake. 
39. Go around the barn at high noon to avoid colloquialisms; 
? ? failure to do so may really gross people out. 
40. Who ds rhneeetorical questions? 
41. Last but not least, avoid dyed-in-the-wool clich?s like 
? ? the plague; they're old hat. Seek viable alternatives. 
42. Comparisons are as bad as clich?s. 
43. Employ the vernacular. 
44. Eschew ampersands & don't overuse exclamation marks!!!!! 
45. Only Proper Nouns should be capitalized. also a sentence 
? ? should begin with a capital and end with a period, 
46. Don't use commas, that aren't necessary. 
47. Use hyphens in compound-words, not just in any two-word 
? ? phrase. 
48. Consult the dictionery freqently too avoid mispelling, and 
? ? proo fread your work! 
49. Use orthodox spelling thruout. 
50. Don't overuse "legal" phraseology; the aforesaid does not, 
? ? however, proscribe, foreclose and/or abolish, pro tanto, 
? ? each and every exception hereinafter described, respectively, 
? ? in regard thereto. 
51. Unless it is not really warranted, try not to put language 
? ? in anything but positive form. 
52. It behooves us all to avoid archaic expressions. 
53. Do not use hyperbole; not one writer in a million can use 
? ? it effectively. 
54. Avoid the utilization of enlarged words when a diminutive 
? ? one will suffice. 
55. Puns are for children, not for readers who are groan. 
56. As far as incomplete constructions, they are wrong. 
57. Do not use adverbs unusually. 
58. Make sure you hyp-henate properly. 
59. Perform a functional iterative analysis on your work to 
? ? root out third-generation transitional buzz words. 
60. Use parallel construction not only to be concise but also 
? ? clarify. 





From ken.kuller at veritas.com  Wed Feb 26 18:38:18 2003
From: ken.kuller at veritas.com (Kenneth M. Kuller <ken.kuller@veritas.com>)
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 18:38:18 -0000
Subject: Rules of Grammar
In-Reply-To: <b3j1bu+8kib@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b3j1iq+373c@eGroups.com>

Isn't it amazing how errors can creep into even the most carefully 
edited work?  Rule 40 should have been:

40. Who needs rhetorical questions? 





From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 26 19:14:00 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve <bboy_mn@yahoo.com>)
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 19:14:00 -0000
Subject: Why Lilly?  + tiny rant & Mind Tricks
In-Reply-To: <b3ire0+eoh5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b3j3lo+jb3l@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "David <dfrankiswork at n...>"
<dfrankiswork at n...> wrote:
> Richard wrote:
> 
> > How is it possible to have read 
> > the books and not know that Harry's mum's name is Lily, or how to 
> > spell McGonagall? 
> 
> Jen has already pointed out that some people are only able to listen 
> to the audio versions.  ...edited...
> 
> ..., what is the reason for the very common spelling of Lilly for 
> Lily?  I can see that McGonagall is a difficult name - I always 
> hesitate over it myself - and many of the other common errors have 
> some sort of common-sense basis.  But  Lily?  Is it something to do 
> with feeling that a word spelt Lily should be pronounced to rhyme 
> with wily?  Is Lilly a name in its own right in the US?
> 
> David

bboy_mn:

A mind is a wonderful but sometimes a devilishly tricky thing. 

I have a mild (undiagnosed) form of dyslexia. Generally, it has never
been a real problem; I've easily adapted to it, but that adaptation
comes with some compromises. Words of a certain length or certain
structure don't register in my mind. Because they are jumbled, my
adaptaion has been to treat them as images. 

I have alway read a lot, that is, a lot compared to all the illiterate
rednecks I grew up with. I have a college degree in science, made the
Dean's list several times, Sigma Zeta Sicence Honor Society, I have a
better vocabulary than most people I know, etc.... But there are words
that I have read many many times, words which I fully understand, but
at the sametime, my mind having converted them into images, I don't
know how to spell them or pronounce them. I know them when I see them,
but that's all.

Next... White Trash. Sorry, not a nice thing to say because the people
I grew up around were good people just as Roseanne Bar (the commedian,
 TV show- Roseanne) is a good person, but just like Roseanne Bar, they
were truly uneducated, redneck, white trash. Sadly, some of them seem
to cultivate stupidity and ignorance as if it were an asset. Plus, I'm
of Norwegian. Ya sure, you betcha' I am. Point? There are certain
speech patterns, idioms, and quirks of the English language that are
ingrained in me; that have been a part of my life of language since
birth, so there is no escaping them. Heaven knows I've tried. 

Now... the English language. Once again sorry, but it is a nasty
language. Based on my limited memory there are 3,000 rules and what...
something like 10,000 exceptions to those rules, and you wonder why
people can't figure out where to put their commas and semicolons. 

Then of course, there are pronunciation and application of the English
language. Pardon me while I tear (tare) myself away to wipe the tear
(tier) out of my eye. ...and a thousand other examples of how the
English language must drive foreigners nuts.

Compound that with the English language being a hodgepodge of all the
other European languages living and dead, and you have a language that
is not the easiest to work with. The Thai alphabet has something like
42 characters, one character for each sound in the language. Where as
any given character in the English language can have a dozen (maybe an
exageration) sounds applied to it. And, I've already pointed out how a
given word ('tear' among many others) can have multiple
pronounciations.  I'm surprised we don't all have ulcers.

Now... political correctness. Sadly... most sadly... political
correctness has corrupted the educational system, as if it didn't have
enough problems are ready. Heaven forbid that some child should feel
bad because they got something wrong. No no... it's much better to
structure classes so that everyone gets a 'smiley face' sticker at the
end of the day. If you don't challenge them they can't fail. What they
forget is that, sadly, if you don't challenge them, they can't succeed.

That combined with a hidden practice that went on for a long time, and
 probably still does. Rather than teach a child or fail a child who
doesn't learn, they pass them on to the next grade anyway on the
misguided assumption that they are picking up something along the way.
I DO NOT blame this on the teachers. This is a problem with
administration. The teacher appeals to the administration for help
because a student is failing, and the administration drops it back in
the teacher lap and say that they are not teaching. While the teachers
and adminstration play political mind games, the student gets lost.
Many many students have graduated for high school completely
illiterate. They can't even read at a basic grade/elemetary school level. 

Surveys have shown that many American student for a variety of reasons
including but also beyond education, can't find Europe on a globe. The
self-proclaimed greatest country in the world, whose students aren't
even in the top ten world wide in science and math (should really look
that one up. Even if it's not precisely accurate, it's still a valid
illustration).

Finally, people just don't seem to care anymore. If they can
communicate in the most basic ways, they are satisfied. Somehow life
has more important priorities than where does the comma go. So the
commas, semicolons, and apostrophes get left behind in a world that
moves much too fast to be delayed by such mundane matters.

So while I can explain the sad state of the English language and why
people make the mistakes that they do, I can't really justify it. 

Sorry for the long rant. Just a few thoughts I had.

bboy_mn





From siskiou at earthlink.net  Wed Feb 26 18:06:15 2003
From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne)
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 10:06:15 -0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Fun with Spelling and Grammar (was: Ultimate Guide)
In-Reply-To: <VSSPMJ3VWRTRLKJ2YGEEB2WTN72XVD.3e5cff17@tk>
References: <VSSPMJ3VWRTRLKJ2YGEEB2WTN72XVD.3e5cff17@tk>
Message-ID: <14125317434.20030226100615@earthlink.net>



Hi,

Wednesday, February 26, 2003, 9:53:27 AM, sevothtarte at gmx.net wrote:

> Try http://staff-www.uni-marburg.de/~schittek/rechtsch.htm

> And then try to get used to spellings like "Seeelefant". *_*

Ack! That's gruesome!

And all my old children's books I brought with me to teach
my daughter to read in German are now completely outdated!

Are they planning on changing the spelling in older books?

I'm not sure I'll ever completely grasp the new German,
since I'm not using it often enough in the written form, and
I don't think my parents or sister are going to correct my
letters :}

Thanks for sending the link!

-- 
Best regards,
 Susanne                           mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net




From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca  Wed Feb 26 20:11:37 2003
From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (lucky_kari <lucky_kari@yahoo.ca>)
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 20:11:37 -0000
Subject: Earliest Memories of the World Outside (was Forcing Kids To Watch History Made)
In-Reply-To: <b3cdqf+klrn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b3j71p+kd21@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "ssk7882 <skelkins at a...>" 
<skelkins at a...> wrote:
> So what are you saying here?  That you're less...less *well-
adapted*
> than I am?  That you're sicker, perhaps?  More twisted?  More Bent?
> Them's fighting words, Eileen.

Oh, no, no, of course not. I wouldn't dream of it, really. Please, 
put that paddle down. 

> So how about that Percy identification, then?  Do you think
> that believing yourself to be under constant surveillance 
> might have encouraged you to adopt a rule-abiding persona?  
> Or was the cause and effect reversed?  Or none of the above?

Very good question. Only one thing for sure. I was never anything 
but a model student through school because of the cameras. Even when 
I was perversely tempted to paste "World War I" and "World War II" 
on the display case of Germany's contributions to the world, I 
didn't because of the cameras. 

Of course, once I discovered that the cameras didn't exist, I was 
too stuck in my ways to start thumbing my nose at the authorities. 

But then, as you suggested, perhaps I dreamed the cameras up because 
I have a rule-abiding personality. It is true that I recently 
managed to convince myself that the Registrar and Information 
Services were in cahoots, and would kick anyone out of University 
who was surfing recreational sites on the computers designated for 
schoolwork. Which apparently is not true...

Perhaps this is all reflection of how *I* would do things, if I were 
in charge. Or perhaps I just want to convince myself that the non 
rule-abiders will suffer, and I will be rewarded. 

> Do you want me to stop asking prying questions about your 
> psyche in a public forum?  ;-)

Not particularly. 

> Eileen:
> > Oh, they're very ordinary. Molly and Arthur Weasley. Do you 
think 
> > they did anything to encourage my paranoiac fantasies? 
> 
> You mean, other than leading you to believe that your Mayor ate 
> babies? 

Well, to tell the truth, I think my mother did encourage me in that 
belief. She really didn't like that Mayor. Something to do with the 
great fight over Transportation... 

But then my mother is rather terrible about certain things. She 
pretended to my two year old brother that she was being dragged 
outside by a wolf the other day, and go and get Dad. Nicholas is 
still convinced that Dad saved her from the wolf. 

Eileen




From sevothtarte at gmx.net  Wed Feb 26 20:24:10 2003
From: sevothtarte at gmx.net (Torsten)
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 21:24:10 +0100
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Earliest Memories of the World Outside (was Forcing Kids To Watch History Made)
In-Reply-To: <b3j71p+kd21@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <94971TSUPKMHWQ942YSQTP21C4XD0.3e5d226a@tk>

Eileen wrote:
>Very good question. Only one thing for sure. I was never anything 
>but a model student through school because of the cameras.

Interesting. My cameras didn't stop me from doing anything, they only made me feel 
double ashamed afterwards if I did something 'wrong' ...

-Torsten






From risako at nexusanime.com  Wed Feb 26 23:14:16 2003
From: risako at nexusanime.com (Melissa McCarthy)
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 19:14:16 -0400
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Fun with Apostrophes (LONG)
References: <b3ipgs+or29@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <002f01c2ddec$c93c7c80$b5a594d1@vaio>

JenP said:
> If I remember correctly, I believe that when
> one is talking about numbers and letters, it
> is acceptable to use 's.  The 1920's, for
> example.

IIRC there's a manual of style that allows pluralizing with 's, but the
Chicago Manual of Style doesn't.  According to its rules, "the 1920s" is
correct.  If you want to shorten it, "the '20s" is correct.

>But you can't give me another
> example of how to write, "I got three A's on
> my report card."  Unless it's 'As'.  And
> that's too easily misread as the word 'as'.

Actually, there is a way: "A"s.  I got three "A"s on my report card.

> I liked the
> argument that someone (David?) presented a
> few messages ago in this thread that before
> the industrial revolution and the printing
> press, spelling was nonstandard because it
> was unimportant.  Then, of course, Noah
> Webster and his British counterpart get a bug
> up... um... get a "bee in their bonnets" and
> start complaining that everyone's spelling
> everything wrong!

Webster had a point.  When the Bible first started being copied in
monasteries, words were allbuncheduptogetherlikethis.  Monks introduced
spaces to keep words from being misread.  Spelling and grammar became
standardized when books started becoming more affordable to make it easier
for people to read and understand them.  Rules exist to make it easier to
understand written language, and I would say that they're even more
necessary with the rapid growth of electronic communication.

> If you say what you see
> written, it's easy enough to get the gist of
> what the person is trying to say

In an age of free public education, no one should have to read a message
aloud simply to be able to get the gist of it.  Typos happen, and that's
fine.  Not everyone is a native speaker of English; I have nothing but
respect for those who have the courage to post on lists in a language which
is foreign to them.  But grammar rules and correct spellings are important.
These rules, as I said above, exist to facilitate communication, and I see
no reason not to expect native speakers to follow them to the best of their
ability.

> That said, I still get really upset when
> someone pluralizes with 's.  Especially
> newspapers.

Our local newspaper is infamous for the grammatical mistakes in its
headlines.  "Students happy their getting representation" (or something like
that... "students happy their getting" something or other) is one of the
more recent ones.  But they don't seem to pluralize with 's that often, for
which I suppose I should be grateful <g>

Melissa, who agrees with Orwell that people who are incapable of writing
clearly are also incapable of thinking clearly






From plumeski at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 27 01:12:45 2003
From: plumeski at yahoo.com (GulPlum <plumeski@yahoo.com>)
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 01:12:45 -0000
Subject: Fun with Apostrophes (LONG)
In-Reply-To: <002f01c2ddec$c93c7c80$b5a594d1@vaio>
Message-ID: <b3jomd+pkm4@eGroups.com>

Melissa wrote a bunch of stuff with which I agree wholeheartedly, but 
on which I have a few comments...

> Actually, there is a way: "A"s.  I got three "A"s on my report card.

Thanks. You took the words not so much out of my mouth as from under 
my fingers. :-)

<snip>

> Webster had a point.  Rules exist to make it easier to
> understand written language, and I would say that they're even more
> necessary with the rapid growth of electronic communication.

Quite. Incidentally, as it happens, something in the last few 
messages has made me scratch my head. Several people have mentioned 
Webster, but his was in fact one of the *last* great dictionaries, 
preceded as he was by Russian, French, Spanish and Italian 
lexicographers in the early 17th century, then Johnson in England in 
1755; Webster's first edition wasn't published until 1828. It's 
hardly as if Webster was a great inventor of standardising language. 

Actually, and germane to the issues at stake here, Webster wrote his 
dictionary specifically as an answer to Johnson's because as a 
staunch Republican he felt that American English needed to strike out 
on its own, in its own direction, and he invented a whole series of 
spellings in a deliberate effort to be different from Johnson. 

Lexicography at the service of politics. :-)

As a philologist rather than as a Brit, I find Johnson's achievements 
to be superior, in that his approach was quite the opposite to 
Webster's. Where Webster wanted to extol the great men of his time 
(he included proper nouns which Johnson deliberately omitted) and had 
a prescriptivist attitude to lexicography, Johnson saw his job as 
recording the history and usage of words, rather than imposing his 
views. Although Jonhson's was by far not the first English 
dictionary, he invented the idea of including variant spellings of 
words, and although his choices were frequently arbitrary, his 
primary spellings (which have come down to us as the "preferred" or 
even "correct" ones) were those used in the educated London circles 
he frequented, which is understandable. Even so, despite being an 
academic, his dictionary included an extraordinary number of utterly 
non-academic and regional terminology.

It is Johnson whom we should thank for the fact that unlike the other 
great international languages (French, Italian, Spanish, German), 
there is no body of august people telling us how we should use the 
language and imposing their vision of what is "correct". He opposed 
the creation of an "Acamdemie Anglaise" and the English language's 
fluidity and openness to change over the last 250 years would not 
have been so transparent if his objections hadn't been noted. 

So why are those underlining the natural mutation of language talking 
about Webster? :-)

> Melissa, who agrees with Orwell that people who are incapable of
> writing clearly are also incapable of thinking clearly

Now that is something with which I must strenuouly disagree. :-) I'll 
give you one example as an illustration. A friend of mine, with whom 
I've collaborated on several projects, is intelligent, well spoken 
and one of the clearest thinkers I know. However, he is almost 
incapable of putting his thoughts on paper and if he is forced to, 
tends to ramble uncontrollably (his handwriting, incidentally, is 
beautifully neat). I, on the other hand, am almost incapable of 
presenting a cogent argument in speech (I have no speech impediments 
or anything like that) and tend to spend ages trying to find 
*exactly* the word I want - people are known to have complete 
conversations in the pauses I leave between words. ;-) However, if I 
have the chance to put my thoughts on paper I tend to flow a lot more 
easily and *tend* not to ramble anywhere nearly as much. My 
handwriting, incidentally, is generally considered to be illegible, 
even to myself. :-)

Ever since I moved from London, our communications are usually emails 
from me to him, and telephone calls from him to me. :-)

In other words, some people are better at clear thinking in the 
written form, and some in oral. To be honest, I regard those with 
oral abilities more highly, as what they say can always be written 
down. People who think better when writing have to wait for someone 
to read their words. :-)





From melclaros at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 27 01:31:36 2003
From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros <melclaros@yahoo.com>)
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 01:31:36 -0000
Subject: Duct Tape, Plastic Sheeting, and Wolfsbane?
Message-ID: <b3jppo+3vfp@eGroups.com>

Sorry, I couldn't resist. Y'all should get a kick out of this. Hope 
it's a good link, sometimes The Onion is funny like that:

http://www.theonion.com/onion3905/ashcroft_orders_staff.html

Melpomene




From melclaros at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 27 01:59:12 2003
From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros <melclaros@yahoo.com>)
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 01:59:12 -0000
Subject: Earliest Memories of the World Outside (was Forcing Kids To Watch History Made)
In-Reply-To: <b3cdqf+klrn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b3jrdg+e9pc@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "ssk7882 <skelkins at a...>" 
<skelkins at a...> wrote:
> Eileen wrote:
> 
> > While Elkins lived a horrible childhood underneath real cameras 
> > disguised as sprinklers, I, of course, lived a childhood under 
> > sprinklers which I thought were cameras. 
> 
> So what are you saying here?  That you're less...less *well-adapted*
> than I am?  That you're sicker, perhaps?  More twisted?  More Bent?
> 
> Them's fighting words, Eileen.
> 

Oh hey now! Just because you're not paranoid doesn't mean they're NOT 
out to get you! Watch your back!

Mel
Waiting for the "Grammar Police" to come take her away.




From urbana at charter.net  Thu Feb 27 04:01:52 2003
From: urbana at charter.net (Anne <urbana@charter.net>)
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 04:01:52 -0000
Subject: Fun with Apostrophes (LONG)
In-Reply-To: <002f01c2ddec$c93c7c80$b5a594d1@vaio>
Message-ID: <b3k2jg+3rn7@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Melissa McCarthy" > wrote: 
> Our local newspaper is infamous for the grammatical mistakes in its
> headlines.  "Students happy their getting representation" (or 
something like
> that... "students happy their getting" something or other) is one 
of the
> more recent ones. 


This is one of my pet peeves ... people working "the slot" (writing 
headlines for a newspaper's copy desk) who misspell words and use the 
wrong word (their/there/they're etc.) I am frequently appalled at the 
number and kinds of typos that appear in American newspapers. It 
makes me think that journalism schools will graduate pretty much 
anyone these days. I do recall when I attended J-school in the 
early '80s, we had to pass something called the J.U.T. (Journalism 
Usage Test) in order to get into the journalism program. The J.U.T. 
seemed, to me, to be basic 3rd or 5th grade English usage - but 
apparently some people had to take it more than once in order to pass 
it <shudder>.

Anne U
(frequent spelling Nazi)





From urbana at charter.net  Thu Feb 27 04:10:27 2003
From: urbana at charter.net (Anne <urbana@charter.net>)
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 04:10:27 -0000
Subject: Fun with Apostrophes (LONG)
In-Reply-To: <b3jomd+pkm4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b3k33j+n53m@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "GulPlum <plumeski at y...>" 
<plumeski at y...> wrote:

> > Melissa, who agrees with Orwell that people who are incapable of
> > writing clearly are also incapable of thinking clearly
> 
> Now that is something with which I must strenuouly disagree. :-) 
I'll 
> give you one example as an illustration. A friend of mine, with 
whom 
> I've collaborated on several projects, is intelligent, well spoken 
> and one of the clearest thinkers I know. However, he is almost 
> incapable of putting his thoughts on paper and if he is forced to, 
> tends to ramble uncontrollably (his handwriting, incidentally, is 
> beautifully neat). I, on the other hand, am almost incapable of 
> presenting a cogent argument in speech (I have no speech 
impediments 
> or anything like that) and tend to spend ages trying to find 
> *exactly* the word I want - people are known to have complete 
> conversations in the pauses I leave between words. ;-) However, if 
I 
> have the chance to put my thoughts on paper I tend to flow a lot 
more 
> easily and *tend* not to ramble anywhere nearly as much. My 
> handwriting, incidentally, is generally considered to be illegible, 
> even to myself. :-)

Richard, you sound a lot like me. I'm great with written words, but 
often have a terrible time making verbal arguments or even completing 
thoughts out loud ;-) This just means (according to a theory called 
Perceptual Thinking Patterns) that you and I have a different type of 
learning pattern than your friend does. I'd go into more about this 
but it's a complicated theory - but I'm very impressed with it 
because it has helped me explain (to myself and others) a lot about 
why I NEED to write things down and DO NOT learn things merely by 
hearing them.

> 
> Ever since I moved from London, our communications are usually 
emails 
> from me to him, and telephone calls from him to me. :-)

EXACTLY!!! I'm the same way. People I know (including my parents) 
often wait weeks or months for me to return phone calls - but I'll 
email them back the same night.
> 
> In other words, some people are better at clear thinking in the 
> written form, and some in oral. To be honest, I regard those with 
> oral abilities more highly, as what they say can always be written 
> down. People who think better when writing have to wait for someone 
> to read their words. :-)

Yes, that's certainly true. Let's hope what we've written is worth 
waiting for :-)

Anne U
(aka KVA, "A at the back")





From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk  Thu Feb 27 04:12:10 2003
From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte)
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 04:12:10 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Fun with Apostrophes (LONG)
References: <b3k2jg+3rn7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3E5D901A.000004.51113@monica>


 Anne declared -
 
This is one of my pet peeves ... people working "the slot" (writing 
headlines for a newspaper's copy desk) who misspell words and use the 
wrong word (their/there/they're etc.) I am frequently appalled at the 
number and kinds of typos that appear in American newspapers. It 
makes me think that journalism schools will graduate pretty much 
anyone these days. I do recall when I attended J-school in the 
early '80s, we had to pass something called the J.U.T. (Journalism 
Usage Test) in order to get into the journalism program. The J.U.T. 
seemed, to me, to be basic 3rd or 5th grade English usage - but 
apparently some people had to take it more than once in order to pass 
it <shudder>.
 
Anne U
(frequent spelling Nazi)
 
Oh I am so with you on that. I nearly drove myself mad trying to explain to
one of my less literary friends why the Sun's headline of "Romeo, Romeo,
Whyfore art thou Romeo?" (after the birth of David 'Goldenballs' Beckham's
son) annoyed me so much. Although I admit that the majority of the Sun's
readership probably wouldn't have known that wherefore meant why and so
would have been confused, but mangling a quote, which would have been
perfect in its original form, really grated. 

The Independent has a column each Saturday where one of their writers
nitpicks that week's editions of the paper for grammatical and stylistic
errors. It's a good read - one of his pet peeves recently was the use of the
phrase "The Al-Qaieda terrorist group" (OK I admit I can't spell that).
Since Al means the anyway the 'the' is redundant.

K



From natmichaels at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 27 13:49:39 2003
From: natmichaels at hotmail.com (lorien_eve <natmichaels@hotmail.com>)
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 13:49:39 -0000
Subject: Fun with Spelling and Grammar (was: Ultimate Guide)
In-Reply-To: <009401c2dd0e$320404c0$f90b9d3e@bockerma>
Message-ID: <b3l51j+okco@eGroups.com>

In *most* cases, I can tell if a person is a native speaker or not. 
Not with his or her first post, but over time, reading several of 
the posts. Often they make the same grammar or spelling mistakes. 
I'm a member in a LOTR group that has members from all over the 
world. Most are very good at typing in English and are very 
understandable, even if their grammar or spelling isn't perfect.

Lorien_Eve


--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, m.bockermann at t... wrote
> 
> Is it possible that some of the spelling and grammatical sins are 
due to the poster being a non-native speaker (or writer, to be more 
exact)? I noticed that there are people from all over the world here 
and when English is your second language, the correct application of 
their/there or its/it's or such might can be really hard. 
> 
> Or can you native speakers tell another native speaker with 
language problems from a non-native speaker? I'm not being sarcastic 
here, I'm really curious. Can you native speakers tell wether a 
poster is native or not? I'm not being sarcastic here, I'm really 
curious. I'm not a native speaker myself, so I wonder if you can 
spot us from a mile away or only notice it by accident.
> 
> I *was* able to spell my native language (German) for almost 20 
years. Really. Truely. And then... what happened? They went ahead 
and *changed* the rules!!! Now I am unhappily living ever after in 
total Babylonian confusion. *Knowing* the rules is not enough to 
break 20 years of habit, training and indoctrination it really 
*******s when your pupils know their spelling better than you do.  )-
:
> 
> Greetings,
> Ethanol




From natmichaels at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 27 13:56:19 2003
From: natmichaels at hotmail.com (lorien_eve <natmichaels@hotmail.com>)
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 13:56:19 -0000
Subject: Ultimate Unofficial Guide
In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20030225170001.00a28b30@pop.cox-internet.com>
Message-ID: <b3l5e3+8h10@eGroups.com>

Thanks for defending the rest of us who didn't know what Sirius was, 
either! I knew the name related to a constellation or star or 
*something*, but I didn't know it was the dog star. Like you, I only 
found that out once I joined a HP group. Same thing with Remus. I 
read "Mythology" by Edith Hamilton probably ten years ago, and while 
I know several Greek gods, I can't remember all the other stories, 
places, and people. I should've caught that "Lupin" was a Latin root 
for "wolf." That was something I actually *should* have remembered 
from studying language root words. But oh, well. I don't think it's 
something that's just *common* knowledge.

Lorien_Eve 


--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Beth <belleps at o...> wrote:
> At 01:06 PM 2/24/03 +0000, you wrote:
> >Bullfinch's Guide of sorts for
> >the literary allusions, all of which are pretty easy to discover, 
if
> >not patently obvious from the start (again, does she really think 
we
> >need to be *told* that Sirius is the dogstar, and also 
that "Sirius
> >Black" means Black Dog? Maybe the twelve-year-olds, but... Yeesh).
> 
> (This isn't a comment on the book -- I don't think I've seen this 
one.)
> 
> Well <ahem>, actually <blush>, I didn't get the references about 
Sirius 
> until I started reading HPfGU. One of my roommates in college 
(many, many 
> years ago) used to get VERY frustrated with me. She was a teaching 
> assistant for astronomy, and she'd walk out at night and say 
things like, 
> "Oooo, look! Cassiopeia, Orion, the Seven Sisters...." and I'd 
look up and 
> say, "Stars! Pretty!" <grin> So Sirius being the dogstar was 
something that 
> I had heard somewhere along the way, but I just didn't think of it 
> regarding HP until someone pointed it out.
> 
> bel




From lupinesque at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 27 14:08:41 2003
From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z <lupinesque@yahoo.com>)
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 14:08:41 -0000
Subject: Waaaaaaaaaah!
Message-ID: <b3l659+8888@eGroups.com>

Mr. Rogers died!

Very sad,
Amy Z




From jenP_97 at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 27 15:48:48 2003
From: jenP_97 at yahoo.com (Jennifer Piersol <jenP_97@yahoo.com>)
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 15:48:48 -0000
Subject: Waaaaaaaaaah!
In-Reply-To: <b3l659+8888@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b3lc10+6n4t@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Amy Z 
<lupinesque at y...>" <lupinesque at y...> wrote:
> Mr. Rogers died!
> 
> Very sad,
> Amy Z

Yes yes yes.  I actually started crying when 
my husband told me this this morning, and 
Ginger (turns 4 on the 10th) asked me what was 
wrong.  Then I had to deal with whether or not 
to tell her!

I ended up telling her, but my husband said 
that we'd be able to see him on television for 
a long, long time, and she seemed to perk up a 
little.

Sad day.  Especially for those of us who grew 
up with him.

-JenP, who specifically remembers the episode 
where he found that one of his fish had died 
and spent the whole episode talking about 
death and then buried it.




From sushi at societyhappens.com  Thu Feb 27 15:55:57 2003
From: sushi at societyhappens.com (Sushi)
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 09:55:57 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Waaaaaaaaaah!
In-Reply-To: <b3l659+8888@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030227095436.00d15100@mail.societyhappens.com>

At 02:08 PM 2/27/03 +0000, you wrote:
>Mr. Rogers died!
>
>Very sad,
>Amy Z

         This is a sad, sad day in the Land of Make Believe. =(

Sushi


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From tahewitt at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 27 17:53:39 2003
From: tahewitt at yahoo.com (Tyler Hewitt)
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 09:53:39 -0800 (PST)
Subject: rules of grammar
In-Reply-To: <1046351186.592.8514.m12@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20030227175339.70523.qmail@web14208.mail.yahoo.com>

Kenneth M. Kuller's Rules of Grammar had me laughing
aloud. Thanks!

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/



From sevothtarte at gmx.net  Thu Feb 27 19:19:04 2003
From: sevothtarte at gmx.net (Torsten)
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 20:19:04 +0100
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Fun with Spelling and Grammar (was: Ultimate Guide)
In-Reply-To: <14125317434.20030226100615@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <T96ZY63F8472HCOMB6YVED7M04TQ.3e5e64a8@tk>

Susanne wrote:
>Ack! That's gruesome!
>
>And all my old children's books I brought with me to teach
>my daughter to read in German are now completely outdated!
>
>Are they planning on changing the spelling in older books?

It's all rather complicated ... There was a huge uproar about the reform, many people 
refused to accept it, some federal countries/teachers tried to refuse to teach it, a big 
newspaper refused to adjust ... Some authors, like Grass, refused their books being 
printed according to the new rules.
And it all cost a lot of money, reprinting important books, schools had to buy new 
books, everyone had to buy new Dudens and so on. I'm sure they didn't just publish 
new editions for normal books (fiction, children's books) just for the sake of having an 
edition with fixed spellings and grammar, but if a they release a new edition normally 
because a book sells well, they surely fix it. Unless the author refuses.

>I'm not sure I'll ever completely grasp the new German,
>since I'm not using it often enough in the written form, and
>I don't think my parents or sister are going to correct my
>letters :}

Well, in general it does make more sense and is easier to learn. Kids and foreigners 
learning German have it easier, but for grown-ups using the old form all their life it's 
difficult to adjust. My main complaint is that the reform is good but not consequent 
enough, they didn't go all the way. There's no da anymore, only das and dass. Fine, 
but why not get rid of  totally?

I didn't like the uproar about it, though, because it's not as if nobody knew the reform 
was coming. But they all started complaining only after everything had been done, way 
too late. And that crap about going on to teach kids the old rules - how stupid! I think 
Hamburg was one of the countries refusing to adjust, which would be terrible for the 
kids. They'd grow up learning officially wrong rules. They might do fine in their 
schools, but if they go to universitiy in another federal country or get a job in which 
they have to correspond with people from there, they'd be screwed.

And it's of course a lot of intolerance and lazieness. Yes, Seeelefant looks just crazy to 
the eyes of grown-ups, but there's a limit to how much fuss you can make about it. 
Just go and practice and get used to it, is it too much to ask to make some effort?

Don't worry about your grasp of German or your kids, the new rules aren't THAT 
much different anybody has trouble understanding someone else. And many people, 
like me, are still insecure about many spellings which of course leads to more tolerance 
regarding the mistakes of others. I make many more mistakes in writing German than 
before the reform, because the old rules are still too stuck in my mind. But hey, it's for 
the greater good. ^_~ If it helps kids get a better grasp of the language and make less 
mistakes, and makes it easier for non-natives to learn German, that's the best we could 
ask for, IMHO.

-Torsten





From plumeski at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 27 20:24:22 2003
From: plumeski at yahoo.com (GulPlum <plumeski@yahoo.com>)
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 20:24:22 -0000
Subject: Chicago
Message-ID: <b3ls5m+mv9h@eGroups.com>

I am currently living an obssessive relationship with the Chicago 
soundtrack CD and I keep feeling that these songs make for excellent 
Potterverse filking. I know that CMC did a couple of songs a while 
ago, but I see more possibilities. 

As it happens, I am utterly dire at anything approaching poetry, 
getting words to rhyme, or fitting words to music. I'm particularly 
bad at filking, as I have difficulty escaping the original words. 
I've not attempted to put new words to music, but what got me is that 
the original songs with just a few changes here and there fit some 
Potterverse scenes/characters very well. 

I therefore wondered if any of the talented filkers around here might 
want to have a go. These are some of the things I noticed, which 
consist mainly of single phrases from the original songs which appear 
appropriate or need just a little tweaking.

Songs in CD/Film order (they don't make a narrative whole in the 
Potterverse, they're just some individual scenes, of which some are 
not quite canon). Yes, I know that most of these suggestions are 
extremely lame. I *did* say I was crap at this, but I needed to get 
it out of my system. :-)

"(And) All That Jazz"="The Dark Lord's Back": GoF, Ch 1: Voldemort 
talks over his plans with Wormtail and thinks back to his days of 
glory. Key phrase: "I'm gonna cast a curse/And then some more/The 
Dark Lord's Back!".

"Funny Honey": PoA, end of Ch 12: Ron discovers bloody stains on his 
bed and assuming Scabbers is dead, sings of his relationship with his 
pet. Key phrase: "That lazy, crazy, lovely/Rodent of mine". The last 
verse (in the original, as Amos spills the beans) is transported to 
after the Shrieking Shack when Ron knows the score, ending 
with: "That lying, cheating, murd'ring/Rodent ain't mine".

"When You're Good To Mama": GoF, the Graveyard: Voldemort lays into 
the Death Eaters: "If you're with the Dark Lord/I won't Crucio you." 
(of course, sung with menage rather than cynicism and needs a 
completely different musical arrangement). I'm having trouble 
working "If you want my gravy/Pepper my ragout" into a reference to 
the rebirth Potion. :-)

"Cell Block Tango": Either the graveyard again with the DEs 
justifying themselves, or an invented scene in Azkaban with the 
imprisoned guys saying what they've done (yeah, I know that one's 
very low on canon support). Of course, this is a recitative but the 
chorus needs almost no tweaking at all. (Although I adore the dark 
humour of the original and the "punchlines" crease me up every time, 
that aspect of the song doesn't work in our context.)

"All I Care About": Snape sings "All I care about is Harry". The 
chorus-line intro becomes an integral part of the song, and there are 
no chorus interruptions throughout: "They want Harry/Where is 
Harry?/Give them Harry/They want Harry/H. A. Double R. Y./They're All 
His/He's Their kind of a guy/And ooh what luck/'Cause here he is."

Of course, if Slash turns you on, the spoken bit in the original 
show, cut from the movie, gets back in (with just a couple of words 
changed):  "Maybe you think I'm talking about physical love. Well, 
I'm not. Not JUST physical love. There's other kinds of love. Like 
love of...potions. Love of... spying. Love of lending a hand to 
someone who really needs you. Love of your fellow man. Those kinds of 
love are what I'm talkin' about. And physical love ain't so bad 
either."

"We Both Reached For The Gun": completely different setting from the 
movie, and no ventriloquist dummy. In the Shrieking Shack, Black and 
Pettigrew explain what happened on the night of the attack on the 
Potters, culminating in their duel: "We both reached for our wands".

"Roxie": GoF, Ch. 16: Harry & Ron duet as they think about entering 
the Triwizard Tournament. Alternating verses, with "The name on 
everybody's lips is gonna be Harry / Weasley". The finale is in 
unison (with chorus), ending on  "Everyone else billed below/Harry 
[Ron interjects: 'Ron']".

"I Can't Do It Alone": I'm not sure what to do with this one, but the 
line "My sister is now/Unfortunately deceased" jumps out at me and 
I'm trying to shoe in Petunia and Vernon ranting about Lily and "that 
Potter" in the Hut-On-The-Rock in PS/SS.

"Mister Cellophane": GoF: Ron during the Rift, sings of having 
nothing but the worst of everything, and now even his best friend has 
deserted him, and sees himself as "Mister Second-rate" 
(alternatively, inspired by the recent filk featuring Snape, "Mister 
Spellotape", that title works as well, as a reference to Ron's 
Spellotaped wand in CoS and his Spellotaped books). (Both Jealous!Ron 
and Betrayed!Ron are acceptable) :-)

(BTW for those who aren't aware of this, and in view of the various 
admissions in another thread of things folk didn't know, I don't feel 
out of place saying this, Sellotape (TM) is the real-world UK 
equivalent of Scotch Tape (TM) in the USA; "to Sellotape" also exists 
as a colloquial verb - http://www.sellotape.co.uk/index2.html.)

"Razzle Dazzle": Scene not in canon as Crouch Jr first transforms 
into Mad-Eye Moody and summarises the plan to grab Harry with manic 
glee. (This is what inspired me to think of Chicago-as-Potter. It 
wasn't the song, it was the image of a nifty tap dance with a wooden 
leg). :-)

"Class": CoS, Ch. 4: Draco and Lucius in Burgin & Burkes decry what's 
happening to wizarding society.

"Nowadays": Hermione, during the boys-looking-for-dates sequence in 
GoF, thinks about which boy she wants to take her to the Ball. 
(inspired by the line: "You can even marry Harry/But mess about with 
Ike"). H/H, H/R and H/Krum ships all allowed. :-)

Please feel free to be inspired or disgusted by the above ideas. I 
won't feel offended either way!

-- 
GulPlum AKA Richard who would like to admit that he'd never heard 
of "Mr Rogers" (viz. another thread) and needed to look at some US-
based news sites to find out about him. Then again, US residents 
wouldn't know who Valerie Singleton is (and nor would most Brits 
younger than mid-30s)... ;-)




From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk  Thu Feb 27 20:44:31 2003
From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte)
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 20:44:31 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Chicago/Mr Rogers/Blue Peter
References: <b3ls5m+mv9h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3E5E78AF.000001.74709@monica>

 
 -- 
GulPlum AKA Richard who would like to admit that he'd never heard 
of "Mr Rogers" (viz. another thread) and needed to look at some US-
based news sites to find out about him. Then again, US residents 
wouldn't know who Valerie Singleton is (and nor would most Brits 
younger than mid-30s)... ;-)
 
 I would very much like to second the first part of that sentiment since my
reaction has pretty much been - who? all day. But I would also like to point
out that I may not have grown up with Valerie Singleton (being nearly ten
years younger than your suggested age limit) but I know exactly who she is
thank you - and I'm sure most Brits would. I'm more the Sarah Green/Simon
Groom era :)

Also I've been fairly inspired by Chicago recently but in the buffyverse - I
have this deep desire to have someone let Anya (the ex-vengeance demon) hear
a version of cell-Block Tango.

Also while I loved the performances of Renee Zellweger & Catherine
Zeta-Jones am I alone in thinking that the woman with the most sex appeal
(and admittedly I'm coming at this from the pov of a straight woman) in the
whole thing was actually Queen Latifah? Everytime I see Renee as Roxie I
have the urge to hold her down and feed her!

K



From joym999 at aol.com  Thu Feb 27 21:13:20 2003
From: joym999 at aol.com (joywitch_m_curmudgeon <joym999@aol.com>)
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 21:13:20 -0000
Subject: Fun with Spelling and Grammar
In-Reply-To: <b3fg6a+g5r5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b3lv1g+817t@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Mary Ann <macloudt at y...>" 
> To be honest some of my friends think I'm a complete spelling and 
> grammar snob.  However, when they're writing something official and 
> need it proofread, who do they run to?  Yep, me.  Talk about fair-
> weather friends. ;)

You too, Mary Ann?  That happens to me a lot -- they snicker, call me 
compulsive, and always seem to have something that they are sure "I'd 
just love to read." 

> However I do think that spelling and grammar are gifts.  I've 
always 
> been good at spelling and phonics.  I can look at a sentence and 
know 
> whether or not it's grammatically correct.  I may not know *why*, 
but 
> I know it's wrong.  On the other hand my husband, who is 
intelligent 
> and reads an awful lot of historical non-fiction, has been known to 
> spell his own mother's name wrong.  

I think that's true.  Some of it has to do with the way different 
people process information, IMO.  I tend to have a visual memory, so 
if something is spelled wrong, it simply doesn't *look* right to me.  
According to stuff I've read, other people remember information by 
other means, such as its "sound" or "feeling," so may have a harder 
time remembering how to spell.

But the biggest problem, IMO, with bad spelling and grammar, is 
simply that it makes it difficult, or even impossible, to 
communicate.  I recently joined a Yahoo group for a computer game I 
like to play, and at first I thought I had stumbled into a foreign 
group who was speaking a language I wasn't quite familiar with.  
After determining that I was not actually in the Serbo-Croatian or 
Irdu-speaking game fans group, I tried in vain to understand what 
people in the group were saying, but it was just impossible.  The 
posts were so poorly written -- full of words that weren't words and 
nothing resembling punctuation or paragraphs or even sentences -- 
that I could only understand maybe one out of every ten.  I don't 
quite get why it doesn't bother the people in that group that they 
can't understand each other, but there you have it.

I think that the poor writing skills of many, if not most, Americans 
is a very serious problem.  I have had several jobs in which I was 
responsible for hiring, and as a result I have read hundreds of 
poorly-written resumes and cover letters.  In fact, I would say that 
most of the cover letters I've read, even from college graduates 
responding to ads for writers or researchers, were so poorly written 
that I wouldn't even consider calling them.  It's depressing.

--Joywitch, who compulsively proofreads even her shopping lists




From plumeski at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 27 21:23:54 2003
From: plumeski at yahoo.com (GulPlum <plumeski@yahoo.com>)
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 21:23:54 -0000
Subject: Chicago/Blue Peter
In-Reply-To: <3E5E78AF.000001.74709@monica>
Message-ID: <b3lvla+n267@eGroups.com>

Kathryn Cawte wrote:

<snip>

> But I would also like to point
> out that I may not have grown up with Valerie Singleton (being 
> nearly ten years younger than your suggested age limit) but I know 
> exactly who she is thank you - and I'm sure most Brits would. I'm 
> more the Sarah Green/Simon Groom era :)

I suppose the fact that "our Val" went on to do "grown-up" TV and 
radio means that she's stayed in the public eye and probably can't 
avoid references to her Blue Peter past. :-)

(as for the Sarah Greene/Simon Groom era, I was abroad through most 
of that so whilst I know the names, I can't for the sake of me 
picture what they look like without prompting. <does quick Google> 
Aha! I remember now!)  :-)

> Also while I loved the performances of Renee Zellweger & Catherine
> Zeta-Jones am I alone in thinking that the woman with the most sex
> appeal (and admittedly I'm coming at this from the pov of a 
> straight woman) in the whole thing was actually Queen Latifah? 
> Everytime I see Renee as Roxie I have the urge to hold her down and 
> feed her!

As a straight male, am I alone in thinking that Renee is singularly 
unsexy? Especially her face. It looks like she's got some kind of 
infection which has blown up her skin, and her head appears 
completely out of proportion to her body, which as you say, looks 
like it needs feeding. BTW I certainly wouldn't say the same about CZ-
T. :-)

As for Queen Latifah, I have never been one for, how can I put this 
kindly, "busty" ladies, but she certainly knows how to use what she's 
got! (I think it's an Oedipal complex in reverse - to describe my mum 
when she was in her prime [she's almost 78 now] as "busty" would have 
been something of an understatement.) :-) 





From joym999 at aol.com  Thu Feb 27 22:20:08 2003
From: joym999 at aol.com (joywitch_m_curmudgeon <joym999@aol.com>)
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 22:20:08 -0000
Subject: Not a wonderful day in the neighborhood.
Message-ID: <b3m2uo+j6e8@eGroups.com>

As a tribute to the late Fred Rogers, here's a selection of quotes: 

"People say to my wife, `What's he like?' What you see is what you 
get. It's just who I happen to be." 

"I feel the greatest gift we can give to anybody is the gift of our 
honest self." 

"Of course, I get angry. Of course, I get sad. I have a full range of 
emotions. I also have a whole smorgasbord of ways of dealing with my 
feelings. That is what we should give children. Give them ... ways to 
express their rage without hurting themselves or somebody else. 
That's what the world needs." 

"I have really never considered myself a TV star. I always thought I 
was a neighbor who just came in for a visit." 

"You know, you don't have to look like everybody else to be 
acceptable and to feel acceptable." 

"I have a very modulated way of dealing with my anger. I have always 
tried to understand the other person and invariably I've discovered 
that somebody who rubs you the wrong way has been rubbed the wrong 
way many times." 

"We live in a world in which we need to share responsibility. It's 
easy to say 'It's not my child, not my community, not my world, not 
my problem.' Then there are those who see the need and respond. I 
consider those people my heroes." 

"There's a generous current in the American spirit. And if we can 
simply give voice to that once in a while, I think it's a good 
message." 

--Joywitch M. Curmudgeon, who has an un-curmudgeonly affection for 
Mister R.




From sevothtarte at gmx.net  Thu Feb 27 22:45:19 2003
From: sevothtarte at gmx.net (Torsten)
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 23:45:19 +0100
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Chicago/Mr Rogers/Blue Peter
In-Reply-To: <3E5E78AF.000001.74709@monica>
Message-ID: <QQMKIUKIGBAFD1VSRSO4X75XWB00.3e5e94ff@tk>

K wrote:
>GulPlum AKA Richard who would like to admit that he'd never heard 
>of "Mr Rogers" (viz. another thread) and needed to look at some US-
>based news sites to find out about him. Then again, US residents 
>wouldn't know who Valerie Singleton is (and nor would most Brits 
>younger than mid-30s)... ;-)

*shy request* Will someone tell me who both Mr Rogers and Valerie Singleton are? 
*_*

-Torsten






From plumeski at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 27 23:22:12 2003
From: plumeski at yahoo.com (GulPlum <plumeski@yahoo.com>)
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 23:22:12 -0000
Subject: Chicago/Mr Rogers/Blue Peter
In-Reply-To: <QQMKIUKIGBAFD1VSRSO4X75XWB00.3e5e94ff@tk>
Message-ID: <b3m6j4+3lkm@eGroups.com>

Torsten wrote:

<snip>

> *shy request* Will someone tell me who both Mr Rogers and Valerie 
> Singleton are? 

"Mr Rogers" is (or rather, was, considering he died this morning), as 
I have found out today, a major figure in children's TV in North 
America (just for a change, that actually means USA + Canada, rather 
than just one of them). I found out a lot of stuff on the CNN website 
(www.cnn.com) including separate articles on him as a person, TV 
personality and about the history of his TV show. I'm sure that the 
Americans around here might have some better links to propose, but I 
found the CNN site told me as much as I needed to know to get a feel 
for what he was like, and what he and his show represented.

Although I'd never heard of him until a few hours ago, it seems like 
the term "good person" has rarely been more deserved, and I can 
understand why several generations of North Americans are so sad 
today. My condolences to you all.

Changing tack completely, Valerie Singleton was one of the presenters 
of the BBC kids' magazine show "Blue Peter" (hence the subject title) 
which has been running for years and years. Just as a generation of 
North Americans cannot imagine their childhoods without Mr. Rogers, I 
for one cannot imagine mine without "Val" (who did Blue Peter between 
1962 and 1972, but has done a few special appearances on the show 
since then). 

Certainly for my generation, Val was our second mother on the TV - if 
she said something, we *knew* it was true,and we *knew* she had our 
best interests at heart. (I've had the pleasure of meeting her at a 
couple of informal social functions; she really is a very nice person 
and anyone who's worked with her seems to think so too.)

The difference between Val and Mr. Rogers is that she started in TV 
as a "proper" journalist and fell into kids' TV as an accident. After 
Blue Peter, she returned to journalism (though still for the BBC), 
has since presented all kinds of factual programmes on BBC TV and 
Radio, and does a HUGE amount of charity work, especially in 
connection with kids. She was given an OBE (one of the highest 
Britich civilian honours) a few years ago, as I notice Mr. Rogers was 
given a Presidential Honour as well. 

It's because I get the impression that North Americans have the same 
kind of feeling for Mr. Rogers that I and my generation have for 
Valerie Singleton that I chose to use her as an example. I certainly 
know how I'll feel the day we lose Val (which I hope is a long way 
away), regardless of whether she's still in the public eye.


 




From Malady579 at hotmail.com  Fri Feb 28 00:31:19 2003
From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody <Malady579@hotmail.com>)
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 00:31:19 -0000
Subject: Mister Rogers
In-Reply-To: <b3m6j4+3lkm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b3makn+2e8k@eGroups.com>

Torsten asked:
> > *shy request* Will someone tell me who both Mr Rogers and Valerie
> > Singleton are?


GulPlum wrote:
>"Mr Rogers" is (or rather, was, considering he died this morning), as
>I have found out today, a major figure in children's TV in North
>America.


As one of my friends told me recently...

You could say that.  You could also say the sky is blue.

You see.  Mister Rogers was a dear, dear man.  He was an honest,
sensitive man.  *Always.*  There is no "behind the scenes" scandalous
special on his life.  He was just and always Mister Rogers.  A few
years ago, he received a special Grammy, and on the show, it was so
amazing that he was in real life as he was portrayed in the show.  We
are so use to people on television "acting" that is was so refreshing
and almost encouraging that Mister Rogers was in fact Mister Rogers.
He was precisely what we always thought him to be as a kid.  So few
perceptions in childhood hold true.  Mister Rogers is one of those.

He was so tender and gentle on his show.  He would walk to his house
every day and come in at the precise time singing "It's a beautiful
day in the neighborhood.  A beautiful day in the neighborhood.  Would
you be mine?  Won't you be mine?"  While he did he would change out of
his adult "work" jacket and slip on leather shoes and into comfortable
"play" cardigan sweater and softer lace up shoes.  He was not trendy
or tricked up.  He was just the type of man that could kind of be your
grandfather.

He would then continue to talk ever so calmly to you.  All while doing
boring normal things like make bread or create a wooden box.  He would
*always* remember to feed his fish.  Mr. McFeely would come with the
mail and fun packages.

Sometimes Mr. Rogers would take us to trips to the music store to
learn new instruments.  It was the first time I ever saw a "saw"
played with a violin bow.  He would also go to the "local" school to
show us that there is nothing to fear about kindergarten and the
school bus drivers are friendly.  He would show how to buckle
shoes...and oh, oh, he had this one video where he showed about how
crayons are made.  Now I was so sure that *that* was the coolest thing
I had ever seen.  Zillions of little red and blue and yellow crayons
zooming around in conveyor belts.  I do so love to color you know.

And then there was the land of make believe.  Mister Rogers would turn
on this trolley he had in his house that went off to the land of make
believe like a toy train someone would have set up in their house.
Sometimes he had these models he would "fade" from one land to the
other.  It was always set up as a shift from reality.

It took me until I was a teenager to learn he was the one that was the
voice for most of the puppets there.  It was a sort of walk-in puppet
theater with a castle, big tree, merry go round, platypus mound thing,
and a clock where the shy tiger Daniel lived.  Daniel was my favorite.
 Though sometimes when I was a kid I thought he needed to get a
backbone more, but he meant well.  Thinking back on it now, I cannot
remember what the puppet plots were, but each puppet always had their
own distinct personalities and goals, and I always looked forward to
the land of make believe.

Really, to me, Mister Rogers was a show and a man I watched as a kid
that was kind of basic and simple.  I don't really know why he was so
enchanting to me and my brother.  We just laid there in the middle of
the living room floor with our heads sharing the same pillow watching
the show over and over.

Rest in peace Mister Rogers.


Melody





From trinity61us at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 28 00:15:33 2003
From: trinity61us at yahoo.com (alex fox)
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 16:15:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Waaaaaaaaaah!
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030227095436.00d15100@mail.societyhappens.com>
Message-ID: <20030228001533.13102.qmail@web14908.mail.yahoo.com>

I can't believe this! Just yesterday, I was flipping through channles, and landed on Mr Rogers Neighborhood and watched the whole thing. I thought to myself "He looks so frail! I can't imagine what it would be like to not have him here!."  Now I know. It's a much lonelier planet. We miss you, Fred.
          Alex, crying in front of the computer screen 
                       
 Sushi <sushi at societyhappens.com> wrote:At 02:08 PM 2/27/03 +0000, you wrote:
>Mr. Rogers died!
>
>Very sad,
>Amy Z

         This is a sad, sad day in the Land of Make Believe. =(

Sushi






From siskiou at earthlink.net  Fri Feb 28 00:51:31 2003
From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne)
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 16:51:31 -0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Mister Rogers
In-Reply-To: <b3makn+2e8k@eGroups.com>
References: <b3makn+2e8k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <14630581957.20030227165131@earthlink.net>



Hi,

Thursday, February 27, 2003, 4:31:19 PM, Malady579 at hotmail.com wrote:

>  I don't really know why he was so
> enchanting to me and my brother.  We just laid there in the middle of
> the living room floor with our heads sharing the same pillow watching
> the show over and over.

> Rest in peace Mister Rogers.

I'm from Germany and when I moved to the US, I never really
got used to the constant commercials, and every show needing
a climax just before the commercial break to keep viewers
from losing interest and switching to another channel.

When our daughter was old enough to get interested in
watching TV, we were so glad to find OPB and Mr. Rogers.

There was no hyperactivity or flashing pictures, just an
honest person telling you about life and how to deal with
it.
He was someone you could always rely on, in a way.

I substituted in my daughter's school today and even the
5th graders, who are quite rambunctious, talked about how
sad they were to hear about Mr. Roger's death, even though
they'd normally make fun of it as a "baby" show.

-- 
Best regards,
 Susanne                           mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net




From meboriqua at aol.com  Fri Feb 28 01:07:38 2003
From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw <meboriqua@aol.com>)
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 01:07:38 -0000
Subject: Fun with Spelling and Grammar
In-Reply-To: <b3lv1g+817t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b3mcoq+kf9h@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "joywitch_m_curmudgeon 
<joym999 at a...>" <joym999 at a...> wrote:
 
> I think that the poor writing skills of many, if not most, Americans 
> is a very serious problem.  I have had several jobs in which I was 
> responsible for hiring, and as a result I have read hundreds of 
> poorly-written resumes and cover letters.  In fact, I would say that 
> most of the cover letters I've read, even from college graduates 
> responding to ads for writers or researchers, were so poorly written 
> that I wouldn't even consider calling them.  It's depressing.
> 
> --Joywitch, who compulsively proofreads even her shopping lists>

I am with you on this one!  High school teacher that I am, there are 
times when I truly want to tear my hair out while reading what my 
students think passes as English.  I adore my students but am truly 
boggled by the fact that they don't care that they are nearly 
illiterate and make the same mistakes over and over and over and over 
again.

I have seen grammatical errors on the news ('recieve'), on numerous 
signs and menus, in books and even in a letter of recommendation 
written for me by a professor of mine from graduate school.  You can 
bet I made him correct it!  

My number one pet peeve grammatical error (and I see it ad nauseum at 
the main list) is this: the Dursley's, Weasley's, Hogwart's.  Who the 
hell taught people all over this country how *not* to use apostrophes 
correctly?

--jenny from ravenclaw, afraid I've made a mistake here and who also 
proof reads grocery lists ****************************




From rvotaw at i-55.com  Fri Feb 28 01:36:10 2003
From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw)
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 19:36:10 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Mr Rogers
References: <b3m6j4+3lkm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <006f01c2dec9$c5fe8620$bfa2cdd1@RVotaw>

GulPlum wrote:

> Although I'd never heard of him until a few hours ago, it seems like 
> the term "good person" has rarely been more deserved, and I can 
> understand why several generations of North Americans are so sad 
> today. My condolences to you all.

Ironically, I was just talking about Mr. Rogers last week. (Seeing as I have no small children of my own, he's not normally one of my topics of conversation.)  I remember on the show Candid Camera (do they have this outside the U.S.?  If not, it's a show where they hide cameras and do normally ridiculous things to see people's response.)  Anyway, they had taken the TV's out of hotel rooms and posed as a bellboy to explain to people that the TV was broken and they'd try to get one to them as soon as possible. Most people were furious, couldn't stand the thought of a few hours without a TV.  But one of the hotel guests just happened to be Mr. Rogers, who was in town for a convention of some sort.  His response?  "Oh, that's all right, I don't need one.  I don't watch TV."  Needless to say, they were shocked. :)

Richelle


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 28 01:55:19 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve <bboy_mn@yahoo.com>)
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 01:55:19 -0000
Subject: Reading, Writing, and Multiple Choice
Message-ID: <b3mfi7+q66u@eGroups.com>

Since we are on the subject of reading, writing, and grammar, let me
add an additional thought. I know we have some teacher here and I
would be especially interested in their comments.

We live in the age of 'multiple choice'. When was the last time any
kid actually had to write anything? One of the ways to improve your
writing is to write. The more you do it, assume you are actually
interested in getting better, the better you get. 

To what extent are kids required to write in the US educational system
today?

When I was in high school, I remember most of our tests being short
essay where a sheet of typing paper might contain 4 questions with
space to leave your answers. So not only were we tested on that
particular subject, but we were also graded on spelling and grammar.

As a side note, does anyone beside me remember what a freshly
mimeographed sheet of paper smelled like? I remember teachers handing
out tests, and the first think every student did was smell the
mineograph paper. Used to drive some of the teachers nut. They would
look out over a sea of faces and see the whole class sniffing their tests.

Just a thought.

bboy_mn





From rvotaw at i-55.com  Fri Feb 28 02:12:24 2003
From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw)
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 20:12:24 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Reading, Writing, and Multiple Choice
References: <b3mfi7+q66u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00a801c2dece$d5ee03d0$bfa2cdd1@RVotaw>


bboy_mn wrote:

> We live in the age of 'multiple choice'. When was the last time any
> kid actually had to write anything? One of the ways to improve your
> writing is to write. The more you do it, assume you are actually
> interested in getting better, the better you get. 
> 
> To what extent are kids required to write in the US educational system
> today?

More all the time. In Louisiana, in order to pass fourth grade (9 and 10 year olds) students must pass the LEAP test. No multiple choice, all written response.  It is graded out of state by a team of judges.  If a student does not pass both the Reading and Math portion of the test, they are given the chance to retake the test over the summer.  If they still do not pass, they must repeat fourth grade the next year.  The same thing happens again in 8th grade.  Over the next year or two, they are planning to change the testing format for the other grades, beginning at 3rd grade, to an all written response test.

As for my first graders, a portion of their Unit test in Language is all written response.  Worth 1/3 of the total test, so without it you can't pass the Unit test.  Nice thing about written response is there is partial credit.  And they're forced to think. No such thing for multiple choice.

Richelle


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From joym999 at aol.com  Fri Feb 28 02:33:16 2003
From: joym999 at aol.com (joywitch_m_curmudgeon <joym999@aol.com>)
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 02:33:16 -0000
Subject: Fun with Spelling and Grammar
In-Reply-To: <b3mcoq+kf9h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b3mhpc+10ks3@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "jenny_ravenclaw 
<meboriqua at a...>" <meboriqua at a...> wrote:

> I have seen grammatical errors on the news ('recieve'), on numerous 
> signs and menus, ...

Which reminds me of my favorite all time spelling error, on a menu at 
a Chinese restaurant here in DC.  This restaurant serves "bean crud."

--Joywitch




From plumeski at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 28 02:47:33 2003
From: plumeski at yahoo.com (GulPlum <plumeski@yahoo.com>)
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 02:47:33 -0000
Subject: Reading, Writing, and Multiple Choice
In-Reply-To: <00a801c2dece$d5ee03d0$bfa2cdd1@RVotaw>
Message-ID: <b3mik5+9ctm@eGroups.com>

Richelle Votaw wrote:


> In Louisiana, in order to pass fourth grade (9 and 10 year olds) 
> students must pass the LEAP test. No multiple choice, all written 
> response.  It is graded out of state by a team of judges.  If a 
> student does not pass both the Reading and Math portion of the 
> test, they are given the chance to retake the test over the 
> summer.  If they still do not pass, they must repeat fourth grade 
> the next year.  The same thing happens again in 8th grade.  Over 
> the next year or two, they are planning to change the testing 
> format for the other grades, beginning at 3rd grade, to an all 
> written response test.
> 
> As for my first graders, a portion of their Unit test in Language
> is all written response.  Worth 1/3 of the total test, so without 
> it you can't pass the Unit test.  Nice thing about written response 
> is there is partial credit.  And they're forced to think. No such 
> thing for multiple choice.

*Phew*. I'd actually written a lengthy rant after I read Steve's 
message but decided that it was just a little to strident and 
scrapped it. What you say has thankfully restored my faith in some 
kind of sanity in the US educational system. 

One thing you mention, though, sends me off on an anti-British 
education rant for a change.

Specifically, the fact that (like at Hogwarts), if the kids don't 
pass a basic skills test (even upon re-testing), they must repeat the 
year. This is a concept which I find not only sensible, but utterly 
obvious. The entire English education system is predicated on the 
notion that kids born in the same year are all taught together. Our 
system includes the notion of "streaming", whereby "more capable" 
pupils are kept with others of the same level, and "less capable" 
ones are also kept together. English kids are also among the most-
tested schoolkids in the world. 

The problem is that these tests aren't for the purpose of evaluating 
the kids' progress, but the school's. If the child's progress isn't 
up to scratch, then as long as it fits on a statistical curve across 
the whole school, it's fine. Whether or not the child is gaining 
anything from school is irrelevant. 

It filled me with ire when I read last autumn that one in seven 
English school-leavers (aged 16) are functionally illiterate. What I 
want to know is, if they couldn't read, write and count fluently by 
the time they were 11, why were they not given remedial assistance at 
that point? (Like Hogwarts, 11 is the age at which kids change 
schools and start more extensive and detailed study).

What on earth is the point in sending a boy (they're usually boys...) 
who cannot read or write to a school where they're going to start 
talking about Shakespeare and poetry, or algebra and calculus? Such a 
child is not only gaining absolutely *nothing* from being at school, 
but is also a drain on resources and a highly likely troublemaker. 
Get that child to repeat a year and learn the 3 Rs properly, and he 
has an increased chance of becoming a productive and co-operative 
student. 

God, NOTHING about British education makes me angrier than this 
issue, and the fact that there is absolutely ZERO political interest 
(I don't just mean political parties or the government, I mean anyone 
in a position to influence any change at any level) in introducing 
the alternative system which exists in almost every school in almost 
every other advanced country means that absolutely NOBODY is even 
considering it. The politicians, the teachers and the educational 
establishment are forever tinkering at the fringes of the system in 
order to make it "work" better, but it's only making matters worse 
for everyone, not better. Introduce the concept of "fail the test, 
repeat the year" and sure, it becomes a little more expensive in the 
short run, and it causes a few red-faced pupils around the country, 
but it would give everyone the kick up the backside that we all need 
to realise that we are all failing our children!

Rant over. Sorry, I just *had* to get that out of my system.






From plumeski at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 28 02:49:58 2003
From: plumeski at yahoo.com (GulPlum <plumeski@yahoo.com>)
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 02:49:58 -0000
Subject: Fun with Spelling and Grammar
In-Reply-To: <b3mhpc+10ks3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b3miom+5j5v@eGroups.com>

Regarding favourite spelling errors (specifically in restaurants, 
etc), it seems to me that some people around here need to be pointed 
in the direction of 

http://www.engrish.com/

Have fun. :-)







From the.gremlin at verizon.net  Fri Feb 28 04:02:59 2003
From: the.gremlin at verizon.net (the.gremlin at verizon.net)
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 22:02:59 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Waaaaaaaaaah!
Message-ID: <20030228040259.JEMG5518.out001.verizon.net@[127.0.0.1]>

"JenP, who specifically remembers the episode where he found that one of his fish had died and spent the whole episode talking about death and then buried it."

I remember that episode too! I found out at work, and when I told everybody they said "Who's Mr. Rogers?" Well, I *am* the youngest employee...but I've spent all day reading articles about him. He was such a good person! 

I will honestly say that I thought he had died a year ago I'm sorry!) but actually knowing that he died today was very saddenning. I watched a Mr. Rogers episode a couple of weeks ago...my mother hated that show because I used to watch it all the time.

Sushi:
"This is a sad, sad day in the Land of Make Believe. =("

Someone on my campus said the he's still with us, in the Land of Make Believe: "We can visit him in the Land of Make Believe. I think I hear the trolley coming now..." (her name is Kimberley, to properly attribute the quote). 

-Acire, who...doesn't know what to say.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From gabolamx at yahoo.com.mx  Fri Feb 28 04:14:15 2003
From: gabolamx at yahoo.com.mx (Gabriela <gabolamx@yahoo.com.mx>)
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 04:14:15 -0000
Subject: Reading, Writing, and Multiple Choice
In-Reply-To: <b3mfi7+q66u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b3mnmn+8hmp@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Steve <bboy_mn at y...>" 
<bboy_mn at y...> wrote:
> As a side note, does anyone beside me remember what a freshly
> mimeographed sheet of paper smelled like? I remember teachers 
handing
> out tests, and the first think every student did was smell the
> mineograph paper. Used to drive some of the teachers nut. They would
> look out over a sea of faces and see the whole class sniffing their 
tests.
> 
> Just a thought.
> 
> bboy_mn

Steve, you really made me laugh with that one. I used to love the 
smell of those papers, especially when they were a little "wrinkled". 
After reading your post I talked about those good old times with my 
sister who is three years younger than me and still remembers that 
smell.

Gabriela
(who apologizes in advance for any spelling and/or grammar mistakes)




From gabolamx at yahoo.com.mx  Fri Feb 28 04:23:32 2003
From: gabolamx at yahoo.com.mx (Gabriela <gabolamx@yahoo.com.mx>)
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 04:23:32 -0000
Subject: Reading, Writing, and Multiple Choice
In-Reply-To: <b3mik5+9ctm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b3mo84+dp71@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "GulPlum <plumeski at y...>" 
<plumeski at y...> wrote:
The entire English education system is predicated on the 
> notion that kids born in the same year are all taught together. Our 
> system includes the notion of "streaming", whereby "more capable" 
> pupils are kept with others of the same level, and "less capable" 
> ones are also kept together. English kids are also among the most-
> tested schoolkids in the world. 
> 
> The problem is that these tests aren't for the purpose of 
evaluating 
> the kids' progress, but the school's. If the child's progress isn't 
> up to scratch, then as long as it fits on a statistical curve 
across 
> the whole school, it's fine. Whether or not the child is gaining 
> anything from school is irrelevant. 


Sadly, all that you wrote seems to be happening here in Mexico. I am 
a third grade teacher, and I can say that at least two of my students 
can't read well, let alone write. And what will happen to these 
students? They will pass to fourth grade not knowing how to read 
and/or write properly because of school policies. By the way, I work 
at a private school. It is frustrating.

Gabriela





From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 28 04:44:30 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve <bboy_mn@yahoo.com>)
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 04:44:30 -0000
Subject: Reading, Writing, and Multiple Choice
In-Reply-To: <00a801c2dece$d5ee03d0$bfa2cdd1@RVotaw>
Message-ID: <b3mpfe+tqut@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Richelle Votaw" <rvotaw at i...>
wrote:
> 
> bboy_mn wrote:
> 
> > We live in the age of 'multiple choice'. When was the last time 
> > any kid actually had to write anything? One of the ways to improve
> > your writing is to write. The more you do it, assume you are 
> > actually interested in getting better, the better you get. 
> > 
> > To what extent are kids required to write in the US educational
> > system today?
> 
> More all the time. In Louisiana, in order to pass fourth grade (9
and 10 year olds) students must pass the LEAP test. No multiple
choice, all written response.  ...
>
> ...edited...
> 
> Richelle


bboy_mn:

GulPlum took the words right out of my mouth. Reading this restores my
faith in the US educational system, and of all places Louisiana. 

Sorry about the Louisiana remark, but Louisiana doesn't carry the
stereotype of being the most sophisticated place in the US. Generally,
and again with apologies, the stereotype of someone from Louisiana is
an uneducated swamp dwelling moonshine making cousin marrying... ah...
I want to say hillbillie but their aren't any hills. Spend a few
months in Fort Polk, LA; all red sand and trees. 

However, what you said makes it sound, more accurately I'm sure, like
a very progressive state with an equally progressive, productive, and
  effective educational system. You must have some very cooperative
politicians in your state. 

Minnesota, while it has adopted some standards, constantly runs into
the worhtless, in my opinion, argument that if you have mandatory
testing then the teachers will teach the test. The other argument is
that it will stifle creative teachers and progressive schools. I don't
buy either one of those arguments myself. Luckly, in general,
Minnesota has a high standard of education.

Anyway, the way your school is doing it makes perfect sense. It's
simple and straight forward, and it deals with the actual problem
rather than the symptoms. Plus, it doesn't seem to have been modified
to pacify various special interests. I think, with the limited
knowledge I have, that it could easily serve as a model for the whole
country. 

Anyway, thanks for responding, and it truly was a relief to know that
someone out there actually got it right.

Now I will end with one final apology for re-enforcing southern
stereotypes. Stereotypes that couldn't possibly be more wrong. Hope I
didn't go to far.

with respect,

bboy_mn











From urbana at charter.net  Fri Feb 28 05:11:33 2003
From: urbana at charter.net (Anne <urbana@charter.net>)
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 05:11:33 -0000
Subject: Reading, Writing, and Multiple Choice
In-Reply-To: <b3mfi7+q66u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b3mr25+je71@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Steve <bboy_mn at y...>" 
<bboy_mn at y...> wrote:
> When I was in high school, I remember most of our tests being short
> essay where a sheet of typing paper might contain 4 questions with
> space to leave your answers. So not only were we tested on that
> particular subject, but we were also graded on spelling and grammar.

I honestly can't remember what our tests (especially English tests) 
were like in high school (especially since I attended high school 
back when dinosaurs still roamed the earth...). However, I DO 
remember the daily *grind* of my 10th grade English class. 
Essentially we spent the entire 9 months studying Shakespeare. We 
probably spent a month or two on the sonnets, and the rest of the 
time we studied several of the major plays - at a pace of one play 
per month. Every night we were sent home with essentially the same 
assignment: "Write 250 (or maybe it was 500) words about the scene we 
read today." I can recall wailing and gnashing my teeth about these 
nightly themes and receiving numerous "C"s as daily grades. However, 
on the test at the end of each month I managed to get mostly "A"s. So 
all that nightly hard work must have paid off, because apparently I 
*was* able to string a few consecutive thoughts together well enough 
to suit our fairly strict teacher. I recall my classmates and I being 
very upset with our teacher's "unfairness" during the year... and 
then crying at the end of the year when we discovered she would not 
be teaching us again the next year. 

So, years later, this quote reminded me of Sister Francine and our 
10th grade English class:

"Writing is easy ... you just open a vein." (Red Smith, American 
sports writer, who died c. 1993)

Anne U
(thank you, Sister Francine, wherever you are)





From skelkins at attbi.com  Fri Feb 28 07:03:36 2003
From: skelkins at attbi.com (ssk7882 <skelkins@attbi.com>)
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 07:03:36 -0000
Subject: Earliest Memories of the World Outside (was Forcing Kids To Watch History Made)
In-Reply-To: <94971TSUPKMHWQ942YSQTP21C4XD0.3e5d226a@tk>
Message-ID: <b3n1k8+a8ov@eGroups.com>

Eileen wrote:
> Only one thing for sure. I was never anything but a model student 
> through school because of the cameras. . . . Of course, once I 
> discovered that the cameras didn't exist, I was too stuck in my 
> ways to start thumbing my nose at the authorities. 

Torsten wrote:
> Interesting. My cameras didn't stop me from doing anything, they 
> only made me feel double ashamed afterwards if I did something 
> 'wrong' ...

Heh.  What *my* cameras did was to cause me to tell small lies to my 
parents about insignificant things from time to time -- just to see 
if I could trick them into giving themselves away.  I'd say that I'd 
spent the afternoon playing with my toy dinosaurs, for example, when 
I'd actually been reading a book.  And then I'd scrutinize their 
faces, to see if they would betray themselves with any signs of 
surprise or disbelief.

It was, of course, a most unwise strategy.  All that I was really
accomplishing was teaching *them* how to recognize *my* tells.  But 
hey.  How much strategic brilliance can any little kid really be 
expected to have?

Eileen:
> But then, as you suggested, perhaps I dreamed the cameras up 
> because I have a rule-abiding personality. 

Actually, you know, I eventually concluded that I had dreamed mine up 
because I have just the reverse?

In fact, even though as it turned out I was right about the cameras, 
I *still* think that I probably predicted them because I have a 
somewhat oppositional personality.  Or perhaps just a profoundly 
egocentric one.  Or perhaps just because I really was slightly mad as
a child.

Fortunately, not all of my childhood delusions proved true.  There 
was a smooth roundish boulder in the woods near the house that I used 
to believe was Evil.  It was some glacial relic, much paler than all 
of the other various rocks and outcroppings that littered that part 
of the woods, and it had an indentation just the right shape to serve 
as a kind of a seat; in dim lighting, it seemed to gleam.  It scared 
me.  I called it "The Throne of the Bone" and believed that it was 
the ancient chair of some malign spirit.  I was absolutely convinced 
that it was trying to lure me into sitting down on it, but that if I 
ever once succumbed, it would be able to possess me and control my 
mind.

Naturally, that one was just plain silly.  

Still.  I never actually *did* sit down on that rock, did I?

Torsten sniffed to the Catlady:
> Yeah, that's right. Laughing about poor kids growing up in a Big 
> Brother world. *sniff* To teach how it's like I installed some 
> cameras in your house, and no, they're not behind the sprinklers.

Psssst!  Catlady!

<looks both ways, lowers voice>

Check the smoke detector. 

Oh, and hey, Torsten, cut me into the feed, will you?  I want to see
all the kitties.

Ah, cameras...  You know, I had a co-worker several years back who 
fully believed that the television manufacturers place cameras in all 
their television sets to monitor the spending habits of consumers?

Seriously.  She really, truly believed this.  Absolutely nothing that 
I could say could dissuade her of the notion.  Nothing.  It used to 
drive me nuts.

"That's an urban myth," I told her.  

She didn't believe me.

"I'm pretty sure it's even in one of whatshisname's books.  You 
know.  That urban myth guy?"

She didn't care.

"Look!" I said.  "Look!  See here?  It *is.*  It's a recognized urban 
myth.  Been around since the 70s, it seems."

She still believed it.

"It wouldn't even be a cost-effective way to *come* by that 
information," I said.  "Just think of how much it would *cost!*  
What kind of *technology* are they supposed to be using to do this, 
anyway?  You're suggesting that these cameras require...well, no wire 
feeds, right?  And they still work, no matter how many times you move 
your TV around?  They just keep on beaming signal back to Paranoia 
Headquarters?  I mean, think about it, will you?"

She wasn't impressed.

"And who would be *monitoring* all that stuff, anyway?" I demanded.  
"You think there are entire *offices* full of employees doing this, 
perhaps?  Buildings full of people watching other people watch TV?"

She shrugged.

"Can you even *imagine* how many people that would employ?" I asked 
her.  "Can you honestly believe that if that were really true, then 
not one of them would have spilled the beans by now?  That this has 
been going on for years, without anyone breaking silence?  That every 
last one of these employees of the Television Police are adhering to 
*confidentiality agreements* or something?  How much do you think 
they could possibly be *paying* those guys, anyway?"

She was not swayed.

"Can't you even see that this doesn't make any SENSE?" I said. "It
just doesn't fit together.  How can you--"

"Why are you getting so upset over this?" she asked me.

"I AM NOT ***UPSET***!" I screamed.



Elkins, who never cared much for TV anyway





From sevothtarte at gmx.net  Fri Feb 28 07:26:24 2003
From: sevothtarte at gmx.net (Torsten)
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 08:26:24 +0100
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Reading, Writing, and Multiple Choice
In-Reply-To: <b3mfi7+q66u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <LIEDCSPGBPL76VQ1YFIC9WR4W31NM.3e5f0f20@tk>

bboy_mn wrote:
>We live in the age of 'multiple choice'. When was the last time any
>kid actually had to write anything? One of the ways to improve your
>writing is to write. The more you do it, assume you are actually
>interested in getting better, the better you get. 

When I was a pupil, I always prayed for multiple choice in my bad subjects and 
written answers in my good subjects ...

>When I was in high school, I remember most of our tests being short
>essay where a sheet of typing paper might contain 4 questions with
>space to leave your answers. So not only were we tested on that
>particular subject, but we were also graded on spelling and grammar.

Again, when I was a pupil (damn, writing this makes me feel old) our non-language 
teachers could decrease our marks if we made too many mistakes in our writing in any 
test. So if a maths or biology test required a lot of written answers and you totally 
messed your grammar and spelling up, you could get a worse mark than someone who 
had the 'facts' just as correct at you but wrote correct German, even if there was no 
problem understanding your answers despite your mistakes. Don't know if they still 
have that today, not that many teachers seemed to enforce this back in my days.
Back then we all thought this to be unfair - "It's a MATHS test after all, not 
German!" - but now I think it's a good thing, if there's consideration of special cases 
like formerly foreign pupils.

-Torsten






From sevothtarte at gmx.net  Fri Feb 28 07:13:44 2003
From: sevothtarte at gmx.net (Torsten)
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 08:13:44 +0100
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Mister Rogers
In-Reply-To: <b3makn+2e8k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <QNPNPWU72YW2UKLGICWRUQ95TRQLQN.3e5f0c28@tk>

Melody wrote:
>Rest in peace Mister Rogers.

Thanks to everybody for the explanations on Mr Rogers and Valerie Singleton. I guess 
I now understand why you're all so sad about his death. It's always sad to see 
something true go.

-Torsten






From skelkins at attbi.com  Fri Feb 28 07:30:11 2003
From: skelkins at attbi.com (ssk7882 <skelkins@attbi.com>)
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 07:30:11 -0000
Subject: Punctuation and Education and Suchnot (WAS: Ultimate Unofficial Guide)
In-Reply-To: <b3h0bf+evqc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b3n363+6bru@eGroups.com>

Gulplum asked:

> Incidentally, and I don't mean to talk down to anyone but 
> I'm curious: do American schools not teach proper use of 
> apostrophes any more? 

Yes, they do -- or at any rate, they are supposed to.  It is a part 
of the curriculum.  Our schools, however, vary a great deal in 
quality.  Just because something is on the curriculum does not mean 
that it will be taught, and just because something is "taught" does 
not mean that it will be *learned.*  The enforcement of curriculum 
standards also varies widely from community to community.

Touching on David's point, there are obviously issues of money and 
class that come into play here.  It is easy enough to deplore the 
state of some of the schools, or to insist that all students be held 
to certain minimal educational standards.  It takes more than talk to 
find the funding to make it possible.

My fellow Oregon transplant Susanne wrote:

> The measures granting money for the schools always lose, 
> for some reason :(

I'll see your frownie face, and raise you one.  :( :(  

Oregon is particularly hard that way, I'm afraid.  We have an 
unusually democratic state constitution, and an unusually libertarian 
(and tax-hating!) populace.  It's an unfortunate combination when it 
comes to public funding.

Where are you in Oregon, btw, Susanne?  There don't seem to be too 
many people from our area around here at all.  I'm in Portland.

ER taught me a new term (a Briticism, perhaps?):

> Greengrocers' apostrophes have been with us forever - "Apple's 
> 2/6 a pound".

I have never heard the expression "Greengrocers' apostrophes" before! 
I do strongly associate that use of the apostrophe with food vendors' 
signs.  

I have the same association with the (often unwittingly ironic) use 
of quotation marks the Catlady mentioned earlier.  All too often, the 
word so treated is "fresh." "Fresh" meat.  "Fresh" vegetables.    

It's not very encouraging, no.  ;-)

I think that often those quotation marks are intended to convey 
emphasis, much like *asterisks* are often used on the Net.  At other 
times, I get the impression that people are using them to indicate 
that a word or phrase feels in some sense unnatural -- formal, 
formulaic, cliche, advertising-speak.  This use of quotation marks 
often seems to me to indicate that the particular phrasing was not 
actually at all idiomatic for the *writer,* but was used anyway 
because the writer considered it the proper or "educated" or 
otherwise socially acceptable way to express the concept.  I suspect 
that the Catlady's "temporarily removed for study" might fall into 
this category.  

Then there are other times, though, when I just have no idea what the 
Mystery Quotation Marks are trying to convey.

Catlady:

> There were plenty of public displays of bad grammar and bad 
> spelling, and many signs in many shops that used apostrophe-S to 
> indicate a plural, and (*my* pet peeve) quotatation marks around 
> words that probably should not be there, such as the card in a 
> museum vitrine explaing EXHIBIT "TEMPORARILY REMOVED FOR STUDY" -- 
> whevever I see that, I say "Do they mean that the exhibit has been 
> stolen and they want to hush it up?" -- long before there was an 
> Internet or an ARPAnet, let alone a Web.

It does sound rather as if the exhibit had been stolen!  Or perhaps
as if the person who wrote the card didn't have much faith in the
diligence of the students -- although then, I suppose, it would have
been EXHIBIT TEMPORARILY REMOVED FOR "STUDY."


Elkins




From sevothtarte at gmx.net  Fri Feb 28 07:44:07 2003
From: sevothtarte at gmx.net (Torsten)
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 08:44:07 +0100
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Earliest Memories of the World Outside (was Forcing Kids To Watch History Made)
In-Reply-To: <b3n1k8+a8ov@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <VRB963VPY52WT071TLJMH5264C7UPQO.3e5f1347@tk>

Elkins wrote:
>Heh.  What *my* cameras did was to cause me to tell small lies to my 
>parents about insignificant things from time to time -- just to see 
>if I could trick them into giving themselves away.  I'd say that I'd 
>spent the afternoon playing with my toy dinosaurs, for example, when 
>I'd actually been reading a book.  And then I'd scrutinize their 
>faces, to see if they would betray themselves with any signs of 
>surprise or disbelief.

Well, since I thought my life was on TV like a soap, anyone 'happening' in my life was 
part of the soap too, a fellow victim. Friends, family, anyone passing me on the street, 
anyone I saw, they all were 'actors' too, they weren't watching, 'the others' were 
watching. So I wasn't afraid of my parents or teachers finding out about my 
wrongdoings, and I could, er, 'borrow' a friend's toy without fear of him finding out, but 
THEY had seen what I'd done and would make me feel ashamed.

*sigh* Who needs psychotherapy when you have a mailing list?

Elkins and other victims: do you too feel a dee-rooted despise for TV shows like Big 
Brother, Survivor, and the like? All kinds of 'reality TV'? I do hate them with all my 
heart. Go figure.

>Psssst!  Catlady!
>
><looks both ways, lowers voice>
>
>Check the smoke detector. 

*evil laughter* Hahahahaa, I've got EXPERIENCE with these things, I know where 
people will look for the cameras! You won't find them ever.

Incidentally, Elkins, I've got a nice close-up of you picking your nose when you 
thought nobody was looking. Want a screenshot? ^_~

-Torsten






From belleps at october.com  Fri Feb 28 07:55:29 2003
From: belleps at october.com (Beth)
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 01:55:29 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Fun With Apostrophes (LONG)
In-Reply-To: <1046351186.592.8514.m12@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20030228014637.00a1dec0@pop.cox-internet.com>

At 01:06 PM 2/27/03 +0000, Anne U wrote:
>Richard, you sound a lot like me. I'm great with written words, but
>often have a terrible time making verbal arguments or even completing
>thoughts out loud ;-) This just means (according to a theory called
>Perceptual Thinking Patterns) that you and I have a different type of
>learning pattern than your friend does. I'd go into more about this
>but it's a complicated theory - but I'm very impressed with it
>because it has helped me explain (to myself and others) a lot about
>why I NEED to write things down and DO NOT learn things merely by
>hearing them.

This reminds me of a test I took in massage therapy school. At the 
beginning of the course, they tested us to see whether we were visual, 
oral, or tactile learners, or a combination. It was more for our own use, 
so that we would know how best to study the materials. I turned out to be a 
combination of visual and tactile, which meant that studying diagrams, 
taking notes, and working with clay and models helped me immensely. 
Listening to the teacher talk just didn't make the material stick. And I'm 
much better with written communication than I am with oral. (In case you 
couldn't tell. <grin>) I have to draw maps rather than just take verbal 
directions, too. Once you've figured out your best learning mode, it really 
does help to use it.

Fascinating.  :-}

bel 




From belleps at october.com  Fri Feb 28 09:06:51 2003
From: belleps at october.com (Beth)
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 03:06:51 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Fun With Spelling and Grammar
In-Reply-To: <1046404984.3066.58565.m9@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20030228023440.00a29d30@pop.cox-internet.com>

At 04:03 AM 2/28/03 +0000, Joywitch wrote:
>But the biggest problem, IMO, with bad spelling and grammar, is
>simply that it makes it difficult, or even impossible, to
>communicate.  I recently joined a Yahoo group for a computer game I
>like to play, and at first I thought I had stumbled into a foreign
>group who was speaking a language I wasn't quite familiar with.
>After determining that I was not actually in the Serbo-Croatian or
>Irdu-speaking game fans group, I tried in vain to understand what
>people in the group were saying, but it was just impossible.  The
>posts were so poorly written -- full of words that weren't words and
>nothing resembling punctuation or paragraphs or even sentences --
>that I could only understand maybe one out of every ten.  I don't
>quite get why it doesn't bother the people in that group that they
>can't understand each other, but there you have it.

Actually, you've probably stumbled onto a completely different phenomenon. 
I work daily with computer games. When you play online games, where you can 
"talk" to other people in the game in "real-time", you learn that you have 
to type really fast to get a word in edgewise, and often to get a command 
out to your group before the next wave of enemies attacks. <grin> Because 
of this "time-critical typing", a lot of words have developed common 
abbreviations, which are understood by the online community, but not by 
anyone else outside. (Unfortunately, a lot of these "creative respellings" 
are, indeed, also due to the fact that we've been discussing -- many people 
just can't spell anymore. Sigh.) Changing the alphabet to use numbers and 
symbols for some letters is also considered "kewl" or, more commonly, 
"l33+". ("l33+" translates to "leet", which is short for "elite", and 
somehow, synonymous with cool. Go figure. <grin>)

So, the next time you're in a game group and see "i wuz so pwned, d00d. 
Crashed my toon & had to rezz. Mez, AoE, cleared a red. w00t!", just 
remember -- they're not necessarily uncaring or ignorant. They may just be 
speaking the "new language" of gaming.

Ain't life grand? <grin>

bel 




From macloudt at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Feb 28 09:49:16 2003
From: macloudt at yahoo.co.uk (Mary Ann <macloudt@yahoo.co.uk>)
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 09:49:16 -0000
Subject: Mimeographs
In-Reply-To: <b3mfi7+q66u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b3nbas+punn@eGroups.com>

Bboy Steve wrote:

> As a side note, does anyone beside me remember what a freshly
> mimeographed sheet of paper smelled like? I remember teachers 
handing
> out tests, and the first think every student did was smell the
> mineograph paper. Used to drive some of the teachers nut. They would
> look out over a sea of faces and see the whole class sniffing their 
tests.

I spent two years in a private school in the early '80s and every 
sheet of paper we received in class was mimeographed.  While I don't 
remember the smell of the stuff I do remember how difficult it was to 
read.  Specifically, my grade 7 English teacher handwrote all the 
stuff she mimeographed and used different coloured inks, especially 
pink and light green.  She may have thought this was pretty, but all 
I could see were lightly coloured blobs.  It used to drive me and my 
classmates up the wall.  At least most of the other teachers would 
use dark purple ink, which we could read.  *Everything* was 
handwritten; obviously none of my teachers could type.

What confuses me is that there were several photocopiers in the 
school.  I remember seeing one in the secretaries' office and there 
was even one in the library for use by the students for a 10 cents a 
sheet or so.  But the teachers obviously weren't allowed to use the 
photocopiers for general class use.  I don't think cost was an issue 
because this was a private school and the tuition fees were 
ridiculously high.  Very strange.

Mary Ann
(my brother likes to remind our parents that our dad paid all that 
tuition to Mother Johnson to turn me into a lady, and that dad should 
demand his money back)




From plumeski at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 28 11:17:56 2003
From: plumeski at yahoo.com (GulPlum <plumeski@yahoo.com>)
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 11:17:56 -0000
Subject: Reading, Writing, and Multiple Choice
In-Reply-To: <LIEDCSPGBPL76VQ1YFIC9WR4W31NM.3e5f0f20@tk>
Message-ID: <b3ngh4+dmev@eGroups.com>

Torsten wrote:

<snip>

> our non-language teachers could decrease our marks if we made too 
> many mistakes in our writing in any test. So if a maths or biology 
> test required a lot of written answers and you totally messed your 
> grammar and spelling up, you could get a worse mark than someone 
> who had the 'facts' just as correct at you but wrote correct 
> German, even if there was no problem understanding your answers 
> despite your mistakes. 

One of the teachers at my secondary school did one better (she taught 
several subjects). Not only would she mark you down for bad language 
use, but she'd have a word with the language teacher to cover a 
particular issue in their class, especially if a few kids continually 
made the same mistake. I always found it a perfectly sensible 
approach. It wasn't about one teacher telling another that they were 
doing a bad job, it was just pointing out to them that there was a 
specific problem that they might want to address. 

I do recall one situation after a French translation test, we went 
off on a huge tangent all about gerunds in English. I found it 
absolutely fascinating. I don't think anyone else did, though. :-)

--
GulPlum AKA Richard, whose school was a really, really crap place by 
anyone's standards (with the exception of one full-time and one part-
time teacher), and likes to think that anything he ever learned, he 
learned despite that place rather than because of it.





From dozierwoman at hotmail.com  Fri Feb 28 12:39:09 2003
From: dozierwoman at hotmail.com (Lisa <dozierwoman@hotmail.com>)
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 12:39:09 -0000
Subject: Mister Rogers
In-Reply-To: <b3makn+2e8k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b3nl9d+s79s@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Melody <Malady579 at h...>" 
<Malady579 at h...> wrote:
> Torsten asked:
> > > *shy request* Will someone tell me who both Mr Rogers and 
Valerie
> > > Singleton are?
> 
> 
> GulPlum wrote:
> >"Mr Rogers" is (or rather, was, considering he died this morning), 
as
> >I have found out today, a major figure in children's TV in North
> >America.
> 
> 
> As one of my friends told me recently...
> 
> You could say that.  You could also say the sky is blue.
> 
> You see.  Mister Rogers was a dear, dear man.  He was an honest,
> sensitive man.  *Always.*  There is no "behind the scenes" 
scandalous
> special on his life.  He was just and always Mister Rogers.  A few
> years ago, he received a special Grammy, and on the show, it was so
> amazing that he was in real life as he was portrayed in the show.  
We
> are so use to people on television "acting" that is was so 
refreshing
> and almost encouraging that Mister Rogers was in fact Mister Rogers.
> He was precisely what we always thought him to be as a kid.  So few
> perceptions in childhood hold true.  Mister Rogers is one of those.
> 
> He was so tender and gentle on his show.  He would walk to his house
> every day and come in at the precise time singing "It's a beautiful
> day in the neighborhood.  A beautiful day in the neighborhood.  
Would
> you be mine?  Won't you be mine?"  While he did he would change out 
of
> his adult "work" jacket and slip on leather shoes and into 
comfortable
> "play" cardigan sweater and softer lace up shoes.  He was not trendy
> or tricked up.  He was just the type of man that could kind of be 
your
> grandfather.
> 
> He would then continue to talk ever so calmly to you.  All while 
doing
> boring normal things like make bread or create a wooden box.  He 
would
> *always* remember to feed his fish.  Mr. McFeely would come with the
> mail and fun packages.
> 
> Sometimes Mr. Rogers would take us to trips to the music store to
> learn new instruments.  It was the first time I ever saw a "saw"
> played with a violin bow.  He would also go to the "local" school to
> show us that there is nothing to fear about kindergarten and the
> school bus drivers are friendly.  He would show how to buckle
> shoes...and oh, oh, he had this one video where he showed about how
> crayons are made.  Now I was so sure that *that* was the coolest 
thing
> I had ever seen.  Zillions of little red and blue and yellow crayons
> zooming around in conveyor belts.  I do so love to color you know.
> 
> And then there was the land of make believe.  Mister Rogers would 
turn
> on this trolley he had in his house that went off to the land of 
make
> believe like a toy train someone would have set up in their house.
> Sometimes he had these models he would "fade" from one land to the
> other.  It was always set up as a shift from reality.
> 
> It took me until I was a teenager to learn he was the one that was 
the
> voice for most of the puppets there.  It was a sort of walk-in 
puppet
> theater with a castle, big tree, merry go round, platypus mound 
thing,
> and a clock where the shy tiger Daniel lived.  Daniel was my 
favorite.
>  Though sometimes when I was a kid I thought he needed to get a
> backbone more, but he meant well.  Thinking back on it now, I cannot
> remember what the puppet plots were, but each puppet always had 
their
> own distinct personalities and goals, and I always looked forward to
> the land of make believe.
> 
> Really, to me, Mister Rogers was a show and a man I watched as a kid
> that was kind of basic and simple.  I don't really know why he was 
so
> enchanting to me and my brother.  We just laid there in the middle 
of
> the living room floor with our heads sharing the same pillow 
watching
> the show over and over.
> 
> Rest in peace Mister Rogers.
> 
> 
> Melody

Thanks, Melody for the rememberances. Thanks for taking me back more 
years than I care to think about to a special place where I could go 
someplace else for just a little while.

Lisa aka Lady Firenze




From dozierwoman at hotmail.com  Fri Feb 28 12:43:40 2003
From: dozierwoman at hotmail.com (Lisa <dozierwoman@hotmail.com>)
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 12:43:40 -0000
Subject: Reading, Writing, and Multiple Choice
In-Reply-To: <b3mfi7+q66u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b3nlhs+ef5n@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Steve <bboy_mn at y...>" 
<bboy_mn at y...> wrote:
> Since we are on the subject of reading, writing, and grammar, let me
> add an additional thought. I know we have some teacher here and I
> would be especially interested in their comments.
> 
> We live in the age of 'multiple choice'. When was the last time any
> kid actually had to write anything? One of the ways to improve your
> writing is to write. The more you do it, assume you are actually
> interested in getting better, the better you get. 
> 
> To what extent are kids required to write in the US educational 
system
> today?
> 
> When I was in high school, I remember most of our tests being short
> essay where a sheet of typing paper might contain 4 questions with
> space to leave your answers. So not only were we tested on that
> particular subject, but we were also graded on spelling and grammar.
> 
> As a side note, does anyone beside me remember what a freshly
> mimeographed sheet of paper smelled like? I remember teachers 
handing
> out tests, and the first think every student did was smell the
> mineograph paper. Used to drive some of the teachers nut. They would
> look out over a sea of faces and see the whole class sniffing their 
tests.
> 
> Just a thought.
> 
> bboy_mn

AHHHH, memeographed papers, lovely bluish-purple ink, heaven on a 
piece of paper. Oh the memories...

Lisa aka Lady Firenze
who is time traveling back to elementary school




From dozierwoman at hotmail.com  Fri Feb 28 12:51:04 2003
From: dozierwoman at hotmail.com (Lisa <dozierwoman@hotmail.com>)
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 12:51:04 -0000
Subject: Reading, Writing, and Multiple Choice
In-Reply-To: <b3mpfe+tqut@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b3nlvo+s72t@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Steve <bboy_mn at y...>" 
<bboy_mn at y...> wrote:
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Richelle Votaw" 
<rvotaw at i...>
> wrote:
> > 
> > bboy_mn wrote:
> > 
> > > We live in the age of 'multiple choice'. When was the last time 
> > > any kid actually had to write anything? One of the ways to 
improve
> > > your writing is to write. The more you do it, assume you are 
> > > actually interested in getting better, the better you get. 
> > > 
> > > To what extent are kids required to write in the US educational
> > > system today?
> > 
> > More all the time. In Louisiana, in order to pass fourth grade (9
> and 10 year olds) students must pass the LEAP test. No multiple
> choice, all written response.  ...
> >
> > ...edited...
> > 
> > Richelle
> 
> 
> bboy_mn:
> 
> GulPlum took the words right out of my mouth. Reading this restores 
my
> faith in the US educational system, and of all places Louisiana. 
> 
> Sorry about the Louisiana remark, but Louisiana doesn't carry the
> stereotype of being the most sophisticated place in the US. 
Generally,
> and again with apologies, the stereotype of someone from Louisiana 
is
> an uneducated swamp dwelling moonshine making cousin marrying... 
ah...
> I want to say hillbillie but their aren't any hills. Spend a few
> months in Fort Polk, LA; all red sand and trees. 
> 
> However, what you said makes it sound, more accurately I'm sure, 
like
> a very progressive state with an equally progressive, productive, 
and
>   effective educational system. You must have some very cooperative
> politicians in your state. 
> 
> Minnesota, while it has adopted some standards, constantly runs into
> the worhtless, in my opinion, argument that if you have mandatory
> testing then the teachers will teach the test. The other argument is
> that it will stifle creative teachers and progressive schools. I 
don't
> buy either one of those arguments myself. Luckly, in general,
> Minnesota has a high standard of education.
> 
> Anyway, the way your school is doing it makes perfect sense. It's
> simple and straight forward, and it deals with the actual problem
> rather than the symptoms. Plus, it doesn't seem to have been 
modified
> to pacify various special interests. I think, with the limited
> knowledge I have, that it could easily serve as a model for the 
whole
> country. 
> 
> Anyway, thanks for responding, and it truly was a relief to know 
that
> someone out there actually got it right.
> 
> Now I will end with one final apology for re-enforcing southern
> stereotypes. Stereotypes that couldn't possibly be more wrong. Hope 
I
> didn't go to far.
> 
> with respect,
> 
> bboy_mn

Don't worry about the southern stereotypes, I live in Kentucky and 
most people from other states (especially in the west) think we are 
all barefoot and pregnant. LOL.

Lisa aka Lady Firenze
who, incidently, is not barefoot or pregnant!




From blessedbrian at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 28 13:58:38 2003
From: blessedbrian at yahoo.com (Brian Cordova <blessedbrian@yahoo.com>)
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 13:58:38 -0000
Subject: Mister Rogers
In-Reply-To: <QNPNPWU72YW2UKLGICWRUQ95TRQLQN.3e5f0c28@tk>
Message-ID: <b3npue+pacd@eGroups.com>

  

  I never watched Mr. Rogers that much, however I do have a memory of 
channel-surfing a few years ago and finding his guest to be Margaret 
Hamilton (the wicked witch of the West).  The very kindly Ms. 
Hamilton spent a few moments of making up as the witch in order to 
demonstrate the difference between make-believe and reality, as it 
had always bothered her how much her character had frightened 
children all of these years (she had a deep love of children).  

  Another good memory of Mr. Rogers is even though he had already 
retired at the time, he came out of retirement long enough to address 
the many fears of children after the horrors of 9-11. 

  In many ways, Fred Rogers was similar to Professor Lupin, in 
teaching children not to avoid their fears, yet instead demonstrating 
ways of looking at them as to not to be overcome by them.

  An excellent lesson for adults as well.

  Brian:-)

       




From melclaros at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 28 16:57:49 2003
From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros <melclaros@yahoo.com>)
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 16:57:49 -0000
Subject: Reading, Writing, and Multiple Choice
In-Reply-To: <b3mfi7+q66u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b3o4ed+9ci6@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Steve <bboy_mn at y...>" 
<bboy_mn at y...> wrote:
> Since we are on the subject of reading, writing, and grammar, let me
> add an additional thought. I know we have some teacher here and I
> would be especially interested in their comments.
> 
> We live in the age of 'multiple choice'. When was the last time any
> kid actually had to write anything? One of the ways to improve your
> writing is to write. The more you do it, assume you are actually
> interested in getting better, the better you get. 
> 
> To what extent are kids required to write in the US educational 
system
> today?


Well in Florida they have to pass the dreaded "Florida Writes" test 
which sounds wonderful but is really horrific. What it has created is 
a monster of formulaic writing that has sucked the joy of creative 
writing out of more kids than I care to think about. I've had to read 
and judge essays for completely unrelated writing competitions and 
even those show a slavish adherence to the Florida Writes Formula. 
It's mind-numbing to read these things. I can't IMAGINE being forced 
to write them. My own son used to enjoy writing. He'd write goofy 
stories and plays...that stopped cold when he got to the Florida 
Writes testing age. He now HATES writing. Avoids it like the plague. 
He tells me it's boring. BORING! 
Breaks my heart. I'll take multiple choice over that ANY DAY!

Melpomene




From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 28 17:00:03 2003
From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent <psychic_serpent@yahoo.com>)
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 17:00:03 -0000
Subject: Reading, Writing, and Multiple Choice
In-Reply-To: <b3mpfe+tqut@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b3o4ik+2k6b@eGroups.com>

bboy_mn wrote:
We live in the age of 'multiple choice'. When was the last time any 
kid actually had to write anything? One of the ways to improve your 
writing is to write. The more you do it, assume you are 
actually interested in getting better, the better you get. 
To what extent are kids required to write in the US educational
system today?

Richelle Votaw wrote:
More all the time. In Louisiana, in order to pass fourth grade (9
and 10 year olds) students must pass the LEAP test. No multiple
choice, all written response.  ...

bboy_mn:
GulPlum took the words right out of my mouth. Reading this restores 
my faith in the US educational system, and of all places Louisiana. 
Sorry about the Louisiana remark, but Louisiana doesn't carry the
stereotype of being the most sophisticated place in the US.  

Me:
Interestingly enough, improving education in Arkansas was one of the 
great successes of Bill Clintons' years as governor there (Arkansas 
typically ranked 49th or 50th out of the fifty states in literacy 
levels before he took office).  It is vitally important for our 
leaders to support good education.  A lot of folks here who live in 
the US have probably heard about the flap in Portland, OR, where the 
schools might close five weeks early this year because of lack of 
money.  What kind of priorities are we setting when we're willing to 
spend a hundred billion dollars invading another country and 
rebuilding it, but one of the largest cities on the west coast can't 
fund their school system?

I'm trying to get my son signed up for school again because of 
various factors, not the least of which is I'd like to complete my 
architecture degree in under ten years, but I've been home-schooling 
him since September because we just weren't very happy with our 
public school choices after his transfer to a particular school was 
turned down (some other options have come to our attention since 
then).  He used to attend special reading classes for advanced 
children (he was two grade levels ahead) in kindergarten through 
third grade, but evidently this service isn't available to fourth 
graders, and he remained in his usual classroom for reading last 
year.  He grew bored and restless and his reading comprehension 
scores dropped twenty points on his standardized tests (spelling and 
vocabulary were still above the ninetieth percentile, oddly 
enough).  One thing we are looking at carefully in considering what 
school he will go to in September is what kind of reading support is 
available to the students--both those who need remedial help and 
those who are advanced.  One of the schools we are considering is a 
charter school, so they aren't necessarily hogtied by district 
policies regarding this.  (The school district is Philadelphia.)

My husband and I also attended Philadelphia public schools while 
growing up.  I had the benefit of attending reading classes with 
students two years older than me from fourth through sixth grades.  
When, in seventh and eighth grade, I had to basically redo work I'd 
already done in fifth and sixth grade, I was bored silly.  It helped 
that I was able to sign up for advanced classes in English once I 
reached high school, but my two years in junior high school made me 
feel like I was just spinning my wheels. 

Now my daughter is in her last year of being able to attend advanced 
reading class.  Her situation is even more dire than my son's; 
thanks in part to her reading the Harry Potter books ten times each 
(I am not making this up) as well as reading everything else she can 
get her hands on, her reading level is around ninth grade, or six 
levels higher than her grade.  Next year, in fourth grade, she will 
presumably be reading on a tenth-grade level and yet she'll be stuck 
doing fourth grade work because there is no advanced reading 
available for the fourth graders.  I'm hoping to avoid the problems 
we encountered with my son, and she is a more motivated reader than 
he is, so we may not have problems, but I still expect the poor kid 
to be bored silly.  She's on grade level for everything else and 
already about a year younger than most of her classmates, so 
skipping her ahead a grade wouldn't be a solution.  I think we're 
just going to have to grin and bear it.

If only it was a priority to politicians to make certain that 
students who need remedial help aren't left behind and students that 
are advanced don't languish, bored, in settings that waste their 
potential, because of the theory that students of a like age should 
stay together.  Instead we just get saber-rattling and jingoism.  
They're probably afraid that a better-educated populace would know 
better than to re-elect them.  Never let it be said politicians 
don't have priorities: to keep their jobs.

--Barb
(feeling cynical today...)


http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent
http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb







From melclaros at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 28 17:01:37 2003
From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros <melclaros@yahoo.com>)
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 17:01:37 -0000
Subject: Reading, Writing, and Multiple Choice
In-Reply-To: <b3nlhs+ef5n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b3o4lh+5iub@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Lisa <dozierwoman at h...>" 
<dozierwoman at h...> wrote:
t tests, and the first think every student did was smell the
> > mineograph paper. Used to drive some of the teachers nut. They 
would
> > look out over a sea of faces and see the whole class sniffing 
their 
> tests.
> > 
> > Just a thought.
> > 
> > bboy_mn
> 
> AHHHH, memeographed papers, lovely bluish-purple ink, heaven on a 
> piece of paper. Oh the memories...
> 
> Lisa aka Lady Firenze
> who is time traveling back to elementary school



Pssst! Those were DITTOS! Not mimeographs. It was the dittos with the 
blue print and the cool alcoholic smell!

Melpomene..who's mom used to run the machine. 




From siskiou at earthlink.net  Fri Feb 28 17:21:41 2003
From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne)
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 09:21:41 -0800
Subject: Where in Oregon , was Re: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Punctuation and Education and Suchnot
In-Reply-To: <b3n363+6bru@eGroups.com>
References: <b3n363+6bru@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3340395851.20030228092141@earthlink.net>



Hi,

Thursday, February 27, 2003, 11:30:11 PM, skelkins at attbi.com wrote:

> Where are you in Oregon, btw, Susanne?  There don't seem to be too 
> many people from our area around here at all.  I'm in Portland.

We are in Eugene.

Will have to spend some time in Portland standing in line to get my
green card renewed this year.

Maybe we can try out this German restaurant somebody told us
about, afterwards. We checked it out last weekend, but
everyone and their families seemed to be congregating there,
and the wait was three hours.

I hope it means the food is good ;)

-- 
Best regards,
 Susanne                           mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net




From starling823 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 28 17:38:59 2003
From: starling823 at yahoo.com (Sternel)
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 09:38:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Mr. Rogers -- crayons
In-Reply-To: <1046442166.723.26750.m12@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20030228173859.70702.qmail@web41102.mail.yahoo.com>


melody wrote:

> Sometimes Mr. Rogers would take us to trips to the
music store to
> learn new instruments.  It was the first time I ever
saw a "saw"
> played with a violin bow.  He would also go to the
"local" school to
> show us that there is nothing to fear about
kindergarten and the
> school bus drivers are friendly.  He would show how
to buckle
> shoes...and oh, oh, he had this one video where he
showed about how
> crayons are made.  Now I was so sure that *that* was
the coolest 
thing
> I had ever seen.  Zillions of little red and blue
and yellow crayons
> zooming around in conveyor belts.  I do so love to
color you know.

::happy gasp:: i had COMPLETELY forgotten about that
until now!  I remember that video, and they had the
mounds and mounds of crayons -- and i remember being
so jealous of the people who worked in that factory,
because as everyone knows, being the first person to
handle a fresh crayon that still has the nice little
point on it is one of the best things in the world.  
That, and the "Peanut Butter" video from Sesame Street
were two of my absolute favorite things.  And I hadn't
thought about them in age.

I'm finding I'm really not as sad about Mr. Roger's
passing as I thought I'd be.  I'm sorry for the loss
of a great soul, but Mr. Rogers lived a long and
incredibly full life, and left an indelible mark all
of us who grew up watching him -- what better legacy
could one hope to leave?  I feel so privilaged to have
grown up watching.

Abbie, who loved childhood

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/



From heidit at netbox.com  Fri Feb 28 18:00:54 2003
From: heidit at netbox.com (heiditandy)
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 13:00:54 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Mr. Rogers -- crayons -- grammar
In-Reply-To: <20030228173859.70702.qmail@web41102.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <027601c2df53$57bf9c50$9865fea9@Frodo>

Melody wrote: 
> 
> ...and oh, oh, he had this one video where he
> showed about how
> > crayons are made.  Now I was so sure that *that* was
> the coolest 
> thing
> > I had ever seen.  Zillions of little red and blue
> and yellow crayons
> > zooming around in conveyor belts.  I do so love to
> color you know.
> 
> ::happy gasp:: i had COMPLETELY forgotten about that
> until now!  I remember that video, and they had the
> mounds and mounds of crayons -- and i remember being
> so jealous of the people who worked in that factory,
> because as everyone knows, being the first person to
> handle a fresh crayon that still has the nice little
> point on it is one of the best things in the world.  
> 

I saw this last year a few times. Back last Fall, the Miami Museum of
Science had a special Mr Rogers exhibit, and although Harry (my 3 year
old) had never seen the show (it's only on here while he's at school) we
went a few times. He loved making the trolly go, and playing with the
puppets - especially Daniel Striped Tiger - and looking at the
letter-boxes along one of the walls - and they had a few segments from
the show on perma-play, including the crayons one. 

If you have kids - or want to borrow one for a few hours - see if the
*The Sky Above Mister Rogers Neighborhood* planetarium show will be at
your local planetarium or if the Pittsburgh Children's Museum traveling
exhibit will be in your town - they're great shows and I highly
recommend them.

******************************************************

On the issues of grammar and spelling...

As one of the fic-intake people at FictionAlley, I probably see more
teens' fictional writing than even the teachers here do, because we get
about 800 - 1000 submissions per week, and about 50% of them are from
13-18 year olds. That means that the intake team reads through chapters
and one-shot stories by about 400 junior high and high school students
each week.

And I'm not talking out of school to say that the grammar and spelling
in many of the submissions is perfect, at least in terms of the basics.
No, someone might not realise that there are three periods in an elipse,
and there's a lot of use of hyphens where, technically, a semicolon is
correct, but for things like punctuation, use of commas and periods, and
yes, the problematic apostrophes, most submitters get it right. If they
don't get it right the first time, when we send the fic back to the
author for editing, we give examples of the correct and incorrect ways,
and they get it right the second time, and from them on, it's usually
smooth sailing. 

Of course, we're not talking about average teens here. All of them have,
or at least there's a presumption that they have, read the HP novels, so
they've seen at least fifteen hundred pages of properly "grammaticized"
prose. And that's why it amazes me that they don't all get the
punctuation of the quotations, at least, right from the start. I mean,
how can someone read books that never improperly punctuate a quotation
and still write a story which includes something like this:

"It's  a sunny day today." He said.
"Yes, very blue sky." Hermione replied.

Where does the idea come from that this is the right way to do it? I
read my son books for 3-6 year olds, and they do it properly, even for
that age group, at least in terms of the comma-vs-period issue (although
they sometimes have two characters speaking in the same paragraph, which
is technically incorrect, but, well, it's Thomas The Tank Engine, and
one can make allowances).

I think that while many schools do teach the rules, a large number of
them don't explain the rules in context. I don't know the process for
teaching this, but it seems to me that giving the rules and then having
the kids find the applications of those rules in books helps them build
the context for it. But maybe this is just because my Harry can already
tell the difference between a period and a comma....


Heidi, who didn't realise that there should be four dots in an elipse at
the end of a sentence until she started beta reading




From urbana at charter.net  Fri Feb 28 18:26:11 2003
From: urbana at charter.net (Anne <urbana@charter.net>)
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 18:26:11 -0000
Subject: Learning styles (was: Fun With Apostrophes (LONG))
In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20030228014637.00a1dec0@pop.cox-internet.com>
Message-ID: <b3o9k3+bmbt@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Beth <belleps at o...> wrote:
> At 01:06 PM 2/27/03 +0000, Anne U wrote:
> >Richard, you sound a lot like me. I'm great with written words, but
> >often have a terrible time making verbal arguments or even 
completing
> >thoughts out loud ;-) This just means (according to a theory called
> >Perceptual Thinking Patterns) that you and I have a different type 
of
> >learning pattern than your friend does. I'd go into more about this
> >but it's a complicated theory - but I'm very impressed with it
> >because it has helped me explain (to myself and others) a lot about
> >why I NEED to write things down and DO NOT learn things merely by
> >hearing them.
> 
> This reminds me of a test I took in massage therapy school. At the 
> beginning of the course, they tested us to see whether we were 
visual, 
> oral, or tactile learners, or a combination. It was more for our 
own use, 
> so that we would know how best to study the materials. I turned out 
to be a 
> combination of visual and tactile, which meant that studying 
diagrams, 
> taking notes, and working with clay and models helped me immensely. 
> Listening to the teacher talk just didn't make the material stick. 
And I'm 
> much better with written communication than I am with oral. (In 
case you 
> couldn't tell. <grin>) I have to draw maps rather than just take 
verbal 
> directions, too. Once you've figured out your best learning mode, 
it really 
> does help to use it.
> 
> Fascinating.  :-}
> 
Yes, it is. I just Googled for "perceptual thinking patterns" and 
found this link to a webpage which (quite handily) was written by one 
of the people who led the PTP workshop I attended last September.
http://www.wapp.org/gorman.htm

Anne U
(whose pattern is Kinesthetic/Visual/Auditory - KVA; the 6 possible 
patterns are AKV, AVK, KAV, KVA, VAK and VKA)






From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 28 18:34:30 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve <bboy_mn@yahoo.com>)
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 18:34:30 -0000
Subject: Reading, Writing, and Multiple Choice
In-Reply-To: <b3o4ed+9ci6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b3oa3m+4apn@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "melclaros <melclaros at y...>"
<melclaros at y...> wrote:
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Steve <bboy_mn at y...>" 
> <bboy_mn at y...> wrote:
> > 
> > To what extent are kids required to write in the US educational 
> > system
> > today?
> 
> 
> Well in Florida they have to pass the dreaded "Florida Writes" test 
> which sounds wonderful but is really horrific. What it has created is 
> a monster of formulaic writing that has sucked the joy of creative 
> writing out of more kids than I care to think about. My own son
> used to enjoy writing. He'd write goofy  stories and plays ... that 
> stopped cold when he got to the Florida  Writes testing age. He now 
> HATES writing. ... I'll take multiple choice over that ANY DAY!
> 
> Melpomene

bboy_mn:

I would certainly be interested in hearing more about the Florida
Wrongs ...oops ...I guess that's suppose to Writes. (In Minnesota we
have 'Profiles in Learning' which while somewhat effective tends to
pit the state against the school district for control over teaching
and is relatively complex.) I think you are confronted by two problems
that I touched on in my second post in this thread. First, politicians
are not qualified to dictate education. Second, it sounds like a
classic case of 'let modify the symptoms to the point where no one
will recognise them that way we can completely ignore the real
problem' which is exactly how politician solve way too many of our
problems. Pacifying every special interest group is way more important
that actually educating children. Afterall, children don't vote.

Just a thought.

bboy_mn





From rosewoof at earthlink.net  Fri Feb 28 18:39:00 2003
From: rosewoof at earthlink.net (Rose Woofenden)
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 10:39:00 -0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Mister Rogers
In-Reply-To: <b3makn+2e8k@eGroups.com>
References: <b3makn+2e8k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a05200f00ba855bc0c164@[10.0.1.2]>

*sniping a long and wonderful post by Melody.*

I just wanted to say Thank You to Melody for the great post. A great 
tribute to Mr. Rogers. You describe him very well.

I never watched TV, my family has a TV free household, but I'd see 
the show at friends or other places. It was such a refreshing show 
compared to other shows. And as a teenager, when I was babysitting, 
I'd always offer Mr.Rogers as a TV option, instead of the other shows 
the kids would want to see. I knew it was show that I wouldn't have 
to worry about the kids watching, and they'd usually learn something 
too. Or think of a fun project to do. Or a game would be created 
because of something that happened in The Land Of Make Believe.

We need more Mr. Rogers in the world.

-- 
-Rose

Current song playing: Shaw Colvin- If I Were Brave.
Current book: Geometry Textbook
Last words said: "That would work."



From ken.kuller at veritas.com  Fri Feb 28 18:46:52 2003
From: ken.kuller at veritas.com (Kenneth M. Kuller <ken.kuller@veritas.com>)
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 18:46:52 -0000
Subject: Reading, Writing, and Multiple Choice
In-Reply-To: <b3oa3m+4apn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b3oaqs+9ht3@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Steve <bboy_mn at y...>" 
<bboy_mn at y...> wrote:


> [Snip] ... In Minnesota we


> have 'Profiles in Learning' which while somewhat effective tends to


> pit the state against the school district for control over teaching


> and is relatively complex.)






"Had" might be more appropriate.  The State House of Representatives 
repealed "Profile of learning" on 2/17.  The repeal has since been 
introduced to the State Senate where its passage seems likely.







From ken.kuller at veritas.com  Fri Feb 28 18:46:54 2003
From: ken.kuller at veritas.com (Kenneth M. Kuller <ken.kuller@veritas.com>)
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 18:46:54 -0000
Subject: Reading, Writing, and Multiple Choice
In-Reply-To: <b3oa3m+4apn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b3oaqu+7d28@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Steve <bboy_mn at y...>" 
<bboy_mn at y...> wrote:


> [Snip] ... In Minnesota we


> have 'Profiles in Learning' which while somewhat effective tends to


> pit the state against the school district for control over teaching


> and is relatively complex.)






"Had" might be more appropriate.  The State House of Representatives 
repealed "Profile of learning" on 2/17.  The repeal has since been 
introduced to the State Senate where its passage seems likely.







From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 28 19:15:49 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve <bboy_mn@yahoo.com>)
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 19:15:49 -0000
Subject: Reading, Writing, and Multiple Choice
In-Reply-To: <b3o4lh+5iub@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b3och5+2lhu@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "melclaros <melclaros at y...>"
<melclaros at y...> wrote:
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Lisa <dozierwoman at h...>" 
> <dozierwoman at h...> wrote:

> > > bboy_mn originally said:
> > > ... the first think every student did was smell the mineograph 
> > > paper. Used to drive some of the teachers nut. They  would
> > > look out over a sea of faces and see the whole class sniffing 
> > > their tests.
> > > 
> > > Just a thought.
> > > 
> > > bboy_mn

> > 
> > AHHHH, memeographed papers, lovely bluish-purple ink, heaven on a 
> > piece of paper. Oh the memories...
> > 
> > Lisa aka Lady Firenze
> > who is time traveling back to elementary school
> 
> 
> 
> Pssst! Those were DITTOS! Not mimeographs. It was the dittos with
> the  blue print and the cool alcoholic smell!
> 
> Melpomene..who's mom used to run the machine.


bboy_mn:

By golly, you are right. I was referring to the ones with the alcohol
(spirit ether) smell and the odd blue colored ink. In our case, they
were almost always hand written.

Of course, it's been years, but I was assuming that mimeographs and
DITTO's were the same thing. However, the indeed are not (I reseached it).

Anyone wanting more info could check -

Short Reference-
http://www.alteich.com/tidbits/t030402.htm

More detailed-
http://www.deadmedia.org/notes/2/025.html

Just a thought.

bboy_mn





From jmholmes at breckcomm.com  Fri Feb 28 18:59:51 2003
From: jmholmes at breckcomm.com (Julie Holmes)
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 11:59:51 -0700
Subject: Oprah reintroducing book club: CLASSICS this time
Message-ID: <012e01c2df5b$92cb2500$6401a8c0@arvada1.co.home.com>

Hmm. I'm not a huge Oprah fan, but I thought this was intriguing. Since so
many of the writers in Potterverse love the classics, I thought this could
be a good thing. I have read a few of Oprah's book club recs, and the only
one that I truly enjoyed was The Poisonwood Bible. I also read Midwives
(thought it was inaccurate in some parts) and Cutter's Gap, the latter which
didn't grab me particularly. Currently I'm reading Wicked, which is pretty
fun! Anyhow, keeping this mildly on-topic for HP, I just pulled some quotes
from Euripides' play Andromache, which features Hermione in it, for my fic
(Muggle Studies) and I'm looking forward to making more time for the
classics. Can you believe I've never read a single Jane Austen novel? I
don't know how that happened. I've read a lot (as it's my favorite hobby)
and I've read many classics...but no Jane Austen. I'm wondering if you all
like the classics a lot, or moderately, or if you enjoy them at all? Here's
the link to the Oprah announcement:

http://www.msnbc.com/news/878408.asp?cp1=1

I thought it was interesting in that most of the classics are in the public
domain now- so how to handle that in an Oprah-styled book club. All the
publishers and retailers are probably going to fight amongst themselves now.
It's never easy ;)


      (`'.(`'. .').')
     `..*Julie*..`  (Slytherincess)
       (.'(.' `'.)`'.)




From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 28 20:39:14 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve <bboy_mn@yahoo.com>)
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 20:39:14 -0000
Subject: Grammar and its Complexities.
In-Reply-To: <027601c2df53$57bf9c50$9865fea9@Frodo>
Message-ID: <b3ohdi+2ucq@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "heiditandy" <heidit at n...> wrote:

> ...edited...
>
> And that's why it amazes me that they don't all get the
> punctuation of the quotations, at least, right from the start. 
> I mean, how can someone read books that never improperly punctuate 
> a quotation and still write a story which includes something like 
> this:
> 
> "It's  a sunny day today." He said.
> "Yes, very blue sky." Hermione replied.
> 
> Where does the idea come from that this is the right way to do it? 
> 
> ...edited...
> 
> Heidi, who didn't realise that there should be four dots in an
> elipse at the end of a sentence until she started beta reading.

bboy_mn:

The problem comes from the fact that for every rule there are 10
exceptions. I can go to Stunk & White's Elements of Style and find 
the rules for proper use of commas and semicolons, but once you go
beyond the simplified examples and get into complex dynamic writing,
the rules aren't all that clear anymore. There are many times when you
know the rules clearly, but are very unclear as to how to apply them
to what you are trying to write at the moment.

You gave the examples-
> "It's  a sunny day today." He said.
> "Yes, very blue sky." Hermione replied.

But can you honestly tell me that there is no circumstance where -

"Statement in quotation [non-comma punctuation]" Identifying statement.

is the correct method?

Perhaps something like-

"Get out of the way, Colin!" Harry said angrily.

So logically, why is -

"Get out of the way, Colin." Harry said angrily.

wrong, while -

"Get out of the way, Colin!" Harry said angrily.

is right?

Then compound that by the fact that some of the rules make no sense.
Regardless of how absolute a rule maybe, it must make some logical
sense. For the life of me, I have never been able to see the logic of
why the comma in the following example comes inside the quotation.

"It's a sunny day today," he said.

Yeah, I know that's just the way it is. That's the rule and that's
that, but it still doesn't make logical sense to me.

Now the obsessive ellipsis controversy, another one of my gramatical
irritations. Sometines there is a need for punctuation that hasn't
been invented yet, so you do the best you can with what you've got.

el?lip?sis - 1.a. The omission of a word or phrase necessary for a
complete syntactical construction but not necessary for understanding.
b. An example of such omission. 2. A mark or series of marks ( . . .
or ? ? ? , for example) used in writing or printing to indicate an
omission, especially of letters or words. 

I would suspect that most people you chide for incorrect us of
ellipsis are indeed NOT substituting punctuation for 'the omission of
a word or pharase...'. In an odd way '...' is the punctuation
equivalent of 'etc'.

I'm a very ellipsical writer (made that word up, obviously). I use a
lot of ellipsis-like punctuation, but it is not for 'the omisson of a
word...', it is for pacing. It represents the ticks of a clock; the
proportional passage of time; more dots = more time. Is there some
alternate punctuation that serves this purpose that I am not aware of?
I see many writers use an ellipsis-like punctuation, especially when
characters are speaking, to show a hesitance in that speech and to
pace the words to more accuratly reflect how the character is speaking
them. These are usually pauses that are too short to break the speech
with a comment and still effectively maintain the pace. Someone once
suggest I use _ _ _ _ _ to accomplish this, but that didn't quite look
right. I will admit that I...... I sometimes.... let me think for a
moment........ sometimes go a little overboard doing this and it is a
habit I'm trying to break.

On the other hand, when a writer is truly using an ellipsis as it's
intented to be used, they should get it right. That particular
punctuation mark is not that complicated.

So do I actually have a point in all this ranting and raving? The
point is that the English language is a complex and confusing jumble
of sometimes marginally logical rules and many exceptions that make it
very difficult to write in and achieve complete techincal accuracy.

Having said that, I also acknowledge that despite its complexity, most
people can do a whole lot better than they are doing, if they simple
make an effort.

Sorry to ramble.

bboy_mn





From pepsiboy71 at mac.com  Fri Feb 28 20:43:50 2003
From: pepsiboy71 at mac.com (Pepsiboy)
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 15:43:50 -0500
Subject: Harry appearing in other movies?
Message-ID: <BA853436.3D6B%pepsiboy71@mac.com>

I sent this a while ago on the main HPFGU list a while ago, but received the
Mother of All Howlers by the Mod Squad.....anyway, I came across two things,
one from a movie coming up and one from a LONG time ago...

1) In one of the X-Men 2 Trailers, there is a quick scene where a soldier is
walking up to a boy.....doesn't the boy look like Harry??

2) I was doing a search on the Internet Movie Database, and came across a
movie, called "Troll".  This movie came out in 1986, but what surprised me
was that two of the main characters were called Harry Potter Jr (played by
Noah Hathaway), and Harry Potter Sr.!   I apologize if that has already seen
this and brought it and presented, but just in case.  I'm leaving the  URL
here in case anyone else wants to check...

http://us.imdb.com/Title?0092115

-Pep




From melclaros at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 28 21:25:47 2003
From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros <melclaros@yahoo.com>)
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 21:25:47 -0000
Subject: Reading, Writing, and Multiple Choice
In-Reply-To: <b3och5+2lhu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b3ok4r+m7a3@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Pssst! Those were DITTOS! Not mimeographs. It was the dittos with
> > the  blue print and the cool alcoholic smell!
> > 
> > Melpomene..who's mom used to run the machine.
> 
> 
> bboy_mn:
> 
> By golly, you are right. I was referring to the ones with the 
alcohol
> (spirit ether) smell and the odd blue colored ink. reseached it).
> bboy_mn


Dammit! Look at that apostrophe up there right where it shouldn't be! 
50 lashes with a wet apostrophe for me... WHOSE mom used to run the 
ditto machine. 

Mel, hiding under her stylebook in disgrace. I should have paid more 
attention to THAT ditto!




From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk  Fri Feb 28 22:14:25 2003
From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak <pipdowns@etchells0.demon.co.uk>)
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 22:14:25 -0000
Subject: Grammar and its complications
In-Reply-To: <027601c2df53$57bf9c50$9865fea9@Frodo>
Message-ID: <b3on01+b8fe@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "heiditandy" <heidit at n...> 
And that's why it amazes me that they don't all get the
> punctuation of the quotations, at least, right from the start. I 
mean,
> how can someone read books that never improperly punctuate a 
quotation
> and still write a story which includes something like this:
> 
> "It's  a sunny day today." He said.
> "Yes, very blue sky." Hermione replied.
> 
> Where does the idea come from that this is the right way to do it? 

> Heidi, who didn't realise that there should be four dots in an 
> elipse at the end of a sentence until she started beta reading.

Maybe it comes from those plays the poor teenagers have probably 
just been forced to study?

Pity the poor playwright or scriptwriter when they have to try and 
remember how to punctuate in prose.

After all, punctuation has a completely different purpose in scripts.

Comma? That's a short, pause. 

Semi-colon? Longer, longer; pause.

Full stop (period)? Long. Pause. Or the character has just finished 
their line.
 
Quotation marks? The actor needs to emphasise 'that' word or phrase. 

Quotation marks around dialogue? What? You're putting quotation 
marks around everyone's *dialogue*? You're kidding!

Elipse? The thought of the line is continuing, the words ....

Dash? Hesitation - probably thinking of - some word - or other.

Colon? 
Pip: The thing you put after the character's name and before their 
dialogue. Colons are always followed by capital letters.

Sentence. Does 'not' consist of subject, object, verb. Instead can 
consist of absolutely anything you like. One word lines are fine. No 
word lines are fine, including - 

Pip: Arghhurgleglurg!

Apostrophe? Can be placed as normal. If you really insist.

Pip





From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk  Fri Feb 28 22:24:11 2003
From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte)
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 22:24:11 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Grammar and its complications
References: <b3on01+b8fe@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3E5FE18B.000001.48845@monica>

 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
Date: 28 February 2003 22:14:35
To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Grammar and its complications
  
Maybe it comes from those plays the poor teenagers have probably 
just been forced to study?
 
<snip> explanation of punctuation in scripts.
 
Pip
 
 I used to hate reading plays at school. We rarely got to see them actually
performed and it's just not the same reading them. It's no wonder so many
people view Shakespeare as boring having been made to read some of his plays
at school. Plays should be performed; books should be read.

And how many other people around here were forced to learn certain parts of
Shakespeare etc at school and can *still* quote the darn things? It really
makes you wish that other text book were written like that. I mean I'm doing
an MA in Medieval Studies but can I remember useful dates? no. Can I still
quote passages from the Merchant of venice and Macbeth that I learnt at
school - hell yes.

K



From thalia at aokp.org  Fri Feb 28 22:32:35 2003
From: thalia at aokp.org (chanteuse thalia chaunacy)
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 14:32:35 -0800
Subject: quotalicious
Message-ID: <WorldClient-F200302281432.AA32350028@aokp.org>

sit back. i just finished CoS & PoA, and turned down many a-corner o' 
wit. i keep sending quotes to this list because i never *ever* mind 
reading other people's. <shrug>

---

"I think I'd better do the actual stealing," Hermione continued in a 
matter-of-fact tone. "You two will be expelled if you get into any more 
trouble, and I've got a clean record. So all you need to do is cause 
enough mayhem to keep Snape busy for five minutes or so."

Harry smiled feebly. Deliberately causing mayhem in Snape's Potions class 
was about as safe as poking a sleeping dragon in the eye.

***

[the intrepid trio have just transformed via polyjoice and hermione tells 
them through the stall door that she's not going]

Harry looked at Ron, bewildered.

"*That* looks more like Goyle," said Ron.  "That's how he looks every 
time a teacher asks him a question."

***

[still polyjuiced, talking to malfoy]

"Azkaban?" said Harry, puzzled.

"Azkaban -- *the wizard prison*, Goyle," said Malfoy, looking at him in 
disbelief.  "Honestly, if you were any slower, you'd be going backward."

***

[speaking about the newly-found riddle diary]

"Oooh, it might have hidden powers," said Hermione enthusiastically, 
taking the diary and looking at it closely.

"If it has, it's hiding them very well," said Ron.  "Maybe it's shy."

***

[the mandrakes et al]

Madam Pomfrey was pleased to report that the Mandrakes were becoming 
moody and secretive, meaning that they were fast leaving childhood.

***

"Harry -- I think I've just understood something! I've got to go to the 
library!"

And she sprinted away, up the stairs.

"*What* does she understand?" said Harry distractedly, still looking 
around, trying to tell where the voice had come from.

"Loads more than I do," said Ron, shaking his head.

***

"Only a true Gryffindor could have pulled that out of the hat, Harry," 
said Dumbledore simply.

<such a bad joke! but i'm so glad they kept it in the movie!>

***

[in the Magical Menagerie]

...a basket of funny custard-colored furballs that were humming loudly...

<tribbles!!!! who knew!!>

***

[after Crookshanks jumps on Ron in the Magical Menagerie]

"What *was* that?"

"It was either a very big cat or quite a small tiger," said Harry.

***

"I'm *not* going to be murdered," Harry said out loud.

"That's the spirit, dear," said his mirror sleepily.

***

"Setting dementors around a school," she muttered, pushing back Harry's 
hair and feeling his forehead. "He won't be the last one who collapses.  
Yes, he's all clammy.  Terrible things, they are, and the effect they 
have on people who are already delicate --"

"I'm not delicate!" said Harry crossly.

"Of course you're not," said Madam Pomfrey absentmindedly, now taking his 
pulse.

<nice try, Harry.>

***

Hagrid howled still more loudly.  Harry and Hermione looked at Ron to 
help them.

"Er -- shall I make a cup of tea?" said Ron.

Harry stared at him.

"It's what my mum does whenever someone's upset," Ron muttered, shrugging.

<this is what i hear about brits! and the lovely maggie smith says as 
much as Wendy Darling in the fabulous movie 'Hook'>

***

<Sir Cadogan at any point, really, but this is the best one>

When they reached the portrait hole, they found Sir Cadogan enjoying a 
Christmas party with a couple of monks, several previous headmasters of 
Hogwarts, and his fat pony.  He pushed up his visor and toasted them with 
a flagon of mead.

"Merry -- hic -- Christmas!  Password?"

"Scurvy cur," said Ron.

"And the same to you, sir!" roared Sir Cadogan as the painting swung 
forward to admit them.

---

teehee!  more from GoF when i finish it for the fourth time!

thalia 'never tires of canon' chaunacy




From jenP_97 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 28 22:42:50 2003
From: jenP_97 at yahoo.com (Jennifer Piersol <jenP_97@yahoo.com>)
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 22:42:50 -0000
Subject: Reading, Writing, and Multiple Choice
In-Reply-To: <b3o4lh+5iub@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b3oola+ca5t@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "melclaros <melclaros at y...>"
<melclaros at y...> wrote:

> 
> Pssst! Those were DITTOS! Not mimeographs. It was the dittos with the 
> blue print and the cool alcoholic smell!
> 
> Melpomene..who's mom used to run the machine.

Which machine made the papers that smelled like peanut butter?

JenP, vividly remembering purple writing and the third grade, sitting
in the back of the room smelling the timed multiplication test...




From skelkins at attbi.com  Fri Feb 28 22:54:16 2003
From: skelkins at attbi.com (ssk7882 <skelkins@attbi.com>)
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 22:54:16 -0000
Subject: Informal grammar and reading plays
In-Reply-To: <3E5FE18B.000001.48845@monica>
Message-ID: <b3opao+30e5@eGroups.com>

Pip wrote:

> Full stop (period)? Long. Pause. Or the character has just 
> finished their line.

> Sentence. Does 'not' consist of subject, object, verb. Instead can 
> consist of absolutely anything you like. One word lines are fine. 

Funny.  I'd always thought those rules applied to prose fiction as 
well.  *And* to other types of informal writing.  Non-academic 
essays, for example.  Or, uh, well, you know.  Written chit-chat.

Huh.


Kathryn wrote:

> I used to hate reading plays at school. We rarely got to see them 
> actually performed and it's just not the same reading them. It's 
> no wonder so many people view Shakespeare as boring having been 
> made to read some of his plays at school. Plays should be 
> performed; books should be read. 

Oh, I always loved reading plays in school!  In fact, I still love
reading plays.  The big problem with reading plays as fiction, 
though, is that I find that when I finally get to see a performance 
of a play that I have read, I have problems enjoying it.  I tend to 
visualize plays while I read them, you see, much in the same way that 
I visualize fiction, and then when I finally do get to see a 
performance, it seems all "wrong."  The characters don't look the way 
I imagined them looking.  They don't deliver their lines the way I 
imagined them speaking.  I wind up having the exact same problem that 
I often have enjoying movie adaptations of books that I have read.

I have tried to combat this problem by reminding myself whenever I
read a play that it is a *play,* that it was written to be 
*performed,* that it is not really meant to stand on its own as a 
piece of written fiction, and so forth.

But it only sometimes works.

Elkins




From plumeski at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 28 23:30:44 2003
From: plumeski at yahoo.com (GulPlum <plumeski@yahoo.com>)
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 23:30:44 -0000
Subject: Harry appearing in other movies?
In-Reply-To: <BA853436.3D6B%pepsiboy71@mac.com>
Message-ID: <b3orf4+p85b@eGroups.com>

Pepsiboy wrote:

> 1) In one of the X-Men 2 Trailers, there is a quick scene where a
> soldier is walking up to a boy.....doesn't the boy look like Harry?

Considering all we get in the first trailer is a long shot from above 
of a kid with dark brown hair and glasses, it could be just about 
anyone. We don't get any kind of indication of his size/age, so if 
all brown-haired boys with glasses look like Harry, then sure, he 
looks like Harry. In the second trailer, there's a shot from behind 
his back of (presumably) the same boy watching TV. He turns his head 
towards his left and we get a pretty good profile. Is it Harry? Sure, 
if, again, all brown-haired boys in spectacles look like Harry...

Otherwise, perhaps not.

> 2) I was doing a search on the Internet Movie Database, and came
> across a movie, called "Troll".  This movie came out in 1986, but 
> what surprised me was that two of the main characters were called 
> Harry Potter Jr (played by Noah Hathaway), and Harry Potter Sr.!   
> I apologize if that has already seen this and brought it and 
> presented, but just in case.  http://us.imdb.com/Title?0092115

Yes, that movie has been known to HP fandom for a long time, and 
there's been a bit of speculation about whether or not JKR has ever 
been aware of it and got her hero's name from it. 

As it happens, the name is where the similarities end. I've seen it 
on TV somewhere along the way. It's in the style of the Gremlins 
bandwagon in the 80s (Critters, Ghoulies, etc), and Troll is probably 
among the more amusing. There's no plot to speak of, but that's not 
what it's about. It's just a showcase for silliness and animatronic 
creatures blowing up. The Potter family, incidentally, are the heroes 
of the piece who (think they) do away with the Trolls.

I suspect that it's highly unlikely that JKR ever would have been 
aware of it, as AFAIK it was never released in the UK. It certainly 
never had a cinema release; I know that Troll 2 had a video release a 
while back but it features a completely plot (if that's what you can 
call it) and a different family. 

JKR doesn't strike me as the kind of person who'd make time to watch 
late-night cheap horror movies, which is the only way she would have 
seen it 15 years ago or so. In any event, even if she'd seen Troll, 
and it gave her the idea for the name, it probably would have been a 
subliminal connection and she'd strenuously deny it.

It's an intriguing connection all the same.

 




From kelleythompson at gbronline.com  Fri Feb 28 23:51:32 2003
From: kelleythompson at gbronline.com (Kelley <kelleythompson@gbronline.com>)
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 23:51:32 -0000
Subject: JKR to appear on The Simpsons
Message-ID: <b3osm4+igen@eGroups.com>

A gentleman in another HP group posted this link:


http://my.aol.com/news/news_story.psp?
type=4&cat=0800&id=0302280756239465


--Kelley