Grammar and its Complexities.

[Steve <bboy_mn@yahoo.com>]

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "heiditandy" <heidit at n...> wrote:

> ...edited...
>
> And that's why it amazes me that they don't all get the
> punctuation of the quotations, at least, right from the start. 
> I mean, how can someone read books that never improperly punctuate 
> a quotation and still write a story which includes something like 
> this:
> 
> "It's  a sunny day today." He said.
> "Yes, very blue sky." Hermione replied.
> 
> Where does the idea come from that this is the right way to do it? 
> 
> ...edited...
> 
> Heidi, who didn't realise that there should be four dots in an
> elipse at the end of a sentence until she started beta reading.

bboy_mn:

The problem comes from the fact that for every rule there are 10
exceptions. I can go to Stunk & White's Elements of Style and find 
the rules for proper use of commas and semicolons, but once you go
beyond the simplified examples and get into complex dynamic writing,
the rules aren't all that clear anymore. There are many times when you
know the rules clearly, but are very unclear as to how to apply them
to what you are trying to write at the moment.

You gave the examples-
> "It's  a sunny day today." He said.
> "Yes, very blue sky." Hermione replied.

But can you honestly tell me that there is no circumstance where -

"Statement in quotation [non-comma punctuation]" Identifying statement.

is the correct method?

Perhaps something like-

"Get out of the way, Colin!" Harry said angrily.

So logically, why is -

"Get out of the way, Colin." Harry said angrily.

wrong, while -

"Get out of the way, Colin!" Harry said angrily.

is right?

Then compound that by the fact that some of the rules make no sense.
Regardless of how absolute a rule maybe, it must make some logical
sense. For the life of me, I have never been able to see the logic of
why the comma in the following example comes inside the quotation.

"It's a sunny day today," he said.

Yeah, I know that's just the way it is. That's the rule and that's
that, but it still doesn't make logical sense to me.

Now the obsessive ellipsis controversy, another one of my gramatical
irritations. Sometines there is a need for punctuation that hasn't
been invented yet, so you do the best you can with what you've got.

el·lip·sis - 1.a. The omission of a word or phrase necessary for a
complete syntactical construction but not necessary for understanding.
b. An example of such omission. 2. A mark or series of marks ( . . .
or · · · , for example) used in writing or printing to indicate an
omission, especially of letters or words. 

I would suspect that most people you chide for incorrect us of
ellipsis are indeed NOT substituting punctuation for 'the omission of
a word or pharase...'. In an odd way '...' is the punctuation
equivalent of 'etc'.

I'm a very ellipsical writer (made that word up, obviously). I use a
lot of ellipsis-like punctuation, but it is not for 'the omisson of a
word...', it is for pacing. It represents the ticks of a clock; the
proportional passage of time; more dots = more time. Is there some
alternate punctuation that serves this purpose that I am not aware of?
I see many writers use an ellipsis-like punctuation, especially when
characters are speaking, to show a hesitance in that speech and to
pace the words to more accuratly reflect how the character is speaking
them. These are usually pauses that are too short to break the speech
with a comment and still effectively maintain the pace. Someone once
suggest I use _ _ _ _ _ to accomplish this, but that didn't quite look
right. I will admit that I...... I sometimes.... let me think for a
moment........ sometimes go a little overboard doing this and it is a
habit I'm trying to break.

On the other hand, when a writer is truly using an ellipsis as it's
intented to be used, they should get it right. That particular
punctuation mark is not that complicated.

So do I actually have a point in all this ranting and raving? The
point is that the English language is a complex and confusing jumble
of sometimes marginally logical rules and many exceptions that make it
very difficult to write in and achieve complete techincal accuracy.

Having said that, I also acknowledge that despite its complexity, most
people can do a whole lot better than they are doing, if they simple
make an effort.

Sorry to ramble.

bboy_mn