From Lord1912 at juno.com  Wed Jan  1 01:07:31 2003
From: Lord1912 at juno.com (lord1912 <Lord1912@juno.com>)
Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 01:07:31 -0000
Subject: "Rickman" sighting
Message-ID: <autf0j+t0r0@eGroups.com>

I was in the supermarket yesterday and I got into line with a man 
who was a dead ringer for Alan Rickman.  I, of course, immediately 
began talking to him as soon as I stopped drooling!




From thalia at aokp.org  Wed Jan  1 01:48:59 2003
From: thalia at aokp.org (chanteuse thalia chaunacy)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 17:48:59 -0800
Subject: a friend's astute analysis ;)
Message-ID: <WorldClient-F200212311748.AA48590115@aokp.org>

jrthebug: harry potter rules!  yeah!
Britz27: laugh.  I loved the books
jrthebug: seen movies?
Britz27: dirty little secret
Britz27: yeah, I did
Britz27: they fulfill my inner child
jrthebug: dirty little secret?
Britz27: deliciously
jrthebug:  :)
jrthebug: more adults read them than kids
Britz27: not really dirty or a secret
jrthebug: honestly
jrthebug: :)
Britz27: they just are so damn entertaining and satisfying
Britz27: like eating all appetizers for dinner
Britz27: you know?
jrthebug: laugh
Britz27: no heavy main course
jrthebug: mind if i quote you on that?
Britz27: not at all
jrthebug: neat :)

cheers
thalia 'must be a nerd if she saves her IM conversations' chaunacy

"Ah, music. A magic beyond all we do here!"  -Albus Dumbledore




From linkajarjarbinks at yahoo.com  Wed Jan  1 03:07:11 2003
From: linkajarjarbinks at yahoo.com (Matilda Trelawney)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 19:07:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] "Rickman" sighting
In-Reply-To: <autf0j+t0r0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20030101030711.41140.qmail@web12804.mail.yahoo.com>


Oh my gosh! Was it really him??? What did you say? What did HE say? Did you go on a date? Oh okay, I'm getting a little bit a head of myself. But come on, come on, what happened? 
 "lord1912 <Lord1912 at juno.com>" <Lord1912 at juno.com> wrote:I was in the supermarket yesterday and I got into line with a man 
who was a dead ringer for Alan Rickman.  I, of course, immediately 
began talking to him as soon as I stopped drooling!


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From Lord1912 at juno.com  Wed Jan  1 04:46:20 2003
From: Lord1912 at juno.com (lord1912 <Lord1912@juno.com>)
Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 04:46:20 -0000
Subject: "Rickman" sighting
In-Reply-To: <20030101030711.41140.qmail@web12804.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <autrqs+3d9i@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Matilda Trelawney 
<linkajarjarbinks at y...> wrote:
> 
> Oh my gosh! Was it really him??? What did you say? What did HE 
say? Did you go on a date? Oh okay, I'm getting a little bit a head 
of myself. But come on, come on, what happened? 


It was just a lookalike.....I doubt Alan Rickman would be in a 
jerkwater town in South Carolina.

But Alan's lookalike was ten years younger than him....and two years 
older than me.....but undoubtedly married, I'm sure.




From drednort at alphalink.com.au  Wed Jan  1 06:45:52 2003
From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately)
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 17:45:52 +1100
Subject: Detentions
In-Reply-To: <autrqs+3d9i@eGroups.com>
References: <20030101030711.41140.qmail@web12804.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3E132950.2280.1023F64@localhost>

http://education.guardian.co.uk/schools/story/0,5500,865173,00.html

What would they make of Hogwarts style detentions? (-8

Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought
Shaun Hately |webpage: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html
(ISTJ)       |email: drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200
"You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in
common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter
the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen
to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who:
The Face of Evil | Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia




From the_little_catboy at yahoo.ca  Wed Jan  1 08:10:32 2003
From: the_little_catboy at yahoo.ca (Caleb Williamson)
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 03:10:32 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Happy New Year from Canada
In-Reply-To: <atbrbo+buhu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20030101081032.82392.qmail@web11405.mail.yahoo.com>

This is Caleb wishing all of you over the globe a very
happy and prosperous 2003.
Caleb W.

______________________________________________________________________ 
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca



From macloudt at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Jan  1 10:32:18 2003
From: macloudt at yahoo.co.uk (Mary Ann <macloudt@yahoo.co.uk>)
Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 10:32:18 -0000
Subject: Detentions
In-Reply-To: <3E132950.2280.1023F64@localhost>
Message-ID: <auug3i+uu3m@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Shaun Hately" 
<drednort at a...> wrote:
> http://education.guardian.co.uk/schools/story/0,5500,865173,00.html
> 
> What would they make of Hogwarts style detentions? (-8

Unbelievable.  Truly, madly, deeply unbelievable.

And how does this girl expect to deal with the Real World when she 
encounters it?  She'll be in court for the rest of her life sueing 
someone or something, methinks.  The world doesn't revolve around 
you, honey.  Learn to live with it.

Frankly I think this girl could *benefit* from a nice night out in 
the Forbidden Forest.  God, I miss the screaming ;)

Mary Ann
(who's had her fair share of detentions and knows darned well that 
she deserved them)




From sushi at societyhappens.com  Wed Jan  1 11:14:55 2003
From: sushi at societyhappens.com (Sushi)
Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 05:14:55 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Detentions
In-Reply-To: <3E132950.2280.1023F64@localhost>
References: <autrqs+3d9i@eGroups.com>
 <20030101030711.41140.qmail@web12804.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030101050538.00a812e0@mail.societyhappens.com>

At 05:45 PM 1/1/03 +1100, you wrote:
><http://education.guardian.co.uk/schools/story/0,5500,865173,00.html>http://education.guardian.co.uk/schools/story/0,5500,865173,00.html
>
>What would they make of Hogwarts style detentions? (-8

         Er... *goes back to reread that*

         My god.  And my mother thought *I* was a whiny little cow.  If I'd 
come into school by a fire door, they'd have sent me to in-house detention 
for a good month.  This girl (a) has no concept of what civil rights 
entail, (b) needs to learn the difference between good and bad attention, 
and (c) needs to grow up.  I think an argument could be made that a 
lunchtime detention does not, in fact, intrude on her free time as she is 
at school for the period and therefore subject to its governance.

         Oh, what I'd give to sic Severus on her.  That might give her a 
better idea of the *real* meaning of detention.  Those lunch 
periods?  Child's play.

Sushi, who only suffered detention once, and *that* for sitting down in her 
chair, after running a quarter mile across campus, just as the bell stopped 
ringing (I was a female Percy before getting it through my skull that 
slacking can be healthy)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From susannahlm at yahoo.com  Wed Jan  1 17:13:18 2003
From: susannahlm at yahoo.com (susannahlm <susannahlm@yahoo.com>)
Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 17:13:18 -0000
Subject: a friend's astute analysis
Message-ID: <auv7je+lll5@eGroups.com>

Anybody who thinks that the Harry Potter books contain no "heavy main 
course" has clearly never read Elkins' nine-part Crouch 
manifesto. : ) No affront to thalia's friend intended, but one of the 
reasons that I enjoy HP is that there is more to it than an 
appetizer; more to it, indeed, than there is to a lot of "adult's 
fiction" these days (think Stephen King).  

Again, no offense : )

Derannimer 




From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Wed Jan  1 20:15:44 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve <bboy_mn@yahoo.com>)
Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 20:15:44 -0000
Subject: Detentions
In-Reply-To: <3E132950.2280.1023F64@localhost>
Message-ID: <auvi9h+a13c@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Shaun Hately" <drednort at a...>
wrote:
> http://education.guardian.co.uk/schools/story/0,5500,865173,00.html
> 
> What would they make of Hogwarts style detentions? (-8
> 
> Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought
> Shaun Hately |webpage: 


Quotes from Article-
European Convention on Human Rights - Under Article 5 of the European
Convention, detention can only take place if there is a "lawful order".

He (the lawyer) said this would mean that a detention due to run in a
child's free time, as it had in Freya's case, could not come from the
school itself but would need this legal authority.
-end quotes-

Correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't the word 'detention' as used in a
civil right law, refer to unlawful imprisonment? As in, you can not be
held in detention, jail, prison, or locked confinement without due
process of law.

This girl was made to stay inside during the lunch hour (or half
hour), she was not deprived of her freedom, she was not locked in a
prison, I suspect she was not deprived of her lunch either. They are
taking a broad general use of the word 'detention' and applying a very
specific meaning to it; a meaning which does not truly reflect the
action of this detention.

I would have to ask, how many other student got this many detentions?
At some point didn't occur to her that maybe she should stop screwing
up if she didn't like detention? Is this girl so deluded into
believing that she is the center of the universe and that all things
exist to serve her, that she has no grasp of the function of the world
around her?

Too many kids today (more so in the US) have a unrealistic sense of
priviledge that tells them that they always get their way and they
always get what they want. That they are above the rest and that
because of their status as a high school jock, or just general
megalomaniac, the world should yield to their desires. Can you spell
Draco Malfoy?

This is exactly the leason we are suppose to learn from Draco Malfoy.
Draco sees himself as priviledged. By virtue of the fact that he
exists, he should be the center of the universe, the center of
everyone's attention, and should be given freedoms and priviledges
that other mere mortals do not deserve, and should be above the rules
that govern the mere mortals of the mudane world. 

The problem Draco has with Harry is that Harry is stealing all of
Draco's attention, and I do mean stealing as in the theft of something
that by right of birth belongs to Draco. Draco and only Draco is
worthy of being the Crown Prince of Hogwarts and the King of all
Slytherins; the hero, the champion, desired and admired by all but
virtue of nothing more than the fact that he is Draco Malfoy. No need
for achievement, no need for honor or character or integrity, no need
for a sense of justic and fair play, no need for skill or talent, no
need to prove his greatness; these things are not proven or establish,
they are assumed as his birthright. 

Ooooouuuuuuu! People like this just frost my buns.


Of course, that's just my opinion.

bboy_mn





From judyshapiro at directvinternet.com  Thu Jan  2 00:01:26 2003
From: judyshapiro at directvinternet.com (Judy <judyshapiro@directvinternet.com>)
Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 00:01:26 -0000
Subject: Detentions
In-Reply-To: <auvi9h+a13c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <auvvgn+37vi@eGroups.com>

Quotes from Article that Shaun linked to:
> European Convention on Human Rights - Under Article 5 of the
European
> Convention, detention can only take place if there is a "lawful
> order".
> He (the lawyer) said this would mean that a detention due to run in
a
> child's free time, as it had in Freya's case, could not come from
the
> school itself but would need this legal authority.

And Steve the Bboy (um, what *is* a Bboy?) said:
> wouldn't the word 'detention' as used in a
> civil right law, refer to unlawful imprisonment? 
> As in, you can not be held in detention, jail, prison, or locked
> confinement without due process of law.
> ...[The plaintiffs] are taking a broad
> general use of the word 'detention' and applying a very
> specific meaning to it; a meaning which does not truly reflect the
> action of this detention.

I agree.  This seems to be a misinterpretation of what the Human
Rights convention means by "detention." Let's hope the judge in the
case agrees with us.  Teachers already have very few tools for dealing
with disruptive students, and this problem interferes with the right
of the other students to get an education. 

Steve added:
> This is exactly the leason we are suppose to learn from Draco
Malfoy.
> Draco sees himself as priviledged. By virtue of the fact that he
> exists, he should be the center of the universe, the center of
> everyone's attention, and should be given freedoms and priviledges
> that other mere mortals do not deserve, and should be above the
rules
> that govern the mere mortals of the mudane world. 

Audra pointed out on the main list that Lucius is a good example of a
narcissistic personality, which basically consists of the personality
characteristics Steve just described, plus a few others such as a
tendancy to see others as either completely good (if they help bolster
one's self-image) or completely bad (if they don't bolster one's
self-image.)  In fact, one might say that Draco's animosity to Harry,
after Harry refused to shake hands with him, fits this later trait. I
suspect JKR intends for the whole Malfoy family to serve as examples
of narcissists.  She even named Mrs. Malfoy "Narcissa." 

Steve ended with:
> Of course, that's just my opinion.

No, no, that's your story and you should stick to it!

-- Judy




From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Thu Jan  2 00:31:07 2003
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David <dfrankiswork@netscape.net>)
Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 00:31:07 -0000
Subject: Shipping the Trio and the Twins
In-Reply-To: <aul75g+nevi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <av018b+2u9l@eGroups.com>

Derannimer wrote
> 
> I've been reading through the "Romantic Pairings" FAQ lately 
> (*Gorgeous* work on the Fantastic Posts, btw), and some of the 
early 
> R/H vs. H/H posts contained an interesting theory: that R/H fans 
and 
> H/H fans split with each other on more than just Hermione. In 
other 
> words, that R/H fans read *many* aspects of the books differently 
> than H/H fans do. Some posters said that H/H'ers tend to go softer 
> on the Slyths, for example. 

I find this a very interesting question, too.  I'd say it touches on 
one of the central contradictions in my personality, that I want to 
find patterns in people's beliefs and behaviour, and seek out 
explanations for them, but when anyone identifies such a pattern my 
first impulse is to make sure I don't fit it.

That said, I have never been able to formulate any really 
satisfactory hypotheses about positions that are apparently 
correlated, e.g. 'young Hermione' and H/H.  I suppose first we need 
a massive multivariate poll.

There's also the tricky question of what you think is 'true' or will 
happen versus what you want to be true - not that I've come across 
anyone with beliefs that strongly contradict their preferences 
(e.g. "I think canon is firmly R/H but I feel Harry is the right 
person for Hermione").

Judy added:

> Well, as far as we can tell, Snape is celibate. However, he's not
> doing well when it comes to being contented, well-adjusted, 
> fulfilled, or happy.

I have this secret hope that Snape turns out to be nasty *because* 
he is happily married - he goes back to his Unplottable rooms after 
an unsuccesful night's prowling, ready to throw the towel in and 
accept Dumbledore's softer approach, and his partner urges him to 
new efforts of contrariness (as well as reminding him not to wash 
his hair or brush his teeth).  Doubtless someone will tell me it's 
been done in fanfic.

David, who would like to hear more of Elkins' views on the evil, 
twisted and deranged nature of the romantic paradigm




From huntleyl at mssm.org  Thu Jan  2 00:47:26 2003
From: huntleyl at mssm.org (Laura Ingalls Huntley)
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 19:47:26 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Shipping the Trio and the Twins
In-Reply-To: <av018b+2u9l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <BNEPJHMDKNKONPANMBMGEEHPCAAA.huntleyl@mssm.org>


David:
>I find this a very interesting question, too.  I'd say it touches on
>one of the central contradictions in my personality, that I want to
>find patterns in people's beliefs and behaviour, and seek out
>explanations for them, but when anyone identifies such a pattern my
>first impulse is to make sure I don't fit it.

Heh, me too, actually...I usually get really offended by such
"generalizations" as well (if they aren't mine, that is).  Ah well, I
believe everyone is really a bit of a hypocrite anyway.

David:
>There's also the tricky question of what you think is 'true' or will
>happen versus what you want to be true - not that I've come across
>anyone with beliefs that strongly contradict their preferences
>(e.g. "I think canon is firmly R/H but I feel Harry is the right
>person for Hermione").

Actually, that example is exactly the way I feel.  However, I am a bit of a
pessimist, so I am unsure as to whether this is a sign that canon actually
points towards a R/H relationship, or if it's just me assuming that it will
not turn out "right".

laura




From Ali at zymurgy.org  Thu Jan  2 12:27:56 2003
From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali <Ali@zymurgy.org>)
Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 12:27:56 -0000
Subject: Detentions
In-Reply-To: <auvi9h+a13c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <av1b8c+gvql@eGroups.com>


 "Shaun Hately" wrote: 
http://education.guardian.co.uk/schools/story/0,5500,865173,00.html
 
> > What would they make of Hogwarts style detentions? (-8

Bboy wrote: 
 
>> This girl was made to stay inside during the lunch hour (or half
 hour), she was not deprived of her freedom, she was not locked in a
prison, I suspect she was not deprived of her lunch either. They are
 taking a broad general use of the word 'detention' and applying a 
very specific meaning to it; a meaning which does not truly reflect 
the action of this detention.
 
 I would have to ask, how many other student got this many detentions?
 At some point didn't occur to her that maybe she should stop 
screwing up if she didn't like detention? Is this girl so deluded into
 believing that she is the center of the universe and that all things
 exist to serve her, that she has no grasp of the function of the 
world around her?<<

 I do agree with this sentiment and all the other comments about what 
exactly constitutes "detention" as defined by the European 
Convention. I also do think that this girl had been deliberately 
defying school authority, and suffered the penalty ...detention. 

There is though a secondary issue. Whilst to me, this legal case is, 
or certainly should be farcical, it does underline a problem that we 
have with our school systems. Quite simply, many kids are alienated 
by them and ever so gradually drop out. If the number of detentions 
that this girl has been given is unusual, then perhaps the school 
should be looking at alternative means of dealing with her behaviour -
 working with her parents, rather than in confrontation against them. 
It does seem that schools have very little ammunition to deal with 
errant children, little time and often get little support from the 
parents. Yet, the sad result is that many kids are then failed by the 
system that is supposedly for their benefit.

I wonder how many of you have been fundamentally "shaped" by your 
school experiences? I am certain that I was. I was deemed to be 
a "chatterbox". Through both primary and secondary school I was 
forced to move desk. Sometimes I was simply moved away from my 
friends, sometimes directly in front of the teacher, and sometimes 
outside the class. This happened too often and for too many years for 
it to be a simple teacher/pupil personality clash, yet with some 
teachers I never got moved and never got told off. But, I am equally 
sure that nothing positive was achieved. I did well at school, my 
friends were mostly high achievers, so I was hardly stopping anyone 
from working. Once moved, I was often so annoyed and humiliated that 
I did no work. I developed a strong sense of injustice, and became 
quietly rebellious, organising strikes and other pointless 
confrontations. I do believe that if I had been dealt with 
differently, it could have saved me alot of heartache. Now, I veer 
between being very quiet and non-stop talking, a trait I am sure, 
developed as a result of my school experience.

I was perhaps lucky as I did still benefit from my education, but how 
many little rebels, simply turn away from school and leave without 
qualifications and perhaps worse still a feeling of alienation from 
authority? I would like to think that there is a way of harnessing 
this teenage desire for independence and rebellion rather than just 
alienation.

Ali







From timregan at microsoft.com  Thu Jan  2 18:58:50 2003
From: timregan at microsoft.com (Tim Regan <timregan@microsoft.com>)
Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 18:58:50 -0000
Subject: Kids' house aspirations
Message-ID: <av225a+413n@eGroups.com>

Hi All,

Happy New Year.

As a stocking filler (sorry, I forget the US term) I wrapped a 
packet of Bertie Bott's Every Flavored Bean for each of my two kids 
and attached a note in McGonagall's pen saying happy Christmas and 
that she's looking forward to welcoming them into Gryffindor when 
they turn eleven.

Much to my surprise, my nine year old daughter Megan looked up at me 
and said "But I'm going to be in Ravenclaw".

What houses do your kids want to be in (if you've got kids)?


Cheers,


Dumbledad.





From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca  Thu Jan  2 22:35:06 2003
From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (lucky_kari <lucky_kari@yahoo.ca>)
Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 22:35:06 -0000
Subject: Shipping the Trio and Dissing the Slyths
In-Reply-To: <aul75g+nevi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <av2eqq+sm8u@eGroups.com>

R/Hr shipper who detests Fred and George here,

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "susannahlm <susannahlm at y...>"
<susannahlm at y...> wrote:
> Hi, just a quick thought here.
>Some posters said that H/H'ers tend to go softer on 
> the Slyths, for example. 

<looks at Derannimer incredulously> 

They do? 

I had thought the exact opposite.

I suppose they meant Draco.

Yes, R/Hrs do tend to dislike Draco a lot more. 

But Slyths in general? There may not be a correlation, but I had, as I
mentioned, always thought that R/Hers tended to be much more
pro-Slyth. This holds true 100% among my friends, family, and
acquaitances, which may explain why I made that assumption. 

Eileen




From Lord1912 at juno.com  Thu Jan  2 23:27:36 2003
From: Lord1912 at juno.com (lord1912 <Lord1912@juno.com>)
Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 23:27:36 -0000
Subject: Kids' house aspirations
In-Reply-To: <av225a+413n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <av2ht8+s81n@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Tim Regan <timregan at m...>" 
<timregan at m...> wrote:
> Hi All,
> 
> Happy New Year.
> 
> As a stocking filler (sorry, I forget the US term) 

Stocking stuffer.




I wrapped a 
> packet of Bertie Bott's Every Flavored Bean for each of my two 
kids 
> and attached a note in McGonagall's pen saying happy Christmas and 
> that she's looking forward to welcoming them into Gryffindor when 
> they turn eleven.
> 
> Much to my surprise, my nine year old daughter Megan looked up at 
me 
> and said "But I'm going to be in Ravenclaw".
> 
> What houses do your kids want to be in (if you've got kids)?
> 

I don't know about kids, but I've taken the storting test on a few 
different websites, and I came out as Slytherin every time.   ;-)

Lady Tavington-Malfoy




From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk  Thu Jan  2 23:29:56 2003
From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte)
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 23:29:56 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Kids' house aspirations
References: <av2ht8+s81n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3E14CB74.000001.79971@monica>



-------Original Message-------

From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
Date: 02 January 2003 23:27:43
To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Kids' house aspirations

I wrapped a 
> packet of Bertie Bott's Every Flavored Bean for each of my two 
kids 
> and attached a note in McGonagall's pen saying happy Christmas and 
> that she's looking forward to welcoming them into Gryffindor when 
> they turn eleven.
> 
> Much to my surprise, my nine year old daughter Megan looked up at 
me 
> and said "But I'm going to be in Ravenclaw".
> 
> What houses do your kids want to be in (if you've got kids)?
>
 I don't know what house she wants to be in but my niece is going to be a
Slytherin, I guarantee it. I was talking to her father about my 5000 word
essay due in in a week or so and my diss that I haev to write over the
summer and she wanted to know why if the dissertation was supposed to be
10000 words I couldn't just write the essay out twice! She is going to go
far :) Unfortunately my other niece and nephew are too young for me to start
brainwashing (sorry I mean educating) them in thew superiority of Slytherins
since they're only 2 1/2

K



From sushi at societyhappens.com  Thu Jan  2 23:37:52 2003
From: sushi at societyhappens.com (Sushi)
Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 17:37:52 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Kids' house aspirations
In-Reply-To: <3E14CB74.000001.79971@monica>
References: <av2ht8+s81n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030102173645.0266c820@mail.societyhappens.com>


>Unfortunately my other niece and nephew are too young for me to start
>brainwashing (sorry I mean educating) them in thew superiority of Slytherins
>since they're only 2 1/2

         Nah, it's never too early to start teaching kids that, while 
everyone harps on bravery, it's the cunning ones that write the history 
books. ;)

Sushi, too Slytherin for her own good


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From urbana at charter.net  Fri Jan  3 02:51:50 2003
From: urbana at charter.net (Anne <urbana@charter.net>)
Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 02:51:50 -0000
Subject: Kids' house aspirations
In-Reply-To: <av225a+413n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <av2ts6+f59q@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Tim Regan <timregan at m...>" 
<timregan at m...> wrote:
> Hi All,
> 
> Happy New Year.
> 
> As a stocking filler (sorry, I forget the US term) I wrapped a 
> packet of Bertie Bott's Every Flavored Bean for each of my two kids

My daughter got a little bag of Bertie Botts for Christmas too (from 
Santa). We still refuse to eat some of the flavors (dirt, black 
pepper and vomit, among others).
 
> and attached a note in McGonagall's pen saying happy Christmas and 
> that she's looking forward to welcoming them into Gryffindor when 
> they turn eleven.
> 
> Much to my surprise, my nine year old daughter Megan looked up at 
me 
> and said "But I'm going to be in Ravenclaw".
> 
> What houses do your kids want to be in (if you've got kids)?

I'm 99.44% sure my daughter would say Gryffindor. She thinks Harry, 
Hermione and Ron are the greatest things since sliced bread. She also 
loves the whole Weasley family and Harry's dorm-mates.

Anne U
(would like to be in Gryffindor but would probably be sorted into 
Hufflepuff)






From chrisnlorrie at yahoo.com  Fri Jan  3 04:03:40 2003
From: chrisnlorrie at yahoo.com (alora <chrisnlorrie@yahoo.com>)
Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 04:03:40 -0000
Subject: Kids' house aspirations
In-Reply-To: <av225a+413n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <av322t+mphb@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Tim Regan <timregan at m...>" 
<timregan at m...> wrote:
> Hi All,
> 
> Happy New Year.
> 
> As a stocking filler (sorry, I forget the US term) I wrapped a 
> packet of Bertie Bott's Every Flavored Bean for each of my two 
kids 
> and attached a note in McGonagall's pen saying happy Christmas and 
> that she's looking forward to welcoming them into Gryffindor when 
> they turn eleven.

Cool!  I wish I had thought to do that to my kids' bags of BB's.  I 
got ahold of a vomit one while walking through the mall and I 
thought I was going to be sick!  It was terrible.  When I opened my 
kids' bags, I could smell the vomit one - eeewww.  We found it and 
threw it out, hehe.  Nasty.


> Much to my surprise, my nine year old daughter Megan looked up at 
me 
> and said "But I'm going to be in Ravenclaw".
> 
> What houses do your kids want to be in (if you've got kids)?

I have four children that love HP.  The oldest one (he'll be 11 
tomorrow) prefers Slytherin.  That just floored me, but I don't know 
why.  He's the sneakiest one in the house and he's very good at 
debating with me on any subject from chores to the "why do I need to 
do this?  I won't use this EVER in my life."  We go 'round 
and 'round.  The second son wants to be a Gryffindor - he loves 
Harry, has a Harry wand and robe and wishes he had dark hair (his is 
dishwater blonde).  The third son is almost 7, and he gets confused 
because he has two older brothers he looks up to and he doesn't know 
which house he likes, Gryffindor or Slytherin.  He ends up 
frustrated when they are all playing Harry Potter, and it doesn't 
help when your older brothers keep saying, "You HAVE to pick a 
house, hurry up or I'm not playing!!"  Then I have a 3 year old 
daughter that honestly believes she is Hermione.  She runs around 
with a Hermione wand screeching, "Wingardium Leviosa!"  Or she will 
say, "It's Le-vi-O-sa, not Le-vi-o-SA."  She even does the accent!  
I think it's hilarious.  

As for me, I am a Hufflepuff all the way.  I figured I was, and 
multiple online sortings have only proved that ;).  

Alora, who's thinking that you all are probably thinking I have too 
many kids!  :D 





From rvotaw at i-55.com  Fri Jan  3 04:32:16 2003
From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw)
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 22:32:16 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Kids' house aspirations/ Anybody bored?
References: <av322t+mphb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <008001c2b2e1$18f43b00$8fa2cdd1@RVotaw>


> What houses do your kids want to be in (if you've got kids)?

Well, I haven't got kids, but I'd either be in Gryffindor or Ravenclaw.  I'd always thought I was a Ravenclaw through and through, but every time I take one of those online things I end up in Gryffindor.  And on the personality test I'm Harry Potter.  I thought it was rigged, so I had a few friends take it and they all turned up different.  Who knows.  I'd be happy just to go to Hogwarts at all. :)

Also, if anybody gets really bored and has nothing to do, I've just finished rearranging my Harry Potter Legos and action figures.  Yes, I take them out of the packs and set them up.  So much for collectability, but they're so cute.  Anyway, I've got pictures here:

http://www.shutterfly.com/view/pictures.jsp?aid=67b0de21b3470a6dc47f

Richelle




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From sniggip at hotmail.com  Fri Jan  3 05:40:34 2003
From: sniggip at hotmail.com (gtpiggins <sniggip@hotmail.com>)
Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 05:40:34 -0000
Subject: Kids' house aspirations
In-Reply-To: <av322t+mphb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <av37oi+fgi0@eGroups.com>

Oh, you definetly don't have too many kids! I have 4 brothers...3 
older and one younger. My mom and dad have 6 and 7 siblings 
respectively. Four is nothing! Four is great! You should have 
another! Just kiddin'.

I just have to say your daughter sounds so completely cute! *Erin 
huggles her indirectly*

I don't have any kids, being 15 and all, but I bet all of my kids 
would end up being Ravenclaws. Maybe Gryffindor, but none of my kids 
would end up in Slytherin, unless they were a freak of nature, and 
they'd all be tremendously smart, having me for a mother.

I'm torn between Ravenclaw and Gryffindor, I have no clue which I 
would be sorted into...I have no prefence, but it frustrates me that 
I don't know! BAH! If only it were all real...*Erin breaks down in 
tears*

~~ErinElizabethPiggins




From kristilynn5 at yahoo.com  Fri Jan  3 06:18:33 2003
From: kristilynn5 at yahoo.com (Kristi Smith)
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 22:18:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Kids' house aspirations
In-Reply-To: <av322t+mphb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20030103061833.61321.qmail@web40306.mail.yahoo.com>


It's okay Alora!  I have 6, 5 girls and 1 boy. Three of them prefer Gyffindor, my oldest, who is 12, prefers Slytherin, and my 6 year-old is a Hufflepuff.  I've been sorted into Ravenclaw and Gryffindor, so either would be fine with me! :D
Kristi, who knows everyone thinks I have too many kids, but I had to keep trying for that little boy!! ; )
 "alora <chrisnlorrie at yahoo.com>" <chrisnlorrie at yahoo.com> wrote:--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Tim Regan <timregan at m...>" 
<timregan at m...> wrote:
> Hi All,
> 
> Happy New Year.
> 
> As a stocking filler (sorry, I forget the US term) I wrapped a 
> packet of Bertie Bott's Every Flavored Bean for each of my two 
kids 
> and attached a note in McGonagall's pen saying happy Christmas and 
> that she's looking forward to welcoming them into Gryffindor when 
> they turn eleven.

Cool!  I wish I had thought to do that to my kids' bags of BB's.  I 
got ahold of a vomit one while walking through the mall and I 
thought I was going to be sick!  It was terrible.  When I opened my 
kids' bags, I could smell the vomit one - eeewww.  We found it and 
threw it out, hehe.  Nasty.


> Much to my surprise, my nine year old daughter Megan looked up at 
me 
> and said "But I'm going to be in Ravenclaw".
> 
> What houses do your kids want to be in (if you've got kids)?

I have four children that love HP.  The oldest one (he'll be 11 
tomorrow) prefers Slytherin.  That just floored me, but I don't know 
why.  He's the sneakiest one in the house and he's very good at 
debating with me on any subject from chores to the "why do I need to 
do this?  I won't use this EVER in my life."  We go 'round 
and 'round.  The second son wants to be a Gryffindor - he loves 
Harry, has a Harry wand and robe and wishes he had dark hair (his is 
dishwater blonde).  The third son is almost 7, and he gets confused 
because he has two older brothers he looks up to and he doesn't know 
which house he likes, Gryffindor or Slytherin.  He ends up 
frustrated when they are all playing Harry Potter, and it doesn't 
help when your older brothers keep saying, "You HAVE to pick a 
house, hurry up or I'm not playing!!"  Then I have a 3 year old 
daughter that honestly believes she is Hermione.  She runs around 
with a Hermione wand screeching, "Wingardium Leviosa!"  Or she will 
say, "It's Le-vi-O-sa, not Le-vi-o-SA."  She even does the accent!  
I think it's hilarious.  

As for me, I am a Hufflepuff all the way.  I figured I was, and 
multiple online sortings have only proved that ;).  

Alora, who's thinking that you all are probably thinking I have too 
many kids!  :D 



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From foxmoth at qnet.com  Fri Jan  3 14:06:29 2003
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999 <foxmoth@qnet.com>)
Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 14:06:29 -0000
Subject: Shipping the Trio and the Twins
In-Reply-To: <aul75g+nevi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <av45d5+4rgb@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "susannahlm 
<susannahlm at y...>" <susannahlm at y...> wrote:
. I think that this "split opinion" in the 
> fandom, if true, is kind of an interesting idea, and was 
wondering: 
> In re the old "Twins=Bullies" dispute on the main list, how do 
R/H  types tend to view Fred and George? Bullies, or harmless 
fun-lovers? 
> How about H/H? 

It could be that R/H types are more sympathetic to  characters 
who display  a higher need for stimulation.  OTOH, there are 
those who  think tranquillity is the soul of  bliss. They can't 
understand what Ron and Hermione get out of bickering   and 
find Percy's attempts to enforce peace and quiet more 
sympathetic than The Twins'  attempts to enforce chaos.

Pippin
who will ship H/H when Harry expresses a desire for Hermione 
to stop arguing with Ron and argue with him instead. <g>




From kristilynn5 at yahoo.com  Fri Jan  3 15:06:42 2003
From: kristilynn5 at yahoo.com (Kristi Smith)
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 07:06:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] HP scarves
In-Reply-To: <p05001900ba3678e94907@[10.0.1.3]>
Message-ID: <20030103150642.96060.qmail@web40302.mail.yahoo.com>


Thanks so much to all who responded to my knitting needs!  I am knitting a Ravenclaw scarf at the moment, but I am waiting for the circular needles to arrive by mail.  I have orders in from my kids for a Gryffindor and a Slytherin scarf as well.  I am finding that I really enjoy this new hobby.  So far so good! : ) 
Kristi

 Rose Woofenden <rosewoof at earthlink.net> wrote:

The needle size should depend on the size of yarn you have. If you've 
got a few different sizes, knit a swatch on a few different sizes, 
and see which you like better. Different needle sizes will give a 
different effect. If you have to go out and buy needles, then ask the 
people at your yarn/craft store, and they should be able to look at 
your yarn and tell you what size to use.

If you are doing a tube, use circular needles, it makes everything a 
whole lot easier. You will need to keep track of the spot where you 
are going to switch colors though, so that you do it on the same 
stitches. I suggest taking a small rubber "O ring" (you can get them 
at a hardware store for $.3o ish) and leaving it on your needles 
between the two stitches.

As far as changing colors, all you've gotta do is stop knitting with 
one color, and pick up yarn of the other color. Break the first color 
off, leaving 3-4 inches to tie it off. (Tie off by running the yarn 
through the back of some stitches.) Then knit with the other color 
until you've done the amount you want, and  switch back to the other 
one.

Hope this helps, it's hard to describe over e-mail...


>I am trying my hand at knitting, and I have a question.  I am
>knitting a scarf with circular needles so it will make a tube, but I
>am confused about thesize of needle I should use and how to switch
>colors.  I started one with straight needles, but Idon't think I
>switched colors correctly.  Are their any avid knitters out there who
>could help me?

________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________

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Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying!

Is your message...
An announcement of merchandise, news etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements.
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From karnasaur at yahoo.com  Fri Jan  3 15:24:53 2003
From: karnasaur at yahoo.com (Kristjan Arnason)
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 07:24:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: The Sorting Hat as a teaching method
In-Reply-To: <1041593058.828.47025.m12@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20030103152453.2249.qmail@web10411.mail.yahoo.com>

Hi,

How to put this....

I'm a Canadian who teaches English in Korea.  I had a
class of mostly 11 year olds.  One day I decided to
try something different with them.  I took them all to
the computer room and went to the Warner Brothers
harry Potter site, and had them all take the Sorting
Hat test.  With the exception of the two best students
in the class (there were 8 students total) they all
did the test in Korean.  It has language options.

Anyhow,  the test put two students into each house.  I
had taken the test a month earlier and had been
(rightly) sorted into Slytherin.  Amazement followed. 
I played the role of Professor Snape, and they all
played their houses perfectly.  I picked on the
Gryffindors (but not too cruelly) and shamelessly
favoured the Slytherins, but also made sure the Huffs
and the Raves had a chance too.  I'd give and remove
points for correct and incorrect answers, you see.

The thing is, the kids started to assume personalities
appropiate to their houses.  The Raves were brainy. 
The Slyths, who included the best student in the
class, kissed up to me.  The Gryffindors fought with
me, and had to go an extra mile to get any credit. 
The Hufflepuffs were...Hufflepuffs.

Don't get me wrong.  I made sure everyone had a chance
to win.  When I let the G's win I'd stomp about as
Snape would surely do.  When my S's won, as they
usually did (thanks to Claudia), I'd give them extra
stickers and a big smile.  When H or R won I'd skowl
at my Slytherins for failing me, and curse the
Gryffindors.  The game was slightly rigged...I made
sure that even the Hufflepuffs had a victory.  They
were quite happy.

The kids loved it.  I did too.  I'm at a different
school now, and I don't think I'll use the "Sorting
Hat" again.  But it was fun.

Anyway,  the Sorting Hat can be used as a teaching
instrument.  Dividing this one class like that made
the lessons very interesting.

Professional Teachers and Child Psychologists may now
flame me.

Kris

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From hiddenhibiscus at yahoo.com  Fri Jan  3 18:55:06 2003
From: hiddenhibiscus at yahoo.com (hiddenhibiscus <hiddenhibiscus@yahoo.com>)
Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 18:55:06 -0000
Subject: Kids' house aspirations
In-Reply-To: <av225a+413n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <av4maa+ln0i@eGroups.com>

Ahhhh, isn't it fun to peg the little ones?  Alas, since mine are 6, 
4, and 18 mos., I get the pleasure of doing so.  I'd say my dd (6) is 
Ravenclaw (as am I), my 4 year old ds is clearly Slytherin (sneaky 
and ambitious), and my 18 mo. ds is a Gryffindor like my husband.

Yes, I'm sure they may come up with their own interpretations as they 
get older, but my husband and I are addicted enough to HP to have 
already discussed this and come to these conclusions.

Happy New Year!
Hibiscus




From bloubet at incanmonkey.com  Fri Jan  3 21:28:53 2003
From: bloubet at incanmonkey.com (bloubet at incanmonkey.com)
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 14:28:53 -0700 (MST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Kids' house aspirations; BBBeans
In-Reply-To: <1041593058.828.47025.m12@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <1041629332.1474@incanmonkey.com>

No kids here, either, but the 4 or 5 times I've been sorted, it's always into Gryffindor. Is there a list somewhere of the sorting hats/personality tests online? I'd love to check them all out.

Too many kids? Nah. Just find a friend who's not having any and say that two of yours count as theirs. <grin> I have a friend in California and another in Dallas who each have four, so one of each of theirs is mine. They have a response for people who think they have "too many", and I have surrogate children they're raising for me. Works for us. <grin>

I took boxes of Bertie Bott's with me to the movies. The first time I didn't think to pick out the nasty ones first, in the light. Yuck. Double yuck. <grin> After that, I picked out the ones I didn't want first. Lost half a box or so each time, but made for a much better movie experience. (For those not brave enough to try, by the way, Black Pepper, Sardine, and Grass aren't TOO bad... <grin>)

bel



From thalia at aokp.org  Fri Jan  3 21:32:11 2003
From: thalia at aokp.org (chanteuse thalia chaunacy)
Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 13:32:11 -0800
Subject: Heavy Analyses
In-Reply-To: <aujl9h+305d@eGroups.com>
References: <aug3sh+prg1@eGroups.com> <aujl9h+305d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <WorldClient-F200301031332.AA32110047@aokp.org>

whoa.

i'm all for reader interpretation

but

she meant nothing of the sort.

how bout--

harry potter is an appetizer compared to the hopelessly heavy terrible 
adult bullshitty political real world.

that's why we read fantasy, isn't it?

she was just trying to make people smile.

apologies,
thalia




From HebrideanBlack2002 at hotmail.com  Fri Jan  3 21:53:57 2003
From: HebrideanBlack2002 at hotmail.com (Wendy St. John)
Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 21:53:57 +0000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Kids' house aspirations
Message-ID: <F165lDRe3e2boNDvSE300005300@hotmail.com>

Hiya, everyone,

Dumbledad asked what Houses, if any, our kids aspire to . . .

Well, my four-year-old son, Connor, *definitely* wants to go into Ravenclaw. 
He's very adamant, and talks about it regularly. He is also very much 
looking forward to having Professor Snape teach him to make potions. He even 
has a small plastic cauldron (Halloween decoration) that he plays with. 
Fortunately, as Connor looks quite a bit like a very young Tom Felton, I am 
hopeful that Snape might actually be nice to him in class. <G>

He will also willingly act as a Sorting Hat when asked, and is surprisingly 
astute in his assessments  . . . he's got me in Gryffindor, his dad in 
Hufflepuff, and his best friend and best friend's dad in Slytherin (which is 
exactly where I'd put all of us if I were the Sorting Hat).

Before anyone asks, I've NOT read the books to Connor, and don't plan to for 
at least a few more years. He's seen the first movie after it came out on 
video, but didn't really like it so he's not watched it again. So how does 
he know all this stuff about the Potterverse? From his totally obsessed 
mummy, of course! <G> I guess I really must talk about it *a lot*! Well, he 
does have the Legos and the Hogwarts playset, and a vast assortment of plush 
Hedwig toys. All the toys are *his*, honest. Really. Why are you all looking 
at me with those sceptical looks on your faces?!? <GGG>

Wendy

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From HebrideanBlack2002 at hotmail.com  Fri Jan  3 22:02:54 2003
From: HebrideanBlack2002 at hotmail.com (Wendy St. John)
Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 22:02:54 +0000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Kids' house aspirations
Message-ID: <F175TZJIrAga6ug14SS00022a62@hotmail.com>

Alora wrote:

>Then I have a 3 year old daughter that honestly believes she is >Hermione.  
>She runs around with a Hermione wand >screeching, "Wingardium Leviosa!"  Or 
>she will say, "It's Le-vi-O-sa, >not Le-vi-o-SA."  She even does the 
>accent! I think it's hilarious.

LOL! That's fantastic! My son (aged 4) likes to cast "Petrificus Totalus." 
He has the swish and flick down pretty well, too. I've been trying to teach 
him Lumos and a couple of others, but so far he still prefers Petrificus. 
Probably because he really enjoys making Mummy freeze like a board and fall 
over backwards! <G>

:-)
Wendy


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From urbana at charter.net  Sat Jan  4 01:14:08 2003
From: urbana at charter.net (Anne <urbana@charter.net>)
Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 01:14:08 -0000
Subject: Kids' house aspirations
In-Reply-To: <F175TZJIrAga6ug14SS00022a62@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <av5ch0+80tq@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Wendy St. John" 
<HebrideanBlack2002 at h...> wrote:
> Alora wrote:
> 
> >Then I have a 3 year old daughter that honestly believes she is 
>Hermione.  
> >She runs around with a Hermione wand >screeching, "Wingardium 
Leviosa!"  Or 
> >she will say, "It's Le-vi-O-sa, >not Le-vi-o-SA."  She even does 
the 
> >accent! I think it's hilarious.
> 
> LOL! That's fantastic! My son (aged 4) likes to cast "Petrificus 
Totalus." 
> He has the swish and flick down pretty well, too. I've been trying 
to teach 
> him Lumos and a couple of others, but so far he still prefers 
Petrificus. 
> Probably because he really enjoys making Mummy freeze like a board 
and fall 
> over backwards! <G>
> 
> :-)
> Wendy
> 

My daughter (let's posit that I only have one child, and she's 6), 
frequently walks around the house saying "Lumos!" to the electric 
lights. She also does a pretty mean SWISH! and flick and Win-GAR-dium 
Le-vi-OHH-sa too :-)

And I'm totally shocked. She just told me she would want to be in 
Slytherin "because I like snakes". So much for pegging her for a 
Gryffindor.

Anne U
(and here I thought she was a bit sweet on Harry/Daniel ;-)





From lilac_bearry at yahoo.com  Sat Jan  4 03:12:11 2003
From: lilac_bearry at yahoo.com (Lilac)
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 19:12:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Shipping the Trio...Twins, Percy, Draco
Message-ID: <20030104031211.24159.qmail@web40308.mail.yahoo.com>


R/H shipper here who adores the twins AND Percy.  In fact, Percy has a special place in my heart, especially after he pulled Ron from the lake after the second task. 

As for Draco...eh...not so much.  I would rather enjoy a really, really bad Draco, much like Lucius.  Then he can really give Harry et al a run for their money, and not just call them names while surrounded by his cronies.  

Can't say I've been much of a Slytherin fan either.  The only one I really have some sympathy for is Snape.  The rest of the Slytherins are pretty 2 dimensional, including Draco, and I would have to find out more about them character-wise to find any redeeming qualities.  I don't mind Redeemed!Draco, but not when he takes the place of Ron in the trio (fan-fic world).  If that's the case, I'd take Redeemed!Ron anyday, since some people believe he will turn evil.  I personally don't, but hey, that's just me. 

~Lilac, who is proud to be in the company of Pippin, Eileen and Lady V. as R/Hers, and has always wondered why the rest of the R/Hers seem to be pretty quiet on HPFGU (maybe that's just my impression)...         

 



 

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

"Professor, can you show me that blocking thing again?"

Lockhart cuffed Harry merrily on the shoulder.  "Just do what I did, Harry!"

"What, drop my wand?"

 --Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*



---------------------------------
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From dradamsapple at yahoo.com  Sat Jan  4 05:34:22 2003
From: dradamsapple at yahoo.com (dradamsapple <dradamsapple@yahoo.com>)
Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 05:34:22 -0000
Subject: TOYS!!
In-Reply-To: <F165lDRe3e2boNDvSE300005300@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <av5rou+92ca@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Wendy St. John" 
<HebrideanBlack2002 at h...> wrote:
> Hiya, everyone,
> 
Well, he 
> does have the Legos and the Hogwarts playset, and a vast assortment 
of plush 
> Hedwig toys. All the toys are *his*, honest. Really. Why are you 
all looking 
> at me with those sceptical looks on your faces?!? <GGG>
> 
> Wendy
> 


Wendy,

I was so excited this fall when I started shopping for christmas 
early 'cause I got all the *good* HP action figures (or at least, I 
thought) for my HP obsessed neices and nephews, and my own kids too 
(I got three; my oldest boy, 12; my only girl, 9, and my youngest 
boy, or as my husband calls him, "the five year old bachelor" (that's 
becuause he walks around the house barefoot, no shirt, making rude 
noises,  . . . OH MY!! I sound like a terrible mom!! But seriously, I 
think he's going to be a comedian when he grows up!) 
 
ANYHOW, I was devestated when they all told me that they really 
didn't want HP stuff!!  WHAT??!! But, I got the last Ginny, and the 
last Lockhart, and the Flying Ford Anglia is really cool! and I found 
a Gryffindor sword that makes noises!! :(
Well, needless to say, I had to bring . . . all . . . 
that . . .stuff . . . BACK!!  Waaahh!! :-( 

(or else, I would have been auctioning it off on ebay by now . . .)

Like I said before in an earlier post, what fun is it if your kids 
don't like the same toys you do? 

Anna . . .  (who wants  the month of April to hurry so she can try 
again with the HP toys for the five year olds' birthday!)

Oh, and you should really go check out Richelles' collection of Legos 
and other *collectibles* here,

http://www.shutterfly.com/view/pictures.jsp?aid=67b0de21b3470a6dc47f

Happy viewing!

Anna . . .
> _________________________________________________________________
> STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* 
> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail




From rvotaw at i-55.com  Sat Jan  4 06:37:33 2003
From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw)
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 00:37:33 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] TOYS!!
References: <av5rou+92ca@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <003301c2b3bb$c3ff4d20$0aa0cdd1@RVotaw>

Anna writes:

> a Gryffindor sword that makes noises!! :(
> Well, needless to say, I had to bring . . . all . . . 
> that . . .stuff . . . BACK!!  Waaahh!! :-( 

WHAT!!!!  You found the sword?!?!  Where?  When? How much? (Eh, who cares how much!)

>(or else, I would have been auctioning it off on ebay by now . . .)

Yeah, to me. :)  I'm currently trying to refrain from bidding on the Gryffindor swords and new action figures (with cloth robes) by telling myself they'll be around here soon.  But so far no luck.

> Like I said before in an earlier post, what fun is it if your kids 
> don't like the same toys you do? 

Better yet, I just skipped the kids and went straight for the toys.  I suppose I always took that "I don't want to grow up, cause if I did, I couldn't be a Toys R Us kid" thing literally. :)

> Oh, and you should really go check out Richelles' collection of Legos 
> and other *collectibles* here,
>
> http://www.shutterfly.com/view/pictures.jsp?aid=67b0de21b3470a6dc47f

Yes, good use of the word "collectibles."  Five points for Gryffindor.  I most certainly do not have a room full of toys.  No, absolutely not.  Collectibles. (so what if taking them out of the package eliminates that, it's still the same item, isn't it?  I don't plan to sell them anyway, so I can tell myself whatever I want.)

Richelle


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From dianasdolls at yahoo.com  Sat Jan  4 08:08:14 2003
From: dianasdolls at yahoo.com (Diana Lucas)
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 00:08:14 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Which house would you be in?
Message-ID: <20030104080814.91237.qmail@web40203.mail.yahoo.com>

The thread of which house we'd be in if this were all
real [if only...sigh].  :D

Every single sorting test I've taken online and even
in magazines has placed me in Gryffindor.  My
9-year-old son is also placed in Gryffindor every time
as well.  He even tried to rig one sorting to see if
he ended up in Slytherin, but couldn't do it!  LOL

My husband ends up in Hufflepuff, which is a great
house, too, of course.  

My daughter is only 2 and loves Harry Potter!  She
goes around saying "Harry Potter" and when she sees
Daniel Radcliffe on TV or on a magazine she points at
him and calls him "Harry".  

I gave my son a HUGE box of Harry Potter candy this
Christmas, including Bertie Bott's Beans - they are
something else, aren't they?  A lot of fun, if you are
brave...<g>  I've eaten the vomit one, black pepper,
dirt, ear wax and several others.  I actually don't
mind the dirt and ear wax beans.  The vomit is
horrendous.   I'm thinking of having some fun at my
son's 10th birthday party this coming May as he wants
a Harry Potter themed birthday party.  I might buy
some Bertie Bott's beans and tempt the kids attending
with prizes if they eat certain flavors.  <beg>
My favorite is Honeyduke's Best Chocolate and my
husband's favorite is the Sherbert Lemons.  My son
prefers the Chocolate Frogs.   

Diana

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From Lord1912 at juno.com  Sat Jan  4 14:30:05 2003
From: Lord1912 at juno.com (lord1912 <Lord1912@juno.com>)
Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 14:30:05 -0000
Subject: Which house would you be in?
In-Reply-To: <20030104080814.91237.qmail@web40203.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <av6r5d+p3t7@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Diana Lucas 
<dianasdolls at y...> wrote:
> The thread of which house we'd be in if this were all
> real [if only...sigh].  :D
> 
> Every single sorting test I've taken online and even
> in magazines has placed me in Gryffindor.  My
> 9-year-old son is also placed in Gryffindor every time
> as well.  He even tried to rig one sorting to see if
> he ended up in Slytherin, but couldn't do it!  LOL
> 
> My husband ends up in Hufflepuff, which is a great
> house, too, of course.  


I end up as a Slytherin every time....

Lady Tavington-Malfoy




From blessedbrian at yahoo.com  Sat Jan  4 16:15:27 2003
From: blessedbrian at yahoo.com (Brian Cordova <blessedbrian@yahoo.com>)
Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 16:15:27 -0000
Subject: Which house would you be in?
In-Reply-To: <av6r5d+p3t7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <av71av+98p1@eGroups.com>

> 
> I end up as a Slytherin every time....
> 
> Lady Tavington-Malfoy

  Me too, even though I always quote Harry ("Not Slytherin!  Not 
Slytherin!").

  Brian:-) 




From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com  Sat Jan  4 16:36:28 2003
From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 11:36:28 EST
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Which house would you be in?
Message-ID: <1aa.e3b862d.2b48678c@aol.com>

In a message dated 1/4/2003 11:17:23 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
blessedbrian at yahoo.com writes:


> > 
> > I end up as a Slytherin every time....
> > 
> > Lady Tavington-Malfoy
> 
>   Me too, even though I always quote Harry ("Not Slytherin!  Not 
> Slytherin!").

Lady Tavington-Malfoy, Love the name! *huge Jason Isaacs lover* 

Same here. Being a villian lover, I like being put in Slytherin. Though I'm 
probably better suited for Ravenclaw =P 

~Cassie~ 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





From linkajarjarbinks at yahoo.com  Sat Jan  4 17:03:49 2003
From: linkajarjarbinks at yahoo.com (Matilda Trelawney)
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 09:03:49 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Which house would you be in?
In-Reply-To: <20030104080814.91237.qmail@web40203.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20030104170349.28592.qmail@web12808.mail.yahoo.com>


 I know! It seems as if everyone ends up in Gryffindor on the online tests. How ironic is that?  I know how your son feels, I always wish that I was put in Slytherin, because let's face it, Slytherin is a whole lot better than Goody-two-shoes Gryffindor! I would also prefer Ravenclaw. 
 Diana Lucas <dianasdolls at yahoo.com> wrote:The thread of which house we'd be in if this were all
real [if only...sigh].  :D

Every single sorting test I've taken online and even
in magazines has placed me in Gryffindor.  My
9-year-old son is also placed in Gryffindor every time
as well.  He even tried to rig one sorting to see if
he ended up in Slytherin, but couldn't do it!  LOL

My husband ends up in Hufflepuff, which is a great
house, too, of course.  

My daughter is only 2 and loves Harry Potter!  She
goes around saying "Harry Potter" and when she sees
Daniel Radcliffe on TV or on a magazine she points at
him and calls him "Harry".  

I gave my son a HUGE box of Harry Potter candy this
Christmas, including Bertie Bott's Beans - they are
something else, aren't they?  A lot of fun, if you are
brave...<g>  I've eaten the vomit one, black pepper,
dirt, ear wax and several others.  I actually don't
mind the dirt and ear wax beans.  The vomit is
horrendous.   I'm thinking of having some fun at my
son's 10th birthday party this coming May as he wants
a Harry Potter themed birthday party.  I might buy
some Bertie Bott's beans and tempt the kids attending
with prizes if they eat certain flavors.  <beg>
My favorite is Honeyduke's Best Chocolate and my
husband's favorite is the Sherbert Lemons.  My son
prefers the Chocolate Frogs.   

Diana

__________________________________________________
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From dradamsapple at yahoo.com  Sat Jan  4 18:50:56 2003
From: dradamsapple at yahoo.com (dradamsapple <dradamsapple@yahoo.com>)
Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 18:50:56 -0000
Subject: TOYS!!/houses
In-Reply-To: <003301c2b3bb$c3ff4d20$0aa0cdd1@RVotaw>
Message-ID: <av7aeg+10oit@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Richelle Votaw" 
<rvotaw at i...> wrote:
> Anna writes:
> 
> > a Gryffindor sword that makes noises!! :(
> > Well, needless to say, I had to bring . . . all . . . 
> > that . . .stuff . . . BACK!!  Waaahh!! :-( 
> 
> WHAT!!!!  You found the sword?!?!  Where?  When? How much? (Eh, who 
cares how much!)

Believe it or not, the swords were at Toys R Us, in the "markdown" 
section, after christmas.  I couldn't believe it! Cause I bought my 
five year old the Star Wars light saber, and he like that, but after 
we saw CoS, he was climbing on the footstool, with the broom (my 
real, kitchen broom), jumping off, saying "Take that Malfoy!!". I 
think he would have loved the Gryffindor sword.


> > Oh, and you should really go check out Richelles' collection of 
Legos 
> > and other *collectibles* here,
> >
> > http://www.shutterfly.com/view/pictures.jsp?
aid=67b0de21b3470a6dc47f
> 
> Yes, good use of the word "collectibles."  Five points for 
Gryffindor. 
> Richelle


Richelle, how did you know I was a Gryffindor?  
It's funny, reading the *house* threads.  I, too have been sorted into
Gryffindor everytime I try.  Although, I don't feel very brave 
sometimes, especially when confronting my mother-in-law!!

Have fun play...er, "examining" your "collectibles"!! ;-)

Anna . . .






From HebrideanBlack2002 at hotmail.com  Sat Jan  4 19:12:17 2003
From: HebrideanBlack2002 at hotmail.com (Wendy St. John)
Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 19:12:17 +0000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Which house would you be in?
Message-ID: <F1769aZbLAX3cf3ednH000438d9@hotmail.com>

I love this question, as it is something that I have spent *lots and lots* 
of time pondering and worrying about. How sad is that? <G> Actually, I'm 
really rather disturbed about the whole subject, because I'm just not sure 
in what house I really belong! And I really, really want to know!

At Warner Bros website, I used to sort into Gryffindor every time, but the 
last time I tried it put me in Slytherin. Which I know is just wrong. Not 
that I would mind being in Slytherin (my very favourite character is Head of 
House, after all), it's just that I know that I don't have the "do anything 
it takes to succeed" thing going on. I'm not ambitious enough to be in 
Slytherin. Otherwise, I'd be a world-famous entertainer - I sing *much* 
better than Britney, and I'm cute enough (considering what can be done with 
makeup <G>). I've got the talent, just not the drive (nor her sleazy 
wardrobe, thank heavens). <G> Oh, don't get me started on Britney. I think 
she's just plain evil as a role model for young women. But, I digress . . .

Getting back to the subject of Houses, I think it's really between 
Gryffindor and Ravenclaw. At my favourite online sorting hat 
(http://hogwarts.7dragons.net/sortinghat.html), I sort into one of these 
two, depending on how I answer the questions. The thing with this website is 
that when I change my answers, I'm still telling the "truth" either way - 
it's very subjective. So I'm just not sure where I really belong. I'm not 
sure I'm really brave enough to be a true Gryffindor, although most people 
who know me would probably say that I *am.* I've done stuff like move away 
from the country of my birth, which I suppose could be considered 
courageous. And the past several years, whenever I've had a major crisis 
(death of a friend's child, my son breaking his arm are just two that come 
to mind), my husband has coincidentally been out of town, so I know I can 
handle myself in a crisis on my own. Is that courage? Or just 
resourcefulness? Who knows. I've never run into a burning building to save 
someone, but then I've never had the opportunity and *not* done it, either. 
<G>

As for Ravenclaw, while I know I'm smart, I don't really think I'm *clever* 
enough to be a true Ravenclaw. I actually am very much like Hermione - I 
have a really great memory for things I've read or heard, and I always had 
my hand in the air as a student. Plus I know lots of trivia. I'm good at 
coming up with solutions, but not necessarily at noticing there is a problem 
in the first place. But, as Hermione says herself, "Books and cleverness. 
There are more important things." I'm never the one to come up with the 
really clever theories about stuff on the regular list - I'll just take 
someone else's theory and find new things to add to it. So, I'm not sure I 
really belong in Ravenclaw, either.

Hufflepuff . . . No, No, and No. Definitely not me. So, as I carry my keys 
on a Gryffindor keychain, and wear a Gryffindor scarf most of the time, I 
guess that's where I'll claim my affiliation. Anyway, since Hermione did 
sort into Gryffindor, I guess it's pretty safe to say that I could have, 
too. Oh, it would be so much easier if I could just sneak into Dumbledore's 
office and try the darned thing on, just for a minute! <G>

Well, for all those who've made it to the end of this fabulously long-winded 
message, THANKS! And I highly recommend the sorting hat I mention above - 
it's really great, and has lots of questions which seem to be well-thought 
out. I'd love to hear your opinion of it.

:-)
Wendy



_________________________________________________________________
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From urbana at charter.net  Sat Jan  4 19:51:33 2003
From: urbana at charter.net (Anne <urbana@charter.net>)
Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 19:51:33 -0000
Subject: TOYS!!/houses
In-Reply-To: <av7aeg+10oit@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <av7e05+hcco@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "dradamsapple > Richelle, how 
did you know I was a Gryffindor?  
> It's funny, reading the *house* threads.  I, too have been sorted 
into
> Gryffindor everytime I try.  Although, I don't feel very brave 
> sometimes, especially when confronting my mother-in-law!!
> 
> Have fun play...er, "examining" your "collectibles"!! ;-)
> 
> Anna . . .

For Christmas my daughter got Bertie Botts Every Flavor Beans, Harry 
Potter UNO (great card game), the Platform 9 and 3/4 playset and the 
Harry Potter Dicers game (this was in part to counteract all the 
Barbie as Rapunzel stuff that her grandparents gave her). The playset 
is okay, I guess. The UNO game is fun, as are the Dicers; 
unfortunately at 6 years old, she's not old enough to understand the 
intermediate level of the dice game, and the basic level can be kind 
of boring to an adult after a few tries. She absolutely DID NOT want 
any of the action figures OR the Legos. I remember when she saw the 
price on the Lego Hogwarts Castle she audibly gulped:-(

I've actually been sorted into Gryffindor every time I've tried, 
though I've only tried on HarryPotter.com. Perhaps it's because I 
said I'd pick lima beans?? 


Anne U
(still surprised I wasn't put in Hufflepuff!)





From risako at nexusanime.com  Sat Jan  4 20:14:29 2003
From: risako at nexusanime.com (Melissa McCarthy)
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 16:14:29 -0400
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Which house would you be in?
References: <F1769aZbLAX3cf3ednH000438d9@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <00e101c2b42d$eb5d8d60$1ba694d1@vaio>

Hello, all!  I'm new here ^_^  I went on a Sorting Hat spree a little while
ago, and I usually get sorted into Ravenclaw.

> Getting back to the subject of Houses, I think it's really between
> Gryffindor and Ravenclaw. At my favourite online sorting hat
> (http://hogwarts.7dragons.net/sortinghat.html), I sort into one of these
> two, depending on how I answer the questions. The thing with this website
is
> that when I change my answers, I'm still telling the "truth" either way -
> it's very subjective.

That hat always, always, always puts me in Hufflepuff... which I can see.  I
think I'd prefer Ravenclaw, but I might fit better in Hufflepuff.  I change
my answers slightly from day to day (still telling the truth, but some of it
depends on my mood), and once I tried to fix it to *make* it put me in
Ravenclaw, but it wouldn't.  Well, maybe that just means I'm not clever
enough for Ravenclaw after all! <g>

> I highly recommend the sorting hat I mention above -
> it's really great, and has lots of questions which seem to be well-thought
> out. I'd love to hear your opinion of it.

I like the questions too; it's one of the most thorough hats I've found!  I
just wish I could figure it out o_O

Melissa the probably-not-a-Ravenclaw-after-all






From Lord1912 at juno.com  Sat Jan  4 20:23:26 2003
From: Lord1912 at juno.com (lord1912 <Lord1912@juno.com>)
Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 20:23:26 -0000
Subject: Which house would you be in?
In-Reply-To: <1aa.e3b862d.2b48678c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <av7fru+5k3t@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, IAmLordCassandra at a... wrote:
> 
> 
> > > 
> > > I end up as a Slytherin every time....
> > > 
> > > Lady Tavington-Malfoy

> Lady Tavington-Malfoy, Love the name! *huge Jason Isaacs lover* 
> 
> Same here. Being a villian lover, I like being put in Slytherin. 
Though I'm 
> probably better suited for Ravenclaw =P 
> 
> ~Cassie~ 
> 

Ah, I see you picked up on the significance of my handle (Jason 
Isaacs!)   I, too, would probably end up in Ravensclaw as a second 
choice.




From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com  Sat Jan  4 22:44:59 2003
From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 17:44:59 EST
Subject: Fanfiction (Need a favor) 
Message-ID: <88.21f7a1a2.2b48bdeb@aol.com>

Hey. 

I'm writting a fanfic entitled "Severus Snape and the Prisoner of Azkaban"  

Writing PoA from Snape's viewpoint is something that's been in my head for a 
while. What I need is someone to read/review the chapters before I post them 
online (and check for grammatical/spelling errors and consistency, etc...) 

Anyone interested?  

~Cassie~ 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From linkajarjarbinks at yahoo.com  Sat Jan  4 22:54:53 2003
From: linkajarjarbinks at yahoo.com (Matilda Trelawney)
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 14:54:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Fanfiction (Need a favor)
In-Reply-To: <88.21f7a1a2.2b48bdeb@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20030104225453.79484.qmail@web12807.mail.yahoo.com>


I'd be happy to Cassandra! Just e-mail me personaly at linkajarjarbinks at yahoo.com, and we can talk from there!
Talk to you soon!
-Michelle
 IAmLordCassandra at aol.com wrote:Hey. 

I'm writting a fanfic entitled "Severus Snape and the Prisoner of Azkaban"  

Writing PoA from Snape's viewpoint is something that's been in my head for a 
while. What I need is someone to read/review the chapters before I post them 
online (and check for grammatical/spelling errors and consistency, etc...) 

Anyone interested?  

~Cassie~ 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Sat Jan  4 23:10:11 2003
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David <dfrankiswork@netscape.net>)
Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 23:10:11 -0000
Subject: The Sorting Hat as a teaching method
In-Reply-To: <20030103152453.2249.qmail@web10411.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <av7pkj+neqc@eGroups.com>

Kristjan Arnason wrote:

>  I took them all [i.e. students] to
> the computer room and went to the Warner Brothers
> harry Potter site, and had them all take the Sorting
> Hat test.  With the exception of the two best students
> in the class (there were 8 students total) they all
> did the test in Korean.  It has language options.
> 
> Anyhow,  the test put two students into each house. 

and

> The thing is, the kids started to assume personalities
> appropiate to their houses.  

Fascinating.  It's tempting to repeat the exercise, but with the 
house affiliations done completely randomly.  Would the same thing 
happen?

There's a main list point here.  Elkins?  Something about that 
horrible Hat and the horrible competitive house system?

David




From kristilynn5 at yahoo.com  Sun Jan  5 02:07:47 2003
From: kristilynn5 at yahoo.com (Kristi Smith)
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 18:07:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Fanfiction (Need a favor)
In-Reply-To: <88.21f7a1a2.2b48bdeb@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20030105020747.7958.qmail@web40303.mail.yahoo.com>


I would be happy to proofread for you.  My email is kristilynn5 at yahoo.com.  Sounds like fun.  I love reading fanfic.: )
Kristi
 IAmLordCassandra at aol.com wrote:Hey. 

I'm writting a fanfic entitled "Severus Snape and the Prisoner of Azkaban"  

Writing PoA from Snape's viewpoint is something that's been in my head for a 
while. What I need is someone to read/review the chapters before I post them 
online (and check for grammatical/spelling errors and consistency, etc...) 

Anyone interested?  

~Cassie~ 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Jan  5 03:38:45 2003
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston) <catlady@wicca.net>)
Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 03:38:45 -0000
Subject: 7dragons Sorting Hat (was: Which house would you be in?
In-Reply-To: <00e101c2b42d$eb5d8d60$1ba694d1@vaio>
Message-ID: <av89c5+l23g@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Melissa McCarthy" 
<risako at n...> wrote:

> > (http://hogwarts.7dragons.net/sortinghat.html)

> I like the questions too; it's one of the most thorough hats I've 
> found!  I just wish I could figure it out o_O

I like that Sorting Hat site, too, even tho' it keeps trying to put 
me in Gryffindor when I am a Ravenclaw through-and-through. It seems 
to think that anyone with any awareness of ethics at all is a 
Gryffindor, even a person too cowardly to ACT on ethics. I wish I 
understood the meaning of the questions better, so a couple of years 
ago I wrote them all down; I'll copy&paste them here and hope that 
Yahoo's mail-handler doesn't destroy the tabs:

*********
I am:
1) a thinker 		2) a dreamer
1) outgoing 		2) retiring
1) swift 		2) thorough	
1) active		2) mellow	
1) a bookworm		2) a gamer

I believe:
1) the ends justify the means 	2) doing the right thing is the most 
important thing
	
1) I get what I'm entitled to 	2) I get what I deserve
1) in my luck 			2) in my skill
1) in doing what's right 	2) in getting my own way
1) that everything can be explained, eventually, 	2) that there 
are things we're not meant to know

1) in fair play 		2) in never surrendering
1) in business before pleasure 	2) in savoring life to the utmost
1) in survival of the fittest 	2) in death before dishonor
1) in my luck 			2) in making my own luck
1) in dramatic tales 		2) in happy endings
1) life is a game		2) life is a sport
1) in moderation 		2) in pushing it to the limit
1) in practising what I preach 	2) in getting others to agree with me
1) it's never to late to have a happy childhood 	2) the best 
part of youth is outgrowing it

1) in miracles 			2) in the power of positive thinking
 
I don't like:
1) comic books 			2) historical nonfiction
1) being bored 			2) being alone
1) slow people 			2) stupid people
1) being rushed 		2) being idle
1) dull people 			2) mean people
1) physical exertion 		2) mental stress

I prefer:
1) a hearty home-cooked meal 	2) gourmet cuisine
1) classic elegance 		2) trendy fashion
1) rooting for the home team 	2) cheering on the winner
1) listening to music 		2) dancing
1) hugs 			2) handshakes

People think I'm:
1) exciting 			2) dependable
1) a role model 		2) a bad influence
1) depressing 			2) annoying
1) fun to be around 		2) intriguing
1) optimistic 			2) realistic

My friends are
1) smart 			2) bold
1) warm 			2) cool
1) outspoken			2) mannerly
1) loud 			2) quiet
1) cool 			2) strange


My friends & I:
1) are a close-knit group	2) are more of a casual cluster
1) go out and do things 	2) sit around and talk
1) work together 		2) play together 
1) accomplish great things together 2) tend to get in trouble together
1) hang out together when we can 2) stick together through thick and 
thin

I would rather:
1) cook 			2) clean	
1) conquer 			2) succeed
1) put things together 		2) take things apart
1) accept defeat gracefully 	2) plot my revenge
1) play with finger-paints 	2) play with building blocks
1) dream 			2) imagine
1) take my time on what I'm doing 2) move along to the next thing
1) be entertained 		2) be informed
1) write 			2) draw
1) wash the car 		2) do the laundry

The Hat decides: 

I see a strong intellect, a great thirst for knowledge, and a 
potential for great wisdom: RAVENCLAW

I see bravery and nobility, a strong sense of fair play, and a 
willingness to fight for justice: GRYFFINDOR

I see you're loyal and true, unafraid of hard work, and willing to 
persevere to attain your ends: HUFFLEPUFF

I see sly cunning, immense self-certainty, and a fierce hunger for 
power: SLYTHERIN
*********

I have a LOT of personal comments on it, but will put just one in this 
post:
"I prefer: 1) classic elegance 	2) trendy fashion"
Suppose I don't like either, but do like classic slobbiness or 
extravagant eccentricity?




From rvotaw at i-55.com  Sun Jan  5 03:43:29 2003
From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw)
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 21:43:29 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: TOYS!!/houses
References: <av7aeg+10oit@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <002f01c2b46c$9d43a940$ac9fcdd1@RVotaw>

I (Richelle) wrote:

>> WHAT!!!!  You found the sword?!?!  Where?  When? How much? (Eh, who 
cares how much!)

Anna responded:

>Believe it or not, the swords were at Toys R Us, in the "markdown" 
>section, after christmas.  I couldn't believe it! Cause I bought my 
>five year old the Star Wars light saber, and he like that, but after 
>we saw CoS, he was climbing on the footstool, with the broom (my 
>real, kitchen broom), jumping off, saying "Take that Malfoy!!". I 
>think he would have loved the Gryffindor sword.

I'll have to get to Toys R Us as soon as I can, they generally have a better selection than the local KayBee toys.  After a day of watching "sword" movies, (Man in the Iron Mask and Fellowship of the Rings) I really need a sword to wave around.  I don't think I'd be safe with a full size one, so the 24" Gryffindor plastic sword is probably best.  Oh, but don't worry, I watched SS/PS too.  And you know, I notice something new every time.  Like the looks on Harry and Ron's faces when Draco finds out he gets detention too. Hee hee.

Anne U wrote:

> of boring to an adult after a few tries. She absolutely DID NOT want 
> any of the action figures OR the Legos. I remember when she saw the 
> price on the Lego Hogwarts Castle she audibly gulped:-(

I audibly gulped when I saw the price on the Lego castle too.  Then I wrote the check. :)

Melissa wrote:
> (http://hogwarts.7dragons.net/sortinghat.html), 
>That hat always, always, always puts me in Hufflepuff... which I can see.  I
>think I'd prefer Ravenclaw, but I might fit better in Hufflepuff.  I change
>my answers slightly from day to day (still telling the truth, but some of it
>depends on my mood), and once I tried to fix it to *make* it put me in
>Ravenclaw, but it wouldn't.  Well, maybe that just means I'm not clever
>enough for Ravenclaw after all! <g>

Hmm, it put me in Hufflepuff too.  I've never been put in Hufflepuff before.  And actually, I don't really see myself as a Hufflepuff at all.  I'd probably be a Slytherin before a Hufflepuff (which is not necessarily good depending on how you look at it!).

Richelle


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From saitaina at wizzards.net  Sun Jan  5 04:07:44 2003
From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina)
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 20:07:44 -0800
Subject: Votes Needed!
References: <av7aeg+10oit@eGroups.com> <002f01c2b46c$9d43a940$ac9fcdd1@RVotaw>
Message-ID: <00e101c2b470$00a5d500$23b8efd8@oemcomputer>

Fanfics.org is having a fanfiction
competition.  What does this mean to you?
Well, it means that we, the authors involved
in the competition need YOUR votes.  It takes
all of five minutes. Read the fics, decide
which one you like best and vote for it.
Besides the enjoyment of voting, you might
find a fic you've never heard of before so I
ask each of you to take a few minutes  to
read and vote.

Fanfics.org (that's the site, click on
tournament)

Saitaina
****
http://www.livejournal.com/users/saitaina

James: "Option One is that we go back into
the jail cell and pretend we have no idea how
the couch came to be lying in the hall when
he comes back."

Giles:  "Xander don't speak Latin in front of
the books."

Phoebe: We're rescuing you from the tall
dark, and naked man"




From rvotaw at i-55.com  Sun Jan  5 04:12:46 2003
From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw)
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 22:12:46 -0600
Subject: A sort of Gryffindor sword
Message-ID: <007401c2b470$b4501840$ac9fcdd1@RVotaw>

Battle Orders Ltd. has added a Harry Potter section and is listing this as the "boy wizard's sword."  

http://www.battleorders.co.uk/acatalog/HARRY__POTTER___THE_CHAMBER_OF_SECRETS.html

It describes it as:

Taken from an original sword owned by Napoleon in 1809. This is a sidearm of magical proportions - non sharp blade complete in scabbard... 40cm overall length.  

Err, how does that exactly amount to Harry Potter?  Anyway, it's not bad looking.  It's approximately $80 US.  

Richelle


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Jan  5 05:56:22 2003
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston) <catlady@wicca.net>)
Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 05:56:22 -0000
Subject: A sort of Gryffindor sword
In-Reply-To: <007401c2b470$b4501840$ac9fcdd1@RVotaw>
Message-ID: <av8he6+9a67@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Richelle Votaw" <rvotaw at i...> 
wrote:

> Err, how does that exactly amount to Harry Potter?  Anyway, it's 
> not bad looking.  It's approximately $80 US.  

Ow! You can get a probably better sword for a certainly better price 
at www.thegiftfairies.com . Here is their picture of the sword 
I bought as a present for my friend: 
http://www.thegiftfairies.com:80/fairies/assets/product_images/product
_lib/30000-30999/30024.jpg

It's only $49.95 (and I don't remember the s&h) and at that price, 
Tim and I were expecting a bit of Toledo tin trash. We were happily 
shocked when it arrived and was a Real Sword! of Pakistani Stainless 
Steel, and the scabbord is good too, and my friend adores it.

Her "Excalibur" is even lower ($44.95) and has a RED gemstone, so it 
is more similar to the sword of Gryffindor than that Napoleon sword 
is. 

(For some reason she didn't post pictures of two eagle long knives 
that are also available: #31480 is dagger shaped has a metal hilt 
with a an eagle with spread wings as the guard, or whatever that 
cross-thing is called, and #29359 is more sabre shaped and has a 
wooden hilt with an eagle's head on the top (where mine has a lion's 
head) and I didn't actually buy either of them so I can't vouch for 
how good they are.)

The Battle Orders website seems to be (how to put this gently?) 
abyssmally slow at loading. I persisted because I love to look at 
pictures of swords. Most of their prices look appalling, but some of 
their styles look nice. I wish they had some text explaining where 
they were copied from (inspired by), such as: what is a Beer Brewer 
Sword with a beautifully but implausibly twisted blade? 




From dradamsapple at yahoo.com  Sun Jan  5 06:03:52 2003
From: dradamsapple at yahoo.com (dradamsapple <dradamsapple@yahoo.com>)
Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 06:03:52 -0000
Subject: A sort of Gryffindor sword
In-Reply-To: <007401c2b470$b4501840$ac9fcdd1@RVotaw>
Message-ID: <av8hs8+4018@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Richelle Votaw" 
<rvotaw at i...> wrote:
> Battle Orders Ltd. has added a Harry Potter section and is listing 
this as the "boy wizard's sword."  
> 
> 
http://www.battleorders.co.uk/acatalog/HARRY__POTTER___THE_CHAMBER_OF_
SECRETS.html
> 
> It describes it as:
> 
> Taken from an original sword owned by Napoleon in 1809. This is a 
sidearm of magical proportions - non sharp blade complete in 
scabbard... 40cm overall length.  
> 
> Err, how does that exactly amount to Harry Potter?  Anyway, it's 
not bad looking.  It's approximately $80 US.  
> 
> Richelle
> 

Yes, but does it make "real battle sounds" (swords clinking together) 
like the gray plastic sword with the giant red "rubies" that I saw?
Oh, and the plasitc one says *GODRIC GRYFFINDOR* on it too !(I forgot 
to mention that before)
And, for less than 20 bucks, it's a steel!! (he!he! gutta amuse 
myself somehow!)

Anna . . .
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From macloudt at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Jan  5 10:16:09 2003
From: macloudt at yahoo.co.uk (Mary Ann <macloudt@yahoo.co.uk>)
Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 10:16:09 -0000
Subject: TOYS!!/houses
In-Reply-To: <002f01c2b46c$9d43a940$ac9fcdd1@RVotaw>
Message-ID: <av90l9+a8uk@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Richelle Votaw" 
<rvotaw at i...> wrote:

> I audibly gulped when I saw the price on the Lego castle too.  Then 
I wrote the check. :)

LOL I treated myself to the castle last year, after I had a huge 
argument with DH!  I made it with a friend one evening and it sat on 
the piano for a year, but my two older kids (aged 4 and 5) kept 
climbing on the piano and playing with it, so I put it in my son's 
room.  He promptly dismantled it and doesn't play with it much, but I 
still have the instruction book in case I ever get the urge to build 
it again.  Beth and Gareth both love the PS video and I've noticed 
that lately they've been playing with the Lego figurines.  Recently I 
treated myself to the Hogwarts Express, and I'll tell the kids "HANDS 
OFF!" when I get around to assembling it. <g> 

On the subject of houses, the Vitual Hogwarts site puts me in 
Hufflepuff.  That's accurate, but I'd rather be in Gryffindor. ;)  
The WB one puts me in Slytherin, which is completely wrong.  I wonder 
if that's because I've had pet rats before, and that's the pet I'd 
bring with me to Hogwarts?  I mean, I'd *return* the satchel of 
galleons, which isn't a Slytherin-ish thing to do, is it?

Does anyone know of any other online sorting hats?

Mary Ann
(who has nothing against Slytherins; she just isn't one!)




From boredchocobo at attbi.com  Sun Jan  5 10:26:01 2003
From: boredchocobo at attbi.com (random)
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 05:26:01 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: 7dragons Sorting Hat (was: Which house would you be in?
References: <av89c5+l23g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <001101c2b4a4$d8c4af40$82647d18@Compuhon>

Interesting site, lots of good questions, but I think it needs some work on the results. I think I'm pretty much a Ravenclaw except that I do think that fair play and doing the right thing are pretty important, so all the simple ones (like the movie site) tell me Gryffindor... but this site somehow put me in Hufflepuff, which isn't right for me at all. I agree with what you said about any questions about ethics, because I'm sure the majority of people at Hogwarts wish the world was a nice happy friendly place all the time, but I thought it was the willingness to take action on things that made someone a Gryffindor. 
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Catlady (Rita Prince Winston) <catlady at wicca.net> 
  To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2003 10:38 PM
  Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: 7dragons Sorting Hat (was: Which house would you be in?


  --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Melissa McCarthy" 
  <risako at n...> wrote:

  > > (http://hogwarts.7dragons.net/sortinghat.html)

  > I like the questions too; it's one of the most thorough hats I've 
  > found!  I just wish I could figure it out o_O

  I like that Sorting Hat site, too, even tho' it keeps trying to put 
  me in Gryffindor when I am a Ravenclaw through-and-through. It seems 
  to think that anyone with any awareness of ethics at all is a 
  Gryffindor, even a person too cowardly to ACT on ethics. I wish I 
  understood the meaning of the questions better, so a couple of years 
  ago I wrote them all down; I'll copy&paste them here and hope that 
  Yahoo's mail-handler doesn't destroy the tabs:



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com  Sun Jan  5 10:49:38 2003
From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 05:49:38 EST
Subject: Strange SHIPS 
Message-ID: <129.1f4a2475.2b4967c2@aol.com>

What are some of the strangest pairings you've seen? My top one has to be 
Lucius/Draco...yes...Lucius Malfoy and Draco Malfoy. While the idea of an 
incestuous relationship is a little..um..0_o;   The fanfic I read with this 
pairing was actually very beautiful.  

Then there's the Snape/Harry pairing.  Snape/Lupin. Snape/Black. 
Snape/McGonagall. Snape/Hermione. 

Snape really gets around, doesn't he? 

~Cassie~ 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From renati at link.net.id  Sun Jan  5 11:27:20 2003
From: renati at link.net.id (briefcandles <renati@link.net.id>)
Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 11:27:20 -0000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Which house would you be in?
Message-ID: <av94qo+khif@eGroups.com>

>Does anyone know of any other online sorting hats?

Here's one:

http://timidity.org/tests/sortinghat.html

Me, I'm a Ravenclaw/Slytherin hybrid who somehow always ends up in 
Gryffindor. The 7dragons hat was the only one who'd sort me into 
Slytherin - except I didn't *fit* their description of one. Oh, the 
identity crisis.

Tituk




From sushi at societyhappens.com  Sun Jan  5 11:41:46 2003
From: sushi at societyhappens.com (Sushi)
Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 05:41:46 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Strange SHIPS
In-Reply-To: <129.1f4a2475.2b4967c2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030105051517.02680cb0@mail.societyhappens.com>

At 05:49 AM 1/5/03 -0500, you wrote:
>What are some of the strangest pairings you've seen? My top one has to be
>Lucius/Draco...yes...Lucius Malfoy and Draco Malfoy. While the idea of an
>incestuous relationship is a little..um..0_o;   The fanfic I read with this
>pairing was actually very beautiful.


         Which one?  I've seen a fair bit of L/D, and it's ranged from 
downright disturbing (and not in a good way) to so believable it's 
scary.  It also goes well with the theory that Lucius is a, ah, somewhat 
less than doting father - sexual abuse as punishment, or as a general 
extension of Draco's usual treatment.  I mean, let's face it: neither 
incest nor pederasty is historically unheard of among the upper classes, 
and given Lucius' background and temperament it probably wouldn't be a huge 
stretch for him to combine the two.


>Then there's the Snape/Harry pairing.  Snape/Lupin. Snape/Black.
>Snape/McGonagall. Snape/Hermione.
>
>Snape really gets around, doesn't he?


         Oh, trust me, you haven't seen the half of 
it.  http://www.societyhappens.com/sushi if you *really* want to burn your 
eyeballs on the Snape pairings.  If nothing else, the list in the 
description for _In Academia_ should give you nightmares.  (I swear, a lot 
of these were written on, essentially, a dare.)

         I think a lot of the fascination with pairing Snape with... well, 
I've seen everything from Harry and Hagrid to Ollivander and Fluffy... is 
the fact that he's a mysterious character with a shady past and obvious 
unusual traits (such as the cool use of logic amongst a bunch of flighty 
wizards - I can appreciate that trait; even my painfully rational, logical, 
technical husband tells me to just give it a rest).  This makes him stand 
out, even in a society of, as Petunia put it, "freaks".

         Now, I know the school of thought here is divided between "greasy 
git", "dark reluctant angel (of sorts)", and "dead sexy".  I, personally, 
think he's sexy.  (I also think Voldemort is sexy.  YMMV.)  However, it 
also digs into the mystery about him: why he's still teaching when he 
obviously hates it with a vengeance, why Dumbledore trusts him so 
implicitly, what he was doing running around with those loons in masks in 
the first place.  He's a complex character, and it's irresistible to delve 
into his psyche.  This just happens to include, well, sex.  He's adult, 
he's most likely human, he's male.  Unless he's been ignoring some of his 
cauldron safety equipment, it's a factor that, in the right situation, 
should be taken into account.  (This isn't to say that, in the middle of a 
chat with Minerva over finals, he's going to suddenly think, "Cor, nice set 
o' jugs on 'er!"  This is about as UN-Snapelike as it would be possible to 
get.  No offence to Minerva.)

         I know this isn't everyone's schtick, but I happen to see it as a 
good setting for exploring his hypothetical mentality.  Sex, when written 
as something other than sex (for example, from the standpoint of a business 
transaction - very Machiavellian way to do things), can trigger little 
ideas about what a character is thinking that you might not normally come 
up with.  Sex, when written as sex in one or more of its multitude of 
forms, can serve the same purpose.  (Sorry this is unclear.  It's 5:30 in 
the morning and I'm about to pass out on my keyboard. *sheepish 
grin*)  Snape is such a mystery that any possible way to get into his head 
is going to be explored.

         Hmm.  Can you tell my fics are plot-oriented? ;)

         Okay, rant over.  I'm goin' to bed.

Sushi, rabid Snape/Harry and Snape/Voldemort shipper (trust me, it *is* 
possible to make them work)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From dianasdolls at yahoo.com  Sun Jan  5 11:43:13 2003
From: dianasdolls at yahoo.com (Diana Lucas)
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 03:43:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Fanfics with slash & sex...I don't get it
Message-ID: <20030105114313.81337.qmail@web40206.mail.yahoo.com>

Cassie posted:
>What are some of the strangest pairings >you've
"seen? My top one has to be
>Lucius/Draco...yes...Lucius Malfoy and Draco Malfoy.
>While the idea of an incestuous relationship is a
>little..um..0_o;   The fanfic I read with this
>pairing was actually very beautiful.  

>Then there's the Snape/Harry pairing.  Snape/Lupin.
>Snape/Black. 
>Snape/McGonagall. Snape/Hermione. 

Extremely disgusting.  I'm glad my son doesn't know
how to read my email or find fanfics online.  Triple
yecch!

I honestly don't understand the appeal of all these
slash pairings.  I suppose people will write what they
like, but I won't be reading any of it.  I like the
characters too much as they are written to go changing
their sexual preference on them!  If the Harry Potter
books introduced a gay/lesbian character I wouldn't
try to pair that character up with someone of the
opposite sex in a fanfic I wrote, so I can't see
trying to pair up hetrosexual characters with someone
of the same sex.  Besides, I can't see 11 to
14-year-old children [the age span of Harry, Ron and
Hermione from PS/SS through GoF] being written as
having sex at all.  Why can't child characters remain
children without people writing about them having sex?
 Yeah, free country, I know, so the writers have a
right to write that if they wish - and I support their
right to do it - I just refuse to read it.

It's fun to dream up alternate stories for the
characters from TV shows and movies, but the best fan
fiction I've ever read, whether it's Star Trek, Star
Wars, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, The X-Files or Lord of
the Rings, has kept true to the characters as
envisioned and outlined by the ORIGINAL
creators/writers of the characters.  I haven't even
ventured into Harry Potter fanfics because I won't be
happy if I stumble onto some ribald sex scene between
characters currently no older than 15 (as of the
anxiously awaited OotP) or "secret lustful glances"
between Ron and Harry.
 
I know I sound like a prude or some religious fanatic,
but I swear I'm not.  I just can't fathom the appeal
of those kinds of fanfics at all and am admitting it. 


Diana







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From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com  Sun Jan  5 11:52:22 2003
From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 06:52:22 EST
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Strange SHIPS
Message-ID: <119.1d250974.2b497676@aol.com>

In a message dated 1/5/2003 6:40:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
sushi at societyhappens.com writes:


>          Which one?  I've seen a fair bit of L/D, and it's ranged from 
> downright disturbing (and not in a good way) to so believable it's 
> scary.  It also goes well with the theory that Lucius is a, ah, somewhat 
> less than doting father - sexual abuse as punishment, or as a general 
> extension of Draco's usual treatment.  I mean, let's face it: neither 
> incest nor pederasty is historically unheard of among the upper classes, 
> and given Lucius' background and temperament it probably wouldn't be a huge 
> 
> stretch for him to combine the two.

It was called "Tainted". The beautiful part about it really was the 
descriptions.  And while it didn't have the most complex plot, it had a good 
one nonetheless. 

I also like Snape slashes. My favourites are Snape/Harry and Snape/Quirrell. 
I seem to prefer Yayoi (boy/boy) fics XXP 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From myphilosophy2001 at yahoo.com  Sun Jan  5 11:56:52 2003
From: myphilosophy2001 at yahoo.com (myphilosophy2001 <myphilosophy2001@yahoo.com>)
Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 11:56:52 -0000
Subject: Strange SHIPS
In-Reply-To: <129.1f4a2475.2b4967c2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <av96i4+2c4h@eGroups.com>

I've read my fair share of Draco/Lucius and Snape with just about 
everyone at Hogwarts (minus Dumbledore and Hagrid, thank god, though 
I've no doubt those ffs exist, as well...no need to point them out -- 
I'll gladly remain ignorant).

But you want *really* strange (or sick)? Try one I accidently 
stumbled upong yesterday -- Hermione/Beetle!Rita. Don't ask. For all 
that is right about the world, don't even consider it. I could've 
done without having been so enlightened myself. 

Just goes to show there's no such thing as too far in the HP fandom, 
which is both a frightening and comforting thought at the same time 
for some reason.

But my sentimental favorite strange ship (which I really don't find 
that strange at all)? Remus/Hermione :)

-Jess, who is a notoriously rabid Remus/Hermione shipper.


--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, IAmLordCassandra at a... wrote:
> What are some of the strangest pairings you've seen? My top one has 
to be 
> Lucius/Draco...yes...Lucius Malfoy and Draco Malfoy. While the idea 
of an 
> incestuous relationship is a little..um..0_o;   The fanfic I read 
with this 
> pairing was actually very beautiful.  
> 
> Then there's the Snape/Harry pairing.  Snape/Lupin. Snape/Black. 
> Snape/McGonagall. Snape/Hermione. 
> 
> Snape really gets around, doesn't he? 
> 
> ~Cassie~ 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com  Sun Jan  5 11:59:40 2003
From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 06:59:40 EST
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Fanfics with slash & sex...I don't get it
Message-ID: <3e.2a03fdb9.2b49782c@aol.com>

Diana wrote: 

> Extremely disgusting.  I'm glad my son doesn't know
> how to read my email or find fanfics online.  Triple
> yecch!
> 
> I honestly don't understand the appeal of all these
> slash pairings.  I suppose people will write what they
> like, but I won't be reading any of it.  I like the
> characters too much as they are written to go changing
> their sexual preference on them!  If the Harry Potter
> books introduced a gay/lesbian character I wouldn't
> try to pair that character up with someone of the
> opposite sex in a fanfic I wrote, so I can't see
> trying to pair up hetrosexual characters with someone
> of the same sex.  Besides, I can't see 11 to
> 14-year-old children [the age span of Harry, Ron and
> Hermione from PS/SS through GoF] being written as
> having sex at all.  Why can't child characters remain
> children without people writing about them having sex?
> Yeah, free country, I know, so the writers have a
> right to write that if they wish - and I support their
> right to do it - I just refuse to read it.
> 
> It's fun to dream up alternate stories for the
> characters from TV shows and movies, but the best fan
> fiction I've ever read, whether it's Star Trek, Star
> Wars, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, The X-Files or Lord of
> the Rings, has kept true to the characters as
> envisioned and outlined by the ORIGINAL
> creators/writers of the characters.  I haven't even
> ventured into Harry Potter fanfics because I won't be
> happy if I stumble onto some ribald sex scene between
> characters currently no older than 15 (as of the
> anxiously awaited OotP) or "secret lustful glances"
> between Ron and Harry.
> 
> I know I sound like a prude or some religious fanatic,
> but I swear I'm not.  I just can't fathom the appeal
> of those kinds of fanfics at all and am admitting it. 

I understand just how you feel. Still, I think it is interesting to speculate 
about the 'what ifs'. If a fic simply has...say...Draco and Harry just 
randomly deciding to have sex, then to me that isn't a very good fic. If, 
however, the story has a strong plot line and it makes sense, then to me 
that's a good fic. 

~Cassie~ 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com  Sun Jan  5 12:13:24 2003
From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 07:13:24 EST
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Strange SHIPS/OC SHIPS
Message-ID: <158.19e2ba24.2b497b64@aol.com>


I remember reading a fic not too long ago making fun of Snape pairings where 
Dumbledore decided to 'whore' Snape out. It was a bit twisted, but amusing... 


What are everyone's thoughts on Original Character/HP character pairings? I 
know I'm guilty of writing them, though they all contain yours truely as the 
OC and are mainly for personal amusement/enjoyment. 

~Cassie~ 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk  Sun Jan  5 13:57:06 2003
From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte)
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 13:57:06 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Fanfics with slash & sex...I don't get it
References: <20030105114313.81337.qmail@web40206.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3E1839B2.000001.92957@monica>



-------Original Message-------

From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
Date: 05 January 2003 11:43:15
To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Fanfics with slash & sex...I don't get it

I honestly don't understand the appeal of all these 
slash pairings. I suppose people will write what they 
like, but I won't be reading any of it. I like the 
characters too much as they are written to go changing 
their sexual preference on them! If the Harry Potter 
books introduced a gay/lesbian character I wouldn't 
try to pair that character up with someone of the 
opposite sex in a fanfic I wrote, so I can't see 
trying to pair up hetrosexual characters with someone 
of the same sex. Besides, I can't see 11 to 
14-year-old children [the age span of Harry, Ron and 
Hermione from PS/SS through GoF] being written as 
having sex at all. Why can't child characters remain 
children without people writing about them having sex? 
Yeah, free country, I know, so the writers have a 
right to write that if they wish - and I support their 
right to do it - I just refuse to read it. 


Firstly - while I've read a lot of fanfic with the younger characters having
sex I've seen very few that aren't set far enough in the future that the
kids are all over 16. Just because a fic is harry/Ron or Ron/Hermione or
whatever doesn't mean it's about 12 year olds having sex. Generally the
authors will age the children up. I have no objection to the kids having sex
before they are legally allowed to (as long as they're not too young) as
that's realistic - not everyone waits for the age of consent, but I would
insist that they are having sex with each other and not adults before I read
it (unless it's n/c sex, which I don't read very often anyway).

Secondly - what makes you think we (us authors) are changing their sexual
preferences, with the exception of people like Percy (who we know is dating
Penelope) and a few other characters we don't know definitively what their
sexual preferences are. How do you know there aren't already gay characters
in the books? You seem to be working on the principle that all characters
are hetersexual unless they definitively declare themselves to be gay, I
prefer to assume that unless I have been given evidence either way a
character's sexual preferences are totally undefined and I can pair them
with any character I want. That's not to say that I think all the adults and
older students are jumping from bed to bed (or desk, wall, an y other
convenient surface) all the time, I too prefer my stories to have a plot
generally.

Now I'm not trying to force you to read anything you don't want to, I have
several online friends who refuse to read slash (and a couple who won't read
het unless they're beaten over the head with it), you can read what you want
- like you say it's a free country. But there is some very good plot-driven
slash out there that stays true to JKR's characters.

Besides there are so few strong female characters in the books, compared to
the guys, that we poor authors either have to write slash, introduce
original characters, or stick to a very limited number of pairings. Offhand
I can think of a dozen or more male characters I feel I know enough about to
write but very few female characters (Hermione, Minerva, Molly, possibly
Ginny) - the majority of the female characters we know nothing about -
Lavender, the twins (can't think of their names) etc are just stereotypical
giggling girlies - and fine there are girls around like that but these
characters have no depth to them. With the exception of the ones I've
mentioned the females are less well developed than the males. Who are our 
heroes'? Harry, Ron, Albus, Snape (possibly), Remus, Sirius, Fred and George
 Mad-Eye, Lockhart, Hagrid, even bloody Dobby is male! And our villains?
Voldemort, Snape (possibly, see I'm being very even handed here <g>), Draco,
Lucius, the Dursleys (alright one female here I forgot her earlier), Peter,
Quirrell, Crouch .... Even the ghosts we know best are generally male, I
never thought I'd say this but thank God for Myrtle! And which Houses are
seen as the strongest/most important? The ones founded by men, the two
houses founded by women are also sidelined. I'm not claiming that's an
exhaustive list but still *that's* why I write slash.

Sorry that went from an fyi about slash writing to a rant about the sexist
world of Harry Potter. Off to go and write some female-centered potterfic to
slay this particulat hobby horse so I can go back to my regularly scheduled
slash.

K

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From saitaina at wizzards.net  Sun Jan  5 14:52:31 2003
From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina)
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 06:52:31 -0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Fanfics with slash & sex...I don't get it
References: <20030105114313.81337.qmail@web40206.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <005801c2b4ca$13901b80$4fbbefd8@oemcomputer>

I would like to state, for the record and at
the beginning so that no one accuses me of
anything, I respect your opinion and you have
every right to have it.  That said...

Diana wrote:

<I like the
characters too much as they are written to go
changing
their sexual preference on them! .>

No one's changing their sexual preference.
A lot of kids explore in their teenage years
and that's one of the things slash writers
pick up on.  Just because Neville's kissing
Percy in one story doesn't mean he's going to
be gay (bi/what have you) forever.   Added to
that we just don't KNOW for sure their sexual
preference.   Even with those dating/married.
Stories are told countless times of a couple
married 20+ years and suddenly one of them
figures out that they're not all as attracted
to the opposite sex as they thought they
were.  And for some, denial is a way of life.
We can never be sure but it's fun to play
with.

<Besides, I can't see 11 to
14-year-old children [the age span of Harry,
Ron and
Hermione from PS/SS through GoF] being
written as
having sex at all.>

Hate to burst the bubble but nine year olds
have consensual sex nowadays.   Not saying
they should but it happens.  But most stories
that are written do take place fifth year and
up, the time when most are going farther then
making out in empty classrooms.

<I know I sound like a prude or some
religious fanatic,
but I swear I'm not.  I just can't fathom the
appeal
of those kinds of fanfics at all and am
admitting it. >

I used to say that as well, until I actually
tried a well written one.  Now I'm a constant
slash writer (Yes I do write het but not
often and usually my het is within a slash
story).   My advice, as it always is, is try
one, just one and if you don't like it after,
hey, your choice but at least try it before
you say ewww.  You never know, you might be a
secret slasher.

Saitaina
****
http://www.livejournal.com/users/saitaina

James: "Option One is that we go back into
the jail cell and pretend we have no idea how
the couch came to be lying in the hall when
he comes back."

Giles:  "Xander don't speak Latin in front of
the books."

Phoebe: We're rescuing you from the tall
dark, and naked man"




From ruhgozler at yahoo.com  Sun Jan  5 15:04:01 2003
From: ruhgozler at yahoo.com (Linda Williams)
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 07:04:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Which house would you be in?
In-Reply-To: <1041764185.716.65785.m12@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20030105150401.56273.qmail@web40708.mail.yahoo.com>

I seem to end up in Ravenclaw about twice as often as
I end up in Slytherin.  It's kind of a scary concept
when you think on it.
Linda

=====
Sometimes you have to claw your way into the light instead of just standing there and letting it shine.
A fanfiction writer who's name I don't remember

__________________________________________________
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From heidit at netbox.com  Sun Jan  5 15:33:35 2003
From: heidit at netbox.com (heiditandy)
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 10:33:35 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Fanfics with slash & sex...don't get it? Don't avoid everything just because of that!
In-Reply-To: <20030105114313.81337.qmail@web40206.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <018701c2b4cf$d04e2f50$0301a8c0@Frodo>

Cassie mentioned: 
> 
> >Then there's the Snape/Harry pairing.  Snape/Lupin. Snape/Black.
> >Snape/McGonagall. Snape/Hermione. 
> 
> Extremely disgusting.  I'm glad my son doesn't know
> how to read my email or find fanfics online.  Triple
> yecch!

Which part is extremely disgusting? The PG-13 rated fics that pair Snape
and McGonagall or the ones that pair Snape and Lupin? 

And if so, why is it disgusting? Why would it be disgusting if the fics
were R-rated? 

It's not as if there aren't PG-13 moments in the books (Ron's comment
about "Uranus", or Percy and Penelope snogging in empty classrooms, as
witnessed by 11-ish-year-old Ginny, or the references to Snape blasting
rosebushes apart to reveal presumptively snogging teenagers. And again,
what was Florence doing, really?

And it's not as if there aren't romances - or at least the implication
of romantic interest - between an 18 year old (Krum) and a
fourteen-or-possibly-fifteen-year-old (Hermione). 

So what's the extremely disgusting? JKR's even created a universe where
the gender of individuals in the snogging - or the dancing - is totally
undisclosed - Sinistra dancing with Barty Crouch, for example, or the
genders of the pairs of teens in the rosebushes. 

> Besides, I can't see 11 to
> 14-year-old children [the age span of Harry, Ron and
> Hermione from PS/SS through GoF] being written as
> having sex at all.  

I agree with you - I don't think that the characterisations JKR's
created for Harry or Hermione would remain in character if they were
having sex at this point in canon - although I think that Ron, if Fleur
threw her full magic at him, might end up in a sexual situation without
it being OOC at all. 

> I haven't even
> ventured into Harry Potter fanfics because I won't be
> happy if I stumble onto some ribald sex scene between 
> characters currently no older than 15 (as of the anxiously 
> awaited OotP) or "secret lustful glances" between Ron and Harry.

If you stumble across it, the author is stupid and mean. No fanfic
should be posted without a rating, simple as that. And anyone who rates
a fic as G or PG when it really should be rated R would have their fic
rerated immediately, were it posted on FictionAlley (the fanfic site
that I run). 

Don't make the mistake of avoiding a lot of wonderful fanfics simply
because you're concerned that you'll "stumble" across sex in them. The
fics on FA are all rated for content (by the author) and it's easy
enough to avoid the R-rated ones - we don't HAVE anything that's NC-17. 

However, I really think it would be foolish to ignore a wonderful story
like Hyphen's The Speculum Curse
(http://www.riddikulus.org/authors/hyphen/SC.html) which takes place
when the Marauders are 6th or 7th years because Remus snogs an OC when
he's under a curse, or Sirius spends some time prowling after Narcissa.
Or to ignore AngieJ's wonderful Trouble in Paradise series which
features the trio in their late 20s - some of them are married, but
they're all well of age and creatively and appropriately characterised
(http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/AngieJ/). No, don't read Snitch,
even though the New York Times thought it a good story, but take a look
at Arabella's Chance Encounters
(http://www.sugarquill.net/read.php?storyid=811&chapno=1) which features
the trio - and a lot of Weasleys) back in the mid-1980s. 




From Lord1912 at juno.com  Sun Jan  5 15:46:21 2003
From: Lord1912 at juno.com (lord1912 <Lord1912@juno.com>)
Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 15:46:21 -0000
Subject: 7dragons Sorting Hat (was: Which house would you be in?
In-Reply-To: <av89c5+l23g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <av9k0d+ss7b@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince 
Winston) <catlady at w...>" <catlady at w...> wrote:
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Melissa McCarthy" 
> <risako at n...> wrote:
> 
> > > (http://hogwarts.7dragons.net/sortinghat.html)
> 
> > I like the questions too; it's one of the most thorough hats 
I've 
> > found!  I just wish I could figure it out o_O


I tried it.....Slytherin again...heh, heh, heh.


Lady Tavington-Malfoy




From Lord1912 at juno.com  Sun Jan  5 15:48:28 2003
From: Lord1912 at juno.com (lord1912 <Lord1912@juno.com>)
Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 15:48:28 -0000
Subject: Strange SHIPS
In-Reply-To: <129.1f4a2475.2b4967c2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <av9k4c+bd3k@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, IAmLordCassandra at a... wrote:
 
> 
> Snape really gets around, doesn't he? 
> 
> ~Cassie~ 
> 

Yeah, he's just a horny old git!   ;-p

Lady Tavington-Malfoy




From Lord1912 at juno.com  Sun Jan  5 15:53:25 2003
From: Lord1912 at juno.com (lord1912 <Lord1912@juno.com>)
Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 15:53:25 -0000
Subject: Which house would you be in?
In-Reply-To: <av94qo+khif@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <av9kdl+et3u@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "briefcandles <renati at l...>" 
<renati at l...> wrote:
> >Does anyone know of any other online sorting hats?
> 
> Here's one:
> 
> http://timidity.org/tests/sortinghat.html
> 
> Me, I'm a Ravenclaw/Slytherin hybrid who somehow always ends up in 
> Gryffindor. The 7dragons hat was the only one who'd sort me into 
> Slytherin - except I didn't *fit* their description of one. Oh, 
the 
> identity crisis.
> 
> Tituk


Dang....a Slyth yet again.  Who would have guessed it?  ;-)

Lady Tavington-Malfoy




From Lord1912 at juno.com  Sun Jan  5 16:10:32 2003
From: Lord1912 at juno.com (lord1912 <Lord1912@juno.com>)
Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 16:10:32 -0000
Subject: Spock vs Snape
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030105051517.02680cb0@mail.societyhappens.com>
Message-ID: <av9ldo+eq86@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Sushi <sushi at s...> wrote:



>          I think a lot of the fascination with pairing Snape 
with... well, 
> I've seen everything from Harry and Hagrid to Ollivander and 
Fluffy... is 
> the fact that he's a mysterious character with a shady past and 
obvious 
> unusual traits (such as the cool use of logic amongst a bunch of 
flighty 
> wizards ......This makes him stand out
 ..... it 
> also digs into the mystery about him....  He's a complex 
character, and it's irresistible to delve 
> into his psyche. >

Snape is such a mystery that any possible way to get into his head 
> is going to be explored.

This reminds me of the fascination that many female fans had with Mr 
Spock when Star Trek fans starting writing fanfic waaaaaay back in 
the 60s.  Like Snape he is very mysterious and a user of cool logic, 
and apparently had no emotional/sexual relationships with anyone.  
He also had the dark hair/sallow skin thing going on.  All of this 
made him an irresistible challenge, especially to women.  Every 
woman wanted to be the one who would melt that cold, emotionless 
exterior....they visualized being the only woman who had the "right 
stuff" to finally warm him up.   

And, of course, the word "slash" itself was invented to refer to the 
Kirk/Spock fics that also appeared then.

Lady Tavington-Malfoy




From linkajarjarbinks at yahoo.com  Sun Jan  5 17:59:48 2003
From: linkajarjarbinks at yahoo.com (Matilda Trelawney)
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 09:59:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Strange SHIPS
In-Reply-To: <129.1f4a2475.2b4967c2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20030105175948.84838.qmail@web12808.mail.yahoo.com>


 Well for one, the Lucius/Draco thing had better be tear jearking, hear strings pulcking beautiful for me to except it. Otherwise, I hate incest parings, because it destroys the relationship altogether if it's not handled carefuly, and if it's written by the wrong author.
 I hate the Snape/McGonagall parings. I hated it before the movie came out, because it just dosen't make any sense. Severus is in Slytherin, Minerva is in Gryffindor. Last time I checked, Slytherins hated all Gryffindors, and Severus was the perfect example of a Slytherin stereotype. So why in the world would he suddenly be falling head-over-heels the perfect example of Gryffindor stereo type? They're too far apart for anything to happen, folks! Wake up! Now that the movie has come out, it's just scary to read any romance with Minerva and Severus. Maggie Smith and Alan Rickman do not make a pretty couple together, one, because Minerva looks TOO OLD for him!!! And yet, people still insist on writing Minerva/Severus smut. It's just gross.
 I really do like Severus slash parings though, and Snape/Hermione stories. But the Minerva/Severus stuff has got to go.
 IAmLordCassandra at aol.com wrote:What are some of the strangest pairings you've seen? My top one has to be 
Lucius/Draco...yes...Lucius Malfoy and Draco Malfoy. While the idea of an 
incestuous relationship is a little..um..0_o;   The fanfic I read with this 
pairing was actually very beautiful.  

Then there's the Snape/Harry pairing.  Snape/Lupin. Snape/Black. 
Snape/McGonagall. Snape/Hermione. 

Snape really gets around, doesn't he? 

~Cassie~ 


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From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Sun Jan  5 19:20:36 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve <bboy_mn@yahoo.com>)
Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 19:20:36 -0000
Subject: Fanfics with slash & sex...I don't get it
In-Reply-To: <3E1839B2.000001.92957@monica>
Message-ID: <ava0i4+909a@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Kathryn Cawte" <kcawte at b...>
wrote:
> 
> -------Original Message-------
> 
> From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
> Date: 05 January 2003 11:43:15


> To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Fanfics with slash & sex...I don't get it
> 
> I honestly don't understand the appeal of all these 
> slash pairings. I suppose people will write what they 
> like, but I won't be reading any of it. 
> 
> 
> Firstly - while I've read a lot of fanfic with the younger
> characters having sex I've seen very few that aren't set far 
> enough in the future that the kids are all over 16. Just because 
> a fic is harry/Ron or Ron/Hermione or whatever doesn't mean it's 
> about 12 year olds having sex. ...edited...
> 
> Secondly - what makes you think we (us authors) are changing their
> sexual preferences, with the exception of people like Percy (who we 
> know is dating Penelope) and a few other characters we don't know 
> definitively what their sexual preferences are. ...edited...
> 
> Now I'm not trying to force you to read anything you don't want to,
> I have several online friends who refuse to read slash (and a couple
> who won't read het unless they're beaten over the head with it), you
> can read what you want ...edited...

> - like you say it's a free country. But there is some very good 
> plot-driven slash out there that stays true to JKR's characters.
> ...edited...
> 
> Besides there are so few strong female characters in the books,
> compared to the guys, that we poor authors either have to write 
> slash, introduce original characters, or stick to a very limited 
> number of pairings.   ....edited... I'm not claiming that's an 
> exhaustive list but still *that's* why I write slash.
> 
> ...edited... Off to go and write some female-centered potterfic to
> slay this particulat hobby horse so I can go back to my regularly
> scheduled slash.
> 
> K

bboy_mn comments:

Well, if we have ever been dangerously 'off topic', I would say we
certainly are now.

Younger Characters -
Anytime you start writing about pre-pubecent kids, you are in
dangerous territory, both legally and morally. On the other hand,
having been a little boy and having associated with a lot of little
boys (when I was also little), I can tell you that they are sexual
beings. They know and do a lot more than you think they do. NO...
certainly nothing on the level that is seen in some slash fiction. But
boys discover this fun little spot on their bodies very young, and
frequently share that knowledge and experience with trusted friends
(other boys mostly because that's who they trust. Trust being a very
big part of it). And as the reach the border of and just cross the
border into puberty, the 'fun' sensations intensify, as do the fun
activities. Usually, when the get well into puberty and they start
focusing more on relationships than enjoying this new found 'fun' part
of their body, and the desire and interest in having 'fun' with their
friends fades away.

Most fan fiction author try to draw the lines at 13 and 16. No sex
under 13, as are the rules of most slash sites, and no sex with an
older person (+18) unless the characters are at least 16. I know to
someone outside the slash community, that doesn't sound like much of a
concession, but it does draw lines that are somewhat consistent with
reality. 

Many slash sites have more strict rules where no one under 16 (16
being the age of consent in a majority of the world) can be portrayed
in sexual activity, with others the line is 18. So the while the slash
community may seem like an absolute free for all, it does have some
standards. Most open slash archives will not allow pre-pubescent
sexual activity. Websites belonging to individuals are another matter.

Sexual Preference-
British boys boarding school are notorious for... how should I say
this... boys turning to each other for comfort and more importantly
refief; if you know what I mean. But as indicated in the paragraph
above, this is usually about sharing a new found experience and
pleasure with someone you trust. In a sense, it is about discover and
self-discovery with the help of trusted friends. Again, when they get
deep into puberty, the focus changes to relationships rather than
discovering and enjoying this pleasurable part of your body. Although,
 it's away nice to have a trusted friend willing to lend a helping
hand (sorry about the pun).

So, even though this activity is very common (although not a
majority), it is not about sexual preference. In this time of
discovery, it is about trust... and... well... it does feel good.

Who reads this 'trash'-
As hard as it is to believe, a majority of the readers and many many
of the writers are girls in their teens and twenties. My two biggest
fans are housewives in their middle to late 20's with sons (and
daughters) of their own (whom they love and protect dearly). There is
just something sexy they find in the idea of two guys getting
together. Just like straight guys have an obcession with two women
getting together.

Sex, sex, and more sex-
Not really. I know that's hard to believe when these stories are full
of sex, but life itself is full of sex, and like real life, slash
stories are about love and relationships. OK, some of them are sex,
sex, and more sex, but you are more likely to find these in an erotic
story archive rather than in a slash or fan fiction archive. The sex,
sex, sex stories are also, usually, not very good stories; no plot,
not character developement, etc.... 

I track the lives of my characters from self-discovery at age 13 to
the fulfillment of a long loving relationship at age 38. Hearts ache
and break, love conquers all, they struggle through the hardest, near
fatal of times, and they enjoy the best of love and life. Currently, I
have plans for stories that go to age 38 for the characters. I have
written over 500,000 words this year with many stories still unwritten
or unfinished, and the foundation of my stories from begining to end
is Love, Trust, and Affection. These are the important things in life,
the things that carry you through the hard times, and make the good
times, truly good times. If you have a relationship built around
genuine love, trust, and affection, then you probably have a pretty
solid relationship.

The doctor said, 'don't do that'.-
Man walks into a doctors office and said to the doc, "Doc, everytime I
lift my arm like this, it hurts." The doctor relied, "Then, don't do
that."

Slash is fantasy, pure deep and extreme fantasy. The stories reflect
the author fantasies; fantasies that are never played out in reality.
Slash Fan fiction is fantasy fiction of fantasy fiction, it is about
as ficticious and as fantasy-ed as it can possibley be. In case you
are worried about those poor 'kids' having sex, remember it's not
real. It's all fake. Pure fantasy. There are no kids because it's all
FAKE.

Certainly, if it doesn't appeal to you, you shouldn't read it. But for
those it does appeal to, it is usually contained in newsgroups and
archives of like minded people. Very hard for someone to randomly
stumble across it and not understand what it is before they start
reading. 

It is standard practice to rate all stories at the top in the header
area, and give a brief explaination as to why it is rated that way. To
warn that it is slash, to give the pairings, and to give a brief story
summary. Many contain a descriptive paragraph with a detailed
slash/same-sex warning. Seek and you will find, don't seek and you
probably won't find. It's called free choice.

Just a few (hopefully, non-inflamatory) thoughts on the subject.

bboy_mn 

  




From abigailnus at yahoo.com  Sun Jan  5 19:55:02 2003
From: abigailnus at yahoo.com (abigailnus <abigailnus@yahoo.com>)
Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 19:55:02 -0000
Subject: Fanfics with slash & sex...I don't get it
In-Reply-To: <3E1839B2.000001.92957@monica>
Message-ID: <ava2im+9c0m@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Kathryn Cawte" <kcawte at b...> wrote:
> 
> 
> -------Original Message-------
> 
> From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
> Date: 05 January 2003 11:43:15
> To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Fanfics with slash & sex...I don't get it
> 
> I honestly don't understand the appeal of all these 
> slash pairings. I suppose people will write what they 
> like, but I won't be reading any of it. I like the 
> characters too much as they are written to go changing 
> their sexual preference on them! 
> 
> Secondly - what makes you think we (us authors) are changing their sexual
> preferences, with the exception of people like Percy (who we know is dating
> Penelope) and a few other characters we don't know definitively what their
> sexual preferences are. How do you know there aren't already gay characters
> in the books? You seem to be working on the principle that all characters
> are hetersexual unless they definitively declare themselves to be gay, I
> prefer to assume that unless I have been given evidence either way a
> character's sexual preferences are totally undefined and I can pair them
> with any character I want.

Well, statistically speaking, it's perfectly valid to assume that a person 
is heterosexual until informed otherwise, because you have a 85-90% 
chance of being right.  Putting that aside for the moment, it seems to 
me that quite a bit of slash fanfic in the HP universe involves characters 
- at least one half of the pair - who are demonstrably straight.  I admit 
that there is no evidence on the sexual orientation of most of the adult 
characters, but a lot of slash pairings involve the trio, and there I think 
the evidence is incotrovertible.  Both Harry and Ron have responded 
sexually to members of the opposite sex, on more than one occasion 
and with more than more person.  The only member of the Trio who 
*might* be said to be on sexually ambiguous ground is Hermione - her 
feelings towards the three men in her life are unclear, I suspect not 
only to us and to them, but also to herself.  But then, there's very little 
in the way of lesbian slash fanfic, isn't there?  

The argument can be made that these are children, that their sexuality 
is as much a mystery to them as it is to us.  I'm not gay and I've never 
discussed this with a gay person, but from what I've read, my 
understanding is that most gay people know what they are from a very 
young age, even if they don't understand it, or don't want to accept it.  
I don't think the issue of Harry and Ron wanting to conceal their true 
preferences from their environment applies here either.  We know that 
Harry's attraction to Cho, for example, is genuine and not an affectation.  
We also know that it embarasses him, and Ron's reaction to the opposite 
sex is also of the 'girls have cooties' variety - note his reaction to Percy's 
having a  girlfriend as late as PoA.  Under those circumstances, it hardly 
seems that either of them would want to put on such an act in order to 
seem straight.

I think, however, that I actually have a canon that makes the orientation 
of the Trio clear without requiring any introspection on their part, and 
which neatly circumvents whatever inhbitions they might have.  I'm 
referring to the Veelas' dance at the QWC.  Harry and Ron both react to 
the Veelas, Hermione doesn't.  I admit that we've seen no evidence as 
to how the Veelas work their charm, but isn't it a fair assumption that 
they create the image of the ultimate female object of desire?  If that's 
the case, then people whose object of desire is not female - straight 
women and gay men - wouldn't be affected by them.

In fact, I think Veela magic may also point out to us the only canonically 
gay character in the series.  At the meeting with the champions' families 
before the Third Task, Harry notices that Bill has caught Fleur's eye.  We 
already know that Fleur is not above using Veela magic to attract men.  
We also know that it's not necessary for her to be interacting with men 
in order to affect them - Ron catches a dose of her magic while she's 
using it on Cedric.  Why then is Bill not shown reacting to her?  There are 
only two possibilities - either Fleur didn't try to use Veela magic on Bill or 
she did use it and it had no effect on him.  

Now, I suppose the argument could be made that Fleur feels 
uncomfortable enchanting Bill, as she still holds Ron partly responsible 
for her sister's rescue, but that doesn't make much sense to me.  Even 
if she won't use magic on him, why don't we see her talk to him?  She's 
a beautiful  girl even without magic, and Bill is only supposed to be a few 
years older than she is - I suspect she's received the attentions of men 
far older than him.  I think a compelling argument can be made that Bill 
is gay.  For one thing, it would explain why his mother, constantly on his 
case to cut his hair and look respectable, doesn't seem to be pushing him 
towards marriage.

Abigail

Oh, and by the way, Kathryn, you were complaining about the paucity 
of interesting female characters in HP canon.  My only serious 
involvement (as a reader) with fanfic was 5 years ago when I was really 
into X-Files fanfic, and if you think you've got problems I suggest you try 
writing stories with only one female character of any significance.   





From mb2910 at hotmail.com  Sun Jan  5 20:09:26 2003
From: mb2910 at hotmail.com (Meira B)
Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 22:09:26 +0200
Subject: Strange SHIPS
Message-ID: <F147dy3jiQAVITT1Q9M0000a1da@hotmail.com>

Cassie:
What are some of the strangest pairings you've seen? My top one has to be 
Lucius/Draco...yes...Lucius Malfoy and Draco Malfoy. While the idea of an 
incestuous relationship is a little..um..0_o;   The fanfic I read with this 
pairing was actually very beautiful.

Then there's the Snape/Harry pairing.  Snape/Lupin. Snape/Black.
Snape/McGonagall. Snape/Hermione.

Snape really gets around, doesn't he?


Me:
I don't mind Snape/Harry. Some of the fics out there depicting this ship are 
very nice indeed.
::cough::Mirror of Maybe and Telanu's Tea Series::cough::
I don't mind Snape/Lupin or Black
I find Snape/Hermione a bit disturbing, probably since I haven't read any 
*good* S/Hr fanfics, and I never ran across a S/McG fic yet.

The ships that *REALLY* squick me are Fred/George and Harry/Sirius.
Another one that squicks me, and I'm agreeing with Cassie here, is the 
Draco/Lucius ship. Oh, and I shouldn't forget to mention all the 
human/tentacled things or innanimate objects ships that I've heard about 
(but never came across them).

My favorite ships are Snape/Harry, Harry/Draco, Remus/Sirius, but I'll read 
anything if it's well written and if the characterization, spelling, grammar 
are good as well (including HET and GEN *g*).

*waving various ship flags*
Meira

"I hear, I admit, but I have a voice too, and for good or evil mine is the 
speech that cannot be silenced"
~Heart of Darkness / Joseph Conrad~


_________________________________________________________________
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From urbana at charter.net  Sun Jan  5 20:27:06 2003
From: urbana at charter.net (Anne <urbana@charter.net>)
Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 20:27:06 -0000
Subject: Strange SHIPS
In-Reply-To: <129.1f4a2475.2b4967c2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <ava4eq+kb7c@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, IAmLordCassandra at a... wrote:

> Then there's the Snape/Harry pairing.  

I don't have a problem with slash and actually can sort of imagine 
Sirius/Lupin, but Snape/Harry?? Ewww. Sorry. Not to mention the 
inappropriateness (to say the least) of teacher/student 
relationships, especially in a boarding school setting.

>Snape/Lupin. Snape/Black. 

Very realistic - NOT!! AFAIK Snape despises both of them, so why 
would he be involved with either romantically?? Obviously this is a 
fanfic fantasy.

> Snape/McGonagall. 

The least implausible of these pairings, IMO, though I've kind of 
thought McGonagall and DD might have something going ;-)


>Snape/Hermione.

Beyond EWWWW (see above)... Hermione doesn't worship authority nearly 
to be interested in Snape, much less for this pairing to work. Now 
Hermione/Percy could be possible, if only Percy didn't suck up to 
Crouch Sr. so much! No, I don't really see Hermione with any teachers 
or several-years-older prefects, and I doubt that JKR does either.


> Snape really gets around, doesn't he? 

According to fan fic anyway!

Anne U
(suspects some of these pairings are projections of the authors' own 
desires...substitute [character name] for [author] ;-)










From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Sun Jan  5 20:30:00 2003
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (Catherine Coleman <catherine@cator-manor.demon.co.uk>)
Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 20:30:00 -0000
Subject: ADMIN:  Sunday Chat
Message-ID: <ava4k8+esb6@eGroups.com>

Hi everyone,

The mods are currently rather pink-faced, as it has been pointed out 
to them that they haven't let everyone know that the Sunday Chat 
(7pm GMT onwards) location has changed.

Chatters are now to be found in the HP Yahoo chat room.

Simply enter any Yahoo chatroom, and type:

/ join HP:1

That should find us!  Alternatively, the same room (HP:1) can be 
accessed via Cheeta.

All newcomers are very welcome!

Catherine
The Magical Moderator Team




From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com  Sun Jan  5 21:42:07 2003
From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn)
Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 15:42:07 -0600
Subject: Sorting Hat
References: <1041764185.716.65785.m12@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <3E18A6AF.BD96C2E5@pacificpuma.com>



The problem I had with the http://hogwarts.7dragons.net/sortinghat.html
sorting hat, is even when I picked answers randomly, it picks Slytherin
all the time. I kinda think its either picking random and ignoring
answewrs (and is stuck) or it is set up to pick Slytherin most of the
time?

The only other one I found at the Warner Bros UK site I found put me in
HufflePuff.

However, I can easily go into any house as I seem to have have equal
traits for any of them..

Jazmyn




From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk  Sun Jan  5 22:04:20 2003
From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte)
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 22:04:20 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Sorting Hat
References: <3E18A6AF.BD96C2E5@pacificpuma.com>
Message-ID: <3E18ABE4.000001.96225@monica>

I just tried this one (http://timidity.org/tests/sortinghat.html) which
someone on here recommended. I tried it twice because there were a couple of
questions that I thought I could answer in two different ways while still
being truthful. The first time I got Slytherin (no surprise there, I often
do) the second time I got ... Gryffindor ?! Huh? I've never been sorted into
Gryffindor before. Ravenclaw, yes, I'm a postgrad student who wants to go
into university teaching and research so I'm never terribly shocked even
though I think I'm better suited to Slytherin, but Gryffindor! Wow - I'm
stunned. Especially since I answered a couple of questions in a way that
struck me as *less* Gryffindorish than when I first tried.

K

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From fbrown at acay.com.au  Sun Jan  5 22:46:52 2003
From: fbrown at acay.com.au (Fiona)
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 09:46:52 +1100
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Sorting Hat
In-Reply-To: <3E18A6AF.BD96C2E5@pacificpuma.com>
Message-ID: <AMEALKNBENGHIGPOHOFMIEKPEDAA.fbrown@acay.com.au>


The problem I had with the http://hogwarts.7dragons.net/sortinghat.html
sorting hat, is even when I picked answers randomly, it picks Slytherin
all the time. I kinda think its either picking random and ignoring
answewrs (and is stuck) or it is set up to pick Slytherin most of the
time?


I just did this one and it put me in Hufflepuff.   Hufflepuff??  I'm always
a Gryffindor, except very occasionally I'm a Ravenclaw.  But Hufflepuff?

Fiona
bewildered ...



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From zeff8 at attbi.com  Sun Jan  5 22:55:31 2003
From: zeff8 at attbi.com (Prof_chase)
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 14:55:31 -0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] ADMIN:  Sunday Chat
References: <ava4k8+esb6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <001801c2b50d$8cb8f890$9c01f50c@mac>

I wonderd where you had all gone to!

----- Original Message -----
From: <catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk>
To: <HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 05, 2003 12:30 PM
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] ADMIN: Sunday Chat


> Hi everyone,
>
> The mods are currently rather pink-faced, as it has been pointed out
> to them that they haven't let everyone know that the Sunday Chat
> (7pm GMT onwards) location has changed.
>
> Chatters are now to be found in the HP Yahoo chat room.
>
> Simply enter any Yahoo chatroom, and type:
>
> / join HP:1
>
> That should find us!  Alternatively, the same room (HP:1) can be
> accessed via Cheeta.
>
> All newcomers are very welcome!
>
> Catherine
> The Magical Moderator Team
>
>
> ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________
>
> Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the group's Admin Files!
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/
>
> Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material
from posts to which you're replying!
>
> Is your message...
> An announcement of merchandise, news etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements.
> Movie-related? Send it to HPFGU-Movie.
> Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups.
> None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter.
> Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods --
MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com
>
> Unsubscribing? Email HPFGU-OTChatter-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
> ____________________________________________________________
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>





From risako at nexusanime.com  Sun Jan  5 23:13:57 2003
From: risako at nexusanime.com (Melissa McCarthy)
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 19:13:57 -0400
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: 7dragons Sorting Hat and Other Hats
References: <av89c5+l23g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <01b001c2b510$209783e0$63a694d1@vaio>

So far there's, what, three other people now that the 7dragons hat has put
into Hufflepuff for reasons unknown.  I think it has a Hufflepuff quota to
meet every day ^_^

Catlady said:
> I have a LOT of personal comments on it, but will put just one in this
> post:
> "I prefer: 1) classic elegance 2) trendy fashion"
> Suppose I don't like either, but do like classic slobbiness or
> extravagant eccentricity?

That's my problem with it too.  The questions are a bit too cut-and-dried.
For instance:
> I don't like:
> 1) comic books 2) historical nonfiction

I happen to love both, so I have to decide "okay, is the question asking me
to choose escapism/reality or fun/work? how am I feeling about both today?
what is the hat most likely to think if I pick 1 or 2? where do I *want* it
to sort me?"  (Granted, there's not going to *be* a perfect Hat, so this is
really just pointless whining ^_^)

For the person who was looking for other Hats, there's one here:
http://onewaystreet.nu/hp/hat/
It's a very easy one to manipulate because each question has a Hufflepuff
answer, a Gryffindor answer, a Ravenclaw answer, and a Slytherin answer, so
I find it works best with people who are new to Harry Potter and don't
already know where they'd like to be.

Melissa






From catlady at wicca.net  Mon Jan  6 00:55:51 2003
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston) <catlady@wicca.net>)
Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 00:55:51 -0000
Subject: Sorting, Shipping, Ceiling Wax
Message-ID: <avak6n+48us@eGroups.com>

RE: Sorting Hat

Catlady quoted:

<< I would rather: 1) play with finger-paints 2) play with building 
blocks >>

What is this question trying to find out?

Mary Ann wrote:

<< On the subject of houses, the Vitual Hogwarts site puts me in 
Hufflepuff. That's accurate, but I'd rather be in Gryffindor. ;) The 
WB one puts me in Slytherin, which is completely wrong. I wonder if 
that's because I've had pet rats before, and that's the pet I'd bring 
with me to Hogwarts? I mean, I'd *return* the satchel of galleons, 
which isn't a Slytherin-ish thing to do, is it? >>

Before the first movie came out, I played with WB's Sorting Hat and 
got the impression that only the Satchel of Galleons question matter, 
with Return for Gryffindor, Charity for Hufflepuff, Save for 
Ravenclaw, and Spend for Slytherin, but I returned to it after the 
first movie and had a hell of a time getting Sorted into any House 
but Gryffindor. I couldn't find out the system at all! I wonder if 
they changed it to a randomizer?

Where is the Virtual Hogwarts Sorting Hat? 

Tituk briefcandle wrote:

<< Here's one: http://timidity.org/tests/sortinghat.html >>

That one is obviously no good, it put me in *Hufflepuff*!!! I messed 
around with it quite a while and as far I can tell, the only question 
that matters (and I don't agree with their answers) is:

4. Let's say you are in love right now. What kind of risks do you 
take with your feelings? 
1-(Gryff) I will risk it all and let me feelings be known, even if it 
turns out they don't care about me at all.
2-(Puff)  I don't necessarily take risks, but if I am asked I will be 
honest about my feelings.
3-(Claw)  I will send a friend to find out how they feel about me 
first before I do anything.
4-(Slyth) I will do whatever it takes as long as they love me back in 
the end.

Here's another Sorting Hat: 
http://www.angelfire.com/tx5/worldofmagic/sortinghat.html#Self-Exam

Jazmyn wrote:

<< The problem I had with the 
http://hogwarts.7dragons.net/sortinghat.html sorting hat, is even 
when I picked answers randomly, it picks Slytherin all the time. I 
kinda think its either picking random and ignoring answers (and is 
stuck) or it is set up to pick Slytherin most of the time? >>

A while ago, I experimented on that Hat with what answers would lead 
to what Houses, and I managed to get Sorted into each of them, so it 
wasn't stuck then.

Melissa wrote:

<< That's my problem with it too. The questions are a bit too 
cut-and-dried. For instance: "I don't like: 1) comic books 2) 
historical nonfiction." I happen to love both, >>

And I want to answer that question: "It depends on the particular 
book". I'm not a comix fan, but when I was in high school, I loved 
reading "Luke Cage: Hero for Hire" and "The Spirit" -- my brother WAS 
a comix fan so I tried all the dozens of series he read. I AM kind of 
a history/archaeology fan, but some books on interesting topics are 
so badly written that they put me right to sleep.

<< For the person who was looking for other Hats, there's one here:   
http://onewaystreet.nu/hp/hat/  It's a very easy one to manipulate 
because each question has a Hufflepuff answer, a Gryffindor answer, 
a Ravenclaw answer, and a Slytherin answer, so I find it works best 
with people who are new to Harry Potter and don't already know where 
they'd like to be. >>

Once upon a time, Melanie Ravenclaw (where has she been the last two 
years?) had a delightful Sorting Hat, despite each question having 
one answer per House. From memory, one was, 

If you went to work at the Nimbus Broomstick Company, would you 
rather work:
1) as a test pilot for new broomsticks
2) designing new and improved broomsticks
3) in the factory
4) in sales and marketting

Another was something like, I
f you were roaming the halls of Hogwarts after lights-out, the reason 
would most probably be:
1) I had to save the world from Voldemort
2) I wanted to read a book that was in the Restricted Section
3) It was an accident -- I had lost track of time, so I was going 
right back to my House.
4) Harry Potter and his friends were out after lights-out, too!

re: Shipping

bboy_mn wrote:

<< I track the lives of my characters >>

Do you write fanfic, Steve? Am I an idiot not to know about it? Or 
are you writing Original Fiction?

Heidi wrote:

<< I think that Ron, if Fleur threw her full magic at him, might end 
up in a sexual situation without it being OOC at all. >>

I don't Fleur would have to throw more than a handful of her magic 
might at Ron to seduce him. He is a teen boy with hormones ... he 
was in danger of jumping out of the Top Box because of the dancing 
Veelas. 

Lord Cassandra wrote:

<< What are some of the strangest pairings you've seen? My top one 
has to be Lucius/Draco...yes...Lucius Malfoy and Draco Malfoy. >>

How old was Draco in the story?

<< Snape really gets around, doesn't he? >>

That's because he's so sexy! 
I was pointed once to a celebration of Severus and all possible 
pairings: http://www.sockiipress.org/~luthien/snapeff/

... I was pointed particularly to Severus/Firebolt (yes, the 
broomstick):
http://www.sockiipress.org/~luthien/snapeff/archive/whoopee.html

Anne U wrote:

<<Snape/Harry?? Ewww. Sorry. Not to mention the inappropriateness (to 
say the least) of teacher/student relationships, especially in a 
boarding school setting. >>

Some of them are set after Harry finished school, maybe even grew up. 
Not that I mind student/teacher in fiction.

<< <<Snape/Lupin. Snape/Black.>> Very realistic - NOT!! AFAIK Snape 
despises both of them, so why would he be involved with either 
romantically?? Obviously this is a fanfic fantasy. >>

A cliche plot of Muggle het romantic movies and novels is the man and 
the woman who hate each other falling into love with each other. In 
some stories, like The Shop on Main Street and You've Got Mail, they 
fall in love under secret identities. In some other stories, for some 
reason they have to go on a dangerous secret mission as a team, or 
one is gravely wounded/ill and the other one has to nurse him/her 
back to health, and the long time they are forced to spend together, 
depending on each other, gives them a chance to overcome their 
previous impressions. That could be used for a Severus/Sirius, 
Severus/Remus, or Severus/Harry plot. I personally don't like any of 
those ships, but accidentally first-drafted a Severus/Remus of that 
type.  

Besides, when I try to figure out why Severus so particularly hated 
James and Sirius and Remus (and probably Peter, but I don't have 
canon for that), some of the possibilities that spring to my mind 
involve erotic attraction. Poor Sevvie, going through pubescence, 
finding himself having very naughty thoughts about James or Sirius 
-- suffers from severe internalized homophobia, hates them for making 
him have those *bad* feelings that he wants not to have, maybe even 
thinks they did it intentionally, by putting a spell on him ... Canon 
indicates that James and Sirius were popular and attractive boys, so 
it makes sense to me that a gay classmate would fancy one or both of 
them. (By "attractive", I mean people were attracted to them, as in 
the fond tone of Rosmerta and McGonagall reminiscing about them 
(fond, not that the grown-up witches had the hots for them); however, 
I do have canon for Sirius having been handsome: the photo of him at 
James & Lily's wedding is described as a handsome boy with laughter 
in his eyes.)

<< << Snape/McGonagall. >> The least implausible of these pairings, 
IMO, though I've kind of thought McGonagall and DD might have 
something going ;-) >>

Surely not. Surely McGonagall and Hooch are a long-established and 
very faithful couple. [And I am quite convinced that Severus is 
exclusively gay in his orientation.] It sometimes seems to me that 
Dumbledore and Pomfrey might have something going on... 

<< << Snape/Hermione. >> Beyond EWWWW (see above)... Hermione doesn't 
worship authority nearly enough to be interested in Snape, much less 
for this pairing to work. >>

Surely this ship has NOTHING to do with Hermione worshipping 
authority! Hermione would have to be grown-up, because she would 
have to be the strong one of the couple, gathering up the 
pieces of heroically shattered Severus and giving him something to 
live for, something to recover for. (That's another cliche romance 
plot.)

Matilda Trelawney wrote:

<< I hate the Snape/McGonagall parings. I hated it before the 
movie came out, because it just dosen't make any sense. Severus is 
in Slytherin, Minerva is in Gryffindor. Last time I checked, 
Slytherins hated all Gryffindors, and Severus was the perfect 
example of a Slytherin stereotype. So why in the world would he 
suddenly be falling head-over-heels the perfect example of Gryffindor 
stereotype? >>

Severus isn't the *perfect* example of a Slytherin stereotype, 
because he turned against evil. 

Minerva isn't the perfect example of a Gryffindor stereotype, because 
we never see her questing or fighting or even playing Quidditch. 

Severus and Minerva have never shown any signs of hating each other. 
In fact, they seem collegial to me. When McGonagall said she couldn't 
bear to look Severus Snape in the face again if Gryffindor screwed up 
badly at Quidditch again (book 1, that is why she needs Harry as 
Seeker), that sounded more like friendly rivalry than like bitter 
emnity. Also, they seemed to be working as a team when they sent 
Lockhart off to rescue Ginny as a way to get rid of him and punish 
him for his bragging.

<< They're too far apart for anything to happen, folks! Wake up! Now 
that the movie has come out, it's just scary to read any romance with 
Minerva and Severus. Maggie Smith and Alan Rickman do not make a 
pretty couple together, one, because Minerva looks TOO OLD for him!!! 
And yet, people still insist on writing Minerva/Severus smut. It's 
just gross. >>

The movie is NOT CANON. According to JKR, Minerva doesn't look old 
like Maggie Smith. Her own picture of Minerva is in the main group's 
photo section: http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/lst 
 -- click on the second folder "Harry Potter and Me". In the folder, 
click on the fifth one, DursleysDoorstep -- it shows McGonagall, 
Dumbledore, and Hagrid all clustered around baby Harry. See her black 
hair and No Wrinkles. She looks maybe 30, for a Muggle. JKR has said 
in interviews that wizards live longer than Muggles: Dumbledore is 
150. She implied that they age slower. I have been known to post on 
the main list about at what rate do wizards age, compared to Muggles?

However, according to JKR, there IS an age difference between Severus 
and Minerva ... she has said in those interviews that Sevvie is 35 or 
26 and Minerva is a spritely 70.  McGonagall was Snape's *teacher* 
when he was a schoolboy. For this reason, I get really irritated by 
Severus/Minerva fics that have them having been students together.

re: Ceiling Wax

When I was a child and heard the song "Puff, the Magic Dragon" with 
its Alice-in-Wonderland-ish line about "shoes and ships and sealing 
wax and other magic things", I always heard it as "ceiling wax", 
which I imagined to be similar to floor wax.




From chrisnlorrie at yahoo.com  Mon Jan  6 01:18:37 2003
From: chrisnlorrie at yahoo.com (alora <chrisnlorrie@yahoo.com>)
Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 01:18:37 -0000
Subject: Sorting Hat
In-Reply-To: <3E18A6AF.BD96C2E5@pacificpuma.com>
Message-ID: <avalhd+iqno@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, jazmyn <jazmyn at p...> wrote:
http://hogwarts.7dragons.net/sortinghat.html


Once again, I am sorted into Hufflepuff!  But then, I knew I 
was ;).  I love taking all these tests......*sigh*  Don't you wish 
there really was a Hogwarts?  Am I the only 35 yr old that has an 
active imagination? ;)

Alora




From zeff8 at attbi.com  Mon Jan  6 02:35:36 2003
From: zeff8 at attbi.com (Prof_chase)
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 18:35:36 -0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Sorting Hat
References: <avalhd+iqno@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <006401c2b52c$4b5fc030$9c01f50c@mac>

everyone I got to take that test got sorted into hufflepuff
so..

----- Original Message -----
From: <chrisnlorrie at yahoo.com>
To: <HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 05, 2003 5:18 PM
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Sorting Hat


> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, jazmyn <jazmyn at p...> wrote:
> http://hogwarts.7dragons.net/sortinghat.html
>
>
> Once again, I am sorted into Hufflepuff!  But then, I knew I
> was ;).  I love taking all these tests......*sigh*  Don't you wish
> there really was a Hogwarts?  Am I the only 35 yr old that has an
> active imagination? ;)
>
> Alora
>
>
> ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________
>
> Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the group's Admin Files!
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>





From gabolamx at yahoo.com.mx  Mon Jan  6 03:26:39 2003
From: gabolamx at yahoo.com.mx (Gabriela <gabolamx@yahoo.com.mx>)
Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 03:26:39 -0000
Subject: Sorting Hat
In-Reply-To: <006401c2b52c$4b5fc030$9c01f50c@mac>
Message-ID: <avat1f+9nv9@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Prof_chase" <zeff8 at a...> 
wrote:
> everyone I got to take that test got sorted into hufflepuff
> so..

Well, I took that test and it got me into Ravenclaw, I took other 
that someoned here mentioned and it got me into Ravenclaw too; te 
official site gets me into Gryffindor. My 6 year-old daughter likes 
Gryffindor but I truly believe that she's a Slytheryn.

And no, Alora, you are are not the only one wishing there existed a 
Hogwarts school; I'm 32 by the way.

Gabriela
(who still hopes to get a belated Hogwarts letter)




From urbana at charter.net  Mon Jan  6 03:30:48 2003
From: urbana at charter.net (Anne <urbana@charter.net>)
Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 03:30:48 -0000
Subject: Strange SHIPS/OC SHIPS
In-Reply-To: <158.19e2ba24.2b497b64@aol.com>
Message-ID: <avat98+1c97@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, IAmLordCassandra at a... wrote:
> 
> I remember reading a fic not too long ago making fun of Snape 
pairings where 
> Dumbledore decided to 'whore' Snape out. It was a bit twisted, but 
amusing... 
> 
> 
> What are everyone's thoughts on Original Character/HP character 
pairings? I 
> know I'm guilty of writing them, though they all contain yours 
truely as the 
> OC and are mainly for personal amusement/enjoyment. 
> 
> ~Cassie~ 

Well, I am very taken with the pairing of Snape and the OC witch 
Raven Mordent (what a name!) in Stacy Hart's novel "Darkly Inclined", 
currently in progress on Schnoogle.com. I haven't read a lot of HP 
fan fics (yet) because I only started reading them about 6-7 weeks 
ago after seeing CoS, but this is one of my favorites right now. 


Anne U
(P.S. Cassie, I read your first few pages ... interesting! :-)

 




From morrigan at byz.org  Mon Jan  6 03:45:41 2003
From: morrigan at byz.org (Vicki)
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 21:45:41 -0600
Subject: Fanfics with slash & sex...I don't get it
In-Reply-To: <20030105114313.81337.qmail@web40206.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <OCEOIOOCLDBFPDHBBCEMEEHMCLAA.morrigan@byz.org>

I'm undoubtedly going to be repeating some of what others have said, but
here's my 2 knuts all the same.

-----Original Message-----
From: Diana Lucas

>Extremely disgusting.  I'm glad my son doesn't know
>how to read my email or find fanfics online.  Triple
>yecch!

I certainly think that everyone is entitled to likes and dislikes, but the
"extremely disgusting" comment seems... rather rude, like talking down or
condemning anyone who likes that.  I'm going to just point that out while
assuming that isn't the way you meant it to come across.

>I honestly don't understand the appeal of all these
>slash pairings.  I suppose people will write what they
>like, but I won't be reading any of it.  I like the
>characters too much as they are written to go changing
>their sexual preference on them!  If the Harry Potter
>books introduced a gay/lesbian character I wouldn't
>try to pair that character up with someone of the
>opposite sex in a fanfic I wrote, so I can't see
>trying to pair up hetrosexual characters with someone
>of the same sex.

As more than one person has pointed out, we don't KNOW what any of their
sexual orientations are.  Even those characters that have shown attraction
or interest in another character of the opposite sex could in fact be
bisexual, or even unsure of his or her own homosexuality.  I would honestly
be shocked - pleasantly, but still shocked - if JKR ever introduces a
character that is queer, be it gay, lesbian or bi.  I have never heard JKR
make any sort of comment, either negative or positive, about queer folk, not
to mention I can guess that her editors and publishers would BEG for her to
change it.  Regardless of the fact that many of us would cheer such an
addition, the negative people would far outrule us.

But in truth, that's all beside the point.  People have been slashing
popular characters in fiction for a good 30 years now - this is nothing new.
People have even written dissertations and studied slash writing.  If you're
curious, I'm sure you could find some of those on the web, and those people
will undoubtedly explain it far better than I ever could.  All I can really
tell you is why *I* write slash.

>Besides, I can't see 11 to
>14-year-old children [the age span of Harry, Ron and
>Hermione from PS/SS through GoF] being written as
>having sex at all.  Why can't child characters remain
>children without people writing about them having sex?
>Yeah, free country, I know, so the writers have a
>right to write that if they wish - and I support their
>right to do it - I just refuse to read it.

The majority of people who write about sexual situations age the characters
up.  As one of the moderators for RestrictedSection.org, an NC-17 HP fanfic
archive, I had to help decide what our cutoff would be.  You'd think that
would be easy, but it wasn't.  We finally decided on 15, feeling that was
the age when teenagers really tended to start dating and doing more than
just holding hands.  JKR herself has said that there will be relationships
happening because the main characters are getting older, and that IS what
happens.  Granted, I doubt she will get into the intimate details, but it
will be there, I have no doubt.

>It's fun to dream up alternate stories for the
>characters from TV shows and movies, but the best fan
>fiction I've ever read, whether it's Star Trek, Star
>Wars, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, The X-Files or Lord of
>the Rings, has kept true to the characters as
>envisioned and outlined by the ORIGINAL
>creators/writers of the characters.

I am a complete and utter Canon Whore (tm), so I do know what you're saying.
But part of the problem is that even with canon, every person who reads the
books can interpret canon differently.  The best example I can give is
shipping - my personal canon ship is Ron/Hermione, but there are plenty of
people out there who are certain that canon suggests that Harry and Hermione
will get together.  Who's right and who's wrong?  At this point, there IS no
answer, and I personally see no problem extrapolating from what JKR has
given us so far.  It's fun to speculate, but my point is - even canon can be
argued.

>I haven't even
>ventured into Harry Potter fanfics because I won't be
>happy if I stumble onto some ribald sex scene between
>characters currently no older than 15 (as of the
>anxiously awaited OotP) or "secret lustful glances"
>between Ron and Harry.

Don't read any of my fics, hehe.  But seriously, I'll repeat what others
have said - any decent author or site has clear indications on each story as
to the pairing, the rating, and a summary.  Despite that, people will tend
to ignore them, as I know all too well.  My one R-rated story is on Fiction
Alley and is a crossover between the TV show "Sex and the City" and HP,
called "Sex in the Village."  Despite the title, summary, and rating, I
still get reviews that say "Why is this all about sex??"  Gee, I have NO
idea.  FWIW, it's actually a humor fic.

>I know I sound like a prude or some religious fanatic,
>but I swear I'm not.  I just can't fathom the appeal
>of those kinds of fanfics at all and am admitting it.

I wish I could explain to you why I or anyone else finds it interesting and
fun to write slash or sex fics.  Again, I could give you my reasons, but
they'd probably be meaningless.  I think it may just come down to taste -
some people like vanilla, some people like chocolate, some people like
peanut butter fudge ripple.  There's no right or wrong involved.

Morrigan
www.RestrictedSection.org
www.livejournal.com/users/hermorrine
www.byz.org/~morrigan/hpslash.html




From dradamsapple at yahoo.com  Mon Jan  6 05:59:17 2003
From: dradamsapple at yahoo.com (dradamsapple <dradamsapple@yahoo.com>)
Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 05:59:17 -0000
Subject: Fanfics with slash & sex...I don't get it
In-Reply-To: <20030105114313.81337.qmail@web40206.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <avb5vm+tb5n@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Diana Lucas 
<dianasdolls at y...> wrote:
>
!
> 
> I honestly don't understand the appeal of all these
> slash pairings.  I suppose people will write what they
> like, but I won't be reading any of it.  I like the
> characters too much as they are written to go changing
> their sexual preference on them!  If the Harry Potter
> books introduced a gay/lesbian character I wouldn't
> try to pair that character up with someone of the
> opposite sex in a fanfic I wrote, so I can't see
> trying to pair up hetrosexual characters with someone
> of the same sex.  Besides, I can't see 11 to
> 14-year-old children [the age span of Harry, Ron and
> Hermione from PS/SS through GoF] being written as
> having sex at all.  Why can't child characters remain
> children without people writing about them having sex?
> 
> 
> Diana
> 

Diana,

As everyone is putting there two knuts in, I figured I'd tell you 
about my *interest* in  fanfics, whether slash or not.

I am a heterosexual mother of three children, very happily married 
(well, except when he doesn't take the garbage out!>G<)

I "stumbled" upon HP fanfic about 1 1/2 yrs ago, while viewing the WB 
HP site, and decided to check different things out.  I was amazed at 
all the information out there!! (yes, I had just come out of 
hibernation . . .)  I discovered BL Purdoms Psychic Serpent Trilogy, 
and became hooked on fanfiction, mainly because it was HP.
Soon after, while waiting for chapters, I discovered Cassies' Draco 
series, and then Lori's Paridigm of Uncertainty series, and on and 
on.  And all of these contain, . . . (wait for it,)  . . .sex!.  But 
not just sex as would be seen in porno flicks, (yes, saw a few of 
these too in my younger days), but real relationships; real feelings 
and emotions that I'm sure all of us have gone through, and can 
relate to.

I have to confess that I too have a hard time with sexual 
relationships among teens, but that's just the way I want it to be. 
Although I know it happens, I don't want to believe that teenagers 
have sex.  As a mother of an almost pre-pube, I CAN'T IMAGINE my son 
having sex at age 14, or 16, or even 24 for that matter!!! (He's only 
12 now, thank goodness!) But I know I have to face it when the time 
comes, and it doesn't mean that I haven't spoken to them about sex 
yet. I want them to be prepared and informed. But it doesn't mean I 
have to like it, it's just the way life is now.

 On that note, Lori Summers POU tends to be my most "prefered" 
sceries, because it seems to ME to be the most believable in what 
happens to all the characters after Hogwarts.  Plus, they're all in 
their twenties, and I tend to relate better to things that reflect my 
own life.  But just because they are younger in Cassies' DT, the 
story is absolutely hypnotizing, and I would not stop reading it 
because of a few "romantic" situations involving teens.

 I know from my own experiences that although these teen 
relationships are usually not of the same caliber as "adult" (over 
21?) pairings, they can be pretty intense.  I know  of more that one 
or two happily married people now in their thirties who started out 
as "high school sweeties" when they were 16. (including my in-laws, 
who are a little beyond 30!)  So, although real, intense, meaningful 
relationships, accompanied by sexual relationships  at age 16 is not 
what I want for my kids, it doesn't mean it can't happen. 

As far as the slash is concerned, I really started reading slash 
stories out of curiosity.  I just wanted to see what it was all 
about.  And, yes, there are a lot of terrible, plotless slash fics 
out there, as well as really bad het fics too. And although I usually 
do not seek slash out in particular, if the story is well written 
(Rhysenn's IP), and recommended, I will usually give it a try.

It really comes down to the story.  If it catches my interest, and is 
well written, the sex, or lack of really doesn't matter. (well, 
actually, Dumbledore and McGonagal might be a cute couple!!!) :-)
I hope this gives you some insight from a boring, suburban, mom's 
veiwpoint.

Anna  . . .





> 
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From bloubet at incanmonkey.com  Mon Jan  6 08:15:27 2003
From: bloubet at incanmonkey.com (bloubet at incanmonkey.com)
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 01:15:27 -0700 (MST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Strange SHIPs
In-Reply-To: <1041807870.3858.70053.m4@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <1041840926.43009@incanmonkey.com>

Matilda Trelawney writes:

>>I hate the Snape/McGonagall parings. I hated it before the movie came out, because it just dosen't make any sense. Severus is in Slytherin, Minerva is in Gryffindor. Last time I checked, Slytherins hated all Gryffindors, and Severus was the perfect example of a Slytherin stereotype. So why in the world would he suddenly be falling head-over-heels the perfect example of Gryffindor stereo type? They're too far apart for anything to happen, folks! Wake up! Now that the movie has come out, it's just scary to read any romance with Minerva and Severus. Maggie Smith and Alan Rickman do not make a pretty couple together, one, because Minerva looks TOO OLD for him!!! And yet, people still insist on writing Minerva/Severus smut. It's just gross.
I really do like Severus slash parings though, and Snape/Hermione stories. But the Minerva/Severus stuff has got to go.<<

Interesting. You object to Minerva/Severus because she's about 30 years older than he is (both adults, though), but you like Hermione/Severus stories, when he's about 30 years older than she is (and she's underage). And you object to Minerva/Severus because it's Gryffindor/Slytherin, but have no problem with Hermione/Severus, which is Gryffindor/Slytherin.

Not meaning to belittle your objections, but I'm wondering if maybe the real reason is that with Mn/Sv it's the WOMAN who's 30 years older (which is unnatural?), while with Hr/Sv the MAN is 30 years older, and that's socially acceptable. (I truly am just curious. I'm in my 40s and have noticed that while it's perfectly acceptable for men my age to date women in their early 20s, people have been seriously disturbed by comments from me that men in their early 20s should be fair game for me. <grin> )

bel



From macloudt at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Jan  6 10:07:45 2003
From: macloudt at yahoo.co.uk (Mary Ann <macloudt@yahoo.co.uk>)
Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 10:07:45 -0000
Subject: Birthday Greetings!
Message-ID: <avbkhh+a09s@eGroups.com>

:::::hangs balloons and streamers from the ceiling and places a large 
cake on the table:::::

We're celebrating the first List birthday of 2003!  Yes, our first 
birthday of the year is that of Doreen Iowa, aka The Corn Patch 
Witch.  Doreen can be greeted on the List or at 
corn_patch_witch at yahoo.com

Have a happy day, Doreen, and I hope you get lots of HP goodies!

Mary Ann
(TBA)




From HebrideanBlack2002 at hotmail.com  Mon Jan  6 10:09:26 2003
From: HebrideanBlack2002 at hotmail.com (Wendy St. John)
Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 10:09:26 +0000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] re: Sorting, Ceiling Wax
Message-ID: <F937xls6HOa7NDS2z1J000186a2@hotmail.com>

I've used one of Catlady's messages to reply to, in which she quoted a 
number of different people, and I have snipped quite a bit here and there. 
So, I hope I've attributed all the quotes properly - if not, I apologise in 
advance!

Mary Ann wrote:

><< On the subject of houses, the Vitual Hogwarts site puts me in
>Hufflepuff. That's accurate, but I'd rather be in Gryffindor. ;) The
>WB one puts me in Slytherin, which is completely wrong. I wonder if
>that's because I've had pet rats before, and that's the pet I'd bring
>with me to Hogwarts? I mean, I'd *return* the satchel of galleons,
>which isn't a Slytherin-ish thing to do, is it? >>

Catlady answered:

>Before the first movie came out, I played with WB's Sorting Hat and
>got the impression that only the Satchel of Galleons question matter,
>with Return for Gryffindor, Charity for Hufflepuff, Save for
>Ravenclaw, and Spend for Slytherin, but I returned to it after the
>first movie and had a hell of a time getting Sorted into any House
>but Gryffindor. I couldn't find out the system at all! I wonder if
>they changed it to a randomizer?

Now me:

I agree that they have probably changed the site. About a year ago, when I 
first tried it, it always put me in Gryffindor, and after playing around 
with it, I guessed it was because I chose an owl as my animal. That seemed 
to be the only questin which made a difference. I went there recently, and 
it put me in Slytherin. Not sure why, though - I haven't gone back and tried 
to figure it out.

Tituk briefcandle wrote:

><< Here's one: http://timidity.org/tests/sortinghat.html >>

Catlady answered:

>That one is obviously no good, it put me in *Hufflepuff*!!! I messed
>around with it quite a while and as far I can tell, the only question
>that matters (and I don't agree with their answers) is:
>
>4. Let's say you are in love right now. What kind of risks do you
>take with your feelings?
>1-(Gryff) I will risk it all and let me feelings be known, even if it
>turns out they don't care about me at all.
>2-(Puff)  I don't necessarily take risks, but if I am asked I will be
>honest about my feelings.
>3-(Claw)  I will send a friend to find out how they feel about me
>first before I do anything.
>4-(Slyth) I will do whatever it takes as long as they love me back in
>the end.

Now me:
I don't think that can be the only question that matters - my answer to that 
question was number 2, but the hat still put me in Gryffindor. So there must 
be something else going on, as well. :-)


>Here's another Sorting Hat:
>http://www.angelfire.com/tx5/worldofmagic/sortinghat.html#Self-Exam

Now me:
This  one put me in Ravenclaw, with Gryffindor a close second.

Jazmyn wrote:

><< The problem I had with the
>http://hogwarts.7dragons.net/sortinghat.html sorting hat, is even
>when I picked answers randomly, it picks Slytherin all the time. I
>kinda think its either picking random and ignoring answers (and is
>stuck) or it is set up to pick Slytherin most of the time? >>

Now me:
I had the opposite problem with this hat way back when I first tried it. It 
would put me in either Gryffindor or Ravenclaw, and in the process of trying 
to figure it out, I tried to get sorted into the other houses, to see if I 
could, and I had a *devil* of a time getting sorted into Slytherin. I found 
that what I was assuming were typical Slytherin answers didn't work (like 
would you rather succeed or conquer). I had to really concentrate on "doing 
anything to succeed" and answer the questions that way, and I did finally 
get it to sort me into Slytherin. Recently, the hat has consistently put me 
in Ravenclaw, so I think they may have changed it.

Not sure who wrote this: (sorry!)
><< For the person who was looking for other Hats, there's one here:
>http://onewaystreet.nu/hp/hat/  It's a very easy one to manipulate
>because each question has a Hufflepuff answer, a Gryffindor answer,
>a Ravenclaw answer, and a Slytherin answer, so I find it works best
>with people who are new to Harry Potter and don't already know where
>they'd like to be. >>

Now me:
Put me in Gryffindor, which came as a surprise, as I thought my answers 
tended to be more Ravenclaw-ish in general. So, after trying these various 
new sorting hats, I'm *still* not sure if I'm a Gryffindor or a Ravenclaw. 
How annoying. And what the heck am I doing spending so much time wondering 
about this, anyway?! <G>


And finally, Catlady wrote:

>re: Ceiling Wax
>
>When I was a child and heard the song "Puff, the Magic Dragon" with
>its Alice-in-Wonderland-ish line about "shoes and ships and sealing
>wax and other magic things", I always heard it as "ceiling wax",
>which I imagined to be similar to floor wax.
>

Now me:
LOL! Yes, I thought the same thing. Actually, even now, that's how I spell 
ceiling wax in my mind when I hear or sing that song! <G>



Cheers!
Wendy

_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE* 
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus




From heidit at netbox.com  Mon Jan  6 10:19:25 2003
From: heidit at netbox.com (heiditandy)
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 05:19:25 -0500
Subject: Happy Birthday to Carole Estes
Message-ID: <024501c2b56d$17139fe0$0301a8c0@Frodo>

Also, we wanted to wish a very happy birthday to Carole Estes, longtime
listie and author (with listmod Penny) of A Sirius Affair
(http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Penny_and_Carole/)
<http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Penny_and_Carole/)  >     and
(solo) A Sirius Change http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Carole/
<http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Penny_and_Carole/>  - may your
year be filled with Marauders and OoTP, and may your day feature cakes
and a birthday filk from Lord Randemort!
 
 
Heidi, fill in birthday elf


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From voicelady at mymailstation.com  Mon Jan  6 10:57:38 2003
From: voicelady at mymailstation.com (voicelady)
Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 06:57:38 EDT
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Happy Birthday to Carole Estes
Message-ID: <id.06012003065738.00000@FPE>

Happy Birthday, Carole!  Hope you have a wonderful year!



From linkajarjarbinks at yahoo.com  Mon Jan  6 16:04:09 2003
From: linkajarjarbinks at yahoo.com (Matilda Trelawney)
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 08:04:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Strange SHIPs
In-Reply-To: <1041840926.43009@incanmonkey.com>
Message-ID: <20030106160409.82610.qmail@web12805.mail.yahoo.com>


 
 bloubet at incanmonkey.com wrote:
Matilda Trelawney writes:

>>I hate the Snape/McGonagall parings. I hated it before the movie came out, because it just dosen't make any sense. Severus is in Slytherin, Minerva is in Gryffindor. Last time I checked, Slytherins hated all Gryffindors, and Severus was the perfect example of a Slytherin stereotype. So why in the world would he suddenly be falling head-over-heels the perfect example of Gryffindor stereo type? They're too far apart for anything to happen, folks! Wake up! Now that the movie has come out, it's just scary to read any romance with Minerva and Severus. Maggie Smith and Alan Rickman do not make a pretty couple together, one, because Minerva looks TOO OLD for him!!! And yet, people still insist on writing Minerva/Severus smut. It's just gross.
I really do like Severus slash parings though, and Snape/Hermione stories. But the Minerva/Severus stuff has got to go.<<

Interesting. You object to Minerva/Severus because she's about 30 years older than he is (both adults, though), but you like Hermione/Severus stories, when he's about 30 years older than she is (and she's underage). And you object to Minerva/Severus because it's Gryffindor/Slytherin, but have no problem with Hermione/Severus, which is Gryffindor/Slytherin.

Not meaning to belittle your objections, but I'm wondering if maybe the real reason is that with Mn/Sv it's the WOMAN who's 30 years older (which is unnatural?), while with Hr/Sv the MAN is 30 years older, and that's socially acceptable. (I truly am just curious. I'm in my 40s and have noticed that while it's perfectly acceptable for men my age to date women in their early 20s, people have been seriously disturbed by comments from me that men in their early 20s should be fair game for me. <grin> )

bel

 Okay, I'll clear it up for you;  

1. Hermione always kinda reminded me, of well...me! I've always had a crush on Severus, even though I'm a little too old to still have school girl crushes on teachers. Hermione is sort of my way to having Severus, without me having to be unfaithful. 

2. Girls like older men. It's been that way forever. I find myself attracted to men much older then me. Take Alan Rickman(actor who played Severus) for example. He's atleast 20 years older than me, ad I've always found him attractive. My finace? is 13 years older then me, so what does that tell you?

3. As a guy, I'm sure you'll agree with me that men don't like to 'date' or have romantic relationships with women who are 30 years older then them. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I never thought 40 year old men found 70 year old women attractive. 

 I suppose it's really not a matter of house with Severus/Hermione. The opposite matter in house with the Minerva/Severus thing, is emphasized as a reason to me to keep Severus and Minerva apart. 
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From linkajarjarbinks at yahoo.com  Mon Jan  6 16:17:10 2003
From: linkajarjarbinks at yahoo.com (Matilda Trelawney)
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 08:17:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Strange SHIPS/OC SHIPS
In-Reply-To: <avat98+1c97@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20030106161710.54383.qmail@web12808.mail.yahoo.com>


 That story about Severus and Albus sounds hilarious! I love pretty much all Original character parings with Severus, as long as they're not horribly written Mary Sues. But other then that, I accept them all. 
 One of my all time favourite parings, would have to be SybilTrelawney/Severus. Okay, okay I know it doesn't involve any original characters, but it is a strange SHIP, because nobody ever writes about it! I love Sybil Trelawney as a character, when everbody else thinks she absolutely ridiculous. She's different I'll admit, but I like her none the less, probably because of her differences! I think she and Severus share a lot of the same qualities, one of them being the students hatred for both of them as teachers. That display of 'mistyness' that Sybil puts on, I think is basicly just a show. It's not how she really is deep inside. Just like how cruel Severus is. Deep down, he's a real softy, but he feels like he shouldn't show it, so he covers it up with down right rudeness. I don't know- the paring just works for me somehow. 
 "Anne <urbana at charter.net>" <urbana at charter.net> wrote:--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, IAmLordCassandra at a... wrote:
> 
> I remember reading a fic not too long ago making fun of Snape 
pairings where 
> Dumbledore decided to 'whore' Snape out. It was a bit twisted, but 
amusing... 
> 
> 
> What are everyone's thoughts on Original Character/HP character 
pairings? I 
> know I'm guilty of writing them, though they all contain yours 
truely as the 
> OC and are mainly for personal amusement/enjoyment. 
> 
> ~Cassie~ 

Well, I am very taken with the pairing of Snape and the OC witch 
Raven Mordent (what a name!) in Stacy Hart's novel "Darkly Inclined", 
currently in progress on Schnoogle.com. I haven't read a lot of HP 
fan fics (yet) because I only started reading them about 6-7 weeks 
ago after seeing CoS, but this is one of my favorites right now. 


Anne U
(P.S. Cassie, I read your first few pages ... interesting! :-)




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From lrcjestes at earthlink.net  Mon Jan  6 16:48:24 2003
From: lrcjestes at earthlink.net (siriusgeologist <lrcjestes@earthlink.net>)
Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 16:48:24 -0000
Subject: Fanfics with slash & sex...I don't get it
In-Reply-To: <20030105114313.81337.qmail@web40206.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <avcc0p+q25o@eGroups.com>

Wow.  I stop by this list for the first time in ages and not only are 
there birthgay greetings for me (thank you Heidi :), but there's a 
thread I've been thinking a lot about.  Personal attention and 
relevancy!  What more could I ask for!

Anyway, back to the thread


--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Diana Lucas <dianasdolls at y...> 
wrote:
> 
> Extremely disgusting.  I'm glad my son doesn't know
> how to read my email or find fanfics online.  Triple
> yecch!

While I wouldn't be quite as vehement as you, I am glad my 9yo isn't 
reading my email or trolling the net for the fanfics that I read (or 
write for that matter).  Just like I really don't think he should pick 
up one of my novels that I enjoy reading.  I'm into romance (what can 
I say...looks sheepish) and most of those novels are not appropriate 
for kids.  That's what we parents are here for.  To watch out for the 
content of what our kids are exposed to.  You are subscribed to a list 
called HP4Grownups.  Hence we indulge in things that grownups enjoy 
including reading and writing stories that include stuff not suitable 
for a 9yo.  That doesn't make it pornography, just inappropriate for 
the kids at this stage in their lives.

That said, I *do* agree with a lot of what you say here:

> 
> I honestly don't understand the appeal of all these
> slash pairings.  I suppose people will write what they
> like, but I won't be reading any of it.  I like the
> characters too much as they are written to go changing
> their sexual preference on them!  If the Harry Potter
> books introduced a gay/lesbian character I wouldn't
> try to pair that character up with someone of the
> opposite sex in a fanfic I wrote, so I can't see
> trying to pair up hetrosexual characters with someone
> of the same sex.  

As someone else stated before there is a bunch of evidence that the 
main trio is hetero.  Add to this my own preconceptions of the 
characters and there really isn't anyone I really see in the HP novels 
as being gay.  That doesn't mean that they aren't and we just haven't 
seen it (which is certainly a valid basis for a fanfic) but it just 
doesn't *feel* right to me, hence I don't read a good majority of the 
slash out there.  

I want to emphasize that I have no problem reading about gay 
characters.  I LOVED the relationship developed by Peg Kerr in her 
book "Wild Swans"  The gay couple in that book was heart-wrenchingly 
wonderful and I read and reread that book and gave it to many people.

But I just don't see that in the HP characters.  I don't even read 
Sirius/Remus slash and that's about as boring as you can get in the 
realm of HP Slash.  I tried..I read..I tried...really, but I can't 
read Sirius/Remus, but then I can't read Sirius/Narcissa either.  It 
isn't about it being a gay pairing, it's about it feeling right, and 
that varies for everyone.  


> Besides, I can't see 11 to
> 14-year-old children [the age span of Harry, Ron and
> Hermione from PS/SS through GoF] being written as
> having sex at all.  Why can't child characters remain
> children without people writing about them having sex?

As has been stated before, most of the time the characters are aged up 
 so as not to have 12 and 13 yo having sex.  That's as out of 
character as a lot of other situations.  There's also the contigent of 
us out there that are writing about the adult characters (mine is 
Sirius-centric) but does have the "children" aged up to nearlung 28.  
Hence there is sex and other grownup stuff. 

That said, the few fics I've read with sex at Hogwarts have been 
difficult for me to read, even though the writing was great, so I 
empathize with you on that front.

>  Yeah, free country, I know, so the writers have a
> right to write that if they wish - and I support their
> right to do it - I just refuse to read it.

So have you rejected all HP fanfic or just those that involve the trio 
in romantic situations and slash?

> 
> It's fun to dream up alternate stories for the
> characters from TV shows and movies, but the best fan
> fiction I've ever read, whether it's Star Trek, Star
> Wars, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, The X-Files or Lord of
> the Rings, has kept true to the characters as
> envisioned and outlined by the ORIGINAL
> creators/writers of the characters.  I haven't even
> ventured into Harry Potter fanfics because I won't be
> happy if I stumble onto some ribald sex scene between
> characters currently no older than 15 (as of the
> anxiously awaited OotP) or "secret lustful glances"
> between Ron and Harry.
>  


And here is the point that I've been wanting to discuss and I've been 
toying with the topic as a presentation for Nimbus 2003, but haven't 
quite figured out a way to present it that won't get me 
either attacked or answer my own question.  I just want to start a 
dialog.

As fanfic writers we have a right to write whatever we want.  I 
definitely support this as I am a fanfic writer and therefore can't 
limit that right for others if I want to take advantage of it myself. 
 But just because we have the right to write whatever pair that 
challenges us, should we?  I don't know...it's just a question.

The problem would certainly come in deciding just what is *in 
character* and what is not *in character*.  That varies as much as 
everyone's interpretation of canon.  It's the ecsesence of the main 
list. If everyone agreed with everyone elses interpretation of canon, 
we'd have given up posting to the list a long time ago.

However, just because you *can* write incest, necrophilia, or zombie 
eating babies, does that mean you should?  Well...yeah. I guess and 
the morality of a given scene is sooooo dependant on the context of 
the story.  If anyone would have told me I'd read a book series full 
of graphic violence and enjoy it I'd have told them they have a screw 
loose, but I love the character development in this particular set of 
books, so I muddle through the violence and still enjoy them.  
:::shrug:::  It all depends on the writer.  

But with that right, just what is our responsibility to the fandom and 
to the characters.  I know how I'd feel if someone else writes about 
my original character.  I'd be worried that they wouldn't get them 
right.  How much more so would JKR be appalled by some of the 
writings?  How much more would she be delighted by some of our astute 
detection of her characters more subtle definitions?

And how does some of the more bizarre and strange pairings make the 
fandom look in the eyes of the rest of the public?  If the more 
bizarre pairings get the public eye, does that tarnish the whole adult 
fandom as decadent?

One of the reasons I loved the HP books to begin with was because they 
were *interesting* books that I *could* read to my then 7yo without 
worrying about language, violence, or sex.  So do we ruin the magic of 
these books by bringing the characters into the adult world of sex, 
violence, and slash?  I wouldn't try to say this was right on a list 
open to all ages, however, this segment of the fandom *is* supposed to 
be the adult wing of the fandom.  It's supposed to be where we 
grownups can come play with characters we love as much as our kids.  
Which brings us back to...parental involvement and parental monitoring 
of what their kids read, and are exposed to.

So as much as some of these pairings squick you out completely, 
someone somewhere has found some justification for it, and just 
because it sounds awful in a sound bite, might not mean it's a 
not a really realistic event in the context of the build up of the 
story.  However, everyone is entitled to read what they want and like 
what they like.  Me, I like romance and find it really hard to get 
through a book that has none. That's why there are summaries and 
ratings, so you know ahead of time what's in your realm of comfort and 
what's not. 

Did I get too long winded?  Did I make any valid points that hadn't 
already been made?  I hope this helped Diana and you don't think any 
of these posts are attacks on you or your opinion...just an attempt to 
explain why people write and read what they do.

Carole
Birthday girl

Sending a big HEY THERE! to voicelady...long time no see!!! must get 
together and chat sometime..YM me sometime.




From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com  Mon Jan  6 16:53:52 2003
From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 11:53:52 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Strange SHIPS/OC SHIPS
Message-ID: <7C3A857E.3AC97490.F1060DB4@aol.com>

In a message dated 1/6/2003 11:17:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, linkajarjarbinks at yahoo.com writes:

> That story about Severus and Albus sounds hilarious! 

There was also another funny one I read. A Snape/Harry fic. Here's how some of the dialouge went: 

Snape: I'm going to say this for the final time, Potter. I did NOT have sex with you! I never have and I never will! 

Harry: But..but..but last night you said you loved me! 

Snape: -_-  This boy has finally gone insane. Ok, if I had sex with you then why don't I remember it? 

Harry: Well, you passed out when you bit my scar. 

Snape: 0.0 


heh-I'm on a bit of a humor kick. And I keep running into things like THAT.  

~Cassie~ 
"You will be teaching Sex Ed. So for one day you shall be known not as the Potions Master, but the Sex Ma-...er..Professor Snape." 




From dradamsapple at yahoo.com  Mon Jan  6 17:03:17 2003
From: dradamsapple at yahoo.com (dradamsapple <dradamsapple@yahoo.com>)
Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 17:03:17 -0000
Subject: Fanfics with slash & sex...I don't get it
In-Reply-To: <avb5vm+tb5n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <avccsl+raf9@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "dradamsapple 
<dradamsapple at y...>" <dradamsapple at y...> wrote:
> 
> Diana,
> 
> As everyone is putting there two knuts in, I figured I'd tell you 
> about my *interest* in  fanfics, whether slash or not.
>
 . . . . I discovered BL Purdoms Psychic Serpent Trilogy, 
> and became hooked on fanfiction, mainly because it was HP.
> Soon after, while waiting for chapters, I discovered Cassies' Draco 
> series, and then Lori's Paridigm of Uncertainty series, and on and 
> on.  


Anna . . . 


here's an addendum to my own post;
OH Carole! 

I forgot to mention your wonderful "A Sirius  . . ." series.  These 
two deal with "adult", as in grownup issues, and is part of the Pou. 
and are also fantastic fics.
(forgive me carole, I've been sleep deprived,and my brain function 
isn't all it should be!!)

And Happy Birthday too!!;-).
> 
> Anna  . . .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
> > http://mailplus.yahoo.com




From silveroak_us at yahoo.com  Mon Jan  6 18:39:44 2003
From: silveroak_us at yahoo.com (silveroak_us <silveroak_us@yahoo.com>)
Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 18:39:44 -0000
Subject: Sorting, Ceiling Wax
In-Reply-To: <F937xls6HOa7NDS2z1J000186a2@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <avcihg+lm6q@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Wendy St. John" 
<HebrideanBlack2002 at h...> wrote:

         <major snippage>
 
> And finally, Catlady wrote:
> 
> >re: Ceiling Wax
> >
> >When I was a child and heard the song "Puff, the Magic Dragon" with
> >its Alice-in-Wonderland-ish line about "shoes and ships and sealing
> >wax and other magic things", I always heard it as "ceiling wax",
> >which I imagined to be similar to floor wax.
> >
> 
> Now me:
> LOL! Yes, I thought the same thing. Actually, even now, that's how 
I spell 
> ceiling wax in my mind when I hear or sing that song! <G>
> 

Now me (Miggs):

This may be just toooo far OT, but the reference to "sealing wax" is 
an echo (rip-off??) of a passage from the great Lewis Carroll, author 
of the Alice in Wonderland books. In the second Alice book, "Through 
the Looking Glass", there is a poem "The Walrus and the Carpenter" 
with a famous passage...

"The time has come, the Walrus said, 
To talk of many things;
Of shoes and ships and sealing wax,
Of cabbages and kings;
And why the sea is boiling hot, 
And whether pigs have wings."

I have always loved Lewis Carroll and have memorized various parts of 
the books because they are just wonderful to read, and a lot of fun 
to say out loud, especially when people aren't expecting it.

BTW, I have tried many of the sorting hat sites, and always get into 
Ravenclaw, which is probably appropriate for me.

  **  Martin Miggs, the Mad Muggle  **





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Mon Jan  6 19:07:17 2003
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999 <foxmoth@qnet.com>)
Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 19:07:17 -0000
Subject: HP Merchandising claims another victim
Message-ID: <avck55+rbgt@eGroups.com>

After holding out through the entire shopping season I have 
belatedly bought a piece of Potterica ...a Harry Potter light string 
from the Marshall Field's catalog 

Pippin






From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com  Mon Jan  6 19:47:48 2003
From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 14:47:48 -0500
Subject: Snape's Harem 
Message-ID: <54EB3F38.485DA4C2.F1060DB4@aol.com>

I was sitting around when a thought came to me: 

If Severus Snape were a real person, how would he feel if he knew that a plethera of women of all different ages were infactuated with him?  

~Cassie~ 



From linkajarjarbinks at yahoo.com  Mon Jan  6 20:24:25 2003
From: linkajarjarbinks at yahoo.com (Matilda Trelawney)
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 12:24:25 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Snape's Harem
In-Reply-To: <54EB3F38.485DA4C2.F1060DB4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20030106202425.35942.qmail@web12806.mail.yahoo.com>


Heh, my guess is he'd be scared! 
 IAmLordCassandra at aol.com wrote:I was sitting around when a thought came to me: 

If Severus Snape were a real person, how would he feel if he knew that a plethera of women of all different ages were infactuated with him?  

~Cassie~ 

Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT

________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________

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Is your message...
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From sushi at societyhappens.com  Mon Jan  6 21:18:45 2003
From: sushi at societyhappens.com (Sushi)
Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 15:18:45 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Snape's Harem
In-Reply-To: <54EB3F38.485DA4C2.F1060DB4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030106151420.025eae80@mail.societyhappens.com>

At 02:47 PM 1/6/03 -0500, you wrote:
>I was sitting around when a thought came to me:
>
>If Severus Snape were a real person, how would he feel if he knew that a 
>plethera of women of all different ages were infactuated with him?
>
>~Cassie~


         *door to headmaster's office flies open, and slams shut nearly as 
quickly*Snape leans against it, panting like a steam engine, eyes wide and 
wild, robes in shreds*
         "ALBUS!  I'm going back to Voldemort!  *He'd* let me curse them!"

         Er, sorry, sorry, the mental image was too good to pass up. :)

Sushi, who agrees with Matilda on the fear issue


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From melclaros at yahoo.com  Mon Jan  6 21:20:25 2003
From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros <melclaros@yahoo.com>)
Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 21:20:25 -0000
Subject: Snape's Harem
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030106151420.025eae80@mail.societyhappens.com>
Message-ID: <avcrup+249p@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Sushi <sushi at s...> wrote:
> At 02:47 PM 1/6/03 -0500, you wrote:
> >I was sitting around when a thought came to me:
> >
> >If Severus Snape were a real person, how would he feel if he knew 
that a 
> >plethera of women of all different ages were infactuated with him?
> >
> >~Cassie~
> 
> 
>          *door to headmaster's office flies open, and slams shut 
nearly as 
> quickly*Snape leans against it, panting like a steam engine, eyes 
wide and 
> wild, robes in shreds*
>          "ALBUS!  I'm going back to Voldemort!  *He'd* let me curse 
them!"
> 
>          Er, sorry, sorry, the mental image was too good to pass 
up. :)
> 
> Sushi, who agrees with Matilda on the fear issue


Oh absolutely!

"Please Headmaster! I've been good! Just ONE forbidden curse!"
I'd add *Horrified*.
Poor guy.
Can't you see him rubbing more grease into his head? Stinky, rancid 
grease?

Melpomene




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Mon Jan  6 21:33:22 2003
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999 <foxmoth@qnet.com>)
Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 21:33:22 -0000
Subject: Snape's Harem -- Carole's question
In-Reply-To: <54EB3F38.485DA4C2.F1060DB4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <avcsn2+trqh@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, 
IAmLordCassandra at a... wrote:
> I was sitting around when a thought came to me: 
> 
> If Severus Snape were a real person, how would he feel if he 
>knew that a plethera of women of all different ages were 
>infactuated with him?  

You might be interested in my fanfiction, The Imperius Crush, 
which explores what might happen if  the "real" 15 year old 
Hermione  got her hands on the typical Snape/Hermione 
romance. <g>


http://www.riddikulus.org/authorLinks/Amanita_Lestrange/

You've given me an idea for a prequel. Thanks!

In answer to Carole's question, maybe the panel question would 
be, where do you set your own boundaries, as an author or a 
reader, and why?

I'll read whatever grabs my fancy, but as a writer, I decided I 
wouldn't publish any fan fiction I'd be squicked to discuss with 
my own teenage kids. I think I'd feel differently about an original 
fiction, if I ever managed one.

Carole, you weren't referring to the Anita Blake series by any 
chance?


Pippin
shamelessly plugging her own work -- and wishing a happy 
birthday to Carole




From thalia at aokp.org  Mon Jan  6 23:11:38 2003
From: thalia at aokp.org (chanteuse thalia chaunacy)
Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 15:11:38 -0800
Subject: OoP release date -- don't read if you're easily depressed ;)
Message-ID: <WorldClient-F200301061511.AA11380016@aokp.org>

jrthebug: you still work at a bookstore, perchance?
Rosaleen17: yes...
jrthebug: i have to ask
jrthebug: heard anything about release date for HP5?
Rosaleen17: ok...
Rosaleen17: *sigh*  you'll hate this.
Rosaleen17: scholastic announced that it would be another year and a half 
because the manuscript was not ready when it was supposed to be
jrthebug: when was this announcement?
Rosaleen17: within the last month, i think.  my boss was telling me about 
it.  he's usually pretty reliable about stuff like that
jrthebug: somebody on the list swears their bookstore friend said by may
Rosaleen17: we were saying by may.  and then by november...
Rosaleen17: *sigh*  when they have an official date they will tell us
jrthebug: ok, but...
jrthebug: Gretchen said "According to the 2002 financial report for 
Scholastic, Inc., they expect to publish the OoP early in their 2004 
fiscal year, which begins on June 1, 2003.  This is close to what you 
have been told, it seems.  Hopefully we will have confirmation in the 
next month or so. In an earlier article, can't remember which, they 
stated it was about 6 months from recieving a completed manuscript to 
publication.  We should be hearing soon, if these dates are correct."
jrthebug: the question is--when did said '2002 financial report' come 
out? wouldn't that have been like may 2002?
Rosaleen17: right.  since then, they didnt get the manuscript as predicted
jrthebug: ah

she also said something about midnite sales on the release day! did this 
happen for GoF? <does happy dance> i'm so there ... even if it is in a 
year and a half ...

thalia 'always up for spreading despondency' chaunacy

"Ah, music. A magic beyond all we do here!"  -Albus Dumbledore




From Lord1912 at juno.com  Mon Jan  6 23:20:17 2003
From: Lord1912 at juno.com (lord1912 <Lord1912@juno.com>)
Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 23:20:17 -0000
Subject: Strange SHIPs
In-Reply-To: <20030106160409.82610.qmail@web12805.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <avd2vh+l3oc@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Matilda Trelawney 
<linkajarjarbinks at y...> wrote:


> 3. As a guy, I'm sure you'll agree with me that men don't like 
to 'date' or have romantic relationships with women who are 30 years 
older then them. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I never thought 40 
year old men found 70 year old women attractive. 


I have one aunt who is happily married to a man 18 years her 
junior.  She is 60 and he is 42.   They are very much in love and 
each of them looks the age they are.  Many couples with typical age 
pairings could take a lesson from these two.

I have another aunt who was married for 30 years to a man 11 years 
her junior, yet again another successful happy marriage.

So there!  Just because most people follow a stereotypical pattern 
doesn't mean everyone does, and, more importantly, doesn't mean 
everyone SHOULD.  Different strokes for different folks.

Lady Tavington-Malfoy




From heidit at netbox.com  Mon Jan  6 23:18:41 2003
From: heidit at netbox.com (Heidi Tandy)
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 19:18:41 -0400
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] OoP release date -- don't read if you're easily depressed ;)
Message-ID: <mailman.19.1576049041.5361.hpfgu-otchatter@archive.hpfgu.org>

This is not true, according to the information posted on Scholastic's website in the last 3 weeks. 
-----Original Message-----
From: "chanteuse thalia chaunacy" <thalia at aokp.org>
Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 15:11:38 
To:HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] OoP release date -- don't read if you're easily depressed ;)

Real-To:  "chanteuse thalia chaunacy" <thalia at aokp.org>

jrthebug: you still work at a bookstore, perchance?
Rosaleen17: yes...
jrthebug: i have to ask
jrthebug: heard anything about release date for HP5?
Rosaleen17: ok...
Rosaleen17: *sigh*  you'll hate this.
Rosaleen17: scholastic announced that it would be another year and a half 
because the manuscript was not ready when it was supposed to be
jrthebug: when was this announcement?
Rosaleen17: within the last month, i think.  my boss was telling me about 
it.  he's usually pretty reliable about stuff like that
jrthebug: somebody on the list swears their bookstore friend said by may
Rosaleen17: we were saying by may.  and then by november...
Rosaleen17: *sigh*  when they have an official date they will tell us
jrthebug: ok, but...
jrthebug: Gretchen said "According to the 2002 financial report for 
Scholastic, Inc., they expect to publish the OoP early in their 2004 
fiscal year, which begins on June 1, 2003.  This is close to what you 
have been told, it seems.  Hopefully we will have confirmation in the 
next month or so. In an earlier article, can't remember which, they 
stated it was about 6 months from recieving a completed manuscript to 
publication.  We should be hearing soon, if these dates are correct."
jrthebug: the question is--when did said '2002 financial report' come 
out? wouldn't that have been like may 2002?
Rosaleen17: right.  since then, they didnt get the manuscript as predicted
jrthebug: ah

she also said something about midnite sales on the release day! did this 
happen for GoF? <does happy dance> i'm so there ... even if it is in a 
year and a half ...

thalia 'always up for spreading despondency' chaunacy

"Ah, music. A magic beyond all we do here!"  -Albus Dumbledore


________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________

Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the group's Admin Files!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/

Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying!

Is your message...
An announcement of merchandise, news etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements.
Movie-related? Send it to HPFGU-Movie.
Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups.
None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter.
Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com

Unsubscribing? Email HPFGU-OTChatter-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
____________________________________________________________ 

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From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk  Mon Jan  6 23:23:16 2003
From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte)
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 23:23:16 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] OoP release date -- more optomistic news
References: <WorldClient-F200301061511.AA11380016@aokp.org>
Message-ID: <3E1A0FE4.000001.31315@monica>

Typed up from the current issue of Starburst.

Fifth Potter Novel Finished

"JK Rowling has announced that the latest installment of the Harry Potter
saga, 'The Order of the Phoenix', is finally complete. Amid tales of writer
s block and the distractions of her new-found fame, not to mention wealth,
re-marriage and impending motherhood, the novel has taken Rowling a long
time to write (it's two-and-a-half years since 'The Goblet of Fire' came
out) but the fifth in the seven-book series is finally done. It's scheduled
for publication in the first half of 2003.
Although Rowling has previously said that she expected the 636-page 'Goblet
of ire' to be the longest book since it was the pivot of the series, it
looks likr 'The Order of the Phoenix' will be just as long, if not longer.
the author noted that, as she embarked on a round of final tweaking before
handing it to her publisher Bloomsbury, the novel stood at 38 chapters. 'The
Goblet of Fire' had 37."

Also the Internet Movie Database is listing Sir Ian MacKellen as playing
Dumbledore in theior cast list for PoA with the only other confirmed cast
members being the intedpid trio and Hagrid.

K



From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Mon Jan  6 23:41:39 2003
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David <dfrankiswork@netscape.net>)
Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 23:41:39 -0000
Subject: Nimbus question (was Fanfics with slash & sex)
In-Reply-To: <avcc0p+q25o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <avd47j+51gj@eGroups.com>

Happy birthday, Carole!

> And here is the point that I've been wanting to discuss and I've 
been 
> toying with the topic as a presentation for Nimbus 2003, but 
haven't 
> quite figured out a way to present it that won't get me 
> either attacked or answer my own question.  I just want to start a 
> dialog.

> But with that right, just what is our responsibility to the fandom 
and 
> to the characters.  

How about: Do authors have a responsibility to their readers, or 
only their art?  Do fanfic authors have a responsibility to the 
integrity of the world that they are borrowing?  Explain.

David




From sushi at societyhappens.com  Mon Jan  6 23:57:58 2003
From: sushi at societyhappens.com (Sushi)
Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 17:57:58 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Nimbus question (was Fanfics with slash
  & sex)
In-Reply-To: <avd47j+51gj@eGroups.com>
References: <avcc0p+q25o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030106174949.025f9580@mail.societyhappens.com>


>How about: Do authors have a responsibility to their readers, or
>only their art?  Do fanfic authors have a responsibility to the
>integrity of the world that they are borrowing?  Explain.
>
>David

         My two cents.

         An author's responsibility to the reader is to create a 
well-written, grammatically-feasible story.  In certain situations (ie, 
graphic sex or violence), it is polite and, for all intents nowadays, 
expected that there be some sort of mention ahead of time, at least in the 
case of fanfic.  The primary responsibility is, and always will be, to the 
writing itself (although this can be summed up as, write it well).

         Fanfic authors have a great deal of responsibility to maintain the 
integrity of their borrowed world.  Great or perceived great deviations 
should be explained.  Otherwise, what's the point of writing in that 
universe?  It *is* possible to stretch the boundaries and still make a 
feasible story.  One of the greatest challenges of fanfiction is to 
redefine all or a small portion of the world in which the story takes place 
without creating something that simply could not happen.  It's a fine line, 
and one I like to push at every possible opportunity.

         That said, I'm off to pick up my laundry. :)

Sushi, Queen of the Rampant Subplot


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From linkajarjarbinks at yahoo.com  Tue Jan  7 01:03:51 2003
From: linkajarjarbinks at yahoo.com (Matilda Trelawney)
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 17:03:51 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Strange SHIPs
In-Reply-To: <avd2vh+l3oc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20030107010351.95611.qmail@web12804.mail.yahoo.com>


 Well there's no need for everyone to get in a snit about it. I'm basing this on most of the men I've known. I'm sure there are exceptions, much like your aunts. I was referring to the stereotype. Stereotype's aren't just pulled out of thin air, you know. They are what commonly occours with a type of people, in this particular situation, men.
 But aren't we getting a little off topic? The original conversation was why Minerva and Severus shouldn't be together. I really didn't mean to get all these people infuriated with me because of my own thoughts and opinions, and I'm sorry if you felt I was claiming that 70 year old women and 40 year old men just SHOULDN'T be together. I was just saying that Minerva/Severus don't seem like a particularly 'cute' couple, and I was only talking about Minerva/Severus parings, not every couple similar to the 'woman is older then the man' relationship.    
 "lord1912 <Lord1912 at juno.com>" <Lord1912 at juno.com> wrote:--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Matilda Trelawney 
<linkajarjarbinks at y...> wrote:


> 3. As a guy, I'm sure you'll agree with me that men don't like 
to 'date' or have romantic relationships with women who are 30 years 
older then them. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I never thought 40 
year old men found 70 year old women attractive. 


I have one aunt who is happily married to a man 18 years her 
junior.  She is 60 and he is 42.   They are very much in love and 
each of them looks the age they are.  Many couples with typical age 
pairings could take a lesson from these two.

I have another aunt who was married for 30 years to a man 11 years 
her junior, yet again another successful happy marriage.

So there!  Just because most people follow a stereotypical pattern 
doesn't mean everyone does, and, more importantly, doesn't mean 
everyone SHOULD.  Different strokes for different folks.

Lady Tavington-Malfoy


________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________

Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the group's Admin Files!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/

Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying!

Is your message...
An announcement of merchandise, news etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements.
Movie-related? Send it to HPFGU-Movie.
Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups.
None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter.
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From rvotaw at i-55.com  Tue Jan  7 02:48:16 2003
From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw)
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 20:48:16 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: A sort of Gryffindor sword/ HP merchandise
References: <av8he6+9a67@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <017701c2b5f7$3b7db980$d8a1cdd1@RVotaw>

Catlady writes:

> Her "Excalibur" is even lower ($44.95) and has a RED gemstone, so it 
> is more similar to the sword of Gryffindor than that Napoleon sword 
> is. 

Ooh, pretty.  I wonder how long that sword is?  Most said in the description, but that one didn't.  Call me crazy, but I've had a longing to buy a sword for a couple of years now.  Before I'd even read Harry Potter, so that can't be it.

As for the electronic Gryffindor sword, I went to the nearest Toys R Us yesterday hunting it, but they had none, (and I repeat, NONE) of the new stuff.  Except the Basilisk Playset.  KayBee Toys was a little better, they at least had the November release action figures, but no sword.  Wal-Mart has more Harry Potter toys than both of them combined, but they're rearranging the toy department now, so I don't expect them to put anything new out until they get to that section at least.  I checked ebay, there's only one Gryffindor sword on there.  It's currently at $26.01 with five days left!  I can get it at Sylvan Lane for less than that!

Pippin writes:

> After holding out through the entire shopping season I have 
> belatedly bought a piece of Potterica ...a Harry Potter light string 
> from the Marshall Field's catalog 

Ah, another one bites the dust.  My Scholastic order came in today with the Sorcerer's Stone and Chamber of Secrets deluxe pop-up books.  :)  

Richelle


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com  Tue Jan  7 03:50:13 2003
From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (maria_kirilenko <maria_kirilenko@yahoo.com>)
Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 03:50:13 -0000
Subject: Fanfics with slash & sex...I don't get it
In-Reply-To: <OCEOIOOCLDBFPDHBBCEMEEHMCLAA.morrigan@byz.org>
Message-ID: <avdipl+23e2@eGroups.com>

Hi, my name is Maria and I'm new!

This discussion of slash fanfics interested me a lot, and I thought 
I'd contribute my 2 knuts to it also.

I started reading HP fanfiction pretty recently, although I liked X-
Files FF several years ago and even wrote some. But I'd never tried 
reading slash because I felt I'd be bothered by it. 

Nevertheless, two or three weeks ago I read a PG-rated (starting 
small!) Sirius/Remus story and was hooked! There are so many really 
great love stories out there, and I'm a hopeless romantic. I don't 
look at it as a homo- or hetero-sexual relationship, but just as a 
relationship between 2 people, regardless of their sex.

Although I wouldn't like JKR to make it out like that in the books, I 
enjoy the Remus/Sirius pairing in FF. See, I love Remus Lupin and 
would really like him to be happy (well, Sirius too :)), but I don't 
enjoy reading FF with non-canon characters (hate 'em <g>), and JKR 
doesn't have any female characters of the right age, and I've never 
seen a good Lupin/Hermione fic (BTW, if you know a good one, could 
you tell me?)

This is getting long, but I'd just like to say again that lots of 
slash stories (wouldn't vouch for the Draco/Harry ones, since I've 
never read one and don't really want to) are really nice, mild ones, 
even those that are R-rated, just as lovely as many non-slash love 
stories.

Maria






From thalia at aokp.org  Tue Jan  7 05:02:32 2003
From: thalia at aokp.org (chanteuse thalia chaunacy)
Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 21:02:32 -0800
Subject: release date again
Message-ID: <WorldClient-F200301062102.AA02320028@aokp.org>

sorry to bother the whole list but my email program kicked me off then 
ate the relevant post.

so.

honestly, i would LOVE for my friend to be proven wrong about this, but 
much to my chagrin the scholastic site is smarter than me.  will you 
point me in the right direction, ye who has seen news there? i would be 
forever grateful.

thalia 'perky in the face of her own inadequacies' chaunacy

"Ah, music. A magic beyond all we do here!"  -Albus Dumbledore




From jdumas at kingwoodcable.com  Tue Jan  7 05:17:34 2003
From: jdumas at kingwoodcable.com (Katze)
Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 23:17:34 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] release date again
References: <WorldClient-F200301062102.AA02320028@aokp.org>
Message-ID: <3E1A62EE.2000009@kingwoodcable.com>

I didn't originally post the information about Scholastic, but you can reference 
to Scholastic's outlook here:
http://www.scholastic.com/aboutscholastic/investor/index.htm

It's under 'Updated FY03 Outlook'

"We now expect publication of the fifth Harry Potter book to occur early in our 
2004 fiscal year, which begins June 1, 2003. ..."

Take care!
Katze


chanteuse thalia chaunacy wrote:
> sorry to bother the whole list but my email program kicked me off then 
> ate the relevant post.
> 
> so.
> 
> honestly, i would LOVE for my friend to be proven wrong about this, but 
> much to my chagrin the scholastic site is smarter than me.  will you 
> point me in the right direction, ye who has seen news there? i would be 
> forever grateful.







From dianasdolls at yahoo.com  Tue Jan  7 09:00:40 2003
From: dianasdolls at yahoo.com (Diana <dianasdolls@yahoo.com>)
Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 09:00:40 -0000
Subject: slash fiction - responses
Message-ID: <ave4vo+cko9@eGroups.com>

heiditandy asked:
>Which part is extremely disgusting? The PG-13 rated fics that pair 
>Snape and McGonagall or the ones that pair Snape and Lupin? 
>And if so, why is it disgusting? Why would it be disgusting if the 
>fics were R-rated? 

Vicki wrote:
I certainly think that everyone is entitled to likes and dislikes, 
but 
The "extremely disgusting" comment seems... rather rude, like 
talking down or condemning anyone who likes that.  I'm going to just 
point that out while assuming that isn't the way you meant it to 
come across.

Me: 
I was referring specifically to the Lucius/Draco incestuous pairing 
Cassie mentioned at the very beginning of post.  Even if that fanfic 
piece was written by the greatest writer of all time, I would not 
find an incestuous relationship between a father and son, even 
between two characters I dislike [almost love to hate], in the 
slightest bit appealing.  
These are fictional characters, true, but child sexual abuse is, 
unfortunately, very real.  No offense to Cassie, I know she was just 
mentioning the strangest fanfic pairing she'd ever seen and was 
praising it as actually well written by her comments, but I would 
not find a fictional story promoting a 'beautiful' sexual 
relationship between a father and his son as particularly helpful to 
the cause of real children sexually abused everyday in this 
country.  I just can't see any appeal in such a pairing knowing what 
I do about this subject.  

And to address Vicki's comments specifically, why is my choice of 
words and my expressing my own opinion "rather rude"?   I will not 
read and cannot understand other people's avid interest in writing 
and/or reading slash fiction about the Harry Potter characters, 
especially the three main characters.  These are my feelings right 
now at this very moment with the characters as currently written in 
canon.  I didn't expect avid fanfic fans to automatically agree with 
my comments, but I did expect them to understand my point of view as 
I accept their right to write and/or read it.  I do not believe that 
people who read and/or write slash fiction are terrible, deranged 
people or anything of the sort, though I must state that I truly 
wonder about the specific person who wrote a Lucius/Draco pairing.  
Everyone's tastes are different and I accept that ? I just can't see 
the appeal myself.  As for the Draco/Lucius pairing, I, personally, 
find that scenario nothing less than disgusting for many reasons.  
My point of view is exactly that ? *my* point of view.

Just because I do not agree with other posters about this and don't 
enjoy reading slash fanfics myself does not mean I condemn those who 
read or write that kind of fiction.  To each his own.  This is just 
like my mental block for logrhythms in high school [never did get 
those], I just can't get past their lack of appeal to me on many 
levels to sit down and read one.  

 







From dianasdolls at yahoo.com  Tue Jan  7 09:35:55 2003
From: dianasdolls at yahoo.com (Diana <dianasdolls@yahoo.com>)
Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 09:35:55 -0000
Subject: slash fiction - responses part 2
Message-ID: <ave71r+m69p@eGroups.com>

Saitaina wrote:
>No one's changing their sexual preference.
>A lot of kids explore in their teenage years
>and that's one of the things slash writers
>pick up on. Just because Neville's kissing
>Percy in one story doesn't mean he's going to
>be gay (bi/what have you) forever. Added to
>that we just don't KNOW for sure their sexual
>preference. Even with those dating/married.
>Stories are told countless times of a couple
>married 20+ years and suddenly one of them
>figures out that they're not all as attracted
>to the opposite sex as they thought they
>were. And for some, denial is a way of life.
>We can never be sure but it's fun to play
>with.

bboy_mn contributed:
>>British boys boarding school are notorious for... how should I say
this... boys turning to each other for comfort and more importantly
refief; if you know what I mean. But as indicated in the paragraph
above, this is usually about sharing a new found experience and
pleasure with someone you trust. In a sense, it is about discover and
self-discovery with the help of trusted friends. Again, when they get
deep into puberty, the focus changes to relationships rather than
discovering and enjoying this pleasurable part of your body. 
Although, it's away nice to have a trusted friend willing to lend a 
helping hand (sorry about the pun).
So, even though this activity is very common (although not a
majority), it is not about sexual preference. In this time of
discovery, it is about trust... and... well... it does feel good.<<

abigailnus added:
>>>Well, statistically speaking, it's perfectly valid to assume that 
a person is heterosexual until informed otherwise, because you have 
a 85-90% chance of being right. Putting that aside for the moment, 
it seems to me that quite a bit of slash fanfic in the HP universe 
involves characters - at least one half of the pair - who are 
demonstrably straight. I admit that there is no evidence on the 
sexual orientation of most of the adult characters, but a lot of 
slash pairings involve the trio, and there I think the evidence is 
incotrovertible. Both Harry and Ron have responded sexually to 
members of the opposite sex, on more than one occasion and with more 
than more person. The only member of the Trio who *might* be said to 
be on sexually ambiguous ground is Hermione - her feelings towards 
the three men in her life are unclear, I suspect not only to us and 
to them, but also to herself. But then, there's very little in the 
way of lesbian slash fanfic, isn't there?<<< 

Me:
I agree with abigailnus.  Harry, Ron and Hermione have shown 
demonstrable interest in members of the opposite sex.  Harry's 
enchantment by the Veela and his shy crush on Cho Chang.  Harry is 
also aware of Ginny's crush on him and it embarrasses him.  Ron also 
fell for the Veelas' charms at the Quidditch World Cup and under 
Fleur's charms, too.  Ron is definitely showing raging jealousy over 
Hermione's interest in Krum and obviously likes her as something 
more than a friend.  Even Harry notices this when he comments 
that "Hermione got the point much better than [Ron] did." when 
Hermione yells that Ron should have asked her first to the Yule ball 
instead of making up for his mistake by throwing a jealous fit after 
it was too late.  Hermione has also made Harry and Ron very 
uncomfortable a few times by throwing her arms around them in 
emotional hugs - evidence of a boy uncomfortable because a girl 
[representing something unknown and yet attractive to him] is 
hugging him fiercely.  I can search out the quotes in canon if need 
be, just let me know.  Hermione is obviously becoming interested in 
Ron as more than a friend.  She knows why Ron is so jealous of 
Krum's interest in her and is understandably furious when Ron tries 
to claim that Krum's only asked her to get close to Harry or spy on 
Hogwarts in general.  Hermione looks like she feels the same way 
about Ron, and she is somewhat interested in Krum, even if they end 
up just friends.  All of these things indicate that Ron, Hermione 
and Harry are more than likely hetrosexual.  Whether that changes 
when they're much older, which I doubt, we'll never know as there 
won't be any more books after the 7th one, in which Harry will be 
17.  
As to British boys boarding schools, that may be true in the real 
world, but I just can't see Neville requesting some aid in 'getting 
some relief' from Seamus or Dean, for one example.  The Potterverse 
is *not* the real world and that is as much apart of it's magic and 
appeal to me as anything else about it.   

Saitaina wrote: 
> Hate to burst the bubble but nine year olds
> have consensual sex nowadays.   Not saying
> they should but it happens.  But most stories
> that are written do take place fifth year and
> up, the time when most are going farther then
> making out in empty classrooms.

Me:  
Really?  I find it incredibly hard to believe that the average nine-
year-old has sex nowadays.  My son is nine and he's about as far 
from having a sex as I am from becoming an astronaut.  I have no 
doubt that a very tiny percentage may have had sex at nine, but 
generalizing those specific kids' experiences to the entire nine-
year-old population is absurd.  I wouldn't conclude that everyone 
born the same year as Elijah Wood was just as attractive with the 
same blue eyes and dark hair, even though I'm sure that there are 
many other non-movie-star people born his same year that are 
attractive with blue eyes and dark hair.  And my example probably 
has a much higher percentage of people who fit the bill than nine-
year-olds having sex.  
Like you say yourself, nine-year-olds should not be having sex, and 
even though I'm sure it has happened, rarely, those rare instances 
do not negate my feeling that child aged characters should not be 
written has having a bunch of sex.  And the crux of the issue is 
that a fanfic author stating the characters are now 19, 25 or 42 is 
not going to prevent me from seeing the characters as they are now - 
as young teenagers.  Call it a blindspot if you will.
If the majority of fanfics have age limits and/or age up the 
characters, that's great ? I'm all for it, but what disturbs me that 
people other than yourself may be thinking that eleven- to fourteen-
year-olds should be fair game for sex in fanfics.  Until the next 
book comes out, the characters have frozen for me at their current 
ages, and I can't yet think of them as older or jumping in the sack 
with anyone, slash or het.  To reiterate, even if the characters are 
aged up in the fanfics, I can't see them as older than their current 
ages as of GoF, and the biggest reason is because I don't want to.  
I rarely find a series of books I like this much, from the 
characters to the settings to the writing style to the heroic, even 
possibly epic, story arc on down.  I don't *want* to change the 
characters because I like them just as they are. 

Saitaina wrote:
>  My advice, as it always is, is try
> one, just one and if you don't like it after,
> hey, your choice but at least try it before
> you say ewww.  You never know, you might be a
> secret slasher.

Me:
I have read slash fiction for other shows, such as "The X-
Files", "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" and even a few "Star Trek" ones, 
and while a few had an attempt at plots and were okay, many were 
horrible.  The entire point of the story, if there was one, was to 
get to the point where the characters have sex - one X-Files and 
Buffy crossover was the dumbest excuse for the 'author', and I use 
that word reluctantly, to write personal [bad] porn for his own 
enjoyment.  It was posted on a fanfic site along with other stories 
and I just didn't even bother to try any of the others after that.  
And the ratings were useless as they were wrong.  There was no 
rating for just plain insipid, unfortunately.
There may indeed be wonderfully written fanfics featuring slash and 
hetro pairings that try to showcase a 'real' loving relationship 
between the characters, but as I have wasted bits of my life half-
reading cruddy fanfic before, I can't see trying that again, not for 
a long time.  Besides, like I mentioned above, I'm in 'love' with 
the characters as written and don't want to see them changed in 
order to fufill someone's plot devices or personal fantasies.  I 
even wrote some Buffy and Star Wars fanfic of my own, for my own 
enjoyment and for another Star Wars list I used to belong to, but 
unlike HP, I didn't have such a strong attachment to those 
characters as written.  
I should also add that I like the way the movie was cast so well 
with regard to the characters, that I have actually begun to picture 
the actors as the characters in my mind's eye while rereading the 
books!  Talk about true movie contamination!  LOL   It is impossible 
to picture Daniel Radcliffe or Maggie Smith having a fling with Alan 
Rickman, and that's a good thing, IMHO.

Diana 




From bloubet at incanmonkey.com  Tue Jan  7 10:26:10 2003
From: bloubet at incanmonkey.com (bloubet at incanmonkey.com)
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 03:26:10 -0700 (MST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Strange SHIPs
In-Reply-To: <1041916709.1439.14315.m10@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <1041935168.25815@incanmonkey.com>

Matilda Trelawney said:

>>Well there's no need for everyone to get in a snit about it. I'm basing this on most of the men I've known. I'm sure there are exceptions, much like your aunts. I was referring to the stereotype. Stereotype's aren't just pulled out of thin air, you know. They are what commonly occours with a type of people, in this particular situation, men.
But aren't we getting a little off topic? The original conversation was why Minerva and Severus shouldn't be together. I really didn't mean to get all these people infuriated with me because of my own thoughts and opinions, and I'm sorry if you felt I was claiming that 70 year old women and 40 year old men just SHOULDN'T be together. I was just saying that Minerva/Severus don't seem like a particularly 'cute' couple, and I was only talking about Minerva/Severus parings, not every couple similar to the 'woman is older then the man' relationship.<<

Matilda Trelawney <linkajarjarbinks at y...> wrote:

> 3. As a guy, I'm sure you'll agree with me that men don't like
to 'date' or have romantic relationships with women who are 30 years
older then them. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I never thought 40
year old men found 70 year old women attractive.<

Me (Bel):
No snit here. Everyone is certainly entitled to their opinion. As I originally stated, I was just curious, because the age difference seemed to bother you for Minerva and Severus, but not for Hermione and Severus (who are approximately the same number of years apart).

I am curious as to where you got the impression that younger women like older men, but younger men don't like older women. I've dated men as much as 8 years younger than I am with no problem, and I have friends married to men 10-15 years younger. <shrug> I do admit, however, that, as I said before, there does seem to be much more acceptance in society for a 50-year-old man with a 25-year-old woman than there is for a couple with the ages reversed. Maybe it hearkens back to our tribal origins and biological imperatives -- men of any age can still breed, but only younger women can bear children. Hence, it's acceptable for men of any age to be with younger women, but older women (non-breeders) shouldn't be taking younger, virile men out of the breeding population. (Is my anthropology degree showing? <grin>)

I'm also curious where you got the impression that I'm a guy. <grin> (At least, I THINK that was the implication in number 3 above.) Definitely female. Over 40, and happily accepting applications for romance from any males age 21-60. No age discrimination here. <VBG>

To bring it back in line, I originally questioned your statements because you were seeming to use age difference and house affiliation as your reasons for heartily disliking Minerva/Severus shipping, yet were seeming to ignore the exact same differences (age and house) between Hermione and Severus. I wanted to discuss the two ships further to see why exactly the differences bothered you in one case but not the other. In general, BOTH ships don't work for me. But then, I'm not sure WHO I'd pair with Severus. <grin> While I can sort of understand the attraction to him, he just doesn't ring my bell. It would have to be someone who could sympathize with him without being soft about it, and who wouldn't take his sharp tongue personally. Hmmm -- maybe Hooch? <grin>

bel



From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com  Tue Jan  7 13:57:47 2003
From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 08:57:47 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] slash fiction - responses
Message-ID: <21BE170D.09DF5BAA.F1060DB4@aol.com>

In a message dated 1/7/2003 4:00:40 AM Eastern Standard Time, dianasdolls at yahoo.com writes:

> I was referring specifically to the Lucius/Draco incestuous pairing
> Cassie mentioned at the very beginning of post.  Even if that fanfic
> piece was written by the greatest writer of all time, I would not
> find an incestuous relationship between a father and son, even
> between two characters I dislike [almost love to hate], in the
> slightest bit appealing.
> These are fictional characters, true, but child sexual abuse is,
> unfortunately, very real.  No offense to Cassie, I know she was just
> mentioning the strangest fanfic pairing she'd ever seen and was
> praising it as actually well written by her comments, but I would
> not find a fictional story promoting a 'beautiful' sexual
> relationship between a father and his son as particularly helpful to
> the cause of real children sexually abused everyday in this
> country.  I just can't see any appeal in such a pairing 
> knowing what
> I do about this subject. 

I'm not saying the relationship was 'beautiful' (Actually, it was a bit abusive at points), just the way the story was written. The writer's style, the way they described things, etc... 

Like I said, it was one of those fics that made you go: 

0_o; Umm..

Yet at the same time think "This is a very well written story."  

~Cassie~ 



From ITZregina at hanson.net  Tue Jan  7 16:35:59 2003
From: ITZregina at hanson.net (Regina <ITZregina@hanson.net>)
Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 16:35:59 -0000
Subject: slash fiction - responses part 2
In-Reply-To: <ave71r+m69p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <avevlf+ro86@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Diana <dianasdolls at y...>" 
<dianasdolls at y...> wrote:

<I will not read and cannot understand other people's avid interest 
in writing and/or reading slash fiction about the Harry Potter 
characters, especially the three main characters. These are my 
feelings right now at this very moment with the characters as 
currently written in canon.>

Thank you for bringing this up Diana.  I can't get through a fanfic 
with the HP characters being portrayed in slash/sexual situations.

Diana:
I do not believe that people who read and/or write slash fiction are 
terrible, deranged people or anything of the sort,> 

Yes, to each his own and I prefer not to read them.


> I agree with abigailnus.  Harry, Ron and Hermione have shown 
> demonstrable interest in members of the opposite sex.  Harry's 
> enchantment by the Veela and his shy crush on Cho Chang.  Harry is 
> also aware of Ginny's crush on him and it embarrasses him.  Ron 
also > fell for the Veelas' charms at the Quidditch World Cup and 
under Fleur's charms, too.  Ron is definitely showing raging jealousy 
over Hermione's interest in Krum and obviously likes her as something 
> more than a friend. > 

There is just too much canon pointing out that they are indeed 
heterosexual.  I can't see them in other way.


Diana:  
  <And the crux of the issue is that a fanfic author stating the 
characters are now 19, 25 or 42 is > not going to prevent me from 
seeing the characters as they are now - as young teenagers.> 

Raising the age of the chracters, as of now, is not canon.  I've 
tried reading the fanfic of the trio being older and it NOT the trio 
that I know and love. 

Diana:

 <Until the next book comes out, the characters have frozen for me at 
their current ages, and I can't yet think of them as older or jumping 
in the sack with anyone, slash or het.  To reiterate, even if the 
characters are aged up in the fanfics, I can't see them as older than 
their current ages as of GoF, and the biggest reason is because I 
don't want to.   I rarely find a series of books I like this much, 
from the  characters to the settings to the writing style to the 
heroic, even  possibly epic, story arc on down.  I don't *want* to 
change the characters because I like them just as they are.> 


EXCELLENT!  I couldn't have said it better myself.

Diana:
> I should also add that I like the way the movie was cast so well 
> with regard to the characters, that I have actually begun to 
picture the actors as the characters in my mind's eye while rereading 
the books!>

Yes, the casting was spot on as far as I'm concerned and imagining 
these young, dare I say sweet, actors in these situations just make 
me, well, cringe.


As there are so many fanfic writers on here could you suggest well 
written canon fanfic that is preferably, G or PG written?  It's so 
difficult to wade through all the different kinds of fanfic that is 
out there.  I DID find one fanfic that I enjoyed.  It was written by 
Angie Astravic. http://www.fanfiction.net/profile.php?userid=9000


Gina




From timregan at microsoft.com  Tue Jan  7 17:48:03 2003
From: timregan at microsoft.com (Tim Regan <timregan@microsoft.com>)
Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 17:48:03 -0000
Subject: slash fiction - responses
In-Reply-To: <ave4vo+cko9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <avf3sj+jgdn@eGroups.com>

Hi All,

-- dianasdolls wrote: 
> I was referring specifically to the Lucius/Draco incestuous 
pairing 
> Cassie mentioned at the very beginning of post.  Even if that 
fanfic 
> piece was written by the greatest writer of all time, I would not 
> find an incestuous relationship between a father and son, even 
> between two characters I dislike [almost love to hate], in the 
> slightest bit appealing.

I do relate to this point, even though I haven't yet found the time 
to check out fan-fiction. There are two works, considered great, 
that I just cannot stand because of their subject matter. One is 
Nabokov's "Lolita", which I had to stop reading half way through 
since it was annoying me so much. The other's Nirvana's "Polly" 
which spoilt the whole album for me. I guess in each case I want the 
author to take a moral stand on the horrific acts they are 
describing. I can see three reasons for not doing so:
1) The authors don't find the acts horrific, which if the consumer 
does is a good reason to stop reading or listening.
2) The author wants to challenge the consumers' values. This might 
work but seems condescending on the authors' part.
3) The authors want to shock. But that doesn't seem reason enough. 
Shock is a good tactic against something which has grown stagnant 
(e.g. punk in the seventies) but I don't think that covers "Lolita" 
or "Polly".

Cheers,

Dumbledad





From dicentra at xmission.com  Tue Jan  7 17:58:32 2003
From: dicentra at xmission.com (dicentra63 <dicentra@xmission.com>)
Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 17:58:32 -0000
Subject: OoP release date -- more optimistic news
In-Reply-To: <3E1A0FE4.000001.31315@monica>
Message-ID: <avf4g8+kqi3@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Kathryn Cawte" <kcawte at b...>
wrote:
> Typed up from the current issue of Starburst.
> 
> Fifth Potter Novel Finished
> 
> "JK Rowling has announced that the latest installment of the Harry
Potter saga, 'The Order of the Phoenix', is finally complete.... the
author noted that, as she embarked on a round of final tweaking before
handing it to her publisher Bloomsbury..."

Alas, Bloomsbury's site does not indicate that they have the
manuscript in hand.  And until I hear it from *them*...

--Dicentra




From bray.262 at osu.edu  Tue Jan  7 14:01:11 2003
From: bray.262 at osu.edu (Rachel Bray)
Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 14:01:11 +0000 (EST5EDT)
Subject: A goal.....
Message-ID: <35BF3580226@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>

People in the Pheonix/Tempe area....I'm in love with your 
town.  I'm so in love with your town that I'm going to make 
it a goal to visit every January.

I got in from the Fiesta Bowl at 5 this morning.....to 
about a foot of snow.  Nooooooooo!!!!!!!!

Oh...and New Mexico folk (around the Ft. Sumner area), you 
really know how to put on a sunset!  WOW.

And Heidi.....the trip was very worthwhile.  :D

Rachel Bray
The Ohio State University
Fees & Deposits

The light at the end of the tunnel may be an 
angry, flying Ford Anglia.



From lmccabe at sonic.net  Tue Jan  7 19:31:18 2003
From: lmccabe at sonic.net (linda_mccabe <lmccabe@sonic.net>)
Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 19:31:18 -0000
Subject: More on Strange SHIPS
Message-ID: <avf9u6+jlci@eGroups.com>

Oh ho ho,
This is a topic that interests me.  I stumbled across a thread on 
Fiction Alley Park a few months ago that had me howling with 
laughter.  It's called Biggest Squicks IV: Ships that make you 
seasick.  Here's the link:

http://www.fictionalley.org//fictionalleypark/forums/showthread.php?
s=&threadid=15849

I had to read it in spurts because I was laughing so hard at the 
mere thought of some of these ships.  Now many of the messages are 
repetitive.  Most people posting find the same ones very skin 
crawling.  Specificially anything using necrophilia or ghost/human.  
There's also a consistent theme that any bestiality or 
Animagus/animal pairing is just plain wrong.  People had come across 
Hermione/Crookshanks and Harry/Hedwig.  Ugh!

And there's the incest issue as well.  Specifically Weasleycest and 
if you can believe it: twincest.  Those are things I really don't 
want to read.  I also couldn't read any teacher/student pairings or 
Sirius/Harry.  That's just abuse of trust and it goes on far too 
frequently in the real world for me to want to see that creep into 
the Potterverse.

On a side note, I personally don't like Remus/Sirius simply because 
I adore both of those characters and don't want to see what I think 
are the two sexiest adult characters in canon paired off together.  
I mean, where does that leave the adult female to fantasize herself 
as fitting in?  And don't give me Snape!  Ewwww!

But what made me just shake my head in wonder was the reported 
reading of a pairing that I can't fathom how it would move any 
plot.  And I ask you...how could *Hagrid/Tree* be used to further a 
plot function?  And I don't want to even consider what kind of 
character development it would serve either.

Ahh, I put in my posting on that thread that I purposefully included 
two unusual pairings that I knew would elicit a visceral response 
from my readers.  They were very minimal and implied, I wouldn't 
have spent too long on it because it disgusted me as well.  Those 
were Voldemort/Lilith Lestrange and Gran Longbottom/Lucius.  The 
last one was actually with the intent of having the reader grab 
their stomach in revulsion while fighting fits of laughter.

Athena

http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/L_C_McCabe/




From linkajarjarbinks at yahoo.com  Tue Jan  7 22:12:26 2003
From: linkajarjarbinks at yahoo.com (Matilda Trelawney)
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 14:12:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Strange SHIPs
In-Reply-To: <1041935168.25815@incanmonkey.com>
Message-ID: <20030107221226.18283.qmail@web12801.mail.yahoo.com>


  First of all, I want to apologise fro thinking you were a male. You must have said something to bet me thinking that, though what it was I don't remember. 
 Secondly, I just want you and everyone else to understand that what I MEANT was Men don't usually like older women, they usually go for younger women. But, there are many men who find women older then them more 'experienced'. But look, my point was, I really don't want to see Minerva and Severus together, because it's scary. I wasn't trying to say that it should only be younger women and older men. Although now looking at what I said, I can see why you'd get that idea.
 But anyway, back to my reasons. True, Hermione is also in Gryffindor, but I felt that Minerva was more of a Gryffindor then Hermione was, because Minerva herself was the Head of Gryffindor house. You get what I'm saying? And about Hermione being younger then Severus, I myself am younger then him. I've always felt like I was a little bit like Hermione, and I have always liked Snape. So, Hermione is kind of my way to having Severus, without being unfaithful, and because Severus dosen't exist anyway. 
 But about Madame Hooch, she probably would be a good partner for him- if she wasn't already married. Madame in french, bascily means Mrs., so obviously Hooch is married to a man with the last name well, Hooch. 
I hope I cleared some things up for you,
Michelle 
 bloubet at incanmonkey.com wrote:Matilda Trelawney said:

>>Well there's no need for everyone to get in a snit about it. I'm basing this on most of the men I've known. I'm sure there are exceptions, much like your aunts. I was referring to the stereotype. Stereotype's aren't just pulled out of thin air, you know. They are what commonly occours with a type of people, in this particular situation, men.
But aren't we getting a little off topic? The original conversation was why Minerva and Severus shouldn't be together. I really didn't mean to get all these people infuriated with me because of my own thoughts and opinions, and I'm sorry if you felt I was claiming that 70 year old women and 40 year old men just SHOULDN'T be together. I was just saying that Minerva/Severus don't seem like a particularly 'cute' couple, and I was only talking about Minerva/Severus parings, not every couple similar to the 'woman is older then the man' relationship.<<

Matilda Trelawney <linkajarjarbinks at y...> wrote:

> 3. As a guy, I'm sure you'll agree with me that men don't like
to 'date' or have romantic relationships with women who are 30 years
older then them. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I never thought 40
year old men found 70 year old women attractive.<

Me (Bel):
No snit here. Everyone is certainly entitled to their opinion. As I originally stated, I was just curious, because the age difference seemed to bother you for Minerva and Severus, but not for Hermione and Severus (who are approximately the same number of years apart).

I am curious as to where you got the impression that younger women like older men, but younger men don't like older women. I've dated men as much as 8 years younger than I am with no problem, and I have friends married to men 10-15 years younger. <shrug> I do admit, however, that, as I said before, there does seem to be much more acceptance in society for a 50-year-old man with a 25-year-old woman than there is for a couple with the ages reversed. Maybe it hearkens back to our tribal origins and biological imperatives -- men of any age can still breed, but only younger women can bear children. Hence, it's acceptable for men of any age to be with younger women, but older women (non-breeders) shouldn't be taking younger, virile men out of the breeding population. (Is my anthropology degree showing? <grin>)

I'm also curious where you got the impression that I'm a guy. <grin> (At least, I THINK that was the implication in number 3 above.) Definitely female. Over 40, and happily accepting applications for romance from any males age 21-60. No age discrimination here. <VBG>

To bring it back in line, I originally questioned your statements because you were seeming to use age difference and house affiliation as your reasons for heartily disliking Minerva/Severus shipping, yet were seeming to ignore the exact same differences (age and house) between Hermione and Severus. I wanted to discuss the two ships further to see why exactly the differences bothered you in one case but not the other. In general, BOTH ships don't work for me. But then, I'm not sure WHO I'd pair with Severus. <grin> While I can sort of understand the attraction to him, he just doesn't ring my bell. It would have to be someone who could sympathize with him without being soft about it, and who wouldn't take his sharp tongue personally. Hmmm -- maybe Hooch? <grin>

bel

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From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Wed Jan  8 00:37:29 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve <bboy_mn@yahoo.com>)
Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 00:37:29 -0000
Subject: Show Me The Money! Rupert's House.
In-Reply-To: <aunpvv+keik@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <avfrs9+k9tn@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Steve <bboy_mn at y...>"
<bboy_mn at y...> wrote:
> Does anybody have any links to sites, articles, or general knowledge
> that indicates how much the primary players (Daniel, Rupert, Emma,
> Tom) are getting paid for their roles in the HP movies?
> ...edited...
> 
> thank to all.
> 
> bboy_mn

bboy_mn:

Found this link a The Leaky Cauldron <www.the-leaky-cauldron.org>

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2003001703,00.html

>From the UK SUN tabloid newspaper (given that it's a tabloid, you can
decide how much stock you want to put in it as true.)

Seem that Rupert Grint has made ?500,000 (British Pounds; approx
US$800,000) so far. 

However, much like Daniel Radcliffe's parents, Rupert parents have
quit their jobs to become Rupert's fulltime highly paid chaperones.

>From Article in SUN:
The family pal added: "His dad sold his motor supplies business
because he and Jo have devoted themselves to Rupert's career."

To quote Filch; "Oooohhh dear, we are in trouble."

Rupert, as the article alledges has just bought his parents a 5
bedroom ?600,000 (US$936,000) house; one of 6 private houses on an
island in the middle of a large river. The Grint's sold their old
house for ?200,000 (US$321,00).

I guess it's not my position to micro-manager Rupert's life, but I've
always thought that this was the first sign post on the road to doom.
When the family becomes completely dependant on a child actor's
income, that puts a lot of presure on the child, and totally subverts
the parental authority. Not to mention comsuming money that is suppose
to be put away for the child's future security.

At least, Daniel's mother continues to work at her old job, and is
therefore, bringing in substantial income to the family. 

I think Rupert is a great guy and he, at least at this point, has very
good parents. But when the families financial existance, every trip to
the grocery story, every car payment and insurance payment weighs
heavely on the childs income and drains his money, you are heading for
a disasterous family dynamic.

Mr. Grint has sold his automobile memorabilia business, and given the
fact that they lived in a US$300,000 home, it must have been a good
business, and probably brought in a substantial sum of money. So, it's
not like they are broke without Rupert's money, but at the same time,
Rupert's money should be going into a protected financial trust, where
his money is protected, and invested wisely and concervatively, so
that his future life and education are secured by this money. I see
this as a very negative turn of events.

This is exactly the kind of thing I was worried about. It seems they
are banking on Rupert future income as an actor, and we all know that
the business of acting and being famous is very fickle. I remember
Danny B. from the Partridge Family TV show saying that when the show
was hot, as a 13 year old boy, he could walk into the fanciest
restaurants in Los Angeles and get a table immediately. The week they
canceled the show, he went to restaurants, and it was like he didn't
even exist. They just ignored him. Fame can be a very fleeting thing,
and is not something you want to bank on until the money is truly in
the bank.

I wish Rupert and his family the very best, but caution them to tread
careful on the thin ice of fame.

Just my opinion.

bboy_mn






From drednort at alphalink.com.au  Wed Jan  8 00:40:53 2003
From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately)
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 11:40:53 +1100
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Detentions
In-Reply-To: <av1b8c+gvql@eGroups.com>
References: <auvi9h+a13c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3E1C0E45.29979.6AA5CC@localhost>

Reposting this as I have realised it never arrived.

On 2 Jan 2003 at 12:27, Ali Ali at zymurgy.org wrote:

> I wonder how many of you have been fundamentally "shaped" by your 
> school experiences? I am certain that I was. I was deemed to be 
> a "chatterbox". Through both primary and secondary school I was 
> forced to move desk. Sometimes I was simply moved away from my 
> friends, sometimes directly in front of the teacher, and sometimes 
> outside the class. This happened too often and for too many years for 
> it to be a simple teacher/pupil personality clash, yet with some 
> teachers I never got moved and never got told off. But, I am equally 
> sure that nothing positive was achieved. I did well at school, my 
> friends were mostly high achievers, so I was hardly stopping anyone 
> from working. Once moved, I was often so annoyed and humiliated that 
> I did no work. I developed a strong sense of injustice, and became 
> quietly rebellious, organising strikes and other pointless 
> confrontations. I do believe that if I had been dealt with 
> differently, it could have saved me alot of heartache. Now, I veer 
> between being very quiet and non-stop talking, a trait I am sure, 
> developed as a result of my school experience.

I was *very* much shaped by my school experiences - both in a positive way, and in a 
negative way - I attended a lot of different schools - in the primary grades, my father was 
in the Royal Australian Navy and we moved a fair bit as he was posted. Secondary 
grades, the plan was I'd attend only one school - but it didn't work out that way.

I started year 7 - aged 12 - at the local Catholic secondary college. I refer to this school 
today as 'the school from hell'. This place was an absolute *disaster* in terms of 
discipline, etc, and embraced a lot of really trendy ideas. It didn't have any effective 
methods of imposing discipline, or punishing students, it felt bullies were people who 
needed help and understanding (which I agree with to a point - but not to the extent this 
school did where they allowed them to continue to do it to others, because it would have 
been 'judgemental' to stop them). I did have my head stuffed down a toilet and flushed, I 
was attacked by groups of over a hundred students, I would up needing medical 
attention - and when the school *finally* took notice (three quarters of the way through 
the school year) their response was to tell my parents I was 'retarded' (while I was 
getting the highest marks in my year level) and to give me lunchtime detentions for the 
rest of the year because I wasn't safe on the playground, and their policies didn't allow 
them to remove the bullies.

I came out of that school, very much shaped by my experiences - I was suicidal, and I 
would have killed myself rather than go back. I still suffer from the clinical depression I 
developed in that year (though fortunately for me, medication works wonderfully well, so 
if I take my pills, I'm free of it)

It also left me with an absolutely *burning* need to deal with injustice in the education 
system, and bullying in particular.

The following year, I went elsewhere  - my school had insisted I have testing to prove to 
my parents I was mentally disabled - well, what it actually showed was precisely the 
opposite, and with the help of the psychologist I was sent to see, at the start of Year 8, I 
was enrolled in one of Australia's most 'prestigious' private schools - one of those that 
sprang up here in the 1800s as colonial copies of the British Public Schools. For Year 8, 
I went to one of it's two preparatory schools - and it was exactly what I needed.

One of the reasons HP grabbed me when I first picked up Philosopher's Stone was 
because I felt real parallels between Harry's experiences and my own. I always had a 
good homelife so it wasn't a total match. But in a very real sense, I could relate to what 
Harry experienced.

I endured abuse, hatred, because of who I was - and then over a short period of time, I 
suddenly discovered I was different from others in a special way (in my case, I was 
'intellectually gifted' - not as cool as being a wizard), and without much in the way of 
preparation or warning I found myself in what was close to a different world - I was a 
working class kid, from one of the highest crime housing estates in my state, suddenly in 
an educational environment which I'd only ever dreamed of. I loved it. I loved it all. I 
loved my school uniform, with its blazer and tie, I loved the hundred year old buildings 
(bear in mind that back then, Australia had only had European settlement for 200 years - 
so a school that was over 100 years old was *very* old to me). I loved it all.

And the place saved my life. Saved my life, made me able to be happy again. It was - 
mostly - bliss.

The thing is this school had unusually strict discipline and rules - it even still had 
corporal punishment. That's pretty much what I needed - the discipline meant bullying 
was rare, and when it did occur, it was dealt with. It also worked for me - it really helped 
me to develop into a useful person - something I wanted to be, but lacked the self 
discipline at times, to manage without a bit of coercion.

Not saying what I needed was right for everyone - because it isn't.

My point is though, school was able to shape me positively as well - I think, because 
after that year of hell I was lucky enough to wind up in an educational establishment that 
was right for *me*. It wasn't perfect by any stretch - academically I still wasn't getting 
what I needed (although I can't see any school having been able to do that at the time, 
given policies imposed on them from above - it was probably as good as they could 
manage).

> I was perhaps lucky as I did still benefit from my education, but how 
> many little rebels, simply turn away from school and leave without 
> qualifications and perhaps worse still a feeling of alienation from 
> authority? I would like to think that there is a way of harnessing 
> this teenage desire for independence and rebellion rather than just 
> alienation.

Personal view - what's needed is a range of schools, a range of methods - education 
seems to be too hung up on a 'one size fits all' mentality - schools are based on a 
theoretical 'average' child - and everyone's expected to fit more or less into that neat 
box. When there are accomodations made for individual differences, mostly they are 
tacked on as extras, rather begrudgingly.

What's needed - in my humble opinion, of course - is an understanding that not all 
educational methods are right for all kids - and they shouldn't be expected to be. That's 
why this detention article attracted my attention.

It may be that for this girl, detention wasn't a good idea - if she got 11 in 9 months 
(unless the school hands out of a lot of them) that could be a sign that for her, it just isn't 
working. But what's the response - an attempt to get it banned for *all* children.

That's an illustration of the problem I see - something isn't right for one kid - so let's get 
rid of it for all kids. It's the most profoundly stupid attitude I can imagine.

Look elsewhere - take penicillin (or any other antibiotic). It doesn't work for all people, 
some people have adverse reactions to it - but nobody seriously suggests you therefore 
ban its use for everyone.

But that often does seem to be the approach in education.

And nobody seems to care about the possible problems they can create. I've been to a 
school where discipline was non-existant - and it almost killed me - so the idea of court 
rulings that unilaterally remove a disiplinary method from schools worries me greatly.

I was almost killed by a lack of school discipline - and saved by a school that had a lot of 
it, including corporal punishment.

My experiences, applied universally, would indicate to me that we should force all kids 
into regimented systems, old fashioned uniforms and apply liberal doses of the cane.

Obviously, that's not a good idea - for a lot of kids, that would be hellishly, cruelly 
useless. It wouldn't help them, it'd harm them.

There's no such thing (IMHO) as a system that works for *everyone*. And virtually 
everytime schools make a change for the benefit of their students, they only benefit 
some, and harm others.

What we need is a range of methods - so we can help kids like I was, who benefitted 
from discipline and order, and regulation - but also help kids who need the freedom to 
be themselves, to develop into who they want to be. And everyone in between, or at 
right angles or with any other relationship to all those groups.



Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought
Shaun Hately |webpage: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html
(ISTJ)       |email: drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200
"You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in
common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter
the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen
to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who:
The Face of Evil | Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia




From rvotaw at i-55.com  Wed Jan  8 01:22:41 2003
From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw)
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 19:22:41 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Show Me The Money! Rupert's House.
References: <avfrs9+k9tn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <010201c2b6b4$784288b0$9ea1cdd1@RVotaw>


bboy_mn:

> However, much like Daniel Radcliffe's parents, Rupert parents have
> quit their jobs to become Rupert's fulltime highly paid chaperones.
> At least, Daniel's mother continues to work at her old job, and is
> therefore, bringing in substantial income to the family. 

One parent quitting work, I can see.  These kids definitely need a full time chaperone.  But two?  Daniel's mother working provides a sense of normalcy even if the money isn't needed.  

> I guess it's not my position to micro-manager Rupert's life, but I've
> always thought that this was the first sign post on the road to doom.
> When the family becomes completely dependant on a child actor's
> income, that puts a lot of presure on the child, and totally subverts
> the parental authority. Not to mention comsuming money that is suppose
> to be put away for the child's future security.
> 
> This is exactly the kind of thing I was worried about. It seems they
> are banking on Rupert future income as an actor, and we all know that
> the business of acting and being famous is very fickle. 

Now Rupert has said several times that he wants to act.  Forever, basically.  Daniel, of course, being much more open minded may act, write, direct, or who knows (as he is so fond of saying).  Now, not trying to insult anyone, but I would say that after three or more HP movies, anyone's likely to get stereotyped.  Daniel has an advantage.  He can take off the glasses.  Naturally, glasses aren't everything.  But right now (and things might change, and this is just me I'm speaking of here) I look at a picture of Daniel with glasses on and think "Harry Potter" first.  I look at a picture of Daniel without glasses and think "Daniel Radcliffe."  Rupert doesn't have that advantage.  I can look at his picture anywhere and the first thing I think is "Ron Weasley."  Then later it occurs to me, yes of course, Rupert Grint.  Which could be why he got that hair cut after the filming of CoS.  Maybe.

Anyway, what I'm trying to say here is at this early time in their careers I could more easily visualize Daniel with a future in acting (in other things) than Rupert.  Rupert is adorable.  But he's being stereotyped, not just as Ron Weasley, but as a comic character.  Of course, with any luck that'll change in PoA.

Also, Daniel's dad is a literary agent.  Theoretically, it wouldn't be too hard to start work again.  Rupert's dad sold his entire business.  That's a lot tougher to go back to.

Not to mention Daniel's an only child, while Rupert has four siblings he's now supporting!

Richelle


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From cureluv88 at hotmail.com  Wed Jan  8 00:50:20 2003
From: cureluv88 at hotmail.com (Liz <cureluv88@hotmail.com>)
Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 00:50:20 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter Class
Message-ID: <avfskc+a5fp@eGroups.com>

Hi,

I'm going to be teaching a three or four week class through the 
continuing education department of the community college I live near, 
and I was wondering if anyone on here could help me out a little.  
I'm looking for good essays or posts that I can give to my class to 
read, but rather than just searching through HPFGU (or leaving a note 
on there and risking reprimand since this is off-topic) I thought I'd 
write a note on here.  Does anyone know of anything good written on 
Snape's treatment of Harry, something for or against R/H shipping, or 
something on prejudice??  Or any other good ideas?  I'm looking for 
inspiration.  So you can write back here or email me at 
rbf4eva at hotmail.com

Thanks a lot,
Liz 





From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Wed Jan  8 01:38:08 2003
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd <jkusalavagemd@yahoo.com>)
Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 01:38:08 -0000
Subject: Fanfics with slash & sex...I don't get it
In-Reply-To: <OCEOIOOCLDBFPDHBBCEMEEHMCLAA.morrigan@byz.org>
Message-ID: <avfve0+8bhh@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Vicki" <morrigan at b...> wrote:
> I'm undoubtedly going to be repeating some of what others have 
said, but
> here's my 2 knuts all the same.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Diana Lucas
> 
> >Extremely disgusting.  I'm glad my son doesn't know
> >how to read my email or find fanfics online.  Triple
> >yecch!
> 
> I certainly think that everyone is entitled to likes and dislikes, 
but the
> "extremely disgusting" comment seems... rather rude, like talking 
down or
> condemning anyone who likes that.  I'm going to just point that out 
while
> assuming that isn't the way you meant it to come across.
> 

This is a recurring thread of discussion among us HP fans, and one 
likely never to be resolved.  If Vicki really holds that everyone is 
entitled to their likes and dislikes, then two conclusions (among 
others) immediately follow:
1. Diane is equally entitled to her opinion about 
slash/incest/bestiality/what have you in HP fanfic, and she has a 
precisely equal right to express that feeling.  To rule that this 
particular opinion is not desrving of the same toleration as thouse 
who would pair Hagrid with Dennis Creavey, is at best inconsistent, 
at worst censorship of the saem kind as is implicitly condemned by 
the criticism of Diane's position, and condescending and patronizing 
to boot.
2. there is no point in having the above discussion in the first 
place, because if any one point of view were to prevail in argument, 
it would violate that sacred principle of all opinions are equally 
valid.

I trust that you can see that this is an example of a proof 
by "reductio ad absurdum" and that it shows that it is logically 
bankrupt to hold that "everybody is entitled to their likes and 
dislikes" means that nobody can criticize another's opinion.

If the Harry Potter
> >books introduced a gay/lesbian character I wouldn't
> >try to pair that character up with someone of the
> >opposite sex in a fanfic I wrote, so I can't see
> >trying to pair up hetrosexual characters with someone
> >of the same sex.
> 
> As more than one person has pointed out, we don't KNOW what any of 
their
> sexual orientations are.  

I think that this is deliberately disingenuous.  It relies on two 
asumptions: 1. if JKR does not explicitly delineate a character's 
sexuality, then he/she/it could have any possible orientation; and 
2.  Even if the sexual orientation is shown, then they still could be 
bi, or gay, or evolving in their sexuality.  I offer in partial 
demonstration of this Vicki's point immediately below.  Have you 
never heard of self-fulfilling prophecies?


Even those characters that have shown attraction
> or interest in another character of the opposite sex could in fact 
be
> bisexual, or even unsure of his or her own homosexuality.  I would 
honestly
> be shocked - pleasantly, but still shocked - if JKR ever introduces 
a
> character that is queer, be it gay, lesbian or bi.  I have never 
heard JKR
> make any sort of comment, either negative or positive, about queer 
folk, not
> to mention I can guess that her editors and publishers would BEG 
for her to
> change it.  Regardless of the fact that many of us would cheer such 
an
> addition, the negative people would far outrule us.
> 

"The negative people"  How is this for an "ad hominem attack?  How 
far does this go up that rudeness scale?


> 
> >Besides, I can't see 11 to
> >14-year-old children [the age span of Harry, Ron and
> >Hermione from PS/SS through GoF] being written as
> >having sex at all.  Why can't child characters remain
> >children without people writing about them having sex?
> >Yeah, free country, I know, so the writers have a
> >right to write that if they wish - and I support their
> >right to do it - I just refuse to read it.
> 
> The majority of people who write about sexual situations age the 
characters
> up.  As one of the moderators for RestrictedSection.org, an NC-17 
HP fanfic
> archive, I had to help decide what our cutoff would be.  You'd 
think that
> would be easy, but it wasn't.  We finally decided on 15, feeling 
that was
> the age when teenagers really tended to start dating and doing more 
than
> just holding hands.  JKR herself has said that there will be 
relationships
> happening because the main characters are getting older, and that 
IS what
> happens.  Granted, I doubt she will get into the intimate details, 
but it
> will be there, I have no doubt.
>

I personally have no problem with Vicki's or anyones right to write 
these stories.  Even as an adult, I do object to having my nose 
rubbed in them.  The powerful images in these stories create 
involuntary images that harm my mental picture of the HP world as 
written by JKR.  This effect was most excellently described on the 
mother list last year as the "tube of goo" effect (i.e., once we have 
been exposed to the thought of Sirius squeezing out the tube of goo 
in preparation for his tryst with Harry, even the most strong willed 
of us cannot shake the image).

A slash mb or slash section in FA or some other site would allow 
readers to know precisely what they are getting into-- so to speak-- 
and any complaints thereafter would have little validity. 

> >It's fun to dream up alternate stories for the
> >characters from TV shows and movies, but the best fan
> >fiction I've ever read, whether it's Star Trek, Star
> >Wars, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, The X-Files or Lord of
> >the Rings, has kept true to the characters as
> >envisioned and outlined by the ORIGINAL
> >creators/writers of the characters.
> 
> I am a complete and utter Canon Whore (tm), so I do know what 
you're saying.
> But part of the problem is that even with canon, every person who 
reads the
> books can interpret canon differently.  The best example I can give 
is
> shipping - my personal canon ship is Ron/Hermione, but there are 
plenty of
> people out there who are certain that canon suggests that Harry and 
Hermione
> will get together.  Who's right and who's wrong?  At this point, 
there IS no
> answer, and I personally see no problem extrapolating from what JKR 
has
> given us so far.  It's fun to speculate, but my point is - even 
canon can be
> argued.
> 
In response to this, I can only say that there are degrees of 
plausibility in speculation, and Diane, myself-- and more others that 
you might want to admit-- feel similarly. It is the utter closed-
mindedness that we encounter when we broach this issue that 
discourages free and open discussion about it.

> 
> >I know I sound like a prude or some religious fanatic,
> >but I swear I'm not.  I just can't fathom the appeal
> >of those kinds of fanfics at all and am admitting it.
> 
> I wish I could explain to you why I or anyone else finds it 
interesting and
> fun to write slash or sex fics.  Again, I could give you my 
reasons, but
> they'd probably be meaningless.  I think it may just come down to 
taste -
> some people like vanilla, some people like chocolate, some people 
like
> peanut butter fudge ripple.  There's no right or wrong involved.
> 
It is the "in your face" aspects of each side of this issue that is 
wrong.

Haggridd
"Beta Readers do it to perfection."
> Morrigan
> www.RestrictedSection.org
> www.livejournal.com/users/hermorrine
> www.byz.org/~morrigan/hpslash.html





From john at queerasjohn.com  Wed Jan  8 04:34:11 2003
From: john at queerasjohn.com (Queer as John)
Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 04:34:11 +0000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Fanfics with slash & sex...I don't get
	it
In-Reply-To: <avfve0+8bhh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <BA415AC3.4E5D%john@queerasjohn.com>

Before I start, I'd like to say that I'm taking the common definition of
slash as gay pairings, m/m or f/f. I do *not* count explicit non-gay
pairings as slash, however subtextual (Dumbledore/Sinistra all the way!)
they may be. I point out that "slash" has been argued to mean any subtextual
pairing, regardless of the participants' gender(s); for ease of use,
however, I take the common definition.

Haggridd <jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com> said:

> I trust that you can see that this is an example of a proof
> by "reductio ad absurdum" and that it shows that it is logically
> bankrupt to hold that "everybody is entitled to their likes and
> dislikes" means that nobody can criticize another's opinion.

To quote a certain Ent, "It doesn't make sense to me, but then again you are
very small." I've always held that it's possible to have a meaningful
discussion without recourse to terms like "logically bankrupt", "reductio ad
absurdum" and "deliberately disingenous".

In addition, HPFGU policy has *always* been to use words which respect
others opinions while at the same time advancing one's own.

> I personally have no problem with Vicki's or anyones right to write
> these stories.  Even as an adult, I do object to having my nose
> rubbed in them.  

<snip>

> A slash mb or slash section in FA or some other site would allow
> readers to know precisely what they are getting into--so to speak--
> and any complaints thereafter would have little validity.

Well, that's certainly true. However, the vast majority of slash stories are
labelled as such in order to prevent theme-related flames from homophobes.
In addition, most slash writers will increase the rating of their fics by at
least one point in order to be on the safe side. Furthermore, most Authors'
Notes/Summaries proclaim clearly all warnings, pairings, themes and age
warnings.

Frankly, I'd much rather see

In my experience, it's *very* difficult to stumble onto slash fics without
knowing what's contained therein. Mine, for example, are hosted and linked
to from www.queerasjohn.com and http://queerasjohn.livejournal.com -- domain
names which portray what's behind the metaphorical curtain. Even on FA, my
fics have slash warnings and mentions of the pairings either before clicking
on the story or in the summary and author's note at the top of the page.

As for the "nose-rubbing", I thought we were avoiding ad hominem attacks and
loaded words.

> In response to this, I can only say that there are degrees of
> plausibility in speculation, and Diane, myself-- and more others that
> you might want to admit-- feel similarly. It is the utter closed-
> mindedness that we encounter when we broach this issue that
> discourages free and open discussion about it.

As a slasher, and one of the very few male slashers, I have to say that I
share your opinion. It's too often that we find someone espousing the cause
of free speech while at the same time insisting that simply because of their
sexual-orientation related material, fics be forcibly separated somehow from
other types of fic, simply because of who the relationship is between. And,
moreover, what about a rollicking adventure story which contains a slash
pairing? The Draco Dormiens/Sinister/Veritas trilogy, for example, contains
one. Where to draw the line? And *why* draw the line?

> It is the "in your face" aspects of each side of this issue that is
> wrong.

I couldn't agree more.

--John

______________________________________

Queer as John || john at queerasjohn.com

AIM, YM & LJ @ QueerAsJohn || www.queerasjohn.com

"There's nowt as queer as folk."  --English proverb
______________________________________




From dradamsapple at yahoo.com  Wed Jan  8 04:40:28 2003
From: dradamsapple at yahoo.com (dradamsapple <dradamsapple@yahoo.com>)
Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 04:40:28 -0000
Subject: Witchcraft and Wizadry/"Charmed"
Message-ID: <avga3s+hgjl@eGroups.com>

Good evening everyone!

I figured I'd lighten up the postings a bit and ask a question/favor;

I have recently become a fan of the TV show "Charmed".  The 
similarities between it and some of the HP fanfics I've read  are 
remarkable, especially the PoU series, where all the HP characters 
are *grown-up*.   The fact that Pheobe, Page and Piper are all grown 
women with husbands, jobs, and 'real lives', and still have to deal 
with vanquishing demons, just makes me smile! 
 
Anyhow, I don't usually have a chance to see it on a regular basis as 
I work evenings, and If I'm not working, it's bedtime for the 
kiddies, so I've missed a lot.

What I'm asking is if any of you are also "Charmed" fans, If you 
could steer me to some good fan sites. Maybe email me offline. 
I'd like to find out more about the history of the three sisters, and 
the background of the show.  I know that Shannon Doherty used to be 
on the show, and frankly, I don't care for the actress, and never was 
interested in watching her, so it's only when the "long-lost" sister 
arrived that I started watching it. I'm not quite addicted yet, but I 
really enjoy it, and I sometimes feel lost about what is going on.

My email is  . . .    dradamsapple at yahoo.com

Thanks,   Anna   . . .  

 




From heidit at netbox.com  Wed Jan  8 07:59:00 2003
From: heidit at netbox.com (heiditandy)
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 02:59:00 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Fanfics with slash & sex...I don't get it
In-Reply-To: <avfve0+8bhh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <053b01c2b6eb$ce68a710$0301a8c0@Frodo>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Haggridd <jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com> 
> A slash mb or slash section in FA or some other site would allow 
> readers to know precisely what they are getting into-- so to speak-- 
> and any complaints thereafter would have little validity. 


People do complain, though. People complain in reviews - more on ffn
than on FA, from what I've seen in the past 18 months. For example, if
you see a fic which is labled <<Harry/Draco Slash!>> then it seems
disingenuous to complain in the review that the fic features two boys
kissing - or thinking about kissing - each other. 

But on the same note, why should a fic like Lori's Paradigm of
Uncertainty, which contains a few gay characters, be obligated to
plaster warnings all over the story saying things like <<Gay Characters
Who Are Never Shown Actually Having Intimate Relations Contained
Herein>> without also saying that the fic contains <<Heterosexual
Characters Who Are In Their Late 20's-Early 30's Who Are Actually Shown
Having Intimate Relations Contained Herein>>? Why should she be held to
a different standard than, say, Pay Conroy, whose Prince of Tides
features a prominent character who self-identifies as a lesbian?

Look, if we required warnings for books, so the reader didn't have to
risk seeing anything upsetting, would we have this for Goblet of Fire?



Deaths of one character in the same chapter in which he first appears,
death of an underage character at unexpected moment, described murder of
adult character by his son, many het pairings at dance and other school
activities, at least three het adult pairings, one pairing involving a
gender-unspecific character dancing with a character who has only one
leg and an eye that can see through clothing (both injuries occurred in
backstory), one naked underage character in bathtub being watched by
underage ghost, one adult character steps naked from a large cauldron
and is robed by another male character, one character engages in
self-mutilation in manner which might be similar to cutting, multiple
transformations of characters into animals, including one noncon
transformation which includes underage character being bounced from
floor to ceiling, one scene takes place in graveyard, underage character
is tied to tombstone and subjected to bloodletting, underage character
and other character battle with wands, a spider is killed, four
characters are made unconscious and tied to a rock under a lake, one
character makes possibly sexually harrassing joke about "Uranus", one
het hug and various het kisses, verbal and physical assaults via mail on
female character, imprisonment of antagonist character in beetle form,
hero and friends cause three underage characters to become unconscious,
much consumption of sweets and nonalcoholic drinks, some alcoholic
beverages mentioned and consumed (off page) by horses, consumption of
slightly alcoholic beverages by nonhuman character to the point of
drunkenness, noncon levitation of minor characters (including forcible
showing of one such character's undergarments), assault via food on
underage character, enslavement of dozens, if not hundreds, of minor
characters...



Heidi, who notes that FA will never have a specific section for slash,
because it would likely violate a few antidiscrimination statutes,
whereas requiring appropriate ratings and warnings, where necessary, for
all fics would not




From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Wed Jan  8 14:36:57 2003
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David <dfrankiswork@netscape.net>)
Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 14:36:57 -0000
Subject: Pardon my French
Message-ID: <avhd29+id6t@eGroups.com>

Highlight of my day yesterday.

On the Ten O'clock News, the BBC's chief political correspondent, 
Andrew Marr, said, in the context of an apparent disagreement over 
Iraq between our Foreign and Defence ministers:

"It's a bit like the situation in the US, where you have the State 
Department (that's like our Foreign Office here) wanting to put 
together alliances and build political consensus, and the Department 
of Defense, who just want to get out there and kick some ass - 
that's an American expression, of course"

David




From southernscotland at yahoo.com  Wed Jan  8 14:47:12 2003
From: southernscotland at yahoo.com (\lila phillips)
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 06:47:12 -0800 (PST)
Subject: slash
In-Reply-To: <1042023870.430.2561.m12@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20030108144712.95257.qmail@web41104.mail.yahoo.com>

Okay, I have read some slash and it's been very
well-done. However, in general I don't prefer it.
Although it can't be done, it would indeed be nice if
slash were separated in the four houses, so that
everyone could get to what they wanted. Then everyone
could live in greater harmony.

Also, I would love to recommend the site to my
daughter, but I can't. I don't want her to know what
slash is right now. I could show her some of the other
stories, I guess.

One other thing: I have heard from some that they will
not come to Fiction Alley any more, because they have
to go through so much of the slash. I'm sure that some
of you will say, "Good riddance!" but I think it's a
shame. They are missing some good general fics that
way. 

In the interests of peace, maybe a button could be
added to show which fic summaries contain the word
"slash", and if desired, for search results to leave
out fics containing that term? Sort of a reverse
keyword? 

The fanfic world will grow a great deal once the new
book is published. I've only been around a little over
a year, and have seen this argument come up more than
once. Perhaps another possible solution to this
disagreement can be found before The Order of the
Phoenix comes out.

Please don't kill the messenger here - just trying to
help. I enjoy Fiction Alley a great deal. 


lilahp


__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com



From heidit at netbox.com  Wed Jan  8 15:14:57 2003
From: heidit at netbox.com (heiditandy)
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 10:14:57 -0500
Subject: Some things about FA
In-Reply-To: <20030108144712.95257.qmail@web41104.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <059901c2b728$b5845a40$0301a8c0@Frodo>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: \lila phillips [mailto:southernscotland at yahoo.com] 


> One other thing: I have heard from some that they will
> not come to Fiction Alley any more, because they have
> to go through so much of the slash. I'm sure that some
> of you will say, "Good riddance!" but I think it's a
> shame. They are missing some good general fics that
> way. 

Actually, I just think they're missing something inherent in the
organization of the site, because I can't understand what they'd be
refering to when they say "go through so much of the slash". 

You don't have to go "through" anything to get to a list of new fics.
Simple as that. I mean, the front page of each of the houses
(http://www.schnoogle.com, http://www.astronomytower.org,
http://www.riddikulus.org, http://www.thedarkarts.org) has a list of all
the new fics. You don't have to read the stories themselves at all to
see which ones you might be interested in reading. 

And if one only wants to read fics of certain pairings, there will be
*one* moment when the word *slash* appears in front of your eyes - it's
when you're on the front page of FictionAlley Park, where we have one
specific forum for discussion of slash topics - and one might actually
read the description for that forum on one's way to the CRUISIN' forum,
where people post fics sorted by SHIP. Then, you bookmark the thread
which has the SHIP you're interested in, and check it regularly, or
subscribe to it, and you can then see what new fics feature or include
said SHIP.

I'm not really worried about what happens when OOTP comes out because
we're going to have a completely different "front end" at that point
(presuming the Scholastic site is accurate and the book doesn't come out
before June 1, as I don't think our new setup will be done before
April). We certainly want to make it easy for people to find the fics
they want with specificity, but it takes time to create an entirely new
front end and back end. 

And here's the punchline to all this - even if we *had* separate houses
for romancey slash fics, dramatic/angsty slash fics, novel-length slash
fics and humerous slash fics *they'd all still be on the front page of
the blog and interspersed with the other fics on the reviewboard
anyway*. In part this is because we don't really have the funding now to
cover an additional two reviewboards (which would be pushing $400 in
software owned-license fees). But one of the things about FA is that it
lists *everything* together. Believe me, I know there are people who
refuse to read any fics that have the H/H ship in them - and if they
come to FA, they *still* have to *see* the summaries of those fics on
the front page or reviewboard. And they certainly hate H/H fics of any
rating, with a large amount of "grr, argh!" 

FA is a comprehensive archive - that's what it was created to be, and
what's what it's going to continue to be. By creating more pinpointed
searching tools, we're just acknowledging that the fandom is a lot
larger now than it was when FA started 18 months ago. We've grown from
about 1100 users to over 17,000 in about a year - and all those users
have different needs and things they want to see on FA. We're looking at
all of that as we pull together our new front-and-back-end. But as I
said above, none of these changes are going to be instantaneous. There's
no technical way they could be. 


heidi




From heidit at netbox.com  Wed Jan  8 15:39:53 2003
From: heidit at netbox.com (heiditandy <heidit@netbox.com>)
Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 15:39:53 -0000
Subject: More on Strange SHIPS
In-Reply-To: <avf9u6+jlci@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <avhgo9+m4um@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "linda_mccabe 
<lmccabe at s...>" <lmccabe at s...> wrote:
> Oh ho ho,
> This is a topic that interests me.  I stumbled across a thread on 
> Fiction Alley Park a few months ago that had me howling with 
> laughter.  It's called Biggest Squicks IV: Ships that make you 
> seasick.  Here's the link:
> 
> 
http://www.fictionalley.org//fictionalleypark/forums/showthread.php?
> s=&threadid=15849

> There's also a consistent theme that any bestiality or 
> Animagus/animal pairing is just plain wrong.  People had come 
across 
> Hermione/Crookshanks and Harry/Hedwig.  Ugh!

Harry/Hedwig is actually a running joke in the fandom - well, joke 
to everyone but Simon Branford that is, as his pet theory is that 
Hedwig is an animagus or trapped (like some birds in old Grimm 
fairytales) in the body of a bird against her will. And the ideal 
Harry/Hedwig fic wouldn't include any relations while Hedwig is in 
bird form, but after she's transformed/been freed from her 
imprisoning spell, their love will blossom into a OTP (one true 
pairing) of wonder and magnificence. 

Or something like that. I think Simon came up with the theory in the 
first round of ship wars, to say that he was an H/H shipper, but not 
Harry/Hermione.

heidi, maintaining the fandom history books since 2000




From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk  Wed Jan  8 16:29:32 2003
From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte)
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 16:29:32 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Pardon my French
References: <avhd29+id6t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3E1C51EC.000005.04383@monica>



-------Original Message-------

From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
Date: 08 January 2003 14:37:01
To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Pardon my French

Highlight of my day yesterday.

On the Ten O'clock News, the BBC's chief political correspondent, 
Andrew Marr, said, in the context of an apparent disagreement over 
Iraq between our Foreign and Defence ministers:

"It's a bit like the situation in the US, where you have the State 
Department (that's like our Foreign Office here) wanting to put 
together alliances and build political consensus, and the Department 
of Defense, who just want to get out there and kick some ass - 
that's an American expression, of course"

David


I love Andrew marr he's great fun to listen to. Although I have noticed
recently he and the English language don't always have a close relationship,
but he's better than a lot of others. The BBC's guy in Iraq (no idea who, I
wasn't paying that much attention) was asked if the people of Iraq felt war
was inevitable and he said no they think it's unavoidable .... *blink* Do
you think we could send the guy a copy of Roget? 

K



From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Wed Jan  8 17:24:21 2003
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd <jkusalavagemd@yahoo.com>)
Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 17:24:21 -0000
Subject: Fanfics with slash & sex...I don't get it
In-Reply-To: <053b01c2b6eb$ce68a710$0301a8c0@Frodo>
Message-ID: <avhms5+lu4d@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "heiditandy" <heidit at n...> 
wrote:
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Haggridd <jkusalavagemd at y...> 
> > A slash mb or slash section in FA or some other site would allow 
> > readers to know precisely what they are getting into-- so to 
speak-- 
> > and any complaints thereafter would have little validity. 
> 
> 
> People do complain, though. People complain in reviews - more on ffn
> than on FA, from what I've seen in the past 18 months. For example, 
if
> you see a fic which is labled <<Harry/Draco Slash!>> then it seems
> disingenuous to complain in the review that the fic features two 
boys
> kissing - or thinking about kissing - each other. 
>

It surely does!
 
> But on the same note, why should a fic like Lori's Paradigm of
> Uncertainty, which contains a few gay characters, be obligated to
> plaster warnings all over the story saying things like <<Gay 
Characters
> Who Are Never Shown Actually Having Intimate Relations Contained
> Herein>> without also saying that the fic contains <<Heterosexual
> Characters Who Are In Their Late 20's-Early 30's Who Are Actually 
Shown
> Having Intimate Relations Contained Herein>>? Why should she be 
held to
> a different standard than, say, Pay Conroy, whose Prince of Tides
> features a prominent character who self-identifies as a lesbian?
>

As for me, Heidi, the presence of gay OC's doesn't bother me at all, 
even if they engage in explicit sexual behavior.  It is the use of 
JKR's characters in what I contend is in a way entirely contrary to 
the way she envisioned and wrote them, characters that I love and 
think about as often as anyone on the mb, that upsets me so.  It is 
not the homosexuality that bothers me, but that HARRY is doing it, 
that HERMIONE is doing it, that HAGRID (eeek!) is doing it. 

> Look, if we required warnings for books, so the reader didn't have 
to
> risk seeing anything upsetting, would we have this for Goblet of 
Fire?
> 
> 
> 
> Deaths of one character in the same chapter in which he first 
appears,
> death of an underage character at unexpected moment, described 
murder of
> adult character by his son, many het pairings at dance and other 
school
> activities, at least three het adult pairings, one pairing 
involving a
> gender-unspecific character dancing with a character who has only 
one
> leg and an eye that can see through clothing (both injuries 
occurred in
> backstory), one naked underage character in bathtub being watched by
> underage ghost, one adult character steps naked from a large 
cauldron
> and is robed by another male character, one character engages in
> self-mutilation in manner which might be similar to cutting, 
multiple
> transformations of characters into animals, including one noncon
> transformation which includes underage character being bounced from
> floor to ceiling, one scene takes place in graveyard, underage 
character
> is tied to tombstone and subjected to bloodletting, underage 
character
> and other character battle with wands, a spider is killed, four
> characters are made unconscious and tied to a rock under a lake, one
> character makes possibly sexually harrassing joke about "Uranus", 
one
> het hug and various het kisses, verbal and physical assaults via 
mail on
> female character, imprisonment of antagonist character in beetle 
form,
> hero and friends cause three underage characters to become 
unconscious,
> much consumption of sweets and nonalcoholic drinks, some alcoholic
> beverages mentioned and consumed (off page) by horses, consumption 
of
> slightly alcoholic beverages by nonhuman character to the point of
> drunkenness, noncon levitation of minor characters (including 
forcible
> showing of one such character's undergarments), assault via food on
> underage character, enslavement of dozens, if not hundreds, of minor
> characters...
> 
I choose to regars last passage of yours as exaggeration for effect, 
and not to be taken at face value.
> 
> Heidi, who notes that FA will never have a specific section for 
slash,
> because it would likely violate a few antidiscrimination statutes,
> whereas requiring appropriate ratings and warnings, where 
necessary, for
> all fics would not

What statutes?  There are no such.  I do agree with you, however, 
that even this wouldn't solve the problem of those idiots who will 
enter this "slash tower" read a fic and flame it for being slash.

Haggridd

Haggridd





From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Wed Jan  8 17:02:00 2003
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd <jkusalavagemd@yahoo.com>)
Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 17:02:00 -0000
Subject: Fanfics with slash & sex...I don't get it
In-Reply-To: <BA415AC3.4E5D%john@queerasjohn.com>
Message-ID: <avhli8+c44j@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Queer as John <john at q...> 
wrote:
> Before I start, I'd like to say that I'm taking the common 
definition of
> slash as gay pairings, m/m or f/f. I do *not* count explicit non-gay
> pairings as slash, however subtextual (Dumbledore/Sinistra all the 
way!)
> they may be. I point out that "slash" has been argued to mean any 
subtextual
> pairing, regardless of the participants' gender(s); for ease of use,
> however, I take the common definition.
> 

I have included them in following that previously stated principle 
that everyone's likes and dislikes are equally valid.  If you do not 
desire to defend these other pairings in fanfic that is up to you, 
but does it imply that you feel that they are any less worthy than 
Ron Hermione or Hagrid/Harry?

> Haggridd <jkusalavagemd at y...> said:
> 
> > I trust that you can see that this is an example of a proof
> > by "reductio ad absurdum" and that it shows that it is logically
> > bankrupt to hold that "everybody is entitled to their likes and
> > dislikes" means that nobody can criticize another's opinion.
> 
> To quote a certain Ent, "It doesn't make sense to me, but then 
again you are
> very small." I've always held that it's possible to have a 
meaningful
> discussion without recourse to terms like "logically 
bankrupt", "reductio ad
> absurdum" and "deliberately disingenous".
> 
> In addition, HPFGU policy has *always* been to use words which 
respect
> others opinions while at the same time advancing one's own.
> 

"Deliberately disingenuous" was a statement of my opinion, one of 
those equally valid ones.  "Reduction ad absurdum" is an old term, 
one which denotes a well-described method of proof, and it carries no 
emotional charge.  Logically bankrupt describes the outcome of the 
proof.  You may take issue with the rigor of my logic in the 
argument, but there is no disrespect for the opinions of others in 
the terms.

> > I personally have no problem with Vicki's or anyones right to 
write
> > these stories.  Even as an adult, I do object to having my nose
> > rubbed in them.  
> 
> <snip>
> 
> > A slash mb or slash section in FA or some other site would allow
> > readers to know precisely what they are getting into--so to speak-
-
> > and any complaints thereafter would have little validity.
> 
> Well, that's certainly true. However, the vast majority of slash 
stories are
> labelled as such in order to prevent theme-related flames from 
homophobes.


> In addition, most slash writers will increase the rating of their 
fics by at
> least one point in order to be on the safe side. Furthermore, most 
Authors'
> Notes/Summaries proclaim clearly all warnings, pairings, themes and 
age
> warnings.
> 
> Frankly, I'd much rather see
> 
> In my experience, it's *very* difficult to stumble onto slash fics 
without
> knowing what's contained therein. Mine, for example, are hosted and 
linked
> to from www.queerasjohn.com and http://queerasjohn.livejournal.com -
- domain
> names which portray what's behind the metaphorical curtain. Even on 
FA, my
> fics have slash warnings and mentions of the pairings either before 
clicking
> on the story or in the summary and author's note at the top of the 
page.
> 

I have less problem with stumbling upon fanfics such as you describe--
 I do think the stories are well-labeled-- than situations like the 
one occuring awhile ago on the main mb, where it was decreed that 
slash speculation-- at length-- was a permissible extension of 
canon.  It was then that posters were confronted with images that 
distorted their perceptions of JKR's wizarding world, and it was 
there that another poster coined that "tube of goo" phrase to 
describe how these images stuck (pun intended) to one's vision of the 
books.  Moving the discussion to OT cures a lot of this, and I hope 
that it will become more possible to hold and argue different 
opinions without both sides feeling attacked.

> As for the "nose-rubbing", I thought we were avoiding ad hominem 
attacks and
> loaded words.
> 

We are most definitely avoiding ad hominem attacks.  I certainly am, 
and I hope that you are as well, despite my hearing some mental alarm 
bells at some of your language.  I will write it off to an excess of 
sensitivity on my part.  As for loaded words, I would hope that we 
would wnat to use words loaded with meaning and not empty, vapid 
ones.  If you mean word that code for a lot of negatives to the 
reader that are used perhaps too loosely, such as homophobe, a quite 
agree and we should all strive to use powerful words that advance an 
argument without hostility.  There is and has been too much of this 
around.

> > In response to this, I can only say that there are degrees of
> > plausibility in speculation, and Diane, myself-- and more others 
that
> > you might want to admit-- feel similarly. It is the utter closed-
> > mindedness that we encounter when we broach this issue that
> > discourages free and open discussion about it.
> 
> As a slasher, and one of the very few male slashers, I have to say 
that I
> share your opinion. It's too often that we find someone espousing 
the cause
> of free speech while at the same time insisting that simply because 
of their
> sexual-orientation related material, fics be forcibly separated 
somehow from
> other types of fic, simply because of who the relationship is 
between. 

I do not advocate a "slash ghetto".  I do want to know enough about a 
story to make an intelligent choice whether to invest my time in it.


> Where to draw the line? And *why* draw the line?

Because of that respect we all have for everybody's likes and 
dislikes.  Remember? :)

> 
> > It is the "in your face" aspects of each side of this issue that 
is
> > wrong.
> 
> I couldn't agree more.
> 
> --John
> 

Let's shake on it, pal!
Haggridd
> ______________________________________
> 
> Queer as John || john at q...
> 
> AIM, YM & LJ @ QueerAsJohn || www.queerasjohn.com
> 
> "There's nowt as queer as folk."  --English proverb
> ______________________________________





From gwendolyngrace at yahoo.com  Wed Jan  8 18:55:21 2003
From: gwendolyngrace at yahoo.com (gwendolyngrace <gwendolyngrace@yahoo.com>)
Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 18:55:21 -0000
Subject: slash fiction - responses (FF herein, but nothing too bad) - LONG
In-Reply-To: <ave4vo+cko9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <avhs6r+fq6r@eGroups.com>

Hi, all.

Yes, I'm taking a short break from all that Nimbus planning to chime 
in, late as usual, on this issue.


--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Diana <dianasdolls at y...>" 
<dianasdolls at y...> wrote:

> I was referring specifically to the Lucius/Draco incestuous pairing 
> Cassie mentioned at the very beginning of post.  Even if that 
fanfic 
> piece was written by the greatest writer of all time, I would not 
> find an incestuous relationship between a father and son, even 
> between two characters I dislike [almost love to hate], in the 
> slightest bit appealing.  

I believe someone else may already have said this, or perhaps several 
someones, but let's get a couple things clear:

1. Slash does not necessarily equal porn.
2. Slash does not necessarily equal stories featuring sexual 
aberration, acts of deviance, or non-consensual sex.
3. Slash consists, in the common definition, of fiction in which the 
primary character(s) engage in some form of romance that is 
homoerotic. This means that the characters are discovering their 
sexuality, or feeling warm and fuzzy for someone of the same gender, 
or angsting over how they'll never get together, or what have you. 

Slash is under no obligation to contain explicit acts or descriptions 
of sex. That is an authorial decision, and I find that it is largely 
based on what type of story the author tries to tell.

As for those who have attempted to find examples of slash and only 
found the more lurid stuff, or even the more peurile examples, well, 
remember that famous rule:

90% of everything is crap.


So, if a fic concerns incest, for example, it may be that the author 
*wants* to disturb. Or to explore the darker side of life. Not all 
fanfiction has to be light and fluffy, and not all fanfiction has to 
leave its readers feeling comfortable.

We should occasionally read things that challenge. No one is 
obligated to agree with everything they read, nor is anyone under 
orders to read only things they agree with.

As a non-HP example, I wrote a slash fic a few years back (before I 
was familiar with the term "slash") that was set in the Star Wars 
universe. As some of you may know, Lucas is clear in the series that 
the Empire employs few to no women, on huge starships with crews of 
over 100,000, that take tours of duty several years long. We think 
our Navy has a problem with submarines? Try a star destroyer. It was 
thinking about that that led me to imagine a black market on "pretty 
boys" in the fleet. Icky, yes, but icky for a reason. I don't believe 
that a black market sex trade, or entrenched systems that allow 
sexual harrassment in the workplace, are desireable, but that doesn't 
mean I won't write about them. I also don't want a ten year old to 
read about it--but if my fic challenges that ten year old and makes 
them think, then I won't feel sorry they found it.

Over on Fiction Alley, I moderate the slash boards. I'm here to tell 
you that even slashers do not agree on why they write, or what they 
like to read. There are some who will only read fics where the most 
that happens is two characters hold hands. Some are purely interested 
in their own titillation. For some, slash is a guilty pleasure, just 
like Harlequin Romance but with an all-male cast.


As far as the characters in HP, well, that's as much a part of the 
reader's interpretation of the characters as anything else. 
Personally, I couldn't care less about the sexual development of the 
Trio, nor am I much interested in who will be snogging whom in a 
year. 

I'd like to recommend a few fics that several people have told us 
were their first introduction to slash, and stand out for them as 
examples of how it can be done tastefully and realistically.

The first is called, "In this World of Strangers," and is a triptych 
of short stories about Percy Weasley. It's by A'jes' Blue and can be 
found on Astronomy Tower. In the first installment, "Catharsis," 
A'jes' Blue merely set out to tell a story about why Percy might be 
so uptight. She sought a literary representation of unsticking Percy 
and shaking up his very repressed (not sexually repressed, exactly, 
but in every way) personality and getting him to live a little. But, 
in order to do that, she had to explore possible reasons Percy 
screwed himself up so tightly in the first place, and also cleanse 
him of his demons. So "Catharsis" explores an inner Percy few people 
seem to have seen.

The second part, "Fallout," is about the healing process. After 
purging, what comes next? For A'jes' Blue, the answer was to get 
Percy away from it all. On holiday with Charlie in Romania, Percy 
loses track of his old self while tending dragons. It's only toward 
the end of "Fallout" that Oliver Wood turns up unexpectedly with his 
Quidditch team for training nearby, and Percy turns to someone his 
own age--not a friend, yet, but someone who happened to be in the 
right place at the right time.

The third part, "Unsuspecting Hearts," is where the relationship 
between Oliver and Percy deepens. Much of the fic concerns Percy's 
own changing comfort level and self-reinvention. As he learns more 
about himself, he starts to figure out what he wants in life. There's 
still a Percy-ness to him that will never go away (like his choice to 
diligently research sex before trying it), but it's now overlayed 
with a new sense of self-awareness and all those romantic feelings 
virtually anyone has when embarking into the unknown of love.

After she finished "In this World of Strangers," A'jes' Blue was 
asked, cajoled, begged, and otherwise assaulted by requests to write 
a follow-up story, because many saw in Ron's reaction the possibility 
of self-doubt, and possible discovery for himself. Despite her best 
efforts, she started to think about a Harry/Ron scenario. Against my 
advice (it went something like, "No! Don't do it! Don't succumb to 
the maddening crowds! The trio probably won't have any lasting 
relationships in any combination of the three of them! For the love 
of Pete, don't do it!"), she did it.

"Take the Chance" is what she wrote. I think it bears saying that I 
think these stories are such fine examples of realistic slash because 
A'jes' Blue remains very sensitive to the idea that for most people, 
discovering that one's orientation differs from societal norm is a 
scary and delicate thing. None of her characters leap into action 
upon making this discovery. They hold back, they hesitate to allow 
themselves to get hurt. That doubt and fear is something I think 
anyone who's ever loved can identify with.

There's a lovely passage in "Take the Chance" where Ron is trying to 
think what adult person he can talk to to ask for advice. He will not 
talk to his father, refuses to acknowledge Percy (because he really 
doesn't want to think about his brother having sex, thanks), and 
feels too far removed from Bill or Charlie to talk to them. He lights 
on Sirius, and writes him a letter (A'jes' and I are firm S/R 
supporters). 

In her story, Ron wrote after an introduction to his topic: 
1. How do you know when you are in love (I guess this is the big 
one)? 

2. When you think you're in love what do you do then? 

3. What does it feel like? 

4. Does it hurt (Okay
 Not what I really mean. Do you know what I 
mean?)? 

Please answer at your earliest convenience. Thank you. 

Ron Weasley 

PS- please don't tell anyone I wrote this to you.


And Sirius answered:

When you think you may be in love the first thing you must do is talk 
to the person you have those feelings for. I can't stress this 
enough. Talk. I know it goes against anything you've seen of men and 
relationships, but believe me, communication is the key to happiness. 
If you are not sure it's love
 This is more difficult. Does the 
thought of the person make you feel warm inside? Do you trust them 
enough to let them know how you feel? If the answer is 'no,' perhaps 
it is only physical attraction you're caught up in and not love. If 
the answer is 'yes'- you, my friend, are in love! Don't wait around 
for the "right time"- Trust me, there is no right or wrong time. Talk 
now! 

As to what it feels like
 Well, I figure that is pretty much an 
individual response. For me, when I am with my lover I feel like 
everything is right. Finally everything makes sense. He completes me. 
We have a trust, a bond. 

As to whether or not it hurts. Yes. And no. Ron, everything hurts us. 
Sometimes the pain is good pain, it shows us we are alive and able to 
feel. Other pain is not good- and I trust you can figure out the 
difference. Yes, love hurts. And yes it is worth every bit of pain 
that it causes. Look at me. We spent twelve years apart because of my 
idiocy, and yet, we are stronger now than we have ever been. If 
anything he loves me more- which has been a very great gift. I have 
so many regrets, so much I am not proud of, and yet he loves me more. 
We are stronger together than apart. 

Love is a risk, Ron. But make that wager. Take that gamble, because 
the payoff is more joy then you have ever wished for. 

In closing, let me just say that none of us knows how long we have to 
love. Take your chances where you find them. The Dark Arts are 
rising, and we need to grab for whatever happiness we can find. Trust 
me on this. You should never have to live with the regret of 
withholding your love because of fear. We never know when it is too 
late. 

I certainly hope this helps a little with your difficulty. I've never 
given advice on love before. I don't know if anything I've said is 
worth the parchment it's written on. Good luck! 
---End Quote


Now, aside from being I think a spiff bit of writing, I think that 
anyone who disagrees with Sirius--be their lovers male, female, or 
goats--is sniffing something.

It was this sentiment of Sirius's in "Take the Chance" that led 
A'jes' Blue and myself to collaborate on "Between the Lines," which 
is, we hope, a frank and unflinching look at how Sirius is coping 
with his recovery from Azkaban, and how a relationship between him 
and Remus might realistically have developed. 

Neither of us believes either Remus or Sirius was openly gay at 
Hogwarts, for example. For a variety of reasons, few people are lucky 
enough to be able to recognize their sexual orientation early, accept 
it, be accepted by their families and friends, and proceed through 
life with no doubts about what attracts them to a mate. Especially in 
the parents' generation, i.e., the 60's and 70's, I think it's highly 
unlikely that even if one of them (or both of them) "figured it out" 
relatively young, they would have revealed that fact to the world. 
Frankly, life is full of people who believed themselves to be 
heterosexual for a long time before realizing or coming to grips with 
their natures. I personally know at least a dozen men who were 
married, had children, and were pushing 40 years old before they 
admitted that their preference was for other men. That doesn't mean 
they didn't love their ex-wives, or even that they weren't really 
attracted to women as well--it means they realized they were 
conforming to a social expectation that made them very unhappy.

We chose Sirius and Remus partially because we find them a little 
more intriguing than the kids. We also chose them because to us, the 
potential for *good storytelling* was higher. We don't ever shove the 
relationship in "people's" faces. However, the relationship is front 
and center in the story, among a lot of other things. And also, in 
our timeline, they're over 35, so I sincerely hope no one objects 
that they're not old enough to make their own choices.

Now, we rated the story R. Not because we felt that the relationship 
needed to be shielded, and not because we thought that there was a 
lot of inappropriate sexual situations for younger people. In fact, 
there's a lot of "fade to black" and a lot of euphemism in the story--
the literary equivalent of creative positioning in films with implied 
nudity. But when there's a need to go into the bedroom, we don't shy 
away from it, either. Almost all of the "adult" situations in BtL 
actually don't involve sex--they involve Sirius's nightmares and 
other scary stuff. A few of them involve sex, but it's certainly 
not "bow chicka bow bow" material. 

My point is, there is slash that is sensitive to something more 
important than 'Women think two guys are hot.' There is slash that is 
extremely sensitive to the characters and how they would react to 
situations if they had the predilection. There is slash that truly is 
about realism in fiction and not about "How do I get them in bed?" 
There is slash that is in the 10% of "not crap." [There is also slash 
that *is* intended for titillation, and guess what? A very small 
portion of it is really good, and the rest of it sucketh. And I'm all 
in favour of keeping that stuff where kids can't casually find it, 
mostly because I don't want to hear them squealing "eew" -- plus the 
fact that they just don't get it.]

For one thing, if you're reading fanfic at all, you should accept 
that the author is changing *something* to make the fic possible. 
Fanfic is both extrapolation and interpolation based on what we 
already know. Another's interpretation, therefore, must be somewhat 
different than the original--and what is the point of fanfiction if 
not to use canon as a springboard for something?

Even if the something is, "Ginny likes Harry, so I'm going to find a 
way to put them together."

Even if the something is, "I wonder where Remus was all those 12 
years between Sirius's arrest and teaching at Hogwarts? Maybe 
Romania?"

Even if the something is, "Here's what I think is going to happen in 
Order of the Phoenix."

Even if the something is, "Ya know, call me crazy, but has anyone 
ever thought Draco might be gay?"

It is whatever it is. If you didn't want to change anything--if you 
didn't want to read something new or different or expose yourself to 
a new version of facts--then why read any of it at all? 

There is something for everyone out there--or nothing, if you prefer. 
And the world of fanfiction is just like life, where there are people 
who appear quite respectable who engage in hardcore bondage and 
fetish clubs on the weekends, but there are also people who make 
their living running those clubs who are wonderful, honest, moral, 
ethical people. 

This is a really long post, so I'll say it again:

Slash does not equal porn.
Slash does not equal deviant sexual practices
90% of everything is crap.

Find the 10%; then let's talk.

Gwen




From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Wed Jan  8 20:32:56 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve <bboy_mn@yahoo.com>)
Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 20:32:56 -0000
Subject: 90% of everything is crap.
In-Reply-To: <avhs6r+fq6r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <avi1to+tses@eGroups.com>

> 90% of everything is crap.
> 
> Find the 10%; then let's talk.
> 
> Gwen

bboy_mn:

Well Gwen, let's assume that 90% of the crap isn't pure crap but
varying degrees of crap.

The first thing we have to deal with is that very few of these authors
really consider themselves writers. That is, despite having written a
lot of XXX-Slash as well as some PG-13-Slash, as well as some fun PG
stories, I don't consider myself a writer. (In another post I pointed
out that I publish, on the internet, stories exceeding 500,000 words
this year.) I know, I will never be a professional writer. I know I
will never truly be 'published'. But I'm having soooo much fun.

If you are a writer, then you know what an amazing experience it is.
You're sitting around the house or driving in your car, and an idea
comes to you. Sometimes no more than a brief scene that represents the
core of an idea. You rush to your computer and you start to type, and
it is like a dam breaks. A torrent of words come spilling out,
sometime for hours and sometimes for days on end as the story takes
shape. Where it comes from, how it all manages to fall together, what
it all means is anyone's guess, but it comes and it keeps coming. Then
late one night, you type 'Fade to Black', and sit back an see this
marvelous thing that you created. Something that sprang forth from
within you from a place that you didn't even know you had. 

You run the spell check. (You damn well better run the spell check it
you expect anyone to read this.) Then you let it sit for a few days
and come back and read it with fresh eyes, and clean it up a bit. If
you are lucky, you've found a Beta-Reader to help you clean it up and
refine it. Then comes the big test, you publish it. You leave a note
and a link at your favorite slash discussion group, then you wait and
wonder. Did I really accomplish something, did I really create
something, or did I just waste a lot of time? Is this really story or
just a pointless collection of words? It's hard to judge for yourself.
It's hard to evaluate yourself when you are so close to something.

Then you get an email; someone has left a comment on your story. You
heart quickens and you feel jittery as you naviagate to the comments
page, and you see things like this-


BROTHERS: "I enjoyed this fic immensely. I liked very much your
personification of Percy and Molly. And as always Harry and Ron were
just *perfect*."

BROTHERS: "Hi! I gotta say that ever since I discovered this story I
was stuck with it and every time someone asks me if I know a good
Harry/Ron story I always recommend this one. It ROCKS!!!"

BROTHERS: "Now *this* I liked. " [From someone who hated all my other
stories.]

THE CHESS CLUB: "This story was absolutely great! ^_^ It was nice that
Ron got the spotlight for once - and found out that he wasn't sure if
he liked it too much after all."

THE CHESS CLUB: "I am in love with this!"

RESPECT: "hehehehe"

RESPECT: "I love it!! It's hilarious!!"

RESPECT: "I've always wanted someone to write a story like this..."



YES! YES! YES! I really did it. I really wrote a story; a real story.
Not just an endless collection of pointless words. I made someone
laugh. I made someone cry. I made some one care. That's what this is
all about. It's not about these characters being represented with
absolute adherence to their standard character. 

These stories above are very mild, slightly slashy but really anyone
could read them without any trouble. I think most of them are PG,
PG-13, NC-13, and one is R for one very short very small slash reference.

I wrote another story 'The Cavern' that is just totally trashy (work
in progress) as naughty as naughty can be, but it's funny. It's
rediculous. And that was the point of it all, to write a rediculous,
funny, trashy story about these characters. Although, one reviewer
said it didn't stimulate him intellectually. I had to wonder why he
read through 8 chapters of rediculous, funny trash hoping for
intellectual stimulation.

90% of everything is crap.

Yes, that's right. None of these writers are professionals. Some of
them aren't even out of school yet. My writing has strange and
incorrect grammer, because I grew up as white trash; Norwegian white
trash. I have ingrained, improper speech patterns. I tend to be
repetative; I say things over and over again, frequently reusing
certain phrases. I'm highly repetative and repeat myself a lot ;). 

These are bad habits that I struggle to break, and I'm getting better
at it. But in the end, I'm not a professional writer, I'm just a guy
having fun. And in my universe, Harry and Ron love each other with a
deep, intimate, unrelenting, undying love, a joy of love and life fun,
and hell, hardship, pain, fear, misery, separation, and heartache and
heartbreak will never tear them apart. Regardless of what Harry and
Ron do in your universe, we should all be so lucky to find love in our
lifetime as good and true and deep as the love Ron and Harry share for
each other in my universe.

Just a few thoughts on a dangerously off topic topic.

bboy_mn







From melclaros at yahoo.com  Wed Jan  8 21:18:51 2003
From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros <melclaros@yahoo.com>)
Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 21:18:51 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter Class
In-Reply-To: <avfskc+a5fp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <avi4jr+fmfk@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Liz <cureluv88 at h...>" 
<cureluv88 at h...> wrote:
> write a note on here.  Does anyone know of anything good written on 
> Snape's treatment of Harry, something for or against R/H shipping, 
or 
> something on prejudice??  Or any other good ideas?  I'm looking for 
> inspiration.  So you can write back here or email me at 
> rbf4eva at h...
\

Everything you need should be here:
http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/faq/
Have fun, what a great class!

Melpomene




From linkajarjarbinks at yahoo.com  Wed Jan  8 21:21:56 2003
From: linkajarjarbinks at yahoo.com (Matilda Trelawney)
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 13:21:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: More on Strange SHIPS
In-Reply-To: <avhgo9+m4um@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20030108212156.84063.qmail@web12807.mail.yahoo.com>


 Some of those parings they came up with were sick, but funny! Some, were saying that everday parings were gross! Such as, Harry/Hermione for example. Alot of them were saying that Dumbeldore shouldn't be in romances because he's too old! That's totally unfair! So, after you get wrinkles, and are over the age of 90, you can't have a love life anymore? Geez, if my greatgrandmother were still alive, she'd have a few things to say to them. Old people can have a 'fun' too, and I'm sure when they get old and become grandparents, they'll agree with me.
 But some were there for a good reason. Like, Harry/Hedwig. I think it is possible that Hedwig is really a human, but still it's gross. Whoever heard of two people falling in love, because one of them used to be the other's pet? 
 Speaking of Dumbeldore, I actually saw a 'serious' and strange romance fic with him and the blue Ford Anglia that Harry and Ron drove to school in. It was rather strange, but thankfully not an NC-17.
 "heiditandy <heidit at netbox.com>" <heidit at netbox.com> wrote:--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "linda_mccabe 
<lmccabe at s...>" <lmccabe at s...> wrote:
> Oh ho ho,
> This is a topic that interests me.  I stumbled across a thread on 
> Fiction Alley Park a few months ago that had me howling with 
> laughter.  It's called Biggest Squicks IV: Ships that make you 
> seasick.  Here's the link:
> 
> 
http://www.fictionalley.org//fictionalleypark/forums/showthread.php?
> s=&threadid=15849

> There's also a consistent theme that any bestiality or 
> Animagus/animal pairing is just plain wrong.  People had come 
across 
> Hermione/Crookshanks and Harry/Hedwig.  Ugh!

Harry/Hedwig is actually a running joke in the fandom - well, joke 
to everyone but Simon Branford that is, as his pet theory is that 
Hedwig is an animagus or trapped (like some birds in old Grimm 
fairytales) in the body of a bird against her will. And the ideal 
Harry/Hedwig fic wouldn't include any relations while Hedwig is in 
bird form, but after she's transformed/been freed from her 
imprisoning spell, their love will blossom into a OTP (one true 
pairing) of wonder and magnificence. 

Or something like that. I think Simon came up with the theory in the 
first round of ship wars, to say that he was an H/H shipper, but not 
Harry/Hermione.

heidi, maintaining the fandom history books since 2000


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From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Thu Jan  9 00:06:41 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve <bboy_mn@yahoo.com>)
Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 00:06:41 -0000
Subject: Show Me The Money! Rupert's House.
In-Reply-To: <010201c2b6b4$784288b0$9ea1cdd1@RVotaw>
Message-ID: <avieeh+r4e7@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Richelle Votaw" <rvotaw at i...>
wrote:
> 
> bboy_mn:
> 
> > However, much like Daniel Radcliffe's parents, Rupert parents have
> > quit their jobs to become Rupert's fulltime highly paid 
> >chaperones.
> >
> > At least, Daniel's mother continues to work at her old job, and 
> > is therefore, bringing in substantial income to the family. 

>Richelle replied:
> 
> One parent quitting work, I can see.  These kids definitely need 
> a full time chaperone.  But two?  Daniel's mother working provides 
> a sense of normalcy even if the money isn't needed.  
-end this part-

bboy_mn:

It occurred to me that maybe it is the studio and not Rupert (or Dan)
himself that is paying for the chaperones. Although, I don't know it
for a fact, the possibility does ease my mind a bit. At least they are
not consuming all of Rupert's money. That money should be for his
future, not thier present. The SUN article said Rupter bought the
house as a gift for his parents. That may have been journalistic
license. The turn of a phrase for the sake of a good story. 

None the less, I stand by what I said, and re-enforce what Richelle
added, when a family takes it's normal life apart and reconstructs it
around the assumed income of a child star, you have taken the first
step on the road to DOOM. 

A child is suppose to be a dependant. He depends on his parent for a
sense of balance and proportion, a sense of stability and, as Richelle
pointed out, a sense of normalcy. Home is a sanctuary for someone like
this. It should be the one place they can come and be nothing but a
kid. Once the whole families existance, hinges around the efforts of
the child, the child becomes the adult and the parents become the
dependants. Totally messes up the family dynamic.
-bboy_mn - end this part-


bboy_mn originally said:
> > ...edited... The business of acting and being famous is very 
> ? fickle. 
-end this part-

>Richelle continues:
> 
> Now Rupert has said several times that he wants to act.  Forever,
basically.  ...edited...
> 
> Anyway, what I'm trying to say here is at this early time in their
careers I could more easily visualize Daniel with a future in acting
(in other things) than Rupert.  Rupert is adorable.  But he's being
stereotyped, not just as Ron Weasley, but as a comic character.  Of
course, with any luck that'll change in PoA.
> 
> ...edited...
> 
> Richelle

bboy_mn adds:
I think Dan is a fine actor; a natural, and because he is obviously
very intelligent as well as talented, he has a great potential
whatever direction he chooses. 

But I think Rupert has great potential as an actor. He is very
expressive both with his language and body as well as his face. And, I
don't think Rupert is limited to a bunch of goofy faces. I think his
ability to express has great range and subtility. True he is funny and
that may tend to stick him in comedy roles but I think he has the
potential for drama too. 

I could really see a long and sucessfull career for him. But again,
fame is fickle. A year from now, it's possible that people will say,
'Rupert who? Grint? Who's he?' He wouldn't be the first child star to
very quickly vanish from peoples minds. That would be a real shame.

Anyway, I wish him fair fortune and a long happy life, but I still see
the change in his family situation as a very bad sign. It would be a
shame if the actions of other people, and their bad judgement turned
his dream sour.

Just a few thoughts.

bboy_mn








From foxmoth at qnet.com  Thu Jan  9 00:28:08 2003
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999 <foxmoth@qnet.com>)
Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 00:28:08 -0000
Subject: Show Me The Money! Rupert's House.
In-Reply-To: <avfrs9+k9tn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <avifmo+cpnp@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Steve 
<bboy_mn at y...>" <bboy_mn at y...> wrote:

> Rupert's money should be going into a protected financial 
trust, where his money is protected, and invested wisely and 
concervatively, sothat his future life and education are secured by 
this money. I<<

Considering what the stock market is doing, putting the money in 
real estate doesn't sound like a bad idea to me. There's also the 
question of security. Moving to an island doesn't sound like a 
bad idea either.

The house could well be held  in trust for Rupert. In my state, 
though a child can own real estate outright,  it's not 
recommended, since the child can't legally sell it. 

Putting money into a protective trust sounds wonderful, but is no 
guarantee that the funds will be invested profitably. Professional 
money managers  on the whole don't do any better than index 
funds, and they are more expensive.


Pippin





From Ali at zymurgy.org  Thu Jan  9 11:20:46 2003
From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali <Ali@zymurgy.org>)
Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 11:20:46 -0000
Subject: Show Me The Money! Rupert's House.
In-Reply-To: <avfrs9+k9tn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <avjlue+3p30@eGroups.com>

Steve Bboy said:-

<<Found this link a The Leaky Cauldron <www.the-leaky-cauldron.org>

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2003001703,00.html

>From the UK SUN tabloid newspaper (given that it's a tabloid, you can
decide how much stock you want to put in it as true.)>>

me:

I would personally take anything said by the Sun with a huge pinch of 
salt. The paper might give the flavour of a story, but their ability 
to embellish is, well, excellent.

Steve again:
<<However, much like Daniel Radcliffe's parents, Rupert parents have
quit their jobs to become Rupert's fulltime highly paid chaperones.

>From Article in SUN:
The family pal added: "His dad sold his motor supplies business
because he and Jo have devoted themselves to Rupert's career."

<snip>

At least, Daniel's mother continues to work at her old job, and is
therefore, bringing in substantial income to the family. 

<snip>

Mr. Grint has sold his automobile memorabilia business, and given the
fact that they lived in a US$300,000 home, it must have been a good
business, and probably brought in a substantial sum of money. So, it's
not like they are broke without Rupert's money, but at the same time,
Rupert's money should be going into a protected financial trust, where
his money is protected, and invested wisely and concervatively, so
that his future life and education are secured by this money. I see
this as a very negative turn of events>>

I suppose there are a few points here. The value of the Grint's house 
does not indicate that the business must have been going well. House 
prices in the South of England have gone through the roof in recent 
years. Hertfordshire is an expensive place to live, and the Grint's 
former home nothing more than "average" (not that there's nothing 
wrong with that). The car industry is having problems at the moment 
as second hand cars have dropped in value ? this would almost 
certainly have had a detrimental effect on the Grint family business, 
so selling the business might have been a foresighted thing to do.

In terms of the issue of chaperoning, the Grints are almost between 
the devil and the deep blue sea. With 5 children, it is quite 
possible that Mrs Grint did not work, and certainly couldn't then 
devote all her time to just one child. Yet, if they did not chaperon 
Rupert they might not have felt that they were neglecting his needs. 
It could be that the decision to sell the business was a good one AND 
it then allowed a parent to be paid to chaperon Rupert on a full time 
basis without neglecting the other kids. I do agree that all their 
eggs are now in one basket, but who can tell what the future will 
bring.

I would feel very sorry for Rupert's siblings, and have heard that 
Emma Watson's brother now hates Harry Potter because of the effect on 
him. Daniel Radcliffe is perhaps lucky that his family can act 
relatively "normally", but then in a way, he's going to need that 
normalcy so much more (IMHO)

With regard to the property issue, minors cannot own property into 
England & Wales. Whilst property might be a good investment at the 
moment, it would have to be held in trust for Rupert. I'm sure that 
trust arrangements must have been sorted out for the kids when they 
were cast, mustn't they?

Going off at a tangent, a previous thread regarding Dan Radcliffe's 
income from the films. I remember different figures from those 
quoted.  I seem to recall that he was initially offered a low sum for 
PS/SS but Equity stepped in and he was then offered ?1 million, then 
for CoS ?2m. I'm sorry, I can't recall where these figures come from, 
but they do at least seem a little fairer. (So I hope that they're 
right).

Ali







From lupinesque at yahoo.com  Thu Jan  9 11:44:25 2003
From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z <lupinesque@yahoo.com>)
Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 11:44:25 -0000
Subject: ISO ST:TNG support group
Message-ID: <avjnap+ea8j@eGroups.com>

Hey, if you're a Next Generation fan and saw Nemesis, will you write 
me offlist?  I need to talk!

Amy Z lupinesque @ yahoo. com




From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Thu Jan  9 11:58:46 2003
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David <dfrankiswork@netscape.net>)
Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 11:58:46 -0000
Subject: OOP: No news is no news
Message-ID: <avjo5m+ii7i@eGroups.com>

Bloomsbury have just published their Pre-Close Period Trading Update 
(ie a brief news summary at the end of their financial year).

www.bloomsbury-ir.co.uk/html/media/press%20releases/080103.html

It artfully mentions a specific expectation for some non-Harry 
Potter titles in 2003, then innocently goes on to mention sales on 
the back of the COS movie.  A beautifully deafening silence.

I wonder if Bloomsbury should rename themselves Bloomsbury 'we're 
not just Harry Potter, honest guv, we do lots of stuff, I'm sure 
I've got one here somewhere' Publishing.

David




From rvotaw at i-55.com  Thu Jan  9 17:49:58 2003
From: rvotaw at i-55.com (rvotaw at i-55.com)
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 11:49:58 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Maybe July??? (was OOP: No news is no news
Message-ID: <16705837.1042134598073.JavaMail.root@webmail.i-55.com>


David writes:

> It artfully mentions a specific expectation for some non-Harry <BR>
> Potter titles in 2003, then innocently goes on to mention sales on <BR>
> the back of the COS movie. A beautifully deafening silence.<BR>

The Leaky Cauldron has this link posted:

http://quote.bloomberg.com/fgcgi.cgi?mnu=news&ptitle=Technology%
20UK&tp=ad_uknews&T=news_storypage99.ht&ad=uktechnology&s=APh2njBZ2Qmxvb21z

Where Bloomsbury says they would like to publish OoP in July.  July?  Are they 
kidding?  How can we possibly wait that long?  They say they have to talk to 
their American publisher (Scholastic) before a release date is set, and that 
they expect to have the manuscript soon.  Which sounds to me like it could be 
even later.  Something like that.  I must say, I'm not surprised they aren't 
making more of an effort to get it out earlier.  The DVD/video of CoS should be 
out in what, May?  I doubt WB wants people standing on lines for OoP instead of 
buying the movie.  Naturally, I wouldn't be the least bit interested in 
watching CoS if I could be reading OoP!

Richelle

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk  Thu Jan  9 18:05:29 2003
From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte)
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 18:05:29 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Maybe July??? (was OOP: No news is no news
References: <16705837.1042134598073.JavaMail.root@webmail.i-55.com>
Message-ID: <3E1DB9E9.000001.90629@monica>


I posted somewhere else about this and can't remember if I mentioned it here
 if I didn't and there's any interest I'll type the item up, it's only a
couple of paragraphs. But this month's starburst magazine in the UK is
reporting that JKR has finished and that OoP is scheduled for publication in
the first 6 months of 2003

K



From skelkins at attbi.com  Thu Jan  9 23:38:33 2003
From: skelkins at attbi.com (ssk7882 <skelkins@attbi.com>)
Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 23:38:33 -0000
Subject: Authorial Responsibilities (WAS: Nimbus question)
In-Reply-To: <avd47j+51gj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <avl15p+315s@eGroups.com>

Carole (a belated happy birthday, Carole!) proposed a very 
interesting question as a possible Nimbus panel topic.  David 
attempted to summarize/phrase it as:

> How about: Do authors have a responsibility to their readers, or 
> only their art? Do fanfic authors have a responsibility to the 
> integrity of the world that they are borrowing? Explain.

I think these are great questions for a panel discussion!  For
that matter, I think they are great questions for an OTC 
discussion. ;-)

I believe that authors, just like everyone else, have a primary 
responsibility to their own sense of what is *right,* and that 
this applies equally to their aesthetic decisions as it does to 
all of the other decisions that they make in life.

Does the author have a "responsibility" to the reader?  Well, 
precisely who *is* "the reader" in this sentence?  Is "the 
reader" a member of the work's intended or anticipated audience?  
Is "the reader" a member of the author's previously-established 
fan base?  Does "the reader" refer to any random person who might
happen upon the work and read it?  Or is "the reader" meant as a 
representative of the *entire* set of potential readers: in other 
words, is "the reader" Everyman?

I absolutely do not believe that authors have a responsibility 
to write for the broadest possible audience.  When people make 
the conscious attempt to use this strategem, we have a rather 
unpleasant name for that.  We call it "pandering," and it actually
hardly ever works.  Most popular authors truly aren't pandering; 
for the most part, they come by their popularity honestly.  I 
don't think that we would have very much at all in the way of 
enjoyable fiction if authors regularly operated under the assumption 
that their goal should be to strive to reach the widest of all 
conceivable audiences.

As for the author's responsibility to *her* readers -- that 
is, to the people who have already been established as her 
audience -- again, I don't believe that it exists.  I don't
see any reason why authors should feel the need to chain
themselves to a single style or approach or subject matter 
for their entire lives merely because many people happen
to enjoy it.  Surely authors ought to feel free to experiment 
with as many different styles and approaches as they wish, even 
if all of them may not prove popular with the same (or any!)
audiences?

When it comes right down to it, I actually think it rather 
cheeky for readers to try to dictate the content or direction 
of an author's work -- particularly when the work in question 
is an amateur work of fiction for which the author is not even 
getting *paid.*

To be brutally crass here, if you are *commissioning* a work 
of writing, then I believe you can make a case for your "right" 
to dictate its content or style.  Publishers do get to dictate.  
That is because they are the ones holding the purse strings.  
Professional writers understand this, and people who write for 
a living learn how to go about writing to spec.  When they do this, 
though, they generally do expect to get *paid.*  Few people relish 
the idea of writing to someone else's specifications unless there's
going to be a check in the mail.

To my mind, readers who are receiving the works that they consume 
for *free* really don't have much case for claiming that they
ought to get to dictate the content or style of those works.  What 
those readers can do to express their distaste for a writer's work 
is to vote with their feet: if you don't like it, don't read it.  
The consequence for adopting a style which alienates readers is a 
reduced audience.  The extent to which the author cares about this, 
however, is largely dependent on what the author hoped to achieve by 
writing the piece in the first place.  Not everyone is dominated by 
the desire for popularity, and since people don't make any money off 
of fanfiction anyway, one of the major incentives to cater to popular 
tastes is absent.  The amateur writer is liberated from the pressures 
of the marketplace -- which for many people is actually amateurism's 
greatest appeal.
 
Then there is the question of social responsibility, which I
believe may have been one of the things that Carole was trying 
to get at here:  

> But just because we have the right to write whatever pair that 
> challenges us, should we? 

Do authors have a responsibility to endeavor not to write works 
that promulgate values they themselves would not personally 
endorse? 

I do feel that ethical individuals probably ought at least try 
not to promulgate values in their writing that they do not 
themselves endorse.  However, there is a very big difference 
between what the author is actually "promulgating" and what 
any given reader might interpret the text to be promulgating.  

I do not, for example, believe that it makes much sense to ascribe 
the attitudes of fictional characters to their authors, or to assume 
that just because an action takes place in a story, therefore the 
author must be condoning it as practice, or to denounce a piece of 
humorous sickfic because of the possibility that some mentally 
deranged reader might actually take it seriously and consequently 
go out and commit horrific acts.  Honestly, the responsibility of 
the author only goes so far -- and it should always be kept in 
mind, I think, that aesthetic values are *also* values.  From
the point of view of someone who loves the art of fiction, a 
writer who sacrifices too many literary considerations on the 
altar of inoffensiveness *is* guilty of promulgating poor values. 

I also think that when it comes to fanfiction, the entire question 
of social responsibility is considerably less pressing than it
is for many other types of expression.  After all, fanfiction is 
hardly the mass media, is it?  It isn't anything like television, 
or billboards, or the music playing over the loudspeakers in the 
only supermarket in town.  It is not in any sense *inescapable.*  
It does not pervade our culture, and no one is exposed to it against 
their will.

As for David's second question:

> Do fanfic authors have a responsibility to the integrity of the 
> world that they are borrowing? Explain.

I don't believe that they do, unless they *themselves* believe
that retaining the canonical integrity of the world is a
necessary feature of the fic's intrinsic value.  Then I'd say
that they owe it to themselves to uphold their own aesthetic
values.  Do they owe it to the reader, though?  Or to JKR?

Not in my opinion, no.  

When it comes right down to it, as Gwen pointed out, a work
of fanfiction is *never* going to reflect an interpretation 
of the fictive world identical to that of the canonical 
author.  How could it?  Different authors are different 
people; different people think in different ways.  For me,
in fact, that's the very appeal of fanfiction.  When I read
fanfic, I really don't *want* it to be just like reading JKR.  
I want it to be something else.  Something different.

But of course, different people have very different preferences
here.  Some people do turn to fanfiction in the hopes of finding 
something as close to JKR's works as they can get.  That's fine.  
It's just not what I myself happen to be looking for in it. 

Carole expressed some concern for the feelings of the original
author:

> I know how I'd feel if someone else writes about my original 
> character. I'd be worried that they wouldn't get them right. 

I argue this point frequently with a RL friend who is extremely 
strident in his opposition to the entire idea of "creators' 
rights."  He feels that authors ought to have *no* rights over
the worlds or the characters that they have created.  

I just can't agree with that myself, and I always find myself 
wondering, whenever we have this argument (which is often), just 
to what extent our respective positions in the debate might be 
informed by the fact that I write fiction, while he does not.  

Personally, I think that the best place to draw the line is 
probably, yes, *money.*  Making a profit.  That seems to me 
an appropriate line.  It's a bit frustrating for the fans, 
because it means that a work that might otherwise find a market 
and prove quite popular -- a compilation of fanfic stories, for 
example -- cannot be legally published without the sanction of 
the original author.  It's also a bit frustrating for an original 
author who just plain hates the idea of her characters and settings 
being played with by others.  So both parties are inconvenienced: 
the fanfic authors financially and in terms of widespread publicity
(although the internet is changing that), and the author on the 
emotional level.  Both parties also, however, have options open to 
them to get around the inconvenience.  The fanfic author can "file 
off the serial numbers" and seek publication.  The canon author can 
simply avoid the fanfic and try hard to pretend that it doesn't 
exist.  ;-)  I think it's a reasonably fair solution to the dilemma.

But of course, that's a rather legalistic way of looking at
it, I suppose.  Here, Carole seems to be taking a more personal,
or emotional, approach: 

> How much more so would JKR be appalled by some of the writings? 
> How much more would she be delighted by some of our astute 
> detection of her characters more subtle definitions?

Well, authors vary a great deal on this issue.  Some published 
authors think that fanfic based on their works is the coolest thing 
since sliced bread.  Others throw hissy fits about it.  Many fall 
somewhere between those two extremes.  From her interview statements 
on the subject, I rather get the impression that JKR's a "fall 
between" sort of author. 

A number of years ago, I wrote a serialized, "just for fun" bit 
of fiction that proved popular enough that a few people started
writing spin-offs of it.  I suppose that it was a kind of "fanfic," 
although since my original material was not published, the issues 
were somewhat different.

I had a blast reading it, myself.  But yeah, it did sometimes bug me 
a little when people had my characters behaving OOC, especially when 
they only did so in *little* ways -- in other words, it bothered me 
a lot more somehow when people actually *were* getting them more or 
less "right."  I usually enjoyed reading the totally "non-canonical" 
fics a lot more than the ones written by people who seemed to be 
trying to write the characters and the world very much as they 
thought that I would.  

But really, who cares what I think?  At the time, I just kept my big
yap shut about it.  In fact, I scrupulously avoided ever giving my 
opinion on any of that fiction, because I felt that it would be a bit
unfair for me to do so.  I wanted people to feel free to write 
whatever they liked without stressing too much about my personal
opinion.

So I guess that's pretty much how I feel about the extent to which 
people should worry about what JKR might think about fanfic as well.  
I don't think that they should worry about it at all.  Callous?  Yes, 
perhaps, a little.  But there you go.


Carole:

> And how does some of the more bizarre and strange pairings make the 
> fandom look in the eyes of the rest of the public? If the more 
> bizarre pairings get the public eye, does that tarnish the whole
> adult fandom as decadent?

Oh, dear.  Well, I'm afraid that I think that adult fandoms of this 
sort are probably always doomed to be viewed as decadent -- or at the 
very least as weird and "geeky" -- in the eyes of the rest of the 
public, and honestly, I don't think that the precise nature of the 
fanfic that such fandoms produce is likely to have much effect on that
phenomenon.  It's hard for me to worry too much about it, though, as 
nearly everything about my life is considered strange and 
disreputable by the majority of the population anyway.  I'm so 
accustomed to that that I've stopped even noticing.

If it's any consolation, though, I'd say that the HP fandom still 
holds a significantly higher social rank than many others, largely by 
virtue of being based on a massively popular work of relatively 
mainstream fiction (yes, it's fantasy, but it's also classified as 
children's fantasy, which is socially acceptable in a way that adult 
fantasy is not), rather than on something more fringe-ish or trapped 
in one of the less reputable ghetto genres.  I think that these 
factors probably have more influence over the fandom's rep than the 
shipping practices do.



Elkins




From skelkins at attbi.com  Fri Jan 10 02:29:03 2003
From: skelkins at attbi.com (ssk7882 <skelkins@attbi.com>)
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 02:29:03 -0000
Subject: Couplethink Rant (WAS: Shipping the Trio and the Twins)
In-Reply-To: <av018b+2u9l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <avlb5f+a8u5@eGroups.com>

David, who can dish out categorization but not take it, wrote:

> That said, I have never been able to formulate any really 
> satisfactory hypotheses about positions that are apparently 
> correlated, e.g. 'young Hermione' and H/H. I suppose first we need 
> a massive multivariate poll.

I would love to see such a poll!

> There's also the tricky question of what you think is 'true' 
> or will happen versus what you want to be true - not that I've 
> come across anyone with beliefs that strongly contradict their 
> preferences (e.g. "I think canon is firmly R/H but I feel Harry 
> is the right person for Hermione").

Do you mean just when it comes to shipping, David?  Or to 
speculations in general?  

It seems to me that I have a number of beliefs that strongly
contradict my preferences when it comes to the HP books, some
of which I've mentioned on the list.  I often find myself 
holding conflicting views between what I think would be "right" 
for the events or characters in the books, and what I suspect 
the author plans to do with them.  But then, I don't have a
shipping preference.

> David, who would like to hear more of Elkins' views on 
> the evil, twisted and deranged nature of the romantic 
> paradigm

Oh, I don't like that romantic paradigm.  No, sir.  I don't
like it at all.

It enforces what has always struck me as a very bizarre and 
artificial notion: namely, that the closest relationship in 
ones life "ought" to have a sexual element.  If it does not, 
then it is dismissed as "just" friendship.  

It also enforces the equally (to my mind) bizarre and artificial 
notion that a sexual relationship "ought" to be deeply emotionally 
and intellectually fulfilling.  If it is not, then it is dismissed 
as "cheap" sex.

It fosters "couple-think," which I find simply *creepy* and which
causes previously sane and rational people to start behaving in 
strange and unaccountable ways.

It causes them start talking in the first person plural, as if 
they have just been assimilated by some hive-minded alien species.  

It causes them to become morose if they are not currently sexually 
involved with anyone -- not because they are sexually frustrated,
which at least would be comprehensible, but rather, because they 
aren't a part of a *couple.*  

It causes them to whine piteously about the person they *are* 
sexually involved with, because that person is actually completely 
emotionally and intellectually incompatable with them, and yet 
they refuse to believe it.  After all, they're having SEX, aren't 
they?  So how could that person not be a perfect companion?

It causes previously sensible individuals to start using phrases 
like "soul mate."

It causes women get all whiney with their boyfriends.  

It causes men to get all sullen with their girlfriends.  

It causes gay couples, who surely ought to know better, to fall 
into grotesquely stereotypical gender patterns every last bit as 
icky as those of their straight counterparts.  

It causes people to believe that they can *change* each other.

Even worse, it causes people to believe that it is morally 
acceptable, rather than downright wicked, for them to *try* 
to change each other.

And even worse, it all too often causes people to *succeed* in 
changing each other.  And never for the better.

In the end, it turns people who were once charming, intelligent, 
interesting individuals into scary, inexplicable, boring, 
brainwashed, Hollow Man *POD PEOPLE* with eyes as dead and 
as empty as those of the Dementor Kiss'd.  And who then want 
nothing more than for *you* to become a pod person too.  Just 
like them.  Because oh, don't you see?  You'll be ever so much 
*happier* that way!

Brrrrrrrrrrrrrr!

Nope.  No, sir.  I don't like that whole couple dynamic thing.  
I don't like it at *all.*  It is just plain *evil,* it is, and 
there are very few romance plotlines that manage not to strike 
me as propaganda for its Borg-like cause.


So.  Aren't you glad you asked?  ;-)


Elkins 

who finds that she often tends to lose her friends once they get 
involved in romantic relationships, but who can't even *begin* to 
imagine why.




From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Fri Jan 10 03:44:34 2003
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd <jkusalavagemd@yahoo.com>)
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 03:44:34 -0000
Subject: Couplethink Rant (WAS: Shipping the Trio and the Twins)
In-Reply-To: <avlb5f+a8u5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <avlfj2+988q@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "ssk7882 <skelkins at a...>" 
<skelkins at a...> wrote:


> Oh, I don't like that romantic paradigm.  No, sir.  I don't
> like it at all.
> 
> It enforces what has always struck me as a very bizarre and 
> artificial notion: namely, that the closest relationship in 
> ones life "ought" to have a sexual element.  If it does not, 
> then it is dismissed as "just" friendship.  
> 
> It also enforces the equally (to my mind) bizarre and artificial 
> notion that a sexual relationship "ought" to be deeply emotionally 
> and intellectually fulfilling.  If it is not, then it is dismissed 
> as "cheap" sex.


> 
> 
> So.  Aren't you glad you asked?  ;-)
> 
> 
> Elkins 
> 
Allow me to make an observation that might help explain that bizarre 
and artificial notion.

This issue is-- or was-- viewed differently by males and females.  I 
no longer hold the following opinion (two score years since have 
taught me its artificiality) but at the time I believed it as Gospel, 
and I was not alone among my (male) peers.  It is that the 
relationship, or the love, isn't real unless there is sex.  The sex 
somehow ratifies the validity of the relationship.  The (very 
bizarre) reasoning went as follows:  any guy could be nice to a girl 
and be have her be nice in return.  the friendship thus was simple 
courtesy, and nothing special.  It was the sexual act that lifted the 
relationship from the mundane and made it "real" somehow.  This 
attitude was all tied up with the "double standard", with the notion 
that the girl was "giving up" something, and with other obsolete ways 
of thinking about the opposite gender, but when I read this post, it 
made me wonder just how obsolete this attitude was.

Haggridd





From Malady579 at hotmail.com  Fri Jan 10 05:43:41 2003
From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody <Malady579@hotmail.com>)
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 05:43:41 -0000
Subject: Couplethink Rant
In-Reply-To: <avlb5f+a8u5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <avlmid+vjfi@eGroups.com>

This might be the most foolish thing I do this week because I probably
misunderstood her whole intent of her post, but I cannot help but take
on "The Elkins" (as my HP friends like to call her) here.

I am not sure if this springs from my need to desperately believe my
romantic heart or my realistic mind.  I just cannot accept a world
covered in unhappy, wasted, manipulated married people who want
nothing more than to be free, and that is the way I felt after I read
your post Elkins.


> In the end, it turns people who were once charming, intelligent,
> interesting individuals into scary, inexplicable, boring,
> brainwashed, Hollow Man *POD PEOPLE* with eyes as dead and
> as empty as those of the Dementor Kiss'd.  And who then want
> nothing more than for *you* to become a pod person too.  Just
> like them.  Because oh, don't you see?  You'll be ever so much
> *happier* that way!

For reasons unbeknownst to me beyond I like the book, I think of
"Pride and Prejudice" and Elizabeth and Darcy.  I really liked that
couple.  A lot.  I like how they played together.  I liked how their
plot shifted.  I like how they are not perfect.  But in Jane Austin
novels, the fun of the story ends with marriage.  The whole build up
arches until that event, and frankly, if we look at the married people
in her works, seems she has the same notions you do.  It is a bother
and damn shame how people shift from these blushing, fascinating
youths to sarcastic, vexing married people.

I know, many on this site are better at examining Jane Austin than I,
but that was the first work that popped in my head.  But also because,
at the end of her novels, there seems to be a hope, or at least *I*
had a hope, that these two will be different.  They will survive
because their romance was not typical or expected.  Maybe that *is* my
romantic notions poking out, but I just can't believe everyone is
doomed Elkins.  I just can't.

And yet, I see my friends in RL.  The ones "happily" married with 2.5
children.  They seem so...so...sedated.  Like they are doing what they
are supposed to be doing and following the guideposts of it all.
Well, good for them.  Someone has too I guess.

Hmmm, it is a bit sickening.  The way they are trying to be what they
are told they should be.  Trying to live "ideally."  Yeah, as if
*that* will happen.

Wait - you will not persuade me.  Not *every* couple is doomed.

And yet the fun *is* in the chase, but once you get them, what do you
do with them?  Seems books lack in that area.  All that is told is get
a house, have babies, get cable, and new shoes every September, and
life is *grand*.

Oh great, now you've brought out my sarcasm.

And yet - Elkins - I know you are talking about the paradigm.  What is
shown to all as the "right" way to have a relationship/marriage.  Why
is it that so many reduce themselves to be so easily slotted into that
paradigm in the first place?  Seems many go kicking and screaming
socially into it but accept it and learn to abide by it.  Is it a stem
from apathy?

Yes - that maybe it.  What you hate Elkins is apathy.  When one
accepts a role and stops kicking, they become sedate and apathetic to
even what others perceive them to be.  All they really care is what is
in that little circle of their life.  That is where all the acceptance
they need is.  Odd notion there I guess.  But it is, after all, very
secure, and security is a big deal to most people.

Why is that?  Why would be trade our freedom for a bit of security?
True love aside, why would we enter a marriage?  Because we want that
person around us as much as we can.  My brother is getting married
real soon, and him and his fiancee are terrible annoying in a way but
kind of cute.  They are young.  Ideal.  Trying to do everything right.
 I want to scream most of the time at their mundaneness, but it fits
them.  The main reason he wants to marry her though is out of a deep
desire to preserve the way he feels and she feels in themselves.

He wants to protect it and nurture it.  I sure they have other
reasons, but that *is* the main reason in my mind.  They truly enjoy
being around each other whether they are bickering or being all cutesy.

Now, Elkins, does that mean my brother and his girl shouldn't marry
because they are trying to achieve ideals?  I think their wedding
might be a bit boring, but I am not them.  They are fine with all
that.  She picked out the typical pastel bridesmaid dresses, he chose
the ever so important vest color.  Oh dear, I am getting cynical
again.  I will enjoy their wedding.  I promise.  I dearly love my brother.

It is just...just...I guess you are right in a since Elkins.  The idea
of being that boring scares me.  I hate the idea of having to go to a
"advice" book on how to run my life let alone a wedding.  I mean, who
cares what they think.

Maybe that is my outcry here.  Not that you have correctly deduced 99%
of the population's relationships, but because you discredit the
chance that even 1% would be in fact a good, balanced,
well-proportioned couple.  I will admit they are rare, but I do think
they carry the torch of romance beyond the alter.  And why do they
carry it?  Because they never read the "rules" nor were introduced to
them.  They are as they are.  Sometimes even weirder, and sometimes
even more sedate, but they are at least not out to fit into an
impossible, terribly annoying, cruel mold.

I must - I MUST believe that can happen.  All are not subject to the
same apathies.  Same need for security and sameness.  People can be
individual and still manage to hold someone so dear.  All without
fear.  It is hard and requires much faith, but...but...it can be done.
 Takes much willpower and strength of character though.  Few people
culture that in their life.  Nor do they culture their own ideas.
Most are happy to be within realms of normalcy.

It was once told to me that 'a truly free man can turn down a dinner
invitation without an excuse'.

I always remembered that because I find it quite true.  Not that the
man lived a life beyond accountability, but because he lived in enough
grace to be asked and enough respect not be asked the next question of
'why?'.  In there lies the key to me.  The age-old trust and respect
of each other.

I think that *is* lacking sorely in most romantic paradigms.  Oh, they
*say* they trust them, but deep down they are afraid.  Afraid one day
all will change and their precious world will be crumbled.  Fear is a
nasty manipulator of relationships.


Now did I accomplish what I set out here today?  Frankly I don't think
I did.  I think I went off in venues that Elkins might not of intended
originally.  Sorry.  I may not hold as much venom on the paradigm, but
I do see why it can be a little frustrating.  One wants adventure, but
often must learn, and unfortunately this happens *after* the vows, the
road to adventure is beyond the realm of reasonable safety, so one
must decide which is more important.

Most people in the world can deal with disappointment but not with
solitude.  They need that person to say that they are in fact needed.
 Their existence is important.  And for that, people will stop being
interesting and start being dependable.

Neediness can be a nastier than fear for it is born out of it.


Melody
who also hates the word "soulmate."  *Way* over used.




From dradamsapple at yahoo.com  Fri Jan 10 06:01:29 2003
From: dradamsapple at yahoo.com (dradamsapple <dradamsapple@yahoo.com>)
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 06:01:29 -0000
Subject: Maybe July??? (was OOP: No news is no news
In-Reply-To: <16705837.1042134598073.JavaMail.root@webmail.i-55.com>
Message-ID: <avlnjp+ajlb@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, rvotaw at i... wrote:
> 
>
> The Leaky Cauldron has this link posted:
> 
> http://quote.bloomberg.com/fgcgi.cgi?mnu=news&ptitle=Technology%
> 
20UK&tp=ad_uknews&T=news_storypage99.ht&ad=uktechnology&s=APh2njBZ2Qmx
vb21z
> 
> Where Bloomsbury says they would like to publish OoP in July.  
July?  Are they 
> kidding?  How can we possibly wait that long? 
> 
> Richelle
> 


Well folks,
Looks like July is a popular month for new beginnings . . .

I just checked out The Leaky Cauldron too, and they had a link 
to 'The Hollywood Stock Exchange', which listed the stocks prices, 
etc, (I'm absolutley ignorant about stocks, etc) for the future 
installment of HPOT3, as they put it. If you click on one of the 
actors under 'Credits', it will list the actors film history with the 
date of the release and where POA is listed, it states "July 31, 
2004"!! uuuuggghhh!!!! 
Talk about not being able to wait that long!!! At that rate, the 
actors my indeed be to old to continue. Let us hope not!!
Well, I guess that's a pretty good Harry!birtday present for us all!!

try this link;

http://movies.hsx.com/servlet/SecurityDetail?symbol=HPOT3

Anna  . . . (who is praying the link works, otherwise, just go to 
TLC!!)
>
]




From anise_leinen at yahoo.com  Fri Jan 10 06:01:51 2003
From: anise_leinen at yahoo.com (anise_leinen <anise_leinen@yahoo.com>)
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 06:01:51 -0000
Subject: I'm done. I can't believe it.This was reallyreallyreally hard
Message-ID: <avlnkf+q64g@eGroups.com>

Why is this off topic, even though it's about fanfic? Because this 
post is going to consist entirely of WHINING!! Mwah ha. You have been 
warned. 

I really cannot believe I did this, and I think I'm certifiable (by 
this point, anyway, or maybe I had to be to think of this in the 
first place) but NOW I'M DONE. I finished a four minute fanfilm of my 
fanfic, Jewel of the Harem. It was like the tasks of Sisyphus and the 
labors of Hercules, with perhaps a bit of the Bataan Death March and 
the experience of being forced to sit through a Jean-Claude Van Damm 
movie marathon by the end. SO...MUCH... WORK. Not to be believed. I 
would like backrubs and foot rubs and slave boys bringing peeled 
grapes on a tray. :) This will probably not happen, but after ungodly 
amounts of time and 2 a.m. editing sessions and AfterFX and Photoshop 
and Illustrator and Premiere and Flash and 3DSMax and probably 75 
different versions to get to this glorious point,I just had to VENT!

(whine over)
Anise




From judyshapiro at directvinternet.com  Fri Jan 10 09:26:04 2003
From: judyshapiro at directvinternet.com (Judy <judyshapiro@directvinternet.com>)
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 09:26:04 -0000
Subject: Couplethink Rant 
In-Reply-To: <avlb5f+a8u5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <avm3jc+tgfv@eGroups.com>

Elkins started off her Couplethink rant by saying:
> Oh, I don't like that romantic paradigm.  No, sir.  I don't
> like it at all.

and continued on to:
> In the end, it turns people who were once charming, intelligent, 
> interesting individuals into scary, inexplicable, boring, 
> brainwashed, Hollow Man *POD PEOPLE* with eyes as dead and 
> as empty as those of the Dementor Kiss'd.  And who then want 
> nothing more than for *you* to become a pod person too.  Just 
> like them.  Because oh, don't you see?  You'll be ever so much 
> *happier* that way!...

I just have to say this: Elkins, let me guess -- your husband feels
*exactly* the same way, right?  

I've tried to figure out how much of Elkins' analysis applies to my
own marriage.  Not much, fortunately.  My husband does try to change
me, but when he succeeds, it's been for the better.  For example, he's
convinced me that just because something goes wrong, doesn't
necessarily mean that anyone is at fault.  On the other hand, he
hasn't managed to do anything about my tendancy to stay up all night
(look at the time of this post!) which is a shame.  We don't whine
about each other, because we are happy with each other.  (Um, er, we
do tend to talk in the first person plural though, or at least we --
oops, I meant *I* -- do.)

But, I bet Elkins will agree with one of my pet peeves.  I despise the
phrase "significant other" when used to mean "sexual partner."  (It's
OK in its original sociological sense of all close relationships,
including non-sexual ones.)  What, if you aren't in a sexual
realtionship, that means you are insignificant by definition?  

Melody, I think I read Elkin's post differently than you did.  I read
it as a complaint against all the social pressure put on people to
pair up, rather than a statement that romantic relationships
themselves are necessarily bad. 

-- Judy, who is tired and is thinking of going to pod




From lupinesque at yahoo.com  Fri Jan 10 11:31:26 2003
From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z <lupinesque@yahoo.com>)
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 11:31:26 -0000
Subject: Couplethink Rant (WAS: Shipping the Trio and the Twins)
In-Reply-To: <avlfj2+988q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <avmaue+3mu4@eGroups.com>

Haggridd wrote:

>The (very 
> bizarre) reasoning went as follows:  any guy could be nice to a 
girl 
> and be have her be nice in return.  

That's where the reasoning breaks down.  I know plenty of guys who 
are completely incapable of meeting this premise.

;-)
Amy




From bray.262 at osu.edu  Fri Jan 10 08:19:41 2003
From: bray.262 at osu.edu (Rachel Bray)
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 08:19:41 +0000 (EST5EDT)
Subject: I thought this was cute
Message-ID: <39E448F4D32@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>

http://www.lordofthepeeps.com/lotp/fotp.html


Some people have too much time on their hands.

Rachel Bray
The Ohio State University
Fees & Deposits

The light at the end of the tunnel may be an 
angry, flying Ford Anglia.



From ken.kuller at veritas.com  Fri Jan 10 15:50:28 2003
From: ken.kuller at veritas.com (Kenneth M. Kuller <ken.kuller@veritas.com>)
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 15:50:28 -0000
Subject: I thought this was cute
In-Reply-To: <39E448F4D32@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>
Message-ID: <avmq45+glmf@eGroups.com>

Lord of the Rings is definitely off-topic, so I thought I'd share 
this tid-bit.  It appears that Frodo has failed in his mission:

? http://www.pwasoh.com/phunies/bush/frodo_has_failed



--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Rachel Bray <bray.262 at o...> 
wrote:
> http://www.lordofthepeeps.com/lotp/fotp.html
> 
> 
> Some people have too much time on their hands.
> 
> Rachel Bray
> The Ohio State University
> Fees & Deposits
> 
> The light at the end of the tunnel may be an 
> angry, flying Ford Anglia.




From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Fri Jan 10 15:59:54 2003
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David <dfrankiswork@netscape.net>)
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 15:59:54 -0000
Subject: Couplethinking
In-Reply-To: <avlb5f+a8u5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <avmqlq+doj2@eGroups.com>

Elkins wrote:

> David, who can dish out categorization but not take it, wrote:

Ah, a list member who *reads*...

I wrote:
> > There's also the tricky question of what you think is 'true' 
> > or will happen versus what you want to be true - not that I've 
> > come across anyone with beliefs that strongly contradict their 
> > preferences (e.g. "I think canon is firmly R/H but I feel Harry 
> > is the right person for Hermione").
> 
and Elkins asked (all subsequent quotes are from her too):
> Do you mean just when it comes to shipping, David?  Or to 
> speculations in general?  

I meant primarily shipping, and then other issues that seem to 
animate the fandom generally, such as redeemable Draco.  Sadly, 
whether Neville learns to repudiate the house system, or whether 
Stan Shunpike has really experienced equality of opportunity, don't 
seem to have made the fandom hot button issues list.

> Oh, I don't like that romantic paradigm.  No, sir.  I don't
> like it at all.
>
Good summary of Bad Things snipped

I can add:

It causes supermarkets to pre-wrap only even numbers of things;

It causes single people to postpone non-couple life goals;

It causes babies to be seen simultaneously as cute accessories and 
sleep-disturbing monsters;

It causes children to be regarded as an acceptable excuse not to 
invite their parents to things;

> It causes people to believe that they can *change* each other.

I am less sure about this and the next two (snipped) ill effects.  
My observation is that many people imagine that if they find the 
right partner they themselves will miraculously change into the 
person they want to be.  Perhaps it's a UK/US difference?

> In the end, it turns people who were once charming, intelligent, 
> interesting individuals into scary, inexplicable, boring, 
> brainwashed, Hollow Man *POD PEOPLE* with eyes as dead and 
> as empty as those of the Dementor Kiss'd.  And who then want 
> nothing more than for *you* to become a pod person too.  Just 
> like them.  Because oh, don't you see?  You'll be ever so much 
> *happier* that way!

I wonder if this should be laid at the door of coupledom.  I suspect 
that many people are looking to find a place in their life where 
they are effectively coasting, where they have 'made it' 
or 'arrived'.  Until then, they make an effort and are interesting 
etc.  Afterwards, the changes you describe apply.

Put it this way: many people are trying to get to the "They lived 
happily ever after" part of their story.  That part is boring 
because it is always omitted from the story, and so people living it 
are living a boring story for their fellows to read.  Many "Happy 
ever after" stories do imply that the way to get there is the 
partner you find, but it is not the only way.  I have seen similar 
behaviour with wealth, or religious peace.  So I'd say, blame "Happy 
ever after", not the romantic paradigm it parasitises, for this one.

> So.  Aren't you glad you asked?  ;-)

Yes.  Seriously, yes.

David, who would quite like to try being a Borg. (Seriously, IIRC it 
has been demonstrated that with a wire connected to the brain you 
can move a spot on a computer screen by thinking at it, and people 
with some types of blindness have been enabled to have a degree of 
vision similarly connected.  So the rest is just engineering.  
Barring environmental collapse, it will happen.)




From tabouli at unite.com.au  Fri Jan 10 16:09:04 2003
From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli)
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 03:09:04 +1100
Subject: Decoupling
Message-ID: <001a01c2b8c2$9a1181c0$512432d2@price>

The Elk ranting about the romantic paradigm!  Ooo, fascinating.  Even at 2am, how could I resist?  Perhaps I can squeeze in a quick musing now and then muse in more depth tomorrow.

I have often pondered along similar lines.  The whole notion that one is somehow tragic and incomplete without a sexual partner gets my goat.  The well-meaning but infuriating types who tell you you will End Up Alone if you keep being So Fussy (the implication being that life without a sexual partner is not worth living so you should take whatever you can get and be grateful).  And, worse still, dig up the most frightful single people of the appropriate gender in their social circle and try to Set You Up.  Ugh!

It's everywhere, this notion.  Dinners for two... for you and "someone special".  Some article I read about Jodie Foster saying "It seems so sad that someone so beautiful and talented has no-one to share her life with".  A (former) friend of mine whose comment after my stomach operation was "Well look at you!  You nearly died, and what would you have had to show for it?"  At my incredulous protests ("Are you saying my life would have been worthless because I don't have a *boyfriend*??") she replied "Well isn't that what life's about?  Finding love?"

The fact of the matter is that I have, to date, *always* been happier when single than when in a sexual relationship.  *Always*. (cue for friends to coo "oooh, but that's because you just haven't met the right guy...").  Relationships have the very effect on me that Elkins describes.  A relationship consumes so much of my mental space and time and energy, narrows my focus, dominates my brain.  Relationships podify me.  Haven't had one for two years and haven't missed having one.  And have been happier in the last two years than I ever was before now when I was having a series of what were really pretty unsatisfactory relationships.

The most irksome thing about it isn't the lack of boyfriend, it's people's refusal to believe that you can be happy without one.  They are convinced that you are just in denial, or putting a brave face on it, or playing the independent woman who needs no-one role and fooling no-one, or, most insultingly of all, that the reason why you're single is because there's Something Wrong With You (too fussy, too unrealistic, "threatened by men", too old, too unattractive... the list goes on).

It really gets offensive.

That isn't to say that I'd say no if a relationship that looked like it had the potential to be really fulfilling and stimulating was on offer.  But if one isn't, however, why enter a relationship you know doesn't have that potential just for the sake of being in a couple?  For the sake of "having someone"?  For "not being alone"?  I mean, really!  Alone.  Being in a bad relationship is MUCH MORE ALONE than being single and happy!

As to where this couplethink concept comes from, I've had a number of thoughts on this in the last few years.  I went through a phase three or four years ago when I did want a relationship.  When I really did feel lonely, and alienated, and craved the attention and affection.  Interestingly enough, this was when I was spending the great majority of my time doing things I didn't value.  Doing a full-time job which consumed five days a week and going home to my thesis, seeing friends for brief periods on weeknights or weekends.  I had very little time and energy and mental space left for doing things I valued and enjoyed which made me feel happy and fulfilled, and I think this is the key.  I wanted a relationship because I wanted to feel valued and wanted, to get some personalised attention and affection and intimacy.  Some me time.

Now that I'm no longer working full-time, and have lots of time to do things I value, time and mental space to think and breathe and explore life and see my friends, I don't feel the need for a relationship at all.

I wonder if this has a lot to do with the couplethink syndrome.  Someone who is spending the majority of their time generating income who doesn't gain a great deal of enjoyment or personal satisfaction from their job, or have the time and opportunity to develop intimate connections with other people (apart from their colleagues, if they're lucky) is, I think, susceptible to feeling bored and lonely and unfulfilled.  And relationships promise stimulation and company and fulfilment.  Sure, they often don't deliver, but even fairly mediocre relationships provide some personalised attention.  Even the illusion of intimacy gives you something to cling to.  And, as Elkins points out so ruefully, people *do* cling most tenaciously to unsatisfactory relationships all too often, because the alternative is just too grim.

Then there's the individualist society factor.  I ran a series of workshops for international students (mostly from Asia) and got them to speculate about what various items said about Australian society.  One of the things I gave them was a page from the lonely hearts column in the local paper, and a Thai (or was he Indonesian?) man said something quite interesting.  He said that Westerners seem to be obsessed with "finding love" and "soulmates" and so on in a way people in his country aren't.  In his country, you (hopefully) get that sort of feeling of belonging and intimacy from your extended family, and it's not so crucial to find a spouse to complete you and fulfil all your emotional needs, there's a much stronger element of social obligation.  You get more choice about how you run your life in the West, he said, people are much more independent of their families and can focus on themselves and what they want, but it often comes at the price of loneliness and alienation.

I don't know how far I'd take this guy's theory, or his generalisations about the cultures concerned, but it did make me think.

Tabouli.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From Lord1912 at juno.com  Fri Jan 10 16:59:48 2003
From: Lord1912 at juno.com (lord1912 <Lord1912@juno.com>)
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 16:59:48 -0000
Subject: Couplethink Rant (WAS: Shipping the Trio and the Twins)
In-Reply-To: <avlfj2+988q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <avmu64+goq4@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Haggridd 
<jkusalavagemd at y...>" <jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:


> This issue is-- or was-- viewed differently by males and females.  
I 
> no longer hold the following opinion (two score years since have 
> taught me its artificiality) but at the time I believed it as 
Gospel, 
> and I was not alone among my (male) peers.  It is that the 
> relationship, or the love, isn't real unless there is sex.  The 
sex 
> somehow ratifies the validity of the relationship.  The (very 
> bizarre) reasoning went as follows:  any guy could be nice to a 
girl 
> and be have her be nice in return.  the friendship thus was simple 
> courtesy, and nothing special.  It was the sexual act that lifted 
the 
> relationship from the mundane and made it "real" somehow.  This 
> attitude was all tied up with the "double standard", with the 
notion 
> that the girl was "giving up" something, and with other obsolete 
ways 
> of thinking about the opposite gender, but when I read this post, 
it 
> made me wonder just how obsolete this attitude was.
> 
> Haggridd


Well, as a female who usually holds atypical attitudes, let me chime 
in.  I've always viewed it that one can have a sexual relationship, 
either *with* or *without* love, and that there's nothing 
intherently wrong with either type of relationship.  Each kind fills 
different kinds of needs.  And just so long as both partners 
understand the nature of the relationship from the very beginning, 
there is nothing "cheap" about the sex-without-love relationship.  
And there is not necessarily any double standard involved.

Indeed, I must admit that many years ago when I actually had a life 
{late 1970s}, that there were many times I would get sexually 
involved with someone I would never consider marrying!   For 
instance, if Lucius were a real person, I would most certainly shag 
his socks off, but I'd never bring the guy home to meet the family! 
 
Lady Tavington-Malfoy




From john at queerasjohn.com  Fri Jan 10 17:16:31 2003
From: john at queerasjohn.com (Queer as John)
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 17:16:31 +0000
Subject: ADMIN: No Politics, Preciousssss
In-Reply-To: <avmq45+glmf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <BA44B06F.50A8%john@queerasjohn.com>

*coughs* The Mods would like to reiterate that comments and links (however
amusing) regarding current politics are not allowed on OTChatter or, indeed,
any HPFGU lists. Their side effects include irritation, over-sensitivity and
dry mouth.

So, um, please don't.

Thanks, folks.

--John, for the Mods
______________________________________

Queer as John || john at queerasjohn.com

AIM, YM & LJ @ QueerAsJohn || www.queerasjohn.com

"There's nowt as queer as folk."  --English proverb
______________________________________




From heidit at netbox.com  Fri Jan 10 17:23:49 2003
From: heidit at netbox.com (heiditandy)
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 12:23:49 -0500
Subject: Nimbus - 2003 Quiz
Message-ID: <091801c2b8cd$0b83d1f0$0301a8c0@Frodo>

You've probably seen those quizzes on Live Journals, Blogs, sigfiles,
posts to OT Chatter, et cetera. 
 
Well, to coincide with the last few days of the proposal submission term
for Nimbus - 2003, Team Nimbus - 2003 has put together its very own
quiz, which will help *you* identify what sort of proposal you should
submit to Nimbus (or not!). 
 
You can find the quiz here:
http://quizilla.com/users/blitz/quizzes/What%20Type%20of%20Program%20Sho
uld%20I%20Offer%20to%20Present%20at%20Nimbus%20-%202003%3F - take it,
and take the results to heart! ;)
 
 
heidi for Nimbus - 2003


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From Lord1912 at juno.com  Fri Jan 10 17:24:33 2003
From: Lord1912 at juno.com (lord1912 <Lord1912@juno.com>)
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 17:24:33 -0000
Subject: Couplethink Rant
In-Reply-To: <avm3jc+tgfv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <avmvkh+gneg@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Judy <judyshapiro at d...>" 
<judyshapiro at d...> wrote:
 
> But, I bet Elkins will agree with one of my pet peeves.  I despise 
the
> phrase "significant other" when used to mean "sexual partner."  
(It's
> OK in its original sociological sense of all close relationships,
> including non-sexual ones.)  What, if you aren't in a sexual
> realtionship, that means you are insignificant by definition?  

Judy, I understand and agree with what you mean here, but I don't 
mind this phrase as much "boyfriend" and "girlfriend" used to denote 
one's partner when the couple involved is over the age of 18.  At my 
age of 44, referring to a "boyfriend" would be patently ludicrous.  
It's interesting that English never devised a serviceable, sensible 
word for adults to use to refer to their partners.

Lady Tavington-Malfoy




From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Fri Jan 10 18:43:39 2003
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David <dfrankiswork@netscape.net>)
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 18:43:39 -0000
Subject: Authorial Responsibilities (WAS: Nimbus question)
In-Reply-To: <avl15p+315s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <avn48r+q5mk@eGroups.com>

I don't write fiction so I may be missing some points here...

Elkins wrote:

> I absolutely do not believe that authors have a responsibility 
> to write for the broadest possible audience.  

> Most popular authors truly aren't pandering; 
> for the most part, they come by their popularity honestly.  I 
> don't think that we would have very much at all in the way of 
> enjoyable fiction if authors regularly operated under the 
assumption 
> that their goal should be to strive to reach the widest of all 
> conceivable audiences.

I'm not sure I fully understand here.  First, two small nitpicks:  

1) I can see why pandering would usually lead to poor fiction, but 
not why it is dishonest.

2) Also, it's one thing to make popularity your goal, another to 
admit you don't exclude it 

My real question though is to do with breadth and popularity.  I'm 
not sure they are the same thing.  I will come back to this under 
commissioning below.

> When it comes right down to it, I actually think it rather 
> cheeky for readers to try to dictate the content or direction 
> of an author's work -- particularly when the work in question 
> is an amateur work of fiction for which the author is not even 
> getting *paid.*

Now here we have a new distinction: reader rights versus authorial 
responsibilities.  I think if I were a fiction author I would resent 
readers trying to influence my writing, sure.  But I might still 
feel a responsibility to them.  I think they're different things.
> 
> To be brutally crass here, if you are *commissioning* a work 
> of writing, then I believe you can make a case for your "right" 
> to dictate its content or style.  Publishers do get to dictate.  
> That is because they are the ones holding the purse strings.  
> Professional writers understand this, and people who write for 
> a living learn how to go about writing to spec.  When they do 
this, 
> though, they generally do expect to get *paid.*  Few people relish 
> the idea of writing to someone else's specifications unless there's
> going to be a check in the mail.

Now here I must disagree, unless I am one of the few.  I don't write 
fiction, but I do write a lot.  I write technical reports for paying 
customers.  I don't think I could do it if I didn't enjoy it.  There 
is a great deal of pleasure to be had from getting across the thing 
you want to say within the constraints under which you are 
operating.  (Doubtless some of my colleagues would claim that my 
reports are fiction ;-) )  It's a challenge.

And this type of writing has associated responsibilities you haven't 
mentioned at all.  The responsibility to be truthful.  To be 
unambiguous - ironically enough to ensure as far as possible that 
what the reader interprets is *exactly* what you intend (surely 
lawyers and list moderators must have to do this too) and nothing 
else.  A deal of effort, I'd say, goes into reviewing reports and 
looking for 'subversive' readings with the intention of rewriting to 
make them impossible.  Not just technical errors, you understand, 
but political (in the sense of organisational politics) implications.

I don't know if any of this is at all applicable to fiction writing -
 the only thing I can extrapolate from my experience is that I would 
like to feel that my readers understand what I'm writing.  Any 
thoughts?

> Not everyone is dominated by 
> the desire for popularity, and since people don't make any money 
off 
> of fanfiction anyway, one of the major incentives to cater to 
popular 
> tastes is absent.  The amateur writer is liberated from the 
pressures 
> of the marketplace -- which for many people is actually 
amateurism's 
> greatest appeal.

Hm.  I wonder what popularity does to fanfic authors when they get 
it though.  I'm sure I could get a taste for it without any money.

David




From skelkins at attbi.com  Fri Jan 10 19:23:43 2003
From: skelkins at attbi.com (ssk7882 <skelkins@attbi.com>)
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 19:23:43 -0000
Subject: Couplethinking
In-Reply-To: <avmqlq+doj2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <avn6jv+urpm@eGroups.com>

That felt good.  I should rant more often.  ;-)

Haggridd wrote:

> This issue is-- or was-- viewed differently by males and females. I 
> no longer hold the following opinion (two score years since have 
> taught me its artificiality) but at the time I believed it as 
> Gospel, and I was not alone among my (male) peers. It is that the 
> relationship, or the love, isn't real unless there is sex. 

Yes.  And the female counterpart to that belief, of course, is
that if there is sex, then there must really be love.

Same dynamic, as I see it.  Slightly different take.


> This attitude was all tied up with the "double standard", with 
> the notion that the girl was "giving up" something, and with other 
> obsolete ways of thinking about the opposite gender, but when I 
> read this post, it made me wonder just how obsolete this attitude 
> was.

Sadly, I don't think that it's nearly as obsolete as I dearly wish
that it were, although I agree with you that it is beginning to
fade away.  

I'm not altogether sure, though, that the dynamic to which I was 
referring necessarily requires that old double standard in order 
to persist.  Mainly, I think that the engine on which it runs is 
the elevation of the romantic or sexual relationship as the be-all 
and end-all of human interaction, a notion which doesn't really
require acceptance of Dat Ol' Double Standard.  It can also live 
quite comfortably -- indeed, perhaps in some ways even *more* 
comfortably -- with the more recent post-sexual-revolution "what's 
good for the goose is good for the gander" stance, I think. 


Melody wrote:

> This might be the most foolish thing I do this week because I 
> probably misunderstood her whole intent of her post, but I cannot 
> help but take on "The Elkins" (as my HP friends like to call her) 
> here...

<blink, blink>

<blink, blink, blink>

There are really people who call me "The Elkins?"

Oh dear!  

> I just cannot accept a world covered in unhappy, wasted, 
> manipulated married people who want nothing more than to be free, 
> and that is the way I felt after I read your post Elkins.

Oh, double dear.  Now I am experiencing remorse.  Such a pesky thing, 
remorse. 

May I offer you a soothing cup of hot chocolate, Melody?  

> Wait - you will not persuade me. Not *every* couple is doomed.

Well, I certainly hope not!  Would it help at all here if I told you
that I've been married for over eight years now?  And I don't think
that I'm soul dead.  Not *quite* yet, at any rate. <g>

Judy mischievously asked:

> I just have to say this: Elkins, let me guess -- your husband 
> feels *exactly* the same way, right? 

But of course!  We believe that it is frightening and disturbing
when people who are supposedly individuals choose to speak with 
one voice.  We believe that this is symptomatic of a truly dire 
blight on the cultural landscape.  We just don't like that sort
of thing at all.

Right, honey?


Melody:

> And yet - Elkins - I know you are talking about the paradigm. What 
> is shown to all as the "right" way to have a relationship/marriage. 
> Why is it that so many reduce themselves to be so easily slotted 
> into that paradigm in the first place?

I.  Don't.  **KNOW!**

Seriously.  Can you tell that this is one of my pet peeves?  Why on
earth do people feel the need to behave so very *strangely?*

When I was single, people used to tell me: "Oh, you just don't
understand.  You'll understand when it happens to you."

Now that I have been married for rather a while, when the subject
comes up, and I point out that my husband and I do not behave in
this (supposedly inevitable) manner, people just tell me:  "Oh!  
Well, but you two are *different!*"

Well, yes.  <sigh>  So it would seem.

I strongly suspect that what people *really* mean when they say
that we are "different" is that they don't believe that we can
possibly really care about each other at all.  They're just far
too polite to come right out and say so.

Well...except for that one person who did, of course.  There's
always one of those, isn't there?

Whatever.

> Maybe that is my outcry here. Not that you have correctly 
> deduced 99% of the population's relationships, but because 
> you discredit the chance that even 1% would be in fact a good, 
> balanced, well-proportioned couple. 

No, I'm sorry if I didn't make myself clear.  I didn't mean to 
be discounting that possibility at all.  It is the overall paradigm 
that I object to, not the very notion of amicable, equitable and
sane relationships which happen to combine friendship with sexual
compatability.  Those most certainly can and do exist.  I do think, 
though, that the ugly weird societal expectation of "romance" all
too often serves more as an impediment to that happenstance than
as an aid to it.

One of the reasons that my husband and I *did* choose to get married, 
actually, was in the hopes of battling the dread Couplethink.  

You see, married people are actually permitted a good deal more 
individuation, in many ways, than unmarried "romantic partners" are.  
In the milieu in which I was raised, for example, married people are 
*never* seated together at dinner parties, nor are they expected to 
spend much time in each other's company at social gatherings.  
Unmarried partners, on the other hand, are *supposed* to spend all 
this time talking (and flirting <shudder>) with each other in public, 
and they are often seated next to each other at table.  Similarly, it 
is in many ways more socially acceptable for married people to keep 
their own friends, pursue their own interests, travel alone, or spend 
long periods of time away from each other than it is for unmarried 
"romantic partners" to do the same.

Presumably this is because, as you pointed out, once people get
married, the "romance" is supposed to come to an end.

Well, good!  As the cultural baggage associated with "romance" is 
precisely what I so dislike, I couldn't have had that happen soon 
enough!

David added to my little list of things that would none of them
be missed:

> It causes supermarkets to pre-wrap only even numbers of things;

Heh.  Not to mention those prizes that Tabouli mentioned: dinner
for two, vacations for two, airfare for two.  All of which means
that if, like me, you live with more than one Significant Other
(ugh!), you find yourself rather hoping that you *won't* win
one of them, just to avoid the issue of deciding which two people
are going to get to enjoy the benefit.

> It causes single people to postpone non-couple life goals;

One of my friends finally bludgeoned her way past this one and
bought herself a house.  But it took her *years* to give in 
and do so.
 
> It causes babies to be seen simultaneously as cute accessories 
> and sleep-disturbing monsters;

You mean they're *not* sleep-disturbing monsters?

> It causes children to be regarded as an acceptable excuse not 
> to invite their parents to things;

Oh yes.  For some reason, my friends have all proven very poor 
breeders, so I hadn't even considered this one.  But that's
true, isn't it?  Childless couples often move with other childless
couples.  They invite their single friends to things only when
they have a single person of the opposite sex they wish to set
said single friend up with.  And their friends who have children?
What happens to them?  All too often, they just get dropped, don't
they?  Not very nice -- especially since I should think that if
anyone desperately needs a bit of the stimulation that a gathering 
of adults can provide, it's parents whose children are still very 
young.

> My observation is that many people imagine that if they find 
> the right partner they themselves will miraculously change 
> into the person they want to be. Perhaps it's a UK/US difference?

Perhaps.  I see both factors at work, and I tend to think of
them as facets of the same phenomenon.  People do often seem to 
think that the right partner will "fix" them, and in fact, that's 
a staple of literature, isn't it?  It's everywhere, not just in
romance fiction, but in all sorts of fiction.  I find it profoundly 
irritating, myself.  *Why* must novels about characters undergoing 
profound philosophical changes in their lives so often tie that into 
some romance plotline?  Why?  It so *annoys* me.  It really does.  
And it's so common, too!  In fact, there are some genres in which it 
seems to be utterly inescapable.  Has there ever been a Utopian novel 
(either positive or negative), in which the protagonist's break with 
his culture is not somehow connected to his sexual desire for some 
woman?  

Yuck.

It's one of the main reasons that I've such a strong aversion to 
romance suplots in fiction, actually.  They're all too often linked
to the protagonist's philosophical or spiritual development in a
manner that...well, that just sort of offends me, honestly.  There's
something about that conflation of sexual attraction and 
philosophical sea change that really bothers me.  As if lust is the 
only thing powerful enough to affect change in the human psyche!  I 
mean, for heaven's sake!  Did Paul get *laid* on the Road To 
Damascus? 


Elkins




From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca  Fri Jan 10 19:50:25 2003
From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (lucky_kari <lucky_kari@yahoo.ca>)
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 19:50:25 -0000
Subject: Couplethinking
In-Reply-To: <avn6jv+urpm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <avn861+oem3@eGroups.com>

Elkins, you know that I am a pretty serious shipper. I can't help it. 
The moment I see two people who might do well together, I want to 
pair 'em up. How this sits with the fact that I haven't the slightest 
desire to pair myself up, I do not know. Perhaps I should take 
the "Elkins course to non-shipping" since I'm nto sure this instinct 
is healthy. 

Anyway, as you also know, I've also been reading Lewis's "The Four 
Loves" recently, in relation to our Crouch discussions, and was very 
struck by his introduction of Friendship, and how modern society does 
not regard it as a real love. 

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "ssk7882 <skelkins at a...>" 
> I strongly suspect that what people *really* mean when they say
> that we are "different" is that they don't believe that we can
> possibly really care about each other at all.  They're just far
> too polite to come right out and say so.
> 
> Well...except for that one person who did, of course.  There's
> always one of those, isn't there?

<snickers>

My parents are very much individuals, I'll tell you. Oh, of course, 
they're on the same wavelength in a lot of ways. That would be 
because they're very good friends. However, they don't even have the 
same political views often. And my mother commits the dreaded sin of 
taking me to the Opera, and not my father, when she has tickets, 
because I like that sort of thing, and he doesn't. People seem to 
think this is a sign of something bad, though they can't much doubt a 
marriage of 21 years which has produced eight children and in which 
the couple seemsto be having so much fun. 

> Heh.  Not to mention those prizes that Tabouli mentioned: dinner
> for two, vacations for two, airfare for two.  All of which means
> that if, like me, you live with more than one Significant Other
> (ugh!), you find yourself rather hoping that you *won't* win
> one of them, just to avoid the issue of deciding which two people
> are going to get to enjoy the benefit.

My pet peeve is "Family Trips for Four." My mother really doesn't 
want to win any of those. 

>I 
> mean, for heaven's sake!  Did Paul get *laid* on the Road To 
> Damascus? 

So that's your problem with LOLLIPOPS, is it?

Eileen




From skelkins at attbi.com  Fri Jan 10 20:58:08 2003
From: skelkins at attbi.com (ssk7882 <skelkins@attbi.com>)
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 20:58:08 -0000
Subject: Authorial Responsibilities (WAS: Nimbus question)
In-Reply-To: <avn48r+q5mk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <avnc50+uh2i@eGroups.com>

I wrote:

> I absolutely do not believe that authors have a responsibility 
> to write for the broadest possible audience. 

> Most popular authors truly aren't pandering; 
> for the most part, they come by their popularity honestly. 

David wrote:

> I'm not sure I fully understand here. First, two small nitpicks: 
> 
> 1) I can see why pandering would usually lead to poor fiction, but 
> not why it is dishonest.

It's not dishonest.  That really was very careless phrasing on my 
part.  Apologies.

What I meant by that was that it is my belief that when popular 
authors say (as the vast majority of them do) that they write their 
works to suit their own tastes and aesthetics, they are speaking
honestly.

In other words, I do not believe that best-selling authors like
Stephen King or Jo Rowling actually sit down at their typewriters
and consciously and deliberately strive to tailor their stories
to suit popular tastes.  I don't think that Rowling decided in
the end to make her protagonist a boy because she thought that 
it would sell better that way.  I don't think that Stephen King
started out his career writing horror novels because he noted
the rising popularity of horror films, saw that few people
were writing the corresponding prose fiction, perceived an open 
niche in the market waiting to be filled, and chose to exploit
it.  I believe those writers when they say that they write what
they write because that's just the way they write. I don't think 
they are lying.

That's really all that I meant by that.

Some writers, of course, *do* "pander," and they admit that
they do.  Many of them also write "how to get published" books,
which try to explain how others might go about trying to follow
their same path to making a living.  That's not dishonest.  It's 
just craftsmanship.  The people who do that, though, are rarely 
*as* successful as the writers whose natural inclinations happen
to intersect with public desire.


> 2) Also, it's one thing to make popularity your goal, another to 
> admit you don't exclude it 

Absolutely.  Writing is communication, after all.  There are
likely some people out there who exclude popularity absolutely 
from their concerns while writing, but I dare say that most 
writers want to be read. 

> My real question though is to do with breadth and popularity. 
> I'm not sure they are the same thing. 

I don't think that they are the same thing, but they intersect
in some very specific ways.  

The example originally up for discussion, for example, was explicit 
sex in fanfiction.  Now, given that fanfic sites have "rating" 
systems and cautionary warnings, and that some people will refuse to 
read fiction which contains explicit sex, or unpopular romantic 
pairings, or non-heterosexual romantic pairings ("slash"), or stories 
which feature OCs, or any number of other things which for whatever 
reason some people do not like (fanfic readers can be very picky), 
the inclusion of any of those things in a work of fanfic will 
automatically reduce its breadth of appeal.

Since this seemed to be one of the issues of concern in this
discussion, I felt some need to point out that *everyone* makes
aesthetic decisions that are going to exclude or displease some 
readers.  You just can't please everyone, and if you tried to
do so, then you would likely end up with something that wouldn't
please *anyone.*

I suppose that the point I was trying to make, buried under
all that verbiage somewhere, was that I don't feel that the
fact that some people really dislike, say, slash pairings ought
to be considered any more weighty a concern for fanfic authors
than the fact that other people really dislike romance plotlines,
or sad endings, or OCs, or divided plotlines which jump back and
forth between multiple POV characters (a la LotR), or whatever
else.  Reader preferences vary a great deal, and I just don't
think it feasible -- let alone desirable! -- for an author to 
try to take them all into consideration.

> Now here we have a new distinction: reader rights versus authorial 
> responsibilities. 

In an open marketplace like the fanfic community, what precisely
*are* reader rights, do you think?

I'm not trying to dismiss the entire idea, you understand.  I'm 
just trying to get a handle on what you think that they are.

> I think if I were a fiction author I would resent readers trying 
> to influence my writing, sure. But I might still feel a 
> responsibility to them. I think they're different things.

They are different things, I agree.

>From the author's point of view, it can be very irritating indeed
when readers will not *trust* you -- a phenomenon which becomes
particularly relevant when what you are writing is serialized
fiction, so that the feedback is hitting you in the face even
as you are trying to write the next installment.

As a reader, on the other hand, one naturally tends to operate
according to the Eileen principle: "Trust no author until she
is *finished.*"

Having been both author and reader, I can sympathize with both
positions.

I said:

> Few people relish the idea of writing to someone else's 
> specifications unless there's going to be a check in the mail.

David replied:

> Now here I must disagree, unless I am one of the few. I don't write 
> fiction, but I do write a lot. I write technical reports for paying 
> customers. I don't think I could do it if I didn't enjoy it. There 
> is a great deal of pleasure to be had from getting across the thing 
> you want to say within the constraints under which you are 
> operating. (Doubtless some of my colleagues would claim that my 
> reports are fiction ;-) ) It's a challenge.

Well, yes.  That's true.  It's part of what makes writing highly
structured poetry -- sonnets, vilanelles, even limericks or
double-dactyls -- feel a lot more satisfying, in many ways, than 
writing free verse does.  It *is* satisfying to work within
certain types of constraints.

"Certain types" is the operative term here, I think.  There are
some kinds of constraints which I find hard to imagine *anyone*
would find all that gratifying to write under.  "I only like this 
particular set of romantic pairings, so no one else in your story 
can be attracted to each other," for example, is unlikely to appeal 
much, unless the author happens to share the reader's particular 
preference.  "I don't like sad endings, so don't write one" is
another.  "I can't stand romance subplots" would be a third.

In terms of the question of to what extent fanfic authors ought
be concerned with the canonical author's feelings, the constraint
would be: "Don't write anything you think that JKR wouldn't like
if she read it."

I cannot *imagine* writing comfortably under that constraint, not
least of which because trying to second-guess what a complete 
stranger's emotional reaction to a piece of fiction might be is 
a totally hopeless endeavor.

David:

> And this type of writing has associated responsibilities you 
> haven't mentioned at all. The responsibility to be truthful. To 
> be unambiguous - ironically enough to ensure as far as possible 
> that what the reader interprets is *exactly* what you intend 
> (surely lawyers and list moderators must have to do this too) 
> and nothing else. . . .

> I don't know if any of this is at all applicable to fiction 
> writing - the only thing I can extrapolate from my experience 
> is that I would like to feel that my readers understand what 
> I'm writing. 

Well, technical or legal writing is a very different animal than 
prose fiction or poetry or essay.  Ambiguity and clarity are enemies 
in technical and legal writing, but in other types of writing they 
are often steadfast allies.  Poetry in particular conveys meaning 
through the ambiguities inherent in the language: through metaphor, 
through double-meaning, through imagery.  We call this "nuance," 
and it is important because, paradoxically enough, it can convey 
meaning that cannot be expressed nearly as precisely *without*
the ambiguity.  

That's where you can get into the "promulgating poor values" problem,
for example.  Fiction often puts loathsome opinions into the mouths 
of characters, or shows characters doing wicked things.  Sometimes 
people object to this on the grounds that it is insufficiently clear 
that the *author* actually condemns these attitudes or practices.  
This, they claim, makes the work of fiction "immoral."

Now, as you know, I have no objection to criticizing books on such 
grounds, or to discussing the ramifications of the ambiguities 
inherent in their presentation.  I do, however, find it a bit odd 
when people seem to think that the *existence* of such ambiguities in 
the text is a Bad Thing.  I am very hard-pressed to think of an 
unambiguous work of fiction that I really consider all that *good.*  
I have to admit that often when I read such objections, I find myself 
wondering whether people would really prefer a work of fiction that 
had been written like a technical manual.  Perhaps, for example, 
there could be a footnote at the bottom of each page, explaining the 
precise intended dramatic significance of every last thing in the 
text?

I don't think that I'd much like to read a story or poem or essay 
that had been written in the same style as a technical manual.  Nor, 
however, would I be at all pleased with a technical manual or legal
document that had been written as a poem.  Different writing styles 
are used for different things.



Elkins




From dicentra at xmission.com  Fri Jan 10 21:30:01 2003
From: dicentra at xmission.com (dicentra63 <dicentra@xmission.com>)
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 21:30:01 -0000
Subject: Couplethinking
In-Reply-To: <avn6jv+urpm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <avne0p+pehs@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "ssk7882 <skelkins at a...>"
<skelkins at a...> wrote:
> That felt good.  I should rant more often.  ;-)

Yes, you should!  It's highly entertaining, if nothing else.

The Elkins (sorry, couldn't resist):
It enforces what has always struck me as a very bizarre and
artificial notion: namely, that the closest relationship in
ones life "ought" to have a sexual element. If it does not,
then it is dismissed as "just" friendship. 

This is a big pet peeve for me, too.  It surfaced during my sojourn in
X-Files fandom, when people kept insisting that there was something
sexual going on between Mulder and Scully--or that there should be.  

"I mean, *look* at them," a friend of mine would say. "They're both
young and attractive, and they spend all that time together.  There's
no *way* they wouldn't have something going on."

Well, that might be a good argument for RL, but this was a fictional
relationship that the writers very deliberately kept platonic. (We
don't speak of series from the sixth-season ender on.)  And it was a
*wonderful* relationship.  It was intimate, they cared for each other
very much--you could even go so far as to say that they *loved* each
other--but there was no sexual element, nor was there any "sexual
tension," as TV Guide and other journalists liked to say.  

Half the intrigue of the series was the dynamic between the two: they
were diametric opposites philosophically, but circumstances made it so
that they could trust only each other.  *Great* fictional device.  It
added an extremely human element to a show filled with inhuman
monsters and other terrors.

But there was still a percentage of people--it felt like the
majority--that wanted them to "get together" because it would be *so
cuuuute!*  Or they figured something was already going on.  Or that
something was simmering under the surface.  But it wasn't.  And it
bugged me no end because I was so afraid Chris Carter would give in to
them and change the dynamic, thereby ruining the show.  <sigh> He did.
When Scully's gratuitous baby turned out to be Mulder's (I think. I
stopped watching.) the show jumped the shark big time.  I'll never
forgive them for doing that.

Gah.

That's why I want to keep the Trio free from entanglements with each
other (or if they entangle, they disentangle rather quickly).  There's
a dearth of intimate, non-sexual relationships between people in
fiction.  As one who has had some wonderful, close, platonic
relationships with guys, I'd really like to see society pull its head
out and give these kinds of relationships more emphasis than the
romantic ones.  They're much healthier, they do less damage to the
individuals, and they leave room for the individuals to grow
separately or apart.

--Dicentra, who agrees with Tabouli about the miserable couples being
more eager to pair others off; of my married sibs, two are happy and
one is not--guess which one signed me up on a computer dating service
without my knowledge or permission?




From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Sat Jan 11 00:12:10 2003
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David <dfrankiswork@netscape.net>)
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 00:12:10 -0000
Subject: Reader rights (was Authorial Responsibilities)
In-Reply-To: <avnc50+uh2i@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <avnngq+835s@eGroups.com>

Elkins (that's *the* Elkins, children) wrote:

> In an open marketplace like the fanfic community, what precisely
> *are* reader rights, do you think?
> 
> I'm not trying to dismiss the entire idea, you understand.  I'm 
> just trying to get a handle on what you think that they are.
> 
To be honest, where fiction is concerned, I don't know.  I have 
observed the following assertions of rights:

in connection with JKR, that we the readers have a right to expect 
her to get on and finish the next book because 'it is the fans who 
have made her what she is'.  I do not support this view;

in connection with fanfic, the right to be able to judge it truly by 
its cover (NC-17, slash, and so forth).  I'm not sure what I think 
about this. (Leaving aside the question of the protection of 
children)   Certainly I feel with anything I *buy* I have some sort 
of right to expect what is in the package to correspond with the 
label.  That said, book covers are actually *proverbially* not a 
good guide.  For fanfic, although I am essentially a non-reader I 
think it seems in the interests of both authors and readers that the 
latter can rapidly identify instances of the types of fanfic they 
would like to read.  But rights?  I dunno;

in connection with HPFGU posts, a host of things.  The right not to 
have one's possibly expensive bandwidth cluttered by overlong 
quoting.  The right to read only good spelling and grammar.  The 
right to know what is FF:, TBAY:, etc.  The right to be free from 
the attentions of trolls, flamers, etc.  And so on.  I'm not going 
to comment on list policy issues, but I think it true that many of 
the rules we have can be seen as a result of compromise between 
reader rights ('I don't want to have to be subjected to that!') and 
poster rights ('This is a free country!  I can say what I like!'), 
and the resolution of policy issues a matter of finding the balance.

I only introduced the topic because I thought it was implied in the 
assertion:

> I actually think it rather cheeky for readers to try to dictate 
the content or direction of an author's work 

an assertion I agree with but thought wasn't really answering the 
original question about responsibilities.

A bit finicky of me really, but I thought I'd backtrack to a Nimbus-
type discussion question to which what you said might be a part of 
an answer.

David




From rvotaw at i-55.com  Sat Jan 11 01:12:59 2003
From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw)
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 19:12:59 -0600
Subject: CBBC poll
Message-ID: <00ca01c2b90e$9561f1e0$70a1cdd1@RVotaw>

CBBS Newsround is running a poll.  The question is which are you looking forward to more, Order of the Phoenix or the Return of the King movie.  Well that's a stupid question.  I mean, if you want to know what's going to happen that bad in LotR, go read the book.  OotP, now, that's another story!

http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/vote/votes/newsid_2620000/2620059.stm?dynamic_vote=ON#vote_2620059

Also, to whoever posted the Lord of the Peeps link, thanks, that was hilarious!

Richelle


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From john at queerasjohn.com  Sat Jan 11 01:22:39 2003
From: john at queerasjohn.com (Queer as John)
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 01:22:39 +0000
Subject: His Dark Male-to-Female?
In-Reply-To: <00ca01c2b90e$9561f1e0$70a1cdd1@RVotaw>
Message-ID: <BA45225F.5147%john@queerasjohn.com>

So, I've been listening to the terribly good BBC Radio Adaptation of the
first book of His Dark Materials, _Northern_Lights_ (US:
_The_Golden_Compass_). It's fantastic! Go listen!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/arts/hisdarkmaterials/index.shtml

Fans of the recent _Private_Lives_ revival with Alan Rickman and Lindsay
Duncan should note that Mrs Coulter is played by Emma Fielding.

*winces* Now for the embarrassing part. Anyone seen
_The_Adventures_of_Priscilla,_Queen_of_the_Desert_? Big silver/pink bus
travelling across Australia with two drag queens and a MTF transgendered
person played by Terence Stamp? "Bernadette Bassinger"? The one with the
immortal line "just what this country needs: a cock, in a frock, on a rock"?

He's playing Azriel. And all I can think about is Lord Azriel in those
fantastic costumes from the performance at the end of _Priscilla_. Here's a
clip.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/arts/hisdarkmaterials/ram/asriel_clip.ram

I am doomed.

--John

______________________________________

Queer as John || john at queerasjohn.com

AIM, YM & LJ @ QueerAsJohn || www.queerasjohn.com

"There's nowt as queer as folk."  --English proverb
______________________________________




From dradamsapple at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 11 05:16:06 2003
From: dradamsapple at yahoo.com (dradamsapple <dradamsapple@yahoo.com>)
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 05:16:06 -0000
Subject: I thought this was cute
In-Reply-To: <avmq45+glmf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <avo9am+nopc@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Kenneth M. Kuller 
<ken.kuller at v...>" <ken.kuller at v...> wrote:
> Lord of the Rings is definitely off-topic, so I thought I'd share 
> this tid-bit.  It appears that Frodo has failed in his mission:
> 
> ? http://www.pwasoh.com/phunies/bush/frodo_has_failed
> 
> 
>
Hey guys!!

And it gets better and better!!

Enjoy!!

Francesca




From dradamsapple at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 11 05:16:30 2003
From: dradamsapple at yahoo.com (dradamsapple <dradamsapple@yahoo.com>)
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 05:16:30 -0000
Subject: I thought this was cute
In-Reply-To: <avmq45+glmf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <avo9be+v11n@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Kenneth M. Kuller 
<ken.kuller at v...>" <ken.kuller at v...> wrote:
> Lord of the Rings is definitely off-topic, so I thought I'd share 
> this tid-bit.  It appears that Frodo has failed in his mission:
> 
> ? http://www.pwasoh.com/phunies/bush/frodo_has_failed
> 
> 
> 
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Rachel Bray <bray.262 at o...> 
> wrote:
> > http://www.lordofthepeeps.com/lotp/fotp.html
> > 
> > 
> > Some people have too much time on their hands.
> > 
> > Rachel Bray
> > The Ohio State University
> > Fees & Deposits
> > 
> > The light at the end of the tunnel may be an 
> > angry, flying Ford Anglia.




From dradamsapple at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 11 05:18:58 2003
From: dradamsapple at yahoo.com (dradamsapple <dradamsapple@yahoo.com>)
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 05:18:58 -0000
Subject: I thought this was cute
In-Reply-To: <avmq45+glmf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <avo9g2+2be7@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Kenneth M. Kuller 
<ken.kuller at v...>" <ken.kuller at v...> wrote:
> Lord of the Rings is definitely off-topic, so I thought I'd share 
> this tid-bit.  It appears that Frodo has failed in his mission:
> 
> ? http://www.pwasoh.com/phunies/bush/frodo_has_failed
> 
> 
> 

Err, sorry everyone,

I meant to send my last message to my sister-in-law, but I goofed!

I think I need to go to bed now . . . 

Anna . . .(aka, another name)




From skelkins at attbi.com  Sat Jan 11 11:53:59 2003
From: skelkins at attbi.com (ssk7882 <skelkins@attbi.com>)
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 11:53:59 -0000
Subject: Couplethinking
In-Reply-To: <avne0p+pehs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <avp0ko+flb3@eGroups.com>

Eileen:

> Elkins, you know that I am a pretty serious shipper. 

And yet, all the way back in April, you shuddered in horror at 
FORLORNBARTEMIUS!  Now, what was so terrible about FORLORNBARTEMIUS?  
And you didn't like any of the 'shippy Fourth Man variants, either.

So what gives with that?  Do you only enjoy *reciprocated* romantic 
fixations or something?

> I can't help it. The moment I see two people who might do 
> well together, I want to pair 'em up. 

Oh, dear.  Are we talking just fictional characters here, or does 
that carry over into RL as well?

> How this sits with the fact that I haven't the slightest desire to 
> pair myself up, I do not know. 

Schadenfreude?  ;-)

You know, I used to have this terrible reputation for breaking couples
up?  I had a reputation as the anti-Cupid.  But I didn't mean to!  
Honest!  I don't know how it would always happen.  I'd just be, you 
know, *talking* to someone, and then the next thing I knew, they'd 
be quitting their job, growing their hair out, and ditching their SO.

I believe that many people considered me to be a very bad influence.
Quite a contrast from high school, where I was, of course, the 
designated *good* influence.  

Or at least, so my friends' parents all *thought.*  

> Anyway, as you also know, I've also been reading Lewis's "The Four 
> Loves" recently, in relation to our Crouch discussions, and was 
> very struck by his introduction of Friendship, and how modern 
> society does not regard it as a real love. 

<Elkins hops happily on her hobby horse.>  

<(Yes.  She actually has an entire *stable* of them.)>

Yes!  That is one of my major beefs with modern society, actually.
It obsesses on eros, to the utter detriment of philos.

Friendship is exceptionally important to me.  Whenever I hear someone 
use that phrase "just friends," it makes me grind my molars.  And I
have very little patience with people who prioritize this week's
sack-hop over their oldest and closest friends.  Makes me downright
cranky, that does.

Dicey:
> There's a dearth of intimate, non-sexual relationships between 
> people in fiction. As one who has had some wonderful, close, 
> platonic relationships with guys, I'd really like to see society 
> pull its head out and give these kinds of relationships more 
> emphasis than the romantic ones.

Oh, ditto!  Ditto, ditto, ditto.  I was rather disappointed with
the romance plotline of GoF, honestly.  It was certainly enjoyable, 
and I thought that JKR handled it with a delightfully deft touch.  
But at the same time, I really had been enjoying the non-sexual yet 
intimate nature of the Trio's relationship.  I was sorry to see signs 
that might be changing.

Television, of course, is just the *worst* that way.  It does often 
seem that any TV series that runs for long enough will eventually 
turn *all* of the relationships between members of the opposite sex 
non-platonic.  Most annoying, that.  

It also makes me wonder what on earth is wrong with those TV people.  
They're a bit like fanfic characters that way, actually, aren't 
they?  Utterly hopeless.  All you have to do is lock them in a small 
enclosed space together, and there you go.  Instant sex.  ;-)

You know, I've been living in very close personal quarters with one 
of my housemates for 15 years now.  We even shared a studio apartment 
for a time: a single room.  One sofa bed.  (We didn't want to share 
the bed, so instead, we took turns with it, each of us alternating 
nights sleeping on the floor.)  And yet somehow, while we were 
technically sexually compatible, I suppose, amazingly enough, we 
never once ended up having sex with each other.  Imagine!

It always strikes me as just bizarre and unbelievable when TV 
characters can't even seem to get trapped in an elevator together 
for an hour or so without kissing.  It really does.  It's just
plain *odd,* IMO, and always makes me wonder if perhaps the water
supply in TV land has been doctored up with aphrodisiacs, instead of
flouride.  ;-)


I wrote:

> > I mean, for heaven's sake! Did Paul get *laid* on the Road To 
> > Damascus? 

Eileen asked:

> So that's your problem with LOLLIPOPS, is it?

Well, yes.  That is *precisely* my problem with LOLLIPOPS.  It's 
not really the idea of Snape having loved Lily that bothers me at
all, you know.  It's my feeling that such an emotional attachment, 
should it ever be set forth in canon, would almost certainly also 
be set forth as a driving cause of his turning away from the Death 
Eaters.  And I really do dislike that idea quite a bit.  

Sadly, I rather suspect that it is going to be canon eventually.

<clings to George for comfort, while she is still able>

But that brings us back to an earlier point of David's:

> > > There's also the tricky question of what you think is 'true' 
> > > or will happen versus what you want to be true - not that I've 
> > > come across anyone with beliefs that strongly contradict their 
> > > references (e.g. "I think canon is firmly R/H but I feel Harry 
> > > is the right person for Hermione").
 
> > Do you mean just when it comes to shipping, David? Or to 
> > speculations in general? 

> I meant primarily shipping, and then other issues that seem to 
> animate the fandom generally, such as redeemable Draco. 

Redeemable Draco?  Really?

That's odd, because Draco seems to me to be one of the subjects
on which people *most* frequently cite the discrepancy between 
how they read the character and how they suspect that JKR actually
intended them to be reading him.  I've always thought redeemable
Draco one of the topics about which that discrepancy is the most
often cited, actually.

I've also seen a number of rather pessimistic statements from
H/H shippers.  And of course, I myself desperately dislike
LOLLIPOPS, while still finding it exceptionally canonically
plausible.

And I think that Snape's task really *is* likely to turn out to
be the most boring and obvious one of going back to Voldemort, 
you know -- in spite of the fact that, as all obsessed fans know, 
this would really be a very foolish and nonsensical and unsatisfying 
thing for it to turn out to be.  ;-)


Elkins




From lupinesque at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 11 12:05:16 2003
From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z <lupinesque@yahoo.com>)
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 12:05:16 -0000
Subject: Couplethinking
In-Reply-To: <avlb5f+a8u5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <avp19s+40rp@eGroups.com>

The Elkins warned:

> Oh, I don't like that romantic paradigm.  No, sir.  I don't
> like it at all.

<follow many assertions with which I agree thoroughly>

And yet... and yet...

I am a romantic who firmly believes that a romantic relationship can 
be sustained as the central relationship in one's life, without 
surrendering one's integrity or falling into the traps of whininess, 
sullenness, possessiveness, etc. . . . at least, not too badly.

Various and sundry thoughts:

-Judging from statistics, most married couples do not actually have 
sex all that often.  It's a sexual relationship, but the sexual 
aspect is not all that dominant--certainly not to the extent that the 
Romantic Paradigm, with its dreams of happy spouses bringing one 
another breakfast in bed, followed by ecstatic sexual union and, 
later, a blissful walk through sun-dappled fields with their two 
perfectly-behaved children, suggests.  <braces for onslaught of "I'm 
happily married and have sex three times a day!" posts>

-Romantic relationships are not an outcome of simple addition, 
friendship + sex.  Being in love is a different element altogether.  
I agree that it has entirely too much primacy in our culture--but I 
don't think that is exactly the same thing as our obsession with sex.
 
> It enforces what has always struck me as a very bizarre and 
> artificial notion: namely, that the closest relationship in 
> ones life "ought" to have a sexual element.  If it does not, 
> then it is dismissed as "just" friendship.  
> 
> It also enforces the equally (to my mind) bizarre and artificial 
> notion that a sexual relationship "ought" to be deeply emotionally 
> and intellectually fulfilling.  

Does it have to be an "ought"?  And does it have to exclude flings 
and other fun but not deeply fulfilling (except physically) sexual 
encounters?  I would just say it is preferable--not morally, but 
personally.  Certainly if I'm going to be involved sexually with only 
one person (monogamy being another subject), I'd like the sex to be 
with someone I feel very emotionally and intellectually connected 
to.  Some would argue that it works better to get one's emotional and 
intellectual fulfillment one place, one's physical satisfaction 
elsewhere.

> It causes them start talking in the first person plural, as if 
> they have just been assimilated by some hive-minded alien species. 

LOL!  Now let me disconnect this cable from the mothership and see if 
I can speak my opinion.

Using "we" frequently because one is doing more things with another 
person instead of alone makes sense.  "We can't come, sorry, we're 
going out to dinner that night."

Using "we" for shared interests likewise makes sense.  "We love 
soccer."  "We vote Republican."

Using "we" when what one really means is "she" (or, let's be 
honest, "he"), now, *that* is a problem.  "We love soccer," says the 
woman chirpily, grimly recalling that 30-degree day she spent 
*sitting* *outdoors* because her dh loves soccer and wanted to go to 
a game and is impervious to cold besides.  She (who shall remain 
nameless) should be honest and say "He loves soccer."  And, by all 
means, accompany him to a game--he accompanies her to botanical 
gardens, doesn't he, even though they aren't particularly his thing?  
That's just being a friendly companion and enjoying one another's 
company even if one doesn't enthusiastically embrace the activity.  
But when one begins to pretend that one shares every last interest 
instead of just being a companion, I'd say couplethink has taken over.

> It causes them to become morose if they are not currently sexually 
> involved with anyone -- not because they are sexually frustrated,
> which at least would be comprehensible, but rather, because they 
> aren't a part of a *couple.*  

Yeah, you're certainly made to feel like persona non grata if you're 
single.  Now here's a thought:  maybe these morose people are not 
just buying into a myth, but are *lonely.*  In which case one might 
ask why we don't put a lot more energy into promoting *friendship.*

> It causes previously sensible individuals to start using phrases 
> like "soul mate."

Guilty.  I believe in soul mates.  Sorry.

> It causes people to believe that they can *change* each other.
> 
> Even worse, it causes people to believe that it is morally 
> acceptable, rather than downright wicked, for them to *try* 
> to change each other.
> 
> And even worse, it all too often causes people to *succeed* in 
> changing each other.  And never for the better.

Hm.  This makes being in a couple sound kind of like going to 
church.  And, you know, in some ways the two things are similar.

I go to church because I think I need to be changed.  I want to be 
changed.  I think the people and ideas and music there can change me 
in ways that I *should* be changed.  Sometimes they even succeed.  At 
the same time, I go church because it accepts me as I am.  You can 
call this a contradiction; I prefer to call it a paradox.  ;-)

My closest friends love me as I am.  They also know my foibles best.  
The one who actually has to live with me, it is true, occasionally 
gives in to the temptation to try to rid me of some of these 
foibles.  Fortunately, he's succeeded with some.  (With others, I 
tell him where to get off.  And with some others, he's been trying 
for 12 years without notable success.  You all don't know, because 
you only know me from written communication, that I am an inveterate 
interrupter.  I hope to be cured eventually.)

Amy Z





From tabouli at unite.com.au  Sat Jan 11 13:12:00 2003
From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 00:12:00 +1100
Subject: The four loves
Message-ID: <003e01c2b973$0801aba0$fe5132d2@price>

OK.  We have philos, the love of friendship.  We have eros, sexual love.  Erm, run the other two by me again?  They weren't love of country and love of God, were they?  I do have dim memories of the "loves" from childhood Sunday School classes, but I'm sure there were only three then.

For the record, I agree thoroughly with Elkins and Amy Z on society's obsession with eros to the detriment of philos.  And I'll go out on a limb and add that I think this obsession is a major contributer to the male suicide rate.  You see, another perennial media theme is that men are, first and foremost, sexual beings.

Now, OK, hormones are powerful things, especially when they're first starting to pump through the system.  However, there also seems to be this belief about that ANY very intimate relationship involving at least one man must therefore have a sexual element, whether realised or not.  If a man is very close to a woman, it can only because he has ulterior sexual motives about her.  If a man is very close to a man, the same is true, and therefore he must (gasp!) be gay.  And while society remains homophobic, this leaves a lot of men in a position where the only person they can safely be close to is, indeed, their female sexual partner.

It's very pervasive, this one.  All the jokes about the LOTR characters, for example.  (Sam loves Frodo so much there just *has* to be sex involved, right?)  Not that I don't find some of them funny, I just think they're a reflection of this eros obsession.

You get articles about research on this every now and then.  How men feel uncomfortable hugging male friends except in the most back-slappy, macho fashion.  How a much larger proportion of men completely fall apart when their marriages break up.  How men ring up their *ex-girlfriends* in crises because they are the only people they feel comfortable being vulnerable with.  I even read one particularly alarming one which said that women, living alone, typically have lots of both female and male guests over one at a time, whereas men were unlikely to have just one male guest over because they were afraid this would imply they were gay (unless they were, of course, but even then).

Very sad, I've always thought.  Which is one of the major reasons why I loathe homophobia.

Then there's the "sexual relationships are the aim of life and most exciting thing in it" message, which has eight year old girls in lipstick and crop tops.  Don't even get me started on that one.

Amy Z:
> Yeah, you're certainly made to feel like persona non grata if you're 
single. Now here's a thought: maybe these morose people are not 
just buying into a myth, but are *lonely.* In which case one might 
ask why we don't put a lot more energy into promoting *friendship.*<

I'm sure they *are* lonely.  But it takes *time* to build up and maintain the sort of mutual trust and respect and intimacy you need for a deep connection with another person.  I wonder if part of the problem is that most adults' lives just don't have the time for this level of contact with more than one new person (old friends are different - it's already been built, though maintenance can be tricky. That old catchcry: you spend too much time with your friends!  What about me?  I'm supposed to be your partner!)  At least not face to face...

Long live email and the telephone!

Tabouli.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From lupinesque at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 11 15:50:30 2003
From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z <lupinesque@yahoo.com>)
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 15:50:30 -0000
Subject: The four loves
In-Reply-To: <003e01c2b973$0801aba0$fe5132d2@price>
Message-ID: <avpeg6+lmbi@eGroups.com>

Tabouli wrote:

> OK.  We have philos, the love of friendship.  We have eros, sexual 
love.  Erm, run the other two by me again?  

Agape and storge, which correspond, IIRC, to love of God and love of 
a parent toward a child.

I agree that men suffer from having few approved forms of intimacy, 
but I'm not sure about the connection to the suicide rate.  By other 
measures, e.g. depression, women are worse off emotionally than men.  

> Then there's the "sexual relationships are the aim of life and most 
exciting thing in it" message, which has eight year old girls in 
lipstick and crop tops.  Don't even get me started on that one.

Oh, can't we, please?

>it takes *time* to build up and maintain the sort of mutual trust 
>and respect and intimacy you need for a deep connection with another 
>person.  I wonder if part of the problem is that most adults' lives 
>just don't have the time for this level of contact with more than 
>one new person 

Or we don't take the time.  

A sociological factor in the U.S. is that we are very mobile over a 
very wide stretch of continent.  Many Americans still live and die in 
a single small town, but millions of us pick up and go for education, 
work, or to marry someone from far away (since we meet them when we 
go thousands of miles for school or work).  Much has been written 
about how this may make us shy of creating deep friendships, 
community connections, etc.  I think to some extent it is true.  

Amy




From Malady579 at hotmail.com  Sat Jan 11 15:57:36 2003
From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody <Malady579@hotmail.com>)
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 15:57:36 -0000
Subject: The four loves
In-Reply-To: <003e01c2b973$0801aba0$fe5132d2@price>
Message-ID: <avpetg+49mj@eGroups.com>

Tabouli wrote:
> OK.  We have philos, the love of friendship.  We have eros, sexual
>love.  Erm, run the other two by me again?  They weren't love of
>country and love of God, were they?  I do have dim memories of the
>"loves" from childhood Sunday School classes, but I'm sure there were
>only three then.

One is - Agape.  A very deep love that I like to describe as the love
that would die for you.  A very intimate concept really.  In Bible
terms, it is the love of John 3:16 meaning the love that God has for
the cosmos.  Personally, I think that is where our culture gets
confused.  They think eros is agape.  That if agape exists eros must
too.  I greatly disagree mostly because the few people I do agape, I
would never eros.

Let me look up what "agape" meanings in Greek.  Hold on.  It says
here: Christian love.  Hmmm, I *guess* so.  The meaning of "aganetos"
means: beloved, dearest, only.  *That* is closer to what agape means
really.  Hmmm, seems my Greek professor was right in saying some
Greek/English dictionaries are bias.  Anyway...

I never learned of a four love, but I remember Elkins said it in one
of her Crouch posts.  Sorry Elkins - I should have paid more attention
and jotted it down *somewhere* but, I didn't.

These differences of loves do matter and are easily confused in modern
eye.  Go to John 21:15-19 in the Greek and the use of philo and agape
are *very* important in the text, but are lost in modern language.  It
is a shame, because the dialogue between Jesus and Peter are quite
important in the difference between those two words.  Seems also, even
Jesus recognized that agape could exist without eros, but Peter may
not have.

But, not wanting this to turn into a Sunday school lesson (I promise
mods), I just wanted to point out that even then, men were shy in
their true feelings and that the all encompassing English word "love"
is what messes people up.


Tabouli again:
>It's very pervasive, this one.  All the jokes about the LOTR
>characters, for example.  (Sam loves Frodo so much there just *has*
>to be sex involved, right?)  Not that I don't find some of them
>funny, I just think they're a reflection of this eros obsession.

I could not agree *more* Tabouli.  I am greatly, greatly disturbed by
the number of people that do not get that friendship.  They just
cannot imagine being that close to someone and not completely jumping
them.  It is sad.  For humanity and that confused person.  What a
lonely existence where one stops all friendship before they get good
because they cannot understand agape does not mean eros.  Nor do they
want to go on for fear someone else, who is just *observing* the
friendship, will confuse the agape for eros.

One of my roommates in college had a deep, deep best friend who
everyone confused.  They were inseparable even though they lived in
different cities.  They would talk every night for hours, send each
other presents, sleep in the same bed when she sent the night, blah
blah blah, the type of things "couple" do.  I understood that she just
loved her best friend "like a sister" (the way most describe best
friend agape love), but I found it extremely disappointing so many
others did not.

Everyone called her "gay" behind her back because they confused the
two of them and because they thought agape comes with eros.  To add to
the fun, my roommate did have a crush on a very cute guy, but everyone
thought that was a "cover", because she *must* truly love her girl
friend.  How very, very sad.

In the end, the others stayed confused because my roommate and her
best friend stayed intimate without being "intimate."  Even though the
others had this beautiful example of true agape love in front of them,
they never saw it for what it was.  They just thought them freaks.

Frankly, if that is true, then I would much prefer being thought a
freak and having agape, then being thought "normal" and stopping the
friendship all together.

I have had a friendship ruined myself in college because people
"advised" her to back away from me because we were getting too close.
 We were becoming too intimate for friendship so people would think we
were gay.  I was deeply crushed for obvious reason.  The very idea
that someone would think that baffled me.  She was a sister to me and
*we* knew that, but still the idea seems to be that close friendships
like that can only exist until you reach 12.  It makes *no* sense.
How sad is it that once we reach puberty, we must suspend our need for
intimacy to only be bestowed by the opposite sex.  That notion only
backs up the idea that eros equals agape, and that if agape exists
between two of the same sex, then eros must two.

Sorry - I don't want to open my old wounds here, but I do greatly
*hate* when people get agape and eros confused.  I hate it.  It
cheapens life.

So I have managed to reiterate everything that has been said here so
far - sorry.  <grin>  But I do agree.  Society, on a whole, is really
loosing out by confusing all this.

Agape does not mean eros.  Philo does not mean eros.  Eros does not
mean agape or philo.  Yet, when translated in to English, they all
mean love.  Yes, I think our culture would be confused.


Melody




From judyshapiro at directvinternet.com  Sat Jan 11 19:23:11 2003
From: judyshapiro at directvinternet.com (Judy <judyshapiro@directvinternet.com>)
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 19:23:11 -0000
Subject: Couplethinking
In-Reply-To: <avp0ko+flb3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <avpqv0+d0e9@eGroups.com>

<Judy peeks out from under her "winter mulch" of seed catalogs>

Melody said:
> Agape. A very deep love that I like to describe as the love that
would die for you.

Oh, now I have "I Vow to Thee, My Country" playing in my head.  As
sung by Charlotte Church.  "The love that asks no questions, the love
that stands the test!  That lays upon the altar the dearest and the
best!"  I actually like that song quite a bit, especially because of
the last two lines, "And her ways are ways of gentleness, and all her
paths are peace."  These lines are a translation of an important part
of the Jewish liturgy, which actually refers to the Torah (Jewish
bible), but which I associate with my mother.  

Elkins asked:
> Did Paul get *laid* on the Road To Damascus? 

Now, that's not a sentence one hears everyday, is it? 

It seems that several people here agree with at least some of Elkins'
charges against "couplethinking," namely, that it makes close
non-sexual relationships difficult and suspect, that it often results
in single people being excluded socially, that it put pressure on
single people to pair-up, and so forth.  What people here seem to
object to is what is known in sociology as "the privileging of sex." 
Essentially, the privileging of sex is the belief that sexual
relationships should be central to life.  This belief has the
corollary beliefs that anyone in a strongly emotional relationship
(other than with a blood relative) *must* be experiencing sexual
attraction, that a relationship doesn't "count" unless it is sexual,
than life without sex is incomplete, etc.  In other words, sex
occupies a privileged position in our society.  

I agree that this is a real problem.  What I see as the worst part of
"the privileging of sex" is that it leaves partnerless people in an
awful position.  I never really had a boyfriend until I met Tom (who
is now my husband) at the age of 24.  Before that, I felt socially
excluded a lot.  I remember some of my female friends saying that I
shouldn't worry so much about not having a boyfriend, and should just
concentrate on my (non-romantic) friendships.  But, when I'd respond
with "OK, good idea. So, do you want to go see a movie?" they would
invariably say "Sorry, I've got a date with my boyfriend."  Gah! 

I think sex is less "privileged" in many other societies.  For
example, there are plenty of societies where two women can be very
close emotionally, sleep in the same bed, etc., and no one thinks the
relationship is sexual.  In other societies, celibate roles such as
monk or nun are also far more prominent, too.  (In some societies,
such as pre-Soviet Mongolia, as many as one in three adults were in
celibate clergy roles, although it's an open question how many of them
avoided all forms of sexual activity.  These Mongolian celibate clergy
were Tibetan-style Buddhists. At least in Tibet itself, sex between
adult monks and boys was considered normal, so that may have been
going on in Mongolia, too.  Don't know what the situation was for
nuns.) 

By the way, I feel one of the worst things about "the privileging of
sex" in our society is that it somehow manages to put a huge amount of
pressure on people to pair up, but somehow manages to avoid pressuring
people to live up to their obligations to their sexual partners.  In
other words, a rich man (say, a politician) can dump the wife that
supported him (financially and emotionally) through the early stages
of his career as well as the children they had together, and still be
seen as socially appropriate because he's in a relationship, even
though it may now be with a woman young enough to be his daughter. 
His long suffering ex-wife, however, is seen as a failure, or even as
an immoral "single mother", because she is now alone.  This really
infuriates me.

Elkins also said:
>And I think that Snape's task really *is* likely to turn out to
> be the most boring and obvious one of going back to Voldemort

How can anything Snape does be obvious and boring?

-- Judy 
<goes back to debating the relative virtues of skirret and romanesco
broccoli>




From macloudt at yahoo.co.uk  Sat Jan 11 21:34:06 2003
From: macloudt at yahoo.co.uk (Mary Ann <macloudt@yahoo.co.uk>)
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 21:34:06 -0000
Subject: Birthday Greetings!
Message-ID: <avq2ke+7nq7@eGroups.com>

:::::hangs up some colourful balloons and places a big cake on the 
table:::::

It's birthday time again!  Today we wish Sylvia, aka Forest Nymph, a 
wonderful day.  Greetings can be sent to the List or to 
nuclearpink at yahoo.com

Have a great day, Sylvia, and have fun!

Mary Ann
(TBA)




From dicentra at xmission.com  Sat Jan 11 21:59:53 2003
From: dicentra at xmission.com (dicentra63 <dicentra@xmission.com>)
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 21:59:53 -0000
Subject: The four loves
In-Reply-To: <avpetg+49mj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <avq44p+gs10@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Melody <Malady579 at h...>"
<Malady579 at h...> wrote:

> Sorry - I don't want to open my old wounds here, but I do greatly
> *hate* when people get agape and eros confused.  I hate it.  It
> cheapens life.
> 
> Society, on a whole, is really loosing out by confusing all this.
> 
Well, we all seem to be in agreement on this.  So what do we do about
it?  We're an international community.  We can constitute a force to
be reckoned with, can't we?

How about we petition Hollywood to knock it off with the sexual
obsession and start showing some heavy-duty philos and agape among
characters that would otherwise be headed for the sheets?

--Dicey, who often proposes the impossible




From melclaros at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 11 22:17:20 2003
From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros <melclaros@yahoo.com>)
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 22:17:20 -0000
Subject: Couplethinking
In-Reply-To: <avn861+oem3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <avq55g+uq0a@eGroups.com>



To the absolutely PRICELESS question:
> > mean, for heaven's sake!  Did Paul get *laid* on the Road To 
> > Damascus? 
> 
Eileen asks,
> So that's your problem with LOLLIPOPS, is it?
> 

And I reply--while laughing:
It's as good a problem as any! I have a stack of problems with 
LOLLIPOPS myself, I plan to add this one right on the top!

Melpomene (Who is thinking of getting that above question framed)








From HebrideanBlack2002 at hotmail.com  Sat Jan 11 22:18:42 2003
From: HebrideanBlack2002 at hotmail.com (Wendy St. John)
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 22:18:42 +0000
Subject: The Four Loves
Message-ID: <F155rfA0gvVsJtmMxOp0001165a@hotmail.com>



Hello, Everyone!

I've been avidly following this discussion about Couplethinking and so forth 
started by Elkins. I've found it really fascinating, and it's given me lots 
to think about. I've decided not to actually join in, though, as I think any 
comment I tried to make would likely turn into one gigantic and long-winded 
whinge about how much I loathe the romantic paradigm while wanting so 
desperately to believe in it, and about the sad state of my own marriage. 
<ironic grin>

So. Instead, I'm just going to ask a question: Will someone with better 
knowledge of the Greek language than I have (which means probably everyone 
<g>) please post pronunciations for the Four Loves? Well, I can guess at a 
couple of them, but storge and agape have really left me wondering. :-)

Thanks!
Wendy
(Who really appreciated Cindy's comments about bangy!storge on the main 
list, and wants to say, "Me Too!" - I totally agree, not least of all 
because this is the one type of love with which I can most identify just now 
- the current "love" of my life is my 4-year-old son. And I just had the 
thought - regarding types of love - that, while parents are certainly 
expected to love their children, it's not necessarily seen as socially 
acceptable to admit to loving one's child more than one's mate. For that 
matter, I don't think my husband appreciates it, either).


_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE* 
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus




From Malady579 at hotmail.com  Sat Jan 11 23:24:20 2003
From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody <Malady579@hotmail.com>)
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 23:24:20 -0000
Subject: The Four Loves
In-Reply-To: <F155rfA0gvVsJtmMxOp0001165a@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <avq934+mcnv@eGroups.com>

Wendy asked:
> So. Instead, I'm just going to ask a question: Will someone with
> better knowledge of the Greek language than I have (which means
> probably everyone <g>) please post pronunciations for the Four
> Loves? Well, I can guess at a couple of them, but storge and agape
> have really left me wondering. :-)

Hmm, let me try to do this.
(I have a touch of a Southern accent so my pronuciation may be a bit
off.  I am the one, after all, that calls Sirius:cirrus.  But, I was
taught pronunciations in a Greek college course, so they probably are
correct.)

Philo - phee-lo (as in philosophy - love of wisdom)

eros - err-os (erotic)

agape- a-gaw-pe (funny, no English derivative comes to mind)

storge- storj  (like storage without the 'a')


On another note, after reading Cindy's TBAY, I began to realize I
*had* been a bit unfair in the assessment of agape and eros.  I
discredited a lot in fact.  I assumed only agape love would die for
someone.  That is, of course, wrong.  One can die for a friend just as
one dies for a son or daughter.  I guess, I was taught that philo and
storge loves shift into agape love at the point when you put their
life before your own.  From what I learned, agape was the pinnacle of
any type of love and not a side partner.  Is that in fact wrong?

A thought, would one die for eros though?  I distinguish eros as lust
really.  Maybe in a lusty fervor, one might die for eros, but I doubt
someone would offhand.  But then again, Henry the 8th changed the
whole of religion in England on eros really, so maybe death in the
name of eros is not too far off.


Melody




From ression at hotmail.com  Sun Jan 12 00:03:18 2003
From: ression at hotmail.com (ER <ression@hotmail.com>)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 00:03:18 -0000
Subject: Fanfics with slash & sex...I don't get it
In-Reply-To: <053b01c2b6eb$ce68a710$0301a8c0@Frodo>
Message-ID: <avqbc6+uv33@eGroups.com>

Just catching up with this thread ...

"bel" wrote -

>I'm also curious where you got the impression that I'm a guy. <grin> 
(At least, I THINK that was the implication in number 3 above.) 
Definitely female. Over 40, and happily accepting applications for 
romance from any males age 21-60. No age discrimination here. <VBG>

Hey, hope for us semi-oldies yet! Though I suspect the 61-year-olds 
are feeling a bit down right now ...



"Heiditandy" wrote - 

>Look, if we required warnings for books, so the reader didn't have 
to risk seeing anything upsetting, would we have this for Goblet of 
Fire?

>one scene takes place in graveyard, underage character is tied to 
tombstone and subjected to bloodletting,

Well, being tied to a gravestone is a whole lot better than being 
super-glued or stapled to a gravestone. And, as I'm sure we all know, 
the doctor always says "keep still and it won't hurt", so being 
immobile is probably a good thing in this case. If I'd been MC-ing 
the graveyard gig, I'd have used a Shatter Charm on his legs. That 
would slow the little blighter down and make wand-duelling scenarios 
a lot less likely. You can't fault JK's kindness.

>a spider is killed

A common bathroom scenario, despite earnest female entreaties for 
clemency. Would that it weren't, but they're the very devil to catch 
(spiders that is).

> four characters are made unconscious and tied to a rock under a lake

If one _has_ to be popped into a lake for an hour or so, being 
unconscious is a jolly good state to be in. And if they hadn't been 
tied to the rocks then, heavens, they might have gone a-bob-bob-
bobbing off to goodness knows where. Probably have bumped into the 
giant squid or something equally horrid. Again, you see, JK is being 
as merciful as possible.

>some alcoholic beverages mentioned and consumed (off page) by horses

As the saying goes, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make 
him drink. Little alternative therefore (coffee generally not 
considered suitable for temperamental quadrupeds)

What is this nonsense leading up to? My view is that one should warn 
about the things that are _likely_ to upset or offend the _majority_ 
and, rightly or wrongly, quite a lot of people get upset by 
descriptions of homosexual sex. Thus IMHO it makes sense for slash 
stories to carry a prominent warning, but "normal" stories need not.  
Under age-sex may offend, so it too should be pointed out. Pairings 
that parents would object to (teacher/pupil) should be trailed. Then 
those that want to read such stories can read them and those that 
don't can avoid them.

I'd also go further and say that FanFics should follow the spirit of 
the original story (it doesn't matter if it's not what would happen 
in real-life, the story is the thing). JK's books are designed to be 
read by children and I think the "violence" is pantomime stuff. Maybe 
upsetting to very young children, but otherwise just part of a fairly 
gentle story. Cedric was killed (very cleanly and painlessly as far 
as the reader is concerned), but big deal. Who cared about him? If JK 
had given (say) Ron his ticket to the next-great-adventure the story 
might be considered a little darker. But what did we know about 
Cedric? What little we did know was (I suspect) popped into GoF just 
to make him slightly less of a minor-character when he did get killed.

I suspect many parents would like their children to go to a school 
like Hogwarts. The pupils are all very well behaved (pranks and high-
spirits are not bad behaviour), they are polite to the teachers, flog 
dutifully through their homework (though it's obviously very 
interesting homework) and the teachers seem to take good care of 
their charges and push them academically. Even Snape tried his best 
to stop Harry falling off his broom (Snapettes may cheer now). Board 
and lodgings seem more than adequate. There doesn't seem to be any 
sustained bullying - such contretemps as we see are mainly one-on-one 
and not sustained or grinding like real bullying. It's all very 
pleasant and has a faint England-in-the-1950s feel to it. Just an 
intriguing bit of hokum (if that's the word I want), a little like 
the films of the 40s and 50s - total nonsense, but a good way to 
while away an hour or two. It's certainly got me hooked and I shall 
give a small cheer when Book-V turns up! 

Anyway, I think that HP FanFics that deviate markedly from this norm 
should also carry a warning - "this ain't what you think it's going 
to be"! I've no objection to people writing non-canon stuff, but I 
feel they ought to be polite enough to point it out. In this, I 
suspect, I side with Diana et al, though I'm not going to let counter-
practice stop me getting a good night's sleep :))


ER - who notes that people keep noting things after their signatures.





From saitaina at wizzards.net  Sun Jan 12 00:15:56 2003
From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina)
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 16:15:56 -0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Fanfics with slash & sex...I don't get it
References: <avqbc6+uv33@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <001901c2b9cf$c7af04a0$9fbaefd8@oemcomputer>

ER wrote:

<quite a lot of people get upset by
descriptions of homosexual sex. Thus IMHO it
makes sense for slash
stories to carry a prominent warning, but
"normal" stories need not.>

First of all, not all slash contain sex, as a
matter of example only ONE of mine (out of
twenty-six fics) contains any form of sex act
and the rating was warning enough in my
opinion.

Secondly, I am offended that you would
consider slash outside the norm.  For a great
many people heterosexual stories are outside
their normal view of things.  I believe that
any story, any relationship is "normal".
Especially considering the great variety of
HP stories around. And I'm not just talking
about slash/het pairings, I'm talking about
everything from Hermione and Harry to Hagrid
and the giant squid.

Third, why should slash carry warnings if het
does not?  I don't like to read about
Hermione getting it on with every male in
Hogwarts, yet I've accidentally stumbled upon
some.  Yes, stumbled, there was no warning
what so ever.  At least with my story's it's
pretty obvious it's slash if the summary says
"Draco and Harry are forced to break up.
Songfic" ("Written in the Stars",
AstroTower).  Granted a few of my stories
aren't so clear in summary, such as, "Neville
has become the wizzarding world's new hero,
but is he ready to face those that betrayed
him?" ("The End of the Beginning", Schnoogle)
but I do put the fact that it's slash
prominently in the author's note as well as
pairings.

Should not het authors have to do the same if
we slash authors do?

Saitaina
****
"God, that's right," Ron laughed, the idea
striking him as obscenely funny. "We're being
trained by Lord Voldemort!"

http://www.livejournal.com/users/saitaina

James: "Option One is that we go back into
the jail cell and pretend we have no idea how
the couch came to be lying in the hall when
he comes back."





From john at queerasjohn.com  Sun Jan 12 00:36:20 2003
From: john at queerasjohn.com (Queer as John)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 00:36:20 +0000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Fanfics with slash & sex...I don't get
	it
In-Reply-To: <avqbc6+uv33@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <BA466904.524E%john@queerasjohn.com>

ER <ression at hotmail.com> said:

> What is this nonsense leading up to? My view is that one should warn
> about the things that are _likely_ to upset or offend the _majority_
> and, rightly or wrongly, quite a lot of people get upset by
> descriptions of homosexual sex. Thus IMHO it makes sense for slash
> stories to carry a prominent warning, but "normal" stories need not.

ER, but I am incredibly offended by your statement and use of language.
(It's also exceedingly rude to refer to somebody else's point as "nonsense".
You may not understand the point, but in that case, ask for clarification
rather than attacking with vitriol.)

The reason I am offended is that the continuation of your argument (if not
your argument itself) is that if slash is not normal, gay people are
abnormal. Calling gay people "abnormal" or even "not normal" is personally
offensive to me and, I suspect, to many others, gay and non-gay, in this
community. I object to it in the strongest possible terms.

Even if your personal beliefs do not continue to that extent, your argument
appears to be that, rather than taking pride in our work, slash writers
should closet themselves behind warnings *purely* because the relationships
in their stories are between people of the same gender, as if reading about
gay couples in stories rated appropriately to their age will be somehow
damaging to children, or warp their minds, or (*gasp*) turn them gay. I will
*not* subsume to the homophobia and heterosexism which that reflects.

Think about what you are suggesting in another context: should AngieJ's
excellent _Paradise_ series have "Warning: inter-racial couple" or "Warning:
black character narrator" warnings? Of course not, we say. (Or, at least, I
hope we say.) How about Ron/Hermione fics ? should they contain "Warning:
pureblood/mudblood couple"  language? Again, of course not ? that is
ridiculous.

Just as there is no reason why Angelina's skin colour or Hermione's
wizarding heritage makes them inferior or subject to warning language, there
is no reason why sexual orientation of characters as I perceive them should
make them inferior or subject to warning language.

*That* was Heidi's point: that there are many things that people could
possibly find objectionable, both in life and in stories. She was attempting
to point out all the things that GoF could use warnings for. You may find it
ridiculous and "nonsense": I feel the same way about segregating stories
purely because of the genders involved in the relationships contained
therein.

I'll also reiterate my frustration with the fact that people (not just you,
ER) appear through their language to be implying that all slash involves gay
sex. It doesn't, any more than all fics with heterosexual pairings involves
straight sex.

> Anyway, I think that HP FanFics that deviate markedly from this norm
> should also carry a warning - "this ain't what you think it's going
> to be"!

 I *really* hope that you are not referring to slash when you say "deviate".
Because I really dislike it when people refer to my orientation as
"deviant".

--John
______________________________________

Queer as John || john at queerasjohn.com

AIM, YM & LJ @ QueerAsJohn || www.queerasjohn.com

"There's nowt as queer as folk."  --English proverb
______________________________________




From flourishnblotts at yahoo.com  Sun Jan 12 01:10:26 2003
From: flourishnblotts at yahoo.com (Madeline <flourishnblotts@yahoo.com>)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 01:10:26 -0000
Subject: Fanfics with slash & sex...I don't get it
In-Reply-To: <BA466904.524E%john@queerasjohn.com>
Message-ID: <avqfa2+dsgl@eGroups.com>

> The reason I am offended is that the continuation of your argument (if not
> your argument itself) is that if slash is not normal, gay people are
> abnormal. Calling gay people "abnormal" or even "not normal" is personally
> offensive to me and, I suspect, to many others, gay and non-gay, in this
> community. I object to it in the strongest possible terms.

Hear, hear, John! I'm definitely straight, and I took offense.

> > Anyway, I think that HP FanFics that deviate markedly from this norm
> > should also carry a warning - "this ain't what you think it's going
> > to be"!
> 
>  I *really* hope that you are not referring to slash when you say "deviate".
> Because I really dislike it when people refer to my orientation as
> "deviant".

I don't think she meant that necessarily - she used poor word choice, but I 
believe the intention was to say that since there is (and likely will be) no 
slash in JKR's canon, there should be warnings there. I do see where she's 
coming from on the canonical issue, and I agree that many authors choose to 
put slash warnings on their pieces in order to forewarn readers, and that this 
may be a good idea - but that's an author's choice, just as if Ebony wanted to 
put a warning about interracial marriage on TiP, that would be her choice. It's 
not okay to force an author to do this because you view their fic as deviant 
from some societal norm.

Just to make one thing clear: I do live in the US so maybe I'm not the best 
person to speak of this, but I'm the trio's age in book 5 (15). My friends have 
all sorts of sexual preferences - bi, straight, gay, lesbian. I even know 
someone who defines herself as pansexual - that is, she is attracted to 
androgyny more than anything. While JKR may leave this aspect of growing 
up out of the books, it's still there for any healthy teenager, and fic writers 
are perfectly justified in including it.

This may be a bad way to introduce myself - I'm Flourish, and I lurk a lot, both 
on HP4GU and here. :)




From the.gremlin at verizon.net  Sun Jan 12 02:59:21 2003
From: the.gremlin at verizon.net (the.gremlin at verizon.net)
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 20:59:21 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Fanfics with slash & sex...I don't get it
Message-ID: <20030112025921.NPDJ4558.pop018.verizon.net@[172.17.10.210]>

ahh, my first post on OTChatter. hi everyone ::waves as if on major caffeine high::

Saitaina wrote:
"Third, why should slash carry warnings if het does not?  I don't like to read aboutHermione getting it on with every male in Hogwarts, yet I've accidentally stumbled upon some.  Yes, stumbled, there was no warning what so ever.  <snip>

Should not het authors have to do the same if we slash authors do?"

I was (and still am, sort of) a fan of an anime series called Gundam Wing, which stars 5 15 year old boys, all orphans, with virtually no family, or no known contact with family, and no friends save for each other. Obviously, fan fic authors who wrote stories based on the series started up romantic attachments between the 4 boys.

Also, in anime fanfic, male homosexual relationships *w/o sex (and this refers anything that would lead to arousal)* were stated with a "shonen-ai" warning, which, translated into English, means "boy-love." Female homosexual relationships w/o sex were referred to as "shojo-ai", meanining "girl-love." Anything with sex in it was called a lemon. 

The summaries to these all had warnings, telling if it was shonen/shojo-ai (since there were about 4 lead female characters and 1 background), and what the pairing/s was/were.

I also used to read fanfics about my favorite band, some which were very sexual. 

In short, I think that anything with any sex in it, whether man and woman, man and man, man and tree, etc., should have a warning, and the pairing mentioned. For instance, if someone were to write a Harry/Draco slash fic, they should post the warning "Sexual situations mentioned in the story, Harry/Draco pairing." If the fic were a Ron/Hermione fic, than the same warning should be posted, but with "Ron/Hermione pairing." I can see no one being offended using that method, but unfortunately, this is not a perfect world, and we can not make fic authors follow this, or any method.

If the story just has one character lusting after another, then the pairing should just be mentioned.

'James: "Option One is that we go back into the jail cell and pretend we have no idea how the couch came to be lying in the hall when he comes back."'

I would very much like to know the situation surrounding that...that's a quote several of my friends would find funny.

-Acire, who has read enough slash fics to not be surprised by much...yet...



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From saitaina at wizzards.net  Sun Jan 12 03:07:43 2003
From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina)
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 19:07:43 -0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Fanfics with slash & sex...I don't get it
References: <20030112025921.NPDJ4558.pop018.verizon.net@[172.17.10.210]>
Message-ID: <000801c2b9e7$c7a72880$79b9efd8@oemcomputer>

Acire wrote:

<'James: "Option One is that we go back into
the jail cell and pretend we have no idea how
the couch came to be lying in the hall when
he comes back."'

I would very much like to know the situation
surrounding that...that's a quote several of
my friends would find funny.>

Read "No Higher Praise" on Fanfiction.net.
It's a James back from the dead story (my
secret vice) that is an incredible fic.

Saitaina
****
"God, that's right," Ron laughed, the idea
striking him as obscenely funny. "We're being
trained by Lord Voldemort!"

http://www.livejournal.com/users/saitaina

James: "Option One is that we go back into
the jail cell and pretend we have no idea how
the couch came to be lying in the hall when
he comes back."





From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Sun Jan 12 01:12:16 2003
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd <jkusalavagemd@yahoo.com>)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 01:12:16 -0000
Subject: Fanfics with slash & sex...I don't get it
In-Reply-To: <avqbc6+uv33@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <avqfdg+larl@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "ER <ression at h...>" 
<ression at h...> wrote:

I think that "queer as john" has missed some of the points you make 
in your post, and has done so with a soupcon of vitrio himself. 
Unfortunately, I am not facile enough with cutting pasting to include 
excerpts from "queer as john's" reply to your post.  If I 
misrepresent anything, I trust that it will be called to the 
attention of one and all.

In reading your post, I find two instances of the word "nonsense".  
Neither of those is an attack on slash.  The first is a 
characterization of your own argument in response to Heidi, a nice 
self-deprecatory touch which was totally wasted on some.  I repeat 
the excerpt below:
> 
> 
> 
> "Heiditandy" wrote - 
> 
> >Look, if we required warnings for books, so the reader didn't have 
> to risk seeing anything upsetting, would we have this for Goblet of 
> Fire?
> 
> >one scene takes place in graveyard, underage character is tied to 
> tombstone and subjected to bloodletting,
> 
> Well, being tied to a gravestone is a whole lot better than being 
> super-glued or stapled to a gravestone. And, as I'm sure we all 
know, 
> the doctor always says "keep still and it won't hurt", so being 
> immobile is probably a good thing in this case. If I'd been MC-ing 
> the graveyard gig, I'd have used a Shatter Charm on his legs. That 
> would slow the little blighter down and make wand-duelling 
scenarios 
> a lot less likely. You can't fault JK's kindness.
> 
> >a spider is killed
> 
> A common bathroom scenario, despite earnest female entreaties for 
> clemency. Would that it weren't, but they're the very devil to 
catch 
> (spiders that is).
> 
> > four characters are made unconscious and tied to a rock under a 
lake
> 
> If one _has_ to be popped into a lake for an hour or so, being 
> unconscious is a jolly good state to be in. And if they hadn't been 
> tied to the rocks then, heavens, they might have gone a-bob-bob-
> bobbing off to goodness knows where. Probably have bumped into the 
> giant squid or something equally horrid. Again, you see, JK is 
being 
> as merciful as possible.
> 
> >some alcoholic beverages mentioned and consumed (off page) by 
horses
> 
> As the saying goes, you can lead a horse to water but you can't 
make 
> him drink. Little alternative therefore (coffee generally not 
> considered suitable for temperamental quadrupeds)
> 
> What is this nonsense leading up to? 

As you can see, this refers to ER's comments.  The following portion 
of her argument state my opininion in a far more eloquent and 
compelling way than I was able to in my previous posts.  It is that 
the fanfics should follow the spirit of the original story (Thank 
you, ER!).  It is for this reason that slash should carry content 
labels.  Having read the original stories, one has certain 
expectation that deserve to be honored.  It is not an attack on the 
legitimacy of homosexuality to feel this way, or to state that 
opinion, nor does it make one a homophobe.  The out-of-proportion 
attack mode response leads this writer at least to say to 
himself "methinks the lady doth protest too much."

My view is that one should warn 
> about the things that are _likely_ to upset or offend the 
_majority_ 
> and, rightly or wrongly, quite a lot of people get upset by 
> descriptions of homosexual sex. Thus IMHO it makes sense for slash 
> stories to carry a prominent warning, but "normal" stories need 
not.  
> Under age-sex may offend, so it too should be pointed out. Pairings 
> that parents would object to (teacher/pupil) should be trailed. 
Then 
> those that want to read such stories can read them and those that 
> don't can avoid them.
> 
> I'd also go further and say that FanFics should follow the spirit 
of 
> the original story (it doesn't matter if it's not what would happen 
> in real-life, the story is the thing). JK's books are designed to 
be 
> read by children and I think the "violence" is pantomime stuff. 
Maybe 
> upsetting to very young children, but otherwise just part of a 
fairly 
> gentle story. Cedric was killed (very cleanly and painlessly as far 
> as the reader is concerned), but big deal. Who cared about him? If 
JK 
> had given (say) Ron his ticket to the next-great-adventure the 
story 
> might be considered a little darker. But what did we know about 
> Cedric? What little we did know was (I suspect) popped into GoF 
just 
> to make him slightly less of a minor-character when he did get 
killed.
>

The second instance of "nonsense" referred to the "Tom Brown's School 
Days" kind of antics that people imagine went on in an English public 
school.  I include this excerpt of ER's post below for your 
inspection.  Again, I cannot see how one can construe this as an 
attack on homosexuality, unless any comment not uttered by a gay 
person is autonmatically so construed.
 
> I suspect many parents would like their children to go to a school 
> like Hogwarts. The pupils are all very well behaved (pranks and 
high-
> spirits are not bad behaviour), they are polite to the teachers, 
flog 
> dutifully through their homework (though it's obviously very 
> interesting homework) and the teachers seem to take good care of 
> their charges and push them academically. Even Snape tried his best 
> to stop Harry falling off his broom (Snapettes may cheer now). 
Board 
> and lodgings seem more than adequate. There doesn't seem to be any 
> sustained bullying - such contretemps as we see are mainly one-on-
one 
> and not sustained or grinding like real bullying. It's all very 
> pleasant and has a faint England-in-the-1950s feel to it. Just an 
> intriguing bit of hokum (if that's the word I want), a little like 
> the films of the 40s and 50s - total nonsense, but a good way to 
> while away an hour or two. It's certainly got me hooked and I shall 
> give a small cheer when Book-V turns up! 
> 
> Anyway, I think that HP FanFics that deviate markedly from this 
norm 
> should also carry a warning - "this ain't what you think it's going 
> to be"! I've no objection to people writing non-canon stuff, but I 
> feel they ought to be polite enough to point it out. In this, I 
> suspect, I side with Diana et al, though I'm not going to let 
counter-
> practice stop me getting a good night's sleep :))
>

I think the above comment reinforces that this is by no means a 
crusade on ER's part, but rather her two knuts in what is supposed to 
be a civil discussion.

Haggridd
(Who has disabled his signature for the moment until ER comes up with 
one of hers.) 
> 
> ER - who notes that people keep noting things after their 
signatures.





From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Sun Jan 12 04:02:43 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve <bboy_mn@yahoo.com>)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 04:02:43 -0000
Subject: Where in the World is HOGWARTS?
Message-ID: <avqpd3+gd9f@eGroups.com>

Sadly I have more time than money, so with this great wealth of time,
and the fact that I have no life, I have found out (or so I say) where
Hogwarts is. (One of four places.)

To see the satellite images of the FOUR possible locations, go to this
link. (personal site, non-commerial)

http://www.homestead.com/BlueMoonMarket/Files/Hogwarts/hogwarts1.htm

[Alternative]

http://BlueMoonMarket.homestead.com/Files/Hogwarts/hogwarts1.htm

I was going to post the images here but they are about 100k each, and
I didn't know if that would be OK.
 

bboy_mn





From the.gremlin at verizon.net  Sun Jan 12 04:28:37 2003
From: the.gremlin at verizon.net (the.gremlin at verizon.net)
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 22:28:37 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Couplethinking
Message-ID: <20030112042838.ODSQ23484.out001.verizon.net@[192.168.129.213]>

Two posts in an hour! This may get long, BTW.

Elkins wrote:
"Friendship is exceptionally important to me.  Whenever I hear someone use that phrase "just friends," it makes me grind my molars.  And I have very little patience with people who prioritize this week's sack-hop over their oldest and closest friends.  Makes me downright cranky, that does."

My two best friends of 3 1/2 years (both female) are more important to me than my boyfriend of 3 years. I have stood my boyfriend up a few times to be with my friends. I should also mention that I am only 18 and I *will not* be married until I'm 25. That boyfriend proposes anytime before, I'm not accepting, and he knows this, too. 

Dicey wrote:
"There's a dearth of intimate, non-sexual relationships between people in fiction. As one who has had some wonderful, close, platonic relationships with guys, I'd really like to see society pull its head out and give these kinds of relationships more emphasis than the romantic ones."

I also have one guy friend, and I know several other guys. My guy friend is the ex-boyfriend of another friend of mine, and for awhile after she dumped him, he kept going on and on about how much he missed her. However, our friendship has not developed the closeness it could have because of my mother. I go someplace with him, alone, and she automatically assumes we are dating. I have no intention of ever dating this guy, yet I am uncomfortable alone with him, because I am afraid he might take any friendly action on my part as an attempt to "hit on him." 

Elkins wrote:
"Television, of course, is just the *worst* that way.  It does often seem that any TV series that runs for long enough will eventually turn *all* of the relationships between members of the opposite sex non-platonic.  Most annoying, that."

Someone (I forget who) mentioned the Mulder and Scully factor. I knew that a sexual relationship between them would ruin the show, and I stopped watching when it was clear that that was where the series was heading. In fact, my favorite episodes were when the characters appeared to have lives outside of work! For instance, I loved the one where Mulder's British ex-girlfriend showed up. 

Elkins again:
"You know, I've been living in very close personal quarters with one of my housemates for 15 years now.  We even shared a studio apartment for a time: a single room.  One sofa bed."

I have slept in a double bed with my two best girlfriends, and one of them left the bed only because she got sick in the middle of the night and didn't want to get us sick. I have also shared a double bed with the same girl (when she was well, of course), and actually, with 3 other girls, 2 at one end and 2 at the other. I went to an all-girls school where it was common to see two girls walking around holding hands. I walk around the same with my girlfriends. My friends have kissed each other on the check. I think it's wonderful that we have this close of a friendship, as I have had terrible friendships in the past.

My friends and I have even talked of sharing a studio and just throwing a futon in the middle of the floor.

Elkins again:
I mean, for heaven's sake! Did Paul get *laid* on the Road To Damascus?"

I read this line in someone else's post, without context, and I had no idea what you were talking about (I read all my e-mails backward). I got it when I read your full post, though. As a good Catholic girl (or supposed to be), I found this extremely funny, and I'd like to needlepoint this on a pillow (like the person who said they'd frame it).

Elkins:
"It's  not really the idea of Snape having loved Lily that bothers me at all, you know."

I hate LOLLIPOPS. Despise it. Sure, I'm always against Lily and James being the perfect saints everyone seems to think they were, but I don't think they, specifically Lily, were *that* imperfect. It just doesn't work, from where I'm looking at it.

Elkins again (well, I *am* responding to *her* post):
"It's my feeling that such an emotional attachment, should it ever be set forth in canon, would almost certainly also be set forth as a driving cause of his turning away from the Death Eaters.  And I really do dislike that idea quite a bit."

I actually have my own "Snape's neice" theory that has no canon basis whatsoever, but I like it just the same. Which goes back to the couplethinking. I guess I don't like the idea that he found a significant other so important that he would want to change the way he lived his life (and basically his career) for her. However, I am fine with the fact that he would be willing to change his life for a parent/child relationship (because in my theory, Snape's neice is too old to be his child, but young enough to be a sister, perhaps). 

Elkins yet again:
"Sadly, I rather suspect that it is going to be canon eventually." 

There's still hope! Maybe he just didn't know Lily at *all*, so doesn't feel he's justified to criticize her in front of her son. Maybe he's just completely indifferent to her! 

And we have Elkins again:
"And I think that Snape's task really *is* likely to turn out to be the most boring and obvious one of going back to Voldemort, you know -- in spite of the fact that, as all obsessed fans know, this would really be a very foolish and nonsensical and unsatisfying thing for it to turn out to be.  ;-)"

For a while, I was sure that he was going to do something else, but going back to Voldemort just seems like the most logical thing to do. I mean, even Sirius gave Snape credit for being cunning enough to stay out of trouble. But I don't think it'll be boring or unsatisfying, because we may find out more about our beloved Snape. :D

-Acire, the most unromantic girl she knows, and who would like to hit her friends over the head with an anvil everytime they bemoan the fact that they don't have boyfriends, but she loves them too much to do that.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From judyshapiro at directvinternet.com  Sun Jan 12 04:53:49 2003
From: judyshapiro at directvinternet.com (Judy <judyshapiro@directvinternet.com>)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 04:53:49 -0000
Subject: Lollipops (was: Couplethinking)
In-Reply-To: <20030112042838.ODSQ23484.out001.verizon.net@[192.168.129.213]>
Message-ID: <avqsct+ih35@eGroups.com>

Discussing canon here is OK, isn't it?  Even if it is, if this turns
into a long discussion, we should probably head back to the main list.

Acire said:
> I hate LOLLIPOPS. Despise it. Sure, I'm always against Lily and
James being the perfect saints everyone seems to think they were, but
I don't think they, specifically Lily, were *that* imperfect. It just
doesn't work, from where I'm looking at it.<

I'm a big Lollipops supporter, but I don't think Lily was ever
actually involved with Snape.  My belief is that he "loved her from
afar" and probably worked hard to conceal his feelings.  In
particular, I think that if Sirius knew of Snape's feelings for Lily,
he would have said something about it at some point, although perhaps
to Harry instead of to Snape.   

As for whether Lollipops will be canon, Acire said:
> There's still hope! Maybe he just didn't know Lily at *all*, so
doesn't feel he's justified to criticize her in front of her son.
Maybe he's just completely indifferent to her! <

I suspect Snape had to know Lily; he was probably at Hogwarts when she
was Head Girl.  And, I have a hard time seeing him as indifferent to
James' wife/Harry's mother, considering his strong feelings about
those two. 

But of course, Jo always has a few surprises up her sleeve, so there
is *always* hope...

-- Judy




From the.gremlin at verizon.net  Sun Jan 12 04:58:42 2003
From: the.gremlin at verizon.net (the.gremlin at verizon.net)
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 22:58:42 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Decoupling
Message-ID: <20030112045842.OGGO23484.out001.verizon.net@[192.168.129.213]>

I have posted more times to OTChatter in the last 2-3 hours than I post at HP4GU in 2-3 weeks.

Tabouli:
"I have often pondered along similar lines.  The whole notion that one is somehow tragic and incomplete without a sexual partner gets my goat.  The well-meaning but infuriating types who tell you you will End Up Alone if you keep being So Fussy (the implication being that life without a sexual partner is not worth living so you should take whatever you can get and be grateful).  And, worse still, dig up the most frightful single people of the appropriate gender in their social circle and try to Set You Up.  Ugh!"

My mother constantly tells me that if I am not more romantic towards my boyfriend, I will end up alone and bitter (just like my father, who has his plenty of friends, and  his parents, and me...I want to be alone like my father...). I have friends who spend their entire lives ouside of school trying to attract guys so they'll have a boyrfriend! We are only 18! We have the rest of our lives to find mates, even if we wanted to! I can't stand the notion that to mean something, one has to have a significant other.

Taboulu:
"A (former) friend of mine whose comment after my stomach operation was 'Well look at you!  You nearly died, and what would you have had to show for it?'  At my incredulous protests ('Are you saying my life would have been worthless because I don't have a *boyfriend*??') she replied 'Well isn't that what life's about?  Finding love?'"

Is that why she isn't your friend? Lots of people had meaningful lives without marrying or having an SO. Nuns and priests currently come to mind, but other people as well. 

Tabouli:
"The fact of the matter is that I have, to date, *always* been happier when single than when in a sexual relationship. *Always*."

My boyfriend and I do not see or talk very often because we go to school and hour and a lot of traffic away from each other, I work, and he takes 100 units at a time (or at the least, 20). When people balk at the fact that I've been with him 3 years (and ask if we're going to get married), I tell them it has only felt like 1/2 because we rarely see each other. I feel quite comfortable not having to plan a time to see each other on weekends, and not having to plan my evening around his phone call (we call on schedules, like 2 times a week).

Tabouli:
The most irksome thing about it isn't the lack of boyfriend, it's people's refusal to believe that you can be happy without one.  They are convinced that you are just in denial, or putting a brave face on it, or playing the independent woman who needs no-one role and fooling no-one, <snip>

My father has always taught my sister and I not to leave ourselves in the position where we have to depend on a man to support us. I don't like it when my boyfriend walks ahead of me for the sole purpose of opening the door for me. I'm not made of glass! This doesn't mean that I'd put off marriage because I don't feel I need anyone. I would like someone who can, and will understand that I am not going to up and quit my job because he makes enough money to support the both of us. I am not planning on making too much money in my chosen career, and should I marry someone well-off, I wouldn't quit my job, because I love what I'm going to do (what I'm studying to be, actually). 

-Acire, who feels wierd posting this because she went off-topic, but then this *is* OTChatter.

                 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From annemehr at yahoo.com  Sun Jan 12 06:19:44 2003
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr <annemehr@yahoo.com>)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 06:19:44 -0000
Subject: The Four Loves
In-Reply-To: <avq934+mcnv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <avr1e0+5q3b@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Melody <Malady579 at h...>" 
<Malady579 at h...> wrote:

> On another note, after reading Cindy's TBAY, I began to realize I
> *had* been a bit unfair in the assessment of agape and eros.  I
> discredited a lot in fact.  I assumed only agape love would die for
> someone. 

I believe your sense of what the four loves are is close but can be 
defined a little more closely.  Look back at your previous post where 
you looked up agape -- it was defined as "Christian love."  So agape 
would be the love of God.  A person with agape would have love for God 
and, by extension, for his people.  Mother Theresa's love for the 
people of Calcutta is was agape love.  So is God's love for us.

>That is, of course, wrong.  One can die for a friend just 
as
> one dies for a son or daughter.  I guess, I was taught that philo 
and
> storge loves shift into agape love at the point when you put their
> life before your own.  From what I learned, agape was the pinnacle 
of
> any type of love and not a side partner.  Is that in fact wrong?

Well...I think rather that it is possible to love a friend with both 
philos and agape and your child with both storge and agape.  On the 
other hand, someone who does not believe in God could still die for 
someone out of philos or storge alone -- these loves will be enough 
motivation in themselves if they are strong enough.  And agape could 
be too weak to lead you to die for someone although strong enough to 
have you doing lesser things for them.  The four loves are distinct 
types of love.

> 
> A thought, would one die for eros though?  I distinguish eros as 
lust
> really.  Maybe in a lusty fervor, one might die for eros, but I 
doubt
> someone would offhand.  But then again, Henry the 8th changed the
> whole of religion in England on eros really, so maybe death in the
> name of eros is not too far off.

Well, here I will disagree.  Eros is a form of love.  Lust, on the 
other hand, is merely wanting sex and has nothing to do with love or 
actually caring for the other person.  True eros is *partly* expressed 
in sexual union as well as in other ways of caring, and you can have 
eros, philos and agape for the same person.  And, yes, I think someone 
could certainly die for someone out of eros alone.

The trouble with talking about eros or sexual love in our society is 
that many relationships are *called* love, that really have little to 
do with it.  It confuses things.  Think of Elkins' romantic paradigm 
-- you know you don't want *that,* but the things she's complaining 
about are not to do with love, they are something else -- 
possessiveness, clinginess, insecurity, or what have you.  What you 
really are hoping for is a truer eros.

You know, from what I have read of yours, I really think you would 
enjoy C.S. Lewis' "The Four Loves," if you haven't already read it 
(and maybe you are already considering it as someone - I forget who, 
sorry, - just recently mentioned it in this thread).

Anne






From tabouli at unite.com.au  Sun Jan 12 09:04:11 2003
From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 20:04:11 +1100
Subject: Of love and LOLLIPOPS
Message-ID: <002701c2ba19$a6a25380$082432d2@price>

(dusts off and dons Captain's hat, chuckling evilly)

The Elk(ins):
> It's not really the idea of Snape having loved Lily that bothers me at
all, you know. It's my feeling that such an emotional attachment, 
should it ever be set forth in canon, would almost certainly also 
be set forth as a driving cause of his turning away from the Death 
Eaters. And I really do dislike that idea quite a bit. 
>
>Sadly, I rather suspect that it is going to be canon eventually.
<clings to George for comfort, while she is still able>

Heh heh heh.  Resistance is useless.  Even those who detest the very idea of LOLLIPOPS have to admit it fits very neatly with the evidence (eyes Elkins suspiciously, searching for telltale pockets bulging with spray paint).  Liking it or not is not the issue here.  You can board the Good Ship while hating every timber, if you like.  I've never thought there was any *actual* sexual relationship between Snape and Lily.  Even I would find that a bit icky.  I've always held that Snape's love was unreciprocated.  Tortured.  Yearning.  I personally find that not icky at all.  I think it adds an interesting dimension to Snape which makes him make much more sense.  But that's just me.  I find the prospect of romance for one or more Trio members being woven into the future plot to be far, far more icky.  You know, Harry heroically rescuing Hermione or vice versa and them thereby discovering and declaring an undying love.  Now *that's* truly EWWW.

As for the driving force of Lurv, like it or not, it *does* happen, as well you anti-romantics know.  Eros is a powerful force.  People make all manner of drastic decisions as a result of their sexual relationships.  They leave their country and settle far away.  They cut off their families.  They radically change their lifestyles and opinions and appearance and religious affiliation and all manner of profound personal things.  They feel it is not merely feasible but mandatory to spend three weeks' wages on a circular piece of metal with a stone in it.  I don't think having a crisis of conscience and swapping sides because your political leader has ordered you to kill the woman you secretly loved in high school is beyond the bounds of plausibility at all.  The bounds of taste, of course, being rather more subjective.

(Hmmm.  How often do people do such radical things under the influence of one of the other three loves?  Any thoughts?)

I'm a diehard romantic myself, and have come to grief because of it many times.  It's not something that seems to be under my control.  All that attention and affection works on me like an addictive drug.  One taste and the drug possesses me, I crave more and more; cut off the supply and I go through agonies of withdrawal and temptation.  I've never managed to develop a controlled A&A habit, where I can limit my consumption to a healthy, balanced level and live a normal life.  Took me months of cold turkey to reach my present equilibrium, and one taste upsets it all again.  I'm a reformed junkie, I tell you!

As to why people do such radical things under the influence of Eros, I feel a few Freudian cliches coming on.  You know, the ol' people falling for someone who resembles one of their parents in some important way.  Perhaps the attraction of eros is linked to a sort of... infantilisation.  Longing for that all-consuming attention that you get (or didn't get) from your parents in an idealised childhood.  When you get lots of physical affection, and feel safe and protected and cared for, are the centre of attention, can be completely dependent on and trusting of someone, and can talk baby talk without nauseating onlookers because you *are* a baby.  A sexual relationship, especially in the honeymoon phase, can be a lot like that.  All the cuddling and feeding and gazing and cutesy talk and pretty little presents.  Very cosy.  Seldom enduring, in the cold hard light of adulthood, but nice while it lasts...

Tabouli.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From fluxed at earthlink.net  Sun Jan 12 09:26:16 2003
From: fluxed at earthlink.net (A. Vulgarweed)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 03:26:16 -0600
Subject: Writing, Right and responsibilities 
In-Reply-To: <1042286609.1136.43263.m12@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <l03130324ba46c98de276@[67.28.29.182]>

The Elkins, bringing together the Couplethink thread and the Writers'
Responsibilities thread:

>Perhaps.  I see both factors at work, and I tend to think of
>them as facets of the same phenomenon.  People do often seem to
>think that the right partner will "fix" them, and in fact, that's
>a staple of literature, isn't it?  It's everywhere, not just in
>romance fiction, but in all sorts of fiction.  I find it profoundly
>irritating, myself.  *Why* must novels about characters undergoing
>profound philosophical changes in their lives so often tie that into
>some romance plotline?  Why?  It so *annoys* me.  It really does.
>And it's so common, too!  In fact, there are some genres in which it
>seems to be utterly inescapable.  Has there ever been a Utopian novel
>(either positive or negative), in which the protagonist's break with
>his culture is not somehow connected to his sexual desire for some
>woman?

You see this one in Snapefic all the damn time. What I don't get is, why do
so many women always think the version of a man that comes after The Love
of a Good Woman(tm) is always an improvement on the original? (Are dogs an
improvement on wolves?)

David:

>> 1) I can see why pandering would usually lead to poor fiction, but
>> not why it is dishonest.

Well, there's dishonesty and dishonesty. I have written some fiction, both
fan- and otherwise, and I have found that characters will "talk" to you.
Gradually, the story that wants to be told will unfold in your head like a
movie, and all you have to do is write it down as well as possible (and
edit lots later). HOWEVER, if you try to make changes in that story to suit
your perception of your audience, or a moral standard that may work very
well in the real world but has nothing to do with the *story,* that is a
form of dishonesty _to the story_, which is where the writer's foremost
responsibility always lies.

The Elkins:

>I suppose that the point I was trying to make, buried under
>all that verbiage somewhere, was that I don't feel that the
>fact that some people really dislike, say, slash pairings ought
>to be considered any more weighty a concern for fanfic authors
>than the fact that other people really dislike romance plotlines,
>or sad endings, or OCs, or divided plotlines which jump back and
>forth between multiple POV characters (a la LotR), or whatever
>else.  Reader preferences vary a great deal, and I just don't
>think it feasible -- let alone desirable! -- for an author to
>try to take them all into consideration.

Bingo. Some readers hate slash. Some hate explicit sex. Some hate stories
about Ron because they think he's boring. All of these are "valid"
prejudices for any given reader. None has anything to do with what any
given _writer_ should or should not do.

The rights of the reader are, in the fanfic community, I agree, appropriate
ratings and warnings. The reader has a right to choose the types of stories
s/he likes best or doesn't like; the reader has a right to assume the
writer has tried to make each story as well-written as possible and to feel
cheated if something turns out to be sloppy crap riddled with mistakes and
misspellings and inconsistencies and plotholes. The reader usually has the
right (and some would say, responsibility) to review the story, whether the
review is positive or negative. The reader doesn't have the _right_ to be
entertained and/or moved, exactly, but s/he has the right to feel and
express disappointment if s/he isn't. The reader does not have the _right_
to not be offended, but s/he has the right to express it if s/he is. (And
those who object to a same-sex pairing in a story with gigantic flashing
red neon HERE BE SLASH notices all over it has the right to be shouted
down--this really does happen a lot.) I stress this: you DON'T have the
right not to be offended: that's the risk you take when reading or paying
attention to just about anything. I get offended all the time by the 6
o'clock news; I rant'n'rave'n'wave my arms around, and then I move on. It
happens I'm offended by syrupy-sexist romance cliches. Others are offended
by descriptions of teenagers having sex, others by graphic violence, others
by writers who never finish long serials. Except in the latter case, it
really can't be the writer's problem to anticipate and pre-smooth all
possible ruffled feathers.

The writer has responsibility to create a dream that can sustain immersion:
to keep characters recognizable, motivations plausible, settings accurate,
language readable, and story "true" to itself, within its own parameters.
Aside from accurate rating and summarizing and not cheating the reader,
honestly, I'd say that's about it.

I do professional nonfiction writing too: I'm a music critic for a
newspaper IRL. The ways of writing are very different. The impulses that
lead to fingers moving on the keys come from a very different place in the
brain, as do those of reading fiction and nonfiction. In fiction, ambiguity
can be used often to very great effect, and IME the very best fiction
writing comes when the author's "uberbrain" is temporarily drowned out by
the voices of the characters. I've written a handful of short fics in which
Snape, Hermione, and McGonagall are the main characters: there's a bit of
myself in all of them, and also bits of all of them which are *not* me at
all; they're _them_. My control over what they say and do feels to me MUCH
more limited than you would think. It's not like playing puppeteer: it's
like transcribing all the dialogue, action, color, setting, and movement of
a film already in progress that I walked into partway, in which sometimes I
am seeing things from the POV (not just visual, but also intellectual and
emotional) of each of the characters in turn, or sometimes watching in
third person. It feels _mysterious_ how this process works. I don't fully
understand it - I just do it. And yes, all of them have espoused positions
I don't necessarily share and done some things I don't necessarily endorse,
as well as some I DO approve - but I am NOT going to sit down with a
moralist and explain which is what, because it's irrelevent. (If a reader
wants to cheer this or be horrified by that, that's fine - that's part of
the emotional experience of reading.)


>"Certain types" is the operative term here, I think.  There are
>some kinds of constraints which I find hard to imagine *anyone*
>would find all that gratifying to write under.  "I only like this
>particular set of romantic pairings, so no one else in your story
>can be attracted to each other," for example, is unlikely to appeal
>much, unless the author happens to share the reader's particular
>preference.  "I don't like sad endings, so don't write one" is
>another.  "I can't stand romance subplots" would be a third.

Gah!

To me, it makes a BIG difference in who I believe my audience is. My
audience is not: "Anyone out there who might stumble on this fic somehow."
My audience is: "People who already like this particular type of story I'm
writing, or might like this one if they tried it." "My audience" is a
limited group, and it's self-selecting. My obligation is simply to give
them the best story of this type within my ability.

>In terms of the question of to what extent fanfic authors ought
>be concerned with the canonical author's feelings, the constraint
>would be: "Don't write anything you think that JKR wouldn't like
>if she read it."
>
>I cannot *imagine* writing comfortably under that constraint, not
>least of which because trying to second-guess what a complete
>stranger's emotional reaction to a piece of fiction might be is
>a totally hopeless endeavor.

Gack, me neither.
I *hope* JKR doesn't read too much fanfic, honestly. Not because it's bad
or shocking or would offend her, but because it can't be good for an author
who is still in the middle of the creative process herself to get too many
confusing different notions of her characters flashing back at her like
crazy funhouse mirrors. Overload! Overload!

In my other fandom, the original author has been dead for 30 years - alas,
no new installments of canon on the horizon, but also we don't have to
worry too much about his sensibilities (though we do worry out of love -
and I honestly hope that somehow he _can_ read the beautiful story someone
wrote for his birthday about him waking up in a pub in the company of his
most beloved characters, who toast and thank him).


>David:
>
>> And this type of writing has associated responsibilities you
>> haven't mentioned at all. The responsibility to be truthful. To
>> be unambiguous - ironically enough to ensure as far as possible
>> that what the reader interprets is *exactly* what you intend
>> (surely lawyers and list moderators must have to do this too)
>> and nothing else. . . .

In fiction, I fully expect that the reader's interpretation will NEVER be
*exactly* what I intended - in fact, urging a sort of sub-creativity of
interpretation on the reader's part is what makes literature truly great. I
don't believe that the writer's interpretation is irrelevant, but neither
is the only possible one, nor does it make other interpretations "wrong,"
nor can the writer's interpretation usually ever be completely known.
Literature is *designed* to take on an interpretational existence of its
own.

The Elkins:

>That's where you can get into the "promulgating poor values" problem,
>for example.  Fiction often puts loathsome opinions into the mouths
>of characters, or shows characters doing wicked things.  Sometimes
>people object to this on the grounds that it is insufficiently clear
>that the *author* actually condemns these attitudes or practices.
>This, they claim, makes the work of fiction "immoral."
>
>Now, as you know, I have no objection to criticizing books on such
>grounds, or to discussing the ramifications of the ambiguities
>inherent in their presentation.  I do, however, find it a bit odd
>when people seem to think that the *existence* of such ambiguities in
>the text is a Bad Thing.  I am very hard-pressed to think of an
>unambiguous work of fiction that I really consider all that *good.*

Hee. I have to admit, I don't understand the belief that literature - yes,
even children's literature- ought to be a very clear and unambiguous guide
to moral living and condemned if "good" and "bad" aren't simple and obvious
enough. Not only would such a story fail as _literature_, it would fail as
a representation of actual life, of any kind. Even stories with very
obvious "good" and "bad" guys, like Star Wars, LOTR, HP, have ambiguities -
flawed heroes who sometimes fail or make mistakes or are tempted,
occasionally sympathetic villains, characters in the grey zones, actions
that are not entirely simple "right" or "wrong" - and most literature is
less "clear" by far than that. Stiff allegories that lack these grey areas
and acknowledgements of imperfections just don't ring true for audiences on
any kind of human level, and I'd say are about as "dishonest" as it gets. I
wouldn't want to inflict that on children or anyone.

AV





From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Jan 12 09:33:07 2003
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston) <catlady@wicca.net>)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 09:33:07 -0000
Subject: Ceiling wax /  Madam(e) / fanfilm / couplethink
Message-ID: <avrcok+225g@eGroups.com>

Happy Birthday to Doreen of Iowa!

Happy Birthday to Carole, the Siriusgeologist!

Happy Birthday to Sylvia, the Forest Nymph!

Martin Miggs, the Mad Muggle wrote:

<<  but the reference to "sealing wax" is an echo (rip-off??) of a 
passage from the great Lewis Carroll, author of the Alice in 
Wonderland books. >>

I used Ask Jeeves to find the actual song lyrics, and 
http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/SongUnid/0269E9BB59A971FB48256A
220025645C says: "and brought him strings and sealing wax and other 
fancy stuff."  So I was so confused between the echo and the original 
that I quoted the wrong one, shoes and ships and ceiling wax. 

Matilda Trelawney wrote:

<< Madame in french, bascily means Mrs., so obviously Hooch is 
married to a man with the last name well, Hooch. >>

Well, even in French, adult women are called "Madame" rather than 
"Mademoiselle" when they're the boss, so even Madame Maxime is not 
necessarily married just because she isn't Mademoiselle. And Madam 
Hooch and Madam Rosmerta and Madam Malkin (yes, I checked the 
spelling) aren't in French. I feel confident that "Hooch" is her 
surname, but "Malkin" and "Rosmerta" are given names (Malkin is a 
diminutive of Molly which is short for Mary, and Rosmerta is the 
name of a Gaullish goddess, very appropriately meaning 'great 
provider'), so I suppose it's like Jimmy Carter's late mother being 
"Miss Lillian". 

I'm inclined to think that Madam Hooch's given name is Hieronyma, 
except I can't think how that name could have been made so unpleasant 
to her that she is so firmly trying to rid it from her life ... If 
she'd been named Horacia or Priscilla, such nicknames as Horrie, 
Prissy, and Silly might have had that effect...  

Anise Leinen wrote:

<< I finished a four minute fanfilm of my fanfic, Jewel of the 
Harem. >>

Congratulations! You have every right to be worn out, so get some 
rest!

Tabouli wrote:

<< People make all manner of drastic decisions as a result of their 
sexual relationships. They leave their country and settle far away. 
They cut off their families. They radically change their lifestyles 
and opinions and appearance and religious affiliation and all manner 
of profound personal things. ... (Hmmm. How often do people do such 
radical things under the influence of one of the other three loves? 
Any thoughts?) >>

I dunno if believing in a religion counts as the same as love of God, 
but certainly there are many examples of people doing all those 
things, and dying as martyrs as well, because of their religious 
fervor. Not as many as for luurrvve, but moving to a foreign country 
to marry someone who has a job pays better than moving to a foreign 
country to be a monk or nun with a vow of poverty... 

I can't think of people going quite *that* far for the sake of their 
children, altho' some do move to a foreign country because they think 
it's better for the children; a mother leaves her husband and her 
other children so she can live in a distant city with one child who 
requires a specialized hospital (or specialized athletic training for 
a future Olympian) there...  




From simon.hp at virgin.net  Sun Jan 12 10:16:04 2003
From: simon.hp at virgin.net (Simon Branford <simon.hp@virgin.net>)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 10:16:04 -0000
Subject: Fanfics with slash & sex...I don't get it
In-Reply-To: <avqfdg+larl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <avrf94+bhje@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Haggridd wrote:
> It is that 
> the fanfics should follow the spirit of the original story (Thank 
> you, ER!).  It is for this reason that slash should carry content 
> labels.  Having read the original stories, one has certain 
> expectation that deserve to be honored.  

So far in the story we have seen couples kissing (and only a few of 
those). This implies that any fic containing more than this should 
include a suitable warning, because it is not following 'the spirit 
of the original story'. Whether or not a rating of R or NC17 
constitutes such a warning is up for discussion, but not terribly 
important.

I get the impression, Haggridd, that you believe the original stories 
to contain nothing homosexual (whether same sex couples kissing, 
showing feelings towards each other or more). I also know that other 
feel similarly. However there is a significant group of people who 
would (and do) disagree with this view.

In GoF (Yule Ball chapter) we see Sinistra and Vector dancing 
together. Quite a few people believe that this shows a happily 
attached lesbian couple dancing the night away with their students.

Others believe that some of Harry's comments and actions point toward 
him showing homosexual feelings towards others, usually Draco or Ron.

Flourish has already given her view on teens sexual preferences. My 
only addition to that would be that the teenage years are seen by 
many as the time when an individual gets the chance to work out who 
they are. In essence the chance for the person to become an 
individual. For many a large part of this is the question of sexual 
orientation. Would it not be natural to see this?


So who is right on what the original series shows and what its spirit 
is?


Simon




From heidit at netbox.com  Sun Jan 12 10:27:20 2003
From: heidit at netbox.com (heiditandy)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 05:27:20 -0500
Subject: Fics with slash, children's books, the purpose of my schpiel on warnings (in other words, multiple responses)
In-Reply-To: <20030112024016.16169.qmail@web13508.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <00d001c2ba25$30ac26e0$0301a8c0@Frodo>

ER wrote:
> JK's books are designed to be read by children and I
think 
> the "violence" is pantomime stuff. Maybe 
> upsetting to very young children, but otherwise just part of a fairly 
> gentle story. Cedric was killed (very cleanly and painlessly as far 
> as the reader is concerned), but big deal. Who cared about him?


Really? Wow, then you've got a very different take on this than JKR! On
a lot of issues!

<<I feel that the ending of Book Four is frightening. But there are
reasons for that. It was not done for pure pleasure of thinking I was
frightening people. I was dealing with an evil character and there's a
moral obligation, I feel, to show what that means. I don't see (Books)
Five, Six and Seven as, you know, that I have to up the stakes with
every book at all. (Book Four) was a pivotal moment at the heart of the
series. I wouldn't necessarily say that Five is darker, but I can't say
that there's isn't more dark stuff coming because I know that there is.
>>(http://www.oregonlive.com/books/index.ssf?/books/00/10/al_11browl22.f
rame)

On Cedric: 

 I cried during the writing of that one [Book Four] for the first time
ever. I cried doing the actual writing of it. It really upset me. 

E: It opens with a murder and then there's one at the end, which I won't
say who it is. And you cried then? 

JK: Yeah. 

(http://www.cbc.ca/programs/sites/hottype_rowlingcomplete.html)
Now, I admit that it's vague as to whether she cried when writing about
Frank or Cedric, but really - which do you think it was? Or do you think
she was lying?

Clearly, she cared about him. I was so hit out of the blue by it when I
read that part that I didn't cry, myself, but I did when he asked Harry
to bring his body back to his parents. I wonder, how could anyone
(especially reading this after 9/11, in a universe JKR never could have
contemplated when she wrote this scene - when the whole issue of
returning the smallest bit of one of the victims to his or her loved
ones) not be touched by that?

And on the issue of whether they're children's books, among other
quotes, JKR has said... 
"I would think probably 8 or 9 is the youngest I would recommend as a
reading age for the books." (again,
http://www.oregonlive.com/books/index.ssf?/books/00/10/al_11browl22.fram
e)

In the book trade, fyi, books for 8 and 9 year olds are considered on
the edge of YA books - not children's books. And for comparison, Judy
Blume's books are also YA, as is the Adrien Mole series. Of course, I
read Forever when I was 11 and Less Than Zero at 15, and I'm sure many
of you know that Forever is somewhat graphic in its depictions of
boy-girl sexual activity; Less Than Zero isn't graphic in the boy-boy
scenes, but they're clear enough when you get to them - and IIRC, there
is *no* advance notice on the back of the book. 

More on the age issue, for those of you who still dismiss them as
children's books:
I never, at any point writing any of the books, worried whether children
would understand or whether they would find it funny or whether I would
frighten them too much, ever, because I wrote the books entirely for
myself. I just went where I wanted to go and hang the consequences
really.
(http://www.bbc.co.uk/arts/books/club/harrypotter/transcript.shtml,
August 1, 1999 (Hmmm. No wonder I didn't hear the interview when it was
originally done; I was in labor at the time.))

> I'd also go further and say that FanFics should follow the spirit of 
> the original story (it doesn't matter if it's not what would happen 
> in real-life, the story is the thing). 

There are some wonderful stories that follow the spirit of JKR's novels.
How about Dreamwalk Blue, where Tom Riddle gets homicidal while at
school? It's totally canon based! It also contains both sexual activity
among students and some violence - but it's about Tom Riddle in his last
years at Hogwarts - could you actually walk into a story where the
summary indicates that and be surprised that he's Not Such A Nice Guy? 

The spirit of the story is that there is a lot of darkness in the
backstory - and a lot of dark things set to happen in the future books.
The spirit of the story contains sex and violence and lewd jokes and
causes people to muse on the main list about exactly how giants and
wizards can physically get together. If you feel that fanfics should
follow the spirit of the original story, please recognize that such
spirit is a little more multilayered than you seem to be giving it
credit for - of course, if I'm misreading you, then I apologize, and ask
you to please explain it a bit more clearly. 




Acire (Welcome!) wrote: 

> Also, in anime fanfic, male homosexual relationships *w/o sex 
> (and this refers anything that would lead to arousal)* were 
> stated with a "shonen-ai" warning, which, translated into 
> English, means "boy-love." Female homosexual relationships 
> w/o sex were referred to as "shojo-ai", meanining 
> "girl-love." Anything with sex in it was called a lemon. 

I find this interesting as a glimpse into another fandom (although I
must point out that most of the HP fanficcers when the fandom was just
getting started (about 3ish years ago) had never done fanfic in any
other fandom before, and had no idea what the conventions and stylings
from other fandoms were) but I'm a bit confused about something - what
is "anything that would lead to arousal"? Is it feelings generated in
the reader? In the characters? It's an interesting gague, and I can
certainly think of fics where it would be relevant, but...

Either of those leave a pretty large gap, where things like George's
characterisation in Trouble in Paradise, or Justin in Paradigm of
Uncertainty (PoU, as separated from HWATF), or Ben & Gareth in Draco
Sinister, or Remus and Sirius in After the End are not shown in any way
that could reasonably be expected to cause arousal in any reader - and
they're not in any situations that show arousal either. They're
characters, they have roles in the plot, and they happen to be gay or
bi. Where's the issue in something like that, and how would a warning be
beneficial to anyone but a homophobe? 

To be honest, I don't care much about benefiting homophobes. 

I don't see this as any different than JKR's seemingly deliberate
nonindication of the gender of Professor Sinistra (or, for that matter,
the genders of the couples in the bushes at the Yule Ball). 

However, I do note that on all the larger archives, all fics are
required to be rated. If you are reading something rated R in Astronomy
Tower, it's reasonable to assume that there will be some "fade to black"
or euphamism-described sexual activity in it. I guess what I don't
understand is why a summary shouldn't be sufficient. Why does a fic have
to say "warning"? It feels so *Danger Will Robinson* that it's a bit
ridiculous. 


ER also wrote:
> What is this nonsense leading up to? My view is that one should warn 
> about the things that are _likely_ to upset or offend the _majority_ 

Nonsense? It's a logical extension of the premise that one should warn
about things that are likely to upset or offend a number of people, if
not a full scale majority (and unlike you, I don't think that the
majority of people in the over-13 side of the HP fandom are offended by
the idea that people in the world are gay; some are, but I don't think
it's a full 51%.)

Oh, and a note to Haggridd, who wrote, "As you can see, this [use of the
word "nonsense"] refers to ER's comments."

No, it doesn't. It clearly refers to my "warning", which I admit is
overblown and ridiculous - I think that the idea of warning the reading
public about the contents of a story is not only antithetical to the
process of reading, where a little suspense and glimpses of the
unexpected are a natural and requisite part of the interpritation of
narrative and appreciation of suspense. But the point of why I provided
the warning has clearly been missed, so I'll spell it out again - If
warnings are required about things that might offend or upset, then
those warnings would be required for GoF. They would be. Point out
something in that warning that would upset nobody, and I'll delete it -
but I don't think that anything in there would upset *nobody*. 

Novels don't require warnings. They don't require ratings, either, so I
admit that my parallel falls down here, but HP fanficcers are working
within a literature-generated, novel-based medium, and are creating
literary works as well (at least, the good ones are - the bad ones write
in netspeak and have Hermione hoping that Krum becomes a sk8tr boi).
We're operating within a literature-based construct and it's only
natural, expected and reasonable for us to adopt and utilize conventions
from literarure - summaries are no different than what one finds on the
back or flyleaf of a book. But warnings? I haven't seen them in an
ordinary chain bookstore, and I go to them a lot. 

> Under age-sex may offend, so it too should be pointed out. 

But *why*? Why should fanficcers be held to a higher standard than JKR?
Of course, she hasn't actually said point blank that James and Lily had
sex when they were teenagers, but there is a very strong implication in
the books that they were married at 19. She never said *what* Molly and
Arthur were doing when they were sneaking out at night, and we have no
idea if the kids in the bushes were talking, snogging, or doing
something more. 

Personally, I think that when a fic contains intercourse between kids
under 15, it should be mentioned in the summary, or obvious by the
rating (i.e. "Rated R for sexual content). But what if you have a
fourteen year old making a joke about "Uranus"? What if you have a story
where an 11 year old catches her 16-or-17 year old brother making out
with his girlfriend in an empty classroom? How do you warn for that,
without spoiling the story? 

As John said, interracial relationships may offend people too, just as
much as a story which contains 17 year olds having sex. Should a fic
have a warning about that? And if so, should we require JKR to put such
a warning on GoF, not just because of Fred & Angelina, but also because
of Cho and Cedric?

Now, let me sum up, so my points above are clear:
1. Ratings are good, ratings are important, ratings must be clearly
placed on the top of a story in its header such that on a glance, people
can see whether the rating for a fic is higher than they want to be
exposed to. 

2. If you don't want to read stories that have gay characters, have
someone read OoTP first and make sure there aren't any. And ignore the
subtext that a lot of very smart people see in PoA. If you don't want to
read fanfic that has gay characters, get recommendations and read only
things that people recommend to you. And avoid PoU, ASA, ATE, Malfoy,
P.I., TiP and Call of the Wild. And you should probably avoid my Surfeit
of Curses too, because just because I haven't said on "paper" that any
of the characters are gay doesn't mean you can presume that, say, one of
the editors at the Daily Prophet isn't. Now, if you want to avoid fics
where gay characters are involved in romantic relationships that include
on-"page" sexual situations (euphamistically described or otherwise),
you'd be fine with PoU, ASA, ATE, TiP, COTW, SoC, etc. And if that's the
case, then go forth and look through the fics listed in the various
pairing sections on FictionAlley's Sorting section - the Cruisin' forum.


3. If you want to avoid fics with student-teacher relationships, skip
the brilliant Rebecca Anderson's Darkness & Light trilogy, but you'll be
missing out on a wonderful characterisation of Snape. Too bad for you.
But it also means that you probably shouldn't read any Minerva/Albus
fics, either...


Heidi, who's read probably more fanfics than she should (ah, the task of
coding is never done!)




From nethilia at yahoo.com  Sun Jan 12 10:41:20 2003
From: nethilia at yahoo.com (Nethilia)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 02:41:20 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Lucky me! 
In-Reply-To: <1042286609.1136.43263.m12@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20030112104120.23309.qmail@web41103.mail.yahoo.com>

I went to a Value Village (it's like a goodwill) and,
amid the toys and dolls, found a complete boxed set of
Sorcerer's Stone on tape! It cost four dollars, which
cut heavy into my ten buck limit I had set that day,
but it was worth it! I think a got a good deal. ^^ 

--Neth, who has listened up to Chapter 3 

=====
http://www.cepheid.org/~marshmallow
Spenecial*com. Two girls. One Website. Total Chaos.

What kinda sacrifice involves pudding? ~ Andy, a close friend

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com



From pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no  Sun Jan 12 12:37:55 2003
From: pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no (pengolodh_sc <pengolodh_sc@yahoo.no>)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 12:37:55 -0000
Subject: Ceiling wax /  Madam(e) / fanfilm / couplethink
In-Reply-To: <avrcok+225g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <avrnj3+f07a@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter, the Catlady (Rita Prince Winston) wrote:
[snip]
> I'm inclined to think that Madam Hooch's given name is
> Hieronyma, except I can't think how that name could have been
> made so unpleasant to her that she is so firmly trying to rid
> it from her life ... If she'd been named Horacia or Priscilla,
> such nicknames as Horrie, Prissy, and Silly might have had that
> effect...  

[snip]

Madam Hooch is a member of the Hogwarts staff, as is Madam Pince, 
which goes a long way towards explaining these two being referred to 
by surnames rather than given names.  I suspect that any student 
addressing Madam Hooch or Madam Pince (or referring to her in 
presence of a teacher - particularly Professor Snape or Professor 
McGonagall) as Madam Horacia or Madam Priscilla or Madam Hieronyma, 
or whatever the given name is, would be in grave risk of detention, 
as there are rules for how you address a member of the staff.  Note 
that even Filch and Hagrid are referred to by surnames - Hagrid even 
by those close to him (such as Harry).  

Madam Malkin, on the other hand, runs a private business which does 
seem to be geared on giving the customer an experience of personal 
attention from the staff - and Madam Rosmerta runs a similar 
business.  For them, using the given names reinforces a feeling of 
informality and being at ease while in the pub or in the shop, which 
will be a benefit for their business.

Best regards
Christian stub?




From dianasdolls at yahoo.com  Sun Jan 12 12:40:34 2003
From: dianasdolls at yahoo.com (Diana <dianasdolls@yahoo.com>)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 12:40:34 -0000
Subject: Devaluing friendship & my ranting
Message-ID: <avrno2+u6g2@eGroups.com>

Elkins wrote):
It enforces what has always struck me as a very bizarre and
artificial notion: namely, that the closest relationship in
ones life "ought" to have a sexual element. If it does not,
then it is dismissed as "just" friendship. 
This is a big pet peeve for me, too.  It surfaced during my sojourn 
in
X-Files fandom, when people kept insisting that there was something
sexual going on between Mulder and Scully--or that there should be.  
"I mean, *look* at them," a friend of mine would say. "They're both
young and attractive, and they spend all that time together.  There's
no *way* they wouldn't have something going on."

Dicentra replied:
<Well, that might be a good argument for RL, but this was a fictional
relationship that the writers very deliberately kept platonic. (We
don't speak of series from the sixth-season ender on.)  And it was a
*wonderful* relationship.  It was intimate, they cared for each other
very much--you could even go so far as to say that they *loved* each
other--but there was no sexual element, nor was there any "sexual
tension," as TV Guide and other journalists liked to say. 

<snip great discussion of what was great about "The X-Files" main 
couple not be a "couple">
 
That's why I want to keep the Trio free from entanglements with each
other (or if they entangle, they disentangle rather quickly).  
There's a dearth of intimate, non-sexual relationships between 
people in fiction.  As one who has had some wonderful, close, 
platonic relationships with guys, I'd really like to see society 
pull its head out and give these kinds of relationships more 
emphasis than the romantic ones.  They're much healthier, they do 
less damage to the individuals, and they leave room for the 
individuals to grow separately or apart.>
 
Now me:

I agree with you about the whole "X-Files" relationship between 
Mulder and Scully - no sexual relationship, but a strong bond of 
friendship was part of the appeal of the show! 

I can extend this complaint by Elkins and Dicentra about how strong 
friendships are completely undervalued in today's world to include 
one of my complaints about the public perceptions of friendships 
between two men and between two women, whether fictional characters 
or real life people.  

In today's world, two men/women or boys/girls with a strong, 
unshakable friendship, such as Frodo and Sam in "The Lord of the 
Rings", Kirk and Spock in "Star Trek", Remus and Lupin in PoA, Ron 
and Harry in all the HP books and possibly Ginny and Hermione in 
future books, to name just a few are labelled as being either 
latently homosexual in nature ["Those characters just don't admit 
or 'know' they're gay, poor dears."] or as being full of what is 
more often then not, quite frankly, completely imagined or downright 
willfully misinterpreted 'clues' in the texts, performances or 
wardrobe ["When he was upset that Spock died, Kirk was really crying 
for his lover! Can't you see it?"]  

I can think of one show that was so sure it was going to arouse 
speculation of sex, lust and soulmate bonding between same-sex 
friends that they went with it and added hints, looks and dialogue 
to add fuel to the fire.  That show was "Xena, Warrior Princess".  
And they had fun with it, the clues they put in were intentional and 
for the benefit of their gay fans, but those fans who wished to 
ignore that aspect could do so if they so chose.  I enjoyed that 
show a great deal and thought the characters made a great couple, 
whether straight, bi or gay.  The friendship was strong and I picked 
up on the clues and saw the subtext, but I never assumed the subtext 
was there just because the characters were so close that they *must* 
be lesbians.     

Every reader brings their own personality with them into the books 
(s)he reads and movies and TV shows (s)he watches - we can't help 
it.  A gay person may prefer to think of characters they are 
attracted to as gay, whether or not that character's sexual 
perference has been defined.  A heterosexual person may prefer to 
think about that same character they are attracted to as staight, 
again, no matter how the character is sexually defined.  But, what 
bothers me is how frequently same sex friendships are treated as 
nothing more than fantasy; that they can't possibly exist because a 
friendship that strong must involve something sexual.  Many times I 
feel like all these great, heroic friendships in literature and 
elsewhere are being presented, by people who feel they must 
interpret these stories for us, as nothing more than very chaste, 
erotic odes to great homosexual romances, as if that is what *all* 
of them must be.  And that is quite wrong.  Not because I think 
homosexuality is wrong, but because the constant sexual pairing of 
close friends of the same sex denies the existence of true, heart-
felt, I'd-die-for-you, soul-baring, one-for-all-and-all-for-one 
friendships.

Close male friends face this dilemma more often than close female 
friends because two men who bond, cry together and face tough 
obstacles together are immediately going to be suspected of being 
gay and being "in-love" with each other.  And the speculation then 
goes on and on ad nauseum, frequently becoming such a beast that the 
heart of true friendship that lies within the story is eclipsed by 
snide remarks and snippy jokes about those "gay" characters 
masquerading as straight people.  This is a great disservice to 
everyone, whether gay or straight.  

All too often great friendships between heroic characters become 
fodder for gay-bashing or icons for gay true love, and they are 
neither.  The essence of the friendship and connection - one *not* 
based on sexual attraction, but soul-bonding friendship - between 
these characters gets lost in scuffles and name-callings.  And, most 
importantly, the lessons these stories might teach us about 
friendships and human bonding get lost as well.   

Why can't two people who share goals, like-minds or just like each 
other be *just* friends?  Why must close bonds between two people be 
automatically labelled as sexual in nature?  Why can't two 
characters, regardless of whether they are both straight, both gay, 
one straight and one gay share deep bonds of friendship without 
nearly every other person being so anxious to conclude that deep 
personal bonds with another person must mean they are having sex?

I'm reminded of "Anne of Green Gables" by Lucy Maud Montgomery.  
Anne, an orphan, finds her first true friend, Diana Barry, and 
happily realizes that she has made a 'bosom' friend.  If published 
in today's world, these books would have caused an uproar as 
misguided [and occasionally downright gestappo-like] 'family' 
organizations would have labelled Anne and Diana as "thinly-veiled 
lesbians" we must protect our children from.  This view is, to be 
quite frank, a load of cr*p.

Ron and Harry, as I see them, are like Anne Shirley and Diana Barry -
 bosom friends.  It's a shame that so many people would snigger over 
this term now.  :{  Where has the idea of friendship completely 
untainted by sex gone to?  I can't be alone in my lament for real 
friendship without all the imagined sex and lust forcibly injected 
into it, can I?

So, to finally sum up...true friendships are being disregarded in 
favor of the idea that lust and sex make up more of a person's 
personality and friendships, whether in the real world, in a book or 
on a screen.  If this view persists, then one day, no one will 
have 'friends'...just potential and current sexual partners that 
appeal to he/she in varying degrees of lust.  A good friend will 
just be someone they haven't slept with yet and a stranger will just 
be someone they haven't rated on their own personal "on-a-scale-of-
one-to-ten-how-much-would-i-want-to-sleep-with-this-person" rating.

Don't even get me started on how oversexualized the culture of the 
world, particularly the USA has become...

End of rant.

Diana




From lupinesque at yahoo.com  Sun Jan 12 12:51:24 2003
From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z <lupinesque@yahoo.com>)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 12:51:24 -0000
Subject: Fanfics with slash & sex...I don't get it
In-Reply-To: <avrf94+bhje@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <avrocc+huu1@eGroups.com>

To pour some nitpicking oil on troubled waters:

Simon wrote:

> In GoF (Yule Ball chapter) we see Sinistra and Vector dancing 
> together. 

No, we see Mad-Eye Moody and Sinistra dancing together.  The possible 
homosexuality involved derives from the fact that Prof. Sinistra's 
gender is as yet a mystery.  No lesbian couples have been so much as 
hinted at, though you have to wonder about Parvati and Lavender.  I 
mean, *lavender.*  Is that a wink wink nudge nudge or what?

Amy
tongue in cheek




From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Jan 12 13:36:36 2003
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston) <catlady@wicca.net>)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 13:36:36 -0000
Subject: Ceiling wax /  Madam(e) / fanfilm / couplethink
In-Reply-To: <avrnj3+f07a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <avrr14+108tt@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, <pengolodh_sc at y...> wrote:
> 
> Madam Hooch is a member of the Hogwarts staff, as is Madam Pince, 
> which goes a long way towards explaining these two being referred 
> to by surnames rather than given names.  I suspect that any student 
> addressing Madam Hooch or Madam Pince (or referring to her in 
> presence of a teacher - particularly Professor Snape or Professor 
> McGonagall) as Madam Horacia or Madam Priscilla or Madam Hieronyma, 
> or whatever the given name is, would be in grave risk of detention, 
> as there are rules for how you address a member of the staff.  

Yes, but we the readers know that Madam Pomfrey's given name is Poppy 
because we've overheard Dumbledore call her that and we know that 
Madam Pince's given name is Irma altho' I forget how we learned that. 
We know that Miss Trelawney's given name is Sybil at least when she 
comes downstairs to Christmas dinner: "Tripe, Sybil?" That we have 
never overheard another staff member call Hooch by her given name 
nor seen any documents with her full name on them *could* merely be 
because we see so little of her in canon, but to me it seems that she 
is deliberately avoiding her given name because she hates it.




From huntleyl at mssm.org  Sun Jan 12 14:04:55 2003
From: huntleyl at mssm.org (Laura Ingalls Huntley)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 09:04:55 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Fics with slash, children's books, the purpose of my schpiel on warnings (in other words, multiple responses)
In-Reply-To: <00d001c2ba25$30ac26e0$0301a8c0@Frodo>
Message-ID: <BNEPJHMDKNKONPANMBMGKEPDCAAA.huntleyl@mssm.org>

>3. If you want to avoid fics with student-teacher relationships, skip
>the brilliant Rebecca Anderson's Darkness & Light trilogy, but you'll
>be missing out on a wonderful characterisation of Snape. Too bad for
>you. But it also means that you probably shouldn't read any
>Minerva/Albus fics, either...


Alright, here we go.  I, for one, haven't weighed in on the slash
conversation at all because I feel that I don't have anything new to offer
it -- Homosexuality is natural, good, etc. etc. End of Story.  Why is this
not a settled issue already?

As for the question of student-teacher relationships (or, in a more general
sense, sexual/romantic relationships between children and adults) -- I, for
one, think adults who have sex with children are evil.  This is one of the
few things that I completely refuse to be open-minded about.  It's wrong.
Now, I don't agree with statutory rape laws, where an 18 year old can be
prosecuted for having sex with a 15 year old, and I don't know exactly where
you draw the line(s), but adults should not be sexually involved *in any
way* with children.  These are strong statements, I know...and on other
issues I would have peppered them with a liberal amount of generally's,
IMO's, etc.  However, I want people to be aware how strong I feel about this
subject.

That said, I have absolutely no problem with fanfiction that involves such
adult/child relationships.  I generally don't read them, but that's more
because most of them are about Snape, and I don't like *him*.  I don't feel
the need to be "protected" from them by warnings or labels, and I certainly
don't think the authors are doing anything wrong.  Fiction is fiction, kids,
whether it has "fan" attached to it or not.  In fiction, we have the
opportunity to explore different options, perspectives, etc.  It's really
sort of the point.

As a side note, I prefer that fanfiction is labeled with a rating, a
indication of the major pairings (H/H, H/R, S/L...or perhaps written out for
the uninitiated...Dumbledore/Minerva, etc.), and possibly a brief summary.
However, I would never go as far as to say that authors have an obligation
to follow this method.  I just feel that it makes wading through the gobs of
fanfiction much easier, if you know what sort of story you're looking for.
On the other hand, just picking something at random or trying a fic that you
wouldn't generally give a second glance can also be quite rewarding.

What I really wish is that there could be some way to rate for grammatical
errors, weak plots, etc. ^_~

Laura, who is sick of spending hours trying to find a worthwhile fic, only
to come up with something with the phrase "sk8ter boi" in it as well.




From simon.hp at virgin.net  Sun Jan 12 14:07:52 2003
From: simon.hp at virgin.net (Simon Branford <simon.hp@virgin.net>)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 14:07:52 -0000
Subject: Fanfics with slash & sex...I don't get it - getting far off the actual topic
In-Reply-To: <avrocc+huu1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <avrsro+sebb@eGroups.com>

Amy (or the annoying nitpicker) wrote:
> To pour some nitpicking oil on troubled waters:
> 
> Simon wrote:
> 
> > In GoF (Yule Ball chapter) we see Sinistra and Vector dancing 
> > together. 
> 
> No, we see Mad-Eye Moody and Sinistra dancing together.  The 
> possible homosexuality involved derives from the fact that Prof. 
> Sinistra's gender is as yet a mystery.  

Oh dear :( Really should have found my copy of GoF before writing, 
but it is sadly hidden behind my stack of cds and I did not want to 
disturb them just to check on which pairing it was. The possiblity 
for having a pile of cds to sort was too high!


> No lesbian couples have 
> been so much as hinted at, though you have to wonder about Parvati 
> and Lavender.  I mean, *lavender.*  Is that a wink wink nudge nudge 
> or what?

They do seem to spend a lot of time together... Though some people 
spend more time wondering what was/is going on between Ginny and 
Hermione for Ginny to know Hermione's Yule Ball plans...


> tongue in cheek

Indeed and, I find, it is often the best place for the tongue to be :P



Simon (using this as a welcome break to doing any actual work)




From dianasdolls at yahoo.com  Sun Jan 12 15:11:28 2003
From: dianasdolls at yahoo.com (Diana <dianasdolls@yahoo.com>)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 15:11:28 -0000
Subject: Fanfics, ratings & heated responses
Message-ID: <avs0j0+i62q@eGroups.com>

I'm not going to cut and paste all the responses flying back and 
forth between Haggrid, heiditandy, John and ER, as there is just too 
many at this point to keep straight.  I will summarize the points.

ER expressed her opinion that there should be sufficient warnings on 
fanfics to forewarn possible readers in case that fanfic contains 
something they wouldn't want to read, for whatever reason, with an 
emphasis on labelling slash fanfics, especially ones containing sex.

John, and then later Heidi responded that they felt ER was 
expressing possibly homophobic opinions about fanfic labelling.  

Haggrid then chimed in that she could see what ER was trying to say, 
even though her word choice may have been poor.

If I've mis-characterized your responses to each other, I apologize, 
I'm just trying to get to the root of this fierce debate, that is 
bordering on a mini-war of words.  Since I seem to have kicked off 
this scuffle by my original post stating that I just didn't 
understand and had no desire to read slash fanfics or fanfics with 
lots of sex, regardless of the pairings, I'll post again on this 
topic and on the other posts.  

First off, I would like to point out that not wanting to read about 
same-sex couples having sex does not make a person a homophobe.  I 
wouldn't want to read about my college astronomy professor getting 
it on with my milkman or John Rhys-Davies having an interlude with 
Mr. Whipple, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't enjoy reading about 
two gay characters I like reading about doing the deed.  The same 
with heterosexual characters, I definitely wouldn't want to read 
about my own parents having sex, or, for example, Margaret Thatcher 
having sex with George Bush, but that doesn't mean I dislike 
heterosexual pairings.  It just means that I prefer some pairings 
over other pairings, or I prefer to read about pairings that I find 
truly plausible, exciting or personally stimulating to me.  Or maybe 
I prefer not to read about sexual pairings at all for my own 
personal reasons.  

Regardless of what I choose to read, I should be able to have a 
rough idea of what to expect if choosing to read a work of amateur 
fiction about characters I've already got my mind set about.  I've 
read all four books and decided for myself what sexual orientation 
some the characters are and who they're attracted to, and I don't 
welcome someone barging into my vision and telling me I've got it 
all wrong. Or, worse, thrusting images into my mind of scenes I 
definitely don't want to be part of my Harry Potter experience. 

This is where rating fanfiction gets tricky.  But not that tricky.  
If I don't want to read stories with specific pairings, I should be 
able to look through the list and be able to identify pairings that 
I am not interested in.  Would you enjoy browsing through a book 
store if you had to look through a list of synopses of all the books 
in there, all mixed up to boot?  After you'd looked through a few 
pages of synopses with books on gardening, how to raise a troubled 
kid, the art of film noir, chinese fan-making techniques, a bio of a 
1950s movie star, collecting plates, the history of the lobster, 
understanding calculus, the latest romance novel, the repacked best-
selling sci-fi epic, how to grow mushrooms and so on you'd be pretty 
frustrated that it wasn't easier to get to exactly what you wanted 
to read and how to avoid what you were not interested in.

Realistically, most fanfic sites are not huge book stores with 
millions of dollars to spend on personel to sort and stock books 
into neat little categories.  For this reason, massive fanfic sites 
that have every single story sorted by all pairings contained within 
and then by how graphic the story as far as sex and violence will 
probably never actually exist.  It's a nice idea, but it ain't going 
to happen.  How to make it work, then?  Well, start by making the 
pairings and ratings clear BEFORE a synopsis is given.  Links to a 
synopsis can be anchored on the same page, just further down.  Why 
do I suggest this?  Because I visited the fictionalley website just 
a few days ago after all the heated discussion on this list.  While 
casually browsing the synopses, and still unfamiliar with the layout 
and the placement of warnings and pairings, I read some synopses 
[basiclly blurbs to try to get the browser to read the story] and 
winced at the unwanted images that sprang to mind when I read a few 
of them.  I will spare others the same fate by not quoting a couple 
I read there. 

As for the ratings for sexual and violent content, we are [almost] 
all adults on this list and can handle most things, even if the 
pairings or content isn't our usual preference, but children, who 
can and do access fanfic sites on the internet can't discern those 
differences as well and might think they can handle more than they 
really can or just don't know what the ratings mean.  
Clear, accurate, ratings would help solve this problem a great deal, 
assuming children didn't seek out the most explicitly rated stories 
just because of the "need to see what that stuff is about" factor.

My son is nine and he does not know what the term slash when applied 
to fiction means.  I have not had the opportunity or desire to 
explain it just yet.  He does know about heterosexual sex and 
homosexuality, but not every explicit detail - there's no need for 
that until he needs more information and asks for it, then I'll 
answer his questions.  He does not need to find a fanfic site and 
read all these synopses.  The ones he doesn't understand would 
puzzle him and the ones he does understand would considerably 
confuse him.  I don't think stumbling upon a slash fanfic, a non-
graphic one, would make him gay or mess him up for life - that's 
silly.  However, I don't want to get into a bunch of topics and 
explanations he's not ready yet to comprehend for many, many reasons.

As far as being an adult and stumbling across fanfiction I have no 
interest in, I am frustrated in what the fanfic sites lack - and 
that is comprehensive classification on the most basic level.  I 
mean basic sorting, then further sorting all the way down to fine 
tuned sorting of what the stories main pairings and sex/violence 
content really are.  If I don't want to read any slash pairings, but 
want an R-rated Harry/Hermione as grown-ups story, then I sould be 
able to find it easily by looking under "het or non-
slash", "Harry/Hermione", then "R-rated for sex and violence" or if 
I want to read chaste slash Minevera/Sprout pairings, then I should 
be able to look under "slash", "Minerva/Sprout", then "G rated, no 
sex, no violence" and then read through the synopses to pick a 
story.  No matter my preference, I could find what I wanted and 
avoid what I didn't want with ease.  Many more fanfics would be read 
with this sort of system.  

Unfortunately, too many people are quick to cry "discrimination" at 
the suggestion that fanfics should be clearly sorted into different 
ratings for sex and violence, couple pairings and slash or non-
slash, but sorting is not about discrimination.  It is about 
enabling those readers who want to find and read fanfics a chance to 
preserve their own views of the canon-based characters while adding 
to their images only what they want to add.  Fanfics with bad 
writing, too little/too much cursing or unwanted pairings or 
excessive/too little sex or whatever can bring unwanted images to 
mind. 

I prefer to read what I want and not read what doesn't interest me.  
I am not interested in reading slash pairings, no matter the rating 
of the story.  It doesn't fit in with my view of the sexual lives or 
complete lack thereof of these characters and I enjoy my personal 
image, yes, to the exclusion of all others, right now and don't want 
other people's interpretations or personal visions to barge in on my 
little world.   What is unjust is that because I state this, some 
people assume that I must be homophobic or a canon-idolizing 
nincompoop.  I wouldn't assume a gay person who doesn't want to read 
fanfic stories of deep, undying love between Ron and Hermione, with 
or without sexual content a heterophobe or a canon-hating 
nincompoop.  I wouldn't assume that someone who thinks Snape is a 
sexy tiger-in-the-sack in their own vision of the Pottervers is a 
dangerous lunatic [I'm talking about the character here, not Alan 
Rickman the actor]. Yes, those are all unkind words and that is name-
calling, but that is my point.  There shouldn't be name-calling over 
someone defending their right to maintain their own vision of the HP 
characters, free from taint, unwanted images, and bad fiction. :D  

Do I personally think all the HP characters are "good little 
heterosexuals", which is an attitude John and Heidi seem to be 
ascribing to anyone who isn't jumping with joy over all those slash 
fiction choices we're missing out on reading?  For the record, no.  
I think Barty Crouch Jr. is/was gay.  I think a few other characters 
could be either/or, and I'm undecided at the moment.  Do I think of 
all the HP characters in terms of whether they're gay or straight?  
It may surprise the self-appointed activists on the list, but I 
don't.  Many characters I do not think of their sexual orientation 
at all, because it is unimportant to my view of that character.  I 
don't care who that fictional character would hypothetically lust 
after as it is completely beside the point.  Introduing wild sexual 
exploits or sexual leanings of any kind at this point would 
interfere with my view of those characters so I don't go looking for 
fanfics that might influence my images.  No matter how firmly I can 
have imaged my characters, tainting from fanfics can happen.  Should 
everyone who thinks Barty Crouch Jr. was not gay think I'm attacking 
them?  Of course not.  Not all views will match.  Let's say I write 
a fanfic around a gay Barty Jr. with a Barty Jr./Volemort pairing 
and then tell off anyone who says the pairing doesn't interest them 
or even makes them ill, would I be wrong?  Yes, I would.  I can't 
force my own images onto others and I expect them to not do that to 
me.  

People are welcome to browse the fanfic sites and choose whatever 
they want to read, and then to read it in privacy.  I wouldn't dream 
of marching over to others' houses to turn off their computer on 
them because I want to control what they're reading - regardless if 
it is the smuttiest, most pornagraphic orgy of all the HP characters 
or the sweetest love story between two adult characters.  The fact I 
don't want to read those stories and can't see the appeal in them 
doesn't mean I'm recommending, let alone commanding, everyone else 
to stop reading them.  

In my original post, I may not have clearly expressed myself that 
others are free to write and read what they like, just I expect to 
do the same.  If I don't want to read it, I don't have to.  If I 
don't understand the appeal of some of it, then I just don't.  If it 
appeals to you, read away.  :) 

Diana -who is now going back to bed 

   









From clio44a at yahoo.com  Sun Jan 12 15:22:19 2003
From: clio44a at yahoo.com (clio44a <clio44a@yahoo.com>)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 15:22:19 -0000
Subject: Fanfics with slash & sex...I don't get it
In-Reply-To: <avrf94+bhje@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <avs17b+3sgk@eGroups.com>

Simon wrote:
>In GoF (Yule Ball chapter) we see Sinistra and Vector dancing 
together. Quite a few people believe that this shows a happily 
attached lesbian couple dancing the night away with their students.<

Really? In my book it is Moody and Sinistra dancing.

"Mad-Eye Moody was doing an extremely ungainly two-step with 
Professor Sinistra, who was nervously avoiding his wooden leg."

GoF, Chapter 23-The Yule Ball

As far as I know, you could only argue that Sinistra's gender is 
never given and so she might be male, which I doubt on the base of 
the female ending of the name Sinistra. Anyway, this would not be a 
pointer to a lesbian couple. I would be happy if you could point out 
if I have overlooked something in the text.

But this lesbian cue brings me to my favorite rant topic. Why is 
lesbian slash fanfic so extremely rare?

The most female characters in the books are so heavily 
underdeveloped, that there would be plenty of room to write them as 
lesbian. I, for one, could imagine that a Hooch/Skeeter pairing would 
be interesting. 
I would gladly read such a story, although I try to avoid slash fic. 
I'm simply not interested, because the vast majority has couples that 
are cliche: Draco/Harry, Black/Lupin, Snape/Harry. It's boring to 
read the same thing over and over. (I know there are exceptionally 
good stories with these pairings, but it gets old)

Same is true for some heterosexual couples: Harry/Ginny, 
Hermine/Snape for example. It's ok for a subplot, but I don't read 
stories about the relationship alone.


Simon wrote:
> I get the impression, Haggridd, that you believe the original 
stories 
to contain nothing homosexual (whether same sex couples kissing, 
showing feelings towards each other or more). <

If you say there are pointers to homosexuality in the stories, why 
not use the staffroom scene in PS/SS where Filch tends to Snape's 
Fluffy induced wounds as an example (Chapter 11). Why have I never 
seen a Filch/Snape pairing? Maybe putting the shackles in Filch's 
office to good use?

Does no one ever wonder how such a level of trust between a Death 
Eater and a Squib comes into existence?  

I can just hearing people going Euuugh! at the thought of 
Snape/Filch. Why? Why is it more eugh to see Snape/ Filch than to see 
again and again Draco fucking Harry senseless ? Because the boys are 
cute?


Personally I have the feeling (and I know I will be flamed for it) 
that many slash writers are women, who see slash as a conveniant way 
to picture their to favorite male characters all tender and sweet 
without having a woman interfering. A woman would be seen as a rival 
by the author. Often times stories like this don't care to explain 
about the emotions or reaction of society, they go straight (no pun 
intended) to kissing and bed scenes, which sometimes equals heavy 
porn.

That phenomenon has IMHO nothing to do with gay rights or real life. 
I know there are some people out there who make a point of writing 
slowly developing slash romances with conflicts and all, but you know 
that I'm not talking about those stories.


Anyway, I think that readers have a right to be warned if Harry and 
Draco are all of a sudden have decided to be gay in a fic. Same as I 
would like to be warned if a story takes place in an alternative 
universe or if Dumbledore was married to Poppy out of the blue. It is 
like stating the premises that fic is working under. 


Clio

 





From clio44a at yahoo.com  Sun Jan 12 15:29:46 2003
From: clio44a at yahoo.com (clio44a <clio44a@yahoo.com>)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 15:29:46 -0000
Subject: Fanfics with slash & sex...I don't get it
In-Reply-To: <avrocc+huu1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <avs1la+6caf@eGroups.com>

Amy just stated what I wanted to say.
Should read the other replies before I post myself. *blushes*

Sorry,

Clio  




From mb2910 at hotmail.com  Sun Jan 12 15:31:44 2003
From: mb2910 at hotmail.com (Meira B)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 17:31:44 +0200
Subject: Fanfics with slash & sex...I don't get it
Message-ID: <F210QIGxAJyifSNI8290001b9eb@hotmail.com>

"bel" wrote -

>I'm also curious where you got the impression that I'm a guy. <grin>
(At least, I THINK that was the implication in number 3 above.)
Definitely female. Over 40, and happily accepting applications for
romance from any males age 21-60. No age discrimination here. <VBG>

"ER" wrote:
Hey, hope for us semi-oldies yet! Though I suspect the 61-year-olds
are feeling a bit down right now ...

Me:
Just for the record, I'm 22 yo. female.

"Heiditandy" wrote -

>Look, if we required warnings for books, so the reader didn't have
to risk seeing anything upsetting, would we have this for Goblet of
Fire?

>one scene takes place in graveyard, underage character is tied to
tombstone and subjected to bloodletting,

ER wrote:
Well, being tied to a gravestone is a whole lot better than being
super-glued or stapled to a gravestone. And, as I'm sure we all know,
the doctor always says "keep still and it won't hurt", so being
immobile is probably a good thing in this case. If I'd been MC-ing
the graveyard gig, I'd have used a Shatter Charm on his legs. That
would slow the little blighter down and make wand-duelling scenarios
a lot less likely. You can't fault JK's kindness.

Me:
But it is pretty horrible being tied to a tombstone. And in *that* 
particular scenario... *shudders*

>a spider is killed

ER wrote:
A common bathroom scenario, despite earnest female entreaties for
clemency. Would that it weren't, but they're the very devil to catch
(spiders that is).

Me:
No they aren't. The scene where Fake!Moody shows the class the Unforgivable 
curses, he shows how easy it is to kill. (granted, you must have some 
determination, or deeper understanding of death or something for it to work, 
cos if not, the most you'll be likely to do is cause a nosebleed) And I'd 
say that for someone who had a deep fear of spiders, seeing them skidding 
across the table at you must be somewhat unsettling.


>four characters are made unconscious and tied to a rock under a lake

ER wrote:
If one _has_ to be popped into a lake for an hour or so, being
unconscious is a jolly good state to be in. And if they hadn't been
tied to the rocks then, heavens, they might have gone a-bob-bob-
bobbing off to goodness knows where. Probably have bumped into the
giant squid or something equally horrid. Again, you see, JK is being
as merciful as possible.

Me:
If JKR was trying to be as merciful as possible, she wouldn't have killed 
off Cedric or Frank (the gardener), she would have written PoA in such a 
manner that they managed to bring Peter to Hogwarts and Sirius' innocence 
would have been acknowledged, the list runs on and on... She's just being 
realistic (as much as possible, taking into account the major theme of the 
books *g*).

>some alcoholic beverages mentioned and consumed (off page) by horses

WR wrote:
As the saying goes, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make
him drink. Little alternative therefore (coffee generally not
considered suitable for temperamental quadrupeds)

Me:
Well, the fumes of the Horses' concoction does manage to be hazardous when 
handling Blast-Ended Skrewts, because "they needed their wits about them" 
(don't remember if it's an exact quote or not, sorry)

ER wrote:
What is this nonsense leading up to?

Me:
IMO, this is leading up to making a point that every person might find 
something different to get offended by. Personally, I would be very offended 
if JKR would write the Slytherins (any of them) as smokers, or as addicted 
to drugs, or alcoholics. It just doesn't add up. Also, I'd be very offended 
if Millicent would turn up to be just another Crabbe and Goyle style bully. 
And another thing that would offend me is if Blaize turned out to be a girl. 
(there are many other things, but these are just my conceptions of the 
characters, and I would go on reading the series regardless, just cos I like 
it :)).

ER wrote:
My view is that one should warn about the things that are _likely_ to upset 
or offend the _majority_and, rightly or wrongly, quite a lot of people get 
upset by descriptions of homosexual sex. Thus IMHO it makes sense for slash 
stories to carry a prominent warning, but "normal" stories need not.

Me:
And what, pray, do you consider "normal"?
Most of the Slash stories I've read tactfully fade to black at crucial plot 
points, if you catch my drift. Sure, for the homophobes, such a warning 
would be suitable. And, as much as I enjoy a good slash fic, if I were in a 
mood to read a Het fic and would by accident open the link to a slash fic 
cos there are no warnings about the slashy contents, that would upset me a 
bit, but there *is* such a thing as a back button in most browsers... In 
order to never see any page ever again, all you have to do is just go to 
another site. Simple, huh?

ER:
Under age-sex may offend, so it too should be pointed out. Pairings
that parents would object to (teacher/pupil) should be trailed. Then
those that want to read such stories can read them and those that
don't can avoid them.

Me:
I agree. Warnings are in place, to avoid something that ickles you. Nothing 
wrong with that.

ER wrote:
I'd also go further and say that FanFics should follow the spirit of
the original story (it doesn't matter if it's not what would happen
in real-life, the story is the thing).

Me:
They were designed to be read by everyone, age notwithstanding.
A few weeks after GoF came out, I saw sitting in the back of the bus two 
soldiers (I'm in Israel), about 20 years old, methinks, reading the book. I 
happened to see them, and my heart filled with a warm, fuzzy feeling. If any 
adult asks my reccomendation of which book to read, I always point them to 
Harry Potter.

ER wrote:
JK's books are designed to be read by children and I think the "violence" is 
pantomime stuff.

Me:
No it isn't! The violence there is very real. People do get hurt, even the 
Good Guys, and they get hurt badly, and some of them even die. And the bad 
guys sometimes manage to get away without being properly punished. I'm sure 
that by the end of book 7, the good guys will have won, but for now, Peter 
walks away unscathed, to name one example.

ER wrote:
Maybe upsetting to very young children, but otherwise just part of a fairly 
gentle story. Cedric was killed (very cleanly and painlessly as far as the 
reader is concerned), but big deal. Who cared about him? If JK had given 
(say) Ron his ticket to the next-great-adventure the story
might be considered a little darker. But what did we know about
Cedric? What little we did know was (I suspect) popped into GoF just
to make him slightly less of a minor-character when he did get killed.

Me:
*gags, spluttering her tea all over the keyboard*
Excuse me??
"big deal"? "Who cared about him?"???
Maybe the "little we did know was ... popped into GoF just to make him 
slightly less of a minor-character when he did get killed" but he *did* get 
killed. And he was harmless. And his death was pointless and stupid. And 
ruthless.
Tell me, ER, when you read about that high cold voice saying "kill the 
spare", didn't you feel the itsy-bitiest tiny bit of goosebumps and chills 
up your spine? I stared at that particular passage for who-knows-how-long 
before I managed to go on reading. And the suddenness is just... so sudden.
If you feel "big-deal" and "who cares about him" in regards to Cedric, how 
do you feel about the Riddle's Gardener, Frank? was he insubstantial and 
meaningless too?

ER wrote:
I suspect many parents would like their children to go to a school
like Hogwarts.

Me:
No argument here. Would love to send the kids, when I have'em, to Hogwarts 
:). Would have loved to go to such a school too.

ER wrote:
The pupils are all very well behaved (pranks and high-spirits are not bad 
behaviour), they are polite to the teachers, flog dutifully through their 
homework (though it's obviously very interesting homework)

Me:
Maybe except History of Magic ;).

ER wrote:
and the teachers seem to take good care of their charges and push them 
academically. Even Snape tried his best to stop Harry falling off his broom 
(Snapettes may cheer now).

Me:
That's because of the whole life-debt thing...

ER wrote:
Board and lodgings seem more than adequate.

Me:
I totally agree on this one. The kids are respected as individuals. They are 
not treated like kids, like "clean your room, brush your teeth" parent-y 
behavior.

ER wrote:
There doesn't seem to be any sustained bullying - such contretemps as we see 
are mainly one-on-one and not sustained or grinding like real bullying.

Me:
We have no way of knowing that. What about the Marauders tormenting Snape? 
or Draco and his cronies tormenting Neville?
And Myrtle being laughed at for her glasses? Even the teachers are tormented 
(remember Quirrel being chased by a couple of snowballs specially enchanted 
by our favorite twins?). And don't forget Harry in the muggle school, being 
chased and bullied by Dudley and his gang, and the other kids never wanting 
to befriend Harry because they were scared to Dudley, whom everyone knew 
hated Harry?
As someone who has had a personal acquaintance with bullying, I would have 
been very surprised if the school that JKR described would have had none of 
that. Kids can be very cruel, y'know...


ER:
<a bit of snipping>
It's certainly got me hooked and I shall give a small cheer when Book-V 
turns up!

Me:
Me too! ;).
and when CoS turns up in VCR, and when the PoA movie premiers...
*waves the Ralph Fiennes for Lupin flag*

ER wrote:
Anyway, I think that HP FanFics that deviate markedly from this norm
should also carry a warning - "this ain't what you think it's going
to be"!

Me:
Well, if a slash story would have that warning, well....:
Name of story:...
Name of author:...
rating:...
Disclaimers:...
Warning the first: This is a slash story....
Warning the second (as suggested by ER): "this ain't what you think it's 
going to be"
I don't think it would work, would it? It would confuzzle people greatly. So 
is this a slash story or isn't it?

ER wrote:
I've no objection to people writing non-canon stuff,

Me:
Neither do I *g*.

ER wrote:
but I feel they ought to be polite enough to point it out.

Me:
Well, just the fact that it's *fanfic* makes it non-canon, doesn't it? No 
one but JKR can write exactly what JKR has in mind. Everything else is just 
personal interpretation, even TCTMNBN.

ER wrote:
In this, I suspect, I side with Diana et al, though I'm not going to let 
counter-practice stop me getting a good night's sleep :))

Me:
I never lost a good night's sleep.
errrmmmm....
or rather, the nights' sleep that have been lost were due to staying up all 
night mesmerised, reading the fic till the wee hours of the night, cos I 
just *had* to figure out what happens next, and not because of how upsetting 
the fic was ;)

Meira (Who had a very funny dream concerning the last word of the 7th book, 
that JKR said was "scar". I kept reading and re-reading thos last few 
paragraphs, right now I don't remember much the words, but the one thing I 
*do* remember is the sense that I got that JKR has managed to pair off Harry 
with Neville, and I kept going "Neville??? and Harry???" But now I'm 
determined to write a fic exploring that particular ship *g*)

_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* 
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Sun Jan 12 16:52:08 2003
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999 <foxmoth@qnet.com>)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 16:52:08 -0000
Subject: Couplethinking
In-Reply-To: <avn6jv+urpm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <avs6fo+c25a@eGroups.com>

The Elkins said:
(Who is The Elkins, what is she? And who can comprehend 
her?)

>>I mean, for heaven's sake! Did Paul get *laid* on the Road To 
Damascus?"<<


LOL! Should I tell you that my filker's mind immediately flashed 
on Jesus, accompanied by the Fab Four, appearing before Paul 
in a blaze of gory and banging out "Why don't we do it in the 
road?"

But seriously, I think that many people aren't as 
compartmentalized as The Four Loves philosophy implies. I 
think many people really can't feel any kind of love strongly 
without arousing a sort of echo from the others. In real life, 
expressing these echo feelings would many times be 
inappropriate and would upset or even violate the primary 
relationship. In realistic fiction, the same applies. But since fan 
fiction is not about the "real" characters, authors and readers can 
explore those echoes without implying that acting on them would 
be a good idea in real life.

Pippin




From abigailnus at yahoo.com  Sun Jan 12 17:00:43 2003
From: abigailnus at yahoo.com (abigailnus <abigailnus@yahoo.com>)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 17:00:43 -0000
Subject: Miscalleneous having mostly to do with agape vs. eros
In-Reply-To: <001a01c2b8c2$9a1181c0$512432d2@price>
Message-ID: <avs6vr+nrge@eGroups.com>

You know, my plan for this afternoon was to check in only with 
OT-Chatter, because I haven't had time to check in on the main 
group over the weekend and if I do that now I'll never get started 
on my homework.  It's quite a monkey wrench in my plans to 
discover that OTC seems to have become as busy as the main 
group!  Anyway, there are a few rather disjointed comments I 
thought I'd throw out and then get to work (yeah, right).

There have been several very interesting arguments about 
couplehood, couplethink, and the romantic paradigm.  I am 
supremely unqualified to offer thought on romance, but Tabouli 
seemed to be speaking my thoughts when she wrote:
>>I ran a series of workshops for international students (mostly 
from Asia) and got them to speculate about what various items 
said about Australian society.  One of the things I gave them was 
a page from the lonely hearts column in the local paper, and a Thai 
(or was he Indonesian?) man said something quite interesting.  He 
said that Westerners seem to be obsessed with "finding love" and 
"soulmates" and so on in a way people in his country aren't.  In his 
country, you (hopefully) get that sort of feeling of belonging and 
intimacy from your extended family, and it's not so crucial to find a 
spouse to complete you and fulfil all your emotional needs, there's 
a much stronger element of social obligation.>>

Not only do I have very little romantic experience, I've also had only 
limited encounters with the romantic paradigm.  My father died when 
I was young, and since then the most important relationship(s) in my 
life has been with my mother and younger brother.  I feel no 
compunction about using the word 'we' to describe us, our thoughts 
and activities.  We understand each other, we enjoy similar things, 
and enjoy doing them together.  Most importantly, we make each 
other laugh.  I have relationships outside my family that are important 
to me, and the older I get the less I feel like spending all my time at 
home (in the living at home sense, not in the never going out sense), 
but the place where I feel most comfortable, most understood, is with 
my family.  So what I want from a future relationship is not necessarily 
eros, although that would be good.  I want a family in my future - people 
who make me feel safe and wanted.  This family can include one person 
or two or twelve, they may be my relatives or my spouse or my friends 
- the composition, in my opinion, is less important than the effect.    

Dicentra, a fellow X-Files refugee, lamented:
>>But there was still a percentage of people--it felt like the
majority--that wanted them to "get together" because it would be *so
cuuuute!* Or they figured something was already going on. Or that
something was simmering under the surface. But it wasn't. And it
bugged me no end because I was so afraid Chris Carter would give in to
them and change the dynamic, thereby ruining the show. <sigh> He did.
When Scully's gratuitous baby turned out to be Mulder's (I think. I
stopped watching.) the show jumped the shark big time. I'll never
forgive them for doing that.>>

I think I've mentioned before that my only major involvement with 
fanfic was with X-Files fanfic about 5 years ago, and the experience 
has turned me off the genre completely.  Not that X-Files fanfic was 
bad - there was the normal ratio of utter dreck to absolute gems.  
My problem with fanfic was that I felt it polluted my perception of the 
show - what we call 'fanon', I guess - so that by the time I'd been 
reading for two or three years I was a confirmed shipper even though 
I normally hate that sort of thing.  Having said that, I don't think Mulder 
and Scully are a good example of agape needlessly being turned into 
eros.  By the time the series was a few years into its run, it was utterly 
impossible for me to imagine Mulder and Scully with other people, and 
I don't think I was alone in that. Their relationship was so consuming, 
so all-encompassing, that it was inconceivable that anyone else would 
be able to breach it and become important enough to either of them to 
be loved.  Sex, at this point, was a side issue, a matter of convenience 
- they were already a couple, a glaring example of couplethink, in fact, 
long before they became romantically involved.  (And I think it's a bit 
inaccurate to say that X-Files jumped the shark when Mulder and Scully 
became involved - the last season of the show I could even bear to 
watch all the way through was the sixth, and the actual romance didn't 
come until the end of the seventh.)

Melody and Tabouli, about Peter Jackson's Frodo and Sam:
>>Tabouli again:
>It's very pervasive, this one. All the jokes about the LOTR
>characters, for example. (Sam loves Frodo so much there just *has*
>to be sex involved, right?) Not that I don't find some of them
>funny, I just think they're a reflection of this eros obsession.

I could not agree *more* Tabouli. I am greatly, greatly disturbed by
the number of people that do not get that friendship. They just
cannot imagine being that close to someone and not completely jumping
them. It is sad. For humanity and that confused person. What a
lonely existence where one stops all friendship before they get good
because they cannot understand agape does not mean eros. Nor do they
want to go on for fear someone else, who is just *observing* the
friendship, will confuse the agape for eros.>>

I frankly can't blame the people who see sexual undertones to the 
relationship between Frodo and Sam in Jackson's version of FoTR.  On 
the other hand, I can't really blame Jackson for opening the text up to 
that interpretation (or at least strengthening the arguments for it).  A 
homosexual relationship between the two, overt or suggested, is still 
more acceptable than the relationship as it is presented in the book - 
master and servant, lieutenant and man.  I've been rereading LoTR 
recently, and have just read a passage in which Sam *curls up and goes 
to sleep at Frodo's feet*.  What is he, a dog?  (yes, I knew this stuff was 
there, but every time I reread the book it becomes harder to stomach).  
Jackson has worked to eliminate that aspect of the relationship and who 
can blame him, but in his choice to make Frodo young and fey (when the 
book's Frodo is supposed to be a grown man, relatively comfortable in 
his own skin) he also eliminated the possibility of reading that relationship 
as agape - deep, enduring love between two men that comes of 
friendship and camaraderie.  Oh, well.

Abigail
Really off to do homework now.





From Malady579 at hotmail.com  Sun Jan 12 17:31:16 2003
From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody <Malady579@hotmail.com>)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 17:31:16 -0000
Subject: The Four Loves
In-Reply-To: <avr1e0+5q3b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <avs8p4+lhfo@eGroups.com>

Anne wrote:
> I believe your sense of what the four loves are is close but can be
> defined a little more closely.  Look back at your previous post
>where you looked up agape -- it was defined as "Christian love."  So
>agape would be the love of God.  A person with agape would have love
>for God and, by extension, for his people.  Mother Theresa's love for
>the people of Calcutta is was agape love.  So is God's love for us.

I think I am starting to unravel my confusion.  See - in my wrong view
of things, God's love is more like Storge.  It is a parent's love.  So
when that love was introduced to me (about two weeks ago), I got
confused.  You know: God the Father and all.  Plus to add to the fun,
I got confused because if you say God's love is agape, well in
Christian eyes that love will die for you.

Now I guess I see what the idea of agape really is.  Is it a love
bestowed on a people because of their condition or rather their
choice?  Is it, roughly, sympathetic love?  A love of a person because
they are in a bracket?  Oh, that does not sound very romantic at all.
 If you look at it from the definition perspective of "Christian
love", in the light of the newbie first century Christian church where
this word would have been used daily, it is a bond between people that
is deeper that emotion.  It is a union of purpose really and a visible
word to say I would die for this person/belief.

I think I do need to read CS Lewis' book for clarification.  I am
surprised I have not been introduced to it before.  My mom loves to
recommend books like that.


Anne wrote:
> Well...I think rather that it is possible to love a friend with both
> philos and agape and your child with both storge and agape.  On the
> other hand, someone who does not believe in God could still die for
> someone out of philos or storge alone --

Can only Christians feel agape?  Seems agape could apply to any
religion or even any cause.  It is used to describe God's love because
that is where the use of the word first started, back to the love in
John 3:16, but I would think the general meaning of the word would
cross apply.


Anne disagreed:
> Well, here I will disagree.  Eros is a form of love.  Lust, on the
> other hand, is merely wanting sex and has nothing to do with love or
> actually caring for the other person.  True eros is *partly*
> expressed in sexual union as well as in other ways of caring, and
> you can have eros, philos and agape for the same person.  And, yes,
> I think someone could certainly die for someone out of eros alone.

And now I see what I did.  I used the modern day word "erotic" to
deduce what "eros" means.  I am sorry.  I completely agree with you.
A person *can* have agape, eros, and philo on the same person.  In
fact, I think that is what many people dream of.  To have the person
you marry be the one person you can amass all these loves in one
place.  I do think "storge" is the one odd love out as it should be.
Woody Allen aside, it is not acceptable in our society to have four
loves in one person.


Tabouli asked:
>(Hmmm. How often do people do such radical things under the influence
>of one of the other three loves? Any thoughts?)

Well we have Cindy's Lily storge HP point.  Giving a life is radical
even if it is a bit trite to our ears.  I have heard of stories of
mothers lifting refrigerators and cars off or children when they are
caught because they had to save their child.  Kind of a mix of
adrenaline and storge.  Also a parent would send their child away from
danger before they will send themselves.  Like in Two Towers or during
WWII.  I think that is why the movie "Sophie's Choice" is so hard to
watch.  She had to make a cruel impossible decision of which storge
child to choose.

Philo is harder.  Mostly because out of all the loves, this one seems
to be seen in the most degrees.  Almost the "I like" love.  We do have
war stories of soldiers going back into the battlefield to find their
best friend soldier.  Isn't that the plot of "The Four Feathers"?  Did
not see it, but the trailer hinted at that.

Agape.  I think of all those martyrs.  All through the ages.  The
Buddhist monks that set themselves on fire.  People that will
willingly be captured and tortured all because they won't denounce.
Or if you rather, people that have gone underground and started almost
their own culture to get away from the persecution from their agape.

If I have the definition right this time, then many radical things
have been done in the name of agape.  America was founded on this
fact.  It would be like us traveling to Mars and starting a colony
because we were being persecuted for loving HP the way we do.  Ok, ok,
a bit of a stretch there, but I hope you see my point.

So then, with the new light of what eros in fact is (sorry I confused
it from before), I do think many radical things have been done in the
name of it.  So I second all Tabouli said.  I know - big shock there.


Melody
who is surprised to see it is finally snowing today in her part of Texas





From ression at hotmail.com  Sun Jan 12 18:10:46 2003
From: ression at hotmail.com (ER <ression@hotmail.com>)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 18:10:46 -0000
Subject: Fanfics with slash & sex...I don't get it
In-Reply-To: <avqfdg+larl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <avsb36+e1uq@eGroups.com>

Well, goodness, that provoked a few responses I wasn't expecting! I 
will try and address your concerns, but let me say at the outset that 
I was (a) trying to inject a little light-heartedness into the 
discussion, (b) trying to suggest a practical scheme for adding 
warnings to FanFic (FF) pieces and (c) offering _my_ point-of-view 
(POV) that FF should try to stick to the spirit of the original. I 
may not be as well versed in the Potterverse as some of you but I 
feel I'm entitled to my POV. You're using an awfully big stick to 
beat an awfully small neophyte. And, as there seems to be some 
confusion on the matter, I'm male not female. I hope that doesn't 
damn me too :)

(apologies for the length of this post - if I missed anybody's 
concerns out, feel to yell or contact me offline).


Saitaina wrote -

Secondly, I am offended that you would consider slash outside the 
norm. For a great many people heterosexual stories are outside their 
normal view of things. I believe that any story, any relationship 
is "normal". Especially considering the great variety of HP stories 
around. And I'm not just talking about slash/het pairings, I'm 
talking about everything from Hermione and Harry to Hagrid and the 
giant squid.

(me) Well, we're fencing with words here. I used "normal"  
not "norm", and they do (I think) have subtly different meanings. 
Normal means (according to my dictionary) "usual" or "typical", and I 
contend that as far as the human race as a whole goes homosexuality 
is neither usual nor typical. A sizeable minority no doubt, but not a 
majority and so not typical. Note that I'm speaking from the POV of 
the human race (modest of me eh ;). Homosexuals are, of course quite 
free from _their_ POV to consider heterosexuality not "normal". Note 
that I very deliberately avoided the use of the word "abnormal" since 
I knew this would cause offence (and I'm not out to annoy anybody, 
impossible though that probably is I'm now fast learning, sigh) and 
more to the point, I'm not sure that "abnormal" is just the opposite 
of normal. Its primary meaning in my dictionary is "exceptional", 
which seems to me to carry a stronger meaning than just not-normal. 
Buggering a cow is probably abnormal, but I don't throw gay sex into 
the same pot. Anyway, the linguists can argue this one if they 
desire ...

And before anybody tells me, I used the word "norm" further on, but 
there I was referring to that which I'd just defined in the previous 
paragraph. Not a mention of homosexuality, I was trying to establish 
what I consider the spirit of the stories and arguing that deviation 
from this (used the word before and I'm using it again, in the sense 
of diverge) merits a warning.


Saitaina also wrote -

Third, why should slash carry warnings if het does not? I don't like 
to read about Hermione getting it on with every male in Hogwarts, yet 
I've accidentally stumbled upon some. Yes, stumbled, there was no 
warning what so ever. At least with my story's it's pretty obvious 
it's slash if the summary says "Draco and Harry are forced to break 
up. Songfic" ("Written in the Stars", AstroTower). Granted a few of 
my stories aren't so clear in summary, such as, "Neville has become 
the wizzarding world's new hero, but is he ready to face those that 
betrayed him?" ("The End of the Beginning", Schnoogle) but I do put 
the fact that it's slash prominently in the author's note as well as 
pairings.

Should not het authors have to do the same if we slash authors do?

(me) I was trying to suggest a means for generating the least amount 
of work. If the majority would like to be warned about slash rather 
than het, then that to me is the simplest way to go. I'm tall but the 
airlines don't make (cattle-class) seats with extra legroom just for 
me, they go for the majority market. I grin and bear it. Just.

I'm sorry you stumbled onto a slut!Hermione-fest - as that differs 
from what I consider to be the spirit of the story. I would have 
liked to have seen a warning. Have a moan at the author. Your own 
warnings seem admirable and just the sort of thing I like to see, 
just a line, nothing more and no need to apologise for it.


Heidy Tandy wrote -
--------------------------------------------------------------------
ER also wrote:
> What is this nonsense leading up to? My view is that one should 
warn 
> about the things that are _likely_ to upset or offend the 
_majority_ 

Nonsense? It's a logical extension of the premise that one should warn
about things that are likely to upset or offend a number of people, if
not a full scale majority (and unlike you, I don't think that the
majority of people in the over-13 side of the HP fandom are offended 
by
the idea that people in the world are gay; some are, but I don't think
it's a full 51%.)

Oh, and a note to Haggridd, who wrote, "As you can see, this [use of 
the
word "nonsense"] refers to ER's comments."

No, it doesn't. It clearly refers to my "warning", which I admit is
overblown and ridiculous - I think that the idea of warning the 
reading
public about the contents of a story is not only antithetical to the
process of reading, where a little suspense and glimpses of the
unexpected are a natural and requisite part of the interpritation of
narrative and appreciation of suspense. But the point of why I 
provided
the warning has clearly been missed, so I'll spell it out again - If
warnings are required about things that might offend or upset, then
those warnings would be required for GoF. They would be. Point out
something in that warning that would upset nobody, and I'll delete 
it -
but I don't think that anything in there would upset *nobody*. 
---------------------------------------------------------------------

(me)

On the use of the word "nonsense" - no, Haggridd was correct (and 
indeed read the whole post in the spirit in which it was intended, 
thank-you!), I was referring to my own light-hearted comments on 
your "warning", which I took to be light-hearted in content! But I 
didn't miss the serious point of your "warning" (honestly) - I was 
trying to say (perhaps badly) that in a practical sense, as far as 
warnings go, one has to stick with what one perceives to be the 
majority view, otherwise the whole process becomes too cumbersome - 
as you showed. 

We can of course disagree on what the majority are offended by (I 
guess a few hard facts would be useful, but I fear they will be hard 
to come by) but, if a majority votes (say) for warnings for 
heterosexual sex/kissing/cuddling or whatever, that's fine by me, 
I'll go with the flow. My vote would be against such warnings, but 
maybe I'm in the minority.

I note that you cite the over-13 readership - it's my opinion that a 
substantial portion of the readership are under-14. And I think they 
need warnings. Even if they don't heed them the first few times, the 
message will eventually sink in and they can avoid what they don't 
like. And them that are attracted to slash can head straight on in. 
Certainly we could do it the other way around, it's all slash unless 
it says otherwise, but it seems more work that way around. And please 
note that I'd expect a warning if there was heterosexual sex between 
the characters, unless they'd reached a suitable age (yeah, yeah, 
what's suitable I know - well, we'll have to wait for JK to make that 
clear in books 5,6 and 7).


Queer as John (QAJ) wrote

---------------------------------------------------------------
> What is this nonsense leading up to? My view is that one should warn
> about the things that are _likely_ to upset or offend the _majority_
> and, rightly or wrongly, quite a lot of people get upset by
> descriptions of homosexual sex. Thus IMHO it makes sense for slash
> stories to carry a prominent warning, but "normal" stories need not.

ER, but I am incredibly offended by your statement and use of 
language.
(It's also exceedingly rude to refer to somebody else's point 
as "nonsense".
You may not understand the point, but in that case, ask for 
clarification
rather than attacking with vitriol.)
------------------------------------------------------------------

(me) - you've missed the point totally. I explained "nonsense" above, 
it referred to my own comments. Now, I could decide to get offended 
at this "attack" on me, but I don't :) You just misread my words, 
maybe my fault, maybe yours, but nothing to go off the deep-end about 
and start throwing words like "vitriol" about. Just ask for 
clarification if in doubt.

Actually this does bring up an interesting point. If we were talking 
face-to-face these misunderstandings either wouldn't occur (body 
language, etc etc) or there'd be a raised eyebrow and a quick 
clarification. And quite probably nobody would notice a particular 
use of a word anyway (e.g. deviates). When it's being done via Email, 
people have time to brood and misread (and the author has no chance 
to clarify until the perceived hurt has been done). Email (or 
whatever you want to call a Yahoo group) does mean one has to be 
careful I guess, but I draw the line at having my lawyer and a 
linguist standing at my shoulder as I type. Perhaps one has to be a 
little more thick-skinned if one attends a Yahoo group, or at least 
ask for confirmation of what is seen as a slight or attack.


QAJ wrote (and Madeline picked up on) -

The reason I am offended is that the continuation of your argument 
(if not your argument itself) is that if slash is not normal, gay 
people are abnormal. Calling gay people "abnormal" or even "not 
normal" is personally offensive to me and, I suspect, to many others, 
gay and non-gay, in this community. I object to it in the strongest 
possible terms.

(me) - I dealt with "normal" and "abnormal" above in response to 
Saitaina. For emphasis, note that I quite deliberately did _not_ use 
the word abnormal. You introduced the word, not me.


QAJ wrote -

Think about what you are suggesting in another context: should 
AngieJ's excellent _Paradise_ series have "Warning: inter-racial 
couple" or "Warning: black character narrator" warnings? Of course 
not, we say. (Or, at least, I hope we say.) How about Ron/Hermione 
fics < should they contain "Warning: pureblood/mudblood couple" 
language? Again, of course not < that is ridiculous.

(me) I quite agree! But, I do know people who object to (or are at 
least offended by) descriptions of homosexual pairings but I don't 
know anybody who objects to inter-racial coupling. It's not to say 
that such bigots don't exist, but I can only speak from my own 
experience.


QAJ wrote -


I'll also reiterate my frustration with the fact that people (not 
just you, ER) appear through their language to be implying that all 
slash involves gay sex. It doesn't, any more than all fics with 
heterosexual pairings involves straight sex.


(me) you certainly have a point there (and somebody else made the 
same point, Saitaina was it). It's just that any gay behaviour 
is "not normal" (i.e. not what the majority do) and certainly not in 
the (current) spirit of the story, so I feel it should be pointed 
out. You obviously disagree. Fine by me. I think I read some of your 
FFs a while ago and as far as I remember they all carried prominent 
warnings. So perhaps you too agree at times on this? As far as I 
remember they were intelligent fics, I may even have reviewed to that 
effect. St Andrews University was it? Or was that where you got you 
degree? Did a "Prince of the Blood" make a cameo-appearance? ;)


QAJ wrote -

---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Anyway, I think that HP FanFics that deviate markedly from this norm
> should also carry a warning - "this ain't what you think it's going
> to be"!

I *really* hope that you are not referring to slash when you 
say "deviate".
Because I really dislike it when people refer to my orientation as
"deviant".
----------------------------------------------------------------------

(me) Certainly was! But not using it in the sense you have fastened 
on (I guess your blood was boiling by the time you'd waded this far 
through my post :). It was simply used in the sense of "diverge" 
or "differ". Your reading never occurred to me. Again, I think you're 
being a little over-sensitive here.


And, while I've got your attention, I think the (Tyke) phrase 
is "There's nowt _so_ queer as folk". Just though I'd mention that, 
it keeps grating on me, quite prepared to be proved wrong, it's your 
sig, do with it as you will :)


Heidy Tandy wrote -

Clearly, she cared about him [Cedric]. I was so hit out of the blue 
by it [Cedric's death] when I read that part that I didn't cry, 
myself, but I did when he asked Harry to bring his body back to his 
parents. I wonder, how could anyone (especially reading this after 
9/11, in a universe JKR never could have contemplated when she wrote 
this scene - when the whole issue of returning the smallest bit of 
one of the victims to his or her loved ones) not be touched by that?

(me) Maybe women are more emotional about these things than men or 
things go deeper with them? As I say, I can't get upset about the 
death of a bit-part character, but obviously some people do. You and 
JK at an absolute minimum. And re the bringing back of the body, it 
never occurred to me to think that that could move people to tears, 
bringing it back simply seems like the decent thing to do. Did other 
people get upset by Cedric's death? Did you feel you knew very much 
about him? Did the death of the old chap at the start of the book 
move you? Would you have been more upset if it had been Ron killed at 
the end of the book? And, yes, I would, but I certainly wouldn't cry, 
I'd just think (a) waste of a good character and (b) what a shame, 
poor old Ron, always getting the short-end of the stick. But Cedric-
who-he, nope, sorry. If it had been real life (9/11), then totally 
different matter, real people are dying and it's upsetting, though 
probably not a crying matter as far as I go.

In an aside, I was struck by the use of the phrase "kill the spare" - 
it rings bells from somewhere, but I really can't remember where. Was 
it Clockwork Orange or something like that?????


Heidy Tandy wrote -

In the book trade, fyi, books for 8 and 9 year olds are considered on 
the edge of YA books - not children's books

(me) Sheesh! Now I begin to understand some of our mutual confusion. 
8 and 9-year-olds are children as far as I'm concerned. As are 10,11 
and probably 12-year-olds. At 13 they're starting to grow up a bit.  
I guess the world has changed and passed me by - wouldn't be hard, I 
have no real experience of children (and don't want any). They're 
fine for an hour or so, but after that I like to know that either 
they or I are going home now.


Heidy Tandy wrote -

There are some wonderful stories that follow the spirit of JKR's 
novels. How about Dreamwalk Blue, where Tom Riddle gets homicidal 
while at school? It's totally canon based! It also contains both 
sexual activity among students and some violence - but it's about Tom 
Riddle in his last years at Hogwarts - could you actually walk into a 
story where the summary indicates that and be surprised that he's Not 
Such A Nice Guy? 


(me) Not quite sure what your point is here. If it's in the spirit of 
the original then all well and good. I'd probably read and enjoy it.


Various folks wrote or implied -

"Should PoU (and other stories) carry warnings for gay sex or adult 
situations"

(me) Well, yes and no - the story as far as I remember says that it 
(and ditto for other "epics") is post-Hogwarts and features adult 
situations. That's fine, that's all that's needed - adults have sex 
and adults have gay sex, so neither is going to upset me. I guess I 
might be a little peeved (ho-ho) if it turned out that every 
character in the fic was now gay or sado-masochistic or a child-
molester, since I'd argue that was not a plausible continuation of 
the original and thus not "in spirit". One couldn't gainsay the 
author, but one has to be sensible about what's likely.


For the record (finally) I'm not in the least bit offended by slash, 
I just don't think it's in the spirit of the original and so I like 
to see it trailed explicitly ('gay') or implicitly ('adult'). If 
there is FanFic for some homosexually-centred story (I think Heidy 
Tandy mentioned "Less than Zero") then I would like to see warnings 
for heterosexual behaviour, since this is not (I assume) what the 
reader would expect. Keep it in the spirit of the original story 
ideally - if not, then at least warn people.

BTW, what's a LOLLIPOP?


ER, who doesn't understand where people find the time to post so 
prolifically. This little oeuvre has just about killed me and is only 
possible since I recharged the batteries with a good long walk 
earlier. And now I need another one.





From john at queerasjohn.com  Sun Jan 12 19:05:47 2003
From: john at queerasjohn.com (Queer as John)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 19:05:47 +0000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Fanfics, ratings & heated responses
In-Reply-To: <avs0j0+i62q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <BA476D0B.52FC%john@queerasjohn.com>

Diana <dianasdolls at yahoo.com> said:

> First off, I would like to point out that not wanting to read about
> same-sex couples having sex does not make a person a homophobe.

I disagree. A phobia is an irrational dislike, fear or hatred. Leaving the
fear and hatred aside for now, precisely *how* can such a dislike be
*rational*? Seriously, I'm not being rhetorically questioning here, I'm
actually interested in finding out.

The only *rational* reason I can think of is if one is reading erotica for
the purposes of sexual stimulation. If het/slash doesn't arouse you, there's
nothing that you can do about it.

> I wouldn't want to read about my college astronomy professor getting it on
> with my milkman or John Rhys-Davies having an interlude with Mr. Whipple, but
> that doesn't mean I wouldn't enjoy reading about two gay characters I like
> reading about doing the deed.

But I *do* think that, in certain readings of canon, there are characters
who can be seen as gay. See below.

> It just means that I prefer some pairings over other pairings, or I prefer to
> read about pairings that I find truly plausible, exciting or personally
> stimulating to me.  Or maybe I prefer not to read about sexual pairings at all
> for my own personal reasons.

Again, what reasons could those be if they are not a phobia?

> Regardless of what I choose to read, I should be able to have a
> rough idea of what to expect if choosing to read a work of amateur
> fiction about characters I've already got my mind set about.  I've
> read all four books and decided for myself what sexual orientation
> some the characters are and who they're attracted to, and I don't
> welcome someone barging into my vision and telling me I've got it
> all wrong.

Isn't that what HPforGrownups is all about? Debating? Portraying characters
in sympathetic or unsympathetic lights? People disagreeing about canon
interpretations? People have used fanfiction as canon explanation on the
main list in the past. Why is it different when we start talking about
sexual orientation? Because certain sectors of society find it more
acceptable to discuss murdering children (Cedric) than two people of the
same gender falling in love? Again, I'm interested here.

> This is where rating fanfiction gets tricky.  But not that tricky.
> If I don't want to read stories with specific pairings, I should be
> able to look through the list and be able to identify pairings that
> I am not interested in.

That's why we have pairings-based, ratings-based and, on FA, length-based
and *theme-based* sorting. Don't want to read NC-17 Ron/Draco? That's fine.
But I argue that the Ron/Draco author shouldn't be forced to plaster her
story with "Attention: Boys Getting It On" warnings. Similarly, a PG-13
Oliver/Percy falling in love story shouldn't have to give "Warning: Gay
People Inside" notices.

> As for the ratings for sexual and violent content, we are [almost]
> all adults on this list and can handle most things, even if the
> pairings or content isn't our usual preference, but children, who
> can and do access fanfic sites on the internet can't discern those
> differences as well and might think they can handle more than they
> really can or just don't know what the ratings mean.
> Clear, accurate, ratings would help solve this problem a great deal,
> assuming children didn't seek out the most explicitly rated stories
> just because of the "need to see what that stuff is about" factor.

Frankly, children shouldn't be running around on the internet unsupervised.
It is not the responsibility of anybody but a child's parent or guardian to
monitor their child's internet usage. If a twelve or thirteen year old
child, despite the R ratings (for language, not sex) and lies, clicking
through parental acknowledgements on FA, and manages to read my Keeper's
Secrets, it's not my problem.

> I don't think stumbling upon a slash fanfic, a non-
> graphic one, would make him gay or mess him up for life - that's
> silly.  However, I don't want to get into a bunch of topics and
> explanations he's not ready yet to comprehend for many, many reasons.

But surely, as a responsible parent, you monitor your nine year old's
internet usage, and thus the point about children being disturbed by
material, of whatever nature, is rather moot?

> As far as being an adult and stumbling across fanfiction I have no
> interest in, I am frustrated in what the fanfic sites lack - and
> that is comprehensive classification on the most basic level.

Interestingly, we at FA are working on revamping our system, because the
small archive we envisaged now has over 11,000 *members* and
gods-know-how-many readers.
 
> Unfortunately, too many people are quick to cry "discrimination" at
> the suggestion that fanfics should be clearly sorted into different
> ratings for sex and violence, couple pairings and slash or non-
> slash, but sorting is not about discrimination.

But nobody I have seen writing here is arguing that. People are arguing that
there is no reason why, *purely on the basis of gay characters*, a slash
story should have explicit warnings which exceed those put on het stories.

> It is about enabling those readers who want to find and read fanfics a chance
> to preserve their own views of the canon-based characters while adding to
> their images only what they want to add.  Fanfics with bad writing, too
> little/too much cursing or unwanted pairings or excessive/too little sex or
> whatever can bring unwanted images to mind.

> What is unjust is that because I state this, some
> people assume that I must be homophobic or a canon-idolizing
> nincompoop. 

Not at all. You appear homophobic because your argument is that you do not
want your canon images "tainted" (your word) by homosexuality, among other
things. *That* is homophobic language.

> There shouldn't be name-calling over someone defending their right to maintain
> their own vision of the HP characters, free from taint, unwanted images, and
> bad fiction.

See, when you use language like "taint", that makes me think that you are
implying that gay people bring that "taint" into society. And we gay people
hear that language a *lot*. Mostly from Jerry Falwell and Jack Chick. And it
is offensive, to us and to others.

> For the record, no.  I think Barty Crouch Jr. is/was gay.  I think a few other
> characters could be either/or, and I'm undecided at the moment.  Do I think of
> all the HP characters in terms of whether they're gay or straight?  It may
> surprise the self-appointed activists on the list, but I don't.

>From my perspective as a gay man who went through a British boarding school,
I have to say that I *do*, with most of the characters. I didn't
necessarily, on my first reading, but since we have had _so_ much time since
GoF came out, on my fifth and sixth readings, I start to delve more deeply
into what makes these characters tick.

For example (gasp! I'm going on-topic!), I believe that one possible reason
for Percy's adherence to rules is that he is gay and in the closet. Why do I
think that? A number of reasons, including his adherence to rules and
ambition. I'd elaborate, but that's not my point. My point is that I *do*
think that, given the evidence from Kinsey and others, close to 50% of the
male population has had a homosexual experience at some point in their
lives. At least 10% are exclusively gay in their attractions.

Since we do not have any evidence on which to base an assumption that the
wizarding world is a welcoming haven for gay people, we therefore assume
that ALL of these gay people are in the closet. In other words, we don't
know who they are, and we can only theorise on subtext. And, boy, is there a
lot of subtext.

I'll move on to the other thread on this.

--John, proud to be an activist, and wondering if there is some sort of
committee which appoints activists who aren't self-appointed :)

______________________________________

Queer as John || john at queerasjohn.com

AIM, YM & LJ @ QueerAsJohn || www.queerasjohn.com

"There's nowt as queer as folk."  --English proverb
______________________________________




From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Sun Jan 12 17:52:39 2003
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd <jkusalavagemd@yahoo.com>)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 17:52:39 -0000
Subject: Fanfics with slash & sex...I don't get it
In-Reply-To: <avrf94+bhje@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <avsa17+fckl@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Simon Branford 
<simon.hp at v...>" <simon.hp at v...> wrote:
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Haggridd wrote:
> > It is that 
> > the fanfics should follow the spirit of the original story (Thank 
> > you, ER!).  It is for this reason that slash should carry content 
> > labels.  Having read the original stories, one has certain 
> > expectation that deserve to be honored.  
> 
> So far in the story we have seen couples kissing (and only a few of 
> those). This implies that any fic containing more than this should 
> include a suitable warning, because it is not following 'the spirit 
> of the original story'. Whether or not a rating of R or NC17 
> constitutes such a warning is up for discussion, but not terribly 
> important.
> 
Simon, it is not that there is kissing per se, but the entire manner 
in which JKR handles it, which is in an "innocent" (for want of a 
better term) prepubescent (at least up til now) fashion.  This may 
well change as Harry gets older, but this has been the case at least 
up through GoF.  Even the one adult romance, that of Hagrid and 
Maxime, has been presented in an innocent, pre-bite-of-apple fashion.
R vsersus NC17 has no bearing on the stories so far.  If you are 
going to borrow movie ratings as they are applied today, the series 
would be PG at most, at least with regard to sexuality.  The "tube of 
goo" threatens that image in a most basic way and, I contend, is 
contrary to what has been written by JKR.

> I get the impression, Haggridd, that you believe the original 
stories 
> to contain nothing homosexual (whether same sex couples kissing, 
> showing feelings towards each other or more). I also know that 
other 
> feel similarly. However there is a significant group of people who 
> would (and do) disagree with this view.
> 
You are precisely correct.  I believe the original stories contain 
nothing homosexual.  This does not have anything to do with my 
feelings about being gay in RL.  I have stated those before, and will 
not decscend to that "some of my best friends are..." nonsense.
I repeat I believe THE ORIGINAL STORIES contain nothing homosexual.  
Every "example" that I have seen so far has been either an instance 
of wishful thinking, or the assertion that an absence of JKR's 
explicitly ruling out homosexual actions, intentions, thoughts, etc. 
in an interaction between characters means that there can be, should 
be, MUST BE a gay theme underlining the interaction.  To resurrect 
another line from a poster on the mother list, "sometimes a cigar is 
just a cigar."

I would enjoy and find it intellectually stimulating to agrue from 
the text any passage that you feel supports a gay relationship in the 
stories by commission, not omission.  Said discussion would be 
without rancor, as two fans of HP enjoying their mutual passion.  I 
fear though that any such discussion is doomed, because it appears to 
be the opinion of some on this list that to hold that homosexuality 
is not rampant throughout the HP books, and is a contant subtext, 
makes one a HOMOPHOBE, and therefore one whose opinions shall have no 
validity.  

Rest assured that any personal opinions I hold are of individuals, 
and I do not damn an entire segment of the population because of 
their unreasoning hostility.

> In GoF (Yule Ball chapter) we see Sinistra and Vector dancing 
> together. Quite a few people believe that this shows a happily 
> attached lesbian couple dancing the night away with their students.
>
How many dances did you go to in high school-- or comprehensive 
school, or public school-- wherre the girls danced together, either 
from shyness on the boys' part, or an imbalance of gender ration, or 
sheer delight in the music?  Were theses girls all lesbians? But 
y'know, you are right, it certainly could be.  If so, JKR surely 
didn't dwell much on it.  Sinestra and Vector certainly don't appear 
as an item anywhere in the books, do they?  I think it is a 
legitimate item of discussion.

> Others believe that some of Harry's comments and actions point 
toward 
> him showing homosexual feelings towards others, usually Draco or 
Ron.
>
Yeah well, this is where I believe a lot of wishful thinking is going 
on.  I have seen these arguments, and I find them specious, IMNSHO.
 
> Flourish has already given her view on teens sexual preferences. My 
> only addition to that would be that the teenage years are seen by 
> many as the time when an individual gets the chance to work out who 
> they are. In essence the chance for the person to become an 
> individual. For many a large part of this is the question of sexual 
> orientation. Would it not be natural to see this?
> 
> 
If JKR has her characters work them out so that some are demonstrated 
to be gay, then that will be canon.  Until then, not.
 
> So who is right on what the original series shows and what its 
spirit 
> is?

Why, that is and should be the point of a friendly, lively 
discussion, not a food fight.

Haggridd
p.s.  Are you the same Simon who posted on the FAP "Homophobes and 
where tO kick them" thread?  I thought you were very reasonable 
there.  I hope you thought the same of me.
> 
> 
> Simon





From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Sun Jan 12 17:58:06 2003
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd <jkusalavagemd@yahoo.com>)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 17:58:06 -0000
Subject: Fanfics with slash & sex...I don't get it - getting far off the actual topic
In-Reply-To: <avrsro+sebb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <avsabe+v38c@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Simon Branford 
<simon.hp at v...>" <simon.hp at v...> wrote:
> Amy (or the annoying nitpicker) wrote:
> > To pour some nitpicking oil on troubled waters:
> > 
> > Simon wrote:
> > 
> > > In GoF (Yule Ball chapter) we see Sinistra and Vector dancing 
> > > together. 
> > 
> > No, we see Mad-Eye Moody and Sinistra dancing together.  The 
> > possible homosexuality involved derives from the fact that Prof. 
> > Sinistra's gender is as yet a mystery.  
> 
> Oh dear :( Really should have found my copy of GoF before writing, 
> but it is sadly hidden behind my stack of cds and I did not want to 
> disturb them just to check on which pairing it was. The possiblity 
> for having a pile of cds to sort was too high!
> 
>
Hurray for L.O.O.N.s!!!  I thought that Sinestra's gender was 
indeterminate, but i didn't want to break from my last rant-- ahem, I 
mean post-- in order to check it.  Simon, I would be as delighted for 
Amy have setteled the question in the opposite way.  More textual 
analysis, less manifestos!


 
> > No lesbian couples have 
> > been so much as hinted at, though you have to wonder about 
Parvati 
> > and Lavender.  I mean, *lavender.*  Is that a wink wink nudge 
nudge 
> > or what?
> 
> They do seem to spend a lot of time together... Though some people 
> spend more time wondering what was/is going on between Ginny and 
> Hermione for Ginny to know Hermione's Yule Ball plans...
> 
> 
> > tongue in cheek
> 
> Indeed and, I find, it is often the best place for the tongue to 
be :P
> 
whose cheek?

H.






From john at queerasjohn.com  Sun Jan 12 19:37:20 2003
From: john at queerasjohn.com (Queer as John)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 19:37:20 +0000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Fanfics with slash & sex...I don't get
	it
In-Reply-To: <avsb36+e1uq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <BA477470.5311%john@queerasjohn.com>

ER <ression at hotmail.com> said:

> (me) Well, we're fencing with words here. I used "normal"
> not "norm", and they do (I think) have subtly different meanings.
> Normal means (according to my dictionary) "usual" or "typical", and I
> contend that as far as the human race as a whole goes homosexuality
> is neither usual nor typical. A sizeable minority no doubt, but not a
> majority and so not typical.

See, "typical" and "usual" are language which is not loaded. This is good
language to use. Talking about "normal" orientation *is* loaded, because it
comes with the inherent implication that what is "normal" is "good" and
"desirable". I'm sure you see where I'm going with this.

> And before anybody tells me, I used the word "norm" further on, but
> there I was referring to that which I'd just defined in the previous
> paragraph. Not a mention of homosexuality, I was trying to establish
> what I consider the spirit of the stories and arguing that deviation
> from this (used the word before and I'm using it again, in the sense
> of diverge) merits a warning.

> (me) I was trying to suggest a means for generating the least amount
> of work. If the majority would like to be warned about slash rather
> than het, then that to me is the simplest way to go. I'm tall but the
> airlines don't make (cattle-class) seats with extra legroom just for
> me, they go for the majority market. I grin and bear it. Just.

Well, I *refuse* to grin and bear it when the majority (or the Moral
Majority, who aren't) wants to deny me the right to the benefits to
marriage, the right to not be fired or otherwise discriminated against at
work based on my sexual orientation, and so on and so forth. (And for the
record, I SO feel your pain on the extra legroom thing. That's why I fly
American as much as I can, because they just added three extra inches to
their coach seats. Not comfy-comfy, but at least my knees don't touch the
seat in front any more! :D)

> On the use of the word "nonsense"  I was referring to my own light-hearted
> comments on your "warning", which I took to be light-hearted in content!

At this point I'll just say that it's *extremely* difficult to pick up
sarcasm, humor, and other tone-of-voice and body language-related notes from
plain text. It's even more difficult when we consider that there are
multiple cultural expectations at work here with regard to things being
taken jocularly or seriously. Please, if you are going to try to inject
humor, make it a bit clearer for those who come from different cultures from
yourself. Use an emoticon (:D, :P) or say *grins* or *winks* or (just
kidding, folks), or use words to make it clear.

> We can of course disagree on what the majority are offended by (I
> guess a few hard facts would be useful, but I fear they will be hard
> to come by) but, if a majority votes (say) for warnings for
> heterosexual sex/kissing/cuddling or whatever, that's fine by me,
> I'll go with the flow. My vote would be against such warnings, but
> maybe I'm in the minority.

I'm curious ? how do you go about finding that majority, and that vote? And
who gets to vote? What is the electorate here? Members of a fanfiction site?
Anyone who wanders along and clicks? Is the voting tied to IP address or
not?

> I note that you cite the over-13 readership - it's my opinion that a
> substantial portion of the readership are under-14. And I think they
> need warnings. 

No, they need responsible parents who monitor their internet usage. See my
reply to Diana's post.

> If we were talking face-to-face these misunderstandings either wouldn't occur
> (body language, etc etc) or there'd be a raised eyebrow and a quick
> clarification. And quite probably nobody would notice a particular use of a
> word anyway (e.g. deviates).

Yes to the first sentence, no to the second. I would have picked you up on
the words "normal", "deviate", "majority" and so on, and you'd have
clarified 

> When it's being done via Email,
> people have time to brood and misread (and the author has no chance
> to clarify until the perceived hurt has been done). Email (or
> whatever you want to call a Yahoo group) does mean one has to be
> careful I guess, but I draw the line at having my lawyer and a
> linguist standing at my shoulder as I type. Perhaps one has to be a
> little more thick-skinned if one attends a Yahoo group, or at least
> ask for confirmation of what is seen as a slight or attack.

Or, alternatively, as our admin files suggest, people could be more
selective with their use of overly-loaded language.
 
> I dealt with "normal" and "abnormal" above in response to Saitaina. For
> emphasis, note that I quite deliberately did _not_ use the word abnormal. You
> introduced the word, not me.

I'm sorry, but I consider the word "abnormal" to be the direct opposite of
"normal". Checking with my Latin dictionary and Thesaurus, the latter lists
it as an antonym.

> I do know people who object to (or are at least offended by) descriptions of
> homosexual pairings but I don't know anybody who objects to inter-racial
> coupling. It's not to say that such bigots don't exist, but I can only speak
> from my own experience.

Right, it's here that I will ask for clarification. Your words make me think
that you believe that someone who objects to inter-racial coupling is a
bigot, but someone who objects to descriptions of homosexual pairings is
not. If that is what you meant, that is an UNBELIEVABLE double-standard. I
refuse to pander to such a double standard. Hate is hate. Bigotry is
bigotry. 

> It's just that any gay behaviour is "not normal" (i.e. not what the majority
> do) and certainly not in the (current) spirit of the story, so I feel it
> should be pointed out.

Once again, it would be very helpful if you refrained from using "normal"
rhetoric. Perhaps, instead, "gay people are not in the majority"? But then,
unfortunately, you would lose your justification for things not being in the
spirit of the story. Because society *likes* minorities, and frowns on
people who *don't like* minorities. And action that people take to forcibly
separate minorities and their interests from the majority is called
"discrimination" or, when applied to people of different ethnic backgrounds,
"racism". And, in society, that too is frowned upon.

> You obviously disagree. Fine by me. I think I read some of your
> FFs a while ago and as far as I remember they all carried prominent
> warnings. So perhaps you too agree at times on this?

I have at no point argued that ratings and pairings should not be displayed
prominently. Indeed, my "Not Just a River in Egypt" is rated R and has very
prominent warnings about sex and language: "Not Just A River In Egypt is
written for an adult audience. The adult characters use frequent explicit
language to refer to sexual situations throughout."

I *don't* feel that fics should be warned simply because they contain gay
material. Pairings, yes. But "random gay people in the background", or "male
character occasionally has thoughts about other men"? No.

> (me) Certainly was! But not using it in the sense you have fastened
> on (I guess your blood was boiling by the time you'd waded this far
> through my post :). It was simply used in the sense of "diverge"
> or "differ". Your reading never occurred to me. Again, I think you're
> being a little over-sensitive here.

One is often accused of being oversensitive when objecting to language with
loaded implications like "deviate". Less than fifty years ago, 'treatment'
for 'deviates' like homosexuals included electro-shock therapy. I'm sure you
can understand why the loaded implications attached to your words made me
object to them.

> And, while I've got your attention, I think the (Tyke) phrase
> is "There's nowt _so_ queer as folk". Just though I'd mention that,
> it keeps grating on me, quite prepared to be proved wrong, it's your
> sig, do with it as you will :)

*grins* D'you know, that's why my inner Tyke told me too, but the Oxford
Dictionary of Quotations proved me wrong.

Moving on to clio's points, under a new subject...

--John
______________________________________

Queer as John || john at queerasjohn.com

AIM, YM & LJ @ QueerAsJohn || www.queerasjohn.com

"There's nowt as queer as folk."  --English proverb
______________________________________




From rvotaw at i-55.com  Sun Jan 12 20:01:21 2003
From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 14:01:21 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Lucky me!
References: <20030112104120.23309.qmail@web41103.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <007e01c2ba75$61896750$8b9ecdd1@RVotaw>

Neth wrote:

> I went to a Value Village (it's like a goodwill) and,
> amid the toys and dolls, found a complete boxed set of
> Sorcerer's Stone on tape! It cost four dollars, which
> cut heavy into my ten buck limit I had set that day,
> but it was worth it! I think a got a good deal. ^^ 

Wow, that is quite a bargain!  Our local Wal-Mart just started a good clearance in the toy section.  I got the Whomping Willow game for $5.00.  It's pretty fun, too.  Kind of addictive! The action figures were marked down to $3, unfortuantely I'd already bought them all at full price.  I bought another Quidditch George, though, since I'd never found Quidditch Fred (for a reasonable price at least) and once out of the package he became Fred. :)

Richelle




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From simon.hp at virgin.net  Sun Jan 12 20:31:50 2003
From: simon.hp at virgin.net (Simon Branford <simon.hp@virgin.net>)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 20:31:50 -0000
Subject: Fanfics with slash & sex...I don't get it
In-Reply-To: <avsa17+fckl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <avsjbm+10tjr@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Haggridd 
<jkusalavagemd at y...>" <jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Simon Branford 
> <simon.hp at v...>" <simon.hp at v...> wrote:
> > --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Haggridd wrote:
> > > It is that the fanfics should follow the spirit of the original 
> > > story (Thank you, ER!).  It is for this reason that slash 
> > > should carry content labels.  Having read the original stories, 
> > > one has certain expectation that deserve to be honored.  
> > 
> > So far in the story we have seen couples kissing (and only a few 
> > of those). This implies that any fic containing more than this 
> > should include a suitable warning, because it is not 
> > following 'the spirit of the original story'. Whether or not a 
> > rating of R or NC17 constitutes such a warning is up for 
> > discussion, but not terribly important.
> > 
> Simon, it is not that there is kissing per se, but the entire 
> manner in which JKR handles it, which is in an "innocent" (for want 
> of a better term) prepubescent (at least up til now) fashion.  This 
> may well change as Harry gets older, but this has been the case at 
> least up through GoF.  Even the one adult romance, that of Hagrid 
> and Maxime, has been presented in an innocent, pre-bite-of-apple 
> fashion. R vsersus NC17 has no bearing on the stories so far.  If 
> you are going to borrow movie ratings as they are applied today, 
> the series would be PG at most, at least with regard to sexuality.  
> The "tube of goo" threatens that image in a most basic way and, I 
> contend, is contrary to what has been written by JKR.

My comment about NC17 or R is not in relation to if the series has 
got that far (I agree that it has not) it is over whether a fic which 
states that it is rated as either of those is thus providing enough 
of a warning to readers about the likely content in relation to the 
orginal series or whether further warning are required (making it 
more explicit as to what the warning is about). The reason for 
borrowing from film ratings is that there seems to be a reasonably 
common agreement as to what each rating means and that many people 
use as the ratings on various fic sites.



> > I get the impression, Haggridd, that you believe the original 
> > stories to contain nothing homosexual (whether same sex couples 
> > kissing, showing feelings towards each other or more). I also 
> > know that other feel similarly. However there is a significant 
> > group of people who would (and do) disagree with this view.
> > 
> You are precisely correct.  I believe the original stories contain 
> nothing homosexual.  
> Every "example" that I have seen so far has been either an instance 
> of wishful thinking, or the assertion that an absence of JKR's 
> explicitly ruling out homosexual actions, intentions, thoughts, 
> etc. in an interaction between characters means that there can be, 
> should be, MUST BE a gay theme underlining the interaction.  To 
> resurrect another line from a poster on the mother list, "sometimes 
> a cigar is just a cigar."

> > > It is that the fanfics should follow the spirit of the original 
> > > story (Thank you, ER!).  It is for this reason that slash 
> > > should carry content labels.  Having read the original stories, 
> > > one has certain expectation that deserve to be honored.  

It is here that my main point, which got rather mislaid in total 
inaccuracy, on my part, last time, should have been. The statement 
that 'slash should carry content labels' is what I did not agree, 
because of the reasoning. If we say that it is not in the spirit of 
the original story then I feel we are missing a lot. Sexual activity 
of any nature, beyond kissing, has not been seen thus far. And so it 
would seem much more correct for the statement to have instead 
been 'any sexual activity, beyond kissing, should carry a content 
label'.



> > So who is right on what the original series shows and what its 
> > spirit is?
> 
> Why, that is and should be the point of a friendly, lively 
> discussion, not a food fight.

Not seen any flying food in this direction. Have been too busy eating 
it :)



> I would enjoy and find it intellectually stimulating to agrue from 
> the text any passage that you feel supports a gay relationship in 
> the stories by commission, not omission.  

You are unlikely to get such a discussion from me. I am not one of 
the people putting forward such ideas and I am not entirely sure that 
I agree with them. I just brought them into the debate.



> p.s.  Are you the same Simon who posted on the FAP "Homophobes and 
> where tO kick them" thread?  I thought you were very reasonable 
> there.  I hope you thought the same of me.

Nope, do not think I have posted on that thread (or if I did it must 
have been quite a while back, as it is not something I remember).



Clio:
> Anyway, I think that readers have a right to be warned if Harry and 
> Draco are all of a sudden have decided to be gay in a fic. Same as 
> I would like to be warned if a story takes place in an alternative 
> universe or if Dumbledore was married to Poppy out of the blue. It 
> is like stating the premises that fic is working under. 

I feel that this is a different matter. Such topics are talking about 
providing a back history for the fic and, as far as I know, the 
discussion I have been having solely concerns where the fic will go 
from such a starting point and not where it is starting from.

The question I believe that I have been talking about is whether or 
not an author would have to reveal at the beginning of the fic if 
they intend to have Harry and Draco in a gay relationship later in 
the fic. The discussion solely of giving warning as to the likely 
content of the fic will go.

Any fic starting written for year 5 of the trio will have an already 
known starting point. Should an author warn the auidence if there is 
going to be a gay relationship (e.g. Harry/Draco) in the fic? Should 
an author warn the auidence if there is going to be a het 
realtionship (e.g. Ginny/Seamus) in the fic? Even if both have the 
characters going as far (in terms of sexual activities)?


On a slightly side note would you ask Joanne Rowling to warn you 
before hand if one of the things you are going to find out in OotP is 
that Albus and Poppy are a married couple? If not then why ask the 
same from a fanfic author?



Haggridd:
> Simon:
> > Amy:
> > > tongue in cheek
> > 
> > Indeed and, I find, it is often the best place for the tongue to 
> > be :P
> 
>whose cheek?

It would not be for the gentleman to reveal such a detail!



Simon




From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com  Sun Jan 12 20:56:12 2003
From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent <psychic_serpent@yahoo.com>)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 20:56:12 -0000
Subject: Fanfics, ratings & heated responses
In-Reply-To: <avs0j0+i62q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <avskpc+csec@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Diana <dianasdolls at y...>" 
<dianasdolls at y...> wrote:
 > ER expressed her opinion that there should be sufficient warnings 
> on fanfics to forewarn possible readers in case that fanfic 
> contains something they wouldn't want to read, for whatever 
> reason, with an emphasis on labelling slash fanfics, especially 
> ones containing sex.
> 
> John, and then later Heidi responded that they felt ER was 
> expressing possibly homophobic opinions about fanfic labelling.  
> 
> Haggrid then chimed in that she could see what ER was trying to 
> say, even though her word choice may have been poor.

I think the poor reaction may have been because the emphasis was on 
labeling slash fanfics, and it seems that that is desired regardless 
of whether there is sex in the work.  This implies that the very 
idea of two people of the same gender expressing affection for each 
other, whether simple proclamations of love, hand-holding, or some 
level of sexual activity, is inherently less desirable to the reader 
in question than any of these activities taking place between two 
people in a mixed-gender couple.  When this sentiment is expressed 
it WILL come across as homophobia.  

As a heterosexual gay-rights activist, I see this in the media all 
the time; when two men married on "Northern Exposure" the producers 
of the show were worried about showing them kissing at the 
conclusion of the ceremony, and so the audience did not see that; in 
contrast, the numerous daytime soaps on the air at that time showed 
men and women cavorting in various stages of undress, cheating on 
spouses and other lovers, etc.  The program with the two men 
pledging their love and commitment to each other was on at ten 
o'clock at night, not during the day when many impressionable 
children could see it (unlike the soaps), yet this blatant double-
standard was perpetuated.  

The climate on American television is not as repressive now as it 
was at that time, but it's still unlikely that we're going to see 
much in the way of gay role-models on shows that are targeted at 
kids, which hurts both gay kids (who do not see people like them in 
positive roles) and heterosexual kids (who could miss out on the 
opportunity to be more open-minded and have a wide variety of other 
kids for friends, including gay kids).

> If I've mis-characterized your responses to each other, I 
> apologize, I'm just trying to get to the root of this fierce 
> debate, that is bordering on a mini-war of words.  Since I seem to 
> have kicked off this scuffle by my original post stating that I 
> just didn't understand and had no desire to read slash fanfics or 
> fanfics with lots of sex, regardless of the pairings, I'll post 
> again on this topic and on the other posts.  
> 
> First off, I would like to point out that not wanting to read 
> about same-sex couples having sex does not make a person a 
> homophobe.  I wouldn't want to read about my college astronomy 
> professor getting it on with my milkman or John Rhys-Davies having 
> an interlude with Mr. Whipple, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't 
> enjoy reading about two gay characters I like reading about doing 
> the deed.  The same with heterosexual characters, I definitely 
> wouldn't want to read about my own parents having sex, or, for 
> example, Margaret Thatcher having sex with George Bush, but that 
> doesn't mean I dislike heterosexual pairings.  It just means that 
> I prefer some pairings over other pairings, or I prefer to read 
> about pairings that I find truly plausible, exciting or personally 
> stimulating to me.  Or maybe I prefer not to read about sexual 
> pairings at all for my own personal reasons.  

If you prefer not to read sexual situations at all, that is your 
choice, of course, but the other person weighing in on this, 
according to your paraphrase, wanted labeling of slash 
fanfics, "especially" those with sex.  This phrasing implies a 
problem with same-gender relationships in general, not sexual 
relationships in general, which you are describing as your 
preference.  This is perhaps where the impression is created that 
the person wanting the slash fics clearly labeled is saying this 
because of being anti-gay.  If one does not want to create this 
impression, then one should not single out stories about gay 
relationships.

> Regardless of what I choose to read, I should be able to have a 
> rough idea of what to expect if choosing to read a work of amateur 
> fiction about characters I've already got my mind set about.  I've 
> read all four books and decided for myself what sexual orientation 
> some the characters are and who they're attracted to, and I don't 
> welcome someone barging into my vision and telling me I've got it 
> all wrong. Or, worse, thrusting images into my mind of scenes I 
> definitely don't want to be part of my Harry Potter experience. 

Well, for that matter, just about any preconceived idea you have 
from reading the books could be dashed by reading fanfiction.  I 
have Hogwarts pretty firmly fixed in my head in Scotland, for 
instance, but a fanfic writer may think that it is in London.  I am 
unlikely to read that fic, once I discover something like this that 
seems like an error to me.  Should I require that the author "warn" 
me ahead of time that they are setting Hogwarts in London?  Why 
should the author be required to do ANYTHING other than entice you 
to read?  If you're going to be given the entire outline of the 
story, full of spoilers, so you can decide whether you want to read 
it--what, precisely, would be the point of actually reading it?  If 
you have ideas about the Potterverse that are that firm and do not 
want them corrupted, perhaps you should not read fanfic.  (And I say 
that as a fanfiction author.)

> This is where rating fanfiction gets tricky.  But not that 
> tricky.  If I don't want to read stories with specific pairings, I 
> should be able to look through the list and be able to identify 
> pairings that I am not interested in.  Would you enjoy browsing 
> through a book store if you had to look through a list of synopses 
> of all the books in there, all mixed up to boot?  

This is why one reads reviews.  Just as you can read the New York 
Times Book Review, or go on Amazon and read reviews for books, you 
can go on Fiction Alley and read reviews people have already posted 
for fanfics.  The reactions other people are having to the writing 
may give you an idea of what to expect (if you don't mind spoilers, 
and it sounds like you are DEMANDING spoilers).  Authors who do not 
reveal everything in their summaries probably want to spring 
surprises on their readers.  I recently had someone tell me how out-
of-character they thought some characters were in early chapters of 
a fic wherein the explanation for this does not arrive until about 
twenty chapters later.  If I'd told them ahead of time that there 
was a reason for this, they might have stuck around, true, but I 
stand by my decision to be mysterious. <g>  JKR has written 
mysteries, essentially, but would you want her to reveal the 
solution in the blurb on the dust jacket, or read for yourself and 
enjoy the unfolding of the story?

> Realistically, most fanfic sites are not huge book stores with 
> millions of dollars to spend on personel to sort and stock books 
> into neat little categories.  For this reason, massive fanfic 
> sites that have every single story sorted by all pairings 
> contained within and then by how graphic the story as far as sex 
> and violence will probably never actually exist.  It's a nice 
> idea, but it ain't going to happen.  

As a Fiction Alley Mod, I can recommend that you visit the Sorting 
Hat on Fiction Alley Park.  Authors voluntarily post there with 
information on the pairings in their fics, the eras in which they 
take place, lead characters, summaries, ratings and any warnings 
concerning language, violence and/or sexual activity.  There are 
also keywords in all of the files uploaded to Fiction Alley, and you 
can do a Google search for things you particularly want.   

> How to make it work, then?  Well, start by making the 
> pairings and ratings clear BEFORE a synopsis is given.  Links to a 
> synopsis can be anchored on the same page, just further down.  Why 
> do I suggest this?  Because I visited the fictionalley website 
> just a few days ago after all the heated discussion on this list.  
> While casually browsing the synopses, and still unfamiliar with 
> the layout and the placement of warnings and pairings, I read some 
> synopses [basiclly blurbs to try to get the browser to read the 
> story] and winced at the unwanted images that sprang to mind when 
> I read a few of them.  I will spare others the same fate by not 
> quoting a couple I read there. 

God, you make it sound so bad.  Again, I do not think you want 
anything less than Cliff Notes of fanfics.  The information you are 
asking for would many times provide massive spoilers for the story.  
I'm sorry that you were wincing; I proofread each and every summary 
that is posted on Ficton Alley before uploading this list of 
summaries, and yes, some pairings are things I wouldn't want to read 
because there are some characters whom I consider to be somewhat 
asexual and I want to keep it that way in the Potterverse that lives 
in my head <g>.  However, you now seem to be saying that you're 
upset that the information about these pairings was given, because 
it put unwelcome images into your mind.  I'm afraid that asking to 
be told what's in the fics and also complaining about the 
information being given to you is somewhat contradictory, and I'm 
not sure anyone will be able to please you at this rate.

> As for the ratings for sexual and violent content, we are [almost] 
> all adults on this list and can handle most things, even if the 
> pairings or content isn't our usual preference, but children, who 
> can and do access fanfic sites on the internet can't discern those 
> differences as well and might think they can handle more than they 
> really can or just don't know what the ratings mean.  
> Clear, accurate, ratings would help solve this problem a great 
> deal, assuming children didn't seek out the most explicitly rated 
> stories just because of the "need to see what that stuff is about" 
> factor.

On Fiction Alley, we have a question that pops up on the screen when 
any user clicks on an R-rated fic, asking whether the reader is over 
the age of seventeen.  If the reader answers the question honestly, 
there should be no problem.  The question is there for a reason.  I 
believe that adequate precautions have been taken against children 
seeing material they probably would not be allowed to view in a 
movie theatre without their parents actually taking them; if you are 
not supervising your child's internet use, that is a decision that 
you might need to reexamine, but that is an issue quite apart from 
the precautions that have been taken at Fiction Alley and whether a 
given child is being honest in answering a question about age.  

> My son is nine and he does not know what the term slash when 
> applied to fiction means.  I have not had the opportunity or 
> desire to explain it just yet.  He does know about heterosexual 
> sex and homosexuality, but not every explicit detail - there's no 
> need for that until he needs more information and asks for it, 
> then I'll answer his questions.  He does not need to find a fanfic 
> site and read all these synopses.  The ones he doesn't understand 
> would puzzle him and the ones he does understand would 
> considerably confuse him.  I don't think stumbling upon a slash 
> fanfic, a non-graphic one, would make him gay or mess him up for 
> life - that's silly.  However, I don't want to get into a bunch of 
> topics and explanations he's not ready yet to comprehend for many, 
> many reasons.

Well, I cannot tell you how to raise your child, but I can say that 
it is probably better to explain homosexuality sooner rather than 
later.  Our children have gone to a number of same-gender weddings 
with us, and some dear friends at our church (both women) are 
raising their daughter together; our kids know to call both of these 
women collectively the child's "moms."  Explaining to a child that 
sometimes two women love each other and decide to make a life and a 
family together, and sometimes two men decide to do the same is 
really not as hard as you might think.  In fact, it will probably 
seem quite consistent to them--love is what makes a family.  Kids 
are wonderfully without guile and preconceptions about these things 
the younger you speak to them about it.  Raising your children to be 
blind to differences between people is not easy, but very 
worthwhile.  And sometimes they can really surprise you.

I was shocked at one point in my son's education when he told me he 
couldn't do a report for Black History Month on a black person he 
looked up to because he didn't know any.  (Many teachers at his 
school are black, and the majority of the children.)  I pointed out 
to him that his favorite pre-school teacher, still at the same 
school, would be an excellent choice, and he informed me that she 
wasn't black!  He didn't see any difference.  I was almost upset 
after that that he had an assignment that FORCED him to start seeing 
differences where he had previously been blind to them.  Teaching 
children that color does not matter and that the gender of the 
people who love each other does not matter will be its own reward, 
trust me.

Our entire family had a fabulous time attending a wedding at our 
church for two young women of whom we are very fond.  Our kids had a 
great time dancing at the reception and mugging for the cameras.  We 
received a lovely picture of the brides in the mail and our kids 
insisted on giving it a place of honor with our displayed Christmas 
cards.  I am very proud of the way they are turning out and am glad 
that we are able to set a good example for them.
 
> In my original post, I may not have clearly expressed myself that 
> others are free to write and read what they like, just I expect to 
> do the same.  If I don't want to read it, I don't have to.  If I 
> don't understand the appeal of some of it, then I just don't.  If 
> it appeals to you, read away.   

Being selective is fine.  I'm very selective in what I read.  It 
just seems to me that you want to be told about a tremendous amount 
of minutiae in order not to risk being offended on any level.  This 
will probably never happen.  If JKR includes something in a future 
book that interferes with your mental image of the "reality" of the 
Potterverse, will you stop reading?  It certainly sounds like you 
might.  

Again, I think that you should understand that when a certain group 
is singled out (like slash fics) as a reason why you want labeling 
it is very difficult to avoid seeming discriminatory.  There are 
ample opportunities to search for fics online that you might be 
interested in, and supervising children below the age of 13 while 
they're online is something I recommend anyway, as a mom.  (I don't 
let my kids read my R-rated fics, for instance).  If you're looking 
for ways to be offended, I predict that you will be.  Attitude 
accounts for quite a lot.  Abraham Lincoln said we should look for 
the good in people; perhaps we should look for the good in fiction 
as well, and remember that fanfiction in particular is a labor of 
love and written for the enjoyment of both the author and readers, 
rather than a commercial venture.  It's supposed to be fun, so if 
you're not having fun, perhaps you should reconsider.

--Barb

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent
http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb





From ression at hotmail.com  Sun Jan 12 21:18:37 2003
From: ression at hotmail.com (ER <ression@hotmail.com>)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 21:18:37 -0000
Subject: Fanfics with slash & sex...I don't get it - getting far off the actual topic
In-Reply-To: <avsabe+v38c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <avsm3d+pvm7@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Haggridd 
<jkusalavagemd at y...>" <jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:


> > No lesbian couples have 
> > been so much as hinted at, though you have to wonder about 
Parvati 
> > and Lavender. I mean, *lavender.* Is that a wink wink nudge 
nudge 
> > or what?
> 

I always thought that the names of many of the characters were 
carefully chosen by JK so as to be a little unusual, to avoid the 
possibility of kids with the same name getting teased. Harry and Ron -
 no problem, they're super-heroes. But look at Hermione, not such a 
common name is it (outside of the Classics). My guess is that this is 
simply because, certainly in the early books, Hermione was a bit of a 
swot and we all know how horrid swots are :) JK was being careful 
again IMHO.

ER





From ression at hotmail.com  Sun Jan 12 21:23:13 2003
From: ression at hotmail.com (ER <ression@hotmail.com>)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 21:23:13 -0000
Subject: Fanfics with slash & sex...I don't get it
In-Reply-To: <avsa17+fckl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <avsmc1+kvu5@eGroups.com>

>> In GoF (Yule Ball chapter) we see Sinistra and Vector dancing 
>> together. Quite a few people believe that this shows a happily 
>> attached lesbian couple dancing the night away with their students.
>>
>How many dances did you go to in high school-- or comprehensive 
>school, or public school-- wherre the girls danced together, either 
>from shyness on the boys' part, or an imbalance of gender ration, or 
>sheer delight in the music? Were theses girls all lesbians? But 
>y'know, you are right, it certainly could be. If so, JKR surely 
>didn't dwell much on it. Sinestra and Vector certainly don't appear 
>as an item anywhere in the books, do they? I think it is a 
>legitimate item of discussion.

Exactly what I was going to say, but forgot. In fact I think the real 
reason here is simply that men can't dance, and very often don't want 
to. Perhaps the female members could enlighten us on this point?

ER




From ression at hotmail.com  Sun Jan 12 21:27:13 2003
From: ression at hotmail.com (ER <ression@hotmail.com>)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 21:27:13 -0000
Subject: Fanfics with slash & sex...I don't get it
In-Reply-To: <BA477470.5311%john@queerasjohn.com>
Message-ID: <avsmjh+iusf@eGroups.com>

Queer-as-John wrote -

>See, "typical" and "usual" are language which is not loaded. This is 
good
>language to use. Talking about "normal" orientation *is* loaded, 
because it
>comes with the inherent implication that what is "normal" is "good" 
and
>"desirable". I'm sure you see where I'm going with this.

Well I certainly see it, but I'm not sure I agree! Normal, typical 
and usage are just similar words as far as I'm concerned. Obviously 
I'm not coming at it from where you are, but it seems a bit of jump 
to consider me homophobic because of it (if that is your thesis). 
However, if it offends you, I will certainly try to  avoid use of the 
word normal when talking to you, strange as it seems to me.

"Normal" and "good" - my PC normally crashes, it normally rains in 
England, the taxman normally wants money from me - these things I do 
not consider good (except when the garden could do with a drop of 
rain).


>Well, I *refuse* to grin and bear it [snip] the right to not be 
fired or otherwise discriminated against at
work based on my sexual orientation, and so on and so forth.

You serious? Speak to your lawyer, you may never need to work again. 
This is against the law. Period.


> (And for the record, I SO feel your pain on the extra legroom 
thing. That's why I fly American as much as I can, because they just 
added three extra inches to their coach seats. Not comfy-comfy, but 
at least my knees don't touch the seat in front any more! :D)

Bad - it's going to make it harder to sue the asses off them for 
DVT :)


>> We can of course disagree on what the majority are offended by (I
>> guess a few hard facts would be useful, but I fear they will be 
hard
>> to come by) but, if a majority votes (say) for warnings for
>> heterosexual sex/kissing/cuddling or whatever, that's fine by me,
>> I'll go with the flow. My vote would be against such warnings, but
>> maybe I'm in the minority.

>I'm curious ? how do you go about finding that majority, and that 
vote? And
>who gets to vote? What is the electorate here? Members of a 
fanfiction site?
>Anyone who wanders along and clicks? Is the voting tied to IP 
address or
>not?

Pass - that's why I said they'd be hard to come by. One way to get a 
handle on this might be to trawl a few thousand Fics and see which 
ones got slated for slash content (why 'slash' BTW) and which ones 
got hammered for het content. And maybe see how many sites explicitly 
require authors to warn of slash (as opposed to adult) content. Just 
a thought, I see no easy way of doing it. And certainly a vote 
wouldn't be a good idea since the "losing side" would just 
cry "ballot stuffing".


>> I note that you cite the over-13 readership - it's my opinion that 
a
>> substantial portion of the readership are under-14. And I think 
they
>> need warnings. 

>No, they need responsible parents who monitor their internet usage. 
See my
>reply to Diana's post.

In an ideal world yes, but it ain't going to happen and we shouldn't 
(where practical) subject the child to the failings of the parent 
when we can so easily (from my POV) avoid it.

>> If we were talking face-to-face these misunderstandings either 
wouldn't occur
>> (body language, etc etc) or there'd be a raised eyebrow and a quick
>> clarification. And quite probably nobody would notice a particular 
use of a
>> word anyway (e.g. deviates).

>Yes to the first sentence, no to the second. I would have picked you 
up on
>the words "normal", "deviate", "majority" and so on, and you'd have
>clarified 

You obviously feel this deeply, but at the risk of upsetting you 
again, I feel aggrieved at the thought of being told which perfectly 
good words I can and cannot use. BTW, would you object to me calling 
you queer, or is that now acceptable? It would have been a word I 
would have avoided, but I'm beginning to see a Humpty-Dumpty world 
opening up in front of me. Gay seems to have been well and truly 
hijacked, but I hate to see other words going the same way.

>Or, alternatively, as our admin files suggest, people could be more
>selective with their use of overly-loaded language.

But only if one knows (or indeed agrees) what is overloaded. Short of 
a direct everybody-would-agree-it's-nasty attack, I still maintain 
the immediate lack of feedback means the aggrieved party should at 
least attempt to seek clarification. If not, we'll reach the point 
where all posts are of the "See Spot run" variety (OK, tell me Spot 
is homosexual slang for something :)


>> I do know people who object to (or are at least offended by) 
descriptions of
>> homosexual pairings but I don't know anybody who objects to inter-
racial
>> coupling. It's not to say that such bigots don't exist, but I can 
only speak
>> from my own experience.

>Right, it's here that I will ask for clarification. Your words make 
me think
>that you believe that someone who objects to inter-racial coupling 
is a
>bigot, but someone who objects to descriptions of homosexual 
pairings is
>not. If that is what you meant, that is an UNBELIEVABLE double-
standard. I
>refuse to pander to such a double standard. Hate is hate. Bigotry is
>bigotry. 

Nope, not what I meant, nor what I said. I just said that hatred 
based on race is bigoted. You're (IMHO) being touchy again. At least 
you asked for clarification this time :)

 
>Once again, it would be very helpful if you refrained from 
using "normal" rhetoric. Perhaps, instead, "gay people are not in the 
majority"? But then, unfortunately, you would lose your justification 
for things not being in the spirit of the story. 

You've lost me here - explain please.


>Because society *likes* minorities, and frowns on people who *don't 
like* minorities.

Do you think that society as a whole (not just the educated liberal-
minded portion) likes homosexuals (as in actively likes as opposed to 
doesn't care/never gives it a thought) and frowns on people who don't 
like them? I'd be surprised if this is true. More generally is there 
any reason why people should _like_ minorities? Being in a minority 
doesn't seem a very useful criterion for liking somebody. Torturers 
are (one hopes) in the minority, but one really shouldn't like them. 
People should be liked because of themselves and how they conduct 
their life. By your argument you're preaching love of the BNP (read 
Klu-Klux clan in America). This obviously isn't what you mean, but 
perhaps you could clarify what you do mean.

>I *don't* feel that fics should be warned simply because they 
contain gay
>material. Pairings, yes. But "random gay people in the background", 
or "male
>character occasionally has thoughts about other men"? No.

Agreed, if it is adult fic, but not if it is young fic. I guess we 
just must disagree here.


>One is often accused of being oversensitive when objecting to 
language with
>loaded implications like "deviate". Less than fifty years 
ago, 'treatment'
>for 'deviates' like homosexuals included electro-shock therapy. I'm 
sure you
>can understand why the loaded implications attached to your words 
made me
>object to them.

I can understand, but you must agree it is very difficult, in a 
practical sense, for me to know in advance what you regard 
as "loaded". Today is the first time I've heard a homosexual object 
to my language or use of the word "normal". Though equally today is 
the first time that I've ever being involved in a written exchange on 
the subject with a homosexual. I'd still disagree with your earlier 
comment that you'd have picked me up on these words in face-to-face 
conversation :)

>> And, while I've got your attention, I think the (Tyke) phrase
>> is "There's nowt _so_ queer as folk". Just though I'd mention that,
>> it keeps grating on me, quite prepared to be proved wrong, it's 
your
>> sig, do with it as you will :)

>*grins* D'you know, that's why my inner Tyke told me too, but the 
Oxford
>Dictionary of Quotations proved me wrong.

Sheesh, you don't believe what you read do you ;) What would 
Southerners know about it! Go with your inner feelings!


ER, who is not going to write anything after his signature.




From ression at hotmail.com  Sun Jan 12 21:29:04 2003
From: ression at hotmail.com (ER <ression@hotmail.com>)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 21:29:04 -0000
Subject: Fanfics with slash & sex...I don't get it
In-Reply-To: <F210QIGxAJyifSNI8290001b9eb@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <avsmn0+10632@eGroups.com>

"bel" wrote -

> IMO, this is leading up to making a point that every person might 
find something different to get offended by. Personally, I would be 
very offended if JKR would write the Slytherins (any of them) as 
smokers, or as addicted to drugs, or alcoholics. It just doesn't add 
up.

Strange, if you'd asked me I'd have said that was just _their_ sort 
of thing! You're a Slytherin fan, right?

>And another thing that would offend me is if Blaize turned out to be 
a girl. (there are many other things, but these are just my 
conceptions of the characters, and I would go on reading the series 
regardless, just cos I like it :)).

Blaize???


> I agree. Warnings are in place, to avoid something that ickles you. 
Nothing wrong with that.

I agree too!

>>JK's books are designed to be read by children and I think 
the "violence" is pantomime stuff.

> No it isn't! The violence there is very real.

I guess this is just a question of how one reads it. Maybe I'm just 
jaded, but to me there are no _nasty_ death scenes or maimings in the 
book. Harry gets stabbed with a basilisks fang or whatever and hey-
presto there's a ruddy bird on his shoulder giving CPR :) But 
obviously everybody reacts differently. I think "Heidi Tandy" said 
earlier that when they brought Cedric's body back, that made her cry. 
This is simply something I can't understand :( But, I still love the 
books!

>*gags, spluttering her tea all over the keyboard*
Excuse me?? "big deal"? "Who cared about him?"??? Maybe the "little 
we did know was ... popped into GoF just to make him slightly less of 
a minor-character when he did get killed" but he *did* get  killed. 
And he was harmless. And his death was pointless and stupid. And 
ruthless.

Not sure it was pointless, JK probably put it there for a reason, 
it's just that it didn't give me goosebumps. Honest.

>If you feel "big-deal" and "who cares about him" in regards to 
Cedric, how do you feel about the Riddle's Gardener, Frank? was he 
insubstantial and meaningless too?

I know nothing of him, so I can't really comment. But his death 
didn't upset me. Did it move you? I'm sure you must think I'm a 
heartless old bastard, but, really, I'm not :) It just that none of 
these death scenes has anything to grab at me inner vitals.

> Maybe except History of Magic ;).

Yeah, you're right there. Goblin Revolutions must be about as 
interesting as the Corn Laws, especially at age 14 or so. A little 
like being made to read Jane Eyre at that age too! And this just 
reminds of something I thought of once (sad or what) - do the 
Hogwarts' pupils have English or Maths lessons? Or are they just 
expect to write literate yard-long essays without any teaching on the 
subject of grammar and wotnot?

 
>We have no way of knowing that [re bullying]. What about the 
Marauders tormenting Snape? 
or Draco and his cronies tormenting Neville?

I'd argue (again) that it's not sustained, and that an occasional bit 
of roughing up is all part of learning to cope with life and some of 
the unpleasant people that populate it, but I suppose we just don't 
know. And I suppose on those grounds, now I think about it, that 
might mean that there is bullying since there would be in a real 
school. Strange in a way that JK hasn't tackled this more, her being 
an ex-school-teacher and all that. But (he suddenly thinks), she 
didn't to upset some of her younger readers who are being bullied?


>Well, just the fact that it's *fanfic* makes it non-canon, doesn't 
it? No one but JKR can write exactly what JKR has in mind. Everything 
else is just personal interpretation, even TCTMNBN.

Taken to the nth-degree, no doubt, but I think more generally people 
can abide by what canon is available and try and write the characters 
as in-character as they can. Perhaps we need a FanFriction category!

> I never lost a good night's sleep.

Give it twenty years or so ...

> But now I'm determined to write a fic exploring that particular 
ship [Harry/Neville] *g*)

Do let us now when you're finished. Just tag a "warning" on the 
front ;)


ER





From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk  Sun Jan 12 21:47:41 2003
From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 21:47:41 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Fanfics with slash & sex...I don't get it
References: <avsmn0+10632@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3E21E27D.000001.78831@monica>



-------Original Message-------

From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
Date: 12 January 2003 21:29:09
To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Fanfics with slash & sex...I don't get it


>*gags, spluttering her tea all over the keyboard*
Excuse me?? "big deal"? "Who cared about him?"??? Maybe the "little 
we did know was ... popped into GoF just to make him slightly less of 
a minor-character when he did get killed" but he *did* get killed. 
And he was harmless. And his death was pointless and stupid. And 
ruthless.

Not sure it was pointless, JK probably put it there for a reason, 
it's just that it didn't give me goosebumps. Honest.

I don't think that's what she meant by pointless. (I could be wrong, but
that's not how I read it) I think she meant it in the sense of a senseless
death - Voldemort had no real reason to kill him other than the fact that he
had no reason *not* to.
He wasn't a threat but Voldemort killed him because he could.
In the sense of the book of course it wasn't pointless - it very quickly and
very simply showed us what kind of an evil Voldemort really was. It showed
us that he doesn't just kill because he needs to or because someone's a
threat but because he can. That the act itself was committed so casually
showed us his character far more easily than pages of talking could have
done. A very nice exampl of show don't tell. IMHO a good author is one who
can write one short scene about a character and leave you *knowing* so much
about them that it would have taken pages for him/her to describe that
character.

K



From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Sun Jan 12 22:10:36 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve <bboy_mn@yahoo.com>)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 22:10:36 -0000
Subject: Recommend - A Confederacy of Dunces by Toole
Message-ID: <avsp4s+vqvh@eGroups.com>

Can I recommend a book to everyone? If you are looking for something
interesting to read, I HIGHLY recommend 'A Confereracy of Dunces' by
John Kennedy Toole.

This book is hysterically LAUGH OUT LOUD funny. It won  a Pulitzer
Prize for comedy. And, you know they don't just hand out Pulitzer
Prizes like peanuts at a ball game. 

"What a delight, what a roaring, rollicking, footstomping wonder this
book is? I laughed until my sides ached and then I laughed on."
-Henry Kisor, 'Chicago Sun-Times'

That just about says it all. I've read this book three times, and when
I read it again last night, I laughed until I had tears in my eyes. 

If this book doesn't make you laugh out loud, then, I swear, you are
made of stone.

Set in New Orleans, it is the most unlikely collection of oddballs and
misfits to ever grace the written page.

The main character is the hyper-intellectual, slovenly, slothful
self-prcalimed savior of the modern world, who demands that the world
conform to his view of decency and geometry. A man out of place, out
of time, and thoroughly out of his cake eating, Dr. Nut drinking,
ranting raving mind. Meet Mr. Ignatius J. Reilly.

"This story bursts with wholly original characters, denizens of New
Orleans' lower depths, incredibly true-to-life dialogue, and the
zaniest series of high and low comic advantures." 
-Henry Kisor - 'Chicago Sun-Times'

"A masterwork of comedy.... The novel astonishes with its
inventiveness, it's lives in the play of it's voices, 'A Confederacy
of Dunces' in nothing less than a grand comic fugue."
-The New York Times Book Review

I'm not kidding, it is not humanly possible to read this book and not
laugh out loud.

"I found myself laughing out loud again and again as I read this
ribald book" - The CHRISTIAN Science Monitor



"A Confederacy of Dunces" by John Kennedy Toole
An Evergreen Book Published by Grove Press
Copyright 1980
First Edtition 1987

Sadly the author only wrote on other book before his untimely death by
tragic circumstances. His other book "The Neon Bible" is equal in it's
absurdity and hilarity. I highly recommend them both. The author was
an unprecidented genius, and the loss of his life is a monumental loss
to the world of literature.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

bboy_mn







From urbana at charter.net  Sun Jan 12 22:22:18 2003
From: urbana at charter.net (Anne <urbana@charter.net>)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 22:22:18 -0000
Subject: Fanfics with slash & sex...I don't get it
In-Reply-To: <F210QIGxAJyifSNI8290001b9eb@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <avspqr+u0vk@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Meira B" <mb2910 at h...> wrote:
> ER wrote:
> Maybe upsetting to very young children, but otherwise just part of 
a fairly 
> gentle story. Cedric was killed (very cleanly and painlessly as far 
as the 
> reader is concerned), but big deal. Who cared about him? 

> Me:
> *gags, spluttering her tea all over the keyboard*
> Excuse me??
> "big deal"? "Who cared about him?"???
> Maybe the "little we did know was ... popped into GoF just to make 
him 
> slightly less of a minor-character when he did get killed" but he 
*did* get 
> killed. And he was harmless. And his death was pointless and 
stupid. And 
> ruthless.
> Tell me, ER, when you read about that high cold voice saying "kill 
the 
> spare", didn't you feel the itsy-bitiest tiny bit of goosebumps and 
chills 
> up your spine? I stared at that particular passage for who-knows-
how-long 
> before I managed to go on reading. And the suddenness is just... so 
sudden.

I've only read GoF once (so far) but I read it aloud to my daughter. 
And when I came to that part, I thought I was going to throw up. I 
think I must have paused for close to a minute (while trying to get 
my voice back so I wouldn't be sobbing) before I went on with the 
story.

> If you feel "big-deal" and "who cares about him" in regards to 
Cedric, how 
> do you feel about the Riddle's Gardener, Frank? was he 
insubstantial and 
> meaningless too?

I don't think the death of *any* character in the Potterverse 
(especially on the Light Side) is or will be insubstantial or 
meaningless. JKR plans her books too carefully to do that to us, and 
as we've discovered throughout the books, details and characters that 
may seem inconsequential at first reading often turn about to be 
crucially important later (e.g. the Weasleys-in-Egypt photo that 
shows Scabbers with a toe missing).


> and when CoS turns up in VCR, and when the PoA movie premiers...
> *waves the Ralph Fiennes for Lupin flag*


 ME TOO!! ME TOO! :-) I hope I won't be disappointed, but I won't 
hold my breath waiting for it to happen either.
> 

Back to the slash & sex discussion (which has been very interesting). 
I haven't really read much slash fic yet because ... well, hmmm... I 
guess I'm just not particularly interested in slash. Stacy Hart's 
Darkly Inclined series has some slash in it, but it's between adult 
characters and the sexual relationship is not graphic. Personally I 
don't like graphic sexuality (e.g. "soft porn" or more) among any of 
the HP characters, *especially* not the teenagers -- but that's just 
my preference. However, IMO the synopsis of the story, and especially 
the "rating", ought to be descriptive enough to help me decide 
whether I'm likely to feel squicked. I started reading one fan fic 
that had *NO* rating on it, foolishly thinking (based on the title) 
that it was PG13 at worst, and discovered that it was filled with 
extremely graphic (I'd say NC17, not just R) sexuality between 
teenage HP characters, which seriously squicked me. It was a multi-
chapter story and I stopped reading in the middle of the second 
chapter, when it seemed to me that the frequency and explicitness of 
the sex was probably going to increase through the rest of the story. 
(If anyone wants to know what story I'm referring to, I'd be glad to 
tell you offline, rather than possibly embarrass the author here in 
case s/he is a member of this group.)

Sorry, I guess I've rambled a bit. I *prefer* fan fics that are "in 
the style" of JKR in terms of both the writing and the storyline. I 
also *prefer* to know the level of sexual explicitness before I start 
reading. But that's just me. 

Anne U
(de gustibus non disputandum est)





From urbana at charter.net  Sun Jan 12 22:26:48 2003
From: urbana at charter.net (Anne <urbana@charter.net>)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 22:26:48 -0000
Subject: Recommend - A Confederacy of Dunces by Toole
In-Reply-To: <avsp4s+vqvh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <avsq39+g2ur@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Steve <bboy_mn at y...>" 
<bboy_mn at y...> wrote:
> Can I recommend a book to everyone? If you are looking for something
> interesting to read, I HIGHLY recommend 'A Confereracy of Dunces' by
> John Kennedy Toole.
> 
> This book is hysterically LAUGH OUT LOUD funny. It won  a Pulitzer
> Prize for comedy. And, you know they don't just hand out Pulitzer
> Prizes like peanuts at a ball game. 
> > 
> Set in New Orleans, it is the most unlikely collection of oddballs 
and
> misfits to ever grace the written page.
> 
> The main character is the hyper-intellectual, slovenly, slothful
> self-prcalimed savior of the modern world, who demands that the 
world
> conform to his view of decency and geometry. A man out of place, out
> of time, and thoroughly out of his cake eating, Dr. Nut drinking,
> ranting raving mind. Meet Mr. Ignatius J. Reilly.
> 

I read A Confederacy of Dunces years ago (late 1980s?) based on my 
dad's recommendation. I grew up in New Orleans and let me tell you, I 
have *known* people like Ignatius J. Reilly and some of the other 
characters. And of course being a "Yat" (native New Orleanian) 
myself, I recognized all the landmarks in the book, which made it 
even funnier to me. Yes, I laughed out loud many times reading this 
book. I also recommend it highly. 

Anne U
(imagining what Snape or Professor McGonagall might think of 
Ignatius... oh dear...)





From sjnhp at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Jan 12 22:29:52 2003
From: sjnhp at yahoo.co.uk (Simon Nickerson)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 22:29:52 +0000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: The Four Loves
In-Reply-To: <avs8p4+lhfo@eGroups.com>
References: <avr1e0+5q3b@eGroups.com> <avs8p4+lhfo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <w4T4$OUgxeI+EwF1@broadband.blueyonder.co.uk>

I do not know Greek (except for the alphabet) although I have read 
Lewis' book, and a very fine book it is too. The following is from my 
recollection of the book.

In message <avs8p4+lhfo at eGroups.com>, "Melody <Malady579 at hotmail.com>" 
<Malady579 at hotmail.com> writes
>Anne wrote:
>> I believe your sense of what the four loves are is close but can be
>> defined a little more closely.  Look back at your previous post
>>where you looked up agape -- it was defined as "Christian love."  So
>>agape would be the love of God.  A person with agape would have love
>>for God and, by extension, for his people.  Mother Theresa's love for
>>the people of Calcutta is was agape love.  So is God's love for us.
>
>I think I am starting to unravel my confusion.  See - in my wrong view
>of things, God's love is more like Storge.  It is a parent's love.

I think storge is more general than that; it means 'affection'. It is 
certainly typified by a mother's love for her child (say), but this is 
not the only possible example.

>So
>when that love was introduced to me (about two weeks ago), I got
>confused.  You know: God the Father and all.  Plus to add to the fun,
>I got confused because if you say God's love is agape, well in
>Christian eyes that love will die for you.

Agape is the type of love that used to be embodied in the word 'charity' 
(Latin 'caritas'). These days, 'charity' often means simply giving alms, 
but it used to mean an unconditional love for the unlovely. It is a love 
manifested in actions rather than in emotions.

Coming back to what you said above, God's love for man in Christianity 
is definitely agape, not storge. It is more than simply a natural love, 
as storge is. It is a love for people who have done nothing to merit it 
or deserve it.

>Now I guess I see what the idea of agape really is.  Is it a love
>bestowed on a people because of their condition or rather their
>choice?  Is it, roughly, sympathetic love?

It doesn't have to be. It can be love bestowed despite conditions and 
choices. If Harry were to go up to Voldemort and tell him that he 
forgave him for all the harm he had done him, then this would be an act 
of agape.

>Can only Christians feel agape?

No, and Christians do not practice agape as much as they should! 
Christians are commanded to love their neighbour as themselves (Matthew 
22:39); the love here is agape-love.

>Anne disagreed:
>> Well, here I will disagree.  Eros is a form of love.  Lust, on the
>> other hand, is merely wanting sex and has nothing to do with love or
>> actually caring for the other person.  True eros is *partly*
>> expressed in sexual union as well as in other ways of caring, and
>> you can have eros, philos and agape for the same person.  And, yes,
>> I think someone could certainly die for someone out of eros alone.
>
>And now I see what I did.  I used the modern day word "erotic" to
>deduce what "eros" means.  I am sorry.  I completely agree with you.
>A person *can* have agape, eros, and philo on the same person.  In
>fact, I think that is what many people dream of.  To have the person
>you marry be the one person you can amass all these loves in one
>place.  I do think "storge" is the one odd love out as it should be.
>Woody Allen aside, it is not acceptable in our society to have four
>loves in one person.

Storge is not as specific as you think (see above); I think it would be 
quite possible to love somebody in all four ways. Indeed, to quote from 
Lewis' book:

"...But I must at once correct myself. I am talking of Affection 
[storge] as it is when it exists apart from the other loves. It often 
does so exist; often not. As gin is not only a drink in itself but also 
a base for many mixed drinks, so Affection, besides being a love itself, 
can enter into the other loves and colour them all through and become 
the very medium in which from day to day they operate. They would not 
perhaps wear very well without it... As for erotic love, I can imagine 
nothing more disagreeable than to experience it for more than a very 
short time without this homespun clothing of affection. That would be a 
most uneasy condition, either too angelic or too animal or each by turn; 
never quite great enough or little enough for man."

-- 
Simon Nickerson
"I went on the Underground - "
"Really?" said Mr Weasley eagerly. "Were there escapators?"



From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Sun Jan 12 22:51:38 2003
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd <jkusalavagemd@yahoo.com>)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 22:51:38 -0000
Subject: Offensive items  WAS :  Re: Fanfics with slash & sex...I don't get it
In-Reply-To: <avsmn0+10632@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <avsrhq+vhn2@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "ER <ression at h...>" 
<ression at h...> wrote:
> "bel" wrote -

> 
> >And another thing that would offend me is if Blaize turned out to 
be 
> a girl. (there are many other things, but these are just my 
> conceptions of the characters, and I would go on reading the series 
> regardless, just cos I like it :)).
> 
> Blaize???
> 
> 
In PS/SS Blaise Zabini was the last student Sorted into Slytherin.  
St. Blaise was a male, IIRC

Haggridd


> ER





From mb2910 at hotmail.com  Sun Jan 12 23:11:46 2003
From: mb2910 at hotmail.com (meira_q <mb2910@hotmail.com>)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 23:11:46 -0000
Subject: Fanfics with slash & sex...I don't get it
In-Reply-To: <avsmn0+10632@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <avssni+ceqi@eGroups.com>

ER:
> "bel" wrote -

ME:
I'm usually known as Meira, thankyouverymuch...


ME: 
> > IMO, this is leading up to making a point that every person might 
> find something different to get offended by. Personally, I would be 
> very offended if JKR would write the Slytherins (any of them) as 
> smokers, or as addicted to drugs, or alcoholics. It just doesn't 
add up.

ER: 
> Strange, if you'd asked me I'd have said that was just _their_ sort 
> of thing! You're a Slytherin fan, right?

ME:
Yes I am. I like them. Probably fanon is interfering here, but you 
know how Ron says that "all bad witches came from Slytherin"?

OK, just spent about 10 minutes leafing through PS (wouldn't want to 
have a movie contamination here *g*)

Anyway, Hagrid says to Harry when they're in Diagon Alley buying 
Harry's school stuff (and *not* Ron, while waiting to be sorted - 
TCTMNBN: "There's not a single witch or wizard who went bad who 
wasn't in Slytherin. You-Know-Who was one." (p. 62 in the Bloomsbury 
edition)

That doesn't mean that ALL those who went to Slytherin went bad. And 
the same way that it's not technology that is bad, but the people who 
use it, same thing could be applied to magic, I assume. The magic 
isn't bad, the people who use it are.

And probably my aversion from punk, drug-addicted Slytherins come 
from terrible fanfiction characterizations.

I can't hear Lucius (for example) saying "Bumblebore". Somehow, I 
think it's "beneath" him. I know that there are occasions in which 
Draco says "Potty and the Weasel", but that is just childish 
behavior. I would like to see him grow out of it.

And remember Peter Pettigrew? I bet 10 imaginary Galleons that he 
wasn't the only Gryffindor who went bad.

ME:
> >And another thing that would offend me is if Blaize turned out to 
be 
> a girl. (there are many other things, but these are just my 
> conceptions of the characters, and I would go on reading the series 
> regardless, just cos I like it :)).

ER: 
> Blaize???
> 

ME:
Sorry, misspelled his/her name (I can never remember if it's with 
a 's' or with a 'z').
I meant Blaise Zabini

ER:
> > I agree. Warnings are in place, to avoid something that ickles 
you. 
> Nothing wrong with that.
> 
> I agree too!

Me:
But some people pointed out here, that there are people who are 
ickled by Het. So shouldn't there be warnings in those too?
a rating for amounts of sex and/or violence, and which pairing. It's 
not difficult to figure out what it's all about when it 
says "Hermione/Krum", or "Hermione/Ginny" or "Snape/Harry" etc, etc.
Another very helpful thing, would be to write the whole name, and not 
just the initials (Harry/Draco instead of H/D).

ER: 
> >>JK's books are designed to be read by children and I think 
> the "violence" is pantomime stuff.

ME: 
> > No it isn't! The violence there is very real.

ER: 
> I guess this is just a question of how one reads it. Maybe I'm just 
> jaded, but to me there are no _nasty_ death scenes or maimings in 
the 
> book. Harry gets stabbed with a basilisks fang or whatever and hey-
> presto there's a ruddy bird on his shoulder giving CPR :) But 
> obviously everybody reacts differently. I think "Heidi Tandy" said 
> earlier that when they brought Cedric's body back, that made her 
cry. 
> This is simply something I can't understand :( But, I still love 
the 
> books!

ME: 
> >*gags, spluttering her tea all over the keyboard*
> Excuse me?? "big deal"? "Who cared about him?"??? Maybe the "little 
> we did know was ... popped into GoF just to make him slightly less 
of 
> a minor-character when he did get killed" but he *did* get  killed. 
> And he was harmless. And his death was pointless and stupid. And 
> ruthless.
> 

ER:
> Not sure it was pointless, JK probably put it there for a reason, 
> it's just that it didn't give me goosebumps. Honest.
> 

ME:
> >If you feel "big-deal" and "who cares about him" in regards to 
> Cedric, how do you feel about the Riddle's Gardener, Frank? was he 
> insubstantial and meaningless too?

ER: 
> I know nothing of him, so I can't really comment. But his death 
> didn't upset me. Did it move you? I'm sure you must think I'm a 
> heartless old bastard, but, really, I'm not :) It just that none of 
> these death scenes has anything to grab at me inner vitals.

K responded to this by saying:
I don't think that's what she meant by pointless. (I could be wrong, 
but that's not how I read it) I think she meant it in the sense of a 
senseless death - Voldemort had no real reason to kill him other than 
the fact that he had no reason *not* to.
He wasn't a threat but Voldemort killed him because he could.
In the sense of the book of course it wasn't pointless - it very 
quickly and very simply showed us what kind of an evil Voldemort 
really was. It showed us that he doesn't just kill because he needs 
to or because someone's a threat but because he can. That the act 
itself was committed so casually showed us his character far more 
easily than pages of talking could have done. A very nice exampl of 
show don't tell. IMHO a good author is one who can write one short 
scene about a character and leave you *knowing* so much about them 
that it would have taken pages for him/her to describe that character.

ME:
Yes, thank you, that is exactly what I meant.

ME: 
> > Maybe except History of Magic ;).

ER: 
> Yeah, you're right there. Goblin Revolutions must be about as 
> interesting as the Corn Laws, especially at age 14 or so. A little 
> like being made to read Jane Eyre at that age too! And this just 
> reminds of something I thought of once (sad or what) - do the 
> Hogwarts' pupils have English or Maths lessons? Or are they just 
> expect to write literate yard-long essays without any teaching on 
the 
> subject of grammar and wotnot?

ME: 
What are Corn Laws?
Urgh... next semester one of the things we're supposed to read *is* 
Jane Eyre. I've avoided that book my whole life as if I were roaming 
around after lights out trying not to run into Mrs. Norris ^-^.

Me:  
> >We have no way of knowing that [re bullying]. What about the 
> Marauders tormenting Snape? 
> or Draco and his cronies tormenting Neville?

ER: 
> I'd argue (again) that it's not sustained, and that an occasional 
bit 
> of roughing up is all part of learning to cope with life and some 
of 
> the unpleasant people that populate it, but I suppose we just don't 
> know. And I suppose on those grounds, now I think about it, that 
> might mean that there is bullying since there would be in a real 
> school. Strange in a way that JK hasn't tackled this more, her 
being 
> an ex-school-teacher and all that. But (he suddenly thinks), she 
> didn't to upset some of her younger readers who are being bullied?

ME:
Didn't JKR say in one of her interviews that she didn't write stuff 
based on what would upset people and what wouldn't?


ME:
> >Well, just the fact that it's *fanfic* makes it non-canon, doesn't 
> it? No one but JKR can write exactly what JKR has in mind. 
Everything 
> else is just personal interpretation, even TCTMNBN.
> 
ER:
> Taken to the nth-degree, no doubt, but I think more generally 
people 
> can abide by what canon is available and try and write the 
characters 
> as in-character as they can. Perhaps we need a FanFriction category!

ME:
You've never read Snitch!, have you? *g*
Excellently and brilliantly in-character and totally AU (Alternate 
Universe), and just wuvly and wonderful, and very slashy and nothing 
like what JKR probably had in mind.

If people were to write only the way JKR meant us to, then we'd only 
get Harry's POV. a sizeable chunk of fanfics, methinks, definitely do 
not apply to this.

What would be the fun of reading only JKR style fanfic?
that would be as much fun as looking at fanart only if it's exact 
portrayals of the actors in the movies. Blergh...
(Or, like Weird Al says "about as much fun as watching paint dry" 
in "I Can't Watch This" ;))

ME: 
> > I never lost a good night's sleep.

ER: 
> Give it twenty years or so ...

ME:
Amazing what snipping does, isn't it *g*? you make me sound like I 
*never ever* went through the night roaming the house bleary eyed in 
my pj's, trying everything from drinking milk to watching the "snow" 
on TV to try sleeping.
I meant that fanfic is not something that I'd lose a night's sleep 
over.

ME:
> > But now I'm determined to write a fic exploring that particular 
> ship [Harry/Neville] *g*)

ER:
> Do let us now when you're finished. Just tag a "warning" on the 
> front ;)

ME:
Why, of course.

Meira (who hopes no one will call her "bel" again)




From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Jan 12 23:16:19 2003
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston) <catlady@wicca.net>)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 23:16:19 -0000
Subject: The word 'slash'
In-Reply-To: <avsmjh+iusf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <avst03+t9rd@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, <eression at h...> wrote:

> for slash content (why 'slash' BTW)

It derives from the way of writing pairings (long before they were 
called "ships"), like H/Hr and R/Hr. '/' is pronounced 'slash'. K/S 
(Kirk/Spock) stories started appearingn back in the 1960s. I always 
heard them called "kay-ess" (phonetic spelling) but some part of 
the world must have called them Kay-slash-ess, because soon they were 
called simply "slash". I desperately wish I could remember what year 
it was, what con, probably later half of the 1970s and surely in Los 
Angeles, at which I browsed a table of fanzines in the dealer room, 
which turned out to be ALL slash zines from different fandoms, 
including a Cagney/Lacey one.




From john at queerasjohn.com  Sun Jan 12 23:16:54 2003
From: john at queerasjohn.com (Queer as John)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 23:16:54 +0000
Subject: Loaded words and other gay issues (was: Fanfics with slash &
	sex...I don't get it)
In-Reply-To: <avsmjh+iusf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <BA47A7E6.5372%john@queerasjohn.com>

ER <ression at hotmail.com> said:

> Well I certainly see [the issue with 'normal'], but I'm not sure I agree!
> Normal, typical and usage are just similar words as far as I'm concerned.
> Obviously I'm not coming at it from where you are, but it seems a bit of jump
> to consider me homophobic because of it (if that is your thesis). However, if
> it offends you, I will certainly try to  avoid use of the word normal when
> talking to you, strange as it seems to me.

Not when talking *to* me, but when talking *of* me and people like me. ("Me"
in the sense that slash refers to gay people.) Does that clarify?

And, no, I don't consider you homophobic ? more "someone I need to explain
my perspective to better". (Sorry, that could sound really patronising; it's
not meant to be.) If I thought you were a homophobe, I wouldn't be replying!
:D

> "Normal" and "good" - my PC normally crashes, it normally rains in
> England, the taxman normally wants money from me - these things I do
> not consider good (except when the garden could do with a drop of
> rain).

Those are fine. However, consider ? gay people are not normal ? normal
people don't do that ? normal behaviour ? and so on.

For me, and for many other gay people, words like "normal", "deviate" and so
on have negative connotations which, to many non-gay people, do not have
similar resonances. It's similar to the meaning the word "fundamentalist".
Technically, it has a very admirable meaning of attempting to get to the
fundamentals of a religion. In common use and practice in today's society,
it carries negative implications: "militant", "terrorist", "fanatic", and so
on. Part of me deplores this media-influenced "loading" of words, but on the
other hand language is a living entity, despite what the Academie Fran?aise
might say. :D

QAJ:

>> Well, I *refuse* to grin and bear it [snip] the right to not be
>> fired or otherwise discriminated against at
>> work based on my sexual orientation, and so on and so forth.

ER:
 
> You serious? Speak to your lawyer, you may never need to work again.
> This is against the law. Period.

Oh, no, it isn't against the law in the United States, and has only very
recently become illegal in the EU. In the USA, it's a state- and
locality-based legal system. The majority of states and localities do not
have sexual orientation related anti-discrimination laws. I quote:

"In 37 states, it is legal to fire someone based on their sexual
orientation. In 48 states, it is legal to do so based on gender identity."

http://www.hrc.org/issues/workplace/index.asp

That site, the Human Rights Campaign, has some very informative and
eye-opening stuff.

QAJ:

>> I'm curious ? how do you go about finding that majority, and that vote? And
>> who gets to vote? What is the electorate here? Members of a fanfiction site?
>> Anyone who wanders along and clicks? Is the voting tied to IP address or not?

ER:

> Pass - that's why I said they'd be hard to come by. One way to get a
> handle on this might be to trawl a few thousand Fics and see which
> ones got slated for slash content (why 'slash' BTW) and which ones
> got hammered for het content.

What I immediately think of by "slated" and "hammered" is the American
Library Association's "Most Frequently Challenged Books" list ? you know,
the one where the ALA tallies the books which are most frequently asked to
be removed from libraries? Guess what's at the top of that one?

Yes, that's right. Harry Potter, beating out "Daddy's Roommate" and "Heather
Has Two Mommies", numbers 2 and 11 of the 1990-2000 Most Frequently
Challenged Books List.

http://www.ala.org/bbooks/challeng.html#mfcb

Nimbus Plug! Judith Krug, Director of the ALA's Office for Intellectual
Freedom, will be speaking at Nimbus - 2003 in Florida this July.
http://www.hp2003.org.

QAJ:

>> No, they need responsible parents who monitor their internet usage. See my
>> reply to Diana's post.

ER:

> In an ideal world yes, but it ain't going to happen and we shouldn't (where
> practical) subject the child to the failings of the parent when we can so
> easily (from my POV) avoid it.

Frankly, if Joe and Jane Six-Pack are letting Little Joey and Little Suzie
roam around the Internet unsupervised,  reading slash is the least of our
concerns. 

> You obviously feel this deeply, but at the risk of upsetting you again, I feel
> aggrieved at the thought of being told which perfectly good words I can and
> cannot use.

It's not that I'm telling anyone which words they can and cannot use. I am
simply stating that if you choose to use certain words, they carry a
negative implication and loaded meaning for me and many others on this list.
The end result of these implications is a perception that the people using
these words are homophobic.

> BTW, would you object to me calling you queer, or is that now acceptable?

Ah, now, we get onto a very interesting question of usage of minority
vocabulary. Is it, for instance, acceptable for me to say "I speak fag"
while decrying somebody for calling me a fag as I'm walking down the street?

Let's consider our perceptions in a different context, that of race. I have
had discussions about this with friends of various different minority and
majority backgrounds (from straight white men to gay black women and beyond)
and the question is the same as whether or not a white person can use the
word "nigger" in the same way as a black person can.

Both examples appear to be hypocritical. If one person uses the term to
describe himself, why cannot another person use it to describe him? I think
the answer is in the way that the word is used. Many black people "reclaim"
the word "nigger" and "color" (as in People of Color) in the way that many
Wiccans reclaim "witch" and gay people "reclaim" the words "fag", "queer",
"fruit", and so on. This "reclaiming" is an attempt to remove the abusive
connotations from the word by using it in a positive way in every-day
contexts.

In general, and I'm not entirely convinced by this, because it's a horrible
double-standard, the use of the word "nigger", "queer", "fag", etc. is
restricted solely to the minorities concerned, and people outside that
minority should not use it. I can entirely understand frustration with this,
of course, and I do recognise that it's a double-standard. As you say,
Humpty-Dumpty.

QAJ:

>> Or, alternatively, as our admin files suggest, people could be more
>> selective with their use of overly-loaded language.

ER:

> But only if one knows (or indeed agrees) what is overloaded. Short of
> a direct everybody-would-agree-it's-nasty attack, I still maintain
> the immediate lack of feedback means the aggrieved party should at
> least attempt to seek clarification. If not, we'll reach the point
> where all posts are of the "See Spot run" variety (OK, tell me Spot
> is homosexual slang for something :)

Nope. No slang. And I apologise for assuming that you knew that these words
were loaded.

>>> I do know people who object to (or are at least offended by) descriptions of
>>> homosexual pairings but I don't know anybody who objects to inter- racial
>>> coupling. It's not to say that such bigots don't exist, but I can only speak
>>> from my own experience.
>>> 
>> Right, it's here that I will ask for clarification. Your words make me think
>> that you believe that someone who objects to inter-racial coupling is a
>> bigot, but someone who objects to descriptions of homosexual pairings is not.
>> If that is what you meant, that is an UNBELIEVABLE double- standard. I refuse
>> to pander to such a double standard. Hate is hate. Bigotry is bigotry.
>> 
> Nope, not what I meant, nor what I said. I just said that hatred based on race
> is bigoted. You're (IMHO) being touchy again.

Well, if you'd read your statement as I read your statement, wouldn't you?
:D

>> Once again, it would be very helpful if you refrained from using "normal"
>> rhetoric. Perhaps, instead, "gay people are not in the majority"? But then,
>> unfortunately, you would lose your justification for things not being in the
>> spirit of the story.
> 
> You've lost me here - explain please.

See below.

QAJ:

>> Because society *likes* minorities, and frowns on people who *don't like*
>> minorities.

ER:
 
> Do you think that society as a whole (not just the educated liberal-
> minded portion) likes homosexuals (as in actively likes as opposed to
> doesn't care/never gives it a thought) and frowns on people who don't
> like them?

No, that wasn't my point, and in fact was the opposite of what I was trying
to convey. My point was that, as a rule, society acknowledges the rights of
ethnic and other minorities to be represented and visible as a community.
Sexual orientation, though a minority, does not in general confer those
rights

> By your argument you're preaching love of the BNP (read Klu-Klux clan in
> America). This obviously isn't what you mean, but perhaps you could clarify
> what you do mean.

*blinks* No love for them, but I *will* defend their right to their
opinions, right up until they start inciting hatred or violence. There's a
famous quote about that which I can't be bothered to look up ;)

QAJ:

>> I *don't* feel that fics should be warned simply because they contain gay
>> material. Pairings, yes. But "random gay people in the background", or "male
>> character occasionally has thoughts about other men"? No.

ER: 

> Agreed, if it is adult fic, but not if it is young fic. I guess we
> just must disagree here.

So, are you saying that children shouldn't be exposed to gay people in
stories? If so, how is that different from saying they shouldn't be exposed
to black people? If not, what are you saying?

> I can understand, but you must agree it is very difficult, in a
> practical sense, for me to know in advance what you regard
> as "loaded". 

Absolutely. That's why I'm attempting to explain. :) I've been trying to
find an online list of loaded words, but Google is failing me. If anyone has
one, do shout out.

> Today is the first time I've heard a homosexual object to my language or use
> of the word "normal". Though equally today is the first time that I've ever
> being involved in a written exchange on the subject with a homosexual.

Which is fair enough. Oh, and BTW? Most gay people prefer to be referred to
as "gay people" (or "lesbians", "transgender", etc.) rather than
"homosexuals" or "gays". The BBC News Style Guide
(http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/radio_newsroom/1099593.stm#g) is
mostly right when it says:

"Some people believe the word "homosexual" has negative overtones, even that
it is demeaning. Most homosexual men and women prefer the words "gay" and
"lesbian". Either word is acceptable as an alternative to homosexual, but
"gay" should be used only as an adjective. "Gay" as a noun - "gays gathered
for a demonstration" - is not acceptable."

> I'd still disagree with your earlier comment that you'd have picked me up on
> these words in face-to-face conversation :)

Well, I do pick up on them in face-to-face conversation, as those listies
who have met me in person will attest. I visualise words, you see, and words
like that sort of throw up a big red flag.

Enjoying the conversation, and happy to clarify or answer any questions.

--John
______________________________________

Queer as John || john at queerasjohn.com

AIM, YM & LJ @ QueerAsJohn || www.queerasjohn.com

"There's nowt as queer as folk."  --English proverb
______________________________________




From john at queerasjohn.com  Sun Jan 12 23:28:03 2003
From: john at queerasjohn.com (Queer as John)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 23:28:03 +0000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: The word 'slash'
In-Reply-To: <avst03+t9rd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <BA47AA83.537A%john@queerasjohn.com>

Catlady (Rita Prince Winston) <catlady at wicca.net> said:

> It derives from the way of writing pairings (long before they were
> called "ships"), like H/Hr and R/Hr. '/' is pronounced 'slash'. K/S
> (Kirk/Spock) stories started appearingn back in the 1960s. I always
> heard them called "kay-ess" (phonetic spelling) but some part of
> the world must have called them Kay-slash-ess, because soon they were
> called simply "slash".

Yes, I've never heard the slash pronounced either. Just like I've never
heard the "bang" (!) pronounced in dead!James, redeemed!Draco or slut!Harry.

An interesting topic for discussion is "When is Slash Slash?". We are used
to slash referring to gay pairings which are generally sourced from subtext.
But do these subtextual pairings have to be gay? Historically in media
culture, they do ? because there were no openly gay people on TV when
Kirk/Spock originated. So, people picked up on the subtext.

However, what if one takes a look at more recent media culture. Would
Will/Grace from _Will_and_Grace_ be slash? It would have to be sourced from
the subtext, of course. Similarly, what about Brian/Melanie from
_Queer_as_Folk_? Or Again, it's het, but is it slash?

Thoughts?

--John
______________________________________

Queer as John || john at queerasjohn.com

AIM, YM & LJ @ QueerAsJohn || www.queerasjohn.com

"There's nowt as queer as folk."  --English proverb
______________________________________




From ression at hotmail.com  Sun Jan 12 23:34:59 2003
From: ression at hotmail.com (ER <ression@hotmail.com>)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 23:34:59 -0000
Subject: Fanfics with slash & sex...I don't get it
In-Reply-To: <avssni+ceqi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <avsu33+ak5j@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "meira_q <mb2910 at h...>" 
<mb2910 at h...> wrote:

> ER:
> > "bel" wrote -
> 
> ME:
> I'm usually known as Meira, thankyouverymuch...
> 

Oops, sorry 'bout that, must have got my threads crossed.


> Anyway, Hagrid says to Harry when they're in Diagon Alley buying 
> Harry's school stuff (and *not* Ron, while waiting to be sorted - 
> TCTMNBN: "There's not a single witch or wizard who went bad who 

TCTMNBN????

> 
> And remember Peter Pettigrew? I bet 10 imaginary Galleons that he 
> wasn't the only Gryffindor who went bad.

Yes, interesting, interesting.

> 
> ME:
> > >And another thing that would offend me is if Blaize turned out 
to 
> be 
> > a girl. (there are many other things, but these are just my 
> > conceptions of the characters, and I would go on reading the 
series 
> > regardless, just cos I like it :)).
> 
> ER: 
> > Blaize???
> > 
> 
> ME:
> Sorry, misspelled his/her name (I can never remember if it's with 
> a 's' or with a 'z').
> I meant Blaise Zabini
> 

That's why I couldn't find him/her online! Why would you care about 
his/her sex? So far all I've been able to track down is that he/she 
got put into Slytherin ...



> ME: 
> What are Corn Laws?

I forget, but they were very boring at age 14. Probably to do with 
the English land-owning classes keeping the price of corn artifically 
high, which lead to much starvation among the working classes. Or 
something.

> Urgh... next semester one of the things we're supposed to read *is* 
> Jane Eyre. I've avoided that book my whole life as if I were 
roaming 
> around after lights out trying not to run into Mrs. Norris ^-^.

Tough! Pretend to break a leg. Or really break a leg (c. Ron 
Weasley :)

> ME:
> Didn't JKR say in one of her interviews that she didn't write stuff 
> based on what would upset people and what wouldn't?
> 

That's a bit mean of her, if we're talking about the younger readers?

> 
> ME:
> You've never read Snitch!, have you? *g*
> Excellently and brilliantly in-character and totally AU (Alternate 
> Universe), and just wuvly and wonderful, and very slashy and 
nothing 
> like what JKR probably had in mind.
> 

Nope, though I meant to say earlier that I can stand any amount of 
slash if it's wrapped around with humour. So, shoot me down again ;)

> Amazing what snipping

Isn't it :))

> I *never ever* went through the night roaming the house bleary eyed 
>in my pj's, trying everything from drinking milk to watching 
>the "snow" on TV to try sleeping.

Actually in all my 40+ years I've never ever done this. A tense 30 
minutes lying awake perhaps, but then zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. Phew.


> Meira (who hopes no one will call her "bel" again)

I'll try, I'll try (with apologies to the real "Bel").


ER




From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk  Sun Jan 12 23:33:36 2003
From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 23:33:36 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Loaded words and other gay issues (was: Fanfics with slash &sex...I don't get it)
References: <BA47A7E6.5372%john@queerasjohn.com>
Message-ID: <3E21FB50.000001.02779@monica>



-------Original Message-------

From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
Date: 12 January 2003 23:17:08
To: OT-Chatter
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Loaded words and other gay issues (was: Fanfics
with slash &sex...I don't get it)

Queer-as-John wrote :

*blinks* No love for them, but I *will* defend their right to their
opinions, right up until they start inciting hatred or violence. There's a
famous quote about that which I can't be bothered to look up ;)

Me - 

So since I should be writing an essay I decided to waste some time looking
the quote up for you :)

It's Voltaire (If you're referring to the one I think you are).
"I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend to the death
your right to say it."

Interestingly (well I found it interesting) while looking I found one in a
similar vein from Colin Powell "Free speech is intended to protect the
controversial and even outrageous word; and not just comforting platitudes
too mundane to need protection."


K
(avoiding work this assidulously takes real effort)



From ression at hotmail.com  Mon Jan 13 00:05:34 2003
From: ression at hotmail.com (ER <ression@hotmail.com>)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 00:05:34 -0000
Subject: Loaded words and other gay issues (was: Fanfics with slash & sex...I don't get it)
In-Reply-To: <BA47A7E6.5372%john@queerasjohn.com>
Message-ID: <avsvse+ad17@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Queer as John <john at q...> 
wrote:

> 
> Oh, no, it isn't against the law in the United States, and has only 
very
> recently become illegal in the EU. In the USA, it's a state- and
> locality-based legal system. The majority of states and localities 
do not
> have sexual orientation related anti-discrimination laws. I quote:
> 

I confess I'd sort of assumed you were English. Especially as you 
knew what I meant by Tyke (and the one reference _I_ can find 
uses "so", so there :)
> 


> Yes, that's right. Harry Potter, beating out "Daddy's Roommate" 
and "Heather
> Has Two Mommies", numbers 2 and 11 of the 1990-2000 Most Frequently
> Challenged Books List.
> 

Ballot-stuffing! How many votes are we talking about here? Hundreds, 
thousands, millions?

> 
> Frankly, if Joe and Jane Six-Pack are letting Little Joey and 
Little Suzie
> roam around the Internet unsupervised,  reading slash is the least 
of our
> concerns. 
> 

But as we can do something about it, why not do it? The longest march 
begins with the first step or whatever it was.

> Ah, now, we get onto a very interesting question of usage of 
minority
> vocabulary. Is it, for instance, acceptable for me to say "I speak 
fag"
> while decrying somebody for calling me a fag as I'm walking down 
the street?

We're not talking about paper tubes filled with tobacco here, are we? 
Scope for confusion here!

> 
> Nope. No slang. And I apologise for assuming that you knew that 
these words were loaded.

I really do wonder how many other people on the forum would have 
known that "gay people" (reading ahead here, and must say I find it 
hard to separate that from "gays" BTW, but there you go) considered 
it loaded.


> 
> Well, if you'd read your statement as I read your statement, 
wouldn't you?
> :D


Agreed, but if you _can_ see that there are different readings 
possible, ask first! If I say that all gay people should be strung up 
with piano wire, then by all means open fire immediately.

> > By your argument you're preaching love of the BNP (read Klu-Klux 
clan in
> > America). This obviously isn't what you mean, but perhaps you 
could clarify
> > what you do mean.
> 
> *blinks* No love for them, but I *will* defend their right to their
> opinions, right up until they start inciting hatred or violence. 

Erm, that's what they do. And very little else. I do often think that 
this "I disagree with you but will defend ..." philosophy can get 
taken too far. Some things (and people) just need stomping on before 
they hurt somebody. Hindsight is of course a wonderful thing - "if 
only Chamberlain hadn't appeased Hitler so much" etc etc.


> 
> So, are you saying that children shouldn't be exposed to gay people 
in
> stories? If so, how is that different from saying they shouldn't be 
exposed
> to black people? If not, what are you saying?
> 

Tricky one, let me get back to you on that. 

> Absolutely. That's why I'm attempting to explain. :) I've been 
trying to
> find an online list of loaded words, but Google is failing me. If 
anyone has
> one, do shout out.

Ah, but loaded from whose POV? Who creates these lists? Do you see 
that telling people what words they can and can't use could be a very 
slippery slope?

As it happens I object to being referred to as "straight" as I really 
don't see any reason to usurp this otherwise useful word. I suppose 
it was invented by the gay community ("gay people" just doesn't read 
right here) as the opposite to "bent" (if you use that in America). 
Though I think more and more, bent now refers to those of a criminal 
dispostion. In England that is. Probably totally different elsewhere, 
as is usual with slang.
 

> 
> Well, I do pick up on them in face-to-face conversation, as those 
listies
> who have met me in person will attest. I visualise words, you see, 
and words
> like that sort of throw up a big red flag.
> 

Do you literally mean like those people who have that "disease" where 
they hear in colour, taste in sound, smell in words or whatever? Or 
are you just speaking loosely?


ER




From HebrideanBlack2002 at hotmail.com  Mon Jan 13 00:11:48 2003
From: HebrideanBlack2002 at hotmail.com (Wendy St. John)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 00:11:48 +0000
Subject: "Mudblood" 
Message-ID: <F141ou2VythhOjcdEc80000097d@hotmail.com>


Hello, Everyone,

The recent "Loaded Language" posts have reminded me of something I've been 
noticing lately on the main HPFGUs list - a use of language which I am 
coming to find offensive, and I'm wondering if anyone else feels the same:

I have noticed people using the term "mudblood" to refer to muggle-born 
students. Not in discussing the way someone like Lucius or Voldemort might 
feel about them, but just as way to describe this part of the Hogwarts 
student population. For example, "How do Mudbloods get Wizarding money to 
buy their school supplies?" Although it is not a real world term, and 
therefore doesn't have the same level of emotional "charge" that hearing a 
word like "nig**r" does for me, in the context of the books, it is meant to 
be every bit as foul as the use of the "n" word is in real life. So why are 
people using it in this manner when posting?

The first time I noticed someone use "mudblood" in this way, that was all I 
did . . . notice. But after seeing it a few more times, I started wondering 
about the people writing the posts. Do they mean to sound offensive? Do they 
feel Muggle-born students are somehow "less" than purebloods? I find that I 
am becoming very put off by the term, and it colours my feelings about the 
posters themselves - similar to the way I feel about people who use the "n" 
word in conversation, although to a lesser degree. (Anyone who uses that 
term in casual conversation is pretty much instantly written off by me as 
someone I don't want to know. Am I being intolerant myself?)

My mind tells me that the posters using the term in this way are not trying 
to be offensive, or portray a bigoted attitude about Muggle-born students. 
But every time I read it in a post, there's a part of me which is becoming 
more and more sensitive to it. Am I just taking this waaaaay too seriously? 
<G> Or has anyone else noticed and/or felt this way about it? I'm not 
suggesting that we put a ban on the term "Mudblood" on the list, but it does 
make me wonder about the level of awareness and sensitivity of the people 
who choose to use the word in what now strikes me as an offensive manner.

:-)
Wendy
(Who fears she is taking the Potterverse far too seriously! <g>).

_________________________________________________________________
STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* 
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail




From heidit at netbox.com  Mon Jan 13 00:14:10 2003
From: heidit at netbox.com (Heidi Tandy)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 20:14:10 -0400
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Offensive items  WAS :  Re: Fanfics with slash & sex...I don't get it
Message-ID: <mailman.20.1576049041.5361.hpfgu-otchatter@archive.hpfgu.org>

Haggridd wrote:
**> 
In PS/SS Blaise Zabini was the last student Sorted into Slytherin.  
St. Blaise was a male, IIRC**

And in the Hebrew and iirc the Russian versions of PS, Blaise is a girl. 

Someone made a list a long time ago - will search for it and post it to the main list for comparative purposes. 



From judyshapiro at directvinternet.com  Mon Jan 13 01:02:10 2003
From: judyshapiro at directvinternet.com (Judy <judyshapiro@directvinternet.com>)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 01:02:10 -0000
Subject: Nitpicking (was: Fanfics with slash & sex...I don't get it)
In-Reply-To: <avrocc+huu1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <avt36i+9agh@eGroups.com>

Amy Z poured some nitpicking oil on troubled waters by saying:
> we see Mad-Eye Moody and Sinistra dancing together. 
(as opposed to Vector and Sinistra)

Along the line of what is actually in canon, isn't interacial dating
canonical?  Fred, who presumably is white, goes to the Yule Ball with
Angelina.  Isn't Angelina Black?  (Or am I confusing her with another
Gryffindor Quidditch player?) 

Judy




From judyshapiro at directvinternet.com  Mon Jan 13 01:07:45 2003
From: judyshapiro at directvinternet.com (Judy <judyshapiro@directvinternet.com>)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 01:07:45 -0000
Subject: Fics with slash, children's books, the purpose of my schpiel on warnings (in
In-Reply-To: <BNEPJHMDKNKONPANMBMGKEPDCAAA.huntleyl@mssm.org>
Message-ID: <avt3h1+hcnp@eGroups.com>

Laura Ingalls Huntley said:
>>>As for the question of student-teacher relationships 
(or, in a more general sense, sexual/romantic 
relationships between children and adults) -- I, for
one, think adults who have sex with children are evil. <<< 

Ok, we definitely agree on that!  (Or at least, that the act is evil;
I see some pedophiles as evil, and some as pathetic and ill.) 

Laura continued:
>>>That said, I have absolutely no problem with fanfiction that
involves such adult/child relationships. ...I don't feel the need to
be "protected" from them by warnings or labels, and I certainly don't
think the authors are doing anything wrong.  Fiction is fiction, kids,
whether it has "fan" attached to it or not....<<<

This overlooks the possibility that fiction could affect people's
behavior in real life.  One of the reasons that child pornography is
punished so heavily is that pedophiles have often used it to try to
convince kids that sex between children and adults is normal.  I don't
know how serious a danger this is with fanfiction, but I don't think
it should be summarily ruled out. 

Sexual violence in media is a particular problem even when chidlren
aren't involved. Sexual arousal is self-reinforcing -- in other words,
exposure to violent pornography may make a person gte aroused by the
idea of raping someone. Once a pattern of arousal is established, it
is extremely difficult to break. 

I see violence in fiction as a serious problem.  The Columbine
massacre brought this issue to the attention of the public, but there
had been extensive research for decades indicating that violence in
the media leads to real violence. Sure,*most* people won't become
violent from exposure to depictions of violence, but suppose only 1 in
100 does?  That one person could do a lot of damage. Putting warning
labels on fiction won't fix this problem.  The kids killed at
Columbine may have had parents who scrupulously kept them away from
violent material.  But, they still wound up dead when two of their
classmates decided that shooting people was cool. 

[Of course, this has nothing to do with straight versus gay themes in
fiction.  Most violent pornography involves men attacking women.  And,
this should probably be obvious, but we can pretty much rule out the
possibility that reading slash will "make someone gay."  Sexual
orientation seems to be fixed quite early in life, probably before
birth.]  

John said:
>>>Frankly, children shouldn't be running around on the internet
unsupervised. It is not the responsibility of anybody but a child's
parent or guardian to monitor their child's internet usage. <<<

I don't think this is realistic.  Parents aren't able to look over
their children's shoulders every moment. (One of my nephews got caught
sneaking out of bed in the middle of the night to surf the web.)  I am
hoping that the .kid extension gets implemented; this would make it
easier for parents to keep kids away from stuff they aren't ready for. 

-- Judy





From Malady579 at hotmail.com  Mon Jan 13 01:09:23 2003
From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody <Malady579@hotmail.com>)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 01:09:23 -0000
Subject: "Mudblood"
In-Reply-To: <F141ou2VythhOjcdEc80000097d@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <avt3k3+78q8@eGroups.com>

Wendy wrote:
> I have noticed people using the term "mudblood" to refer to
>muggle-born students.  Not in discussing the way someone like Lucius or
>Voldemort might feel about them, but just as way to describe this
part >of the Hogwarts student population.

Wendy, I agree with you.  I find it a bit sad that people do not see
why that would be sensitive to say even though the term technically
does not offend anyone person on the site.  It should not be used
flippantly, in my opinion, when "muggle-born" is a much nicer word to
use and does not carry the baggage of "mudblood".  Can we make an
appeal on the main site to not use "mudblood" in vain?

But then again, maybe I too am taking HP too seriously.  But then
again, don't we all?


Melody




From gandharvika at hotmail.com  Mon Jan 13 01:09:24 2003
From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 01:09:24 +0000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Couplethinking
Message-ID: <F397RlHqdaSfjnIn1lv000000a6@hotmail.com>

>The Elkins said:
>>I mean, for heaven's sake! Did Paul get *laid* on the Road To
>Damascus?"<<


Pippin Replied:
>LOL! Should I tell you that my filker's mind immediately flashed
>on Jesus, accompanied by the Fab Four, appearing before Paul
>in a blaze of gory and banging out "Why don't we do it in the
>road?"


Oh man...don't tempt me :)>

-Gail B.


_________________________________________________________________
Help STOP SPAM: Try the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* 
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From Audra1976 at aol.com  Mon Jan 13 01:12:20 2003
From: Audra1976 at aol.com (Audra1976 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 20:12:20 EST
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] "Mudblood"
Message-ID: <140.7a5ae7d.2b536c74@aol.com>

In a message dated 12/01/2003 19:13:03 Eastern Standard Time, 
HebrideanBlack2002 at hotmail.com writes:

> I have noticed people using the term "mudblood" to refer to muggle-born 
> students. 
<snip>
Am I just taking this waaaaay too seriously? 
> <G>

Me:
Wendy, 
Stop reading your HPfGU mail.  Hide your books and toys.  Take the audio 
books and soundtrack out of your stereo, and ground yourself from Harry 
Potter for a couple days.  LOL!  Yes, you *are* taking it far to seriously, 
IMO.  

You write:
>  
and
> My mind tells me that the posters using the term in this way are not trying 
> to be offensive, or portray a bigoted attitude about Muggle-born students. 
> But every time I read it in a post, there's a part of me which is becoming 
> more and more sensitive to it. 

Me again:
You're blurring the line between fiction and reality.  The word "Mudblood" 
means nothing to us in reality.  The "N" word--if you can even compare it to 
that--has a history for for us in the real world, and is offensive to people 
in the real world.  "Mudblood" is not an offensive term in the real world.  
It is a made-up offensive term in a book.  

Why are you getting sensitive to it?  Are you a muggleborn witch? No.  Do you 
know or know of any muggleborn witches or wizards for whom you feel 
sensitive?   Not in the real world.  You're elevating the fictional 
characters to the state of real people, and sympathizing with them.

Audra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From john at queerasjohn.com  Mon Jan 13 01:22:40 2003
From: john at queerasjohn.com (Queer as John)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 01:22:40 +0000
Subject: Parental monitoring (was: Re: Fics with slash, children's books
	etc)
In-Reply-To: <avt3h1+hcnp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <BA47C560.53A1%john@queerasjohn.com>

I said:

>> Frankly, children shouldn't be running around on the internet unsupervised.
>> It is not the responsibility of anybody but a child's parent or guardian to
>> monitor their child's internet usage.

Judy replied:

> I don't think this is realistic.  Parents aren't able to look over
> their children's shoulders every moment. (One of my nephews got caught
> sneaking out of bed in the middle of the night to surf the web.)  I am
> hoping that the .kid extension gets implemented; this would make it
> easier for parents to keep kids away from stuff they aren't ready for.

I agree wholeheartedly with you about the .kid domain. I think that would be
a fantastic idea. I agree with you that parents shouldn't be perpetually
looking over their children's shoulders when they're using the computer,
which would show parental trust, but at the same time the kid has to merit
that trust.

IMO, parents should install monitoring programs (undeletable history trails,
IM logs, chatroom logs, etc.), password-protect their internet connection,
and use filtering programs such as NetNanny. NetNanny et al are far from
foolproof, and often block genuinely useful sites, but IIRC the parent can
tap in a password to allow access, set preferences and so forth.

I am all for responsible webmastering, enabling of ratings, maturity levels
etc., but there has to be some sort of "meeting in the middle" of parental
responsibility and webmaster responsibility IMO.

It always strikes me as slightly odd when people say that internet
monitoring of children is unrealistic. Parents monitor, to whatever extent,
their children's offline interests, reading material, friendship groups etc.
? why shouldn't they do so online as well?

--John

______________________________________

Queer as John || john at queerasjohn.com

AIM, YM & LJ @ QueerAsJohn || www.queerasjohn.com

"There's nowt as queer as folk."  --English proverb
______________________________________




From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Mon Jan 13 01:38:21 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve <bboy_mn@yahoo.com>)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 01:38:21 -0000
Subject: Fan Fiction & Slash: Typical Story Header
Message-ID: <avt5ad+o9gn@eGroups.com>

Below it is a typical story header as require by nearly all newgroups
(Yahoo and otherwise) as well as Fan Fiction Story archives. Fail to
add a reasonably complete header like this and your stories will be
deleted. 

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 
Title: Friend to Fame- 
Year: Beginning of sixth year 
Time: Late August 
Pairing: [Ron/Harry]
Rating: NC-13 - Small amount of Slash at the beginning 
Summary: Ron discovers he has some fanatic fans.
Spoilers: Some minor Sorcer's Stone references
Date: 1/10/2002
DISCLAIMER: All characters, terms, names, trademarks, and settings,
whether implied or stated, are the sole property of J.K. Rowlings with
distribution and marketing rights held by Warner Brothers, and
Scholastic, Inc publishing.

No disrespect is intended to any of the characters themselves. This
story is just a fun fantasy loosely implying those characters, and set
in a similar framework. While the original characters are fictional, I
still submit that my writings are in no way intended to reflect the
nature, actions, or sexual orientation of the original fictional
characters. 

Summary: Fame takes a stange twist.
Warnings: Probably PG-13, sex is mentioned in reference to
a past memory, but no details.

Notes:
The Sequel to 'Friend to Fame' is 'The Chess Club'. Character from
this story, reappear in other stories (Sammy and Freddy). This
continues the time line and story line of 'The Awakening',

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

I have my own rating system but it's close enough to the standard, the
it's pretty obcvious.

G - General
PG - Parental Guidance - kids shouldn't read this unless they know
their parents wouldn't object.

PG-13 - doubtful that most parents would want anyone under 13 reading
this. I rarely rate even the mildest story lower that PG-13, just on
general principle.

NC-13 - No one under 13 should read this. It's not necessarily sexual,
but is reserved for mature minds.

R - usually, R means any sex short of detailed descriptions of
involved body parts unless they are very euphemistic. Personally, if
is at all sexual, even if it's only talked about it in the past or
implied in the future, I rate it R. That's stricter than the standard
R rating requires.

NC-17 - this is adult stuff and officially you must be 18 or over to
read it. If somethings is very graphic my rating will look something
like-  

NC-17, eXtreme Slash, ADULTS ONLY - strong emotions, adult situations,
and graphic sex.

Occassionally, for borderline stories, I may use PG-16 and NC-16,
warning or excluding people under 16. 

Now there is NO WAY you can get past that header and say you didn't
know what you are were getting into.

These headers are at the top of every chapter of a story, and with
multiple chapters, I rate both the story and the chapter.

This is the same information that is contained in the story
description listing in a story archive database. You get Title,
Author, Pairings, Ratings, Summary, and Comments. Usually, there isn't
a distinction between Slash and non-Slash. But if the pairing is Kirk
and Spock and it's rated NC-17, how could you not understand what that
means; Kirk/Spock/NC-17, seems clear enough to me.

So you get warned twice, in the archive database description and in
the story header itself. 

So back to the question/comment that started all this, I can see why
some people don't 'get it'. But, personally, I don't get what the
fastination is with 'Buffy'. Dead boring if you ask me. Solution - I
don't read Buffy stories. You don't like Slash, you don't 'get it';
solution - don't read it. 

You have every right not to 'get it'. That is your priviledge. Why do
other people 'do it' (read that is). It's fun, they enjoy it. A very
substantial number of slash readers and writers are young women. So
it's not just a bunch of nasty perverts. A world wide collection of
young women are having fun write and read stories. They are contained
with in a group of like minded individuals who seek out these stories.
The stories never seek them out; that would be unacceptable; promoting
your stories in areas of other than like minded individuals. The point
is, that the answer to the question "Why?" is, that we are having fun,
both reading and writing, and who are we harming. We seek no one out,
we make no money, although we do make new friends, this is all pure
fantasy (no real people involved, just a lot of electrons), so where
is the problem. 

If the problem is your kids reading my stories, then the problem is
YOU. If your kids are reading racist literature then the problem is
YOU. If you kids are read about bomb making then the problem is YOU.
It's not my job to supervise your kids. I can't come to your house and
shut off the computer. So if you have a problem with all this, then
you need to stop being a buddy, and start being a parent. Sorry but
that's how freedom works. Freedom is NOT safe, freedom is NOT easy,
but freedom is free.

As a side note, because the 'Friend to Fame' story is a nice fun story
that anyone could enjoy, I also have a G/PG rated version where I
deleted a small part of one paragraph. In this one case, you have the
option of which one you read. I did this because the extension of this
story 'The Chess Club' is suitable for most people, and I didn't want
to make the first part of a larger story inaccessable to those with
more delicat sensabilities. 

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

bboy_mn












From morrigan at byz.org  Mon Jan 13 01:39:44 2003
From: morrigan at byz.org (Vicki)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 19:39:44 -0600
Subject: The word 'slash'
In-Reply-To: <BA47AA83.537A%john@queerasjohn.com>
Message-ID: <OCEOIOOCLDBFPDHBBCEMOEKMCLAA.morrigan@byz.org>

-----Original Message-----
From: Queer as John

>However, what if one takes a look at more recent media culture. Would
>Will/Grace from _Will_and_Grace_ be slash? It would have to be sourced from
>the subtext, of course. Similarly, what about Brian/Melanie from
>_Queer_as_Folk_? Or Again, it's het, but is it slash?

>Thoughts?

Are you sure you weren't hiding and listening to a conversation I had
earlier?  This is exactly what we were discussing - in fact, I used the
Brian/Melanie as an example!  I think you need to get out of my head, John.
;)

In seriousness, I do believe they are slash.  To me, slash is any pairing
that goes against canon text or subtext, at least when we're looking at
purely the basis of the sexual orientation of the characters.  So while
Hermione/George isn't slash, Hermione/Ginny would be, because while there is
no canon subtext for Hermione and George to have a relationship, there IS
canon subtext that Hermione, Ginny and George are all heterosexual.  Again,
it's all subtext - as I love to point out, even those characters who seem
outwardly heterosexual could in fact be bisexual.  Assumptions and all of
that.

Morrigan
www.RestrictedSection.org
www.livejournal.com/users/hermorrine
www.byz.org/~morrigan/hpslash.html




From zorb47 at cox.net  Mon Jan 13 02:06:07 2003
From: zorb47 at cox.net (SaraG)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 18:06:07 -0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Loaded words and other gay issues (was: Fanfics with slash & sex...I don't get it)
References: <avsvse+ad17@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <009701c2baa8$564304e0$6401a8c0@ucsd.edu>

Just popping into the very interesting discussion for a moment...

ER:

Do you literally mean like those people who have that "disease" where 
they hear in colour, taste in sound, smell in words or whatever? Or 
are you just speaking loosely?

FYI, you're referring to synesthesia, and it's not at all a disease.  It's more helpful than anything else.

Zorb, a mild synesthete


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From fluxed at earthlink.net  Mon Jan 13 03:11:10 2003
From: fluxed at earthlink.net (vulgarweed <fluxed@earthlink.net>)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 03:11:10 -0000
Subject: Loaded words and other gay issues (was: Fanfics with slash & sex...I don't get it)
In-Reply-To: <avsvse+ad17@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <avtaoe+nm26@eGroups.com>

> > Frankly, if Joe and Jane Six-Pack are letting Little Joey and 
> Little Suzie
> > roam around the Internet unsupervised,  reading slash is the 
least 
> of our
> > concerns. 
> > 
> 

ER:
> But as we can do something about it, why not do it? The longest 
march 
> begins with the first step or whatever it was.

Well, what do you mean, "doing something about it?" Do you mean 
limiting the free speech of adults to "protect" children from the 
vaguely defined "threat" of stumbling across erotic fiction?

Sorry, that's not acceptable. Noway, nohow. 

It's not like the Internet is unique in this way either--where I 
live, any kid can walk into the gigantic chain bookstore and flip 
through all sorts of novels, which may or may not be sexually 
explicit (which are usually NOT clearly labelled). In fact, flat-out 
porn novels are in the "Erotica" section, which is right next 
to "Psychology." It's usually only _visual_ media which is monitored 
at all.

I don't actually think this is necessarily a bad thing. If they're 
not old enough to be interested, they'll say "ew" and toss it away. 
If they are, what's the harm in them exploring their new feelings 
through reading and writing? I may be old-school, but I read all 
sorts of smut in jr. high (everybody's copy of _Clan of the Cave 
Bear_ fell open at the *exact same page,* folks) and don't think it 
did me any harm.

AV




From southernscotland at yahoo.com  Mon Jan 13 03:53:13 2003
From: southernscotland at yahoo.com (southernscotland <southernscotland@yahoo.com>)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 03:53:13 -0000
Subject: slash
Message-ID: <avtd79+d8d4@eGroups.com>

I have to say that I am very surprised and quite disappointed in the 
tone set by some of the folks on this list about this topic. People 
whose posts I have read and respected for over a year now. 

I feel that the persons who brought up their frustrations about the 
labelling of fiction, including me, were asking about it in a 
reasonable way. To me, not all the responses they received, however, 
were reasonable. I am not a person who flames slash fiction, nor am 
I one who tries to label others. I just do not prefer it.

I do not think that some of us need to be called names for this.

I think perhaps the next question I need to ask is: where can I find 
sites which might not feature slash fiction? I hope I will not be 
flamed for this inquiry.


lilahp (who is beginning to feel decidedly unwelcome in this group 
as of late)


 




From bloubet at incanmonkey.com  Mon Jan 13 04:04:15 2003
From: bloubet at incanmonkey.com (bloubet at incanmonkey.com)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 21:04:15 -0700 (MST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Slytherins; "loaded" language
In-Reply-To: <1042406949.1279.91189.m7@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <1042430655.76145@incanmonkey.com>

From: "ER <ression at hotmail.com>"

"bel" wrote -

>> IMO, this is leading up to making a point that every person might
find something different to get offended by. Personally, I would be
very offended if JKR would write the Slytherins (any of them) as
smokers, or as addicted to drugs, or alcoholics. It just doesn't add
up.

>Strange, if you'd asked me I'd have said that was just _their_ sort
of thing! You're a Slytherin fan, right?

Original quote here was Meira, not me. But I have to agree with her, and I'm ALWAYS sorted into Gryffindor! <grin> Addictive behavior isn't particularly goal-oriented, IMHO, especially when it involves "altered states" like drugs and alcohol do. Slytherins are cunning and will do whatever it takes to reach their goals. Drugs and alcohol are distractions.

Re: "loaded" language. I agree that language with negative connotations should be avoided, in order to promote intelligent, reasoned discussion (which I believe is what we're all here for, and have been so glad to find <grin>). However, the problem is that there is no "Loaded Language Lexicon" to let us know what everyone else on the list might be offended by. IMHO, we need to be a little more thick-skinned about our own personal vocabulary twitches and more willing to give a person the benefit of the doubt and ask for a clarification. (Mind you, this discussion about language does seem to be more friendly than it was in the first exchange or two, so I'm thinking that my suggestion doesn't so much apply to it anymore -- just to the future. <grin> BTW, I'm 5'2" and my knees STILL hit some airline seats. Argh.)

Re: "normal" in particular. I'm not sure I can think of a way to say this that isn't cliched or fraught with groan-worthy "PC-ness". <grin> Several of my friends are gay. I've had a fairly extensive exposure to the gay community in my area. Some of my friends wish I were gay. <grin> (They swear I'd be easy to matchmake in the gay community, but I'm still holding out for a guy. What can I say? <grin>) Anyway, weak attempts at humor aside, the gays that I know do certainly have "twitch words" (as do we all) -- things like "deviant", "abnormal", etc. as John says. "Normal", however, they tend to take in context (which is difficult to do in email). "That's just not normal!" from a stranger, or from someone who has professed homophobia, would be insulting. "We don't need to label something written from a normal viewpoint," might raise eyebrows from distant friends and require a clarification, but close friends would know that I meant "societal norm" or "cultural average", and not!
 the opposite of "abnormal" (connotationally). "Girl, you just ain't normal!" on the other hand, would garner wiggling eyebrows and a "And proud of it!" <grin> Context and prior experience of both the writer and the reader are all important when determining intent. IMHO, if you're not sure of the writer's prior experience, you should ask.

Re: 61-year-olds being disappointed in my 21-60 age cutoff for romance applications. You're right, I should certainly have inserted the disclaimer: "Age is, however, relative, and any male over the age of 17 will be considered for the first screening." <VBG>

bel
No sig here either, but there are so MANY good ones to choose from... (And someone else already got my favorite Harry quote: "What, drop my wand?" <grin>)



From tahewitt at yahoo.com  Mon Jan 13 07:34:56 2003
From: tahewitt at yahoo.com (Tyler Hewitt)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 23:34:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: stuff
In-Reply-To: <1042427472.1224.99209.m11@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20030113073456.89039.qmail@web14206.mail.yahoo.com>

Hi
New to this list (Subbed to HP for Grownups about 1 
1/2 weeks ago)

Don't really want to jump into the very heated
discussion of slash fan fic quite yet (I'm more
interested in it as sociolocigal phenomena than I am
for its content), but thought instead I'd throw my two
cents in about A Confederacy of Dunces, which was
recommended here recently.I read that book last summer
after hearing people rave about it for years. I don't
know, I just didn't think it was that great. There
were some funny parts, but overall I found it just
kind of sat there for me. Didn't think it was
particularly well-written either. Granted, I seem to
be the only person to read this book and feel this way
about it, somaybe I just missed something there. If
you do get around to reading it, it's amusing to
imagine Ignatious' speaking voice as sounding like the
comic book guy on the Simpsons (actually, everything
about Ignatious reminds me of comic book guy-I wonder
if the Simpsons writers did this intentionally?).

For funny books, I have to recommend nearly anything
by Daniel Pinkwater. He writes mostly children's books
that seem much more popular with adults than kids.
Many of his best works are out of print, but you won't
be disappointed if you track down copies of 'Alan
Menholson, the Boy from Mars', 'Young Adult Novel'
'Lizard Music' or either of the Snarkout Boys books.
All great, all hysterically funny, and he uses name
irony nearly as well as JK Rowling.

Tyler

__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
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From the.gremlin at verizon.net  Mon Jan 13 08:31:59 2003
From: the.gremlin at verizon.net (the.gremlin at verizon.net)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 2:31:59 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Fics with slash, children's books, the purpose of my schpiel on warnings (in other words, multiple responses)
Message-ID: <20030113083159.GVRZ16306.out005.verizon.net@[127.0.0.1]>

I wrote: 
"Also, in anime fanfic, male homosexual relationships *w/o sex (and this refers anything that would lead to arousal)* were stated with a "shonen-ai" warning, which, translated into English, means "boy-love." Female homosexual relationships w/o sex were referred to as "shojo-ai", meanining "girl-love." Anything with sex in it was called a lemon."

To which Heidi replied:
"I find this interesting as a glimpse into another fandom (although I must point out that most of the HP fanficcers when the fandom was just getting started (about 3ish years ago) had never done fanfic in any other fandom before, and had no idea what the conventions and stylings from other fandoms were) but I'm a bit confused about something - what is "anything that would lead to arousal"? Is it feelings generated in the reader? In the characters? It's an interesting gague, and I can certainly think of fics where it would be relevant, but..."

It was my attempt at tact, apparenly I was too tactful (is that a word?) Basically, anything with the word 'sex' attached to it (i.e., oral sex), hand jobs, masturbation, anything leading to an orgasm, and I would categorize anything leading to a physical reaction that does not happen to 6th grade school girls who are talking to their crush for the first time. Those would be labeled 'lemon' (or any form of citrus fruit, if the writer was feeling snarky),  and shonen-ai would be the "Oh, he's so hot, I have suc a big crush on him, I wonder what it would be like to kiss him, I hope he feels the same way too" (though not quite as obvious and badly written, though I've seen worse) type thing.

Hmm, I suppose you don't see too many Japanese anime/Harry Potter crossovers. I was a little surpriesd to see that HP fanfic writers were just starting out on their first fanfics, but then I have very eclectic tastes and my friends think it's all right to write fanfic for anime, but think I'm obsessed when I mention reading HP fics. 

-Acire, who thinks OOC (*o*ut *o*f *c*haracter, also used in anime) fics should be rated as well, such as Snape turning out to have a dominating wife and 6 mini-Snapes stashed away in England somewheres, or Lucius Malfoy rescuing puppy dogs. :D


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From the.gremlin at verizon.net  Mon Jan 13 08:42:40 2003
From: the.gremlin at verizon.net (the.gremlin at verizon.net)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 2:42:40 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Of love and LOLLIPOPS
Message-ID: <20030113084240.GVYY16306.out005.verizon.net@[127.0.0.1]>

Tabouli wrote:
"Heh heh heh.  Resistance is useless.  Even those who detest the very idea of LOLLIPOPS have to admit it fits very neatly with the evidence <snip Elkins part>."

I have seen many posts on LOLLIPOPS and I still don't get how you guys came up with it. So far all I've seen is the fact that Snape never says *anything* about Lily-good or bad. And the "who's voice did Harry hear with the Dementors" thing.

"Liking it or not is not the issue here.  You can board the Good Ship while hating every timber, if you like."

I took one trip into Theory Bay and I left that tavern when people kept stepping on my feet. I pretty much stayed in the corner, on a bar stool, piping in now and then, eventually giving up when I realized I had finals to study for. As for the Ships, I can't tell one from the other (except for LOLLIPOPS and it looks like the Titanic from where I'm standing), and I've only been on a boat about 3 times in my life and prefer the shoreline, thank you. 

-Acire, who very much wants Snape to have some kind of familial attachement, or friendly attachment, rather than romantic.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Mon Jan 13 09:30:58 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve <bboy_mn@yahoo.com>)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 09:30:58 -0000
Subject: stuff (Confed. of Dunces)
In-Reply-To: <20030113073456.89039.qmail@web14206.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <avu10i+u964@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Tyler Hewitt <tahewitt at y...>
wrote:
> Hi
> New to this list (Subbed to HP for Grownups about 1 
> 1/2 weeks ago)
> 
> ... thought instead I'd throw my two cents in about A Confederacy 
> of Dunces, which was recommended here recently. I read that book 
> last summer after hearing people rave about it for years. I don't
> know, I just didn't think it was that great. There were some funny 
> parts, but overall I found it just kind of sat there for me. 
> ...edited...
> 
> For funny books, I have to recommend nearly anything
> by Daniel Pinkwater. ...edited....
>
> Tyler

bboy_mn who recommended the book replies:

And I like vanilla ice cream, but my friends all like chocolate. Well,
except for those real oddballs who like strawberry, but we don't talk
about them.  ;) (humor, in case it didn't come through)

'A Confederacy of Dunces', as I'm sure you will confirm, is a very
very unusual book; with a writing style like no other. So certainly
some people are going to find it a little odd... well, very odd. And
because it is very unusual, that quirkiness is not going to work for
some people. It does tend to have long running dialogs as we read what
Ignatius is currently writing in his journal, and since the guy is a
bit barmy, his writing takes on an additional strangeness. But in a
way that's the humor, the absurdity of the oddball collection of
strange characters and poor souls whose path cross in the strangest of
ways. Calling it a comedy doesn't quite do it justice. It's more like
a roll on the floor, bust a gut, laugh out loud tragedy.  

But I think in general, most people will find it satisfyingly funny.
Like I said they don't give away Pulitzer Prizes like peanuts. You
have to seroiusly impress somebody to get one.

Thanks for the heads up on Daniel Pinkwater, that does sound like
something I might enjoy.


bboy_mn








From sushi at societyhappens.com  Mon Jan 13 10:40:10 2003
From: sushi at societyhappens.com (Sushi)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 04:40:10 -0600
Subject: OOC-ness (was: Fics with slash, children's books, the purpose
  of my schpiel on warnings)
In-Reply-To: <20030113083159.GVRZ16306.out005.verizon.net@[127.0.0.1]>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030113043759.02635e50@mail.societyhappens.com>


>-Acire, who thinks OOC (*o*ut *o*f *c*haracter, also used in anime) fics 
>should be rated as well, such as Snape turning out to have a dominating 
>wife and 6 mini-Snapes stashed away in England somewheres, or Lucius 
>Malfoy rescuing puppy dogs. :D

         Yes, well, this *is* Lucius we're talking about.  It all depends 
on what he does with the poor little things once he's rescued them. *shudders*

Sushi, who swears it's possible to justify almost any OOC behaviour well 
enough to put it back into character (note I said "almost")


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From lupinesque at yahoo.com  Mon Jan 13 10:42:24 2003
From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z <lupinesque@yahoo.com>)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 10:42:24 -0000
Subject: Of love and LOLLIPOPS
In-Reply-To: <002701c2ba19$a6a25380$082432d2@price>
Message-ID: <avu56g+3of8@eGroups.com>

Cap'n Tabouli wrote:

> As for the driving force of Lurv, like it or not, it *does* happen, 
>as well you anti-romantics know.  Eros is a powerful force.  People 
>make all manner of drastic decisions as a result of their sexual 
>relationships.  

Yes, all true, but I still don't want Snape to have been motivated by 
the Love, or Lurv, of a Woman, or the longing for such.  I think what 
I like least about it is a different twist of the Romantic Paradigm:  
the way it makes a woman the prize in a primitive battle between the 
chest-beating men.  Snape doesn't hate James because he was a popular 
guy whose personal characteristics rubbed Snape the wrong way, no 
sir, he hates him because He Got Snape's Woman.  As if men can't hate 
each other just fine without a Woman involved somehow.

Just as Lurv *is* a driving force, I fully concede that in real life, 
women *do* play the role of Grand Prize (even with agency intact), 
and men *do* ruin their lives and each others' vying for it.  I just 
don't find it a very interesting dynamic for fiction, unless explored 
in a lot more depth than "I loved her, she went with him, I'm going 
to hate him and his offspring forever."  My comfort is that Snape is 
a complex character and likely to remain so even if Lurv does figure 
into it.  He has all those delicious complications, like loyalty, 
guilt, and (my pet interpretation) a lot more in common with Harry 
than he would care to admit.

Amy
suspiciously on-topic




From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk  Mon Jan 13 10:45:33 2003
From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 10:45:33 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] OOC-ness (was: Fics with slash, children's books, the purpose of my schpiel on warnings)
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030113043759.02635e50@mail.societyhappens.com>
Message-ID: <3E2298CD.000001.71897@monica>



-------Original Message-------

From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
Date: 13 January 2003 10:38:04
To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] OOC-ness (was: Fics with slash, children's books,
the purpose of my schpiel on warnings)


>-Acire, who thinks OOC (*o*ut *o*f *c*haracter, also used in anime) fics 
>should be rated as well, such as Snape turning out to have a dominating 
>wife and 6 mini-Snapes stashed away in England somewheres, or Lucius 
>Malfoy rescuing puppy dogs. :D

Yes, well, this *is* Lucius we're talking about. It all depends 
on what he does with the poor little things once he's rescued them.
*shudders*

Sushi, who swears it's possible to justify almost any OOC behaviour well 
enough to put it back into character (note I said "almost")

I find it is very difficult to define exactly what is OOC for the majority
of HP characters. Unless you're writing about the intrepid trio that is. The
books show us events as they happen from the POV of Harry Potter - who is a
fairly biased audience bearing in mind his hatred of all things Slytherin
and his steadfast belief that Severus is out to kill him. As such in my
fiction any actions taken while in private or in the company of other adults
only I can justify as being perfectly in character since we have no way of
knowing how Sev reacts to things in the privacy of his own rooms, or how
Minerva and Albus act when alone or in the staff room etc. 

In my reading of canon (for example) I see Minerva and Severus as having a
fairly amicable relationship (I don't believe their house rivalry is
anything but friendly) but since we have only seen how they interact in
public and more importantly IMHO in front of their students we have no way
of definitively stating how thay act towards one another in private. An
interpretation where they actually hate one another and enjoy a relationship
as friendly as that between Severus and Sirius would be equally as valid
(again IMHO) as one where they are bosem friends (and you do not want to
know what I typed originally to make that point, suffice to say I may never
get the image out of my head <g>)

K



From HebrideanBlack2002 at hotmail.com  Mon Jan 13 11:33:37 2003
From: HebrideanBlack2002 at hotmail.com (Wendy St. John)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 11:33:37 +0000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] "Mudblood"
Message-ID: <F70wQ21ju2iDL6e5f6W00015c39@hotmail.com>




Well, Ive had two responses so far to my post about how I find using the 
term Mudblood rather offensive  one for, and one against. I must say that 
I *much* prefer Melodys response, as she agrees with me! <G>

So THANKS! to Melody, who wrote:

It should not be used flippantly, in my opinion, when "muggle-born" is a 
much nicer word to use and does not carry the baggage of mudblood".  Can we 
make an appeal on the main site to not use "mudblood" in vain?

But then again, maybe I too am taking HP too seriously.  But then
again, don't we all?

Now me:

Yes! Melody  I think many of us *do* take it very seriously (more on this 
below, in my response to Audra). Im glad Im not the only one! <G> And Im 
not sure whether or not an appeal on the main list would be appropriate  
thats why I posted this on the OT list  I wanted to say something to bring 
it to peoples attention, but Im not sure if its appropriate for the main 
list or not (thats a question for the mods, I suppose). I dont want to be 
the bad language police or anything <g>, I just wanted to express that its 
something *Ive* noticed, and thought that others might as well. Plus, 
perhaps there are people using the term thoughtlessly, who might choose not 
to use it if they really thought through the context of the word within the 
Potterverse. I suppose we could tag little comments to the end of our posts, 
though, just as an eye-opener to those who might not have considered this 
before. Hey  Im for this, if you are! :-)

Then again, Melody, not *everyone* agrees with us . . .


Audra wrote:

Yes, you *are* taking it far to seriously, IMO. You're blurring the line 
between fiction and reality.  The word "Mudblood" means nothing to us in 
reality.  The "N" word--if you can even compare it to that--has a history 
for for us in the real world, and is offensive to people in the real world.  
"Mudblood" is not an offensive term in the real world. It is a made-up 
offensive term in a book.

Why are you getting sensitive to it?  Are you a muggleborn witch? No.  Do 
you know or know of any muggleborn witches or wizards for whom you feel 
sensitive?   Not in the real world.  You're elevating the fictional 
characters to the state of real people, and sympathizing with them.

Now me:
I dont think Im blurring the line between reality and fiction. That makes 
me sound a bit daft, which I probably am, but not in *that* way! <G>.  I 
*do* know that Mudblood is not a real-world term. However, within the 
context of the Harry Potter books, it is a highly offensive term, and the 
purpose of these lists is to discuss the Harry Potter books. One of reasons 
so many of us enjoy the Harry Potter books is that the world JKR has created 
seems so very *real*. The characters are interesting and well-developed, and 
many of us are able to relate to them in a meaningful way. So youre right 
that I am sympathising with fictional characters, but I think thats the 
whole point. If I didnt care about these characters, I wouldnt be very 
interested in reading nor discussing the books, now, would I? And Im sure 
Im not the only one here who feels like that. So, Im sympathising  yes. 
But that doesnt mean that Ive elevated them to the state of real people. I 
do still know the difference (most days, anyway <g>). At times, the 
situations in the books remind me of things in real life (again, isnt that 
what makes it interesting?), and discussing these things can be, for me, a 
way of thinking about real-world issues, as well. But, having said all that, 
there are also reasons *aside* from the Potterverse why the word makes me 
feel uncomfortable.

Of course the N word has a historical context in the real world, and as I 
said, my reaction to it is *much* stronger than to the term Mudblood. And, 
no, Im not a Muggle-born witch, so the term Mudblood doesnt offend me as 
a personal insult. By the same token, Im a white woman, so the N word 
isnt personally offensive to me in that way, either. As for knowing any 
Muggleborn witches for whom I feel sensitive, obviously not  but then I 
also dont think Ive ever been in a situation where Ive heard someone call 
a black person a n*gger in front of me. That still doesnt mean I dont 
find the term *highly* offensive when used in my presence, whether or not 
there is anyone in the room who might be personally offended. Its more a 
matter of what I perceive to be the sensitivity of the person speaking. And 
if you dont like the parallel between Mudblood and the N word, there are 
others I could make. I know a woman who calls eating at a Chinese restaurant 
going for a Chinkie. That bugs me, not because Im personally offended 
by the term (not being Chinese, either), but because it leads me to believe 
that she is, at best, insensitive (or perhaps ignorant), and at worst, a 
bigot.

The point is that there are certain words which are known in our culture to 
be offensive. And when people use those words, they can expect for others to 
have a reaction based on the relative appropriateness of the language. The 
same applies to swear words, IMO. If I were to go around peppering my casual 
conversations with words like f*ck and sh*t, people would make judgements 
about me based on my choice of language. Which would certainly be my 
prerogative, should I choose to speak like that, but then I also shouldnt 
complain when people make assumptions about me based on my choice of words. 
In the example I use above regarding Chinese food, this woman is only 
someone Ive spoken to twice, so I really dont know much about her 
attitudes and personality. She seems like a nice person, and maybe she just 
doesnt know that Chinkie could be perceived as offensive. And if she was 
someone with whom I knew Id be having more contact in the future (a 
co-worker, or in-law, for example), then I would probably try and discuss 
the matter with her to find out why shes using this term. Does she know 
that its offensive? And maybe it isnt within her (Scottish) culture. Im 
an American living here, and some things *are* different. But since I will 
probably never see this particular person again, I wont have the 
opportunity to find out. And I dont hate her or anything, but I do have 
less respect and liking for her than I would otherwise have had.

Thats the same feeling I get here when someone uses Mudblood 
gratuitously. Not that the term is personally offensive to me  but it does 
make me wonder about the sensitivity of the poster. And yes, I do see your 
point that it is not a real-world term, and therefore would not be offensive 
if I were to say it in the middle of the supermarket, for example. Youre 
right - in our real world culture, it doesnt have any meaning. But I 
suggest that within the culture of the HP for Grownups lists, it *does* have 
meaning and it *is* an offensive term. On these lists, weve all read the 
books and know the context of the term, and understand that it is meant to 
be highly offensive, and not a term one commonly hears in polite society. 
(Unfortunately, my books are unavailable right now, so I cant quote the 
exact words from CoS  Im experiencing movie poisoning, having a vision of 
Hermione in tears in Hagrids hut).

Fact is, I dislike the use of the term, and I will continue to do so. And of 
course, you can disagree with me, if you like, and think Im taking things 
too seriously. But Ill probably decide that youre not the worlds most 
sensitive soul because of it! LOL! And, while I was a bit put off by your 
post the first time I read it, Audra, (I do think you were perhaps a bit 
harsh with me. I dont have the HP audio tapes, after all <G>) it did help 
me think through more deeply *why* the word bothers me, and Ive come to the 
conclusion that it really *does* bother me. Which doesnt mean that anyone 
else on this list has to care or do anything different. Im not asking that, 
at all. But the use of the term will continue to have an affect on the way I 
perceive the people who use it, which can be said for lots and lots of 
things here on the list, right? And at least Ive said something about it, 
which, whether it has an affect on anyone or anything else, at least makes 
me feel better about having gotten it off my chest.

:-)
Wendy






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From sushi at societyhappens.com  Mon Jan 13 11:56:19 2003
From: sushi at societyhappens.com (Sushi)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 05:56:19 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] OOC-ness (was: Fics with slash,
  children's books, the purpose of my schpiel on warnings)
In-Reply-To: <3E2298CD.000001.71897@monica>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030113043759.02635e50@mail.societyhappens.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030113053425.02630d90@mail.societyhappens.com>


>In my reading of canon (for example) I see Minerva and Severus as having a
>fairly amicable relationship (I don't believe their house rivalry is
>anything but friendly) but since we have only seen how they interact in
>public and more importantly IMHO in front of their students we have no way
>of definitively stating how thay act towards one another in private. An
>interpretation where they actually hate one another and enjoy a relationship
>as friendly as that between Severus and Sirius would be equally as valid
>(again IMHO) as one where they are bosem friends (and you do not want to
>know what I typed originally to make that point, suffice to say I may never
>get the image out of my head <g>)

         I don't think it truly *can* be justified that Severus and Minerva 
hate each other, if only for one line (I think this was in PoA, I'll have 
to reread all of the books to be sure - oh, the torture ;)):

         Regarding the Quidditch Cup, and Gryffindor's repeated loss to 
Slytherin, McGonagall said, "I couldn't look Severus Snape in the eye for a 
week."

         That, to me, is absolute proof that these two are friends.  If 
they were enemies, she'd be glaring at him every chance she got in that 
week, or just wouldn't be in a position to look him in the eye, period.  (I 
daresay there was money involved as well.  Or alcohol.  Or possibly 
supervision of a certain number of detentions.  In any case, they both 
strike me as the gambling type when the stakes are that high - Minerva is 
gaga over Quidditch, and... well, Severus is a spy.  He gambles with his 
life every minute, so a few Galleons aren't exactly going to be the end-all 
and be-all of his existence.)

         Now, I just want to see a canon example of a women vs. men Trivial 
Pursuit marathon for the Hogwarts staff with Sevvie and Minnie snarking 
across the board at each other, and I can die happy. ;)

Sushi, keeper of Hogwarts' Trivial Pursuit, Ninth Wizarding Edition card boxes


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From HebrideanBlack2002 at hotmail.com  Mon Jan 13 12:28:55 2003
From: HebrideanBlack2002 at hotmail.com (Wendy St. John)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 12:28:55 +0000
Subject: CoS Trivia Game
Message-ID: <F175niNXZ2gLqhmQDfL000094e1@hotmail.com>


Hello, Everyone,

When Sushi mentioned that she* is the "keeper of Hogwarts' Trivial Pursuit, 
Ninth Wizarding Edition card boxes," this reminded me of something I'd been 
looking for but haven't found . . .

Is there a Harry Potter Trivia Game for Chamber of Secrets? I don't remember 
the exact name of the game, but around the time the first movie opened, they 
came out with a trivia game based on the PS/SS books. (It came in different 
editions - I have the "prefects" one). It's really a great game (assuming 
you know people who are also familiar enough with the books to be willing to 
play), and I'd hoped that they would come out with one for Chamber of 
Secrets, but I haven't seen one. Has anyone else seen it? Maybe they're not 
selling them in the UK (although that's where I bought the first one).

Wendy
(Who was totally *crushed* when, playing the first game, she gave a wrong 
answer to the question: what is the text for first-year Potions class? I 
said, "Magical Draughts and Potions by Arsenius Jigger," and the answer was 
the Phyllida Spore book about Magical Herbs and Fungi. Technically, I was 
also right, as they are *both* first-year texts. But my husband wouldn't 
give it to me, as the card was asking for the Spore text. <grumble, grumble> 
I think I whooped his b*tt anyway! <VEG>).

P.S. I'm hoping I'm correct that Sushi is a "she" - if not, please let me 
know, and accept my apology for misinterpreting your gender!





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From heidit at netbox.com  Mon Jan 13 12:34:15 2003
From: heidit at netbox.com (heiditandy)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 07:34:15 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Fanfics, ratings & heated responses (LONG)
In-Reply-To: <avs0j0+i62q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <017b01c2bb00$1deb01d0$0301a8c0@Frodo>

Author's Note: I started writing this around 1pm yesterday, then got
called away from the computer for birthday celebrations (mine!) and now,
at 6am, it's my first chance to finish it up, so I know I will have
missed some posts and I know that I'm replying to things that might have
been clarified/explained in subsequent posts, so please, bear with me.
And Acire, thanks for the clarification - it really did make it much
clearer. 

Diana, was it you who called me an activist? I'm not, really. I'm a
working mom, and I don't have time, or, to be honest, the inclination,
for things like petition drives, fundraising or marches. To call me an
activist, simply because I personally believe that the same rules should
apply across the board to everyone, denigrates those who are truly
active in bringing about changes that they feel committed to.  All I do
is vote. 

Diana posted:
> John, and then later Heidi responded that they felt ER was 
> expressing possibly homophobic opinions about fanfic labelling.  
Diana, I am afraid you've not read my posts clearly. I actually hadn't
accused ER of homophobia - whether ER is or isn't is irrelevant to the
discussion, from my perspective, because the question people are
discussing here is, simply, what sort of warnings should be on fanfics
and why?

> 
> Haggrid then chimed in that she could see what ER was trying to say, 
> even though her word choice may have been poor.

(Um, Diana? Haggridd's a guy - just an FYI)

> First off, I would like to point out that not wanting to read about 
> same-sex couples having sex does not make a person a homophobe.  

You're absolutely right - it doesn't. There are a lot of people who
don't enjoy reading about sexual activity, regardless of the gender of
the participants, and I respect that perspective. I have a number of
friends who share it, and to be honest, I'm not a fan of graphic stories
myself.

What I've been trying to focus on, in my posts, is that there is a
difference between the following four things (yes, I know that they are
not necessarily mutually exclusive, but let's pretend for the sake of
this argument that they are):
1. Gay characters who are engaged in no romantic or sexual behaviour in
the context of a story
2. Gay characters who are engaged in romantic behaviour in the context
of a story, but where sex is entirely absent, and/or entirely offpage.
3. Gay characters who are engaged in romantic behaviour *and* sexual
behaviour on a level with snogging, handholding, "I Love You"'s and
other things that you would see heterosexual characters engaged in in
your average Disney film. 
4. Gay characters who engage in sexual behaviour above the level of that
described in "level three".

Diana, what I am trying to clarify is what you consider "having sex" -
is it handholding? Kissing? Petting? Or just intercourse? Personally, I
do consider both petting and intercourse within the realm of "having
sex" or "sexual activity" but I don't consider snogging to reach that
level. 

If you don't want to read level four in my chart above, fine - I agree
that fics should contain an appropriate rating if such behaviour is
engaged in, regardless of whether the participants are gay or straight.
If you have issues with reading level three, then you should pay close
attention to the summary of a fic and avoid those where the summary
seems to contain that type of behaviour.

If you have problems with levels 1 and 2, then no amount of rating or
summarizing information is going to be of help 100% of the time for you,
because not all authors are willing to spoil things in the narrative
with the summary. And I don't see how even the perfect informational
system you describe (which actually contains many elements of the sort
that I said, a few days ago, we are developing for FictionAlley and
expect to release this spring (post 13166) would physically be able to
cover or list all the pairings in some of the novel length fics on FA. I
mean, we're talking about fics in the range of 500 pages in MS word,
covering years, if not decades, and incorporating original characters as
well. There will still be glitches and misses and things that are not
incorporated with precision. 

Diana also wrote:
> Regardless of what I choose to read, I should be able to have a 
> rough idea of what to expect if choosing to read a work of amateur 
> fiction about characters I've already got my mind set about.  I've 
> read all four books and decided for myself what sexual orientation 
> some the characters are and who they're attracted to, and I don't 
> welcome someone barging into my vision and telling me I've got it 
> all wrong. Or, worse, thrusting images into my mind of scenes I 
> definitely don't want to be part of my Harry Potter experience. 

Then don't read fanfic. Who is forcing you to? (I won't even get into
the issue of "amateur" and how that is so derogatory to the works
written by professional authors.)  But, as I think Barb said earlier, if
you are so convinced about everything in the books, why are you on a
discussion list about HP? 

Btw, your statement makes me wonder if you read all 4 books at once, and
if you're really spent that much time pondering Newt Scamander and
Eloise Midgen and what canon you're looking to in making determinations
about them, but that's because I'm always curious about how people make
determinations about various things in canon, and what they heck they're
going to do when JKR counters those determinations in later books. But I
can say that as I read each book separately and months, if not years,
apart, as I waited for each to be released, and she's confounded my
expectations every time. 

> Would you enjoy browsing through a book 
> store if you had to look through a list of synopses of all the books 
> in there, all mixed up to boot?  After you'd looked through a few 
> pages of synopses with books on gardening, how to raise a troubled 
> kid, the art of film noir, chinese fan-making techniques, a bio of a 
> 1950s movie star, collecting plates, the history of the lobster, 
> understanding calculus, the latest romance novel, the 
> repacked best- selling sci-fi epic, how to grow mushrooms and 
> so on you'd be pretty 
> frustrated that it wasn't easier to get to exactly what you wanted 
> to read and how to avoid what you were not interested in.

Yes but...

If I wanted to read only fiction, I'd certainly not mind reading a list
of titles and summaries of only fictive works. I've been doing that on
Amazon for about 8 years now, and it's a great way to find new things.
But if you don't like that approach, go and only read based on
recommendations - it's a very sensible way to pick and choose what you
might like. 
 
> For this reason, massive fanfic sites 
> that have every single story sorted by all pairings contained within 
> and then by how graphic the story as far as sex and violence will 
> probably never actually exist.  

Right, because you've thrown the word "all" in there. And as I said
above, we're dealing with, in the case of FA, story arcs that are
hundreds of pages long, where relationships come, go, grow and develop.
And what would the phrase Linda Potter/Joey Malfoy mean to you anyway,
without a summary? But if you look for "primary" or "integral" or "focus
of the story", then, as I said a few days ago, FA will have that this
spring. 

> Well, start by making the 
> pairings and ratings clear BEFORE a synopsis is given.  Links to a 
> synopsis can be anchored on the same page, just further down.  Why 
> do I suggest this?  Because I visited the fictionalley website just 
> a few days ago after all the heated discussion on this list.  While 
> casually browsing the synopses, and still unfamiliar with the layout 
> and the placement of warnings and pairings, I read some synopses 
> [basiclly blurbs to try to get the browser to read the story] and 
> winced at the unwanted images that sprang to mind when I read a few 
> of them.  I will spare others the same fate by not quoting a couple 
> I read there. 
> 
Well, I hope that you at least have the courtesy to let the site admins
(aka me or Barb) know if you found anything R-rated on the sumamry page
- there shouldn't be any! We try to make sure that there are none, but
as we're pushing 17,000 stories and chapters right now, there might be a
few things that missed our eye. All the summaries should be PG-13 rated
or less, as it says in the ToU, and anything otherwise should be
reported to the admins. If you don't want to report things to us, then
we can't be expected to know what troubles you, in particular. However,
we're very responsive to user requests and comments, when we actually
are notified about them. 

ER wrote, on a related issue:
> In an ideal world yes, but it ain't going to happen and we shouldn't 
> (where practical) subject the child to the failings of the parent 
> when we can so easily (from my POV) avoid it.

And Diana also posted:

Back to Diana:
> As for the ratings for sexual and violent content, we are [almost] 
> all adults on this list and can handle most things, even if the 
> pairings or content isn't our usual preference, but children, who 
> can and do access fanfic sites on the internet can't discern those 
> differences as well and might think they can handle more than they 
> really can or just don't know what the ratings mean.  
> Clear, accurate, ratings would help solve this problem a great deal, 
> assuming children didn't seek out the most explicitly rated stories 
> just because of the "need to see what that stuff is about" factor.

Yes, ER, you're absolutely right - we can, on FA, have children under 17
avoid accidentally stumbling across an R-rated fic. We've had something
in place for *months* that prevents kids under 17 from reading anything
rated R unless they state that their parents would approve. In other
words, if you're under 17 and your parents would disaprove, you have to
*lie* to read the R-rated fics. We have also sent information about FA
to sites like NetNanny and SurfWatch, telling them that the site is
rated PG-13.  There is nothing else we could do for under a few thousand
dollars (which we do NOT have) to prevent under-17s from accessing the
site. We prohibit kids under 13 from registering (which is required to
participate in the Park and review fics as a registered user. Prohibit.
They have to, again, lie, and if we find out about it, they are banned.
Yes, they can read fics, but, again, not the R-rated ones. 

I am a parent, and I certainly plan to block a selection of specific
websites from my computer when my son is old enough to get on the
computer himself and read what is there. Schools, at this point, are
generally required to block sites that are not approved, or which show
up in things like NetNanny, and there is no excuse for a parent who
pleads concern about what their child sees online to not obtain a
program like NetNanny or SurfWatch (which, btw, I think overblock in a
considerable way, but if you're that concerned about what your child
sees on the computer, then you should get it).

Diana, again: 
> My son is nine and he does not know what the term slash when applied 
> to fiction means.  I have not had the opportunity or desire to 
> explain it just yet.  

I didn't know what it meant when I was 28. 

> He does know about heterosexual sex and 
> homosexuality, but not every explicit detail - there's no need for 
> that until he needs more information and asks for it, then I'll 
> answer his questions.  He does not need to find a fanfic site and 
> read all these synopses.  

What explicit synopsis? Again, I ask you to let me know, offlist, what
you consider explicit synopsises. 

Oh, and FA has a glossary, linked to from the Newbies' Guide (on the
front page and other pages inside) and the FAQ, which explains a large
number of definitions, including slash. Useful tool, that.

> 
> As far as being an adult and stumbling across fanfiction I have no 
> interest in, I am frustrated in what the fanfic sites lack - and 
> that is comprehensive classification on the most basic level.  I 
> mean basic sorting, then further sorting all the way down to fine 
> tuned sorting of what the stories main pairings and sex/violence 
> content really are.  If I don't want to read any slash pairings, but 
> want an R-rated Harry/Hermione as grown-ups story, then I sould be 
> able to find it easily by looking under "het or non-
> slash", "Harry/Hermione", then "R-rated for sex and violence" or if 
> I want to read chaste slash Minevera/Sprout pairings, then I should 
> be able to look under "slash", "Minerva/Sprout", then "G rated, no 
> sex, no violence" and then read through the synopses to pick a 
> story.  No matter my preference, I could find what I wanted and 
> avoid what I didn't want with ease.  Many more fanfics would be read 
> with this sort of system.  

Well, we're not going to have a demarcation page where you can select
slash, gen or het, simply because there are far too many fics which
cover more than one category, but if you want to limit in and limit out
SHIPs and violence levels, that will, as I said earlier this week
(actually, I may not have mentioned the violence thing then but...) will
be available on FA later this spring. 

> Do I personally think all the HP characters are "good little 
> heterosexuals", which is an attitude John and Heidi seem to be 
> ascribing to anyone who isn't jumping with joy over all those slash 
> fiction choices we're missing out on reading?  

I'm sorry, where on earth did I say that? Please, point me to a post and
the lines I used which make you believe that I ever said that. For the
record, I didn't. 

> I can't 
> force my own images onto others and I expect them to not do that to 
> me. 
> The fact I 
> don't want to read those stories and can't see the appeal in them 
> doesn't mean I'm recommending, let alone commanding, everyone else 
> to stop reading them.  
Well, yes you can because most authors are more gracious than that. But
I don't really understand what you're looking for here. You say you want
to have summaries, but the summaries put such nefarious images into your
mind that you cannot erase, even before you've read the fic. How can you
know what's in a fic sans summary, and how can a summary that is so
comprehensive not spoil the plot and development of the fic itself? 

ER wrote:

> >> I note that you cite the over-13 readership - it's my opinion that
> a
> >> substantial portion of the readership are under-14. And I think
> they
> >> need warnings.
> 

And your opinion comes from *what*, exactly? I run the site, I *know*
our demographics, and the fact that a large number of the hits to FA
come from college .edu ISPs. Look on FA's birthday list on any given day
- look at the ages. Now, obviously, under-13-year-olds cannot register
for FA at all, so they won't factor in on that list, but given that
prohibition against participation, against submitting fics, against
having an account on the site - what basis do you have for formulating
such an opnion? We've specifically not worked with sites like MuggleNet
in plugging FA, we don't do banner exchanges with the sites that cater
to the under-14 crowd and we don't plug ourselves over on the official
site, even though we could. Anyhow, the kids who were the 14 year olds
in the fandom 2 years ago are turning 16 this year (Hi, Maddy!) and are
much more mature, obviously, for it. 

If you have information - actual information - about a plethora of kids
under 13 on FA, please do let me know. We won't block them but we would
be cognizant of it. 

John wrote:
> >I *don't* feel that fics should be warned simply because they 
> contain gay
> >material. Pairings, yes. But "random gay people in the background", 
> or "male
> >character occasionally has thoughts about other men"? No.
> 
And ER replied:
> Agreed, if it is adult fic, but not if it is young fic. I guess we 
> just must disagree here.
What is the difference? I am asking because I've never heard the term
"young fic" before. Is that something written by a teenaged author?
Something with a G rating? Something that isn't NC-17? Please, clarify.
Because if you think that random gay people in the background of a PG
rated fic is something kids shouldn't be exposed to, then I wonder if
you're part of the group that's trying to ban Heather Has Two Mommies or
Daddy's Roommate in elementary schools. Or exactly what your problem is
with Will & Grace. 

In a later post, ER wrote (in response to John, I think)
> > Yes, that's right. Harry Potter, beating out "Daddy's Roommate"
> and "Heather
> > Has Two Mommies", numbers 2 and 11 of the 1990-2000 Most Frequently 
> > Challenged Books List.
> > 
> 
> Ballot-stuffing! How many votes are we talking about here? Hundreds, 
> thousands, millions?

Well, why don't you come to Nimbus - 2003 (http://www.hp2003.org) and
listen to Judith Krug, director of the American Library Association's
section that handles book banning issues, as the Friday luncheon keynote
speaker? She is going to address this, and it's already explained
extensively on the ALA.org website. 

(btw, ER, I ask you this as a favour - please don't put my name in
quotation marks - it's my real name (at least since 1996) and I am quite
googleable.)

Meira wrote:
> ME:
> Didn't JKR say in one of her interviews that she didn't write stuff 
> based on what would upset people and what wouldn't?
> 
ER replied:
> That's a bit mean of her, if we're talking about the younger readers?
Why is it mean? I *quoted* this yesterday (ER, did you even read my
post?) where she said, plain as day, that she writes for herself, and
does nto think that the books are appropriate for
under-8-or-9-year-olds. Why is this a bad thing? It sounds like you're
saying that things should be written for the lowest-level audience. Are
you?

Laura Ingalls Huntley said, about my reference to Rebecca's Darkness &
Light trilogy:
>>>As for the question of student-teacher relationships
(or, in a more general sense, sexual/romantic 
relationships between children and adults) -- I, for
one, think adults who have sex with children are evil. <<< 

I agree with you completely but...
Rebecca's fic involves a student who transfers to Hogwarts in her 6th
year, when she's already 17, and whose relationship with Snape builds
into a friendship and later a romance over, IIRC, a four year period.
She isn't his student when the romance begins, and she's certainly not a
child, but she is his apprentice and theoretically, there could be a
power imbalance there. There actually isn't, in the context. It's all
about the context. I personally think the idea of dating or marrying
someone who's 17 years older - or younger - be a bit icky, but I don't
see anything immoral about it when the younger party is well into
his/her 20s. My husband and I are 5 years apart - had we met and dated
when I was 13 and he 18, it would've been beyond icky, IMHO, but we met
10 years later - and there's no imbalance, and, IMHO, nothing wrong with
it. 

Then again, while I think that people should avoid premarital sex, at
least until adulthood, I also can't personally ascribe the term "evil"
to a 19 year old sophmore in college dating a 17 year old freshman. I
don't think you are either, Laura - I think you're saying that there has
to be more of an age and power imbalance there. 

Someone commented about my comment on Less Than Zero. Guys, it's not a
fanfic. It's a novel - Bret Easton Ellis, I think 1986? 1987? He wrote
it when he was 19 and was still in college (Bennington?) when it was
published to wide acclaim. 

And Vulgarweed - you're right about the issue of visual vs. text based
media being censored. Actually, given the Supreme Court ruling from last
April, anything text-based about kids of any age engaging in sexual
activity seems to be legal in the US. Doesn't mean I approve of it,
personally, but it's good that it's legal because if the decision that
the court struck down had remained law, Romeo & Juliet, American Beauty
and Traffic all could've been banned, just like The Tin Drum was in a
town in, IIRC, Ohio a few years back. Of couse, just because something
is allowed under the law doesn't mean it has to be available to everyone
of every age - that's one of the reasons FA doesn't have NC17 fics. 

LilaHP asks for sites that don't include slash. Well, as you'll find
slash on DiagonAlley, FictionAlley, SugarQuill, FFN, Eliza's HP Fanfic
Site and (I think, because they host After The End, GryffindorTower as
well) I really don't think you'll find a comprehensive site in this
fandom that has no fics that contain gay characters. And I don't say
this to be mean or cruel or denigrate your noninterest in reading fics
that contain gay or bi characters. It's just, well, the truth. There
might be smaller sites out there which have no fics that have gay
characters, but as Pumpkin Pie hosts Trouble in Paradise and PoU, you
can't go *there*. Perhaps the Tom/Ginny sites? Too many of the
Lily/James fics have Remus/Sirius in the background, so that won't do.
Hmmm. Anyone have any recommendations for her?

Whew. Hope I covered everything, but I'm sure I missed a few here &
there...

Heidi, recovering




From heidit at netbox.com  Mon Jan 13 12:34:15 2003
From: heidit at netbox.com (heiditandy)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 07:34:15 -0500
Subject: Jane Eyre
Message-ID: <019a01c2bb00$3e9f5a20$0301a8c0@Frodo>

> ER: 

> > Yeah, you're right there. Goblin Revolutions must be about as 

> > interesting as the Corn Laws, especially at age 14 or so. A little 

> > like being made to read Jane Eyre at that age too! And this just 

> > reminds of something I thought of once (sad or what) - do the 

> > Hogwarts' pupils have English or Maths lessons? Or are they just 

> > expect to write literate yard-long essays without any teaching on 

> the 

> > subject of grammar and wotnot?

> 

> ME: 

> What are Corn Laws?

> Urgh... next semester one of the things we're supposed to read *is* 

> Jane Eyre. I've avoided that book my whole life as if I were roaming 

> around after lights out trying not to run into Mrs. Norris ^-^.

 

ER - I read Jane Eyre at 11 and I loved it. Perhaps if I hadn't been
exposed to it for another three years, I wouldn't've. But the story is
truly wonderful - it's probably, historically, along with Wuthuring
Heights (which I don't much enjoy) the first gothic romance. 

Meira - If you have to read Jane Eyre, as soon as you're done, read
Jasper Fforde's The Eyre Affair (right, B?) for a completely different
take on the book, and the concept of fanfiction. It's a brilliant
revision of the story, in a very meta way, which captures a lot of
what's fascinating about the longstanding British obsession with books.
Fforde is a wonder!



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From heidit at netbox.com  Mon Jan 13 12:39:44 2003
From: heidit at netbox.com (heiditandy)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 07:39:44 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] CoS Trivia Game
In-Reply-To: <F175niNXZ2gLqhmQDfL000094e1@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <01b801c2bb00$d9f60b90$0301a8c0@Frodo>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Wendy St. John [mailto:HebrideanBlack2002 at hotmail.com] 
> 
> Is there a Harry Potter Trivia Game for Chamber of Secrets? 
There is - you can find it on Amazon in the toys r us section and they
do ship to the UK if you can't find it there (although you could always
check at amazon.co.uk!) - I have it but it's unopened, as I'm going to
inaugurate it at Nimbus - 2003!

heidi




From sushi at societyhappens.com  Mon Jan 13 12:55:59 2003
From: sushi at societyhappens.com (Sushi)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 06:55:59 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] CoS Trivia Game
In-Reply-To: <F175niNXZ2gLqhmQDfL000094e1@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030113064406.02610390@mail.societyhappens.com>


>Is there a Harry Potter Trivia Game for Chamber of Secrets?

         I know they're available in the US.  Wal-Mart (The Home of 3am 
Happiness) and Toys R Us have them, and you could probably get one through 
the TRU website.


>Wendy
>(Who was totally *crushed* when, playing the first game, she gave a wrong
>answer to the question: what is the text for first-year Potions class? I
>said, "Magical Draughts and Potions by Arsenius Jigger," and the answer was
>the Phyllida Spore book about Magical Herbs and Fungi. Technically, I was
>also right, as they are *both* first-year texts. But my husband wouldn't
>give it to me, as the card was asking for the Spore text. <grumble, grumble>
>I think I whooped his b*tt anyway! <VEG>).


         Oh, god, tell me about it. :(  Every single freaking year, my 
family holds Thanksgiving and Christmas Trivial Pursuit marathons, women 
vs. men.  Two years ago, when I'd had an hour of sleep the night before 
Christmas Eve (when the X-mas round begins) and had drunk most of a bottle 
of Boone's Farm in the space of about an hour (it is being strong for a 
house-Sushi), a question came up: "What book, featuring a teenaged wizard, 
broke all previous sales records when it was released in 2000?"

         I said Chamber of Secrets.

         They've never let me live it down.


>P.S. I'm hoping I'm correct that Sushi is a "she" - if not, please let me
>know, and accept my apology for misinterpreting your gender!

         Unless my birth certificate, marriage license, and medical files 
are all horrendously, horrendously wrong, I'm a she. :)  Don't always act 
like it, but I am.  ("Oh, honey?  While we're out, can we stop by a 
hardware store?  I want to check the price on a drill press.")

Sushi, who will someday get her drill press, and proceed to modify it into 
something more closely related to Frankenstein's monster


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From HebrideanBlack2002 at hotmail.com  Mon Jan 13 12:59:36 2003
From: HebrideanBlack2002 at hotmail.com (Wendy St. John)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 12:59:36 +0000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Jane Eyre & Pride and Prejudice
Message-ID: <F11TD2bX8e0IYGfE7Ig00015a0e@hotmail.com>

Heidi wrote:

"If you have to read Jane Eyre, as soon as you're done, read
Jasper Fforde's The Eyre Affair (right, B?) for a completely different
>take on the book, and the concept of fanfiction. It's a brilliant
>revision of the story, in a very meta way, which captures a lot of
>what's fascinating about the longstanding British obsession with books.
>Fforde is a wonder!"

Now me:

Another example of something like this is "The New Illustrated Darcy's 
Story," by Jane Aylmer, which is Jane Austen's "Pride and Prejudice" from 
Darcy's POV. I really enjoyed it, being a big P&P fan. In this case, the 
book is really just a big work of fanfiction taken to it's limit.

I've not read Jane Eyre, but when I do, I'll make sure to read the Eyre 
Affair, as well. Thanks for the recommendation!

:-)
Wendy
(Who also did not enjoy "Wuthering Heights," and who disagrees with those 
who see similarities between our beloved Severus and the dastardly and 
insufferable Heathcliff. Although I do love the Kate Bush song the book 
inspired).

_________________________________________________________________
Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online 
http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963




From dianasdolls at yahoo.com  Mon Jan 13 13:21:26 2003
From: dianasdolls at yahoo.com (Diana <dianasdolls@yahoo.com>)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 13:21:26 -0000
Subject: Responses to assaults on my parenting
Message-ID: <avuegm+hg50@eGroups.com>

Here is my the part of my post all of you are responded to 
originally. I suggest you read it again and, this time, with the 
footnotes I obviously should have provided for you to understand 
what I was trying to say.

I had written:
My son is nine and he does not know what the term slash when applied 
to fiction means. I have not had the opportunity or desire to 
explain it just yet. He does know about heterosexual sex and 
homosexuality, but not every explicit detail - there's no need for 
that until he needs more information and asks for it, then I'll 
answer his questions.[1] He does not need to find a fanfic site and 
read all these synopses. The ones he doesn't understand would 
puzzle him and the ones he does understand would considerably 
confuse him.[2] I don't think stumbling upon a slash fanfic, a non-
graphic one, would make him gay or mess him up for life - that's 
silly. However, I don't want to get into a bunch of topics and 
explanations he's not ready yet to comprehend for many, many reasons.
[3]

I've added the footnotes and my response below.


Here's the responses:
Barb wrote:
> On Fiction Alley, we have a question that pops up on the screen 
when any user clicks on an R-rated fic, asking whether the reader is 
over the age of seventeen.  If the reader answers the question 
honestly, there should be no problem.  The question is there for a 
reason.  I believe that adequate precautions have been taken against 
children seeing material they probably would not be allowed to view 
in a movie theatre without their parents actually taking them; if 
you are not supervising your child's internet use, that is a 
decision that you might need to reexamine, but that is an issue 
quite apart from the precautions that have been taken at Fiction 
Alley and whether a given child is being honest in answering a 
question about age.<<  

John jumps on the wagon
>>Frankly, children shouldn't be running around on the internet 
unsupervised.It is not the responsibility of anybody but a child's 
parent or guardian to monitor their child's internet usage. If a 
twelve or thirteen year old child, despite the R ratings (for 
language, not sex) and lies, clicking through parental 
acknowledgements on FA, and manages to read my Keeper's Secrets, 
it's not my problem.  But surely, as a responsible parent, you 
monitor your nine year old's internet usage, and thus the point 
about children being disturbed by material, of whatever nature, is 
rather moot?<<

bboy_mn jumps on the same wagon with both feet:
>>If the problem is your kids reading my stories, then the problem is
YOU. If your kids are reading racist literature then the problem is
YOU. If you kids are read about bomb making then the problem is YOU.
It's not my job to supervise your kids. I can't come to your house 
and shut off the computer. So if you have a problem with all this, 
then you need to stop being a buddy, and start being a parent. Sorry 
but that's how freedom works. Freedom is NOT safe, freedom is NOT 
easy, but freedom is free.<<


FOOTNOTES: [1] Why would I voluntarily tell my son everything I know 
about sex before he's ready to hear it?  Overloading kids with info 
they are not ready for is not the way to explain sexual feelings and 
intercourse to a child.  [2] My son represents the 'everychild' who 
isn't being watched over by a parent.  The majority of parents are 
just not ready to explain to their child how gay sex 'works' exactly 
in context with his favorite fictional HP characters.  I don't 
explain hetero sex in fantastic detail, either.  And I would not 
enjoy explaining foot fetishes or downright perversions such as 
necrophilia, for that matter.  [3]  In my son's case, I wouldn't 
worry about him being traumatized for life by reading a slash fanfic 
or NC-17 porn-fest by accident, but I would worry about him losing 
the image of HP he currently enjoys and that we share talking about 
together.  Other kids may get negative ideas and reinforcement of 
free-floating stereotypes about gay people or hetero people that 
take much work to undo by their parents.  
 
Now me:
I don't know if any of you have children, but I should tell you 
right up front that insulting a mother by telling her she must be a 
bad parent who lets her kids run rampant on the internet reading 
whatever they want is *extremely* loaded and offensive.  If John 
thinks terms such as 'normal' and 'homosexual' are offensive to gay 
people, he's only hit the tip of the iceberg of offensiveness when 
insulting someone's parenting skills in such an offhanded manner; 
even more so when all these downright rude accusations and 
inferences come from misreading my original post and filling in gaps 
with their own conjectures.

I'm going to try to give all of you the benefit of the doubt, but as 
I'm very offended right now, I'm trying as hard as I can to be civil 
and clear in my responses. 
 
I started this thread by saying that I don't read slash pairings and 
didn't get their appeal.  I have *never* once said that anyone who 
writes or reads slash fanfic based on the HP characters is evil, 
deranged, or anything even remotely like that. [With the notable 
exception of my wondering about the specific person who wrote a 
Lucius/Draco sexual pairing stated for the record.]  I do not think 
ill of people who read and write slash fiction, whether gay, hetero, 
bi or alien hybrid.  I even said that I wholeheartedly support the 
fans of slash to read it, write it, wallpaper their walls with it, 
whatever, but that I would not be reading it myself because I like 
the HP characters as based in my visions from reading and re-reading 
all four HP books four or five times.  IMPORTANT NOTE: I am talking 
specifically about fanfic regarding the Potterverse characters when 
referring to my desire to not read slash fanfics or fanfics with a 
bunch of sex in them. 
 
Don't any of you have friends who are into hobbies that you find 
strange, boring or maybe even bizarre?  And when that friends talks 
about his hobby to you, after a while, you just shake your head, 
smile and say, "As long as you're having fun.  I don't get it, 
myself, but whatever."  That is how I feel about slash fiction.  I 
can't see the appeal, but if it's your thing, go to town.  

My son does *not* wander the internet unsupervised and he has never 
visited a fanfic site in his life.  To use bboy_mn's condescending 
and un-needed advice, I'm not my son's 'buddy', I'm his mom.  

The point of my first post was that, unlike my son, many children do 
not have a parent watching over them to see what they are surfing on 
the internet.  I represented my son as an 'everychild' who could 
find a fanfic site and end up with an unwantedly changed vision of 
the HP characters.  Don't children have the right to maintain their 
own vision of the HP characters from reading the books without 
interference from fanfics that bring in ideas they may not 
understand, want or even be able to handle yet?  The problem we are 
going to have with coming to an agreement on this is that I feel 
that several fanfic writers and defenders feel it's okay to muddle 
with others' personalized and internal images of the HP characters, 
even children's views of the characters, because it will 
cause "growth", "acceptance", "tolerance" and "understanding".  
That's a load of horse manure.  Children don't suddenly gain blazing 
insight into acceptance of other's differences because of reading a 
fanfic posted on some website.  Acceptance and understanding of 
others' differences and being taught exactly what that means come 
from the efforts of the parents and how the parents treat others 
different from themselves on a daily, monthly, yearly basis.  It is 
on ongoing process done through example set by the parents.  

I would not like to see unsupervised children stumble upon a slashy 
or sex-filled [whether gay or hetero] fanfic of their favorite 
fictional characters because the fanfic site was poorly organized, 
incompletely or inaccurately labelled or as easy to get past as 
lying to an onscreen question.  If my son is any example, when he's 
logging on to some favorite children's sites or playing a computer 
game, a screen will sometimes pop-up that asks him if he wants to go 
to go to site b or if he wants to type in his name and he will have 
to punch a button that says "YES" on it to get to the games.  I've 
seen these sites and games and they are set up exactly the same way 
as the "no one under 18 warning screen" described on this board that 
simply asks if the kid is over 18; just press the yes button to 
continue, in other words.  It has now become automatic for my son to 
hurriedly press yes to continue on to his game.  He stopped actually 
reading those screens a long time ago.  I have no doubt that many 
kids are the same and would just click right through that screen 
without thinking about it or reading it.

Ideally every child should have a warm, comforting parent to stand 
over their shoulder to kindly explain every screen, but this is not 
going to happen as we live in the real world of latch-key kids, 
single parents, neglected kids and distracted and overworked 
parents. Even in the ideal household this is impossible on a minute-
by-minute basis.  The truth is parents can't watch their kids every 
single minute.  If we could, there would be no child abductions, 
child sexual abuse or accidental deaths.   
My suggestion was to just sort the stories into gay and het then 
sort further by pairings and then by explicitness.  Or do it in 
reverse - whatever works.  Do the sorting *before* placing blurbs 
about the stories on the main page free for kids [and adults] to 
read before the newbie has one clue about the layout of the site or 
what any of the slashes or ratings mean.  I *never* once suggested 
placing bright blaring labels on fanfics like "gay sex! run and 
hide!", "NC-17 het sex! enjoy!" or anything even remotely so biased 
on any of the fictions.  I also suggested to make the category 
placement, pairings listings and rating not author voluntary, maybe 
even have it done by another party.  While many responsible authors 
will do a good job of categorizing their work appropriately, many do 
not.  Some even feel, as I mentioned above, they are doing 
any "bigoted, gay-bashing, prudes" who accidentally stumbles across 
their fanfic a favor by opening up their "little close-minded 
worlds."  This is very wrong because their assumptions are based on 
their own predjudices against others and only harms acceptance and 
understanding of others' differences, not create it. 
 
I wouldn't want to live in a facist, "1984" society where everything 
is geared toward being fit for children to read.  I don't believe in 
censorship in general, but know that it is necessary to protect kids 
from harmful images and ideas.  I do believe in making it more 
difficult for children to access things that are not appropriate for 
them.  I do believe in guidelines and laws that allow children 
freedom from being bombarded with unsavory images, whether porn, 
graphic autopsy photos or anything that children aren't ready for or 
just shouldn't see.  And what children aren't ready to see *will*, 
by necessity, be decided by their responsible parent or guardian.  
No responsible, sane parent, regardless of their personal sexual 
orientation, would go surfing gay or het porn sites with their nine-
year-old sitting on their lap.  The truth is that some parents will 
not want their children to be exposed to gay pairings, regardless if 
actual intercourse is or is not described, between characters the 
children and the adults have grown to love in a image that doesn't 
fit that scenario.  That doesn't make the parents homophobes.  They 
are just filtering what their children read to fit their individual 
tastes and what they feel is in the best interest of their 
children.  Parents raise children up with beliefs and values like 
their own.  As a parent, I can and will raise my children to accept 
and understand that people are different and that they're are people 
of different color, sexual orientation, background, mental capacity 
and physical ability, but all people are basically the same at the 
heart, with feelings and ideas of their own.   

bboy_mn wrote:
So back to the question/comment that started all this, I can see why
some people don't 'get it'. But, personally, I don't get what the
fastination is with 'Buffy'. Dead boring if you ask me. Solution - I
don't read Buffy stories. You don't like Slash, you don't 'get it';
solution - don't read it. 

Now me:  
I find it ironic that you wrote that paragraph above and then 
proceeded to take me to task for expressing exactly the same thing 
in my original post and then for attempting to expand upon in a 
later post.  This chatter list has been the place of discussion for 
strange pairings of every sort, which prompted my original post.  I 
have stated more than once that I will not be reading any HP-based 
slash fanfic, so you can spare me the admonishments to not read it.  
I *never* said that I felt commanded, pressured, forced or lured 
into reading it.  The fact I still don't understand it's appeal 
hasn't changed.  Yet, I'm called a homophobe by others simply 
because I have no desire to read slash fiction based on HP 
characters.  

It's okay for you to bash "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" and say how 
dull and stupid it is, but it's okay if I want to read it, of 
course, but don't expect you to read that stuff...  To quote you, If 
you don't get it, fine don't read it.  But then a few paragraphs 
later you resort to calling me a bad parent just because I have to 
audacity to suggest that some fanfic sites and fanfic authors have 
failed to implement a way of easily and unbiasedly organizing 
fanfics so the stories I don't want to read aren't in my face upon 
my very first visit to the site.  I went to a fanfic site to see how 
the organization was since so many responses to my original post 
went out of their way to tell me that there was no way I 
could "stumble" upon stuff I didn't want to read and everything was 
so properly labelled and clear that I must be an idiot if I did end 
up reading something that tainted my personal image of the HP 
characters.  
The main page had a bunch of blurbs for new fics in no particular 
grouping or in any way sorted.  So, I just lightly browsed down the 
list of fics.  With me, whole sentences jump out at me, not just 
words.  I read sentences like I read individual words, which 
probably explains why all my posts are so long.  :D

What I actually found was blurbs written in such a way as to be 
quite memorable [so you'd want to read the story, obviously] and 
they were able to bring forth instantaneous unwelcome images.  Have 
any of you remembered song fragments or movie quotes and taglines 
for years after the song has stopped playing on the radio and the 
movie has been pushed way back on the rental shelves?  Of course you 
have because those phrases were memorable to you.  Poetry and prose, 
even bad ones, can bring forth images in your mind with only a few 
lines.  Once images are formed they can a bit upsetting.  I'm a 
grown up and I can eliminate the images I don't want - yippee for 
me, but weeding my mind of unwelcome images isn't how I like to 
spend my time.  In the case of strong images, it's more of a 
supression than a permanent weeding.  I won't go crying in my tea 
about it, but it did annoy me enough to dare to suggest a better 
sorting system.  Please keep in mind that children may not be able 
to weed out unwanted images easily, and most children have even 
better imaginations than adults.  

Well, that's enough for this novel.  I'll respond more in other 
posts.

Diana








From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Mon Jan 13 14:19:59 2003
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David <dfrankiswork@netscape.net>)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 14:19:59 -0000
Subject: Preference versus prediction (was Couplethinking)
In-Reply-To: <avp0ko+flb3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <avuhuf+tu5c@eGroups.com>

I wrote, massively deploying angle brackets for destraction:
 
> > > > There's also the tricky question of what you think is 'true' 
> > > > or will happen versus what you want to be true - not that 
I've 
> > > > come across anyone with beliefs that strongly contradict 
their 
> > > > references (e.g. "I think canon is firmly R/H but I feel 
Harry 
> > > > is the right person for Hermione").

Elkins wasn't fooled and asked:

> > > Do you mean just when it comes to shipping, David? Or to 
> > > speculations in general? 

The supply of angle brackets running low, I managed:

> > I meant primarily shipping, and then other issues that seem to 
> > animate the fandom generally, such as redeemable Draco. 

Elkins still had some shots in her locker:

> Redeemable Draco?  Really?
> 
> That's odd, because Draco seems to me to be one of the subjects
> on which people *most* frequently cite the discrepancy between 
> how they read the character and how they suspect that JKR actually
> intended them to be reading him.  I've always thought redeemable
> Draco one of the topics about which that discrepancy is the most
> often cited, actually.

OK, I'm out of ammo, so now is the time to withdraw gracefully.  
Dozens of main list posts say Elkins is a more attentive reader than 
I am, so I'm sure the above is true.  I just can't remember it, and 
have to confess I don't know which way round she means.  Who thinks 
Draco is an abominable little tick who deserves the Dementor's Kiss 
but just knows that softie JKR is going to have him throw himself in 
front of the AK intended for Harry?  Who feels Draco is really a 
complex misunderstood and tortured soul who will never be allowed to 
do more than lose Quidditch matches and fail to get the last taunt?

> I've also seen a number of rather pessimistic statements from
> H/H shippers.

Yes to be fair, in my >>>> quote above, I had forgotten that Ebony 
says something similar to what I wrote.

> And of course, I myself desperately dislike
> LOLLIPOPS, while still finding it exceptionally canonically
> plausible.

Now, I do think most LOLLIPOPS sailors like their ship.  Personally, 
I never thought it very plausible, and once Elkins suggested the 
*Pettigrew/Lily* possibility LOLLIPOPS took a hit below the 
waterline as far as my own estimation was concerned.  I mean, how 
*many* life-courses are going to be reversed by desire for her?

> And I think that Snape's task really *is* likely to turn out to
> be the most boring and obvious one of going back to Voldemort, 
> you know -- in spite of the fact that, as all obsessed fans know, 
> this would really be a very foolish and nonsensical and 
unsatisfying 
> thing for it to turn out to be.  ;-)

Well, that's the thing - it seems to me that most fans simply take 
it for granted that that's how it will be, and a minority find it 
unsatisfying, as well as something so obviously signalled that it 
must be a red herring.

David, pursuing his latest ulterior agenda of blurring the 
distinction between on-topic and off-topic

Oh, and BTW, read about LOLLIPOPS in 
www.hpfgu.org.uk/hypotheticalley
if you don't know what it is




From urbana at charter.net  Mon Jan 13 14:35:51 2003
From: urbana at charter.net (Anne <urbana@charter.net>)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 14:35:51 -0000
Subject: LOLLIPOPS (was Preference vs. Predicition)
In-Reply-To: <avuhuf+tu5c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <avuis7+ooq0@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "David <dfrankiswork at n...>" 
<dfrankiswork at n...> wrote:
> Oh, and BTW, read about LOLLIPOPS in 
> www.hpfgu.org.uk/hypotheticalley
> if you don't know what it is

Oh noooo.... I feel another filk idea coming on <puts back of hand to 
forehead>... take it away, Lily:

I'm Sev's LOLLIPOP
I make his heart go giddyyp

(etc. etc. to the tune of My Boy Lollipop, a 60s girl-group song)

Anne U
(wondering if anyone has compiled the various filks into operettas by 
HP book?)




From simon.hp at virgin.net  Mon Jan 13 14:44:32 2003
From: simon.hp at virgin.net (Simon Branford <simon.hp@virgin.net>)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 14:44:32 -0000
Subject: FILKS (was Re: LOLLIPOPS (was Preference vs. Predicition))
In-Reply-To: <avuis7+ooq0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <avujcg+g9c6@eGroups.com>

--- Anne wrote:
> (wondering if anyone has compiled the various filks into operettas 
> by HP book?)

There is Caius' site Harry Potter Filks 
(http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm) that features many of the 
filks posted to HPfGU over the years. The filks are orgainsed into 
groups, based on the books or by characters and places.


Simon




From annemehr at yahoo.com  Mon Jan 13 15:39:54 2003
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr <annemehr@yahoo.com>)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 15:39:54 -0000
Subject: "Mudblood"
In-Reply-To: <140.7a5ae7d.2b536c74@aol.com>
Message-ID: <avumka+nsot@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Audra1976 at a... wrote:
> In a message dated 12/01/2003 19:13:03 Eastern Standard Time, 
> HebrideanBlack2002 at h... writes:
> 
> > I have noticed people using the term "mudblood" to refer to 
muggle-born 
> > students. 
> <snip>
> Am I just taking this waaaaay too seriously? 
> > <G>
> 
> Me:
> Wendy, 
> Stop reading your HPfGU mail.  Hide your books and toys.  Take the 
audio 
> books and soundtrack out of your stereo, and ground yourself from 
Harry 
> Potter for a couple days.  LOL!  Yes, you *are* taking it far to 
seriously, 
> IMO.  
> 
<snip>

> You're blurring the line between fiction and reality.  The word 
"Mudblood" 
> means nothing to us in reality.

You know, I am going to join the ranks of those who think it's better 
to use "muggle-born" instead of "mudblood."

Why? Not because there are any actual Muggle-borns to offend, but 
because in HPfGU we delve into the Potterverse *as if* it were real.  
We use up great amounts of bandwidth and megabytes of memory 
discussing how many students Hogwarts has, *why* Snape hates James so 
much, who the *heck* is Avery, as if they were extremely important 
(and they certainly are! <g>).  If we are so into this universe, why 
would we want to call people like our beloved Hermione by a very 
nasty (within this universe) name?  Besides, if we keep using 
"mudblood" in all our discussions of muggle-borns, it may well become 
like a neutral word to us, so that when we read it in JKR's text it 
will cease to be as shocking as it is meant to be -- we will have lost 
part of the nuance of the story.

Not the biggest deal in the world, I suppose, but still...

Annemehr
who had also been a bit bothered by the use of "mudblood" on the main 
list...




From annemehr at yahoo.com  Mon Jan 13 16:41:54 2003
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr <annemehr@yahoo.com>)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 16:41:54 -0000
Subject: Banned Books (WAS:Re: Loaded words and other gay issues) 
In-Reply-To: <BA47A7E6.5372%john@queerasjohn.com>
Message-ID: <avuq8i+e8al@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Queer as John <john at q...> 
wrote:

<really huge snip>
 
> What I immediately think of by "slated" and "hammered" is the 
American
> Library Association's "Most Frequently Challenged Books" list ? you 
know,
> the one where the ALA tallies the books which are most frequently 
asked to
> be removed from libraries? Guess what's at the top of that one?
> 
> Yes, that's right. Harry Potter, beating out "Daddy's Roommate" and 
"Heather
> Has Two Mommies", numbers 2 and 11 of the 1990-2000 Most Frequently
> Challenged Books List.
> 
> http://www.ala.org/bbooks/challeng.html#mfcb
> 
> Nimbus Plug! Judith Krug, Director of the ALA's Office for 
Intellectual
> Freedom, will be speaking at Nimbus - 2003 in Florida this July.
> http://www.hp2003.org.
> 

Actually, I don't think we can be sure just what this statistic means 
on the face of it.  I believe there is a *very* good chance that 
libraries receive many more requests to ban Harry Potter simply 
because many more libraries *have* Harry Potter.  At least in my 
experience when a few years back, I checked my local library for 
"Heather" because I had heard about some of the uproar over it and was 
curious -- but the library did not have it at all.

If you really wanted to compare the relative amounts of objection to 
the three books that you mentioned, you would have to limit your 
statistics to libraries that had all three of the books, and see how 
many banning request each one got.

And of course, I have just seen an objection to my own preceeding 
paragraph.  There may well be many people who *would* ask to ban 
"Heather" and "Daddy's Roommate", but didn't because they hadn't heard 
of them.  I think a lot more people have heard of Harry Potter.

To sum up, Harry Potter *may* be first on the banned books requests 
not because it is more intensely hated, but merely because it is more 
ubiquitous than the others. 

Statistics can lie like a rug.

<another really huge snip>
 

> "gay" should be used only as an adjective. "Gay" as a noun - "gays 
gathered
> for a demonstration" - is not acceptable."
> 

This is *completely* new to me.  I'll take it to heart.  BTW, you seem 
to allow for the use of "lesbian" as a noun, am I correct?

Annemehr





From ken.kuller at veritas.com  Mon Jan 13 17:02:15 2003
From: ken.kuller at veritas.com (Kenneth M. Kuller <ken.kuller@veritas.com>)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 17:02:15 -0000
Subject: Where in the World is HOGWARTS?
In-Reply-To: <avqpd3+gd9f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <avuren+leal@eGroups.com>

The map of Wizarding Brittain, 
http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/atlas-b-britain.html , in the 
Harry Potter Lexicon, http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/ indicates 
a position in the vicinity of sites 3 and 4.

Key clues to support Hogwarts castle being located in this general 
area are as follows:
* It is is eight to nine hours north of London by train.
* You cannot go more than five hours by train from London 
? in a consistant direction without going into Scotland.
* Haggis was served at Nearly Headless Nick's Deathday Party;
  that is a Scottish dish made of calf or sheep offal.
  http://www.smart.net/~tak/haggis.html#T1
* The latitude and longitude & sunset times on Sept 1 and on 
  June 6 (big events in PoA) also place Hogwarts castle in 
? Scotland, a bit north of Edinburgh.
* The Hogwarts Express tour went to Edinburgh, and then on to 
? Perth. It did not go as far as Aberdeen.

Thank you, Steve!  Your detective work of identifying secluded areas, 
near rivers and lakes, with both nearby roads and rail lines, is 
commendable.  That these guesses are supported by other facts is all 
the more impressive.


--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Steve <bboy_mn at y...>" 
<bboy_mn at y...> wrote:
> Sadly I have more time than money, so with this great wealth of 
time,
> and the fact that I have no life, I have found out (or so I say) 
where
> Hogwarts is. (One of four places.)
> 
> To see the satellite images of the FOUR possible locations, go to 
this
> link. (personal site, non-commerial)
> 
> http://www.homestead.com/BlueMoonMarket/Files/Hogwarts/hogwarts1.htm
> 
> [Alternative]
> 
> http://BlueMoonMarket.homestead.com/Files/Hogwarts/hogwarts1.htm
> 
> I was going to post the images here but they are about 100k each, 
and
> I didn't know if that would be OK.
>  
> 
> bboy_mn




From john at queerasjohn.com  Mon Jan 13 17:28:40 2003
From: john at queerasjohn.com (Queer as John)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 17:28:40 +0000
Subject: Responses to [perceived] assaults on [Diana's] parenting
In-Reply-To: <avuegm+hg50@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <BA48A7C8.5481%john@queerasjohn.com>

Diana <dianasdolls at yahoo.com> said:

> The majority of parents are just not ready to explain to their child how gay
> sex 'works' exactly in context with his favorite fictional HP characters.

I am becoming increasingly frustrated with your continual, unceasing
equations of the appearance of gay characters with sex, sex, sex, because
that belittles gay people. The stereotype of gay people as rampant
nymphomaniacs is as ludicrous and demeaning as the stereotype of black
people as criminals. Please stop perpetuating it.

> Why would I voluntarily tell my son everything I know about sex before he's
> ready to hear it?  Overloading kids with info they are not ready for is not
> the way to explain sexual feelings and intercourse to a child.

Oh, honestly, nobody's suggesting that. And your use of "overloading"
perpetuates a commonly-held Anglo-American perception that children are
ignorant. Studies show that in countries where love, sexual feelings and
intercourse are explained by various degrees at an age-appropriate level
without acute societal embarrassment, children make more stable, rational
and informed decisions about their own lives and sex lives.

And, honestly, it's not *hard* to explain love to a kid. As an educator, I
have to do so frequently. To a kid from a two-parent home, I would say "You
know how mummy and daddy love each other? Well, those two men love each
other the same way." Obviously, to a kid whose parents are not living
together, I would adapt the reference to one of a common societal reference
point: "You know how Shrek and Princess Fiona love each other?"

[aside: Y'know, I really think that movie theaters ought to let educators in
for free. It's SO helpful to be able to use common reference points like
that.]

> [2] My son represents the 'everychild' who isn't being watched over by a
> parent. 

Yet, despite attempting to distance yourself from 'everychild', you
nonetheless take offence at others commenting on the fact that this
'everychild''s situation is *not* a recommended one:

> I don't know if any of you have children, but I should tell you
> right up front that insulting a mother by telling her she must be a
> bad parent who lets her kids run rampant on the internet reading
> whatever they want is *extremely* loaded and offensive.

Barb wrote, using language which implies that you *are* supervising your
child:

> if you are not supervising your child's internet use, that is a decision that
> you might need to reexamine

and I wrote, using language which again, implies your responsible parenting:

> But surely, as a responsible parent, you monitor your nine year old's internet
> usage, and thus the point about children being disturbed by material, of
> whatever nature, is rather moot?

You wrote:

> The majority of parents are just not ready to explain to their child how gay
> sex 'works' exactly in context with his favorite fictional HP characters.

See above. Once again, you equate gay people with sex, sex, sex. The
majority of parents *should* be ready to explain to their child how love
works. A loves B like C loves D. Simple. Even the Kinsey study shows that
50% of males experience homosexual attraction in their lives. 10% show
exclusively homosexual attraction.

Consider ten kids you know. Statistically, at least of those kids is gay.
Five of them will have homosexually oriented attraction.

Wouldn't you as a parent want to make sure your child knows that if he is
one of those kids, you will love him unconditionally? I certainly would. And
I certainly wish that my parents had assured me of that love before I came
out to them last year, though they did so afterwards ? it would have made
the whole process a lot less stressful.

If you're interested, check out PFLAG.org, the Parents, Families and Friends
of Lesbians And Gays. The Unitarian Universalist church also has some useful
suggestions at UU.org.

> In my son's case <snip> I would worry about him losing the image of HP he
> currently enjoys and that we share talking about together.

By the words you use, you imply that you *value* the lack of gay characters
in HP, and that your HP experience would be denigrated by their inclusion.

There are no words to express how strongly I reject that value.

> Other kids may get negative ideas and reinforcement of
> free-floating stereotypes about gay people or hetero people that
> take much work to undo by their parents.

By the words you use, you imply that you believe that slash fanfiction
conveys negative ideas of people. In particular you imply that you believe
that slash fanfiction conveys negative ideas of non-gay people. I find this
amusing, because you state that you are not a slash reader.

As someone who's actually *read* slash, I disagree utterly.

> I don't know if any of you have children, but I should tell you
> right up front that insulting a mother by telling her she must be a
> bad parent who lets her kids run rampant on the internet reading
> whatever they want is *extremely* loaded and offensive. If John
> thinks terms such as 'normal' and 'homosexual' are offensive to gay
> people, he's only hit the tip of the iceberg of offensiveness when
> insulting someone's parenting skills in such an offhanded manner;
> even more so when all these downright rude accusations and
> inferences come from misreading my original post and filling in gaps
> with their own conjectures.

The impression formed by others of your views is based on the language you
use and cultural reference points of you and others. If you wish to be
perceived differently, use different language or attempt to understand
others' cultural reference points.

> I'm going to try to give all of you the benefit of the doubt, but as
> I'm very offended right now, I'm trying as hard as I can to be civil
> and clear in my responses.
> 
> I started this thread by saying that I don't read slash pairings and
> didn't get their appeal.

The words you use also made me perceive that you equated the appearance of
gay people with sex. I ? and others ? found this offensive.

Moreover, the replies pointed out that without explaining the rationale
behind your views, your views appear to be an irrational dislike of slash:
homophobia.

> I have *never* once said that anyone who writes or reads slash fanfic based on
> the HP characters is evil, deranged, or anything even remotely like that.
> <snip>  I do not think ill of people who read and write slash fiction, whether
> gay, hetero, bi or alien hybrid.  I even said that I wholeheartedly support
> the fans of slash to read it, write it, wallpaper their walls with it,
> whatever, but that I would not be reading it myself because I like the HP
> characters as based in my visions from reading and re-reading all four HP
> books four or five times.

Your words remind me of the argument that many people in the gay community
hear all the time: "I don't hate gays, but I WISH they wouldn't keep rubbing
my nose in it/being so *blatant*/kiss in *public*!". Non-gay people display
their love all the time: in movies, on the street, in books. Why shouldn't
gay people?

Your words once again make me think that you value a lack of gay people in
the HP world. I object to that thought.

> Don't any of you have friends who are into hobbies that you find
> strange, boring or maybe even bizarre?  And when that friends talks
> about his hobby to you, after a while, you just shake your head,
> smile and say, "As long as you're having fun.  I don't get it,
> myself, but whatever."  That is how I feel about slash fiction.  I
> can't see the appeal, but if it's your thing, go to town.

Your comparison of hobbies with a sexual orientation is as offensive to me
as it is ludicrous. Diana, nobody ever killed a Trekkie for being a Trekkie.
I cannot recall an instance in which a model railroader ever murdered a
war-gamer. 

People do kill people for being gay. THAT is why homophobic attitudes and
comments are not acceptable. THAT is why there are so many people in this
forum leaping up in defence of slash as a representation of gay issues. THAT
is why I take offense.

> My son does *not* wander the internet unsupervised and he has never
> visited a fanfic site in his life.

So...what's the big problem? Why take offense from Barb's and my comments
when we *specifically* assumed that you did *not* let your son do those
things?

> The point of my first post was that, unlike my son, many children do
> not have a parent watching over them to see what they are surfing on
> the internet.  I represented my son as an 'everychild' who could
> find a fanfic site and end up with an unwantedly changed vision of
> the HP characters.  Don't children have the right to maintain their
> own vision of the HP characters from reading the books without
> interference from fanfics that bring in ideas they may not
> understand, want or even be able to handle yet?

Of course they do. But children also have the right to *develop* their own
vision of the HP characters from reading the books *and input* from fanfics,
discussion groups and other sources that bring in ideas they are able to
understand. 

> The problem we are going to have with coming to an agreement on this is that I
> feel that several fanfic writers and defenders feel it's okay to muddle with
> others' personalized and internal images of the HP characters, even children's
> views of the characters, because it will cause "growth", "acceptance",
> "tolerance" and "understanding".

Yes! I do think that! I think that posing questions about the nature of
love, or the nature of war, or the nature of interpersonal relationships,
WILL cause all four of those things! That's what fanfiction ? and book
discussion ? is about! It's taking situations and characters about whom we
have preconceived notions and examining those preconceptions in the light of
differently-interpreted information. Information about characters and the
wizarding world from others' cultural and personal perspectives, whether
those perspectives are from an African-American woman (Ebony's narrator,
Angelina, in Trouble in Paradise), a gay man (my Oliver and Percy in
Keeper's Secrets), a Jane Austen fan (Heidi's Homage), a Buffy fan (Keith
Fraser's howlingly funny Ginny the Vampire Slayer).

Reading Ebony's work and interacting with her on a fandom level HAS caused
me to grow as a person. It has increased my understanding of
African-American issues. It has reinforced my acceptance and tolerance of
people who are physically different from me. I am immensely grateful to
whatever fates or deities conspired to have our paths cross.

> That's a load of horse manure.  Children don't suddenly gain blazing
> insight into acceptance of other's differences because of reading a
> fanfic posted on some website.

No, but they might be forced to *think* about these issues, and make
decisions for themselves. To consider the parallels between racism and
homophobia.

> I would not like to see unsupervised children stumble upon a slashy
> or sex-filled [whether gay or hetero] fanfic of their favorite
> fictional characters because the fanfic site was poorly organized,
> incompletely or inaccurately labelled or as easy to get past as
> lying to an onscreen question.

By the words you use, you imply that you would not like to see unsupervised
children read, or talk about, any gay people, even in G-rated situations.

I object to that in the strongest possible terms. Why should children always
be supervised when reading, talking or thinking about people of a different
sexual orientation ? or skin color, to draw a parallel?

> If my son is any example, when he's logging on to some favorite children's
> sites or playing a computer game, a screen will sometimes pop-up that asks him
> if he wants to go to go to site b or if he wants to type in his name and he
> will have to punch a button that says "YES" on it to get to the games.  I've
> seen these sites and games and they are set up exactly the same way as the "no
> one under 18 warning screen" described on this board that simply asks if the
> kid is over 18; just press the yes button to continue, in other words.  It has
> now become automatic for my son to hurriedly press yes to continue on to his
> game.  He stopped actually reading those screens a long time ago.  I have no
> doubt that many kids are the same and would just click right through that
> screen without thinking about it or reading it.

So, lying, in violation of a Terms of Use contract that you and/or your son
have undoubtedly agreed to to register with these sites or games, is okay?

> The truth is parents can't watch their kids every single minute.  If we could,
> there would be no child abductions, child sexual abuse or accidental deaths.

I am astounded. Do you not know the statistics that the VAST majority of
child sexual abuse is by an immediate family member who lives with the
child? And that, again, the VAST majority of child abductions are carried
out by one of the child's parents?

> The truth is that some parents will not want their children to be exposed to
> gay pairings, regardless if actual intercourse is or is not described, between
> characters the children and the adults have grown to love in a image that
> doesn't fit that scenario.  That doesn't make the parents homophobes.

Honestly, what other motivations could the parents have than homophobia? So
far, nobody has been able to quote a *rational* explanation for this
theoretical parental dislike. Again, if it is not a rational dislike, it is
an irrational dislike. A phobia. Homophobia.

> I'm called a homophobe by others simply because I have no desire to read slash
> fiction based on HP characters.

I refer to my previous paragraph.

> I went to a fanfic site to see how the organization was since so many
> responses to my original post went out of their way to tell me that there was
> no way I could "stumble" upon stuff I didn't want to read and everything was
> so properly labelled and clear that I must be an idiot if I did end up reading
> something that tainted my personal image of the HP characters.  The main page
> had a bunch of blurbs for new fics in no particular grouping or in any way
> sorted.  

Actually, they are grouped by length and theme. As it says on FA's main
page, Schnoogle (green) is for novel-length fics. Riddikulus (gold) is for
humor. AstronomyTower (red) is for romance. TheDarkArts (blue) is for
everything else, including angst, darkfic, etc.

I know people ? friends of mine in fandom ? who avoid browsing TheDarkArts
for precisely that thematic reason: they don't like darkfic. Same with
AstronomyTower and romance.

> What I actually found was blurbs written in such a way as to be
> quite memorable [so you'd want to read the story, obviously] and
> they were able to bring forth instantaneous unwelcome images.

As both Heidi and Barb have pointed out, FA's "blurbs" are checked for
rating (PG-13). If you are concerned about "unwelcome images", whatever you
define them as, then I suggest that you don't read fanfiction. Simple as
that.

--John

______________________________________

Queer as John || john at queerasjohn.com

AIM, YM & LJ @ QueerAsJohn || www.queerasjohn.com

"There's nowt as queer as folk."  --English proverb
______________________________________




From john at queerasjohn.com  Mon Jan 13 17:28:41 2003
From: john at queerasjohn.com (Queer as John)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 17:28:41 +0000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Banned Books and Lesbians
In-Reply-To: <avuq8i+e8al@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <BA48A7C9.5481%john@queerasjohn.com>

annemehr <annemehr at yahoo.com> said:

> If you really wanted to compare the relative amounts of objection to
> the three books that you mentioned, you would have to limit your
> statistics to libraries that had all three of the books, and see how
> many banning request each one got.

Sorry, I must not have been clear. I wasn't trying to say that Harry was
more hated, and in doing so I didn't explain myself clearly. This all dates
back to a discussion we had AGES ago on-list, back in 2000 or 2001, where
someone compared _Heather_ and _Roomate_ to HP in 'offensiveness' level. I
was musing to myself precisely what you say here:

> And of course, I have just seen an objection to my own preceeding
> paragraph.  There may well be many people who *would* ask to ban
> "Heather" and "Daddy's Roommate", but didn't because they hadn't heard
> of them.  I think a lot more people have heard of Harry Potter.
>
> To sum up, Harry Potter *may* be first on the banned books requests
> not because it is more intensely hated, but merely because it is more
> ubiquitous than the others.

Exactly.

Me:

>> "gay" should be used only as an adjective. "Gay" as a noun - "gays gathered
>> for a demonstration" - is not acceptable."

Annemehr:
 
> This is *completely* new to me.  I'll take it to heart.  BTW, you seem
> to allow for the use of "lesbian" as a noun, am I correct?

Yes. I'm quite prepared to be corrected by a lesbian, but AFAIK and IIRC
"gay men" and "lesbians", "gay people", "he is gay", "a gay man" and "a
lesbian" are fine, but "a gay" (a gay *what* is the question) "gays" and
"the gays" are offensive to some. "She is lesbian" sounds silly and, the
right tone of voice, offensive. Many lesbians prefer the group term "gay men
and lesbians".

I suppose it's the similar problem that I face as a white person when
referring to black people: African-American? Afro-Caribbean? People of
color? Black? black? (lowercase intentional) Brown? I tend to stick with
African-American when referring to black Americans, Afro-Caribbean when
referring to black Brits, and then I keep my antennae out for reactions,
corrections or language used by the other person, adapting mine to suit.s

Personally? This is *really* nitpicky, which is why I didn't bring it up
earlier. I don't use "gays" and I do usually point out that people find it
offensive. However, I find "homosexual" more offensive, simply because it
reduces gay people to sex, sex, sex. Despite the userinfo page on my
LiveJournal. *grin*

--J

______________________________________

Queer as John || john at queerasjohn.com

AIM, YM & LJ @ QueerAsJohn || www.queerasjohn.com

"There's nowt as queer as folk."  --English proverb
______________________________________




From heidit at netbox.com  Mon Jan 13 17:44:56 2003
From: heidit at netbox.com (heiditandy)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 12:44:56 -0500
Subject: New York Times article which has pertinence to the recent discussion about slash
Message-ID: <020101c2bb2b$7db95140$0301a8c0@Frodo>

The article here: http://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/13/opinion/13BAWE.html
is very interesting for what it says about authors, modern culture, and
the world that those of us who are under 35 have grown up in.
 
In part, it says: 
 
 <<The line between gay and mainstream fiction is blurring. Heterosexual
writers no longer omit gay characters from their universes; authors
formerly categorized as gay writers are now reaching mainstream
readers... For more and more readers - and writers - a good book is a
good book, period.>>
 
I think this pretty much sums up how I feel about things I read, whether
in fanfic or hardbound or paperback novels. A good story is a good
story, and the category it's placed in isn't as relevant as whether it
tells a good story. Am I unusual in this, at least in the
non-fanfic-reading universe ( : broadens the question in hopes of
bringing some of those who read *no* fanfic into the discussion)?
 
 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From gwendolyngrace at yahoo.com  Mon Jan 13 18:22:08 2003
From: gwendolyngrace at yahoo.com (gwendolyngrace <gwendolyngrace@yahoo.com>)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 18:22:08 -0000
Subject: Slash and Fanfic (was: Responses to assaults on my parenting)
In-Reply-To: <avuegm+hg50@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <avv04g+23dg@eGroups.com>

Hi, all.

I've been following this discussion of the past several days with 
interest. I posted once, and almost posted again recently, but waited 
as the conversation moved into new depths of strangeness. So forgive 
me if this gets long; I've saved up a bunch to say.

First of all, as I understand it, this started out as one of those 
perennial "Why do people write slash?" conversations we have all the 
time over at FictionAlley. Again, in case you didn't know, I am one 
of the moderators of the slash boards there, and we have at least one 
of these threads going there all the time.

We'll probably never completely resolve why people see slash context 
or choose to write it--at least, never definitively, and never to the 
satisfaction of every person either asking or answering the question. 
The fact is, there are too many different reasons to number. Even the 
slashers cannot agree on why they enjoy it.

But from there, the conversation here on OT chatter took on a 
decidedly different context. Somewhere folks got to talking about 
warning and rating and keeping it away from kids and protecting the 
pristine images they have of the kids in the books.

Well, I have a few questions.

1. If you truly fear that exposure to others' interpretations of 
their HP will sully the image you have of your HP, then why are you 
even reading fanfic? Why are you here on any of the HPFGU lists? 

When I choose to write a fanfic, I'm not forcing you to accept my 
view; I'm sharing it with you. The same could be said for the 
creative teams who worked on the film versions of books one and two--
they are NOT the same as the books, but they are an opportunity to 
see what many *other* people see in the books. There are lots of 
people on the HPFGU group of lists who feel that exposure to the 
films would have too great an impact on their internal pictures--so 
they didn't go see it. 

It seems to me that if your idea of who and what the characters are 
is that fragile, fanfic is not for you.

When I read a work of fanfiction, I am entering someone else's idea 
of that world. It doesn't matter if that vision concerns what 
happened to Draco when he woke up after being hexed on the Hogwarts 
Express, or whether it's where Remus spent his 12 years between 
Voldemort's fall and coming to teach at Hogwarts. As a reader, I'm 
looking for *someone else's* ideas--not my own.

Now, as a writer, it's my job to present my own ideas in such a way 
as to *share* with my readership what I think. But I do it through 
fanfiction in such a way as to suck my readers in to my plot, and I 
hope that I don't get anything to glaringly "wrong" as to turn them 
right off. 

The trouble is, that's a different something for everyone. For 
example, I was doing fine with Barb's "Psychic Serpent" for about 3 
or 4 chapters - then Snape showed up in a pith helmet. I suppose I 
could have forced myself to go along with it for a bit--and I know 
from talking about Barb's fic exactly *why* he's wearing it--but it 
was too OOC for me, and I couldn't continue.

So, if you're reading along and suddenly, someone shows up and 
behaves in what--for you--is an uncanonical way, you, too can use the 
backbutton. 

Am I scarred for life because I saw Snape in my mind wearing safari 
gear? Hardly. Do I appreciate Barb's success less because I disagree 
with her characterization of Snape? No. It's simply not my Snape. But 
it has nothing to do with whether Snape is gay or not, whether he's 
in love with Lily or not. I've read some extremely good Lily-love 
Snape stories, and while I disagree with them, I still acknowledge 
that they're good stories. I've read and written Snape as gay and 
Snape as straight--actually, I think he's unlikely to feel 
romantically toward anyone, but it doesn't matter to me if the 
characterization is still sufficiently Snape-like and substantiated 
by the plot.

So this leads me to question 2:

2. Why is the *orientation* of the characters such a sticking point 
for some people? If nothing else were "altered" except the 
orientation of a character, why should that make a difference? 

Let's say your favourite character is Fred. You love Fred and you 
think he's just gnarly. He makes you laugh, and your big anxiety in 
Order of the Phoenix is whether he and George will be able to make a 
go of Weasley's Wizard Wheezes, now that Harry has bankrolled them.

Okay. You love Fred. And let's say that in your vision of HP, Fred 
and Angelina are completely batty over one another. The whole "Wanna 
go to the ball with me?" "Oh, all right, then" exchange in GoF just 
sealed it for you: they've been secretly dating for years.

No problem. But say you open a fic and start reading, and in the very 
first scene, Fred and Angelina have a ripping fight, he storms out, 
gets drunk, and admits, sobbing, to George that things 'never felt 
quite right' with Angelina, anyway.

Well, you might be tempted to put the fic down because the author has 
violated your SHIP. But, for the sake of argument, let's say you're 
not as virulent about SHIPs as some, and you're willing to accept 
that maybe the author has a point: Fred and Angelina have never 
seemed more than convivial, so maybe it's not twoo wuv.

You keep reading. You note as you read that the author is doing a 
really excellent job of keeping Fred otherwise in character. He 
speaks like JKR's Fred; he makes jokes like JKR's Fred; in short, you 
can't really find anything (other than his break-up with Angelina) to 
complain about *in his characterization.*

Then comes the scene where Fred, still doubting his feelings, meets a 
handsome and engaging young man--for the sake of not tarnishing 
anyone else's reputation at the moment, we'll say he's a Hogwarts 
alumnus whom we've never met. (Those of you who would hit the "back" 
button because of an Original Character, bear with me.) They share a 
pint or two, start talking, and really have a great time. 

Our OC, we'll call him Quentin, gets his cloak and says something 
like, "This was great fun. Perhaps we could go out again some time." 
Fred agrees--thinking at this time, that he's found a new chum--and 
not realizing that Quentin thinks it's more.

Well, you can tell where this is going. But here's the meat of the 
question: If you love Fred as a character, and if you feel that the 
author is doing an (otherwise) perfect job of portraying his 
character, *why* should 'changing' his orientation be such an 
unforgivable sin?

He's still Fred. He's still the same character you love in the books--
assuming, as I am doing, that the author has not made one 
other "error" in her characterization. Why should "suddenly" making 
him gay (or possibly bi) make such a difference to your opinion?

Are you telling me, are you honestly telling me, that you would love 
these characters *less* if they turned out to be gay?

I'm still firmly in agreement that people have the right to read what 
they like as well as the right to not read what they don't like. And 
not liking slash--well, no, that doesn't make you a homophobe. 

But basing your entire decision about whether a character you would 
otherwise love to read about is as likeable just because of the 
author's choice of said character's orientation? Tsk.

I can see it if the author makes the mistake of showing a sudden 
change in demeanour for the character. That is, if Fred were to all 
of a sudden start lisping, or change his walk so that it could be 
described as "mincing" or otherwise turn into a caricature and no 
longer be "Fred." But if the author otherwise preserves the 
character's integrity--why is his orientation the thing you choose to 
fixate on--the thing you are "disgusted" by?

And why on earth would that one change damage your impression of the 
character? 

Again, look at question one: If your impression of canon is so 
fragile that the barest reference to an image of a character that is 
unlike yours would cause irreparable damage, why are you reading any 
fanfic at all? If even a glimpse of the *summary* would tarnish your 
images, then how do you go about picking *any* fic to read without 
risking your mental pictures?


--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Diana <dianasdolls at y...>" 
<dianasdolls at y...> wrote:

> My suggestion was to just sort the stories into gay and het then 
> sort further by pairings and then by explicitness.  Or do it in 
> reverse - whatever works.  

I agree (as do we all at FA) that people should be able to refine 
their searches by several criteria. However, I just want to say here 
that your suggestion strikes me as using a form of "separate-but-
equal" logic that makes me extremely uncomfortable. Orientation is 
not for me, nor has it ever been, a major "sort" category when I deal 
with people--why should it be one for fics? 

I guess I'm still not understanding exactly what you're afraid of 
seeing.

If I sort by primary pairing, as Heidi mentioned, I'm naturally going 
to generate a list that will already tell me whether that pairing is 
het or slash. I'm not sure why you'd need more information--unless, 
as Heidi was trying to find out, you're looking to avoid all mention 
of any homosexual ever, anywhere. And that is simply unlikely to 
happen.

In today's New York Times, there's an article about the closing of a 
major gay bookstore. One of the reasons cited is that increasingly, 
consumers can find what they're looking for online or through the 
major booksellers like Barnes or Borders. Op Ed writer Bruce Bawer 
says this:

"The line between gay and mainstream fiction is blurring. 
Heterosexual writers no longer omit gay characters from their 
universes; authors formerly categorized as gay writers are now 
reaching mainstream readers....And that's not a terrible thing."

Hallelujah.


Diana also said of authors who don't summarize "responsibly":
 
> Some even feel, as I mentioned above, they are doing 
> any "bigoted, gay-bashing, prudes" who accidentally stumbles across 
> their fanfic a favor by opening up their "little close-minded 
> worlds."  This is very wrong because their assumptions are based on 
> their own predjudices against others and only harms acceptance and 
> understanding of others' differences, not create it. 
>  

Well, over on the slash boards, there's a thread called, "How old 
were you when you read your first slash fic?"

Many of the responses cite an encounter at around age 13 or 14. But 
you'd be amazed how many of them say things like, "I didn't 
understand it then," or "I didn't get it," or "I said, Bleah" and 
then go on to say, "but then I tried another one and I liked that 
one" or "but I came back to a different story a couple years later 
and now I'm a slasher!" or "but then I saw the movie and..." or 
similar sentiments. Essentially, these kids are saying that they were 
bigoted, gay-bashing prudes when they first encountered slash, and 
that they credit reading more slash with opening up their closed-
minded little worlds....

Um. If the fans themselves believe that reading slash fics can change 
how tolerant one is toward homosexuality, then who are we to 
contradict them?

Again, hallelujah.


> 
> What I actually found was blurbs written in such a way as to be 
> quite memorable [so you'd want to read the story, obviously] and 
> they were able to bring forth instantaneous unwelcome images.  

Such as....? I've read many a summary with a "distasteful" image, but 
they generally were neither indelible nor sexual in nature. 

I've seen, "Lucius and his pimp cane" mentioned.
I've seen "rent-boy Draco" or similar.
I've seen "pretty-boy Remus" and other such.
I've seen "Slut!Ginny" and so on.

The thing is, these don't necessarily tell you anything other 
than "If this makes you feel queasy, then for heaven's sake, stay 
away." It isn't a full description--but it is the clearest warning 
post you're going to get.

There are many Draco/Ginny fics, for example, in which Ginny acts 
like a complete whore. But sorting the fics by rating "R", 
pairing "Draco/Ginny," and orientation "Het" isn't going to save you 
from seeing that summary in among the others.

If you were looking at FA's blog, what you're seeing are the latest 
uploaded chapters. They're colour-coded by house, so a title in gold 
would tell you straight off the fic is a parody or humour fic. A fic 
in red is a romance--so if it mentions "Draco and Harry" your odds 
are that it's about the two of them in some sort of romantic 
situation.


Now, Slut!Ginny does happen to make my stomach queasy. I just don't 
think she'd suddenly turn all sexpot on us. But neither does it fill 
my head with an unclean, foul-looking image of the Ginster that I 
feel would taint my impressions of her every time I read the scene 
where she stumbles down to the breakfast table in her nightgown, eeps 
in surprise to see Harry, and runs back out. If anything, the image 
is so incompatible with what I think to be the case that I simply 
don't connect them.

So again, I ask:

1. If you truly fear that exposure to others' interpretations of 
their HP will sully the image you have of your HP, then why are you 
even reading fanfic? 

2. If nothing else were "altered" except the orientation of a 
character, why should that make such a difference? Are you telling 
me, are you honestly telling me, that you would love these characters 
*less* if they turned out to be gay?


Gwen




From siskiou at earthlink.net  Mon Jan 13 18:45:27 2003
From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 10:45:27 -0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] New York Times article which has pertinence to the recent discussion about slash
In-Reply-To: <020101c2bb2b$7db95140$0301a8c0@Frodo>
References: <020101c2bb2b$7db95140$0301a8c0@Frodo>
Message-ID: <15849834752.20030113104527@earthlink.net>



Hi,

Monday, January 13, 2003, 9:44:56 AM, heidit at netbox.com wrote:

> A good story is a good
> story, and the category it's placed in isn't as relevant as whether
> it
> tells a good story.

Right...
And wouldn't it be nice if all fanfiction were telling good
stories in the eyes of everyone <g>?
(or non fanfiction reading materials, for that matter).

I do think it's hard to find what you (the general you, not
the personal) would consider "good" fanfiction stories,
without categories, because there are just too many
different views on the characters out there. And too many
HP stories to ever read all of them!

I read slash and gen, equally, but don't have the time to
give every story out there a try to see what it's about.

I pick according to my preferences and categories (and
blurbs) are very helpful to me in deciding if I want to give
a story a try.

For example, I never get into a fandom (may that be a TV
show, movie or book fandom) by reading fanfiction first.

I always get intrigued by the canon first, and prefer to
read fanfiction that stays reasonably close to what I see as
canon.

This means that AU's, crossovers, way in the past/future
stories, or stories that go in depth  following one character
that I'm not as interested in in canon as some other fans,
are fics that I will pass by without regret.

Looking at mainstream fiction, since finances are tight I
will almost always (unless I know the author and trust them
explicitly) read the book from the library first, to make
sure I like it enough to want to reread it several times.

If it's not available at the library, I'll read it at least
diagonally at a book store, before purchasing.


-- 
Best regards,
 Susanne                           mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net




From Audra1976 at aol.com  Mon Jan 13 19:53:20 2003
From: Audra1976 at aol.com (Audra1976 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 14:53:20 EST
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] "Mudblood"
Message-ID: <123.1caac54b.2b547330@aol.com>

In a message dated 13/01/2003 06:36:36 Eastern Standard Time, 
HebrideanBlack2002 at hotmail.com writes:
> And, while I was a bit put off by your post the first time I read it, Audra, 
> (I do think you were perhaps a bit harsh with me. I don?t have the HP audio 
> tapes, after all <G>) it did help me think through more deeply *why* the 
> word bothers me, and I?ve come to the conclusion that it really *does* 
> bother me. Which doesn?t mean that anyone else on this list has to care or 
> do anything different. I?m not asking that, 

> at all. But the use of the term will continue to have an affect on the way 
> I perceive the people who use it


Me:

Don't be put off, Wen.  I was laughing with you, not at you.  Or at the most, 
laughing NEAR you.  Come on, you have to admit, it is a pretty silly debate.  
We should be so PC now that we have to worry about being sensitive to people 
who don't even exist?  Trust me, I love the HP books and characters as much 
as anyone here (which might be too much, haha), but I don't feel one way or 
another about people who use "mudblood" in their posts.  I don't think you 
can *in any way* extrapolate on their sensitivity for real people or real 
world issues based on that.  If it evokes that feeling in you, then it does, 
and you can't help that, but then at least realize rationally that person 
could just as easily be a very sweet, sensitive soul, who works in a soup 
kitchen or something.  

Actually, I don't think I've ever used the term "mudblood" in a post unless 
specifically referring to characters in the book who use the term.  I use 
"muggleborn," but since I've been thinking about the words now, "mudblood" 
really doesn't put a bad taste in my mouth at all.  I think it has a funky 
sort of sound to it actually, especially if you elongate the vowel sounds 
slightly..."muudblooood."  Try it!  I even entered the Sunday night chat last 
night saying, "'Sup, Mudbloods?"  Nobody commented whether the liked that or 
not.  Maybe I'm the only one, but oh well.  I'm used to being a weirdo at 
this point in my life.  And Wendy, *I* actually *do* have the audio books!!  
So no harshness intended.

Audra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Mon Jan 13 19:11:26 2003
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd <jkusalavagemd@yahoo.com>)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 19:11:26 -0000
Subject: Fanfics, ratings & heated responses (LONG)
In-Reply-To: <017b01c2bb00$1deb01d0$0301a8c0@Frodo>
Message-ID: <avv30u+4g5t@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "heiditandy" <heidit at n...> 

> > 
> > Haggrid then chimed in that she could see what ER was trying to 
say, 
> > even though her word choice may have been poor.
> 
> (Um, Diana? Haggridd's a guy - just an FYI)
> 

Yeah, but I am secure enough in my masculinity that it doesn't bother 
me <g>-- and I just love showtunes! Just ask Amy Z.


> Whew. Hope I covered everything, but I'm sure I missed a few here &
> there...
> 
> Heidi, recovering

One thing that is worth covering, in all seriousness, is that to 
disagree with others' opinions is not necessarily an attack on those 
persons' lifestyles, values, or right to live their lives as they 
choose, but to respond as if it were an attack rapidly makes it a 
self-fulfilling prophecy.  I think that an intemperate and defensive 
response to a post that was by no means an attack diverted this 
thread into unnecessary acrimony.  I have my own personal villains in 
this scenario, whom I will keep to myself-- as do many of you, I am 
sure. Perhaps I am on somebody's villain list.  I can live with 
that.  I have tried to be dispassionate about a matter of literary 
criticism.  It has absolutely no connection whatever with my views on 
anti-discrimation laws for gays-- pardon me, QAJ, gay persons-- of 
which I am wholeheartedly in favor, or with my personal sexuality, 
which is my own business.  I do get very very angry when a bit of 
textual criticism is responded to by distortion, innuendo and mean-
spirited epithets.  To quote another wonderful English author,
"Physician, heal thyself."

Haggridd
(I don't know if you were joking or if it was a typo, Heidi, but the 
plural of synopsis is "synopses".  Sorry, you just can't take the 
beta reader out of the post.)





From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Mon Jan 13 21:52:01 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve <bboy_mn@yahoo.com>)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 21:52:01 -0000
Subject: Responses to assaults on my parenting
In-Reply-To: <avuegm+hg50@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <avvce1+pd7k@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Diana <dianasdolls at y...>"
<dianasdolls at y...> wrote:

bboy_mn with a Foreword:

Countless (at least I'm not counting them) posts have been added to
this thread/subject before I jumped in, and countless more have
appeared since then. It should be obvious that the discussion has gone
beyond your orginal post and is now addressing the subject in general.
THEREFORE, not everything said is a direct assault on you. 

A majority of the comments made by me and by other are to the subject
in general, and when you read, you have to temper what you read with
some awareness of what is general and what is specific. 'YOU' doesn't
alway mean you personally, sometime the use of the word 'you' is in
the same sense as the use of the world 'they'. As in the
generalization, 'You know what /they/ say'.

>From your response:
> bboy_mn jumps on the same wagon with both feet:
> >>If the problem is your kids reading my stories, then the problem
> >>is YOU. If your kids are reading racist literature then the 
> >>problem is YOU. If you kids are read about bomb making then the 
> >>problem is YOU. It's not my job to supervise your kids. 
> >> ...edited..
> >> -end this part-

bboy_mn NOW replies:
And you find that to be a mis-statement. Because the alternative is,
if your kids (kids in general which includes your kids) are reading
about making bombs, then the problem ISN'T you? Both generally and
specifically, if your kids are reading inappropraite material based on
any reasonable judgement of inappropriate material, then there is
certainly nothing I can personally do about it. But there is something
that you (referring to kids in general and parents in general) can do
about it. Like I said, I can't come into your (or anyone else's) house
and shut off their computer. So if this isn't your responsibility and
the responsibility of each parent to their children then who's
responsibility is it. ...the government? ...the law? Do you really
want them coming into your house and controlling your lives? I think not.

It IS the parent's responsibility to supervise their kids both
generally and specifically. That is a general fact. A general fact
who's existance in no way implies that you DO NOT supervise your
children. How does saying children need to be supervised imply that I
think you do not supervise yours? You may have inferred that, but I
don't see that I implied that. At least, not when you apply my
statements to the subject in general. In fact, your orginial post
indicates that you specifically do control your children's internet
use, but you are not all parents in general. Again, we must sort out
what is general and what is specific.

>From your response quoting me:
> bboy_mn wrote:
> So back to the question/comment that started all this, I can see why
> some people don't 'get it'. But, personally, I don't get what the
> fastination is with 'Buffy'. Dead boring if you ask me. Solution - I
> don't read Buffy stories. You don't like Slash, you don't 'get it';
> solution - don't read it.
>-end this part-

bboy again repies:
Again... is that a mis-statement? I think not. The obvious solution
is, if I don't like Buffy, then I shouldn't read Buffy. You also
failed to include the part were I said "You have every right not to
'get it'. That is your priviledge.". 

Some people attacked you as homophobic for not 'getting it' when it
comes to slash. I tried to say that making that choice is not
homophobic but the logical choice and a choice that is your
priviledge. I was defending you, your rights, and your choices. That's
why I gave the Buffy example. We all have likes and dislike, we all
have preferences, we all have things we don't get. So we stay away
from them. That is not prejudice, that's free choice.

Common sense says that a huge number of people read slash because they
find it appealing, and equally so, a huge number don't read it because
they don't find it appealing. You don't find it appealing. That is
your right and priviledge, and you can't and shouldn't be attacked for
that. 

Part of the reason I defended you (although, apparently I didn't do it
very well) is that, while uneasy with your use of the word 'normal' I
read your intended use as 'common' or 'norm' as did many other people.

The whole confusion regarding what I wrote hinges on being able to
differentiate between what addresses the subject in general and what
is addressed to you personally. Whether you see it or not, after I
addressed the subject in general, I defended your right to take the
position you did take.

And since by your own admission, you don't get it (slash that is) I
attempted to explain who does get it and why they get it. A very
substantial number of Slash readers and writer are hetrosexual young
women. While logic would make one assume it was all gay men. I though
that was a very significant point. That addresses who; the why is, we
are having fun, and we are keeping our fun contained as much as is
reasonably possible to like minded individuals who seek this
information out.

I think if you go back and re-read what I wrote with a substantial
effort to sort out what is addressed to the subject in general and
what is addressed at you specifically, I hope you will see that I'm on
your side. I was defending your right not to get it.

Sorry if you didn't see it that way.

bboy_mn
 
> 
> Well, that's enough for this novel.  I'll respond more in other 
> posts.
> 
> Diana




From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Mon Jan 13 22:40:13 2003
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David <dfrankiswork@netscape.net>)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 22:40:13 -0000
Subject: No longer to do with slash
In-Reply-To: <15849834752.20030113104527@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <avvf8d+niec@eGroups.com>

 Susanne wrote:

> If it's not available at the library, I'll read it at least
> diagonally at a book store, before purchasing.

Diagonally?

David, writing nocturnally




From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Mon Jan 13 22:43:30 2003
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd <jkusalavagemd@yahoo.com>)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 22:43:30 -0000
Subject: Slash and Fanfic (was: Responses to assaults on my parenting)
In-Reply-To: <avv04g+23dg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <avvfei+uocf@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "gwendolyngrace 
<gwendolyngrace at y...>" <gwendolyngrace at y...> wrote:
> Hi, all.
Hello,

Without being patronising, let me say that you have made some 
interesting points, some of which have affected how I look at the 
issues before us.  I am still mulling things over; I don't know how I 
will feel at the end.  I do not want to refute what you say, but I 
would like to raise some counter-questions to the ones you pose:
> 
> Well, I have a few questions.
> 
> 1. If you truly fear that exposure to others' interpretations of 
> their HP will sully the image you have of your HP, then why are you 
> even reading fanfic? Why are you here on any of the HPFGU lists? 
> 
> When I choose to write a fanfic, I'm not forcing you to accept my 
> view; I'm sharing it with you. The same could be said for the 
> creative teams who worked on the film versions of books one and two-
-
> they are NOT the same as the books, but they are an opportunity to 
> see what many *other* people see in the books. There are lots of 
> people on the HPFGU group of lists who feel that exposure to the 
> films would have too great an impact on their internal pictures--so 
> they didn't go see it. 
> 
> It seems to me that if your idea of who and what the characters are 
> is that fragile, fanfic is not for you.
> 

Counter-question #1:  If you write fiction that is so antithetical to 
the stories as written by the author, why do you want to write 
"fan" fiction in the first place? Write about Jim and Joe and Dilbert 
and Bobby Sue instead.



> 
> So this leads me to question 2:
> 
> 2. Why is the *orientation* of the characters such a sticking point 
> for some people? If nothing else were "altered" except the 
> orientation of a character, why should that make a difference? 
> 

I'll snip your example of Fred.  I don't have a counter-question 
other than to ask why a writer would want to create a character with 
such a life-defining characteristic, one which profoundly affects 
outlook, philosophy and behavior, and have the character act, think, 
want, love, precisely the same as if he/she did not have this life-
defining characteristic.?  What would be the point?
If your thesis is that there is absolutely no difference in these 
attributes between gay persons and straight persons, I can only say 
that perhaps the writewr needs some more exposure to life before 
attempting this character.


> I'm still firmly in agreement that people have the right to read 
what 
> they like as well as the right to not read what they don't like. 
And 
> not liking slash--well, no, that doesn't make you a homophobe. 
> 

> 
> Again, look at question one: If your impression of canon is so 
> fragile that the barest reference to an image of a character that 
is 
> unlike yours would cause irreparable damage, why are you reading 
any 
> fanfic at all? If even a glimpse of the *summary* would tarnish 
your 
> images, then how do you go about picking *any* fic to read without 
> risking your mental pictures?
> 
Gwen (If I may address you so) By exaggerating the previously stated 
objections-- among those some of my own-- you are setting up straw 
men of your own here and knocking them down. They're your straw men, 
knocking them down makes no point.   
> 


> 
> 
> Now, Slut!Ginny does happen to make my stomach queasy. I just don't 
> think she'd suddenly turn all sexpot on us.



Actually, I think that this Slut!Ginny story is equally departing 
from JKR's stories, and I would not find such a story edifying or 
enjoyable.  Counter-question:  Why should this story not carry 
content lables as well as the slash?

 But neither does it fill 
> my head with an unclean, foul-looking image of the Ginster that I 
> feel would taint my impressions of her every time I read the scene 
> where she stumbles down to the breakfast table in her nightgown, 
eeps 
> in surprise to see Harry, and runs back out. If anything, the image 
> is so incompatible with what I think to be the case that I simply 
> don't connect them.
> 

Nicely written image, but still a strawman.
> So again, I ask:
> 
> 1. If you truly fear that exposure to others' interpretations of 
> their HP will sully the image you have of your HP, then why are you 
> even reading fanfic? 
> 
> 2. If nothing else were "altered" except the orientation of a 
> character, why should that make such a difference? Are you telling 
> me, are you honestly telling me, that you would love these 
characters 
> *less* if they turned out to be gay?
> 
> 
See above counterquestions, please.

Haggridd
> Gwen





From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Mon Jan 13 22:54:22 2003
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd <jkusalavagemd@yahoo.com>)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 22:54:22 -0000
Subject: The last word on slash
Message-ID: <avvg2u+ekj3@eGroups.com>

There is an item in The Leaky Cauldron which refers to an article in  
Scotsman.com which says that JKR's lawyers are taking steps to 
eliminate slash fanfic sites.  Are attorneys working for JKR, at her 
behest, considered canon?

Haggridd





From sushi at societyhappens.com  Mon Jan 13 23:27:37 2003
From: sushi at societyhappens.com (Sushi)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 17:27:37 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] The last word on slash
In-Reply-To: <avvg2u+ekj3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030113172011.026f9890@mail.societyhappens.com>

At 10:54 PM 1/13/03 +0000, you wrote:
>There is an item in The Leaky Cauldron which refers to an article in
>Scotsman.com which says that JKR's lawyers are taking steps to
>eliminate slash fanfic sites.  Are attorneys working for JKR, at her
>behest, considered canon?


         Given that the article comes from a rabidly right-wing paper known 
for a homophobic attitude (or so my friends in the UK tell me), I'm taking 
the whole situation with a grain of salt.  In any case, if they were coming 
down on all adult-oriented fanfic it wouldn't be so much of a problem.  If 
they're targeting slash and only slash, that's just discrimination.  If it 
means losing well-written, character-oriented, thoughtful, intelligent, 
decidedly non-pornographic (sexual situations can be anything from tasteful 
to terrifying) stories that simply feature two members of the same sex in a 
relationship, and leaving choppy, hack-fodder pr0n just because it's a man 
and a woman, then simply on the grounds of being a writer I shall be 
furious.  That's not protecting the children, that's biased censorship.

         Er, sorry.  Rant over.  This has been ALLLL over the slash lists 
of late, btw.

Sushi, who tends to think same-sex relationships just make more *sense* 
(especially from logistical and financial points of view), much to the 
consternation of her husband ;)

         PS, ignore that.  I can overanalyse *anything*.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Mon Jan 13 23:35:30 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve <bboy_mn@yahoo.com>)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 23:35:30 -0000
Subject: Where in the World is HOGWARTS?
In-Reply-To: <avuren+leal@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <avvig2+gl0g@eGroups.com>

Kenneth,

I would never think to besmirch (it's that new CD Dictionary again)
the reputation of the almight Lexicon. (I'm really serious here,
that's not sarcasm) But I think their map is pointing to lower
northern Scotland in general. After all, a little north of Glasgow is
the same latitude as a little north of Edinburgh. 

Is still favor the (1b) region. Perfect in my book.

Glad you liked my maps. That map program only cost $10. Yep, $10. It's
called 3D Atlas, and is available in most computer and software
stores. They all have this big area where you can get $5 to $15 CD-ROM
Software. Although, if you promise no to tell anyone, I have to
confess that I used my photo editing program to do screen captures. 

In the next installment of 'Steve Does HP Geography', I'll show you
where the Dragon Research Center is in Romania. I though I had the
perfect place picked out. It was hidden valley completely surrounded
by moutains. It was so perfect I was ready to write it into some
FanFic, then I checked it on the software atlas and there are road,
railroads, and towns in that valley. But never fear, I found secluded
mountain region large enough to hide a Dragon Preserve.

If you'd like a preview, check this link-
http://www.homestead.com/BlueMoonMarket/Files/Hogwarts/Romania1.jpg 

bboy_mn


--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Kenneth M. Kuller
<ken.kuller at v...>" <ken.kuller at v...> wrote:
> The map of Wizarding Brittain, 
> http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/atlas-b-britain.html , 
> in the Harry Potter Lexicon, 
> http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/ 
> indicates a position in the vicinity of sites 3 and 4.
> 
> Key clues to support Hogwarts castle being located in this general 
> area are as follows:
> * It is is eight to nine hours north of London by train.
> * You cannot go more than five hours by train from London 
>   in a consistant direction without going into Scotland.
> * Haggis was served at Nearly Headless Nick's Deathday Party;
>   that is a Scottish dish made of calf or sheep offal.
>   http://www.smart.net/~tak/haggis.html#T1
> * The latitude and longitude & sunset times on Sept 1 and on 
>   June 6 (big events in PoA) also place Hogwarts castle in 
>   Scotland, a bit north of Edinburgh.
> * The Hogwarts Express tour went to Edinburgh, and then on to 
>   Perth. It did not go as far as Aberdeen.
> 
> Thank you, Steve!  Your detective work of identifying secluded
>  areas, near rivers and lakes, with both nearby roads and rail 
> lines, is  commendable.  That these guesses are supported by other 
> facts is all the more impressive.
> 
> 
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Steve <bboy_mn at y...>" 
> <bboy_mn at y...> wrote:
> > 
> > To see the satellite images of the FOUR possible locations, go to 
> this link. (personal site, non-commerial)
> > 
> > http://www.homestead.com/BlueMoonMarket/Files/Hogwarts/hogwarts1.htm
> > 
> > [Alternative]
> > 
> > http://BlueMoonMarket.homestead.com/Files/Hogwarts/hogwarts1.htm
> > 
> > I was going to post the images here but they are about 100k each, 
> >  
> > 
> > bboy_mn




From siskiou at earthlink.net  Mon Jan 13 23:38:09 2003
From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 15:38:09 -0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] No longer to do with slash
In-Reply-To: <avvf8d+niec@eGroups.com>
References: <avvf8d+niec@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8367399454.20030113153809@earthlink.net>



Hi,

Monday, January 13, 2003, 2:40:13 PM, dfrankiswork at netscape.net wrote:

> Diagonally?

Oh, sorry.

I'm from Germany, and there this expressions means you speed read
through it to get an idea of style, content and such.

-- 
Best regards,
 Susanne                           mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net




From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk  Tue Jan 14 00:16:42 2003
From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak <pipdowns@etchells0.demon.co.uk>)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 00:16:42 -0000
Subject: Ratings. A good story is a good story. Sex in canon.
In-Reply-To: <020101c2bb2b$7db95140$0301a8c0@Frodo>
Message-ID: <avvktb+tcol@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "heiditandy" <heidit at n...> 
>  
> I think this pretty much sums up how I feel about things I read, 
whether
> in fanfic or hardbound or paperback novels. A good story is a good
> story, and the category it's placed in isn't as relevant as 
whether it
> tells a good story. Am I unusual in this, at least in the
> non-fanfic-reading universe ( : broadens the question in hopes of
> bringing some of those who read *no* fanfic into the discussion)?
>  
> 

As a *no* fanfics reader... 
::Puts on tin hat and flame proof underwear::

No, I don't think it's an unusual attitude. I would hate to 
see 'slash' style warnings on paperback books. I don't 
like 'romance' genre books (excepting Jane Austen) and a required 
warning that 'this book contains same sex relationships' would imply 
to me that the story was *entirely* about relationships. Similarly, 
when I read a blurb along the lines of '30 something Liz had decided 
Mr Right was never going to come along' I go 'yuk!' and put the book 
back on the shelf.

There's a book by S.M. Stirling which I've reread several times 
('Island in the Sea of Time'), because it *is* a good story.
SPOILERS AHEAD
If it had required warnings about 'adult' sex content, I would 
probably never have read it, because the book contains [in order of 
appearance]:

straight characters
gay characters
not so mild scenes of hetrosexual rape
long term straight relationships and descriptions of straight sex
long term gay relationships and descriptions of gay sex
mild scenes of sado masochistic straight sex
threats of homosexual rape

and I really don't want to go into the 'bestiality sex scene with 
live jaguar'... 

The point is, the blurb doesn't mention sex at all, and the book 
isn't about sex. The relationships and sex are all plot and 
character driven (yes, even the bit with the jaguar...). Most of the 
sex scenes are two or three lines and leave the rest to the reader's 
imagination. The book is a time travel story, largely keeping to the 
conventions of the military/sf genre.

But requiring it to carry detailed categorization would make it 
sound like the sort of pornography that should be in 'Adult Only' 
Bookstores.
 



FictionAlley, as Heidi said earlier, is a 13 + site. That means it 
is more protective of children than a television set, which makes no 
attempt whatsoever to determine who is switching it on and watching 
whatever comes out (unless you're a caring parent, and install a 
child lock). FictionAlley has taken more precautions than a 
bookstore. It has told readers 'this fic is definitely adult in 
content. If you're not 17 or over, you should have your parents 
permission to read it.'

If a child in a bookshop decides to pick a book off the shelf in the 
adult SF section, opens 'Island in the Sea of Time', and unerringly 
hits the bit with the jaguar, that is not actually the fault of the 
bookshop. They've put the book in the right section. It's the child 
who's found their way into the *wrong* section. 

And yes, the kid probably should be better supervised by their 
parents, and yes, lot's of kids aren't, as I know from experience. 
But the bookstore, and the website, have done their job when they 
say 'this is not the children's section.' FictionAlley have done 
more than their job. They tell the kid *again*; 'this particular fic 
is for adults. Are you sure you're old enough? Do your parents let 
you read adult stuff?'

**Sex and the HP characters**
Well, IMO, it's there in the books already. It's just largely in the 
background, because the books are mostly from Harry's pov. Harry 
doesn't really notice adult sex yet. He hasn't picked up that 
Professor Grubbly Plank is running for 'most stereotyped lesbian 
teacher of the year' award. That Aunt Marge is downright disturbing 
in the pleasure she gets from bullying him. That Molly and Arthur 
have seven kids. That Professor McGonagall flirts with Dumbledore... 
And in his own age group, that Justin's attitude to Lockhart was 
extremely similar to Hermione's outright crush. 

I'm not a fanfic writer. But if a fanfic writer decides *not* to use 
Harry's pov, why should they have to keep sexual relationships in 
the background? The main reason they are in the background at the 
moment is because we are seeing the WW through the eyes of a young 
boy. The older he gets, the more we are seeing. Why should that 
constraint apply to a fanfic writer who has chosen a different pov, 
or chosen to age the characters up?
 


And why should any writer have to warn their adult readers about the 
nature of their characters sexual relationships? Writers reflect the 
real world in their creations. In the real world, people are gay, 
bisexual, straight, promiscuous, faithful, celibate, or frankly more 
interested in chocolate. 

So why should they be required to warn a reader about their 
character's chocolate fetish? ;0)

Pip




From john at queerasjohn.com  Tue Jan 14 01:01:38 2003
From: john at queerasjohn.com (Queer as John)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 01:01:38 +0000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Where in the World is HOGWARTS?
In-Reply-To: <avvig2+gl0g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <BA4911F2.5511%john@queerasjohn.com>

Steve <bboy_mn at yahoo.com> said:

> I would never think to besmirch (it's that new CD Dictionary again)
> the reputation of the almight Lexicon. (I'm really serious here,
> that's not sarcasm) But I think their map is pointing to lower
> northern Scotland in general. After all, a little north of Glasgow is
> the same latitude as a little north of Edinburgh.

Actually, there is direct canon evidence that Hogwarts is only just north of
the Lothian (Edinburgh) region. In CoS, the Daily Prophet reports that the
Anglia was spotted over Peebles. Peebles is a small town halfway between
Carlisle and Edinburgh in the Scottish Borders.

Given the sunset times for September, and assuming that the Hogwarts Express
doesn't go north to come south again, the Hogwarts Express could not have
been north of Peebles before sunset.

Which, incidentally, means that the HE is faster than the East Coast Main
Line Muggle trains, and I am very envious. :D

--John

______________________________________

Queer as John || john at queerasjohn.com

AIM, YM & LJ @ QueerAsJohn || www.queerasjohn.com

"There's nowt as queer as folk."  --English proverb
______________________________________




From gwendolyngrace at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 14 01:11:51 2003
From: gwendolyngrace at yahoo.com (gwendolyngrace <gwendolyngrace@yahoo.com>)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 01:11:51 -0000
Subject: Slash and Fanfic (was: Responses to assaults on my parenting)
In-Reply-To: <avvfei+uocf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <avvo4n+m4pe@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Haggridd 
<jkusalavagemd at y...>" <jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:

 
> I would like to raise some counter-questions to the ones you pose:
> > 
> > 
> 
> Counter-question #1:  If you write fiction that is so antithetical 
to 
> the stories as written by the author, why do you want to write 
> "fan" fiction in the first place? Write about Jim and Joe and 
Dilbert 
> and Bobby Sue instead.
> 

Because, clearly, the author in that instance doesn't feel the fic is 
too much of a stretch--or if they *do* acknowledge a major shift, 
they are playing with what the audience thinks they know in order to 
change things around. Someone who sees slash potential in the canon 
from the beginning wouldn't necessarily see their interpretation as 
any sort of antithesis of the books.


> > 
> 
> I'll snip your example of Fred.  I don't have a counter-question 
> other than to ask why a writer would want to create a character 
with 
> such a life-defining characteristic, one which profoundly affects 
> outlook, philosophy and behavior, and have the character act, 
think, 
> want, love, precisely the same as if he/she did not have this life-
> defining characteristic.?  What would be the point?

You're assuming that orientation must necessarily inform every other 
aspect of one's life. Know any members of Gay Republicans? You're 
also assuming that characters cannot be dynamic. And you're also 
ignoring that frequently authors choose to work with characters 
already in existence for a variety of reasons, including "seeing it 
that way" as I explain above, as well as wanting an identifiable 
person whom the audience will know instantly, as well as for the 
specific purpose of subverting the books and deliberately playing 
upon the stereotypes.

> If your thesis is that there is absolutely no difference in these 
> attributes between gay persons and straight persons, I can only say 
> that perhaps the writewr needs some more exposure to life before 
> attempting this character.
>

Excuse me? Again, you are assuming that being gay absolutely informs 
every other decision one makes in life. Now who is raising straw men?

My point is that a person is more than the sum of all the things that 
make him an individual--and while orientation is a very important 
part of that combination, it is by far not the only thing--or even 
the most important thing. Also, as others have said, orientation 
could well be something determined long before the person actually 
puts together his or her personal equation. Other aspects, such as 
political views, favourite colour, and everything else, are formed 
right alongside and among every other piece of one's makeup. 

If you think that in order to be "gay" one must conform to the 
stereotypes, one must live the lifestyle and participate in the 
community--that, in short, one must change everything both outward 
and inward, then perhaps you are the one who needs further 
acquaintance with "life"--or at least, the lives of the GLBT.

Perhaps you thought I was trivializing the process of realization one 
goes through to come out. If I gave that impression, I'm sorry--
speaking as someone who's been through it, I wouldn't do that 
intentionally.

However, whether one's process was easy or prolonged, the fact 
remains that orientation does *not* have to mean anything else 
changes. Any person whom you do not know to be gay is still the same 
person five seconds after they tell you they are. *That* is the point 
for which I used Fred as an illustration--that nothing else *needs* 
to change in his overall characterisation. Do you think if Fred were 
gay, he would no longer play practical jokes? Do you think he would 
stop playing Quidditch? Do you think he would suddenly feel 
differently about Malfoy, or change his position on house-elves? Do 
you believe his speech pattern would suddenly change? What, exactly, 
do you think "coming out" does to someone? Did I grow horns a 
paragraph ago because I came out?

One can't make assumptions about any other aspect of a person just 
because of sexuality. As John said, do not assume that because 
someone is gay it means they are promiscuous. Neither are they 
liberal, or not Christian, or anything else. I have GLBT friends who 
are Catholic. I have GLBT friends who are Republican. I know about a 
dozen who were married and some who had children before coming out. 
Being gay doesn't mean that, at the age of 40 or so, they decided to 
start clubbing or felt they needed to get a nipple piercing. There 
are gays who believe they have a "community," and gays who are 
skeptical that such a thing exists, or who feel uncomfortable as part 
of it. There are gays who are pro-life, and gays who belong to the 
NRA. 

So yes, actually, I do believe that one can realize one is gay, and 
it doesn't change anything else about oneself. 

But, I suppose that provides an answer to my question. I asked why 
the change of orientation alone should mean a radical change in one's 
opinion of the character.

Apparently, your answer is that you believe the change of orientation 
automatically changes practically everything about the character.

Gwen




From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 14 02:50:49 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve <bboy_mn@yahoo.com>)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 02:50:49 -0000
Subject: Where in the World is HOGWARTS?
In-Reply-To: <BA4911F2.5511%john@queerasjohn.com>
Message-ID: <avvtu9+8pgv@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Queer as John <john at q...> wrote:
> Steve <bboy_mn at y...> said:
> 
> > But I think their map is pointing to lower northern Scotland in 
> > general. After all, a little north of Glasgow is the same latitude
> > as a little north of Edinburgh.
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

> Actually, there is direct canon evidence that Hogwarts is only just
> north of the Lothian (Edinburgh) region. In CoS, the Daily Prophet 
> reports that the Anglia was spotted over Peebles. Peebles is a small
> town halfway between Carlisle and Edinburgh in the Scottish Borders.
> 
> Given the sunset times for September, and assuming that the Hogwarts
> Express doesn't go north to come south again, the Hogwarts Express 
> could not have been north of Peebles before sunset.
> 
> Which, incidentally, means that the HE is faster than the East 
> Coast Main Line Muggle trains, and I am very envious. :D
> 
> --John

bboy_mn:
Ok John, let's see your direct evidence.

Where does it say in the book what time the sun went down relative to
their location? 

Where does it say how fast they went? How far they went? Where they
were when the sun set.

You seem to be taking a percise sunset time and assigning it to a
specific location. While I admit, I'm assuming that. I see no other
way to apply the data to the conclusion. Even if you looked up the
sunset in the newspaper, the still doesn't help unless you have both
precise time AND LOCATION. 

I see references like 'flew for hours'... but I see no exact time and
location data.

Now, it's alway getting dark when the arrive at Hogwarts. So you can
take leave at 11:00am and arrive at (look up sunset in paper which is
only good if you know longitude and latitude in advance) and have the
travel time. But travel time doesn't help without travel speed. One
way or another, you need a precise time and a pricise location. 

Yes, they flew over Peebles which is 34 Kilometers south of Edinburgh.
For reference, 30K is about 18.6 miles.

According to my software world atlas, the train track (single track,
multi-track and light rail) runs 27 kilometers west of Peebles. And in
rough that same area 27K west of Peebles and few Kilometers north, the
train track splits and allows you to go EITHER to Glasgow or
Edinburgh. The same track that goes by Peeble can take you to either
place. Since there is no mention of the train going through another
major city, I have to assume that they are on one of the other tracks
that passes just slightly to the east of Glasgow which would roughly
follow the path: Larkhall, Bellshill, Airdrie, Cumbernauld as it
by-passes Glasgow.

There are other tracks that follow the coast line on either side of
the country, but there are no references to seeing the ocean as they
travel, so I have to assume they used the inland route.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

bboy_mn





From catlady at wicca.net  Tue Jan 14 06:08:01 2003
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston) <catlady@wicca.net>)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 06:08:01 -0000
Subject: "Mudblood"
In-Reply-To: <123.1caac54b.2b547330@aol.com>
Message-ID: <b009g1+ejv1@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Audra1976 at a... wrote:

> slightly..."muudblooood."  Try it!  I even entered the Sunday night
> chat last night saying, "'Sup, Mudbloods?"  Nobody commented 
> whether they liked that or not.  

I assumed that you were humorously referring to your post on that 
thread here in OT, and I assumed that everyone else assumed the 
same thing, and I was torn between a small smile of laughter and a 
small moue of disapproval. That means, the joke *was* funny but I 
don't agree with your position.




From catlady at wicca.net  Tue Jan 14 06:20:19 2003
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston) <catlady@wicca.net>)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 06:20:19 -0000
Subject: "antithetical" Fanfic 
In-Reply-To: <avvfei+uocf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b00a73+qebd@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Haggridd 
<jkusalavagemd at y...>" <jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:

> Counter-question #1:  If you write fiction that is so antithetical
> to the stories as written by the author, why do you want to write 
> "fan" fiction in the first place? Write about Jim and Joe and 
> Dilbert and Bobby Sue instead.

In general, the writer of said fanfic BELIEVES that it is NOT 
antithetical to the intention of the author. I mean, I believe that 
even a writer who portrays Ginny as a *total* slut really believes 
that Ginny really *is* like that, or will be in fifth or sixth year 
or whenever the story is set. 

Some fanfics are written to change the Potterverse *just* a *little* 
for the sake of rescuing a beloved character. Tons of women write 
romances for Severus, Remus, or Sirius for the same reason that 
they, those same women, would try to fix them, those hot but lonely 
blokes, up with a girl(boy)friend if we knew them in real life rather 
than in literature. This is also the reason we try to make Draco join 
the good side ... 





From catlady at wicca.net  Tue Jan 14 06:25:09 2003
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston) <catlady@wicca.net>)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 06:25:09 -0000
Subject: Ratings. A good story is a good story. Sex in canon.
In-Reply-To: <avvktb+tcol@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b00ag5+uugf@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "bluesqueak <pipdowns at e...>" 
<pipdowns at e...> wrote:

> If a child in a bookshop decides to pick a book off the shelf in 
> the adult SF section, opens 'Island in the Sea of Time', and 
> unerringly hits the bit with the jaguar, that is not actually the 
> fault of the bookshop. They've put the book in the right section. 
> It's the child who's found their way into the *wrong* section. 
> 
> And yes, the kid probably should be better supervised by their 
> parents, 

Dear God(s), I am *thankful* that *my* parents didn't 'supervise' 
my reading, or I might have had to learn about sex by doing it 
instead of from books. 




From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 14 07:58:15 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve <bboy_mn@yahoo.com>)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 07:58:15 -0000
Subject: "Mudblood"
In-Reply-To: <b009g1+ejv1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b00fun+jst1@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)
<catlady at w...>" <catlady at w...> wrote:
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Audra1976 at a... wrote:
> 
> > slightly..."muudblooood."  Try it!  I even entered the Sunday night
> > chat last night saying, "'Sup, Mudbloods?"  Nobody commented 
> > whether they liked that or not.  
> 
> I assumed that you were humorously referring to your post on that 
> thread here in OT, and I assumed that everyone else assumed the 
> same thing, and I was torn between a small smile of laughter and a 
> small moue of disapproval. That means, the joke *was* funny but I 
> don't agree with your position.

bboy_mn: 

I think I have to finally chime in on this subject in general.

Muggle-born is a statement of fact. 
If your parents are muggles, then you are a muggle-born, just like if
your ancestors and parents are Spanish then you are born of Spanish
decent; Spanish-born.

Mudblood is a statement of someone's derogatory and insulting opinion. 
While we can use it because it is a fake word about fictional people,
it is still not an true or accurate description, or a proper
description, and it is derogatory and insulting. 

The words when used properly and in context are not interchangable. We
may interchange them casually because it's difficult to insult someone
who doesn't exist, but none the less, they are not interchangable.

Free world...
Free choice...

Do what you want.

State a fact or use an insult. Totally up to you.

That's all I have to say on this subject.

bboy_mn











From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 14 09:24:11 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve <bboy_mn@yahoo.com>)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 09:24:11 -0000
Subject: Where in the World is HOGWARTS? Rail Routes
In-Reply-To: <avvtu9+8pgv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b00kvr+ir9g@eGroups.com>

Below is a link to a map of the UK rail lines near Peeble, Glasgow, &
Edinburgh that show the rail lines that take you past Peeble and
allows you to go to either NE or NW Scotland without passing through
Glasgow or Edinburgh. Routes leading to all 4 of the location I
selected as likely Howarts sites.

http://www.homestead.com/BlueMoonMarket/Files/Hogwarts/UKRailRoute.jpg

Just a little more information. I admit these routes and locations add
some miles to the journey. But if you get much farther south than the
areas I selected, you start to get away from lakes, rivers, and
mountains, and get into more heavily populated areas; too many towns,
too many roads, too many muggles.

Looking at the rail line that goes to area (4), it would probably have
to run along the coast for a short ways, but there is no mention of
the train running along side the sea, so I lean away from area (4).
It's also the smallest, but it is the closest to Edinburgh.

Of course, we are talking about an enchanted place, so it could be in
downtown Edinburgh and no one would notice it. I'm just searching for
places that seem to logically meet the requirements for a place like
Hogwarts. It's not easy trying to find an unplottable ficticious place
on the map. 

bboy_mn 

> For reference, 30K is about 18.6 miles.





From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk  Tue Jan 14 09:36:33 2003
From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak <pipdowns@etchells0.demon.co.uk>)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 09:36:33 -0000
Subject: Ratings and supervision
In-Reply-To: <b00ag5+uugf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b00ln1+qiqr@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince 
Winston) <catlady at w...>" <catlady at w...> wrote:
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "bluesqueak 
<pipdowns at e...>" 
> <pipdowns at e...> wrote:
> 
> > If a child in a bookshop decides to pick a book off the shelf in 
> > the adult SF section, opens 'Island in the Sea of Time', and 
> > unerringly hits the bit with the jaguar, that is not actually 
> > the fault of the bookshop. They've put the book in the right  
> > section.It's the child who's found their way into the *wrong*  
> > section.
> > And yes, the kid probably should be better supervised by their 
> > parents, 

> Catlady:
> Dear God(s), I am *thankful* that *my* parents didn't 'supervise' 
> my reading, or I might have had to learn about sex by doing it 
> instead of from books.

Pip again:
:: twinkles cheerfully at Catlady::

Really? You let a five year old read any adult book they like?

Yes, yes, I know. Reductio ad absurdium, or however you spell it. 
But I suspect what we would actually be arguing about is not whether 
children's reading should be supervised, but the *age* at which it 
becomes unsupervised.

My parents never supervised my reading. They never bought me books 
either, though they were great readers themselves. So 'freedom to 
read anything' largely translated as 'freedom to read anything *we* 
like, and if you don't like it, you have to use your pocket money to 
buy your own bloomin' books'.

My grandparents,(who I lived with quite a lot), did supervise my 
reading and never allowed me (pre teen) into the 'adult' section of 
bookshops, or to read one of their 'grown up' books. On the other 
hand, because they knew I loved reading, I was frequently treated to 
books, which I would pick myself from the children's section of the 
bookshop.

So, while you may find this surprising, Catlady, I 
associate 'supervision' with 'caring and indulgence'.

On the other hand, wandering back to HP, I doubt Harry 
associates 'supervision' with caring. The Dursley's 'supervision' 
boils down to 'let's stop the kid doing *anything* he likes'.  

And in PoA, Harry reacts quite badly to being refused permission to 
go to Hogsmeade. Because he's had such a bad experience 
of 'supervision' it doesn't occur to him that the adults surrounding 
him might actually have a good reason to allow him less than total 
freedom. That they might think it's going to be a lot easier to 
protect him from Sirius if he stays in the castle.

It comes down to motive. 'Supervision' is not a bad thing, if it 
boils down to 'genuinely wanting to protect and care for the 
child'. 'Total freedom' might not be a good thing, if it boils down 
to the sort of benign neglect ('we don't really *care* what you 
read') I got from my parents.

But reverse the motives and you get 'supervision' which is 'stopping 
a child from doing what it enjoys', and 'freedom' which translates 
to 'I think you'll learn best by making your own choices.'

Is there a quote along the lines of 'there is nothing good or bad 
but thinking makes it so?' If there is, it probably applies very 
strongly to supervising or not supervising what kids are allowed to 
do.

Pip




From mb2910 at hotmail.com  Tue Jan 14 11:49:57 2003
From: mb2910 at hotmail.com (Meira B)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 13:49:57 +0200
Subject: Responses to [perceived] assaults... (it's long, sorry ... or maybe not *g*)
Message-ID: <F267tthHbCHUjlW983o000061fc@hotmail.com>

Me:
Ok, don't hurt me, this is going to be a bit long, since I snipped just a 
little bit of the original post... just thought I should warn you.



Diana:
>The majority of parents are just not ready to explain to their child how 
>gay
>sex 'works' exactly in context with his favorite fictional HP characters.


John:
I am becoming increasingly frustrated with your continual, unceasing
equations of the appearance of gay characters with sex, sex, sex, because
that belittles gay people. The stereotype of gay people as rampant
nymphomaniacs is as ludicrous and demeaning as the stereotype of black
people as criminals. Please stop perpetuating it.


Me:
I understood Diana's words here in a different way.
Sex is a natural part of our lives. Without it, none of us would be here. 
One thing is explaining the "mechanics" of sexual intercourse (gay, lesbian 
or straight) and another totally different thing is to get to the tiniest 
bits of information about it. I think that what Diana meant is that she 
doesn't want to get into the "tiny details".
(When explaining straight sex, for example, there's a difference between 
explaining what goes where and what happens with the egg and how it's 
fertilized and explaining what exactly is foreplay, sexual arousal and all 
the other intimate details that have to do with sex).


Diana:
>Why would I voluntarily tell my son everything I know about sex before he's
>ready to hear it?  Overloading kids with info they are not ready for is not
>the way to explain sexual feelings and intercourse to a child.


John:
Oh, honestly, nobody's suggesting that. And your use of "overloading"
perpetuates a commonly-held Anglo-American perception that children are
ignorant.


Me:
I don't think so. I agree with Diana that there are levels of information 
(as I said earlier) that children are capable of handling, and that there 
are details that would overwhelm them, if explained too early.

For example: Imagine that you want to further your child's sexual education 
by watching TV. One thing would be to watch with him (or her, for the sake 
of the argument it's a "he", ok? :)) an educational program about sex and 
about how babies are born and how there are some men who don't find women 
all that attractive and prefer other men and how women sometimes prefer 
living with other women instead with other men. That is one thing, and is 
perfectly acceptable. Or watching movies that approach the sex issue (gay, 
straight etc) in a mild manner (such as that videoclip that has been running 
online a while ago about those two boys that play soccer and end up kissing 
each other in the middle of the field. Sorry for the poor example, but that 
is what comes to my mind at this moment). Another, totally different thing 
would be to put that kid in front of the TV and watch a pornographic movie 
with him.


John:
Studies show that in countries where love, sexual feelings and
intercourse are explained by various degrees at an age-appropriate level
without acute societal embarrassment, children make more stable, rational
and informed decisions about their own lives and sex lives.


Me:
No argument here...


John:
And, honestly, it's not *hard* to explain love to a kid. As an educator, I
have to do so frequently. To a kid from a two-parent home, I would say "You
know how mummy and daddy love each other? Well, those two men love each
other the same way." Obviously, to a kid whose parents are not living
together, I would adapt the reference to one of a common societal reference
point: "You know how Shrek and Princess Fiona love each other?"
<snip>


Me:
Explain the concept of love using the concept "love"? That's not such a good 
way of explaining anything....

Kid: "Mummy, what is 'Tall'?"
Mom: "Well, sweetums, you know how daddy is tall?"
Kid: "Yeah."
Mom: "That's what tall is."


Diana:
>[2] My son represents the 'everychild' who isn't being watched over by a
>parent.


John:
Yet, despite attempting to distance yourself from 'everychild', you
nonetheless take offence at others commenting on the fact that this
'everychild''s situation is *not* a recommended one:


Diana:
>I don't know if any of you have children, but I should tell you
>right up front that insulting a mother by telling her she must be a
>bad parent who lets her kids run rampant on the internet reading
>whatever they want is *extremely* loaded and offensive.


John:
Barb wrote, using language which implies that you *are* supervising your
child:

(Barb:)
>if you are not supervising your child's internet use, that is a decision 
>that
>you might need to reexamine



Me:
"if you are *not* supervising..." (emphasis mine)
How does it imply that "you *are* supervising your child" (emphasis John's)?


John:
and I wrote, using language which again, implies your responsible parenting:

>But surely, as a responsible parent, you monitor your nine year old's 
>internet
>usage, and thus the point about children being disturbed by material, of
>whatever nature, is rather moot?

You wrote:

(Diana:)
>The majority of parents are just not ready to explain to their child how 
>gay
>sex 'works' exactly in context with his favorite fictional HP characters.


John:
See above. Once again, you equate gay people with sex, sex, sex. The
majority of parents *should* be ready to explain to their child how love
works.


Me:
I don't think so. Personally, I know that the gender of the person is really 
not so important if I love him/she/it. But there are those that their 
partner's gender is an important issue. So yes, it *does* have to do with 
sex.
And I can see her point. If the kid doesn't see Harry and Ron (for example, 
don't throw any rotten tomatoes at me, guys ^-^) as being in love with each 
other (as in romantic love), then why should the parent say "Hey, kiddo, you 
know Harry and Ron? I think they might be gay and love each other." So ok, 
it opens your mind and helps you accept other POV's, but really, I'll give 
here one example from my own personal live:
I used to live in the neighborhood that's at the other side of the city, and 
beyond that there was noting but sand. I used to enjoy walking my dog late 
at night there because it is deserted, and there's no one there. One day, a 
car drives by and stops next to me and the people inside tell me "Why are 
you walking all alone in this part of the neighborhood for? Don't you know 
that you can get assaulted and raped here?" Since then, I never ventured out 
that far. I used to pass near the construction sites, where bedouins and 
foreign workers worked without the slightest fear (and they even invited me 
for a cup of tea once after mentioning that the bedouin tea is my favorite). 
So I knew since then that it's dangerous to be there at such a late hour of 
the night, and yes, it did open my mind, but it damaged me more than it 
helped me.


John:
A loves B like C loves D. Simple. Even the Kinsey study shows that
50% of males experience homosexual attraction in their lives. 10% show
exclusively homosexual attraction.
<snip>


Me:
Yes, very simple. I would make sure that instead of overloading the kid with 
information, I would make sure that he knows that he can come to his parents 
for answers to his questions.
Everything has it's own time and pace. Same goes for kids' development. Just 
because a child can divide and multiply at an early age far beyond what is 
"average" in his age group, doesn't mean that you have to bombard the kid 
with university-level (or high-school level) mathematics, equations 
functions and whatever.


John:
Wouldn't you as a parent want to make sure your child knows that if he is
one of those kids, you will love him unconditionally? I certainly would. And
I certainly wish that my parents had assured me of that love before I came
out to them last year, though they did so afterwards  it would have made
the whole process a lot less stressful.

If you're interested, check out PFLAG.org, the Parents, Families and Friends
of Lesbians And Gays. The Unitarian Universalist church also has some useful
suggestions at UU.org.



Me:
Just showing a bit of close-mindedness here, *hides behind keyboard for fear 
of rotten eggs being thrown at her* <g>.
Just as it is difficult hearing, or accepting the fact that your parents "do 
it" (I'm 22, my father passed away a few months ago and my mom talks about 
how lovely he was, and how she loves him so much, and all the "gory" details 
of their life as a couple and for her sake I try to swallow all the "ewwwww" 
that I feel, and it's an ongoing process and I hope that I shall be 
enlightened soon *g*, but that doesn't mean that it doens't squick me), it's 
difficult to accept that your kid "does it". You accept it because you don't 
have a choice, because he's after all only human, and that's a part of 
humanity that he will eventually have to live with on a daily basis, but 
it's not easy listening to those details. Even though I just read Olympia's 
Shining Prince series, which is wonderful, and I found myself fantasising 
about 60 yr olds Draco and Harry sleeping in their canopy 4-poster bed and I 
just got all warm and fuzzy inside.
Hypocrisy? Maybe. But I'm only human. I accept my parents more romantic 
aspects of their relationship, but it's not something I enjoy openly 
discussing, and is one thing that I would love to just shut my ears and hum 
loudly when they used to talk about it.


Diana:
>In my son's case <snip> I would worry about him losing the image of HP he
>currently enjoys and that we share talking about together.


John:
By the words you use, you imply that you *value* the lack of gay characters
in HP, and that your HP experience would be denigrated by their inclusion.

There are no words to express how strongly I reject that value.


Me:
I think that Diana wants her kid to enjoy HP without getting into all the 
"is he gay or isn't he?" discussions, which I sometimes wander if those 
things are really relevant to the development of the story or if they are 
just facts (like the fact that Padma and Parvati Patil are twins) that 
happen to be or not to be and will not make any substantial difference 
plot-wise.


Diana:
>Other kids may get negative ideas and reinforcement of
>free-floating stereotypes about gay people or hetero people that
>take much work to undo by their parents.


John:
By the words you use, you imply that you believe that slash fanfiction
conveys negative ideas of people. In particular you imply that you believe
that slash fanfiction conveys negative ideas of non-gay people. I find this
amusing, because you state that you are not a slash reader.

As someone who's actually *read* slash, I disagree utterly.


Me:
I also read slash, and enjoy it tremendously, and there *are* slash fanfics 
that do give the wrong impression of what being gay is all about. Keep in 
mind what someone here wrote that the vast majority of the slashers are 
young women, who don't have first-hand experience on what being homosexual 
is all about. They do see it on TV, read in books, fanfics, etc, etc, but no 
first-hand experience, so they probably might not always get it right.


Diana:
>I don't know if any of you have children, but I should tell you
>right up front that insulting a mother by telling her she must be a
>bad parent who lets her kids run rampant on the internet reading
>whatever they want is *extremely* loaded and offensive. If John
>thinks terms such as 'normal' and 'homosexual' are offensive to gay
>people, he's only hit the tip of the iceberg of offensiveness when
>insulting someone's parenting skills in such an offhanded manner;
>even more so when all these downright rude accusations and
>inferences come from misreading my original post and filling in gaps
>with their own conjectures.


Me:
Everyone have words that squick us (Have I said that already? probably in a 
previous post, or else I'm repeating someone else's words).
There's a limit to how much politically-correct a person can get. So what? 
next time I want to describe myself as short and fat (which I am), would I 
say "Horisontally and vertically challenged"? No, I'd say "I'm fat and 
short" which is the best way to describe me.
What exactly should be said instead of "homosexuals"? 
"Men-Who-Prefer-Other-Men-Not-Only-As-Sex-Partners-But-Also-As-Lovers-or-Boyfriends-Because-Being-A-Homosexual-Is-Not-Only-About-Sex-But-Also-About-The-Deep-Emotional-Bond-That-The-Couple-Share"?
*regains breath*


John:
The impression formed by others of your views is based on the language you
use and cultural reference points of you and others. If you wish to be
perceived differently, use different language or attempt to understand
others' cultural reference points.


Me:
This is the language that she knows. I'm sure that there will be people 
offended by what I say (John or Diana included), and I apologize, but it's 
difficult to please everyone and write something that is *not* influenced by 
what I know and by the language that I use. Those are Diana's preconceptions 
about the world, and that is the language and the vocabulary that she uses.
Judging her by her use of words would be like judging a 18th century white 
male because he says "nigger" instead of "african american" or "black" or I 
don't know what term is acceptable nowadays. That was the way that they used 
to speak, even if it is extremely racist and against black people, and even 
if they had nothing against black people and were completely liberal and 
non-racist.


Diana:
>I'm going to try to give all of you the benefit of the doubt, but as
>I'm very offended right now, I'm trying as hard as I can to be civil
>and clear in my responses.
>
>I started this thread by saying that I don't read slash pairings and
>didn't get their appeal.


John:
The words you use also made me perceive that you equated the appearance of
gay people with sex. I  and others  found this offensive.


Me:
Maybe Diana ran into the wrong fics. When I went through the internet 
looking for Star Trek fanfics, I read one (or rather, started reading one), 
and I got so squicked that I closed the Explorer and never ventured back 
into Star Trek fanfiction ever again. The story, btw, was about Counselor 
Troi going at it very enthusiastically with 2 or 3 male crew members that 
were at that time on the bridge of the Enterprise, and all because of the 
telepathic influence of a nasty bug-eyed alien.
My luck in the HP fandom was that the first fic I ever read was such a 
sweet, romantic, with sex refered to only as two 15-year-old *boys* would 
feel attracted to each other, it was very innocent and beautiful that it 
didn't scar me and I felt secure enough to venture out further into the 
fandom. Later I ran into some very unpleasant fics, but that didn't scare me 
because I knew there were also very good fics here.


John:
Moreover, the replies pointed out that without explaining the rationale
behind your views, your views appear to be an irrational dislike of slash:
homophobia.


Me:
I don't think she's homophobic.
She just doesn't see what I (and you and a lot of other people) find 
appealing in slash fics. She thought it over and decided that she prefers 
het fics, thank-you-very-much.


Diana:
>I have *never* once said that anyone who writes or reads slash fanfic based 
>on
>the HP characters is evil, deranged, or anything even remotely like that.
><snip>  I do not think ill of people who read and write slash fiction, 
>whether
>gay, hetero, bi or alien hybrid.  I even said that I wholeheartedly support
>the fans of slash to read it, write it, wallpaper their walls with it,
>whatever, but that I would not be reading it myself because I like the HP
>characters as based in my visions from reading and re-reading all four HP
>books four or five times.


John:
Your words remind me of the argument that many people in the gay community
hear all the time: "I don't hate gays, but I WISH they wouldn't keep rubbing
my nose in it/being so *blatant*/kiss in *public*!". Non-gay people display
their love all the time: in movies, on the street, in books. Why shouldn't
gay people?

Your words once again make me think that you value a lack of gay people in
the HP world. I object to that thought.


Me:
Forgive me for putting words into your mouth, John, but this is what I get 
from your words:
You want so much to be considered equal in society (or perhaps you want that 
for all gay population), that you don't think for a second about those that 
have nothing against homosexuals and lesbians, they simply don't want to be 
gay.
Just another small local example:
There are many neighborhoods that are populated almost entirely by orthodox 
jews. At the entrance to those neighborhoods there is usually a sign that 
says "please don't enter with your car in the Shabbat (that is, Saturday, 
which for Jews is like Sunday for Christians) or in Holy days (such as 
Passover or Hannuka, Jewish Hollidays)."
Their POV is that since they are the majority in that neighborhood, they 
have the right to live as they want there, and those who enter that 
neighborhood should respect that.
Those of us who are anti-religious opression would say "hey, I'm a citizen 
of this country, this car belongs to me, I shall do whatever I want" and 
they drive on Friday night exactly in front of the local synagogue. Just 
because.
Ok, so accepting others means not only that straight people have to accept 
gay people, but also the other way around.
The "rubbing our noses in it" goes both ways.


Diana:
>Don't any of you have friends who are into hobbies that you find
>strange, boring or maybe even bizarre?  And when that friends talks
>about his hobby to you, after a while, you just shake your head,
>smile and say, "As long as you're having fun.  I don't get it,
>myself, but whatever."  That is how I feel about slash fiction.  I
>can't see the appeal, but if it's your thing, go to town.


John:
Your comparison of hobbies with a sexual orientation is as offensive to me
as it is ludicrous.


Me:
I don't think it's ludicrous. The idea is the same. It's all about taste and 
personal preference. She would have proven the exact same point if she were 
to discuss personal pizza topping preferences (some people like pepperoni, 
others like anchovi, and i saw in the pizza place menu that they have a 
pineapple topping option, so *some* people might like it), or about anything 
else that people get to have a personal preference in.


John:
Diana, nobody ever killed a Trekkie for being a Trekkie.


Me:
I hope not, or else it would make going to Star Trek conventions too risky 
for me.
And talking about offensive terms, I find "Trekkie" and "Trekker" very 
offensive. It's just that people do tend to go into Trekkie/Trekker wars 
about which is better and who is more "devoted" and "fanatic" and who "has 
been in the fandom since the first time they aired the "The Cage" pilot 
episode of Star Trek - The Original Series. Very tiresome and totally 
irrelevant.


John:
I cannot recall an instance in which a model railroader ever murdered a
war-gamer.

People do kill people for being gay. THAT is why homophobic attitudes and
comments are not acceptable. THAT is why there are so many people in this
forum leaping up in defence of slash as a representation of gay issues. THAT
is why I take offense.


Me:
Well, they kill each other because they tend to get personally offended 
about such things, and people take themselves too seriously and don't always 
know how to take things in the proper proportion (like me getting ickled by 
the use of the word "Trekkie", I'm imprevious to these patterns of behavior 
too). It's important to lighten up a bit, guys...


Diana:
>My son does *not* wander the internet unsupervised and he has never
>visited a fanfic site in his life.


John:
So...what's the big problem? Why take offense from Barb's and my comments
when we *specifically* assumed that you did *not* let your son do those
things?


Me:
Barb didn't, to judge from your quote of her response to this thread.


Diana:
>The point of my first post was that, unlike my son, many children do
>not have a parent watching over them to see what they are surfing on
>the internet.  I represented my son as an 'everychild' who could
>find a fanfic site and end up with an unwantedly changed vision of
>the HP characters.  Don't children have the right to maintain their
>own vision of the HP characters from reading the books without
>interference from fanfics that bring in ideas they may not
>understand, want or even be able to handle yet?


John:
Of course they do. But children also have the right to *develop* their own
vision of the HP characters from reading the books *and input* from fanfics,
discussion groups and other sources that bring in ideas they are able to
understand.


Me:
I agree on this one too, but that doesn't mean that the kids have to be 
exposed to a (het *or* gay) sex-fest in a fic that was poorly rated.


Diana:
>The problem we are going to have with coming to an agreement on this is 
>that I
>feel that several fanfic writers and defenders feel it's okay to muddle 
>with
>others' personalized and internal images of the HP characters, even 
>children's
>views of the characters, because it will cause "growth", "acceptance",
>"tolerance" and "understanding".


John:
Yes! I do think that! I think that posing questions about the nature of
love, or the nature of war, or the nature of interpersonal relationships,
WILL cause all four of those things! That's what fanfiction  and book
discussion  is about! It's taking situations and characters about whom we
have preconceived notions and examining those preconceptions in the light of
differently-interpreted information. Information about characters and the
wizarding world from others' cultural and personal perspectives,
<snip>


Me:
One thing is list discussions, slashy fanfics with tactful fade-to-black 
scenes or not-so-graphic descriptions of sexual intercourse
and another thing is R or NC-17 rated (don't know which means the explicit 
sort of fics).


Diane:
>That's a load of horse manure.  Children don't suddenly gain blazing
>insight into acceptance of other's differences because of reading a
>fanfic posted on some website.


John:
No, but they might be forced to *think* about these issues, and make
decisions for themselves. To consider the parallels between racism and
homophobia.


Me:
Forced to think about racism and homophobia? I think that this issue is only 
brought up when the other characters start to act homophobic or racist 
towards other characters. If everyone accept the gay couple, then that issue 
is mute. There is no homophobia and there is no racism. 100% acceptance is 
usually not part of reality, but it does make the kid (or the reader in 
general) consider how to accept those issues better.
if they read a slash fanfic, or a fanfic featuring interracial pairings, it 
would make them consider how plausible it is related to Canon, or, if they 
still go "ewwwww" when they see mommy and daddy kissing, then they might 
think in terms of how "ewwwww"-y the fic is.
A kid that isn't brought up to hate homosexuals, or different people than 
himself in general will not hate them, It's as simple as that.


Diana:
>I would not like to see unsupervised children stumble upon a slashy
>or sex-filled [whether gay or hetero] fanfic of their favorite
>fictional characters because the fanfic site was poorly organized,
>incompletely or inaccurately labelled or as easy to get past as
>lying to an onscreen question.


John:
By the words you use, you imply that you would not like to see unsupervised
children read, or talk about, any gay people, even in G-rated situations.


Me:
No, she said "slashy or sex-filled [whether gay or <hetero>]" (emphasis 
mine). I agree with Diane.
I don't think she would want her kid reading R rated fics just because there 
are not accurate warnings next to the fic's link.
Would you, as an openminded parent, John, want your kid to stumble into and 
read a fic with a very graphic and explicit description of a sex scene? I 
know I wouldn't.


John:
I object to that in the strongest possible terms. Why should children always
be supervised when reading, talking or thinking about people of a different
sexual orientation  or skin color, to draw a parallel?


Me:
Children should be supervised period. Sexual orientation, skin colour, 
religion doesn't matter.
You don't want the kid reading a description of a violent rape scene, 
because you want to explain what rape is on your own terms, and not on the 
author's terms, which might not include 4 letter words, and might accomodate 
the explanation to fit the kid's emotional level and his capability to cope 
with things.


Diana:
>If my son is any example, when he's logging on to some favorite children's
>sites or playing a computer game, a screen will sometimes pop-up that asks 
>him
>if he wants to go to go to site b or if he wants to type in his name and he
>will have to punch a button that says "YES" on it to get to the games.  
>I've
>seen these sites and games and they are set up exactly the same way as the 
>"no
>one under 18 warning screen" described on this board that simply asks if 
>the
>kid is over 18; just press the yes button to continue, in other words.  It 
>has
>now become automatic for my son to hurriedly press yes to continue on to 
>his
>game.  He stopped actually reading those screens a long time ago.  I have 
>no
>doubt that many kids are the same and would just click right through that
>screen without thinking about it or reading it.


Me:
Which just proves the point that a "are you older than 18" yes-no question 
is just a formality, and is just for the author to wipe their hands off 
responsibility, which in fact, isn't theirs. It's the parent's 
responsibility to watch out for what the kid does online (or anywhere else 
in life).


John:
So, lying, in violation of a Terms of Use contract that you and/or your son
have undoubtedly agreed to to register with these sites or games, is okay?


Me:
Please don't tell me that you think that everywhere, 15 year-olds (or 
younger) are *not* pretending to be older just to be able to see what's in 
*that* particular site. That would be extremely naive of you, John.


Diane:
>The truth is parents can't watch their kids every single minute.  If we 
>could,
>there would be no child abductions, child sexual abuse or accidental 
>deaths.


John:
I am astounded. Do you not know the statistics that the VAST majority of
child sexual abuse is by an immediate family member who lives with the
child? And that, again, the VAST majority of child abductions are carried
out by one of the child's parents?


Me:
You know that that's not what she meant. She's talking about the "normal" 
(and I think here it's a consensus, right?) parents who would never sexually 
abuse or abduct their children.


Diana:
>The truth is that some parents will not want their children to be exposed 
>to
>gay pairings, regardless if actual intercourse is or is not described, 
>between
>characters the children and the adults have grown to love in a image that
>doesn't fit that scenario.  That doesn't make the parents homophobes.


John:
Honestly, what other motivations could the parents have than homophobia? So
far, nobody has been able to quote a *rational* explanation for this
theoretical parental dislike. Again, if it is not a rational dislike, it is
an irrational dislike. A phobia. Homophobia.


Me:
That is the truth, no matter how high minded you, me, Diana or anyone else 
might be about it. Most people wouldn't want their kids to be gay. they want 
their kids to be what they consider "normal" (ducks behind keyboard again 
*g*) marriage life with a member of the opposite sex.


Diana:
>I'm called a homophobe by others simply because I have no desire to read 
>slash
>fiction based on HP characters.


John:
I refer to my previous paragraph.


Me:
Me too.


Diana:
>I went to a fanfic site to see how the organization was since so many
>responses to my original post went out of their way to tell me that there 
>was
>no way I could "stumble" upon stuff I didn't want to read and everything 
>was
>so properly labelled and clear that I must be an idiot if I did end up 
>reading
>something that tainted my personal image of the HP characters.  The main 
>page
>had a bunch of blurbs for new fics in no particular grouping or in any way
>sorted.


John:
Actually, they are grouped by length and theme. As it says on FA's main
page, Schnoogle (green) is for novel-length fics. Riddikulus (gold) is for
humor. AstronomyTower (red) is for romance. TheDarkArts (blue) is for
everything else, including angst, darkfic, etc.
<snip>


Me:
That is only on Fiction Alley. I don't know all fanfic sites out there, and 
I don't presume to have facts about it, but I assume that not all fanfic 
sites are organized like that. Besides, the only way to see exactly the 
notes on rating, pairings etc of the fics in FA is actually opening the 
story. That is very tedious and for me, at least, i dont find it all too fun 
to open each author's page, and then the story and then the first chapter 
just to see if it's a pairing or a rating that I'd like to read.
In Schnoogle, for example, under the writer's name there's a list of the 
fics s/he wrote. when you click on the author's name, you get the link to 
the various stories s/he wrote. Each with a short, and usually very vague 
description of the fic. If you're lucky, it might say something about the 
prominent ship. If not, there's still one more link to open.
then you click on the story, and you get the chapters page. only by the time 
you click on a chapter and starting to read it you realize what rating and 
ship you ran into.


Diana:
>What I actually found was blurbs written in such a way as to be
>quite memorable [so you'd want to read the story, obviously] and
>they were able to bring forth instantaneous unwelcome images.


Me:
Exactly.


John:
As both Heidi and Barb have pointed out, FA's "blurbs" are checked for
rating (PG-13). If you are concerned about "unwelcome images", whatever you
define them as, then I suggest that you don't read fanfiction. Simple as
that.


Me:
Well, that was uncalled for, John. I could easily say, well, if you don't 
want to be offended by people who don't make such a great hoo-haa over all 
the gay issues that you probably do (otherwise you would have let Diana's 
post glide by), even though they might be as un-homophobes as possible, then 
you should stay off places that you might hear such things.


Well, just as a closing note, each person is entitled to his or her own 
opinion about things. Acceptance means not only straight people accepting 
gay people (as relevant to this issue, but is right with everything else 
too), but also gay people accepting that there are those that might feel 
uncomfortable with homosexuals.

No one is immune from getting insulted. The trick is trying to figure out 
when it is worth making a storm in a cup of water and when it is not. Life 
is too short to make a big deal out of every single thing. Thick skin is a 
must when you want to participate in a society that has more than one person 
in it.

Oh, and one last thing.
What, exactly, is so wrong with letting people know in advance which pairing 
and which rating the fic is?
Unless you're a Switzerlander (which in fandom someone explained to me means 
that you ship everything and everyone), you would want to know what ship it 
is, because there might be slash ships that you think are squeaky, or you 
just might be in the mood of reading a McGonnagal/Winky angsty fic instead 
of your usual cup-of-tea (if angst!McG/W *isnt* ;-), and knowing in advance 
what ship is the fic might save you a lot of link-opening...


Just my 15 knuts,
Meira (who is *so* going to be oh-so-late to her class...)

_________________________________________________________________
The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*  
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From blessedbrian at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 14 13:52:32 2003
From: blessedbrian at yahoo.com (Brian Cordova <blessedbrian@yahoo.com>)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 13:52:32 -0000
Subject: Banned Books and Lesbians
In-Reply-To: <BA48A7C9.5481%john@queerasjohn.com>
Message-ID: <b014n0+sbjl@eGroups.com>

  

  Personally, I'm just Brian (who just happens to be gay and learning 
to laugh at words that used to scare me).

  Me:-)

  "Those who can laugh at themselves will never cease to be amused."

  --author unknown

  "Fear of a name increases fear of the thing itself."
  --Professor Dumbledore



> 
> Me:
> 
> >> "gay" should be used only as an adjective. "Gay" as a noun -
 "gays gathered
> >> for a demonstration" - is not acceptable."
> 
> Annemehr:
>  
> > This is *completely* new to me.  I'll take it to heart.  BTW, you 
seem
> > to allow for the use of "lesbian" as a noun, am I correct?
> 
> Yes. I'm quite prepared to be corrected by a lesbian, but AFAIK and 
IIRC
> "gay men" and "lesbians", "gay people", "he is gay", "a gay man" 
and "a
> lesbian" are fine, but "a gay" (a gay *what* is the 
question) "gays" and
> "the gays" are offensive to some. "She is lesbian" sounds silly 
and, the
> right tone of voice, offensive. Many lesbians prefer the group 
term "gay men
> and lesbians".
> 
> I suppose it's the similar problem that I face as a white person 
when
> referring to black people: African-American? Afro-Caribbean? People 
of
> color? Black? black? (lowercase intentional) Brown? I tend to stick 
with
> African-American when referring to black Americans, Afro-Caribbean 
when
> referring to black Brits, and then I keep my antennae out for 
reactions,
> corrections or language used by the other person, adapting mine to 
suit.s
> 
> Personally? This is *really* nitpicky, which is why I didn't bring 
it up
> earlier. I don't use "gays" and I do usually point out that people 
find it
> offensive. However, I find "homosexual" more offensive, simply 
because it
> reduces gay people to sex, sex, sex. Despite the userinfo page on my
> LiveJournal. *grin*
> 
> --J
> 
> ______________________________________
> 
> Queer as John || john at q...
> 
> AIM, YM & LJ @ QueerAsJohn || www.queerasjohn.com
> 
> "There's nowt as queer as folk."  --English proverb
> ______________________________________




From huntleyl at mssm.org  Tue Jan 14 20:04:58 2003
From: huntleyl at mssm.org (Laura Ingalls Huntley)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 15:04:58 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Responses to [perceived] assaults... (it's long, sorry ... or maybe not *g*)
References: <F267tthHbCHUjlW983o000061fc@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <003901c2bc08$370aa540$3301a8c0@huntleyl>

> Diana:
> >Why would I voluntarily tell my son everything I know about sex before
he's
> >ready to hear it?  Overloading kids with info they are not ready for is
not
> >the way to explain sexual feelings and intercourse to a child.
>
> John:
> Oh, honestly, nobody's suggesting that. And your use of "overloading"
> perpetuates a commonly-held Anglo-American perception that children are
> ignorant.

I agree with John here.  My own mother's opinion, which I share, is that
kids should be told about sex when they ask.  I did so at age 6 (whereas my
younger brother was 10 or 11).  I remember at this time having at least
vague idea about sex (the "what goes where" part, if nothing else) from
basic playground gossip.  My first point is that adults simply don't give
kids credit for being aware of sex and sex-related issues.  My (much)
younger sister is in first grade now, and crushes and boys and Britney
Spears's sex appeal (*much* to my dismay) are a big part of her and her
peers' lives.  I don't doubt that she has heard the word "sex" before, and
at least knows enough about it to dissolve into a fit of giggles when it is
mentioned.

My second point is that you *should* educate your children about sex as much
as possible.  Because, a) they're already learning about it from possibly
undesirable sources and b) it's just the right thing to do.  Okay, perhaps
part b isn't so much a reason as an opinion, but think about it.  Not
talking about sex with kids will very likely lead to feelings of curiosity
(who knows where they're going to go/what they're going to do to satisfy
this curiosity), apprehension, embarrassment etc.  These feelings are really
what makes a lot of kids have unhealthy idea/feelings/reactions to sex,
which leads to unhealthy attitudes and actions when they grow up.  The
misinformation, lack of information, and social stigmas about sex that they
will pick up if you don't step in to explain will be *very* dangerous down
the road, especially when they hit puberty.  How will they know, for
example, that their urge to masturbate isn't sinful or dirty (as, I promise
you, they will have inferred from their peers by then)? It's not enough to
just mention things such as this to them when the time comes, as society's
often damaging ideas will be ingrained in them by then.

If you're uncomfortable talking to your child about sex (which is entirely
understandable, although probably also a symptom of our culture's ridiculous
attitude about sex) there are a number of very good books for all age
ranges.  I'm not suggesting that you take you five or six year old aside and
barage them with information (you would probably fail miserably anyway, they
have very short attention spans -- esp. concerning things they don't
understand), but if they ask, tell them.  When they stop seeming interested,
stop.  I understand that you might feel that they are asking these questions
because of exposure to undesirable things (NC-17 fanfics, for example), but
the truth is, they're going to get some information *somewhere*...from their
friends, TV, movies, internet...*somewhere*.  Remember that a little
information is a dangerous thing.

And by all means, make sure they *at least* have some good literature on it
before they hit puberty.

And, really, if you do happen to try to explain something out of their
league, they won't be "overwhelmed" or damaged in any way.  When you try to
explain something to a kid that can't grasp a concept, they just lose
interest.  I remember my mother trying to show me what a condom was/did at
age 6 (because I asked) and I just couldn't get past the fact that it looked
like a balloon (I actually made her blow it up for me).

> John:
> Studies show that in countries where love, sexual feelings and
> intercourse are explained by various degrees at an age-appropriate level
> without acute societal embarrassment, children make more stable, rational
> and informed decisions about their own lives and sex lives.

Exactly what I was trying to say, only much more eloquent and succinct.  I
am Christian and attended a Christian grade school and it pains me to see my
friends making bad decisions about sex now because their parents thought it
was wrong to educate them.  When sex is shameful, desirable, and mysterious
all at once, teens have a tendency to do it without talking about it (which
leads to unprotected sex or improperly used protection as well as emotional
damage and confusion), do it for the wrong reasons (peer pressure, SO
pressure, etc.), and not even know that it could be better.  It's the job of
the parent, IMO, to make sure their kid can make rational, emotionally and
physically healthy, and mature decisions about sex and sex related things .
A good way to ensure this is to educate, educate, educate - it not only
combats ignorance, it knocks sex off its dark-shrouded pedestal.  IMO, sex
has no business being secretive and forbidden.  Except in trashy romance
novels.

Meira:
> I used to live in the neighborhood that's at the other side of the city,
and
> beyond that there was noting but sand. I used to enjoy walking my dog late
> at night there because it is deserted, and there's no one there. One day,
a
> car drives by and stops next to me and the people inside tell me "Why are
> you walking all alone in this part of the neighborhood for? Don't you know
> that you can get assaulted and raped here?" Since then, I never ventured
out
> that far. I used to pass near the construction sites, where bedouins and
> foreign workers worked without the slightest fear (and they even invited
me
> for a cup of tea once after mentioning that the bedouin tea is my
favorite).
> So I knew since then that it's dangerous to be there at such a late hour
of
> the night, and yes, it did open my mind, but it damaged me more than it
> helped me.

You see that as *damaging*? Let's bring your example full-circle here.  A
child is being subjected to something that is known to be harmful (whether
it be wandering alone at night or society's assumption that homosexuality is
not normal) and you see it as better that they continue to be subjected to
it on the basis that they're happier that way and bad things have yet to
happen?  Isn't it a basic parental responsibility to keep their children
from harm?

> Diana:
> >Other kids may get negative ideas and reinforcement of
> >free-floating stereotypes about gay people or hetero people that
> >take much work to undo by their parents.
>

So the way to combat these negative ideas is to ban knowledge of the
subjects altogether?




> Me:
> Forgive me for putting words into your mouth, John, but this is what I get
> from your words:
> You want so much to be considered equal in society (or perhaps you want
that
> for all gay population), that you don't think for a second about those
that > have nothing against homosexuals and lesbians, they simply don't want
to be
> gay.

What does wanting to be gay have to do with the inclusion of gay characters
in books?  I don't think John wants Diane to become a lesbian or encourage
her child to be homosexual.  He just objects to her implication that having
gay characters (or even the possibility of gay characters) in the HP novels
would somehow damage her and her child's reading experience.

On the other hand, I go to a "magnet" school -- which is basically a public
boarding school for brains.  And here, I do perceive a bit of a social
pressure to be at least bisexual...*at least* experimentative.  However, I
think this comes from the philosophy that at least *I* have, which is that
anyone can be attracted to anyone if they have an open mind.  Futhermore,
most of us come from very socially restrictive schools (my old friends would
gag for hours if they saw two little girls holding hands...which was esp.
horrible for me, as I mainly express/get affection through physical means),
and I think the social pressure to do some exploring of your sexual
orientation is actually quite helpful -- we've all been pushed in the other
direction for so long, some people need a little nudge to get going.  In the
long run, I see everyone evening out to the place where they most belong,
based on their own feelings.


> John:
> Your comparison of hobbies with a sexual orientation is as offensive to me
> as it is ludicrous.
>
>
> Meira:
> I don't think it's ludicrous. The idea is the same. It's all about taste
and
> personal preference. She would have proven the exact same point if she
were
> to discuss personal pizza topping preferences (some people like pepperoni,
> others like anchovi, and i saw in the pizza place menu that they have a
> pineapple topping option, so *some* people might like it), or about
anything
> else that people get to have a personal preference in.
>
>

Eep.  Being gay isn't like choosing a pizza topping.  Many people feel that
there is absolutely no choice involved at all. (personally, I think it's not
cut-and-dried either way...and, in any case, each person/case is different)
However, I think both you and John misinterpreted what Diane was saying --
she meant that reading slash was a personal choice, not being
homosexual...they are completely different things.  I know *a lot* of
heterosexual women who enjoy slash immensely.



> John:
> Diana, nobody ever killed a Trekkie for being a Trekkie.

On a completely random tangent, my old neighbors had a Star Trek console
painted in their basement.  *nods*

> John:
> Of course they do. But children also have the right to *develop* their own
> vision of the HP characters from reading the books *and input* from
fanfics,
> discussion groups and other sources that bring in ideas they are able to
> understand.
>
>
> Meira:
> I agree on this one too, but that doesn't mean that the kids have to be
> exposed to a (het *or* gay) sex-fest in a fic that was poorly rated.

*growls* But then your argument is against NC-17 fics and not slash at all!
Slash does NOT EQUAL SEX.


> Diana:
> >The problem we are going to have with coming to an agreement on this is
> >that I
> >feel that several fanfic writers and defenders feel it's okay to muddle
> >with
> >others' personalized and internal images of the HP characters, even
> >children's
> >views of the characters, because it will cause "growth", "acceptance",
> >"tolerance" and "understanding".
>

So...you're saying...no fanfiction should be allowed at all?  I'm a bit
confused.

> Me:
> No, she said "slashy or sex-filled [whether gay or <hetero>]" (emphasis
> mine). I agree with Diane.

Okay.  She said slashy OR sex-filled.  So, she objects to all slash AND
sex-filled het.

> Diana:
> >I went to a fanfic site to see how the organization was since so many
> >responses to my original post went out of their way to tell me that there
> >was
> >no way I could "stumble" upon stuff I didn't want to read and everything
> >was
> >so properly labelled and clear that I must be an idiot if I did end up
> >reading
> >something that tainted my personal image of the HP characters.  The main
> >page
> >had a bunch of blurbs for new fics in no particular grouping or in any
way
> >sorted.
>

If you actually tried to read one of these fics, there would be a) a screen
asking if your were of age if it were R-rated and b) a heading on the actual
fic giving rating, summary, and possible pairings.  FA doesn't need anything
stronger than these warnings because they don't even post NC-17 fics.

> Meira:
> That is only on Fiction Alley. I don't know all fanfic sites out there,
and
> I don't presume to have facts about it, but I assume that not all fanfic
> sites are organized like that.

As someone who has actually gone *looking* for NC-17 fics (both het and
slash) I assure you that all of the sites I found (even the personal ones)
explicitly warned for both sex scenes and slash.  I'm sure there are those
out there that *don't*, but as I did not find any, I assume they are a small
minority.

> Diana:
> >What I actually found was blurbs written in such a way as to be
> >quite memorable [so you'd want to read the story, obviously] and
> >they were able to bring forth instantaneous unwelcome images.

As FA does not allow for explicit sex scenes, and there's no way they would
allow something explicit in a blurb, I must assume that these "unwelcome
images" came from reading something that mentioned a same sex pairing.  If
you get offended by the words "Draco is torn between loyalty to his father
and his love for Harry" or even "Draco and Harry get it on with a pair of
handcuffs and a whip" -- well, perhaps you *do* need to learn to be a bit
more open-minded.

Meira:
> Well, just as a closing note, each person is entitled to his or her own
> opinion about things. Acceptance means not only straight people accepting
> gay people (as relevant to this issue, but is right with everything else
> too), but also gay people accepting that there are those that might feel
> uncomfortable with homosexuals.

No.  Gay people definitely do *not* have to accept or respect that.  It's
prejudice.  People have a *right* to hate homosexuals and people of color
and whomever else they feel -- however, it IS prejudice, and saying that
John should be okay with people who look down on him for being a gay person
is like saying that the Jewish people should have respected Hitler's POV.

Also, in closing...I wanted to ask John about the term "homosexual".  It is
not considered derogatory at all at my school -- but we definitely aren't
representative of any other society than our own (this is what happens when
you stick 150 teenagers in a small dormitory and cut them almost completely
off from the rest of the *world*).  Logically, I would have thought that
"homosexual" would be *less* offensive than "gay", as homosexual just sort
of explains the nature of one's sexual orientation (like a medical or
scientific term, really...as opposed to heterosexual) and gay is slang.

Laura





From Audra1976 at aol.com  Tue Jan 14 19:59:23 2003
From: Audra1976 at aol.com (Audra1976 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 14:59:23 EST
Subject: "Mudblood" vs. "Muggle"
Message-ID: <84.73197a2.2b55c61b@aol.com>

In a message dated 1/14/03 2:58:44 AM, bboy_mn at yahoo.com writes:
"Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)
<catlady at w...>" <catlady at w...> wrote:
<< I was torn between a small smile of laughter and a 
> small moue of disapproval.  >>
>
> Mudblood is a statement of someone's derogatory and insulting opinion. 
While we can use it because it is a fake word about fictional people,
it is still not an true or accurate description, or a proper
description, and it is derogatory and insulting.  >>


How bout if I just shorten it to 'Bloods?  <JK>  Alright, alright, alright, 
fine.  I was only trying to lighten things up.  I know we all take the books 
seriously here, but I have to say, this is an awakening.  I'm frankly a 
little shocked that people feel strongly about this fictional insult.  Once 
again, I was only trying to be humorous, not insulting or derogatory, but 
apparently I'm the only person who finds any humor in this debate.

So "Muggleborn" is the term of choice then?  Well then what about the word 
"Muggle" anyway?  It's a slang term, and I say that speaking as a 
MAGICALLY-CHALLENGED human being myself, I find this word to be derogatory.  
We don't use it to refer to ourselves.  Only wizards use it to refer to us, 
the unmagical masses.  What exactly does it imply?  "Muggle."  It certainly 
does not sound like anything pleasant, does it?  Yet we all throw that term 
around on the list constantly without even blinking.  So how about it, all 
you opposers of the word "Mudblood"?  Will you stand up for us "Muggles" as 
well?

Audra



From timregan at microsoft.com  Tue Jan 14 20:28:02 2003
From: timregan at microsoft.com (Tim Regan <timregan@microsoft.com>)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 20:28:02 -0000
Subject: chaperones, sex in films, parental responsibilities, and the trio
In-Reply-To: <003901c2bc08$370aa540$3301a8c0@huntleyl>
Message-ID: <b01rsi+9gkt@eGroups.com>

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Y tu mam? tambi?n (And Your Mother Too) spoiler space
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Hi All,

We've recently been chatting about the rights and wrongs of the 
trio's parents giving up their day jobs to become chaperones, and 
about how parents should deal with their kid's exposure to 
portrayals of heterosexual and homosexual sex. Well, over on HPFGU-
Movie in message 4955 Anne U points to an interesting piece about 
Alfonso Cuar?n 
<http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hollywoodreporter/columnists/film/a
rticle_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1791930> which ends by saying:

But have any of the "Potter" kids actually seen "Mama"? "I think one 
of them has," says Cuaron, but he's not saying which one.

That's intriguing. The trio are older than my kids (they are now 12, 
13, and 14 while mine are 8 and 9), so I may be out of touch with 
what that age group watch, but it doesn't seem suitable for 12-14 
year olds. The film is rated R here in the US and 18 back in the UK. 
And it is rude. There are sex scenes between the two teenage boys 
and their girlfriends, a really gross masturbation scene, sex scenes 
between the two teenage boys and the older married woman they hit 
the road with, and a sort-of-sex-scene between the two teenage boys 
at the end. Perhaps the trio have grown up quicker being in the 
movie business, perhaps the parents involved felt it was OK for 
their child, or perhaps the parents don't know.

(It reminds me of once when I was 13/14 (ish) and I wanted to stay 
up to see the Tubes perform on the Old Grey Whistle Test. Dad said 
OK as long as he stayed up to watch it with me and check that it was 
suitable. I was so relieved that Dad fell asleep during Match of the 
Day because the lead singer, Fee Waybill, arrived on stage with his 
member sticking out from his lurex costume. That would have been an 
embarrassing father / son moment!)


Cheers,


Dumbledad.


PS The rating for "Y tu mam? tambi?n" does vary enormously country 
by country. IMDB lists them as: Argentina:18 / Brazil:18 / 
Canada:18A / Chile:14 / Finland:K-15 / France:U / Germany:16 / Hong 
Kong:III / Japan:R-15 / Netherlands:12 / Norway:15 / Portugal:M/16 / 
Spain:13 / Sweden:15 / Switzerland:16 / UK:18 / USA:R (cut version). 
France stands alone giving it the same rating as Disney's "Lilo & 
Stitch".








From john at queerasjohn.com  Tue Jan 14 20:48:59 2003
From: john at queerasjohn.com (Queer as John)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 20:48:59 +0000
Subject: Feeling Pretty and Witty but not Homosexual (was: response to,
	etc.)
In-Reply-To: <003901c2bc08$370aa540$3301a8c0@huntleyl>
Message-ID: <BA4A283B.55C5%john@queerasjohn.com>

I'd respond to Meira's points, but Laura did it wonderfully for me. *wink*

Laura Ingalls Huntley said:

> Also, in closing...I wanted to ask John about the term "homosexual".  It is
> not considered derogatory at all at my school -- but we definitely aren't
> representative of any other society than our own (this is what happens when
> you stick 150 teenagers in a small dormitory and cut them almost completely
> off from the rest of the *world*).  Logically, I would have thought that
> "homosexual" would be *less* offensive than "gay", as homosexual just sort
> of explains the nature of one's sexual orientation (like a medical or
> scientific term, really...as opposed to heterosexual) and gay is slang.

Well, this gets into the question of community dynamics and perceptions.
Many people believe that the gay community is more than just sex. It's about
a different way of life resulting from various influences, including shared
experience of the closeting process, coming out, homophobia, discrimination,
etc.. Hence the preference to use "gay" instead of "homosexual".

To some, "homosexual" carries flashbacks to the days before the 1973
declaration by the American Psychiatric Association that homosexuality was
not pathological. It's _clinical_. Hospital-like. Sterile.

Back in the early days of the gay rights movement, we were called
"homophiles". Now doesn't _that_ have some loaded meaning these days? The
word changed to "homosexual", probably as a result of the increased use of
the word "pedophile/paedophile", though I'm not too clear on the history
behind this.

I don't think that "gay" can be regarded as slang any more. It's used by the
BBC in their style guide, and that's usually regarded as a Slang Free Zone.

Did that help? Feel free to shoot back with questions.

--J

______________________________________

Queer as John || john at queerasjohn.com

AIM, YM & LJ @ QueerAsJohn || www.queerasjohn.com

"There's nowt as queer as folk."  --English proverb
______________________________________




From corsa808 at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 14 20:52:32 2003
From: corsa808 at yahoo.com (infiniT <corsa808@yahoo.com>)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 20:52:32 -0000
Subject: Life After Hogwarts
Message-ID: <b01tag+62f7@eGroups.com>

JKR states that she will not continue Harry & Co.'s adventures past 
Hogwarts. 

Now, I've been thinking about this a lot lately, and am beginning to 
realize that it might be hard to say goodbye to characters we will no 
doubt by then have grown to consider part of our lives (for those who 
don't already! 8~) )

I'm wondering if anyone else thinks it might be possible that we 
could see a continuation of the series; if not by some chance that 
JKR should change her mind, but possibly by ::gasp:: *a different 
author*??

This thought process begins because my hubby is one of the biggest 
Star Wars freaks around and he has a collection of books written by a 
few other people, that continue the saga past Episode VI. Some of 
them even deal with things that happened before, as long as they 
didn't have to do with the goings on in Episodes I-III. 
[Star Wars fans: please forgive my complete lack of knowledge on this 
as I prefer to give my hubby lots of room to do his various hobbies 
and try not to get too involved...you just sometimes can't help it! 
I'm sure there are a few people on this list who know more about this 
than I. I apologize for my ignorance.]

What I'm wondering is if we might see the same thing come from this 
series, should she really not continue "life after Hogwarts." I don't 
believe I'm alone in thinking I'd like to see what happens after 
Hogwarts--should Harry survive it, that is! ;~)  

Has this been discussed before? What is your opinion, lovely listers? 
Would you read it? I'm pretty sure I would! 

And on the same note:

The Star Wars novels had basically the same few writers; but I don't 
know if the authors are fanfic writers (who got published) or 
professional or both or what. If JKR decides to end the series, would 
she allow someone else(s) to continue? And if so, would it be people 
she or her publisher "hand picked," since these works would be 
published? Or possibly they would have people submit their own works 
and pick a few that she/they thought might continue with the same 
integrity (which could also be established contractually, I would 
think). 

[I'm assuming that if this (Life After Hogwarts) were to happen, the 
books would have the same integrity, and the characters would not 
change drastically (in the sense of how they were conceived, yet 
maintaining the fact that they evolve as people/characters tend to do 
over time).]  

I realize Potterverse was created by JKR as her own world and there 
may be a chance she would never let that happen.....but we're not 
finished with the series yet and who knows what might evolve between 
now and then? 

t
[who is basically just thinking out loud here and trying desperately 
to read something other than the heated-discussion-that-will-not-be-
mentioned...and who seems to be liking punctuation today!!! 8~) ]

p.s. I tried to search the archives, the main list, and the OT list 
to see if this had been brought up before but I didn't have much luck 
finding any results with the search words I was using! grrrr!!





From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk  Tue Jan 14 20:59:47 2003
From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 20:59:47 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Life After Hogwarts
References: <b01tag+62f7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3E247A43.000001.48795@monica>



-------Original Message-------

From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
Date: 14 January 2003 20:52:41
To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Life After Hogwarts

JKR states that she will not continue Harry & Co.'s adventures past 
Hogwarts. 

Now, I've been thinking about this a lot lately, and am beginning to 
realize that it might be hard to say goodbye to characters we will no 
doubt by then have grown to consider part of our lives (for those who 
don't already! 8~) )

I'm wondering if anyone else thinks it might be possible that we 
could see a continuation of the series; if not by some chance that 
JKR should change her mind, but possibly by ::gasp:: *a different 
author*??
<snipped>
t

I'm not actually betting on her sticking to that. Not to doubt her word or
anything but while some authors make statements like that and rigidly stick
to them others don't. I believe she firmly meant it when she said it but
whether after se's published book 7 she finds she can stick to it or whether
the characters keep yelling at her to write more (or she just realises how
much more money she could make) is not certain.

After all Conan Doyle didn't want to write any more Sherlock Holmes to the
extent wher e he killed him off ... and yet he still came back anyway. I
personally have trouble believeing that if Harry is still alive at the end
of book 7 that she won't at some point end up writing more. If i were her
(and believe me the books would turn out much differently if I were ... not
as well written though) I would be very very tempted to have Harry die
defeating Voldie, and not just die but be stopmed into a million pieces,
dying a death from which no-one could ever hope to resurrect him because
that's the only way I could stop writing about him. 
I can't think of any fantasy examples of authors having to kill characters
to end the series (although I'm sure there are many) but the writer of the
Morse books said he felt it was time for Morse to die because he wanted the
series to end and because Oxford now had a crime rate similar to NYC :)

K



From heidit at netbox.com  Tue Jan 14 21:02:03 2003
From: heidit at netbox.com (Heidi Tandy)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 17:02:03 -0400
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Life After Hogwarts
Message-ID: <mailman.21.1576049041.5361.hpfgu-otchatter@archive.hpfgu.org>

InfiniT wrote:
***
I'm wondering if anyone else thinks it might be possible that we 
could see a continuation of the series; if not by some chance that 
JKR should change her mind, but possibly by ::gasp:: *a different 
author*??***

Coincidentally enough, the fandom learned today that jkr has no problem with fans of the hp series writing fanfic that takes place in or uses characters from the Potterverse. So even if no official and authorised book is created by jkr's publishers, there will be fanfic taking place in the After Hogwarts timeframe. 

In fact, there already is. Paradigm of Uncertainty, and it's prequel A Sirius Affair, or Trouble in Paradise, or Song of Time - all on schnoogle.com - deal with the trio, and other canon characters, post-school-leaving. And there will only be more to come!

Heidi Tandy
Follow me to FictionAlley - Harry Potter fanfics of all shapes, sizes and ships - 7 sickles an ounce
http://www.FictionAlley.org 



From foxmoth at qnet.com  Tue Jan 14 21:22:48 2003
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999 <foxmoth@qnet.com>)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 21:22:48 -0000
Subject: Slash and parenting was Re: Responses to
In-Reply-To: <BA48A7C8.5481%john@queerasjohn.com>
Message-ID: <b01v38+ia2d@eGroups.com>

Diana> The truth is that some parents will not want their children 
to be exposed to gay pairings, regardless if actual intercourse is 
or is not described, between characters the children and the 
adults have grown to love in a image that doesn't fit that 
scenario. That doesn't make the parents homophobes.<<

John:

>>Honestly, what other motivations could the parents have than 
homophobia? Sofar, nobody has been able to quote a *rational* 
explanation for this theoretical parental dislike. Again, if it is
not a 
rational dislike, it isan irrational dislike. A phobia. 
Homophobia.<<

Me:
I think this is overstating the case. An irrational dislike is *not* 
the same as a phobia. A phobia is pathological. Furthermore I 
don't think that one can extrapolate from reading material to real 
life.

For example, I dislike the  Harry/Hermione pairing. I avoid it in 
fics because a) it doesn't turn me on, and it annoys me to "read 
diagonally" (what a wonderful phrase!) paragraphs of "pumpkin 
pie"  obviously intended for that purpose, and b) it reads OOC to 
me. Plenty of people have told me this is irrational <g>. 

I don't deny it, but I don't think it means I'm diseased. It doesn't 
carry over to real life, AFAIK. Many delightful people have real-life 
relationships very similar to the imagined H/H pairing and I don't 
avoid or fear them in any way. They just don't remind me of Harry 
and Hermione at all.

As for the parents' concern, if Diana  only knows what 
she could learn from the media, I'd bet that when she thinks of 
"gay pairings" in HP she means stories written by heterosexual 
women for the purpose of titillation, and face it, she wouldn't lose 
that impression by scanning the blurbs on FA. You don't need 
R-rated language to be suggestive.

 I know there are as many reasons to write slash as het and as 
many reasons to include a gay character as a straight one. Still, 
I have read many a fic which, though not at all explicit, has as its 
theme the progress of an irresistible physical attraction that 
sweeps everything out of its path.

Such fics, however valuable in themselves, might be a poor 
introduction to the topic of gay relationships, or any relationships, 
especially if you think they *should* be about more than sex, sex, 
sex. I can see where a parent might consider that unwholesome, 
especially when it involves characters which the parent has 
already encouraged the child to see as role models. If, as Diana 
might, you think that's what's out there, it's reasonable to be 
concerned. 

While gay characters are now an unremarkable  feature of 
mainstream fiction, I don't think that's true of mainstream 
children's fiction as yet (correct me if I am wrong.) Which means, 
sadly, that kids don't get a lot of countervailing imagery out there 
about wholesome gay relationships, and that could make HP 
slash,*as it is popularly conceived*, a  concern. I would like this 
very much to be a needless concern, but  insisting SLASH IS 
NOT SEX, while true, is not going to change anyone's mind.

Pippin 




From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 14 21:36:55 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve <bboy_mn@yahoo.com>)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 21:36:55 -0000
Subject: chaperones, sex in films, parental responsibilities, and the trio
In-Reply-To: <b01rsi+9gkt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b01vtn+ovfu@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Tim Regan <timregan at m...>"
<timregan at m...> wrote:
> 
> Hi All,
>
> ...edited...
> 
> Alfonso Cuar?n ... which ends by saying:
> 
> But have any of the "Potter" kids actually seen "Mama"? "I think one 
> of them has," says Cuaron, but he's not saying which one.
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> 
> Dumbledad.

bboy_mn:

At first it would seem obvious, but when you think about "Potter kids"
is somewhat ambiguous. He could have been talking about Sean
Biggerstaff or Chris Rankin (who work is a movie theater).

Having said that, I personally don't think it was. I think it was
probably Dan, who is extremely intelligent,articulate, and mature for
age 13. I could see his parents letting him see it. Perhaps with their
supervision. But how embarassing would that be, seeing a very overtly
sexual movie with your parents. Maybe his parents are cool enough that
it wouldn't be a problem.

Just one problem. The US rating R, means restricted unless accompanied
by a parent or guardian. In the UK, 18 means flatly no one under 18.
Maybe the theater made an acception for the famous Harry Potter and
his dad.

I don't think I really added anything to the discussion other than...
a thought or two.

Side Note: Notice that the Rating in Netherlands is 12. How cool are
those people?

bboy_mn






From timregan at microsoft.com  Tue Jan 14 22:01:51 2003
From: timregan at microsoft.com (Tim Regan <timregan@microsoft.com>)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 22:01:51 -0000
Subject: Slash and parenting was Re: Responses to
In-Reply-To: <b01v38+ia2d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b021cf+u03c@eGroups.com>

Hi All,

Queer as John <john at q...> wrote:
> Diana <dianasdolls at y...> said:
>
> > The truth is that some parents will not want their children to 
be exposed to
> > gay pairings, regardless if actual intercourse is or is not 
described, between
> > characters the children and the adults have grown to love in a 
image that
> > doesn't fit that scenario.  That doesn't make the parents 
homophobes.
> 
> Honestly, what other motivations could the parents have than 
homophobia? So
> far, nobody has been able to quote a *rational* explanation for 
this
> theoretical parental dislike. Again, if it is not a rational 
dislike, it is
> an irrational dislike. A phobia. Homophobia.

Let's get back to "actual intercourse". From a kid's perspective 
heterosexual and homosexual sex are very different (sorry about the 
clinical words). Why do adults have sex? In my experience there are 
a myriad of reasons including: expressing love to my partner, 
maintaining a loving relationship with my partner, as a vent for 
lust, and sometimes to make a baby. But when a young child asks 
about sex they are not asking "How will I physically express my 
feelings to my partner when I'm older", they are not asking "What 
should I do with my horny feelings", but they are asking "Where do I 
come from". When my kids stated asking these questions they first 
wanted to know in general terms, then my daughter wanted more detail 
on the birth process, and then they wanted the mechanics of the 
father's role in making a baby.

But that's probably a moot point, since I doubt parents use fan-fic 
for their kid's sexual education.


Cheers,


Dumbledad.


> Wouldn't you as a parent want to make sure your child knows that 
if he is
> one of those kids, you will love him unconditionally? I certainly 
would. And
> I certainly wish that my parents had assured me of that love 
before I came
> out to them last year, though they did so afterwards ? it would 
have made
> the whole process a lot less stressful.

Good advice, thanks.





From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 14 22:02:57 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve <bboy_mn@yahoo.com>)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 22:02:57 -0000
Subject: "Mudblood" vs. "Muggle"
In-Reply-To: <84.73197a2.2b55c61b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <b021eh+afoo@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Audra1976 at a... wrote:
> In a message dated 1/14/03 2:58:44 AM, bboy_mn at y... writes:
> "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)
> <catlady at w...>" <catlady at w...> wrote:
> << I was torn between a small smile of laughter and a 
> > small moue of disapproval.  >>
> >

> bboy_mn originally said: Mudblood is a statement of someone's 
> derogatory and insulting opinion.  ...edited..
> 

> Audra continues:
> 
> How bout if I just shorten it to 'Bloods?  <JK>  Alright, alright,
> alright, fine.  I was only trying to lighten things up.  ... ... ...
> apparently I'm the only person who finds any humor in this debate.
> 
> So "Muggleborn" is the term of choice then?  Well then what about 
> the word  "Muggle" anyway?  
> ...edited...
> 
> Audra

bboy_mn:

First, I hope I haven't put my foot in it again, and insulted someone
personally. I did point out that I was making a comment on the subject
in general.

Next... yes, I see the humor, and I feel some frustration. That's why
I pointed out several times that we are discussing a fake word from a
fictional world. So, let's skip the long drawn out analysis and look
at the fictional fake facts.

Muggle-born is a fact.

Mudblood is an insult.

Now, bearing that in mind, you are free to do whatever you want. But
the words do have a REAL fake fictional meaning, and I summarized it
in the most condensed possible way. The fake fictional words do have a
context, but at the same time if you get the context wrong, it pretty
hard to truly offend fake fictional people with a fake fictional world.

So make a choice and let's move on.

Muggle-
Someone suggested a while back in a somewhat fanficish post, that in
the US Muggles are called Mundanes. They are the common people, the
ordinary people, the regular people (must be all that fiber in their
diet). While both terms do have a 'less than us' quality to them, they
really only refer to the 'ordinary people'. Anything else comes from
the attitude of the speaker.

Back to humor-
When the discussion is forced to use phrases like "REAL fake fictional
meaning" and "fictional fake facts"; how can you not see the humor in
the discussion.

Just a few thoughts.

bboy_mn





From timregan at microsoft.com  Tue Jan 14 22:07:26 2003
From: timregan at microsoft.com (Tim Regan <timregan@microsoft.com>)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 22:07:26 -0000
Subject: chaperones, sex in films, parental responsibilities, and the trio
In-Reply-To: <b01vtn+ovfu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b021mu+9eb8@eGroups.com>

--- bboy_mn wrote: 
> Just one problem. The US rating R, means restricted unless 
> accompanied by a parent or guardian. In the UK, 18 means flatly no
> one under 18. Maybe the theater made an acception for the famous
> Harry Potter and his dad.

He (or she) may have seen it on DVD. That would imply either the 
very liberal parents option, a helpful older looking friend, or a 
rental shop assistant who didn't want to challenge a star.

Cheers,

Dumbledad.





From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 14 22:19:31 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve <bboy_mn@yahoo.com>)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 22:19:31 -0000
Subject: Life After Hogwarts
In-Reply-To: <b01tag+62f7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b022dj+t4hn@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "infiniT <corsa808 at y...>"
<corsa808 at y...> 

infiniT wrote:
> JKR states that she will not continue Harry & Co.'s adventures past 
> Hogwarts. 
> 
> ...MVE... ...Massive Vicious Edit...
> 
> t


bboy_mn:

Well, I'm going to stray from the topic ever so slighly, to promote
one of my own pet ideas.

I think JKR and her publishers should hold a contest to see who can
write the best HP fan fiction, then compile the best of the best in
various age catagories, and publish them in a book.

"The Best of Harry Potter Fan Fiction"

That would really bring a lot of attention to the HP book series,
would stimulate children all over the world to get off their butt and
excersize their brain, it may even be the push that takes some budding
young writer to fame and fortune. 

Sound to me like situation where everybody goes home happy. Not to
mention JKR and the publisher have one more excuse to cash in on Harry
Potter.

I LIKE IT!

bboy_mn





From abigailnus at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 14 22:26:05 2003
From: abigailnus at yahoo.com (abigailnus <abigailnus@yahoo.com>)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 22:26:05 -0000
Subject: Feeling Pretty and Witty but not Homosexual (was: response to, etc.)
In-Reply-To: <BA4A283B.55C5%john@queerasjohn.com>
Message-ID: <b022pt+g56e@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Queer as John <john at q...> wrote: 
> Well, this gets into the question of community dynamics and perceptions.
> Many people believe that the gay community is more than just sex. It's about
> a different way of life resulting from various influences, including shared
> experience of the closeting process, coming out, homophobia, discrimination,
> etc.. Hence the preference to use "gay" instead of "homosexual".

Has anyone here seen Tom Stoppard's wonderful play, The Invention 
of Love?  It's about the life of the poet A.E. Houseman, a deeply 
closeted homosexual (or gay man or however you would prefer me 
to refer to him) who was Oscar Wilde's contemporary.  It's all about 
one of the great dilemmas of life - is it better to play it safe or to take 
risks for a chance at love and happiness.  In this case the dilemma, of 
course, has to do with acting on one's sexual impulses in a time when 
homsexuality dared not speak its name.  (To Stoppard's credit, he 
doesn't give an easy answer, and is careful to show the price that one 
sometimes pays for taking chances.)  Stoppard ties this dilemma into 
the dychotomy of Houseman's life - on one hand he was a poet, a 
man used to expressing his emotions - and on the other hand he was a 
textual scholar, who actually flunked out of Oxford because he was 
more interested in the linguistic origin of the Classics texts he was 
reading then in their content and meaning.

The reason I'm telling you all this, other than that The Invention of 
Love is a brilliant, heartbreaking play which you should try to see if the 
opportunity presents itself, is that there's a beautiful scene in it that 
this discussion has reminded me of.  The elderly Houseman meets a 
friend from his youth (the play is a memory play that takes place 
after Houseman's death, so the friend is still a young man) whom we 
had previously seen trying to chat Houseman up.  The friend tells 
Houseman that he's become a member of a group of like-minded 
individuals, and that they've even come up with a name for
 themselves - homosexuals.  The friend asks him what he thinks of 
the word.

"I think it's an abomination!" Exclaims Houseman, "It's half Latin and 
half Greek!"

Abigail
Now wondering if you don't have to have seen the play to get how 
funny this is - when I saw it this line brought the house down. 





From mb2910 at hotmail.com  Tue Jan 14 22:59:00 2003
From: mb2910 at hotmail.com (meira_q <mb2910@hotmail.com>)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 22:59:00 -0000
Subject: Responses to [perceived] assaults... (hope it's a bit shorter this time *g*)
In-Reply-To: <003901c2bc08$370aa540$3301a8c0@huntleyl>
Message-ID: <b024nl+6vt8@eGroups.com>

OK, this time I'm doing a bit more snipping ;)
It seems that people have managed to misunderstand me as well *sigh* 
that's what happens when you belong to a species of people who are 
not telepaths ;-)

> > John:
> > Oh, honestly, nobody's suggesting that. And your use 
of "overloading"
> > perpetuates a commonly-held Anglo-American perception that 
children are
> > ignorant.


Laura: 
I agree with John here.  My own mother's opinion, which I share, is 
that kids should be told about sex when they ask.  
<snip>
My first point is that adults simply don't give kids credit for being 
aware of sex and sex-related issues.
<snip>
My second point is that you *should* educate your children about sex 
as much as possible.  Because, a) they're already learning about it 
from possibly undesirable sources and b) it's just the right thing to 
do.
<snip>
Not talking about sex with kids will very likely lead to feelings of 
curiosity (who knows where they're going to go/what they're going to 
do to satisfy this curiosity), apprehension, embarrassment etc.  
These feelings are really what makes a lot of kids have unhealthy 
idea/feelings/reactions to sex, which leads to unhealthy attitudes 
and actions when they grow up.
<snip>


Me:
I totally agree on this, *but* I still think that there is such a 
thing as information overload. Learning about sex should be a natural 
process as is learning to walk or talk, and IMHO, also learning to 
read.
If your 4 year-old asks you how babies are born will you really 
explain all about erections, the period, foreplay etc, or will you 
explain the "what goes where" version in terms that the kid can 
understand? (not to mean that kids are stupid, but just that they 
will get the answer for their question in a way that they will 
understand).

Laura:
If you're uncomfortable talking to your child about sex (which is 
entirely understandable, although probably also a symptom of our 
culture's ridiculous attitude about sex) there are a number of very 
good books for all age ranges.


Me:
Oh, please don't patronize me. One thing is being embarassed about 
thinking of your parents having sex (which I admit to feeling that), 
and another totally different thing is overcoming that sort of 
embarassment to being able to talk openly to the kid.
And I do agree on giving them a book, that is appropriate for their 
level of understanding (again, not because of stupidness, but because 
of the same reason you won't explain math in university terms to a 6 
year-old).


Laura:
I'm not suggesting that you take you five or six year old aside and 
barage them with information (you would probably fail miserably 
anyway, they have very short attention spans -- esp. concerning 
things they don't understand), but if they ask, tell them.  When they 
stop seeming interested, stop.

Me:
That is exactly the point that I'm trying to get across.
And if they are getting bored, it's probably a sure sign that the 
parent has to change tactics, or vocabulary, and explain things not 
as in when parents say "choo-choo" to mean train, but somewhere 
between that and the language-level required for a dissertation ;-).

Laura:
I understand that you might feel that they are asking these questions 
because of exposure to undesirable things (NC-17 fanfics, for 
example), but the truth is, they're going to get some information 
*somewhere*...from their friends, TV, movies, 
internet...*somewhere*.  Remember that a little information is a 
dangerous thing.


Me:
Well, it is difficult to create a sterile enviroment for them, and 
not too desireable, but at this point they should be comfortable 
enough to know that they can come to their parents with any question 
and know that they are going to get the answer that they were looking 
for, and not a "choo-choo" version, and neither a dissertation level 
of information (well, depending on their age).
You should always adapt the information to the one who will get it. 
For example, you will get nowhere if you try to explain what "pink" 
is to someone who was born blind.


Laura:
And by all means, make sure they *at least* have some good literature 
on it before they hit puberty.


Me:
Of course. Definitely.


Laura: 
And, really, if you do happen to try to explain something out of their
league, they won't be "overwhelmed" or damaged in any way.  When you 
try to explain something to a kid that can't grasp a concept, they 
just lose interest.
<snip>


Me:
They will get bored, and frustrated at the fact that they don't 
understand what you try to explain to them, and causing your kid to 
lose interest in your explanation is a sure way to make him not want 
to go to you for further explanations (like when my dad tried to 
explain something in math for me when I was 16. I was so bored, I 
kept nodding off, and I swore that I would never ask help from my dad 
again, even though he was an engineer, and I didn't know anyone who 
was better at math stuff than him, simply because he bored me with 
his explanations).


> > John:
> > Studies show that in countries where love, sexual feelings and
> > intercourse are explained by various degrees at an age-
appropriate level
> > without acute societal embarrassment, children make more stable, 
rational
> > and informed decisions about their own lives and sex lives.
 

Laura:
> Exactly what I was trying to say, only much more eloquent and 
succinct. I am Christian and attended a Christian grade school and it 
pains me to see my friends making bad decisions about sex now because 
their parents thought it was wrong to educate them.  When sex is 
shameful, desirable, and mysterious all at once, teens have a 
tendency to do it without talking about it (which leads to 
unprotected sex or improperly used protection as well as emotional 
damage and confusion), do it for the wrong reasons (peer pressure, SO
pressure, etc.), and not even know that it could be better.  It's the 
job of the parent, IMO, to make sure their kid can make rational, 
emotionally and physically healthy, and mature decisions about sex 
and sex related things .
A good way to ensure this is to educate, educate, educate - it not 
only combats ignorance, it knocks sex off its dark-shrouded pedestal. 
IMO, sex has no business being secretive and forbidden.  Except in 
trashy romance novels.


Me:
I totally agree on this one. Ignorance is bad.


> Meira:
> > I used to live in the neighborhood that's at the other side of 
the city, and beyond that there was noting but sand. I used to enjoy 
walking my dog late at night there because it is deserted, and 
there's no one there. One day, a car drives by and stops next to me 
and the people inside tell me "Why are you walking all alone in this 
part of the neighborhood for? Don't you know that you can get 
assaulted and raped here?" Since then, I never ventured out that far. 
I used to pass near the construction sites, where bedouins and 
foreign workers worked without the slightest fear (and they even 
invited me for a cup of tea once after mentioning that the bedouin 
tea is my favorite).
So I knew since then that it's dangerous to be there at such a late 
hour of the night, and yes, it did open my mind, but it damaged me 
more than it helped me.


Laura: 
> You see that as *damaging*? 


Me: 
Yes, I do.
I'm talking about an almost 20 year old person here, walking with a 
large dog.
I enjoyed the silence there, and since the people-in-the-car incident 
(however much they were right), I never got to enjoy my late-night 
walks with my dog. Walking in that area in broad daylight just isn't 
the same.


Laura:
Let's bring your example full-circle here. A child is being subjected 
to something that is known to be harmful (whether it be wandering 
alone at night

Me:
Who would be stupid enough to let their kids (specially if the kids 
are young) wander alone at night?

Laura:
or society's assumption that homosexuality is not normal) and you see 
it as better that they continue to be subjected to it on the basis 
that they're happier that way and bad things have yet to happen?  
Isn't it a basic parental responsibility to keep their children from 
harm?


Me:
It is a basic parental responsibility, yes. You say "A child is being 
subjected to something that is known to be harmful...or society's 
assumption that homosexuality is not normal". First of all, don't let 
John hear that *g*. Second, if to me homosexuality *is* a normal 
thing and I couldn't care less if my kid turned out to be gay (or 
lesbian), what would be wrong with that? (unless you are talking 
about kids getting raped here, in which case, I must remind you that 
rape has nothing to do with sexual tendencies.)


> > Diana:
> > >Other kids may get negative ideas and reinforcement of
> > >free-floating stereotypes about gay people or hetero people that
> > >take much work to undo by their parents.


Laura:
> So the way to combat these negative ideas is to ban knowledge of 
the subjects altogether? 


Me:
What does what Diana said have to do with Laura's words?


> > Me:
> > Forgive me for putting words into your mouth, John, but this is 
what I get from your words:
> > You want so much to be considered equal in society (or perhaps 
you want that for all gay population), that you don't think for a 
second about those that have nothing against homosexuals and 
lesbians, they simply don't want to be gay.


Laura: 
> What does wanting to be gay have to do with the inclusion of gay 
characters in books?


Me:
Nothing, but the way that John was speaking his mind made me think 
that his opinion of being straight is totally wrong. My idea of John 
is that he's "straightophobe", if such a thing exists.


Laura:
I don't think John wants Diane to become a lesbian or encourage her 
child to be homosexual.  He just objects to her implication that 
having gay characters (or even the possibility of gay characters) in 
the HP novels would somehow damage her and her child's reading 
experience.


Me:
There's a difference between thinking "But (male character) and 
(other male character) are simply *not* shippable, but I can see how 
(male character no. 3) and (male character no. 4) might work out" and 
between thinking "Any straight couple is wrong, everyone should be 
gay" and thinking "any gay character is wrong, everyone should be 
straight".


Laura:
On the other hand, I go to a "magnet" school -- which is basically a 
public boarding school for brains.

Me:
Where do you put the rest of your bodies when the brains are 
studying? ^-^


Laura:
And here, I do perceive a bit of a social pressure to be at least 
bisexual...*at least* experimentative.  However, I think this comes 
from the philosophy that at least *I* have, which is that anyone can 
be attracted to anyone if they have an open mind.  Futhermore, most 
of us come from very socially restrictive schools (my old friends 
would gag for hours if they saw two little girls holding 
hands...which was esp. horrible for me, as I mainly express/get 
affection through physical means), and I think the social pressure to 
do some exploring of your sexual orientation is actually quite 
helpful -- we've all been pushed in the other direction for so long, 
some people need a little nudge to get going.  In the long run, I see 
everyone evening out to the place where they most belong, based on 
their own feelings.


Me:
Sexual exploration and experimentation shouldn't happen because of 
peer pressure. Nothing should happen because of peer pressure. Where 
are your brains when it comes to that? (refrains from using the 
old "if everyone will jump off a bridge will you jump off it as well" 
phrase)


> > John:
> > Your comparison of hobbies with a sexual orientation is as 
offensive to me as it is ludicrous.


> > Meira:
> > I don't think it's ludicrous. The idea is the same. It's all 
about taste and personal preference. She would have proven the exact 
same point if she were to discuss personal pizza topping preferences 
<snipping my own comment>


Laura:
Eep.  Being gay isn't like choosing a pizza topping.  Many people 
feel that there is absolutely no choice involved at all. (personally, 
I think it's not cut-and-dried either way...and, in any case, each 
person/case is different)

Me:
If being gay or straight or bi isn't about personal taste and 
preference, then what *is*?
Be it genetics, personal choice or whatever you'd like to think makes 
someone gay or straight or bi, it *is* what you prefer. It's who you 
are personally attracted to.


Laura:
> However, I think both you and John misinterpreted what Diane was 
saying --
> she meant that reading slash was a personal choice, not being
> homosexual...they are completely different things.  I know *a lot* 
of heterosexual women who enjoy slash immensely.


Me:
I am a heterosexual woman and I enjoy slash immensely...
*waves various slashy ship flags* ^-^.


Laura:
On a completely random tangent, my old neighbors had a Star Trek 
console painted in their basement.  *nods*


Me:
Ooohhhhh.....
I'm planning on befriending an artist who would be willing to paint 
the Enterprise, or the Voyager on my wall *g*.
Am planning, one day, having a Star Trek room, with one of those TNG 
sofas, and my book collection displayed, and having my own Trek 
uniform, but I'm getting off-topic here.


> > John:
> > Of course they do. But children also have the right to *develop* 
their own vision of the HP characters from reading the books *and 
input* from fanfics, discussion groups and other sources that bring 
in ideas they are able to understand.


> > Meira:
> > I agree on this one too, but that doesn't mean that the kids have 
to be exposed to a (het *or* gay) sex-fest in a fic that was poorly 
rated.


Laura:
*growls* But then your argument is against NC-17 fics and not slash 
at all!


Me:
Of course. Did you think I was against slash? I love slash...


Laura:
Slash does NOT EQUAL SEX.


Me:
I know that. I've read many slashy fics that didn't have the 
slightest bit of sex in them.


> > Me:
> > No, she said "slashy or sex-filled [whether gay or <hetero>]" 
(emphasis mine). I agree with Diane.


Laura:
Okay.  She said slashy OR sex-filled.  So, she objects to all slash 
AND sex-filled het.


Me:
AARRGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH.....
(sorry)
OR is *not* the same thing as AND.

 
 
> Meira:
> > Well, just as a closing note, each person is entitled to his or 
her own opinion about things. Acceptance means not only straight 
people accepting gay people (as relevant to this issue, but is right 
with everything else too), but also gay people accepting that there 
are those that might feel uncomfortable with homosexuals.
 
Laura:
No.  Gay people definitely do *not* have to accept or respect that.  
It's prejudice.  People have a *right* to hate homosexuals and people 
of color and whomever else they feel -- however, it IS prejudice, and 
saying that John should be okay with people who look down on him for 
being a gay person is like saying that the Jewish people should have 
respected Hitler's POV.

Me:
I respect that there are many people who don't like me, or even hate 
me in this world (I'm Jew, I'm Israeli, both of those reasons are 
more than enough for people to hate me, methinks;)). That doesn't 
mean that I accept *violence*, genocide, murdering others, or 
enslaving them, or just being nasty to them because they are 
different or that I accept what the Nazis did to the jews in the 
Holocaust. 

John should really decide who's opinion matter to him.

Like a very wise person once said, "if you are holding out for 
universal popularity, I'm afraid you will be in this cabin for a very 
long time" ;-). (and I'm sure you all know where *that* quote came 
from ^-^).

Meira.

"I hear, I admit, but I have a voice too, and for good or evil mine 
is the speech that cannot be silenced."
~Heart of Darkness / Joseph Conrad~




From jenw118 at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 14 23:03:50 2003
From: jenw118 at yahoo.com (Jennifer R. Wilson)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 15:03:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Life After Hogwarts
In-Reply-To: <b022dj+t4hn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20030114230350.81602.qmail@web14002.mail.yahoo.com>


bboy_mn's idea:

bboy_mn:

Well, I'm going to stray from the topic ever so slighly, to promote
one of my own pet ideas.

I think JKR and her publishers should hold a contest to see who can
write the best HP fan fiction, then compile the best of the best in
various age catagories, and publish them in a book.

"The Best of Harry Potter Fan Fiction"

That would really bring a lot of attention to the HP book series,
would stimulate children all over the world to get off their butt and
excersize their brain, it may even be the push that takes some budding
young writer to fame and fortune. 

Sound to me like situation where everybody goes home happy. Not to
mention JKR and the publisher have one more excuse to cash in on Harry
Potter.

I LIKE IT!

bboy_mn

Now my response:

Brilliant idea!  Whether JKR knows it or not, she has inspired many people to get back into, or begin writing myself included.  This would be so great. Plus it could get even more budding authors published.

On a side note; Heidi, where did you hear that about JKR?  

Jennifer


 



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From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 14 21:38:49 2003
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd <jkusalavagemd@yahoo.com>)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 21:38:49 -0000
Subject: Slash and Fanfic (was: Responses to assaults on my parenting)
In-Reply-To: <avvo4n+m4pe@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b02019+6rt0@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "gwendolyngrace 
<gwendolyngrace at y...>" <gwendolyngrace at y...> wrote:
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Haggridd 
> <jkusalavagemd at y...>" <jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:
> 
>  
> > I would like to raise some counter-questions to the ones you pose:

[I snipped a long rather good argument by Gwen.  See her last post.]
> 
> But, I suppose that provides an answer to my question. I asked why 
> the change of orientation alone should mean a radical change in 
one's 
> opinion of the character.
> 
> Apparently, your answer is that you believe the change of 
orientation 
> automatically changes practically everything about the character.
> 
> Gwen

You missed the precise point of my counterquestion.  I do not 
trivialize coming-out either.  I also do not think some miraculous 
ransformation occurs at the moment of coming out-- of course, one is 
the same person, except for the news bulletin-- but I think it wrong
to liken sexual orientation to some kind of "Lego" block that doesn't 
affect anything else in one's makeup.  It is more like a leaven, 
which ends up running through everything that makes you "you" or me 
me".  If you accept that, an author who portrays a straight character 
exactly as a gay character, except for the label about orientation, 
is one with such lack of insight that I would not want to read 
his/her work no matter what the SHIPping.  So, I think we each may 
have misunderstood the other a little.

My opinion of said character would not necessarily change, but I 
would hope the character would be more vividly drawn than you suggest.

Haggridd





From huntleyl at mssm.org  Tue Jan 14 23:52:53 2003
From: huntleyl at mssm.org (Laura Ingalls Huntley)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 18:52:53 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Responses to [perceived] assaults... (hope it's a bit shorter this time *g*)
References: <b024nl+6vt8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00d801c2bc28$0de32960$3301a8c0@huntleyl>

Okay...this is mostly clarification ^_^.

> Meira:
> Oh, please don't patronize me.

I'm sorry, I wasn't being clear...I wasn't talking *at* you, in particular,
my "you" was intended to be general.  Really, you just happened to stumble
upon on of my pet peeves, my reaction wasn't a reply to you so much as a bit
of a rant.

> Me:
> They will get bored, and frustrated at the fact that they don't
> understand what you try to explain to them, and causing your kid to
> lose interest in your explanation is a sure way to make him not want
> to go to you for further explanations (like when my dad tried to
> explain something in math for me when I was 16. I was so bored, I
> kept nodding off, and I swore that I would never ask help from my dad
> again, even though he was an engineer, and I didn't know anyone who
> was better at math stuff than him, simply because he bored me with
> his explanations).

mmm...I don't know.  It's not really the same kind of unability to
understand.  A kid isn't really going to have a driving *need* to learn
about sex, the way you really *need* to learn math or you'll get a bad
grade.  If they *do* feel that strongly about learning about it, they
probably really need to know.  Anyway, bored with sex?  Seems like a good
attitude for children to have to *me* ^_~.

 > Laura:
> or society's assumption that homosexuality is not normal) and you see
> it as better that they continue to be subjected to it on the basis
> that they're happier that way and bad things have yet to happen?
> Isn't it a basic parental responsibility to keep their children from
> harm?
>
>
> Meira:
> It is a basic parental responsibility, yes. You say "A child is being
> subjected to something that is known to be harmful...or society's
> assumption that homosexuality is not normal". First of all, don't let
> John hear that *g*. Second, if to me homosexuality *is* a normal
> thing and I couldn't care less if my kid turned out to be gay (or
> lesbian), what would be wrong with that? (unless you are talking
> about kids getting raped here, in which case, I must remind you that
> rape has nothing to do with sexual tendencies.)

Okay.  You misunderstood me entirely here.  I was trying to say that
*society's assumption that homosexuality is not normal* was the harmful
thing.  Which it is.  What if a child has homosexual feelings and is never
told that it's okay?  I've *seen* people - even heterosexual ones - fret
themselves crazy about feelings that they don't understand, dreams about
sexual activity with a same-sex friend, etc.  Kids need to know that it
isn't shameful or wrong.  Unfortunately, our current culture will teach them
the opposite.

> Me:
> Nothing, but the way that John was speaking his mind made me think
> that his opinion of being straight is totally wrong. My idea of John
> is that he's "straightophobe", if such a thing exists.

I don't know John personally, but I severely doubt this.  For one thing, he
chooses to socialize in the HP fandom, which is mostly populated with
straight women.

> Me:
> There's a difference between thinking "But (male character) and
> (other male character) are simply *not* shippable, but I can see how
> (male character no. 3) and (male character no. 4) might work out" and
> between thinking "Any straight couple is wrong, everyone should be
> gay" and thinking "any gay character is wrong, everyone should be
> straight".
>

Obviously I cannot read Diane's mind, but from her posts, I understood that
she felt any same sex relationships in the Harry Potter world were not only
unfeasible, but the mere possibility of them would be detrimental to her
picture of the books.

> Me:
> Sexual exploration and experimentation shouldn't happen because of
> peer pressure. Nothing should happen because of peer pressure. Where > are
your brains when it comes to that? (refrains from using the
> old "if everyone will jump off a bridge will you jump off it as well"
> phrase)

No, the peer pressure is not strong enough to make anyone do anything, it's
just enough to nudge people out of their fear of considering homosexuality
as an option.  Like I said, I have yet to see anyone "jump off the bridge"
and engage in activity that they were not comfortable with.  It's just that
so many people come here conditioned to be afraid of being gay - afraid of
anyone even thinking they were gay.  It's not so much a pressure as
an...example.  Social powerful people here (i.e. non-first years) tend to be
very open about their sexual orientation.  Whether gay, bisexual, or
straight, they aren't ashamed, everyone respects them -- this shows people
who were priory too terrified of public opinion to even *look* at their own
feelings to realize that it's OK, and they won't be ostracized for anything.

Any pressure comes from the fact that impressionable firsties or followers
(this is a completely normal and acceptable social position, BTW...if we
were all leaders, things would get very confusing) want to *be* like these
people who everyone thinks is smart, funny, interesting, popular, etc.  And,
let's face it, most of them are bisexual.  A case in point, last year one of
my friends told me that he wished he was bisexual so that he would attract
more girls (it wasn't quite as offensive as it sounds, he was quite
obviously being facetious).  This year, however, he has apparently decided
that his *is* bisexual.  Is this a product of the attitude here that
"homosexuality and bisexuality are cool" or a personal discovery of his own?
I don't know.  Either way, he has yet to have a relationship with another
boy.

> Meira:
> Of course. Did you think I was against slash? I love slash...

It's just that you said you agreed with Diane, and Diane is against slash in
general.


> Laura:
> Okay.  She said slashy OR sex-filled.  So, she objects to all slash
> AND sex-filled het.
>
>
> Meira:
> AARRGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH.....
> (sorry)
> OR is *not* the same thing as AND.
>

I really don't see how you can read her statement (even without taking into
consideration all her other statements about slash) without getting the
information that she doesn't like slash in general and she doesn't like any
type of explicit sex scenes, even het ones.

mm..anyway, off to physics -- my study buddy is ready to kill me, I told him
I'd be down in the lounge about an hour ago.

Laura





From john at queerasjohn.com  Tue Jan 14 23:47:31 2003
From: john at queerasjohn.com (Queer as John)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 23:47:31 +0000
Subject: Gay genetics, slash and the right to hate
In-Reply-To: <b024nl+6vt8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <BA4A5213.5610%john@queerasjohn.com>

meira_q <mb2910 at hotmail.com> said:

> Me:
> If being gay or straight or bi isn't about personal taste and preference, then
> what *is*? Be it genetics, personal choice or whatever you'd like to think
> makes someone gay or straight or bi, it *is* what you prefer. It's who you are
> personally attracted to.

I am momentarily stunned at the lack of knowledge and understanding that
your words suggest. Sexual orientation is not a "preference". It is
determined before birth. It is genetic. There is utterly incontrovertible
scientific evidence for this. I'm happy to provide links and verification,
but I thought it was clear.

Does a black person *prefer* to be black? Does a person with brown hair have
brown hair because it's to his personal taste? No, we say, that's
ridiculous. Just like a black person cannot suddenly wake up and decide to
be white one day, an exclusively gay person cannot suddenly wake up and
decide to be straight or bi.

Being gay is not a lifestyle. It's not a choice. It's genetic. I probably
sound very vehement about this. That's because when people attempt to deny
gay people the same human rights as everybody else, they use words like
"lifestyle", "preference", "choice".

>>> Meira:
>>> No, she said "slashy or sex-filled [whether gay or <hetero>]"
>>> (emphasis mine). I agree with Diane.

>> Laura:
>> Okay.  She said slashy OR sex-filled.  So, she objects to all slash
>> AND sex-filled het.

> Meira:
> AARRGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH.....
> (sorry)
> OR is *not* the same thing as AND.

Meira, you stated that you come from Israel. I know that in general the
_sabra_ style of speaking is more blunt and straightforward than most other
English speakers, but please do try not to use words like
AARRGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH. They tend to raise the flame quotient in a post, which
sometimes leads to the Mods stepping in and stopping what can be interesting
discussions. The fact that you felt the need to insert "(sorry)" means that
you should probably have deleted the AARRGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH.

There is obviously an issue of communication here. Shouting
AARRGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH does nothing to attempt to remedy that issue. In fact,
usage of AARRGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH tends to turn discussions, whether on- or
off-line, into shouting matches.

I think the communication issue is that there are multiple clauses in
Diana's sentence, which in my experience can often cause confusion. Let me
try to explain.

If we remove the words "or sex filled [whether gay or hetero]" from Diana's
words, she says: "I would not like to see unsupervised children stumble upon
a slashy...fanfic." This is the objection which Laura and I are raising.
Diana refers NOT ONLY to keeping kids away from sex-filled fanfics BUT ALSO
from slash. This gives the impression that she equates slash with sex-filled
fanfics in terms of explicitness and undesirability. That is what we object
to.

> Me:
> I respect that there are many people who don't like me, or even hate
> me in this world (I'm Jew, I'm Israeli, both of those reasons are
> more than enough for people to hate me, methinks;)). That doesn't
> mean that I accept *violence*, genocide, murdering others, or
> enslaving them, or just being nasty to them because they are
> different or that I accept what the Nazis did to the jews in the
> Holocaust. 

That's nice. I don't accept that people have a valid right to hate me -- or
you -- on the basis of my genetic makeup. It's prejudice, plain and simple
-- judgment about me before encountering me by people who I have done
nothing to.

Do we accept "Jews are babyeating Zionists"? No. It's not true. How about "I
would keep my children shielded from stories about black people, because
black people are criminals"? No. Ditto.

Why then, do people accept "Gay people are a danger to children", or "I
would keep my children shielded from material with gay people in it, because
gay people encourage promiscuity and deviance from the norm."

I know, that's something of a strawman, but it's a relevant one.

> John should really decide who's opinion matter to him.

I don't understand this in the context. Can you explain, please?

--John

______________________________________

Queer as John || john at queerasjohn.com

AIM, YM & LJ @ QueerAsJohn || www.queerasjohn.com

"There's nowt as queer as folk."  --English proverb
______________________________________




From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 15 00:25:16 2003
From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent <psychic_serpent@yahoo.com>)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 00:25:16 -0000
Subject: Gay genetics, slash and the right to hate
In-Reply-To: <BA4A5213.5610%john@queerasjohn.com>
Message-ID: <b029pc+appo@eGroups.com>

meira_q <mb2910 at h...> said:
> > If being gay or straight or bi isn't about personal taste and 
> > preference, then what *is*? Be it genetics, personal choice 
> > or whatever you'd like to think  makes someone gay or 
> > straight or bi, it *is* what you prefer. It's who you are  
> > personally attracted to.

To which John responded:
 
> I am momentarily stunned at the lack of knowledge and 
> understanding that your words suggest. Sexual orientation is not 
> a "preference". It is determined before birth. It is genetic. 
> There is utterly incontrovertible scientific evidence for this. 
> I'm happy to provide links and verification, but I thought it was 
> clear.

[snip]

> Being gay is not a lifestyle. It's not a choice. It's genetic. I 
> probably sound very vehement about this. That's because when 
> people attempt to deny gay people the same human rights as 
> everybody else, they use words 
> like "lifestyle", "preference", "choice".

Thank you so much for that, John.  (I'd have said "thanks for 
setting the record straight" but I was already anticipating the 
groans from around the world <eg>...)

I find myself dealing with this issue all the time in my activism.  
Sometimes my husband and I have found it useful (since we're not 
doctors or biologists) to say to folks who naysay the genetics 
explanation, "Okay.  Say it IS a choice.  Why should this choice be 
any less protected than one's choice of religion?"  Because when it 
comes down to it, religion, which is a protected CHOICE in many (but 
not all) countries, is also the basis of a great deal of bigotry and 
oppression in this world.  Many people are attacked because of their 
choice of religion.  And yet, many people in the US, whose ancestors 
may have come here seeking religious freedom, fail to see the 
parallel.  

I firmly believe that scientists who have determined there is a 
genetic and/or biological basis to our orientations are correct, 
based in part on a great deal of anecdotal testimony available 
concerning the unchangeable nature of orientation (in addition to 
the more scientific studies).  I also believe, however, that those 
who claim orientation should not be protected under hate-crimes laws 
because they call it a "choice" should see the hypocrisy in their 
stand, when many of them are direct beneficiaries of their choice of 
religion being protected under law.

What it comes down to is that people hate people for many, many 
reasons, and if someone is attacked because they like ketchup, then 
the law should treat their attacker as someone who had a bias 
against people who like ketchup.  Whether or not liking ketchup is 
a "choice" should be of absolutely no consequence; only the fact 
that someone decided, based on THAT criteria, to target someone and 
create another crime victim.  Unfortunately, as long as the law 
isn't constructed this way, and as long as opponents of including 
sexual minorities in hate crime laws claim they shouldn't be 
protected because it is a "choice," people will continue to believe 
that they can attack sexual minorities with impunity, and they will 
end up receiving far milder penalties (if the police make any effort 
at all to apprehend them) than if they were attacking someone for 
their religion--which really IS a choice.


--Barb

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent
http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb

   




From rvotaw at i-55.com  Wed Jan 15 01:29:34 2003
From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 19:29:34 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: chaperones, sex in films, parental responsibilities, and the trio
References: <b01vtn+ovfu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00bf01c2bc35$90152a70$0c9fcdd1@RVotaw>

bboy_mn wrote:

>Having said that, I personally don't think it was. I think it was
>probably Dan, who is extremely intelligent,articulate, and mature for
>age 13. I could see his parents letting him see it. Perhaps with their
>supervision. But how embarassing would that be, seeing a very overtly
>sexual movie with your parents. Maybe his parents are cool enough that
>it wouldn't be a problem.
>
>Just one problem. The US rating R, means restricted unless accompanied
>by a parent or guardian. In the UK, 18 means flatly no one under 18.
>Maybe the theater made an acception for the famous Harry Potter and
>his dad.

And considering that Dan is an only child, those type tend to "grow up" faster.  (I should know!)  Besides that, I remember last year one of his favorite films (and number one on his Christmas wish list) was "The Royal Tenenbaums," which is also rated R.  Though it's got a UK rating of 15, not 18.  What does that mean though?  No admittance under 15?  Since he's still not 15 (and was then 12), and didn't yet have the DVD of it?  Could've had the video and wanted to replace it with the DVD I suppose . . ..

Richelle


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From urbana at charter.net  Wed Jan 15 04:14:29 2003
From: urbana at charter.net (Anne <urbana@charter.net>)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 04:14:29 -0000
Subject: chaperones, sex in films, parental responsibilities, and the trio
In-Reply-To: <00bf01c2bc35$90152a70$0c9fcdd1@RVotaw>
Message-ID: <b02n75+bc5i@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Richelle Votaw" 
<rvotaw at i...> wrote:
> And considering that Dan is an only child, those type tend to "grow 
up" faster.  (I should know!)  Besides that, I remember last year one 
of his favorite films (and number one on his Christmas wish list) 
was "The Royal Tenenbaums," which is also rated R.  Though it's got a 
UK rating of 15, not 18.  What does that mean though?  No admittance 
under 15?  Since he's still not 15 (and was then 12), and didn't yet 
have the DVD of it?  Could've had the video and wanted to replace it 
with the DVD I suppose . . ..
>
Let's not forget that immediately previous to filming HPPS/SS, Dan 
performed in the R-rated spy thriller "The Tailor of Panama" (which I 
may have to rent sometime just to see him <g> though I am a sucker 
for John LeCarre' stories). Though I did read online somewhere that 
Dan has not actually seen the movie, presumably only the "rushes" of 
the scenes in which he performed. But yes, he does strike me as quite 
mature (and definitely self-possessed) for his age. Given his poise 
and how rapidly he's, uh, growing up, it's sometines difficult to 
remember that he really is only 13 1/2 years old...

Anne U
(constantly reminding self of that fact ;-)





From dianasdolls at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 15 04:45:37 2003
From: dianasdolls at yahoo.com (Diana <dianasdolls@yahoo.com>)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 04:45:37 -0000
Subject: Response to fanfic/slash/sex debate 
Message-ID: <b02p1j+t4nn@eGroups.com>


>I wrote:
> > bboy_mn jumps on the same wagon with both feet:
> > >>If the problem is your kids reading my stories, then the 
problem is YOU. If your kids are reading racist literature then  
> > >>problem is YOU. If you kids are read about bomb making then 
the problem is YOU. It's not my job to supervise your kids. 
 
> bboy_mn replied:
 It IS the parent's responsibility to supervise their kids both
> generally and specifically. That is a general fact. A general fact
> who's existance in no way implies that you DO NOT supervise your
> children. How does saying children need to be supervised imply 
that I
> think you do not supervise yours? You may have inferred that, but I
> don't see that I implied that. At least, not when you apply my
> statements to the subject in general. In fact, your orginial post
> indicates that you specifically do control your children's internet
> use, but you are not all parents in general. Again, we must sort 
out
> what is general and what is specific.

Now me:
Sorry.  I have been so bombarded with responses asking me why I even 
read fanfic and why I participate on the HP4GUPS discussion board at 
all - just because I do not want to read HP fanfics, including slash 
or sex-filled fanfics that interfere with my personal version of the 
Potterverse.  Can you tell I've gotten rather touchy?  The fact that 
many of those same people responded have totally ignored the fact 
that I *don't* read fanfics and have stated it several times is 
getting really annoying.  
Discussing an HP character is not the same as immersing yourself in 
someone else's personal vision of the Potterverse through their 
fanfic.
 
> bboy again repies:
> Again... is that a mis-statement? I think not. The obvious solution
> is, if I don't like Buffy, then I shouldn't read Buffy. You also
> failed to include the part were I said "You have every right not to
> 'get it'. That is your priviledge.". 
> Some people attacked you as homophobic for not 'getting it' when it
> comes to slash. I tried to say that making that choice is not
> homophobic but the logical choice and a choice that is your
> priviledge. I was defending you, your rights, and your choices. 
That's why I gave the Buffy example. We all have likes and dislike, 
we all have preferences, we all have things we don't get. So we stay 
away from them. That is not prejudice, that's free choice.

Now me:
My point exactly.  It is my free choice to not read HP-based fanfic, 
including slash fanfic, ribald fanfic or whatever I choose not to 
read.  Take a number about being having your posts misread, my own 
posts have been mis-interpreted a lot lately as well.   :)  
Unfortunately, the heated exchanges lately have occurred because I 
and others are now under fire for not making the same choices that 
still others would make for themselves.

bboy_mn wrote:
> Common sense says that a huge number of people read slash because 
they find it appealing, and equally so, a huge number don't read it 
because they don't find it appealing. You don't find it appealing. 
That is your right and priviledge, and you can't and shouldn't be 
attacked for that. 

Now me:
Thank you.  I really do appreciate it, now that I've calmed down and 
have interpreted your posts more correctly.  

bboy_mn wrote:
> Part of the reason I defended you (although, apparently I didn't 
do it very well) is that, while uneasy with your use of the 
word 'normal' I read your intended use as 'common' or 'norm' as did 
many other people.

Now me:
You've confused me with another poster who used the term 'normal' 
when discussing this thread.  I never used that term in my posts.  
The other poster, who had some good points as well, explained her 
use of that term in later posts.  I can't find the post right now or 
I'd give you the message number.  

bboy_mn wrote:
> The whole confusion regarding what I wrote hinges on being able to
> differentiate between what addresses the subject in general and 
what
> is addressed to you personally. Whether you see it or not, after I
> addressed the subject in general, I defended your right to take the
> position you did take.
 
> And since by your own admission, you don't get it (slash that is) I
> attempted to explain who does get it and why they get it. A very
> substantial number of Slash readers and writer are hetrosexual 
young
> women. While logic would make one assume it was all gay men. I 
though
> that was a very significant point. That addresses who; the why is, 
we
> are having fun, and we are keeping our fun contained as much as is
> reasonably possible to like minded individuals who seek this
> information out.
> 
> I think if you go back and re-read what I wrote with a substantial
> effort to sort out what is addressed to the subject in general and
> what is addressed at you specifically, I hope you will see that 
I'm on
> your side. I was defending your right not to get it.
>Sorry if you didn't see it that way.

Now me:
Your point about specific versus in general is now understood.  I 
never expected when this thread progressed this far that there would 
be such a vociferous response to the simple fact that I choose not 
to read fanfic based on Harry Potter characters.  Thanks for 
understanding my point of view and I'm sorry for leaping on you with 
both feet.  ??

Diana





From the.gremlin at verizon.net  Wed Jan 15 04:56:37 2003
From: the.gremlin at verizon.net (the.gremlin at verizon.net)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 22:56:37 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Life After Hogwarts
Message-ID: <20030115045637.MORA10203.pop017.verizon.net@[192.168.129.99]>

Kathryn Cawte wrote:
"After all Conan Doyle didn't want to write any more Sherlock Holmes to the extent wher e he killed him off ... and yet he still came back anyway. I personally have trouble believeing that if Harry is still alive at the end of book 7 that she won't at some point end up writing more."

Conan Doyle *hated* Holmes, and only brought him back because the outcry was so great (I'm grateful, I'm a big Holmes fan). JKR seems to like Harry, and I don't think she would just kill him off because she doesn't want to write him anymore. 

However, she has said that Book 7 is the last book, and hasn't she had these books planned out for awhile? Besides, Conan Doyle didn't have a mass fan base writing fan fics about Holmes at the time he was writing. Now he does, but he's dead, and other people are writing Holmes stories or making movies about him. Perhaps Harry's story will be continued by another author. Well, someone brought up that point already, but as I've mentioned on HP4GU, I have this terrible habit of deleting anything that doesn't contain the word 'Snape' in it. :D

-Acire, who thinks Holmes reminds her slightly of Snape (not good-looking, yet women find him attractive, intelligent, cold, witty) and thinks that's why she likes him (Holmes).


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 15 05:33:43 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve <bboy_mn@yahoo.com>)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 05:33:43 -0000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Life After Hogwarts
In-Reply-To: <20030115045637.MORA10203.pop017.verizon.net@[192.168.129.99]>
Message-ID: <b02rrn+94mn@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, <the.gremlin at v...> wrote:
> Kathryn Cawte wrote:
>
> ...edited...
> 
> However, she has said that Book 7 is the last book, and hasn't she
had these books planned out for awhile? ...edited...
> 
> -Acire, 

bboy_mn:

JKR doesn't PLAN on writing any more Harry Potter books. But I think
there is a big element of inspiration involded. Writers like this
write based on inspiration. She was riding on the train and
inspiration hit her and Harry Potter was born.

Right now her life is consumed by getting these 7 books out. Once they
are done, she may be sitting around one day, and a new Harry Potter
idea will hit her and she will be off and writing again. If the
inspiration never comes then there won't be any more. But there is not
way to supress the inspiration. If it hits her, she will have to run
with it. An author like her, could never turn way, if Harry starts
whispering in her ear again.

So, she doesn't plan it, but that doesn't mean it can't happen.

Just a thought.

bboy_mn







From tahewitt at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 15 06:08:57 2003
From: tahewitt at yahoo.com (Tyler Hewitt)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 22:08:57 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Digest Number 893
In-Reply-To: <1042606600.2767.91273.m14@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20030115060857.25988.qmail@web14203.mail.yahoo.com>


Someone wrote:
"JKR states that she will not continue Harry & Co.'s
adventures past 
Hogwarts...

I'm wondering if anyone else thinks it might be
possible that we could see a continuation of the
series; if not by some chance that JKR should change
her mind, but possibly by ::gasp:: *a different 
author*??"


I don't know how interested I'd be in reading 'life
after Hogwarts' adventures. As much as I love the HP
series, I think letting it end naturally might be a
good idea. 
That said, there are related things thet JKR could do
that I'd find interesting. I really like the
"Fantastic Beasts" and "Quidditch Through the Ages"
books. They're cute, fun, a quick read, and give
background info to the larger HP story. There are
other similar things that could be done. I'd love to
be able to read "Hogwarts-A History", for one. 

Tyler




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From scifispice80 at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 15 06:49:19 2003
From: scifispice80 at yahoo.com (scifispice80 <scifispice80@yahoo.com>)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 06:49:19 -0000
Subject: Mary sueism and other fandoms question
Message-ID: <b0309f+ttu8@eGroups.com>

Hey all, I'm usually a lurker, so this is my first official post.  I 
have a question for people who are involved in other fandoms as well 
as Harry Potter.  I've been in fandom for a show called the Secret 
Adventures of Jules Verne for a few years now.  The show only lasted 
one season, but the fandom as whole is very dedicated, and has 
generated an enormous amount of fanfiction.  I've written fanfic for 
the show and interacted with many of the authors, webmasters, etc for 
quite some time, and the concept of mary sueism never once came up.  
I'm also a member of several buffy lists, groups etc, which have lots 
of fic, and I never hear anything about mary sueism there either.  I 
know mary sueism supposedly started in the  star trek fandom, and 
even though I'm a trekkie, I never got into the fanfic aspect of it, 
so I never came across it there either.  It wasn't until I got into 
Harry Potter fanfic recently that I even found out what a Mary sue 
was.  Has anyone else who's part of different fandoms experienced 
this?  Are other fandoms lacking the concept of mary sueism and the 
hp fandom just very quirky, or is it there and I just haven't noticed?

Scifispice80





From saitaina at wizzards.net  Wed Jan 15 06:53:49 2003
From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 22:53:49 -0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Mary sueism and other fandoms question
References: <b0309f+ttu8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <003001c2bc62$dbef38a0$95bbefd8@oemcomputer>

Scifispice80 wrote:

<I'm also a member of several Buffy lists,
groups etc, which have lots
of fic, and I never hear anything about mary
sueism there either.>

I don't know what part of the "Buffy" fandom
you're a part of but Mary-Sue's have always
been a problem there.  From past/current
slayers to SIT's to vampires.  I've run
across them in everything from fanfiction to
roleplay groups.

Saitaina
****
"Yours is better than mine. Mine still has
wood-grained fur," Harry complained.
"It's camoflauge kitty. It'll blend with the
wainscoting."
"Just what I always wanted- a cat that can
sneak into the library," Harry said dryly

http://www.livejournal.com/users/saitaina

James: "Option One is that we go back into
the jail cell and pretend we have no idea how
the couch came to be lying in the hall when
he comes back."





From selah_1977 at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 15 08:00:04 2003
From: selah_1977 at yahoo.com (Ebony <selah_1977@yahoo.com>)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 08:00:04 -0000
Subject: my late rant on slash and parenting, etc.
Message-ID: <b034e5+i7d2@eGroups.com>

John said, in response to Diana re: slash:

"I think that posing questions about the nature of
love, or the nature of war, or the nature of interpersonal 
relationships,
WILL cause all four of those things! That's what fanfiction ? and book
discussion ? is about! It's taking situations and characters about 
whom we
have preconceived notions and examining those preconceptions in the 
light of
differently-interpreted information. Information about characters and 
the
wizarding world from others' cultural and personal perspectives, 
whether
those perspectives are from an African-American woman (Ebony's 
narrator,
Angelina, in Trouble in Paradise), a gay man (my Oliver and Percy in
Keeper's Secrets), a Jane Austen fan (Heidi's Homage), a Buffy fan 
(Keith
Fraser's howlingly funny Ginny the Vampire Slayer).

"Reading Ebony's work and interacting with her on a fandom level HAS 
caused
me to grow as a person. It has increased my understanding of
African-American issues. It has reinforced my acceptance and 
tolerance of
people who are physically different from me. I am immensely grateful 
to
whatever fates or deities conspired to have our paths cross."


And reading John's work, becoming friends with him via the fandom, 
and watching him grow into an awesome young man over the past three 
years has helped me understand so much about gay issues and the 
struggle that they face.  He's taught me *so* much.

That is the beauty of fandom, IMO. 

I am not going to weigh in much on the whole slash debate, because 
after staying up until 3 a.m. to read almost 300 posts I don't have a 
real opinion about "why do people read slash?"  I just think some do 
and some don't.  While it's true that I read far more HP het than 
anything else, that's because my primary ship here is a het one.  I 
do follow some slashers; John and Alex are two of my favorites, and 
another, Aja, is on my soon-to-read list.  In many other fandoms 
where I am not active, but lurk, I read slash fanfic.  These fandoms 
include Hercules, Xena, Gargoyles, X-Men, and the Matrix.  

Having said that, I fully support slash HP fanfic's right to exist.  
In fact, one of the worst things that has happened to the fanfiction 
side of the fandom over the past year is that it's become more 
compartmentalized... I interact with slashers and read my slash lists 
a lot less than I did a year and a half ago, simply because of time 
and the fandom's expansion meaning that we all sometimes lose sight 
of each other.  I remember when there was hardly any slash in the 
fandom, and I welcome the upsurge.  We need the diversity, or else my 
favorite character Hermione becomes the slut of Hogwarts.  (Well, in 
femmeslash... *doesn't mention that coooool raspberry swirl site*)

But I don't understand why all the yelling about slash is going on.  
Where is all these explicit slash where kids can find it?  As a 
teacher, please let me know.  My slash writing friends would want to 
know as well.

Speaking of which, you do know that this conversation has a blatant 
double standard.  Why no outcry about explicit het fanfiction?  I 
could certainly point out lots of it, as I'm primarily a het reader 
in HP fandom and must troll far and wide to find good and non-plebey 
reads.  

Come to think of it, I first read about gay sex at age 13-14.  I 
think it was Jackie Collins, either *Lucky* or *The Boss*... 
certainly not a gay or lesbian writer.  Was I scarred?  No.  I was 
just fine... and kept on reading.  I was (and continue to be!) more 
disturbed by the murder scenes.

In fact, my own fanfiction has a strong R rating, and I wouldn't want 
my students to read.  My fanfiction also contains gay, lesbian, and 
bisexual characters.  I am trying to give more stage time to one 
lesbian couple in particular, as I'm interested in how their 
relationship will play out... both are Latina, and I am very 
interested in how gay women are focalized in Latin culture.  (Also 
have been reading a lot on Frida Kahlo lately.)  

That is why Heidi *kept mentioning* me, along with Viola, Lori, Barb, 
and other grownup het writers.  And I find it amusing that none of 
the "concerned" bring up het at all in these debates.  They almost 
never do.  I'm quite offended... why is no one saying that our work 
is antithetical to JKR's intent?

Homophobia *is* bigotry.  Plain and simple.

And as far as "parenting" is concerned... why has no one mentioned 
gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgendered parents?  Two of 
my "aunts", family friends and new members of the church I attend, 
are lesbians.  (London 2001 people--one of them is my braider!)  The 
choir director at my church is a gay man.  No one keeps them away 
from kids; the former raised four together.   They are good people 
and awesome parents.  And it makes me mad when people hate them and 
don't even know them.

(BTW, my church is awesome too--my pastor is one of the few straight 
black male pastors from the South that I know that is truly 
tolerant.  He's also brilliant--a Princeton Ph.D.  He's one of the 
few people who proves that one can be a Christian and not check their 
brain and soul at the door.  And that our faith SUPPOSEDLY 
says "whosoever will, let him come"... tired sigh.)

So as far as "levels of acceptable disclosure" are concerned, how 
long do they have to wait before they can be truly who they are in 
front of their kids?

In fact, as a teacher I can honestly say that all of the bad and 
sucky parents I've run into are (at least to my knowledge) 
heterosexual.  

And really, you have gay members of the fandom weighing in on this 
issue.  They're not talking fiction or something they've read; 
they're sharing their LIVES here.  People seem to be ignoring their 
pleas, even belittling their experience of coming out.  This makes me 
as annoyed as when people of the majority culture "guess at" what the 
needs, preferences, and worldview of the racialized Other is.  Very 
often you get it wrong... so why not just at least attempt to deal 
with the fact that you don't know everything?

"I suppose it's the similar problem that I face as a white person when
referring to black people: African-American? Afro-Caribbean? People of
color? Black? black? (lowercase intentional) Brown? I tend to stick 
with
African-American when referring to black Americans, Afro-Caribbean 
when
referring to black Brits, and then I keep my antennae out for 
reactions,
corrections or language used by the other person, adapting mine to 
suit."

John, babe, I don't even know what the hell they're calling us this 
week.  :-D  Have always been confused, and thus use black and African 
American interchangeably in speaking and writing.  Will let you know 
when I find out!

--Eb




From selah_1977 at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 15 08:02:01 2003
From: selah_1977 at yahoo.com (Ebony <selah_1977@yahoo.com>)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 08:02:01 -0000
Subject: Couplethink (late response to Tabouli, Amy, Judy)
Message-ID: <b034hp+o7an@eGroups.com>

You guys drove me out of lurkdom for this one. 

Tabouli wrote:

"The fact of the matter is that I have, to date, *always* been 
happier when
single than when in a sexual relationship. *Always*. (cue for friends 
to coo
"oooh, but that's because you just haven't met the right guy..."). 
Relationships have the very effect on me that Elkins describes. A 
relationship
consumes so much of my mental space and time and energy, narrows my 
focus,
dominates my brain. Relationships podify me. Haven't had one for two 
years
and haven't missed having one. And have been happier in the last two 
years
than I ever was before now when I was having a series of what were 
really
pretty unsatisfactory relationships."

YES, Tabouli.  Yes, yes, and yes again.  I am 25 and have been single 
for two years.  I've dated some, but I've actively rejected many 
chances to get involved again.  I am far too busy for a 
boyfriend/significant other/whatver right now.  I mean, the men I've 
dated over the past two years do not understand the Travel Thing, the 
HP Thing, the Why You Have To Go To Grad School Now Thing, and then 
they do not understand why I don't have time to be at their beck and 
call even when I explain... "I teach high school full time, I'm 
writing a thesis, and I'm really involved with the running of several 
websites.  You'd have to understand that."  One of my beta-readers 
seemed to think that this was mainly a cultural thing (I guess 
implying something about black men), but it can't be as two of the 
guys in question were from the majority culture... I am an equal 
opportunity dater.  

And I get so impatient... because the men I've dated expect so much 
from me, and I'm so completely unwilling to drop everything for their 
sake.  I've not met anyone I'd do that for yet.  I don't know if I 
ever will.  Or if I ever want to.
 
Now, I meet interested men all the time.  No one's ever had to "fix 
me up"; I get approached not just in clubs or bars or at the mall, 
but I've dated colleagues from other schools or districts, 
classmates, people I've met through mutual friends.  But not only am 
I not dating, to my family's chagrin, I'm not making dating a 
priority.  This is certainly a new one for them; they aren't quite 
sure how to take it.  All the women in my family are stay-at-home 
homemakers who married by the time they were my age.  College degree 
or not, and no matter how much money there is (we range from lower 
working to upper middle on Mom's side.)  They worry about me, I 
know.  But I can't care.  I can't be on some "well, my late 20s are 
approaching, better get a man" timetable.

So.  Am I unhappy?  Deep down?

Not really.

I think everything happens for a reason.  And the reason why I didn't 
marry my ex, and broke up with him, is because I was hungry for 
something else out of life.  I wanted something more than my narrow 
view of the world, which was centered on community, and family, and 
church, and *him*.   But with him, it was all about him... and I've 
found that to be the case in so many relationships.

And right now in my life, I want it to be about me.  Someday I may 
marry, and then I'll have to share.  But the past two years and more 
have been bliss.  It's been the first time in my life where I'm not 
beholden to anyone.  I can eat whatever I want... sleep when I 
want... and if I want, I can call up someone for company.  If not, I 
can be by myself.  It's nice.  I don't feel like I have to cook 
dinner or wash clothes or do anything except what I want to do when I 
want to do it.  So I think I'm embarking on my third year of being 
drunk on independence.

And married friends and co-workers say, "How do you like living 
alone?"

Well.  I love it.  So much, in fact, I've turned down roommate 
offers.  I'm rarely lonely; people are only a phone call or an 
Internet click away.  I have a car; if I want people I can go pack a 
bag and be with them.  It's a nice, cozy feeling.

I used to envy marriage more when I was in my early 20s, and still 
not over my ex. I used to sigh over married friends, over their lives 
and homes and babies, and wish like hell The Fairy Tale would happen 
for me.

Please.

To be honest?  I have a feeling that if and when I do get a new 
boyfriend, the fandom will have to go.  I am serious.  The time that 
I'm able to give to the fandom now used to be "couple time".  Now, 
I'm doing fandom things from after dinner until I fall asleep.  And 
even worse, on *Saturdays* I Mod FictionAlley, advise other fandom 
sites, do my grad school reading, go shopping, visit museums, write 
fanfic... instead of going on dates.


Tabouli goes on to say:

"The most irksome thing about it isn't the lack of boyfriend, it's 
people's
refusal to believe that you can be happy without one. They are 
convinced that
you are just in denial, or putting a brave face on it, or playing the
independent woman who needs no-one role and fooling no-one, or, most
insultingly of all, that the reason why you're single is because 
there's
Something Wrong With You (too fussy, too unrealistic, "threatened by 
men", too
old, too unattractive... the list goes on)."

Oh, Tabouli.  *laughs*  You hit the nail on the head again.  You see, 
in my fanfiction, I just married some folks off after a long time, 
and this generated some discussion.  Eventually my view of marriage 
and children came under fire.  And a couple of the readers (both 
Fieldingian Smug Marrieds, one a woman, the other a man) assured me 
that Yes, Someday My Prince Would Come If I Just Patiently Waited.  

Ooooooookay.  Guess I'll keep on waiting like a good little girl, 
then!  :)

I do admit the holidays can be hard if you've got this unrealistic 
view of them.  Over the first three weeks of December, I got very 
wibbly... second Christmas with no boyfriend!  What if horror of 
horrors this was a trend?

But this season was fantastic.  I was shocked, quite frankly.  It was 
a season of firsts... first time I co-hosted our family's holiday 
party/karamu, first time I slept beneath the Christmas tree all night 
on Christmas Eve (long story... childhood fantasy of mine), first 
time I went clubbing on New Year's Eve.

I had a fantastic time.  And I have this feeling that 2003 will be 
even better.


Amy wrote:

"Or we don't take the time... 
A sociological factor in the U.S. is that we are very mobile over a 
very wide stretch of continent. Many Americans still live and die in 
a single small town, but millions of us pick up and go for education, 
work, or to marry someone from far away (since we meet them when we 
go thousands of miles for school or work). Much has been written 
about how this may make us shy of creating deep friendships, 
community connections, etc. I think to some extent it is true."

Totally agreed here.  One of the reasons why I think I'm able to 
function as a single without getting wibbly every time I think about 
being solo is because my life is filled with people who love me.  I'm 
integrated into so many fabrics... I've got an extended family who is 
now based here in Detroit, I am a teacher with an ever-growing number 
of students and former students, and I'm slowly expanding my sphere 
in grad school.  There are a lot of things I hate about this city, 
but in Detroit and 'burbs, there's about one or two degrees of 
separation.  It's easy for me  to feel integrated and get things 
done... to feel at home.

Could I move somewhere else?  Sure. But it doesn't take an act of 
matyrdom to stay, it's easy, it's familiar, and it's emotionally 
healthy for me to have these "hook-ups".

Connections can be even made online, if you're so inclined.  I was 
lucky in HP fandom; when I got here, I got to know the people who 
were doing things to build it, and I helped.  Then I started writing 
fanfic, and a lot of people read the first one.   However, I think 
the whole BNF thing is silly when it comes to me.  So when people IM 
me or e-mail saying I'm the great this or the famous that, I stop 
them in their tracks and ask about them.  All of the closest fandom 
friends I've made over the past year and a half were former fans whom 
I cultivated friendships with.  I don't want "fans" here, that's 
pretentious.  I want *friends*.  

And I think I got a few... while for some longtime HP folks this 
primarily an online phenom, many of the people in HP fandom have 
become my dearest RL friends.  They call me when I'm sick, send me 
birthday and Christmas cards, come to visit, insist that I stay with 
them, etc.  Recent examples--one of my best friends from the fandom 
told me yesterday that she and some of her girlfriends are driving up 
here for the weekend sometime this month, and to expect company.  
Another fandom friend in South America expects to be getting married 
this year, and I am to attend this wedding, full stop.  Then another 
who extended her hospitality to me in London in the summer of 2001 
asked if I'd be returning, and we talked about plans for a catch-up 
chat at Nimbus.

So I guess I say all this to say that it's going to take a pretty 
special man for me now.  My world's expanded so much more widely 
now... so when I'm on a date, and a guy tells me he doesn't like to 
travel, he likes to stay home and play video games, and doesn't seem 
to really dig me doing all this stuff, then why bother?  He's not 
going to change me and I've no interest in changing him.  Let him 
have his sofa.  :)

Judy wrote:

"I agree that this is a real problem. What I see as the worst part of
"the privileging of sex" is that it leaves partnerless people in an
awful position. I never really had a boyfriend until I met Tom (who
is now my husband) at the age of 24. Before that, I felt socially
excluded a lot. I remember some of my female friends saying that I
shouldn't worry so much about not having a boyfriend, and should just
concentrate on my (non-romantic) friendships. But, when I'd respond
with "OK, good idea. So, do you want to go see a movie?" they would
invariably say "Sorry, I've got a date with my boyfriend." Gah! "

Oh, then that's when you get a new group of friends.  *vbeg*

Almost all my closest friends, fandom and RL, are single and divorced 
women in my age bracket.  There are a few men, a few marrieds, and a 
few marrieds-with-kids.  But my core friendship base are my fellow 
solo sisters... and that helps.   

And sure, sometimes they might have a date, or I might have a date.  
But I will certainly go to the movies by myself, to a restaurant by 
myself, to a museum or gallery by myself.  Do this often.  Like doing 
it.  Have met some interesting people doing it.  This year, I plan to 
go to a nice club by myself.  I like being on a date, I like doing 
things in groups, but I like my own company at times.  (I think this 
is why I meet people a lot too... because sometimes it's easier for 
someone to come up to you when you're by yourself than when you're in 
a group.)

And Elkins?  Your strong convictions are admirable.  However, I 
cannot believe in what you say simply because in my RL, all platonic 
friendships have been suspect.  All of my closest platonic 
friendships were changed when 1) he admitted his feelings for me 
(most often), 2)  he got into a relationship with an insecure woman 
who did not like me and interfered (a few times), or 3) we realized 
we were more than friends and began to date (in two cases).  

If there is any area of friendship I'd most like to experience, it's 
a completely platonic relationship with a straight guy.  I've got gay 
male friends; but there, you can't test the theory as there's no 
sexual attraction.  I'd love to have just a guy *friend*, without any 
of the strings, --but it never works out that way for me.  I know it 
exists, but it hasn't happened for me yet.

--Eb




From selah_1977 at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 15 08:10:49 2003
From: selah_1977 at yahoo.com (Ebony <selah_1977@yahoo.com>)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 08:10:49 -0000
Subject: Slash and parenting was Re: Responses to
In-Reply-To: <b01v38+ia2d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b03529+fin7@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999 <foxmoth at q...>" 
<foxmoth at q...> wrote:
> Me:
> I think this is overstating the case. An irrational dislike is 
*not* the same as a phobia. A phobia is pathological. Furthermore I 
> don't think that one can extrapolate from reading material to real 
> life.
> 
> For example, I dislike the  Harry/Hermione pairing. I avoid it in 
> fics because a) it doesn't turn me on, and it annoys me to "read 
> diagonally" (what a wonderful phrase!) paragraphs of "pumpkin 
> pie"  obviously intended for that purpose, and b) it reads OOC to 
> me. Plenty of people have told me this is irrational <g>. 

*pipes up with a grin*  Like me?


> I don't deny it, but I don't think it means I'm diseased. It 
doesn't 
> carry over to real life, AFAIK. Many delightful people have real-
life 
> relationships very similar to the imagined H/H pairing and I don't 
> avoid or fear them in any way. They just don't remind me of Harry 
> and Hermione at all.

But you wouldn't go as far as to tell your son not to read H/H 
fanfiction that was age-appropriate, would you?  I mean, I don't have 
quite your H/H reaction on my part to R/H (as after all, I have 
written that ship), but a few of my students do read R/H fanfiction 
and enjoy it.  And you know that I love writing and reading H/H 
stories, but you don't hate me for it... you even beta-read, and I 
value what you've done for it.

OTOH, what we're talking here is a real bias that seems to affect the 
judgment and good sense of others.  I think what everyone is picking 
up on is that the anti-slash diatribe is indicative of other, more 
serious factors... just as in the shipping debates of the past three 
years, we've posited that the het ship dichotomy is indicative of 
more than just who we want Hermione to end up with, but of how we 
read and see life.  However in this case it is far more serious... 
and I doubt that a rational discourse can even happen at this point, 
as long as the issues inherent loom larger than just a simple 
children's series.

--Eb, going to bed.




From macloudt at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Jan 15 09:53:57 2003
From: macloudt at yahoo.co.uk (Mary Ann <macloudt@yahoo.co.uk>)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 09:53:57 -0000
Subject: Birthday Greetings!
Message-ID: <b03b3l+10pc6@eGroups.com>

:::::skips into the room throwing balloons and streamers about.  A 
huge cake is in the middle of the table, surrounded by lots of 
nibbles:::::

Put your party hats on, folks, because we have another birthday to 
celebrate.  Today's birthday girl is our very own Mod Heidi!  
Greetings can be sent to the List or to heidit at netbox.com

Have a lovely, special day, Heidi, and may lots of HP goodies come 
your way!

Mary Ann
(who made sure that none of the nibbles contained pate or 
unpasturized cheeses ;) )




From mb2910 at hotmail.com  Wed Jan 15 12:39:53 2003
From: mb2910 at hotmail.com (Meira B)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 14:39:53 +0200
Subject: 1)an apology, which I think is in order; 2)sex ed; 3)slash and 4)homosexuality
Message-ID: <F206hwzfcc9teYMaEAT0001388e@hotmail.com>

First and Foremost - An Apology:

OK, first of all, please allow me to apologize to all those that I presumed 
to know their thoughts, and to those that I failed miserably in 
understanding the various points they were trying to get across.


~^~^~^~


Numero dos - Sexual Education:

(I am not an expert on child-psychology, and if someone has some facts which 
are contrary to what I say, then I'd lvoe to hear them out, these are my own 
opinions).

My own experience proves that the best way to explain things to children is 
at their own pace. I don't like the approach of the "ok, son, let's talk 
about the 'Birds and the Bees' now", just because it's not natural.

I do think that the kid should be encouraged to come with the questions to 
the parent.

When the kid does ask, I think that the basic "what goes where" should be 
explained. I also think that the level of explanation should be adjusted to 
the kid. Not because kids are stupid, but percisely because you don't want 
them losing interest in your explanation and turning to other sources of 
information.
Also, books that are specially written for the kid's age group are very 
helpful in this.

Later, the informational gaps can be filled with more advanced explanations 
and books.

Another reason why I believe in doing things at the kid's own rhythm (I hope 
that this is spelled right...) is because kids should be given their own 
time to grow up. Hurrying them through the process of childhood (and of 
being a teenager), is not a good thing. That, IMO (and please correct me if 
I'm wrong) is one of the reasons why violence has increased so much, why I 
see 13 year-old kids smoking and sometimes even drinking (and probably they 
use drugs when no one's around).

When it comes to supervising what the kid sees on TV or on the internet, on 
one hand parental supervision is a must. On the other hand, you (and they) 
don't want you to stand over their shoulder all the time. Which is what 
makes the whole thing really complicated...
Which is why colour-coding the fics, which is good, because not everybody 
likes angsty fics, or humorfics, the fics should have before the link to 
them is opened, a rating and a main ship description (in het *and* in slash 
fics), to take one problematic issue into account.


~^~^~^~


Point the Third - Slash:

There's nothing wrong with slash. Personally, the best HP fanfics I've read 
were slash. But there are people who don't like to slash HP.

There's a difference between slash and sex, it's not the same (As so many 
people pointed out around here).
Slash is a term that is used to define a ship (meaning, relationship) that 
occurs between two members of the same sex (that is, two men or two women), 
and a slash fic is not necessarily rated NC-17.

Some people might say "hey, why not" when confronted with the idea of a 
slash pairing in the HP fandom, and have the "hey, why not" reaction to 
NC-17 fics as well.

Some people might not like HP slashed or NC-17-ed. There's nothing wrong 
with that either. That does *not* make them homophobes, that simply means 
that gay characters do not fit into their own image of the Potterverse as 
they see it. Even though gay people *do* exist in the real world.

(like my own personal aversion to seeing Slytherins smoking. I don't think 
it's a very Slytherin-y thing to do. My aunt and one of my cousins smoke. I 
do not love them any less for that, I just wish they'd stop smoking).

~^~^~^~

Last (for now) - Homosexual-related issues (and please accept that I'm not 
trying to insult anyone here, I just use the word that means percisely that. 
'Homo' means 'same', and sexual, well, you know what *that* means *g*):

There's nothing wrong with being gay. There's nothing wrong with being 
straight either.
I would very much love to learn more about how one person turns out to be 
gay, whether it's because he decided to be gay, or because of genetics. I 
assumed that scientists were still arguing over this subject.

I think that hating others just because they are a bit different is stupid, 
but it's every person's right.
What isn't every person's right is to be violent about it.
If I borrow the ketchup example,
Some people prefer ketchup and others prefer mustard.
Those who prefer mustard have all the right to hate the ketchup-lovers, but 
what they can't do is force the ketchup-lovers to start consuming mustard 
instead of ketchup, or throw rotten tomatoes at them.
Ok, this was a bit silly, but I hope my point got across.

Wether it is by choice or by genes that can't be helped, homosexual men 
prefer other men. I don't know any other way to express this.
And my pizza topping analogy is not so wrong, if you think about it. Maybe 
my dislike of mushrooms is caused only by the enviroment's influence (though 
this is something that I really don't know, since both myself and my mother 
hate mushrooms with passion *g*), but the fact is that I prefer not to have 
mushrooms on my pizza.


~^~^~^~^~


Questions:

John: "I know, that's something of a strawman, but it's a relevant one."

[1] What's a "strawman"?

***

Barb wrote: "I firmly believe that scientists who have determined there is a 
genetic and/or biological basis to our orientations are correct,
based in part on a great deal of anecdotal testimony available
concerning the unchangeable nature of orientation (in addition to
the more scientific studies).  I also believe, however, that those
who claim orientation should not be protected under hate-crimes laws
because they call it a "choice" should see the hypocrisy in their
stand, when many of them are direct beneficiaries of their choice of
religion being protected under law."

[2] This is something that I'm not sure I understand entirely.
(hehe... y'see? I learned something... try and understand what someone says 
*before* replying on it, much trouble can be avoided this way. ^-^)


~^~^~^~^~


Comments:

[1] I will refrain from using things like "AARRGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH....." in the 
future. Point taken and noted. Barbaric and unnecessary.

***

John: "I know that in general the_sabra_ style of speaking is more blunt and 
straightforward than most other English speakers"

[2] Yes it is *g*. But please take note that in Israel, there are three 
official languages: Hebrew, Arabic and English.

***

John: "I'm happy to provide links" (about homosexuality and genes)

[3] I'd love that, thanks.

***

[4] I said earlier: "John should really decide who's opinion matter to him."

To which John asked: "I don't understand this in the context. Can you 
explain, please?"

And my answer is:
My own, personal perspective on things is that I try to decide who's 
opinions matter to me and whose don't. I found that that makes me far less 
prone to being insulted and upset. Since I am not infallible, that does not 
always seem to work (as proven to my comment to Laura that she was 
patronizing me).




Meira.

"I hear, I admit, but I have a voice too, and for good or evil mine is the 
speech that cannot be silenced."
~ Heart of Darkness / Joseph Conrad ~

_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE*. 
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail




From heidit at netbox.com  Wed Jan 15 13:10:07 2003
From: heidit at netbox.com (heiditandy)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 08:10:07 -0500
Subject: News from Bloomsbury - finally!
Message-ID: <052601c2bc97$6d6b5730$0301a8c0@Frodo>

<a
href="Click'>http://www.bloomsburymagazine.com/harrypotter/muggles/whass
up/news.asp"
<http://www.bloomsburymagazine.com/harrypotter/muggles/whassup/news.asp>
>Click here</a> for the announcement by Bloomsbury of the June 21, 2003
release date. 
 
Yes, it's Bloomsbury's site, so it *is* official. <br><br>
Sections from the book on the Bloomsbury site include:
<blockquote>
 
"The hottest day of the summer so far was drawing to a close and a
drowsy silence lay over the large, square houses of Privet Drive .  The
only person left outside was a teenage boy who was lying flat on his
back in a flowerbed outside number four."
 
<br><br>"Dumbledore lowered his hands and surveyed Harry through his
half-moon glasses.  
<br>
'It is time,' he said, 'for me to tell you what I should have told you
five years ago, Harry.  
 
Please sit down.  I am going to tell you everything.'"</blockquote><br>
Now, for one of those rare personal comments: <i>My inner Trelawney knew
this information was going to be released on my birthday!</i>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Wed Jan 15 13:14:35 2003
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David <dfrankiswork@netscape.net>)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 13:14:35 -0000
Subject: News from Bloomsbury - finally!
In-Reply-To: <052601c2bc97$6d6b5730$0301a8c0@Frodo>
Message-ID: <b03mrr+o9t4@eGroups.com>


> "The hottest day of the summer so far was drawing to a close and a
> drowsy silence lay over the large, square houses of Privet 
Drive .  The
> only person left outside was a teenage boy who was lying flat on 
his
> back in a flowerbed outside number four."

"Everybody else was in town queuing, as they had been since the 
evening before, to buy their copy of 'Harry Potter and the Order of 
the Phoenix'"

D




From tabouli at unite.com.au  Wed Jan 15 14:07:20 2003
From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 01:07:20 +1100
Subject: Glory be!  The ratio!  (OoP)
Message-ID: <004a01c2bc9f$6c178d60$01d832d2@price>

So the phoenix is *finally* coming home to roost... and on the solstice, no less!  I'm hankering already for the unveiling of the cover design.  But... *one-third* longer that *GoF*???  Egad.  This is going to look very odd indeed in the boxed sets.  The mind boggles.  At this rate the seventh book in the series  (which JKR always said would be the longest) will need an entire box to itself.

The length of these books seems to be going up exponentially.  In fact... this sounds like a mission for David.  There must be some mathematical way to check whether the page count best fits an exponential curve, mustn't there?

Tabouli.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Wed Jan 15 14:01:09 2003
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius <coriolan@worldnet.att.net>)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 14:01:09 -0000
Subject: News from Bloomsbury - finally!
In-Reply-To: <052601c2bc97$6d6b5730$0301a8c0@Frodo>
Message-ID: <b03pj5+u4kd@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "heiditandy" <heidit at n...> 
wrote:
>>  
> Please sit down.  I am going to tell you 
everything.'"</blockquote><br>
> Now, for one of those rare personal comments: <i>My inner Trelawney 
knew
> this information was going to be released on my birthday!</i>
> 
> 

My inner Trelawney (an eternal pessimist) told me that it would come 
out sometime between June 14-28 - because I'll be out of the country 
those two weeks touring Greece. 

I'm not complaining - and it will be a fabulous once in a lifetime 
vacation, and the sooner OoTP is out the better. But, there I'll be, 
touring Thessaloniki, Crete and Patmos, whilst wondering what 
Dumbledore is going tell Harry. Oh well, at least the lines at the 
bookstores will have subsided by then (but what if there are no 
copies left?)

    - CMC






From rhiannon333 at hotmail.com  Wed Jan 15 14:19:28 2003
From: rhiannon333 at hotmail.com (rhiannon333 <rhiannon333@hotmail.com>)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 14:19:28 -0000
Subject: Birthday Greetings!
In-Reply-To: <b03b3l+10pc6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b03qlg+m1hq@eGroups.com>

*throws confetti*

(*surreptitiously sweeps as she dispenses*)

*hands around hors d'oevres and cocktails*

*sings*

("Happy Birthday" rendition is drowned out by groans at awfulness of
singing)

Best wishes for a very happy birthday Heidi, and all happiness in the
year to 
come.

Megan




From urbana at charter.net  Wed Jan 15 14:55:46 2003
From: urbana at charter.net (Anne <urbana@charter.net>)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 14:55:46 -0000
Subject: Glory be!  The ratio!  (OoP)
In-Reply-To: <004a01c2bc9f$6c178d60$01d832d2@price>
Message-ID: <b03spi+nt8b@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Tabouli" <tabouli at u...> 
wrote:
> So the phoenix is *finally* coming home to roost... and on the 
solstice, no less!  I'm hankering already for the unveiling of the 
cover design.  But... *one-third* longer that *GoF*???  Egad.  This 
is going to look very odd indeed in the boxed sets.  The mind 
boggles.  At this rate the seventh book in the series  (which JKR 
always said would be the longest) will need an entire box to itself.
> 

Oh, our aching backs, and arms, and eyes (and in the case of kids who 
are being read to, EARS)! I foresee a run on those library stands  --
the kind on which you display your Oxford Unabridged Dictionary, all 
9,999 pages of it -- for Book 7. For this book you'll only need one 
of those lap-desks ;-)

Anne U
(who hopes the next 157 days fly by, but suspects they will seem like 
an eternity)





From ksnidget at aol.com  Wed Jan 15 15:31:12 2003
From: ksnidget at aol.com (ksnidget <ksnidget@aol.com>)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 15:31:12 -0000
Subject: Glory be! The ratio! (OoP)
Message-ID: <b03us0+fslv@eGroups.com>

Tabouli asks
>The length of these books seems to be going up exponentially. In fact... this
>sounds like a mission for David. There must be some mathematical way to check
>whether the page count best fits an exponential curve, mustn't there?

Well at the risk of displaying my inner geek in public.

Using the following data (page numbers for earlier books taken
from the Bloomsbury shop online web site)

1	    190
2	   256
3	   317
4   	636
5   	768

And then plotting them on a spreadsheet

Exponential fit yields an equation of
y = 123.84e raised to the 0.3704x
R2 = 0.9598

R2 is a measure of how well it fits

A linear fit trendline gives
y = 153.6x - 27.4
R2 = 0.9171

So Exponential fits so far better than linear

A second order polynomial fit gives
y = 27.857x2 - 13.543x + 167.6
R2 = 0.9593

Which is almost as good as the exponetial fit.

Because they are easier for me to solve quickly I'll
just give the expected page numbers for the linear
and the polynomial assuming the trend continues.

     linear	    polynomial
6   	894     	1089
7   	1048	    1438

Ksnidget <who really needs to get back to her FTIR spectra>









From bray.262 at osu.edu  Wed Jan 15 10:45:34 2003
From: bray.262 at osu.edu (Rachel Bray)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 10:45:34 +0000 (EST5EDT)
Subject: Has anyone read.....
Message-ID: <418B6341C32@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>

The Thief Lord?

I read it last night.  I found it to be very cute and fun.  
And I'm rather attached to the name Prosper now. 

Anyone have a countdown for how many days left until June 
21?    tic.....toc.....tic....toc.....  Sometimes I think 
its worse to know the due date because it seems that day 
will NEVER come!

Rachel Bray
The Ohio State University
Fees & Deposits

The light at the end of the tunnel may be an 
angry, flying Ford Anglia.



From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Wed Jan 15 16:12:50 2003
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David <dfrankiswork@netscape.net>)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 16:12:50 -0000
Subject: Glory be! The ratio! (OoP)
In-Reply-To: <b03us0+fslv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b041a2+3i9v@eGroups.com>

> Tabouli:
> >The length of these books seems to be going up exponentially. In 
fact... this
> >sounds like a mission for David. There must be some mathematical 
way to check
> >whether the page count best fits an exponential curve, mustn't 
there?

Ksnidget:
> Well at the risk of displaying my inner geek in public.
> 
> Using the following data (page numbers for earlier books taken
> from the Bloomsbury shop online web site)
> 
> 1	    190
> 2	   256
> 3	   317
> 4   	636
> 5   	768

Oh, a *rival*.

OK, lets quarrel about the data first.

You have used Bloomsbury's pagination: the trouble with this is that 
GOF was produced in a larger font (but same page size) than the 
first three.  And we don't know what the font will be for OOP.

Because of this, I have used the mid ranges of Devin's data on 
Scholastic, who have been consistent: see message 9849 here.

You can then take the figures of 191,000 and 255,000 words for GOF 
and OOP from Bloomsbury's announcement to estimate a Scholastic-
equivalent pages number of 981 for OOP, assuming that JKR's average 
word length is unchanged.

That gives the following:

Linear: R2 0.90, B6 1100, B7 1250
Quadratic: R2 0.99 B6 1400, B7 1900
Exponential: R2 0.94 B6 1300, B7 1700

all by comparison with the Scholastic editions.

Quadratic is bound to give a better fit (to the existing data) than 
linear since it has an extra degree of freedom.

The exponential fit is pretty good, though it's impossible to answer 
Tabouli's question about 'best'.  We only have 5 data points so it 
is easy to find a curve (e.g. a quartic) that fits perfectly (ie R2 
= 1) but gives virtually no confidence about the length of future 
books.  Indeed the best fit quartic predicts 500 pages for book 6 
and *minus* 1800 for book 7.  So much for curve fitting.

I would view any simple extrapolation based on curve fitting alone 
with extreme suspicion without any model of the actual writing 
process.  Why should the books be getting longer?  If we can explain 
that we might have a basis for prediction.  Most series I can think 
of have tended to maintain a fairly consistent book length.

After all, a decent model should be able to say something about FB 
and QTTA, too.

In message 9881 I suggested bases for calculation - which shows how 
wrong one can be, as I plumped for the *average* of the previous 
books as the best estimator (this would now lead to 560 pages for 6 
and 7).

David




From Joanne0012 at aol.com  Wed Jan 15 17:25:05 2003
From: Joanne0012 at aol.com (joanne0012 <Joanne0012@aol.com>)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 17:25:05 -0000
Subject: News from Bloomsbury - finally!
In-Reply-To: <052601c2bc97$6d6b5730$0301a8c0@Frodo>
Message-ID: <b045hh+iqhe@eGroups.com>


> 'It is time,' he said, 'for me to tell you what I should have told you
> five years ago, Harry.  

Well, I'm certainlly delighted that the book is finally coming out BUT I hope 
they take the time and trouble to edit it properly, so we don't find errors like 
dead parents coming back out of a wand in the wrong order.  Or Dumbledore 
telling Harry that he should have told him something 5 years ago, when it's 
been less than 5 years since they first met.




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Wed Jan 15 17:44:01 2003
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz <absinthe@mad.scientist.com>)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 17:44:01 -0000
Subject: Potter Slash: Rowling speaks...through her lawyers.
Message-ID: <b046l1+g2tb@eGroups.com>

http://news.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=13492003

Big disclaimer about me: I don't read fanfic because I'd rather read 
the original author's character and plot development especially in an 
evolving series like Potter. Also, I don't have a problem with fanfic 
writers or fanfic fans: to each his own.

Milz 




From urbana at charter.net  Wed Jan 15 18:01:03 2003
From: urbana at charter.net (Anne <urbana@charter.net>)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 18:01:03 -0000
Subject: News from Bloomsbury - finally!
In-Reply-To: <b045hh+iqhe@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b047kv+qojo@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "joanne0012 
<Joanne0012 at a...>" <Joanne0012 at a...> wrote:
> 
> > 'It is time,' he said, 'for me to tell you what I should have 
told you
> > five years ago, Harry.  
> 
> Well, I'm certainlly delighted that the book is finally coming out 
BUT I hope 
> they take the time and trouble to edit it properly, so we don't 
find errors like 
> dead parents coming back out of a wand in the wrong order.  Or 
Dumbledore 
> telling Harry that he should have told him something 5 years ago, 
when it's 
> been less than 5 years since they first met.

I wondered about that too, Joanne. Perhaps Dumbledore won't actually 
be telling Harry "everything" until the end of Harry's fifth year. 
But you're right, if that occurs at the beginning of the book, it 
would be only 4 years since Harry and DD met at Hogwarts.

Anne U
(who believes there are 157 days until OOP-day)




From HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com  Wed Jan 15 18:16:51 2003
From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com (HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 15 Jan 2003 18:16:51 -0000
Subject: New poll for HPFGU-OTChatter 
Message-ID: <1042654611.454.32130.w35@yahoogroups.com>


Enter your vote today!  A new poll has been created for the 
HPFGU-OTChatter group:

When and how do you plan to buy your 
copy of Harry Potter and the Order of 
the Phoenix? 

  o I'll stand in that long line at (name of bookstore) so I can buy the hardcover version at the stroke of midnight on June 21, 2003. 
  o I'll pre-order it through  (an online book vendor) so that it arrives in my mailbox on June 21. 
  o I'll wait till the queues clear out and buy it a few days later at a bookstore. 
  o I'll wait till the paperback version comes out and buy that at a discount store. 
  o I won't buy OoP, I'll just get on the waiting list for it at my local library 
  o My eyes are tired, so I don't plan to read OoP. 
  o Harry Who?  


To vote, please visit the following web page:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/surveys?id=1025261  

Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are 
not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups 
web site listed above.

Thanks!

 







From cindysphinx at comcast.net  Wed Jan 15 18:19:50 2003
From: cindysphinx at comcast.net (Cindy C. <cindysphinx@comcast.net>)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 18:19:50 -0000
Subject: Glory be! The ratio! (OoP)
In-Reply-To: <b041a2+3i9v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b048o6+2ibk@eGroups.com>

David wrote:

> Linear: R2 0.90, B6 1100, B7 1250
> Quadratic: R2 0.99 B6 1400, B7 1900
> Exponential: R2 0.94 B6 1300, B7 1700


Can I just mention how incredibly exhilarating it is when someone 
whispers sweet equations in my ear?  :-D

Cindy -- who was with you up to "let's quarrel about the data"




From heidit at netbox.com  Wed Jan 15 19:11:12 2003
From: heidit at netbox.com (heiditandy)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 14:11:12 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Potter Slash: Rowling speaks...through her lawyers.
In-Reply-To: <b046l1+g2tb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <05fc01c2bcc9$dfd51f90$0301a8c0@Frodo>

Milz wrote: 
> 
> http://news.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=13492003
> 
> Big disclaimer about me: I don't read fanfic because I'd rather read 
> the original author's character and plot development especially in an 
> evolving series like Potter. Also, I don't have a problem with fanfic 
> writers or fanfic fans: to each his own.
> 

Just a little clarification - this article was posted to The Scotsman
well over a week ago, and so far, the only HP fanfic site to get a
letter from Rowling's lawyers was RestrictedSection.org, which hosts
both NC-17 stories with heterosexual couples (harry/hermione,
lily/james, ron/hermione) and gay couples (remus/sirius, harry/draco),
as well as fics that are NC17 because of violence, and which contain no
sexual content at all. 

Further, their concern was not that the fics were being written or
shared, but that they were being shared in a medium that kids would be
able to access - even though RS.org has a *Do Not Enter If You're Under
18* page that you have to click past, the law firm seemed to think that
this would encourage kids under 18 to go on and read. 


heidi





From dradamsapple at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 15 20:09:56 2003
From: dradamsapple at yahoo.com (dradamsapple <dradamsapple@yahoo.com>)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 20:09:56 -0000
Subject: Couplethink (late response to Tabouli, Amy, Judy)
In-Reply-To: <b034hp+o7an@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b04f6k+d6mq@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Ebony <selah_1977 at y...>" 
<selah_1977 at y...> wrote:
> You guys drove me out of lurkdom for this one. 
> 
> Tabouli wrote:
> 
> "The fact of the matter is that I have, to date, *always* been 
> happier when
> single than when in a sexual relationship. *Always*. (cue for 
friends 
> to coo
> "oooh, but that's because you just haven't met the right guy..."). 
>

Ebony replies;
 
> YES, Tabouli.  Yes, yes, and yes again.  I am 25 and have been 
single 
> for two years. 

>>snip<<

> So.  Am I unhappy?  Deep down?
> 
> Not really.


>>snip<<

 
> I think everything happens for a reason.  And the reason why I 
didn't 
> marry my ex, and broke up with him, is because I was hungry for 
> something else out of life. 
> And right now in my life, I want it to be about me.  Someday I may 
> marry, and then I'll have to share.  But the past two years and 
more 
> have been bliss. 


Ok, Ebony, 

You have gotten *me* out of semi-lurkdom on this topic.

I am soo thrilled to see someone of "your" generation (I sound about 
Dumbledors age, don't I??) finally come out and say this; that it is 
ok to be single. 
 
I was three weeks shy of my 29th birthday when I got married and I 
thought *I* was old! I was feeling so pressured to *fit in*.  (I was 
mostly putting pressure on myself though.)  Most of my friends were 
already working on having children by then.  But as I look back, I do 
not feel that 29 is *old*.  I will never, ever, be able to devote as 
much time to myself as when I could when I was in my twenties, and 
that's a good thing.  (I'm currently 42, with a husband, house, three 
kids, a dog and a turtle *ugh! I sound so conventionally suburban!!
*)  The time and energy that is used when one is in a "committed' 
relationship, being a legal union or not, in overwhelming.  As I have 
stated to many, younger friends and co-workers,  you not only *marry* 
the person, but you *marry*  everthing that comes along with that 
person, be it parents, ex-spouses, children, bank accounts, smelly 
feet (eewww!!) or what have you.  And you better be prepared for it, 
as I have experienced, many younger people are not.  That's not to 
say that a happy union can not happen if both partners are younger.  
I know of many, many, *high school sweethearts* who are still going 
strong 20, 30, and 40 years later. But I think in today's society is 
becoming more rare.  

I don't know the statistics on the divorce rate among twenty 
somethings, but from my own personal experience with family members 
and freinds, the majority of the reasons why those marriages ended in 
divorce was that either one or both of the *betrothed* hadn't grown 
up yet, and I don't mean physically.  And I don't mean that in a 
condescending manner either, but rather that they had not really 
discovered themselves yet, and were not in a position to share their 
life with someone when they were still learning about themselves.  

One of the things that I am most happy about, in getting married at 
age 29, was that I really didn't have any regrets.  I knew who I was 
at the time, and was pretty secure in being me. And that's when I met 
my husband. There are things that I would like to do in the future, 
with my husband, but I know that I don't know what life has in store 
for me:   my father passed away last March; my mother is getting 
older; my father-in-law is a pretty sick diabetic, and in a nursing 
home; kids need braces; $$$MONEY$$$;  unfortunately, I don't have a 
Prof. Trelawny to advise me, or warn me of what is going to happen.   
I have chosen this life, and although it can be frustrating at times, 
it is very rewarding for me, and I actually feel very lucky.  That's 
not to say it is for everyone.   

I applaud you (both Ebony and Tabouli, and whovever else feels the 
same) in recognizing this.  Enjoy your lives, and relish in that fact 
that you can do anything you want, any time.  Do not let society 
pressure you into conforming to the *norm*.  No one knows you better 
than you.  And besides, what IS the *norm*?    
 
> >snip<<

> Ebony says;
>
 One of the reasons why I think I'm able to 
> function as a single without getting wibbly every time I think 
about 
> being solo is because my life is filled with people who love me.  
I'm 
> integrated into so many fabrics... 

>>snip<<
> 
> So I guess I say all this to say that it's going to take a pretty 
> special man for me now.  My world's expanded so much more widely 
> now... so when I'm on a date, and a guy tells me he doesn't like to 
> travel, he likes to stay home and play video games, and doesn't 
seem 
> to really dig me doing all this stuff, then why bother?  He's not 
> going to change me and I've no interest in changing him.  Let him 
> have his sofa.  :)
 
> --Eb

YES! Ebony!  The magic word:  CHANGE!
Do not ever change yourself for the sake of ANYONE else, be it a 
romantic partner or platonic friendship.  People have to love you for 
you.  I can't tell you how many of my girlfriends in college would 
say that about their boyfriends at the time. "Oh, he'll stop going 
out with his friends when we are engaged."  Or this one, "He wants me 
to quit smoking but I really don't want to."  It is so sad that 
people believe that they can change others.  

Well, enough preaching from me.
Onto RL issues... taking my daughter to the doctor for a ?sinus 
infection!

And on a lighter note, let's start a countdown to June 21, 2003!!

Anna . . . (who really didn't mean to get to preachy here ;-p)





From charisjulia at hotmail.com  Wed Jan 15 20:11:58 2003
From: charisjulia at hotmail.com (charisjulia <charisjulia@hotmail.com>)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 20:11:58 -0000
Subject: The Four Loves
In-Reply-To: <F155rfA0gvVsJtmMxOp0001165a@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <b04fae+n0kc@eGroups.com>

This is a bit late (aren't I always?), but as it's mainly factual 
information I thought I'd send it anyway.


Wendy wrote:
>So. Instead, I'm just going to ask a question: Will someone with 
better 
>knowledge of the Greek language than I have (which means probably 
everyone 
><g>) please post pronunciations for the Four Loves? Well, I can 
guess at a 
>couple of them, but storge and agape have really left me 
wondering. :-)

Well, if what you're asking for is the Erasmian accent I'm afraid I'm 
not going to be much use to you never really having studied Greek 
from a foreign point of view. I can make a stab, however, at 
attempting to explain the modern Greek pronunciation if that's any 
help. And I've added some etymological tit?bits and common contextual 
phrases as well just in case anybody's interested. Melody is just 
going to hate me for this. I'm not entirely sure that it's going to 
help resolve her ponderings on the four loves * at all* :--) If 
there's one view it forwards it's that all four loves are 
inextricably intertwined with each other...


Eros: "e" as in "elephant" and not, say, "era". The modern Greek 
retains the ending of the other cases even in the nominative and 
therefore is "erotas". Eros is the Greek name for Cupid, the winged 
god of love. The verd is "erotevomai", eg "to fall in love". Even 
though the one is derived from the other the feeling the word gives 
is a very far cry from those an English speaker would associate with 
the word "erotic". Eros is a romantic word. "Erotiki eksomologese" is 
a confession of eros, "erotiko gramma" a letter about eros, a love 
letter. And interestingly enough platonic love is also an 
eros: "platonikos erotas". The phrase "kanw erota" (literally "I do 
eros") is the romantic way to refer to sex; the equivalent of the 
English "to make love". So even though the word definitely has very 
strong sexual connotations, it mustn't be confused with lust or 
desire (that would be "epithemia" of "pothos") It's a love, a 
passion, a "pathos" and you feel it in your brest, not your loins. 
One of the most famous quotations about eros is 
from "Antigone": "Eros anikate maxan..." Eros against whom none can 
fight. . . Or Zenodotos' "A Statue or Eros": 
"Who carved Love
and placed him by
this fountain,
thinking
he could control
such fire
with water?"


Philia: (You will forgive me, won't you, if I just indulge a minute 
in a spot of deranged nitpickiness? Unless there's some weird English 
thing going on here that I don't know about, it is fil*ia* and not 
fil*os*. A filos is a male friend. It refers to a person, not a 
feeling or concept. ) 
Pronounciation: as you read it; the "i"s as in "immaterial" . Simply 
means friendship, really. Buuuut... the verb is "philw" (I'm using 
the w here instead of an omega. Sounds like an "o") which means to 
kiss. In any way. And "phili" means "a kiss". Of any kind. And then, 
well, there are words like "philomousos" which are quite innocent 
(=a  friend of the muses, the arts) and words like "paedophile" which 
are not. And * then* there's words like "Philip", the friend of 
horses... But lets not go there, shall we? ;-)


Storge: the "e" at the end (and I'd say this goes for the Erasmian 
accent too) is not silent. It is pronounced and sounds like the 
first "e" in "electricity". 
As Simon pointed out this means "affection". Derived from the 
verb "stergw". It is generally something you show rather than feel, 
I'd say. You kiss someone with stoge, you smile at them with stroge, 
you caress them with stroge. If you feel it you generally do so while 
doing something of the above rather than all the time. And as Simon 
pointed out this love is compatible with all the others. 


Agape: <deep intake of breath> How is it pronounced? Oooh, tough one
 
Again the "e" audible and like in "electricity". The "a"s sound like 
the "a" in "anatomy". And in an a english context that should be 
enough really ... in actual Greek of course there's the problem of 
the "g" which isn't in fact a "g" at all but a "gama", the third 
letter of the Greek alphabet and which sounds like... er... it sounds 
like... well, basically like no sound I've ever come across in 
English. Sorry. Maybe if you try gurgling something? Or growling, 
yes, that might work... It's a very guttural sound. If you say it 
loud enough you can feel it reverberating against the back of your 
palette. 

Anyway, agape... Verb is "agapw", "I love". And basically it can 
refer to love of any type. Agape is the word used in the Greek 
version in Corinthians I 13. "Agapetos/e" or agapemenos/e" mean loved 
one, beloved and are usually used to begin letters. If you were 
engaging in one of those "erotikes eksomologeseis" what you'd say 
would probably be "S'agapw!" (I love you) and if you were cooing at a 
baby you'd be very likely to call it your "agape mou glukia!" (my 
sweet love). 


Of course the current meaning of the words in modern Greek is not 
necessarily the same as that which CS Lewis ascribed to them nor is 
their usage necessarily the same as it was in Pericles' Athens or the 
Bible. Just thought you might be interested.

Charis Julia





From john at queerasjohn.com  Wed Jan 15 20:13:26 2003
From: john at queerasjohn.com (Queer as John)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 20:13:26 +0000
Subject: Slash and homosexuality
In-Reply-To: <F206hwzfcc9teYMaEAT0001388e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <BA4B7166.573C%john@queerasjohn.com>

Meira wrote:

> There's a difference between slash and sex, it's not the same (As so many
> people pointed out around here).

*snip*
 
> Some people might not like HP slashed or NC-17-ed. There's nothing wrong
> with that either. That does *not* make them homophobes, that simply means
> that gay characters do not fit into their own image of the Potterverse as
> they see it. Even though gay people *do* exist in the real world.

But the very point is that this dislike IS homophobia, because it's not
rational. Not once has anyone put forward a reason other than "it doesn't
fit my image". It's like responding "because" to the question "why?".

If one's image of the HPverse is one in which gay people don't exist -- and
can't exist without "ruining" it -- then one must be prepared to receive
charges of homophobia.

> Last (for now) - Homosexual-related issues (and please accept that I'm not
> trying to insult anyone here, I just use the word that means percisely that.
> 'Homo' means 'same', and sexual, well, you know what *that* means *g*):

Actually, "homo" means man. Which excludes lesbians. And, going back to the
Grecolatinate roots, could be argued to include anyone who loves men. But I
digress, and will assume that whenever you say "homosexual" you mean "same
sex attracted".

> I would very much love to learn more about how one person turns out to be
> gay, whether it's because he decided to be gay, or because of genetics. I
> assumed that scientists were still arguing over this subject.

Okay, this'll be long.

There is an excellent book by Eric Marcus called _Is_It_a_Choice?_ which I
highly recommend as an introduction.

Online, PFLAG (Parents, Families and Friends of Lesbians and Gays) says:

"No one knows exactly how sexual orientation and gender identity determined.
However, experts agree that it is a complicated matter of genetics, biology,
psychological and social factors.? For most people, sexual orientation and
gender identity are shaped at any early age. While research has not
determined a cause, homosexuality and gender variance are not the result of
any one factor like parenting or past experiences. It is never anyone's
"fault" if they or their loved one grows up to be gay, lesbian, bisexual or
transgender. If you are asking yourself why you or your loved one is GLBT,
consider asking yourself another question: Why ask why? Does your response
to a GLBT person depend on knowing why they are GLBT? Regardless of cause,
GLBT people deserve equal rights and to be treated fairly."

Genes certainly come into it -- there's a study where identical twins are
two times more likely to both be gay than other siblings -- but may not be
the be-all and end-all. Nevertheless, I've yet to hear of a study not funded
by some gay-hating Christian institute which claims that it's a choice or a
decision.

There is some question about whether being gay is actually genetic or if
it's determined in the womb. It may be a combination of both. Like Barb, I
don't care if it's genetic or fixed before birth. I know that I'm gay. I am
attracted to men, and not attracted to women. I know that I didn't make a
*choice* or a *decision* to be gay. It's not a "preference" in the same way
that I prefer sausage to bacon, because I can explain why: the taste of the
spices in the sausage taste better to me than bacon. I don't feel the same
way about being attracted to men and not women.

> I think that hating others just because they are a bit different is stupid,
> but it's every person's right.

I disagree. I believe that hate is not a right and that people should fight
it wherever it occurs. Because even if the person who hates isn't violent,
it's that atmosphere which leads to violence.

> Those who prefer mustard have all the right to hate the ketchup-lovers, but
> what they can't do is force the ketchup-lovers to start consuming mustard
> instead of ketchup, or throw rotten tomatoes at them.

See above for the food analogy :D

*grin* Oh, and mushrooms on pizza? That's not only immoral but repulsive and
disgusting! *laughs*

> Questions:
> 
> John: "I know, that's something of a strawman, but it's a relevant one."
> 
> [1] What's a "strawman"?

A strawman is a rhetorical term. Think of it as a boxer making a sack full
of straw in order to punch it. We make strawmen to knock down with our
arguments. One common criticism of strawmen is that it is easy for them to
become unrepresentative of what's actually said. This may not be because of
any disingenuity on the part of the writer, but rather implications which he
is referring to from the other writers' points.

>> Barb wrote: "I firmly believe that scientists who have determined there is a
>> genetic and/or biological basis to our orientations are correct,
>> based in part on a great deal of anecdotal testimony available
>> concerning the unchangeable nature of orientation (in addition to
>> the more scientific studies).  I also believe, however, that those
>> who claim orientation should not be protected under hate-crimes laws
>> because they call it a "choice" should see the hypocrisy in their
>> stand, when many of them are direct beneficiaries of their choice of
>> religion being protected under law."
 
> Meira wrote: This is something that I'm not sure I understand entirely.
> (hehe... y'see? I learned something... try and understand what someone says
> *before* replying on it, much trouble can be avoided this way. ^-^)

What I believe Barb was saying is that there are two basic arguments about
how same sex attraction is determined: choice or not-choice (genetic). I
think that people like Barb and I are so used to familiarity with these
arguments that we sometimes forget to explain the logic behind them fully!
Let me try.

Many people use the choice argument to argue that, since it's "only a
choice", gay people shouldn't be entitled to the same benefits and civil
rights as other people. For example, they argue that same-gender couples
could "choose" to be attracted to -- and married -- to the opposite gender,
but they "choose" not to, so they don't deserve the same legal marriage
rights.

Does that help?

> [2] Yes it is *g*. But please take note that in Israel, there are three
> official languages: Hebrew, Arabic and English.

*grins* Well, seeing as my Ivrit is limited to "hamishpara, shel arutz
shalosh" (tomorrow[?], on channel three) "boker tov" (good morning) and
other pleasantries, and for some reason "g'dul shdaim" (large bosoms), and
my Arabic is similarly limited, I guessed.

> John: "I'm happy to provide links" (about homosexuality and genes)
> 
> [3] I'd love that, thanks.

Let me know if you want more than the PFLAG stuff above.

> My own, personal perspective on things is that I try to decide who's
> opinions matter to me and whose don't. I found that that makes me far less
> prone to being insulted and upset.

Oh, I see. Well, the opinions of almost everybody on HPFGU-OTChatter matter
to me. As I said to someone the other day, to me, OTChatter is the place
where I chat with like-minded people about non-HP things. It has been ever
since I created it all those many moons ago. The very first place I came out
of the closet was in an HPFGU chat.

I generally count OTChatter as an open-minded, dare I say 'liberal' sort of
place. I tend to think that the people who are off crusading against gay
rights are also crusading against Harry Potter, and so not that likely to be
here! I also tend to think that HP fans, given the emphasis on slavery and
racism in HP, are less likely to hold homophobic opinions. In short, I
empathise with the people on this list. They're "people like me".

I was stunned and surprised by the words that people used to express
themselves, because I didn't think that "people like us" held homophobic
opinions. That, I think, is why this whole thread has been so...odd, for
lack of a better word. Homophobia isn't supposed to *happen* here.

--John

______________________________________

Queer as John || john at queerasjohn.com

AIM, YM & LJ @ QueerAsJohn || www.queerasjohn.com

"There's nowt as queer as folk."  --English proverb
______________________________________




From sushi at societyhappens.com  Wed Jan 15 20:39:35 2003
From: sushi at societyhappens.com (Sushi)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 14:39:35 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Slash and homosexuality
In-Reply-To: <BA4B7166.573C%john@queerasjohn.com>
References: <F206hwzfcc9teYMaEAT0001388e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030115142154.026429f0@mail.societyhappens.com>


>Actually, "homo" means man. Which excludes lesbians. And, going back to the
>Grecolatinate roots, could be argued to include anyone who loves men. But I
>digress, and will assume that whenever you say "homosexual" you mean "same
>sex attracted".


         Technically, you're both right.  However, "homo" meaning man or 
him is Latin, and "homo" meaning same is bastardized Greek (homogenization 
is another word to use this root).  Since the opposite of homosexual is 
heterosexual, and heterosexual's prefix is from the Greek "etero", it can 
be presumed (since the guys who came up with these terms back in the 
Victorian era were real sticklers, and despite that wonderful line posted 
here yesterday it was certainly a bastardization of Greek) that 
"homosexual" has a prefix from "omo".  As far as I'm aware, the modern 
Green words for homosexual and heterosexual and omophulophilos and 
eterophulophilikos.

         Just don't ask me what's up with the "philos" and "philikos" 
endings.  I'm better at research than Greek. ;)

Sushi, pedant for hire


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From htfulcher at comcast.net  Wed Jan 15 21:03:24 2003
From: htfulcher at comcast.net (marephraim <htfulcher@comcast.net>)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 21:03:24 -0000
Subject: A suggestion re OoP
Message-ID: <b04ias+gckh@eGroups.com>

In the UK there are adult's and children's versions (same text, 
different covers). May I suggest that we all be certain to get a 
copy of the adult edition to help convince the media that HP is not 
just for kids!

Incidentally, Amazon.UK (and, I'm sure, other vendors) allows pre-
orders of both editions with a current 50% discount. I've already 
put in a pre-order for both editions.

REJOICE!!!!!




From timregan at microsoft.com  Wed Jan 15 21:57:24 2003
From: timregan at microsoft.com (Tim Regan <timregan@microsoft.com>)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 21:57:24 -0000
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?What's_Di's_husband=92s_first_name=3F?=
Message-ID: <b04lg4+a0rl@eGroups.com>

Hi All,

My nine year old daughter has a class assignment to read a 
biography. She chose and read "Conversations with J.K. Rowling" by 
Lindsey Fraser. Part of the report back to the rest of her class is 
to make an imaginary address book for the biography's subject. We're 
having fun filling that up. But now I'm stuck. I believe JKR's 
sister is called Dianne Rowling Moore (though the web site listing 
that name on Google is no longer available). Does anybody know Di's 
husband's christian name?


Thanks,


Dumbledad.


PS Other suggestions gratefully received too. So far she's put in 
Miss Shepherd, Sean Harris, Mr & Mrs Potter, Christopher Little, and 
Kris (contact at Scholastic). Steven Kloves, Christopher Columbus, 
and Alfonso Cuar?n are under debate but she's reluctant to put 
people in who aren't in the biography, as that would step slightly 
outside remit given by the teacher. Kids!





From lrcjestes at earthlink.net  Wed Jan 15 22:12:34 2003
From: lrcjestes at earthlink.net (siriusgeologist <lrcjestes@earthlink.net>)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 22:12:34 -0000
Subject: Vision of Characters (was:  Slash and homosexuality)
In-Reply-To: <BA4B7166.573C%john@queerasjohn.com>
Message-ID: <b04mci+naq4@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Queer as John <john at q...> 
wrote:
> Meira wrote:
> 
> > There's a difference between slash and sex, it's not the same 
(As so many
> > people pointed out around here).
> 
> *snip*
>  
> > Some people might not like HP slashed or NC-17-ed. There's 
nothing wrong
> > with that either. That does *not* make them homophobes, that 
simply means
> > that gay characters do not fit into their own image of the 
Potterverse as
> > they see it. Even though gay people *do* exist in the real world.
> 
> But the very point is that this dislike IS homophobia, because 
it's not
> rational. Not once has anyone put forward a reason other than "it 
doesn't
> fit my image". It's like responding "because" to the 
question "why?".
> 
> If one's image of the HPverse is one in which gay people don't 
exist -- and
> can't exist without "ruining" it -- then one must be prepared to 
receive
> charges of homophobia.
> 

I strongly disagree with this opinion, John.  Even though the text 
might read as you interpreted it, I don't think Meira is saying that 
homosexuality can't exist without ruining the world of Harry Potter 
for them.  They are saying they don't percieve any of the characters 
as gay at this time.  And a lot of times the answer to why that is 
*is* simply because.  

That said, we all need to remind our selves that very few of us saw 
Angelina as black before she was described as such in GoF.  So, yes, 
there is loads of room for that to be clarified.  Hopefully OoP will 
clarify some of these issues. (YAY for release date.)

Let's put this in a different context.  It's really more comparable 
to casting discussions than it is to one's own feelings about 
homosexuality.  

I can say that I can't picture Russell Crowe as Sirius.  That image 
leaves a very strong bad flavor in my mouth. Why? I dunno, because.  
It's a feel you have for the character that isn't always based on 
the author's description.  And it doesn't necessarily reflect a anti-
Crowe phobia.  I might like him in other parts but NOT as Sirius.  
There are some fan artists who I thoroughly agree with their vision 
of the character and others that, while I see the talent in their 
work, their vision of the characters face makes me go 
ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwww.  Why can't that be said of their personalities as 
well.   

Your interpretation of Sirius might include the assumption that he 
*is* gay and having a torrid long term affair with Remus.  My 
interpretation is that he's very definitely heterosexual (yeah so 
it's for my own fantasy benefit...why?...I dunno, because).  Does 
that make me homophobic because I don't see Sirius as gay?  I don't 
think so :::shrug::: 

If JKR revises his (Sirius') description to indicate he is gay, will 
I stop reading? ....no. I don't think it would crash anyones HP 
world if he was written in canon as gay, because it would be JKR 
changing our perception, and they are her characters.  But at the 
same time, I'm not fond of Sirius/Remus stories because it isn't how 
*I* see Sirius or Remus. I don't think that makes me homophobic 
either anymore than not being able to see Russell Crowe as Sirius 
makes me a Crowephobe. 

(Is this helping at all? ) 

I think that *that* is what people are saying in respect to sexual 
orientation in this universe.  They aren't trying to say that it 
doesn't exist in the wizard community or that they don't want it to 
exist in the wizard community.  Just that their impressions of the 
characters as depicted to date do not indicate any homosexual 
characters (the canon given to date barely gives the impression of 
heterosexuality either ... ).  

It doesn't even mean that they wouldn't welcome one (or 
more...before I get accused of tokenism) if one (or more) were 
introduced, or if any existing characters were demonstrated to be 
gay.  It doesn't mean that anyone will necessarily go ewwwwwwwwwwwww 
if homosexuality *is* revealed, mentioned, characterized (choose the 
right word).  

I haven't kept up with all the back and forths of this discussion, 
so if I missed some big issue, I apologize.  I hope the "casting" 
comparison helps clarify where some are coming from.  

Carole
I am not a Crowephobe, honest, so I haven't seen Beautiful Mind 
because he's in it...that doesn't mean 
anything...Gladiator...weeel...haven't seen that either...ok maybe I 
*am* a crowephobe....

PS.  HAPPY BIRTHDAY HEIDI!!!!  Such exciting news about OoP!  
YAHOO!!!





From timregan at microsoft.com  Wed Jan 15 22:22:19 2003
From: timregan at microsoft.com (Tim Regan <timregan@microsoft.com>)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 22:22:19 -0000
Subject: Glory be! The ratio! (OoP)
In-Reply-To: <b041a2+3i9v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b04mur+do5s@eGroups.com>

Hi All,

---  "Davidwrote:
> That gives the following:
> 
> Linear: R2 0.90, B6 1100, B7 1250
> Quadratic: R2 0.99 B6 1400, B7 1900
> Exponential: R2 0.94 B6 1300, B7 1700

What does R2, B6, and B7 stand for? I should know but don't (and am 
not near stats books to check)

> Indeed the best fit quartic predicts 500 pages for book 6 
> and *minus* 1800 for book 7.  

Wow - we have scientific proof that JKR and her lawyers are going to 
remove slash fanfiction from the web. At least 1800 pages of it ;-)

> Why should the books be getting longer?  If we can explain 
> that we might have a basis for prediction.

<straw man>
Each character has a minimum amount of text required to keep them 
moving through the plot. Ditto for each relationship between 
characters. The rate of character additions is far greater than the 
rate of character removals. Hence the books must grow.
</straw man>

Whilst we're all feeding our inner geek, what I'd like to see is a 
pictorial analysis of each of the HP novels using a visualization 
technique like Text Arc http://www.textarc.org/ I predict that where 
low frequency nouns appear repeatedly throughout a text they are 
foreshadowing a plot development in a later book. I could test the 
theory on I, II, and III, and if it's true use IV to predict the 
content of V and above. Even if it didn't work it woud make a great 
Nimbus 200X presentation (X > 3). Now all I need is electronic 
versions of the texts. Ho hum.

Cheers,

Dumbledad.




From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 15 22:23:32 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve <bboy_mn@yahoo.com>)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 22:23:32 -0000
Subject: Rant:Freedom/ Slash/Lawyers./Parents/Common Sense 
In-Reply-To: <05fc01c2bcc9$dfd51f90$0301a8c0@Frodo>
Message-ID: <b04n14+nbnc@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "heiditandy" <heidit at n...> wrote:
> Milz wrote: 
> > 
> ... the only HP fanfic site to get aletter from Rowling's lawyers 
> was RestrictedSection.org, ...edited...
> 
> ...edited... even though RS.org has a *Do Not Enter If You're
> Under 18* page that you have to click past, the law firm seemed 
> to think that this would encourage kids under 18 to go on and 
> read. 
> 
> 
> heidi

bboy_mn:

...ooowwww... I hate that. That is the most lame and pathetic excuse
imaginable, especially if it comes from parents. (Which makes my
following response slightly off your topic.)

There are more and more parents today who are abdicating their
parental responsibility with the excuse, 'if we tell them not to, it
will just encourage them to do it'. 

[My deepest response to that can't be printed in a public formun, so
here is an alternate response.]

It may be true, but I don't think so. If you tell your children NO, if
you set and define limits, if you give them boundaries and values,
then your children at least have something to go on. They at least
have an idea of what you don't want them to do. They have a sense of
limits and boundaries, and a guideline for right and wrong. Don't do
that, and you cast your children adrift in the ocean in a lifeboat
with out oars.

True they are going to make their own decisions, but would you rather
kids made a decision in a vacuum, or would it be better for the
parents to have laid out these limits and guidelines? Would it be
better for a parent to have expressed some values rather than just
assume the kids would figure it out?

If you don't tell your kids, how are they ever going to know? 

Back to the [*Do Not Enter If You're Under 18*]. It's not my job or
the job of RestrictedSection.org to teach your kids values. That's the
parents job, and if the parents have been doing their job, it's
unlikely that their kids will ever come to the RestrictedSection of
the library. It's the job of the RestictedSection.org to give fair and
clear warning, which they have made every effort to do. After that, it
is up to the values and judgment of the reader to make their own free
choice regarding whether to proceed or not.

How is it possible for an organization like a free non-profit fan
fiction archive to police this. They can't. Even a lot of commerial
sites that go through all kinds of "[] Check this box if your parent
said it was OK" or "return this email to acknowledge parental
permission" are just bogus attempts at creating an illusion of safety.

You can't get a Yahoo profile/webpage/email unless you are at least
13. So what does Yahoo do to verify this? They have you enter your age
in your profile but there is nothing other than your word to verify
it. (Actually, in the on-line world, anyone with a credit card number
is instantly an adult.) You could be 8 and tell your profile you were
18, and that would allow you to get a profile and get into all the
porn photo archive sites (or so I've heard). Yet what can Yahoo do?
There are a big corporation who makes lots of money, yet the expense
of administering a detailed verified profile for each person would
mean that they would have to shutdown. Really, what can they do? Have
you mail a photocopy of your drivers licenes? But a photocopy could
very easily be a scan, and a scan can be manipulated in a photo
editor. So how about actually mailing your drivers license to Yahoo?
Well, first of all, that would mean no drivers license for two weeks.
Second, I have friends who very carefully taked an Exacto knife or
razor blade and trimmed a number from one place on their license and
glued it to another place. Suddenly, they had aged quite dramatically.
So even that is not foolproof.

In the end, the foundation of a free society is freedom of choice. In
a free world, it is your job to police yourself and your kids (within
reasonable limits, of course). In a free society, you make choices and
you live with those choices. The alternative is the government and the
thought police make all your choices for you. Not a pleasant thought.

Freedom and Security-

I realize I'm off on a rant, but we are on a subject that presses a
hot button for me. There is this crazy notion that freedom=security,
but it doesn't. Freedom is not easy, it's not safe, it's not sure, and
it's not secure. CONSTANT VIGILANCE is the cost of freedom.

You may find this hard to believe, but there were people who imigrated
from communist Soviet Union to the US, and couldn't take the level of
insecurity that comes from living in a free country. No social
medicine, no quaranteed job, no free schools; to those people freedom
was a very scary thing, it meant a great deal of uncertainty in their
lives, and they couldn't take it, so they went back. They traded
freedom for security.

Free-
A mountian man is free. No one tells him when to get up. No one tells
him when to go to bed. No one tells him what to eat, how to think,
where to sleep, or what he can or can't do at any given time. Complete
freedom, but almost no security. Where is his next meal coming from?
It's coming from him. If he wants to eat, he has to go out and take it
off the land. If he wants to sleep, he has to create shelter. There
are no police to chase way the boogie man or the scary bears. No one
to keep the wolves at bay. There is no one to plow the snow, build
sewers, or streets. He has total freedom, but almost no security.

Security-
Prison is the ultimate security, your every need is taken care of; no
taxes, no car payment, no utilities, no insurance payments, no job to
worry about. Food, shelter, clothing, a regimented schedule are all
provided. No need to think or do or be; it's the perfectly secure
life. Hummm... but if it is perfectly safe (theoretically speaking)
and secure then why do we use it as punishement for people? Because
you lose the thing that a free spirit cherishes most; freedom. Prison
is secure, but it is not free.

Sadly, we fall into our easy comfortable middle class existance. Life
seems good, life seems easy, but the boodie man is always lurking. So
we trade away our freedom for a little more security, but the boogie
man doesn't go away, so we trade away a little more. Soon out of fear
that our nice un-demanding comfortable middle class life might be
threatened, we trade away all our freedom, confident that the
resulting police state will keep us safe. Then we discover our assumed
source of security, is the greatest threat to our lives. In our fear,
we have handed our lives over to the boogie man. When you trade away
all your freedom for the sake of security, in the end, you discover
that you have neither freedom nor security. Then a lot of blood has to
spill to regain the freedom that was casually traded away. The blood
of your sons and daughters is a pretty high price to pay because their
parents valued a false sense of security over the uncertainty of freedom. 

The Right to Keep and Bear Arms -
Ooowwww.... I know you didn't want to see that title. Let's look at
the Bill of Rights, signed 15 years after the Constitution. The
Constitutional Congress created a new form of government that stressed
balance of power. It was divided into 3 main branches Executive
(President), Judicial (Supreme Court), and Legislative (Congerss),
each with a some degree of accertable power and each with some degree
of power to overrule the other branches. Each keeping the other in
check; balance of power.

So why wasn't that good enough? You have a balance of power who's
purpose is to keep the government under control, why would you need
more? Now comes my favorite part; today, what are the FOUR branches of
government? I already gave you three in the previous paragraph, so it
should be an easy question. 

I'll pause here to mutter pointlessly while you think about it. We
have three branches of government that can regulate and balance each
other. Why would be need a fourth? We seem to have cover all the
bases. So have you guessed yet? The fourth branch of government is the
 people; an ENPOWERED people. 

While the three governmental branches keep each other in check, the
citizens granted themselves the power to keep ALL of the government in
check. The Bill of Rights is the peoples power to control their own
government; by force if necessary. In a sense, we granted ourselves
the right and the power to be subversive to our own government. My
government obeys me because I am a threat to that government. As a
citizen, I have POWER. I have the power to keep and own enough guns
that we as people can form our own citizen's army should the need ever
arise. And that army, who's allegance is to the people not the
government, has the right and the power to fight against 'all powers
foreign and DOMESTIC'. Read the Bill of Rights, it doesn't say
anything about guns and hunting. It says the citizen have the right to
have power over their government, even armed power if that's what it
takes.

Every freedom and power we guaranteed ourselves, is a means by which
governments through out history have oppressed and surpress it's own
people. We can speak, assemble, and associate with whom ever we want,
because that allows us the power to organize resistance against our
government should the need arise. I have power that prevents the
government for seizing my person or property without a duly swore
statement of a witness indicating that a law has been broken. The
government can not stop the press from diseminating information to the
citizens. No one can tell me what church to belong to. 

Each and every freedom we have supresses the means by which government
have oppressed people through out history. Give up one of these
freedoms, one of these rights, and you are giving the government a way
to oppress you. Don't be fool by the illusionary promise of security.

Why should I be allowed to have access to information about bomb
making? Because there may come a day when our government has become so
corrupt, so oppressive and so self-serving that I as an empowered
citizen may need to use that information to defend my country from
itself. If you give the govenment the power to suppress the
disemination of information then you give them the growing power to
enslave YOU.

Fan Fiction that is 'not for profit' falls under that protection of
the freedom of expression and the freedom to diseminate information
without government interference. 

Part of the very very high cost of freedom, is individual
responsibility. Tell your children what is right and wrong, and live
those values in your own life, and you won't have to worry about the
choices they make. You won't have to worry about what they do when
they encounter [*Do Not Enter If You're Under 18*]. 

Abdicate that responsibility or worse yet, turn it over to someone
else and I guarantee you, one day the federal boogie man will come
kicking down your door, and there will be nothing you can do to stop him. 

Freedom is never easy, but it is free.

That IS my story, and I AM sticking to it.

bboy_mn









From john at queerasjohn.com  Wed Jan 15 22:46:08 2003
From: john at queerasjohn.com (Queer as John)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 22:46:08 +0000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Vision of Characters (was:  Slash and
	homosexuality)
In-Reply-To: <b04mci+naq4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <BA4B9530.5784%john@queerasjohn.com>

Carole <lrcjestes at earthlink.net> said:

> I strongly disagree with this opinion, John.  Even though the text
> might read as you interpreted it, I don't think Meira is saying that
> homosexuality can't exist without ruining the world of Harry Potter
> for them. 

Sorry, I mustn't have been clear when I said:

> If one's image of the HPverse is one in which gay people don't exist -- and
> can't exist without "ruining" it -- then one must be prepared to receive
> charges of homophobia.

I didn't think in the slightest that Meira was saying that. However, someone
_did_ use the word "ruin" with regard to mental images and non-explicit
slash.

Hope that clears that up :)

With regard to your Russell Crowe analogy, I'm not so sure it fits. It's
more like a Food Analogy (I like sausage for X reason). You could probably
narrow down the reasons you didn't see Russell Crowe as Sirius: his eyes are
too beady, etc. Once again, nobody has come up with any reason other than
"because" for not liking slash.

--John

______________________________________

Queer as John || john at queerasjohn.com

AIM, YM & LJ @ QueerAsJohn || www.queerasjohn.com

"There's nowt as queer as folk."  --English proverb
______________________________________




From Malady579 at hotmail.com  Wed Jan 15 22:57:42 2003
From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody <Malady579@hotmail.com>)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 22:57:42 -0000
Subject: The Four Loves and wedding days  :D
In-Reply-To: <b04fae+n0kc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b04p16+lmcg@eGroups.com>

charisjulia wrote:

> I can make a stab, however, at
> attempting to explain the modern Greek pronunciation if that's any
> help. And I've added some etymological tit?bits and common
> contextual phrases as well just in case anybody's interested. Melody
> is just going to hate me for this. I'm not entirely sure that it's
> going to help resolve her ponderings on the four loves * at all* :--)

Oh honey, how can I *possibly* hate you on such as day like today?  :D

  As I said before, or at least I think I said, my pronunciation is a
bit odd at times.  Comes with living in the South and having a speech
impediment with words like "antithesis" and "chivalrous".  I did learn
ancient Greek, and then mainly how to read it.  So, my pronunciation
is completely up for scrutiny.  But I must say I learned a lot about
how to speak it in your post.  Thank you.  :)


And as a side note that I just *have* to share with y'all:

Y'all may remember a few posts ago when I said my brother is getting
married this summer?  Hehe.  Guess which day?  LOL  :)

Seems I will be at a passing...read OoP *during* the ceremony or
manage to pay attention to my only brother's blessed day?

Now guess which is *my* priority.  :D

Oh I am glad I am not part of the wedding party.  It would be
embarrassing to have OoP tucked behind the bridesmaid's bouquet.

Melody




From dehavensangel at hotmail.com  Wed Jan 15 23:07:20 2003
From: dehavensangel at hotmail.com (shinesse <dehavensangel@hotmail.com>)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 23:07:20 -0000
Subject: Pre-Ordering From Amazon
Message-ID: <b04pj8+e4cv@eGroups.com>

I have a few questions about pre-ordering OoP from Amazon.com. I 
read that Amazon will be offering the book at 40% off the retail 
value, which I think is great. I've shoped at Amazon before but 
never pre-ordered anything before. So what I was wondering was this. 
Has anyone here pre-ordered another Harry Potter book from Amazon? 
And if so when did you get your copy? I would really like to know. I 
want my copy on release day, even if I have to stand in line 
overnight. But if I can get it from Amazon with the discount that 
would be even better. 




From john at queerasjohn.com  Wed Jan 15 23:12:08 2003
From: john at queerasjohn.com (Queer as John)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 23:12:08 +0000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Pre-Ordering From Amazon
In-Reply-To: <b04pj8+e4cv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <BA4B9B48.5790%john@queerasjohn.com>

shinesse <dehavensangel at hotmail.com> said:

> Has anyone here pre-ordered another Harry Potter book from Amazon?
> And if so when did you get your copy?

Yep, I pre-ordered with Amazon for GoF and they sent it FedEx. And it
arrived after I was awake. Several *hours* after, in fact, because IIRC it
was a Saturday, and FedEx deliveries aren't guaranteed to be before 3 on a
Saturday.

For OOP, I'd be at my Barnes & Noble with my 10% discount card. :) If I were
in the US. As it is, I'll be at my local bookstore in the UK. :D

--J

______________________________________

Queer as John || john at queerasjohn.com

AIM, YM & LJ @ QueerAsJohn || www.queerasjohn.com

"There's nowt as queer as folk."  --English proverb
______________________________________




From sushi at societyhappens.com  Wed Jan 15 23:16:29 2003
From: sushi at societyhappens.com (Sushi)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 17:16:29 -0600
Subject: Argument for why people aren't interested in slash (was:
  Vision of Characters)
In-Reply-To: <BA4B9530.5784%john@queerasjohn.com>
References: <b04mci+naq4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030115164938.02655b50@mail.societyhappens.com>


>With regard to your Russell Crowe analogy, I'm not so sure it fits. It's
>more like a Food Analogy (I like sausage for X reason). You could probably
>narrow down the reasons you didn't see Russell Crowe as Sirius: his eyes are
>too beady, etc. Once again, nobody has come up with any reason other than
>"because" for not liking slash.
>
>--John


         If I may forward a theory on this?

         I can't speak from personal experience, as I'm a slash writer 
myself.  My mother, on the other hand, is very much the opposite.  She 
doesn't read slash (or fanfic - her area is the American Revolutionary 
War), I don't think she's ever even conceived of writing a gay character, 
and even if she did she wouldn't know how to start.  This is because it's 
simply outside her understanding.  She grew up in a very homophobic 
environment, but in the last few years (I think since she developed the dim 
notion that her youngest, moi, just might not be the straightest nail in 
the plank) she's at least started to try to make some effort to be more 
accepting even if she doesn't understand them.  She is beta reading an 
original novel of mine that just happens to prominently feature a gay 
couple, which is something she wouldn't have done a few years ago.

         The bottom line here is that it is something that falls so far 
outside some people's day-to-day understanding of the world that it just 
doesn't register.  It's not necessarily a bad thing - the ins and outs of, 
say, growing up in a traditional Chinese family would probably be lost on 
me (with my German-Scottish bloodline).  It's just a reflection on my life, 
a situation that doesn't directly apply to me.  Personally, I think Chinese 
culture is fascinating.  My husband, not so much.  He wouldn't be 
interested in a story that assumes someone knows something about that 
situation (and I'd likely have to muddle along myself).  It's not bigotry 
on his part, he's just got things that interest him and apply to him 
more.  A story that introduces the concept is a different matter; he 
wouldn't have such a hard time with that, and he'd demolish it just like 
every other book I've ever seen him touch.

         It all works out to a person having some connection with the story 
itself.  Universal appeal is almost impossible to create, especially when 
misunderstanding runs so deeply through human cultures.  While that 
misunderstanding can lead to prejudice, it can't be automatically taken 
*as* prejudice.  (This isn't meant to mean homophobia doesn't exist; 
someone once threatened to shoot me if I ever told him I was 
bisexual.  It's just as real as racism, and just as irrational.)  There are 
people in the world, though, who simply see preferring one's own gender or 
being Scottish or whatnot as a neutral part of life.  It's there, they have 
no special like or dislike for it, they may not have a taste for literature 
centering around said aspect because there isn't anything spectacular about 
it.  If it suddenly becomes a major feature in someone's life (ie, your 
youngest showing signs of liking girls as well as boys), in time it may 
become something that doesn't necessarily pique his or her interest but 
that doesn't distract from the rest of the story.  Alternately, a little 
bit of information presented in the right way may shift opinion, or it may 
not.  It may simply remain a neutral point of the world around someone, 
albeit one that's understood a little more clearly.

         Hope this wasn't too muddled. :)

Sushi


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk  Wed Jan 15 23:15:28 2003
From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 23:15:28 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Vision of Characters (was: Slash andhomosexuality)
References: <BA4B9530.5784%john@queerasjohn.com>
Message-ID: <3E25EB90.000001.46575@monica>


I'm beginning to think I'm the only one around here who not only doesn't
have a concrete opinion of the characters that cannot be shattered but in
some cases has multiple opinions of the characters.

For many of the characters I don't feel we have enough evidence to know
exactly hat they're like (and a lot of what we have is biased by the fact
that it's seen through the eyes of Harry Potter).

This is especially true for me for the kids - partly because there is so
much potential there for how they would develop in future. Personally I
adore Ron (anyone who could follow those bloody spiders despite his fear
gets massive points in my book, because I assure you if I had the spiders in
front of me and an army of death eaters planning to kill me slowly behind me
I'd have to stop and think about which scared me more!). Anyway, not my
point, sorry - as I was saying love Ron to bits, can see him being there in
the final battle steadfastly at Harry's side, courageously fighting against
the DEs no matter what the cost personally, but I could also see him turning
to Voldemort and betraying Harry, fuelled by his resentment of being the
youngest (youngest boy obviously but I doubt he feels as much need to
compete against Ginny) and always being measured against his brothers and
now being compared to his best friend (who after all didn't really do
anything to get the acclaim he has) and also because he wants to be someone,
and not a poor someone wearing hand me down clothes. Both those images can
quite happily live in my head at the same time.
Similarly I can see determined, quiet scolarly Remus in a loving
relationship (in the future) with Hermione and also mischievous, clever,
determined and downright sexy Remus taunting his long-time lover and
soulmate Sirius Black.

As a writer I like exploring those different views of the characters - I
write Lucius as just being a normal guy, not one of the bad guys, not one of
the good guys but just doing what he feels he needs to to survive, I also
write him as evil, abusive and total scum, I've read him in stories as
manipulating Severus into joining the Drak Lord and as being manipulated
into joining by Severus, I've read Snape as asexual, homosexual,
heterosexual, bisexual, as a total slut (and Sex God of Slytherin) and as a
virgin. And in all of those stories I've believed it totally because he was
(for me at any rate) totally in character. I've also read him written so ooc
that it just wasn't funny, either because the author is a bad writer or
because he/she just sees the character in a way that I can't wrap my mind
round but in none of those cases has it 'warped' my view of the books, if I
don't like the characterization I just forget about it. I admit some authors
have conjured up images so vivid that I am struck by them (and not always in
a good way) but never in a way that meant I couldn't see the character as I
had before.

So I am totally unable to get what people are talking about hen they refer
to certain images as ruining their view of the potterverse or changing it
fundamentally.
Am I alone in this? Am I totally nuts? Should I worry that I have multiple
versions of the characters dancing around in my brain?

K



From ression at hotmail.com  Wed Jan 15 23:28:26 2003
From: ression at hotmail.com (ER <ression@hotmail.com>)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 23:28:26 -0000
Subject: Slash and homosexuality
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030115142154.026429f0@mail.societyhappens.com>
Message-ID: <b04qqq+7h38@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Sushi <sushi at s...> wrote:
> 
> >Actually, "homo" means man. Which excludes lesbians. And, going 
back to the
> >Grecolatinate roots, could be argued to include anyone who loves 
men. But I
> >digress, and will assume that whenever you say "homosexual" you 
mean "same
> >sex attracted".
> 
> 
>          Technically, you're both right.  However, "homo" meaning 
man or 
> him is Latin, and "homo" meaning same is bastardized Greek 
(homogenization 
> is another word to use this root


Well ... my 1982 Concise OED clearly defines homosexual as meaning a 
person "who is sexually attracted only by persons of his or her own 
sex". So I'd say Queer-as-John was wrong. Unless usage has dictated a 
change since then, which of course is always possible. Who's got a 
recent dictionary?

Still as somebody once said, "Don't be sorry, my dear sir, for 
nothing could upset me today!"

ER





From ression at hotmail.com  Wed Jan 15 23:31:29 2003
From: ression at hotmail.com (ER <ression@hotmail.com>)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 23:31:29 -0000
Subject: News from Bloomsbury - finally!
In-Reply-To: <b047kv+qojo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b04r0h+ejah@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Anne <urbana at c...>" 
<urbana at c...> wrote:
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "joanne0012 
> <Joanne0012 at a...>" <Joanne0012 at a...> wrote:
> > 
> > > 'It is time,' he said, 'for me to tell you what I should have 
> told you five years ago, Harry.  

[snip]

> Perhaps Dumbledore won't actually 
> be telling Harry "everything" until the end of Harry's fifth year. 
> But you're right, if that occurs at the beginning of the book, it 
> would be only 4 years since Harry and DD met at Hogwarts.
> 

Of course, Dumbledore's line could be the closing line of Book V :))

ER





From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk  Wed Jan 15 23:30:56 2003
From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 23:30:56 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Dictioanries (was Re: Slash and homosexuality)
References: <b04qqq+7h38@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3E25EF30.000005.46575@monica>



-------Original Message-------

From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
Date: 15 January 2003 23:28:35
To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Slash and homosexuality


Well ... my 1982 Concise OED clearly defines homosexual as meaning a 
person "who is sexually attracted only by persons of his or her own 
sex". So I'd say Queer-as-John was wrong. Unless usage has dictated a 
change since then, which of course is always possible. Who's got a 
recent dictionary?

Still as somebody once said, "Don't be sorry, my dear sir, for 
nothing could upset me today!"

ER

Does anyone know a good online free dictionary? I needed a definition to use
in one of my essays last week and found nothing helpful, but I fully admit I
d left it to the last minute wand was fairly tired when I was searching.
(Essay title - what s the essence of coutliness? definition of courtliness
according to most dictionaries - behaviour suitable to a court, or worse
just listed as the noun derived from courtly.)

K



From john at queerasjohn.com  Wed Jan 15 23:33:30 2003
From: john at queerasjohn.com (Queer as John)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 23:33:30 +0000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Vision of Characters (was: Slash
	andhomosexuality)
In-Reply-To: <3E25EB90.000001.46575@monica>
Message-ID: <BA4BA04A.57A4%john@queerasjohn.com>

Kathryn Cawte said:

> So I am totally unable to get what people are talking about hen they refer
> to certain images as ruining their view of the potterverse or changing it
> fundamentally.
> Am I alone in this? Am I totally nuts? Should I worry that I have multiple
> versions of the characters dancing around in my brain?

No, I'm with you, Kathryn. I too can see Ron betraying Harry, as well as
dying heroically, being secretly in love with Harry, and so on.

I can also see Percy being a traitor, a double agent, or gay.

--John

______________________________________

Queer as John || john at queerasjohn.com

AIM, YM & LJ @ QueerAsJohn || www.queerasjohn.com

"There's nowt as queer as folk."  --English proverb
______________________________________




From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Wed Jan 15 23:35:37 2003
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David <dfrankiswork@netscape.net>)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 23:35:37 -0000
Subject: Glory be! The ratio! (OoP)
In-Reply-To: <b04mur+do5s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b04r8a+e4ua@eGroups.com>

I wrote:

> > Linear: R2 0.90, B6 1100, B7 1250
> > Quadratic: R2 0.99 B6 1400, B7 1900
> > Exponential: R2 0.94 B6 1300, B7 1700
 
Dumbledad asked

> What does R2, B6, and B7 stand for? I should know but don't (and 
am 
> not near stats books to check)

Much as it grieves me to bring Cindy back to earth among the 
pansies, I'd better try to clarify.

As Ksnidget said, the R2 (read as R-squared - the limitations of 
plain text) number is the measure of goodness of fit of the curve. 
Numbers close to 1 mean the curve fits the data pretty well.

B6 stands for book 6 and B7 for book 7.

The idea of curve fitting is that you plot a graph of the number of 
pages against the number of the book in the series, and then plot a 
straight line or a smooth curve that comes as close as possible to 
the plotted points.  A linear fit means drawing a straight line, 
while quadratic and exponential curves involve more complicated 
formulae to plot them.

So all I was saying was that if you try the linear fit, you get an 
R2 value of 0.9, and reading off the curve for books 6 and 7 gives 
about 1100 and 1250 pages respectively.  And similarly for the other 
curves.
 
> Whilst we're all feeding our inner geek, what I'd like to see is a 
> pictorial analysis of each of the HP novels using a visualization 
> technique like Text Arc http://www.textarc.org/ 

That site looks interesting - though I couldn't figure out what they 
are doing exactly.

> Now all I need is electronic 
> versions of the texts. Ho hum.

I fear that is illegal at the present time.

David




From sushi at societyhappens.com  Wed Jan 15 23:40:31 2003
From: sushi at societyhappens.com (Sushi)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 17:40:31 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Dictioanries (was Re: Slash and
  homosexuality)
In-Reply-To: <3E25EF30.000005.46575@monica>
References: <b04qqq+7h38@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030115173839.02841be0@mail.societyhappens.com>


>Does anyone know a good online free dictionary? I needed a definition to use
>in one of my essays last week and found nothing helpful, but I fully admit I
>d left it to the last minute wand was fairly tired when I was searching.
>(Essay title - what s the essence of coutliness? definition of courtliness
>according to most dictionaries - behaviour suitable to a court, or worse
>just listed as the noun derived from courtly.)
>
>K

         Dictionary.com is pretty good.  It searches several online 
dictionaries (no OED, sad to say - I need a subscription to that) and turns 
up the results for all of them.  For "courtliness", I got:

         Suitable for a royal court; stately: courtly furniture and pictures.
         Elegant; refined: courtly manners.
         Flattering in an insincere way; obsequious.

         These come from the American Heritage Dictionary.  There are a 
couple more definitions as well, but this was the most concise.

         Hope this helps!

Sushi


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From sushi at societyhappens.com  Wed Jan 15 23:44:50 2003
From: sushi at societyhappens.com (Sushi)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 17:44:50 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Dictioanries (was Re: Slash and
  homosexuality)
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030115173839.02841be0@mail.societyhappens.com>
References: <3E25EF30.000005.46575@monica>
 <b04qqq+7h38@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030115174334.02648e20@mail.societyhappens.com>

	Sorry, not all here today.  Courtliness was listed as the noun form of 
courtly.  I don't know if that's what you were looking for or not, and it's 
just struck me it might not have been.

Sushi, contact-free and barely able to read (much less comprehend)




From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk  Wed Jan 15 23:42:33 2003
From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 23:42:33 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Dictioanries (was Re: Slash and homosexuality)
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030115173839.02841be0@mail.societyhappens.com>
Message-ID: <3E25F1E9.000007.46575@monica>



-------Original Message-------

From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
Date: 15 January 2003 23:38:25
To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Dictioanries (was Re: Slash and
homosexuality)

Dictionary.com is pretty good. It searches several online 
dictionaries (no OED, sad to say - I need a subscription to that) and turns 
up the results for all of them. For "courtliness", I got:

Suitable for a royal court; stately: courtly furniture and pictures.
Elegant; refined: courtly manners.
Flattering in an insincere way; obsequious.

These come from the American Heritage Dictionary. There are a 
couple more definitions as well, but this was the most concise.

Hope this helps!

Sushi

Yeah I noticed the OED needs a subscription - it's a pity because that would
have sat well in my bibliography of academic sources a lot better than
something I hadn't heard of. A decent definition from someone like Websters
would have been adequate.
That's not a bad definition, still not quite what I had been looking for but
that's fine because I actually spent 1500 words of the essay defing what I
thought the question was looking for when it said courtliness and waht a
court was anyway.
*reads that back* You know I think Bill Clinton might have made a good
medieval historian what with his redifinition of every word in the questions
people asked him - I'm beginning to understand why I enjoy analysing details
of the potterverse to destruction too.

K
History Geek and proud of it



From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Wed Jan 15 23:46:22 2003
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David <dfrankiswork@netscape.net>)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 23:46:22 -0000
Subject: Pre-Ordering From Amazon
In-Reply-To: <b04pj8+e4cv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b04rse+lroq@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "shinesse 
<dehavensangel at h...>" <dehavensangel at h...> wrote:
> I have a few questions about pre-ordering OoP from Amazon.com. I 
> read that Amazon will be offering the book at 40% off the retail 
> value, which I think is great. I've shoped at Amazon before but 
> never pre-ordered anything before. So what I was wondering was 
this. 
> Has anyone here pre-ordered another Harry Potter book from Amazon? 
> And if so when did you get your copy? I would really like to know. 
I 
> want my copy on release day, even if I have to stand in line 
> overnight. But if I can get it from Amazon with the discount that 
> would be even better.

My memory of GOF in the UK was that Amazon were touting their mega 
discount for weeks beforehand.

Come the day, the book was discounted just as much in the shops, and 
you didn't have to pay Amazon's rip-off P&P (P&P per book!  I ask 
you!  Why don't they just gross it into the price?  OK, I know, 
because their prices wouldn't look so good then, and the punters 
wouldn't be fooled) or rely on the vicissitudes of delivery.

I went into Guildford Waterstones, picked a copy off the stand, went 
and stood in a queue that contained no less than *four* people, 
waited five or ten minutes, paid, and left with the book.  On the 
Saturday morning.

'Course, it could be different this time round.  But I'd be amazed 
if anyone has to pay the full ?16.99 here.  Or have to queue.

David




From john at queerasjohn.com  Wed Jan 15 23:49:26 2003
From: john at queerasjohn.com (Queer as John)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 23:49:26 +0000
Subject: Why people read fiction (was: Argument for why people aren't
	interested in slash)
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030115164938.02655b50@mail.societyhappens.com>
Message-ID: <BA4BA406.57B2%john@queerasjohn.com>

Sushi said:

> The bottom line here is that it is something that falls so far outside some
> people's day-to-day understanding of the world that it just doesn't register.
> <snip> A story that introduces the concept is a different matter; he wouldn't
> have such a hard time with that, and he'd demolish it just like every other
> book I've ever seen him touch.

Okay, I can understand your point, but in that case, why would that person
read fiction at all? Especially, dare I say it, fiction about an adolescent
British boy who's been the subject of emotional and physical abuse since age
1, going to a boarding school to learn magic?

Isn't fiction (indeed, non-fiction too, sometimes) supposed to be about the
author using their skills to make you identify with their characters? To
bring the characters to some form of "common denominator" with the reader?
Isn't the reader in theory supposed to learn something new about people
through the characters?

Let me take the example of Kim Stanley Robinson's
_The_Years_of_Rice_and_Salt_, an uber-epic which spans many centuries in an
alternate universe where the West was wiped out by the Black Death. The very
point is that Robinson *removes* the Western common reference points from
play, and leaves us dangling in the world that's developed without "us". In
Robinson's world, the only reference points we have left are those within
the Human Condition.

Do I have preconceptions of many of the concepts integral to the text? No. I
didn't know what a /jati/ was before I started reading. However, as I read
on, I began to understand the concept of the /jati/, and on a second/third
reading, I gain new understandings as Robinson explains it.

A counterexample: Terry Brooks' _The_Sword_of_Shannara_. I very much enjoyed
the sequel, _The_Voyage_of_the_Jerle_Shannara_, but when I went to read the
actual book, it seemed too close to LOTR for me to feel that I was learning
nothing new about these characters, and so I got bored of it. It's still
languishing on my bookshelf.

Of course, David Eddings is the counterexample -- I didn't get bored of the
Belgariad, Malloreon, Tamuli or Elenium, though they are blatantly
stereotypical characters and, indeed, settings and plots. I'm not sure why I
didn't get bored of this one -- anybody got suggestions?

--John

______________________________________

Queer as John || john at queerasjohn.com

AIM, YM & LJ @ QueerAsJohn || www.queerasjohn.com

"There's nowt as queer as folk."  --English proverb
______________________________________




From ression at hotmail.com  Thu Jan 16 00:02:07 2003
From: ression at hotmail.com (ER <ression@hotmail.com>)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 00:02:07 -0000
Subject: Glory be! The ratio! (OoP)
In-Reply-To: <b04r8a+e4ua@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b04spv+26m8@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "David <dfrankiswork at n...>" a 

> > pictorial analysis of each of the HP novels using a visualization 
> > technique like Text Arc http://www.textarc.org/ 
> 

> That site looks interesting - though I couldn't figure out what 
they are doing exactly.

They look to be showing the commonest words near the centre of the 
ellipse, less common ones further out. Round the edge of the ellipse 
is each sentence. If you hover over a word, lines join the word 
inside the ellipse to the sentence that contains it on the edge. This 
gives you a feel for how the word is distributed within the text. E.g 
in Hamlet, "Hamlet" appears pretty much throughout the text (duh!), 
whereas "ghost" appears in far fewer places and mostly in 
concentrated bursts.

> 
> > Now all I need is electronic 
> > versions of the texts. Ho hum.
> 
> I fear that is illegal at the present time.

Would it be illegal if one were to type a copy into a word-processor, 
from a book you'd bought, to do textual analysis on? Not that I'd be 
that mad ... just curious about the law.

ER




From absinthe at mad.scientist.com  Thu Jan 16 00:26:51 2003
From: absinthe at mad.scientist.com (Milz <absinthe@mad.scientist.com>)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 00:26:51 -0000
Subject: Potter Slash: Rowling speaks...through her lawyers.
In-Reply-To: <b046l1+g2tb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b04u8b+drhc@eGroups.com>

The other times I've read about any lawyer "going after" HP slash 
sites was over a year ago and it was the Warner Brothers lawyers. 
This is the first time I've read about Rowling's lawyers going after 
slash sites.

I have a suspicious mind sometimes and currently it's working 
overtime. We'll just ahve to wait and see....

Milz




From heidit at netbox.com  Thu Jan 16 00:29:44 2003
From: heidit at netbox.com (heiditandy)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 19:29:44 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Potter Slash: Rowling speaks...through her lawyers.
In-Reply-To: <b04u8b+drhc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <069a01c2bcf6$5e7e08d0$0301a8c0@Frodo>


> 
> Real-To:  "Milz <absinthe at mad.scientist.com>" 
> <absinthe at mad.scientist.com>
> 
> The other times I've read about any lawyer "going after" HP slash 
> sites was over a year ago and it was the Warner Brothers lawyers. 

Actually, they didn't send any C&D letters then. They didn't even
comment to the reporter who wrote the articles back in 2001. 
> This is the first time I've read about Rowling's lawyers going after 
> slash sites.

They didn't go after slash sites. They only sent one C&D to one site -
and it's a site that has slash pairings, heterosexual couple pairings
and "gen" fics (i.e. fics without sex or romance) that are adult-themed
because of violence.



Heidi 




From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 16 00:58:26 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve <bboy_mn@yahoo.com>)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 00:58:26 -0000
Subject: Pre-Order - Strange Thought
Message-ID: <b0503i+djp2@eGroups.com>

Nothing earth shattering here, just a strange thought. 

With the ability to pre-order copies of Order of the Phoenix, it might
be possible for OoP to make the 'best seller' list based on sales
volume, before the book is even available. I have no doubt that they
will sell many thousands of copies this week, and I suspect millions
by the end of the month.

Just one of those things that make you go .... hummm.....

bbboy_mn






From heidit at netbox.com  Thu Jan 16 01:07:41 2003
From: heidit at netbox.com (Heidi Tandy)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 21:07:41 -0400
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re:Glory be! The ratio! (OoP)
Message-ID: <mailman.22.1576049042.5361.hpfgu-otchatter@archive.hpfgu.org>

ER asked:
**Would it be illegal if one were to type a copy into a word-processor, 
from a book you'd bought, to do textual analysis on? Not that I'd be 
that mad ... just curious about the law.**

For a book still protected by copyright - and given the frustrating yet expected supreme court ruling in the us today, that could be a very long time for works protected under us copyright - yes, it's illegal to do that without permission. Only the copyright holder and by operation of contract his/her/its licensees can copy a work. 

You can take portions of it for fair use, including criticism and educational purposes, or reviews - but you can't take the whole thing. 

Just a reminder - rules on this group prohibit posting or uploading etexts of any of the hp books, including the schoolbooks. 



From urbana at charter.net  Thu Jan 16 01:13:38 2003
From: urbana at charter.net (Anne <urbana@charter.net>)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 01:13:38 -0000
Subject: Pre-Order - Strange Thought
In-Reply-To: <b0503i+djp2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b05102+1jp7@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Steve <bboy_mn at y...>" 
<bboy_mn at y...> wrote:
> Nothing earth shattering here, just a strange thought. 
> 
> With the ability to pre-order copies of Order of the Phoenix, it 
might
> be possible for OoP to make the 'best seller' list based on sales
> volume, before the book is even available. I have no doubt that they
> will sell many thousands of copies this week, and I suspect millions
> by the end of the month.
> 
> Just one of those things that make you go .... hummm.....
> 
> bbboy_mn

OoP is already #1 on both Amazon's and Barnes and Noble's best seller 
lists (as of a few minutes ago, online), based on pre-orders. This 
makes me go WOOOOOO HOOOOOOOOO!!!


Anne U
(does the NYTimes list count pre-orders too?? ;-)





From heidit at netbox.com  Thu Jan 16 01:19:27 2003
From: heidit at netbox.com (Heidi Tandy)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 21:19:27 -0400
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Pre-Order - Strange Thought
Message-ID: <mailman.23.1576049042.5361.hpfgu-otchatter@archive.hpfgu.org>

Anne asked:
**(does the NYTimes list count pre-orders too?? ;-)**

No, not until release. And remember, they created the infernally annoying children's book list the *week* GoF came out, so it couldn't be number one on the "main" list. 

Heidi Tandy
Follow me to FictionAlley - Harry Potter fanfics of all shapes, sizes and ships - 7 sickles an ounce
http://www.FictionAlley.org. 



From foxmoth at qnet.com  Thu Jan 16 01:32:34 2003
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999 <foxmoth@qnet.com>)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 01:32:34 -0000
Subject: Vision of Characters (was:  Slash and homosexuality)
In-Reply-To: <BA4B9530.5784%john@queerasjohn.com>
Message-ID: <b0523i+do89@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Queer as John 
<john at q...> wrote:
> Carole <lrcjestes at e...> said:
> 
> > I strongly disagree with this opinion, John.  Even though the 
text might read as you interpreted it, I don't think Meira is saying 
that homosexuality can't exist without ruining the world of Harry 
Potterfor them. 
> 
> Sorry, I mustn't have been clear when I said:
> 
> > If one's image of the HPverse is one in which gay people 
don't exist -- andcan't exist without "ruining" it -- then one must
be 
prepared to receive charges of homophobia.
> 
> I didn't think in the slightest that Meira was saying that. 
However, someone _did_ use the word "ruin" with regard to 
mental images and non-explicit slash.
> 

John, can you point me at this message? Because I can't find 
that anyone said that. Carol said this in 13124:


>>I loved the HP books to begin with was because they 
were *interesting* books that I *could* read to my then 7yo 
without  worrying about language, violence, or sex. So do we ruin 
the magic of these books by bringing the characters into the 
adult world of sex, violence, and slash? <<

Please note that Carole said the "adult world of ...slash." I don't 
recall anywhere  in this discussion  a blanket statement 
that  slash per-se ruins the books, or that no slash is suitable for  
children.

 Diana  said parents might not want their children exposed to 
"gay pairings"  of "loved characters" because they didn't want  to 
lose the image of HP that they had, "lose" not "ruin."

As I understand it, the image Carole and Diana are concerned 
will be lost is not that the Potterverse is gay-free, but that 
characters like Ron, Harry and Hermione are sexually safe there, 
including safe in their sexual orientation. To a kid, Potterverse 
characters are like real people, not fictional constructs whose 
sexuality can be altered to suit.

BTW, is anyone out there writing slash they consider suitable for 
seven year olds? 

Pippin






From dradamsapple at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 16 01:38:17 2003
From: dradamsapple at yahoo.com (dradamsapple <dradamsapple@yahoo.com>)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 01:38:17 -0000
Subject: Pre-Ordering From Amazon
In-Reply-To: <b04pj8+e4cv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b052e9+2c5d@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "shinesse 
<dehavensangel at h...>" <dehavensangel at h...> wrote:
> I have a few questions about pre-ordering OoP from Amazon.com. I 
> read that Amazon will be offering the book at 40% off the retail 
> value, which I think is great. I've shoped at Amazon before but 
> never pre-ordered anything before. So what I was wondering was 
this. 
> Has anyone here pre-ordered another Harry Potter book from Amazon? 
> And if so when did you get your copy? I would really like to know. 
I 
> want my copy on release day, even if I have to stand in line 
> overnight. But if I can get it from Amazon with the discount that 
> would be even better.

shinesse,

We just did this pre-ordering thing last year for the release SS (US)
on DVD.  I think we ordered it as soon as a release date was 
announced, and to my ultimate surprise, it arrived on the same day it 
was released in stores.  It had a  "DO NOT DELIVER BEFORE  . . ."  
postmaster alert taped across the package.  What a wonderful surprise!
Unfortunatley, I believe they were waving the shipping charges as 
part of the promotion for pre-ordering.
 
But I just ordered the UK child-version and the US version through 
amazon.  Unfortunately, people seem to be wacky where I live, and 
stand in line for days . . . (my friend stood in line for I believe 
14 hours when  TITANIC came out on video.!!! ) Since I live with 
three kids and a husband who have NO tolerance for lines, I'd rather 
pay the extra $$ and have it delivered to my door!
I'll let you know when it arrives!!:-)

Anna . . .




From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 16 01:52:02 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve <bboy_mn@yahoo.com>)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 01:52:02 -0000
Subject: Dictioanries (was Re: Slash and homosexuality)
In-Reply-To: <3E25EF30.000005.46575@monica>
Message-ID: <b05382+csb5@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Kathryn Cawte" <kcawte at b...>
wrote:
> 
> 
> -------Original Message-------
> 
> From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
> Date: 15 January 2003 23:28:35
> To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Slash and homosexuality
> 
> 
> Well ... my 1982 Concise OED clearly defines homosexual as meaning 
> a person "who is sexually attracted only by persons of his or her 
> own sex". ...  Who's got a  recent dictionary?
> 
> ER
> 


> Kathryn Cawte:
> Does anyone know a good online free dictionary? 
> (Essay title - what s the essence of coutliness? definition of 
> courtliness
>
> K

bboy_mn:
Well, I'm reading posts out of order, so I know this has already been
covered but 

http://www.dictionary.com/

will let you search dictionary or thersaurus (there is also a
thersaurus.com but they are both the same place). When you search
courtliness, it returns definitions from three different dictionaries
(American Heritage, Websters, & World Net). Although, other word may
return results for more dictionaries. The word 'lot' returns 11
definitions.

There is also a place on-line where you can search the Oxford English
Dictionary. It's the Oxford's Kid Dictionary which has it's own
separate website. I think they limit the number of times you can
search in one day, but it's still handy. Don't have the link, but I
used it back when we were debating the definition and proper use of
the word 'domritory'. American dictionaries have a usage that is not
in Oxford.

If you need a good computer dictionary. I recommend the American
Heritage CD-ROM. If you don't need the absolute latest version, you
can get one in the CD-ROM bargain bin for $5 to $10. I've got it, it
works great. If you misspell a word it makes a best guess. You can
also search definitions (Word Finder) for example, a list of all words
that have 'evil' in their definition. That's handy. And it combines
Thesaurus information below each definition.

Since I usually reply at the group rather than by email, I don't have
a spelling checker when I type. So if I am in doubt of a word, I type
it into the dictionary to verify the spelling. Nice simple user
interface too. You can't for wrong for $10. Also comes in very handy
when I am writing fiction.

You can get a lot of good software in the CD-ROM bargain bin found at
most retail and computer stores. It's possible to buy an older version
of say a photo editing program like Ulead Photo Impact. You pay $10
for that, install it, then buy the latest upgrade edition from Ulead
for $50. So for $60 total, you get the latest edition of a $100
program. I've seen older versions of Norton System Work in the bargain
bin. You can do the samething, buy the bargain, then purchase the
latest upgrade and save money.

Some of you may have seen the maps I posted a few days ago. I paid $10
for that program and recently saw it on the internet for $3.99.

My point??? you ask-
The American Heritage bargain bin Dictionary is an outstanding value
and an excelent writing tool. 

The other point, consider some of the other CD-ROM bargain bin
software. It may be just what you need.

Just a few thoughts.

bboy_mn






From fluxed at earthlink.net  Thu Jan 16 01:59:35 2003
From: fluxed at earthlink.net (vulgarweed <fluxed@earthlink.net>)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 01:59:35 -0000
Subject: Vision of Characters (was: Slash andhomosexuality)
In-Reply-To: <3E25EB90.000001.46575@monica>
Message-ID: <b053m7+mr49@eGroups.com>

Kathryn:

> I'm beginning to think I'm the only one around here who not 
only doesn't
> have a concrete opinion of the characters that cannot be 
shattered but in
> some cases has multiple opinions of the characters.
> 
> For many of the characters I don't feel we have enough 
evidence to know
> exactly hat they're like (and a lot of what we have is biased by 
the fact
> that it's seen through the eyes of Harry Potter).
> 
> This is especially true for me for the kids - partly because there 
is so
> much potential there for how they would develop in future. 
<snip>


> So I am totally unable to get what people are talking about hen 
they refer
> to certain images as ruining their view of the potterverse or 
changing it
> fundamentally.
> Am I alone in this? Am I totally nuts? Should I worry that I have 
multiple
> versions of the characters dancing around in my brain?

No, Kathryn, you're not the only one at all. Even the movies, I've 
found, have not affected my own mental images of the 
characters very much at all (much as I love Alan Rickman's 
interpretation of the character, the Snape in my head doesn't 
really look like him; I could say the same for Rupert Grint, 
Richard Harris, Maggie Smith, Tom Felton, etc. etc. Except 
Robbie Coltrane - he IS my Hagrid, and that was scary!!!) And 
yes, I too find myself reading stories that have very different 
interpretations of what they all might really be like - in the past, in 
the present, in the future, whatever. Each "truth" only holds true in 
that one particular story, after all. The mark of good writing is just 
that which enables and encourages me to accept *this story's* 
version for as long as the story lasts. I'm usually really happy to 
find a story that can help me look at a character in a whole new 
way I wouldn't have thought of myself. 

And I don't find this in any way diminishing of the -reality- that the 
characters have in the books. Haven't we all been an angel to 
some; a monster to others? Haven't we all wondered about the 
great what-if, the road not taken? Couldn't we all, in fact, be 
_dramatically_ different people than we currently are if certain 
circumstances in our lives had turned out differently, if the luck of 
the draw of place and time had been different, if some different 
choices had been made? (If our parents had made some 
different choices; if the government of the countries we live in 
had made some different choices....etcetera etcetera). These 
questions lead into too much infinity to be answered, but fiction 
is a place where they can be studied and played with.

AV





From pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no  Thu Jan 16 02:03:36 2003
From: pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no (pengolodh_sc <pengolodh_sc@yahoo.no>)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 02:03:36 -0000
Subject: Pre-Ordering From Amazon
In-Reply-To: <b04rse+lroq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b053to+jj26@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter, David wrote:
> Come the day, the book was discounted just as much in the shops,
> and you didn't have to pay Amazon's rip-off P&P (P&P per book!  I
> ask you!  Why don't they just gross it into the price?  

Because postage-rates per object charged by the Royal Mail differs 
depending on mode of delivery, on quantity, size and weight of 
objects to be delivered in one shipment, and country of destination 
of the package.  If I, living in Norway, order OotP alone, with 
Priority Express, the P&P for the book is higher, than if I order 
OotP, the newest large illustrated LoTR, the hardbound "Oxford Guide 
to Heraldry", Ottfreed Neubecker's "Heraldry: Sources, Symbols and 
Meanings", Whitley's "Cruisers of World War 2: An International 
Encyclopedia", and Cassel's Dictionary of English, to be shipped in 
one package by Air Mail.

For me, ordering OotP through Amazon shipped with Air Mail will be 
cheaper than buying the English version in Norwegian bookstores (it 
costs ?12.43, all told).  Buying the English OotP through Amazon and 
having it shipped with Priority Express would most likely be cheaper 
than buying the Norwegian translation, although Amazon's price would 
be ?27.49.

Another thing is that the adult cover version will not be accessible 
through Norwegian outlets for yet a while, and it is not a given the 
regular version will be available to me either, through other outlets 
than Amazon.co.uk.




From john at queerasjohn.com  Thu Jan 16 02:08:15 2003
From: john at queerasjohn.com (Queer as John)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 02:08:15 +0000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Vision of Characters (was:  Slash and
	homosexuality)
In-Reply-To: <b0523i+do89@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <BA4BC48F.57F9%john@queerasjohn.com>

pippin_999 <foxmoth at qnet.com> said:

> BTW, is anyone out there writing slash they consider suitable for
> seven year olds? 

Pippin, the HP books are not suitable for your average seven year old. I'll
defer to a media specialist on exactly which age equivalencies they *are*
suitable for.

However, yes, I and hundreds of others have written slash which would have a
cinema PG-13 rating, i.e. a rating roughly similar to GoF. There is yet more
slash which would have a PG rating. I've not specifically written anything
for a seven year old, no. But I was always a precocious child, and was
reading the Hardy Boys at 7, which IIRC was a 14 year old equivalency. So
I'm not the best person to pick and choose based on ages :D

--John, who will have to search for the "ruin" reference ;)
______________________________________

Queer as John || john at queerasjohn.com

AIM, YM & LJ @ QueerAsJohn || www.queerasjohn.com

"There's nowt as queer as folk."  --English proverb
______________________________________




From fluxed at earthlink.net  Thu Jan 16 02:09:55 2003
From: fluxed at earthlink.net (vulgarweed <fluxed@earthlink.net>)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 02:09:55 -0000
Subject: Vision of Characters (was: Slash andhomosexuality)
In-Reply-To: <3E25EB90.000001.46575@monica>
Message-ID: <b0549j+19fq@eGroups.com>

Kathryn again:
> 
> As a writer I like exploring those different views of the 
characters - I
> write Lucius as just being a normal guy, not one of the bad 
guys, not one of
> the good guys but just doing what he feels he needs to to 
survive, I also
> write him as evil, abusive and total scum, I've read him in 
stories as
> manipulating Severus into joining the Drak Lord and as being 
manipulated
> into joining by Severus, I've read Snape as asexual, 
homosexual,
> heterosexual, bisexual, as a total slut (and Sex God of 
Slytherin) and as a
> virgin. And in all of those stories I've believed it totally because 
he was
> (for me at any rate) totally in character. 

Hee, sorry, but that made me remember (and get stuck in my 
head!!!) this classic:


I'm a teaser (I'm a man!)
 Well I'm a virgin 
I'm a one night stand 
I'm a drug 
Well I'm your slave 
 I'm a dream divine 
And we make love together 
I'm a goddess 
I'm a hooker 
 I'm a blue movie 
 I'm a slut 
 I'm a geisha 
 I'm your babe 
 I'm a dream divine
And we make love together

(can't be the only person here old enough to remember that. 
Note on the 'childhood innocence' thing: yes, I did love this song 
when I was 12 or 13 when it came out, and yes I *did* 
understand it, at least theoretically. They ARE all the same 
person, that's the point!)


AV







From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk  Thu Jan 16 02:11:54 2003
From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 02:11:54 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Vision of Characters (was: Slash andhomosexuality)
References: <b0549j+19fq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3E2614EA.000001.47129@monica>



-------Original Message-------

From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
Date: 16 January 2003 02:10:01
To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Vision of Characters (was: Slash
andhomosexuality)

Hee, sorry, but that made me remember (and get stuck in my 
head!!!) this classic:


I'm a teaser (I'm a man!)
Well I'm a virgin 
I'm a one night stand 
I'm a drug 
Well I'm your slave 
I'm a dream divine 
And we make love together 
I'm a goddess 
I'm a hooker 
I'm a blue movie 
I'm a slut 
I'm a geisha 
I'm your babe 
I'm a dream divine
And we make love together

(can't be the only person here old enough to remember that. 
Note on the 'childhood innocence' thing: yes, I did love this song 
when I was 12 or 13 when it came out, and yes I *did* 
understand it, at least theoretically. They ARE all the same 
person, that's the point!)


AV

*pout* If you're going to quote intriguing lyrics like that could you
provide an artist and/or title for those of us (ie me) that tend to head
straight to kazaa whenever we hear a new song.
I've discovered some really interesting stuff that way but I can't search
for it on that.

K



From fluxed at earthlink.net  Thu Jan 16 02:22:10 2003
From: fluxed at earthlink.net (vulgarweed <fluxed@earthlink.net>)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 02:22:10 -0000
Subject: Vision of Characters (was: Slash andhomosexuality)
In-Reply-To: <3E2614EA.000001.47129@monica>
Message-ID: <b0550i+sn24@eGroups.com>


> 
> *pout* If you're going to quote intriguing lyrics like that could 
you
> provide an artist and/or title for those of us (ie me) that tend to 
head
> straight to kazaa whenever we hear a new song.
> I've discovered some really interesting stuff that way but I can't 
search
> for it on that.

Aw, I'm sorry! The band is called Berlin, and the song is called 
"Sex (I'm A...)" It was a hit in the early 80s. It's synth-based new 
wave pop with a female and a male singer.

AV





From editor at texas.net  Thu Jan 16 03:47:19 2003
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 21:47:19 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Vision of Characters (was:  Slash andhomosexuality)
References: <BA4B9530.5784%john@queerasjohn.com>
Message-ID: <006701c2bd11$f91b3a00$9e04a6d8@texas.net>

John said:

> With regard to your Russell Crowe analogy, I'm not so sure it fits. It's
> more like a Food Analogy (I like sausage for X reason). You could probably
> narrow down the reasons you didn't see Russell Crowe as Sirius: his eyes
are
> too beady, etc. Once again, nobody has come up with any reason other than
> "because" for not liking slash.

Um. Why isn't "because" a good enough reason? Isn't personal taste the
dictator here? I'm not trying to be flippant, honest. But it's the same
reason I don't like some foods. Some things taste good and some don't. Don't
ask me *why*; they just work for me or not.

I may not be the most logical person to weigh in because I never read fanfic
anyway. I presume some slash is hot and heavy and some isn't. I wouldn't
like the hot and heavy stuff because I don't like to read hot and heavy sex
stuff. I don't think I'd mind the other. But don't ask me why I don't like
it, or not. It's just my preference. Why does anything more sinister or
judgemental have to be meant or inferred?

~Amanda





From rvotaw at i-55.com  Thu Jan 16 04:08:48 2003
From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 22:08:48 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Pre-Ordering From Amazon
References: <BA4B9B48.5790%john@queerasjohn.com>
Message-ID: <012d01c2bd14$f939de30$28a2cdd1@RVotaw>


Queer as John writes:

> For OOP, I'd be at my Barnes & Noble with my 10% discount card. :) If I were
> in the US. As it is, I'll be at my local bookstore in the UK. :D

I don't care where it is, whoever opens at midnight I'll be there.  And I don't care what they charge me.  $50?  Fine.  $100?  Okay, whatever, just give me the book. :)  I've already got a friend lined up to go with me.  That way we can speculate in line and pass the time.  Not to mention fight over who has to drive home and who starts reading aloud with a book light. :)  And I don't really trust the local post office that much to get my book out on time.  Besides, if I get it at midnight I can read all night.  

Richelle


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From thalia at aokp.org  Thu Jan 16 04:44:05 2003
From: thalia at aokp.org (chanteuse thalia chaunacy)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 20:44:05 -0800
Subject: Jackson's Sam & Frodo
In-Reply-To: <avs6vr+nrge@eGroups.com>
References: <001a01c2b8c2$9a1181c0$512432d2@price> <avs6vr+nrge@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <WorldClient-F200301152044.AA44050118@aokp.org>

abigail wrote: "... but in [Jackson's] choice to make Frodo young and fey 
[and take out the master/servant aspect of the Frodo/Sam 
relationship] ... he also eliminated the possibility of reading that 
relationship as agape - deep, enduring love between two men that comes of 
friendship and camaraderie."

oooo i SO disagree! :)

notes: i am unerringly optimistic, i like UST and sexual undertones, and 
i hadn't read the book before i saw the movie--

BUT

the way jackson presents the relationship is BEAUTIFUL and, to me, 
ABSOLUTE agape. there is buoyancy, yes, and viewers will do as they 
please, but there is also unflinching clarity of bosom-friendship.

honestly, it's probably what makes me love the movie, and what has 
convinced me to read the books.

thalia 'falling into elijah wood's eyes with a splash' chaunacy

"Ah, music. A magic beyond all we do here!"  -Albus Dumbledore




From thalia at aokp.org  Thu Jan 16 04:46:15 2003
From: thalia at aokp.org (chanteuse thalia chaunacy)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 20:46:15 -0800
Subject: Prismadic Characters
In-Reply-To: <3E25EB90.000001.46575@monica>
References: <BA4B9530.5784%john@queerasjohn.com> <3E25EB90.000001.46575@monica>
Message-ID: <WorldClient-F200301152046.AA46150119@aokp.org>

K wrote: "Am I alone in this? Am I totally nuts? Should I worry 
that I have multiple versions of the characters dancing around in my 
brain?"

oooo oooo! <waves hand around frantically>  me too me too!

call me a bleedin' heart, but i have this theory, summed up best by my 
friend lucky:

"i've given up trying to figure people out, because every time i assume 
something it's wrong; so now i just contemplate possibilities and wait 
for them to tell me."

now, harry we know pretty well, considering he's our guide, but heck he's 
a teenager and technically an Unreliable Narrator (ooo ninth grade 
english coming back to haunt me).  so we never know.


thalia 'unflinchingly naive college graduate' chaunacy

"Ah, music. A magic beyond all we do here!"  -Albus Dumbledore




From morrigan at byz.org  Thu Jan 16 04:59:11 2003
From: morrigan at byz.org (Morrigan)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 22:59:11 -0600
Subject: Why people read fiction (was: Argument for why people aren'tinterested in slash)
In-Reply-To: <BA4BA406.57B2%john@queerasjohn.com>
Message-ID: <OCEOIOOCLDBFPDHBBCEMCEMOCLAA.morrigan@byz.org>

-----Original Message-----
From: Queer as John

>Of course, David Eddings is the counterexample -- I didn't get bored of the
>Belgariad, Malloreon, Tamuli or Elenium, though they are blatantly
>stereotypical characters and, indeed, settings and plots. I'm not sure why
I
>didn't get bored of this one -- anybody got suggestions?

Well, I can tell you why the Belgariad and Mallorean are still some of my
favorite books, and I continue to re-read them to this day, and I also think
is why I love Harry Potter so much - it's a fantasy, pure and simple.

I can't really speak for you or anyone else, but I do know from talking to
people that not everyone reads like I do - and I mean "like I do" in terms
of amount, intensity, enjoyment and immersement.  I read for pleasure a LOT
(as in up to 3-4 books a week, which went down to 1 a week when I was in
grad school), reading means a lot to me, I LOVE to read, and I really get
into the books I read.  When I read something I really enjoy, I become a
part of it, and in the case of a fantasy, it's an escape.  (I know that some
people would find that psychologically harmful, but get off it - everyone
finds a way to escape from the pressures of the everyday world.  Reading has
been mine since I was 3 years old.)  Maybe it's my upbringing, maybe it's
just how my mind works - I can't say.

I agree that the characters in Eddings' books are stereotypical in the
extreme, but the truth is, I didn't really REALIZE that until sometime in
the last year or so, when someone pointed it out to me - it may have been on
this list, actually.  Until that time, I hadn't performed any great literary
analysis on the books - I had just enjoyed them.  Perhaps they are better
written than the other books you mentioned?  Perhaps the stories are better?
Perhaps, despite the stereotypicalness of Eddings' works, you just relate
better to the worlds he's created.

One could certainly make the argument that Rowling's works are just as
stereotypical.  I could go through and list the many ways, but I'm sure it's
been done before and better, and yet, I find myself re-reading HP over and
over as well.  I even went so far as to actually get involved with the Harry
Potter fandom just over a year ago, when all I've ever done before is have a
passing interest in any fandom.  Why is HP different?  I'm not sure I can
answer that.  All I can say is that some books just ARE.

Morrigan
www.RestrictedSection.org - STILL PROUD
www.livejournal.com/users/hermorrine
www.byz.org/~morrigan/hpslash.html




From thalia at aokp.org  Thu Jan 16 05:35:55 2003
From: thalia at aokp.org (chanteuse thalia chaunacy)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 21:35:55 -0800
Subject: M/S, bosom buddies, platonic trio, sexualization of US
In-Reply-To: <avrno2+u6g2@eGroups.com>
References: <avrno2+u6g2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <WorldClient-F200301152135.AA35550120@aokp.org>

dicentra wrote about Mulder/Scully loooove: "it was a *wonderful* 
relationship. It was intimate, they cared for each other very much--you 
could even go so far as to say that they *loved* each other--but there 
was no sexual element..."

my x-philes friends and i used to say that M/S was the epitome of agape. 
the sex (theoritical, as this was back in season 4) was like a bonus.  
and that's how i look at life in general, being the optimist i am: it's 
all about agape; sex is a bonus. and i have quite a varied personal track 
record (gotten involved with friends, refused to get involved with 
friends, gotten involved with strangers, gotten involved with both 
genders, etc etc) so i don't think this is wishful thinking or deep-
seated issues on my part.

but--i'm what's known in some circles as 'perky'.  so watch out.

diana wrote: "I'd really like to see society pull its head out and give 
these kinds of relationships more emphasis than the romantic ones. 
they're much healthier, they do less damage to the individuals, and they 
leave room for the individuals to grow separately or apart."

this seems very one-sided. perhaps there are only relationships, in the 
dictionary sense, and within them, there are millions of different 
permutations. damage, growth, and health are all easy things to talk 
about but hard to really understand. so i say--don't assume you know 
what's good and what's bad.

dicentra wrote: "[because deep friendships are under-represented] I want 
to keep the Trio free from entanglements with each other (or if they 
entangle, they disentangle rather quickly.)"

if a couple establishes itself romantically in books 5 6 & 7, that makes 
it 1 to about 80 established friendships. even if it's within the trio. 
there are TONS of wonderful agape-filled platonic deep bonded 
relationships in these books.  one or two romantic pairings wouldn't skew 
it to be a sap-fest that disregards agape.

diana wrote: "true friendships are being disregarded in favor of the idea 
that lust and sex make up more of a person's personality and friendships, 
whether in the real world, in a book or on a screen. <snip> Don't even 
get me started on how oversexualized the culture of the world, 
particularly the USA has become..."

try looking at it a different way for a moment. perhaps the problem is 
not in the oversexualization of our culture, but is in the simultaneous 
stimulation and opression of sexual responses. even as sex is promoted by 
nature (not to mention pop culture), it is demoted by religion (not to 
mention that very same pop culture), thus making it a highly volatile, 
confusing, surreal thing. so of course it's flaunted, assaulted, 
regurgitated, and pedestaled. it's such a huge freaking deal because we 
can't get a straight answer about it. friendship--well, nobody says 
friendship'll get you thrown in hell. but inappropriate touching can, so 
friendships are considered appropriate when presented free of said 
touching.  HENCE -- the very philosophies that condemn sex and promote 
friendship actually lessen friendships by taking away the natural 
physical parts of deep friendship  (ie platonic hugs, handholding and bed-
sharing). so you can't blame it on the OVERsexualization of anything, 
when it's actually the repression of physicality that's to blame.

don't know if i made my point, but it seems a valliant effort 
nonetheless.  :) thanks for listening.

thalia 'what's so amazing about really deep thoughts?' chaunacy

"Ah, music. A magic beyond all we do here!"  -Albus Dumbledore




From mb2910 at hotmail.com  Thu Jan 16 06:33:51 2003
From: mb2910 at hotmail.com (Meira B)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 08:33:51 +0200
Subject: Homo Sapiens and Homosexual.
Message-ID: <F48lFOugAj7V5p5Iyr4000007a5@hotmail.com>

These are my two Knuts on the meaning of 'homo'.

This is from the Collins Concise Dictionary (2001):

When it's part of a word (as in 'homogenize', 'homonym', 'homosexual'), it 
means "same"

When it's a separate word (as in 'Homo Sapiens') it means "A genus of 
hominids including modern man and several extinct species of primitive man."

Meira.

"Alltami - The ancient art of being able to balance the hot and cold shower 
taps."
"Bally cumber - One of the six half-read books lying somewhere in your bed."
~The Meaning of Liff / Douglas Adams~


_________________________________________________________________
Help STOP SPAM: Try the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* 
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail




From dianasdolls at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 16 06:46:27 2003
From: dianasdolls at yahoo.com (Diana <dianasdolls@yahoo.com>)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 06:46:27 -0000
Subject: Official release date of HP Book V!!!!!
Message-ID: <b05kg3+agmd@eGroups.com>

Our 10 o'clock news just had the official release date of "Harry 
Potter and the Order of the Phoenix"!

It is June 21st!  Hurray!

:D <- Really huge grin!

Diana




From bloubet at incanmonkey.com  Thu Jan 16 07:24:56 2003
From: bloubet at incanmonkey.com (bloubet at incanmonkey.com)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 00:24:56 -0700 (MST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Pre-Ordering OotP
In-Reply-To: <1042681104.2115.25472.m13@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <1042701894.29441@incanmonkey.com>

>For OOP, I'd be at my Barnes & Noble with my 10% discount card. :) If I were
in the US. As it is, I'll be at my local bookstore in the UK. :D

>--John

Just a note -- you should also be able to reserve a copy pre-release from Barnes & Noble.  What happens is that a while before the release date (usually a month or so, but it wouldn't hurt to start checking soon now that there's a confirmed release date), you "order" the book. It isn't actually placed as an order -- it reserves a copy for you when the first shipment comes in. You do still have to stand in a checkout line, but you just get in line and, when you get to the front, ask for the book saved under your last name. It should be waiting behind the counter for you.

WARNING: Policies change in 6 months' time, and they may handle OOP differently than they do other books. Check with your local B&N to see how they're handling pre-orders, and call before you show up at the store and get in line to make sure that your copy has been pulled and put behind the counter. (IIRC from last time, those copies can't be put out front until after midnight on the sell date -- 12:01 a.m. on June 21st.)

Bright spot: Last time, we not only stayed open an extra few hours for the release, we had a big party at our B&N complete with games for the kids and a sorting hat. It was a blast. <grin> AND B&N often discounts special releases like HP, so it may be 20-30% off, PLUS that 10% discount if you have the card. Woohoo! <grin>

bel



From skelkins at attbi.com  Thu Jan 16 08:09:42 2003
From: skelkins at attbi.com (ssk7882 <skelkins@attbi.com>)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 08:09:42 -0000
Subject: The word 'slash'
In-Reply-To: <OCEOIOOCLDBFPDHBBCEMOEKMCLAA.morrigan@byz.org>
Message-ID: <b05pc6+4vev@eGroups.com>

John wrote:

> > However, what if one takes a look at more recent media culture. 
> > Would Will/Grace from _Will_and_Grace_ be slash? It would have 
> > to be sourced from the subtext, of course. Similarly, what about 
> > Brian/Melanie from _Queer_as_Folk_? Or Again, it's het, but is 
> > it slash?

Morrigan replied:

> I think you need to get out of my head, John.

I think that you *both* need to get out of my head!

Seriously.  My power went out on Saturday night and has just
now come back on, but just before everything went dark, I had
written this, which I never got the chance to post:

-----------

John wrote:

> I point out that "slash" has been argued to mean any subtextual
> pairing, regardless of the participants' gender(s); for ease of 
> use, however, I take the common definition.

Dating myself here...

When I was last heavily involved with fandoms, back in the '80s,
"subtextual pairing" was indeed the meaning of "slash."  In fact,
when I first encountered the definition more commonly in use here, 
it utterly confused me.  For a long time, I figured that it had to 
be some weird HP thing.  ;-)  Since then, though, I've learned 
that it is becoming the current definition in a number of different 
fan communities.

So two questions about this:

1) Does anyone know when this changed, or how the change happened?

and

2) Would an incontrovertbly canonical non-het pairing still be 
considered "slash?"  How about a subtextual *het* pairing involving
characters canonically established as gay?  In other words, in 
fandoms based on works that *do* deal explicitly with romance 
between characters of the same sex, does the word still retain 
its original meaning, or does it have a new meaning, or has 
it simply fallen out of use?  Any Pern or Darkover fans around 
here who might be able to enlighten me on how (or if) the word
is used these days in those fandoms?

----------

So the consensus seems to be that "slash" still means "subtextual
pairing" -- or, at least, that it *ought* to -- but is this a 
confirmed usage?  In other words, is the term really used this way 
in fandoms of works with explicitly textual non-het pairings?  Or 
is the term simply not used at all in those fandoms?

Any takers?


Elkins




From lmccabe at sonic.net  Thu Jan 16 08:11:06 2003
From: lmccabe at sonic.net (linda_mccabe <lmccabe@sonic.net>)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 08:11:06 -0000
Subject: Pre-Order - Strange Thought
Message-ID: <b05peq+p5se@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Heidi Tandy" <heidit at n...> 
wrote:
> Anne asked:
> **(does the NYTimes list count pre-orders too?? ;-)**
> 
> No, not until release. And remember, they created the infernally 
annoying children's book list the *week* GoF came out, so it 
couldn't be number one on the "main" list. 
> 
> Heidi Tandy
> Follow me to FictionAlley - Harry Potter fanfics of all shapes, 
sizes and ships - 7 sickles an ounce
> http://www.FictionAlley.org.

Well, actually Heidi, I beg to differ on this.  I used to work at a 
Barnes and Noble Superstore a few years back.  I did not know that 
they have what is referred to as "Out of the Box Bestsellers" but 
they do.  One would think that the first week you would sell the 
books and *then* it would make it to the best sellers list.  Nope.  
Some books are best sellers as soon as they arrive into the store.  

I felt stupid because I had just gotten off the phone with a 
customer who asked me if there was a discount on a Howard Stern book 
on the day of its release.  I told him the standard 20% off 
hardcovers (the discount at that time!) and said that it just came 
out so it wouldn't be on the best seller list.  Not two minutes 
later my manager came in the stock room and started slapping 
stickers on the books and wheeled them onto the floor and proved me 
wrong.

Oh and everyone, best sellers are not determined by how many books 
are actually sold to the public.  They are determined by how many 
copies are sold to the stores from the distributers such as Ingram 
and Baker & Taylor.  So you have many titles that are actually 
pushed into the Best Seller category by orders by stores but don't 
really sell as gonzo as one would think.  Later they are returned to 
the publisher and arrive in the remainder bin shortly afterwards.

It's what the publishers call gone today, here tomorrow.

Of course, I don't think any of JKR's books have ever been 
remaindered unless they were damaged.

And another thought, booksellers will often times tell you that 
they'll put your name on a copy for reserve.  It then depends on how 
many copies they actually get in stock.  I remember having Oprah 
books that had gathered dust all of a sudden fly off the shelves 
after she featured an author on her show.  We would get two dozen 
calls before the show was over asking for a copy to be reserved.  
Sometimes the booksellers would promise to do so without checking 
first to make sure there were enough copies to go around.  Talk 
about ticked off customers the next day.  When there weren't enough 
copies for all the phone calls and the distributors were all of a 
sudden sold out for at least a month.

Your local store might put your name on a list and they might not 
get all the copies to cover their waiting list.

I'm ordering mine from Amazon.  I don't want to take the chance.  
And last time they actually used overnight mail and did it free of 
charge.  I remember that trivia, even though it was before I started 
reading the HP series, merely because I was amazed at how JKR has 
changed publishing records.  

She is just soooo amazing.

Athena




From annemehr at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 16 08:22:52 2003
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr <annemehr@yahoo.com>)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 08:22:52 -0000
Subject: Slash and homosexuality
In-Reply-To: <BA4B7166.573C%john@queerasjohn.com>
Message-ID: <b05q4s+e54j@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Queer as John <john at q...> 
wrote:
<very large snip>
> 
> There is some question about whether being gay is actually genetic 
or if
> it's determined in the womb. It may be a combination of both. Like 
Barb, I
> don't care if it's genetic or fixed before birth. I know that I'm 
gay. I am
> attracted to men, and not attracted to women. I know that I didn't 
make a
> *choice* or a *decision* to be gay. It's not a "preference" in the 
same way
> that I prefer sausage to bacon, because I can explain why: the taste 
of the
> spices in the sausage taste better to me than bacon. I don't feel 
the same
> way about being attracted to men and not women.
> 

Hmmm...  Didn't you just say you prefer sausage to bacon because, to 
you, it just *tastes better*?  I don't see that you *decided* to 
prefer sausage, anymore than you decided to be gay. <now fondly 
thinking of sausage *and* bacon, with maple syrup on them>  I think 
the food analogies fall short because they are sort of trivial, 
whereas our sexual orientations aren't.  But of course, that's why 
food analogies were brought up in the first place -- they aren't 
emotionally loaded.

<snip>
 
> >> Barb wrote: "I firmly believe that scientists who have determined 
there is a
> >> genetic and/or biological basis to our orientations are correct,
> >> based in part on a great deal of anecdotal testimony available
> >> concerning the unchangeable nature of orientation (in addition to
> >> the more scientific studies).  I also believe, however, that 
those
> >> who claim orientation should not be protected under hate-crimes 
laws
> >> because they call it a "choice" should see the hypocrisy in their
> >> stand, when many of them are direct beneficiaries of their choice 
of
> >> religion being protected under law."
>  

Actually, I don't understand what hate-crimes laws can be expected to 
accomplish.  My former pastor's nephew was murdered for the two 
dollars and change he had in his pocket -- out of complete 
*indifference* to his life.  Is murdering out of hate really worse 
than murdering out of indifference?  These laws make it worse to 
murder (or to assault, or terrorize) when the motive is hatred of the 
victim's group.  But motive can be very hard to prove, and to me, 
murder is murder.  Still, I'm open to explanations on this.  Or is 
this skating too near politics for this group <refers self to PFLAG or 
somewhere if this turns out to be the case>?
  

<snip>

> Oh, I see. Well, the opinions of almost everybody on HPFGU-OTChatter 
matter
> to me. As I said to someone the other day, to me, OTChatter is the 
place
> where I chat with like-minded people about non-HP things. It has 
been ever
> since I created it all those many moons ago. The very first place I 
came out
> of the closet was in an HPFGU chat.
> 
> I generally count OTChatter as an open-minded, dare I say 'liberal' 
sort of
> place. 

Well, I checked "conservative" on the poll, because it was probably 
the best fit though not entirely accurate.  I'm not a fence-sitter, 
though -- I tend to have quite conservative views on many issues and 
liberal ones on others...

I tend to think that the people who are off crusading against 
gay
> rights are also crusading against Harry Potter, and so not that 
likely to be
> here! I also tend to think that HP fans, given the emphasis on 
slavery and
> racism in HP, are less likely to hold homophobic opinions. In short, 
I
> empathise with the people on this list. They're "people like me".


And on the other hand, it's really the only place I get to "talk" to 
GLBT people at all!  So for me, HPfGU is what the internet was meant 
to be -- a place where people can meet all kinds of other people from 
all over the world  (as long as they speak English, though).

> 
> I was stunned and surprised by the words that people used to express
> themselves, because I didn't think that "people like us" held 
homophobic
> opinions. That, I think, is why this whole thread has been so...odd, 
for
> lack of a better word. Homophobia isn't supposed to *happen* here.
> 
> --John
> 

Well... some of the problem at least seems to have been based on 
misunderstanding -- and I think a lot more people have benefitted from 
the subject getting an airing (myself included), so I hope it may turn 
out to have been worth it after all. 


Annemehr
wondering how you find out exactly which bookstores are open at 12:01 
am on June 21...






From jayemelle at earthlink.net  Thu Jan 16 08:58:47 2003
From: jayemelle at earthlink.net (tesseract197 <jayemelle@earthlink.net>)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 08:58:47 -0000
Subject: Pre-Ordering OotP
In-Reply-To: <1042701894.29441@incanmonkey.com>
Message-ID: <b05s87+pnv3@eGroups.com>

bel:
> Bright spot: Last time, we not only stayed open an extra few hours 
for the release, we had a big party at our B&N complete with games 
for the kids and a sorting hat. It was a blast.

Me:
My college roommate worked at a B&N in Manhattan that summer, and she 
had to wear round black glasses and a cape for the release party at 
her location.  Being a sophisticated city girl herself, not to 
mention one who'd never read the books, she was all sorts of unhappy 
about that, but I bet it was really cute--and I'm sure the kids loved 
it :o)

Tess




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Thu Jan 16 09:29:28 2003
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (Catherine Coleman <catherine@cator-manor.demon.co.uk>)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 09:29:28 -0000
Subject: OoP - Cover art, UK edition
Message-ID: <b05u1o+hjg5@eGroups.com>

Hi all,

I just had a look on Amazon.co.uk, to see whether the cover art is 
available yet, and saw what appears to be a detail.  The picture of 
Harry seems to depict him out at night, looking alarmed or confused, 
with some kind of packback over his shoulder.  I find this 
interesting, considering the UK edition usually centres on a fairly 
significant event in the books (Platform 9 and 3/4, the car, flying 
on Buckbeak, the Dragon task), and we know that Harry is supposedly 
going somewhere new this time round - so is this going to be 
significant enough to put on the front cover?  Is he going on some 
kind of journey?  Is he lost?

Making a lot out of probably nothing,

Catherine




From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 16 10:15:16 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve <bboy_mn@yahoo.com>)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 10:15:16 -0000
Subject: Slash and homosexuality
In-Reply-To: <b05q4s+e54j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b060nk+of3t@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr <annemehr at y...>"
<annemehr at y...> wrote:
 
> 
> Actually, I don't understand what hate-crimes laws can be expected 
> to accomplish.  My former pastor's nephew was murdered for the two 
> dollars and change he had in his pocket -- out of complete 
> *indifference* to his life.  
> 
> Is murdering out of hate really worse than murdering out of 
> indifference?  These laws make it worse to murder (or to assault,
> or terrorize) when the motive is hatred of the victim's group.  
> But motive can be very hard to prove, and to me, murder is murder.
>  Still, I'm open to explanations on this.  Or is this skating too 
> near politics for this group <refers self to PFLAG or  somewhere 
> if this turns out to be the case>?
> ...substantially edited...
> 
> Annemehr


bboy_mn: (who is aware that we are dangerously approaching OT even for
an OT forum)

Since you identified yourself as a Conservative [in the part I cut
out] rather than a Rupublican, is it safe to assume you are in Britian
or at least not in the US? Just curious.

"...murder is murder..." actually it's not. That's why I asked if you
were in the UK, because there they don't have a range of crimes for
killing people. 

Here in the US killing someone, even intentionally falls into a
spectrum of criminal offense; conspiricy, accessory, manslaughter,
third degree murder, second degree murder, first degree murder,
negligent homicide, and each of these has a range within each catagory
that make allowances for special circumstances. 

There are allowances for 'crimes of passion'; example, someone becomes
hysterically angry and kills another person under the influence of
uncontrolable emotion, assuming they don't try for temporaty insanity,
the court would make some allowance for the 'crime of passion'. 

People who use the 'gay panic' defense as an excuse for killing a gay
person would fall somewhat in that catagory. Although, no courts
really accept the 'gay panic' defense anymore. 

Related to this is 'premeditation', if you plot and plan to kill
someone, that's different than killing them in the heat of the moment.
The opposite of heat of the moment murder is cold blooded murder.
Also, the viciousness and brutality of the crime are given
consideration. Vulnerability of the victum is given consideration. 

Point? Courts have alway give consideration to 'special circumstances'
in the crime of murder (in it's various forms). The difference is that
not all judges interpret the circumstances the same way. A good
example, several decades ago a white person killing a negro in the
south would have a sympathetic judge and a light sentence, a negro
killing a white person under the identical circumstances, would have a
very UNsypathetic judge and receive a harsh sentance. 

Now change that example to gay people; one judge would say 'good
riddance', another judge would be outraged. Hate crime create a
universal legal opinion that judges can't ignore. You can't single out
groups of people then with premeditation, stalk them, and seek them
out with the intent of killing them. Those represent special
circumstances in a crime of murder. You can't kill Jew simply because
they are Jew. You can't kill gay people simply because they are gay.
Those are special circumstances crimes. Sadly, your friend's son is no
less dead, but he was chosen at random, and was chosen for no special
reason. Motivation matters in crime. Motivation affects the
viciousness of a crime and implies harsher sentences. Hate crime laws
simply assure that the special circumstances of hate motivated crimes
are recognized and dealt with uniformly and harshly by all judges. 

So do people who go out and stalk gay people with the professed intent
of killing them and motivated by a professed hate for them because
they are gay, qualify gay people for hate crimes protection? Now take
out the word 'gay' and insert 'jew', read the sentence and ask
yourself the same question. In many place, gay people aren't protected.

Conclusion, law has alway given consideration to special circumstances
in crimes. Hate crime laws assure that 'those' particular
circumstances are not ignored or overlooked by some judges.

Just a few thoughts. (and I promise the moderators not to let this
conversation go too far.)

bboy_mn









From heidit at netbox.com  Thu Jan 16 10:18:43 2003
From: heidit at netbox.com (heiditandy)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 05:18:43 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] OoP - Cover art, UK edition
In-Reply-To: <b05u1o+hjg5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <078e01c2bd48$a61d53b0$0301a8c0@Frodo>

Catherine wrote: 
> 
> I just had a look on Amazon.co.uk, to see whether the cover art is 
> available yet, and saw what appears to be a detail.  The picture of 
> Harry seems to depict him out at night, looking alarmed or confused, 
> with some kind of packback over his shoulder.  I find this 
> interesting, considering the UK edition usually centres on a fairly 
> significant event in the books (Platform 9 and 3/4, the car, flying 
> on Buckbeak, the Dragon task), and we know that Harry is supposedly 
> going somewhere new this time round - so is this going to be 
> significant enough to put on the front cover?  Is he going on some 
> kind of journey?  Is he lost?
> 
> Making a lot out of probably nothing,

Um, possibly. That's actually the cover image of Harry from the front of
PS's original UK release, with a new backdrop - likely created
internally at Amazon. But it's an interesting thought...


heidi




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Thu Jan 16 10:31:17 2003
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (Catherine Coleman <catherine@cator-manor.demon.co.uk>)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 10:31:17 -0000
Subject: OoP - Cover art, UK edition
In-Reply-To: <078e01c2bd48$a61d53b0$0301a8c0@Frodo>
Message-ID: <b061ll+16uf@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "heiditandy" <heidit at n...> 
wrote:
> Catherine wrote: 
> > 
> > I just had a look on Amazon.co.uk, to see whether the cover art 
is 
> > available yet, and saw what appears to be a detail.  The picture 
of 
> > Harry seems to depict him out at night, looking alarmed or 
confused, 
> > with some kind of packback over his shoulder.  I find this 
> > interesting, considering the UK edition usually centres on a 
fairly 
> > significant event in the books (Platform 9 and 3/4, the car, 
flying 
> > on Buckbeak, the Dragon task), and we know that Harry is 
supposedly 
> > going somewhere new this time round - so is this going to be 
> > significant enough to put on the front cover?  Is he going on 
some 
> > kind of journey?  Is he lost?
> > 
> > Making a lot out of probably nothing,
> 
> Um, possibly. That's actually the cover image of Harry from the 
front of
> PS's original UK release, with a new backdrop - likely created
> internally at Amazon. But it's an interesting thought...
> 
> 
> heidi

Well, I'm not going to swear, but I can't *believe* that I didn't 
notice that.  I thought it looked familiar.

Oh well, back to the drawing board.  Heidi, can you remember from 
last time how soon the new covers became available?

Catherine




From dianasdolls at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 16 11:44:24 2003
From: dianasdolls at yahoo.com (Diana <dianasdolls@yahoo.com>)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 11:44:24 -0000
Subject: Fanfics, slash, etc. - final word
Message-ID: <b065uo+u3op@eGroups.com>

Thank you, Meira, for your numerous responses to John's and other's 
replies.  Several of your responses are how I feel about the topics 
being discussed recently on this list and you've done a nice job of 
expressing those opinions clearly.  Thank you as well to the other 
posters who have made an honest effort to understand the meanings of 
my posts and then responded politely.  

To clear up all the misconceptions...if anyone cares at this point, 
that is... :)  

Here's my *personal* views of the Potterverse:

Harry, Hermione, Ron, Fred, George, Percy, Ginny, Draco, Neville and 
Hagrid are all heterosexual, meaning they are attracted to members 
of the opposite sex for purposes of physical and romantic 
attraction.  To me, all have been written as showing attraction to 
members of the opposite sex within the books themselves. 

As far as Remus Lupin and Sirius Black are concerned, I am 
interested in those characters so far beyond what sexual orientation 
they might be that I don't think about it at all.  If neither, both 
or one of them turned out to be gay in further JK Rowling Potter 
books, I wouldn't care one bit and I wouldn't like their characters 
any less because of it.  I like these characters irregardless of 
what sexual orientation they are.  In fact, thinking about sex 
and/or romance and these characters in any configuration and within 
any pairing with other characters disrupts my view of these 
characters because I do not think of them in sexual terms at all.  
For a precise comparison, I don't think of my aunts and uncles in 
sexual terms either.  Harry is the main character in the books and 
in my view of the Potterverse as well, so Lupin and Black are like 
uncles to me, too.  [Harry is my favorite character after all.]  :) 

The possible sexual orientation of every character not mentioned 
above does not really matter to me, and any one of these characters 
being gay or heterosexual is neither positive nor negative to me.  
If pressed to decide the sexual orientation of most, not all, 
supporting and minor characters [including the people we know 
absolutely nothing about, like those quoted in Filch's Kwikspell 
letter] I would probably think, offhandedly, of that character as 
being heterosexual. Because I am heterosexual myself I would most 
likely assign heterosexual orientation to a character without 
thinking about it.  Assigning fictional characters traits and 
preferences you're familiar with in your own everyday life is a part 
of being human.    

Do I believe every single character ever mentioned in the Harry 
Potter books, no matter how major or minor, from a Hogwarts spirit 
to one of the muggles who saw the flying Ford Anglia, is 
heterosexual?  No, I do not.  I don't think JK Rowling has revealed 
enough about many of these characters to let us glimpse those 
aspects of the characters' lives.  

I do not read Harry Potter based fanfics, that means zip, zilch, 
nada, zero, big-fat-goose-egg, etc.  Regardless of an HP fanfics 
sexual content, pairings, plot or quality of writing, I won't read 
it.  I choose not to because I do not want any undue influence upon 
my own personal Potterverse that would inevitably occur by immersing 
myself in another's personal Potterverse.  I may one day change my 
mind in the future and read all manner of fanfics, but for now I 
choose not to read any of them.

I do not value the Harry Potter books because I perceive them 
as 'free' of gay characters.  I do not perceive the books in terms 
of sexual orientation, either for or against the inclusion of gay 
characters, at all.  I value the Harry Potter books because the 
characters are enchanting, the writing's excellent, the plots are 
entertaining and Harry Potter himself is delightful.  The sexual 
orientation of any of the characters has absolutely nothing to do 
with my enjoyment of the books.  I wouldn't dislike the books if 
some of the characters were written [by JK Rowling] as gay, either 
now or in the future books.  I wouldn't love the books more if none 
of the characters were written [by JK Rowling] as gay, either now or 
in the future books.     

Here are the basic facts of what I personally view about the REAL 
WORLD:

I believe all people, regardless of sexual orientation, have the 
right to live their life they way they choose to live it as long as 
the way they live their life doesn't harm other people, whether 
physically or through oppressing that other person's right to live 
their own life.  In the US of A, each person is guaranteed the right 
to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness by law.  I'm pretty 
sure that includes the right to read fictional characters anyway 
they choose.    

I believe that descrimination against others for their sexual 
orientation, skin color, gender or religious beliefs is wrong.  I 
believe that with true freedom comes the realization that that 
freedom means allowing others the right to hold opinions and beliefs 
that you may violently disagree with.  

My personal views of the Potterverse and the real world may not 
match or even remotely resemble your views, and I don't expect nor 
require them to match.  Your Potterverses and views of the real 
world are just as valid as mine.  

Finally, if people on this list choose to believe I am a homophobe 
merely because I choose not to read HP-based slash fanfics, then go 
right ahead.  If it makes you feel righteous to believe that, then 
you're welcome to your beliefs.  I can only state that you've 
misread me and leave it at that.  You have a right to dislike me if 
you want to and I support your right to do it.  How can I not when I 
believe I have a right to my own opinions as well?  I can not have 
one without the other.   

End my discussion of slash fanfic, homosexuality, etc.

Diana




From lupinesque at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 16 12:07:55 2003
From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z <lupinesque@yahoo.com>)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 12:07:55 -0000
Subject: OoP - Cover art, UK edition
In-Reply-To: <b061ll+16uf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b067ar+t1cg@eGroups.com>

Catherine wrote:

> Well, I'm not going to swear, but I can't *believe* that I didn't 
> notice that.  I thought it looked familiar.

Heh.  I went through the same thing.

I like the illustrator who did PA and GF much better.  Hope he's on 
for this one too.

Amy




From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Thu Jan 16 13:34:35 2003
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David <dfrankiswork@netscape.net>)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 13:34:35 -0000
Subject: Flowerbeds?
Message-ID: <b06cdb+p76d@eGroups.com>

Just something I want to clear up from the main list.

As an example of something hinted at in a few posts there, Susan 
McGee wrote:

> I imagine that Harry was lying on his back in the flower bed 
because he desperately did NOT want to be in the same house as the 
Dursleys...I had a relatively happy childhood, but there were still 
times I would sneak out on a warm night and lie in the grass 

The relevant passage is: "a teenage boy who was lying flat on his 
back in a flowerbed"

In my view of gardens, if you are in a flowerbed you can't be on 
grass.  You would be lying on soil or flowers.  Either way, it would 
be uncomfortable.

It's because of this that the combination of flowerbed, on his back, 
and nobody around is odd.

So, is this one of these mysterious UK/US differences?  Would 
Americans call lying on a lawn 'in a flowerbed' under some 
circumstances?

David




From lrcjestes at earthlink.net  Thu Jan 16 14:09:51 2003
From: lrcjestes at earthlink.net (siriusgeologist <lrcjestes@earthlink.net>)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 14:09:51 -0000
Subject: Age suitability of canon
In-Reply-To: <BA4BC48F.57F9%john@queerasjohn.com>
Message-ID: <b06eff+q23f@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Queer as John <john at q...> 
wrote:
> pippin_999 <foxmoth at q...> said:
> 
> > BTW, is anyone out there writing slash they consider suitable for
> > seven year olds? 
> 
> Pippin, the HP books are not suitable for your average seven year 
old. I'll
> defer to a media specialist on exactly which age equivalencies 
they *are*
> suitable for.
> 

I really don't mean to be argumentative this week, but the HP 
released to date definitely *are* suitable for seven year olds.  I 
remember reading one interview that said JKR's 7 yo daughter was 
enjoying the books (can I say that here without having to look up 
the reference.)  They are grouped for 9-12 yos (I think) but there 
is nothing in SS, CoS, or PoA that is not suitable for a 7yo.  Kids 
who scare more easily might be scared by the Dementor's, but my 7yo 
was fine with them.  GoF is a bit different and I paraphrased some 
sections for him.  But the moral and ethical issues brought up by 
this series are ideal for mature kids of that age.

Additionally let me emphasize how few books there are that adult and 
children can read and equally enjoy.  There just aren't that many.  
Either the child is bored by stories that are too complex or the 
adult is bored by stories that are too simplistic.  

Just wanted to clarify that one of the reasons I am an HP fan is 
because they are suitable and fun for me and my kids to read (you 
know the whole family that reads together...etc.).  We need more 
books like this.

That said, I know they are getting darker and you bet I will read 
OoP before I let my (now 9yo...he was actually 6 when we read the 
first three, but 7 when GoF came out) child read it. 

Carole






From rvotaw at i-55.com  Thu Jan 16 14:20:03 2003
From: rvotaw at i-55.com (rvotaw at i-55.com)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 08:20:03 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Flowerbeds?
Message-ID: <4327401.1042726803859.JavaMail.root@webmail.i-55.com>

David wrote:

> It's because of this that the combination of flowerbed, on his back, <BR>
> and nobody around is odd.<BR>
> <BR>
> So, is this one of these mysterious UK/US differences? Would <BR>
> Americans call lying on a lawn 'in a flowerbed' under some <BR>
> circumstances?<BR>

Umm, no.  A flowerbed here is just a, well, flowerbed.  I've never known anyone 
to willing lay down in one.  For what it's worth, my mother insists it's Harry 
laying in the flowerbed talking to Dobby, "or some such creature."  

Richelle

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From rvotaw at i-55.com  Thu Jan 16 14:54:43 2003
From: rvotaw at i-55.com (rvotaw at i-55.com)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 08:54:43 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Age suitability of canon
Message-ID: <32616604.1042728883639.JavaMail.root@webmail.i-55.com>

Carole writes:

> I really don't mean to be argumentative this week, but the HP <BR>
> released to date definitely *are* suitable for seven year olds. I <BR>
> remember reading one interview that said JKR's 7 yo daughter was <BR>
> enjoying the books (can I say that here without having to look up <BR>
> the reference.) They are grouped for 9-12 yos (I think) but there <BR>
> is nothing in SS, CoS, or PoA that is not suitable for a 7yo. Kids <BR>
> who scare more easily might be scared by the Dementor's, but my 7yo <BR>
> was fine with them. GoF is a bit different and I paraphrased some <BR>
> sections for him. But the moral and ethical issues brought up by <BR>
> this series are ideal for mature kids of that age.<BR>

It depends on the seven year old.  Whether the issues are suitable for seven 
year olds is not the question.  I teach first grade, most of my students are 
seven.  None of them could come close to reading HP.  So, read it aloud, you 
say?  Tried that.  We didn't make it through a chapter.  They were clueless.  
The reading level is vastly above them, therefore the comprehension level is as 
well.  That doesn't mean that no seven year old can read it.  JKR's daughter 
was seven at the time of GoF.  She read it.  I'm sure I'd have read HP when I 
was seven (since by that time I'd finished everything else in the children's 
section of the library).  Unfortunately, though, it wasn't written yet.  I did 
read the Chronicles of Narnia when I was about six, I believe.  

My point is, HP is fine for an above average seven year old, one with a fourth 
grade or higher reading level.  For an average seven year old, maybe, with it 
being read aloud.  For a below average seven year old, not a chance. Been 
there, done that, doesn't work.

Richelle

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From cindysphinx at comcast.net  Thu Jan 16 14:58:57 2003
From: cindysphinx at comcast.net (Cindy C. <cindysphinx@comcast.net>)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 14:58:57 -0000
Subject: Flowerbeds?
In-Reply-To: <b06cdb+p76d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b06hbh+le1e@eGroups.com>

David asked:

> The relevant passage is: "a teenage boy who was lying flat on his 
> back in a flowerbed"
> 
<snip> 
>
> So, is this one of these mysterious UK/US differences?  Would 
> Americans call lying on a lawn 'in a flowerbed' under some 
> circumstances?

No, a flowerbed is full of flowers and mulch.  And bugs.  And 
water.  And thorns.  And worms.  So you wouldn't voluntrily lie in 
one if there were anyplace else you might recline.  You'd lie on 
pavement before you reclined in a flower bed.

I think we can also safely assume Harry isn't hiding in a 
flowerbed.  A person hiding wouldn't do that flat on his back; he'd 
crouch or lie on his stomach.

So that means he either fainted, was pushed, or he fell.

I'm going with fell.  Off the roof.  Which would hurt.  And knock 
the wind out of him.  Which is why he's lying there.

And you know what he's thinking about?  

He'll be thinking about having fallen off his broom in CoS and in 
PoA, and he'll transition into thinking about Quidditch and Hogwarts 
and . . . everything.

Although I guess it is also possible that he fell off a ladder while 
being forced to paint the whole house on a hot summer day.  But that 
just doesn't feel right, somehow.

Cindy -- who doesn't even like to step in her flower beds, let alone 
lie in them




From urbana at charter.net  Thu Jan 16 15:21:20 2003
From: urbana at charter.net (Anne <urbana@charter.net>)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 15:21:20 -0000
Subject: Age suitability of canon
In-Reply-To: <32616604.1042728883639.JavaMail.root@webmail.i-55.com>
Message-ID: <b06ilg+f2rf@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, rvotaw at i... wrote:
> Carole writes:
I teach first grade, most of my students are 
> seven.  None of them could come close to reading HP.  So, read it 
aloud, you 
> say?  Tried that.  We didn't make it through a chapter.  They were 
clueless.  
> The reading level is vastly above them, therefore the comprehension 
level is as 
> well.  

I have read all 4 HP books to my daughter, who is in first grade, and 
she was a month shy of 6 when we started last summer. Considering 
that the chapter books I'd read to her previously were things like 
Mary-Kate & Ashley (silly) and Goosebumps (*horrible*), I am actually 
amazed at how much of the storyline she has retained and understood; 
months later she remembers details that I have forgotten.  I am now 
re-reading POA to her -- at her insistence. I have attempted to read 
other non-HP chapter books to her since then, but she doesn't seem 
interested. I am betting she will attempt to read at least PS/SS when 
she's in 3rd  grade --she probably won't finish it but I am sure, 
given her Hermione-like nature (smart, brave and bossy) that she will 
at least attempt it.

> My point is, HP is fine for an above average seven year old, one 
with a fourth 
> grade or higher reading level.  For an average seven year old, 
maybe, with it 
> being read aloud.   

I think it really does depend on the child. (Obviously I think my kid 
is "above average" :-)  

Anne U
(wondering how I'll manage to read OoP myself before I give in to her 
begging and pleading for me to read it aloud to her...)





From duchessmadeleine at yahoo.ca  Thu Jan 16 15:56:19 2003
From: duchessmadeleine at yahoo.ca (Madeleine)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 10:56:19 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Pre-Order - Amazon in Canada 
In-Reply-To: <b05peq+p5se@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20030116155619.14289.qmail@web12208.mail.yahoo.com>


Hi Everyone

For all the Canadians on the list I just recieved the following e-mail from Amazon.ca.  They will NOT be shipping the book until June 21 (when it is released), so you will recieve it the week after some time.  :(  So you may want to rethink preordering if you want it right away.

Made

Here is the response I got (If I misinterpreted this please let me know!): 

Thanks for writing to us at Amazon.ca. 

"Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix," is scheduled to be 
released on June 21, 2003. 

As soon as the publisher releases this book, we'll be fulfilling 
customers orders in the order in witch they were received.  On the 
date of shipment, we will send you an e-mail message confirming the 
date, contents and method of your shipment.  

As per our standard policy, we do not charge you for items until they 
enter the shipping process, so you will not be charged for this title 
until it is available and we have shipped it to you.

Thanks for shopping at Amazon.ca.




---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From lupinesque at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 16 16:01:53 2003
From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z <lupinesque@yahoo.com>)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 16:01:53 -0000
Subject: Flowerbeds?
In-Reply-To: <b06hbh+le1e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b06l1h+62am@eGroups.com>

Cindy wrote:

> No, a flowerbed is full of flowers and mulch.  And bugs.  And 
> water.  And thorns.  And worms.  So you wouldn't voluntrily lie in 
> one if there were anyplace else you might recline.  You'd lie on 
> pavement before you reclined in a flower bed.

Well, call me a hippie, but I wouldn't mind lying in a flowerbed.  
It's not like lying on the grass, no, and wouldn't be my first 
choice, but grass lawn is a bit wide open if your aim is to have a 
quiet spot to yourself.  If there's nice soft mulch, lots of room 
between the flowers, and fairly high bushy flowers to hide in, it 
might be a good way to escape from the family.  If he's actually 
lying on any of the flowers, of course, Aunt Petunia will kill him.

Amy




From s_ings at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 16 16:30:18 2003
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 11:30:18 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Pre-Order - Amazon in Canada
In-Reply-To: <20030116155619.14289.qmail@web12208.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20030116163018.91335.qmail@web41113.mail.yahoo.com>

Amazon.ca is not the only option for ordering Canadian
versions. You could always use Chapters/Indigo
instead. I ordered GoF through them, at the last
minute to boot, and got the book delivered right on
time on the date of release.

Sheryll

 --- Madeleine <duchessmadeleine at yahoo.ca> wrote: > 
> Hi Everyone
> 
> For all the Canadians on the list I just recieved
> the following e-mail from Amazon.ca.  They will NOT
> be shipping the book until June 21 (when it is
> released), so you will recieve it the week after
> some time.  :(  So you may want to rethink
> preordering if you want it right away.
> 
> Made
> 
> Here is the response I got (If I misinterpreted this
> please let me know!): 
> 
> Thanks for writing to us at Amazon.ca. 
> 
> "Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix," is
> scheduled to be 
> released on June 21, 2003. 
> 
> As soon as the publisher releases this book, we'll
> be fulfilling 
> customers orders in the order in witch they were
> received.  On the 
> date of shipment, we will send you an e-mail message
> confirming the 
> date, contents and method of your shipment.  
> 
> As per our standard policy, we do not charge you for
> items until they 
> enter the shipping process, so you will not be
> charged for this title 
> until it is available and we have shipped it to you.
> 
> Thanks for shopping at Amazon.ca.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------
> Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
> 
> 
>
________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________
> 
> Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the
> group's Admin Files!
>
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/
> 
> Remember to use accurate subject headings and to
> snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're
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> 
> Is your message...
> An announcement of merchandise, news etc.? Send it
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> Movie-related? Send it to HPFGU-Movie.
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> HPforGrownups.
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=====
"We need to be united and strong. We'll have losses and scares, sure. And you'll be there for each other, helping each other through the bad times."
 blpurdom - Harry Potter and the Psychic Serpent, Chapter 26

______________________________________________________________________ 
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca



From duchessmadeleine at yahoo.ca  Thu Jan 16 16:47:23 2003
From: duchessmadeleine at yahoo.ca (Madeleine)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 11:47:23 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Pre-Order - Amazon in Canada
In-Reply-To: <20030116163018.91335.qmail@web41113.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20030116164723.32378.qmail@web12207.mail.yahoo.com>


Thanks Sheryll
I just ordered through Chapters, they don't say anything about delivery, but the cost was pretty good.  In the past Chapters has been pretty quick on their deliveries so I am hoping it will be that way this time too. 
Made
 Sheryll Townsend <s_ings at yahoo.com> wrote:Amazon.ca is not the only option for ordering Canadian
versions. You could always use Chapters/Indigo
instead. I ordered GoF through them, at the last
minute to boot, and got the book delivered right on
time on the date of release.

Sheryll

--- Madeleine <duchessmadeleine at yahoo.ca> wrote: > 
> Hi Everyone
> 
> For all the Canadians on the list I just recieved
> the following e-mail from Amazon.ca.  They will NOT
> be shipping the book until June 21 (when it is
> released), so you will recieve it the week after
> some time.  :(  So you may want to rethink
> preordering if you want it right away.
> 
> Made
> 
> Here is the response I got (If I misinterpreted this
> please let me know!): 
> 
> Thanks for writing to us at Amazon.ca. 
> 
> "Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix," is
> scheduled to be 
> released on June 21, 2003. 
> 
> As soon as the publisher releases this book, we'll
> be fulfilling 
> customers orders in the order in witch they were
> received.  On the 
> date of shipment, we will send you an e-mail message
> confirming the 
> date, contents and method of your shipment.  
> 
> As per our standard policy, we do not charge you for
> items until they 
> enter the shipping process, so you will not be
> charged for this title 
> until it is available and we have shipped it to you.
> 
> Thanks for shopping at Amazon.ca.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------
> Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
> 
> 
>
________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________
> 
> Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the
> group's Admin Files!
>
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/
> 
> Remember to use accurate subject headings and to
> snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're
> replying!
> 
> Is your message...
> An announcement of merchandise, news etc.? Send it
> to HPFGU-Announcements.
> Movie-related? Send it to HPFGU-Movie.
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> HPforGrownups.
> None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter.
> Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf
> or the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com
> 
> Unsubscribing? Email
> HPFGU-OTChatter-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
>
____________________________________________________________
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
>  

=====
"We need to be united and strong. We'll have losses and scares, sure. And you'll be there for each other, helping each other through the bad times."
blpurdom - Harry Potter and the Psychic Serpent, Chapter 26

______________________________________________________________________ 
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca

Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT

________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________

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Is your message...
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Movie-related? Send it to HPFGU-Movie.
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From foxmoth at qnet.com  Thu Jan 16 17:55:02 2003
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999 <foxmoth@qnet.com>)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 17:55:02 -0000
Subject: Slash and parenting, age appropriateness and hate
In-Reply-To: <b03529+fin7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b06rlm+agq1@eGroups.com>

Ebony said:
>>But you wouldn't go as far as to tell your son not to read H/H 
fanfiction that was age-appropriate, would you? I mean, I don't 
have quite your H/H reaction on my part to R/H (as after all, I have 
written that ship), but a few of my students do read R/H fanfiction 
and enjoy it. And you know that I love writing and reading H/H 
stories, but you don't hate me for it... you even beta-read, and I 
value what you've done for it.

OTOH, what we're talking here is a real bias that seems to affect 
the judgment and good sense of others.<<

Exactly. I'm not violently anti-H/H. What I wrote in my previous 
post was probably the closest I've ever come to a rant on my 
position. But if some gonzo religious leader goes on the news 
tomorrow and declares that H/H is obscene, am I going to be 
accused of creating the atmosphere that made it possible?

Should I henceforth avoid mentioning my dislike of H/H, even if I 
declare that I absolutely am not in sympathy with the radicals? 
Will my declaration automatically be suspect?

BTW, I have never forbidden my son to read anything, including 
the musty paperbacks that Daddy keeps under the bed. OTOH, I 
really did stand over my son's shoulder when he was using the 
Internet, until I  felt that he had accepted the duty of moral 
responsibility, could recognize propaganda and hatemongering, 
and was reasonably capable of dealing with scary stuff, sexual 
and otherwise.

John said (#13423):

>>However, yes, I and hundreds of others have written slash 
which would have a cinema PG-13 rating, i.e. a rating roughly 
similar to GoF. There is yet more slash which would have a PG 
rating.<<

The PG stands for Parental Guidance. In adopting the system, 
you  not only concede  my right as a parent to decide what is 
suitable for my child, you advise me to exercise it. 

I defend the right to make decisions for my child in this area, 
including bad ones. A five year old friend of mine once asked me 
for a fan fic. Suppose I had  wanted to find one for him instead of 
writing it myself. It seems there are so few slash stories that 
would be suitable for a child that age that I might as well, for 
convenience, rule out the whole category. If I had asked for help 
in sorting the summaries so as to do that, would I be a 
homophobe?

I also think it is a legitimate concern to ask whether an adult HP 
site constitutes what in real estate we call an "attractive 
nuisance," and if so what extra precautions might be taken. (1) 
This of course does not apply to HP alone, but since there are so 
many children who are into HP it does seem legitimate that the 
question might arise in connection with HP. 

John said (#13388):
>>I believe that hate is not a right and that people should fight
it wherever it occurs.<<

I strongly disagree. We can't fight hate anymore than we can fight 
love. Hate is a normal human response to pain and fear, which 
are also normal. We can  fight haters, but if we must or we 
should,  then let us be  sure before we engage them that the 
hate is theirs and not ours.

IMO, what we can do is to teach that not every hurt is intentional, 
and that no matter how dangerous a thing may be, and hate can 
indeed be very dangerous, the fear of it is ours alone. One of the 
most important things we learn through fantasy is that we can 
not gauge the reality of a threat by how much we fear it. 
Let us be careful not to mistake for hate what I would call, for lack 
of a better term, vehement ignorance.

If somebody says, on the main list, in their usual ranty way, that 
Hogwarts is a Christian institution, should I accuse him of 
hatemongering and devaluing my religion? Or if I say that in my 
Potterverse the wizards do not honor Christ at Christmas any 
more than Christians honor the Goddess Eastre at Eastertime, 
am I devaluing of Christians?  Or are we all trying, in the poverty 
of language and imagination, to dream of a world where religion 
divides us no more?

Pippin

1) Ordinarily, if a tresspasser injures himself, the property owner 
is not responsible. However, if there is something like a swing 
set or a swimming pool visible from the boundary, then the 
property owner has the responsibility, and must either fence the 
item off or conceal it to avoid liability.




From annemehr at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 16 18:17:38 2003
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr <annemehr@yahoo.com>)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 18:17:38 -0000
Subject: Slash and homosexuality
In-Reply-To: <b060nk+of3t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b06t02+86s2@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Steve <bboy_mn at y...>" 
<bboy_mn at y...> wrote:

> > ...substantially edited...

> Since you identified yourself as a Conservative [in the part I cut
> out] rather than a Rupublican, is it safe to assume you are in 
Britian
> or at least not in the US? Just curious.


No, I am a US citizen, (tho' I did live in Abingdon in England the 
year I was 11).  I just said "conservative" (small "c") in response to 
John's 'liberal'.

> 
> "...murder is murder..." actually it's not. That's why I asked if 
you
> were in the UK, because there they don't have a range of crimes for
> killing people. 
> 
> Here in the US killing someone, even intentionally falls into a
> spectrum of criminal offense; conspiricy, accessory, manslaughter,
> third degree murder, second degree murder, first degree murder,
> negligent homicide, and each of these has a range within each 
catagory
> that make allowances for special circumstances. 
> 

<snip>

 
> Point? Courts have alway give consideration to 'special 
circumstances'
> in the crime of murder (in it's various forms). The difference is 
that
> not all judges interpret the circumstances the same way. A good
> example, several decades ago a white person killing a negro in the
> south would have a sympathetic judge and a light sentence, a negro
> killing a white person under the identical circumstances, would have 
a
> very UNsypathetic judge and receive a harsh sentance. 
> 
> Now change that example to gay people; one judge would say 'good
> riddance', another judge would be outraged. Hate crime create a
> universal legal opinion that judges can't ignore.

Aha! Okay, *there's* a good reason for the hate-crimes law.

>You can't single 
out
> groups of people then with premeditation, stalk them, and seek them
> out with the intent of killing them. Those represent special
> circumstances in a crime of murder. You can't kill Jew simply 
because
> they are Jew.  You can't kill gay people simply because they are 
gay.
> Those are special circumstances crimes.

True. But, they can still be either premeditated (stalking) or 
spontaneous (running into a person of the hated group randomly 
somewhere and killing without any forethought).  With the premeditated 
 crimes, the intent may be much easier to prove.  In the case of the 
unpremeditated murder, unless you have reliable witnesses, how would 
anyone know whether the victim was killed in a hate crime or just 
because they got into some unrelated argument?  I think some care 
would have to be taken *not* to apply the hate-crime law to cases 
where the victim's status in a group *is not proven* to be a factor in 
the crime (by the "reasonable doubt" standard).

<snip>

> Conclusion, law has alway given consideration to special 
circumstances
> in crimes. Hate crime laws assure that 'those' particular
> circumstances are not ignored or overlooked by some judges.
> 
> Just a few thoughts. (and I promise the moderators not to let this
> conversation go too far.)
> 
> bboy_mn

I guess my concern was that there have come to be so many 
circumstances to consider that it can get extremely confusing for a 
jury (or judge), which may make justice that much harder to attain.  
It almost seems like a poker game with prosecutors and defenders going 
for whatever they think they can get.  But I do take your point that 
hate-crimes need to be defined in the law to prevent judges and juries 
from purposefully overlooking their seriousness.

Now I am wondering: if someone who hates a particular group of people 
commits a crime against one of them, without any advance planning, but 
simply for belonging to that group, can that ever *truly* said to be 
"unpremeditated"?  Or does their unchecked hatred serve as a form of 
premeditation in itself? <trying to make the topic a bit less 
political and a bit more philosophical...>

Annemehr
 




From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Thu Jan 16 18:22:08 2003
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David <dfrankiswork@netscape.net>)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 18:22:08 -0000
Subject: OOP question
Message-ID: <b06t8g+t47p@eGroups.com>

I notice that a number of you have ordered both UK and US versions.  
Do we know for definite that an American 'translation' is to be 
published this time?

David




From heidit at netbox.com  Thu Jan 16 15:28:15 2003
From: heidit at netbox.com (Heidi Tandy)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 11:28:15 -0400
Subject: Fw from the main list: [HPforGrownups] The Book: Maybe it's a good thing.
Message-ID: <mailman.24.1576049042.5361.hpfgu-otchatter@archive.hpfgu.org>

I'm taking this from the main list, as I thing I'm taking it quite off topic. 

What does the not-quite-six-month wait mean for you?

For me it's:
1 healthy baby born (God willing)
Approx 25+ sponsors of Nimbus - 2003 signed
Likely 10,000 fics and chapters submitted to FictionAlley - and about 6000 uploaded
1 chapter - the last - of surfeit of curses, my fanfic, which I really do need to finish
Hundreds, if not thousands of newbies to this wonderful fandom
One and a half plane trips - I'm writing this somewhere over colorado
And just over 250 pieces of sushi.    

Sounds like a solid few months. 
-----Original Message-----
From: "Steve <bboy_mn at yahoo.com>" <bboy_mn at yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 09:27:36 
To:HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Book: Maybe it's a good thing.

Real-To:  "Steve <bboy_mn at yahoo.com>" <bboy_mn at yahoo.com>

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Scott Northrup" <snorth at u...>
wrote:

> 
> Me:
> ..edited...
> ... was anyone else overcome with despair that they'd have to wait
>  a solid six more months before they could read OotP?
> 
> ... six months for me is 
> 10 midterms
> 8(!) finals
> 48 homework assignments (approximately)  
> 300 hours of class 
> 250 hours of work ...over tens of thousands of lines of code,
> countless sums performed in my head.  *shudders*
> 
> Six months is FOREVER.
> 
> -Scott

bboy_mn:
In view of your schedule, perhaps it's best if the book doesn't come
out for 6 more months.

Also, you forgot-
200 bottles of beer
30 pizza
40 parties
150 hamburgers
100 orders of french fries
80 hours of nightclub dancing
and all the other staples of college life.

Yes, I think it's best if you wait until the end of the school year.

Of course, that just my opinon.

bboy_mn





________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________

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From lupinesque at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 16 18:38:40 2003
From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z <lupinesque@yahoo.com>)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 18:38:40 -0000
Subject: OOP question
In-Reply-To: <b06t8g+t47p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b06u7g+i73k@eGroups.com>

David wrote:

> I notice that a number of you have ordered both UK and US 
versions.  
> Do we know for definite that an American 'translation' is to be 
> published this time?

Good question.  If anyone gets the answer to this between now and 
June 21, please post it to Announcements.  It'll save some of us a 
lot of hassle.

Since I don't want the US edition but also don't want to wait, my 
Canadian connection and I are going to swap volumes after we've 
bought and read the ones that are available locally.  Thanks, Sheryll!

Amy




From annemehr at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 16 18:42:36 2003
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr <annemehr@yahoo.com>)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 18:42:36 -0000
Subject: OOP question
In-Reply-To: <b06t8g+t47p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b06ues+u9cf@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "David <dfrankiswork at n...>" 
<dfrankiswork at n...> wrote:
> I notice that a number of you have ordered both UK and US versions. 
 
> Do we know for definite that an American 'translation' is to be 
> published this time?
> 
> David

Yes, we do!  Bloomsbury and Scholastic issued a joint press release 
(check www.bloomsburymagazine.com or www.scholastic.com).  June 21 *is 
* the US release date.  And I, for one, certainly hope Scholatic can 
show a lot more restraint in the "translating" department!

Annemehr
wanting all the UK editions too, but probably waiting for the 7-book 
boxed set, just to make things simpler...




From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk  Thu Jan 16 18:50:30 2003
From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 18:50:30 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: OOP question
References: <b06ues+u9cf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3E26FEF6.000001.56277@monica>



-------Original Message-------

From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
Date: 16 January 2003 18:42:43
To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: OOP question


Annemehr
wanting all the UK editions too, but probably waiting for the 7-book 
boxed set, just to make things simpler...

Simpler is obviously subjective - because if they grow at this rate your box
set is going to be taller than the average readership of the books and you
re going to need a truck to get it home. Not to mention what the p&p would
be on something that size.

K



From skelkins at attbi.com  Thu Jan 16 19:38:03 2003
From: skelkins at attbi.com (ssk7882 <skelkins@attbi.com>)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 19:38:03 -0000
Subject: LOLLIPOPS, Draco, and Preference vs prediction
In-Reply-To: <avuhuf+tu5c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b071mr+pc86@eGroups.com>

This is all getting rather dangerously on-topic, thanks to
David and his sneaky ways, but since we're still talking more
about reader desire than canonical plausibility, I guess it
can stay here for now.

I sighed in resignation over the canonical likelihood that Snape
Loved Lily, and Acire hastened to reassure me:

> There's still hope! Maybe he just didn't know Lily at *all*, so 
> doesn't feel he's justified to criticize her in front of her son. 
> Maybe he's just completely indifferent to her! 

<clings to Acire in desperation>

Yes, yes!  He didn't even *know* her!  He...

<sigh>

It doesn't really seem very likely, does it?

Tabouli smirked:

> Heh heh heh. Resistance is useless. Even those who detest the very 
> idea of LOLLIPOPS have to admit it fits very neatly with the 
> evidence (eyes Elkins suspiciously, searching for telltale pockets 
> bulging with spray paint). 

<opens eyes very wide and starts whistling innocently>

> I've never thought there was any *actual* sexual relationship 
> between Snape and Lily. Even I would find that a bit icky. 

Really?  

<Elkins pulls her can of spray paint out of her pocket and eyes
the bowsprit contemplatively>

Oh, I'd find that a lot less ewwwww, myself.  I wouldn't mind seeing 
Lily toppled from that Ever So Irritating pedestal.  In fact...

<closes one eye and tilts her head to the side, then holds up a hand, 
thoughtfully framing the canvas of the timbers>

In fact, we now know that Dumbledore is going to be revealing *some* 
important news to Harry in Book Five, do we not?  Something that 
he hesitated to share with him before?  Something that he *should*
have, perhaps, but wanted to spare the poor lad?  

<begins slowly shaking can of spray paint>

Have you ever thought it rather *suspicious,* Tabouli, the way
that Harry looks so *very* much like his father?  I mean, what 
*are* the chances of that, anyway, when ones mother is a redhead?  

Do the chances go up when said redhead excels at Charms?

<Elkins gives her can of spray paint it one last shake, then sighs, 
shrugs, and puts it back in her pocket>

Nah, not in the mood.  Besides, I agree with you that Tortured 
Yearning Unrequited Snape is far more canonically defensible,
and it's the only version of Snape Loved Lily that I'm really
expecting to see in canon.

Not, of course, that I couldn't be surprised.

> As for the driving force of Lurv, like it or not, it *does* happen, 
> as well you anti-romantics know. Eros is a powerful force. 

Yes, of course it is.  But it's not the *only* powerful force out 
there.  It's just the one of the very few that our society happens to 
have deemed *acceptable.*  It's also, unsurprisingly, the one that 
tends to play that role ad nauseum in our fiction.  It's the socially 
acceptable motivation, the "approved" one, and I tend to agree with 
Amy here: just because it really does happen doesn't mean that I've 
any desire to see it promulgated yet *again* in a work of fiction.  
I'd rather see something else for a change.

Really, to give up ones home or inheritance or family or friends for 
eros is rather smiled upon in our culture, isn't it?  It's the stuff 
of our fantasies, of our films, of our fictions.  Some people may 
cluck and shake their heads, but others will smile indulgently.  All 
the world loves a lover, right?  People don't often get locked up on 
mental wards or abducted and maltreated by "deprogrammers" for making 
those kinds of decisions because they fell in *love.*

The same, sadly, cannot be said for those who make similar decisions 
for other reasons.  We don't call those people "romantics."  All too 
often, we call them "schizophrenics," and then we seek to "cure" them.

> I don't think having a crisis of conscience and swapping sides 
> because your political leader has ordered you to kill the woman you 
> secretly loved in high school is beyond the bounds of plausibility 
> at all. 

No, it's not beyond the bounds of plausibility.  What disturbs me is 
that we seem to have reached the point at which some people believe 
that it is the *only* explanation which is not beyond the bounds of 
plausibility.

Eros is the ubiquitous explanation given for such characters' actions 
in fiction, and not only does this bother me on philosophical 
grounds, but it also means that I've come to view it as rather, well, 
trite.

I would personally prefer for canon to give us just about *any* other 
explanation for dear Severus' actions.  Frankly, I'd rather learn 
that he switched sides because he hallucinated his neighbor's dog 
*ordering* him to do it than that he did it because he loved Lily.

But hey.  That's just me.  Tastes differ.

> The bounds of taste, of course, being rather more subjective.

Precisely.

> (Hmmm. How often do people do such radical things under the 
> influence of one of the other three loves? Any thoughts?)

Oh, I think that happens more often than one might think.  You tend 
to meet a lot of such people if you spend any time on mental wards.  
Or involved with psychiatric survivors' organizations.  Or with 
childrens' rights organizations.

(Now, why am I beginning to feel that this conversation is rapidly 
becoming *WAY* too self-revelatory?)

> Liking it or not is not the issue here. You can board the Good Ship 
> while hating every timber, if you like. 

Why, of course you can, Tabouli!  But when you do so, it is generally 
in the best interests of the Captain to wonder just precisely *what* 
you may have in your pocketses...

Seriously, though, it's always seemed to me that the entire "ship"
metaphor represents a bit more than merely finding a purported
future romance canonically *plausible.*  Those who board 'ships
are, generally speaking, also *promoters* of said 'ships, are they
not?  In other words, they not only perceive that the romantic spec 
is canonically defensible; they are also willing to go to all the 
trouble to actively *man* said can(n)ons to defend said 'ship.  
"Shippers" aren't just analysts.  They're *rooters.*

I do think that LOLLIPOPS is an eminently defensible speculation.  
I'd just far rather spend my time and energy spray-painting graffiti 
on it than defending it.

But that brings us to David's comments...

David, rapidly succeeding in his latest ulterior agenda of blurring 
the distinction between on-topic and off-topic, wrote:

> Now, I do think most LOLLIPOPS sailors like their ship. 

I think that's likely because only those who actually like
the ship declare themselves "members of its crew."  That's 
just the way the shipping metaphor is constructed within the 
fandom.  

I think that R/H is more canonically plausible than H/H, for 
example, but I would hardly describe myself as an R/H "shipper," 
or describe myself as sailing around on the Good Ship R/H.  The 
metaphor implies to my mind not only an acceptance of canonical 
possibility, but also a more generalized sense of reader 
approval or reader desire.  

Which gets us back to what happens when these do not 
intersect.

David (on redeemable Draco):

> I just can't remember it, and have to confess I don't know which 
> way round she means. Who thinks Draco is an abominable little tick 
> who deserves the Dementor's Kiss but just knows that softie JKR is 
> going to have him throw himself in front of the AK intended for 
> Harry? Who feels Draco is really a complex misunderstood and 
> tortured soul who will never be allowed to do more than lose 
> Quidditch matches and fail to get the last taunt?

Any takers?

It does seem to me that whenever redeemable Draco comes up on the 
main list, you tend to see a lot of statements that at least 
strongly *imply* these positions.  People write things like, "Gah, 
I sure *hope* that Draco won't be redeemed -- I just loathe him!" 
or "I would just *love* to see JKR push Draco in a more sympathetic 
direction...but I really don't think that she's going to."  What
such statements always imply to my mind is that the writer fears
that canonical plausibility may actually be weighing against her 
personal preference.

In fact, this past summer, there was that entire thread on which 
people were talking about the book burning party that they were 
going to throw, should JKR redeem Draco in death.  What else could 
that have been but an expression of reader anxiety?  It doesn't 
seem to me that people talk in quite the same way about how upset
they will feel should JKR ever decide to make Harry evil, or redeem 
Voldemort, or hook Draco up with Ginny.  I suspect that this is 
because very few people seriously entertain the notion that any of 
those speculations will ever become canon.  In contrast, I'd say 
that many readers do feel a strong sense of uncertainty about 
where the author plans to go with Draco.

Now me, I'm a Draco Agnostic when it comes to canonical 
plausibility.  I really can see the author going a number of 
different ways with the character at this point in the story, and I 
wouldn't be willing to lay any bets at all on that outcome right 
now.  But there's no doubt or ambivalence at all in my mind about 
what I would *prefer.*  I would very much *like* it for JKR to give 
us a Redeemed!Draco scenario.  I'm actually rooting for the little 
brat, God only knows why.  But that's just my reader desire, which 
isn't at all the same thing as my evaluation of canonical 
plausibility.

Back to LOLLIPOPS...

> Personally, I never thought it very plausible, and once Elkins 
> suggested the *Pettigrew/Lily* possibility LOLLIPOPS took a hit 
> below the waterline as far as my own estimation was concerned. 
> I mean, how *many* life-courses are going to be reversed by 
> desire for her?

<slow smile>

Weeeeeeell... 

You see, David, since as we all know, *only* the Love Of A Woman 
could *possibly* ever lead *any* man to do *anything* radical or 
unpredictable or unexpected or foolhardy, then naturally we must 
assume that both Lily and the future Mrs. Lestrange must have been 
quite the little heart-breakers in their day, no?  After all, why 
else would poor widdle Peter or darling Barty Crouch or Our Dear 
Severus or my boy Avery have ever done *anything,* were it not for 
the love of one of those two...Smurfettes?

Oh, who *is* Florence, what is *she,* that all her swains commend 
her? 


Elkins

who thinks that if you really want to bring down a ship, then blows 
below the waterline are absolutely the way to go, and who suspects 
that David, too, appreciates this as a truism




From skelkins at attbi.com  Thu Jan 16 20:05:19 2003
From: skelkins at attbi.com (ssk7882 <skelkins@attbi.com>)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 20:05:19 -0000
Subject: Various Couplethinking Responses
In-Reply-To: <avs6fo+c25a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b073a0+fd8p@eGroups.com>

Bit of a catch-all here.

Pippin wrote:

> (Who is The Elkins, what is she? And who can comprehend her?)

LOL!  Oh, dear.  I'm not really *that* bad, am I?  Perhaps I need
to take a course in technical writing?

> But seriously, I think that many people aren't as compartmentalized 
> as The Four Loves philosophy implies. I think many people really 
> can't feel any kind of love strongly without arousing a sort of 
> echo from the others. 

You know, I wonder if that is it?  It certainly isn't the case for 
me -- I love my housemate as deeply and utterly as I can imagine
loving anyone, yet feel absolutely no sense of romantic or erotic
desire for him at all -- but maybe I'm just freakish that way?

Certainly if this is true, then it would explain much of human
behavior that I confess often leaves me feeling simply perplexed
and irritable.

At any rate, I think that I will try to take that possibility into 
account when dealing with the mystifying and annoying behavior of
homo sapiens in the future.  Whether true or not, it *works* as an 
explanation, which is valuable to me.  So thank you, Pippin.


Acire wrote:

> My mother constantly tells me that if I am not more romantic 
> towards my boyfriend, I will end up alone and bitter...

<winces>

Youch.  You too, eh?  I had a college lecturer once who told me that 
I was an angry young woman and "like all angry young women, you will 
die bitter and alone."  Now, isn't that just lovely.

My parents, on the other hand, insisted that I would end up badly not
because I was angry, but rather, because I was selfish, manipulative, 
inconsiderate and ungrateful, as well as probably incapable of real 
love; because I take, take, take, while never giving back a thing in 
return; and because while I might be able to fool some of the people 
some of the time with my appealing (yet fundamentally shallow) 
charismatics, in the end everyone would see through my little scam 
and perceive me for the errant fraud that I really am.

<looks around household, checks watch.  Raises eyebrow.  Shrugs.>

Well, would you look at that!  It really *is* taking them a long time
to catch on to my little game, isn't it?

I'm taking a light tone here, but those kinds of parental scripts 
really can leave marks, I know.  Don't let them scare you too much, 
okay?


Ebony wrote:

> If there is any area of friendship I'd most like to experience, 
> it's a completely platonic relationship with a straight guy.  

Interesting, that, because for whatever strange reason, the vast 
majority of my completely platonic relationships have always been 
with straight guys.  It's friendships with straight women that I've 
not had much experience with in the past, which is part of what 
makes this on-line community so very exciting for me.  


Elkins




From catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk  Thu Jan 16 20:39:48 2003
From: catherine at cator-manor.demon.co.uk (Catherine Coleman <catherine@cator-manor.demon.co.uk>)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 20:39:48 -0000
Subject: Various Couplethinking Responses
In-Reply-To: <b073a0+fd8p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b075ak+8lvd@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "ssk7882 <skelkins at a...>" 
<skelkins at a...> wrote:

> Ebony wrote:
> 
> > If there is any area of friendship I'd most like to experience, 
> > it's a completely platonic relationship with a straight guy.  
> 
> Interesting, that, because for whatever strange reason, the vast 
> majority of my completely platonic relationships have always been 
> with straight guys.  It's friendships with straight women that 
I've 
> not had much experience with in the past, which is part of what 
> makes this on-line community so very exciting for me.  
> 
> 
> Elkins

A resounding "me too" to Ebony's comment.  Before I met my husband, 
I had several straight male friends.  People that I really loved, 
who I'd known for years - people that I thought I'd know for ever.  
And you know what, since I got married, they've all disappeared.  I 
caught up with one of them last weekend - he responded to my 
Christmas card and called me, and we were on the telephone for over 
3 hours, but I still got the feeling that it was a one off.  I still 
have very close gay male friends, but as for the rest...  I still 
can't figure out why it happened, but other married friends have 
told me that it's always the way.

Why?

I also agree with Elkins' comments.  In the past, most of my friends 
have been male;  I have one very close female friend who I have 
known since I started college and that is it.  The number of people 
I have met and formed friendships with since I joined HPFGU has been 
a wonderful experience for me.  I love it.

Catherine




From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 16 20:43:24 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve <bboy_mn@yahoo.com>)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 20:43:24 -0000
Subject: The prefect flowerbed solution. (at least I think so)
Message-ID: <b075hc+nk6v@eGroups.com>

This idea was inspired by someone in the main group and essentially
the same thing is posted there, but I thought it was such a cool idea
that I would post it here where the flowerbed thread is flourishing.

Someone suggested that this summer (in the book) Harry would go over
to Mrs. Figgs and see... (drumroll... fanfare...) Sirius and Remus.
Now if that isn't enough to make Harry faint dead away into the
flowerbed, I don't know what is. 

This is of course based on my own and others speculation that Mrs.
Figg and Sirius have a closer relationship than just casual aquaintances.

If there was every anything that would bowl someone over, it would be
seen Sirius near Privet Drive. Even if it doesn't happen, I still
think it's a cool idea.

(Alternate theory, Harry is out in the yard (garden to you brits) and
a big black dog comes bounding across the yard and knocks Harry over.
Hey, it could happen.

Just a thought.

bboy_mn




From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 16 20:59:13 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve <bboy_mn@yahoo.com>)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 20:59:13 -0000
Subject: Amazon in Canada - Versions?
In-Reply-To: <20030116163018.91335.qmail@web41113.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <b076f1+aoqs@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Sheryll Townsend <s_ings at y...>
wrote:
> Amazon.ca is not the only option for ordering Canadian
> versions. You could always use Chapters/Indigo
> instead. 

bboy_mn:

Sorry to interupt with this distraction, but could someone tell me if
the Canadian version is the same as the American translation, or (I
hope) is it identical to the British translation. Or, is it indeed a
translation into a third form of English? [British="All right Harry?";
Canadian="Hey, you hoser." ;)]

If it's the British version and the Canadian version are the same,
that might be a way for us in the USA to get British version and save
some shipping cost.

Does anybody know??

bboy_mn




From duchessmadeleine at yahoo.ca  Thu Jan 16 21:02:26 2003
From: duchessmadeleine at yahoo.ca (Madeleine)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 16:02:26 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Amazon in Canada - Versions?
In-Reply-To: <b076f1+aoqs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20030116210226.27893.qmail@web12205.mail.yahoo.com>


Yes the Canadian version is the English version.  Exactly the same as the one you would order from the UK.  :)   
 "Steve <bboy_mn at yahoo.com>" <bboy_mn at yahoo.com> wrote:Sorry to interupt with this distraction, but could someone tell me if
the Canadian version is the same as the American translation, or (I
hope) is it identical to the British translation. Or, is it indeed a
translation into a third form of English? [British="All right Harry?";
Canadian="Hey, you hoser." ;)]

If it's the British version and the Canadian version are the same,
that might be a way for us in the USA to get British version and save
some shipping cost.

Does anybody know??

bboy_mn



---------------------------------
Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From jayemelle at earthlink.net  Thu Jan 16 21:37:18 2003
From: jayemelle at earthlink.net (tesseract197 <jayemelle@earthlink.net>)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 21:37:18 -0000
Subject: Flowerbeds?
In-Reply-To: <b06l1h+62am@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b078me+6tu5@eGroups.com>

Amy:
> Well, call me a hippie, but I wouldn't mind lying in a flowerbed.  
> It's not like lying on the grass, no, and wouldn't be my first 
> choice, but grass lawn is a bit wide open if your aim is to have a 
> quiet spot to yourself.  If there's nice soft mulch, lots of room 
> between the flowers, and fairly high bushy flowers to hide in, it 
> might be a good way to escape from the family.  If he's actually 
> lying on any of the flowers, of course, Aunt Petunia will kill him.

Me:
Hear, hear!  (Or is it, "Here, here"?  I've never figured that one 
out.)  Anyway, I agree wholeheartedly.  I'm firmly in the camp of 
those who believe this is a quiet, peaceful moment, not one that 
falls in the aftermath of some violence against Harry.  In my mind, 
the reason he's the only one "left" outside is that Dudley, having 
broken his Smeltings stick by banging it against one too many things 
(or people), has dragged his parents off to get a new one--because 
heaven forbid he should be without his favorite weapon while his 
crazy cousin is at his house :o)  The Dursleys have just piled into 
the car, leaving Harry to do some yard work (it is, after all, the 
hottest day of the summer), and as soon as they're out of sight, he 
decides to take advantage of their absence to relax in the 
(hopefully) cushy mulch of the flowerbed.  It's the most comfortable 
option he has, because I've always imagined the house on Privet Drive 
to have really short, impeccably manicured, Astroturfy grass that 
looks nice but wouldn't be all that comfortable to lie on anyway.  So 
that's what I think this is--a nice, peaceful moment that allows 
Harry to relax, think and commit some slight anti-Dursley subterfuge 
all at once.  As dark as OoP promises to be, I think it'd be nice to 
be eased into it with a brief moment of calm.

Tess




From jenP_97 at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 16 21:44:48 2003
From: jenP_97 at yahoo.com (Jennifer Piersol <jenP_97@yahoo.com>)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 21:44:48 -0000
Subject: OOP question
In-Reply-To: <b06t8g+t47p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b0794g+ba1n@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "David <dfrankiswork at n...>"
<dfrankiswork at n...> wrote:
> I notice that a number of you have ordered both UK and US versions.  
> Do we know for definite that an American 'translation' is to be 
> published this time?
> 
> David

Well, in truth, the last book wasn't really "translated" that much. 
Such a rush in publishing (and such a long book) was probably the main
reason, although I'd like to believe that the growing American
backlash against Scholastic for "dumbing down" the books was a factor,
too.

However...

Since the first three books were very different dialect-wise, I bought
two versions of each: one US version, and once I determined that I was
totally hooked, one UK version.  I then proceeded to buy the US and UK
versions of GoF when *it* came out - and was more than a tad
disappointed that it wasn't more different (though I'd had an inkling
that it would be so while I'd read the US version).  And now I have a
"collection".  So even if the two versions are exactly the same, I'm
going to buy both.  It's not a matter of the language differences
anymore (although I still like that aspect, as a linguist).  It's a
matter of me being a Harry Potter "freak". ;)

JenP, book collector.




From nithya_rachel at hotmail.com  Thu Jan 16 21:59:47 2003
From: nithya_rachel at hotmail.com (nithya_rachel <nithya_rachel@hotmail.com>)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 21:59:47 -0000
Subject: Various Couplethinking Responses
In-Reply-To: <b073a0+fd8p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b07a0j+jl00@eGroups.com>

Acire wrote:

> My mother constantly tells me that if I am not more romantic 
> towards my boyfriend, I will end up alone and bitter...

>Elkins: <winces>
>Youch. You too, eh? I had a college lecturer once who told me that 
>I was an angry young woman and "like all angry young women, you will 
>die bitter and alone." Now, isn't that just lovely.

>My parents, on the other hand, insisted that I would end up badly not
>because I was angry, but rather, because I was selfish, 
manipulative, 
>inconsiderate and ungrateful, as well as probably incapable of real 
>love; because I take, take, take, while never giving back a thing in 
>return; and because while I might be able to fool some of the people 
>some of the time with my appealing (yet fundamentally shallow) 
>charismatics, in the end everyone would see through my little scam 
>and perceive me for the errant fraud that I really am.

<looks around household, checks watch. Raises eyebrow. Shrugs.>

>Well, would you look at that! It really *is* taking them a long time
>to catch on to my little game, isn't it?
>I'm taking a light tone here, but those kinds of parental scripts 
>really can leave marks, I know. Don't let them scare you too much, 
>okay?


Thanks Elkins....I get that all the time too, but from a completely 
different angle. It appears that I'm going to be bitter and
single since I'm too idealistic, can't really love someone I
don't look up to, am too independent minded and self-sufficient
to have people really connect with me deep down ? and though I
have a plenty of good friends, am destined to be single since I
can't
go beyond friendship in any relationship. Sigh. Don't you dare
tell
me my friends don't connect with me! 

As for platonic relationships, I have plenty of all varities...maybe 
thats why I'm a non-shipper within the trio - the freedom to be 'just 
friends' seems the rarest of them all.

Nithya.




From heidit at netbox.com  Thu Jan 16 18:54:13 2003
From: heidit at netbox.com (Heidi Tandy)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 14:54:13 -0400
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Amazon in Canada - Versions?
Message-ID: <mailman.25.1576049042.5361.hpfgu-otchatter@archive.hpfgu.org>

To date, raincoast - the canadian publisher - has released the uk version.  
-----Original Message-----
From: "Steve <bboy_mn at yahoo.com>" <bboy_mn at yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 20:59:13 
To:HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Amazon in Canada - Versions?

Real-To:  "Steve <bboy_mn at yahoo.com>" <bboy_mn at yahoo.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Sheryll Townsend <s_ings at y...>
wrote:
> Amazon.ca is not the only option for ordering Canadian
> versions. You could always use Chapters/Indigo
> instead. 

bboy_mn:

Sorry to interupt with this distraction, but could someone tell me if
the Canadian version is the same as the American translation, or (I
hope) is it identical to the British translation. Or, is it indeed a
translation into a third form of English? [British="All right Harry?";
Canadian="Hey, you hoser." ;)]

If it's the British version and the Canadian version are the same,
that might be a way for us in the USA to get British version and save
some shipping cost.

Does anybody know??

bboy_mn


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From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 16 22:53:49 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve <bboy_mn@yahoo.com>)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 22:53:49 -0000
Subject: The Books in "Magic Edition"? What's up with that?
Message-ID: <b07d5t+nbni@eGroups.com>

Nothing critical, but I was on the Canadian bookseller
Chapters.Indigo's website looking at the Potter books (OotP US$17.34;
CA$27.00) and noticed that they have a "Magic Edition" of some of the
books.

So, what is the "Magic Edition"? How is it different from the standard
edition?

I also like the covers on the Canadian/British editions better than I
like the US edition. A lost less cartoon like. Although, the US cover
are nice; I like the more serious CA version. 

So, anybody know about the Magic Editions?

Thanks

bboy_mn




From pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no  Thu Jan 16 22:55:20 2003
From: pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no (pengolodh_sc <pengolodh_sc@yahoo.no>)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 22:55:20 -0000
Subject: Hear and here (was Re: Flowerbeds?)
In-Reply-To: <b078me+6tu5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b07d8o+vii3@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "tesseract197 
<jayemelle at e...>" <jayemelle at e...> wrote:

> Me:
> Hear, hear!  (Or is it, "Here, here"?  I've never figured that one 
> out.)  

It is "Hear! Hear!"  It is an encouragement to listen to the opinion
(s) of some other person, and a statement of agreement with that 
person, and as such does not really amke sense if it was "Here! 
Here!"  If it was "Here! Here!", that would imply that you are asking 
someone (who?) to come (from where?) to your present location 
(where?) - which does not fit the use of the expression at all.  
Another thing is that it in other languages where this phrase is 
used, such as Norwegian, it is clearly the word for "hear" that is 
used, not "here".

Best regards
Christian Stub?




From jayemelle at earthlink.net  Thu Jan 16 22:57:49 2003
From: jayemelle at earthlink.net (tesseract197 <jayemelle@earthlink.net>)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 22:57:49 -0000
Subject: Hear and here (was Re: Flowerbeds?)
In-Reply-To: <b07d8o+vii3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b07ddd+lobj@eGroups.com>

Thanks :o)  You'd never know I proofread for a living, would you?  
Anyway, I appreciate the clarification!

Tess

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "pengolodh_sc 
<pengolodh_sc at y...>" <pengolodh_sc at y...> wrote:
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "tesseract197 
> <jayemelle at e...>" <jayemelle at e...> wrote:
> 
> > Me:
> > Hear, hear!  (Or is it, "Here, here"?  I've never figured that 
one 
> > out.)  
> 
> It is "Hear! Hear!"  It is an encouragement to listen to the opinion
> (s) of some other person, and a statement of agreement with that 
> person, and as such does not really amke sense if it was "Here! 
> Here!"  If it was "Here! Here!", that would imply that you are 
asking 
> someone (who?) to come (from where?) to your present location 
> (where?) - which does not fit the use of the expression at all.  
> Another thing is that it in other languages where this phrase is 
> used, such as Norwegian, it is clearly the word for "hear" that is 
> used, not "here".
> 
> Best regards
> Christian Stub?




From bloubet at incanmonkey.com  Thu Jan 16 23:55:34 2003
From: bloubet at incanmonkey.com (Beth Loubet)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 17:55:34 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Redeemable Draco
References: <1042750954.7737.58717.m15@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <00af01c2bdba$e041f1a0$7001a8c0@bloubetdellpc>

(Copying to main list; gathering driftwood for my acronym seaside shack on
TBAY <grin>)

David (on redeemable Draco):

> I just can't remember it, and have to confess I don't know which
> way round she means. Who thinks Draco is an abominable little tick
> who deserves the Dementor's Kiss but just knows that softie JKR is
> going to have him throw himself in front of the AK intended for
> Harry? Who feels Draco is really a complex misunderstood and
> tortured soul who will never be allowed to do more than lose
> Quidditch matches and fail to get the last taunt?

Elkins: Any takers?

bel:
Yep. Step right up and get your programme, can't tell the players without a
programme! See Draco taunt Harry because of his own feelings of inadequacy!
See Draco belittled and humiliated by his insensitive oaf of a father! See
Draco laughed at by Ron and Harry in public! See Draco's (badly handled)
offer of friendship to Harry thrown back in his face! See Draco resent
Harry's ability to make friends, while he has to buy them!

And see Draco sacrificed on the altar of Too Many Bad Choices to Redeem!

Don't get me wrong. Draco is an insufferable git. He's a bully, a whiner, a
brown-noser. He's also psychologically (if not physically) abused, raised on
the "wealth is power, and power is everything" paradigm, and primed to
believe from birth that the ends justify the means. Hogwarts is his first
opportunity to see that there might be other avenues in life open to him.
Yet still, he's constantly (if indirectly) watched by his father -- through
Snape, through his father's position as a school governor, even through
Draco's only "friends" -- Crabbe and Goyle, the sons of Lucius' friends and
co-DEs.

Draco hasn't had much of a chance to decide who HE is, who HE really wants
to be, outside of his father's influence. I'd love to see him get that
chance. He's not, after all, a "big bad". If the book were strictly about a
school, Draco would be the big bad. But it's not. The Big Bads in the
outside world are just too big for Draco to have any real importance in
Harry's life. He's not even successful as a bad guy. He's a royal pain in
the patoot, but no more -- which gives him the chance to drop on either side
of the fence.

I want to see Draco stand up and make a decision for himself as to who he
wants to be. Heck, I'd be happy to see him do that no matter WHICH side of
the fence he ends up on. But I really think he deserves redemption. He
deserves to be able to choose the "right" path.

And I don't think that's going to happen. I think that Draco will end up
being one of the senseless sacrifices of the war that make us (and Harry)
realize how pointless it all is and how urgent it is to make it stop.
Draco's tragedy will be that he DOESN'T ever get to make that most important
choice on his own and become an adult. He may realize that fact at the end
and regret it, but that isn't redemption. It's just regret.

DRACO'S TRAGEDY
Draco Refuses Adult Choices; Obviously Sacrifices True Redemption; Abused,
Guided by Evil Dad to Yield

Fire away! <grin>

bel





From mdemeran at hotmail.com  Fri Jan 17 00:00:27 2003
From: mdemeran at hotmail.com (Meg Demeranville)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 18:00:27 -0600
Subject: The Book: Maybe it's a good thing
Message-ID: <001b01c2bdbb$70fe6750$6701a8c0@MFD>

In message 13460 (
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/13460>
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/13460) Heidi
wrote:
I'm taking this from the main list, as I thing I'm taking it quite off
topic. 
What does the not-quite-six-month wait mean for you?
For me it's:
1 healthy baby born (God willing)
Approx 25+ sponsors of Nimbus - 2003 signed
Likely 10,000 fics and chapters submitted to FictionAlley - and about
6000 uploaded
1 chapter - the last - of surfeit of curses, my fanfic, which I really
do need to finish
Hundreds, if not thousands of newbies to this wonderful fandom
One and a half plane trips - I'm writing this somewhere over colorado
And just over 250 pieces of sushi. 
Sounds like a solid few months. 

 
Meg replies:
Good luck Heidi (and happy belated birthday!)
 
What does six months mean for me?
1 hepatitis shot
4 Student Assembly meetings
4 Presentations to my class
6 Trips to the movies with the kid that started my Harry Potter
obsession
7 Days of vacation from class (5 days of Spring Break, MLK Day, Mardi
Gras)
15 Student Government Association meetings (yes, it's a different
organization than Student Assembly)
18 Nights spent working in the morgue
16 tests in four subjects (Neuroanatomy (3), Biochemistry (5),
Physiology (5), Introduction to Clinical Medicine (3))
229 Classes or Labs in the four mentioned classes
450+ Hours spent in class or lab
480+ Diet Cokes (1 case consumed per week of class)
Untold reams of loose leaf and printer paper, index cards, post-it notes
of all sizes, and tape flags for transcripts and notes
 
Man I need spare time. Thank God OoP will be coming out during my break
so I can actually read it without feeling like I am slighting my
studies.
 
-- Meg (who needs to get back to studying and stop counting classes)
 
Read the untold story of life as a first year medical student at:
As The Scalpel Turns - http://www.livejournal.com/users/megd/


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From lupinesque at yahoo.com  Fri Jan 17 00:26:39 2003
From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z <lupinesque@yahoo.com>)
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 00:26:39 -0000
Subject: OOP question
In-Reply-To: <b06ues+u9cf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b07ijv+nubd@eGroups.com>

Anne Mehr wrote:

Bloomsbury and Scholastic issued a joint press release 
> (check www.bloomsburymagazine.com or www.scholastic.com).  June 21 
*is 
> * the US release date.  

But is the language going to be identical, or de-Briticized?  Does 
anyone know?

Amy Z
happy to speak Murkin but wanting the pure original when it comes to 
HP




From julia at thequiltbug.com  Fri Jan 17 01:06:26 2003
From: julia at thequiltbug.com (Calliope)
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 17:06:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: The Book: Maybe it's a good thing
Message-ID: <20030116170626.6894.h015.c011.wm@mail.thequiltbug.com.criticalpath.net>

Heidi wrote:

>>What does the not-quite-six-month wait mean for you?

Julia writes:

125 lesson plans
17 handbell choir rehearsals
3 concerts
18 boring teachers' meetings
2 inservices
1 teaching evaluation
1 music teachers' convention
1 spring break (if tonight's snowfall is light and we don't miss school tomorrow)
5 more re-reads of canon (at least)
3 fics-in-progress completed (hopefully)
1 last day of school for summer 


Julia (who so glad OotP is coming out while she's on summer vacation so she
won't have to call in sick because she stayed up reading all night and into the
day - her principal is big on literacy, but not that big)



From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Fri Jan 17 01:11:24 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve <bboy_mn@yahoo.com>)
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 01:11:24 -0000
Subject: Redeemable Draco
In-Reply-To: <00af01c2bdba$e041f1a0$7001a8c0@bloubetdellpc>
Message-ID: <b07l7s+2kq8@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Beth Loubet" <bloubet at i...>
wrote:
> 
> bel:
> ...edited...
> Don't get me wrong. Draco is an insufferable git. He's a bully, 
> a whiner, a brown-noser. He's also ... abused, raised on
> the "wealth is power, and power is everything" paradigm, ...
> 
> Draco hasn't had much of a chance to decide who HE is, ...
> 
> I want to see Draco stand up and make a decision for himself ...
>
> I think that Draco will end up being one of the senseless 
> sacrifices of the war ...
>
> Draco's tragedy will be that he DOESN'T ever get to make that most 
> important choice on his own and become an adult. ...edited...
> 
> DRACO'S TRAGEDY
> Draco Refuses Adult Choices; Obviously Sacrifices True Redemption;
> Abused, Guided by Evil Dad to Yield
> 
> Fire away! <grin>
> 
> bel

bboy_mn:

Well... well... well... I think you can lower your shield Captain Beth
there will be no broadside from this starship. (oops, that's Star
Trek... back on track now).

That was probably the best, most concise and insightful analysis of
Draco I've ever read. 

I don't refute anything you said, but I would like to add a few
thoughts of my own.

First, Draco will always be a jerk. He will always be annoying and
obnoxious. Even if Harry and Ron becomes friends with him; Draco will
be that annoying obnoxious irritating friend that we've all had. 

Draco will always be Draco. That's his personality. I think the
greatest joy in his life is irritating Harry. I think he lays awake at
night think up new ways. And when and if Draco and the Trio become
friends; Draco will still love teasing and annoying the hell out of
Harry. He will still lay awake think up new ways to tease him. But
being an annoying obnoxious jerk doesn't mean he has to be evil.

Next, Draco has lived a life of priviledge. In a sense, in many
senses, he has never had to get his hands dirty. Right now all he does
is talk his father's talk, and walk his father's walk, but I don't
think Draco really has a clue what it means to be a Death Eater. He
doesn't know what it's like to watch someone die. He's never had to
hear the screams. He doesn't really understand what it means to kill
or torture someone.

I can just picture Draco meeting Voldemort. Draco walks up to
Voldemort smiling, extends his hand, and say, "Hello. Having a good
day then?" At this point, Draco doesn't comprehend the bowing,
subservience, God-like reverence, and all around kissing of
Voldemort's bu... robe... robe that is involved. I think Draco sees
his father as a powerful man standing tall at Voldemort's side. The
first time, Draco sees his father crawling on the ground, groveling,
and kissing the hem of Voldemort's robe it is going to be shock to
him. That's not the fathere he thought he knew. 

A few Cruciatus curses later, for his irreverant and disrespectful
greeting of Voldemort, and Draco will quickly discover that being a
Death Eater isn't party, party, party. 

That will be his rude awakening. Then he will have to decide if he is
himself. A unigue powerful and proud entity, or if he is a groveling
servant of Voldemorts. I think in his own mind Draco sees himself as
Lord of his domain. He is Lord, he is not Lorded over (other than by
his father), and he assumes that that is how his father sees himself;
proud and powerful. 

Then as the war goes on, and it becomes clear what war and being a
Death Eater means, Draco will have a crisis of conscience. He will
have to decide if being the petty servant to the master of a world in
ruins is better than being a self-made man in an economically stable
and prosperous world; a world without the chaos and destruction of war.

In a way, I hope Draco will redeem himself in a sense. I say in sense
because I know if he chooses the good side it will be for somewhat
selfish and possibly cowardly reasons, but none the less, he will have
chosen the better path even if he did so for the wrong reasons.

So, in summary-
-Draco will always be Draco regardless of which side he is on.

-Draco doesn't have a clue what it really means to be a Death Eater.

-I have absolute certainty that Draco will have a crisis of conscience
as I have described here. Although, I'm not sure which way he will go.

-Now that there is war, Draco will not be able to hide behind his
priviledged life any more. Like it or not, Draco will have to get his
hands dirty. He will have to soil them with hard reality. Let's just
hope it's not blood on his hands.

I agree with most of your points. And, again, I think you gave an
excellent analysis of Draco and his situation.

Just a few thoughts.

bboy_mn





From Joanne0012 at aol.com  Fri Jan 17 01:53:07 2003
From: Joanne0012 at aol.com (joanne0012 <Joanne0012@aol.com>)
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 01:53:07 -0000
Subject: The Book: Maybe it's a good thing
In-Reply-To: <20030116170626.6894.h015.c011.wm@mail.thequiltbug.com.criticalpath.net>
Message-ID: <b07nm3+8isa@eGroups.com>

> Julia (who so glad OotP is coming out while she's on summer vacation so 
she
> won't have to call in sick because she stayed up reading all night and into 
the
> day - her principal is big on literacy, but not that big)

Thank goodness June 21 is a Saturday, or the productivity of the entire 
muggle world might be undermined by the appearance of OOP!




From selah_1977 at yahoo.com  Fri Jan 17 03:46:44 2003
From: selah_1977 at yahoo.com (Ebony <selah_1977@yahoo.com>)
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 03:46:44 -0000
Subject: The Book: Maybe it's a good thing
In-Reply-To: <b07nm3+8isa@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b07ub4+d2qg@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "joanne0012 
<Joanne0012 at a...>" <Joanne0012 at a...> wrote:
> Thank goodness June 21 is a Saturday, or the productivity of the 
entire muggle world might be undermined by the appearance of OOP!

Thank goodness June 21 is the first official weekend of my summer 
vacation from work!  (It also happens to be my ex's birthday--the 
Gemini/Cancer cusp.  Eep.)

Anyway, jumping on the bandwagon... for between now and OotP, this is 
what I'm looking forward to:

1 Baby Niece or Nephew
1 Trip to Italy
1 March on Washington
1 M.A. in English Literature
1 Thesis
1 Translation into Spanish
1 New Website to Open
1 Adjunct Position Earned in Children's/YA Lit
***note:  all of the items above will be firsts!***
1 Poetry Slam Organized
1 Student Literary Magazine Published
1-2 Newsmagazines Sponsored
2 Presentations (one for my seminar, one for my first academic 
conference this March) Given
2 Seminar/Conference Papers Written 
5 Chapters Written (to finish out my fanfiction!)
7 Literature Units Taught
10 Church Services Attended (perhaps more?)
10 Hours Spent (Wasted?) on Dates (if that... see earlier post!)
15 Prosems Attended (but plotted fanfic in, mostly)
15-20 Hours of HP4GU Elfing
40 Hours Spent Looking For a New Place (as lease is up 30 April)
50+ Books Read
80+ Hours Spent t00bing With Co-Workers Over Food, Drinks, and Music 
(rather enjoy that more than dates, Elkins--so am living your theory, 
actually)
95 Days of Freshman English Taught
70 Days of Creative Writing Taught
100+ Hours Spent Modding FAP Forums (and blissfully debating with 
those I'm supposed to Mod!)
100+ Hours Doing Absolutely Nothing At Mom's/Grandmother's/Sister's
200+ Hours Spent Doing Programming Committee Pre-Planning for Nimbus
*Thousands* of Hours Spent on Yahoo! Messenger With Fandomers

Also, two things of note:

1)  As a teacher, I absolutely *love* this half of the year.  My job 
suddenly gets easier.  My students know me and I've built a rapport 
with them.  I get a nearly two week semi-breather in mid-January, 
then full weeklong breathers in February and April.  What's more, I 
not only have the Time to Travel, I have the Money to Travel With!  
So I'd rather have the announcement/release furlough here rather 
than, say, April/October or June/December!

2)  Because I stay so busy, I know I'll blink and OotP will be here.

I knew this year was going to be exciting!  

--Ebony





From chrisnlorrie at yahoo.com  Fri Jan 17 05:29:35 2003
From: chrisnlorrie at yahoo.com (alora <chrisnlorrie@yahoo.com>)
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 05:29:35 -0000
Subject: OOP question
In-Reply-To: <b07ijv+nubd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b084bv+s9t7@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Amy Z <lupinesque at y...>" 
<lupinesque at y...> wrote:
> Anne Mehr wrote:
> 
> Bloomsbury and Scholastic issued a joint press release 
> > (check www.bloomsburymagazine.com or www.scholastic.com).  June 
21 
> *is 
> > * the US release date.  
> 
> But is the language going to be identical, or de-Briticized?  Does 
> anyone know?
> 
> Amy Z
> happy to speak Murkin but wanting the pure original when it comes 
to 
> HP

Amy,

I thought about that too, so I just ordered the American one from 
Amazon and two more copies from amazon.co.uk!! *LOL*  I figured I 
would read the British version too, as I have all the other HP books 
from the UK also.  Hehe, I ordered the adult edition AND the 
children's edition from the UK amazon site.  And I know that I am 
not the only one!!

Alora




From dradamsapple at yahoo.com  Fri Jan 17 05:45:52 2003
From: dradamsapple at yahoo.com (dradamsapple <dradamsapple@yahoo.com>)
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 05:45:52 -0000
Subject: Age suitability of canon
In-Reply-To: <32616604.1042728883639.JavaMail.root@webmail.i-55.com>
Message-ID: <b085ag+g8ei@eGroups.com>

Richelle replies;

> It depends on the seven year old.  Whether the issues are suitable 
for seven 
> year olds is not the question.  I teach first grade, most of my 
students are 
> seven.  None of them could come close to reading HP.  So, read it 
aloud, you 
> say?  Tried that.  We didn't make it through a chapter.  They were 
clueless.  


Richelle,  I totally agree.  My neice was almost 3 months shy of 10 
yrs when she started reading The Hobbit, and then moved onto LOTR: I 
had to read both The Hobbit and LOTR in high school, and barely got 
through half of LOTR. 


> 
> My point is, HP is fine for an above average seven year old, one 
with a fourth 
> grade or higher reading level.  For an average seven year old, 
maybe, with it 
> being read aloud.  For a below average seven year old, not a 
chance. Been 
> there, done that, doesn't work.
> 
> Richelle
> 


I also believe the childs' interest stems from the parents' interest 
in reading.  As a child of immigrants, my parents never really read 
many *english* stories to me, mainly because they didn't know of 
them.  They told me stories and fables from their country (Italy), 
but when it came to reading for pleasure, I never really saw much of 
it.  My father would get a subscription to a couple of Italian 
newspapers and magazines and that would be it.  So I never really
developed an interest for reading, and I'll tell you I can probably 
name on one hand the books that I remember enjoying.  (John 
Steinbeck's *The Pearl*, for one stands out).  I did always enjoy 
reading encyclopedia's and science books though. I loved discovering  
things about science.  Maybe that's why I majored in biology???;-)
just my two knuts . . .

Anna . . .


d]




From macloudt at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Jan 17 09:52:42 2003
From: macloudt at yahoo.co.uk (Mary Ann <macloudt@yahoo.co.uk>)
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 09:52:42 -0000
Subject: Birthday Greetings!
Message-ID: <b08jpa+6f6q@eGroups.com>

:::::puts up more balloons and streamers:::::

We have another birthday to celebrate!  Today we wish Rose Woofenden, 
aka Habile gal, a great day.  Greetings can be sent to the List or to 
rosewoof at earthlink.net

Have a great day, Rose, and I hope you have lots of HP goodies!

Mary Ann
(TBA)




From Dar20 at aol.com  Fri Jan 17 13:33:40 2003
From: Dar20 at aol.com (Darlene <Dar20@aol.com>)
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 13:33:40 -0000
Subject: Amazon in Canada - Versions?
In-Reply-To: <b076f1+aoqs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b090nk+p81t@eGroups.com>

> If it's the British version and the Canadian version are the same,
> that might be a way for us in the USA to get British version and 
save
> some shipping cost.

Amazon.uk is much cheaper right now than Chapters.. even with 
shipping.  I didn't look at Amazon.ca, though.

Dar




From Dar20 at aol.com  Fri Jan 17 13:36:37 2003
From: Dar20 at aol.com (Darlene <Dar20@aol.com>)
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 13:36:37 -0000
Subject: Audio books question
Message-ID: <b090t5+op84@eGroups.com>

Hey, everyone...

I was interested in getting the audio books on cd for Christmas until 
I realized how expensive they were!  $100 just for GOF?!?!?!?!

Where did you get yours, and how much did you pay?  I just can't 
justify paying that much money on some cd's.

Thanks,
Dar




From rvotaw at i-55.com  Fri Jan 17 14:43:43 2003
From: rvotaw at i-55.com (rvotaw at i-55.com)
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 08:43:43 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: The Book: Maybe it's a good thing
Message-ID: <20641988.1042814623550.JavaMail.root@webmail.i-55.com>


Ebony wrote:

> Anyway, jumping on the bandwagon... for between now and OotP, this is <BR>
> what I'm looking forward to:<BR>

Hmm, well this has got me thinking.  How shall I pass the time?

1 trip to Florida (okay, rather dull.  The only interesting trip I've got 
    planned this year won't be until September)
1 semester of teaching first grade
1 end of school year party
14 children out of my classroom at last (though at the rate we're going they 
    won't all be going on to second grade)
1 month of summer school, during which I will probably teach Lego Lab, thus
8 (or more) Lego projects assembled.
155 days of reminding myself not to preorder OotP from *every* place known to 
    man (anybody else having the sudden urge to click and order?)
16 tapes of X-Files episodes to watch
3 tapes of Taken to watch
1 totebag to finish cross stitching or
1/2 of Hermione to finish on the totebag AND 
1 Ron Weasley to stitch
4 Harry Potter books to reread until June 21st.
62 CD's (Bible on CD) to listen to
2 more LotR books to listen to on CD

I think that's about it.  How dull.  I'll never make it!

Richelle





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From rvotaw at i-55.com  Fri Jan 17 16:18:26 2003
From: rvotaw at i-55.com (rvotaw at i-55.com)
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 10:18:26 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Audio books question
Message-ID: <27819882.1042820306453.JavaMail.root@webmail.i-55.com>

Dar writes:

> <BR>
> I was interested in getting the audio books on cd for Christmas until <BR>
> I realized how expensive they were! $100 just for GOF?!?!?!?!<BR>
> <BR>
> Where did you get yours, and how much did you pay? I just can't <BR>
> justify paying that much money on some cd's.<BR>
> <BR>

I don't know which version you're looking for (UK or US), but the US editions 
are cheaper on Amazon.com  GoF is just under $50, PoA around $40 and CoS and 
SS/PS about $35 each.  Still a lot, but they are discounted some at least.

I don't have them yet for just that reason.  I can't let go of that much money 
at once on CD's.  I guess if I had any sense I'd just by them one at a time 
every couple of months.  When I bought The Hobbit and LotR on CD all four books 
together were $50.  Of course, the size of GoF throws off the comparison there!

Richelle

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From walkthewalk999 at aol.com  Fri Jan 17 17:34:43 2003
From: walkthewalk999 at aol.com (walkthewalk999 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 12:34:43 EST
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Gay genetics, slash and the right to hate
Message-ID: <187.14967b8f.2b5998b3@aol.com>

In a message dated 1/14/2003 7:26:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
psychic_serpent at yahoo.com writes:

> meira_q <mb2910 at h...> said:
> >>If being gay or straight or bi isn't about personal taste and 
> >>preference, then what *is*? Be it genetics, personal choice 
> >>or whatever you'd like to think  makes someone gay or 
> >>straight or bi, it *is* what you prefer. It's who you are  
> >>personally attracted to.

OK - so when did you CHOOSE to by straight?  Do you remember that decision?  
How old were you when you decided to be attracted to member of the opposite 
sex?

Or is your attraction to members of the opposite sex just "natural" for you?  
If something is "natural" is it really a "choice"?

My sister never had a choice...  it is just natural for her to be attracted 
to members of the same sex.

I dont mean to come down hard on anyone, but it really upsets me that people 
in society today just dont get that being gay is like being oriented to left 
handedness. 

 It is simply a minority characteristic.

Lurking Linda





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From slomudskipper at hotmail.com  Fri Jan 17 13:52:39 2003
From: slomudskipper at hotmail.com (slomudskipper <slomudskipper@hotmail.com>)
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 13:52:39 -0000
Subject: Recommendations on -Guides to HP- books?
Message-ID: <b091r7+e332@eGroups.com>

There are at least three of these type of books that I noticed seemed 
to be selling pretty well (below); I was hoping for the opinion of 
someone who is already pretty well obsessed with the JKR's wizard 
world...

"Wizarding World Press' Ultimate Unofficial Guide to the Mysteries of 
Harry Potter" Mithrandrir & Walters (does this have more speculations 
than what is discussed on HP for grownups? did any of the spoilers 
about book 5 and beyond make you wish you hadn't read?)

"The Sorcerer's Companion" Kronzeks
"The Hidden Key to Harry Potter" Granger
"The Magical Worlds of Harry Potter" Colbert

These are all books that I saw on a bestseller list or were 
recommended by amazon buyers.  Any second opinions?
I got an unauthorized biography for J.K.Rowling one year for 
christmas and it really was disappointing (Shapiro's wizard behind 
the magic).  

Mudskipper






From tahewitt at yahoo.com  Fri Jan 17 18:40:03 2003
From: tahewitt at yahoo.com (Tyler Hewitt)
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 10:40:03 -0800 (PST)
Subject: the (not quite) 6 months wait
In-Reply-To: <1042802092.456.46332.m12@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20030117184003.36953.qmail@web14202.mail.yahoo.com>


This is a fun thread. Lets us get to know each other,
just a bit,anyways.

What does the not-quite-six-month wait mean for you?
For me it's:

360 assignments graded
45 final exams graded
30 papers graded
45 individual projects graded
facilitate at least 12 group critiques 
teach classes 4 days/week for the next 17 weeks
at lest 4 department meetings
attend at least 10 meetings of student art club (I am
faculty sponsor of the group)
collapse in exhaustion at the end of the semester
at least 1 (probably more) weekends in Michigan to
visit family
1-2 weekend visits from out-of-state friends here in
Chicago
lots of sushi consumed
ditto for good chinese food
finding time to get into the studio and make some new
work
working in the garden as soon as its warm enough
re-read all 4 HP books as soon as the semester ends
make travel plans for summer (I may be in Britain for
the release of OoP on 6/21)
painting my living room (not looking forward to that)
re-tiling the bathroom

and lots more I can't think of right now, which is
good, because just reading that list makes me tired!

Tyler



__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com



From rvotaw at i-55.com  Fri Jan 17 19:02:44 2003
From: rvotaw at i-55.com (rvotaw at i-55.com)
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 13:02:44 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Recommendations on -Guides to HP- books?
Message-ID: <22173020.1042830164445.JavaMail.root@webmail.i-55.com>

Mudskipper wrote:

> There are at least three of these type of books that I noticed seemed <BR>
> to be selling pretty well (below); I was hoping for the opinion of <BR>
> someone who is already pretty well obsessed with the JKR's wizard <BR>
> world...<BR>


> "The Sorcerer's Companion" Kronzeks<BR>

This one is the only one I have.  I haven't read the entire thing yet, but what 
I have read is well written.  It's well researched into the "real" stories of 
werewolves, unicorns, etc.  It's not really a guide, it's more a "what's behind 
the magical creatures, legends, etc." that are used in HP.  

I'd love to here input on the other books.  I *need* something to tide me over 
until OotP is out!  Of course, I'll probably need to fill up a good 2 or 3 
years after that waiting for book 6.

Richelle


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From bray.262 at osu.edu  Fri Jan 17 14:27:40 2003
From: bray.262 at osu.edu (Rachel Bray)
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 14:27:40 +0000 (EST5EDT)
Subject: is it me or....
Message-ID: <2C5F537E4C@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>

does the Lego Quidditch thingamajig look more like curling 
than Quidditch?

And what's up with the wheelbarrow thingy?

....did I put this thing together correctly?

*goes back to stare in complete confusion at her little 
LegoHarry and LegoDraco curling across her desk*

Rachel Bray
The Ohio State University
Fees & Deposits

The light at the end of the tunnel may be an 
angry, flying Ford Anglia.



From craigf4656 at hotmail.com  Fri Jan 17 20:08:54 2003
From: craigf4656 at hotmail.com (craigf4656 <craigf4656@hotmail.com>)
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 20:08:54 -0000
Subject: Amazon/BN Pre Order Question
Message-ID: <b09nsm+lno4@eGroups.com>

Hi all - I lurk on the main list and just joined this one looking for
an answer to my question, but haven't found one in the archives:

I'm trying to decide between pre-ordering OotP or braving the lines at
Barnes and Noble on the 21st.  My problem is I'm trying to find a
guarantee that the book will actually be delivered on that Saturday,
and I won't have to wait until Monday to get it.  Neither BN or Amazon
makes any mention of this, and in fact Amazon lists all their shipping
methods as "no weekend delivery". 

Does anyone know any different, or have any experience with GoF and
internet ordering?

Thanks,

Craig




From ksnidget at aol.com  Fri Jan 17 20:22:23 2003
From: ksnidget at aol.com (ksnidget <ksnidget@aol.com>)
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 20:22:23 -0000
Subject: is it me or....
Message-ID: <b09olv+jvq1@eGroups.com>


Rachel Bray puzzeled over
 
>does the Lego Quidditch thingamajig look more like curling 
>than Quidditch?
>And what's up with the wheelbarrow thingy?
.>...did I put this thing together correctly?
>*goes back to stare in complete confusion at her little 
>LegoHarry and LegoDraco curling across her desk*

Having lots of Canadian relatives....I kinda like the
idea of curling!

I looked at the pictures on the websites that sell
this set and are you talking about the large multicolored
thing?

That I think is supposed to be the spectator stand thing.

Or the little brown and white teeter-totter thing?

Which if I read the website right is a little catapult for
you to try to toss the Quaffle through the hoops.

Hope this helps.
Ksnidget <who is staring in complete confusion at her
little nonLego FTIR spectrum which probably are
curling across my desk>





From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Fri Jan 17 20:36:24 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve <bboy_mn@yahoo.com>)
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 20:36:24 -0000
Subject: Amazon in Canada - Versions?
In-Reply-To: <b090nk+p81t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b09pg8+n8o9@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Darlene <Dar20 at a...>"
<Dar20 at a...> wrote:
> > If it's the British version and the Canadian version are the same,
> > that might be a way for us in the USA to get British version and 
> save
> > some shipping cost.
> 
> Amazon.uk is much cheaper right now than Chapters.. even with 
> shipping.  I didn't look at Amazon.ca, though.
> 
> Dar


bboy_mn:

After reading your post, I check UK and CA. The difference was about
US$.12 (UK 12cents less) when shipping was factored in (UK book was
about US$13.75); unless I calculated wrong. 

Although, there is something to be said for ordering your books
directly from the UK; sort of like bragging rights. "I have the real
thing, order directly from the home land of Harry Potter." Said in a
snooty voice while looking down your nose. 

For anyone interested in comparing, here are the exchange rates:

US$1.00 = BP?0.618 - CA$1.535
CA$1.00 = BP?0.403 = US$0.651
BP?1.00 = US$1.618 = CA$2.484

I'm still not sure what I'm going to do, but I think I will either
order from CA or UK. I also notice that the UK/CA version 4 book
hardcover set was only (approx) US$44; that seemed like a pretty good
deal. Too bad I don't have any money right now.

bboy_mn





From bray.262 at osu.edu  Fri Jan 17 15:45:29 2003
From: bray.262 at osu.edu (Rachel Bray)
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 15:45:29 +0000 (EST5EDT)
Subject: Um...Ok, my bad....(was Is it me or....)
Message-ID: <2DABAF09AB@lincoln.treasurer.ohio-state.edu>

This is the thing I got:

http://shop.lego.com/product.asp?prod_id=4711

So it was "flying lesson", not Quidditch.  *exasperated 
sigh*  I so need to learn how to READ THE BOX.

When you have the "Remembrall" on the ground and they've 
got their brooms down....it looks like they're curling.

Geez....well, it explains why it's SO not a snitch, quaffle 
or bludger.

*rolling my eyes*

But....it is a HUGE Remembrall.

Rachel Bray
The Ohio State University
Fees & Deposits

The light at the end of the tunnel may be an 
angry, flying Ford Anglia.



From selah_1977 at yahoo.com  Fri Jan 17 21:47:12 2003
From: selah_1977 at yahoo.com (Ebony <selah_1977@yahoo.com>)
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 21:47:12 -0000
Subject: Recommendations on -Guides to HP- books?
In-Reply-To: <b091r7+e332@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b09tl0+c7lm@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "slomudskipper 
<slomudskipper at h...>" <slomudskipper at h...> wrote:

May I add one to your list?

Try "The Science of Harry Potter" by Roger Highfield, science editor 
for the Daily Telegraph and the author of a very popular book on the 
science of Christmas.

Both Roger Highfield and another author you mention, John Granger, 
will be featured guests at our first-ever fandom symposium, Nimbus-
2003:

http://www.hp2003.org

--Ebony






From rvotaw at i-55.com  Fri Jan 17 22:17:00 2003
From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw)
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 16:17:00 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Amazon/BN Pre Order Question
References: <b09nsm+lno4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <005301c2be76$28b8c010$b79fcdd1@RVotaw>


> I'm trying to decide between pre-ordering OotP or braving the lines at
> Barnes and Noble on the 21st.  My problem is I'm trying to find a
> guarantee that the book will actually be delivered on that Saturday,
> and I won't have to wait until Monday to get it.  Neither BN or Amazon
> makes any mention of this, and in fact Amazon lists all their shipping
> methods as "no weekend delivery". 

I don't have experience preordering books, but I know for a fact Amazon always ships UPS.  And UPS doesn't deliver on Saturday, unless they pay extra for the shipping.  I order frequently from Amazon, and they've never shipped anything but UPS.  You may be able to pay extra and have things shipped priority mail, which would come on Saturday, but that hardly seems fair. 

I've preordered the UK edition and will stand in line at Barnes & Noble (or my local Books a Million if by some miracle they decide to stay open) as well.  I must have that book the very instant it's possible.  If by some twist of fate my preordered edition comes early, fine by me.  Even if it does I'll be in line at B&N anyway.  I need the experience. :)  Wonder if I should wear my Hermione costume .  .  .?

Richelle


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Fri Jan 17 22:00:50 2003
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd <jkusalavagemd@yahoo.com>)
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 22:00:50 -0000
Subject: Britpickers, help! (concerning cabbage, sprouts and the occult)
Message-ID: <b09uei+ttlv@eGroups.com>

I was rereading "Good Omens" by Terry Pratchett and Neil Gaiman and 
came across a passage as follows: "Nothing is more reassuring, 
nothing is more true to the comfortable spirit of English occultism, 
than the smell of Brussells sprouts cooking in the next room."  I 
immediately thought of Arabella Figg and the smell of cabbage (which 
is a veggie very close to sprouts).  Is there an accepted tradition 
of the smell of cabbage-- or Brussels Sprouts-- associated with the 
occult in England?  If so, why?  "Good Omens" is a satire, so I 
assume it is one of those tired old cliches that everybody knows.  
Help, please!

Haggridd





From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk  Fri Jan 17 22:37:01 2003
From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte)
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 22:37:01 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Recommendations on -Guides to HP- books?
References: <22173020.1042830164445.JavaMail.root@webmail.i-55.com>
Message-ID: <3E28858D.000001.56939@monica>



-------Original Message-------

From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
Date: 17 January 2003 19:07:54
To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
Subject: re: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Recommendations on -Guides to HP- books?

Mudskipper wrote:

> There are at least three of these type of books that I noticed seemed <BR>
> to be selling pretty well (below); I was hoping for the opinion of <BR>
> someone who is already pretty well obsessed with the JKR's wizard <BR>
> world...<BR>


> "The Sorcerer's Companion" Kronzeks<BR>

This one is the only one I have. I haven't read the entire thing yet, but
what 
I have read is well written. It's well researched into the "real" stories of

werewolves, unicorns, etc. It's not really a guide, it's more a "what's
behind 
the magical creatures, legends, etc." that are used in HP. 

I'd love to here input on the other books. I *need* something to tide me
over 
until OotP is out! Of course, I'll probably need to fill up a good 2 or 3 
years after that waiting for book 6.

Richelle

I've got The Magical Worlds of Harry Potter (I think that's the correct
title, it was the last one on your original list anyway) It sounds like it's
almost identical to the one Richelle is talking about, although possibly
less in depth. It seeme to me to be aimed at kids or teenagers at any rate,
I wasn't greatl;y impressed by it.

K



From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 18 00:28:27 2003
From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent <psychic_serpent@yahoo.com>)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 00:28:27 -0000
Subject: Recommendations on -Guides to HP- books?
In-Reply-To: <b09tl0+c7lm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b0a73b+hvnv@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Ebony <selah_1977 at y...>" 
<selah_1977 at y...> wrote:
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "slomudskipper 
> <slomudskipper at h...>" <slomudskipper at h...> wrote:
> 
> May I add one to your list?
> 
> Try "The Science of Harry Potter" by Roger Highfield, science 
editor 
> for the Daily Telegraph and the author of a very popular book on 
the 
> science of Christmas.
> 
> Both Roger Highfield and another author you mention, John Granger, 
> will be featured guests at our first-ever fandom symposium, Nimbus-
> 2003:
> 
> http://www.hp2003.org
> 
> --Ebony

I can second Ebony's recommendation of Highfield's book.  However, I 
found that I had to read "The Sorcerer's Companion" with my teeth 
gritted due to some errors (misspelling Nicolas Flamel's name and 
then trying to do Arithmancy with the letters therein, among other 
things).  And I recommend staying away from unauthorized biographies 
of JKR; one I skimmed through in a bookstore was so riddled with 
errors I felt like reaming out the management for deigning to sell 
the dreck.  It was truly only worthy of being pulped as soon as 
possible, and yet someone is making money from it.  Save yourself 
the trouble of reading "The Sorcerer's Companion" and research the 
same material on the web.  Then read Highfield's book and wait for 
JKR herself to write her autobiography.  

In the meantime, if you like the Lemony Snicket books, I can highly 
recommend the "Unauthorized Autobiography of Lemony Snicket" which 
even comes with a book jacket you can turn inside out to disguise 
what book you're reading.  Great fun; I dare anyone to go half a 
page without snickering...

--Barb


http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent
http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb

Chapter 15 of The Triangle Prophecy is up!
Go to:  http://www.schnoogle.com/cgi-bin/links/jump.cgi?ID=6858





From the.gremlin at verizon.net  Sat Jan 18 00:40:52 2003
From: the.gremlin at verizon.net (the.gremlin at verizon.net)
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 18:40:52 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] the (not quite) 6 months wait
Message-ID: <20030118004052.XDBK7656.out002.verizon.net@[192.168.129.133]>

Tyler:
"This is a fun thread. Lets us get to know each other, just a bit,anyways.

What does the not-quite-six-month wait mean for you?"

~about 6-10 short papers, as I'm taking 2 English classes
~a fervent wish that I had registered for classes earlier and not wound up with that 4 hour lecture on Friday
~a far more decent grasp of Spanish
~at least 1 published short story
~mucho progress in my screenplay
~a work promotion
~a raise
~a paid-off credit card bill
~conquering the books that are on the side of my bed
~and 2 full Sim neighborhoods (hums "The Twelve Days of Christmas...ooh, good idea for filk but I think it's been done before).

-Acire, who is paying for not checking her e-mail in 2 days, and is going to pick up her new, not-totaled car.

                   


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From rosewoof at earthlink.net  Fri Jan 17 16:37:28 2003
From: rosewoof at earthlink.net (Rose Woofenden)
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 08:37:28 -0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Birthday Greetings!
In-Reply-To: <b08jpa+6f6q@eGroups.com>
References: <b08jpa+6f6q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <a05200f00ba4de1876e37@[10.0.1.3]>


Thank you for the Birthday greetings! I rarely post here, but am an 
avid reader of the lists. I didn't end up with any HP goodies yet, 
but the day is young. :)


>::::puts up more balloons and streamers:::::
>
>We have another birthday to celebrate!  Today we wish Rose Woofenden,
>aka Habile gal, a great day.  Greetings can be sent to the List or to
>rosewoof at earthlink.net
>
>Have a great day, Rose, and I hope you have lots of HP goodies!
>
>Mary Ann
>(TBA)
>
>
>________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________
>
>Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the group's Admin Files!
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/
>
>Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary 
>material from posts to which you're replying!
>
>Is your message...
>An announcement of merchandise, news etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements.
>Movie-related? Send it to HPFGU-Movie.
>Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups.
>None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter.
>Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- 
>MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com
>
>Unsubscribing? Email HPFGU-OTChatter-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
>____________________________________________________________
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


-- 
-Rose

		Contentment is not the fulfillment of what you want,
	           	it is the realization of how much you already have.



From Joanne0012 at aol.com  Sat Jan 18 01:51:51 2003
From: Joanne0012 at aol.com (joanne0012 <Joanne0012@aol.com>)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 01:51:51 -0000
Subject: Comparisons of UK and US editions
Message-ID: <b0abvn+bic6@eGroups.com>

Somewhere online I've seen an obsessive-compulsive listing, page-by-page, 
that identified everyplace where the language of the UK and US editions of 
each HP book use slightly different wording.    I thought I had a link to it in 
HPGalleries, but it seems to be defunct.  Does anyone out there have such a 
list or link?  TIA.

Joanne




From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 18 02:15:01 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve <bboy_mn@yahoo.com>)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 02:15:01 -0000
Subject: Comparisons of UK and US editions
In-Reply-To: <b0abvn+bic6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b0adb5+i4m1@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "joanne0012 <Joanne0012 at a...>"
<Joanne0012 at a...> wrote:
> Somewhere online I've seen an obsessive-compulsive listing,
> page-by-page, that identified everyplace where the language of the 
> UK and US editions of each HP book use slightly different wording. 
>
> I thought I had a link to it in HPGalleries, but it seems to be 
> defunct.  Does anyone out there have such a list or link?  TIA.
> 
> Joanne

bboy_mn:

The Harry Potter Lexicon - the greatest compilation of HP knowledge
outside of JKR's office.

http://www.i2k.com/~svderark/lexicon/help.html#british

Scroll down to "Language Resouces" and you will see the various book
titles listed.

bboy_mn






From bloubet at incanmonkey.com  Sat Jan 18 06:03:24 2003
From: bloubet at incanmonkey.com (bloubet at incanmonkey.com)
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 23:03:24 -0700 (MST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] RE: The Book: Maybe it's a good thing
In-Reply-To: <1042802092.456.46332.m12@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <1042869803.96351@incanmonkey.com>

Heidi wrote:

>>What does the not-quite-six-month wait mean for you?

A lot of unknowns. <grin>

One certainty: finding a new job. (I got laid off today; my company closed.)

6 months of losing weight and getting in shape.

6 months of saving money for travel.

About 150 unpacked boxes. (Just moved into my new house.)

1 birthday.

2 flower gardens, 1 pond, and 1 vegetable garden started.

1 film and music conference (South by Southwest) worked.

At least 1 more pass through canon.

8 worship services attended.

Dozens of prayers uttered (for that new job, mostly <grin>).

1 classic car sold. 

8 x 6 feet of shelves built.

75 films watched. (I've been inspired by Dan Radcliffe.)

1 continuing education class taken for massage therapy.

About 50 massages given.

At least one sculpture finished.

At least one afghan finished.

Hours of music practice.

One book outline finished.

30 roleplaying games played.

Several hours of language study/review.

About 100 hours of housecleaning.

About 100 loads of laundry.

About 100 books read.

No dates, unless I'm pleasantly surprised by someone I haven't met yet. <grin>

About 24 days worked in a bookstore. Plus extra time around June 21st. <grin>


I think that'll do for now...

bel



From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Jan 18 07:53:06 2003
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston) <catlady@wicca.net>)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 07:53:06 -0000
Subject: supervised reading/dog & pizza/pro Fanfic/name Prosper/end up badly
Message-ID: <b0b152+d8s4@eGroups.com>

Heidi Birthday! I missed it! *hugs Heidi*

Hey, here it's still Friday, so I'm not time for Rose habile_gal's 
birthday!

Pip :: twinkles cheerfully at Catlady::
<< Really? You let a five year old read any adult book they like? >>

As a child-free person, I rarely am in any position to supervise 
five-year-olds, but my reflex would be to do with them as my parents 
did with me: they can read any book that they find in my bookcases IF 
they show signs of using books carefully, not damaging them. That 
seems like what you said about your parents.

My friend Lee's mother had that principal, but put certain books on 
the top shelf (where Lee can't reach them even as an adult, unless 
he stands on a chair). Mostly anatomy textbooks from her college and 
a genteelly phrased "guidance for marital intimacy". She implied that 
the problem with the anatomy books was that cut-up people are yucky, 
rather than that they included the reproductive system. If I were 
going to arrange my bookcases for their effect on a person much 
younger and shorter than I, I think I would put the expensive art 
books with the color prints on the top shelves. To protect the books 
from the children, not the children from the books. And it is yucky 
books (histories of the Holocaust, not anatomy textbooks), rather 
than sexy books, that I might want to protect children from. That 
is a topic: should (some class of people) be protected from the 
knowledge that there are real horrors in the world?

Meira wrote:

<< I used to enjoy walking my dog late at night there because it is 
deserted, and there's no one there. One day, a car drives by and stops 
next to me and the people inside tell me "Why are you walking all 
alone in this part of the neighborhood for? Don't you know that you 
can get assaulted and raped here?" >> 

Only if your dog is so small that the would-be assailant thinks it 
unable to defend you.

<< i saw in the pizza place menu that they have a pineapple topping 
option, so *some* people might like it >>

Pineapple, mushroom, and Canadian bacon (ham) is *my* favorite. You 
don't have to watch me while I eat it. You being from Israel, maybe 
you are more squicked by the ham than the pineapple. (Later, Meira 
revealed that she is more squicked by the mushroom: <<both myself and 
my mother hate mushrooms with passion *g* >>.)

There used to be a lovely place around here that had a Dessert Pizza 
of peach slices and blueberries with cinnamon-sugar instead of tomato 
sauce *yum*.

Steve bboy_mn wrote:

<< I think JKR and her publishers should hold a contest to see who 
can write the best HP fan fiction, then compile the best of the best 
in various age catagories, and publish them in a book. >>

Marion Zimmer Bradley made her publisher, DAW, publish books of 
Darkover fanfic selected by her. 

Rachel wrote:

<< And I'm rather attached to the name Prosper now. >>

I never ever read The Thief Lord, but I've been dithering for many 
months over whether to name Pansy Parkinson's father Prosper or 
Prospect (either way, he's embarrassed by the unusual name and 
chooses to call himself by the more normal name Prospero).

Elkins wrote:

<< insisted that I would end up badly not because I was angry, but 
rather, because I was selfish, manipulative, inconsiderate and 
ungrateful, as well as probably incapable of real love; because I 
take, take, take, while never giving back a thing in return; >>

I thought that was the road to USAmerican success, not to ending up 
badly! *hugs Elkins*




From lupinesque at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 18 13:24:33 2003
From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z <lupinesque@yahoo.com>)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 13:24:33 -0000
Subject: Laurie documentary (v old news)
Message-ID: <b0bkih+8buh@eGroups.com>

I only just learned of the existence of The Real World of Harry 
Potter, a non-official documentary-style thing from 2001 narrated by 
Hugh Laurie (there was some lobbying around these parts for him to 
play Arthur Weasley, IIRC).  It aired on PBS and I'd love to see it.  
Any opinions from those who did?

If it comes on again, please give a shout.

Amy Z




From gandharvika at hotmail.com  Sat Jan 18 15:23:17 2003
From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 15:23:17 +0000
Subject: OoP Insanity 
Message-ID: <F348FubAnDEe03qLDhd00014bf9@hotmail.com>





This morning I was thinking about OoP (well...aren't we all?...) and 
wondering who will be the one who's going to die.  Though I have my money on 
Hagrid, I started wondering, maybe it's going to be Ron.  Oh no!  That would 
be awful.  He has his whole life ahead of him!  It would totally crush 
Harry!  Not Ron!  I can handle Hagrid, even Dumbledore, but not Ron!  And 
then I literally started having a minor anxiety attack about the whole thing 
before I caught myself...

*Please*, somebody out there tell me that I haven't gone off the deep end.  
Tell me that I'm not the only one who has bonded with the characters in 
these books so strongly that it would cause me to start reacting in such an 
irrational way.

-Gail B.

_________________________________________________________________
STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* 
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail




From melclaros at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 18 17:08:14 2003
From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros <melclaros@yahoo.com>)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 17:08:14 -0000
Subject: Age suitability of canon
In-Reply-To: <b06eff+q23f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b0c1lu+dkjo@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "siriusgeologist 
<lrcjestes at e...>" <lrcjestes at e...> wrote:
> 
> I really don't mean to be argumentative this week, but the HP 
> released to date definitely *are* suitable for seven year olds. 


Do you HAVE a seven year old?  

 
> remember reading one interview that said JKR's 7 yo daughter was 
> enjoying the books 


And that's funny because I remember one--Time Magazine upon release 
of GoF where JKR herself was quoted as saying she would NOT ALLOW her 
daughter to read the books at her (at the time) age.

This is a real "bugaboo" of mine. What is the RUSH? These books are 
going to be around for a very long time.? Wait until your children 
can understand, appreciate and enjoy them! If you want to read them 
yourself, go for it! Have a ball, I've read them all twice on my own 
after sharing them with my son (who was 10 when GoF came out and even 
then asked to take breaks while reading certain parts of it.) There 
were moments. I never even THOUGHT of reading it to my daughter who 
was(coincidentally) at the time, SEVEN.  My son will be 13 on the day 
OoP is released, I believe he will be able to handle what JKR has 
ready to throw at him. My 9 year old will not. Hell, *I* might not.

(It's not Snape, It's not Snape....)
Melpomene






From foxmoth at qnet.com  Sat Jan 18 17:31:47 2003
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999 <foxmoth@qnet.com>)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 17:31:47 -0000
Subject: Protecting
Message-ID: <b0c323+p6ou@eGroups.com>

Catlady asked:
>>should (some class of people) be protected from the 
knowledge that there are real horrors in the world?<<

At least for children, it's not just a question of "should."
Children, like housecats, have more ability than one might think 
to regulate their guardians' behavior. 

Believe me, it didn't take more than one episode of nightmares 
and bedwetting to make me realize that "children need to feel 
safe in their beds" is not a metaphor. Never mind "scarred for 
life", I just don't want to be up at 2:00 AM to change the sheets.
<g>

It's bad enough you have to go through this sort of thing on 
account of, say, a parent's business trip. Think about having to 
do it because of a movie or a story that somebody else decided 
to share with your child and you'll understand why some parents 
get tetchy about it.

Every child is different. My child at age 8 or so enjoyed watching 
the Top Gun video and would FF past the love scenes with 
aplomb, but ET freaked him out. He would *not* watch it. Go 
figure.

Pippin




From mb2910 at hotmail.com  Sat Jan 18 17:34:03 2003
From: mb2910 at hotmail.com (meira_q <mb2910@hotmail.com>)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 17:34:03 -0000
Subject: Gay genetics, slash and the right to hate
In-Reply-To: <187.14967b8f.2b5998b3@aol.com>
Message-ID: <b0c36b+ksc8@eGroups.com>

I wrote earlier:

If being gay or straight or bi isn't about personal taste and 
preference, then what *is*? Be it genetics, personal choice or 
whatever you'd like to think  makes someone gay or straight or bi, it 
*is* what you prefer. It's who you are personally attracted to.


Lurking Linda wrote:

OK - so when did you CHOOSE to by straight?  Do you remember that 
decision? How old were you when you decided to be attracted to member 
of the opposite sex?

Or is your attraction to members of the opposite sex just "natural" 
for you? If something is "natural" is it really a "choice"?


Me again:

It isn't a *conscious and willing* choice. People don't sit and 
ponder "do I want to be gay or straight?" "do I want to be right 
handed or left handed?" "do I want to like or hate mushrooms on my 
pizza?"

You just do. And those are your preferences.
Imagine a gay man. Naturally, he will prefer having a relationship 
with another man, and not with a woman.How would you call that if 
not "preferences"?

He can choose wether to have a relationship with a man or with a 
woman.

Since I'm not a native English speaker, I might not be aware of the 
existance of a word that better describes this than "preferences". I 
am always willing to increase my vocabulary...

Meira (perfecting the art of procrastination)




From mb2910 at hotmail.com  Sat Jan 18 17:56:09 2003
From: mb2910 at hotmail.com (meira_q <mb2910@hotmail.com>)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 17:56:09 -0000
Subject: supervised reading/dog & pizza/pro Fanfic/name Prosper/end up badly
In-Reply-To: <b0b152+d8s4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b0c4fp+qucl@eGroups.com>

Catlady wrote:

<snip>
should (some class of people) be protected from the knowledge that 
there are real horrors in the world?


Me:

Kids are taught here from a very early age about the Holocaust. Every 
year, about a week before the Independence Day, there's the Holocaust 
Memorial day. There's a siren (which I can't remember if it sounds in 
the morning of the actual day, or the evening before), during which, 
everyone stops whatever it is they're doing and stand up. Even people 
in cars, or buses get out of the car and stand up.
Schools, (as well as workplaces and Yad Va-Shem - the Holocaust 
museum) hold memorial services, on TV, some channels are off, while 
others show Holocaust related movies and documentaries, even the 
children's channel. The films that youger kids see will naturally 
show less graphic images of the horrors of the holocaust, will 
probably talk about children in the holocaust and done a bit more 
gently than when talking about the Holocaust to 15 year-olds, but 
they do learn about it. They have a right to.

When I was in 3rd grade, a real survivor of the Holocaust was invited 
to tell his story to our class. One of my favorite books, that I had 
since I was about 6, was about a brother and a sister (or two 
brothers?) and how they had to hide in all sorts of places, and they 
got separated. I read and re-read it so many times that by the time I 
turned 7 it was all tattered and dog-eared, and sadly I lost it in 
one of the many times we moved around.


***


I wrote:

<< I used to enjoy walking my dog late at night there because it is
deserted, and there's no one there. One day, a car drives by and stops
next to me and the people inside tell me "Why are you walking all
alone in this part of the neighborhood for? Don't you know that you
can get assaulted and raped here?" >>


Catlady wrote:

Only if your dog is so small that the would-be assailant thinks it
unable to defend you.


Me again:

heh:). She's medium-sized. About Labrador-sized. 25kgs.


***


I wrote:

<< i saw in the pizza place menu that they have a pineapple topping
option, so *some* people might like it >>


Catlady wrote:

Pineapple, mushroom, and Canadian bacon (ham) is *my* favorite. You
don't have to watch me while I eat it. You being from Israel, maybe
you are more squicked by the ham than the pineapple. (Later, Meira
revealed that she is more squicked by the mushroom: <<both myself and
my mother hate mushrooms with passion *g* >>.)
<snip>


Me again:

I am not so squicked by ham as much as I don't really like the taste 
of it. I did when we lived in Brazil, though.


***


Steve bboy_mn wrote:

<< I think JKR and her publishers should hold a contest to see who
can write the best HP fan fiction, then compile the best of the best
in various age catagories, and publish them in a book. >>


Catlady wrote:

Marion Zimmer Bradley made her publisher, DAW, publish books of
Darkover fanfic selected by her.


Me again:

In the Star Trek fandom, there's been for a few years now, a contest 
of short stories, and the winners get published in a book, and 
there's a prize money and everything. The books (the ones that I 
have, at least) are called "Strange, New Worlds" (I & II) and they 
have some of the best ST stories I've read.

Meira.

We dance round in a ring and suppose,
But the Secret sits in the middle and knows.
~The Secret Sits / Robert Frost~




From annemehr at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 18 19:31:24 2003
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr <annemehr@yahoo.com>)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 19:31:24 -0000
Subject: OoP Insanity
In-Reply-To: <F348FubAnDEe03qLDhd00014bf9@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <b0ca2c+6qc2@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Gail Bohacek" 
<gandharvika at h...> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This morning I was thinking about OoP (well...aren't we all?...) and 
> wondering who will be the one who's going to die.

<snip>
 
 And 
> then I literally started having a minor anxiety attack about the 
whole thing 
> before I caught myself...


Only this morning?  What TOOK you so long?  ;)
I have been angsting over Harry in particular for well over a year now 
-- at some point I realized he might actually *die* and I have such 
excellent reasons for him not to! <wonders if we should start up the 
"Order of Molly Weasley" whose memebers spend meetings wringing hands 
over possibility of deaths of any of the kids...>


> 
> *Please*, somebody out there tell me that I haven't gone off the 
deep end.  
> Tell me that I'm not the only one who has bonded with the characters 
in 
> these books so strongly that it would cause me to start reacting in 
such an 
> irrational way.
> 
> -Gail B.

Well, I actually started to wonder the same thing, but I just decided 
to go with it.  These books are really *good*, and I refuse to pull 
back.  Fiction doesn't have to be *merely* entertainment, does it?

Annemehr
who just realized that trenchcoats are going to be in short supply 
soon out on TBAY...




From ZaraLyon at aol.com  Sat Jan 18 20:58:07 2003
From: ZaraLyon at aol.com (aurigae_prime <ZaraLyon@aol.com>)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 20:58:07 -0000
Subject: Age suitability of canon
In-Reply-To: <b0c1lu+dkjo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b0cf4v+t3mo@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Melpomene wrote:
> 
> And that's funny because I remember one--Time Magazine upon release 
> of GoF where JKR herself was quoted as saying she would NOT ALLOW 
her 
> daughter to read the books at her (at the time) age.
> 
Yes, I remember seeing this as well.

> This is a real "bugaboo" of mine. What is the RUSH? These books are 
> going to be around for a very long time.? Wait until your children 
> can understand, appreciate and enjoy them! If you want to read them 
> yourself, go for it!
<snip>
> I never even THOUGHT of reading it to my daughter who 
> was(coincidentally) at the time, SEVEN.  My son will be 13 on the 
day 
> OoP is released, I believe he will be able to handle what JKR has 
> ready to throw at him. My 9 year old will not. Hell, *I* might not.
> 

If I recall correctly, there was a discussion (this summer, I think) 
about gifted children, in which many of the group discussed having 
been precocious and/or gifted children. Which may be why some of us 
feel that the canon is suitable for younger children. When I was 
seven, I was sneaking into my mother's room to read murder mysteries. 
I left her romance novels alone, because they didn't interest me, but 
those mystery novels sure did! 

My personal reading material as a child was overseen by my parents in 
what seemed (and seems) to me a haphazard way. For instance, from the 
time I was 6 I was reading Babysitters Club books. And I recall one 
incident in particular, that when I was 8 I received a boxed set with 
a book in it called Boy Crazy Stacy. Mom took that one away from me 
and kept it in her desk, and I left it alone. We moved when I was 9, 
and mom put that book in the box with my other books. So, when I 
unpacked my books, guess what the first thing I read was? And my 
thoughts were, "Why was this kept from me?" All it was, was that the 
girl had a very innocent little summer crush on a boy. But when my 
mother found me reading it, she made me throw it in the trash. I 
think it's the only time before or since that I've ever thrown away a 
book. A counter example here happened to be both my first encounter 
with slash and my first encounter with "published" fanfiction. The 
book was "Return to the Secret Garden," and it was essentially a 
fanfic for The Secret Garden that had gotten published. The three 
children were grown up, and instead of a love triangle focused on the 
girl, it focused on one of the boys. I think I was 14 when mom and I 
found that while shopping. I wanted it on sight, without even needing 
to skim the first chapter, and she bought it, but I'm sure she never 
dreamed what was in it! It's still a favourite of mine. Really, I 
think it's difficult to try and censor for a precocious child. If you 
want to try to do so, you really need to read the books before you 
give them to your child, no matter how terrible or innocuous they 
sound at first. And after all, every child, precocious or not, is 
different. For someone who liked murder mysteries, I scared myself 
when I read Dracula at age 10 (though I maintain to this day that it 
was the cover illustration that did it). But Harry Potter? If it had 
been out when I was 7, I have no doubt that all 4 books would have 
been bought for me, and that I would have read them all, and that I 
would have been just as horrified at GoF as I was when it first came 
out and I was a 17 year old. I guess what I'm trying to say with this 
long rant is that it all depends on the child.

With regard to fanfic... Well, I read fanfic (including a few NC-17 
stories) from about the age of 12, and slash from the age of 14 
(largely because my first fandoms did not really involve slashable 
characters). I don't think it's harmed me at all. I suppose some 
would argue that my parents could/should have supervised my internet 
time more, but... they worked 10-12 hours a day, most days. I wasn't 
doing drugs, I wasn't having sex, I wasn't even emulating the things 
I read about. I just read and enjoyed. It's also worth mentioning 
that, up until I was about 16, the smutty NC-17 stories were not 
something I read (though I'm told that if I were a boy, I'd have 
been reading them from age 10 onwards). Any NC-17 stories I read 
before that point might have had sex or violence, but it wasn't 
gratuitous, it was driving the plot. Do I think I'm a better person 
because of fanfic? Well... I think I'm  better person for 
participating in fandoms. Each fandom has taught me something 
different, and at this point, it seems that what I've learned from my 
previous fandoms has been leading up to making me a better part of 
this fandom. So, one of my New Year's resolutions is to participate 
more actively in the HP fandom, since I haven't really done anything 
since GoF was published.

Delurking for the New Year, and hopefully permanently,
Rhiannon




From macloudt at yahoo.co.uk  Sat Jan 18 21:10:50 2003
From: macloudt at yahoo.co.uk (Mary Ann <macloudt@yahoo.co.uk>)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 21:10:50 -0000
Subject: Birthday Greetings!
Message-ID: <b0cfsq+7crh@eGroups.com>

:::::hangs up balloons and drapes streamers all around the room:::::

Yes, we're celebrating another birthday today.  It's our very own co-
Head Elf, Saitaina!  Birthday greetings can be sent to the List or to 
saitaina at wmni.net

Have a lovely day, Saity, and I hope you get all the HP goodies you 
hoped for!

Mary Ann
(TBE)




From melclaros at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 18 21:47:07 2003
From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros <melclaros@yahoo.com>)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 21:47:07 -0000
Subject: Age suitability of canon
In-Reply-To: <b0cf4v+t3mo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b0ci0r+71tb@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "aurigae_prime 
<ZaraLyon at a...>" <ZaraLyon at a...> wrote:
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Melpomene wrote:
> 
> If I recall correctly, there was a discussion (this summer, I 
think) 
> about gifted children, in which many of the group discussed having 
> been precocious and/or gifted children. Which may be why some of us 
> feel that the canon is suitable for younger children. 


I'm *not* talking about the occasional exceptional child (and just so 
we're on the same page here, both chidren referred to in my previous 
post are in fact "gifted" by whatever definition is being used by 
schools these days--IQ is one that I know of--being annoyingly 
precocious is certainly another) who FINDS a book on their own and 
devours it. Yes that most certainly happens. I am talking about the 
more common situation where a PARENT finds it absolutely necessary to 
jump on the bandwagon and because she (almost always a she) reads or 
hears  1. the the books are Enormously Popular! and/or 2. Janet 
Jones' seven year old read it and had no problem so what's wrong with 
yours?
This parent runs out and in quick succession force reads material to 
a young child that is, in the opinion of the *writer herself*, 
inappropriate for a child that age!
We also must make a diferentiation between what a child is able to 
READ and what that same child is able to UNDERSTAND. Yes, even a 
GIFTED child. Sure they understand more big words and possibly even 
some more adult concepts. But it is the RARE seven year old, gifted 
or otherwise who is ready to fully appreciate PoA at any more than 
face value. (I use PoA as my example instead of GoF because in my 
personal opinion it is a far more complex and compelling story) It is 
a RARE, seven year old, gifted or otherwise who will benefit at all 
from reading the graveyard scene in GoF. The point here is not "No 7 
year old should ever EVER read GoF" but "WHY does a 7 year old NEED 
to read GoF?" I do not censor my children's reading. I don't have to. 
(Neither one of them reads enough to bother, dammit, but currently 
Son is reading LOTR and Daugter is reading something by LeGuin--
Catwings?) Face it, the AVERAGE 7 year old is not going to gravitate 
to a 700 page book with no pictures. Period. 




From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca  Sat Jan 18 21:50:59 2003
From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (lucky_kari <lucky_kari@yahoo.ca>)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 21:50:59 -0000
Subject: Couplethinking
In-Reply-To: <avp0ko+flb3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b0ci83+kjce@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "ssk7882 <skelkins at a...>" 
<skelkins at a...> wrote:
> Eileen:
> 
> > Elkins, you know that I am a pretty serious shipper. 
> 
> And yet, all the way back in April, you shuddered in horror at 
> FORLORNBARTEMIUS!  Now, what was so terrible about 
FORLORNBARTEMIUS?  
> And you didn't like any of the 'shippy Fourth Man variants, either.
> 
> So what gives with that?  Do you only enjoy *reciprocated* 
romantic 
> fixations or something?

You have my number, don't you? It's that Weasley background kicking 
in. I enjoyed unreciprocated love for exactly a year, when I was 
about twelve, and since then, the rejected lover does not get my 
sympathy. I sit and listen to my beloved Beatles songs, but cannot 
help yelling, "And I can see why she dumped you!" every once and a 
while. 

Maybe it's because all the unreciprocated love I've seen in real 
life was a case of the guy needing to be whacked around the head a 
bit, and told to get back to reality?

> > I can't help it. The moment I see two people who might do 
> > well together, I want to pair 'em up. 
> 
> Oh, dear.  Are we talking just fictional characters here, or does 
> that carry over into RL as well?

In RL as well. <covers shamefully red face> But don't worry. I don't 
do anything. I just watch knowingly.

But, you know, one pairing I made in my mind two years ago is 
happening. They'll be engaged pretty soon, I'm quite sure, and...

They're Becoming Pod People! He sat through our terrible choir 
performance the other day, and watched her! Mental, I tell you. 

> > How this sits with the fact that I haven't the slightest desire 
to 
> > pair myself up, I do not know. 
> 
> Schadenfreude?  ;-)

Or it might be some inner drive to propagate the species, which I've 
somehow transferred to other people. ;-) 

> You know, I used to have this terrible reputation for breaking 
couples
> up?  I had a reputation as the anti-Cupid.  But I didn't mean to!  
> Honest!  I don't know how it would always happen.  I'd just be, 
you 
> know, *talking* to someone, and then the next thing I knew, they'd 
> be quitting their job, growing their hair out, and ditching their 
SO.
> 

Or swimming around TBAY!

Eileen




From kelleythompson at gbronline.com  Sat Jan 18 22:11:05 2003
From: kelleythompson at gbronline.com (Kelley <kelleythompson@gbronline.com>)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 22:11:05 -0000
Subject: Birthday Greetings!
In-Reply-To: <b0cfsq+7crh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b0cjdp+en5j@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Mary Ann <macloudt at y...>" 
<macloudt at y...> wrote:
> :::::hangs up balloons and drapes streamers all around the room:::::
> 
> Yes, we're celebrating another birthday today.  It's our very own 
co-
> Head Elf, Saitaina!  Birthday greetings can be sent to the List or 
to 
> saitaina at w...
> 
> Have a lovely day, Saity, and I hope you get all the HP goodies you 
> hoped for! >>>>>>>>


Happy birthday, Saity Elf!  No socks for you this year, I'm 
afraid...here's a lovely checkered pot holder and a sparkly brillo 
pad; perhaps for use as a charming set of earrings....

:-D

Have a great day, Saitaina!


--Kelley





From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 18 22:23:50 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve <bboy_mn@yahoo.com>)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 22:23:50 -0000
Subject: Brit-Speak Help Again: "Knees up" >??
Message-ID: <b0ck5m+5vjl@eGroups.com>

"Prince Harry - the party prince - will be celebrating his birthday
quietly at home today and insists he will not be having a knees-up."

Given who this is about, I seriously doubt that it is a sex thing.

Can anybody help me with the phrase "kneed up"?

bboy_mn




From ZaraLyon at aol.com  Sat Jan 18 22:27:17 2003
From: ZaraLyon at aol.com (aurigae_prime <ZaraLyon@aol.com>)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 22:27:17 -0000
Subject: Age suitability of canon
In-Reply-To: <b0ci0r+71tb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b0ckc5+5vm2@eGroups.com>

Melpomene writes:
> I'm *not* talking about the occasional exceptional child (and just 
so 
> we're on the same page here, both chidren referred to in my 
previous 
> post are in fact "gifted" by whatever definition is being used by 
> schools these days--IQ is one that I know of--being annoyingly 
> precocious is certainly another) who FINDS a book on their own and 
> devours it. Yes that most certainly happens. I am talking about the 
> more common situation where a PARENT finds it absolutely necessary 
to 
> jump on the bandwagon and because she (almost always a she) reads 
or 
> hears  1. the the books are Enormously Popular! and/or 2. Janet 
> Jones' seven year old read it and had no problem so what's wrong 
with 
> yours?
> This parent runs out and in quick succession force reads material 
to 
> a young child that is, in the opinion of the *writer herself*, 
> inappropriate for a child that age!

I'd like to point out that, although JKR may feel that the books were 
not appropriate for her own daughter, that doesn't mean that they are 
inappropriate for all children of that age. IMO, no one knows what's 
best for a child like the parents *of that child* (for clarification, 
I'm not referring to abusive or otherwise unfit parents, I am 
referring to the run-of-the-mill parent). 

> We also must make a diferentiation between what a child is able to 
> READ and what that same child is able to UNDERSTAND. Yes, even a 
> GIFTED child. Sure they understand more big words and possibly even 
> some more adult concepts. But it is the RARE seven year old, gifted 
> or otherwise who is ready to fully appreciate PoA at any more than 
> face value. (I use PoA as my example instead of GoF because in my 
> personal opinion it is a far more complex and compelling story) It 
is 
> a RARE, seven year old, gifted or otherwise who will benefit at all 
> from reading the graveyard scene in GoF. The point here is not "No 
7 
> year old should ever EVER read GoF" but "WHY does a 7 year old NEED 
> to read GoF?" 

And my answer to that is, provided that the child can handle 
the "scary" aspects of the book, to read a damn good story! 
Sometimes, you just read because you want to know what happens. You 
aren't consciously reading to "get something" out of the book, you're 
reading because you like the story and care about the characters. The 
first time I read the HP books, at least PS/SS through PoA, I was 
reading because I liked the story, because it held my interest. It 
wasn't until I was reading them for the second or third time that I 
really started to think about the themes. I was reading for fun. 
There is nothing wrong with reading at face value. And I also believe 
that children do pick things up, even if they can't articulate them 
yet.  

> I do not censor my children's reading. I don't have to. 
> (Neither one of them reads enough to bother, dammit, but currently 
> Son is reading LOTR and Daugter is reading something by LeGuin--
> Catwings?) Face it, the AVERAGE 7 year old is not going to 
gravitate 
> to a 700 page book with no pictures. Period.

LotR I still haven't read. I tried when I was 12 and again last year 
after I saw the movie, but I stay stuck 1/4 through Two Towers. :-) 
Catwings is a terrific book though. As for 700 pages and no pictures, 
well, I must have been not at all average. For me, books ended too 
quickly. 700 pages would have been a heaven on earth for me. ;-)

Rhiannon




From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Jan 18 22:58:22 2003
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston) <catlady@wicca.net>)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 22:58:22 -0000
Subject: Birthday Greetings!
In-Reply-To: <b0cfsq+7crh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b0cm6e+dkeh@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Mary Ann <macloudt at y...>" 
<macloudt at y...> wrote:
> :::::hangs up balloons and drapes streamers all around the room:::::
> 
> Yes, we're celebrating another birthday today.  

Happy Birthday Saitaina! Here's wishing you healthy kitties and fish 
and more money in your wallet than you remember having been there!




From saitaina at wizzards.net  Sat Jan 18 23:07:54 2003
From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 15:07:54 -0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Birthday Greetings!
References: <b0cm6e+dkeh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <077901c2bf46$6f58c620$d2b8efd8@p2x5n9>

Rita wrote:

<Happy Birthday Saitaina! Here's wishing
you healthy kitties and fish
and more money in your wallet than you
remember having been there!>

Awww, thank you Rita *sniffles* Those
were the best wishes yet!  *hugs Rita
till she turns purply colour*




From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Jan 18 23:08:22 2003
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston) <catlady@wicca.net>)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 23:08:22 -0000
Subject: Brit-Speak Help Again: "Knees up" >??
In-Reply-To: <b0ck5m+5vjl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b0cmp6+l9op@eGroups.com>

*hugs Saitaina whil blushing*

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Steve <bboy_mn at y...>" 
<bboy_mn at y...> wrote:

> Can anybody help me with the phrase "kneed up"?

OT was discussing on-line dictionaries recently. I love 
http://www.onelook.com/index.html -- it checks many on-line 
dictionaries for you, including the deservedly praised dictionary.com 
-- and including specialised and slang dictionaries. This time it 
found me:

http://www.peevish.co.uk/slang/k.htm
"Knees Up. Noun. A lively party. {Informal}. E.g."There's going to be 
a knees-up at Jenny's tonight, it's her birthday." >>

and

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=knee*1+8
"(British informal dated or humorous) A knees-up is an energetic 
noisy party where people dance."

I had never before heard any implication that a knees-up must include 
dancing, but that would explain the phrase: the knees go up because 
the dance is the Charleston or some such.




From Ali at zymurgy.org  Sun Jan 19 00:02:05 2003
From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali <Ali@zymurgy.org>)
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 00:02:05 -0000
Subject: Brit-Speak Help Again: "Knees up" >??
In-Reply-To: <b0cmp6+l9op@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b0cptt+2hgq@eGroups.com>

*
> 
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Steve <bboy_mn at y...>" 
> <bboy_mn at y...> wrote:
> 
> > Can anybody help me with the phrase "kneed up"?
> 
> OT was discussing on-line dictionaries recently. I love 
> http://www.onelook.com/index.html  
> http://www.peevish.co.uk/slang/k.htm
> "Knees Up. Noun. A lively party. {Informal}. E.g."There's going to 
be 
> a knees-up at Jenny's tonight, it's her birthday." >>
> 
> and
> 
> http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=knee*1+8
> "(British informal dated or humorous) A knees-up is an energetic 
> noisy party where people dance."
> 
> I had never before heard any implication that a knees-up must 
include  dancing, but that would explain the phrase: the knees go up 
because the dance is the Charleston or some such.

There's a song  called "Knees up, Mother Brown":

Knees up, Mother Brown, 
Knees up, Mother Brown. 
Knees up, Knees up,
Don't get the breeze up,
Knees up, Mother Brown.

It's the kind of song which I associate with old Music Halls, but 
where people sing and do the actions with the song getting faster and 
faster until everyone collapses on the floor - well that's how it was 
down in my youth ;)

A knees up would be the same as a "shin dig" where people "let their 
hair down". 

Ali

Who realises that was all irrelevant and is now throwing in the towel 
for the night.





From morrigan at byz.org  Sun Jan 19 00:18:00 2003
From: morrigan at byz.org (Morrigan)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 18:18:00 -0600
Subject: Gay genetics, slash and the right to hate
In-Reply-To: <b0c36b+ksc8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <OCEOIOOCLDBFPDHBBCEMEEOCCLAA.morrigan@byz.org>

-----Original Message-----
From: meira_q <mb2910 at hotmail.com>

>It isn't a *conscious and willing* choice. People don't sit and
>ponder "do I want to be gay or straight?" "do I want to be right
>handed or left handed?" "do I want to like or hate mushrooms on my
>pizza?"

This much I can agree with.

>You just do. And those are your preferences.
>Imagine a gay man. Naturally, he will prefer having a relationship
>with another man, and not with a woman.  How would you call that if
>not "preferences"?

Not preferences, that's for certain.  Here is the dictionary definition of
"preference" for you: "The right or chance to so choose."

Sexual orientation is NOT a choice.  Not only does the scientific research
back this up, but how can you argue with millions of people who have this
very experience?  I know that I didn't choose to be queer, and of the
numerous friends I have who are also queer, none of them have ever expressed
that they chose to be queer.  Why would anyone do that?  Because despite the
changes we have seen in society - and there have been HUGE strides in the
past 10 years alone - it is still not something you would WANT to be.

>He can choose whether to have a relationship with a man or with a woman.

Oh really?  I beg to differ.  I'd like you to think for a moment, if you are
in fact heterosexual, and imagine choosing a woman as your sexual and
romantic partner instead of a man.  Could you do it and feel you were being
true to yourself?  Could you do it at all?

This isn't to say it can't and hasn't been done.  There are plenty of
examples of people who went against what they wanted and felt was right and
got married and had basically an empty shell of a life for themselves, until
later in life they decided they couldn't live like that any longer.  I can
think of very little worse than spending my life pretending to be something
I'm not, and I wouldn't wish that on anyone, regardless of whether or not it
makes society sleep better at night.

Love is a complicated thing without even bringing sexual orientation into
the mix.  But isn't it worth it to do it the way you know is right for you,
and not the way society thinks you should?  Shouldn't our first love always
be ourselves, and therefore we must be true to ourselves?

>Since I'm not a native English speaker, I might not be aware of the
>existance of a word that better describes this than "preferences". I
>am always willing to increase my vocabulary...

Considering that you used "choice" and "preference" interchangably, I don't
think it's a matter of your vocabulary.  I think it's a lack of comphrension
on your part.  And I don't know if I've helped any with that or not, but I
hope so.  I don't think you're a bad person or trying to be argumentative, I
just don't think you quite understand.

Morrigan
www.RestrictedSection.org - STILL PROUD
www.livejournal.com/users/hermorrine
www.byz.org/~morrigan/hpslash.html




From harryp at stararcher.com  Sun Jan 19 00:51:46 2003
From: harryp at stararcher.com (ecaplan_52556 <harryp@stararcher.com>)
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 00:51:46 -0000
Subject: News from Bloomsbury - finally!
In-Reply-To: <b045hh+iqhe@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b0csr2+4ah7@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "joanne0012 <
Joanne0012 at a...>" <Joanne0012 at a...> wrote:
> 
> > 'It is time,' he said, 'for me to tell you what I should have
> > told  you five years ago, Harry.  
> 
> Well, I'm certainlly delighted that the book is finally coming out
> BUT I hope they take the time and trouble to edit it properly,
> so we don't find errors like dead parents coming back out of
> a wand in the wrong order.  Or Dumbledore telling Harry that
> he should have told him something 5 years ago, when it's
> been less than 5 years since they first met.

Perhaps Dumbledore regrets (too strong a word?) not having 
introduced himself to Harry earlier than events actually 
transpired.





From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Sun Jan 19 04:21:43 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve <bboy_mn@yahoo.com>)
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 04:21:43 -0000
Subject: News from Bloomsbury - finally!
In-Reply-To: <b0csr2+4ah7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b0d94n+u183@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "ecaplan_52556 <harryp at s...>"
<harryp at s...> wrote:
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "joanne0012 <
> Joanne0012 at a...>" <Joanne0012 at a...> wrote:
> > 
> > > 'It is time,' he said, 'for me to tell you what I should have
> > > told  you five years ago, Harry.  


> > 
> > Well, I'm certainlly delighted that the book is finally coming out
> > BUT I hope they take the time and trouble to edit it properly,
> > so we don't find errors like dead parents coming back out of
> > a wand in the wrong order.  Or Dumbledore telling Harry that
> > he should have told him something 5 years ago, when it's
> > been less than 5 years since they first met.


> 
> Perhaps Dumbledore regrets (too strong a word?) not having 
> introduced himself to Harry earlier than events actually 
> transpired.
>
> Ecaplan

bboy_mn:
What I'm going to say isn't news, other people have already pointed it
out. I'm just going to be a little more obnoxious about it.

'five years' doesn't mean 5.000000 years. It means about five years;
about.

Harry's in his fifth year, Dumbledore runs a school, his mind thinks
in school years. A fifth year student is five years separated from a
first year student. So, in student time, five years. 

About five years ago, he thinks he should have told Harry this
information. If he is referring to telling Harry BEFORE Harry started
school them it is getting very close to 5 years exactly (still a bit
short), depending on when before Harry started that Dumbledore might
have told him.

So five years is not an absolute precision unit of time, it's a
generalization. 


Of couse, that's just my opinion.

bboy_mn





From HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com  Sun Jan 19 05:47:03 2003
From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com (HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 19 Jan 2003 05:47:03 -0000
Subject: Reminder - Weekly Chat 
Message-ID: <1042955223.24.70588.m3@yahoogroups.com>


We would like to remind you of this upcoming event.

Weekly Chat 

Date: Sunday, January 19, 2003 
Time: All Day

Hi everyone! Don't forget, chat happens today, 11 am Pacific, 2
pm Eastern, 7 pm UK time. Go into any Yahoo chat room and type
/join HP:1 
For further info, see the Humongous BigFile, section 3.3.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/hbfile.html#33

Hope to see you there! 

 





From slomudskipper at hotmail.com  Sun Jan 19 01:42:46 2003
From: slomudskipper at hotmail.com (slomudskipper <slomudskipper@hotmail.com>)
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 01:42:46 -0000
Subject: Recommendations on -Guides to HP- books?
In-Reply-To: <b0a73b+hvnv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b0cvqm+oio9@eGroups.com>


Thanks, Richelle, Ebony, Barb and Kathryn
for your ideas about which books are the best.

I think I'll have to at least check out the Highfield book, since a 
couple of you thought that was good.
And thanks for the warning on "the magical worlds of HP".

My main complaint about the biography of JK I mentioned was that any 
old dummy could have written it. It didn't have anything more than I 
would assume most HP fans already know. So yeah, I guess it's 
probably best just to wait for JK to write her own.

SloMudSkipper,
wondering if she'll see anyone she knows at the bookstore on the 
night OotP comes out





From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Jan 19 06:42:26 2003
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston) <catlady@wicca.net>)
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 06:42:26 -0000
Subject: Reminder - Weekly Chat
In-Reply-To: <1042955223.24.70588.m3@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <b0dhci+e4bg@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, 
HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com wrote:
> 
> We would like to remind you of this upcoming event. Weekly Chat 
> Date: Sunday, January 19, 2003 

If I'm not in chat tomorrow  (today to Europe and Eastern Time)  it 
is because something seems to have gone  wrong  with the battteries 
of my laptop. I kicked Tim off HIS computer to write this, but you 
can tell how much trouble I have typing on its slowand resistant 
keyboard. Not suitable for chat-speed.




From dianasdolls at yahoo.com  Sun Jan 19 10:08:55 2003
From: dianasdolls at yahoo.com (Diana <dianasdolls@yahoo.com>)
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 10:08:55 -0000
Subject: Casting news for Sirius Black & Dumbledore
Message-ID: <b0dtfn+5f99@eGroups.com>

This may be old news, but just in case...

Ian McKellan is no longer listed as the replacement for Albus 
Dumbledore on the IMDB for PoA.  I've recently read 
in "Entertainment Weekly" that Michael Gambon is being considered 
for the role of Dumbledore.  In the picture of Gambon listed on the 
IMDB, he does look quite a bit like Richard Harris, IMO. 

As for the role of Sirius Black, Gary Oldman was offered the part, 
according to this week's "Entertainment Weekly".  Oldman is now 
being listed on the IMDB as cast as Sirius Black in the cast list 
for "Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban".  I've seen Oldman in 
so many American movies with an American accent that it actually 
surprised me to learn that he's British!  The guy is obviously 
*very* good at accents.  :)  He's a good choice for the part, IMO.  

Diana




From macloudt at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Jan 19 11:11:59 2003
From: macloudt at yahoo.co.uk (Mary Ann <macloudt@yahoo.co.uk>)
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 11:11:59 -0000
Subject: The Book: Maybe it's a good thing
In-Reply-To: <1042869803.96351@incanmonkey.com>
Message-ID: <b0e15v+m0lk@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, bloubet at i... wrote:
> Heidi wrote:
> 
> >>What does the not-quite-six-month wait mean for you?
> 
> A lot of unknowns. <grin>

Ah, well, let's give this a go!

-2 babies born to friends
-1 baby afghan crocheted (almost complete) and 1 baby cardigan knit 
(not started yet)
-1 combined birthday party for my 2 older kids (their birthdays are 
18 days apart)
-1 holiday in Cornwall (southwest England)...I hope!
-1 child starting preschool
-many hours playing the piano; it's been sitting idle for months!
-dozens of books read, including a comprehensive reread of books 1-4
-dozens of hours working at school as a lunchtime supervisor (love it)
-dozens more hours working at school voluntarily (love it)
-5 PTA meetings
-5 preschool committee meetings
-2 school discos
-about 20 Rainbows meetings (wee tiny Girl Guides)
-3 Rainbows planning meetings, which consist of 20 minutes of 
planning and 4 hours of wine, Chinese takeaway, and gossip
-1 or 2 Guide District meetings, which tend to take place in pubs 
(see why I love Guiding? ;) )
-several hours working towards becoming a Warranted Guide Leader
-at least 1 Beaver Scout meeting, after I opened my mouth and 
said "Sure, I can help out" before my brain kicked into gear
-some weight loss...*hopefully*
-several hours happily Elfing
-many craft projects started but not completed (trust me on this one)
-oh, and 1 or 2 hours of housework ;)

I, too, am glad that OoP is out on a Saturday, as I plan to lock 
myself away from DH and the kids, read non-stop, and hopefully finish 
it before Monday.  Sleep?  Who needs sleep?

Mary Ann
(who really should be doing some housework right now...nah!)




From mb2910 at hotmail.com  Sun Jan 19 11:53:03 2003
From: mb2910 at hotmail.com (meira_q <mb2910@hotmail.com>)
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 11:53:03 -0000
Subject: Gay genetics, slash and the right to hate
In-Reply-To: <OCEOIOOCLDBFPDHBBCEMEEOCCLAA.morrigan@byz.org>
Message-ID: <b0e3iv+3ckl@eGroups.com>

Me:
> >He can choose whether to have a relationship with a man or with a 
woman.


Morrigan: 
> Oh really?  I beg to differ.  I'd like you to think for a moment, 
if you are
> in fact heterosexual,


Me:
I am, in fact, heterosexual.

and imagine choosing a woman as your sexual and
> romantic partner instead of a man.  Could you do it and feel you 
were being
> true to yourself?  Could you do it at all?
> 
> This isn't to say it can't and hasn't been done.  There are plenty 
of
> examples of people who went against what they wanted and felt was 
right and
> got married and had basically an empty shell of a life for 
themselves, until
> later in life they decided they couldn't live like that any 
longer.  I can
> think of very little worse than spending my life pretending to be 
something
> I'm not, and I wouldn't wish that on anyone, regardless of whether 
or not it
> makes society sleep better at night.


Me:
This is exactly my point. A person can have any sexual orientation, 
but if s/he feels that s/he has to go against it, then it's his/her 
choice.


> 
> Love is a complicated thing without even bringing sexual 
orientation into
> the mix.  But isn't it worth it to do it the way you know is right 
for you,
> and not the way society thinks you should?  Shouldn't our first 
love always
> be ourselves, and therefore we must be true to ourselves?


Me:
No argument here. And not only in sex and love, but also in 
profession, and anything else.

> 
> >Since I'm not a native English speaker, I might not be aware of the
> >existance of a word that better describes this than "preferences". 
I
> >am always willing to increase my vocabulary...
> 
> Considering that you used "choice" and "preference" interchangably, 
I don't
> think it's a matter of your vocabulary.  I think it's a lack of 
comphrension
> on your part.


Me:
Very possibly it is. As I keep repeating (and if I don't, then I'm 
starting to do so now *g*), I crave knowledge and understanding, 
links and emails, don't be afraid to hurl them @ me :D.


Morrigan:
>And I don't know if I've helped any with that or not, but I
> hope so.  I don't think you're a bad person or trying to be 
argumentative, I
> just don't think you quite understand.


Me:
I don't think I'm a bad person either ^-^. And arguing isn't 
necessarily a bad thing. The only thing that *is* bad in arguing is 
when both parties are more concerned with voicing their own opinion 
rather than trying to listen to the other one.

"Most people are so concerned about getting in the last word, they 
ignore all the previous ones" ~MAD Mag~


Meira (who has her first end-of-semester exam on Tuesday)

"I believe in compulsory cannibalism. If people were forced to eat 
what they killed, there would be no more wars." -- Abbie Hoffman 

"The programmer's national anthem is 'AAAAAAAARRRRGHHHHH!!'."




From sushi at societyhappens.com  Sun Jan 19 11:59:42 2003
From: sushi at societyhappens.com (Sushi)
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 05:59:42 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: The Book: Maybe it's a good thing
In-Reply-To: <b0e15v+m0lk@eGroups.com>
References: <1042869803.96351@incanmonkey.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030119053529.0270b7e0@mail.societyhappens.com>


>Heidi wrote:
>
> >>What does the not-quite-six-month wait mean for you?

         Ooh, this is an interesting one.

         1 potential/probable legal battle (as plaintiff)
         3 novels roughed or better
         1 small business started
         100,000+ small metal or Neoprene rings interwoven with each other 
to form interesting items
         120+ jeweler's saw blades
         1+ pair(s) aviation snips, depending how well they hold up
         25+ assorted jewelry clasps
         100+ miles of wire of various sizes, colours, and alloys
         X craft and art shows (still looking)
         1+ writing contest(s), depending on entry fees
         X drawings
         1+ painting(s) completed
         1 printer paid off
         1 week-long visit from family in England (complete with requisite 
mooching *innocent look*)
         1 round trip ticket to Florida booked and purchased
         Saving up money for said ticket (or, even better, winning said 
legal battle)
         1 birthday
         1 spousal birthday
         2 sororal birthdays
         1 paternal birthday
         1 maternal birthday
         2 nepotic birthdays (or more - nine nieces and nephews are hard to 
keep track of)
         1 feline birthday (my cat is spoiled to the core)
         6 new(ish) hubcaps (long story)
         The learning of basic plate armour techniques
         1 titanium swimsuit (money, time, and health willing, which they 
probably won't be)

         June 21st is going to be my day of rest.  (If my husband even 
thinks about reading it before me, he may lose a hand.)  All told, the 
first four items on the list will take up the majority of my time.  Hey, 
I'm nothing if not ambitious. ;)

Sushi, whose House affiliation isn't obvious, no, not at all

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From mdemeran at hotmail.com  Sun Jan 19 14:41:14 2003
From: mdemeran at hotmail.com (Meg Demeranville <mdemeran@hotmail.com>)
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 14:41:14 -0000
Subject: Reminder - Weekly Chat
In-Reply-To: <b0dhci+e4bg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b0edea+c87u@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince 
Winston) <catlady at w...>" <catlady at w...> wrote:
> If I'm not in chat tomorrow  (today to Europe and Eastern Time)  it 
> is because something seems to have gone  wrong  with the battteries 
> of my laptop. I kicked Tim off HIS computer to write this, but you 
> can tell how much trouble I have typing on its slowand resistant 
> keyboard. Not suitable for chat-speed.

Meg quickly hands over her spare laptop battery and wall adaptor, 
anything to get Rita back into chat. 

Here's hoping that everything resolves itself.

Meg




From tahewitt at yahoo.com  Sun Jan 19 19:00:33 2003
From: tahewitt at yahoo.com (Tyler Hewitt)
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 11:00:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Digest Number 902
In-Reply-To: <1042970940.2351.7723.m6@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20030119190033.63492.qmail@web14202.mail.yahoo.com>



This morning I was thinking about OoP (well...aren't
we all?...) and 
wondering who will be the one who's going to die. 
Though I have my 
money on 
Hagrid, I started wondering, maybe it's going to be
Ron.  Oh no!  That 
would 
be awful.  He has his whole life ahead of him!  It
would totally crush 
Harry!  Not Ron!  I can handle Hagrid, even
Dumbledore, but not Ron!  
And 
then I literally started having a minor anxiety attack
about the whole 
thing 
before I caught myself...

*Please*, somebody out there tell me that I haven't
gone off the deep 
end.  
Tell me that I'm not the only one who has bonded with
the characters in 
these books so strongly that it would cause me to
start reacting in 
such an 
irrational way.



You're not the only one. My sister and I both love Ron
Weasley (he's our favorite charecter in the books) and
have both felt anxiety at the prospect of his dying in
OoP .

Tyler


__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
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From ZaraLyon at aol.com  Sun Jan 19 22:20:00 2003
From: ZaraLyon at aol.com (aurigae_prime <ZaraLyon@aol.com>)
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 22:20:00 -0000
Subject: Does anyone else remember this article?
Message-ID: <b0f8ag+3pjf@eGroups.com>

I believe the BBC site had an article around the time of the CoS film 
release in which JKR said that OoP was to be a calm-before-the-storm, 
school-centered sort of story. Unfortunately, I can't seem to find 
this article again. Was I dreaming? Did anyone else see this? If so, 
what might it mean for our speculative purposes?


Rhiannon




From heidit at netbox.com  Sun Jan 19 21:33:38 2003
From: heidit at netbox.com (Heidi Tandy)
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 17:33:38 -0400
Subject: I'm at the golden globes right now
Message-ID: <200301200039.h0K0dJsJ016329@BlackBerry.NET>

Well, not actualy at, but at the lobby bar for. We're star-gawking, in that tickytacky way I've always sworn never to so. I mean, I've gone back stage at u2, Springsteen and Corey Hart. This shouldn't faze me. 

So far, we've seen:
Matt leBlanc
The guy from sportsnight who isn't Josh Charles
Jamie Lee Curtis 
Ray Liotta
Bono
Robin Williams (I think)
Alec Baldwin
Josh Brolin (if sean astin is here, it'll be a Goonies-fest)
Ethan Hawke and I think uma Turman
And yes, sean astin is here
Debra Messing
Bradley Whitford in v cool glasses 
Donald Sutherland
Martin Sheen
Elton John and cute boyfriend
John Spencer, who owes my sister a garage opener
Nicole Kidman with Jude Law
Sigourney Weaver



You know, y'all can probably see the list and interviews on e! or nbc or elsewhere - I'll post again if I actually meet anyone. 


Heidi, hobbit-stalking



From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Mon Jan 20 00:48:07 2003
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius <coriolan@worldnet.att.net>)
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 00:48:07 -0000
Subject: Serious!Question
Message-ID: <b0fh08+j8ou@eGroups.com>

Who introduced the practice of inserting an exclamation mark between 
the adjective and noun (Stoned!Harry, etc) in theoretical discussions 
on the main list?

  - CMC




From heidit at netbox.com  Sun Jan 19 21:50:44 2003
From: heidit at netbox.com (Heidi Tandy)
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 17:50:44 -0400
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Serious!Question
Message-ID: <200301200056.h0K0uKsF023510@BlackBerry.NET>

It's a practise the fandom adopted from anime. The exclamation point means "one who is", pretty much, and if you pronounce it, it's pronounced "bang".  
-----Original Message-----
From: "Caius Marcius <coriolan at worldnet.att.net>" <coriolan at worldnet.att.net>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 00:48:07 
To:HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Serious!Question

Real-To:  "Caius Marcius <coriolan at worldnet.att.net>" <coriolan at worldnet.att.net>

Who introduced the practice of inserting an exclamation mark between 
the adjective and noun (Stoned!Harry, etc) in theoretical discussions 
on the main list?

  - CMC


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From ilovelucius at yahoo.com  Mon Jan 20 01:14:49 2003
From: ilovelucius at yahoo.com (Robin Van Dusen)
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 17:14:49 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] OOP release Borders Bookstore
In-Reply-To: <1042979677.748.35972.m12@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20030120011449.26201.qmail@web41415.mail.yahoo.com>


I scanned recent posts, but didn't notice anyone mention. So I wanted to let anyone know that has a Borders bookstore near them that Borders is pre-ordering OOP at 40% off retail price. Ready for pick-up 12:00 midnight 21 June. I checked Amazon and they wouldn't ship until the 23rd to me. Can't wait that long personally.
I have my copy ordered! :-) 
Hoping you get your copies early and at the best price!
Love,  Robin V. 
 



---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From jfaulkne at sas.upenn.edu  Mon Jan 20 01:28:27 2003
From: jfaulkne at sas.upenn.edu (Jen Faulkner)
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 20:28:27 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Serious!Question
In-Reply-To: <200301200056.h0K0uKsF023510@BlackBerry.NET>
References: <200301200056.h0K0uKsF023510@BlackBerry.NET>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.51.0301192014450.22068@mail2.sas.upenn.edu>

On Sun, 19 Jan 2003, Heidi Tandy wrote:

> It's a practise the fandom adopted from anime. The exclamation point
> means "one who is", pretty much, and if you pronounce it, it's
> pronounced "bang".

I don't know for certain, but I'd be very surprised if this practice had
been adopted from anime -- the bang (exclamation point) was used in UUCP
email adresses, where the bangs separated parts of the path:
machine1!machine2!machine3...  That's predating any use in anime fandom,
I'd think.

I have no idea at what point it was first used as a naming convention in
particular on the main list, but I've seen it since 1995 or so in fandom
in general.

--jen :)

* * * * * *
Jen's HP fics:
http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~jfaulkne/fan/hp.html (URL change!!)
Snapeslash listmom: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/snapeslash
Yes, I *am* the Deictrix.



From catlady at wicca.net  Mon Jan 20 02:11:37 2003
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston) <catlady@wicca.net>)
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 02:11:37 -0000
Subject: Not-evil!Lupin/Slytherin Hermione/ Wizarding JObs/ Fanficmess 
Message-ID: <b0flsp+65ss@eGroups.com>

Three replies moved from the main list, followed by fanfic ish 
thoughts

Maria Kirilenko wrote:

<< Does that sound plausible? It doesn't to me. I'm sorry, but I 
can't see Remus Lupin saying "C'mon, guys, it hurts so much! Do break 
the law! it's not as important as helping me bear my pain! And you 
could have so much fun in the process!" >>

I agree with you that it doesn't sound plausible at all, but someone 
could argue that Lupin's mildness is an act  he is putting on just 
while teaching at Hogwarts or all his life since he learned how to  
act that role. I was shocked when the movie made me realize just HOW 
Slytherin-ish Hermione was acting in that scene.   

Maria Kirilenko wrote:

<< My father said recently that wizards don't have very many 
employment options - namely, they can only work in the MoM. We, of 
course, know that's not true - they can also work in Hogwarts, in 
shops, on the Knight Bus and Hogwarts Express. But that's still 
very little! So... any ideas for where else they can work *to earn 
money*? >>

Many people have already answered this question, but I still want to 
talk about some of the businesses I have invented.

In MY Potterverse, the professional Quidditch teams run Quidditch 
camps for the 12 to 17 year olds who want to improve their play 
during the summer holiday. The Chudley Cannons have not had great 
success with theirs, so they decided to switch to a summer Quidditch 
camp for the 5 to 11 year olds. One of Charlie's friends from 
Gryffindor Quidditch is working in the Cannons' business office, 
giving Ron and Ginny a "in" for summer jobs between GoF and OotP -- 
Ron as "counsellor" (what do you call it in UK?) for eight (a team 
and one reserve) 8 year olds and Ginny as a cook in the meals tent, 
where she wrote the song "We are Fake House Elves" and smacked down 
wizards four times her age who ogled her.

Back in the 19th century, the Brewer sisters, Wilhelmina and 
Alexandra (Mrs John Joy and Mrs Erasmus Comfort) started selling a 
hair potion from an old family recipe. Demand grew --  they added 
more 'health and beauty' potions -- demand grew more -- they ended 
up with a large business named Comfort & Joy -- a factory out in the 
country where employees brew potions from recipes, and three retail 
shops: the original one at the factory, an old Victorian one in 
Diagon Alley, and a new faux-Victorian one in Hogsmeade. Brewer 
Comfort married Emily Joy and their son Brewer Joy Comfort is now 
President of Comfort & Joy. Pansy and Draco spend a ton of money on 
their Spot Remover Potion (anti-acne), Sunscreen, and Slimming 
Solution. 

Pansy Parkinson's late grandfather (Why is it "gaffer" rather than 
"graffer"?) started as a tinker, mending enchanted pots and pans in 
a rented shed in Hogsmeade. He married a witch who worked in a 
robemaker's shop. With a loan from his wife's family, he began making 
and selling his own enchanted pots and pans. The wife talked them up 
to her customers, enough sold to repay the loan and expand the 
business to additional kinds of enchanted kitchenware. Nowdays it is 
named Kitchen Witchery, large and properous, ran by Pansy's Aunt 
Provvy (short for Providence), selling to wizarding retailers and 
wizarding restaurants and hotels... Provvy never married, has no 
children, wants Pansy to learn the business and inherit it from her. 
Pansy thinks it's boring.     

Pansy's father, "Prospero", much younger than Provvy, wanted to go 
into the music biz. Started with a small bookstore/cafe that had live 
concerts, became a small-time promoter, bought a larger club, married 
a classical pianist who was playing with a band he booked, took his 
inheritance in cash rather than a share of Kitchen Witchery, now owns 
and runs THE most fashionable nightclub (named The Dump) where adult 
Malfoys and Fudges show up with their adulterous lovers to mingle 
with (lead singer of The Weird Sisters) and (MVP of the latest 
England-Scotland match). During the Voldemort Reign of Terror, he 
reckoned that allowing his nightclub to be used as a Death Eater 
secret meeting place was better than having his nightclub blasted to 
bits.  After the V RoT, he added an exclusive beach resort (named 
Wizarding Beach Resort), on a Unplottable Island within Floo distance 
of Diagon Alley, magically equipped with perfect warm sunshine year 
around, lush tropical plants, jewel sand beaches. Less magically 
equipped with attractive young barmaids and cabana boys. Pansy does 
not like the way her father has to kiss up to rich, aristocratic 
customers and thinks one benefit of becoming Mrs. Malfoy of the Manor 
is that those snobs would have to kiss up to her.           
 
Steve bboy_mn wrote:

<< Fruit and sugar, since their production in the English climate is 
limited, have to be imported. >>

Well, maybe not, because of magic. Fruit could be grown in orchards 
enchanted to have the right climate year-round -- I wonder if the 
spots on Scilly Isles (irresistably pronounced Silly Isless)  and 
Ireland where tropical gardens are now planted thanks to the Gulf 
Stream are connected in some way to wizards? Could sugar be produced 
by Transfiguring salt?

Help me with a wizarding alphabet quilt to hang on the nursery wall:

A is for Apple
B is for Broomstick
C is for Cauldron
D is for Dragon
E is for Eagle
F is for Fireplace (pictured Fireplace has green flames for Floo)
G is for Glove (pictured Glove is dragonhide)
H is for Hat (pictured Hat is stereotype witchy pointy hat)
I is for Invisible (no picture)
J
K is for Knut 
L is for Lantern
M is for Moon
N 
O is for Owl (pictured Owl is carrying a letter)
P is for Parchment
Q is for Quaffle
R is for Robe
S is for Sword
T 
U is for Umbrella
V is for Vampire
W is for Wand
X
Y
Z is for  Zebra (the horsie not the street crossing) 




From catlady at wicca.net  Mon Jan 20 04:04:55 2003
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston) <catlady@wicca.net>)
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 04:04:55 -0000
Subject: MAGIC DISHWASHER Fanfic-ness
Message-ID: <b0fsh7+74m2@eGroups.com>

T is for Transfiguration (picture of a teapot being turned into a 
tortoise)
T is for Telescope (thank you Melody)
T is for Time Turner (thanks Meg)
Y is for Yellow (Meg) 
N is for Nine and Three-Quarters (Meg) Newspaper (Melody)

When last I explained CHOP on the main list (see below), I realised 
that it works with something like MAGIC DISHWASHER -- it wouldn't be 
worth Dumbledore's life just for Snape to spy on V to report to a 
leaderless "old gang", but it could be worth it for Snape to lead 
(trick) V into the rare position where he can be killed by Harry. 
That depends on Dumbledore having figured out, and explained to 
Snape, what that rare position is --  like MAGIC DISHWASHER.

If there is need for communication between the two sides, Remus could 
be the new double agent, claiming that he was going to the Dark Side 
because of being a dark creature. 

Imagine all that angst! Harry and Sirius will be certain that Snape 
is *sincerely* Dark, and suspect that Remus is as well ... Snape 
forced to depend on Remus whom he hates ...  

IMHO Trelawney's first prophecy was delivered to James and Sirius. 
She put her hands on James and said something like "only this man's 
son can destroy the Dark Lord." Shocked by her blank eyes and alien 
vvoice, they told Dumbldore. He told them not to tell anyone (if the 
prophecy had been widely known, it would have been in those history 
books that Hermione read) but James told Lily and Peter, and Sirius 
told Remus. Peter told the Dark Lord, who was certain that it meant 
Harry because of the correlation with the other prophecy he had, 
about the wizard of special power to be born on Lammas of 1980. This 
is why V was so  determined to kill the Potters promptly. This is why 
Sirius suspected Remus -- he didn't know that Peter knew. Dumbldeore 
called this prophecy accurate because it had already come true, when 
Harry disembodied V.  

What makes Harry (and not some other son of James) so special -- 
possibly able to kill the immortal V -- is that magic V gave him with 
the failed Death Curse. Sharing the same magic, their lives are 
entwined. (I love self-fulfilling prophecies in stories.) Dumbledore 
suspected it when he rescued baby Harry, and confirmed it by research 
in the next few years...  For some reason, the need to raise Harry to 
be a hero led Dumbledore to leave himwith Dursleys even after finding 
out how abusive they were, instead of taaking him to live at 
Hogwarts, which would also be safe, protection of Hogwarts as good 
as protection of living with relatives under ancient magic, but would 
lead him to swelled head, or at least to absorbing the common 
prejudicces  of wizards... he either did some magic, or knew that 
Lily had done some magic (as I believe) to give Harry a loving adult 
image to comfort him from Dursleys and teach him right from wrong ... 
maybe in dreams .... 

.... the shared blood makes them that much more intertwined, 
therefore the gleam, but Harry will die along with V, thus Dumbledore
looking very old and tired. Dumbledore HAD NOT PLANNED the use of 
Harry's blood, or he wouldn't have reacted so strongly to hearing of 
it. Go on, persuade me that Dumbledore, alarmed by  Quirrelmort's 
attack on the Stone, deiberately set up V's opportunity to re-embody 
in a MORTAL way ...  does Magic Dishwasher believe that he sent 
Bertha to V, which would have been outright murder of Bertha?

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston) 
<catlady at w...>" <catlady at w...> wrote:
> 
> CHOP. That's the acronym for Cranium of Headmaster On a Platter, 
> which is the theory recently proposed, that Dumbledore and Snape
> long ago agreed on a plan in which Snape will persuade Voldemort 
> that his loyalty is to Voldemort, not Dumbledore, by 'giving 
> Voldemort Dumbledore's head on a platter'. The beheading is not 
> necessarily literal; I think it more likely that Snape will bring
> Dumbledore to Voldemort alive but under the Full-Body-Bind, so 
> Voldemort can gloat over him before killing him. Dumbledore is cool
> with this scheme (he thought it up), as he is old and tired and 
> eager to go on to 'the next great adventure', but Snape is NOT cool
> with it. Dumbledore is Snape's father-figure and apparently the
> only person he loves and Snape does not want Dumbledore to die at
> all and leave him, but even less does he want Dumbledore to die at
> his hands. It got worse when a thing in Elkins's dissertation on
> the Bartemii gave me the horrible realization that Voldemort will 
> require Snape to *prove* his loyalty to Voldemort by seriously 
> torturing Dumbledore as Voldemort watches. I suppose Voldemort 
> demands only efficiency of his torturers (sadistic glee is not 
> *required*), but that requires one Hell of an acting performance
>  from Snape, to conceal the tears in his eyes...





From rvotaw at i-55.com  Mon Jan 20 04:27:14 2003
From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw)
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 22:27:14 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Age suitability of canon
References: <b0c1lu+dkjo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <008801c2c03c$35c9bee0$14a0cdd1@RVotaw>

Melpomene wrote:

> And that's funny because I remember one--Time Magazine upon release 
> of GoF where JKR herself was quoted as saying she would NOT ALLOW her 
> daughter to read the books at her (at the time) age.

And Rhiannon wrote:

> And I'd like to point out that, although JKR may feel that the books were 
> not appropriate for her own daughter, that doesn't mean that they are 
> inappropriate for all children of that age. IMO, no one knows what's 
> best for a child like the parents *of that child* (for clarification, 
> I'm not referring to abusive or otherwise unfit parents, I am 
> referring to the run-of-the-mill parent). 

Okay, this is interesting.  I have two quotes here (that I can put my hands on, I've read others but don't have them here at the moment) where JKR refers to her daughter, at seven, reading Goblet of Fire.  First the CBC interview:

Question: "Is this book as suitable for the six-and seven-year-old who loved Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone?"

JKR's answer: "It depends on the kid, but I have to say that from the word 'go', I have never said these books were . . . you see, I knew what was coming.  So I have proud mothers saying to me 'He's six and he loves them,' and I'm thinking, I personally wouldn't have said 'go for it' with a six-year-old.  I personally wouldn't, because I knew what was coming, I knew they would get darker.  The story is about a world that's getting darker.  So it depends on the child.  My daugher is coming up to seven.  She absolutely adores them.

Question: "Even this one?"

JKR: "She's not all the way through it yet.

Now from the Yahooligans chat with JKR October 20, 2000 (a good bit after the interview quoted above), some of the questions are very repetitive, so here are several quotes:

Question: "What did your daughter, Jessica, think of the fourth book?  Was it too much for her to take?

JKR: "My daugher loved the fourth book.  She wasn't scared at all.  As long as Harry was okay she didn't seem to care.

Question: "Is your daughter now old enough for you to read the books to her?  If yes, is she enjoying them?

JKR: "Yes, she has now read all four books.  She loves them, which makes my job loads easier.  She is nagging me for book five already, you will be pleased to hear.  'Get in your office and write!'"

And on another note, with the age issue:

Question: "Are you going to get more mature themes as your books age or are you going to keep it geared toward younger kids?"

JKR: "I think an eight or nine year old will be able to read all seven books.  That's my intention.  However, Harry is growing up, so obviously he will face certain issues an eight year old won't.  I don't think, however, that that will be uninteresting for an eight year old."

I am also absolutely convinced that I read an interview somewhere where JKR said she had wanted to read the graveyard scene of GoF to her daugher, but she wanted to read it on her own.  And did.  And was fine with it, because, after all, it wasn't Harry.

Richelle






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From rvotaw at i-55.com  Mon Jan 20 04:33:14 2003
From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw)
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 22:33:14 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Does anyone else remember this article?
References: <b0f8ag+3pjf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <008f01c2c03d$144cc9f0$14a0cdd1@RVotaw>

Rhiannon wrote:

> I believe the BBC site had an article around the time of the CoS film 
> release in which JKR said that OoP was to be a calm-before-the-storm, 
> school-centered sort of story. Unfortunately, I can't seem to find 
> this article again. Was I dreaming? Did anyone else see this? If so, 
> what might it mean for our speculative purposes?

I think I know the article you're refering to, the one I'm thinking of wasn't on BBC, but it was someone who claimed to work for Scholastic.  They claimed to have seen the script and described something like you said above, a beginning of evil, not much happening story, leading up to a darker book 6.  Also something about Neville being under the Imperious curse.  Anyway, they can't have been telling the truth, as the manuscript was still in JKR's hands at the time.  

Richelle


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From nethilia at yahoo.com  Mon Jan 20 05:19:14 2003
From: nethilia at yahoo.com (Nethilia)
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 21:19:14 -0800 (PST)
Subject: The Book: Maybe it's a good thing
In-Reply-To: <1042979677.748.35972.m12@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20030120051914.32108.qmail@web41101.mail.yahoo.com>

>Heidi wrote:

>What does the not-quite-six-month wait mean for you?

Ooo...I'll include my list. 

2 half birthdays (me and my boyfriend)
1 mom's birthday
1 brother in law's birthday
1 little sister's birthday
5 classes to finish and pass
7 Japanese Tests to take
2 anime/sci fi conventions to attend and work
Unknown amounts of My Little Ponies
purchased/customised/cleaned to distract me from HP 
1 High school graduation to attend 
5 more times of that time of the month (>=P) 
1/2 trip to Denver (I'll be there when I pick up the
book) 
1 case of moving out of the dorm
5+ original novels worked on
at least 3 chapters of HP fanfic worked on
1 rereading of the first 4 books (mebbe more) 
1 cold gotten over (soon!) 
3 performances of the Vagina Monologues
14 anime meetings
14+ sci-fi club meetings
7+ sci-fi "occifer" meetings
14+ pagan association meetings
4 webpage updates
Countless pages of artwork drawn
3 birthcharts analysed
1 game of Pokemon Sapphire purchased and played

That's all I can think of for the moment.

--Neth

=====
http://www.cepheid.org/~marshmallow
Spenecial*com. Two girls. One Website. Total Chaos.

What kinda sacrifice involves pudding? ~ Andy, a close friend

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From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Mon Jan 20 05:35:37 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve <bboy_mn@yahoo.com>)
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 05:35:37 -0000
Subject: Wizarding Jobs/ Fanficmess/A bit of nonsense.
In-Reply-To: <b0flsp+65ss@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b0g1r9+od4l@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)
<catlady at w...>" <catlady at w...> wrote:

> ...BNE... ...Big Nasty Edit...
          
>  
> Steve bboy_mn wrote:
> 
> << Fruit and sugar, since their production in the English climate is 
> limited, have to be imported. >>
> - - - - - - - - - -

> Catlady:
> Well, maybe not, because of magic. Fruit could be grown in orchards 
> enchanted to have the right climate year-round -- I wonder if the 
> spots on Scilly Isles (irresistably pronounced Silly Isless)  and 
> Ireland where tropical gardens are now planted thanks to the Gulf 
> Stream are connected in some way to wizards? Could sugar be produced 
> by Transfiguring salt?
> - - - - - - - - - - -

bboy_mn:

First I just noticed your name 'Rita Prince Winston'; that has a nice
ring to it. 'Rita Winston', do you mind it I use that in a story for a
minor character?

Back on track. Actually, I lied about the suger to make my point. We
grow suger here in Minnesota, where it is currently 11?F. Most common
sugar, especially bulk commercial sugar is grow in the form of beets.
Yes, that's right; nasty beets, except these are called Sugar Beets;
ugly things. 

I'm not sure I can go along with you on the weather modification.
Perhaps on your enchanted tropical island in the North Atlantic, where
it is very isolated, but I don't think you can get away with messing
with the weather on the island of Britain. 

However, you could genetically alter plant with the help of magic to
make them more resistant to cold. I'm sure that takes a skilled
farm-wizard. Plus you could do barrier and greenhouse charms to trap
heat and extent the growing season. Perhaps even use warming charms
inside the magic greenhouse barrier. Then, of course, for commercial
use (pies, apples sauce, etc...), you engorge the apples to the size
of watermelons, then so the trees can hold them without breaking, you
use a levitation charms.  Who knew wizard farming could be so complex?

Next, enchanted beaches... HEY! I've got one too. Merlin Beach... has
a nice ring. Just south of Torquay and Torquay Bay (Torbay), the
British Riviera, where the water and air are already warm. You walk
through a narrow enchanted raven, which muggles can't see of course,
which opens onto a vast expanse of wide sunny sandy beach in wizard's
space. Of course, the wizard's beach in the south of France is much
nicer that the British beach. Wonderful enchanted beaches on the
Island of Sardinia too.

Business and Inventions-
I came up with the idea of combining the best of Muggle electronics
with the most advanced enchantments to create the programmable
Portpager; portkey and pager in one; range 500km or 300mi. You can go
from London to Paris or Amsterdam, but you can't go from London to
Edinburgh. 

Twenty five preset location for those places you most frequently
travel to. Also, to get to Howarts, since it is outside of the range,
you use two consecutive presets, one takes you near Edinburgh, the
next one takes you to Hogwarts. The latest models can be set to 'step'
through a sequence of presets, allow you to get to Hogwarts in what
appears to be one push of a button. It's great, no more enchanting
manky old boots, and bits of junk. No more messy Floo powder and sooty
fireplaces. Weasley Enterprises in going to make a fortune on these.
Many other handy feature, too numerous to mention. Very complex
magical manufacturing involved in making a product like that. You need
lots of skilled wizards and witches.

Of course, there are the Ron Weasley - World Wizards Chess Champion
Chess Sets (Standard, Deluxe, Premium, and Custom). They are modeled
after the Philosopher's Stone Chess Set (McGonagall gets a royalty)
and they are enchanted to replay the Voldemort game, or you can play
against the board the way Ron did (took a bit of witchery for Hermione
and McGonagall to come up with an enchantment that could be used for
commercial chess sets; both McGonagall and Hermione get a royalty for
that), or you can use it like a standard wizard's chess set. Of
course, each board is autographed by Harry, Ron, Hermione, and
McGonagall (Hermione and McGonagall also get additional royalties for
that). They're making a fortune of these boards. Most popular chess
set ever sold to the wizard world. You need very skill craftwizards to
 make these on a commerical scale.

Speaking of farming, because Harry has a fondness for lemons (at least
the way I write him), Neville has painstakingly crossbread lemons, and
lime with a few characteristics of oranges to make it sweeter, then
genetically crossbred it so it would grow in a cold climate. He named
it the Potter Limon. 

Of course, Neville's rare herb and plant farm is doing exceptionally
well. 

Then there are the less magical ginger beer, ginger cream ice cream,
gin, giant broomsticks (for giants) that Harry designed in conjuction
with Comet Broom company, and then Weasley Enterprise's collaborated
with Comet Brooms on the flying boards that Harry invented. These are
the magic kid's equivalent to skateboards. There going to make a
fortune with these too.

Unresolved-
Harry has a ginger beer company (Harry Potter's Wizard's Brew). That's
easy enough, but how do you deal with the magical logistics of a
business like that? Harry has large crates of ginger imported from
China and Jamaica. The question is, how do wizards transport something
that big? Truck brooms? Trans-Atlantic cargo brooms? Is it likely that
there is a trans-Atlantic and trans-continental charm for moving
cargo? The best I've come up with is that the elves who run the
factory, have a network of house-elves who use elfin magic to get it
across the Atlantic. That's pretty weak, but it was the best I could
do. Things like this are the hazards you run into when you dip your
pen in the magical ink of fiction.

Point?
The wizard world and it's economy are very large and complex;
countless jobs for witches and wizards to do. And while the wizard
world my be stuck in it's old ways, you can't stop innovation. The
number of products and producers are growing all the time. Say, did I
mention Weasley Enterprises (of which Harry, thanks to G1,000 very
early on, is the largest shareholder) line of personal care products?
Those guys are soooo rich, you wouldn't believe it.

Sorry for the long ramble, but it was a bit of fun.

As for your alphabet... I did the best I could. I think we need to
come up with something better tha Zebra, but I don't know what. I'll
think about that.

bboy_mn

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

> Catlady: 
> Help me with a wizarding alphabet quilt to hang on the nursery wall:
> 
> A is for Apple
> B is for Broomstick
> C is for Cauldron
> D is for Dragon
> E is for Eagle
> F is for Fireplace (pictured Fireplace has green flames for Floo)
> G is for Glove (pictured Glove is dragonhide)
> H is for Hat -- how about - haunt --
(pictured Hat is stereotype witchy pointy hat)
> I is for Invisible (no picture)
> J -- Juju -- at type of West African fetish/amulet magic.
> K is for Knut 
> L is for Lantern
> M is for Moon
> N -- is for night --
> O is for Owl (pictured Owl is carrying a letter)
> P is for Parchment
> Q is for Quaffle
> R is for Robe
> S is for Sword
> T -- transfigure --
> U is for Umbrella
> V is for Vampire or --  voodoo --
> W is for Wand
> X -- Xuthus - Greek Mythology. The ancestor of the Ionian Greeks. --
> Y -- Yeti - abominable snowman -- or -- Yggdrasil - The great ash
tree that holds together earth, heaven, and hell by its roots and
branches in Norse mythology. --
> Z is for  Zebra (the horsie not the street crossing)






From urbana at charter.net  Mon Jan 20 06:20:36 2003
From: urbana at charter.net (Anne <urbana@charter.net>)
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 06:20:36 -0000
Subject: Just back from LOTR (finally!)
Message-ID: <b0g4fk+hi77@eGroups.com>

My DH and I just got back from LOTR-TTT (yes, I know we're over a 
month late seeing it ... we've had a serious baby-sitter shortage 
recently and finally found a new sitter :-) Just a few comments:

Legolas to Aragorn at Helm's Deep: "You're late... and you look 
terrible" (holy S**T, I saw that online somewhere and thought it was 
a put-on. So when I heard him say that, I laughed out loud :-)

Aragorn -- Seriously, seriously *Siriusly* DEAD-SEXY :D yeah, I know, 
Gary Oldman's got the part, but damn!! That Viggo Mortenson is 
FIIIINE. <fans self>

Gandalf the White -- KICKS EXTREME BUTT!! Not much screen time, but 
Sir Ian makes the most of what he's got. (I still think he'd make an 
awesome Dumbledore...)

Gimli - great comic relief. 

The Ents -- hmmmm.... very very tall.... and very verrrrry sloooow... 
great bowlers, though...

Gollum/Smeagol... wow... creepy, disturbing, pathetic, heart-
rending ... I'm still processing that one.

The Uruk'Hai -- about the nastiest crypto-humanoids I've ever seen. 
And just as ugly as in FOTR.

Samwise Gamgee -- really earning his nickname, Samwise the Brave.

And last but not least, Frodo, who seemed like he was on an acid trip 
at least during the second half of the movie. Poor kid, that ring is 
really burning a hole in his brain :-( 

Okay, NOW I can go back and read all those LOTR posts from before 
Christmas :-)

Anne U
(wondering if the Dementors are descended from the Ring Wraiths...)








From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com  Mon Jan 20 06:27:43 2003
From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 01:27:43 EST
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Just back from LOTR (finally!)
Message-ID: <9.7bc1682.2b5cf0df@aol.com>

I agree with everything you've said. ^^ I really want to see the movie again 
now. Don't worry, you weren't the only one who saw it late XXP  

I can do a dead on impression of Gollum/Smeagol, or so I'm told. heh-My 
girlfriend is a HUGE LoTR fan, so now I've taken to calling her 'My 
prrreecccciiiiouusssss..." 

^_^ 

~Cassie~ 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk  Mon Jan 20 06:26:03 2003
From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte)
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 06:26:03 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Just back from LOTR (finally!)
References: <b0g4fk+hi77@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3E2B967B.000001.41887@monica>

Personally i thought the best bit was when they panned along the line of
warrioes at Helms Deep and Gimli was shorter than the wall they were stood
behind. The guy is a rugged, masculine dwarf with a fondness for the deep
places of the earth - I never thought I'd feel for him so much but damn! I
have both been there and done that (without the rampaging army obviously). A
fondness for large, fortified medieval buildings does not go well with being
below acerage height.

K



From abigailnus at yahoo.com  Mon Jan 20 07:47:16 2003
From: abigailnus at yahoo.com (abigailnus <abigailnus@yahoo.com>)
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 07:47:16 -0000
Subject: Serious!Question
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.51.0301192014450.22068@mail2.sas.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <b0g9i4+aei5@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Jen Faulkner <jfaulkne at s...> wrote:
> On Sun, 19 Jan 2003, Heidi Tandy wrote:
> 
> > It's a practise the fandom adopted from anime. The exclamation point
> > means "one who is", pretty much, and if you pronounce it, it's
> > pronounced "bang".

I have no idea if this is true, but I always assumed the practice came 
from Barbies and other dolls.  You know, Malibu!Barbie, Nurse!Barbie, 
and so on.

Or it could just be my fevered imagination.  Like Heidi, I've been seeing 
the ! since the mid-90s, mostly in X-Files fandom.

Abigail





From corsa808 at yahoo.com  Mon Jan 20 08:33:24 2003
From: corsa808 at yahoo.com (infiniT <corsa808@yahoo.com>)
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 08:33:24 -0000
Subject: Pre-Ordering From Amazon
In-Reply-To: <b04pj8+e4cv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b0gc8k+v7vq@eGroups.com>

**huge gasp**

This is horrible!!!!

This is the response I get from Amazon (US), having pre-ordered 
yesterday! 

"Shipping estimate: September 22, 2003 - January 20, 2004 
Delivery estimate: September 25, 2003 - January 26, 2004 "

What?!?!?! 

For those of you who have bookstore/pre-ordering/Amazon/etc. 
experience, can anyone tell me why I might get this kind of date? I 
know I got a bit behind in my emails, but to have to wait *that* long 
for the book, should that be right? Is it a first-come-first-served 
kind of thing, and so many people got in before me so that's why I'm 
getting this kind of date? 
I'm checking with Borders and B/N tomorrow to see if I can get a 
better answer. I guess I'll wait in line!

t 




From macloudt at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Jan 20 09:43:56 2003
From: macloudt at yahoo.co.uk (Mary Ann <macloudt@yahoo.co.uk>)
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 09:43:56 -0000
Subject: Birthday Greetings!
Message-ID: <b0ggcs+mktd@eGroups.com>

:::::tosses confetti and streamers around the room, feeling 
reasonably confident that it's still the 20th in Australia <g>:::::

Yes, we have an Aussie birthday today...Shaun Hately!  Greetings can 
be sent to the List or to drednort at alphalink.com.au

Have a brilliant day, Shaun, and I hope there are some groovy HP 
goodies in your present pile!

Mary Ann
(TBE)




From sushi at societyhappens.com  Mon Jan 20 10:18:11 2003
From: sushi at societyhappens.com (Sushi)
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 04:18:11 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Serious!Question
In-Reply-To: <b0g9i4+aei5@eGroups.com>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.51.0301192014450.22068@mail2.sas.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030120040637.02671a00@mail.societyhappens.com>


>I have no idea if this is true, but I always assumed the practice came
>from Barbies and other dolls.  You know, Malibu!Barbie, Nurse!Barbie,
>and so on.
>
>Or it could just be my fevered imagination.  Like Heidi, I've been seeing
>the ! since the mid-90s, mostly in X-Files fandom.
>
>Abigail

         Don't take this as dead fact, but as a staunch fourth-generation 
geek I just need to put forward this theory:

         The ! command, indeed known as a bang, comes from Unix programming 
and function.  It is used, I believe, to indicate certain attributes given 
to a command line.  (I *think* that's correct.  Unix/LINUX is more of my 
hubby's area, I grew up with DOS and a custom OS my dad wrote for use in 
power plants.)  Given that fandom and geekdom have for years had rabid 
crossover points, it's inevitable that terminology should slip between the 
two.  (For instance, there is an archaic Unix command called "grok", from 
Heinlein's _Stranger In A Strange Land_.  I think it has to do with 
accessing information.)  With the more or less general availability of 
Internet access that began in the mid to late 1980s, the two meshed even 
further.  Theory goes that, one day, someone wrote something like 
Evil!Spock instead of "evil Spock like in 'Mirror, Mirror'" and it spread 
from there.  I would guess that it began in the late '80s, became a bit 
more prevalent in the mid '90s when fandoms gained a stronger hold with the 
influx of people to the 'Net, and by now is a permanent part of being an 
Internet fan.

         So, yeah.  There's my two bits.  Just callin' it like I see it.

Sushi


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From lupinesque at yahoo.com  Mon Jan 20 12:17:41 2003
From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z <lupinesque@yahoo.com>)
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 12:17:41 -0000
Subject: Just back from LOTR (finally!)
In-Reply-To: <b0g4fk+hi77@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b0gpd5+i3f7@eGroups.com>

Anne wrote:

> The Ents -- hmmmm.... very very tall.... and very verrrrry 
sloooow... 
> great bowlers, though...

Bowlers?

Hats?  Duckpins?  Cricket?

Amy Z




From heidit at netbox.com  Mon Jan 20 09:30:09 2003
From: heidit at netbox.com (Heidi Tandy)
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 05:30:09 -0400
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Pre-Ordering From Amazon
Message-ID: <200301201235.h0KCZq44028176@BlackBerry.NET>

Ask their help desk - looks like a computer glitch. 

You should get the same answer from borders.com, as they're run by amazon anyway. 

Heidi, who ordered hers from amazon in Feb, 2001 - the order is still pending. 
-----Original Message-----
From: "infiniT <corsa808 at yahoo.com>" <corsa808 at yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 08:33:24 
To:HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Pre-Ordering From Amazon

Real-To:  "infiniT <corsa808 at yahoo.com>" <corsa808 at yahoo.com>

**huge gasp**

This is horrible!!!!

This is the response I get from Amazon (US), having pre-ordered 
yesterday! 

"Shipping estimate: September 22, 2003 - January 20, 2004 
Delivery estimate: September 25, 2003 - January 26, 2004 "

What?!?!?! 

For those of you who have bookstore/pre-ordering/Amazon/etc. 
experience, can anyone tell me why I might get this kind of date? I 
know I got a bit behind in my emails, but to have to wait *that* long 
for the book, should that be right? Is it a first-come-first-served 
kind of thing, and so many people got in before me so that's why I'm 
getting this kind of date? 
I'm checking with Borders and B/N tomorrow to see if I can get a 
better answer. I guess I'll wait in line!

t 


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From foxmoth at qnet.com  Mon Jan 20 16:48:52 2003
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999 <foxmoth@qnet.com>)
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 16:48:52 -0000
Subject: FF: Re: Not-evil!Lupin/Slytherin Hermione
In-Reply-To: <b0flsp+65ss@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b0h99k+h162@eGroups.com>

> 
> Maria Kirilenko wrote:
> 
> << Does that sound plausible? It doesn't to me. I'm sorry, but I 
> can't see Remus Lupin saying "C'mon, guys, it hurts so much! 
Do break  the law! it's not as important as helping me bear my 
pain! And you  could have so much fun in the process!" >>

Rita:
> I agree with you that it doesn't sound plausible at all, but 
someone could argue that Lupin's mildness is an act  he is 
putting on just  while teaching at Hogwarts or all his life since he 
learned how to   act that role. <

Lupin doesn't have to be Hermione to pull it off. He just has to be 
Lupin. Like this:


 =========================
"Remus, what can we do to make your transformations easier?" 
asked James.

"There are certain ways," said Remus slowly, dropping his voice 
still further with a quick glance across the Gryffindor common 
room at the prefect. "It's highly advanced magic. Well beyond 
Ordinary Wizarding Levels. Of course, it would be difficult. And 
dangerous, very dangerous. We'd be breaking a number of 
school rules, I expect, and also some of the most important 
Wizarding World laws along the way - If you don't want to be 
involved, I'll more than understand-- "


"If, in a month or so, you feel like explaining, you will let us
know, won't you?" said Sirius irritably.
 

Remus looked into both their  faces, hesitated, then said,  "Well, 
all right....What you'd need to do is to get inside the Shrieking 
Shack at full moon but so that I wouldn't hurt you."
 

"But that's impossible," James said as Sirius laughed.
 

"No, it's not," said Remus. "The magic you'd need to learn is the 
Animagus transformation."
 

"What's that?" said Sirius and James together.
 

"McGonagall can do it--It's how she turns herself into a cat."
 

"Cool!" said James.
 

Remus smiled at his reaction. "An Animagus is a person who 
can transform into an animal at will. I don't claim to be an expert 
on the Animagus transformation, James,  quite the contrary. But 
if it works correctly, you'll change into animal form but keep your 
human mind. "


"How will that help you?" James asked.


"A werewolf is only dangerous to humans.  I wouldn't attack you. 
Some say that a werewolf's transformations become less 
painful when Animagi are with him. There are some reports that 
in animal form,  an Animagus can control a werewolf, even when 
humans are near. Although," Remus swallowed nervously, 
"those who have failed wouldn't be in a position to say."
 

"This Animagi stuff sounds a bit dodgy to me," said Sirius, 
frowning. "What if we were stuck in animal form forever?"
 

"Perhaps we should leave it," said Remus. "The Animagus 
charm is ridiculously advanced. I shouldn't have suggested it."


"Are you kidding?" James asked. "It sounds brilliant!  Where do 
we start?"


"I must warn you, many fully qualified wizards never master it. In 
fact, there have been only seven registered Animagi this century. 
We'd be unregistered, of course. If we're caught, you two will be 
expelled as well."


James looked indignant. "Come off it, Remus! You don't think 
we'd let you go on suffering like this alone?  We are your friends, 
you know." 


"Well," said Remus, who looked as if he were doing this against 
his better judgement, "First, we'll need to get into the Restricted 
Section..."
 

A little while after:
 

Sirius turned, speechless, to James, who had another worry.
 

"D'you realize we're never going to be able too hide this from 
Peter, Remus? All that fasting and chanting, while we're learning 
to summon our animals, and then all three of us gone from the 
dorm every full moon. I don't know if this is a good idea ......"


Remus shut the book with a sigh.


"Yes, of course I understand," he  said.


His  cheeks were pale and the circles under his  eyes were 
darker than usual. "I didn't expect you to go through with it.
In fact, I'd have been astounded if you had. "
 

"I never thought I'd see the day when I'd be persuading James to 
include Peter, " said Sirius. "All right, we'll let him in on it."
 

"How long will it take to master, anyway?" said James as 
Remus,looking happier, opened the book again.
 

"I'd say we'll  be ready in about two years, if Peter can manage it."


"Two years?" said Sirius. "We going to be fasting for two years? 
Maybe we shouldn't do this
" But Remus looked so  pale and
ill  that he added swiftly, "But it's the best plan we've got, so
full steam ahead, I say."
 =========================================

Pippin, who enjoyed writing this far too much





From Audra1976 at aol.com  Mon Jan 20 18:47:16 2003
From: Audra1976 at aol.com (Audra1976 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 13:47:16 EST
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] I'm at the golden globes right now
Message-ID: <7b.7aba2e0.2b5d9e34@aol.com>

In a message dated 1/19/03 7:40:44 PM, heidit at netbox.com writes:

<< Nicole Kidman with Jude Law >>

And she won Best Actress!  And she looked so fabulous!  I am so in love with 
her, which is weird because I am heterosexual normally.  I have to wait until 
Friday to see "The Hours."  I'm really looking forward to it.  And Jude Law 
was her date?  Nice work.  He's married though, isn't he?  If I recall, his 
wife's name is Sadie.  I took note of that because Jude and Sadie are both 
names from Beatles' songs.  Feh, first Ewan, now Jude, all the good ones for 
Nicole are taken.  I hope she's completely over that icky Tom Cruise.  

Hey, Nicole's Australian--not British exactly, she would still be eligible to 
act in a Harry Potter movie, wouldn't she?  She has young children, so she'd 
probably be interested.  I just can't think of which character she could 
play.  

Audra



From urbana at charter.net  Mon Jan 20 19:13:25 2003
From: urbana at charter.net (Anne <urbana@charter.net>)
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 19:13:25 -0000
Subject: Just back from LOTR (finally!)
In-Reply-To: <b0gpd5+i3f7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b0hhol+2moe@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Amy Z <lupinesque at y...>" 
<lupinesque at y...> wrote:
> Anne wrote:
> 
> > The Ents -- hmmmm.... very very tall.... and very verrrrry 
> sloooow... 
> > great bowlers, though...
> 
> Bowlers?
> 
> Hats?  Duckpins?  Cricket?

When they went to Isengard and started hurling those huge boulders at 
Saruman's legion, it just kind of looked like Ent-bowling to me :-) 
I also loved how they opened the dam and flooded the place. I'm 
sure Merry and Pippin were *very* happy they were up near Treebeard's 
head and not hanging around near his knees.

Anne U
(still thinking about Aragorn .... where's my fan?? ;-)





From urbana at charter.net  Mon Jan 20 19:21:46 2003
From: urbana at charter.net (Anne <urbana@charter.net>)
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 19:21:46 -0000
Subject: I'm at the golden globes right now
In-Reply-To: <7b.7aba2e0.2b5d9e34@aol.com>
Message-ID: <b0hi8a+uvgs@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Audra1976 at a... wrote:
> In a message dated 1/19/03 7:40:44 PM, heidit at n... writes:
> Hey, Nicole's Australian--not British exactly, she would still be 
eligible to 
> act in a Harry Potter movie, wouldn't she?  She has young children, 
so she'd 
> probably be interested.  I just can't think of which character she 
could 
> play.  


If they put a long, platinum-blonde wig on her and covered up her few 
little laugh-lines, she could play Fleur. Just a thought.

Anne U
(who thinks that if we start thinking up GoF casting *now*, maybe the 
casting director can start working on those actors' agents :-)





From jmmears at comcast.net  Mon Jan 20 21:25:13 2003
From: jmmears at comcast.net (serenadust <jmmears@comcast.net>)
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 21:25:13 -0000
Subject: Wizarding quilt (was Wizarding Jobs/ Fanficmess/A bit of nonsense.)
In-Reply-To: <b0g1r9+od4l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b0hpfp+k5mq@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Steve <bboy_mn at y...>" 
<bboy_mn at y...> wrote:

 As for your alphabet... I did the best I could. I think we need to
> come up with something better tha Zebra, but I don't know what. 
I'll
> think about that.

How about Z is for Zonkos Joke Shop? I don't know what the 
illustration would be (I don't want to think about dungbombs); maybe 
trick wands or Exploding Snap cards.

Jo Serenadust, who'd love to have a quilt like this


> > Catlady: 
> > Help me with a wizarding alphabet quilt to hang on the nursery 
wall:
> > 
> > A is for Apple
> > B is for Broomstick
> > C is for Cauldron
> > D is for Dragon
> > E is for Eagle
> > F is for Fireplace (pictured Fireplace has green flames for Floo)
> > G is for Glove (pictured Glove is dragonhide)
> > H is for Hat -- how about - haunt --
> (pictured Hat is stereotype witchy pointy hat)
> > I is for Invisible (no picture)
> > J -- Juju -- at type of West African fetish/amulet magic.
> > K is for Knut 
> > L is for Lantern
> > M is for Moon
> > N -- is for night --
> > O is for Owl (pictured Owl is carrying a letter)
> > P is for Parchment
> > Q is for Quaffle
> > R is for Robe
> > S is for Sword
> > T -- transfigure --
> > U is for Umbrella
> > V is for Vampire or --  voodoo --
> > W is for Wand
> > X -- Xuthus - Greek Mythology. The ancestor of the Ionian 
Greeks. --
> > Y -- Yeti - abominable snowman -- or -- Yggdrasil - The great ash
> tree that holds together earth, heaven, and hell by its roots and
> branches in Norse mythology. --
> > Z is for  Zebra (the horsie not the street crossing)




From jayemelle at earthlink.net  Mon Jan 20 23:32:00 2003
From: jayemelle at earthlink.net (tesseract197 <jayemelle@earthlink.net>)
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 23:32:00 -0000
Subject: Pre-Ordering From Amazon
In-Reply-To: <b0gc8k+v7vq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b0i0tg+8glk@eGroups.com>

Hmmm...*checks own order on Amazon.com*

Well, I placed my order late Friday night/early Saturday morning, and 
my order summary says the shipping estimate is June 28 and the 
delevery estimate (to NW Missouri) is July 3-9.  I thought June 28 
was a little late, considering they'll probably have their first 
stock in hand before or on the release date, but I figured it mught 
just be because I'm cheap and went for the "Free Super Saver 
Shipping," which takes longer.  But maybe the later you place your 
order, the longer you have to wait for them to ensure they have 
enough stock on hand to fill it.  How depressing--I hope I'm wrong 
and that's not what happened to you!  Good luck with other websites--
or maybe you should start sharpening your elbows to fight the crowds 
on June 21 :o)

Tess
*keeping fingers crossed that infiniT is the victim of an Amazon 
computer glitch*

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "infiniT <corsa808 at y...>" 
<corsa808 at y...> wrote:
> **huge gasp**
> 
> This is horrible!!!!
> 
> This is the response I get from Amazon (US), having pre-ordered 
> yesterday! 
> 
> "Shipping estimate: September 22, 2003 - January 20, 2004 
> Delivery estimate: September 25, 2003 - January 26, 2004 "
> 
> What?!?!?! 
> 
> For those of you who have bookstore/pre-ordering/Amazon/etc. 
> experience, can anyone tell me why I might get this kind of date? I 
> know I got a bit behind in my emails, but to have to wait *that* 
long 
> for the book, should that be right? Is it a first-come-first-served 
> kind of thing, and so many people got in before me so that's why 
I'm 
> getting this kind of date? 
> I'm checking with Borders and B/N tomorrow to see if I can get a 
> better answer. I guess I'll wait in line!
> 
> t




From catlady at wicca.net  Tue Jan 21 02:55:05 2003
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston) <catlady@wicca.net>)
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 02:55:05 -0000
Subject: Shaun  - Viggo -- Wizarding Businesses  - alphaquilt
Message-ID: <b0icq9+p1jn@eGroups.com>

Happy Birthday, Shaun! Your professional knowledge has been as useful 
to HPfGU and OT discussions as the way you keep calm and soothe 
potential flame wars.

Anne U wrote:

<< Aragorn -- Seriously, seriously *Siriusly* DEAD-SEXY :D yeah, I 
know, Gary Oldman's got the part, but damn!! That Viggo Mortenson is 
FIIIINE. <fans self> >>

I strongly agree, but last time I said so, someone scolded me 
against trying to draw parallels between HP characters and LOTR 
characters.... 

Steve bboy_mn wrote:

<< I came up with the idea of combining the best of Muggle 
electronics with the most advanced enchantments to create the 
programmable Portpager; portkey and pager in one; range 500km or 
300mi. You can go from London to Paris or Amsterdam, but you can't go 
from London to Edinburgh. >>

MADLY useful, altho' probably illegal to use in each country until 
that country's Ministry of Magic has inspected it and collected their 
bribe. HOWEVER, what about the presence of magic making electronics 
go haywire? Someone invented a magical analogy of the transistor -- 
printed circuit -- microcomputer chip?

<< Harry has large crates of ginger imported from China and Jamaica. 
The question is, how do wizards transport something that big? Truck 
brooms? Trans-Atlantic cargo brooms? >>

I suspect they use ships, as QTTA says wizards used ships to cross 
oceans until brooms became reliable enough. Magic may serve to make 
their ships bigger inside than out, as fast as jetliners, with total 
absence of seasickness ...  

Another possibility: I wonder if large objects (such as a Muggle 
shipping container of ginger) can be Transfigured or Charmed into 
something small enough and light enough that a Firebolt Express rider 
can stuff his/her pockets full of them, and Transfigure, Charm, or 
Finite Incantatem them back upon arrival. In a fic, I had Sirius  
shrink a *lavish* picnic basket small enough for him to carry in the 
watch pocket of his Levi's while flying the motorcycle, but I don't 
know if JKR would allow that.

<< J -- Juju -- at type of West African fetish/amulet magic.
V is for Vampire or -- voodoo -
X -- Xuthus - Greek Mythology. The ancestor of the Ionian Greeks. 
Y -- Yeti - abominable snowman -- or -- Yggdrasil - The great ash >>

Would a British wizarding (not Muggle) child know of Juju, voodoo, 
Xuthus, or Yggdrasil? They might know of Yeti, which is in FB, but 
I don't like to think that every little kid knows ALL the magical 
beasts before they're old enough to read FB. They probably do know  
vampire, but I really wish I could think of something less scarey for 
a nursery wall.




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Tue Jan 21 03:08:53 2003
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999 <foxmoth@qnet.com>)
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 03:08:53 -0000
Subject: - alphaquilt
In-Reply-To: <b0icq9+p1jn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b0idk5+ragm@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita 
Prince Winston) <catlady at w...>" <catlady at w...> wrote:

> I don't like to think that every little kid knows ALL the magical 
> beasts before they're old enough to read FB. They probably do 
know   vampire, but I really wish I could think of something less 
scarey for  a nursery wall.

The are plenty of vampires that have been de-fanged. Between 
Count Chocula cereal and The Count from Sesame Street (is he 
still around?) little kids probably don't even know vampires are 
*supposed* to be scary.

Pippin




From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk  Tue Jan 21 03:13:18 2003
From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte)
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 03:13:18 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: - alphaquilt
References: <b0idk5+ragm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3E2CBACE.000001.44885@monica>



-------Original Message-------

From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
Date: 21 January 2003 03:10:14
To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: - alphaquilt

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita 
Prince Winston) <catlady at w...>" <catlady at w...> wrote:

> I don't like to think that every little kid knows ALL the magical 
> beasts before they're old enough to read FB. They probably do 
know vampire, but I really wish I could think of something less 
scarey for a nursery wall.

The are plenty of vampires that have been de-fanged. Between 
Count Chocula cereal and The Count from Sesame Street (is he 
still around?) little kids probably don't even know vampires are 
*supposed* to be scary.

Pippin

Besides which the shop in Hogsmeade sells blood lollipops if I remember
correctly so we can assume that some vampires are an actual member of
society rather than total outcasts (like say werewolves).

They're probably all lawyers.

K



From heidit at netbox.com  Tue Jan 21 03:18:57 2003
From: heidit at netbox.com (Heidi Tandy)
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 23:18:57 -0400
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: - alphaquilt
Message-ID: <mailman.26.1576049042.5361.hpfgu-otchatter@archive.hpfgu.org>

K wrote:
**They're probably all lawyers.**

Well, at least you didn't say that "they're probably all the lawyers," which means you hold out hope that some of the lawyers aren't actually bloodsuckers, or perhaps that becoming undead isn't part of the admission to the Bar. 


Heidi, Esq. 



From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk  Tue Jan 21 03:30:26 2003
From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte)
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 03:30:26 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: - alphaquilt
References: <092460026031513PCOW028M@blueyonder.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3E2CBED2.000003.44885@monica>



-------Original Message-------

From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
Date: 21 January 2003 03:26:00
To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: - alphaquilt

K wrote:
**They're probably all lawyers.**

Well, at least you didn't say that "they're probably all the lawyers," which
means you hold out hope that some of the lawyers aren't actually
bloodsuckers, or perhaps that becoming undead isn't part of the admission to
the Bar. 


Heidi, Esq. 

I know better than to condemn all lawyers out of hand. I used to date a law
student so it wouldn't say much for my taste in men apart from anything else


Besides there are some advantages to undead lawyers - I mean when the
Malfoys say that such and such a law firm has been handling their affairs
for decades they could mean the same lawyer
Other than that though I have this image of a vampire bat hanging around
outside St Mungos offering to sue people for the patients. Ambulance chasing
probably becomes a whole lot easier if you have heightened senses for
finding blood :)

K



From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 21 05:39:52 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve <bboy_mn@yahoo.com>)
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 05:39:52 -0000
Subject: Wizarding Businesses  and more rambling.
In-Reply-To: <b0icq9+p1jn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b0imf8+3riv@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)
<catlady at w...>" <catlady at w...> wrote:
>
> ...edited...
> 
> Catlady quotes Steve bboy_mn:
> 
> << I came up with the idea of ... programmable Portpager; portkey 
> and pager in one; range 500km or 300mi. >>
> -end quote-

<Catlady replies:
> 
> MADLY useful, altho' probably illegal to use in each country until 
> that country's Ministry of Magic has inspected it and collected 
> their bribe. HOWEVER, what about the presence of magic making 
> electronics go haywire? 
> -end this part-

bboy_mn replies:
The electronic overload only occurs at Hogwarts because there is such
a high density of raw uncontrolled magical power (the students) and
all the enchantments and wards protecting the Hogwarts grounds. 

Cell phones, for example, will work inside Diagon Alley (they work
best in the Leaky Cauldron) but the reception really sucks and the
reliabilty (unmade connections, dropped signals) is really bad. 

To get around interference, the electronics in the Portpagers are
magically and electrically shielded, and really only have to deal with
the local internal Portkey enchantment. The electronics don't really
do anything but provide an input source, display, and store things
like the preset location, etc.... It is really just acting as a medium
for transferring the wizard intent to the enchantment. 

Believe me, this was NO small task. Three of the most brilliant
wizards to ever come out of Hogwarts (Gryffindor, Ravenclaw, &
Hufflepuff; the perfect combination. All muggle-born.), who all went
on to earn advanced Engineering degrees from Britain's finest
universities. Spend years developing this. When they finally had it
working, they were so cash poor as a company, they didn't have the
resources to really promote it. Only a few of the better wizard
secuity agencies were using it. Harry and Ron found out about it (long
story) and convinced Fred and George to buy the company. With Weasley
Enterprise's cash infusion and their marketing resouces, the product
will eventually replace the Floo network completely, and will become
the wizard's primary mode of travel (although, that's in the future).

Think about it, a wizard may be able to apparate, but he can't take
his family with him when he does. Floo is messy, Portkey is a complex
enchantment and not very flexible. Solution? The Weasley Portpager;
the perfect wizard's transportion device. Where will it all lead?
Maybe Port-A-Taxis, then Port-A-Trains. Yes, yes... those Weasley
brothers, and Harry really know how to make money... rich...
disgustingly rich boys.

After indulging me in my little magical electronic fantasy, do I have
a point? Not really, other than to emphasize how complex a simple
little concept can get in a story. Most of what I outlined here
actually all happens in the background, and only briefly appears in
the foreground of the story a few times. The other point is that there
aren't just brilliant wizards and dullard Shunpikes in the wizard
world. There are jobs for full range of wizardly and witchly skills. 

Someone else pointed out, JKR's wizard world is in the somewhat
pre-industrial stage. I think I agree with that. Wizard workers are
mostly craftsman and artisan. Although, they fall into a range of
craftsmen from the trick wand enchanter to the expert chess set maker.

The more I think about the complexity of the 'behind the scenes'
wizard world, the harder it is for me to believe that the population
is extremely small. Some people have presented strong arguements for
magic populations of 20,000. Hard to believe a population that small
could provide enough 'behind the scenes' people to support the 'in the
scene' people as depicted in canon.

Last note before moving on, thanks to Percy who got a Portpage
contract with the British Ministry, now all the foreign Ministies want
them too. Aurors and high level Ministry staff use them mostly. Aurors
use specially modifed versions to transport prisoners directly to the
Law Enforcement Center. Capture to jail with Portpager returned in 20
seconds. Minimal risk to the Auror. Brilliant. Great for transporting
Dragons too.

As long as I'm on the subject of Dragons, how do you think Charlie
Weasley and his co-workers transported those Dragons from Romania to
Hogwarts? Prior to reading that, I would have assumed the way to
transport Dragons was to cover them with anti-muggle spells and fly
them to their destination; sort of like herding cattle. But the
dragons were put out with a sleeping draft, and weren't awaken until
nightfall. How do you transport 4 dragons five stories tall weighing
tons each 1600 miles (as the dragon flys)?

My life would be so much earier if I could get JKR to tell me what the
 maximum range for portkey and apparation are. Don't suppose anyone
remembers her mentioning that?
-bboy_mn-end this part-

 
> Catlady quotes bboy_mn:
> << Harry has large crates of ginger imported from China and Jamaica. 
> The question is, how do wizards transport something that big? Truck 
> brooms? Trans-Atlantic cargo brooms? >>


> Catlady:
> 
> I suspect they use ships, as QTTA says wizards used ships to cross 
> oceans until brooms became reliable enough. Magic may serve to make 
> their ships bigger inside than out, as fast as jetliners, with total 
> absence of seasickness ...  
> 
> Another possibility: I wonder if large objects (such as a Muggle 
> shipping container of ginger) can be Transfigured or Charmed into 
> something small enough and light enough that a Firebolt Express
> rider can stuff his/her pockets full of them, and Transfigure, 
> ... them back upon arrival. 
>  -end this part-

bboy_mn:
..uuuuuuuu.... I like the way your mind works. All excellent ideas.
Question: How do you haul three huge crates of ginger vast distances?
Answer: Simple, shrink them down, put them in your pocket, and hop on
your racing broom. Bloody brilliant. Wish I had thought of it.
Hummm.... Firebolt Express, you say,... I'll bet there's big money to
be made there. Now there is an investment opportunity.
-bboy_mn-end this part-


Catlady quoting bboy_mn who was quoting Catlady:
> << J -- Juju -- at type of West African fetish/amulet magic.
> V is for Vampire or -- voodoo -
> X -- Xuthus - Greek Mythology. The ancestor of the Ionian Greeks. 
> Y -- Yeti - abominable snowman -- or -- Yggdrasil - The great ash >>
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 
> 
> Would a British wizarding (not Muggle) child know of Juju, voodoo, 
> Xuthus, or Yggdrasil? They might know of Yeti, ... edited.
> -end this part-

Finally, bboy_mn:
X is hard, really hard, and Yggdrasil was the best I could find in the
dictionary until I thought of Yeti. I search today again to see if I
could come up with something else for X and Z, and came up dry. 

I think since Juju and Voodoo are very powerful forms of magic, it's
something magic kids might learn about relatively young. One draw back
as far as your child's magical picture book of the alphabet, how do
you draw a picture of Juju or Voodoo?

We all know about Voodoo which is closely related to Hoodoo. Both of
which have their roots in Africa and Juju. Juju/Voodoo all tend to be
darker forms of magic. Good Juju will give you strong Mojo; a
charismatic charm and presents. Although, Mojo also refers to a
charmed object. The only American Juju/Mojo charm (charmed object)
that I am familiar with is a Black Hat Bone, which is exactly what it
say, a black bone worn on your hat.  Don't know what it does though.

Well, enough pointless rambling for now.

bboy_mn






From tabouli at unite.com.au  Tue Jan 21 13:20:53 2003
From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli)
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 00:20:53 +1100
Subject: Mrs Nicole Coulter? and Australia through US eyes
Message-ID: <001701c2c14f$ed8838e0$425132d2@price>

>Hey, Nicole's Australian--not British exactly, she would still be eligible to 
> act in a Harry Potter movie, wouldn't she?

(waves Australian flag patriotically)

...though I confess I've never been all *that* into Nicole Kidman as an actress - a bit cool for me (though the Australian tabloids would shred me for saying such a thing about Our Nic).  I like more warmth and energy.  "Moulin Rouge" was the warmest I've seen her, although I haven't seen that many of her films.

As to the question, I suspect when the "British actors only" clause was chiselled into the HP movie contract it was probably intended as a "no Americanisation" clause in thin disguise.  The HP books *are* very British indeed in flavour, and IMO actors with American accents would have jarred.  That said, if an actor who wasn't British could assume an appropriate accent convincingly, I don't see why not.  From my (limited) experience it's easier for an Australian to put on a convincing English accent than a convincing American accent, and given that Nicole has no trouble with American accents (that I know of: any American thoughts?), I'm sure she could do a good job with at least standard RP English.  As to what part to give her, errr... Madame Rosmerta? The tea trolley lady?  :D

On the subject of films, I read in an interview with Philip Pullman in which he said that he thought Nicole would do well as Mrs Coulter in his books, and *there* I agree.  That coolness I don't go for is perfect for Mrs Coulter.  Cool, alluring, aloof, sinister.  Just the thing.  If they're going for strict from-the-page accuracy she'll need a sleek black Uma-Thurman-in-Pulp-Fiction-esque wig, which would be a pity with those great red curls, but even so.

Back to accents, one thing I noticed when travelling the States last year for the first time was that in the US Australia has almost no presence (save perhaps Paul Hogan and that crocodile guy).  Quite different from the UK, where people readily recognise an Australian accent and have definite (albeit sometimes odd) ideas about what the place is like.  My impression was that in the States Australia has, if anything at all, a vaguely... *rural* sort of an image.  Californian beaches crossed with small midwest country towns and peppered with kangaroos.

Ah, if only the truth were so romantic!

Mind you, bits of Northern California looked remarkably like the countryside just outside Adelaide. Eucalypts and yellow grassy hills and coastline and all (friendly wave at Catherine Keegan, who was very hospitable in said Northen California).  And Melbourne is said to have a similar look and feel to Boston, according to those who have visited both.

So, while I'm taking one of my favorite hobby horses (Anglophone Contrasts, out of Curiosity by Midnight Message) out for a canter, what image *do* people in the USA have of Australia, if any?  Would you recognise an Australian accent?

Tabouli.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Tue Jan 21 13:44:45 2003
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David <dfrankiswork@netscape.net>)
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 13:44:45 -0000
Subject: Abbreviation question
Message-ID: <b0jisd+f3e8@eGroups.com>

In some shipping discussions there is a clear danger of not knowing 
whether H stands for Harry or Hermione.

May I ask in what possible sense the abbreviation Hr is supposed to 
help resolve the ambiguity?

David, who notes that ron already seems to be in Hermione




From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Tue Jan 21 14:29:52 2003
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David <dfrankiswork@netscape.net>)
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 14:29:52 -0000
Subject: - alphaquilt
Message-ID: <b0jlh0+2crc@eGroups.com>

Heidi wrote:

> Well, at least you didn't say that "they're probably all the 
lawyers," which means you hold out hope that some of the lawyers 
aren't actually bloodsuckers, or perhaps that becoming undead isn't 
part of the admission to the Bar. 

Well, of course not.  Discworld fans all know that the legal 
profession is also open to zombies.

David, who thinks that the lawyers = vampires joke was so well told 
by Darla that it has nowhere to go




From urbana at charter.net  Tue Jan 21 14:46:43 2003
From: urbana at charter.net (Anne <urbana@charter.net>)
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 14:46:43 -0000
Subject: Mrs Nicole Coulter? and Australia through US eyes
In-Reply-To: <001701c2c14f$ed8838e0$425132d2@price>
Message-ID: <b0jmgj+djuu@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Tabouli" <tabouli at u...> 
wrote:
> So, while I'm taking one of my favorite hobby horses (Anglophone 
Contrasts, out of Curiosity by Midnight Message) out for a canter, 
what image *do* people in the USA have of Australia, if any?  Would 
you recognise an Australian accent?
> 
> Tabouli.
> 

I certainly would. One of mother's first cousins married a woman from 
Perth (met her there during WWII), so I was exposed to Aunt Una's 
Aussie accent thousands of times during my childhood. I've always 
thought it was a fairly strong accent, so I've been surprised that 
people like Kidman and Mel Gibson can turn it off so they can 
sound "American". Of course there are probably at least 50 
different "American accents" - Louisiana (where I grew up) has at 
least 3 different accents.

Anne U
(who has lived in WisCAHNsin for many years)





From melclaros at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 21 14:56:51 2003
From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros <melclaros@yahoo.com>)
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 14:56:51 -0000
Subject: Age suitability of canon
In-Reply-To: <008801c2c03c$35c9bee0$14a0cdd1@RVotaw>
Message-ID: <b0jn3j+tn9n@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Richelle Votaw" 
<rvotaw at i...> wrote:
> Melpomene wrote:
> 
> > And that's funny because I remember one--Time Magazine upon 
release 
> > of GoF where JKR herself was quoted as saying she would NOT ALLOW 
her 
> > daughter to read the books at her (at the time) age.
> 
> And Rhiannon wrote:
> 
> > And I'd like to point out that, although JKR may feel that the 
books were 
> > not appropriate for her own daughter, that doesn't mean that they 
are 
> > inappropriate for all children of that age. IMO, no one knows 
what's 
> > best for a child like the parents *of that child* (for 
clarification, 
> > I'm not referring to abusive or otherwise unfit parents, I am 
> > referring to the run-of-the-mill parent). 
> 
> Okay, this is interesting.  I have two quotes here (that I can put 
my hands on, I've read others but don't have them here at the moment) 
where JKR refers to her daughter, at seven, reading Goblet of Fire.  
First the CBC interview:
> 


Which just goes to show you: you just can't trust a damned thing 
that...yeah...um...er...comes out of that woman's mouth.  ;)

Melpomene




From thalia at aokp.org  Tue Jan 21 15:06:12 2003
From: thalia at aokp.org (chanteuse thalia chaunacy)
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 07:06:12 -0800
Subject: Skewed Australia & Ms. Kidman
In-Reply-To: <001701c2c14f$ed8838e0$425132d2@price>
References: <001701c2c14f$ed8838e0$425132d2@price>
Message-ID: <WorldClient-F200301210706.AA06120287@aokp.org>

Tabouli cracked me up by saying: "My impression was that in the States 
Australia has, if anything at all, a vaguely... *rural* sort of an image. 
Californian beaches crossed with small midwest country towns and peppered 
with kangaroos."

Right on the money. You can't escape Croc Dundee and the Croc Hunter. 
Mission:Impossible 2 showed an actual city, but I was highly distracted 
by all the beautiful people. :) I recognize Australian accents because 
I've been obsessed with 'Strictly Ballroom' since about 1994. I guess 
that's all kinda sad ... but I've lived with '90210' and 'Sleepless in 
Seattle' comparisons for a loooong time. (It does NOT rain nine months 
out of the year here.  It's simply cloudy for nine months out of the 
year. <grin>)

Nicole Kidman is a goddess. Her American accents are the best I've heard. 
On a side/similar note, will someone *please* clear up Gwenyth (sp?) 
Paltrow's nationality for me? (I am laregly out of the media loop, 
forgive my ignorance.) I think she's American, and if so, what'd ya'll 
think of her accent in 'Sliding Doors'? Fooled me (can you tell?).

thalia 'waves a *Nicole Kidman for Madam Rosemerta* flag dreamily' 
chaunacy because hey, then Ron & I could drool over her in tandem

ooo ooo ps ch 5 of my smash-hit R/Hr fic is up 
http://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1106151
if anyone wants a laugh

"Ah, music. A magic beyond all we do here!"  -Albus Dumbledore




From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Tue Jan 21 16:03:38 2003
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David <dfrankiswork@netscape.net>)
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 16:03:38 -0000
Subject: Kidman and Paltrow and accents (was Skewed Australia & Ms. Kidman)
In-Reply-To: <WorldClient-F200301210706.AA06120287@aokp.org>
Message-ID: <b0jr0q+dnbh@eGroups.com>

thalia wrote:

> Nicole Kidman is a goddess. Her American accents are the best I've 
heard.

Her British English in The Others was excellent.  Her acting wasn't 
bad either.
 
> On a side/similar note, will someone *please* clear up Gwenyth 
(sp?) 
> Paltrow's nationality for me? (I am laregly out of the media loop, 
> forgive my ignorance.) I think she's American, and if so, what'd 
ya'll 
> think of her accent in 'Sliding Doors'? Fooled me (can you tell?).

I think she's American, er, that is, US American.

Her accent in Sliding Doors was weird.  It sounded British to me, 
but rather a rare brand.  Very adenoidal, conveying a sort of 
rootless upper class impression.

In general I think most actors seem to be able to do accents when 
they need to.  The notorious exception being Dick van Dyke in Mary 
Poppins.

Disney went through a phase of having a token Brit in their 
animations, and these often sound a bit phoney.  I'm not sure 
whether this was because the actors couldn't really reach what they 
were aiming for, or because Disney thought the real thing wasn't 
what was wanted for the American audience: the aural equivalent of 
insisting on red phone boxes and policemen on bicycles, without 
regard to reality.

Our kids' television often has the British presenters doing American 
accents.  These are just as excruciating as anything thrown at us 
across the Atlantic

David




From annemehr at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 21 17:41:47 2003
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr <annemehr@yahoo.com>)
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 17:41:47 -0000
Subject: Mrs Nicole Coulter? and Australia through US eyes
In-Reply-To: <001701c2c14f$ed8838e0$425132d2@price>
Message-ID: <b0k0or+lcpa@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Tabouli" <tabouli at u...> 
wrote:

<snip>
 
> Back to accents, one thing I noticed when travelling the States last 
year for the first time was that in the US Australia has almost no 
presence (save perhaps Paul Hogan and that crocodile guy).  Quite 
different from the UK, where people readily recognise an Australian 
accent and have definite (albeit sometimes odd) ideas about what the 
place is like.  My impression was that in the States Australia has, if 
anything at all, a vaguely... *rural* sort of an image.  Californian 
beaches crossed with small midwest country towns and peppered with 
kangaroos.
> 
<snip>
> 
> So, while I'm taking one of my favorite hobby horses (Anglophone 
Contrasts, out of Curiosity by Midnight Message) out for a canter, 
what image *do* people in the USA have of Australia, if any?  Would 
you recognise an Australian accent?
> 
> Tabouli.

Annemehr: <waves at her list-elf, sorry to have missed her visit ;)>

Well, for the most part, I think we just think of Australia as "cool". 
 A little like us as far as the "rugged self-reliance" goes (taken as 
an archetypal image, not as a believed reality).  You can see it in 
the popularity of Hogan and Steve Irwin when they come along.

True, there is not much of a strong Australian presence here besides 
entertainers.  I think that is because, while very many of us would 
love to visit Australia, it's far enough away and expensive enough to 
get there that it unfortunately doesn't happen much.  Also, 
there've been *very* few Australians who have ever emigrated to 
the US, and immigration is what has brought us the presence of so many 
cultures here that we're now so familiar with.  There's a basic good 
image of Australia, but not much interaction, unfortunately.  I for 
one, though, can certainly tell the difference between Australian and 
British accents.

Going off on a tangent, I wish with all the cable channels we have, we 
would get a lot more TV from other countries.  We get some of the BBC 
comedies on PBS, certainly, but it just seems to be that one little 
niche only.  I'd love to get the BBC news (straight from London, not 
an "international" version), and more varied shows from Britain, 
Australia, New Zealand and Canada.  Maybe it's available on hugely 
expensive options with 800 channels or something, but I'm only paying 
for basic cable.  Don't you all think there'd be a decent viewership 
for this kind of thing?  I'd tune in!

Annemehr
fondly remembering living in England for a year in '71/'72 when she 
was 11 -- a first-year in grammar school!




From urbana at charter.net  Tue Jan 21 18:14:11 2003
From: urbana at charter.net (Anne <urbana@charter.net>)
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 18:14:11 -0000
Subject: Skewed Australia & Ms. Kidman
In-Reply-To: <WorldClient-F200301210706.AA06120287@aokp.org>
Message-ID: <b0k2lj+bpbm@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "chanteuse thalia chaunacy" 
<thalia at a...> wrote:
> On a side/similar note, will someone *please* clear up Gwenyth 
(sp?) 
> Paltrow's nationality for me? (I am laregly out of the media loop, 
> forgive my ignorance.) I think she's American, and if so, what'd 
ya'll 
> think of her accent in 'Sliding Doors'? Fooled me (can you tell?).

I haven't seen Sliding Doors, but Gwyneth is definitely U.S. 
American. Her parents are the actress Blythe Danner and the late 
Bruce Paltrow, who was a producer of TV shows and possibly movies as 
well. IIRC Gwyneth grew up in New York City.

Anne U
(who realizes that Nicole and Gwyneth are probably considered "too 
old" to play Fleur ... but if Rickman can play Snape, then why not?)




From timregan at microsoft.com  Tue Jan 21 18:41:01 2003
From: timregan at microsoft.com (Tim Regan <timregan@microsoft.com>)
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 18:41:01 -0000
Subject: Mrs Nicole Coulter? and Australia through US eyes
In-Reply-To: <001701c2c14f$ed8838e0$425132d2@price>
Message-ID: <b0k47t+6ael@eGroups.com>

Hi All,

--- "Tabouli" wrote:
> On the subject of films, I read in an interview with Philip
> Pullman in which he said that he thought Nicole would do well as
> Mrs Coulter in his books, and *there* I agree.  That coolness I
> don't go for is perfect for Mrs Coulter.  Cool, alluring, aloof,
> sinister.  Just the thing.  


I agree she'd be great for the role. Pullman seems to have had the 
idea some time ago: in his talk at the Hay-on-Wye book festival in 
June 2002
http://books.guardian.co.uk/guardianhayfestival2002/ 
Philip Pullman talks about Mrs. Coulter and likens her to the 
character Suzanne Stone Maretto in the 1995 film "To Die For". And 
she's played by ... Nicole Kidman! I cannot see that link myself: 
Mrs. Coulter is highly accomplished and has a realistic outlook of 
the world whereas Suzanne isn't. But they are both very 
manipulative. Anyway the talk with Q&A is at 
http://windows.streamuk.com/hayonwye/2002/18.wma 

Cheers,

Dumbledad.




From draco382 at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 21 19:00:02 2003
From: draco382 at yahoo.com (draco382 <draco382@yahoo.com>)
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 19:00:02 -0000
Subject: Mrs Nicole Coulter? and Australia through US eyes
In-Reply-To: <001701c2c14f$ed8838e0$425132d2@price>
Message-ID: <b0k5bi+arua@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Tabouli" <tabouli at u...> 
wrote:

> So, while I'm taking one of my favorite hobby horses (Anglophone 
Contrasts, out of Curiosity by Midnight Message) out for a canter, 
what image *do* people in the USA have of Australia, if any?  Would 
you recognise an Australian accent?
> 

I had the great fortune of visiting Australia two summers ago and was 
amazed at how much variety there was in the landscape...every place 
we visited was gorgeous.  I would have to agree with the comments 
made by my fellow Americans so far...we don't really know that much 
about Australia outside of the generalization (Crocadile Dundee, 
Steve Erwin, kangaroos, Outback Steakhouse)  The impression, i 
believe, is that Australia is this very rural and rugged place.  Why 
would we think this?  Well, among other media-related impressions, I 
remember a commercial airing a few months back for Yahoo!Shopping 
which featured a man living out in a trailer in the middle of 
the "Australian Outback" with his dog all by himself.  Plus for some 
reason, when i think "Australia", I think "Khaki clothes" -- maybe 
that's something to do with Crocodile Hunter.    

I have a question...is the American accent harder or easier to 
impersonate than a British accent or Australian accent?  I've always 
been amazed at how easily Mel Gibson and Nicole Kidman switch between 
the two.  

~draco382




From timregan at microsoft.com  Tue Jan 21 19:02:06 2003
From: timregan at microsoft.com (Tim Regan <timregan@microsoft.com>)
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 19:02:06 -0000
Subject: Upstanding vampires (was Re: - alphaquilt)
In-Reply-To: <3E2CBACE.000001.44885@monica>
Message-ID: <b0k5fe+ffm8@eGroups.com>

Hi All,

--- "Kathryn Cawte" wrote:
> we can assume that some vampires are an actual member of
> society rather than total outcasts (like say werewolves).
> 
> They're probably all lawyers.

There's an amazing Vampire character in China Meiville's book "The 
Scar"
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0345444388/
who is a vampire and "mayor" of one of the city districts. He even 
levys a blood tax on the people who live there. It's an amazing book 
but you may not want to buy it - he says bad things publically about 
the Harry Potter books :-(

Cheers,

Dumbledad.




From dradamsapple at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 22 01:26:24 2003
From: dradamsapple at yahoo.com (dradamsapple <dradamsapple@yahoo.com>)
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 01:26:24 -0000
Subject: Magic class
Message-ID: <b0ks00+m469@eGroups.com>

Just thougt I'd share . . .

We got our Spring 'Brown Learning Community' catalogue today (from 
Brown Universtiy) and they are offering a class called "The Problem 
of Magic in the Modern World".  The description includes, 

" . . .magic remains one of the least well-understood of our ancient 
practices.  What, then, is magic?  Is is just a strange mixture of 
decepton, superstition and primitive religion, or is there more to it 
than that?  Should magic take its place among the alternative 
spiritual disciplines, like meditation, yoga or mysticism?  Does any 
magic really work?  If it does, can we explain how in rational or 
scientific  terms?  Is magic inherently good, evil, or 
neither?  . . ."

The class will look at the theory and practice of magic through the 
ages.

Interesting questions indeed. 

Any thoungts? ;-)

Anna . . . (who wishes she  could do a little magic to get the kids 
to bed . . . )




From blessedbrian at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 22 02:31:11 2003
From: blessedbrian at yahoo.com (Brian Cordova <blessedbrian@yahoo.com>)
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 02:31:11 -0000
Subject: COS DVD! 
Message-ID: <b0kvpf+jop9@eGroups.com>

  
  Chamber of Secrets DVD/VHS Release


On April 11, unlock the magic as Warner Home Video releases Harry 
Potter and the Chamber of Secrets on an extra features-loaded double 
disc DVD and on VHS. Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets is 
releasing on DVD in both widescreen and full-frame DVD formats for 
$29.95 SRP and for $24.99 SRP on VHS...

http://death-curse.com/#




From thalia at aokp.org  Wed Jan 22 03:47:20 2003
From: thalia at aokp.org (chanteuse thalia chaunacy)
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 19:47:20 -0800
Subject: accents schmaccents (was Kidman & Paltrow and accents)
In-Reply-To: <b0jr0q+dnbh@eGroups.com>
References: <WorldClient-F200301210706.AA06120287@aokp.org> <b0jr0q+dnbh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <WorldClient-F200301211947.AA47200309@aokp.org>

David (assumedly a Brit) wrote: [Gwyneth's] accent in Sliding Doors was 
weird. It sounded British to me, but rather a rare brand. Very adenoidal, 
conveying a sort of rootless upper class impression.

I did 'Steel Magnolias' in high school with a British exchange student 
playing Truvy (Dolly Parton's character in the movie) and she had no 
trouble -- cept with tissue (she said tih-syoo instead of tih-shyoo) and 
garage (she said GEHR-aj instead of gu-RAJ).  :) She couldn't do it at 
ALL without the heavy southern accent, though.  And that's often how it 
is for actors from the States, in my experience: if it's extremely 
cockney or snotty we can mostly pull it off, but just a run-of-the-mill 
(no offense intended, I couldn't think of a better way to put it) British 
accent?  <sigh> I've given up. I can impersonate Alan Rickman's character 
in Dogma pretty well, though. Is his accent normal? ;)

"In general I think most actors seem to be able to do accents when they 
need to. The notorious exception being Dick van Dyke in Mary Poppins."

That makes one an *excellent* actor. *Good* actors can falter at accents. 
Then again, I liked Kevin Costner as Robin Hood. <ducks>

Now, fifteen years ago (ie when I was seven) Mary Poppins was my absolute 
fave. Thus I still have to tell myself that Dick van Dyke is not, indeed, 
British.  Yay for childhood illusions.

My vote for noteriety per a perpetually heinous accent--Viggo Mortenson 
in LOTR. Yeah, the man's hot and a did a fine acting job--but I wish 
they'd spent a little less time teaching him Elvish and little more time 
teaching him the accent he was supposed to be sporting.

"Disney went through a phase of having a token Brit in their animations, 
and these often sound a bit phoney. I'm not sure whether this was because 
the actors couldn't really reach what they were aiming for, or because 
Disney thought the real thing wasn't what was wanted for the American 
audience: the aural equivalent of insisting on red phone boxes and 
policemen on bicycles, without regard to reality."

Disney trafficks in stereotypes. Want smart, upper-class characters? 
*poof* Make them British. Want royalty? *poof* Make them British.

We don need no stinkin reality!

Thalia 'can't wait to move to England and make fun of bad American 
impressions' Chaunacy ... You do have accountants in England, don't you?

'I think this is how Chicago got started: a bunch of people in New York 
said, 'Gee, I'm enjoying the crime and the poverty, but it just isn't 
cold enough.  Let's go west.' -- Richard Jeni




From catlady at wicca.net  Wed Jan 22 04:02:17 2003
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston) <catlady@wicca.net>)
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 04:02:17 -0000
Subject: Wizarding Businesses  and more rambling.
In-Reply-To: <b0imf8+3riv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b0l549+9kkr@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Steve <bboy_mn at y...>" wrote:
> 
> But the dragons were put out with a sleeping draft, and weren't 
> awaken until nightfall. How do you transport 4 dragons five stories
> tall weighing tons each 1600 miles (as the dragon flys)?

Hmm. I would imagine they Levitate the packing crates containing the 
dragons ... but Charlie's friends in book 1 dragons tied Norbert's 
crate to their broomsticks with ropes rather than using Levitation 
... maybe Levitating dragons requires a separate specialist from 
caring for dragons ... 
> 
> My life would be so much earier if I could get JKR to tell me what
> the maximum range for portkey and apparation are. Don't suppose 
> anyone remembers her mentioning that?

QTTA: "Apparition becomes increasingly unreliable over very long 
distances, and only very highly skilled wizards are wise to attempt 
it across continents."

> Although, Mojo also refers to a charmed object. The only American
> Juju/Mojo charm (charmed object) that I am familiar with is a Black
> Hat Bone, which is exactly what it say, a black bone worn on your 
> hat.  Don't know what it does though.

An interesting website to poke around: a Hoodoo practitioner explains 
what classic Blues lyrics mean: http://www.luckymojo.com/blues.html




From urbana at charter.net  Wed Jan 22 04:46:35 2003
From: urbana at charter.net (Anne <urbana@charter.net>)
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 04:46:35 -0000
Subject: Mojo/Hoodoo etc. (was Wizarding Businesses  and more rambling.)
In-Reply-To: <b0l549+9kkr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b0l7nb+5v55@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, > > bboy_mn wrote:
> Although, Mojo also refers to a charmed object. The only American
> > Juju/Mojo charm (charmed object) that I am familiar with is a 
Black
> > Hat Bone, which is exactly what it say, a black bone worn on your 
> > hat.  Don't know what it does though.

and "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston) <catlady at w...>" <catlady at w...> 
replied:

> An interesting website to poke around: a Hoodoo practitioner 
explains 
> what classic Blues lyrics mean: http://www.luckymojo.com/blues.html

Which reminds me of that great song CASTING MY SPELL ON YOU (I'm most 
familiar with the recent version by American bluesman Coco Montoya):

"I took a black cat, (a cave bat) threw 'em in a pot pot, pot pot pot 
pot 
I took a green snake, (a blue snake), tied 'em in a knot knot, knot 
knot knot knot 
I took the dog's paw, (a calf's jaw) hung 'em on the line line, line 
line line line 
I took a horse hair, (a green bear) made a crazy sign sign, sign sign 
sign sign 

I'm casting my spell on you, casting my spell on you, casting my 
spell on you 
You'll never never be untrue, yeah yeah yeah, yeah yeah yeah,yeah 
yeah yeah, yeah yeah yeah 
I took a ghost too, an old shoe, put 'em in the ground ground, ground 
ground ground ground 
I took and old dish, a dried fish, made a crazy sound sound, sound 
sound sound sound 

I took in a goose egg, a frog leg, put 'em in a sack sack, sack sack 
sack sack 
I got a Hindu, (a tattoo) a genie on my back back, back back back 
back 
I'm casting my spell on you, casting my spell on you, casting my 
spell on you 
You'll never never be untrue, yeah yeah yeah, yeah yeah yeah,yeah 
yeah yeah, yeah yeah yeah 

I took a black cat, (a cave bat) threw 'em in a pot pot, pot pot pot 
pot 
I took a green snake, (a blue snake), tied 'em in a knot knot, knot 
knot knot knot 
I took the dog's paw, (a calf's jaw) hung 'em on the line line, line 
line line line 
I took a horse hair, (a green bear) made a crazy sign sign, sign sign 
sign sign 

I'm casting my spell on you, casting my spell on you, casting my 
spell on you,you'll never never be untrue, 
Casting my spell on you, casting my spell on you, casting my spell on 
you, you'll never never be untrue..."

Another great version of this appears on a 2001 CD called Young Texas 
Guitar Slingers, released by Texas Music Group.

Anne U
(wondering what happened to eye of newt, which doesn't make this list)






From catlady at wicca.net  Wed Jan 22 04:52:01 2003
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston) <catlady@wicca.net>)
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 04:52:01 -0000
Subject: Australia through US eyes
In-Reply-To: <001701c2c14f$ed8838e0$425132d2@price>
Message-ID: <b0l81h+tm7c@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Tabouli" wrote:

<< Back to accents, one thing I noticed when travelling the States 
last year for the first time was that in the US Australia has almost 
no presence (save perhaps Paul Hogan and that crocodile guy).  Quite 
different from the UK, where people readily recognise an Australian 
accent and have definite (albeit sometimes odd) ideas about what the 
place is like.  My impression was that in the States Australia has, 
if anything at all, a vaguely... *rural* sort of an image.  
Californian beaches crossed with small midwest country towns and 
peppered with kangaroos. >>

Really? When I lived in New York City, my ex (a Londoner with the 
modern version of a working-class accent) always said that Americans 
hearing his accent always asked him if he were Australian.

<< what image *do* people in the USA have of Australia, if any? >>

Considering how many photos of Sydney Opera House are always being 
thrust upon me, my image of Australia (and I assume most Americans')
starts with a modern city with a big piece of unlikely architecture 
attractively posed between a sky of fireworks and a harbor of yachts.

<< Would you recognise an Australian accent? >>

Well, that *really* strong Strine ... 




From catlady at wicca.net  Wed Jan 22 04:56:53 2003
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston) <catlady@wicca.net>)
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 04:56:53 -0000
Subject: Mojo/Hoodoo etc. --> alphaquilt
In-Reply-To: <b0l7nb+5v55@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b0l8al+dc2j@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Anne <urbana at c...>"  wrote:

> (wondering what happened to eye of newt, which doesn't make this 
list)

Would Newt work for N? Is a slimey fat-tailed quadruped with bright 
orange spots sufficiently recognizable?




From lilac_bearry at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 22 08:07:45 2003
From: lilac_bearry at yahoo.com (Lilac)
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 00:07:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject: "The Count" (was Alphaquilt)
Message-ID: <20030122080745.93534.qmail@web40311.mail.yahoo.com>


<<<The are plenty of vampires that have been de-fanged. Between 
Count Chocula cereal and The Count from Sesame Street (is he 
still around?) little kids probably don't even know vampires are 
*supposed* to be scary.

Pippin>>>

Oh, yes, Pippin...The Count is still around...yes, he's very much around and he's counting and...stuff...yes...very...much...around....<brain starts oozing out ears>

~Lilac, whose 2 year old loves Sesame Street so we don't miss an episode...not a single one...





 

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

"Professor, can you show me that blocking thing again?"

Lockhart cuffed Harry merrily on the shoulder.  "Just do what I did, Harry!"

"What, drop my wand?"

 --Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*



---------------------------------
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From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Wed Jan 22 13:07:02 2003
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius <coriolan@worldnet.att.net>)
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 13:07:02 -0000
Subject: Outrage! New Character Planned for LOTR III
Message-ID: <b0m51m+3eed@eGroups.com>

Read the gory details here.....

http://www.bbspot.com/News/2003/01/jaromir.html

  - CMC




From urbana at charter.net  Wed Jan 22 14:51:48 2003
From: urbana at charter.net (Anne <urbana@charter.net>)
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 14:51:48 -0000
Subject: Outrage! New Character Planned for LOTR III
In-Reply-To: <b0m51m+3eed@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b0mb64+l5i2@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Caius Marcius 
<coriolan at w...>" <coriolan at w...> wrote:
> Read the gory details here.....
> 
> http://www.bbspot.com/News/2003/01/jaromir.html
> 
>   - CMC

 ROTFLMAO ... my favorite line: "People complained a lot about Gimli 
just being there for comic relief," continued Wilcox. "We answer that 
criticism by directing the humor through Jar-Jaromir in The Return of 
the King." 

Only problem with that one is that Jar-Jar in any form is really the 
CGI translation for Seriously Unfunny :-( 

Anne U
(adding Jar-Jaromir to the list of "things that squick me")





From ken.kuller at veritas.com  Wed Jan 22 15:36:27 2003
From: ken.kuller at veritas.com (Kenneth M. Kuller <ken.kuller@veritas.com>)
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 15:36:27 -0000
Subject: Magic class
In-Reply-To: <b0ks00+m469@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b0mdpr+pifq@eGroups.com>

My thoughts:  It all depends on which mailing list are you on - the 
Wizard list or the Muggle list.

If you are on the Wizard mailing list, it's great to see wizards 
sharing their hobbies with other wizards.

If you are on the Muggle mailing list, quite it's possible that they 
ran simply short of course catalogs and innocently grabbed a few from 
that "other" box.  Are there any night classes in ancient runes, 
flight, numerology, arithmancy, divination, potions, charms, 
transfiguration or defense against the dark arts?  If you do sign up 
for any of these magic courses, mark your form "Squib" in order to 
avoid future complications.

- Ken


--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "dradamsapple 
<dradamsapple at y...>" <dradamsapple at y...> wrote:
> Just thougt I'd share . . .
> 
> We got our Spring 'Brown Learning Community' catalogue today (from 
> Brown Universtiy) and they are offering a class called "The Problem 
> of Magic in the Modern World".  The description includes, 
> 
> " . . .magic remains one of the least well-understood of our 
ancient 
> practices.  What, then, is magic?  Is is just a strange mixture of 
> decepton, superstition and primitive religion, or is there more to 
it 
> than that?  Should magic take its place among the alternative 
> spiritual disciplines, like meditation, yoga or mysticism?  Does 
any 
> magic really work?  If it does, can we explain how in rational or 
> scientific  terms?  Is magic inherently good, evil, or 
> neither?  . . ."
> 
> The class will look at the theory and practice of magic through the 
> ages.
> 
> Interesting questions indeed. 
> 
> Any thoungts? ;-)
> 
> Anna . . . (who wishes she  could do a little magic to get the kids 
> to bed . . . )




From the_little_catboy at yahoo.ca  Wed Jan 22 20:29:03 2003
From: the_little_catboy at yahoo.ca (Caleb Williamson)
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 15:29:03 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Outrage! New Character Planned for LOTR III
In-Reply-To: <b0m51m+3eed@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20030122202903.80593.qmail@web11405.mail.yahoo.com>

LOL 
I haven't seen somthing that funny in ages. But with
the way he is treating the LoTR canon I wouldn't be to
shocked if he added Jar-Jar to the movie.
Caleb

"If you have nothing to say, say it often" Ed the Sock

 

______________________________________________________________________ 
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca



From bkb042 at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 22 21:39:16 2003
From: bkb042 at yahoo.com (Brian <bkb042@yahoo.com>)
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 21:39:16 -0000
Subject: Fawkes & Rookwood
Message-ID: <b0n324+ibje@eGroups.com>

This could be an interesting little parallel that I've found. 

It's generally accepted that Fawkes the phoenix is named after Guy 
Fawkes of Gunpowder Plot fame. While researching the plot, I found 
the name of one of his co-conspirators: Ambrose Rookwood. Is Ambrose 
the gr gr gr gr grandfather of Augustus (mentioned in GoF)? Did JKR 
use this surname knowingly? If so, what could it portend?




From Ali at zymurgy.org  Wed Jan 22 23:07:15 2003
From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali <Ali@zymurgy.org>)
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 23:07:15 -0000
Subject: Accents in LOTR  was    Re: accents schmaccents (was Kidman & Paltrow d accents)
In-Reply-To: <WorldClient-F200301211947.AA47200309@aokp.org>
Message-ID: <b0n873+h3oe@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "chanteuse thalia chaunacy" 
<thalia at a...> wrote:

>>> That makes one an *excellent* actor. *Good* actors can falter at 
> My vote for noteriety per a perpetually heinous accent--Viggo 
Mortenson in LOTR. Yeah, the man's hot and a did a fine acting job--
but I wish they'd spent a little less time teaching him Elvish and 
little more time teaching him the accent he was supposed to be 
sporting.<<< 

His accent didn't bother me at all. As a ranger Aragorn would have 
travelled far and wide, and some slips in his accent would be 
allowable. I actually felt that his accent was quite good. OTOH, 
Sam's accent really annoyed me. It seemed to swing between a kind of 
yokel/ country bumpkin accent and what I assume is his native 
American accent. It also seemed worse in TT than FoTR.

Ali




From shindemo_ii at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 22 23:34:09 2003
From: shindemo_ii at yahoo.com (Kate Tanski)
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 15:34:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Seeking HP Fanfic Readers for Survey
Message-ID: <20030122233409.86222.qmail@web14901.mail.yahoo.com>

Hello!

I am seeking HP Fanfic readers to take the time to answer this (not
very brief) survey on Harry Potter fanfiction. This questionnaire is
part of a project I am conducting about the reading habits and
preferences of people who read Harry Potter fanfiction and their
involvement with the Harry Potter fandom and other fandoms online. Feel
free to skip any questions which you do not want to answer. Please send
all replies to tanskik at lawrence.edu 

Thank you very much for your cooperation.

Katherine Tanski
Lawrence University

1. How long have you been in the Harry Potter fandom?

a. 6 months or less.
b. 6 months to a year.
c. One to two years.
d. More than two years

2. At what age did you first begin reading fanfiction 

a. 5-9 years.
b. 10-14 years.
c. 15-19 years.
d. 20-24 years.
e. 25-29 years.
f. 30-34 years.
g. 35 or older.

3. How long were you in the fandom before you started writing
fanfiction?

a. Less than three months.
b. Three to six months.
c. I always wrote fanfiction. That's how I got involved in the fandom. 
d. I don't write fanfiction. 

4. Do you consider yourself to be part of other fandoms?

a. Yes.
b. No.

5. If yes, which fandoms do you consider yourself to be a part of?

6. Do you write fanfiction for these other fandoms? If so, which?

7. Were you involved in these other fandoms before Harry Potter?

8. If yes, how did you discover Harry Potter Fanfiction?

9. Do you beta (in any fandom)?

a. Yes.
b. No.

10. How many fics do you beta for?

a. 1-2.
b. 3-5.
c. 5-10.
d. 10 or more.

11. How long have you betaed?

a. 6 months or less.
b. 6 months to a year.
c. 1-2 years.
d. 2-4 years.
e. 4 years or more.

12. How many Harry Potter fanfics do you read each week?

a. 1-4.
b. 5-9.
c. 10-14.
d. 15-19.
e. 20-24.
f. 25 or more.

13. About how many fanfics other than Harry Potter do you read each
week?

a. None.
b. 1-4.
c. 5-9.
d. 10 or more.

14. What kinds of fanfiction besides Harry Potter do you read? (List
all that apply)

a. None.
b. Anime.
c. TV Series.
d. Film.
e. Fantasy.
f. Original Fiction.
g. Real People.
h. Literature (Other than Harry Potter).
i. Other (please specify).

15. Do you read every day?

a. Yes.
b. No.
c. No, but I would if I could.

16. About how many hours per week do you read?

a. 1-5 hours.
b. 6-10 hours.
c. 11-15 hours.
d. 16-20 hours.
e. 21 hours or more.

17. Which of the following best describes your reading pattern?

a. I read mostly in the morning.
b. I read mostly during the day while working around the house.
c. I read mostly during lunchtime.
d. I read mostly in the afternoon.
e. I read mostly while traveling to and from work.
f. I read mostly in the evening.
g. I read just before going to sleep.
h. It's hard to say when I do most of my reading since I read every
chance I get.

18. Which of the following best describes what you usually do once
you've begun a fanfic?

a. I only continue reading it when I'm in the mood.
b. I read a little bit each day until I'm done.
c. I read as much of it as I can until I'm interrupted or have
something else to do.
d. I won't stop reading until I've finished it unless it's absolutely
necessary.

19. How often do you discuss fanfiction with others?

a. Never.
b. Rarely.
c. Sometimes.
d. Often.

20. Who do you discuss fanfiction with most often?

a. My parents.
b. My siblings.
c. My Real Life Friends.
d. People I know Online.
e. Other (please specify).

21. How often do you re-read fanfiction you've already read?

a. Never.
b. Rarely.
c. Sometimes.
d. Often.

22. Which of the following kinds of fanfiction do your read? List all
that apply. 

a. Het.
b. Slash.
c. Humor/Parody.
d. Gen (non pairing).
e. PWP.
f. Other.

23. Which of the following kinds of fanfiction is your favorite? Please
pick only one.

a. Het.
b. Slash.
c. Humor/Parody.
d. Gen (non pairing).
e. PWP.
f. Other.

24. Which of the following best describes what usually makes you decide
to read a fanfic or not?

a. I like the Pairing/Main Character.
b. I have already read something by the author and liked it.
c. I like the title.
d. The rating (R, NC-17, etc).
e. Someone else recommended it to me.
f. Other (please specify).

25. How do you find out about new fanfics most often?

a. FictionAlley Park.
b. LiveJournals/Blogs.
c. Mailing Lists.
d. Other websites (please specify which).
e. On my own.
f. Other (please specify).

26. Which of the following best describes what you do when you realize
you don't like a fanfic that you have already begun reading?

a. I stop reading and never finish it.
b. I read the ending to see how it came out.
c. I always finish it even if I don't like it.

27. Which of the following best describes your opinion on completed
fanfics versus WIPs?

a. I will never read a fanfic unless it's completed.
b. It does not matter to me if a fanfic is completed or not.
c. I get upset if a fanfic is not completed.
d. I will email/talk to the author of a fanfic that is not completed to
ask them to complete it.
e. I prefer reading fanfiction as it comes out chapter by chapter.

28. Which of the following do you feel should never be included in a
fanfic? Please select three and rank them in order of most distasteful
to second most distasteful and so on.

a. Rape.
b. Explicit sex.
c. Sad Ending.
d. Physical torture of main character.
e. Mary Sue/Marty Stu characters.
f. Incest
g. Metafictionality (i.e. fics that make reference to the fact that
they are a fic, or to other fics, or to the world outside of fic
writing).
h. Underage sex.
i. OOCness.
j. Other (Please specify).

29. What are the three most important ingredients in a fanfic? Please
pick the three which you think are essential and rank them in order
from most important ingredient to second most important and so on.

a. A happy ending.
b. Lots of scenes of explicit sexual description.
c. Lots of detail about the world of J.K. Rowling.
d. A slowly but consistently developing love between the main character
and the love interest.
e. A setting in a particular time period (MWPP, Post-War, 5th year,
etc.).
f. A particular kind of pairing (het or slash).
g. Character growth/development
h. Proper English/Grammar.
i. Plot
j. Other (please specify).

30. Which character from Harry Potter do you mainly read fanfiction
about? You may list up to three.

a. Harry Potter.
b. Draco Malfoy.
c. Ron Weasley.
d. Hermione Granger.
e. Ginny Weasley.
f. Severus Snape.
g. Remus Lupin.
h. Sirius Black.
i. Other Weasleys (The Twins, Percy, Charlie, Bill).
j. Lucius Malfoy.
k. Tom Riddle.
l. Voldemort.
m. Other Wizarding adults (Narcissa Malfoy, Peter Pettigrew, Gilderoy
Lockhart).
n. Other Professors from Hogwarts (Dumbledore, McGonagall, Sinistra,
Hooch, Hagrid).
o. Other Students from Hogwarts (Oliver Wood, Pansy Parkinson, Cho
Chang, Seamus Finnigan, Neville Longbottom).
p. The Dursleys.
q. Other (please specify).
r. I don't read for particular characters.

31. Which pairing from Harry Potter do you mainly read fanfiction
about?

a. I don't read for a particular pairing.
b. Anything Het.
c. Anything Slash.
d. Anything with a certain character (please specify which character).
e. H/Hr.
f . R/Hr.
g. H/G.
h. D/G.
i. H/R.
j. H/D.
k. HP/SS.
l. RL/SB.

32. Do you consider yourself a ___

a. Slasher.
b. Het Person.
c. Not aligned to either one side or the other.

33. Do you consider yourself belonging to a community revolving around
a specific pairing? 

a. Yes. (Please specify).
b. No.

34. Which of the following best describes your attitude to the way the
stories are told?

a. I like stories to be told by the main character, in first person.
b. I dislike stories which are told by the main character, in first
person, but I will read them sometimes. 
c. I won't read a story if it is told by the main character, in first
person. 
d. I have no preference about the perspective the story is written
from, whether it be a narrator, the main character, or using other
stylistic methods (e.g. only dialogue).

35. How closely do you think the characters in fanfiction resemble
their Canon counterparts?

a. They are not at all similar.
b. They are somewhat similar.
c. They are very similar.
d. They are almost identical.

36. How closely do you think the characters in fanfiction resemble the
people you meet in real life?
a. They are not at all similar.
b. They are somewhat similar.
c. They are very similar.
d. They are almost identical.

37. Which of the following reasons best describe why you read
fanfiction? Please pick the three reasons which are closest to your
reasons and rank them from the most important to the third most
important.

a. To escape my daily problems.
b. For simple relaxation.
c. Because reading is just for me. It is my time.
d. Because reading is at least better than other kinds of escape.
e. For intellectual stimulation.
f. Other (please specify).

38. What are your three favorite fanfics? Please give the titles in
order.

39. Who are your three favorite authors? Please list them in order.

40. What is your sex?

a. Female.
b. Male.

41. In what age group are you?

a. Under 15.
b. 15-18.
c. 19-22.
d. 23-27.
e. 28-35.
f. 35 or older.

42. What is your current marital status?

a. Single.
b. Long Term Relationship.
c. Married.

43. What is your sexual preference?

a. Heterosexual.
b. Bisexual.
c. Homosexual.

44. Do you have any children?

a. Yes.
b. No.

45. What is your current status?

a. Working full-time.
b. Working part-time.
c. Have a job but not at work because of illness, strike, or vacation.
d. Unemployed or looking for work.
e. In school (or on summer vacation).
f. Keeping house.
g. Retired.

46. If you have a full- or part-time job, what is your occupation or
job title?

47. How many years of education have you completed?

a. Some high school.
b. High school graduate.
c. Some college.
d. College graduate.
e. Some graduate work.
f. Master's degree.
g. Ph.D.

48. Do you believe that fanfiction is illegal?

a. Yes.
b. No.
c. Maybe. 

49. If J.K. Rowling prosecuted people who wrote fanfiction, would you
continue to support fanfiction?

a. Yes.
b. No.
c. Maybe.

50. How do you feel about fan merchandising i.e. The FAP CafePress
shops?

a. I have bought/would buy merchandise from such a shop.
b. I would not buy merchandise from such a shop, but I would not
discourage others who wanted to from buying merchandise.
c. I would not buy merchandise from such a shop, and I would discourage
others from buying merchandise. 


Thank you for your time (and effort).



__________________________________________________
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From thalia at aokp.org  Thu Jan 23 00:49:14 2003
From: thalia at aokp.org (chanteuse thalia chaunacy)
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 16:49:14 -0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Accents in LOTR
In-Reply-To: <b0n873+h3oe@eGroups.com>
References: <WorldClient-F200301211947.AA47200309@aokp.org> <b0n873+h3oe@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <WorldClient-F200301221649.AA49140380@aokp.org>

Ali wrote: "[Viggo's] accent didn't bother me at all. As a ranger Aragorn 
would have travelled far and wide, and some slips in his accent would be 
allowable. I actually felt that his accent was quite good."

I concede that; I just (two hours ago) got to Strider's introduction in 
the book and understand the directorial choices more and more.  I still 
don't think he'd bite half his R's like he's from Kansas, though. :) 

"OTOH, Sam's accent really annoyed me. It seemed to swing between a kind 
of yokel/country bumpkin accent and what I assume is his native American 
accent. It also seemed worse in TT than FoTR."

I have to bow out of this one, because his character leans so far towards 
pathetic (sir this, master that) that I have to ignore him most of the 
time or I get all upset.

Thalia 'not trying to get into a brawl about Sam's character, just 
expressing an opinion' Chaunacy

'Why assumptions suck: when you hear hoof beats, you think horses, not 
zebras.' 




From huntleyl at mssm.org  Thu Jan 23 01:41:31 2003
From: huntleyl at mssm.org (Laura Ingalls Huntley)
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 20:41:31 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Outrage! New Character Planned for LOTR III
References: <20030122202903.80593.qmail@web11405.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <005301c2c280$8e29c620$3301a8c0@huntleyl>

> Caleb
>
> "If you have nothing to say, say it often" Ed the Sock


LONG LIVE ED THE SOCK!

^_~ oh, how I miss my MUCH.  The US version they've replaced it with on
satellite TV just isn't the same...not that I get any TV at all up here at
school.  A blessing or a curse?  Hard to say.

Laura - who is covered in an unmoving three-foot layer of snow...over eight
feet where it drifts.  It was -35 degrees with windchill yesterday...and I
was out there in my flip flops and a tee shirt...I can't imagine what the
temperature must be on days when it's *really* cold.





From farmgirlnow at hotmail.com  Thu Jan 23 01:36:15 2003
From: farmgirlnow at hotmail.com (farmcatnow <farmgirlnow@hotmail.com>)
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 01:36:15 -0000
Subject: Anyone out there a HP fan from Australia/Sydney?
Message-ID: <b0nguf+h2kp@eGroups.com>

Hi there,

There is a chance I may be in Sydney in mid-February for a week.

Of course I will be doing the tourist stuff (I love tourist type 
things, gardens, zoo's, etc...)and could use some suggestions for 
things to see (possibly some interesting things that are off the 
beaten path).

I would also like to do a bit of shopping.  I have seen a lot of good 
HP merchandise at Australian on-line stores and eBay.  I wondered if 
anyone from Sydney could tell me of some good places to look for HP 
merch so that I can buy some things when I am visiting.

Thanks,

Julie from (very cold and wintery) Pennsylvania, USA
farmgirlnow at hotmail.com




From lupinesque at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 23 11:35:41 2003
From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z <lupinesque@yahoo.com>)
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 11:35:41 -0000
Subject: Kidman and Paltrow and accents (was Skewed Australia & Ms. Kidman)
In-Reply-To: <b0jr0q+dnbh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b0ok2d+68fp@eGroups.com>

David wrote re: Gwyneth Paltrow:

> I think she's American, er, that is, US American.

Yes.  Her parents are both American and she was born in LA.

> Our kids' television often has the British presenters doing 
American 
> accents.  These are just as excruciating as anything thrown at us 
> across the Atlantic

Oh dear.  Maybe I don't want to go to London and meet y'all after 
all.  You'd all be sniggering at how I talk ("Listen to those r's!  
They really talk like that!").  But that's okay--when I was in 
England, I couldn't suppress the thought that everyone was trying to 
sound like Monty Python characters just to put me on.

Amy




From lupinesque at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 23 14:52:06 2003
From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z <lupinesque@yahoo.com>)
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 14:52:06 -0000
Subject: Mrs Nicole Coulter? and Australia through US eyes
In-Reply-To: <001701c2c14f$ed8838e0$425132d2@price>
Message-ID: <b0ovim+op4c@eGroups.com>

Tabouli wrote:

> On the subject of films, I read in an interview with Philip Pullman 
in which he said that he thought Nicole would do well as Mrs Coulter 
in his books, and *there* I agree.  That coolness I don't go for is 
perfect for Mrs Coulter.  Cool, alluring, aloof, sinister.  Just the 
thing.  If they're going for strict from-the-page accuracy she'll 
need a sleek black Uma-Thurman-in-Pulp-Fiction-esque wig, which would 
be a pity with those great red curls, but even so.

She looks about right, to me (can't comment on her acting as I don't 
think I've ever seen one of her movies).  But then, I always think of 
Mrs. Coulter as blond despite the description.  I think it is because 
of the golden monkey and the fact that she reminds Will sharply of 
her blond daughter, especially when she tucks her hair behind her 
ears.  So, hair-tucking gesture-->Lyra's hair-->blond, in my 
illogical mind.

> So, while I'm taking one of my favorite hobby horses (Anglophone 
Contrasts, out of Curiosity by Midnight Message) out for a canter, 
what image *do* people in the USA have of Australia, if any?  Would 
you recognise an Australian accent?

Does it count if I can't tell an Australian from a New Zealand 
accent?  For me, they are both easily distinguished from 
US/Canadian/British/South African/Irish/etc. accents, but not from 
each other.

Images of Australia . . . deserts (California-type, not Lawrence-of-
Arabia-type), kangaroos, aborigines, Crocodile Dundee, machismo 
(Foster's ads), humor.  

Amy Z
whose Subaru has never seen a desert




From craigf4656 at hotmail.com  Thu Jan 23 15:38:05 2003
From: craigf4656 at hotmail.com (craigf4656 <craigf4656@hotmail.com>)
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 15:38:05 -0000
Subject: Pre-Ordering From Amazon
In-Reply-To: <b0i0tg+8glk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b0p28t+7ulu@eGroups.com>

Sorry this is late -

It's probably a computer glitch.  Amazon has been very unreliable lately.  I 
ordered the "Harry Potter's World" collection in December - B&N had it listed 
as having been published September 2002; Amazon said it wouldn't be 
published until February 2003 and I could preorder.  I of course got it from BN 
just fine.  I noticed this same problem when ordering some text books a few 
weeks ago for class - BN had stuff Amazon listed as not even published.  
Something's very funky with Amazon.

Craig




From timregan at microsoft.com  Thu Jan 23 16:42:21 2003
From: timregan at microsoft.com (Tim Regan <timregan@microsoft.com>)
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 16:42:21 -0000
Subject: Seeking HP Fanfic Readers for Survey
In-Reply-To: <20030122233409.86222.qmail@web14901.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <b0p61d+t6s1@eGroups.com>

Hi Kate,

--- Kate Tanski wrote:
> 15. Do you read every day?
> 
> a. Yes.
> b. No.
> c. No, but I would if I could.
> 
> 16. About how many hours per week do you read?
> 
> a. 1-5 hours.
> b. 6-10 hours.
> c. 11-15 hours.
> d. 16-20 hours.
> e. 21 hours or more.

Do you mean "read" or "read fanfic"?

Sounds great research - I hope you post a link to your project when 
it's done.

Cheers,

Dumbledad.




From jenw118 at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 23 17:56:01 2003
From: jenw118 at yahoo.com (Jennifer R. Wilson)
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 09:56:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Cover questions...
Message-ID: <20030123175601.34440.qmail@web14003.mail.yahoo.com>


Hi everyone!  I've been meaning to ask this, but I wanted to check another store first.  

 

Are they selling the adult HP books in the US now?  The last fww times I've gone to Wal-Mart, I've seen "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets" in a solid red with gold/silver print text.  

Is this one of the "adult covers"?  I just found it interesting, though I didn't have the time to really look and see if there are any differences.  CoS was the only Potter book I saw with this definitely more adult looking cover.

For my birthday, my sister gave me a $25 giftcard to Hastings.  I finally managed to get the Harry Potter books!  I've been waiting for over a year for this.  I did look there for the above cover, but as we had to go to the children's section to get my books, we didn't see any but the cartoon-like covers.

I'm so happy, now I can _finally_ join in the canon discussions on the main list :)

Jennifer



---------------------------------
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Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From chrisnlorrie at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 23 18:54:38 2003
From: chrisnlorrie at yahoo.com (alora <chrisnlorrie@yahoo.com>)
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 18:54:38 -0000
Subject: Pre-Ordering From Amazon
In-Reply-To: <b0p28t+7ulu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b0pdpe+dj9a@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "craigf4656 
<craigf4656 at h...>" <craigf4656 at h...> wrote:
> Sorry this is late -
> 
> It's probably a computer glitch.  Amazon has been very unreliable 
lately.  I 
> ordered the "Harry Potter's World" collection in December - B&N 
had it listed 
> as having been published September 2002; Amazon said it wouldn't 
be 
> published until February 2003 and I could preorder.  I of course 
got it from BN 
> just fine.  I noticed this same problem when ordering some text 
books a few 
> weeks ago for class - BN had stuff Amazon listed as not even 
published.  
> Something's very funky with Amazon.
> 
> Craig

Craig, I had the same problem when I went to order an older movie 
soundtrack a couple of weeks ago.  It told me it couldn't ship until 
Feb. 2003, when the movie was released in 2001.  I thought it was 
odd, but I went ahead and ordered it because I couldn't find it 
anywhere else.  Lo and behold, I got it in the mail less than a week 
later.  Weird, isn't it?  I just wanted you to know that you were no 
the only one!  :)

Alora




From shufan90 at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 23 18:56:07 2003
From: shufan90 at yahoo.com (shufan)
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 10:56:07 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Cover questions...
In-Reply-To: <20030123175601.34440.qmail@web14003.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20030123185607.94346.qmail@web80011.mail.yahoo.com>

Yes, those are the "adult" covers.  That is how I got started reading the HP books, I purchased one of the adult cover paperbacks of SS while in line at the grocery store after seeing the movie.  The adult versions are no different from the children's version, because  I recently purchased all of the books in hardcover as a gift to myself, to have a matching set of course, and to get free shipping for Book 5.  
 
Enjoy
One Jennifer to another.


 "Jennifer R. Wilson" <jenw118 at yahoo.com> wrote:
Hi everyone!  I've been meaning to ask this, but I wanted to check another store first.  

Are they selling the adult HP books in the US now?  The last fww times I've gone to Wal-Mart, I've seen "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets" in a solid red with gold/silver print text.  

Is this one of the "adult covers"?  I just found it interesting, though I didn't have the time to really look and see if there are any differences.  CoS was the only Potter book I saw with this definitely more adult looking cover.

For my birthday, my sister gave me a $25 giftcard to Hastings.  I finally managed to get the Harry Potter books!  I've been waiting for over a year for this.  I did look there for the above cover, but as we had to go to the children's section to get my books, we didn't see any but the cartoon-like covers.

I'm so happy, now I can _finally_ join in the canon discussions on the main list :)

Jennifer





From jenP_97 at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 23 19:31:57 2003
From: jenP_97 at yahoo.com (Jennifer Piersol <jenP_97@yahoo.com>)
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 19:31:57 -0000
Subject: Cover questions...
In-Reply-To: <20030123185607.94346.qmail@web80011.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <b0pfvd+kses@eGroups.com>

Sorry - seeing all the Jennifers made me want to respond.

Technically, these are *not* the "adult" covers.  The adult covers are
a UK phenomenon, where they put a b/w photo (of some kind) on the
front of a book, whether hardcover or trade paperback.  By trade
paperback, I'm talking about the large versions (usually about 5.25" x
8") with the same cover illustrations as the hardcover's dust jacket.

The books you're talking about (text only, no pictures) are the "mass
market paperback" versions of the book, which differ in that they're
the standard 4"x7" size, with "cheap" (IMO) paper and they usually
cost around $4 (US).

So while there is no "adult cover" available as such in the US, the
mass market paperback versions are as close as you could get - and you
might as well think of them as such.

Yet another Jennifer (JenP), putting away her measuring tape.

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, shufan <shufan90 at y...> wrote:
> Yes, those are the "adult" covers.  That is how I got started
reading the HP books, I purchased one of the adult cover paperbacks of
SS while in line at the grocery store after seeing the movie.  The
adult versions are no different from the children's version, because 
I recently purchased all of the books in hardcover as a gift to
myself, to have a matching set of course, and to get free shipping for
Book 5.  
>  
> Enjoy
> One Jennifer to another.
> 
> 
>  "Jennifer R. Wilson" <jenw118 at y...> wrote:
> Hi everyone!  I've been meaning to ask this, but I wanted to check
another store first.  
> 
> Are they selling the adult HP books in the US now?  The last fww
times I've gone to Wal-Mart, I've seen "Harry Potter and the Chamber
of Secrets" in a solid red with gold/silver print text.  
> 
> Is this one of the "adult covers"?  I just found it interesting,
though I didn't have the time to really look and see if there are any
differences.  CoS was the only Potter book I saw with this definitely
more adult looking cover.

> 
> Jennifer




From enemy2oftheheir at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 23 23:11:23 2003
From: enemy2oftheheir at yahoo.com (*Jamie*)
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 15:11:23 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Abbreviation question
In-Reply-To: <b0jisd+f3e8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20030123231123.45374.qmail@web14506.mail.yahoo.com>


>From one who is a shipper herself, H is supposed to be Harry, whereas Hr is supposed to be Hermione. H/Hr is Harry/Hermione. I personally use first and last initials to be understood. HP/HG, or whatever. If one is a shipper, they usually know the abbreviations really well so they can avoid pairings they dislike or enjoy. I hope that helped!
 "David <dfrankiswork at netscape.net>" <dfrankiswork at netscape.net> wrote:In some shipping discussions there is a clear danger of not knowing 
whether H stands for Harry or Hermione.

May I ask in what possible sense the abbreviation Hr is supposed to 
help resolve the ambiguity?

David, who notes that ron already seems to be in Hermione


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From timregan at microsoft.com  Fri Jan 24 00:09:02 2003
From: timregan at microsoft.com (Tim Regan <timregan@microsoft.com>)
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 00:09:02 -0000
Subject: Cover questions...
In-Reply-To: <b0pfvd+kses@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b0q06u+e2c0@eGroups.com>

Hi All,

--- Jennifer Piersol wrote:
> The adult covers are a UK phenomenon, where they put
> a b/w photo (of some kind) on the front of a book, 

I don't own any but they do look really good:
http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/0747542988.02.LZZZZZZZ.jpg
http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/0747544077.02.LZZZZZZZ.jpg
http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/0747546347.02.LZZZZZZZ.jpg
http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/0747550794.02.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

Still my favourites have to be the German covers:
http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/3551551677.03.LZZZZZZZ.jpg
http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/3551551685.03.LZZZZZZZ.jpg
http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/3551551693.03.LZZZZZZZ.jpg
http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/3551551936.03.LZZZZZZZ.jpg
Very cabinet-of-dr-caligari-esque.

Aren't JKR's favorites the US kid's covers (cannot remember where - 
or if - I read that)?


Cheers,


Dumbledad.




From timregan at microsoft.com  Fri Jan 24 01:03:19 2003
From: timregan at microsoft.com (Tim Regan <timregan@microsoft.com>)
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 01:03:19 -0000
Subject: Cover questions...
In-Reply-To: <b0q06u+e2c0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b0q3cn+ga58@eGroups.com>

Hi All,

--- Dumbledad wrote:
> --- Jennifer Piersol wrote:
> > The adult covers are a UK phenomenon, where they put
> > a b/w photo (of some kind) on the front of a book, 
> 
> I don't own any but they do look really good:
> http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/0747542988.02.LZZZZZZZ.jpg
> http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/0747544077.02.LZZZZZZZ.jpg
> http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/0747546347.02.LZZZZZZZ.jpg
> http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/0747550794.02.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

Replying to one's own posts is probably an early sign of madness, 
but I've just noticed that there are special adult (or at least non-
cartoon) covers in germany too:
http://www.carlsen.de/images/kibu/cover_m/155200_mp.jpg
http://www.carlsen.de/images/kibu/cover_m/155209_mp.jpg
http://www.carlsen.de/images/kibu/cover_m/155210_mp.jpg
http://www.carlsen.de/images/kibu/cover_m/155253_mp.jpg


Cheers,


Herr Professor Dumbledad.




From urbana at charter.net  Fri Jan 24 01:25:33 2003
From: urbana at charter.net (Anne <urbana@charter.net>)
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 01:25:33 -0000
Subject: Cover questions...
In-Reply-To: <b0q06u+e2c0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b0q4md+3vpq@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Tim Regan <timregan at m...>" 
<timregan at m...> wrote:
 > Still my favourites have to be the German covers:
> http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/3551551677.03.LZZZZZZZ.jpg
> http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/3551551685.03.LZZZZZZZ.jpg
> http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/3551551693.03.LZZZZZZZ.jpg
> http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/3551551936.03.LZZZZZZZ.jpg
> Very cabinet-of-dr-caligari-esque.
 
Actually if you remove Harry's glasses, he bears a bit of a 
resemblance to the character Dieter from "Sprockets" (pronounced 
SHPROCKETS) on Saturday Night Live...

Anne U
(who likes the Mary GrandPre' Harry and proudly carries her 
*children's* HP paperbacks)




From scifispice80 at yahoo.com  Fri Jan 24 06:33:52 2003
From: scifispice80 at yahoo.com (scifispice80 <scifispice80@yahoo.com>)
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 06:33:52 -0000
Subject: livejournal and deadjournal
Message-ID: <b0qmog+osob@eGroups.com>

Hey you guys, sorry for the random ot post, but I'm going wonky 
here?  Does anyone have a livejournal or deadjournal code I can use?  
I've been trying to find one for weeks, and no luck.  Can anyone help 
me out?  It would be much appreciated.


scifispice80





From karnasaur at yahoo.com  Fri Jan 24 12:51:01 2003
From: karnasaur at yahoo.com (Kristjan Arnason)
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 04:51:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: German covers
In-Reply-To: <1043409520.453.21616.m12@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20030124125101.8969.qmail@web10412.mail.yahoo.com>

http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/3551551936.03.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

Wow.  The Germans actually have a single word for
"Goblet of Fire."

__________________________________________________
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From heidit at netbox.com  Fri Jan 24 17:40:55 2003
From: heidit at netbox.com (heiditandy)
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 12:40:55 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] LOON correction Re: Banter and other SHIP subjects
In-Reply-To: <b0rtcb+5nml@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <051601c2c3cf$c0ab3ed0$0301a8c0@Frodo>

Pippin wrote, on the Main List:  
> >  On the way  to Hogwarts, Harry meets seven males (Ron,
> Fred, 
> > George, Draco, Crabbe, Goyle and Neville, not counting
> > Scabbers/Pettigrew) and three females (Molly, Hermione, and 
> > Ginny) only two of whom are eligible. Ron meets exactly one, 
> and  she's looking for a toad. 
> 
> I left out Percy! How could I! Slam my ears in the oven door and 
> bake them. And the trolley lady too, of course. But I don't think 
> we're meant to consider her eligible. 
> 
> (Firmly stomps on plot-bunny about what Ron and the trolley lady 
> did in the baggage compartment)
> 

I don't really want to start the Weirdest SHIPs thread again, but I did
want to point out that on FA, someone once started the Harry/Ice Lolly
Lady SHIP, because she was the most obscure character in the books that
they could come up with. So who knows what role the Trolly Lady will
play in later books?


heidi




From waterdogn at aol.com  Fri Jan 24 20:57:22 2003
From: waterdogn at aol.com (waterdogn <waterdogn@aol.com>)
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 20:57:22 -0000
Subject: German covers
In-Reply-To: <20030124125101.8969.qmail@web10412.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <b0s9bi+3vui@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Kristjan Arnason 
<karnasaur at y...> wrote:
> http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/3551551936.03.LZZZZZZZ.jpg
> 
> Wow.  The Germans actually have a single word for
> "Goblet of Fire."

In the German language, you can sometimes turn a whole *sentence* 
into a single word! <g>

It's actually pretty interesting - when you try to look up an 
apparently compound word, you won't find it in the dictionary. You 
have to sort of intelligently break up the word into it's component 
parts, look up *those*, and then try to figure out what the word 
means.

My favorite online German dictionary:

http://dict.leo.org/

Robin Nicholls
Waterdogn @ aol.com
Southern California




From kokobreen at juno.com  Sat Jan 25 01:14:32 2003
From: kokobreen at juno.com (chrisitne m breen)
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 19:14:32 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] livejournal and deadjournal
Message-ID: <20030124.191432.-43889.1.kokobreen@juno.com>

I've got a bunch on my lj today  kokopoko.livejournal.com

Christine

On Fri, 24 Jan 2003 06:33:52 -0000 "scifispice80
<scifispice80 at yahoo.com>" <scifispice80 at yahoo.com> writes:
> Hey you guys, sorry for the random ot post, but I'm going wonky 
> here?  Does anyone have a livejournal or deadjournal code I can use? 
>  
> I've been trying to find one for weeks, and no luck.  Can anyone 
> help 
> me out?  It would be much appreciated.
> 
> 
> scifispice80
> 
> 
> 
> ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________
> 
> Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the group's Admin 
> Files!
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/
> 
> Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary 
> material from posts to which you're replying!
> 
> Is your message...
> An announcement of merchandise, news etc.? Send it to 
> HPFGU-Announcements.
> Movie-related? Send it to HPFGU-Movie.
> Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups.
> None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter.
> Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- 
> MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com
> 
> Unsubscribing? Email HPFGU-OTChatter-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
> ____________________________________________________________ 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 
> 
> 



From macloudt at yahoo.co.uk  Sat Jan 25 09:30:12 2003
From: macloudt at yahoo.co.uk (Mary Ann <macloudt@yahoo.co.uk>)
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 09:30:12 -0000
Subject: Birthday Greetings!
Message-ID: <b0tlf4+u5o2@eGroups.com>

:::::throws bags of confetti around the room and puts two cakes on 
the table:::::

That's right, we have two birthdays today, Amanda (esdgrrl) and one 
of our Filk Meisters, Gail Bohacek!  Greetings for Amanda and Gail 
can be sent to the List.

Have a fabulous birthday, Amanda and Gail, and I hope you both have 
lots of HP goodies!

Mary Ann
(TBE)




From heidit at netbox.com  Sat Jan 25 13:45:11 2003
From: heidit at netbox.com (heiditandy <heidit@netbox.com>)
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 13:45:11 -0000
Subject: Global virus thingy - (i.e. why FictionAlley and HPfGU.org are down)
Message-ID: <b0u4d7+tht0@eGroups.com>

The servers for FictionAlley and HpfGU (including the fantastic 
posts) will be down for a while - this is an unexpected downtime, 
and is, as we understand it, caused by the same attack that is 
described <a 
href="http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/internet/01/25/internet.attack.ap/
index.html">here</a>. 

Please stay tuned to the http://www.livejournal.com/~faupdate LJ  
for server update information (or if the mods are ok with it, we'll 
post here too) to keep updated as much as you can. As a side note, 
FA's email is also down, but the HPfGU mods' usual address is working

heidi tandy




From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Jan 25 20:38:44 2003
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston) <catlady@wicca.net>)
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 20:38:44 -0000
Subject: Happy Birthdays!/Book Covers/Rookwood (with digression on Malfoys)
Message-ID: <b0uskk+t4oc@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Mary Ann <macloudt at y...>" 
<macloudt at y...> wrote:
> :::::throws bags of confetti around the room and puts two cakes 

which are NOT spiked with a simple sleeping potion

> on the table:::::
> 
> That's right, we have two birthdays today, Amanda (esdgrrl) and one 
> of our Filk Meisters, Gail Bohacek!  Greetings for Amanda and Gail 
> can be sent to the List.
> 
> Have a fabulous birthday, Amanda and Gail, and I hope you both have 
> lots of HP goodies!
> 
> Mary Ann
> (TBE)

It's Amanda and Gail's birthday! It's Amanda and Gail's birthday! 
*does the cheering-for-Amanda-and-Gail dance*

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Tim Regan" <timregan at m...> 
wrote:

> Still my favourites have to be the German covers:
> http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/3551551677.03.LZZZZZZZ.jpg
> http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/3551551685.03.LZZZZZZZ.jpg
> http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/3551551693.03.LZZZZZZZ.jpg
> http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/3551551936.03.LZZZZZZZ.jpg
> Very cabinet-of-dr-caligari-esque.

I've never liked those German covers, because they make Harry look 
like a villain (okay, in the GoF cover, new to me, they make Harry 
look like a loony rather than like a villain, but *still*).

I like the French covers because they are accurate to the books:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Graphics/Book-relate
d%20Graphics/frenchhp/

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Brian" <bkb042 at y...> wrote:
> This could be an interesting little parallel that I've found. 
> 
> It's generally accepted that Fawkes the phoenix is named after Guy 
> Fawkes of Gunpowder Plot fame. While researching the plot, I found 
> the name of one of his co-conspirators: Ambrose Rookwood. Is 
> Ambrose the gr gr gr gr grandfather of Augustus (mentioned in GoF)?
> Did JKR use this surname knowingly? If so, what could it portend?

Ambrose Rookwood, what a lovely name. I have no idea what the name 
"Rookwood" means to JKR, but to me, first of all it sounds classy, so 
in my Potterverse, the Rookwoods are an old aristocratic wizarding 
family like the Crouches and IMHO the Fudges and the Notts, people 
with whom the Malfoys mingle and intermarry.

(Digression on the MALFOYS: while the name is Norman, I don't believe 
the family is Norman. I think they were there before the Normans, but 
translated their name to fit in with the winning side after the 
Conquest. I don't know how to say "bad faith" in Saxon, Welsh, Roman, 
Pictish, Beaker People-ish, and Atlantean. But I found a possible 
Malfoy ancestor in the Patrick Ford translation of the Mabinogion, 
in the tale of Culhwch and Olwen, when listing the men of Arthur's 
Court: one is "Tathal Twyll Golau whose treachery was patent".)

Second, I fixated on "rook", which is a black bird like a raven or a 
crow, so I imagine the Rookwoods as all black-haired, dark-eyed, and 
slightly (more tan)/(less dead fish-belly white) than the typical 
indoor-confined Brit, and I'm working on names for my Rookwoods like 
Corva and Cole. Dunno if Rafe and Branwen would be obvious enough. 
Meanwhile, the combination of "black" and "wood" is leads me to 
"burnt"... 

Third, "rook" is also a chess piece, the one called "castle". (The 
piece Hermione plays in finale of Book 1.) I can't figure out what to 
do with this association except to give them family arms of: on a 
green background, a silver tower on which perches a black corvid, 
wings closed.




From heidit at netbox.com  Sat Jan 25 22:07:19 2003
From: heidit at netbox.com (Heidi Tandy)
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 18:07:19 -0400
Subject: FictionAlley and HPfGU.org.uk
Message-ID: <mailman.27.1576049042.5361.hpfgu-otchatter@archive.hpfgu.org>

About an our ago, our provider overcame their problems
relating to the attacks and FictionAlley.org and the hpfgu site where the Fantastic Posts and other things are hosted are finally available again. 





From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Jan 26 04:20:23 2003
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston) <catlady@wicca.net>)
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 04:20:23 -0000
Subject: Lots of Notts
Message-ID: <b0vnm7+va1b@eGroups.com>

Sparked by Ginger Snape's observation that the Nott in the Death 
Eater circle was too old to have a kid Harry and Neville's age. I 
promised some people (who probably aren't the least interested) that 
I would write an OT post about the Nott family in MY Potterverse.

Because in MY Potterverse (do I have to keep saying that?), the Nott 
in the Death Eater circle is 135 years old at that time, and DOES 
have a kid Harry and Neville's age. Muggle men can father children 
when in their 70s, especially if they have a new young wife, and 
wizarding folk live longer and age slower (when adult) than Muggles, 
and therefore I don't find it implausible that he had another child 
when he was 120 years old. (Based on Dumbledore being 150, I figure 
wizarding 135 is old enough to be 'stooped' and not too old to still 
be working).

I made the Nott kid in Harry's year (i.e. 15 at the end of GoF) a 
Slytherin (but not evil) girl named Regina. THEN QTTA was pubblished 
and one of the names on it's check-out sheet was T. Nott. If only I 
had known, I could have named her Treasure instead of Regina ... So 
the T. Nott has to be in an older year: *two* Notts at Hogwarts. 

Meanwhile, I had already built backstory in which Regina has a nephew 
her same age, specifically Vincent Crabbe, whose mother is the former 
Centennia (vinCENT - CENTennia, get it?) Nott, whose mother named her 
Centennia in honor of being born in her father's 100th year. Because 
Nellie (the mother) is a sweet, family-loving, good-keeping doll of 
a Hufflepuff almost 80 years younger than her husband... Nott married 
her because she makes her husband comfortable and didn't particularly 
want (more) children, but agreed to *one* (Tenny) because Nellie 
insisted... 

Regina came along for the same reason Tenny was married off: 
Voldemort or Lucius Malfoy having discovered the prophecy of a 
great wizard who would be born on Lammas of 1980 ordered all his 
Death Eater followers to go and procreate in an attempt to get the 
special child born into his power ... 

So who is T. Nott? Nott's *grandson* -- Reggie has a grand-nephew 
OLDER than she is! Nott must have had some kind of first marriage all 
those years before Nellie was even born, and a son from it. Here is 
where I partly agree with THIRD NOTT RUBBER DUCKY -- this middle Nott 
took the fall to protect his father -- confessed not only to his own 
Death Eating crimes but to putting his father under Imperius -- 
because some adult male of the family has to survive to make sure the 
children are raised to protect the family name -- however, I have no 
idea if he got out again to attack the Longbottoms.

Similarly, in MY Potterverse, when Department of Magical Law 
Enforcement got the goods on Augustus Rookwood, he protected his 
family lineage by confessing to having put his (uncanonical) son 
under Imperius... 




From HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com  Sun Jan 26 05:47:12 2003
From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com (HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 26 Jan 2003 05:47:12 -0000
Subject: Reminder - Weekly Chat 
Message-ID: <1043560032.19.4399.m9@yahoogroups.com>


We would like to remind you of this upcoming event.

Weekly Chat 

Date: Sunday, January 26, 2003 
Time: All Day

Hi everyone! Don't forget, chat happens today, 11 am Pacific, 2
pm Eastern, 7 pm UK time. Go into any Yahoo chat room and type
/join HP:1 
For further info, see the Humongous BigFile, section 3.3.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/hbfile.html#33

Hope to see you there! 

 





From the.gremlin at verizon.net  Mon Jan 27 05:52:36 2003
From: the.gremlin at verizon.net (ats_fhc3 <the.gremlin@verizon.net>)
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 05:52:36 -0000
Subject: House Colors
Message-ID: <b12hf4+1ooe@eGroups.com>

Okay, I'm making Harry Potter scarfs for my friends and me, and we 
can't recall Ravenclaw's House colors. I know it's blue and 
something, but what's the something? We think silver, and I'm too 
lazy to go through all 4 books. 

-Acire, who is taking the Slytherin one for herself...yay Snape.




From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Mon Jan 27 06:47:25 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve <bboy_mn@yahoo.com>)
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 06:47:25 -0000
Subject: Dragon Reserch Center - Romania - MAPS
Message-ID: <b12klt+rdlf@eGroups.com>

Well it took me a while but I have finally finished my search of
Romania for the Wizard's Dragon Research Center, and you get to be the
first people to see the fruit of my labor.

See my Exclusive Satellite Maps and get a up close and personal view
of Romania; 11 full color maps and 7 exclusive photos of the Research
Center. Sorry, no photo of Charlie Weasley; maybe next time.

http://www.homestead.com/BlueMoonMarket/Files/Hogwarts/RomDragCenter.html

Alternate:
http://BlueMoonMarket.homestead.com/Files/Hogwarts/RomDragCenter.html

This is a non-commerial website.


For Satellite Maps of Scotland and Hogwarts see-
http://www.homestead.com/BlueMoonMarket/Files/Hogwarts/hogwarts1.htm

[Alternative]

http://BlueMoonMarket.homestead.com/Files/Hogwarts/hogwarts1.htm

Images are about 100k each.

I will have a new map of Peeble and it's location relative to the rail
lines coming soon.

PS: Only the first couple of pages have background, so the others
should load relatively fast.

Enjoy.

bboy_mn






From lupinesque at yahoo.com  Mon Jan 27 09:44:24 2003
From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z <lupinesque@yahoo.com>)
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 09:44:24 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] LOON correction Re: Banter and other SHIP subjects
In-Reply-To: <051601c2c3cf$c0ab3ed0$0301a8c0@Frodo>
Message-ID: <b12v1o+ombd@eGroups.com>

Heidi wrote:

> I don't really want to start the Weirdest SHIPs thread again, but I 
did
> want to point out that on FA, someone once started the Harry/Ice 
Lolly
> Lady SHIP, because she was the most obscure character in the books 
that
> they could come up with.

She does smile at him.  I've seen SHIPS with less basis than that.

Amy
joining the good ship H/ILL




From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Mon Jan 27 09:54:42 2003
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David <dfrankiswork@netscape.net>)
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 09:54:42 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] LOON correction Re: Banter and other SHIP subjects
In-Reply-To: <051601c2c3cf$c0ab3ed0$0301a8c0@Frodo>
Message-ID: <b12vl2+3rjv@eGroups.com>

Heidi wrote:

> I don't really want to start the Weirdest SHIPs thread again, 

Why ever not?

David, who didn't have time to submit his Vernon/Molly ship to the 
contest




From renitentraven at hotmail.com  Mon Jan 27 10:04:34 2003
From: renitentraven at hotmail.com (Lisa Armstrong <renitentraven@hotmail.com>)
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 10:04:34 -0000
Subject: HP fans from Sydney, Australia
Message-ID: <b1307i+ued4@eGroups.com>

 Any Sydney fans?
 Yep here I am.
 I'm sure there's more of us, but Autralian HP fans are by the large 
a quiet lot. (You should see our very silent home page, but I'm 
working on it. ;) )
 I'm not sure what exactly your interests are regarding of the beaten 
track, you seem to have the tourist things covered.
 The zoo's great, have your photo taken with a koala (watch out, they 
smell), the Warner Brothers store in the Queen Victoria Building will 
have all your HP merchandise needs, but I'll confess to not having 
seen much I havn't seen on the American sites.
 If you like different the Rocks markets on weekends have alot of 
craft wares on display, (some is tourist trappy so beware) but while 
you're there look for the Puppet Shop. The sign is inconspicuous, so 
ask, you should be directed you down the flight of stairs of an 
original convict built home, you will find a host of wooden hand-
crafted marionettes that haven't failed to amaze anyone I've taken 
there.
You will literally be walking amongst hundreds suspended from the 
cave-like ceilings. Some of them over a hundred years old.
They have Tin-tins and a few modern characters so *maybe* they'll do 
up a HP on request. (I have no idea, I just love this shop.)
So there is *something* different that's free, unless you fall for a 
puppet. (Likely to happen.)
 If you fancy spending money I'd climb the Bridge, but pick the climb 
that leaves on dusk. That way you see the harbour nicely going up, 
and all the lights nicely going down. Everyone that's done it says 
this is the best option. (Just don't look down, the steps are 
industrial mesh.)
 If you want to have a Survivor type experience there are a ton of 
day trips that specialise in taking tourists out for bush-tucker 
day-trips etc.
We are in the middle of some pretty wild bush-fires at the moment, so 
while Sydney itself is fine, I can't say what the surrounding areas 
will be like come Febuary.
 
I'm not sure what your *thing* is so feel free to email me if you had 
something specific in mind.

 Cheers, Lisa




From sushi at societyhappens.com  Mon Jan 27 10:10:30 2003
From: sushi at societyhappens.com (Sushi)
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 04:10:30 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] House Colors
In-Reply-To: <b12hf4+1ooe@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030127040724.00cd6350@mail.societyhappens.com>

At 05:52 AM 1/27/03 +0000, you wrote:
>Okay, I'm making Harry Potter scarfs for my friends and me, and we
>can't recall Ravenclaw's House colors. I know it's blue and
>something, but what's the something? We think silver, and I'm too
>lazy to go through all 4 books.
>
>-Acire, who is taking the Slytherin one for herself...yay Snape.

         Bronze, although the ties in the movies were blue and silver (go 
figure).  The list, colour first and metal second, is:

         Slytherin: Green and silver
         Ravenclaw: Blue and bronze
         Hufflepuff: Yellow and black (lead, if you want to get technical)
         Gryffindor: Red and gold

Sushi, who's done too much research on this sort of thing


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From sally at gristiegraphics.co.uk  Mon Jan 27 10:48:26 2003
From: sally at gristiegraphics.co.uk (sallygrist <sally@gristiegraphics.co.uk>)
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 10:48:26 -0000
Subject: Monty Python Influences
Message-ID: <b132pq+pek8@eGroups.com>

Dear all,

I appologise if this is actually common knowledge, but I'll post this 
message anyway for the benefit of those who were unaware. 

I've read in interviews that JK is a great fan of British comedy, and 
loves Monty Python, but I didn't realise quite the extent to which 
their work has influenced her writing.

While settling down late last night to watch an old repeat of Monty 
Python Live at the Hollywood Bowl on Paramount Comedy, I was dozing 
off to sleep when a sketch entitled 'The Whizzo Chocolate Factory' 
caught my attention. 

"Sounds a bit like something from Harry Potter", I mused to myself. 
And sure enough as the scene unfurled I was thrilled to discover the 
obvious inspiration behind some of JK's sweets, namely Chocolate 
Frogs, Cockroach Clusters and some extensive talk of lark's vomit 
confectionary.  

The full sketch can be read here: (WARNING, contains plenty of the 
usual Monty Python language so don't read if you're easily offended)

http://members.tripod.com/~dr_zeuss42/Sketches.html

Do the guys from Monty Python really know the full extent of their 
influence? And does anyone else know of any other unlikely influences 
that they've stumbled upon?

Sally





From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com  Mon Jan 27 14:22:49 2003
From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 09:22:49 EST
Subject: Favourite Quotes 
Message-ID: <17f.15dcef67.2b669ab9@aol.com>

There's a thread going on the main list about favourite quotes from the Harry 
Potter books, so I thought I should start a thread about favourite quotes 
from....anything! Books, movies, bumperstickers, actually people....even 
fanfiction you liked. Be they funny, heart felt, or whatever...post them 
here! 

I'm very tired right now and I'll probably have more later, but one of mine 
is: 

(I've only seen LotR: FotR twice, and I can't remember EXACTLY how this goes, 
but those who have seen the movie will know what I'm talking about) 

Frodo: You can't help me, Sam. I'm going alone.. 

Sam: I know you are, Mr. Frodo! And I'm coming with you!  

I love it! It's funny, dramatic, and heartfelt at the same time (again, if 
you've seen the movie you'll know what I'm talking about ^^) 

~Cassie~   



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From chrisnlorrie at yahoo.com  Mon Jan 27 15:11:52 2003
From: chrisnlorrie at yahoo.com (alora <chrisnlorrie@yahoo.com>)
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 15:11:52 -0000
Subject: Favourite Quotes
In-Reply-To: <17f.15dcef67.2b669ab9@aol.com>
Message-ID: <b13i7o+10bn9@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, IAmLordCassandra at a... wrote:
> There's a thread going on the main list about favourite quotes 
from the Harry 
> Potter books, so I thought I should start a thread about favourite 
quotes 
> from....anything! Books, movies, bumperstickers, actually 
people....even 
> fanfiction you liked. Be they funny, heart felt, or 
whatever...post them 
> here! 


Hehe, good idea!  I have to say that one of my favorite quotes is on 
a bumper sticker I saw on ebay.  Someone had made it themselves, and 
it was a spoof from the "Got Milk?"  advertising campaign.  It had a 
picture of Snape (one of the newer ones from the CoS calendar) and 
it said "Got Snape?"  on it.  I thought it was hilarious! :D


Another one is a bumper sticker having to do with LOTR.  It said on 
it, "You......shall not......PASS!"   Hehehe.  Corny, I know, but I 
love it.

Alora





From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Mon Jan 27 15:12:09 2003
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David <dfrankiswork@netscape.net>)
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 15:12:09 -0000
Subject: Favourite Quotes
In-Reply-To: <17f.15dcef67.2b669ab9@aol.com>
Message-ID: <b13i89+3kd8@eGroups.com>

Cassie wrote:

> I thought I should start a thread about favourite quotes 
> from....anything! 

I'm having favourite quote overload at the moment, reading Lemony 
Snicket.  Here are two, which I can't quite get verbatim.

>From The Reptile Room:

(Uncle Monty is explaining herpetology to the Baudelaire 
children) "...and on no account to let the Virginian Wolfsnake near 
a typewriter."

>From Lemony Snicket: The Unauthorised Autobiography (that title 
alone deserves a prize):

"Another editor's note: Some of the photographs in this collection 
were taken by Julie Blattberg."  Beside it is stuck a yellow sticky 
saying: "Rewrite another editor's note to say 'Some of the 
photographs in this collection were not taken by Julie Blattberg'"

Given that the UA has a character called Esme Squalor, I think this 
is a series that is redefining the boundary between adult and 
children's fiction with a vengeance.

David




From urbana at charter.net  Mon Jan 27 18:02:17 2003
From: urbana at charter.net (Anne <urbana@charter.net>)
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 18:02:17 -0000
Subject: Fwd:  Harry Potter and the Chamber of Obsessed Readers
Message-ID: <b13s79+hd54@eGroups.com>

Moving this topic from the main list to here, I'll begin with my 
original post from earlier this morning:


I just discovered at least 50 (and possibly 70) new messages since I 
last read this message board last night. So it got me to wondering 
something that probably should be moved to the OT-Chatter list 
immediately: Does anyone of the 5,700+ members of this group read 
*every* message? (and if so, when do you find time to do anything 
else?? :-) I assume the mods have to read all the messages, but does 
anyone else? I'm not trying to be snide, I just realized that there's 
no way on earth I'll ever be able to read all the messages on this 
list AND do other things I'm supposed to be doing (like, uh, working 
at my job, which is what I should be doing right now). 

I really love reading what people have to say (even the 12K messages)
so I'm feeling a bit depressed that I will certainly have to miss out 
on many of the insights that people bring to this discussion. Like 
Hermione, I guess I want to be able to do it all, and realize that I 
really can't :-(

***

Well -- what about the 1,100+ members of THIS group? The traffic on 
this list isn't usually excessive but how many of y'all read all the 
messages on the main list??

Anne U
(who wouldn't be able to handle a Time Turner at my age even if I 
were a witch)
 





From jmmears at comcast.net  Mon Jan 27 18:40:47 2003
From: jmmears at comcast.net (serenadust <jmmears@comcast.net>)
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 18:40:47 -0000
Subject: Fwd:  Harry Potter and the Chamber of Obsessed Readers
In-Reply-To: <b13s79+hd54@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b13uff+6a4d@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Anne <urbana at c...>" 
> I just discovered at least 50 (and possibly 70) new messages since 
I 
> last read this message board last night. So it got me to wondering 
> something that probably should be moved to the OT-Chatter list 
> immediately: Does anyone of the 5,700+ members of this group read 
> *every* message? (and if so, when do you find time to do anything 
> else?? :-) I assume the mods have to read all the messages, but 
does 
> anyone else? I'm not trying to be snide, I just realized that 
there's 
> no way on earth I'll ever be able to read all the messages on this 
> list AND do other things I'm supposed to be doing (like, uh, 
working 
> at my job, which is what I should be doing right now). 
> 
> I really love reading what people have to say (even the 12K 
messages)
> so I'm feeling a bit depressed that I will certainly have to miss 
out 
> on many of the insights that people bring to this discussion. Like 
> Hermione, I guess I want to be able to do it all, and realize that 
I 
> really can't :-(

> Well -- what about the 1,100+ members of THIS group? The traffic 
on 
> this list isn't usually excessive but how many of y'all read all 
the 
> messages on the main list??


Well, this is really embarrassing to admit, but I've only recently 
discovered that not everyone *does* read all the messages on the 
main list, the movie list, and this one.  I'm even so idiotic as to 
read all the ones posted when I'm away for a weekend or vacation.  
Sometimes it takes weeks to catch up, but I do it.

How do I do it?  Well, I really do have a life (I know what you're 
thinking), so mainly it's housework that suffers, I have very little 
time to read anything but the main parts of the newspaper, and it's 
been months since I've read an entire book (outside of re-checking 
HP canon), and I don't watch much TV.  Mainly, I check in 2 or 3 
times a day and read for about 20 minutes at a time, although 
sometimes (OK, often)I stay up pretty late at night after my 
family's in bed.

Why do I do it?  It's an addiction, I guess.  I know I've never, 
ever done anything like it before.  I never even heard the 
word "fandom" before finding this group, and have never participated 
in any other on-line community before.  Since the recent dramatic 
increase in volume on the list, I have started "skimming" the posts 
on the topics which don't interest me, but I'm beginning to think 
I'm going to have to give up trying to stay current.  It's just 
gotten too big and too active.  I am afraid to imagine how it will 
be after June 21.

Jo Serenadust, who hates to miss anything anyone has to say on the 
subject of Harry Potter.  HELP!




From aaoconnor2002 at yahoo.com  Mon Jan 27 17:36:59 2003
From: aaoconnor2002 at yahoo.com (aaoconnor2002 <aaoconnor2002@yahoo.com>)
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 17:36:59 -0000
Subject: Favourite Quotes
In-Reply-To: <b13i89+3kd8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b13qnr+l0c2@eGroups.com>

My all-time favorite quote comes from the original "Rudolph the Red 
Nosed Reindeer" Christmas special.  It is when Rudolph and Hermey the 
elf meet for the first time and find out that they both are misfits 
who don't fit in.  Hermey says, "Let's be independent, together!"

When I was a child I just thought this was funny.  It wasn't till I 
grew up that I realized that that line is actually quite profound.

Audrey





From jayemelle at earthlink.net  Mon Jan 27 23:56:30 2003
From: jayemelle at earthlink.net (tesseract197 <jayemelle@earthlink.net>)
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 23:56:30 -0000
Subject: Fwd:  Harry Potter and the Chamber of Obsessed Readers
In-Reply-To: <b13s79+hd54@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b14gve+73k0@eGroups.com>

Anne U:
what about the 1,100+ members of THIS group? The traffic on 
> this list isn't usually excessive but how many of y'all read all 
the 
> messages on the main list??

Me:
I'm a relatively new member of both lists, and I read the messages on 
the website, not through email.  I've quickly developed the habit of 
checking in a few times a day (generally during downtime at work, to 
take advantage of the faster connection speed) and heading to the 
message list.  I look at all of them, but generally if the subject 
line's not a thread I'm interested in, I click "Next" right away.  I 
only read the messages that apply to the threads I'm following, and 
even then I tend to skim or even skip the longer ones.  So no, 
although I do open every message in every thread, I don't even come 
close to reading all of them.

Tess




From Patty at backstreet-wallpaper.net  Tue Jan 28 00:31:27 2003
From: Patty at backstreet-wallpaper.net (Patty)
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 19:31:27 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Favourite Quotes
References: <17f.15dcef67.2b669ab9@aol.com>
Message-ID: <00f501c2c664$a5df4fa0$0101a8c0@pavilion>

One of my favorite quotes is from the movie A Walk To Remember. Landon (the lead male character) is reading quotes from a book and he reads this one first. This may not be verbatim.

"What is a friend? A friend is one soul residing in two bodies."


Patty


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From rvotaw at i-55.com  Tue Jan 28 01:26:53 2003
From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw)
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 19:26:53 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Favourite Quotes
References: <17f.15dcef67.2b669ab9@aol.com>
Message-ID: <018201c2c66c$57c4fb50$f79ccdd1@RVotaw>

Cassie writes:

> Frodo: You can't help me, Sam. I'm going alone.. 
>
> Sam: I know you are, Mr. Frodo! And I'm coming with you!  
>
> I love it! It's funny, dramatic, and heartfelt at the same time (again, if 
> you've seen the movie you'll know what I'm talking about ^^) 

And I'll probably mess this one up, also from LotR, but I just love it.  I think it's Pippin that says "You need intelligent people on this sort of mission . . . quest . . . thing."  And shortly after, "So, where are we going?"  Gets me every time!

Richelle


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From the.gremlin at verizon.net  Tue Jan 28 01:39:17 2003
From: the.gremlin at verizon.net (the.gremlin at verizon.net)
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 19:39:17 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Fwd:  Harry Potter and the Chamber of Obsessed Readers
Message-ID: <20030128013917.OOXD23484.out001.verizon.net@[127.0.0.1]>

Anne said:
"Well -- what about the 1,100+ members of THIS group? The traffic on this list isn't usually excessive but how many of y'all read all the messages on the main list??"

I delete everything that doesn't have the word 'Snape' in it. 

Actually, I don't have a life, so I have time to sit here and comb through everything. On top of that, I scan the message quickly, and if it's something I'm not interested in, or have lost interest in (MAGIC DISHWASHER, any sort of SHIPping, lots of FILKS, anything without the word 'Snape' in it :D). I can usually go down the line and check the subject. If I don't feel like doing that, I jsut check every message and scan.

That's how I do it.

-Acire, who should be doing her Spanish homework right now. That's also how I do it.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From the.gremlin at verizon.net  Tue Jan 28 01:47:16 2003
From: the.gremlin at verizon.net (the.gremlin at verizon.net)
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 19:47:16 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Favourite Quotes
Message-ID: <20030128014717.OQJR23484.out001.verizon.net@[127.0.0.1]>

Alora wrote:
"Hehe, good idea!  I have to say that one of my favorite quotes is on a bumper sticker I saw on ebay.  Someone had made it themselves, and it was a spoof from the "Got Milk?"  advertising campaign.  It had a picture of Snape (one of the newer ones from the CoS calendar) and it said "Got Snape?"  on it.  I thought it was hilarious! :D"

I want that bumper sticker! I've seen a bumper sticker that says 'The More People I Meet, the More I Like My Cat.'

Uhh, I can't recall a specific quote right now, but I did find it hysterical in the CoS movie trailer where Lockhart says "So sorry--dozed off--what've I missed?" It's part of my signature, on another address.

-Acire, who found an HP block calendar for $3 at Borders.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From Malady579 at hotmail.com  Tue Jan 28 02:47:39 2003
From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody <Malady579@hotmail.com>)
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 02:47:39 -0000
Subject: SnapeSnapeSnape (was: HP and the Obsessed Readers)
In-Reply-To: <20030128013917.OOXD23484.out001.verizon.net@[127.0.0.1]>
Message-ID: <b14r0b+gia0@eGroups.com>

Acire wrote:
>have lost interest in (MAGIC DISHWASHER, any sort of SHIPping, lots
of >FILKS, anything without the word 'Snape' in it :D)

I am slightly amused by that fact since there is no dishwasher without
Severus Snape.


Melody
who is sorry Acire finds MD uninteresting.  Maybe if we retitle it:
Snape's Oscar-worthy performance?  :)




From the.gremlin at verizon.net  Tue Jan 28 04:09:45 2003
From: the.gremlin at verizon.net (the.gremlin at verizon.net)
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 22:09:45 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: SnapeSnapeSnape (was: HP and the Obsessed Readers)
Message-ID: <20030128040945.TSTW20431.pop016.verizon.net@[192.168.129.98]>

Melody wrote:
"I am slightly amused by that fact since there is no dishwasher without Severus Snape."

Well, I've read the theories regarding Snape in MD, and I never really took to them, so I guess that's the once incident where I ignore the post bearing Snape's name. You got me. :D

"Melody who is sorry Acire finds MD uninteresting.  Maybe if we retitle it: Snape's Oscar-worthy performance?  :)"

You'd get me for a couple posts, until I realized I'd been had, then I would go back to ignoring it. I just don't get Magic Dishwasher, and I don't like it, for some odd reason. Well, I guess I just can't see how everything can be so calculated. I'm probably slaughtering the whole thing, but I still don't like how DD "planned" everything. And maybe Snape's not as mean as he looks, he is mean, gosh dang it!

-Acire, who realizes that she just made two huge grammar errors: run-on sentances!!



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From bkb042 at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 28 04:23:48 2003
From: bkb042 at yahoo.com (Brian <bkb042@yahoo.com>)
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 04:23:48 -0000
Subject: Monty Python Influences
In-Reply-To: <b132pq+pek8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b150kk+7bpa@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "sallygrist <sally at g...>" 
<sally at g...> wrote:
(Substantial snip)
> Do the guys from Monty Python really know the full extent of their 
> influence? And does anyone else know of any other unlikely 
influences 
> that they've stumbled upon?
> 
> Sally

Funny that you should ask.............
 
In the original Monty Python television show, there was a sketch 
about blancmanges from the planet Skyron who attempted to win 
Wimbledon by transforming everyone in England into Scotsman. The 
first victim of these insidious attacks was a Mr. Harold Potter. 

Nudge, nudge, wink, wink, say no more!

Brian





From risako at nexusanime.com  Tue Jan 28 09:56:18 2003
From: risako at nexusanime.com (Melissa McCarthy)
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 05:56:18 -0400
Subject: Character names
References: <b150kk+7bpa@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <024501c2c6b3$819d23c0$6fa794d1@vaio>

This comes from a discussion on the main list about what Bill's, Charlie's,
and Percy's full names might be (and I just want to say that I really like
the idea of "Perseus" for Percy, although I agree that it's unlikely).  My
half-baked theory is completely off-topic, so it'll be happier here.

What if Ginny's full name is Ginevra?  As in, Ginevra from Ariodante:
http://www.sdopera.com/pages/education/edusourcebook/ArAriSynopsis.htm

I can't imagine how this might fit into the story, and I don't really see
Ginny becoming *that* important to the plot, but... hmm.

Melissa, slinking off to concoct more foolish theories






From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Tue Jan 28 11:33:38 2003
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David <dfrankiswork@netscape.net>)
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 11:33:38 -0000
Subject: Fwd:  Harry Potter and the Chamber of Obsessed Readers
In-Reply-To: <b13s79+hd54@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b15pqi+5nm8@eGroups.com>

Anne wrote:

> I really love reading what people have to say (even the 12K 
messages)
> so I'm feeling a bit depressed that I will certainly have to miss 
out 
> on many of the insights that people bring to this discussion. Like 
> Hermione, I guess I want to be able to do it all, and realize that 
I 
> really can't :-(

Yes, I know the feeling.  For nearly a year I managed to keep up 
fully with both the main list and this one.  It's a wonderful 
feeling, being able to catch all the allusions (a really enjoyable 
post is like a work of art, with allusions to several threads going 
on at once), and to be able to post, too, with the sense (or is it 
the illusion?) of audience rapport that comes when making a 
presentation or a speech.

We have metaphors for the list: a seminar room where one person 
temporarily has the podium, or a cocktail party where there are many 
conversations going on at once.  But sometimes it seems more like a 
stately dance to me, like the movements of the planets, as the 
members follow their trajectories and then change course as their 
posts interact.  But I only get this sense when I can read 
everything.

Now I catch only a tiny fraction of main list posts and I'm always a 
little nervous of chiming in for fear of, to change the metaphor, 
tangling the threads I'm unaware of.  I suppose dancers do tread on 
one another's toes, and planets collide, but I don't like being part 
of it.

David




From karnasaur at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 28 12:20:57 2003
From: karnasaur at yahoo.com (Kristjan Arnason)
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 04:20:57 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Character names
In-Reply-To: <1043754660.522.47919.m12@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20030128122057.14569.qmail@web10402.mail.yahoo.com>

"What if Ginny's full name is Ginevra?  As in, 
Ginevra from Ariodante:
http://www.sdopera.com/pages/education/edusourcebook/ArAriSynopsis.htm"

How about Ginger?  Appropriate for a redhead.

K



__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
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From blessedbrian at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 28 13:49:04 2003
From: blessedbrian at yahoo.com (Brian Cordova <blessedbrian@yahoo.com>)
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 13:49:04 -0000
Subject: Monty Python Influences
In-Reply-To: <b150kk+7bpa@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b161og+bn6f@eGroups.com>



  I knew that I had remembered a cockroach cluster reference in MP, 
so thank you for confirming it.  And being the MP fan that JKR is, 
she must have been overjoyed at John Cleese's being cast as Nearly 
Headless Nick in the movies!

  Another Brian (as in "Life of...")

   



--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Brian <bkb042 at y...>" 
<bkb042 at y...> wrote:
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "sallygrist <sally at g...>" 
> <sally at g...> wrote:
> (Substantial snip)
> > Do the guys from Monty Python really know the full extent of 
their 
> > influence? And does anyone else know of any other unlikely 
> influences 
> > that they've stumbled upon?
> > 
> > Sally
> 
> Funny that you should ask.............
>  
> In the original Monty Python television show, there was a sketch 
> about blancmanges from the planet Skyron who attempted to win 
> Wimbledon by transforming everyone in England into Scotsman. The 
> first victim of these insidious attacks was a Mr. Harold Potter. 
> 
> Nudge, nudge, wink, wink, say no more!
> 
> Brian




From urbana at charter.net  Tue Jan 28 15:07:30 2003
From: urbana at charter.net (Anne <urbana@charter.net>)
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 15:07:30 -0000
Subject: Monty Python Influences
In-Reply-To: <b161og+bn6f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b166bi+5ukv@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Brian Cordova 
<blessedbrian at y...>" <blessedbrian at y...> wrote:
> 
> 
>   I knew that I had remembered a cockroach cluster reference in MP, 
> so thank you for confirming it.  And being the MP fan that JKR is, 
> she must have been overjoyed at John Cleese's being cast as Nearly 
> Headless Nick in the movies!
> 
>   Another Brian (as in "Life of...")

You mean as in "Brian Cohen, Reluctant Messiah" ???? :-) The Life of 
Brian is one of my favorite movies, though I actually remember a lot 
more lines from other MP movies:

*Jabberwocky: "Cart for the dead! Cart for the dead! Throw your dead 
out here!" (IMHO Jabberwocky was one of the most realistic portrayals 
of Probable Real Life in the Middle Ages, or perhaps the Dark Ages)

*MP & the Holy Grail: "What is the capital of Argentina? What is my 
favorite color?" and of course "NI! NI! NI!"

*Meaning of Life: "Every little sperm is sacred" (a wonderful 
production number), "We're here for your liver" and of course the 
ineffable Mr. Creosote ...(Ka BOOOOOM)

Anne U
(could go on and on but Must. Get. Back. To. Work.)





From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 28 02:45:14 2003
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd <jkusalavagemd@yahoo.com>)
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 02:45:14 -0000
Subject: Favourite Quotes
In-Reply-To: <17f.15dcef67.2b669ab9@aol.com>
Message-ID: <b14qrq+4cin@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, IAmLordCassandra at a... wrote:
> There's a thread going on the main list about favourite quotes from 
the Harry 
> Potter books, so I thought I should start a thread about favourite 
quotes 
> from....anything! Books, movies, bumperstickers, actually 
people....even 
> fanfiction you liked. Be they funny, heart felt, or whatever...post 
them 
> here! 
> 
> ~Cassie~   

I have two, favorites, both from Humphrey Bogart movies, though 
neither was uttered by Bogie:

1.  From "To Have and Have Not", Lauren Bacall says to Bogie, "You 
know how to whistle, don't you Steve?  You just put your lips 
together and blow."  (Chills run down my spine!)

2.  From "Casablanca",  Claude Rains says (as he closes Bogie's 
club, "Rick's"),  "Round up the usual suspects."  Inspector Louis's 
cheerful candor cracks me up every time.

Haggridd





From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 28 02:54:20 2003
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd <jkusalavagemd@yahoo.com>)
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 02:54:20 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] LOON correction Re: Banter and other SHIP subjects
In-Reply-To: <051601c2c3cf$c0ab3ed0$0301a8c0@Frodo>
Message-ID: <b14rcs+abq8@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "heiditandy" <heidit at n...> 
wrote:

> I don't really want to start the Weirdest SHIPs thread again, but I 
did
> want to point out that on FA, someone once started the Harry/Ice 
Lolly
> Lady SHIP, because she was the most obscure character in the books 
that
> they could come up with. So who knows what role the Trolly Lady will
> play in later books?
> 
> 
> heidi

I must have missed that thread, but I would like to nominate 
Archie/Mrs. Figg.  I can just picture them arguing among the cats and 
the cabbage about who gets to wear the nightgown.

Haggridd





From risako at nexusanime.com  Tue Jan 28 19:49:34 2003
From: risako at nexusanime.com (Melissa McCarthy)
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 15:49:34 -0400
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Character names
References: <20030128122057.14569.qmail@web10402.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <00dd01c2c706$62c7fd00$20a694d1@vaio>

> "What if Ginny's full name is Ginevra?  As in,
> Ginevra from Ariodante:
> http://www.sdopera.com/pages/education/edusourcebook/ArAriSynopsis.htm"
>
> How about Ginger?  Appropriate for a redhead.

I've always heard of the name Ginger (except for pets) as being a nickname
for Virginia, but if it's used as an independent name, that could work too!
Ah, the joys of speculation.  Ginger would also give her a lot less to live
up to!

Melissa






From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Tue Jan 28 23:16:58 2003
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius <coriolan@worldnet.att.net>)
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 23:16:58 -0000
Subject: Bad Vladimir! Bad Bad Vladimir!
Message-ID: <b1731a+cg6b@eGroups.com>

And we thought Nancy Stouffer was bad......

http://www.thisislondon.com/news/articles/3113851?source=Evening%
20Standard

    - CMC




From lupinesque at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 28 23:56:03 2003
From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z <lupinesque@yahoo.com>)
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 23:56:03 -0000
Subject: Bad Vladimir! Bad Bad Vladimir!
In-Reply-To: <b1731a+cg6b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b175aj+dfgm@eGroups.com>

CMC wrote:

> And we thought Nancy Stouffer was bad......

Does this strike anyone else as somewhat self-defeating?  I would 
never have noticed the resemblance if it weren't for the lawsuit 
(which I still suspect of being an Onion invention).  As it is, the 
resemblance is weak at best.

Amy Z




From jmmears at comcast.net  Wed Jan 29 00:57:11 2003
From: jmmears at comcast.net (serenadust <jmmears@comcast.net>)
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 00:57:11 -0000
Subject: Character names
In-Reply-To: <00dd01c2c706$62c7fd00$20a694d1@vaio>
Message-ID: <b178t7+q9jb@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Melissa McCarthy" wrote:
> I've always heard of the name Ginger (except for pets) as being a 
nickname
> for Virginia, but if it's used as an independent name, that could 
work too!
> Ah, the joys of speculation.  Ginger would also give her a lot 
less to live
> up to!

Maybe I'm just slow, but what about the name Ginger would give Ginny 
a lot to live up to?  Does "ginger" have another meaning (apart from 
the spice or the name)?

Jo Serenadust, puzzled




From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com  Wed Jan 29 01:09:25 2003
From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 20:09:25 EST
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Character names
Message-ID: <7d.3460f44f.2b6883c5@aol.com>

In a message dated 1/28/2003 7:59:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
jmmears at comcast.net writes:


> Maybe I'm just slow, but what about the name Ginger would give Ginny 
> a lot to live up to?  Does "ginger" have another meaning (apart from 
> the spice or the name)?
> 
> Jo Serenadust, puzzled

I looked up the name "Ginger", and it referred me to "Virginia", which means 
"Pure".  

This is a little off-topic, but I thought it was worth mentioning. I recently 
met a woman named Molly...and her husband's name is Arthur...and she has two 
children named Ron and Ginny! 

~Cassie~ 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From KAREN-GARY at worldnet.att.net  Wed Jan 29 01:34:07 2003
From: KAREN-GARY at worldnet.att.net (Gary Sapp & Karen J.S. <KAREN-GARY@worldnet.att.net>)
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 01:34:07 -0000
Subject: HP audio versions
Message-ID: <b17b2f+e0fj@eGroups.com>

I don't think anyone has discussed the audio versions for a while.  I
managed to get a complete set for Christmas, the UK version read by
Stephen Fry.  I received the Jim Dale version the christmas before.

Having just finished my first hearing of the Fry tapes, I was
wondering if anyone else had listened to both versions and what their
impressions/preferences are.

I used to think that books on tape sounded ridiculous but after trying
a few on long trips, they are a nice addition to my reading pleasure.
 Of course nothing takes the place (for me at least) of curling up
with a book.  However, listening to a tape while doing chores makes it
much more enjoyable and less boring.

Back to the taped versions, I find I like different things about both
actor's renditions.  I think I enjoyed hearing the variations in
wording in the UK set, revising for studying, car park for parking lot
and so on.  Fry was very droll and deliberate in his delivery whereas
Dale just got into the characters and kept on going at a faster pace.
 I could list other things but would like to hear others' impressions.


Karen

who is so glad I only have to wait until June to get Book 5 :)




From jmmears at comcast.net  Wed Jan 29 03:13:42 2003
From: jmmears at comcast.net (serenadust <jmmears@comcast.net>)
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 03:13:42 -0000
Subject: HP audio versions
In-Reply-To: <b17b2f+e0fj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b17gt7+kfqj@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Gary Sapp & Karen J.S. 
<KAREN-GARY at w...>" <KAREN-GARY at w...> wrote:
> I don't think anyone has discussed the audio versions for a 
while.  I
> managed to get a complete set for Christmas, the UK version read by
> Stephen Fry.  I received the Jim Dale version the christmas before.
> 
> Having just finished my first hearing of the Fry tapes, I was
> wondering if anyone else had listened to both versions and what 
their
> impressions/preferences are.


I have both versions of the first 3 books (and am working on getting 
the Fry version of GoF).  I enjoy the Dale version, but on the whole 
I think that the Stephen Fry ones are much better.  It's a matter of 
personal taste, for the most part, but there are some real 
differences.  For instance, in the Fry version of CoS there is a 
very cool echo chamber effect when Ron gets Molly's howler.  This 
effect is used again in PoA, when Harry hears his parent's voices 
while fighting the boggart/dementor.  In addition, I find Jim Dale's 
version of Hermione *very* irritating, especially when she 
says, "Harrrrryyyyyyyeeeee" ::shudders::, and at the end of PoA, 
when Harry tells Uncle Vernon about his godfather, the reading is so 
unbearably OOC (IMO), that I really can't stand to listen to it.

Overall, the Fry version is just much more dry and witty than the 
Dale version which is much more over the top.  I remember reading 
somewhere that Fry was JKR's personal choice to read the books, so 
that may be affecting my opinion.

You're really lucky to have both versions.  I've begun re-listening 
to them when driving on my daily route, and I still pick up on new 
nuances every time.

Jo Serenadust




From bkb042 at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 29 03:34:04 2003
From: bkb042 at yahoo.com (Brian <bkb042@yahoo.com>)
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 03:34:04 -0000
Subject: Bad Vladimir! Bad Bad Vladimir!
In-Reply-To: <b1731a+cg6b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b17i3c+dm1t@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Caius Marcius 
<coriolan at w...>" <coriolan at w...> wrote:
> And we thought Nancy Stouffer was bad......
>      - CMC

Has anyone else noticed that Hagrid looks like Josef Stalin in a 
beard?




From Malady579 at hotmail.com  Wed Jan 29 03:44:37 2003
From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody <Malady579@hotmail.com>)
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 03:44:37 -0000
Subject: Bad Vladimir! Bad Bad Vladimir!
In-Reply-To: <b17i3c+dm1t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b17in5+cedr@eGroups.com>

Brian:
> Has anyone else noticed that Hagrid looks like Josef Stalin in a
> beard?


Think they will make Madame Maxime look like Catherine the Great?






From devika at sas.upenn.edu  Wed Jan 29 05:29:20 2003
From: devika at sas.upenn.edu (devika261 <devika@sas.upenn.edu>)
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 05:29:20 -0000
Subject: Favourite Quotes
In-Reply-To: <17f.15dcef67.2b669ab9@aol.com>
Message-ID: <b17org+mil7@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, IAmLordCassandra at a... wrote:
> There's a thread going on the main list about favourite quotes from 
the Harry 
> Potter books, so I thought I should start a thread about favourite 
quotes 
> from....anything! Books, movies, bumperstickers, actually 
people....even 
> fanfiction you liked. Be they funny, heart felt, or whatever...post 
them 
> here! 
> 
> I'm very tired right now and I'll probably have more later, but one 
of mine 
> is: 
> 
> (I've only seen LotR: FotR twice, and I can't remember EXACTLY how 
this goes, 
> but those who have seen the movie will know what I'm talking about) 
> 
> Frodo: You can't help me, Sam. I'm going alone.. 
> 
> Sam: I know you are, Mr. Frodo! And I'm coming with you!  
> 
> I love it! It's funny, dramatic, and heartfelt at the same time 
(again, if 
> you've seen the movie you'll know what I'm talking about ^^) 
> 
> ~Cassie~   
> 


There's one line from the movie LotR: TTT that makes me laugh every 
time:

(after Pippin has explained his reasoning for Treebeard to take him 
and Merry south towards Isengard rather than north towards the Shire)

Treebeard:  "That doesn't make any sense to me, but then, you are 
very small."

My friend, who is studying to be a secondary school teacher, says 
that he's definitely going to use that one in the classroom!

Devika :)




From thalia at aokp.org  Wed Jan 29 05:36:23 2003
From: thalia at aokp.org (chanteuse thalia chaunacy)
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 21:36:23 -0800
Subject: fanfic quotes!  wheee!
Message-ID: <WorldClient-F200301282136.AA36230005@aokp.org>

here's the two that sprang to mind:

***

"...Fifteen points from Gryffindor." At that, Snape turned quickly, his 
cloak creating a malevolently sinister ripple.

[Harry said,] "I bet he planned that on purpose. 'Exit stage left, cloak 
flourish.'" 

[ from 'A Lapse In Logic' by
http://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=913509&chapter=2 ]

***

Ron could barely contain his rage. His voice was shaking. So were his 
hands. "Jesus Christ, Percy! Our eldest brother is getting married, for 
Gods sake, and you want to play Lets-Be-Better-Than-My-Family-because-
Im-In-Denial, or haven't you and your ever so smart Ministry friends 
figured it out yet? This is not the time to start disowning the rest of 
us!"

"Im not disowning anyone," [said Percy coldly.]

"What a shame!" Ron snapped, "because personally, Id love a good 
disowning right about bow. How about it, guys?" he swiveled around to the 
rest of his family. "Anyone up for a good disowning?" Fred gave George a 
nudge. They raised their hands. "Brilliant!" shouted Ron, "This is what I 
call family bonding!"

[ from 'Something Stupid' by PixiePoop
http://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1080719&chapter=1 ]

***

i have a zillion and three other quotes, but most of them are taboo 
political schlotzsky. :)

here's one to grow on: 'While anyone can make offensive comments about 
me, or to me, they *cannot* offend me without my permission.' Howie Lhyte

thalia 'the reigning queen of quotes, over 300 hundred served' chaunacy




From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com  Wed Jan 29 06:29:49 2003
From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 01:29:49 EST
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] fanfic quotes!  wheee!
Message-ID: <26.33ee2dd5.2b68cedd@aol.com>

Lol!  

here are a few of my favourites:  

(From Utee Pitcher and the Sorcerer's stoned by ker-plop (A Revolutionary 
Girl Utena and Harry Potter Crossover. Saionji as Hagrid and Utena as Harry)

SAIONJI: Because, Utee. Everyone knows about you. You were face-to-face with 
(lightning flashes and Saionji's voice grows loud and terrifying) HE WHO MUST 
NOT BE NAMED.
UTENA: Who's that?
SAIONJI: His name's Moldyfart. (Realizes that he just said the guy's name) 
D'OH!!!

There was another one I read...I don't remember who it was by and I can't 
seem to find it on ff.net again, but it was really funny. It was a classic 
'Snape teaches 'sex-ed' class. XXP The whole was pure gold. One of my 
favourite quotes went something like this: 

Lavender: We were wondering...ermm...if you could stop it from hurting... 

Snape: I'm going to assume you mean 'you' generally and are not addressing 
'me' specifically. 


heh-I dunno...it seems funny and snapeish at the same time to me XXP   

Then there's another 'Snape teaches sex-ed' one, written by AnGeLFiRe...I 
can't remember what it's called right now...but the quote is: 

Dumbledore: So for one day you shall be known not as the Potions Master, but 
the Se...er...Professor Snape. 



Also, lots of quotes in the fanfiction by the author named Quirrell-chan are 
very good. Am I saying this because *I* happen to be the author named 
Quirrell-chan? You bet. ^_~  

A friend of mine, Grace, and I wrote something that sort of made fun of a lot 
of the Harry Potter fanfics we've read. In it Severus Snape is actually the 
only sane person (compared to everyone else). It's called 'Quirrell Sex' 

Dumbledore: Ahh....about to have sex, eh? Well, I hope you have a condom! 

Snape: I DON'T NEED A CONDOM, I-! 

Dumbledore: Severus! I'm suprised at you! We're supposed to be teaching the 
children safe sex! 

Snape: There is no way I am having sex with- 

Dumbledore: Come on...I've got...BERTIE BOTTS EVERY FLAVOUR CONDOMS! 

Snape: 0_o; ....Bertie Bott's every flavour condoms?  

Dumbledore: Yes. I was very infortunate in my youth to come across a vomit 
flavoured one. Since then I've lost my liking for them. 

All: O_o;; 


Ok...we were very bored... 

~Cassie~ 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com  Wed Jan 29 06:34:15 2003
From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 01:34:15 EST
Subject: Help ???
Message-ID: <1f1.794d7d.2b68cfe7@aol.com>

Hey. I'm doing a term paper on English Mythology (Mainly Arthurian Legends). 
I know there are some people on this list (or at least on the main list, I 
know) who have studied said topic themselves. I'm sorry I can't remember who 
it was ^^; If you can, could someone point me towards some good sources? Or 
places to find sources? Honestly...all of you come up with the best 
information, so I thought I'd come here for help. 

~Cassie~ 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From risako at nexusanime.com  Wed Jan 29 08:17:15 2003
From: risako at nexusanime.com (Melissa McCarthy)
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 04:17:15 -0400
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Character names
References: <b178t7+q9jb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <007101c2c76e$d5fc31c0$7ca794d1@vaio>

I said:
>Ginger would also give her a lot
> less to live
> > up to!

Jo Serenadust said:
> Maybe I'm just slow, but what about the name Ginger would give Ginny
> a lot to live up to?  Does "ginger" have another meaning (apart from
> the spice or the name)?

::points up above::  I actually said that the name Ginger would give her
much *less* to live up to than the name Ginevra.  I can't think of any
operas featuring any heroic Gingers <g>

Melissa, hoping Ginny is going to be a sufficiently minor character that she
can have a happy life during the next three books






From lupinesque at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 29 09:29:29 2003
From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z <lupinesque@yahoo.com>)
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 09:29:29 -0000
Subject: HP Explains Russian History for You  (was Bad Vladimir!)
In-Reply-To: <b17in5+cedr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b186tp+t5g6@eGroups.com>

Brian:

> > Has anyone else noticed that Hagrid looks like Josef Stalin in a
> > beard?
 
Melody:
 
> Think they will make Madame Maxime look like Catherine the Great?

And Karkaroff can be Lenin.

Amy




From sushi at societyhappens.com  Wed Jan 29 09:41:23 2003
From: sushi at societyhappens.com (Sushi)
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 03:41:23 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] HP Explains Russian History for You 
  (was Bad Vladimir!)
In-Reply-To: <b186tp+t5g6@eGroups.com>
References: <b17in5+cedr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030129034027.0269aa00@mail.societyhappens.com>

At 09:29 AM 1/29/03 +0000, you wrote:
>Brian:
>
> > > Has anyone else noticed that Hagrid looks like Josef Stalin in a
> > > beard?
>
>Melody:
>
> > Think they will make Madame Maxime look like Catherine the Great?

Amy:

>And Karkaroff can be Lenin.


         Does this mean Alan Rickman was chosen to play Snape because he'd 
already done Rasputin?

Sushi


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Wed Jan 29 09:51:05 2003
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David <dfrankiswork@netscape.net>)
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 09:51:05 -0000
Subject: Bad Vladimir! Bad Bad Vladimir!
In-Reply-To: <b175aj+dfgm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b18869+lbkv@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Amy Z <lupinesque at y...>" 
<lupinesque at y...> wrote:

> Does this strike anyone else as somewhat self-defeating?  I would 
> never have noticed the resemblance if it weren't for the lawsuit 
> (which I still suspect of being an Onion invention).  As it is, 
the 
> resemblance is weak at best.

He's worried that people will tumble to his ability to Apparate in 
and out of the Pentagon.

Not to mention the analogy between rogue states and rogue bludgers...

David




From belleps at october.com  Wed Jan 29 10:45:24 2003
From: belleps at october.com (Beth)
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 04:45:24 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Favourite Quotes
In-Reply-To: <1043754660.522.47919.m12@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20030129044240.00a081c0@pop.cox-internet.com>

At 11:51 AM 1/28/03 +0000, Cassie wrote:
>There's a thread going on the main list about favourite quotes from the Harry
>Potter books, so I thought I should start a thread about favourite quotes
>from....anything! Books, movies, bumperstickers, actually people....even
>fanfiction you liked. Be they funny, heart felt, or whatever...post them
>here!

My favorite this week <grin> is from the Black Adder II series (British TV) 
with Rowan Atkinson:

"Once again, the path of my life is strewn with cowpats from the Devil's 
own satanic herd!"

<grin>
bel 




From Audra1976 at aol.com  Wed Jan 29 17:13:53 2003
From: Audra1976 at aol.com (Audra1976 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 12:13:53 EST
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] fanfic quotes!  wheee!
Message-ID: <14.8842220.2b6965d1@aol.com>

In a message dated 1/29/03 1:32:08 AM, IAmLordCassandra at aol.com writes:

<< Snape: 0_o; ....Bertie Bott's every flavour condoms?  

Dumbledore: Yes. I was very infortunate in my youth to come across a vomit 
flavoured one. Since then I've lost my liking for them.  >>

Hmmm...and Dumbledore was the one who TASTED the condom?  I wonder who was 
WEARING it!?

Audra



From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com  Wed Jan 29 17:34:50 2003
From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 12:34:50 EST
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] fanfic quotes!  wheee!
Message-ID: <16f.19e4d07c.2b696aba@aol.com>

In a message dated 1/29/2003 12:15:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
Audra1976 at aol.com writes:


> << Snape: 0_o; ....Bertie Bott's every flavour condoms?  
> 
> Dumbledore: Yes. I was very infortunate in my youth to come across a vomit 
> flavoured one. Since then I've lost my liking for them.  >>
> 
> Hmmm...and Dumbledore was the one who TASTED the condom?  I wonder who was 
> WEARING it!?

lol. Who said anyone was wearing it? ^^ 

Dumbledore: Well, if you're going to take over middle earth you'll of course 
need...A CONDOM!  

Eye of Sauron: 0_o;;....I'm a giant eye! Why would I need a condom? I can't 
have sex! 

Dumbledore: There are ways.... 

All: 0_o;;;;..... 

*later, after much arguing* 

Eye of Sauron: Fine! If it'll make you leave me alone I'll take a condom! 
Give me the one you're holding! 

Dumbledore: No! You can't have it! It's mine....my 
own....my..pppprrrrreeeecccciiiiooooouuuussssssss..... 

All: O.O  

No movie, show, musical, person, or thing is safe. ^^ 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From corsa808 at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 29 19:36:06 2003
From: corsa808 at yahoo.com (infiniT <corsa808@yahoo.com>)
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 19:36:06 -0000
Subject: Fwd:  Harry Potter and the Chamber of Obsessed Readers
In-Reply-To: <b13s79+hd54@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b19af6+dqds@eGroups.com>

 "Janet Anderson" wrote in [HPforGrownups] :

> 1. After a certain point in a subject I tend to skim the posts.

That's how I do it too.


> 2. There are certain ones I skip unread.

Ditto, unfortunately. 
I really wish I could manage my time well enough to get to most, if 
not all of the posts. If i miss a few days, I just have to delete. 8~(

> (Of course this only works if you get individual posts and not 
digest 
> format.

Actually, I get the digest version, but it's probably easier with 
individual posts.


***And David said, in OT:

We have metaphors for the list: a seminar room where one person 
temporarily has the podium, or a cocktail party where there are many 
conversations going on at once. 

***and I'm like:

 I'm pretty new here so I don't think I've encountered that analogy 
yet but I LOVE it. If it were later and I didn't have plans today, 
I'd fix myself a drink!

Speaking of being obsessed.....I can't seem to be able to read any 
other books, especially since OoP is coming out! I have so many other 
books I want to read right now but I just keep going back to my pal 
Harry. I reread the series, and when I was done, I started right back 
at CoS again (after a *small* break). Am I mental? teeheehee

t
(waiting for the weekend, when I can kick back with my PC and a 
martini and read EVERY message in my Inbox....!)








From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Wed Jan 29 20:49:03 2003
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius <coriolan@worldnet.att.net>)
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 20:49:03 -0000
Subject: FILK: Consider this Elf  (was: Bad Vladimir! Bad Bad Vladimir!)
In-Reply-To: <b1731a+cg6b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b19env+aet6@eGroups.com>


> http://www.thisislondon.com/news/articles/3113851?source=Evening%
> 20Standard


I never dreamed I would someday write an HP filk for Vladimir Putin



Consider This Elf

To the tune of Consider Yourself , from Oliver!

Hear a MIDI at:

http://www.broadwaymidi.com/shows/oliver.html

Dedicated to Amy Z

THE SCENE:  A courtroom in Moscow. Enter Russian President Vladimir 
Putin

PUTIN
Consider this elf to be 
A slur `gainst the man from the KGB
We don't need to have gremlins
That look like the head of the Kremlin

Consider Dobby a threat
Like those Wahhabis down in Chechyna
This is a Putin put-down
A rank insult to the Czarist crown

Russian Presidents just bang their shoes and not their heads
They wear suits instead of towels
It's by vodka and not butterbeer they're delighted 
You can just ask Colin Powell!

This legal expense ain't cheap
And sitting through court's a drag
If only we could do like in the good old days
And ship `em to the Gulag!

   -	CMC

HARRY POTTER FILKS
http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm 

The Capitol Steps did a great Putin song a couple years ago:

My name's Vlad
When I get mad 
I send my tanks and army ranks
Where Chechnya sits
Putin on a Blitz







From devika at sas.upenn.edu  Wed Jan 29 22:08:12 2003
From: devika at sas.upenn.edu (Devika <devika@sas.upenn.edu>)
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 22:08:12 -0000
Subject: FF:  Hermione's thoughts after the Yule Ball (formerly deleted post #13651)
Message-ID: <b19jcd+mi2f@eGroups.com>

OK, here it is again.  For those of you who already read this before 
I deleted it, I'm sorry for any confusion that may have caused.  For 
those of you reading it for the first time, please be kind as this is 
my first attempt at writing fanfiction, and I wrote it about an hour 
after my bedtime :) Anyway, I'm told that it is in fact appropriate 
for me to repost this, so here goes.
(Small disclaimer first:  I have never considered myself a true 
SHIPper, despite the obvious R/H leanings of this fic.  This isn't an 
argument for R/H, or against H/H; it's just what I've always thought 
might be going through Hermione's head at this particular time.)


SETTING:  Gryffindor Tower, immediately following The Big Fight after 
the Yule Ball

	Hermione stormed into the girls' dormitory and flung herself 
onto her bed, pulling the curtains around her.  Parvati and Lavender 
had not returned to the room yet, and Hermione was grateful; now she 
could think without being distracted about what had just happened in 
the Gryffindor common room.
	
Her own words echoed in her head:  "If you don't like it, you know 
what the solution is...next time there's a ball, ask me before 
someone else does, and not as a last resort!"  
	
In the darkness, she closed her eyes.  She pictured Ron's face in her 
mind, Ron's expression after she had said this.  He had looked 
utterly bewildered, completely taken by surprise at her words.  She 
couldn't blame him, really.  After all, she had been surprised at her 
own boldness.  But what else could have happened, under the 
circumstances?  Suddenly, during those moments in the common room, 
what for a long time had been a growing suspicion in the back of her 
mind had come sharply into focus, and she had finally understood 
Ron's behavior for the past few weeks.  She could finally be sure of 
his feelings for her, even though he had not yet fully realized them 
himself.  She had needed to say what she had said to him.  She had to 
make him understand. . . 
	
Hermione sat up in her bed, staring at the red curtains.  Her anger 
was slowly ebbing away.  What had she really expected of him, 
anyway?  She *knew* him, after all.  He had been one of her closest 
friends for years.  And she valued her friendships more than 
anything.  But still. . . 

How frustrating the past few months had been, knowing that no one had 
ever seen her as anything but the top student in the year.  This had 
never bothered her before; she had always enjoyed the attention that 
she had earned by being intelligent.  But recently, she had begun to 
doubt if she would ever be seen as anything but a brain.  Ron had 
been no different from anyone else in seeing her this way, but with 
him it was different.  He knew that she was more than just a talented 
mind and a powerful wand, but still to him, she was just a friend, 
just "one of the boys."  She had tried to make herself believe that 
he just hadn't begun to take any interest in girls yet.  But his 
reactions to Fleur had effectively destroyed that notion in her mind.
  
Yes, she had been angry with Ron, even though she knew that this was 
irrational and unfair.  She had been angry because he had refused to 
notice her as a girl.  He had refused to notice that she had changed, 
somehow, from the way she had been when they had first met.  And he 
had refused to notice that she wanted him to notice!  Even during the 
preparations for the Yule Ball, when he might have thought of her as 
a potential partner, he still hadn't noticed.  Not until the very 
end, when she had already agreed to go with Viktor. . .
 
Viktor.  Hermione thought of him, her face reddening slightly in the 
privacy of the darkened room.  It hadn't taken *him* very long to 
realize that she was a girl.  She had certainly been flattered by his 
attention
and he was very nice, and smart, and talented.  All in all, 
she liked him very much, and she certainly did not want to hurt him.  
But did she really have the same feelings for him that he seemed to 
have for her?  Hermione wasn't sure.  When she had been so insecure, 
he had been the first one to show a serious romantic interest in 
her.  And, no matter what happened between them, she would always be 
grateful for that. . .
   
But still, Hermione reminded herself sharply, focusing her thoughts 
once more on the issue at hand, Ron *had* finally realized that, in 
his words, she *was* a girl.  And, she thought with the smallest bit 
of satisfaction, he had certainly been jealous that she had gone to 
the ball with Viktor.  So there was hope, after all.  Hermione was 
sure of it?when Ron was ready, he would see.  Someday, he would 
finally understand and be able to express what he had been feeling.  
And she could be patient.  She would pretend that their argument had 
never happened.  For the sake of their friendship, she thought, 
smiling in the darkness, she would wait. 
	   






From skelkins at attbi.com  Thu Jan 30 01:12:52 2003
From: skelkins at attbi.com (ssk7882 <skelkins@attbi.com>)
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 01:12:52 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] LOON correction Re: Banter and other SHIP subjects
In-Reply-To: <b12vl2+3rjv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b19u6k+9714@eGroups.com>

> Heidi wrote:
> 
> > I don't really want to start the Weirdest SHIPs thread again, 

David asked: 
> Why ever not?
> 
> David, who didn't have time to submit his Vernon/Molly ship to the 
> contest

Well, somewhere on this list about a year ago, I wrote an 
ELGINMARBLES post in which I shipped Lupin with the Trolley Witch.

I still think that one's got ample canon support, myself.  ;-)


Elkins




From skelkins at attbi.com  Thu Jan 30 01:45:14 2003
From: skelkins at attbi.com (ssk7882 <skelkins@attbi.com>)
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 01:45:14 -0000
Subject: Favourite Quotes
In-Reply-To: <17f.15dcef67.2b669ab9@aol.com>
Message-ID: <b1a03a+aa0j@eGroups.com>

Cassie wrote:

> There's a thread going on the main list about favourite quotes from 
> the Harry Potter books, so I thought I should start a thread about 
> favourite quotes from....anything! 

I'm game!

I've always been hopelessly partial to this exchange, from 
_Catch-22._

---------------------------------------

"What the hell are you getting so upset about?" he asked her
bewilderedly in a tone of contrite amusement.  "I thought you 
didn't believe in God."

"I don't," she sobbed, bursting violently into tears.  "But the
God I don't believe in is a good God, a just God, a merciful God.
He's not the mean and stupid God you make Him out to be."

Yossarian laughed and turned her arms loose.  "Let's have a little
more religious freedom between us," he proposed obligingly.  "You 
don't believe in the God you want to, and I won't believe in the
God I want to.  Is that a deal?"

------------------------------------------------


I am often reminded of this one, for some strange reason, while 
discussing canon on the main list.  ;->


Elkins




From susannahlm at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 30 02:33:57 2003
From: susannahlm at yahoo.com (derannimer <susannahlm@yahoo.com>)
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 02:33:57 -0000
Subject: Bad Vladamir! Bad, Bad Vladamir!
Message-ID: <b1a2ul+b0vt@eGroups.com>

Crud. 

If I thought *I* looked like Dobby, I sure wouldn't mention it. 


Derannimer (who, as soon as she *heard* about this, cracked up; 
because Vladamir Putin *does* look like Dobby. Poor man.) ; )




From susannahlm at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 30 02:47:44 2003
From: susannahlm at yahoo.com (derannimer <susannahlm@yahoo.com>)
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 02:47:44 -0000
Subject: Favorite Quotes
Message-ID: <b1a3og+afe9@eGroups.com>

Don't even ask me why. . .

This is from an old British radio comedy, "The Goon Show." Since it 
is radio, and since it is a comedy, every once in a while, the 
characters wiil "turn" and say something to the audience (for 
example: "For the benefit of people without television, he's 
fainted!" or "Dear listeners: Now you know why this show can never go 
on television." or "Watch me turn the tables, listeners!"). 

So. 


--------


Neddie Seagoon: Little does he know that I suspect him of foul play.

Moriarity: Little does he know that I have never played with a fowl 
in my life.

Neddie: Little does he know that he has misconstrued the meaning of 
the word "foul." The word "foul" in my sentence was spelt F-O-U-L and 
not F-O-W-L as he *thought* I'd spelled it. 

Moriarity: Little does he know that I overheard his correction of my 
gramatical error, and shall now proceed to rectify it, aloud. *Ahem.* 
*So!* You suspect me of foul play spelled F-O-U-L and not F-O-W-L!

Neddie: Yes!


--------


Derannimer (who wishes more people knew the Goons)




From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 30 02:50:59 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve <bboy_mn@yahoo.com>)
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 02:50:59 -0000
Subject: Hogwarts and Village PEEBLE (was:Dragon Reserch - MAPS)
In-Reply-To: <b12klt+rdlf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b1a3uj+lcs9@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Steve <bboy_mn at y...>"
<bboy_mn at y...> wrote:

UPDATE:
I have added a map to the Hogwarts site showing the location of the
Village PEEBLE relative to the Railways in that area of Scotland. 

There was some speculation that Harry, Ron, and the Ford Anglia being
sighted near Peeble indicated that Howarts was in Eastern Scotland.
This map shows that regardless of whether they were going to West,
Central, or Eastern Scotland, they would have still gone by Peeble.

Just a little FYI.

bboy_mn


> For Satellite Maps of Scotland and Hogwarts see-
> 
 http://BlueMoonMarket.homestead.com/Files/Hogwarts/hogwarts1.htm
> 
> Images are about 100k each.
> 
> I will have a new map of Peeble ...
> Romania for the Wizard's Dragon Research Center, 
> 
> http://BlueMoonMarket.homestead.com/Files/Hogwarts/RomDragCenter.html
> 
> This is a non-commerial website.
> 
> bboy_mn




From thalia at aokp.org  Thu Jan 30 03:31:28 2003
From: thalia at aokp.org (chanteuse thalia chaunacy)
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 19:31:28 -0800
Subject: eep! two more fanfic quotes!
Message-ID: <WorldClient-F200301291931.AA31280036@aokp.org>

***

[slight HP/GW SHIP]

Ron tried to put on an annoyed face, but it was merely an attempt to hide 
his impulse to let out a very schmoopy sigh, which usually surfaced when 
he saw Harry and Ginny caught up in themselves. Contrary to popular 
opinion, Ron was all for Harrys acquisition of his little sister  but 
it often brought up these pathetic romantic yearnings from out of 
nowhere. And *that* annoyed him to no end.

[from 'Just Desserts' by ThaliaChaunacy
http://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1106151&chapter=1 ]

***

...the [Rolling] Stones must be part of the wizarding community in some 
respect as Keith Richards couldnt possibly still be alive otherwise.

[from 'Fellytones & Fuzzy Slippers' by The Treacle Tart
http://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1075938&chapter=1 ]

***

My fave line from LOTR: "I will take the ring to Mordor!  ... though I do 
not know the way ... "  Frodo, you darling! I'll go with you! <swoon>

Thalia 'shameless self-advancer' Chaunacy

"Ah, music. A magic beyond all we do here!"  -Albus Dumbledore




From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 30 04:40:59 2003
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd <jkusalavagemd@yahoo.com>)
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 04:40:59 -0000
Subject: HP audio versions
In-Reply-To: <b17b2f+e0fj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b1aacr+fups@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Gary Sapp & Karen J.S. 
<KAREN-GARY at w...>" <KAREN-GARY at w...> wrote:
> I don't think anyone has discussed the audio versions for a while.  
> 
> Having just finished my first hearing of the Fry tapes, I was
> wondering if anyone else had listened to both versions and what 
their
> impressions/preferences are.

> Karen

I had posted a sreies of comparisons of the two versions about 
eighteen months ago on HPFGU.  They all have some variation of the 
title "Dale vs. Fry:  taste test", IIRC.

Personally, I found Dale to have a wider range of character voices.  
He "acted" his characters' dialogue.  Fry would attempt to do this 
from time to time, but since his range was so limited, almost every 
character ended up sounding like a well-educated middle class 
Englishman.  The one characterization in which Fry's reading  was 
clearly superior to Dale's was that of Hermione.  Fry had captured 
that breathless, bossy note that hermione had, especially early in PS.
Dale's Hermione is insipid and too dependent on Harry.

As for the other characterizations, I found Dale clearly superior, 
and I had none of the problems with the voices that many Fry 
supporters seem to have had.  Perhaps this was because I am an 
American, and not in tune with some of the fine distinctions of the 
various British dialects, and because I heard the Dale readings first.
I see no reason, however, why Fry gave Karkaroff a German accent.  He 
is clearly Slavic.

I think the clearest evidence of how I have reacted to the recordings 
is that I will buy the Bloomsbury edition of OoP, but buy the Dale 
recording only, if he narrates it.

Haggridd








From HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com  Thu Jan 30 08:36:33 2003
From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com (HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 30 Jan 2003 08:36:33 -0000
Subject: Poll results for HPFGU-OTChatter 
Message-ID: <1043915793.22.22532.m9@yahoogroups.com>


The following HPFGU-OTChatter poll is now closed.  Here are the 
final results: 


POLL QUESTION: When and how do you plan to buy your 
copy of Harry Potter and the Order of 
the Phoenix? 

CHOICES AND RESULTS
- I'll stand in that long line at (name of bookstore) so I can buy the hardcover version at the stroke of midnight on June 21, 2003., 38 votes, 58.46%  
- I'll pre-order it through  (an online book vendor) so that it arrives in my mailbox on June 21., 23 votes, 35.38%  
- I'll wait till the queues clear out and buy it a few days later at a bookstore., 4 votes, 6.15%  
- I'll wait till the paperback version comes out and buy that at a discount store., 0 votes, 0.00%  
- I won't buy OoP, I'll just get on the waiting list for it at my local library, 0 votes, 0.00%  
- My eyes are tired, so I don't plan to read OoP., 0 votes, 0.00%  
- Harry Who? , 0 votes, 0.00%  



For more information about this group, please visit 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter 

For help with Yahoo! Groups, please visit
http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/ 

 





From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Thu Jan 30 09:55:43 2003
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David <dfrankiswork@netscape.net>)
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 09:55:43 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] LOON correction Re: Banter and other SHIP subjects
In-Reply-To: <b19u6k+9714@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b1asqv+sv6c@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "ssk7882 <skelkins at a...>" 
<skelkins at a...> wrote:

> Well, somewhere on this list about a year ago, I wrote an 
> ELGINMARBLES post in which I shipped Lupin with the Trolley Witch.
> 
> I still think that one's got ample canon support, myself.  ;-)

Yes, 'go and have a word with the driver' indeed - how transparent.

David




From tabouli at unite.com.au  Thu Jan 30 13:49:44 2003
From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli)
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 00:49:44 +1100
Subject: Dumbledore/Nicholas Flamel?
Message-ID: <004c01c2c866$730f5800$22c932d2@price>

Audra, quoting IAmLordCassandra:
>>Dumbledore: Yes. I was very infortunate in my youth to come across a vomit 
flavoured one. Since then I've lost my liking for them.  >>
>
>Hmmm...and Dumbledore was the one who TASTED the condom?  I wonder who was 
WEARING it!?

Ha, well, there is one person we know for sure was around in Dumbledore's youth... his work on "alchemy" with his "partner" Nicholas Flamel, eh?  Tsk tsk tsk.  So what were those 12 uses of dragon's blood again, guys?  What was the little chat they had before Nicholas decided to End It All?  And what was the *first* big adventure?

Of course, there's youth and there's youth.  Broaden the concept a little and still more grisly possibilities arise... how exactly did he defeat the dark wizard Grindelwald in 1945, eh?

Tabouli (engaging in a little unseemly snickering).




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From annemehr at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 30 15:46:28 2003
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr <annemehr@yahoo.com>)
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 15:46:28 -0000
Subject: Hogwarts and Village PEEBLE (was:Dragon Reserch - MAPS)
In-Reply-To: <b1a3uj+lcs9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b1bhck+unjd@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Steve <bboy_mn at y...>" 
<bboy_mn at y...> wrote:

<a snippet:>

> UPDATE:
> I have added a map to the Hogwarts site showing the location of the
> Village PEEBLE relative to the Railways in that area of Scotland. 
> 

I just got a vivid image of four wizard singers on a railway platform: 
a werewolf, a ministry official, a vampire, and a quidditch player, 
and a young witch spots them and shouts, "Look, Mummy!  The VILLAGE 
PEEBLE!"  :D


> bboy_mn
> 
> 
> > For Satellite Maps of Scotland and Hogwarts see-
> > 
>  http://BlueMoonMarket.homestead.com/Files/Hogwarts/hogwarts1.htm
> > 
> > Images are about 100k each.
> > 
> > I will have a new map of Peeble ...
> > Romania for the Wizard's Dragon Research Center, 
> > 
> > 
http://BlueMoonMarket.homestead.com/Files/Hogwarts/RomDragCenter.html
> > 
> > This is a non-commerial website.

Annemehr
who really appreciates Steve's hard work on this, as she very much 
likes to be able to picture the places and things in books, and is 
very much annoyed when she can't...
and if she was any good at filking, would do something with YMCA (but 
it's probably been done already...)




From sally at gristiegraphics.co.uk  Thu Jan 30 16:08:33 2003
From: sally at gristiegraphics.co.uk (sallygrist <sally@gristiegraphics.co.uk>)
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 16:08:33 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] LOON correction Re: Banter and other SHIP subjects
In-Reply-To: <b1asqv+sv6c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b1bim1+2ip7@eGroups.com>

skelkins wrote
> 
> > Well, somewhere on this list about a year ago, I wrote an 
> > ELGINMARBLES post in which I shipped Lupin with the Trolley 
Witch.
> > 
> > I still think that one's got ample canon support, myself.  ;-)
> 

and David said:
> Yes, 'go and have a word with the driver' indeed - how transparent.
> 

And I say:
Ah, but think again, this could be the truth, remember Hermione's
"I've just been up front to ask the driver..." 

Sounds to me like this train driver could be a bit of a tart ;o)

Sally




From urbana at charter.net  Thu Jan 30 16:27:08 2003
From: urbana at charter.net (Anne <urbana@charter.net>)
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 16:27:08 -0000
Subject: Hogwarts and Village PEEBLE (was:Dragon Reserch - MAPS)
In-Reply-To: <b1bhck+unjd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b1bjos+7jl0@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr <annemehr at y...>" 
<annemehr at y...> wrote:
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Steve <bboy_mn at y...>" 
> <bboy_mn at y...> wrote:
> 
> <a snippet:>
> 
> > UPDATE:
> > I have added a map to the Hogwarts site showing the location of 
the
> > Village PEEBLE relative to the Railways in that area of Scotland. 
> > 
> 
> I just got a vivid image of four wizard singers on a railway 
platform: 
> a werewolf, a ministry official, a vampire, and a quidditch player, 
> and a young witch spots them and shouts, "Look, Mummy!  The VILLAGE 
> PEEBLE!"  :D
> 
> 

There's a filk in there, for sure... though the one I was thinking of 
had Harry & Ron in the Ford Anglia flying over Peeble... I've started 
on one with that theme but I bet someone else will beat me to it with 
a different theme...

Anne U
(who knows exactly which song will be filked ;-)





From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 30 19:12:58 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve <bboy_mn@yahoo.com>)
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 19:12:58 -0000
Subject: Hogwarts and Village PEEBLE (was:Dragon Reserch - MAPS)
In-Reply-To: <b1bhck+unjd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b1btfq+s0tk@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr <annemehr at y...>"
<annemehr at y...> wrote:
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Steve <bboy_mn at y...>" 
> <bboy_mn at y...> wrote:
> 
> > UPDATE:
> > I have added a map to the Hogwarts site showing the location of
> > the Village PEEBLE relative to the Railways in that area of 
> > Scotland. 
> > - - - - - - - - - - - - 
> 
> I just got a vivid image of four wizard singers on a railway 
> platform: a werewolf, a ministry official, a vampire, and a 
> quidditch player, and a young witch spots them and shouts, "Look, 
> Mummy!  The VILLAGE PEEBLE!"  :D
> 
> 
> Annemehr
> who really appreciates Steve's hard work on this, as she very much 
> likes to be able to picture the places and things in books, and is 
> very much annoyed when she can't...  and if she was any good at 
> filking, would do something with YMCA (but it's probably been done 
> already...)

bboy_mn:
That was seriously laugh out loud funny. That's I needed that, I've
been having a very rough week. My car decided to die a couple days
ago, so I've been out in the freezing cold trying to fix it. Oooo....
I just love winter.

bboy_mn





From cas at toxic.demon.co.uk  Thu Jan 30 19:35:29 2003
From: cas at toxic.demon.co.uk (Cas <cas@toxic.demon.co.uk>)
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 19:35:29 -0000
Subject: Hogwarts and Village PEEBLE (was:Dragon Reserch - MAPS)
In-Reply-To: <b1a3uj+lcs9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b1buq1+486o@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Steve <bboy_mn at y...>" 
<bboy_mn at y...> wrote:
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Steve <bboy_mn at y...>"
> <bboy_mn at y...> wrote:
> 
> UPDATE:
> I have added a map to the Hogwarts site showing the location of the
> Village PEEBLE relative to the Railways in that area of Scotland. 

Cas
Er, clears throat for first post to this list. It's not actually 
PEEBLE, it's PEEBLES and it's not a village it's a town, pop around 
7000, ancient Scottish burgh, got its charter some time in the Middle 
Ages. County town of Peebleshire.

Very impressed with the map though. One consideration you might like 
to think about, is there anything that suggests that the railway line 
the HE goes on in one that exists in the ordinary world? The posts on 
magic space got me thinking about this. There are a lot of taken-up 
railway lines across the country, one that runs through the south of 
Scotland, only a few miles from PEEBLES <g> is intact apart from 
having no track. The line was taken up in the 1960s and ran from 
Edinburgh down to Moffat via Galashiels. Just a thought.

Cas




From farmgirlnow at hotmail.com  Thu Jan 30 21:38:26 2003
From: farmgirlnow at hotmail.com (farmcatnow <farmgirlnow@hotmail.com>)
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 21:38:26 -0000
Subject: HP audio versions
In-Reply-To: <b1aacr+fups@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b1c60i+uvn6@eGroups.com>

Hey,

Just wanted to put in my 2 Knuts...

I LOVE the Jim Dale audio books!  (I have never heard the English 
recording, so I cannot compare them.  I do hope to hear that version 
eventually...)

I am very hopeful that Jim Dale will read for the new books, I will 
be heartbroken if he doesn't.  He has all of their voices down!  He 
really gives Harry an emotional voice, I think he really captures his 
spirit.

I have read the books and I have listened to the books and in my 
opinion, if you haven't yet listed to Jim Dale read them...you are in 
for a real TREAT!!

Julie in snowy PA

PS  The librarian told me that for Goblet of Fire they gave Jim Dale 
the book ahead of the book release so that the audio book would come 
out at the same time as the book.  I sure hope they do that again!




From john at queerasjohn.com  Thu Jan 30 21:41:05 2003
From: john at queerasjohn.com (Queer as John)
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 21:41:05 +0000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Hogwarts and Village PEEBLE (was:Dragon
	Reserch - MAPS)
In-Reply-To: <b1buq1+486o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <BA5F4C71.6A79%john@queerasjohn.com>

Cas <cas at toxic.demon.co.uk> said:

> Er, clears throat for first post to this list. It's not actually
> PEEBLE, it's PEEBLES and it's not a village it's a town, pop around
> 7000, ancient Scottish burgh, got its charter some time in the Middle
> Ages. County town of Peebleshire.

Peeblesshire no longer exists and has been subsumed into the Scottish
Borders council. See: http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/sct/PEE/

--John, who's driven through Peebles and would rather have flown *over*
it...

______________________________________

Queer as John || john at queerasjohn.com

AIM, YM & LJ @ QueerAsJohn || www.queerasjohn.com

"There's nowt as queer as folk."  --English proverb
______________________________________




From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 30 21:53:08 2003
From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent <psychic_serpent@yahoo.com>)
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 21:53:08 -0000
Subject: Favourite Quotes
In-Reply-To: <b13qnr+l0c2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b1c6s4+c0q2@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "aaoconnor2002 
<aaoconnor2002 at y...>" <aaoconnor2002 at y...> wrote:
> My all-time favorite quote comes from the original "Rudolph the 
> Red Nosed Reindeer" Christmas special.  It is when Rudolph and 
> Hermey the elf meet for the first time and find out that they both 
> are misfits who don't fit in.  Hermey says, "Let's be independent, 
> together!"
 
> When I was a child I just thought this was funny.  It wasn't till 
> I grew up that I realized that that line is actually quite 
> profound.


That reminds me of my favorite Life of Brian quote, which takes 
place when Brian is addressing a crowd he is trying to disperse (I 
think he's trying to disperse it--memory of details are fuzzy right 
now).  He says, "You are all individuals!"  and the crowd repeats 
dutifully and in unison, "Yes!  We are all individuals!"  A lone 
hold-out, however, kicks up the irony a notch by crying out, "I'm 
not!"

It gets me every time.  I'm glad you brought up Lemony Snicket, 
Dave.  I've just begun the sixth book (I'm nicking my daughter's LS 
books from her room--they're just too funny) and I believe that's 
where the Squalors come in as characters.  I love this passage, 
speaking of funny quotes:

'But unlike this book, the dictionary also discusses words that are 
far more pleasant to contemplate.  The word "bubble" is in the 
dictionary, for instance, as is the word "peacock," the 
word "vacation," and the 
words "the" "author's" "execution" "has" "been" "canceled," which 
make up a sentence that is always pleasant to hear.'  I'm usually 
reading the Lemony Snicket books late at night in bed, and I've 
woken my husband more than once with my laughter.

I'm also busy reading the Unauthorized Autobiography, which my 
clever son knew would make a good Christmas gift for me.  Another 
thing I'm reading that offers me many chuckles is Dave Barry's Sort-
of History of the United States, which tells us that after WWII, 
President Truman wisely decided it was time to start the Postwar 
Era.  That Harry S.  Can't put one past him. <g>

--Barb





From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 30 22:16:22 2003
From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent <psychic_serpent@yahoo.com>)
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 22:16:22 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore/Nicholas Flamel?
In-Reply-To: <004c01c2c866$730f5800$22c932d2@price>
Message-ID: <b1c87m+ltv5@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Tabouli" <tabouli at u...> 
wrote:
> Audra, quoting IAmLordCassandra:
> >>Dumbledore: Yes. I was very infortunate in my youth to come 
> across a vomit flavoured one. Since then I've lost my liking for 
> them.  >>
> >
> >Hmmm...and Dumbledore was the one who TASTED the condom?  I 
> wonder who was WEARING it!?
> 
> Ha, well, there is one person we know for sure was around in 
> Dumbledore's youth... his work on "alchemy" with his "partner" 
> Nicholas Flamel, eh?  Tsk tsk tsk.  So what were those 12 uses of 
> dragon's blood again, guys?  What was the little chat they had 
> before Nicholas decided to End It All?  And what was the *first* 
> big adventure?
> 
> Of course, there's youth and there's youth.  Broaden the concept a 
> little and still more grisly possibilities arise... how exactly 
> did he defeat the dark wizard Grindelwald in 1945, eh?

> Tabouli (engaging in a little unseemly snickering).

You are indeed evil, you bowl of Middle Eastern salad you, for 
putting these evil, evil thoughts in my head!  (And this from 
someone who ALWAYS avoids any fics that imply that Dumbledore is 
anything but completely asexual!)  I was chuckling over the condom 
line because it truly seems in the spirit of Dumbledore quotes, such 
as the one about Aberforth (practicing inappropriate charms on a 
goat) which beg to have the backstory told.  I included something of 
this nature in a fic of mine wherein Dumbledore is saying, "I once 
had an uncle who Splinched himself so spectacularly, that ever 
after, whenever he sneezed--"  And we don't get the rest because 
McGonagall (the soul of propriety) clears her throat and he thinks 
better of finishing. <g>

Dumbledore's quotes (in canon and sometimes in fanon) remind me a 
bit of those Pinky and the Brain quotes which all begin with Brain 
saying, "Are you pondering what I'm pondering?"  One of my favorite 
responses from Pinky is, "I think so, Brain.  But you know how 
burlap chafes me."  

--Barb
(off to look at the website with the Pinky and the Brain quotes...)





From linkajarjarbinks at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 30 22:37:43 2003
From: linkajarjarbinks at yahoo.com (Matilda Trelawney)
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 14:37:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Dumbledore/Nicholas Flamel?
In-Reply-To: <004c01c2c866$730f5800$22c932d2@price>
Message-ID: <20030130223743.82972.qmail@web12808.mail.yahoo.com>


I don't mean to totally squash your paring idea, but that was just totally gross, and unconvincing. Dumbledore was talking about a jellybean, NOT a condom. I hope you don't find this offensive, but I think you have a rather sick mind, and honestly, you should probably get it out of the gutter. 
 But I can't lie that your message cracked me up, but it also disgusted me at the same time. I'm just weird like that...if this was meant to be humor, I don't have a problem with it. If you're actually serious...well, then I'm just plain worried about you.

-Matilda  

 Tabouli <tabouli at unite.com.au> wrote:Audra, quoting IAmLordCassandra:
>>Dumbledore: Yes. I was very infortunate in my youth to come across a vomit 
flavoured one. Since then I've lost my liking for them.  >>
>
>Hmmm...and Dumbledore was the one who TASTED the condom?  I wonder who was 
WEARING it!?

Ha, well, there is one person we know for sure was around in Dumbledore's youth... his work on "alchemy" with his "partner" Nicholas Flamel, eh?  Tsk tsk tsk.  So what were those 12 uses of dragon's blood again, guys?  What was the little chat they had before Nicholas decided to End It All?  And what was the *first* big adventure?

Of course, there's youth and there's youth.  Broaden the concept a little and still more grisly possibilities arise... how exactly did he defeat the dark wizard Grindelwald in 1945, eh?

Tabouli (engaging in a little unseemly snickering).




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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From drednort at alphalink.com.au  Fri Jan 31 01:37:37 2003
From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately)
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 12:37:37 +1100
Subject: My life was Re: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Birthday Greetings!
In-Reply-To: <b0ggcs+mktd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3E3A6E11.21567.33C779C@localhost>

On 20 Jan 2003 at 9:43, Mary Ann macloudt at yahoo.co.uk wrote:

> :::::tosses confetti and streamers around the room, feeling 
> reasonably confident that it's still the 20th in Australia <g>:::::

You made it by about three hours (-8
 
> Yes, we have an Aussie birthday today...Shaun Hately!  Greetings can 
> be sent to the List or to drednort at alphalink.com.au
> 
> Have a brilliant day, Shaun, and I hope there are some groovy HP 
> goodies in your present pile!

I had the most wonderful present and it's one reason it has taken me so long to post a 
reply (thanks to the people who sent me Birthday Wishes).

The evening before my birthday, I found out I had been offered a place at the University 
of Melbourne to study for a Bachelor of Education, starting in March. This is something I 
so want to do - it will allow me to put my voluntary work with gifted kids, and maybe 
some of my work on bullying onto a much firmer basis, maybe even into a career. I am 
ecstatic. But I have been so busy - both with getting ready for this course, and because 
of all the bushfires here in Australia... I've barely had time to think until the last day or 
so.

I'm going to be a teacher. I just hope I can avoid being too Snapish (-8


Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought
Shaun Hately |webpage: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html
(ISTJ)       |email: drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200
"You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in
common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter
the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen
to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who:
The Face of Evil | Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia




From rvotaw at i-55.com  Fri Jan 31 01:43:55 2003
From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw)
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 19:43:55 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Favourite Quotes
References: <b17org+mil7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <014801c2c8ca$37a53c80$749ecdd1@RVotaw>

Devika wrote:

> Treebeard:  "That doesn't make any sense to me, but then, you are 
> very small."

Oh, that's a good one.  I'll have to remember it for my first graders.  It would go completely over their heads.  I've had Ron's "How thick can you get?" on my tongue a number of times, and stopped it just before it slipped out!

Richelle


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From skelkins at attbi.com  Fri Jan 31 11:06:16 2003
From: skelkins at attbi.com (ssk7882 <skelkins@attbi.com>)
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 11:06:16 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] LOON correction Re: Banter and other SHIP subjects
In-Reply-To: <b1asqv+sv6c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b1dlb9+2915@eGroups.com>

I wrote, about the Lupin/Trolley Witch ship:

> > I still think that one's got ample canon support, myself.  ;-)

David agreed:

> Yes, 'go and have a word with the driver' indeed - how transparent.

Indeed!  But it could not have been a happy meeting, could it?  For 
you see, here we have the Case of the Trolley Witch's Smile:

---------------

But what happened to the lunch trolley witch's smile? In Book One, 
we have:

"Around half past twelve there was a great clattering outside in the 
corridor and a smiling, dimpled woman slid back their door and 
said, 'Anything off the trolley, dears?'"

In the beginning of PoA, we have:

"At one o'clock, the plump witch with the food cart arrived at the 
compartment door. . . 'Don't worry, dear,' said the witch as she 
handed Harry a large stack of Cauldron Cakes. 'If he's hungry when 
he wakes, I'll be up front with the driver.'"

(You will note that, in this scene, the children refer to Lupin only 
as *Professor.* They never once use his name in the trolley witch's 
hearing. Keep this in mind, as it is significant.)

But look at what happens to our trolley witch next! End of PoA:

"...when the witch with the tea cart arrived..."

Beginning of GoF:

"The lunch trolley came rattling along the corridor, and Harry 
bought a large stack of Cauldron Cakes for them to share." 

End of GoF:

"They broke off their conversation about what action Dumbledore might 
be taking, even now, to stop Voldemort only when the lunch trolley 
arrived."

Why, that trolley woman just never smiles or twinkles or maternally 
'dears' Harry *again,* does she? She becomes...silent. Sad. 
Brooding.

Clearly something *happened.* Something between her appearance at 
the beginning of PoA and at the book's ending. What became of the 
Trolley Witch's smile?

---------------

Unhappy reunion with old flame.

It is the only explanation which will suffice.



Elkins, always up for a bit of over-analizing of the text




From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Fri Jan 31 12:37:32 2003
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David <dfrankiswork@netscape.net>)
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 12:37:32 -0000
Subject: A Clue! (was LOON correction)
In-Reply-To: <b1dlb9+2915@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b1dqmc+aith@eGroups.com>

Elkins revealed from GOF:

> "They broke off their conversation about what action Dumbledore 
might 
> be taking, even now, to stop Voldemort only when the lunch trolley 
> arrived."

I hadn't realised until now that there is more than one way to parse 
this sentence.  Clearly that trolley has greater plot significance 
than I thought!

David




From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Fri Jan 31 13:06:12 2003
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David <dfrankiswork@netscape.net>)
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 13:06:12 -0000
Subject: Snicket and Favourite Quotes
In-Reply-To: <b1c6s4+c0q2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b1dsc4+apjm@eGroups.com>

Barb wrote:

>  I'm glad you brought up Lemony Snicket, 
> Dave.  I've just begun the sixth book (I'm nicking my daughter's 
LS 
> books from her room--they're just too funny) and I believe that's 
> where the Squalors come in as characters.  

I'm only onto book 3 myself, the family finances requiring slow 
acquisition of books.  After my last post I realised that the 
Unauthorised Autobiography likely contains many references to later 
books.  I had been daft enough to think that it was a stand-alone 
book when I bought it.

Meanwhile people with a limited knowledge of the series should on no 
account visit www.lemonysnicket.com - they will never be able to 
escape!

> Another 
> thing I'm reading that offers me many chuckles is Dave Barry's 
Sort-
> of History of the United States, which tells us that after WWII, 
> President Truman wisely decided it was time to start the Postwar 
> Era.  

I hadn't heard of that one - we have a book from the twenties called 
1066 And All That.

The reason for the Crimean War reads as follows:

"1) Russia was Too Big, and pointing in the direction of India.

2) The Holy Places.  The *French* thought that the Holy Places (in 
*Palestine*) should be protected (probably from the *Americans*) by 
*Latin* monks, while the *Turks*, who owned the places, thought they 
should be guarded by *Greek* monks.  *Britain* therefore quite 
rightly declared war on *Russia*, who immediately occupied 
*Roumania*."

You'd think that after 150 years, great power thinking about the 
Middle East might have changed a bit, wouldn't you?

With all due respect

David




From skelkins at attbi.com  Fri Jan 31 18:40:12 2003
From: skelkins at attbi.com (ssk7882 <skelkins@attbi.com>)
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 18:40:12 -0000
Subject: A Clue! (was LOON correction)
In-Reply-To: <b1dqmc+aith@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b1efuc+4vuc@eGroups.com>

"They broke off their conversation about what action Dumbledore 
might be taking, even now, to stop Voldemort only when the lunch 
trolley arrived."

David:
> I hadn't realised until now that there is more than one way to 
> parse this sentence.  Clearly that trolley has greater plot 
> significance than I thought!

Well, we all knew that Dumbledore works in mysterious ways, didn't we?
Little did we know that he was merely biding his time, waiting for 
the prophecied arrival of The Lunch Trolley before he made his move.

Can this be reconciled with MAGICDISHWASHER, do you think?


You know, I once had an English teacher who used to pick out 
sentences like the above whenever they would appear in my essays and 
then demand that I explain to the entire class precisely *why* they 
were grammatically problematic?

Sadistic man, he was.  

Elkins




From KAREN-GARY at worldnet.att.net  Fri Jan 31 19:47:07 2003
From: KAREN-GARY at worldnet.att.net (Gary Sapp & Karen J.S. <KAREN-GARY@worldnet.att.net>)
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 19:47:07 -0000
Subject: HP audio versions
In-Reply-To: <b1c60i+uvn6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b1ejrr+8ge3@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "farmcatnow
<farmgirlnow at h...>" <farmgirlnow at h...> wrote:
snip
> 
> Just wanted to put in my 2 Knuts...
> 
> I LOVE the Jim Dale audio books!  (I have never heard the English 
> recording, so I cannot compare them.  I do hope to hear that
version 
> eventually...)
> 
> I am very hopeful that Jim Dale will read for the new books, I will 
> be heartbroken if he doesn't.  He has all of their voices down!  He 
> really gives Harry an emotional voice, I think he really captures
his 
> spirit.
>
> Julie in snowy PA
> 
> PS  The librarian told me that for Goblet of Fire they gave Jim
Dale 
> the book ahead of the book release so that the audio book would
come 
> out at the same time as the book.  I sure hope they do that again!




Thanks for the feedback.  I too love the accents that Dale does and I
have listened to them quite a few times.  I do agree with what some
others have said about Hermoine being a bit to whiney at times but it
doesn't bother me enough to not listen.

I do like the audio effects that Fry has on his, like an echo chamber
of sorts.  He uses it when Harry is recalling things other people have
said to him or when Bagman amplifies his voice at the World cup and
Triwizard competition.

Let's hope your librarian friend is right and I don't see how they
wouldn't use Dale again, unless he is getting tired of doing
it...don't think so .

Karen