Harry Haters and the Lack of Proof

[annemehr]

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <bboy_mn at y...> wrote:
> I'm going to try one more time. My original post, of which a portion
> is included here, was shot down my the MODS for excessive sarcasm 
and
> biting wit. Or perhaps because I was just a little too obnoxious 
which
> I admit I was.

Annemehr:
Dang. I would've liked to have seen that one! ;>  Oh, okay, let's just 
discuss this one, then...

> bboy_mn (tries again):
> 
> Referring to the people who protest against HP.
> 
> "They are such pathetic sheep, who are so afraid to think for
> themselves, that they will eagerly follow the loudest voice in the
> crowd regardless of what that voice is saying."
> 
> I know that's harsh, perhaps bordering on mean-spirited, and I
> certainly don't mean it to include all people who have taken a stand
> against HP, but there really are a significant number of people in
> this world who are desparate for someone else to tell them what to
> believe in. That very thing is, in fact, something the Bible warns 
us
> to watch out for. "Not all those who call my name will enter the
> kingdom of heaven."

Annemehr:
I will also add that it seems there are plenty of people (of whatever 
belief system) who like to believe all the "doom and gloom" scenarios. 
You know, the ones that say "the Catholic Church is the Antichrist", 
"the end times are near", the "one world government conspiracy is 
everywhere", whatever (and not all are of Christian origin -- those 
are just the ones I know best). This would help explain *some* of the 
popularity of the "Left Behind" series (although you can certainly 
enjoy them either as fantasy or as merely a possibility without being 
convinced it's all about to happen) and Nostradamus.  There seems to 
be a real taste for this stuff out there among some people.  Thinking 
HP is going to corrupt millions of children has equal attractions.

Now I'm going to insert a disclaimer that "doom and gloom" can 
certainly happen in real life, just not nearly as often as it seems to 
be looked for (e.g. all the times someone thought the world was going 
to end on a certain date -- yet it's got to end sometime).

 
> DumbleDad added:
> 
> >>>I've nothing against witchcraft and wizardry (other than that 
> it doesn't really work) but those who do, on religious grounds or
> otherwise, would find the lack of judgement against witchcraft and
> wizardry a problem with the HP series. <<<
> 
> 
> bboy_mn respond (now trying to surpress his sarcarm):
> 
> In really life, witchcraft and wizardry (also know as Wicca) are
> perfectly valid benevolent belief systems. They are in no way 
Satanic
> or evil, and therefore do not need any defending and there is little
> or no judgement that needs to be made against them or about them.

Annemehr:
Well, the injunction against "sorcery" (as my Bible has the word) was 
not against Wicca per se but against any type of divination, as I read 
it -- against things like the Oracle, or calling on the spirits of the 
dead for information.  It would seem, in modern life, to warn against, 
say, living your life by your horoscope instead of using your own 
reason to judge the right things to do.

I also would add that a belief system that holds that it is wrong to 
use any type of "magic" at all is just as valid as Wicca; their 
adherents hold different views, but as long as they *leave each other 
alone* there is nothing wrong with that.  For *any* belief system that 
exists, I'm sure there are some people who think it is good, some who 
are basically indifferent, and some who think it is evil.  So, I guess 
I agree with Dumbledad on this one.

bboy_mn:
> 
> The other form of witchcraft and wizardry is storybook, fairytale, 
TV,
> and movie witchcraft and wizardry which is completely fake and only
> exists to get us to part with our money for the priviledge of 
feeling
> our adrenaline flowing heavily for a period of time.
> 
> Frequently, in this fairytale variety, you will find [...] good 
witches and wizards, and 
bad
> witches and wizards.
> 
> Occassionally, people of limited intelligence combined with
> considerable mental instability will try to bring the fairytale
> witchcraft into the really world. Like most people who pervert
> doctrines to suit their own ends, these people are perverting the
> concept of witchcraft to justify the evil the intend to do. They do
> not serve a doctrine but twist a doctrine to serve themselves. 
<snip>

Annemehr:
Well, apparently, they are afraid the fantasy magic will cause a sort 
of "Jackass" phenomenon (how many news stories have you seen about 
people doing stupid things in imitation of that movie?) -- that 
children will imitate the book and attempt magic -- and that real 
demons will take advantage of it (either that, or they're banking that 
their audience will be afraid of this).  I have heard of people 
believing this before -- you  think you are just playing around 
with a Ouija board, but unbeknownst to you, a real demon starts 
communicating with you and you are now under his evil influence.  The 
"Jackass" imitators are real.  The children who wave pretend wands and 
shout "alohomora!" and "wingardium leviosa!" are real (mine, for 
instance).  It is perhaps easy to persuade some people that the 
children will get into trouble just as the "J" imitators do, via the 
"demons."  And, as I said above, some people *like* to be so 
persuaded.  Not that we've seen any news stories about that, though, 
have we?

bboy_mn: 
> Now off my soapbox and onto my collector's edition Harry Potter's
> defenders podium (available in oak, walnut or maple finishes; I have 
> oak).

Annemehr:
Can I have the maple one, then?

bboy_mn:
> 
> Harry Potter does make a judgement ABOUT witchcraft and wizardry; a
> very clear distinct judgement. That judgement is that evil people 
are
> evil, and good people are good; although it's kind of hard to tell 
who
> is who at times.
> 
> Again, there is no judgement that needs to be made against the 
'craft'
> because the 'craft' is morally neutral. It is the people and the use
> of their 'craft' that need to be judged. Voldemort perverts doctrine
> and magic in dark ways that do not serve the true craft but serve as
> tools, weapons, and justification for the things he wants.
> 
> There is a clear and undeniable sense of good and evil, right and
> wrong, just and unjust in the Harry Potter series. That's not just 
my
> belief, but the OFFICIAL spokespersons of every major religion has
> endorsed these books as having a solid moral foundation; Archbishop 
of
> Canterbury, Church of England, Catholic Church, major Protestant
> religions, and given the live and let live attitude of Eastern
> religious, I have to assume Buddhist, Shinto, Hindi, etc....
> 
> I think you will not find the proof you are seeking because it 
doesn't
> exist. The best you will be able to find is people's perverted
> twisting of truth and doctrine to meet their own ends.

Annemehr:
Just to add that you can't always tell who is cynically twisting 
doctrine as you describe, and who sincerely believes that, say, a 
child playing at "magic" can unwittingly allow a demon to take 
control.
> 
> That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
> 
> bboy_mn
> 
> PS: I never object to people evaluating and making judgements for
> themselves regardless of whether those judgements go against my own
> beliefs. I do object to people who try to speak for God, and 
demonize
> an aspect of popular culture, when they are so obviously doing it 
for
> their own ends. If a mother investigates and personally objects to 
the
> HP series and doesn't want her children to read it, I'm fine with
> that. If that mother is blindly following the proclaimation of some
> self-proclaimed arbiter of morallity, then in my opinion, she is
> failing in her moral duty to her religion, her children and herself.

Annemehr:
Do you leave any room for a religious leader (a pastor for instance) 
investigating HP, finding his objections, and then teaching it to his 
congregation?  You do not seem to object to religious leaders who 
endorse HP -- they do the same thing but reach different conclusions 
and teach them.  You call them the "official spokespersons," but there 
are a lot of Christian churches that are independent -- none of the 
mainline leaders are *their* official spokesperson, only the church's 
pastor is that. Many of these are the churches that tend to be the 
most conservative and most likely to object to magic in fiction. 

bboy_mn: 
> Any time we discuss religion, we tread on very shake ground. I hope 
in
> doing so, I haven't stepped on any toes.

Ditto.

And just to make it clear, I agree with you on the morality of HP 
(obviously!), and a lot of your post; I just don't think that *all* 
the religious leaders who vilify HP are *intentionally* twisting 
doctrine to suit their own ends.  It seems that I believe more of them 
to be merely "misguided" than you do, though if they haven't read it, 
I for one am not letting them off the hook!  I don't even get bothered 
by people who *buy* HP books to burn them (more royalties for JKR, and 
the publishers will print more). Just as long as they leave the rest 
of us alone!

Annemehr

P.S. It's hard to get all worked up about people standing on the shore 
trying to prevent a tidal wave from coming in!  ;)