From plumeski at yahoo.com  Sat Mar  1 00:13:51 2003
From: plumeski at yahoo.com (GulPlum <plumeski@yahoo.com>)
Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2003 00:13:51 -0000
Subject: Grammar and its complications
In-Reply-To: <3E5FE18B.000001.48845@monica>
Message-ID: <b3otvv+qrda@eGroups.com>

Kathryn Cawte wrote:

<snip>

> I used to hate reading plays at school. We rarely got to see them
> actually performed and it's just not the same reading them. It's no 
> wonder so many people view Shakespeare as boring having been made 
> to read some of his plays at school. Plays should be performed; 
> books should be read.

I always hated reading plays (and poetry) as well. However, at school 
I was fairly lucky as our teachers more or less established their own 
specific curriculum, and when it came to plays, they'd set an agenda 
based on theatre performances or cinema releases throughout the 
year. :-)

Please bear in mind that the school I went to had a heavy 
humanties/languages bent, and everyone who finished it was (in 
theory, if not necessarily in practice) at least trilingual, if not 
quadri-lingual (plus a couple of dead languages for good measure). 
That meant there was a LOT of literature to be studied in one 
language or another, and the number of badly performed classics from 
three cultures I saw as a teenager made me appreciate a decent 
production all the more. :-) 

> And how many other people around here were forced to learn certain 
> parts of Shakespeare etc at school and can *still* quote the darn 
> things? It really makes you wish that other text book were written 
> like that. I mean I'm doing an MA in Medieval Studies but can I 
> remember useful dates? no. Can I still quote passages from the 
> Merchant of venice and Macbeth that I learnt at school - hell yes.

I have a memory like a sieve. I mean that in the sense that it's very 
selective about what it chooses to imprint. Things like huge swathes 
of text or lists of dates are maintained for as long as I need them 
to perform or sit an exam. After that, I maintain nothing more than a 
vague image of what once was. After all, what are books (and 
paticularly reference books) for, if not to keep a record of 
information of which I do NOT require instant recall? 

I have a vague idea of who says what in Shakespeare's plays but I 
don't need to remember quotes: my Dictioonary of Quotations and 
Complete Shakespeare do that for me. Neither do I need to remember 
the exact dates of battles, or say, in terms of hobbies, the dates 
that films were released (my brother has an encycolpeadic memory for 
that kind of thing, and can tell you the winner of every major Oscar 
in any order you wish since the awards were invented). My dad can 
recite poems he was taught at school 70 years ago, but I can barely 
manage the first couple of sentences of a short text I needed to 
memorise for a meeting last week!

I have reference books (and the Internet) for that kind of thing, and 
prefer to spend my time *thinking* about things rather than 
regurgitating them.

Going back to a subject raised a couple of days ago, I have a very 
visual memory (I've never been tested, but trust my experience). For 
instance, in terms of HP quotes, I can rarely remember exact quotes 
(of narrative or of speech) but I am able very quickly to find any 
text I need very quickly in the books (which I've only read twice, 
which isn't much by HP fandom standards!) :-) and actually can 
remember whereabouts on the page most of the often-quoted passages 
are, even if I can't remember the text itself. When quoting canon on 
the main list, I'm aways deleting "top of the page", "middle of the 
chapter" or things like that from my references. :-)

Similarly, if asked to quote some of the movies I've seen many, many 
times (those on the HPFGU-Movie list will know that I've seen CoS 
over 30 times; that is *far* from being my record for a single 
movie!) :-) I'm usually very hard pressed to recall a quote exactly. 
But I can usually remember camera moves or frame arrangements in 
terrific detail. 

Strangely enough, though, when reading a book (any book) I don't 
actually have a very sharp mental image of what the characters look 
like, regardless of how well they're described. As a result, seeing 
PS/SS before reading the HP books had absolutely no effect on the way 
I imagine the characters, or indeed the whole Potterverse. ;-)






From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca  Sat Mar  1 01:05:27 2003
From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (lucky_kari <lucky_kari@yahoo.ca>)
Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2003 01:05:27 -0000
Subject: School Poetry and Shakespeare
In-Reply-To: <3E5FE18B.000001.48845@monica>
Message-ID: <b3p10n+sjrv@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Kathryn Cawte" 
<kcawte at b...> wrote:
> And how many other people around here were forced to learn certain 
parts of
> Shakespeare etc at school and can *still* quote the darn things? 

That'd be Johnson for me. From Grade Five. My personal Snape was 
quite stuck on this poem. IIRC, it went like this. 

Weep with me, all you who read this little story. 
And know for whom a tear is shed, death's self is sorry. 
'Twas a child that so did thrive in grace and feature.
That heaven and nature seemed to strive which owned the creature....

And so on. I recite this out of the blue at social occasions quite 
often.

I would have liked reading Shakespeare, if only my fellow students 
weren't such horrible readers. In "King Lear" I was chewing the 
furniture reading Edmund, and everyone else was stumbling through 
their lines. 

Eileen




From lilac_bearry at yahoo.com  Sat Mar  1 01:46:10 2003
From: lilac_bearry at yahoo.com (Lilac)
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 17:46:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Mr. Rogers
Message-ID: <20030301014610.81042.qmail@web40304.mail.yahoo.com>


Melody, your words were a very fitting and touching tribute to this gentle yet surprisingly influential man. Not many shows have lasted for 30+ years, especially shows featuring a soft-spoken man that never changes except when he's changing into cardigan sweaters and canvas shoes.

As for myself, I will always remember the little songs he sang on his show; songs that he himself wrote.  They were simple songs with simple tunes, yet they had beautiful and important messages for his impressionable young viewers... 

It's You I Like http://pbskids.org/rogers/songlist/song5.html 

(you need Real Player to listen to the songs)

"It's you I like, 
It's not the things you wear, 
It's not the way you do your hair--
But it's you I like 
The way you are right now, 
The way down deep inside you-- 
Not the things that hide you, 
Not your toys-- 
They're just beside you..." 

I'm Proud of You http://pbskids.org/rogers/songlist/song12.html 

"I'm proud of you. I'm proud of you.
I hope that you're as proud as
I am proud of you.
I'm proud of you.
I hope that you are proud

And that you're
Learning how important you are,
How important each person you see can be.
Discovering each one's specialty
Is the most important learning..."

Everybody's Fancy http://pbskids.org/rogers/songlist/song4.html

"Some are fancy on the outside. 
Some are fancy on the inside. 
Everybody's fancy. 
Everybody's fine. 
Your body's fancy and so is mine..."

One of my favorite songs is not on the website, but it starts like :"It's the style to wear a smile / do you know how to put one on your face..."  It has a wonderful, happy tune that makes you smile by just listening to it.  

I loved how the off-stage piano player improvised little tunes as Mr. Rogers was walking around his house.   I also loved the little sound-effects the piano made to go along with whatever Mr. Rogers was doing -- a little trill for each shake of the fish food or a flourish when he was tossing his shoe to his other hand, for instance.  

But the most fascinating part to me was how this piano player knew exactly when Mr. Rogers was going to start singing one of the aforementioned songs.  The piano would transition smoothly from the jazzy improvisations to the actual tune and then -- almost like magic -- singing and accompaniment would start at *exactly* the same moment, seemingly out of nowhere.  My childhood imagination thought that Mr. Rogers and the piano player could read each other's mind!  That was pure magic to me.

Mr. McFeeley, I have a Speedy Delivery for you...would you please take this thank-you note to Mr. Rogers?  It says, "Thank-you for being a part of my life as well as my children's lives.  The world is a better place because you shared yourself with all of us.  May you rest in peace".

Thanks, Mr. McFeeley.   And thank-you, Mr. Rogers.

~Lilac, who just had to share that, and is worried that "other's" should have been "others' " and "children's" should have been "childrens' ", and really isn't sure which one is correct, and wonders if that means she is kinda dumb, and now is worried about this run-on sentence, and is shutting up now. 

P.S.  This website has some advice for Parents and Teachers in helping children understand and cope with this sad event:

http://pbskids.org/rogers/parents/feb27.html



 

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

"Professor, can you show me that blocking thing again?"

Lockhart cuffed Harry merrily on the shoulder.  "Just do what I did, Harry!"

"What, drop my wand?"

 --Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Sat Mar  1 03:14:23 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve <bboy_mn@yahoo.com>)
Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2003 03:14:23 -0000
Subject: Mister Rogers
In-Reply-To: <b3makn+2e8k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b3p8if+8ruu@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Melody <Malady579 at h...>"
<Malady579 at h...> wrote:
> Torsten asked:
> > > *who (is) Mr Rogers?
> 
> 
> GulPlum wrote:
> > ... a major figure in children's TV in North America.
> 
> 
> As one of my friends told me recently...
> 
> You could say that.  You could also say the sky is blue.
> 
> You see.  Mister Rogers was a dear, dear man.  He was an honest,
> sensitive man.  *Always.*  
>
> ...edited...
> 
> Rest in peace Mister Rogers.
> 
> 
> Melody

bboy_mn:

Beautiful piece Melody, I don't think anyone could have describe Mr.
Rogers better.

As I finished an unrelated post, an odd thought came to me, as odd
thought frequently do. I pondered what is it that made Mr. Rogers so
special. We know he did it all wrong. Everyone knows a kids TV show
has to be loud with a lot of flashing colors, and has to have a good
share of slime and pie-in-the-face. And kids can't relate to adults,
you have to have other kids on the show or the young viewers won't
stay interested. 

What was it about Mr. Rogers that so thoroughly captivated us? How
could a man who did it all wrong, do it so very very right?

I asked myself these questions, and one word came to mind; enchanting.
Mr. Rogers had the power to enchant you; to attract and delight you,
to enthrall you.

Mr. Roger was an enchanting and indeed an enchanted man.

Mr. Rogers was a very special wizard.

Sorry to ramble, but when the word 'enchanting' came into my mind, I
was stunned by how thoroughly this one word could describe this man.

Just a thought.

bboy_mn





From tabouli at unite.com.au  Sat Mar  1 04:45:21 2003
From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli)
Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2003 15:45:21 +1100
Subject: SPAGridden and Ever So Evil household objects
Message-ID: <005101c2dfad$5ee509c0$45db32d2@price>

Despite all my mutterings about intellectual snobbery and ivory towers, I have to confess that bad spelling makes me gnash my teeth.  *Especially* when they're proudly displayed on glowing signs and billboards that have obviously been designed at great expense.

Take the day before yesterday, for example.  I was giving a presentation in a glitzy upper Collins Street (=central Melbourne's most upmarket street), and went to have lunch.  I steered wisely clear of Collins Street cafes and restaurants and made my way to the Collins Place food hall, where I bought some vague stirfry takeaway, sat down, glanced up and then stiffened.

In front of me was this funky little snack bar, all cool 70s orange lights and cube shaped seats in lurid colours.  Glowing funkily on the wall of said snack bar was a backlit picture of its new speciality: some sort of marinaded chicken schnitzel thing, all trussed up in funky lurid colours and groovy graphic designer selected fonts.  "From zero to 220 degrees celcius in two minutes!" it proclaimed happily.

I couldn't cope.  I had to turn my back on it.  Had I continued to look at this sign I would not have been able to stop myself ranting (at least in my head) "AAARGH!  If you are prepared to spend five figures on funky furniture and graphic design, couldn't you have spent one extra minute Checking The Spelling On Your Signs??  Haven't you ever looked at the knob on your funky chrome oven, which says "Celsius"??"  (or at least, I hope it does...).

Things are definitely getting worse.  I've been a spelling pendant since my teens and I'm sure I didn't see nearly as many cuppachinos and video's for sale then.  One of these days I swear I am going to buy a big black felt tipped pen and go on a correction rampage.

Then there was the time, a couple of years ago, when I did some data entry for an Honours Psychology student.  He had an open-ended, long answer survey on East Timor, which he handed out to first year Psychology students.  My job was to read their answers and rate them out of five for their compassion, level of awareness, and so on.  This I did.  However, in the process, the spelling I observed (and, I might add, from first year university students mostly specialising in the humanities at the university with the highest entry scores in the state) was enough to drive a spelling snob to drink.  Intelagence.  Compashon.  "When your in a safe country, you're prioraty's are diferent."

The memory still makes me shudder.

The Elk:
> There was a smooth roundish boulder in the woods near the house that I used 
to believe was Evil.  It was some glacial relic, much paler than all 
of the other various rocks and outcroppings that littered that part 
of the woods, and it had an indentation just the right shape to serve 
as a kind of a seat; in dim lighting, it seemed to gleam.  It scared 
me.  I called it "The Throne of the Bone" and believed that it was 
the ancient chair of some malign spirit.  I was absolutely convinced 
that it was trying to lure me into sitting down on it, but that if I 
ever once succumbed, it would be able to possess me and control my mind.<

Heh heh heh.  You really must write your memoirs one day, you know Elkins.

My own tale of Evil is far less dignified.  In fact, beside the Throne of the Bone it looks downright silly.  However.

When I was five, we wee ones were told at school that it was Mother's Day soon.  Great excitement ensued.  We got an illustrated list of gifts to choose from, including such timeless must-haves as lavender sachets, embroidered oven gloves, and scented handkerchiefs.  I myself was particularly taken by a pale pink, heart-shaped pincushion, edged with lace. I thought it was the most beautiful thing my five year old eyes had ever seen, and hastened to procure it for my mother.  I took it home, carefully wrapped in art class, and stashed it under my bed to wait for Mother's Day on the following Sunday.

Alas, on the Saturday, I contrived to have a prolonged and bitter fight with my mother.  I was furious.  I was going to run away from home.  I decided I wouldn't love her any more.  *That* would show her.  In fact, better still, I would refuse to give her her Mother's Day present, and then she'd be the only mother who didn't get one!  In fact, best of all, I would *CURSE* her Mother's Day present, and make it turn on her and punish her for being so mean!  HA!

Sniffing tragically, I ripped open the package and hurled the pincushion repeatedly at the wall, blistering with resentment.  I focussed all my five year old hatred on it.  I thought dark thoughts.  Then I shoved it back under my bed and forgot about it.

The next day, my mother was really nice to me.  So nice that I suddenly remembered the cursed pincushion under my bed and was seized with remorse.  My mother was nice after all, and I'd wanted to curse her!  I'd planned to withhold her Mother's Day present!  What a dreadful child I was!  Cringing with shame, I meekly told her that I had a present for her and slunk off to get it.  She was suitably grateful, and this made me feel even worse.  Looking at the pincushion in my mother's hands I felt a terrible guilt.  I hadn't lifted the curse!  What if something bad happened to her and it was all my fault?  It was a cursed gift, a gift given in spite not love!

>From that day forth, I devoutly believed that that pincushion, in all its pale pink, heart-shaped, lace-edged glory, was Evil.

I dreaded being sent to fetch something from my mother's sewing box.  I would lever the lid off with my jumper sleeves wrapped around my hands, and flick the pincushion aside with a stick before I dared look for anything inside.  So malign was the spirit infused in that pincushion, I was convinced that it had infected everything in the sewing box, from the spools of thread to the thimbles, and would hand my mother whatever she wanted and then retreat to my room rigid with fear and contamination.

I was foolish enough to tell my little brother about the evil pincushion (thought it was only fair to warn him), and he too started flicking it away with a stick, usually onto me.  He would then laugh at my terror at having had it touch me and run away, sneering about how stupid I was to be scared of a pincushion.  All the same, would he himself pick it up with his bare hands?  Ha!  Not a chance.  He didn't want to be cursed any more than I did.  My mother, of course, lived in blissful ignorance of the sinister object in her sewing box, and would actually sit there *holding it in her hand* while she sewed!  It made my blood run cold.

Decades later, she still has that pincushion, stashed away in her sewing box as before.  And I, of course, am *totally* over such childish nonsense.  Totally.

I just happen not to like sewing, that's all.

Tabouli.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From tabouli at unite.com.au  Sat Mar  1 04:47:53 2003
From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli)
Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2003 15:47:53 +1100
Subject: SPAGridden shame
Message-ID: <006001c2dfad$b96167e0$45db32d2@price>

Ahem.  The problem with declaring oneself anal about spelling and grammer is that the minute one does it, one is *bound* to make a slew of mistakes for everyone to point out.

How did I open my email on this subject?

"Despite all my mutterings about intellectual snobbery and ivory towers, I have to confess that bad spelling makes me gnash my teeth.  *Especially* when they're proudly displayed on glowing signs and billboards that have obviously been designed at great expense."

EURGH!  ""Especially" when IT'S proudly displayed, etc."   Or omit the "they're" altogether.

Dear dear dear.

Tabouli.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From sevothtarte at gmx.net  Sat Mar  1 05:00:59 2003
From: sevothtarte at gmx.net (Torsten)
Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2003 06:00:59 +0100
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Grammar and its complications
In-Reply-To: <3E5FE18B.000001.48845@monica>
Message-ID: <D8UTU9ROTNKGC9D8DBZULGSQXVFCYT.3e603e8b@tk>

Kathryn wrote:
>And how many other people around here were forced to learn certain parts of
>Shakespeare etc at school and can *still* quote the darn things?

What's in a name? that which we call grammar
By any other name would still be too difficult.

-Torsten






From lilpurplealdy at netscape.net  Sat Mar  1 06:56:04 2003
From: lilpurplealdy at netscape.net (Juliet <lilpurplealdy@netscape.net>)
Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2003 06:56:04 -0000
Subject: Oprah reintroducing book club: CLASSICS this time
In-Reply-To: <012e01c2df5b$92cb2500$6401a8c0@arvada1.co.home.com>
Message-ID: <b3pli4+g2o7@eGroups.com>

> I'm wondering if you all
> like the classics a lot, or moderately, or if you enjoy them at 
all?  

I guess I would go with a lot.  I'm still in High School, where one 
is *forced* to read the Classics(not that I'm complaining....much).  
I've enjoyed practially all of the ones I've read.  I've read Austen
(P&P!, Emma...I would suggest them to you!), and I enjoyed both of 
them.  I've also read Bronte, one Hemmingway, Tolkien...eh...hmm... I 
read Uncle Tom's Cabin, The Scarlet Letter, The Three Musketeers, 
Ivanhoe...I think that's about it.  There are probably more I either 
can't remember, or I blocked them out ;).


>        (`'?.?(`'?.? ?.?'?)?.?'?)
>      ???`?..*Julie*..???`?  (Slytherincess)
>        (?.?'(?.?'? `'?.?)`'?.?)


~Aldrea, admiring Julie's signature and wondering how many of the 
books she named are going to be considered *not* classics...




From tabouli at unite.com.au  Sat Mar  1 11:28:15 2003
From: tabouli at unite.com.au (Tabouli)
Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2003 22:28:15 +1100
Subject: SPAGridden with shame
Message-ID: <001d01c2dfe5$a7efa340$842c32d2@price>

Me:
> "I've been a spelling pendant since my teens"

This is clearly not my day, is it?  I tell you.  Announcing oneself a spelling pedant is just *inviting* embarrassing errors into one's emails.  Inviting them with a gilt-edged invitation and an entreaty to wear silver spandex so that *no-one* can possibly miss them!

(hangs head, detatches necklace of spelling snobbery and casts it aside, crimson-cheeked)

Tabouli (fingering her shiny new pendant and avoiding everyone's eyes)







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From plumeski at yahoo.com  Sat Mar  1 12:04:13 2003
From: plumeski at yahoo.com (GulPlum <plumeski@yahoo.com>)
Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2003 12:04:13 -0000
Subject: SPAGridden with shame
In-Reply-To: <001d01c2dfe5$a7efa340$842c32d2@price>
Message-ID: <b3q7jt+at4h@eGroups.com>

Tabouli wrote:
> > "I've been a spelling pendant since my teens"
> 
> (hangs head, detatches necklace of spelling snobbery and casts it
> aside, crimson-cheeked)

Don't worry. 

Rule of the Internet 101: "Any online communication the subject of 
which is correct grammar or spelling, will inevitably itself contain 
an equally or more grievous error."

That rule has bitten me before, and will doubtless do it again. :-) 

BTW, talking of pedantry: to Steve (BBoy_mn), with that in mind (and 
in  a spirit of fun rather than of *making* fun of people)...

in a message on the main list, you wondered whether you'd used "it's" 
properly. You had. Top marks. :-)

However, in the previous paragraph, you said "... someone who's 
personality..." "Who's" is an abbreviation for "Who is"/"who has". 
The spelling you want here is "whose" (as I said in a previous 
message, in English, genitive forms of pronouns do not take 
apostrophes, hence "its", "his", "ours", and of course "whose", 
etc.). 

-- 
GulPlum AKA Richard, who is sure that despite having proof-read this 
message, he has doubtless missed a glaring mistake somewhere and is 
open to flames... :-) 
(P.S. I'm off for three days. No more from me until Tuesday.)





From ression at hotmail.com  Sat Mar  1 15:44:25 2003
From: ression at hotmail.com (ER <ression@hotmail.com>)
Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2003 15:44:25 -0000
Subject: Ellipsis (was Mr. Rogers -- crayons -- grammar)
In-Reply-To: <027601c2df53$57bf9c50$9865fea9@Frodo>
Message-ID: <b3qkgp+9vto@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "heiditandy" <heidit at n...> 

>Heidi, who didn't realise that there should be four dots in an 
elipse at the end of a sentence until she started beta reading

I didn't know that! I always use three. And I put a space before 
them. So too does JKR. Is this a UK v US thing? Four looks way too 
many, though I couldn't say why three looks right :)) Does it get 
changed in the American editions? Any qualified grammarians out there?

Is elipse the standard American spelling? I'd have used ellipsis or 
ellipse.

ER





From insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk  Sat Mar  1 16:26:03 2003
From: insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk (Scott <insanus_scottus@yahoo.co.uk>)
Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2003 16:26:03 -0000
Subject: Ellipsis
In-Reply-To: <b3qkgp+9vto@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b3qmur+onl8@eGroups.com>

> I didn't know that! I always use three. And I put a space before 
> them. So too does JKR. Is this a UK v US thing? Four looks way too 
> many, though I couldn't say why three looks right :)) Does it get 
> changed in the American editions? Any qualified grammarians out 
there?
> 
> Is elipse the standard American spelling? I'd have used ellipsis 
or 
> ellipse.
> 
> ER

Although I may be misinformed (and a disclaimer always seems healthy 
when speaking of one's own less than sundry grammar skills) it is 
known simply as an ellipsis. Perhaps elipse is a singular spelling? 

The point, however, is that there are three dots (...) when the 
ellipsis comes within a sentence, and there are four dots (....) 
when the ellipsis comes at the end, the forth dot thus functioning 
as a period/full stop. If this is unique to US grammar I was not 
aware of it.

I don't think "dot" is the correct term, but I cannot think of what 
it might be.

Scott
Who finds the recent slew of grammar posts far too enjoyable, but is 
still too shy to comment, knowing what a hypocrite he should 
immediately become.  

(I apologise for the inevitable mistakes in this message.)






From tahewitt at yahoo.com  Sat Mar  1 17:04:17 2003
From: tahewitt at yahoo.com (Tyler Hewitt)
Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2003 09:04:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: spelling and grammar, etc.
In-Reply-To: <1046527127.530.22170.m12@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20030301170417.55981.qmail@web14204.mail.yahoo.com>

A flurry of posts about spelling and grammar usage
lately. I was avoiding joining in, but that obviously
hasn't worked well for me!
I hate seeing mispellings and improper use of grammar,
it's annoying and frustating. As an educator who makes
his students write evaluations of every assignment
they turn in (in studio Art classes), I get to se lots
of bad writing.

But, I can also be forgiving, and it is mainly a
question of circumstance. Papers, advertising,
anything published, etc. should be proofread and
cleaned up. E-mail messages, posts to online
digests,etc. are by their very nature more immediate
and ephemeral, and should be treated that way.

I am a horrid typist. I freely admit this. I also
admit to almost never running spell check on outgoing
e-mail messages. I usually proofread before seding
them off, but I often miss things. This message, for
example, has already been corrected several times in
process, but will most likely contain mistakes when I
finally push the 'send' button.

The difference between this message and something more
'official' is one of casualness. I fully accept a
casual tone in e-mail messages.

Another issue regarding English usage is one of
accepting a fluid language whose standard rules
basically remain the same, yet whose common usage is
always changing. I generally accept non-standard uses
of English, a living language should contain these.
This is a matter of degrees for me as well.
'Apostrophe S' errors are lazy, sloppy and annoy me,
but I say 'ain't' all the time. 

Basically,I consider the context before letting
grammar and spelling errors raise my blood pressure.
And, I try not to worry about things I can't control!
Tyler

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/



From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Sat Mar  1 18:17:29 2003
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David <dfrankiswork@netscape.net>)
Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2003 18:17:29 -0000
Subject: Ellipsis and rules of spelling
In-Reply-To: <b3qkgp+9vto@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b3qtfp+ps4f@eGroups.com>

> Heidi revealed: 
> 
> >Heidi, who didn't realise that there should be four dots in an 
> elipse at the end of a sentence until she started beta reading

ER responded:
> 
> I didn't know that! I always use three. And I put a space before 
> them. So too does JKR. 

I suspect that, along with ER and JKR, nearly all of us didn't know 
that rule.

I think it is questionable that a rule which hardly anybody knows or 
keeps can be so called.  It may be a Fictionalley rule, but there is 
no final authority for spelling and grammar in English other than 
what people do.

So if the three dot ellipsis, or the grocer's apostrophe, or 
whatever, marches on, then in a century or so, people who insist on 
the current 'proper' usage may be regarded as antiquated.  Just as 
we don't write "chuse" for "choose" or say "an hotel" for "a hotel".

Hopefully we will learn to live with it; as the saying has it, it is 
better to travel hopefully than to arrive.

David




From golden_faile at yahoo.com  Sat Mar  1 18:37:19 2003
From: golden_faile at yahoo.com (golden faile)
Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2003 10:37:19 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Mister Rogers
In-Reply-To: <b3nl9d+s79s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20030301183719.34661.qmail@web41101.mail.yahoo.com>


 
 "Lisa <dozierwoman at hotmail.com>" <dozierwoman at hotmail.com> wrote:
> Really, to me, Mister Rogers was a show and a man I watched as a kid
> that was kind of basic and simple.  I don't really know why he was 
so
> enchanting to me and my brother.  We just laid there in the middle 
of
> the living room floor with our heads sharing the same pillow 
watching
> the show over and over.
> 
> Rest in peace Mister Rogers.
> 
> 
> Melody

You know, I had tears in my eyes when I found out about his death. I never knew I cared so much, it's like a part of my childhood was ripped away. I watched the show in between Sesame Street and The Electric Company when I was young. Waiting for the more exciting shows. I never quite realized that while I was waiting for the excitement, that I was learning quite a deal(he always managed to hold my interest inspite of myself). Mr. Rogers to me, is like that old uncle that you don't realize you'll miss until he's gone. I'll miss him.

Laila
Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
var lrec_target="_top";var lrec_URL = new Array();lrec_URL[1] = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.2974023.4304644.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1707544108:HM/A=1430287/R=0/id=flashurl/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405";var link="javascript:LRECopenWindow(1)";var lrec_flashfile = 'http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/intl_library_of_poetry/yahoo_300x250.swf?clickTAG='+link+'';var lrec_altURL = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.2974023.4304644.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1707544108:HM/A=1430287/R=1/id=altimgurl/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405";var lrec_altimg = "http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/intl_library_of_poetry/yahoo_300x250.gif";var lrec_width = 300;var lrec_height = 250;
________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________

Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the group's Admin Files!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/

Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying!

Is your message...
An announcement of merchandise, news etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements.
Movie-related? Send it to HPFGU-Movie.
Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups.
None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter.
Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com

Unsubscribing? Email HPFGU-OTChatter-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
____________________________________________________________ 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From skelkins at attbi.com  Sat Mar  1 18:47:41 2003
From: skelkins at attbi.com (ssk7882 <skelkins@attbi.com>)
Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2003 18:47:41 -0000
Subject: Ellipsis and rules of spelling
In-Reply-To: <b3qtfp+ps4f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b3qv8d+rae1@eGroups.com>

David wrote:

> Hopefully we will learn to live with it; as the saying has it, it 
> is better to travel hopefully than to arrive.

Or so one hopes.


"Elkins"




From pottersangel76 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar  1 18:53:20 2003
From: pottersangel76 at yahoo.com (Alyssa Bilano)
Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2003 10:53:20 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Mr. Rogers -- crayons
In-Reply-To: <20030228173859.70702.qmail@web41102.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20030301185320.11610.qmail@web21305.mail.yahoo.com>


I always watched his show as a kid,and still watch it as a matter of fact.He made me feel like I was a good kid.He was my all time favorite neighboor.
Love,
Riddlegirl
 Sternel <starling823 at yahoo.com> wrote:
melody wrote:

> Sometimes Mr. Rogers would take us to trips to the
music store to
> learn new instruments.  It was the first time I ever
saw a "saw"
> played with a violin bow.  He would also go to the
"local" school to
> show us that there is nothing to fear about
kindergarten and the
> school bus drivers are friendly.  He would show how
to buckle
> shoes...and oh, oh, he had this one video where he
showed about how
> crayons are made.  Now I was so sure that *that* was
the coolest 
thing
> I had ever seen.  Zillions of little red and blue
and yellow crayons
> zooming around in conveyor belts.  I do so love to
color you know.

::happy gasp:: i had COMPLETELY forgotten about that
until now!  I remember that video, and they had the
mounds and mounds of crayons -- and i remember being
so jealous of the people who worked in that factory,
because as everyone knows, being the first person to
handle a fresh crayon that still has the nice little
point on it is one of the best things in the world.  
That, and the "Peanut Butter" video from Sesame Street
were two of my absolute favorite things.  And I hadn't
thought about them in age.

I'm finding I'm really not as sad about Mr. Roger's
passing as I thought I'd be.  I'm sorry for the loss
of a great soul, but Mr. Rogers lived a long and
incredibly full life, and left an indelible mark all
of us who grew up watching him -- what better legacy
could one hope to leave?  I feel so privilaged to have
grown up watching.

Abbie, who loved childhood

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
var lrec_target="_top";var lrec_URL = new Array();lrec_URL[1] = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.2974023.4304644.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1707544108:HM/A=1430287/R=0/id=flashurl/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405";var link="javascript:LRECopenWindow(1)";var lrec_flashfile = 'http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/intl_library_of_poetry/yahoo_300x250.swf?clickTAG='+link+'';var lrec_altURL = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.2974023.4304644.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1707544108:HM/A=1430287/R=1/id=altimgurl/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405";var lrec_altimg = "http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/intl_library_of_poetry/yahoo_300x250.gif";var lrec_width = 300;var lrec_height = 250;
________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________

Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the group's Admin Files!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/

Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying!

Is your message...
An announcement of merchandise, news etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements.
Movie-related? Send it to HPFGU-Movie.
Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups.
None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter.
Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com

Unsubscribing? Email HPFGU-OTChatter-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
____________________________________________________________ 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com  Sat Mar  1 20:09:48 2003
From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent <psychic_serpent@yahoo.com>)
Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2003 20:09:48 -0000
Subject: Ellipsis and rules of spelling
In-Reply-To: <b3qtfp+ps4f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b3r42c+n9r1@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "David <dfrankiswork at n...>" 
<dfrankiswork at n...> wrote:
> > Heidi revealed: 
> > 
> > >Heidi, who didn't realise that there should be four dots in an 
> > elipse at the end of a sentence until she started beta reading
> 
> ER responded:
> > 
> > I didn't know that! I always use three. And I put a space before 
> > them. So too does JKR. 
> 
> I suspect that, along with ER and JKR, nearly all of us didn't 
> know that rule.
> 
> I think it is questionable that a rule which hardly anybody knows 
> or keeps can be so called.  It may be a Fictionalley rule, but 
> there is no final authority for spelling and grammar in English 
> other than what people do.

I don't know about that, since people do a lot of things incorrectly 
when writing in English.  There ARE rules of grammar and 
punctuation, even though some of them may not make sense to some 
folks.

I learned the rules about ellipses when I was in high school, 
working on research papers for the first time.  When quoting a 
source directly, instead of paraphrasing, we were taught that 
anything we did not include in the middle of the quote (what we 
would call "snipping" online) is replaced with three periods if it 
is in the middle of a sentence and the continuation of the quote is 
part of the same sentence.  If the "snipped" portion was followed by 
something in another sentence, in order to indicate that the 
previous sentence had ended (even though the text was not given in 
the quoted material) we were supposed to use four dots (the ellipsis 
is still three dots, but the period being added indicates that the 
sentence has ended).  One never puts a space before the dots.  They 
are supposed to follow directly after the end of the previous word.

It is also very easy to determine how to punctuate dialogue, 
contrary to an earlier post claiming that the rules for this do not 
make sense.  If the text adjacent to the quote is giving information 
about who is speaking, it is considered to be the same sentence.  If 
this information is not given in the adjacent text, it is a separate 
sentence.  For instance:

"Hi, Harry!  How was your holiday?" asked Colin.

is one sentence because the nonquoted text concerns who spoke and 
how they spoke ("asked").  The "how" could be any sort of verb like 
shouted, whispered, said, inquired, etc.  As long as the text 
identifies the speaker and how they spoke, it's part of the same 
sentence.  As such, this text should not begin with a capital 
letter, like this:

"Hi, Harry!  How was your holiday?" Asked Colin.

This is something we see frequently at Fiction Alley.  An author 
doing this is treating the nonquoted text as a new sentence by 
capitalizing it.  True, it follows a questions mark, which might 
normally be considered the end of a sentence.  However, in this 
case, it is only the end of a quote, and necessary because the 
quoted material is a question.  Question marks, exclamation marks 
and commas are acceptable endings for quotes, as it is permissible 
to continue the sentence after that with unquoted material 
pertaining to the speaker.  A period at the end of the above quote 
would not be correct (even if the quote is were not a question).  A 
period is only ever a full stop.  Question marks and exclamation 
marks are not necessarily full stops.  They are communicating 
certain ways of speaking when used in quotes.  They are only full 
stops when used in unquoted material.

Some folks want to link material to quotes that should be separate, 
such as:

Hermione put her books down, "Oh, I have so much work to do!"

While the quote being adjacent to a passage mentioning Hermione 
strongly implies that she is the speaker, the passage doesn't 
actually contain any verb concerning how she spoke.  It should 
appear as a separate sentence:

Hermione put her books down. "Oh, I have so much work to do!"

If the author wanted to link the two passages, a "speaking" verb 
would have to be included:

Hermione put her books down, groaning, "Oh, I have so much work to 
do!"

Now it is one sentence.  A quote can be considered to be something 
like an object in a sentence.  An example of a sentence with a 
subject, verb and object is, "He hit the ball," with "he" being the 
subject, "hit" being the verb and "the ball" being the object.  If 
the sentence were a quote, it might be, "He said, 'I'll be there.'"  
The entire quote can be considered an object in the sentence.  
Within that, ideally, the quote will be grammatical, but in English, 
rules for this are more flexible, since quotes are reflecting how 
people speak.

Since I'm not spending much time dinging on FA lately, that will 
have to suffice for my contribution to better grammar and 
punctuation in the world. :D

--Barb

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent
http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb

Chapter 17 of the Triangle Prophecy is up!
http://www.schnoogle.com/cgi-bin/links/jump.cgi?ID=7497






From m.bockermann at t-online.de  Sat Mar  1 21:23:28 2003
From: m.bockermann at t-online.de (m.bockermann at t-online.de)
Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2003 22:23:28 +0100
Subject: Reading, Writing, and Multiple Choice plus other stuff
References: <1046480732.2576.66926.m1@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <015201c2e03a$510e1e80$f4429fc1@bockerma>

Hi everybody!

I was offline for a couple of days, so I summarize several answers in one post.

This has turned into a really fascinating debate. And quite helpful for me on a personal level, too. I'm a "Referendarin" a teacher-in-training. In addition to teaching in school we attend theory seminar where we discuss all kinds of questions regarding schooling and education. Since German school kids did so poorly on recent international (for example PISA) we frequently discuss solution our "Kultusminister" (cultural minister who is also responsible for education) and other officials come up with. Some of these are... controversial, to say the least. In any case it's interesting that some of the "solutions" are inspired by aspects from other school systems, like that of Britain or the US for example. Defenders of these ideas sell them as innovative, critics claim they are just meant to save money.


Barb wrote:
If only it was a priority to politicians to make certain that 
students who need remedial help aren't left behind and students that 
are advanced don't languish, bored, in settings that waste their 
potential, because of the theory that students of a like age should 
stay together.  Instead we just get saber-rattling and jingoism.  
They're probably afraid that a better-educated populace would know 
better than to re-elect them.  Never let it be said politicians 
don't have priorities: to keep their jobs.


Me:
Here in Germany, every of our countries has its own educational system (which has been much criticized, but introducing a common one is as likely as the world peace breaking out tomorrow). Anyway, in my native Northrhine-Westphalia they continue to introduce "Gesamtschulen" common schools, where pupils attend a single secondary school and share most classes, like in an American High school. Many politicians would like to replace the traditional three-folded secondary schools Hauptschule, Realschule and Gymnasium where children are grouped according to their ability with the common schools. Critics however describe the same problems that you do, making me doubt the concept even more.

It seems to me Barb, that your children would do better in a school with higher requirements.

Does no other school system here demand that student repeat a year if they grades don't suffice? As far as I know that is the case in the US, but what about Britain or other nations? While the rules to "staying seated" have been loosened here in Westphalia, the end of each school year is still dreaded by many students whose grades won't enable them to move to the next year or maybe change to a school form with lower requirements. It's hard for them and their parents. Now that I already work in school, I learned that it is hard for their teachers as well to put them back a year. On the other hand I *do* believe that in the longer run it is better for them personally and for the schools generally.

Concerning multiple choice tests: they are an *absolute* no-no here. There must be nothing worse for a young teacher than to confess that she sees some merit in multiple choice questions. Educational suicide. The powers that are regard them as boring, bad, preventing pupils from expressing themthelves.... Me? I would not have them for everything, but I don't condemn them like that either. Well, you'll never find me fanatical about anything, HP being an exception. (-;


I don't recall who wrote, regarding mimeographs:
They would look out over a sea of faces and see the whole class sniffing their tests.

Me:
Oh, I recall those! They got less and less at the end of my career as a pupil but I dare say, photocopies will never give me that sense of nostalgia. (-;


Catlady wrote:
Most of the non-native English speakers write better spelling, 
grammer, and style than most of the native speakers ... I had no idea 
that you weren't a native speaker until you said so just now, but I 
would have counted you as one of the native speakers who do write 
well.

Thanks. (-: And thanks too, to the others who answered to that question.... I had wondered for a long time.


Torsten wrote, regarding new German spelling:
And then try to get used to spellings like "Seeelefant". *_*

My personal nummer one on the hate list is "St?ngel" instead of "Stengel" (stalk). *shudder* I know its not as impressive as "Seeelefant" but in biology class I need it more often and it's so.... ridiculous. Logical, yes. But in my part of Westphalia (East-Westphalia Lippe) we draw our vowels a bit too long anyway. Somehow that makes it worse. )-: 

Actually, the new rules are not bad. For example they reduced more than 50 (!) rules for commas alone (*not* counting exeptions) into half a dozen. The problem remains that my internal editor that insists on old spelling resurges every time I stand in front of a blackboard. )))-:


Torsten added later:
Again, when I was a pupil (damn, writing this makes me feel old) our non-language 
teachers could decrease our marks if we made too many mistakes in our writing in any 
test. So if a maths or biology test required a lot of written answers and you totally 
messed your grammar and spelling up, you could get a worse mark than someone who 
had the 'facts' just as correct at you but wrote correct German, even if there was no 
problem understanding your answers despite your mistakes. Don't know if they still 
have that today, not that many teachers seemed to enforce this back in my days.
Back then we all thought this to be unfair - "It's a MATHS test after all, not 
German!" - but now I think it's a good thing, if there's consideration of special cases 
like formerly foreign pupils.

Yes, they still do it. It is especially in the final three years of the Gymnasium (the secondary school form with the highest requirement). How much it is enforced however, depends on the spelling and grammar abilities of the teacher. And yep, pupils *still* hate it. And I still believe it's a good idea.


Kenneth, thanks for your list of grammar rules. Wonderful! Delightful! Did you make those up yourself?

Greetings,
Ethanol








From urbana at charter.net  Sat Mar  1 22:10:08 2003
From: urbana at charter.net (Anne <urbana@charter.net>)
Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2003 22:10:08 -0000
Subject: SPAGridden and Ever So Evil household objects
In-Reply-To: <005101c2dfad$5ee509c0$45db32d2@price>
Message-ID: <b3rb40+4jtj@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Tabouli" <tabouli at u...> 
wrote:
> Things are definitely getting worse.  I've been a spelling pendant 
since my teens 

"Tabouli, darling, you're a spelling PEDANT, not pendant," says Anne 
U, who obviously *is* a spelling pedant (as in pedantic, and those of 
us who are pedantic are said to engage in pedantry). And pendants are 
actually much nicer than pedants, IMO :-)


>and I'm sure I didn't see nearly as many cuppachinos

Perhaps that's the slang spelling for a cup of cappuccino -- a 
cuppachino ...

 >Intelagence.  Compashon.  "When your in a safe country, you're 
prioraty's are diferent."
> 
> The memory still makes me shudder.

AAAARRRRGGGGHHH !! And now you're making ME shudder :-( I do see 
spelling about that bad from some children I know, but they're mostly 
9-12 years old.... however it seriously annoys (not aggravates) me 
that these are words that I knew and could spell perfectly when I was 
8 (back when dinosaurs roamed the earth), but today many 12 year olds 
cannot ... but again, I'm truly a compulsive speller (used to win the 
spelling bees in my class quite regularly).


> Decades later, she still has that pincushion, stashed away in her 
sewing box as before.  And I, of course, am *totally* over such 
childish nonsense.  Totally.
> 
> I just happen not to like sewing, that's all.
>

Perhaps you should find a good un-cursing charm so you can face up to 
all those pincushions??

Anne U
(who gave up on sewing years ago...even a good pincushion couldn't 
help me)






From ression at hotmail.com  Sat Mar  1 22:54:06 2003
From: ression at hotmail.com (ER <ression@hotmail.com>)
Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2003 22:54:06 -0000
Subject: Ellipsis and rules of spelling
In-Reply-To: <b3r42c+n9r1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b3rdme+mssc@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "psychic_serpent 
<psychic_serpent at y...>" <psychic_serpent at y...> wrote:

>One never puts a space before the dots. They are supposed to follow 
directly after the end of the previous word.

I don't understand that either! Since the dots are replacing the 
missing words, it seems logical that they should occupy the same 
position and be separated by a space. And it looks so damn ugly!

I do (now) see the logic of the four dots - I hadn't considered the 
possibility that what was originally a separate sentence could be 
read as part of the previous one. But, I don't think I've ever seen 
it in print.

I don't even want to think about what happens when one is using 
ellipsis in quoting a sentence that originally contained ellipses - 
do we go to five dots, six dots, seven dots, more? :))


>A period is only ever a full stop.

Not always, e.g.    ;)


ER




From macloudt at yahoo.co.uk  Sat Mar  1 23:13:00 2003
From: macloudt at yahoo.co.uk (Mary Ann <macloudt@yahoo.co.uk>)
Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2003 23:13:00 -0000
Subject: Birthday Greetings!
Message-ID: <b3reps+lo37@eGroups.com>

:::::Dizzy Elf leaps into the room holding her knitting needles, 
hurridly finishing a maroon sweater with a big R on it:::::

How's that for a clue to today's birthday, eh?  Yes, today's birthday 
boy is Ron!  So, just for today, we're all going to speak nicely 
about Ron and join C.R.A.B.  Membership can be cancelled at midnight 
in your own time zone if desired. ;)

So who's bringing the sandwiches?

Mary Ann, who also wants to wish all our Welsh members a happy St. 
David's day :)




From ression at hotmail.com  Sun Mar  2 01:03:43 2003
From: ression at hotmail.com (ER <ression@hotmail.com>)
Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2003 01:03:43 -0000
Subject: Ellipsis 
In-Reply-To: <b3rdme+mssc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b3rl9f+al7v@eGroups.com>

It gets worse the more I think about it. Assuming an original of -

Hermione opened the door slowly and peered around its edge. The room 
was dark, but in the centre was a stone seat lit by a sickly green 
light. A pale figure was slumped across the seat. Wand draw, and with 
a pounding heart, Hermione moved cautiously forward.

How should we write an extract? Like this -

Hermione opened the door.... The room was dark .... Wand drawn ... 
Hermione moved cautiously forward.

Or how? I'm making my own rules up here. The first ellipsis (no space 
before) is to indicate that there are words missing from the first 
sentence and then it comes to an end. The next ellipsis (note the 
space) is to indicate that there are both missing words and one or 
more missing sentences. The final one (just three dots) seems OK, but 
what about those missing commas, especially the first?

And I have found an example of four dots in print. It's in 
Churchill's History of the English-speaking Peoples, which seems an 
appropriate place for it to be! It is written thus -

"There is a dignity, a majesty and sublimity in this last effort of 
the Patriots that I greatly admire. . . . This destruction of the tea 
is so bold, so daring, so firm, intrepid, and inflexible, and it must 
have so important consequences, and so lasting, that I cannot but 
consider it as an epoch in history."

(I cut it down a little). Note the spaces between the dots (if Yahoo 
hasn't mangled it) - that makes it look a lot better. Not sure if 
they're full spaces or half-spaces or whatever, but white space there 
is. However, I could read this as one full stop (ending the first 
sentence) and then a three-dot ellipsis telling me that other 
sentences have been omitted. Or I could read it as a single four-dot 
ellipsis telling me that the first sentence has been truncated. 
Tricky isn't it?

ER





From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Sun Mar  2 01:06:29 2003
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David <dfrankiswork@netscape.net>)
Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2003 01:06:29 -0000
Subject: Birthday Greetings! and Shibboleth
In-Reply-To: <b3reps+lo37@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b3rlel+g4a9@eGroups.com>

Mary Ann exhorted:

> So, just for today, we're all going to speak nicely 
> about Ron and join C.R.A.B.  

Or should that have been "So, just for today, we're all going to 
speak nicely about Ron and join C.R.A.B..", since the dot signifying 
that the "B" is an abbreviation is not a full stop?

Meanwhile, Barb insisted:

> There ARE rules of grammar and punctuation, even though some of 
them may not make sense to some folks.

Yes, but my question is, where do the rules come from?  I think the 
only sensible answer is that they come from us, the speakers and 
writers of English.  If they serve us well, then well and good.  If 
not, they have no mystical intrinsic force of their own to command 
our respect.

I think that an underlying issue in this thread is that language - 
whether spoken or written - serves two purposes, and we need to 
think what we are trying to achieve in formulating and applying 
rules.

The first purpose is communication, where most of the time we desire 
to be clear and not to arouse unnecessary antagonism in our 
audience.  A pedantic dislike of poor spelling or grammar is 
perfectly valid, though IMO we all save ourselves a deal of medical 
attention to our blood pressure if we can manage not to be too upset 
by it.  So to avoid arousing that dislike in others is a laudable, 
though perhaps not very inspiring, goal.  Likewise it's a harmless 
pleasure to enjoy getting complicated grammatical constructions 
right, if we don't insist that anyone who doesn't share that 
pleasure is educationally defective.

It's the second purpose whose abuse worries me.  This is when 
language is used as a tool of social recognition and exclusion.  The 
online gamers who confused Joywitch may not have *intended* their 
patois to discourage outsiders from joining in, but it had that 
effect in her case.  It's not only deviant writers who can do this: 
insisting on 'correct' usage, backed by all the force of social 
convention and economic power, can be both very oppressive and 
almost invisible.

If we write with poor grammar and spelling it causes our readers to 
have to make a greater effort to understand what we are 
communicating, so it's good to encourage people to do better in 
their own interest (think of Jenny's students).  That's rather 
different from judging people's character by their spelling and 
grammar, which I think there is a constant temptation to do.

None of this, of course, affects what the rules are or should be (if 
there is any 'should' in the matter), but it does profoundly affect 
the way we look at people and writings which don't comply with the 
rules.

David




From ression at hotmail.com  Sun Mar  2 01:07:45 2003
From: ression at hotmail.com (ER <ression@hotmail.com>)
Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2003 01:07:45 -0000
Subject: Birthday Greetings!
In-Reply-To: <b3reps+lo37@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b3rlh1+brnh@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Mary Ann <macloudt at y...>" 
<macloudt at y...> wrote:

> Mary Ann, who also wants to wish all our Welsh members a happy St. 
> David's day :)

Just a late-night thought - who wishes the Birthday Elf "Happy 
Birthday"? Is there a meta-Birthday Elf?

ER




From devika at sas.upenn.edu  Sun Mar  2 04:23:43 2003
From: devika at sas.upenn.edu (Devika <devika@sas.upenn.edu>)
Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2003 04:23:43 -0000
Subject: Letter to JKR
Message-ID: <b3s10f+ei9m@eGroups.com>

Hi everyone,

This is probably a silly question, but I can't get an answer if I 
don't ask, so here goes:

I found the link to the Letter Box project on The Leaky Cauldron, and 
I thought it was a great idea.  Basically, Ali Wildgoose (she's a 
member of HP4GU, isn't she?) is getting HP fans who are older than 
fourteen to write letters to JKR.  Ali will receive all of these 
letters, put them in a large box, and ship them to JKR.  I personally 
think this is a great way to show how many adults love HP just as 
much, or more than, the kids who read the books.  

Anyway, I intend to write a letter and send it myself, but I've run 
into a problem before I even begin.  How do I address the letter?  
I've never written a fan letter before, so I have no idea of how to 
begin it.  Should I say, "Dear Joanne?"  "Dear Ms. Rowling?"

Maybe I shouldn't be worrying about this so much, but I want to get 
it right :)  I'd appreciate any advice from any of you.

Devika, who can be rather obsessive at times <g>




From jrober4 at bellsouth.net  Sun Mar  2 06:49:41 2003
From: jrober4 at bellsouth.net (Judy Roberts <jrober4@bellsouth.net>)
Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2003 06:49:41 -0000
Subject: hi!
Message-ID: <b3s9i5+vg8t@eGroups.com>

My name is Judy, and I am new here.  I recently discovered Harry 
Potter when I finally got curious enough to watch "Sorcerer's Stone" 
on Cinemax two weeks ago.  Much to my surprise, I liked it *very 
much* and found it quite charming.  Next, I watched "SS" a couple 
more times while I was doing things on my computer.  I decided I 
wanted to read the "SS" book, and bought this and the "CoS" one 
Wednesday morning.  That night, I began reading "SS" and enjoyed it 
very much, finishing it Saturday afternoon (reading it at bedtime 
and at work when I didn't have customers to wait on -- I work in a 
movie theater).  I started reading "CoS" right away, and I am 
enjoying these books more and more!  Meanwhile, Friday evening, I 
bought PoA and GoF, so I now have all four books.  Considering **how 
much* I am liking these books, I will probably end up pre-ordering 
the new one, though I am saving every spare penny I can for my trip 
to Scotland in June, where my boyfriend is.  And, of course, I will 
rent the CoS movie when it comes out next month, as I haven't seen 
it yet and very much want to see how it parallels the book.  

I am *delighted* that there is a place for us Grown-up fans of Harry 
Potter to come.  I must confess that I am 49 years old, and am 
wondering if there are any other HP fans in my age group here?  
Thankfully, HP is quite popular among many of my co-workers (at the 
theater), which helps in my new-found enthusiasm for the series!  
For now, I am just on the HPFGU - Movie list, until I have read all 
four books, since I wouldn't understand yet many references being 
made on the main list.   

Oh, one more thing -- I don't know if this is the right place to 
ask, but does anyone sell adult-size HP t-shirts?  In the United 
States?  Online?  

Looking forward to any discussions on HP, first on the Movie list 
and then on the Main list!

Judy
Chapel Hill, North Carolina  USA




From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Sun Mar  2 07:07:01 2003
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd <jkusalavagemd@yahoo.com>)
Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2003 07:07:01 -0000
Subject: Ellipsis (was Mr. Rogers -- crayons -- grammar)
In-Reply-To: <b3qkgp+9vto@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b3sail+it0r@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "ER <ression at h...>" 
<ression at h...> wrote:
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "heiditandy" <heidit at n...> 
> 
> >Heidi, who didn't realise that there should be four dots in an 
> elipse at the end of a sentence until she started beta reading
> 
> I didn't know that! I always use three. And I put a space before 
> them. So too does JKR. Is this a UK v US thing? Four looks way too 
> many, though I couldn't say why three looks right :)) Does it get 
> changed in the American editions? Any qualified grammarians out 
there?
> 
> Is elipse the standard American spelling? I'd have used ellipsis or 
> ellipse.
> 
> ER

When I beta read and come across ellipsis at the end of a complete 
sentence, I leave a space between the period (full stop, for our U.K. 
friends) and the ellipsis,  e.g.,  "The quick brown fox jumped over 
the lazy dog. ..."

Whether this is given as a formal rule anywhere I do not know, but it 
clarifies matters for me.

Haggridd





From risako at nexusanime.com  Sun Mar  2 09:42:54 2003
From: risako at nexusanime.com (Melissa McCarthy)
Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 05:42:54 -0400
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Letter to JKR
References: <b3s10f+ei9m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <002401c2e0a0$1a6aef00$5ca794d1@vaio>

> I found the link to the Letter Box project on The Leaky Cauldron, and
> I thought it was a great idea.

Yeah! yeah!  Everyone go see! http://www.theletterbox.org/

> Anyway, I intend to write a letter and send it myself, but I've run
> into a problem before I even begin.  How do I address the letter?
> I've never written a fan letter before, so I have no idea of how to
> begin it.  Should I say, "Dear Joanne?"  "Dear Ms. Rowling?"

I started mine "Dear Ms. Rowling" because I figured I might as well err on
the side of courtesy.  It got much less coherent after that <g>  I don't
think it matters all that much, though, and "Dear Joanne" certainly wouldn't
be wrong!

> Devika, who can be rather obsessive at times <g>

Heehee... me too.  I wrote a 3/4-page letter (otherwise my fangirlish
ramblings would have become very boring), and I wrote five drafts of the
darn thing before I was satisfied with it!

Melissa, who is generally obsessive in a non-evil way (no, really!
completely non-evil!)






From zeff8 at attbi.com  Sun Mar  2 09:23:03 2003
From: zeff8 at attbi.com (Prof_chase)
Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 04:23:03 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] hi!
References: <b3s9i5+vg8t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000b01c2e09d$54e3d5a0$9c01f50c@mac>

Hi Judy, if you think the books are cool, check out the audio books. They
are great to listen to.  yes, there are plenty of Adult HP fans out there
too.
As for adult stuff, its out there, but limited in quanity and stuff. Most of
the HP stuff is geared towards the kids. I think only now, are they starting
to realize just how Popular HP is with us adults..
You can find tshirts on Ebay.
You can find adult size wizard robes at a number of places, including
www.thewandshop.com or use any search engine and look up witch or wizard
robes and there are many "wician" or other pagan websites that sell
robes/cloaks, etc.. for costumes..




For a voice and text chat, Join us at Hogwarts School on Paltalk, in the
Meet new friends group.
Join HP collectables, to discuss collecting various HP items.
Subscribe:  HPcollectables-subscribe at yahoogroups.com
Unsubscribe:  HPcollectables-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
List owner:  HPcollectables-owner at yahoogroups.com

----- Original Message -----
From: <jrober4 at bellsouth.net>
To: <HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2003 1:49 AM
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] hi!


> My name is Judy, and I am new here.  I recently discovered Harry
> Potter when I finally got curious enough to watch "Sorcerer's Stone"
> on Cinemax two weeks ago.  Much to my surprise, I liked it *very
> much* and found it quite charming.  Next, I watched "SS" a couple
> more times while I was doing things on my computer.  I decided I
> wanted to read the "SS" book, and bought this and the "CoS" one
> Wednesday morning.  That night, I began reading "SS" and enjoyed it
> very much, finishing it Saturday afternoon (reading it at bedtime
> and at work when I didn't have customers to wait on -- I work in a
> movie theater).  I started reading "CoS" right away, and I am
> enjoying these books more and more!  Meanwhile, Friday evening, I
> bought PoA and GoF, so I now have all four books.  Considering **how
> much* I am liking these books, I will probably end up pre-ordering
> the new one, though I am saving every spare penny I can for my trip
> to Scotland in June, where my boyfriend is.  And, of course, I will
> rent the CoS movie when it comes out next month, as I haven't seen
> it yet and very much want to see how it parallels the book.
>
> I am *delighted* that there is a place for us Grown-up fans of Harry
> Potter to come.  I must confess that I am 49 years old, and am
> wondering if there are any other HP fans in my age group here?
> Thankfully, HP is quite popular among many of my co-workers (at the
> theater), which helps in my new-found enthusiasm for the series!
> For now, I am just on the HPFGU - Movie list, until I have read all
> four books, since I wouldn't understand yet many references being
> made on the main list.
>
> Oh, one more thing -- I don't know if this is the right place to
> ask, but does anyone sell adult-size HP t-shirts?  In the United
> States?  Online?
>
> Looking forward to any discussions on HP, first on the Movie list
> and then on the Main list!
>
> Judy
> Chapel Hill, North Carolina  USA
>
>
>
> ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________
>
> Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the group's Admin Files!
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/
>
> Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material
from posts to which you're replying!
>
> Is your message...
> An announcement of merchandise, news etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements.
> Movie-related? Send it to HPFGU-Movie.
> Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups.
> None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter.
> Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods --
MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com
>
> Unsubscribing? Email HPFGU-OTChatter-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
> ____________________________________________________________
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>




From heidit at netbox.com  Sun Mar  2 11:41:28 2003
From: heidit at netbox.com (heiditandy)
Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 06:41:28 -0500
Subject: Welcoming newbie + merchandise
In-Reply-To: <b3s9i5+vg8t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <017701c2e0b0$aa29fea0$9865fea9@Frodo>


> Oh, one more thing -- I don't know if this is the right place to 
> ask, but does anyone sell adult-size HP t-shirts?  In the United 
> States?  Online?  


Welcome, Judy! Yes, you will find other 40-plus listies here. I think
the last time I checked we ranged in age up to pushng 70...

In terms of merchandise in adult sizes, you can find *some* tshirts at
the WBShop itself - they only have a dozen styles in the first place,
but two of them are nicely done adult tops -
http://www.wbshop.com/catalog/category.xml?category_id=2688;pcid1=2677;p
cid2=2682 is the right page to use. And take a peek at Teri Goldberg's
Steals & Deals page on MSNBC - she always has great HP sales in the
column - http://www.msnbc.com/news/828467.asp.


Heidi Tandy
Team Nimbus - 2003
http://www.hp2003.org




From HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com  Sun Mar  2 16:02:21 2003
From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com (HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 2 Mar 2003 16:02:21 -0000
Subject: Reminder - Weekly Chat 
Message-ID: <1046620941.24.25316.m14@yahoogroups.com>


We would like to remind you of this upcoming event.

Weekly Chat 

Date: Sunday, March 2, 2003 
Time: 11:00AM - 7:00PM CST (GMT-06:00) 

Hi everyone! Don't forget, chat happens today, 11 am Pacific, 2
pm Eastern, 7 pm UK time. Go into any Yahoo chat room and type
/join HP:1 
For further info, see the Humongous BigFile, section 3.3.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/hbfile.html#33

Hope to see you there! 

 





From lupinesque at yahoo.com  Sun Mar  2 16:48:30 2003
From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z <lupinesque@yahoo.com>)
Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2003 16:48:30 -0000
Subject: Ellipsis 
In-Reply-To: <b3sail+it0r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b3tcku+on7t@eGroups.com>

Haggridd wrote:

> When I beta read and come across ellipsis at the end of a complete 
> sentence, I leave a space between the period (full stop, for our 
U.K. 
> friends) and the ellipsis,  e.g.,  "The quick brown fox jumped over 
> the lazy dog. ..."
> 
> Whether this is given as a formal rule anywhere I do not know, but 
it 
> clarifies matters for me.

The way I learned it was that *when quoting* and omitting only part 
of a sentence, one uses three dots (does one call them periods if 
they aren't being used as periods/full stops?), and *when quoting* 
and omitting an entire sentence, one uses four dots.  It is never 
correct in American usage to leave the dots unspaced, though as a 
lazy typist, I go back and forth.  The only time one does not put a 
space on either side of each one of the dots is when the first dot 
also acts as a full stop, so that it follows right upon the word that 
precedes it.  It's been a long time since middle-school grammar, 
though.

Thus one would ellipsisize <g> the above paragraph like this:

"The way I learned it was that . . . one uses three dots . . . "

or 

"The way I learned it was that *when quoting* and omitting only part 
of a sentence, one uses three dots (does one call them periods if 
they aren't being used as periods/full stops?), and *when quoting* 
and omitting an entire sentence, one uses four dots. . . . It's been 
a long time since middle-school grammar, though."

That's for quoting, where there are rules designed to be as clear as 
possible about what has been omitted.  When one is simply using an 
ellipsis to indicate a pause, I think one always uses three dots.  I 
suppose it might follow that if one wants to imply that an entire 
sentence was considered and left unspoken, one would use four . . . .

<g>

Aside:  Judy Blume always drove me nuts because she used so many 
ellipses.

Amy Z





From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Sun Mar  2 20:51:42 2003
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David <dfrankiswork@netscape.net>)
Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2003 20:51:42 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore's age
Message-ID: <b3tqsu+inaf@eGroups.com>

Today's Sunday Express has an interview with Robbie Coltrane, in 
which he states (in the context that she has an extensive backstory 
for all the characters) that JKR knows what Dumbledore was doing in 
the 1700s.

There are a number of minor errors in the article (Hagrid finds 
romance with 'Madam Maxine' in the third film, according to the 
author, despite Coltrane clearly stating a paragraph later it's in 
the fourth film/book) and as far as Coltrane's concerned it's a 
throwaway comment so it's probably nothing, but if true it adds 50+ 
years to the age we normally assume for Dumbledore.

The headline was the fear that Hagrid may be killed off in OOP, 
because 'it has been revealed' that a 'central character' is to be 
killed.  The story about Coltrane only being contracted for four 
movies was recycled, too.

David




From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Mar  2 20:59:36 2003
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston) <catlady@wicca.net>)
Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2003 20:59:36 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore's age
In-Reply-To: <b3tqsu+inaf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b3trbo+5mcu@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "David <dfrankiswork at n...>" 
<dfrankiswork at n...> wrote:
> Today's Sunday Express has an interview with Robbie Coltrane, in 
> which he states (in the context that she has an extensive backstory 
> for all the characters) that JKR knows what Dumbledore was doing in 
> the 1700s.

Rowling SAID in an interview that Dumbledore is 150 ... she said it 
in two different interviews ... which would make him born in 1840-ish 
and not having been doing ANYTHING in the 1700s... Is that more JKR 
innumeracy?

Dumbledore's about 150 years old... wizards have a longer life 
expectancy than us Muggles, Snape's 35 or 6. 
60% Sun, 22 Dec 2002 01:23:38 GMT 
http://www.comicrelief.com/harrysbooks/pages/...  

Dumbledore is a hundred and fifty, and Professor McGonagall is a 
sprightly seventy. Wizards have a much longer life expectancy than 
Muggles. 
50% Sun, 22 Dec 2002 01:27:32 GMT 
http://www.scholastic.com/harrypotter/author/transcript2. 

Thank you, Goatpad!

> 
> The story about Coltrane only being contracted for four 
> movies was recycled, too.

I thought it was FIVE movies. I don't know if the idea of turning 
GoF into *two* movies had been discussed already at the time the 
actors were hired for the first movie.




From amy at pressroom.com  Sun Mar  2 23:40:33 2003
From: amy at pressroom.com (Amy Gourley)
Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 18:40:33 -0500
Subject: What is JKR's religious beliefs?
References: <b3nbas+punn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <016c01c2e115$1e7bfc40$b17ba8c0@amy>

I just thought of this and I realized I didn't know. I was chatting with
someone online who is 17 and their parents won't let them read HP but she
reads Lord of the Rings, Narnia etc. She said her parents said she could
read them because Tolkein and Lewis are Christians. Isn't JKR one too? I
don't want to start a debate but I just never remember hearing about if she
practices anything.

Amy





From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Mar  2 23:54:58 2003
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston) <catlady@wicca.net>)
Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2003 23:54:58 -0000
Subject: What is JKR's religious beliefs?
In-Reply-To: <016c01c2e115$1e7bfc40$b17ba8c0@amy>
Message-ID: <b3u5ki+so3d@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Amy Gourley" <amy at p...> 
wrote:
> I just thought of this and I realized I didn't know. I was chatting
> with someone online who is 17 and their parents won't let them read
> HP but she reads Lord of the Rings, Narnia etc. She said her
> parents said she could read them because Tolkein and Lewis are
> Christians. Isn't JKR one too? I don't want to start a debate but
> I just never remember hearing about if she practices anything.

You mess around at the Goat Pad and find a bunch of interviews where 
she says so, altho' NOT the jnterview where she told a Canadian paper 
that she doesn't talk much about her religious faith because then 
anyone who knew anything about Christianity could figure out how the 
series is coming to end. http://www.geocities.com/aberforths_goat/




From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Sun Mar  2 23:58:46 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve <bboy_mn@yahoo.com>)
Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2003 23:58:46 -0000
Subject: What is JKR's religious beliefs?
In-Reply-To: <016c01c2e115$1e7bfc40$b17ba8c0@amy>
Message-ID: <b3u5rm+a06v@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Amy Gourley" <amy at p...> wrote:
> ... I was chatting with someone ... their parents won't let them
> read  HP. ... her parents said she could read... Tolkein and Lewis 
> (as they) are Christians. 
>
>Isn't JKR one too? 
> 
> Amy

bboy_mn:

Of course she is, what else would she be? Hindu? Buddhist? Shinto?

She grew up in England and Wales, plus lived in Scotland. Their
country has a national religion; Church of England. 

What rational person would doubt that she was a Christian?

This is more of that 'devil worship' crap that people who have
absolutely NO knowledge of the books are making up. It's completely
unfounded. The Church of England, the Archbishop of Canterbury, and
representatives of ever major Christian religion have endorsed JKR's
books. It is only the fringe fundamentalist that are more interested
in hearing their own voice and getting their name in the paper than
they are in truth who are spreading these rediculous rumors.

Nuf said.

bboy_mn




From silveroak_us at yahoo.com  Mon Mar  3 00:05:37 2003
From: silveroak_us at yahoo.com (silveroak_us <silveroak_us@yahoo.com>)
Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 00:05:37 -0000
Subject: What is JKR's religious beliefs?
In-Reply-To: <b3u5ki+so3d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b3u68h+a0dg@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita 
Prince Winston) <catlady at w...>" <catlady at w...> wrote:
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Amy Gourley" <
amy at p...> 
> wrote:
> > I just thought of this and I realized I didn't know. I was 
chatting
> > with someone online who is 17 and their parents won't let 
them read
> > HP but she reads Lord of the Rings, Narnia etc. She said her
> > parents said she could read them because Tolkein and 
Lewis are
> > Christians. Isn't JKR one too? I don't want to start a debate 
but
> > I just never remember hearing about if she practices 
anything.
> 
> You mess around at the Goat Pad and find a bunch of 
interviews where 
> she says so, altho' NOT the jnterview where she told a 
Canadian paper 
> that she doesn't talk much about her religious faith because 
then 
> anyone who knew anything about Christianity could figure out 
how the 
> series is coming to end. http://www.geocities.com/
aberforths_goat/


Now me:
In several interviews, JKR has stated that she is active in the 
Church of Scotland and that her daughter was christened in the 
Church. You can search at Aberforth's Goat on the word "church" 
and find the interviews in their entirety.
She is as Christian as it comes.

**  Martin Miggs, the Mad Muggle **




From siskiou at earthlink.net  Mon Mar  3 00:17:50 2003
From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne)
Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 16:17:50 -0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: What is JKR's religious beliefs?
In-Reply-To: <b3u5rm+a06v@eGroups.com>
References: <b3u5rm+a06v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <75171296110.20030302161750@earthlink.net>



Hi,

Sunday, March 02, 2003, 3:58:46 PM, bboy_mn at yahoo.com wrote:

> Of course she is, what else would she be? Hindu? Buddhist? Shinto?

> She grew up in England and Wales, plus lived in Scotland. Their
> country has a national religion; Church of England. 

> What rational person would doubt that she was a Christian?

Well, there is a *possibility* that people living in these
areas could have a different faith or not subscribe to any
of them, and I consider myself a rational person ;)

While Christianity is certainly a good guess, it isn't
automatically right.

I do think I've seen it mentioned that JKR is a Christian,
though.

-- 
Best regards,
 Susanne                           mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net




From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com  Mon Mar  3 00:54:55 2003
From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent <psychic_serpent@yahoo.com>)
Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 00:54:55 -0000
Subject: Dumbledore's age
In-Reply-To: <b3trbo+5mcu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b3u94v+4j30@eGroups.com>

> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "David <dfrankiswork at n...> 
wrote:
> > Today's Sunday Express has an interview with Robbie Coltrane, in 
> > which he states (in the context that she has an extensive 
> > backstory for all the characters) that JKR knows what Dumbledore 
> > was doing in the 1700s.

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince 
Winston) <catlady at w...>" <catlady at w...> wrote: 
> Rowling SAID in an interview that Dumbledore is 150 ... she said 
> it in two different interviews ... which would make him born in 
> 1840-ish and not having been doing ANYTHING in the 1700s... Is 
> that more JKR innumeracy?
 
Could be, but that would be REALLY off, even for her.  Although I 
wouldn't trust JKR to balance her own checkbook (hey, she probably 
has a slew of accountants now to handle that) I doubt she would make 
that big a mistake about Dumbledore.  It could be that Coltrane 
misheard her; she may have said "eighteen-hundreds" to him (during 
which Albus Dumbledore would have been alive for about sixty years) 
but he may have HEARD "eighteenth century," which would be the 
seventeen-hundreds.  Loads of people get mixed up about this.  Or it 
could have been the other way around--SHE could have 
SAID "eighteenth century" in reference to this when she meant to 
have "eighteen-hundreds" come out of her mouth, and Coltrane 
probably didn't know about the interview in which she gave 
Dumbledore's age.  Either way, I think this can probably be chalked 
up to a slip of the tongue or a simple miscommunication.

--Barb

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent
http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb





From catlady at wicca.net  Mon Mar  3 01:00:00 2003
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston) <catlady@wicca.net>)
Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 01:00:00 -0000
Subject: What is JKR's religious beliefs?
In-Reply-To: <b3u5rm+a06v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b3u9eg+sr2j@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Steve <bboy_mn at y...>" wrote:
> 
> Of course she is, what else would she be? Hindu? Buddhist? Shinto?
> She grew up in England and Wales, plus lived in Scotland. Their
> country has a national religion; Church of England. 

JKR belongs to the Church of Scotland, as silveroak said. But she 
*could* be a Wiccan or a Theosophist or a Spiritualist, all religions 
that were invented in UK. She *could* be a Scientologist or a Mormon, 
religions which proselytize in UK. She *could* be an atheist. It 
amuses me that you used Hinduism and Buddhism as unlikely examples, 
since both those religions are practised in UK as well as in USA. I 
don't know if Parvati Patil and Padma Patil practise Hinduism, but I 
suspect their parents raised them to, and I don't know if Cho Chang 
practises Buddhism, but her parents probably do (more exactly some 
mixture of Buddhism, Taoism, and Confucianism, because *I* think 
they're from Hong Kong).




From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Mon Mar  3 02:06:34 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve <bboy_mn@yahoo.com>)
Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 02:06:34 -0000
Subject: What is JKR's religious beliefs?
In-Reply-To: <75171296110.20030302161750@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <b3udba+q4ip@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Susanne <siskiou at e...> wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Sunday, March 02, 2003, 3:58:46 PM, bboy_mn at y... wrote:
> 
> > Of course she is, what else would she be? Hindu? Buddhist? Shinto?
> 
> > What rational person would doubt that she was a Christian?


Susanne:
> 
> Well, there is a *possibility* that people living in these
> areas could have a different faith or not subscribe to any
> of them, and I consider myself a rational person ;)
> 
> While Christianity is certainly a good guess, it isn't
> automatically right.
> 
> I do think I've seen it mentioned that JKR is a Christian,
> though.
> 
> -- 
> Best regards,
>  Susanne  

bboy_mn:

While Britian is certainly a diverse society and incorporates all
religious faiths, I think it is safe to say that someone named Patil
or Ghandi would be Hindu, and someone named Hishimoto would be Shinto.
If I meet a person of Thai ancestry who is a native born Brit, I think
it's still safe to assume they are Buddhist. While this is not
absolute, it's a pretty fair indicator. Equally fair is the assumption
that someone born in Britian and named Rowling is Christian. 

That combined with her own statements of the fact.

People who assume she IS are making a fair assumption, people who
assume she is not are making an irrational assumption that does
nothing other than promote their own prejudice and further their own
self-serving personal agendas.

Nuf said.

bboy_mn





From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk  Mon Mar  3 02:21:39 2003
From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte)
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 02:21:39 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: What is JKR's religious beliefs?
References: <b3udba+q4ip@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3E62BC33.000001.14539@monica>

 

bboy_mn:
 
While Britian is certainly a diverse society and incorporates all
religious faiths, I think it is safe to say that someone named Patil
or Ghandi would be Hindu, and someone named Hishimoto would be Shinto.
If I meet a person of Thai ancestry who is a native born Brit, I think
it's still safe to assume they are Buddhist. While this is not
absolute, it's a pretty fair indicator. Equally fair is the assumption
that someone born in Britian and named Rowling is Christian. 
 
That combined with her own statements of the fact.
 
People who assume she IS are making a fair assumption, people who
assume she is not are making an irrational assumption that does
nothing other than promote their own prejudice and further their own
self-serving personal agendas.
 
Nuf said.
 
bboy_mn
 
 
 You seem to be working off the assumption that everyone who assumes she isn
t Christian is assuming that she's some kind of satanist (and I would point
out at this stage, not because I think anyone here believes this, but
because it seems to be a common assumption that satanist and pagan are
synonyms, that Satan is a Christian concept and in order to be a satanist
you'd actually have to believe in some kind of judeo-christian God). umm,
yeah got distracted sorry, but it bugs me that most people who talk about
satanists seem to think they don't believe in the existance of God.

Anyway the point I was making was that while it would be reasonable to
assume that she was baptized into Church of England/Scotland, without
reading her interviews, it would also be perfectly reasonable to assume that
she has *no* real faith of any kind. I'm a pretty average, middle-class
english person and looking at my family and friends the only ones I know
(with one exception, my exception, and I have a *large* and varied group of
friends and family) that have any particular religious beliefs that they
follow are either Muslim or Sikh. The majority of my group were christened
in a church but practice no religion and enter a church only for the
required appearances at christenings, marriages and funerals.

Being christened in a certain faith surely doesn't really make you a member
of that faith if you don't believe in it or follow it's teachings except
coincidentally where they happen to intersect with your own moral code (by
that I mean I don't steal/kill etc but I don't refrain because it's in the
ten commandments, i refrain because it's wrong)

and to drag this back to the original post - if the person the original
poster (sorry lost track of who it was) was talking about isn't allowed to
read harry potter for religious reasons then you might mention that the
Archbishop of Canterbury said in an interview that he liked the Harry Potter
books because they told of a struggle between good and evil. So if that isn
t an endorsement I don't know what is.

Hmm reading that back I might be skirting very closely some of the rules
about controversial topics but I don't mean any offense and i was just
trying to illustrate that it's perfectly possible for a 'rational person'
with no agenda at all to wonder if JK Rowling was a Christian.
Also I think I corrected most of the typos in that but I'm very very tired
so I apologise to all our 'spelling nazis' (of whom I count myself one) in
advance for the hideous number of errors that are no doubt still there.

K



From pennylin at swbell.net  Mon Mar  3 03:24:23 2003
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny Linsenmayer <pennylin@swbell.net>)
Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 03:24:23 -0000
Subject: What is JKR's religious beliefs?
In-Reply-To: <3E62BC33.000001.14539@monica>
Message-ID: <b3uht7+7km9@eGroups.com>

Hi all --

Heidi kindly pointed out this thread to me, since I don't often get
over to OTC.  :::waves at Heidi::::

Well.  First, maybe a few clarifications:

1.  As best I know, there is only one interview wherein JKR mentions
attending the Church of Scotland.  It doesn't say that she is a
*faithful* attendee in the Church of Scotland........but one gets the
impression that she is perhaps more regular than just christenings,
weddings, funerals and Easter Sunday.  

2.  As best I know, there is also only one interview in which she
professes that she believes in God.  

3.  Catlady: if JKR told a Canadian paper that she doesn't discuss
religion much *because* those familiar with Christian doctrine could
figure out how the series ends, I'd sure loovvvvvvvvvve to read that.
 Can you provide a link?

In general, she has been reticent about discussing her religious
beliefs.  I've recently read four works written by Christians
defending the HP series (The Hidden Key to HP by John Granger; A
Charmed Life: the Spirituality of Potterword by the Reverend Francis
Bridger; God, the Devil and Harry Potter by John Killinger; and both
works by Connie Neal (What's a Christian to do with HP? and The Gospel
According to HP).  I've got a fairly longish book review going on all
4 books .... have been trying to get my notes from Bridger worked in
so it can be posted. 

To the original poster who asked about her religious beliefs because
they knew a teenage girl who couldn't read HP but could read Lewis and
Tolkien because those authors are Christian: her parents need to read
the above books.  Connie Neal addresses that particular issue head-on
in her first book.  Here's what she says: "If violence, occult terms &
`good witchcraft' are complaints against Harry Potter, does it make
sense to sanctify the same elements in books authored by [people known
to be] Christians?"  She urges Christians to not use faulty logic: if
you condemn "occultic terms" and the fantasy setting of HP, you *must*
do so with Tolkien and Lewis as well.  

Granger takes the position that Rowling is writing explicitly
Christian novels in the tradition of Tolkien and Lewis.  Killinger
doesn't go quite this far in his analysis, though he does argue that
the books can be viewed as a modern interpretation of the Gospel and
that the foundation and plot of the HP books are premised on the
Judeo-Christian heritage.  I found all of these books to be a great
read, and they all had distinctive ways of looking at the series from
a Christian perspective (it's truly not just the same material hashed
out over & over again.......these authors do all bring a fresh
perspective to the subject).  Though if I had to choose only one of
them to give to this girl's parents, I suppose I'd opt for Killinger.    

Turning to bboy's comments:
    
> bboy_mn:
>  
> While Britian is certainly a diverse society and incorporates all
> religious faiths, I think it is safe to say that someone named Patil
> or Ghandi would be Hindu, and someone named Hishimoto would be Shinto.
> If I meet a person of Thai ancestry who is a native born Brit, I think
> it's still safe to assume they are Buddhist. While this is not
> absolute, it's a pretty fair indicator. Equally fair is the assumption
> that someone born in Britian and named Rowling is Christian. 
>  
> That combined with her own statements of the fact.

I would say that is safe *assumption* only *if* combined with her
statements regarding the matter.  We had a fair few discussions on the
overall topic of religion in the UK many moons ago, and it seems that
Britain is overall a far more secular than Christian country these
days.  Yes, it's more likely that she would be Christian than
Buddhist, Moslem or Hindu (though because there are so many British
citizens who practice those faiths, one can't rule out that many Brits
of Anglo background might have taken up those faiths).  But, it's just
as likely that she's not particularly religious as that she's
Christian -- if all you're looking at is her surname and the country
of her birth.  

She may well have been baptized in the Anglican Church, but that
doesn't make her a Christian.  She may well have attended the Anglican
Church or the Church of Wales or one of the non-conformist churches in
her youth, but that doesn't make her a Christian.  Even sporadic or
semi-regular attendance in the Church of Scotland as an adult doesn't
necessarily make her a Christian.  As a Christian myself, I would say
that my faith requires active and ongoing affirmance and actions.  

I suspect that she is Christian, but my reasons aren't because her
last name is Rowling and she grew up in England.  Her admission that
she attends the Church of Scotland and her unrelated comment that she
believes in God are pretty good evidence.  Even better is her
interview comment that her favorite painting is Caravaggio's Supper at
Emmaus.  Adding to the mix are her favorable comments about C.S.
Lewis' Narnia series, itself an explicit Christian allegory. 
Certainly most of these Christian commentators I've discussed above
believe that she is Christian and that this shows through in her work.
 I'd agree with that assessment in general.    

Penny




From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com  Mon Mar  3 05:38:54 2003
From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent <psychic_serpent@yahoo.com>)
Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 05:38:54 -0000
Subject: What is JKR's religious beliefs?
In-Reply-To: <b3uht7+7km9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b3uppe+n6mc@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Penny Linsenmayer 
<pennylin at s...>" <pennylin at s...> wrote:
> I suspect that she is Christian, but my reasons aren't because her
> last name is Rowling and she grew up in England.  Her admission 
> that she attends the Church of Scotland and her unrelated comment 
> that she believes in God are pretty good evidence.  Even better is 
> her interview comment that her favorite painting is Caravaggio's 
> Supper at Emmaus.  Adding to the mix are her favorable comments 
> about C.S. Lewis' Narnia series, itself an explicit Christian 
> allegory. Certainly most of these Christian commentators I've 
> discussed above believe that she is Christian and that this shows 
> through in her work.
>  I'd agree with that assessment in general.    
 
If she attends the Church of Scotland, known as "The Kirk," then she 
is a Presbyterian, rather than an Anglican.  There is an interesting 
article on The Kirk's website about religious observance:

http://www.churchofscotland.org.uk/news/observance002.htm

Many people may not know that Mr. Rogers was also an ordained 
Presbyterian minister, and a member of the second More Light 
(officially gay-friendly) congregation in Pennsylvania (my own 
congregation was the first, and we sent a letter to the Pittsburgh 
church congratulating them when they passed their statement).  
Admittedly, our left-leaning congregations are the exception and not 
the rule in the denomination, but we can dream... 

Historically, the democracy inherent in the governance of the Kirk 
(elders or presbyters elected by the congregations leading the Kirk) 
is credited with leading to the Scottish Enlightenment and to many 
other political developments in the Old and New Worlds.  This seems 
quite in line with JKR's characterization of Hermione, with her 
fight for elf rights.  JKR also seems to be using another old 
Scottish practice, that of the Lord Advocate (one person who is 
judge and prosecutor) as the inspiration for her wizarding justice 
system (the LA ceased to be Scottish law in the early 18th century, 
but we know how slow wizards are to change).

Another major religious institution that is not against the HP books 
is the Vatican.  A friend sent me an article about this months ago, 
but I deleted the mail after I read it.  All I had to do in Google 
was enter "Rowling Potter Vatican" in order to come up with a slew 
of references to this support.  Here's just one of the articles:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/02/07/entertainment/main539753.sh
tml

I agree with you, Penny, that if someone is preventing a child from 
reading the HP for religious reasons, they should look at those 
books you recommended.  (I know a large number of clergy who are HP 
fans.)  One doesn't even need to dig far below the surface to find 
significant evidence for JKR's religious beliefs in the HP books.  I 
think, however, that even folks who are not religious can enjoy them 
without feeling, a la Lewis, that they are being beaten over the 
head with a catechism.

And the fact that JKR likes Caravaggio just shows that she has a) 
good taste, and b) a taste for the dramatic.  (But then we all knew 
that. <g>)

--Barb

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent
http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb






From the.gremlin at verizon.net  Mon Mar  3 05:48:04 2003
From: the.gremlin at verizon.net (the.gremlin at verizon.net)
Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 23:48:04 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: What is JKR's religious beliefs?
Message-ID: <20030303054805.GRJ5518.out001.verizon.net@[127.0.0.1]>

In light of the recent grammar thread, I just thought I could point out the fact that the verb-subject agreement for the title of this thread is wrong. It should read: "What are JKR's religious beliefs" or "What is JKR's religious belief."

Sorry, couldn't help myself. I just noticed it. :D
If this has already been pointed out, then I'm sorry, I'm just a bored college student who has finished all her homework and there's nothing on TV.

-Acire
http://www.underground-newslet.html
The Underground--Fixing your addiction for writing.

"So sorry-dozed off-what have I missed?"
Prof. Lockhart, Chamber of Secrets



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Mon Mar  3 05:53:17 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve <bboy_mn@yahoo.com>)
Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 05:53:17 -0000
Subject: What is JKR's religious beliefs?
In-Reply-To: <3E62BC33.000001.14539@monica>
Message-ID: <b3uqkd+jhgd@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Kathryn Cawte" <kcawte at b...>
wrote:

bboy_mn Preface:

Indeed we are in dangerous territory when we talk about religion even
in an off-topic group. I do not want this to decend into us all
ranting and raving about religion in general, and I'm sure every one
feels the same. So, I will truly try to restain myself.
-end this part-

>  
> 
> bboy_mn originally said:
>  
> Equally fair is the assumption that someone born in Britian and 
> named Rowling is Christian. 
>  
> That combined with her own statements of the fact.
>  
> People who assume she IS are making a fair assumption, people who
> assume she is not are making an irrational assumption ...
>  
> Nuf said.
>  
> bboy_mn



> Kathryn:  
>  
> You seem to be working off the assumption that everyone who assumes 
> she isn't Christian is assuming that she's some kind of satanist ...
> -end this part-

bboy_mn now says:
If the assumption that she is not a Christian is an attempt to
discredit her in any way then yes, I think they are assuming that she
is a satanist, which I wholly and fully acknowledge is completely
different than a pagan. 

If someone assumed she was a buddhist or even an athiest, I would bear
no ill will, but I am specifically talking about people who are
accusing her of not being a Christian in an attempt to imply that she
is ANTI-Christian, and is actively and even covertly through her books
promoting that anti-Christian belief. (Perhaps counter-Christian would
be better than anti-christian)
-bboy_mn-end this part-



> Kathryn: 
> 
> Anyway the point I was making was that while it would be reasonable 
> to assume that she was baptized into Church of England/Scotland, 
> without reading her interviews, it would also be perfectly 
> reasonable to assume that she has *no* real faith of any kind. 
> ..edited...

bboy_mn:
I will almost agree with you. It is reasonable to assume that it is
POSSIBLE that she has no real faith or an alternate faith, but it is
not reasonable to assume it is LIKELY.
-end this part-


> Kathryn: 
> The majority of my group were christened in a church but practice 
> no religion and enter a church only for the required appearances at 
> christenings, marriages and funerals.
> 
> Being christened in a certain faith surely doesn't really make you 
> a member of that faith if you don't believe in it or follow it's 
> teachings ...edited...
> -end this part-

bboy_mn again in dangerous territory:
The measure of a person's faith in not in how often they go into that
big building on the corner with the tall steeple, or whether they list
themselves under the name of a specific organization (Baptist,
Lutheran, Methodist, Catholic, etc...), it is in a deep personal
belief in a higher moral power and a genuine attempt to adhere to the
moral code reflected in that moral power.
-end this part-

> Kathryn: 
> 
> ... back to the original post -  the person the original
> poster ... was talking about isn't allowed to read harry potter for
> religious reasons then you might mention that the Archbishop of 
> Canterbury said in an interview that he liked the Harry Potter
> books  ...
> -end this part-

bboy_mn:
Which is exactly why I said -

" The Church of England, the Archbishop of Canterbury, and
representatives of ever major Christian religion have endorsed 
JKR's books."
-end this part-


> Kathryn: 
> ... i was just trying to illustrate that it's perfectly possible 
> for a 'rational person' with no agenda at all to wonder if JK 
> Rowling was a Christian.
> ...edited...
> 
> K

bboy_mn:
In general, I did understand what the point you were trying to make,
but there is a big difference between someone who might assume she is
a Buddhist (or whatever), and those who have jumped to the conclusion
that she is Anti-Christian. The implication is that if you are not for
US then you are automatically against us; relative to Christianity and
relative to their personal opinions that are independant of the facts.

When most other religions in the world are ask about the religious
diversity found on this earth, their response is simply, 'Different
roads to the same destination'. Christians, especially fundamentalist
or more properly, obsessively fundamentalist Christians are incline to
say, 'It's our way or no way'.

If I had found out that JKR was a Buddhist or even a Moslem, I would
have been incline to hold her in higher regard rather than less
because she would have look for and found the road to the common
destination that suited her best rather than blindly following the
sheep. That certainly would deserve admiration. 

But whether she is indifferent to religion as sadly most people are,
or whether she follows a non-standard faith (reads - not Christian),
or whether she choses her own personal path, I will not stand by idly
while irrational uninformed people accuse her of being against
Christianity because she wrote a fairytale the included witches,
wizards, and magic.

I do not rile against those people who would speculate on the possible
diversity of her belief sytem, but against those with self-serving
agendas who would attempt to discredit her, when they so obviously
don't know what they are talking about.

I have the utmost respect of all positive moral belief systems and am
a firm believer in 'different roads to the same destination'. Sadly
those who would accuse JKR are not so enlightened.

In summary, I was not speaking against general speculation, which we
are all free to do, but against ridiculously, irrational, and
uninformed speculation about JKR. Any venom you may have detected was
directed at those people and certainly not at you.

Hope I haven't made things worse.

bboy_mn







From rvotaw at i-55.com  Mon Mar  3 15:13:02 2003
From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw)
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 09:13:02 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] My own education rant ( Re: Reading, Writing, and Multiple Choice)
References: <b3mpfe+tqut@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <008e01c2e197$632585f0$079dcdd1@RVotaw>


bboy_mn:

> GulPlum took the words right out of my mouth. Reading this restores my
> faith in the US educational system, and of all places Louisiana. 
> 
> Sorry about the Louisiana remark, but Louisiana doesn't carry the
> stereotype of being the most sophisticated place in the US. Generally,
> and again with apologies, the stereotype of someone from Louisiana is
> an uneducated swamp dwelling moonshine making cousin marrying... ah...

Actually, that's only in Livingston Parish. :)  Seriously.  Well, except that there aren't actual swamps there.

> However, what you said makes it sound, more accurately I'm sure, like
> a very progressive state with an equally progressive, productive, and
>  effective educational system. You must have some very cooperative
> politicians in your state. 

Now that you mention it, let me jump on my government rant.  First of all, Louisiana has been for years at the bottom of the scores in testing nationwide.  (Which, might I add, uniquely corresponds to Louisiana being at the bottom in teacher pay as well.  How interesting.) Anyway, a few years ago the state politicians decided to do something about it, and developed this system in which schools are graded based on their test scores, with the largest part of the score coming from the 4th and 8th grade LEAP tests (the written response ones) and a smaller portion coming from 3rd through 7th grade IOWA test (multiple choice) and a still smaller portion coming from student and teacher attendance.  This was supposed to remain as it is for a ten year period, but they've already decided to change the test used in 3rd through 7th grade in a year or so.  But here is the problem I have with this system.  All schools are judged on the same criteria.  Let me take just my school system as an example.  The local university has a Lab school.  The students primarily consist of children of professors at the university.  They are, not surprisingly, education oriented.  Now take, for example, the school I teach at. (Which, mind you, I drive 30 minutes to get to so I don't have to live in the area.) 95% of the parents of students live on welfare.  Most do not have even a high school education, 8th grade is the average education for a parent of one of my students.  Most are in single parent families.  I give homework in first grade that their parents don't know how to do.  I was showing one of the parents a test their student failed and explaining how they did not use is/are and was/were correctly on the page.  The parent was fascinated to learn that there was a rule for using is/are and was/were.  She had me repeat it three times and was writing it down so she would remember.  I saw a quote last week that pretty much summed it up.  "Children become readers in the laps of their parents."  I would estimate that no less than half of my own students have never had a parent read to them.  Most of them have no books at home, the closest thing to reading material would be the TV Guide.  Yet the government is perfectly content to continue supporting these people without doing anything to help them better their lives and become more productive citizens and better parents.  While still comparing the scores of my students, whose parents have an 8th grade education to those in the lab school, whose parents have PHD's.  Until the parents put forth some interest in the education of these children, the teachers simply cannot work magic for the scores to grow like the government wants them to.

Okay, enough ranting for one day.

Richelle


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Mon Mar  3 15:23:16 2003
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David <dfrankiswork@netscape.net>)
Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 15:23:16 -0000
Subject: JKR's influences (was What is JKR's religious beliefs?)
In-Reply-To: <b3uppe+n6mc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b3vs14+l2tg@eGroups.com>

Barb wrote:

> Historically, the democracy inherent in the governance of the Kirk 
> (elders or presbyters elected by the congregations leading the 
Kirk) 
> is credited with leading to the Scottish Enlightenment and to many 
> other political developments in the Old and New Worlds.  This 
seems 
> quite in line with JKR's characterization of Hermione, with her 
> fight for elf rights.  JKR also seems to be using another old 
> Scottish practice, that of the Lord Advocate (one person who is 
> judge and prosecutor) as the inspiration for her wizarding justice 
> system (the LA ceased to be Scottish law in the early 18th 
century, 
> but we know how slow wizards are to change).

I'm sure that really I ought to know the answer to questions such as 
this, but, is there any evidence of Scottish influence on JKR other 
than that she has lived there for the last few years?

I note that there is a tendency for people to think JKR is in some 
sense Scottish, but I understand she is essentially an English 
immigrant.  Of course she may be absorbing specifically Scottish 
ideas and putting them into the books, but IIRC the HP series was 
initially conceived before she moved there.

I suspect that non-English legal concepts in the series could come 
either from her study of French at university or, IMO the most 
likely in view of the general context of the Pensieve scenes, from 
her work for Amnesty International.

David, whose class at school included Clive Gardner, David Wacksman, 
and Simon Rose, all Jewish.




From julia at thequiltbug.com  Mon Mar  3 16:06:22 2003
From: julia at thequiltbug.com (Calliope)
Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 08:06:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: My own education rant
Message-ID: <20030303080623.21218.h007.c011.wm@mail.thequiltbug.com.criticalpath.net>

"Richelle Votaw" wrote:

<major snippage>

>>>? But here is the problem I have with this system.? All schools are judged on
the same criteria.? <snip> I was showing one of the parents a test their student
failed and explaining how they did not use is/are and was/were correctly on the
page.? The parent was fascinated to learn that there was a rule for using is/are
and was/were.? She had me repeat it three times and was writing it down so she
would remember.? 

Me:

Sounds like we teach at the same kind of school.  It's very interesting that the
parents' education and attitude toward school has so much influence on how a
child performs; yet somehow, the teachers always manage to bear the brunt of the
blame.  If I hear one more politician rant on about how our schools are "falling
behind" and blaming it solely on the teachers, I think my head will explode. 
We're doing the best we can; sure there are a few duffers (I like to think that
most teachers are more capable than Quirrel or Lockhart or Hagrid - bless his
heart - for example <grin> and have more respect for their students than Snape -
I try to be a sort of Lupin-McGonagall cross) but most of us are working hard,
and we aren't superheroes.  Just regular people.  *sigh*

Calliope

(Who is surprised that Harry turned out to be a decent student, given that the
Dursleys probably never helped him with his schoolwork at all; and who would
love to have a class full of Hermione's.)

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Calliopes_fics/
http://www.thedarkarts.org/authorLinks/Calliope/
http://www.riddikulus.org/authorLinks/Calliope/



From julia at thequiltbug.com  Mon Mar  3 16:09:57 2003
From: julia at thequiltbug.com (Calliope)
Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 08:09:57 -0800 (PST)
Subject: You know you're obessed with HP when...
Message-ID: <20030303080957.26388.h007.c011.wm@mail.thequiltbug.com.criticalpath.net>

You teach your 4th grade music class about the notes on the treble staff, and
instead of teaching "Every Good Boy Does Fine" for the line notes, you have a
strong urge to say "Enraged Granger Bats Draco's Face".  While the kids are busy
thinking up their own sentences to help them remember EGBDF and FACE, you think
about how many different HP related sentences you can come up with, and squeal
when a kid does a FACE sentence beginning with "Ferret".

Calliope  (who needs to get back to focusing on music, and not HP.)  <grin>

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Calliopes_fics/
http://www.thedarkarts.org/authorLinks/Calliope/
http://www.riddikulus.org/authorLinks/Calliope/



From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Mon Mar  3 16:35:02 2003
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David <dfrankiswork@netscape.net>)
Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 16:35:02 -0000
Subject: My own education rant ( Re: Reading, Writing, and Multiple Choice)
In-Reply-To: <008e01c2e197$632585f0$079dcdd1@RVotaw>
Message-ID: <b4007m+b9el@eGroups.com>

Richelle wrote:

> Yet the government is perfectly content to continue supporting 
these people without doing anything to help them better their lives 
and become more productive citizens and better parents.  

You make it sound like that's an irrational or counterproductive 
policy.

Surely one of the main aims of education policy in a democracy is to 
maintain an underclass to make the rest feel they are doing well?

David, who thinks that if veritaserum was administered in the water 
supply, the 'Do other people down' party would win every election - 
come to think of it, it does anyway




From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk  Mon Mar  3 16:54:41 2003
From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak <pipdowns@etchells0.demon.co.uk>)
Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 16:54:41 -0000
Subject: JKR's influences (was What is JKR's religious beliefs?)
In-Reply-To: <b3vs14+l2tg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b401ch+8r4j@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "David <dfrankiswork at n...>" 
<dfrankiswork at n...> wrote:
David:
> I'm sure that really I ought to know the answer to questions such 
> as this, but, is there any evidence of Scottish influence on JKR 
> other than that she has lived there for the last few years?
> 
> I note that there is a tendency for people to think JKR is in some 
> sense Scottish, but I understand she is essentially an English 
> immigrant.  Of course she may be absorbing specifically Scottish 
> ideas and putting them into the books, but IIRC the HP series was 
> initially conceived before she moved there.
> 

Yes, there is evidence of Scottish influence. Her mother was half 
Scottish, half French. Quite how many trips back to Scottish 
relatives the Rowlings family made I don't know, but her sister 
certainly went to live in Edinburgh before Joanne K. Rowling did.

Hence the belief that Rowlings is Scottish; she has Scottish family, 
she lives in Scotland. She was brought up in England, but that's not 
necessarily the country she sees as her home.

Pip




From smotgreg at hotmail.com  Mon Mar  3 19:54:50 2003
From: smotgreg at hotmail.com (Greg Johnson)
Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 11:54:50 -0800
Subject: Thank you
Message-ID: <F68BZ76kronobefaVXE000192c2@hotmail.com>

And Hufflepuff wins the House Cup! OK, so it's a little far-fetched, but a 
victory of that magnitude *did* just happen in my little world.

<Happy Dance! Happy Dance!>

Johnny Spillane was the first (FIRST!) US Nordic World Champion!!!!

For those who do not know, or care, the US is pretty much the Hufflepuff 
House of the Nordic Combined world. Europe is the powerhouse there <smiles 
and friendly nods to all our European friends), so I am absolutely thrilled. 
  Besides, Johnny's from my hometown of Steamboat Springs, Colorado. Gotta 
cheer on the home crowd.

I found this quote in our newspaper regarding Mr. Rogers:

"His grandfather used to tell him, "You made this day a special day, just 
because you were here and you are you.  I like you just the way you are."  
This phrase, this gift, became his inheritance from the old man.  And he 
passed it along to our children."

I'd like to pass this phrase to all of you, fellow HP fanatics. As pathetic 
as it sounds, like I have no life, I can't tell you how much it means to 
have a cup of tea and lurk through the postings once my baby is napping. 
After 10 years of a career in the real world, being a stay at home mom has 
its limitations, as well as delights.  To find, though, a group of people 
who love to converse about education, grammar, and all things Potter, well, 
let me just leave it at "thank you."

Stacie (who really, really loves staying at home, and can't wait for Nick to 
be able to get as excited as she does over Harry Potter.  I already read to 
him aloud from them, anyway.)







_________________________________________________________________
The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*  
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail




From ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com  Mon Mar  3 22:24:54 2003
From: ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com (Petra Pan)
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 14:24:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: What are JKR's religious beliefs?
In-Reply-To: <b3uht7+7km9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20030303222454.92117.qmail@web21110.mail.yahoo.com>

Penny, in part:
> Certainly most of these Christian
> commentators I've discussed above
> believe that she is Christian and
> that this shows through in her
> work. I'd agree with that
> assessment in general.

Say, Penny, can you tell me if in the 
process of discussing the various 
themes and motifs of JKR's books the 
authors of these books that you've 
been reading distinguish between that 
which is at the core of just about 
every major religion in this world of 
ours AND that which is specifically 
of the Christian tradition?

In other words, as Christianity 
covers much of the same grounds as 
the various religions and faiths 
mentioned earlier in this thread, do 
any of these books identify what is 
exclusively Christian (read: grounds 
not covered by faiths other than 
Christian) about JKR's work?

Perhaps it's just me but I do find 
JKR's themes and motifs to be 
amazingly universal: irregardless of 
what faith the reader, what she says 
about human nature resonates strongly 
in just about all corners of our 
world.  The diversity of HPFGU 
certainly attests to that fact; her 
words ring true across man-made (dare 
I say artificial?) divisions and 
designations.

If this viewpoint fails to 
incorporate aspects of the books that 
stem from Christianity and 
Christianity only, could someone 
enlighten me?

Please? <not a smirk in sight here>

Just so that we are on the same page, 
I should mention that I am indeed 
familiar with the Christian 
tradition.  Besides having attended 
schools that teach the Christian 
tradition, because I majored in 
English literature in college, I've 
also studied much of the Canon...you 
know, the one that isn't actually 
written by JKR.  :)

Lest anyone mistake this for a 
challenge of someone's religious 
beliefs, I should clarify here and 
now that I have no intentions of 
denigrating any particular belief.  I 
do however believe that the origins 
of all the great religious traditions 
take their cues from the same source: 
the spark of divinity in every human 
being.  That spark burns bright in 
some of us...and flickers feebly in 
some of us.  I believe that most of 
the great religious teachers sought 
to foster that spark, that impulse to 
do good.  I include Christ himself in 
that category.

These titles that you are reading 
serve a very important purpose but as 
I am not one of those who have failed 
to see the good that are in JKR's 
books (that's essentially true of all 
of us here) and need to have the 
parallels between JKR's themes and 
themes explored in the Bible pointed 
out for me, I am curious to know if 
these books offer insights of even 
broader scope...or do they only 
explore the common ground between the 
HP themes and Christianity?

Petra
a
n  :)

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/



From lucky_kari at yahoo.ca  Tue Mar  4 01:27:46 2003
From: lucky_kari at yahoo.ca (lucky_kari <lucky_kari@yahoo.ca>)
Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 01:27:46 -0000
Subject: Ever So Evil household objects
In-Reply-To: <005101c2dfad$5ee509c0$45db32d2@price>
Message-ID: <b40vei+2sbk@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Tabouli" <tabouli at u...> 
wrote:
<About the Throne of the Bone>
> Heh heh heh.  You really must write your memoirs one day, you know 
>Elkins.

Hear! Hear! But I want yours too, Tabouli. That pincushion story sent 
shivers down my spine. 

My Ever So Evil household object was parents' collection of National 
Geographics. I was convinced that the spirits of the assorted mummies 
and skeletons pictured within possessed the National Geographics. 
They were on a shelf near the stairs out of the basement, and during 
the day I didn't bother about them. 

But at night... At night, I tiptoed by so that they couldn't hear me. 
And I kept my eye on them so that they wouldn't follow me. 

To this day, the yellow cover of a National Geographic brings back 
feelings of terrified horror. 

The upshot of this story is, of course, that I've become addicted to 
National Geographic. Reading even the most inane stories creates a 
delicious chill. 

Eileen




From fluxed at earthlink.net  Tue Mar  4 02:04:22 2003
From: fluxed at earthlink.net (A. Vulgarweed)
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 20:04:22 -0600
Subject: JKR's religious beliefs?
Message-ID: <l03130302ba89b9735f1a@[65.58.40.97]>

Actually, the thing that struck me the most oddly about the original post
was the idea of a *SEVENTEEN-YEAR-OLD* still allowing her parents to
dictate what she can and can't read. Jeez, this kid is one year away from
legal independence - I would hope she's been stretching her "independence"
wings intellectually at least a _little_. I'm kind of blown away, 'cause
I've never heard of a kid with strict parents who didn't indulge in at
least a little of the most harmless "forbidden fruit" at the library. Wow.

AV





From susannahlm at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  4 03:21:43 2003
From: susannahlm at yahoo.com (derannimer <susannahlm@yahoo.com>)
Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 03:21:43 -0000
Subject: RANT Re: Christians and Magic. Read at your own peril!
Message-ID: <b41647+7uvi@eGroups.com>

Amy wrote: 

"I just thought of this and I realized I didn't know. I was chatting 
with someone online who is 17 and their parents won't let them read 
HP but she reads Lord of the Rings, Narnia etc. She said her parents 
said she could read them because Tolkein and Lewis are Christians. 
Isn't JKR one too? I don't want to start a debate but I just never 
remember hearing about if she practices anything."

I'm sorry, this isn't really pertinent to the question, but:

I have heard this argument before from some Christians; you know, 
the: "Well, magic's okay when *Christians* do it," and I must confess 
that I absolutely cannot fathom it. 

If there is something *inherently wrong* with depicting magic in a 
story, then the fact that a Christian is depicting it could in no way 
make it "okay." If anything, it would make it worse. I mean, let's 
look at some other sin.

Take adultery. If you're a Christian, and you believe adultery is 
wrong, then if a Christian practices adultery, would that make it 
*right?* Or would that instead make it doubly shameful?

And if depicting magic in a story *is* okay for Christians, then 
there's nothing inherently wrong with it, for *anyone.* In which 
case, what would be the problem with reading the books in the first 
place? 

I'm sorry if I've offended anyone in any way--it certainly was not my 
intent--but I've heard this argument *a lot* and it makes absolutely 
no sense to me. 



Derannimer (who is a Christian, and who knows other Christians who 
have made this argument, and who gets really mad about this. In case 
you couldn't tell. ; ))





From catlady at wicca.net  Tue Mar  4 03:37:09 2003
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston) <catlady@wicca.net>)
Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 03:37:09 -0000
Subject: interviews about Re: What is JKR's religious beliefs?
In-Reply-To: <b3uht7+7km9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b41715+10kr0@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Penny Linsenmayer" wrote: 

> 
> 3.  Catlady: if JKR told a Canadian paper that she doesn't discuss
> religion much *because* those familiar with Christian doctrine 
> could figure out how the series ends, I'd sure loovvvvvvvvvve to 
> read that. Can you provide a link?

I wish I could! Someday I will learn to at least bookmark every 
interesting site that someone leads me, or maybe copy JKR interviews 
on my hard drive like that woman in the shipping debate on the mail 
list did. Here's all I could find with Google:

http://tmatt.gospelcom.net/column/2001/11/21/ : 
"Last year, Rowling told a Canadian reporter that she is a Christian 
and that this "seems to offend the religious right far worse than if 
I said I thought there was no God. Every time I've been asked if I 
believe in God, I've said, 'yes,' because I do. But no one ever 
really has gone any more deeply into it than that and, I have to say 
that does suit me. ... If I talk too freely about that, I think the 
intelligent reader -- whether 10 or 60 -- will be able to guess what 
is coming in the books." "

Btw, the Goat Pad gets two hits on "Church of Scotland":

Charmed, I'm Sure By Linton Weeks Washington Post Staff Writer 
Wednesday, October...
  ...In Edinburgh, mother and daughter belonged to a Church of 
Scotland congregation. Jessica was christened there. At church
Rowling met an older woman...
56% Sun, 22 Dec 2002 01:27:39 GMT 
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/style/books/... 

Go to: Guardian Unlimited home UK news World news Archive search Arts 
Books Business EducationGuardian.co.uk Film
Football Jobs MediaGuardian.co.uk M...
  ...of her own beliefs and inspirations - including her involvement 
with the Church of Scotland, and in particular, her long-term
admiration for the wildly...
55% Sun, 22 Dec 2002 01:27:08 GMT 
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,... 

FANTASTIC POSTS led me to the "more than weddings and christenings" 
quote:
http://cbc.ca/programs/sites/hottype_rowlingcomplete.html
E: But in your own life, I mean, are you a churchgoer? 
JK: (Nods) Mmm hmm. Well I go more than to weddings and christenings. 
Yes, I do. 




From pennylin at swbell.net  Tue Mar  4 03:48:42 2003
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny Linsenmayer <pennylin@swbell.net>)
Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 03:48:42 -0000
Subject: What are JKR's religious beliefs?
In-Reply-To: <20030303222454.92117.qmail@web21110.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <b417mq+8hd7@eGroups.com>

Hi 

I said, in part:
> > Certainly most of these Christian
> > commentators I've discussed above
> > believe that she is Christian and
> > that this shows through in her
> > work. I'd agree with that
> > assessment in general.

Petra Pan asked:
> 
> Say, Penny, can you tell me if in the 
> process of discussing the various 
> themes and motifs of JKR's books the 
> authors of these books that you've 
> been reading distinguish between that 
> which is at the core of just about 
> every major religion in this world of 
> ours AND that which is specifically 
> of the Christian tradition?

<big snip>

I am curious to know if 
> these books offer insights of even 
> broader scope...or do they only 
> explore the common ground between the 
> HP themes and Christianity?

Ah, yes.  Well, all of these authors are perhaps necessarily biased by
the fact that they *are* Christian, which no doubt colors the analysis
in some measure.  But, Francis Bridger's work very definitely
addresses the universal themes in HP ..... universal themes that are
common to many of the world's religions that is.  IMO, he doesn't
dwell as much on themes or symbolism that are specific to Christianity
and takes overall a more humanist view in his analysis.  After I read
it and when we were discussing potential special guests to Nimbus -
2003 last fall, I recommended that non-Christians on the Nimbus staff
read the Bridger book.  I know Gwen did .....and that she liked it.  

Killinger emphasizes his belief that the Judeo-Christian heritage is
the underpinning to Rowling's work, so he does go a bit beyond
straight Christianity.  He also acknowledges the universalism of many
of the books' themes.  But like Granger, he finds a great deal of the
symbolism in HP to be Christian.  Granger flat-out says that Rowling
either is a Christian or has a remarkable fetish for Christian imagery
and symbols.  <g>  Connie Neal's books would probably not be terribly
appealing to non-Christians.....or at least I would imagine that
non-Christians would find more insights in Bridger, Killinger or
Granger.  

Look for my book review ......it really *is* upcoming soon. 
:::ignores the whispers of "yeah, right" resonating:::::::

Penny 




From Malady579 at hotmail.com  Tue Mar  4 04:42:14 2003
From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody <Malady579@hotmail.com>)
Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 04:42:14 -0000
Subject: RANT Re: Christians and Magic. Read at your own peril!
In-Reply-To: <b41647+7uvi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b41ar6+rrlr@eGroups.com>

Derannimer ranted:
> I'm sorry, this isn't really pertinent to the question, but:
> I have heard this argument before from some Christians; you know,
> the: "Well, magic's okay when *Christians* do it," and I must
> confess that I absolutely cannot fathom it.

Amen, sister.

Ok, I have never hidden that fact I am a Christian from the site.  I
say it with pride, but what I do often kind of hide is the fact I was
raised Southern Baptist.  I adore my home church to death, but
sometimes...well lets say the church body can be a bit pigheaded and
stubborn.  Luckily though, my parents taught my brother and I that
just because the church people say something does *NOT* mean it from
God.  People have a way of twisting the scriptures to fit their own
purpose sometimes.

My whole family adores the series.  They introduced it to me in fact,
though I have now become more obsessed with it than any of them.  We
all grit our teeth when someone in church says something against the
series.  We each have our own ways of dealing with it though.  In the
case of my brother, he is particularly quick to jump down those that
curse HP for "religious" reasons.  I tend to avoid the subject but if
someone speaks out against I am right along beside him defending HP.
(yeah, I am a defender type.  Didn't you know?  <grin>)  Generally the
conversations my brother has ends once the HP curser say they like
LotR or the Chronicles of Narnia.  The point is proven that they are
being bias.  Sometimes he can get them on Star Wars alone.

If they are persistent, then he goes to "Well, have you read HP?"  The
answer is almost always "No", so he says "Fine, then you do not know
what you are talking about.  Read the books and get back with me with
your point."

Once he did get the above argument Derannimer.  He looked the person
in the eye and said "Tell me.  When did the words from a Christian
writer mean they were more sanctioned by God?  If magic is so wrong,
then how is it that *anyone* can write it proper?  I think you need to
go reread _The_Bible_ closer and you will see that just because
someone is Christian does not mean they are more in tune with God.
And besides, who are you to say JKR isn't a Christian?"

The person stormed away, but it was funny...and true.  See - to be
honest, people want to be right.  They want to trust the word from
their "church" as manna from heaven almost.  They want to say *that*
is right.  *That* is from God.  Often times, they do not read closer.
 It is easier to listen to someone on a soapbox and say they are
right.  That they know what is going on.  They take their word as
gospel, and never study for themselves to find out if it is in fact
gospel or not.

So when some pastor (or any respected person in a church) decides to
say HP is bad because it has witchcraft, then people just nod and say
ok.  They tend to not think past it to whether it is in fact good or
not.  --I mean he/she has studied _The_Bible_ a *long* time.  He/She
*must* know what is right and wrong if anyone does.--  (ok, my sarcasm
is off now.)

Now, why that respected member says that?  Well, I have had my own
conclusions on the matter being raise with some interesting things
told to me in church by people that "meant well," but I will not go
into it here.  Mostly it is because they were told something once a
long time ago on something not even related to JKR's books, and then
feel they are "in tune" with God, and thus think their "impression" or
conclusion is what God tells them as right.

So when you point out that they like other forms of "witchcraft" in
their literature, well they get defensive.  Strike back with the first
thing that comes to their head.  That "well Christian writers can
write it from a Christian perspective" crap that makes no sense.

So really, Derannimer.  Some people will never get it.  They take a
person at their word and never investigate it further as to whether it
is backed up by scripture.  Then they think they have a "good" defense
to their views, and they never do.  If anything, be gentle back.  Show
them what they are missing.  Show them how they are being
shortsighted.  After all, one does not have to confess on the grand
stage that they are Christian to be one.  How are they to say she
isn't?  Really, it is none of our business.  That is between her and God.

And if I offended anyone with what I said here, or someone has issues
with something I made in comment, please feel free to email me off
list.  I truly did not mean to offend anyone by my statements, but if
I did, I would like to apologies and amend what I said.  For I myself
can be a bit shortsighted too.


Melody
and if I type your name Derannimer a few more hundred times, I might
just be able to get it right the first time I type it.  :)




From joym999 at aol.com  Tue Mar  4 18:55:43 2003
From: joym999 at aol.com (joywitch_m_curmudgeon <joym999@aol.com>)
Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 18:55:43 -0000
Subject: SPAGridden and Ever So Evil household objects
In-Reply-To: <005101c2dfad$5ee509c0$45db32d2@price>
Message-ID: <b42srf+ebd0@eGroups.com>

Obviously, no rant about spelling and grammar is complete without 
both the author's embarassed realization of errors made and the 
nitpicking reader's discovery of extremely minor, yet amusing 
mistakes.  My turn with the fine-toothed comb:


--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Tabouli" <tabouli at u...> 
wrote:
> some sort of marinaded chicken 

I believe that chicken is "marinated," not "marinaded," although it 
is confusing because the stuff we marinate-with-a-T our chicken in is 
called marinade-with-a-D.  Of course, different countries do things 
differently, so I am willing to concede the vague possibility that 
although Americans marinate, Australians may well marinade.

--Joywitch M. Curmudgeon, proud founder of the League of Obsessed 
Nitpickers




From ldenell at apl.org  Tue Mar  4 20:20:13 2003
From: ldenell at apl.org (ldenell at apl.org)
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 14:20:13 -0600 
Subject: short-wave radio advice needed
Message-ID: <E00569F3DB6D3E418AACCF8DF30BBB110722F1@apl.org>

Hello, source of much wisdom!
My recent purchase of an emergency radio has flushed me out of my cherished
lurker status to ask you folks a question. When I ordered this nifty little
device I had no idea it was going to include "world radio" bands --- I was
reacting to news of blizzards and ice storms and wanted something that would
keep me connected to the world in case Wisconsin ever got snow. (We haven't.
Have to go south for that this year.) Anyway, the radio comes, my twelve
year old son takes one look and absconds with it hoping to pull in BBC
Radio, etc. Problem is, we don't know where on the two short-wave dials to
look. Any radio buffs out there who could point a couple of rank amateurs in
the right direction? Much obliged!

- Linda (aka shylibrarian, because I am)

Linda DeNell 
Children's Librarian 
Appleton Public Library 



From john at queerasjohn.com  Tue Mar  4 20:28:51 2003
From: john at queerasjohn.com (Queer as John)
Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 20:28:51 +0000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] short-wave radio advice needed
In-Reply-To: <E00569F3DB6D3E418AACCF8DF30BBB110722F1@apl.org>
Message-ID: <BA8ABD03.8D40%john@queerasjohn.com>

ldenell at apl.org said:

> Anyway, the radio comes, my twelve
> year old son takes one look and absconds with it hoping to pull in BBC
> Radio, etc. Problem is, we don't know where on the two short-wave dials to
> look. Any radio buffs out there who could point a couple of rank amateurs in
> the right direction? Much obliged!

Hi Linda,

Take a look at http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/ -- about halfway down on
the right hand side there's a spot for inputting your nearest city. Have an
explore around the site for schedules and tuning info.

Britishly, and humming the World Service tune,

--John

______________________________________

Queer as John || john at queerasjohn.com

AIM, YM & LJ @ QueerAsJohn || www.queerasjohn.com

In case of emergency, break glass. Scream. Bleed to death.
______________________________________




From ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  4 22:06:33 2003
From: ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com (Petra Pan)
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 14:06:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: What are JKR's religious beliefs?
In-Reply-To: <b417mq+8hd7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20030304220633.62614.qmail@web21110.mail.yahoo.com>

Penny wrote, in part:
> Look for my book review ......
> it really *is* upcoming soon.

If you should happen to be 
"taking requests" from readers:

I'd be most interested in comments 
on the inter- or cross-faith aspects 
(or lack of thereof) in these books!

Petra
a
n  :)

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/



From hebrideanblack at earthlink.net  Tue Mar  4 22:18:17 2003
From: hebrideanblack at earthlink.net (wendy st. john)
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 14:18:17 -0800
Subject: HP Audio Books
Message-ID: <410-22003324221817433@earthlink.net>

Hello, Everyone,

I'm considering buying the HP books on audio CD, mainly for playing in my
car. I can't decide which version I want to get  - the UK version, read by
Stephen Fry, or the US version read by Jim Dale. Is there anyone here on
the list who has listened to both versions (or parts of each), and has
recommendations about which one they liked best? I'd also love to hear
opinions of anyone who has listened to either version, and what you liked
and didn't like about it. Also, I don't really know who Jim Dale is . . .is
he reading the books in an American accent or a British one? Thanks in
advance!

:-)
Wendy







From pinguthegreek at ukf.net  Tue Mar  4 22:25:10 2003
From: pinguthegreek at ukf.net (Michelle Apostolides)
Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 22:25:10 +0000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] HP Audio Books
In-Reply-To: <410-22003324221817433@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20030304222022.02628200@mail.ukf.net>

At 22:18 04/03/2003, you wrote:
>Hello, Everyone,
>
>I'm considering buying the HP books on audio CD, mainly for playing in my
>car. I can't decide which version I want to get  - the UK version, read by
>Stephen Fry, or the US version read by Jim Dale. Is there anyone here on
>the list who has listened to both versions (or parts of each), and has
>recommendations about which one they liked best? I'd also love to hear
>opinions of anyone who has listened to either version, and what you liked
>and didn't like about it. Also, I don't really know who Jim Dale is . . .is
>he reading the books in an American accent or a British one? Thanks in
>advance!


Hiya

Well, I've heard both versions of Azkaban and Goblet of Fire and, to be 
honest, Fry is better, to my mind. Jim Dale was a famous comedy actor of 
the sixties and seventies in the UK, but now lives is the US. I personally 
think that he has a slight US accent. It honestly depends where you live 
and what you're looking for. Dale acts more and gives all the characters 
distinctive voices. Whereas it's easier to pick up on the subtle humour of 
the narration with Fry.

I'd say my vote is with Fry ( as you might have guessed ) but then I am a 
Brit !!

Michelle


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From thalia at aokp.org  Tue Mar  4 23:50:10 2003
From: thalia at aokp.org (chanteuse thalia chaunacy)
Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 15:50:10 -0800
Subject: news & a request
Message-ID: <WorldClient-F200303041550.AA50100130@aokp.org>

i know most of you don't care one bit about my personal life, but...

i'm getting married! <happy dance>

and we're both recovering christians. so--

anybody know any fun non-judeo-christian wedding ceremonies/practices? or 
any helpful resources?

(fine to email me back privately)

thalia 'wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!' chaunacy


"Ah, music. A magic beyond all we do here!"  -Albus Dumbledore




From zeff8 at attbi.com  Wed Mar  5 00:04:55 2003
From: zeff8 at attbi.com (Prof_chase)
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 19:04:55 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] HP Audio Books
References: <410-22003324221817433@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <00e001c2e2aa$da9e7290$9c01f50c@mac>

Wendy, I have Jim Dale's versions, and my friend has Stepehn Fry's. I found
both are good, but I found the Jim Dales versions to be easier to listen to.




For a voice and text chat, Join us at Hogwarts School on Paltalk, in the
Meet new friends group.
Join HP collectables, to discuss collecting various HP items.
Subscribe:  HPcollectables-subscribe at yahoogroups.com
Unsubscribe:  HPcollectables-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
List owner:  HPcollectables-owner at yahoogroups.com

----- Original Message -----
From: "wendy st. john" <hebrideanblack at earthlink.net>
To: <HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 5:18 PM
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] HP Audio Books


> Hello, Everyone,
>
> I'm considering buying the HP books on audio CD, mainly for playing in my
> car. I can't decide which version I want to get  - the UK version, read by
> Stephen Fry, or the US version read by Jim Dale. Is there anyone here on
> the list who has listened to both versions (or parts of each), and has
> recommendations about which one they liked best? I'd also love to hear
> opinions of anyone who has listened to either version, and what you liked
> and didn't like about it. Also, I don't really know who Jim Dale is . .
.is
> he reading the books in an American accent or a British one? Thanks in
> advance!
>
> :-)
> Wendy
>
>
>
>
>
> ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________
>
> Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the group's Admin Files!
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/
>
> Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material
from posts to which you're replying!
>
> Is your message...
> An announcement of merchandise, news etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements.
> Movie-related? Send it to HPFGU-Movie.
> Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups.
> None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter.
> Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods --
MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com
>
> Unsubscribing? Email HPFGU-OTChatter-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
> ____________________________________________________________
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>




From melclaros at yahoo.com  Wed Mar  5 01:30:38 2003
From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros)
Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 01:30:38 -0000
Subject: My own education rant ( Re: Reading, Writing, and Multiple Choice)
In-Reply-To: <008e01c2e197$632585f0$079dcdd1@RVotaw>
Message-ID: <b43jvu+4h2h@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Richelle Votaw" 
<rvotaw at i...> wrote:



Yet the government is perfectly content to continue supporting these 
people without doing anything to help them better their lives and 
become more productive citizens and better parents.  While still 
comparing the scores of my students, whose parents have an 8th grade 
education to those in the lab school, whose parents have PHD's.   


....and may I add....

IN the case of FLORIDA, the State Gvt. is using those hugely 
disparate test scores to FINANCIALLY (yes, actually hand out MONEY) 
reward the schools in the state that perform the best on these tests. 
These idiots don't seem to be able to get it through their heads that 
SCHOOLS don't take tests, CHILDREN do. A child who has come to school 
from a home (in the broadest sense of the definition--Florida is a 
migrant state) such as what you've described in your district can not 
possibly perform at the same level on the same test given on the same 
day as a child from a stable environment who has had a good night's 
sleep, a good breakfast, a leisurely ride to school in Mom's 
Navigator and who's been exposed to books and been read to 
consistantly since babyhood. 
TRUE EXAMPLE: FL is testing this week, the Infamous FCAT. A 4th grade 
teacher came into the lounge Monday afternoon looking for a newspaper 
and asking if anyone had heard anything about anyone being shot. It 
seems one of her students' Father/Uncle/SignificantMaleRoleModel had 
been shot and killed during a botched robbery attempt the previous 
evening (we're still not sure in which end of the robbery he was 
involved). How do you think THAT 9 year old's  test score is going to 
stand up to one of his cohorts in one of the more affluent counties? 
Couldn't he be excused? Well yes, but you see, we lose "points" if we 
have less than 100% participation in the test. That would decrease 
the amount of our check next year when the results come out. And, you 
understand of course, if *that's* the sort of student we have to rely 
on taking the test at our school for OUR GRADE (Did I mention FL 
schools are graded? Based on this test?) then we damned well need 
every "point" we can get, don't we?
Makes me ill, it really does. There has GOT to be a better way! We 
were tested in school. We took all sorts of standard tests. Multiple 
choice bubble sheets, blue book essays, IOWAS, Regents, ACTS, and 
SATS. They were used to assess US. OUR Individual progress. They were 
not used as political tools!

Melpomene--it's not the test, it's the testers!





From melclaros at yahoo.com  Wed Mar  5 01:34:14 2003
From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros)
Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 01:34:14 -0000
Subject: Thank you
In-Reply-To: <F68BZ76kronobefaVXE000192c2@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <b43k6m+gph6@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Greg Johnson" 
<smotgreg at h...> wrote:
> 
> Stacie (who really, really loves staying at home, and can't wait 
for Nick to 
> be able to get as excited as she does over Harry Potter.  I already 
read to 
> him aloud from them, anyway.)

Hi Stacie,
I stayed home with mine for...mumble...years. It's an adventure for 
sure and the hardest job you'll ever have. Enjoy these moments with 
your tea! You certainly deserve them!

Melpomene




From ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com  Wed Mar  5 01:49:39 2003
From: ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com (Petra Pan)
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 17:49:39 -0800 (PST)
Subject: HP Audio Books
In-Reply-To: <410-22003324221817433@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20030305014939.89729.qmail@web21105.mail.yahoo.com>

wendy st. john:
> I'm considering buying the HP books
> on audio CD, mainly for playing in my
> car. I can't decide which version I want
> to get  - the UK version, read by
> Stephen Fry, or the US version read by
> Jim Dale. Is there anyone here on
> the list who has listened to both
> versions (or parts of each), and has
> recommendations about which one they
> liked best? I'd also love to hear
> opinions of anyone who has listened to
> either version, and what you liked
> and didn't like about it. Also, I don't
> really know who Jim Dale is . . .is
> he reading the books in an American
> accent or a British one? Thanks in
> advance!

There are at least a couple of threads 
in the archives starting at

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/
HPFGU-OTChatter/message/13664

and at 

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/
HPFGU-OTChatter/message/11799

You should check 'em out.

     *     *

I love them both and go back and forth 
between them myself.  But IF I had to 
pick only one, my choice would be Fry.  
My library would already have the Dale 
ones available for me to borrow. :) They 
however do not have the UK versions in 
their collections.

But really, I don't think you can go 
wrong with either version.  The 
question is, just how deep does YOUR 
obsession run?  Might you want both?  
<evil grin>  Definitely buy the CD's 
though - my poor tapes are practically 
in shreds...

Petra
a
n  :)

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/



From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Wed Mar  5 01:59:19 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 01:59:19 -0000
Subject: My own education rant ( Re: Reading, Writing, and Multiple Choice)
In-Reply-To: <b43jvu+4h2h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b43lln+cjmi@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "melclaros" <melclaros at y...>
wrote:

> 
> ... FLORIDA, the State Gvt. is using those hugely disparate test 
> scores to FINANCIALLY (yes, actually hand out MONEY) reward the 
> schools in the state that perform the best on these tests. 
> These idiots don't seem to be able to get it through their heads 
> that SCHOOLS don't take tests, CHILDREN do. A child who has come 
> to school from a home such as what you've described in your district
> can not possibly perform at the same level on the same test given on 
> the same day as a child from a stable environment who has had a good 
> night's sleep, a good breakfast, a leisurely ride to school in Mom's 
> Navigator and who's been exposed to books and been read to 
> consistantly since babyhood. 
> 
> ...edited...
> 
> Melpomene--it's not the test, it's the testers!


bboy_mn:

So let me summarize, they consistently keep giving you more money as
long as you keep proving you don't need it, and as long as you keep
proving that you do need more money/resource, they keep taking them away?

Then they raise your taxes so they can afford to continue to do the same.

Is that a fair assessment?

Again we are stuck with people/politicians who are desparately trying
to modify the symptoms so as to disguise them, because once they have
sufficiently disguised the problem and sufficiently distracted the
votes, they can comfortably go back to ignoring the problem.

...or did I misunderstand?

bboy_mn




From blessedbrian at yahoo.com  Wed Mar  5 02:23:23 2003
From: blessedbrian at yahoo.com (Brian Cordova)
Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 02:23:23 -0000
Subject: PARENTS AND CHILDREN VOTE HARRY POTTER NUMBER ONE
Message-ID: <b43n2r+3p4j@eGroups.com>



2003/0033

4 March 2003

PARENTS AND CHILDREN VOTE HARRY POTTER NUMBER ONE

As World Book Day approaches, research from the Department for
Education and Skills' 'Get On' campaign reveals that both parents and
children alike say Harry Potter books are their favourite read.

The 'Get On' campaign, which has already helped over 100,000 adults
improve their reading skills to date, asked parents and children to
name their favourite children's books. After the Harry Potter series,
adults then ranked CS Lewis' 'Chronicles of Narnia' in second place
and Enid Blyton stories in joint third place with Charlie and the
Chocolate Factory; but children aged 11-16 voted 'The Lord of the
Rings' in second place.

Ivan Lewis, Minister for Young People and Adult Skills, urged parents
who might feel they are missing out on the experience of sharing
books with their children to see what the 'Get On' campaign could
offer them:

"We have invested #1.6billion in our Skills for Life strategy to help
adults 'Get On' and improve their literacy. I encourage any mums and
dads, who feel they are missing out, to call 0800 100 900 and
register for one of the thousands of free literacy courses available
across the country, which will help them get on and conquer their
literacy 'gremlins'."

Mother-of-four Deborah Bent, from Sutton-in-Ashfield, passed the
National Literacy Test in 2001:

"I never felt confident enough to read to my oldest child once he
reached the age of nine, because of my literacy problems, and this
used to upset me and disappoint him. However, since I went on the
adult basic skills course, I now really love reading Harry Potter
books to all my children. I just wish I'd taken the course sooner, as
I found it a really welcoming and enjoyable experience, and not at
all intimidating. Now I've really got the learning bug - I'm taking
an Access Course in English and History, and I've got a conditional
place at Derby University to do a combined degree in English and
Teaching. If I can do it, anyone can!"

The 'Get On' promotional campaign is a key part of the Skills for
Life strategy launched in March 2001. The Government's aim is to
raise the skills levels of 750,000 adults by 2004 and of 1.5 million
adults in total by 2007.

NOTES TO EDITORS

This Press Notice applies to England.

1. Research into the reading habits and preferences of adults and
children was conducted by the Central Office of Information, with a
sample size of 3,769 adults aged over 20, of which 1,029 had children
aged 4-16; and 518 children aged 11-16. The extrapolation to the
total population was calculated using the 2001 Census statistics of
the total population aged over 20.

Rank
Children % vote
Adults % vote

1
Harry Potter books 26%
Harry Potter books 13%

2
The Lord of the Rings 12%
Chronicles of Narnia 10.3%

3
Charlie and the Chocolate Factory 9%
Famous Five / Secret Seven 10.1%

4
Chronicles of Narnia 3.3%
Charlie and the Chocolate Factory 10.1%

5
Books by Jacqueline Wilson 3.1%
The Lord of the Rings 9%

2. The 'Get On' adverts promote a freephone number 0800 100 900.
Callers can receive a free information pack, or speak to a
learndirect advisor to enable them to get information on courses in
their area. The free information pack contains a video which features
learners who explain the benefits of taking basic skills courses.

PUBLIC ENQUIRIES: 0870 000 2288 info at dfes.gsi.gov.uk
INTERNET ADDRESS : www.dfes.gov.uk

If you would like to receive email notification of new press notices
in the subjects of your choice, please click on 'register' on our
site: www.dfes.gov.uk, 'Latest News'.


http://www.gnn.gov.uk/gnn/national.nsf/Today's+Releases+Frame/F155D681
434E4AAE80256CDF003D220B?opendocument






From ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com  Wed Mar  5 02:52:23 2003
From: ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com (Petra Pan)
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 18:52:23 -0800 (PST)
Subject: registering pieces of writing (was) FF:  JKR getting sued...
In-Reply-To: <b43mjo+vkeh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20030305025223.97487.qmail@web21107.mail.yahoo.com>

(from the main list)

Heidi, in part:
> Accordingly, if someone wanted to
> successfully sue JKR in US court 
> for copyright infringement in a
> fanfic-related matter, JKR would 
> have to have used long phrases or
> sentences, or more, from said 
> fanfic in her novel. Word for word. 
> 
> Early last month, we had a thread
> on this very same issue on the OT 
> Chatter list, starting with post
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-
> OTChatter/message/13815. You might
> find those posts interesting, and 
> instead of reposting my analysis
> here, I just suggest you take a 
> peek at those posts.

Ooh...mind if I take this opportunity to 
ask a question that would have been belated 
but is now tangentially topical again:

With materials that are published on the 
web, how does one actually establish the 

(1) date/time such materials were published 
or fixed in a particular form/version/edition

and

(2) the exact word-for-word of said 
materials beyond reasonable doubt and 
suspicions of tampering with evidence?

Does anyone know of any reputable 
archives/registries that act as 
third-party entities that could testify 
impartially in the event of lawsuits?  
I know of only one and I'd like to hear 
about any other ones out there.

Petra, on a posting streak
a
n  :)

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/



From editor at texas.net  Wed Mar  5 03:34:29 2003
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist)
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 21:34:29 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Ever So Evil household objects
References: <b40vei+2sbk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <001e01c2e2c8$22254680$d36763d1@texas.net>

> My Ever So Evil household object was parents' collection of National
> Geographics. I was convinced that the spirits of the assorted mummies
> and skeletons pictured within possessed the National Geographics.
> They were on a shelf near the stairs out of the basement, and during
> the day I didn't bother about them.
>
> But at night... At night, I tiptoed by so that they couldn't hear me.
> And I kept my eye on them so that they wouldn't follow me.
>
> To this day, the yellow cover of a National Geographic brings back
> feelings of terrified horror.

My object of fear-in-the-house was a bit creepier. My next-oldest brother
was diagnosed with leukemia when he was 5 (I was 2). He died two years
later. My father was a sculptor, and had plans to make a bust of my brother
to cast, life-size. It never did get finished, but the clay model lived in
my parents' bedroom (where my dad had a worktable) for years and years and
years.

I loved Kelley and knew he wouldn't hurt me, but that gray head was always
just a little hard to walk past (the other bathroom was through their room).
I wouldn't go in there if nobody else was in the house.

~Amandageist






From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Wed Mar  5 03:08:26 2003
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 03:08:26 -0000
Subject: My own education rant ( Re: Reading, Writing, and Multiple Choice)
In-Reply-To: <008e01c2e197$632585f0$079dcdd1@RVotaw>
Message-ID: <b43pna+eas8@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Richelle Votaw" 
<rvotaw at i...> wrote:
 
> Now that you mention it, let me jump on my government rant.  First 
of all, Louisiana has been for years at the bottom of the scores in 
testing nationwide.  (Which, might I add, uniquely corresponds to 
Louisiana being at the bottom in teacher pay as well.  How 
interesting.) 
> 
> Richelle
> 
>
I'm a New Yorker transplanted to Louisiana, and I have been tutoring 
my friend's kids for the past three years-- quite successfully, I 
might add.  I have come to some conclusions about our public 
education system in the process.
 
I'm afraid that the following remarks will step on a few toes, attack 
some sacred cows, destroy some shibboleths (mix and match your 
favorite metaphor).  I keyed on the above lines from Richelle, 
because it reflects a common mistaken attitude:  that low teacher pay 
is the reason our students don't learn, and that raising teacher pay 
will correct the situation.

It could, but not unless some basic and extensive reforms are 
implemented first.

In the current situation with most school systems in the U.S.-- 
Louisiana is not alone-- teachers have tenure, and their salaries 
increase because of longevity irrespective of their abilities.  Any 
increase in teacher pay will be largely absorbed by the current 
cohort of teachers, be they Mr. Chips or be they barely literate 
(which, unfortunately, has been the case).

As I climb up on my soapbox, get ready for the Haggridd Nine 
Half-Giant Step Program to Improve Elementary and Secondary 
Education in the U.S.:

1.  Abolish teacher tenure.  Tenure was created to protect freedom of 
thought in Universities in medieval Europe, where the local sovereign 
could otherwise behead professors who held disturbing notions.  It 
has no place in American education at all.  This is doubly true for 
elementary and secondary education.

2.  Abolish degrees in education.  Teachers should learn an 
substantive body of knowledge and get a degree in a "real" , so that 
they will understand their subject well enough to be creative in 
communicating it in different ways to their pupils.  Those process 
course in educational techniques should be a minor for prospective 
teachers, but the "process" is far less important than the "who, 
what, when, where and why" of a subject-- any subject.

3.  A corollary to #2 is to facilitate certification of individuals 
who know their subjects, but do not have an "education" degree by 
exam.  I mean an exam about the subject, not about how to make 
posters as audio-visual aids.

4.  Retest teachers on their knowledge about the subjects they are 
teaching periodically, with real sanctions if they do not pass.

5.  Severely restrict the administrative structure that is soaking up 
ever more of the education budgets of school systems.  Assistant 
principals, guidance counselors, janitors and even schoolbus drivers 
partake of the same perquisites that we bestow on teachers, and leave 
less of the education budget dollar to go to those who actually teach.

6.  Pay raises should be merit-based, not longevity-based.  

7.  Recognize the NEA for what it is:  a craft union whose first 
interest is jobs, not education.  Its actions need to be seen in the 
proper light.  In districts where the students are performing 
abysmally, it vigorously attacks home-schooling, for example, on the 
grounds that the parents are not qualified to teach their children.  
Physician, heal thyself.

8.  Vouchers, vouchers, vouchers.  Unless there is a the ability for 
parents to opt out of a failing education system completely, and 
thereby deny it the funds allotted for that "seat", there will be 
little incentive to take the vigorous measures that are necessary, 
especially in light of #'s 1,5,&7 above.  Parochial schools should be 
eligible to participate in this voucher system, though no funds 
should go to support religious studies. (Yes, I realize that money is 
fungible; so what?)

9.  Then, and only then, should there be a significant increase in 
compensation for teachers.  I believe that much of the current 
resistance to such a measure is because #1-8 have not been 
implemented.

Okay, I have my bullet-proof vest on.  Fire when ready! :)


Haggridd

 






From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Wed Mar  5 07:13:59 2003
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 07:13:59 -0000
Subject: Education in a Democracy.  WAS: My own education rant
In-Reply-To: <b4007m+b9el@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b4483n+77mq@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "David <dfrankiswork at n...>" 
<dfrankiswork at n...> wrote:

> 
> Surely one of the main aims of education policy in a democracy is 
to 
> maintain an underclass to make the rest feel they are doing well?

The theory is that an educated citizenry will be an educated 
electorate.  It seems that a person's perspective on democracy is 
affected by that person's allegiance to some other form of 
governance.  I shudder to speculate as to which that might be.

Haggridd





From lupinesque at yahoo.com  Wed Mar  5 12:11:13 2003
From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z)
Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 12:11:13 -0000
Subject: Ever So Evil household objects
In-Reply-To: <b40vei+2sbk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b44ph1+r5cb@eGroups.com>

I think I had a lot of books I was afraid of like Eileen's National 
Geographics, but no specific one comes to mind.  But there was one 
Ever So Evil household object that haunted me for an entire 
summer . . . in fact, *several* household objects, because I was 
terrified of clocks.

Not all the time, mind you.  Not when they read, say, 3:30, or 
10:42.  Even midnight held no terror.  No, I was afraid of a very 
specific time.  If memory serves, it was 7:21.

See, that summer I saw this movie on TV:  The Hindenburg.  The idea 
behind The Hindenburg was that the disaster was caused by a time bomb 
planted aboard by someone, I guess an anti-fascist contingent.  The 
bomb was to go off at 7:30, when the Hindenburg had landed and only 
the top-brass Nazis were aboard having a cocktail party, or maybe it 
was to go off after everyone had left (even the Nazis), or 
something.  But anyway, the landing was delayed and the guy who set 
it went to re-set the timing, getting there, of course, with only a 
few minutes to spare.  I'll never forget the closeup of his sweating 
face and the timer on the bomb, which looked like an alarm clock, and 
how he turned it in the wrong direction (I guess) and BOOM.  Shot of 
man spinning into oblivion.

This scared the bejesus out of me, and true to the logic of children, 
instead of being terrified of bombs or zeppelins or anti-fascist 
guerrillas, I fixated on clocks.  I had a deathly terror of coming 
upon one when it was 7:21, as if that would somehow cause everything 
to come together and the bomb would go off.  So I would head outside 
around 7 p.m. and hunker down on the front steps, waiting for half an 
hour to pass, wondering if it had and wanting to go sneak a look at 
the clock to check, but what if I went in at EXACTLY 7:21?  

I don't even remember how I coped with my watch.  I must've taken it 
off for the entire summer.

And then there were the years in which cobras, a la Rikki Tikki Tavi, 
would come swarming out of the toilet if I flushed it.  I got very 
adept at getting as close as possible to the door, one finger 
outstretched to flush, and then running for my life.  But you all 
don't want to hear about that . . . 

Amy




From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Wed Mar  5 13:13:51 2003
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David)
Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 13:13:51 -0000
Subject: Education in a democracy: rationalised rant
In-Reply-To: <b4483n+77mq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b44t6f+pv9b@eGroups.com>

I sneered:

> > Surely one of the main aims of education policy in a democracy 
is to maintain an underclass to make the rest feel they are doing 
well?

Haggridd quivered:

> The theory is that an educated citizenry will be an educated 
> electorate.  It seems that a person's perspective on democracy is 
> affected by that person's allegiance to some other form of 
> governance.  I shudder to speculate as to which that might be.

That person?  Who?  Oh, you mean *me*!  **Turns pink with 
pleasure**  High praise indeed!  Who wants governance anyway?

(Do you mind if I don't start shouting 'I demand satisfaction!  Name 
your seconds!  Have at thee, varlet!'?  I would probably lose 
interest half-way through the duel and walk away, adversely 
affecting the entertainment value for spectators.)

Yeah, well, technic'ly, an educated citizenry will be an educated 
electorate.  *Technic'ly*, you could say that.

Here's how it works:

Assumptions:

Politicians are mostly decent, well-meaning, intelligent people who 
want to do what's right for their citizens;

People are mostly decent, well-meaning people who want to do what's 
best for their children;

People are mostly prepared to settle for an arrangement that is fair 
to everybody, even if they don't get everything they want;

People's perception (and here's the killer) of what is fair is 
biased toward their own interest.

Observation:

An organisation or any kind of corporate structure can have aims 
which are never stated, and are not held by any one person who is 
part of that organisation or body.

The argument:

People vote for the politicians who promise them the most, within 
some envelope of fairness and credibility (my dad claims that at the 
time of their precipitous decline between the wars, the UK Liberals 
campaigned on the slogan 'vote Liberal for free food' - promises are 
not enough).

The politicians then go about putting their policy into practice, 
always bearing in mind that they must work within the constraints of 
their mandate, public opinion, and the next election.  They may have 
some bright ideas that really do benefit the vast majority of the 
population without breaking the bank; if so, they are put into 
practice quickly, all the other parties claim it was their idea all 
along, and the electorate discounts the benefits long before the 
next election, which is fought on the differentials between what's 
offered at the time.

Pretty soon they come up against a decision which will involve 
sacrificing the interests of some for the benefit of others.  What 
do they do?  They make a political calculation.  Will the proposed 
change lead to a situation resulting in defeat for them (other 
things being equal!)?  If the answer is yes, they can go ahead 
anyway, see themselves punished at the polls, and the policy 
defeated.  Or they can pull the policy themselves: same result for 
the policy but they are still in power.  (Of course, it's far more 
complicated than this as there are lots of policy areas going on at 
once which the voters will be affected by, so if you can pull off a 
good war abroad you might risk some unpopular policies at home.  But 
then you've definitely left the zone of 'decent, well-meaning'.)

In essence, politicians are constrained by what they think they can 
get away with in front of the electorate, the key point being that 
this doesn't only apply to selfish and corrupt acts but also 
altruistic ones.

So, the crucial element is the political calculation.  I think, once 
you have got the easy ones out of the way (those which have a clear 
net win or are out of the question), the hard decisions will cluster 
around those which tend to benefit a small majority slightly while 
causing a few to suffer considerably, or a larger minority to suffer 
somewhat.  The majority who benefit will see such decisions as fair 
becasue assumption 4 above causes them to discount the ill-effects 
on others, while perceiving what is in fact a skew in their own 
favour as being a rectification of a slight injustice.  Some of the 
smarter politicians may well realise what is going on, but they are 
largely powerless.  The electoral dynamics paint them into a corner 
with the others.

(Note.  The precise meaning of 'majority' will depend on the system 
of elective representation; where proportional representation is not 
used, a large minority may at times be the beneficiaries rather than 
a small majority.  At other times a larger majority will have to be 
placated.)

Quod Erat Demonstrandum

So, if education is to *support* democracy, rather than merely be a 
by-product as I have described above, perhaps it should concentrate 
on encouraging children to see their own interests impartially.  I 
think such a project would be guaranteed to fail, because it would 
enrage parents.

On a more personal note, I'm broadly with Churchill on the question 
of democracy: I disapprove of it, but the other systems are worse.  
At least in a democracy 51% of the populace oppresses the other 49%, 
whereas in other systems the ratio is much worse.

Of course, I disapprove of the human race, too, so I'm not quite in 
the same corner as Churchill.

David




From melclaros at yahoo.com  Wed Mar  5 14:24:27 2003
From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros)
Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 14:24:27 -0000
Subject: My own education rant ( Re: Reading, Writing, and Multiple Choice)
In-Reply-To: <b43lln+cjmi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b451ar+jtjh@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <bboy_mn at y...> wrote:
> 
> So let me summarize, they consistently keep giving you more money as
> long as you keep proving you don't need it, and as long as you keep
> proving that you do need more money/resource, they keep taking them 
away?

Mel:

Yes, that's it exactly!

bboy:
> 
> Then they raise your taxes so they can afford to continue to do the 
same.

Mel:
But here's where you get it wrong. They won't raise taxes, in fact 
they're trying to cut taxes. Where's this money coming from? God Only 
Knows. "Elsewhere". "The Lottery". No, they're too busy fighting for 
corporate tax breaks (can you say DISNEY?) right now to figure out 
where this "education" money is going to come from so that 
our "education governor" (who just happens to be the brother of 
our "education president") can hand it out as "rewards" to those Hard 
Working High Performing schools!




> 
> Is that a fair assessment?

Yes, it's a fair assesment.

> 
> Again we are stuck with people/politicians who are desparately 
trying
> to modify the symptoms so as to disguise them, because once they 
have
> sufficiently disguised the problem and sufficiently distracted the
> votes, they can comfortably go back to ignoring the problem.
> 
> ...or did I misunderstand?



Nope...You're right on target!

Melpomene who has 2 kids in FL public schools who are being tested AT 
THIS MOMENT!







From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com  Wed Mar  5 15:17:34 2003
From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent)
Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 15:17:34 -0000
Subject: My own education rant ( Re: Reading, Writing, and Multiple Choice)
In-Reply-To: <b43pna+eas8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b454ee+mpek@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Haggridd" 
<jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:
> I keyed on the above lines from Richelle, because it reflects a 
> common mistaken attitude:  that low teacher pay is the reason our 
> students don't learn, and that raising teacher pay will correct 
> the situation.

I'm afraid you're simplifying arguments many others in this country 
have made concerning how to improve student performance.  While much 
more money should be going to the schools, the increase should not 
be going solely to increase teachers' salaries.  Additional funds 
need to be allocated for buildings that are safe and up to code, for 
computers and for increased personnel, among many other things.  
(One thing, however, that I think could be reduced in many districts 
is the number of folks in the bureaucracy at the school boards.)

That said, however, raising teacher pay would, as a start, prevent 
the private sector from leeching good teachers from the schools who 
would otherwise have to choose between being able to follow their 
calling or paying their mortgage.  In places like the Bay Area 
(around San Francisco) real estate is at a premium even for people 
making six figures; workers in jobs like teaching and police work 
need to commute ridiculous distances because the wealthy people they 
serve are unwilling to part with a little more of their income to 
let these folks live in the same community.  They end up feeling 
like domestics who have to live on the "wrong" side of the tracks.  
  
> In the current situation with most school systems in the U.S.-- 
> Louisiana is not alone-- teachers have tenure, and their salaries 
> increase because of longevity irrespective of their abilities.  
> Any increase in teacher pay will be largely absorbed by the 
> current cohort of teachers, be they Mr. Chips or be they barely 
> literate (which, unfortunately, has been the case).

I have only encountered one or two teachers of dubious ability in 
all the years I've had contact with the public schools, both as a 
student and parent.  One was a social studies teacher who was a) the 
department head, and b) about a year from retirement.  Yes, he had 
tenure.  No, we didn't learn a damn thing about the Constitution 
during our senior year (no thanks to him, anyway).  I had an English 
teacher in tenth grade who cared more about reliving her high school 
years and hanging out with cheerleaders (I am not making this up) 
than fairness, but she did know what she was teaching, and in the 
end I performed better in her class because I had something to prove 
to her.  (Every time I turned in a paper or test I said a 
silent, "So there!")  If some districts are in fact hiring 
unqualified people, it may be because it is hard to attract people 
to the area, which probably comes back to money again.  You need an 
adequate budget to attract qualified, motivated people, and if you 
skimp on that, frankly, you deserve what you get.
 
> 1.  Abolish teacher tenure.  Tenure was created to protect freedom 
> of thought in Universities in medieval Europe, where the local 
> sovereign could otherwise behead professors who held disturbing 
> notions.  It has no place in American education at all.  This is 
> doubly true for elementary and secondary education.

This is something that has some merit, but will be fought tooth and 
nail by the unions.  Tenure does bring higher salaries for teachers 
just by dint of their having stuck it out for a number of years, 
regardless of how they performed during those years.  However, if it 
were abolished, experienced teachers would have no advantage at all 
in districts that are strapped for money, where they can save by 
hiring much more inexperienced (and lower-paid) teachers.  Those 
folks lose all job security, much as older managers in business get 
pushed out by youngsters fresh out of business school.  When you've 
been a middle-manager for twenty years, it's rough to be in the job 
market again, especially if you're in your mid-fifties.  You may be 
perfectly qualified, but no one will want to hire you just for your 
abilities and experience if someone with those abilities but no 
experience will accept 33% less salary.  Some companies have learned 
the hard way that they need experienced people around.  My husband 
and several other people were hired to be old, basically (average 
age among them: 40) at a company where the average age was around 
27, because they finally realized that they needed people who'd been 
around.  While tenure should not be the sacred cow it is now, 
perhaps with some tweaking it can serve to be a protection for the 
truly qualified teachers and yet something that escapes the grasp of 
people who've merely stuck it out, biding their time.  On the one 
hand, tenure has been given a bad rap; on the other hand, it's not 
completely undeserved, as there has been abuse.  Don't end tenure; 
end the abuse of tenure.

> 2.  Abolish degrees in education.  Teachers should learn an 
> substantive body of knowledge and get a degree in a "real" , so 
> that they will understand their subject well enough to be creative 
> in communicating it in different ways to their pupils.  Those 
> process course in educational techniques should be a minor for 
> prospective teachers, but the "process" is far less important than 
> the "who, what, when, where and why" of a subject-- any subject.

This is actually a growing trend, but I don't believe that education 
degrees should be abolished.  They may simply fall by the wayside 
eventually as more people acquire degrees in a given field and then 
go through training to teach that subject (there are loads of 
schools offering teacher certification programs to people with 
specific degrees, rather than education degrees).  However, with 
younger children especially, the process is still important.  We 
need elementary teachers to have degrees and training in teaching 
the myriad subjects that must be covered by a first, second or third 
grade teacher.  There is no one liberal arts degree that would 
probably sufficiently prepare a person to teach these young minds in 
an appropriate manner with the simple addition of some student 
teaching and a course or two on pedagogy.  Some of the most 
impressive teachers I've ever met teach these early grades, and the 
interdisciplinary approach they bring to teaching the kids impresses 
me no end.  Future teachers need very specific training in teaching 
young children; otherwise they would need to carry about ten 
different majors in school and then go through teacher training on 
top of that.  

Even with people who have a degree and are pursuing certification, 
they are required (as they should be) to go through student teaching 
and evaluation, and if they are not approved by their supervisor, 
even a perfect score on the certification exam will not make them  
teachers.  Some people should just not be in the classroom.  I found 
that out in college.  Some folks should only do research.  I 
encountered many dreadful teachers in college (as opposed to my 
younger years), where you only need a graduate degree to teach.  
They were teaching their specialty and they were still dreadful, 
having no idea how to reach students, be fair, communicate their 
thoughts or hold discussions that didn't become name-calling 
matches.  I think those professors could have used some education 
courses, frankly.  Their brains contained a lot of knowledge, but it 
sure as hell didn't include how to TEACH.

> 3.  A corollary to #2 is to facilitate certification of 
> individuals who know their subjects, but do not have 
> an "education" degree by exam.  I mean an exam about the subject, 
> not about how to make posters as audio-visual aids.

This is rather snide, don't you think?  Especially as children need 
stimulating environments (see the film "Matilda," especially the 
scene where the teacher hides the lovely posters in her classroom 
from her drill-sergeant headmistress).  And as I noted above, this 
is already taking place.  Why don't you know about this?

> 4.  Retest teachers on their knowledge about the subjects they are 
> teaching periodically, with real sanctions if they do not pass.

I think this is also going on in some places.  Most other districts 
give credit to teachers who pursue additional training.  However, 
there has been some abuse of this sort of credit.  My husband was 
tapped to give a talk about sexual minority youth to local teachers 
during a conference dedicated to diversity.  Only a small fraction 
of the people who signed up for his workshop actually showed up.  I 
have a bad feeling that the fact that these people signed up will be 
on the record, but not that they didn't actually attend, let alone 
learn anything about the subject.  Teachers should be rewarded for 
going out of their way to increase their knowledge both of their 
subjects and of the psychological problems with which young people 
grapple, but there should be accountability.  You shouldn't just be 
able to show that you signed up for a workshop and get credit for 
being there.  This really irked my husband, who prepared for weeks 
for his presentation to FIVE people (thirty signed up).

> 5.  Severely restrict the administrative structure that is soaking 
> up ever more of the education budgets of school systems.  
> Assistant principals, guidance counselors, janitors and even 
> schoolbus drivers partake of the same perquisites that we bestow 
> on teachers, and leave less of the education budget dollar to go 
> to those who actually teach.

Excuse me, but who do you expect to clean the toilets, drive the 
buses and counsel the students?  These folks don't sit around 
twiddling their thumbs all day.  In Philadelphia, the bus aids were 
cut at some schools, and those buses immediately became Lord of the 
Flies on wheels.  It is disingenuous to believe that only teachers 
are necessary to run a school district.  Support personnel keep 
things running smoothly.  Their salaries should be commensurate with 
those working in the private sector.  And a principal needs 
lieutenants; it's a rough job, and I don't know of any vice-
principal who doesn't work 12-hour days (they're not being paid for 
those extra hours, I can guarantee you).  It is the administrative 
structure outside of the schools that needs some overhaul in many 
districts, I believe.  That is where you see plenty of bloated 
staffs which seem largely dedicated to finding ways to justify their 
further employment and have little direct impact on the students--
except negative.  (These are the sort of folks who tend to make 
decisions like cutting bus aids.)

> 6.  Pay raises should be merit-based, not longevity-based.  

As noted above, there should probably be some weight given to 
experience, but perhaps not as much as there is now.  Merit pay is a 
difficult thing to measure in districts where extreme poverty is a 
major factor in the challenges faced by both students and teachers.  
If anything, teachers in impoverished areas should probably be paid 
more than teachers elsewhere, as they have more hurdles to leap over 
on a day-to-day basis.

> 7.  Recognize the NEA for what it is:  a craft union whose first 
> interest is jobs, not education.  Its actions need to be seen in 
> the proper light.  In districts where the students are performing 
> abysmally, it vigorously attacks home-schooling, for example, on 
> the grounds that the parents are not qualified to teach their 
> children.  Physician, heal thyself.

The NEA is unfairly attacked as a "craft union" when it in fact 
often safeguards the rights of teachers and STUDENTS more vigorously 
than their home districts.  The NEA is admittedly left-wing and 
liberal and for this it is constantly under attack.  We need the NEA 
to continue to support diversity training, teaching of real science 
(which is to say, NOT creationism), teachers who sponsor 
Gay/Straight alliances at schools and distribution of birth control 
in the schools, as well as attacking censorship, including 
censorship of the HP books. The NEA is a strong national lobby for 
education and we might not have public schools still if it weren't 
for politicians who feel the need to get their vote.  I'd rather 
elected officials worry about what the NEA thinks of them rather 
than the NRA or the Tobacco Lobby, I'll tell you that.

> 8.  Vouchers, vouchers, vouchers.  Unless there is a the ability 
> for parents to opt out of a failing education system completely, 
> and thereby deny it the funds allotted for that "seat", there will 
> be little incentive to take the vigorous measures that are 
> necessary, especially in light of #'s 1,5,&7 above.  Parochial 
> schools should be eligible to participate in this voucher system, 
> though no funds should go to support religious studies. (Yes, I 
> realize that money is fungible; so what?)

Where do I start?  So what?  I'll tell you what--a little thing 
called the First Amendment, that's what.  I get so tired of people 
thinking vouchers are the be all end all solution for education.  
Vouchers would kill the public schools, pure and simple.  The fact 
is the public schools take the students no one else wants.  All 
private and parochial schools may choose their students.  They don't 
HAVE to take just anyone--and they don't (this doesn't even have 
anything to do with money).  This is just one of the challenges the 
public schools have, but it's also one of the best things about 
them.  They're available to everyone.  Even if you had a voucher in 
hand for the full tuition to a private or parochial school (and 
there's no way a voucher would ever cover a tenth of a private 
school or a third of a parochial school) there's nothing to force 
the school to take the child in question (or to keep their tuition 
at current levels).  You say parents should have the right to opt 
out.  I say those parents have the right to get involved in their 
schools and make a difference.  

As for no funds going to support religious studies, it is 
disingenuous to believe that in any school that is sectarian the 
underlying religious beliefs do not permeate the entire school 
experience--as they should, actually, or what is the point of the 
school having a religious affiliation?  In our local parish school, 
the children in kindergarten color images of the Virgin Mary, which 
are hanging in the corridors of the school.  When I attended a 
Lutheran school briefly as a youngster, we had chapel on Wednesday 
and Friday mornings, a religion class taught by Sister Ruth (I never 
knew before that there were Lutheran nuns, as I'm not Lutheran) and 
a school choir where we sang Christian anthems.  Our reading 
anthology (for English class) had selections from the Bible.  If I'd 
received a voucher to pay for part of my tuition, how would it be 
possible to determine whether it was going for "religious studies?"

Right now, our school district pays for buses to get students at 
parish schools to and from school.  Those students also have the 
opportunity to attend advanced or remedial classes at public 
schools, because such things are not offered at their schools.  If 
we neglect the public schools, we lose a bastion of egalitarian 
opportunity.  Private and parochial schools are not required to take 
everyone, or to teach diversity, or tolerance, or classes for 
advanced students, or remedial students.  They are not required to 
keep students who step one toe out of line or wear the wrong 
uniform.  Public schools already pick up the slack in this way; 
vouchers would truly make public schools the last resort of anyone 
looking for a school for their kids, and the only option for someone 
who wants a truly non-sectarian education for their kids.  

Even at our local Friends' schools, the pacifism taught there was 
considered to be inadequate for the local Mennonite community, which 
started its own high school in our neighborhood to rectify the 
situation (instead of sending their kids to boarding school in 
Lancaster County, which they used to do).  Don't think there's a 
difference in the brand of pacifism practiced by Quakers and 
Mennonites?  Think again.  This is another example of a religious 
tenet that permeates all aspects of school life, which cannot be 
extracted from the curriculum when vouchers are given to students, 
so that it can be said that public money is not going to pay 
for 'religious studies.'  Everything at a sectarian school can, in 
the long run, be considered 'religious studies' if the school is 
truly a credit to the religious tradition in question.
 
--Barb

http://www.iwgonline.org
 




From julia at thequiltbug.com  Wed Mar  5 16:01:09 2003
From: julia at thequiltbug.com (Calliope)
Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 08:01:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: My own education rant
Message-ID: <20030305080111.23039.h013.c011.wm@mail.thequiltbug.com.criticalpath.net>

First of all, **applause** for you, Barb.  I enjoyed reading this post almost as
much as the PS Trilogy.  :)  You must be reading my mind - thank you for saying
what was right on the tip of my tongue (and doing it more eloquently than I
would have, in any case.)

Haggrid:? 
> In the current situation with most school systems in the U.S.-- 
> Louisiana is not alone-- teachers have tenure, 

me:

Just so you know, in my state (SC) there is NO tenure.  There is NO teachers'
union.  We have no rights, no advocate for us, and we are at the mercy of the
administration and legislature.  We don't dare speak up for fear of retribution.


Barb said:
>>If some districts are in fact hiring 
unqualified people, it may be because it is hard to attract people 
to the area, which probably comes back to money again.? You need an 
adequate budget to attract qualified, motivated people, and if you 
skimp on that, frankly, you deserve what you get.

me:

Amen.  

Haggrid said:
> 2.? Abolish degrees in education.? Teachers should learn an 
> substantive body of knowledge and get a degree in a "real" , so 
> that they will understand their subject well enough to be creative 
> in communicating it in different ways to their pupils.

me:

That's where teachers like Snape come from.  (Yes, I know he's fictional but
just to use a teacher we all know.)  People who are absolute geniuses in their
field, brilliant people, but totally lacking in "people skills".  And trust me,
you need lots of people skills to get anything done in the classroom.  I had
many, many profs. like that in college, and they're very hard to learn from. 
However, I do feel that while getting my music education degree, I spent too
much time in the education building and not enough in the music building, and
because I had so many ed. classes to take, certain interesting musical electives
had to be given up. Plus, many of the education classes were "generic", lumping
music, English, science, etc. majors together, and the processes needed to teach
these subjects are *vastly* different. This is purely the fault of the
legislature, as they decide what the requirements are to be certified to teach,
and the universities arrange their curriculums accordingly.  

Barb said:
>>Even with people who have a degree and are pursuing certification, 
they are required (as they should be) to go through student teaching 
and evaluation, 

me: 

I totally agree. I would say that at least 40% of the skills and knowledge I use
on a day to day basis I acquired in the last four months of my college career,
when I did my internship (I was very fortunate to have an excellent mentor
teacher to work with.)  I shudder to think what my teaching would be like if I
had not been so fortunate as to work with a great teacher; some of my friends
had horrible internship experiences and were totally lost when they got their
first jobs, as college had not prepared us sufficiently (see above on too many
ed. classes and not enough subject classes.)

Barb:
and if they are not approved by their supervisor, 
even a perfect score on the certification exam will not make them? 
teachers.? Some people should just not be in the classroom.? 

me:

This is why I despise standardized tests with the passion of a thousand blazing
suns.  Tests do NOT prove what you are capable of doing.  They only prove that
you remembered useless facts long enough to regurgitate them onto a scan sheet.

Barb:
They were teaching their specialty and they were still dreadful, 
having no idea how to reach students, be fair, communicate their 
thoughts or hold discussions that didn't become name-calling 
matches.? I think those professors could have used some education 
courses, frankly.? Their brains contained a lot of knowledge, but it 
sure as hell didn't include how to TEACH.

me:
Again, that's where we get the Snape-like teachers from.

Haggrid:
> 3.? A corollary to #2 is to facilitate certification of 
> individuals who know their subjects, but do not have 
> an "education" degree by exam.? I mean an exam about the subject, 
> not about how to make posters as audio-visual aids.

me:

I take serious offense to this.  I never made a single poster in my ENTIRE
college career, and no one ever tested me on my ability to do so.  However, if
you don't know how to use visual aids properly, and think that a textbook and
worksheet is the only way to get your point across, you would not be a very
effective teacher.  My two knuts.

Haggrid:
> 4.? Retest teachers on their knowledge about the subjects they are 
> teaching periodically, with real sanctions if they do not pass.

me:
And who, precisely, is going to pay for this?  I can barely afford to take the
required classes for re-certification as it is, since our lovely government sees
fit to pay peanuts!  Do you have any idea how expensive testing is?  States
spend MILLIONS of dollars on standardized testing.  These testing companies are
making ridiculous amounts of money.  

Haggrid:
> 5.? Severely restrict the administrative structure that is soaking 
> up ever more of the education budgets of school systems.? 
> Assistant principals, guidance counselors, janitors and even 
> schoolbus drivers partake of the same perquisites that we bestow 
> on teachers, and leave less of the education budget dollar to go 
> to those who actually teach.

Barb:
Excuse me, but who do you expect to clean the toilets, drive the 
buses and counsel the students?? 

It is disingenuous to believe that only teachers 
are necessary to run a school district.? Support personnel keep 
things running smoothly.? 

me:

Thank you, Barb.  If I had to clean the toilets and drive the buses on top of
everything else, I'd quit.  We have a hard enough time getting janitors and bus
drivers as it is.  I admire bus drivers - I have a temper like Ron Weasley's and
I would never be able to do it - I'd be fired.  Kids in a classroom and kids on
a bus are two totally different things.


Haggrid:
> 6.? Pay raises should be merit-based, not longevity-based.? 

Barb:
As noted above, there should probably be some weight given to 
experience, but perhaps not as much as there is now.? Merit pay is a 
difficult thing to measure in districts where extreme poverty is a 
major factor in the challenges faced by both students and teachers.? 
If anything, teachers in impoverished areas should probably be paid 
more than teachers elsewhere, as they have more hurdles to leap over 
on a day-to-day basis.

me:
And here is another problem:  not every subject is assesed on a standardized
test, nor should it be.  For goodness' sake, test administration takes up two
whole weeks of school as it is!  So what happens to the teachers whose subjects
are not tested like this?  Do we not get raises?  And if we are judged on some
other subjective criteria, there is too much room for retaliatory action (you
didn't do this the way I wanted, therefore you don't get a raise, because I said
so).

Another thing is some kids just plain don't CARE about the test, either because
they don't see the point (can't say I blame them), it's too confusing (I've seen
many standardized tests with errors, and they're not allowed to ask questions
for fear of cheating) or their parents just don't place an emphasis on school,
so they stayed up till three am the night before and fell asleep on top of their
test.  Is that the teachers' fault?  I think not.

Haggrid:
> 8.? Vouchers, vouchers, vouchers.? Unless there is a the ability 
> for parents to opt out of a failing education system completely, 
> and thereby deny it the funds allotted for that "seat", there will 
> be little incentive to take the vigorous measures that are 
> necessary, especially in light of #'s 1,5,&7 above.? Parochial 
> schools should be eligible to participate in this voucher system, 
> though no funds should go to support religious studies. (Yes, I 
> realize that money is fungible; so what?)

Barb:
I get so tired of people 
thinking vouchers are the be all end all solution for education.? 
Vouchers would kill the public schools, pure and simple.? The fact 
is the public schools take the students no one else wants.? All 
private and parochial schools may choose their students.? They don't 
HAVE to take just anyone--and they don't (this doesn't even have 
anything to do with money).? 

me:  
Yes, this is something that no one seems to realize.  We teach all the kids who
come through our doors, no matter where they come from, what their attitude is,
or whether or not they want to be there.  I'm sure a school who is filled with
students who want to learn, whose parents want them to be there and care about
their schooling, and who know that they can and will be kicked out if they don't
toe the line, will do well on a standardized test.  And then guess who is stuck
(for lack of a better word) with the rest?  You got it.

Then when the students who ran away from the system grow up and have to
live/work in a society with the people who were left behind because their
parents either didn't care, or cared enough to try to stick it out - then what
happens?  I don't think I want to know.

Running away from problems doesn't fix them.

Calliope

"The Last Time" Chapter 21 is up! 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Calliopes_fics/
See also:
http://www.thedarkarts.org/authorLinks/Calliope/
http://www.riddikulus.org/authorLinks/Calliope/



From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Wed Mar  5 16:05:58 2003
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 16:05:58 -0000
Subject: The Latest Thing in Book-Banning 
Message-ID: <b45796+a2gb@eGroups.com>

The latest in book-banning: 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/2818809.stm

     - CMC


First, they came for the first little pig, but I did nothing because 
I didn't live in a house of made of straw. Next they came for the 
second little pig, but I did nothing because I didn't live in a house 
made of sticks. Then they came for the third little pig, but I did 
nothing because I didn't live in a house made of bricks. So when they 
came for the little piggies who went to market, I was forced to run 
wee-wee-wee-wee all the way home. 





From lupinesque at yahoo.com  Wed Mar  5 17:02:00 2003
From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z)
Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 17:02:00 -0000
Subject: The Latest Thing in Book-Banning
In-Reply-To: <b45796+a2gb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b45ai8+v5rr@eGroups.com>

CMC reported:

> The latest in book-banning: 
> 
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/2818809.stm

Well, that one is just bizarre.  Aside from all other questions, did 
anyone actually *ask* any Muslims whether they found stories about 
pigs offensive?  Muslims aren't allowed to eat pigs or touch them.  
There is no prohibition against their talking about them.

Amy
wondering why anyone bothers to write fiction when truth is so much 
more improbable and entertaining




From gwendolyngrace at yahoo.com  Wed Mar  5 19:44:48 2003
From: gwendolyngrace at yahoo.com (Gwen)
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 11:44:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: 10 days left...
Message-ID: <20030305194448.94466.qmail@web13506.mail.yahoo.com>

Beware the Ides of March...because the price for
Nimbus is rising. 

Nimbus - 2003 reminds you that you have 10 days left
for the current registration rate of $129.75 (that's
ninety nine and three quarters dollars). On March 16
(12:01 am US Mountain Standard Time), the price for
registration will climb to $149.75. 

The good news is that you can pay via PayPal if you
prefer. The benefit for you is, you won't have to
overnight a check to us, in order to pay by the 15th. 
  
There is an additional fee of $2.25, to cover PayPal
and administrative bank transfer expenses, so
<b>please</b> add that on to your total from the
registration page, when you enter the information via
PayPal. 
  
If you have any questions, please email
PayPal at hp2003.org. 
  
To pay with PayPal, register here:
http://www.hp2003.org/nimbusregister.html
  
After you've registered, you can select the link from
the Payment Page to PayPal, and pay for it that way.
Don't forget to add the $2.25 processing fee if you do
choose PayPal. 

You can also pay directly at the registration site
through a major credit card, i.e., Mastercard/Visa,
Discover, or American Express.


__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/



From melclaros at yahoo.com  Wed Mar  5 21:25:10 2003
From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros)
Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 21:25:10 -0000
Subject: My own education rant ( Re: Reading, Writing, and Multiple Choice)
In-Reply-To: <b43pna+eas8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b45pvm+5blq@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Haggridd" 
<jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:
.
> 
> 8.  Vouchers, vouchers, vouchers.  Unless there is a the ability 
for  parents to opt out of a failing education system completely, and 
> thereby deny it the funds allotted for that "seat", there will be 
> little incentive to take the vigorous measures that are necessary, 
> especially in light of #'s 1,5,&7 above.  Parochial schools should 
be  eligible to participate in this voucher system, though no funds 
> should go to support religious studies. (Yes, I realize that money 
is fungible; so what?)
> 


Spoken (well written) like someone who has no idea what vouchers are 
or how they work. I defer to Barb's brilliant post as to the type of 
students who are considered acceptable by private schools, and the 
religious studies issue, but I suggest *you* do some more research on 
your own. 
Private schools are required to accept the state voucher as *full 
tuition*. Just how many schools do you think are going to accept a 
voucher for say $1,200 to cover $5,000 - $7,000 tuition? Not many I 
can tell you that right now. Here in Florida, where we have a voucher 
program, there are schools that *will* take them being set up in  
storefronts and private homes soley for the purpose of cashing state 
vouchers. Children are already being warehoused and our voucher 
program is in its infancy. These schools are not required to test 
their students. (How ironic is THAT? The public schools live and die 
by the state test, but the state is handing out checks to private 
schools and giving them Carte Blanche with it! No accountability 
requested!) When the money runs out, the children are shipped back to 
the local public school, midway through the year, woefully behind and 
TA-DA! they are then expected to pass the sacred FCAT which will 
grade the school the children haven't even been attending for most of 
the year! The school's grade drops, more students become eligible for 
vouchers based on that grade and the vicious circle begins again. 
Now you tell me. Who are the losers here? 
That's right.
The CHILDREN.


Melpomene (who *might* consider giving a voucher to a private school 
when she sees that private school's test scores printed in the 
newspaper right next to all the public school scores!)





From julia at thequiltbug.com  Wed Mar  5 21:33:59 2003
From: julia at thequiltbug.com (Calliope)
Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 13:33:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: My own education rant
Message-ID: <20030305133400.1970.h014.c011.wm@mail.thequiltbug.com.criticalpath.net>

On Wed, 05 Mar 2003 13:30:21 -0800 (PST), "melclaros" wrote:
>>Children are already being warehoused and our voucher 
program is in its infancy. These schools are not required to test 
their students. (How ironic is THAT? The public schools live and die 
by the state test, but the state is handing out checks to private 
schools and giving them Carte Blanche with it! No accountability 
requested!) When the money runs out, the children are shipped back to 
the local public school, midway through the year, woefully behind and 
TA-DA! they are then expected to pass the sacred FCAT which will 
grade the school the children haven't even been attending for most of 
the year! The school's grade drops, more students become eligible for 
vouchers based on that grade and the vicious circle begins again. 

Me:

I am sitting here with my eyes falling out in total shock.  You have GOT to be
kidding me!  Please tell me you are making this up.  Please, please, please. 
They're getting state money, but don't have to abide by state regulations?  I
think I'm going to be sick.  This is the most ludicrous thing I've ever heard. 
I thought *my* state was the only one making a bunch of dumb rules, but I see
that's not so.  Geez.

Calliope 

"The Last Time" Chapter 21 is up! 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Calliopes_fics/
See also:
http://www.thedarkarts.org/authorLinks/Calliope/
http://www.riddikulus.org/authorLinks/Calliope/



From rvotaw at i-55.com  Wed Mar  5 22:29:31 2003
From: rvotaw at i-55.com (rvotaw at i-55.com)
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 16:29:31 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] My own education rant ( Re: Reading, Writing, and Multiple Choice)
Message-ID: <7724195.1046903371363.JavaMail.root@webmail.i-55.com>

Before I start, let me emphasize that I've been taking deep breaths all day 
before sitting down to do this.  So if I haven't cooled off by now it's through 
no fault of my own.

Haggridd wrote:

> favorite metaphor). I keyed on the above lines from Richelle, 
> because it reflects a common mistaken attitude: that low teacher pay 
> is the reason our students don't learn, and that raising teacher pay 
> will correct the situation.

Oh, lovely, I see we're once again operating under the assumption that teachers 
are at fault and obviously don't know what's best for the school system.  
Excuse me, but it's true.  No, more pay doesn't make you a better teacher.  But 
better pay does keep good teachers in the state rather than them moving to 
neighboring states (or across the country).  If you don't believe me, visit one 
of the education job fairs at a university in Louisiana.  Other states with 
teacher shortages target Louisiana because of the low teacher pay.  I graduated 
with people who now teach in Alaska, California, Texas, etc.  When I graduated 
school systems in California were paying teachers to fly to California for 
extensive interviews.  

> 2. Abolish degrees in education. Teachers should learn an <BR>
> substantive body of knowledge and get a degree in a "real" , so 
that <BR>
> they will understand their subject well enough to be creative in <BR>
> communicating it in different ways to their pupils. Those process <BR>
> course in educational techniques should be a minor for prospective <BR>
> teachers, but the "process" is far less important than the 
"who, <BR>
> what, when, where and why" of a subject-- any subject.<BR>

As someone else already said, that's where teachers like Snape come from.  I've 
had quite a number of college professors who are brilliant chemists, but don't 
have a clue how to express what they know and explain it to students.  For that 
matter, perhaps you are not familiar with a basic curriculum included in a 
degree in Elementary Education?

A sampling of classes I took (naturally, I can't remember all of them!):

Organic Chemistry
Botany
Zoology
English Literature
American Literature
College Algebra
Statistics
Music Appreciation
Health Science
Nutrition
American History
World History
Louisiana History
Physical Geography

I teach first grade, do I use any of these?  Not a one.  Did they help me learn 
to teach?  No.  Could I teach as effectively as I do with only those topics and 
not the additional education courses?  Not a chance.

> 3. A corollary to #2 is to facilitate certification of individuals <BR>
> who know their subjects, but do not have an "education" degree by 
<BR>
> exam. I mean an exam about the subject, not about how to make <BR>
> posters as audio-visual aids.<BR>

Right.  That's where the college professors come from.  The ones that are 
brilliant, but can't genuinely teach.  They can present information, but not 
*teach* information.  There is a difference.

> 4. Retest teachers on their knowledge about the subjects they are <BR>
> teaching periodically, with real sanctions if they do not pass.<BR>

Oh, good.  I'll love that test.  "What is a noun?"  "Find the noun in this 
sentence: The cat is brown."  "2+7=__"  I'll ace that test.  How do I sign up?

> 6. Pay raises should be merit-based, not longevity-based. <BR>

Really?  Name a field of expertise which doesn't increase pay with experience.  
Anyone who works at McDonald's for 6 months gets a raise.  Wal-Mart gives their 
employees a raise every year at least.  So you're telling me I shouldn't get a 
raise next year unless I can prove that my students learned more than the other 
teachers students?  And how do you plan to measure who deserves a pay raise and 
who doesn't?  Student test scores?  So, how do my 14 students from single 
parent families with low incomes, half the time no phone connected, fairly 
common to have no electricity, some don't even have running water.  They barely 
have enough money for clothes (some wouldn't have suitable clothes except for 
uniform vouchers from the school and various charities).  Clothes are rarely 
washed every week, since they don't have washer/dryer and the washateria is 
expensive when toothpaste is considered a luxury.  All of my students are on 
the free breakfast and lunch program.  There are no books in the home.  Parents 
work nights, no one is there to help with homework.

So sure, go ahead, take my students and compare them to the children who are 
read to every night, who have clean clothes to wear, who actually brush their 
teeth twice a day, whose parents sit down and spend an hour going over homework 
every day and so on.  

Shall we compare the scores of my students with those just described?  Does 
that measure my ability to teach compared to the teacher who has the other 
class?

I won't even get into vouchers and all that, I've gone on long enough.  (taking 
more deep breaths)

Richelle

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Wed Mar  5 22:49:54 2003
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 22:49:54 -0000
Subject: My own education rant ( Re: Reading, Writing, and Multiple Choice)
In-Reply-To: <b454ee+mpek@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b45uuj+papp@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "psychic_serpent" 
<psychic_serpent at y...> wrote:


Barb,
Your responses were reasoned and moderate--except in your reflex 
defense of the NEA.  If you will permit, I will delete your quotes of 
my original points for brevity's sake, and answer yours in turn.

> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Haggridd" 
> <jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:
> > I keyed on the above lines from Richelle, because it reflects a 
> > common mistaken attitude:  that low teacher pay is the reason our 
> > students don't learn, and that raising teacher pay will correct 
> > the situation.
> 
> I'm afraid you're simplifying arguments many others in this country 
> have made concerning how to improve student performance.  While 
much 
> more money should be going to the schools, the increase should not 
> be going solely to increase teachers' salaries.  Additional funds 
> need to be allocated for buildings that are safe and up to code, 
for 
> computers and for increased personnel, among many other things.

Renovation of buildings to code:  agreed
Computers: agreed
Increased personnel:  Not if thery are the personnel about which I 
posted my original rant.  The class size at my elementary school was 
60 students throughout all eight years.  I realize that this is 
anecdotal, but theses kids learned just fine.
  
> (One thing, however, that I think could be reduced in many 
districts 
> is the number of folks in the bureaucracy at the school boards.)
>

Agreed
 
> That said, however, raising teacher pay would, as a start, prevent 
> the private sector from leeching good teachers from the schools who 
> would otherwise have to choose between being able to follow their 
> calling or paying their mortgage.  In places like the Bay Area 
> (around San Francisco) real estate is at a premium even for people 
> making six figures; workers in jobs like teaching and police work 
> need to commute ridiculous distances because the wealthy people 
they 
> serve are unwilling to part with a little more of their income to 
> let these folks live in the same community.  They end up feeling 
> like domestics who have to live on the "wrong" side of the tracks.  
>

After implementing the reforms I suggested, agreed.  Your 
characterization of the taxpayers seems a little snide in its own 
right.  The quality of schools has historically been a prime factor 
in choosing where to live, irrespective of the property taxes quality 
schools may require.
   
> > In the current situation with most school systems in the U.S.-- 
> > Louisiana is not alone-- teachers have tenure, and their salaries 
> > increase because of longevity irrespective of their abilities.  
> > Any increase in teacher pay will be largely absorbed by the 
> > current cohort of teachers, be they Mr. Chips or be they barely 
> > literate (which, unfortunately, has been the case).
> 
> I have only encountered one or two teachers of dubious ability in 
> all the years I've had contact with the public schools, both as a 
> student and parent.  One was a social studies teacher who was a) 
the 
> department head, and b) about a year from retirement.  Yes, he had 
> tenure.  No, we didn't learn a damn thing about the Constitution 
> during our senior year (no thanks to him, anyway).  I had an 
English 
> teacher in tenth grade who cared more about reliving her high 
school 
> years and hanging out with cheerleaders (I am not making this up) 
> than fairness, but she did know what she was teaching, and in the 
> end I performed better in her class because I had something to 
prove 
> to her.  (Every time I turned in a paper or test I said a 
> silent, "So there!")  If some districts are in fact hiring 
> unqualified people, it may be because it is hard to attract people 
> to the area, which probably comes back to money again.  You need an 
> adequate budget to attract qualified, motivated people, and if you 
> skimp on that, frankly, you deserve what you get.
> 


You have been fortunate in your teachers.  As long as we are being 
anecdotal, let me share that my experience has been otherwise.   I do 
admit, that there is a "chicken/egg" problem here.  You won't get 
those tax resources you want if the status quo continues, however.
  
> > 1.  
> This is something that has some merit, but will be fought tooth and 
> nail by the unions. 

You have made my point #7.

> Tenure does bring higher salaries for teachers 
> just by dint of their having stuck it out for a number of years, 
> regardless of how they performed during those years.  However, if 
it 
> were abolished, experienced teachers would have no advantage at all 
> in districts that are strapped for money, where they can save by 
> hiring much more inexperienced (and lower-paid) teachers.  Those 
> folks lose all job security, much as older managers in business get 
> pushed out by youngsters fresh out of business school.  When you've 
> been a middle-manager for twenty years, it's rough to be in the job 
> market again, especially if you're in your mid-fifties.  You may be 
> perfectly qualified, but no one will want to hire you just for your 
> abilities and experience if someone with those abilities but no 
> experience will accept 33% less salary.  Some companies have 
learned 
> the hard way that they need experienced people around.  My husband 
> and several other people were hired to be old, basically (average 
> age among them: 40) at a company where the average age was around 
> 27, because they finally realized that they needed people who'd 
been 
> around.  While tenure should not be the sacred cow it is now, 
> perhaps with some tweaking it can serve to be a protection for the 
> truly qualified teachers and yet something that escapes the grasp 
of 
> people who've merely stuck it out, biding their time.  On the one 
> hand, tenure has been given a bad rap; on the other hand, it's not 
> completely undeserved, as there has been abuse.  Don't end tenure; 
> end the abuse of tenure.
>

Why should teachers have more job security than others in the 
workforce?  If the more experienced teachers cannot demonstrate that 
their experience actually makes for better teaching, then why should 
they not compete with new hires?  This might free up some funds to 
increase the compensation of the better teachers.
 
  
> > 2.  Abolish degrees in education. 

> 
> This is actually a growing trend, but I don't believe that 
education 
> degrees should be abolished.  They may simply fall by the wayside 
> eventually as more people acquire degrees in a given field and then 
> go through training to teach that subject (there are loads of 
> schools offering teacher certification programs to people with 
> specific degrees, rather than education degrees).  

In Louisiana, this requires a special Masters degree-- In Education.  
This doesn't address point #2.

> However, with 
> younger children especially, the process is still important.  We 
> need elementary teachers to have degrees and training in teaching 
> the myriad subjects that must be covered by a first, second or 
third 
> grade teacher.  There is no one liberal arts degree that would 
> probably sufficiently prepare a person to teach these young minds 
in 
> an appropriate manner with the simple addition of some student 
> teaching and a course or two on pedagogy.  Some of the most 
> impressive teachers I've ever met teach these early grades, and the 
> interdisciplinary approach they bring to teaching the kids 
impresses 
> me no end.  Future teachers need very specific training in teaching 
> young children; otherwise they would need to carry about ten 
> different majors in school and then go through teacher training on 
> top of that.  
> 

I have suggested that teachers minor in education courses myself. I 
did not suggest that they be abolished, only the degree program in 
education process.

 
> Even with people who have a degree and are pursuing certification, 
> they are required (as they should be) to go through student 
teaching 
> and evaluation, and if they are not approved by their supervisor, 
> even a perfect score on the certification exam will not make them  
> teachers.  Some people should just not be in the classroom.  I 
found 
> that out in college.  Some folks should only do research.  I 
> encountered many dreadful teachers in college (as opposed to my 
> younger years), where you only need a graduate degree to teach.  
> They were teaching their specialty and they were still dreadful, 
> having no idea how to reach students, be fair, communicate their 
> thoughts or hold discussions that didn't become name-calling 
> matches.  I think those professors could have used some education 
> courses, frankly.  Their brains contained a lot of knowledge, but 
it 
> sure as hell didn't include how to TEACH.
> 

Apples and oranges...
The college system is not analogous.  There, Grad students are 
required to teach in pursuit of their doctorates, and Professors are 
rewarded for research.  This situation does not obtain in primary and 
secondary eduaction.

> > 3.  A corollary to #2 is to facilitate certification of 
> > individuals who know their subjects, but do not have 
> > an "education" degree by exam.  I mean an exam about the subject, 
> > not about how to make posters as audio-visual aids.
> 
> This is rather snide, don't you think?  Especially as children need 
> stimulating environments (see the film "Matilda," especially the 
> scene where the teacher hides the lovely posters in her classroom 
> from her drill-sergeant headmistress).  And as I noted above, this 
> is already taking place.  Why don't you know about this?
>

As with your comment about the taxpayers above, we both are less than 
angelic.  I apologize for the tone of my remark, if not the 
substance.  A teacher who really knows and loves the subject at hand 
is the most stimulating environment for a student, Hollywood 
notwithstanding.

> > 4.  Retest teachers on their knowledge about the subjects they 
are 
> > teaching periodically, with real sanctions if they do not pass.
> 
> I think this is also going on in some places.  Most other districts 
> give credit to teachers who pursue additional training.  However, 
> there has been some abuse of this sort of credit.  My husband was 
> tapped to give a talk about sexual minority youth to local teachers 
> during a conference dedicated to diversity.  Only a small fraction 
> of the people who signed up for his workshop actually showed up.  I 
> have a bad feeling that the fact that these people signed up will 
be 
> on the record, but not that they didn't actually attend, let alone 
> learn anything about the subject.  Teachers should be rewarded for 
> going out of their way to increase their knowledge both of their 
> subjects and of the psychological problems with which young people 
> grapple, but there should be accountability.  You shouldn't just be 
> able to show that you signed up for a workshop and get credit for 
> being there.  This really irked my husband, who prepared for weeks 
> for his presentation to FIVE people (thirty signed up).
>

Your response has nothing to do with my point.  Phantom Continuing 
Education courses have nothing to do with retesting teachers and 
holding them to the results.  Phantom courses will not help them pass 
such a test.


> > 5.  
> 
> Excuse me, but who do you expect to clean the toilets, drive the 
> buses and counsel the students?  These folks don't sit around 
> twiddling their thumbs all day.  In Philadelphia, the bus aids were 
> cut at some schools, and those buses immediately became Lord of the 
> Flies on wheels.  It is disingenuous to believe that only teachers 
> are necessary to run a school district.  Support personnel keep 
> things running smoothly.  Their salaries should be commensurate 
with 
> those working in the private sector.  And a principal needs 
> lieutenants; it's a rough job, and I don't know of any vice-
> principal who doesn't work 12-hour days (they're not being paid for 
> those extra hours, I can guarantee you).  It is the administrative 
> structure outside of the schools that needs some overhaul in many 
> districts, I believe.  That is where you see plenty of bloated 
> staffs which seem largely dedicated to finding ways to justify 
their 
> further employment and have little direct impact on the students--
> except negative.  (These are the sort of folks who tend to make 
> decisions like cutting bus aids.)
>

Why don't we implement those overhauls on which we do agree, and take 
stock after that?


> > 6.  Pay raises should be merit-based, not longevity-based.  
> 
> As noted above, there should probably be some weight given to 
> experience, but perhaps not as much as there is now.  Merit pay is 
a 
> difficult thing to measure in districts where extreme poverty is a 
> major factor in the challenges faced by both students and 
teachers.  
> If anything, teachers in impoverished areas should probably be paid 
> more than teachers elsewhere, as they have more hurdles to leap 
over 
> on a day-to-day basis.
>

I simply do not accept poverty as an excuse for poor teaching.  
Experience with vouchers in poor areas belies that claim.
 
> > 7.  Recognize the NEA for what it is:  a craft union whose first 
> > interest is jobs, not education.  Its actions need to be seen in 
> > the proper light.  In districts where the students are performing 
> > abysmally, it vigorously attacks home-schooling, for example, on 
> > the grounds that the parents are not qualified to teach their 
> > children.  Physician, heal thyself.
> 
> The NEA is unfairly attacked as a "craft union" when it in fact 
> often safeguards the rights of teachers and STUDENTS more 
vigorously 
> than their home districts.  The NEA is admittedly left-wing and 
> liberal and for this it is constantly under attack.  We need the 
NEA 
> to continue to support diversity training, teaching of real science 
> (which is to say, NOT creationism), teachers who sponsor 
> Gay/Straight alliances at schools and distribution of birth control 
> in the schools, as well as attacking censorship, including 
> censorship of the HP books. The NEA is a strong national lobby for 
> education and we might not have public schools still if it weren't 
> for politicians who feel the need to get their vote.  I'd rather 
> elected officials worry about what the NEA thinks of them rather 
> than the NRA or the Tobacco Lobby, I'll tell you that.
>

Ah.. I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one.  Passions 
are rising dangerously on both sides.  Okay?  
 
> > 8.  Vouchers, vouchers, vouchers.  
> 
> Where do I start?  So what?  I'll tell you what--a little thing 
> called the First Amendment, that's what. 

The first amendment to the U.S. Constitution does not preclude 
purchasing educational services from private sources.  
The "restriction of funds to a specific purpose" argument has been 
used by people from all sides of the political spectrum to justify 
spending the money, from Voucher advocates to those who want to fund 
Planned Parenthood only for those services that do not include 
abortion.  Both sides know that money is fungible.

> I get so tired of people 
> thinking vouchers are the be all end all solution for education.  
> Vouchers would kill the public schools, pure and simple.  The fact 
> is the public schools take the students no one else wants.  All 
> private and parochial schools may choose their students. 

I am equally tired of that same old song.  Monopolies lead to 
inefficiencies in many other arenas than in education.  The solution 
is to break the monopoly, not make it stronger.  Did you ever 
consider that poor teachers might have made that unfortunate kid into 
a student that no one else wants?

> They don't 
> HAVE to take just anyone--and they don't (this doesn't even have 
> anything to do with money).  This is just one of the challenges the 
> public schools have, but it's also one of the best things about 
> them.  They're available to everyone.  Even if you had a voucher in 
> hand for the full tuition to a private or parochial school (and 
> there's no way a voucher would ever cover a tenth of a private 
> school or a third of a parochial school) 

The most inefficient system for educating studnets is the current 
publi system.  In response to the outside competitition, the public 
system will either get better, obviating the need for the vouchers, 
or shrink, as it should if it doesn't do the job that others can do.

> there's nothing to force 
> the school to take the child in question (or to keep their tuition 
> at current levels).  You say parents should have the right to opt 
> out.  I say those parents have the right to get involved in their 
> schools and make a difference.  
> 

Again, anecdotally, I know of many parents frustrated at the 
entrenched system (read NEA) that makes PTA meetings powerless.

> As for no funds going to support religious studies, it is 
> disingenuous to believe that in any school that is sectarian the 
> underlying religious beliefs do not permeate the entire school 
> experience--as they should, actually, or what is the point of the 
> school having a religious affiliation?  In our local parish school, 
> the children in kindergarten color images of the Virgin Mary, which 
> are hanging in the corridors of the school.  When I attended a 
> Lutheran school briefly as a youngster, we had chapel on Wednesday 
> and Friday mornings, a religion class taught by Sister Ruth (I 
never 
> knew before that there were Lutheran nuns, as I'm not Lutheran) and 
> a school choir where we sang Christian anthems.  Our reading 
> anthology (for English class) had selections from the Bible.  If 
I'd 
> received a voucher to pay for part of my tuition, how would it be 
> possible to determine whether it was going for "religious studies?"
> 

See above argument re NARAL and abortion funding.


> Right now, our school district pays for buses to get students at 
> parish schools to and from school.  Those students also have the 
> opportunity to attend advanced or remedial classes at public 
> schools, because such things are not offered at their schools.  If 
> we neglect the public schools, we lose a bastion of egalitarian 
> opportunity.  Private and parochial schools are not required to 
take 
> everyone, or to teach diversity, or tolerance, or classes for 
> advanced students, or remedial students.  They are not required to 
> keep students who step one toe out of line or wear the wrong 
> uniform.  Public schools already pick up the slack in this way; 
> vouchers would truly make public schools the last resort of anyone 
> looking for a school for their kids, and the only option for 
someone 
> who wants a truly non-sectarian education for their kids.  
>

Parents would not be forced to send their kids to private schools.  
They still have the opportunity to have their children attend public 
schools, with all the many advantages you describe...

The truly egalitarian thing would be to empower poor parents to have 
the same options as more affluent parents.  In the instances where 
this choice has been implemented, Parentes have "voted with their 
feet" time and time again.
 
Don't get me wrong.   I want to increase teacher pay by a great deal, 
by over 100% in most cases.  I cannot justify doing this for the 
present system.

Haggridd/John






From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Wed Mar  5 23:07:27 2003
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 23:07:27 -0000
Subject: Education in a democracy: rationalised rant
In-Reply-To: <b44t6f+pv9b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b45vvf+os9f@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "David" <dfrankiswork at n...> 
wrote:
> I sneered:
> 
> > > Surely one of the main aims of education policy in a democracy 
> is to maintain an underclass to make the rest feel they are doing 
> well?
> 
> Haggridd quivered:
>

"Quivered"?  Hardly, sir.  Riposted, explained, maintained, declaimed-
- even pontificated-- but "quivered"?  Not I.

 
> > The theory is that an educated citizenry will be an educated 
> > electorate.  It seems that a person's perspective on democracy is 
> > affected by that person's allegiance to some other form of 
> > governance.  I shudder to speculate as to which that might be.
> 
> That person?  Who?  Oh, you mean *me*!  **Turns pink with 
> pleasure**  High praise indeed!  Who wants governance anyway?
> 
> (Do you mind if I don't start shouting 'I demand satisfaction!  
Name 
> your seconds!  Have at thee, varlet!'?  I would probably lose 
> interest half-way through the duel and walk away, adversely 
> affecting the entertainment value for spectators.)
> 

Weltanschauungen at twenty paces!  Your choice of weapons obviously 
has been that crabbed cynical offhand sneer you do so well you must 
have practiced long abd hard at it.  On the other hand, I am armed 
only with Truth, Justice, and the American way! (with a pinch of salt)

> Yeah, well, technic'ly, an educated citizenry will be an educated 
> electorate.  *Technic'ly*, you could say that.
> 
> Here's how it works:
> 
> Assumptions:
> 
> Politicians are mostly decent, well-meaning, intelligent people who 
> want to do what's right for their citizens;
> 
> People are mostly decent, well-meaning people who want to do what's 
> best for their children;
> 
> People are mostly prepared to settle for an arrangement that is 
fair 
> to everybody, even if they don't get everything they want;
> 
> People's perception (and here's the killer) of what is fair is 
> biased toward their own interest.
> 
> Observation:
> 
> An organisation or any kind of corporate structure can have aims 
> which are never stated, and are not held by any one person who is 
> part of that organisation or body.
> 
> The argument:
> 
> People vote for the politicians who promise them the most, within 
> some envelope of fairness and credibility (my dad claims that at 
the 
> time of their precipitous decline between the wars, the UK Liberals 
> campaigned on the slogan 'vote Liberal for free food' - promises 
are 
> not enough).
> 
> The politicians then go about putting their policy into practice, 
> always bearing in mind that they must work within the constraints 
of 
> their mandate, public opinion, and the next election.  They may 
have 
> some bright ideas that really do benefit the vast majority of the 
> population without breaking the bank; if so, they are put into 
> practice quickly, all the other parties claim it was their idea all 
> along, and the electorate discounts the benefits long before the 
> next election, which is fought on the differentials between what's 
> offered at the time.
> 
> Pretty soon they come up against a decision which will involve 
> sacrificing the interests of some for the benefit of others.  What 
> do they do?  They make a political calculation.  Will the proposed 
> change lead to a situation resulting in defeat for them (other 
> things being equal!)?  If the answer is yes, they can go ahead 
> anyway, see themselves punished at the polls, and the policy 
> defeated.  Or they can pull the policy themselves: same result for 
> the policy but they are still in power.  (Of course, it's far more 
> complicated than this as there are lots of policy areas going on at 
> once which the voters will be affected by, so if you can pull off a 
> good war abroad you might risk some unpopular policies at home.  
But 
> then you've definitely left the zone of 'decent, well-meaning'.)
> 
> In essence, politicians are constrained by what they think they can 
> get away with in front of the electorate, the key point being that 
> this doesn't only apply to selfish and corrupt acts but also 
> altruistic ones.
> 
> So, the crucial element is the political calculation.  I think, 
once 
> you have got the easy ones out of the way (those which have a clear 
> net win or are out of the question), the hard decisions will 
cluster 
> around those which tend to benefit a small majority slightly while 
> causing a few to suffer considerably, or a larger minority to 
suffer 
> somewhat.  The majority who benefit will see such decisions as fair 
> becasue assumption 4 above causes them to discount the ill-effects 
> on others, while perceiving what is in fact a skew in their own 
> favour as being a rectification of a slight injustice.  Some of the 
> smarter politicians may well realise what is going on, but they are 
> largely powerless.  The electoral dynamics paint them into a corner 
> with the others.
> 
> (Note.  The precise meaning of 'majority' will depend on the system 
> of elective representation; where proportional representation is 
not 
> used, a large minority may at times be the beneficiaries rather 
than 
> a small majority.  At other times a larger majority will have to be 
> placated.)
> 
> Quod Erat Demonstrandum
>

Q.E.D. my sweet Fannie Adams!  You don't seem to have grasped the 
differnce between theory (see my brilliant unquivering riposte above) 
and practice.  Though one might fail at achieveing one's ideal, is it 
not better to light a candle than curse the darkness?
 
> So, if education is to *support* democracy, rather than merely be a 
> by-product as I have described above, perhaps it should concentrate 
> on encouraging children to see their own interests impartially.  I 
> think such a project would be guaranteed to fail, because it would 
> enrage parents.
> 
> On a more personal note, I'm broadly with Churchill on the question 
> of democracy: I disapprove of it, but the other systems are worse.  
> At least in a democracy 51% of the populace oppresses the other 
49%, 
> whereas in other systems the ratio is much worse.
> 
> Of course, I disapprove of the human race, too, so I'm not quite in 
> the same corner as Churchill.
> 
> David

Enlighten me as to your external perspective on the human race, if I 
might be so bold to inquire?

Haggridd





From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  6 01:05:46 2003
From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent)
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 01:05:46 -0000
Subject: My own education rant ( Re: Reading, Writing, and Multiple Choice)
In-Reply-To: <b45uuj+papp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b466ta+ej2j@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Haggridd" 
<jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:
> The class size at my elementary school was 
> 60 students throughout all eight years.  I realize that this is 
> anecdotal, but theses kids learned just fine.

This sort of argument is not just anecdotal, it defies logic.  If 
teachers are having a difficult time now giving each student 
adequate attention (most districts no longer allow classes larger 
than 30 students, and some have lowered that to 20 for younger 
students) how would doubling class size be a solution?  I have no 
way of knowing what years you went to school, but saying "theses 
[sic] kids learned just fine" is not taking into account the many 
challenges facing today's teachers.  You probably didn't have 
computers in school, either, but a well-equipped school should not 
be without computers in this day and age.
 
I said earlier:  
> > That said, however, raising teacher pay would, as a start, 
prevent the private sector from leeching good teachers from the 
schools who would otherwise have to choose between being able to 
follow their calling or paying their mortgage.  In places like the 
Bay Area (around San Francisco) real estate is at a premium even for 
people making six figures; workers in jobs like teaching and police 
work need to commute ridiculous distances because the wealthy people 
they serve are unwilling to part with a little more of their income 
to let these folks live in the same community.  They end up feeling 
like domestics who have to live on the "wrong" side of the tracks.  
 
You said:
> After implementing the reforms I suggested, agreed.  Your 
> characterization of the taxpayers seems a little snide in its own 
> right.  The quality of schools has historically been a prime 
> factor in choosing where to live, irrespective of the property 
> taxes quality schools may require.

Not in this case.  In Silicon Valley and similar places, the work 
has dictated the reason for so many people being in a given place.  
New communities have sprung up to house folks in the industry during 
the last twenty years, and new school systems have been created from 
scratch.  However, people who work for the public--teachers and 
cops, chiefly--cannot live in the communities where they work 
because houses there are outrageously expensive.  (The high salaries 
of the folks in the computer industry mean that by and large the 
market will bear those high prices).  Commute times of six hours a 
day are not unusual in that part of the country.  Some communities 
are considering constructing low-income housing especially for folks 
like teachers, but this is not prevalent enough yet.  (I'm torn 
between thinking this is a good thing and thinking it's more than a 
little demeaning for the teachers.)

You asked:
> Why should teachers have more job security than others in the 
> workforce?  If the more experienced teachers cannot demonstrate 
> that their experience actually makes for better teaching, then why 
> should they not compete with new hires?  This might free up some 
> funds to increase the compensation of the better teachers.

Teachers should have more job security because we need them, pure 
and simple.  I think the question that should be asked is why should 
just about everyone else have LESS?  Competing with new hires isn't 
the point.  We're talking about the well-being of kids here, not 
salesmen competing to have the highest sales.  More experienced 
teachers are valuable resources.  If I thought that ALL of the 
teachers at my kids' school were fresh out of college, I'd go 
shopping for another school.  You never did say anything about the 
private sector drawing away teachers who need to choose between 
their calling and being poverty-stricken.  We'll only ever have 
teachers with less than five years experience if there's absolutely 
no tenure, and the teacher shortage will surely worsen.

You said: 
> I have suggested that teachers minor in education courses myself. 
> I did not suggest that they be abolished, only the degree program 
> in education process.
 
That still doesn't address the question of what major elementary 
education trainees would take.  There's a huge interdisciplinary 
component to this (see Richelle's post), and right now there's no 
one major (other than "Elementary Education") that would address the 
variety of skills and background material needed by the person whose 
goal is to teach our youngest children.  It's also a different story 
entirely from teaching older children.

> I simply do not accept poverty as an excuse for poor teaching.  
> Experience with vouchers in poor areas belies that claim.

Can you point to these studies?  I know of at least one cited by 
Americans United for the Separation of Church and State that 
contradict your assertions.  I'm sorry you don't "accept" poverty as 
an "excuse for poor teaching."  How can you judge what is poor 
teaching under these circumstances?  Reread Richelle's post about 
the students she teaches.  I am also acquainted with teachers who 
work in North Philadelphia at schools where many of the children 
never eat a hot meal except at school (for free), never see a book 
except in school and never receive any help with homework.  A friend 
who is an art teacher gave a wind-up alarm clock (because their 
electricity was frequently shut off) to a little girl in second 
grade so that she could get herself and her little brother out of 
bed and to school on time each day, no thanks to her drug-addled 
mother.  The ART TEACHER had to take care of this, and we're talking 
about a seven-year-old who's responsible for herself and her five-
year-old brother.  She's an amazing kid, but if another kid 
responded to this situation by being the student from hell, are you 
saying it would be the teacher's fault?  Social Services said there 
was no reason the mother couldn't keep the kids if she went into 
rehab; no one wants to break up families as a first choice.  Saying 
the teachers are making excuses is highly misdirected finger-
pointing.  Until you walk a mile (or twenty) in their shoes, I 
wouldn't accuse anyone of making excuses.

In response to:
> > > 8.  Vouchers, vouchers, vouchers.  
I said: 
> > Where do I start?  So what?  I'll tell you what--a little thing 
> > called the First Amendment, that's what. 
You responded: 
> The first amendment to the U.S. Constitution does not preclude 
> purchasing educational services from private sources.  
> The "restriction of funds to a specific purpose" argument has been 
> used by people from all sides of the political spectrum to justify 
> spending the money, from Voucher advocates to those who want to 
> fund Planned Parenthood only for those services that do not 
> include abortion.  Both sides know that money is fungible.

Funds going to family planning services do not violate church/state 
separation.  While some people may not agree with it because of 
their own religious convictions, the fact remains that restricting 
funding for these services primarily because of religious reasons 
WOULD be contrary to the constitution.  Using public funds for what 
amounts to prosyletizing would also be a church/state violation, and 
as I pointed out, at sectarian schools it is virtually impossible to 
say whether the money is or isn't going for "religious studies" 
since classes that may not be overtly religious in nature can still 
be delivery systems for the religious beliefs at the basis of the 
curriculum.

There are also numerous people who run private and religious schools 
who are opposed to vouchers because they fear government 
interference in their schools.  They are free from that right now 
and like it very much.  They are not completely free from 
regulation, as all schools must receive accreditation from a body 
such as Middle States.  But they'd also have government breathing 
down their necks, possibly preventing them from doing the very 
things that were the reason for creating the school.  (Such as 
having religion permeate the curriculum.)

I ranted (yeah, I admit it<g>):
> > I get so tired of people 
> > thinking vouchers are the be all end all solution for 
> > education.  Vouchers would kill the public schools, pure and 
> > simple.  The fact is the public schools take the students no one 
> > else wants.  All private and parochial schools may choose their 
> > students. 

You said: 
> I am equally tired of that same old song.  Monopolies lead to 
> inefficiencies in many other arenas than in education.  The 
> solution is to break the monopoly, not make it stronger.  Did you 
> ever consider that poor teachers might have made that unfortunate 
> kid into a student that no one else wants?

No.  Not for a minute.  Even the worst teachers don't have that 
power.  Parents do.  You're spouting empty rhetoric about 
monopolies, but you're still not explaining how to force non-public 
schools to take students they don't want (or don't have room for).  
If you say "tell them they have to if they accept the vouchers as 
payment" that brings us back to those folks running non-public 
schools who don't want vouchers because they fear exactly this sort 
of government meddling.

You assert: 
> The most inefficient system for educating studnets is the current 
> publi system.  In response to the outside competitition, the 
> public system will either get better, obviating the need for the 
> vouchers, or shrink, as it should if it doesn't do the job that 
> others can do.

There is no basis for this assertion.  In districts where the 
funding is adequate or more than adequate the public education 
system is preferred by parents and students over alternatives.  I 
went to public school for K-6, private school for seventh grade, and 
back to public school for 8-12.  I call seventh grade "my year in 
hell."  The public schools I attended were far and away better than 
the private one (which, not surprisingly went belly-up when I was in 
the middle of eighth grade, forcing my former classmates to attend 
my public school during the rest of junior high).  

Now, that school was going under long before I came along as a 
student.  The reasons for that are numerous; its switch from being a 
girls' school to a coed school (how to completely alienate the 
graduates and dry up alumnae contributions!) is probably the chief 
one, followed closely by their having an expensive new building 
erected which devastated the endowment.  Many of the students had 
trouble keeping up when they were forced to switch to public school 
mid-year.  Their parents wanted their kids to go to a private school 
but weren't tremendously wealthy, so they sent them to the only one 
they could afford or would take them.  Is this what you call 
competition?  Just because you're sending your child to a non-public 
school is no guarantee that it's a GOOD school.  (And in my case, 
just because your kid receives a scholarship to boost enrollment at 
a private school doesn't mean you should switch your poor kid's 
school and make her miserable for a year.)  

When schools spring up just for the purpose of taking advantage of 
vouchers, there will be a huge number that fail, forcing kids back 
into the public schools mid-year.  Someone else pointed this out.  I 
won't belabor the point, but I went through something almost exactly 
like this, with the exception that I convinced my parents to let me 
go back to my old school at the beginning of the school year, and 
didn't have the disturbing experience of having to do it in January.

Me:
> > As for no funds going to support religious studies,  [snip] 
You:
> See above argument re NARAL and abortion funding.
Me again:
See above argument about how NARAL and abortion funding is 
completely different.

You said:
> Parents would not be forced to send their kids to private 
> schools.  They still have the opportunity to have their children 
> attend public schools, with all the many advantages you describe...

Saying parents would not be "forced" when you want to eviscerate the 
public schools' funding, turning them into schools no one would want 
to go near, is rather odd.  Clearly the goal of vouchers isn't to 
improve public schools, but to take money from them.  (You can say 
it's to foster competition all you like, but without adequate 
funding they CAN'T compete.)  There's little enough money now, and 
vouchers will mean less money.  And parents who do not wish to send 
their kids to the available religious schools either because they 
are not religious or the available schools are not affiliated with 
their religion will be stuck with public schools no one cares about 
anymore and which are not adequately funded.  At that point they may 
very well feel that they are "forced" to send their kids to schools 
with which they do not agree ideologically and which will be 
prosyletizing to their children.

You said:
> The truly egalitarian thing would be to empower poor parents to 
> have the same options as more affluent parents.  In the instances 
> where this choice has been implemented, Parentes have "voted with 
> their feet" time and time again.

The truly egalitarian thing is to have public schools improved to 
the point where even affluent parents want to send their children 
there, as happens in many, many districts across the country.  There 
are many fine public schools because in the areas where they exist 
there has been a recognition of their importance and there is 
funding commensurate with that.  These also tend to be in areas 
where there are fewer problems with poverty impeding student 
learning when kids are not in school.  (Although affluent areas 
still have problems with such things as teen drinking and drug use, 
among other things, and kids who engage in these activities go to 
both public and non-public schools.)  It is not egalitarian to 
expect the rest of us to pay for religious prosyletizing.  That's 
called un-Constitutional.

You said:
> Don't get me wrong.   I want to increase teacher pay by a great 
> deal, by over 100% in most cases.  I cannot justify doing this for 
> the present system.

Good to hear about the increases, but saying "the present system" is 
a rather meaningless phrase as systems differ vastly around the 
country (as noted by your saying that in Louisiana you can only 
pursue certification if you already have an MA in the field in 
question).  Every state has a different system, just about, and some 
work better than others.  What we need to do is hold up the 
successful systems and use them for models, rather than abandoning 
the public schools in favor of a "system" that has the potential to 
tread on many people's Constitutional rights and would have no 
government oversight.

--Barb

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent
http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb





From jrober4 at bellsouth.net  Thu Mar  6 03:08:45 2003
From: jrober4 at bellsouth.net (Judy Roberts)
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 03:08:45 -0000
Subject: Anyone here from Scotland?
Message-ID: <b46e3t+617i@eGroups.com>

I would be *most interested* to know if there are any HP fans here 
from Scotland. My boyfriend lives in Glasgow, and -- if things go as 
planned -- I will be applying for a visa so I can go live there and 
marry him.  Anyway, I would just *love* to discuss HP and Scotland 
(as separate topics, mainly -- LOL) with any Scotland residents 
here, if there *are* any and you are interested.  Please feel free 
to reply either here on the list or email me privately, okay?

Judy




From jrober4 at bellsouth.net  Thu Mar  6 03:54:31 2003
From: jrober4 at bellsouth.net (jrober4 at bellsouth.net)
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 22:54:31 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: What are JKR's religious beliefs?
References: <20030304220633.62614.qmail@web21110.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <00cf01c2e394$194e44e0$4ca2d6d1@nonexuzodpqjy5>

Petra said:

If you should happen to be 
"taking requests" from readers:

I'd be most interested in comments 
on the inter- or cross-faith aspects 
(or lack of thereof) in these books!


Me:

I, too, would be most interested in these book reviews.  I apologize for coming in late on this discussion, but I sure am glad it was started.  To tell you the truth, I am a late-comer to the HP books and movies because I had some misconceptions about them stemming from the arena of religion.  So, I am delighted to hear that this subject has been addressed, though I didn't know that until *after* I became a fan.  I am adult enough to keep the issues involved in proper perspective now, so I can enjoy HP without my religious beliefs being threatened.  I *definitely* want to get my hands on at least one of the books suggested, so see how the issues of HP and Christianity are addressed.  And, although I am a full-fledged HP fan, there is one concern I have, though I won't address it here.  

Anyway, I want to thank you all for this thread, which gave me the opportunity to speak about this.  I presume this has been discussed plenty before, so I don't think it would be appropriate for me to bring this whole thing back up for the umpteenth time here.  I guess the reviews will be a good place to start in my "making peace" with this issue.  

Judy




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  6 04:07:05 2003
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 04:07:05 -0000
Subject: My own education rant ( Re: Reading, Writing, and Multiple Choice)
In-Reply-To: <b466ta+ej2j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b46hha+pl3u@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "psychic_serpent" 
<psychic_serpent at y...> wrote:
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Haggridd" 
> <jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:
> > The class size at my elementary school was 
> > 60 students throughout all eight years.  I realize that this is 
> > anecdotal, but theses kids learned just fine.
> 
> This sort of argument is not just anecdotal, it defies logic.  If 
> teachers are having a difficult time now giving each student 
> adequate attention (most districts no longer allow classes larger 
> than 30 students, and some have lowered that to 20 for younger 
> students) how would doubling class size be a solution? 

"E pur si muove."-- Gallileo Gallilei

 I have no 
> way of knowing what years you went to school, but saying "theses 
> [sic] 

I missed the typo; I suppose that proves the superiority of public 
schools.


kids learned just fine" is not taking into account the many 
> challenges facing today's teachers.  You probably didn't have 
> computers in school, either, but a well-equipped school should not 
> be without computers in this day and age.
>
  
When I went to school, the only computers were room sized behemoths.  
We did quite nicely with Composition brand notebooks and the library 
card catalogue.  I guess you missed my agreement about funding for 
computers in my first post.

> I said earlier:  
> > > That said, however, raising teacher pay would, as a start, 
> prevent the private sector from leeching good teachers from the 
> schools who would otherwise have to choose between being able to 
> follow their calling or paying their mortgage.  In places like the 
> Bay Area (around San Francisco) real estate is at a premium even 
for 
> people making six figures; workers in jobs like teaching and police 
> work need to commute ridiculous distances because the wealthy 
people 
> they serve are unwilling to part with a little more of their income 
> to let these folks live in the same community.  They end up feeling 
> like domestics who have to live on the "wrong" side of the tracks.  
>  
> You said:
> > After implementing the reforms I suggested, agreed.  Your 
> > characterization of the taxpayers seems a little snide in its own 
> > right.  The quality of schools has historically been a prime 
> > factor in choosing where to live, irrespective of the property 
> > taxes quality schools may require.
> 
> Not in this case.  In Silicon Valley and similar places, the work 
> has dictated the reason for so many people being in a given place.  
> New communities have sprung up to house folks in the industry 
during 
> the last twenty years, and new school systems have been created 
from 
> scratch.  However, people who work for the public--teachers and 
> cops, chiefly--cannot live in the communities where they work 
> because houses there are outrageously expensive.  (The high 
salaries 
> of the folks in the computer industry mean that by and large the 
> market will bear those high prices).  Commute times of six hours a 
> day are not unusual in that part of the country.  Some communities 
> are considering constructing low-income housing especially for 
folks 
> like teachers, but this is not prevalent enough yet.  (I'm torn 
> between thinking this is a good thing and thinking it's more than a 
> little demeaning for the teachers.)
>
As extensive as my suggested reforms are, I didn't go so far as to 
suggest the abolition of the free market.  An essential part of these 
reforms is a drastic increase in teacher compensation.

 
> You asked:
> > Why should teachers have more job security than others in the 
> > workforce?  If the more experienced teachers cannot demonstrate 
> > that their experience actually makes for better teaching, then 
why 
> > should they not compete with new hires?  This might free up some 
> > funds to increase the compensation of the better teachers.
> 
> Teachers should have more job security because we need them, pure 
> and simple.  I think the question that should be asked is why 
should 
> just about everyone else have LESS?  Competing with new hires isn't 
> the point.  We're talking about the well-being of kids here, not 
> salesmen competing to have the highest sales.  More experienced 
> teachers are valuable resources.  If I thought that ALL of the 
> teachers at my kids' school were fresh out of college, I'd go 
> shopping for another school.  You never did say anything about the 
> private sector drawing away teachers who need to choose between 
> their calling and being poverty-stricken.  We'll only ever have 
> teachers with less than five years experience if there's absolutely 
> no tenure, and the teacher shortage will surely worsen.
> 

So we need telephones and telephone systems less?  We have less of a 
need for nurses?  Less of a need for really good pizza?
If these more experienced teachers are indeed valuable resources, 
they will be sought after.  If the "experience" is mere time-serving, 
then wasting your and my hard-earned tax dollars-- mine earned 
without the protection of tenure-- is wrong.


> You said: 
> > I have suggested that teachers minor in education courses myself. 
> > I did not suggest that they be abolished, only the degree program 
> > in education process.
>  
> That still doesn't address the question of what major elementary 
> education trainees would take.  There's a huge interdisciplinary 
> component to this (see Richelle's post), and right now there's no 
> one major (other than "Elementary Education") that would address 
the 
> variety of skills and background material needed by the person 
whose 
> goal is to teach our youngest children.  It's also a different 
story 
> entirely from teaching older children.
> 
> > I simply do not accept poverty as an excuse for poor teaching.  
> > Experience with vouchers in poor areas belies that claim.
> 
> Can you point to these studies?  I know of at least one cited by 
> Americans United for the Separation of Church and State that 
> contradict your assertions. 

Consider the source.  Do you want to get into the question of all the 
myriad ways bias can corrupt a study?  We would have to analyze every 
single one critically.

 I'm sorry you don't "accept" poverty as 
> an "excuse for poor teaching."  How can you judge what is poor 
> teaching under these circumstances?  Reread Richelle's post about 
> the students she teaches.  I am also acquainted with teachers who 
> work in North Philadelphia at schools where many of the children 
> never eat a hot meal except at school (for free), never see a book 
> except in school and never receive any help with homework.  A 
friend 
> who is an art teacher gave a wind-up alarm clock (because their 
> electricity was frequently shut off) to a little girl in second 
> grade so that she could get herself and her little brother out of 
> bed and to school on time each day, no thanks to her drug-addled 
> mother.  The ART TEACHER had to take care of this, and we're 
talking 
> about a seven-year-old who's responsible for herself and her five-
> year-old brother.  She's an amazing kid, but if another kid 
> responded to this situation by being the student from hell, are you 
> saying it would be the teacher's fault?  Social Services said there 
> was no reason the mother couldn't keep the kids if she went into 
> rehab; no one wants to break up families as a first choice.  Saying 
> the teachers are making excuses is highly misdirected finger-
> pointing.  Until you walk a mile (or twenty) in their shoes, I 
> wouldn't accuse anyone of making excuses.
>

Actually, modesty prevented me before, but, "been there, done that, 
did without the T-shirt".  I repeat, it is a handy and overused 
excuse in finger-pointing itself to divert attention from the 
individual teacher's responsibility.  Poverty does not make 
criminals, nor does it excuse poor teaching.  Individuals must take 
responsibility for what they do, and what they do poorly.
 
> In response to:
> > > > 8.  Vouchers, vouchers, vouchers.  
> I said: 
> > > Where do I start?  So what?  I'll tell you what--a little thing 
> > > called the First Amendment, that's what. 
> You responded: 
> > The first amendment to the U.S. Constitution does not preclude 
> > purchasing educational services from private sources.  
> > The "restriction of funds to a specific purpose" argument has 
been 
> > used by people from all sides of the political spectrum to 
justify 
> > spending the money, from Voucher advocates to those who want to 
> > fund Planned Parenthood only for those services that do not 
> > include abortion.  Both sides know that money is fungible.
> 
> Funds going to family planning services do not violate church/state 
> separation.  While some people may not agree with it because of 
> their own religious convictions, the fact remains that restricting 
> funding for these services primarily because of religious reasons 
> WOULD be contrary to the constitution.  Using public funds for what 
> amounts to prosyletizing would also be a church/state violation, 
and 
> as I pointed out, at sectarian schools it is virtually impossible 
to 
> say whether the money is or isn't going for "religious studies" 
> since classes that may not be overtly religious in nature can still 
> be delivery systems for the religious beliefs at the basis of the 
> curriculum.
> 
We will never agree on this. It is a shame.  Absent some sort of 
voucher system, the incentive for improvement (the loss of those tax 
dollars of which I spoke) is minimal.  I can't see taxpayers throwing 
ever larger piles of money down a hole.  The increased resources that 
you and I believe are needed will not then be allocated to education, 
no matter how many job actions are taken by the teachers' union. 

Tell me this. Do you feel that it is an impermissible intrusion of 
Church into State the the Declaration of Independence refers to "the 
Laws of Nature and Nature's God"?  Purchasing education services from 
private sources is not the "establishment of religion" spoken of by 
the first amendment.


> There are also numerous people who run private and religious 
schools 
> who are opposed to vouchers because they fear government 
> interference in their schools.  They are free from that right now 
> and like it very much.  They are not completely free from 
> regulation, as all schools must receive accreditation from a body 
> such as Middle States.  But they'd also have government breathing 
> down their necks, possibly preventing them from doing the very 
> things that were the reason for creating the school.  (Such as 
> having religion permeate the curriculum.)
>

Private schools do not have to participate in a voucher system.  I do 
think that accreditation should be a prerequisite for the school to 
participate.

> I ranted (yeah, I admit it<g>):
> > > I get so tired of people 
> > > thinking vouchers are the be all end all solution for 
> > > education.  Vouchers would kill the public schools, pure and 
> > > simple.  The fact is the public schools take the students no 
one 
> > > else wants.  All private and parochial schools may choose their 
> > > students. 
> 
> You said: 
> > I am equally tired of that same old song.  Monopolies lead to 
> > inefficiencies in many other arenas than in education.  The 
> > solution is to break the monopoly, not make it stronger.  Did you 
> > ever consider that poor teachers might have made that unfortunate 
> > kid into a student that no one else wants?
> 
> No.  Not for a minute.  Even the worst teachers don't have that 
> power.  Parents do.  You're spouting empty rhetoric about 
> monopolies, 

Empty?  Ask one of your social studies teachers-- a good one-- about 
the pernicious effects of monopoly.

but you're still not explaining how to force non-public 
> schools to take students they don't want (or don't have room for).  
> If you say "tell them they have to if they accept the vouchers as 
> payment" that brings us back to those folks running non-public 
> schools who don't want vouchers because they fear exactly this sort 
> of government meddling.
> 
I think that it is quite reasonable to require participating schools 
to honor all students with vouchers, up to their previously 
determined capacity.  Againg, the schools do not have to participate 
in the program.


> You assert: 
> > The most inefficient system for educating studnets is the current 
> > publi system.  In response to the outside competitition, the 
> > public system will either get better, obviating the need for the 
> > vouchers, or shrink, as it should if it doesn't do the job that 
> > others can do.
> 
> There is no basis for this assertion.  

You missed the opportunity for a few more "[sic]s" there.  But to 
answer your point, there are numerous reports that the per student 
cost is far higher in the public system.  In my dictionary, it says 
that that is the precise definiton of "inefficient"; its denotation, 
if you will. 

In districts where the 
> funding is adequate or more than adequate the public education 
> system is preferred by parents and students over alternatives.  I 
> went to public school for K-6, private school for seventh grade, 
and 
> back to public school for 8-12.  I call seventh grade "my year in 
> hell."  The public schools I attended were far and away better than 
> the private one (which, not surprisingly went belly-up when I was 
in 
> the middle of eighth grade, forcing my former classmates to attend 
> my public school during the rest of junior high).  
> 
> Now, that school was going under long before I came along as a 
> student.  The reasons for that are numerous; its switch from being 
a 
> girls' school to a coed school (how to completely alienate [sic]

Can I do a "[sic]" if you split an infinitive?  (I was getting 
worried there for awhile.  You proofread your post better than I 
did.  Two points for public education!  <g>)

the 
> graduates and dry up alumnae contributions!) 

I just get all hot and sweaty over correct Latin declension.)

is probably the chief 
> one, followed closely by their having an expensive new building 
> erected which devastated the endowment.  Many of the students had 
> trouble keeping up when they were forced to switch to public school 
> mid-year.  Their parents wanted their kids to go to a private 
school 
> but weren't tremendously wealthy, so they sent them to the only one 
> they could afford or would take them.  Is this what you call 
> competition?  Just because you're sending your child to a non-
public 
> school is no guarantee that it's a GOOD school.  (And in my case, 
> just because your kid receives a scholarship to boost enrollment at 
> a private school doesn't mean you should switch your poor kid's 
> school and make her miserable for a year.)  
>
In response, I say that that, at minimum, the private school must be 
accredited, and that as you pointed out, if a parent isn't desperate, 
he ("He" includes "she"-- my old grammar book says so.) won't switch 
his (Ditto for "his" and "her".) child out of public school.  If the 
private school doesn't do the job, the parent is free to select 
another school.  Who knows, by that time the competition miight have 
spurred the public school to clean up its act.

 
> When schools spring up just for the purpose of taking advantage of 
> vouchers, there will be a huge number that fail, forcing kids back 
> into the public schools mid-year.  Someone else pointed this out. 

You are setting up a straw man and knocking it down, which proves 
nothing.  The accreditation process takes more than a single year.  
Fly-by-night private schools are not going to get a single voucher 
dollar.



 I 
> won't belabor the point, but I went through something almost 
exactly 
> like this, with the exception that I convinced my parents to let me 
> go back to my old school at the beginning of the school year, and 
> didn't have the disturbing experience of having to do it in January.
> 
> Me:
> > > As for no funds going to support religious studies,  [snip] 
> You:
> > See above argument re NARAL and abortion funding.
> Me again:
> See above argument about how NARAL and abortion funding is 
> completely different.
> 

See above yourself!  <g>

> You said:
> > Parents would not be forced to send their kids to private 
> > schools.  They still have the opportunity to have their children 
> > attend public schools, with all the many advantages you 
describe...
> 
> Saying parents would not be "forced" when you want to eviscerate 
the 
> public schools' funding, turning them into schools no one would 
want 
> to go near, is rather odd. 

Barb, many of these schools are already ones which no one wants to go 
near.  They just don't have any alternative!

 Clearly the goal of vouchers isn't to 
> improve public schools, but to take money from them. 

Clear to whom?


 (You can say 
> it's to foster competition all you like, but without adequate 
> funding they CAN'T compete.)  

There will be fewer students, so the loss of funds will be 
proportionate to the smaller task.

There's little enough money now, and 
> vouchers will mean less money.  And parents who do not wish to send 
> their kids to the available religious schools either because they 
> are not religious or the available schools are not affiliated with 
> their religion will be stuck with public schools no one cares about 
> anymore and which are not adequately funded.  At that point they 
may 
> very well feel that they are "forced" to send their kids to schools 
> with which they do not agree ideologically and which will be 
> prosyletizing to their children.
> 

O Lord, smite me with such a curse!  Pretty please!


> You said:
> > The truly egalitarian thing would be to empower poor parents to 
> > have the same options as more affluent parents.  In the instances 
> > where this choice has been implemented, Parentes have "voted with 
> > their feet" time and time again.
> 
> The truly egalitarian thing is to have public schools improved to 
> the point where even affluent parents want to send their children 
> there, as happens in many, many districts across the country.  
There 
> are many fine public schools because in the areas where they exist 
> there has been a recognition of their importance and there is 
> funding commensurate with that.  These also tend to be in areas 
> where there are fewer problems with poverty impeding student 
> learning when kids are not in school.  (Although affluent areas 
> still have problems with such things as teen drinking and drug use, 
> among other things, and kids who engage in these activities go to 
> both public and non-public schools.)  It is not egalitarian to 
> expect the rest of us to pay for religious prosyletizing.  That's 
> called un-Constitutional.
>
You keep going back to that (specious) separation-of-Church-and-State 
argument.  Is it that you are unsure of the persuasivenes of your 
other arguments?

> You said:
> > Don't get me wrong.   I want to increase teacher pay by a great 
> > deal, by over 100% in most cases.  I cannot justify doing this 
for 
> > the present system.
> 
> Good to hear about the increases, but saying "the present system" 
is 
> a rather meaningless phrase as systems differ vastly around the 
> country (as noted by your saying that in Louisiana you can only 
> pursue certification if you already have an MA in the field in 
> question).  

Pleas read my post.  I said that the route of accrediting individuals 
with non-education degrees was to make them obtain an M.A. degree in 
Education.  I apologize if I wasn't clear.

Ah, I was clear, if brief:

"In Louisiana, this requires a special Masters degree-- In Education. 
This doesn't address point #2."

Private schools work on reading comprehension rather well, in my 
experience.

Every state has a different system, just about, and some 
> work better than others.  What we need to do is hold up the 
> successful systems and use them for models, rather than abandoning 
> the public schools in favor of a "system" that has the potential to 
> tread on many people's Constitutional rights and would have no 
> government oversight.
> 
> --Barb
> 

Barb,
We both feel strongly that the important thing is to educate our 
kids.  Whatever solution we come up with in practice will have some 
of the elements I suggested, while maintaining to some extent the 
protections for our current teachers that you seem to find of 
paramount importance.  I hope and pray (if that's ok with you, that 
is <g>) that the answer will be persuasive enough to command the tax 
dollars necessary for its implementation.

--Haggridd (who had a crush on his second grade teacher-- and she was 
a nun, too!)






From belleps at october.com  Thu Mar  6 05:11:04 2003
From: belleps at october.com (Beth)
Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 23:11:04 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Ever So Evil household objects
In-Reply-To: <1046893508.1898.55690.m12@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20030305230344.00a216d0@pop.cox-internet.com>

At 07:45 PM 3/5/03 +0000, you wrote:
>And then there were the years in which cobras, a la Rikki Tikki Tavi,
>would come swarming out of the toilet if I flushed it.  I got very
>adept at getting as close as possible to the door, one finger
>outstretched to flush, and then running for my life.  But you all
>don't want to hear about that . . .
>
>Amy

Interesting. I had the exact same reaction to the toilet, but not because 
of cobras. I just KNEW that anything that could make that loud a noise 
would surely someday reach out and drag me in. I thought that flushing was 
waking it up. So, yes, poised to run, one finger on the flush handle...

Walking past windows at night worried me, too. As though something could 
smash through, grab me, and drag me out. Only at night, of course.

And then there was the trap door. The house I grew up in didn't have a 
basement or a slab. It was a raised floor, with a crawl space under the 
house about three feet tall. Dad used to disappear under there to check 
pipes, spray for insects, etc. The trap door to get down there was in the 
floor of my bedroom closet.

Somewhere along the way, I had a nightmare that glowing skeletons came 
crawling out of the trap door, hid under my bed, and grabbed my ankles when 
I got close to the bed. I spent the rest of my time at my parents' house 
making sure that my closet's sliding doors were firmly closed, and making a 
running leap for my bed so that my feet didn't get too close.

Aren't we silly when we're young?

And no, I don't consider it silly that I still have to make sure that my 
closet door is firmly shut before I can go to sleep. <big grin>

bel 




From the.gremlin at verizon.net  Thu Mar  6 06:11:16 2003
From: the.gremlin at verizon.net (the.gremlin at verizon.net)
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 0:11:16 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Ever So Evil household objects
Message-ID: <20030306061116.VTXI6910.out005.verizon.net@[127.0.0.1]>

bel:
"Walking past windows at night worried me, too. As though something could smash through, grab me, and drag me out. Only at night, of course."

My thing is mirrors. Ever since I heard the whole "Bloody Mary" thing, I freak out with mirrors in a dark room. Even if I don't do the Bloody Mary thing.

And ghosts. I go to school on an old military base, and most of the buildings here are renovated from previous army buildings and are rumored by students to be haunted. Don't like to be in a dark room my myself...

"Aren't we silly when we're young?"

I once didn't have my glasses on, and I thought I saw a piece of paper floating in mid-air, and I screamed really loud. Turned out it was just folded at a 90 degree angle and I couldn't see the other end.

I also once saw neon colored happy faces on my wall. Or it may have been a dream...This was also when I was under 10, though I can't remember the exact age...

-Acire
http://www.underground-newslet.com
The Underground--Fixing your addiction for writing.

"So sorry-dozed off-what have I missed?"
Prof. Lockhart, Chamber of Secrets



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From jenP_97 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  6 08:02:19 2003
From: jenP_97 at yahoo.com (jenp_97)
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 08:02:19 -0000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Ever So Evil household objects
In-Reply-To: <20030306061116.VTXI6910.out005.verizon.net@[127.0.0.1]>
Message-ID: <b46vab+tpml@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, <the.gremlin at v...> wrote:
> bel:
> "Walking past windows at night worried me, too. As though something
could smash through, grab me, and drag me out. Only at night, of
course."
> 
> My thing is mirrors. Ever since I heard the whole "Bloody Mary"
thing, I freak out with mirrors in a dark room. Even if I don't do the
Bloody Mary thing.

<snip>

You, too?  I was wondering when this one would come up.  I've never
actually even *done* the whole... um... I can't even bring myself to
say the words!!!

It was so bad while I was in junior high and high school that I would
turn my full-length mirror around to the wall every night before the
light went off.  And I would leave a (very bright fluorescent) light
on in the bathroom should I have to go in the middle of the night. 
And in order to get to sleep at night, I'd have to go through this
huge ritual once I was in bed that the lady in question would only
come out when it was 25:18 o'clock on the 32nd of the 14th month of
the year.  Growing up as the daughter of retired military parents, I
had to take into account military time.  I originally said to myself
that she could only come out at 14:00 o'clock, but a few nights later,
I realized that 2 in the afternoon would be a horrible time.  And
then, I rationalized, it would be way too easy to walk into a room and
see that it was exactly 25:00 (silly me), so I made it 25:18.

I still can't even look towards a mirror if it's dark.  But then,
that's a common one.  Anyone else afraid of dust mites?  Not because
they were allergic to them, but because they saw them on some
educational program magnified a thousand times (or whatever), and then
had nightmares about them for years because the little buggers were so
ugly?  I actually modified my little rationalization speech at night
to include dust mites.

And don't get me started about having to lie right in the middle of my
bed with the covers all tucked in so the things under my bed couldn't
reach me... and then having to jump at least 3 feet from the edge
should I have to get up in the night because that was their maximum
reach.

I really over-analyzed things as a child, didn't I?

JenP, who's so tired these days that she has no brain power to think
about monsters under her bed... and whose kids haven't dreamed them up
yet.




From Ali at zymurgy.org  Thu Mar  6 10:49:04 2003
From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali)
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 10:49:04 -0000
Subject: Happy World Book Day
Message-ID: <b47930+p3q2@eGroups.com>

Happy World Book Day!

The Harry Potter phenomenon is still alive and well - in Reading, UK 
at least.

The children at my daughter's primary school had to dress up as a 
book character today in honour of World Book Day. The school seemed 
to resemble Hogwarts this morning, with numerous Harrys and 
Hermiones. I've never seen so many cloaks, wands and witches hats off 
a film set. My daughter was up and dressed by 7am, whereas I'm 
normally trying to force her into her clothes an hour and a half 
later.

It has made me wonder though, what has happened to all the other book 
characters? Do the children who first fell in love with Harry 5 years 
ago still like him, or is he now uncool? As an adult, my friends have 
always thought I was mad for loving the Potterverse so much, but 
unlike teenagers, I'm not so influenced by peergroup pressure.

Are teenagers still allowed to like Harry? 

Ali

(In a speculative mood)




From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Thu Mar  6 11:52:16 2003
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David)
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 11:52:16 -0000
Subject: Bloody Mary? (was Ever So Evil household objects)
In-Reply-To: <20030306061116.VTXI6910.out005.verizon.net@[127.0.0.1]>
Message-ID: <b47cpg+3ti1@eGroups.com>

Acire wrote:

> My thing is mirrors. Ever since I heard the whole "Bloody Mary" 
thing, I freak out with mirrors in a dark room. Even if I don't do 
the Bloody Mary thing.

Is this someone who comes out of mirrors in the dark at a set time?

David, who still wonders if he will see a face at the window at night




From s_ings at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  6 12:23:07 2003
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 07:23:07 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Ghosts (was: Re: Re: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Ever So Evil household objects)
In-Reply-To: <20030306061116.VTXI6910.out005.verizon.net@[127.0.0.1]>
Message-ID: <20030306122307.33444.qmail@web41109.mail.yahoo.com>

 --- the.gremlin at verizon.net wrote: > bel:
> "Walking past windows at night worried me, too. As
> though something could smash through, grab me, and
> drag me out. Only at night, of course."
> 
> My thing is mirrors. Ever since I heard the whole
> "Bloody Mary" thing, I freak out with mirrors in a
> dark room. Even if I don't do the Bloody Mary thing.
> 
> And ghosts. I go to school on an old military base,
> and most of the buildings here are renovated from
> previous army buildings and are rumored by students
> to be haunted. Don't like to be in a dark room my
> myself...
> 
My daughter went to a haunted school for 4 years
before her graduation last summer. Apparently
authentically haunted, as it is on the Haunted Walk
tour. She never saw any ghosts, but said the students
talked about it quite often.

We also have, among other things, a haunted museum and
youth hostel. The youth hostel haunting is
understandable, as it the former City Gaol and site of
the last public hanging in Canada. They used to offer
free stays if someone could spend the night alone on
the top floor. Had to stop the offer, as people were
too frightened.

Sheryll

=====
"We need to be united and strong. We'll have losses and scares, sure. And you'll be there for each other, helping each other through the bad times."
 blpurdom - Harry Potter and the Psychic Serpent, Chapter 26

______________________________________________________________________ 
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca



From lupinesque at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  6 13:39:34 2003
From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 13:39:34 -0000
Subject: Bloody Mary? (was Ever So Evil household objects)
In-Reply-To: <b47cpg+3ti1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b47j2m+46uu@eGroups.com>

David wrote:

> Is this someone who comes out of mirrors in the dark at a set time?

Damn, I KNEW someone was going to ask what Bloody Mary is!

Please put accurate subject headings on your posts, responders.  I 
want to skip them so that I can continue to cope with daily life.

Amy
who has a very big mirror on her dresser right where she can't 
possibly avoid it




From pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no  Thu Mar  6 14:19:23 2003
From: pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no (pengolodh_sc)
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 14:19:23 -0000
Subject: Bloody Mary? (Amy shouldn't read this, I guess)
In-Reply-To: <b47cpg+3ti1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b47ldb+pch9@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter, "David" wrote:


> Acire wrote:


> 


> > My thing is mirrors. Ever since I heard the whole "Bloody Mary" 


> > thing, I freak out with mirrors in a dark room. Even if I don't do 


> > the Bloody Mary thing.


> 


> Is this someone who comes out of mirrors in the dark at a set time?


> 


> David, who still wonders if he will see a face at the window at


> night




Did a Google-search - seems Bloody Mary in the mirror is some form of 
urban legend, popular primarily among American girls in late preteens 
or early teens (who will typically do this at sleepovers, slumber 
parties, summer camp, etc.), based on a legend (not very old - assumed 
100 years old at most, as I understood the apges I read) that by 
standing in a darkened room (bathroom?) before a mirror, chanting 
"Bloody Mary, Bloody Mary, Bloody Mary", the face of said Bloody Mary, 
always horribly mutilated, will appear.  This Bloody Mary is 
supposedly a malevolent spirit; or the ghost of Mary Queen of Scots; 
or the ghost of Mary I of England (who was known as Bloody Mary for 
the great number of protestants put to death during her reign); or 
some Mary (typically Mary Worth, or Mary Whales) who'd murdered her 
children, killed herself and remained a ghost; or the Virgin Mary 
turned evil and leading an army of demons; the devil in a woman's 
guise; etc. etc.  Some variants of the legend hold that she will 
answer a question when summoned, but that she then will have focussed 
her attention on the summoner, who is then never safe before a mirror 
in a darkened room - she might claw the eyes out - or claw the face 
off - or pull the summoner through the mirror (presumably to a place 
that is not nice).




Overall, the Bloody Mary legend seems to be quite a mix of Native 
American and Mexican legends, mixed with some names and rumours of 
local character, and some old European folklore thrown in for good 
measure.  There are those that claim that the legend was created by 
some church to scare kids from attempting to dabble in the occult.




http://www.mythology.com/bloodymary.html seems most informative about 
the whole phenomenon, but the below Google-search and websites also 
seem to contain good information.




http://www.google.com/search?q=%22bloody+mary%22+mirror&sourceid=opera
&num=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8




http://www.headquartersofhorror.homestead.com/BloodyMary.html


http://www.castleofspirits.com/bloodymary.html


http://www.geocities.com/sopgha/Bloody_Mary.html




Best regards


Christian Stub?





From melclaros at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  6 15:12:45 2003
From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros)
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 15:12:45 -0000
Subject: My own education rant
In-Reply-To: <20030305133400.1970.h014.c011.wm@mail.thequiltbug.com.criticalpath.net>
Message-ID: <b47ohd+gh2b@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Calliope" <julia at t...> wrote:
> On Wed, 05 Mar 2003 13:30:21 -0800 (PST), "melclaros" wrote:
> >>Children are already being warehoused and our voucher 
> program is in its infancy. These schools are not required to test 
> their students. (How ironic is THAT? The public schools live and 
die 
> by the state test, but the state is handing out checks to private 
> schools and giving them Carte Blanche with it! No accountability 
> requested!) When the money runs out, the children are shipped back 
to 
> the local public school, midway through the year, woefully behind 
and 
> TA-DA! they are then expected to pass the sacred FCAT which will 
> grade the school the children haven't even been attending for most 
of 
> the year! The school's grade drops, more students become eligible 
for 
> vouchers based on that grade and the vicious circle begins again. 
> 
> Me:
> 
> I am sitting here with my eyes falling out in total shock.  You 
have GOT to be
> kidding me!  Please tell me you are making this up.  Please, 
please, please. 
> They're getting state money, but don't have to abide by state 
regulations?  I
> think I'm going to be sick.  This is the most ludicrous thing I've 
ever heard. 
> I thought *my* state was the only one making a bunch of dumb rules, 
but I see
> that's not so.  Geez.
> 
> Calliope 
> 



I wish I could tell you I was making it up. Actually I could tell you 
more. But I won't. It's just too sickening.

Mel




From the.gremlin at verizon.net  Thu Mar  6 15:49:15 2003
From: the.gremlin at verizon.net (the.gremlin at verizon.net)
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 9:49:15 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Bloody Mary? (Amy shouldn't read this, I guess)
Message-ID: <20030306154915.ZZLJ6546.out002.verizon.net@[192.168.129.133]>

Christian:
"Did a Google-search - seems Bloody Mary in the mirror is some form of urban legend, popular primarily among American girls in late preteens or early teens (who will typically do this at sleepovers, slumber parties, summer camp, etc.), based on a legend (not very old - assumed 100 years old at most, as I understood the apges I read) that by standing in a darkened room (bathroom?) before a mirror, chanting "Bloody Mary, Bloody Mary, Bloody Mary", the face of said Bloody Mary, 
always horribly mutilated, will appear.? This Bloody Mary is supposedly a malevolent spirit; or the ghost of Mary Queen of Scots; or the ghost of Mary I of England (who was known as Bloody Mary for the great number of protestants put to death during her reign); or some Mary (typically Mary Worth, or Mary Whales) who'd murdered her children, killed herself and remained a ghost; or the Virgin Mary turned evil and leading an army of demons; the devil in a woman's guise; etc. etc.? Some variants of the legend hold that she will answer a question when summoned, but that she then will have focussed 
her attention on the summoner, who is then never safe before a mirror in a darkened room - she might claw the eyes out - or claw the face off - or pull the summoner through the mirror (presumably to a place 
that is not nice)."

You just scared the bejeezus out of me, even though it's broad daylight, and there's no mirrors to be seen. The copier went off and I jumped.

Anyway, we always used to get dared to do it at sleepovers, and the way our story went was that you chanted "Bloody Mary" 13 times in front of a mirror, and then her face would apppear. From there, I'm not sure, but there was an X-FIles episode where the mirror broke and killed a girl, so that added to the fear.

Another of my fears was Candy Man (where you chant Candy Man in front of a mirror and he comes out and if you don't throw him a piece of candy he'll kill you), but he never amounted to the same things as Bloody mary. Geez, I'm afraid of sleepover games. My English teacher always said not to mess with things you don't know about, like a Ouiji board. You might wind up paying for it later in life.

"Overall, the Bloody Mary legend seems to be quite a mix of Native American and Mexican legends, mixed with some names and rumours of local character, and some old European folklore thrown in for good measure.? There are those that claim that the legend was created by some church to scare kids from attempting to dabble in the occult."

That's actually pretty interesting. Maybe if I read up on it, it wouldn't fream me out so much...


-Acire
http://www.underground-newslet.com
The Underground--Fixing your addiction for writing.

"So sorry-dozed off-what have I missed?"
Prof. Lockhart, Chamber of Secrets



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Thu Mar  6 16:10:16 2003
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David)
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 16:10:16 -0000
Subject: Surfing after dark (was Bloody Mary; not for Amy)
In-Reply-To: <20030306154915.ZZLJ6546.out002.verizon.net@[192.168.129.133]>
Message-ID: <b47rt8+f4at@eGroups.com>

... and next time you click on a message header you think all you'll 
get is some silly Yahoo ad?

David




From golden_faile at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  6 16:25:01 2003
From: golden_faile at yahoo.com (golden faile)
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 08:25:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Happy World Book Day
In-Reply-To: <b47930+p3q2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20030306162501.10309.qmail@web41101.mail.yahoo.com>


 
 Ali <Ali at zymurgy.org> wrote:
Happy World Book Day!

The Harry Potter phenomenon is still alive and well - in Reading, UK 
at least.

The children at my daughter's primary school had to dress up as a 
book character today in honour of World Book Day. The school seemed 
to resemble Hogwarts this morning, with numerous Harrys and 
Hermiones. I've never seen so many cloaks, wands and witches hats off 
a film set. My daughter was up and dressed by 7am, whereas I'm 
normally trying to force her into her clothes an hour and a half 
later.

It has made me wonder though, what has happened to all the other book 
characters? Do the children who first fell in love with Harry 5 years 
ago still like him, or is he now uncool? As an adult, my friends have 
always thought I was mad for loving the Potterverse so much, but 
unlike teenagers, I'm not so influenced by peergroup pressure.

Are teenagers still allowed to like Harry? 

Judgeing from all of the teens I sw at the theatres this summer, I would say yes. There were oodles of them, but I'm not quite sure if it was because of Dan and Tom or because they loved the stories. They were all dressed too. I guess maybe it wasn't just because of Dan and Tom because there were just as many males there as females(which as I was typing just realized still means nothing!)They were all dressed up as different characters. I think the potter phenomena is at it's peak right now, give it a couple of years and then ask the same question. Overall, I think it's cool to like the books that you read when you were young, I've never heard (from anyone that I knew anyway) of someone being hassled about their reading preferences. It was more about clothes, hair,etc. Well, I've had my say.
Laila


Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
var lrec_target="_top";var lrec_URL = new Array();lrec_URL[1] = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.2974023.4304644.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1707544108:HM/A=1430287/R=0/id=flashurl/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405";var link="javascript:LRECopenWindow(1)";var lrec_flashfile = 'http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/intl_library_of_poetry/yahoo_300x250.swf?clickTAG='+link+'';var lrec_altURL = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.2974023.4304644.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1707544108:HM/A=1430287/R=1/id=altimgurl/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405";var lrec_altimg = "http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/intl_library_of_poetry/yahoo_300x250.gif";var lrec_width = 300;var lrec_height = 250;
________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________

Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the group's Admin Files!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/

Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying!

Is your message...
An announcement of merchandise, news etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements.
Movie-related? Send it to HPFGU-Movie.
Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups.
None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter.
Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com

Unsubscribing? Email HPFGU-OTChatter-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
____________________________________________________________ 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From golden_faile at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  6 16:38:01 2003
From: golden_faile at yahoo.com (golden faile)
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 08:38:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Ever So Evil household objects
In-Reply-To: <20030306061116.VTXI6910.out005.verizon.net@[127.0.0.1]>
Message-ID: <20030306163801.44518.qmail@web41107.mail.yahoo.com>


HA! I laughed when I read this because I recall a friend of mine relaying a story to me about getting up to get something from the kitchen at night, now mind you he had a ranch house. However, the hallways were really long and the kitchen far from his room. He had the kind of house that had glass from floor to ceiling on one side and he could see outside(his backyard) for a long stretch. Needless to say, he started imagining all sorts of things from his room to the kitchen and back, he was telling me that he always took the last stretch at a sprint( It was much funnier when he told it to me)...*giggle* . At that point I realized that it was okay to sleep with the light on at 13 ( I still have to have some form of light on, I have a very overactive imagination), everyone has something that he/she is afraid of.
 
Laila
 the.gremlin at verizon.net wrote:bel:
"Walking past windows at night worried me, too. As though something could smash through, grab me, and drag me out. Only at night, of course."

Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
var lrec_target="_top";var lrec_URL = new Array();lrec_URL[1] = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.2974023.4304644.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1707544108:HM/A=1430287/R=0/id=flashurl/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405";var link="javascript:LRECopenWindow(1)";var lrec_flashfile = 'http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/intl_library_of_poetry/yahoo_300x250.swf?clickTAG='+link+'';var lrec_altURL = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.2974023.4304644.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1707544108:HM/A=1430287/R=1/id=altimgurl/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405";var lrec_altimg = "http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/intl_library_of_poetry/yahoo_300x250.gif";var lrec_width = 300;var lrec_height = 250;
________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________

Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the group's Admin Files!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/

Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying!

Is your message...
An announcement of merchandise, news etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements.
Movie-related? Send it to HPFGU-Movie.
Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups.
None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter.
Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com

Unsubscribing? Email HPFGU-OTChatter-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
____________________________________________________________ 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From golden_faile at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  6 16:52:28 2003
From: golden_faile at yahoo.com (golden faile)
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 08:52:28 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Ever So Evil household objects
In-Reply-To: <20030306061116.VTXI6910.out005.verizon.net@[127.0.0.1]>
Message-ID: <20030306165228.24703.qmail@web41111.mail.yahoo.com>


 
 the.gremlin at verizon.net wrote:

Acire:
I also once saw neon colored happy faces on my wall. Or it may have been a dream...This was also when I was under 10, though I can't remember the exact age...


Laila:

I've had that experience(sort of), I was about 8 or 9 I can't remember. I was sleeping and I remember rolling over and sitting up. There was a glow coming from the corner of my room from top to bottom. It was a blurry glow, sort of human shaped, but I was calm, I was definitely not afraid. I wasn't asleep, at least I don't think I was. 

 

Now this scared me, my son was about 1 yrs old and we were home alone. He kept talking about Diego. I asked "Who is Diego?" and he pointed out of my room and into the hallway and said

"right there MaMa." I could not freak out and react, and I thought to myself that maybe it was an imaginary friend. But at 1? It still gives me the creeps.

 

Laila

http://www.underground-newslet.com
The Underground--Fixing your addiction for writing.

"So sorry-dozed off-what have I missed?"
Prof. Lockhart, Chamber of Secrets



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
var lrec_target="_top";var lrec_URL = new Array();lrec_URL[1] = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.2974023.4304644.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1707544108:HM/A=1430287/R=0/id=flashurl/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405";var link="javascript:LRECopenWindow(1)";var lrec_flashfile = 'http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/intl_library_of_poetry/yahoo_300x250.swf?clickTAG='+link+'';var lrec_altURL = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.2974023.4304644.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1707544108:HM/A=1430287/R=1/id=altimgurl/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405";var lrec_altimg = "http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/intl_library_of_poetry/yahoo_300x250.gif";var lrec_width = 300;var lrec_height = 250;
________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________

Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the group's Admin Files!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/

Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying!

Is your message...
An announcement of merchandise, news etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements.
Movie-related? Send it to HPFGU-Movie.
Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups.
None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter.
Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com

Unsubscribing? Email HPFGU-OTChatter-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
____________________________________________________________ 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From jenw118 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  6 17:35:16 2003
From: jenw118 at yahoo.com (Jennifer R. Wilson)
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 09:35:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Happy World Book Day
In-Reply-To: <b47930+p3q2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20030306173516.75750.qmail@web14007.mail.yahoo.com>



<snip>
It has made me wonder though, what has happened to all the other book 
characters? Do the children who first fell in love with Harry 5 years 
ago still like him, or is he now uncool? As an adult, my friends have 
always thought I was mad for loving the Potterverse so much, but 
unlike teenagers, I'm not so influenced by peergroup pressure.

Are teenagers still allowed to like Harry? 

Ali
</snip>

You've brought up a very good question!  I am answering this only from the point of view of having a teenage sister.  

She's told me that in her junior high, they're not allowed to take book tests over the Harry Potter books.  So, I'd say from a school's point of view that they're trying to force the kids to read other books.

She tells me she doesn't talk much about liking Harry at school, because her friends ignore her.  

But once she comes home-she writes fanfiction, she is totally into Harry Potter.  That's the only books she'll read with ease.  She's brilliant, just HATES to read.  

I think maybe it may be this particular school that isn't so fond of him--but it's possibly also the age.  If the teenagers admit they like him--they fear they won't fit in.  

I've probably rambled on long enough, but this is my take on things :)  Your daughter's school sounds awesome for what they did though!

Jennifer


 



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From jenP_97 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  6 18:04:45 2003
From: jenP_97 at yahoo.com (jenp_97)
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 18:04:45 -0000
Subject: Ghosts and other things...
In-Reply-To: <20030306165228.24703.qmail@web41111.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <b482jt+vjhp@eGroups.com>

Laila wrote:

> Now this scared me, my son was about 1 yrs old and 
> we were home alone. He kept talking about Diego. I 
> asked "Who is Diego?" and he pointed out of my room 
> and into the hallway and said
> 
> "right there MaMa." I could not freak out and react, 
> and I thought to myself that maybe it was an imaginary 
> friend. But at 1? It still gives me the creeps.
> 

I remember when Ginger was younger, she'd freak me out 
every once in a while by "channeling" my mother and 
talking about her.  My mom died when I was 8, and we 
named Ginger after her (Virginia).  Anyway, she used 
to say weird things like, "When you were a baby in *my* 
tummy," and, "When you were a little girl, I'd 
[something], too."  She called me Jenny once, too, 
which nobody else EVER calls me, but my mother called 
me all the time.  And there were a couple of times when 
she would say things like, "Grandma Ginger likes this 
picture!" or "I like it when Grandma Ginger tells me a 
story at night."

She hasn't said things like that for about a 
year-and-a-half, though.  I could don my linguistics 
cap and just explain it away by saying that she was 
too young to mentally grasp personal pronouns, and I 
could say that she wasn't old enough to understand the 
difference between real and pretend... but that would 
take some of the magic out of it, wouldn't it?  I 
mean, I'd LOVE to know that my mother was hanging 
around and getting to know my children.

JenP, who wishes her mom would talk to her sometimes, 
too...







From yalithb223 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  6 18:05:32 2003
From: yalithb223 at yahoo.com (yalithb223)
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 18:05:32 -0000
Subject: Ever So Evil Household Objects & Bloody Mary
Message-ID: <b482lc+t025@eGroups.com>

I know what you guys mean about being scared to be alone at night.  I
was always afraid that there was something under my bed that would
reach out and grab my feet if I stuck them over the edge.  Silly now
that I think about it.  The worst thing used to be when I had to got
to the bathroom at night.  I always jumped out of my bed so I'd never
be close enough fotr the "Boogey man" to get me.  
I was afraid of the open closet door too.  Although I'm not sure why?
 I don't know if I thought something lived there or not.  My dad is a
big science fiction buff and used to make my sister and I watch movies
with him, so we both got some strange ideas about what kind of weird
stuff we might see if we looked out the windows at night!
We had Bloody Mary at my high school too. Except the rumor went that
she was a girl who had killed herself in this one particular bathroom.
 If you went in there and said "bloody mary" three times in front of
the mirror you would see her face.  I don't think she was supposed to
do anything bad to you, but I was still scared to go to that bathroom.
 I'd walk to the other side of the building to avoid it if I could.  
We are afraid of such silly things as children, but I find myself
still afraid sometimes.  Espcially if I'm at home alone at night.  I
hear the strangest noises, when it is all really just my old house and
my dog, lol.  
Jessica




From yalithb223 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  6 18:09:56 2003
From: yalithb223 at yahoo.com (yalithb223)
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 18:09:56 -0000
Subject: Ghosts and other things...
In-Reply-To: <b482jt+vjhp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b482tk+b12e@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "jenp_97" <jenP_97 at y...> wrote:
> Laila wrote:
> 
> > Now this scared me, my son was about 1 yrs old and 
> > we were home alone. He kept talking about Diego. I 
> > asked "Who is Diego?" and he pointed out of my room 
> > and into the hallway and said
> > 
> > "right there MaMa." I could not freak out and react, 
> > and I thought to myself that maybe it was an imaginary 
> > friend. But at 1? It still gives me the creeps.
> > 
> 
> I remember when Ginger was younger, she'd freak me out 
> every once in a while by "channeling" my mother and 
> talking about her.  My mom died when I was 8, and we 
> named Ginger after her (Virginia).  Anyway, she used 
> to say weird things like, "When you were a baby in *my* 
> tummy," and, "When you were a little girl, I'd 
> [something], too."  She called me Jenny once, too, 
> which nobody else EVER calls me, but my mother called 
> me all the time.  And there were a couple of times when 
> she would say things like, "Grandma Ginger likes this 
> picture!" or "I like it when Grandma Ginger tells me a 
> story at night."
Me:
I like to think children are more open to spirits and other things.  I
know of a lot of children whose "imaginary friends" turn out to be
ghosts or even angels.  Maybe because they are "Fresher" and more open
to miracles than we disillusioned adults are.
-Jessica




From pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no  Thu Mar  6 19:18:53 2003
From: pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no (pengolodh_sc)
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 19:18:53 -0000
Subject: On the topic of scary things in the dark
Message-ID: <b486ut+lqec@eGroups.com>

This strip brought a smile to my mouth:




http://spray.nettavisen.no/shared/nemi/img/05.03.03.gif




Best regards


Christian Stub?


who wonders why the formatting on his previous message was so strange.





From smotgreg at hotmail.com  Thu Mar  6 21:25:11 2003
From: smotgreg at hotmail.com (sandon96)
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 21:25:11 -0000
Subject: Ever So Evil Household Objects & Bloody Mary
In-Reply-To: <b482lc+t025@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b48ebn+7n92@eGroups.com>

Man, I'm in my thirties and I still freak out having to walk by a 
mirror at night because of Bloody Mary.  I have sworn not to tell my 
son any ghost stories because my mom would always scare the crap out of 
me with them. Here's another crazy mirror story:

I was on a historical house tour in Denver when I was 12 or 13.  Mom 
and I had just arrived at the Grant-Humphrey's mansion. Pinpricks were 
felt along my spine and as we entered, I had the uncanny sense to not 
look at any of the mirrors, or any reflective surface at all.  I 
couldn't wait to get out of there. Mounting feelings of panic invaded 
every sense of my body as I stared at my mother's feet the entire time.  
When we climbed the steps to the second story balcony, dread overcame 
me.  Reaching the balcony, I stood next to the rail, where I had a 
sudden horrid feeling of being pushed over and falling to the landing 
below.  I looked over the rail, and there *she* was. It was a young 
woman whom I had used to dream about when I was younger. Mom grabbed me 
by then, as I had turn white "as a ghost." I could not get out of there 
fast enough, and no, there was never a story of such an event 
happening.

Other things that have freaked me out:

Navajo shape shifters

Driving through the res on night (from Durango, CO to Phoenix, AZ) I 
was staring out the window as my husband was driving. For a brief 
instant, I thought I saw a shape shifter (a running Indian turning into 
a coyote). Over the next hill there was a car accident, a pretty 
serious one.  I have never looked out the side windows at night again 
when on the res.

Virginia City, Montana

Supposedly one of the murder capitals of the Gold Rush. My husband and 
I stopped there on our honeymoon heading to Glacier National Park.  
That town "hummed" for me. I couldn't sleep all night - it was too 
much. Greg suggested we leave that night, but I couldn't bring myself 
to go out at night.  The next morning - outta there!

Stacie 





From boggles at earthlink.net  Fri Mar  7 01:28:03 2003
From: boggles at earthlink.net (Jennifer Boggess Ramon)
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 19:28:03 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Happy World Book Day
In-Reply-To: <b47930+p3q2@eGroups.com>
References: <b47930+p3q2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <p05200f00ba8da5d1dace@[192.168.1.100]>

At 10:49 AM +0000 3/6/03, Ali wrote:
>
>Are teenagers still allowed to like Harry?

Considering how loud my Algebra II classes cheered when I wrote the 
announced release date for OoP on the blackboard, they are 'round 
here.  (One of them brought GoF to class today - he'd checked it out 
of the school library.)

-- 

  - Boggles, aka J. C. B. Ramon			boggles at earthlink.net
"It is not knowledge, but the act of learning, not possession but the 
act of getting there, which grants the greatest enjoyment. "
	- Gauss, in a Letter to Bolyai, 1808.



From melclaros at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  7 01:56:28 2003
From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros)
Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 01:56:28 -0000
Subject: Ghosts and other things...
In-Reply-To: <b482tk+b12e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b48u8c+a3nm@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "yalithb223" 
<yalithb223 at y...> wrote:
> I like to think children are more open to spirits and other 
things.  I
> know of a lot of children whose "imaginary friends" turn out to be
> ghosts or even angels.  Maybe because they are "Fresher" and more 
open
> to miracles than we disillusioned adults are.
> -Jessica


I think I agree. My son used to ask me questions...did I remember 
about when "we used to live (somewhere else)?" He'd go into exquisite 
detail about places been and experienced he'd had. Odd at 2. A few 
years later my daughter came along and held great long conversations 
with her "pretty angel" for a year or so. She'd even sing to her. 
(I'm guessing it was a her since her name seemed to be Pretty Angel--
at least the poor thing tolerated being called that.)

Melpomene




From catlady at wicca.net  Fri Mar  7 04:30:43 2003
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 04:30:43 -0000
Subject: Hagridddd's education rant ( Re: Reading, Writing, and Multiple Choice)
In-Reply-To: <b46hha+pl3u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b4979j+bt61@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Haggridd" 
<jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:
> 
> there are numerous reports that the per student cost is far higher 
> in the public system.  In my dictionary, it says that that is the 
> precise definiton of "inefficient"; its denotation, if you will. 

I have seen some of those reports analysed to reveal that the MODE 
average cost per student in the specific public system was lower than 
in the comparison private schools, but the MEAN average cost per 
student in the specific public system was higher because it included 
the fantastically high costs of particular disabled students ... one 
child was so disabled that even with an oxygen tank and a full-time 
private nurse attendent she physically couldn't live in a classroom, 
so the school district (under the non-discrimination law requiring 
the taxpayer to pay for a "free appropriate public education" for 
EVERY child) had to pay something like a hundred thousand dollars a 
year to house/educate this child in a specialised school/hospital ... 
 




From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  7 06:49:54 2003
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 06:49:54 -0000
Subject: Hagridddd's education rant ( Re: Reading, Writing, and Multiple Choice)
In-Reply-To: <b4979j+bt61@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b49fei+aj6k@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince 
Winston)" <catlady at w...> wrote:
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Haggridd" 
> <jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:
> > 
> > there are numerous reports that the per student cost is far 
higher 
> > in the public system.  In my dictionary, it says that that is the 
> > precise definiton of "inefficient"; its denotation, if you will. 
> 
> I have seen some of those reports analysed to reveal that the MODE 
> average cost per student in the specific public system was lower 
than 
> in the comparison private schools, but the MEAN average cost per 
> student in the specific public system was higher because it 
included 
> the fantastically high costs of particular disabled students ...

You have a valid point, and a rather good one.  I would like to see 
such a calculation made for successful public school systems to 
compare them to failed systems and in turn to better private scools 
vs. poorer private schools.  

But would any kind of modal average not reflect that best case 
scenario of only the pupils who require the least resources, and 
therefor exclude all those disabled student costs perforce?

Haggridd (double "g", double "d")





From melclaros at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  7 17:11:55 2003
From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros)
Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 17:11:55 -0000
Subject: Vouchers and "Flying by Night"
In-Reply-To: <b46hha+pl3u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b4ajsr+q0qq@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Haggridd" 

wrote:
The accreditation process takes more than a single year. 
Fly-by-night private schools are not going to get a single voucher 
dollar.



And you are WRONG!
They *are* getting them right now in Florida. I suggested you do some 
research earlier, apparently you ignored me. I'll make it easy for 
you. Go to the St. Petersburg Times or Tampa Tribune websites (I'm 
sure you could find similar material in other FL papers, but these 
are in my area) and run a search on "McKay Scholarships". You'll be 
shocked.
Now to be honest, the McKay plan on paper is a good one. On paper it 
is a voucher program for disabled students that allows parents to 
choose a private school which they believe can better serve their 
child. 
That having been said, go on and read how they're actually being 
used. If you're having trouble, you can narrow your search to a 
recent topic, look for "Excellence Academy". The "Excellence Academy" 
is a "faith based private school" being run by a woman with multiple 
bankruptcies in a mansion currently being auctioned off for yet 
another bankruptcy. This house has no Certificate of Occupancy, no 
power or water service and has been cited for numerous code 
violations by the city. When "Found Out", she claimed to have closed 
the school, but was discovered to be "home schooling" the same 
children who were seen wandering about the grounds of this house 
before they city moved in to investigate. This woman was 
collecting...can you guess? STATE VOUCHERS. Do you know what these 
DISABLED (?) students were doing? Well one (elementary aged) was 
spotted by neigbors slicing away at the overgrown lawn with a 
machete. 
Please notice I have said the CITY has stepped in here. Only the CITY 
and all they can do is enforce building codes. NOT ONE SINGLE 
representative from the STATE has shown any interest in this 
situation. How did she get these vouchers? EASY. Fill in child's 
name, fill in school name and the money arrives. NO checking by the 
state, no accreditation, as far as I know, no request for any 
description of the program or facilities! And May I Remind You: These 
Vouchers are for DISABLED CHILDREN. THE NEEDIEST OF THE NEEDY!

Melpomene, who needs to go soak her head in ice-water.




From lupinesque at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  7 18:26:05 2003
From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z)
Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 18:26:05 -0000
Subject: Education rants
In-Reply-To: <b4ajsr+q0qq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b4ao7t+csvv@eGroups.com>

*Amygeist floats gently into OTC's airspace, an arsenal of ice-water-
filled water balloons at the ready*

Ahem.  I love education rants, having been trained in the art of 
Poltergeistery by an Educational Institution Geist of everyone's 
acquaintance, but I'll take a page from the Master and drop these on 
the heads of those whose tones are disrespectful of each other.  
Please, reread your message a few times and think about how it would 
be to receive it before hitting Send. 

Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!
Amy Z

------------------------------------------------------
We need not think alike to love alike.  ~Francis David




From smotgreg at hotmail.com  Fri Mar  7 18:38:57 2003
From: smotgreg at hotmail.com (Greg Johnson)
Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 10:38:57 -0800
Subject: Education Rant: Missing Link
Message-ID: <F13b039UFW1yvpy2Hn70003b034@hotmail.com>

I have read the past educational rants with interest, and am glad to know 
that the arguements stay the same. However, IMHO, there is a big missing 
link to improving schools and that is parental involvement/accountability.

Of course children are going to do better in private schools. You pay for 
it. We all want our investments to do well, so we keep track of them. When I 
taught sixth grade, several of our students were from the private Catholic 
school (which only went to 8th grade). They were not miles ahead in 
knowledge, but they did know a few more basic skills and had better writing 
abilites then the public school students. Most of their parents called me 
once a week, wrote letters of encouragement, attended all conferences, and 
scheduled a conference themselves if something seemed questionable. Their 
children were exposed to music, sports, and travel. They were a dream to 
work with because they were so well-rounded for twelve year olds. The public 
school students were a mixed bag. Some were very similiar to the private 
school kids. Yet, many of my students from the public system had parents who 
would only call if I called them first, rarely attended conferences, and had 
kids who would be home alone after school instead of being involved on sport 
teams or music lessons. The Catholic school parents also cared enough for 
their children's emotional well-being by putting them in the public system 
before high school, so they could develop a peer group with the rest of the 
sixth graders who had converged together at middle school.

My point of why private school students do better: You put your money where 
your mouth is. That is, if education is something you truly value, and you 
are willing to pay for it, you are going to be more involved then someone 
who sees public education as getting a "freebie."

My first school was the school "on the hill":brand new, servicing a small 
bedroom community outside a large city, most parents were older, educated, 
and employed by large firms. This school ranked second for test scores in 
the district. My students arrived at school healthy, well fed, well dressed, 
and armed with life experiences of travel, sports, music, and books. 
Moreover, the parents held groups before and after school to teach the 
students foreign languages, leathermaking, space, etc. All of this was free. 
However, I still had a few students struggling with the first grade 
curriculum.  Some were "victims" of bad divorces, some were from families 
who were not involved with their children. The one I remember the most was a 
little boy who wore designer clothes, and whose claim to fame was a race car 
bed. He had ever toy imaginable, but no crayons. Mom was too busy to buy him 
any. Mom and Dad were too busy to read with him. I'm not joking. At a 
conference where I suggested they read to him more at home, Mom's comment 
was they didn't have enough time and was there someone I could recommend 
that they could pay to come in and read to him?

My point: Money does not buy everything, including education (i.e. 
vouchers). Parental involvement is what counts.

To reiterate the point above is the second school where I taught. Out in the 
middle of nowhere, this school serviced the children of dry land farmers - 
an oxymoron if I've ever heard one. Ever try to farm dry land? You know, all 
living things need water to grow. So these kids were dirt poor (well, they 
were rich in dirt), but oh, so loved. I loved this school. It was the heart 
of the community. In fact, our school nurse/secretary was related to over 
90% of the student body. Every class had cousins, near cousins, and whatnot, 
as everybody was related to someone else. Siblings abounded as most of these 
families had upwards of 4 children. (Yes, a religion was predominant here) 
Every Friday night was pizza and roller skating in the gym. All the teachers 
would stay late, and even our spouses would drive out from town (30 minutes 
away) to join in the festivities. The kids came in with more real life 
experience then you could shake a stick at: life, death, rounding up cattle, 
attending pow-wows, raising stock of their own. We were third in the 
district for test scores, and if I could have the choice, this is the school 
I would want my child to attend.

My point: Poverty does not hamper education, if the parents are involved and 
empower their children to always do their best.

Last school, ugh. Let's just say that overall the parental motto was "we 
don't give a hoot, and you can't make me." Why these people ever had 
children was beyond me. They treated their dogs better. Out of a class of 
28, 26 were from broken homes, 5 had parents in jail, at least 1 parent 
showed up at a field trip high on drugs (I'm sure there were more drug 
users, but I don't have the evidence), no one volunteered, rarely were my 
calls returned, and often I had to deal with a drunk so and so shouting at 
me when I did call, 3 spoke no English, and their parents were illiterate in 
their native language, so they really didn't know that one either.  I had to 
hide a child in my office so her biological father with no visitation rights 
who showed up at school threating us all with a gun could not get her. I had 
a mother with a flower tattooed breast (it was falling out of her shirt) 
come teetering in one morning to call me a b**** in front of my classroom 
because I sent homework home that was too hard to do with her son. Will 
vouchers help these people? I think not. Would more school money help? 
Maybe. We could hire more conselors and special education teachers to help 
with these children who were never read to, and who have suffered more hurt 
from those who were supposed to love and care for them. I was on a first 
name basis with social services. They did not intervene until the last straw 
was broken. Like the time I had a child trying to strangle himself with his 
shoelace and bang his head violently on the floor. Like the time I spent 
most of the morning with a student moaning under her desk, crawling under 
there with her to listen to all the horrid things her mother's boyfriend had 
done, then to have her ripped away kicking and screaming as the service took 
her to who knows where. To have foster care kids in my classroom for maybe a 
week or two at a time before they were shuffled off to somewhere else.

But it was *my* fault as a teacher that these students were not learning or 
passing their tests. If this was a merit pay system, I would have been going 
backwards on the scale.  The kids who stayed the whole year, tried to do 
their best, and could believe that I loved them and cared for them enough 
that they could do it, did improve. Those who had been to 5 different 
schools by 2nd grade, and so jaded by the adults in their lives did not. And 
what's to become of them? Where are they going to get the help they need? If 
schools don't have the money, the resources, or the specially trained 
teachers and support staff for these kinds of students, then our society is 
crumbling faster than we can build it.

It's not always the schools, folks. We don't get our students until they are 
five or six years of age. Then, we only torture them for 6 hours at the 
most. Who's in charge for the rest of the 18 hours of the day?

Stacie










_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*  
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus




From julia at thequiltbug.com  Fri Mar  7 21:46:35 2003
From: julia at thequiltbug.com (Calliope)
Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 13:46:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Time Travel
Message-ID: <20030307134637.17742.h007.c011.wm@mail.thequiltbug.com.criticalpath.net>

This whole time travel bit on the main list (Harry 1/Harry 2 and the Patronus in
PoA, and the new Ron is Dumbledore theory) has me thinking about another time
travel book I've read, and the author's theory on TT.  I'm sending this to the
OT list, as it's not totally HP, but maybe this author's look at TT may be the
same as JKR's. 

In the Outlander series by Diana Gabaldon, the main character, Claire, is
accidently thrown back 200 years in the past, from just after WW2 to the
beginnings of Charles Stuart's attempt to regain the throne of Scotland.  (I'm
fuzzy on Scottish history and haven't read these books for a while, being too
wrapped up in HP lately.)  :)  

After she realizes she's stuck there, she starts building a life there, and ends
up facing a couple of time travel paradoxes/dilemmas.  

First of all, she runs into a man named Jack Randall, who is the ancestor of her
husband Frank (from her post WW2 life).  Later on, due to events that she
caused, he is rendered...er...impotent...before fathering any children, yet
Claire still has her wedding ring from her WW2 life, meaning that somehow Frank
must still exist, or else she wouldn't have the ring.  (The Grandfather
Paradox.)  Turns out later on that Jack's brother is really the father of the
child that is Frank's ancestor, not Jack, and so Frank still exists (which is
confirmed later on when Claire returns to the future). 

Second of all, she knows that Charles Stuart's activities will result in the
Highland clans being decimated when they get behind him in battle with the
English, and so she tries to set events in motion that will prevent his rise to
power from happening.  She tries ruining his business deals, cutting off his
sources of funding, along with other things, but he eventually finds other
sources of funding and history proceeds as normal.

Gabaldon's theory of time travel is basically that people can't change large
details of history; small things can be changed, but because history is
influenced by so many different factors it would be impossible for a single
person to dramatically alter history.

(I'm beginning to get Gabaldon time-travel and Rowling time-travel sort of
blurred; please forgive me.  :)

I'm starting to think that time travellers may influence history in very
insignificant ways; things that have already happened will find a way to happen
again, maybe not in the way they appear to happen (ie, Harry and Hermione
*thought* Buckbeak was dead, though they didn't see it, but really he wasn't).

Say that Frank had originally been Jack's descendant.  Jack can't father
children, indirectly due to the effects of Claire (the time traveler), but Frank
is destined to be born, so it ends up that Jack's brother is Frank's ancestor
instead of Jack.  It was destined to happen, it just didn't happen the way
everyone assumed.


Okay, with the Ron!Dumbledore theory, one problem is how Ron!Dumbledore could
let all the bad things happen that he knows are going to happen anyway.  Maybe
he *tried* to save the Potters (offering to be their Secret-Keeper, knowing that
Peter would betray them), but of course they turned him down.  Or maybe he
*tried* to force Scabbers out of Animagi form, but was interrupted or something
and never was able to do it.  

Okay, now my head hurts.

Has anyone else read time-travel fiction, and wants to share the author's
theories, in hopes of figuring out either the Harry and the Patronus confusion
or the Ron!Dumbledore theory?

Calliope

*who wishes she had a time turner so she could go back and make Alfonso Cuaron
put Sean Biggerstaff in PoA...but wait, time travelers can't alter
history...dang it...*

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Calliopes_fics/
http://www.thedarkarts.org/authorLinks/Calliope/
http://www.riddikulus.org/authorLinks/Calliope/



From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com  Sat Mar  8 01:38:26 2003
From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent)
Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 01:38:26 -0000
Subject: Time Travel
In-Reply-To: <20030307134637.17742.h007.c011.wm@mail.thequiltbug.com.criticalpath.net>
Message-ID: <b4bhii+g9k8@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Calliope" <julia at t...> 
wrote:
> Has anyone else read time-travel fiction, and wants to share the 
> author's theories, in hopes of figuring out either the Harry and 
> the Patronus confusion or the Ron!Dumbledore theory?

Well, IMHO, the idea that Ron and Dumbledore are the same person 
defies all logic (just look at their interactions in the books!) but 
I don't there's any Patronus "confusion" per se.

This site:
 
http://robertaheinlein.com/reviews/shortstories/byhisbootstraps.htm

has an extensive review of Heinlein's story "By His Bootstraps," 
considered to be the granddaddy of "fixed" time travel stories.  
There are also references to other stories which use the fixed 
timeline theory.  

Harry conjuring the Patronus comes under this type of time-travel; 
he already knew he was going to do it (although at first he 
mistakenly thought it was his dad), and his witnessing it was a kind 
of "premonition," if you will (or a self-fulfilling prophecy).  It 
was both something happening in the present and a peek into the 
future for Harry (because in HIS future he would conjure the 
Patronus).

Jack Finney's novel "Time and Again," and its sequel subscribe to 
the other theory, which is that time can be and has been changed 
numerous times. This page has some good information about it:  
http://members.aol.com/leahj/timea.htm . I adore this book; it's 
very well-written and researched and has numerous illustrations.  
When people return from time traveling they're "debriefed," and more 
than once it is discovered that someone who used to exist no longer 
does because of the time-traveler's mere existence in an earlier 
time and place for a brief period (and well-removed from 
the "missing" person, who now only exists in the time-traveler's 
memory).

"The Coming of the Quantum Cats" by Fred Pohl is another example of 
multiple-universe time-travel fiction, reviewed here: 
http://glinda.lrsm.upenn.edu/~weeks/if/review9.html .  There's some 
very funny stuff about the Reagan years.  (It's from the eighties.)

While I can read each type of time travel fiction without getting 
confused, as long as I know what the author's a priori assumptions 
are, I think that JKR isn't entirely consistent with the "fixed" 
camp.  On the one hand, when Buckbeak is discovered to be gone, 
Dumbledore is said to have "a note of amusement in his voice."   I 
believe this is because he saw Harry and Hermione making off with 
Buckbeak, which is how he knew that he would later recommend the use 
of the Time Turner to Hermione (I believe he also worked out as soon 
as he saw this that they must have used the Time Turner, and that he 
knew they had left the hut with Ron because--another theory of mine--
he can see through Invisibility Cloaks a la Moody, either with those 
blue eyes of his or his spectacles that are always so prominently 
described.)

Anyway, the inconsistency comes, I believe, when Hermione stops 
Harry from entering the hut to grab Pettigrew.  She tells 
him, "Nobody's SUPPOSED TO [emphasis mine] change time, nobody!"  
She doesn't say that it's impossible to change time--she says you're 
not SUPPOSED to, and Hermione is nothing if not precise with her 
language.  She also tells him that McGonagall told her (presumably 
to prevent her abusing the Time Turner in just such a manner) 
that "loads of them [time traveling wizards] ended up killing their 
past or future selves by mistake!"

Now, it would be possible to kill your future self if that self 
traveled back in time, you were surprised and/or suspicious because 
of this, and attacked your doppelganger, killing the other you.  
However, unless you were somehow unaware of its BEING you (perhaps 
extreme age on the part of the other person, or appearance altered 
in some other way) after that you would be aware that this was going 
to happen.  All you would need to do is avoid time travel altogether 
in order to sidestep this gruesome fate.  This would allow you to 
CHANGE TIME by simply avoiding time travel ever after.  One might 
still have a story that used the fixed-time theory, in which the 
protagonist would be hurled back in time through no fault or choice 
of his own, leading to his (evidently) inevitable demise at his own 
hand.  But if the person had any choice, I doubt he would meddle in 
time knowing that a mistake would probably lead to his death in an 
earlier time.

However, it seems patently impossible, with a fixed-time theory, for 
someone to kill his PAST self inasmuch as the FUTURE person would no 
longer exist.  If you travel back in time and kill yourself 
yesterday, you can't have traveled back in time.  Unless you just 
changed time.  Which means a time paradox, in a case like this.  Or, 
if you travel forward in time and your future self kills the time-
traveling self, wouldn't the future self automatically disappear as 
well? (Or you might be creating an alternate timeline that you 
cannot experience because it is one in which you had already died.)  
If McGonagall had only warned Hermione about people killing their 
future selves, it would be possible (see above) to say that JKR is 
consistent about the fixed-time theory.  Inclusion of the warning 
about killing one's PAST self (an activity that implies creation of 
alternate universes or time paradoxes) negates this.  I hope that's 
not too confusing!

I wrote a fic (The Time of Good Intentions) about Harry changing 
time using a powerful spell, in part because he seemed to find it so 
tempting in PoA.  Hermione was really the only thing stopping him 
from revealing Peter, or grabbing the Invisibility Cloak before 
Snape.  It still seems, however, that JKR has left the door open to 
other time-travel theories, and I'll be interested to see whether 
she uses time travel in the future books.

--Barb

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent
http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb


 




From julia at thequiltbug.com  Sat Mar  8 01:47:42 2003
From: julia at thequiltbug.com (Calliope)
Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 17:47:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Time Travel
Message-ID: <20030307174742.22866.h012.c011.wm@mail.thequiltbug.com.criticalpath.net>

<big snip of Barb's recommendations>

Thanks, Barb, I'll have to check those out!

>>--another theory of mine--
he can see through Invisibility Cloaks a la Moody, either with those 
blue eyes of his or his spectacles that are always so prominently 
described.)

I wish she would explain how he can do that!  It's been driving me nuts.



>>>If you travel back in time and kill yourself 
yesterday, you can't have traveled back in time.? Unless you just 
changed time.? Which means a time paradox, in a case like this.? Or, 
if you travel forward in time and your future self kills the time-
traveling self, wouldn't the future self automatically disappear as 
well? (Or you might be creating an alternate timeline that you 
cannot experience because it is one in which you had already died.)

That's the kind of thing that gives me a headache.  My poor brain.  (Unless
there is some kind of parallel universe going on where all these things are
happining simultaneously, instead of linearly, and when an event happens in one
time line it happens in all other time lines at the same instant.)


>>I wrote a fic (The Time of Good Intentions) about Harry changing 
time using a powerful spell, in part because he seemed to find it so 
tempting in PoA.? 

Oh, yes, I thought about ToGI right after I sent that email.  That was a very
interesting look at what would have happened had Lily not died!  I enjoyed it
very much.

Calliope

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Calliopes_fics/
http://www.thedarkarts.org/authorLinks/Calliope/
http://www.riddikulus.org/authorLinks/Calliope/



From rvotaw at i-55.com  Sat Mar  8 03:54:59 2003
From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw)
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 21:54:59 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Happy World Book Day
References: <b47930+p3q2@eGroups.com> <p05200f00ba8da5d1dace@[192.168.1.100]>
Message-ID: <013101c2e526$7dcb7940$87a0cdd1@RVotaw>

At 10:49 AM +0000 3/6/03, Ali wrote:
>
>Are teenagers still allowed to like Harry?

I don't know exactly.  At my school the highest grade is 6th (generally speaking that's 11 and 12 year olds, but some are a bit older.  Some a good bit older.) grade.  I teach the 4th, 5th, and 6th graders in the afternoons.  They all know (as does everyone else at the school) about my, um, interest in Harry Potter.  Therefore if anyone's reading it at the time, they make a point of carrying the book around so that I'll see it.  Some of them, on the rare (ha!) occasion they are in a bad mood use Harry as a point of insult.  For example, we may be discussing Greek architecture and they suddenly burst out with "I think Harry Potter is boring!"  For that one I have the perfect come back.  I nod slightly and say, "Yes, well, I suppose you're still a bit young for Harry."  Their eyes get big and they fall silent right away.  Works every time.  

One of the sixth grade teachers at my school has been reading HP to her classes, she's currently on Prisoner of Azkaban.  She told me today that without fail, every time she picks up the book at least one student in her class pops up to say "Ms. Votaw likes Harry Potter."  Or "Ms. Votaw has a Harry Potter booksack."  Or "Ms. Votaw has Harry Potter on her keychain."  Or "Ms. Votaw has Harry Potter posters in her room." or "Ms. Votaw has a Gryffindor banner in her class."  And so on.  My badge of honor.  I'm famous.

What is my point?  I don't know.  I think it depends on the child. The ones I work with are fairly below level, so it is nothing unusual at all if they don't develop an interest in Harry until they are nearly teenagers.  (Except, of course, for my first graders who will be reading Harry as soon as they learn to read well enough I'm sure.)

Richelle


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From urbana at charter.net  Sat Mar  8 04:13:39 2003
From: urbana at charter.net (Anne)
Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 04:13:39 -0000
Subject: Happy World Book Day
In-Reply-To: <013101c2e526$7dcb7940$87a0cdd1@RVotaw>
Message-ID: <b4bqlj+8pv8@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Richelle Votaw" 
<rvotaw at i...> wrote:
The ones I work with are fairly below level, so it is nothing unusual 
at all if they don't develop an interest in Harry until they are 
nearly teenagers.  (Except, of course, for my first graders who will 
be reading Harry as soon as they learn to read well enough I'm sure.)
> 

Richelle, my daughter is in 1st grade here in Madison, WI, USA, and 
we are now re-reading SS for the second time after my reading all 4 
books to her in succession (from late July through Thanksgiving of 
last year, 10-20 pages per night for 4 months). After we finished GOF 
she insisted that I re-read POA to her. Then back to SS. I don't 
think she can read much of it herself yet, just a few words or a 
short phrase here or there, but I love how much *she* loves the 
story. I'm thrilled that she and I share a love of these particular 
books. I have noticed that she's got a lot of "movie 
contamination"... she's seen SS (TMTMNBN1) at least 10 times. Tonight 
I read her chapter 9, The Midnight Duel, and she and I had both 
forgotten that Neville was with HRH when they stumbled into the 
forbidden corridor where Fluffy lived. The early part of the chapter 
contains the first flying lesson, of course, and she kept expecting 
Hermione to say "What... an...IDIOT!" which Movie-Hermione said when 
Harry took off on his broom to get Neville's Remembrall back from 
Malfoy.

I'm kind of wandering here (sorry) but I did want to say how nice it 
is to be involved with people like the HPFGU members. Many adults 
wouldn't be caught dead reading HP because they believe it's "for 
children" ... aren't we all glad we know better?? :-)

Anne U
(wondering where Richelle and Haggridd are in Louisiana; I was born 
and grew up in New Orleans... where y'at, dawlins??)





From rvotaw at i-55.com  Sat Mar  8 05:04:31 2003
From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw)
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 23:04:31 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Happy World Book Day
References: <b4bqlj+8pv8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <016701c2e530$35483230$87a0cdd1@RVotaw>

Anne U wrote:

> Richelle, my daughter is in 1st grade here in Madison, WI, USA, and 
> we are now re-reading SS for the second time after my reading all 4 
> books to her in succession (from late July through Thanksgiving of 
> last year, 10-20 pages per night for 4 months). After we finished GOF 

<sigh> How depressing.  Sorry, wonderful for you and your daughter I mean, depressing when I look at my students and their levels of comprehension!  I did attempt to read HP to them, we didn't make it very far.  Two or three of them were interested, but the others just had no idea what was going on.  "No pictures?  What do you mean, no pictures?"  Ah, well.

> I'm kind of wandering here (sorry) but I did want to say how nice it 
> is to be involved with people like the HPFGU members. Many adults 
> wouldn't be caught dead reading HP because they believe it's "for 
> children" ... aren't we all glad we know better?? :-)

Amen to that.  Someday those "other" people will come to understand. :)  I, for one, happily examine the toy section for new HP stuff all the time. :)  And for some odd reason I cannot enter a bookstore without going by the HP section before leaving.  I have no idea why, it's not like OotP is going to magically appear on the shelf.  And how many copies of HP can I have?

> (wondering where Richelle and Haggridd are in Louisiana; I was born 
> and grew up in New Orleans... where y'at, dawlins??)

I don't know about Haggridd, but I'm in Hammond, just about 40 miles north of New Orleans.  

Richelle


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Mar  8 06:45:46 2003
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 06:45:46 -0000
Subject: Education Rant: Missing Link
In-Reply-To: <F13b039UFW1yvpy2Hn70003b034@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <b4c3iq+jqlc@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Stacie "Greg Johnson" 
<smotgreg at h...> wrote:

> He had ever toy imaginable, but no crayons. Mom was too busy to 
> buy him any. Mom and Dad were too busy to read with him. I'm not 
> joking. At a conference where I suggested they read to him more at
> home, Mom's comment was they didn't have enough time and was there 
> someone I could recommend that they could pay to come in and read
> to him?

On the opposite hand, there are parents who really ARE too busy to 
read to their children, or even see their children awake, because 
survival involves working multiple badly-paid jobs with long 
commutes. The parents came to USA in hope of their children having a 
better life, but instead the unsupervised children go into gangs and 
crime. Then something that happens too often is they send the c
hildren home to grandparents to get them away from their gang, but 
instead the children start a branch of their gang in their ancestral 
country and start crime waves that their quiet rural villages have 
never seen before.

> Last school, ugh. Let's just say that overall the parental motto
> was "we don't give a hoot, and you can't make me." Why these people
> ever had children was beyond me. 

In many cases, because they're too stupid/ignorant to know about 
contraception. In other cases, because they were too drunk or stoned 
to remember to USE the contraceptives. A lot of the young teens think 
babies are so cute, and don't comprehend that it takes a lot longer 
to housebreak a baby than a puppy.




From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk  Sat Mar  8 10:35:08 2003
From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte)
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 10:35:08 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)
Subject: Sad News
Message-ID: <3E69C75C.000003.46419@monica>

Did anyone else see that Adam Faith died this morning?

I'm like 20 years too young to care about this - except I do. I loved his
music. he was also a talented actor - not to mention pretty easy on the eyes

My mother used to tease me about the fact that we both thought he was hot -
she said she saw him first (well duh - I am only 26 after all).

He was only 62 - so sad :(

K 



From drednort at alphalink.com.au  Sat Mar  8 12:42:10 2003
From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately)
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 23:42:10 +1100
Subject: Yet another educational opinion
In-Reply-To: <b46hha+pl3u@eGroups.com>
References: <b466ta+ej2j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3E6A7FD2.27980.1CF84F2@localhost>

I've been reading these posts with interest, but haven't had time to post until now. But I 
thought I would weigh in with my personal opinion on one basic issue, just for interests 
sake. I'm not expecting anyone to agree with me - and this is just my opinion.

My perspective is different from that of most posters, because I'm not in the US, and the 
education system in Australia is not identical to any US system - of course, like the US, 
we have a range of systems and because both countries have a range of systems, there 
are often overlaps.

I take a keen interest in educational issues, both here in Australia, and overseas 
including the US. Particularly the US, because things that occur in education there often 
come up over here. I read a lot of educational material from the US - now reading isn't 
everything, but I do have some information.

And I am very interested in improving education - how interested? Well, the reason I 
haven't had much time to post in recent days is because I started my Bachelor of 
Education degree at the start of last week. I'm going to become a teacher. To do this, 
I've given up a six figure income in a job I quite enjoy - I'm that serious about trying to 
improve kids lives and their education.

My educational experience as a child. Mixed. Very mixed. I attended eight different 
schools including the state run primary school with the worst academic standards in my 
state, in a relatively poor area, right up to one of the country's oldest and most 
prestigious private schools - and a bunch in between. State, Catholic, and Independent 
schools.

That's just a bit of background. Now - my personal opinions.

Vouchers. My opinion on these is very divided. I support private schools having access 
to fairly substantial public money - but I don't believe a voucher system is the most 
effective way of handling this. I think the way things are done in Australia works very 
well, and I do think the US education system might benefit greatly by a similar system, 
introduced gradually. 

What happens here is that state schools are the responsibility of the various states - 
and so the vast majority of state funding goes to state schools (private schools get a 
small amount because the state government decides to fund anti-drug/alcohol education 
programs etc/ for all kids). The Federal government (which is not obliged to fund 
education at all) chooses to provide extra resources for schools and a substantial 
amount of that funding goes to private schools.

Overall, state run schools which cater for around 70% of students, receive around 85% 
of all government funds. Private schools, catering for around 30% of students, receive 
about 15% of government funding. Put simply, the amount of taxpayer money private 
school students have spent on their education is significant - but still only around a third 
of that a state school students has spent on theirs.

Limited government funding for private schools is an accepted part of all major parties 
policies - including that of the mildly socialist Labor party. The parties disagree on 
precise numbers, and on precise distribution of the money but all support the basic 
principle.

Why does the left support this policy even though logically it should go against it's 
fundamental principles? Same reason why the right wing parties in Australia generally 
support universal health care despite ideological differences.

Because experience shows it *works*.

And if it works here, it could work in the US - no guarantees, of course, because the 
situations are not identical. But the fact it works in another western democracy, one with 
a lot of similarities to the US suggests it's worth looking at.

What do I mean by it works?

Simply put, limited funding to private schools in Australia has been good for those 
students (and their families) at private schools *and* for those students at state schools.

The case for private school students is simple - it's meant that school fees have either 
been lower or the money has gone further.

The case for state school students is a bit more complex. But put simply, everytime a 
child moves from the state system to the private system, more money becomes available 
for every child in the state system.

Why? I'll give a very simple demonstration. These numbers are representative of the 
theory, not correct and current numbers.

Take a state school with 100 students and an educational budget of $500,000

Average money available to each student is $5,000.

The system changes so students in private schools get $2,000 per student - and as a 
result of these changes some students from the state school now move across to the 
private system.

If five move, that's $10,000 of taxpayer's money.

You now have a state school with 90 students and a budget of $490,000 - or $5,444 
each.

The point is that giving some funding to private schools can actually be of real benefit to 
every child in the state system as well.

It's not automatic, and a lot of care needs to be taken to ensure it works out properly 
(which is the reason I said it should be a gradual process. But it *can* be done.

Transferring some funding to the private sector does *not* have to be at the expense of 
students in state funded schools. Australia has made this work - the US could do so as 
well.

Now - are there benefits to such a system?

IMHO, very real benefits - and let me use myself as an example. This is totally 
anecdotal, of course - but frankly, it's my view that in considering education every effort 
should be made to consider ever individual child as much as possible - and that means 
anecdotal stories can be illuminating.

When I was 12, I endured a year of hell at school Absolute, unadulterated hell. By 
August (school year here runs roughly from late January to early December) I was in 
dire straits. For a variety of reasons, I wound up seeing a psychologist and in 
September he gave my parents a very simple prognosis. I had to change schools - or I 
would have died. Further, he could suggest only three schools in my entire state where I 
had any hope of getting the education I required. All three, very expensive private 
schools.

My dad was a security guard at the time - he earned an OK wage - but nothing special. 
Basically, by sacrificing everything possible, my parents could just scrape together the 
money needed to send me to one of those schools. If those schools had not received 
the limited Federal funding they did, they would have been out of reach. And that would 
have been extremely bad.

What my case indicates is the reason why I support such funding - because it opens 
educational choice to more people than would otherwise have it. And I think educational 
choice is a good thing.

And under the system we have here - when kids leave for the private sector, the state 
sector winds up with more money per child. Consider what that means. If state schools 
are doing poorly, people for whom limited government funding have made private 
schools more accessible, are more likely to move into the private sector - reducing 
pressure on the state schools, and giving them more resources per child to try and fix 
the reasons they are doing poorly.

We've had this system in place now for around 25 years. 25 years ago, there was 
around a twenty five percent difference in academic achievement levels between the 
average state school and the average private school. Today, that difference is less than 
10%. It's a gradual process - but it's one that has worked.

Our system isn't perfect, by any means - if I thought it was, I wouldn't be throwing away 
another career to become a teacher. But it's actually not too bad.

Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought
Shaun Hately |webpage: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html
(ISTJ)       |email: drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200

                       "Almighty Ruler of the all;
                 Whose power extends to great and small;
                 Who guides the stars with steadfast law;
                   Whose least creation fills with awe;
                     Oh grant thy mercy and thy grace;
                     To those who venture into space."




From plumeski at yahoo.com  Sat Mar  8 14:44:28 2003
From: plumeski at yahoo.com (gulplum)
Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 14:44:28 -0000
Subject: Adam Faith
In-Reply-To: <3E69C75C.000003.46419@monica>
Message-ID: <b4cvkc+9569@eGroups.com>

Kathryn Cawte wrote:
> Did anyone else see that Adam Faith died this morning?

<snip>

Doubly sad, in that having been out the music business for quite a 
while, the British press have been making quite a big deal over the 
last week or so about his comeback. He's been appearing all over the 
place telling everyone how well he felt and how much he was looking 
forward to the big tour he'd just embarked upon.

By all accounts, a very nice bloke who helped a lot of people over 
the years, and a great showman to boot.





From heidit at netbox.com  Sat Mar  8 15:37:05 2003
From: heidit at netbox.com (heiditandy)
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 10:37:05 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Happy World Book Day
In-Reply-To: <013101c2e526$7dcb7940$87a0cdd1@RVotaw>
Message-ID: <010401c2e588$93365680$0301a8c0@Frodo>

Ali asked:
> >Are teenagers still allowed to like Harry?


Go to FictionAlley.org's message boards and ask them. There are about
20,000 registered users on FA now, and our numbers imply that at least
2/5 of them are between 13 and 17. They (meaning the teens among our
registered users) post, they discuss and many of them, including some of
our mods, have been fans for 4+ years. They read the books at 12 and 13,
and they still can't wait for the release of OoTP. 

Some of the people, though, who were 13 and 14 when GoF was released are
now focusing on college applications or their freshman year - and
already, the kids in the UK who were 10 when PS was first released are
now in their last years of school, or have already left. They aren't
kids anymore, and if WB and the publishers don't wake up to the fact
that the original fans of the books have grown up - and will all be full
fledged adults by the time Book 7 comes out - then *that* will cause a
problem, IMHO, for the sales of the books. 

heidi 




From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk  Sat Mar  8 17:33:11 2003
From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak)
Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 17:33:11 -0000
Subject: Happy World Book Day
In-Reply-To: <010401c2e588$93365680$0301a8c0@Frodo>
Message-ID: <b4d9gn+f2sk@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "heiditandy" <heidit at n...> 
wrote:
> Ali asked:
> > >Are teenagers still allowed to like Harry?

Heidi replied:
> Some of the people, though, who were 13 and 14 when GoF was 
> released are now focusing on college applications or their 
> freshman year - and already, the kids in the UK who were 10 when 
> PS was first released are now in their last years of school, or 
> have already left. They aren't kids anymore, and if WB and the 
> publishers don't wake up to the fact that the original fans of the 
> books have grown up - and will all be full fledged adults by the 
> time Book 7 comes out - then *that* will cause a problem, IMHO, 
> for the sales of the books. 
> heidi

Scholastic may not have noticed, but Bloomsbury almost certainly has.

No. 1 seller on www.amazon.co.uk/  ? Harry Potter and the Order of 
the Phoenix.

No. 2 seller on www.amazon.co.uk/  ? Harry Potter and the Order of 
the Phoenix - only this time it's the snazzy black and white 'adult 
cover' edition that Bloomsbury started bringing out after GoF. 

Same text, just a cover that doesn't announce loudly to your fellow 
teenagers/college students/commuters that you're reading 
a 'children's book'. 

If there's one thing a marketing person *really* understands, it's 
sales. The no. 2 sales position for the 'adult cover' at 
Amazon.co.uk shouts loud and clear that there is an adult audience 
for HP that *prefers* the books they're reading to be seen as adult 
books.

I expect that marketing is going to start emphasising something like 
the 'increasing depth' of the later books. Or possibly they will be 
having a double campaign, one more aimed at the children, one at the 
adults.

In that vein, it's interesting that part of the HP contribution to 
Comic Relief was *not* another schoolbook. No, it's a chance to win 
a light blue Ford Anglia car. Roadworthy, with MOT. 

So only those 18+ can enter the contest ;-)

Pip




From zeff8 at attbi.com  Sat Mar  8 17:26:18 2003
From: zeff8 at attbi.com (Prof_chase)
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 12:26:18 -0500
Subject: Chat room today
References: <010401c2e588$93365680$0301a8c0@Frodo>
Message-ID: <00bc01c2e597$d44c7c80$9c01f50c@mac>

Saturday At 3pm Centeral US time, Peeves will have his chat room open on
paltalk.
Hogwarts school. This is a Text, voice, and video chat room, and is
moderated. I.E. the anti-Harry crowd gets booted out.

Go to www.paltalk.com and download their little program. Register and then
when all is set up, logg on and find us in the meet new friends group.

Hope to see ya there!




For a voice and text chat, Join us at Hogwarts School on Paltalk, in the
Meet new friends group.
Join HP collectables, to discuss collecting various HP items.
Subscribe:  HPcollectables-subscribe at yahoogroups.com
Unsubscribe:  HPcollectables-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
List owner:  HPcollectables-owner at yahoogroups.com




From ression at hotmail.com  Sat Mar  8 21:52:32 2003
From: ression at hotmail.com (ER)
Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 21:52:32 -0000
Subject: Happy World Book Day
In-Reply-To: <010401c2e588$93365680$0301a8c0@Frodo>
Message-ID: <b4don0+dbng@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "heiditandy" <heidit at n...> 
wrote:
> Ali asked:
> > >Are teenagers still allowed to like Harry?
> 
> 
> Go to FictionAlley.org's message boards and ask them. There are 
about
> 20,000 registered users on FA now, and our numbers imply that at 
least
> 2/5 of them are between 13 and 17. 

I wonder if teenagers whose parents like HP like HP? Or would it 
automatically be considered "uncool" (or whatever kids say these 
days)?


ER




From drednort at alphalink.com.au  Sat Mar  8 22:50:44 2003
From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately)
Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 22:50:44 -0000
Subject: Yet another educational opinion
In-Reply-To: <3E6A7FD2.27980.1CF84F2@localhost>
Message-ID: <b4ds44+3p9d@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Shaun Hately" 
<drednort at a...> wrote:

> If five move, that's $10,000 of taxpayer's money.
> 
> You now have a state school with 90 students and a budget of 
$490,000 - or $5,444 
> each.

Just noticed this rather significant error in my post - I shouldn't 
be writing after 11pm (-8

The line should be:

"You now have a state school with 95 students and a budget of 
$490,000 - or $5,157 each."

Doesn't change my arguments but educational rants should ideally not 
contain arithmetic errors (especially not ones like 100-5=90)







From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Sun Mar  9 02:11:59 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 02:11:59 -0000
Subject: John Weasley????
Message-ID: <b4e7tf+4is5@eGroups.com>

>From an interview with JKR, I must be interpreting this thing wrong or
the transcriber wrote it down wrong, but JKR refers to John Weasley.
John???

Question:   
Do you take real people you know and put them in your books?

J.K. Rowling responds: 
The closest I've come to putting a real person in my books is with
Gilderoy Lockhart, who is an exaggeration of someone I once knew.
**John** Weasley is a little bit like my oldest friend, a man I was at
school with, whose name is Sean. But neither of them are accurate
portraits.

http://www.scholastic.com/harrypotter/author/transcript1.htm

I'm so confused.

bboy_mn




From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com  Sun Mar  9 03:16:02 2003
From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent)
Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 03:16:02 -0000
Subject: John Weasley????
In-Reply-To: <b4e7tf+4is5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b4ebli+1jma@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <bboy_mn at y...> wrote:
> From an interview with JKR, I must be interpreting this thing 
wrong or
> the transcriber wrote it down wrong, but JKR refers to John 
Weasley.
> John???
> 
> Question:   
> Do you take real people you know and put them in your books?
> 
> J.K. Rowling responds: 
> The closest I've come to putting a real person in my books is with
> Gilderoy Lockhart, who is an exaggeration of someone I once knew.
> **John** Weasley is a little bit like my oldest friend, a man I 
was at
> school with, whose name is Sean. But neither of them are accurate
> portraits.
> 
> http://www.scholastic.com/harrypotter/author/transcript1.htm
> 
> I'm so confused.
> 
> bboy_mn

She's often said that Ron was based on her old friend, Sean.  
Obviously the person writing this down thought she said "John" 
instead of "Ron."  It is also clear that if they could make this 
mistake, they haven't read the books and have no business 
interviewing her about them!  (ARE there still people who haven't 
read the books? <g>)

--Barb





From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Sun Mar  9 04:13:21 2003
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 04:13:21 -0000
Subject: President William McKinley and the Grim
Message-ID: <b4ef11+tsui@eGroups.com>

Very strange story I just came across in a volume titled First Dogs: 
American Presidents and Their Best Friends (by Roy Rowan and Brooke 
Janis) a history of White House canines).  On September 6, 1901 
President William McKinley, on his way to the Pan American Exposition 
in Buffalo, paid a side visit to Niagara Falls. A photo showed 
McKinley observing the Falls while a large black dog stood just off 
to his side. The identity of the dog has never been established. A 
few hours later McKinley was fatally shot by Leon Czolgosz.

I was not able to find the photo online, but it may be found in the 
above-mentioned book, on page 65. 

    - CMC





From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Sun Mar  9 05:51:00 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 05:51:00 -0000
Subject: John Weasley????
In-Reply-To: <b4ebli+1jma@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b4eko4+pc37@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "psychic_serpent"
<psychic_serpent at y...> wrote:
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <bboy_mn at y...> wrote:
> > From an interview with JKR, I must be interpreting this 
> > thing wrong or the transcriber wrote it down wrong, but JKR 
> > refers to John Weasley.
> >
> > John???
> > 
> > Question:   
> > Do you take real people you know and put them in your books?
> > 
> > J.K. Rowling responds: 
> > The closest I've come to putting a real person in my books is with
> > Gilderoy Lockhart, who is an exaggeration of someone I once knew.
> > **John** Weasley is a little bit like my oldest friend, a man I 
> > was at school with, whose name is Sean. But neither of them are 
> > accurate portraits.
> > 
> > http://www.scholastic.com/harrypotter/author/transcript1.htm
> > 
> > I'm so confused.
> > 
> > bboy_mn

> 
> She's often said that Ron was based on her old friend, Sean.  
> Obviously the person writing this down thought she said "John" 
> instead of "Ron."  It is also clear that if they could make this 
> mistake, they haven't read the books and have no business 
> interviewing her about them!  (ARE there still people who haven't 
> read the books? <g>)
> 
> --Barb

Barb,
Did you notice the source of this interview? It's the publisher
Scholastic. You would think that they would get it right. 

I think I remember reading this Ron/Sean reference before. Does anyone
have an alternate interview that could confirm this?

Had me worried there for a second.

bboy_mn





From flourishnblotts at yahoo.com  Sun Mar  9 06:20:41 2003
From: flourishnblotts at yahoo.com (Madeline Klink)
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 22:20:41 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Happy World Book Day
Message-ID: <20030309062041.23303.qmail@web14712.mail.yahoo.com>

> I wonder if teenagers whose parents like HP like HP?
> Or would it 
> automatically be considered "uncool" (or whatever
> kids say these 
> days)?

Nope, nope, nope. In fact, my grandmother introduced
me to Harry, personally. My parents really like the
books (though they're not as enthusiastic as I am) and
most of the teens I know seem to think that if you're
"uncool" enough to admit that you read, you can't get
much worse, so it doesn't matter if your parents read
the same things ;)

To be serious, though, I think that for many people
reading tastes are outside the realm of "cool" or
"uncool." Most of my friends really like it when
they're reading the same books as their parents. 

I'm sixteen, by the way, for those of you who don't
know me. ;)

=====
"When I am dead, I hope it may be said: His sins were scarlet, but his books were read." - Hilaire Belloc
Madeline "Flourish" Klink || flourishnblotts at yahoo.com || blotts.org

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/



From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk  Sun Mar  9 07:32:04 2003
From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte)
Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 07:32:04 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: John Weasley????
References: <b4eko4+pc37@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3E6AEDF4.000001.41977@monica>


 
Barb,
Did you notice the source of this interview? It's the publisher
Scholastic. You would think that they would get it right. 
 
I think I remember reading this Ron/Sean reference before. Does anyone
have an alternate interview that could confirm this?
 
Had me worried there for a second.
 
bboy_mn
 
 I don't know whether there's a transcript around anywhere (I'm sure there
probably is) but she said it in the BBC documentary thingy that was shown
last year. She also said that the Flying Ford Anglia was based on Sean's car
iirc.

K



From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk  Sun Mar  9 09:07:26 2003
From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak)
Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 09:07:26 -0000
Subject: John Weasley????
In-Reply-To: <3E6AEDF4.000001.41977@monica>
Message-ID: <b4f08e+ljgm@eGroups.com>


>  
> Bboy:
> Did you notice the source of this interview? It's the publisher
> Scholastic. You would think that they would get it right. 
>  
> I think I remember reading this Ron/Sean reference before. Does 
> anyone have an alternate interview that could confirm this?
>  
> Had me worried there for a second.
>  
> bboy_mn
>  
K replied:
>  I don't know whether there's a transcript around anywhere (I'm 
> sure there probably is) but she said it in the BBC documentary 
> thingy that was shownlast year. She also said that the Flying Ford 
> Anglia was based on Sean's car iirc.
> 
> K

Not only did she *say* it, there was quite an extended sequence with 
her and said friend Sean in that documentary. Sean was asked what he 
thought Ron was like. Interesting comment: he said he saw Ron as 
someone from the second eleven [reserve team] who really, really 
wants to be first eleven [first team] but is never quite going to 
make it.

Of course, this may have nothing to do with JKR's vision of Ron, but 
it's interesting that the guy he was partly based on sees Ron that 
way.

Anyone have a transcript of that documentary?

Pip




From lupinesque at yahoo.com  Sun Mar  9 10:56:10 2003
From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 10:56:10 -0000
Subject: John Weasley????
In-Reply-To: <b4f08e+ljgm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b4f6ka+5evd@eGroups.com>

Pip asked:
 
> Anyone have a transcript of that documentary?

MuggleNet has a summary/transcript (not verbatim):  
http://www.mugglenet.com/jkrshow.shtml

HTH,
Amy




From HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com  Sun Mar  9 16:02:17 2003
From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com (HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 9 Mar 2003 16:02:17 -0000
Subject: Reminder - Weekly Chat 
Message-ID: <1047225737.28.267.m10@yahoogroups.com>


We would like to remind you of this upcoming event.

Weekly Chat 

Date: Sunday, March 9, 2003 
Time: 11:00AM - 7:00PM CST (GMT-06:00) 

Hi everyone! Don't forget, chat happens today, 11 am Pacific, 2
pm Eastern, 7 pm UK time. Go into any Yahoo chat room and type
/join HP:1 
For further info, see the Humongous BigFile, section 3.3.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/hbfile.html#33

Hope to see you there! 

 





From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com  Sun Mar  9 16:54:59 2003
From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent)
Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 16:54:59 -0000
Subject: John Weasley????
In-Reply-To: <b4eko4+pc37@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b4frl4+s3nn@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <bboy_mn at y...> wrote:
> Barb,
> Did you notice the source of this interview? It's the publisher
> Scholastic. You would think that they would get it right. 
 
Actually, had I noticed (you're right, I didn't) it was Scholastic, 
I would have realized the reason for the mistake immediately.  The 
fact that this is on the Scholastic site means nothing.  There are 
ridiculously sloppy.  There are mistakes all over the Scholastic 
site.  I doubt that anyone who knows their Potter trivia is checking 
up on the webmaster.  This mistake, for instance, occurs on the page 
with information about The Sorcerer's Stone:

"Harry's room is a closet at the foot of the stairs, and he hasn't 
had a birthday party in eleven years." 

Actually, there's more than one mistake here.  Harry's "room" is a 
CUPBOARD (not closet) UNDER the stairs. (If it were at the foot of 
the stairs, how would anyone in the family be able to descend these 
stairs?  This not only contradicts the book, it defies logic and 
basic architectural design principles.)  And while it is true that 
Harry hasn't had a birthday part ever (which would be clearer than 
saying "in eleven years," which strongly implies that he had one 
before that, while he wasn't even born yet) he also hasn't been with 
the Dursleys for eleven years (the implication is that he's been 
party-less since living with them).  He's been with them for less 
than ten years.

The blurb is also badly written.  The last paragraph reads:

"For it's there that he finds not only friends, aerial sports, and 
magic in everything from classes to meals, but a great destiny 
that's been waiting for him... if Harry can survive the encounter."

Encounter? What encounter?  Until the last phrase, no one mentioned 
an encounter of any kind.  

Then this appears in the blurb on the Scholastic site for Chamber of 
Secrets:

"But just as he's packing his bags, Harry receives a warning from a 
strange, impish creature named Dobby who says that if Harry Potter 
returns to Hogwarts, disaster will strike."

Um, this did NOT occur just as he was packing his bags.  Dobby came 
during the dinner party for the Masons.  And Dobby didn't exactly 
say "disaster will strike."  This is a very poor paraphrase of his 
words.

Then, in the last paragraph of the blurb, we get still more bad 
writing:

"But each of these seem minor annoyances when the real trouble 
begins, and someone ? or something ? starts turning Hogwarts 
students to stone. Could it be Draco Malfoy, a more poisonous rival 
than ever? Could it possibly be Hagrid, whose mysterious past is 
finally told? Or could it be the one everyone at Hogwarts most 
suspects...Harry Potter himself!"

That should be "seem to be minor annoyances."  And while the root of 
the word "petrify" is related to the Latin word for "stone," the 
students weren't technially turned to stone.  (Being petrified means 
you are LIKE stone, a distinction which is lost here.)  And finally, 
the end of the last sentence does not end with a question mark, 
despite being a question.

In the blurb for PoA, we are subjected to still more bad writing:

"Now he has escaped, leaving only two clues as to where he might be 
headed: Harry Potter's defeat of You-Know-Who was Black's downfall 
as well." 

Who on earth wrote this?  The implication of the colon 
after "headed" is that we are about to be told what the two clues 
are.  This does not occur in the continuation of the sentence.   
Thankfully, because of the brevity of the PoA blurb, there wasn't 
much else they were able to mangle.

In the blurb for GoF, the World Cup is called "the International 
Quidditch Cup."  It also says, "He wants to find out about the 
mysterious event that's supposed to take place at Hogwarts this 
year, an event involving two other rival schools of magic, and a 
competition that hasn't happened for a hundred years."  This makes 
it sound like Harry KNOWS the event involves the other schools 
and "a competition that hasn't happened for a hundred years."  If he 
knew all this, there wouldn't have been much more for him to find 
out.  Once again, brevity here prevents further mistakes.

I've also found numerous mistakes in their pronunciation guide and 
their glossary.  In the glossary, for instance, "Avada" is listed by 
itself, with "Kedavra" being the beginning of the definition.  The 
Bloody Baron is said to be the "resident ghost of Slytherin Tower."  
Where is this Slytherin Tower, and why have we never heard of it 
before?  While the glossary is mostly in alphabetical order, for 
some reason "Crouch, Bartemius, Senior" and "Crouch, Bartemius, 
Junior" are separated by "Crockford, Doris," and "Crookshanks,"  
When Junior should be first (alphabetically), then Senior, etc.  The 
definitions of the spells are also simplistic, Dumbledore is 
described as wearing "a long, purple cloak that sweeps to the 
ground," as though he never changes his clothes, and the "reviving 
spell" is said to be "Enervate," whose definition also says, "In non-
magic usage 'enervate' means to make someone weaker."   While this 
is true, the spell in the book is "Ennervate," NOT "Enervate."  They 
are two different words.  (JKR made it up.)  "Ferula" is said to be 
a "Spell to conjure a sling for a broken limb," when in fact Lupin 
uses this to conjure a SPLINT for Ron's broken leg. (How would 
a "sling" help him?  It wasn't his arm he broke.)  The mistakes on 
the Scholastic site go on and on.  The "John Weasley" mistake 
doesn't surprise me in the least, given the extent of the 
sloppiness.  I recommend taking anything seen there with a boulder-
size grain of salt.

--Barb

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent
http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb





From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Sun Mar  9 17:06:32 2003
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David)
Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 17:06:32 -0000
Subject: Based? (was John Weasley)
In-Reply-To: <b4ebli+1jma@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b4fsao+sco7@eGroups.com>

Steve quoted JKR:
 
> > The closest I've come to putting a real person in my books is 
with
> > Gilderoy Lockhart, who is an exaggeration of someone I once knew.
> > **John** Weasley is a little bit like my oldest friend, a man I 
> was at
> > school with, whose name is Sean. But neither of them are accurate
> > portraits.
> > 
> > http://www.scholastic.com/harrypotter/author/transcript1.htm
> > 
> 
Barb replied:

> She's often said that Ron was based on her old friend, Sean.  

I agree that 'John' above almost certainly refers to Ron.

For me, though, it triggered a question about something else.

I haven't gone through her interviews in detail, but the my memory 
is that JKR is quite careful to use phrases like "Character X is a 
little bit like real person Y".

I am not an author of fiction, so I take these statements at face 
value: there is a degree of resemblance between the character and 
the real person.  To my mind, that is something different from 
saying that character X is 'based' on person Y.

The use of this language doesn't bother me in itself, but I wonder 
about the deductions that are then made.  For example: "Hermione is 
based on JKR's teenage self, and Ron is based on Sean.  These two 
are old friends but have never had a romantic relationship [as far 
as the post author knows] so R/H can't happen."

My question - I would particularly like authors of fiction to share 
their own experience here - is: Is this a valid form of reasoning?  
In the particular case where a character is assumed based on the 
author (I have seen Hermione described as 'JKR's avatar'), is it 
valid to deduce that future plot developments will follow the 
supposed wishes of the author, or avoid her supposed mistakes ("X is 
based on Arantes so Hermione will never get together with *him*!")?

I always feel these sorts of arguments come perilously close to 
accusing JKR of Mary-Sue-ism myself, but I would like to know.  Even 
where characters not resembling the author are the subject of the 
argument, it feels as if the author's imagination is being 
discounted.

Barb - I realise this is probably just chance wording on your part 
in response to a different topic, it isn't directed at you, or 
anything you have said in the past.

David




From lupinesque at yahoo.com  Sun Mar  9 20:20:10 2003
From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 20:20:10 -0000
Subject: Based? (was John Weasley)
In-Reply-To: <b4fsao+sco7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b4g7lq+moj4@eGroups.com>

David wrote:

> I haven't gone through her interviews in detail, but the my memory 
> is that JKR is quite careful to use phrases like "Character X is a 
> little bit like real person Y".
> 
> I am not an author of fiction, so I take these statements at face 
> value: there is a degree of resemblance between the character and 
> the real person.  To my mind, that is something different from 
> saying that character X is 'based' on person Y.
> 
> The use of this language doesn't bother me in itself, but I wonder 
> about the deductions that are then made.  For example: "Hermione is 
> based on JKR's teenage self, and Ron is based on Sean.  These two 
> are old friends but have never had a romantic relationship [as far 
> as the post author knows] so R/H can't happen."
> 
> My question - I would particularly like authors of fiction to share 
> their own experience here - is: Is this a valid form of reasoning?  

I'll respond as a partner of an author of fiction:  no.  It drives my 
dh nuts when people assume that his first-person character must be 
him, and therefore the wife is me, the mom is his mom, etc.  I'm not 
crazy about it either, as it implies that, e.g., my husband is having 
sex with a teenager behind my back, to cite one story.

He draws on his own experiences and POV to create the characters, but 
even the ones who share a lot of his experiences and POV aren't him.  
What they do is not necessarily something he's done, or wants to do, 
or is afraid he will one day do.  It's fiction, not a diary. 

Even if JKR said flat out that Ron was "based on" Sean (and IIRC, 
what she actually said was that she didn't realize until later that 
she'd given Ron quite a lot of Sean's characteristics), I wouldn't 
take that to imply anything about Ron's fate, character, future 
romances, etc.  "Based on" is stronger language than "is a little bit 
like," I agree, but it still is just an overlap.  It could mean 
something as simple as his being her best friend throughout 
adolescence, or his being very tall with red hair, or his being 
funny.  Why should the fact that they have some things in common mean 
that Ron has to be in lockstep with Sean forever?  (I'm pretty sure 
that Sean never crashed his turquoise Anglia into a Whomping Willow 
and got his wand broken.)

One thing every writer seems to confirm is that characters take on a 
life of their own.  If that is true, Ron has probably told JKR a few 
things about himself that have utterly surprised her, and would 
surprise Sean as well.

Amy




From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Sun Mar  9 20:26:31 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 20:26:31 -0000
Subject: Need Help with Wands Photo Link
Message-ID: <b4g81n+a1fr@eGroups.com>

Somewhere on one of the HPFGU boards someone in the past posted a link
to a HP photo archive that had pictures of the wands of the various
Cast member from the HP movie. 

It seems it was a general movie information site that had a large HP
gallery. I think the photos of the wands themselves may have come for
one of the HP calenders or HP postcard books or HP Sticker books. I
know one of the wall calenders had a nice picture of Harry's wand, but
this site had the wands of several cast member including Snape's which
was probably the most interesting looking one.

Can anybody help me find a link to these wand photos?

I'm searching the for the post both here and in the HPFGU Movie groups
and haven't been able to find it so far.

Any help???

bboy_mn




From lupinesque at yahoo.com  Sun Mar  9 20:30:00 2003
From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 20:30:00 -0000
Subject: Cupboards and closets (was John Weasley????)
In-Reply-To: <b4frl4+s3nn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b4g888+nqrr@eGroups.com>

Barb wrote:

> Actually, there's more than one mistake here.  Harry's "room" is a 
> CUPBOARD (not closet) UNDER the stairs. 

Now, this raises an interesting question.

To my American mind, "cupboard" means a closet with shelves--often 
not full-length, but just over or under the kitchen counter, say.  As 
such, it is not a space a person can sleep in.  

I can completely understand the British usage of "cupboard" here, but 
what I picture when I read is just what appears in the movie, and I 
would call that a closet.  So is this just Scholastic Americanizing 
for their young readers who might be confused about how one could 
sleep in a cupboard (as opposed to Scholastic being stupid/inaccurate 
as with the "foot of the stairs" comment etc.)?  Or am I misreading?

I'm 99% sure that the Scholastic edition does not do this to the 
books, btw.  It does say "cupboard," not "closet."  Right?

Amy




From susannahlm at yahoo.com  Sun Mar  9 20:38:17 2003
From: susannahlm at yahoo.com (derannimer)
Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 20:38:17 -0000
Subject: Based?
Message-ID: <b4g8np+ucv5@eGroups.com>

David wrote: 

>My question - I would particularly like authors of fiction to share 
>their own experience here - is: Is this a valid form of reasoning? 
>In the particular case where a character is assumed based on the 
>author (I have seen Hermione described as 'JKR's avatar'), is it 
>valid to deduce that future plot developments will follow the 
>supposed wishes of the author, or avoid her supposed mistakes ("X is 
>based on Arantes so Hermione will never get together with *him*!")?

>I always feel these sorts of arguments come perilously close to 
>accusing JKR of Mary-Sue-ism myself, but I would like to know.

Well, I'm not an author, but I'll have a whack at it. 

I agree mostly with what you're saying--JKR is not writing Hermione 
as wish fulfillment, the character has an identity and a validity of 
her own, and JKR isn't writing the series to parallel her own life. 

However. 

Since Hermione is so very close to JKR--in one interview, JKR says 
that, although many characters end up far from their "bases," that 
hasn't happened with Hermione--I think that, to *some* extent, we may 
be able to predict some things about Hermione's character, tastes, 
and *identity* based on what we know of JKR. I don't think for one 
minute that we can predict what's going to *happen* to Hermione based 
on what's happened to JKR; but I think we may be able to predict--
*somewhat*--how Hermione will react *to* what happens to her, based 
on how JKR would react, in similar circumstances. 

To take your specific example, no, I don't think we can 
say: "Hermione is JKR, Ron is Sean, Hermione's life parallels JKR's, 
so we can make a prediction of what's going to happen."

But, and, as a confirmed H/Her, I'm going to try to step carefully 
here, it *may*--may--be possible to say "Hermione is JKR, Ron is 
Sean, Hermione's tastes parallel JKR's, so we can make a prediction 
of what Hermione would *like* to have happen." 

In other words, I think we cannot use it to predict plot points; but 
I think we might be able to use it as an aid to a character study. 

The example used is kind of a tricky one, though, because SHIPping 
plot points largely *grow out of* the characters of characters; the 
two questions become basically the same question. I would be 
interested in taking a different plot example, and one more 
independent of Hermione's basic personality, to answer the question 
for. 

But I can't think of one. Also my computer is doing some very weird 
things, and I suspect that it might send me offline again in a 
minute. Consider yourselves lucky--or not, of course--if you even get 
this. 

Oh, well. 

I agree though--it is an interesting question to think about. 



Derannimer (who wonders why all the down arrows on Internet Explorer 
have been replaced by 6's. And why she can't open Word.)




From ression at hotmail.com  Sun Mar  9 21:03:55 2003
From: ression at hotmail.com (ER)
Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 21:03:55 -0000
Subject: Happy World Book Day
In-Reply-To: <20030309062041.23303.qmail@web14712.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <b4ga7r+ru2j@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Madeline Klink 
<flourishnblotts at y...> wrote:

> Nope, nope, nope. In fact, my grandmother introduced
> me to Harry, personally. My parents really like the
> books (though they're not as enthusiastic as I am) and
> most of the teens I know seem to think that if you're
> "uncool" enough to admit that you read, you can't get
> much worse, so it doesn't matter if your parents read
> the same things ;)
> 

OK, guess this (sample of one) shows how little I know about 
teenagers! The thought of teenagers having the same reading tastes as 
their parents does surprise me. From what I remember of being a 
teenager (a long time ago), if my parents were for it, I was agin it!

If you don't mind me asking ... do you and your parents have the 
same "take" on the books? Do you laugh at the same things (in the 
books)? Do you agree, broadly, on how the plot is likely to unfold?

Would you admit to your peers that you read HP?

Hope I'm not being too nosy - if so, just ignore me.

ER




From pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no  Sun Mar  9 21:23:57 2003
From: pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no (pengolodh_sc)
Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 21:23:57 -0000
Subject: Need Help with Wands Photo Link
In-Reply-To: <b4g81n+a1fr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b4gbdd+u0tr@eGroups.com>

Let me begin by apologising if this message comes out with formatting 
where each CR is tripled - it seems Yahoo!Groups is warping formatting 
for me these days.


--- In HPFGU-OTChatter, "Steve" wrote:


> Somewhere on one of the HPFGU boards someone in the past posted a


> link to a HP photo archive that had pictures of the wands of the


> various Cast member from the HP movie. 


> 


> It seems it was a general movie information site that had a


> large HP gallery. 


[snip]


Might you be thinking of hpgalleries.com?  That site used to be *the* 
online resource with images and interviews, and eventually affiliated 
with the-leaky-cauldron.org.  However, hpgalleires seems to be no more 
- it went offline at least year and a half ago, IIRC, and the domain 
seems to be up for sale.  I have seen a holding-page for 
hpgalleries.co.uk, however, so it may be that a comeback is planned.




Best regards


Christian Stub?





From plumeski at yahoo.com  Sun Mar  9 23:23:15 2003
From: plumeski at yahoo.com (gulplum)
Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 23:23:15 -0000
Subject: Based? (was John Weasley)
In-Reply-To: <b4fsao+sco7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b4gid3+csv7@eGroups.com>

David wrote:

<snip> 

> I am not an author of fiction, so I take these statements at face 
> value: there is a degree of resemblance between the character and 
> the real person.  To my mind, that is something different from 
> saying that character X is 'based' on person Y.
> 
> The use of this language doesn't bother me in itself, but I wonder 
> about the deductions that are then made.  For example: "Hermione is 
> based on JKR's teenage self, and Ron is based on Sean.  These two 
> are old friends but have never had a romantic relationship [as far 
> as the post author knows] so R/H can't happen."
> 
> My question - I would particularly like authors of fiction to share 
> their own experience here - is: Is this a valid form of reasoning?  
> In the particular case where a character is assumed based on the 
> author (I have seen Hermione described as 'JKR's avatar'), is it 
> valid to deduce that future plot developments will follow the 
> supposed wishes of the author, or avoid her supposed mistakes ("X 
is 
> based on Arantes so Hermione will never get together with *him*!")?
> 
> I always feel these sorts of arguments come perilously close to 
> accusing JKR of Mary-Sue-ism myself, but I would like to know.  
Even 
> where characters not resembling the author are the subject of the 
> argument, it feels as if the author's imagination is being 
> discounted.

There are three options for characters based on the author's 
experience of specific individuals: 

1) they look like, sound like, or behave like the real person, but 
that's as far as the resemblance goes (i.e. inspiration);

2) they make their way into the fiction wholesale, but with a "twist" 
at the end so that e.g. the author can imagine having had a 
relationship with someone they liked, or perhaps give someone they 
didn't like a grisly death (i.e. wish fulfillment, for good or bad);

3) they make their way wholesale into the fiction (i.e. direct 
transference).

I've written various bits of fiction in the past (none published) and 
I've done all three at one time or another. From what I've seen or 
read of "famous" authors' "sources", it seems like I'm not the only 
one, and indeed it's extremely common (not surprisingly). The kind of 
terminology authors use for each kind of "source" is inconsistent and 
interchangable, so there's no way of knowing exactly how far each 
character represents a real person.

Back to JKR and Sean (or Hermione and Ron). I would consider it 
extremely dangerous to draw any kind of conclusions regrding the 
characters' fates from their real counterparts' lives, and to be 
perfectly honest, I think JKR's too good at what she does to 
transplant the second and third most important characters in the 
books from real life quite so completely.

Incidentally, from the documentary in which Sean appears, I get the 
feeling that they didn't tell quite the whole truth. One thing I 
found particularly "suspicious" was JKR's statement that she and Sean 
would go off for hours in his turquoise Ford Anglia and sit under the 
Severn Bridge. Considering they were 17 at the time, I seriously 
doubt that all they ever did there was sit and enjoy the view... :-)



-- 
GulPlum AKA Richard, who popped in mainly to inform folks that Philip 
Pullman is the subject of The South Bank Show just starting on ITV on 
UK TV (off to watch).






From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Mar  9 23:56:39 2003
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 23:56:39 -0000
Subject: Based? (was John Weasley)
In-Reply-To: <b4gid3+csv7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b4gkbn+ifii@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "gulplum" <plumeski at y...> 
wrote:
> 
> Incidentally, from the documentary in which Sean appears, I get the 
> feeling that they didn't tell quite the whole truth. One thing I 
> found particularly "suspicious" was JKR's statement that she and
> Sean would go off for hours in his turquoise Ford Anglia and sit 
> under the Severn Bridge. Considering they were 17 at the time, I 
> seriously doubt that all they ever did there was sit and enjoy the 
> view... :-)

I thought she said that they would sit for hours under the Severn 
Bridge AND TALK ABOUT HOW ROTTEN LIFE IS. Surely that is a topic that 
can fill many hours (and have an anaphrodisiac effect).

plumEski?




From lupinesque at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 10 00:01:34 2003
From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 00:01:34 -0000
Subject: Based?
In-Reply-To: <b4g8np+ucv5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b4gkku+sc5i@eGroups.com>

Derannimer wrote (it got through!):

> as a confirmed H/Her, I'm going to try to step carefully 
> here

I think this is one question that ought to be free of shipping bias, 
or at least free of a bias towards R/H or H/H.  (Where it leaves H/D 
is anyone's guess.)  After all, Jo and Sean didn't turn into a 
romantic couple (unless, as GulPlum suggests, they're being cagey on 
that point), so so much for R/H based on real life.  Neither is it 
very savory to imagine Jo putting her alter ego together with her 
imaginary son, which is the closest parallel she's drawn between 
Harry and a real-life person, so so much for H/H based on real life.  
It's a wash.

> Since Hermione is so very close to JKR--in one interview, JKR says 
> that, although many characters end up far from their "bases," that 
> hasn't happened with Hermione--I think that, to *some* extent, we 
may 
> be able to predict some things about Hermione's character, tastes, 
> and *identity* based on what we know of JKR. 

But we can't predict how she'd get on with Ron, can we?  Since he may 
be one of the characters who's ended up far from his basis.  

Amy




From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 10 00:34:00 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 00:34:00 -0000
Subject: Need Help with Wands Photo Link
In-Reply-To: <b4gbdd+u0tr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b4gmho+dm6u@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "pengolodh_sc"
<pengolodh_sc at y...> wrote:
> Let me begin by apologising if this message comes out with 
> formatting where each CR is tripled - it seems Yahoo!Groups is 
> warping formatting for me these days.
> 

bboy_mn:
Just out of curiousity, what program do you use to compose your
emails? If you are using Microsoft Outlook, it may actually using
MS-Word, and the word processor could be throwing in additional
formatting. 

Even if you are not using Outlook, I would still be interested in what
 you do use.

Steve

> 
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter, "Steve" wrote:
> 
> 
> > Somewhere on one of the HPFGU boards someone in the past posted a

> > link to a HP photo archive that had pictures of the wands of the
> > various Cast member from the HP movie. 
> > 
> > It seems it was a general movie information site that had a
> > large HP gallery. 
> 
> 
> [snip]
> 
> 
> Might you be thinking of hpgalleries.com? ... I have seen a 
> holding-page for  hpgalleries.co.uk, however, so it may be that a 
> comeback is planned.
> 
> Best regards
> 
> Christian Stub?


bboy_mm:

While I'm sure the hpgalleries.com had the pictures, I don't think
that is where I saw it. My memory isn't that great but I seem to
recall that it was more of a general movie site than a HP movie site.
At first I thought it was ComingSoon.com, but I didn't see anything there.

Still open to suggestions. I know for a fact that someone in one of
the HPFGU groups (but I'm not sure which one) posted a link to it.
I'll keep searching the archive, but would still appreciate any help
anyone can give me.

I know it's out there somewhere.

bboy_mn






From plumeski at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 10 01:08:43 2003
From: plumeski at yahoo.com (gulplum)
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 01:08:43 -0000
Subject: Philip Pullman
Message-ID: <b4goir+3hlv@eGroups.com>

As I said in the .sig in my last message, tonight's South Bank Show 
(apologies to non-UK residents) was all about Philip Pullman, and 
specifically the His Dark Materials trilogy. The main element was a 
lengthy interview with Pullman, filmed "now" (i.e. fairly recently).

As per usual with the SBS, there was a commercial reason for 
scheduling the programme - the National Theatre are doing pre-advance 
publicity for their stage version of the trilogy, which is rumoured 
to be opening the new season (i.e. this autumn). No details have yet 
been announced.

A few observations.

I was susprised that a ~40 mins interview about these books didn't 
contain a single mention of the words "Rowling" or "Potter". :-)

Especially considering the tone and range of subjects covered, which 
included some erudite (and apposite) comments on writing for a mixed 
audience (i.e. kids and adults), the importance of third person 
limited narration (which I must admit I'd never really thought about 
before), what to do with the parents and other adults when children 
are the heroes of the story, etc., etc.

Except for one or two specifics about the plots of the books, the 
interview could well have been with JKR. I could imagine her 
answering the vast majority of the questions using exactly the same 
words.

Permeating the entire interview was Pullman's belief that the loss of 
innocence is a required route to the acquisition of wisdom. If we 
remain innocent, we close ourselves to the *possibility* of becoming 
wise. Although "innocence" was mainly used in the context of a 
child's development, he also underlined that he also meant it in a 
more adult sense...

Something I found particularly interesting was the very end of the 
interview (or at least the edited version as transmitted), in which 
Pullman mentioned an issue I think is relevant to discussions of the 
HP canon, and which I don't think I've ever seen on the main HPFGU 
list or elsewhere. 

I honestly regret that I didn't record the show, because this could 
do with being transcribed verbatim, but I'll do my best...

When asked about whether he sees His Dark Materials as a battle 
between good and evil, Pullman replied that battles between good and 
evil are ultimately uninspiring, as a self-conscious "evil" is 
inherently boring. 

What's *far* more interesting, he said, is a battle between two 
visions of what is "good" (also in the sense of "what is good for 
us"). 

He then went on to categorise the values of each vision of "good" and 
On the one hand, courage, selflessness, openness, loyalty and 
tolerance; on the other, bigotry, selfishness and slavery. And very 
importantly, the freedom to make mistakes on the one hand, and 
intransigence on the other.

I smiled, because the list is one that JKR has used several times 
before, but I found it interesting that what we see as the "evil" 
attributes really are positive, from the perspective of the holder of 
those views. I don't know, perhaps I just don't have the imagination 
to go that far outside of myself, but that was a minor (if ultimately 
obvious) revelation.

That's probably all I have to say on the issue. Perhaps other people 
sawe the programme as well?

--
GulPlum AKA Richard, who is now going to have to put off dealing with 
the slew of replies in the Marauders thread on the main list until 
tomorrow... :-(

(BTW Catlady: "plumski" was already gone when I signed up to Yahoo, 
hence the extra E in the middle) :-)





From pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no  Mon Mar 10 01:57:23 2003
From: pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no (pengolodh_sc)
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 01:57:23 -0000
Subject: Need Help with Wands Photo Link
In-Reply-To: <b4gmho+dm6u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b4gre3+cfj1@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter, "Steve" wrote:
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter, "pengolodh_sc" wrote:
> > Let me begin by apologising if this message comes out with 
> > formatting where each CR is tripled - it seems Yahoo!Groups is 
> > warping formatting for me these days.
> 
> bboy_mn:
> Just out of curiousity, what program do you use to compose your
> emails? If you are using Microsoft Outlook, it may actually using
> MS-Word, and the word processor could be throwing in additional
> formatting. 
> 
> Even if you are not using Outlook, I would still be interested in
> what you do use.
> 
> Steve

I use my browser - I read OTChatter on webview, so I don't use a mail-
programme for this group.  And when I do use a mailprogramme (Outlook 
Express), I always take great care that the programme is set to use 
plain text only.

I am thinking that the recent formatting-problems may have something 
to do with me using Opera 7.05 instead of Internet Explorer 6 these 
last few weeks, and the last two messages, where I had formatting-
problems, were posted while using Opera - we shall know with this 
message, as I am using IE6 now.  But I have posted to other groups 
while using Opera, without experiencing these problems, and it is a 
bit annoying that there are three or four lines of space between each 
paragraph, and two lines of space between each line of text I quote 
from other messages.

Best regards
Christian Stub?




From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 10 03:37:48 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 03:37:48 -0000
Subject: Need Help with Wands Photo Link
In-Reply-To: <b4gre3+cfj1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b4h1ac+9ce9@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "pengolodh_sc"
<pengolodh_sc at y...> wrote:

> > bboy_mn:
> > Just out of curiousity, what program do you use to compose your
> > emails? 
> > 
> > Steve
> 
> I use my browser - I read OTChatter on webview, so I don't use a
>  mail- programme for this group.  And when I do use a mailprogramme 
> 
> I am thinking that the recent formatting-problems may have something 
> to do with me using Opera 7.05 instead of Internet Explorer 6 ...
> 
> Best regards
> Christian Stub?

bboy_mn:

Well, now I am REALLY way off topic. Have you tried using Mozilla?
I've had real good luck with it and wouldn't consider MS Internet
Explorer or Netscape. Mozilla has all the primary features of Netscape
but is about 1/3 the size.

http://www.mozilla.org/

The current releases version is 1.2.1. There are newer versions but
they are still test versions. (installation file about 10Mb)

http://www.mozilla.org/releases/#1.2.1

This version of Mozilla doesn't come with a spell checker but they
have one on their website.
 
http://spellchecker.mozdev.org/installation.html

Just thought I would pass that along.

bboy_mn





From ladyfarro at attbi.com  Mon Mar 10 07:29:05 2003
From: ladyfarro at attbi.com (kae)
Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 23:29:05 -0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Happy World Book Day
References: <b4bqlj+8pv8@eGroups.com> <016701c2e530$35483230$87a0cdd1@RVotaw>
Message-ID: <018801c2e6d7$5f4c7ac0$3caae10c@attbi.com>

I'm very new on this list, but I too am a confirmed Hp fan! I can't find a
stronger word than fan! But, I have all four books in  Braille, plus Jim
Dale's audio books, the first Hp DVD, and I'm eagerly awaiting Coa on Dvd,
and the Order of the Phoenix in audio book format!  I even have posters and
action figures of Hp!  Most of my friends tell me to grow up! I'm 53 today,
and I'll never grow up .... completely. And I'm reading Hp to my Seeing Eye
dog
Lady Farro
too! He likes Fluffy and Hagrid the best.




From lupinesque at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 10 08:58:56 2003
From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 08:58:56 -0000
Subject: Philip Pullman
In-Reply-To: <b4goir+3hlv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b4hk4g+v6h7@eGroups.com>

It sounds fascinating.  Hear, hear on his take on "good and evil," 
and hats off to the interviewer for not mentioning HP once.  Does 
anyone know whether it ran/will be run on PBS?

Amy Z
HDM fan exiled in the USA




From lupinesque at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 10 09:01:45 2003
From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 09:01:45 -0000
Subject: Happy World Book Day
In-Reply-To: <018801c2e6d7$5f4c7ac0$3caae10c@attbi.com>
Message-ID: <b4hk9p+54kp@eGroups.com>

Happy birthday, Lady Farro!

>Most of my friends tell me to grow up! 

Don't listen to them.

Amy Z





From molly at elizabethjewelry.com  Mon Mar 10 10:27:08 2003
From: molly at elizabethjewelry.com (Molly Rahe)
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 10:27:08 -0000
Subject: "Harry Potter" Means WHAT????
In-Reply-To: <b4goir+3hlv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b4hp9s+6a3c@eGroups.com>

Delurking here to tell y'all what I saw last night on Bill Mahar.
There was a skit entitled "The Marijuana Logs". In it, they listed
names used for the drug. One was Harry Potter! Interesting.... So are
you shocked? Amused? Suprised? Angry? Happy? New This Already?

I for one am curious as to why. Maybe it is a safe word to use.

What do you think?

Twiggymolly






From plumeski at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 10 10:41:47 2003
From: plumeski at yahoo.com (gulplum)
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 10:41:47 -0000
Subject: Philip Pullman
In-Reply-To: <b4hk4g+v6h7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b4hq5b+8er6@eGroups.com>

Amy Z wrote:
> It sounds fascinating.  Hear, hear on his take on "good and evil," 
> and hats off to the interviewer for not mentioning HP once.  Does 
> anyone know whether it ran/will be run on PBS?

If it is ever shown in the U.S., I highly doubt that it'll be on 
PBS.  As far as I know, most UK TV shows on PBS are from the BBC, 
which isn't quite the be-all and end-all of British TV (this isn;t 
one of their shows). :-)

However, from other interests of mine, I know that various South Bank 
Show programmes have been shown on A&E (the Arts & Entertainment 
Network?) on cable, and I wouldn't be surprised if this one turns up 
there as well. 

As for the interviewer, well, I'd expect nothing less from (Lord) 
Melvyn Bragg. He's not just a celebrity interviewer, he's a major 
figure in both British arts appreciation and TV production. Apart 
from being the "face" of the SBS, he is also its editor and usually 
producer, and an executive of the broadcasting station. He's a very 
clever guy, and I would seriously recommend his series called "The 
History of English" (language) which he did last year. 
(potted biog here, which was clearly done before that series: 
http://www.visitcumbria.com/mbragg.htm)

Incidentally, the name of the show is a very clever play on culture: 
the South Bank (capitalised) is a major centre of British arts, along 
the south bank (duh!) of the Thames in central London which includes 
the South Bank Centre (3 concert halls, a couple of proper art 
exhibition spaces, the National Theatre, the National Film Institute) 
and various other "arty" institutions. And also the home of the TV 
station which produces this show. The SBS has also been a major 
element of British cultural life for the last 20 years + and one of 
less than a handful of shows I watch on that station. Like the 
station, it's been seriously dumbed down over the last decade or so, 
but still lives up to the ideals of a populist approach to serious 
culture. It tackles a single subject each week, based on an in-depth 
interview with the artist/writer/musician/performer in question. 

I have no idea whay I went on that long digression, but some folks 
might find it interesting. :-)

I got the feeling that Bragg was desperately trying to lead Pullman 
into making HP comparisons, but Pullman was just as clearly desperate 
not to make them. :-) 

Oh, and something important I forgot to mention last night: I was 
very pleased to hear Pullman's pronunciation of Lyra's daemon's name, 
which I've been wondering about ever since I read the books last 
year: PantaLAImon; the stressed syllable is "lai", with a short "a" 
(i.e pronounced as it is in Pullman's name). 


 




From heidit at netbox.com  Mon Mar 10 10:44:43 2003
From: heidit at netbox.com (Heidi Tandy)
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 06:44:43 -0400
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] "Harry Potter" Means WHAT????
Message-ID: <mailman.34.1576049044.5361.hpfgu-otchatter@archive.hpfgu.org>

I think Bill was confused. "Muggle" is a slang term for marijuana, at least back in the 20's it was. We know this from research done by onliners as well as The Powers That Be relating to the Nancy Stouffer case that was litigated last year, which found that Muggle had many uses that predated Nancy's claimed use. 

But that's just my guess, re: Bill. 


Heidi Tandy
Follow me to FictionAlley - Harry Potter fanfics of all shapes, sizes and ships - 7 sickles an ounce
http://www.FictionAlley.org 
-----Original Message-----
From: "Molly Rahe" <molly at elizabethjewelry.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 10:27:08 
To:HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] "Harry Potter" Means WHAT????

Real-To:  "Molly Rahe" <molly at elizabethjewelry.com>

Delurking here to tell y'all what I saw last night on Bill Mahar.
There was a skit entitled "The Marijuana Logs". In it, they listed
names used for the drug. One was Harry Potter! Interesting.... So are
you shocked? Amused? Suprised? Angry? Happy? New This Already?

I for one am curious as to why. Maybe it is a safe word to use.

What do you think?

Twiggymolly




________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________

Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the group's Admin Files!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/

Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying!

Is your message...
An announcement of merchandise, news etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements.
Movie-related? Send it to HPFGU-Movie.
Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups.
None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter.
Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com

Unsubscribing? Email HPFGU-OTChatter-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
____________________________________________________________ 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 





From plumeski at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 10 10:48:34 2003
From: plumeski at yahoo.com (gulplum)
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 10:48:34 -0000
Subject: "Harry Potter" Means WHAT????
In-Reply-To: <b4hp9s+6a3c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b4hqi2+8h8a@eGroups.com>

Molly Rahe wrote:
> Delurking here to tell y'all what I saw last night on Bill Mahar.
> There was a skit entitled "The Marijuana Logs". In it, they listed
> names used for the drug. One was Harry Potter! Interesting.... So 
are
> you shocked? Amused? Suprised? Angry? Happy? New This Already?
> 
> I for one am curious as to why. Maybe it is a safe word to use.

I didn't know, but considering it's been called "pot" for longer than 
most people can remember, I can't say that I'm surprised. 

On reading the first sentence of your post, I thought you were going 
to talk about "muggle" being one of the words for "joint", but 
clearly not... 

:-)






From heidit at netbox.com  Mon Mar 10 12:36:00 2003
From: heidit at netbox.com (heiditandy)
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 12:36:00 -0000
Subject: Earliest Memories of the World Outside (was Forcing Kids To Watch History Made)
In-Reply-To: <b3n1k8+a8ov@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b4i0rg+hip5@eGroups.com>

Late last month, we had a thread on childhood beliefs - and at the 
end of the thread, Elkins wrote: 

> Fortunately, not all of my childhood delusions proved true...

I was pointed to a site this morning which has a massive sorted-by-
theme collection of "childhood beliefs" - you can find the site 
here: http://iusedtobelieve.com/

As the site says, "i  used to believe is a collection of ideas that 
adults thought were true when they were children. it will remind you 
what it was like to be a child, fascinated and horrified by the 
world in equal parts. the following pages will reassure you that the 
things you used to believe weren't so strange after all..."

So I am sharing this, in hopes that some of you might get a kick out 
of it - or add your beliefs to the collection. 


heidi




From fakeplastikcynic at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 10 13:11:47 2003
From: fakeplastikcynic at hotmail.com (martha)
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 13:11:47 -0000
Subject: Time Travel
In-Reply-To: <20030307134637.17742.h007.c011.wm@mail.thequiltbug.com.criticalpath.net>
Message-ID: <b4i2uj+8m9t@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Calliope" <julia at t...> wrote:
> Has anyone else read time-travel fiction, and wants to share the 
author's
> theories, in hopes of figuring out either the Harry and the 
Patronus confusion
> or the Ron!Dumbledore theory?

Now me (poking head out of Lurker's Corner):

I don't know how useful this is going to be in actually solving any 
mysteries, but the Stephen Fry novel "Making History" looks at what 
happens when someone *does* change time - I'll try and summarise, 
because it's fairly complicated (but anyone who likes this sort of 
thing shoud read it, it's fantastic, and it's Stephen Fry who is The 
Man). Ahem. Anyway, in the book we have Michael (the young history 
student) and Professor Zuckermann (the old physics guy) who are both 
obsessed with changing the past so that the Holocaust never happened. 
Zuckermann in particular hates that his father was an active Nazi. 
Anyway, neither of them want to actually kill Hitler, so instead they 
devise a way to send a male sterilisation pill back in time so that 
it contaminates Hitler's father's drinking water, and the entire 
world flips upside down. Turns out that even though Hitler was never 
conceived, the entire thing happens anyway, and the world is in an 
even worse state (I won't go into the details, but due to various 
events the Holocaust happens anyway and the civil rights movement and 
legalisation of homosexuality don't). It leaves Michael in an 
insanely difficult dilemma situation - but Fry explains all this much 
better than I can. Anyway, just a thought to add to the cauldron 
(dodgy metaphor??).

Hope that's useful, or at least vaguely interesting,

Martha




From molly at elizabethjewelry.com  Mon Mar 10 13:19:48 2003
From: molly at elizabethjewelry.com (Molly Rahe)
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 13:19:48 -0000
Subject: "Harry Potter" Means WHAT????
Message-ID: <b4i3dk+f12g@eGroups.com>

Actually, It was not Bill who said this at all.

On his show, there was three guys who preformed a skit entitled "The
Marijuana Logs" It was a copy of the Vagina Monolouges. They were
pro-pot obviously. Anyways, one part of it was to list all the names
people use for marijuana, past and present. Muggle was listed, and at
the end, so was Harry Potter. They certainly seemed to be in the know
about current pot culture.

Twiggymolly








--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Heidi Tandy" <heidit at n...> wrote:
> I think Bill was confused. "Muggle" is a slang term for marijuana,
at least back in the 20's it was. We know this from research done by
onliners as well as The Powers That Be relating to the Nancy Stouffer
case that was litigated last year, which found that Muggle had many
uses that predated Nancy's claimed use. 
> 
> But that's just my guess, re: Bill. 
> 
> 
> Heidi Tandy
> Follow me to FictionAlley - Harry Potter fanfics of all shapes,
sizes and ships - 7 sickles an ounce
> http://www.FictionAlley.org 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Molly Rahe" <molly at e...>
> Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 10:27:08 
> To:HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] "Harry Potter" Means WHAT????
> 
> Real-To:  "Molly Rahe" <molly at e...>
> 
> Delurking here to tell y'all what I saw last night on Bill Mahar.
> There was a skit entitled "The Marijuana Logs". In it, they listed
> names used for the drug. One was Harry Potter! Interesting.... So are
> you shocked? Amused? Suprised? Angry? Happy? New This Already?
> 
> I for one am curious as to why. Maybe it is a safe word to use.
> 
> What do you think?
> 
> Twiggymolly
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________
> 
> Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the group's Admin Files!
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/
> 
> Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary
material from posts to which you're replying!
> 
> Is your message...
> An announcement of merchandise, news etc.? Send it to
HPFGU-Announcements.
> Movie-related? Send it to HPFGU-Movie.
> Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups.
> None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter.
> Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods --
MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com
> 
> Unsubscribing? Email HPFGU-OTChatter-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
> ____________________________________________________________ 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




From lupinesque at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 10 14:03:01 2003
From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 14:03:01 -0000
Subject: Philip Pullman
In-Reply-To: <b4hq5b+8er6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b4i5ul+rkjj@eGroups.com>

GulPlum wrote:

> If it is ever shown in the U.S., I highly doubt that it'll be on 
> PBS.  As far as I know, most UK TV shows on PBS are from the BBC, 
> which isn't quite the be-all and end-all of British TV (this isn;t 
> one of their shows). :-)

Yes, PBS runs a lot of BBC shows.  It's just what I think of when I 
look for British TV here, not knowing where else to look.  However:

> However, from other interests of mine, I know that various South 
Bank 
> Show programmes have been shown on A&E (the Arts & Entertainment 
> Network?) on cable, and I wouldn't be surprised if this one turns 
up 
> there as well. 

Oh, okay.  Thanks for the guide to US TV!  <g>  Even after 4 years 
with a dish, I know next to nothing about what is on cable/satellite 
channels.  The only time I've tuned in A&E was to watch JKR on 
Biography (Harry Potter & Me in the UK).

<snipped digression on South Bank>

> I have no idea whay I went on that long digression, but some folks 
> might find it interesting. :-)

Yes.  There was an excellent History of English done here, I guess 
15+ years ago now (dear me but I'm getting old), Robert MacNeil 
narrating (& spearheading?).  MacNeil is a Canadian native and long-
time interviewer and news broadcaster in the US.  The Jim Lehrer News 
Hour can't compare with the MacNeil-Lehrer News Hour, IMHO.
 
> Oh, and something important I forgot to mention last night: I was 
> very pleased to hear Pullman's pronunciation of Lyra's daemon's 
name, 
> which I've been wondering about ever since I read the books last 
> year: PantaLAImon; the stressed syllable is "lai", with a short "a" 
> (i.e pronounced as it is in Pullman's name).

I am not following this (to me "ai" and "short a" mean very different 
sounds), but the fantastic audiobooks with a full cast and with 
Pullman narrating are probably an infallible guide.  The stress is on 
that syllable and the "ai" is pronounced like the word "I."

Amy Z






From silveroak_us at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 10 15:09:48 2003
From: silveroak_us at yahoo.com (silveroak_us)
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 15:09:48 -0000
Subject: Philip Pullman
In-Reply-To: <b4goir+3hlv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b4i9rs+evu7@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "gulplum" <plumeski at y...> 
wrote:
> As I said in the .sig in my last message, tonight's South Bank Show 
> (apologies to non-UK residents) was all about Philip Pullman, and 
> specifically the His Dark Materials trilogy. The main element was a 
> lengthy interview with Pullman, filmed "now" (i.e. fairly recently).
> 
     <snip> 

Now me:

I am reading John Granger's "The Hidden Key to Harry Potter" and he 
hypothesizes that JKR based Gilderoy Lockhart on Pullman. He also 
goes on to offer some sharp contrasts between JKR's approach to good 
and evil over against Pullman's. In Granger's view, JKR's is *better*.

  **  Martin Miggs, the Mad Muggle  **





From jenP_97 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 10 15:54:31 2003
From: jenP_97 at yahoo.com (jenp_97)
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 15:54:31 -0000
Subject: 4 years ago today...
Message-ID: <b4icfn+kkge@eGroups.com>

My oldest daughter was born.  At 7:41am.  It 
seems amazing that I'm "grown up" enough to 
have such a big girl, and I know it'll be even 
more amazing next year and the years to come.

However, my daughter is still young enough to 
say and think very funny things.

;)

This morning, my husband and I sang happy 
birthday to her while she was eating her 
breakfast.  She had this really sour look on 
her face the whole time.  When we finished, 
she pursed her lips and said, "But today is 
NOT MY BIRTHDAY!!!!!!!"

My husband said, "But Ginger, remember when 
Mommy said that your *party* was on Saturday 
and your real birthday was on Monday?"

Ginger just growled into her breakfast.

So my husband said, "At least we can agree 
that you're four now, right?"  No response.  
"Ginger?  You're not three anymore, are 
you?"

Ginger:  "NO!  I'M STILL FOUR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" 
in a really loud yell.

So anyway, Chris and I are just going to 
avoid any mention of her birthday for the 
rest of the day.  It'll just have to be a 
funny story to tell her when she gets older. 
:)

JenP, who can't believe her daughter will go 
to kindergarten after the next birthday!




From lupinesque at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 10 16:02:45 2003
From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 16:02:45 -0000
Subject: Philip Pullman
In-Reply-To: <b4i9rs+evu7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b4icv5+10f3t@eGroups.com>

Silveroak wrote:
 
> I am reading John Granger's "The Hidden Key to Harry Potter" and he 
> hypothesizes that JKR based Gilderoy Lockhart on Pullman.

Hee!  This is enchantingly nasty, but what's the basis?  Pullman's 
character flaws seem to be of the curmudgeonly variety, not of the 
vain publicity-seeking Adonis variety.

NB:  Granger is Christian and might take just a bit of offense at 
Pullman's less-than-charitable look at the church, Christian 
theology, and the common exegesis of the Fall.  (I prefer to think 
that Milton and Blake, Christians both, would have cackled gleefully 
at Pullman's heterodox religious views.)

> He also 
> goes on to offer some sharp contrasts between JKR's approach to 
good 
> and evil over against Pullman's. In Granger's view, JKR's is 
*better*.

I beg to differ.  I certainly agree strongly with Pullman's opinion 
as related by GulPlum:  our moral choices are all too often not 
between good and a clear-cut evil, but between two positions that 
both persuasively argue that they are good; and much of the evil that 
men and women do is done in the earnest pursuit of a misbegotten 
ideal.  Almost all of the rest is done with a *patina* of good 
intentions.  But the masquerade takes in even the practitioner, which 
is why it's so tricky to see through.

Amy




From amphoteric at esatlink.com  Mon Mar 10 16:15:25 2003
From: amphoteric at esatlink.com (lisa amphoteric)
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 16:15:25 -0000
Subject: Philip Pullman
In-Reply-To: <b4goir+3hlv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b4idmt+mfp5@eGroups.com>


GulPlum wrote:

[much snippage]

> I was susprised that a ~40 mins interview about these books didn't
> contain a single mention of the words "Rowling" or "Potter". :-)
>
> Especially considering the tone and range of subjects covered, which
> included some erudite (and apposite) comments on writing for a mixed
> audience (i.e. kids and adults), the importance of third person
> limited narration (which I must admit I'd never really thought about
> before), what to do with the parents and other adults when children
> are the heroes of the story, etc., etc.
>
> Except for one or two specifics about the plots of the books, the
> interview could well have been with JKR. I could imagine her
> answering the vast majority of the questions using exactly the same
> words.

I was really impressed that neither of them brought up Harry Potter. 
While I agree that some responses sounded like JKR, I found it 
particularly interesting to hear him say that he'd realised he didn't 
do funny very well, and so didn't. The comparisons between His Dark 
Materials and HP seem dreadfully misleading to me because of this - 
there's no glimmer of humour in HDM, and I think many casual HP 
readers are probably attracted to the books by the humour above all 
else. Just my opinion, anyway, but I think the HDM audience overlaps 
with that of HP, rather than being the same.


> That's probably all I have to say on the issue. Perhaps other people
> sawe the programme as well?

I'm in Ireland, and happened to record it as well as watching it - if
anyone's interested in transcripts of specific parts, I'll give it a 
go, but it's too long for me to do the whole thing.

Having only read His Dark Materials for the first time in the last two
weeks, I've had limited exposure to Pullman interviews, and was 
surprised to hear how he spoke about certain children's authors (C.S. 
Lewis, Tolkien, etc) with respect to religion. JKR is so vague in the 
interviews I've read, but Pullman was extremely open, blunt and 
specific in his answers. His feelings on organised religion are very, 
very clear, and I was surprised to hear him almost speaking with 
anger, as I'd assumed he'd have worked them out through the books.

Hearing the characters' names was great - I'd wondered too about 
Pantalaimon (and liked the final 'n' pronounced as if French) and 
also Asriel.

I should probably have waited for a more articulate mood before 
making my first post (after about six months of lurking on this and 
the main list), but have been thinking about the interview all day 
and couldn't resist responding. So, um, hello. :D


lisa / amphoteric





From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 10 18:32:41 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 18:32:41 -0000
Subject: "Harry Potter" Means WHAT????
In-Reply-To: <b4hp9s+6a3c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b4ilo9+mjv7@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Molly Rahe" <molly at e...> wrote:
> Delurking here to tell y'all what I saw last night on Bill Mahar.
> There was a skit entitled "The Marijuana Logs". In it, they listed
> names used for the drug. One was Harry Potter! Interesting.... So are
> you shocked? Amused? Suprised? Angry? Happy? New This Already?
> 
> I for one am curious as to why. Maybe it is a safe word to use.
> 
> What do you think?
> 
> Twiggymolly

bboy_mn
Well, it seems that this reference was clearly about marijuana, but I
wanted to point out the recently, very recently, there was a large
bust of HP Ecstasy or ecstacy-like tablets with the HP logo on them in
the classic HP font that is used with most commercial references to
Harry Potter. Can't remember what that font is call thought.

A little off the main subject but I thought I would throw it in. I'm
pretty sure I stubbled across this information on some UK news
website, but I don't remember which one.

bboy_mn

PS: another old Harry Potter (movie) & Marijuana story

http://movies.go.com/news/2001/1/potterdrugs010801.html




From plumeski at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 10 19:43:08 2003
From: plumeski at yahoo.com (gulplum)
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 19:43:08 -0000
Subject: Philip Pullman (3 replies)
In-Reply-To: <b4i9rs+evu7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b4ipsc+feft@eGroups.com>

silveroak_us wrote:

<snip> 

> I am reading John Granger's "The Hidden Key to Harry Potter" and he 
> hypothesizes that JKR based Gilderoy Lockhart on Pullman. He also 
> goes on to offer some sharp contrasts between JKR's approach to
> good and evil over against Pullman's. In Granger's view, JKR's is 
> *better*.

I've heard of that book (being online, it's difficult not to have 
done) but that's a major recommendation against buying it, if the 
above statements are true.

I simply cannot see how Lockhart could have been based on Pullman. 
Pullman may be somewhat curmugeonly and have a low pain threshold for 
stupidity, but he's not vain, and from everything I've ever read or 
seen or of about him, is quite self-deprecating about his literary 
success and achievements. 

It was quite clear from the interview that of all his oevre, the 
single item of which he is most proud was a stage production he wrote 
when he was a teacher (I don't recall the title, but it had something 
to do with elephants and the Middle East).

I'm really curious what attributes Granger could find in common 
between them...

I find the notion of considering either JKR's or Pullman's view of 
evil to be "better just a little bit silly. They're very different, 
for starters. 

I have a vague idea of what Granger's religious views are, but if he 
holds stock in any kind of Christianity, Pullman's identification of 
all organised religious authority as inherently "evil" (well, not 
good, at least) would be enough to turn him off.

Note that in this respect, Pullman's vision of religious "authority" 
isn't only of the temporal kind (e.g. Catholicism) but of the 
heavenly kind as well. Pullman's solution of the establishment of 
a "republic of heaven" is anathema to any self-respecting Christian 
with an intellectual appreciation of what they believe in. 

Pullman's depiction of religious authority as the ultimate in harming 
human development (either as an individual or society) is more than 
enough to divide opinions, literary critics/analysts among them. 

JKR doesn't even approach the topic of religious authority. Political 
and social authority, yes, but there is nothing ecclesiastical about 
it. Making any kind of comparison between the two is therefore more 
than a little pointless and unworthy of any valid literary analysis.

lisa amphoteric wrote (last point first):

> I should probably have waited for a more articulate mood before 
> making my first post (after about six months of lurking on this and 
> the main list), but have been thinking about the interview all day 
> and couldn't resist responding. So, um, hello. :D

And hello to you, too! If you get any more articulate than that post, 
I for one will have to find a rock to hide, so please feel free not 
to wait for "more articulate modds". :-)

> The comparisons between His Dark Materials and HP seem dreadfully 
> misleading to me because of this - there's no glimmer of humour in 
> HDM, and I think many casual HP readers are probably attracted to 
> the books by the humour above all else. Just my opinion, anyway, 
> but I think the HDM audience overlaps with that of HP, rather than 
> being the same.

I agree entirely with your assessment, Lisa. Where Harry is sarcastic 
in his replies to figures of authority (one of my major problems with 
Movie!Harry is the watering down of that aspect of his personality to 
the point of non-existence), Lyra and Will are dour and serious. 
Where Harry and friends have "adventures" (until GoF, at least), Lyra 
and Will are on a righteous *mission*. And I'm not quite so sure that 
it's just the casual readers for whom the humour of HP is a major 
attraction. Speaking for myself, when opening the books for 
involvemnt in some intense discussion or other, it's usually 
something funny which sends me off reading much more than I had 
intended. :-)

It's not just humour. I think (perhaps very personal opinion) that 
JKR does emotion better than Pullman does, as well. The penultimate 
chapter of GoF left me quite literally sobbing when I first read it 
(although a grown bloke willing to admit to possessing emotions, I 
don't break into floods of tears *that* easily) and it leaves me 
bleary-eyed every time I've read any of it since. The sheer bloody 
*INJUSTICE* of it all gets to me every time. 

The end of HDM, the culmination of well over 1,000 pages of turmoil, 
left me satisfied rather than heartbroken. It was the only possible 
ending, and although sad for Will and Lyra, it was justice on a 
cosmic scale (quite literally, in some respects). Even Will's dad's 
death, although a shot out of the blue, comes as something of an 
emotional anti-climax. As for Lyra's parents, well they sort of peter 
out rather than go out with a bang, considering their relationship 
and their differing attitudes towards The Authority underpin the 
entire narrative.

Although I'm sure that Potter Book Seven will end on a note of cosmic 
justice, there will be more than sadness underpinning it, and I 
expect to be wailing once THE END shows up.

As it happens, I've also read Pullman's attempt at mysteries 
(featuring Sally Lockhart) and although the sense of place (Victorian 
London) was very real, I felt the plotting a bit lacking, and far too 
much relied on coincidences and stupid villains. Again, there's 
absolutely no humour.

I've noticed that since I started on the above, Amy made similar 
points more succinctly, but Pilate-like, I shall leave what I wrote.
She also asked for more info on the pronuciation of "Pantalaimon".  

The audiobooks are no real guide to what the author wanted (which 
doesn't necessarily mean that the author's opinion is "correct"). 
I've spent most of the day trying to think of an English word which 
includes the necessary pronunciation of the "lai" syllable, and the 
only example I can think of is "kayak". Turn the first k into an l, 
drop the "ak" and the way you'd pronounce the resulting "lay" is what 
we're looking for.

-- 
GulPlum AKA Richard, who's just noticed that he started writing this 
almost four hours ago...





From lupinesque at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 10 20:19:03 2003
From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z)
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 20:19:03 -0000
Subject: Pullman: religion, humor, pronunciation
In-Reply-To: <b4ipsc+feft@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b4irvn+10mdc@eGroups.com>

GulPlum wrote:

> Pullman's solution of the establishment of 
> a "republic of heaven" is anathema to any self-respecting Christian 
> with an intellectual appreciation of what they believe in. 

You think so?  I am not sure, and I'm not Christian, but it seems to 
me I've met a lot of Christians who would embrace that idea as 
perfectly compatible with their faith.  In fact, the Jesus Seminar 
folks (who are admittedly controversial) tend to quibble with the 
phrase "kingdom of heaven," believing that what's in the Greek is 
actually much more egalitarian than that term suggests.  My 
concordance is at work and I find the online ones tedious, so I'll 
check tomorrow.

Pullman's opinion notwithstanding, one does not have to worship the 
Authority to be Christian.  Plenty of Christians believe that God 
does not want to rule us but created us to be free.  Likewise, plenty 
share Pullman's opinion that the Church's hatred of sexuality and the 
body/the physical has been very destructive and is not in keeping 
with the essence of Christian teaching.  Pullman may see Christianity 
as hopelessly out of step with his views, but I think he's wrong.  

I hope some Christians will weigh in.

Incidentally, I also think his views of Christianity--his residue of 
anger, yes, I agree, Lisa--get in the way of his literary 
interpretation.  He thinks Tolkien's sagas are infected with Roman 
Catholic dogma.  I think that like Granger, he is perhaps holding 
what he knows about the author's beliefs against him 
inappropriately.  JRRT was a devout RC, but he had no trouble at all 
creating a cosmology that explicitly contradicts Genesis, and IMO he 
is not in any way creating a Christian allegory, rife with images of 
sacrifice etc. though it may be (contrary to popular opinion, 
Christianity did not invent the idea of redemptive sacrifice).
I agree with Lisa and Richard re: humor--Pullman's writing is not in 
the least bit funny, whereas JKR makes me laugh out loud even on my 
umpteenth reading.  (What's more, I laugh at things I didn't laugh at 
on the first 5 readings.)

I don't agree with this, though . . .

> It's not just humour. I think (perhaps very personal opinion) that 
> JKR does emotion better than Pullman does, as well. 

<SPOILER ALERT . . . for His Dark Materials>

Yes, it is very personal.  JKR can reduce me to tears (in my case, 
NOT difficult to do), but so can Pullman.  When Lyra found Tony 
Makarios, I was trembling with fear and pity.  I was a wreck when she 
and Pan went under the knife, and when Lee and Hester died, and as 
for the end of the trilogy . . . absolute puddle time.  But like 
humor, tears are very idiosyncratic.

> The audiobooks are no real guide to what the author wanted 

I was figuring that when he's present and participating in the 
taping, they are . . . but if he pronounces the final "n" in 
Pantalaimon the French way, then I'm wrong, because that's not how 
it's pronounced on the tapes.

Amy




From melclaros at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 10 22:25:50 2003
From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros)
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 22:25:50 -0000
Subject: "Harry Potter" Means WHAT????
In-Reply-To: <b4ilo9+mjv7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b4j3de+sebc@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <bboy_mn at y...> wrote:

> Well, it seems that this reference was clearly about marijuana, but 
I
> wanted to point out the recently, very recently, there was a large
> bust of HP Ecstasy or ecstacy-like tablets with the HP logo on them 
in
> the classic HP font that is used with most commercial references to
> Harry Potter. Can't remember what that font is call thought.
> 
> A little off the main subject but I thought I would throw it in. I'm
> pretty sure I stubbled across this information on some UK news
> website, but I don't remember which one.
> 
> bboy_mn
> 
> PS: another old Harry Potter (movie) & Marijuana story
> 
> http://movies.go.com/news/2001/1/potterdrugs010801.html



Oh dear, oh dear. Bewitching the mind and ensnaring the senses are 
they? 

Mel, who just can't help it sometimes.




From melclaros at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 10 22:30:25 2003
From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros)
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 22:30:25 -0000
Subject: Need Help with Wands Photo Link
In-Reply-To: <b4g81n+a1fr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b4j3m1+1131v@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <bboy_mn at y...> wrote:
> Somewhere on one of the HPFGU boards someone in the past posted a 
link
> to a HP photo archive that had pictures of the wands of the various
> Cast member from the HP movie. 
> 
> It seems it was a general movie information site that had a large HP
> gallery. I think the photos of the wands themselves may have come 
for
> one of the HP calenders or HP postcard books or HP Sticker books. 




You may have found it already, sorry I should have given you this 
link sooner: 

http://www.countingdown.com/movies/harrypotter/multimedia/images/

I have some of these photos on a desk calendar

Mel






From melclaros at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 10 22:48:20 2003
From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros)
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 22:48:20 -0000
Subject: Need Help with Wands Photo Link
In-Reply-To: <b4g81n+a1fr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b4j4nk+10uir@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <bboy_mn at y...> wrote:
> Somewhere on one of the HPFGU boards someone in the past posted a 
link
> to a HP photo archive that had pictures of the wands of the various
> Cast member from the HP movie. 
> 
> 
> Can anybody help me find a link to these wand photos?

My bad...the one in my last post was for that other movie. THIS is 
the one you want:
http://www.countingdown.com/movies/harrypotter2/multimedia/images/

Mel




From gwendolyngrace at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 10 22:52:46 2003
From: gwendolyngrace at yahoo.com (Gwen)
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 14:52:46 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Founders' Feast Sells Out; 6 days and counting....
Message-ID: <20030310225246.17795.qmail@web13502.mail.yahoo.com>

Nimbus - 2003 is happy to announce that the special
event: Founders' Feast: A Taste of the UK, has sold
out!

We are thrilled that this event has proven so popular.
Because we can increase our numbers a bit depending on
demand, we have a waiting list open on our
registration system, so if you are still interested in
the Founders' Feast, please sign on to the waiting
list and we will contact you if and when more seats
become available.

The Founders' Feast: A Taste of the UK is our field
trip to Disney's EPCOT Center UK Pavilion. In an
informal reception right alongside the lake, sample
traditional foods mentioned in the books, such as
cottage pie, fish and chips, and sticky toffee
pudding. Wash it all down with the one and only
Guinness (if you're over 21!) - all provided by the
world-famous Rose and Crown pub.


Meanwhile, there's still 6 days to take advantage of
our $129.75 USD (that's one hundred twenty-nine and
three-quarters dollars) registration fee. Pay via
credit card or PayPal and save on express mail fees.
Fees go up on March 16 and registration counts when
your payment is *received* - so don't wait another
minute to register!
(http://www.hp2003.org/nimbusregister.html)


And finally, don't forget that you can help make
Nimbus - 2003 a success by becoming a personal
sponsor. Since HPEF, Inc., now has 501(c)3 status, US
taxpayers may qualify for taxable deduction when they
donate to Nimbus. Show your support for this historic,
first-of-its-kind event by becoming a Prefect, Headboy
or Headgirl, Deputy Headmaster or Headmistress, or
even earn an Award for Special Services to the
Symposium. Contact Heidi Tandy for more information,
or read about it on our Sponsorship Page!
(http://www.hp2003.org/nimbushelpsp.html)

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/



From gwendolyngrace at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 10 23:07:17 2003
From: gwendolyngrace at yahoo.com (Gwen)
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 15:07:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Founders' Feast Sells Out; 6 days and counting....
Message-ID: <20030310230717.20049.qmail@web13502.mail.yahoo.com>

Three things:

1. I can't count. You have 5 days left for this rate.

2. That's a "charitable" deduction, not a "taxable"
deduction. Sigh. I can hear our tax attorney
approaching me with her wet noodle now....

3. This is proof that Nimbus - 2003 is sucking my
brain dry. Wait! New theory on why exactly Cornelius
Fudge is such a blithering idiot... it's because being
Minister of Magic is what does it to you....

Before the end, folks, I promise, I'll make
announcements without having to correct them
afterward.

Gwen
--- Gwen <gwendolyngrace at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Nimbus - 2003 is happy to announce that the special
> event: Founders' Feast: A Taste of the UK, has sold
> out!
> 
> We are thrilled that this event has proven so
> popular.
> Because we can increase our numbers a bit depending
> on
> demand, we have a waiting list open on our
> registration system, so if you are still interested
> in
> the Founders' Feast, please sign on to the waiting
> list and we will contact you if and when more seats
> become available.
> 
> The Founders' Feast: A Taste of the UK is our field
> trip to Disney's EPCOT Center UK Pavilion. In an
> informal reception right alongside the lake, sample
> traditional foods mentioned in the books, such as
> cottage pie, fish and chips, and sticky toffee
> pudding. Wash it all down with the one and only
> Guinness (if you're over 21!) - all provided by the
> world-famous Rose and Crown pub.
> 
> 
> Meanwhile, there's still 6 days to take advantage of
> our $129.75 USD (that's one hundred twenty-nine and
> three-quarters dollars) registration fee. Pay via
> credit card or PayPal and save on express mail fees.
> Fees go up on March 16 and registration counts when
> your payment is *received* - so don't wait another
> minute to register!
> (http://www.hp2003.org/nimbusregister.html)
> 
> 
> And finally, don't forget that you can help make
> Nimbus - 2003 a success by becoming a personal
> sponsor. Since HPEF, Inc., now has 501(c)3 status,
> US
> taxpayers may qualify for taxable deduction when
> they
> donate to Nimbus. Show your support for this
> historic,
> first-of-its-kind event by becoming a Prefect,
> Headboy
> or Headgirl, Deputy Headmaster or Headmistress, or
> even earn an Award for Special Services to the
> Symposium. Contact Heidi Tandy for more information,
> or read about it on our Sponsorship Page!
> (http://www.hp2003.org/nimbushelpsp.html)
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
> http://taxes.yahoo.com/
> 


__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/



From kung_fucat at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Mar 11 00:02:56 2003
From: kung_fucat at yahoo.co.uk (kung_fucat)
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 00:02:56 -0000
Subject: Pullman: religion, humor, pronunciation
In-Reply-To: <b4irvn+10mdc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b4j93g+uk3b@eGroups.com>


---I unfortunatly missed most of the program, but saw the ending which
was predictably enough about organised religion (I don't think I've
seen him being interviewed about anything else!).  I was quite
interested in his venomous view of the Narnia stories. I think his
views were slightly over the top as children don't, in my experience,
see the religious overtones to the books. I certainly didn't until I
re-read them as an adult. I don't believe children are getting the
messages he seemed to think they were (for those who didn't see it, he
was saying that C.S.Lewis sent Susan went to hell because she wore
make-up).

I did genuinely love the books and will be watching reports of the
filming of the trilogy with interest.


 In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Amy Z" <lupinesque at y...> wrote:
> 
> 
> Pullman's opinion notwithstanding, one does not have to worship the 
> Authority to be Christian.  Plenty of Christians believe that God 
> does not want to rule us but created us to be free.  Likewise, plenty 
> share Pullman's opinion that the Church's hatred of sexuality and the 
> body/the physical has been very destructive and is not in keeping 
> with the essence of Christian teaching.  Pullman may see Christianity 
> as hopelessly out of step with his views, but I think he's wrong.  
> 
> I hope some Christians will weigh in.

I would describe myself as a Christian and have been all my life.  In
my opinion the Church and some of its teachings are flawed. The Church
is created by people and people can be both corrupt and prejudiced.
Jesus' life and teachings do in my opinion show a better way of living
your life then the rituals and rules of the catholic church. 



> 
> Incidentally, I also think his views of Christianity--his residue of 
> anger, yes, I agree, Lisa--get in the way of his literary 
> interpretation.  He thinks Tolkien's sagas are infected with Roman 
> Catholic dogma.  I think that like Granger, he is perhaps holding 
> what he knows about the author's beliefs against him 
> inappropriately.  
 
 Yes I'd agree with this too, see above.


Vendea
I believe you are a fellow Brummie aren't you Gulplum?




From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Tue Mar 11 00:03:06 2003
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David)
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 00:03:06 -0000
Subject: Pullman, Tolkien, and miscellaneous theology
In-Reply-To: <b4irvn+10mdc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b4j93q+g7s6@eGroups.com>

Amy:

Pullman's 'Republic of Heaven'
> 
> I am not sure, and I'm not Christian, but it seems to 
> me I've met a lot of Christians who would embrace that idea as 
> perfectly compatible with their faith.  In fact, the Jesus Seminar 
> folks (who are admittedly controversial) tend to quibble with the 
> phrase "kingdom of heaven," believing that what's in the Greek is 
> actually much more egalitarian than that term suggests.  My 
> concordance is at work and I find the online ones tedious, so I'll 
> check tomorrow.

I suspect this is one of those issues that a concordance will only 
go so far in resolving.

My understanding of the term is that for us today the word 'kingdom' 
tends to imply a specific type of political government, as in the UK 
or Siam.  This is not necessarily implied by the Jesus' words, which 
may refer rather to God acting in the role of king among his people, 
who are to 'reign' with him.  So one interpretation would be that 
where the Kingdom of Heaven is effective, there is freedom from and 
power over fear, want, disease, and sin (I won't try to define this 
last term here!).

I believe though that the phrase is not one which the disciples 
could have looked up in a dictionary when Jesus first used it: as 
with so many early Christian terms, Jesus (and later the apostles) 
used existing ideas and re-shaped them into new forms which really 
meant that words were being redefined.

> Pullman's opinion notwithstanding, one does not have to worship 
the 
> Authority to be Christian.  Plenty of Christians believe that God 
> does not want to rule us but created us to be free.

One of the puzzles to me of HDM is whether the Authority is supposed 
to be a creator God.  In many ways he fits right in to the Christian 
idea of Satan as the 'God of this world' - that is, the spirit being 
(fallen angel, if you like) who exercises dominion over the world, 
dominion which was originally delegated by God for good but 
arrogated before or at the time of the fall.  Pullman IIRC never 
really explains how the worlds came to be in the first place.

  Likewise, plenty 
> share Pullman's opinion that the Church's hatred of sexuality and 
the 
> body/the physical has been very destructive and is not in keeping 
> with the essence of Christian teaching.  Pullman may see 
Christianity 
> as hopelessly out of step with his views, but I think he's wrong.

Yes, I think so too.  
> 
> I hope some Christians will weigh in.
> 
> Incidentally, I also think his views of Christianity--his residue 
of 
> anger, yes, I agree, Lisa--get in the way of his literary 
> interpretation.  He thinks Tolkien's sagas are infected with Roman 
> Catholic dogma.

That's interesting.  I wouldn't like to say that Tolkien's work 
is 'infected with RC dogma' but I can see why someone with a 
jaundiced view of Catholic teaching might see that in Tolkien.  For 
instance, Tolkien's bad characters have to redeem themselves - 
unlike Lewis' Edmund, nobody dies for them.  Very few of them do.  
Boromir appears to get 'put right' by dying in his attempts to save 
Pippin and Merry.

It's interesting too, to think about Pullman's reported views on the 
body and sexuality in the context of Tolkien.  Again, if one is 
disposed to see these things as peculiarly Catholic (and, of course, 
that is a popular view), then the shortage of feminine characters in 
Tolkien could be seen as evidence of a Catholic worldview.  The 
characters who exercise 'spiritual' power correctly are celibate: 
Frodo, Gandalf; while the 'temporal' lords get married: Aragorn, Sam.

I agree there are non-Christian (or perhaps I should say heretical) 
elements to his writing, too.  Thus the Ainulindale (sp from 
memory!) could IMO be interpreted either as a fairly conventional 
creation story (the angels merely execute God's plan as 
intermediaries) or as an almost Gnostic vision (I'm at the edges of 
my knowledge here, admittedly) in which the creation is the result 
of activity by angels who are 'emanations' of God.  The idea of 
characters such as Olorin (Gandalf) in the Silmarillion proper (or 
is it the Valaquenta? - can't remember) also strikes me as Gnostic 
in form, where an 'angelic' being takes human form.

In general I'd say that there is a very strong tendency in Tokien'd 
work for God, and his agents, to be ever more removed from the scene 
of the action, and 'ordinary people' (read: hobbits) left to get on 
with things.  The intervention of the Valar (angels) in calling the 
elves is acknowledged to be a mistake.  Although the Istari 
(wizards: more angels, this time in disguise and with limited 
powers) do just about succeed, their 80% fall-away rate is 
suggestive (Unfinished Writings).  Aragorn defines his kingship over 
the Shire by declaring that Men should keep out of it - in effect, 
the hobbits should govern themselves (so there's an example of 
how 'kingdom of heaven' and 'republic of heaven' could be presented 
as virtually identical concepts).  It is almost as if Tolkien's idea 
is that we want a proper king to rule us because only he can show 
the appropriate degree of inactivity; activists like Saruman or even 
Boromir and Denethor are always given the authorial thumbs-down.  
Apart from giving obscure signs (like the Tree to Aragorn) and 
passing the occasional final judgement (Akallabeth) the function of 
deity is to stay away.

I have rambled enough

David




From golden_faile at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 11 00:05:54 2003
From: golden_faile at yahoo.com (golden faile)
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 16:05:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] 4 years ago today...
In-Reply-To: <b4icfn+kkge@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20030311000554.5691.qmail@web41112.mail.yahoo.com>


 
 jenp_97 <jenP_97 at yahoo.com> wrote:
My oldest daughter was born.  At 7:41am.  It 
seems amazing that I'm "grown up" enough to 
have such a big girl, and I know it'll be even 
more amazing next year and the years to come.

However, my daughter is still young enough to 
say and think very funny things.

;)

This morning, my husband and I sang happy 
birthday to her while she was eating her 
breakfast.  She had this really sour look on 
her face the whole time.  When we finished, 
she pursed her lips and said, "But today is 
NOT MY BIRTHDAY!!!!!!!"

My husband said, "But Ginger, remember when 
Mommy said that your *party* was on Saturday 
and your real birthday was on Monday?"

Ginger just growled into her breakfast.

So my husband said, "At least we can agree 
that you're four now, right?"  No response.  
"Ginger?  You're not three anymore, are 
you?"

Ginger:  "NO!  I'M STILL FOUR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" 
in a really loud yell.

So anyway, Chris and I are just going to 
avoid any mention of her birthday for the 
rest of the day.  It'll just have to be a 
funny story to tell her when she gets older. 
:)

JenP, who can't believe her daughter will go 
to kindergarten after the next birthday! 

And Let me tell you time flies!!! I still don't feel like a mom!!! You'll cry when she goes to kindergarten, No matter how much you swear that you'll be glad for a little peace *chuckle*. Tell Ginger "happy B-Day for me... On second thought maybe not. We wouldn't want to start that episode again :)! Mine is in 6 days, except I'm at the age where it's not getting fun to see another one approaching, if you get my meaning *wink*. 
Laila




Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
var lrec_target="_top";var lrec_URL = new Array();lrec_URL[1] = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.3054233.4378052.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1707544108:HM/A=1430287/R=0/id=flashurl/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405";var link="javascript:LRECopenWindow(1)";var lrec_flashfile = 'http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/intl_library_of_poetry/yahoo_300x250.swf?clickTAG='+link+'';var lrec_altURL = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.3054233.4378052.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1707544108:HM/A=1430287/R=1/id=altimgurl/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405";var lrec_altimg = "http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/intl_library_of_poetry/yahoo_300x250.gif";var lrec_width = 300;var lrec_height = 250;
________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________

Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the group's Admin Files!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/

Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying!

Is your message...
An announcement of merchandise, news etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements.
Movie-related? Send it to HPFGU-Movie.
Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups.
None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter.
Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com

Unsubscribing? Email HPFGU-OTChatter-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
____________________________________________________________ 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Tue Mar 11 00:10:07 2003
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David)
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 00:10:07 -0000
Subject: Pullman = Lockhart?
In-Reply-To: <b4i9rs+evu7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b4j9gv+pj8k@eGroups.com>

Martin Miggs tested our opinion of his sanity by writing:

> I am reading John Granger's "The Hidden Key to Harry Potter" and 
he 
> hypothesizes that JKR based Gilderoy Lockhart on Pullman.

So, is he saying that Pullman didn't *really* visit all those other 
universes to get the story?  He just interviewed people and memory-
charmed them afterwards?

Disgusting, as Professor Lupin might say.

David




From silveroak_us at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 11 01:01:12 2003
From: silveroak_us at yahoo.com (silveroak_us)
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 01:01:12 -0000
Subject: Pullman = Lockhart?
In-Reply-To: <b4j9gv+pj8k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b4jcgo+8acl@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "David" <
dfrankiswork at n...> wrote:
> Martin Miggs tested our opinion of his sanity by writing:
> 
> > I am reading John Granger's "The Hidden Key to Harry 
Potter" and 
> he 
> > hypothesizes that JKR based Gilderoy Lockhart on Pullman.
> 
> So, is he saying that Pullman didn't *really* visit all those other 
> universes to get the story?  He just interviewed people and 
memory-
> charmed them afterwards?
> 
> Disgusting, as Professor Lupin might say.
> 
> David

Now me:

Just so I am sure about this, whose sanity is being questioned? 
Is is Pullman's? Is is Granger's? Is it mine (Miggs)?

I wait with bated breath.

** Martin Miggs, the Mad Muggle  **




From andry-f at postmark.net  Tue Mar 11 01:06:20 2003
From: andry-f at postmark.net (anyankavengeance)
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 01:06:20 -0000
Subject: question about Nimbus 2003
Message-ID: <b4jcqc+rsem@eGroups.com>

hi,

I'm a sometime lurker on this group, and I'd like to attend the 
symposium, but I have a question about the chaperoning. I'm fifteen. 
does this mean that I need to have an adult supervisor actually 
purchase a ticket and attend the event with me, or can they just 
drive me to and from the event and leave a few telephone numbers 
where they can be reached? I live about an hour and a half away from 
orlando, so that's why I say 'drive' in lieu of 'fly' or what have 
you. ;)

I tried to ask this question with the form on the website, but I 
assume something went wrong or there was an overload or whatever, 
since I never got a reply . . . I hope this hasn't been asked too 
often already, and that it's okay to ask it here. I hate to waste 
people's time.

anyway, hope someone can help or at least direct me to someone who 
can. I'm really excited about going. ;)

-andry (fil)




From gwendolyngrace at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 11 03:13:05 2003
From: gwendolyngrace at yahoo.com (gwendolyngrace)
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 03:13:05 -0000
Subject: question about Nimbus 2003
In-Reply-To: <b4jcqc+rsem@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b4jk81+4t5a@eGroups.com>

>From our FAQ:

http://www.hp2003.org/nimbusfaq.html#general

Q: Will I be welcome? I'm 20/I'm 17/I'm 14/I'm 12/I'm 3.


A: We're trying to make Nimbus - 2003 as accessible an event as 
possible to the widest number of fans we can, while remaining 
committed to our focus on adults. For legal reasons, we cannot accept 
registrations from minors (i.e., people under 18) unless they have a 
parent, legal guardian or authorised adult chaperone present. People 
under 18 must travel with a parent, legal guardian or authorised 
adult chaperone, who must either remain within the hotel area or 
leave a cellular/mobile telephone contact in case of emergency. We 
may also ask parents to sign and send us additional permission forms 
once the formal programming is determined.

Ages 14-17: must be accompanied to the Symposium by a parent, legal 
guardian or an authorised adult chaperone (such as a schoolteacher) 
(i.e., not another HP fan who happens to be going, unless they're 
your parent or person acting in loco parentis). Nimbus is an adult 
conference and parents should be advised that some programming may 
contain adult themes and language. If the minor will be accompanied 
by a chaperone other than a parent or legal guardian, the parent or 
legal guardian must provide signed and notarized written consent. Any 
minors arriving with a chaperone but without a notarized and signed 
consent form will not be admitted.



We're looking in to what happened with the helpdesk form.

Gwen


--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "anyankavengeance" <andry-
f at p...> wrote:
> hi,
> 
> I'm a sometime lurker on this group, and I'd like to attend the 
> symposium, but I have a question about the chaperoning. I'm 
fifteen. 
> does this mean that I need to have an adult supervisor actually 
> purchase a ticket and attend the event with me, or can they just 
> drive me to and from the event and leave a few telephone numbers 
> where they can be reached? I live about an hour and a half away 
from 
> orlando, so that's why I say 'drive' in lieu of 'fly' or what have 
> you. ;)
> 
> I tried to ask this question with the form on the website, but I 
> assume something went wrong or there was an overload or whatever, 
> since I never got a reply . . . I hope this hasn't been asked too 
> often already, and that it's okay to ask it here. I hate to waste 
> people's time.
> 
> anyway, hope someone can help or at least direct me to someone who 
> can. I'm really excited about going. ;)
> 
> -andry (fil)




From thalia at aokp.org  Tue Mar 11 03:15:15 2003
From: thalia at aokp.org (chanteuse thalia chaunacy)
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 19:15:15 -0800
Subject: simple pleasures ...
Message-ID: <WorldClient-F200303101915.AA15150297@aokp.org>

i sat in my car today during my lunch break and explored a bag of bertie 
botts.

it was gleeful. i giggled like a schoolgirl, spat out the spinach, 
nervously didn't touch anything that looked like vomit, giggled some 
more... the grass is almost tasty, but i am a hippie, afterall.

<big ole grin>

just wanted to share--and to reiterate that i love this group. to be 22 
and have someone(s) to giggle with about dirt-flavored jellybeans--well, 
that's a shiny treasure if i ever saw one.

oh, and shameless plug: my story's updated and in severe need of readers, 
all you R/Hrm folks out there. :) and the next chapter will be up (cross 
yer fingers) in about two hours.

http://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1106151

and when i was a kid i was simply afraid of everything. everything. beds, 
mirrors, dark, light, bugs, trees, people...i think i read too many books 
(i know, heresy to say such a thing). bout the only place i wasn't scared 
was in church, for obvious reasons. i'm still scared of the dark and 
spiders. but my 6'5" brother is afraid of spiders so i am not ashamed.

my parents and i just found their LP of mister rogers. we were taken 
aback and kinda had a moment to let it sink in. he was my childhood. he 
helped make me the person (pacifist, lover, perky optimist) i am.

<squints, trying to think of the rest of the threads that have been 
meandering around> well, i can't contribute to the education thread very 
thoughtfully because i went to a private high school (though on hefty 
scholarship only) and have tried not to read the newspaper because it 
only makes me cry. :(

and on that thrilling note... ;)

thalia 'bertie botts for everyone!' chaunacy

"Ah, music. A magic beyond all we do here!"  -Albus Dumbledore




From smotgreg at hotmail.com  Tue Mar 11 04:49:26 2003
From: smotgreg at hotmail.com (Greg Johnson)
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 20:49:26 -0800
Subject: Please answer me back at my personal email
Message-ID: <F63HDm4awypq8VePGty00006d34@hotmail.com>

I know this question crosses the political boundries of HPfGU. Heck, it may 
not even be posted, which is OK, since I'm just looking for a broadening of 
my fishbowl existance. So please, do not post your answers on OTChatter, 
email me at my personal address.

The scenerio: My mom and dad have been traveling in Europe for the past 
month or so, following the Nordic Combined World Cup. We have close family 
friends participating who we love to cheer. Being from a skiing family we 
have hosted skiiers from all over, and have danced at many European tables 
during previous World Cup events. (Since I have moved away and started my 
own family, I don't participate as actively as I have before). Anyway, at 
the last stop, my parents, in their excitment (because America does not do 
well in this sport at all) pulled out their little American flags (as 
opposed to the big flags we used to drape ourselves in-knowing the political 
climate we are in) to cheer one of our athletes on and they we spat upon. 
And that just cuts me to the heart, because no matter how much I have 
disagreed with someone, I have yet to spit on anyone.

So that brings me to you, wanting your thoughts, HP friends (who I would not 
spit upon if you were to show up at Nimbus 2003 with your country's flag on 
your lapel)

* Does your media make you aware that several Americans oppose our 
President's agenda, and though we may protest, feel sickenly sad that our 
voice is not being heard?

* Is America really hated that strongly now in Europe? And elsewhere?

* Do you have the power to rid your country of American influences you don't 
like? By this I mean get rid of the McDonald's and Gaps and "Americanized" 
places. Nothing made me more frustrated then trying to find a fish and chips 
spot in London and walking past hordes of American fast food places. Admit 
it, the food is gross.

I love the world and I love to travel and meet people from all over. That is 
what attracted me most to this website: the thrill of talking Harry Potter 
with someone from another place, another viewpoint, another life experience. 
I just don't want to lose that, you know?

So email me (at my personal address, please). You can rant, curse, be nice, 
question life, whatever. I guess I'm just such a Pollyanna about these 
things and want this "ugliness" to be better, or better yet, over.

Sincerely, Stacie









_________________________________________________________________
Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online  
http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963




From nobodysrib at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 11 05:48:10 2003
From: nobodysrib at yahoo.com (nobodysrib)
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 05:48:10 -0000
Subject: "Harry Potter" Means WHAT????
In-Reply-To: <b4ilo9+mjv7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b4jtaq+61bu@eGroups.com>

Twiggymolly wrote:

> > Delurking here to tell y'all what I saw last night on Bill Mahar.
> > There was a skit entitled "The Marijuana Logs". In it, they listed
> > names used for the drug. One was Harry Potter! Interesting.... So 
are
> > you shocked? Amused? Suprised? Angry? Happy? New This Already?
> > 
> > I for one am curious as to why. Maybe it is a safe word to use.
> > 

I saw that skit, too.  It's not a largely used reference (if you went 
to the corner of the red light district and asked to buy a bag of 
Harry Potter, I doubt they'd know what you're talking about...).  I'm 
guessing the reference stems from one of two places: some marijuana 
has "red hairs" on it, which can be a sign of 
higher "quality/strength."  (Hairy/Harry).  Also, there's the Pot-
part of "Potter."  But I hadn't ever heard of it as a reference 
before seeing the skit, so this is all speculation.

- Nobody's Rib





From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Tue Mar 11 13:22:03 2003
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David)
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 13:22:03 -0000
Subject: Pullman = Lockhart?
In-Reply-To: <b4jcgo+8acl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b4knts+ujf1@eGroups.com>

Martin Miggs asked

> Just so I am sure about this, whose sanity is being questioned? 
> Is is Pullman's? Is is Granger's? Is it mine (Miggs)?
> 
> I wait with bated breath.
> 
> ** Martin Miggs, the Mad Muggle  **

Well, I suppose it should be Granger's, really.  But it was a 
reference to your sig.

David, who, incidentally, has never watched the South Bank Show




From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Tue Mar 11 13:28:07 2003
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David)
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 13:28:07 -0000
Subject: Pullman = Lockhart? Sanity clause
In-Reply-To: <b4knts+ujf1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b4ko97+jmvt@eGroups.com>

> Martin Miggs asked

> > Just so I am sure about this, whose sanity is being questioned? 

I wrote:

> it was a  reference to your sig.

Just realised, for the benefit of US members: mad here means insane, 
not angry.

So, in COS, Martin Miggs the Mad Muggle is not in a permanent state 
of rage, rather, his behaviour seems insane, presumably seen through 
the prism of the WW's cultural assumptions.

It would be fun to speculate what one of his typical adventures, 
involving, no doubt, ekeltricity and escapators, might be.

David




From sevothtarte at gmx.net  Tue Mar 11 15:11:34 2003
From: sevothtarte at gmx.net (Torsten)
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 16:11:34 +0100
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Pullman & Lewis
In-Reply-To: <b4ipsc+feft@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <U63SOBAJEHBWULHCC0POZ97NIMIOM.3e6dfca6@tk>

Gulplum:
>I have a vague idea of what Granger's religious views are, but if he 
>holds stock in any kind of Christianity, Pullman's identification of 
>all organised religious authority as inherently "evil" (well, not 
>good, at least) would be enough to turn him off.

It would be interesting to hear a debate between Rowling and Pullman on Narnia... 
Afaik, JKR loves the books, while Pullman has a slightly different view:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,726739,00.html

-Torsten






From golden_faile at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 11 15:17:36 2003
From: golden_faile at yahoo.com (golden faile)
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 07:17:36 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Thanks Guys!!!!
In-Reply-To: <WorldClient-F200303101915.AA15150297@aokp.org>
Message-ID: <20030311151736.4124.qmail@web41109.mail.yahoo.com>


 


Did I not tell you guys that I was still a big FRAIDY CAT? I was fine just going along with my life, not really worrying about anything. I even read all of the "bloody Mary" posts.I figured that If I wasn't afraid of it then, that I wouldn't be now. That was until I got up in the middle of the night last night to go to the bathroom and was faced with a mirror(It was pitch black)!!! Mind you, I just quickly turned my back and flipped on the lights. I just wanted to give ya'll a heartfelt thanks ;)!

 

Laila

who will now be leaving on the bathroom light, as well as the halwway light *sigh*.




Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
var lrec_target="_top";var lrec_URL = new Array();lrec_URL[1] = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.3054233.4378052.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1707544108:HM/A=1430287/R=0/id=flashurl/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405";var link="javascript:LRECopenWindow(1)";var lrec_flashfile = 'http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/intl_library_of_poetry/yahoo_300x250.swf?clickTAG='+link+'';var lrec_altURL = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.3054233.4378052.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1707544108:HM/A=1430287/R=1/id=altimgurl/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405";var lrec_altimg = "http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/intl_library_of_poetry/yahoo_300x250.gif";var lrec_width = 300;var lrec_height = 250;


________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________

Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the group's Admin Files!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/

Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying!

Is your message...
An announcement of merchandise, news etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements.
Movie-related? Send it to HPFGU-Movie.
Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups.
None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter.
Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com

Unsubscribing? Email HPFGU-OTChatter-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
____________________________________________________________ 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 




---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From lupinesque at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 11 16:24:02 2003
From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 16:24:02 -0000
Subject: Pullman, Lewis, and miscellaneous theology
In-Reply-To: <b4j93q+g7s6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b4l2j2+nu1b@eGroups.com>

Vendea wrote:

> Jesus' life and teachings do in my opinion show a better way of 
living
> your life then the rituals and rules of the catholic church. 

One of the things that interests me about Pullman's parallel universe 
is that the Church-with-a-capital-C is not RC, but Calvinist.  It's 
as if he's teasing anti-Catholic Protestants:  "What, you think you'd 
have come up with something better if Calvin had had his way?"

BTW, when I read Narnia as a child (8? 9?), I got the religious 
significance in some vague ways.  E.g., I got that Aslan was God, and 
when I said so to my dad, he said, "Well, Jesus," which made me feel 
a bit disillusioned.  I was Jewish and thought that was rather sneaky 
of Lewis.  <g>  It wasn't until later that I got the specific 
significance of the Stone Table and such, but I think children absorb 
the gist of a lesson long before they know what it means 
specifically.  So, yes, without any thoughts of hell and so forth, I 
got that Susan is BAD and what she did was therefore BAD.

David wrote:

> My understanding of the term is that for us today the 
word 'kingdom' 
> tends to imply a specific type of political government, as in the 
UK 
> or Siam.  This is not necessarily implied by the Jesus' words, 
which 
> may refer rather to God acting in the role of king among his 
people, 
> who are to 'reign' with him.  So one interpretation would be that 
> where the Kingdom of Heaven is effective, there is freedom from and 
> power over fear, want, disease, and sin (I won't try to define this 
> last term here!).
> 
> I believe though that the phrase is not one which the disciples 
> could have looked up in a dictionary when Jesus first used it: as 
> with so many early Christian terms, Jesus (and later the apostles) 
> used existing ideas and re-shaped them into new forms which really 
> meant that words were being redefined.

Yes, and I take the play of "Republic of Heaven" with "Kingdom of 
Heaven" as a sort of midrash--a playful-yet-serious use of language 
to dig into deeper questions of theological significance.  You don't 
have to believe that Jesus actually imagined God as an autocrat in 
order to criticize the church for promoting that idea, explicitly and 
implicitly.  

> One of the puzzles to me of HDM is whether the Authority is 
supposed 
> to be a creator God.  In many ways he fits right in to the 
Christian 
> idea of Satan as the 'God of this world' - that is, the spirit 
being 
> (fallen angel, if you like) who exercises dominion over the world, 
> dominion which was originally delegated by God for good but 
> arrogated before or at the time of the fall.  

It has often seemed to me that what some people worship as God sounds 
an awful lot like my idea of Satan, so his switcheroo was very 
familiar.

>Pullman IIRC never 
> really explains how the worlds came to be in the first place.

No, he leaves it explicitly open.  He does say that the Authority was 
*not* the Creator.

Balthamos said quietly, "The Authority, God, the Creator, the Lord, 
Yahweh, El, Adonai, the King, the Father, the Almighty--those were 
all names he gave himself.  He was never the creator.  He was an 
angel like ourselves--the first angel, true, the most powerful, but 
he was formed of Dust as we are . . . . The forst angels condensed 
out of Dust, and the Authority was the first of all.  He told those 
who came after him that he had created them, but it was a lie."  (The 
Amber Spyglass, 31-32 [US hardcover]; ch. 2)

and

[this is Ogunwe speaking:]  " . . . the Authority is not the 
creator.  There may have been a creator, or there may not: we don't 
know.  All we know is that at some point the Authority took 
charge . . . " (The Amber Spyglass, 210 [US hardcover]; ch. 16)

Incidentally, re: Gnosticism, I don't think Pullman or his heroes are 
Gnostics, because the Gnostics put spirit high above matter in the 
old hierarchy, and saw humans as spirits trapped in the hated 
physical world.  But one figure who is very important in Gnosticism 
is Sophia, Wisdom (also personified in the Bible, but given short 
shrift by most Jewish and Christian tradition), and I suspect she 
appears in HDM as Xaphania--note the similarity of the names 
(Xaphania="Sophania").  I also suspect Xaphania is the wise angel who 
discovers the truth and leads the rebellion against the Authority, as 
explained by Balthamos in the continuation of the passage above.

Amy Z




From lupinesque at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 11 16:26:03 2003
From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 16:26:03 -0000
Subject: Pullman = Lockhart? Sanity clause
In-Reply-To: <b4ko97+jmvt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b4l2mr+699n@eGroups.com>

You can't fool me!  There ain't no Sanity Clause!

Chico Z




From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 11 20:29:44 2003
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 20:29:44 -0000
Subject: Pullman = Lockhart? Sanity clause
In-Reply-To: <b4l2mr+699n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b4lgvo+b1ka@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Amy Z" <lupinesque at y...> 
wrote:
> You can't fool me!  There ain't no Sanity Clause!
> 
> Chico Z

That's irrelevant!  -Chico. (Chico "Z"??)

One day I shot an elephant in my pyjamas-- how he got into them I'll 
never know.  -Groucho "Z".

-Lydia the Tatooed Lady

Honk! Honk!  -Harpo "Z".

Hey, why don't I ever get any funny lines?  -Zeppo "Z".





From andry-f at postmark.net  Tue Mar 11 21:10:24 2003
From: andry-f at postmark.net (anyankavengeance)
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 21:10:24 -0000
Subject: question about Nimbus 2003
In-Reply-To: <b4jk81+4t5a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b4ljc0+1037n@eGroups.com>

hi again - 

I'm sorry to pester you, but I did read the faq, and just wanted to 
be completely sure that I wouldn't need an adult chaperone to 
actually buy a ticket for themselves and attend the entire event with 
me. I just need to make absolutely certain, because if I need an 
adult chaperone to attend with me, I won't be able to go, and, well, 
I don't want to buy a ticket if I can't even go.

thanks for your help - I really appreciate it, and I'm sorry if I 
come across as a complete pigheaded idiot - I just need to be 
perfectly clear on this, and sometimes I need a little more help with 
that than the rest of the ignorant masses. ;)

-andry 

<gwendolyngrace at y...> wrote:
> From our FAQ:
> 
> http://www.hp2003.org/nimbusfaq.html#general
> 
> Q: Will I be welcome? I'm 20/I'm 17/I'm 14/I'm 12/I'm 3.
> 
> 
> A: We're trying to make Nimbus - 2003 as accessible an event as 
> possible to the widest number of fans we can, while remaining 
> committed to our focus on adults. For legal reasons, we cannot 
accept 
> registrations from minors (i.e., people under 18) unless they have 
a 
> parent, legal guardian or authorised adult chaperone present. 
People 
> under 18 must travel with a parent, legal guardian or authorised 
> adult chaperone, who must either remain within the hotel area or 
> leave a cellular/mobile telephone contact in case of emergency. We 
> may also ask parents to sign and send us additional permission 
forms 
> once the formal programming is determined.
> 
> Ages 14-17: must be accompanied to the Symposium by a parent, legal 
> guardian or an authorised adult chaperone (such as a schoolteacher) 
> (i.e., not another HP fan who happens to be going, unless they're 
> your parent or person acting in loco parentis). Nimbus is an adult 
> conference and parents should be advised that some programming may 
> contain adult themes and language. If the minor will be accompanied 
> by a chaperone other than a parent or legal guardian, the parent or 
> legal guardian must provide signed and notarized written consent. 
Any 
> minors arriving with a chaperone but without a notarized and signed 
> consent form will not be admitted.
> 
> 
> 
> We're looking in to what happened with the helpdesk form.
> 
> Gwen
> 





From rvotaw at i-55.com  Wed Mar 12 03:17:19 2003
From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw)
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 21:17:19 -0600
Subject: Question about a UK town
Message-ID: <015a01c2e845$e4d66b00$c49fcdd1@RVotaw>

Hi all,

I'm planning a trip to the UK (June 2004 is the tentative date.  Yes, I plan ahead.) and have heard about a town their I want to visit, but I don't know the name of it.  All I know is it's main source of business is antique book shops.  That other than that it is a relatively small place.  Anyone able to identify this?

Also, I naturally want to see as many HP sites as I can.  What is worth going to?  Particularly between Alnwick Castle, Gloucester Cathedral, Bodleian Library, Christ Church, and Lacock Abbey.  Anything else I'm forgetting?  (Besides King's Cross, of course, that's a must for me.)

Thanks for your help!

Richelle


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk  Wed Mar 12 08:17:10 2003
From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak)
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 08:17:10 -0000
Subject: Question about a UK town
In-Reply-To: <015a01c2e845$e4d66b00$c49fcdd1@RVotaw>
Message-ID: <b4mqe6+7pea@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Richelle Votaw" 
<rvotaw at i...> wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> I'm planning a trip to the UK (June 2004 is the tentative date.  
Yes, I plan ahead.) and have heard about a town their I want to 
visit, but I don't know the name of it.  All I know is it's main 
source of business is antique book shops.  That other than that it 
is a relatively small place.  Anyone able to identify this?
<Snip>
> Richelle

It sounds as if you're thinking of the small town of Hay-on-Wye in 
Wales (just) which is quite well known for its book festival, and 
the number of specialist second-hand bookshops.

The official website is http://www.hay-on-wye.co.uk/

Pip




From ladyfarro at attbi.com  Wed Mar 12 06:04:45 2003
From: ladyfarro at attbi.com (kae)
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 22:04:45 -0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] simple pleasures ...
References: <WorldClient-F200303101915.AA15150297@aokp.org>
Message-ID: <024801c2e86e$ddaacc80$3caae10c@attbi.com>

I like those Bertie Bot beans myself!  Since I can't see the colors, I just
eat 'em.  The dirt really does taste like dirt!  The sardines one is bad!
What I'd like to taste, is .... butterbeer!
Kae and Idaho my Golden Seeing Eye dog





From blessedbrian at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 12 13:23:58 2003
From: blessedbrian at yahoo.com (Brian Cordova)
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 13:23:58 -0000
Subject: "Harry Potter" Means WHAT????
In-Reply-To: <b4hp9s+6a3c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b4ncde+l9jc@eGroups.com>


  Well, I do refer to myself as a "Potterhead".  

  Brian:-)




From nina.baker at uk.faulding.com  Wed Mar 12 16:05:47 2003
From: nina.baker at uk.faulding.com (nb100uk)
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 16:05:47 -0000
Subject: Question about a UK town
In-Reply-To: <015a01c2e845$e4d66b00$c49fcdd1@RVotaw>
Message-ID: <b4nlsr+260r@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Richelle Votaw" 
<rvotaw at i...> wrote:
> > Also, I naturally want to see as many HP sites as I can.  What is 
worth going to?  Particularly between Alnwick Castle, Gloucester 
Cathedral, Bodleian Library, Christ Church, and Lacock Abbey.  
Anything else I'm forgetting?  (Besides King's Cross, of course, 
that's a must for me.)
> 
Goodness, you'll have to travel a bit to get to all these places.  Is 
your trip entirely HP (movie) related?

I think I would have to recommend Lacock Abbey - it's a lovely 
ancient place, with the cloisters, abbey and a museum.  In addition, 
the trip is worthwhile as Lacock, the village, is guaranteed to take 
your breath away.  It has been used in numerous films - Emma, Pride 
and Prejudice and others.  There's also a wonderful inn that I spent 
my wedding night in some years ago called 'Sign of the Angel'.  The 
whole village is preserved as a National Trust area which means that 
every building is cared for and it's heritage preserved, yet it's not 
a museum, people live and work here.

It's a beautiful area of the country to visit with Bath, Gloucester, 
the Cotswolds and Stonehenge very close by.  Also, if you're keen on 
visiting the Bodlean library (incredible) and Christ Church, the 
drive through the Cotswolds to Oxford is a gorgeous route.

Of course I'm biased as my family are from the area, but I now live 
just outside Stratford-upon-Avon which, although touristy, is always 
worth a visit.

I think you could probably visit most of the sites you've mentioned 
fairly easily, except Alnwick Castle which is WAY WAY up north near 
the Scottish border (if my geography recollection serves me!)

As you mentioned Hay-on-Wye, the book festival is usually on in May, 
and is a real attraction.  Major speakers such as Bill Clinton, Maya 
Angelou, and acts like Macy Gray and Van Morrison appear regularly.  
I seem to recall that JKR herself visted some years ago.  You may 
want to change your visit date - the weather is so variable in this 
country that there's no guarantee that June will be warmer than May 
(and I think May is prettier - spring flowers and Mayday 
celebrations).

So, start in London and Kings Cross (remembering that JKR got the 
layout wrong and the platforms 9-10 really were meant to be platforms 
4-5!!), and make your way to the West Country.  Have a good visit and 
if you need a guide around Stratford, let me know!

Nina





From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 12 18:17:58 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 18:17:58 -0000
Subject: The Coma, The Portkey, and The Language
Message-ID: <b4ntkm+3pam@eGroups.com>

A recent thread has heightened my awareness of how critical
punctuation can be, and how vital it is to the accuracy of our
communication.

A recent thread debated the use of an apostrophe, and whether the
"Marauder's" in the 'Marauder's Map' referred to Prongs, Padfoot,
Moony, and Wormtail collectively, or whether it referred to any
general marauder who might be using the map at the moment.

The assumption by most people is that based on "The Marauder's Map",
it is OK to refer to the authors of the map collectively as 'The
Marauders'. The counter argument was that "Marauder's" is singular,
and for a collective reference to be valid, it would have to be "The
Marauders' Map". The simple placement of an apostrophe completely
changes the meaning, and produces fuel for endless, although fun, debates.

Now to the subject at hand. We have debated the nature of the
Tri-Wizard's Cup Portkey to the extreme, incorporating theories
ranging from the mundane to the insane. Part of the debate hinges on
whether the Cup was already a portkey to which fake!Moody added a stop
(originally from inside the maze to outside the maze, to which he
inserted inside the maze to the graveyard to outside the maze), or
whether, he created the original portkey effect (maze to graveyard),
and the return trip (graveyard back to maze) portkey was appended by
some unknow magical entity. Perhaps, somehow, Harry's father James,
since he informed Harry that the Cup would take him back, was able to
enchant the Cup for the return trip.

As I was rereading GoF, I stumble across a passage related to this
debate, however it is not my intention to restart the debate, but to
re-enforce to all the proper punctuation doubters out there, just how
critical these things are to effective and accurate communication.

Having said that, I will add that I still think the English language
is an insane incomprehensible jumble of rules and acceptions that even
the best of us are not full proficient at.

Goblet of Fire; Am HB, Chapter "Veritaserum"; pg 688. Barty Crouch
Junior is speaking.

" ... Ensure he (Harry) reached the Triwizard Cup. Turned the cup into
a Portkey, which would take the first person to touch it to my master...."

Bear in mind that while far above average, I consider myself only
marginally proficient in the structure and application of the English
language. So my interpretation may be wrong, but I think it will still
serve to illustrate my point.

Interpretation 1:
" ...Turned the cup into a Portkey, which would take the first person
to touch it to my master...."

With the comma separating 'Portkey' and 'which', it separates those
entities into two separate events-

A.) create a Portkey out of the Triwizard Cup.
B.) Program that Portkey to take the first person to touch it to the
graveyard.

Interpretation 2:
" ...Turned the cup into a Portkey which would take the first person
to touch it to my master...."

Now with OUT the comma between 'Portkey' and 'which', the emphasis
shifts from 'Turned... into... a Portkey' to 'take ... to my master'.

The implication here is that the Cup may have already been a Portkey,
and all fake!Moody did was make it 'take.. (Harry)... to my master'.


Again, I am not trying to re-open the Portkey debate, it's just that,
in light of the many recent discussions of proper use of the English
language, and the proper use of punctuation in applying that language,
 I was struck by how dramatically the meaning of this simple sentence
changed with the addition or subtraction of that comma.

I suspect that legal cases have been won or lost based on the
placement of a comma. I vaguely remember aspect of the Microsoft
anti-trust trials that came down to interpreting intent based on
punctuation. 

In contrast, we see people posting on the internet who don't believe
in punctuation at all, no capital letters, no periods, no comma, & no
semicolons. So oppressive are the rules that they become grammar and
punctuation anarchists. 

I assume their logic is that speech doesn't have punctuation; it just
flows out, and people seem to understand it. Although, we all know
that isn't true. Speech is filled with pauses, shifts in tone,
demeanor, inflection, facial expressions and other body language that
all serve as punctuation. 

Again, I go back to the courtroom where statements without the context
carried by the speakers actions and demeanor, completely change in
meaning. 'I'll kill you' could just as easily be a joke or a tease
spoken to a friend as it could be a threat. The words alone without
their 'punctuation' lose true meaning.

The world of Fan Fiction has it's own writing anarchist, many of whom
write in script format (that's script as in sceenplay, not cursive) on
the assumption that life has no narrative. James Earl Jones' voice
does not overlay our lives, speaking the things that go unspoke. 

Many people are dead set against and refuse to read stories in script
format, because no written story can be told in spoken words alone. I
confess that I write some of my stories in a script-like format, but
my stories contain long narratives, as well as descriptions of how
words are being spoken; with anger, saddness, humor, curiousity, etc.

Final point; as much as even the best of us resists the oppressive and
nearly impossible to understand rules and regulations of grammar and
style; they are vitally important to effective communication.

I now pray for mercy from those who will surely proofread this post
and point out it's many errors.

Just some thoughts.

bboy_mn

PS: Regardless of punctuation, my interpretation is that the Cup was
always a portkey, and fake!Moody merely added an additional stop.





From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 12 18:42:02 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 18:42:02 -0000
Subject: The **Coma**, The Portkey, and The Language
In-Reply-To: <b4ntkm+3pam@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b4nv1q+t7sa@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <bboy_mn at y...> wrote:

 Steve, who hereby fully acknowledges that he spelled 'comma' wrong,
and  has most appropriately slammed his ears in the oven door.


 bboy_mn





From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk  Wed Mar 12 19:15:47 2003
From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte)
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 19:15:47 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] The Coma, The Portkey, and The Language
References: <b4ntkm+3pam@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3E6F8763.000001.64739@monica>

 bboy_mn     wrote -

Goblet of Fire; Am HB, Chapter "Veritaserum"; pg 688. Barty Crouch
Junior is speaking.
 
" ... Ensure he (Harry) reached the Triwizard Cup. Turned the cup into
a Portkey, which would take the first person to touch it to my master...."
 
Bear in mind that while far above average, I consider myself only
marginally proficient in the structure and application of the English
language. So my interpretation may be wrong, but I think it will still
serve to illustrate my point.
 
Interpretation 1:
" ...Turned the cup into a Portkey, which would take the first person
to touch it to my master...."
 
With the comma separating 'Portkey' and 'which', it separates those
entities into two separate events-
 
A.) create a Portkey out of the Triwizard Cup.
B.) Program that Portkey to take the first person to touch it to the
graveyard.
 
Interpretation 2:
" ...Turned the cup into a Portkey which would take the first person
to touch it to my master...."
 
Now with OUT the comma between 'Portkey' and 'which', the emphasis
shifts from 'Turned... into... a Portkey' to 'take ... to my master'.
 
The implication here is that the Cup may have already been a Portkey,
and all fake!Moody did was make it 'take.. (Harry)... to my master'.
 
Now me -

I fully admit that when it comes to punctuation commas are my weakness, I
tend to forget to use them - just ask my beta reader. Her main work is
throwing bucket loads of commas at my work :) Having said that I was taught
that whenever you use the word which it has to have a comma in front of it,
whereas using that doesn't. So the sentence couldn't be written without a
comma unless she wrote ".... turned the cup into a Portkey that ...."

I realise I'm completely ignoring your Portkey point and focussing on the
grammar, but I'm hoping someone here will be able to cite a reputable source
to either confirm my idea of comma usage or prove me wrong. In my corner is
the Microsoft Word spell checker, which picks me up on this constantly - but
I was taught this at school too. I think. 

Argh - does anyone know why my spell checker insists on resetting itself to
American English? Because it's really annoying me now. It just tried to
replace the s in realise with a z. 

K



From the.gremlin at verizon.net  Wed Mar 12 19:39:02 2003
From: the.gremlin at verizon.net (ats_fhc3)
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 19:39:02 -0000
Subject: HP on Sparknotes.com
Message-ID: <b4o2cm+4r47@eGroups.com>

So I'm looking up stuff on Sparknotes.com when I come across 
SparkNotes (for those of you who may not know, SparkNotes are an 
online version of Cliffs Notes...kinda) for all four Harry Potter 
books! Now, I've always that SparkNotes does literature, but can the 
Harry Potter be categorized under the term 'literature'?

Has anyone actually, seriously, studied Harry Potter in a class? I 
have always drawn a strict line between 'literature' and 'fiction', 
and I honestly don't consider Harry Potter to be 'literature.' I 
guess it depends on your opinion. I think literature includes the 
literary canon, Shakespeare, Emmerson, Thoreau, Poe, and pretty much 
anyone who wrote a book and is now dead. The classics. Fiction is 
the stuff that's been published in the last 50 years, though there 
may be a few exception that I don't remember at the moment. That's 
my definition, anyway.

Just thought I'd share...Any thoughts?

-Acire, who is reading the SparkNotes because she wants to know how 
they'll analyze everything...




From heidit at netbox.com  Wed Mar 12 19:51:20 2003
From: heidit at netbox.com (heiditandy)
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 14:51:20 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] HP on Sparknotes.com
In-Reply-To: <b4o2cm+4r47@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <001c01c2e8d0$c2239a70$9865fea9@Frodo>


> Has anyone actually, seriously, studied Harry Potter in a class?

Seriously, and the programming team can address this better than I can
(as I'm just on the Sponsor/Exhibitor side of things) but hundreds of
people are gathering in Orlando in July for a four-day conference on
Harry Potter, and there are a number of presentations focusing on it as
"literature". Included among the presenters are professors from over a
dozen universities, colleges and graduate schools. 

This fall, the Modern Language Association is also convening a multiday
session on Harry Potter, with a slightly more academic focus (Nimbus -
2003 will have presentations geared towards librarians, teachers and
attorneys, but as I understand it, the MLA will not). 

And there have been classes over the past few years where the HP books
were part of the curriculum - and not just education classes either. 

So yes, there is serious academic study of Harry Potter - come to Nimbus
- 2003 and see some of it!

Heidi Tandy

PS - the Nimbus - 2003 informational url is http://www.hp2003.org




From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 12 22:32:17 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 22:32:17 -0000
Subject: HP on Sparknotes.com
In-Reply-To: <b4o2cm+4r47@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b4ochh+npk1@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "ats_fhc3" <the.gremlin at v...>
wrote:
> So I'm looking up stuff on Sparknotes.com when I come across 
> SparkNotes (for those of you who may not know, SparkNotes are an 
> online version of Cliffs Notes...kinda) for all four Harry Potter 
> books! Now, I've always that SparkNotes does literature, but can the 
> Harry Potter be categorized under the term 'literature'?
> 
> ...edited...
> 
> That's my definition, anyway.
>  
> Just thought I'd share...Any thoughts?
> 
> -Acire, who is reading the SparkNotes because she wants to know how 
> they'll analyze everything...

bboy_mn:

I think we are up against the 'I say potAAto and you say potAHto' syndrom.

You say-

literature
and
fiction

I say-

Classic literature
and
Contemporary literature

By definition and in the sense that you are using it, literature must
have artistic merit, so the daily newspaper is not literature, Time
magazine is not literature. 

On the other hand, the term is used very loosely in our society. I
could call up a company and ask them to send me some product
literature, and they would know what I was talking about, however
brochures for engine parts would not have artistic merit.

So, I'm guessing there is no absolute answer to your question. You
clearly mean classic literature when you use the word, but the word
has a much broader definition. In the end, it comes down to what
SparkNotes considers literature. 

Just a thought.

bboy_mn







From plumeski at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 12 22:49:37 2003
From: plumeski at yahoo.com (gulplum)
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 22:49:37 -0000
Subject: HP on Sparknotes.com
In-Reply-To: <b4o2cm+4r47@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b4odi1+3pgu@eGroups.com>

Acire, "who is reading the SparkNotes because she wants to know how 
they'll analyze everything" wrote:


> can the Harry Potter be categorized under the term 'literature'?

and 

> I think literature includes the literary canon, Shakespeare, 
> Emmerson, Thoreau, Poe, and pretty much 
> anyone who wrote a book and is now dead. The classics. Fiction is 
> the stuff that's been published in the last 50 years, though there 
> may be a few exception that I don't remember at the moment. That's 
> my definition, anyway.

Ahhh... You have unknowingly (?) hit the nail on the head there: "the 
literary canon". What is a "canon"? It's something which people who 
are generally acknowledged to know what they're talking about decide 
it to be. 

The members of the HPFGU family of lists have decided what the 
HP "canon" means, but by no means is that definition the one applied 
by other groups of fans. In the same way, the "canon" of litterature 
is something which a bunch of academics have decided is valuable and 
worthy of closer attention. 

Personally, I find Dickens a tedious and repetitive writer, who 
betrays with every paragraph that he was writing on a basis of being 
paid per word (well, not quite per word, but his novels were first 
published in serialised form, so the longer he could drag them out, 
the more he was paid). The British educational establishment would 
disagree with me, and Dickens is generally considered part of the 
canon of great British literature.

I am a bit baffled by your definition, which would appear to imply 
that only dead authors can be included in the canon. Of course, most 
of the canon *is* the work of dead people, but that's mainly because, 
well, their books have been around for longer than those written by 
people who are still alive. :-) As a result, they have shown 
their "staying power" and thus are considered "worthy". 

But that doesn't mean that "literature" stopped existing when the 
last great writer died. I don't know about the USA, but certainly 
here in Britain, living authors frequently crop up in reading lists 
in schools, colleges and universities. 

As with any other "canon" (in the word's widest possible meaning) 
choices are frequently arbitrary, often based on prejudice, and 
always subjective and hard to justify. However, we live in a world 
where we like order and we like to know what we're supposed to 
consider to be worthwhile, so "canons" of one thing or another (TV 
shows, films, books, art) are constantly established and we, the hoi 
polloi, are meant to accept that one thing is good while another is 
bad. 

When it comes to books, good writing usually shows. Properly 
constructed sentences and paragraphs telling a properly constructed 
story using interesting language describing rounded characters is 
usually considered worthwhile. The opposite is, well, not. 

However, few books of the latter kind usually get published 
(regrettably, the Internet means that lots of crap writing can get an 
audience anyway) so there's a huge "window" which includes pulp at 
one end and literary masterpieces at the other. What's the 
difference? Don't let anyone force you to believe one way or the 
other. The same goes for TV, plays, movies, the works. 

A big problem now, though, are "post-modern" works, which generally 
are more about the medium than any kind of interest content. There's 
some post-modern stuff which I like, and some I abhore, perhaps 
simply because I don;t "get" it. If someone else does, then fine, but 
I'm not going to say I like it just because it's trendy to do so.

Back to HP: for teenagers, it's aboslutely, definitely, literature. I 
can think of few books which could provide better material to teach 
the rules of literary analysis. The level of debate which the Potter 
books generate online among teenagers is proof that they actually 
*want* to analyse this material. They probably don't realise that 
what they're doing is literary analysis, but I feel immensely 
gratified to see them doing it.

The problem is that the literary establishment hates anything 
populist and thus it's unlikely that the Potter books could enter the 
distinguished canon any time soon. In a way, I'll be sorry when the 
Potters eventually do enter the canon, because kids will be forced to 
read the books, and their analysis will be straight-jacketed by their 
teachers rather than the free-flowing voyage of discovery it 
currently is.

I think that the Potter books will eventually enter the canon 
as "children's books", the way Narnia or LOTR are 
considered "children's books". There's no shame in adults reading 
them, but I doubt that the books will ever be part of a university 
curriculum. That's not a reflection on the level of writing, but of 
the establishment prejudices against the type of story they are. 

A couple of comments on the Sparknotes text. I don;t have time to 
read ebverything, but I've skimmed through their analysis of PoA 
(like most HP readers, my favourite). I'm disappointed in a couple of 
things. I've seen the phrase "animagi form" which doesn't make sense 
(it should be the singular, animagus, and prefereably with a capital 
A). I really don't like the following bit:

"Buckbeak's execution is reversed through a simple intrusion through 
time. [...] Every story has two sides, and in a world where time may 
change, we have to believe that both of them can be true.

Time *doesn't* change, and the execution is *not* reversed. It never 
happened in the first place! The person who wrote that text may know 
something about literary criticism, but bugger-all about 
comprehension or logic.

I really pity the young person who has to write an essay on that 
subject and based on that text, submits an incorrect analysis. If I 
were that young person's teacher, I'd give them a big ZERO for 
comprehension. I wish I had the time to write in to Sparknotes and 
tell them what idiots they've made of themselves with this. 




From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Wed Mar 12 23:00:15 2003
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David)
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 23:00:15 -0000
Subject: HP on Sparknotes.com
In-Reply-To: <b4o2cm+4r47@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b4oe5v+48le@eGroups.com>

Acire wrote:

> I have always drawn a strict line between 'literature' 
and 'fiction',
> and I honestly don't consider Harry Potter to be 'literature.' I 
> guess it depends on your opinion. I think literature includes the 
> literary canon, Shakespeare, Emmerson, Thoreau, Poe, and pretty 
much 
> anyone who wrote a book and is now dead. The classics. Fiction is 
> the stuff that's been published in the last 50 years, though there 
> may be a few exception that I don't remember at the moment. 

I love that!  Once 2047 rolls around, you only need wait for Jo to 
die and, *bing!*, Harry Potter is literature!

I probably won't be around to see it, so in the meantime, I shall 
have to settle for reading it as fiction.

David, realising that "Biggles Flies North" is literature




From lilac_bearry at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 12 23:10:02 2003
From: lilac_bearry at yahoo.com (Lilac)
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 15:10:02 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Miracle in SLC! 
Message-ID: <20030312231002.92240.qmail@web40304.mail.yahoo.com>


The unbelievable has happened...Elizabeth Smart, abducted 9 months ago, was found ALIVE 15 minutes driving distance from her home!  I work at the elementary that Elizabeth attended when she was younger (her younger siblings, including the one who witnessed her abduction, currently attend school here), and we are all completely shocked and, of course, elated!  

Everyone, except the family, had lost hope that she was still alive.  Faded blue ribbons (Elizabeth's favorite color), some shredded and ripped from the weather, still clung to trees and telephone poles, dotting the Salt Lake Valley here and there, left there as a tribute to her memory more than the hope of her coming home alive.  Most of us took down our "Have You Seen Elizabeth?" pictures months ago.  The ones that were still hanging in windows were very badly faded, reminding us of the macabre image of any remains that might be found.  The horrible teasing the two youngest siblings had to endure from a few inconsiderate classmates..."You know your sister is dead, so why do you keep trying to find her alive?".  She'd cross my mind now and then, especially when I saw one of these younger toe-headed siblings in the halls.  We all hurt for the family.  We had all lost hope.  But we had moved on.  

But the family never lost hope.  Never.  They always had the feeling that she was alive somewhere, like in a basement or something.  We still are finding out all the details...whether she had been in the Salt Lake Valley all these months or not, etc.  But she is alive (though far from well, I'm sure) and with her family now.  With everything going on in the world today, I am very thankful that miracles still happen.  

~Lilac~



 

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

"Professor, can you show me that blocking thing again?"

Lockhart cuffed Harry merrily on the shoulder.  "Just do what I did, Harry!"

"What, drop my wand?"

 --Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From plumeski at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 12 23:14:38 2003
From: plumeski at yahoo.com (gulplum)
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 23:14:38 -0000
Subject: Literature
In-Reply-To: <b4o2cm+4r47@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b4of0u+494r@eGroups.com>

Oops. Something I forgot.

Acire wrote:

> I have always drawn a strict line between 'literature' and 'fiction'

*boggle*

Considering 90% of what is considered "literature" is fiction, how do 
you explain that dichotomy?









From the.gremlin at verizon.net  Thu Mar 13 00:05:19 2003
From: the.gremlin at verizon.net (the.gremlin at verizon.net)
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 18:05:19 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Literature
Message-ID: <20030313000519.RZXG6884.pop018.verizon.net@[172.17.10.210]>

I really should think before I get on my soapbox:

I wrote:

"I have always drawn a strict line between 'literature' and 'fiction'"

GulPlum responded:
"Considering 90% of what is considered "literature" is fiction, how do you explain that dichotomy?"

Forgot to clarify. In bookstores, general fiction usually means mysteries, romance, SciFi, true crime, and fantasy. However, I think that contemperary fiction (stuff that's pretty much been written in the past 50 years, with the few exceptions that I can't remember right now) should be included under the giant sign that says "General Fiction" (or, if you're in Borders, that italicized 'b'). The heading of 'literature" would mean books that we associate with the classics and the literary canon. 

Did that clear it up? I hope? Because it's kinda hard to explain...and I think I sprained my thumb or something yesterday and it sorta hurts to type...


-Acire
http://www.underground-newslet.com
The Underground--Fixing your addiction for writing.

"So sorry-dozed off-what have I missed?"
Prof. Lockhart, Chamber of Secrets



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From trinity61us at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 13 00:16:20 2003
From: trinity61us at yahoo.com (alex fox)
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 16:16:20 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Miracle in SLC!
In-Reply-To: <20030312231002.92240.qmail@web40304.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20030313001620.40053.qmail@web14908.mail.yahoo.com>


 
Lilac <lilac_bearry at yahoo.com> wrote:
The unbelievable has happened...Elizabeth Smart, abducted 9 months ago, was found ALIVE 15 minutes driving distance from her home!  
 ME: Thank the Powers That BE!!!!!! I was sitting here all depressed, and what a GREAT way to cheer up!!!! Puts things in perspective!!! I am thrilled for her family and friends!!!! May she get past this and live a happy life!

Alex, Thrilled beyond belief!

 





---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
var lrec_target="_top";var lrec_URL = new Array();lrec_URL[1] = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.3054233.4378052.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1707544108:HM/A=1430287/R=0/id=flashurl/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405";var link="javascript:LRECopenWindow(1)";var lrec_flashfile = 'http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/intl_library_of_poetry/yahoo_300x250.swf?clickTAG='+link+'';var lrec_altURL = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.3054233.4378052.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1707544108:HM/A=1430287/R=1/id=altimgurl/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405";var lrec_altimg = "http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/intl_library_of_poetry/yahoo_300x250.gif";var lrec_width = 300;var lrec_height = 250;

________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________

Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the group's Admin Files!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/

Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying!

Is your message...
An announcement of merchandise, news etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements.
Movie-related? Send it to HPFGU-Movie.
Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups.
None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter.
Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com

Unsubscribing? Email HPFGU-OTChatter-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
____________________________________________________________ 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 




---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pennylin at swbell.net  Thu Mar 13 00:19:22 2003
From: pennylin at swbell.net (Penny Linsenmayer)
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 00:19:22 -0000
Subject: HP on Sparknotes.com
In-Reply-To: <001c01c2e8d0$c2239a70$9865fea9@Frodo>
Message-ID: <b4oiqa+4176@eGroups.com>

Hi all --
> 
> > Has anyone actually, seriously, studied Harry Potter in a class?

It's my understanding that HP classes have been offered in a number of
universities lately, and I'm personally aware of those offered at
Kansas State Univ. and California State - Long Beach.  

Heidi said:> 
> Seriously, and the programming team can address this better than I can
> (as I'm just on the Sponsor/Exhibitor side of things) but hundreds of
> people are gathering in Orlando in July for a four-day conference on
> Harry Potter, and there are a number of presentations focusing on it as
> "literature". Included among the presenters are professors from over a
> dozen universities, colleges and graduate schools.

Actually, there are professors from 34 universities and colleges --
all over the nation, as well as several overseas (the UK, Australia,
Manila and Bombay).  Several of the presenters will be discussing the
topic of whether the HP books are destined to be classics, whether
they are "childrens' literature" or not, etc.  In any case, HP is
definitely considered "literature" worthy of academic study.  There
are no less than 3 compilations of scholarly essays ("The Ivory Tower
and HP," edited by Dr. Lana Whited; "Multidisciplinary Perspectives on
HP," editor Dr. Elizabeth Heilman, and one that is upcoming and edited
by Dr. Giselle Anatol).  
 
> So yes, there is serious academic study of Harry Potter - come to Nimbus
> - 2003 and see some of it!

Yes, do!

Penny




From dkewpie at pacbell.net  Thu Mar 13 01:01:55 2003
From: dkewpie at pacbell.net (Kewpie)
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 01:01:55 -0000
Subject: HP on Sparknotes.com
In-Reply-To: <b4o2cm+4r47@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b4ola3+j52v@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "ats_fhc3" <the.gremlin at v...> 
wrote:
> Has anyone actually, seriously, studied Harry Potter in a class? I 

Sure, my college has an academic class called "Children LITERATURE" 
which we analysis and study Harry Potter (among others are "A Wrinkle 
in Time", "The Secret Garden" etc). Also I don't know if this other 
class would count since my college is an art and design school, we 
once had a full term Entertainment studio class devoted to ONLY Harry 
Potter (the class was offered way before the first movie came out, so 
all the students were free to design the characters/setting in their 
own vision, and let me tell you most student's Snape is way scarier 
than the movie version and Harry is looking as geeky as you can be).

Joan   





From the.gremlin at verizon.net  Thu Mar 13 02:53:01 2003
From: the.gremlin at verizon.net (ats_fhc3)
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 02:53:01 -0000
Subject: HP on Sparknotes.com
In-Reply-To: <b4odi1+3pgu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b4orqd+m6dn@eGroups.com>

In response to my quickly written, not-thought-out post (I hate it 
when I do that) GulPlum wrote:

"Ahhh... You have unknowingly (?) hit the nail on the head 
there: "the literary canon". What is a "canon"? It's something which 
people who are generally acknowledged to know what they're talking 
about decide it to be."

My English teacher, whom I greatly admire, referred to it as that. 
What I thought it meant was that the great novels, poems, sonnets, 
and esays that have been published and are great works of 
literature. They don't necessarily have to have staying power, 
because lately, everyone has been teaching contemperary literature. 
I should also mention here, or somewhere, that I am extremely 
conservative...the reason why my new English teacher and I are at 
odds sometimes...(she's very liberal, most of my University is)
 
"The members of the HPFGU family of lists have decided what the 
HP "canon" means, but by no means is that definition the one applied 
by other groups of fans. In the same way, the "canon" of litterature 
is something which a bunch of academics have decided is valuable and 
worthy of closer attention."

Good point. I didn't consider the fact that we refer to HP books 
as 'canon.' In fact, my ex-boyfriend flipped out when he heard me 
call it that, thinking I was equating  it to the Bible. I 
guess 'literary' canon would distinguish it from other canons. I 
mean, this group is HP only, so when we say 'canon,' everyone knows 
we are talking about the four HP books, plus the 2 school books. 

"But that doesn't mean that "literature" stopped existing when the 
last great writer died. I don't know about the USA, but certainly 
here in Britain, living authors frequently crop up in reading lists 
in schools, colleges and universities."

See, here (States), we don't have any good, local, living authors. 
If we did, or if I had seen a book/essay/poem that was written 
recently, my opinion would be different. Maybe. We haven't had any 
good books written recently. I'm sure someone's else's opinion would 
be different, though. By the way, would you recommend any good 
books? I think I'm under my 3 book-at-a-time quota...
 
"As with any other "canon" (in the word's widest possible meaning) 
choices are frequently arbitrary, often based on prejudice, and 
always subjective and hard to justify."

Hence my opinion. You've just described the basis of it.
  
"However, few books of the latter kind usually get published 
(regrettably, the Internet means that lots of crap writing can get 
an audience anyway) so there's a huge "window" which includes pulp 
at one end and literary masterpieces at the other."

That's where my problem lies. The fact that there's a lot of 'crap 
writing' out there. And not just on the Internet. And some of it is 
really popular. At the writing group I'm part of, we talk about 
books where we wonder how they ever got published...or if they were 
even ever edited. (www.toasted-cheese, if anyone wants to know). No, 
I don't think I'm a better writer than JKR, or anyone, for that 
matter. Never had anything published. It's all sitting on my 
computer, half-unfinished.

"What's the difference? Don't let anyone force you to believe one 
way or the other. The same goes for TV, plays, movies, the works." 

I've decided for myself. I like Harry Potter. But I don't really 
consider it literature. I think that part of it is because the 
series isn't finished yet. I don't like a lot of today's movies and 
TV shows because it's...well, crap. Like that new movie, "How to 
Lose a Guy in 10 Days." Don't get me started on that.
 
"A big problem now, though, are "post-modern" works, which generally 
are more about the medium than any kind of interest content. There's 
some post-modern stuff which I like, and some I abhore, perhaps 
simply because I don;t "get" it. If someone else does, then fine, 
but I'm not going to say I like it just because it's trendy to do 
so."

Neither would I. My problem with contemperary and post-modern stuff 
would probably offend a few people though... I just think that some 
of it isn't *good*. I admire JKR for her hidden clues, etc. That's 
good writing, in my opinion. She's got a diverse audience, when 
critics say these are children's books. The fact that we have this 
group shows how good a writer she is.
 
"Back to HP: for teenagers, it's aboslutely, definitely, literature."

I think it can be literature for adults, too.  

"I can think of few books which could provide better material to 
teach the rules of literary analysis. The level of debate which the 
Potter books generate online among teenagers is proof that they 
actually *want* to analyse this material. They probably don't 
realise that what they're doing is literary analysis, but I feel 
immensely gratified to see them doing it."

This is good material for analyzation because they don't know 
they're analyzing it, and they're having fun doing it. And, since 
it's new, not a lot of teachers are making their students read it 
and write a 500 page paper on the symbolism or something. And if 
they are, they think it's cool, because no one else does it, and 
it's a fun book.
 
"The problem is that the literary establishment hates anything 
populist and thus it's unlikely that the Potter books could enter 
the distinguished canon any time soon. In a way, I'll be sorry when 
the Potters eventually do enter the canon, because kids will be 
forced to read the books, and their analysis will be straight-
jacketed by their teachers rather than the free-flowing voyage of 
discovery it currently is."

I think I don't consider HP part of a literary canon because it's a 
brand new book, and I love it! The literary canon, to me, is a 
distant thing, where I don't know the people, and I can't write a 
letter to the author and ask him/her what he meant by something. 
With HP, it's a fun book to read. I don't feel the need to analyze 
it. Sure, I'll ask, "Do you think this means something?" But I don't 
feel like I have to look at Remus Lupin's name and feel stupid for 
not knowing that it hinted he would be a werewolf. (Please, no one 
comment on that...)
 
"There's no shame in adults reading them, but I doubt that the books 
will ever be part of a university curriculum." 

I would take that class!

"That's not a reflection on the level of writing, but of the 
establishment prejudices against the type of story they are." 

That may be part of my thing with literature vs. general fiction.
 
"A couple of comments on the Sparknotes text.<snip>"

I read them, sort of. They're pretty ridiculous. They leave out half 
the major things that happen. Snape is mentioned in passing, and his 
role in the world of HP is completely diminished...how dare they! 
For the record, Sirius is hardly mentioned. I didn't read all of it, 
so I don't know what they said about Remus. The character analysis 
for SS/PS doesn't even mention Ron (I don't think, I didn't see his 
name on it).

Sorry this was so long...I took a 2 hour break, too...

-Acire, who is going to eat the Reese's Peanut Butter Cup that's 
been sitting in the fridge for the past half an hour...it's been 
calling me...




From the.gremlin at verizon.net  Thu Mar 13 02:56:10 2003
From: the.gremlin at verizon.net (ats_fhc3)
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 02:56:10 -0000
Subject: HP on Sparknotes.com
In-Reply-To: <b4ola3+j52v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b4os0a+hu86@eGroups.com>

Joan wrote:

"Sure, my college has an academic class called "Children LITERATURE" 
which we analysis and study Harry Potter (among others are "A 
Wrinkle in Time", "The Secret Garden" etc). Also I don't know if 
this other class would count since my college is an art and design 
school, we once had a full term Entertainment studio class devoted 
to ONLY Harry Potter (the class was offered way before the first 
movie came out, so all the students were free to design the 
characters/setting in their own vision, and let me tell you most 
student's Snape is way scarier than the movie version and Harry is 
looking as geeky as you can be)."

I want to go to your school...or at least take that class...I would 
have liked to see all those pictures, especally of Snape...alas, no 
artistic talent at all. I can draw a pretty good stick figure, 
though.

-Acire, who wants to know what college that is.




From jeziguh at earthlink.net  Thu Mar 13 04:17:58 2003
From: jeziguh at earthlink.net (jeziguh)
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 04:17:58 -0000
Subject: HP on Sparknotes.com
In-Reply-To: <b4orqd+m6dn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b4p0pm+7dkv@eGroups.com>

Acire wrote:
> See, here (States), we don't have any good, local, living authors. 
> If we did, or if I had seen a book/essay/poem that was written 
> recently, my opinion would be different. Maybe. We haven't had any 
> good books written recently. I'm sure someone's else's opinion 
> would be different, though. 

Would you consider Toni Morrison a "good, local, living" author?  
Because she's alive, still writing, resides in the US, and general 
consensus seems to be that she is a "good" author (and that Nobel 
Prize in Literature also helps).  

I'm not touching the "canon" discussion, but I did want to mention 
that I'm a college senior, a literature major, and I took a class 
entitled "Oz and Harry Potter" last semester.  So yes, it is offered 
at universities.  Incidentally, the class filled up within an hour of 
the opening of registration :)

-jeziguh, who is currently taking a Toni Morrison graduate class





From dkewpie at pacbell.net  Thu Mar 13 05:49:31 2003
From: dkewpie at pacbell.net (Kewpie)
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 05:49:31 -0000
Subject: HP on Sparknotes.com
In-Reply-To: <b4os0a+hu86@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b4p65b+k2i6@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "ats_fhc3" <the.gremlin at v...> 
wrote:
> I want to go to your school...or at least take that class...I would 
> have liked to see all those pictures, especally of Snape...alas, no 
> artistic talent at all. I can draw a pretty good stick figure, 
> though.
> 
> -Acire, who wants to know what college that is.

The name of my college is "ArtCenter College of Design", located in 
Pasadena, California. Many art teachers in the school are HP fans 
too! And the Children Literature class teacher seems to be a big fan 
of the Weasley. :) Some of the students' works are brilliant, in my 
opinion, they're way better than the drawings on those awful WB HP's 
merchandise!  

Joan




From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk  Thu Mar 13 09:10:53 2003
From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte)
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 09:10:53 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: HP on Sparknotes.com
References: <b4oe5v+48le@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3E704B1D.000001.12199@monica>

 

 
David, realising that "Biggles Flies North" is literature
 
 Was there ever any doubt?

K, avid reader and collector of all things Biggles (not to mention all
things Gimlet and Worrals too!)

K



From spi00000000 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 13 13:21:24 2003
From: spi00000000 at yahoo.com (spi00000000)
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 13:21:24 -0000
Subject: HP on Sparknotes.com
In-Reply-To: <b4o2cm+4r47@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b4q0kk+5nft@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "ats_fhc3" <the.gremlin at v...> 
wrote:
> So I'm looking up stuff on Sparknotes.com when I come across 
> SparkNotes (for those of you who may not know, SparkNotes are an 
> online version of Cliffs Notes...kinda) for all four Harry Potter 
> books! Now, I've always that SparkNotes does literature, but can 
the 
> Harry Potter be categorized under the term 'literature'?
> 
> Has anyone actually, seriously, studied Harry Potter in a class? I 
> have always drawn a strict line between 'literature' and 'fiction', 
> and I honestly don't consider Harry Potter to be 'literature.' 
I took a class called "Children's Literature" inc ollege and I had to 
read SS-- it was my first introduction to Harry Potter.

Spi





From golden_faile at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 13 14:24:23 2003
From: golden_faile at yahoo.com (golden faile)
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 06:24:23 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Miracle in SLC!
In-Reply-To: <20030312231002.92240.qmail@web40304.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20030313142423.41954.qmail@web41112.mail.yahoo.com>


I'm so glad that this had a happy ending(well as happy as the situation allows, everything else can be dealt with)! I, like jusr about everyone else had given up hope. It's a shame that kids could be so cruel, that just goes to show how desensitized that we as a society are to tragedy. I won't rant. I'm glad for the Smarts and the people of your town that know the family and have watched the children grow.
 
Laila
 Lilac <lilac_bearry at yahoo.com> wrote:
The unbelievable has happened...Elizabeth Smart, abducted 9 months ago, was found ALIVE 15 minutes driving distance from her home!  I work at the elementary that Elizabeth attended when she was younger (her younger siblings, including the one who witnessed her abduction, currently attend school here), and we are all completely shocked and, of course, elated!  

Everyone, except the family, had lost hope that she was still alive.  Faded blue ribbons (Elizabeth's favorite color), some shredded and ripped from the weather, still clung to trees and telephone poles, dotting the Salt Lake Valley here and there, left there as a tribute to her memory more than the hope of her coming home alive.  Most of us took down our "Have You Seen Elizabeth?" pictures months ago.  The ones that were still hanging in windows were very badly faded, reminding us of the macabre image of any remains that might be found.  The horrible teasing the two youngest siblings had to endure from a few inconsiderate classmates..."You know your sister is dead, so why do you keep trying to find her alive?".  She'd cross my mind now and then, especially when I saw one of these younger toe-headed siblings in the halls.  We all hurt for the family.  We had all lost hope.  But we had moved on.  

But the family never lost hope.  Never.  They always had the feeling that she was alive somewhere, like in a basement or something.  We still are finding out all the details...whether she had been in the Salt Lake Valley all these months or not, etc.  But she is alive (though far from well, I'm sure) and with her family now.  With everything going on in the world today, I am very thankful that miracles still happen.  

~Lilac~





~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

"Professor, can you show me that blocking thing again?"

Lockhart cuffed Harry merrily on the shoulder.  "Just do what I did, Harry!"

"What, drop my wand?"

--Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
var lrec_target="_top";var lrec_URL = new Array();lrec_URL[1] = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.3054233.4378052.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1707544108:HM/A=1430287/R=0/id=flashurl/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405";var link="javascript:LRECopenWindow(1)";var lrec_flashfile = 'http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/intl_library_of_poetry/yahoo_300x250.swf?clickTAG='+link+'';var lrec_altURL = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.3054233.4378052.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1707544108:HM/A=1430287/R=1/id=altimgurl/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405";var lrec_altimg = "http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/intl_library_of_poetry/yahoo_300x250.gif";var lrec_width = 300;var lrec_height = 250;
________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________

Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the group's Admin Files!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/

Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying!

Is your message...
An announcement of merchandise, news etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements.
Movie-related? Send it to HPFGU-Movie.
Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups.
None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter.
Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com

Unsubscribing? Email HPFGU-OTChatter-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
____________________________________________________________ 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From cindysphinx at comcast.net  Thu Mar 13 15:03:26 2003
From: cindysphinx at comcast.net (Cindy C.)
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 15:03:26 -0000
Subject: HP on Sparknotes.com
In-Reply-To: <b4ochh+npk1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b4q6ju+8gha@eGroups.com>

Steve wrote:

> By definition and in the sense that you are using it, literature 
>must have artistic merit, so the daily newspaper is not literature, 
>Time magazine is not literature. 

I have to admit that I haven't spent a great deal of time studying 
literature, but this statement did catch my eye.  I wouldn't 
characterize a typical article in a newspaper or magazine as 
literature.  I suppose that it is certainly possible for a newspaper 
or magazine to print something that is literature (New Yorker does 
this, IMO), but by and large, I always figured literature was 
something with lasting value.  Not something you haul to the curb on 
Thursdays.  ;-)

As for whether HP will be a classic and rise to my definition of 
literature, I don't know about that.  I enjoy the books, but I don't 
consider them especially Important (for lack of a better word).  
They always struck me as fun and interesting and imaginative 
children's books, and there's no shame in that.  

Maybe the acid test for me is whether people will ever quote HP -- 
you know, the way people quote established literature to make a 
point in a serious paper or a speech.  I've never seen anyone open a 
speech with a quote from HP, but I guess it could happen. <g>

Cindy -- wondering if George Bush will start ending his speeches 
with "Constant Vigilance!" <beg>




From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Thu Mar 13 17:08:48 2003
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David)
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 17:08:48 -0000
Subject: Literature (was HP on Sparknotes.com)
In-Reply-To: <b4q6ju+8gha@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b4qdv0+i4j5@eGroups.com>

Cindy wrote:
>I suppose that it is certainly possible for a newspaper 
> or magazine to print something that is literature (New Yorker does 
> this, IMO), but by and large, I always figured literature was 
> something with lasting value.  Not something you haul to the curb 
on 
> Thursdays.  ;-)

Well, a few years ago I was an intermittent newspaper buyer, and I 
noticed that on on day in the week the review section of the 
Independent carried this spoof diary, under the byline "Bridget 
Jones' Diary".  I liked it and started to make sure that I bought 
the paper on that day (I can't remember if it was Thursday or 
what).  Then one day I saw that they had been collected together and 
published as a book, by Helen Fielding.  Whether that counts 
as 'literature' I leave to more discriminating minds than mine, but 
there it is.

> 
> Maybe the acid test for me is whether people will ever quote HP -- 
> you know, the way people quote established literature to make a 
> point in a serious paper or a speech.  

Again, I am waiting for the rise of the word Muggle to describe 
those not in the know or not able to follow a technical subject, 
e.g. for civil servants to describe the public as 'the Muggles'.  I 
haven't heard it yet, but it's so obvious I feel it's got to happen.

David




From fakeplastikcynic at hotmail.com  Thu Mar 13 18:17:28 2003
From: fakeplastikcynic at hotmail.com (martha)
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 18:17:28 -0000
Subject: HP on Sparknotes.com
In-Reply-To: <b4odi1+3pgu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b4qhvo+8kne@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "gulplum" <plumeski at y...> 
wrote:

There's no shame in adults reading 
> them, but I doubt that the books will ever be part of a university 
> curriculum. 

...And Martha sticks her head out of Lurkers' Corner, nervously 
raises her hand and says:

Er... at Sussex University (Brighton, England), where I'm currently 
studying, science students have to take arts courses (according to my 
friend who studies physics, in order to stop them becoming science 
geeks, and to make them other sorts of geeks instead). ;-) Anyway, 
I'm extremely annoyed that as an *arts* psychology student, I didn't 
get to take "Fantasy in Literature and Film":

http://www.sussex.ac.uk/Units/Arts-Science/subject/3a.html

According to Esther McCallum-Stewart, at least, Harry Potter *does* 
count as literature, enough so that it's on the reading list for a 
University of Sussex school course. (I just checked, they read the 
books, but didn't go near the movie.)

Just my two knuts,

Martha (adjusting dirty pillowcase and carrying on with the sweeping, 
and grumbling to herself about how her own school course was really 
boring and how some of her favourite books are on the "Fantasy..." 
reading list)




From lupinesque at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 13 18:19:17 2003
From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 18:19:17 -0000
Subject: Literature (was HP on Sparknotes.com)
In-Reply-To: <b4qdv0+i4j5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b4qi35+31ie@eGroups.com>

Cindy wrote:

> >I suppose that it is certainly possible for a newspaper 
> > or magazine to print something that is literature (New Yorker 
does 
> > this, IMO)

Sure--in the case of literary magazines, it's their raison d'etre.  
And plenty of the works that are now deemed not only fine fiction, 
nay literature <g>, but even classics, were first published in 
magazines (in the case of The New Yorker, e.g., J.D. Salinger and 
James Thurber both published there regularly).  It's the way most 
short fiction writers get their stuff read.  

Re: the "literature" section in bookstores, this always bugs me.  
It's a very odd use of the term--as if "fiction" is just fiction, 
but "literature" is GOOD fiction.  Or something.  Bookstores, of all 
places, should have a more sophisticated approach to literature.
 
David wrote:

> Again, I am waiting for the rise of the word Muggle to describe 
> those not in the know or not able to follow a technical subject, 
> e.g. for civil servants to describe the public as 'the Muggles'.  I 
> haven't heard it yet, but it's so obvious I feel it's got to happen.

Let's start a movement.  I bet if every one of us makes sure to use 
the term "Muggles" this way once a week, it will catch on all over 
the globe within a few months.

But isn't it a bit . . . you know . . . anti-Muggle?  I mean, it's 
not very nice to malign a population just for not being magical.  
Some of us are very nice and not stupid at all, even though when we 
wave our wands nothing happens.  <sniff!>

Amy
who *does* quote HP regularly in order to make a point, and only gets 
odd looks about half the time




From joym999 at aol.com  Thu Mar 13 19:53:19 2003
From: joym999 at aol.com (joywitch_m_curmudgeon)
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 19:53:19 -0000
Subject: HP on Sparknotes.com
In-Reply-To: <b4q6ju+8gha@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b4qnjf+lct4@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Cindy C." <cindysphinx at c...> 
wrote:

> Cindy -- wondering if George Bush will start ending his speeches 
> with "Constant Vigilance!" <beg>

He might, but he'd likely mispronounce it.

--Joywitch




From urbana at charter.net  Fri Mar 14 00:22:42 2003
From: urbana at charter.net (Anne)
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 00:22:42 -0000
Subject: HP on Sparknotes.com
In-Reply-To: <b4p0pm+7dkv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b4r7ci+r77u@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "jeziguh" <jeziguh at e...> 
wrote:
> Acire wrote:
> > See, here (States), we don't have any good, local, living 
authors. 
> > If we did, or if I had seen a book/essay/poem that was written 
> > recently, my opinion would be different. Maybe. We haven't had 
any 
> > good books written recently. I'm sure someone's else's opinion 
> > would be different, though. 
> 
> Would you consider Toni Morrison a "good, local, living" author?  
> Because she's alive, still writing, resides in the US, and general 
> consensus seems to be that she is a "good" author (and that Nobel 
> Prize in Literature also helps).  

Not a Nobel laureate in literature, but I'm very partial to the 
mystery/detective stories of Tony Hillerman. He has a wonderful way 
of writing that is very visual and he doesn't waste words. I do love 
Toni Morrison too.


Anne U





From rvotaw at i-55.com  Fri Mar 14 01:11:03 2003
From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw)
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 19:11:03 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] HP on Sparknotes.com
References: <b4o2cm+4r47@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <013501c2e9c6$95ce5900$589ccdd1@RVotaw>

Acire wrote:

> So I'm looking up stuff on Sparknotes.com when I come across 
> SparkNotes (for those of you who may not know, SparkNotes are an 
> online version of Cliffs Notes...kinda) for all four Harry Potter 
> books! Now, I've always that SparkNotes does literature, but can the 
> Harry Potter be categorized under the term 'literature'?

Well, Scholastic has published literary units using all four HP books.  I've never used them, of course, since I teach 1st grade.  I plan to buy them sometime, just for my "collection."  

However, that brings up a similar topic.  My local school board sent out a memo Monday.  It really didn't apply to anyone at my school, but you know how things are, they send it to everyone anytime a single parents complains.  Apparently at some high school in the parish, a teacher did away with the textbooks adopted by the school board and were using literature units (including Harry Potter) in their place.  A parent complained to the school board, therefore we all received a "warning" note not to replace our textbooks with novels like Harry Potter.  

Rudely tacked on to the bottom of the note was a comment regarding Scholastic's Book Fair Harry Potter promotions, discouraging teachers from participating.  Oh, get real.  I checked Scholastic's website to see what they were talking about, and it's got to be one of two things:

1) At book fairs this spring, students who preorder OotP will receive a free HP cap, a certificate, and an invitation to a Scholastic warehouse OotP party.  Well, that's between the parents and their child.  No parent I know is goingn to give their child $30 to preorder a book they don't want them reading.

2) There's a reading motivation they're referring to as a "warm up" for OotP, where students read 1,000 pages.  Not HP books, other books.  So how is this promoting HP, to encourage students to read 1,000 pages of other books?  Obviously, the school superintendent doesn't know what he's talking about.

Richelle


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From rvotaw at i-55.com  Fri Mar 14 02:56:04 2003
From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw)
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 20:56:04 -0600
Subject: Funny story
Message-ID: <002001c2e9d5$41db1d60$a5a0cdd1@RVotaw>

As most of you know, I teach first grade.  The students I have this year are rather, um, active.  Annoying even, especially to each other.  Needless to say, they don't get many "fun" afternoons (i.e. outside).  However, this is testing week, and the weather was positively gorgeous earlier in the week.  Monday afternoon after we'd finished all tests and other work, I took them outside with prizes for the students who'd worked really hard on the test (bottle pop candy) and even consolation prizes (ring pops) for the others, since no one had done anything too terrible during the test.  Anyway, we went outside, sat our chairs in the shade, eating our candy and enjoying the breeze, when one of my students popped out with "I wish Harry Potter was here."  I gave him something of an odd look, I suppose, since back when SS/PS was first showing on HBO we'd had a mini lesson on fact/fantasy since they all suddenly thought HP was real since they saw it on TV.  I brought in pictures of Daniel Radcliffe out of costume for them to distinguish between real and make believe.  The child realized what he said and to my utter astonishment, changed it to "I mean I wish Daniel Radcliffe was here."  I can't believe it.  I've actually taught them something. :)

Richelle


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From rvotaw at i-55.com  Fri Mar 14 03:14:11 2003
From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw)
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 21:14:11 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Question about a UK town
References: <b4mqe6+7pea@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <003f01c2e9d7$c981c280$a5a0cdd1@RVotaw>


Pip wrote:

> It sounds as if you're thinking of the small town of Hay-on-Wye in 
> Wales (just) which is quite well known for its book festival, and 
> the number of specialist second-hand bookshops.

That's it!  Thanks so much for the info, I knew someone was bound to know exactly what I was looking for!

Nina wrote:

> Goodness, you'll have to travel a bit to get to all these places.  Is 
> your trip entirely HP (movie) related?

<snip lots of very helpful information for which I am very grateful and has already been most useful!>

It's not exactly entirely HP related, but not far off. :)  I've wanted to go to Ireland for years.  My mother's preferance has always been England.  Since HP I've suddenly developed an incredible desire to visit England as well. :)  Since we usually travel together, this works out.  I usually pay a large sum of the trip, so she's got to keep me happy.  We may have another friend traveling with us, who's been to England 5 or 6 times and she likes visiting any castle, cathedral, abbey, etc.  So most of the HP filming locations will appeal to them as well (convenient for me!).  However, I do think that the moment I try to ram a cart into the barrier between platforms four and five at King's Cross, they'll probably abandon me. :)

Oh, and I'm afraid I'm forced to travel in June, as I can only travel when school's out, and it never lets out before the end of May.  Quite annoying.  Which is why I'm on such a strict schedule and must plan my trip out to the minute, thus beginning this far in advance in planning!

As far as renting a car, is it that difficult to drive on the left side of the road when one is used to the right?  (and opposite sides of the car as well, of course!)

Well, thanks again for the info! 

Richelle


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From urbana at charter.net  Fri Mar 14 05:04:57 2003
From: urbana at charter.net (Anne R Urbanski)
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 23:04:57 -0600
Subject: HP parody, sort of
Message-ID: <4.2.2.20030313225745.00b2f360@localhost>

Not sure how many of y'all are familiar with the Captain Underpants series 
of kids' books. My daughter loves them (they are severely silly) and 
recently asked me to buy her the most recent book in the series, The All 
New Captain Underpants Extra Crunchy Book O' Fun 2.
<http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbninquiry.asp?endeca=1&ean=97 
80439376082>
The Barnes & Noble review  of this book says: "The next comical installment 
of the Hairy Potty saga also continues with a 56-page laugh riot, in which 
the bride of the hairy porcelain villain is brought to life, wreaks havoc 
on the town, and gets stopped by the caped hero himself." It's called ... 
The Night of the Terror of the Revenge of the Curse of the Bride of Hairy 
Potty.

Anne U
(sounds like a really bad horror movie...maybe Rupert is available to star 
as Captain (th)Underpants?)







"Ah, music ... A magic beyond all we do here!"
- Albus Dumbledore, "Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone"

"Anyone could be the one to change your life" -- Monte Montgomery
http://www.montemontgomery.com








From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk  Fri Mar 14 09:26:39 2003
From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte)
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 09:26:39 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Question about a UK town
References: <003f01c2e9d7$c981c280$a5a0cdd1@RVotaw>
Message-ID: <3E71A04F.000001.15675@monica>

 

As far as renting a car, is it that difficult to drive on the left side of
the road when one is used to the right?  
(and opposite sides of the car as well, of course!)
 
Well, thanks again for the info! 
 
Richelle
 
 
Well I can't speak from personal experience (due to my complete inability to
pass the darn test) but my father (we're British btw) has driven us several
times in Europe and he says switching sides of the road is really no problem
at all. You get used to it within hours and after that it doesn't even
really register (after all everyone else is on the 'wrong' side of the road
too. However he hates roundabouts - because suddenly instead of going around
clockwise (UK) you're going round anti-clockwise (Europe) and it just doesn
t feel right.

But don't for goodness sake try driving in central London - apart from the
congestion charging and the total lack of parking, like any city it has
one-way streets, busy junctions etc and *everyone* else knows where they're
going and insist on doing so as fast as possible (plus the delivery drivers
on their bikes are insane). It scares me and I'm only ever a passenger!

K



From nina.baker at uk.faulding.com  Fri Mar 14 10:14:34 2003
From: nina.baker at uk.faulding.com (nb100uk)
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 10:14:34 -0000
Subject: Question about a UK town
In-Reply-To: <3E71A04F.000001.15675@monica>
Message-ID: <b4sa2a+q76e@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Kathryn Cawte" <kcawte at b...> 
wrote:
>  
> 
> As far as renting a car, is it that difficult to drive on the left 
side of
> the road when one is used to the right?  
> (and opposite sides of the car as well, of course!)
>  
> Well, thanks again for the info! 
>  
I've got to agree with Kathryn - London driving is a complete 
nightmare - too many maniac drivers and not enough parking.  The last 
time I was deluded enough to drive into London, I spent 45 minutes 
driving round Notting Hill looking for a space that wouldn't get me 
clamped by the vicious traffic wardens within 10 minutes.

Last year I had a friend visit from America; he used the trains and 
tube to get in and around London - these are, broadly 
speaking, 'fairly' reliable (we're not talking Swiss precision 
timetables here though) and safe.  Once he had done all the sights in 
London, he got the tube (subway) to Heathrow airport and picked up a 
hire car there.  Getting out of Heathrow to other parts of the 
country is pretty simple as the roads are well signposted for 
jetlagged tourists!

As far as right/left hand driving, I've driven in Europe and North 
America without any problems.  You have to get used to the gear stick 
being on the other side (takes very little time), but really, as long 
as you passed your driving test and have some hand-eye coordination, 
it's not a problem.  Just keep thinking - keep to left, keep to left!

Nina




From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk  Fri Mar 14 10:36:41 2003
From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte)
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 10:36:41 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Question about a UK town
References: <b4sa2a+q76e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3E71B0B9.000001.15675@monica>

 

I've got to agree with Kathryn - London driving is a complete 
nightmare - too many maniac drivers and not enough parking.  The last 
time I was deluded enough to drive into London, I spent 45 minutes 
driving round Notting Hill looking for a space that wouldn't get me 
clamped by the vicious traffic wardens within 10 minutes.
 
Last year I had a friend visit from America; he used the trains and 
tube to get in and around London - these are, broadly 
speaking, 'fairly' reliable (we're not talking Swiss precision 
timetables here though) and safe.  Once he had done all the sights in 
London, he got the tube (subway) to Heathrow airport and picked up a 
hire car there.  Getting out of Heathrow to other parts of the 
country is pretty simple as the roads are well signposted for 
jetlagged tourists!
 Nina
 
 As long as you're not travelling in the rush hour the tube is fantastic.
Really - I travel by it a lot and yes occasionally the trains terminate
earlier than they should *glares at the Circle Line* but there's always
another train along shortly, it goes everywhere you would want to go in
London and it's easy to navigate provided you invest in a map. Also it's not
overly expensive and despite what I've heard from other people I've always
found the staff to be helpful and knowledgeable.

For example (and I'm not sure if this'll put you off, as an American, but as
a Brit it I'm used to it) the other day there was a security alert at King's
Cross (suspicious package, as if any one who travels in London needs to be
told that) and all the lines going through there closed. So an entire train
full of us were stopped at another station and trying to work out new routes
to get to our destination - the *one* guard on the platform not only
remained calm and polite while having a whole crowd of people yelling
destinations at him but off the top of his head came up with new routes for
all of us pretty much instantly. So yes while there may be problems you'll
always get to your destination and it's a lot less stressful than driving.

Heathrow is a great place to travel from I agree - and it's right next to
Windsor which you *must* visit. especially if your friend likes castles - it
s without equal and you absolutely must see it. Also you can then go on a
nice cruise along the Thames to relax - or visit Eton which is full of
antiques shops and cafes. Umm, I don't work for the Windsor Tourist Board
(despite appearances) but I do live here and love it. Actually the only
thing I dislike about Windsor is well tourists actually so I should probably
stop encouraging people to visit. Putting up with crowds of every
nationality, most of whom seem to view those of us who live here as some
kind of interactive visitor display can be annoying but I have a castle at
the end of my road - how many people can say that? :)

K



From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Fri Mar 14 10:40:02 2003
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David)
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 10:40:02 -0000
Subject: London driving
In-Reply-To: <b4sa2a+q76e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b4sbi2+6pb6@eGroups.com>

Nina wrote:

> I've got to agree with Kathryn - London driving is a complete 
> nightmare - too many maniac drivers and not enough parking.  

I agree about the parking (though IMO it's for the greater good that 
there isn't much parking), but I'm not convinced about the driving.

Sure, people are much politer in the countryside but there are many 
more indecisive drivers.  At least in London you know that if it's 
selfish and they can do it, they will: I value predictability in 
other road users even if it sometimes slows me down.  Out here you 
get the problem of the ditherer and the over-polite - e.g. the 
person who stops to wave pedestrians across, who are then in danger 
of being mown down by the other car that's decided to overtake.

David




From nina.baker at uk.faulding.com  Fri Mar 14 11:16:13 2003
From: nina.baker at uk.faulding.com (nb100uk)
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 11:16:13 -0000
Subject: Question about a UK town
In-Reply-To: <3E71B0B9.000001.15675@monica>
Message-ID: <b4sdlt+d9bi@eGroups.com>

Putting up with crowds of every
> nationality, most of whom seem to view those of us who live here as 
some kind of interactive visitor display can be annoying but I have a 
castle at the end of my road - how many people can say that? :)
> 
> K

Me!! g :)  I can see Warwick Castle from our bedroom window.  This is 
another stunning castle, almost completely intact.  Besides the view, 
I also get to listen to free concerts (very loud) in my garden when 
people like Elton John, The Beach Boys and Rod Steward perform their 
open air gigs in the castle grounds just beyond the houses every 
summer!  

Agree about the tourists though, one of the hazards of living in a 
beautiful town is that other people want to visit (how 
inconvenient!)  When I'm shopping in the town, I seem to stand out as 
a 'local', so I get targeted by sweet Japanese people (who seem to be 
trained in spotting us), and asked all sorts of strange things.  I 
was once asked where one could buy stag heads!  Apparently, they'd 
seen the mounted antlers in the Great Hall of the castle and decided 
that it was a look that would translate well to a Tokyo apartment!

N




From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk  Fri Mar 14 12:05:02 2003
From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte)
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 12:05:02 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Question about a UK town
References: <b4sdlt+d9bi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3E71C56E.000001.15675@monica>

 
 
Me!! g :)  I can see Warwick Castle from our bedroom window.  This is 
another stunning castle, almost completely intact.  Besides the view, 
I also get to listen to free concerts (very loud) in my garden when 
people like Elton John, The Beach Boys and Rod Steward perform their 
open air gigs in the castle grounds just beyond the houses every 
summer!  
 

Cool - I used to live just down the road from Knebworth and could say the
same about their concerts. Warwick is another fantastic castle i agree -
although I have very bad memories of my visit there. I have an extreme fear
of heights and no ability to say no when people want me to do things like
say - walk along the walls of a castle. I was fine with the actual ramparts
but the towers at Warwick have spiral stairs with no landings - just a gap
in the wall through which you have to step to gt anywhere and I ended up
almost throwing up from fear. 

Why is it as soon as yoiu admit to a fear of heights so called friends
insist on getting you to climb things like that? I seem to be collecting a
long list of historical buildings in which I've had panic attacks thanks to
me agreeing to climb towers that I shouldn't have.

I've forgotten by now who started this conversation - but whoever you are,
you should try and find when they're doing medieval events at one of these
castles. Most have jousting/falconry shows throughout the summer. You'll
probably even get to see some owls at the falconry display (see everything
*can* be linked back to Harry Potter if you try hard enough <g>)

K



From plumeski at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 14 19:12:54 2003
From: plumeski at yahoo.com (gulplum)
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 19:12:54 -0000
Subject: Comic Relief
Message-ID: <b4t9jm+e2v2@eGroups.com>

It's on now. Don't expect UK-based folk to say anything for a 
while... :-)

Report shortly..

-- 
Gulplum AKA Richard, having difficulty typing because of laughter 
convulsions




From drednort at alphalink.com.au  Fri Mar 14 21:55:55 2003
From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately)
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 08:55:55 +1100
Subject: Just a reminisce
In-Reply-To: <20030123231123.45374.qmail@web14506.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <b0jisd+f3e8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3E72EA9B.14718.462A66D@localhost>

I've been reading a couple of books that got me thinking recently.

*Part* of the reason why Harry Potter appealed to me when I first read it, was because I 
saw parallels with my own childhood. When I was 12, I was sent to the local Catholic 
high school - and I went through *absolute* hell. It was a terrible place. I got beaten up 
daily - I did have my head flushed down toilets more than once, I also got beaten 
unconscious on one occasion. I was a freak there - I couldn't fit in, and I didn't know 
why.

Anyway - end result was eventually that school insisted my parents take me to see a 
psychologist on the grounds that anyone who was having all this happen to them, 
obviously had some sort of mental problem - he gave me a bunch of tests, and they 
gave me a name as to why I was different - I was 'profoundly gifted' - hearing that was 
such a relief when I'd spent nine months thinking there was something seriously wrong. 
He also told my parents what he felt they needed to do for me educationally. And they 
set about doing it.

Three months later - and it all seemed so incredibly rushed - I was in a new school. This 
was the prep school for one of Australia's most prestigious private schools (I went on to 
the senior school the following year) and I was in absolute *heaven*. I was finally 
somewhere where I felt I fitted in, somewhere where I was much more free to be who I 
wanted to be.

It's not a perfect match to Harry's Hogwarts experiences - but it was close enough that 
what he experienced at the start of Philosopher's Stone really did appeal to me.

I had a year of near bliss at the prep school. When I moved onto the senior school, 
things were still good - but not as good - but still brilliant in comparison to my year of 
hell.

But again, reading Harry Potter, I was always seeing little parallels. And one I saw was 
Snape.

I had two teachers - one at the prep school, one at the senior school, who when I 
encountered Snape - well, basically, I thought of them. I spent my time at school *hating* 
them, and convinced that they *hated* me. One in particular, was a very nasty man, who 
did have the Snapish habit of singling out some students - including me - for special 
criticism. I liked most of my teachers - but these two, I really hated.

Anyway - over the past few days, I managed to pick up copies of two books - a history of 
the prep school written about five years ago, and of the senior school, written about a 
decade ago. And leafing through them, I found comments about many of my old 
teachers. Including both of these ones.

And reading those comments, I suddenly found myself understanding where they were 
coming from. Both were dedicated, and extremely skilled teachers, who seem to have 
genuinely cared for the boys they taught. I'm not saying I agree with their methods - 
because for the most part, I don't - but what I've read has really changed my opinion of 
them. I can see that the reason they acted the way they did was because (rightly or 
wrongly - IMHO, wrongly - I got some benefit from their methods, but I don't think it 
balanced out the detriments) they believed it was in the best interests of their students.

They knew they'd be hated. They knew that when old boys came back to the school in 
years to come, they wouldn't be seeking these teachers out to thank them, as many of 
us have done with so many others.

I'm looking at men who cared deeply about kids and who willingly accepted that many of 
their pupils would come to hate them, and that very, very few would ever like them. They 
willingly accepted that, as the price they had to pay to be what they felt were good 
teachers.

Whether I agree with their methods or not, I find myself having to admire them for being 
willing to accept that type of price because they believed it was best for their students. 
And reading about them now - it looks like it was a heavy price.

And, naturally, as one who sees parallels with Harry Potter, I find myself looking at 
Snape, and wondering...

 Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought
Shaun Hately |webpage: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html
(ISTJ)       |email: drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200

                       "Almighty Ruler of the all;
                 Whose power extends to great and small;
                 Who guides the stars with steadfast law;
                   Whose least creation fills with awe;
                     Oh grant thy mercy and thy grace;
                     To those who venture into space."




From plumeski at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 14 22:11:48 2003
From: plumeski at yahoo.com (gulplum)
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 22:11:48 -0000
Subject: Stephen Fry
Message-ID: <b4tk34+1099f@eGroups.com>

Oh dear...

In a quiz between famous comedians for Comic Relief night, Stephen 
Fry (who is exceptionally well educated, hence his presence on the 
team) has just been derided by both his team-mates and the audience 
for not knowing the answer to the question: 

"How many players on a Quidditch team?"

After a lot of umm-ing and ahh-ing, he said "five".

Someone hasn't been paying attention to what he's been reading...

:-)

-- 
GulPlum AKA Richard, who has interrupted writing a review-ette of 
Harry Potter and The Secret Chamber Port of Azerbaijan in another 
window, but wanted to post this before forgetting





From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk  Fri Mar 14 23:14:17 2003
From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak)
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 23:14:17 -0000
Subject: Stephen Fry
In-Reply-To: <b4tk34+1099f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b4tno9+hcf9@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "gulplum" <plumeski at y...> 
wrote:
> Oh dear...
> 
> In a quiz between famous comedians for Comic Relief night, Stephen 
> Fry (who is exceptionally well educated, hence his presence on the 
> team) has just been derided by both his team-mates and the  
> audience for not knowing the answer to the question: 
> 
> "How many players on a Quidditch team?"
> 
> After a lot of umm-ing and ahh-ing, he said "five".
> 
> Someone hasn't been paying attention to what he's been reading...
> 
> :-)
> 

Fry did at least joke 'you don't think I actually listen to myself, 
do you?' [grin].

The *best* for never understanding a word he was reading (while 
still doing a superb interpretation) was Peter Jones as the Voice of 
The Book in Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy.

Very, very occasionally you can hear just a hint of the total 
bewilderment he was feeling ...

Pip




From Ali at zymurgy.org  Fri Mar 14 23:16:26 2003
From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali)
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 23:16:26 -0000
Subject: Comic Relief
In-Reply-To: <b4t9jm+e2v2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b4tnsa+oahu@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "gulplum" <plumeski at y...> 
wrote:
>>> It's on now. Don't expect UK-based folk to say anything for a 
 while... :-)
 
 Report shortly..>>>

This isn't a full reply. But just to say it was excellent. Very cruel 
and very funny.

Jeremy Irons was an exceptional Snape. Complaining about Dumbledore 
and how he strung his words out to get more air play. Harry's 
Invisibility cloak nolonger covered the kids ankles because they'd 
all grown up so much. None of the kids could act, and when Harry sat 
in the Great Hall several kids fell off the end of the bench. Harry 
also had very large "jugs".

It was horrible, but very, very good. It's just a shame my video is 
broken so I can't keep watching it.

For those of you who disliked Jack Dee for inflicting embarassment 
upon Daniel Radcliffe at the awards ceremony; feel pleased to know he 
is currently standing at the top of a pole, looking very cold and 
grumpy.

Comic Relief is my favourite charity, and it's been a pleasure today 
to watch all the stupid things around me. All the kids at my 
daughter's school were today dressed in red, complete with stupid 
noses and mad hair. Over the years, the fashion in red noses has 
changed considerably - this year they were too tight for my nose, but 
the humour lives on. I recommend it. 

Ali

Who still can't belief that Stephen Fry had no idea how many people 
are in a Quidditch team.
 





From plumeski at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 15 00:11:00 2003
From: plumeski at yahoo.com (gulplum)
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 00:11:00 -0000
Subject: Comic Relief 
In-Reply-To: <b4t9jm+e2v2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b4tr2k+bn76@eGroups.com>

For the last few weeks, since everyone started talking about "Harry 
Potter and The Secret Chamber Port of Azerbaijan", my expectations 
have been pretty low. 

However, having just watched Part Two, I'm still convulsing just 
thinking about it. My video capture card isn't working right now so I 
can't do it, but I'm sure it'll get posted online *somewhere* very 
soon. In the meantime, a few comments.

Most of the jokes will go *straight* over the heads of non-UK 
viewers; a knowledge of TV characters and the actors who play them is 
required to "get" several of the jokes.

Three "people" non-Brits might not know about, to understand the 
casting:

Ronnie Corbett (e.g. http://www.phill.co.uk/people/c/corbett.html) - 
something that article doesn't make clear is that Ronnie is probably 
the UK's most famous "little person" (I don't know tall he is, but 
it's no more than 5ft); his specs are part of his public persona, 
hence he's always wearing specs in this.

Alex Ferns (e.g. 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/eastenders/characters/trevor_m_biog.shtml) - 
plays a major character in BBC soap EastEnders (the link is to his 
character's biography). The character is one of the nastiest people 
on British TV (his wife-beating was a major EastEnders storyline 
which made it even to my consciousness, and I don't watch it!).

Basil Brush (e.g. 
http://www.flicks.com/~martin/basil_brush/basil.htm) - I really have 
nothing to add to that, other than to mention that "he" is a glove 
puppet who'd already been around for years when I was a kid. 

(two hours later...) :-)

Anyway, a few of the highlights:

JKR (the real one) doing an intro for the skit. "Comic Relief is 
great. This is not. Do Not Watch This."

Jennifer Saunders doing Ron (both in the "movie" and the on-set 
interviews etc) solely with facial expressions, screams and grunts. 
Not a single word. Although it grew a bit tiring towards thew end 
(it's difficult to answer anything other than "yes" or "no" questions 
with gurning)

Dawn French and her boob jokes. OK, most of them were extremely 
juvenile, and again the humour drew a bit thin by the end, but it was 
funny most of the time. Sitting down at the Great Hall table and 
displacing four pupils off the end of the bench when pushing them 
aside to make space for hereself.

The "the invisibity cloak is too small" gag and the three pairs of 
legs (with obvious invisible bodies above them) going down the 
corridor.

"It's a junk Howler" (I won't spoil that one; it's got to be seen to 
be believed!)

"I thought it's talking Parcelforce" (required knowledge: Parcel 
Force is a courrier company)

I thought Dawn French was a bit unkind to Dan in the mock interviews, 
especially "his" inability to find the right words for what he wanted 
to say. "It was a challenging film.... in a ..... challenging sort of 
way".

Ronnie Corbett as Hagrid. Half of my coffee ended up on the screen 
when I realised what was going on. "They've outgrown me. *I* am 
supposed to be the giant!"

Jeremy Irons as Snape was simply priceless. Being very very luvvy, 
hamming it up, with a running commentary (e.g. "the hair's better his 
time", and the ultimate "God, I'm GORGEOUS"), complaining about not 
having been in LOTR. 

Great conversation with McGonagall: "I was only meant to be here for 
a day. It's been three weeks now." "why do we do this?" "For the 
money." "Why do they hire great actors like us when we've only got 
one line?", etc, etc.

"Am I Slytherin?" "No, I can understand every word you say"

Nigel Planer as Dumbledore,  d r a g g i n g   o u t   h i s   w o r 
d s  and leaving            huge           pauses            
between                them          to get maximum screen time, and 
all the other actors complaining about it. "On Lord of the Rings, we 
had chocolate Hob Nobs" (do non-Brits know what Hob Nobs are?)

Basil Brush as Dobby, confusing him with Yoda just a little bit. And 
the Gollum impersonation. 

The Hogwarts Express going into a tunnel and coming out as Thomas The 
Tank Engine: I was rolling on the floor for that one.

Quidditch alternating between a *very* cheap basic computer game 
(cutout spectators, pixellation all over the place, etc) and models 
hanging off strings. Crude but brilliant. Quidditch highlight: the 
appearance of Alex Ferns with obviously fake blond hair as Malfoy. 
Completely lost on anyone to whom EastEnders means nothing...


Oh, and for those who didn't like Jack Dee's words about Dan during 
the Evening Standard film awards, you can feel better because he's 
been standing on a 55 foot pole outside the BBC studios for the last 
6 hours and is currently looking very, very, very, pissed off and 
cold.

-- 
GulPlum AKA Richard, who having typed all of that thinks it's only 
fair to encourage people to go to 
https://donate.comicrelief.com/rednoseday/donate/
and give Comic Relief some money (all curriencies accepted...)




From rvotaw at i-55.com  Sat Mar 15 00:41:42 2003
From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw)
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 18:41:42 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Comic Relief
References: <b4tr2k+bn76@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <001201c2ea8b$a653d1e0$25a2cdd1@RVotaw>

GulPlum wrote:

> For the last few weeks, since everyone started talking about "Harry 
> Potter and The Secret Chamber Port of Azerbaijan", my expectations 
> have been pretty low. 

Okay, having read GulPlum's review, I really must see this.  Where can I get a video?  Will they sell it?  Think of the money they could raise from Americans like me who will buy anything related to HP. (I'm still using dial up here, so if it's posted on internet that won't be much help.)

> I thought Dawn French was a bit unkind to Dan in the mock interviews, 
> especially "his" inability to find the right words for what he wanted 
> to say. "It was a challenging film.... in a ..... challenging sort of 
> way".

Perhaps the next candidate for standing on a pole?  One can always hope. :)  Still, Dan has a remarkable ability to laugh at himself, so I doubt he'll be insulted.

> Jeremy Irons as Snape was simply priceless. Being very very luvvy, 
> hamming it up, with a running commentary (e.g. "the hair's better his 
> time", and the ultimate "God, I'm GORGEOUS"), complaining about not 
> having been in LOTR. 

I love Jeremy Irons, I really *must* see this.

> Oh, and for those who didn't like Jack Dee's words about Dan during 
> the Evening Standard film awards, you can feel better because he's 
> been standing on a 55 foot pole outside the BBC studios for the last 
> 6 hours and is currently looking very, very, very, pissed off and 
> cold.

You have no idea how happy that thought makes me. :)

Richelle


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From morrigan at byz.org  Sat Mar 15 00:54:04 2003
From: morrigan at byz.org (Vicki)
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 16:54:04 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Comic Relief
In-Reply-To: <b4tnsa+oahu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.44.0303141652190.8809-100000@blood.byz.org>

Quick note - please don't forget to check out NasAlley.org - the HP
fandom's project to donate to Comic Relief!

Vicki, whose wonderful British boyfriend was nice to enough to remember to
tape the HP parts so she can see them :)




From susannahlm at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 15 03:48:53 2003
From: susannahlm at yahoo.com (derannimer)
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 03:48:53 -0000
Subject: Peter Jones
Message-ID: <b4u7r5+k8mi@eGroups.com>

Pip wrote: 

>The *best* for never understanding a word he was reading (while 
>still doing a superb interpretation) was Peter Jones as the Voice of 
>The Book in Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy.

First of all, I just have to say, I *ADORE* those tapes. I cannot 
express strongly *enough* how much I adore them. 

But second, what's this about Peter Jones never understanding a word 
he read? Er. . . maybe if I were a Brit I'd understand this 
reference. But I'm not, and I don't. Am curious. 


--------

"I bought some peanuts."-- Ford Prefect

--------

Zaphod: Ford, hi, how are you? Glad you could drop in.

Ford: *Zaphod,* great to see you, you're looking well! The extra arm 
suits you! Nice ship you've stolen.

--------

Radio Announcer: Yes, it looks like the Big Z is now finally Big D-E-
A-D.

--------

Gag Halfront: Vell, look: Zaphod's just zis guy, you know?

--------

"I *hate* wet paper bags."--Marvin, the Paranoid Android

--------

"Go Stick Your Head in a Pig"--Motto of the Sirius Cybernetics 
Corporation

--------

"Not as such. Not *die* as such?"--Trillian

--------

The Book: 

This is the story of the Hitch-Hikers Guide to the Galaxy, perhaps 
the most remarkable, certainly the most succesful book, ever to come 
out of the great publishing corporations of Ursa Minor. More popular 
than the _Celestial Home Care Omnibus_, better selling than _Fifty-
three More Things To Do in Zero Gravity_, and more controversial than 
Oolon Colluphid's trilogy of philosophical blockbusters: _Where God 
Went Wrong_, _Some More of God's Greatest Mistakes_, and _Who Is This 
God Person Anyway?_ 

And in many of the more relaxed civilizations on the outer eastern 
rim of the galaxy, the Hitch-Hikers Guide has already supplanted the 
great _Encyclopedia Galactica_ as the standard repository of all 
knowledge and wisdom; for although it has many omissions, contains 
much that is apocryphal--or at least wildly inaccurate--it scores 
over the older, more pedestrian work in two important ways. 

First, it is slightly cheaper; and second, it has the words "Don't 
Panic" inscribed in large, friendly letters on the cover.

To tell the story of the Book, it's best to tell the story of some of 
the minds behind it. . . . 

--------



Derannimer (who would just like you all to know that she just wrote 
the above from memory. And who is not at all sure that she 
spelled "Oolon Colluphid properly.)





From urbana at charter.net  Sat Mar 15 04:07:48 2003
From: urbana at charter.net (Anne)
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 04:07:48 -0000
Subject: Hitchhiker's Guide . . .
In-Reply-To: <b4u7r5+k8mi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b4u8uk+7oha@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "derannimer" 
<susannahlm at y...> wrote:

> 
> Zaphod: Ford, hi, how are you? Glad you could drop in.
> 
> Ford: *Zaphod,* great to see you, you're looking well! The extra 
arm 
> suits you! Nice ship you've stolen.
> 


LOL ... I suppose Zaphod realized he needed an extra arm to balance 
off his extra *head*?? :-)

Anne U
(who thinks Alice Cooper might make a good Zaphod Beeblebrox if there 
was ever a Yank remake of the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy)





From anise_leinen at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 15 04:14:06 2003
From: anise_leinen at yahoo.com (anise_leinen)
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 04:14:06 -0000
Subject: A Very Important Request for the List. 
Message-ID: <b4u9af+3ehm@eGroups.com>

Hi all! (waves, emerges from lurkerdom.)

I've been on this list for awhile, and I'm going to be a presenter at 
Nimbus 2003(you can look me up on the official list and everything!) 
The topic of my seminar will be:  "Ophelia's Quill Pen: How Reading 
and Writing Fanfiction Empowers Women and Girls," and I'm writing the 
paper that accompanies the actual presentation. Well, here's where 
you-- yes,YOU!-- can make an invaluable contribution. A big part of 
my research consists of trying to understand what reading and writing 
fanfiction, and the entire culture of fandom, has meant and continues 
to mean to those who participate in it. So I have a questionnaire, 
and I want to get as many responses to it as possible for the paper. 
(Here's where the contribution part comes in...) I am looking  for as 
many volunteers as possible to take the questionnaire, hoping to get 
the largest and most diverse sample size I can.  
Email me at: anise_leinen at yahoo.com, and I'll send you a copy. And 
yes, you will be thanked by name in the final paper (unless for some 
reason you don't want to be!) 

Infinite thanks in advance, 
Cathy Danielson aka Anise




From jenw118 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 15 04:19:48 2003
From: jenw118 at yahoo.com (Jennifer R. Wilson)
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 20:19:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Survey
In-Reply-To: <b4u9af+3ehm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20030315041948.17448.qmail@web14008.mail.yahoo.com>


Hi!

I just saw your post to HPFGU-OTChatter, and I'd love to help you by taking the survey.

Please send :)

Jennifer



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From thalia at aokp.org  Sat Mar 15 04:51:01 2003
From: thalia at aokp.org (chanteuse thalia chaunacy)
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 20:51:01 -0800
Subject: slang and HP
Message-ID: <WorldClient-F200303142051.AA51010454@aokp.org>

no, this isn't about marijuana.

it's for the brits.

we all know GoF is the least US-ized of the books. hence, i (a USer) read 
it and have to passover a frustrating amount of words as incomprehensible.

ah, slang.

my question: is this all 'normal' slang? do you, as people of the UK, 
understand every single word? or does JKR get creative, you know, make up 
her own uses for words? or does she use 'outdated' words? (does anybody 
*really* say 'blimey' anymore? or has it gone the way of 'rad' in the US?)

this REALLY fascinates me. it's one of the reasons i'm so entranced with 
the books, and probably why i'm equally entranced by the movies. i'm an 
uber-sucker for an accent.

so, uh, yeah. anybody? <echo>

thalia 'shoulda beena linguist' chaunacy

'i wont forget when peter pan
came to my house took my hand
i said i was a boy
i'm glad he didnt check'
-dar




From plumeski at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 15 11:00:31 2003
From: plumeski at yahoo.com (gulplum)
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 11:00:31 -0000
Subject: slang and HP
In-Reply-To: <WorldClient-F200303142051.AA51010454@aokp.org>
Message-ID: <b4v14f+94v1@eGroups.com>

chanteuse wrote:

> we all know GoF is the least US-ized of the books. hence, i (a 
> USer) read it and have to passover a frustrating amount of words as 
> incomprehensible.
> 
> ah, slang.
> 
> my question: is this all 'normal' slang? do you, as people of the 
> UK, understand every single word? or does JKR get creative, you 
> know, make up her own uses for words? or does she use 'outdated' 
> words? (does anybody *really* say 'blimey' anymore? or has it gone 
> the way of 'rad' in the US?)

Part of the whole charm of the books is that we have very typical 
generic end of the 20th century kids in a medieval setting, and both 
are very natural. If any of the language were anachronistic, I'm sure 
that JKR's fan mail would swiftly make it clear to her.

Of course, nothing changes faster than teenage jargon, and apart from 
the fact that JKR is too old to be able to keep up with it (as am I), 
she hasn't used any up-to-the-minute stuff to date the langauge of 
the books exactly. 

So the kids in the books don't talk *entirely* like typical 90s 
British kids, but the language is a sub-set of the way they do speak. 
As far as I'm aware, none of the language is outdated, and "blimey" 
is in continuous use. It's probably more typical for JKR's (my) 
generation (I certainly use it on a daily basis), but it doesn't 
sound in the slightest bit strange coming out of a (British) 
teenager's mouth. 

There are variations between the kids as well. For instance, Dean and 
Colin frequently use "cool", which none of the kids brought up in 
wizarding families do, except for Fred and George regarding Moody.

It's equally interesting that Harry uses no teenage jargon - this is 
a further underlining of his lack of contact with his peers in the 
Muggle world. 

It grates on me that Kloves puts "wicked" and "cool" into Ron's mouth 
so frequently in the movies, because they're not words I would expect 
him to use, having been brought up in a wizarding family without much 
(any?) Muggle contact. Ron certainly doesn't talk that way in the 
books. Just one more reason I thnk we need a campaign to persuade the 
production team to find another scriptwriter (preferably younger and 
British, or at least with an ear for British cadences of speech).

-- 
GulPlum AKA Richard, who thinks this topic actually belongs on the 
main list as it's very much part of analysing the books. If 
pronunciation threads are "on topic", then jargon threads are 
probably even more so.





From plumeski at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 15 12:17:14 2003
From: plumeski at yahoo.com (gulplum)
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 12:17:14 -0000
Subject: Tourists (Question about a UK town)
In-Reply-To: <3E71B0B9.000001.15675@monica>
Message-ID: <b4v5ka+4bj9@eGroups.com>

All this talk of living in towns which are tourist attractions makes 
me want to tell my favourite "tourist" anecdote (which is 100% 
entirely true). 

As some around here might know, I lived in Paris for a chunk of my 
life. Don't ask me why, but I seemed to be a magnet for English-
speaking tourists asking directions (Which I was always perfectly 
happy to provide, BTW). If a tourist had a crowd of pedestrians to 
choose from, they'd invariably choose *me*. Is it possible to look 
like an English speaker?

Anyway, I was walking up the Champs Elysees one day, and a couple of 
Americans in their early twenties asked me for directions to Madame 
Tussaud's. 

I replied (ever helpful, and displaying my smartarse 
credentials), "Go to that Metro station. Take the Metro to Charles De 
Gaulle Airport, then a plane to London Heathrow, then the Picadilly 
line Tube to Green Park. Change to a Jubilee Line train and get off 
at Baker Street. It's next door to the station, but there are lots of 
exits and if you leave by the wrong one, there are directions." 

They looked at me, a bit baffled. "Eh?"

"It's in London, in England."

"But she's French!"

"Actually, she was Swiss. But her museum is in London. If you want 
the Paris waxworks museum, the Musee Grevin ( 
http://www.grevin.com/english/index.htm), go down that road [point] 
and turn right at the end, but Madame Tussaud's is in London. It's 
also much better, and the Grevin exhibits are mainly French people 
you probably wouldn't recognise."

They walked away, still not believing me, and I saw them stop someone 
else, who clearly didn't have a clue what they were asking about...
(Madame Tussauds means as much to French people as the Musee Grevin 
does to the British)

OK, I *am* a smartarse, and that was a typical example of "more 
information than required" but I do expect tourists to know what 
*country* they're in... :-)





From plumeski at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 15 12:38:19 2003
From: plumeski at yahoo.com (gulplum)
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 12:38:19 -0000
Subject: Tourists (Question about a UK town)
In-Reply-To: <b4v5ka+4bj9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b4v6rr+48r6@eGroups.com>

<snip my tourist anecdote>

As the eagle-eyed (heh heh) will have spotted, in my haste to be a 
smartarse to those tourists, I neglected one important piece of 
direction. There is no direct Metro train from the Champs Elysees to 
the airport. You need to change at Chatelet. 

:-)

The above was a deliberate separate (smartarse) post. When I tell the 
story "live", I always leave that as "dessert". :-)






From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk  Sat Mar 15 12:40:10 2003
From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak)
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 12:40:10 -0000
Subject: Peter Jones
In-Reply-To: <b4u7r5+k8mi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b4v6va+ca07@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "derannimer" 
<susannahlm at y...> wrote:
> Pip wrote: 
> 
> >The *best* for never understanding a word he was reading (while 
> >still doing a superb interpretation) was Peter Jones as the Voice 
> >of The Book in Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy.

> Derannimer:
> First of all, I just have to say, I *ADORE* those tapes. I cannot 
> express strongly *enough* how much I adore them. 
> 
> But second, what's this about Peter Jones never understanding a 
> word he read? Er. . . maybe if I were a Brit I'd understand this 
> reference. But I'm not, and I don't. Am curious. 

> Derannimer 

OK. The story is that when Douglas Adams wrote the original scripts 
for Hitch Hikers Guide, he described the Voice of the Book as having 
a 'Peter Jonesey sort of voice'.

[Peter Jones was a well known actor (in Britain) who did a *lot* of 
comedy, radio and voice over narratives]

The producer for the series, when he read this, did what all good 
producers do, and promptly checked whether Peter Jones was 
available. The exact conversation is unknown, but the words 'part 
written with you in mind' were probably used ;-)

So Peter Jones agreed to do the job. The problem was that while 
narration was no problem and comedy was no problem, Peter Jones was 
not a science fiction fan. In fact, Peter didn't read SF at *all*. 
He had, at this point, never even appeared in an episode of 'Dr 
Who'. Hitch Hikers Guide was his very first introduction to 
performing science fiction, and it wasn't even in the 'monster 
appears, you scream, die horribly, retire to the catering van for a 
cup of tea' genre that we all know and love so much [grin].

To add to the confusion, Douglas Adams hadn't quite finished writing 
the series, and script changes were happening right up to recording 
time.

So there he was, adrift in a genre he didn't know, playing not even 
someone reading a book, but an actual book that could talk (this was 
the late 70's, remember. Such things did not exist), with no idea 
where the script was actually going, and no idea what it was talking 
about.

And he survived. He'd survived Spike Milligan (one of the founders 
of surrealist comedy ); he knew that just because you don't 
understand the script it doesn't mean you can't give a good 
performance.

But just occasionally, if you listen to the recordings, you can 
*hear* the echo of bewilderment in his voice. ;-)



Pip




From golden_faile at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 15 17:00:24 2003
From: golden_faile at yahoo.com (golden faile)
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 09:00:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: In-Between reading?Howl's Moving Castle
In-Reply-To: <b4t9jm+e2v2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20030315170024.82533.qmail@web41104.mail.yahoo.com>


 
 Just recently finished HOWL'S MOVING CASTLE by Dianne Wynn Jones.It was quite enjoyable, I thought that it would be a good read in-between waiting for new chapters and book 5. Has anyone else out there had a chance to read it.



-- 
Laila


Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
var lrec_target="_top";var lrec_URL = new Array();lrec_URL[1] = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.3054233.4378052.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1707544108:HM/A=1430287/R=0/id=flashurl/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405";var link="javascript:LRECopenWindow(1)";var lrec_flashfile = 'http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/intl_library_of_poetry/yahoo_300x250.swf?clickTAG='+link+'';var lrec_altURL = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.3054233.4378052.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1707544108:HM/A=1430287/R=1/id=altimgurl/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405";var lrec_altimg = "http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/intl_library_of_poetry/yahoo_300x250.gif";var lrec_width = 300;var lrec_height = 250;
________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________

Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the group's Admin Files!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/

Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying!

Is your message...
An announcement of merchandise, news etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements.
Movie-related? Send it to HPFGU-Movie.
Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups.
None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter.
Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com

Unsubscribing? Email HPFGU-OTChatter-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
____________________________________________________________ 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From urbana at charter.net  Sat Mar 15 20:00:37 2003
From: urbana at charter.net (Anne)
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 20:00:37 -0000
Subject: Fw: Texas Facts
In-Reply-To: <014301c1fa26$50e0de20$b17663d1@texas.net>
Message-ID: <b500p5+blv7@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Amanda" <editor at t...> wrote:
> These were fun. I have inserted commentary.
> 
> --Amanda
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> Subject: Fwd: Fw: Texas Facts
> 
> 
> > Facts you know in Texas:
>> > All the festivals across the state are named after a fruit, 
vegetable,
> grain, insect or animal.
> 
> Let's see. Poteet Strawberry Festival. Noonday Sweet Onion Festival.
> Floresville Peanut Festival. Hah! Wait! The Czilispiel is none of 
the above!
> Hah! But mostly, this is true.
 
Amanda, this post of yours popped up when I searched the archives 
for "owl species" (not sure why)...just wanted to tell you that you 
forgot the Mud Dauber Festival in Luckenbach on March 22 (yes, next 
Saturday :-) The mud dauber is a type of wasp that returns to the 
Texas hill country every spring, sort of the insect version of those 
swallows that return to Capistrano. I actually know people who are 
planning to attend the Mud Dauber Festival next weekend and catch 
some great music at the same time (see http://www.luckenbachtexas.com 
for more MDF details).

> > 15. You know all four seasons: Almost summer, Summer, Still 
summer, and
> Christmas.
>
I've spent a little bit of time in Texas, mostly in San Antonio, at 
times ranging from early February (when the low was about 40 degrees) 
through April (85 degrees) to late August (when it didn't go below 90 
any of the 10 days I was there). I never saw "Christmas" in Texas, 
but it did kind of seem like summer or almost summer every time I was 
there.

  > 
> > 23. You understand these jokes and forward them to your friends 
from
> Texas.
> 
> Or to your friends all over everywhere. If you read this far, you 
are
> friends indeed, or you have Texan relatives and understand.
> 
>

I have tons of friends in Texas (being a fan of lots of different 
Texas musicians). And my daughter was born there! So I love Texas 
jokes, and people, and food, and music, and ....

Anne U
(mostly still living in Wisconsin because I don't like Texas weather!)





From urbana at charter.net  Sat Mar 15 20:25:27 2003
From: urbana at charter.net (Anne)
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 20:25:27 -0000
Subject: Owl species
Message-ID: <b5027n+4thl@eGroups.com>

Okay, here's my owl question. We know that Hedwig is a snowy owl 
(although "she" is actually portrayed by a male owl, according to a 
British friend of mine in Manchester who is quite a birder). We also 
know that Malfoy has an eagle owl. So, does anyone know what kind of 
owl Pigwidgeon is? All I can remember about Pig is that he's tiny as 
owls go. Thanks! 

Anne U
(who told a group of non-HP email friends that *this* group would 
either know the answer, or know how to find out)





From dkewpie at pacbell.net  Sat Mar 15 20:54:18 2003
From: dkewpie at pacbell.net (Kewpie)
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 20:54:18 -0000
Subject: In-Between reading?Howl's Moving Castle
In-Reply-To: <20030315170024.82533.qmail@web41104.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <b503tq+tcal@eGroups.com>

I did I did!  I have been reading Dianne Wynn Jones recently. I've 
read HOWL'S MOVING CASTLE, CHARMED LIFE and is currently starting 
FIRE AND HEMLOCK. I love her writing very much and really like all 
the ones I've read a whole lot so far. I think her books are one of , 
if not, the closest to the HP series (in terms of writing style, 
story, magical setting, charactization). In fact I'm quite puzzled 
that whenever someone ask for recommendation for books like that are 
similar to HP books, her books were usually never mention while 
completely different stuffs like LOTR or His Dark Material is 
mentioned instead, at least according to my own experience. 

If anyone is familiar with the Japanese animation master Hayao 
Miyazaki whose latest work "Spirited Away" was nominated for this 
year Oscar's best animation (and hopefully it will win since it's 
obviously way better than all the other ones in the category), he and 
his animation team's latest project is the animation version of 
HOWL'S MOVING CASTLE!!! I absolutely can't wait to see it!

Joan 




--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, golden faile 
<golden_faile at y...> wrote:
> 
>  
>  Just recently finished HOWL'S MOVING CASTLE by Dianne Wynn 
Jones.It was quite enjoyable, I thought that it would be a good read 
in-between waiting for new chapters and book 5. Has anyone else out 
there had a chance to read it.
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Laila
> 
> 
> Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
> var lrec_target="_top";var lrec_URL = new Array();lrec_URL[1] 
= "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.3054233.4378052.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=
1707544108:HM/A=1430287/R=0/id=flashurl/*http://www.poetry.com/contest
/contest.asp?Suite=A33405";var link="javascript:LRECopenWindow
(1)";var lrec_flashfile = 'http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-
/flash/intl_library_of_poetry/yahoo_300x250.swf?
clickTAG='+link+'';var lrec_altURL 
= "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.3054233.4378052.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=
1707544108:HM/A=1430287/R=1/id=altimgurl/*http://www.poetry.com/contes
t/contest.asp?Suite=A33405";var lrec_altimg 
= "http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-
/flash/intl_library_of_poetry/yahoo_300x250.gif";var lrec_width = 
300;var lrec_height = 250;
> ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________
> 
> Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the group's Admin 
Files!
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/
> 
> Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary 
material from posts to which you're replying!
> 
> Is your message...
> An announcement of merchandise, news etc.? Send it to HPFGU-
Announcements.
> Movie-related? Send it to HPFGU-Movie.
> Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups.
> None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter.
> Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- 
MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com
> 
> Unsubscribing? Email HPFGU-OTChatter-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
> ____________________________________________________________ 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of 
Service. 
> 
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From zeff8 at attbi.com  Sat Mar 15 21:03:52 2003
From: zeff8 at attbi.com (Prof_chase)
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 16:03:52 -0500
Subject: saturday chat room
Message-ID: <002001c2eb36$626235c0$9c01f50c@mac>

Peeves and Prof Chase invite you to join us on Paltalk.
Go to www.paltalk.com and down load their little chat program.
Register and join us in the "meet new friends" group, and look for "hogwarts
school" This is a voice, video and text chat, and the room is moderated by
Chase and Peeves.
we are there from 3pm Central to 9pm central time. (which means we are there
now.)



For a voice and text chat, Join us at Hogwarts School on Paltalk, in the
Meet new friends group.
Join HP collectables, to discuss collecting various HP items.
Subscribe:  HPcollectables-subscribe at yahoogroups.com
Unsubscribe:  HPcollectables-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
List owner:  HPcollectables-owner at yahoogroups.com




From rvotaw at i-55.com  Sat Mar 15 21:13:22 2003
From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw)
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 15:13:22 -0600
Subject: I preordered today!
Message-ID: <011c01c2eb37$bfc395f0$d8a0cdd1@RVotaw>

The day finally came, I went to BN and preordered OotP.  I even wore one of my HP t-shirts for the occasion.  While I was there I picked up a Sparknotes SS/PS booklet and The Magical Worlds of HP.  I checked for the Basilisk by Gund just in case, but no luck there.  I already got Dobby (Gund) who is *too* cute.  

Out of curiousity, how long did Jack Dee end up standing on top of that pole last night? :)

Richelle (Who now has to go make 14 bags with 11 red, 9 orange, 7 yellow, 5 green, and 3 purple Skittles each.  Ah, the joys of teaching.)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From melclaros at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 15 21:34:37 2003
From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros)
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 21:34:37 -0000
Subject: Comic Relief
In-Reply-To: <b4tr2k+bn76@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b5069d+56p6@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "gulplum" <plumeski at y...> 
wrote:
> For the last few weeks, since everyone started talking about "Harry 
> Potter and The Secret Chamber Port of Azerbaijan", my expectations 
> have been pretty low.


Mine too...as soon as I heard they'd managed to get "chamberpots" 
into the title. Then when I looked at the photos on the promo site 
and saw that Jeremy Irons looked more like Catherine Zeta-Jones than 
Snape in any form I pretty much got over any lingering disappointment 
I might have had since it's a 99.9% sure thing that this will never 
be aired on US television.


However, after reading THIS:
> 
> Jeremy Irons as Snape was simply priceless. Being very very luvvy, 
> hamming it up, with a running commentary (e.g. "the hair's better 
his 
> time", and the ultimate "God, I'm GORGEOUS"), complaining about not 
> having been in LOTR. 
> 
> Great conversation with McGonagall: "I was only meant to be here 
for 
> a day. It's been three weeks now." "why do we do this?" "For the 
> money." "Why do they hire great actors like us when we've only got 
> one line?", etc, etc.
> 
> "Am I Slytherin?" "No, I can understand every word you say"


I've changed my mind. I MUST see this! Has anyone heard whether or 
not it will be made available on the web anywhere? HELP!

Mel--who just needs to hear the "God, I'm GORGEOUS" line and she'll 
be happy.
 





From joym999 at aol.com  Sat Mar 15 23:05:57 2003
From: joym999 at aol.com (joywitch_m_curmudgeon)
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 23:05:57 -0000
Subject: Calling all grammar geeks
Message-ID: <b50bkl+bsr3@eGroups.com>

Those of you who share my strange passion (ok, compulsion) for 
correct grammar will appreciate the irony of the t-shirt I saw at 
today's peace march:

More Schools
Less Jails

Kind of speaks for itself, doesn't it?

--Joywitch, who marched and marched around the White House today but 
doesn't think Dubya is listening




From trinity61us at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 16 00:33:29 2003
From: trinity61us at yahoo.com (alex fox)
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 16:33:29 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Owl species
In-Reply-To: <b5027n+4thl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20030316003329.94398.qmail@web14901.mail.yahoo.com>


 
 Anne <urbana at charter.net> wrote:
<So, does anyone know what kind of 
<owl Pigwidgeon is? 

Though there is no canon to support this, IMO, Pig is an Elf owl, the smallest owl in the world. Five and a half inches long, about an ounce and a half, it would be the right size. A Scops owl is mentioned in one of the books, but they have large ear tufts and look weird. Well, maybe...!

Alex, Lucius' #1 uber-fan!

 




Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
var lrec_target="_top";var lrec_URL = new Array();lrec_URL[1] = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.3054233.4378052.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1707544108:HM/A=1430287/R=0/id=flashurl/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405";var link="javascript:LRECopenWindow(1)";var lrec_flashfile = 'http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/intl_library_of_poetry/yahoo_300x250.swf?clickTAG='+link+'';var lrec_altURL = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.3054233.4378052.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1707544108:HM/A=1430287/R=1/id=altimgurl/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405";var lrec_altimg = "http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/intl_library_of_poetry/yahoo_300x250.gif";var lrec_width = 300;var lrec_height = 250;
________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________

Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the group's Admin Files!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/

Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying!

Is your message...
An announcement of merchandise, news etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements.
Movie-related? Send it to HPFGU-Movie.
Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups.
None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter.
Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com

Unsubscribing? Email HPFGU-OTChatter-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
____________________________________________________________ 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From urbana at charter.net  Sun Mar 16 00:58:01 2003
From: urbana at charter.net (Anne)
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 00:58:01 -0000
Subject: In-Between reading?Howl's Moving Castle
In-Reply-To: <b503tq+tcal@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b50i6p+k5ll@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Kewpie" <dkewpie at p...> wrote:
> I did I did!  I have been reading Dianne Wynn Jones recently. I've 
> read HOWL'S MOVING CASTLE, CHARMED LIFE and is currently starting 
> FIRE AND HEMLOCK. I love her writing very much and really like all 
> the ones I've read a whole lot so far. I think her books are one 
of , 
> if not, the closest to the HP series (in terms of writing style, 
> story, magical setting, charactization). 
 
Are those some of Diana Wynne Jones's "young adult" books? I recently 
read her more adult-oriented novel DEEP SECRET and enjoyed it a lot, 
though I thought it wasn't as engaging a read as any of the HP books -
 or maybe it just took me a long time to get into it. I'm planning to 
read some of her "young adult" books as well. I took out CART & 
CWIDDER recently but haven't started it yet, as I decided to do some 
totally escapist reading first and read a mystery called ORCHID BLUES 
by Stuart Woods. (If you want something totally escapist and easy to 
read, his books are very good.)

Anne U
(wondering what JKR reads besides 'the classics', mythology, etc.)






From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 16 01:53:29 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 01:53:29 -0000
Subject: Owl species
In-Reply-To: <20030316003329.94398.qmail@web14901.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <b50lep+s7s1@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, alex fox <trinity61us at y...> wrote:
> 
>  
>  Anne <urbana at c...> wrote:
> <So, does anyone know what kind of 
> <owl Pigwidgeon is? 
> 
> Though there is no canon to support this, IMO, Pig is an Elf owl,
the smallest owl in the world. Five and a half inches long, about an
ounce and a half, it would be the right size. A Scops owl is mentioned
in one of the books, but they have large ear tufts and look weird.
Well, maybe...!
> 
> Alex, Lucius' #1 uber-fan!

bboy_mn:

I've never heard of Elf owls, but there is a type of Pygmy owl that is
native to Europe. As far as Scops owls, I lead to believe there are
several types, I speculate that some of them may not be so distinctive
and they are very small. There is also an owl called Little Owl
(Athene noctua).

I stand corrected, as I was writing, I did some research and there are
Elf owls, but I think they are native to North America. From the
information I can find the Pygmy is the Euro equivalent of the Elf

http://www.owlpages.com/european_owls.html

http://home.arcor.de/mkirk/owls_europe.htm


Just a thought.

bboy_mn





From plumeski at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 16 03:02:02 2003
From: plumeski at yahoo.com (gulplum)
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 03:02:02 -0000
Subject: Comic Relief
In-Reply-To: <b5069d+56p6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b50pfa+mo4k@eGroups.com>

Mel finished her last post with a sig which said:

> who just needs to hear the "God, I'm GORGEOUS" line and she'll be 
> happy.

If only making the women in my life happy were always this easy:

http://plum.cream.org/HP/misc/comicrelief.htm

(third one down)

:-)

-- 
GulPlum AKA Richard, who was meant to have had an early night...





From urbana at charter.net  Sun Mar 16 04:23:10 2003
From: urbana at charter.net (Anne)
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 04:23:10 -0000
Subject: Comic Relief
In-Reply-To: <b50pfa+mo4k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b50u7e+sfmr@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "gulplum" <plumeski at y...> 
wrote:
> Mel finished her last post with a sig which said:
> 
> > who just needs to hear the "God, I'm GORGEOUS" line and she'll be 
> > happy.
> 
> If only making the women in my life happy were always this easy:
> 
> http://plum.cream.org/HP/misc/comicrelief.htm
> 
> (third one down)
> 
> :-)
> 
> -- 
> GulPlum AKA Richard, who was meant to have had an early night...

LOL Richard... as if!! :-)

It looks like Children's BBC (CBBC, right?) did its own Harry Potter 
spoof yesterday in honor of Red Nose Day.

<http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/pictures/galleries/newsid_2849000/2
849509.stm>

Check out Hairy Potter, Ron Wigsley and Hairmione Granger.

Anne U
(wishing her local cable provider (Charter) offered CBBC or any BBC 
station ... as her PBS station doesn't seem to show any French & 
Saunders stuff anymore)




From golden_faile at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 16 04:53:58 2003
From: golden_faile at yahoo.com (golden faile)
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 20:53:58 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: In-Between reading?Howl's Moving Castle
In-Reply-To: <b50i6p+k5ll@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20030316045358.76275.qmail@web41101.mail.yahoo.com>


 
Yes, they are from her young adult series, I have recently been reading these with

my son and we love them. I like Howl's Moving Castle the best though. The 

Crestomanci ones are pretty good also. 

Laila

Are those some of Diana Wynne Jones's "young adult" books? I recently 
read her more adult-oriented novel DEEP SECRET and enjoyed it a lot, 
though I thought it wasn't as engaging a read as any of the HP books -
or maybe it just took me a long time to get into it. I'm planning to 
read some of her "young adult" books as well. I took out CART & 
CWIDDER recently but haven't started it yet, as I decided to do some 
totally escapist reading first and read a mystery called ORCHID BLUES 
by Stuart Woods. (If you want something totally escapist and easy to 
read, his books are very good.)

Anne U
(wondering what JKR reads besides 'the classics', mythology, etc.)






Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
var lrec_target="_top";var lrec_URL = new Array();lrec_URL[1] = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.3054233.4378052.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1707544108:HM/A=1430287/R=0/id=flashurl/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405";var link="javascript:LRECopenWindow(1)";var lrec_flashfile = 'http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/intl_library_of_poetry/yahoo_300x250.swf?clickTAG='+link+'';var lrec_altURL = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.3054233.4378052.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1707544108:HM/A=1430287/R=1/id=altimgurl/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405";var lrec_altimg = "http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/intl_library_of_poetry/yahoo_300x250.gif";var lrec_width = 300;var lrec_height = 250;


________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________

Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the group's Admin Files!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/

Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying!

Is your message...
An announcement of merchandise, news etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements.
Movie-related? Send it to HPFGU-Movie.
Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups.
None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter.
Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com

Unsubscribing? Email HPFGU-OTChatter-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
____________________________________________________________ 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 




---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From golden_faile at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 16 05:00:19 2003
From: golden_faile at yahoo.com (golden faile)
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 21:00:19 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: In-Between reading?Howl's Moving Castle
In-Reply-To: <b503tq+tcal@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20030316050019.23556.qmail@web41113.mail.yahoo.com>


Wow!!! Thanks for the information. That will be something to see and now
that I know that it's out there I will be looking for it! I can't wait to see what
they do with Calcifer, he was by far the funniest character in the book, my
son and I were in stitches throughout the whole book.
Laila
 
 
 
 Kewpie <dkewpie at pacbell.net> wrote:I did I did!  I have been reading Dianne Wynn Jones recently. I've 
read HOWL'S MOVING CASTLE, CHARMED LIFE and is currently starting 
FIRE AND HEMLOCK. I love her writing very much and really like all 
the ones I've read a whole lot so far. I think her books are one of , 
if not, the closest to the HP series (in terms of writing style, 
story, magical setting, charactization). In fact I'm quite puzzled 
that whenever someone ask for recommendation for books like that are 
similar to HP books, her books were usually never mention while 
completely different stuffs like LOTR or His Dark Material is 
mentioned instead, at least according to my own experience. 

If anyone is familiar with the Japanese animation master Hayao 
Miyazaki whose latest work "Spirited Away" was nominated for this 
year Oscar's best animation (and hopefully it will win since it's 
obviously way better than all the other ones in the category), he and 
his animation team's latest project is the animation version of 
HOWL'S MOVING CASTLE!!! I absolutely can't wait to see it!

Joan 




--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, golden faile 
<golden_faile at y...> wrote:
> 
>  
>  Just recently finished HOWL'S MOVING CASTLE by Dianne Wynn 
Jones.It was quite enjoyable, I thought that it would be a good read 
in-between waiting for new chapters and book 5. Has anyone else out 
there had a chance to read it.
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Laila
> 
> 
> Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
> var lrec_target="_top";var lrec_URL = new Array();lrec_URL[1] 
= "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.3054233.4378052.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=
1707544108:HM/A=1430287/R=0/id=flashurl/*http://www.poetry.com/contest
/contest.asp?Suite=A33405";var link="javascript:LRECopenWindow
(1)";var lrec_flashfile = 'http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-
/flash/intl_library_of_poetry/yahoo_300x250.swf?
clickTAG='+link+'';var lrec_altURL 
= "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.3054233.4378052.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=
1707544108:HM/A=1430287/R=1/id=altimgurl/*http://www.poetry.com/contes
t/contest.asp?Suite=A33405";var lrec_altimg 
= "http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-
/flash/intl_library_of_poetry/yahoo_300x250.gif";var lrec_width = 
300;var lrec_height = 250;
> ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________
> 
> Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the group's Admin 
Files!
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/
> 
> Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary 
material from posts to which you're replying!
> 
> Is your message...
> An announcement of merchandise, news etc.? Send it to HPFGU-
Announcements.
> Movie-related? Send it to HPFGU-Movie.
> Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups.
> None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter.
> Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- 
MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com
> 
> Unsubscribing? Email HPFGU-OTChatter-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
> ____________________________________________________________ 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of 
Service. 
> 
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
var lrec_target="_top";var lrec_URL = new Array();lrec_URL[1] = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.3054233.4378052.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1707544108:HM/A=1430287/R=0/id=flashurl/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405";var link="javascript:LRECopenWindow(1)";var lrec_flashfile = 'http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/intl_library_of_poetry/yahoo_300x250.swf?clickTAG='+link+'';var lrec_altURL = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.3054233.4378052.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1707544108:HM/A=1430287/R=1/id=altimgurl/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405";var lrec_altimg = "http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/intl_library_of_poetry/yahoo_300x250.gif";var lrec_width = 300;var lrec_height = 250;
________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________

Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the group's Admin Files!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/

Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying!

Is your message...
An announcement of merchandise, news etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements.
Movie-related? Send it to HPFGU-Movie.
Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups.
None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter.
Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com

Unsubscribing? Email HPFGU-OTChatter-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
____________________________________________________________ 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Mar 16 06:35:03 2003
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 06:35:03 -0000
Subject: DWJ / Strawberry Festival / Owls 
Message-ID: <b515un+5396@eGroups.com>

Laila wrote:

<< Just recently finished HOWL'S MOVING CASTLE by Dianne Wynn Jones.
It was quite enjoyable, I thought that it would be a good read 
in-between waiting for new chapters and book 5. Has anyone else out 
there had a chance to read it. >>

I read it several years ago and enjoyed it and have always intended 
to read more Diana Wynn Jones, but all I actually have read is her 
book of short stories including "What the Cat Told Me".

Anne U dug up this old post from Amanda:

<< Facts you know in Texas:
>> > All the festivals across the state are named after a fruit, 
>> > vegetable, grain, insect or animal.
> Let's see. Poteet Strawberry Festival. Noonday Sweet Onion 
> Festival. Floresville Peanut Festival. Hah! Wait! The Czilispiel
> is none of the above!
> Hah! But mostly, this is true.

California has plenty of festivals named after a fruit or vegetable. 
I've attended the Indio Date Festival (which is the Riverside County 
Fair) and the Garden Grove Strawberry Festival (whose strawberries 
are all imported because Garden Grove has grown nothing but suburban 
housing as long as I can remember). But I have never attended the 
Gilroy Garlic Festival, the Broccoli Festival, the Asparagus 
Festival, or any of the other "Central" California agriculturally 
named festivals for which fabulous cat artist J. S. Perry makes theme 
pictures for. http://www.jsperry.com/

Steve bboy_mn wrote:

<< there is a type of Pygmy owl that is native to Europe. >>
<< there are Elf owls, but I think they are native to North 
America. >>

The British wizarding folk can have New World owls. In canon (PS/SS) 
the sign on Eeylops Owl Emporium says "Tawny, Screech, Barn, Brown, 
and Snowy." Screech owls are a New World owls. 

According to The Owl Pages info, Elf Owls are slightly smaller than 
Pygmy Owls: 
Average Lengths: Female 16 cm (6.1") , Male and 15 cm (5.8").  
Average Wingspan: Female 38 cm (15") , Male 37 cm (14.6"). 
Average Weight:  44g (1.5oz) for breeding females.
VERSUS 
Length: Females 17.4-19cm (6.8-7.5")  Males 15.2-17cm (6-6.7")  
Weight: Females 67-77g (2.36-2.7oz)   Males 50-65g (1.76-2.3oz)     

More important, the Elf Owl's flight is described more like 
Pigwidgeon's:
"Flight is somewhat bat-like, but not as erratic." versus "Flight is 
woodpecker-like and undulating over a distance."




From golden_faile at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 16 07:06:52 2003
From: golden_faile at yahoo.com (golden faile)
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 23:06:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] re: DWJ / Strawberry Festival / Owls
In-Reply-To: <b515un+5396@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20030316070652.88551.qmail@web41104.mail.yahoo.com>


 
 "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" <catlady at wicca.net> wrote:


I read it several years ago and enjoyed it and have always intended 
to read more Diana Wynn Jones, but all I actually have read is her 
book of short stories including "What the Cat Told Me".

Laila:

She has others I liked the Crestomanci novels but some of her others took a bit long getting to the action.


Catlady:


California has plenty of festivals named after a fruit or vegetable. 
I've attended the Indio Date Festival (which is the Riverside County 
Fair) and the Garden Grove Strawberry Festival (whose strawberries 
are all imported because Garden Grove has grown nothing but suburban 
housing as long as I can remember). 

Laila:

Oxnard has a Strawberry Festival too, I went a couple of years back. I ended up spending a small fortune, but it was worth it. I had a good time and the strawberry funnel cake was to die for, mmmmmmmm....



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From macloudt at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Mar 16 09:46:52 2003
From: macloudt at yahoo.co.uk (Mary Ann)
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 09:46:52 -0000
Subject: Birthday Greetings!
Message-ID: <b51h6c+h02n@eGroups.com>

:::::skips into the room tossing balloons and confetti about:::::

It's birthday time again!  Today's wishes go to Laila, She Who 
Recommends Really Good Books. ;)  Greetings can be sent to the List 
or to golden_faile at yahoo.com

Have a lovely day, Laila, and I hope you're spoiled with lots of HP 
goodies!

Mary Ann
(who was out Friday night and taped Comic Relief, and is glad she did)




From HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com  Sun Mar 16 16:02:37 2003
From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com (HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 16 Mar 2003 16:02:37 -0000
Subject: Reminder - Weekly Chat 
Message-ID: <1047830557.25.22685.m3@yahoogroups.com>


We would like to remind you of this upcoming event.

Weekly Chat 

Date: Sunday, March 16, 2003 
Time: 11:00AM - 7:00PM CST (GMT-06:00) 

Hi everyone! Don't forget, chat happens today, 11 am Pacific, 2
pm Eastern, 7 pm UK time. Go into any Yahoo chat room and type
/join HP:1 
For further info, see the Humongous BigFile, section 3.3.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/hbfile.html#33

Hope to see you there! 

 





From amphoteric at esatlink.com  Sun Mar 16 21:17:39 2003
From: amphoteric at esatlink.com (lisa amphoteric)
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 21:17:39 -0000
Subject: Owl species
In-Reply-To: <20030316003329.94398.qmail@web14901.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <b52plj+6o5s@eGroups.com>

Alex <trinity61us at y...> wrote:
 
>  Anne <urbana at c...> wrote:
>>So, does anyone know what kind of 
>>owl Pigwidgeon is? 
> 
> Though there is no canon to support this, IMO, 
> Pig is an Elf owl, the smallest owl in the world. 
> Five and a half inches long, about an ounce and a
> half, it would be the right size. 

Roger Highfield's _The Science of Harry Potter_ (lovely book, even if 
nobody but me bothered to review it on Amazon UK) suggests Pig is an 
elf owl, too, and mentions that they're native to Mexico and the 
southwestern part of the US. 

When I first read that, I was surprised, as I'd assumed (not sure 
why) that Sirius had been in Africa, and that the bird would have 
been from there if not native to Britain, but I suppose there's no 
real reason it would be, is there? 


Lisa / amphoteric




From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Mar 16 21:34:01 2003
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 21:34:01 -0000
Subject: Owl species/Sirius's hiding place 
In-Reply-To: <b52plj+6o5s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b52qk9+ldq9@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "lisa amphoteric" wrote:

> Roger Highfield's _The Science of Harry Potter_ (lovely book, even
> if nobody but me bothered to review it on Amazon UK) suggests Pig
> is an elf owl, too, and mentions that they're native to Mexico and
> the southwestern part of the US. 
> 
> When I first read that, I was surprised, as I'd assumed (not sure 
> why) that Sirius had been in Africa, and that the bird would have 
> been from there if not native to Britain, but I suppose there's no 
> real reason it would be, is there? 

I assumed that Sirius's "somewhere warm" hiding place was a Caribbean 
island, but I also assumed that he sent Pig from "en route" to 
wherever he was "planning to allow some Muggles to glimpse me soon, a 
long way from Hogwarts" --- which for no reason I assumed was France.




From melclaros at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 16 22:50:15 2003
From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros)
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 22:50:15 -0000
Subject: Comic Relief
In-Reply-To: <b50pfa+mo4k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b52v37+smt4@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "gulplum" <plumeski at y...> 
wrote:
> Mel finished her last post with a sig which said:
> 
> > who just needs to hear the "God, I'm GORGEOUS" line and she'll be 
> > happy.
> 
> If only making the women in my life happy were always this easy:
> 
> http://plum.cream.org/HP/misc/comicrelief.htm
> 
> (third one down)
> 
 
GFETE! (Grinning from ear to ear!)

Mel




From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 17 00:51:11 2003
From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent)
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 00:51:11 -0000
Subject: slang and HP
In-Reply-To: <WorldClient-F200303142051.AA51010454@aokp.org>
Message-ID: <b5365v+ckd9@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "chanteuse thalia chaunacy" 
<thalia at a...> wrote:
  
> my question: is this all 'normal' slang? do you, as people of the 
> UK, understand every single word? or does JKR get creative, you 
> know, make up her own uses for words? or does she use 'outdated' 
> words? (does anybody *really* say 'blimey' anymore? or has it gone 
> the way of 'rad' in the US?)
 
Heavens, I must be ancient, since "rad" came and went after I left 
school.  I'm not a Brit, but I see 'blimey' quite often in other UK 
books that have not been Americanized (or 'Americanised').  A nice 
book to look at for some kids' dialogue which hasn't been changed 
(my copy even has UK spellings) is Nick Hornby's "About a Boy."  

As for JKR's choice of slang, it's worth noting that while I was 
once upbraided by a Britpicker for having a character say, "Man," as 
an exclamation in a fanfiction, I KNEW for certain that I'd seen JKR 
use this in one of the books.  Upon closer inspection, however, it 
turned out to be coming out of the mouth of Lee Jordan.  Inasmuch as 
Lee is described as having dreadlocks, it's possible that this and 
his use of "man" is meant to signify a Jamaican background.  (In 
which case I suppose it would be pronounced "Mon.")  It's 
interesting that, on top of everything else, JKR seems to even have 
the characters using ethnically-appropriate (if stereotypical) 
slang.  I'm not remembering whether we were ever told if Lee's a 
Muggle-born, but that would probably further explain his use of this 
term.

The only major character who uses relatively colorful wizard-related 
exclamations is Hagrid, which is where I think JKR is just making 
things up.  I do wish fanfiction authors would stop having the 
characters--especially the teens--say things like "Merlin's beard!" 
or "Great Hekate!"  JKR never has the students say things like that.


--Barb



http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent
http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb




From belleps at october.com  Mon Mar 17 03:33:24 2003
From: belleps at october.com (Beth)
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 21:33:24 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Texas festivals
In-Reply-To: <1047825083.983.79614.m12@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20030316212413.00a101e0@pop.cox-internet.com>

At 02:31 PM 3/16/03 +0000, you wrote:
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > Subject: Fwd: Fw: Texas Facts
> >
> >
> > > Facts you know in Texas:
> >> > All the festivals across the state are named after a fruit,
>vegetable,
> > grain, insect or animal.
> >
> > Let's see. Poteet Strawberry Festival. Noonday Sweet Onion Festival.
> > Floresville Peanut Festival. Hah! Wait! The Czilispiel is none of
>the above!
> > Hah! But mostly, this is true.
>

Spamarama in Austin. March 29th this year. Believe me, Spam (proud potted 
meat product) is not a fruit, vegetable, grain, insect or animal. (Though 
people have made sculptures of these things out of Spam for "creative use 
of" in past years, IIRC. Honest.) The organizer is called the "Potentate of 
Potted Pork Parties". For more information, see www.spamarama.com. For a 
good laugh, read the entry form for the cook-off. ("In case of indigestion, 
contact ___________.")

bel 




From golden_faile at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 17 05:16:15 2003
From: golden_faile at yahoo.com (golden faile)
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 21:16:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Birthday Greetings!
In-Reply-To: <b51h6c+h02n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20030317051615.2186.qmail@web41106.mail.yahoo.com>


Thank you. I appreciate it.
 
Laila
 
 Mary Ann <macloudt at yahoo.co.uk> wrote::::::skips into the room tossing balloons and confetti about:::::

It's birthday time again!  Today's wishes go to Laila, She Who 
Recommends Really Good Books. ;)  Greetings can be sent to the List 
or to golden_faile at yahoo.com

Have a lovely day, Laila, and I hope you're spoiled with lots of HP 
goodies!

Mary Ann
(who was out Friday night and taped Comic Relief, and is glad she did)


Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
var lrec_target="_top";var lrec_URL = new Array();lrec_URL[1] = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.3054233.4378052.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1707544108:HM/A=1430287/R=0/id=flashurl/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405";var link="javascript:LRECopenWindow(1)";var lrec_flashfile = 'http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/intl_library_of_poetry/yahoo_300x250.swf?clickTAG='+link+'';var lrec_altURL = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.3054233.4378052.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1707544108:HM/A=1430287/R=1/id=altimgurl/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405";var lrec_altimg = "http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/intl_library_of_poetry/yahoo_300x250.gif";var lrec_width = 300;var lrec_height = 250;
________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________

Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the group's Admin Files!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/

Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying!

Is your message...
An announcement of merchandise, news etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements.
Movie-related? Send it to HPFGU-Movie.
Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups.
None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter.
Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com

Unsubscribing? Email HPFGU-OTChatter-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
____________________________________________________________ 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Mon Mar 17 08:00:58 2003
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David)
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 08:00:58 -0000
Subject: DWJ, Owls, 'Man',
In-Reply-To: <b515un+5396@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b53vbq+4nbl@eGroups.com>

Catlady wrote:
> Laila wrote:
> 
> << Just recently finished HOWL'S MOVING CASTLE by Dianne Wynn 
Jones.
> It was quite enjoyable, I thought that it would be a good read 
> in-between waiting for new chapters and book 5. Has anyone else 
out 
> there had a chance to read it. >>

There's a sequel too, "Castles in the Air", IMO not quite as good as 
the first one.


> The British wizarding folk can have New World owls. In canon 
(PS/SS) 
> the sign on Eeylops Owl Emporium says "Tawny, Screech, Barn, 
Brown, 
> and Snowy." Screech owls are a New World owls. 

Not necessarily.  Screech Owl is an old name here (UK) for the Barn 
Owl.  (I think Brown Owl is an alternative name for the Tawny Owl, 
too.)  The fact that the same species is mentioned twice could mean 
that foreign owl species are envisaged (I think the Eagle Owl which 
Draco owns is not native to the UK), or it could just be some 
distinction within species that the wizarding world makes.

Barb wrote:

> As for JKR's choice of slang, it's worth noting that while I was 
once upbraided by a Britpicker for having a character say, "Man," as 
an exclamation in a fanfiction, I KNEW for certain that I'd seen JKR 
use this in one of the books. Upon closer inspection, however, it 
turned out to be coming out of the mouth of Lee Jordan. Inasmuch as 
Lee is described as having dreadlocks, it's possible that this and 
his use of "man" is meant to signify a Jamaican background.

I think the American usage is (was for a while?) sufficiently common 
here that having muggleborns say it would not be out of place.  But 
you're probably right about Lee, though I don't know if other 
Caribbean islands such as Barbados and Trinidad are ruled out.

People in the north-east of England call each other 'man', even if 
the person being addressed is female.  This usage is however quite 
distinct from the use of 'man' as an exclamation, usually occurring 
at the end of a sentence.

David, who thinks Spamarama sounds like a festival for the online age




From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 17 09:21:15 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 09:21:15 -0000
Subject: slang and HP - Reckon
In-Reply-To: <b5365v+ckd9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b5442b+onfi@eGroups.com>

I'm curious about the word 'reckon'. 

Do people in Britain actually use that word as much as we see it in
the book? 

Harry and Ron use it all the time. The only people I know of who
consistently use that word in everyday speech are driving pick-up
trucks around that great state of Texas.

Of all the language, Brit-speak, slang, etc..., 'reckon' was the one
word that struck me as the most odd.

Just curious.

bboy_mn




From dradamsapple at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 17 16:52:11 2003
From: dradamsapple at yahoo.com (dradamsapple)
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 16:52:11 -0000
Subject: Happy St. Patrick's Day!!!
Message-ID: <b54ufr+umfs@eGroups.com>

May I be the first to wish one and all a Happy St. Patrick's Day!!
(am I really the first?)

And, a question;  Is St. Patrick's Day as big of a Holiday in Ireland 
as it is here in certain parts of the US?  And what excatly does it 
celebrate? 


Anna . . .(who live just outside the home of the Boston Celtics . . 
need I say more??)




From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 17 18:28:23 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 18:28:23 -0000
Subject: BBC - JAM CAM - Eye on London
Message-ID: <b55447+trup@eGroups.com>

I found this BBC travel site that has web cams all over London, so you
can see street scene in many areas of the city including Charring
Cross Road.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/london/travel/jamcams/north_central.shtml

This is only one section of the city. In the lower right hand corner
is a cluster of camera. One of the cameras near the top of that
cluster is Charring Cross Road.

Here is the main JAM CAM site-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/london/travel/jamcams/index.shtml

There are 160 cameras available for viewing, although a few of them
are down for maintenance right now.

Just thought I would pass that along.

bboy_mn




From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk  Mon Mar 17 19:32:33 2003
From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte)
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 19:32:33 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)
Subject: Loyal Hufflepuffs
Message-ID: <3E7622D1.000003.42583@monica>

I'm making some sets of web graphics for HP themed pages and I desperately
need some badger clip art. I have really cool stylized snakes, lions and
eagles but I need something for my hufflepuffs. I have house badges btw but
I need a graphic to go on other elements.

Please tell me someone round here has a nice picture of a badger.

K 



From Ali at zymurgy.org  Mon Mar 17 20:20:09 2003
From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali)
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 20:20:09 -0000
Subject: slang and HP - Reckon
In-Reply-To: <b5442b+onfi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b55alp+cqnh@eGroups.com>

Steve BBoy asked:-

>>> I'm curious about the word 'reckon'. 
 
 Do people in Britain actually use that word as much as we see it in
 the book? 
 
 Harry and Ron use it all the time. The only people I know of who
 consistently use that word in everyday speech are driving pick-up
 trucks around that great state of Texas.
 
 Of all the language, Brit-speak, slang, etc..., 'reckon' was the one
 word that struck me as the most odd.<<<

I use it very regularly. I know lots of other people who use it to. 
I'm not sure if it's a word I've picked up out of context, but it's 
never struck me as at al odd that Harry and Ron use it.

Ali

(who reckons that the slang that JKR uses is more reflective of her 
generation than current day teenagers, simply because language 
changes so rapidly).





From neilward at dircon.co.uk  Mon Mar 17 21:25:24 2003
From: neilward at dircon.co.uk (Neil Ward)
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 21:25:24 -0000
Subject: slang and HP - Reckon
In-Reply-To: <b55alp+cqnh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b55eg4+4cj8@eGroups.com>

Steve BBoy asked:-

<< I'm curious about the word 'reckon'. 
  
Do people in Britain actually use that word as much as we see it in 
the book? >>

Like Ali, I use that word a lot and would say it's a very common 
colloquial alternative to think/feel.  Most of the slang and 
colloquial language in the HP books seems pretty standard to me, but 
perhaps I'm just as out of touch as JKR and don't realise how 
stonkingly uncool I am.  

It hadn't occurred to me that a word like 'reckon' would seem odd to 
people outside Britain.  No wonder I got some funny looks when I was 
in New York, recently.

Neil    




From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 17 21:52:01 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 21:52:01 -0000
Subject: slang and HP - Reckon
In-Reply-To: <b55alp+cqnh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b55g21+q43u@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Ali" <Ali at z...> wrote:
> Steve BBoy asked:-
> 
> >>> I'm curious about the word 'reckon'. 
>  
>  Do people in Britain actually use that word as much as we see it in
>  the book? 
>  
> The only people I know who ... use that word ... (are cowboys).
>  
> Of all the language, Brit-speak, slang, etc..., 'reckon' was 
> the one word that struck me as the most odd.<<<


> 
> I use it very regularly. I know lots of other people who use it to. 
> I'm not sure if it's a word I've picked up out of context, but it's 
> never struck me as at all odd that Harry and Ron use it.
> 
> Ali
> 
> (who reckons that the slang that JKR uses is more reflective of her 
> generation than current day teenagers, simply because language 
> changes so rapidly).


bboy_mn:
Thanks for the reply, and thanks to the people who replied off line.
There is very little Brit-speak that I don't know or can't figure out
realative to understanding the story, so when I encounter things like-

using AS instead of SINCE (USA: Since it was getting late, we... UK:
As it was getting late, we...)

Using AS WELL instead of TOO (UK:I like chocolate as well. USA: I like
chocolate too.)

phrases like blimey, bloody, bleeding, ruddy, codswallop, Oy!, Oi!,
gerroff, jumper instead of sweater, garden instead of yard or lawn,
crikey, marks instead of grades, biscuits instead of cookies, pudding
instead of desert, etc...

..none of that bothered me. That all seemed perfectly in place, and I
had no trouble understanding the meaning from the context. So very
little caught me off-guard or left me confused. But every time I came
to the work 'reckon' it seemed disjointed or out of place. I learned
to accept it as part of the way JKR wrote the story, but I still had
this odd feeling that the characters should break into a Taxas dawl
whenever they spoke the word. 

This isn't really a problem, it's just that of all the unique British
speech patterns and phrases, this least significant one ended up being
the one that bothered me.

RE: Slang in general-
There is some slang that is somewhat universal and timeless like
'blimey'. I would guess that 'Blimey' has been British slang for
something like 500 years. The same could be said for 'bloody'. Or in
contemporary language, the term 'cool' spans several generation. I
would guess that most of the slang JKR uses is of this universal
timeless form. If she used a lot of generational slang, that could
make her books seem very dated in the not too distant future. 

One last slang question, how promenent is the term 'Luv' in
contemporary British language? Based on old movies and Telly shows,
there was a time when everybody called everybody 'Luv'. "Hey luv, pass
 the salt.", "Luv, could you bring us another round of ales?", etc...
Just curious.

bboy_mn




From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk  Mon Mar 17 22:02:26 2003
From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte)
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 22:02:26 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: slang and HP - Reckon
References: <b55g21+q43u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3E7645F2.000001.55553@monica>

 

One last slang question, how promenent is the term 'Luv' in
contemporary British language? Based on old movies and Telly shows,
there was a time when everybody called everybody 'Luv'. "Hey luv, pass
the salt.", "Luv, could you bring us another round of ales?", etc...
Just curious.
 
bboy_mn
 
 It tends to be regional. It's very common in and around London, where I
live. (Also annoying as anything, especially when used at the end of *every*
sentence). Where i went to university in the Midlands they tended to use
duck instead (because no one minds being compared to a waddling, web-footed
bird!). Newcastle/Durham way they use pet. Ummm - running dry here, my
mother's ex-boss was from the West Country and he used to refer to everyone
(customers, staff, his bosses, absolutely everyone) as 'my lover'.

Also it's generally used mainly to women, specifically women younger than
you (or that's my experience anyway). Waitresses/barmaids especially but
pretty much any female. Oh and cabbies absolutely adore the word.

K



From rvotaw at i-55.com  Mon Mar 17 23:55:55 2003
From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw)
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 17:55:55 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: slang and HP - Reckon
References: <b55eg4+4cj8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <006e01c2ece0$c09a1cb0$3b9ccdd1@RVotaw>

Neil wrote:

> It hadn't occurred to me that a word like 'reckon' would seem odd to 
> people outside Britain.  No wonder I got some funny looks when I was 
> in New York, recently.

I use "reckon" all the time, and I'm not in Britain.  Or Texas. :)  I suppose y'all are going to tell me that Louisiana's close enough to Texas to count? (Though some Texans would argue that point.)  Anyway, I guess it's just a regional thing, though before HP I'd have never imagined they'd say "reckon" in the UK.  I don't suppose they say y'all, though . . . That's the one I get funny looks for when I'm in New York. :)

Richelle


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From mckosvc at bmts.com  Tue Mar 18 02:43:58 2003
From: mckosvc at bmts.com (ovc88guelph)
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 02:43:58 -0000
Subject: slang and HP - Reckon
In-Reply-To: <b55g21+q43u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b5615e+53hr@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <bboy_mn at y...> wrote:
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Ali" <Ali at z...> wrote:
> > Steve BBoy asked:-
> > 
> > >>> I'm curious about the word 'reckon'. 
> >  
> >  Do people in Britain actually use that word as much as we see 
it in
> >  the book? 
  The word "reckon" didn't stand out to me at all. However, most 
Canadians would use "think" instead. When I read the books, it 
seemed as British as "jumper", but I'm afraid now that the seed of 
saying "reckin'" with a southern drawl has been planted in my brain, 
it will indeed stand out!
bboy_mn:
 
> using AS instead of SINCE (USA: Since it was getting late, we... 
UK:
> As it was getting late, we...)
> 
> Using AS WELL instead of TOO (UK:I like chocolate as well. USA: I 
like
> chocolate too.)
> 
> phrases like blimey, bloody, bleeding, ruddy, codswallop, Oy!, Oi!,
> gerroff, jumper instead of sweater, garden instead of yard or lawn,
> crikey, marks instead of grades, biscuits instead of cookies, 
pudding
> instead of desert, etc...
   It seems that north of 45 there is a blend of both American and 
British English. I'd use "as" or "since", "as well" 
or "too", "bloody", and "marks" without a second thought. 
Isn't "crikey" Australian? However, "fringe" instead of "bangs" made 
me pause. And I'm still not entirely sure what "treacle" is. I hope 
someone can enlighten me because I'm likely to form a lasting (and 
wrong) impression of, say, peanut brittle. I was recently shocked at 
seeing a recipe for Turkish Delight. I distinctly remember my second 
grade teacher telling me it was toffee, when I stumbled across the 
phrase in "The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe". The same book made 
me the subject of some ridicule and embarassment in my mid-twenties 
when I staunchly insisted that beavers were fish eaters. (After all, 
Mr. Beaver fried up trout for the Pevensies. And why would they 
build those bloody damns, except to catch fish?) 

MMcK 





From jrober4 at bellsouth.net  Tue Mar 18 05:27:53 2003
From: jrober4 at bellsouth.net (jrober4 at bellsouth.net)
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 00:27:53 -0500
Subject: The morality question
Message-ID: <00c401c2ed0f$20e5d220$54a3d6d1@nonexuzodpqjy5>

Not having been in the HPFGU egroups long, I have missed out on discussing one particular aspect of HP that interested me.  One of the reasons this interests me is that it kept me from discovering HP until about a month ago.  I asked my "elf" about this, and she pointed me to a thread that was posted 14 months ago, which I found very enlightening on both sides of the issue.  Then, she suggested that I post about this here.

So, here I am.  I remember when the SS movie first came out, particularly, there was a lot of fuss about things being in the HP universe that some Christians had a problem with, and I understand that reasoning.  Also, I remember hearing that the characters in it that are considered the "good guys" engaged in lying and that seemed to be okay for them to do.  Both of these things are what kept me away from HP for so long.  Then, when SS came on Cinemax, somehow my curiosity got the best of me -- I am a fan of the fantasy genre (particularly Anne McCaffrey) -- and I watched the movie.  Much to my surprise, I really *liked* it, and sympathized with Harry very much.  That got me to buy the four books, and I am up to GoF for the second time around.  

I must confess that the fact that Harry, Ron and Hermione lies -- with very little, if any, consequences -- still concerns me, though.  It seems to me that this is used as a story device so that Harry, especially, is in the position to "save the day".  Maybe I'm wrong, and I imagine that those who don't agree with me about this will have plenty to say.  This wouldn't matter if it weren't for the fact that these books are directed at children.  In a day when there are those who would subjugate the importance of a solid moral foundation, I would like to see there be more consequences in a genre that is so popular with children (and us adults).  It really impresses me to hear the reports about the achievement of getting so many children to read who didn't like books before, then going on to other works of literature.  But, I also come into this at a disadvantage, as I am an American and there are things in the books that you UK'ers understand better than I ever would.  So, I would like to ask anyone who is willing to feel free to speak about things that an American like me wouldn't understand.  Since I like the books so much now, I would like to understand everything I can about what is going on and why certain things are written the way they are.

The issue of lying is certain something I have wrestled with.  I don't believe in the concept of "the end justifies the means", which seems to be what's involved in the HP books.  I mean, if Harry lies so that he can do something that results in something good, that should be okay, right?  Sorry, but I have a problem with that.  I'm not naive about this -- I wrestle with the  question of what would I do if I were hiding Jews in Nazi Germany and soldiers came to my door?  To this day, I don't have the answer to that.  Is this a fair comparison with what happens in the HP books?  I don't know the answer to that, either.  If this is not an old and worn out issue, I would be willing to discuss this with anyone who is interested, who can offer reasoned and intelligent comments about it . . . and who can be respectful of *both* sides of the issue.  I think I have an open mind about discussing this, without imposing my beliefs on anyone but not compromising the moral foundation that is a very important part of who I am.  I hope this makes sense, *chuckle*.  

As for the "witchcraft" aspect of it -- I do not find this threatening to my religious beliefs, and I can keep it in context.  However -- at the risk of outraging some of you -- I believe that parents have the right to raise their children as they see fit (as long as it doesn't break basic laws), including those who don't like the witchcraft in the HP books and movies and so deny their children access to them.  Once those children reach the age of 18 and go out on their own -- if they decide to read HP *then*, they are adults and have that right to choose.

Comments?

Judy       

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From trinity61us at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 18 05:46:37 2003
From: trinity61us at yahoo.com (alex fox)
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 21:46:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Texas festivals
In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20030316212413.00a101e0@pop.cox-internet.com>
Message-ID: <20030318054637.41806.qmail@web14912.mail.yahoo.com>


 
 Beth <belleps at october.com> wrote:
<All the festivals across the state are named after a <fruit,
>vegetable,
> > grain, insect or animal.
> >

"Eeyors Birthday Party" in Austin!!! A celebration of individuality, profits going to Childrens Charities!!! It is a hoot! They have a website. Look it up for a  laugh or two!

Alex, Loving Luscious Lucius! 
Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
var lrec_target="_top";var lrec_URL = new Array();lrec_URL[1] = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.3054233.4378052.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1707544108:HM/A=1430287/R=0/id=flashurl/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405";var link="javascript:LRECopenWindow(1)";var lrec_flashfile = 'http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/intl_library_of_poetry/yahoo_300x250.swf?clickTAG='+link+'';var lrec_altURL = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.3054233.4378052.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1707544108:HM/A=1430287/R=1/id=altimgurl/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405";var lrec_altimg = "http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/intl_library_of_poetry/yahoo_300x250.gif";var lrec_width = 300;var lrec_height = 250;
________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________

Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the group's Admin Files!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/

Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying!

Is your message...
An announcement of merchandise, news etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements.
Movie-related? Send it to HPFGU-Movie.
Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups.
None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter.
Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com

Unsubscribing? Email HPFGU-OTChatter-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
____________________________________________________________ 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From catlady at wicca.net  Tue Mar 18 05:51:12 2003
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 05:51:12 -0000
Subject: slang and HP - Reckon
In-Reply-To: <b55eg4+4cj8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b56c4g+nf48@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Neil Ward" wrote:

> It hadn't occurred to me that a word like 'reckon' would seem odd
> to people outside Britain.  No wonder I got some funny looks when I
> was in New York, recently.

When I lived in NYC in the early 1980s, my domestic partner of the 
time was a Londoner -- his adorable accent *almost* made up for him 
hitting me. In one non-violent conversation, I commented on him 
always using the word 'reckon'. He said it's an Americanism that 
Brits imitate. I pointed out that we didn't know any Americans who 
ever said 'reckon'.






From catlady at wicca.net  Tue Mar 18 06:06:22 2003
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 06:06:22 -0000
Subject: slang and HP - Reckon
In-Reply-To: <b5615e+53hr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b56d0u+heth@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "ovc88guelph" <mckosvc at b...> 
wrote:

> And I'm still not entirely sure what "treacle" is. I hope 
> someone can enlighten me because I'm likely to form a lasting (and 
> wrong) impression of, say, peanut brittle. 

www.onelook.com <-- wonderful dictionary

http://cafecreosote.com/dictionary.php3?letter=t&pos=20
"Treacle:
A term used mainly in Great Britain for the syrupy by-product 
created during sugar refining. There are two types: dark treacle ? 
which is very much like molasses and which has a somewhat bitter 
taste, and light treacle, which contains fewer impurities than the 
dark variety, has a lighter flavor and is also called golden syrup."


I believe that in USA we call all the above molasses, "blackstrap 
molasses" for the tarry stuff and "light" molasses for the 
translucent amber liquid.




From sushi at societyhappens.com  Tue Mar 18 06:31:13 2003
From: sushi at societyhappens.com (Sushi)
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 00:31:13 -0600
Subject: Molasses (was: Re: slang and HP - Reckon)
In-Reply-To: <b56d0u+heth@eGroups.com>
References: <b5615e+53hr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030318001931.02d36a10@mail.societyhappens.com>

         Catlady said:

>I believe that in USA we call all the above molasses, "blackstrap
>molasses" for the tarry stuff and "light" molasses for the
>translucent amber liquid.

         Blackstrap is a very specific kind of molasses.  It's the darkest 
of all possible types, more bitter than sweet, and is basically unrefined 
cane syrup that's been boiled down until it more resembles tar than 
molasses.  This stuff goes above and beyond normal dark molasses.  This is 
the week-old super-concentrated office coffee of sweeteners.  I can't live 
without it, personally.

         The dark stuff, equivalent to treacle, is just plain old 
molasses.  The lighter stuff is usually labelled "unsulphured".  Then 
there's sorghum (from an entirely different plant - heck, an entirely 
different plant *family*), cane syrup, beet syrup (not common in my neck of 
the woods), and a whole plethora of other liquid sweeteners that more or 
less fall under "molasses".  As far as I'm aware, only proper cane-syrup 
molasses - the unsulphured kind - can really be used in place of 
treacle.  (The stronger stuff is *too* strong.)

         Golden syrup is closer to corn syrup.  However, I think it, too, 
is made from cane, although not boiled down long enough to take on more 
than a golden cast.  Think: first step is golden, second is 
treacle/molasses, third is blackstrap (and most commonly used for cattle 
feed because almost no humans will touch it).

         Okay, so my family cooks and I got the genes.

Sushi, sliding back into her lurkin' corner


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 18 09:09:38 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 09:09:38 -0000
Subject: The morality question
In-Reply-To: <00c401c2ed0f$20e5d220$54a3d6d1@nonexuzodpqjy5>
Message-ID: <b56noi+dph1@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, <jrober4 at b...> wrote:
> ...edited...
> 
> ...  Also, I remember hearing that the characters in it that are
considered the "good guys" engaged in lying and that seemed to be okay
for them to do.  ...edited...
> 
> I must confess that the fact that Harry, Ron and Hermione lies --
with very little, if any, consequences -- still concerns me, though. 
 ...edited...  In a day when there are those who would subjugate the
importance of a solid moral foundation, I would like to see there be
more consequences in a genre that is so popular with children (and us
adults).  ...edited...
> 
> The issue of lying is certain something I have wrestled with.  I
don't believe in the concept of "the end justifies the means", which
seems to be what's involved in the HP books.  I mean, if Harry lies so
that he can do something that results in something good, that should
be okay, right?  Sorry, but I have a problem with that.  
> 
> ...edited... I believe that parents have the right to raise their
children as they see fit ..., including those who don't like the
witchcraft in the HP books and movies and so deny their children
access to them.  ...edited...
> 
> Comments?
> 
> Judy       


bboy_mn:
Let me start on a dangerous side track, dangerous because it treads
into the area of religion which is dangerous under the best of
circumstances.

We are ALL sinners. That's why we have religion and churches. That
where we turn for the fellowship and support to help us strive to be
better than we are while at the same time accepting that we will never
be morally perfect. The goal is not to be a saint, but to TRY to do
your best to be as saintly as we are able.

It is the trying, the striving toward a goal, the genuine desire to do
what is morally right that makes you a good person. And each and every
one of us will surely fall far short of that goal. Each and every one
of us will fail at moral perfection. Because God knows we are only
human, he forgives our failings as long as in our hearts we truly want
to do what is right.

Have you ever lied? Has your mother ever lied? ...your father? ...his
father?

Have you ever met someone who is old enough to speak, who has never
told a lie in their lives? If you have, then you can take their
statement that they haven't lied as being at least the second lie
they've told in their lives. Be very wary of anyone who claims or
implies moral perfection, because in the long run, you will discover
that they are the MOST morally flawed of all.

Harry is not a saint. He's a little kid with very poor upbringing,
poor role models, limited socialization, generally abused who, on the
whole, is far better behaved than the average kid, and has far better
moral character than most of the kids who will read these books. Lying
is rarely shown without consequences or guilt. 

Morality is not about obedience and disobedience, it's about right and
wrong. Was Harry right or wrong to go after the
Socerer's/Philosopher's Stone? Was Harry right or wrong to try and
prevent an evil person from gaining something that would have allowed
their evil to terrorize the world? Was Harry right or wrong to try and
prevent the lose of countless innocent lives? Was he right or wrong to
go out of bounds in an effort to save his best friend (Ron) from being
killed by what he precieved to be a very big vicious dog? Was he right
or wrong to go down to Hagrid's to offer him comfort in a time when he
was certainly distressed and in desperate need of a friend? 

The true moral question is never, did the person obey or disobey; the
question is, did they make the morally greater choice; the morally
better choice. The failing of so much religious literature aimed at
kids is that it portrays an unrealistic Disneyfied version of life,
and kids are not fooled; they know life doesn't work that way and that
discredits the whole message. JKR portrays Harry as a real kid, doing
real kid things, making real kid-real life choice, and sometimes
getting it wrong ... JUST LIKE REAL KIDS. Kids can identify with this
because life is not a Disneyfied Pollyanna cartoon; it is full of
struggle, uncertainly, diffcult choices, and lot and lots of gray
areas where right and wrong are not clearly defined. 

Did you really expect Harry to be perfect, and if you did, do you
think anyone would have believed it when they read it? The judgment of
Harry is not judged by single events view individually, the judgment
of Harry is, in the long run does he make the morally better choices?
Kids aren't going to remember when some small lie that Harry most
likely regrets, they are going to remember when Harry put the greater
good of all at a higher value than his own life. They are going to
remember when he selflessly risked his own life to save Ginny, Ron,
Sirius, Hermione,...

So you need not ask yourself did Harry lie, because of course, he did,
and so did I, and so did you and so did everyone else. You need to ask
yourself if Harry is a good boy. In the long run, does he have good
moral character. I would say the his morally character is better than
virtually all the people who read his story. That's why we see him as
a hero, some one to look up to, some one who inspires us to try to
strive to reach a higher moral plain. In that sense, Harry Potter is
exactly like religion, he inspires us to do better; to be better.

People claim Harry gets away with breaking the rules, even getting
rewarded for breaking the rules, but I have to come back to the fact
that blindly following the rules is not a reflection of high moral
character. Harry gets rewarded not for breaking the rules, but for
breaking the rules because at that moment in time, breaking the rules
was the morally right thing to do. It is his heroic actions, his
selflessness, and his high moral character that are being rewarded. 

Rules are not absolute, we change them all the time, we frequently
change them arbitrarily, we frequently change them for selfserving
reason, or change them unjustly. Many time the rules themselves are
morally wrong. As far as I am concerned blindly obeying the rules is a
failure of moral character. It is the abdication of your own personal
responsibility; the failure to look inside yourself and make moral
judgments base on what you find there. 

I say without hesitation or reservation that in the broader view,
Harry set a moral standard that few of us are able to live up to.


That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

bboy_mn
 








From drednort at alphalink.com.au  Tue Mar 18 10:41:04 2003
From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately)
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 21:41:04 +1100
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] The morality question
In-Reply-To: <00c401c2ed0f$20e5d220$54a3d6d1@nonexuzodpqjy5>
Message-ID: <3E779270.26940.116F633@localhost>

On 18 Mar 2003 at 0:27, jrober4 at bellsouth.net wrote:

> The issue of lying is certain something I have wrestled with.  I don't believe in the
> concept of "the end justifies the means", which seems to be what's involved in the HP
> books.  I mean, if Harry lies so that he can do something that results in something 
> good, that should be okay, right?  Sorry, but I have a problem with that.  I'm not naive 
> about this -- I wrestle with the  question of what would I do if I were hiding Jews in 
> Nazi Germany and soldiers came to my door?  To this day, I don't have the answer to 
> that.  Is this a fair comparison with what happens in the HP books?  I don't know the 
> answer to that, either.  If this is not an old and worn out issue, I would be willing to 
> discuss this with anyone who is interested, who can offer reasoned and intelligent 
> comments about it . . . and who can be respectful of *both* sides of the issue.  I think I 
> have an open mind about discussing this, without imposing my beliefs on anyone but 
> not compromising the moral foundation that is a very important part of who 

Hi,

I can understand the issues you are raising - but I think you need to remember that the 
Harry Potter books aren't there to be a morality play. They're not there to teach children 
morals, they are there to entertain. Now, I personally think that Harry and co are highly 
moral kids in general terms, and I think the books can be useful in raising discussions of 
many moral issues with kids - but that's not what they are there for.

Harry is not a totally moral person. He's not a saint. He's a kid, and he's a kid who has 
had a moderately rotten life. He is a flawed person, like all people are. And his flaws 
make him *real*. Morality (for what of a better term) involves many different areas and 
aspects of a persons life. He would not be a realistic person if he was entirely perfect 
morally. So, basically, if he didn't lie - well, he'd do something else. There will always be 
at least some moral flaws in his character.

Personally, I think Harry is a pretty good example to kids of how to lead a basically 
moral life - not a perfectly moral life - but the basics are there and obvious. And because 
he does have flaws, he's also easier to live up to. Practically perfect people don't make 
good role models for kids, IMHO.

He does lie - and I can understand the desire to see him face consequences for that. 
But... well, frankly, I'd like to think that now, today, I'm a moral person - again, not 
perfect, but fundamentally and basically a moral person. At Harry's age... I was on my 
way to that, but I wasn't anywhere near as far along the path as I'd like to think now. And 
I lied. And *most* of the time, I got away with it. To me, what we see in Harry Potter is 
realistic.
 
> As for the "witchcraft" aspect of it -- I do not find this threatening to my religious 
> beliefs, and I can keep it in context.  However -- at the risk of outraging some of you -- 
> I believe that parents have the right to raise their children as they see fit (as long as it 
> doesn't break basic laws), including those who don't like the witchcraft in the HP books 
> and movies and so deny their children access to them.  Once those children reach the 
> age of 18 and go out on their own -- if they decide to read HP *then*, they are adults 
> and have that right to choose.

And I agree - unfortunately, though, on occasion, the argument has spread well beyond 
what parents want for their own children. I fully support the rights of parents to make 
their own decision, within reason, as to how those children are raised, even if I totally 
disagree with those decisions. But I expect those people to give other parents the same 
respect, and sometimes they haven't. There's a world of difference between deciding 
you will not allow your child to read a given book - and to agitate for its removal from the 
school library.

I also believe there is a real difference between what parents have a fundamental *right* 
to do, and to what they should do. I believe for example that a parent who chooses to 
prevent their 17 year old child reading just about any book is probably making a *very* 
unwise choice - but I would do everything I knew how to do to ensure that the choice 
remains theirs.

Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought
Shaun Hately |webpage: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html
(ISTJ)       |email: drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200

                       "Almighty Ruler of the all;
                 Whose power extends to great and small;
                 Who guides the stars with steadfast law;
                   Whose least creation fills with awe;
                     Oh grant thy mercy and thy grace;
                     To those who venture into space."




From macloudt at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Mar 18 11:43:20 2003
From: macloudt at yahoo.co.uk (Mary Ann)
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 11:43:20 -0000
Subject: Belated birthday greetings...
Message-ID: <b570oo+i5u5@eGroups.com>

:::::Dizzy Elf limps into the room, banging her head against the wall 
with each step.  She carries a large cake in her hands, which have 
been quickly bandaged after having been ironed:::::

Bad, bad Birthday Elf!  I missed yesterday's birthday...on St. 
Patrick's Day to boot.  So let's all wish Jana a happy belated 
birthday, shall we?  Greetings can be sent to the List or to 
george_weasleys_girlfriend at playful.com

I hope you had a lovely day yesterday, Jana, and that the red-haired 
Cabana Boy cake makes up for my bad.

Mary Ann
(the unorganized Elf)




From melclaros at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 18 15:06:45 2003
From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros)
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 15:06:45 -0000
Subject: The morality question
In-Reply-To: <00c401c2ed0f$20e5d220$54a3d6d1@nonexuzodpqjy5>
Message-ID: <b57cm5+ccgs@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, <jrober4 at b...> wrote:

Re: Lying

The issue of the heros lying and breaking rules and getting away with 
it or even being rewarded for it has been discussed quite a bit here 
and you'll find valid arguments on both sides. I happen to be in the 
camp that thinks that although their hearts are in the right place 
they could indeed use some more firm handed direction. I'm also STILL 
waiting for Harry to thank Snape for saving his skin on more than one 
occassion. I won't hold my breath. But hey, as I've said here before 
I make my kids write Thank-you note for gifts so some folks here 
probably think I have a little office right off Snape's dungeon where 
we think up awful, unfair things that kids should have to do to be 
considered civilized.


> 
> As for the "witchcraft" aspect of it -- I do not find this 
threatening to my religious beliefs, and I can keep it in context.  
However -- at the risk of outraging some of you -- I believe that 
parents have the right to raise their children as they see fit (as 
long as it doesn't break basic laws), including those who don't like 
the witchcraft in the HP books and movies and so deny their children 
access to them.  Once those children reach the age of 18 and go out 
on their own -- if they decide to read HP *then*, they are adults and 
have that right to choose.


I absolutely agree with you here HOWEVER I must add that it would 
help immensly if these parents knew what they were doing before they 
made these 'choices'. There are some very ill-informed people out 
there telling outright lies about these books and thus denying a lot 
of people a very enjoyable reading experience. ALSO please note that 
I think that while these people are certainly entitled to raise their 
children the way they see fit and to guide their children's reading 
choices they are NOT entitled to raise MY children and may not deny 
my children access to reading material. Just because a book is on a 
library shelf doesn't mean it must be checked out!

Melpomene





From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Tue Mar 18 15:38:40 2003
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David)
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 15:38:40 -0000
Subject: The morality question
In-Reply-To: <00c401c2ed0f$20e5d220$54a3d6d1@nonexuzodpqjy5>
Message-ID: <b57ei0+lqv1@eGroups.com>

Judy wrote:
 
> I must confess that the fact that Harry, Ron and Hermione lies -- 
with very little, if any, consequences -- still concerns me, 
though.  It seems to me that this is used as a story device so that 
Harry, especially, is in the position to "save the day".  

> The issue of lying is certain something I have wrestled with.  

First let me check: you seem to be concerned particularly with the 
issue of lying, as distinct from rule-breaking, which several of the 
responses to this post have discussed?

Assuming that to be the case, could you cite some specific 
examples?  You see, my take on this is that though Harry and his 
friends do lie and don't consider the consequences, on the whole I 
think the narrative does care about it.  In other words, if a reader 
were to take aspects of the story as providing a role model of some 
sort (I would love to know more about how this works in practice - 
it seems simplistic to me to suppose that children or adults 
think "it's OK for Harry so it must be OK for me"), wouldn't they be 
alive to the idea that Harry or other character is being a bad role 
model at that point in the story?

A classic example, often cited on the main list, is when Harry is 
being interviewed by Snape, and is eventually caught in his 
falsehoods by Lupin.   The overall effect is not, IMO, to make the 
reader feel that lying is a good thing.

This example IMO is not a very good one for your purpose because the 
lying is an incidental to the rule-breaking and risk-taking which is 
the real issue for Snape and Lupin.  Hence my request for examples.

Finally can I suggest you read
www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft0001/reviews/jacobs.html
an article entitled "Harry Potter's Magic", by Alan Jacobs.  I think 
you will find it interesting (thanks to Derannimer for pointing it 
out)

David




From golden_faile at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 18 18:03:59 2003
From: golden_faile at yahoo.com (golden faile)
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 10:03:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Belated birthday greetings...
In-Reply-To: <b570oo+i5u5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20030318180359.39667.qmail@web41105.mail.yahoo.com>


Happy Birthday Jana! Hope it was a good one.
 
Laila
 Mary Ann <macloudt at yahoo.co.uk> wrote::::::Dizzy Elf limps into the room, banging her head against the wall 
with each step.  She carries a large cake in her hands, which have 
been quickly bandaged after having been ironed:::::

Bad, bad Birthday Elf!  I missed yesterday's birthday...on St. 
Patrick's Day to boot.  So let's all wish Jana a happy belated 
birthday, shall we?  Greetings can be sent to the List or to 
george_weasleys_girlfriend at playful.com

I hope you had a lovely day yesterday, Jana, and that the red-haired 
Cabana Boy cake makes up for my bad.

Mary Ann
(the unorganized Elf)


Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
var lrec_target="_top";var lrec_URL = new Array();lrec_URL[1] = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.3079700.4403303.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1707544108:HM/A=1430287/R=0/id=flashurl/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405";var link="javascript:LRECopenWindow(1)";var lrec_flashfile = 'http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/intl_library_of_poetry/yahoo_300x250.swf?clickTAG='+link+'';var lrec_altURL = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.3079700.4403303.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1707544108:HM/A=1430287/R=1/id=altimgurl/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405";var lrec_altimg = "http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/intl_library_of_poetry/yahoo_300x250.gif";var lrec_width = 300;var lrec_height = 250;
________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________

Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the group's Admin Files!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/

Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying!

Is your message...
An announcement of merchandise, news etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements.
Movie-related? Send it to HPFGU-Movie.
Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups.
None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter.
Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com

Unsubscribing? Email HPFGU-OTChatter-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
____________________________________________________________ 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From golden_faile at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 18 18:15:18 2003
From: golden_faile at yahoo.com (golden faile)
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 10:15:18 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: slang and HP - Reckon
In-Reply-To: <b56c4g+nf48@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20030318181518.58170.qmail@web41109.mail.yahoo.com>


I do!!! Older(southern) people tend to say reckon' an 
awful lot( My grandfather's favorite word). I was surprised 
that it was used  so much in the HP series(and that brits 
used the word, I started wondering if it was something that 
Americans picked up from them!). I remember thinking that 
they reminded me of an old people when they used that word.
 
Laila
 
 
 
 "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" <catlady at wicca.net> wrote:
--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Neil Ward" wrote:

  He said it's an Americanism that 
Brits imitate. I pointed out that we didn't know any Americans who 
ever said 'reckon'.



 

"I've been called a lot of things in my 

life," said Draco, looking at the plate. 

"But never a vicious, cold-blooded piece 

of toast." 




Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
var lrec_target="_top";var lrec_URL = new Array();lrec_URL[1] = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.3079700.4403303.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1707544108:HM/A=1430287/R=0/id=flashurl/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405";var link="javascript:LRECopenWindow(1)";var lrec_flashfile = 'http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/intl_library_of_poetry/yahoo_300x250.swf?clickTAG='+link+'';var lrec_altURL = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.3079700.4403303.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1707544108:HM/A=1430287/R=1/id=altimgurl/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405";var lrec_altimg = "http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/intl_library_of_poetry/yahoo_300x250.gif";var lrec_width = 300;var lrec_height = 250;
________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________

Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the group's Admin Files!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/

Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying!

Is your message...
An announcement of merchandise, news etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements.
Movie-related? Send it to HPFGU-Movie.
Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups.
None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter.
Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com

Unsubscribing? Email HPFGU-OTChatter-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
____________________________________________________________ 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From susannahlm at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 18 18:33:43 2003
From: susannahlm at yahoo.com (derannimer)
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 18:33:43 -0000
Subject: The Morality Question
Message-ID: <b57oq7+bhd3@eGroups.com>

Judy wrote: 

>I mean, if Harry lies so that he can do something
>that results in something good, that should be okay, right? Sorry, 
>but I have
>a problem with that. I'm not naive about this -- I wrestle with the 
>question
>of what would I do if I were hiding Jews in Nazi Germany and 
>soldiers came to
>my door? To this day, I don't have the answer to that.

If it helps, consider that the Christian theologian Dietrich 
Bonhoeffeur, whose name I am probably spelling wrong, was involved in 
an attempt to assassinate Adolf Hitler; in the normal run of life, 
assassination would surely be regarded as worse than lies. 

Consider also that in a fallen and tragic world, very few questions 
may be resolved into black and white. Most of them come in shades of 
grey; you must sometimes choose the answer that is the least wrong, 
because there is *no* answer that is purely right. 

I don't really have a problem with Harry's lies. 

(Anyway, Harry *does* feel bad about his lies, and I agree with what 
Steve wrote: Harry doesn't lie all that much, and he generally does 
it for truly exemplary purposes.)

Also, in re another point, Judy wrote:

>As for the "witchcraft" aspect of it -- I do not find this 
>threatening to my religious beliefs, and I can keep it in context. 
>However -- at the risk of outraging some of you -- I believe that 
>parents have the right to raise their children as they see fit (as 
>long as it doesn't break basic laws), including those who don't like 
>the witchcraft in the HP books and movies and so deny their children 
>access to them. Once those children reach the age of 18 and go out 
>on their own -- if they decide to read HP *then*, they are adults 
>and have that right to choose.

(Aww, you're not going to outrage any of us. We're pretty sensible 
people, on the whole.) 

And Mel wrote: 

>ALSO please note that I think that while these people are certainly 
>entitled to raise their children the way they see fit and to guide 
>their children's reading choices they are NOT entitled to raise MY 
>children and may not deny my children access to reading material. 
>Just because a book is on a library shelf doesn't mean it must be 
>checked out!

Yeah. You know what, though? I think--and I've never really thought 
about this before, but I think I might be right here--I think that a 
lot of parents don't feel that they have that much control over their 
kids. I think that they feel that if something is on the shelves, 
then it *will* be checked out, and that they will not be able to stop 
their kids from reading it. I think a lot of not terribly *effectual* 
parents try to ban the books, hoping that the school district will do 
their job for them. 

I think a lot of people also simply feel that the books are Evil With 
a Capital E and so *no one* should be exposed to them, whether that 
person can see the Evil of the books or not. The same way that you're 
not legally permitted to commit murder, whether you personally can 
see if it's evil or not. Which is a principle that I think most of us 
would agree with, in some instances at any rate. The question would 
be whether 

A: there was anything wrong with the books in the first place (no)

and 

B: whether the hypothetical thing that was wrong with them was the 
*kind* of wrong thing that ought to lie within the jurisdiction of 
the State (no)



Derannimer (who thinks, along with--she believes--St. Augustine, that 
no one should be compelled to accept the faith against their will; 
and who feels considerably more sympathetic towards the first group 
of book-banning parents than towards the second one)




From yalithb223 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 18 19:06:13 2003
From: yalithb223 at yahoo.com (yalithb223)
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 19:06:13 -0000
Subject: The morality question
In-Reply-To: <b57cm5+ccgs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b57qn5+54uv@eGroups.com>

jrober4 said: 
> > As for the "witchcraft" aspect of it -- I do not find this 
> threatening to my religious beliefs, and I can keep it in context.  
> However -- at the risk of outraging some of you -- I believe that 
> parents have the right to raise their children as they see fit (as 
> long as it doesn't break basic laws), including those who don'tlike 
> the witchcraft in the HP books and movies and so deny theirchildren 
> access to them.  Once those children reach the age of 18 and go out 
> on their own -- if they decide to read HP *then*, they are adults 
and have that right to choose.

and Melpomene said:
> I absolutely agree with you here HOWEVER I must add that it would 
> help immensly if these parents knew what they were doing before 
> they made these 'choices'. There are some very ill-informed people 
> out there telling outright lies about these books and thus denying 
> a lot of people a very enjoyable reading experience. ALSO please 
> note that I think that while these people are certainly entitled to 
> raise their children the way they see fit and to guide their 
> children's reading choices they are NOT entitled to raise MY 
> children and may not deny my children access to reading material. 
> Just because a book is on a library shelf doesn't mean it must be 
> checked out!


Me:  I agree with both of you.  But the issue really is people's 
misunderstanding of the books entirely.  I have been interviewing all 
my Christian friends (among whom I'm now known as the HP nut) about 
the things they have heard or believe about the books.  One of them 
says the spells are real spells, that do real magic.  Umm, no.  I can 
point at my sister and say Rictusempra all day and there is no way 
she's going to have a tickle fit.  And no matter how many times I say 
Alohomora, I still locked my keys in my car and have to call AAA.  
Yes there are some factual (mythological) items in the stories.  Such 
as the Philosopher's (Sorcerer's) Stone hails from Medieval 
alchemists.  But I find nothing about consorting with the devil or 
any other such nonsense.  

Personally I don't believe in magic and fortune telling.  And I think 
the Bible warns against it only because it was a way of defrauding 
people.  (Much like Ms. Cleo today).  You give me a thousand dollars 
and I'll tell you what's going to happen to you or I'll cure your 
dying child.   

Some people think it's brainwashing children into entering witchcraft 
and cults.  I find no religious references in the HP books.  Nothing 
JKR writes contradicts my religious beliefs in any way. 

People are mainly just ignorant of the truth behind these books. They 
need to read them before they decide whether or not they are 
appropriate for their own children and I will do the same.  I as a 
child was forbidden to watch certain cartoons, and I didn't do it out 
of respect for my parents.  They gave me a logical reason for not 
being able to watch it, and I understand now (even if not then) why.  

And now I must leave having put in my zillion knuts worth
Jessica I 
The HP Knut!




From Ali at zymurgy.org  Tue Mar 18 19:20:05 2003
From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali)
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 19:20:05 -0000
Subject: slang and HP  was re  Reckon
In-Reply-To: <b55g21+q43u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b57rh5+hdvr@eGroups.com>

Bboy muses about UK/US language differences:-

 
 <<<using AS instead of SINCE (USA: Since it was getting late, we... 
UK: As it was getting late, we...)
 
 Using AS WELL instead of TOO (UK:I like chocolate as well. USA: I 
like chocolate too.)>>>

Both since and too could also be used in "Brit speak" without anyone 
thinking that the speaker was speaking strangely, although "as well" 
is definitely more common.
 
>>> garden instead of yard or lawn>>>

Here you confuse me. A garden is not the same as a lawn. I have a 
lawn in my garden. A lawn is the grass area. What do you mean by a 
lawn?

>>> marks instead of grades>>>

We use both marks and grades, but they mean different things. For 
example, an exam could be marked out of 100, but anyone who achieved 
more than 70% would get a grade "A". Our exams, O'Levels, GCSEs, 
A'Levels etc are all graded. Certainly in my generation (cough, 
splutters "30 somethings"), we were never told what marks we got in 
O'Levels etc only the grades. 

In what way are the words used in the US?

<<< pudding instead of desert, etc...>>>

That is a funny one, as I seem to remember most people 
calling "puddings", "desserts" when I was growing up. I do remember 
being told though that the "proper" word was "pudding". Certainly 
now "pudding" is the favourite.

 
>>> One last slang question, how promenent is the term 'Luv' in
 contemporary British language? Based on old movies and Telly shows,
 there was a time when everybody called everybody 'Luv'. "Hey luv, 
pass the salt.", "Luv, could you bring us another round of ales?", 
etc...>>>

I know that this question has already been covered, but I just wanted 
to throw my own use of it into the discussion. I grew up not liking 
the word. Apart from when it was clearly a collaquialism - which it 
often was in the part of London I come from, "Luv" seemed to me to be 
slightly patronizing. However, since I've had kids, I have caught 
myself using it quite alot, but only ever to kids.

Ali






From yalithb223 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 18 19:39:03 2003
From: yalithb223 at yahoo.com (yalithb223)
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 19:39:03 -0000
Subject: slang and HP  was re  Reckon
In-Reply-To: <b57rh5+hdvr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b57skn+scr4@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Ali" <Ali at z...> wrote:
Ali writes:
> Bboy muses about UK/US language differences:-
> 

>  
> >>> garden instead of yard or lawn>>>
> 
> Here you confuse me. A garden is not the same as a lawn. I have a 
> lawn in my garden. A lawn is the grass area. What do you mean by a 
> lawn?

A lawn is typically all of the land (usually containing grass) that 
surrounds a house or building.  We can have a garden with flowers or 
veggetables on our lawn.  But the entire property (excluding the 
buildings) is termed lawn.

> >>> marks instead of grades>>>
> 
> We use both marks and grades, but they mean different things. For 
> example, an exam could be marked out of 100, but anyone who 
achieved 
> more than 70% would get a grade "A". Our exams, O'Levels, GCSEs, 
> A'Levels etc are all graded. Certainly in my generation (cough, 
> splutters "30 somethings"), we were never told what marks we got in 
> O'Levels etc only the grades. 
> 
> In what way are the words used in the US?

We don't really use the term "marks".  More or less we refer to 
everything as grades, both the percentage and the letter grade A, B, 
C, etc.

Jessica I.




From charisjulia at hotmail.com  Tue Mar 18 20:06:24 2003
From: charisjulia at hotmail.com (charisjulia)
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 20:06:24 -0000
Subject: slang and HP - Reckon
In-Reply-To: <3E7645F2.000001.55553@monica>
Message-ID: <b57u80+pqu2@eGroups.com>

Kathryn wrote about the word "Luv":
 
>  It tends to be regional. It's very common in and around London, 
where I
> live. (Also annoying as anything, especially when used at the end 
of *every*
> sentence). Where i went to university in the Midlands they tended 
to use
> duck instead (because no one minds being compared to a waddling, 
web-footed
> bird!). Newcastle/Durham way they use pet. Ummm - running dry here, 
my
> mother's ex-boss was from the West Country and he used to refer to 
everyone
> (customers, staff, his bosses, absolutely everyone) as 'my lover'.
>

My mother (native Sheffielder) used to call my sister and 
me "chicken" when we were small. Or, if she was feeling especially 
affectionate, "chicken--licken". But never in public, no -- not after 
the time a colleague over-heard her when she was picking me up from 
the cr?che: 

"You call your child a * what*?!"

But then my father still calls my sister "mparmpounaki", which 
means "little red mullet", so there you go.

Charis Julia





From joym999 at aol.com  Tue Mar 18 20:36:48 2003
From: joym999 at aol.com (joywitch_m_curmudgeon)
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 20:36:48 -0000
Subject: The morality question
In-Reply-To: <00c401c2ed0f$20e5d220$54a3d6d1@nonexuzodpqjy5>
Message-ID: <b58010+ol06@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, <jrober4 at b...> wrote:

> The issue of lying is certain something I have wrestled with.  I 
don't believe in the concept of "the end justifies the means", which 
seems to be what's involved in the HP books.  I mean, if Harry lies 
so that he can do something that results in something good, that 
should be okay, right?  Sorry, but I have a problem with that.  I'm 
not naive about this -- I wrestle with the  question of what would I 
do if I were hiding Jews in Nazi Germany and soldiers came to my 
door?  To this day, I don't have the answer to that.  

I agree with the comments that bboy and Mel and others have made in 
response to Judy's post (welcome, Judy, and thanks for sharing your 
concerns) so I'll just comment on one small part of Judy's post.

It seems to me that the above example is just not a moral problem.  
What right thinking person *wouldn't* lie to protect the life of an 
innocent person?  How could it possibly be immoral to lie and 
say "No, sir, Mr. Nazi, no Jews here."?   OTOH, how could it possibly 
be moral to say, "Yes, Mr. Nazi, I cannot tell a lie, here's a bunch 
of Jews, take them to the concentration camp now."?  I just can't 
believe that there's any decent person in the world who would 
question what the moral decision is here.

Of course, there are very few situations in which the more moral 
choice is obvious, which is why we need to discuss issues, especially 
with our children, such as "When is it OK to lie?" and why we need to 
not blindly follow "the rules."

--Joywitch




From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 18 20:42:36 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 20:42:36 -0000
Subject: slang and HP  was re  Reckon
In-Reply-To: <b57rh5+hdvr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b580bt+tl6p@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Ali" <Ali at z...> wrote:
> Bboy muses about UK/US language differences:-
> 
bboy_mn with a minor comment:
'As well' vs 'too', I alway think it is sooo cool when I can manage to
work 'as well' into a sentence.


>  
> >>> garden instead of yard or lawn>>>
> 
> Here you confuse me. A garden is not the same as a lawn. I have a 
> lawn in my garden. A lawn is the grass area. What do you mean by a 
> lawn?
> 

bboy_mn:
This came up once before. Some Brit or Brit-like person couldn't see
the logic in it. A garden is where you grow things and grass is
something you grow, so naturally it is in the garden. 

In the USA, lawn generally refers exclusively to grass. When you hear
the pharse, 'They had beautiful lawns and gardens'; it means they had
well manicured grass and a nice flower/vegetable/herb garden.

Yard has more applied meanings than lawn. Yard frequently refers to
all the developed land around an owner's house. In the case of a farm
'yard', it means the buildings like machine sheds and barns, as well
as the drive up (called a driveway here), the parking and general
driving area, the lawn, and the farm house, but usually doesn't
include the woods that surround the house. Sometimes 'yard' will
simply refer to the paved or gravel areas like the driveway, and the
general parking and driving areas. 

Yard and lawn in the city are frequently interchangable and mean the
same thing because for a city house there is no more than a fraction
of a percent difference between what constitutes one or the other.

To an American (USA), garden means vegetables, flowers, and herbs;
anything with cultivated grass is a lawn.
- - - - - - - - - -

> 
> <<< pudding instead of desert, etc...>>>
> 
> That is a funny one, as I seem to remember most people 
> calling "puddings", "desserts" when I was growing up. I do remember 
> being told though that the "proper" word was "pudding". Certainly 
> now "pudding" is the favourite.
> 
> ...edited...
> 
> Ali

bboy_mn:
This is another word I find very confusing because there is something
specifically called pudding which is a very thick creamy milk based
desert that resembles custard but is made slightly different.

I was reading at a website on British slang, although it was really
about the differences between British and American, and it said that
waffles would generally be referred to as pudding. That would imply
that if you asked someone what the had for breakfast or lunch and they
said 'pudding' it could be cake, ice cream, or anyone of a long list
of other deserts, or it could indeed not even be a desert at all; it
could be waffles (how about pancakes?). How can you understand what
people are saying when a word is used in such an all encompassing way?

Biscuit is another one. A biscuit is a cookie or a cracker which are
two very different foods used for very different purposed, although
they do resemble each other in construction. So if someone had soup
and buscuits for lunch, did they have crackers in their soup or did
they have soup and then have cookies for their 'pudding'. ...so confusing.

Just a few thoughts.

bboy_mn










From s_ings at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 18 21:33:14 2003
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 16:33:14 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: slang and HP - Reckon
In-Reply-To: <006e01c2ece0$c09a1cb0$3b9ccdd1@RVotaw>
Message-ID: <20030318213314.39786.qmail@web41115.mail.yahoo.com>

 --- Richelle Votaw <rvotaw at i-55.com> wrote:
 > Neil wrote:
> 
> > It hadn't occurred to me that a word like 'reckon'
> would seem odd to 
> > people outside Britain.  No wonder I got some
> funny looks when I was 
> > in New York, recently.
> 
> I use "reckon" all the time, and I'm not in Britain.
>  Or Texas. :)  I suppose y'all are going to tell me
> that Louisiana's close enough to Texas to count?
> (Though some Texans would argue that point.) 
> Anyway, I guess it's just a regional thing, though
> before HP I'd have never imagined they'd say
> "reckon" in the UK.  I don't suppose they say y'all,
> though . . . That's the one I get funny looks for
> when I'm in New York. :)
> 
I use "reckon' all the time, as well. And I'm not in
Britain or Texas either. Not even in the US, so can't
argue the 'close to Texas' bit. *And* I say y'all. :-D

MMcK wrote:

 The word "reckon" didn't stand out to me at all.
However, most Canadians would use "think" instead. 

Must beg to differ on that one. It really does depend
where in Canada you live. 'Reckon' is very commonly
used in the Maritimes. Of course the Maritimes are an
entity of their own, the place where 'boughten bread'
refers to anything you had to go out and pay for
instead of making at home. And things that are
'boughten' are considered just a little less... well,
just not as good as the homemade stuff. :)

Sheryll, who does, indeed, make her own bread every
few days

=====
"We need to be united and strong. We'll have losses and scares, sure. And you'll be there for each other, helping each other through the bad times."
 blpurdom - Harry Potter and the Psychic Serpent, Chapter 26

______________________________________________________________________ 
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca



From lupinesque at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 18 22:03:03 2003
From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 22:03:03 -0000
Subject: "Muggle" makes good!
In-Reply-To: <b4qi35+31ie@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b5852n+dvo6@eGroups.com>

Quite some time ago, David wrote:

 
> > Again, I am waiting for the rise of the word Muggle to describe 
> > those not in the know or not able to follow a technical subject, 
> > e.g. for civil servants to describe the public as 'the Muggles'.  
I 
> > haven't heard it yet, but it's so obvious I feel it's got to 
happen.

>From your mouth to the OED's ears.  "Muggle" in the JKR sense, 
including this figurative meaning, is one of the newest crop to be 
OED-approved:

http://dictionary.oed.com/public/help/Dict/Quarterly/0303.htm

If you don't subscribe to the online OED, despair not.  The 
definition is graciously quoted by a The Leaky Cauldron 
reader/contributor named George.  See today's entry at 

www.the-leaky-cauldron.org

Amy




From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 18 22:32:50 2003
From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent)
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 22:32:50 -0000
Subject: The morality question
In-Reply-To: <b56noi+dph1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b586qi+p5kb@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <bboy_mn at y...> wrote:
> JKR portrays Harry as a real kid, doing
> real kid things, making real kid-real life choice, and sometimes
> getting it wrong ... JUST LIKE REAL KIDS. Kids can identify with 
> this because life is not a Disneyfied Pollyanna cartoon; it is 
> full of struggle, uncertainly, diffcult choices, and lot and lots 
> of gray areas where right and wrong are not clearly defined. 

I think you've hit on one of the most important aspects of the 
criticism of Harry's lying, and it prompts me to ask an admittedly 
hypothetical question, as the critics, by and large, are probably 
not reading this: What ARE you approving for your children's 
reading?  

I cannot, for the life of me, think of a piece of children's 
literature that does not have a protagonist who does not err in some 
way.  It is precisely the flawed hero or wayward heroine who makes a 
story interesting, frankly, and it is in feeling that he or she is 
experiencing that character's life, flaws and all, that a reader may 
learn something about morality, in the long run.  

If one considers a number of well-loved children's books (THERE BE 
SPOILERS HERE FOR ANYONE WHO HASN'T READ THE BOOKS CITED) one will 
have a difficult time finding a perfect protagonist and an all-too-
easy time sniffing out the "sins" of the main characters.

The Secret Garden: What can I say?  Mary Lennox is a pill, and no 
one likes her.  She's arrogant, obnoxious, disrespectful and lies 
about going into the garden.  She breaks a number of the rules of 
the house in which she lives.  I don't hear about legions of parents 
banding together to yank this book from shelves, even though Mary 
would be an appalling role model throughout much of the book.

The Little House Books: While Laura usually does not lie and is in 
fact almost creepily obedient to her parents, we are privy to her 
thoughts a number of times when she wants to hit her sister, she 
covets things that belong to others and has rather unkind thoughts 
about numerous people, even students in her classes, after she 
becomes a teacher.  While her actions are by and large 
unimpeachable, the reader knows that she has sinned in her heart.  
(Laura gets to join the "Jimmy Carter Club" of sinners.)

A Wrinkle in Time and sequels: There are a number of child 
protagonists in these books who lose their temper, lie, give in to 
temptation of various sorts and in general behave very similarly to 
Harry, Ron and Hermione, for very similar reasons.  Madeleine 
L'Engle is often lauded for the Christian content of her books, 
despite the fact that they also contain magic.  I don't hear about 
anyone trying to ban her books because her characters commit the 
above sins.

James and the Giant Peach/Matilda: It might not be fair to cite 
anything by Roald Dahl, since there are loads of parents out there 
who dislike his books for children on principle.  However, I think 
it's particularly pertinent, since we know that JKR likes Dahl, and 
since it's not difficult to see her homage to Dahl in things like 
her descriptions of the Dursleys (think Aunt Spiker and Aunt 
Sponge).  James rejoices in a giant peach rolling over his 
disgusting aunts.  Matilda gets revenge on her father, mother and 
headmistress; if a 'real' child did the same things, she'd be put in 
a juvenile facility and assumed to be on her way to a life of 
crime.  In contrast, when confronted with the opportunity to hurt 
(even if he didn't know how to kill) Sirius, the man he thought 
killed his parents, Harry couldn't do it, and even the twins' attack 
on Dudley (Ton-Tongue Toffee) is treated as a very serious offense 
by their parents.  How can anyone say there's a moral problem with 
the HP books?

When the Sad One Comes to Stay: I really, really strongly dislike 
the protagonist in this book (I can't bring myself to call her a 
heroine), I think that in the end she does something that is morally 
wrong (no punishment, either) and I think that she will probably 
have a terrible, unhappy life because of it.  Am I afraid that my 
children could possibly emulate this character and also wind up 
dreadfully unhappy, and make others unhappy?  You bet.  And that's 
exactly why I can't wait for my kids to be mature enough to read 
it.  (I think that regardless of reading level, a kid would need to 
be eleven or twelve to have the EMOTIONAL maturity to understand 
what's going on.)  I would look on this as an opportunity to talk to 
my kids about why what the character did was wrong, and to discuss 
the possible outcomes of her actions.  This is a very strong, 
emotionally challenging book that I could lock away and forbid my 
kids to read, but that would just be a way to avoid the issues in 
the book.  To say that this book's protagonist is flawed is really 
putting it lightly.

I can think of many more children's books in which the characters 
are less than perfect and none, with the possible exception of Ann 
of Green Gables, in which the main character borders on absolute (if 
unrealistic) moral perfection.  The fact that some people claim that 
they object to the HP books on a moral basis, citing Harry's lying, 
strikes me as just an invented excuse to bash books that they 
dislike for other reasons, such as the witchcraft, or possibly just 
because the books are so popular and they are jealous of JKR.  It's 
happened before.  These folks must not be having their kids read 
anything at all; even the Bible has people doing terrible things and 
not being punished for it.   

As for deciding what kids can and cannot read, I have to say that I 
disagree very, very strongly with this.  Personally I provide some 
guidance for my kids, as far as what I think they might like, 
because I know them, but I've never forbidden them to read anything 
and I never will.  If something is morally challenging to me that's 
probably an even better argument for why my kid should read it--and 
perhaps why I should read it, too.  (See "When the Sad One Comes to 
Stay," above.)  

For the most part, kids don't read things for which they're not 
ready.  My daughter wasn't ready to read Prisoner of Azkaban for a 
while because the depiction of the dementor on the American dust-
jacket was a bit unnerving to her.  And if my son wanted to read a 
horror novel of some sort at the age of ten, I'd probably warn him 
that he could have nightmares from it.  You probably couldn't pay my 
kids to read a book with sex in it at their current ages; when they 
feel comfortable reading that material, I daresay they'll be old 
enough for it.  Reading and doing are hardly the same thing.  Many 
thrilling spy novels, for instance, have sex in them, but I doubt 
that reading them will induce a teenager either to become a spy or 
have sex.  It's just an escape.

But WARNING kids about content that might scare or disconcert them 
is one thing--not wanting to expose them to certain ideas is 
another, and that's what folks are trying to do who FORBID kids to 
read the HP books.  I'm really not sure what they're scared of, 
unless it's that their kids might learn to think for themselves.  
That's the real sin that Harry commits, IMO.  He doesn't take 
everything at face-value, in the Muggle or wizarding world.  He has 
an inner compass upon which he relies to help him make moral 
decisions, not necessarily listening to authority figures (such as 
Snape in the Shrieking Shack).  

Given the current climate of world politics, I'd say we need a lot 
more Harrys, and I will come out as a complete subversive (oh, 
THERE'S a shock!) and say that I hope that every kid whose parents 
have forbidden the HP books to him or her is sneaking around and 
reading them anyway (they probably are--"forbidden fruit" and all).  
OR those parents might read the books WITH their kids and discuss 
the moral issues they find disturbing in them.  I think they're 
losing a great opportunity for a learning and bonding time with 
their kids by just forbidding their kids to read them instead of 
discussing issues that are clearly important to them.

--Barb

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent
http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb


 




From lynntownsend100 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 19 00:11:52 2003
From: lynntownsend100 at yahoo.com (Lynn)
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 16:11:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Parody of 2nd Harry potter movie
Message-ID: <20030319001152.19733.qmail@web41406.mail.yahoo.com>


Here's something that I got from another HP group that I
thought was really funny,but others might not have seen.
Enjoy!(I hope I'm posting this to the right group...)
-Lynn T
_____________________________________________________
Harry Potter and the Chanber of Secrets: The Readers Digest Edition

We find our hero Harry back in the evil house on Privet Drive 
waiting for school to begin again so he can get into trouble again, 
break a thousand school rules and win a thousand points because of 
it.

Uncle Vernon: You did something wrong again, you're never going back 
to school!

Harry: Yes I am

UV: No you're not

Harry: Yes I am

UV: No you're not, I'm locking you in your room

Harry: Well I don't really care because my friends are better than 
you and we have a flying car!

UV: NOOOOO

Harry: By loser!

Scene 2

*CRASH*

Ron: Harry how will we ever get to school when that psycho elf man 
that looks like the Russian president won't let us get to the train 
that we have to get to by running through a wall and amazingly no 
one notices?

Harry: I don't know we couldn't possibly send Hedwig the owl with a 
message that we can't get through

Ron: No of course not that would make too much sense. Wait I know, 
let's steal my dad's flying car that I'm not old enough to drive and 
fly it up in the air and hope no one will see that either.

Harry: Is there candy in the glove box?

Ron: Naturally

Harry: Lets go!

Scene 3

Harry: Oh no, it's that stupid guy from the cover of all our books 
pretending he knows how to figtht with that wand he can't even hang 
onto. I hope he and Snape kill each other.

Snape: Potter, I hate you because I hated your dad because he saved 
my life, which is why I tried to save your life last year and why I 
pick on you all the time because I hate you so much I saved you, 
come up here so that Malfoy can throw a big snake at you.

Malfoy: serpen-something-or-other

Harry: hiss hiss, slither slither please oh please run over to 
Justin but don't eat him okay

Snake: Who's Justin?

Harry: I don't know, he just appeared

Snake: whatever (*hiss hiss, I will get you*)

Hermione: Oh no Harry, you can talk to snakes and you're hearing 
voices no one else can hear and no one else understands snakes but 
you couldn't possibly be hearing a snake in the castle. This is bad, 
everyone will think you're attacking people!

Harry: but I'm not

Ron: Maybe you are

(Dun Dun Dun!)

Scene 4

Harry: Dumbledore, I know I was found with every victim and that I 
can talk to the giant snake that's freezing them all and that your 
bird just blew up while I was alone with it but I swear I didn't do 
it and I'd never lie to you.

Dumbledore: I know you didn't do it Harry, is there anything else 
you should tell me

Harry: (looks at the ground thinking of all the rules he's currently 
breaking) No sir

Dumbledore: and you never lie

Scene 5

Ron: why are we drinking this stuff again?

Hermione: So we can find out who's setting the giant monster on the 
students

Ron: but I thought Harry was doing it

Hermione: Oh yea, because the monsters a big...but wait I'm not 
suppose to know that yet because I'm the only one here smart enought 
to figure it out. I'm going to leave now and find out I'm right 
instead of telling you what I think it is so that when I get 
attacked you guys won't know anything.

Ron: Okay, go to the library since that's where you live. And here, 
you better take this mirror to defend yourself

Hermione: Since when does a mirror save you from a monster?

Ron: How should I know, you're the smart one

Scene 6

Harry: I know Ron, now that Hermione is frozen and didn't tell us 
everything lets go see the giant yucky man-eatting spiders and see 
what they can tell us before they eat us

Ron: I hate spiders but okay

Harry: I know, let's take Hagrid's whimpy dog to protect us

(*SCREAMS, BARKS, scurrying spider legs, clicking pincers, horn of a 
car)

Ron: Come to think of it I don't think following spiders was I good 
idea, good thing the flying car with a mind of it's own came and 
beat up the spiders for us.

Harry: Hey Ron, I just figured out that we've wasted this whole year 
trying to find the answers that were right there in the girls 
bathroom with us all along

Ron: we were in a girls bathroom! No wonder Percy yelled at us

Harry: That weird ghost in there that's in love with me must know 
all the answers

Ron: Why

Harry: I don't know, it just makes sense

Ron: Whatever

Scene 7: 

Ron: Harry, my little sister has been taken into the bottomless 
depths of the bathroom sinks where that Hobbit guy lost that evil 
ring

Harry: What?

Ron: never mind, we have to go catch that stupid teacher and make 
come with us

Harry: why? he's stupid, why don't we just let him leave?

Ron: I don't know

Harry: Whatever

Scene 7

Harry: Ron I fought the giant snake and even though I'm only 12 
years old I was able to slay him with a giant sword I pulled out of 
that old singing hat, guess what, your sister was the bad guy but 
she blames it all on a book

Ron: I told you books are bad

Harry: now lets go tell Dumbledore about all the rules we broke and 
collect our points and special awards

Ron: cool, maybe people will pay attention to me now

Harry: Probably not, you may have help save the world 2 years in a 
row but Percy got good grades so everyone will still love him more

Ron: figures

Harry: Hey that's Malfoys dad, the one who gave your sister that 
evil book that made her set the giant snake on the students, I know 
let's give it back to him

Ron: isn't that kind of dumb

Harry: it's okay, it's got a poisonous tooth stuck in it and my old 
sock wrapped around it, if it has any power left it's only the power 
to make you pass out if you breath in the fumes

Ron: why a sock

Harry: to free the elf guy that looks like that Russian dude that 
caused us so much trouble this year

Ron: if he caused us trouble why do we want to free him

Harry: becasue that's what heros do

Ron: whatever

Scene 8

Harry: Hooray, because I broke all the school rules again we win the 
House Cup again, and here comes Hagrid

Ron: Where was he

Harry: some prizon for wizards that's guarded by those guys that try 
to take that evil ring from that hobbit dude

Ron: I thought you said that was the wrong movie

Harry: It is but those guys are everywhere

Ron: Here comes Hermione, she's been unfrozen, Uh oh, what do I do? 
I love her but I don't know it yet

Hermione: Oh Harry (Gives him a huge bear hug) You did it even 
though I knew everything but didn't tell you (thinks "Oh Ron, I love 
you so much but I can't tell you because I can't read how in a book)

Ron: Don't worry I'll realize I love you later when you fall for 
that big tough famous Quidditch player

Harry: Oh yeah, Quidditch, my favorite sport, it's like basketball 
on broomsticks

Ron: What's basketball?

Harry: never mind

Ron: whatever

The end

Okay so that sucked, but I tried! LOL!
AJ

_______________________________________________________



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From rvotaw at i-55.com  Wed Mar 19 02:03:55 2003
From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw)
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 20:03:55 -0600
Subject: HP cross stitch question
Message-ID: <013001c2edbb$ccbed180$659dcdd1@RVotaw>

I've just bought a magazine from the UK called Quick & Easy Cross Stitch, from January 2002.  It has a cross stitch pattern for Daniel/Harry, one of the first publicity photos done.  It doesn't show a picture of the completed cross stitch, so I'm curious as to how it will turn out.  Has anyone heard/seen/done one of these?

Richelle


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From jrober4 at bellsouth.net  Wed Mar 19 05:19:47 2003
From: jrober4 at bellsouth.net (jrober4 at bellsouth.net)
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 00:19:47 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: The morality question
References: <b57cm5+ccgs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <009f01c2edd7$29f6d8f0$7ea1d6d1@nonexuzodpqjy5>

Melpomene wrote:

Re: Lying

The issue of the heros lying and breaking rules and getting away with 
it or even being rewarded for it has been discussed quite a bit here 
and you'll find valid arguments on both sides. I happen to be in the 
camp that thinks that although their hearts are in the right place 
they could indeed use some more firm handed direction. I'm also STILL 
waiting for Harry to thank Snape for saving his skin on more than one 
occassion. I won't hold my breath. But hey, as I've said here before 
I make my kids write Thank-you note for gifts so some folks here 
probably think I have a little office right off Snape's dungeon where 
we think up awful, unfair things that kids should have to do to be 
considered civilized.


Me:
Though it's asking a *lot* to expect Harry to thank Snape, I am of the opinion that common courtesy is a *good* thing to teach children . . . and is decidedly lacking in much of the young generation of today (I work for a movie theater and see a lot of children as customers, so I am in a position to comment about this).  But,  Harry is only human, and it would be torture for *me* to be nice to someone like Snape.  I think it's quite amazing how well-behaved he is, and I have to believe that this is a legacy of his parents.  Hope that makes sense.  


> 
> I absolutely agree with you here HOWEVER I must add that it would 
help immensly if these parents knew what they were doing before they 
made these 'choices'. There are some very ill-informed people out 
there telling outright lies about these books and thus denying a lot 
of people a very enjoyable reading experience. ALSO please note that 
I think that while these people are certainly entitled to raise their 
children the way they see fit and to guide their children's reading 
choices they are NOT entitled to raise MY children and may not deny 
my children access to reading material. Just because a book is on a 
library shelf doesn't mean it must be checked out!


Me:  I will grant you that during the height of the controversy over HP, there were some anti-HP rantings that were over the top, and not constructive in putting the point across that the more reasoned in their objections were trying to express.  You are certainly right that the "anti" crowd have no right to make these choices for *you* or any parents who think it is okay for their children to read HP.  God gave us a free will for a *reason*.  

Judy




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From jrober4 at bellsouth.net  Wed Mar 19 05:47:35 2003
From: jrober4 at bellsouth.net (jrober4 at bellsouth.net)
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 00:47:35 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: The morality question
References: <b57qn5+54uv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00ae01c2eddb$0bb3f900$7ea1d6d1@nonexuzodpqjy5>

Jessica said:
But the issue really is people's 
misunderstanding of the books entirely.  I have been interviewing all 
my Christian friends (among whom I'm now known as the HP nut) about 
the things they have heard or believe about the books.  One of them 
says the spells are real spells, that do real magic.  Umm, no.  I can 
point at my sister and say Rictusempra all day and there is no way 
she's going to have a tickle fit.  And no matter how many times I say 
Alohomora, I still locked my keys in my car and have to call AAA.  


Me:
You make a good point here.  I seem to recall this kind of thing being said during the big controversy, and can understand why there would be those who find such an objection ridiculous. 


Jessica said:
Personally, I don't believe in magic and fortune telling.  And I think the Bible warns against it only because it was a way of defrauding people.  (Much like Ms. Cleo today).  


Me:
Having at one time been in the kind of church that believes the Bible in such a way that playing around with "witchcraft" in any way is considered wrong, I understand why they think that way.  I don't think that way now, but I respect their right to believe this way, and believe the world is big enough for all of us.  Hopefully, the time will never come when we all are denied the freedom of choice and thought.  

Personally, I think those so-called "psychics" do nothing except take advantage of lonely and desparate people (I know, because I was *stupid* enough to be that desparate at one time).  This kind of thing gives real spirituality a bad name, and I hope everyone will wise up and make such things unprofitable so that they will go away.  

Judy




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From jrober4 at bellsouth.net  Wed Mar 19 06:12:58 2003
From: jrober4 at bellsouth.net (jrober4 at bellsouth.net)
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 01:12:58 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: The morality question
References: <b586qi+p5kb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00b901c2edde$97fba810$7ea1d6d1@nonexuzodpqjy5>

Barb said:
I think you've hit on one of the most important aspects of the 
criticism of Harry's lying, and it prompts me to ask an admittedly 
hypothetical question, as the critics, by and large, are probably 
not reading this: What ARE you approving for your children's 
reading?  



Me:
Well, as I am 49, single with no children, I have never been in the position to make this choice, and I never will be now because of my age.  I will grant you that there aren't any books that can be considered "pure", and the books I read when I was a kid certainly weren't (my favorites were by Walter Farley and an author named Brooks who did a series of books that involved a pig named Freddie [couldn't find this listed at Amazon.com. unfortunately].  So, I guess what it comes down to is parents doing the best they can, according to what they believe, monitor what their children read without "suffocating" them . . . and then finding a way to trust their children to be properly discerning in what they read when the time comes.  

Judy




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From prittylina at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 19 06:36:25 2003
From: prittylina at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Lina?=)
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 06:36:25 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: slang and HP - Reckon
In-Reply-To: <1048013685.641.84040.m12@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20030319063625.37640.qmail@web14003.mail.yahoo.com>

Steve/bboy_mn wrote: 
> Thanks for the reply, and thanks to the people who replied off line.
> There is very little Brit-speak that I don't know or can't figure out
> realative to understanding the story, so when I encounter things like-
> 
> using AS instead of SINCE (USA: Since it was getting late, we... UK:
> As it was getting late, we...)
> 
> Using AS WELL instead of TOO (UK:I like chocolate as well. USA: I like
> chocolate too.)
> 
> phrases like blimey, bloody, bleeding, ruddy, codswallop, Oy!, Oi!,
> gerroff, jumper instead of sweater, garden instead of yard or lawn,
> crikey, marks instead of grades, biscuits instead of cookies, pudding
> instead of desert, etc...

I've never batted an eye "as/as well", as I use them both often, nor the
"codswallop" (one of my favorite vocab words from elementary school),
"biscuits", etc. But especially not "reckon." Although it's not something that
I use when I'm out of the South (also from Louisiana, though from New
Orleans/St. James), unlike "y'all" and "fixing to" (as those words just do
*not* have an equilivent in SAE; "fixing to" has an immediate sense of getting
ready to do something, a tense that other languages have), it is something that
I don't think of as an anomaly. As far as it being taken from American slang,
perhaps from western movies? IIRC, its use was prominate in them. 

And, from OED, for I love it so: 
reckon: 
    6. a. To consider, think, suppose, be of opinion, etc., that. Also with
omission of that. Now usu. colloq., esp. in the U.S. (formerly chiefly in
southern States). 
    b. I reckon, used parenthetically or finally.
  Formerly in literary Eng. use; still common in Eng. dialects, and current in
the southern States of America in place of the northern "I guess". 


Lina

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Everything you'll ever need on one web page
from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
http://uk.my.yahoo.com



From jrober4 at bellsouth.net  Wed Mar 19 04:58:46 2003
From: jrober4 at bellsouth.net (jrober4 at bellsouth.net)
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 23:58:46 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: The morality question
References: <b56noi+dph1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <009701c2edd4$3a2b2170$7ea1d6d1@nonexuzodpqjy5>

bboy_mn:
Harry is not a saint. He's a little kid with very poor upbringing,
poor role models, limited socialization, generally abused who, on the
whole, is far better behaved than the average kid, and has far better
moral character than most of the kids who will read these books. Lying
is rarely shown without consequences or guilt. 


Me:
You make some excellent points --not only here, but throughout your post -- which have given me some more things to think about.  There are so many ways to practice one's morality, depending on your religious beliefs, and I am coming to realize that the practical way to go is to find the right balance between what you believe and how you practice it.  I hope I didn't given the impression that I was a saint or thought I should be one, as that would be an impossible task for me.  And I apologize if I came across as "self-righteous".  You are correct in saying that it's about right and wrong . . . but you will get a *lot* of arguments in this world about what that means, LOL.  

Would there have been a happy ending in each book if Harry has just gone straight to Dumbledore about everything?  I don't know.  I remember reading somewhere that Dumbledore was trying to give the students the opportunity to make decisions on their own about situations they face. or something along that line, and so having Harry, Ron and Hermione do what they did was actually a learnign experience for them.  There is no question that they are the good guys, even if they have used what some would term questionable methods to bring about a happy ending.  Obviously, I have been presumptuous in some of my conclusions and need to give more thought before "shooting my mouth off" about certain things . . . as well as listening to other voices on the matter, as I am doing here.

What really *grabbed* about the SS movie first, and then the books, was Harry Potter, himself.  I was sympathetic with him from the beginning, and he is what keeps me reading with great enthusiasm.  I understand how he feels somewhat, as I grew up in an emotionally abusive situation, myself, though what I was subjected to was  more subtle (and thus milder, perhaps) than what the Dursleys do to Harry.  Harry is blessed, indeed, that he had the personality to "blossom" wonderfully in the Hogwart's atmosphere.  There were those -- like myself -- who have not been so fortunate.  It wasn't until I met the most wonderful man in the world three months ago that I began to "blossom" that way.  Perhaps it's not a coincidence that this is when I discovered Harry Potter.  Who knows?  <grin>    

Thank you for not "jumping all over me" -- your patience and understanding is greatly appreciated.  

Judy




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From drednort at alphalink.com.au  Wed Mar 19 07:56:07 2003
From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately)
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 18:56:07 +1100
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: The morality question
In-Reply-To: <009f01c2edd7$29f6d8f0$7ea1d6d1@nonexuzodpqjy5>
Message-ID: <3E78BD47.32183.1F5F74@localhost>

On 19 Mar 2003 at 0:19, jrober4 at bellsouth.net wrote:

> Melpomene wrote:
> 
> Re: Lying
> 
> The issue of the heros lying and breaking rules and getting away with 
> it or even being rewarded for it has been discussed quite a bit here 
> and you'll find valid arguments on both sides. I happen to be in the 
> camp that thinks that although their hearts are in the right place 
> they could indeed use some more firm handed direction. I'm also STILL 
> waiting for Harry to thank Snape for saving his skin on more than one 
> occassion. I won't hold my breath. But hey, as I've said here before 
> I make my kids write Thank-you note for gifts so some folks here 
> probably think I have a little office right off Snape's dungeon where 
> we think up awful, unfair things that kids should have to do to be 
> considered civilized.

I've spent some of the last few days tracking down addresses, e-mails and snail-mail for 
a bunch of my old teachers - including some whom I think were rather Snape-like in 
many ways, and *finally* writing thank you letters to them - in some cases, 15 years after 
they taught me.

One of them wrote me a reply, which I obviously can't quote here. Now this guy was a 
teacher I more or less hated at school (and a friend who knew me at the time cannot 
believe I wrote to thank him because in her opinion, this teacher sounded positively evil, 
and a child abuser - I disagree but seriously I did hate him for what I felt were very 
sound reasons at 13), but very recently my opinion had changed. Anyway, briefly, in his 
reply he mentioned that a couple of times a year he either gets an e-mail like mine, or a 
letter or a phone call, or meets an ex-pupil who thanks him (as he taught at least 60  
boys each discrete year that isn't really that high a number) and it means a *lot* to him. 
But he has never wanted to be thanked by boys while they were still boys - it happens 
and it can be gratifying, but it's not all that important.

I'm not sure where I'm going with this - maybe to say, that while I too would like to see 
Harry thank Snape for what he has done, I'm not sure it's a reasonable thing to expect. 
Even if Harry intellectually realised that Snape had saved his life and decided to thank 
him for it, to me that would be Harry doing what he knows to be right, rather than what 
he *believes* to be right - just like writing a letter of thanks just because your parents 
make you (-8 

It's polite, it's good manners - but it really doesn't mean much at all (not that I am saying 
it shouldn't happen - I think politeness and good manners are worthwhile things and can 
be taught, rather than having to come from inside).

Personally, I think Snape deserves a lot more than a pro-forma apology (I also believe 
he deserves to be tarred and feathered for some of the other things he did - it's possible 
to admire the man for some actions and despise him for others), and at the moment I 
think pro-forma is all he could ever get from Harry - at least Harry at the stage of 
maturity evident at the end of GoF (although he's getting closer).

Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought
Shaun Hately |webpage: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html
(ISTJ)       |email: drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200

                       "Almighty Ruler of the all;
                 Whose power extends to great and small;
                 Who guides the stars with steadfast law;
                   Whose least creation fills with awe;
                     Oh grant thy mercy and thy grace;
                     To those who venture into space."




From tahewitt at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 19 08:19:32 2003
From: tahewitt at yahoo.com (Tyler Hewitt)
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 00:19:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Deciding what kids can read
In-Reply-To: <1048056334.5801.66249.m4@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20030319081932.98209.qmail@web14203.mail.yahoo.com>


Barb posted an interesting piece about children and
reading appropriate books that contined the following:

"As for deciding what kids can and cannot read, I have
to say that I disagree very, very strongly with
this...

...For the most part, kids don't read things for which
they're not 
ready. "


I agree with you completely on this. I don't have
kids, but if I did, they would be encouraged to read
anything they chose.

When I was growing up, I was allowed to read whatever
I wanted. I was NEVER prevented from reading anything,
no matter what the subject matter or reading/content
level. I read mostly kids books, but I was an avid
reader and basically read anything I could get my
hands on. 

I handeled everything I read well, even things that
were obviously advanced for my age. I read the book
'Sybil', about the woman who was abused as a child and
developed multiple personality syndrome, when I was in
third grade (around age 8 or 9 for you Brits). I
remember being confused by descriptions of
menstruation, as I had no idea what that was. The rest
of it I understood fine, and even though that book has
some really disturbing scenes, I came through
untraumatized. 

I credit my lifelong love of reading and a fairly
healthy intellectual curiosity with my being able to
read whatever I wanted (and watch whatever I wanted-tv
was completely uncensored for me as a kid). I sure as
hell didn't get it from the lackluster education I
recieved in my hometown's public school system (I
argued with my school librarian to let me check out
books reserved for 6th graders when in the 4th grade.
She was unwilling to let me until my mother intervened
on my behalf. I still don't know what was so advanced
in the O. Henry and Louisa May Alcott books I checked
out of the 6th grade section). At home I was able to
explore whatever caught my fancy, and as a result was
occasionally challenged intellectualy, something I
almost never got at school. 

I feel it best to let kids read whatever they want,
and provide them with ample opportunity to do so. As
long as you are willing to discuss what they are
reading, they will be fine. 
The argument that kids need to be protected from
certain ideas is ridiculous and does more harm than
good. Children need to be exposed to MORE ideas, not
less. Any beliefs worth keeping will withstand being
compared to other concepts which might contradict
them. I feel sorry for people whose belief system is
so fragile that it seemingly can't hold up to a little
scrutiny.

Tyler

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
http://platinum.yahoo.com



From eloiseherisson at aol.com  Wed Mar 19 11:10:09 2003
From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloise_herisson)
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 11:10:09 -0000
Subject: slang and HP  was re  Reckon
In-Reply-To: <b580bt+tl6p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b59j6h+a9gt@eGroups.com>

"Steve" <bboy_mn at y...> wrote:

(quoting Ali)
> > <<< pudding instead of desert, etc...>>>
> > 
> > That is a funny one, as I seem to remember most people 
> > calling "puddings", "desserts" when I was growing up. I do 
remember 
> > being told though that the "proper" word was "pudding". Certainly 
> > now "pudding" is the favourite.

Yes. As far as I am aware, "pudding" is U and "dessert" is non-U, 
although I can't find them listed in Nancy Mitford's original list.
I think the principle behind it is that it's one of those words of 
French origin which the nouveau rich with social aspirations started 
to use because they *thought* that it was the kind of thing the upper 
classes said.

Similarly, toilet for lavatory, serviette for dinner-napkin, lounge 
for a room in a house (as opposed to in an hotel).

> 
> bboy_mn:
> This is another word I find very confusing because there is 
something
> specifically called pudding which is a very thick creamy milk based
> desert that resembles custard but is made slightly different.

I think you mean what we call egg custard, or what with a thin, dark 
burned-sugary sauce, is called creme caramele.

It's an interesting point, as in Japan, the word "purin", whwich is 
derived from "pudding", means, IIRC exactly that. I never quite 
understood why, but perhaps it is a borrowing from US English.

I suspect the reason for the original confusion is that 
traditionally, British "puddings" have been of the heavy, stodgy 
variety, cooked,often suet-based recipes,like Christmas pudding or 
roly poly, or sponges, for instance treacle pudding (which as I 
expect you all know now is made with Golden Syrup - just to muddy the 
waters even further, we don't call Golden Syrup treacle, but we do 
call the sponge pudding and the tart made with it "treacle-"pudding 
and tart. Often these are made in pudding basins. They're the kind of 
traditional fare which the upper classes would have eaten.

My speculation is that the word "dessert" seemed more suitable for 
lighter, fancier puddings, French-style pastries and the like which 
were perceived as more sophisticated and therefore more "classy".

It would be really interesting to look up the history of the two 
words' usages in the full OED.

Incidentally, although JKR refers to the mound of whipped cream and 
sugared violets (which sounds revolting and is like nothing that I 
have ever come across)in CoS as a pudding, I'd bet my bottom dollar 
that Petunia would call it a "dessert".

> 
> I was reading at a website on British slang, although it was really
> about the differences between British and American, and it said that
> waffles would generally be referred to as pudding. That would imply
> that if you asked someone what the had for breakfast or lunch and 
they
> said 'pudding' it could be cake, ice cream, or anyone of a long list
> of other deserts, or it could indeed not even be a desert at all; it
> could be waffles (how about pancakes?). How can you understand what
> people are saying when a word is used in such an all encompassing 
way?

I'm not sure about that.
True, a while ago, when waffles were exotic, I suppose they might 
have been thought of as puddings. I remember a fabulous, minute 
waffle house I an my friends used to frequent in Cambridge. We'd go 
there for pudding after hall in the evening occasionally. They were 
definitely treated as puddings there. 

But these days, we've become quite cosmopolitan don't y'know? My 
local supermarket stocks different brands of at least two different 
types of waffle (American and Belgian), with the breakfast bakery 
stuff, not to mention a huge variety of bagels. 

On reflection, I think the site you refer to was viewing "pudding" in 
a functional way. The sweet thing you eat at the end of a meal *is* a 
pudding. So a waffle isn't a pudding, per se, but you could eat one 
for pudding.


> Biscuit is another one. A biscuit is a cookie or a cracker which are
> two very different foods used for very different purposed, although
> they do resemble each other in construction. So if someone had soup
> and buscuits for lunch, did they have crackers in their soup or did
> they have soup and then have cookies for their 'pudding'. ...so 
confusing.


If a Brit said they's had soup and biscuits, they'd almost certainly 
mean they'd had soup *with* some kind of cracker.

This cookie/biscuit/cracker thing is one of the things I find most 
confusing. I know what you mean by biscuit but the British biscuit 
doesn't seem to me to be an exact equivalent of the cookie.

At least.......Well, when we use "cookie" we mean a specific type of 
biscuit(the ones that are rather like home-baked ones, often moist).

Over here we have a *vast* range of biscuits. It's one of our 
weaknesses. I go to a huge supermarket where both sides of a long 
aisle are filled with shelves of nothing but (?)hundreds of varieties 
of biscuits and crackers (is it any wonder we're becoming obese?) 
Many of them, as far as I can tell have no direct US equivalent. In 
fact, when in the US and shopping for my kids, I've had problems 
finding any they would eat (other than horrendoulsy expensive imports 
and Oreos) as they don't like what I would refer to as cookies 
(especially the moist ones) for some strange reason. 

Many of our biscuits have a texture somewhat like the outside of an 
Oreo. Some are smoother (Rich Tea). Then there are wafer biscuits and 
digestive biscuits (which may be eaten either as sweet biscuits or 
with cheese, like a cracker)and all manner of chocolate-coated ones.

Muffin is another one. When we moved to Tokyo, I leaped on a display 
of "English muffins", wondering that such short-lived bakery items 
could get as far as Japan, only then to be mystified that they 
weren't made in England at all. So why were they labelled, "English"?
It was only later that I realised that what I would have 
called "American muffins" were simply labelled, "muffins".

These latter have also become very popular over here and although 
still frequently labelled "American style" (particularly to make them 
seem particularly authentic) I think we use the unqualified term for 
both.

But the difference is quite clear. Our muffins are toasted and eaten 
for breakfast or tea, where such an antiquated habit still exists, 
whereas your muffins definitely count as cakes and we wouldn't 
normally eat them for breakfast.


Here's another one. Brits as well. What's the difference between a 
tart and a pie?

There was an ideological split over this one in my family.

My mother would always refer to what she made for Sunday pudding as a 
pie. This was made in a shallow pie dish and had both a pastry case 
and a lid. It was a pie because it had a top. A pudding made in a 
deep pie dish, with no bottom, but simply a pastry lid, as her MIL 
made, would similarly be a pie, the definitional point being that 
pies have lids.

As far as my father was concerned, what my mother made was a tart, on 
the principle that it had a bottom. 

So do pies have tops, or do tarts have bottoms? (Stop sniggering!)

I don't know whether this is a regional thing (my mother was a 
northerner and my father a southerner).

I personally think that tarts should be open as it's clearly a word 
of French origin and French tartes are open.

Not that it is of any significance whatsoever.

~Eloise









From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Wed Mar 19 15:24:16 2003
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David)
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 15:24:16 -0000
Subject: Pies, puddings, biscuits and tarts
In-Reply-To: <b59j6h+a9gt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b5a230+kc84@eGroups.com>

Eloise wrote:

Puddings:
> 
> I suspect the reason for the original confusion is that 
> traditionally, British "puddings" have been of the heavy, stodgy 
> variety, cooked,often suet-based recipes,like Christmas pudding or 
> roly poly, or sponges, for instance treacle pudding (which as I 
> expect you all know now is made with Golden Syrup - just to muddy 
the 
> waters even further, we don't call Golden Syrup treacle, but we do 
> call the sponge pudding and the tart made with it "treacle-
"pudding 
> and tart. Often these are made in pudding basins.

And, furthermore, puddings are not necessarily eaten for pudding.  
For example, steak and kidney pudding is a main course, quite 
different from steak and kidney pie.

At home, we called the course after the main course, when we got 
it, 'afters' (so, to us kids, the main course was 'befores'), unless 
it was fruit, in which case we just called it 'fruit', seen as a 
second-best option, though not, no doubt, by my mother.  Dessert 
sounded pretentious, pudding regional.  There is also 'sweet', as 
in, e.g., the sweet trolley, which we never used.

> On reflection, I think the site you refer to was viewing "pudding" 
in 
> a functional way. The sweet thing you eat at the end of a meal 
*is* a 
> pudding. So a waffle isn't a pudding, per se, but you could eat 
one 
> for pudding.

Yes, I think so.  Summarising, we have two meanings of the 
word 'pudding': the sweet course at the end of the meal, and the 
suet-based recipes referred to above.
 
> This cookie/biscuit/cracker thing is one of the things I find most 
> confusing. I know what you mean by biscuit but the British biscuit 
> doesn't seem to me to be an exact equivalent of the cookie.

Are crackers baked twice?  This is in my mind the essential 
definition of a biscuit.

> At least.......Well, when we use "cookie" we mean a specific type 
of 
> biscuit (the ones that are rather like home-baked ones, often 
moist).
> 
> Over here we have a *vast* range of biscuits. It's one of our 
> weaknesses. I go to a huge supermarket where both sides of a long 
> aisle are filled with shelves of nothing but (?)hundreds of 
varieties 
> of biscuits and crackers (is it any wonder we're becoming obese?) 

> Many of our biscuits have a texture somewhat like the outside of 
an 
> Oreo. Some are smoother (Rich Tea). Then there are wafer biscuits 
and 
> digestive biscuits (which may be eaten either as sweet biscuits or 
> with cheese, like a cracker)and all manner of chocolate-coated 
ones.

...and Iced Sports and Garibaldis and Ginger Thins and Yorkshire 
Parkins and Bournmouths and Jaffa Cakes and Nice and Bath Olivers 
(these test the biscuit/cracker boundary) and Angel Trumpets and 
Custard Creams and Hob Nobs and Oatcakes and Scottish Shortbread and 
those lovely Swedish Annas Pepparkakor and...

That said, I think the biscuit-eater's biscuit is the Rich Tea: 
plain, ideal for dunking (a habit that I suspect would truly revolt 
American readers), sweet but simple.

> Muffin is another one. When we moved to Tokyo, I leaped on a 
display 
> of "English muffins", wondering that such short-lived bakery items 
> could get as far as Japan, only then to be mystified that they 
> weren't made in England at all. So why were they 
labelled, "English"?

That's IMO a common phenomenon.  In Vienna, they make - or made - 
sweet pastry.  In time, the Danes discovered it and copied the 
recipe, no doubt adding twists of their own, and called it 
Wienerbrod (Vienna bread).  Eating it is one of the chief delights 
of visiting Denmark, and in due course it came to Britain (modified 
again) as Danish Pastry, or just 'a Danish' for short.  But the 
Germans and Austrians disvovered it too, calling it, IIRC, 
Kopenhagenergebaeck - 'Copenhagen bake'.  And so it goes round, a 
sort of gustatory Chinese Whispers.  But none of the actual food 
travels - only the recipes, heavily adapted to local ingredients and 
tastes.

No doubt the Japanese will make muffins their own, and eventually a 
faintly seaweed-flavoured lukewarm bun made from rice flour will be 
all the rage in New York, called Tokyo Engrish, or some such.

> But the difference is quite clear. Our muffins are toasted and 
eaten 
> for breakfast or tea, where such an antiquated habit still exists, 
> whereas your muffins definitely count as cakes and we wouldn't 
> normally eat them for breakfast.

But, I believe, Americans eat filling sweet food for breakfast that 
we wouldn't, except, perhaps, on holiday (er (or uh), that's 
vacation to you, um, y'all)?  Buttermilk pancakes and maple syrup 
springs to mind.
 
> Here's another one. Brits as well. What's the difference between a 
> tart and a pie?

A tart has no lid, only a base, and the filling is sweet.  If the 
filling is savoury, or there is a lid (base or not), it's probably a 
pie, though some things with savoury filling and a base may be 
quiche or flan.  To confuse things, flans can be sweet as well.  
Clear?  Good.

David




From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Wed Mar 19 17:06:25 2003
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David)
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 17:06:25 -0000
Subject: A total diversion
Message-ID: <b5a82h+lfpa@eGroups.com>

This just creased me up:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2864063.stm

especially the quote from the Greek Foreign Minister.

Personally, I think that when they find a group of secret agents who 
have been mysteriously bored to death, they will have the culprits.

David




From yalithb223 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 19 17:37:16 2003
From: yalithb223 at yahoo.com (yalithb223)
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 17:37:16 -0000
Subject: Deciding what kids can read
In-Reply-To: <20030319081932.98209.qmail@web14203.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <b5a9sc+ju99@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Tyler Hewitt <tahewitt at y...> 
wrote:
> 

> "As for deciding what kids can and cannot read, I have
> to say that I disagree very, very strongly with
> this...
> 
> ...For the most part, kids don't read things for which
> they're not 
> ready. "
> 
> 
> I agree with you completely on this. I don't have
> kids, but if I did, they would be encouraged to read
> anything they chose.
> 
> When I was growing up, I was allowed to read whatever
> I wanted. I was NEVER prevented from reading anything,
> no matter what the subject matter or reading/content
> level. I read mostly kids books, but I was an avid
> reader and basically read anything I could get my
> hands on. 
> 
<snip>
> I credit my lifelong love of reading and a fairly
> healthy intellectual curiosity with my being able to
> read whatever I wanted (and watch whatever I wanted-tv
> was completely uncensored for me as a kid). I sure as
> hell didn't get it from the lackluster education I
> recieved in my hometown's public school system (I
> argued with my school librarian to let me check out
> books reserved for 6th graders when in the 4th grade.
> She was unwilling to let me until my mother intervened
> on my behalf. I still don't know what was so advanced
> in the O. Henry and Louisa May Alcott books I checked
> out of the 6th grade section). At home I was able to
> explore whatever caught my fancy, and as a result was
> occasionally challenged intellectualy, something I
> almost never got at school. 

I totally agree with you on this.  I was also allowed to read whatever I would 
when I was growing up.  I have been a voracious reader all my life.  I actually 
refused to read what was assigned to me (having already read most of it) in 
favor of more stimulating material from the school library.  I outgrew the fiction 
section at my school very rapidly, and I moved on to the nonfiction.  

I have turned completely into trivia buff.  I know a lot of "useless" stuff.  I guess 
I'd be great at jeopardy, lol!  Anyway, my point is, we need to challenge our 
children.   We expect so little from them and that is what we get in return.  Our 
declining knowledge as a general population is not due to children who are 
less able, but children who have low expectations placed on them by parents, 
the school system, and the world in general.

I understand that there are children with difficulties who need extra help, but 
I'm talking about your average child.  It is not unreasonable to expect a child 
to learn to read at age 4 in my opinion (I learned at age 3).  But there are still 
young people in high school who read at a grammar school level.  We place 
too much emphasis on being popular or being good at sports and not nearly 
enough on academic achievement.  

I also believe that we don't provide nearly enough support for those students 
with some learning difficulties.  I have a friend who was diagnosed with 
dislexya at age 8, but no one did anything to help him with it until age 15.  As 
a result he dropped out of school.  He still claims to be unable to read to this 
day.  I know he is able to read, but only very rudimentarily.  How is is possible 
that he made it through 10 grades of school with only 2nd or 3rd grade 
reading ability?

Anyway, done with my ramble.  I find that this problem really gets to me 
because I teach at the college level.  Each year, I feel like they're getting 
farther and farther from my reach.  And I'm floundering for something to do 
about it.  That's one reason why I feel that the HP books are so great.  I think it 
is wonderful that book is finally more popular than a video game.  

Jessica I.




From golden_faile at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 19 18:47:12 2003
From: golden_faile at yahoo.com (golden faile)
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 10:47:12 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Deciding what kids can read
In-Reply-To: <b5a9sc+ju99@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20030319184712.78342.qmail@web41115.mail.yahoo.com>


For the most part I agree... Do I think that an 8 year old 
should read playboy, no. That is an extreme example, but 
a person can't just go around not setting any limits. I read 
and watched pretty much what I wanted, and I pretty much
do the same with my kids. However, there are limits.There 
have been times when I thought that my childeren were 
emotionally mature enough to handle certain things and I've 
been wrong. It depends on the child the people who have 
posted seem like they were very mature children. I was to, 
but not every child has the ability to be mature. I think that the 
limits are placed with these children in mind. I have one that is 
very mature, for his age and one that is very immature. I think if 
I had not had the experience of the immature child that I would 
agree totally with this post.
 
Laila
 
 yalithb223 <yalithb223 at yahoo.com> wrote:--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Tyler Hewitt <tahewitt at y...> 
wrote:
> 

> "As for deciding what kids can and cannot read, I have
> to say that I disagree very, very strongly with
> this...
> 
> ...For the most part, kids don't read things for which
> they're not 
> ready. "
> 
> 
> I agree with you completely on this. I don't have
> kids, but if I did, they would be encouraged to read
> anything they chose.
> 
> When I was growing up, I was allowed to read whatever
> I wanted. I was NEVER prevented from reading anything,
> no matter what the subject matter or reading/content
> level. I read mostly kids books, but I was an avid
> reader and basically read anything I could get my
> hands on. 
> 
<snip>
> I credit my lifelong love of reading and a fairly
> healthy intellectual curiosity with my being able to
> read whatever I wanted (and watch whatever I wanted-tv
> was completely uncensored for me as a kid). I sure as
> hell didn't get it from the lackluster education I
> recieved in my hometown's public school system (I
> argued with my school librarian to let me check out
> books reserved for 6th graders when in the 4th grade.
> She was unwilling to let me until my mother intervened
> on my behalf. I still don't know what was so advanced
> in the O. Henry and Louisa May Alcott books I checked
> out of the 6th grade section). At home I was able to
> explore whatever caught my fancy, and as a result was
> occasionally challenged intellectualy, something I
> almost never got at school. 

I totally agree with you on this.  I was also allowed to read whatever I would 
when I was growing up.  I have been a voracious reader all my life.  I actually 
refused to read what was assigned to me (having already read most of it) in 
favor of more stimulating material from the school library.  I outgrew the fiction 
section at my school very rapidly, and I moved on to the nonfiction.  

I have turned completely into trivia buff.  I know a lot of "useless" stuff.  I guess 
I'd be great at jeopardy, lol!  Anyway, my point is, we need to challenge our 
children.   We expect so little from them and that is what we get in return.  Our 
declining knowledge as a general population is not due to children who are 
less able, but children who have low expectations placed on them by parents, 
the school system, and the world in general.

I understand that there are children with difficulties who need extra help, but 
I'm talking about your average child.  It is not unreasonable to expect a child 
to learn to read at age 4 in my opinion (I learned at age 3).  But there are still 
young people in high school who read at a grammar school level.  We place 
too much emphasis on being popular or being good at sports and not nearly 
enough on academic achievement.  

I also believe that we don't provide nearly enough support for those students 
with some learning difficulties.  I have a friend who was diagnosed with 
dislexya at age 8, but no one did anything to help him with it until age 15.  As 
a result he dropped out of school.  He still claims to be unable to read to this 
day.  I know he is able to read, but only very rudimentarily.  How is is possible 
that he made it through 10 grades of school with only 2nd or 3rd grade 
reading ability?

Anyway, done with my ramble.  I find that this problem really gets to me 
because I teach at the college level.  Each year, I feel like they're getting 
farther and farther from my reach.  And I'm floundering for something to do 
about it.  That's one reason why I feel that the HP books are so great.  I think it 
is wonderful that book is finally more popular than a video game.  

Jessica I.


Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
var lrec_target="_top";var lrec_URL = new Array();lrec_URL[1] = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.3079700.4403303.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1707544108:HM/A=1430287/R=0/id=flashurl/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405";var link="javascript:LRECopenWindow(1)";var lrec_flashfile = 'http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/intl_library_of_poetry/yahoo_300x250.swf?clickTAG='+link+'';var lrec_altURL = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.3079700.4403303.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1707544108:HM/A=1430287/R=1/id=altimgurl/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405";var lrec_altimg = "http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/intl_library_of_poetry/yahoo_300x250.gif";var lrec_width = 300;var lrec_height = 250;
________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________

Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the group's Admin Files!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/

Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying!

Is your message...
An announcement of merchandise, news etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements.
Movie-related? Send it to HPFGU-Movie.
Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups.
None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter.
Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com

Unsubscribing? Email HPFGU-OTChatter-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
____________________________________________________________ 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From timregan at microsoft.com  Wed Mar 19 18:54:52 2003
From: timregan at microsoft.com (Tim Regan)
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 18:54:52 -0000
Subject: Veggie Hob-Nobs (Was Re: Pies, puddings, biscuits and tarts)
In-Reply-To: <b5a230+kc84@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b5aeds+mce0@eGroups.com>

Hi All,

--- "David" <dfrankiswork at n...> wrote:
> ...and Iced Sports and Garibaldis and Ginger Thins and Yorkshire 
> Parkins and Bournmouths and Jaffa Cakes and Nice and Bath Olivers 
> (these test the biscuit/cracker boundary) and Angel Trumpets and 
> Custard Creams and Hob Nobs and Oatcakes and Scottish Shortbread 

One mystery I've never understood is why chocolate Hob-Nobs are 
veggie (i.e. do not contain animal fats) while plain Hob-Nobs are 
not veggie. Surely the addition of a layer of chocolate should not 
affect the contents of the biscuit underneath - it's magic!


Cheers,


Dumbledad




From golden_faile at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 19 19:36:09 2003
From: golden_faile at yahoo.com (golden faile)
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 11:36:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Deciding what kids can read
In-Reply-To: <b5a9sc+ju99@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20030319193609.49664.qmail@web41110.mail.yahoo.com>


Jessica wrote:
 > I understand that there are children with difficulties who need extra help, but 
I'm talking about your average child.  It is not unreasonable to expect a child 
to learn to read at age 4 in my opinion (I learned at age 3).  But there are still 
young people in high school who read at a grammar school level.  We place 
too much emphasis on being popular or being good at sports and not nearly 
enough on academic achievement.  

I also believe that we don't provide nearly enough support for those students 
with some learning difficulties.  I have a friend who was diagnosed with 
dislexya at age 8, but no one did anything to help him with it until age 15.  As 
a result he dropped out of school.  He still claims to be unable to read to this 
day.  I know he is able to read, but only very rudimentarily.  How is is possible 
that he made it through 10 grades of school with only 2nd or 3rd grade 
reading ability?

 

Laila:

I think that the issue here is not reading 

material. The issue seems to be getting the

child to read. I agree with you about parents

not challenging their children. IF you keep

books around from the beginning,read to child-

ren and get them interested half of he battle is 

done.

 I've kept books in my house from day one. My son 

is in the sixth grade and reads on an 11th grade 

level, but so did I and so will his sister. People 

are always impressed with this and I think to myself 

that it should not be uncommon. The key is to read 

and develope a good vocabulary.

I think in most cases it just comes down to parent 

involvement. People don't care to pay attention to 

how their children are doing.If parents are in tune 

with their kids,they know what they are capable and 

whether or not they are capable of more.

Popularity an athletics have their place.I think 

we all wish for our kids to have it all,friends, academics,and to be healthy. My son tends

to be a bookworm, I wish that he would make some 

friends and play a sport( he seems a bit lonely to me). 

Is this wrong? 

As for your friend, sadly there are alot of cases like this, his parents,

a teacher, someone should have noticed. There are quite a few kids who slip 

through the cracks by simply faking it because of overcrowding in classrooms 

or many of the other distractions in our public school systems. I can understand 

your frustration. Sorry did not mean to babble.

 







Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
var lrec_target="_top";var lrec_URL = new Array();lrec_URL[1] = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.3079700.4403303.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1707544108:HM/A=1430287/R=0/id=flashurl/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405";var link="javascript:LRECopenWindow(1)";var lrec_flashfile = 'http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/intl_library_of_poetry/yahoo_300x250.swf?clickTAG='+link+'';var lrec_altURL = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.3079700.4403303.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1707544108:HM/A=1430287/R=1/id=altimgurl/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405";var lrec_altimg = "http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/intl_library_of_poetry/yahoo_300x250.gif";var lrec_width = 300;var lrec_height = 250;


________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________

Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the group's Admin Files!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/

Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying!

Is your message...
An announcement of merchandise, news etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements.
Movie-related? Send it to HPFGU-Movie.
Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups.
None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter.
Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com

Unsubscribing? Email HPFGU-OTChatter-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
____________________________________________________________ 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 




---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From prittylina at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 19 20:08:05 2003
From: prittylina at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Lina?=)
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 20:08:05 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: slang and HP  was re  Reckon
In-Reply-To: <1048090992.984.35003.m12@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20030319200805.22256.qmail@web14005.mail.yahoo.com>

 --- eloise_herisson wrote: 
> > bboy_mn:
> > This is another word I find very confusing because there is 
> something
> > specifically called pudding which is a very thick creamy milk based
> > desert that resembles custard but is made slightly different.
> 
> I think you mean what we call egg custard, or what with a thin, dark 
> burned-sugary sauce, is called creme caramele.
> 
> It's an interesting point, as in Japan, the word "purin", whwich is 
> derived from "pudding", means, IIRC exactly that. I never quite 
> understood why, but perhaps it is a borrowing from US English.

"Purin", while coming from the word "pudding" is actually more like the flan or
the creme caramele: it's baked (in a water bath) and can stand on its own.
(This is how we make purin at Japonaise Patisserie at least.) Pudding (US) is
more like a polymer in that it's both liquid and solid. It's usually spongy and
light or cremey and thick. I don't recall ever encountering the later in
Japan... 

(You are thinking of this, no?
http://www.edp24.co.uk/Content/Leisure/Recipes/img/Dessert/Caramel.jpg ) 

> Here's another one. Brits as well. What's the difference between a 
> tart and a pie?
...

> I personally think that tarts should be open as it's clearly a word 
> of French origin and French tartes are open.

But not a Tarte (de) Linz. ;D Although I agree. It's French, so it should
follow their rules. 

To me, tartes can be sweet or savory (and have a different crust for each type)
and are generally (no top) and made in the shallow (usually crinkled) pan. Pies
are made with deeper pans and more or less fully enclosed (i.e. they have
tops). A pie is also a bird that could be cooked into either one of these,
which would give one the fun name of "Pie Pie." 

Davis wrote: 
> > This cookie/biscuit/cracker thing is one of the things I find most 
> > confusing. I know what you mean by biscuit but the British biscuit 
> > doesn't seem to me to be an exact equivalent of the cookie.
> 
> Are crackers baked twice?  This is in my mind the essential 
> definition of a biscuit.

A cracker is generally savory, isn't it? If something is baked twice, then I
don't know what it would be generally called (we'd call it a biscotte, which
I've only seen translated as "crisp toast" and "melba toast"? I think). 

> No doubt the Japanese will make muffins their own, and eventually a 
> faintly seaweed-flavoured lukewarm bun made from rice flour will be 
> all the rage in New York, called Tokyo Engrish, or some such.

Sounds more like a Chinese treat than Japanese (seaweed-flavored mantou?
eeh..). It would likely taste like a sponge (well, moreso than a typical mantou
does). 

> > But the difference is quite clear. Our muffins are toasted and 
> eaten 
> > for breakfast or tea, where such an antiquated habit still exists, 
> > whereas your muffins definitely count as cakes and we wouldn't 
> > normally eat them for breakfast.
> 
> But, I believe, Americans eat filling sweet food for breakfast that 
> we wouldn't, except, perhaps, on holiday (er (or uh), that's 
> vacation to you, um, y'all)?  Buttermilk pancakes and maple syrup 
> springs to mind.

ugh. And those disgusting breakfast cereals. I've never understood why people
don't just eat dinner or supper leftovers for breakfast the next day as, in my
family at least, that was the only way that we could get rid of them. Beignets
should be the only exception to this. (And one really should only say "y'all"
to Southerners lest one be ridiculed. ;D)


Lina, who couldn't fathom eating waffles and whipped creme for breakfast,  la
her roommate who uses "you(s) guys" as a plural "you" from time to time

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Everything you'll ever need on one web page
from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
http://uk.my.yahoo.com



From joym999 at aol.com  Wed Mar 19 20:08:10 2003
From: joym999 at aol.com (joywitch_m_curmudgeon)
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 20:08:10 -0000
Subject: The morality question
In-Reply-To: <b586qi+p5kb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b5aina+mq3l@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "psychic_serpent" wrote an 
extremely excellent post about morality in children's literature.  
Thanks, Barb.  Just one question.  You say:

> since we know that JKR likes Dahl, and 
> since it's not difficult to see her homage to Dahl in things like 
> her descriptions of the Dursleys (think Aunt Spiker and Aunt 
> Sponge.

I totally agree -- the first time I read SS, the Dursleys made me 
think of Matilda's parents.  But, do we actually know that JKR likes 
Dahl?  I mean, has she said so in an interview, or is this just what 
we've surmissed from her (pretty obvious) references/tributes to Dahl?

--Joywitch, too lazy to search Mike Gray's site of JKR interviews




From melclaros at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 19 21:40:22 2003
From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros)
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 21:40:22 -0000
Subject: This ANNOYING Poetry ad
Message-ID: <b5ao46+fd4o@eGroups.com>

Is this stupid poetry contest never-ending? Yes I know we're 
supported by ads but these are cruel and unusual punishment!




From jenP_97 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 19 21:43:28 2003
From: jenP_97 at yahoo.com (jenp_97)
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 21:43:28 -0000
Subject: This ANNOYING Poetry ad
In-Reply-To: <b5ao46+fd4o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b5aoa0+m4tp@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "melclaros" <melclaros at y...>
wrote:
> Is this stupid poetry contest never-ending? Yes I know we're 
> supported by ads but these are cruel and unusual punishment!

And not only that, but you can't right-click it and hit "ban images
from this server" because it's a stupid flash ad!!!

-Jen P., who's sorry for the "me too", so will add a p.s.:

PS - Allie crawled for the first time on Sunday!!





From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 19 22:00:31 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 22:00:31 -0000
Subject: Pies, puddings, biscuits and tarts + rolls, buns, muffins, ...
In-Reply-To: <b5a230+kc84@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b5ap9v+jctn@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "David" <dfrankiswork at n...> wrote:
> Eloise wrote:
> 
> Puddings:
> > 
> > ... traditionally, British "puddings" have been of the heavy, 
> > stodgy variety, cooked, often suet-based recipes,like Christmas 
> > pudding or roly poly, or sponges, for instance treacle pudding 


bboy_mn:

SUET!
OK, your going to have to explain suet to me. I know what suet is;
it's a big nasty dried out piece of beef fat. The only thing I've seen
suet used for in the USA is to put in bird feeders during the winter
so the bird have a high energy source of food. What I need explained
is how anyone in their right mind (no offense intended) would ever
conceive of making a sweet desert/pudding out of something so nasty.

In the USA, sometimes cake frosting is made from mixing food coloring
and sugar with vegitable shortening (shortening: vegetable oil that
has been saturated or hydrogenated to make it the consistency of lard
or soft butter). For most baking only a very small amount of
shortening or vegetable oil is added to keep cookies soft, and pastry
crusts flaky. But trying to make a sweet desert out of a dried up
piece of beef fat, I can only suppose the person was suffering from a
bad case of ergot poisoning (which is about the same as saying they
were on LSD). Of course, I've never tried it, so I really shouldn't
complain, it could be good, but as good as it may be, it sounds like a
heart attack waiting to happen. (no offense intended)

More on pudding-
Pudding in the USA:
Chocolate And Coconut Pudding Recipe

2 cups milk, scalded
1/2 cup sugar
3/4 cup chocolate, grated
1/2 cup coconut, grated
3 eggs

Mix eggs, coconut, chocolate, and sugar together. Add slowly the
scalded milk. Pour into a pudding dish. Set pudding dish in a roasting
pan partially filled with hot water. Bake in moderate oven for about
45 to 50 minutes.

[Although, this recipe doesn't say so, it's common to refrigeate the
pudding for a few hours before eating it.]


Pudding in the UK???:
Suet Pudding Recipe

3 cups sifted flour
1 teaspoon soda
1 teaspoon cinnamon
1 teaspoon cloves
1/2 teaspoon grated nutmeg
1 teaspoon salt
1 cup suet
1 cup sour milk
1 cup molasses
1 cup raisins

Mix and sift the dry ingredients, keeping one-half cup of flour to
sift over the raisins. Chop the suet fine and add it to the milk and
molasses. Combine the two mixtures and add the raisins which have been
dredged with flour. Grease pudding molds or baking powder cans and
fill two-thirds full of the mixture. Cover and steam for three hours.
Serve with hard sauce or any desired liquid sauce. 

Treacle Pudding Recipe:
http://www.guyskitchen.co.uk/Treacle%20pudding.htm

Quite a difference.


>  
> > This cookie/biscuit/cracker thing is one of the things I find most 
> > confusing. I know what you mean by biscuit but the British biscuit 
> > doesn't seem to me to be an exact equivalent of the cookie.
 
> 
> > Muffin is another one. When we moved to Tokyo, I leaped on a 
> > display of "English muffins", 
> 

> 
> > But the difference is quite clear. Our muffins are toasted and 
> > eaten  for breakfast or tea, ... whereas your muffins definitely 
> > count as cakes and we wouldn't normally eat them for breakfast.
> 
> ...edited...
> 
> David

Cookies, biscuits, crackers, muffins, buns and rolls-

A cookie is any very sweet disk shaped (although other shapes are
allowed especially at Christmas) food that is given primarily to kids
as a treat; like afterschool milk and cookies. The exception is sweet
wafer cookies which are usually served with an ice cream sundae. 

An English muffin really isn't a muffin to us; we, in the US, always
thought it was odd of you English to call it a muffin when really it
was a biscuit. A biscuit being a very unique bread-like food. The most
common biscuit is the baking powder biscuit (usually made from a
special flour called BisQuick) which looks much like an English muffin
but is smaller and tastes better (most excellent for sopping up roast
beef gravy). Then there is what you call a bun, which we call a roll
or a dinner roll. A roll could also be referred to as a bun, but most
often the only bread that is referred to as a bun is the hamburger or
hotdog bun.

Now we come to the muffin. A muffin is like a cup cake. If you
remember the small cakes that contained the sleeping potion that
Crabbe and Goyle ate in the movie; those were cup cakes. Expect
muffins, while still sweet and cake-like, are heavier, oilier, larger,
and somewhat more bread-like, usually having some kind of fruit (blue
berries, raisins, apples, strawberries, etc....) added and possibly
nuts mixed in. These are frequently eaten instead of a real breakfast.
Generally considered healthier that coffee and a pastry, but in
reality are very oily, and high in fat and calories. They are also
considered more trendy and sophisticated than common pastries and
donuts; basic yuppy food.

And for David's reference, we dunk our cookies, donuts, and sometimes
pastries in our milk and coffee. Not considered very sophisticated but
oh so yummy. Nothing like a plain old fashioned donut dunked into some
rich creamy coffee.

Just a few more thoughts.

bboy_mn




From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Wed Mar 19 22:01:25 2003
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David)
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 22:01:25 -0000
Subject: This ANNOYING Poetry ad
In-Reply-To: <b5aoa0+m4tp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b5apbl+6fjp@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "jenp_97" <jenP_97 at y...> 
wrote:
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "melclaros" 
<melclaros at y...>
> wrote:
> > Is this stupid poetry contest never-ending? Yes I know we're 
> > supported by ads but these are cruel and unusual punishment!
> 
> And not only that, but you can't right-click it and hit "ban images
> from this server" because it's a stupid flash ad!!!

I can't do that with any image!  What browser is that?

I can right-click (in IE6) and choose rewind.  That stops it on that 
page.

Also, I found out you can go to 
www.macromedia.com/support/flash/ts/documents/playerfaq.htm#remove
and uninstall Flash Player.  I haven't done that, so I don't know if 
it works or what other effects it may have - presumably some moving 
images you *want* to see may be disabled.

David




From julia at thequiltbug.com  Wed Mar 19 22:15:31 2003
From: julia at thequiltbug.com (Calliope)
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 14:15:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: This ANNOYING Poetry ad
Message-ID: <20030319141532.7745.h014.c011.wm@mail.thequiltbug.com.criticalpath.net>

> And not only that, but you can't right-click it and hit "ban images
> from this server" because it's a stupid flash ad!!!

>I can't do that with any image!? What browser is that?

Usually I hit esc or click "stop" on the browser (Netscape or IE) for most
flashing graphics, but not this one!  Grr!

>>I can right-click (in IE6) and choose rewind.? That stops it on that 
page.

Yay!  I love you for sharing that - this ad gives me a headache.

AD FEEDBACK - at the bottom of each Yahoo page, in very tiny print along with
the TOS and Privacy Policies, there is a link that says "Ad Feedback"...click it
and it takes you to an anon survey about the ads that appear on Yahoo.  I
frequently report this very annoying ad...and so should we all.

Calliope

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Calliopes_fics/
http://www.thedarkarts.org/authorLinks/Calliope/
http://www.riddikulus.org/authorLinks/Calliope/



From elove at academicplanet.com  Wed Mar 19 22:01:18 2003
From: elove at academicplanet.com (Emily Love)
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 16:01:18 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] This ANNOYING Poetry ad
References: <b5ao46+fd4o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <007001c2ee63$127dc300$07c75a42@MyNewToy>

melclaros: 
  
  Is this stupid poetry contest never-ending? Yes I know we're 
  supported by ads but these are cruel and unusual punishment! >>>>>



Hi, my name is Emily.  I am definitely a lurker here.  Been a member of the groups for about a year, I think, and never really said anything.  Might as well speak up now.  The poetry contest doesn't end.  There is a new one every month, and these people are even more annoying once you actually sign up for stuff or put poems on their site.

Well, I guess that's all I have to say for now.  Maybe I'll actually start participating in more conversations soon.  Had a lot of stuff on my plate with college and work and all.  HP is my only chance to relax.

Emily
My Own Little World
http://www.angelfire.com/poetry/emilylove/

Remember youth as you pass by,
As you were once, so once was I,
As I am now, you soon will be,
Prepare to die and follow me.
 

       




From julia at thequiltbug.com  Wed Mar 19 22:23:40 2003
From: julia at thequiltbug.com (Calliope)
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 14:23:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Pies, puddings, biscuits and tarts + rolls, buns, muffins, ...
Message-ID: <20030319142341.4316.h014.c011.wm@mail.thequiltbug.com.criticalpath.net>

"Steve" wrote:

>>And for David's reference, we dunk our cookies, donuts, and sometimes
pastries in our milk and coffee. Not considered very sophisticated but
oh so yummy. Nothing like a plain old fashioned donut dunked into some
rich creamy coffee.

Mmm...and it must be a *Krispy Kreme* donut too!  I guess I'm showing my
Southernness here...but nothing beats a fresh KK donut that has that nice warm
glaze running off the sides, making your fingers all sweet and sticky...yumm
yumm!

We often sold boxes of Krispy Kremes for school fundraisers, and my parents
would get up really early to go into the next city (the closest KK shop) to pick
up the donuts, and I'd ride with them and eat half a fresh-out-of-the-oven-box
before we got home.

--Calliope (who will be larger than Dudley Dursley if she doesn't stop thinking
about those lovely, wonderful Krispy Kremes...hmmm)

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Calliopes_fics/
http://www.thedarkarts.org/authorLinks/Calliope/
http://www.riddikulus.org/authorLinks/Calliope/



From trinity61us at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 19 22:39:43 2003
From: trinity61us at yahoo.com (alex fox)
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 14:39:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Pies, puddings, biscuits and tarts + rolls, buns, muffins, ...
In-Reply-To: <20030319142341.4316.h014.c011.wm@mail.thequiltbug.com.criticalpath.net>
Message-ID: <20030319223943.65435.qmail@web14901.mail.yahoo.com>


<"Steve wrote
<Mmm...and it must be a *Krispy Kreme* donut too!  I guess <I'm showing my
<Southernness here...but nothing beats a fresh KK donut that <has that nice warm
<glaze running off the sides, making your fingers all sweet <and sticky...yumm


I, unfortunatly, have have never had the pleasure of a Krispy Kreme. I wan't to try some, but in Odessa, Texas, we don't have them!(sobs!)

Alex, whos taste-buds are denied!

 


 
Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
var lrec_target="_top";var lrec_URL = new Array();lrec_URL[1] = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.3079700.4403303.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1707544108:HM/A=1430287/R=0/id=flashurl/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405";var link="javascript:LRECopenWindow(1)";var lrec_flashfile = 'http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/intl_library_of_poetry/yahoo_300x250.swf?clickTAG='+link+'';var lrec_altURL = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.3079700.4403303.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1707544108:HM/A=1430287/R=1/id=altimgurl/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405";var lrec_altimg = "http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/intl_library_of_poetry/yahoo_300x250.gif";var lrec_width = 300;var lrec_height = 250;

________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________

Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the group's Admin Files!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/

Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying!

Is your message...
An announcement of merchandise, news etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements.
Movie-related? Send it to HPFGU-Movie.
Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups.
None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter.
Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com

Unsubscribing? Email HPFGU-OTChatter-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
____________________________________________________________ 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 




---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From mckosvc at bmts.com  Thu Mar 20 00:47:54 2003
From: mckosvc at bmts.com (ovc88guelph)
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 00:47:54 -0000
Subject: Pies, puddings, biscuits and tarts
In-Reply-To: <b5a230+kc84@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b5b33q+3181@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "David" <dfrankiswork at n...> 
wrote:
 
> > Muffin is another one. When we moved to Tokyo, I leaped on a 
> display 
> > of "English muffins", wondering that such short-lived bakery 
items 
> > could get as far as Japan, only then to be mystified that they 
> > weren't made in England at all. So why were they 
> labelled, "English"?
> 
As Steve mentioned, "English muffins" here are more like a crumpet. 
They are two sided (ie to make them crumpet-like, one has to cut 
them in half. 
> But, I believe, Americans eat filling sweet food for breakfast 
that 
> we wouldn't, except, perhaps, on holiday (er (or uh), that's 
> vacation to you, um, y'all)?  Buttermilk pancakes and maple syrup 
> springs to mind.
Hoho! Don't I wish pancakes (and crepes) with syrup were holiday 
foods! We have them more often then cereal!
>  
> > Here's another one. Brits as well. What's the difference between 
a 
> > tart and a pie?
> 
Hmm. This is certainly different. A dessert pie (fruit/custard) can 
have pastry on the bottom only, or on top and bottom. It is large 
(dinner plate size). A tart generally has pastry only on the bottom, 
but is small (muffin size).  However, my granny made "jam tarts" 
which were essentially jam, raisins and nuts completely enclosed in 
pastry, but baked on a flat pan ("cookie sheet"), not in a pie 
plate. 
    I'm curious about how people refer to meals. In my family, we 
had breakfast, lunch and supper/dinner. These last two were 
synonyms. When I moved to a rural area, I was quite horrified when  
repairmen would tell me to expect them after dinner, by which they 
meant "after lunch". And after a late night gathering or reception, 
a "lunch" would be served about 11 pm. Apparently, I have passed my 
confusion on to the next generation. My children often wake one 
another up by shouting "Wake up! We're having pancakes for supper!"




From Malady579 at hotmail.com  Thu Mar 20 01:22:09 2003
From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody)
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 01:22:09 -0000
Subject: To red carpet or not (warning: in rant mode)
Message-ID: <b5b541+4d83@eGroups.com>

Ok.  Some might know I am a fashion history major.  I just get a kick
out of being able to study something so frivolous yet so universal.  I
mean, every culture adorns themselves some how.

Well, I also adore the Oscars.  *Major* fashion night.  I have tapes
the pre-show, the actual show, and then Joan River's fashion review
*every* year for years and watch them over and over.  And God love
Joan, she never lets me down.  She has no problem telling someone they
look exactly the way they do.  Maybe I just love frank people, but
sometimes things just need to be said.  I mean they have mirrors.
They should use them.  But I digress.  Point of all that is to say,
Oscar day my life stops in full, and it is the one day of the year I
will not answer the phone or anything.  In my fashion history
viewpoint that I am cultivating, the Oscars are a big deal.

So now comes this year.  Maybe I am misunderstanding, but isn't the
movie industry a major part of the *entertainment* industry?  Their
goal in life is to distract us and entertain us.  That is what they
do.  So, I must say I am now quite disappointed they have shut down
the red carpet.

The reason: They say it is too frivolous given the state of the world
affairs.

Oh, come on.

The whole thing is frivolous.  That is the reason I watch it.  It is
too much fun to see them be all serious and "real" actors.  Say all
those words their publicists hammer into them.  Then they try to dress
so distinguishing yet as daring as they can even if they are 60.
Gracious, some of those women either need plastic surgery or need to
admit to themselves that their d?collet? is not so appealing as it
once was.

Ok, I will say.  Some of those actors and actresses *are* really smart
and do not need the spoon fed words.  And some are, in fact, good
actors in their own right.  And some are even honorable and not trampy
with how they carry themselves.  But honestly.  The whole industry is
silly.  And that is why we love it.  You have the combination of those
that are truly talented, well trained, and know the difference between
Verdi and Wagner mixed with the brainless it-girl of the moment in
some daring Versace who bats her eyes down the red carpet trying to
keep the double sided tape down.

I mean I do not sit and watch the Oscars each year so they can tell me
which movie was the best all year.  Lord knows, I do not need them to
*tell* me which one was best.  I can figure that out for myself.  I
watch to see the social dynamics of it all.  Watch such and so actress
try to avoid the such and so actor who she use to be married to, and
then watch the little entertainment reporters try to push them
together.  "Oh I see her.  Oh I see him.  Oh they are not looking at
each other.  There might be sparks.  Oh wait, her publicist is pushing
her past him.  Oh there might be a look.  Oh yes, there it is!  She
hates him.  Oh, that gesture is not too nice at all..."

Yes, it is high schoolish.  Yes, it is stupid.  But it is always
entertaining.  Let them pretend that the world cares what they do.
Let them pretend that their entrance at the Academy Awards is
momentous.  Let them think we truly care who's arm they come down the
red carpet on.  Let them pretend that the world turns around whether
or not they even walk down that carpet.  And if they ever walk down
when it is "inappropriate," well then.  The world stands still you
know.  How dare they be frivolous and ignorant of the world's affairs.
 Oh please.  It is like Harry Potter without Quidditch.  You need
these things even more in times of trouble.  For they themselves do
not reflect the world.  They are our escape.

But that is my rant.  I do not expect it to be anyone else's.  In
fact, I do not expect many to agree with me.

It's just...to me, are we all to hold our breath until it is over?
Are we all to wear black and nothing at all flattering until Iraq and
us are friends?  Are we to suspend all parties, celebrations, and
well-earned pats on the back, until every last one of our troops are
home?

The world, and to a degree our mindset, does in fact reflect in the
entertainment industry.  It is not just an outlet as I said before.
It is the loudest and most watched industry for trends.  I guess I
fear, if the Academy Awards says people should act as sedate as the
industry seems to want to be portrayed, then the world will become a
very depressing place.  That is what I fear.  We should not be
ignorant and be skipping down the halls, but then again, we should not
reflect each moment and sit transfixed in front of the TV watching CNN
to be serious good citizens.

I guess the Academy is trying to find that balance.  I guess all my
ranting here is to say:  I don't think they have.


Melody




From heidit at netbox.com  Thu Mar 20 01:31:23 2003
From: heidit at netbox.com (heidit at netbox.com)
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 20:31:23 EST
Subject: James and the Secret of the Peach (was The morality question)
Message-ID: <1c6.6ea331b.2baa73eb@aol.com>

Barb write:

> >since we know that JKR likes Dahl, and 
> >since it's not difficult to see her homage to Dahl in things like 
> >her descriptions of the Dursleys (think Aunt Spiker and Aunt 
> >Sponge.

Which leads me to another question, which I've always wanted to incorporate 
into a crossover fanfic, but have never had the time to do...

Given that we know that when Harry became orphaned, James' parents were dead, 
is it possible that they were killed by a runaway rhino when he was ickle, 
and he was then sent to live with his aunts, Spiker and Sponge, and then 
escaped in a giant peach to NYC, thanks to a bag of magic seeds given him by 
Dumbledore, and that Dahl was just protecting his wizarding education when he 
ended the book by saying that James Trotter (small change from his real last 
name) was living in the peach pit in NYC?

Well? It could happen...if the wizarding world, and Dalh's universe, were 
both real...


Heidi


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From melclaros at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 20 02:16:30 2003
From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros)
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 02:16:30 -0000
Subject: This ANNOYING Poetry ad
In-Reply-To: <20030319141532.7745.h014.c011.wm@mail.thequiltbug.com.criticalpath.net>
Message-ID: <b5b89u+frsf@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Calliope" <julia at t...> wrote:
> the TOS and Privacy Policies, there is a link that says "Ad 
Feedback"...click it
> and it takes you to an anon survey about the ads that appear on 
Yahoo.  I
> frequently report this very annoying ad...and so should we all.
> 

Done and done! Thanks. I've reported it now, I doubt it will help but 
I can't hurt! I can get rid of it with the "right click/rewind" 
option but that has to be done EVERY page. 

Mel




From MsSeverusLucius at aol.com  Thu Mar 20 02:56:20 2003
From: MsSeverusLucius at aol.com (MsSeverusLucius at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 21:56:20 EST
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] To red carpet or not (warning: in rant mode)
Message-ID: <fb.3b14b5ba.2baa87d4@aol.com>

to be brief,
as i am intently listening to (never good) news,

i hope they all wear black...twill be lovely
as the Oscars should be.
~shahara
(who is an offgrid simple-living homesteader, oddly in love with fashion, 
even tho i only shop at thrift stores!)



From urbana at charter.net  Thu Mar 20 03:33:03 2003
From: urbana at charter.net (Anne)
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 03:33:03 -0000
Subject: Pies, puddings, biscuits and tarts + rolls, buns, muffins, ...
In-Reply-To: <20030319142341.4316.h014.c011.wm@mail.thequiltbug.com.criticalpath.net>
Message-ID: <b5bcpf+a0gb@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Calliope" <julia at t...> wrote:
> "Steve" wrote:
> 
> >>And for David's reference, we dunk our cookies, donuts, and 
sometimes
> pastries in our milk and coffee. Not considered very sophisticated 
but
> oh so yummy. Nothing like a plain old fashioned donut dunked into 
some
> rich creamy coffee.
> 
> Mmm...and it must be a *Krispy Kreme* donut too!  I guess I'm 
showing my
> Southernness here...but nothing beats a fresh KK donut that has 
that nice warm
> glaze running off the sides, making your fingers all sweet and 
sticky...yumm
> yumm!
> 

AAAAAH you're killing me ... No Krispy Kreme places here, but I have 
heard rumors we might get *two* outlets when KK finally arrives later 
this year. I'll have to find out what all the fuss is about.

 > --Calliope (who will be larger than Dudley Dursley if she doesn't 
stop thinking
> about those lovely, wonderful Krispy Kremes...hmmm)
> 

You are reminding me that I *DID NOT* get a chance to buy any Girl 
Scout cookies this year!!! I was not accosted by even one Girl 
Scout... how will I live without my THIN MINTS???!?!?!

Anne U
(off to get a blueberry MUFFIN and some tea)





From mdemeran at hotmail.com  Thu Mar 20 04:11:37 2003
From: mdemeran at hotmail.com (Meg Demeranville)
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 04:11:37 -0000
Subject: Krispy Kreme (WAS: Pies, puddings, biscuits and tarts + rolls, 
In-Reply-To: <20030319223943.65435.qmail@web14901.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <b5bf1p+p8l1@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, alex fox <trinity61us at y...> 
wrote:
> 
> <"Steve wrote
> <Mmm...and it must be a *Krispy Kreme* donut too!  I guess <I'm 
showing my
> <Southernness here...but nothing beats a fresh KK donut that <has 
that nice warm
> <glaze running off the sides, making your fingers all sweet <and 
sticky...yumm
> 
> 
> I, unfortunatly, have have never had the pleasure of a Krispy 
Kreme. I wan't to try some, but in Odessa, Texas, we don't have them!
(sobs!)
> 
> Alex, whos taste-buds are denied!

Poor Alex. I grew up with hot Krispy Kreme donuts all the time. 
There are stories my father use to tell about how his mother worked 
at the local Krispy Kreme with her sister who's husband owned the 
local store. It's even said that true Mobilians are known because 
the lady at Krispy Kreme swears under her breath at them when they 
go to the Krispy Kreme at 2 am to order hot donuts on the way home 
from a Mardi Gras ball. I always knew that my parents picked up 
donuts after every ball they attended for us the next morning (and 
if we were still up, we got hot donuts) but until recently, I didn't 
know how true that statement was. I have found that the Krispy Kreme 
lady is really there at 2 am post-ball when only a hot donut and the 
hot chocolate is the only thing that will do. 

So go find a Krispy Kreme, they are worth it. (www.krispykreme.com)

Meg (who's great aunt died yesterday, leaving a fortune in Krispy 
Kreme money, which is why this thread amused me so much)

Read the untold story of life as a first year medical student at:
As The Scalpel Turns - http://www.livejournal.com/users/megd/ 




From joym999 at aol.com  Thu Mar 20 04:22:58 2003
From: joym999 at aol.com (joywitch_m_curmudgeon)
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 04:22:58 -0000
Subject: This ANNOYING Poetry ad
In-Reply-To: <b5ao46+fd4o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b5bfn2+ldbt@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "melclaros" <melclaros at y...> 
wrote:
> Is this stupid poetry contest never-ending? Yes I know we're 
> supported by ads but these are cruel and unusual punishment!

It gives me a headache.  One way to deal with it is to go to the 
Messages screen and choose "expand messages."   That gives you about 
15 or 20 posts on the same screen, without the flash ads.

--Joywitch




From jenP_97 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 20 04:56:50 2003
From: jenP_97 at yahoo.com (jenp_97)
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 04:56:50 -0000
Subject: Browsers, was Re: This ANNOYING Poetry ad
In-Reply-To: <b5bfn2+ldbt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b5bhmi+lff2@eGroups.com>

David asked about my browser that blocks 
images...

Well... it's Mozilla.  The name might look 
familiar because the people at Mozilla were 
the ones that came up with Netscape, and 
Netscape still relies on Mozilla code.  
However, M came up with their own browser - 
it takes up less hard drive space, and has 
lots of nifty features such as tabs and 
stuff (and there were some things that the 
latest edition of Netscape took off, like 
print preview or something, that M decided 
to keep).  It's basically the same as 
Netscape, but nicer about spam.

For example, Mozilla has a nifty feature 
where you can right-click on a typical ad 
and click "block images from this server".  
This is GREAT, because most of your larger 
sites have all their ads located on ONE 
server.  So, do this to one ad, and you 
ban ALL ads from that site, no matter 
where you are on the web.  Only bad thing: 
it doesn't block flash videos/ads. 

Mozilla can also stop pop-up windows from 
loading.  VERY nice feature.

It also has "tabs", which I can't 
efficiently explain, but are very cool.

However, all is not golden.  Unfortunately, 
Mozilla doesn't work with some sites.  So 
you can't get rid of IE or Netscape, 
because you need them to view some sites - 
especially sites with lots of video.  There 
are also a few bugs (it is either still in 
beta or just out of it), so sometimes it'll 
crash.

All things considered, I like Mozilla's 
features best, so I put up with the yuck.

-Jen P., who wonders why she always seems 
to have to give the kids a bath when her 
husband has to work at night...




From boggles at earthlink.net  Thu Mar 20 07:47:29 2003
From: boggles at earthlink.net (Jennifer Boggess Ramon)
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 01:47:29 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Pies, puddings, biscuits and tarts
In-Reply-To: <b5a230+kc84@eGroups.com>
References: <b5a230+kc84@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <p05200f01ba9f205fcc71@[192.168.1.100]>

At 3:24 PM +0000 3/19/03, David wrote:
>
>Are crackers baked twice?  This is in my mind the essential
>definition of a biscuit.

Hmm . . . a sweet quickbread baked twice would be called "biscotti" 
here and would generally be served with an espresso coffee or one of 
its derivatives.

>  > Here's another one. Brits as well. What's the difference between a
>  > tart and a pie?
>
>A tart has no lid, only a base, and the filling is sweet.  If the
>filling is savoury, or there is a lid (base or not), it's probably a
>pie, though some things with savoury filling and a base may be
>quiche or flan.  To confuse things, flans can be sweet as well.
>Clear?  Good.

Well, an apple pie has a base and a lid, and it's sweet, but a 
strawberry pie has no lid, just the base, and it's definitely a pie, 
not a tart.  Ditto a lemon meringue pie, or any meringue pie, for 
that matter.

Here, a pie is baked in a pie plate - flat bottom, sloping sides, all 
one piece.  A tart is baked in either a springform pan or a tart pan 
- flat bottom, straight sides; the sides can be removed for serving. 
(A springform pan has fairly high sides; a tart pan is usually pretty 
shallow.)  Pies have not only a bottom crust but a crust along the 
sides, and usually some sort of fluted or crimped edge to the sides. 
Tarts have short sides or almost no side at all, and no flute or 
crimp.

-- 

  - Boggles, aka J. C. B. Ramon			boggles at earthlink.net
"It is not knowledge, but the act of learning, not possession but the 
act of getting there, which grants the greatest enjoyment. "
	- Gauss, in a Letter to Bolyai, 1808.



From macloudt at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Mar 20 10:26:39 2003
From: macloudt at yahoo.co.uk (Mary Ann)
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 10:26:39 -0000
Subject: Birthday Greetings!
Message-ID: <b5c50v+b0fk@eGroups.com>

:::::the room is bursting with streamers and balloons.  Dizzy Elf, 
whose hands have now sufficiently healed, carries two large cakes 
into the room:::::

Another double birthday, yay!  Today's birthday honorees are Laura 
and Wanda the Witch!  Greetings can be sent to the list or to Laura 
at animalsbaby_1999 at yahoo.com and Wanda at witchwanda at yahoo.com

I hope you both have a fabulous birthday and that you're spoiled with 
HP goodies. :)

Mary Ann
(off to bake a RL cake for her son who's 5 today)




From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Thu Mar 20 13:04:58 2003
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David)
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 13:04:58 -0000
Subject: Custard pies
In-Reply-To: <20030319200805.22256.qmail@web14005.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <b5ce9q+bd2k@eGroups.com>

Lina wrote:

> It's French, so it should follow their rules. 

Oh, just like international diplomacy, then.

D




From prittylina at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 20 13:30:48 2003
From: prittylina at yahoo.com (L)
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 13:30:48 -0000
Subject: Custard pies
In-Reply-To: <b5ce9q+bd2k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b5cfq8+ma98@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "David" <dfrankiswork at n...> 
wrote:
> Lina wrote:
> 
> > It's French, so it should follow their rules. 
> 
> Oh, just like international diplomacy, then.

Oh, precisely. ;D Americans would do a lot better with a good helping 
of French cooking -- just look at how happy people are in Louisiana. 


L






From eloiseherisson at aol.com  Thu Mar 20 13:46:29 2003
From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloise_herisson)
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 13:46:29 -0000
Subject: Pies, puddings, biscuits and tarts + rolls, buns, muffins, ...
In-Reply-To: <b5ap9v+jctn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b5cgnl+ra4g@eGroups.com>

> bboy_mn:
> 
> SUET!
> OK, your going to have to explain suet to me. I know what suet is;
> it's a big nasty dried out piece of beef fat. The only thing I've 
seen
> suet used for in the USA is to put in bird feeders during the winter
> so the bird have a high energy source of food. What I need explained
> is how anyone in their right mind (no offense intended) would ever
> conceive of making a sweet desert/pudding out of something so nasty.

Yeah. Well. I don't eat the stuff personally, if I can help it. But 
that's because I don't eat beef products.

The suet we use for puddings is what's called "shredded suet". I 
presume that it has previously been rendered and is then grated or 
whatever into little bits. I won't tell you what I think it looks 
like! It's a little like long grain rice in appearance (do you use 
that classification?)These days you can also get vegetarian suet, 
which is what I use, although the only things I ever make with it are 
Christmas pudding and mincemeat(the stuff we put in mince pies at 
Christmas).

Suet pastry is generally not very (at all?) sweet, just as you can 
make a sweet pie/tart/whatever with unsweetened pastry. It is also 
different in texture from normal pastry, not as short, more doughy, I 
suppose.

The steak and kidney pie to which David referred is made in a pudding 
basin, lined with suet pastry and then filled with meat and gravy. 
All suet puddings are, I believe, steamed.

> 
> In the USA, sometimes cake frosting is made from mixing food 
coloring
> and sugar with vegitable shortening (shortening: vegetable oil that
> has been saturated or hydrogenated to make it the consistency of 
lard
> or soft butter). 


We, of course, call it icing (as in the analogy - 'that's the icing 
on the cake'):-)

British icing is made, traditionally, from either plain icing sugar 
(I forget offhand what you call it) with water, to make a thin, soft 
icing, suitable for sponge cakes, or with egg white, which makes a 
really hard coating which can be piped, moulded, etc.
Recently a softer type which I think is made with glycerin has become 
the norm for celebration cakes. This can also be moulded, etc and is 
available in packets ready-,ade, even ready-rolled, which is a boon 
and a blessing to men.


> More on pudding-
> Pudding in the USA:
> Chocolate And Coconut Pudding Recipe
> 
> 2 cups milk, scalded
> 1/2 cup sugar
> 3/4 cup chocolate, grated
> 1/2 cup coconut, grated
> 3 eggs
> 
> Mix eggs, coconut, chocolate, and sugar together. Add slowly the
> scalded milk. Pour into a pudding dish. Set pudding dish in a 
roasting
> pan partially filled with hot water. Bake in moderate oven for about
> 45 to 50 minutes.

This is basically, as I suspected, a variant on what I would call egg-
custard.
Must try it! ;-)


> Pudding in the UK???:
> Suet Pudding Recipe
> 
<snip>
> Quite a difference.

And clearly from an American source as we measure dry ingredients by 
weight, not volume. And don't have molasses.

What's a hard sauce? 

<>> Cookies, biscuits, crackers, muffins, buns and rolls-
> 
> A cookie is any very sweet disk shaped (although other shapes are
> allowed especially at Christmas) food that is given primarily to 
kids
> as a treat; like afterschool milk and cookies. The exception is 
sweet
> wafer cookies which are usually served with an ice cream sundae. 
> 
> An English muffin really isn't a muffin to us; we, in the US, always
> thought it was odd of you English to call it a muffin when really it
> was a biscuit. A biscuit being a very unique bread-like food.

But nowhere near as odd as you calling something a biscuit that 
clearly isn't! ;-)

 The most
> common biscuit is the baking powder biscuit (usually made from a
> special flour called BisQuick) which looks much like an English 
muffin
> but is smaller and tastes better (most excellent for sopping up 
roast
> beef gravy). 

That's what Yorkshire puddings are for.
Which, of course, are *not* made with suet.
You wouldn't like us to be consistent, would you?

I think in the past we decided that a biscuit was closely related to 
a scone.


>Then there is what you call a bun, which we call a roll
> or a dinner roll. A roll could also be referred to as a bun, but 
most
> often the only bread that is referred to as a bun is the hamburger 
or
> hotdog bun.

Mmm.
I think there may be some regional variations here. I would certainly 
refer to a roll as a roll. Or possibly a bap, if it were big, soft 
and round.

Personally, I think of a bun as being sweet (unless containing a 
burger or hot-dog). We have something called the iced bun, which is a 
sort of largish finger roll (bit like a hot-dog bun), with soft icing 
on the top.
Otherwise, Chelsea buns, currant buns, etc, I think are all sweet. 
But as I say, there could be some variation on that.

> 
> Now we come to the muffin. A muffin is like a cup cake. 

Yep. As I think I indicated, we're very familiar with these over here 
now. In fact I have a packet of blueberry muffins in the kitchen as I 
speak.

~Eloise




From eloiseherisson at aol.com  Thu Mar 20 14:14:56 2003
From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloise_herisson)
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 14:14:56 -0000
Subject: Meal names (was: Re: Pies, puddings, biscuits and tarts)
In-Reply-To: <b5b33q+3181@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b5cid0+bh63@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "ovc88guelph" <mckosvc at b...> 
wrote:

<>>     I'm curious about how people refer to meals. In my family, we 
> had breakfast, lunch and supper/dinner. These last two were 
> synonyms. When I moved to a rural area, I was quite horrified when  
> repairmen would tell me to expect them after dinner, by which they 
> meant "after lunch". And after a late night gathering or reception, 
> a "lunch" would be served about 11 pm. Apparently, I have passed my 
> confusion on to the next generation. My children often wake one 
> another up by shouting "Wake up! We're having pancakes for supper!"


Sorry, I don't know your name.

We have breakfast, lunch and dinner.
I grew up having breakfast, dinner and tea.

It's partly a class thing (viz. I'm a snob) and partly regional. 
Often I get confused and have breakfast, lunch and tea and I think I 
frequently refer to the children's evening meal as "tea".

Lunch and dinner are "U". Dinner and tea are "non-U" and also common 
usage, for example, in the north of England where I grew up.

Having said that, I also note that the terribly middle-class children 
in Enid Blyton's books always had dinner in the middle of the day. 
And it's normal to speak of school dinners.

<quick dive into the book shelf>

Ah-ha!
Nancy Mitford:

"*Dinner*. U-speakers eat *lunch* in the middle of the day 
(*luncheon* is old-fashioned U) and *dinner* in the evening; if a U-
speaker feels that what he is eating is a travesty of his dinner, he 
may appropriately call it *supper*. Non-U speakers (also U-children 
and U-dogs) on the other hand, have their *dinner* in the middle of 
the day. *Evening meal* is non-U"

When I was a child, my neighbours were evidently also non-U. I can 
remember being out in the street playing and my mother shouting to me 
to come in for my dinner. One of the other children snottily 
said, "It's not dinner, it's lunch!", which remark probably set off a 
lifetime's interest in these vagueries.

Of course, it's largely a matter of custom and fashion. I seem to 
recall that in Jane Austen, neither meal times nor names coincide 
with the above. I've also come across supper as meaning a late night 
snack

And what I ate in the evening as a child growing up, was 
technically "high tea", a portmanteau meal consisting of a simple 
cooked dish, with bread and butter and - well, tea, of course, as 
well as pudding (or dessert as we called it) and cakes.

~Eloise






From silveroak_us at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 20 14:57:07 2003
From: silveroak_us at yahoo.com (silveroak_us)
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 14:57:07 -0000
Subject: James and the Secret of the Peach (was The morality question)
In-Reply-To: <1c6.6ea331b.2baa73eb@aol.com>
Message-ID: <b5cks3+kkm2@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, heidit at n... wrote:
> Barb write:
> 
> > >since we know that JKR likes Dahl, and 
> > >since it's not difficult to see her homage to Dahl in things 
like 
> > >her descriptions of the Dursleys (think Aunt Spiker and Aunt 
> > >Sponge.

         <major snippage>

> Well? It could happen...if the wizarding world, and Dalh's 
universe, were 
> both real...
> 
> 
> Heidi

         Now me:

What do you mean, "IF?"

  **  Martin Miggs, the Mad Muggle  **




From lupinesque at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 20 15:05:34 2003
From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 15:05:34 -0000
Subject: puddings
In-Reply-To: <b5cgnl+ra4g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b5clbu+bf45@eGroups.com>

Eloise wrote:

> This is basically, as I suspected, a variant on what I would call 
egg-
> custard.
> Must try it! ;-)

A stovetop, simpler version of chocolate (US) pudding:

2/3 cup sugar
1/4 cup corn starch
3 tablespoons unsweetened cocoa
1/8 teaspoon salt
2 3/4 cups milk
2 tablespoons margarine or butter (I leave this out and it's just as 
good)
1 teaspoon vanilla

In medium saucepan combine sugar, corn starch, cocoa and salt. 
Gradually stir in milk until smooth. 

Stirring constantly, bring to boil over medium heat and boil 1 
minute. Remove from heat. Stir in margarine and vanilla. 

Pour into serving bowls; cover; refrigerate.
 
Makes 2 cups 

Or, of course, buy packaged pudding and follow directions.  But this 
is cheaper and not much more complicated.  I make it often, and it 
counteracts the effects of Dementors admirably.

Amy
who wouldn't eat suet for love or money




From yalithb223 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 20 16:10:29 2003
From: yalithb223 at yahoo.com (yalithb223)
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 16:10:29 -0000
Subject: James and the Secret of the Peach (was The morality question)
In-Reply-To: <1c6.6ea331b.2baa73eb@aol.com>
Message-ID: <b5cp5l+6f39@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, heidit at n... wrote:
> Barb write:

> Given that we know that when Harry became orphaned, James' parents 
were dead, 
> is it possible that they were killed by a runaway rhino when he was ickle, 
> and he was then sent to live with his aunts, Spiker and Sponge, and then 
> escaped in a giant peach to NYC, thanks to a bag of magic seeds given him 
by 
> Dumbledore, and that Dahl was just protecting his wizarding education 
when he 
> ended the book by saying that James Trotter (small change from his real 
last 
> name) was living in the peach pit in NYC?

How cool!  What a great idea.  I think it would make an excellent fanfic.  We 
know so little about James and Lily as children (I'm always interested in other 
people's ideas about it!)  And since JKR and Dahl's worlds are so similar this 
could be realy interesting. 

Let me know if you ever write it!  I'd love to read it!
Jessica I.




From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 20 18:17:40 2003
From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent)
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 18:17:40 -0000
Subject: The morality question
In-Reply-To: <b5aina+mq3l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b5d0k4+uepv@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "joywitch_m_curmudgeon" 
<joym999 at a...> wrote:
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "psychic_serpent" wrote an 
> extremely excellent post about morality in children's literature.  
> Thanks, Barb.  Just one question.  You say:
> 
> > since we know that JKR likes Dahl, and 
> > since it's not difficult to see her homage to Dahl in things 
> > like her descriptions of the Dursleys (think Aunt Spiker and 
> > Aunt Sponge.
> 
> I totally agree -- the first time I read SS, the Dursleys made me 
> think of Matilda's parents.  But, do we actually know that JKR 
> likes Dahl?  I mean, has she said so in an interview, or is this 
> just what we've surmissed from her (pretty obvious) 
> references/tributes to Dahl?
 
According to this interview:

http://slj.reviewsnews.com/index.asp?
layout=articleArchive&articleId=CA153024&publication=slj

she is very flattered to be compared to Dahl and calls him "an 
absolute master at what he did."  OTOH, she says that she read 
Charlie and the Chocolate Factory at the age of eleven, but not 
later works like Matilda and The Twits (which, oddly enough, makes 
repeated use of the word "Mugglewumps").  So it's possible that one 
should really look to CATCF for similarities to HP characters.  I, 
for one, know that I cannot read about Violet Beauregard without 
thinking of Dudley, and it would be very interesting to do a 
comparison of Dumbledore and Willy Wonka (remember--Dumbledore's 
passwords are always sweets).

--Barb

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent
http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb




From golden_faile at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 20 19:23:48 2003
From: golden_faile at yahoo.com (golden faile)
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 11:23:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Birthday Greetings!
In-Reply-To: <b5c50v+b0fk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20030320192348.22336.qmail@web41108.mail.yahoo.com>


Happy Birthday Wanda and Laura. Hope they are very special indeed!
 
Laila
 
 
 Mary Ann <macloudt at yahoo.co.uk> wrote::::::the room is bursting with streamers and balloons.  Dizzy Elf, 
whose hands have now sufficiently healed, carries two large cakes 
into the room:::::

Another double birthday, yay!  Today's birthday honorees are Laura 
and Wanda the Witch!  Greetings can be sent to the list or to Laura 
at animalsbaby_1999 at yahoo.com and Wanda at witchwanda at yahoo.com

I hope you both have a fabulous birthday and that you're spoiled with 
HP goodies. :)

Mary Ann
(off to bake a RL cake for her son who's 5 today)


Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
var lrec_target="_top";var lrec_URL = new Array();lrec_URL[1] = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.3079700.4403303.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1707544108:HM/A=1430287/R=0/id=flashurl/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405";var link="javascript:LRECopenWindow(1)";var lrec_flashfile = 'http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/intl_library_of_poetry/yahoo_300x250.swf?clickTAG='+link+'';var lrec_altURL = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.3079700.4403303.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1707544108:HM/A=1430287/R=1/id=altimgurl/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405";var lrec_altimg = "http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/intl_library_of_poetry/yahoo_300x250.gif";var lrec_width = 300;var lrec_height = 250;
________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________

Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the group's Admin Files!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/

Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying!

Is your message...
An announcement of merchandise, news etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements.
Movie-related? Send it to HPFGU-Movie.
Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups.
None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter.
Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com

Unsubscribing? Email HPFGU-OTChatter-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
____________________________________________________________ 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From lynntownsend100 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 20 22:30:02 2003
From: lynntownsend100 at yahoo.com (Lynn)
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 14:30:02 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Odd(but cute!)story regarding my cat "Crookshanks"
Message-ID: <20030320223002.10506.qmail@web41401.mail.yahoo.com>


 
 Lynn <lynntownsend100 at yahoo.com> wrote:
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 07:52:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: Lynn 
Subject: Odd(but cute!)story regarding my cat "Crookshanks"
(Note:I'd originally sent this out a few months ago,but I thought that this 

group might find it cute.)



    Crookshanks seems to know EXACTLY where his name came from. I'd finally 
gotten a copy of the "Harry Potter" movie yesterday,and last night I popped the tape 

into the machine. As the movie started, C.S. hopped onto the bed right in front of 

the TV and started watching the movie intently,(The TV is on what passes for my 

nightstand)  occasionally turning to me to make some sort of "comment" (The 

chirpy squeak that passes for his meow on most occasions.)I watched him

watch the TV for some time thinking how odd it was.(Yes, he was 

*definately* watching the TV.)Finally an idea occured to me. 

        "Crookshanks,"I told him, "you're watching the wrong movie. Your character

won't show up for a couple of movies yet. This is year 1. 'Crookshanks' doesn't

appear until year 3." after which, he immeadiately lost interest.

       Well, *I* thought it was odd...

 


-Lynn T
 


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From lupinesque at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 21 01:52:09 2003
From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z)
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 01:52:09 -0000
Subject: Birthday Greetings!
In-Reply-To: <20030320192348.22336.qmail@web41108.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <b5dr89+nhm5@eGroups.com>

Happy happy, Wanda and Laura!  I hope it's filled with HPness.

Amy




From urbana at charter.net  Fri Mar 21 02:36:03 2003
From: urbana at charter.net (Anne R Urbanski)
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 20:36:03 -0600
Subject: HELP!! Password problems
Message-ID: <4.2.2.20030320202549.00c56de0@localhost>

I am wondering if anyone besides me is having difficulty signing in on the 
Yahoogroups website. I get email from some of the Yahoo groups I'm in, but 
most of them I read on the website. I tried to sign in several times this 
evening from my home computer, using my Yahoo ID, anneu53714, and suddenly 
the password I've been using for 2 years was declared "invalid". Neither 
caps lock nor number lock is on, and I know I keyed the password correctly 
every time, so I can't figure out what the problem is. I attempted to get 
help from the Yahoo website but found the help file (and the 866 phone 
number it directed me to) incomprehensible. BTW I can't get into my Yahoo 
mail either (of course), and it doesn't matter whether I use Explorer or 
Netscape, I'm still shut out :-(  Unfortunately this means I am unable to 
approve someone who wants to join a group I moderate so I hope the 
co-moderator on that group (Lynn, that means you) can approve him. Plus I'm 
missing out on lots of messages ...(HPFGU folks, don't run too far ahead of 
me, please?? Yes, I know the OoP covers were released today!! I vote for 
the US kids' edition :-)

Anyway -- if anyone can help me figure this out, please email mail me 
privately - urbana AT charter DOT net. Thanks much!

Anne (U)


"Ah, music ... A magic beyond all we do here!"
- Albus Dumbledore, "Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone"

"Anyone could be the one to change your life" -- Monte Montgomery
http://www.montemontgomery.com








From urbana at charter.net  Fri Mar 21 03:15:25 2003
From: urbana at charter.net (Anne)
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 03:15:25 -0000
Subject: The morality question
In-Reply-To: <b5d0k4+uepv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b5e04d+59om@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "psychic_serpent" 
<psychic_serpent at y...> wrote:
> [JKR] is very flattered to be compared to Dahl and calls him "an 
> absolute master at what he did."  ... So it's possible that one 
> should really look to CATCF for similarities to HP characters.  I, 
> for one, know that I cannot read about Violet Beauregard without 
> thinking of Dudley, and it would be very interesting to do a 
> comparison of Dumbledore and Willy Wonka (remember--Dumbledore's 
> passwords are always sweets).


So what about Veruca Salt? To whom might she correspond in HP?? 
Hmmm.... perhaps Draco "Buymegimmegetme" Malfoy??

Anne U
(expects Seventh Squeal to chime in here ;-)







From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com  Fri Mar 21 03:22:18 2003
From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 22:22:18 EST
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: The morality question
Message-ID: <6a.2efabe49.2babdf6a@aol.com>




> <psychic_serpent at y...> wrote:
> > [JKR] is very flattered to be compared to Dahl and calls him "an 
> > absolute master at what he did."  ... So it's possible that one 
> > should really look to CATCF for similarities to HP characters.  I, 
> > for one, know that I cannot read about Violet Beauregard without 
> > thinking of Dudley, 


I've never read that book, though I've seen the movie (A long time ago). What 
was the name of the kid who fell into the river of chocolate? Now HE makes me 
think of Dudley. 

~Cassie-who, at this moment, is thinking up a filk for the "I've got a golden 
ticket!" song~ 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From annemehr at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 21 05:04:46 2003
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr)
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 05:04:46 -0000
Subject: To red carpet or not (warning: in rant mode)
In-Reply-To: <b5b541+4d83@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b5e6he+m5k2@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Melody" <Malady579 at h...> 
wrote:
> Ok.  Some might know I am a fashion history major.  I just get a 
kick
> out of being able to study something so frivolous yet so universal. 
 I
> mean, every culture adorns themselves some how.
> 
> Well, I also adore the Oscars.  *Major* fashion night.  I have tapes
> the pre-show, the actual show, and then Joan River's fashion review
> *every* year for years and watch them over and over.

<snip>

> So now comes this year.  Maybe I am misunderstanding, but isn't the
> movie industry a major part of the *entertainment* industry?  Their
> goal in life is to distract us and entertain us.  That is what they
> do.  So, I must say I am now quite disappointed they have shut down
> the red carpet.
> 
> The reason: They say it is too frivolous given the state of the 
world
> affairs.
> 
> Oh, come on.
> 
> The whole thing is frivolous.  That is the reason I watch it.

<snip>

Annemehr:
Well, Melody, I sympathise, even though I've only watched a few hours 
of the Oscars my whole life.  I think it has something to do with 
being annoyed when useless things are done for not-well-thought-out 
reasons. 

<snip>

> I guess I
> fear, if the Academy Awards says people should act as sedate as the
> industry seems to want to be portrayed, then the world will become a
> very depressing place.  That is what I fear.  We should not be
> ignorant and be skipping down the halls, but then again, we should 
not
> reflect each moment and sit transfixed in front of the TV watching 
CNN
> to be serious good citizens.

God forbid!  I am watching Fox News (especially when Shepard Smith and 
Brit Hume are on)!  And sustaining myself with hopes for a much 
happier Iraq soon...

Annemehr
who has had way too much RL and way too little HPfGU lately...
and who just noticed it is 12:02 a.m. here on March 21, so exactly 
three months until OoP!




From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 21 08:18:11 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 08:18:11 -0000
Subject: HELP!! Password problems
In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20030320202549.00c56de0@localhost>
Message-ID: <b5ehs3+q221@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Anne R Urbanski <urbana at c...>
wrote:
> I am wondering if anyone besides me is having difficulty signing in 
> on the Yahoogroups website. ... I tried to sign in several times this 
> evening from my home computer, using my Yahoo ID, anneu53714, and 
> suddenly the password I've been using for 2 years was declared 
> "invalid". 
> 
> Anne (U)


bboy_mn:

Go to any Yahoo sign-in screen, near the bottom of the box that
surrounds the sign-in dialog box, you will find a link to -

Password Look-up


Click on this and it will take you to a screen that will allow you to
enter you UserName, and they will send you a new password [Get NEW
Password]; item number 2 on the bottom left. This new password email
will be sent to the alternate email address you entered when you
created that username. 

Once you get logged in again, you can change that password back to
anything you want.

Steve/bboy_mn






From dradamsapple at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 21 17:47:10 2003
From: dradamsapple at yahoo.com (dradamsapple)
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 17:47:10 -0000
Subject: Children: absolutley OT!!!
Message-ID: <b5fj6u+jm6j@eGroups.com>

Good afternoon!

Well, I thought I'd share some of the trials and tribulations of 
being a parent in this modern world we live in.

 I know that when my children ask questions, I try to do my best to 
answer them as truthfully and honestly as I can.  But sometimes, I 
just don't know what to say.   This morning, quite seriously, my nine 
year old daughter asked me a question: 

"Mommy, if a chicken had lips could he whistle?"

Well, how do you answer that?  

Needless to say, this made my morning!!  We laughed and laughed 
together!!


Here's hoping this brings a laugh to your day too!!

Anna  . . .




From smotgreg at hotmail.com  Fri Mar 21 18:49:21 2003
From: smotgreg at hotmail.com (sandon96)
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 18:49:21 -0000
Subject: Meal names (was: Re: Pies, puddings, biscuits and tarts)
In-Reply-To: <b5cid0+bh63@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b5fmrh+jahk@eGroups.com>


> 
> And what I ate in the evening as a child growing up, was 
> technically "high tea", a portmanteau meal consisting of a simple 
> cooked dish, with bread and butter and - well, tea, of course, as 
> well as pudding (or dessert as we called it) and cakes.
> 
> ~Eloise

Thank you, Eloise, for clearning up a mystery for me. I have a 
wonderful cookbook by Annabel Karmel, a Londoner, who uses Tea in her 
meal planner. Yet, I'm still confused as to what time Tea would roughly 
be. 

It's a cookbook for feeding your baby/toddler and planning family meals 
together. The planner has  menu ideas for breakfast, lunch, tea, and 
dinner. I can figure out breakfast and lunch, but a Tea listing might 
include pasta with vegetables and fruit and yogurt gelatin, and then 
Dinner would be a leek and potato puree served with fruit and juice. 
Sometimes tea seems like a heavier meal, and other times dinner seems 
to be it. And I know I don't have to follow the menu plans, but I'm 
just curious when all this food would fit in to our day.

And to the HP mom who posted her child just learned to crawl (Sorry, 
too lazy/short of time to go digging for your name), I give you Moody's 
best advice: Constant Vigilance! Nick began crawling three weeks ago, 
and I am running around the house with him as he conquers the stairs, 
curtains, prying the little safety electrical plug ins out, saving the 
cat's tail from being pulled/chewed on, etc. To think that I looked 
forward to this day! :) It is so much fun, though, to watch him explore 
his world. I love the "aha!" moments when he discovers something new, 
something so simple as the floor sounding different when he goes from 
the carpet to the wood. He sat there transfixed for a good minute or so 
patting each side of the floor before he spied the cat and took off 
again.

Last, I was absolutely delighted to find Double Devon Cream being sold 
at our grocery store. I whipped up a batch of James Beard's Cream 
Scones, brought out the homemade strawberry jam from last summer's 
crop, and settled to enjoy a taste of England that I haven't had for 
over 10 years. MMMMMmmmmm, what it lacked in atmosphere, it made up in 
taste. 

Stacie





From joym999 at aol.com  Sat Mar 22 05:53:22 2003
From: joym999 at aol.com (joywitch_m_curmudgeon)
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 05:53:22 -0000
Subject: Pies, puddings, biscuits and tarts + rolls, buns, muffins, ...
In-Reply-To: <b5cgnl+ra4g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b5gtoi+gopi@eGroups.com>

bboy:
> > Now we come to the muffin. A muffin is like a cup cake. 

eloise:

> Yep. As I think I indicated, we're very familiar with these over 
> here now. In fact I have a packet of blueberry muffins in the
> kitchen as I speak.

Just to confuse matters, we Americans also eat these things 
called "English Muffins" which are totally unlike the cupcake looking 
things that are every other kind of muffin.  English muffins are 
round and flattish, not sweet, and when you slice them in half they 
have a lot of holes and look (and taste) a little bit like a crumpet 
(which we DON'T have here, but I had one once in some Ye Olde English 
Pub type place.)  Toasted English muffins are yummy with butter on 
them because you get pools of hot butter in the little holes.  I'm 
not much of a bread eater, but there are times when I HAVE to have an 
English muffin with butter and jam.  Oh, and only the kind made by 
Thomas are any good -- the other brands are just not the same.  
Thomas's commercials show this Dickensian scene of London, with Mr. 
Thomas making his famous muffins, but knowing how advertising works 
they could just as easy come from Tuscaloosa and be completely 
foreign to England.  Please enlighten me.

--Joywitch




From morrigan at byz.org  Sat Mar 22 06:09:49 2003
From: morrigan at byz.org (Vicki)
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 00:09:49 -0600
Subject: Pies, puddings, biscuits and tarts + rolls, buns, muffins, ...
In-Reply-To: <b5gtoi+gopi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <OCEOIOOCLDBFPDHBBCEMKEFACNAA.morrigan@byz.org>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: joywitch_m_curmudgeon

> Just to confuse matters, we Americans also eat these things
> called "English Muffins" which are totally unlike the cupcake looking
> things that are every other kind of muffin.  English muffins are
> round and flattish, not sweet, and when you slice them in half they
> have a lot of holes and look (and taste) a little bit like a crumpet
> (which we DON'T have here, but I had one once in some Ye Olde English
> Pub type place.)  Toasted English muffins are yummy with butter on
> them because you get pools of hot butter in the little holes.  I'm
> not much of a bread eater, but there are times when I HAVE to have an
> English muffin with butter and jam.  Oh, and only the kind made by
> Thomas are any good -- the other brands are just not the same.
> Thomas's commercials show this Dickensian scene of London, with Mr.
> Thomas making his famous muffins, but knowing how advertising works
> they could just as easy come from Tuscaloosa and be completely
> foreign to England.  Please enlighten me.

As has been discussed before, English muffins do not exist in England.  Most
likely they are bastardized crumpets, as there certainly are similarities,
but crumpets are far superior to my tastebuds.  Also, you CAN get crumpets
in this country - if you're lucky enough to have a Trader Joe's, they always
have them, and even many of the mainstream groceries carry them now.  If all
else fails, do a websearch for British import shops in your area - you can
get all sorts of lovely things from them.

Morrigan
www.RestrictedSection.org
www.livejournal.com/users/hermorrine
www.byz.org/~morrigan/hpslash.html




From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk  Sat Mar 22 08:53:45 2003
From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak)
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 08:53:45 -0000
Subject: Muffins WAS Re: Pies, puddings, biscuits and tarts + rolls, buns, muffins, ...
In-Reply-To: <OCEOIOOCLDBFPDHBBCEMKEFACNAA.morrigan@byz.org>
Message-ID: <b5h8ap+r8d3@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Vicki" <morrigan at b...> 
wrote:
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: joywitch_m_curmudgeon
> 
> > Just to confuse matters, we Americans also eat these things
> > called "English Muffins" which are totally unlike the cupcake 
looking
> > things that are every other kind of muffin.  English muffins are
> > round and flattish, not sweet, and when you slice them in half 
> > they have a lot of holes and look (and taste) a little bit like 
> > a crumpet(which we DON'T have here, but I had one once in some 
> > Ye Olde English Pub type place.)  Toasted English muffins are 
> > yummy with butter on them because you get pools of hot butter  
> > in  the little holes.<Snip>

Morrigan:
> As has been discussed before, English muffins do not exist in 
> England.  Most likely they are bastardized crumpets, as there 
> certainly are similarities, but crumpets are far superior to my 
> tastebuds.  <Snip>> Morrigan

Wrong, wrong, WRONG!

What you actually mean is that for a long time (English) muffins 
were not available in British shops. Don't ask me why. You had to 
bake them yourself - my grandmother used to bake muffins, and they 
were pretty much as Joywitch describes.

The recipe is as follows: [This one is from Delia Smith, not my 
grandmother - my grandmother used to cook her muffins in an oven]

Measurements in British Imperial and Metric.

1 pound (450 grammes) strong white flour
1 rounded teaspoon (about 5 millilitres) salt
8 fluid ounces milk (about 225 millilitres)
2 fluid ounces water (55 millilitres)
1 teaspoon caster sugar (very fine sugar, about 5 millilitres)
2 level teaspoons dried yeast (about 10 millilitres)
Some lard

Heat the milk and water until it is hand hot. Take it off the heat, 
and mix in the dried yeast. Leave it until it's frothy (about 10 
minutes).

Sift the flour and salt into a mixing bowl, then pour the frothy 
yeast mixture into a well in the centre. Mix it to a dough. It 
should leave the bowl cleanly; if it's too wet add a little more 
flour, if too dry a little more water.

Knead the dough for 10 minutes, then leave it in a warm place to 
rise. It should double in size (45 minutes or more).

Take the risen dough, and roll it out on a flat surface until it's 
about 1/2 inch (1 cm) thick. Using a 3 inch round cutter (7.5 cm) 
cut out 12 rounds. You may need to re-roll the dough a couple of 
times.

Place the muffins on a lightly greased baking sheet, cover them, and 
leave them to rise for a second time. This time it should be for 25 
to 35 minutes (in a warm place).

To griddle cook:
Grease the griddle (a good heavy frying pan can also be used) with 
the lard. Heat the pan over a medium heat, and cook the muffins for 
7 minutes each side, BUT as soon as the muffins hit the pan turn the 
heat down to low. You'll need to do this in 3 or 4 batches.

The correct way to eat a muffin is to first break them a little 
around the waist, then toast them lightly each side, then after 
toasting finish pulling them apart (ok, if you don't fancy this you 
can slice them - but it's cheating). Insert lots of butter.



They last about 2 days in an airtight tin. This may be why they 
vanished from the shops for a while - on display they have to be 
sold the day they're made. I suspect the supermarket version is full 
to bursting of preservatives.

Pip




From lupinesque at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 22 11:39:39 2003
From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 11:39:39 -0000
Subject: Muffins WAS Re: Pies, puddings, biscuits and tarts + rolls, buns, muffins, ...
In-Reply-To: <b5h8ap+r8d3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b5hi1r+7k4k@eGroups.com>

Pip wrote:

> What you actually mean is that for a long time (English) muffins 
> were not available in British shops. Don't ask me why. You had to 
> bake them yourself - my grandmother used to bake muffins, and they 
> were pretty much as Joywitch describes.

The plot thickens!  So, how much are those like crumpets?

To my taste buds, what we call English muffins are very clearly an 
attempt at crumpets.  They have that same distinctive unsweetness, 
and of course the little air pockets for holding a maximum amount of 
butter <dreamy look>, and as far as I can tell the only difference is 
that they aren't quite as good, or big.  But I put that down to the 
fact that the English muffins I've had are commercially produced and 
made for good shelf life, whereas the crumpets I've had are fresh.

So, what's the difference between a crumpet and an (English) muffin?

Amy




From witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 22 13:46:09 2003
From: witchwanda2002 at yahoo.com (Wanda the *B*Witch)
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 05:46:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Birthday Greetings and kids and just.....
Message-ID: <20030322134609.18571.qmail@web13705.mail.yahoo.com>


A huge THANK YOU EVERYBODY! My Muggles gave me a great day and as soon as the new book arrives, I'll be commenting then! We have been busy with School Projects and anybody with teens, knows with boys they hate to read! But we all our fine, I look in on the message board and get the announcements, so I am not totally out of the picture!  Keeping up with what's happening and talking it out with the boys and my husband. Even though HISTORY shows us about WAR, we always pray for a more PEACEFUL SOLUTIUON. Roy being an ARMY VETERAN, has been hoping no war, but he keeps watching and listening and prays the men and women come home soon. We just take it day by day and watch The Cartoon Channel and I watch my DARK SHADOWS on SCIFI Channel, so we get away from it. Always with my nose in a book too! Gee, we will be getting the movie delivered in May and then the Book in June, and today is March 22nd! Sometimes you wish you could speed up time like Hermione! Need one of those time tunners! Well, again THANK YOU for all those Birthday Wishes! You all made my week!

Wanda the *B*Witch and Her Very Merry Band of Muggles 100%

Show me a woman with rings on her fingers and bells on her toes! I'll show you a woman who can not sneak up on her husband!     B.C. Comics



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From heidit at netbox.com  Sat Mar 22 15:15:58 2003
From: heidit at netbox.com (heiditandy)
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 15:15:58 -0000
Subject: NIMBUS - 2003 :: An Update
Message-ID: <b5hune+aqlj@eGroups.com>

Earlier this month, Nimbus - 2003 announced its wonderful 
slate of programs and presentations (available here: 
http://www.hp2003.org/nimbuspgmtrack.html). 

Now, since the programming is settled, we're pleased to be able to 
add something NEW to Nimbus - 2003's already-varied selection of 
sponsorship opportunities - our Programming Sponsorship 
opportunities. 

Each of the presentations, panels, round tables, debates and 
discussions on that list above is available for sponsorship, at a 
rate of $100 per session. In other words, a website, a small 
business, a mailing list, a group of friends, or an individual can 
be the Official Sponsor of one of our wonderful sessions.

Session sponsors will receive a sign in the room and an 
acknowledgement in the program, and we'll work with you to create 
the sign and the language for the program as well! Also, session 
sponsors who are also exhibitors get the same consideration as all 
other sponsors, including a guaranteed space in the Exhibition Room. 

Session sponsorship reservations will be held for 10 business days 
from the session sponsor's sending a reservation email to me, or to 
Sponsor at hp2003.org, by which time a completed Sponsorship Form must 
be returned to lock in the sponsorship. 50% payment must be received 
within 30 days of receipt of the sponsorship form, with the balance 
due on or before May 31, 2003. 

You can ask me any questions you have about this - offlist, though

Heidi Tandy
Sponsorship Chaser - Nimbus-2003
http://www.hp2003.org

PS #1: Are you participating in the Nimbus - 2003 banner exchange 
yet? If not, go here: http://www.hp2003.org/nimbushelpsplinks.html 
and sign up!


PS #2: If this is the first you've heard of Nimbus - 2003, please 
check out our website at http://www.hp2003.org - it's a Harry Potter 
event set for July 17 - 20 in Orlando, Florida. Almost 400 people 
have registered so far, and we've got a great set of events, 
presentations and food-events for you to enjoy!





From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 22 18:48:01 2003
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 18:48:01 -0000
Subject: Muffins WAS Re: Pies, puddings, biscuits and tarts + rolls, buns, muffins, ...
In-Reply-To: <b5hi1r+7k4k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b5ib51+5ol4@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Amy Z" <lupinesque at y...> .
> 
> So, what's the difference between a crumpet and an (English) muffin?
> 
> Amy

When I was in London a few years ago, a friend asked me if I wanted 
a "muffin".  I said yes, think of a cupcake, a scone-like thing.  
What she brought out of the kitchen was exactly like the "English 
muffin" I used to buy in the supermarket. ("Thomas's" is the only 
brand you should buy, btw.)

Haggridd







From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk  Sat Mar 22 21:33:16 2003
From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak)
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 21:33:16 -0000
Subject: Muffins WAS Re: Pies, puddings, biscuits and tarts + rolls, buns, muffins, ...
In-Reply-To: <b5hi1r+7k4k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b5ikqs+gf2u@eGroups.com>

<Snip>
> So, what's the difference between a crumpet and an (English) 
muffin?
> 
> Amy

Um. Well, muffins are yeast bread cooked on a griddle. The dough is 
breadlike in texture, kneaded and twice risen. Apart from the fact 
that they're griddle cakes, they're very 'bread bun' like. 

Muffins are not intended to be sweet in any way. Their purpose in 
life is to be toasted, and carry lots of butter. That's why they're 
twice risen - it makes the holes bigger. I think it's in 'Importance 
of Being Earnest' that one of the characters remarks that 'one can 
only eat muffins calmly.' Otherwise, the butter runs down your 
sleeve.

Crumpets, on the other hand, are a batter cake. Like muffins, 
they're cooked on a griddle, but they're actually a yeast non-sweet 
pancake.

When you cook crumpets, you need some of those egg cooking rings 
that they use in fast food places to get nice round fried eggs. You 
pour the batter into the ring. Because you've allowed the yeast to 
froth, you get bubbles rising to the surface of the batter and 
bursting.


I have a recipe for English home made crumpets, if anyone wants me 
to post it (Imperial and metric measurements, not U.S.)[grin]

Pip




From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Mar 22 22:52:51 2003
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 22:52:51 -0000
Subject: Belated birthday greetings...
In-Reply-To: <b570oo+i5u5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b5ipg3+cf3j@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Mary Ann" <macloudt at y...> 
wrote:
> :::::Dizzy Elf limps into the room, banging her head against the
> wall with each step.  She carries a large cake in her hands, which
> have been quickly bandaged after having been ironed:::::

Poor Birthday Elf! I hope you put some Madam Pomfrey's Skin Saviour 
on your poor hands! 
> 
> Bad, bad Birthday Elf!  I missed yesterday's birthday...on St. 
> Patrick's Day to boot.  So let's all wish Jana a happy belated 
> birthday, shall we?  Greetings can be sent to the List or to 
> george_weasleys_girlfriend at p...

Hey, Jana! I hope you had a good birthday, and I hope you're still 
in contact with the HPfGU community .... it's been a long time since 
you came to Chat...




From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Mar 22 23:48:21 2003
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 23:48:21 -0000
Subject: "Reckon" - Birthday Greetings - Crookshanks watches the movie - filk
Message-ID: <b5iso5+i253@eGroups.com>

Pritty Lina wrote:

<< ... reckon ... As far as it being taken from American slang, 
perhaps from western movies? IIRC, its use was prominate in them. >>

I'm thinking that Sherlock Holmes said "reckon" a lot, which was 
before movies but not before westerns as cheap novels.

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Mary Ann" <macloudt at y...> 
wrote:

> Another double birthday, yay!  Today's birthday honorees are Laura 
> and Wanda the Witch!  Greetings can be sent to the list or to Laura 
> at animalsbaby_1999 at y... and Wanda at witchwanda at y...

Happy Birthday to Witch Wanda and best wishes to her Merry Muggles!

Happy Birthday to Laura -- I replied to your post once... Animal's 
baby is a name that I liked too much to ever forget.
>
> Mary Ann
> (off to bake a RL cake for her son who's 5 today)

Happy Birthday to Mary Ann's son!

Lynn Townsend wrote:

<< As the movie started, C.S. hopped onto the bed right in front of 
the TV and started watching the movie intently,(The TV is on what 
passes for my nightstand) occasionally turning to me to make some 
sort of "comment" (The chirpy squeak that passes for his meow on most 
occasions.) >>

Did he mew at the McGonagall cat? And Mrs Norris?

~Cassie, who~

<< at this moment, is thinking up a filk for the "I've got a golden 
ticket!" song >>

"I've got a Hogwarts letter!"? 




From dfrankiswork at netscape.net  Sun Mar 23 00:21:33 2003
From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David)
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 00:21:33 -0000
Subject: Muffins WAS Re: Pies, puddings, biscuits and tarts + rolls, buns, muffins, ...
In-Reply-To: <b5h8ap+r8d3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b5iumd+nlhd@eGroups.com>

From: joywitch_m_curmudgeon
> > 
> > > Just to confuse matters, we Americans also eat these things
> > > called "English Muffins" which are totally unlike the cupcake 
> looking
> > > things that are every other kind of muffin.  English muffins 
are
> > > round and flattish, not sweet, and when you slice them in half 
> > > they have a lot of holes and look (and taste) a little bit 
like 
> > > a crumpet(which we DON'T have here, but I had one once in some 
> > > Ye Olde English Pub type place.)  Toasted English muffins are 
> > > yummy with butter on them because you get pools of hot butter  
> > > in  the little holes.<Snip>
> 
> Morrigan:
> > As has been discussed before, English muffins do not exist in 
> > England.  Most likely they are bastardized crumpets, as there 
> > certainly are similarities, but crumpets are far superior to my 
> > tastebuds.  

Pip
> 
> Wrong, wrong, WRONG!
> 
> What you actually mean is that for a long time (English) muffins 
> were not available in British shops. Don't ask me why. You had to 
> bake them yourself - my grandmother used to bake muffins, and they 
> were pretty much as Joywitch describes.

That confused me until I read Pip's later post, but just to be 
sure...

Pip, are you saying that the product on sale in America as 'English 
Muffins' (and which sound very similar to crumpets) used not to be 
available in English shops, but now are.

Or are you saying that we used not to be able to buy muffins (which 
we can't assume bear a close relation to 'English Muffins') but had 
to bake them yourself?

I think you were saying the latter, in which case AFAIK Morrigan is 
correct, because (American) English muffins are not muffins.  But 
*we* used to get muffins from the shops when I was a child, and they 
sound like what you describe.

David, upholding the right of Americans to call something 'English 
Muffin' when it is neither English nor a muffin.




From strumpet at liverdance.net  Sun Mar 23 02:27:12 2003
From: strumpet at liverdance.net (inspector_dim)
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 02:27:12 -0000
Subject: Nimbus - 2003 PR needs your help!
Message-ID: <b5j620+ac3d@eGroups.com>

Hi all,

We're gearing up to send out the Nimbus - 2003 press packet around 
the fandom, and 
we need your help! We don't want to leave any site out - and thus 
will need a huge list of Harry Potter sites. If those of you who 
are so inclined could email me *OFFLIST* with a listing of the HP 
sites you visit/we should send out to, it'd be a huge help.

Thanks for supporting Nimbus - 2003!

Lynn




From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 23 02:48:47 2003
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 02:48:47 -0000
Subject: "Pickled Toadies" Nominations
Message-ID: <b5j7af+2c98@eGroups.com>

I would like to kick off the nominations for the 2003 Pickled Toad 
Awards (The "Pickled Toadies") with my own nominations:

1.  For best filk of a Rock & Roll song:
A filk of the song "Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band".

"Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot, Prongs and Snape" by Amy Z.

2.  For best filk of a song from a stage or movie musical:
A filk of the song "Dance: Ten. Looks: Three." ("Tits and Ass") from 
the Musical "A Chorus Line.  

"Height Three Foot Ten" by Caius Marcus.

3.  For best filk of a song from a sourse other than 1. or 2.:
A filk of the song "Swinging on a Star".

"Knowin' Who Yeh Are" by Pippin.


-Haggridd





From jmholmes at kjsl.com  Sun Mar 23 05:37:16 2003
From: jmholmes at kjsl.com (slytherincess)
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 05:37:16 -0000
Subject: "Pickled Toadies" Nominations
In-Reply-To: <b5j7af+2c98@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b5jh6c+ikaj@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Haggridd" 
<jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:
> I would like to kick off the nominations for the 2003 Pickled Toad 
> Awards (The "Pickled Toadies") with my own nominations:

May we submit our own work, or do we have to be nominated by another 
listmember? I'm relatively new to this list, so I'm not familiar with 
the usual protocol. 

      (`'?.?(`'?.? ?.?'?)?.?'?)
     ???`?..*Julie*..???`?
       (?.?'(?.?'? `'?.?)`'?.?)





From joym999 at aol.com  Sun Mar 23 06:25:58 2003
From: joym999 at aol.com (joywitch_m_curmudgeon)
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 06:25:58 -0000
Subject: Not about the "Pickled Toadies" Nominations
In-Reply-To: <b5jh6c+ikaj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b5jk1m+hi4g@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "slytherincess" 
<jmholmes at k...> wrote:
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Haggridd" 
> <jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:
> > I would like to kick off the nominations for the 2003 Pickled 
Toad 
> > Awards (The "Pickled Toadies") with my own nominations:
> 
> May we submit our own work, or do we have to be nominated by 
another 
> listmember? I'm relatively new to this list, so I'm not familiar 
with 
> the usual protocol. 
> 
>       (`'?.?(`'?.? ?.?'?)?.?'?)
>      ???`?..*Julie*..???`?
>        (?.?'(?.?'? `'?.?)`'?.?)

I don't want to take anything away from the Pickled Toadies, which is 
a fine and upstanding endeavor, but if there were an award for "Best 
Use of Boring Old Ascii Symbols to Create an Nice Signature Graphic," 
I think that Julie would win.

--Joywitch




From jmholmes at breckcomm.com  Sun Mar 23 07:04:58 2003
From: jmholmes at breckcomm.com (Julie Holmes)
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 00:04:58 -0700
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Not about the "Pickled Toadies" Nominations
References: <b5jk1m+hi4g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <002001c2f10a$8440c740$6401a8c0@arvada1.co.home.com>

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: joywitch_m_curmudgeon 

  <I don't want to take anything away from the Pickled Toadies, which is a fine and upstanding endeavor, but if there were an award for "Best Use of Boring Old Ascii Symbols to Create an Nice Signature Graphic," I think that Julie would win.>
  Why thank you Joywitch :) Feel free to use it (as I shamelessly ripped it off of someone else a couple years back). 

  That said, I have two FILKS I'd love to submit. The first is called Draco's Hairbrush Song, which is based on The Hairbrush Song from :::coughs::: VeggieTales. The other is Born to Brew Wolfsbane, which is based on Born to Entertain from the musical Ruthless! They are both very silly. 
      (`'?.?(`'?.? ?.?'?)?.?'?)
     ???`?..*Julie*..???`?
       (?.?'(?.?'? `'?.?)`'?.?)

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
mailto:jmholmes at kjsl.com
http://www.livejournal.com/users/slytherincess
~*~*~*~*~**~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Mar 23 08:56:55 2003
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 08:56:55 -0000
Subject: Merchandise, again
Message-ID: <b5jssn+1hbo@eGroups.com>

"WIZARD AND WITCH PEOPLE SALT AND PEPPER SHAKERS"
They're so adorable! They look like my friends Jim and Bonnie 
when smiling ... actually, they look like Tim and me if we were 
smiling ... 
http://www.pacprod.com/cgi-bin/hazelnt.exe?action=DETAIL&item=T_SPWZ&P
PGA=DWPT_SPWZ

"WIG PIG SALT AND PEPPER SHAKERS"
Omigod, it's a pig in a blonde wig, like baby Duddykins!
http://www.pacprod.com/cgi-bin/hazelnt.exe?action=DETAIL&item=7611&PPG
A=DWP7611




From macloudt at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Mar 23 09:18:45 2003
From: macloudt at yahoo.co.uk (Mary Ann)
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 09:18:45 -0000
Subject: Birthday Greetings!
Message-ID: <b5ju5l+m6bi@eGroups.com>

:::::puts a cake on the table, which is already groaning under the 
weight of the party food:::::

It's birthday time again!  Today our greetings go to Rebecca J. 
(Anderson) Bohner.  Greetings can be sent to the List or to 
bohners at pobox.com

Have a lovely day, Rebecca, and have fun!

Mary Ann
(TBE)




From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Mar 23 09:35:20 2003
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 09:35:20 -0000
Subject: Birthday Greetings!
In-Reply-To: <b5ju5l+m6bi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b5jv4o+jcmj@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Mary Ann" <macloudt at y...> 
wrote:

> It's birthday time again!  Today our greetings go to Rebecca J. 
> (Anderson) Bohner.  

R.J.Anderson! Yay! Have a Snape in crimson silk robes for your party! 




From trinity61us at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 23 10:24:24 2003
From: trinity61us at yahoo.com (alex fox)
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 02:24:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Merchandise, again
In-Reply-To: <b5jssn+1hbo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20030323102424.675.qmail@web14910.mail.yahoo.com>


Sorry , Rita! They said you had a malformed "P" or something. (ouch) Couldn't see it!
Alex (Lucius is Magically Delicious) Fox
 "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" <catlady at wicca.net> wrote:"WIZARD AND WITCH PEOPLE SALT AND PEPPER SHAKERS"
They're so adorable! They look like my friends Jim and Bonnie 
when smiling ... actually, they look like Tim and me if we were 
smiling ... 
http://www.pacprod.com/cgi-bin/hazelnt.exe?action=DETAIL&item=T_SPWZ&P
PGA=DWPT_SPWZ

"WIG PIG SALT AND PEPPER SHAKERS"
Omigod, it's a pig in a blonde wig, like baby Duddykins!
http://www.pacprod.com/cgi-bin/hazelnt.exe?action=DETAIL&item=7611&PPG
A=DWP7611


Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
var lrec_target="_top";var lrec_URL = new Array();lrec_URL[1] = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.3079700.4403303.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1707544108:HM/A=1430287/R=0/id=flashurl/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405";var link="javascript:LRECopenWindow(1)";var lrec_flashfile = 'http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/intl_library_of_poetry/yahoo_300x250.swf?clickTAG='+link+'';var lrec_altURL = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.3079700.4403303.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1707544108:HM/A=1430287/R=1/id=altimgurl/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405";var lrec_altimg = "http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/intl_library_of_poetry/yahoo_300x250.gif";var lrec_width = 300;var lrec_height = 250;
________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________

Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the group's Admin Files!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/

Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying!

Is your message...
An announcement of merchandise, news etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements.
Movie-related? Send it to HPFGU-Movie.
Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups.
None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter.
Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com

Unsubscribing? Email HPFGU-OTChatter-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
____________________________________________________________ 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Mar 23 10:30:04 2003
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 10:30:04 -0000
Subject: Merchandise, again
In-Reply-To: <20030323102424.675.qmail@web14910.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <b5k2bc+4lt6@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, alex fox <trinity61us at y...> 
wrote:
> 
> Sorry , Rita! They said you had a malformed "P" or something. 
> (ouch) Couldn't see it!

Oh! That's their quaint way of saying that you have to use Copy 
and Paste to re-construct the whole long URL that yahoo!mail broke 
into two lines.

http://www.pacprod.com/cgi-bin/hazelnt.exe?action=DETAIL&item=T_SPWZ&P
PGA=DWPT_SPWZ

http://www.pacprod.com/cgi-bin/hazelnt.exe?action=DETAIL&item=7611&PPG
A=DWP7611





From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 23 07:32:32 2003
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 07:32:32 -0000
Subject: Not about the "Pickled Toadies" Nominations
In-Reply-To: <b5jk1m+hi4g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b5jnug+5nk2@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "joywitch_m_curmudgeon" 
<joym999 at a...> wrote:
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "slytherincess" 
> <jmholmes at k...> wrote:
> > --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Haggridd" 
> > <jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:
> > > I would like to kick off the nominations for the 2003 Pickled 
> Toad 
> > > Awards (The "Pickled Toadies") with my own nominations:
> > 
> > May we submit our own work, or do we have to be nominated by 
> another 
> > listmember? I'm relatively new to this list, so I'm not familiar 
> with 
> > the usual protocol. 
> > 
> >       (`'?.?(`'?.? ?.?'?)?.?'?)
> >      ???`?..*Julie*..???`?
> >        (?.?'(?.?'? `'?.?)`'?.?)
> 
> I don't want to take anything away from the Pickled Toadies, which 
is 
> a fine and upstanding endeavor, but if there were an award 
for "Best 
> Use of Boring Old Ascii Symbols to Create an Nice Signature 
Graphic," 
> I think that Julie would win.
> 
> --Joywitch

I would imagine that if you felt that your filk was the best one in a 
particular category, then you should nominate it.

--Haggridd (who concurs with Joywitch in bestowing the 2003 
UOBOASTCANSG Award to Julie)




From penumbra10 at ameritech.net  Sun Mar 23 14:22:12 2003
From: penumbra10 at ameritech.net (Nia)
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 14:22:12 -0000
Subject: To red carpet or not (warning: in rant mode)
In-Reply-To: <b5e6he+m5k2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b5kfuk+1165q@eGroups.com>

 "Melody" originally wrote:
> > Ok.  Some might know I am a fashion history major.  I just get a 
> kick out of being able to study something so frivolous yet so 
universal. 
>  I mean, every culture adorns themselves some how.  Well, I also 
adore the Oscars.  *Major* fashion night.  I have tapes the pre-
show, the actual show, and then Joan River's fashion review
> > *every* year for years and watch them over and over.
> > <snip>
> 
> > So now comes this year.  Maybe I am misunderstanding, but isn't 
the movie industry a major part of the *entertainment* industry?  
Their goal in life is to distract us and entertain us.  That is what 
they do.  So, I must say I am now quite disappointed they have shut 
down the red carpet.
> > 
> > The reason: They say it is too frivolous given the state of the 
> world affairs.
> > 
> > Oh, come on.
> > 
> > The whole thing is frivolous.  That is the reason I watch it.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> Annemehr answered:
> Well, Melody, I sympathise, even though I've only watched a few 
hours of the Oscars my whole life.  I think it has something to do 
with being annoyed when useless things are done for not-well-thought-
out reasons. 
> 
> <snip>
> 
> > I guess I fear, if the Academy Awards says people should act as 
sedate as the industry seems to want to be portrayed, then the world 
will become a very depressing place.  That is what I fear.  We 
should not be ignorant and be skipping down the halls, but then 
again, we should not reflect each moment and sit transfixed in front 
of the TV watching CNN to be serious good citizens.
> 
> God forbid!  I am watching Fox News (especially when Shepard Smith 
and Brit Hume are on)!  And sustaining myself with hopes for a much 
> happier Iraq soon...
<snip>

Now, me:
I believe I heard a newsperson say that an additional reason the 
stars won't be pausing on the red carpet is that they don't want 
them to use the time as a forum for their views on the war.  
Intelligence does not always coincide with wealth and quite a few of 
them have expressed shall we say "uninformed" opinions.  The network 
people, it seems, don't want the more vocal ones casting a pall on 
things and perhaps demoralizing and depressing the soldiers on the 
front lines, which many seem not to think of at all in their quest 
to be heard.  IMO a free society thrives on differences of opinion, 
but there are proper times and venues for this sort of thing.  The 
silly Oscar event is not that venue.  Melody is perfectly right to 
be miffed about the whole business.

--Nia, who prays we are quickly successful, now that we've committed 
ourselves, and that the people of Iraq will finally be able to take 
a breath of free air.




From Malady579 at hotmail.com  Sun Mar 23 15:55:19 2003
From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody)
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 15:55:19 -0000
Subject: "Pickled Toadies" Nominations
In-Reply-To: <b5j7af+2c98@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b5kld8+5ve5@eGroups.com>

Haggridd wrote:
> I would like to kick off the nominations for the 2003 Pickled Toad
> Awards (The "Pickled Toadies") with my own nominations:


I want to join in and say my picks.  I do want to say, I am an amateur
filker at best, so my criteria for a good filk has more to do with
whether I know the filked tune, the topic of the filk, and how they
match the rhythm of the song.  Really in that order too.  But you
asked for our own favorites, and theses are some of the ones I took
the time to cut and paste in Word to save.


>1.  For best filk of a Rock & Roll song:

Ok.  I know like two Beatles songs, so that field of filks is rather
null and void to my judgment, but I do have one R&R filk I really liked.

Nicole's clever filk to the tune of Alanis Morissette's "Ironic" named:

"Eccentric" about Dumbledore.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/45867


>2.  For best filk of a song from a stage or movie musical:

Ahhhhh!  This one is too hard to pick.  Probably because I know
musical songs the best, since I was raised on them.  So I narrowed it
down to two.

Haggridd chose:
> A filk of the song "Dance: Ten. Looks: Three." ("Tits and Ass") from
> the Musical "A Chorus Line.
> "Height Three Foot Ten" by Caius Marcus.

I want to second Haggridd's pick of Caius' wonderful filk listed above
and add this one.  Really they were a tie in my eyes.

Gail B.'s well worked filk to the tune of Les Mis?rables "The
Confrontation" named:

"The Explanation" about when Snape entered the Shrieking Shack.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/48339


> 3.  For best filk of a song from a source other than 1. or 2.:

I'm going to fudge here a bit, since it is from a cartoon.  Granted a
musical cartoon, but hey, Disney should be in its own category.  And
everyone should know I couldn't resist a filk from my beloved Beauty
and the Beast.

Marina's filk of Beauty and the Beast's "It's a Guest" named:

"It's a Book" released on the day we learned when OoP was being released.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/49866


Ok that is all from me today.  I am already well immersed in Oscar day
festivities on the E! channel.  Teehee.  There may be no red carpet,
but these entertainment reporters want to be paid so should be
interesting to see what they come up with.  And Joan Rivers is still
doing her show too, so today will be *greatly* entertaining.  :)


Melody





From HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com  Sun Mar 23 16:02:26 2003
From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com (HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 23 Mar 2003 16:02:26 -0000
Subject: Reminder - Weekly Chat 
Message-ID: <1048435346.22.73985.m9@yahoogroups.com>


We would like to remind you of this upcoming event.

Weekly Chat 

Date: Sunday, March 23, 2003 
Time: 11:00AM - 7:00PM CST (GMT-06:00) 

Hi everyone! Don't forget, chat happens today, 11 am Pacific, 2
pm Eastern, 7 pm UK time. Go into any Yahoo chat room and type
/join HP:1 
For further info, see the Humongous BigFile, section 3.3.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/hbfile.html#33

Hope to see you there! 

 





From trinity61us at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 23 16:39:34 2003
From: trinity61us at yahoo.com (alex fox)
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 08:39:34 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: "Pickled Toadies" Nominations
In-Reply-To: <b5kld8+5ve5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20030323163934.60481.qmail@web14901.mail.yahoo.com>


I really don't know if this counts, but my vote for "other" is Waterlily12's parody of the Lumberjack song....The Biggerstaff Song... It is in the "Rhythm and Rhyme" section of FA right now , and if you haven't read it , you're missing out!
Alex Fox-Malfoy
                   ""Who's your Dark Wizard? Say it! Say it"    Lucius Malfoy,    The Chronicles Of Lucius"  by Fyre 
 Melody <Malady579 at hotmail.com> wrote:Haggridd wrote:
> I would like to kick off the nominations for the 2003 Pickled Toad
> Awards (The "Pickled Toadies") with my own nominations:


I want to join in and say my picks.  I do want to say, I am an amateur
filker at best, so my criteria for a good filk has more to do with
whether I know the filked tune, the topic of the filk, and how they
match the rhythm of the song.  Really in that order too.  But you
asked for our own favorites, and theses are some of the ones I took
the time to cut and paste in Word to save.


>1.  For best filk of a Rock & Roll song:

Ok.  I know like two Beatles songs, so that field of filks is rather
null and void to my judgment, but I do have one R&R filk I really liked.

Nicole's clever filk to the tune of Alanis Morissette's "Ironic" named:

"Eccentric" about Dumbledore.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/45867


>2.  For best filk of a song from a stage or movie musical:

Ahhhhh!  This one is too hard to pick.  Probably because I know
musical songs the best, since I was raised on them.  So I narrowed it
down to two.

Haggridd chose:
> A filk of the song "Dance: Ten. Looks: Three." ("Tits and Ass") from
> the Musical "A Chorus Line.
> "Height Three Foot Ten" by Caius Marcus.

I want to second Haggridd's pick of Caius' wonderful filk listed above
and add this one.  Really they were a tie in my eyes.

Gail B.'s well worked filk to the tune of Les Mis?rables "The
Confrontation" named:

"The Explanation" about when Snape entered the Shrieking Shack.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/48339


> 3.  For best filk of a song from a source other than 1. or 2.:

I'm going to fudge here a bit, since it is from a cartoon.  Granted a
musical cartoon, but hey, Disney should be in its own category.  And
everyone should know I couldn't resist a filk from my beloved Beauty
and the Beast.

Marina's filk of Beauty and the Beast's "It's a Guest" named:

"It's a Book" released on the day we learned when OoP was being released.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/49866


Ok that is all from me today.  I am already well immersed in Oscar day
festivities on the E! channel.  Teehee.  There may be no red carpet,
but these entertainment reporters want to be paid so should be
interesting to see what they come up with.  And Joan Rivers is still
doing her show too, so today will be *greatly* entertaining.  :)


Melody



Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
var lrec_target="_top";var lrec_URL = new Array();lrec_URL[1] = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.3079700.4403303.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1707544108:HM/A=1430287/R=0/id=flashurl/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405";var link="javascript:LRECopenWindow(1)";var lrec_flashfile = 'http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/intl_library_of_poetry/yahoo_300x250.swf?clickTAG='+link+'';var lrec_altURL = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.3079700.4403303.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1707544108:HM/A=1430287/R=1/id=altimgurl/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405";var lrec_altimg = "http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/intl_library_of_poetry/yahoo_300x250.gif";var lrec_width = 300;var lrec_height = 250;
________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________

Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the group's Admin Files!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/

Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying!

Is your message...
An announcement of merchandise, news etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements.
Movie-related? Send it to HPFGU-Movie.
Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups.
None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter.
Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com

Unsubscribing? Email HPFGU-OTChatter-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
____________________________________________________________ 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 23 19:08:26 2003
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 19:08:26 -0000
Subject: "Pickled Toadies".  Please include links with nominations.
Message-ID: <b5l0na+7ec0@eGroups.com>

I must apologize for not realizing that all nominee filks will not 
have been posted either at HPfGU or at the HP filk site.  Mea maxima 
culpa! If at all possible, please include a link with your 
nominations so that we all can enjoy your choices.

Thanks,
Haggridd




From lilac_bearry at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 24 00:48:17 2003
From: lilac_bearry at yahoo.com (Lilac)
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 16:48:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Pickled Toad Awards
Message-ID: <20030324004817.52293.qmail@web40306.mail.yahoo.com>


Well...I'm not exactly following the rules of the contest because there are just too darn many good filks out there.  So, along with the official categories from the contest, I made up some of my own.  There are also some "ties" because I couldn't decide.  I know my votes may not count because of this, and I'm perfectly fine with that. :-) 

***********************************

Best filk from a Musical -- TIE:  

Dark Defense Tutorial by Pippin

http://home.att.net/~coriolan/faculty/lockhart.htm#Dark_Defense_Tutorial

Never Ever by CMC (this one also won the "Best Sondheim Filk" and "Hardest Song to Filk" awards)

http://home.att.net/~coriolan/places/theorybay.htm#Never_Ever

 

Best Rock filk: Come Together by Gail

http://home.att.net/~coriolan/voldemort/voldemort.htm#Come_Together

 

Best other filk:  Mars Is Bright Tonight by CMC

http://home.att.net/~coriolan/places/beasts.htm#Mars_is_Bright_Tonight

 

Best filk of a Disney song:  Ron by Nicole

http://home.att.net/~coriolan/students/weasleys.htm#Ron

 

Best Beatles song -- TIE:

I've Got To Throw This Book Away by Gail

http://home.att.net/~coriolan/secrets.htm#I've_Got_To_Throw_This_Book_Away

Eight Legged Freaks by Pippin

http://home.att.net/~coriolan/newfilks.htm#Eight_Legged_Freaks  

 

Best Beatle Album Filked:  Dobby Road by Gail, Pippin and Yours Truly

http://home.att.net/~coriolan/dobby-road.htm

 

Best use of "potty puns":  CMC's Moaning Myrtle

http://home.att.net/~coriolan/secrets.htm#Moaning_Myrtle

 

Best filk about Leaky Cauldron's auction attempt/Best filk using the word "sucky":  Don't Cry For Us, HP Fandom by Heidi Tandy and Chris Dickson

http://home.att.net/~coriolan/places/fandom.htm#Don't_Cry_for_Us,_HP_Fandom

 

Best filks from a historical musical:  All the 1776 Songs by Haggridd

http://home.att.net/~coriolan/newfilks.htm#The_Egg

 

Best Queen filk/Best "It Was Only A Dream" filk:  Hogwart's Dream Rhapsody by Pip

http://home.att.net/~coriolan/places/theorybay.htm#Hogwarts_Dream_Rhapsody

 

Best Monty Python filk/Best Freudian symbolism in a filk:  The Wand Song by Red Scharlach

http://home.att.net/~coriolan/places/devices.html#The_Wand_Song

 

Best Eagle filk/Best "Flying Hedgehog" filk:  We're All Evil by Mariner

http://home.att.net/~coriolan/places/theorybay.htm#We're_All_Evil

 

Best filks with Christian themes:  The Four Christmas Songs by Melody and Pip

http://home.att.net/~coriolan/stone.htm#Halloween_Night

 

Best multiple uses of a single Celine Dion song (because, admit it everyone...there's no such thing as too much Celine Dion):  The Potterholic's songs by Ravenclaw Chaser 

http://home.att.net/~coriolan/places/waiting1.htm#When_Will_The_Story_Go_On?

http://home.att.net/~coriolan/places/waiting2.htm#The_Story_Is_Going_On  

 

Best filk about Sinistra (well...it's the only filk about Sinistra...)/Shameless Lockhart moment for Lilac: Starry, Starry Night by Guess Who

http://home.att.net/~coriolan/faculty/sinistra.htm#Starry,_Starry_Night



 

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

"So sorry -- dozed off -- what have I missed?"

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 24 06:30:51 2003
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 06:30:51 -0000
Subject: Separate category for Beatles Toadies?
Message-ID: <b5m8mr+8iuv@eGroups.com>

Is there any sentiment for another category just for filks of Beatles 
(no, Ms. Skeeter, not "beetles") tunes?  For any other categories? 

-Haggridd




From stix4141 at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 24 16:44:54 2003
From: stix4141 at hotmail.com (stickbook41)
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 16:44:54 -0000
Subject: Nominations for Rock'n'Roll FILK
Message-ID: <b5ncm6+5pua@eGroups.com>

I'd like to nominate, in the category of best rock'n'roll filk:

"The Goblet of Fire"
by Gail Bohacek

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/53163

It's a rather brilliant reworking of Billy Joel's "We Didn't Start 
the Fire".  I laughed my @ss off singing it out loud.  I implore Gail 
or Haggrid or somebody just as filkishly talented to do something to 
the tune of "American Pie".  Thank you.

Cheers!

-stickbook




From petra.delisser at postikaista.net  Mon Mar 24 20:35:42 2003
From: petra.delisser at postikaista.net (brinforest)
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 20:35:42 -0000
Subject: How Draco looks - JACKPOT!!!
Message-ID: <b5nq6u+r8cb@eGroups.com>


Hi,

I can hardly contain myself, because I've just made a most amazing 
discovery. I've never before really determined in my mind what Draco 
Malfoy looks like, but now I know! 

I was half-watching the James Bond movie A View to a Kill, where 
Christopher Walken is about 42 years old and has bleached-blond 
hair, and I just thought OMG, a young version of him would be Draco 
Malfoy spot on! 

Look at this site with his pictures:

http://www.ojai.net/swanson/biography.htm

Especially the one where it says "Walken as a boy" - it even has a 
slight resemblance to Tom Felton, although I've never thought he 
looked quite Draco-ish enough.

So, what do you think??


Brin




From rvotaw at i-55.com  Tue Mar 25 01:49:10 2003
From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw)
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 19:49:10 -0600
Subject: Game review
Message-ID: <002001c2f270$bba13b40$409fcdd1@RVotaw>

As most of you have probably noticed, if something has the words "Harry Potter" on it, I'll probably buy it.  I don't know what took me so long to buy the Levitating challenge, it looked rather dull I suppose.  However, when I saw it on clearance for $8 I couldn't resist anymore.  So I bought it, put in batteries, read the directions, and tried it out.  This thing is so fun!  It takes concentration, skill, and oh well, it's just plain fun!

Richelle


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From lupinesque at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 25 10:39:07 2003
From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 10:39:07 -0000
Subject: Happy birthday, David!
Message-ID: <b5pbkb+f7i8@eGroups.com>

No, not *our* David.  *Her* David.  JKR had a healthy baby boy 
yesterday, David Gordon Rowling Murray.  Blessings on all!

Amy




From cbdm1121 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 25 14:10:43 2003
From: cbdm1121 at yahoo.com (Zach)
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 14:10:43 -0000
Subject: Pickled Toadies: Avada Kedavra
Message-ID: <b5po13+g0ap@eGroups.com>

Avada Kedavra
(To the tune of Hakuna Matata)

WORMTAIL: Avada Kedavra ...	Give the Dark Lord your praise!
Avada Kedavra ...	Cause he's kind of crazed.
It means go kill them all with a simple phrase
It's our Muggle-free philosophy - Avada Kedavra

Why, when he was at Hogwarts
VOLDEMORT:  When I was at Hogwarts
WT: He found his social skills had a certain appeal
He could charm people into doing whatever he'd feel
LV: They were innocent souls, though I made them sin.
And it was so cool that I went and changed my skin
And, oh, - the fame! 
(WT: He was a - famed!)
LV: Went and changed my name!
(WT: Oh, what's in a name?)
LV: And people got fainthearted
(WT: How did they feel?)
 LV: every time that I...
WT(spoken): Hold up.  Not in front of Dumbledore!
LV: Oh.  Sorry.

WT: Avada Kedavra ...	Give the Dark Lord your praise!
Avada Kedavra ...	Cause he's kind of crazed.
It means go kill them all with a simple phrase
It's our Muggle free philosophy - Avada Kedavra





From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Tue Mar 25 16:53:57 2003
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 16:53:57 -0000
Subject: Pickled Toad Awards
In-Reply-To: <20030324004817.52293.qmail@web40306.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <b5q1j7+16en@eGroups.com>

Here are my Pickled Toad selections, and, like Lilac, I've made
up a 
few categories of my own. I've still had to leave out a number of 
worthy filks. 

Best Beatles Song

Gail's Come Together, the character of Voldemort vividly captured
in 
just 19 lines

http://home.att.net/~coriolan/voldemort/voldemort.htm#Come_Together

Runner-Up

Hey Grim Dog, from PoA ? 

http://home.att.net/~coriolan/azkaban.htm#Hey_Grim_Dog

Best Rock Song (non-Beatles)

Potter Fans by Lilac & Gail, with its TBAY setting

http://home.att.net/~coriolan/places/theorybay.htm#Potter_Fans

Runner-Up

Nicole's 21 Things I Want in a DE

http://home.att.net/~coriolan/gofire.htm#21_Things_I_Want_in_a_DE


Best Show Tune

Lisa Inman's The Only Established, via The Oldest Established
from 
Guys and Dolls

http://home.att.net/~coriolan/azkaban.htm#The_Only_Established

George and Fred introduce the Marauder's Map - The first filk to
make 
Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Prongs scan

Runner-up 

Haggrid's Professor Lockhart from 1776 ?

http://home.att.net/~coriolan/secrets.htm#Professor_Lockhart )

Best Disney Filk

Pippin's Second-Task tune Under the Lake (TTTO Under the Sea,
from 
Little Mermaid) - her internal rhymes are brilliant 

http://home.att.net/~coriolan/gofire.htm#Under_the_Lake

Runner-Up:

Voldemort as the Evil Genie of Little Hangleton, via Gryffleraverin: 
You Ain't Never Met a Fiend Like Me

http://home.att.net/~coriolan/gofire.htm#You_Ain't_Never_Met_a_Fiend_L
ike_Me

Best Snape Filk

Mariner's I Am the Very Model of an Anti-Hero Archetype - 

http://home.att.net/~coriolan/faculty/snape.htm#I_Am_the_Very_Model_of
_an_Anti-Hero_Archetype

Runner-up

Snape's "Little" List by Slytherin Sister (also via G & S)

http://home.att.net/~coriolan/faculty/snape.htm#Snape's_Little_List

Best Dramatization of a Scene from Canon:

Gail's Shrieking Shack song The Explanation (from Lez Miz'
The 
Confrontation) incorporates more actual canonic dialogue than any 
other HP filk while remaining true to the meter of the original

http://home.att.net/~coriolan/azkaban.htm#The_Explanation

Runner-Up:

Mariner's Tangled Up in Floo summarizes Harry's accidental
visit to 
Knockturn Alley early in CoS


http://home.att.net/~coriolan/secrets.htm#Tangled_Up_in_Floo

Best Slapstick treatment of a canonic scene (and best use of an 
anagram generator)

Lilac's Voldemort was Once Tom M. Riddle

http://home.att.net/~coriolan/newfilks-
mar.htm#Voldemort_Was_Once_Tom_M._Riddle

Best Setting of a "They said it couldn't be filked" song

Gail's Karkaroff to the tune of Lehrer's Lobachevsky

http://home.att.net/~coriolan/places/durmstrang.htm#Igor_Karkaroff

Best TV Theme

I Love Lucius by Serena Brewer and Audra Hammer

http://home.att.net/~coriolan/voldemort/lucius.htm

Best Movie Song

Pippin's If You'd Just Let Me Explain from the Wizard of Oz,
If I 
only had a brain

http://home.att.net/~coriolan/azkaban.htm#If_You'd_Just_Let_Me_Explain
...

Best Xmas Carols:

The Nativity filks by Melody and Pip

http://home.att.net/~coriolan/stone.htm#Halloween_Night

Best  TBAY filk

Mariner's We're All Evil

http://home.att.net/~coriolan/places/theorybay.htm#We're_All_Evil

Best Quidditch Fight Song

Mariner's Cheat Boldly Slytherin

http://home.att.net/~coriolan/students/fightsongs.htm#Cheat_Boldly,_Sl
ytherin

Funniest Filk

Mariner's One More Handshake (from Weird Al's One More
Minute) offers 
the ultimate Sirius-Severus exchange

http://home.att.net/~coriolan/gofire.htm#One_More_Handshake

Runner-Up

I'll take some credit for inspiring Pippin's Oh My Master
? on HP4GU 
I once prompted  a discussion of Huckleberry Hound (and his encounter 
a Mr. Muggles), which led to a mention of Clementine as Huck's 
favorite tune, which led to the transmogrification of Oh My Darling 
Clemetine into a narrative about the resurrection of the Dark Lord. 
The third line in the fifth stanza offers the single most hilarious 
rhyme on the entire HP filksite (the second funniest being the third 
line of the fourth stanza)

http://home.att.net/~coriolan/voldemort/voldemort.htm#My_Master,_You-
Know-Who

Best Non-Canonic Scenario:

Someone Saved My Life That Night: selkie locates  Harry 30 years 
after the Dark Lord's defeat

http://home.att.net/~coriolan/students/harry.htm#Something_Saved_My_Li
fe_That_Night 

Runner Up:

The Last Waltz: James Potter rescues Lily Evans from a life with 
Lucius Malfoy:

http://home.att.net/~coriolan/students/potters.htm#The_Last_Waltz

Best Shipping Filk:

Audra's What I Like About You, taking place at the Yule Ball

http://home.att.net/~coriolan/students/shipping.htm#What_I_Like_About_
You

Best Filk by a one-time contributor:

Bluemeanies' unambitious Slyths v. Aurors in a West Side Story 
setting:

http://home.att.net/~coriolan/students/malfoy.htm#Gee,_Auror_Moody

Runner-up:

Light Iniquity's world-weary complaint to the Dark Lord: Why Must
You 
Kill Us All?

http://home.att.net/~coriolan/voldemort/oppose.htm#Why_Must_You_Kill_U
s_All?

Best 4-year review of the DADA professors 

Pippin, of course 

http://home.att.net/~coriolan/faculty/dada.htm#All_the_DADA_Teachers


Best Serious Filk (a very small category)

Toby's Howe's The Goblet Game (set to an old folk tune Young
Edwin in 
the Lowlands) is a somber depiction of Harry's mood at the end of 
Book Four. It's so well done that I can't believe Mr. Howe
states he 
has no present plans to write other HP filks (maybe an intensive e-
mail campaign would change his mind)

http://home.att.net/~coriolan/gofire.htm#The_Goblet_Game


Best Summary of an entire book

Gail's Goblet of Fire

http://home.att.net/~coriolan/newfilks.htm#The_Goblet_Of_Fire

Best Title Transformation

I Wanna Hold Your Hand = You'll Cut Off Your Right Hand (no
prizes 
for guessing who sings this to who)

http://home.att.net/~coriolan/voldemort/peter.htm#You'll_Cut_Off_Your_
Right_Hand

Best Filk not on HPF

Who Let the Skrewts Out? By Annie

http://www.geocities.com/hpcentral/songs.html

    -	CMC

HARRY POTTER FILKS 
http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm 





From urbana at charter.net  Tue Mar 25 18:55:29 2003
From: urbana at charter.net (Anne)
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 18:55:29 -0000
Subject: Pickled Toadies: Avada Kedavra
In-Reply-To: <b5po13+g0ap@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b5q8n1+ev8h@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Zach" <cbdm1121 at y...> wrote:
> Avada Kedavra
> (To the tune of Hakuna Matata)
> 
> WORMTAIL: Avada Kedavra ...	Give the Dark Lord your praise!
> Avada Kedavra ...	Cause he's kind of crazed.
> It means go kill them all with a simple phrase
> It's our Muggle-free philosophy - Avada Kedavra
> 
> Why, when he was at Hogwarts
> VOLDEMORT:  When I was at Hogwarts
> WT: He found his social skills had a certain appeal
> He could charm people into doing whatever he'd feel
> LV: They were innocent souls, though I made them sin.
> And it was so cool that I went and changed my skin
> And, oh, - the fame! 
> (WT: He was a - famed!)
> LV: Went and changed my name!
> (WT: Oh, what's in a name?)
> LV: And people got fainthearted
> (WT: How did they feel?)
>  LV: every time that I...
> WT(spoken): Hold up.  Not in front of Dumbledore!
> LV: Oh.  Sorry.
> 
> WT: Avada Kedavra ...	Give the Dark Lord your praise!
> Avada Kedavra ...	Cause he's kind of crazed.
> It means go kill them all with a simple phrase
> It's our Muggle free philosophy - Avada Kedavra

Nice work! So are you going to send this to the "big list" so the 
other 5,000+ people can see it?? :-)

Anne U
(I would if it were mine, but it's not, so you'll have to do it 
yourself!)




From triner918 at aol.com  Tue Mar 25 21:36:10 2003
From: triner918 at aol.com (Trina)
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 21:36:10 -0000
Subject: JKR has baby boy
Message-ID: <b5qi4a+e581@eGroups.com>

Wow I get to scoop this!

Jo had her baby.  Here's the link.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/2883095.stm


You may need to cut and paste; I'm not sure if you can just click and 
go.

Trina, former chatter, current lurker







From lupinesque at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 25 21:39:59 2003
From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z)
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 21:39:59 -0000
Subject: Pickled Toad Awards: another category
In-Reply-To: <b5q1j7+16en@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b5qibf+9ehf@eGroups.com>

Wonderful choices, CMC, but you left out a very important (not to 
mention voluminous) category:  kvetching/celebrating about Book 5.  
My nominee:

Mariner's It's a Book!, 
http://home.att.net/~coriolan/places/waiting2.htm, which features the 
immortal lines

Let us sing!
Let us dance!
Let us nitpick in advance!

Amy
would-be filker who is not worthy to lick Marina's boots




From golden_faile at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 26 01:21:13 2003
From: golden_faile at yahoo.com (golden faile)
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 17:21:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] How Draco looks - JACKPOT!!!
In-Reply-To: <b5nq6u+r8cb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20030326012113.38110.qmail@web41104.mail.yahoo.com>


Omg!!! When I saw that you wrote Chris Walken, I was like NO WAY!!! However, I looked the pictures over anyway. You are right. He does look the way that I imagined Draco!
 
Laila
 brinforest <petra.delisser at postikaista.net> wrote:
Hi,

I can hardly contain myself, because I've just made a most amazing 
discovery. I've never before really determined in my mind what Draco 
Malfoy looks like, but now I know! 

I was half-watching the James Bond movie A View to a Kill, where 
Christopher Walken is about 42 years old and has bleached-blond 
hair, and I just thought OMG, a young version of him would be Draco 
Malfoy spot on! 

Look at this site with his pictures:

http://www.ojai.net/swanson/biography.htm

Especially the one where it says "Walken as a boy" - it even has a 
slight resemblance to Tom Felton, although I've never thought he 
looked quite Draco-ish enough.

So, what do you think??


Brin


Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
var lrec_target="_top";var lrec_URL = new Array();lrec_URL[1] = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.3079700.4403303.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1707544108:HM/A=1430287/R=0/id=flashurl/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405";var link="javascript:LRECopenWindow(1)";var lrec_flashfile = 'http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/intl_library_of_poetry/yahoo_300x250.swf?clickTAG='+link+'';var lrec_altURL = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.3079700.4403303.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1707544108:HM/A=1430287/R=1/id=altimgurl/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405";var lrec_altimg = "http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/intl_library_of_poetry/yahoo_300x250.gif";var lrec_width = 300;var lrec_height = 250;
________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________

Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the group's Admin Files!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/

Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying!

Is your message...
An announcement of merchandise, news etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements.
Movie-related? Send it to HPFGU-Movie.
Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups.
None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter.
Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com

Unsubscribing? Email HPFGU-OTChatter-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
____________________________________________________________ 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From lupinesque at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 26 09:02:37 2003
From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z)
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 09:02:37 -0000
Subject: Pickled Toad Awards
In-Reply-To: <b5q1j7+16en@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b5rqbd+ormk@eGroups.com>

Categories randomly generated by yours truly. 


Best choice of vehicle:  

Caius Marcius's "Azkaban," an unmatchable sales pitch for our 
favorite island resort that also shows off Crouch Sr.'s falsetto

http://home.att.net/~coriolan/places/dementor.htm#Azkaban


Best filk-related illustration:  

Red Scharlach's "Elvis Voldemort and the Dementorettes," which shows 
us just what sequins can do for a man's image

http://home.att.net/~coriolan/voldemort/table3.htm


Best canonical filk of a Dylan song (a category that is all too 
small . . . I'm working on it, I'm working on it!):

Mariner's "Tangled Up in Floo," which comes up with three rhymes 
for "blue" that even Dylan didn't think of, viz. Peru, Achoo!, and 
spew

http://home.att.net/~coriolan/secrets.htm#Tangled_Up_in_Floo


Best non-canonical filk of a Dylan song:

Susan Hall's "The Last Waltz," which is just as complex as, and more 
comprehensible than, its vehicle

http://home.att.net/~coriolan/students/potters.htm#The_Last_Waltz


Best Disney filk:

Caius Marcius's "Superbureaucraticmagicaladministration"

http://home.att.net/~coriolan/places/ministry.htm#Superbureaucraticmag
icaladministration


Line most hazardous to read while drinking anything carbonated:

"I would not be just a nothin', a fugitive stud muffin"

in Pippin's "If You'd Just Let Me Explain"

http://home.att.net/~coriolan/azkaban.htm#If_You'd_Just_Let_Me_Explain
...


Best overview of all of the books:

Diana L's "Harry's in the Castle," even if it does venture the Heir 
of Gryffindor theory

http://home.att.net/~coriolan/newfilks.htm#Harry's_in_the_Castle


Best fanfic-themed filk:

Anne U's "Ode to Mary Sue"

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/53566


Best crossover filk:

Caius Marcius's "This Tolkien Ring"

http://home.att.net/~coriolan/students/harry.htm#This_Tolkien_Ring


Best filk of a tune I don't know:

Haggridd's "You Can Always Count on Me"

http://home.att.net/~coriolan/students/neville.htm#You_Can_Always_Coun
t_On_Me


Best biofilk of Remus Lupin:

Moony and Padfoot's Girl's "I'm a Little Werewolf"

http://home.att.net/~coriolan/faculty/lupin.htm#I'm_A_Little_Werewolf



Amy Z




From briony_coote at hotmail.com  Wed Mar 26 09:09:04 2003
From: briony_coote at hotmail.com (Briony Coote)
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 21:09:04 +1200
Subject: Are there any fanfics on Sirius' escape from Azkaban?
Message-ID: <000a01c2f377$591b14c0$26a6a7cb@oemcomputer>

Are there any fanfics on Sirius's actual escape from Azkaban?  If so,
could someone direct me to them?  Thanks.
 
Briony


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From tahewitt at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 27 01:03:06 2003
From: tahewitt at yahoo.com (Tyler Hewitt)
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 01:03:06 -0000
Subject: Alan Rickman sings!...
Message-ID: <b5tika+e3nh@eGroups.com>

...or tries to!

follow the link:
http://www.aprilwinchell.com/multimedia/
There's lots of mp3 files of the 'golden throats' variety-celebrities 
who probably should never have been allowed into a recording 
studio.
Alan Rickman has a track titled 'Intelligence'. It's um, interesting.

Tyler




From trinity61us at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 27 03:52:52 2003
From: trinity61us at yahoo.com (alex fox)
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 19:52:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Alan Rickman sings!...
In-Reply-To: <b5tika+e3nh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20030327035252.35079.qmail@web14914.mail.yahoo.com>


Thanks!!!! This whole site is just TOO funny!!!!!!! Will be spending hours there playing terrible songs!!! I love stuff like this!
Alex Fox
 Tyler Hewitt <tahewitt at yahoo.com> wrote:...or tries to!

follow the link:
http://www.aprilwinchell.com/multimedia/
There's lots of mp3 files of the 'golden throats' variety-celebrities 
who probably should never have been allowed into a recording 
studio.
Alan Rickman has a track titled 'Intelligence'. It's um, interesting.

Tyler


Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
var lrec_target="_top";var lrec_URL = new Array();lrec_URL[1] = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.3098817.4420487.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1707544108:HM/A=1430287/R=0/id=flashurl/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405";var link="javascript:LRECopenWindow(1)";var lrec_flashfile = 'http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/intl_library_of_poetry/yahoo_300x250.swf?clickTAG='+link+'';var lrec_altURL = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.3098817.4420487.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1707544108:HM/A=1430287/R=1/id=altimgurl/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405";var lrec_altimg = "http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/intl_library_of_poetry/yahoo_300x250.gif";var lrec_width = 300;var lrec_height = 250;
________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________

Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the group's Admin Files!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/

Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying!

Is your message...
An announcement of merchandise, news etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements.
Movie-related? Send it to HPFGU-Movie.
Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups.
None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter.
Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com

Unsubscribing? Email HPFGU-OTChatter-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
____________________________________________________________ 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From editor at texas.net  Thu Mar 27 04:08:54 2003
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist)
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 22:08:54 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Alan Rickman sings!...
References: <b5tika+e3nh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000201c2f418$68cdb7a0$926763d1@texas.net>

Tyler jeered:

> ...or tries to!
>
> follow the link:
> http://www.aprilwinchell.com/multimedia/
> There's lots of mp3 files of the 'golden throats' variety-celebrities
> who probably should never have been allowed into a recording
> studio.
> Alan Rickman has a track titled 'Intelligence'. It's um, interesting.

It's a song from the animated children's movie "Help, I'm a Fish." It was
produced in Denmark or thereabouts, and has been released in the UK, but
not, alas, in the United States (I refuse to buy bootleg copies on eBay).
Alan Rickman does the voice of (what else?) the villain; a shark, I believe.

He didn't go into a studio to record this song for release. He has no
delusions of a singing career. It was part of a feature. Stars who are not
singers, but who can carry a tune, end up doing this sort of thing all the
time when they "voice" animation.

People who post snarky opinions should get all their facts first.

~Amanda




From urbana at charter.net  Thu Mar 27 04:34:06 2003
From: urbana at charter.net (Anne)
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 04:34:06 -0000
Subject: Alan Rickman sings!...
In-Reply-To: <20030327035252.35079.qmail@web14914.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <b5tuvu+hre8@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, alex fox <trinity61us at y...> 
wrote:
> 
> Thanks!!!! This whole site is just TOO funny!!!!!!! Will be 
spending hours there playing terrible songs!!! I love stuff like this!


It's really scary how many songs of Leonard Nimoy are on this 
site...So where are the William Shatner songs??

Anne U
(sleeping alongside the Giant Squid at the bottom of Hogwarts Lake, I 
hope!!)




From joym999 at aol.com  Thu Mar 27 19:47:52 2003
From: joym999 at aol.com (joywitch_m_curmudgeon)
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 19:47:52 -0000
Subject: Alan Rickman sings!...
In-Reply-To: <b5tuvu+hre8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b5vkh8+9v5a@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Anne" <urbana at c...> wrote:

> It's really scary how many songs of Leonard Nimoy are on this 
> site...So where are the William Shatner songs??
> 
> Anne U
> (sleeping alongside the Giant Squid at the bottom of Hogwarts Lake, 
I 
> hope!!)

I hope too.  Has anyone ever had the misfortune to hear the recording 
of William Shatner "singing" the song *Mr. Tamborine Man*?  Truly one 
of the scariest experiences of my life.

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Amanda Geist" <editor at t...> 
wrote about the criticism of Alan Rickman's recordings:

> People who post snarky opinions should get all their facts first.

Speaking of scary, I have to send a WARNING to all members of this 
list: You can snark about God, Country and even George Dubya around 
Amanda and merely get rotten tomatoes thrown at you (I should know, I 
look like I was dunked in spaghetti sauce.) but insulting Alan Rickman
around Amanda is like insulting Albus Dumbledore around Hagrid.  
Don't say I didn't warn you when you wind up with a pig's tail.

--Joywitch




From lupinesque at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 27 20:14:07 2003
From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z)
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 20:14:07 -0000
Subject: Alan Rickman sings!...
In-Reply-To: <b5vkh8+9v5a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b5vm2f+8a04@eGroups.com>

The Curmudgeon wrote:

>Has anyone ever had the misfortune to hear the recording 
> of William Shatner "singing" the song *Mr. Tamborine Man*?  Truly 
one 
> of the scariest experiences of my life.

"Mr. Tambourine Man . . . MISTER TAMBOURINE MAN!!!"

Also, his rendition of "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds" is not to be 
missed.  John Lennon is a pathetic wannabe compared to the great WS.

Amy
who knows better than to say anything bad about Alan Rickman in 
Amanda's hearing, especially if it's true.  Tyler, put some ice on 
that nose and the swelling will go down in no time




From gandharvika at hotmail.com  Thu Mar 27 21:19:55 2003
From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek)
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 21:19:55 +0000
Subject: Pickled Toadies Awards Nominations
Message-ID: <F96bDKB0v9kD6DZ0UUI00004f96@hotmail.com>

Man, it wasn't easy with so many great filks to choose from.

As for the categories, I borrowed from previous posts as well as added a 
couple of my own to create my list.
*******************************************************

Best Filk:
_I Am The Very Model Of An Anti-Hero Archetype_ by Mariner to the tune of _I 
Am The Very Model Of A Modern Major General from The Pirates of Penzance 
_...I can't get through reading this one without cracking up.
http://home.att.net/~coriolan/faculty/snape.htm#I_Am_the_Very_Model_of_an_Anti-Hero_Archetype


Best Filk From A Musical:
_You're The Top_ by Debbie to the tune of _You're The Top_ from the Musical 
_Anything Goes_
http://home.att.net/~coriolan/students/shipping.htm#You're_the_Top

*Runner Up:
_My Lord_ by Eloise to the tune of _Mien Herr_ from the musical _Cabaret_
http://home.att.net/~coriolan/places/theorybay.htm#My_Lord

Best Beatle Filk:
(Hope you don't think I'm a Humongous Bighead for this one)
_The Ballad of Harry Potter_ to the tune of _The Ballad Of John And Yoko_
http://home.att.net/~coriolan/gofire.htm#The_Ballad_Of_Harry_Potter

*Runner-Up
_DADA Teachers_ by Pippin to the tune of _Eleanor Rigby_
http://home.att.net/~coriolan/faculty/dada.htm#All_the_DADA_Teachers


Best Disney Filk:
_Lockhart_ by Nichole to the tune of _Gaston_ from Disney's _Beauty And The 
Beast_...I have this entire filk perfectly visualized in my mind complete 
with a choreographed dance sequence
http://home.att.net/~coriolan/faculty/lockhart.htm#Lockhart

*Runner-Up
_Superbureaucraticmagicaladministration_ by CMC to the tune of 
_Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious!_ from Disney's _Mary Poppins_
http://home.att.net/~coriolan/places/ministry.htm#Superbureaucraticmagicaladministration

Best Gershwin Filk:
_Let's Hold The Fan-Fic Off_ by Pippin to the tune of _Let's Call The Whole 
Thing Off...very catchy.
http://home.att.net/~coriolan/students/malfoy.htm#Let's_Hold_The_Fanfic_Off


Best Tom Lehrer Filk:
_Torturing Muggles In the Dark_ by Mariner to the tune _Poisoning Pigeons In 
the Park_
http://home.att.net/~coriolan/voldemort/lucius.htm#Torturing_Muggles_in_the_Dark


Best TBay Filk: A Tie (which means I honestly can't make up my mind)
_The Trek Of The MAGIC DISHWASHER_ by CMC to the tune of _The Wreck Of The 
Edmund Fitzgerald_ by Gordon Lightfoot...the first line of the filk alone is 
great!
http://home.att.net/~coriolan/places/theorybay.htm#The_Trek_of_the_MAGIC_DISHWASHER

*AND*

_Potter Fans_ by Lilac and Gail to the tune of _Piano Man_ by Billy Joel
http://home.att.net/~coriolan/places/theorybay.htm#Potter_Fans


Best SHIP Filk:
_Happy With Viktor_ by Pippin to the tune of _Happy Together_ by the 
Turtles...."What am I, chopped liver?"
http://home.att.net/~coriolan/students/shipping.htm#Happy_with_Viktor


Best Serious Filk:
_Mother's Love_ by Lilac to the tune _Landslide_ by Stevie Nicks
http://home.att.net/~coriolan/students/potters.htm#Mother's_Love


Funniest Filk:
_One More Handshake_ by Mariner to the tune _One More Minute_ by Weird Al 
Yankovic...you can't imagine how much I laughed when I first read this one.
http://home.att.net/~coriolan/gofire.htm#One_More_Handshake


Best Dramatization Of A Scene:
_Tangled Up In Floo_ by Mariner to the tune _Tangled Up In Blue_ by Bob 
Dylan
http://home.att.net/~coriolan/secrets.htm#Tangled_Up_in_Floo


Best Christmas Carols:
_The TBay Christmas Carols_ by Pip and Melody
http://home.att.net/~coriolan/stone.htm#Halloween_Night


Best Title Transformation:
_The Brat I Enabled_ by CMC to the tune of _The Cat In The Cradle by Henry 
Chapin
http://home.att.net/~coriolan/voldemort/lucius.htm#The_Brat_I_Enabled

*Runner-Ups:
_Bringing In My Reign_ by CMC to the tune _Singing In The Rain_ by
http://home.att.net/~coriolan/places/waiting2.htm#Bringin'_In_My_Reign

_Mr. Black You Made A Fine Marauder_ by Tann to the tune _Mrs. Brown You've 
Got A Lovely Daughter_ by Hermann's Hermits
http://home.att.net/~coriolan/students/marauders.htm#Mr._Black,_You_Made_a_Fine_Marauder


Best Choice Of Vehicle:
_Hogwarts's Dream Rhapsody_ by Pippin to the tune _Bohemian Rhapsody_ by 
Queen
http://home.att.net/~coriolan/places/theorybay.htm#Hogwarts_Dream_Rhapsody


Best Filk With Repetitious Lines:
_If We Had A Million Galleons_ by Lilac to the tune _If I Had A Million 
Dollars_ by the Barenaked Ladies...have to say that this was the filk which 
first inspired me to write my own.
http://home.att.net/~coriolan/students/weasleys.htm#If_We_Had_A_Million_Galleons


Best Filk Of A Tune I Don't (Didn't) Know:
_Professor Lockhart_ by Haggridd to the tune _But Mr. Adams_ from the 
musical 1776...mocking Lockhart is a favorite pastime of mine and I liked 
this filk so much I finally broke down and purchased the CD for 1776 just so 
I could sing along to it.
http://home.att.net/~coriolan/secrets.htm#Professor_Lockhart

Best Filk From An Obscure Song:
_Forbidden Curses_ by Cassie to the tune _Forbidden Hades_  the Sera Myu, 
Tanjou! Ankoku no Purinsesu Burakku Redii
http://home.att.net/~coriolan/voldemort/curses.htm#Forbidden_Curses



-Gail B...who still feels like this list is incomplete and hopes she isn't 
missing anything...

_________________________________________________________________
Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. 
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail




From jmholmes at kjsl.com  Thu Mar 27 21:59:55 2003
From: jmholmes at kjsl.com (slytherincess)
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 21:59:55 -0000
Subject: Pickled Toad Awards
Message-ID: <b5vs8r+t26i@eGroups.com>

Haggridd wrote:

<I would imagine that if you felt that your filk was the best one in a
particular category, then you should nominate it.>

I had asked if we could submit our own work. No, I wasn't trying to 
imply that at all (well, okay, I do happen to love my Draco's 
Hairbrush song, based on the VeggieTales tune...but seeing as it's a 
*Draco* FILK, I'm allowed to feel grandiose about it ;). I was truly 
just curious about the process. As I'm newish to this list, I think 
the better thing to do would be to post them here first, for fun, 
eventually. Thanks!

~Julie
(Slytherincess)




From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 28 00:35:45 2003
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 00:35:45 -0000
Subject: Pickled Toads:  Award Categories
Message-ID: <b605d1+1n8d@eGroups.com>

Okay, the consensus on categries for the 2003 Pickled Toad Awards 
(the "Pickled Toadies") so far are as follows:

1. Best filk from a musical (best show tune).

2. Best filk from a movie soundtrack.

3. Best TV filk.

4. Best Gershwin filk (I dunno about this one.  All of his songs were 
from musicals or movies, but if there are enough written for a 
separate category, then so be it.)

5. Best filk from rock & roll.

6. Best Beatles filk.

7. Best Disney filk.

8. Best Tom Lehrer filk.

9. Best Christmas Carol (or Chanukkah or Kwanza or Ramadan)filk.

10. Best filk of a tune not known to the listener.

11. Best TBAY filk.

12. Best SHIP filk.

13. Best serious filk.

14. Funniest filk.

15. Best Dramatization of a scene from canon.

16. Funniest treatment of a scene from canon.

17. And, last but not least, Best Filk.

I envision possibly closing nominations at the end of May, and voting 
via HPFGU-OTC poll (maybe on the main list too if the mods approve) 
through June, with actual physical awards-- wait till you see them-- 
to be presented during Nimbus 2003 (or mailed to the winers unable to 
attend).

Any comments, additions, suggestions to consolidate categories I 
would like to whittle down the list to a more manageable number, if 
at all possible, else we'll end up with one-filk categories.  
Best choice of vehicle.

Please comment either here or to me offlist.

-Haggridd





From dradamsapple at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 28 06:23:57 2003
From: dradamsapple at yahoo.com (dradamsapple)
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 06:23:57 -0000
Subject: Alan Rickman sings!...
In-Reply-To: <b5tika+e3nh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b60ppt+q7np@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Hewitt" 
<tahewitt at y...> wrote:
> ...or tries to!
> 
> follow the link:
> http://www.aprilwinchell.com/multimedia/
> There's lots of mp3 files of the 'golden throats' variety-
celebrities 
> who probably should never have been allowed into a recording 
> studio.
> Alan Rickman has a track titled 'Intelligence'. It's um, 
interesting.
> 
> Tyler


Oh My,

I just listened to "Stairway to Gilligan's Island" (way down the list 
as you scroll through the, er, songs).
I had to stop it half way through; I mean, If that's not a nightmare 
waiting to happen I don't know what is!!

Great site though Tyler.  Thanks for sharing.
Now I have some entertainment for my family party in a couple of 
weeks. lol!

Anna . . .




From macloudt at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Mar 28 10:27:30 2003
From: macloudt at yahoo.co.uk (Mary Ann)
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 10:27:30 -0000
Subject: Birthday Greetings!
Message-ID: <b6182i+rg68@eGroups.com>

:::::Dizzy Elf walks into the room carrying a large chocolate cake.  
Her mouth is smeared with icing:::::

Hey, it's a perk of the job, OK?

Anyway, we have another birthday to celebrate!  Today's greetings go 
out to Kim B.  All greetings can be sent to the List.

Have a fab day, Kim, and I hope you get lots of HP goodies!

Mary Ann
(off to scrape the rest of the icing bowl clean)




From gingerssnape1966 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 28 13:22:52 2003
From: gingerssnape1966 at yahoo.com (gingerssnape1966)
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 13:22:52 -0000
Subject: Pickled Toadies
In-Reply-To: <b605d1+1n8d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b61ibc+glhd@eGroups.com>

Uffda!  Lots of categories!  I can't fill them all, but here are the 
ones that popped into my head:

Previously mentioned:  One More Handshake 
(had to get that one in even though others mentioned it too)

Favourite:  "Hermione" by Melody on McCavity from Andrew Lloyd 
Weber's Cats.  It's the visual-I have the movie committed to memory, 
and picturing Rupert Grint and Daniel Radcliffe as Demeter and 
Bombularina nearly knocked me off my chair.  The moves!
http://home.att.net/~coriolan/students/hermione.htm#+Hermione 

Beatles:  Dobby Road.  Yeah, the whole thing.  by Gail, Pippin and 
Lilac (sorry if I missed anyone-they're not all together)  I have to 
pick a favourite?  Hmmm...Golden Snitches by Gail
http://home.att.net/~coriolan/secrets.htm

Musical:  Let Me This Task Get Through by CMC on All I Ask of You by 
Andrew Lloyd Weber from Phantom of the Opera
http://home.att.net/~coriolan/gofire.htm#Let_Me_This_Task_Get_Through

That's the big ones, although most anything by the Beatles rocks with 
me.  
Happy Filking!
Ginger




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Fri Mar 28 16:29:24 2003
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 16:29:24 -0000
Subject: Pickled Toadies Awards Nominations
In-Reply-To: <F96bDKB0v9kD6DZ0UUI00004f96@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <b61t94+aeqb@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Gail Bohacek" 
<gandharvika at h...> wrote:

> Best Choice Of Vehicle:
> _Hogwarts's Dream Rhapsody_ by Pippin to the tune 
_Bohemian Rhapsody_ by 
> Queen
> 
http://home.att.net/~coriolan/places/theorybay.htm#Hogwarts_Dr
eam_Rhapsody
>

I second! But alas, I can't take any credit for this one. That goes 
to our darling Pip!Squeak. (She's the one with the MDDT 
sweatshirt, I'm the one with the Evil!Lupin Hedgehog.)

Pippin
who would like to thank the academy...and everyone who's 
nominated anything I actually did write, and will come up with her  
own nominees real soon now...so many filks, so little time.




From Malady579 at hotmail.com  Sat Mar 29 02:19:49 2003
From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody)
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 02:19:49 -0000
Subject: Pickled Toadies suggestion
In-Reply-To: <b605d1+1n8d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b62vs5+pc1p@eGroups.com>

I don't think this is really an additional category for the Pickled
Toadies, but I started to wonder something.

Amung the major filkers on the site, or actually any novice also, what
is your favorite filk that *you* wrote.  Everyone has one that they
have a certain affection for whether because it was extremely hard to
filk, a favorite tune, or you just are proud you managed to find that
one rhyme.

I just was curious, and it is always fun to hear those stories behind
creativity.  Plus also, I think these filkers are being modest in
their suggestions.  ;)


Melody




From annemehr at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 29 05:27:41 2003
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr)
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 05:27:41 -0000
Subject: To the Long-Time Listees
Message-ID: <b63asd+abd5@eGroups.com>

As a relatively new listee (joined September '02), I can't help 
wondering how you older listees see the main HP list these days.  I 
did do some reading of the old year 2000 posts and recognized some of 
your names from nowadays -- Cindy C. still posts fairly often, and I 
believe Queer As John was posting a bit last September or October, and 
there are others.

Do you guys see much at all that you haven't seen 100 times before?  
Maybe many of you just pop in once in a while just to see if anything 
interesting has come up?  I know that even I am now seeing subjects 
reintroduced that I have seen hashed out once or twice since *I* 
joined!

I must say, I am looking forward to the OoP posts partly to see who 
all we hear from, that we haven't for a long time!

Annemehr
who will have to share OoP with her oldest daughter, and hopes she can 
get it read fast enough not to get too behind on the list!




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Sat Mar 29 05:36:34 2003
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 05:36:34 -0000
Subject: Pickled Toads:  Award Categories
In-Reply-To: <b605d1+1n8d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b63bd2+kic9@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Haggridd" 
<jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:
> Okay, the consensus on categries for the 2003 Pickled Toad Awards 
> (the "Pickled Toadies") so far are as follows:
> 
> 1. Best filk from a musical (best show tune).
> 
> 2. Best filk from a movie soundtrack.
> 
> 3. Best TV filk.

There aren't that many (less than a dozen), so maybe it's not worth 
creating a separate category here

> 
> 4. Best Gershwin filk (I dunno about this one.  All of his songs 
were 
> from musicals or movies, but if there are enough written for a 
> separate category, then so be it.)

I would suggest a "Best Tin-Pan Alley" filk category instead, so we 
could also include all the Cole Porter, Hoagy Carmichael, Irving 
Berlin, et al derived filks. I've only done a few Gershwin filks 
(Gershwin is hard to filk!) but quite a few Cole Porter. 

> 
> 5. Best filk from rock & roll.

I would suggest sub-dividing this to "oldies" (50s to 70s) and 
contemporary (80s to the present)

> 
> 6. Best Beatles filk.
> 
> 7. Best Disney filk.
> 
> 8. Best Tom Lehrer filk.
> 
> 9. Best Christmas Carol (or Chanukkah or Kwanza or Ramadan)filk.
> 
> 10. Best filk of a tune not known to the listener.
> 
> 11. Best TBAY filk.
> 
> 12. Best SHIP filk.
> 
> 13. Best serious filk.
> 
> 14. Funniest filk.
> 
> 15. Best Dramatization of a scene from canon.
> 
> 16. Funniest treatment of a scene from canon.
> 
> 17. And, last but not least, Best Filk.
> 
> I envision possibly closing nominations at the end of May, and 
voting 
> via HPFGU-OTC poll (maybe on the main list too if the mods approve) 
> through June, with actual physical awards-- wait till you see them--
 
> to be presented during Nimbus 2003 (or mailed to the winers unable 
to 
> attend).
> 
> Any comments, additions, suggestions to consolidate categories I 
> would like to whittle down the list to a more manageable number, if 
> at all possible, else we'll end up with one-filk categories.  
> Best choice of vehicle.
> 
> Please comment either here or to me offlist.
> 

This sounds good. I might suggest adding a category for best Gilbert 
and Sullivan filk as well. 

As for scoring, I would say each voter should be able to name one 
first choice, and one runner-up. First Choice is worth two points. 
runner-up one point. 

   - CMC





From john at queerasjohn.com  Sat Mar 29 11:19:54 2003
From: john at queerasjohn.com (Queer as John)
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 11:19:54 +0000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] To the Long-Time Listees
In-Reply-To: <b63asd+abd5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <BAAB31DA.AEF9%john@queerasjohn.com>

annemehr said:

> As a relatively new listee (joined September '02), I can't help
> wondering how you older listees see the main HP list these days.  I
> did do some reading of the old year 2000 posts and recognized some of
> your names from nowadays -- Cindy C. still posts fairly often, and I
> believe Queer As John was posting a bit last September or October, and
> there are others.

*waves walking-stick from rocking-chair on the front porch*

You're right in that we've seen most stuff before. However, particularly
from a Moddy point of view, we old codgers (says the college student...)
realise that we, too, once thought that /we/ discovered Dumbledore's Gleam
and Arabella Figg. Everyone's a newbie somewhere, sometime, and that's okay.
Looking through our rose-tinted glasses, we know that it's fun to discover a
group like this, even if we've discussed it all as much as we want to.

> Do you guys see much at all that you haven't seen 100 times before?
> Maybe many of you just pop in once in a while just to see if anything
> interesting has come up?  I know that even I am now seeing subjects
> reintroduced that I have seen hashed out once or twice since *I*
> joined!

I tend to skim OT-Chatter and dip into the main list every so often if a
subject that looks interesting comes up.

> I must say, I am looking forward to the OoP posts partly to see who
> all we hear from, that we haven't for a long time!

So are we! *grins*

> Annemehr
> who will have to share OoP with her oldest daughter, and hopes she can
> get it read fast enough not to get too behind on the list!

Did you vote in the poll about possibly closing the list for a day or two?
We'd love to have your input!

Cheers,

--John

______________________________________

Queer as John || john at queerasjohn.com

AIM, YM & LJ @ QueerAsJohn || www.queerasjohn.com

Do not meddle in the affairs of gay dragons, for thou art crunchy
and taste good with a ragout of cherry tomatoes, shredded basil
and an almond-raspberry vinaigrette on a bed of braised grape leaves.
______________________________________




From keegan at mcn.org  Sat Mar 29 14:58:52 2003
From: keegan at mcn.org (Catherine Keegan)
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 06:58:52 -0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] To the Long-Time Listees
In-Reply-To: <b63asd+abd5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20030329065450.00367f98@localhost>

At 09:27 PM 3/28/2003 , you wrote:
>As a relatively new listee (joined September '02), I can't help
>wondering how you older listees see the main HP list these days.

I used to post over a year ago.  Now, I just sort of skim this and the 
other lists.

>Do you guys see much at all that you haven't seen 100 times before?
>Maybe many of you just pop in once in a while just to see if anything
>interesting has come up?  I know that even I am now seeing subjects
>reintroduced that I have seen hashed out once or twice since *I*
>joined!

That and, quite frankly, the few times I did try to play on the main list, 
I was either ignored completely (which I can cope with) or received a rude 
response.   I wasn't interested in the rather wild RPG that was going on 
for quite  a while and slowly found myself reading the posts less and 
less.  I thought I'd check back in after OotP is published and see what's 
going on.

Catherine from California who now spends most of her online Pottertime at 
Fiction Alley



From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Mar 29 15:47:16 2003
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 15:47:16 -0000
Subject: To the Long-Time Listees
In-Reply-To: <b63asd+abd5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b64f64+t6vt@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" <annemehr at y...> 
wrote:
> As a relatively new listee (joined September '02), I can't help 
> wondering how you older listees see the main HP list these days.  I 
> did do some reading of the old year 2000 posts and recognized some
> of your names from nowadays -- Cindy C. still posts fairly often,
> and I believe Queer As John was posting a bit last September or 
> October, and there are others.

I joined HPfGU before GoF was published, so I guess I count.
 
> Do you guys see much at all that you haven't seen 100 times before?
> Maybe many of you just pop in once in a while just to see if
> anything interesting has come up?  I know that even I am now seeing
> subjects reintroduced that I have seen hashed out once or twice 
> since *I* joined!

My intention is to read all the posts on the main list and on OT (in 
honor of my oldness, two or three times I have moaned: "Oh, gods, I 
can't read *this*" and closed a post I found ultimately boring) and 
so far I have succeeded. My problem is that I don't have enough time 
to go on-line, so I try to catch up with a week's worth of posts on 
Friday night and/or Saturday ... last night I was asleep, so I still 
have 400-? posts accumulated on the main list to read today ... 
before my 5pm get-together with RL friends ...

I kind of dread the OoP release, because the activity on the list 
will increase so much that I fear I won't be able to keep up.

Another way I indulge myself, on excuse of old-ness, is I created 
some .txt files that started as copies of my posts on certain topics, 
topics on which it could be said that I obsess, so when I see that 
some poster needs to be enlightened with my certainty on e.g. the 
relationship between wizarding technology and Muggle technology, I 
can copy copy & paste the .txt file into my reply post. I only do 
that if no one else has enlighted the person by the time I do my 
catch-up reading. 

But IIRC the question was whether I ever see anything totally new 
that I've never seen before posted. The answer is yes, but I think it 
is less often than once a week. Far more common is new expansions on 
on-going topics.




From tahewitt at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 29 17:35:02 2003
From: tahewitt at yahoo.com (Tyler Hewitt)
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 09:35:02 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Alan Rickman sings...
In-Reply-To: <1048951687.756.38079.m12@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <20030329173502.57179.qmail@web14203.mail.yahoo.com>



Joywitch wrote:
Speaking of scary, I have to send a WARNING to all
members of this list: You can snark about God, Country
and even George Dubya around Amanda and merely get
rotten tomatoes thrown at you (I should know, I look
like I was dunked in spaghetti sauce.) but insulting
Alan Rickman around Amanda is like insulting Albus
Dumbledore around Hagrid.  Don't say I didn't warn you
when you wind up with a pig's tail.

And this from Amy:
Amy
who knows better than to say anything bad about Alan
Rickman in Amanda's hearing, especially if it's true. 
Tyler, put some ice on that nose and the swelling will
go down in no time


Now me:
Thanks for the heads up, although it came a little
late. The swellings gone down now, just some slight
discoloration around the eyes. I may have to have all
my pants altered to accomodate the pigs tail,
however!
Seriously, I didnt mean any real disrespect towards
Alan Rickman, more a good natured ribbing. I think
hes a good actor, and much bigger celebs have made
much worse records! I personally enjoy it when celebs
I like make these types of missteps (here comes a
tomato-better duck!), it makes them seem somehow more
human and less larger than life.
Ive collected odd records of various sorts for at
least 15 years, and am on a couple of e-mail
discussion groups dedicated to unusual music, so
coming across that song and posting the link was done
without a second thought.
>From the number of positive replies my post recieved,
it looks as though several of you enjoy this stuff. 
Heres another link:
http://www.otisfodder.com/365days/365archive.html
This guy is posting a new unusual mp3 file every day
this year. These are not just bad celecrity
recordings, but all types of weird and unusual things.
Its a mixed bag, as youd expect from this type of
project, but lots of fun things can be found there.
Check out the track from Feb. 7. Extremely puerile,
but it made me laugh!  The links are interesting as
well, with tons of unusual music to explore there.

Tyler

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
http://platinum.yahoo.com



From golden_faile at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 29 18:34:46 2003
From: golden_faile at yahoo.com (golden faile)
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 10:34:46 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] To the Long-Time Listees
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20030329065450.00367f98@localhost>
Message-ID: <20030329183446.49387.qmail@web41104.mail.yahoo.com>


 
 Catherine Keegan <keegan at mcn.org> wrote:
That and, quite frankly, the few times I did try to play on the main list, 
I was either ignored completely (which I can cope with) or received a rude 
response.

Catherine from California who now spends most of her online Pottertime at 
Fiction Alley
  

Laila:

I've had that happen. I think it's just that evryone gets so much mail that it's hard to answer alot of times. There are alot that I don't get to read. I do understand what you are saying, it does sort of make you feel like a non-person to have evryone skip over your posts, and rudeness is no excuse. My first couple of list experiences weren't all that friendly, except for a handful of people, so I sort of lurk myself unless there is something new or interesting that I just have to respond to;).
Laila
 

 



 
Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
var lrec_target="_top";var lrec_URL = new Array();lrec_URL[1] = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.3098817.4420487.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1707544108:HM/A=1430287/R=0/id=flashurl/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405";var link="javascript:LRECopenWindow(1)";var lrec_flashfile = 'http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/intl_library_of_poetry/yahoo_300x250.swf?clickTAG='+link+'';var lrec_altURL = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.3098817.4420487.1612068/D=egroupweb/S=1707544108:HM/A=1430287/R=1/id=altimgurl/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405";var lrec_altimg = "http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/intl_library_of_poetry/yahoo_300x250.gif";var lrec_width = 300;var lrec_height = 250;
________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________

Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the group's Admin Files!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/

Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying!

Is your message...
An announcement of merchandise, news etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements.
Movie-related? Send it to HPFGU-Movie.
Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups.
None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter.
Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com

Unsubscribing? Email HPFGU-OTChatter-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
____________________________________________________________ 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From susannahlm at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 29 18:57:18 2003
From: susannahlm at yahoo.com (derannimer)
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 18:57:18 -0000
Subject: "Rather Wild RPG"
Message-ID: <b64qaf+dmmf@eGroups.com>

Catherine wrote:  

>I wasn't interested in the rather wild RPG that was going on 
>for quite a while and slowly found myself reading the posts less and 
>less. 

The huh?

Oh!

TBAY? 

::Derannimer mulls it over for a while, and then finally nods.::

I don't know that I'd call it an RPG. But yeah, it is kind of weird, 
I guess. 

; )




Derannimer (who would just like to point out that TBAY is 
still 'going on.' Which is just as well, because it would be stupid 
to be writing TBAY posts all by herself.) 




From golden_faile at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 29 19:00:25 2003
From: golden_faile at yahoo.com (golden faile)
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 11:00:25 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] "Rather Wild RPG"
In-Reply-To: <b64qaf+dmmf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20030329190025.53248.qmail@web41104.mail.yahoo.com>


 
 derannimer <susannahlm at yahoo.com> wrote:
The huh?

Oh!

TBAY? 

::Derannimer mulls it over for a while, and then finally nods.::

I don't know that I'd call it an RPG. But yeah, it is kind of weird, 
I guess. 



I have been meaning to ask about that for some time now. Can someone please explain.

 
Laila





Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
var lrec_target="_top";var lrec_URL = new Array();lrec_URL[1] = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.3098817.4420487.1456763/D=egroupweb/S=1707544108:HM/A=1430287/R=0/id=flashurl/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405";var link="javascript:LRECopenWindow(1)";var lrec_flashfile = 'http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/intl_library_of_poetry/yahoo_300x250.swf?clickTAG='+link+'';var lrec_altURL = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.3098817.4420487.1456763/D=egroupweb/S=1707544108:HM/A=1430287/R=1/id=altimgurl/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405";var lrec_altimg = "http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/intl_library_of_poetry/yahoo_300x250.gif";var lrec_width = 300;var lrec_height = 250;
________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________

Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the group's Admin Files!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/

Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying!

Is your message...
An announcement of merchandise, news etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements.
Movie-related? Send it to HPFGU-Movie.
Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups.
None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter.
Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com

Unsubscribing? Email HPFGU-OTChatter-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
____________________________________________________________ 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Mar 29 19:15:07 2003
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 19:15:07 -0000
Subject: Alan Rickman sings!...
In-Reply-To: <000201c2f418$68cdb7a0$926763d1@texas.net>
Message-ID: <b64rbr+54ff@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Amanda Geist" <editor at t...> 
wrote:

> Alan Rickman does the voice of (what else?) the villain; a shark,
> I believe.

Why did a shark refer to "a pearl in the palm of your hand"?





From abigailnus at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 29 23:11:14 2003
From: abigailnus at yahoo.com (abigailnus)
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 23:11:14 -0000
Subject: "Rather Wild RPG"
In-Reply-To: <20030329190025.53248.qmail@web41104.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <b6596i+idqo@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, golden faile <golden_faile at y...> wrote:
> 
>  
>  derannimer <susannahlm at y...> wrote:
> The huh?
> 
> Oh!
> 
> TBAY? 
> 
> ::Derannimer mulls it over for a while, and then finally nods.::
> 
> I don't know that I'd call it an RPG. But yeah, it is kind of weird, 
> I guess. 
> 
> 
> 
> I have been meaning to ask about that for some time now. Can someone please explain.

I'm not sure exactly when and how TBAY was started, although I'm pretty certain there's an explanation of its history in th Fantastic Posts (which you can access from www.hpfgu.co.uk).  TBAY is short for Theory Bay, which is an imaginary place where personifications of theorists can meet and argue.  I guess it could be described as an RPG, except that all TBAY adventures revolve around hashing out theories.  Basically, TBAY is a way of phrasing discussions as actual arguments between people who are standing around talking to each other, which people invariably find either incredibly cool or incredibly strange.  It can be both.  Whether or not you choose to post in TBAY style is entirely your decision, and I wouldn't recommend it to a newbie.  Better to stick around a while and get to know everybody first.  Finally, it's important to remember that it's perfectly alright to respond to a TBAY post in non-TBAY style - after all, what we're here for is the theories, not TBAY.  However, I can tell you from personal experience that once you go TBAY, you never look back.

Hope that was what you were looking for,
Abigail
Who joined HPfGU in December '01 and is now wondering if that makes her an old-timer.




From golden_faile at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 30 00:05:23 2003
From: golden_faile at yahoo.com (golden faile)
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 16:05:23 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: "Rather Wild RPG"
In-Reply-To: <b6596i+idqo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <20030330000523.79391.qmail@web41115.mail.yahoo.com>


 
 abigailnus <abigailnus at yahoo.com> wrote:
--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, golden faile <golden_faile at y...> wrote:
> 
>  > 
> 
> I have been meaning to ask about that for some time now. Can someone please explain.

I'm not sure exactly when and how TBAY was started, although I'm pretty certain there's an explanation of its history in th Fantastic Posts (which you can access from www.hpfgu.co.uk).  TBAY is short for Theory Bay, which is an imaginary place where personifications of theorists can meet and argue.  I guess it could be described as an RPG, except that all TBAY adventures revolve around hashing out theories.  Basically, TBAY is a way of phrasing discussions as actual arguments between people who are standing around talking to each other, which people invariably find either incredibly cool or incredibly strange.  It can be both.  Whether or not you choose to post in TBAY style is entirely your decision, and I wouldn't recommend it to a newbie.  Better to stick around a while and get to know everybody first.  Finally, it's important to remember that it's perfectly alright to respond to a TBAY post in non-TBAY style - after all, what we're here for is the theories, not TBAY.  However, I can tell you from personal experience that once you go TBAY, you never look back.

Hope that was what you were looking for,
Abigail
Who joined HPfGU in December '01 and is now wondering if that makes her an old-timer.


Laila: This si a more than sufficient explanation. Thank you. I've seen it done and was wondering... I think this particular post Pippin was involved in. I was going to ask her about it, but got distracted and never did. Thanks again for clearing that up. And if you've been around since '01 you are definitely an old timer.

 
Laila


Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
var lrec_target="_top";var lrec_URL = new Array();lrec_URL[1] = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.3098817.4420487.1456763/D=egroupweb/S=1707544108:HM/A=1430287/R=0/id=flashurl/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405";var link="javascript:LRECopenWindow(1)";var lrec_flashfile = 'http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/intl_library_of_poetry/yahoo_300x250.swf?clickTAG='+link+'';var lrec_altURL = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=245327.3098817.4420487.1456763/D=egroupweb/S=1707544108:HM/A=1430287/R=1/id=altimgurl/*http://www.poetry.com/contest/contest.asp?Suite=A33405";var lrec_altimg = "http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/intl_library_of_poetry/yahoo_300x250.gif";var lrec_width = 300;var lrec_height = 250;
________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________

Before posting to any HPFGU list, you MUST read the group's Admin Files!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/

Remember to use accurate subject headings and to snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying!

Is your message...
An announcement of merchandise, news etc.? Send it to HPFGU-Announcements.
Movie-related? Send it to HPFGU-Movie.
Referencing *only* the books? Send it to HPforGrownups.
None of the above? OT? Send it to HPFGU-OTChatter.
Unsure? Other questions? Ask your personal List Elf or the Mods -- MagicalMods at yahoogroups.com

Unsubscribing? Email HPFGU-OTChatter-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
____________________________________________________________ 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From simon.hp at virgin.net  Sun Mar 30 00:18:36 2003
From: simon.hp at virgin.net (Simon Branford)
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 00:18:36 -0000
Subject: To the Long-Time Listees
In-Reply-To: <b63asd+abd5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b65d4t+snjo@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" <annemehr at y...> 
wrote:
> As a relatively new listee (joined September '02), I can't help 
> wondering how you older listees see the main HP list these days.  I 
> did do some reading of the old year 2000 posts and recognized some 
> of your names from nowadays

Some of mine may have been amongst them :)


> Do you guys see much at all that you haven't seen 100 times 
> before?  Maybe many of you just pop in once in a while just to see 
> if anything interesting has come up?  I know that even I am now 
> seeing subjects reintroduced that I have seen hashed out once or 
> twice since *I* joined!

There are sometimes threads that come up that are completely new, but 
that is rare. I personally have someone who points out threads that 
are likely to be of interest to me. There was an interesting 
discussion going on about Quidditch recently, that made me wish I had 
more time. I would have loved to get involved, as it is a topic that 
I feel has been under discussed for ages.

Generally topics being rehashed is not a great problem to me. It is 
when exactly the same things are discussed without attempt to bring 
anything new to the discussion that I start to yawn. And of course 
mentioning the gleam in Dumbledore's eyes would get a few comments 
(wonder what the OotP equivalent will be...).

 
> I must say, I am looking forward to the OoP posts partly to see who 
> all we hear from, that we haven't for a long time!

I intend to, but it will be dependant on free time being available 
around then.


Simon, who like Catherine, is to be mainly found on FA these days and 
has no worries about having to keep others away from OotP - he will 
be having his own copy.




From urbana at charter.net  Sun Mar 30 01:43:59 2003
From: urbana at charter.net (Anne)
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 01:43:59 -0000
Subject: To the Long-Time Listees
In-Reply-To: <b63asd+abd5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b65i4v+f4d5@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" <annemehr at y...> 
wrote:
> As a relatively new listee (joined September '02), I can't help 
> wondering how you older listees see the main HP list these 
days.  .... Do you guys see much at all that you haven't seen 100 
times before?  
> Maybe many of you just pop in once in a while just to see if 
anything 
> interesting has come up?  I know that even I am now seeing subjects 
> reintroduced that I have seen hashed out once or twice since *I* 
> joined!


Anne U:
I am a bit newer even than Annemehr (I think I joined in mid-
November '02) and I'm even seeing some threads that were discussed 3-
4 months ago being rehashed again (pardon me if I'm one of the re-
hashers! :-) This doesn't totally surprise me, though, because IIRC 
the main HP list had about 4900 members when I joined it, and now it 
has (I think) over 6,200. So close to 20% of the current members of 
the list have joined in the past 4 1/2 months - meaning since HP & 
the Chamber of Secrets movie was released. As a matter of fact, *I* 
joined this list, HPFGU and HPFGU-Movie right after seeing COS. At 
that point I had read SS and COS twice, and POA once and was about 
3/4 through reading GOF (remember, I was reading it 15-20 pages at a 
time to my 6-year-old daughter...sorry to read so slowly compared to 
the rest of y'all). Anyway it was seeing COS that gave me the impetus 
to start looking for other *adults* with whom to discuss the 
Potterverse. I was aware that there were large numbers of kids and 
teens discussing HP online... but I was quite pleasantly surprised to 
find these groups, complete with thought-provoking adult discussion 
and rules that forbid people from talking in teen web speak ;-)

Well, time to read the main list... I haven't had time to check it 
since about 11:00 last night ... hope there aren't 100 messages!!

Anne U
(at least not 100 TBAY-length messages:-)





From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 29 23:08:13 2003
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 23:08:13 -0000
Subject: Pickled Toads:  Award Categories
In-Reply-To: <b63bd2+kic9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b6590t+bvl7@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Caius Marcius" 
<coriolan at w...> wrote:
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Haggridd" 
> <jkusalavagemd at y...> wrote:
> > Okay, the consensus on categries for the 2003 Pickled Toad Awards 
> > (the "Pickled Toadies") so far are as follows:

> > I envision possibly closing nominations at the end of May, and 
> voting 
> > via HPFGU-OTC poll (maybe on the main list too if the mods 
approve) 
> > through June, with actual physical awards-- wait till you see 
them--
>  
> > to be presented during Nimbus 2003 (or mailed to the winers 
unable 
> to 
> > attend).
> > 
> > 
> > Please comment either here or to me offlist.
> > 
> 
> This sounds good. I might suggest adding a category for best 
Gilbert 
> and Sullivan filk as well. 
> 
> As for scoring, I would say each voter should be able to name one 
> first choice, and one runner-up. First Choice is worth two points. 
> runner-up one point. 
> 
>    - CMC

I very much appreciate all the suggestions and welcome more.

Nominations will be made by post to HPFGU-OTC.  Nominations will be 
allowed for each category, with two choices, first and runner-up, for 
each category.

Nominations will close 31 May, 2003.  Since many fine filks will have 
been written by then, nomination lists may be amended until that 
time.  In cases of conflicts, the latest post of a listee's 
nominations will be used.

As a matter of procedure,  I don't know if it is possible to award a 
different number of points on the same poll.  So I envision two 
polls, one for winner and one for runner-up.  Each poll would be 
identical, except for the heading.  Each poll would have all the 
categories with all the songs nominated by 31 May, 2003 listed for 
each(if categories are not included, the songs nominated will be 
listed in the nearest relevent category.

As usual, voters may change their votes until the polls are closed.   
These will be blind polls.  The polls will close 30 June, 2003, at 
which time the results will be available, as well as the winners in 
each category.

Any comments, suggestions or improvemnst will be greatly appreciated.

-Haggridd
p.s. I knind of like Melody's suggestion about the filkers' 
nominating hteir own favorite songs.  The voting would be the same 
for the other categories, but this would serve all the puposes Melody 
discusses in her post.






From heidit at netbox.com  Sun Mar 30 04:30:32 2003
From: heidit at netbox.com (heiditandy)
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 04:30:32 -0000
Subject: To the Long-Time Listees
In-Reply-To: <b63asd+abd5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b65rt8+rpao@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" <annemehr at y...> 
wrote:
> As a relatively new listee (joined September '02), I can't help 
> wondering how you older listees see the main HP list these days.  
I 
> did do some reading of the old year 2000 posts and recognized some 
of 
> your names from nowadays -- Cindy C. still posts fairly often, and 
I 
> believe Queer As John was posting a bit last September or October, 
and 
> there are others.

Well, I certainly predate Cindy in the HPfGU community, and John and 
I both joined in mid-2000, IIRC, about the same time as Ebony, a 
little after Simon and well after Jen P. and Penny. In fact, when I 
first joined HpfGU, the day before the release of GoF, I was a 
little taken aback to realise that I couldn't use the 
nickname "PENNY" that I'd been using online since 1993. But it was 
hers originally, and in retrospect, I'm glad that I've always used 
my real name in posting here, weirdly enough.

A few days ago, I was popping around some older posts on the 
separate list we have where, among other things, Elves deal with our 
schedules for welcoming newbies, and I found this post that I made 
in August, 2001:


the reason I don't post as much
anymore has nothing to do with not LOVING the list to pieces and 
actually
reading most every post that is made (I *do*!) - it has to do with 
letting
others have a chance to speak. I sometimes felt (back in Jan & Feb) 
that
when I did a post and nobody replied after it that people thought - 
Oh,
oldbie - she knows...no reason to say more. 
And I like letting the newbies or newer-bies run through topics that 
they've
never tackled before - it's FUN to watch the discussions spiral 
around - the
reason I usually pop up in draco-subjects is mostly to let poor 
belagued
slytherin supporters KNOW that *they are not alone* (: turns away 
from
blinking neon sign saying SHAMELESS SELF PROMOTER!)

***********************
It's been about 20 months since I made that post, and I still feel 
much the same way. While I do still tend to post every few days if I 
think that someone's made a weird misinterpritation of canon (I 
recall one post where someone thought that a school governor was 
more akin to a guidance counseler than anything else...) when 
someone spins a "new-to-them" theory, I usually let the other 
newbies on the list run with it and wrestle it to the ground, piping 
up to point people to certain interviews or FAQ sections, but 
otherwise allowing it to regrow in its own way. 

And there have been new interpritations - I mean, the "ever so evil" 
concept as applied to people like Lupin and Minerva was rarely if 
ever discussed back in The Old Days - but you should see what we did 
to the Wand Order issue - I stake my claim that we, collectively, 
were MUCH more creative than the editors/JKR in the change. 

I still do read at least a line of almost every non-TBAY post on 
HPfGU's main list, and I think I read a little of every post on OTC. 
I go through spurts on the movie list, and I'm in a skimming state 
there right now, as I get my news by reporting it on The Leaky 
Cauldron.

And I'm also active on FictionAlley, where the message boards don't 
have the same level of demarcation between fanfic and the movies and 
books and mythology and history, so things are a little freer/looser 
there regarding the content of posts, and I enjoy being able to 
combine thoughts from my fanfics (and those I've read) with actual 
lines from the books and comments by the actors from the films to 
make a point about something (again, often on Draco topics ;) )

> 
> Do you guys see much at all that you haven't seen 100 times 
before?  

Hmmm. Hard question. Some interpritations are different - some of 
those different ones, I can't see in canon myself, at all. Sometimes 
I wonder if people just try to come up with something new for the 
sake of it being new, and don't really look to see if it hangs with 
canon completely. Or they've read the books 1-2 times and just don't 
remember things with the pinpointedness of one who's read them 10 or 
12. I've been a fan of the books for over four years - I naturally 
have a different perspective on them than someone who's just 
finished GoF yesterday. Of course, that person will have a nervous 
breakdown waiting for Book 6. Me? Ha! I waited for Book 3. I'm *used 
to this* by now.

heidi




From dkewpie at pacbell.net  Sun Mar 30 04:58:50 2003
From: dkewpie at pacbell.net (Kewpie)
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 04:58:50 -0000
Subject: Alan Rickman sings!...
In-Reply-To: <b64rbr+54ff@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b65tia+fuet@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince 
Winston)" <catlady at w...> wrote:
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Amanda Geist" 
<editor at t...> 
> wrote:
> 
> > Alan Rickman does the voice of (what else?) the villain; a shark,
> > I believe.
> 
> Why did a shark refer to "a pearl in the palm of your hand"?

The cartoon role Alan Rickman did the voice for is a cartoon villain 
fish who makes potion (aka a "potion master") to turn kids into 
fishes. The song is from the animation film called "Help I'm a fish". 
http://us.imdb.com/Title?0168856
Since the song is PART of the movie/plot, so the lyrics only make 
sense when you watch the movie. It's not like Alan record a record 
for it or something! It's just part of the soundtrack for the 
animation film. 

Joan 

Joan




From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 30 04:35:58 2003
From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd)
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 04:35:58 -0000
Subject: Latest list of Pickled Toadies categories.
Message-ID: <b65s7e+lub8@eGroups.com>

After comments by one and all, here are the latest categories for the 
2003 Pickled Toad awards.  Please have your nominations for category 
winners and runners-up posted by 31 May 2003.

1. Best Filk from a musical (best showtune), exclusive of Gershwin.

2. Best filk from a movie or television shoe soundtrack.

3. Best filk of a "Tin Pan Alley" song.

4. Best filk of a Gilbert & Sullivan song.

5. Best filk of a Beatles, song or of a later song by any of the
   individual Beatles.

6. Best filk of a Rock & Roll song written prior to 1980.

7. Best filk of a Rock & Roll song written in 1980 or later.

8. Best filk of a Disney song.

9. Best filk of a Tom Lehrer song.

10. Best filk of a Christmas Carol (etc.).

11. Best filk of a tune not known to the listener.

12. Most favorite filk as nominated by its author.

13. Best HP fandom filk- SHIP, TBAY, waiting for OoP, etc.

14. Best Dramatization of a scene from canon in a serious fashion; or
    Best serious filk.

15. Best Dramatization of a scene from canon in a humorous fashion; 
    or Funniest filk.

16. Best choice of vehicle.

17. Best Filk.

Again, pleas comment freely as well as make you nominations.  This 
list may well change according to the consensus, right up until the 
end of May.

-Haggridd




From annemehr at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 30 05:53:42 2003
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr)
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 05:53:42 -0000
Subject: To the Long-Time Listees
In-Reply-To: <b65rt8+rpao@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b660p6+62v3@eGroups.com>

Thanks to all who replied to my post -- and to those who will be 
replying!  I have been wondering about this for a while now.  Last 
night I was reading post 250 to around 300, and I did recognize many 
names (yes, Simon, yours, too!)  Actually, I dipped into the beginning 
of the OT list, too.  I did notice that the tone of things was a bit 
different than now.  I don't know how to describe it, but maybe it's 
that you hadn't gone so long without new material, so you weren't 
trying to pick apart every little nuance of the books to find 
something different to discuss.  There were no elaborate theories like 
MAGIC DISHWASHER or scholarly essays examining the character of one of 
the characters.  And no TBAY yet! Of course, I've only looked at two 
months of the oldest posts, so I'll be interested to see how things 
developed (and no, I don't intend to try to read *all* the posts!)

John, you made me laugh!  Notice that I was very careful *not* to talk 
about "old" listees!  And anyway, I'm 42 years old, you young 
whipper-snapper! (And yes, I did vote, but I might change it -- it's 
hard to decide what's best!)

Heidi says she likes to let others have their chance to speak rather 
than post much anymore (though your name is also familiar to me), and 
others of you like to check in for topics of interest.  I, however, am 
still very much at the stage of loving to post -- it feels so good to 
be writing again, actually (which I haven't done much since student 
days), and I am still hashing out ideas that I had never had anyone to 
discuss them with before.  I am also very much enjoying interacting 
with the community here, as my RL one is *very* much less diverse.


Heidi said:

 While I do still tend to post every few days if I 
> think that someone's made a weird misinterpritation of canon (I 
> recall one post where someone thought that a school governor was 
> more akin to a guidance counseler than anything else...) when 
> someone spins a "new-to-them" theory, I usually let the other 
> newbies on the list run with it and wrestle it to the ground, piping 
> up to point people to certain interviews or FAQ sections, but 
> otherwise allowing it to regrow in its own way. 
> 

Now, that's interesting!  So are you saying that whenever we newbies 
discuss a theory that's been done over and over, that the course of 
the discussion follows about the same ideas and comes to the same 
general conclusions as it did before?  So either we have JKR all 
figured out or we are *all* wrong!  :D

Annemehr






From Ripleywriter at aol.com  Sun Mar 30 06:05:01 2003
From: Ripleywriter at aol.com (Ripleywriter at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 01:05:01 EST
Subject: J.K. Rowling & Bartlett's
Message-ID: <73.2f3fbc80.2bb7e30d@aol.com>

Hi, 

  Does anybody have 'Bartlett's Familiar Quotations'? It's a book of quotes, 
which is rather obvious, isn't it? :-)  I was looking for a good dictionary 
of quotes, and I found this, and in the summary it mentions people who are 
quoted and J.K. Rowling is mentioned, but not her quote. I was wondering if 
someone who has this could tell me? I'm awful curious, as well as it will be 
an interesting addition for a project of mine on her. 

Thanks, 

Melly



From Ripleywriter at aol.com  Sun Mar 30 09:53:36 2003
From: Ripleywriter at aol.com (Ripleywriter at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 04:53:36 EST
Subject: J.K. got an OBE?
Message-ID: <25.36931c44.2bb818a0@aol.com>

Hi again, 

  I'm doing research for a project on J.K. and HP, and during my research I 
came across this bit of info from scotsman.com:

" JK Rowling has amassed a personal fortune of at least ?220 million and 
received an OBE from Prince Charles in March last year. "

Two questions from the Britishly challenged: What's an OBE? And how does ?220 
million translate to American dollars?

I'd appreciate any replies!

Melly...who's never had so much fun on a project in her life *g* 



From drednort at alphalink.com.au  Sun Mar 30 10:02:15 2003
From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately)
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 20:02:15 +1000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] J.K. got an OBE?
In-Reply-To: <25.36931c44.2bb818a0@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3E874D47.16743.2615249@localhost>

On 30 Mar 2003 at 4:53, Ripleywriter at aol.com wrote:

> Hi again, 
> 
>   I'm doing research for a project on J.K. and HP, and during my research I 
> came across this bit of info from scotsman.com:
> 
> " JK Rowling has amassed a personal fortune of at least ?220 million and 
> received an OBE from Prince Charles in March last year. "
> 
> Two questions from the Britishly challenged: What's an OBE? And how does ?220 
> million translate to American dollars?
> 
> I'd appreciate any replies!

OBE = Order of the British Empire. It's an honour granted by the Crown on the advice of 
the British Government. Basically it confers a medal to wear, and the right to follow your 
name with the initials OBE. There are various ranks of honours - the OBE is a kind of 
middle rank one (and I suspect is only the first that JKR is likely to receive over the 
course of her life).

?220 million is roughly equal to $340 million US.



Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought
Shaun Hately |webpage: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html
(ISTJ)       |email: drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200

                       "Almighty Ruler of the all;
                 Whose power extends to great and small;
                 Who guides the stars with steadfast law;
                   Whose least creation fills with awe;
                     Oh grant thy mercy and thy grace;
                     To those who venture into space."




From lupinesque at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 30 11:09:43 2003
From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z)
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 11:09:43 -0000
Subject: J.K. Rowling & Bartlett's
In-Reply-To: <73.2f3fbc80.2bb7e30d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <b66j9n+kaep@eGroups.com>

Melly wrote:

>   Does anybody have 'Bartlett's Familiar Quotations'? 

Sorry, mine is the 16th edition, published in 1992.  I'd love to hear 
what passage of JKR's got in there as well.

Amy
who felt a special thrill when she picked up a Newsweek and saw the 
opening lines of OoP in "newsworthy quotes" or whatever that section 
is called.




From pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no  Sun Mar 30 13:36:29 2003
From: pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no (pengolodh_sc)
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 13:36:29 -0000
Subject: J.K. got an OBE?
In-Reply-To: <3E874D47.16743.2615249@localhost>
Message-ID: <b66rst+ei62@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter, "Shaun Hately" wrote:


> On 30 Mar 2003 at 4:53, Ripleywriter wrote:


> 


> > Hi again, 


> > 


> >   I'm doing research for a project on J.K. and HP, and during my


> > research I came across this bit of info from scotsman.com:


> > 


> > " JK Rowling has amassed a personal fortune of at least ?220


> > million and received an OBE from Prince Charles in March last


> > year. "


> > 


> > Two questions from the Britishly challenged: What's an OBE? And


> > how does ?220 million translate to American dollars?


> > 


> > I'd appreciate any replies!


> 


> OBE = Order of the British Empire. It's an honour granted by the


> Crown on the advice of the British Government. Basically it confers


> a medal to wear, and the right to follow your name with the initials


> OBE. There are various ranks of honours - the OBE is a kind of 


> middle rank one (and I suspect is only the first that JKR is likely


> to receive over the course of her life).




The O.B.E. is the second-lowest of five ranks of the Most Excellent 
Order of the British Empire - the abbreviation can be taken to mean 
Officer of the (Most Excellent Order of the) British Empire.  The 
lowest rank is Member (M.B.E.), and above O.B.E. one finds Commander 
(C.B.E.), Knight or Dame Commander (K.B.E. or D.B.E. - and you get to 
call yourself "Sir" or "Dame"), and Knight or Dame Grand Cross (G.B.E. 
- also confers the right to the prefix "Sir" or "Dame").




If JKR was created an O.B.E. (media sometimes makes a mess and calls 
any rank of the Order of the British Empire and O.B.E.), then I'd 
think it is not impossible that she will be promoted to at least a 
C.B.E., and maybe even to D.B.E. (in which case she would be referred 
to as "Dame Joanne Rowling") - certainly if the next books remain such 
stunning successes.  




There is quite a bit of information about the Order of the British 
Empire at:


http://www.royal.gov.uk/output/Page490.asp and


http://www.itsanhonour.gov.au/about/imperial.html (also about other 
British Honours)


I also have a lengthy summary with an order of precedence for British 
orders posted at:


http://www.livejournal.com/users/pengolodh_sc/24548.html




Best regards


Christian Stub?





From HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com  Sun Mar 30 16:02:07 2003
From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com (HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 30 Mar 2003 16:02:07 -0000
Subject: Reminder - Weekly Chat 
Message-ID: <1049040127.27.33510.m11@yahoogroups.com>


We would like to remind you of this upcoming event.

Weekly Chat 

Date: Sunday, March 30, 2003 
Time: 11:00AM - 7:00PM CST (GMT-06:00) 

Hi everyone! Don't forget, chat happens today, 11 am Pacific, 2
pm Eastern, 7 pm UK time. Go into any Yahoo chat room and type
/join HP:1 
For further info, see the Humongous BigFile, section 3.3.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/hbfile.html#33

Hope to see you there! 

 





From pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no  Sun Mar 30 16:50:07 2003
From: pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no (pengolodh_sc)
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 16:50:07 -0000
Subject: J.K. got an OBE?
In-Reply-To: <b66rst+ei62@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b6777v+2up4@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter, "pengolodh_sc" wrote:
[snip lots of order-stuff]

I forgot that I shouldn't post to Yahoo!Groups from Opera - sorry 
about that.  I also thought I'd point out that the LJ-post I linked 
to mainly looks at things in a 1920-perspective - so it includes the 
Order of St Patrick, which went into effective abeyance in 1922, but 
omits the George Cross (ranking second only to the Victoria Cross) 
and George Medal, which were created in 1940.

Best regards
Christian Stub?




From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Mar 30 18:45:30 2003
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 18:45:30 -0000
Subject: Reminder - Weekly Chat
In-Reply-To: <1049040127.27.33510.m11@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <b67e0a+8e8p@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, 
HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com wrote:

> Weekly Chat 
> 
> Time: 11:00AM - 7:00PM CST (GMT-06:00) 
> 
> 11 am Pacific, 2 pm Eastern, 7 pm UK time. 

Summer Time started today in Europe (and UK?) and will start next 
week in USA IIRC, and these times need to be sorted out because the 
relationship of local time to GMT changes. 

Once upon a time, chat started at noon Pacific, 8 pm GMT, and then 
Summer Time happened so noon Pacific was 7 pm GMT and then Summer 
Time ended so 7 pm GMT was 11 am Pacific....




From bboy_mn at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 30 22:31:02 2003
From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 22:31:02 -0000
Subject: J.K. Rowling & Bartlett's
In-Reply-To: <73.2f3fbc80.2bb7e30d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <b67r76+72ko@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Ripleywriter at a... wrote:
> Hi, 
> 
>   Does anybody have 'Bartlett's Familiar Quotations'? ... it mentions
> people who are quoted and J.K. Rowling is mentioned, ... 
> 
> Thanks, 
> 
> Melly

bboy_mn:

Barlett's On-Line-

http://www.bartleby.com/100/

http://education.yahoo.com/reference/bartlett/


Other sources of Famous Quotes-

Although, I didn't find any reference to JK Rowling in any of these.

bboy_mn
 
http://directory.google.com/Top/Reference/Quotations/




From jeopardy18 at attbi.com  Sun Mar 30 23:01:41 2003
From: jeopardy18 at attbi.com (seanmulligan2000)
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 23:01:41 -0000
Subject: Fanfic Recommendations
Message-ID: <b67t0l+7rhn@eGroups.com>

I think the members of this group should try reading the Slytherin 
Rising Series by J.L. Matthews.  It's a Harry Potter AU saga that 
tries to show Slytherin house in a new light.  It will have 8 novel 
leghnth parts in all.  Chapter 6 of Part 4 has just been posted.  You 
can find the Slytherin Rising Series on Fanfiction.net, the Schoogle 
Section of Fiction Alley and on the Slytherin Rising Discussion list




From artsylynda at aol.com  Mon Mar 31 01:15:09 2003
From: artsylynda at aol.com (artsylynda at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 20:15:09 EST
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] "rather wild RPG"
Message-ID: <1aa.12440ece.2bb8f09d@aol.com>

Okay, I'm new to the list and have been trying to follow along for a few days 
-- what's "RPG" (I even wondered if Rupert Grint has a "P" middle name, while 
trying to figure it out, but that didn't work in context).  Is there a list 
of the abbreviations/acronyms used on the list?  And a translation of "RPG" 
would certainly be appreciated (I was pleased to see I knew what OBE meant, 
though!)

Lynda 
* * *
"Don't let  the Muggles get you down." Ron Weasley PoA


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no  Mon Mar 31 01:28:55 2003
From: pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no (pengolodh_sc)
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 01:28:55 -0000
Subject: "rather wild RPG"
In-Reply-To: <1aa.12440ece.2bb8f09d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <b685kn+h34c@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter, artsylynda wrote:
> Is there a list of the abbreviations/acronyms used on the list?

There is a large list of abbreviations at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%
20Files/hbfile.html#4
(you will need to copy and paste that URL to restore it - the last 
character at the first line of the URL should be a % (percentage-
character).)

> And a translation of "RPG" would certainly be appreciated (I was
> pleased to see I knew what OBE meant, though!)
> 
> Lynda 

RPG means role-playing game.

Best regards
Christian Stub?




From dradamsapple at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 31 02:11:03 2003
From: dradamsapple at yahoo.com (dradamsapple)
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 02:11:03 -0000
Subject: To the Long-Time Listees
In-Reply-To: <b65d4t+snjo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b6883n+lpgi@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Simon Branford" 
<simon.hp at v...> wrote:
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" <annemehr at y...> 
> wrote:
> > As a relatively new listee (joined September '02), I can't help 
> > wondering how you older listees see the main HP list these days.  
I 

> > Do you guys see much at all that you haven't seen 100 times 
> > before? 


> Generally topics being rehashed is not a great problem to me. It is 
> when exactly the same things are discussed without attempt to bring 
> anything new to the discussion that I start to yawn. And of course 
> mentioning the gleam in Dumbledore's eyes would get a few comments 
> (wonder what the OotP equivalent will be...).
> 
>  

Ok, Simon, 

I missed something somewhere.

You and John both mention the "gleam in Dubledore's eyes" . . .

What, exactly, does this mean?  (I got the Arabella Figg connection, 
after listening to GoF for the second time), but what did I miss with 
Dumbledore?


Anna . . .(who has been busy painting her house and perhaps the fumes 
are getting to her) . . .




From susannahlm at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 31 02:27:44 2003
From: susannahlm at yahoo.com (derannimer)
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 02:27:44 -0000
Subject: The Gleam! Oh No!
Message-ID: <b68930+5q7u@eGroups.com>

Anna wanted to know what The Gleam was: 

>Ok, Simon, 

>I missed something somewhere.

>You and John both mention the "gleam in Dubledore's eyes" . . .

>What, exactly, does this mean? (I got the Arabella Figg connection, 
>after listening to GoF for the second time), but what did I miss 
>with Dumbledore?

You know, at the end of GOF, when Harry is telling Dumbledore and 
Sirius about what happened to him in the Graveyard? Harry tells 
Dumbledore that now Voldemort can touch him without flinching. Then 
it says: 

"For a fleeting instant, Harry thought he saw a gleam of something 
like triumph in Dumbledore's eyes. But next second, Harry was sure he 
had imagined it, for when Dumbledore had returned to his seat behind 
the desk, he looked as old and weary as Harry had ever seen him." 

That's The Gleam. It's sort of a companion piece to Snape's Sudden 
Movement. Both have inspired many theories, some of them deranged.




Derannimer (who enjoys a deranged theory as much as the next theorist)





From nate_andersen at hotmail.com  Mon Mar 31 02:39:34 2003
From: nate_andersen at hotmail.com (Nathan Andersen)
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 19:39:34 -0700
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] The Gleam! Oh No!
Message-ID: <BAY2-F98HNkjgJKVApw0001eb7e@hotmail.com>







>Anna wanted to know what The Gleam was:
>
>
>You know, at the end of GOF, when Harry is telling Dumbledore and
>Sirius about what happened to him in the Graveyard? Harry tells
>Dumbledore that now Voldemort can touch him without flinching. Then
>it says:
>
>"For a fleeting instant, Harry thought he saw a gleam of something
>like triumph in Dumbledore's eyes. But next second, Harry was sure he
>had imagined it, for when Dumbledore had returned to his seat behind
>the desk, he looked as old and weary as Harry had ever seen him."
>
>That's The Gleam. It's sort of a companion piece to Snape's Sudden
>Movement. Both have inspired many theories, some of them deranged.
>
Ok I got the whole gleam thing and have heard about the subject quite 
extensivly but whats this Snape's Suddne Movement thing I've never heard of 
it before. Someone help me.

nate

_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*  
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus




From catlady at wicca.net  Mon Mar 31 02:52:27 2003
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 02:52:27 -0000
Subject: The Gleam! Oh No!
In-Reply-To: <b68930+5q7u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b68ahb+vefa@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "derannimer" <susannahlm at y...> 
wrote:

> That's The Gleam. It's sort of a companion piece to Snape's Sudden 
> Movement. Both have inspired many theories, some of them deranged.
> 

The problem is NOT that some of the theories are deranged. The 
problem is that when GoF was released, some 2000 newbies joined the 
list over the next four weeks, and it seemed like HALF of them 
(1000 posts) began by posting: "Hi, I just joined, I'm so-and-so. I 
was wondering, did anyone notice that gleam in Dumbledore's eye 
blablabla, does anyone have ay idea what it could mean? I don't want 
to think it means that Dumbledore is evil!" It was worse than the 
main list and then the movie list when PS movie came out and 10,000 
newbies joined but only 5% of them began by posting "I saw the movie 
and SEAN BIGGERSTAFF IS **HOT**".  




From melclaros at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 31 03:11:23 2003
From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros)
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 03:11:23 -0000
Subject: Snape's Sudden Movement (was The Gleam! Oh No!)
In-Reply-To: <BAY2-F98HNkjgJKVApw0001eb7e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <b68bkr+dqc7@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Nathan Andersen" 
<nate_andersen at h...> wrote:
> Ok I got the whole gleam thing and have heard about the subject 
quite 
> extensivly but whats this Snape's Suddne Movement thing I've never 
heard of 
> it before. Someone help me.


Oh my favorite! When Moody is exposed as Crouch and everyone is 
gathered round Harry while he "spills the beans" on the Death Eaters 
in the Graveyard. He mentions Lucius Malfoy and Snape makes a "sudden 
movement". This movement has been interpreted all sorts of ways. Over 
and over again. And will be again. AND AGAIN. Along with the gleam. 
EVEN AFTER we find out why he Really did it. Someone will say, "I bet 
it was ALSO because he had an abusive father."

Sorry, couldn't resist.




From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk  Mon Mar 31 03:12:49 2003
From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte)
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 04:12:49 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] The Gleam! Oh No!
References: <BAY2-F98HNkjgJKVApw0001eb7e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3E87B231.000001.16543@monica>

 

Ok I got the whole gleam thing and have heard about the subject quite 
extensivly but whats this Snape's Suddne Movement thing I've never heard of 
it before. Someone help me.
 
nate
 
I don't have GOF to hand so I can't give you a direct quote but after the
graveyard scene when Harry's trying to convince Fudge of his story he lists
the DEs and when he gets to Lucius Malfoy Snape makes a never to be
explained (so far) sudden movement.

K



From susannahlm at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 31 03:30:05 2003
From: susannahlm at yahoo.com (derannimer)
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 03:30:05 -0000
Subject: The Gleam! Oh No!
Message-ID: <b68cnt+qsbg@eGroups.com>

Catlady wrote: 

>The problem is NOT that some of the theories are deranged. 

Oh, no. Hey, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to suggest that it was. As I 
said, I *enjoy* deranged theories. I'm a TBAYer, after all. I was 
just. . . oh, I don't know. Trying to convey a sense of the stir and 
confusion--and just sheer-number-of-things-hung-on--caused by these 
few lines. (Largely a general sense that Dumbledore really might be 
Ever So Evil!)

>The problem is that when GoF was released, some 2000 newbies joined 
>the list over the next four weeks, and it seemed like HALF of them 
>(1000 posts) began by posting: "Hi, I just joined, I'm so-and-so. I 
>was wondering, did anyone notice that gleam in Dumbledore's eye 
>blablabla, does anyone have ay idea what it could mean? I don't want 
>to think it means that Dumbledore is evil!" It was worse than the 
>main list and then the movie list when PS movie came out and 10,000 
>newbies joined but only 5% of them began by posting "I saw the movie 
>and SEAN BIGGERSTAFF IS **HOT**". 


Ah. I missed all of that, for which I am none too sorry. 



Derannimer (who has never thought that Sean Biggerstaff is 
particularly hot. ::shrugs::)




From annemehr at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 31 03:37:01 2003
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr)
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 03:37:01 -0000
Subject: The Gleam! Oh No!
In-Reply-To: <b68ahb+vefa@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b68d4t+8uok@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince 
Winston)" <catlady at w...> wrote:
<snip>
> The problem is NOT that some of the theories are deranged. The 
> problem is that when GoF was released, some 2000 newbies joined the 
> list over the next four weeks, and it seemed like HALF of them 
> (1000 posts) began by posting: "Hi, I just joined, I'm so-and-so. I 
> was wondering, did anyone notice that gleam ..."

Annemehr:
And that's exactly what's going to happen right after OoP is released, 
especially if the list is kept open -- 2000 newbies *and* many of the 
rest of us will all post basically the same things.  That's why I 
voted to shut down the list for 36 hours, but, I don't know, it just 
doesn't seem right to me somehow.  I might need to change my vote.  
Oh, well, I hope people will be specific in their subject lines, then 
we can say, "Oh, no, not that again" and skip over it (and that will 
be the one post with the truly original insight -- <sigh>)!






From Ripleywriter at aol.com  Mon Mar 31 04:11:40 2003
From: Ripleywriter at aol.com (Ripleywriter at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 23:11:40 EST
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Snape's Sudden Movement (was The Gleam! Oh No!)
Message-ID: <181.18c3a3b7.2bb919fc@aol.com>


I'm still confused about this sudden movement deal, sorry. :-) Where exactly 
is it in the book? 

<<When Moody is exposed as Crouch and everyone is 
gathered round Harry while he "spills the beans" on the Death Eaters 
in the Graveyard. >>

So, in other words, Snape's 'sudden movement' is in Moody's office with 
Crouch Jr. on the floor? Or... <feels stupid> Could somebody transcribe it 
for me please, I'm not at home with my lovely books... :-( 

<<He mentions Lucius Malfoy and Snape makes a "sudden 
movement".  This movement has been interpreted all sorts of ways. Over 
and over again. And will be again. AND AGAIN. Along with the gleam. 
EVEN AFTER we find out why he Really did it. >>

Pardon the naiveness that is me, but...what? Really did what? I've read GoF 
many times but I'm afraid I get too enthralled to retain much knowledge of 
small details. ;-) 

Melly




From dradamsapple at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 31 04:28:09 2003
From: dradamsapple at yahoo.com (dradamsapple)
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 04:28:09 -0000
Subject: The Gleam! Oh No!
In-Reply-To: <b68ahb+vefa@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b68g4p+dg8h@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince 
Winston)" <catlady at w...> wrote:
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "derannimer" 
<susannahlm at y...> 
> wrote:
> 
> > That's The Gleam. It's sort of a companion piece to Snape's 
Sudden 
> > Movement. Both have inspired many theories,  >snip<
> > > 

> I 
> was wondering, did anyone notice that gleam in Dumbledore's eye 
> blablabla, does anyone have ay idea what it could mean? I don't 
want 
> to think it means that Dumbledore is evil!" 


Dumbledore, EVIL????

Oh, my.  I'm  speechless.

This makes me want to go back and re-read all the books again, 
looking for clues.  I must admit, I'm pretty bad at reading between 
the lines (that's why I love the HPFG groups!)  I could never be 
as 'creative' in my thinking as some of you are.

Hmmm, and Snape, I can't even start to try to figure him out!

Thanks for all your ideas (I would love to hear more!)

Anna,  . . .(who is going to start taking notes when re-reading HP)8)




From catlady at wicca.net  Mon Mar 31 04:49:23 2003
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 04:49:23 -0000
Subject: Snape's Sudden Movement (was The Gleam! Oh No!)
In-Reply-To: <181.18c3a3b7.2bb919fc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <b68hcj+e3ad@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Ripleywriter at a... wrote:
> 
> I'm still confused about this sudden movement deal, sorry. :-) 
> Where exactly is it in the book? 

It's quite late in Chapter 36 "The Parting of the Ways". After he 
has told Dumbledore and Sirius his story and fallen asleep, he is 
awakened by the sound of Fudge and McGonagall shouting at each other 
because Fudge's Dementor has just Kissed Barty Jr. Dumbledore tries 
to tell Fudge that Voldemort has returned and Fudge refuses to believe 
him.

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Fudge had taken half a step back from Dumbledore, but he looked no 
less stubborn. "You'll forgive me, Dumbledore, but I've [never] heard 
of a curse scar acting as an alarm bell before ..."

"Look, I saw Voldemort come back!" Harry shouted. He tried to get out 
of bed again, but Mrs Weasley forced him back. "I saw the Death 
Eaters! I can give you their names! Lucius Malfoy ?"

Snape made a **sudden movement**, but as Harry looked at him, Snape's 
eyes flew back to Fudge.

"Malfoy was cleared!" said Fudge, visibly affronted. "A very old 
family ? donations to excellent causes ?"

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

That's The Sudden Movement.

There are many theories about what it means.

One popular theory is that Snape, hearing Harry start to name names, 
is afraid that Harry is going to name *him* as having been there 
(because he was).

For some reasson, the theory which I hold is not equally popular: 
that Lucius had fooled Severus into believing that old it-was-
Imperius tale, and Severus is now shocked to learn that Lucius really 
was one of the bad guys.




From nobodysrib at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 31 08:35:34 2003
From: nobodysrib at yahoo.com (nobodysrib)
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 08:35:34 -0000
Subject: Pickled Toad Awards - fugitive stud muffin
In-Reply-To: <b5rqbd+ormk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b68ukm+1gh7@eGroups.com>

Amy Z mentioned: 

> Line most hazardous to read while drinking anything carbonated:
> 
> "I would not be just a nothin', a fugitive stud muffin"
> 
> in Pippin's "If You'd Just Let Me Explain"

I'm having so much reading through old filks - and this fabulous line 
of Pippin's has gotten stuck in my head.  Keeps popping up, out of 
nowhere, and making me laugh out loud.  When I'm driving, when I'm in 
the grocery store, when I'm in meetings at work.  (Rather hazardous, 
actually.)

- Nobody's Rib (who's thankful for Pippin's Evil!Lupin beliefs in 
addition to the clever witticisms)




From macloudt at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Mar 31 17:40:51 2003
From: macloudt at yahoo.co.uk (Mary Ann)
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 17:40:51 -0000
Subject: Birthday Greetings!
Message-ID: <b69uj3+927c@eGroups.com>

:::::Dizzy Elf dances in, strewing streamers and balloons 
everywhere:::::

Oh, wow, we have a *triple* birthday today!  Isn't that just groovy!?

...no, I don't get out much.  Why do you ask?

Anyway, today's greetings go out to Amanda, Lea, and eledhwen_0.  
Greetings can be sent to the List, or Amanda can be reached at 
returnofsharkbait at canada.com

Have a lovely birthday, all, and may you be blessed with HP goodies!

Mary Ann
(who needs a few more hobbies)




From urbana at charter.net  Mon Mar 31 18:51:09 2003
From: urbana at charter.net (Anne)
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 18:51:09 -0000
Subject: Here we go again <sigh> ... Another HP-banning attempt
Message-ID: <b6a2mt+eal1@eGroups.com>

Some churches want schools to ban "Harry Potter"
By Natalie Missakian, New Haven Register Staff March 31, 2003 

NEW HAVEN, CT ? Saying "Harry Potter" makes witchcraft and
wizardry 
alluring to kids, members of several city churches want the popular 
children's series banned from school libraries and reading lists.
 
Antonio Rivera, who describes himself as a representative of several 
churches in the Fair Haven community, has asked the Board of 
Education to remove Potter books from city classrooms.

He did not specify which churches, but described them as "Reformed 
Protestant."

Written by Scottish author J.K. Rowling, the Potter series chronicles 
the exploits of a young wizard who attends a school of wizardry and 
uses spells and incantations to ward off evil. 

more at:
<http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?
newsid=7550494&BRD=1281&PAG=461&dept_id=7573&rfi=6>

Anne U - who notes that the writer, Natalie Missakian can be reached 
at nmissakian at nhregister.com, or 203-789-5726. 
 





From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk  Mon Mar 31 19:05:39 2003
From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte)
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 20:05:39 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Here we go again <sigh> ... Another HP-banning attempt
References: <b6a2mt+eal1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3E889183.000001.88539@monica>

 
Anne U wrote -
Some churches want schools to ban "Harry Potter"
By Natalie Missakian, New Haven Register Staff March 31, 2003 
 
NEW HAVEN, CT ? Saying "Harry Potter" makes witchcraft and
wizardry 
alluring to kids, members of several city churches want the popular 
children's series banned from school libraries and reading lists.
  
 
Me -

You know it's just occured to me that if the kids buy in to the whole
Potterverse they should be *less* inclined to get involved in the occult -
after all in the Potterverse you magic isn't something you learn, it's
something you are. Yiou can learn how to use it but you're either born a
witch/wizard or you aren't ....

These people annoy me because I've had my own run ins with the 'Christian
Union' at my uni (I was in the role playing society - apparently we can
summon demons, I must have missed that meeting). Of course we didn't help -
they picketed our stall so we decorated it with black candles, pentagrams
and played music from films like the Exorcist .....

K



From jrpessin at mail.millikin.edu  Mon Mar 31 21:47:49 2003
From: jrpessin at mail.millikin.edu (Jonathan Pessin)
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 15:47:49 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Digest Number 982
Message-ID: <se88632c.035@mail.millikin.edu>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince 
Winston)" <catlady at w...> wrote:
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "derannimer" 
<susannahlm at y...> 
> wrote:
> 
> > That's The Gleam. It's sort of a companion piece to Snape's 
Sudden 
> > Movement. Both have inspired many theories,  >snip<
> > > 

> I 
> was wondering, did anyone notice that gleam in Dumbledore's eye 
> blablabla, does anyone have ay idea what it could mean? I don't 
want 
> to think it means that Dumbledore is evil!" 


Dumbledore, EVIL????

Oh, my.  I'm  speechless.

This makes me want to go back and re-read all the books again, 
looking for clues.  I must admit, I'm pretty bad at reading between 
the lines (that's why I love the HPFG groups!)  I could never be 
as 'creative' in my thinking as some of you are.

Hmmm, and Snape, I can't even start to try to figure him out!

Thanks for all your ideas (I would love to hear more!)

Anna,  . . .(who is going to start taking notes when re-reading HP)8)"

if you like THAT one, try on REDHEAD ALWAYS for size: it's a REALLY out-there Dumbledore theory that came out on the main list a couple of weeks ago.  I don't remember the thread numbers (anybody else?), but I found the idea so interesting I'm writing a fanfic about it.

[shameless plug] The first chapter's at http://www.thedarkarts.org/authorLinks/Hobbit_Guy/Tempus_Fugit/, if you want to take a look. [/shameless plug]

Hobbit_guy, who knows he's totally self-promoting, but...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"You haven't been getting into the Gaffer's home brew again, have you?"
"No... Well, yes, but that's beside the point."
-Frodo and Bilbo Baggins, Fellowship of the Rings Extended Edition DVD




From heidit at netbox.com  Mon Mar 31 23:01:56 2003
From: heidit at netbox.com (heiditandy)
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 23:01:56 -0000
Subject: Update about Nimbus - 2003 Luncheon
Message-ID: <b6ahd4+h3qv@eGroups.com>

Just a reminder - as of April 2, 2003, the cost for the Judith Krug 
Keynote Luncheon on Friday will go up from $19.75 to $29.75. If 
you're already registered for Nimbus - 2003, you can now go and 
update your own registration and add in things like the luncheons 
and the Night Bus from the airport to the hotel, or put yourself on 
the Wait List for the Taste of the UK Founder's Feast at EPCOT. 

So if you know that you want to attend the Krug luncheon, we really 
recommend that you register now. 

And don't forget to pick up your website buttons, avatars and icons 
here: http://www.hp2003.org/nimbushelpsplinks.html - show your 
support for Nimbus - 2003

Heidi for Team Nimbus - 2003




From pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no  Mon Mar 31 23:53:56 2003
From: pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no (pengolodh_sc)
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 23:53:56 -0000
Subject: Here we go again <sigh> ... Another HP-banning attempt
In-Reply-To: <3E889183.000001.88539@monica>
Message-ID: <b6akek+qlqr@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter, "Kathryn Cawte" wrote:
[snip]
> 
> These people annoy me because I've had my own run ins with the
> 'Christian Union' at my uni (I was in the role playing society -
> apparently we can summon demons, I must have missed that meeting).
> Of course we didn't help - they picketed our stall so we decorated
> it with black candles, pentagrams and played music from films like
> the Exorcist .....
> 
> K

This reminds me of something I was told of some time ago:

A roleplaying-society at some university (in australia, I believe) 
was regularly picketed by various religious groups on campus, naming 
them satan-worshippers, and so on.  Finally they decided to 
retaliate, and had custom t-shirts made - on the front was 
written "Campus Crusade for Cthulhu", and on the back "Our god can 
eat your god for breakfast".

For some reason, I think I want one of those t-shirts....

Best regards
Christian Stub?