From the main list -- "(CAUTION) Re: Stereotyping"

[Kelley]

Hi, everyone!  I'm posting this for Mirror, who is buried under a 
pile of papers to be graded. ;-)  She's asked me to post it here on 
her behalf:

Iggy <coyoteschild at p...> wrote:
Iggy here:
> CAUTION    CAUTION    CAUTION
I am adding in this statement because I want to let people know in
advance that some of the statements I make in this letter, and some 
of the words I use may be offensive to the more sensitive reader. 
>>>  

Mirror here:
While it's important to be sensitive impossible to dialogue if 
people do not tell the truth about how they feel.  I answered your 
post because I agree with you on some things and rather violently 
disagree on others.  But I am glad you brought the subjects up.

Iggy: 
>I grew up in central California, in Santa Cruz... which is quite
close to San Francisco and Berkeley.  Santa Cruz is often even more 
rabid about "politically correct advocacy" than almost any other 
place I have been.  I also spent a great deal of my childhood on the 
UCSC university campus... and universities, as most of us know, 
are "hotbeds of social change"... I also spent a good amount of time 
in the '90's visiting friends on that same campus. >>>
      
Mirror: 
I grew up in New York City and went to Yale. Bet there's not
much difference.  What I notice about these 'hotbeds of social change'
is that there is no more dialogue than in the 'conservative' places
they are always railing about.  There is just a different kind of
orthodoxy, just as rigidly enforced-- or maybe more rigidly.
    
Iggy:
> My reason for stating all of this is to say that I definitely know
of where I speak from when I say that there's too many people out 
there that are so fanatical about making sure a certain gender, race, 
sexual orientation, etc, gets treated equally and with full rights 
and objectivity, that they not only tend to overlook other issues 
while blindly pursuing their own agendas, but they also tend to 
perpetuate aspects of the political views that they supposedly fight 
against. >>>  

Mirror here: 
In my opinion, this is very correct. I have noticed the same thing.

Iggy:
> (One of my more controversial questions to pit-bull feminists who 
scream for total equality >>>

Mirror: 
I had to stop calling myself a feminist about 15 years ago. I grew up 
in the 60's and no, things were not fair to women then and I 
sincerely believe that we have a right to equal pay for the same work 
(doesn't happen in the US) equality in education, the right to be 
encouraged to play sports (didn't happen when I was a girl) and so 
forth.  However, feminism has now gone way beyond these kinds of
demands and is defined very narrowly by the very far out liberal left
who have a lot of beliefs that I morally can't agree with at all.
   
Iggy says:
> Men(especially white Christian men) are seen as having most of the 
power.  They also seem to overlook the fact that only the upper class 
people seem to have any real advantages.  In fact, white middle class 
men often find it harder to get into college because there are many 
more programs (like affirmative action) that are seen as leveling the 
playing field for everyone but actually, to my experiences at least, 
tend to skew things away from white lower/middle class males having 
much ability to get into school without great grades and tons of
scholarships. >>>      

Mirror:
I think the middle class generally gets squeezed in the US.  We are
black middle-class and get cut no breaks so far as these things,
believe me.  We just put a son into college so I know what I am
talking about.  We did not get considered for any scholarships.  The
best schools demand crazy grades/SATs/athletics etc for everyone now.
  
My son had 1400 SATs, great grade point average, black belt in karate,
award winning paintings, bilingual in Spanish, etc. etc. and still
could not make above the second tier in colleges. Many (black) middle
class friends in the same position.  People always make a big deal 
out of affirmative action for blacks and it does not really work quite
like people seem to think it does. There is plenty of affirmative
action in this country that people do not scream about-- for 
athletes, for instance, who can get even into top tier schools with 
very poor grades and get kept there (I am a college prof, I know what 
I am talking about). 

And wealthy, upper class people still get the best deal with 
everything. I think what may be hitting you, Iggy, is that because 
the upper class remains white, anglo-saxon (I don't say Protestant, 
because I think few of them are really Christian in the sense I would 
use the word) and the males of this class DO still run everything 
that matters in the US (take a look at the photos of the heads of 
major corporatioins, at Congress and at everything else that matters) 
people may tend to assume that all white males belong to this class 
and have power.  Which of course leaves white males who do not belong
(and there are plenty of them) in a bind.

That said, I have to state that there are things that people of 
color do put up with that you, Iggy, are not subject to.  Re, what 
you have written below about black complaining about slavery-- there 
are few loud blacks such as Al Sharpton who have made a career on 
doing this, however, most black people are not interested in this 
subject, which is, as you have said, 150 years in the past.  Most 
blacks are much more concerned about difficulties here in the 
present, of which there are many, even once you get to be middle 
class.  

Leaving aside the subject of the N word (which I personally do not 
use and not like to have used on me, though it has happened) I can 
tell you that prejudice is real and alive in the US and much more of 
a concern to me and most other people than past history. Also, though 
slavery finished in 1865, segregation and even such things as 
lynching continued into the 1960's, which is not so long ago.  I live 
in Maryland where plenty of people in their 40's can tell you about 
not being able to use banks, use libraries etc. in their childhoods 
because of being black. 

Iggy:    
> Can you imagine the House Elves being freed from service en-masse
and, three centuries later, still declaring that the wizarding world 
owed them a massive debt for what happened before any of the living 
wizards were ever born? >>>

Mirror: See above.  

Iggy:    
> How about Hermione and the other "muggle-born" and "half-blood"
wizards and witches calling each other "mudblood" in a friendly 
manner, but jumping all over any "pure-blood" who dares even think of 
using the word?  Would this be fair? >>>
      
Mirror:
Here, although I am glad you feel free to voice your opinion, I have
to say that I don't think you know exactly what you are talking 
about.  

TV shows show black people doing this all this time (using the N 
word) and of course the airwaves are now flooded with gangsta rappers 
and such people using this (and other really bad language) promoting 
drugs and violence, but this is very far from what most black people 
behave like.  When you say this, I have to wonder if you know many 
blacks personally, or have just seen the media.  This is like if I 
said, for instance, that all white males who have Southern accents 
married their first cousins, and drank beer and drove around in 
pickup trucks shooting at people.  People in many parts of the US 
believe this.  I personally, however, know many Southern white lower-
class or middle class white males who are perfect gentlemen to 
everyone (mostly in my church). Please let's don't stereotype 
anybody, even using house-elves as a disguise for what we are talking 
about.

Iggy writes:
>Hermione is questing for House Elf rights, but she tends to not
think about many factors.  Do they want to be freed of their 
service?  Or do they see it as their accepted and honored purpose in 
life?  Does she respect their wishes when they seem offended at the 
idea of pay and freedom?  If she succeeds in getting all the House 
Elves feed, what then?  To what I can see, she wants them freed from 
service, but hasn't even considered what they're supposed to do with 
their lives later.  Has she thought about tacking on a House Elf 
Placement Program onto her cause, in an effort to find gainful and
respected employment for freed House Elves? >>>


Mirror writes:
Iggy, if people had thought like what you are saying here, we would
still be living in Gone With the Wind. Sometimes people need to make
some noise about really unjust systems.  I think this is JK Rowling's
thought and why she included this whole house-elf motif.

Iggy:   
> I think she could do a lot more good for House Elves if she thought
things through a lot better.  For one thing, she can attempt to 
improve how the House Elves are treated, without necessarily needing 
to have them freed or given pay. >>>
      

Mirror:
!!!!!!!!
I think I will end my answer to you here. How can you improve how
someone is treated that is working for someone else forever, for no
money, without freeing them or giving them pay?  I don't know for 
sure that Rowling actually means house-elves to stand for African 
slaves (there are plenty of other oppressed groups she could be 
talking about; there is slavery still existing in the world today and 
I know JKR worked for a group for a long time that is trying to 
abolish it) but think about if it were YOU that was the house-elf.  

respectfully,
Mirror, who doesn't think she is going to talk any further about 
this subject-- too far OT for me, to be truthful.