[HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Hogwarts in the Context of the British Public School

[Shaun Hately]

On 18 Jul 2004 at 5:06, Catlady (Rita Prince Winston) wrote:

> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Shaun Hately" <drednort at a...>
> wrote:
> 
> > No, it's a post sent about a week ago "Hogwarts School of 
> > Witchcraft and Wizardry in the Context of the British Public 
> > Schools."
> 
> I finally reached that post (105610 of 106734) and *Good* Catlady
> wrote comments!
> 
> Shaun, it seems (from the style of in-line 'footnotes') that you
> intended the stuffy academic writing style, therefore presumably aimed
> at a stuffy academic journal. I don't understand why an essay intended
> to "increase people's enjoyment and understanding of the series" isn't
> written in a more enjoyable style with the intention of being
> published in some general-interest magazine or even newspaper where
> readers who aren't university professors will read it. I know you have
> a writing style that is very enjoyable to read, because you use it for
> your normal posts.

Well, frankly, because I kind of assume that the people who read 
HPFGU are intelligent enough to handle footnoting. Frankly, except 
for the presence of footnoting, I don't think writing style is any 
different in this post than in any other planned post I've ever 
made.

Take out the footnotes, it's pretty much exactly the same.

The purpose of including the footnotes comes right down to the 
nature of the post. I'm trying to compare Hogwarts to an historical 
record, as given in a variety of other books. I'm basing my post on 
evidence. Citing the sources means people can see that this is not 
just an opinion piece. I've written my own opinions down on these 
issues on occasions, there's nothing wrong with doing that - but 
this is intended to be not just my opinions, but also showing where 
those opinions come from.

The main thing that inspired the post if anything were the recent 
discussion on Spape's teaching style. I gave my views based on my 
experiences during that thread, and it was clear that other people 
were doing precisely the same - and it became very clear that a 
number of fans were, in my opinion, falling into the trap of 
comparing Hogwarts to a modern school founded on modern educational 
beliefs - and in some cases, specifically American modern 
educational beliefs. People were not considering that Hogwarts is 
not part of modern culture - and certainly isn't a part of modern 
American culture. To me, one of the most attractive things about 
the Harry Potter books is they draw on a specific cultural 
heritage. So I was seeking to draw out the points of that cultural 
heritage.

> << But such meta-analysis is somehow unsatisfying to many 
readers.>>
> 
> Isn't meta-analysis, in this context, a term invented on HPfGU?

It's a term that we were using in literature studies when I was at 
school in 1990/1991. Presumably it's older than that because I 
doubt it was invented in our classroom, but that's when I first 
encountered it.
 
> << People want literature to appear real in the sense that it should
> be internally consistent. We are shown a school of magic with obvious
> influences from our own Muggle world. Some of us naturally wish to
> find explanations for those influences. >>
> 
> No, *fans* want literature to appear real ... to find explanations for
> [everything].

'Fans' are a type of people - at least, I hope they are.
 
> << As most public schools were single sex establishments, there was no
> need for titles that included a gender distinction, nor was there
> much pressure to have two such offices. >>
> 
> Didn't some listie say that she had been Deputy Head Girl at her
> all-girls school?

Possibly - but if you read one of the following sentences, you'll 
see: "The terms Head Boy and Head Girl however are not uncommon at 
coeducational establishments, and are not unheard of in single sex 
schools."

The term is not unheard of in single sex schools - but it's less 
common.

> 
> << Bill Weasley holds a responsible position as a curse breaker at
> Gringotts (Rowling, 1999, p.12) and is successful enough that he can
> apparently ignore the conventions of normal wizarding dress >>
> 
> :) But I suspect that Bill's style is not as uncommon among employed
> young wizards as Molly wants us to think.

Possibly not - that's why I said 'apparently' (-8 It may well be 
that Molly's reaction is not justified - it's hard to know.

> << unlike many of the historically great Headmasters, he does not seem
> to be a clergyman >>
> 
> Here's a question actually related to your essay: WHY were they
> clergymen? Actually, I mean, why would clergymen want to be
> headmasters of snob schools rather than ministering to a congregation
> or running a soup kitchen?   

Well, partly, it's because the Church was a career as much as it 
was a vocation. While most men who entered the church were 
presumably pious, they also had to consider how to feed their 
families, and many were just as likely as anyone else to want to be 
successful. Getting a Headmaster's position at a prominent school 
was a way of making yourself known, and could lead to considerable 
power in the Church heirarchy. A fair number of these Headmasters 
went onto become Deans or even Bishops.

One example - the career path of man who crowned Queen Elizabeth 
II, Geoffrey Fisher

1911-1914, Assistant Master at Marlborough College. Ordained 1913.
1914-1932, Headmaster of Repton School.
1932-1939, Bishop of Chester.
1939-1945, Bishop of London.
1945-1961, Archbishop of Canterbury.

Gaining a position as a Head of such a school was a fairly good 
career move.

Now, the reason clergy were sought to run such schools by the 
Governors of the schools - sometimes, the school's charter required 
a clergyman, but other times, it was simply that they wanted a 
'moral man' to instill good morals in the boys. One of the 
Headmasters primary jobs was to have a positive influence on the 
moral development of his pupils - you're looking for a man with 
high morals, trained to instill high morals in others - looking 
within the church was a good place to start.

And from the perspective of a moral man - well, it could seem an 
attractive proposal from his perspective as well. Running a soup 
kitchen is certainly a way to make a positive difference.

But so is influencing the moral development of the next generation. 
Creating young men who has a decent moral grounding, so when they 
come to influence society, they do so from a moral position - 
that's a powerful thing. For a man who wants to make a positive 
difference for the world - doing his part to ensure the next 
generation of leaders understand the difference between right and 
wrong, may seem very attractive, and a very worthwhile 
contribution.
 
> << In simple terms, what is described as having happened at Hogwarts
> historically seems no worse than that which happened at many other
> schools. >>
> 
> I thought Filch spoke longingly of racks and thumbscrews and hanging
> them from the ceiling by their handcuffs...

No, not of racks and thumbscrews - but yes, he does talk about 
chaining students to the ceiling. That actually did happen in some 
schools historically, but I didn't really want to dwell on those 
details as I was just talking about an historical comparison, 
rather than something that is supposedly happening in Hogwarts now. 
I simply picked out one example.
 
> What other parts of the tradition is Hogwarts missing? As an ignorant
> American, the only one I know for sure is compulsory chapel.

That's certainly one - although chapel wasn't always compulsory. 
Fagging is also missing (practice of using younger students as 
servants by older ones).
 
> Why doesn't Hogwarts have a prize-giving ceremony near the end of the
> school year, with prizes for .... gods, I don't know what the
> wizarding equivalent of "best Latin epigram" would be.  

Again, not a universal - though such ceremonies are common at such 
schools. I didn't think of that omission... I might have to look at 
how common such were, and when they became common - I have 
suspicions they are a relatively recent invention, but I'd need to 
check (relatively recent in this case could mean up to 150 years 
old).

> Why doesn't Hogwarts have any music or arts education, apparently no
> foreign languages or maths?

Because it's not considered necessary - and that matches the public 
schools fairly well as well - until well into the 19th century, 
many of these school focused almost entirely on Latin, Greek, and 
Divinity - things like mathematics, music, art, English, history, 
geography, science, etc - were ignored.

It seems odd to us with our perception of education, but they 
weren't considered necessary for a long time.
 

Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought
Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html
(ISTJ)       | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 
"You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one
thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the 
facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be 
uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that 
need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil
Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia