Grindelwald and Tom Riddle, and end of LV

[Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)]

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "fanofminerva"
<drjuliehoward at y...> wrote:
> I had posted this a few times on the main list but received very 
> little response.  

When I read it on the Main List last week, I made a note to consider
replying, but then I saw that other people had already replied, and I
try to limit how much I just repeat other people.

> We know a little about Grindelwald.  
> 1.  He was the most powerful dark wizard whom DD defeated in 1945.
> 
> 2.  Some have speculated that he had something to do with World War 
> II, give the date. I do not assume he was Hitler as some do, but I 
> do believe that the war in the wizarding world either affected or 
> was effected by WWII in the muggle world.

I am one who immediately assumed that that 1945 indicated a connection
with WWII, from which (and the German-sounding name, which is actually
a place in Switzerland), I assumed that Grindelwald was Hitler's
wizard ally (Hitler is known to have been interested in the occult
such as astrology). From which, I created a vague fanfic in which the
vast Muggle armies, generals, heads of government, and heroes were all
pawns of an international war between wizards ... another in which it
was the Muggles' world war, but some individuals wizards made a
personal choice to help one or another Muggle side ... I prefer the
second because I have another fanfic plot bunny in which Merlin and a
Dark Wizard I invented are the chessmasters behind Arthur and Mordred
... (Mordred, Morded, Modred, Medraut .... More-Dread, More-Dead, Mode
-Red, Mead-draught ... )

However, from discussion on HPfGU, I realised that the dark wizard
Grindelwald might have resided in Britain and had no connection to
WWII other than destruction by his curses might have been covered up
as being from Nazi bombs ... Grindelwald MIGHT have been a professor
at Hogwarts ... perhaps recruiting students as followers ... 

One thing that I've assumed right along, partly from a description 
of Voldemort something like 'the worst dark wizard for a century', 
that Dark Wizard / Dark Witch was a recognized job category in the
Potterverse's wizarding world, and that there was an on-going problem
(maybe two or three a century, maybe one every two or three centuries)
of Dark Wizards/Witches who tried to conquer the entire wizarding
world starting with Britain (and other wizarding countries would have
their own history of Dark Wizards/Witches), so that Grindelwald and
Voldemort were only the two latest in a long parade. I also assumed
that pure-blood racism was optional -- maybe Grindelwald was
Muggle-born and PROUD of it.

(I notice how often I wrote "I assumed" above, which is why I'm afraid
Kneasy counts me as a canon-deficient poster.)

There was at one time discussion (I believe the brilliant Elkins was
active in it) of characteristics of the wizarding folk's culture that
made the rise of Dark Wizard/Witch would-be conquerors inevitable. 
 
> 3.  Grindelwald was mentioned the PS/SS on the back of DD's 
> chocolate frog card along with Flamel.  We learned about Flamel but 
> not much about Grindelwald.
> 
> So now I have listed what I know, let me try to explain my
> questions that I really would like others' opinions about.  First, 
> the timing, to me, is too suspect to not wonder what connection he
> may have with Tom Riddle, who eventually became LV. 

Yes, the timing seems *too* co-incidental. IIRC That's where the idea
of Grindelwald as Hogwarts professor came from ... that he might have
recruited that talented and ambitious student Tom Riddle to be his
assistant Evil Overlord, helped him find the Chamber, written him
letters of introduction to other Dark Wizards to study with them and
read all their libraries ...  

Or he was not a professor at Hogwarts, but he was in Britain and
making a name for himself as a Dark Wizard and young Tom Riddle went
to him to seek tutoring in Dark Magic ... making two ways in which he
could have been present as Grindelwald's assistant when DD defeated
GW, leaving TMR in fear of DD ... of course, there are always ways in
which TMR could have involved himself in the struggle between British
DD and German GW with a final combat like maybe in Switzerland ... or
TMR simply could have decided to pick up GW's fallen torch when he
heard of GW's defeat ...

> Is what makes LV the greatest 
> dark wizard also what empowered Grindelwald?  Could this also be 
> what made Salazar Slytherin turn after the four founded Hogwarts?  
> I'm NOT talking about some possession thing (which was the only 
> response I got from the main list and the person then went off on 

I like to think of Salazar Slytherin as already being evil when
Hogwarts was founded -- the others thinking he was less dangerous to
their plan helping carry it out than attacking it from the outside (I
have fanfic about that, too). That notion contradicts the Sorting
Hat's latest song's statement that Godric and Salazar were once the
best of friends.

I think the 'possession thing' fits nicely as a connection from
Salazar through the long parade of Dark Wizards/Witches to Grindelwald
to Voldemort. I like the idea that the possessing entity is Salazar
himself, made immortal, altho' it being an outside entity would
explain why a hypothetical good Salazar turned evil.

I dislike the idea that the entity was or possessed Salazar, then
possessed no one for centuries until Grindelwald, then passed to
Voldemort. If all the dark wizards in between were merely humanly 
evil humans, to me it would be bad literature for off-stage character
Grindelwald to be more than humanly evil.

> me).  I'm thinking more of a LOTR ring of absolute power kind of 
> idea.  A "power" that is so tempting that people (wizards) will go 
> to any length to acquire and use it.  

Well, in one sense, that is what Dark Magic *is* -- apologies to
listies who care, I know that we don't have a definition of Dark
Magic, is it ANY magic done to harm another person or is it magic 
done with some specific technique, etc? But whatever it is, it is
people who use some kind of magic to get their own way, even tho' the
kind of magic and/or the goals they achieve are considered kind of
evil by their society. We've seen Dark Wizards committing murder;
we've seen them torturing people for fun; I assume that some of them
include rape among their amusements and theft and blackmail among
their businesses ... 

One theory of Dark Magic in general or the Unforgiveable Curses in
paricular is that they are a kind of magic that takes away a little
bit of your conscience each time you do them (what action doesn't?),
or takes away a little bit of your impulse control or your sanity or
your common sense judgment, or makes you a little more sadistic each
time ... 

But to me one reason why wizarding society keeps being troubled by
vicious Dark Wizards is because their social mores don't object all
that much to Dark Magic ... evidence: the Malfoys are well-respected,
apparently the Blacks also were, and Knockturn Alley does business in
broad daylight ... an analogy in modern USA culture might be ...
eating sweets, or fast food hamburgers -- we *call* it 'sinful', we
*call* it 'cheating' (on one's diet), we express disapproval of it --
and we do it anyway, and don't feel all that guilty; *what's more*,
few people hate and despise other people for doing it. It seems to me
that most of the wizarding folk say more 'tut-tut' than 'oh, my God,
how awful' when they read in the DAILY PROPHET of Muggle-baiting, 
even violent physical acts of Muggle-baiting ... another reason is
that IMHO wizardry is about *power*, altho' discussing that would 
make this post even longer.

I'm not all that thrilled about 'evil power' being a *thing* -- the
One Ring has already been done.  

> Second, could this be what defeats LV?  Harry, who is a powerful 
> wizard, is offered this power, possibly after LV is defeated (and 
> TOm Riddle redeemed?).  Harry defeats this dark power by making the 
> CHOICE not to succoumb, thus destroying it.  (Part of this is 
> gleaned from an essay on Mugglenet about the prophesy and the 
> diference between the personas of LV and "The Boy Who Lived" versus 
> the persons of Tom Riddle and Harry Potter.)

I don't see how Harry can end the lineage of Dark Wizards without
utterly changing wizarding society. I don't see how Harry can end
*evil* without ending humanity.