[HPforGrownups] Re: Books 6 & 7 - tragedy or triumph? (moved from main group)

Tue Jul 27 14:22:16 UTC 2004

> Hans: 
> I don't know why Jesus' crucifixion is regarded as such torture. 

Geoff Bannister:
Because Christians believe that Jesus was carrying the punishment for 
the sins of the entire world and, in addition to the physical side 
which has been vividly described by another poster, he was humanly 
cut off spiritually from God the Father during this time.

Phil Boswell:
Well, this might seem obvious, but having the skin shredded off your
back before being forced to carry your own cross (albeit with some
help) to the place of your ultimate execution, then having sodding
great nails hammered through you, then having to hang on them until
you either bleed to death or suffocate, with some Roman grunt sticking
a spear into you just to check that you're done and dusted ... that'll
ping my "torture" detector every time.

And that's considering merely the physical aspect of the experience:
if you're a Christian like me there's a whole 'nother angle to it,
whereby you are separated from your Father God, with whom up till now
you have been integrally bound, and there is a real risk that you're
screwed for eternity, because if there's no risk, the whole thing is a
pointless exercise ... at this point that detector melts down and
trickles off the table.

HTH HAND
-- 
Phil
who really wishes Yahoo!Groups had a "Kill Thread" option and who also
wonders whether an equivalent comment about any other religious figure would
be regarded as "fair game"? and who wonders if anyone's twigged that he was
*really* offended by that particular remark?

Hans' response:
First of all thanks, Geoff and Phil for your explanations. I really like
Geoff's patient and clear reply. There was no offence intended, Phil, I'm
sorry you took it that way.

One of the virtues Christians claim is tolerance and I would like to call
upon your utmost tolerance when discussing this. Without tolerance we end up
with the Inquisition again. I too claim to be a Christian but obviously my
ideas diverge ever so slightly from Geoff's and Phil's.

I've moved this off the main list as it's obviously getting away from HP in
a direct sense.

The aim of this post is to explain, not to convince.

I tried to explain my point of view in post 70318. I'm afraid I failed
totally. No one (as far as I know) knew what I was getting at. Even those
friends on HPFGU who react positively to my posts thought I had written a
"funny post". Well I wasn't joking. I quote the end of post 70318: 

"I wouldn't be surprised if HP becomes a world religion. Already some
churches have had HP sermons and many theologians love HP. Someone is now
writing a ballet about CoS. In the future people will write operas and
oratorios, streets will be named after him and there will be a Harry Potter
Day, as JKR foreshadowed in PS/SS. Here's a possible scenario. Maybe a
little exaggerated, but who can say?

"In about 2000 years time, in the year 2003 HP, people will be disputing
about whether HP really existed. "There is no historical evidence for his
existence", they will say. But of course there will be numerous holy relics.
Enough bones to put together twelve Harry Potters. There will be no copies
of the original books left and the oldest book will be one that was printed
about 300 years after Harry Potter was supposed to have lived. However there
will be certain, um, "adaptations" shall we call them, to the text, because,
well, the texts didn't quite fit in with the opinions of the School Fathers,
did they?

"Schools will have the symbol of the lightning bolt on their towers and this
symbol will be both hated and loved by millions.

"There will be a bloody history of persecution and inquisition, because
those
who didn't quite stick to the doctrine had to be "corrected", didn't they?
For their own good, of course. But that's all forgotten and forgiven now, in
2003 HP, because the Holy Dumbledad has apologised.

The Holy Dumbledad in Amor (a city of the future) will bewail the fact that
so many people are leaving the Mother School. Meanwhile young people are
leaving the Schools because they reckon it's fossilised and decaying.
They're fed up with being edified by the boring exploits of St Potter.

They're more interested in this new author who's writing an epic about a boy
called ..." (end of post 70318)

The point I was trying to make there was that the Old Testament, the New
Testament, the Gospel of the Buddha, the Tao Teh Ching, and Harry Potter are
road maps to the process of Liberation which is open to everyone who wants
to go. But they are written in SYMBOLIC form. That means that a person can
understand the process only when he really longs, deeply desires, intensely
hankers, after it. The key to these symbols is in the heart. These symbols,
as you all know, are stored in the collective unconscious.

The important thing is that what we learn from these symbols must be put
into practice immediately. I quote again here Angelus Silesius (1624-1677):
"Though Christ a thousand times in Bethlehem be born, but not in thee, thou
shalt be yet forlorn." What I'm saying is that it's irrelevant whether
Christ was born, crucified and resurrected UNLESS we do the same thing
ourselves.

Harry Potter is not fiction. It's a method in symbolic form. The New
Testament is not fiction. It's a method in symbolic form. But neither is
meant to be a faithful account of things that have happened historically.
As we can all witness, some people on HPFGU are taking everything in the
books literally. They take the death of Sirius very seriously, and some
people get very emotional. There was an excellent post by Steve about the
world-devastation if Harry dies. Yes many people are taking all this very
seriously indeed. Very literally.

If you read the New Testament with a literal interpretation, yes, I can
understand you finding the suffering on the cross extremely horrifying. The
Son of God being humiliated and tortured in this way! That interpretation
has been prevalent for nearly 2000 years. But my point is that Harry Potter
is telling us Christ is potentially present in our heart, and will be born
if we bring our James and Lily together. Then this inner Christ, this Harry,
will lead us in the process of liberation. He will undergo many trials and
there will have to be death and suffering, because whatever is not divine
within us will have to die. And that causes suffering. But I repeat:
Liberation is utterly joyful.

If you are game, read my quote from post 70318 again, but substitute the
words "Jesus Christ" for "Harry Potter". That is in fact what I hoped people
would do.

Just a small note about the words, "Eli, Eli, la'ma sabach-tha'ni?" to which
Geoff and Phil were referring. My theory is that this is a mistake. In my
opinion the original words were, "Eloi, Eloi, lamah azabvtha-ni", which
means, "Elohim, Elohim, you have poured your radiance over me." The
crucifixion is symbolical. There was no pain. There was no separation from
God.
Hans
(Is that the Inquisitorial Squad knocking on the door?)

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