the point of argument

[Amy Z]

Silverthorne wrote:

>Although it;s nice to be heard, sometimes it's wiser to leave it 
>alone, if not for your own sake, than for everyone else who has 
>to 'listen' to it.

I have two thoughts on that.

One, no one has to listen to it; the beauty of a list is that you 
can read the threads you like, & skip the ones that make you groan.  
That is why the administrators of this list tend to use a light hand 
and declare as few topics as possible off-limits.  The medium is not 
sound, where it is hard to ignore a conversation, but sight, where 
it is easy.

Two, I was finding it edifying.

Three--three thoughts!  I have THREE thoughts!--yes, I agree with 
you, sometimes it's wiser to leave it alone & each participant has 
to be free to walk away when it's no longer fruitful for them.

Four, an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope.

Um, where was I?  Oh yeah.  I guess I have a lot of faith in 
people's ability to change their minds; I frequently change my mind 
as a result of other people's explanations of their stances (not 
about the war, though <grins at Amanda> [sorry for the in-joke . . . 
believe me, if you don't like conflict, you don't *want* to know 
about my & Amanda's political discussions]).  I especially like 
discussions where people are giving and taking, acknowledging each 
other's points, sharing the evolution of their ideas: in short, 
learning from each other.

The reason I found it edifying is that although I agree almost 
entirely with Laura, I was also aware as I read that I had just 
written at some length (in another context) about how things *have* 
eroded in some of the ways you described.  I wasn't specifically 
writing about manners, but I do think manners are in decline--heaven 
knows there are plenty of 60-somethings who don't seem to know the 
polite way to answer a telephone, but on the whole their manners are 
noticeably more considerate than their grandchildren's.  On the 
other hand, I wholeheartedly agree that a generation that is less 
racist, less sexist, more accepting of gays-lesbians-bisexuals-
transgendered folk, and more concerned about the environment than 
the generation before indicates that, far from the good old days 
being good, some things about the human personality have improved 
vastly since then.  I'm a hell of a lot more likely to have my civil 
rights respected if Laura's generation writes the legislation.  

IOW, I have mixed feelings.  Sitting in on a discussion where I have 
agreement with more than one person is particularly interesting--it 
stimulates all sorts of questions in myself about whether I'm 
holding contradictory opinions.

Just my 2+ Knuts,
Amy Z