[HPFGU-OTChatter] Abuse and Context

[Shaun Hately]

On 3 Oct 2004 at 23:17, Amanda wrote:

> I have a couple of questions about context here because I think that 
> I for one have some different ideas about what is actually considered 
> abusive behavoir in terms of a teacher and a student.  Just so you 
> all know where I am coming from, I am a 28 year old college student 
> who grew up in America's deep south (ie. Georgia).  Back when I was 
> in elementary and middle school, the rules were way different than 
> they are now and those rules were totally acceptable.  Children were 
> allowed, under certain circumstances, to be paddled.  Is that abuse?  
> I didn't think so then and I don't think so now.  There are some 
> people in this world that won't get it unless it is applied with 
> physical force.  Teachers were allowed to rule their classrooms as 
> they would, the only exception to that was that teachers were not 
> allowed to pick solely on one person.  That basically meant that when 
> one person got into trouble, everyone got into trouble, which is 
> grosly unfair.

Well, before I reply, I'll just put my views on record so people 
know where I am coming from.

Personally, I'm in favour of the existence of controlled corporal 
punishment as an option in schools. I experienced schools there was 
no physical punishment and I suffered immensely in those 
environments, being the victim of quite serious abuse at the hands 
of other students whoe were not effectively controlled in any way. 
I also experienced schooling in an environment (one of the rares 
ones in my country by that stage) where corporal punishment was 
used, and it served to protect me from bullies, and also had a 
profoundly positive effect on my own behaviour.

> So, my question is actually directed at the British people on the 
> boards.  What is the current (and even during JKR's time at school) 
> acceptable punnishments for school children?  If Snape came to your 
> school and did this to you, would there be recriminations on Snape 
> (nowadays, there would be here in the US...back when I was in school, 
> there would not have been)?  I have heard stories from friends who 
> either went to Eton, for example, or had been friends with people who 
> went there and, from those stories, I can tell you that their 
> schooling experience was vastly different from mine in certain ways.  
> Just like we have all heard the stories coming from Catholic schools 
> about beatings and monstrous beratings from the nuns, I have heard 
> the same coming from private schools (in the US and otherwise) and I 
> think we can all consider Hogwarts to be the most private of private 
> schools.

I am not British - but I did attend an Australian school founded on 
very British traditions (please, people, I don't want to get into 
another argument about this - especially seeing as the recent one 
on another list, seems to have stalled with me having provided 
extensive evidence for my claims - while the person who challenged 
me has not responded (I believe with very good reason - he has much 
more important things going on in his life than responding to me, 
but that discussion has left me feeling rather irritable about the 
whole issue).

What I have done is, for a variety of reasons, made a fairly 
detailed study of how Hogwarts fits into a particular grouping of 
British schools - the British Public Schools. My essay on this 
(with references linked so people can check the references) can be 
found at: http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/HSWW.html

With the questions you are asking, I venture to suggest you may 
find it interesting - and incidentally the last section of the 
essay was on punishment.

But just to a few things in a historical context here.

The Harry Potter books appear to be set in the period 1991-1996 (so 
far).

Corporal punishment, generally administered with a cane or strap on 
the palm of the hand or across the buttocks was legal in virtually 
all British schools until 1986. Not all schools used it by any 
means, and some Local Education Authorities had banned it in their 
schools - but it was still in common use until that date.

It remained legal in private schools until 1998, and at the time of 
abolition, there were reportedly around 200 schools still using the 
cane.

So at the period that we see Hogwarts shown, corporal punishment is 
still legal in Muggle schools.

It was also certainly legal in JKRs time at school, and a biography 
of her I have read, mentions that it was in use at at least one of 
the schools she attended.
  
> So, when you boil it down, are the British schools less liberal than 
> American schools?  Do they hold to the older standards of behavoir?  
> Is what they consider to be abusive behavoir to be the same as what 
> we hold true here in America?  

While I'm not particularly able to get into a particularly informed 
discussion about schools *in general* in the UK and the US, I think 
it's reasonable to say that at the type of school that Hogwarts 
seems to be in Britain, they are certainly likely to hold to older 
ideas and standards of behaviour, and that they probably take a 
fairly traditional approach to deciding what is abusive and what 
isn't.

Personally, as someone who attended a school in the same type of 
tradition, I think JKR used in designing Hogwarts, in the late 
1980s and early 1990s, I can say my school had some rather old 
fashioned ideas in this regard. I did have Snape-like teachers as 
I've said before, and they were entirely tolerated, and indeed 
viewed by many as a significant asset to the school. But that 
wasn't a universal viewpoint by any means (and while my teachers 
were Snape-like, I do think Snape's specific treatment of Harry 
really crosses a line).


Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought
Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html
(ISTJ)       | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 
"You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one
thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the 
facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be 
uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that 
need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil
Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia