[HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Banned Books Week - question

[Shaun Hately]

On 27 Sep 2004 at 13:13, spinelli372003 wrote:

> I understand all of your points.  However I still hold firm to my 
> belief that just because something is out there it shouldn't be 
> accessable to all. Again it is up to the parent to give a child 
> something that he/she feels is appropriate.  my son at 9 could read a 
> porn magazine.  Does that mean it is something acceptable?  NO.  My 
> son at 9 could read a college text book.  again is it something that 
> he needs to see or read at that age?  Children are capable of doing 
> many things but that does not mean they are good for them.  Going by 
> your belief it would follow that your also would agree that having 
> sex at 12 and procreating was ok because biologically they were 
> able?  

No, it wouldn't.

Because it is exceptionally unlikely (probably impossible) that a 
child of 12, no matter how intelligent that child was, is 
emotionally ready for the responsibilities inherent in a sexual 
relationship, and even more unlikely that they are ready in terms 
of emotional maturity for the responsibilities of parenthood.

But emotional factors, while important, are only one part of the 
equation in any decision. Intellectual factors are important as 
well.

The kids I work with have the fundamental need to have access to 
material they are intellectually ready for. If they do not have 
this access, they tend to be very prone to developing high levels 
of depressive illness, and they incur a serious danger of 
significant educational underachievement, along with a host of 
other potential educational, social, and emotional problems.

It is not OK to deprive these children of the opportunities they 
need access to to be emotionally and educationally healthy.

If a book is taken off a library shelf nobody is able to use that 
library to access the book. Everybody's rights are restricted.

If the book is on the shelf, nobody is forced to borrow it, nobody 
is forced to read it, and nobody is forced to allow their child to 
read it if in their judgement their child is not ready to read it.

> I still think it is up to a childs parent to decide if they 
> were old enough.  Not up to the librarian to decide.  and rules are 
> there for the health and safety of the population at large.  I have a 
> hard time with the few parents who have the super bright children 
> demanding that the rest of the world meet their demands.  
I ahve a 
> hard time with 11 yr old kids in college.   Yes there should be 
> material and processes in place for them but it doesn't mean that the 
> world should drop all of the tried and working plans.

All children should be entitled to an education that meets their 
educational needs.

Attitudes like those you express here, killed friends of mine - 
driven to suicide because the education system refused to work to 
meet their needs. Across the western world each year, literally 
thosuands of these children develop serious depressive illness 
because they are denied the education they need to have the same 
chance as any other child to be happy and healthy.

If anyone suggested that black parents were wrong to demand 
appropriate education for their children, that person would be 
labelled a racist bigot. If anyone suggested the parents of 
disabled children were wrong to demand appropriate education to 
meet their children'd educational needs, they would be labelled a 
bigot. You have a problem with 11 year old children in college - 
well, I have a problem with 11 year old children who are reading 
Tolstoy being told they have to spend 6 hours a day, 5 days a week, 
40 or more weeks a year having to 'learn' how to spell the word 
'squirrel' - something many of them could do at the age of 5 or 
younger.

Yes, there are limits to what can be done for these children. The 
real world imposes real financial restraints that means there is 
competition for resources, and often after more pressing needs are 
dealt with, there may not be enough money left to give these kids 
what they need. If prioritising means that other needs need to be 
put first, that's fine.

But allowing kids access to appropriate books for their reading 
level, and their level of understanding, and their level of 
maturity doesn't cost any extra than deciding they should only have 
access to books aimed at the theoretical 'average' child of their 
age.

Every child is entitled to the same dignity and respect of having 
their individual educational needs met wherever it is possible to 
do so. You may have a problem with that - but it's a matter of 
basic human justice.

I agree that it is up to the child's parents to decide whether a 
child should have access to a particular book or not. But guess 
what - parents can only make that decision if the books are 
available. If there are books on your libraries shelf that you do 
not want your children to read it is your responsibility as a 
parent to tell your children that, and it is your responsibility as 
a parent to work to raise children who will respect and obey your 
instructions and wishes.

As you say, it is *not* up to the librarian to make these decisions 
- but if a librarian chooses not to put a particular book on a 
shelf, they *are* making these decisions. If it is truly the 
parents job to decide, then the books need to be there so the 
parents can exercise that judgement.

If a parent judges that their seven year old child is ready for 
'Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix' and the librarian has 
decided that book should not be available to children under ten, 
the librarian is impinging on the parents rights and prerogatives.

Would I let a 9 year old in my care read pornography? No, I 
wouldn't - or rather, there hasn't been a single 9 year old of my 
acquaintance including some who are at college level education who 
I think would be ready emotionally to deal with that material. But 
would I let a 9 year old in my care read a college level textbook? 
Yes, I would - and I have if that is something they want to do - 
and some of these kids do. Their parents could overrule me, of 
course - but in as far as it's my decision, with their knowledge 
and approval, I most certainly would let a child that age read 
adult level books quite freely unless there was specific content 
they were unlikely to be emotionally ready for.

Does a 9 year old *need* to read a college level textbook? It 
depends on how you define need. It's unlikely he or she is going to 
need access to the specific information in any given book - but if 
you have a profoundly gifted child who craves the chance to engage 
their mind with material that they find intellectually challenging, 
then that can be a real need, and if that need is not met, these 
kids can - and often do - switch off from learning. They lose 
interest in education - at any level.

>  The world is 
> as my grandmother would say "going to hell in a handbasket" because 
> so many restrictions and rules that we used to live by have dropped 
> by the wayside.  I think if more parents were involved in what there 
> child were doing rather than just giving a blanket "ITS OK TO DO WHAT 
> YOU WANT" any time any place we would not have as many problems.  
> sherry <<who will now wait for the computer to blow up from the 
> outrage over this post lol>>

The point is Sherry, I completely support your right as a parent to 
impose any rules and restrictions you want to on your children. I 
fully support your right to be highly involved in what your 
children do. I fully agree that more parents *should* be involved 
in what their child is doing - and that is what I want to happen 
here.

I want parents to be guiding what their children read.

I want parents to be telling their children what rules they expect 
their child to live by.

I want parents to be the ones who take responsibility for what 
*their* child is reading, and I want the parents to be the ones who 
make the decisions about what their individual child has access to.

I don't want these decisions placed in the hands of librarians. And 
when people say a library should restrict access to particular 
books, that is purely and simply passing the buck away from parents 
to another body.

It's giving parents an excuse not to do their job.




Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought
Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html
(ISTJ)       | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 
"You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one
thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the 
facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be 
uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that 
need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil
Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia