From snapes_witch at yahoo.com Sat Dec 1 07:13:29 2007 From: snapes_witch at yahoo.com (Elizabeth Snape) Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2007 07:13:29 -0000 Subject: DD or Gangalf - who is greater? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Surprisingly, I've read that Harris also didn't read the books, and I definitely know that he didn't take advantage of the talk with Jo that she offered to all the actors. As far as I know the only adult actors that did were AR and Robbie Coltrane. Perhaps if Gambon had read PoA he would have told Cuaron that DD wouldn't yell at Harry like that! Snape's Witch From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Dec 2 15:52:04 2007 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2007 15:52:04 -0000 Subject: DD or Gangalf - who is greater? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Elizabeth Snape" wrote: > > Surprisingly, I've read that Harris also didn't read the books, and I > definitely know that he didn't take advantage of the talk with Jo that > she offered to all the actors. As far as I know the only adult actors > that did were AR and Robbie Coltrane. > > Perhaps if Gambon had read PoA he would have told Cuaron that DD > wouldn't yell at Harry like that! > > Snape's Witch > Alla: Okay, I read through this thread, I had read Gambon threads in the past and still did not quite figure it out. Now let me disclaim first - I am not a fan of Gambon as an actor, I have not seen any of his work before I saw him as Dumbledore, but I certainly think that overall he did a very decent job with Dumbledore. Except of course that scene where he is shaking Harry, that I thought was idiotic choice **on the director's behalf**. But I do want to ask, putting aside his remarks about fans and books, which is I happen to find quite idiotic and bad PR ( DUH, if you want to stick with franchise, making remarks like this about books and fans is not the way to go, IMO), what are the problems people see with his **performance**? I repeat with his **performance**. As I said above, that scene bugged me as well, but besides that scene I thought he was ideal choice to show how with Harry's outlook changes, Dumbledore changes and becomes more quirky, more down to earth, more human indeed, etc. I mean, it is interesting since I think Harris was indeed perfect for the first two books to show that distant wise sage, whose eyes are twinkling and who can do no wrong, etc. But, um, we know that **do no wrong** so not the case with Dumbledore. I think Gambon is perfect for flawed Dumbledore. IMO, Alla From tonks_op at yahoo.com Sun Dec 2 17:37:32 2007 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2007 17:37:32 -0000 Subject: DD or Gangalf - who is greater? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > But, um, we know that **do no wrong** so not the case with > Dumbledore. > > I think Gambon is perfect for flawed Dumbledore. > Tonks: I see nothing drastically flawed in DD. What do you mean "do no wrong". I don't see it. He didn't kill his sister the other guy did. Keeping Harry alive to die at the right time, no problem. DD isn't the one that put LV's soul in Harry. I don't understand why people see DD as a bad guy. And Gambon just plan sucks as DD. He has no emotion, no sense of DD's greatness. I understand that Gangalf being a more cosmic figure is the greater wizard, but in Harry's world I still love DD. Tonks_op From kempermentor at yahoo.com Mon Dec 3 00:04:26 2007 From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kemper mentor) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 16:04:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: Any Homeopathic remedy recommendations for Carpal Tunnel Message-ID: <656397.58448.qm@web90408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi all... The subject says it all. Does anyone have any recommendations for Carpal Tunnel? Thanks! Kemper ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From elanor.isolda at googlemail.com Mon Dec 3 01:24:36 2007 From: elanor.isolda at googlemail.com (Elanor Isolda) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 01:24:36 +0000 Subject: Announcing Sectus 2009 at Bodelwyddan Castle Message-ID: <6493bc80712021724k2a79c054h1bb721aaf99d2f6@mail.gmail.com> Following on the success of Sectus 2007 in London, we are pleased to present Sectus 2009, a four-day Harry Potter convention for adults. Set in a magnificent Grade II listed castle in Britain, this will be a unique event, combining a formal conference with a celebration of one of the best-loved fantasy series of all time. Sectus 2009 will take place at Bodelwyddan Castle from June 26-29, 2009. Bodelwyddan Castle is a fully-equipped, restored castle with purpose-built rooms that feature all the modern amenities in an historic setting. In addition to having several magnificent period drawing and meeting rooms, Bodelwyddan Castle is home to the National Portrait Gallery's Victorian collection. Sectus 2009 will host a variety of on-site informal programming, including archery, scavenger hunts and evening entertainment, taking full advantage of Bodelwyddan Castle's spacious grounds and multiple on-site bars and meeting rooms. Sectus 2009 will feature the same variety of programming that made the first event so popular - a mix of academic presentations and informal discussions of canon and fandom-related topics. At Sectus we're open to any kind of programming our attendees are interested in covering, whether it be fanfiction, shipping, character development or the series' real world applications. Let us know what you'd like to see at Sectus 2009 when you register - we want the programming to reflect what our attendees are interested in! Sectus is an unofficial Harry Potter convention that is entirely not-for-profit. After a very successful partnership with Book Aid International, all proceeds of Sectus 2009 will go towards SOS Children's Villages UK, a branch of the world's largest orphans' charity, which helps homeless children, in particular those with HIV/AIDS. Space at Sectus 2009 is limited, so register now to guarantee yourself a spot! As a special offer, those who book before the New Year will be appropriated the best rooms at the venue. Registration for Sectus is subject to terms and conditions which are available on our website. The cost starts at ?290, which includes registration and room and board for three nights, breakfast and evening meal for each day inclusive. Rates rise to ?300 on November 1st, 2008 and then to ?310 on February 1st, 2009. Room upgrades are available ? see our website for details. Please visit our website, http://www.sectus.org for more information on the event, registering and advertising with us. You can also drop us a line at info at sectus.org or contact me directly. We hope to see you there! Regards Elanor Isolda Conference Chair Sectus Ltd -- Sectus events are not endorsed, sanctioned or in any way supported, directly or indirectly, by Warner Bros. Entertainment, the Harry Potter book publishers or J.K. Rowling and her representatives. Sectus is a trading name of Sectus Ltd, registered in England and Wales. Registration number: 6130297 Registered Office: 11 Murray Street, London NW1 9RE [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From catlady at wicca.net Mon Dec 3 03:28:50 2007 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2007 03:28:50 -0000 Subject: Announcing Sectus 2009 at Bodelwyddan Castle In-Reply-To: <6493bc80712021724k2a79c054h1bb721aaf99d2f6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Elanor Isolda" wrote: > << Following on the success of Sectus 2007 in London, we are pleased to present Sectus 2009 >> Here is my stupid question: what is the difference between Sectus and Accio? From n2fgc at arrl.net Mon Dec 3 19:08:10 2007 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Lee Storm(God Is The Healing Force)) Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2007 14:08:10 -0500 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Any Homeopathic remedy recommendations for Carpal Tunnel In-Reply-To: <656397.58448.qm@web90408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001801c835df$da2758d0$67a4a8c0@FRODO> All I can suggest is the "Ace" (Vitamins A, C, and E), hand exercises with a set of Chi balls (be sure you find the size that best fits your hand), mineral ice at night with a hand brace. You might need to wear the brace during the day and try to take it easy on the offending hand for a couple weeks. The exercises are to get the hand to stretch and should be done gently at first. Good luck! Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at arrl.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at optonline.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From queen_amidalachic at yahoo.com Tue Dec 4 03:52:31 2007 From: queen_amidalachic at yahoo.com (Maria) Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2007 03:52:31 -0000 Subject: The Boy Who Lived art Message-ID: Title: The Boy Who Lived Rating: very G Characters: Hagrid, Dumbledore, McGonagall and baby Harry. Medium: Pencil. ...Dumbledore stepped over the low garden wall and walked to the front door. He laid Harry gently on the doorstep... For a full minute the three of them stood and looked at the little bundle; Hagrid's shoulders shook, Professor McGonagall blinked furiously and the twinkling light that usually shone from dumbledore's eyes seemed to have gone out. http://frizzyhermione.deviantart.com/art/The-Boy-Who-Lived-71168049 From jelly92784 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 4 05:02:12 2007 From: jelly92784 at yahoo.com (jelly92784) Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2007 05:02:12 -0000 Subject: Help! Quotes! Message-ID: Hey everyone, I've never posted to this list before, but I thought you might be able to help me! I want to make some pages in my scrapbook with my pictures from midnight book parties and the like, as well as the day that I met James and Oliver Phelps (Fred and George Weasley). I want to have some quotes from the books on the pages - things that capture the essence of the series, if that makes sense - just things that stand out and work as short quotes. I want general things, plus I want something Fred and George-related for their page. I have a few things but want more! Any ideas? Thanks for any help! Janelle From stevejjen at earthlink.net Tue Dec 4 12:39:12 2007 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2007 12:39:12 -0000 Subject: Any Homeopathic remedy recommendations for Carpal Tunnel In-Reply-To: <656397.58448.qm@web90408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, kemper mentor wrote: > > Hi all... > The subject says it all. > Does anyone have any recommendations for Carpal Tunnel? > > Thanks! > Kemper Jen: I've tried various treatments for a similar condition affecting the ulnar nerve. There are homeopathic preparations specifically for nerve pain that you can find at a place like Whole Foods. Most include the anti-inflammatory arnica, plus hypericum for shooting pain rather than aching pain (I can't remember the other ingredients). I honestly didn't find the homeopathic remedies that helpful, but I think I waited too long to try them. They may have helped more in the first acute stage of pain. In case you're interested in other options, acupuncture and cupping worked really well although it got too expensive for me to pay out-of- pocket for the 10-12 treatments recommended. Occupational and physical therapy were good too, once there was a firm diagnosis. My trajectory was the traditional route first of neurologist, testing, OT/PT, pain management for cortisone injections, then finally moving onto trying other treatments. All helped to a certain extent, but I wonder what the outcome would have been to start with acupuncture first? What if, what if...! Anyway, best wishes on finding the right treatment. :) Oh, one last thing, I recently found a website with exercises that are helping: http://www.bodymindresources.com/index.htm There's a link to read about carpal tunnel toward the bottom, which will take you to an informational piece with a link to exercises. From gav_fiji at yahoo.com Tue Dec 4 23:52:42 2007 From: gav_fiji at yahoo.com (Goddlefrood) Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2007 23:52:42 -0000 Subject: Some Seasonal News to Tickle Message-ID: I thought Summer was the silly season for news, but the Christmas period must be running it a close second this year. As two examples that came up on Yahoo news today, I draw your attention to: http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20071203/od_afp/swedenchristmaskyrgyzstans antaoffbeat This is headlined, "Santa Claus is coming to town -- for 34 microseconds". That someone actually was bored enough to work this out is something that is hardly surprising in these dull and trouble-free times we live ;-). Apparently Santa would have to travel at a speed of 3,604 miles per second and spend the aforementioned 34 microseconds at each household in order to complete his task. That's about a quarter of the speed of light I think, so just about feasible. The part of this articaler I particularly enjoyed was this, worked out by another, presumably equally bored, person: "Another report circulating on the Internet suggested however that Santa's sleigh, weighed down with presents and travelling at supersonic speed, would encounter such massive air resistance that the entire contraption would burst into flames and be vaporised within 4.26 thousandths of a second." This disregards the fact that Santa is quite patently magical and would know all the tricks to avoid spontaneous combustion. The second ticklish story is headlined, "Tweety, Donald Duck summoned to court". The Italians give us this gem, where a Court in Naples had summoned certain Disney and Warner Brois. characters to testify in a lawsuit relative to counterfeiting. What Donald could possibly have said that would be intelligible is beyond me. The full story can be found here: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071204/ap_on_fe_st/looney_witnesses Happy holiday season Goddlefrood From drdara at yahoo.com Wed Dec 5 01:41:21 2007 From: drdara at yahoo.com (danielle dassero) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 17:41:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] The Boy Who Lived art Message-ID: <289113.57972.qm@web60719.mail.yahoo.com> Very nice :D ----- Original Message ---- From: Maria To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, December 3, 2007 8:52:31 PM Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] The Boy Who Lived art Title: The Boy Who Lived Rating: very G Characters: Hagrid, Dumbledore, McGonagall and baby Harry. Medium: Pencil. ...Dumbledore stepped over the low garden wall and walked to the front door. He laid Harry gently on the doorstep... For a full minute the three of them stood and looked at the little bundle; Hagrid's shoulders shook, Professor McGonagall blinked furiously and the twinkling light that usually shone from dumbledore's eyes seemed to have gone out. http://frizzyhermio ne.deviantart. com/art/The- Boy-Who-Lived- 71168049 ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From textualsphinx at hotmail.com Wed Dec 5 10:38:21 2007 From: textualsphinx at hotmail.com (textualsphinx) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2007 10:38:21 -0000 Subject: FOR PARISIAN FANS - DINNER AT NICHOLAS FLAMMEL'S Message-ID: If any of the HP4GU members here are based in or near Paris, two Parisian Potterheads and I are looking for similar literary Potter-obsessed types to join us for dinner at Nicholas Flammel's restaurant (yes, there really is one and it has been there for 600 years). The dinner is planned for January 9th 2008, for a reason that I hope is obvious. The friend who had this idea - she's more of a lurker than I - is also more restaurant savvy. She tells me that food and wine will set you back about 50 euros. Yes, there are cheaper restaurants but let's face it, it's GOT to be FLAMMEL's. If you are in or near Paris, or thinking of popping over soon, please contact me as soon as possible to verify the date and whether you would like me to reserve you a place as Flammel's is quite a small place. The email to use is; textualsphinx at hotmail.com A bient?t! textualsphinx From zeldazamboni at yahoo.com Wed Dec 5 22:00:49 2007 From: zeldazamboni at yahoo.com (Zelda Zunk) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2007 22:00:49 -0000 Subject: Help! Quotes! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Mugglenet has a quotes page. Looks like there is one just for Fred & George. If you google it I'm sure you'll find more. http://www.mugglenet.com/books/quotes/fred_george.shtml Zelda Zunk Corsets & Capes --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "jelly92784" wrote: > > Hey everyone, I've never posted to this list before, but I thought you > might be able to help me! > > I want to make some pages in my scrapbook with my pictures from > midnight book parties and the like, as well as the day that I met > James and Oliver Phelps (Fred and George Weasley). > > I want to have some quotes from the books on the pages - things that > capture the essence of the series, if that makes sense - just things > that stand out and work as short quotes. I want general things, plus > I want something Fred and George-related for their page. I have a few > things but want more! > > Any ideas? > > Thanks for any help! > > Janelle > From bboyminn at yahoo.com Thu Dec 6 07:33:16 2007 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2007 07:33:16 -0000 Subject: FOR PARISIAN FANS - DINNER AT NICHOLAS FLAMMEL'S In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "textualsphinx" wrote: > > If any of the HP4GU members here are based in or near Paris, > two Parisian Potterheads and I are looking for similar > literary Potter-obsessed types to join us for dinner at > Nicholas Flammel's restaurant (yes, there really is one and > it has been there for 600 years). > > The dinner is planned for January 9th 2008, for a reason that > I hope is obvious. > > ... Yes, there are cheaper restaurants but let's face it, > it's GOT to be FLAMMEL's. > > ... > > textualsphinx > bboyminn: If I recall my Paris travel logs correctly this is more than a cafe named after Nicholas Flammel, this was actually HIS HOME. There are markings in the cellar that indicate 'things' may have been going on there, and cellar has been searched by scientists and historian on the off change that there is a secret chamber hidden there. So, far the 'secret chamber' hasn't been found but there are those Fans of Mr. Flammel's that are convinced his house still hold important secrets. I imagine the aura of magic is indeed palpable in that place. It would be a thrill to go there, but sadly I am several thousand miles away and dead broke. Still... Steve/bboyminn From s.hayes at qut.edu.au Thu Dec 6 08:22:31 2007 From: s.hayes at qut.edu.au (Sharon Hayes) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 18:22:31 +1000 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: FOR PARISIAN FANS - DINNER AT NICHOLAS FLAMMEL'S In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <3EBC8113FA09F449B6CC44C847E510911CDC5ED23B@QUTEXMBX02.qut.edu.au> textualsphinx: > If any of the HP4GU members here are based in or near Paris, > two Parisian Potterheads and I are looking for similar > literary Potter-obsessed types to join us for dinner at > Nicholas Flammel's restaurant (yes, there really is one and > it has been there for 600 years). > > The dinner is planned for January 9th 2008, for a reason that > I hope is obvious. > > ... Yes, there are cheaper restaurants but let's face it, > it's GOT to be FLAMMEL's. Sharon: Oh, I wish!!!!!!! That sounds so magical, but i too, alas, am half-way round the globe, about as far as you can get from Paris. I'll be in Paris next August though (on my birthday :-), so will definitely try to go there. Going to Edinburgh and London too-- can't wait to visit Platform 9 3/4 and the Scottish lady's hometown! Any other Potter-esque sights I ought to see along the way? From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 7 02:54:15 2007 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2007 02:54:15 -0000 Subject: What would have been different in your life if you never read Harry Potter? Message-ID: I wanted to post this on Main, but realised just in time that this could go quite off topic, so here we go. What would have been different in your life had Harry Potter books never existed? It does not have to be anything monumental, I mean these ARE just books, but any change will do. Would you have remained clueless about some information have you never read the books? Would you have never met someone special while getting involved in fandom? Would your shelf of the books that you are rereading constantly just had fewer books on it? As I said, anything will do :) Alla From zgirnius at yahoo.com Fri Dec 7 03:09:56 2007 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (Zara) Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2007 03:09:56 -0000 Subject: What would have been different in your life if you never read Harry Potter? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Alla: > What would have been different in your life had Harry Potter books > never existed? It does not have to be anything monumental, I mean > these ARE just books, but any change will do. zgirnius: Gosh, this is hard to answer. Their existence, and my discovery of them and the fandom, have really affected my life since after HBP came out. My second child had been born recently, and I was looking around for something to do that was fun, involved other people, and did not require paying a babysitter. Would I have found something else? Maybe... I have met people both online and later offline, that I would surely not have met otherwise. My involvement in fandom also reminded me of a long-neglected old hobby (writing fiction) which I gave up in the early 1990s, while in grad school, and never picked back up again, until I realized that there are fans out there that would read *my* stories about the HP universe. I have now happily resumed and find I like it as much as I ever did. From s.hayes at qut.edu.au Fri Dec 7 03:11:27 2007 From: s.hayes at qut.edu.au (Sharon Hayes) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 13:11:27 +1000 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] What would have been different in your life if you never read Harry Potter? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3EBC8113FA09F449B6CC44C847E510911CDCC7A7DA@QUTEXMBX02.qut.edu.au> Alla: What would have been different in your life had Harry Potter books never existed? It does not have to be anything monumental, I mean these ARE just books, but any change will do. Would you have remained clueless about some information have you never read the books? Would you have never met someone special while getting involved in fandom? Would your shelf of the books that you are rereading constantly just had fewer books on it? Sharon: Lots of things would have been different for me. First, I wouldn't have the love of all things HP in common with my 14 year old daughter. We've been fans since we read the first book together when she was just 7 years old. It's something we've shared that's really special. Second, I would have had to find some other avenue for my obsessive personality to latch onto! And believe me there are far worse things than HP to obsess about. LOL. Third, I would never have discovered fan fiction, which I absolutely love, when it's good. Fan fiction helps me get over the fact that there's never going to be another new HP book. *sigh* Finally, the books have helped me a lot in my thinking about ethics and morality, and I've written a paper on morality in the HP books for my work, so I wouln't have had that either. (Most of what's in the paper I've already said in posts on this list, so I won't reiterate here) There are lots of other things, but those four are probably the most important. OH, ONE other as well -- I wouldn't have to spend so much time reading my emails if I'd never read the books and joined this list :-) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 7 03:41:10 2007 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2007 03:41:10 -0000 Subject: What would have been different in your life if you never read Harry Potter? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Alla: > > What would have been different in your life had Harry Potter books > > never existed? It does not have to be anything monumental, I mean > > these ARE just books, but any change will do. > > zgirnius: > I have met people both online and later offline, that I would surely > not have met otherwise. Alla: Oh yeah, I mean for me, I had never been involved in *fandom* of any sort in my life. I mean, I certainly now have the books that I am rereading often, but I do that with so **many** books that I love. But thanks to Harry Potter I met several fascinating people whom I would not have met otherwise. And yes, dearest you are one of them. My involvement in fandom also reminded me of a > long-neglected old hobby (writing fiction) which I gave up in the early > 1990s, while in grad school, and never picked back up again, until I > realized that there are fans out there that would read *my* stories > about the HP universe. I have now happily resumed and find I like it as > much as I ever did. > Alla: And the great stories they are ;) Honestly guys not because she is a friend, she writes really really well. Even if she writes mostly about Snape. MAHAHAHAHAHAHAH. But she has some other things too. From gav_fiji at yahoo.com Fri Dec 7 09:01:01 2007 From: gav_fiji at yahoo.com (Goddlefrood) Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2007 09:01:01 -0000 Subject: What would have been different in your life if you never read Harry Potter? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > Alla: > > > What would have been different in your life had Harry > > > Potter books never existed? Goddlefrood: I wouldn't know, because the books wouldn't exist ;-) If you want a serious answer, then I suppose I wouldn't have had any validation for some crackpot (not crockpot) notions. Also, the online community has been a revelation and I have made some good friends during the course of it, as well as antagonising a few people. That's all part of the fun for me, as living as I do in a relatively isolated spot (from fandom), because so far all those I've met are disembodied fingers on the other end of this cyber realm. One day I hope to meet some fellow members in the flesh. From sherriola at gmail.com Fri Dec 7 13:50:53 2007 From: sherriola at gmail.com (Sherry Gomes) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 05:50:53 -0800 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] What would have been different in your life if you never read Harry Potter? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <47594fbf.03b48c0a.4fea.ffffec9d@mx.google.com> Alla: What would have been different in your life had Harry Potter books never existed? It does not have to be anything monumental, I mean these ARE just books, but any change will do. Sherry now: I'd say the most important thing that would have been different is that there are a few people I have met because of my involvement in HP fandom, whom I would otherwise not have known. Alla, you are one, and I consider you a friend and can't imagine not knowing you, not being able to discuss Harry and Sirius and then just anything else, even outside of Harry's world. And I have a good friend locally, someone I knew casually previously, but who reached out to me when she became obsessed with Potter and wanted to talk. she knew I'd been a fan for years. Now she is one of my best friends. So, since I consider friendship to be the greatest gift in the world, to have gained at least two friends--not to mention the world wide group of acquaintances, several of whom I'd love to know better--Harry has definitely changed my life for the better. Sherry From sistermagpie at earthlink.net Fri Dec 7 14:36:59 2007 From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie) Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2007 14:36:59 -0000 Subject: What would have been different in your life if you never read Harry Potter? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Alla: > I wanted to post this on Main, but realised just in time that this > could go quite off topic, so here we go. > > What would have been different in your life had Harry Potter books > never existed? It does not have to be anything monumental, I mean > these ARE just books, but any change will do. Magpie: Oh, a lot. I was already in a fandom when I got into HP, but I've met some really important people in my life through HP, and the whole fandom conversation has made me write a lot--and I presented a paper at a conference which I would never have dreamed I'd end up doing! -m From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 7 15:51:33 2007 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2007 15:51:33 -0000 Subject: What would have been different in your life if you never read Harry Potter? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Magpie: > Oh, a lot. I was already in a fandom when I got into HP, but I've met > some really important people in my life through HP, and the whole > fandom conversation has made me write a lot--and I presented a paper > at a conference which I would never have dreamed I'd end up doing! > > -m > Alla: Ha, I am still annoyed when I think about it that I got sick before New Orleans and did not get to hear your presentation and see Ceridwen. Sigh. Yeah, conventions are another thing which was a total novelty to me and which I so did not regret learning about. My first one was in Canada in 2004. OMG, I was feeling soo intimidated and did not meet too many people ( But I got to meet Sheryll briefly, hehe) So, I did not meet too many people there, but enjoyed presentations so much and meet a few people. I said that already, I am sure, but Salem in 2005 was a BLAST. And that was because several people from HPFGU went there, so I enjoyed their company and presentations. Sigh, I hope to go to Chicago, but even afraid to register well in advance - way too superstitious. Alla From cinemedia at cinemediapromotions.com Fri Dec 7 16:11:10 2007 From: cinemedia at cinemediapromotions.com (CineMedia Promotions) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 11:11:10 -0500 Subject: OOTP limited edition deluxe soundtrack Message-ID: <031601c838eb$c80fae40$0a00a8c0@beth> Mugglenet.com is offering their visitors a special deal on the Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Deluxe Soundtrack. Visit http://www.mugglenet.com/app/news/show/1370 to see how to save 40% on this limited edition set! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 7 20:57:48 2007 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2007 20:57:48 -0000 Subject: What would have been different in your life if you never read Harry Potter? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > > I wanted to post this on Main, but realised just in time that this > could go quite off topic, so here we go. > > What would have been different in your life had Harry Potter books > never existed? It does not have to be anything monumental, I mean > these ARE just books, but any change will do. > > Would you have remained clueless about some information have you never > read the books? > > Would you have never met someone special while getting involved in > fandom? Would your shelf of the books that you are rereading > constantly just had fewer books on it? > > As I said, anything will do :) > Carol responds: Interesting topic, Alla! I'm constantly caught up in some book or character or historical person or topic that I can't get enough of, but I never expected to be pulled into a series of kids' books (partly the result of a fascination with Snape). I think what's different this time, aside from the experience of waiting for each book along with millions of other people, is the discussions on HPfGU, which simultaneously provide entertainment and the intellectual stimulation that it's hard to find in RL (for me, speaking only for myself). I must confess that I've spent far too much time on the main list and would probably be considerably richer since I'm paid by the project rather than by the week or month if I'd never learned that other adults were at least as obsessed with the books and characters as I was. But it's good to know that I'm far from alone and not crazy! :-) Carol, at a loss for a new obsession and unwilling to let this one go even though the series is complete From jelly92784 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 8 03:56:00 2007 From: jelly92784 at yahoo.com (jelly92784) Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2007 03:56:00 -0000 Subject: What would have been different in your life if you never read Harry Potter? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Alla: What would have been different in your life had Harry Potter books never existed? Janelle: This is a great question! I've always been a reader and always had an obsessive personality but the Harry Potter novels took it to a whole other level. They got me interested in reading for details and analyzing texts, which I believe led towards my becoming an English major. It might have happened otherwise, but maybe not. Although I always considered English my secondary major, after psychology which I plan to use in my career, English classes were the ones that I took for fun and I applied much of what I learned to Harry Potter! I also now have a love for 18th and 19th century British literature! Also, this was the first of my many obsessions that my entire family shared and I think our discussions about plots and characters played an important part in helping my sisters and my mom and I to transition to more adult relationships. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 8 16:10:49 2007 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2007 16:10:49 -0000 Subject: What would have been different in your life if you never read Harry Potter? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Carol responds: > > Interesting topic, Alla! I'm constantly caught up in some book or > character or historical person or topic that I can't get enough of, > but I never expected to be pulled into a series of kids' books (partly > the result of a fascination with Snape). Alla: Yeah, I am also constantly caught up in one book or another. Funnily it was not that unexpected for me to be pulled in the kids' books in a sense that many books that I reread do include at least five or six books from my childhood. Although I guess Three musketeers do not really count as kids' book, more like teens' books and it was not written as teens' book even. Anyways, for me the "obsession" part was different, since I never in my life was obsessed over any book or musical group or movie, anything. I had never been a "fan" if that makes sense. As I said, I have plenty books that I love dearly, but I never felt a need to discuss them with anybody over and over and over ... You get the gist :) There is that book though "The demolished man" that I read when I was probably ten or eleven and I cannot count how many times I reread it ever since - first in russian, then when I came here in english, realising how good the translation was, so I think this book counts as close to the obsession as possible, hehehe. > Carol, at a loss for a new obsession and unwilling to let this one go > even though the series is complete > Alla: To me, well, untill nobody else would want to discuss it on Main, I am not planning to let it go completely, but when the discussions will stop, well then Harry will be just one of the many books that I hold dear, you know? I am back to reading new books or rereading old favorites, not that I ever stopped doing it, heheh. I actually recently found a forum to discuss Dostoevsky, maybe I will be courageous enough to start posting there. From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Sat Dec 8 17:09:42 2007 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2007 17:09:42 -0000 Subject: What would have been different in your life if you never read Harry Potter? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > > I wanted to post this on Main, but realised just in time that this > could go quite off topic, so here we go. > > What would have been different in your life had Harry Potter books > never existed? It does not have to be anything monumental, I mean > these ARE just books, but any change will do. I suppose the biggest things for me is that it unlocked my creativity in writing song parodies. I'd written these parodies intermittently over the years on various matters, but never in a focused and sustained manner until HP. I had never even heard the word "filk" until I starting posting my parodies on the main list. It also forced me to learn HTML - or the rudiments therof, at least - so I could have a website to display my filks. My site first went up in August 2001, and of course, I've enjoyed much correspondence over the years with the 250 or so contributors, as well as inumerable HP fans. And I had a great time meeting some of my fellow filkers at fancons in Orlando and Vegas (even had my name and pic in the Orlando paper!). Now, if I could only get HMS Dumbledore staged.....! - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From fuji_syusuke94 at yahoo.com.my Sat Dec 8 16:19:22 2007 From: fuji_syusuke94 at yahoo.com.my (fuji_syusuke94) Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2007 16:19:22 -0000 Subject: What would have been different in your life if you never read Harry Potter? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Oh my gosh... I don't know what to say but I'm pretty sure that I will regret for my entire life if I didn't read Harry Potter's... That book sure is pretty famous in Malaysia and most of them keep telling about the Harry Potter's story which make me a bit envy you know... But, thank god I've managed to read the book and watch the movie... fuji_syusuke94 From catlady at wicca.net Sat Dec 8 18:39:43 2007 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2007 18:39:43 -0000 Subject: Some Seasonal News to Tickle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Goddlefrood" wrote: > > I thought Summer was the silly season for news, but the > Christmas period must be running it a close second this > year. As two examples that came up on Yahoo news today, I believe Yahoo! got those news items from Reuters news agency Odd News section. Reuters Odd News is never empty, regardless of the time of year. My clock radio alarm plays NPR Morning Edition, and they always have 30 seconds of silly on the half-hour, which they usually get from Reuters Odd News, and I heard two of your examples there. > This is headlined, "Santa Claus is coming to town -- for > 34 microseconds". That someone actually was bored enough > to work this out is something that is hardly surprising > in these dull and trouble-free times we live ;-). This was distributed in a press release from a Swedish engineering firm, so presumably some employee(s) worked it out on company time -- and they may have been ordered to do so, rather than being bored and goofing off. Ordered as make-work, or ordered for the intention of distributing the press release. The press release served the normal business purpose of getting their name in the news -- free publicity -- so they may have the slight advantage of sounding slightly familiar when they bid on contracts in Sweden or Europe. > "Another report circulating on the Internet suggested however > that Santa's sleigh, weighed down with presents and travelling > at supersonic speed, would encounter such massive air resistance > that the entire contraption would burst into flames and be > vaporised within 4.26 thousandths of a second." I hadn't read that one before. > http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071204/ap_on_fe_st/looney_witnesses Morning Edition hadn't mentioned Italian names of the characters, so I was thinking that I have heard of a real person with the unfortunate given name of Donald Duck ... I think that was a long-ago Odd News presumably contributed by a stringer who read a list of entering recruits at Camp Pendleton ... From HMaffioli at san.rr.com Sat Dec 8 19:32:55 2007 From: HMaffioli at san.rr.com (Heather Maffioli) Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2007 11:32:55 -0800 Subject: Small Favor!! Message-ID: Hi ALL, Could you take a moment to go to the following link and vote for my poster? http://www.dundermifflininfinity.com/tasks/globalvote?from=144&cp=7&week=8 It is in the second row. Two over from the right. There is a picture of the character Ryan Howard from The Office and the text reads on ?AMBITION: on the ladder of life some people are climbers the rest are rungs? If I place in the top 10 I will win a prize from NBC and it would be great if you could help me!! I have a disadvantage being on the last of 5 or 6 pages of posters so your vote would really help. THANKS!!! Heather [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From catlady at wicca.net Sat Dec 8 21:02:30 2007 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2007 21:02:30 -0000 Subject: Words Message-ID: Hey, does anyone know when the word 'repel' should be used and when the word 'repulsed'? 'He was repelled by her suggestion' or 'He was repulsed by her suggestion'? From zgirnius at yahoo.com Sat Dec 8 21:34:10 2007 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (Zara) Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2007 21:34:10 -0000 Subject: Words In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: > > Hey, does anyone know when the word 'repel' should be used and when > the word 'repulsed'? 'He was repelled by her suggestion' or 'He was > repulsed by her suggestion'? zgirnius: Both could be used, they are used as synonyms. Sticklers would prefer "repelled", claiming "repulsed" should be reserved for physical rather than psychological causes. "The soldiers stood their ground and repulsed the enemy's charge" e. g. And sticklers would suggest you avoid passive voice: "Her suggestion repelled him". \end Hemionism, tee hee From kempermentor at yahoo.com Sat Dec 8 22:35:39 2007 From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kemper mentor) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 14:35:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Words Message-ID: <973215.48516.qm@web90404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> zgirnius: ... And sticklers would suggest you avoid passive voice: "Her suggestion repelled him". Kemper now: Isn't your example active? Passive would be: Her suggestion is repelling to him. Right? Kemper ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Sat Dec 8 23:17:52 2007 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2007 23:17:52 -0000 Subject: Words In-Reply-To: <973215.48516.qm@web90404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, kemper mentor wrote: > > > zgirnius: > > ... > > And sticklers would suggest you avoid passive voice: "Her suggestion > > repelled him". > > > > Kemper now: > Isn't your example active? > Passive would be: Her suggestion is repelling to him. > > Right? > > Kemper Geoff: I would be more likely to say "Her suggestion is repellant to him" From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sun Dec 9 00:21:56 2007 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2007 00:21:56 -0000 Subject: Words In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Catlady wrote: > > Hey, does anyone know when the word 'repel' should be used and when > the word 'repulsed'? 'He was repelled by her suggestion' or 'He was > repulsed by her suggestion'? > Carol responds: Speaking as a copyeditor, I would suggest "repel" when you mean "to drive away" or "drive back" (whether you're talking about a person's cold behavior repelling friendly advances or a magnetic charge repelling a similar charge) and "repulse" when you mean "to cause aversion or repugnance" (for example, Harry's own action of forcefeeding poison to DD repulses, not repels, him; Snape's countercurses repel, not repulse, Harry's curses). I guess the choice of "repelled" or "repulsed" in your example depends on what her suggestion was and whether it made him feel cold toward her or actually disgusted him. However, I think of "repel" as active (repelling an insect--insect repellant--and "repulse"--or rather, "to be repulsed"--as passive and involving a reaction (whether physical or emotional). So you might say, "her suggestion repelled him" but "he was repulsed by her suggestion," depending on whether her words or his reaction is more important. Carol, who can't offer more specific advice without knowing the actual suggestion and how it affected the hearer From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Dec 9 00:42:04 2007 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2007 00:42:04 -0000 Subject: Translation of HP again Message-ID: Wellll, I swore that after mysterious dissappearance of Professor Sprout from book 7 and Neville becoming professor of potions, I am not getting book 7 in russian translation. I am still not getting it :) BUT it seems that russian bookstores in New York are now importing ukrainian books as well. I could not resist - Ukrainian cover art was so lovely if nothing else :) So far I am not regretting it AT ALL. I cannot comment on the quality of translation all together just yet BUT the fact that Snape's last name is not spelled almost like you would spell **SNOW** in russian and the fact that they are not translating the names of the houses makes me feel reasonably optimistic, heheh. Oh, and the poetry in the beginning is beatifully translated IMO. Alla From catlady at wicca.net Sun Dec 9 02:59:16 2007 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2007 02:59:16 -0000 Subject: "Hus" plus "Bond" Message-ID: Pippin Foxmoth wrote in : << You know the etymological derivation of "husband" don't you? It's supposed to come from Old Norse -- "master of the house." >> Which says << from hus "house" + bondi "householder, dweller, freeholder, peasant," from buandi, prp. of bua "to dwell" The sense of "peasant farmer" (c.1220) is preserved in 'husbandry' (first attested c.1380 in this sense). Beginning c.1290, replaced O.E. wer as "married man," companion of wif, a sad loss for Eng. poetry. >> Even if it means the 'owner' of the house (as 'freeholder) that still doesn't mean 'master' of the people in it. If it means 'dweller' in the house, even less so. House-man. Her husband = the man who dwells in the house with her = the man she lives with. As for 'wer', doesn't that just mean 'man', as in 'werewolf'? says <> "I now pronounce you man and woman" sounds so much more redundant (to modern, or at least my, ears) than "I now pronounce you husband and wife". They were already a man and a woman before they even got engaged. From tonks_op at yahoo.com Sun Dec 9 06:37:50 2007 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2007 06:37:50 -0000 Subject: What would have been different in your life if you never read Harry Potter? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > > What would have been different in your life had Harry Potter books > never existed? Tonks: If I had never read that first book, my life would be so much different now. All I can say without giving any more information than I care to here, is God Bless Harry!!! Reading that first book, and all after, has opened doors I would never have knocked on. He changed my life in so, so many ways. I thank him and Rowling every day. I wish there were a few more HP books, at least for about 5 more year. But, sorry, I can???t say why. ;-) I can say that among other things, because of Harry, I have started to write and hope to have a book published next year. Tonks_op From zanooda2 at yahoo.com Sun Dec 9 06:59:05 2007 From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2) Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2007 06:59:05 -0000 Subject: Translation of HP again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > Wellll, I swore that after mysterious dissappearance of > Professor Sprout from book 7 and Neville becoming professor > of potions, I am not getting book 7 in russian translation. Hi, Alla! Sprout didn't disappear from the book altogether, she disappeared only from one scene, so it was McGonagall who had to say Sprout's lines instead, poor dear :-). > I could not resist - Ukrainian cover art was so lovely if nothing > else :) I don't like the Ukrainian cover - the artists copied the Trio from the movies, and that's not right, IMO. > So far I am not regretting it AT ALL. I cannot comment on > the quality of translation all together just yet BUT the > fact that Snape's last name is not spelled almost like you > would spell **SNOW** in russian and the fact that they are > not translating the names of the houses makes me feel > reasonably optimistic, heheh. I heard from some people living in Ukraine that they are satisfied with their translation - don't know how close to the truth this is. At least they only have one translator - in Russia it's always team work, which I really hate. Maybe I should buy the Ukrainian book as well, I just don't understand the language well enough to appreciate the translation, I'm afraid. French translations seem OK (I only read the first two books though), at least compared to the russian ones. I wanted to buy DH in French, but it costs 75 dollars on Amazon - no, thank you :-)! I was thinking about getting at least one book in Hebrew, but I know Hebrew probably even less than Ukrainian, so I'm not sure it would be worth it :-)! > Oh, and the poetry in the beginning is beatifully translated IMO. In Russian they just used the already existing translation of Aeschylus. Take care, zanooda From s_ings at yahoo.com Sun Dec 9 16:38:07 2007 From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 11:38:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] What would have been different in your life if you never read Harry Potter? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <208527.12454.qm@web63406.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Alla: > I wanted to post this on Main, but realised just in > time that this > could go quite off topic, so here we go. > > What would have been different in your life had > Harry Potter books > never existed? It does not have to be anything > monumental, I mean > these ARE just books, but any change will do. > > Would you have remained clueless about some > information have you never > read the books? > > Would you have never met someone special while > getting involved in > fandom? Would your shelf of the books that you are > rereading > constantly just had fewer books on it? > > As I said, anything will do :) > Sheryll: I almost never post on Main, so good thing this thread is here. I've definitely learned a lot from reading Main. Canon discussion has veered off into so many topics where my knowledge was minimal or non-existant. But, like many others, the best thing that's happened to me has been the meeting of new friends. In fact, I met my best friend through these lists. It started out with an offer on her part to pick up some HP merchandise that was on sale in her neck of the woods. It progressed to exchanges of emails and then phone calls. Within a year I was hopping on a Greyhound bus from a trip from Ottawa to San Antonio. I've made the trip what? Amanda, help me out here. 4 - 5 times already? And another trip planned for February, this time with my daughter in tow. I've been to a few of the HP conferences, regretted the ones I couldn't attend, planned one myself (with a second Convention Alley in the works for next summer). That's where I got to meet you, Alla, however briefly! We'll have to do better at another event! I've met so many wonderful people and there are so many more I'd love to meet in RL. A few of the local volunteers for the 2004 event still meet regularly, too. Any excuse for a pot luck and chance to catch up. :D And one of the prized pieces of my HP collection came from Convention Alley 2004. We had no idea that the Portuguese translator was attending with her daughter. At the Meet and Greet she presented me with a copy of OotP in Portuguese and signed it just above her name. That's got a special place on my shelf. Okay, have rambled long enough, I think. What it all comes down to for me is that this fandom is as much about the people in it as it is about the books. Sheryll Join the fun at Convention Alley 2008 Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail. Click on Options in Mail and switch to New Mail today or register for free at http://mail.yahoo.ca From n2fgc at arrl.net Sun Dec 9 18:37:31 2007 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Lee Storm(God Is The Healing Force)) Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2007 13:37:31 -0500 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] What would have been different in your life if you never read Harry Potter? In-Reply-To: <208527.12454.qm@web63406.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001501c83a92$8f263060$67a4a8c0@FRODO> How has my life changed because of the HP Books? 1. I would have probably never heard of Jim Dale and had the pleasure of enjoying his readings of the books. I would probably never have exchanged e-mail with Jim and, through him, been connected with a family who was going through rough times and I was able to reach out to them. 2. With all my Star Trek fandom activity and Battlestar Galactica (Original Series) fandom activity, I never went out in public in costume; however, I did wear a robe and hat with wand to attend OOTP. 3. I probably would never have become a devotee of Bertie Botts and my husband would never have become a Jelly Slug fan, not to mention chocolate frogs, but they're too seasonal. 4. I probably would not have had so much fun the last three or four Halloweens. And that's my story and I'm stickin' to it. :-) Suffice it to say, it's been fun. Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at arrl.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at optonline.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From bboyminn at yahoo.com Sun Dec 9 19:38:13 2007 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2007 19:38:13 -0000 Subject: What would have been different in your life if you never read Harry Potter? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- "dumbledore11214" wrote: > > ... > > What would have been different in your life had Harry Potter > books never existed? It does not have to be anything > monumental, I mean these ARE just books, but any change will > do. > > ... > > As I said, anything will do :) > > Alla > bboyminn: An excellent question, most excellent, but one that is not that easy to answer as it deals somewhat with emotional issues as well as practical. But I've never let not knowing what to say stop me from rambling on endlessly, so here it goes. First to a rapidly fading brain, fading with disuse and old age, it has been a godsend, the books, and more importantly the discussion groups, have demanded that my brain think and analyze, contemplate, ponder, imagine, create. In short, it has given my tired brain a reason to exist, further, it has given it a reason to grow both intellectually as well as ethically and morally. I'm amazed at the depth and range of discussion in the various HPfGU groups which for the record are the most thorough and deep discussions anywhere on the net. Many people, including myself, complain about the tight control and moderation of the groups, but that is precisely what allows the depth of discussion here. I've spoke with the MODS about sending an email to JKR to inform her that if she want to see the deepest, broadest, and most thorough discussion of her books, she should check out the various HPfGU groups on Yahoo. I suspect if she had, we would have had the privilege of being a group honored by JKR on her website. Unfortunately that notoriety would have expanded the work load on the all-volunteer moderators to the breaking point. So, in the end, it was decided against, and probably wisely so. So, if nothing else, I thank the group for many fun years of well needed intellectual stimulation in a real world that offers very little. That may sound strange, but it is very hard to find someone to talk to about serious things. In my much too long life (meaning I am old, or at least feel old), I have only found a few rare individuals who had the intellect to look at the world on a deeper level, who also had a willingness to voice their opinions in an intelligent way. I found an abundance of that intelligence at HPfGU. We discussed politics, ethics, morality, philosophy, religion, the nature of courage and loyalty, the nature of good and evil, and much much much more. You've always been here over many many years, you've always been wise and occasionally infuriating, you've made me laugh, you've made me cry, you've made me care, and for that, I can never say thank you enough. That said, I've never wanted to meet any of you face-to-face. On certainly, I'm intrigued by the idea on occasion, but that is part of the beauty of conversation over the Internet. There is no judgement on anything other than what I say. It doesn't matter if I am ugly or beautiful (for the record, somewhere in between), if I wear fancy cloths or rags, if I'm educated or not, black, white, or other, Catholic, Protestant, Jew, or other, it doesn't matter where I live, nothing matters other than what I say and the opinions I express. I think if you met me, you would be disappointed, as in real life, I am not the long-winded know-it-all that I seem in the group. And that brings up another problem, I don't do well in groups, face-to-face groups. I'm not inclined to force my way into a conversation until my opinion is heard and understood. I'm far more inclined to sit back and let others hash it out. But on-line, no one can interrupt me, no one can jump in as I pause to think. I have all the time in the world to make my thoughts deep and complete and to express myself fully. It's very nice to have that luxury. Next, and I realize as usual, I am being long-winded again, but Harry and the gang and this group have taught me about the nature of heroism, courage, loyalty, morals, and ethics. Something that I very much hope and believe carries over into my real life. I think part of the beauty of JKR's books is that she doesn't preach moral lessons. If fact, the moral lesson, whatever it may be, is never very clear, and I think that IS a far stronger moral lesson than the perfect black-and-white Sunday school preachy morality tale you get in some books. In the Potterverse morality is a struggle just like in real life. Being good is an endless struggle for Harry and the gang just as it is for real kids. They are not perfect polite universally moral people in the books, just people who struggle to do the best they can with what they have. Ultimately though, Harry and the gang do do the right thing, they do side with honor and true morality, with courage and faith, and that example and the thoughts it stimulates is a far better morality tale than all the droning sermonizing in the world. Any moral lessons you may find, doesn't come from the books, the books merely stimulate that lesson to come from deep within you. I've always said, the lessons you learn best are the ones you teach yourself. True knowledge comes from revelation, not from explanation. Finally, along with the intelligent discussion and the creativity they entail, I have been stimulated to both read and write more. I've read many many books since starting the Harry Potter series, and I have grown with each one of them. I'm a better person for it. Plus there was a period where JKR has lit my brain on fire, creative Harry stories pour out of me and into the world. I've written well over 1,000 pages of Fan Fiction which is many hundreds of thousands of words. It was well over 250,000 words as I last remember. That is the equivalent of two or three full novels. Some of it is even fit for general audiences, though the bulk of it is SLASHy in the extreme. And that, I think is a metaphor for how this Series has affected me. It has lit me on fire; my mind thinks, my body feels, my spirit soars, and I've expanded my horizons far beyond this series. Or at least that's how this long-winded know-it-all sees it. Steve/bboyminn From americanghosttour at yahoo.com Sun Dec 9 20:15:38 2007 From: americanghosttour at yahoo.com (americanghosttour) Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2007 20:15:38 -0000 Subject: new to HP books -- suggestions ??? Message-ID: Hello. I've never read any of the HP books, but everyone keeps telling me that I should. I'm more of an Anne Rice "Vampire Chronicles" fan, so I'm not sure if the HP series is really something I'd like.... What do you all think? And where should I start, if I decide to read these? Thanks in advance, "Mistress Mina" www.ExtraNiceDeals.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From zgirnius at yahoo.com Sun Dec 9 20:34:23 2007 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (Zara) Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2007 20:34:23 -0000 Subject: new to HP books -- suggestions ??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Mistress Mina: > I'm not sure if the HP series is really something I'd like.... What do > you all think? And where should I start, if I decide to read these? > zgirnius: Well, obviously I will join the chorus of people urging you to try. FWIW, I liked the early Vampire Chronicles books (the later ones sort of got repetitive for my taste). Unlike those, HP has only one principal character, and describes seven consecutive years of his life. (There is an abundance of other interesting "main" characters in HP, but it is not like the Vampire books which are actually about different vampires's lives.) For this reason, the first book chronologically is the best place to start, which is "Harry Potter and the Sorceror's Stone" (Philosopher's Stone, outside the US). That said, I read that book, and its sequel, and liked them OK (as opposed to being obsessed, amazed, and eager to read the sequels). It was the third book, "Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban" that really hooked me. However, reading that book first would spoil certain aspects of the earlier books. From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Sun Dec 9 21:04:40 2007 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2007 21:04:40 -0000 Subject: new to HP books -- suggestions ??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "americanghosttour" wrote: > > > Hello. I've never read any of the HP books, but everyone keeps telling > me that I should. I'm more of an Anne Rice "Vampire Chronicles" fan, so > I'm not sure if the HP series is really something I'd like.... What do > you all think? And where should I start, if I decide to read these? > > Thanks in advance, > "Mistress Mina" Geoff: May I quote the excellent advice from the King to the White Rabbit in Lewis Carroll's 'Alice in Wonderland': "Begin at the beginning and go on till you come to the end; then stop." From bboyminn at yahoo.com Sun Dec 9 21:36:13 2007 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2007 21:36:13 -0000 Subject: new to HP books -- suggestions ??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > > --- "americanghosttour" > wrote: > > > > > > Hello. I've never read any of the HP books, but everyone > > keeps telling me that I should. I'm more of an Anne Rice > > "Vampire Chronicles" fan, so I'm not sure if the HP series > > is really something I'd like.... What do you all think? > > And where should I start, if I decide to read these? > > > > Thanks in advance, > > "Mistress Mina" > > Geoff: > May I quote the excellent advice from the King to the White > Rabbit in Lewis Carroll's 'Alice in Wonderland': > > "Begin at the beginning and go on till you come to the end; > then stop." > bboyminn: As usual Geoff has got it right. You are making much too big a deal out of reading these books. Go to Walmart, or some similar story, get the paperback edition of the first book for roughly US$6.00 and read it. The worst that can happen is you will be entertained for several hours. The best that can happen is you will fall in love with some very lovable, funny, and brave characters. JKR isn't preach in her morality. Her characters struggle with right and wrong just like real people. Sometimes they get it right, some times they get it wrong, but when it really counts, when it really matters, they try to do the right thing ...you know ...just like real people. All you are risking is several entertaining hours; mildly entertaining or highly entertaining varies with the individual, but I guarantee, even if you read only the first book, you will never regret it. Just one man's opinion. Steve/bboyminn From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 11 03:09:04 2007 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 03:09:04 -0000 Subject: new to HP books -- suggestions ??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Geoff: > > May I quote the excellent advice from the King to the White > > Rabbit in Lewis Carroll's 'Alice in Wonderland': > > > > "Begin at the beginning and go on till you come to the end; > > then stop." > > > bboyminn: > > As usual Geoff has got it right. You are making much too > big a deal out of reading these books. > > Go to Walmart, or some similar story, get the paperback edition > of the first book for roughly US$6.00 and read it. > > The worst that can happen is you will be entertained for > several hours. The best that can happen is you will fall in > love with some very lovable, funny, and brave characters. > > Carol adds: One thing that hasn't been mentioned: The reading level and complexity of the books increase as the characters age. The early books are kids' books that can be enjoyed by adults; the later books, and especially the last two, aren't really kids' books at all, though they're marketed as "young adult" fiction (meaning for ages twelve and up, IIRC). If you don't like spoilers, I suggest avoiding discussion groups, especially the main HPfGu list, until you've read all seven. Then by all means come back and discuss them with us. Carol, who thinks that reading the books in any order other than chronological would be a mistake From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Dec 11 12:51:42 2007 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 12:51:42 -0000 Subject: What would have been different in your life if you never read Harry Potter? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Alla wrote: > > I wanted to post this on Main, but realised just in time that this > could go quite off topic, so here we go. Potioncat: Good thing you did. I'm going to bring in TMTMNBN. > > What would have been different in your life had Harry Potter books > never existed? It does not have to be anything monumental, I mean > these ARE just books, but any change will do. Potioncat: I could just cut and paste from other posts. Like Carol, I've spent time on HP that should have been used for more more important thngs. Like BBoy, I consider it stimulation for the mind. I've been a stay- at-home mom for years, I can use all the stimulation I can get! (And my HP posts began to suffer once I went back to work.) Like Zginius, I began writing fiction again. My husband considers it my hobby and my kids love to tease me about being a Potter-head. I do tend to let it take over, so from time to time I leave for a few weeks. > > Would you have remained clueless about some information have you never > read the books? Potioncat: I've been reminded of legends and myths; of history. I've seen how something can be viewed so differently by different people.("oops") I've learned about literary styles and techniques. > > Would you have never met someone special while getting involved in > fandom? Would your shelf of the books that you are rereading > constantly just had fewer books on it? Potioncat: I've met lots of people that I've enjoyed spending time with, many that I consider friends. The trick will be to work on the friendships beyond HP. I sort of envy those who have been able to meet each other, or to attend HP events. As to the MTMNBN...my youngest son has a form of Autism and also speech problems. When he was younger, I generally had to translate his speech for others. (when I could.) He was becoming interested in "theater and movies" about the time the first or second movie came out. We went from listening to Snape's potions speech and saying "Who is that Rickman guy?" to renting Galaxcy Quest to figure out who the heck he was in that movie. That led to discussions about how actors become different characters. Which led to renting Branaugh's "Henry" (IV or V?) which led to the CD "When Love Speaks." Oh, I can't remember how old he was, but this little kid and I were listening to Shakespeare's sonnets as read by Aunt Petunia, Wormtail, Ollivander etc, etc.... And my son did a portion of Hamlet's soliliquey on stage in summer drama camp when he was still very young. (He's 13 now) Using James Earl Jones and Alan Rickman as actors who had speech difficulties for inspiration, Michael's speech is now very clear. (For the record, we've since discovered that Alan Rickman did not have speech problems as a child.) And once again, I'm deep into my HP world when I should be getting kids off to school! Forgive all the spelling errors, please! Potioncat From n2fgc at arrl.net Tue Dec 11 19:39:17 2007 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Lee Storm(God Is The Healing Force)) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 14:39:17 -0500 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: What would have been different in your life if you never read Harry Potter? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001301c83c2d$878a45c0$67a4a8c0@FRODO> |Potioncat: |Good thing you did. I'm going to bring in TMTMNBN. [Lee]: Uh--what be that? Lee (Whose Brain Went Mush) From mcrudele78 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 11 19:58:01 2007 From: mcrudele78 at yahoo.com (Mike) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 19:58:01 -0000 Subject: What would have been different in your life if you never read Harry Potter? In-Reply-To: <001301c83c2d$878a45c0$67a4a8c0@FRODO> Message-ID: > > |Potioncat: > |Good thing you did. I'm going to bring in TMTMNBN. > > [Lee]: > Uh--what be that? > > Lee (Whose Brain Went Mush) Mike: The Media That Must Not Be Named - i.e. The HP Movies Which can be named on OTC, but you must spit like Snape did when he got off his broom in PS/SS, right after saying it. Mike, who usually saves saliva by not mentioning that media From jonathan_roberts2002 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 11 20:46:45 2007 From: jonathan_roberts2002 at yahoo.com (Jonathan Roberts) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 20:46:45 -0000 Subject: anyone have some books they are wanting to get rid of? Message-ID: Hey, Whats up? Well I am a Big Fan of Mystery Books. I am looking for some good books to read. If anyone has some good books they would like to get rid of. Please give me a shout. I am on a fixed permant income and sometimes its hard to get any good books when your on a fixed rate when you do not make much money. I know some people just get rid of books after they read them and usually just give them to Goodwill. Some books I would like to start collecting is Janet Evanovich, I read one book by her and I loved it. If you have any good books by her they yall are getting rid of or duplicates.It would be awesome if you could help me out. Please feel free to contact me at my yahoo email address jonathan_roberts2002 at yahoo.com or message me at my yahoo messenger screen name jonathan_roberts2002. I hope each and everyone of you have a Merry Christmas and God Bless you! May he bless you deeply. Jonathan From n2fgc at arrl.net Tue Dec 11 21:49:22 2007 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Lee Storm(God Is The Healing Force)) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 16:49:22 -0500 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: What would have been different in your life if you never read Harry Potter? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000301c83c3f$b0fce8b0$67a4a8c0@FRODO> |> |Potioncat: |> |Good thing you did. I'm going to bring in TMTMNBN. |> |> [Lee]: |> Uh--what be that? |> | |Mike: |The Media That Must Not Be Named - i.e. The HP Movies [Lee]: Ah--tankya! :-) Cheers, Lee :-) From specialcritters at hotmail.com Tue Dec 11 22:18:51 2007 From: specialcritters at hotmail.com (Lee Truslow) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 17:18:51 -0500 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] anyone have some books they are wanting to get rid of? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Janet is EXCELLENT, and I've become hooked on Agatha Raisin, by MC Beaton, too. Don't forget Sue Grafton. There are a number of discussions at Amazon that I've enjoyed,such as: http://www.amazon.com/tag/mystery/forum/ref=cm_cd_ef_tft_tp?%5Fencoding=UTF8&cdForum=Fx2M2KAK12HD871&cdThread=Tx3VU2411JCMXFH&displayType=tagsDetail http://www.amazon.com/tag/mystery/forum/ref=cm_cd_ef_tft_tp?%5Fencoding=UTF8&cdForum=Fx2M2KAK12HD871&cdThread=Tx2923E7SZMQC3L&displayType=tagsDetail http://www.amazon.com/tag/mystery/forum/ref=cm_cd_dp_rt_tft_tp?%5Fencoding=UTF8&cdForum=Fx2M2KAK12HD871&cdThread=Tx14G3K0SXJ8F7W LOTS of good ideas in them!! _________________________________________________________________ Share life as it happens with the new Windows Live. http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_122007 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com Tue Dec 11 23:40:06 2007 From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com (HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com) Date: 11 Dec 2007 23:40:06 -0000 Subject: New file uploaded to HPFGU-OTChatter Message-ID: <1197416406.211.31272.w106@yahoogroups.com> Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the HPFGU-OTChatter group. File : /janet evanovich.rtf Uploaded by : jonathan_roberts2002 Description : Janet Evanovich You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/files/janet%20evanovich.rtf To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.htmlfiles Regards, jonathan_roberts2002 From bboyminn at yahoo.com Wed Dec 12 20:07:25 2007 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 20:07:25 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter in the Hood ...with Puppet Pals Message-ID: I don't know how many of you have see the Potter Puppets videos but they can be pretty funny. If you go to YouTube.com and search for 'Potter Puppets' you'll see a long list of them. The latest being 'Wizard Swears' - Wizard Swears - http://youtube.com/watch?v=TqTHmzMk0Cw Also, the are several independently made 'Harry Potter in the Hood' which are gansta rap videos featuring Harry Potter. I found this one to be rather funny - 'Harry Potter in the Hood'- http://youtube.com/watch?v=UuBm0dvIzcc You can find several variations of this video as well as parodies of it by searching 'Harry Potter Hood'. enjoy. Steve/bboyminn From bugeyedmonster2 at yahoo.com Thu Dec 13 02:35:42 2007 From: bugeyedmonster2 at yahoo.com (bugeyedmonster2) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 02:35:42 -0000 Subject: Of Evil Overlords and Heroes on Hopeless Quests.... Message-ID: Fans of B-movies should love this list... oh, and you can find the Evil Overlord Website at... http://www.eviloverlord.com/ And I'm posting this in hopes of stirring up lots of plot bunnies! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ If I Ever Go On A Hopeless Quest Against The EVIL Overlord... Okay, by now we all know the things not to do if we ever become the Evil Overlord. But what about the other side? Those who venture to overthrow the Evil Overlord a/so appear to be in need of some sensible advice... by Walt Freitag 1) I will not enter the Evil Overlord's stronghold disguised as a guard or henchman, unless I "intend" to be discovered and captured at the worst possible time. 2) If I absolutely must disguise myself as one of the Evil Overlord's guards or henchmen, I will not dispose of the real guard or henchman by knocking him unconscious and tying him to a towel rack - I will kill him. 3) When my intrepid party reaches the scenic over-look point where the vast array of the enemy's evil yet fascinating military- industrial facilities is spread out in an awesome tableau below us, we will not all crouch down and stare at it. We'll assume that the enemy's border guards also enjoy the view from that vantage point, and get our buns out of there pronto. 4) I will not trust the closest friend and comrade-in-arms of my heroically deceased father. 5) I will not trust my heroically deceased father. The chances of his being really heroic and really deceased and really my father are remote. 6) Before embarking on the quest, I will suggest to the Council of Ancient and All Knowing Yet Oddly Powerless Beings that instead of hiking hundreds of leagues on foot into the Dark Land and being airlifted out by the Great Wind Lords, we do it the other way around. 7) As soon as the Evil Overlord's threat becomes apparent I will hunt down and kill the bully who tormented me as a child, before he has a chance to either (a) become the Evil Overlord's trusted lieutenant or (b) gain my trust, join my cause, and then betray me. 8) I will not make wisecracks to my torturers. They're just trying to do their job, and I'm secure enough in my heroism not to have to prove it by withstanding the extra-severe torture they reserve for those who piss them off. 9) If any of my compatriots begins to tell me about his loved ones back home, or his plans for an idyllic future career, I will slap him until he shuts up. This may not save his life, but what kind of hero would I be if I didn't at least try? 10) If the evil minions are attempting to kidnap my girlfriend, I will not send her into hiding with her kindly old grandfather in his remote mountain cabin. I'll send her into hiding in an apartment in Brooklyn. 11) If my dead mentor appears as a glowing apparition and tells me what to do, I won't argue with him. 12) If my sidekick, who I last saw being dragged away by Legions of Terror, rejoins me unexpectedly, seeming perfectly unscathed except for a slight halt in his speech and a glassy-eyed look, I will not congratulate him on his lucky escape. I will lie about which direction I intend to proceed, then tell him to stay here and cut off pursuit. 13) After escaping in any vehicle that's been parked in the Evil Overlord's territory for more than ten minutes, I will not proceed to my allies' secret sanctuary until I've changed vehicles, or found and disabled the homing device. 14) After obtaining a glowing jeweled rune-inscribed dagger from an ancient tomb that the ghost of the greatest wizard of the previous age led me to in a vision, I will not wait until all my other weapons have failed, and half my colleagues have been devoured, before trying it out against the fearsome monster's seemingly-invulnerable hide. 15) After I journey across the Desert of Despair, past the River of Blood, and through the Forest of Darkness to seek the counsel of the Ancient Ones, I will occasionally listen to their counsel. 16) Should I succeed in my quest, I will not agree to become High King over any kingdom rude enough to throw me a surprise coronation. 17) Should I succeed in my quest, I will not jeopardize my newly established heroic image. I will not engage in celebratory sex with the heroine without first making sure we are not under surveillance. Also, my comrades and I will not, under any circumstances whatsoever, pose in a row and applaud ourselves. 18) When the Evil Overlord says, "Surely you don't want to be responsible for any more innocent lives?" I will not reluctantly drop the Sword Of Fate to the floor. Instead, I will point out that I'm not the one slowly lowering the adorable elf child into the pit of boiling lava, He is. If he presses the issue, I'll further assert that he was lowering elf children into boiling lava long before I arrived and, should my quest to destroy him fail, would continue doing so long after I'm gone, so I'd rather keep the Sword Of Fate for myself, thank you very much. 19) Comical yet sinister, pathetic yet greedy, cowardly yet cunning individuals will not be permitted to join or assist the quest. Although they always redeem themselves in the end, their acts of redemption are rarely worth the three or four betrayals they require to work themselves up to it, 20) If my girlfriend is in clear imminent danger of becoming the next designated Sacrificial Virgin, I'd at least suggest the obvious solution, even if it gets me slapped. 21) I will consider darkness, mist, dense forest, eerie rock formations, labyrinthine corridors, and subtle signs of stealthy pursuit by unseen foes to be good reason to avoid splitting my questing party up, rather than as golden opportunities to do so. 22) When my sidekick and I back away from each other with weapons drawn, heading in opposite directions around a pillar, we will anticipate the inevitability, of meeting again on the far side of the pillar. 23) If my most powerful weapons operate only when I'm in a particularly confident self-assured frame of mind, then before venturing one step into the Evil Overlord's Domain, I will see a competent psychiatrist to resolve any feelings of guilt, self-doubt, inadequacy, traumatic stress, or other miscellaneous angst I might be afflicted with. If that's not feasible, I will pop Prozac like it was candy. 24) I will maintain a realistic idea of the capabilities of each member of my quest. Individuals whose main benefit to the effort is comic relief will not be assigned to guard objects whose loss or theft could mean the end of the world. On the other hand, individuals with tactically invaluable skills, such as the ability to sense the approach of enemies or override the automatic systems of an enemy installation, will not be treated as comic relief no matter how cute they are. 25) When I trick the humbling henchmen into stealing the box that once contained the Artifact of Power after I've removed the artifact from it, I will not put a cute little note reading "Fooled ya!" inside. This is rude. A kilo of C-4 and a detonator is more appropriate to the occasion. 26) I will never accept a magical power token from a mentor without inquiring, "Does this really do any-thing, or is it just a psychological ploy to get me to release the mysterious power I have within myself. Let's sort this out now, so I won't have to do it sometime when there's only five seconds left to save the day" 27) Unless my name is Jackie Chan, after disabling three attackers, one wielding a pistol, one a machine gun, and one a stick, I will not pick up the stick. 28) Should my strategic brilliance impress the Evil Overlord to the point where he offers to make me his commander-in-chief and heir, ill but join his cause, I will agree immediately. Neither of us may be sincere, but it's easier to get to the self-destruct button from the Command Center than from the Execution Chamber. 29) If I succeed in reaching my girlfriend during a rescue mission deep in the Evil Overlord's stronghold, we will not linger to kiss, sob in relief or quiz one another about how we got there or why we're wearing such strange clothing. We will depart immediately. 30) If the Evil Overlord's beautiful but evil consort or daughter attempts to seduce me in the dungeon or torture chamber, I will not respond by informing her what sort of unpleasant animal I'd rather touch than her. My mission is too important to waste such a valuable tactical opportunity on petty self-indulgence. 31) When I crawl out of my cell through the large air duct that opens into it, I will not make it easy for the guards to figure out how I escaped by carelessly leaving the flimsy cover open behind me. Replacing the cover will delay pursuit, and will also avoid ruining things for future prisoners who may want to escape just as much as I do. 32) Shooting the Evil Overlord in the back would not make me just as evil as he is. 33) Obtaining vital information by torturing the Evil Overlord's captured henchman would not make me just as evil as he is. 34) Letting the Evil Overlord fall to his death would not make me just as evil as he is. Things I'll never say "Nothing can go wrong now." "What else could possibly go wrong?" "Things couldnt possibly get any worse." "Come on, guys, we're home free!" "Of course it's a trap, hut what choice have we got?" "Scooby, stop sniffing around that peculiar stone idol and help us find a way out of here." From ktgoldstein at gmail.com Thu Dec 13 16:31:48 2007 From: ktgoldstein at gmail.com (kennymod) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 16:31:48 -0000 Subject: Weller and OOTP Message-ID: On Youtube, I saw a Doctor Who video set to Weller You Do Something to Me, and thought HP? Sure enough... http://www.youtube.com/results? search_query=paul+weller+and+harry+potter DA set to the Style Council's Walls Come Tumbling Down, if you have not seen the movie, I guess its a spoiler, they did a good job of syncing the deut Weller and DC Lee over video of Harry and Hermione. From Schlobin at aol.com Fri Dec 14 21:27:03 2007 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 21:27:03 -0000 Subject: tales of beedle the bard Message-ID: So, who else has been over to Amazon to look at the book cover? Susan From zanooda2 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 14 22:27:01 2007 From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 22:27:01 -0000 Subject: tales of beedle the bard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "susanmcgee48176" wrote: > So, who else has been over to Amazon to look at the book cover? I'm more interested in the contents - knowing the contents of the tales will make it much easier to translate their titles :-). Amazon only published the first tale's ("The Wizard and the Hopping Pot") review so far. I'm waiting for "The Fountain of Fair Fortune" and "Babbity Rabbity and her Cackling Stump" reviews - these titles are the most difficult to translate ... zanooda From tonks_op at yahoo.com Sat Dec 15 05:42:27 2007 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2007 05:42:27 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter in the Hood ...with Puppet Pals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > I don't know how many of you have see the Potter Puppets videos > but they can be pretty funny. If you go to YouTube.com and > search for 'Potter Puppets' you'll see a long list of them. > > The latest being 'Wizard Swears' - > > Wizard Swears - > http://youtube.com/watch?v=TqTHmzMk0Cw > > Also, the are several independently made 'Harry Potter in > the Hood' which are gansta rap videos featuring Harry > Potter. I found this one to be rather funny - > > 'Harry Potter in the Hood'- > http://youtube.com/watch?v=UuBm0dvIzcc > Tonks: I really don't care for humor that is a bit off color. And even Harry Potter can't change my mind about Rap- crap... Worse music ever invented. I sort of like this one by the Puppets: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tx1XIm6q4r4&NR=1 But I don't know why DD has to always take off his clothes. Go ahead, call me a prude. Tonks_op From tonks_op at yahoo.com Sat Dec 15 06:24:55 2007 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2007 06:24:55 -0000 Subject: Of Evil Overlords and Heroes on Hopeless Quests.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "bugeyedmonster2" wrote: > > Fans of B-movies should love this list... oh, and you can find the > Evil Overlord Website at... http://www.eviloverlord.com/ > > And I'm posting this in hopes of stirring up lots of plot bunnies! > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > If I Ever Go On A Hopeless Quest Against The EVIL > Overlord... > > Okay, by now we all know the things not to do if we ever become the > Evil Overlord. But what about the other side? Those who venture to > overthrow the Evil Overlord a/so appear to be in need of some sensible > advice... by Walt Freitag Tonks: lol. Loved it!! Thanks for the link and the above too. ;-) LV should have read this first. Tonks_op From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat Dec 15 19:52:37 2007 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2007 19:52:37 -0000 Subject: tales of beedle the bard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Susan: > So, who else has been over to Amazon to look at the book cover? > Pippin: Me! Me! There are now two summaries also. You do realize, this is just fan fiction waiting to happen. It'll be fascinating to see what people come up with. With no 'canon' version, these tales will exist only in the retelling, just like traditional fairy tales. What fun! Pippin From catlady at wicca.net Sat Dec 15 22:02:25 2007 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2007 22:02:25 -0000 Subject: Of Evil Overlords and Heroes on Hopeless Quests.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "bugeyedmonster2" wrote: > > If I Ever Go On A Hopeless Quest Against The EVIL Overlord... > 3) When my intrepid party reaches the scenic over-look point where > the vast array of the enemy's evil yet fascinating military- > industrial facilities is spread out in an awesome tableau below us, > we will not all crouch down and stare at it. We'll assume that the > enemy's border guards also enjoy the view from that vantage point, > and get our buns out of there pronto. But the movie director will insert that scene anyway, because it looks so good (to the audience) on the big screen. > 4) I will not trust the closest friend and comrade-in-arms of my > heroically deceased father. Sirius Black? > > 10) If the evil minions are attempting to kidnap my girlfriend, I > will not send her into hiding with her kindly old grandfather in his > remote mountain cabin. I'll send her into hiding in an apartment in > Brooklyn. What if she can't get a visa to enter USA? > 17) Should I succeed in my quest, I will not jeopardize my newly > established heroic image. I will not engage in celebratory sex with > the heroine without first making sure we are not under surveillance. Unless it's heroic sex... > Also, my comrades and I will not, under any circumstances > whatsoever, pose in a row and applaud ourselves. Not even for the cover of PEOPLE magazine? I gather that naive heroes, inexperienced in the ways of public relations and marketing, often find this stuff being done to them without much comprehension of how did it happen. > 29) If I succeed in reaching my girlfriend during a rescue mission > deep in the Evil Overlord's stronghold, we will not linger to kiss, > sob in relief or quiz one another about how we got there or why > we're wearing such strange clothing. We will depart immediately. The rescuer can't enforce that decision unilaterally. > 30) If the Evil Overlord's beautiful but evil consort or daughter > attempts to seduce me in the dungeon or torture chamber, I will not > respond by informing her what sort of unpleasant animal I'd rather > touch than her. My mission is too important to waste such a valuable > tactical opportunity on petty self-indulgence. Write the story so the hero can't resist such a physically desirable bit of ... did the list say "crumpet"? ... or thinks he can win her over to assist him, and it turns out she is loyal to the father or husband who sent her to get the hero into a position where he can be killed because he isn't wearing his magic armor, or he can be manacled and tortured because he can't put his hand on his undefeatable switchblade fast enough. > 33) Obtaining vital information by torturing the Evil Overlord's > captured henchman would not make me just as evil as he is. But it would discourage other EO henchmen from selling out to you. From catlady at wicca.net Sat Dec 15 22:46:17 2007 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2007 22:46:17 -0000 Subject: tales of beedle the bard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > > Susan: > > So, who else has been over to Amazon to look at the book cover? > > Pippin: > Me! Me! There are now two summaries also. There are now three summaries. I've bookmarked the site. The theme drawing at the top of Amazon's page, and on Sotheby's glass door in a photo, the heart, skull, and rose, irresistibly reminds me of a Grateful Dead album cover. > You do realize, this is just fan fiction waiting to happen. > It'll be fascinating to see what people come up with. With no > 'canon' version, these tales will exist only in the retelling, > just like traditional fairy tales. Eventually it will be published, and then there will be a 'canon' version. I acknowledge that may not be until after Rowling's death, and she is younger than many of us, and perhaps Harry Potter fandom will no longer exist. I hope it is much sooner than that. In general, fairy tales are written in a way much difference from 'good writing', 'good writing' being what much fanfic writers are emulating. I don't mean literary writing; I mean all that stuff that makes Evangeline Walton's Mabinogion so very much longer than Lady Caroline Guest's Mabinogion: what the characters are thinking and feeling and wanting and expecting rather than a simple list of their actions, and how events happened rather than simply stating that they did happen. The 'show, don't tell' cliche. This leads both to modern writers writing novels and novellas giving their take on a traditional fairy tale, and to modern experienced readers enjoying the 'elegant simplicity' of a fairy tale for a change, like visiting a museum gallery of a traditional Japanese tea-ceremony house. I don't know from the Amazon reviews whether these tales are written like fairy tales or like 'good writing'. Eventually it should be published as photo-fascimile pages, with the drawings and with the handwriting doing the things that the Amazon reviews mention, but the cover doesn't have to have silver and gems, nor even real leather, on it. It could be a color photo of her cover or it could be something else. Speaking of gems, I finally saw one in the last photo on the third page of photos --- they didn't show on all the other pictures of the cover. Hardcover books used to be covered with woven cloth. I'm having these weird thoughts about whether a (the) book could be covered with cloth that was specially woven with a color pattern. All the old cloth book covers that I've particularly looked at were woven in the simple weave where both warp and weft threads show, like gingham. They might have to change that in order to use a nice pattern... From tonyaminton at gmail.com Sat Dec 15 22:55:46 2007 From: tonyaminton at gmail.com (Tonya Minton) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2007 16:55:46 -0600 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: tales of beedle the bard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: HI all, Could someone post a link please?? Thank you, Tonya [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gav_fiji at yahoo.com Sat Dec 15 23:07:26 2007 From: gav_fiji at yahoo.com (Goddlefrood) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2007 23:07:26 -0000 Subject: tales of beedle the bard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Tonya: > Could someone post a link please?? Goddlefrood: It's pretty long, and can be linked from amazon.com's home page, here it is: http://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.html/ref=amb_link_6059972_2/105- 9941134-8501225? ie=UTF8&docId=1000179911&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center- 0&pf_rd_r=1ZQVQ7CX08JJT0K0ZPZS&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=340739801&pf_rd_i=507 846 From tonyaminton at gmail.com Sat Dec 15 23:15:38 2007 From: tonyaminton at gmail.com (Tonya Minton) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2007 17:15:38 -0600 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: tales of beedle the bard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: OMG THANK YOU!! Tonya [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Schlobin at aol.com Sun Dec 16 05:02:56 2007 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 05:02:56 -0000 Subject: tales of beedle the bard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Babbity Rabbity review is now up! Wow, what a great gift...I now no longer begrude all the thousands of dollars I've spent at Amazon.com! I'm really happy that they bought the book and are at least giving us summaries of the stories! Susan From catlady at wicca.net Sun Dec 16 05:06:24 2007 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 05:06:24 -0000 Subject: tales of beedle the bard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "susanmcgee48176" wrote: > > Babbity Rabbity review is now up! > > Wow, what a great gift...I now no longer begrude all the thousands of > dollars I've spent at Amazon.com! I'm really happy that they bought > the book and are at least giving us summaries of the stories! Yes, but the person who was hoping that Babbity Rabbity and Her Cackling Stump was about rabbit stomping on the ground will be disappointed. From kempermentor at yahoo.com Sun Dec 16 08:00:14 2007 From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kemper mentor) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 00:00:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: tales of beedle the bard Message-ID: <118226.82237.qm@web90402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> > Tonya: > Could someone post a link please?? Goddlefrood: It's pretty long, and can be linked from amazon.com's home page, here it is: ...snipped super long link... Kemper now: Here's a shorter link: www.amazon.com/beedlebard ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From jonathan_roberts2002 at yahoo.com Sun Dec 16 08:03:10 2007 From: jonathan_roberts2002 at yahoo.com (Jonathan Roberts) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 08:03:10 -0000 Subject: Wanted: Any Janet Evanovich Books or James Patterson Books Message-ID: Wanted: Any Janet Evanovich, James Patterson, or any mystery books. I love reading and Im on a fixed income and was wandering if someone has any I can have. Im from Oklahoma, so you would have to ship here. I dont even have wheels to get to a library. My health these days is not that good and I spend alot of time in bed reading. If someone can send me some books they no longer need. That would mean lots! I hope you have a Merry Christmas. Jonathan From jo.sturgess at btopenworld.com Sun Dec 16 12:54:19 2007 From: jo.sturgess at btopenworld.com (mooseming) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 12:54:19 -0000 Subject: Wanted: Any Janet Evanovich Books or James Patterson Books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan Roberts" wrote: > > Wanted: Any Janet Evanovich, James Patterson, or any mystery books. I > love reading and Im on a fixed income and was wandering if someone has > any I can have. Im from Oklahoma, so you would have to ship here. I > dont even have wheels to get to a library. My health these days is not > that good and I spend alot of time in bed reading. If someone can send > me some books they no longer need. That would mean lots! I hope you > have a Merry Christmas. > > Jonathan > Hi Jonathan I'm in Dublin so shipping books would be quite expensive! However I can recommend the freecycle group, there should be one in your area. www.freecycle.org/group/US/Oklahoma Good luck. Jo From bboyminn at yahoo.com Sun Dec 16 18:35:43 2007 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 18:35:43 -0000 Subject: tales of beedle the bard - Link to Summaries In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- "Tonya Minton" wrote: > > HI all, > > Could someone post a link please?? > > Thank you, > Tonya > bboyminn: A shortcut link to the summaries and photos of Beedle the Bard can be found here - http://www.amazon.com/beedlebard/ which will take you to this link - http://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.html?docId=1000179911 They seem like great stories, I hope to someday be able to actually read them. Steve/Bboyminn From heidi8 at gmail.com Mon Dec 17 15:09:09 2007 From: heidi8 at gmail.com (Heidi Tandy) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 10:09:09 -0500 Subject: My first HP fanvid Message-ID: <5913e6f80712170709r18cf688buf49ee16cd8aa06e2@mail.gmail.com> Despite the fact that I started my "media" fandom experience in HP pushing eight years ago, I've never made an HP fanvid - I've done HP fanfic and even a few icons, but all the vidding I've done so far has been for Heroes and Doctor Who and Supernatural. But this weekend, I took my first leap into HP fanvidding and made this: http://heidi8.livejournal.com/854843.html Title: All I Want for Christmas Is You Performed by: My Chemical Romance Fandom: Harry Potter Rating: PG-13 for violence Available at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ML4RouQM3XQ and http://www.megaupload.com/?d=TAVUUXRF Summary: All Voldemort wants for Christmas is Harry Potter. But a few other wizards and witches have the same idea. Hope you enjoy it! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From s_ings at yahoo.com Tue Dec 18 16:36:39 2007 From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 16:36:39 -0000 Subject: Convention Alley 2008 Call for Papers Message-ID: Call for Papers This international conference envisions bringing the Harry Potter fandom together in the beautiful city of Ottawa to discuss J.K. Rowling's novels with one another and with literary scholars. In addition to keynote speakers and programming sessions presented by fans and professionals, the convention will feature directed discussion groups as well as informal opportunities for fans and scholars to get to know one another and to enjoy the city of Ottawa. The Canadian Programming Committee seeks proposals for presentations, moderated panels and workshops on any topic relating to the Harry Potter novels and/or their fan community. We strongly encourage members of the fandom community to participate, and also welcome submissions by members of the professional and academic communities. While potential topics and suggested submissions are noted below to get your creative juices flowing, we are interested in any and all ideas - please do not feel limited by the potential topic areas or by the examples of potential submissions! Presenters should be at least 18 years old, as the conference programming is intended for adults. However, participants are encouraged to bring their families and many of the informal events will be open to family members. Programming Sessions Potential programming session topics include, but are not limited to, the following areas: Characters in the Harry Potter series. Thanks to the myriad of characters created by Rowling, there are innumerable opportunities for presentations in this area. A submission might propose comparing Draco Malfoy as he is portrayed in Rowling's canon vs. Malfoy as he is known in fanfiction or a look at Severus Snape, probably Rowling's most debated character. Mythology in the Harry Potter series. Rowling draws heavily from mythology in the series, from the three-headed dog Fluffy (based on Cerberus who guarded the Underworld in Greek mythology) to names such as "Argus" and "Narcissa". A submission might highlight the characters that are based on mythology, explain their mythological basis and provide a rationale for why Rowling chose to link those characters with these specific myths. Education in the Harry Potter universe. We invite teachers (and administrators) in the fandom to compare their jobs to the ones held by their analogs in the Harry Potter novels. Possible topics include detailed analyses of Rowling's views on the state's role in education, and how the teachers in Rowling's universe would fare in the "real world". Symbolism in the Harry Potter series. Proposals might explore how Rowling uses symbols and metaphors to express her views and the goals of the series. For example, submissions might analyze metaphors of death ("beyond the veil") or symbols of Christ (the stag, the phoenix, Harry's repeated resurrections). Fandom Influences in the Harry Potter series. A proposal in this area might review Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire and Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix to identify instances where Rowling may have responded to popular questions from the fandom (e.g., how to pronounce "Hermione"). Understanding and Exploring British Terms in the Harry Potter novels. For non-British readers, some of Rowling's British expressions and terms are, well - foreign! A submission in this area might propose a roundtable discussion run by British fans that would entertain audience questions on dialects and British terms in the novels. Theories Past and Present. Is your theory still valid now that canon is closed or has it been blown out of the water? Are there still topics open to speculation? What would you have done? Are there parts of the story that left you wondering? Parts of the story left unresolved? What would you have changed, added or removed? How would those have benefited the storyline? The Programming Committee cannot stress enough that these topic areas are merely suggestions. They should not, therefore, be interpreted in any way as limitations on the subject matter of potential proposals. Proposals on any and all facets of the Harry Potter fandom are welcome and encouraged. The Committee only requests that your proposal be respectful of the interests and views of others in the fandom. Time Blocks Proposals should specify the estimated amount of time needed for presentation and discussion. Programming sessions will be held on Friday, June 20, and Saturday, June 21. Our goal is to make all of the programming sessions as interactive as possible. Accordingly, for individual presentations, we suggest a planned presentation of between 30-45 minutes, followed by a 30-minute audience participation session. This is a guideline, however ? presenters are welcome to propose other ideas for encouraging audience participation. Strictly lecture-based presentations are discouraged, however. Accordingly, proposals must include an outline for how audience participation will be solicited. The suggested time period for moderated panels and workshops is between one hour and 90 minutes. As with the individual presentations, proposals for moderated panels should include a 30- minute audience participation session. A volunteer staff member will be present at each session to introduce the presenter, assist with any technical difficulties and facilitate the audience participation component. Proposal Submissions Proposals submitted via regular mail must be postmarked no later than: February 15, 2008. Proposals submitted electronically must be received by: February 28, 2008. Proposals may take the form of a 500 word abstract or a completed conference paper (approximately 5-7 pages). Any attachments must be in Microsoft Word to be readable. Proposals should be sent via e-mail (preferred) or regular mail in advance of the submission deadline to the following: E-Mail submission: convention_alley at yahoo.ca. Please use "Ottawa 2008 Programming Submission" in the subject line. You may also mail your proposals to: Convention Alley Box 36004 1106 Wellington Street Ottawa, ON K1Y 4V3 Canada Proposal Evaluation Proposals will be evaluated based on an assessment of the level of interest conference participants will have in the topic area and the originality of the ideas presented, as well as the use of correct spelling and grammar. Notification and Submission of Final Papers We plan to notify presenters whose proposals are selected for presentation at the convention during the week of week of March 17, 2008. We regret that, in order to keep conference fees as low as possible, we are unable to fund presenters' registration, hotel and/or travel costs, or provide any other form of remuneration. Presenters will need to register for the conference at their own expense when they confirm that they will present (confirmations must be postmarked or e-mailed by March 31, 2008). Presenters must submit their final completed paper in an electronic format (either as a text file or in Word) to the above e-mail address by April 30, 2008 (preferred) or by regular mail to the above address by April 15, 2008. Completed papers sent by regular mail must be submitted on a disk. All submissions will be edited for consistency of style, acronym use, and correct punctuation and grammar. Guidelines to ensure uniform style in the published proceedings will be provided to each successful presenter when selection notifications are issued. No changes will be made to submitted text without the prior approval of the author. From americanghosttour at yahoo.com Tue Dec 18 17:33:22 2007 From: americanghosttour at yahoo.com (americanghosttour) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 17:33:22 -0000 Subject: Convention Alley 2008 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Sheryll Townsend" wrote: > > Call for Papers > > This international conference envisions bringing the Harry Potter > fandom together in the beautiful city of Ottawa to discuss J.K. > Rowling's novels with one another and with literary scholars. In > addition to keynote speakers and programming sessions presented by > fans and professionals, the convention will feature directed > discussion groups as well as informal opportunities for fans and > scholars to get to know one another and to enjoy the city of Ottawa. This sounds very interesting, but is there anything like it on the East Coast such as NYC or Florida? That would be a lot easier for me to get to. MINA www.ExtraNiceDeals.com From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 18 21:10:57 2007 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 21:10:57 -0000 Subject: Our tastes in entertainment ( MOVED FROM MAIN) Message-ID: CJ: Yeah, you're right. Give JKR a break -- it's just a story, for Pete's sake. But I tend to be of the opinion that our tastes in entertainment are clues to who we are as individuals. Alla: Hmm, when I read this statement by CJ, my first thought was to reply in complete disagreement, since for the most part I am not buying the idea that our tastes in entertainment tell other people who we are as individuals, but then I started to think about it a bit more. So, as I said, I am not agreeing with it for the most part. The most obvious example to me always was what if the reader likes Voldemort. Would one really make a conclusion that this reader has maniacal tendencies and wants to kill minorities and rule the world? Or maybe the conclusion would be much simpler ? that reader enjoys reading about villains for the fun of it? That would be my conclusion anyways. But then I was thinking maybe others are buying it and wanted to ask sort of related question. Imagine that you just met somebody for the first time socially ? at the party or anywhere else. This person tells you that she loves Harry Potter books. Would this tell you anything about this person? To me the answer is no, not really. I probably would not even say that this person likes to read based on the fact that she likes HP books, because to me I need to hear that person reads other books besides HP to call her a reader. I mean I am sure I mentioned it before, but on average I read probably ten twelve books every month. In my mind to call someone a reader, the person needs to read at least couple new books every month or so, I think. I mean, I would not even be able to make a judgment that this person likes reading fantasy books based on the fact that she likes HP books alone, because I need to know that she read some other books of this genre. We can also twist this question around and ask would you be able to say about the person if anything, if the only thing you know about this person is that she does not like HP books? Would you say that this person is not a reader in general or just does not like fantasy books? I know at least two examples where such statement would be false, period, so I cannot make this judgment either. My brother and SIL are both avid readers and they both read many books that are far more complex than HP. My SIL dutifully read first four books of HP and found them boring. My brother read PS and did not want to read any more. Would you be able to say anything about the person based on what specific things about HP this person likes? I know at least one example where if you do so, you would be sadly mistaken as well. And that would be yours truly. I do not hate people and do not wish ill upon them. (Well, I hate one person in RL, but please take me upon my word, there is a really good reason for that, very far from trivial and I do not wish any ill upon this person now either. I dislike couple other people, but this is really far from hate. I am just trying to minimize communication with those people, that's it). As some know I hate Snape very much, but the only thing that this tells you about me is just that ? I hate Snape. So, I am not sure if I would even make judgment about the person if I know what characters she likes and/ or what outcomes she wanted to see in the books. I mean, like my tastes in books are SO diverse. You name it, I probably read at least something from this genre. I read contemporary fiction, I read fantasy, I read mystery, I read romances, I read sci/fi, I read historical fiction, I read poetry, I will read pretty much ANYTHING as long as I cannot put the book down. Oh, and of course I read nonfiction ? mostly history and literary criticism. It will be really hard for somebody to make any judgment about me as individual based on what I read. I guess you could say that my tastes are very diverse, but that is pretty much it. Thoughts? Alla From alexisnguyen at gmail.com Tue Dec 18 21:48:28 2007 From: alexisnguyen at gmail.com (P. Alexis Nguyen) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 16:48:28 -0500 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Our tastes in entertainment ( MOVED FROM MAIN) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Alla: > Hmm, when I read this statement by CJ, my first thought was to reply > in complete disagreement, since for the most part I am not buying the > idea that our tastes in entertainment tell other people who we are as > individuals, but then I started to think about it a bit more. >>>SNIP<<< > I mean, like my tastes in books are SO diverse. You name it, I > probably read at least something from this genre. I read contemporary > fiction, I read fantasy, I read mystery, I read romances, I read > sci/fi, I read historical fiction, I read poetry, I will read pretty > much ANYTHING as long as I cannot put the book down. >>>SNIP<<< Ali: I didn't really know where to snip, so I just took a few sections. I tend to agree with you. What a person reads mostly just indicates what they read. If one must form an opinion on someone based on their readings, then base it on content - did they like the villain or hero? Wherefore? Using the example given, the hating of Snape may not be very telling, but the reason for this dislike is marginally more insightful. There are so many caveats to tack onto this, though. Does the reason said person doesn't like Snape apply to his "real" world view or just a fantasy world view? Is the dislike of Snape influenced by emotional baggage and therefore is mostly a "knee jerk" reaction? So many caveats. I would also agree with the "liking HP doesn't necessarily equate with liking reading/fantasy/etc" idea - I can think of one friend immediately who this applies to (really, she doesn't even like to read, much less read fantasy, though she is looking, now, to read more books). The sentiment is equally applicable regardless of what you replace HP with - if you like Austen, I wouldn't say that you have a great love of literature and English; if you like Dan Brown, I wouldn't dismiss it as you liking poor written fiction (my opinion of Dan Brown's writing); if you like Star Trek, I wouldn't dismiss you as socially incompetent. Of course, this comes from someone whose bookshelves give equal space, theoretically, to Michio Kaku as Julia Quinn (quantum physicist & romance novelist, respectively) and who spent a majority of the college years being snubbed (with a very light hand) by literary folks [for my love of romance novels]. I guess, really, what I was trying to say, and trying to not make a one-liner, is I agree. ~Ali From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 18 22:02:07 2007 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 22:02:07 -0000 Subject: Our tastes in entertainment ( MOVED FROM MAIN) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ali: I didn't really know where to snip, so I just took a few sections. I tend to agree with you. What a person reads mostly just indicates what they read. If one must form an opinion on someone based on their readings, then base it on content - did they like the villain or hero? Wherefore? Using the example given, the hating of Snape may not be very telling, but the reason for this dislike is marginally more insightful. There are so many caveats to tack onto this, though. Does the reason said person doesn't like Snape apply to his "real" world view or just a fantasy world view? Is the dislike of Snape influenced by emotional baggage and therefore is mostly a "knee jerk" reaction? So many caveats. Alla: Well, sure if you go into explanations and RL comparisons, etc, you are talking about RL staff and other people can make at least some sort of judgment about who you are IMO, but not if you are saying "I hate Snape" or "I hate Harry" and leave it at that. I am saying that IF you are making some sort of RL connection, then it is sort of easier, but still so many caveats indeed. I mean, I learned from reading some bizarre things about people on Internet that people can make up stuff about themselves, who they are, etc, but I always tend to take people upon their word, so if person talks about certain staff in their RL, their views, etc, I would take it on faith, unless I may suspect a joke, hehe. From s_ings at yahoo.com Tue Dec 18 21:24:55 2007 From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 16:24:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Convention Alley 2008 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <442177.73126.qm@web63405.mail.re1.yahoo.com> > > Call for Papers > > > > This international conference envisions bringing > the Harry Potter > > fandom together in the beautiful city of Ottawa to > discuss J.K. > > Rowling's novels with one another and with > literary scholars. In > > addition to keynote speakers and programming > sessions presented by > > fans and professionals, the convention will > feature directed > > discussion groups as well as informal > opportunities for fans and > > scholars to get to know one another and to enjoy > the city of Ottawa. > > MINA: > > This sounds very interesting, but is there anything > like it > on the East Coast such as NYC or Florida? That would > be a > lot easier for me to get to. > Sheryll: There are other Harry Potter conferences next summer, two of which take place in the US. Portus takes place in Dallas from July 10-13 and Terminus is in Chicago from August 7-11. If Canada is too far, I'm guessing Accio in Oxford, England is out of the question for you. :) Websites for the various conferences are: Convention Alley: http://conventionalley2008.org/ Portus: http://hp2008.org/ Accio: http://www.accio.org.uk/ Terminus: http://www.terminus2008.org/ I wish I could afford to go to all of them! As it is now, I'll be at Terminus and, of course, Convention Alley. The next event I know of in Florida is Infinitus 2010 which will take place in Orlando. Hope that helps a bit. Sheryll Join the fun at Convention Alley 2008 From leekaiwen at yahoo.com Wed Dec 19 00:34:23 2007 From: leekaiwen at yahoo.com (Lee Kaiwen) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 08:34:23 +0800 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: tales of beedle the bard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4768670F.6080803@yahoo.com> OK ... wow ... I'm jealous. Who cares about the content -- that is one impressive piece of craftsmanship. I've some experience in bookbinding and bookmaking, so I've seen a lot of amateurish efforts. I'd love to know who the craftsman was. CJ From Schlobin at aol.com Wed Dec 19 04:04:34 2007 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 04:04:34 -0000 Subject: leaky podcast Message-ID: Whoa! Who else listened to that? From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 19 04:45:04 2007 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 04:45:04 -0000 Subject: leaky podcast In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "susanmcgee48176" wrote: > > Whoa! Who else listened to that? > Alla: Details, please, please, PULLLEASE :) Cannot wait for transcript. From bboyminn at yahoo.com Wed Dec 19 17:37:34 2007 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 17:37:34 -0000 Subject: leaky podcast In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- "dumbledore11214" wrote: > > --- "susanmcgee48176" wrote: > > > > Whoa! Who else listened to that? > > > > > Alla: > > Details, please, please, PULLLEASE :) > > Cannot wait for transcript. > bboyminn: Yes, I listened to it; it was very informative, but fair warning to those who freaked out when she said Dumbledore was gay, don't listen if you don't want to her. At one point, JKR even says of a point she made that fans are free to disagree. The file is only about 22mb (Pottercast #130), which I realize isn't that small, but you don't need iTunes to hear it, Quicktime or Windows Media Player will play the MP3 file just fine as will many common music players. They touch on Horcuxes, 'Ships', Dumbledore and more, and this is only the first half. Next week they are going to make available the second half in a new Pottercast. I found it interesting and enjoyable because you really get to see JKR's playful personality shine through. Steve/bboyminn From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 19 21:00:07 2007 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 21:00:07 -0000 Subject: leaky podcast In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > bboyminn: > > Yes, I listened to it; it was very informative, but fair > warning to those who freaked out when she said Dumbledore > was gay, don't listen if you don't want to her. Alla: Um, not me LOL. Too bad I cannot listen to it, sigh, have to wait for transcript. I am sooo nervous about installing new things on my computer. > At one point, JKR even says of a point she made that fans > are free to disagree. Alla: I feel bad that she even felt a need to make a statement like that. To me it was always - DUH. Of course we can disagree and I certainly disagree with her on some of the statements she made or just ignore them. I never understood why it is so hard to do that. ( Not trying to start a fight or anything, but it is how I honestly feel. It was always so easy for me to do and it is hard for me to see how it is not so easy for all people). I mean, I am happily ignoring her statement about Harry being a better godfather than Sirius, because I am yet to see more apple and oranges comparison. I threw out of my mental window the statement of Lily's sacrifice being somehow more significant than James'. I really really do not buy " we should love DD thing", etc. I mean, I guess I understand how you cannot completely forget what she says, like even though I am disagreeing or ignoring those statements, I still remember that she said them. BUT to me it is like they exist in another dimension, they do not cloud the mental picture of canon I have in my head, if that makes sense. If I feel her interview statement is consistent with what's in the book and what's in my head, I add it, if not, I am not, hehe. Steve: > I found it interesting and enjoyable because you really get > to see JKR's playful personality shine through. Alla: I know, I enjoy listening to her talk as well. From bboyminn at yahoo.com Wed Dec 19 21:35:44 2007 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 21:35:44 -0000 Subject: leaky podcast In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- "dumbledore11214" wrote: > > > bboyminn: > > > > Yes, I listened to it; it was very informative, but fair > > warning to those who freaked out when she said Dumbledore > > was gay, don't listen if you don't want to her. > > Alla: > > Um, not me LOL. Too bad I cannot listen to it, sigh, have > to wait for transcript. I am sooo nervous about installing > new things on my computer. > bboyminn: You don't have to install anything. It is unthinkable that, regardless of what computer you have (Win, Mac, Linux), it doesn't already have some type of MP3 play on it. Just download and save the file (remember where you saved it) double click on the file and it should play. If you have a Windows computer, it comes with Windows Media Player. That should do just fine. One small thing if you do decide to download it. It is likely to default to the filename 'redirect.mp3', I suggest changing it to 'Pottercast#130-JKR.mp3'. Either way, the transcript should be available soon. Steve/bboyminn From tonks_op at yahoo.com Thu Dec 20 08:25:39 2007 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 08:25:39 -0000 Subject: leaky podcast In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > --- "dumbledore11214" wrote: > > > > > bboyminn: > > > > > > Yes, I listened to it; it was very informative, but fair > > > warning to those who freaked out when she said Dumbledore > > > was gay, don't listen if you don't want to her. > > > > Alla: > > > > Um, not me LOL. Too bad I cannot listen to it, sigh, have > > to wait for transcript. I am sooo nervous about installing > > new things on my computer. > > Tonks: OK... here I come kicking and screeming into the 21st century. I know what a podcast is.. radio on the computer. But where do I go and when to hear it?? I have never paid an attention to it at the conventions. Are you saying it was an interview with Rowling and their will be another? when and where do I go? Thanks. Tonks_op From s.hayes at qut.edu.au Thu Dec 20 08:29:58 2007 From: s.hayes at qut.edu.au (Sharon Hayes) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 18:29:58 +1000 Subject: what's your Xmas look like? Message-ID: <3EBC8113FA09F449B6CC44C847E510911CDFC631A3@QUTEXMBX02.qut.edu.au> Hi all, I am wondering what other people's Xmas is looking like. Living in Australia, we are in the middle of summer and so it's hot, rainy, and humid. For Xmas dinner we are having BBQ'd salmon fillets, sliced turkey breast, salad and champagne. We'll lounge on the deck and after lunch take a walk along the beach nearby. I am SOOOOOO wanting a white Xmas right now!!! I've never had one, and since a lot of you lovely people live in the northern hemisphere, I would really love it if you could post what you're doing and what it will be like. What is the weather like and what will you be eating and doing next Tuesday? Sharon, who thinks Xmas in Scotland would be about the nicest, cosiest, freezing cold way to spend the holidays, instead of sweltering here with the aircon cranked on high. From pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no Thu Dec 20 11:19:54 2007 From: pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no (=?iso-8859-1?q?Christian_Stub=F8?=) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 11:19:54 -0000 Subject: leaky podcast In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter, "Tonks" wrote: > OK... here I come kicking and screeming into the 21st > century. I know what a podcast is.. radio on the computer. > But where do I go and when to hear it?? http://pottercast.the-leaky-cauldron.org/ About half the way down that page is one link labelled "Direct download (22 MB)" and another labelled "Direct download low-bandwidth (6 MB)". The first will have better sound quality, but will also take nearly 4 times as long to download, so which one you choose will depend on how fast internet-connection you have, and how much patience you have. Best regards Christian Stub? From n2fgc at arrl.net Thu Dec 20 16:02:25 2007 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Lee Storm(God Is The Healing Force)) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 11:02:25 -0500 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] what's your Xmas look like? In-Reply-To: <3EBC8113FA09F449B6CC44C847E510911CDFC631A3@QUTEXMBX02.qut.edu.au> Message-ID: <000c01c84321$b7247260$67a4a8c0@FRODO> Hi, Okay, like I'm so jealous of Sharron's description of her Australian Christmas! I can skip the champagne in favor of eggnog, but the weather...Ah, I can wish for that. Last year in New Jersey, we had an unseasonably, incredibly warm Christmas of 71 degrees (F.), and were standing in short sleeves outside and taking a walk and enjoying it tremendously. This year, however, the forecast calls for something like the high 30s or low 40s (f.) with, I think, rain. Dinner at my place will be most untraditional, as I plan to make boneless chicken breasts rolled with bacon and onions (turkey bacon, of course), and my brother desperately wants a green bean casserole which I have no idea of how to make and better look it up quickly! All I know is that it has French-fried onion and mushroom soup, but I'm not sure what else if anything. And, for dessert, I'll probably whip up some Choc-Chip cookies and ice cream. We will, however, have eggnog! Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at arrl.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at optonline.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From annemehr at yahoo.com Thu Dec 20 16:20:10 2007 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (Annemehr) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 16:20:10 -0000 Subject: what's your Xmas look like? In-Reply-To: <000c01c84321$b7247260$67a4a8c0@FRODO> Message-ID: Lee wrote: > Dinner at my place will be most untraditional, as I plan to make boneless > chicken breasts rolled with bacon and onions (turkey bacon, of course), and > my brother desperately wants a green bean casserole which I have no idea of > how to make and better look it up quickly! All I know is that it has > French-fried onion and mushroom soup, but I'm not sure what else if > anything. THE traditional and quintessential green bean casserole is a Campbell's soup recipe, which can be found here: http://www.campbellkitchen.com/recipedetail.aspx?recipeID=24099 And here's the actual recipe, copied and pasted: Green Bean Casserole: From: Campbell's Kitchen Prep: 10 minutes Bake: 30 minutes Serves: 6 Ingredients: 1 can (10 3/4 oz.) Campbell's? Condensed Cream of Mushroom Soup (Regular, 98% Fat Free or 25% Less Sodium) 1/2 cup milk 1 tsp. soy sauce Dash ground black pepper 4 cups cooked cut green beans 1 1/3 cups French's? French Fried Onions Directions: MIX soup, milk, soy, black pepper, beans and 2/3 cup onions in 1 1/2- qt. casserole. BAKE at 350?F. for 25 min. or until hot. STIR . Sprinkle with remaining onions. Bake 5 min. TIP: Use 1 bag (16 to 20 oz.) frozen green beans, 2 pkg. (9 oz. each) frozen green beans, 2 cans (about 16 oz. each) green beans or about 1 1/2 lb. fresh green beans for this recipe. For a change of pace, substitute 4 cups cooked broccoli flowerets for the green beans. For a creative twist, stir in 1/2 cup shredded Cheddar cheese with soup. Omit soy sauce. Sprinkle with 1/4 cup additional Cheddar cheese when adding the remaining onions. For a festive touch, stir in 1/4 cup chopped red pepper with soup. For a heartier mushroom flavor, substitute Campbell's? Condensed Golden Mushroom Soup for Cream of Mushroom Soup. Omit soy sauce. Stir in 1/4 cup chopped red pepper with green beans. ------------------------------------------------------------------ As for us, we are having ham and kielbassa for Christmas dinner, along with I don't know what side dishes yet. I've decided to make a trifle for dessert, though. Hmmm... for our weather here in Southwestern Pennsylvania, they're forecasting snow showers for Christmas Eve, and mostly cloudy for Christmas Day (though, a bit above freezing, so I expect everything to melt). Annemehr From anigrrrl2 at yahoo.com Thu Dec 20 16:24:50 2007 From: anigrrrl2 at yahoo.com (Kathryn Lambert) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 08:24:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: what's your Xmas look like? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <58204.23204.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I have a very old-fashioned Christmas. We do a natural tree, with white lights, and family heirloom ornaments, some which date back to the 19th century. For food, we usually have breakfast at home, something like waffles or pancakes. Then we spend the day with my hubby's family, who is Italian, so we do ravioli, ham, pork, and antipasto. I do miss my WASP childhood dinners of ham, turkey, stuffing, and mashed taters... In Baltimore, it's going to be fairly mild (40's) and rainy. I don't remember the last time we had snow for Christmas... :( Happy holidays, ya'll! Katie --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dzny72 at yahoo.com Thu Dec 20 17:08:40 2007 From: dzny72 at yahoo.com (Marlo Abernathy) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 09:08:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: what's your Xmas look like? Message-ID: <864246.15577.qm@web51706.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Hello everyone--coming out of hiding to comment. . .I live in Illinois, and we are currently having a very mild winter. Although we do have about an inch or two of snow right now, it is supposed to be in the mid 30's for the rest of this week. More snow expected by Christmas Day, though. I absolutely can't stand the snow and cold usually, but this is not bad at all. I wouldn't mind trying a Christmas with shorts & t-shirts though; at least once. We usually have what we consider a typical "holiday meal"--turkey, ham, mashed potatoes with gravy, candied sweet potatoes, green bean casserole, broccoli rice casserole, relish trays and deviled eggs, and of course pies for dessert. I hope everyone enjoys their Christmas or other holiday they may be celebrating, and the best for the new year!! Dzny aka Marlo "Like a faded pair of torn blue jeans, the skin I'm in is alright with me--it's not old. . . .just older."--Bon Jovi --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Schlobin at aol.com Thu Dec 20 17:16:00 2007 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 17:16:00 -0000 Subject: leaky podcast In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I just clicked on the listen to it now streaming button, and it played out of my computer speakers.... It was absolutely lovely... also check out the interview with her when she was named Time Person of the Year runner up.... One of the things I found most interesting was that she said even the most fanatic of fans could not mourn the end of the series as much as she did... She did not rule out another book in the Potter universe (as she has in the past) - she cites pressure from #1 fan -- her daughter Jessica.... she says it wouldn't focus on Harry, though.. She's definitely going to do the encyclopedia... She describes what it will be like on the podcast. Susan From s_ings at yahoo.com Thu Dec 20 17:22:17 2007 From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 12:22:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] what's your Xmas look like? In-Reply-To: <3EBC8113FA09F449B6CC44C847E510911CDFC631A3@QUTEXMBX02.qut.edu.au> Message-ID: <147361.89832.qm@web63412.mail.re1.yahoo.com> --- Sharon Hayes wrote: > Hi all, I am wondering what other people's Xmas is > looking like. Living in Australia, we are in the > middle of summer and so it's hot, rainy, and humid. > For Xmas dinner we are having BBQ'd salmon fillets, > sliced turkey breast, salad and champagne. We'll > lounge on the deck and after lunch take a walk along > the beach nearby. > > I am SOOOOOO wanting a white Xmas right now!!! I've > never had one, and since a lot of you lovely people > live in the northern hemisphere, I would really love > it if you could post what you're doing and what it > will be like. What is the weather like and what will > you be eating and doing next Tuesday? > Sheryll: Snow? We've definitely got that here in Ottawa. The storm here on Sunday gave us a record-breaking snowfall for the month of December, a total of 37 cm. And we added a few more centimetres to that yesterday. What the weather will be like over the weekend is anyone's guess, as the Weather Network changes the forecast daily. As of right now, it's supposed to be 8 C on Sunday and pouring rain, -2 C on the 24th and snowing, and -4 and sunny on Christmas Day. The only bit that concerns me is the temperature drop on Sunday night, as the rain may freeze and I have to walk down a bridge on my way home from work around midnight. As for how we're celebrating Christmas - well, it depends who in my family we're talking about. My husband and daughter will be spending Christmas Eve with my sister's family. My parents will spend the night there, too. My sister has 3 children and the only house big enough for everyone to sleep over. Christmas Eve will be potluck, with everyone bringing nibblies and they will graze for a couple hours. Someone, in their infinite wisdom, will remind the kids about the website for tracking Santa, therefore guaranteeing a late bedtime and my not being there for Christmas. No, I'm not a Scrooge. What I will be is very, very tired and willing to stay up until midnight. You see, I work 4-11:15 pm on Sunday, 8 am-5 pm on Monday and 11 am-7:15 pm on Christmas Day. >From experience with Christmas at my sister's, I know that my husband and I will be delegated the kids' playroom for sleeping, meaning no sleep until they go to bed. It's also very cold down there, my sister has a lack of blanket supply with everyone there. She's also a procrastinator and, once the kids go to bed, she enlists everyone to help wrap her gifts. And stockings cannot be filled until the kids are asleep. Last time, that was after midnight. I think I'm too old to keep those kind of hours. I will come home from work on Christmas Eve, have a quiet dinner and go to bed early. Public transit from house is barely adequate, so I'll be forced to leave earlier than usual for work Christmas Day and not get a bus home from work until 45 minutes after we close. Last year I took Christmas off work to make a family trip to visit my grandmother. This year it's the boss's turn, hence my work hours. Granted, we'll have fun at work and OD on many tins of Christmas cookies. Most of my gifts will be here for me, Mom is dropping them off Christmas Eve when she comes to pick up my husband and daughter and the stuff they have to haul out to the suburbs. I'll open those Christmas morning and have my stocking and the rest of my gifts waiting when I get home Christmas Day. Everyone will have the traditional turkey dinner out in the country at my parents' place. They'll bring me lots of leftovers so I can have my own dinner when I get home from work. Not an ideal Christmas, but better than some. Three years ago everyone went down to my grandmother's place and I spent the whole week around Christmas on my own. Sadly, I was so busy with work that I didn't really care that I was alone. Keep in mind, though, that I love Christmas! My tree has been up for weeks. Despite overnight inventory shifts last night and tonight I'll be baking today and finishing my shopping tomorrow (only 2 gifts left to buy and a couple stocking stuffers). I have so many pairs of Christmas socks that I wear a different pair to work every day for the whole month. I play the Muppets Christmas Carol constantly at work and will have my annual viewing of Love, Actually while I wrap gifts on Saturday. I just also like my sleep and prefer not to spend Christmas day exhausted and trying to deal with masses of customers. Sheryll, who really dislikes overnight inventories :) Connect with friends from any web browser - no download required. Try the new Yahoo! Canada Messenger for the Web BETA at http://ca.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php From n2fgc at arrl.net Thu Dec 20 17:38:42 2007 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Lee Storm(God Is The Healing Force)) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 12:38:42 -0500 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] what's your Xmas look like? In-Reply-To: <147361.89832.qm@web63412.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000a01c8432f$29f84700$67a4a8c0@FRODO> [Sheryll wrote]: |What the weather will be like over the weekend is |anyone's guess, as the Weather Network changes the |forecast daily. As of right now, it's supposed to be 8 |C on Sunday and pouring rain, -2 C on the 24th and |snowing, and -4 and sunny on Christmas Day. The only |bit that concerns me is the temperature drop on Sunday |night, as the rain may freeze and I have to walk down |a bridge on my way home from work around midnight. [Lee]: Well, your options are clear: 1. Use your wand to melt the ice on the bridge like Hermione did--you know, the Hot Air treatment. 2. Try to get a canister of that Ice Melt stuff and sprinkle ahead of you. I hate ice! Having a bad back makes me even more paranoid, I think, as I tend to sometimes go into paralysis mode. Good Luck!!!!!! Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at arrl.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at optonline.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From bboyminn at yahoo.com Thu Dec 20 18:43:48 2007 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 18:43:48 -0000 Subject: leaky podcast In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- "Tonks" wrote: > > --- "Steve" wrote: > > > > --- wrote: > > > > > > > bboyminn: > > > > > > > > Yes, I listened to it; it was very informative, but fair > > > > warning to those who freaked out when she said Dumbledore > > > > was gay, don't listen if you don't want to her. > > > > > > Alla: > > > > > > Um, not me LOL. Too bad I cannot listen to it, sigh, have > > > to wait for transcript. I am sooo nervous about installing > > > new things on my computer. > > > > > Tonks: > > OK... here I come kicking and screeming into the 21st century. I > know what a podcast is.. radio on the computer. But where do I go > and when to hear it?? I have never paid an attention to it at the > conventions. Are you saying it was an interview with Rowling and > their will be another? when and where do I go? Thanks. > > Tonks_op > bboyminn: They really do have Internet radio stations but they are continually streaming their broadcast out. PodCast, which is what PotterCast is, was originally meant to be played on iPod/iTune players. But there was enough of a demand that they made them available in standard MP3 format, which is a common digital music format. The computer iTunes software will play MP3 files as will Windows Media Player, Quicktime, Real Player, and many many other 'media' players. Depending on your internet connection, you can either down- load the 22Mb (megabyte) or the 6Mb file. Obviously, the 22Mb has better sound quality. You could simply try the 'Listen to it now' option and see if you have some media player that will play it. I suspect though that the 'listen to it now' requires iTunes but wouldn't swear to it. Anyway, you can find all the PotterCasts at - http://pottercast.the-leaky-cauldron.org/ and information on this specific PotterCast (#130) at - http://the-leaky-cauldron.org/2007/12/18/pottercast-130-the-one-with-j-k-rowling This is the first half of a two part PotterCast, the second part will be available next week. Steve/bboyminn From bboyminn at yahoo.com Thu Dec 20 19:40:13 2007 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 19:40:13 -0000 Subject: what's your Xmas look like? In-Reply-To: <3EBC8113FA09F449B6CC44C847E510911CDFC631A3@QUTEXMBX02.qut.edu.au> Message-ID: --- Sharon Hayes wrote: > > Hi all, I am wondering what other people's Xmas is looking > like. Living in Australia, we are in the middle of summer > and so it's hot, rainy, and humid. ... > > > Sharon, > who thinks Xmas in Scotland would be about the nicest, > cosiest, freezing cold way to spend the holidays, instead > of sweltering here with the aircon cranked on high. > bboyminn: Our Christmas's used to be very traditional. When I was young we always had a fresh pine tree; I miss the smell of that pine. Later we had one of those hideous silver foil trees. They do look nice, but they are about as unChristmasee as you can get. Now every year on Thanksgiving day, after our food has settled, we all gather round and decorate my mother's artificial but still very nice green pine tree, and put up her other decorations. That, for us, is the official beginning of the Christmas season. A typical old Christmas used to involve gathering around my mother's house for a big meal of turkey, ham, mashed potatoes, stuffing, scalped corn, yams, and other assorted side dishes as well as assorted pies and other deserts. The most important things that make Thanksgiving and Christmas are my mother's home made lefse (Scandinavian flat bread made from potatoes) and her cranberry relish (which we discussed her recently; recipies included). Unfortunately our family has grown too big to be contained in my mother's house. Initially we rented the American Legion Hall to accommodate all the brothers, sisters, nieces, nephews, grand nieces, and grand nephews, and assorted boyfriends and girlfriends. My mother even enrolled me in the American Legion (without my knowledge) so she could keep getting the Legion Hall at a member discount after my father passed away. Then she decide to change the venue to the Social Hall at our local Church. Plenty of room for the kids to run and play, and the open room at least lets you see everyone even if you don't get a chance to talk to them. It's actually worked out very nicely now for several years, but as my brothers and sisters hav become grandparents, they wanted to start a Christmas tradition of their own. So this year we are having out extended Family Christmas on Sunday after Church in the Social Hall. That allows the others to hold their own Christmas on the 24th and 25th. Though we have started another tradition, after so many big meals in the holiday season, we decided to make Christmas Eve 'Soup Day'. Everyone who is not otherwise occupied, comes to Mom's house where we have several big pots of assorted soups. I'm debating between Chicken Noodle and Chili, but I think Chicken Noodle is winning. My brother is bringing Potato Cheese Soup, Mom will whip up a couple of her own soups, and my sister will bring a soup. It actually turns out to be a very fun time, and my mother finds out which kids really appreciate her and deserve to be in her Will (he said humorously). Since my brothers and sisters now have their own extended families, we quit buying each other presents. I do give them each a box of chocolates instead of a Christmas card, it's about the same price but a lot less work. This year I am giving one sister a copy of The Sorcerer's Stone. She is a big Eragon fan, and loves the HP movies, but can't bring herself to read the books. I think she doesn't want to offend Eragon by loving another character. Still maybe this will get her started. I'm also getting (secretly) my favorite grand nephew an Eragon/Eldest set. He loves to read, and anything I can do to encourage that, I do. Unfortunately, my sister and her other son love the Eragon books and I think my grand nephew is resisting reading them, thinking that he couldn't possibly like anything his grandmother could like. Now that he has them though, he will eventually read them and see what a grand adventure they are. That's Christmas for me. And for the record, here in sunny souther Minnesota there is about 6 inches of snow on the ground. The first time is snowed it was really freezing rain which is miserable, and just a few days ago it was 3dF (-16 dC), and remained in the range of 0 dF to 15 dF (-18 dC to -9 dC) for about a week. Although now it has warmed up to a balmy 30 dF (-1 dC). Christmas with a large family in southern Minnesota/northern Iowa. Steve/bboyminn From bboyminn at yahoo.com Thu Dec 20 20:35:59 2007 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 20:35:59 -0000 Subject: Echos of Jewish Persecution in Germany Message-ID: No denying that the German government can get a bit fanatical at times, but they seem hell-bend on ridding Germany of the Church of Scientology, saying that it is a threat to the Constitution of Germany and it is attempting to "...abolishing the free democratic basic order". Seems a little extreme when you consider that Scientology only has about 6,000 members in a country of 82.4 million. "Germany's Battle Against Scientology" http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1695514,00.html For the record, I am no big supporter of Scientology, and while there may be some misconduct by some individual members, I see not more than any other religion. Germany has also revoked Scientology status as an officially recognized church. The whole thing seems irrational or at least hyper-rationalized. Again, not a big supporter of Scientology, but this seems a little overboard. Steve/bboyminn From s.hayes at qut.edu.au Thu Dec 20 20:49:19 2007 From: s.hayes at qut.edu.au (Sharon Hayes) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 06:49:19 +1000 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] what's your Xmas look like? In-Reply-To: <000c01c84321$b7247260$67a4a8c0@FRODO> References: <3EBC8113FA09F449B6CC44C847E510911CDFC631A3@QUTEXMBX02.qut.edu.au>,<000c01c84321$b7247260$67a4a8c0@FRODO> Message-ID: <3EBC8113FA09F449B6CC44C847E510911CDFC631A5@QUTEXMBX02.qut.edu.au> Lee: Okay, like I'm so jealous of Sharron's description of her Australian Christmas! I can skip the champagne in favor of eggnog, but the weather...Ah, I can wish for that. Last year in New Jersey, we had an unseasonably, incredibly warm Christmas of 71 degrees (F.), and were standing in short sleeves outside and taking a walk and enjoying it tremendously. This year, however, the forecast calls for something like the high 30s or low 40s (f.) with, I think, rain. Dinner at my place will be most untraditional, as I plan to make boneless chicken breasts rolled with bacon and onions (turkey bacon, of course), and my brother desperately wants a green bean casserole which I have no idea of how to make and better look it up quickly! All I know is that it has French-fried onion and mushroom soup, but I'm not sure what else if anything. And, for dessert, I'll probably whip up some Choc-Chip cookies and ice cream. We will, however, have eggnog! Sharon: What's eggnog? How do you make it? The Green bean casserole sounds good too! From s.hayes at qut.edu.au Thu Dec 20 20:55:27 2007 From: s.hayes at qut.edu.au (Sharon Hayes) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 06:55:27 +1000 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] what's your Xmas look like? In-Reply-To: <147361.89832.qm@web63412.mail.re1.yahoo.com> References: <3EBC8113FA09F449B6CC44C847E510911CDFC631A3@QUTEXMBX02.qut.edu.au>,<147361.89832.qm@web63412.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3EBC8113FA09F449B6CC44C847E510911CDFC631A6@QUTEXMBX02.qut.edu.au> Sheryll: Snow? We've definitely got that here in Ottawa. The storm here on Sunday gave us a record-breaking snowfall for the month of December, a total of 37 cm. And we added a few more centimetres to that yesterday. What the weather will be like over the weekend is anyone's guess, as the Weather Network changes the forecast daily. As of right now, it's supposed to be 8 C on Sunday and pouring rain, -2 C on the 24th and snowing, and -4 and sunny on Christmas Day. The only bit that concerns me is the temperature drop on Sunday night, as the rain may freeze and I have to walk down a bridge on my way home from work around midnight. Sharon: Oh I am so jealous. I know it might sound iddylic to have a warm summery Xmas but I love snow! We never get snow here. Ottowa sounds just gorgeous! What a shame you have to work on Xmas day but I guess someone has to do it. My works shuts down for the whole time between Xmas day and new years day, so we get the week off. I guess I have it pretty lucky so I shouldn't whinge! From miles at martinbraeutigam.de Thu Dec 20 21:02:52 2007 From: miles at martinbraeutigam.de (Miles) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 22:02:52 +0100 Subject: Echos of Jewish Persecution in Germany References: Message-ID: <001f01c8434b$b152a210$15b2a8c0@miles> Steve wrote: > No denying that the German government can get a bit fanatical > at times, but they seem hell-bend on ridding Germany of the > Church of Scientology, saying that it is a threat to the > Constitution of Germany and it is attempting to "...abolishing > the free democratic basic order". > > Seems a little extreme when you consider that Scientology only > has about 6,000 members in a country of 82.4 million. > > "Germany's Battle Against Scientology" > http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1695514,00.html Miles: Well, first: Scientology *is* an anti-democratic ideology. If they could what they say they want, there would be no free society and no democracy at all. So, to compare the issue with the Jewish Persecution is not only extremely distasteful, it's historically the wrong side of the story. The laws that constrict anti-democratic organizations are a reaction to the Nazi takeover - they used democratic elections and institutions to abolish democracy, so the Grundgesetz (German constitution) wants to build a "wehrhafte" (well-fortified) democracy. There were few bans on political parties (two since 1949, one Nazi and one Communist party) and some bans on clubs/associations (again mostly Nazi's, and islamistic ones). Some parties and associations are observed by intelligence services, among them Scientology. The problem with Scientology as a "church" in Germany would simply be, that they would have the right to get money from the state, mostly tax advantages. They would get money to build schools etc. So, to observe Scientology and embank their actions has political reasons beyond being "afraid" of 6,000 people - the idea is to make it difficult for them to let the state pay for their propaganda. Martin, shivering in Germany, but not because there are political "Persecutions", but because it's cold out there ;) From bboyminn at yahoo.com Fri Dec 21 01:15:41 2007 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 01:15:41 -0000 Subject: Echos of Jewish Persecution in Germany In-Reply-To: <001f01c8434b$b152a210$15b2a8c0@miles> Message-ID: --- "Miles" wrote: > > Steve wrote: > > .. the German government ... seem hell-bend on ridding > > Germany of the Church of Scientology, saying that it is > > a threat to the Constitution of Germany and it is > > attempting to "...abolishing the free democratic basic > > order". > > > > Seems a little extreme when you consider that Scientology > > only has about 6,000 members in a country of 82.4 million. > > > > ... > > Miles: > Well, first: Scientology *is* an anti-democratic ideology. .. > bboyminn: So...the Catholic Church is a democracy is it? And the Catholic Church is not equally bend on controlling the live of not only its member, but of everyone in the world...if they had their way that is. So, in what way is Scientology any more or less a theocracy than any other religion? > Miles continues: > > So, to compare the issue with the Jewish Persecution is not > only extremely distasteful, it's historically the wrong side > of the story. ... bboyminn: Sorry if that offends you, it wasn't intended. That was a very limited analogy and was also eluded to in the news story which you may have noticed was from TIME magazine. The only parallel drawn is that in the past Germany seemed to single out one religion as the 'enemy', and now they have singled out another religion as the 'enemy'. I don't claim, and neither does TIME, that the analogy carries through down to the last detail. So, my question to you is, how is Scientology any more or less democratic than any other religion, and how would democracy be destroyed any more by the total take over of the Catholics (or any other religion) than by the take over of Scientology? The key doesn't seem to be to deny them, but to insure they never gain enough political power to take over. Religion combined with politics is always a volatile combination, and uniformly has resulted in disaster. Best to allow them not to mix. I'm not being sarcastic, that's a serious question. Steve/bboyminn From s_ings at yahoo.com Fri Dec 21 01:30:36 2007 From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 20:30:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] what's your Xmas look like? In-Reply-To: <3EBC8113FA09F449B6CC44C847E510911CDFC631A6@QUTEXMBX02.qut.edu.au> Message-ID: <530683.49795.qm@web63414.mail.re1.yahoo.com> > Sheryll: > > Snow? We've definitely got that here in Ottawa. The > storm here on Sunday gave us a record-breaking > snowfall for the month of December, a total of 37 > cm. > And we added a few more centimetres to that > yesterday. > What the weather will be like over the weekend is > anyone's guess, as the Weather Network changes the > forecast daily. As of right now, it's supposed to be > 8 > C on Sunday and pouring rain, -2 C on the 24th and > snowing, and -4 and sunny on Christmas Day. The only > bit that concerns me is the temperature drop on > Sunday > night, as the rain may freeze and I have to walk > down > a bridge on my way home from work around midnight. > > > Sharon: > Oh I am so jealous. I know it might sound iddylic to > have a warm summery Xmas but I love snow! We never > get snow here. Ottowa sounds just gorgeous! What a > shame you have to work on Xmas day but I guess > someone has to do it. My works shuts down for the > whole time between Xmas day and new years day, so we > get the week off. I guess I have it pretty lucky so > I shouldn't whinge! > Sheryll again: Oddly enough, I'm not envying a summery Christmas! I did spend a few years as a child living in places where it never or hardly ever snowed. It just didn't feel like Christmas to me. While I may whine a great deal about the cold, I really do love snow. Maybe not when I have to jump off 3 1/2 foot snow banks just to make it to the bus stop, though. I definitely injured my ankle doing that on Monday! I hadn't realised how much until I got home from my inventory shift last night and saw how swollen it was. I might like the snow less if I had to shovel the driveway, but my husband and his brother are out doing that now. Aside from the unnavigable sidewalks, it really does look like a Christmas card picture. :D I kind of used to working Christmas Day by now. Both this job (at Blockbuster) and my previous one (at a movie theatre) required it. And since I have no small children at home, I don't at all mind letting other people take Christmas off to spend with their family. My daughter's 24 now and was in her late teens before I took the theatre job. I find it interesting that the person who is most offended by my not being available on Christmas is my sister. Steve, you mentioned a 'Soup Night' for Christmas Eve. I love that idea. We did it only once and it just never caught on with our family. It's a shame, because it makes for a great meal with lots of variety. And gives us all a chance to show off some favourite recipes the way a mass of nibblies just doesn't do. Sheryll, heading off to do inventory in about an hour Join the fun at Convention Alley 2008 ____________________________________________________ Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now at http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com. From s_ings at yahoo.com Fri Dec 21 01:34:28 2007 From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 20:34:28 -0500 (EST) Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] what's your Xmas look like? In-Reply-To: <000a01c8432f$29f84700$67a4a8c0@FRODO> Message-ID: <985082.83997.qm@web63412.mail.re1.yahoo.com> > [Sheryll wrote]: > |What the weather will be like over the weekend is > |anyone's guess, as the Weather Network changes the > |forecast daily. As of right now, it's supposed to > be 8 > |C on Sunday and pouring rain, -2 C on the 24th and > |snowing, and -4 and sunny on Christmas Day. The > only > |bit that concerns me is the temperature drop on > Sunday > |night, as the rain may freeze and I have to walk > down > |a bridge on my way home from work around midnight. > > [Lee]: > Well, your options are clear: > 1. Use your wand to melt the ice on the bridge like > Hermione did--you know, > the Hot Air treatment. > > 2. Try to get a canister of that Ice Melt stuff and > sprinkle ahead of you. > > I hate ice! Having a bad back makes me even more > paranoid, I think, as I > tend to sometimes go into paralysis mode. > > Good Luck!!!!!! Sheryll again: There is a third option for dealing with ice. I have a pair of those useful little picky things that velcro over your boots. Very useful and inexpensive as well. And very necessary for ice. I live on a street that's only one block long and uphill on both ends. :) Sheryll, who's mastery of ice melting spells could use some work :D Join the fun at Convention Alley 2008 Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers and share what you know at http://ca.answers.yahoo.com From bboyminn at yahoo.com Fri Dec 21 01:43:11 2007 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 01:43:11 -0000 Subject: Whoo-Hoo! December Boys on DVD Message-ID: Just came from the local Movie Gallery, and they have a copy of 'December Boys' for rent. Unfortunately, they had ONLY ONE copy and it was rented out. But I'm going to go back midweek and see if it is available. Steve/bboyminn From Schlobin at aol.com Fri Dec 21 03:00:32 2007 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 03:00:32 -0000 Subject: what's your Xmas look like? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Well, for years I lived in Michigan and then before that in New York, so I've seen many a snowy Christmas..I do miss about three days of snow when we had food inside and we didn't have to go anywhere..but I'm afraid I don't miss the mud, and the ice, and the dark.. I'm now in Humboldt County, California, and it snows about 20 minutes north of here so we can go up and see it, but never snows near the ocean...it'll be chilly (about 40 degrees) and I hope sunny...but this is our rainy season. Garrison Keillor has his memories of Christmas on salon.com. We celebrate the Winter Solstice, Yule and Christmas. And second to Halloween, it's one of my two favorite holidays. I love gift giving. When I was young in New York... On Christmas eve, Santa Claus would ride throughout the town on the fire truck and we would all go out to wave to him as he drove by with flashing lights and sirens. My father always put Christmas lights on the outside of the house, single bulbs on all the foliage outside. I remember that sometimes my parents put evergreen boughs on top of the mantle piece with lights interspersed among them, but that changed later on - I think we were afraid of fire... The Christmas tree was always in the dining room corner. My father would put the lights on, and put the very small tiny balls on the top (I still have a few that are on the top of my tree). He was very tall and didn???t need a ladder to get up there. (which I do) I would put the old very large ornaments on the bottom of the tree, and then the middle size ornaments would be carefully placed on the middle of the tree. Perhaps my mother and brother would help, but I don't remember that. Then we would put on the tinsel. My father would insist that we had to carefully put the tinsel on by the end so that it would like an icicle..but I found that very tiresome!.. The only presents under the tree would be those sent by our great aunts and uncles I would be relegated to sleep with my brother in his room because my grandparents would be sleeping in my room. I would wake up at 5 a.m., but we would have to wait until 6 when my parents would wake up (I empathize now as I take pictures bleary eyed on Christmas morning at 7 a.m.). My mother didn't believe in wrapping all the presents, so there would be a big stack of boxes on the piano bench?unwrapped?.. For stockings, we would use my father's old wool socks?..they would hang above the mantelpiece ..there would be nails from which the stockings would hang?--?they would always have one Clark bar in them and in the bottom an orange?.there was a time when oranges were incredibly expensive luxuries?..Some times we would have a wood fire in the fireplace? I would play Christmas carols on the piano and my whole family would sing along..to this day I know four verses for every Christmas carol?.! One of our traditions was to play pokino, or poker or canasta as a family, and we continue that tradition on Christmas Day?playing board games, or using the same pokino set that I still have... These days?.we have my partner's wonderful advent calendar that she made herself, in each box there is a Christmas ornament, and as the boxes turn around they illuminate a picture of the Lion lying down with the lamb?.. One of her family's traditions was that everyone would receive a new nightgown/pjs on Christmas Eve?.so we continue that.. Our son has clearly figured out that there is no Santa Claus and that we supply the presents, but in his usual lovely way, he is humoring me, and graciously pretending that there is a Santa Claus Our daughter is still figuring it ou? Our Christmas stockings are not old socks, but they are beautiful and elaborate stockings, hanging not from nails, but this year from bronze hooks that spell PEACE? We give the kids one gift at the Solstice, and one at Christmas Ev? We have a Yule/Solstice ritual in which we talk about the Solstice as the shortest day of the year, and bringing back the light?. >From one of our dear friends, we have borrowed the tradition of reading the WONDERFUL book The Red Ranger Comes Calling on Christmas Eve..check it out! And I have been reading the children Tolkien's the Father Christmas Letters for the past week. I have both a wonderful and hard time during these holiday seasons. Both my parents died during this time (my mother just before TG and my father just before Xmas).. And we are using ALL their wonderful stuff for the holidays..my grandmother's tacky daschund NOEL, and my mother's wonderful Christmas Spode china, and the incredibly tacky Christmas macrame balls that my father made, and also the macrame santa claus napkin rings that my father made?so I am both happy and sad We also have about 50 winter solstice, yule and Christmas cds and tapes, and about eight Christmas/Yule dvds/videos that we watch (Charlie Brown's Christmas, A Christmas Carol, It's a Wonderful Life, etc.) I'm delighted to be working for a non-profit again this Christmas?people are giving us all kinds of things, and we are (with great joy) passing them on to our residents who have virtually nothing... Christmas Eve we have a dinner right out of the Silver Palate cook book, beef tenderloin, cauliflower and parmesan cheese, curried carrots..yum, yum...on Christmas Day, Turkey and stuffing and mashed potatoes and sweet potatoes, and stuffed celery and rolls, and broccoli with cheese sauce, and pies and ice cream... Happy holidays, all Susan From n2fgc at arrl.net Fri Dec 21 10:31:02 2007 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Lee Storm(God Is The Healing Force)) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 05:31:02 -0500 Subject: A Little Gift--A Personal Christmas Story Message-ID: <000801c843bc$95cb7230$67a4a8c0@FRODO> This is a true story that I bring to you all. I hope you enjoy my little "E-Gift." :-) The actual writing of this was done in the beginning of 2004 and some friends wanted me to publish this, but I never did. So, I figured I'd share it here. A Bell For Christmas by Lee Storm Christmas of 1964 was no ordinary Christmas in our house. Oh, things started in the usual way on Christmas Eve with our traditional dinner at my Oma's (grandma's) house with Oma, my Uncle Walty, my very pregnant Mom, Daddy and me, who was five years old at the time. Our traditional dinner was Gruen Cole (a cooked, ground kale) and pork. We always had fun, ending the dinner with a little bit of chocolate liqueur in a little chocolate cup. I always felt so special because I was included and would slurp the contents of my cup and then--chomp! After dinner we went home and I, of course, went to bed; I sure didn't want Santa to see me awake! It was then that the traditional Christmas stuff was drastically changed for that year. I remember being woken up very early Christmas morning by my Daddy who told me I had a new brother. Mom, apparently thinking she was suffering a bit of indigestion from the gruen cole dinner, had called my Oma who immediately got Mom into a cab and took her to the hospital. And, that supposed indigestion was a very quick labor and, to quote a phrase, "She brought forth her first-born son." A Christmas present. Christmas morning dawned, I opened presents with Daddy, and then found myself at Oma's joined by Tante (Aunt) Betty and Uncle Gunther. I found out I was going to be spending the week at there house. Okay, this didn't bother me; I thought spending a week with Tante Betty and Uncle Gunther would be cool! They had such a neat house. Oma gave Tante Betty a beautiful glass dinner bell for Christmas that year. It was a lovely bell with a wonderful clear sound. I fell in love with it, and remember ringing it for dinner while I was there for that week and, subsequently, looking for it to give it a ring every time I was over there. That bell...thinking of it not being there would be--well--weird! The years have come and gone; my brother, John, has grown into a strong, God-loving young man; he has been subjected to the jokes about being merely a case of indigestion. And my other brother, Tracey, born about a year and a half after John, is married to a lovely lady and they have a babe of their own. Through it all, I would still have thoughts about that wonderful bell. Around Christmas of 2002, my husband, Art, and I had gone to celebrate with Tante Betty and Uncle Gunther. Somehow, the bell came up in conversation. I asked if it still existed; Tante Betty said it certainly did, but she didn't know where it was. We looked a bit in the hutch in the dining room, but didn't find it. But I remembered...that sweet, clear sound from such a lovely glass bell. We were slated to visit Tante Betty and Uncle Gunther the day after Christmas of 2003. We almost didn't get there! Shortly before noon, the furnace began making a fierce racket and had to be shut down. We put in a call to Tante Betty to let her know we were having a problem and might not be able to make it to their house that day, but we'd keep them posted. Then, we phoned PSE&G for furnace repair, and the earliest they could slot us in was Sunday...and this was Friday! Art and I made the appointment rather grudgingly. The idea of no heat from Friday, Dec. 26 to Sunday, Dec. 28, did not sit well with me. I contacted our police department and, through them, got the name of someone in our town who might be able to help us in far shorter order. I made contact with the gentleman, Mr. Montagna, through his wife who promised me that she'd beep him and would call me back. I called Tante Betty again and talked to my cousin, Christine. We arranged that if they didn't hear from us, we weren't coming. If we called back, we were on our way. Twenty minutes later, there was a knock at our back door and there was Mr. Montagna, ready and willing to help us. Within 15 minutes, he had put a new coupling from the motor to the pump and the furnace was purring like a happy kitten again. God was really with us! In hind-sight, I believe God really wanted us to get to Tante Betty and Uncle Gunther. So, Art and I got dressed and, armed with Bailey's Irish Cream for the Gunthers, we headed off. I phoned them from the car on our cell and let Tante Betty know we were rolling and our furnace was fixed. When we got there, we sat with wine and munchies...Art and me, Christine and Seth, Tante Betty and Uncle Gunther...all just truly enjoying being together. Then, the presents! The Gunthers were most delighted with the Irish Cream; that made me happy. And they had presents for us. Art got a nicely wrapped box of cologne and Tante Betty handed me a lovely little gift bag, warning me to open it very carefully. And I did; most carefully. And in my hands was...the bell. I held it, gave it a little ring, and so many wonderful feelings welled up within me as did the tears. My Tante Betty had given me that precious bell for Christmas. Lots of tears from all of us, lots of hugs, lots of wonderful memories. The rest of that afternoon and evening were filled with fun and lots of wonderful food. By the time Art and I left, we were very well stuffed and just felt good all over. Yup, God wanted us to be there; He wanted me to receive a most precious gift...a bell full of lovely memories, a feeling of family specialness and love. Even when writing this, I have tears in my eyes. Thank you, Lord, for your gift, and thank you, Tante Betty, for remembering and being the special instrument of a special gift. Whenever I look at and ring the bell, I'll remember...lots of love, lots of great Christmases and warm feelings, and how it all started back on the Christmas of 1964. Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at arrl.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at optonline.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From n2fgc at arrl.net Fri Dec 21 10:40:00 2007 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Lee Storm(God Is The Healing Force)) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 05:40:00 -0500 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] what's your Xmas look like? In-Reply-To: <3EBC8113FA09F449B6CC44C847E510911CDFC631A5@QUTEXMBX02.qut.edu.au> Message-ID: <000901c843bd$d66da910$67a4a8c0@FRODO> |Sharon: |What's eggnog? How do you make it? The Green bean casserole |sounds good too! [Lee]: Well, I usually buy my nog from the store, and some brands are better than others. However, there are some industrious people who make it. It's a dairy-type product and a nice description can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eggnog Personaly, I like mine spiced well, non-alcoholic, and plentiful! Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at arrl.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at optonline.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 21 18:44:50 2007 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 18:44:50 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? Message-ID: More and more people on TV shows and in advertising are saying "Happy holidays!" instead of Christmas. I could see that if Hanukkah coincided with Christmas as it did last year, but to me it seems like they really mean "Mwerry Christmas" but are afraid to say it. Holiday cards? Holiday trees? Surely, they mean Christmas cards and Christmas trees. (I'm waiting for "holiday carols," which will surely be next, except that Christmas carols seem to have been replaced by generic winter songs like "Jingle Bells" and "Winter Wonderland." And while it's still okay to mention Santa Claus and Rudolph the Red-nosed Reindeer because "Christmas is for children," it's not okay to mention Jesus or angels, and even some Christians object to mentioning Mary even though the original Christmas story involves her rather prominently. I'm not proselytizing, but I believe in *Christmas*, complete with all the traditional trimmings, from Handel's "Messiah" to a real Christmas tree (I can live with needles on the carpet; I can't stand fake trees). But what I want to know is why "Christmas" has become a forbidden word. If someone wishes me "Happy holidays," I always respond with a smile and "Merry Christmas." If someone were to wish me "Happy Hanukkah" (yes, I know it's over) or "Happy Ramadan" (no idea when it's celebrated), I'd say "The same to you." On a side note, it looks as if JKR's website won't be decorated for Christmas this year. Too bad; it's as if she or the people who run it have abandoned it or left it to run itself now that DH is out. (If so, one good thing could come out of it: maybe Severus will be wished a happy birthday on January 9!) Carol, wondering what the reaction of others on the list would be to being wished "Merry Christmas" by a stranger or casual acquaintance, whether or not they celebrate it From lwilliams15209 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 21 18:55:31 2007 From: lwilliams15209 at yahoo.com (lwilliams15209) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 18:55:31 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" wrote: > Carol, wondering what the reaction of others on the list would be to > being wished "Merry Christmas" by a stranger or casual acquaintance, > whether or not they celebrate it I will respond to this. Several years ago when I was at university and feeling very depressed and all alone as if no one in the world cared or even noticed me, I was wished a Happy Hanukkah by a complete stranger who was standing amid a group of his fellow joyful comrades and extending the sentiment to all who passed. Although I celebrate Christmas, the idea that here was someone who felt joyful and wanted to share that with everyone who crossed his path that day broke through my dark cloud of depression and put a smile on my face. I responded with a heartfelt "Thank you! And the same to you!" All these years later, I have never forgotten that moment. Sometimes, a kind word is all it takes to reach someone. Linda [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 21 20:42:42 2007 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 20:42:42 -0000 Subject: what's your Xmas look like? In-Reply-To: <3EBC8113FA09F449B6CC44C847E510911CDFC631A3@QUTEXMBX02.qut.edu.au> Message-ID: Sharon Hayes wrote: > > Hi all, I am wondering what other people's Xmas is looking like. Living in Australia, we are in the middle of summer and so it's hot, rainy, and humid. For Xmas dinner we are having BBQ'd salmon fillets, sliced turkey breast, salad and champagne. We'll lounge on the deck and after lunch take a walk along the beach nearby. > > I am SOOOOOO wanting a white Xmas right now!!! I've never had one, and since a lot of you lovely people live in the northern hemisphere, I would really love it if you could post what you're doing and what it will be like. What is the weather like and what will you be eating and doing next Tuesday? > > > Sharon, > who thinks Xmas in Scotland would be about the nicest, cosiest, freezing cold way to spend the holidays, instead of sweltering here with the aircon cranked on high. > Carol responds: Christmas in Tucson may not be Christmassy (wintry) by most people's standards, and it's rarely if ever white except in the surrounding mountains, but at least the AC is off and I occasionally turn on the heat. It's even been cold enough some nights (in the 30s Fahrenheit, which I guess equates to the tens (zero to nine) Centigrade) to light a fire in the fireplace. I have a real Christmas tree (not a live, replantable one because I live in an apartment complex with next to no yard and hard, rocky soil, but a cut tree that sheds needles on the carpet but smells good and looks pretty). I don't know what I'll be eating (turkey? ham? both?) because I'll be a guest, not the cook, but I'll probably bake and take a pumpkin pie and/or what's left of my fruitcake (recipe somewhere on this list!). We'll probably have sparkling cranberry/apple cider rather than champagne or wine since there will be kids present. Christmas for my (extended) family usually involves opening presents on Christmas morning and Christmas dinner in the afternoon. I'll leave my tree up until Epiphany (January 6). No football on TV if I have anything to say about it! I used to attend Christmas Eve services, but the beauty of the service varies and I haven't found one to match the carols, Bible readings, and Christmas pageant that we used to have at Epiphany Episcopal Church in Flagstaff when I was a kid. (Some years we actually held the service on the Potters' farm (really) north of town, with a real stable. The animals were moved, though, so it was just kids playing Mary, Joseph, the innkeeper and his wife, and an angel, with the rest of the congregation passing the flame from a candle and singing Christmas carols. One year, my sister was (mis)cast as the angel and I was the innkeeper's wife with a blanket or towel over my head and a backwards bathrobe. Fortunately, there was no snow that year, so I didn't need to worry about slipping, but it was very cold. I remember that the lantern I was holding (which could have started a fire if I'd dropped it) swung backward and burned my wrist, but I didn't gasp or make a sound because I was playing my part (and worrying about my sister falling off the roof she was standing on). I miss those days! Carol, also missing the white Christmases she used to have in Flagstaff, including one year (1967) with seven feet of snow! From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 21 21:17:20 2007 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 21:17:20 -0000 Subject: what's your Xmas look like? In-Reply-To: <3EBC8113FA09F449B6CC44C847E510911CDFC631A5@QUTEXMBX02.qut.edu.au> Message-ID: Sharon: > What's eggnog? How do you make it? The Green bean casserole sounds good too! > Carol responds: What's eggnog? I thought it was a traditional English drink, but evidently it didn't get imported to Australia! (If it isn't mentioned in the Potter books, it ought to be, I would think.) However, I'm American and could be entirely mistaken about eggnog and England. However, I get to "How To of the Day" on my "iGoogle" homepage, and today's how-to just happens to be "How to Make Eggnog" (the alcohol is optional). Rather than copying and pasting the recipe, I'll just provide the link. Anyway, eggnog is a thick, rich, sweet, spicy drink rather like liquid custard. I buy the nonalcoholic variety, usually the Sharmrock brand, which comes in festive plastic bottles decorated with cows in Santa costumes (I could swear they used to be a red-and-grean tartan plaid): http://shamrockesl.com/images/prod-egg&hvycream-pic.jpg BTW, I forgot to say that the high temperature on Christmas Day will be in the low 60s F here, about 15 degrees Celsius/Centigrade. My Remembrall is glowing red, telling me that I've forgotten to post some other detail as well, but, like Neville, I can't remember what I've forgotten. Carol, whose mother used to make what she called eggnog from beaten eggs, milk, sugar, and nutmeg until she (my mother) decided that raw egg white was bad for us From n2fgc at arrl.net Fri Dec 21 21:54:54 2007 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Lee Storm(God Is The Healing Force)) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 16:54:54 -0500 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000301c8441c$1f187a10$67a4a8c0@FRODO> I'm always wishing people Merry Christmas, not happy holiday. Those I know are Hanukkah people, then I wish them a Happy and Blessed Hanukkah. If someone wishes me a good holiday, I smile and wish the person a Merry Christmas (or, sometimes, a Happy Christmas.) :-) Cheers, Lee :-) Wishing you all a Happy Christmas! :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at arrl.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at optonline.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Fri Dec 21 21:58:26 2007 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 21:58:26 -0000 Subject: Whoo-Hoo! December Boys on DVD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > Just came from the local Movie Gallery, and they have a copy > of 'December Boys' for rent. Unfortunately, they had ONLY > ONE copy and it was rented out. But I'm going to go back > midweek and see if it is available. > > Steve/bboyminn > Geoff: I thought I'd seen that it was coming out in March or thereabouts in the UK..... Mark you, it seems to have been a rather shy little flower; I can't recall seeing it advertised anywhere when it was out on release and haven't seen it as a result. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 21 22:02:50 2007 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 22:02:50 -0000 Subject: "The Hobbit" to be produced after all Message-ID: Peter Jackson and New Line have finally come to terms and he'll be making "the Hobbit" after all! At any rate, he'll be executive producer for "the Hobbit" and its sequel (????). I don't know whether he'll be directing or not. http://www.newline.com/press/pr_2007-12-18_announcingthehobbit.html Carol, a bit frustrated because she went to another window to copy a link and lost the message she was posting From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 21 22:22:52 2007 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 22:22:52 -0000 Subject: Advent calendars Message-ID: I just lost a post on Advent calendars, which is the topic that momentarily slipped my memory. (Susan's post reminded me. thanks, Susan!) Rather than repeat the whole post, I'll just say that I have a lovely Advent calendar from the 1970s that I still use because I can't find one anywhere as nice to replace it. (It's free-standing, with the shepherds on one side, the Three Kings on the other, and the inn in the middle.) the windows of the inn open to show a picture and a Bible verse (King James), and the double doors open on the 24th to reveal a manger scene. I also have an Advent wreath and light the proper purple and/or pink candles for each Sunday in December. For anyone who's interested, there's a beautiful interactive Advent calendar with scenes from "The Nativity Story" and Bible verses (most of them from a modern translation) at http://www.thenativitystory.com/advent-calendar.html I know Advent is almost over, but you can use it again next year. (I downloaded mine last year and it works just as well this year.) Each day in December, a different star lights up. (You can still see the pictures and verses from the earlier days.) You can choose either flutes or strings for the music. Carol, still wondering how "Happy holidays" could ever have (nearly) replaced "Merry Christmas" in a country (the U.S.) in which 94 percent of the population celebrates Christmas From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Fri Dec 21 22:46:09 2007 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 22:46:09 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" wrote: > > More and more people on TV shows and in advertising are saying "Happy > holidays!" instead of Christmas. I could see that if Hanukkah > coincided with Christmas as it did last year, but to me it seems like > they really mean "Mwerry Christmas" but are afraid to say it. Holiday > cards? Holiday trees? Surely, they mean Christmas cards and Christmas > trees. (I'm waiting for "holiday carols," which will surely be next, > except that Christmas carols seem to have been replaced by generic > winter songs like "Jingle Bells" and "Winter Wonderland." And while > it's still okay to mention Santa Claus and Rudolph the Red-nosed > Reindeer because "Christmas is for children," it's not okay to mention > Jesus or angels, and even some Christians object to mentioning Mary > even though the original Christmas story involves her rather prominently. Geoff: Is 25th December "Winter Day"? No, it's "Christmas Day". WoW! Here in the UK, the word Christmas is always used in official references to these holidays, except for a few PC councils who insist on their staff talking about "Winter Festival" or something equally bland. There does seem to be an agenda in some areas to undermine our Christian foundations. In my area, the school holidays in the Spring of 2008 are being divorced from the dates of Easter ostensibly because of its early date but that has never bothered officialdom in the past. I agree that I would have no objection to being wished "Happy Hanukkah" by a Jewish friend. I always send a card at Christmas to a former teaching colleague who is a Hindu and he usually sends me a Christmas card in return!! With reference to Mary, all Christians accept that she played a special role as the mother of Jesus, who was God in human form. However, some of us, including myself, do not accept that some of the teaching about her, especially by the Catholic church, including Marian worship and the Immaculate Conception, are not Biblical. Carol: > I'm not proselytizing, but I believe in *Christmas*, > complete with all the traditional trimmings, from > Handel's "Messiah" to a real Christmas tree (I can > live with needles on the carpet; I can't stand fake > trees). Geoff: Speaking as a Christian, I quite agree with you. Christmas carols, mince pies, turkey - bring them on. :-) We went to an artificial tree a few years ago, when our real one had shed all its needles by Christmas Day! From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Fri Dec 21 22:49:43 2007 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 22:49:43 -0000 Subject: "The Hobbit" to be produced after all In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" wrote: Carol: > Peter Jackson and New Line have finally come to terms and he'll be > making "the Hobbit" after all! At any rate, he'll be executive > producer for "the Hobbit" and its sequel (????). I don't know whether > he'll be directing or not. Geoff: But he's already made the sequel - it's called "The Lord of the Rings". :-) From s.hayes at qut.edu.au Sat Dec 22 00:25:48 2007 From: s.hayes at qut.edu.au (Sharon Hayes) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 10:25:48 +1000 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: what's your Xmas look like? In-Reply-To: References: <3EBC8113FA09F449B6CC44C847E510911CDFC631A5@QUTEXMBX02.qut.edu.au>, Message-ID: <3EBC8113FA09F449B6CC44C847E510911CDFC631AB@QUTEXMBX02.qut.edu.au> Sharon: > What's eggnog? How do you make it? The Green bean casserole sounds good too! > Carol responds: What's eggnog? I thought it was a traditional English drink, but evidently it didn't get imported to Australia! (If it isn't mentioned in the Potter books, it ought to be, I would think.) However, I'm American and could be entirely mistaken about eggnog and England. Sharon again: No we've never had eggnog although I had guessed it was some kind of eggy drink. I don't think you can buy it here, at least I've not seen it and I've never heard of anyone who's made it. Coould be that it doesn't suit our climate, maybe? Thanks for the link. 60F sounds rather nice. It will be around 100F here. And we'll probably get a storm on Tuesday afternoon, which will make everything really, really steamy. From blue_dragon_53 at yahoo.com.au Sat Dec 22 00:44:33 2007 From: blue_dragon_53 at yahoo.com.au (Blue Dragon) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 16:44:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] what's your Xmas look like? Message-ID: <571719.80692.qm@web37106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Another Aussie here! I live in Perth, and this year the forecast for Christmas Day is 38C (100.4F). I, too would love to see what a white Christmas would be like. I've never seen snow. There's only one place in Western Australia that we get snow (on very rare occasions), and even though I've been to that place - Bluff Knoll in the Stirling Ranges - it was very warm when we got there! Our two sons and one son's girlfriend will be coming on Christmas Day. When everyone gets here, we will open presents, then sit, eat and enjoy each other's company. We will be having cold ham, turkey and crayfish (rock lobster), along with a variety of salads for lunch. This'll be followed by a chocolate macadamia pudding (sounds rather rich) with brandy custard. We don't often have both sons visit at the same time, but they're always here for Christmas. I'm looking forward to it. Blue Dragon ----- Original Message ---- From: Sharon Hayes To: "HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com" Sent: Thursday, 20 December, 2007 5:29:58 PM Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] what's your Xmas look like? Hi all, I am wondering what other people's Xmas is looking like. Living in Australia, we are in the middle of summer and so it's hot, rainy, and humid. For Xmas dinner we are having BBQ'd salmon fillets, sliced turkey breast, salad and champagne. We'll lounge on the deck and after lunch take a walk along the beach nearby. I am SOOOOOO wanting a white Xmas right now!!! I've never had one, and since a lot of you lovely people live in the northern hemisphere, I would really love it if you could post what you're doing and what it will be like. What is the weather like and what will you be eating and doing next Tuesday? Sharon, who thinks Xmas in Scotland would be about the nicest, cosiest, freezing cold way to spend the holidays, instead of sweltering here with the aircon cranked on high. Make the switch to the world's best email. Get the new Yahoo!7 Mail now. www.yahoo7.com.au/worldsbestemail [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Schlobin at aol.com Sat Dec 22 00:52:32 2007 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 00:52:32 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Well, not everyone celebrates Christmas. As JKR said, even though she's a Christian, Hogwarts is a multi faith school. If someone wishes me a Merry Christmas, I assume their intent is good and smile and say the same to you. However, I feel it is far more courteous to say "happy holidays" or even "happy holidays if you're celebrating." However, I'd never wish someone a Merry Christmas unless I was sure they celebrated Christmas. Not even everyone in the U.S. is a Christian. There are pagans who celebrate the Solstice, and Jews, and Buddhists and Hindis...and people who practice no religion at all. There are people who celebrate Christmas as a secular holiday.... I understand everyone's intent is pleasant, but I personally don't understand why anyone would want to insist that "everyone" should celebrate Christmas -- feels a bit ethnocentric to me... The other thing that I learned because I've worked at various types of shelters and in transitional housing, is that not everyone wants to be reminded of the holidays. One friend of mine said she wanted not freedom of religion, but freedom "from religion." I know people who can't stand the constant Christmas carols, and decorations, and the fact that every thing shuts down for a Christian holiday. I know others who do celebrate the birth of Christ, but are disgusted with the blatant commercialism and the pressure to buy, buy, buy... For some people, holidays bring up grief, old disappointments, shame that they are poor and don't have enough money to buy their children everything they see on television, and the stuff that all their friends have... Holidays are some of the times that people are at the highest risk for suicide. People believe that you're supposed to be with friends and families at the holidays, and if they are alone, it's very, very difficult. It was fascinating being in southeast Asia where most people were Buddhists, their major holiday was Tet, and almost no one celebrated Christmas. Susan From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 22 01:51:12 2007 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 01:51:12 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "susanmcgee48176" wrote: > > Well, not everyone celebrates Christmas. As JKR said, even though > she's a Christian, Hogwarts is a multi faith school. > > If someone wishes me a Merry Christmas, I assume their intent is good > and smile and say the same to you. However, I feel it is far more > courteous to say "happy holidays" or even "happy holidays if you're > celebrating." > > However, I'd never wish someone a Merry Christmas unless I was sure > they celebrated Christmas. Not even everyone in the U.S. is a > Christian. There are pagans who celebrate the Solstice, and Jews, and > Buddhists and Hindis...and people who practice no religion at all. > There are people who celebrate Christmas as a secular holiday.... > > I understand everyone's intent is pleasant, but I personally don't > understand why anyone would want to insist that "everyone" should > celebrate Christmas -- feels a bit ethnocentric to me... > > Alla: Agreed, and to go a little bit further - I totally do not mind and acknowledge strangers and people who do not know me well wishing me Merry Christmas, really. But I do feel a bit annoyed - not offended, but annoyed if people who KNOW me well would wish me Merry Christmas instead of Happy holidays or happy new year. Again, I would expect it ONLY from my closest friends, I certainly do not expect everybody to remember that. I am jewish, I do not celebrate Christmas, at the same time I am jewish person who grew up in soviet union, so as many jews there I was not practicing judaism basically ( NOT all, definitely, there were jews who practiced and went to jail because of it, etc, but many did not practice) and only started learning about it when I was an adult. So it is not correct really to say that I celebrate Chanukkah either. I mean, I like it, but this is not the holiday I grew up with, so tradition is very new. But another reason why I do prefer to receive Happy holidays is because I do LOVE New Year, it is my favorite holiday ever since I was a child and always will be. I do put a tree, but it is a new year tree for me and it bears no chrismas associations for me. So, yeah, Happy holidays :) Alla From americanghosttour at yahoo.com Sat Dec 22 02:23:57 2007 From: americanghosttour at yahoo.com (americanghosttour) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 02:23:57 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Carol: > More and more people on TV shows and in advertising are saying > "Happy holidays!" instead of Christmas. I could see that if > Hanukkah coincided with Christmas as it did last year, but to > me it seems like they really mean "Mwerry Christmas" but are > afraid to say it. > Carol, wondering what the reaction of others on the list would > be to being wished "Merry Christmas" by a stranger or casual > acquaintance, whether or not they celebrate it americanghosttour: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas", you ask? That is because you celebrate that holiday. For the rest of us, it is really a bit depressing to be dragged into your holiday. I have nothing against Christmas or anyone who celebrates it, but I don't. I'm Wiccan We celebrate Yule. (Most of your modern Christmas traditions come from our ancient ones, btw.) But if I dare say, "Blessed Yule" to someone at work, I would never hear the end of it. It's best to say HAPPY HOLIDAYS and include everyone, rather than alienating anyone. No reason to force your beliefs on everyone you meet, even if you are just feeling festive. From jnferr at gmail.com Sat Dec 22 03:15:19 2007 From: jnferr at gmail.com (Janette) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 21:15:19 -0600 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8ee758b40712211915l3642649aq71c728eb2cfee54c@mail.gmail.com> On 12/21/07, susanmcgee48176 wrote: I understand everyone's intent is pleasant, but I personally don't understand why anyone would want to insist that "everyone" should celebrate Christmas -- feels a bit ethnocentric to me... montims: I agree with this and other posters. If anyone wishes me Happy Christmas, I thank them. But I am not Christian, and I don't know the religion of anyone I speak to, so I am happy to wish Happy Holidays. The reason why I included the above, while snipping the rest of Susan's post, is that it reminds me of the reaction of visiting Brits when being constantly told to have a nice day in every shop and restaurant. It used to irritate me intensely, though now I let it go, but while wellmeaning, it is aggravating in many ways... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jenn at phynn-phamily.us Sat Dec 22 03:41:16 2007 From: jenn at phynn-phamily.us (Jenn) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 03:41:16 -0000 Subject: what's your Xmas look like? In-Reply-To: <000c01c84321$b7247260$67a4a8c0@FRODO> Message-ID: The car is packed, the kids are sleeping and I'm insane. I'm driving, by myself, 8 hours north, with a teething 1 year old and a 3 year old whom we think has a mild concussion. (being an RN and knowing what problems to look for does come in handy sometimes- I did get our doc's OK to travel, though) But things can always be worse... last year we had to scrap the whole mission to see my family because the then nearly 2 month old had just gotten out of Children's Hospital of Philadelphia with RSV. I'm really homesick. and my husband can't go with us for work reasons. I just hope the kiddos behave for me- I'm planning to leave as early as I can tomorrow. The good news is that I think Masssachsetts just might have a white Christmas this year. My kids have already gotten presents for Hannukka from my mother-in-law and sister-in- law and Soltice presents from Mummy and Daddy; the three year old was asking for more yesterday, and I told him he had to wait until he was at his Grampa's house. Of course, if you ask him what he wants, all he says is "presants". Favorite thing so far? His bandanna- $1 from the dollar store. Gotta love kids! Anyway, I hope all of you and yours have a great holiday, no matter what you might call it. Jenn/Poppy From predigirl1 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 22 06:12:10 2007 From: predigirl1 at yahoo.com (Alex Hogan) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 22:12:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <235673.38690.qm@web53006.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I'm Wiccan also, but I don't know anybody else that is, so I just go with "Happy Christmas and a Blessed Yule". It throws people off, but the Christmas is in there so they don't really notice! Alex Hogan americanghosttour wrote: > Carol: > More and more people on TV shows and in advertising are saying > "Happy holidays!" instead of Christmas. I could see that if > Hanukkah coincided with Christmas as it did last year, but to > me it seems like they really mean "Mwerry Christmas" but are > afraid to say it. > Carol, wondering what the reaction of others on the list would > be to being wished "Merry Christmas" by a stranger or casual > acquaintance, whether or not they celebrate it americanghosttour: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas", you ask? That is because you celebrate that holiday. For the rest of us, it is really a bit depressing to be dragged into your holiday. I have nothing against Christmas or anyone who celebrates it, but I don't. I'm Wiccan We celebrate Yule. (Most of your modern Christmas traditions come from our ancient ones, btw.) But if I dare say, "Blessed Yule" to someone at work, I would never hear the end of it. It's best to say HAPPY HOLIDAYS and include everyone, rather than alienating anyone. No reason to force your beliefs on everyone you meet, even if you are just feeling festive. --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From n2fgc at arrl.net Sat Dec 22 06:43:23 2007 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Lee Storm(God Is The Healing Force)) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 01:43:23 -0500 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: <235673.38690.qm@web53006.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000001c84465$f3212340$67a4a8c0@FRODO> |I'm Wiccan also, but I don't know anybody else that is, so I |just go with "Happy Christmas and a Blessed Yule". It throws |people off, but the Christmas is in there so they don't really notice! | Alex Hogan [Lee]: Well, I have no problem with Yule, as that term also is used by Christians to refer to Christmas, as in , "Make the Yuletide Gay," and other such examples. So, have a Cool Yule, Happy Christmas, Sensational Solstice, and everything else. Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at arrl.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at optonline.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From Schlobin at aol.com Sat Dec 22 06:56:41 2007 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 06:56:41 -0000 Subject: Advent calendars In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > Carol, still wondering how "Happy holidays" could ever have (nearly) > replaced "Merry Christmas" in a country (the U.S.) in which 94 percent > of the population celebrates Christmas > Well, only 79% of the population is Christian...so..... Susan From tonks_op at yahoo.com Sat Dec 22 07:11:28 2007 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 07:11:28 -0000 Subject: what's your Xmas look like? In-Reply-To: <3EBC8113FA09F449B6CC44C847E510911CDFC631A3@QUTEXMBX02.qut.edu.au> Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Sharon Hayes wrote: > > Hi all, I am wondering what other people's Xmas is looking like. Living in Australia, we are in the middle of summer and so it's hot, rainy, and humid. For Xmas dinner we are having BBQ'd salmon fillets, sliced turkey breast, salad and champagne. We'll lounge on the deck and after lunch take a walk along the beach nearby. > > I am SOOOOOO wanting a white Xmas right now!!! I've never had one, and since a lot of you lovely people live in the northern hemisphere, I would really love it if you could post what you're doing and what it will be like. What is the weather like and what will you be eating and doing next Tuesday? Tonks: I don't think I would like Christmas in a warm place. Just wouldn't seem 'right'. I went to a conference once in Arizona in December and it was so strange to me. There were Palm trees with Christmas lights and poinsettias right next to petunias in the outdoor gardens. Just seemed so weird to see that!! My situation is about as far from Steve???s as anything can be. I envy his family. I am an only child of older parents and now have no living relatives. I have no children. I must throw myself on the ???kindness of strangers???, so to speak. Actually I have a good friend who for the past 15 years has taken me to her relatives for Christmas. First we went to her Aunt???s till she died about 10 years ago. Now I get invited with my friend to be with her sister and niece at the niece???s house. The 4 of us usually do all of the Holidays together. Except for that one year when they all got invited to another relative???s and I ended up with no where to go on Thanksgiving. ;-( Thank God it wasn???t Christmas!! Last year the sister and niece went to Australia for a trip in mid- December, but came back in time for Christmas. Again, Thank God!! I can???t cook. I don???t have a tree because it is too hard for me to put one up anymore, but I love them. And the niece always has a real tree. We will go to her house in the early afternoon for dinner of Roast Chicken, mashed potatoes, dressing, squash, fancy coffee and cherry pie with ice cream for desert. Sometimes she has a good fruitcake too. I can???t drink, but she also serves wine. I use to bring the green bean casserole, but she wants to do all the cooking now. (Come on, don???t laugh, my cooking isn???t THAT bad, there are other reasons why we are asked not to bring anything. ;-) After dinner, but before desert, we gather around the Christmas tree and open our presents. There are always LOTS of presents for all of us and it takes a long time. We listen to Christmas music and open our stocking last after desert. It is a very nice day, and I am always so grateful to have someone to spend it with. On Christmas Eve, I go to church and after church I drive around listening to Christmas music and looking at all the Christmas lights on the houses for about an hour, then go home and sleep late on Christmas morning. It snowed here about 6 inches last week, but is melting now. That is OK. A little snow for a white Christmas is nice, but too hard for me to walk in. I use to love the snow, but I can???t walk that well anymore so now I like it cold and dry. But I still do like an old fashion blizzard now and then, as long as it melts fast and I am not stuck out in it. And A Very Merry Christmas to you all! Tonks_op PS. Lee - you should use fresh been for the casserole, the frozen are not that good. And do the directions exactly as on the Campbell???s can. IMO. Ah... and COOK the bean before you put them in the oven.. I made that mistake one year with the frozen ones. (OK guys stop laughing... that is NOT the reason we don't bring anything to dinner anymore! ;-) From bboyminn at yahoo.com Sat Dec 22 07:25:07 2007 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 07:25:07 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- "Carol" wrote: > Carol: > > More and more people on TV shows and in advertising are > saying "Happy Holidays!" instead of Christmas. I could see > that if Hanukkah coincided with Christmas as it did last > year, but to me it seems like they really mean "Merry > Christmas" but are afraid to say it. .... bboyminn: It seems to me that in a world that is not run amok with political correctness, I, who does celebrate Christmas, would uniformly say to others 'Merry Christmas', and they would respond in accordance with their own holiday tradition. For example, if i said 'Merry Christmas' to a Jewish person, they would respond with 'Happy Hanukkah', and we would both be happy in celebrating in our own personal way. If I said 'Merry Christmas' to certain black persons, they would respond with 'Happy Kwanza'. If it was a secular person or a person of a faith not celebrating Christmas, they would respond with 'Happy Holidays', 'Seasons Greeting', or whatever is appropriate to their belief system. If they were a grouchy curmudgeon, I would be content with a 'bah humbug' in response. It seems that when I greet someone with a seasonal greeting, I should greet them in a way consistent with what I am celebrating, and they should respond with something consistent with what they are celebrating even if all they are celebrating is the end of the calendar year. '...and a Happy New Year to you'. I doesn't seem as complicated as political correctness has made it. Steve/bboyminn From tonks_op at yahoo.com Sat Dec 22 07:58:40 2007 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 07:58:40 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Steve said: > It seems to me that in a world that is not run amok with > political correctness, I, who does celebrate Christmas, > would uniformly say to others 'Merry Christmas', and they > would respond in accordance with their own holiday tradition. Tonks: Thank you!! I agree 110%. Our culture here in the U.S. has changed so very much in the past 30 years or so. This is why the younger folks here think in terms of "Holidays" and us old fogies think "Christmas". Actually the season of Christmas, while a religious celebration, is not really seen as such by most of the people who do celebrate it. When I was a child my parents and I were not Christian, but we had a tree and celebrated Christmas. It was the time that Santa came. That is all I knew. I lived in a small midwestern town. There were no Jewish people, Black people, or anyone other than WASP's and a few Roman Catholics. There was no other holiday except New Years. There is a country song called "Different World" and it is about how it was when most of us, who are now 60, were young. Stores were closed on Sunday, etc. Because back then the U.S. was basically a Christian country. It didn't matter if you went to church or not. You just did what everyone else did and followed the same morals as everyone else. Because the society was based on Christian principles. Most of us didn't really know or think about it. It just was the way it was. Sort of like it is in some of the Middle Eastern countries now. Their laws are based on their religion. And so it was, and still is, for the most part here in the U.S. Things have gotten more liberal now, and I think as far as many laws and social customs go that is good. You do not have to be a Christian to celebrate Christmas. Because in the U.S. Christmas has become a secular holiday too. I don't know why people make such a big deal of trying to deny that the Holiday we celebrate on Dec. 25th is CHRISTMAS. If you are not a Christian, no big deal. It is the time that Santa comes. That is all. I know Jewish people who have a Christmas tree for their kids and Santa visits. I see nothing wrong with that. It is just a part of our culture in the U.S. So a Merry Christmas to you!! Christ or Santa, I don't care, just say "Merry Christmas"!. Tonks_op From leekaiwen at yahoo.com Sat Dec 22 09:35:24 2007 From: leekaiwen at yahoo.com (Lee Kaiwen) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 17:35:24 +0800 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: <8ee758b40712211915l3642649aq71c728eb2cfee54c@mail.gmail.com> References: <8ee758b40712211915l3642649aq71c728eb2cfee54c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <476CDA5C.1090405@yahoo.com> Janette blessed us with this gem On 22/12/2007 11:15: > ...so I am happy to wish Happy Holidays. A rose by any other name. IMHO. What's the difference between "Merry Christmas" and "Happy Holy Days"? Last I checked, the focal point of "the Holidays" is still December 25, which my (shamefully un-PC) calendar still labels Christmas Day. It IS still Christmas, whether one happens to be Christian or not. I live in Taiwan, where I have for many years wished all my students a Merry Christmas at this time of year, even though the vast majority are Buddhist. I've never gotten anything other than smiles and "Merry Christmases" in return. And it isn't even a holiday here. Judging by this thread, at least, that good ole holiday cheer appears to be in rather shorter supply Stateside these days. Merry Christmas everyone! CJ From bboyminn at yahoo.com Sat Dec 22 10:09:19 2007 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 10:09:19 -0000 Subject: Celebrity Gossip - Dan R. buys $4mil NY Flat Message-ID: In case you haven't already seen the news, Dan Radcliffe has bought an apartment in SoHo New York for a little over US$4,000,000 under the name of his corporation Gilmore Jacobs LTD. You can allegedly see the apartment at - http://www.bergproperties.com/blog/?s=Daniel+Radcliffe Dan allegedly immediately put the place up for sub-lease or rental at US$20,000/month. That's $240,000/yr for reference. for rent, description - http://www.halstead.com/detail.aspx?id=1495559 I do object to the news media trying to inflate this event into a news worthy story by continually referring to it as a 'penthouse', when it is really a 2 bedroom apartment on the 5th floor of a 13 story building. The building does have amenities such as large swimming pool, sauna, steam room, and concierge services. Again, keep in mind this is prime NY real estate. In land tight NY, even a studio apartment in a nice new building is going to cost $1,000,000. A lowly parking spot is probably going to cost $100,000. Since this is a relatively new building in a trendy neighborhood, it is likely a good investments, especially since he is buying when the Pound to Dollar exchange rate is in his favor, and the real estate market is down. Also, if he sublets it, or has a live-in roommate/caretaker, it will pay for itself in 15 years. Plus, by paying in cash, he can save a small fortune in mortgage interest. Though, he will likely have substantial condo association fees and taxes. The photos at the site above show clearly, if we can trust them, that this is a very nice apartment, and probably well worth the money. It is 1,843 sq ft which is a nice size 2 bedroom, but nothing excessive. By illustration, if we make it a simple square box, it is 43 feet on a side. If we, again for illustration, quarter that, we get four rooms of roughly 20 ft X 20 ft. So, I don't see this as an extravagant apartment. It does hint at the possibility that Dan might be leaning more toward theater acting in the future. NY is the center for theater; if he was pursuing movie acting, likely he would get something in Los Angeles. In any event, paying cash, with a favorable exchange rate, and in a down real estate market, it is probably a wise investment. If he gets a reliable roommate, or rents in out when he is not there, that tremendously offsets the cost. Just passing it along. Steve/bboyminn From leekaiwen at yahoo.com Sat Dec 22 10:12:26 2007 From: leekaiwen at yahoo.com (Lee Kaiwen) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 18:12:26 +0800 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <476CE30A.20809@yahoo.com> americanghosttour blessed us with this gem On 22/12/2007 10:23: > Wiccan We celebrate Yule. (Most of your modern Christmas traditions > come from our ancient ones, btw.) But if I dare say, "Blessed Yule" Well, debatable as your premise is, in that case I would expect Wiccans of all people to be most at home in the holiday, rather than (apparently) dead-set against enjoying it. As for myself, I've been singing "yuletide carols" since I was young enough to mouth the words to "Harold Angels" in church, so I'm not sure why your coworkers are such a contrary bunch. americanghosttour: > No reason to force your beliefs on everyone you meet, Alla: > I personally don't understand why anyone would want to insist that > "everyone" should celebrate Christmas When did wishing someone a "Merry Christmas" became tantemount to trying to force religion (whatever that means) on anyone? It's an expression of good will, period. No one's asking you to celebrate the holiday, just hoping your December 25th is a happy one. Alla: > It was fascinating being in southeast Asia where most people were > Buddhists, their major holiday was Tet, and almost no one celebrated > Christmas. As I mentioned in a previous post, I live in east Asia, where nearly everyone is Buddhist, Christmas is not a holiday at all -- and no one takes offense at being wished "Merry Christmas". Alla: > not everyone wants to be reminded of the holidays. One friend of mine > said she wanted not freedom of religion, but freedom "from religion." Which, near as I can tell, is code for, "I never want to hear religion mentioned", so all those Christians should just keep their religion to themselves. So everything is to be tolerated and supported EXCEPT public displays of religion? I hate to sound callous, but I think your friend needs to learn a little more tolerance herself. CJ (who just can't believe so many folk take offense at being wished happiness) From macloudt at yahoo.co.uk Sat Dec 22 11:04:30 2007 From: macloudt at yahoo.co.uk (Mary Ann) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 11:04:30 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Steve wrote: > It seems that when I greet someone with a seasonal greeting, > I should greet them in a way consistent with what I am > celebrating, and they should respond with something consistent > with what they are celebrating even if all they are celebrating > is the end of the calendar year. '...and a Happy New Year to > you'. I agree, Steve. When I wish people a Merry Christmas I'm not assuming that they celebrate it. I grew up in Toronto, the most multicultural city in the world, and people who didn't know my religion would wish me a Happy Hannukah, or the blessings of Allah, or a Happy Solstice, etc. When wishing someone a Merry Christmas (and I don't know their religion, if any) I'm wishing them the happiness I have during my religous holiday. I'm not pushing my religious beliefs on them. There is a big difference between the two situations. > I doesn't seem as complicated as political correctness has > made it. If Christmas as a religious festival is politically incorrect then, IMO surely the secular Chrismtas hoo-hah, mainly the rampant consumer spending, should surely also be banned. And the Christmas/Yule tree. And the chocolate Yule log. And a whole load of other things which would cripple the economy of many countries. As someone with a double major in sociology and cultural anthropology what drives me nuts about political correctness is how it picks and chooses. The religious aspects of Christmas, for example, are considered to be wrong to emphasise but the secular trappings based upon that religion (which, in turn, are based on the old Celtic religions, therefore banning two religions at once) are OK. Why? Surely if any religious festival is considered offensive then *all* aspects of it should be banned. Or would that be inconvenient, and spoil the fun of a lot of non- believers? Hmmm... If I offend some people when wishing them a Merry Christmas (or Happy Christmas, as is said in the UK) I certainly don't mean to do so. I'm wishing them the joy and happiness that the religious event brings to me. If they are still offended, I consider that to be their problem. It may sound callous to some but the point of religious freedom, IMO, is the freedom to practice one's religion as well as the freedom to not practice any or all religions. Mary Ann, off to bake another batch of Christmas cookies From slytherin_jenn at yahoo.co.uk Sat Dec 22 12:09:06 2007 From: slytherin_jenn at yahoo.co.uk (slytherin_jenn) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 12:09:06 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Celoneth: I think one of the issues is (at least in the US) that some people have decided to make Christmas a political issue & saying "Merry Christmas" as a political statement. That and a number of gov't actions by people who don't understand the religious freedom/establishment clause of the Constitution & have gone overboard out of fear of lawsuits (which they do on a lot of other issues as well). Personally, I don't celebrate Christmas but I love all the lights and the trees (though I could do w/o the 24 hr christmas music and store crowds) and I don't care what I'm greeted w/ as long as its an actual well wish. As far as greeting others, I usually wish "happy holidays" unless I know what holidays the person celebrates. Celoneth From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 22 14:40:21 2007 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 14:40:21 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: <476CDA5C.1090405@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Lee Kaiwen >A rose by any other name. IMHO. What's the difference between "Merry >Christmas" and "Happy Holy Days"? > Last I checked, the focal point of "the Holidays" is still December 25, > Which my (shamefully un-PC) calendar still labels Christmas Day. It IS > still Christmas, whether one happens to be Christian or not. Alla: Well, the focal point of **my** holidays ( and please, holy-days? The root of the word does not mean that it still has the same meaning as it was originally, in Russian for example the word is completely different, while Christmas still has similar meaning) is not December 25, so I absolutely see the point. It is December 31 and January 1. It is when we open the presents, when we wish each other happy new year, party that night. And why would you wish me Merry Christmas if you know what I want to hear? Isn't what I want should matter the most? Aren't you wishing something to me? Or are you saying it to please **you** (generic you, I mean)? If you are wishing it to please yourself, then sure, I get it, otherwise, no I don't. As I said, I do not mind when somebody wishes me merry Christmas, if that person does not know me. If that person DOES know me, I just consider it to be a little bit disrespectful. And it has nothing to do with pushing religion, since Chanukah for me is not holiday that I learned when I was a kid either, I mean not religious in a sense that I am not practicing. I consider myself a believer, but I do not think that judaism or christianity would agree with me. I just believe in G-d, that's all, I do not practice. It has to do with knowing your friend and wishing the happiness for the holidays I celebrate. This year I made SURE for example to send cards to majority of my coworkers and guess what, it never entered my mind to wish to people anything other than Merry Christmas, but only because I knew that they ARE celebrating Christmas. I sent happy New Year cards to couple of Jewish coworkers. I just feel that when I do the greetings, I should greet the person with her holiday NOT mine. Alla (NOT ALLA): > I personally don't understand why anyone would want to insist that > "everyone" should celebrate Christmas Lee Kaiwen: When did wishing someone a "Merry Christmas" became tantamount to trying to force religion (whatever that means) on anyone? It's an expression of good will, period. No one's asking you to celebrate the holiday, just hoping your December 25th is a happy one. Alla: I did not say the words that you attributed to me above, somebody else did. I hope I explained my POV. I do not think that when somebody wishes me Merry Christmas they force anything on me, but when this person is my **CLOSE** friend, I find it a bit disrespectful and sort of lazy if she does not remember what holiday is my favorite holiday of the year. Again, I do not make a big deal out of it since I know intent is good, but from my close friends, even more than happy holidays, I want to hear happy New Year and nothing more. Alla ( NOT ALLA): > It was fascinating being in Southeast Asia where most people were > Buddhists, their major holiday was Tet, and almost no one celebrated > Christmas. Lee Kaiwen: As I mentioned in a previous post, I live in East Asia, where nearly everyone is Buddhist, Christmas is not a holiday at all -- and no one takes offense at being wished "Merry Christmas". Alla: That's great, only I did not say those words again, somebody else did, LOL. Are you sure though that they do not take offense or they just do not tell you if they are? I mean obviously you are living there, so you know better and I never been there. Alla (NOT ALLA): > Not everyone wants to be reminded of the holidays. One friend of mine > said she wanted not freedom of religion, but freedom "from religion." Lee Kaiwen: Which, near as I can tell, is code for, "I never want to hear religion mentioned", so all those Christians should just keep their religion to themselves. So everything is to be tolerated and supported EXCEPT public displays of religion? I hate to sound callous, but I think your friend needs to learn a little more tolerance herself. Alla: It is rather bizarre conversation we are having, since those are not my words again. CJ (who just can't believe so many folk take offense at being wished happiness) Alla: I take annoyance if my friend is lazy to remember what I celebrate, I do not take annoyance at strangers who do not know that. If they do know that and still wish me Merry Christmas, well it depends on what their intent is. If the intent is to annoy me, I will be annoyed. And it has nothing to do with political correctness, it has to do with rather bold assumption people would make. I think Christmas is a BEATIFUL religious holiday and people should be able to enjoy it as much as they wish, but it is not mine. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 22 14:49:07 2007 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 14:49:07 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Mary Ann: If I offend some people when wishing them a Merry Christmas (or Happy Christmas, as is said in the UK) I certainly don't mean to do so. I'm wishing them the joy and happiness that the religious event brings to me. If they are still offended, I consider that to be their problem. It may sound callous to some but the point of religious freedom, IMO, is the freedom to practice one's religion as well as the freedom to not practice any or all religions. Mary Ann, off to bake another batch of Christmas cookies Alla: Hee, should have combined it :) That I understand, sure. This rationale of wishing Merry christmas. You want to share your joy with me. But would you then wish me joy on my holiday as well? I mean I would wish you Merry Christmas, TOTALLY, because it is your holiday, you know? I guess I was majorly confused since I thought I should greet with the holiday you practice and I always did that and vice versa - you should greet with holiday I do. NOT for political correctness, but to show that we know what each other does, celebrates, likes. IMO, Alla, wants some cookies :) From sherriola at gmail.com Sat Dec 22 15:00:11 2007 From: sherriola at gmail.com (Sherry Gomes) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 07:00:11 -0800 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <476d267f.0a528c0a.273f.ffffd81d@mx.google.com> bboyminn: It seems to me that in a world that is not run amok with political correctness, I, who does celebrate Christmas, would uniformly say to others 'Merry Christmas', and they would respond in accordance with their own holiday tradition. Sherry: I work in the admissions department at a well known guide dog school in the US. For years, and even more years, during the fall, the staff would all get together and record a Christmas tape, each staff person recording a personal greeting, and the tapes--actual records once upon a time--go out to every graduate of the organization. I'm a 32 year graduate of the program myself, and every December, I would haunt my mail box waiting the arrival of that tape. Around ten years ago, they started calling it the "Holiday tape" and then in the last couple years, it's become the "end of the year tape". This was my second year on staff, and each year I have defied political correctness and wished the graduates, happy Holidays, Merry Christmas and happy New Year. LOL. The person who handles preparing the tapes now says she wants the tape to reflect the staff's personal beliefs and thoughts, so anyone can say, Merry Christmas, happy Hanukah or any other thing they want. Or nothing, but hi grads this is so-and-so. The interesting thing is that the grads, even those who are not Christian, even nominally enough to celebrate Christmas, mostly resent the descent in to PC-ism and still call it "the Christmas tape". Some of them felt so strongly about it that they wrote to some of the people in upper management to complain about it, and a couple of those people were atheists, Jewish or Buddha. I've finally trained myself to call it the Holiday tape, officially, but I will never call it the "end of the year" tape! LOL. Sherry From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 22 15:07:19 2007 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 15:07:19 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: <476d267f.0a528c0a.273f.ffffd81d@mx.google.com> Message-ID: > Sherry: > > I work in the admissions department at a well known guide dog school in the > US. For years, and even more years, during the fall, the staff would all > get together and record a Christmas tape, each staff person recording a > personal greeting, and the tapes--actual records once upon a time-- go out to > every graduate of the organization. I'm a 32 year graduate of the program > myself, and every December, I would haunt my mail box waiting the arrival of > that tape. Around ten years ago, they started calling it the "Holiday tape" > and then in the last couple years, it's become the "end of the year tape". > This was my second year on staff, and each year I have defied political > correctness and wished the graduates, happy Holidays, Merry Christmas and > happy New Year. LOL. The person who handles preparing the tapes now says > she wants the tape to reflect the staff's personal beliefs and thoughts, so > anyone can say, Merry Christmas, happy Hanukah or any other thing they want. > Or nothing, but hi grads this is so-and-so. The interesting thing is that > the grads, even those who are not Christian, even nominally enough to > celebrate Christmas, mostly resent the descent in to PC-ism and still call > it "the Christmas tape". Some of them felt so strongly about it that they > wrote to some of the people in upper management to complain about it, and a > couple of those people were atheists, Jewish or Buddha. I've finally > trained myself to call it the Holiday tape, officially, but I will never > call it the "end of the year" tape! LOL. Alla: Okay, now this is bizarre, hilariously bizarre. Political correctness at its worst as far as I am concerned. I am sorry Sherry dearest. Oh Oh I love Merry Christmas and Happy New year, totally forgot. Heee, totally love to hear that. Alla From sherriola at gmail.com Sat Dec 22 15:08:15 2007 From: sherriola at gmail.com (Sherry Gomes) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 07:08:15 -0800 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <476d2863.27b38c0a.466e.242c@mx.google.com> Alla: Hee, should have combined it :) That I understand, sure. This rationale of wishing Merry christmas. You want to share your joy with me. But would you then wish me joy on my holiday as well? I mean I would wish you Merry Christmas, TOTALLY, because it is your holiday, you know? Sherry; Yes, my dear Friend, I most heartily wish you happy Chanukah! I don't have an accessible calendar with your holiday dates on it, so consider yourself wished the very happiest of Chanukah! Sherry From sherriola at gmail.com Sat Dec 22 15:12:14 2007 From: sherriola at gmail.com (Sherry Gomes) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 07:12:14 -0800 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <476d2952.15588c0a.10e2.ffffb443@mx.google.com> > Sherry: > > I work in the admissions department at a well known guide dog school in the > US. For years, and even more years, during the fall, the staff would all > get together and record a Christmas tape, each staff person recording a > personal greeting, and the tapes--actual records once upon a time-- go out to > every graduate of the organization. I'm a 32 year graduate of the program > myself, and every December, I would haunt my mail box waiting the arrival of > that tape. Around ten years ago, they started calling it the "Holiday tape" > and then in the last couple years, it's become the "end of the year tape". > This was my second year on staff, and each year I have defied political > correctness and wished the graduates, happy Holidays, Merry Christmas and > happy New Year. LOL. The person who handles preparing the tapes now says > she wants the tape to reflect the staff's personal beliefs and thoughts, so > anyone can say, Merry Christmas, happy Hanukah or any other thing they want. > Or nothing, but hi grads this is so-and-so. The interesting thing is that > the grads, even those who are not Christian, even nominally enough to > celebrate Christmas, mostly resent the descent in to PC-ism and still call > it "the Christmas tape". Some of them felt so strongly about it that they > wrote to some of the people in upper management to complain about it, and a > couple of those people were atheists, Jewish or Buddha. I've finally > trained myself to call it the Holiday tape, officially, but I will never > call it the "end of the year" tape! LOL. Alla: Okay, now this is bizarre, hilariously bizarre. Political correctness at its worst as far as I am concerned. I am sorry Sherry dearest. Oh Oh I love Merry Christmas and Happy New year, totally forgot. Heee, totally love to hear that. Sherry: Yes, you are right, political correctness run amuck! holiday tape works perfectly well for everyone. I have a coworker whose religion does not believe in celebrating Christmas or various other holidays, though she considers herself a Christian. But she finds the name End of the year tape ridiculous. We who know her and respect her, do not wish her a merry Christmas or buy her presents or anything like that. I wished her a happy couple of days off and a happy new year and told her I'd give her something special at some other time of the year, just because. She liked that. Sherry From mwood005 at comcast.net Sat Dec 22 17:56:12 2007 From: mwood005 at comcast.net (melody_wood14) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 17:56:12 -0000 Subject: prayers are needed Message-ID: Hi everyone. I know a little girl Angela she is about 9 years old. Today at 10:00 a.m. she went into surgery for a liver transplant. I am asking for everyones prayers for her and her family as well as the donors family. They both have a long road ahead. Thank you, Melody From anigrrrl2 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 22 18:01:03 2007 From: anigrrrl2 at yahoo.com (Kathryn Lambert) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 10:01:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] prayers are needed In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <764710.61326.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> She's got mine. As I am 23 weeks pregnant with my first little girl...I really understand. I hope they have a wonderful holiday and that everything works out. they'll be in my thoughts. Katie melody_wood14 wrote: Hi everyone. I know a little girl Angela she is about 9 years old. Today at 10:00 a.m. she went into surgery for a liver transplant. I am asking for everyones prayers for her and her family as well as the donors family. They both have a long road ahead. Thank you, Melody --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From macloudt at yahoo.co.uk Sat Dec 22 18:15:13 2007 From: macloudt at yahoo.co.uk (Mary Ann) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 18:15:13 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Alla: > That I understand, sure. This rationale of wishing Merry christmas. > You want to share your joy with me. > > But would you then wish me joy on my holiday as well? > > I mean I would wish you Merry Christmas, TOTALLY, because it is your > holiday, you know? > > > I guess I was majorly confused since I thought I should greet with > the > holiday you practice and I always did that and vice versa - you > should > greet with holiday I do. > > NOT for political correctness, but to show that we know what each > other does, celebrates, likes. Sorry, I should have made it clearer in my first post that, when I've been wished Happy Hannukah, etc it's made my day. Of course I'm pleased as anything that people wish to share their holiday joy with me. Heck, invite me in for the food! ;) I obviously wasn't clear but that was the point I was trying to make in regards to religious freedom. My kids' school doesn't deal with Hannukah since, to my knowledge, there are no Jewish children in the school (a shame, that; I should look into that and nag the right people to change this) but the Hindu festival of Diwali is taught since the UK has a large Hindu minority. The children are taught the Christian nativity story as well. Yes, I said "taught". The Religious Education teacher told me that she's never known so many pupils, the majority of whom are of British descent, to *not* be familiar with the nativity story. For those who don't know, the UK is the *least* religious country in Europe. The cynic in me finds it very ironic that people in the least religious country in Europe are raising a stick about the supposed suppression of "their traditional holiday" in order to not offend "foreigners". This is a cock-and-bull story and is not happening, but is fanned by certain "news"papers that thrive on bashing anything considered to be non-British. That would include me, I guess! :D I went off on a tangent again, didn't I? Good thing you're used to me, Alla! Must check on supper before it burns. I've done that before... Mary Ann, passing over a plate of decorated cookies From leekaiwen at yahoo.com Sun Dec 23 01:38:27 2007 From: leekaiwen at yahoo.com (Lee Kaiwen) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 09:38:27 +0800 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <476DBC13.5050802@yahoo.com> Alla: > ( and please, holy-days? The root of the word does not mean that > it still has the same meaning as it was originally Yes, Holy Days. The people who seem to want to get all bent out of shape over "Christmas" because of it's religious roots seem to overlook the religious roots of "holiday". One might also argue that Christmas, now being largely a secular holiday, no longer bears its original meaning, either. > And why would you wish me Merry Christmas if you > know what I want to hear? Umm, to wish you joy and happiness? Now if you don't WANT to be joyful and happy on Christimas, well... Alla (NOT ALLA): > I personally don't understand why anyone would want ... Lee Kaiwen: > When did wishing someone a "Merry Christmas" ... Alla: > I did not say the words that you attributed to me above, somebody > else did. Oops, you're right. I was trying to combine several posts and got my attributions all skitter-widdle. My apologies both to you and the words' true owner, susanmcgee48176. > when this person is my **CLOSE** friend, I find it a bit disrespectful > and sort of lazy if she does not remember what holiday is my favorite How about if this close friend wishes you joy and happiness on BOTH Christmas and your favorite holiday? CJ From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Dec 23 02:01:54 2007 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 02:01:54 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: <476DBC13.5050802@yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Alla: > > > ( and please, holy-days? The root of the word does not mean that > > it still has the same meaning as it was originally Lee Kaiwen: > Yes, Holy Days. The people who seem to want to get all bent out of shape > over "Christmas" because of it's religious roots seem to overlook the > religious roots of "holiday". One might also argue that Christmas, now > being largely a secular holiday, no longer bears its original meaning, > either. Alla: This word now means all holidays, does it not? And there is nothing religious about a lot of them, so yes I think the word lost its meaning now. IMO of course. Alla: > > when this person is my **CLOSE** friend, I find it a bit disrespectful > > and sort of lazy if she does not remember what holiday is my favorite CJ: > How about if this close friend wishes you joy and happiness on BOTH > Christmas and your favorite holiday? Alla: I have no problem with that whatsoever, as I said before my thing is that I expect from my close friends to know who I am and what I celebrate. And if I hear Merry Christmas and Happy new year as I told Sherry before, I would be totally joyful and happy. It is no big deal in a sense, really, but in a sense for me it is. You have to know me in RL to understand. I go extra mile really and truly for my friends, I make a point to learn about them, because it pleases me to know who the people I love are and do things for them and I want them to do the same for me. Wishing me joy on **my** holiday includes it, since New year is pretty much the ONLY holiday which I celebrate since I was a very little kid. I love season, really and as I said before I put up the tree, which for me is new year tree, but Christmas I do not celebrate, so to go back to the original question that is why I love to hear Happy New year, happy holidays, etc. And also I am not so self absorbed that I would expect this from many people, really. Like I certainly would not expect you to remember that I do not celebrate Christmas. When I say you I mean a vast majority of people on this list, because we are strangers to each other, we are just fellow list members, etc. But there are several people on this list whom I came to know and love as dearly as I love some of my RL friends. I expect more of them because I have more personal relationships with them then just friendly posting relationships with other people. AND I want them to expect the same things and more from me obviously. Alla. From n2fgc at arrl.net Sun Dec 23 02:06:59 2007 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Lee Storm(God Is The Healing Force)) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 21:06:59 -0500 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000c01c84508$80d24d20$67a4a8c0@FRODO> You know, I think all this is starting to get really nit-picky! I know a lot of Jewish people who celebrate or at least enjoy Christmas as well as Hanukkah. One of my best friends was Jewish and loved baking Christmas cookies, and we loved eating them. In the Potter books, the greeting is "Happy Christmas" or "Merry Christmas," the students go home or stay over the Christmas Holidays, they eat Christmas puddings in the great hall decorated with Christmas trees. I'm sure there are students who come from other persuasions but they don't create a brouhaha about the word "Christmas." Now, if they have no problems with Christmas, why should anyone? Perhaps if one thinks of Christmas as a culmination of all the Holidays or Holy Days of the season, life would be less stressed. :-) Just my knut's worth. Peace To All, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at arrl.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at optonline.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Dec 23 02:18:26 2007 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 02:18:26 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: <000c01c84508$80d24d20$67a4a8c0@FRODO> Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Lee Storm(God Is The Healing Force)" wrote: > > You know, I think all this is starting to get really nit-picky! > > I know a lot of Jewish people who celebrate or at least enjoy Christmas as > well as Hanukkah. One of my best friends was Jewish and loved baking > Christmas cookies, and we loved eating them. > Alla: Cookies.... YUM. One girl at work yesterday brought truffles and cookies that she made since several of us are off next week. Other baked christmas chocolate chip cookies - OMG they were divine. I was too lazy to bake so I bought them little Godivas, but that was in a sense nothing new, since I bring chocolate to work very often. They call me chocolate Alla and when they want to tease me they call me easter bunny, LOL. Alla From Schlobin at aol.com Sun Dec 23 02:20:34 2007 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 02:20:34 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: <476CE30A.20809@yahoo.com> Message-ID: > > said she wanted not freedom of religion, but freedom "from religion." > > Which, near as I can tell, is code for, "I never want to hear religion > mentioned", so all those Christians should just keep their religion to > themselves. > > So everything is to be tolerated and supported EXCEPT public displays of > religion? I hate to sound callous, but I think your friend needs to > learn a little more tolerance herself. > > CJ (who just can't believe so many folk take offense at being wished > happiness) > Oh, I don't think she never wants religion mentioned..I think she'd prefer that it wasn't brought into every conversation.... Susan From Schlobin at aol.com Sun Dec 23 02:23:21 2007 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 02:23:21 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: <476CE30A.20809@yahoo.com> Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Lee Kaiwen wrote: > > americanghosttour blessed us with this gem On 22/12/2007 10:23: > > > Wiccan We celebrate Yule. (Most of your modern Christmas traditions > > come from our ancient ones, btw.) But if I dare say, "Blessed Yule" > > Well, debatable as your premise is, in that case I would expect Wiccans > of all people to be most at home in the holiday, rather than > (apparently) dead-set against enjoying it. > Debatable that most Christmas traditions were originally pagan? When I grew up in the Catholic Church, it was explained specifically to me that Catholics were trying to suppress pagan religion and were deliberately adopting some of the imagery.... What do you think ISN'T pagan about Christmas? The birth of the son of god? The tree? The Yule log? Susan From Schlobin at aol.com Sun Dec 23 02:26:51 2007 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 02:26:51 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: What's fascinating to me is how people who are trying to part of the dominant paradigm get very angry whenever they are challenged. If one is TRULY wishing joy and peace to someone, then one might expect that one might engage in common courtesy -- which is not to wish someone a Merry Christmas when they don't celebrate Christmas. Maybe they're one of the people who historically has been discriminated against by Christians....or put to death..or to the torture... So, if someone wishes you "bright blessings this samhain", you'd be delighted because they'd be wishing you something good? My best guess is that you'd run screaming from the room.... Susan From Schlobin at aol.com Sun Dec 23 02:32:22 2007 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 02:32:22 -0000 Subject: what's wrong with happy holidays? Message-ID: And what IS wrong with happy holidays? It's wishing someone something good without running the risk of emphasizing that everyone BUT that person is celebrating a holiday they really don't want to celebrate... Why is common courtesy -- calling someone what they WISH to be called -- or greeting someone in the way they prefer -- considered "politically correct?" That's short talk jargon (you're being politically correct) for "please shut up. you're upsetting my view of the universe." You should be happy...I wish everyone merry christmas whether they like it or not... This is charity? This is love? So, it's fine to treat other peoples' cultures as if they don't exist, are unimportant, or inferior? If you KNOW someone, then you might take the time to learn that Chanukah is not a big holiday, and if they're an observant Jew, it's more important to wish them happy new year (and NOT on January 1st). Or would you just ignore the whole thing and keep wishing them merry christmas... Or perhaps they're one of the ever growing number of adherants of Islam.... Reminds me of the nurse who told all the people practing Islam in the hospital that "any which way is east"...they wanted to know so they could pray in the appropriate manner. She told me "well, they don't know the difference." This is called lack of respect for people unless they're like you. Susan From n2fgc at arrl.net Sun Dec 23 02:38:01 2007 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Lee Storm(God Is The Healing Force)) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 21:38:01 -0500 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] prayers are needed In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000d01c8450c$d6176280$67a4a8c0@FRODO> Hi Melody, We will pray for the little one and her family as well as the donor family. I empathize as my Aunt is about to get on the transplant list. The only thing holding her up is (get this), she's not sick enough. So, we wait and pray for her. I hope that little one gets home for Christmas or, at least, can have a decent celebration in her room. Peace, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at arrl.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at optonline.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Dec 23 02:46:05 2007 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 02:46:05 -0000 Subject: what's wrong with happy holidays? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Susan: And what IS wrong with happy holidays? It's wishing someone something good without running the risk of emphasizing that everyone BUT that person is celebrating a holiday they really don't want to celebrate... Alla: Agreed. As I said, if I know person celebrates Christmas, I wish it, if not I go with Happy holidays. It is just me. Susan: > If you KNOW someone, then you might take the time to learn that > Chanukah is not a big holiday, and if they're an observant Jew, it's > more important to wish them happy new year (and NOT on January 1st). > Or would you just ignore the whole thing and keep wishing them merry > christmas... > Alla: That is very true as well. I will probably never become observant Jew, but Rosh Hashanah ( did I even spell it right?) starts in the fall and for practicing Jews is a very important holiday. I mean it is start of Jewish new year, so it is obviously important. I like it, but I did not fully absorb it yet, I probably will be celebrating New Year on December 31 forever, but we do have dinner on that holiday as well From n2fgc at arrl.net Sun Dec 23 02:53:23 2007 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Lee Storm(God Is The Healing Force)) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 21:53:23 -0500 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000e01c8450e$fbcf88c0$67a4a8c0@FRODO> [Alla]: |Cookies.... YUM. | |One girl at work yesterday brought truffles and cookies that she made |since several of us are off next week. Other baked christmas chocolate |chip cookies - OMG they were divine. | |I was too lazy to bake so I bought them little Godivas, but that was |in a sense nothing new, since I bring chocolate to work very often. | |They call me chocolate Alla and when they want to tease me they call |me easter bunny, LOL. [Lee]: Well, you can play Easter Bunny any time here! I'm a confirmed Chocoholic. When I was moderator of the BSG-Theme list, if there was a list problem, my listers would often send me huge quantities of chocolate as thanks for fixing it. One of my chief listers used to say that sending the moderator chocolate would appease the angry list gods. :-) Smile, and think Chocolate. Lee (Whose Skype name is "lady-chocolee) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at arrl.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at optonline.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Dec 23 02:59:27 2007 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 02:59:27 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Mary Ann: The children are taught the Christian nativity story as well. Yes, I said "taught". The Religious Education teacher told me that she's never known so many pupils, the majority of whom are of British descent, to *not* be familiar with the nativity story. Alla: LOLOLOLOL. Invite me as guest lecturer, I will teach the kids nativity stories and some other stories from New testament. Yep, I do know it very well. Why? Because I find this book to be fascinating to read. Oy, the value of education. On the other hand, somebody of my legal profession (supposed to be educated person, eh?) recently told me that the difference between christianity and judaism is that judaism stops and does not further after Christ came. Oy. Mary Ann: I went off on a tangent again, didn't I? Good thing you're used to me, Alla! Must check on supper before it burns. I've done that before... Mary Ann, passing over a plate of decorated cookies Alla: Love you going on the tangents :) Cookies :) From tcorea13 at sbcglobal.net Sun Dec 23 05:08:29 2007 From: tcorea13 at sbcglobal.net (Tina) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 05:08:29 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Tonks: > > Thank you!! I agree 110%. Our culture here in the U.S. has changed > so very much in the past 30 years or so. This is why the younger > folks here think in terms of "Holidays" and us old fogies > think "Christmas". Actually the season of Christmas, while a > religious celebration, is not really seen as such by most of the > people who do celebrate it. When I was a child my parents and I were > not Christian, but we had a tree and celebrated Christmas. It was > the time that Santa came. That is all I knew. I lived in a small > midwestern town. There were no Jewish people, Black people, or > anyone other than WASP's and a few Roman Catholics. There was no > other holiday except New Years. > > > You do not have to be a Christian to celebrate Christmas. Because in > the U.S. Christmas has become a secular holiday too... Divatina: My city (Cleveland) is a very diverse community, particularly the area I live in, which is predominately Jewish. Even though I am Christian, I always wish people "Happy Holidays"--I'm wishing them the joy of the season--the season being that of *many* holidays, including the new year--without assuming *they* celebrate the holiday *I* celebrate--sometimes I'll just wish "Happy New Year". If one is truly just trying to wish good tidings to another, why does it need a label? Is saying "Happy Holidays" any less merry than "Merry Christmas"? I agree that our society has become a bit too pc in certain areas, but this seems to be more of a courtesy to me; recognizing that one might not celebrate the same way you do, but you wish them well regardless. :) Just my thoughts! Tina From bboyminn at yahoo.com Sun Dec 23 06:34:20 2007 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 06:34:20 -0000 Subject: what's wrong with happy holidays? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- "susanmcgee48176" wrote: > > And what IS wrong with happy holidays? > > ... bboyminn: Well, there is NOTHING wrong with 'Happy Holidays', nothing at all. I frequently say 'Happy Holidays' just to break the monotony, and just to keep my season's greeting from becoming too generic and meaningless. Sometime is wish people BOTH Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays. The 'political correctness' comes in when people become irrationally afraid that someone might actually have to feel something. Consequently, Christmas is removed from everything. Christmas cards become Holiday cards. Christmas pudding become Holiday pudding. I think that is ridiculous. Though if someone were to prefer it that way for themselves, I have no problem with that, but when they are trying to change the spirit of the season into spend spend spend and don't do anything that might offend anyone for any reason for fear that they might not spend spend spend, then I think we have gone a little overboard. As I already said, I celebrate Christmas and as part of the celebration I wish the gifts of Christmas joy on others by saying Merry Christmas. Now, on a more general subject, you can say that I should address you according to your tradition, but how am I suppose to know what your traditions is? Of course, if I do know, I would try to respond with something appropriate and considerate, but you can't expect me to read your mind. So, while I can't read the minds of others, I can and do express my own mind which is really the only thing I have control over. So... the best of the season to you and wishing you all a prosperous new year. Steve/bboyminn From Schlobin at aol.com Sun Dec 23 07:31:44 2007 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 07:31:44 -0000 Subject: what's wrong with happy holidays?/warning mature language and themes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > --- "susanmcgee48176" wrote: > > > > And what IS wrong with happy holidays? > > > > ... > > bboyminn: > > Well, there is NOTHING wrong with 'Happy Holidays', nothing at > all. I frequently say 'Happy Holidays' just to break the > monotony, and just to keep my season's greeting from becoming > too generic and meaningless. Sometime is wish people BOTH > Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays. > > The 'political correctness' comes in when people become > irrationally afraid that someone might actually have to feel > something. Consequently, Christmas is removed from everything. > Christmas cards become Holiday cards. Christmas pudding become > Holiday pudding. I think that is ridiculous. > Steve, I don't quite understand what you're saying. What do you mean when you say people become "irrationally afraid that someone might actually have to feel something. > Though if someone were to prefer it that way for themselves, > I have no problem with that, but when they are trying to change > the spirit of the season into spend spend spend and don't do > anything that might offend anyone for any reason for fear > that they might not spend spend spend, then I think we have > gone a little overboard. > > As I already said, I celebrate Christmas and as part of the > celebration I wish the gifts of Christmas joy on others by > saying Merry Christmas. Now, on a more general subject, you > can say that I should address you according to your tradition, > but how am I suppose to know what your traditions is? Of course, > if I do know, I would try to respond with something appropriate > and considerate, but you can't expect me to read your mind. > Steve, I don't get it.....why would you say Merry Christmas to someone if you don't know if they celebrate Christmas? After doing some google searching, I now understand that the latest right wing agenda is to tell people that Christians are being oppressed because people say "happy holidays" instead of "merry christmas"... And back to the discussion of the pagan roots of Christmas...actually, there are a bunch of Christians who talk about this most eloquently....try googling "pagan roots of Christmas" and see what you get... Mistletoe, for example, was a Druid thing....the white berries when crushed resemble ejaculated sperm..it was a fertility symbol. Christmas, itself..well of course Jesus was not born on December 25th...that date was the festival of the undying sun god - Sol Invictus...(Mithras) as well as the Saturnalia..a Roman holiday of excess, dancing, singing, sex, nudity, gifts, etc...and gift giving... December 25 was also considered to be the date of the winter solstice..in the old Roman Julian calendar...The Sol Invictus festival has a "strong claim on the responsibility" for the date of Christmas, according to the CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Pagan Scandinavia celebrated a winter festival called Yule, held in the late December to early January period. Yule logs were lit to honor Thor, the god of thunder, with the belief that each spark from the fire represented a new pig or calf that would be born during the coming year. Feasting would continue until the log burned out, which could take as many as twelve days. In pagan Germania (not to be confused with Germany), the equivalent holiday was the mid-winter night which was followed by 12 "wild nights", filled with eating, drinking and partying.[12] As Northern Europe was the last part to Christianize, (I think it was Iceland that was run by a pagan council in 1000 A.D..... its pagan celebrations had a major influence on Christmas. Scandinavians still call Christmas Jul. Holly and Ivy were also Druid derived....etc. Susan From Schlobin at aol.com Sun Dec 23 08:42:53 2007 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 08:42:53 -0000 Subject: Narnia movies Message-ID: So, we were discussing the Narnia movies today (the new trailer for Prince Caspian was up)..has this been discussed here before? I know that C.S. Lewis' stepson consulted on the first film...but I was disappointed in it.... The visuals were SO much better than the other film version..but I thought that the older version had more, well, "soul"...meaning they seem infused with more of C.S. Lewis' spirit. Let's take Father Christmas in the new version.....what ever happened to the idea that he would be glad and jolly..as well as good and great? Nothing like that...the actor was physically wonderful...but had no Father Christmas spirit? Anyone else have this reaction? Susan From leekaiwen at yahoo.com Sun Dec 23 09:18:17 2007 From: leekaiwen at yahoo.com (Lee Kaiwen) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 17:18:17 +0800 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <476E27D9.4090307@yahoo.com> americanghosttour: > Wiccan We celebrate Yule. (Most of your modern Christmas > traditions come from our ancient ones, btw.) CJ: > Well, debatable as your premise is ... susanmcgee48176: > Debatable that most Christmas traditions were originally pagan? No -- debatable that most Christian traditions were originally Wiccan. That was the claim (see above). > What do you think ISN'T pagan about Christmas? Lessee, we could start with the name :-). Then there's St. Nicholas, gift-giving, Christmas cards, poinsettias (native to Mexico), Christmas stockings, Bing Crosby, Christmas Eve services, the Advent wreath, Christmas caroling, the Nativity story, the Christmas Star, red-nosed reindeer and Christmas trees. Yes, Christmas trees. I'm well aware the decorating of trees has antecedents in German pagan (not Wiccan) practice. But I'm still looking for a definitive demonstration of a link between the two that amounts to something more than post hoc propter hoc -- that is, when the link isn't just assumed out of hand. In any case, the practice of placing and decorating a tree in the home (the thought of cutting down a tree would have horrified pagans) specifically at Christmas time originated in 16th century (Christian!) Germany, where it seems to have begun in churches, of all places, before moving into homes. > The birth of the son of god? The birth of Christ? Umm, yeah. Sure, I'm aware of other virgin birth myths -- Mutemmua in ancient Egypt, the births of Athena and Dionysius in Greek mythology, Devaki and Krishna over on the sub-continent. But as with the origins of the Christmas tree, the fact of their existence alone hardly suffices to prove pagan origins of the Christian tradition. Merry Christmas, Happy Hannukah and Joyous New Year! CJ From HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com Sun Dec 23 16:40:34 2007 From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com (HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com) Date: 23 Dec 2007 16:40:34 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 12/23/2007, 11:00 am Message-ID: <1198428034.8.65441.m56@yahoogroups.com> Reminder from: HPFGU-OTChatter Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/cal Weekly Chat Sunday December 23, 2007 11:00 am - 12:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2007 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com Sun Dec 23 18:41:32 2007 From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com (HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com) Date: 23 Dec 2007 18:41:32 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 12/23/2007, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1198435292.11.13895.m56@yahoogroups.com> Reminder from: HPFGU-OTChatter Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/cal Weekly Chat Sunday December 23, 2007 1:00 pm - 1:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2007 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Sun Dec 23 23:35:17 2007 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 23:35:17 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "susanmcgee48176" wrote: > > --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Lee Kaiwen > wrote: > > > > americanghosttour blessed us with this gem On 22/12/2007 10:23: > > > > > Wiccan We celebrate Yule. (Most of your modern Christmas > traditions > > > come from our ancient ones, btw.) But if I dare say, "Blessed > Yule" > > > > Well, debatable as your premise is, in that case I would expect > Wiccans > > of all people to be most at home in the holiday, rather than > > (apparently) dead-set against enjoying it. > > > > Debatable that most Christmas traditions were originally pagan? > When I grew up in the Catholic Church, it was explained specifically > to me that Catholics were trying to suppress pagan religion and were > deliberately adopting some of the imagery.... Geoff: I have always understood that one of the reasons that the Christian festivals often coincide with the pagan ones was that the only way that early Christians who happened to be slaves under the Romans could only get time to hold a festival was at the time of the major Roman holidays, hence the convergence of the dates. Susan: > What do you think ISN'T pagan about Christmas? The birth of the son > of god? The tree? The Yule log? Geoff: Personally, I do not consider the coming of God in human form to earth as being pagan but as the fulfilment of promises made by God through the prophets. I'm quite happy to accept the Christmas tree, like the log, as an interesting tradition which is really nothing to do with the real purpose of Christmas, the birth of the Messiah - born to bring salvation to the world. Although I do not agree with their world view, I am quite happy for the Jewish people to celebrate Hanukkah or other faiths to mark their special days and I would certainly *not* expect them to rename their holidays or change the way they follow their belief for the benefit of those of us who are practising, believing Christians. By the same argument, however, returning to the subject of celebrating Christmas, as far as the UK goes, these holidays are *officially* referred to as Christmas holidays and the cultural foundation, certainly of England over the last thousand years or so is deeply rooted and founded in Christianity and its outworking through individuals. Our schools, our hospitals, our legal system, the abolition of slavery and of child labour inter alia are all developments which were brought about by Christian believers so I see no reason why we should change our naming of these holidays. From kempermentor at yahoo.com Mon Dec 24 00:02:34 2007 From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kemper mentor) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 16:02:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? Message-ID: <844781.39654.qm@web90406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> americanghosttour: > Wiccan We celebrate Yule. (Most of your modern Christmas > traditions come from our ancient ones, btw.) CJ: > Well, debatable as your premise is ... susanmcgee48176: > Debatable that most Christmas traditions were originally pagan? CJ: > No -- debatable that most Christian traditions were originally Wiccan. > That was the claim (see above). Kemper now: The above claim was that most modern come from ancient (traditions). Though I can see that it is easy to infer Wiccan. Kemper, sick and about to drink a Hot Toddy ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From gav_fiji at yahoo.com Mon Dec 24 00:28:42 2007 From: gav_fiji at yahoo.com (Goddlefrood) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 00:28:42 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: <844781.39654.qm@web90406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Kemper, sick and about to drink a Hot Toddy Goddlefrood: Here, have a glass of mulled wine too. Dare I say get well soon, or would that be too controversial ;-) From gwharrison53 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 24 01:52:13 2007 From: gwharrison53 at yahoo.com (gwharrison53 at yahoo.com) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 17:52:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Happy Holiday's ! * 50 photo's * Message-ID: <200712240152.lBO1qMOG017579@upsa-web111.ofoto.com> Happy Holiday's ! * 50 photo's * You're invited to view these photos online at KODAK Gallery! Just click on View Photos to get started. http://www.kodakgallery.com/I.jsp?c=brptja83.4btj57qv&x=1&h=1&y=-jaaxhz If you'd like to save this album, just sign in, or if you're new to the Gallery, create a free account. Once you've signed in, you'll be able to view this album whenever you want and order Kodak prints of your favorite photos. Enjoy! Instructions: Click view photos to begin. If you're an existing member you'll be asked to sign in. If not, you can join the Gallery for free. http://www.kodakgallery.com/Register.jsp Questions? Visit http://help.kodakgallery.com. ------------------------------------------------------------ The KODAK Gallery Customer Service Team Phone: 800-360-9098 / 512-651-9770 Outside of the US and Canada ------------------------------------------------------------ If you cannot see the links above, copy and paste the following URL directly into your browser: http://www.kodakgallery.com/I.jsp?c=brptja83.4btj57qv&x=1&h=1&y=-jaaxhz [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From leekaiwen at yahoo.com Mon Dec 24 03:11:10 2007 From: leekaiwen at yahoo.com (Lee Kaiwen) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 11:11:10 +0800 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <476F234E.8070504@yahoo.com> susanmcgee48176 blessed us with this gem On 23/12/2007 10:26: > So, if someone wishes you "bright blessings this samhain", you'd be > delighted because they'd be wishing you something good? My best guess > is that you'd run screaming from the room.... Now, Susan, I think you're swatting at strawmen here. Near as I can tell, every Christmas well-wisher in this discussion has already said he/she/it would be delighted to be wished Happy Hanukkahs, Blessed Kwanzais, or even Salutatious Samhains. It's only the objectors who seem to be -- well, objecting. CJ From jnferr at gmail.com Mon Dec 24 03:24:26 2007 From: jnferr at gmail.com (Janette) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 21:24:26 -0600 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8ee758b40712231924v6586573dwf047671e7fd1b8e8@mail.gmail.com> > > Geoff: > I have always understood that one of the reasons that > the Christian festivals often coincide with the pagan > ones was that the only way that early Christians who > happened to be slaves under the Romans could only get > time to hold a festival was at the time of the major > Roman holidays, hence the convergence of the dates. montims: An interesting story, that I hadn't heard before, but as authentic as the rest of the xmas ritual these days... The historical version that I have always heard of is all over the place on the internet, but maybe the most authoritative is from history.com: http://www.history.com/minisite.do?content_type=Minisite_Generic&content_type_id=1253&display_order=1&sub_display_order=2&mini_id=1290 Also around the time of the winter solstice, Romans observed Juvenalia, a feast honoring the children of Rome. In addition, members of the upper classes often celebrated the birthday of Mithra, the god of the unconquerable sun, on December 25. For some Romans, Mithra's birthday was the most sacred day of the year. In the early years of Christianity, Easterwas the main holiday; the birth of Jesus was not celebrated. In the fourth century, church officials decided to institute the birth of Jesus as a holiday. Unfortunately, the Bibledoes not mention a date for his birth (a fact Puritans later pointed out in order to deny the legitimacy of the celebration). Although some evidence suggests that his birth may have occurred in the spring (why would shepherds be herding in the middle of winter?), Pope Julius I chose December 25. It is commonly believed that the church chose this date in an effort to adopt and absorb the traditions of the pagan Saturnalia festival. First called the Feast of the Nativity, the custom spread to Egypt by 432 and to England by the end of the sixth century. By the end of the eighth century, the celebration of Christmas had spread all the way to Scandinavia. By holding Christmas at the same time as traditional winter solstice festivals, church leaders increased the chances that Christmas would be popularly embraced, but gave up the ability to dictate how it was celebrated. By the Middle Ages, Christianity had, for the most part, replaced pagan religion. On Christmas, believers attended church, then celebrated raucously in a drunken, carnival-like atmosphere similar to today's Mardi Gras. Each year, a beggar or student would be crowned the "lord of misrule" and eager celebrants played the part of his subjects. The poor would go to the houses of the rich and demand their best food and drink. If owners failed to comply, their visitors would most likely terrorize them with mischief. Christmas became the time of year when the upper classes could repay their real or imagined "debt" to society by entertaining less fortunate citizens. In the same way that Augustine and Gregory stipulated that christian churches should be built over sacred pagan sites, so that the contryfolk (pagani in Latin) would worship in the same place as they were traditionally used to, but this time in a christian church, to the christian god. I recall that someone earlier in this thread implied that pagans would not have brought evergreens inside - on the same site http://www.history.com/minisite.do?content_type=Minisite_Generic&content_type_id=1284&display_order=5&mini_id=1290 it talks about xmas trees: Long before the advent of Christianity, plants and trees that remained green all year had a special meaning for people in the winter. Just as people today decorate their homes during the festive season with pine, spruce, and fir trees, ancient peoples hung evergreen boughs over their doors and windows. In many countries it was believed that evergreens would keep away witches, ghosts, evil spirits, and illness. In the Northern hemisphere, the shortest day and longest night of the year falls on December 21 or December 22 and is called the winter solstice. Many ancient people believed that the sun was a god and that winter came every year because the sun god had become sick and weak. They celebrated the solstice because it meant that at last the sun god would begin to get well. Evergreen boughs reminded them of all the green plants that would grow again when the sun god was strong and summer would return. The ancient Egyptians worshipped a god called Ra, who had the head of a hawk and wore the sun as a blazing disk in his crown. At the solstice, when Ra began to recover from the illness, the Egyptians filled their homes with green palm rushes which symbolized for them the triumph of life over death. Early Romans marked the solstice with a feast called the Saturnaliain honor of Saturn, the god of agriculture. The Romans knew that the solstice meant that soon farms and orchards would be green and fruitful. To mark the occasion, they decorated their homes and temples with evergreen boughs. In Northern Europe the mysterious Druids, the priests of the ancient Celts, also decorated their temples with evergreen boughs as a symbol of everlasting life. The fierce Vikings in Scandinavia thought that evergreens were the special plant of the sun god, Balder. Germany is credited with starting the Christmas tree tradition as we now know it in the 16th century when devout Christians brought decorated trees into their homes. Some built Christmas pyramids of wood and decorated them with evergreens and candles if wood was scarce. It is a widely held belief that Martin Luther , the 16th-century Protestant reformer, first added lighted candles to a tree. Walking toward his home one winter evening, composing a sermon, he was awed by the brilliance of stars twinkling amidst evergreens. To recapture the scene for his family, he erected a tree in the main room and wired its branches with lighted candles. And interesting facts about xmas day: ? From 1659 to 1681, the celebration of Christmas was outlawed in Boston, and law-breakers were fined five shillings. ? Christmas wasn't a holiday in early America?in fact Congress was in session on December 25, 1789, the country's first Christmas under the new constitution. ? Christmas was declared a federal holiday in the United Stateson June 26, 1870. ? The first eggnog made in the United States was consumed in Captain John Smith's 1607 Jamestownsettlement. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From leekaiwen at yahoo.com Mon Dec 24 03:26:37 2007 From: leekaiwen at yahoo.com (Lee Kaiwen) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 11:26:37 +0800 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: <844781.39654.qm@web90406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <844781.39654.qm@web90406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <476F26ED.4050703@yahoo.com> americanghosttour: > Wiccan We celebrate Yule. (Most of your modern Christmas > traditions come from our ancient ones, btw.) CJ: > No -- debatable that most Christian traditions were originally Wiccan. > That was the claim (see above). Kemper now: > The above claim was that most modern come from ancient (traditions) . > Though I can see that it is easy to infer Wiccan. The OP (americanhosttour) identified him/herself as Wiccan and then specifically said "OUR ancient" traditions. To my eye, that's a pretty explicit claim, no inference required :-). Changing "Wiccan" to "pagan" would make for a better (though still debatable) argument. I also read the OP ("come from") as a claim to ownership. In fact, our modern Christmas traditions are a pastische of traditions far too complex for any single ownership claim. Saying "most modern Christian traditions have pagan elements" would make for an argument undeniable even by me :-). CJ From kempermentor at yahoo.com Mon Dec 24 05:00:19 2007 From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kemper mentor) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 21:00:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? Message-ID: <537078.50187.qm@web90405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Kemper: > The above claim was that most modern come from ancient (traditions) . > Though I can see that it is easy to infer Wiccan. CJ: The OP (americanhosttour) identified him/herself as Wiccan and then specifically said "OUR ancient" traditions. To my eye, that's a pretty explicit claim, no inference required :-). Changing "Wiccan" to "pagan" would make for a better (though still debatable) argument. Kemper now: Missing the 'our', I concede. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From Schlobin at aol.com Mon Dec 24 05:05:22 2007 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 05:05:22 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Susan: > > What do you think ISN'T pagan about Christmas? The birth of the son > > of god? The tree? The Yule log? > > Geoff: > Personally, I do not consider the coming of God in > human form to earth as being pagan but as the fulfilment > of promises made by God through the prophets. I respect everyone's religious beliefs. That said, the idea of the son of God coming to earth, dying and then being reborn pre-dates Christianity.. Susan From Schlobin at aol.com Mon Dec 24 05:07:05 2007 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 05:07:05 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: <844781.39654.qm@web90406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, kemper mentor wrote: > > > > > americanghosttour: > > > > Wiccan We celebrate Yule. (Most of your modern Christmas > > > traditions come from our ancient ones, btw.) > > > > CJ: > > > > Well, debatable as your premise is ... > > > > susanmcgee48176: > > > > Debatable that most Christmas traditions were originally pagan? > > > > CJ: > > No -- debatable that most Christian traditions were originally Wiccan. > > > That was the claim (see above). > > > > Kemper now: > The above claim was that most modern come from ancient (traditions). Though I can see that it is easy to infer Wiccan. > > Kemper, sick and about to drink a Hot Toddy > > > > Kemper, I sympathize. I have been sick since Thanksgiving (U.S.) and am just now beginning to feel better! Ychhh! Wicca is a SUBSET of paganism.... It's probably correct to say most Christmas traditions originated with paganism rather than wicca... Susan From Schlobin at aol.com Mon Dec 24 05:11:54 2007 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 05:11:54 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: <8ee758b40712231924v6586573dwf047671e7fd1b8e8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Janette wrote: > > > > > Geoff: > > I have always understood that one of the reasons that > > the Christian festivals often coincide with the pagan > > ones was that the only way that early Christians who > > happened to be slaves under the Romans could only get > > time to hold a festival was at the time of the major > > Roman holidays, hence the convergence of the dates. > > Interesting, Geoff, I have never heard that before....can you cite a source? > montims: > > An interesting story, that I hadn't heard before, but as authentic as the > rest of the xmas ritual these days... The historical version that I have > always heard of is all over the place on the internet, but maybe the most > authoritative is from history.com: > http://www.history.com/minisite.do? content_type=Minisite_Generic&content_type_id=1253&display_order=1&sub _display_order=2&mini_id=1290 > > > Also around the time of the winter solstice, Romans observed Juvenalia, a > feast honoring the children of Rome. In addition, members of the upper > classes often celebrated the birthday of Mithra, the god of the > unconquerable sun, on December 25. For some Romans, Mithra's birthday was > the most sacred day of the year. > In the early years of Christianity, > Easterwas the main holiday; > the birth of Jesus was not celebrated. In the fourth > century, church officials decided to institute the birth of Jesus as a > holiday. Unfortunately, the > Bibledoes not > mention a date for his birth (a fact Puritans later pointed out in > order to deny the legitimacy of the celebration). Although some evidence > suggests that his birth may have occurred in the spring (why would shepherds > be herding in the middle of winter?), Pope Julius I chose December 25. It is > commonly believed that the church chose this date in an effort to adopt and > absorb the traditions of the pagan Saturnalia festival. This is what I was taught in Catholic school -- that the church deliberately chose its holidays to coincide with pagan holidays -- so that it could suppress pagan worship...if pagans continued to worship on these holidays, it could be said that they were really celebrating Christian holidays. Of course, it's possible that I was lied to, but my research indicates this to be the case. It's common. The Indo-European invaders replaced the earth Goddesses of Minoan Crete with their sky deities...the ancient Egyptians (in their brief foray into monotheism) destroyed momuments to the previous deities and replaced them with their own... It's a common tactic of conquerors... Susan From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Mon Dec 24 07:02:45 2007 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 07:02:45 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "susanmcgee48176" wrote: > > > Susan: > > > What do you think ISN'T pagan about Christmas? The birth of > > the son of god? The tree? The Yule log? > > > > Geoff: > > Personally, I do not consider the coming of God in > > human form to earth as being pagan but as the fulfilment > > of promises made by God through the prophets. Susan: > I respect everyone's religious beliefs. > That said, the idea of the son of God coming to earth, dying and then > being reborn pre-dates Christianity.. Geoff: Summarising in a nutshell, to practising evangelical Christians, we are not discussing an "idea" but what we see as the revelation of God's love and wishes for his world. Obviously, not everyone here subscribes to that view. From gav_fiji at yahoo.com Mon Dec 24 11:44:52 2007 From: gav_fiji at yahoo.com (Goddlefrood) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 11:44:52 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Susan: > It's probably correct to say most Christmas traditions > originated with paganism rather than wicca... Goddlefrood: I suggest that depends on what traditions you refer to. Here's a few: (i) Father Christmas / Santa Claus (FC) - Most usually traced to Saint Nicholas of Turkey. He's also the patron saint of pawnbrokers. (ii) Christmas tres / logs - pre-Christian traditions. (iii) Turkeys as the main meat for the Christmas dinner - unlikely to be pagan unless some tribe in the Americas had a festival around the same time as Chriastmas where these delicious birds were eaten. This wouldn't fit anyway with being pre-Christian because America was originally settled by Christians and the turkey as a staple of the dinner has only been adopted in Europe quite recently. In England the traditional bird to eat at this time of year is a goose. (iv) Eight reindeers - Probably due to Odin's horse having had 8 legs. The Norse religion could probably be lumped in in the pagan category, but would usually be described as a pantheistic religion, not completely unlike modern Hinduism. (v) FC's clothing - due to a coca cola advertising campaign of the 1930s, iirc. (vi) The date of Christmas - a shoe in for other older traditions and festivals. As Susan pointed out it was a convenient time for the catholic church to put Christmas at. The early Christians, as pointed out by Geoff did often use older symbols and festivals to disguise their own. The Roman church does date back to not long after Jesus, as I'm sure all of you know. One of the early signs of a meeting place was a fish symbol, a symbol that is still used in parts of south eastern Europe, unless I'm much mistaken. That's just a small sampling and I'd be truly delighted to compare notes with anyone out there who cares to about other Christmas traditions and their origins. As can be seen some pre-date the Chritian era while others do not. I would think that more are Christian based than are not. Goddlefrood, who once did a study on many of these things, but has sadly lost it. From leekaiwen at yahoo.com Mon Dec 24 12:12:53 2007 From: leekaiwen at yahoo.com (Lee Kaiwen) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 20:12:53 +0800 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <476FA245.6040406@yahoo.com> susanmcgee48176: > It's probably correct to say most Christmas traditions originated > with paganism rather than wicca... It's almost certainly correct to say many Christmas traditions have pagan elements. But to make your claim you first need to define "paganism" specifically enough to be useful (a controversial subject in its own right). And "most" requires at minimum defining how many Christmas traditions there are and how one decides whether they are "pagan" in origin. CJ From jnferr at gmail.com Mon Dec 24 15:58:09 2007 From: jnferr at gmail.com (Janette) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 09:58:09 -0600 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8ee758b40712240758r4f40f910mf26618544976730c@mail.gmail.com> > > Goddlefrood: > > I suggest that depends on what traditions you refer to. > Here's a few: > > (i) Father Christmas / Santa Claus (FC) - Most usually > traced to Saint Nicholas of Turkey. He's also the patron > saint of pawnbrokers. > > (iv) Eight reindeers - Probably due to Odin's horse having > had 8 legs. The Norse religion could probably be lumped in > in the pagan category, but would usually be described as > a pantheistic religion, not completely unlike modern Hinduism. montims: lots snipped, and not wanting to cite long quotes as I did in a previous posting (although I could if requested), but just for the purposes of debate: the figure now seen as Father Christmas has many sources; as you said he is most often connected to St Nicholas for his generosity, although that's really the only similarity. It really was a convenient way to explain the fact that so many cultures had a deep connection with the concept, even when they had never actually heard of St Nicholas of Myra. In northern Europe, shoes and stockings were left out for Odin, and the process of christianisation put St Nick in Odin's place. But it is really all an amalgam, and Santa Claus, Father Christmas and St Nick have different derivations that are now all absorbed into the one fantasy figure. Father Christmas, in England, has traditionally represented the spirit of good cheer. He is very much Herne and the Green Man, and it has been said that by adopting Santa Claus, the Brits have subconsciously (as it is an ancient archetype) taken the horns of Herne and put them on the reindeer instead. Like Susan, I respect all peoples' religious beliefs, but I hate seeing history rewritten to eradicate the contributions of the Other. We all know that history is written by the victors - once a tribe or culture is eradicated, it is left to archeologists to go through midden pits and interpret their findings. But we are intelligent people, and if you (generic you) find deep spiritual meaning in the story of Christmas, then you can surely do so without denying the non-christian elements which were absorbed into the way it is celebrated today? I make no mention of the actual gospel stories, as they are outwith this discussion. And by the way, some people have questioned the word "pagan". This is quite simply a religion or a belief "outside the Abrahamic monotheistic group of Judaism, Christianity , and Islam," and is the term used by christians since christianity became the state religion. (Quoted from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pagan for simplicity.) In Goddlefrood's quote above, he talks about the Norse religion being "lumped in the pagan category", but as the word pagan is just like Jews using the term gentile, it is not a question of anything being lumped into it - it has traditionally been a term of abuse and accusation (like infidel today). People today have proudly claimed the term Pagan, because they were being called it anyway, but Pagan per se is not a religion - it is a non-belief in the Hebrew God. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Mon Dec 24 20:03:22 2007 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 20:03:22 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Goddlefrood" wrote: Goddlefrood: > I suggest that depends on what traditions you refer to. > Here's a few: > (i) Father Christmas / Santa Claus > (ii) Christmas tres / logs - pre-Christian traditions. > (iii) Turkeys as the main meat for the Christmas dinner > (iv) Eight reindeers - > (v) FC's clothing Geoff: These traditions are not actually part of the essential message of Christianity and, hence, of Christmas and really are irrelevant to what the season is all about; however, they make useful red herrings to distract folk from investigating what our faith is all about. Goddlefrood: > (vi) The date of Christmas - a shoe in for other older > traditions and festivals. As Susan pointed out it was > a convenient time for the catholic church to put Christmas > at. The early Christians, as pointed out by Geoff did often > use older symbols and festivals to disguise their own. The > Roman church does date back to not long after Jesus, as I'm > sure all of you know. One of the early signs of a meeting > place was a fish symbol, a symbol that is still used in > parts of south eastern Europe, unless I'm much mistaken. Geoff: The fish symbol is used very extensively in the UK; I have one on the tailgate of my car and they also often occur on church noticeboards. I wonder whether folk realise that the fish symbol is an example of possibly the earliest acronym? The Greek word for fish is "ichthus" which, when spelt out, form the initials of the Greek for "Jesus Christ, God's Son". It was often traced out by early Christians in the dust as a recognition symbol to other believers. From sistermagpie at earthlink.net Mon Dec 24 20:47:10 2007 From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 20:47:10 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Steve said: > > It seems to me that in a world that is not run amok with > > political correctness, I, who does celebrate Christmas, > > would uniformly say to others 'Merry Christmas', and they > > would respond in accordance with their own holiday tradition. Magpie: That's odd. To me, at least. To me it's always been the other way around. I've never lived in a part of the US where I assumed everyone celebrated Christmas, so it was more natural to wish the correct holiday to the correct person. Like at the Jewish New Year I wish Jews Happy New Year, not the other way around. If one makes a mistake about the holiday somebody celebrates it's not a big deal, but the goal would naturally be to just wish somebody the holiday they're celebrating. Sadly, we just had a local incident where people got on a train yellng "Merry Christmas" and when they were answered with "Happy Hannukah" they attacked! Happy holidays is a great, handy way to greet somebody if you don't know, imo. Though it far pre-dates the whole argument about it. It used to mean Merry Christmas and Happy New Year's--and still does as far as I know. Which is why I find it bizarre when people talk about it as being part of a "war" on Christmas, as if not being greeted with your specific holiday is some sort of insult to your holiday (unless you're a non-Christmas celebrator, in which case being greeted with somebody else's holiday should be just fine!). -m From bboyminn at yahoo.com Mon Dec 24 21:59:19 2007 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 21:59:19 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- "sistermagpie" wrote: > > > Steve said: > > > It seems to me that in a world that is not run amok with > > > political correctness, I, who does celebrate Christmas, > > > would uniformly say to others 'Merry Christmas', and > > > they would respond in accordance with their own holiday > > > tradition. > > Magpie: > That's odd. To me, at least. To me it's always been the other way > around. > bboyminn: Yes, in the context you have established, but that assumes I know what holiday you are celebrating, and I don't. So, I express the holiday I am celebrating, and expect you to respond in kind. That is, to respond with the holiday appropriate to you. > Magpie: > > ... Like at the Jewish New Year I wish Jews Happy New Year, > not the other way around. If one makes a mistake about the > holiday somebody celebrates it's not a big deal, but the > goal would naturally be to just wish somebody the holiday > they're celebrating. > bboyminn: Yes, and during the Asian New Year, I wish my Asian friends Happy New Year. But I don't wish them Happy New Year at Christmas, at Christmas I wish them Merry Christmas because I DO KNOW what I am celebrating, but I don't know what they are celebrating. I do understand the context you are using, if I can paraphrase it, it is like going to your birthday party and expecting you to wish me 'happy birthday'. I agree that makes no sense. But I do think it makes sense at Christmas. Now, of course, if I know that you celebrate an alternate holiday around Christmas time, and I know what that holiday is, I would certainly wish you a Happy [insert alternate holiday here]. Or, I would wish you a more generic seasons greeting. I already said I frequently use Happy Holidays just to keep things from getting stale. I am not against a variety and range of seasons greetings, but I am put off by the politically correct idea that Christmas must be secularized. That 'Christ' must be stripped from Christmas to avoid offending anyone. Typically, the people who the politically correct are afraid of offending are not offended at all, so it is to no real purpose. It is simply the politically correct placating their own conscience. So, to avoid offending anyone and to make myself feel oh so very correct - Merry Xmas to all and to all a good night. Steve/bboyminn From gav_fiji at yahoo.com Mon Dec 24 23:42:38 2007 From: gav_fiji at yahoo.com (Goddlefrood) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 23:42:38 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: <8ee758b40712240758r4f40f910mf26618544976730c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > montims: > People today have proudly claimed the term Pagan, because they > were being called it anyway, but Pagan per se is not a religion > - it is a non-belief in the Hebrew God. Goddlefrood: Just on this point, and for the record I'm nominally Jewish, but with definite atheistic leanings, what would an atheist or agnostic be called? They're unlikely to term themselves pagan. The way that I understand the word pagan is that it refers to several things. One, as in the statement made by momtims that it refers to all who are not of one's own religion, like the Jewish use of gentile. Secondly, it refers to someone who does not adhere to one of the three monotheistic religions, although personally I would never describe a Hindu, a Jain, a Buddhist or a follower of Shinto and several other religions as pagans. There is no pagan religion as such as each belief has its own name, and as we have seen earlier we have at least one Wiccan amongst us. The Norse religion is now defunct (except in The Long Dark Tea Time of the Soul) and would surely be referred to as a pagan religion. This is not meant to be derogatory, it's just that there's no other word that covers the diversity that pagan does. So, if my usage of pagan in the previous post was ambiguous, it was not meant to be, the usage was referring to pre-Christian beliefs, a quite common usage amongst Christians, and Geoff will no doubt correct me if I'm mistaken on that. > Geoff: > These traditions are not actually part of the essential message > of Christianity and, hence, of Christmas and really are irrelevant > to what the season is all about; however, they make useful red > herrings to distract folk from investigating what our faith is > all about. Goddlefrood: Peace on earth, good will to all men, salvation through penitence etc. What peaceful times we live in. The matters referred to, and many others, are part of the Christmas tradition whether some Christians like it or not. I agree they may not be part of the message of Christmas, but with the rampant commercialism of today's world - even in Fiji - they have become part of its traditions. I've always celebrated Christmas, I've even been to the occasional mass (my school was CofE, I got married in an Abglican church, my wife's a Catholic). This wasn't about Christianity, it was about Christmas and no amount of proselitising is going to change that. Trees, Father Christmas, decorations, turkeys and many other things are part of Christmas, full stop. Happy holidays, merry Christmas, shalom, dhanavad, vinaka na siga ni sucu, what you will. No feelings were hurt during the course of the preparation of this post, and no offence is intended even if taken. Finally, in answer to the question originally posed by Carol, there's nothing wrong with merry Christmas, IMO. Goddlefrood, laying good odds that trees abound in the homes of many on this list, that Father Christmas / Santa has called at the homes of many of our children and that turkeys are in trouble. From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Tue Dec 25 00:14:54 2007 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 00:14:54 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Goddlefrood" wrote: Goddlefrood: > > Geoff: > > These traditions are not actually part of the essential message > > of Christianity and, hence, of Christmas and really are > > irrelevant to what the season is all about; however, they make > > useful red herrings to distract folk from investigating what our > > faith is all about. > Goddlefrood: > Peace on earth, good will to all men, salvation through penitence > etc. What peaceful times we live in. The matters referred to, > and many others, are part of the Christmas tradition whether > some Christians like it or not. > I've always celebrated Christmas, I've even been to the occasional > mass (my school was CofE, I got married in an Abglican church, my > wife's a Catholic). This wasn't about Christianity, it was about > Christmas and no amount of proselitising is going to change that. > Trees, Father Christmas, decorations, turkeys and many other things > are part of Christmas, full stop. Geoff: Agreed, in the sense that you are using Christmas. But they are not part of "the reason for the season" and therefore, for me, my previous comment holds good, Goddlefrood: > laying good odds that trees abound in the homes of > many on this list, that Father Christmas / Santa has called at > the homes of many of our children and that turkeys are in trouble. Geoff: Yes, you would get your result from my end certainly but the things you mention would go in the same file as shorts, sun lotion and shirtlessness in the summer; my enjoyment of the summertime can be just as good without them in the same way that my celebration of Christmas as a Christian does not depend on turkeys or Santa or pressies - although they add a hedonistic twist to events. For tomorrow - or actually now today - Happy Christmas to all. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 25 01:26:53 2007 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 01:26:53 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Magpie: That's odd. To me, at least. To me it's always been the other way around. I've never lived in a part of the US where I assumed everyone celebrated Christmas, so it was more natural to wish the correct holiday to the correct person. Like at the Jewish New Year I wish Jews Happy New Year, not the other way around. If one makes a mistake about the holiday somebody celebrates it's not a big deal, but the goal would naturally be to just wish somebody the holiday they're celebrating. Alla: Thank you, glad to know that I am not that unique in doing this, heheh. Magpie: Sadly, we just had a local incident where people got on a train yellng "Merry Christmas" and when they were answered with "Happy Hannukah" they attacked! Alla: I KNOW. That was so horrible. How dare those guys were to wish Happy Chanukah indeed. Sigh. And I was soooo pleased that Arabic guy interfered to protect them. Things like that make me feel warm and fuzzy truly. Magpie: Happy holidays is a great, handy way to greet somebody if you don't know, imo. Though it far pre-dates the whole argument about it. It used to mean Merry Christmas and Happy New Year's--and still does as far as I know. Which is why I find it bizarre when people talk about it as being part of a "war" on Christmas, as if not being greeted with your specific holiday is some sort of insult to your holiday (unless you're a non-Christmas celebrator, in which case being greeted with somebody else's holiday should be just fine!). Alla: Oh oh I did not even know that it used to mean this. I guess I am again just saying me too. Great post ! bboyminn: Yes, in the context you have established, but that assumes I know what holiday you are celebrating, and I don't. So, I express the holiday I am celebrating, and expect you to respond in kind. That is, to respond with the holiday appropriate to you. Alla: But the context that Magpie established is the ONLY context I personally was talking about. The context where you KNOW what holiday I am celebrating, know and continue to wish me happiness for the one I do not. That is odd to me indeed. As I also said if stranger wishes me Merry Christmas, he will get a smile and thank you from me and also same to you or something like that. The close friend doing it may get a different reaction though. If you want to share your joy with me, by all means do, but show me that you know what I am celebrating as well. At least wish me Merry Christmas and happy new year as far as I am concerned. Bboyminn: I do understand the context you are using, if I can paraphrase it, it is like going to your birthday party and expecting you to wish me 'happy birthday'. I agree that makes no sense. Alla: Precisely, very good analogy. Bboyminn: But I do think it makes sense at Christmas. Alla: Why? How is it different? Bboyminn: I am not against a variety and range of seasons greetings, but I am put off by the politically correct idea that Christmas must be secularized. That 'Christ' must be stripped from Christmas to avoid offending anyone. Typically, the people who the politically correct are afraid of offending are not offended at all, so it is to no real purpose. It is simply the politically correct placating their own conscience. Alla: I do not remember myself talking about wishing for Christmas being secularized. I do remember myself wishing that people who know me give me well wishes for the holiday I do celebrate. And how is making sure that I wish person the holiday she loves and celebrates is politically correct? What conscience I am placating I wonder except trying to learn more about people I love? My sister in law sometimes celebrates Christmas as in having dinner. She is not practicing Christian either, not even her parents, only her grandparents are. Never once it entered her mind to wish me Merry Christmas or Happy Easter, which she celebrates as the holiday also mostly secular, just something she used to celebrate as kid. She wishes me New year on December 31, she wishes me Happy Rosh Hashanah, Happy Chanukah, etc. Her parents call to wish me and my mom well on those holidays. They never called to wish me merry Christmas either. I do not think that this practice is so bizarre. Friends and family are supposed to know what their loved ones are all about IMO. Happy holidays to all. Alla. From jnferr at gmail.com Tue Dec 25 01:49:34 2007 From: jnferr at gmail.com (Janette) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 19:49:34 -0600 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: References: <8ee758b40712240758r4f40f910mf26618544976730c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8ee758b40712241749k5cff9704n2160091925bcb4b4@mail.gmail.com> > > Goddlefrood: > Just on this point, and for the record I'm nominally Jewish, but > with definite atheistic leanings, what would an atheist or agnostic > be called? They're unlikely to term themselves pagan. The way that > I understand the word pagan is that it refers to several things. > One, as in the statement made by momtims that it refers to all > who are not of one's own religion, like the Jewish use of gentile. > Secondly, it refers to someone who does not adhere to one of the > three monotheistic religions, although personally I would never > describe a Hindu, a Jain, a Buddhist or a follower of Shinto and > several other religions as pagans. There is no pagan religion as > such as each belief has its own name, and as we have seen earlier > we have at least one Wiccan amongst us. The Norse religion is now > defunct (except in The Long Dark Tea Time of the Soul) and would > surely be referred to as a pagan religion. montims: gosh - I hate to always keep coming over as argumentative, but google asatru for people who follow the Norse religion actively and enthusiastically right now... And yes, they are pagans as they believe in other gods than the Hebrew god. Also, when pagan was a term that led to torture and/or execution, centuries ago, an atheist or agnostic would also be defined as pagan. Although as it is understood today, you are right that they would probably not call themselves pagan as that implies having some religion, and perforce an atheist or agnostic has no religion, and recognises no god. These days, a pagan generally believes in a pantheon, or worships nature, or whatever. In more recent times, Chinese, Japanese, Indians, etc, were described as pagan by missionaries (who wanted to convert them to christianity), as were Native Americans and other cultures in their time of being persecuted. Truly, however the word is used today, a pagan has historically been a non-christian... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gav_fiji at yahoo.com Tue Dec 25 09:51:07 2007 From: gav_fiji at yahoo.com (Goddlefrood) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 09:51:07 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: <8ee758b40712241749k5cff9704n2160091925bcb4b4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > montims: > gosh - I hate to always keep coming over as argumentative, Goddlefrood: Not at all. > montims: > but google asatru for people who follow the Norse religion > actively and enthusiastically right now... And yes, they > are pagans as they believe in other gods than the Hebrew > god. Goddlefrood: ... and are unlikely to have had a continuous following since the days of my forefathers. If they're out there then all the best to them, there's something to be said for feasting in Valhalla for the rest of time :-) > montims: > Truly, however the word is used today, a pagan has historically > been a non-christian... Goddlefrood: Which contradicts your earlier assertion, sorry to be argumentative in turn, but the Muslims and Jews would strongly dispute this, and not just those alive today. Pagan historically referred to the old pre-Christian religions, excluding Judaism. From pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no Tue Dec 25 11:47:29 2007 From: pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no (=?iso-8859-1?q?Christian_Stub=F8?=) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 11:47:29 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter, "Goddlefrood" wrote: [snip] > (iv) Eight reindeers - Probably due to Odin's horse having > had 8 legs. No. The eight reindeer are due to the 1823 poem "An Account of a Visit from Saint Nicolas", otherwise known as "The Night before Christmas." Reindeer have little or nothing to do with giftbringing in Scandinavian Christmas tradition. In Swedish tradition Santa will have a single sled or toboggan with the sack of presents on it, which he most often pulls himself, but sometimes a single goat will pull the sled for him. In Norwegian tradition Santa Claus is mostly envisioned with the sack slung over his shoulder. If he uses animals, it'll most often be a horse pulling a sleigh, but not flying. Sleipner has no connection with J?l-celebrations in the Norse religion or with later folkloristic elements of Scandinavian Christmas. The tradition of going yulebucking, however, may owe something to the two bucks Tanngnjost and Tanngrisne that pulled Thor's wagon. To go yulebucking is somewhat reminiscent of going trick-or-treating, though traditionally it was done by adolescents and not the younger kids, and one tended to bring a live goat, or else someone dressed up as a goat. > (v) FC's clothing - due to a coca cola advertising campaign > of the 1930s, iirc. A Norwegian newspaper recently noted that New York Times had described the uniformity of how Santa Claus was imagined - portly man, with white beard, red trousers and coat with fur trimming, and black boots - in an article predating the Coca Cola campaign. Christian Stub? From jnferr at gmail.com Tue Dec 25 15:41:06 2007 From: jnferr at gmail.com (Janette) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 09:41:06 -0600 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: References: <8ee758b40712241749k5cff9704n2160091925bcb4b4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8ee758b40712250741s19f887atd7eae438b1d02f6e@mail.gmail.com> > > > montims: > > but google asatru for people who follow the Norse religion > > actively and enthusiastically right now... And yes, they > > are pagans as they believe in other gods than the Hebrew > > god. > > Goddlefrood: > > ... and are unlikely to have had a continuous following since > the days of my forefathers. If they're out there then all the > best to them, there's something to be said for feasting in > Valhalla for the rest of time :-) montims: because, like all the other pagan religions in christianised countries, the religion was eradicated by the authorities. It may have continued privately, as witches, for example, believe theirs was, but if known, they could have been subjected to terrible punishments through most of history. They certainly are out there, and asatru is an officially recognised religion in several countries. It is only in the past century (specifically in the UK with the repeal of witchcraft act after WW2) that a revival of pagan religions has been permitted. And still in many places it isn't. In many areas of the United States, for example, people can legally have their children taken away from them if they are pagan; pagans and/or their houses and property are attacked; and pagans can lose their jobs if their religious preference is known... > montims: > > Truly, however the word is used today, a pagan has historically > > been a non-christian... > > Goddlefrood: > > Which contradicts your earlier assertion, sorry to be argumentative > in turn, but the Muslims and Jews would strongly dispute this, and > not just those alive today. Pagan historically referred to the old > pre-Christian religions, excluding Judaism. montims: yes, you are right - sloppy writing - what I meant is that christians (or christian authorities) have historically persecuted the "pagan", or "infidel", whether nature-worshipper, witch, Jew, Muslim, or whatever... Pagan, however, is a non-believer in the "Abrahamic monotheistic group of Judaism, Christianity , and Islam". I don't know that that confines it to pre-christian religions, though... But evidently we are boring the rest of the thread contributors, so at this point I will stand down, apologise in advance for any other factual errors I have made, and wish those who believe a very Merry Christmas, and to all - may your dreams come true in 2008. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From catlady at wicca.net Tue Dec 25 19:43:50 2007 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 19:43:50 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > I am not against a variety and range of seasons greetings, > but I am put off by the politically correct idea that > Christmas must be secularized. That 'Christ' must be stripped > from Christmas to avoid offending anyone. Typically, the > people who the politically correct are afraid of offending > are not offended at all, so it is to no real purpose. It > is simply the politically correct placating their own > conscience. My friend gets sincerely offended. When busy cashiers politely or cheerfully wish her a "Merry Christmas", she instructs them about she does not celebrate the birthday of Christ because she is not a Christian, she is a Jew. If the poor cashier then tries "Happy Hannukkah", she instructs her/him about Hannukkah has already ended because it was from (this date on secular calendar) to (this date on secular calendar). She can go on about it. I don't tell her that I think lecturing people is rude. I probably would feel less sorry for the recipients of her lecture if I also felt offended by them. I do not celebrate the birth of Christ because I am not a Christian and I am not the kind of Wiccan who worships Christ as a Pagan god (I know some who do) but I do celebrate Christmas as a secular holiday and wish people "Merry Christmas". It's astonishing to me that some Christians feel gratified rather than offended that people are stealing their holiday as an excuse to put up decorated trees and colored lights and overeat and give presents and view creches as just a seasonal decoration. I've stolen it so much that I dare silently get a little annoyed at the slogan "Jesus is the reason for the season" because whatever god(s) one believes in (such as Jesus, for the people who use that slogan) is the reason for *all* seasons, not just winter, but Christmas is not a season. They should say 'Jesus is the reason for the celebration'. I wouldn't tell them, either, that lecturing people is rude. Telling people that they're being rude is rude. Merry Christmas, listies who like that greeting. Happy Isaac Newton's birthday to those (such as my friend) who prefer gravity and calculus. I wish you all a healthy and prosperous New Year. From catlady at wicca.net Tue Dec 25 19:57:44 2007 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 19:57:44 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Christian Stub? wrote: > > --- In HPFGU-OTChatter, "Goddlefrood" wrote: > [snip] > > (iv) Eight reindeers - Probably due to Odin's horse having > > had 8 legs. > > No. The eight reindeer are due to the 1823 poem "An Account of a > Visit from Saint Nicolas", otherwise known as "The Night before > Christmas." Reindeer have little or nothing to do with giftbringing > in Scandinavian Christmas tradition. Flying reindeer from upstate New York are a funny coincidence with flying reindeer in Siberia -- this summer I read an article about the Even people (related to the Evenki people, of whom I have heard) believe their reindeer can fly and shamans ride the reindeer to heaven. The Sami raise reindeer in Northern Scandinavia, and one TV show about Santa Claus asserted that coming down the chimney came from Sami semi-subterranean houses entered by climbing down a ladder from the roof. Did the guy who really wrote The Night Before Christmas (last year it was proved that it wasn't Clement Moore, it was some other guy whose name I forgot) know a lot about Lapland or Siberia? If I recall correctly, Sinte Klaus (dressed like a fighting bishop) rode a magnificent horse and put gifts in the wooden shoes of good children, while his servant, Black Peter, followed on a donkey and put lumps of coal in the wooden shoes of the bad ones. I don't remember in what country 'Kris Kringle' (Christ Child) gave the gifts. A news scrap about archaeologists in Ohio digging up a Santa Claus figure dressed in blue from 1850 stated that it was made by German immigrants, in whose tradition Santa Claus wore blue. Did Germans tell the same tale of Sinte Klaus that the Dutch did? From bboyminn at yahoo.com Tue Dec 25 20:12:03 2007 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 20:12:03 -0000 Subject: BeliefNet: Harry Potter and Spirituality Message-ID: Through a long unlikely sequence of events, I stumbled across as series of essays at BeliefNet about Harry Potter from a Christian Perspective. I was drawn to the essays because some of them are by one of my favorite authors Orson Scott Card. They are all very positive, well-written, and interesting. I urge any one who is interested to check them out. Beliefnet explores spiritual themes in the Harry Potter novels. http://www.beliefnet.com/harrypotter/index.html?source=GOOGLE&campaign=077&medium=PPC&nopop=1&WT.mc_id=GHARRY077&WT.srch=1&gclid=CNLmvs6axJACFQdEFQodLDBAWg Steve/bboyminn From editor at texas.net Tue Dec 25 21:48:34 2007 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 15:48:34 -0600 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: <8ee758b40712250741s19f887atd7eae438b1d02f6e@mail.gmail.com> References: <8ee758b40712241749k5cff9704n2160091925bcb4b4@mail.gmail.com> <8ee758b40712250741s19f887atd7eae438b1d02f6e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: montims: And still in many places it isn't. In many areas of the United States, for example, people can legally have their children taken away from them if they are pagan; pagans and/or their houses and property are attacked; and pagans can lose their jobs if their religious preference is known... Amanda replies: I gotta know. Please provide support for these three assertions. I want to see a legal removal of a child from a parent *primarily* on religious grounds. For the other two, I believe it is true that people, their property and jobs, are still attacked on the basis of their beliefs, but not legally. It's sad and can be tragic if that happens, but it is not legal. ~Amanda [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gav_fiji at yahoo.com Tue Dec 25 23:25:05 2007 From: gav_fiji at yahoo.com (Goddlefrood) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 23:25:05 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: <8ee758b40712250741s19f887atd7eae438b1d02f6e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > montims: > because, like all the other pagan religions in christianised > countries, the religion was eradicated by the authorities. > It may have continued privately, as witches, for example, > believe theirs was, but if known, they could have been > subjected to terrible punishments through most of history. Goddlefrood: You're quite right, this whole thing must be getting tiresome for others on the list. It was only the old Norse religion that I mentioned, I know there are plenty of other unconventional religions out there. Still, in respect of asatru, and referencing the very sites to which you alluded this may interest you, it may not : "This religion was almost completely displaced by Christianity in the Middle Ages. Although the religion was no longer practiced, many aspects survived in the culture. The old religion left as its rich legacy much of our traditional legal and ethical systems and our folk customs. Icelanders never forgot their old religion, and in 1972, ?satr? was recognized as a legitimate religion by the Icelandic government. Since the early 1970's, the religion has been in a period of rapid growth in Europe, North America, Australia, and New Zealand. ?satr? in North America was formally organized in 1973. Since then, a number of independent kindreds and other organizations have been formed (in North America and elsewhere)." From: http://www.witchvox.com/va/dt_va.html?a=usmd&c=trads&id=3208 So, like I said it's bascally a modern revival excepting in America, and coincidentally, or perhaps not, towards the end of the era of love. Cheers, merry Christmas and a happy New Year Goddlefrood From Schlobin at aol.com Tue Dec 25 23:32:14 2007 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 23:32:14 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Amanda Geist" wrote: > > montims: > And still in many places it isn't. In > many areas of the United States, for example, people can legally have their > children taken away from them if they are pagan; pagans and/or their houses > and property are attacked; and pagans can lose their jobs if their religious > preference is known... > > Amanda replies: > > I gotta know. Please provide support for these three assertions. I want to > see a legal removal of a child from a parent *primarily* on religious > grounds. For the other two, I believe it is true that people, their property > and jobs, are still attacked on the basis of their beliefs, but not legally. > It's sad and can be tragic if that happens, but it is not legal. > > ~Amanda > > > Amanda, I specifically remember reading about a case where the children were removed because the parents were pagans...I'll look that up for you when I have a moment. The fact is that pagans/wiccans of all stripes and colors are still very misunderstood. Most people still believe that they are practicing evil magick, or that they do animal or child sacrifice. At the very best, someone is seen as very strange if they state that they are a pagan or wiccan. Susan From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 26 00:07:41 2007 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 00:07:41 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "susanmcgee48176" wrote: > Amanda, I specifically remember reading about a case where the > children were removed because the parents were pagans...I'll look > that up for you when I have a moment. Alla: Hmmm, I did some random searching, and it is by no means extensive, but from what I understand that usually some other issues are involved, not solely religious grounds. Here is from someone who is supposedly openly witch: http://barbooch.homestead.com/legalsmarts.html Alla: Having said that, OMG I find the fact that parents who are pagans can feel so threatened that they feel necessary to take such extensive precautions - to explain to the world that they are not dangerous SOLELY because they are pagans, I find this fact to be horrifying. I mean, she does mention a case worker who attempted to remove a child solely on religious grounds, even if the court did protect and the worker was removed, etc. But the fact is she did ATTEMPT that and as I said my search was not extensive, so I am guessing things like that could happened somewhere else too. Alla. From sistermagpie at earthlink.net Wed Dec 26 05:30:39 2007 From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 05:30:39 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > bboyminn: > > Yes, and during the Asian New Year, I wish my Asian friends > Happy New Year. But I don't wish them Happy New Year at > Christmas, at Christmas I wish them Merry Christmas because > I DO KNOW what I am celebrating, but I don't know what they > are celebrating. > > I do understand the context you are using, if I can paraphrase > it, it is like going to your birthday party and expecting you > to wish me 'happy birthday'. I agree that makes no sense. > > But I do think it makes sense at Christmas. Magpie: Not exactly. I'm saying that if I don't know what holiday you're celebrating I would choose the greeting that includes all the holidays rather than the one I'm celebrating because, well, the one that includes everyone's holiday is right there. If I then find out what they celebrate I can just become more specific. Steve: > I am not against a variety and range of seasons greetings, > but I am put off by the politically correct idea that > Christmas must be secularized. That 'Christ' must be stripped > from Christmas to avoid offending anyone. Typically, the > people who the politically correct are afraid of offending > are not offended at all, so it is to no real purpose. It > is simply the politically correct placating their own > conscience. Magpie: I don't understand where secularizing comes into anything. Christ is not getting stripped out of Christmas either way. If somebody does celebrate Christmas, you can say Merry Christmas, whether they are secular or not. (It's not like there's a secular version that takes the Christ or the mass out of it!) I don't say happy holidays for fear of offending--though if I am avoiding offense that obviously wouldn't be a bad thing. But it's not, for me, about placating possible unreasonable people who have something against Christ. It's more like being on the Internet on the Fourth of July and not automatically wishing somebody Happy fourth of July because I'm aware I might not be speaking to an American. -m From OctobersChild48 at aol.com Wed Dec 26 06:29:24 2007 From: OctobersChild48 at aol.com (OctobersChild48 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 01:29:24 EST Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? Message-ID: americanghosttour: No reason to force your beliefs on everyone you meet, even if you are just feeling festive. Sandy: I have worked with the public long enough to know that you can't please everyone, but you can please most. I celebrate Christmas strictly in a secular way being affiliated with no religion, so when I wish people a Merry Christmas, which I do liberally, I am not trying to force my beliefs on them. And during this entire Christmas season I have had only one person respond that they don't celebrate Christmas. Yes, I am feeling festive. I love the lights, the music, the food and giving gifts. If you don't I am sorry about that but my intentions are not to offend. I am 59 years old and have been wishing people a Merry Christmas my entire life, and I have no intention of ever not doing so. If you don't celebrate and are offended, my apologies, but most do and I will continue to address myself to the majority. Sandy **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From OctobersChild48 at aol.com Wed Dec 26 06:33:42 2007 From: OctobersChild48 at aol.com (OctobersChild48 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 01:33:42 EST Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Advent calendars Message-ID: Carol, still wondering how "Happy holidays" could ever have (nearly) > replaced "Merry Christmas" in a country (the U.S.) in which 94 percent > of the population celebrates Christmas > Well, only 79% of the population is Christian...Well, o Susan Well, it is still the majority... Sandy, who is not Christian but who does celebrate Christmas. **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From s_ings at yahoo.com Wed Dec 26 07:38:19 2007 From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 02:38:19 -0500 (EST) Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <139749.12193.qm@web63404.mail.re1.yahoo.com> I'm not going to quote anyone here, I think most people reading have followed the thread. I work in retail and wish customers Merry Christmas quite liberally. I had a regular customer come in yesterday with her daughter. I'd been asking a number of the children who came in to the store in the afternoon if they'd received nice gifts from Santa. For no particular reason, I didn't ask this little girl. I asked her mother if they celebrated Christmas. They do not. When asked, she informed me that they didn't celebrate any other holidays either, though they did take note of New Year's Day as a time to recognise the possibility of make new changes in their lives. She also thanked me for asking before addressing any Christmas related questions or wishes to her daughter. Apparently I am the first person to do so. Her daughter is about 5 and very well spoken. She as recently taken to starting great conversations with me when they're in the store. She asked yesterday why I celebrate Christmas. I simply told her that my religion chooses this day to celebrate the birth of Jesus. Her mother thanked me for a short, uncomplicated response that the daughter could understand. Her daughter, of course, had more to say and ask. I have to say, it was quite interesting to be informed by a 5 year old that she didn't celebrate Christmas because it was "wrong". Her mother was horrified that she said that to me, but I couldn't possibly have been offended. I had a number of customers who are definitely not Christian wish me a Merry Christmas. I thanked them and wished them the same. Aside from my wearing of Christmas socks, there is no indication to my customers of whether or not I celebrate Christmas. And my socks are definitely not visible from their side of the cash. One thing I find quite interesting is the assumption by customers that everyone working on Christmas is a person who celebrates Christmas. I wonder why people never seem to think that those working might be the staff who *don't* celebrate Christmas? Sheryll, crossing my fingers that the boss arrives home from her holidays on time and saves me from covering even part of her Boxing Day shift this evening Join the fun at Convention Alley 2008 Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail. Click on Options in Mail and switch to New Mail today or register for free at http://mail.yahoo.ca From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Wed Dec 26 08:11:31 2007 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 08:11:31 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: <139749.12193.qm@web63404.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Geoff: I'm coming more and more to the conclusion that this is a US versus UK thingjudging by the majority of responses from members of the group. Having lived in London for 45 years and down here in the West Country for 13, I cannot recall ever having being wished anything other than "Merry Christmas" or "Happy Christmas" either by individuals or in shops etc. It may be the slowness with which other religions have become part of British life but, until very recently, I have rarely seen references to other festivals such as, for example, Hanukkah or Diwali and - other than one or two notoriously PC councils who have banned official Christmas greetings and replaced them by something bland like "Winter Festival" - the above greeting is generally given and accepted by the majority of people at this time. From leekaiwen at yahoo.com Wed Dec 26 09:17:39 2007 From: leekaiwen at yahoo.com (Lee Kaiwen) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 17:17:39 +0800 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47721C33.3010601@yahoo.com> montims: > Truly, however the word is used today, a pagan has historically > been a non-christian. .. Goddlefrood: > Pagan historically referred to the old > pre-Christian religions, excluding Judaism. And, historically, of course, early Christians did not consider themselves non-Jews -- nor did anyone else. What drew me into this discussion was the claim of americanghosttour (who unfortunately seems to have vanished of late) that most Christmas traditions were Wiccan in origin (though he quite possibly intended pagan). There are at least three problems with the claim, one semantic, one mathematical, one historical. The first problem is what, precisely, does "pagan" mean? And in fact it doesn't mean anything precisely. Even the neo-pagan sites I've visited have difficulty defining it, and quickly devolve into sub-dividing "paganism" into more easily definable sub-groups -- neo-Wiccans, neo-Druids, even Hindus and Buddhists, of all things (and I suspect Hindus and Buddhists, at least, would be surprised to find themselves lumped together at all, and might have a thing or two to say about having to share a room with Gardnerian witches, Kemeticists and the Gwyddonic Order). Even in this discussion definitions seem to speak much more about what paganism isn't than what it is. But just saying "It's not Christian", or "non-Judeo-Christo-Islamism", is, to say the least, not terribly useful. A bit like responding to "What's your nationality?" with "I'm not American". Leaving "pagan" to mean no more than "non-Christian" reduces americanhosttour's claim to "most Christmas traditions are non-Christian in origin", a perhaps true, but ultimately not terribly productive, statement. Secondly, "most". "Most" generally requires, at a minimum, knowing how many of a thing there are. "Most boys at my school are taller than me" presumes I know a) how many boys there are at my school and b) how many are taller than me. So anyone care to tell us how many Christmas traditions there are? Didn't think so. Finally, if there's one thing we have learned in this discussion, it's that "most" Christmas traditions are a complex amalgam of earlier traditions and beliefs. Father Christmas/St. Nicholas is an pastiche of elements from many cultures -- too many for overly simplistic claims of ownership. In any case, claiming pagan origin simply begs the question, where did pagan practices originate? CJ From gav_fiji at yahoo.com Wed Dec 26 11:19:26 2007 From: gav_fiji at yahoo.com (Goddlefrood) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 11:19:26 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: <47721C33.3010601@yahoo.com> Message-ID: In: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/34644 Christian Stub? quoted from my earlier post: > (iv) Eight reindeers - Probably due to Odin's horse having > had 8 legs. and replied: No. The eight reindeer are due to the 1823 poem "An Account of a Visit from Saint Nicolas", otherwise known as "The Night before Christmas." Reindeer have little or nothing to do with giftbringing in Scandinavian Christmas tradition. Goddlefrood: I rarely make statements I couldn't back up, not that I've looked into this since well before the net was as it is now. This page: http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=540182 would show any interested that the origin of the eight reindeers is traced back to Odin's horse. In any event, it pre-dates a 19th century poem, so, no, I'm afraid to say that's a wrong source. Later in the same post (quoting me initially) > (v) FC's clothing - due to a coca cola advertising campaign > of the 1930s, iirc. Christian Stub? replied: A Norwegian newspaper recently noted that New York Times had described the uniformity of how Santa Claus was imagined - portly man, with white beard, red trousers and coat with fur trimming, and black boots - in an article predating the Coca Cola campaign. Goddlefrood: It may have had its sources skewed. Father Christmas was depicted in many and diverse outfits (in England anyway) before the 1930s. The coca cola company used it for an advertising campaign, which has now fixed his clothing as that campaign depicted. Read more here: http://www.woodlands-junior.kent.sch.uk/customs/Xmas/santa.html That's not to say that Santa Claus was not often depicted in red in the USA, he may well have been, but coca cola has a lot to answer for as far as Father Christmas is concerned. In: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/34659 > CJ: > In any case, claiming pagan origin simply begs the question, > where did pagan practices originate? Goddlefrood: That's an easy one. It is my opinion, but based on extensive reading and thought, that organised religion of all kinds that incorporate some kind of life after death originated because of man's fear of death. During the course of my life I've had to face the prospect of death, as I'm sure many others also have, and it's quite bleak to think there's nothing after death, which is the conclusion to which I came, dealt with and then moved on. Goddlefrood, who will be unable to attend this year's agm of the Royal and Ancient Polar Bear Society of which he's a member due to commitments in the south seas. From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Wed Dec 26 12:07:40 2007 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 12:07:40 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Goddlefrood" wrote: > Goddlefrood: > It is my opinion, but based on extensive reading and thought, that > organised religion of all kinds that incorporate some kind of life > after death originated because of man's fear of death. During the > course of my life I've had to face the prospect of death, as I'm > sure many others also have, and it's quite bleak to think there's > nothing after death, which is the conclusion to which I came, dealt > with and then moved on. Geoff: Speaking, as usual(!), as a Christian, I differentiate between "faith" and "religion". If someone says to me "You're religious aren't you?", my standard reply is "No. I'm a Christian". The problem with many people's view of belief is that it is rather like a set of rules which you sign up to and agree to keep ? a bit like a club perhaps. This does not really involve real faith, merely an attempt to follow these rules. In Christianity at least, the basic belief is that we follow a person and not a life style which we try to maintain by picking ourselves up by our own bootlaces. I believe that I had a personal meeting with God when I was at college and that I am guided by the Holy Spirit working within my life. Don't misunderstand me. That doesn't make me infallible or special. Despite the wish to follow God's guidance, all Christians will admit that they are sidetracked by worries, worldly demands, selfishness among other things. However, I am not led to believe that there is nothing beyond death. Religion can be a set of rules concocted by a human to suit their own desires. I think that other Christians on the group would agree with me that Christianity is a belief in someone we believe was involved in the creation of our universe and is there to guide and help us through the labyrinthine complexities of life. From jonathan_roberts2002 at yahoo.com Thu Dec 27 06:16:27 2007 From: jonathan_roberts2002 at yahoo.com (Jonathan Roberts) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 06:16:27 -0000 Subject: Wanted: Mystery Books by James Patterson/Patricia Cornwell/Mary Higgins Clark Message-ID: Wanted: Mystery Books... and any by James Patterson, Patrica Cornwell, Sarah Strohmeyer, Stuart Woods, Ann Perry, Mary Higgins Clark, Tami Hoag, Kay Hooper, Jonathan Kellerman, Sandra Brown, Carol G Hart, John Grisham, John D Macdonald, Sue Grafton, Phillip R. Craig. I would love to start collecting any by these authors. If you have some you no longer read and dont mind giving them away to someone who might injoy them. Please give me a shout. Im on a fixed permant income do to my health and I have no wheels to get out of the house. If you can help me, it would mean the world to have some good books. Jonathan From marion11111 at yahoo.com Thu Dec 27 19:30:09 2007 From: marion11111 at yahoo.com (marion11111) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 19:30:09 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: <139749.12193.qm@web63404.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Sheryl, I wonder if the family was Jehovah's Witness. In my community, a number of families are Jehovah's Witness and they do not celebrate any reigious or patriotic holidays or personal birthdays. In my experience, the parents make a point to teach their children how to respond politely when facing a situation involving religious greetings, parties, birthdays, the pledge of allegiance, etc. I am always impressed by how calm and polite the children are. A co-worker who is a Jehovah's Witness said they start role-playing these situations with the kids at an early age. This is one of the mian reasons we avoid too much holiday fuss at school. While the kids are always free to opt out of celebrations, it really isn't nice or fair to ask such little ones to have to do something that makes them feel "different." Some take part anyway and I can only imagine how guilty they must feel inside. I think we can all remember how guilty we felt as kids when we did something that we'd been told was a "sin." Honestly, I remember thinking Jesus was writing down every time I lied or said a bad word! --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Sheryll Townsend wrote: > > I'm not going to quote anyone here, I think most > people reading have followed the thread. > > I work in retail and wish customers Merry Christmas > quite liberally. I had a regular customer come in > yesterday with her daughter. I'd been asking a number > of the children who came in to the store in the > afternoon if they'd received nice gifts from Santa. > For no particular reason, I didn't ask this little > girl. I asked her mother if they celebrated Christmas. > They do not. When asked, she informed me that they > didn't celebrate any other holidays either, though > they did take note of New Year's Day as a time to > recognise the possibility of make new changes in their > lives. She also thanked me for asking before > addressing any Christmas related questions or wishes > to her daughter. Apparently I am the first person to > do so. > > Her daughter is about 5 and very well spoken. She as > recently taken to starting great conversations with me > when they're in the store. She asked yesterday why I > celebrate Christmas. I simply told her that my > religion chooses this day to celebrate the birth of > Jesus. Her mother thanked me for a short, > uncomplicated response that the daughter could > understand. Her daughter, of course, had more to say > and ask. I have to say, it was quite interesting to be > informed by a 5 year old that she didn't celebrate > Christmas because it was "wrong". Her mother was > horrified that she said that to me, but I couldn't > possibly have been offended. > > From bboyminn at yahoo.com Thu Dec 27 21:27:20 2007 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 21:27:20 -0000 Subject: December Boys NOT Available in Video Stores Message-ID: Recently I went into my local 'Movie Gallery' video rental store and saw a place holder for 'December Boys'. I thought it was already rented out so I went back each day for the next four days hoping it would be there. Eventually the clerked checked for me, and even though they had the place holder (looks like the video box cover) on the shelf, they didn't have the video in stock. I check the local (small town) Blockbuster, and Hollywood Video, and none of them had it, even though it was released on Dec 18. Hollywood Video website does claim their stores have it in stock but the local store didn't. I can't understand the reluctance. The movie cost US$20, likely the video stores get it wholesale so US$15. If they rent it four or five times, they would get their money back on it. Certainly, even a small limited audience film like this will get rented 5 times. I suggest that we each inquire at our own local video stores to see if they have it in stock. If they get enough requests, even if those requests occur is a diverse area, it would send a message that there are people out here who do want to see it. I've noticed that critics rated it relatively low, 2 out of 5 stars, but fans who have seen it consistently rated it 3 to 4 out of 5 stars. Most, if not all, of the criticizm was leveled at the director, not the actors. Keeping in mind that this is a low-budget independent film. That's one of the hardest parts of living in a small town, there are virtually no independent films available. Maybe we can get a ground swell going and get it into local video stores. Please inquire at your local video store. Steve/bboyminn From tfaucette6387 at charter.net Thu Dec 27 21:42:49 2007 From: tfaucette6387 at charter.net (anne_t_squires) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 21:42:49 -0000 Subject: December Boys NOT Available in Video Stores In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > Recently I went into my local 'Movie Gallery' video rental store > and saw a place holder for 'December Boys'. I thought it was > already rented out so I went back each day for the next four > days hoping it would be there. Eventually the clerked checked > for me, and even though they had the place holder (looks like > the video box cover) on the shelf, they didn't have the video > in stock. > > I check the local (small town) Blockbuster, and Hollywood Video, > and none of them had it, even though it was released on Dec 18. > Hollywood Video website does claim their stores have it in > stock but the local store didn't. > > I can't understand the reluctance. The movie cost US$20, likely > the video stores get it wholesale so US$15. If they rent it four > or five times, they would get their money back on it. Certainly, > even a small limited audience film like this will get rented 5 > times. > > I suggest that we each inquire at our own local video stores to > see if they have it in stock. If they get enough requests, > even if those requests occur is a diverse area, it would send > a message that there are people out here who do want to see it. > > I've noticed that critics rated it relatively low, 2 out of 5 > stars, but fans who have seen it consistently rated it 3 to 4 > out of 5 stars. Most, if not all, of the criticizm was leveled > at the director, not the actors. Keeping in mind that this is > a low-budget independent film. That's one of the hardest parts > of living in a small town, there are virtually no independent > films available. > > Maybe we can get a ground swell going and get it into local > video stores. Please inquire at your local video store. > > Steve/bboyminn > I haven't checked at the local video stores; but on Sunday I came across it quite by accident at Walmart. They had several copies, in fact. It also looked like several copies had already been purchased because there were labels in front of two rows and one of the rows was empty. I bought it, of course. I haven't had time to watch it yet. Maybe tonight. I'll let you know what I think. From Schlobin at aol.com Fri Dec 28 01:24:39 2007 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 01:24:39 -0000 Subject: women, men, reading, HP Message-ID: NPR : Why Women Read More Than Men http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=14175229&sc=emaf Here's the bit about HP There are exceptions to the fiction gap. More boys than girls have read The Harry Potter series, according to its U.S. publisher, Scholastic. What's more, Harry Potter made more of an impact on boys' reading habits. Sixty-one percent agreed with the statement "I didn't read books for fun before reading Harry Potter," compared with 41 percent of girls From Schlobin at aol.com Fri Dec 28 01:55:47 2007 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 01:55:47 -0000 Subject: anyone see this? Message-ID: Excerpts from Chinese fan fic http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/10/opinion/10potter.html?_r=1&oref=login From tonks_op at yahoo.com Fri Dec 28 02:39:01 2007 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 02:39:01 -0000 Subject: Pagan (was What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: <8ee758b40712241749k5cff9704n2160091925bcb4b4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: As I understand it the term 'pagan' was orginally a person who was a peasant, a person living in a rural area outside of Rome. As time went on it came to be many other things related to religion, as others here have mentioned. Tonks_op From tonks_op at yahoo.com Fri Dec 28 02:56:58 2007 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 02:56:58 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Geoff: > Speaking, as usual(!), as a Christian, I differentiate > between "faith" and "religion". If someone says to me > "You're religious aren't you?", my standard reply is "No. > I'm a Christian". snip) In Christianity at least, the basic belief > is that we follow a person and not a life style which we > try to maintain by picking ourselves up by our own bootlaces. Tonks: I guess I would answer to someone asking if I were religious, "Yes, I am a Christian". (Or if asked 'are you a Religious'(cap.R), "Yes, Benedictine".) In the first case I assume the question to be "do you believe in God?". I would answer, yes and say what "way" or belief I was following. I am sure you know that Christianity was orginally called "the Way". The second is, of course, a noun and the answer shows the method of living in the 'Way' of Christ. Tonks_op From tonks_op at yahoo.com Fri Dec 28 03:17:46 2007 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 03:17:46 -0000 Subject: 2 Christmas seasons Message-ID: Just one final comment on Christmas. Most religious people that I know celebrate the religious Christmas season. Most non-religious celebrate the secular Christmas season. What is the difference, you ask? The secular Christmas begins in the U.S. the day after Thanksgiving and ends at midnight on December 25th. The religious Christmas begins at midnight on December 24th and end at midnight on January 5th. Those who observe only the religious Christmas do not have decoration up until December 24th and keep them up till after Epiphany on January 6th. During the time of the secular Christmas it is Advent and a time of prayers and waiting. I love Christmas so much, and as a Child and later as an Atheist always started celebrating the season on the day after Thanksgiving, so when I became a Christian and learned about Advent, I just couldn't get into the no decoration part of it. So I love the secular commercial Christmas. And, of course, I love the religious Christmas. Combine them and I can celebrate from the day after Thanksgiving to January 6th!! The best of both worlds! Happy 3rd day of Christmas everyone!! Tonks_op From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 28 03:24:59 2007 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 03:24:59 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "marion11111" wrote: > > Sheryl, I wonder if the family was Jehovah's Witness. In my community, a number of > families are Jehovah's Witness and they do not celebrate any reigious or patriotic holidays > or personal birthdays. In my experience, the parents make a point to teach their children > how to respond politely when facing a situation involving religious greetings, parties, > birthdays, the pledge of allegiance, etc. I am always impressed by how calm and polite > the children are. A co-worker who is a Jehovah's Witness said they start role-playing > these situations with the kids at an early age. Alla: It would be my thought too. I have a coworker who is Jehovah's Witness and she does not go to office holiday parties. She is a wonderful person, smart, hardworking and very very polite, but I do wonder what she would have thought of me despite her being polite if I decided to wish her Merry Christmas. I mean, I doubt she would have said anything to me (or maybe she would say that she does not celebrate), but she would not have been very happy I think. I mean, I guess this is the situation where she would not have been happy had I wished her Happy holidays either, so it is a good thing I learned that I should not. Magpie: But it's not, for me, about placating possible unreasonable people who have something against Christ. It's more like being on the Internet on the Fourth of July and not automatically wishing somebody Happy fourth of July because I'm aware I might not be speaking to an American. Alla: Exactly. From Schlobin at aol.com Fri Dec 28 04:41:06 2007 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 04:41:06 -0000 Subject: Pagan (was What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" wrote: > > As I understand it the term 'pagan' was orginally a person who was a > peasant, a person living in a rural area outside of Rome. As time went > on it came to be many other things related to religion, as others here > have mentioned. > > Tonks_op > Anyone really interested in this subject can check out the wikipedia articles on paganism, neopaganism, or wicca....or the summaries on beliefnet.org (also covers all other religions Susan From Schlobin at aol.com Fri Dec 28 04:43:28 2007 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 04:43:28 -0000 Subject: Pagan (was What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Susan Also, beliefnet.org has a test where you can see where your beliefs fit into organized religion or spiritual practice... From alexisnguyen at gmail.com Fri Dec 28 14:09:01 2007 From: alexisnguyen at gmail.com (P. Alexis Nguyen) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 09:09:01 -0500 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] women, men, reading, HP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: susanmcgee48176: > NPR : Why Women Read More Than Men > http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=14175229&sc=emaf What stood out for me about this article wasn't the HP portion (sacrilege, I know) but this sentence: "Young people, in general, read less than older people..." That makes me really sad. I have books at home, at my parents' house, in pristine condition because I loved those books so much, not because I never read them. I remember blowing *all* my allowance (and any other money I came into) on books of all sorts - fiction, nonfiction, astronomy books, et cetera. I rarely read now (not including re-reads) and am one of those "typical Americans" who read about 4 books a year, but I think that's a problem of time constraint, especially true when one speaks of people with families, so my guess would have been that young people read more than older people. I feel a little sadder now. ~Ali :*( From sistermagpie at earthlink.net Fri Dec 28 15:50:23 2007 From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 15:50:23 -0000 Subject: People reading less (was: Re: women, men, reading, HP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > susanmcgee48176: > > NPR : Why Women Read More Than Men > > http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php? storyId=14175229&sc=emaf > > What stood out for me about this article wasn't the HP portion > (sacrilege, I know) but this sentence: "Young people, in general, read > less than older people..." > > That makes me really sad. I have books at home, at my parents' house, > in pristine condition because I loved those books so much, not because > I never read them. I remember blowing *all* my allowance (and any > other money I came into) on books of all sorts - fiction, nonfiction, > astronomy books, et cetera. I rarely read now (not including re- reads) > and am one of those "typical Americans" who read about 4 books a year, > but I think that's a problem of time constraint, especially true when > one speaks of people with families, so my guess would have been that > young people read more than older people. > > I feel a little sadder now. Magpie: There were a lot of articles this weekend about reading because the NEA did a survey that showed how much less people read. I remember one that was about how readers actually think differently than non- readers and what that might or might not mean for the future. Another thing I remember that I liked was something challenging claims made by some that if you want exercise for your brain video games were just as good or better because you had to think faster. The article pointed out that the kind of "exercise" you get from reading is totally different and depends on it being easy. When you read your mind can follow the reading easily enough but also have its own train of thought going alongside the story. So no surprise--reading rules.:-) -m From bboyminn at yahoo.com Fri Dec 28 18:06:26 2007 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 18:06:26 -0000 Subject: Pagan (was What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- "susanmcgee48176" wrote: > > > > Susan > Also, beliefnet.org has a test where you can see where your > beliefs fit into organized religion or spiritual practice... > bboyminn: Just out of curiosity, I took the 'Belief-O-Meter' test. I was surprised, I thought Buddhism would rank higher on my list. None the less, here are my Top 10 associated Belief Systems. 1. Unitarian Universalism (100%) 2. New Age (97%) 3. Neo-Pagan (93%) 4. Liberal Quakers (89%) 5. New Thought (89%) 6. Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (87%) 7. Reform Judaism (84%) 8. Mahayana Buddhism (81%) 9. Scientology (75%) 10. Sikhism (74%) I was also surprised that 'Neo-Pagan' was number 3. The test is a series of multiple choice questions. Some of them, as in all multiple choice questions, are limited in context. Some social and religious questions are not confined to simple one statement answers. Still, it was a very interesting excersize. Steve/bboyminn From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 28 20:08:18 2007 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 20:08:18 -0000 Subject: Pagan (was What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > > Susan > > Also, beliefnet.org has a test where you can see where your > > beliefs fit into organized religion or spiritual practice... > > > > bboyminn: > > Just out of curiosity, I took the 'Belief-O-Meter' test. I > was surprised, I thought Buddhism would rank higher on my > list. > > None the less, here are my Top 10 associated Belief Systems. > Alla: Heee, I did too. I was absolutely surprised by the first choice. Not because I care whether my beliefs are matched closely to what Liberal Quakers believe in, just I had no idea what exactly they believe in. I knew that reform judaism would match close enough, that's for sure though. 1. Liberal Quakers (100%) 2. Unitarian Universalism (97%) 3. Reform Judaism (91%) 4. Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (84%) 5. Neo-Pagan (83%) 6. Bah?'? Faith (78%) 7. New Age (75%) 8. Mahayana Buddhism (67%) 9. Sikhism (65%) 10. Orthodox Judaism (65%) From s_ings at yahoo.com Fri Dec 28 22:14:23 2007 From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 17:14:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: December Boys NOT Available in Video Stores In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <697377.83774.qm@web63415.mail.re1.yahoo.com> "Steve" > wrote: > > > > I check the local (small town) Blockbuster, and > Hollywood Video, > > and none of them had it, even though it was > released on Dec 18. > > Hollywood Video website does claim their stores > have it in > > stock but the local store didn't. > > > > I can't understand the reluctance. The movie cost > US$20, likely > > the video stores get it wholesale so US$15. If > they rent it four > > or five times, they would get their money back on > it. Certainly, > > even a small limited audience film like this will > get rented 5 > > times. > > > > I suggest that we each inquire at our own local > video stores to > > see if they have it in stock. If they get enough > requests, > > even if those requests occur is a diverse area, it > would send > > a message that there are people out here who do > want to see it. > > > > Maybe we can get a ground swell going and get it > into local > > video stores. Please inquire at your local video > store. > > > Sheryll: Just an FYI on the likelihood of that working. Sad to say, most stores don't order for themselves, at least not with the chains. Our orders are sent to us with no input on our part. If a title isn't received on release, we aren't going to carry it as a rental. That said, if you have a local independent video store, the odds of getting them to carry a title is much better. Sheryll, whose store did not get December Boys but who did see it for sale at Future Shop yesterday Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail. Click on Options in Mail and switch to New Mail today or register for free at http://mail.yahoo.ca From kempermentor at yahoo.com Sat Dec 29 02:22:01 2007 From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kemper mentor) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 18:22:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Pagan (was What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? Message-ID: <989321.73954.qm@web90410.mail.mud.yahoo.com> > Susan Also, beliefnet.org has a test where you can see where your beliefs fit into organized religion or spiritual practice... Kemper now: I did it too... 1. Neo Pagan (100%) 2. New Age (99%) 3. Unitarian Universalism (97%) 4. Liberal Quakers (87%) 5. Mahayana Buddhism (87%) 6. New Thought (85%) 7. Theravada Buddhism (81%) 8. Scientology (81%) --Super Eff That! Kemper ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From s_ings at yahoo.com Sat Dec 29 03:35:47 2007 From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 22:35:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <813082.85939.qm@web63408.mail.re1.yahoo.com> --- marion11111 wrote: > Sheryl, I wonder if the family was Jehovah's > Witness. In my community, a number of > families are Jehovah's Witness and they do not > celebrate any reigious or patriotic holidays > or personal birthdays. In my experience, the > parents make a point to teach their children > how to respond politely when facing a situation > involving religious greetings, parties, > birthdays, the pledge of allegiance, etc. I am > always impressed by how calm and polite > the children are. A co-worker who is a Jehovah's > Witness said they start role-playing > these situations with the kids at an early age. > > This is one of the mian reasons we avoid too much > holiday fuss at school. While the kids > are always free to opt out of celebrations, it > really isn't nice or fair to ask such little ones to > > have to do something that makes them feel > "different." Some take part anyway and I can > only imagine how guilty they must feel inside. I > think we can all remember how guilty we > felt as kids when we did something that we'd been > told was a "sin." Honestly, I remember > thinking Jesus was writing down every time I lied or > said a bad word! > Sheryll: The same thing occurred to me but I seem to recall some discussion about the daughter's birthday at one point. Of course I could be remembering that incorrectly. One of my daughter's classmates in grade school was a Jehovah's Witness. So as to not to have her totally excluded from things we used have a birthday party for my daughter and then a lunch that was really just a lunch. A couple kids would come over and just eat together and play. No cake, no presents, just a nice gathering of friends. That way her friend could participate as well. Sheryll Join the fun at Convention Alley 2008 Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! http://www.flickr.com/gift/ From gwharrison53 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 29 04:09:47 2007 From: gwharrison53 at yahoo.com (gwharrison53 at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 20:09:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re-Airing of when Dan R was on LIVE - R & K Message-ID: <200712290409.lBT49mPD007545@upsa-web124.ofoto.com> You're invited to view my online photos at the Gallery. Enjoy! You're invited to view these photos online at KODAK Gallery! Just click on View Photos to get started. http://www.kodakgallery.com/I.jsp?c=brptja83.7l9g4y9r&x=0&h=1&y=-8a8l2x If you'd like to save this album, just sign in, or if you're new to the Gallery, create a free account. Once you've signed in, you'll be able to view this album whenever you want and order Kodak prints of your favorite photos. Enjoy! Instructions: Click view photos to begin. If you're an existing member you'll be asked to sign in. If not, you can join the Gallery for free. http://www.kodakgallery.com/Register.jsp Questions? Visit http://help.kodakgallery.com. ------------------------------------------------------------ The KODAK Gallery Customer Service Team Phone: 800-360-9098 / 512-651-9770 Outside of the US and Canada ------------------------------------------------------------ If you cannot see the links above, copy and paste the following URL directly into your browser: http://www.kodakgallery.com/I.jsp?c=brptja83.7l9g4y9r&x=0&h=1&y=-8a8l2x [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From predigirl1 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 29 04:48:01 2007 From: predigirl1 at yahoo.com (Alex Hogan) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2007 04:48:01 -0000 Subject: OotP Standee! Happy X-mas! Message-ID: I love my sister-in-law! For years now I have gone begging and pleading at every store that had them, for all the large displays of HP when the DVD's come out. I have one HECK of a collection (running out of room in my house)! But Lynell topped them this year! She got me an unopened 5 foot by 4 foot display of "Order" complete with a large prophesy sphere with Lord Thingy in it, that had to be attatched to it! And a foot long OotP wand pen! I love her! Alex Hogan From tonks_op at yahoo.com Sat Dec 29 05:36:24 2007 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2007 05:36:24 -0000 Subject: BeliefNet Quiz (was Pagan ) In-Reply-To: <989321.73954.qm@web90410.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > > Susan > > Also, beliefnet.org has a test where you can see where your beliefs fit into organized religion or spiritual practice... > Tonks: OK, I took it too. Here is mine. Since I am a Liberal High Church Episcopalian, it fits. 1. Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (100%) 2. Orthodox Quaker (100%) 3. Seventh Day Adventist (80%) 4. Eastern Orthodox (79%) 5. Roman Catholic (79%) 6. Liberal Quakers (78%) 7. Mainline to Conservative Christian/Protestant (77%) 8. Unitarian Universalism (65%) 9. Hinduism (63%) 10. Reform Judaism (62%) 11. Sikhism (59%) 12. Orthodox Judaism (57%) 13. Bah??? Faith (50%) 14. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) (45%) 15. Islam (44%) 16. Theravada Buddhism (44%) 17. Mahayana Buddhism (43%) 18. Neo-Pagan (41%) 19. Jainism (38%) 20. Jehovah's Witness (37%) 21. Taoism (36%) 22. New Age (35%) 23. Secular Humanism (33%) 24. Christian Science (Church of Christ, Scientist) (31%) 25. New Thought (28%) 26. Scientology (27%) 27. Nontheist (16%) Spiritial Practice quiz results: 80% - Confident Believer Tonks_op From Schlobin at aol.com Sat Dec 29 09:16:16 2007 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2007 09:16:16 -0000 Subject: anyone seen Mugglenet's clip of JKR's biography? Message-ID: Woooooooo! We find out that it IS James Sirius (son of Harry and Ginny), that George married Angelina, and had Fred and Roxane that Percy married Audrey and had Molly and Lucy... that Harry and Ginny's daughter Lily's middle name is Luna.... that Bill and Fleur had not only Victoire (named because she was born one year after the Battle of Hogwarts was one) but also Dominique and Louis....and that Luna married Rolf Scamander (grandson of Newt) and had Lorcan and Lysander..... Susan From s_ings at yahoo.com Sat Dec 29 14:47:25 2007 From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2007 09:47:25 -0500 (EST) Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] OotP Standee! Happy X-mas! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <656210.6444.qm@web63403.mail.re1.yahoo.com> --- Alex Hogan wrote: > I love my sister-in-law! For years now I have gone > begging and pleading > at every store that had them, for all the large > displays of HP when the > DVD's come out. I have one HECK of a collection > (running out of room in > my house)! But Lynell topped them this year! She got > me an unopened 5 > foot by 4 foot display of "Order" complete with a > large prophesy sphere > with Lord Thingy in it, that had to be attatched to > it! And a foot long > OotP wand pen! I love her! > Sheryll: I'm so jealous! We had a standee at work for the DVD display and didn't even open it. Pretty much everyone knew I'd take it home, except... we have a new person on staff and he cleaned up the back room. Yeah, you guessed it. The next time I came to work he'd tossed it in the dumpster. *sigh* Sheryll Join the fun at Convention Alley 2008 Looking for a X-Mas gift? Everybody needs a Flickr Pro Account. http://www.flickr.com/gift/ From bboyminn at yahoo.com Sat Dec 29 17:49:02 2007 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2007 17:49:02 -0000 Subject: anyone seen Mugglenet's clip of JKR's biography? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- "susanmcgee48176" wrote: > > Woooooooo! > > We find out that it IS James Sirius (son of Harry and Ginny), > that George married Angelina, and had Fred and Roxane > that Percy married Audrey and had Molly and Lucy... > that Harry and Ginny's daughter Lily's middle name is Luna.... > that Bill and Fleur had not only Victoire (named because she > was born one year after the Battle of Hogwarts was one) but > also Dominique and Louis....and that Luna married Rolf > Scamander (grandson of Newt) and had Lorcan and Lysander..... > > Susan > bboyminn: You can see a copy of the Weasley/Potter family tree at this website - Times Online - "The unwritten story of Harry's friends and their children" http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/books/article3105517.ece Steve/bboyminn From tonks_op at yahoo.com Sat Dec 29 19:58:26 2007 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2007 19:58:26 -0000 Subject: Deathly Hallows sign in Edinburgh???? Message-ID: I was just watching a travel log on PBS, and they were touring Edinburgh. There was a quick scan of one of the streets and off to the left, I saw above, I think, a shop, something that looked a bit like part of the symbol of the Deathly Hallows. I never saw it after that one quick scene. It was a triangle with a cirle in it. No Wand down the center. What could that have been!!???? Does anyone have a clue??? I think it was in color, but now I don't know if I just imagined the color. I thought the triangle was red. There was no mention of Rowling, and I think this documentary was done some time ago. What did I see?????? Tonks_op From tonks_op at yahoo.com Sat Dec 29 20:01:33 2007 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2007 20:01:33 -0000 Subject: OotP Standee! Happy X-mas! In-Reply-To: <656210.6444.qm@web63403.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Sheryll Townsend wrote: > > Sheryll: > > I'm so jealous! We had a standee at work for the DVD > display and didn't even open it. Pretty much everyone > knew I'd take it home, except... we have a new person > on staff and he cleaned up the back room. > > Yeah, you guessed it. The next time I came to work > he'd tossed it in the dumpster. *sigh* Tonks: FIRE HIM!!! What an idiot!! Not a HP fan, for sure. Where are those death eaters when you need one!! Tonks_op From marion11111 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 29 21:45:52 2007 From: marion11111 at yahoo.com (marion11111) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2007 21:45:52 -0000 Subject: anyone seen Mugglenet's clip of JKR's biography? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: So, it looks like Charlie remains a "confirmed old bachelor." Scorpius Hyperion? Poor thing. Of course, Lily Luna isn't much better. And really, I liked my little fantasy that Victoire was secretly named after Krum. marion11111 --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > --- "susanmcgee48176" wrote: > > > > Woooooooo! > > > > We find out that it IS James Sirius (son of Harry and Ginny), > > that George married Angelina, and had Fred and Roxane > > that Percy married Audrey and had Molly and Lucy... > > that Harry and Ginny's daughter Lily's middle name is Luna.... > > that Bill and Fleur had not only Victoire (named because she > > was born one year after the Battle of Hogwarts was one) but > > also Dominique and Louis....and that Luna married Rolf > > Scamander (grandson of Newt) and had Lorcan and Lysander..... > > > > Susan > > > > bboyminn: > > You can see a copy of the Weasley/Potter family tree at this > website - > > Times Online - "The unwritten story of Harry's friends and their children" > http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/boo ks/article3105517.ece > > Steve/bboyminn > From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 29 22:05:36 2007 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2007 22:05:36 -0000 Subject: "The Hobbit" to be produced after all In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > > --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" > wrote: > > Carol: > > Peter Jackson and New Line have finally come to terms and he'll be > > making "the Hobbit" after all! At any rate, he'll be executive > > producer for "the Hobbit" and its sequel (????). I don't know whether > > he'll be directing or not. > > Geoff: > But he's already made the sequel - it's called > "The Lord of the Rings". > :-) > Carol responds: LOL. But it looks like he's planning a "Hobbit II" to follow "The Hobbit." Maybe it will cover the ground that the LOTR film left out, between Bilbo's return to Hobbiton and "The Long-Expected Party," along with a visit from *Bilbo* to Tom Bombadil, though I don't see how it can be plotted with any kind of crisis or climax. Either that, or "The Hobbit" will come out in two parts, enabling them to get in every scene in the book. That seems to me more likely. Carol, hoping to hear more about it in the near future From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 29 22:18:40 2007 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2007 22:18:40 -0000 Subject: Advent calendars In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "susanmcgee48176" wrote: > > > > > Carol, still wondering how "Happy holidays" could ever have (nearly) replaced "Merry Christmas" in a country (the U.S.) in which 94 percent of the population celebrates Christmas > > > > Well, only 79% of the population is Christian...so..... > > Susan > Carol responds: And yet 94 percent of Americans, fifteen percent of whom don't attend church or consider themselves as belonging to any Christian denomination, celebrate Christmas. Can't speak for other countries, but evidently the trend is only occurring in the U.S. Carol, who thinks that Christmas is about love, peace, and joy and wishes she could share that feeling with everyone From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 29 22:54:36 2007 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2007 22:54:36 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Susan wrote: > Debatable that most Christmas traditions were originally pagan? > When I grew up in the Catholic Church, it was explained specifically > to me that Catholics were trying to suppress pagan religion and were > deliberately adopting some of the imagery.... > > What do you think ISN'T pagan about Christmas? The birth of the son > of god? The tree? The Yule log? > > Susan > Carol responds: What's not pagan about Christmas is, for example, the Nativity story (though there are pagan analogues) and the Three Wise Men (originally associated with Epiphany). But, of course, mistletoe and holly, Yule logs, Christmas trees, etc., have pagan origins. Which makes me wonder why pagans don't simply embrace Christmas as a pagan holiday, another name for Yule, and if not actually wishing others a merry Christmas, at least accept the greeting in the spirit of peace, love, and joy in which it's intended. Carol, who always writes "Merry Christmas and Happy New Year" in her Christmas cards From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 29 22:56:34 2007 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2007 22:56:34 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Susan: > So, if someone wishes you "bright blessings this samhain", you'd be > delighted because they'd be wishing you something good? My best guess > is that you'd run screaming from the room.... > > Susan > Carol: On the contrary. I'd say, "Same to you." Carol, who would never take offense at being wished a happy or blessed anything From tonks_op at yahoo.com Sun Dec 30 00:00:07 2007 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2007 00:00:07 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" wrote: > > Susan: > > > So, if someone wishes you "bright blessings this samhain", you'd be > > delighted because they'd be wishing you something good? My best guess is that you'd run screaming from the room.... > > > > > Carol: > On the contrary. I'd say, "Same to you." > > Carol, who would never take offense at being wished a happy or blessed > anything > Tonks: I agree with Carol. And on that note, since it is close to Alla's favorite Holiday... Have a Happy, Happy New Year!! Peace, Tonks_op From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sun Dec 30 00:00:22 2007 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2007 00:00:22 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Catlady wrote: > I've stolen it so much that I dare silently get a little annoyed at > the slogan "Jesus is the reason for the season" because whatever > god(s) one believes in (such as Jesus, for the people who use that > slogan) is the reason for *all* seasons, not just winter, but > Christmas is not a season. Carol responds: Actually, Christmas *is* a season, at least in the Episcopal and Anglican churches, and, I assume, in the Roman Catholic Church, as well. Posters from other denominations are welcome to enlighten me as to their views. At any rate, in the Episcopal Church, December 1 through December 24 is the season of Advent (awaiting the coming of Christ, a season of penitence and hope). December 25 is, of course, Christmas Day, and the first day of the Christmas season, which lasts twelve days and ends with Epiphany (January 6). The season of Epiphany ends when Lent begins (variable because the date of Easter is variable). Lent ends with Easter, which begins the Easter season, which lasts until Pentecost (fifty days after Easter). I'm not sure how long Pentecost lasts, but as it only affects church services and no one celebrates it at home (to my knowledge), it doesn't matter. At any rate, by my calculations, today is the fifth day of Christmas, that is, the Christmas season. Question for Alla: I thought that Rosh Hahanah was the day of Atonement. Is it proper to wish someone joy on that day? It seems rather like wishing someone "Happy Lent" or "Happy Good Friday." (Not that I would take offense at such a greeting. I would just consider it odd.) Carol, wishing you all joy and a Merry fifth Day of Christmas, with no offense intended to those who don't celebrate it (which is probably everyone but me) From drdara at yahoo.com Sun Dec 30 00:06:47 2007 From: drdara at yahoo.com (danielle dassero) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2007 16:06:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] BeliefNet: Message-ID: <577122.70660.qm@web60725.mail.yahoo.com> This was my results, looked up the definition of the #1 and agreed with it lol on the spiritual type, I think I scored 79, agreed with the big stuff, had questions about the other stuff 1. Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (100%) 2. Liberal Quakers (87%) 3. Unitarian Universalism (83%) 4. Neo-Pagan (63%) 5. Orthodox Quaker (63%) 6. Reform Judaism (63%) 7. New Age (62%) 8. Bah?'? Faith (61%) 9. Mahayana Buddhism (58%) 10. Secular Humanism (57%) 11. Mainline to Conservative Christian/Protestant (52%) 12. Theravada Buddhism (52%) 13. Sikhism (49%) 14. Christian Science (Church of Christ, Scientist) (47%) 15. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) (46%) 16. New Thought (44%) 17. Taoism (42%) 18. Jainism (40%) 19. Orthodox Judaism (39%) 20. Eastern Orthodox (37%) 21. Roman Catholic (37%) 22. Islam (35%) 23. Jehovah's Witness (33%) 24. Nontheist (33%) 25. Seventh Day Adventist (32%) 26. Scientology (32%) 27. Hinduism (30%) ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Dec 30 00:08:01 2007 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2007 00:08:01 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Carol responds: Question for Alla: I thought that Rosh Hahanah was the day of Atonement. Is it proper to wish someone joy on that day? It seems rather like wishing someone "Happy Lent" or "Happy Good Friday." (Not that I would take offense at such a greeting. I would just consider it odd.) Alla: Yom Kippur is day of the atonement, which supposed to come close enough after Rosh Hashanah. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sun Dec 30 00:51:13 2007 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2007 00:51:13 -0000 Subject: Pagan (was What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > bboyminn: > > > > Just out of curiosity, I took the 'Belief-O-Meter' test. I was surprised, I thought Buddhism would rank higher on my list. > > > > None the less, here are my Top 10 associated Belief Systems. > > > > > Alla: > > Heee, I did too. I was absolutely surprised by the first choice. Not > because I care whether my beliefs are matched closely to what > Liberal Quakers believe in, just I had no idea what exactly they > believe in. > > I knew that reform judaism would match close enough, that's for sure > though. > > 1. Liberal Quakers (100%) > 2. Unitarian Universalism (97%) > 3. Reform Judaism (91%) > 4. Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (84%) > 5. Neo-Pagan (83%) > 6. Bah?'? Faith (78%) > 7. New Age (75%) > 8. Mahayana Buddhism (67%) > 9. Sikhism (65%) > 10. Orthodox Judaism (65%) > Carol responds: I wonder about the reliability of this survey. At any rate, my results are rather surprisingly similar to yours: 1. Liberal Quakers (100%) 2. Reform Judaism (100%) 3. Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (98%) 4. Neo-Pagan (96%) 5. Unitarian Universalism (93%) 6. Bah?'? Faith (92%) 7. Sikhism (87%) 8. New Age (85%) 9. Mahayana Buddhism (80%) 10. Theravada Buddhism (78%) 11. New Thought (73%) 12. Secular Humanism (73%) 13. Orthodox Quaker (70%) 14. Orthodox Judaism (67%) 15. Scientology (65%) Carol, wondering if perhaps Protestants and neo-pagans have more in common than either group thinks From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sun Dec 30 01:09:18 2007 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2007 01:09:18 -0000 Subject: anyone seen Mugglenet's clip of JKR's biography? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: bboyminn: > > You can see a copy of the Weasley/Potter family tree at this website - > > Times Online - "The unwritten story of Harry's friends and their children" > http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/books/article3105517.ece > Carol: Yes, and she thinks that Fred died in 1997. Will someone please tell her that DH runs from July 1997 through May 1998? But, then, DD's death date in the archived Wizard of the Month cards is also wrong. Carol, who wanted Percy to marry Penelope Clearwater in the Hogwarts tradition of marrying your school sweetheart (and Angelina was Fred's date to the Yule Ball, not George's) From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sun Dec 30 01:13:56 2007 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2007 01:13:56 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > > Carol responds: > > Question for Alla: I thought that Rosh Hahanah was the day of Atonement. Is it proper to wish someone joy on that day? It seems rather like wishing someone "Happy Lent" or "Happy Good Friday." (Not that I would take offense at such a greeting. I would just consider it > odd.) > > > Alla: > > Yom Kippur is day of the atonement, which supposed to come close enough after Rosh Hashanah. > Carol responds: Oops! I should have looked it up. Carol, blushing for her blunder and also apologizing for so many posts in one day (I'm behind thanks to Christmas!) From n2fgc at arrl.net Sun Dec 30 01:47:00 2007 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Lee Storm(God Is The Healing Force)) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2007 20:47:00 -0500 Subject: My Last Word (Re: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000701c84a85$dee8e590$67a4a8c0@FRODO> I've made my decision!! I have decided to wish y'all a: Happy ChristHanuKwanSol... And A Happy New Year! :-) Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at arrl.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at optonline.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From willsonkmom at msn.com Sun Dec 30 02:37:41 2007 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2007 02:37:41 -0000 Subject: anyone seen Mugglenet's clip of JKR's biography? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Carol: > > Yes, and she thinks that Fred died in 1997. Will someone please tell > her that DH runs from July 1997 through May 1998? But, then, DD's > death date in the archived Wizard of the Month cards is also wrong. > > Carol, who wanted Percy to marry Penelope Clearwater in the Hogwarts > tradition of marrying your school sweetheart (and Angelina was Fred's > date to the Yule Ball, not George's) Potioncat: Yeah, who the heck is Audrey? I thought that maybe George married the Muggle girl who liked his card tricks. I guess he and Angelina came together after Fred died. I wonder why Charlie didn't marry? From Schlobin at aol.com Sun Dec 30 02:49:44 2007 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2007 02:49:44 -0000 Subject: Advent calendars In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" wrote: > > --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "susanmcgee48176" > wrote: > > > > > > > > Carol, still wondering how "Happy holidays" could ever have > (nearly) replaced "Merry Christmas" in a country (the U.S.) in which > 94 percent of the population celebrates Christmas > > > > > > > Well, only 79% of the population is Christian...so..... > > > > Susan > > > Carol responds: > > And yet 94 percent of Americans, fifteen percent of whom don't attend > church or consider themselves as belonging to any Christian > denomination, celebrate Christmas. Can't speak for other countries, > but evidently the trend is only occurring in the U.S. > > Carol, who thinks that Christmas is about love, peace, and joy and > wishes she could share that feeling with everyone > Carol, would you post the source for the statement that 94% of Americans celebrate Christmas? And, I think we can always share feelings of love, peace, and joy by saying just that -- not relegated to Christmas, or Christian holiday greetings.. Susan From gav_fiji at yahoo.com Sun Dec 30 02:50:04 2007 From: gav_fiji at yahoo.com (Goddlefrood) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2007 02:50:04 -0000 Subject: anyone seen Mugglenet's clip of JKR's biography? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Potioncat: > I wonder why Charlie didn't marry? Goddlefrood: By the time the next interview comes around, no doubt he will have. I'll stick to what's in the books, if at all. From Schlobin at aol.com Sun Dec 30 02:51:32 2007 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2007 02:51:32 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" wrote: > > Susan wrote: > > Debatable that most Christmas traditions were originally pagan? > > When I grew up in the Catholic Church, it was explained specifically > > to me that Catholics were trying to suppress pagan religion and were > > deliberately adopting some of the imagery.... > > > > What do you think ISN'T pagan about Christmas? The birth of the son > > of god? The tree? The Yule log? > > > > Susan > > > Carol responds: > What's not pagan about Christmas is, for example, the Nativity story > (though there are pagan analogues) and the Three Wise Men (originally > associated with Epiphany). But, of course, mistletoe and holly, Yule > logs, Christmas trees, etc., have pagan origins. Which makes me wonder > why pagans don't simply embrace Christmas as a pagan holiday, another > name for Yule, and if not actually wishing others a merry Christmas, > at least accept the greeting in the spirit of peace, love, and joy in > which it's intended. > > Carol, who always writes "Merry Christmas and Happy New Year" in her > Christmas cards > Why don't Christians simply embrace Yule as a pagan holiday, and wish everyone a blessed Yule? Why insist on imposing your religion and your version of the holidays on everyone? Susan From Schlobin at aol.com Sun Dec 30 02:57:52 2007 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2007 02:57:52 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > that is, the Christmas season. > > Question for Alla: I thought that Rosh Hahanah was the day of > Atonement. Is it proper to wish someone joy on that day? It seems > rather like wishing someone "Happy Lent" or "Happy Good Friday." (Not > that I would take offense at such a greeting. I would just consider it > odd.) > No, Rosh Hashanah is the Jewish New Year, so you would wish someone happy new year or L'Shanah Tovah (li-SHAH-nuh TOH-vuh; li-shah-NAH toh- VAH) ..Yom Kippur is the Day of Atonement - the appropriate greeting is "may you have an easy fast." Susan From Schlobin at aol.com Sun Dec 30 02:58:55 2007 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2007 02:58:55 -0000 Subject: anyone seen Mugglenet's clip of JKR's biography? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > I wonder why Charlie didn't marry? > JKR says he's not gay (btw), but was more interested in dragons than women or a family. Susan From zanooda2 at yahoo.com Sun Dec 30 03:01:48 2007 From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2007 03:01:48 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" wrote: > Question for Alla: I thought that Rosh Hahanah was the day of > Atonement. Is it proper to wish someone joy on that day? It seems > rather like wishing someone "Happy Lent" or "Happy Good Friday." You know, Carol, Rosh ha-Shana is not the day of atonement, but it is (in addition to being just the beginning of a new year) something like a judgement day. This day God decides who lives and who dies in the new year. However, this day your fate is not sealed yet, and you have ten days to repent and change your life (if you are a sinner and have a reason to fear the worst from God :-) - ten days until Yom Kippur (Yom ha-Kippurim), Day of Atonement, comes. After that, there is no way of changing your fate ;-(. And yes, this day people wish to each other "Shana tova u-matuka" - "good and sweet year". I'm not Jewish, so of course I might not be the right person to explain jewish traditions, but I used to live in Israel (although it was a long time ago), and that's how I remember it :-). zanooda From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Dec 30 03:52:54 2007 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2007 03:52:54 -0000 Subject: Pagan (was What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Carol responds: > I wonder about the reliability of this survey. At any rate, my results > are rather surprisingly similar to yours: > > 1. Liberal Quakers (100%) > 2. Reform Judaism (100%) > 3. Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (98%) > 4. Neo-Pagan (96%) > 5. Unitarian Universalism (93%) > 6. Bah?'? Faith (92%) > 7. Sikhism (87%) > 8. New Age (85%) > 9. Mahayana Buddhism (80%) > 10. Theravada Buddhism (78%) > 11. New Thought (73%) > 12. Secular Humanism (73%) > 13. Orthodox Quaker (70%) > 14. Orthodox Judaism (67%) > 15. Scientology (65%) > > Carol, wondering if perhaps Protestants and neo-pagans have more in > common than either group thinks > Alla: Hmmm, in what sense you wonder about reliability? I mean, I am not sure of course how reliable it is, since most of those religions I have only very general idea of what they are all about or none at all. But I mean my answers characterized my beliefs very close. Do you mean how they match the actual religions? Tonks: I agree with Carol. And on that note, since it is close to Alla's favorite Holiday... Have a Happy, Happy New Year!! Peace, Tonks_op Alla: Thanks, same to you. >Alla: > > Yom Kippur is day of the atonement, which supposed to come close enough after Rosh Hashanah. > Carol responds: Oops! I should have looked it up. Alla: No problem at all. From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Sun Dec 30 07:51:07 2007 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2007 07:51:07 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "susanmcgee48176" wrote: > Why don't Christians simply embrace Yule as a pagan holiday, and wish > everyone a blessed Yule? > > Why insist on imposing your religion and your version of the holidays > on everyone? > > Susan Geoff: Turning the question round, why don't non-Christians stop trying to change what is, even in its name, a Christian festival? I, as a Christian, do not interfere in the festivals of other faiths; they have their high days and holidays. Certainly in the UK in recent years, there seems to have been a concerted attempt to undermine the high points of the Christian year such as Easter and Christmas although these are foundations of the way in which we live and in which our culture has developed. I believe that if you were to go into several countries which have a culture based on other religions and suggest that you started insisting on wishing people a "Happy Christmas", you would get a far stronger reaction than you do here. You might well fibnd yourself behind bars or worse. From catlady at wicca.net Sun Dec 30 15:30:53 2007 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2007 15:30:53 -0000 Subject: Deathly Hallows sign in Edinburgh???? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" wrote: > > I saw above, I think, a shop, something that looked a bit like > part of the symbol of the Deathly Hallows. > It was a triangle with a cirle in it. No Wand down the > center. What could that have been!!???? Does anyone have a clue??? I think a triangle in a circle is an Alcoholics Anonymous symbol. It seems they put it on the signboards for their clubhouses. I've seen it as a necklace pendant. I can never remember what it's supposed to mean in AA, except it is not Alpha and Omega. From s_ings at yahoo.com Sun Dec 30 15:32:28 2007 From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2007 10:32:28 -0500 (EST) Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: OotP Standee! Happy X-mas! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <810065.3004.qm@web63412.mail.re1.yahoo.com> : > > > > Sheryll: > > > > I'm so jealous! We had a standee at work for the > DVD > > display and didn't even open it. Pretty much > everyone > > knew I'd take it home, except... we have a new > person > > on staff and he cleaned up the back room. > > > > Yeah, you guessed it. The next time I came to work > > he'd tossed it in the dumpster. *sigh* > > Tonks: > > FIRE HIM!!! What an idiot!! Not a HP fan, for sure. > > Where are those death eaters when you need one!! > Sheryll: Gotta forgive him, he's new. He wasn't there when the special edition box set of DVDs came and didn't see me drooling over it and petting the box. :D He'll learn. Like I say, he's new. He has lots of bad habits we have to break him of. And I have to be nice - he went to grade school with my daughter. You know, when he becomes Assistant Manager in the next few months, will be very weird having someone as my boss that I knew when he was 6! Sheryll, off to have lobster for lunch and sleep before work Join the fun at Convention Alley 2008 Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! http://www.flickr.com/gift/ From HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com Sun Dec 30 16:43:30 2007 From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com (HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com) Date: 30 Dec 2007 16:43:30 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 12/30/2007, 11:00 am Message-ID: <1199033010.15.80908.m48@yahoogroups.com> Reminder from: HPFGU-OTChatter Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/cal Weekly Chat Sunday December 30, 2007 11:00 am - 12:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2007 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sun Dec 30 18:18:53 2007 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2007 18:18:53 -0000 Subject: Advent calendars In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Susan wrote: > Carol, would you post the source for the statement that 94% of Americans celebrate Christmas? > > And, I think we can always share feelings of love, peace, and joy by > saying just that -- not relegated to Christmas, or Christian holiday > greetings.. > > Susan > Carol: Oops. I misremembered. It's actually 96%. The original site on which I found the statistic was not exactly objective: It was selling "It's okay to wish me a Merry Christmas" buttons. (I wouldn't mind buying one if they're still available next year.) The URL for that site is http://www.wmamc.com/charterchurches/index.html Meanwhile, a Google search for "percent of Americans celebrate Christmas" (in quotes for exact phrase) gave me the following results: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=36071 96% http://media.www.chicagoflame.com/media/storage/paper519/news/2007/12/10/Opinions/Where.Have.The.Jolly.Ho.Ho.Hos.Gone-3140972.shtml 96% http://www.bpnews.net/bpcolumn.asp?ID=2082 95% http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=36071 96% http://www.saychristmas.org/rights/default.aspx?cid=3549 95% http://www.citizenlink.org/CLtopstories/A000003323.cfm 95% There are many others, all of which seem to be citing the same 2005 poll by Fox News/Opinion Dynamics. Here's a quote from the original article, which can be found at http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,177355,00.htm : "Virtually all Americans ? 95 percent ? say they celebrate Christmas, 4 percent celebrate Hanukkah and 3 percent Kwanzaa. "A 57 percent majority considers Christmas a religious holiday, 14 percent see it as a cultural holiday and 27 percent see it as both. Americans consider a Christmas tree a cultural symbol (69 percent) rather than a religious one (14 percent)." And here's a link to the poll itself: http://www.foxnews.com/projects/pdf/poll_religion.pdf Carol, who thinks that Christmas is both a secular and a religious holicay and does believe that there's a war on Christmas, sad to say From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sun Dec 30 18:19:52 2007 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2007 18:19:52 -0000 Subject: "holicay?" Message-ID: Erm, make that "holiday." Carol, who's got to stop hitting the Send button too soon From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sun Dec 30 18:26:53 2007 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2007 18:26:53 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Susan: > Why don't Christians simply embrace Yule as a pagan holiday, and wish everyone a blessed Yule? > > Why insist on imposing your religion and your version of the holidays on everyone? > Carol: I'm not opposing my religion on anyone. I'm not sure I have one, or what exactly it is. It's *Christmas* I believe in, with all the joy and beauty associated with that season and its traditions. I'll take no offense if you wish me a Blessed Yule and intend none if I wish you and yours and all the world a Merry Christmas. And if someone wishes me, say, Happy Kwanzaa, not that that's likely to happen, I'll smile and say "Same to you," knowing that the intention of the speaker is to wish me happiness. Carol, who loves the blend of pagan and Christian traditions that is Christmas but hates generic anything, whether it's "holiday" for Christmas, "event" for "sale," or "vehicle" for "car" From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sun Dec 30 18:33:16 2007 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2007 18:33:16 -0000 Subject: anyone seen Mugglenet's clip of JKR's biography? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Someone (uncredited in the quoted post) wrote: > > I wonder why Charlie didn't marry? > > Susan responded: > JKR says he's not gay (btw), but was more interested in dragons than women or a family. > Carol adds: I didn't see or hear that comment (haven't watched the video) but I figured as much. Remember the book title, "Men Who Love Dragons Too Much," or something like that, in GoF? I'm sure she had Charlie in mind when she invented that title. Marrying a man who worked with dragons would be (IMO) as scary and nervewracking as marrying a police officer (of either sex). You'd be afraid that he'd come home from work seriously injured or wouldn't come home at all. And he'd probably be away from home at night as often as not (the scene with the sedated dragons in GoF takes place at night). Carol, who likes Charlie and would have enjoyed seeing more of him in the books From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sun Dec 30 18:39:00 2007 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2007 18:39:00 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Carol brilliantly wrote: > > > Question for Alla: I thought that Rosh Hashanah was the day of Atonement. Is it proper to wish someone joy on that day? It seems rather like wishing someone "Happy Lent" or "Happy Good Friday." > zanooda responded: > You know, Carol, Rosh ha-Shana is not the day of atonement, but it is (in addition to being just the beginning of a new year) something like a judgement day. This day God decides who lives and who dies in the new year. However, this day your fate is not sealed yet, and you have ten days to repent and change your life (if you are a sinner and have a reason to fear the worst from God :-) - ten days until Yom Kippur (Yom ha-Kippurim), Day of Atonement, comes. After that, there is no way of changing your fate ;-(. And yes, this day people wish to each other "Shana tova u-matuka" - "good and sweet year". I'm not Jewish, so of course I might not be the right person to explain jewish traditions, but I used to live in Israel (although it was a long time ago), and that's how I remember it :-). Carol again: Thanks to everyone who corrected me and apologies for the erm, senior moment. (Hate the term *and* the fact that I'm more forgetful than I used to be.) I did already know that Yom Kippur was the Day of Atonement and Rosh Hashanah was the Jewish New Year. It just slipped my mind for a moment. Should have refreshed my memory before posting. Carol, thanking zanooda for the additional information, which I didn't know and found interesting From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sun Dec 30 18:49:20 2007 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2007 18:49:20 -0000 Subject: Pagan (was What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > > > Carol responds: > > I wonder about the reliability of this survey. At any rate, my > results > > are rather surprisingly similar to yours: > > > > 1. Liberal Quakers (100%) > > 2. Reform Judaism (100%) > > 3. Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (98%) > > 4. Neo-Pagan (96%) > > 5. Unitarian Universalism (93%) > > 6. Bah?'? Faith (92%) > > 7. Sikhism (87%) > > 8. New Age (85%) > > 9. Mahayana Buddhism (80%) > > 10. Theravada Buddhism (78%) > > 11. New Thought (73%) > > 12. Secular Humanism (73%) > > 13. Orthodox Quaker (70%) > > 14. Orthodox Judaism (67%) > > 15. Scientology (65%) > > > > Carol, wondering if perhaps Protestants and neo-pagans have more in common than either group thinks > > > > > Alla: > > Hmmm, in what sense you wonder about reliability? I mean, I am not > sure of course how reliable it is, since most of those religions I > have only very general idea of what they are all about or none at > all. > > But I mean my answers characterized my beliefs very close. Do you > mean how they match the actual religions? Carol responds: I meant that it was odd that you and I, who seem to have such different worldviews, should have such similar results, and it's also odd that I should be 100 % in agreement with both Reform Judaism and liberal Quakers (not particular religions, to my knowledge) and 96% in agreement with Neo-Paganism, which is supposedly so opposed to mainline to liberal Protestantism (with which the results show I agree 96%). So, yes. I suppose I mean that I'm not sure how closely the results mirror the actual beliefs of people actively and knowingly practicing the listed religions. 85% in agreement with New Age? That's news to me! Carol, wondering how much depended on how we weighed the importance of the answers (low, medium, or high) and sure that she would get rather different results if she took the survey on a different day From Schlobin at aol.com Sun Dec 30 18:51:42 2007 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2007 18:51:42 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > I believe that if you were to go into several countries which have a > culture based on other religions and suggest that you started insisting > on wishing people a "Happy Christmas", you would get a far stronger > reaction than you do here. You might well fibnd yourself behind bars > or worse. > Geoff, what's your point here? That there are countries that are even worse than mine (U.S.) about religious intolerance and ethnocentrism? Susan From Schlobin at aol.com Sun Dec 30 18:56:14 2007 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2007 18:56:14 -0000 Subject: Advent calendars In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" wrote: > > Susan wrote: > > Carol, would you post the source for the statement that 94% of > Americans celebrate Christmas? > > > > And, I think we can always share feelings of love, peace, and joy by > > saying just that -- not relegated to Christmas, or Christian holiday > > greetings.. > > > > Susan > > > Carol: > > Oops. I misremembered. It's actually 96%. The original site on which I > found the statistic was not exactly objective: It was selling "It's > okay to wish me a Merry Christmas" buttons. (I wouldn't mind buying > one if they're still available next year.) The URL for that site is > http://www.wmamc.com/charterchurches/index.html > > Meanwhile, a Google search for "percent of Americans celebrate > Christmas" (in quotes for exact phrase) gave me the following results: > > http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=36071 > 96% > > http://media.www.chicagoflame.com/media/storage/paper519/news/2007/12/ 10/Opinions/Where.Have.The.Jolly.Ho.Ho.Hos.Gone-3140972.shtml > 96% > > http://www.bpnews.net/bpcolumn.asp?ID=2082 95% > > http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=36071 > 96% > > http://www.saychristmas.org/rights/default.aspx?cid=3549 95% > > http://www.citizenlink.org/CLtopstories/A000003323.cfm 95% > > There are many others, all of which seem to be citing the same 2005 > poll by Fox News/Opinion Dynamics. Here's a quote from the original > article, which can be found at > http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,177355,00.htm : > > "Virtually all Americans ? 95 percent ? say they celebrate Christmas, > 4 percent celebrate Hanukkah and 3 percent Kwanzaa. > > "A 57 percent majority considers Christmas a religious holiday, 14 > percent see it as a cultural holiday and 27 percent see it as both. > Americans consider a Christmas tree a cultural symbol (69 percent) > rather than a religious one (14 percent)." > > And here's a link to the poll itself: > > http://www.foxnews.com/projects/pdf/poll_religion.pdf > > Carol, who thinks that Christmas is both a secular and a religious > holicay and does believe that there's a war on Christmas, sad to say > Carol, sorry, but Fox news is not exactly an unbiased source.... Who is waging a war on Christmas and why? Is it people like myself who although I celebrate Christmas do not believe it's courteous to wish someone a merry christmas if I don't know if they're celebrating it? And even IF 96% of Americans DO celebrate Christmas, does that mean it's okay to wish everyone a merry christmas because MOST people celebrate it? Personally, I think the war is going the other way. I think it's a war to institutionalize Christmas and other Christian holidays into the laws and public space of the United States - which I, and other founding fathers like Benjamin Franklin, believe is a direct assault on our traditions of separation of church and state, religious freedom and religious tolerance. Let's remember that the original pledge of allegiance did not say "under God" -- this was added in the 1950s in the midst of the McCarthy era.... Susan From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sun Dec 30 18:56:29 2007 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2007 18:56:29 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: susanmcgee wrote: > > > Why don't Christians simply embrace Yule as a pagan holiday, and wish everyone a blessed Yule? > > > > Why insist on imposing your religion and your version of the holidays on everyone? > > Geoff: > Turning the question round, why don't non-Christians stop trying to change what is, even in its name, a Christian festival? > > I, as a Christian, do not interfere in the festivals of other faiths; they have their high days and holidays. Certainly in the UK in recent years, there seems to have been a concerted attempt to undermine the high points of the Christian year such as Easter and Christmas although these are foundations of the way in which we live and in which our culture has developed. > > I believe that if you were to go into several countries which have a culture based on other religions and suggest that you started insisting on wishing people a "Happy Christmas", you would get a far stronger reaction than you do here. You might well find yourself behind bars or worse. > Carol: Right. Remember the teacher arrested and threatened with execution for allowing her students to name a teddy bear Mohammed? Anyone know what happened to her? Carol, who sees fundamentalist Islam as much more oppressive and dangerous than any (modern) form of Christianity (no offense to moderate Muslims intended) From Schlobin at aol.com Sun Dec 30 18:58:36 2007 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2007 18:58:36 -0000 Subject: Pagan (was What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" wrote: > > --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" > wrote: > > > > > Carol responds: > > > I wonder about the reliability of this survey. At any rate, my > > results > > > are rather surprisingly similar to yours: > > > > > > 1. Liberal Quakers (100%) > > > 2. Reform Judaism (100%) > > > 3. Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (98%) > > > 4. Neo-Pagan (96%) > > > 5. Unitarian Universalism (93%) > > > 6. Bah?'? Faith (92%) > > > 7. Sikhism (87%) > > > 8. New Age (85%) > > > 9. Mahayana Buddhism (80%) > > > 10. Theravada Buddhism (78%) > > > 11. New Thought (73%) > > > 12. Secular Humanism (73%) > > > 13. Orthodox Quaker (70%) > > > 14. Orthodox Judaism (67%) > > > 15. Scientology (65%) > > > > > > Carol, wondering if perhaps Protestants and neo-pagans have more > in common than either group thinks > > > > > > > > > Alla: > > > > Hmmm, in what sense you wonder about reliability? I mean, I am not > > sure of course how reliable it is, since most of those religions I > > have only very general idea of what they are all about or none at > > all. > > > > But I mean my answers characterized my beliefs very close. Do you > > mean how they match the actual religions? > > > Carol responds: > > I meant that it was odd that you and I, who seem to have such > different worldviews, should have such similar results, and it's also > odd that I should be 100 % in agreement with both Reform Judaism and > liberal Quakers (not particular religions, to my knowledge) and 96% in > agreement with Neo-Paganism, which is supposedly so opposed to > mainline to liberal Protestantism (with which the results show I agree > 96%). So, yes. I suppose I mean that I'm not sure how closely the > results mirror the actual beliefs of people actively and knowingly > practicing the listed religions. 85% in agreement with New Age? That's > news to me! > > Carol, wondering how much depended on how we weighed the importance of > the answers (low, medium, or high) and sure that she would get rather > different results if she took the survey on a different day > I paid a lot of attention to low, medium and high this time, and got results that were much closer to what I believe than I did the first time...Susan From Schlobin at aol.com Sun Dec 30 18:59:50 2007 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2007 18:59:50 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" wrote: > > susanmcgee wrote: > > > > > Why don't Christians simply embrace Yule as a pagan holiday, and > wish everyone a blessed Yule? > > > > > > Why insist on imposing your religion and your version of the > holidays on everyone? > > > > Geoff: > > Turning the question round, why don't non-Christians stop trying to > change what is, even in its name, a Christian festival? > > > > I, as a Christian, do not interfere in the festivals of other > faiths; they have their high days and holidays. Certainly in the UK in > recent years, there seems to have been a concerted attempt to > undermine the high points of the Christian year such as Easter and > Christmas although these are foundations of the way in which we live > and in which our culture has developed. > > > > I believe that if you were to go into several countries which have a > culture based on other religions and suggest that you started > insisting on wishing people a "Happy Christmas", you would get a far > stronger reaction than you do here. You might well find yourself > behind bars or worse. > > > Carol: > > Right. Remember the teacher arrested and threatened with execution for > allowing her students to name a teddy bear Mohammed? Anyone know what > happened to her? She was released and returned to England > > Carol, who sees fundamentalist Islam as much more oppressive and > dangerous than any (modern) form of Christianity (no offense to > moderate Muslims intended) > I find fundamentalists of ALL religions quite frightening.... Susan From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Sun Dec 30 20:27:18 2007 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2007 20:27:18 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" wrote: > > susanmcgee wrote: > > > > > Why don't Christians simply embrace Yule as a pagan holiday, and > wish everyone a blessed Yule? > > > > > > Why insist on imposing your religion and your version of the > holidays on everyone? > > > > Geoff: > > Turning the question round, why don't non-Christians stop trying to > change what is, even in its name, a Christian festival? > > > > I, as a Christian, do not interfere in the festivals of other > faiths; they have their high days and holidays. Certainly in the UK in > recent years, there seems to have been a concerted attempt to > undermine the high points of the Christian year such as Easter and > Christmas although these are foundations of the way in which we live > and in which our culture has developed. > > > > I believe that if you were to go into several countries which have a > culture based on other religions and suggest that you started > insisting on wishing people a "Happy Christmas", you would get a far > stronger reaction than you do here. You might well find yourself > behind bars or worse. > > > Carol: > > Right. Remember the teacher arrested and threatened with execution for > allowing her students to name a teddy bear Mohammed? Anyone know what > happened to her? > > Carol, who sees fundamentalist Islam as much more oppressive and > dangerous than any (modern) form of Christianity (no offense to > moderate Muslims intended) Geoff: Precisely my point. At my church I subscribe to a UK group called "Open Doors" who support, monitor and report on the 'Persecuted Church'. This is the name we use for churches in those countries where it is dangerous to even mention that you are a Christian believer. Every week, we receive reports of Christians who are ostracised and discriminated against; who are attacked verbally and physically and in a number of cases murdered; there are cases of groups who have been imprisoned on fabricated charges or even without trial - sometimes for years. For example, the goverment of Eritrea has come under criticism for locking Christians in groups into shipping containers and only allowing them out for an hour or so a day. Although many of these incidents are in Muslim countries (and I agree with your proviso above), there are also problem with Buddhist and Hindu governments and also, inevitably, the Chinese. Hence, I like to feel that we can "own" our festivals without folk who are outside Christianity apparently trying to dilute our belief to suit their own taste. My apologies if that seems critical but that is how it often looks from my point of view. From bboyminn at yahoo.com Sun Dec 30 21:14:43 2007 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2007 21:14:43 -0000 Subject: God, Harry Potter, and the Catholic Church Message-ID: Recently a spokesmen for the Vatican endorsed the Harry Potter Series. Guardian Unlimited "Catholic church stands up for Harry Potter" http://film.guardian.co.uk/news/story/0,,888638,00.html "A Vatican spokesman has defended the Harry Potter books and films, saying they are consistent with Christian morals." "The Rev Peter Fleetwood, a member of the Vatican's council for culture, ..." (When)"Asked whether the Harry Potter books fell into the same category (New Age), Mr Fleetwood said, "I don't see any, any problems in the Harry Potter series." He went on to say that the good vs evil message of the books was consistent with Christian morality." Just passing it along. Steve/bboyminn From catlady at wicca.net Sun Dec 30 21:21:31 2007 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2007 21:21:31 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > above), there are also problem with Buddhist and Hindu governments IIRC, it's non-governmental Hindu nationalists who burn Christians alive in their cars (and burn Muslims alive in their homes); the government officials elected by the Hindu nationalists 'merely' refuse to prosecute the murderers. > Hence, I like to feel that we can "own" our festivals without folk > who are outside Christianity apparently trying to dilute our belief It seems to me that there is a contradiction between religionists owning their religion's festival and sharing it with 96% of the population. People who don't believe in Christianity or don't care about Christiantity but none the less wish everyone 'Happy Christmas' and put up decorations of creches and candles and give presents and attend Christmas Eve midnight mass either enjoy it for non-religious reasons or resent being forced to participate in it. It seems to me that both enjoying it for non-religious reasons and resenting it dilute your religious holiday. I don't understand why a Supreme Court ruling that a creche is just as secular a seasonal decoration as a plastic snowman is considered to be keeping Christmas religious. From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Sun Dec 30 22:05:16 2007 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2007 22:05:16 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: > > --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" > wrote: > > > above), there are also problem with Buddhist and Hindu governments > > IIRC, it's non-governmental Hindu nationalists who burn Christians > alive in their cars (and burn Muslims alive in their homes); the > government officials elected by the Hindu nationalists 'merely' refuse > to prosecute the murderers. Geoff: Which, to me, makes them guilty by default. Geoff (earlier): > > Hence, I like to feel that we can "own" our festivals without folk > > who are outside Christianity apparently trying to dilute our belief Catlady: > It seems to me that there is a contradiction between religionists > owning their religion's festival and sharing it with 96% of the > population. People who don't believe in Christianity or don't care > about Christiantity but none the less wish everyone 'Happy Christmas' > and put up decorations of creches and candles and give presents and > attend Christmas Eve midnight mass either enjoy it for non-religious > reasons or resent being forced to participate in it. It seems to me > that both enjoying it for non-religious reasons and resenting it > dilute your religious holiday. I don't understand why a Supreme Court > ruling that a creche is just as secular a seasonal decoration as a > plastic snowman is considered to be keeping Christmas religious. Geoff: I think this harks back to the US versus UK divide I mentioned in message 34657. There is a large proportion of the UK population who nominally claim to be Christian and generally do nothing but who turn out in large numbers for Christmas Eve late night services and Christmas morning services which often do not include Communion - and I'm not speaking of Catholics going to midnight mass who may feel that it is essential for the good of their soul. From sistermagpie at earthlink.net Sun Dec 30 22:21:57 2007 From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2007 22:21:57 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Geoff: > Hence, I like to feel that we can "own" our festivals without folk who are > outside Christianity apparently trying to dilute our belief to suit their own > taste. My apologies if that seems critical but that is how it often looks > from my point of view. Magpie: I'm afraid I still don't get it. Certainly any Christian can "own" Christian as a holiday that's very significant to them in a religious way. Though of course Christmas has a complicated history, I think, like all holidays--there was a time where Christmas was *illegal* in some parts of the US for religious reasons. It was considered abhorrent to God--by one group of Christians, and obviously not others. When it comes to Christmas and other holidays the more secular holiday exists and is important in whatever way it is important to somebody else. If somebody is Christian I would wish them Merry Christmas because I'm genuinely wishing them a good holiday as they celebrate it. But who are you referring to here? Are you making a comment about what I guess would be just called "bad Christians?" Or "weak Christians?" People you don't think practice their faith correctly--like basically an internal disagreement amongst people of the same church? -m From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Dec 30 22:56:32 2007 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2007 22:56:32 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Geoff: Precisely my point. At my church I subscribe to a UK group called "Open Doors" who support, monitor and report on the 'Persecuted Church'. This is the name we use for churches in those countries where it is dangerous to even mention that you are a Christian believer. Every week, we receive reports of Christians who are ostracised and discriminated against; who are attacked verbally and physically and in a number of cases murdered; there are cases of groups who have been imprisoned on fabricated charges or even without trial - sometimes for years. For example, the goverment of Eritrea has come under criticism for locking Christians in groups into shipping containers and only allowing them out for an hour or so a day. Although many of these incidents are in Muslim countries (and I agree with your proviso above), there are also problem with Buddhist and Hindu governments and also, inevitably, the Chinese. Hence, I like to feel that we can "own" our festivals without folk who are outside Christianity apparently trying to dilute our belief to suit their own taste. My apologies if that seems critical but that is how it often looks from my point of view. Alla: Geoff, you are one of the people who post here whom I love and respect very much and it frustrates me enormously that I have no idea what what you just wrote has to do with anything. Christians are being persecuted in some or many countries? Um, sure they are. I think it is HORRIBLE, just as I think that it is horrible that many jews for centuries had been persecuted by many christians for refusing to accept Christianity - tortured, burned, just killed for refusing to accept Jesus in their hearts. Just as I think it is HORRIBLE that pagan parents should even THINK to be afraid of their child taken away from them, because they are not of mainstream religion. People being persecuted for holding religious beliefs is horrible. I think it is a given for most of the people, is it not? But who in this thread suggested that Christmas should be diluted????? I had been saying all along that I want from the person who celebrates Christmas if the person is my close friend to be respectful to my beliefs and not ASSUME that everybody celebrates Christmas. Hence I love the greeting Happy holidays, that's all. Am I asking too much, Geoff? If you think I am, well, I guess there is nothing more to say other than agree to disagree. But I certainly disagree with suggestion that people who posted in the thread suggested try to own Christmas, dilute it, interfere with it celebration, etc. I mean, maybe I missed this post, so link would be appreciated and then I am sorry in advance. Alla From gav_fiji at yahoo.com Sun Dec 30 23:01:22 2007 From: gav_fiji at yahoo.com (Goddlefrood) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2007 23:01:22 -0000 Subject: Long Life and Happiness (Was: Re: Advent calendars) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Susan: > ... which I, and other founding fathers like Benjamin Franklin, > believe is a direct assault on our traditions of separation of > church and state, religious freedom and religious tolerance. Goddlefrood: I'm just wondering exactly how old you are and if you could share the secret to such longevity as yours. I do agree that the encroachment of church onto state is not something that should be encouraged, the power of the church in that regard having been all but eliminated long since in much of the Western world. Here's how the UN greets people at this time of the year: "Please accept with no obligation, implied or implicit, my best wishes for an environmentally conscious, socially responsible, low-stress, non-addictive, gender-neutral celebration of the winter solstice holiday, practiced within the most enjoyable traditions of the religious persuasion of your choice, or secular practices of your choice, with respect for the religious/secular persuasion and/or traditions of others, or their choice not to practice religious or secular traditions at all. I also wish you a fiscally successful, personally fulfilling and medically uncomplicated recognition of the onset of the generally accepted calendar year 2008, but not without due respect for the calendars of choice of other cultures whose contributions to society have helped make this world great. Also, this wish is made without regard to the race, creed, color, age, physical ability, religious faith or sexual preference of the wishee." Goddlefrood From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Dec 30 23:10:32 2007 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2007 23:10:32 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Magpie: If somebody is Christian I would wish them Merry Christmas > because I'm genuinely wishing them a good holiday as they celebrate it. Alla: Yes again. > But who are you referring to here? Are you making a comment about what > I guess would be just called "bad Christians?" Or "weak Christians?" > People you don't think practice their faith correctly--like basically > an internal disagreement amongst people of the same church? > Alla: OOOO, thanks Magpie. Geoff is that what you meant? From Schlobin at aol.com Sun Dec 30 23:55:23 2007 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2007 23:55:23 -0000 Subject: Long Life and Happiness (Was: Re: Advent calendars) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Goddlefrood" wrote: > > > Susan: > > ... which I, and other founding fathers like Benjamin Franklin, > > believe is a direct assault on our traditions of separation of > > church and state, religious freedom and religious tolerance. > > Goddlefrood: > > I'm just wondering exactly how old you are and if you could share > the secret to such longevity as yours. LOL...I'm ancient...should have read which I, and others, including founding fathers > > I do agree that the encroachment of church onto state is not > something that should be encouraged, the power of the church > in that regard having been all but eliminated long since in > much of the Western world. > > Here's how the UN greets people at this time of the year: > > "Please accept with no obligation, implied or implicit, > my best wishes for an environmentally conscious, socially > responsible, low-stress, non-addictive, gender-neutral > celebration of the winter solstice holiday, practiced > within the most enjoyable traditions of the religious > persuasion of your choice, or secular practices of your > choice, with respect for the religious/secular persuasion > and/or traditions of others, or their choice not to practice > religious or secular traditions at all. I also wish you a > fiscally successful, personally fulfilling and medically > uncomplicated recognition of the onset of the generally > accepted calendar year 2008, but not without due respect > for the calendars of choice of other cultures whose > contributions to society have helped make this world > great. Also, this wish is made without regard to the > race, creed, color, age, physical ability, religious > faith or sexual preference of the wishee." > > Goddlefrood > Goddlefrood, are you sure that that is a UN thing? I think it's an internet spoof? Yes? Susan From Schlobin at aol.com Mon Dec 31 00:00:59 2007 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 00:00:59 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > > > Magpie: > > If somebody is Christian I would wish them Merry Christmas > > because I'm genuinely wishing them a good holiday as they celebrate > it. > > Alla: > > Yes again. > > > > But who are you referring to here? Are you making a comment about > what > > I guess would be just called "bad Christians?" Or "weak Christians?" > > People you don't think practice their faith correctly--like > basically > > an internal disagreement amongst people of the same church? > > > > Alla: > > OOOO, thanks Magpie. Geoff is that what you meant? > Yes, I think that the whole purpose of separation of church and state (as envisoned by the founding fathers)...is that each person should have the opportunity to celebrate their religion undiluted in any way that they wish (as long as it's not harming others). How does celebrating an undiluted holiday get mixed up with the "right" to have Christmas decorations on public property, or the "right" to wish those who do not celebrate it "Merry Christmas?" My feeling is that if one holiday is celebrated, then all should have the right to celebrate. I understand that no one on THIS list would EVER object should someone post a pentacle next to the crucifix in town hall, but I imagine OTHERS might object...take a look at how long it took pagans/wiccans to have the right to put a pentacle on a dead soldier's grave stone... Susan From gav_fiji at yahoo.com Mon Dec 31 00:08:49 2007 From: gav_fiji at yahoo.com (Goddlefrood) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 00:08:49 -0000 Subject: Long Life and Happiness (Was: Re: Advent calendars) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > Goddlefrood: > > "Please accept with no obligation, implied or implicit, > > my best wishes for an environmentally conscious, socially > > responsible, low-stress, non-addictive, gender-neutral > > celebration of the winter solstice holiday, practiced > > within the most enjoyable traditions of the religious > > persuasion of your choice, or secular practices of your > > choice, with respect for the religious/secular persuasion > > and/or traditions of others, or their choice not to practice > > religious or secular traditions at all. I also wish you a > > fiscally successful, personally fulfilling and medically > > uncomplicated recognition of the onset of the generally > > accepted calendar year 2008, but not without due respect > > for the calendars of choice of other cultures whose > > contributions to society have helped make this world > > great. Also, this wish is made without regard to the > > race, creed, color, age, physical ability, religious > > faith or sexual preference of the wishee." > Susan: > Goddlefrood, are you sure that that is a UN thing? I think it's > an internet spoof? Yes? Goddlefrood: It was sent to me from a UN client of mine, he purports to be the author. Whether it's officially sanctioned is another matter ... From Schlobin at aol.com Mon Dec 31 00:30:13 2007 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 00:30:13 -0000 Subject: Long Life and Happiness (Was: Re: Advent calendars) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Goddlefrood" wrote: > > > > Goddlefrood: > > > "Please accept with no obligation, implied or implicit, > > > my best wishes for an environmentally conscious, socially > > > responsible, low-stress, non-addictive, gender-neutral > > > celebration of the winter solstice holiday, practiced > > > within the most enjoyable traditions of the religious > > > persuasion of your choice, or secular practices of your > > > choice, with respect for the religious/secular persuasion > > > and/or traditions of others, or their choice not to practice > > > religious or secular traditions at all. I also wish you a > > > fiscally successful, personally fulfilling and medically > > > uncomplicated recognition of the onset of the generally > > > accepted calendar year 2008, but not without due respect > > > for the calendars of choice of other cultures whose > > > contributions to society have helped make this world > > > great. Also, this wish is made without regard to the > > > race, creed, color, age, physical ability, religious > > > faith or sexual preference of the wishee." > > > Susan: > > Goddlefrood, are you sure that that is a UN thing? I think it's > > an internet spoof? Yes? > > Goddlefrood: > > It was sent to me from a UN client of mine, he purports to be the > author. Whether it's officially sanctioned is another matter ... > It's been around the internet for a long time -- your client is the author? How interesting....Susan From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 31 00:49:17 2007 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 00:49:17 -0000 Subject: Long Life and Happiness (Was: Re: Advent calendars) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Susan: > > ... which I, and other founding fathers like Benjamin Franklin, believe is a direct assault on our traditions of separation of church and state, religious freedom and religious tolerance. > > Goddlefrood: > > I'm just wondering exactly how old you are and if you could share > the secret to such longevity as yours. > > I do agree that the encroachment of church onto state is not > something that should be encouraged, the power of the church > in that regard having been all but eliminated long since in > much of the Western world. > > Here's how the UN greets people at this time of the year: > > "Please accept with no obligation, implied or implicit, > my best wishes for an environmentally conscious, socially > responsible, low-stress, non-addictive, gender-neutral > celebration of the winter solstice holiday, practiced > within the most enjoyable traditions of the religious > persuasion of your choice, or secular practices of your > choice, with respect for the religious/secular persuasion > and/or traditions of others, or their choice not to practice > religious or secular traditions at all. I also wish you a > fiscally successful, personally fulfilling and medically > uncomplicated recognition of the onset of the generally > accepted calendar year 2008, but not without due respect > for the calendars of choice of other cultures whose > contributions to society have helped make this world > great. Also, this wish is made without regard to the > race, creed, color, age, physical ability, religious > faith or sexual preference of the wishee." > Carol responds: LOL and Happy Sixth Day of Christmas, Goddlefrood. I'm sure that Susan didn't mean to call herself a Founding Father, any more than I meant to type "dontradict" on the main list. Carol, hoping that Susan is laughing, too From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 31 01:07:45 2007 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 01:07:45 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Susan: > Yes, I think that the whole purpose of separation of church and > state (as envisoned by the founding fathers)...is that each person > should have the opportunity to celebrate their religion undiluted in > any way that they wish (as long as it's not harming others). > > How does celebrating an undiluted holiday get mixed up with > the "right" to have Christmas decorations on public property, or > the "right" to wish those who do not celebrate it "Merry Christmas?" > > My feeling is that if one holiday is celebrated, then all should have > the right to celebrate. I understand that no one on THIS list would > EVER object should someone post a pentacle next to the crucifix in > town hall, but I imagine OTHERS might object...take a look at how > long it took pagans/wiccans to have the right to put a pentacle on a > dead soldier's grave stone... Carol responds: The problem with "Happy Holidays" is that it really refers to Christmas, the holiday that most Americans celebrate but are suddenly afraid to name. Christmas trees have become holiday trees; Christmas stamps have become holiday stamps (even though Hanukkah and other holidays have their own stamps); Christmas cards have become holiday cards. It started with the supposed separation of church and state preventing kids from singing true Christmas carols (but not "Jingle Bells" or "Santa Claus is Coming to Town") in schools. Now some schools are afraid to put up Christmas trees for fear of offending the four to six percent of children who don't celebrate Christmas. I don't know anything about cemeteries objecting to pentacles (could someone possibly be mistaking them for pentagrams and mistakenly associating Wicca with Satanism?), but it's the same sort of thing. Your right to your religious symbols is being threatened, but so is the Christian majority's right to put up Nativity scenes, which have long been banned in public places (since the 1970s, I think?), but now are vandalized if they appear on someone's lawn. Christmas is a beautiful holiday which can be celebrated in either religious or secular ways, and (IMO) it's being destroyed by well-meaning but mistaken people who think it imposes on *their* religious freedom, or their right to atheism, or whatever. The opposite is true. The majority, oddly, are the victims here, and they're cooperating in their own oppression, just as many women cooperated in their own oppression during the Victorian era. Maybe you could wear a badge that says, "I'm Wiccan. Don't wish me Merry Christmas." I'm sure most people would respect that. Meanwhile, I'm sorely tempted to buy an "It's okay to wish me Merry Christmas badge" for next year and to boycott any stores whose employees are ordered to wish me "Happy Holidays." It really annoys the heck out of me, especially since it's primarily a marketing ploy (one that's likely to backfire on the merchants, the majority of whose customers celebrate Christmas). Carol, remembering that Christians were persecuted during the Roman era, which is why the Catholics have so many martyrs as saints From Schlobin at aol.com Mon Dec 31 01:35:37 2007 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 01:35:37 -0000 Subject: Long Life and Happiness (Was: Re: Advent calendars) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > Carol, hoping that Susan is laughing, too > yes indeed...LOL From Schlobin at aol.com Mon Dec 31 01:40:45 2007 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 01:40:45 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > I don't know anything about cemeteries objecting to pentacles (could > someone possibly be mistaking them for pentagrams and mistakenly > associating Wicca with Satanism?), Excerpt...it was the U.S. government that would not allow Wiccans to have a pentacle put on their grave stones.....took 10 years and a lawsuit... IOWA COUNTY, Wis. -- In Iowa County, a small resting place for U.S. soldiers has taken on national significance following a first-of-its- kind Memorial Day dedication. In April,2007, local members of the Wiccan religion won a decade-long fight to get their symbol, the pentacle, included on veteran grave markers with many other religious symbols, WISC-TV reported. Circle Sanctuary, a Wiccan group based in Barneveld, sued the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs to add the pentacle to the list in 2005, and won that battle just a month ago. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 31 01:54:10 2007 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 01:54:10 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Carol responds: The problem with "Happy Holidays" is that it really refers to Christmas, the holiday that most Americans celebrate but are suddenly afraid to name. Alla: Where is the proof that americans are afraid to name it? I see quite the contrary so far. If respecting other people holidays is being equaled to being afraid to name Christmas? Carol: Christmas trees have become holiday trees; Christmas stamps have become holiday stamps (even though Hanukkah and other holidays have their own stamps); Christmas cards have become holiday cards. It started with the supposed separation of church and state preventing kids from singing true Christmas carols (but not "Jingle Bells" or "Santa Claus is Coming to Town") in schools. Now some schools are afraid to put up Christmas trees for fear of offending the four to six percent of children who don't celebrate Christmas. Alla: Supposed separation of church and state? But in any event I do not know what are you talking about. Super intendent in my building and in many buildings in NY put up Christmas tree, Chanukia, put up Merry Christmas, Happy New year greetings, etc. What fear? What opression of Christians? As I said I am very well aware of oppression of christians in other countries, but in the USA? I would like to see some links. Carol: I don't know anything about cemeteries objecting to pentacles (could someone possibly be mistaking them for pentagrams and mistakenly associating Wicca with Satanism?), but it's the same sort of thing. Your right to your religious symbols is being threatened, but so is the Christian majority's right to put up Nativity scenes, which have long been banned in public places (since the 1970s, I think?), but now are vandalized if they appear on someone's lawn. Alla: Links please about vandalizing nativity scenes? I mean, I am sure it could have happened somewhere sometimes even in the US, but are you saying it is happening on the regular basis? I mean I can provide links about swasticas on jewish cemeteries as well, but by no means I can say that this is a regular occasion. I went to see the lights yesterday with a friend. People put up BEATIFUL christmas decorations on the blocks of streets of Brooklyn. They are EVERYWHERE and some of them are quite famous here. Oppression of Christmas? What oppresion of Christmas? I am again only talking about USA. Alla From drednort at alphalink.com.au Mon Dec 31 02:08:14 2007 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 13:08:14 +1100 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: "susanmcgee48176" > Yes, I think that the whole purpose of separation of church and > state (as envisoned by the founding fathers)...is that each person > should have the opportunity to celebrate their religion undiluted in > any way that they wish (as long as it's not harming others). As long time readers of this list will know, I am somewhat obsessively interested in matters concerning education policy, both in my own country of Australia, and overseas. Something that has occasionally come up in my studies of these subjects relates directly to some of the matters under discussion here. The following quote should be familiar to most Americans, and to a lot of other people as well: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" The first part of the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States. This next quote is less likely to be familiar to many people: "The Commonwealth shall not make any law for establishing any religion, or for imposing any religious observance, or for prohibiting the free exercise of any religion" That is the first part of Section 116 of the Constitution of the Commonwealth of Australia. It's pretty similar - and deliberately so. Because Australia's 'founding fathers' looked at a number of different governmental systems in designing the one they wanted for this country - the British system was the primary model, but the US model was the second greatest influence, and this is one of the parts our founding fathers really thought America had got right, and so they decided to copy it. The language got changed a little, but the basic idea was the same. The thing is, though, in the 107 years (tomorrow) since the Australian Constitution became active, both the United States' First Amendment, and Australia's Section 116 have been interpreted somewhat differently by the highest courts in the respective lands. Similar language, deliberately copied, has nonetheless produced a somewhat different idea of what applies and does not apply with regards to these provisions. I think that is something that sometimes some people lose sight of. Whatever was intended originally, these things are interpreted - and they can be interpreted in different ways. I don't the Australian High Court is any smarter than the United States Supreme Court, or vice versa. But they've looked at these issues and come to somewhat different conclusions. Just worth thinking about, whenever you consider these issues, I think. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From sistermagpie at earthlink.net Mon Dec 31 02:17:45 2007 From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 02:17:45 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Carol responds: > > The problem with "Happy Holidays" is that it really refers to > Christmas, the holiday that most Americans celebrate but are suddenly > afraid to name. > > > Alla: > > Where is the proof that americans are afraid to name it? I see quite > the contrary so far. If respecting other people holidays is being > equaled to being afraid to name Christmas? Magpie: Yes, I don't see it as having anything to do with being afraid to name Christmas--just to not name it when it's not appropriate. Happy Holidays doesn't only refer to Christmas. It's possible, I suppose, that it could feel that way. Tonks, for instance, mentioned growing up in a world that seemed exclusively Christian and so everybody figured that's all anybody celebrated and even felt comfortable saying things like "everyone's morals come from Christianity." Perhaps if you're suddenly expected to acknowledge other people (and that some of them, just like some Christians, might even be bitchy about it) might feel somehow disturbing. But feeling that way doesn't necessarily mean you ought to feel that way. > Carol: > Christmas trees have become holiday trees; Christmas > stamps have become holiday stamps (even though Hanukkah and other > holidays have their own stamps); Christmas cards have become holiday > cards. It started with the supposed separation of church and state > preventing kids from singing true Christmas carols (but not "Jingle > Bells" or "Santa Claus is Coming to Town") in schools. Now some > schools are afraid to put up Christmas trees for fear of offending > the > four to six percent of children who don't celebrate Christmas. > > Alla: > > Supposed separation of church and state? Magpie: Yes, I don't think anybody's afraid to name the holiday. It's not that you're not ever supposed to name Christmas, it's that you don't want to priviledge it above something else. Compromises are not going to please everyone. It's not always wrong to say Christmas. But I still think it's significant that often people are so used to Christianity that being neutral becomes the same thing as being insulted--when of course that's what other people often learn to expect. Just as in countries where Christians are persecuted I'm sure Christians wouldn't expect to be greeted with Merry Christmas by anyone but other Christians. (I'm tempted to go off on insisting on "under God" in the Pledge...) > Carol: > I don't know anything about cemeteries objecting to pentacles (could > someone possibly be mistaking them for pentagrams and mistakenly > associating Wicca with Satanism?), but it's the same sort of thing. > Your right to your religious symbols is being threatened, but so is > the Christian majority's right to put up Nativity scenes, which have > long been banned in public places (since the 1970s, I think?), but > now > are vandalized if they appear on someone's lawn. > > > Alla: > > Links please about vandalizing nativity scenes? I mean, I am sure it > could have happened somewhere sometimes even in the US, but are you > saying it is happening on the regular basis? Magpie: You can put a Nativity scene up in public--on your lawn where people can see it or in front of a church as far as I know. If somebody vandalizes it they're the one's breaking the law. There are, unfortunately, probably examples of every kind of decoration being vandalized. The vandalizing of a Navitiy scene doesn't necessarily have anything to do with religious persecution. In my home town somebody vandalized somebody's decorations, just tearing all the lights down. Totally shitty thing to do, but not religiously motivated, I don't think. Still if it is religiously motivated it's wrong, but I haven't heard of that happening so often. -m From drednort at alphalink.com.au Mon Dec 31 02:22:35 2007 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 13:22:35 +1100 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <57C2870CA0F348558E0EC063D97537A4@ShaunPC> Just a small comment to make here. Early last week, just before Christmas, Australia's new Prime Minister, Kevin Rudd, made a surprise visit to Afghanistan to visit Australia's troops in that country, and with the Afghan government. As part of that visit, a joint press conference was held between Prime Minister Rudd and President Hamid Karzai of Afghanistan. Not surprisingly, a significant number of Australian journalists were present. President Karzai ended his part of the press conference with the following statement: "It's Christmas time and I would send my Christmas greetings to all those countries that are serving Afghanistan with their precious lives of their sons and daughters contributing to Afghanistan's stability and peace, and with their taxpayers' money. We are very very grateful and Merry Christmas to all of you and especially to the Australian people." I was somewhat surprised at the amount of goodwill that generated here. Just a few small words. A gesture of respectful acknowledgement of the beliefs of others, whether he shares them or not. Personally, I hope most people would feel able to do that - to offer respect for the beliefs of others by offering seasons greetings of whatever sort are applicable. But it works both ways, in my view. If respect is genuine, we should also be prepared to accept seasons greetings - whether we observe that season or not - in the spirit in which they are offered. The only religion I've ever been a part of is Roman Catholicism. If somebody offered me 'Bright Blessings of Samhain', I'd have to dredge up general knowledge to realise what precisely they were talking about - but it'd be instantly clear it was intended as a gesture of good will. And I find it hard to imagine how anyone could take it any other way. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From sistermagpie at earthlink.net Mon Dec 31 02:32:08 2007 From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 02:32:08 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: <57C2870CA0F348558E0EC063D97537A4@ShaunPC> Message-ID: Shaun: > Personally, I hope most people would feel able to do that - to offer respect > for the beliefs of others by offering seasons greetings of whatever sort are > applicable. > > But it works both ways, in my view. If respect is genuine, we should also be > prepared to accept seasons greetings - whether we observe that season or > not - in the spirit in which they are offered. Magpie: Absolutely--the spirit in which they are offered are key. If somebody is thoughtfully and genuinely wishing you a holiday because they think it's a nice thing to do, it should be taken that way. If you want to also mention for the future that you don't actually celebrate Christmas that can be fine too and done without being rude. Or else you might just accept the greeting and not feel the need to do that. Similarly "Happy Holidays" offered as a genuine greeting that's supposed to be inclusive in case the person doesn't celebrate Christian should be taken in the proper spirit too. Conversely, if part of the spirit of "merry Christmas" is that nobody should ever have to think about anything but the "real" holiday, or the "real" American/Australian/religious/English holiday or whatever, of if the spirit is "I'm oppressed and I'm fighting back by aggressively wishing merry Christmas no matter what you celebrate"...then that should be taken in the proper spirit too. Which is that the person is kind of a jerk. -m From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 31 02:59:02 2007 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 02:59:02 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Magpie: > Absolutely--the spirit in which they are offered are key. If somebody > is thoughtfully and genuinely wishing you a holiday because they > think it's a nice thing to do, it should be taken that way. If you > want to also mention for the future that you don't actually celebrate > Christmas that can be fine too and done without being rude. Or else > you might just accept the greeting and not feel the need to do that. > Similarly "Happy Holidays" offered as a genuine greeting that's > supposed to be inclusive in case the person doesn't celebrate > Christian should be taken in the proper spirit too. Alla: I would NEVER tell a stranger that I do not celebrate Christmas. I would smile and thank him. Even if it is not wished in proper spirit, I would assume one. I ask for more from friends only. Now I myself do not wish strangers Merry Christmas unless I know for sure they celebrate it, but I would never demand from them the same. Magpie: > Conversely, if part of the spirit of "merry Christmas" is that nobody > should ever have to think about anything but the "real" holiday, or > the "real" American/Australian/religious/English holiday or whatever, > of if the spirit is "I'm oppressed and I'm fighting back by > aggressively wishing merry Christmas no matter what you > celebrate"...then that should be taken in the proper spirit too. > Which is that the person is kind of a jerk. Alla: YES. Magpie: You can put a Nativity scene up in public--on your lawn where people can see it or in front of a church as far as I know. If somebody vandalizes it they're the one's breaking the law. There are, unfortunately, probably examples of every kind of decoration being vandalized. The vandalizing of a Nativity scene doesn't necessarily have anything to do with religious persecution. In my home town somebody vandalized somebody's decorations, just tearing all the lights down. Totally shitty thing to do, but not religiously motivated, I don't think. Still if it is religiously motivated it's wrong, but I haven't heard of that happening so often. Alla: Well, sure there are examples, what I am disputing is the regularity of this happening. I would even assume that there are bastards who do that for religious reasons, but as I said, I doubt that this is happening oh so very often in the US to qualify as oppression AND as you said they are the ones who breaking the law there. From tonks_op at yahoo.com Mon Dec 31 03:43:04 2007 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 03:43:04 -0000 Subject: Pagan (was What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Carol, wondering how much depended on how we weighed the importance of > the answers (low, medium, or high) and sure that she would get rather > different results if she took the survey on a different day > Tonks: I think it does matter how high you rate the response. And I also think that the people making up the test are not as knowledgeable about the sudtles of religious thought. Some of the responses are a hard choice between two extremes when you might have an in-between view. I think that is were the rating of your answer comes in. From tonks_op at yahoo.com Mon Dec 31 04:30:49 2007 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 04:30:49 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > Geoff: > > > Hence, I like to feel that we can "own" our festivals without folk who are outside Christianity apparently trying to dilute our belief to suit their own taste. My apologies if that seems critical but that is how it often looks from my point of view. > > Magpie: > I'm afraid I still don't get it. Certainly any Christian can "own" > Christian as a holiday that's very significant to them in a religious way. Snip > But who are you referring to here? Are you making a comment about what I guess would be just called "bad Christians?" Or "weak Christians?" People you don't think practice their faith correctly-- like basically an internal disagreement amongst people of the same church? Tonks: I think that Geoff is saying what many Christians in the U.S. feel and that is that pe ople who are not Christian and hostile to Christianity are trying to remove any signs of Christianity from the country. It is more than just a separation of Church and State. Why this is happing I am not sure. Perhaps it is a backlash against the Fundlmentalist who push their religion down everyone throat and tell people they are all sinners going to hell. I can see why someone might take offence to Christianity if that is the only exposure they have. I take offence to that type of holier than thou behavior myself and I am a Christian. This ???war on Christmas??? would be the same as some group in a Muslim country trying to eradicate the Muslim religion from that country bit by bit. (of course, it would be much harder there since there is no seperation of church and state.) I would imagine it might be somewhat like what must have happened in the Russian countries where Alla grew up, years before she was born. It is the way to change a culture into one with no religion, and it is done one piece at a time, little by little and be sure you get to the children first. This is why Christians are so upset about it. We can see where this is leading. When a company that I do business with in the U.S. and the U.K. both send me the same e-greeting card after 5:00pm on Dec. 24th and the one from the U.S. says "Happy Holliday" and the one from the U.K. says "Merry Christmas", that says to me that the corportations in the U.S. are going overboard on political correctness. Just what "holiday" are they talking about? CHRISTMAS! Damn it... call it what it IS. Tonks_op From Schlobin at aol.com Mon Dec 31 05:10:46 2007 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 05:10:46 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > When a company that I do business with in the U.S. and the U.K. both > send me the same e-greeting card after 5:00pm on Dec. 24th and the > one from the U.S. says "Happy Holliday" and the one from the U.K. > says "Merry Christmas", that says to me that the corportations in > the U.S. are going overboard on political correctness. Just > what "holiday" are they talking about? CHRISTMAS! Damn it... call it > what it IS. > > Tonks_op > Except that Christmas is NOT the only holiday celebrated in December in the United States. There is Chanukah and the Winter Solstice/Yule. That's the whole point! When you say, the Holiday is Christmas..you are making the people (I don't buy the 96% stat from Fox News, but whatever) who do NOT celebrate Christmas invisible. You are saying that you are NOT wishing them joy of THEIR holiday. ONLY Christmas will be celebrated, DAMN IT! The rest don't matter, because they are in a minority. I thought that the American tradition was protecting the rights of the minority. A while back, I ruminated on the fact that I had always considered myself a "real" "patriotic" American...but maybe the American tradition that *I* value....the one where church and state are separated, where religious tolerance (as Jefferson, a founding father wrote about so eloquently in the statue of religious tolerance in Virginia)......the one where diversity is celebrated, where resistance to tyranny is considered valuable...the America of people who buck the system, fight for justice, and make real change...maybe that's not the SAME America that SOME people value..maybe they value the America of the McCarthy Era, the Palmer Raids, the extermination of Native Americans, the internment of Japanese Americans, the enslavement of African Americans, etc. What I don't really understand about this ongoing conversation..is the lack of charity. When I was brought up as a Roman Catholic I was taught that "the greatest" of the virtues was love or charity. To me, compassion and caring is one of the paramount values, and I thought that was what the Christian religion purported to teach. That would mean the utmost respect for other people. If you were applying for a job, and someone wanted to be called Mrs. would you call her Miss? Probably not...so why not call people what they want to be called, and greet them in the way they want be greeted even though they are a minority and don't have power over you? Why insist on YOUR holiday being the norm, enshrined as the MOST IMPORTANT and only REAL or valid holiday..why not take personal and private joy, celebrate with your co-religionists, and be happy? Why is there this need to impose YOUR holiday on EVERYone? I'm afraid I see no evidence of Christianity being repressed or Christians being oppressed here in the United States. The most recent news article *I* saw was about a nativity scene being shown at a courthouse, so someone put up a Yule/wiccan symbol...guess which symbol was vandalized? (I'm happy to post urls, etc.) If you think oppression or repression is a clerk at a store wishing you "Happy Holidays" rather than "Merry Christmas" you have not experienced oppression. Oppression is about name-calling, assaults, deprivation of family, job, housing, health care, etc. etc. etc. It's about depriving someone of the right to celebrate their holiday. I think Christians are SO used to Christmas being the norm that if it is not explicitly mentioned in every other breath, they decide that people are "diluting it." I don't think so. I think there is a consciousness that is growing in the United States that NOT EVERYONE thinks or believes the same things. I think there is a burgeoning awareness that courtesy means NOT assuming that everyone is white, or Christian, or heteroseuxal. Christianity is NOT the state religion in the U.S. (as the Muslim religion is in some countries) Also, I'm disheartened that no one heard what I said about some people, particularly the homeless, the hungry, those that Christ cared about..having a particularly hard time with Christmas, and Christmas greetings.....does no one have a care for them? And, although this is new year for most people in the United States, teh Cambodians celebrate new year in April...Vietnamese and Chinese celebrate the new year at Tet which is somewhere in January or February..not everyone is on the same calendar. Why is it so difficult to rejoice and delight in our own beliefs and heritage, and at the same time, understand that others do not share them and that is fine? In terms of the dilution of Christmas? Here in California (supposedly home of diversity), I have been to tne or eleven "holiday" concerts... for our children. In most of them, there has been no mention of the Yule or Solstice....usually a token Chanukah mention (but not always), and a TON of Christmas carols, including specifically religious one such as "It came upon a midnight clear.." or "We three Kings of Orient are..." I see this as oblivious and disrespectful of other traditions...but frankly, it's not a battle worth fighting for me right now. How is it repressing Christmas? How often are there Christian prayers in the Senate and the House of Representatives and how often are there prayers from other religions? I also know of another story about how an Army Chaplain who was Christian (I think Presbyterian) decided that he was Wiccan instead, and was no longer allowed to be a chaplain (again, I can find the news story). Susan From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 31 05:19:11 2007 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 05:19:11 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Tonks: I would imagine it might be somewhat like what must have happened in the Russian countries where Alla grew up, years before she was born. It is the way to change a culture into one with no religion, and it is done one piece at a time, little by little and be sure you get to the children first. This is why Christians are so upset about it. We can see where this is leading. Alla: Unless you are suggesting that in the US people who practice any religion that does not support communist authorities are being sent to jail, trust me that is not what happening here and I cannot see this ever happening here. I keep asking this question and I did not see the answer yet, so maybe you could answer. Where, oh where is this war on Christmas happening in the USA? Any links of schools being frightened and not putting Christmas trees? People afraid to say Merry Christmas and staff like that? Because really I have not noticed any of my colleagues at work for example to not wish merry christmas to the people in the office. Neither did I notice as I mentioned upthread that super of my building and many others afraid of putting Merry christmas in the hall. Neither did I notice the lack of nativity scenes on the people's lawns in Brooklyn. In fact, come to think of it I saw at least somewhere around 30 of them, counting roughly in a rather small neighborhood yesterday. Or is it some people just being kind to people around them and make a rather bold assumption that not everybody around them is Christian and they figure they'd greet them with something else other than Merry christmas? Russian orthodox church by the way was allowed to thrive AS LONG AS they supported official regime - that was the key. No, they were not allowed to be official ideology of the Soviet Russia - that was communism, which also worked as some sort of religious substitute from my point of view. People were told to believe in happy and joyous future as long as they are trying to build communist paradise. Many branches of christianity that REFUSED to support official regime were pretty much forbidden, just as judaism was forced to stay very low key. Famous expression was that religion is opium for masses, LOL. But again russian orthodox supported the authorities and were just fine and dandy as far as I know. Alla From tonks_op at yahoo.com Mon Dec 31 06:00:59 2007 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 06:00:59 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Tonks: > > When a company that I do business with in the U.S. and the U.K. both send me the same e-greeting card after 5:00pm on Dec. 24th and the one from the U.S. says "Happy Holliday" and the one from the U.K. says "Merry Christmas", that says to me that the corportations in the U.S. are going overboard on political correctness. Just > > what "holiday" are they talking about? CHRISTMAS! Damn it... call it what it IS. > > > Susan: > Except that Christmas is NOT the only holiday celebrated in December in the United States. There is Chanukah and the Winter Solstice/Yule. That's the whole point! > Tonks: You missed my point. Don't wish me a Happy Holiday on December 25th. It is no other Holiday that I know of except Christmas. (I thought that Yule was on the longest night or something and that was not on Dec. 25th. this year.) Susan: > What I don't really understand about this ongoing conversation..is the lack of charity. When I was brought up as a Roman Catholic I was > taught that "the greatest" of the virtues was love or charity. To me, compassion and caring is one of the paramount values, and I thought that was what the Christian religion purported to teach. That would mean the utmost respect for other people. Snip) > Why insist on YOUR holiday being the norm, enshrined as the MOST > IMPORTANT and only REAL or valid holiday.. > Tonks: It seems to me that there is a lack of charity on both sides. That is IMO because this is not just a debate about ideas, but about things that are near and dear to our hearts. Also what I think we have here in this debate is a difference in age of those on opposite sides of the fence. I am 60 and I know Geoff is older and Carol is 50 something. We remember a different time and different customs. I for one grew up in a small town in the Midwest. I think that small towns in the Midwest are not too much different today as far as celebration of Christmas goes. (I no longer live there, but in a larger city nearby.) The ones on the other side of the fence, such as Alla are younger and live in big cities like New York. New York city and a town with the population of 3,000 (or even 36,000 where I live now.) in Mid- American are too very different worlds. So to some extent, we are not even fighting the same battle here. IMO. I realize that times have changed and that there are more people from other religions here in the U.S. and even those with no belief. Maybe there have always been those with no belief, and they are free to come out of the closet now. The problem as I see it, is the world is different, and some of us don???t want to lose the culture that we know and love. One of the companies that I work for sent a memo around saying that we say "Merry Christmas", that we are not a "Happy Holiday" company. I applauded him for being so bold. Then I realize that I have been so brainwashed by society in recent years to say ???Happy Holidays???, I couldn???t bring myself to say Merry Christmas until two days before Christmas. I even met other people in the street that I know are Christian and they know that I am and we both blurted out "Happy Holiday", what is wrong with this picture?!! We are being conditioned by society. A society that apparently has changed and I want it to stay the same as it was in my childhood??? at least at Christmas. Susan: > In terms of the dilution of Christmas? Here in California (supposedly home of diversity), I have been to tne or eleven "holiday" concerts... for our children. In most of them, there has been no mention of the Yule or Solstice....usually a token Chanukah mention (but not always), and a TON of Christmas carols, including specifically religious one such as "It came upon a midnight clear.." or "We three Kings of Orient are..." I see this as oblivious and disrespectful of other traditions...but frankly, it's not a battle worth fighting for me right now. > How is it repressing Christmas? > Tonks: I rest my case!! This was a CHRISTMAS concert, but they felt they could not call it that. It was not an all inclusive Holiday concert, and you were offended by that. That is just my point. Something that is a Christmas 'tree', or concert can not be called what it obviously is, because the PC police feels it will offend someone. And you were right to be offended anyway, because it was not a "Holiday" concert. If it were really a "Holiday" concert it would have been more inclusive. It should have been called a Christmas concert, because that is what it was! I am not saying that I am opposed to a "Holiday" concert, but don't take one thing and try to call it something that it is obviously not. Tonks_op From Schlobin at aol.com Mon Dec 31 06:14:55 2007 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 06:14:55 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" wrote: >> Also what I think we have here in this debate is a difference in age > of those on opposite sides of the fence. I am 60 and I know Geoff is > older and Carol is 50 something. We remember a different time and > different customs. I for one grew up in a small town in the Midwest. > I think that small towns in the Midwest are not too much different > today as far as celebration of Christmas goes. (I no longer live > there, but in a larger city nearby.) > I'm 56. Susan From Schlobin at aol.com Mon Dec 31 06:17:13 2007 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 06:17:13 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Tonks: > I rest my case!! This was a CHRISTMAS concert, but they felt they > could not call it that. It was not an all inclusive Holiday concert, > and you were offended by that. That is just my point. Something that > is a Christmas 'tree', or concert can not be called what it > obviously is, because the PC police feels it will offend someone. > And you were right to be offended anyway, because it was not > a "Holiday" concert. If it were really a "Holiday" concert it would > have been more inclusive. It should have been called a Christmas > concert, because that is what it was! I am not saying that I am > opposed to a "Holiday" concert, but don't take one thing and try to > call it something that it is obviously not. > > But it shouldn't have been a Christmas concert. It should have been a concert that encompassed the beliefs of ALL the children at the school...and I know personally several who are Jewish From Schlobin at aol.com Mon Dec 31 06:19:37 2007 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 06:19:37 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > I realize that times have changed and that there are more people > from other religions here in the U.S. and even those with no > belief. Maybe there have always been those with no belief, and they > are free to come out of the closet now. The problem as I see it, is > the world is different, and some of us don???t want to lose the > culture that we know and love. > No one is asking you to lose your culture. You are entitled to it. But it is NOT the NORM, and really has never been the NORM for everyone..... Please understand that it's your culture, but it does not have to be accepted by EVERYONE.....that's imposing YOUR culture on everyone else... Susan From tonks_op at yahoo.com Mon Dec 31 06:28:56 2007 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 06:28:56 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Susan: > > > But it shouldn't have been a Christmas concert. > > It should have been a concert that encompassed the beliefs of ALL the > children at the school...and I know personally several who are Jewish Tonks: How odd, if it were a 'school' concert, that any religious songs would be done at all. Was it just a concert that rented the school space, or something actually put on by the 'school'? I am inclined to think that it was a group renting the space. I went to see the Islamic Sufi Whirling Dervish dancers at a school one night, but it was not a school function. I was under the impression that if it is a school function that not even songs talking about Santa can be sung. I know that Santa can no longer visit schools in my area. Tonks_op From Schlobin at aol.com Mon Dec 31 06:33:04 2007 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 06:33:04 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > > > Tonks: > You missed my point. Don't wish me a Happy Holiday on December 25th. > It is no other Holiday that I know of except Christmas. (I thought > that Yule was on the longest night or something and that was not on > Dec. 25th. this year.) > > It's very close to December 25th.. usually between the 21st and the 23rd..and although Chanukah was early this year, I think last year it WAS on 12/25..also Ramadan sometimes occurs on 12/25.... There ARE other holidays on December 25th... And the person who is wishing you happy holidays IS wishing that whatever holiday you are celebrating is a happy and joyous one..it's an INCLUSIVE greeting.......not one that EXCLUDES everyone else who is celebrating a holiday... *************** Okay, suppose you are Wiccan....LOTS of people celebrate Halloween as a secular holiday....but in fact it is one of the four most sacred holidays in the wiccan calendar...should a Wiccan be offended because someone says "happy Halloween" instead of "bright blessings this samhain"? The issue here is of DOMINANCE..Christians DOMINATE so they believe they can dictate the discourse INCLUDING how someone wishes someone else the blessings of the season... And if someone doesn't comply? Well, boycott their business! Take money away from them! Force them to comply with YOUR religious doctrine.. Susan From tonks_op at yahoo.com Mon Dec 31 06:35:43 2007 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 06:35:43 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Susan> > No one is asking you to lose your culture. > > You are entitled to it. > > But it is NOT the NORM, and really has never been the NORM for > everyone..... > > Please understand that it's your culture, but it does not have to be > accepted by EVERYONE.....that's imposing YOUR culture on everyone > else... Tonks: 'Norm' means what is commonly accepted as what the average person does, or what the majority of people do. And the culture that I love at Christmas use to be the norm almost everywhere in the U.S. If you are 56, you remember that. Unless you have always lived in California. The culture that I knew in my youth is gone, and I can't say that it is being replaced with something better. ;-( From OctobersChild48 at aol.com Mon Dec 31 07:06:02 2007 From: OctobersChild48 at aol.com (OctobersChild48 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 02:06:02 EST Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] OotP Standee! Happy X-mas! Message-ID: Alex Hogan wrote: > I love my sister-in-law! For years now I have gone > begging and pleading > at every store that had them, for all the large > displays of HP when the > DVD's come out. I have one HECK of a collection > (running out of room in > my house)! But Lynell topped them this year! She got > me an unopened 5 > foot by 4 foot display of "Order" complete with a > large prophesy sphere > with Lord Thingy in it, that had to be attatched to > it! And a foot long > OotP wand pen! I love her! > Sandy: I have that one too, as well as four others from the last two movies. I work at a retail establishment where we sell the videos and get all of the promotional material accompanying them. I am fortunate enough to be the only true fanatic there so they let me have it all. I did have a bit of a problem getting the ones for OOP. I had already put my dibs in for it back in July when the movie was released to theaters, but we got new management in the interim. Outsiders, like yourself, had asked for them too, so Mike's solution was to throw them away. I had to go over his head, but I got them. Sandy, running out of room too. **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gav_fiji at yahoo.com Mon Dec 31 09:30:04 2007 From: gav_fiji at yahoo.com (Goddlefrood) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 09:30:04 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Susan: > ..also Ramadan sometimes occurs on 12/25.... Goddlefrood: Living as I do in a country with a significant Muslim minority, and having been here for a good number of years now; also having worked for a Muslim boss at one time, I have to disagree that Ramadan could include 25th December, that is until around the year 2040 or so by the Gregorian calendar. It is movable and moves back by around 10 or 11 days each solar year. Basically, Ramadan includes 25th December for about three years in every forty, hardly common. Besides that, the celebration occurs when Ramadan ends, and what a celebration it can be. From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Dec 31 14:32:25 2007 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 14:32:25 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Tonks: > > How odd, if it were a 'school' concert, that any religious songs would > be done at all. Potioncat: In our area of Virginia, the school winter concerts include holiday songs that are secular in nature. My kids know the dreidle song as well as jingle bells. They also sing songs that come very close to the basis of the religious purposes. I can't recall exactly--- something about love at Christmas and miracle of lights. The main display case in the school holds religious themed holiday items from many faiths---whether their main holiday is in Dec or not. Back to the main topic, I use Merry Christmas most times, and Happy Holidays if in doubt. I went to a HoneyBaked Ham store for our Christmas ham. Now, how likely is it I would be buying ham for any other holiday in Dec? The clerk said "happy holidays" at the same time I said "Merry Christmas" and she beamed, "Yes, Merry Christmas!" I grew up in the Bible Belt--a very fundamental area of the Southern US. I knew of two kinds of people back then--Baptists and sinners. And the sinners celebrated Christmas too. Potioncat---who has no intent to offend, but is amazed at how much her world has grown. We have friends from many ethnic backgrounds and religions. From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Dec 31 14:43:46 2007 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 14:43:46 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Goddlefrood: > Basically, Ramadan includes 25th December for about three years > in every forty, hardly common. Besides that, the celebration > occurs when Ramadan ends, and what a celebration it can be. Potioncat: It fell around Christmas time a few years ago. Caused quite a stir in our school because some of our students were fasting, yet it was tradition to have winter parties. Some parents were still smarting that it's winter parties, not Christmas parties, and now they were being told not to have food at the parties. The administration was just trying to be sensitive to everyone's needs. From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Mon Dec 31 15:44:51 2007 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 15:44:51 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Geoff: One of the problems of living in the UK is that I often retire to bed at about midnight and, on checking the HP groups at about 07:15 the following morning, I find that a whole flood of messages have come in overnight - from my perspective. This morning, about two dozen had arrived and I am just finding time in the early afternoon to read and digest them. Magpie: > I'm afraid I still don't get it. > But who are you referring to here? Are you making a comment about > what I guess would be just called "bad Christians?" Or "weak Christians?" > People you don't think practice their faith correctly--like basically > an internal disagreement amongst people of the same church? Geoff: Just in passing, I have to say that I didn't quite get what you were referring to in the above paragraph. Moving on, another problem I find on the HP groups is that they are established for people interested in a British author who wrote a book about British children in a British environment. But, speaking as a UK citizen, I often feel swamped by the large number of group members who are from the US and Canada and equate matters in the stories to their surroundings. I often see evidence that they perceive what is being written or said in the context of their own culture or language and, they get hold of the wrong end of the stick. As an aside, I have noticed that some fan fiction writers copmmit the most appalling blunders because they have not researched UK culture properly. I have written already that this present discussion points up the differences between UK and North American thinking from which springs the misunderstanding, and heat and light which has been generated over what is really a storm in a teacup. The UK has an official state church unlike the US and, until fairly recently, the festivals held by other religions such as Hanukkah or Diwali were not well-known outside folk of those faiths and relatively little publicity was given to them. In general, Bank holidays in the UK, either take names relative to the time of year - Spring Bank Holiday, May Day Bank Holiday, Late Summer Bank Holiday etc. - or are linked to Christian festivals - Eaater Monday, Christmas Day etc. I commented yesterday that the great majority of people in the UK will, if asked, claim to be Christian. It is a standing joke - in England at least - that when, on entering hospital, you are asked "What is your religion?" and you say "I don't know" or something similar, you are automatically marked down as "CofE". Many people, again, will turn to the Christian church for the christening of babies or the burial of the dead. And especially at Christmas, large numbers of poeple will turn out for the special services - Carols by Candlelight, Christmas Eve midnight service, Christmas morning worship - and will pay nominal lip service to being Christians for just those few occasions. The numbers of people living in the UK who are not Christian has been rising steadily over many years. As a result, communities have developed, often in larger towns and cities where believers who are, say, Muslim or Hindu have come together in specific areas. But, outside these areas, across the length and breadth of Britain, the great majority of residents follow the dates of Christian festivals, set their holidays by them and many are not familiar with the traditions and beliefs of followers of other religions because they just haven't met up with them. Even in schools, where teaching about other faiths goes on, pupils probably don't share this sort of belief with one another and the numbers of adherents in a town may not be large enough for them to worship in a dedicated building. I lived for many years within 3 miles of Brixton in South London, one of the largest black communities in Britain where I was a white face lost in a sea of black. Over 30 years teaching in the same school, the ethnic school roll rose from none to about 25%. Now, my nearest town is 6 miles away and has a population of about 10000. The ethnic minority population is less than 1%. I hope this will help group members who do not live in Great Britain to understand why the differences in our approach and attitude compared to those, say, in the States occur and where our perspective stems from. From Schlobin at aol.com Mon Dec 31 17:01:44 2007 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 17:01:44 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" wrote: > > Susan: > > > > > But it shouldn't have been a Christmas concert. > > > > It should have been a concert that encompassed the beliefs of ALL the > > children at the school...and I know personally several who are Jewish > > Tonks: > > How odd, if it were a 'school' concert, that any religious songs would > be done at all. Was it just a concert that rented the school space, or > something actually put on by the 'school'? I am inclined to think that > it was a group renting the space. I went to see the Islamic Sufi > Whirling Dervish dancers at a school one night, but it was not a school > function. I was under the impression that if it is a school function > that not even songs talking about Santa can be sung. I know that Santa > can no longer visit schools in my area. > > Tonks_op > No. It was a school concert facilitated by the music department of the school. I don't know where you are. I was at Freshwater Elementary School in Freshwater, California on December 20th. Each grade sang two songs. Then, the chorus sang. Then various types of the band performed. My children performed in it. This has been my experience in Saline, Michigan and at Washington School in Eureka California as well for the past five years. Susan From Schlobin at aol.com Mon Dec 31 17:04:30 2007 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 17:04:30 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" wrote: > > Susan> > > No one is asking you to lose your culture. > > > > You are entitled to it. > > > > But it is NOT the NORM, and really has never been the NORM for > > everyone..... > > > > Please understand that it's your culture, but it does not have to > be > > accepted by EVERYONE.....that's imposing YOUR culture on everyone > > else... > > Tonks: > 'Norm' means what is commonly accepted as what the average person > does, or what the majority of people do. And the culture that I love > at Christmas use to be the norm almost everywhere in the U.S. If you > are 56, you remember that. Unless you have always lived in > California. The culture that I knew in my youth is gone, and I can't > say that it is being replaced with something better. ;-( > Tonks, I grew up in West Hempstead, Long Island, New York which was a bastion of Ozzie and Harriet type values. Perhaps the NORM was the wrong way to put it. But in the midst of all the mannikins being white and all the police officers and mail carriers being male and all the holiday songs being religious ones about Christmas, there was a population of Jewish people, a bunch of African American people living in the same town, and lots of women. That's what I mean. Not EVERYone was celebrating Christmas even in 1956. Susan From Schlobin at aol.com Mon Dec 31 17:08:01 2007 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 17:08:01 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" wrote: > > Susan: > > > > > But it shouldn't have been a Christmas concert. > > > > It should have been a concert that encompassed the beliefs of ALL the > > children at the school...and I know personally several who are Jewish > > Tonks: > > How odd, if it were a 'school' concert, that any religious songs would > be done at all. Was it just a concert that rented the school space, or > something actually put on by the 'school'? I am inclined to think that > it was a group renting the space. I went to see the Islamic Sufi > Whirling Dervish dancers at a school one night, but it was not a school > function. I was under the impression that if it is a school function > that not even songs talking about Santa can be sung. I know that Santa > can no longer visit schools in my area. > > Tonks_op > In fact, in the past 20 years in Michigan it's HALLOWEEN that has been banned in many schools, and in the Ann Arbor school district wearing a witch's costume was banned -- due to pressure by Christians who say that the holiday and wearing witches' costumes is a glorification of witchcraft, which, in their opinion (like Harry Potter) is evil. I'd be happy to provide verification of that fact, and I wouldn't be surprised (since these right wing campaigns are orchestrated) that it didn't happen in other parts of the country. Susan From Schlobin at aol.com Mon Dec 31 17:09:21 2007 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 17:09:21 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Goddlefrood" wrote: > > > Susan: > > ..also Ramadan sometimes occurs on 12/25.... > > Goddlefrood: > > Living as I do in a country with a significant Muslim minority, > and having been here for a good number of years now; also having > worked for a Muslim boss at one time, I have to disagree that > Ramadan could include 25th December, that is until around the > year 2040 or so by the Gregorian calendar. It is movable and > moves back by around 10 or 11 days each solar year. > > Basically, Ramadan includes 25th December for about three years > in every forty, hardly common. Besides that, the celebration > occurs when Ramadan ends, and what a celebration it can be. > You're probably correct. But I was running a shelter during the last time that Ramadan ran during December, when we were discussing holiday celebrations, which is why I mentioned it. Susan From Schlobin at aol.com Mon Dec 31 17:19:17 2007 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 17:19:17 -0000 Subject: coercion Message-ID: What I object to about boycotts of stores that require their employees to say happy holidays rather than Merry Christmas (in an effort to be more inclusive....is that it's trying to force people to participate in a religious holiday, (or any kind of holiday). Those employees who do not celebrate Christmas - they should be forced to say "merry christmas?" People who do not celebrate should be forced to listen to "merry christmas" in the stores What we did in our shelter was similar to what they did in a school mentioned...we had decorations and information about all holidays, and education about them posted as well. We tried to provide support for those who were not celebrating any holidays...one of our commons areas was "decoration free"...it was all about compromise and trying to have respect for all peoples and all beliefs... Susan From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 31 19:09:47 2007 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 19:09:47 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Alla: > > Where is the proof that americans are afraid to name it? I see quite > the contrary so far. If respecting other people holidays is being > equaled to being afraid to name Christmas? > > Carol earlier: > Christmas trees have become holiday trees; Christmas stamps have become holiday stamps (even though Hanukkah and other holidays have their own stamps); Christmas cards have become holiday cards. It started with the supposed separation of church and state preventing kids from singing true Christmas carols (but not "Jingle Bells" or "Santa Claus is Coming to Town") in schools. Now some schools are afraid to put up Christmas trees for fear of offending the four to six percent of children who don't celebrate Christmas. > > Alla: > > Supposed separation of church and state? > > But in any event I do not know what are you talking about. Super > intendent in my building and in many buildings in NY put up > Christmas tree, Chanukia, put up Merry Christmas, Happy New year > greetings, etc. What fear? What opression of Christians? As I said I > am very well aware of oppression of christians in other countries, > but in the USA? I would like to see some links. >Carol earlier: > > Your [Susan's] right to your religious symbols is being threatened, but so is the Christian majority's right to put up Nativity scenes, which have long been banned in public places (since the 1970s, I think?), but now are vandalized if they appear on someone's lawn. > > > Alla: > > Links please about vandalizing nativity scenes? I mean, I am sure it > could have happened somewhere sometimes even in the US, but are you > saying it is happening on the regular basis? Carol: I'm speaking mostly from my own experience. When I was a school child, we sang Christmas carols (the religious ones) along with "Jingle Bells" and songs about Santa Claus. Now the kids can't do that, at least not in the public schools where I've attended Christmas concerts recently, because it supposedly violates the separation of church and state. (At the most recent concert, Christmas was represented by a skit on the Grinch and a song about Santa getting stuck in the chimney. There was also an Aesop's fable about a peacock and a Hanukkah song about dreidls (sp) even though Hanukkah was over with at that point. No "Silent Night" or anything identifiably tied to the Nativity story. Not even "God Rest Ye Merry, Gentlemen," which mentions God. In Flagstaff, Arizona, where I grew up, the city used to put up a beautiful Nativity scene beside the train depot every year. It was vandalized in the 1970s by people who objected to a religious display and has not been put up since. And how long has it been since you've seen a Nativity scene in a mall or store (other than the small ones being sold to put up inside people's houses--I've very few in people's yards in the last twenty years). Until about ten years ago, people, including store clerks, wished each other Merry Christmas and thought nothing of it. The greeting was warmly given and warmly received. No one had heard of a holiday tree, holiday card, holiday stamp. Now store managers order their employees to wish customers "happy holidays," a meaningless generic greeting. I'm not going to wish you a happy holiday today, Alla. That, to me, would insult the holiday you hold dear. I wish you a Happy New Year's Eve tonight and a Happy New Year tomorrow and all year through. It's a specific holiday you care about, and I'm sure you don't want it to get lost in the mishmash that makes every day from Thanksgiving to New Year's Day "the holidays" in the U.S. I haven't decided whether the desire of merchants to make a profit or political correctness is more to blame, but the loss of specific holidays, each with their own identity and significance, is, to me, a sad loss. Carol, who does not have time to search for links because she's supposed to be working but for now will provide this link to an article on a similar topic on Ben Stein's website: http://www.benstein.com/121805xmas.html From sistermagpie at earthlink.net Mon Dec 31 19:19:35 2007 From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 19:19:35 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Tonks: > I think that Geoff is saying what many Christians in the U.S. feel > and that is that pe ople who are not Christian and hostile to > Christianity are trying to remove any signs of Christianity from the > country. Magpie: I didn't think that's what he's saying--it doesn't sound like that. He's not in the same country. Afaik there isn't the same debate going on there. Tonks: > This ???war on Christmas??? would be the same as some group in a Muslim > country trying to eradicate the Muslim religion from that country > bit by bit. (of course, it would be much harder there since there is > no seperation of church and state.) Magpie: By "War on Christmas" I was referring to the imo completely bogus campaign to claim that anybody's trying to get rid of Christmas or any Christians are being kept from openly celebrating it. Christianity isn't being eradicated bit by bit imo--there is no war on it. What you describe as "Christians seeing where it's leading" is imo mistaken. It just seems ironic to on the one hand reminisce about the days when non-Christians allegedly didn't exist and then in the next breath claim that Christianity is being eradicated bit by bit. Those other people weren't eradicated back then and they were getting less acknowledgement than Christianity is getting. Tonks: > When a company that I do business with in the U.S. and the U.K. both > send me the same e-greeting card after 5:00pm on Dec. 24th and the > one from the U.S. says "Happy Holliday" and the one from the U.K. > says "Merry Christmas", that says to me that the corportations in > the U.S. are going overboard on political correctness. Just > what "holiday" are they talking about? CHRISTMAS! Damn it... call it > what it IS. Magpie: The fact that you feel frightened at the fact that your card isn't specific enough to Christmas says Christinaity is still enjoying a very priviledged place in the US to me. Nothing's been eradicated in that e-mail. And of course no religious observance has any reason to expect a corporate e-mail to mention it anyway. Tonks: You missed my point. Don't wish me a Happy Holiday on December 25th. It is no other Holiday that I know of except Christmas. (I thought that Yule was on the longest night or something and that was not on Dec. 25th. this year.) Magpie: Fine, you're annoyed that on Christmas Eve it seems a lot more obvious to just give an actual Christmas greeting but is that really something to call a "war" or claim your religion is being eradicated? Maybe the company is sending a mass e-mailing and so knows that it's going to go to at least some people who don't celebrate Christmas and they think it makes more sense to use an inclusive greeting so that the non-Christian isn't getting a specific wishing of Christmas while the other person is getting an inclusive greeting. The "holiday" in that case meaning they hope they have a happy day off. They don't have to send a greeting at all, but I can easily imagine them saying hey, let's send out a mass e-mailing to all our clients. I guess we should make it neutral since we don't know all their backgrounds. That seems more natural to me than them saying let's not wish anybody merry Christmas because we're trying to get rid of it. Of course, speaking of the past, I also remember when "happy Holidays" meant Christmas and New Year's and it didn't occur to anyone to think it was anti-Christmas. Tonks: The ones on the other side of the fence, such as Alla are younger and live in big cities like New York. New York city and a town with the population of 3,000 (or even 36,000 where I live now.) in Mid- American are too very different worlds. So to some extent, we are not even fighting the same battle here. IMO. Magpie: Right--and what's the battle, exactly? Because it seems like your point is that you're used to total Christmas world where no one else exists and don't like having less priviledge that way. I just don't think this indicates your religion is actually in any danger any more than a Jewish person's personal religion or ability to celebrate Passover was in danger back when your small town always said Merry Christmas. As you say, you don't want to lose the culture you know and love, but you yourself admit that that culture is based on the privileging of your religion over others. I can understand not liking the change, but think it's unfair to claim its the same as being persecuted or forbidden to practice your religion or celebrate Christmas openly. Tonks: One of the companies that I work for sent a memo around saying that we say "Merry Christmas", that we are not a "Happy Holiday" company. I applauded him for being so bold. Then I realize that I have been so brainwashed by society in recent years to say ???Happy Holidays???, I couldn???t bring myself to say Merry Christmas until two days before Christmas. I even met other people in the street that I know are Christian and they know that I am and we both blurted out "Happy Holiday", what is wrong with this picture?!! We are being conditioned by society. A society that apparently has changed and I want it to stay the same as it was in my childhood??? at least at Christmas. Magpie: And nobody arrested them for sending out a memo directing everyone to wish everyone the Christian holiday? Looks like Christmas is in no danger then, doesn't it? Is your being "conditioned" to say Happy Holidays first really such a tragedy when as you yourself say you can just as easily say merry Christmas if you so choose? I know I'm one of the people coming from one of those areas of the country that's always been aware of non-Christians, but to me this sounds like psyching yourself up to be less polite--your boss just officially chose to make sure Christmas-celebrators be personally validated rather than lean slightly the other way and avoid reminding minorities that they are minorities. Tonks: I rest my case!! This was a CHRISTMAS concert, but they felt they could not call it that. It was not an all inclusive Holiday concert, and you were offended by that. That is just my point. Something that is a Christmas 'tree', or concert can not be called what it obviously is, because the PC police feels it will offend someone. And you were right to be offended anyway, because it was not a "Holiday" concert. If it were really a "Holiday" concert it would have been more inclusive. It should have been called a Christmas concert, because that is what it was! I am not saying that I am opposed to a "Holiday" concert, but don't take one thing and try to call it something that it is obviously not. Magpie: Err...she said it was a winter concert/holiday concert, didn't she? It was supposed to be inclusive, and it still leaned heavily towards Christmas. The "holiday tree" business is, imo, completely exaggerated, part of drumming up fear for this supposed war on Christmas. If somebody wants to call their decorated tree a holiday tree because it's public property or whatever, that's not them telling you what to call your tree, it's you complaining about what they're calling their tree. It's maybe annoying if somebody calls it a Holiday tree, but there aren't any real p.c. police. The only time anybody could be told to call them that is, presumably, if they're on some property and somebody complains--which is little different from your boss announcing that he (and all his employees) should say merry Christmas because you're a merry Christmas company. Susan: > > > But it shouldn't have been a Christmas concert. > > It should have been a concert that encompassed the beliefs of ALL the > children at the school...and I know personally several who are Jewish Tonks: How odd, if it were a 'school' concert, that any religious songs would be done at all. Was it just a concert that rented the school space, or something actually put on by the 'school'? I am inclined to think that it was a group renting the space. I went to see the Islamic Sufi Whirling Dervish dancers at a school one night, but it was not a school function. I was under the impression that if it is a school function that not even songs talking about Santa can be sung. I know that Santa can no longer visit schools in my area. Magpie: She was there, I would think she knows what was going on. Maybe the p.c. police haven't eradicated Christianity and in fact kids are allowed to sing Christmas Carols with reference to Christianity in school? She said they also included a Hannukkah song, which is also possibly religious. Choosing to leave out any actual religious Christmas Carols is probably down to individual people involved, both parents complaining or administrators deciding what people will want. We're just working through this stuff now, there's going to be compromising and people on both sides making demands. I mean, it seems odd that you said it was "bold" on the part of your employer to send out a company wide memo validating Christmas but then think a school couldn't sing a Christmas Carol. I work for an actual church corporation and nobody's ever told me what I'm supposed to say to anyone. Magpie: > I'm afraid I still don't get it. > But who are you referring to here? Are you making a comment about > what I guess would be just called "bad Christians?" Or "weak Christians?" > People you don't think practice their faith correctly--like basically > an internal disagreement amongst people of the same church? Geoff: Just in passing, I have to say that I didn't quite get what you were referring to in the above paragraph. Magpie: Sorry, I meant I didn't understand what phenomenon you were referring to when you talked about people "diluting" Christianity etc. ' Re: HP, Brit-picking (going through stories to remove things that stick out as wrong for Great Britain) is an important part of HP fanfic for most writers. People still get it wrong, and there are writers who are lazy, but I just thought you might like knowing that in general making the story correct in terms of British culture is considered a basic requirement for quality. So many authors have specific people to go through their stories and make corrections, and there are communities for questions about the culture etc. And people blatantly sticking in Americanisms are loudly mocked.:-) That said, I assume that a lot of this conversation is very US- centric. Tonks: 'Norm' means what is commonly accepted as what the average person does, or what the majority of people do. And the culture that I love at Christmas use to be the norm almost everywhere in the U.S. If you are 56, you remember that. Unless you have always lived in California. The culture that I knew in my youth is gone, and I can't say that it is being replaced with something better. ;-( Magpie: I completely sympathize with your feeling times have changed. But I just have to point out that more than once when you've described this culture and how good it was, you've even defined it by being exclusive, depending on different people not existing when of course they did exist. It seems like it's easier for me to say Happy Holidays without feeling like I've lost anything, so I can't really understand how that feels. But I still don't think that makes it persecution or the eradication of anything. Trying to please everyone is always going to require compromise and probably few people will be truly happy about it. We haven't yet worked it out yet. Many groups are used to not having their holiday even known by most people, much less acknowledged just because they walked into a store. So for another group to say--whoa! A company is not specifically validating the holiday that I personally am celebrating? That's oppressive! It just seems a little silly. Carol: Until about ten years ago, people, including store clerks, wished each other Merry Christmas and thought nothing of it. The greeting was warmly given and warmly received. No one had heard of a holiday tree, holiday card, holiday stamp. Now store managers order their employees to wish customers "happy holidays," a meaningless generic greeting. Magpie: I didn't, and I was a store clerk about ten years ago. I said Happy Holidays unless somebody wished me merry Christmas first, which of course meant that's what they celebrated. Since my store had a pretty big Jewish clientele, it was natural for me to not automatically say Merry Christmas. It was just as warmly given and warmly received, and there was nothing meaningless about it. Like I said, I remember when 'Happy holidays' meant Christmas and New Year's as well, and wasn't considered anti-Christmas. Carol: It's a specific holiday you care about, and I'm sure you don't want it to get lost in the mishmash that makes every day from Thanksgiving to New Year's Day "the holidays" in the U.S. I haven't decided whether the desire of merchants to make a profit or political correctness is more to blame, but the loss of specific holidays, each with their own identity and significance, is, to me, a sad loss. Magpie: Except you haven't lost it. If you know what holiday somebody celebrates you're perfectly welcome to wish it to them, just as you just said Happy New Year. Specific holidays with their own identity and significance is understandably a little at odds with crowds of strangers. If it's about greeting the person in a way that will give them the most pleasure, it just seems logical to me--your ideal is to avoid wishing them a dominant holiday that they don't celebrate and so might already make them feel a little left out and to wish them the holiday they do celebrate. -m From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 31 19:35:43 2007 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 19:35:43 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Susan: > > Except that Christmas is NOT the only holiday celebrated in December > in the United States. There is Chanukah and the Winter Solstice/Yule. > That's the whole point! > Carol responds: Except that Hanukkah this year began at sunset on December 4 and ended, if my calculations are correct, on the evening of December 12. (In 2005, it was different as the first day of Hanukkah was December 25, but, stil, Hanukkah hadn't begun yet when the clerks were wishing the shoppers "Happy holidays." And I doubt that the store clerks who are wishing their customers "Happy holidays" as they come to the counter with purchases obviously intended as gifts are thinking about Yule or are even familiar with the customs involved. 95 or 96 percent of Americans celebrate Christmas, and I'm willing to bet that most of the people who are wished "Happy holidays" are *Christmas* shoppers. But the store managers, afraid of offending a small minority of their customers, even those buying Christmas trees or Christmas decorations, instruct their employees to ignore the very holiday that the vast majority of those customers are planning to celebrate. (Obviously, they're not celebrating Hanukkah when it's already over with.) Carol, who would rather be wished a sincere Happy *Father's* Day when she's obviously not a father, or a happy Ramadan or happy Kwanzaa, which she doesn't celebrate, than a generic, empty, meaningless "Happy Holidays" by someone who is afraid to offend me by naming a holiday which ought to be synonymous with peace on Earth, goodwill to men, erm, humankind From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 31 19:47:44 2007 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 19:47:44 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Alla: > I keep asking this question and I did not see the answer yet, so > maybe you could answer. Where, oh where is this war on Christmas > happening in the USA? Any links of schools being frightened and not > putting Christmas trees? People afraid to say Merry Christmas and > staff like that? > Carol responds: Here's one example. In 2005, Wal-Mart ordered its employees to wish customers, the majority of whom celebrated Christmas, "Happy Holidays." After customers objected to the tactic as a war on Christmas, Wal-mart brought back the "Merry Christmas" greeting. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15639425 However, I was wished "Happy Holidays," not "Merry Christmas," at every store I shopped at this December, including Safeway, JC Penneys, Borders Books, Toys R Us, and Radio Shack. I don't know how many of these stores have actual policies on the subject, but the trend is unmistakeable. Carol, who will look for more links when she has time but notes that a search for "war on Christmas" will generate plenty of results on both sides of the issue From heidi8 at gmail.com Mon Dec 31 19:57:51 2007 From: heidi8 at gmail.com (Heidi Tandy) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 14:57:51 -0500 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1199131075.BE1DC14@ff4.dngr.org> On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 2:35 pm, Carol wrote: > (In 2005, it was different as the first day of Hanukkah was December > 25, but, stil, Hanukkah hadn't begun yet when the clerks were wishing > the shoppers "Happy holidays." But neither had Christmas, unless you're assuming that people were only wishing customers a Merry Christmas on the 24th of December, which is at least Christmas Eve Day. I could argue that the holiday season - yes, including Chanukah, Yule, Kwanza, Christmas and New Year's - starts the day after Thanksgiving and ends on New Year's Day. So a whole week of the holiday season is *after* Christmas (excluding those who celebrate according to the Eastern Orthodox calendar who don't celebrate until January anyway) - and here in Miami, it really doesn't end until Three Kings Day, which on January 6 is about two weeks after the end of Christmas Day. So stores that put up decorations and signage for the season have an economic reason to decorate for the whole of the holiday season, rather than change it as one passes and another begins. I don't know about your local newspapers or other things that are more ephermal, but ours banners the specific holiday on the appropriate day. > But the store managers, afraid of offending a small minority of their > customers, even those buying Christmas trees or Christmas decorations, > instruct their employees to ignore the very holiday that the vast > majority of those customers are planning to celebrate. (Obviously, > they're not celebrating Hanukkah when it's already over with.) Why are obvious presents only for Christmas? People do exchange gifts for Kwanza, and some of us are forced to celebrate our birthdays in late December and early January. Others of us are taking advantage of the sales that usually mesh with Christmas, not with Chanukah, and fulfilling the IOUs that our relatives actually got on the holiday. I do agree with you that if someone is buying a Christmas tree, wishing them a Merry Christmas is understandable, especially far before New Year's Eve, but if it's generic "presents" then what's wrong with wanting to not be presumptive? Heidi From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 31 19:59:30 2007 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 19:59:30 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Potioncat: > It [Ramadan] fell around Christmas time a few years ago. Caused quite a stir in our school because some of our students were fasting, yet it was tradition to have winter parties. Some parents were still smarting that it's winter parties, not Christmas parties, and now they were being told not to have food at the parties. The administration was just trying to be sensitive to everyone's needs. > Carol responds: And ended up being insensitive to the majority, apparently. It remeinds me of the controversy about pigs on coffee cups in the UK awhile back. Carol, who thinks that what's needed is not a rejection of Christmas but a respect for the majority's right to celebrate it, along with the minority's right to fast or whatever they want to do as long as it harms no one From bboyminn at yahoo.com Mon Dec 31 20:08:30 2007 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 20:08:30 -0000 Subject: coercion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- "susanmcgee48176" wrote: > > What I object to about boycotts of stores that require their > employees to say happy holidays rather than Merry Christmas > (in an effort to be more inclusive....is that it's trying to > force people to participate in a religious holiday, (or any > kind of holiday). > > Those employees who do not celebrate Christmas - they should > be forced to say "merry christmas?" People who do not > celebrate should be forced to listen to "merry christmas" > in the stores? > bboyminn: You almost had me, but I think you took it one step too far. True, if you do not celebrate Christmas you should not be force to extend a Christmas-specific greeting to people. But, the end of the calendar year is a general time of celebration for everyone. So, it is, the entire month of December a holiday season. Do you really think the non-Christians are going to refuse a week off work 'for the holidays' because the claim they don't celebrate the holidays? I don't think so. As to the last part, which I object too, 'people who do not celebrate should be forced to listen to 'Merry Christmas' in the store?'. Well, yes, somebody, if fact a majority of people are celebrating Christmas and a Christmas greeting between then IS appropriate. Why should the entire country be forced to conform to the beliefs of a few? I mean if I go into a Chinese restaurant on Chinese New Year and they are celebrating, should I make them stop because I don't celebrate Chinese New Year? Should I refuse to pay the 'special' Chinese New Year prices that are part of the celebrations? Should I refuse the free eggroll and special Chinese New Year foods, not because I don't like them, but because I refuse to celebrate the holiday? I don't think so. It is one thing for you to choose to not celebrate certain holidays, but you really don't have a right to force other people to stop, and you don't have a right to be immune or sheltered from knowing a celebrations in going on. That celebration is a vast vast majority of people exercising their rights as member of a free and opened country. As a minority, you are free not to celebrate, but you are not free to stop others from doing so. So, yes, you do have to endure the Christmas Carols, and wishes of Merry Christmas, because even if you aren't celebrating I am, and whether you like it or not, I do wish you the happiness and blessings of the season, even if you are unwilling to take them. > Susan continues: > > What we did in our shelter was similar to what they did in > a school mentioned...we had decorations and information > about all holidays, and education about them posted as well. > We tried to provide support for those who were not > celebrating any holidays...one of our commons areas was >"decoration free"...it was all about compromise and trying to > have respect for all peoples and all beliefs... > > Susan > bboyminn: This in my opinion is far far more sensible approach. I think as the USA becomes more diverse, we as the majority citizens need to make an effort to be more inclusive of the minority citizens. So, as a community we should make some effort to acknowledge, and to a certain extent celebrate, all religious and non-religious holidays of all represented cultures. Plus, there is the educational aspect of it. Too many Americans see themselves as the center of the universe, which usually gets them into trouble when they travel to foreign countries. We need to realize that we are part of a grand diversity, we piece just as valid and important as the other. The more we know, the more we grow. Steve/bboyminn From sistermagpie at earthlink.net Mon Dec 31 20:09:06 2007 From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 20:09:06 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Potioncat: > > It [Ramadan] fell around Christmas time a few years ago. Caused > quite a stir in our school because some of our students were fasting, > yet it was tradition to have winter parties. Some parents were still > smarting that it's winter parties, not Christmas parties, and now they > were being told not to have food at the parties. The administration > was just trying to be sensitive to everyone's needs. > > > Carol responds: > > And ended up being insensitive to the majority, apparently. It > remeinds me of the controversy about pigs on coffee cups in the UK > awhile back. Magpie: Or baptists who insist weddings can't have any liquor because their sect doesn't drink. Basically, I think this kind of thought goes against the religion itself. If kids are fasting for any religious reason, it's not the job of the society at large to fast. The point is that they're going without, so having food for other people isn't being insensitive to their needs. It's supposed to be hard to fast and non-Muslims aren't supposed to be doing it for Ramadan. As opposed to the Walmart change in greeting despite the "majority" of its customers being Christians--the key word there being majority. They idea being that it's really bad for a Chrsitmas-celebrator to get "happy holidays" that includes Christmas but doesn't priviledge it, but a non-Christmas celebrator should naturally be fine being greeted with Merry Christmas. If Walmart had changed their greeting to only Happy Hannukkah throughout the whole holiday season, I admit I don't think that would be considered acceptable by the same people. In fact, I think it would be considered just as much of a War on Christmas-- while the Merry Christmas isn't a "War on Hannukkah" or whatever because Christians are the majority. -m From anigrrrl2 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 31 20:09:14 2007 From: anigrrrl2 at yahoo.com (Kathryn Lambert) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 12:09:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <313757.32110.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <> Carol, who would rather be wished a sincere Happy *Father's* Day when she's obviously not a father, or a happy Ramadan or happy Kwanzaa, which she doesn't celebrate, than a generic, empty, meaningless "Happy Holidays" by someone who is afraid to offend me by naming a holiday which ought to be synonymous with peace on Earth, goodwill to men, erm, humankind ***Katie: I have been abstaining from this discussion, but I need to chime in. Carol, 'ear, 'ear! I am a very liberal person, as most of you probably have, um, guessed... ; ) But this whole "Happy Holidays" thing really gets on my nerves. Yes, there are other holidays being celebrated during the winter months. But, you know what? I would rather have a Jewish person wish me "Happy Hanukkah", even though I am not Jewish, than wish me a banal "Happy Holidays". It means nothing - to me, or to the person saying it. A hearty "Happy Ramadan" comes from the heart, even if I don't celebrate it. A PC and useless "Happy Holidays" neither comes from the heart, nor touches one. I guess my feeling is, Christmas means something to people. Ramadan, Hanukkah, and Winter Solstice MEAN something. "Happy Holidays" means nothing to no one. When I wish someone "Merry Christmas!", I say it with a smile, with love, and behind that message is 29 years of trees, lights, cookie baking with my grandmother...and all the lovely and loving things that I associate with Christmas. If the person I am wishing to doesn't celebrate Christmas...that doesn't matter. That's not really the point. I am wishing them all the good things I associate with Christmas...and that comes through, because the greeting is genuine. I *mean* it. When I say "Happy Holidays"...it has no meaning for me. So it has no genuine warmth or genuine wishes, unlike my "Merry Christmas" wish. I think wishing people "Happy Holidays" is fine...if that means something to you. Because then it's a genuine message of love and warmth. However, if I wish someone "Merry Christmas", I would hope that person would realize I am wishing them nothing but good things...and please don't get offended because I actually named the holiday I celebrate. There is a point where tolerance for difference becomes intolerance for the traditional...and I think this is one of those cases. There is nothing wrong with wishing a Jewish person a hearty "Merry Christmas!" and if that person responded with an equally enthusiastic "Happy Hanukkah!"...I would certainly not be offended. I would be happy that they had wished me all the goodness that Hanukkah brings for them. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year! KATIE --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 31 20:10:03 2007 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 20:10:03 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > In fact, in the past 20 years in Michigan it's HALLOWEEN that has > been banned in many schools, and in the > Ann Arbor school district wearing a witch's costume was banned -- due > to pressure by Christians who say that the holiday and wearing > witches' costumes is a glorification of witchcraft, which, in their > opinion (like Harry Potter) is evil. > > I'd be happy to provide verification of that fact, and I wouldn't be > surprised (since these right wing campaigns are orchestrated) that it > didn't happen in other parts of the country. > > Susan > Carol responds: I can't speak about any place except Arizona, where Halloween isn't banned but Trick or Treating has become much less popular than it used to be as the result of 9/11. Not sure about this year, but for several years after 2001, malls were promoting safe Trick or Treating within their walls to discourage children from going door to door. (There have been problems with candy bag snatchers since at least the 1980s.) Nothing to do with religion, just an atmosphere of fear and indifference. Nothing like the innocent fun I remember from my childhood, when we Trick or Treated in large groups and the adult who didn't stay home to give out candy was the exception rather than the rule. (This year I had all of five Trick or Treaters, one of them the boy next door. Last year, IIRC, I had only one.) Carol, mourning the world of her childhood and sad that today's children will never know it From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 31 20:11:50 2007 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 20:11:50 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Alla: > > > I keep asking this question and I did not see the answer yet, so > > maybe you could answer. Where, oh where is this war on Christmas > > happening in the USA? Any links of schools being frightened and not > > putting Christmas trees? People afraid to say Merry Christmas and > > staff like that? > > > Carol responds: > > Here's one example. In 2005, Wal-Mart ordered its employees to wish > customers, the majority of whom celebrated Christmas, "Happy > Holidays." After customers objected to the tactic as a war on > Christmas, Wal-mart brought back the "Merry Christmas" greeting. > > http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15639425 > > However, I was wished "Happy Holidays," not "Merry Christmas," at > every store I shopped at this December, including Safeway, JC Penneys, > Borders Books, Toys R Us, and Radio Shack. I don't know how many of > these stores have actual policies on the subject, but the trend is > unmistakeable. > Alla: This is war on Christmas? Those clerks are ordered or do it of their own volition? That they wish happy holidays instead of merry Christmas? I guess when I think of war on Christmas I think of people's ornaments being vandalized regularly, I think of people being put to jail for celebrating Christmas, etc. Not of store employees doing what I perceive respecting minorities. IMO of course. Magpie: By "War on Christmas" I was referring to the imo completely bogus campaign to claim that anybody's trying to get rid of Christmas or any Christians are being kept from openly celebrating it. Christianity isn't being eradicated bit by bit imo--there is no war on it. What you describe as "Christians seeing where it's leading" is imo mistaken. It just seems ironic to on the one hand reminisce about the days when non-Christians allegedly didn't exist and then in the next breath claim that Christianity is being eradicated bit by bit. Those other people weren't eradicated back then and they were getting less acknowledgement than Christianity is getting. Alla: Me too. I guess when my friend who has a solid background in science complains of some schools teaching intelligent design instead of theory of evolution, he should name it war on science. And frankly I see more signs of that war in some places in the US, but not in NY either I have to say. Tonks: The ones on the other side of the fence, such as Alla are younger and live in big cities like New York. New York city and a town with the population of 3,000 (or even 36,000 where I live now.) in Mid- American are too very different worlds. So to some extent, we are not even fighting the same battle here. IMO. Magpie: Right--and what's the battle, exactly? Because it seems like your point is that you're used to total Christmas world where no one else exists and don't like having less privilege that way. I just don't think this indicates your religion is actually in any danger any more than a Jewish person's personal religion or ability to celebrate Passover was in danger back when your small town always said Merry Christmas. As you say, you don't want to lose the culture you know and love, but you yourself admit that that culture is based on the privileging of your religion over others. I can understand not liking the change, but think it's unfair to claim its the same as being persecuted or forbidden to practice your religion or celebrate Christmas openly. Alla: Magpie I should just stop posting and make you speak for me, LOL. I only want to add that I am actually not fighting any battles whatsoever, I just argue that I do not see any signs of war on Christmas here. I do see the separation of church and state ( and I would not want it any other way) and I also see other religions getting more and more acknowledged. BUT as you know as well NY celebrates Christmas very merrily IMO and I do not see how it is being changed. I would not want religion interfering with the state business ever. The judge who put ten commandments in the court room made me very angry. But I would not want Christmas disappearing as a holiday at all, and what's the most important ? I do not SEE it disappearing. Carol: I'm not going to wish you a happy holiday today, Alla. That, to me, would insult the holiday you hold dear. I wish you a Happy New Year's Eve tonight and a Happy New Year tomorrow and all year through. It's a specific holiday you care about, and I'm sure you don't want it to get lost in the mishmash that makes every day from Thanksgiving to New Year's Day "the holidays" in the U.S. I haven't decided whether the desire of merchants to make a profit or political correctness is more. to blame, but the loss of specific holidays, each with their own identity and significance, is, to me, a sad loss. Alla: And I am not asking you to wish me Happy holidays, that is my choice of what to wish people I do not know what they celebrate, but if you know what I celebrate and wish me that, I am very happy. And yes, if I would have agreed with you that Christmas is being lost, I would say it would have been a sad loss for me too. I just do not see it at all. Carol: Carol, who does not have time to search for links because she's supposed to be working but for now will provide this link to an article on a similar topic on Ben Stein's website: http://www.benstein.com/121805xmas.html Alla: LOL. He does not see it in the constitution? But I do agree with him about celebrities. The tremendous interest in the life of the celebrities among the general population is something that I will never be able to grasp. Carol: In Flagstaff, Arizona, where I grew up, the city used to put up a beautiful Nativity scene beside the train depot every year. It was vandalized in the 1970s by people who objected to a religious display and has not been put up since. And how long has it been since you've seen a Nativity scene in a mall or store (other than the small ones being sold to put up inside people's houses--I've very few in people's yards in the last twenty years). Alla: City is an official institution and I am very happy that they do not do it any more. As to when I last saw nativity scene in the store, um, come to Manhattan and take a look in the windows of Lord and Taylor. There were some beautiful ones. I am sure next year it will appear again. I saw it four days ago. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 31 20:23:32 2007 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 20:23:32 -0000 Subject: coercion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: It is one thing for you to choose to not celebrate certain holidays, but you really don't have a right to force other people to stop, and you don't have a right to be immune or sheltered from knowing a celebrations in going on. That celebration is a vast vast majority of people exercising their rights as member of a free and opened country. As a minority, you are free not to celebrate, but you are not free to stop others from doing so. So, yes, you do have to endure the Christmas Carols, and wishes of Merry Christmas, because even if you aren't celebrating I am, and whether you like it or not, I do wish you the happiness and blessings of the season, even if you are unwilling to take them. Alla: Yeah, that's what Magpie was talking about I think. You are wishing them on me even if I am unwilling to take them? Spirit of love and joy? I certainly do not think that I should be excluded from listening Christmas carols, etc, but you think that as minority I am asking too much if I prefer Happy holidays? Okay then. Oh, and I am speaking as generic me by the way. I prefer Happy new year. There is a new year tree in my house and in my brother's house and as I mentioned before my SIL loves christmas as secular holiday. I have no adverse feelings whatsoever to Christmas as a holiday except that I do not celebrate it, but I really think that it is not too much to ask of majority to give some respect to people who want nothing to do with Christmas. Shutting down Christmas carols, not putting nativity scenes, trees? Of course not, this is ridiculous, but to say greeting that includes everybody rather than just christians? Seems like a gesture of respect to me. JMO, Alla From heidi8 at gmail.com Mon Dec 31 20:24:04 2007 From: heidi8 at gmail.com (Heidi Tandy) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 15:24:04 -0500 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: <313757.32110.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <313757.32110.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1199132648.C15CBD6@ff1.dngr.org> On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 3:09 pm, Kathryn Lambert wrote: > I am a very liberal person, as most of you probably have, um, > guessed... ; ) But this whole "Happy Holidays" thing really gets on my > nerves. > > > Yes, there are other holidays being celebrated during the winter > months. But, you know what? I would rather have a Jewish person wish me > "Happy Hanukkah", even though I am not Jewish, than wish me a banal > "Happy Holidays". It means nothing - to me, or to the person saying it. Do you really think so? You are, of course, free to feel that it means nothing to you, but why do you presume it means nothing to the person saying it? I'm actually truly curious as to why you feel this way, because when I wish people a Happy Holidays through about six weeks of the year, I *really mean it*. I want them to have a wonderful and happy holiday, whatever they celebrate during those six-ish weeks. I ask, "What are you doing for the holidays," and I am genuinely interested. And I have a huge collection of Noel Streatfield and Enid Blyton books from the 1940s - 1960s where the characters talk about their "hols" and mean everything surrounding Christmas and New Years and other than one Streatfeild (Theater Shoes) there's not a Jewish or Muslim character around. - heidi From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 31 20:27:30 2007 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 20:27:30 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: <1199132648.C15CBD6@ff1.dngr.org> Message-ID: Heidi: > Do you really think so? > > You are, of course, free to feel that it means nothing to you, but why > do you presume it means nothing to the person saying it? > > I'm actually truly curious as to why you feel this way, because when I > wish people a Happy Holidays through about six weeks of the year, I > *really mean it*. Alla: Me too Heidi, me too. Sometimes that way I actually learn what person celebrates - if the person is not complete stranger that is and I am learning a bit more about people around me. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 31 20:28:20 2007 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 20:28:20 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: <1199131075.BE1DC14@ff4.dngr.org> Message-ID: Heidi: > Why are obvious presents only for Christmas? People do exchange gifts > for Kwanza, and some of us are forced to celebrate our birthdays in late > December and early January. Others of us are taking advantage of the > sales that usually mesh with Christmas, not with Chanukah, and > fulfilling the IOUs that our relatives actually got on the holiday. > > I do agree with you that if someone is buying a Christmas tree, wishing > them a Merry Christmas is understandable, especially far before New > Year's Eve, but if it's generic "presents" then what's wrong with > wanting to not be presumptive? > Carol responds: Shopping carts full of gifts for people of both sexes and all ages are clearly not for one person's birthday, and (please correct me if I'm wron) Hanukkah gifts aren't usually large and expensive as Christmas gifts tend to be. Don't kid yourself; the stores are marketing to Christmas shoppers. As for Kwanzaa, I think it would be pretty obvious to most store clerks which customers *don't* celebrate that holiday. (Does anyone know the percentage who do? Does anyone on this list celebrate Kwanzaa? Just curious.) At any rate, surely if I'm buying a Christmas tree, Christmas cards, or Christmas decorations, it's okay to wish me Merry Christmas! And, BTW, if I were a stickler for such things, I'd point out that December 1 through December 24 is technically Advent, with the Christmas season beginning on Christmas Day, but we're talking merchants and Christmas shopping here, not church attendance. (BTW, I've yet to hear Hanukkah music or Kwanzaa music or Yule music blaring from the speakers during the "holiday" season. It's always either Christmas music, secular or, occasionally, religious, or generic winter music like "Sleigh Bells" or "winter wonderland." The merchants are kidding themselves if they think they're marketing to anyone except Christmas shoppers (though Safeway and a few other stores always carry small displays of kosher food geared toward Jewish customers). Carol, wishing everyone a Happy New Year's Eve or Happy New Year, depending on whether it's December 31 or January 1 where you happen to live From anigrrrl2 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 31 20:35:43 2007 From: anigrrrl2 at yahoo.com (Kathryn Lambert) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 12:35:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: <1199132648.C15CBD6@ff1.dngr.org> Message-ID: <286092.8844.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Heidi Tandy wrote: On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 3:09 pm, Kathryn Lambert wrote: > I am a very liberal person, as most of you probably have, um, > guessed... ; ) But this whole "Happy Holidays" thing really gets on my > nerves. > > > Yes, there are other holidays being celebrated during the winter > months. But, you know what? I would rather have a Jewish person wish me > "Happy Hanukkah", even though I am not Jewish, than wish me a banal > "Happy Holidays". It means nothing - to me, or to the person saying it. Heidi wrote: Do you really think so? You are, of course, free to feel that it means nothing to you, but why do you presume it means nothing to the person saying it? I'm actually truly curious as to why you feel this way, because when I wish people a Happy Holidays through about six weeks of the year, I *really mean it*. I want them to have a wonderful and happy holiday, whatever they celebrate during those six-ish weeks. I ask, "What are you doing for the holidays," and I am genuinely interested. <> ***Katie again: Well, I actually did write later on in that post that *if* "Happy Holidays" actually means something to the person saying it, that's great and fine. BUT - my point was, it means nothing to me. Why should someone be offended by me wishing them a genuine and heartfelt "Merry Christmas", rather than a lame and PC "Happy Holidays"? If "Happy Holidays" actually means something to you, than it is neither lame nor banal...because there is a meaning and a feeling behind the words. But since I wouls much rather wish someone "Merry Christmas", the words would be empty of meaning if I said "Happy Holidays" instead. That's my real point - if I am wishing you good wishes, cheer, happiness and love...why should it matter that I am saying "Marry Christmas"? It will be obvious to anyone that I mean what I am saying, I am genuinely happy and full of cheer, and as I said, if the response was "Happy Hanukkah" or "Happy Ramadan" - I certainly wouldn't be offended by that, because I would know that person really meant what they were saying and I would appreciate their good wishes for me. I think we're too hung up on the *words*, when what we should be concerned with is the *meaning*. Just my .02, Katie --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sistermagpie at earthlink.net Mon Dec 31 20:54:41 2007 From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 20:54:41 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: <286092.8844.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > ***Katie again: > > > Well, I actually did write later on in that post that *if* "Happy Holidays" actually means something to the person saying it, that's great and fine. BUT - my point was, it means nothing to me. Why should someone be offended by me wishing them a genuine and heartfelt "Merry Christmas", rather than a lame and PC "Happy Holidays"? > > > If "Happy Holidays" actually means something to you, than it is neither lame nor banal...because there is a meaning and a feeling behind the words. But since I wouls much rather wish someone "Merry Christmas", the words would be empty of meaning if I said "Happy Holidays" instead. That's my real point - if I am wishing you good wishes, cheer, happiness and love...why should it matter that I am saying "Marry Christmas"? It will be obvious to anyone that I mean what I am saying, I am genuinely happy and full of cheer, and as I said, if the response was "Happy Hanukkah" or "Happy Ramadan" - I certainly wouldn't be offended by that, because I would know that person really meant what they were saying and I would appreciate their good wishes for me. > > I think we're too hung up on the *words*, when what we should be concerned with is the *meaning*. Just my .02, Katie Magpie: The only thing I would add to that is that the words might not just indicate cheer and joy. It might also mean, to the person hearing them, "You ought to celebrate Christmas!" or "Christmas is what everyone should be celebrating now!" Of course it would be nicer to give the person the benefit of the doubt and just accept the good wishes--I'm sure many people do. But even in this conversation the alternate meaning seems pretty strong too--i.e., We wish Merry Christmas because it's Christmas, dammit! We're the majority and that's what we/I celebrate! In my experience, when people reply with "Happy Hannukkah" or whatever, it's a gentle way of saying not just that they wish you good cheer too, but that they don't celebrate Christmas. They might not be offended or anything, but if they appreciated me not making the assumption that would be why I did it. -m From heidi8 at gmail.com Mon Dec 31 21:19:50 2007 From: heidi8 at gmail.com (Heidi Tandy) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 16:19:50 -0500 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: References: <1199131075.BE1DC14@ff4.dngr.org> Message-ID: <5913e6f80712311319y59527b6bgd2077ff7ebf57347@mail.gmail.com> On Dec 31, 2007 3:28 PM, Carol wrote: > > > Shopping carts full of gifts for people of both sexes and all ages are > clearly not for one person's birthday, and (please correct me if I'm > wron) Hanukkah gifts aren't usually large and expensive as Christmas > gifts tend to be. I will correct you - most Jewish families I know (which, I admit, are mostly Ashkenazi reform/conservative/reconstructionist) do one or two large gifts for the kids, possibly a large gift for the family, and smaller things like clothing, books or small toys. Each family has their own traditions, like some Christian families that open all their gifts on Christmas Eve and others that wait until Christmas Day. And speaking of families, in mine, me, one of my grandmothers-in-law, my mother-in-law and all three of my husband's aunts have birthdays between December 26 and January 21 (my brother-in-law's birthday was also in this time-frame but he passed away last year so this is the second holiday season we haven't shopped for him) and we range in age from nearly 37 to 86, so any of the buys buying for all of us at once would cover all ages. But again, that's very specific to our family; my best friend from college has her birthday and all three of her sons' between Thanksgiving and Christmas so they do Christmas and Birthday shopping in tandem. Ah, the joys of double-dipping in the giftie pool (or not). > Don't kid yourself; the stores are marketing to > Christmas shoppers. Maybe where you live. Not where I live, and not anywhere I've lived. Of course, I have always done the holidays in cities with sizable Jewish populations - Miami, Philly, New York, Washington DC and Los Angeles, so I've always had friends who've participated in celebrations of Chanukah and Christmas (both the Western and Eastern schedules). And now I live in Miami Beach, where New Year's Eve can be the biggest party night of the year - we have at least six fireworks celebrations tonight within five miles of my house. So for me, there really is a list of holidays that are there to be celebrated, enjoyed and partaken of, and I love including all of them in my well-wishes. ***Katie again: <> I'm not sure how you can honestly feel both ways. If your initial presumption is that a Random Person Who Wishes You Happy Holidays is saying so even though it doesn't mean anything to her, then why would you ever know that it means something to her? Why not just initially presume that someone wouldn't say it unless they really mean it? Why do you lean to one conclusion and not the other? <> If it's a friend or someone who you know doesn't celebrate Christmas? Then possibly because you're forgetting or ignoring that they don't celebrate it, which might make them feel that you don't actually care about their religious beliefs. As someone said a few days ago, when it's your birthday you don't wish everyone else a Happy Birthday; people wish it to you. If you are speaking to someone who you know celebrates Christmas (or about whom you can reasonably assume it, like someone buying a Christmas tree or a slew of ornaments or who's wearing a Santa hat or a reindeer sweater) then it's lovely to say. If you're saying it to someone who is, say, wearing a Star of David or a yamulke, or whose basket is full of blue giftwrap, or when you're leaving their Christmas-tree-free household on December 22, then your behaviour is closer to inconsideration than it is to genuine and heartfelt seasonal joy. Could you perhaps, next year, try to assume that when someone wishes you a Happy Holidays, it's genuine and heartfelt, and see if you still find the phrase as disconcerting as it sounds you have in the past? If it's six of one and half a dozen of the other, then what's the harm in doing so? - Heidi [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tonks_op at yahoo.com Mon Dec 31 22:04:20 2007 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 22:04:20 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: OK. Here is what I think the bottom line is in the debate. Some of you live in big cities like New York and there are Jewish people and Wiccan and who ever else has a holiday in December. I see the point of saying "Happy Holiday in a place like that. It makes sense. But for the rest of us in the Midwest or other parts of the coutry where there is not a big population of other religions, or in some cases, no one of any other religion, it is not logical, but people are doing it anyway. And why? Because we are exposed to other ideas on the TV and internet, etc. I just think that you folks in "them, there" big cities don't know how it is out here in Mid_America. ;-) Happy New Year. Tonks_op From Schlobin at aol.com Mon Dec 31 23:08:02 2007 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 23:08:02 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > Christmas trees have become holiday trees; Christmas stamps have > become holiday stamps It seems to me that last time I went to the post office there was a generic Christmas stamp (usually Santa Claus, this year a snowman in the snow? and a bear in the snow?) and a Christian religious stamp, wasn't it last year the Pieta? (Picture of Mary holding the dead Jesus? There's also a Chanukah stamp... Susan From Schlobin at aol.com Mon Dec 31 23:15:50 2007 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 23:15:50 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > However, I was wished "Happy Holidays," not "Merry Christmas," at > every store I shopped at this December, including Safeway, JC Penneys, > Borders Books, Toys R Us, and Radio Shack. I don't know how many of > these stores have actual policies on the subject, but the trend is > unmistakeable. > > Carol, who will look for more links when she has time but notes that a > search for "war on Christmas" will generate plenty of results on both > sides of the issue > Well, what I see is that people were used to being dominant, and their experience, culture and religion being dominant. The Jews, the atheists, the pagans, the Buddhists, etc. were supposed to stay invisible, like being invisible, and not upset the dominant paradigm. It's like when the expectation began that men would do half the housework (if both parents in a mixed gender couple were working outside the home)...men didn't like it at all! Most of them didn't want to give up the privilege of being waited on (even if their spouse was working outside the home). So, I guess it's hard for me to drudge up sympathy for folks who have to give up centuries of privilege. And of course some are "fighting back." They're not fighting a war against Christmas or Christians, they're fighting people in the minority who would like to be visible, acknowledged, and not forced to participate in religious rituals that they don't believe in... Susan From Schlobin at aol.com Mon Dec 31 23:23:24 2007 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 23:23:24 -0000 Subject: coercion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > --- "susanmcgee48176" wrote: > > > > What I object to about boycotts of stores that require their > > employees to say happy holidays rather than Merry Christmas > > (in an effort to be more inclusive....is that it's trying to > > force people to participate in a religious holiday, (or any > > kind of holiday). > > > > Those employees who do not celebrate Christmas - they should > > be forced to say "merry christmas?" People who do not > > celebrate should be forced to listen to "merry christmas" > > in the stores? > > > > bboyminn: > > You almost had me, but I think you took it one step too far. > True, if you do not celebrate Christmas you should not be > force to extend a Christmas-specific greeting to people. But, > the end of the calendar year is a general time of celebration > for everyone. So, it is, the entire month of December a > holiday season. Do you really think the non-Christians are > going to refuse a week off work 'for the holidays' because > the claim they don't celebrate the holidays? I don't think so. > Sorry, but this is a non-sequitur..... > > As to the last part, which I object too, 'people who do not > celebrate should be forced to listen to 'Merry Christmas' in > the store?'. Well, yes, somebody, if fact a majority of people > are celebrating Christmas and a Christmas greeting between > then IS appropriate. Why should the entire country be forced > to conform to the beliefs of a few? Because the idea is to honor diversity, to honor minority opinions and beliefs...not to force the majority celebration of a Christmas holiday down everyone's throats.. > > I mean if I go into a Chinese restaurant on Chinese New Year > and they are celebrating, should I make them stop because I > don't celebrate Chinese New Year? Should I refuse to pay the > 'special' Chinese New Year prices that are part of the > celebrations? Should I refuse the free eggroll and special > Chinese New Year foods, not because I don't like them, but > because I refuse to celebrate the holiday? I don't think so. > Steve, sorry, but I just don't get this. I have no objection to anyone celebrating Christmas, giving discounts on Christmas, selling Christmas foods, whatever... > It is one thing for you to choose to not celebrate certain > holidays, but you really don't have a right to force other > people to stop, and you don't have a right to be immune > or sheltered from knowing a celebrations in going on. That > celebration is a vast vast majority of people exercising > their rights as member of a free and opened country. > But I'm not forcing people to stop. Celebrate away...please cite where I have suggested that people should not celebrate Christmas. What I have been saying is that *I* would not wish someone a religious specific greeting unless I knew that they were of that religion. I think it's common courtesy, and I also think it's part of acknowledging that minorities have rights..that here in the U.S., the ideal is supposed to be that minorities have rights...AND that there is separation of church and state. NOT eradication of celebrations.. > As a minority, you are free not to celebrate, but you are > not free to stop others from doing so. So, yes, you do have > to endure the Christmas Carols, and wishes of Merry Christmas, > because even if you aren't celebrating I am, and whether you > like it or not, I do wish you the happiness and blessings of > the season, even if you are unwilling to take them. > Steve, how can you POSSIBLY be wishing me well, when you are forcing me to acknowledge your religion and culture as dominant? And WHERE have I said that I am unwilling to accept the happiness and blessings OF THE SEASON? Please listen to yourself -- what if I said "Sorry, Steve, but you are going to have to listen to MY religious views and MY religious greetings whether you like it or not!" > > > Susan continues: > > > > What we did in our shelter was similar to what they did in > > a school mentioned...we had decorations and information > > about all holidays, and education about them posted as well. > > We tried to provide support for those who were not > > celebrating any holidays...one of our commons areas was > >"decoration free"...it was all about compromise and trying to > > have respect for all peoples and all beliefs... > > > > Susan > > > > bboyminn: > > This in my opinion is far far more sensible approach. I think > as the USA becomes more diverse, we as the majority citizens > need to make an effort to be more inclusive of the minority > citizens. So, as a community we should make some effort to > acknowledge, and to a certain extent celebrate, all religious > and non-religious holidays of all represented cultures. > > Plus, there is the educational aspect of it. Too many Americans > see themselves as the center of the universe, which usually > gets them into trouble when they travel to foreign countries. > We need to realize that we are part of a grand diversity, > we piece just as valid and important as the other. > > The more we know, the more we grow. > > Steve/bboyminn > From Schlobin at aol.com Mon Dec 31 23:33:07 2007 From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 23:33:07 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > I just think that you folks in "them, there" big cities don't know how > it is out here in Mid_America. ;-) > > Happy New Year. > Tonks_op > Well, I lived in the midwest for 25 years...including 11 years in a very conservative, white, middle class/upper middle class community. We were told that we were the first and only same gender parents to send our children to the schools - but in fact we knew of several other families, and three teachers who were lesbian/gay. There were non-Christians, but they were afraid to be visible because of the way they were treated by the dominant population. I do agree that there are less "different" people in the midwest, probably because it's made so uncomfortable for them (As Del Martin would say p.s. move to a big city). If someone REALLY care about others, and justice, they would be careful to be inclusive ESPECIALLY if there were only one Jew. Or one pagan. Or one practitioner of Islam. Susan