Re: Harry’s fate according to the bookies (more literary spoilers)

[justcarol67]

"Steve" <bboyminn@> wrote:
> 
> > In how many books has the clear hero died in the end?
> 
Eggplant:
> All of the Greek tragedies and most of Shakespeare.

Carol responds:

Those are all plays, not books.
> 
bboyminn:
> > In how many books in which the clear ero was a very young man, has
the hero died in the end? 
> 
Eggplant:
> Romeo and Juliet, not to mention Titanic, the most profitable movie
of all time.

Carol:

But drama is not literature and those plays or films are all tragedies
in one form or another, not Bildungsromans (novels of growing up.)
Look, for one thing, at the time involved in the action of those
plays/films. There's no seven-year period of growing up in the works
you cited. (And "Titanic" may be profitable, but whether it's an
enduring dramatic work, a film classic, has yet to be established).

More spoiler space for people who aren't familiar with classic
literature but don't want it spoiled for them in case they decide to:

S
P
O
I
L
E
R
*
S
P
A
C
E
*
*
*
 The Greek tragedies involve protagonists whos fates are already well
known to the Greeks, usually great and powerful men with a character
flaw (hamartia) that brings them and those around them to destruction.
"Hamlet" is in the same tradition  (the spectators might not have
known that particular story, but they would have recognized the tragic
conventions and seen the hero's death coming from the moment of his
first soliloquy). "Romeo and Juliet" is a romantic comedy altered to
have a tragic ending (and a couple of other deaths, Tybalt's and
Mercutio's, along the way). "Titanic" is romantic tragedy based on a
historical event (and Leonardo DiCaprio's character, Jack, isn't even
the protagonist; Kate Winslett's character, Rose, is, and she survives).

 If you want to give examples of similar works involving the hero's
death, you need to make sure that they're novels, not films or plays,
and that they involve a young protagonist growing up. Otherwise, we're
dealing with apples and oranges. *Of course,* the hero of a tragedy
dies. That's a genre convention. But growing up is a genre convention
in a Bildungsroman (or its variant, the school story).

I'm not saying that's the only genre JKR is working in. There are
elements of the mystery or detective novel (in which, except for the
"death" of Sherlock Holmes, the protagonist doesn't usually die) and
of the heroic quest or epic, in which the hero sometimes triumphs and
sometimes doesn't. I'd say that Harry has more in common with Odysseus
than Achilles, or with Frodo (who doesn't die, regardless of the
implications of the film) than with Sigurd the Volsung. But again, the
elements of myth, legend, saga, and epic are not the primary genre
she's working in. And if we must bring in Joseph Campbell, according
to his paradigm, the hero triumphs, becoming "master of two worlds"
((Wizard and Muggle?) and the result is "freedom to live." I really,
really hope that JKR doesn't push this pattern to far, but we know
she's familiar with it, having mentioned that the hero has to lose his
old mentor and go on alone. But if the pattern holds true, the hero
will both triumph and survive.

So, Eggplant, I'm open to hearing your argument, but only if it
involves something beyond the possibility of a tragic work having
enduring value. That's true, of course, but it isn't really relevant.
And perhaps we should consider her intended audience (specified as
9-12-year-olds in the query letter she submitted to publishers for
PS). I can think of lots of children's books in which a beloved parent
or animal dies, but none offhand in which the protagonist dies. (Well,
I haven't read "A Series of Unfortunate Events" and don't want to know
how that ends!)

Carol, who thinks that "Little Women," in which one of the main
characters dies but the protagonist grows up to become an independent
adult might be at least as close a parallel to the HP model as
"Hamlet" or "Romeo and Juliet," if not closer in some respects