[HPFGU-OTChatter] Harry and Hairy - The Difference.

[Random832]

Steve wrote:
> Once again, since people, especially people in the UK,
> see a distinct difference between Harry and Hairy, I
> looked in my dictionary (Am. Heritage CD-ROM) for the
> difference. I found the difference is roughly the same
> as Sirius and Serious.

Random832:
I think you've got the "as in"'s backwards below:

Steve:
> Hairy is hr'ee. The second letter is a circumflex 'A'.
> As in 'pat'.

Not quite. The "circumflex 'a'" /e/ occurs almost (I can't tihnk of any 
counterexamples) before 'r', and the closest other sound is the "long e" 
/eI/ that occurs in 'pay'.

Steve.
> Harry is har'ee. The second letter is a standard Short
> 'A'. As in 'pay'. 

The vowel in "pay" is no kind of 'short'. The short 'a' (ascii-ipa 
notations differ; xsampa: /{/; erkipa /&/; in true IPA it's an "ae" 
ligature) occurs in "pat". Of course, in some forms of british english 
there may be a hint of the "broad 'a'" (sounds a bit like the vowel in 
"father", but is slightly different. occurs in places the short 'a' 
would occur in other dialects)

> Sirius is sir'ee-es. The second letter is a standard
> short 'I' as in 'pit'. The second to the last letter
> is an inverted 'E' as in 'itEm'. 

> 
> Sirious is sr'ee-es. Second letter circumfles 'I' as
> in 'peir'. Second to the last letter is an inverted
> 'E'.
> 
> Even with this pronunciation clarification. I still see
> the difference as subtle to nonexistent. 
> 
> Other seem to have indicated they said and heard a 
> distinct difference between 'harry' and 'hairy', though
> I simply can't imagine what it could be. 
> 
> Care to elaborate?
> 
> Is it the difference between 'car' and 'air'?

No, it's _exactly_ marry/mary - the distinction doesn't exist at all in 
most american dialects -- including my own, but with my (very limited) 
knowledge of phonology I can fake it and hear the difference.

Read this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English-language_vowel_changes_before_historic_r#Mary-marry-merry_merger

Now, "Hairy" rhymes with "Mary", "Harry" rhymes with "Marry".

/&/ ("ae ligature" in real ipa) is the same vowel as in "mat"
/E/ ("epsilon" in real ipa) is the same vowel as in "met"
that "historical /eI/" is the /e/ i've been talking about, the "normal" 
a-circumflex. Since the sounds are merged, the sounds we actually make 
for all three may be somewhere between the "proper" versions.

> Harr-ee and Hair-ee? 
> 
> Pehaps the problem is that we have reached the limits
> of the extent to which differences can be conveyed in
> printed words or phrases?
> 
> Still, even though we haven't really resolved anything,
> it's been interesting to explore the cultural 
> differences in language.
> 
> I still say in the region I'm in, in common daily
> speech, virtually no one would make any distinction
> between any of the words discussed.

The issue is _different_ with sirius/serious - in that case, it's just 
that sirius has a sound pair that occurs in virtually no other words (I 
challenge anyone to find another listed "short i"-"r" pair), so it's 
unfamiliar if you don't know the specific word, if you hear someone else 
say it you tend to put it down to accent differences (and assume they'd 
say "serious" the same way).

> Steve/bboyminn