12 Grimmauld Place (was Re: Photograph of Grimmauld Square, London)

[Geoff Bannister]

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <bboyminn at ...> wrote:
>
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister"
> <gbannister10@> wrote:
> >
> > ---  "Steve" <bboyminn@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Here is a link to a Google Earth Photograph of Grimmauld
> > > Square in London. I posted it in the Photo section of the
> > > main group, but don't think it would be allowed for 
> > > discussion there.
> > > 
> > > Anyway, here it is. 
> > > 
> > > http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/photos/view/5f1c?b=55
> > > 
> > > This is within walking distance of King's Cross Station.
> > > 
> > > Steve/bboyminn
> > > 
> > > Actually, it is Lons Square just off Liverpool Road in 
> > > Islington in North Central London.
> > 
> > Geoff:
> > I can't find a Lons Square listed in my London ABC or on the 
> > map off Liverpool Road - I think you might mean Lonsdale 
> > Square....
> > 
> > I'm not quite sure why you chose this specific square as a 
> > speculative site for Grimmauld Place. There is also Cloudesley 
> > Square, just south of yours which has a very similar layout and, 
> > personally, I've always tended to argue for one of the various 
> > squares around the Mornington Crescent area, which are also 
> > within walking distance of Euston, St.Pancras and Kings Cross 
> > railway stations and would fit the required parameters just as
> > well.
> >
> 
> bboyminn:
> 
> Right, Lonsdale...it's abbreviated on my map. 
> 
> Initially, I took a map of London and drew a circle of about
> a 1 mile radius. I suspect it took 20 minutes to walk from
> Grimmauld Square to King's Cross Station. Within that circle
> I looked for anything that could pass as Grimmauld Square.

<snip>

> My conditions were that -
> 
> - it couldn't be on a main road or a through street. It
> had to be somewhat secluded.
> - it has to be reasonably small. 
> - the houses must surround a public square. Some squares are
> more like a closed off courtyards surrounded by houses. 

<snip>

> Morning Crescent is just south of Camden Town and Northwest
> of Euston station. 
> 
> Cloudesley Square is possible, but it has a huge building
> of some type taking up most of the center of the square and
> that doesn't quite seem consistent with the story. 
> Cloudesley Square is straight south of and connected by
> road to Lonsdale Square.
> 
> Personally, I always picture Grimmauld Square as vaguely
> similar to a cul-de-sac, meaning that it was a square of 
> houses with a small park-like area in the middle, and only
> ONE entrances to the square. But I couldn't find anything
> that exactly fit my vision. 

<snip>

> Your suggestion of Mornington Crescent, London, NW1 is near
> Regents Park which would make it about a 5 or 10 minute walk
> to the station. That seems too close based on my 
> interpretation of how long it took in the book. 
> 
> Realistically, the place doesn't exist, but within the 
> available geography, I think Lonsdale Square fits the
> best.

Geoff:
Fisrt, this topic has been discussed quite exhaustively on 
Main at least three times, so it might be worthwhile reading 
up these threads just to get up to speed.

The oldest thread I believe is "Tube clues to the whereabouts 
of Grimmauld Place" which started at post 83992 on 02/11/2003.

Then there was "New Maps added to 'Speculative Geography' 
LINKS" which Steve, in a different incarnation as asian_lovr2 
started and I picked up on the GP clues in particular at message 
108130 on 29/07/2004.

And the third was "Way OT: 12 Grimmauld Place Appearance" 
which started on 25/10/2005 at post 142096 - although this 
latter theme was more about what sort of house we were
dealing with....

Moving on, just for completeness, the centre of Cloudesley 
Square is occupied by a church. If GP conforms to the usual 
pattern of a London square, it isn't a cul-de-sac. It is likely 
to have a central section of some description with the road 
going round it with three or four entry points.

May I also point out that I have always referred to the 
Mornington Crescent AREA, not just the road itself. Regent's 
Park is a very large park and this area is a little way off on 
the north-east corner.

If I might refer to canon:
'Mr.Weasley kept his hand inside his jacket as they walked. 
Harry knew it was clenched around his wand. The run-down 
streets were almost deserted but when they arrived at the 
miserable little underground station they found it already 
full of early-morning commuters....

....Mr.Weasley kept anxiously checking and re-checking the 
Underground Map above the windows.
"Four more stops, Harry.... Three stops left now....  Two 
stops to go, Harry...."'
(OOTP "The Ministry of Magic" pp.114/15 UK edition)

and again:
'But the great black dog gave a joyful bark and gambolled 
around them, snapping at pigeons and chasing its own tail. 
Harry couldn't help laughing. Sirius had been trapped inside 
for a very long time. Mrs. Weasley pursed her lips in an 
almost Aunt Petunia-ish way.

It took them twenty minutes to reach Kings Cross on foot 
and nothing more eventful happened during that time than 
Sirius scaring a couple of cats for Harry's entertainment.'
(OOTP "Luna Lovegood" p.165 UK edition)

Why have I quoted these two extracts? First, because I 
suggested in one of the threads which I mentioned above 
that I have a theory that the Ministry of Magic  is situated 
in central London in the area where most of the Muggle 
ministry buildings are - in the area around Whitehall.

Mr. Weasley's comments  in the section above suggest that 
he began counting after the train had started. From Mornington 
Crescent - which was at one point in time a rather grotty station 
only open at rush-hours - six or seven stations on the Northern 
Line would bring you to either Charing Cross or Embankment 
stations, both well-placed for Whitehall.

The area from Mornington Crescent running southwards towards 
either Euston or Kings Cross railway stations is through a warren 
of run-down little streets between Eversholt Street and Pancras 
Road often with railway overbridges because of the network of 
railway lines here. They would be quiet and fairly empty on the 
way to go to the Hogwarts Express and would allow Sirius the 
freedom to run around.

>From the Lonsdale Square location, the nearest Tube station is 
Highbury & Islington to the north on the Victoria line which 
would take them towards Victoria and would then involve a 
long walk to where I think the MoM building might be - 
unless they changed lines which canon doesn't suggest. 
Alternatively, they could walk south to Angel station on the 
Northern but they would have to go in the wrong direction to 
Kings Cross for a southbound train to the central area, again 
not suggested in canon. Also, on the day they walked to Kings 
Cross, it would be difficult to get through using side streets 
quiet enough for Sirius to fool around in; they would most 
probably finish up walking down at least part of Pentonville 
Road from the Angel direction which is very busy and not 
particularly pleasant to walk along in the rush-hour.

Finally, to draw on personal experience. I have been for many 
years a rail enthusiast and, when I was younger, I frequently 
travelled north out of Euston and again when my eldest son 
was living in north-west London in the early 2000s. As you 
leave Euston, there are very obviously many roads on the 
east side of the line just outside the station which fit the 
description of Grimmauld Place; scruffy, three or four storey 
terrace houses which had once been genteel residences now 
reduced to apartments or bed-sits and not cared for.

I think it was Steve who remarked at one point that we can 
only speculate on the position of Grimmauld Place. I base 
my theories on having lived and travelled widely within 
London over a 45 year period prior to my moving to the 
West Country some years ago. We may all be totally wrong 
but analysing the clues and drawing our own conclusions 
and sharing them is great fun.... I hope!
:-)