Being an eight

[susanmcgee48176]

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> 
wrote:
>
>> 
> Carol responds:
> 
> No flames, but I don't think that the view of men and women as
> instrinsically different (in general--there are always exceptions) 
is
> prejudice. I used to believe (in the Seventies!) that unisex 
clothing,
> names, education, and, especially, toys, would eradicate the
> differences between boys and girls and they would all just be
> children, free to be themselves. IOW, I thought that all the
> differences in behavior and attitude that we generally see between
> boys and girls (for example, a preference in girls for dolls, 
clothes,
> and make-up and in boys for cars, guns, and, these days, violent 
video
> games) were *all* the product of cultural conditioning.

I maintain that most of them are the result of cultural conditioning.
Those very few people who gave their children all the options could 
not protect their children from every other influence which 
reinforced rigid gender roles.
For example, all little girls you know, like pink? Right? And all the 
little boys want grey and brown and black? 
Is that culturally conditioned?
If it isn't, why is it that 100 years ago, it was boys wore pink and 
girls blue? And that men in other times and cultures had beautifully 
gorgeous and colorful clothing?



> 
> And, certainly, cultural conditioning does play a role. Just walk 
into
> any toy store or watch commercials geared to girls as opposed to 
those
> geared to boys. But my exposure to both boys and girls from infancy
> through the teenage years, and to men, has changed my mind. I don't
> mean that a girl *has* to like clothes and make-up. I almost never
> wear make-up, I wear my hair straight and long (it's almost as long 
as
> Dumbledore's; I'll give in and get a haircut soon since I'm tired of
> being strangled by my own hair in my sleep), and I wouldn't be 
caught
> dead in spike heels or pointed-toe shoes. But I don't like violence 
or
> obscenity or sports. I like quiet activities--reading, writing,
> conversation, trivia games, etc. The men I know, even the
> intellectuals, have different tastes and a different sense of humor
> (cruder, more appreciative of violence). There's something about 
that
> Y chromosome (a broken X!!--no offense intended, but that's how the
> mutation arose) that makes men and boys different. 

We must know different men and boys. I know a bunch of boys and men --
 gay and straight and everything between - who don't have different 
tastes or senses of humor



Boys (in general)
> mature later than girls both physically and emotionally. 

Agree...


> 
> That's not to say that we shouldn't do what we can to, say, avoid
> creating or feeding an appetite for violence in boys and at the same
> time, discouraging girls from focusing too much on their looks.
> (Anorexia seldom occurs in boys, though bulimia does. Henry VIII and
> his grandfather Edward IV were both bulimic, IIRC.)
> 
> But it isn't prejudice to see boys and girls as different. I don't
> know any teenage boys who take an hour to put on their make-up in 
the
> morning or any teenage girls who are obsessed with Doom 3 or 
whatever
> the latest violent video game is. And their tastes in TV and movies
> vary as well.

Well, of course, there are some girls who do love Doom and boys who 
WOULD like to wear makeup. But most of them find out very quickly..if 
they are boys, and want to do nails or anything girlish, that they 
will be taunted, ridiculed, teased, and ostracized. There are studies 
that show that there are physical assaults on boys who are perceived 
to be "gay" because they don't like sterotypically male stuff..so of 
course all the kids try to behave in the way that will get them 
accepted by their friends.....and not teased, ridiculed, assaulted, 
etc.


> 
> For that reason, books like the Harry Potter series, by a female
> author but with a male protagonist and therefore likely to be read 
by
> children and adolescents of both sexes are a good thing.
> Fundamentally, and I think that you and I agree here, Susan, boys 
and
> girls are people first, male or female second.
> 
> I do believe in encouraging children to be individuals, whether 
it's a
> boy who wants to read "Little Women" or a girl who wants to play 
with
> cars. And I do believe in discouraging violence, consumerism,
> selfishness, and whatever else can lead kids down the wrong path. 
But
> it's not easy. JKR is right, IMO, in depicting boys as hexing each
> other in the hallways and girls as contenting themselves with snide
> remarks (like Pansy Parkinson's comments on Hermione's looks).
> 
> Boys *are* different from girls and men from women, and sometimes 
it's
> hard to relate to the opposite sex. Part of that results from 
cultural
> conditioning, a different set of values for boys and girls (still 
true
> today just as it was in medieval times or the nineteenth century), 
but
> some of it is genetic. And, once the child hits puberty, you have
> hormones as well as chromosomes to contend with.
> 
> I think that even if we could somehow remove false conceptions of
> masculinity and femininity (which might involve moving to North
> Labrador), most of them would still develop "masculine" 
or "feminine"
> interests on their own because their brains are programmed 
differently.
> 
> Carol, asking people please not to flame her for holding opinions
> based on her personal experience with people of both sexes
>


But my original objection to the joke was that it put men down..I 
object to all jokes that are disparaging towards men or women....

Susan