From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Tue Jan  1 00:54:06 2008
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2008 00:54:06 -0000
Subject: coercion
In-Reply-To: <flbtlc+utb8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <flc2ve+sgce@eGroups.com>

---  "susanmcgee48176" <Schlobin at ...> wrote:
>
> ---  "Steve" <bboyminn@> wrote:
> >
> > ---  "susanmcgee48176" <Schlobin@> wrote:
> > >
> > > What I object to about boycotts of stores that require their
> > > employees to say happy holidays rather than Merry Christmas
> > > (in an effort to be more inclusive....is that it's trying to
> > > force people to participate in a religious holiday, (or any
> > > kind of holiday).
> > > 
> > > Those employees who do not celebrate Christmas - they should
> > > be forced to say "merry christmas?" People who do not 
> > > celebrate should be forced to listen to "merry christmas" 
> > > in the stores?
> > > 
> > 
> > bboyminn:
> > 
> > You almost had me, but I think you took it one step too far.
> > True, if you do not celebrate Christmas you should not be 
> > force to extend a Christmas-specific greeting to people. But,
> > the end of the calendar year is a general time of celebration
> > for everyone. So, it is, the entire month of December a
> > holiday season. Do you really think the non-Christians are
> > going to refuse a week off work 'for the holidays' because
> > the claim they don't celebrate the holidays? I don't think so.
> >

> Susan:
> Sorry, but this is a non-sequitur.....
> 

bboyminn:

I'm assuming you are referring to the last part about 'time
off' from work. My point is, you are refusing the season. 
That is, you don't want to go through the Christmas season
confronted with Christmas expressions that acknowledge that
very real and undeniable season, but, and this is
my point, you are denying the annoyances, but are you 
accepting the benefits? 

You shouldn't really be able to have it both ways. You
shouldn't be able to go through a society sanitized of
Christmas, while at the same time reaping the benefits of
the very same holiday.

> 
> > bboyminn:
> > 
> > As to the last part, which I object too, 'people who do 
> > not celebrate should be forced to listen to 'Merry 
> > Christmas' in the store?'. Well, yes, somebody, if fact a
> > majority of people are celebrating Christmas and a 
> > Christmas greeting between then IS appropriate. Why should
> > the entire country be forced to conform to the beliefs of 
> > a few? 

> Susan:
> 
> Because the idea is to honor diversity, to honor minority 
> opinions and beliefs...not to force the majority celebration
> of a Christmas holiday down everyone's throats..
> 
> 

bboyminn:

I'm more than willing to honor diversity by acknowledging
secular and non-secular holidays of diverse minorities.
Happy Cinco De Mayo to you. But accepting minorities
doesn't and shouldn't mean rejecting the vast majority.

> > bboyminn:
> >
> > I mean if I go into a Chinese restaurant on Chinese New Year
> > and they are celebrating, should I make them stop because I
> > don't celebrate Chinese New Year? Should I refuse to pay the
> > 'special' Chinese New Year prices that are part of the
> > celebrations? Should I refuse the free eggroll and special
> > Chinese New Year foods, not because I don't like them, but
> > because I refuse to celebrate the holiday? I don't think so. 
> > 

> Susan:
> 
> Steve, sorry, but I just don't get this. I have no objection
> to anyone celebrating Christmas, giving discounts on Christmas,
> selling Christmas foods, whatever...
> 

bboyminn:

But you implied that you objected to seeing and hearing
references to Christmas when you yourself don't celebrate it.
How can you be insulated from Christmas in any practical
way unless others stop celebrating it?

> >bboyminn:
> >
> > It is one thing for you to choose to not celebrate certain
> > holidays, but you really don't have a right to force other
> > people to stop, and you don't have a right to be immune
> > or sheltered from knowing a celebrations in going on. That
> > celebration is a vast vast majority of people exercising 
> > their rights as member of a free and opened country.
> >

> Susan:
> 
> But I'm not forcing people to stop. Celebrate away.......
> What I have been saying is that *I* would not wish someone
> a religious specific greeting unless I knew that they were 
> of that religion. 

bboyminn:

But what are the odds? In a country that is vastly Christian,
the odds, especially where I live, are very thin that someone
would not be Christian or a least understand the season. 

The odds of saying Merry Christian are astronomically in favor
of the person being a Christian or at least someone celebrating
a secular Christmas. Still, it would be ridiculous to wish
Merry Christmas to someone who clearly was not a Christian. 

I'm not saying that everyone must say and accept a greeting of
Merry Christmas, I'm all for mixing it up, if nothing else
just to break the monotony. Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays,
Season Greetings, Blessings of the Season, and whatever else 
you can think of.

The only objections to Merry Christmas that I would have is
that it gets so overused as to lose all meaning. Once you've
been wished Merry Christmas for the thousandth time in one 
day, it just turns in to so much 'blah blah blah'. 


> Susan:
>
> I think it's common courtesy, and I also think it's part of 
> acknowledging that minorities have rights ..that here in the
> U.S., the ideal is supposed to be that minorities have 
> rights...AND that there is separation of church and state. 
> NOT eradication of celebrations..
> 

bboyminn:

There is a difference between separation of Church and State,
and a separation of Church and Walmart. I'm all for the
encompassing and embracing of all minority cultures and the
celebrations that go with them. What I am against, is the
idea that the majority should cease to exist in order to
accommodate the minority. The minority DOES HAVE right, it
has the /same/ rights as the majority.

> > bboyminn:
>  
> > As a minority, you are free not to celebrate, but you are
> > not free to stop others from doing so. ...
> > 

> Susan:
> 
> Steve, how can you POSSIBLY be wishing me well, when you are
> forcing me to acknowledge your religion and culture as 
> dominant?

bboyminn:

Well, like it or not, MY Culture is dominant. Again, I'm all
for embracing the culture of others, I think it expands us
as a community and as a people. But I'm not going to stop
being who I am and doing what I do to please some minority.

This should be an additive process, not a subtractive one.


> Susan:
>
> Please listen to yourself -- what if I said "Sorry, Steve, 
> but you are going to have to listen to MY religious views 
> and MY religious greetings whether you like it or not!"
> 
> 

bboyminn:

I'd say, pull up a chair, have a cup of coffee and a slice
of pie and let's talk. 

I'm very interested in the culture and religion of other
people, I would welcome the discussion, I would embrace the
celebration. 

To the basic point, I certainly would not wish the local
and clearly Jewish community a Merry Christmas because I
understand that they don't believe in the Christ the same
way I do. If I saw someone that looked like they might be
Muslim or Hindi or Buddhist, I would likely change my
greeting accordingly. Or I might just wish them Merry
Christmas under the understanding that it is /I/ who am
celebrating a season. Really, I would try to be sensitive.

But again, I don't think I should be forbidden to offer a 
Merry Christmas to people, within reasonable bounds of
sensitivity. At the same time, I don't think I should be
forced, say by an employer to only offer either Merry
Christmas.

I say to each his own, all comers accepted. 

If someone expressed or appeared uncomfortable by my 
greeting, I would apologies and try to alter it to alternate
that I thought was more appropriate. I'm not completely 
insensitive you know.

That's about all I can say. 

Steve/bboyminn




From Schlobin at aol.com  Tue Jan  1 01:00:07 2008
From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176)
Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2008 01:00:07 -0000
Subject: coercion
In-Reply-To: <flc2ve+sgce@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <flc3an+ko24@eGroups.com>

> 
> bboyminn:
> 
> I'm assuming you are referring to the last part about 'time
> off' from work. My point is, you are refusing the season. 
> That is, you don't want to go through the Christmas season
> confronted with Christmas expressions that acknowledge that
> very real and undeniable season, but, and this is
> my point, you are denying the annoyances, but are you 
> accepting the benefits? 
>

Except, uh, shouldn't I get time off for my religious holidays? Or 
equal time off as other employees?

 
>> bboyminn:
> 
> But you implied that you objected to seeing and hearing
> references to Christmas when you yourself don't celebrate it.
> How can you be insulated from Christmas in any practical
> way unless others stop celebrating it?
> 

Where did I imply it? And by the way, as I said a while back, I do 
celebrate Christmas.


>> bboyminn:
> 
> Well, like it or not, MY Culture is dominant. 


Well, I guess that says it all. YOUR culture is dominant, so never 
mind the needs, desires, of the minority.

And, I don't like it.. I don't like dominance..of any kind.

Susan




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Tue Jan  1 04:08:08 2008
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2008 04:08:08 -0000
Subject: church humor wasRe: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"?
In-Reply-To: <flb2pj+ka3m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <flceb8+4v3h@eGroups.com>


> Geoff:

 And especially at 
> Christmas, large numbers of poeple will turn out for the special 
services - Carols by Candlelight, Christmas Eve midnight service, 
Christmas morning worship - and will pay nominal lip service to being 
Christians for just those few occasions.

Potioncat:
In our area, those who come to church only at Christmas and Easter are 
called "Holly and Lily Christians." And our pastor says we should not 
begrudge them our usual pew spots, since they only come twice a year, 
it's important that they get good seats.






From willsonkmom at msn.com  Tue Jan  1 04:23:22 2008
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2008 04:23:22 -0000
Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? (long)
In-Reply-To: <flbi92+ho6h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <flcf7q+n8eh@eGroups.com>


> 
> Magpie:
> Or baptists who insist weddings can't have any liquor because their 
> sect doesn't drink.

Potioncat:
Well, I wouldn't expect alcohol at a Baptist wedding. It was lots of 
fun planning a wedding when most of my side were non-drinkers (from a 
religious standpoint), and all of my in-laws side expected wine at 
weddings. 

Magpie:
 If kids are fasting for any religious reason, it's not the job 
> of the society at large to fast. The point is that they're going 
> without, so having food for other people isn't being insensitive to 
> their needs. It's supposed to be hard to fast and non-Muslims 
aren't supposed to be doing it for Ramadan.

Potioncat:
I think what was decided, was that each class would plan a party 
based on the class makeup. This was a grade school K--6, and really 
only the older grades were affected.

The real intent was to make all the children feel comfortable. 

> 
> As opposed to the Walmart change in greeting despite the "majority" 
of 
> its customers being Christians--the key word there being majority. 
They 
> idea being that it's really bad for a Chrsitmas-celebrator to 
> get "happy holidays" that includes Christmas but doesn't priviledge 
it, 
> but a non-Christmas celebrator should naturally be fine being 
greeted 
> with Merry Christmas. If Walmart had changed their greeting to only 
> Happy Hannukkah throughout the whole holiday season, I admit I 
don't 
> think that would be considered acceptable by the same people. In 
fact, 
> I think it would be considered just as much of a War on Christmas--
> while the Merry Christmas isn't a "War on Hannukkah" or whatever 
> because Christians are the majority.
> 
> -m
>





From gwharrison53 at yahoo.com  Tue Jan  1 04:48:16 2008
From: gwharrison53 at yahoo.com (gwharrison53 at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 20:48:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: 2008 ^ Happy New Year !
Message-ID: <200801010448.m014mKSa030088@upsa-web106.ofoto.com>

	 

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From marion11111 at yahoo.com  Tue Jan  1 05:17:30 2008
From: marion11111 at yahoo.com (marion11111)
Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2008 05:17:30 -0000
Subject: coercion
In-Reply-To: <flc2ve+sgce@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <flcida+v9h7@eGroups.com>


> bboyminn:
> If I saw someone that looked like they might be
> Muslim or Hindi or Buddhist, I would likely change my
> greeting accordingly. Or I might just wish them Merry
> Christmas under the understanding that it is /I/ who am
> celebrating a season. Really, I would try to be sensitive.
> 

marion11111:
OK, now I have to post here.  Other than a Muslim woman wearing a hijab or a Jewish man 
wearing yarmulke, how would you decide that someone "looks" like they might belong to a 
religion other than Christian?  You are coming very close to suggesting that any immigrant or 
person of color is more likely to be non-Christian.  




From doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com  Tue Jan  1 06:53:57 2008
From: doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com (doddiemoemoe)
Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2008 06:53:57 -0000
Subject: coercion
In-Reply-To: <flb8al+9o0h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <flco25+pvnr@eGroups.com>

 "susanmcgee48176"  wrote:
>
> What I object to about boycotts of stores that require their 
employees 
> to say happy holidays rather than Merry Christmas (in an effort to 
be 
> more inclusive....is that it's trying to force people to participate 
> in a religious holiday, (or any kind of holiday).
> 
big snip:
Doddie here: 

What bothers me about it all is that all of it is simply a huge ploy 
to make us slaves to the ad man..

I loathe commercials so, I am a remote control freak, not so much 
because I want all to watch what I want to, but because I don't like 
watching commercials...(so there we are watching a show..and when it's 
commercial time...I change the channel)...

I could care less about what the stores I shop at say to me, as long 
as it is not some sort of insult...which would be sad on their part..
(truly I don't want to make folks cry over the holidays..)

When news networks make an issue about what holiday greeting to give, 
it's like watching an entire show of commercials, which is exactly 
what I loathe..

I'm happy to wish or receive any greet from anyone checking my 
merchandise a "Merry Christmas, Happy Haunakauh, Happy Kwanza or Happy 
kentucky day.. whatever"..if they don't return my greet, of, if I 
don't return theirs fine, who cares! 

 However, if they deem to insult me and mine I may give them an 
extremely loud insult that they and bystanders are not likely to 
forget..

Believe you me, if I don't like commercials in my home, the last thing 
I want is one during my shopping experience..bad enough during holiday 
shopping season..I'd be happy with a please, thank-you, how may I, 
etc. etc..

 I do hate 'holiday shopping', but I do it...by the time I get to the 
counter and am finally checked out; I wouldn't care if they were 
wishing me a happy wiping on my next poo, as long as I'm checked out 
and no longer in line..

I only wish they'd do a news story about the increasing amoung of time 
it takes to get through the check stand....then maybe perhaps we may 
begin to see changes in our educational system...well...maybe...and 
probably not for the best..

Doddiemoe,
who wishes all a happy new year and encourages all, not to boycott 
stores, just the clerks LOL 2008--make it personal LOL)






From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Tue Jan  1 07:48:38 2008
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2008 07:48:38 -0000
Subject: coercion
In-Reply-To: <flcida+v9h7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <flcr8m+2i99@eGroups.com>

---  "marion11111" <marion11111 at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> > bboyminn:
> > If I saw someone that looked like they might be
> > Muslim or Hindi or Buddhist, I would likely change my
> > greeting accordingly. .... Really, I would try to be 
> > sensitive.
> > 
> 
> marion11111:
> OK, now I have to post here.  Other than a Muslim woman 
> wearing a hijab or a Jewish man wearing yarmulke, how would
> you decide that someone "looks" like they might belong to a 
> religion other than Christian?  You are coming very close to
> suggesting that any immigrant or person of color is more 
> likely to be non-Christian.
>

bboyminn:

Well, you have to understand that I live in a community that
is very homogeneous. Still we do have a large group of Jewish
people nearby, and YES, it is very easy to tell that they
are Jewish. 

As far as suggesting that immigrants or people of color are
more likely to be non-Christian, well...isn't that true?
Aren't people from the Middle East, Pakistan, India, and
most of Asia with the exception of Korea really more likely
to be non-Christian? It is not a question of racism, it is
just a fact of life.

Aren't people of Spanish/American decent, more likely to 
be Catholic? Again, that's not racism, that is a statistical
fact of life. 

Still, it doesn't guarantee they are of a particular religion,
only that they are more likely to be of a particular religion.

And, keep in mind that if I suspect they are of a non-Christian
religion, all I have to do is substitute a more generic 
seasons greeting. I don't have to guess their religion and
respond with a greeting appropriate to their religion, I 
only have to give a generic non-Christian holiday greeting.

So, where's the problem.

Steve/bboyminn




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Tue Jan  1 17:32:45 2008
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2008 17:32:45 -0000
Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"?
In-Reply-To: <flbh10+m0o9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fldtft+r4bh@eGroups.com>

> >
> Carol responds:

> However, I was wished "Happy Holidays," not "Merry Christmas," at
> every store I shopped at this December, including Safeway, JC Penneys,
> Borders Books, Toys R Us, and Radio Shack. I don't know how many of
> these stores have actual policies on the subject, but the trend is
> unmistakeable.
>

Pippin:
I don't mind strangers wishing me a Merry Christmas out of personal
conviction, and most people can't  guess my ethnicity from my looks
much less my religion. In my mixed family, I help my husband 
celebrate Christmas, and he helps me celebrate Channukah. It isn't
everyone's answer to what Jews call "the December Dilemma" but
it works for us. 

OTOH, if huge, publicly-held corporations want to offer me good wishes 
on behalf of their stockholders and employees, numbers of whom are not 
Christian, it seems to me appropriate that they be inclusive.


Pippin
wishing a Happy New Year to all and reminded of Gandalf's riff on 
"Good morning" (from memory, What do you mean good morning? 
Do you wish me a good morning whether I want one or not, or do you 
mean that you feel good this morning, or that it is a morning to be good 
on?) 




From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Tue Jan  1 18:19:20 2008
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2008 18:19:20 -0000
Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"? (long)
In-Reply-To: <flcf7q+n8eh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fle078+jja7@eGroups.com>

> > Magpie:
> > Or baptists who insist weddings can't have any liquor because 
their 
> > sect doesn't drink.
> 
> Potioncat:
> Well, I wouldn't expect alcohol at a Baptist wedding. It was lots 
of 
> fun planning a wedding when most of my side were non-drinkers (from 
a 
> religious standpoint), and all of my in-laws side expected wine at 
> weddings. 

Magpie:
Sorry, I wasn't clear. I didn't mean at a Baptist wedding--I wouldn't 
expect that either. They naturally wouldn't want liquor served at 
their own wedding. But I've known people who thought weddings of non-
Baptist family members should be dry because there's one member of 
the family or one friend who is Baptist. What you're describing 
sounds far more reasonable--you provide stuff for the guests that are 
coming whose different tastes you know.
 




From macloudt at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Jan  1 18:52:55 2008
From: macloudt at yahoo.co.uk (Mary Ann)
Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2008 18:52:55 -0000
Subject: church humour and Christmas/holiday plays
In-Reply-To: <flceb8+4v3h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fle267+s9v3@eGroups.com>

Potioncat wrote:

> In our area, those who come to church only at Christmas and Easter 
are 
> called "Holly and Lily Christians." And our pastor says we should not 
> begrudge them our usual pew spots, since they only come twice a year, 
> it's important that they get good seats.

Our old family church in Toronto used to call them "twice-a-year 
Catholics", and these people received a stern talking-to from the 
priest.  They also provided fun distractions for bored stiff teenagers 
as these twice-a-year folk didn't know when to sit, kneel or stand.  
Yes, I was that bored during mass. :D  A British priest I knew referred 
to these folks as Submarine Catholics as they only surface twice a 
year.  I love this phrase, lapsed Catholic that I am.

Do other religions have such terms for infrequent worshippers?  Just 
curious.

Several of you have mentioned holiday concerts taking place at schools, 
but I'm curious what your children's schools do in terms of, for lack 
of a better term, Christmas/holiday plays.  We live in Exeter, a small 
city in the southwest of England.  My kids' school is non-
denominational and there were no non-British-descent kids in the school 
until less than 3 years ago.  All the same, the school does not put on 
nativity plays**; it puts on what it calls Christmas plays.  Several of 
these plays that I've sat through over the years (note that I didn't 
say "enjoyed over the years", because I'm honest and a complete and 
utter Scrooge at times ;) ) made some watered-down references to the 
birth of Jesus, which annoys me to no end.  I'm a practicing Christian 
and have no problem with non-faith schools not putting on a traditional 
nativity--in fact, I applaud it--but these weak-kneed references 
mentioned above seem like a PC-inspired cop-out to me.  IMO It should 
be all or nothing.  This year both the plays I saw made no nativity 
references, which pleased me, even though one of the plays was based on 
the song The Twelve Days of Christmas, which I loathe (have I mentioned 
that I'm a Scrooge at times?).  However, everyone forgot their lines, 
no one was in the right place at the right time, and none of the 
performers could stop giggling, and that's my kind of school play!  

What have your experiences been?


**IMO traditional nativity plays have special rules which must be 
followed or I'll become all Scrooge-like again:

1)  No participant may be taller than 3 1/2 feet.

2)  No participant may be allowed to spell any word more complicated 
than "cat".  If the participant cannot spell his or her own name, so 
much the better.

3)  Every shepherd must be wearing a bathrobe and a tea towel on 
his/her head.  Bonus points if the tea towel is a souvenir one from a 
seaside town.  Scruffy trainers, preferably with Spider Man on them, 
sticking out from under the bathrobes are also a must.

4)  Under no circumstances must any of the Wise Men, who must all sport 
cardboard crowns covered in aluminum foil, be able to actually 
pronounce the word "frankinscence".

5)  Waving to parents and grandparents by participants is strongly 
encouraged, as is at least half a dozen proud grandmothers 
shouting "Ooh, there's our Kevin!" in voices so loud that they 
overpower whatever is being said on stage.

6)  Participants who are not waving to parents and grandparents must 
spend the entire play staring into space and not having a clue as to 
what is going on.

7)  Very strong coffee must be made available for the adults trying 
desparately to keep order over their little charges during the whole 
charade.  Alcohol must be served to these same adults once the play is 
over and all the little darlings have gone home (ask me how I know 
this).

Mary Ann, who lives for preschool nativity plays




From bhobbs36 at verizon.net  Tue Jan  1 19:15:51 2008
From: bhobbs36 at verizon.net (Belinda)
Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2008 19:15:51 -0000
Subject: church humour and Christmas/holiday plays
In-Reply-To: <fle267+s9v3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fle3h7+963l@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Mary Ann" <macloudt at ...> 
wrote:
>
> Potioncat wrote:
> 
<snip> 

> **IMO traditional nativity plays have special rules which must be 
> followed or I'll become all Scrooge-like again:
> 
> 1)  No participant may be taller than 3 1/2 feet.
> 
> 2)  No participant may be allowed to spell any word more 
complicated 
> than "cat".  If the participant cannot spell his or her own name, 
so 
> much the better.
> 
> 3)  Every shepherd must be wearing a bathrobe and a tea towel on 
> his/her head.  Bonus points if the tea towel is a souvenir one from 
a 
> seaside town.  Scruffy trainers, preferably with Spider Man on 
them, 
> sticking out from under the bathrobes are also a must.
> 
> 4)  Under no circumstances must any of the Wise Men, who must all 
sport 
> cardboard crowns covered in aluminum foil, be able to actually 
> pronounce the word "frankinscence".
> 
> 5)  Waving to parents and grandparents by participants is strongly 
> encouraged, as is at least half a dozen proud grandmothers 
> shouting "Ooh, there's our Kevin!" in voices so loud that they 
> overpower whatever is being said on stage.
> 
> 6)  Participants who are not waving to parents and grandparents 
must 
> spend the entire play staring into space and not having a clue as 
to 
> what is going on.
> 
> 7)  Very strong coffee must be made available for the adults trying 
> desparately to keep order over their little charges during the 
whole 
> charade.  Alcohol must be served to these same adults once the play 
is 
> over and all the little darlings have gone home (ask me how I know 
> this).
> 
> Mary Ann, who lives for preschool nativity plays
>

Belinda:
LOL Mary Ann this is precious! May I add?

8) Mary must forget that the doll she's holding is supposed to be a 
real baby. Better yet, she should forget she's holding anything, and 
let it dangle by its swaddlings.

9) All the stable animals shall compete to make their noises the 
loudest.

10) Angel's halos should be attached so that they slowly slip 
sideways throughout the play.  Wings too.




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Jan  1 20:19:10 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2008 20:19:10 -0000
Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"?
In-Reply-To: <5913e6f80712311319y59527b6bgd2077ff7ebf57347@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <fle77u+u9jc@eGroups.com>

Heidi:
> 
> If it's a friend or someone who you know doesn't celebrate
Christmas? Then possibly because you're forgetting or ignoring that
they don't celebrate it, which might make them feel that you don't
actually care about their religious beliefs.
> As someone said a few days ago, when it's your birthday you don't
wish everyone else a Happy Birthday; people wish it to you. If you are
speaking to someone who you know celebrates Christmas (or about whom
you can reasonably assume it, like someone buying a Christmas tree or
a slew of ornaments or who's wearing a Santa hat or a reindeer
sweater) then it's lovely to say. If you're saying it to someone who
is, say, wearing a Star of David or a yamulke, or whose basket is full
of blue giftwrap, or when you're leaving their Christmas-tree-free
household on December 22, then your behaviour is closer to
inconsideration than it is to genuine and heartfelt seasonal joy.
> Could you perhaps, next year, try to assume that when someone wishes
you a Happy Holidays, it's genuine and heartfelt, and see if you still
find the phrase as disconcerting as it sounds you have in the past? If
it's six of one and half a dozen of the other, then what's the harm in
doing so?

Carol responds:
"Happy holidays" from a store employee is about as genuine and
heartfelt as "Have a nice day." It's something the clerks are
programmed to say.

No one with a grain of sense would wish a person wearing a yamulke or
Star of David a Merry Christmas, any more than they'd wish a person
wearing a crucifix or a cross a Happy Hanukkah. It makes sense,
however, to wish a person wearing one or the other the appropriate
good wishes during the particular holiday. But when Hanukkah is over
and it's not yet Christmas, it's likely that people buying a lot of
gifts are Christmas shopping. And if that happens not to buy the case
and someone makes the logical assumption that we're buying Christmas
presents when we're not and wishes us a Merry Christmas, there's no
more need to get upset than when someone wishes a middle-aged woman a
happy Mother's Day on the assumption that she's a mother. Would you
get all huffy and say, "I don't have any kids, you moron?" or "How
dare you assume that I'm a mother just because other women my age have
kids?" No. You would courteously accept the good wishes and if the
clerk is a woman, say "Same to you." Or so I hope.

Unless you know that a person doesn't celebrate Christmas or Hanukkah
or whatever, there's nothing wrong with sincerely wishing them a happy
whatever. As I said, you can wish me Happy Kwanzaa or Happy Father's
Day, both of which it's obvious from looking at me are inapplicable,
and I'll smile and say "Thank you" or "Same to you." Or, if it happens
to be near Christmas (which it wouldn't be on Father's Day, granted),
I'll smile and say, "Merry Christmas."

Carol, wishing everyone a Happy New Year, with no offense intended to
those who celebrate the New Year at some other time, and wondering
whether she's the only person who still knows the lyrics to "Auld Lang
Syne"
> 
> - Heidi
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>





From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Tue Jan  1 20:35:11 2008
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2008 20:35:11 -0000
Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"?
In-Reply-To: <fle77u+u9jc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fle85v+9jvm@eGroups.com>

> Carol responds:
> "Happy holidays" from a store employee is about as genuine and
> heartfelt as "Have a nice day." It's something the clerks are
> programmed to say.

Magpie:
But isn't this true for Merry Christmas as well? 

Carol:
 And if that happens not to buy the case
> and someone makes the logical assumption that we're buying Christmas
> presents when we're not and wishes us a Merry Christmas, there's no
> more need to get upset than when someone wishes a middle-aged woman 
a
> happy Mother's Day on the assumption that she's a mother. Would you
> get all huffy and say, "I don't have any kids, you moron?" or "How
> dare you assume that I'm a mother just because other women my age 
have
> kids?" No. You would courteously accept the good wishes and if the
> clerk is a woman, say "Same to you." Or so I hope.

Magpie:
Just have to say--wow, I'd never do that. Wish somebody a happy 
mother's day just because she's above a certain age and female? 
Never. If somebody wished it to me I would tell the person I don't 
have kids. I wouldn't call them a moron, but it would very much make 
me uncomfortable. As it does whenever random shopkeepers ask me about 
children I don't have. I don't think I'd get angry and turn on the 
person, and I might accept that they meant it as a way of wishing me 
good will, but it would make me feel the opposite of being wished 
well.

-m




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Jan  1 20:37:28 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2008 20:37:28 -0000
Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"?
In-Reply-To: <flbsoi+ka3c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fle8a8+sde7@eGroups.com>

Carol earlier:
>
> > >  Christmas trees have become holiday trees; Christmas stamps
have become holiday stamps 
> 
Susan: 
> It seems to me that last time I went to the post office there was a
 generic Christmas stamp (usually Santa Claus, this year a snowman in
the snow? and a bear in the snow?) and a Christian religious stamp,
wasn't it last year the Pieta? (Picture of Mary holding the dead
Jesus? There's also a Chanukah stamp...
> 

Carol again:

USPS has a "holiday store" with "holiday train sets," etc. Their link
for "holiday stamps" does take you to Christmas stamps (religious),
along with Hanukkah and Eid and Kwanzaa stamps, but there is no
secular Christmas stamp with Santa Claus or Christmas trees or
anything else specifically associated with Christmas, as in previous
years, only a generic "holiday knit stamp," which would, I think, have
been called a Christmas stamp ten or fifteen years ago, just as last
year's "holiday cookie stamps" would have been called "Christmas
cookie stamps" at that time.

They would never have a Pieta for Christmas. That relates to Good
Friday, which is not a day for celebration (though it's depicted in
Catholic art). The religious Christmas stamp is always a Madonna and
child (or perhaps a Nativity scene?). Oddly, I've seen forums in which
Fundamentalist Christians complained about the "Catholic" stamp and
wondered where the "Christian" one was, as if Catholics weren't
Christians (existing before the Fundamentalists) and as if the birth
of Jesus weren't what Christmas is all about from the Christian
perspective.

Carol, wondering whether anyone besides people who celebrate Christmas
bought the generic "holiday knit" stamps




From macloudt at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Jan  1 20:45:35 2008
From: macloudt at yahoo.co.uk (Mary Ann)
Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2008 20:45:35 -0000
Subject: church humour and Christmas/holiday plays
In-Reply-To: <fle3h7+963l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fle8pf+thek@eGroups.com>

Belinda added to my list of pre-school Nativity play must-haves:

> 8) Mary must forget that the doll she's holding is supposed to be a 
> real baby. Better yet, she should forget she's holding anything, and 
> let it dangle by its swaddlings.
> 
> 9) All the stable animals shall compete to make their noises the 
> loudest.
> 
> 10) Angel's halos should be attached so that they slowly slip 
> sideways throughout the play.  Wings too.

Hee!  I'd forgotten about the dropped babies and the crooked halos.  
Who else wants to add to the list?

Do any of you Brits remember a Christmas special 4 or 5 years ago 
called The Flint Street Nativity?  The writer had collected Nativity 
play stories for 10 years written a collaboration of all the things 
that had gone wrong.  The parts of the children were played beautifully 
by adults and all the sets were made to make the adults to child 
scale.  It's the funniest Christmas special I've ever seen but, sadly, 
it doesn't seem to have been repeated since it was first shown.

Mary Ann, who wants to watch The Hogfather once more before packing her 
Christmas stuff away





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Jan  1 21:03:58 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2008 21:03:58 -0000
Subject: coercion
In-Reply-To: <flc3an+ko24@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fle9ru+gqjs@eGroups.com>

Susan:
> Well, I guess that says it all. YOUR culture is dominant, so never 
> mind the needs, desires, of the minority.
> 
> And, I don't like it.. I don't like dominance..of any kind.

Carol:

But where can you go to escape a dominant culture? Every country has
one. I'd say the U.S. is a lot more tolerant of your religious views
and your lifestyle than many predominantly Islamic countries would be.
At least no one here has to wear a burkha (sp). And if you lived in,
say, Japan, you'd be just as much in the minority as you are here.
(We're all discriminated against in one way or another. I can't find
clothes to fit me because the clothing manufacturers (at least for
clothes within my budget) don't acknowledge the existence of
five-feet-ten, 125-pound, late-middle-aged women. (BTW, Susan, if
you're ancient, I must be teetering on the edge of the grave, or at
least the old folks home. I was chatting with Ben Franklin the other
day. . . ;-) ) 

Carol, fearing that dominance is a fact of life, just like laws,
government, taxes, and bosses





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Jan  1 21:50:44 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2008 21:50:44 -0000
Subject: church humour and Christmas/holiday plays
In-Reply-To: <fle3h7+963l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <flecjk+enm9@eGroups.com>

Belinda:
> LOL Mary Ann this is precious! May I add?
> 
> 8) Mary must forget that the doll she's holding is supposed to be a 
> real baby. Better yet, she should forget she's holding anything, and 
> let it dangle by its swaddlings.
> 
> 9) All the stable animals shall compete to make their noises the 
> loudest.
> 
> 10) Angel's halos should be attached so that they slowly slip 
> sideways throughout the play.  Wings too.
>
Carol adds:

If the Nativity play includes an Adam and Eve scene, a two-year-old
girl dressed as a lamb must walk over to the "tree," pluck off the
apple, and start to eat it. Guaranteed to be remembered by everyone
present for, oh, the rest of their lives.

Carol, smiling at the memory




From tonks_op at yahoo.com  Tue Jan  1 21:57:08 2008
From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks)
Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2008 21:57:08 -0000
Subject: church humour and Christmas/holiday plays
In-Reply-To: <fle267+s9v3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <flecvk+ahf7@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Mary Ann" <macloudt at ...> wrote:
> Our old family church in Toronto used to call them "twice-a-year 
> Catholics", and these people received a stern talking-to from the 
> priest.  They also provided fun distractions for bored stiff 
teenagers  as these twice-a-year folk didn't know when to sit, kneel or 
stand.   Yes, I was that bored during mass. :D  A British priest I knew 
referred  to these folks as Submarine Catholics as they only surface 
twice a year.  I love this phrase, lapsed Catholic that I am.
> 
> Do other religions have such terms for infrequent worshippers?  Just 
curious.
> 

Tonks:

At my Church we call them Christers. Meaning Christmas/Easter. But I 
understand that this name also mean something else in other areas. Our 
current Priest objects to the term, but I think it is funny. An no, we 
don't mean it in a bad way, just in a fun way.

Tonks_op




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Jan  1 22:02:13 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2008 22:02:13 -0000
Subject: New Years resolutions
Message-ID: <fled95+bpf1@eGroups.com>

Has anyone else made a New Years resolution or two? Mine is the same
as alwyas: stop procrastinating! It's already been broken, but today's
a holiday, right?

Carol, getting ready to take her morning shower at 3:01 p.m.




From Schlobin at aol.com  Wed Jan  2 00:39:21 2008
From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176)
Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 00:39:21 -0000
Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"?
In-Reply-To: <fle8a8+sde7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <flemfp+b93b@eGroups.com>

> 
> They would never have a Pieta for Christmas. That relates to Good
> Friday, which is not a day for celebration (though it's depicted in
> Catholic art). The religious Christmas stamp is always a Madonna and
> child (or perhaps a Nativity scene?). 

You're correct. The Christmas stamp is a Madonna and child.
For 2006
Christmas: Chac?n Madonna and Child with Bird
For the Holidays, the "Christmas: Chac?n Madonna and Child with Bird," 
stamp features an oil-on-canvas with gold details. Dating from around 
1765, the painting is attributed to Ignacio Chac?n ? an artist active 
from 1745 to 1775 in Cuzco, Peru. It is now part of the Engracia and 
Frank Barrows Freyer Collection of Peruvian colonial art at the Denver 
Art Museum.

Then I must have read you incorrectly when you stated that there were 
no longer Christmas stamps.

Susan




From s.hayes at qut.edu.au  Wed Jan  2 02:26:03 2008
From: s.hayes at qut.edu.au (Sharon Hayes)
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 12:26:03 +1000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] New Years resolutions
In-Reply-To: <fled95+bpf1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3EBC8113FA09F449B6CC44C847E510911CDFE68A94@QUTEXMBX02.qut.edu.au>

Carol:
Has anyone else made a New Years resolution or two? Mine is the same
as alwyas: stop procrastinating! It's already been broken, but today's
a holiday, right?

Sharon:
You know, I don't usually make resolutions, but yours is a very good one!  I stopped making resolutions years ago because I always broke them in the first week (well, january 1st if I'm honest). But this year I really want to be more productive, so I think I will join you in your new year's resolution and try to stop procrastinating!




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From tonks_op at yahoo.com  Wed Jan  2 03:03:49 2008
From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks)
Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 03:03:49 -0000
Subject: Auld Lang Syne (was  What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"?)
In-Reply-To: <fle77u+u9jc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fleuul+g0d2@eGroups.com>

> 
> Carol, wishing everyone a Happy New Year, with no offense intended to
> those who celebrate the New Year at some other time, and wondering
> whether she's the only person who still knows the lyrics to "Auld Lang
> Syne"

Tonks:

Ah, no Carol, you are not the only one. Remember Guy Lombardo and his 
Royal Canadians? Don't people still sing that somewhere? 
A toast of sparking butter beer to everyone and a Happy New Year!! 
(Especially to Alla.)

Tonks_op
(winks to Carol, Happy 8th day of Christmas too.)




From tonks_op at yahoo.com  Wed Jan  2 03:16:14 2008
From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks)
Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 03:16:14 -0000
Subject: New Years resolutions
In-Reply-To: <fled95+bpf1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <flevlu+d18f@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:
>
> Has anyone else made a New Years resolution or two? Mine is the same
> as alwyas: stop procrastinating! It's already been broken, but today's
> a holiday, right?
> 
> Carol, getting ready to take her morning shower at 3:01 p.m.
>

Tonks:
;-)  Well it is morning somewhere! No problem. 

Actually I am pretty good at New Years Resolutions. The secret is to 
only have a few and have them be things that you are really motivated 
about, not just something that other people think you ought to do. Some 
of mine have been the first step of big things, such as the year I 
put "start college". I did and went on the get 2 degrees. This year I 
am getting back onto the Biggers Losers diet after a break for 
Christmas (can I say that? ;-))and a couple of other resolutions. I 
expect to have lost 50 pounds before the forth of July. And I will!! 
Feel free to check up on me.

Tonks_op




From tonks_op at yahoo.com  Wed Jan  2 03:37:13 2008
From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks)
Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 03:37:13 -0000
Subject: How to Have a Successful Resolution /Re: New Years resolutions
In-Reply-To: <3EBC8113FA09F449B6CC44C847E510911CDFE68A94@QUTEXMBX02.qut.edu.au>
Message-ID: <flf0t9+pulp@eGroups.com>

> Sharon:
> You know, I don't usually make resolutions, but yours is a very 
good one!  I stopped making resolutions years ago because I always 
broke them in the first week (well, january 1st if I'm honest). But 
this year I really want to be more productive, so I think I will 
join you in your new year's resolution and try to stop 
procrastinating!
> 

Tonks:
I have always been very successful at New Years Resolutions. Not 
each one, but I usually achieve most of them. 

Allow me to be so bold as to offer a word of advise. I use to be a 
Psychotherapist and we had to write treatment goals for our clients. 
If you want to stop procrastinating, the thing to do is ask yourself 
what is the opposite of procrastantion. Your subconcious mind will 
help you to achieve your goal, but it can't do a negative. Your goal 
has to be phrased in postive terms. What you WANT to do, not what 
you don't want to do. So as an example you might say your goal is: 
To be puctual. Or something else, use your own words that mean 
something to you. (I am late to everything and don't really care, so 
that would not be a good resolution for me.) But you get the idea.

When you have your goal in a term that in meaningful to you, you are 
going to ask yourself what are the small steps that you have to take 
to get there. If it were to be on time, you might start with "I will 
be on time for each weekly staff meeting". Or if a project, "I will 
get one project done by the due date, this month/ or each week". or 
whatever makes sense to you. 

This is something that you are actually able to do instead of a 
global 'stop procrastinating'. And it is something that you can 
measure. And as you succeed day by day or week by week, you will be 
reinforcing the behavior that you want and creating a new habit to 
replace the old one. 

Good luck to everyone with their resolutions this year. As the 
saying goes "everyday, in every way, we are getting better and 
better".

Cheers!

Tonks_op








From s_ings at yahoo.com  Wed Jan  2 04:16:27 2008
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 04:16:27 -0000
Subject: Happy New Year's!
Message-ID: <flf36r+tfmd@eGroups.com>

It's been a brutal week at Blockbuster, but I have survived. 
Thankfully a downfall of snow came today and slowed down the number 
of customers coming into the store. Since we were well staffed, we 
opted to toss me out an hour early. I came home with lovely 
intentions of posting New Year's wishes here and on my livejournal. 
Instead, I fell asleep on the couch at 5, after an early dinner. 
Still, I'm awake now and nicely in time wish everyone all the best 
for 2008.

I've been around HPFGU for a long time. Pre-GoF, in fact. I was here 
through the Yahoo!Club and E-Group days, before we became a Yahoo!
Group. I pre-date the splitting of the lists, too. I remember when 
the list was small enough that I recognised the names of everyone who 
posted. In fact, it was the awesome feeling of finding a group of 
friends that prompted me to join this list in the first place. 

I was here when the list was deleted and was behind the scenes for 
the ensuing chaos. I've been here through many ups and downs. After 
9/11, we let people know the chat room was open for anyone who needed 
to talk. There were a couple of us who were in there for up to 8-10 
hours a day so that people coming in *did* have someone to talk to. I 
met my best friend on HPFGU, too. 

*waves at the Amandageist*

I even hopped on a Greyhound bus from Ontario to Texas in 2001 to 
visit her for the first time. I'm about to make my 5th trip there 
next month, this time taking my daughter, who will meet my best 
friend for the first time. 

I've met many HPFGU-ers at various conferences over the years. I've 
even overcome my fear of public speaking for the sake of fandom 
(presenting at Phoenix Rising last year and doing live TV/radio 
interviews for the first Convention Alley). :D I went to SkyDome 
after GoF to hear JKR speak at what was the largest public reading in 
history (and still holds that record, iirc). I took my daughter and 
nephew out of school and we made a 2 day mini-vacation of it. 

I've had the pleasure of being a List Elf for a long time. I rarely 
post to the main list anymore (mostly because you all get there first 
and are generally more eloquent!), but I read every single post that 
members make. Sure, I'm continually behind but I'm still reading! 

What's my point? There is none, really. I love these lists and 
everyone on them who has made my life richer. Each of you, in your 
own way, has done something to make my life more interesting or more 
blessed. You've made me smile, sometimes cry, taught me things, made 
me think and - most importantly - made my life more complete. 

For that, I wish you all a most blessed and happy New Year!

Sheryll aka Rylly Elf




From Schlobin at aol.com  Wed Jan  2 04:41:07 2008
From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176)
Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 04:41:07 -0000
Subject: Happy New Year's! food, recipes, movies - Galaxy Quest
In-Reply-To: <flf36r+tfmd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <flf4l3+50li@eGroups.com>

. 
> 
> For that, I wish you all a most blessed and happy New Year!
> 
> Sheryll aka Rylly Elf
>

May the Goddess be with you, Sheryll! Happy new year!

I've been around the list from the beginnings, too!

So, we had some great food for those cooks on the list...

We have a new cook book called Winter Soups and had Crab and Crimini 
Mushrooms, as well as Moussaka Soup for this holiday...

Also a very easy thing, which is cut up a baguette in small pieces, and 
in the food processor combine blue cheese with mayonaisse..put in on 
the bread, put it on a cookie sheet, broil it for five minutes....a 
lovely appetizer...

Who else has seen Galaxy Quest? It is a HILARIOUS star trek spoof, 
great fun...we all watched it new year's eve..it's great being on the 
west coast with kids because we can watch the new year's ball 
descending in times square at 9 p.m. OUR time.....

Tonight the children are watching Abbott and Costello meet 
Frankenstein....!!

I bought my partner a dvd of Ozzie and Harriet as a joke...of course 
I'm sure some remember this in the U.S.....

I can't believe how boring it was...!

Happy new year to all who are celebrating.

Susan






From s_ings at yahoo.com  Wed Jan  2 04:51:35 2008
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 23:51:35 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Happy New Year's! food, recipes, movies - Galaxy Quest
In-Reply-To: <flf4l3+50li@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <55463.99807.qm@web63406.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

> . 
> > 
> > For that, I wish you all a most blessed and happy
> New Year!
> > 
> > Sheryll aka Rylly Elf
> >
> 
Susan:
> May the Goddess be with you, Sheryll! Happy new
> year!
> 
> I've been around the list from the beginnings, too!
> 
> So, we had some great food for those cooks on the
> list...

Sheryll:

Hee! I do believe it was all the talk about food that
prompted the creation of OTC! 

The Winter Soups cookbook sounds fantastic! I usually
have a day in early January where I make a bunch of
soups and stews and freeze them for easy winter meals.
Kind of a 'the holidays are over but I still want to
cook' thing. :)

Susan:
> Who else has seen Galaxy Quest? It is a HILARIOUS
> star trek spoof, 
> great fun...we all watched it new year's eve..it's
> great being on the 
> west coast with kids because we can watch the new
> year's ball 
> descending in times square at 9 p.m. OUR time.....
> 
Sheryll:

I love that movie! We stick it in the DVD player at
work at lot (and I own a copy). Once upon a time I had
a sound clip from the movie (Alan Rickman saying, "You
broke the bloody ship") that played everytime I closed
a window on my computer. :D

Sheryll

Join the fun at Convention Alley 2008



      Connect with friends from any web browser - no download required. Try the new Yahoo! Canada Messenger for the Web BETA at http://ca.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php



From Schlobin at aol.com  Wed Jan  2 05:25:52 2008
From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176)
Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 05:25:52 -0000
Subject: coercion
In-Reply-To: <fle9ru+gqjs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <flf790+ahcv@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> 
wrote:
>
> Susan:
> > Well, I guess that says it all. YOUR culture is dominant, so 
never 
> > mind the needs, desires, of the minority.
> > 
> > And, I don't like it.. I don't like dominance..of any kind.
> 
> Carol:
> 
> But where can you go to escape a dominant culture? Every country has
> one. I'd say the U.S. is a lot more tolerant of your religious views
> and your lifestyle than many predominantly Islamic countries would 
be.
> At least no one here has to wear a burkha (sp). And if you lived in,
> say, Japan, you'd be just as much in the minority as you are here.
> (We're all discriminated against in one way or another. I can't find
> clothes to fit me because the clothing manufacturers (at least for
> clothes within my budget) don't acknowledge the existence of
> five-feet-ten, 125-pound, late-middle-aged women. (BTW, Susan, if
> you're ancient, I must be teetering on the edge of the grave, or at
> least the old folks home. I was chatting with Ben Franklin the other
> day. . . ;-) ) 
> 
> Carol, fearing that dominance is a fact of life, just like laws,
> government, taxes, and bosses
>


Oh, goodness, Carol..do you really think that you can equate not 
being able to buy clothes to fit you with being thrown out of your 
family, fired from your job, beat up, murdered, and called names...
(which happens to lesbian, gay, bisexual and trans gendered people)

I guess you are confusing being the Majority with being Dominant...

In the United States, I THOUGHT we had the moral ideal that the 
minority rights would be protected..am I wrong?

In terms of toleration of my "lifestyle"...I assume you mean my 
orientation, which is that I'm a lesbian....Lifestyle is the idea 
that I'm choosing a wild, romantic sex filled life...well, that would 
be nice..but like most parents...I've chosen a humdrum, mostly 
dealing with kids, not going out and partying life...that's what I've 
CHOSEN! I didn't CHOOSE to fall in love with my amazing partner...who 
happens to be a woman..that just happened...just as I imagine you 
fell in love with your spouse...choice involved..

In terms of tolerance, there are many countries that are more 
tolerant of lesbian orientation...

Full marriage for same gender couples is presently available to same-
sex couples in seven jurisdictions. The Netherlands was the first 
country to allow same-sex marriage in 2001. Same-sex marriages are 
also recognized in Belgium, Canada, South Africa, Spain, and the U.S. 
state of Massachusetts.

And in many countries, especialy the Scandanvian ones..there is 
tremendous tolerance of non-christian religion...and in fact, many of 
the cathedrals in Europe have dwindling numbers of worshippers 
there...
hence, much more tolerance of non-christians than here in the U.S.

Susan





From tonks_op at yahoo.com  Wed Jan  2 05:26:53 2008
From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks)
Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 05:26:53 -0000
Subject: Happy New Year's!
In-Reply-To: <flf36r+tfmd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <flf7at+fk2u@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Sheryll Townsend" 
<s_ings at ...> wrote:
> 
> I've had the pleasure of being a List Elf for a long time. I 
rarely post to the main list anymore (mostly because you all get 
there first  and are generally more eloquent!), but I read every 
single post that members make. Sure, I'm continually behind but I'm 
still reading! 
> 
> What's my point? There is none, really. I love these lists and 
> everyone on them who has made my life richer. Each of you, in your 
> own way, has done something to make my life more interesting or 
more blessed. You've made me smile, sometimes cry, taught me things, 
made  me think and - most importantly - made my life more complete. 
> 
> For that, I wish you all a most blessed and happy New Year!


Tonks_op
That sounds very eloquent to me. ;-) You put a tear in my eye. 
I am glad that I met you. Here is a big New Years hug.[[Sheryll]] 
Happy 2008 to you too! See you in Texas at the HP convention.

Tonks_op




From Schlobin at aol.com  Wed Jan  2 05:27:47 2008
From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176)
Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 05:27:47 -0000
Subject: coercion
In-Reply-To: <fle9ru+gqjs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <flf7cj+anqk@eGroups.com>

> 
> Carol, fearing that dominance is a fact of life, just like laws,
> government, taxes, and bosses
>


Well, some of us (like J.K. Rowling who indicates her views very 
clearly specifically in Order of the Phoenix) feel that dominance and 
tyranny and enforced beliefs are something to be resisted and fought 
against....

Do you really think, for example, that the dominance on white people 
against people of color is okay?

Susan




From s.hayes at qut.edu.au  Wed Jan  2 07:41:41 2008
From: s.hayes at qut.edu.au (Sharon Hayes)
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 17:41:41 +1000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] How to Have a Successful Resolution /Re: New
 Years resolutions
In-Reply-To: <flf0t9+pulp@eGroups.com>
References: <3EBC8113FA09F449B6CC44C847E510911CDFE68A94@QUTEXMBX02.qut.edu.au>,<flf0t9+pulp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3EBC8113FA09F449B6CC44C847E510911CDFC631C7@QUTEXMBX02.qut.edu.au>


> Sharon:
> You know, I don't usually make resolutions, but yours is a very
good one! I stopped making resolutions years ago because I always
broke them in the first week (well, january 1st if I'm honest). But
this year I really want to be more productive, so I think I will
join you in your new year's resolution and try to stop
procrastinating!
>

Tonks:
I have always been very successful at New Years Resolutions. Not
each one, but I usually achieve most of them.

Allow me to be so bold as to offer a word of advise. I use to be a
Psychotherapist and we had to write treatment goals for our clients.
If you want to stop procrastinating, the thing to do is ask yourself
what is the opposite of procrastantion. Your subconcious mind will
help you to achieve your goal, but it can't do a negative. Your goal
has to be phrased in postive terms. What you WANT to do, not what
you don't want to do. So as an example you might say your goal is:
To be puctual. Or something else, use your own words that mean
something to you. (I am late to everything and don't really care, so
that would not be a good resolution for me.) But you get the idea.
<SNIP>

Sharon again:
Thanks for the great advice :-)  I do the goal thing actually, learnt it years ago and do achieve most of what I want to, but I am cursed with an obsessive personality, so when I get obsessed with something it gets 90% of my attention. The rest of what I need to do goes into the other 10%. Need I add that my current obsession is -- you guessed it, all things Harry Potter! To the point where I have to analyse it SO much that I even research it at work (lucky I do social research!). Meanwhile, other projects get my least attention, or just enough to get done adequately, which is OK, but not ideal. To prove just how obsessed I am, I am currently writing a HP fanfic for one of my first year classes on social ethics ( a slash one at that -- we do a unit on sex and crime)! LOL.

Having said that, I can't say I am worried much about being obsessive. It's kinda fun and my boss just pats me on the head and calls me eccentric ;-) Maybe that's why I never keep my resolutions -- I just really don't care enough.



From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Wed Jan  2 07:54:37 2008
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 07:54:37 -0000
Subject: coercion
In-Reply-To: <flf7cj+anqk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <flffvt+cqm5@eGroups.com>

---  "susanmcgee48176" <Schlobin at ...> wrote:
>
> > 
> > Carol, fearing that dominance is a fact of life, just like
> > laws, government, taxes, and bosses
> >
> 
> 
> Well, some of us (like J.K. Rowling who indicates her views
> very clearly specifically in Order of the Phoenix) feel that
> dominance and tyranny and enforced beliefs are something to 
> be resisted and fought against....
> 
> Do you really think, for example, that the dominance on 
> white people against people of color is okay?
> 
> Susan
>

bboyminn:

I think you are confusing 'dominant' with 'dominate'. That
which is 'dominant' does not necessarily 'dominate'. 

Like it or not, the majority of a common people have a
dominant influence on the culture and customs of a region.
But that is far far different than assuming that majority
dominance is the same as the majority dictating to the rest.

We have all spoken up and said that we stand for the 
minorities being included and having their tradictions and
customs honored. But we have also said, we will not deny
our own customs and culture to make that happen.

Yes, minorities have rights, they have exactly the same
rights as the majority. 

It seems that it is only you who can't see these 
distinctions. 

Like it or not, Christianity is the dominant culture in
the USA, but that by no means also implies that we are
suppressing or oppressing minority religions or cultures.

And that's the way it is.

Steve/bboyminn





From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Wed Jan  2 10:45:35 2008
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 10:45:35 -0000
Subject: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"?
In-Reply-To: <fle77u+u9jc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <flfq0f+tlkv@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:

Carol: 

> wishing everyone a Happy New Year, with no offense intended to
> those who celebrate the New Year at some other time, and wondering
> whether she's the only person who still knows the lyrics to "Auld Lang
> Syne"

Geoff:
Defienitely not, Carol. 

You're a bit like Elijah who thought in a moment of depression 
that he was the only one of God's prophets left in Israel and 
was told that there were thousands of others like him.

I was out on New Year's Eve  with some fellow church members 
seeing in the New Year and, as Big Ben chimed midnight, we 
linked hands and sang "Auld Lang Syne" with all its lyrics.... and 
we're not even Scots.
:-)






From specialcritters at hotmail.com  Wed Jan  2 14:30:04 2008
From: specialcritters at hotmail.com (Lee Truslow)
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 09:30:04 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Christmas/holiday plays/Flint Street Nativity
In-Reply-To: <fle8pf+thek@eGroups.com>
References: <fle3h7+963l@eGroups.com> <fle8pf+thek@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <BAY138-W418B7D1D22A9407DEAB521B2520@phx.gbl>


(For some reason, this post just won't let me trim it.)
 
"Fint Street" got such rave reviews I went looking for it. It's at IMDB http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0228306/ but not Amazon (US). http://tvshowsondvd.com/ refused to list it as well. :(


To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com




Belinda added to my list of pre-school Nativity play must-haves:> 8) Mary must forget that the doll she's holding is supposed to be a > real baby. Better yet, she should forget she's holding anything, and > let it dangle by its swaddlings.> > 9) All the stable animals shall compete to make their noises the > loudest.> > 10) Angel's halos should be attached so that they slowly slip > sideways throughout the play. Wings too.Hee! I'd forgotten about the dropped babies and the crooked halos. Who else wants to add to the list?Do any of you Brits remember a Christmas special 4 or 5 years ago called The Flint Street Nativity? The writer had collected Nativity play stories for 10 years written a collaboration of all the things that had gone wrong. The parts of the children were played beautifully by adults and all the sets were made to make the adults to child scale. It's the funniest Christmas special I've ever seen but, sadly, it doesn't seem to have been repeated since it was first shown.Mary Ann, who wants to watch The Hogfather once more before packing her Christmas stuff away 






_________________________________________________________________
Get the power of Windows + Web with the new Windows Live.
http://www.windowslive.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_powerofwindows_122007

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Jan  2 16:01:10 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 16:01:10 -0000
Subject: coercion
In-Reply-To: <flf790+ahcv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <flgcg6+mdsv@eGroups.com>

Susan:
> Oh, goodness, Carol..do you really think that you can equate not
being able to buy clothes to fit you with being thrown out of your
family, fired from your job, beat up, murdered, and called names...
(which happens to lesbian, gay, bisexual and trans gendered people)
> 
> I guess you are confusing being the Majority with being Dominant...
> 
> In the United States, I THOUGHT we had the moral ideal that the 
> minority rights would be protected..am I wrong?
> 
> In terms of toleration of my "lifestyle"...I assume you mean my 
orientation, which is that I'm a lesbian....Lifestyle is the idea 
that I'm choosing a wild, romantic sex filled life...well, that would
 be nice..but like most parents...I've chosen a humdrum, mostly 
dealing with kids, not going out and partying life...that's what I've
CHOSEN! I didn't CHOOSE to fall in love with my amazing partner...who
happens to be a woman..that just happened...just as I imagine you 
fell in love with your spouse...choice involved..
> 
> In terms of tolerance, there are many countries that are more 
tolerant of lesbian orientation...
> 
> Full marriage for same gender couples is presently available to
same-sex couples in seven jurisdictions. The Netherlands was the first
country to allow same-sex marriage in 2001. Same-sex marriages are
also recognized in Belgium, Canada, South Africa, Spain, and the U.S. 
> state of Massachusetts.
> 
> And in many countries, especialy the Scandanvian ones..there is 
tremendous tolerance of non-christian religion...and in fact, many of
the cathedrals in Europe have dwindling numbers of worshippers 
there...hence, much more tolerance of non-christians than here in the U.S.

>
Carol responds:
I thought we were talking about religion, actually. My bit about being
tall was only to indicate that we're all discriminated against in some
way (you and I for being "old") or at least outside the norm in some way.

But you seem to be ignoring my main point, which is that many
countries treat Christians or Jews (or women) much worse than Wiccans
are treated in the U.S, (being wished a Merry Christmas or denied a
pentacle on their gravestones). No one I know is going to stone you to
death or slash your face (as happens to women in certain Arab
countries for unapproved sexual relationships on the one hand and
wearing makeup on the other). Nor will you be forced to wear a burkha
(I do need to look up the spelling of that word). I, for one, am happy
to live in the U.S. (despite being annoyed by "happy holidays" and
other linguistic trends). I greatly prefer it to, say, Afghanistan or
Rwanda. Surely, you're not in danger of being beat up or murdered
where you live and no one is denying you the right to live with your
partner or practice Wicca in California, one of the most liberal
states in the union. BTW, add New Hampshire to the list of states in
which same-sex unions are legal as of yesterday.

And protection of minority rights should not be confused with denial
of the rights of the majority. (Freedom of religion is not freedom
from religion, etc.) Also, Christians were among the first religious
sects to be persecuted and still are in some countries. (Christians
and Jews are perceived as a threat by some fundamentalist Muslims, who
are determined to wipe out the entire West. I assume that you haven't
forgotten 9/11.)

Forgive my use of "lifestyle" for "orientation." I'm not up on the
latest trends in politically correct terminology, so I just use the
terms that are familiar to me. (I was once chastised by a
twenty-something for talking about an animal being "put to sleep"
rather than "put down." Exactly what made her euphemism preferable to
mine, which is technically accurate (the animal was put into such a
deep sleep that it never woke up) is beyond me.) At any rate, I
intended no offense. I'm not implying that you engage in immoral
behavior. as for my falling in love with my "spouse"--my ex-husband is
my *ex*-husband for good reasons.

Carol, thinking we should all count our blessings 




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Jan  2 16:14:19 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 16:14:19 -0000
Subject: coercion
In-Reply-To: <flf7cj+anqk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <flgd8r+kok4@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "susanmcgee48176"
<Schlobin at ...> wrote:
>
> > 
> > Carol, fearing that dominance is a fact of life, just like laws,
> > government, taxes, and bosses
> >
> 
> 
> Well, some of us (like J.K. Rowling who indicates her views very
clearly specifically in Order of the Phoenix) feel that dominance and
tyranny and enforced beliefs are something to be resisted and fought
against....
> 
> Do you really think, for example, that the dominance on white people
against people of color is okay?
> 
> Susan
>
Carol responds:
Please don't put words in my mouth. When and where did I say that? *Of
course* I don't believe that nonwhite people are inferior to white
people (though I don't use PC terms like "people of color"--last time
I looked, my skin was some unidentifiable color--kind of a freckly
pale pinkish). I am only saying that you will have a hard time
escaping a dominant culture whether you live in the U.S. China,
Pakistan, or Timbuktu. And I think you're the one whose mistaking
dominance for tyranny with regard to "Merry Christmas," which is not
anyone imposing their will on you and making you celebrate Christmas
or attend church. Freedom of religion includes the right not to be
Christian. I don't attend church, either, FWIW, and I send away any
Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses who knock on my door intending to
"save" me with a polite "not interested."

Carol, who is *obviously* opposed to tyranny (there's a reason I see
fundamentalist Islam as dangerous) but fears that *dominance* (whether
it's in terms of a dominant culture, a government, or an employer) is
an inescapable fact of life




From Schlobin at aol.com  Wed Jan  2 16:19:16 2008
From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176)
Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 16:19:16 -0000
Subject: coercion
In-Reply-To: <flffvt+cqm5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <flgdi4+matk@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <bboyminn at ...> wrote:
>
> ---  "susanmcgee48176" <Schlobin@> wrote:
> >
> > > 
> > > Carol, fearing that dominance is a fact of life, just like
> > > laws, government, taxes, and bosses
> > >
> > 
> > 
> > Well, some of us (like J.K. Rowling who indicates her views
> > very clearly specifically in Order of the Phoenix) feel that
> > dominance and tyranny and enforced beliefs are something to 
> > be resisted and fought against....
> > 
> > Do you really think, for example, that the dominance on 
> > white people against people of color is okay?
> > 
> > Susan
> >
> 
> bboyminn:
> 
> I think you are confusing 'dominant' with 'dominate'. That
> which is 'dominant' does not necessarily 'dominate'. 
> 
> Like it or not, the majority of a common people have a
> dominant influence on the culture and customs of a region.
> But that is far far different than assuming that majority
> dominance is the same as the majority dictating to the rest.
> 
> We have all spoken up and said that we stand for the 
> minorities being included and having their tradictions and
> customs honored. But we have also said, we will not deny
> our own customs and culture to make that happen.
> 
> Yes, minorities have rights, they have exactly the same
> rights as the majority. 
> 
> It seems that it is only you who can't see these 
> distinctions. 
> 
> Like it or not, Christianity is the dominant culture in
> the USA, but that by no means also implies that we are
> suppressing or oppressing minority religions or cultures.
> 
> And that's the way it is.
> 
> Steve/bboyminn
>


What you're saying is that Christianity is the MAJORITY religion in 
the U.S....you're correct...I'm using DOMINANT to imply DOMINATION...

I believe that a MAJORITY religion could protect the rights of the 
minority...

Where we disagree is the imposition of Christianity into the public 
sphere...where it therefore is DOMINATING public space or public 
discourse.

I am not suppressing YOUR right to say Merry Christmas to whomever 
you please. I think it's discourteous at best.

And I'm not even boycotting places that say Merry Christmas..it's 
others on the list who are essentially suggesting organizing against 
stores and institutions who DON'T wish ALL CUSTOMERS - regardless of 
their religion -- a religious greeting. That's coercion.

Susan




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Jan  2 16:25:10 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 16:25:10 -0000
Subject: "Auld Lang Syne" (Was: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"?)
In-Reply-To: <flfq0f+tlkv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <flgdt6+voum@eGroups.com>

Carol: 
> 
> > wishing everyone a Happy New Year, with no offense intended to
> > those who celebrate the New Year at some other time, and wondering
> > whether she's the only person who still knows the lyrics to "Auld Lang
> > Syne"
> 
> Geoff:
> Defienitely not, Carol. 
> 
> You're a bit like Elijah who thought in a moment of depression that
he was the only one of God's prophets left in Israel and was told that
there were thousands of others like him.
> 
> I was out on New Year's Eve  with some fellow church members seeing
in the New Year and, as Big Ben chimed midnight, we linked hands and
sang "Auld Lang Syne" with all its lyrics.... and we're not even Scots.
> :-)
>
Carol:
That's good to hear. But what about the people under forty, especially
Americans? I heard a commentator on "The Today Show" or one of those
morning programs (I was channel-switching) saying that she was glad
someone or other was doing an instrumental version of "Auld Lang Syne"
because "nobody knows the words." Obviously, she was speaking for
herself (I'm guessing she doesn't even know the meaning of the title),
but how accurate is her assumption? Are we losing yet another tradition?

Carol, who has been compared with a number of people, but never Elijah
until now




From Schlobin at aol.com  Wed Jan  2 16:27:49 2008
From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176)
Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 16:27:49 -0000
Subject: coercion
In-Reply-To: <flgcg6+mdsv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <flge25+eljq@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> 
wrote:
>
> Susan:
> > Oh, goodness, Carol..do you really think that you can equate not
> being able to buy clothes to fit you with being thrown out of your
> family, fired from your job, beat up, murdered, and called names...
> (which happens to lesbian, gay, bisexual and trans gendered people)
> > 
> > I guess you are confusing being the Majority with being 
Dominant...
> > 
> > In the United States, I THOUGHT we had the moral ideal that the 
> > minority rights would be protected..am I wrong?
> > 
> > In terms of toleration of my "lifestyle"...I assume you mean my 
> orientation, which is that I'm a lesbian....Lifestyle is the idea 
> that I'm choosing a wild, romantic sex filled life...well, that 
would
>  be nice..but like most parents...I've chosen a humdrum, mostly 
> dealing with kids, not going out and partying life...that's what 
I've
> CHOSEN! I didn't CHOOSE to fall in love with my amazing 
partner...who
> happens to be a woman..that just happened...just as I imagine you 
> fell in love with your spouse...choice involved..
> > 
> > In terms of tolerance, there are many countries that are more 
> tolerant of lesbian orientation...
> > 
> > Full marriage for same gender couples is presently available to
> same-sex couples in seven jurisdictions. The Netherlands was the 
first
> country to allow same-sex marriage in 2001. Same-sex marriages are
> also recognized in Belgium, Canada, South Africa, Spain, and the 
U.S. 
> > state of Massachusetts.
> > 
> > And in many countries, especialy the Scandanvian ones..there is 
> tremendous tolerance of non-christian religion...and in fact, many 
of
> the cathedrals in Europe have dwindling numbers of worshippers 
> there...hence, much more tolerance of non-christians than here in 
the U.S.
> 
> >
>> But you seem to be ignoring my main point, which is that many
> countries treat Christians or Jews (or women) much worse than 
Wiccans
> are treated in the U.S, (being wished a Merry Christmas or denied a
> pentacle on their gravestones). No one I know is going to stone you 
to
> death or slash your face (as happens to women in certain Arab
> countries for unapproved sexual relationships on the one hand and
> wearing makeup on the other). Nor will you be forced to wear a 
burkha
> (I do need to look up the spelling of that word). I, for one, am 
happy
> to live in the U.S. (despite being annoyed by "happy holidays" and
> other linguistic trends). I greatly prefer it to, say, Afghanistan 
or
> Rwanda. Surely, you're not in danger of being beat up or murdered
> where you live and no one is denying you the right to live with your
> partner or practice Wicca in California, one of the most liberal
> states in the union. BTW, add New Hampshire to the list of states in
> which same-sex unions are legal as of yesterday.

Carol, I think violence in any context is wrong, just as wrong when 
it is being practiced against Christians. There is more political and 
social freedom and toleration here than in the two countries you 
mentioned but there is LESS than in some other countries in the world.

Lesbians, gay men, bisexuals, transgendered people ARE assaulted and 
murdered in CALIFORNIA. It doesn't happen as OFTEN It's one of the 
reasons we live here, instead of Florida. I agree things are getting 
better (although some would not agree with that) and I do count my 
own personal blessings.

We live with the risk of assault, murder. We are discriminated 
against socially - I could give specifics, but I'm tired and it's 
depressing. We ARE in danger of it -- daily. That's what oppression 
is about.

Although others on this list might be discriminated against for other 
reasons, it's incredibly rare for someone to be discriminated against 
for being heterosexual (note I said incredibly rare)

Heterosexuals, on the other hand, have more options of where to 
live...when they are choosing where to move, they don't have to 
consider the climate of toleration of heterosexuals.

In some states in the US, it's illegal for lesbians and gays to adopt 
children or to foster children (although that is not going to last 
because the foster care system is desperate for decent parents for 
the kids).

And frankly, I don't buy "that's the way it is" (this is not directed 
at you, Carol, but more generally)...these things are wrong and must 
be changed. They can be changed. We have seen tremendous social 
change and again, other countries do better than we do, in the U.S.

And, no, I don't want to move there (again not directed at you, 
Carol)..I was born here, I'm a citizen, and I would prefer to stay 
and work for safety and justice.

Susan







From Schlobin at aol.com  Wed Jan  2 16:36:07 2008
From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176)
Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 16:36:07 -0000
Subject: coercion
In-Reply-To: <flgcg6+mdsv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <flgehn+houj@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> > 
> Forgive my use of "lifestyle" for "orientation." I'm not up on the
> latest trends in politically correct terminology, so I just use the
> terms that are familiar to me. 


I actually was asking a clarifying question, Carol....
When I think about my lifestyle, I think about going to sleep early, 
and my main sources of recreation walking and hiking in the Redwoods 
and on the beaches with the children and other children appropriate 
activities...

So I was trying to be clear about what you were saying, and you 
responded that you were actually talking about religion.

Anyway, "lifestyle" has historically been used as in the "gay 
lifestyle", and the person is assuming that all lesbians and gays 
have multiple partners, wild romantic and sexual lives, and have sex 
in the bushes...and that it's a choice. That's also why orientation 
has replaced preference.

Susan




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Jan  2 16:37:53 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 16:37:53 -0000
Subject: coercion
In-Reply-To: <flgdi4+matk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <flgel1+56fa@eGroups.com>

Susan wrote:
> <snip> 
> I am not suppressing YOUR right to say Merry Christmas to whomever 
> you please. I think it's discourteous at best.
> 
> And I'm not even boycotting places that say Merry Christmas..it's 
> others on the list who are essentially suggesting organizing against 
> stores and institutions who DON'T wish ALL CUSTOMERS - regardless of 
> their religion -- a religious greeting. That's coercion.

Carol responds:
If Christianity were exclusively a religious holiday, wishing you a
Merry Christmas *might* be discourteous. But it's become extremely
secularized in the last fifty years, to the point now that it's even
losing its name and distinctiveness. Most Christmas shows on
television, most Christmas-themed movies, most Christmas cards (even
the ones that wish people Merry Christmas rather than Happy Holidays
or Season's Greetings) feature Santa Claus or Christmas trees rather
than a Nativity scene or Madonna. *No one* who wishes another person a
Merry Christmas, so far as I know, is pushing their religion on the
other person. They're just expressing good wishes. As I've said, you
can wish me "Happy Samhain" and I won't be offended. I'll say "the
same to you" and appreciate your good wishes. And< IMO, "Merry
Christmas" from a stranger should be taken in the same spirit.

Carol, sad to think that a joyful greeting is now perceived as
coercion and wonders how many people other than Susan seriously hold
that position





From Schlobin at aol.com  Wed Jan  2 16:38:57 2008
From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176)
Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 16:38:57 -0000
Subject: coercion
In-Reply-To: <flgcg6+mdsv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <flgen1+m974@eGroups.com>

 At any rate, I
> intended no offense. I'm not implying that you engage in immoral
> behavior. as for my falling in love with my "spouse"--my ex-husband is
> my *ex*-husband for good reasons.
> 
> Carol, thinking we should all count our blessings
>

The point I was making is that I didn't choose to fall in love with a 
certain person....

But you fell in love with your ex husband before you married him, yes?
Or did you get married for another reason?

Sorry, but I am perplexed here...Susan




From Schlobin at aol.com  Wed Jan  2 16:43:32 2008
From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176)
Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 16:43:32 -0000
Subject: coercion
In-Reply-To: <flgel1+56fa@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <flgevk+lrms@eGroups.com>

> Carol, sad to think that a joyful greeting is now perceived as
> coercion and wonders how many people other than Susan seriously hold
> that position
>


I don't think that someone wishing ME individually Merry Christmas is 
being coercive.

I assume (for the most part) that they haven't thought the whole thing 
through, and are wishing me well.

The coercive part is when you try to force employees in a store through 
policy to say "Merry Christmas."

And do I see it as part of the dominant culture, and is that depressing?
(the individual greeting). No, I don't usually get depressed....

I like the Christmas season. I celebrate Christmas for a number of 
reasons. The children enjoy it. It reminds me of positive associations 
of my own traditional childhood. Many of the symbols ARE pagan 
symbols..candles, trees, wreaths, gift giving, Deck the Halls is a 
wonderfully pagan carol....so......

Susan






From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Jan  2 16:46:45 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 16:46:45 -0000
Subject: coercion
In-Reply-To: <flgen1+m974@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <flgf5l+nt6l@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "susanmcgee48176"
<Schlobin at ...> wrote:
>
>  At any rate, I
> > intended no offense. I'm not implying that you engage in immoral
> > behavior. as for my falling in love with my "spouse"--my ex-husband is
> > my *ex*-husband for good reasons.
> > 
> > Carol, thinking we should all count our blessings
> >
> 
> The point I was making is that I didn't choose to fall in love with
a certain person....
> 
> But you fell in love with your ex husband before you married him,
yes? Or did you get married for another reason?
> 
> Sorry, but I am perplexed here...Susan
>
Carol:
Ergh. I thought I was in love, but I was also nineteen when I got
engaged and thought I was being grown up and independent by getting
married at barely twenty. A big mistake with consequences lasting to
this very day. (As for "spouse," it's one of those generic words that
I hate--"sibling" is another. He was my husband, but I should never
have married him. Enough said as I don't like to talk about my
personal life in a public forum.

Carol, still determined to count her blessings and wondering when her
resolution to do things on time (a "positively" worded form of "stop
procrastinating") will kick in




From jillily3g at yahoo.com  Wed Jan  2 16:57:39 2008
From: jillily3g at yahoo.com (Beth)
Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 16:57:39 -0000
Subject: audiobooks and iPods
Message-ID: <flgfq3+ka0c@eGroups.com>

Since my youngest and I were driving six hours to see my parents last 
weekend, we tried to load Deathly Hallows on her iPod. It was a 
disaster. Some of the disks didn't copy correctly into iTunes and at 
least one disk had nonconsecutive numbers instead of chapter titles for 
selection names. 

Any suggestions for how we can fix this?

Thanks,
Beth




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Jan  2 17:01:42 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 17:01:42 -0000
Subject: coercion
In-Reply-To: <flgevk+lrms@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <flgg1m+nusf@eGroups.com>

Susan:
> I don't think that someone wishing ME individually Merry Christmas
is being coercive.

Carol:
Good.
> 
Susan:
> I assume (for the most part) that they haven't thought the whole
thing through, and are wishing me well.

Carol:
Hm. If you wished me "Happy Yule," I'd be glad for the good wishes.
Nothing to think over, and who cares that I don't celebrate Yule
except to the extent that it's become merged with Christmas ("yuletide
carols, fa la la la la la la la la"). Nothing to think through that I
can see.
> 
Susan:
> The coercive part is when you try to force employees in a store
through policy to say "Merry Christmas."

Carol:
And it's not coercive to force employees to say "Happy holidays"
against their will even to customers who would prefer that greeting? I
think employers should let the employee use the greeting of the
employee's choice, with due regard to the preferences of customers who
obviously don't celebrate a particular holiday (for example, not
wishing people wearing a Star of David a Merry Christmas).

It's just sad, IMO, that people have become so sensitive that they
take offense at a Christmas greeting and that employers have fallen
into the trap of thinking that customers prefer it. I wonder, BTW, if
part of the problem in the U.S. is that people start celebrating
Christmas prematurely, putting up their Christmas trees at
Thanksgiving, so that "the holidays" has come to mean the period from
Thanksgiving to New Year's Day (in a few regions, possibly, clear till
Epiphany or Three Kings' Day). That Hanukkah comes at around the same
time is also a factor. If it were celebrated in September, we might
not be having this discussion. Might as well wish each other "Happy
December" and be done with it.

Carol, who still does not like to be wished "happy holidays" and
thinks that political correctness is fast becoming the "dominant
culture" to which we're all supposed to submit meekly





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Jan  2 17:05:36 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 17:05:36 -0000
Subject: coercion
In-Reply-To: <flgg1m+nusf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <flgg90+gb3t@eGroups.com>

Carol earlier:
> And it's not coercive to force employees to say "Happy holidays"
against their will even to customers who would prefer that greeting? 

Carol now:
I meant "prefer another greeting," specifically "Merry Christmas."

Carol, who probably didn't need to make the correction because you
knew what I meant but likes to say what she means when possible




From macloudt at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Jan  2 17:43:21 2008
From: macloudt at yahoo.co.uk (Mary Ann)
Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 17:43:21 -0000
Subject: Christmas/holiday plays/Flint Street Nativity
In-Reply-To: <BAY138-W418B7D1D22A9407DEAB521B2520@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <flgifp+tseo@eGroups.com>

Lee wrote:

> "Flint Street" got such rave reviews I went looking for it. It's at 
IMDB http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0228306/ but not Amazon (US). 
http://tvshowsondvd.com/ refused to list it as well. :(

Thanks for this info on The Flint Street Nativity.  It was out in 
1999?  Sheesh, time flies!  Your mentioning Amazon US made me look on 
Amazon.co.uk again, and, lo and behold, it's now available on DVD.  I 
can't afford to buy anything except food at the moment but I'll be sure 
to buy it before Christmas next year.  I highly recommend this DVD to 
anyone of any belief.  It's hilarious.

Mary Ann, who checked her bank balance today and whimpered "meep" in a 
soft, squeaky voice




From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Wed Jan  2 17:44:38 2008
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 17:44:38 -0000
Subject: "Auld Lang Syne" (Was: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"?)
In-Reply-To: <flgdt6+voum@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <flgii6+l2ea@eGroups.com>

> Carol:
> That's good to hear. But what about the people under forty, 
especially
> Americans? I heard a commentator on "The Today Show" or one of 
those
> morning programs (I was channel-switching) saying that she was glad
> someone or other was doing an instrumental version of "Auld Lang 
Syne"
> because "nobody knows the words." Obviously, she was speaking for
> herself (I'm guessing she doesn't even know the meaning of the 
title),
> but how accurate is her assumption? Are we losing yet another 
tradition?

Magpie:
Not sure, but I'm under 40 still and sang it on New Year's Eve!

Though I think there are probably people still older who ask, as 
Harry did in "When Harry Met Sally" "What does this song mean? My 
whole life I've wondered what this song meant. Should old 
aquaintance be forgot. Does that mean that we should forget our old 
aquaintance or does it mean if we have forgotten them we should 
remember them, which is impossible because we already forgot them?"

Or something like that.:-)

-m





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed Jan  2 18:03:40 2008
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 18:03:40 -0000
Subject: coercion
In-Reply-To: <flgg1m+nusf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <flgjls+qes0@eGroups.com>


> Carol:
> And it's not coercive to force employees to say "Happy holidays"
> against their will even to customers who would prefer that greeting?

Pippin:
I don't think it's fair to ask employees make assumptions (based on
what?) about what kind of greeting their customers would prefer. Let
management make the decision and take the heat, since they obviously
can't please everybody. From what you said, it bothers you that "Happy
Holidays" seems transparently commercial whereas  "Merry Christmas"
sounds heartfelt and you can't understand why anyone would be offended
by it because so much of Christmas is secular anyway. 

Thank goodness I've never had to deal with much anti-Semitism in the
US, but my parents did, and yes they did find reminders of the
Christmas season offensive,even Santa Claus and Christmas trees,
because in their day it was often the occasion for anti-Semitic
sermons. If oversensitivity is the price we pay for putting those
days to an end, I think it's a small one. 
 
Pippin




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Wed Jan  2 20:38:02 2008
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 20:38:02 -0000
Subject: "Auld Lang Syne" (Was: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"?)
In-Reply-To: <flgii6+l2ea@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <flgsna+35lb@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "sistermagpie" <sistermagpie at ...> wrote:
>
> > Carol:
> > That's good to hear. But what about the people under forty, 
> especially
> > Americans? I heard a commentator on "The Today Show" or one of 
> those
> > morning programs (I was channel-switching) saying that she was glad
> > someone or other was doing an instrumental version of "Auld Lang 
> Syne"
> > because "nobody knows the words." Obviously, she was speaking for
> > herself (I'm guessing she doesn't even know the meaning of the 
> title),
> > but how accurate is her assumption? Are we losing yet another 
> tradition?
> 
> Magpie:
> Not sure, but I'm under 40 still and sang it on New Year's Eve!
> 
> Though I think there are probably people still older who ask, as 
> Harry did in "When Harry Met Sally" "What does this song mean? My 
> whole life I've wondered what this song meant. Should old 
> aquaintance be forgot. Does that mean that we should forget our old 
> aquaintance or does it mean if we have forgotten them we should 
> remember them, which is impossible because we already forgot them?"
> 
> Or something like that.:-)

Geoff:
Courtesy of Google:

AULD LANG SYNE

Words adapated from a traditional song
by Rabbie Burns (1759-96)

Should auld acquaintance be forgot,
And never brought to mind?
Should auld acquaintance be forgot,
And auld lang syne?

CHORUS:
For auld lang syne, my dear,
For auld lang syne,
We'll tak a cup of kindness yet,
For auld lang syne!

And surely ye'll be your pint-stowp,
And surely I'll be mine,
And we'll tak a cup o kindness yet,
For auld lang syne!

We twa hae run about the braes,
And pou'd the gowans fine,
But we've wander'd monie a weary fit,
Sin auld lang syne.

We twa hae paidl'd in the burn
Frae morning sun till dine,
But seas between us braid hae roar'd
Sin auld lang syne.

And there's a hand my trusty fiere,
And gie's a hand o thine,
And we'll tak a right guid-willie waught,
For auld lang syne

Meanings

auld lang syne - times gone by
be - pay for
braes - hills
braid - broad
burn - stream
dine - dinner time
fiere - friend
fit - foot
gowans - daisies
guid-willie waught - goodwill drink
monie - many
morning sun - noon
paidl't - paddled
pint-stowp - pint tankard
pou'd - pulled
twa - two





From alexisnguyen at gmail.com  Wed Jan  2 20:52:10 2008
From: alexisnguyen at gmail.com (P. Alexis Nguyen)
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 15:52:10 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] "Auld Lang Syne" (Was: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"?)
In-Reply-To: <flgdt6+voum@eGroups.com>
References: <flfq0f+tlkv@eGroups.com> <flgdt6+voum@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b6e131bf0801021252t1953fcadn5486960672cab8ed@mail.gmail.com>

Carol:
> That's good to hear. But what about the people under forty, especially
> Americans? I heard a commentator on "The Today Show" or one of those
> morning programs (I was channel-switching) saying that she was glad
> someone or other was doing an instrumental version of "Auld Lang Syne"
> because "nobody knows the words." Obviously, she was speaking for
> herself (I'm guessing she doesn't even know the meaning of the title),
> but how accurate is her assumption? Are we losing yet another tradition?

I'm about to turn 25, well below the 40 mark, and all of my friends
are around there. That being said, most of us can sing at least the
first verse of Auld Lang Syne - if stuck having to sing it, I could
probably actually sing the whole thing. However, being that none of us
really do the pop the champagne, kiss your significant other, etc
thing, no one sings it - let's just say that the parties that most of
us attend tend to be of the smaller, stranger-less variety where
random singing might only occur if the song was related to the current
conversation.

That particular NYE celebration is nice and special and still holds
true in many places - I'm pretty sure that some my friends sang it
when they went to a hotel NYE celebration last year - but many of the
people I knew who was at a place where the song was sung was there
under duress, whether due to their significant other's desire or
whatever.

~Ali



From ben_da_bear at yahoo.com  Wed Jan  2 16:58:55 2008
From: ben_da_bear at yahoo.com (ben_da_bear)
Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 16:58:55 -0000
Subject: JUST SOMETHING I SAW...
Message-ID: <flgfsf+5jcn@eGroups.com>

If you have any interest in prophecy as far as it pertains to America,
here's a site you wont want to miss.  It has an index at the top of
its pages that have twelve different articles that really hit the nail
on the head, as far as what's taking place in America, and as far as
what Scripture says is yet to come.

http://www.TheAmericanNightmare.org/163_The_Great_Abyss_A-D.html

Be sure and click through the other sections of this report to see the
other 80 or so articles that might interest you.

ben_da_bear




From Mhochberg at aol.com  Thu Jan  3 03:14:55 2008
From: Mhochberg at aol.com (Mhochberg at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 22:14:55 EST
Subject: 2 Christmas seasons
Message-ID: <c5d.246a35f8.34adad2f@aol.com>

Tonks:
I love Christmas so much, and as a Child and later as an Atheist 
always  started celebrating the season on the day after Thanksgiving, 
so when I  became a Christian and learned about Advent, I just 
couldn't get into the no  decoration part of it. So I love the 
secular commercial Christmas. And, of  course, I love the religious 
Christmas. Combine them and I can celebrate  from the day after 
Thanksgiving to January 6th!! The best of both worlds!  


Mary:
I think of Advent not just as waiting, but as preparing. With that in mind,  
we are waiting and preparing for Christmas to arrive. We begin  
decorating/baking/etc at little at a time until all the preparations are done by  December 
24. Then we celebrate 12 days of Christmas, when we spend lots of time  with 
friends and family. 
 
For us, there are little holidays and celebrations in Advent too: St  Lucia, 
Our Lady of Guadeloupe, St Nicolas Day, and dear to my hear, solstice.  (If I 
can, I celebrate the new dawn from a hilltop, watching the sun rise and  
sharing hot chocolate with friends.)
 
It all ends on January 6th, celebrating the Epiphany. After that  we begin 
taking down decorations and cleaning up. Sometimes, for  safety reasons, the 
main tree has to come earlier but the rest stays  up.
 
---Mary
"Live now, procrastinate  later."



**************************************See AOL's top rated recipes 
(http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From Schlobin at aol.com  Thu Jan  3 03:28:01 2008
From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176)
Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 03:28:01 -0000
Subject: audiobooks and iPods
In-Reply-To: <flgfq3+ka0c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <flhko1+pet8@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Beth" <jillily3g at ...> wrote:
>
> Since my youngest and I were driving six hours to see my parents last 
> weekend, we tried to load Deathly Hallows on her iPod. It was a 
> disaster. Some of the disks didn't copy correctly into iTunes and at 
> least one disk had nonconsecutive numbers instead of chapter titles 
for 
> selection names. 
> 
> Any suggestions for how we can fix this?
> 
> Thanks,
> Beth
>

Yes, tell me, too! I tried the same thing and it was awful!

Susan




From n2fgc at arrl.net  Thu Jan  3 05:27:51 2008
From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Lee Storm(God Is The Healing Force))
Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 00:27:51 -0500
Subject: Crazy Search, but someone's gotta have it!
Message-ID: <000901c84dc9$62aeb080$67a4a8c0@FRODO>

And the thing I'm looking for is the theme for a 1983 TV series that had a
six or seven episode run on ABC.  It was called "Ryan's Four," it was a
Henry Winkler production, and the closest thing I can find is sheet music
which doesn't help me at all.

I have a very ancient, bettered copy which was recorded on an exceptionally
cheap cassette recorder and transferred a couple more generations and
finally was push over to the computer.  It sounds ghastly!

So, if anyone has a decent first or second gen copy and can e-mail it to me,
contact me off list and I'll give you my GMail address.

Anyone who can find this relic shall receive my thanks, some butterbeer and
Honeydukes Chocolate!

Thanks,

Lee :-)

Do not walk behind me,    | Lee Storm
I may not care to lead;   | N2FGC
Do not walk before me,    | n2fgc at arrl.net (or)
I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at optonline.net
Walk beside me, and be my friend.





From n2fgc at arrl.net  Thu Jan  3 10:24:23 2008
From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Lee Storm(God Is The Healing Force))
Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 05:24:23 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: "Auld Lang Syne" (Was: What's wrong with
 "Merry Christmas"?)
In-Reply-To: <flgsna+35lb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000001c84df2$cf8ae5b0$67a4a8c0@FRODO>

[From Geoff Bannister]:
|Meanings
|
|auld lang syne - times gone by
|be - pay for
|braes - hills
|braid - broad
|burn - stream
|dine - dinner time
|fiere - friend
|fit - foot
|gowans - daisies
|guid-willie waught - goodwill drink
|monie - many
|morning sun - noon
|paidl't - paddled
|pint-stowp - pint tankard
|pou'd - pulled
|twa - two

[Lee]:
Ah--let's make this easier!  I got this from a Robert Burns page and don't
remember the link.

Translation of the song Auld Lang Syne
Old Long Past

Chorus.
And for old long past, my joy (sweetheart),
For old long past,
We will take a cup of kindness yet,
For old long past,

Should old acquaintance be forgot,
And never brought to mind?
Should old acquaintance be forgot,
And days of old long past.

And surely you will pay for your pint-vessel!
And surely I will pay for mine!
And we will take a cup of kindness yet,
For old long past.

We two have run about the hillsides
And pulled the wild daisies fine;
But we have wandered many a weary foot
Since old long past.

We two have paddled in the stream,
>From morning sun till noon;
But seas between us broad have roared
Since old long past.

And there is a hand, my trusty friend!
And give me a hand of yours!
And we will take a right good-will drink,
For old long past.

Cheers,

Lee :-)





From gbadams_77 at charter.net  Thu Jan  3 20:30:04 2008
From: gbadams_77 at charter.net (bzbbaba)
Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 20:30:04 -0000
Subject: coercion
In-Reply-To: <flgg90+gb3t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fljgkc+84q8@eGroups.com>

Beverly says (coming out of her lurking status):

Employers do coerce their employees to say certain things.  My 
husband works at a warehouse type store and has to answer the phone 
with, "We're having a great day here at (name of store), my name is 
(John) how may I help you."  I have called up a couple of times, 
heard him say it and just about want to barf.  The managers are 
kidding themselves if ANY customer thinks the employees are having a 
great day.  

So coercing the employees to say a certain greeting around the 
holidays is management trying to placate customers and find a middle 
of the road answer to a puzzling question:  "When our stores are 
decked out in decorations (because we have customers who come in 
droves to buy them--even in August) of a certain quasi-religious 
holiday, what do we say to them during this season?"

Interestingly enough, during Ramadan my husband tried to give an Arab 
customer (he knew he was Arabic; he wasn't trying to profile him) an 
Arabic greeting ("Al salaam alikum").  When the customer asked my 
husband "Are you Muslim?" and my husband said that he wasn't, the 
customer told him he should not be giving the greeting.  This 
customer refuses to say anything in Arabic now to my husband, who had 
been on friendlier terms with him before and conversed a bit with him 
in Arabic.

Which makes me wonder if Christmas had not been overtaken by secular 
commercial interests and wasn't the mega-holiday it is now would we 
even be having this conversation???  Probably not.

Beverly (who thinks that people are constantly evolving socially and 
that eventually we will be able to say to each other, "Live and let 
live" without getting our knickers in a twist)  
 





From specialcritters at hotmail.com  Thu Jan  3 20:58:46 2008
From: specialcritters at hotmail.com (Lee Truslow)
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 15:58:46 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Flint Street Nativity/Amazon (long)
In-Reply-To: <flgifp+tseo@eGroups.com>
References: <BAY138-W418B7D1D22A9407DEAB521B2520@phx.gbl>
 <flgifp+tseo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <BAY138-W9550C4957F07D4A0AB141B2530@phx.gbl>


I asked Amazon US about carrying these DVDs.If anybody would like to join me  in asking for it, I just sent them a copy of the Amazon UK URL ( http://www.amazon.co.uk/Flint-Street-Nativity-Frank-Skinner/dp/B000AOX7BA/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1199393855&sr=8-1 ) Here's a snip of the reply:
We do expand our selection frequently and want to know what products you'd like us to offer. You can submit your product suggestions at this URL:  http://www.amazon.com/o/subst/stores/catalog-builder/index.html  Our Amazon.com Alerts service will notify you when new books, music, magazines, videos, and DVDs that match your interests are about to be released. To sign up for notification, just visit this URL:  http://www.amazon.com/alerts/  We do expand our selection frequently, so you may want to check back from time to time to see if we have added this item to our web site. Also, you may submit your request for this product at this URL:  http://www.amazon.com/o/subst/stores/catalog-builder/index.html Please note that we cannot guarantee that we will be able to source this item, but we do want to know what our customers are seeking.  For future reference, the quickest way to find most items on our web site is to enter a few keywords into the search box on the left-hand side of our home page. To restrict your search to a specific type of product, just click the drop-down menu above the search box and select the product category. Click "Go!" to see the results of your search.  Further , At the bottom of the product detail page of most items on our web site, you should see a blue Feedback or Suggestion Box where you can submit your request for the specific product you want.
  






_________________________________________________________________
The best games are on Xbox 360.  Click here for a special offer on an Xbox 360 Console.
http://www.xbox.com/en-US/hardware/wheretobuy/

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From Schlobin at aol.com  Fri Jan  4 05:59:42 2008
From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176)
Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 05:59:42 -0000
Subject: coercion
In-Reply-To: <fljgkc+84q8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <flki0e+pgg6@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "bzbbaba" <gbadams_77 at ...> 
wrote:
>
> Beverly says (coming out of her lurking status):
> 
> Employers do coerce their employees to say certain things.  My 
> husband works at a warehouse type store and has to answer the phone 
> with, "We're having a great day here at (name of store), my name is 
> (John) how may I help you."  I have called up a couple of times, 
> heard him say it and just about want to barf.  The managers are 
> kidding themselves if ANY customer thinks the employees are having 
a 
> great day.  
> 
> So coercing the employees to say a certain greeting around the 
> holidays is management trying to placate customers and find a 
middle 
> of the road answer to a puzzling question:  "When our stores are 
> decked out in decorations (because we have customers who come in 
> droves to buy them--even in August) of a certain quasi-religious 
> holiday, what do we say to them during this season?"
> 
> Interestingly enough, during Ramadan my husband tried to give an 
Arab 
> customer (he knew he was Arabic; he wasn't trying to profile him) 
an 
> Arabic greeting ("Al salaam alikum").  When the customer asked my 
> husband "Are you Muslim?" and my husband said that he wasn't, the 
> customer told him he should not be giving the greeting.  This 
> customer refuses to say anything in Arabic now to my husband, who 
had 
> been on friendlier terms with him before and conversed a bit with 
him 
> in Arabic.
> 
> Which makes me wonder if Christmas had not been overtaken by 
secular 
> commercial interests and wasn't the mega-holiday it is now would we 
> even be having this conversation???  Probably not.
> 
> Beverly (who thinks that people are constantly evolving socially 
and 
> that eventually we will be able to say to each other, "Live and let 
> live" without getting our knickers in a twist)
>

Very interesting, Beverly.

I agree.

Some corporations employ "secret shoppers" who test the service to 
customers.

I've read some of the criteria..there's some things such as if a 
customer comes within a certain distance, the employees in a store 
are required to greet the customer.

Employees who are checking out customers are required to say "did you 
find everything you were looking for?", and are required to say 
things like "have a nice day." Or they are required to say "how are 
you doing today?"

I find that when I figure out that this is a requirement I don't 
bother to really respond, I just try to be polite, and say just fine 
and you?

Employees are required not just to tell customers where a product is 
located but to take them over to the product and point it out...

Etc., etc., etc.

Now, I think it's absurd to have people say "we're having a great day 
here".... but I ran a 24 hour crisis line for many years, and we had 
some problems with staff/volunteers answering the phone in a bored, 
tone..when someone would call seeking help, some people would say 
rude or insensitive things...when another professional would call and 
say "this is so and so", some people would say "uh-huh"....or "what?" 

We did have to establish standards of practice and how to speak to 
people...to ensure that we were delivering the best possible service 
and giving the best possible impression of our organization...

Susan
Who still believes in caring, respect, and compassion, which means 
that you greet people in the way they want to be greeted, and you are 
careful not to further marginalize people who are oppressed, 
depressed or in trouble...




From predigirl1 at yahoo.com  Fri Jan  4 06:45:01 2008
From: predigirl1 at yahoo.com (Alex Hogan)
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 22:45:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] OotP Standee! Happy X-mas!
In-Reply-To: <bf7.24807653.34a9eeda@aol.com>
Message-ID: <726775.58104.qm@web53005.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Good for you for not letting them be thrown away! My kids have things that make all the other kids go "WOW!!!". But I had them in my "grown-up" apartment before I ever married my Hubby, and it tended to freak out all the visitors to my place. I told my "at the time fiancee'" that I had to have a place to display my HP goodies. He loved it! He already had all the HP books to date. Then 5 months later, when we got the kids (eek!) people thought I had all that for them. HA!  That's when I break out the HP tattoo on my calf. Gosh. I'm a geek. I love it!
   
  Alex Hogan

OctobersChild48 at aol.com wrote:
          

Alex Hogan wrote:

> I love my sister-in-law! For years now I have gone
> begging and pleading 
> at every store that had them, for all the large
> displays of HP when the 
> DVD's come out. I have one HECK of a collection
> (running out of room in 
> my house)! But Lynell topped them this year! She got
> me an unopened 5 
> foot by 4 foot display of "Order" complete with a
> large prophesy sphere 
> with Lord Thingy in it, that had to be attatched to
> it! And a foot long 
> OotP wand pen! I love her!
> 

Sandy:

I have that one too, as well as four others from the last two movies. I work 
at a retail establishment where we sell the videos and get all of the 
promotional material accompanying them. I am fortunate enough to be the only true 
fanatic there so they let me have it all. I did have a bit of a problem 
getting the ones for OOP. I had already put my dibs in for it back in July when the 
movie was released to theaters, but we got new management in the interim. 
Outsiders, like yourself, had asked for them too, so Mike's solution was to 
throw them away. I had to go over his head, but I got them. 

Sandy, running out of room too.

**************************************See AOL's top rated recipes 
(http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)

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From predigirl1 at yahoo.com  Fri Jan  4 06:52:37 2008
From: predigirl1 at yahoo.com (Alex Hogan)
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 22:52:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: OotP Standee! Happy X-mas!
In-Reply-To: <810065.3004.qm@web63412.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <693673.47443.qm@web53008.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

You rock on girl! There are still 2 movies to go, and he won't make the same mistake twice!
  Oh yeah, I met a girl at Hastings that was on her way to get the tattoo "I Solemnly Swear That I Am Up To No Good" around her ankle. That is devotion.  We all rock!
   
  Alex Hogan 
   
   
   
   
    SwaSheryll Townsend <s_ings at yahoo.com> wrote:
          :
> >
> > Sheryll:
> > 
> > I'm so jealous! We had a standee at work for the
> DVD
> > display and didn't even open it. Pretty much
> everyone
> > knew I'd take it home, except... we have a new
> person
> > on staff and he cleaned up the back room. 
> > 
> > Yeah, you guessed it. The next time I came to work
> > he'd tossed it in the dumpster. *sigh*
> 
> Tonks:
> 
> FIRE HIM!!! What an idiot!! Not a HP fan, for sure. 
> 
> Where are those death eaters when you need one!!
> 
Sheryll:

Gotta forgive him, he's new. He wasn't there when the
special edition box set of DVDs came and didn't see me
drooling over it and petting the box. :D

He'll learn. Like I say, he's new. He has lots of bad
habits we have to break him of. And I have to be nice
- he went to grade school with my daughter. 

You know, when he becomes Assistant Manager in the
next few months, will be very weird having someone as
my boss that I knew when he was 6! <vbg>

Sheryll, off to have lobster for lunch and sleep
before work

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From tonks_op at yahoo.com  Fri Jan  4 07:17:52 2008
From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks)
Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 07:17:52 -0000
Subject: OotP Standee! Happy X-mas!
In-Reply-To: <726775.58104.qm@web53005.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <flkmj0+tac3@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Alex Hogan <predigirl1 at ...> 
wrote:
>
 I told my "at the time fiancee'" that I had to have a place to 
display my HP goodies. He loved it! He already had all the HP books 
to date. Then 5 months later, when we got the kids (eek!) people 
thought I had all that for them. HA!  That's when I break out the HP 
tattoo on my calf. Gosh. I'm a geek. I love it!

Tonks:

Isn't it annoying when all those boring adults look at you when you 
go to the toy store to get the latest Harry Potter action figures 
(or even the Elmo doll) and they say something about the child that 
they thing you are getting it for? I am getting it for ME!! No child 
is going to so much as touch it! I have a very large HP collection 
and can't wait to have a place to actually display it all. I really 
want one of those really expensive statues of Dobbie. Not the one 
with him and the sock, but the life size one. Once I am rich enough 
to actually buy a house, I hope to have one whole room that is 
nothing but Harry Potter with everything on display. 

Those same type of BORING adults are the ones that think that 
Halloween is only for children. And they don't want to dress up for 
the movies. Some folks are just too old. One should never outgrow 
their inner child. IMO.

Tonks_op




From jnferr at gmail.com  Fri Jan  4 13:08:54 2008
From: jnferr at gmail.com (Janette)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 07:08:54 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: coercion
In-Reply-To: <flgg1m+nusf@eGroups.com>
References: <flgevk+lrms@eGroups.com> <flgg1m+nusf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8ee758b40801040508s3a4382a0mc7d99fbded652e7a@mail.gmail.com>

>
> Carol:
> I wonder, BTW, if
> part of the problem in the U.S. is that people start celebrating
> Christmas prematurely, putting up their Christmas trees at
> Thanksgiving, so that "the holidays" has come to mean the period from
> Thanksgiving to New Year's Day (in a few regions, possibly, clear till
> Epiphany or Three Kings' Day). That Hanukkah comes at around the same
> time is also a factor. If it were celebrated in September, we might
> not be having this discussion. Might as well wish each other "Happy
> December" and be done with it.
>
> Carol, who still does not like to be wished "happy holidays" and
> thinks that political correctness is fast becoming the "dominant
> culture" to which we're all supposed to submit meekly


montims:

Just butting in here briefly - I said earlier that as a Brit in America, I
have assumed the habit of saying "Happy Holidays" to people - it makes sense
to me because 1) I am not christian, so why would I wish merry christmas
when I don't celebrate it religiously, although I enjoy the Yule trappings
of it, and love the gift giving?  2) I don't know the religion of the person
I am speaking to;  but most importantly, 3) just about everybody I am
wishing it to (including shopworkers) will be having one extra day off work,
if not more.

I miss Boxing Day and Christmas Eve being a holiday, as it is in Europe, and
for the Brits on the list, I get 10 paid holidays a year, and 2 paid
"personal days", which is supposed to be part of a great benefits package.
In England, in my last job, I had 25 paid holidays, and 13 paid flexi days,
and that was a basic package.  However, I took my 2 personal days on the
Friday before xmas, and xmas eve, so had a nice long break, then had new
year's eve off.  Most of my colleagues had saved up their days and took off
over a week, as did a lot of my friends outside of work.  So I wish them
happy holidays with the very best of intentions - I hope that after working
hard each year they will have the opportunity to relax, enjoy being with
friends and family, and forget about work for a little while at least.  In
my mind, nothing political or religious (or offensive) about it.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From s_ings at yahoo.com  Fri Jan  4 15:49:17 2008
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 15:49:17 -0000
Subject: Happy Birthday, Sam!
Message-ID: <fllkht+bk25@eGroups.com>

Sorry folks, but these decorations will have to go. We have a birthday 
to celebrate!

*takes down the trees and angels and snowflakes and other various 
holiday decorations, replacing them balloons and streamers*

The pretty lights can stay. :)

Today's birthday honouree is Sam. Birthday wishes can be sent here to 
directly to Sam at: hermionesmum at yahoo.com

There's food and drink on the tables. Don't forget to leave some cake 
for Sam. :)

Happy Birthday, Sam! May the day bring everything you wished for.

Sheryll the Birthday Elf




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri Jan  4 19:20:50 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 19:20:50 -0000
Subject: Copyright infringement question
Message-ID: <flm0ui+m1bq@eGroups.com>

I'm moving this post from the main list because I want to expand the
topic beyond the Hp books, fanfic, and JKR.

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Bart Lidofsky <bartl at ...> wrote:

> Bart:
> Here's an excellent site on the subject:
> http://www.chillingeffects.org/fanfic/notice.cgi?NoticeID=522
> 
> Note that there are also trademarks in play; for example, the
Sherlock Holmes stories are all in the public domain, but the
character is still trademarked, so if you tried to create derivative
fiction, you may find yourself under lawsuit for trademark violation.
Even JKR is not immune; when GOF was made in the media that must not
be named, she was the recipient of a lawsuit from a band called "The
Wyrd Sisters", whose name was trademarked, and did not want another
band with the same name appearing in GOF.
> 
> I don't have a list of precisely what is trademarked out of the HP
series, but with the Harry Potter merchandise, you can be sure it's a
 good portion of it. I'm trying to find a source, but I believe that
the Lexicon lawsuit involves trademarks as well as copyrights.

Carol responds:

My specific concern is not with fanfic but with the use of trademarks
and the names of celebrities in the manuscripts of novels intended for
publication. My novice authors, for example, have their characters
eating, for example, Big Macs, or wearing specified brands of clothing
to mark their good taste and wealth (or lack of either). One recent
manuscript contained a scene in which a Sears store cheated its
customers. (I suggested either omitting the scene, changing the store
name to an imaginary one, or consulting a permissions editor or lawyer
because it seemed to me that the writer was risking a lawsuit, not for
copyright infringement but for libel.)

I understand fair use with regard to quotations, having written plenty
of literary criticism, but the pervasive use of trademarks and
references to actual people in recent fiction has me confused. Please
don't answer unless you're well-informed on the question. (U.S law
would be the most pertinent.)

Can an author create an imaginary, unnamed mayor of New York living at
a specific time (pos-9/11) who's involved in a scandalous love affair
without defaming recent or current New York mayors? (I'm thinking of
Rudy Giuliani as I don't know the current mayor's name.) Again, the
writer seems to me to be risking a lawsuit for defamation of character
or libel. At least, the unnamed character should be a councilman (or
whatever), someone less identifiable than the mayor, or so it seems to me.

What about casual, neutral references to specific products that could
be read as endorsements of those products? What about references to
"the latest Tom Cruise movie"? Is a celebrity's name public property,
or is it protected in the same way that, say, song lyrics are?

And here's a hypothetical question, since it hasn't happened yet in
the books I edit. Could one character say to another, "Who do you
think you are, Severus Snape?" or "He's as creepy as Mad-Eye Moody"?

Carol, thanking Bart for the link but needing additional information
for her own clients




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri Jan  4 19:47:31 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 19:47:31 -0000
Subject: coercion
In-Reply-To: <8ee758b40801040508s3a4382a0mc7d99fbded652e7a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <flm2gj+driu@eGroups.com>

montims wrote:
<snip>
> I miss Boxing Day and Christmas Eve being a holiday, as it is in
Europe, <snip> Most of my colleagues had saved up their days and took
off over a week, as did a lot of my friends outside of work.  So I
wish them happy holidays with the very best of intentions - I hope
that after working hard each year they will have the opportunity to
relax, enjoy being with friends and family, and forget about work for
a little while at least.  Inmy mind, nothing political or religious
(or offensive) about it.

Carol:
If "Happy Holidays" is shorthand for "Merry Christmas and Happy New
Year," fine. What I find distasteful is "holiday" as a euphemism for
"Christmas." I was looking at a display in Safeway last night of items
that had been reduced for quick sale and found "holiday Barbie" in a
feminine version of a Santa suit, "holiday cookie cutters" (Santa and
Christmas trees), and "holiday ornaments" obviously designed for a
Christmas tree. I wanted those ornaments, darn it, because they were
beautiful (a pear, an apple, and I'm not sure what other piece of
fruit in the traditional Christmas colors of red, green, and gold) but
I couldn't bring myself to buy a box of ornaments that had been
falsely labeled by the manufacturers. (No one's going to buy them for
a Hanukkah tree or a Kwanzaa tree or a Ramadan tree, surely?) Finally,
the friend who was with me (who agrees with my sentiments but thinks
I'd do better to show more of a sense of humor and wish everybody
"Merry Christmas and Happy Ramahanukwanstice") suggested after we left
the store that I buy the ornaments and place them in a different box
("No! I keep ornaments in the box they belong in," I Monkishly
replied) or put a Christmas sticker over the "holiday ornaments"
label. I said I'd think about it because, darn it, those ornaments
will look really pretty on my rapidly drying Christmas tree and better
still on next year's, when I'll bite the bullet and pay eleven dollars
a foot (!!!!) for a freshly cut tree instead of buying a more
affordable but less fresh tree at Home Depot. BTW, I asked the cashier
and the bagger whether the store required them to say "Happy holidays"
and how they felt about it. They both said that the store had no
policy and they both wished their customers "Merry Christmas" and had
received no complaints. As my friend and I were leaving, the young
grocery bagger, who might have been eighteen, smiled and wished me
"Happy New Year" (specific holiday name; hooray!) and I wished them
both a Happy tenth day of Christmas. They laughed and said "Happy
Tenth Day of Christmas" back to me.

Carol, still debating whether to buy those ornaments and what to say
when I violate my principles by buying them




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri Jan  4 19:51:07 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 19:51:07 -0000
Subject: Happy Birthday, Sam!
In-Reply-To: <fllkht+bk25@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <flm2nb+nu96@eGroups.com>

-"Sheryll Townsend" wrote:
><snip>
> 
> *takes down the trees and angels and snowflakes and other various 
> holiday decorations, replacing them balloons and streamers*
> 
> The pretty lights can stay. :)
>
Carol:

"Holiday decorations." Sniff. Sigh. I'm fighting a lost cause.

And happy birthday, Sam. I'm not trying to dampen your celebration.

Carol, noting that the holiday the HP characters were celebrating was
canonically Christmas




From alexisnguyen at gmail.com  Fri Jan  4 19:53:18 2008
From: alexisnguyen at gmail.com (P. Alexis Nguyen)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 14:53:18 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Copyright infringement question
In-Reply-To: <flm0ui+m1bq@eGroups.com>
References: <flm0ui+m1bq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b6e131bf0801041153p2ddefa1fg23afe3a116a7c3f4@mail.gmail.com>

Ali:
I'm no lawyer, so one who is will be better suited for these
questions. However, having recently graduated with a business degree,
I do recall some similar issues arising in class - novels weren't
really involved, though, since my degree is in health care management.
Take that as you will.


Carol:
> Can an author create an imaginary, unnamed mayor of New York living at
> a specific time (pos-9/11) who's involved in a scandalous love affair
> without defaming recent or current New York mayors? (I'm thinking of
> Rudy Giuliani as I don't know the current mayor's name.) Again, the
> writer seems to me to be risking a lawsuit for defamation of character
> or libel. At least, the unnamed character should be a councilman (or
> whatever), someone less identifiable than the mayor, or so it seems to me.

Anyone can file a suit against someone else; it's really a matter of
whether the case is admissible in court. If you write a book
referencing a certain time, place & person, then, even without
mentioning a name, you could potentially be sued (in this case,
meaning go to court). However, two things work in your favour: one,
public figures do not generally bring suits against authors unless it
is something grossly wrong (i.e. would not be printed in publications
like the NY Times); two, if all the information presented could be
defended by saying that information was culled from reliable sources
of information (NY Times, WS Journal, biographies, etc) and then
incorporated into a fictionalized persona, it's potentially a good and
winnable defense - a lawyer working in this field would better be able
to cite precedence.


Carol:
> What about casual, neutral references to specific products that could
> be read as endorsements of those products? What about references to
> "the latest Tom Cruise movie"? Is a celebrity's name public property,
> or is it protected in the same way that, say, song lyrics are?

You can always go to court without obtaining permission to use a
copyright/trademark, but the simple truth is that no one will ever sue
for free [good] publicity.  As for the flippant "see the latest Tom
Cruise movie" remark, that doesn't infringe any rights that I can see.
Tom Cruise (as is JKR, etc) is a public persona, and references to
him, especially neutral ones, doesn't infringe any laws currently
being enforced...at least none that I've never heard about in my
classes. Now, if you were to make a power drink called Cruise Juice
(or something equally ridiculous) and tried to mass market it, that's
an entirely different issue - that infringes on trademark rights, etc,
but references to the person is different.


Carol:
> And here's a hypothetical question, since it hasn't happened yet in
> the books I edit. Could one character say to another, "Who do you
> think you are, Severus Snape?" or "He's as creepy as Mad-Eye Moody"?

This one, I must first say, is totally an opinion. However, again, I
think this isn't so much a matter of right to sue as a matter of
whether it's logical. It goes to the point of whether the HP
characters are integrated enough into popular culture that the name
references something other than just the characters. In other words,
like in referencing someone as Sherlock Holmes, you're referring to
characteristics of Holmes such his detective skills, and this is a
common enough reference that your average judge (though there are
special ones, like the ones that require women to go to court in
skirts & hose even in the dead of winter) won't rule against it just
because it's a matter of setting a bad precedence. However, at this
point, I would not say that any of the HP characters have yet obtain
the same Holmesian level of pop culture status.

Anyway, those are my two cents. I'm sorry that I only referenced the
very specific examples, but that's about all I can deal with in my
limited knowledge of the law (especially since most of that knowledge
is contained within the health care system and I'm mostly
extrapolating from drug copyright/patent info).

~Ali, who now works as an editor for training manuals so can't figure
out what she went to business school for



From s_ings at yahoo.com  Fri Jan  4 20:33:25 2008
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 15:33:25 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Holiday decorations (was Re: Happy Birthday, Sam!)
In-Reply-To: <flm2nb+nu96@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <256367.9746.qm@web63409.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

> -"Sheryll Townsend" wrote:
> ><snip>
> > 
> > *takes down the trees and angels and snowflakes
> and other various 
> > holiday decorations, replacing them balloons and
> streamers*
> > 
> > The pretty lights can stay. :)
> >
> Carol:
> 
> "Holiday decorations." Sniff. Sigh. I'm fighting a
> lost cause.
> 
> And happy birthday, Sam. I'm not trying to dampen
> your celebration.
> 
> Carol, noting that the holiday the HP characters
> were celebrating was
> canonically Christmas
> 
Sheryll:

*hands Carol a tissue and an plate of cookies*

While I agree that the HP characters were celebrating
Christmas, some of our list members may have been
celebrating other holidays, so the party room would
have put up decorations appropriate for each holiday.
I removed all holiday decorations except the pretty
lights because, well, pretty lights can suit just
about any celebration. <bg>

Sheryll

Join the fun at Convention Alley 2008



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From s_ings at yahoo.com  Fri Jan  4 20:55:44 2008
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 15:55:44 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Happy New Year's!
In-Reply-To: <flf7at+fk2u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <402183.16210.qm@web63412.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

Sheryll wrote:
> > 
> > I've had the pleasure of being a List Elf for a
> long time. I 
> rarely post to the main list anymore (mostly because
> you all get 
> there first  and are generally more eloquent!), but
> I read every 
> single post that members make. Sure, I'm continually
> behind but I'm 
> still reading! 
> > 
> > What's my point? There is none, really. I love
> these lists and 
> > everyone on them who has made my life richer. Each
> of you, in your 
> > own way, has done something to make my life more
> interesting or 
> more blessed. You've made me smile, sometimes cry,
> taught me things, 
> made  me think and - most importantly - made my life
> more complete. 
> > 
> > For that, I wish you all a most blessed and happy
> New Year!
> 
> 
> Tonks_op
> That sounds very eloquent to me. ;-) You put a tear
> in my eye. 
> I am glad that I met you. Here is a big New Years
> hug.[[Sheryll]] 
> Happy 2008 to you too! See you in Texas at the HP
> convention.
> 
Sheryll again:

I'm glad I had a chance to meet you, too.
Unfortunately, I'm not making it to Portus this
summer. Any chance you're coming to either Convention
Alley or Terminus? Maybe we could squeeze in time for
lunch or something?

Sheryll, who treasures each and every meeting with
list members

Join the fun at Convention Alley 2008



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From witherwing at sbcglobal.net  Fri Jan  4 22:54:36 2008
From: witherwing at sbcglobal.net (witherwings999)
Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 22:54:36 -0000
Subject: Have you ever written to JKR?
Message-ID: <flmdfc+7t2n@eGroups.com>

Hello all. I'd like to hear from people who have written to JKR - why you did, what you 
wrote, any response, etc. 

Just curious, Witherwing




From s.hayes at qut.edu.au  Fri Jan  4 23:13:49 2008
From: s.hayes at qut.edu.au (Sharon Hayes)
Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 09:13:49 +1000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Have you ever written to JKR?
In-Reply-To: <flmdfc+7t2n@eGroups.com>
References: <flmdfc+7t2n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3EBC8113FA09F449B6CC44C847E510911CDFC631D9@QUTEXMBX02.qut.edu.au>

Witherwing:
Hello all. I'd like to hear from people who have written to JKR - why you did, what you
wrote, any response, etc.

Sharon:
I emailed her publicist to ask for an interview and received a very nice reply back a few days later saying that she received so many requests and she only does selecteive interviews (read, with famous journos). I'd assume she also gets a lot of fanmail. I wouldn't think she'd answer them herself, nbut it might be worth a try - -who knows?





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Jan  5 00:42:29 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2008 00:42:29 -0000
Subject: Holiday decorations (was Re: Happy Birthday, Sam!)
In-Reply-To: <256367.9746.qm@web63409.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <flmjpl+irat@eGroups.com>

> Sheryll:
> 
> *hands Carol a tissue and an plate of cookies*
> 
> While I agree that the HP characters were celebrating Christmas,
some of our list members may have been celebrating other holidays, so
the party room would have put up decorations appropriate for each holiday.
> I removed all holiday decorations except the pretty lights because,
well, pretty lights can suit just about any celebration. <bg>
>
Carol:
Ah, but for some of us, "the holidays" aren't over till Epiphany
(Jaunaury 6), so if we're being truly inclusive, the decorations
should still be up. Today is the tenth day of Christmas (or the
elventh, depending on how you count). The Hanukkah decorations no
doubt came down weeks ago, but in my apartment complex, the vast
majority of people still have their lights and trees and (fake!)
snowmen up and lit.

Carol, thanking Sheryll for the tissues and cookies, both of which are
momentarily in short supply in her house




From s_ings at yahoo.com  Sat Jan  5 04:23:00 2008
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 23:23:00 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Holiday decorations (was Re: Happy Birthday, Sam!)
In-Reply-To: <flmjpl+irat@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <123650.42712.qm@web63414.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

> > Sheryll:
> > 
> > *hands Carol a tissue and an plate of cookies*
> > 
> > While I agree that the HP characters were
> celebrating Christmas,
> some of our list members may have been celebrating
> other holidays, so
> the party room would have put up decorations
> appropriate for each holiday.
> > I removed all holiday decorations except the
> pretty lights because,
> well, pretty lights can suit just about any
> celebration. <bg>
> >
> Carol:
> Ah, but for some of us, "the holidays" aren't over
> till Epiphany
> (Jaunaury 6), so if we're being truly inclusive, the
> decorations
> should still be up. Today is the tenth day of
> Christmas (or the
> elventh, depending on how you count). The Hanukkah
> decorations no
> doubt came down weeks ago, but in my apartment
> complex, the vast
> majority of people still have their lights and trees
> and (fake!)
> snowmen up and lit.
> 
> Carol, thanking Sheryll for the tissues and cookies,
> both of which are
> momentarily in short supply in her house
> 
Sheryll again:

*hands over more cookies* 
We've got lots more of those left here. And being
married to chef means one of us will make more when
the containers are empty. :)

I just figured replacing things with birthday
decorations would be a nice thing to do, so that the
birthday wasn't overshadowed by the rest. I still have
my tree up, but that's more due to a)my being sick and
b)my being a serious procrastinator who probably won't
take it down 'til closer to the end of the month
anyway. 

Ewww, those fake snowmen. And the tacky plastic, light
up candles. Hubby thinks there should be a city by-law
limiting them to 1 per 20 block radius. :D

Sheryll, who says she can be meaner than the Grinch,
but isn't really (but ssshhhhh, don't tell anyone -
it'll blow my reputation!)

Join the fun at Convention Alley 2008



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From tonks_op at yahoo.com  Sat Jan  5 05:57:21 2008
From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks)
Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2008 05:57:21 -0000
Subject: Happy 12th Night
Message-ID: <fln681+h18@eGroups.com>

OK. all the other Holidays are over, right? So here is a Happy 12th day 
of Christmas to anyone who want to enjoy it. Carol, Geoff and ???

Went to a gather yesterday and gave and got some presents. And going to 
another one later today. We use to have a proper 12th night party when 
we had a Deacon who had a Harpsichord. What fun that was. The Three 
Kings come on Sunday. 

Tonks_op




From tonks_op at yahoo.com  Sat Jan  5 06:26:47 2008
From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks)
Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2008 06:26:47 -0000
Subject: Have you ever written to JKR?
In-Reply-To: <3EBC8113FA09F449B6CC44C847E510911CDFC631D9@QUTEXMBX02.qut.edu.au>
Message-ID: <fln7v7+rmov@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Sharon Hayes <s.hayes at ...> 
wrote:
>
> Witherwing:
> Hello all. I'd like to hear from people who have written to JKR - 
why you did, what you
> wrote, any response, etc.
> 
> Sharon:
> I emailed her publicist to ask for an interview and received a 
very nice reply back a few days later saying that she received so 
many requests and she only does selecteive interviews (read, with 
famous journos). I'd assume she also gets a lot of fanmail. I 
wouldn't think she'd answer them herself, nbut it might be worth a 
try - -who knows?
>

Tonks:

I thought I read somewhere that she has a staff or secretary that 
reads all of her mail and anything extra special might be seen by 
her. But I don't remember where or when I heard that. I would love 
to write to her, but figure that it would never get past the staff.

Tonks_op 




From totoro_highlander at yahoo.com  Sat Jan  5 07:46:11 2008
From: totoro_highlander at yahoo.com (EdT.S)
Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2008 07:46:11 -0000
Subject: Comic Book Adaptation?
Message-ID: <flnck3+p1tj@eGroups.com>

Aside from the usual hello, I'm new to this group, I wanted to jump
right in bringing up this idea:

With the novels done and the final movie slated for 2010, I've been
wondering if Warner or Rowling will try to keep the franchise alive
afterwards, the encyclopedia notwithstanding since that's no project
dates set on that yet.

When considering how the comic book medium has evolved beyond the
scope of "just another superhero comic" in the past (Neil Gaiman's
Sandman, being the prime example), I'd like to see a proper adaptation
of the Potter series in comic book form, with most of the subplots
intact.  Warner can make it happen since they own DC Comics, but are
they the ideal company to undertake the project?

I ask this because DC's Vertigo line has published their own take on
the Harry Potter idea many years previously.  The similarities are
there, and long time comic book readers will make the comparison.  As
Gaiman said, they draw on similar folklore and archetypes. But that's
where it ends.  Tim's magical training is wholly different than Harry's.

If DC decided to not undertake the project, which comic book company
would you like to see to do the adaptation?

totoro_highlander



From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Jan  5 16:03:38 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2008 16:03:38 -0000
Subject: Happy 12th Night
In-Reply-To: <fln681+h18@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <flo9oq+u1qs@eGroups.com>

Tonks wrote:
>
> OK. all the other Holidays are over, right? So here is a Happy 12th
day of Christmas to anyone who want to enjoy it. Carol, Geoff and ???
> 
> Went to a gather yesterday and gave and got some presents. And going
to another one later today. We use to have a proper 12th night party
when we had a Deacon who had a Harpsichord. What fun that was. The
Three Kings come on Sunday. 
> 
Carol responds:

Hi, Tonks. I remember, as a child, making cardboard crowns and
covering them with foil to wear in an extension of the Christmas
pageant at church. IIRC--and it was a long time ago--we laid cans of
food for the poor at the foot of the Christ child (a doll) on Epiphany
Sunday (which this year is the day of Epiphany itself). 

I'm starting to take my Christmas decorations down today, but I'm
leaving the tree itself till last, which means that it will probably
come down on Epiphany rather than Twelfth Night (tonight). Too much
other stuff to do. (At least, Epiphany is conveniently on a weekend.)

Happy Twelfth Night/Epiphany to those few who celebrate them and no
offense whatever to those who don't. 

Carol, hoping the stores are still carrying eggnog




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Jan  5 16:06:17 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2008 16:06:17 -0000
Subject: Have you ever written to JKR?
In-Reply-To: <fln7v7+rmov@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <flo9tp+ev80@eGroups.com>

Tonks:
> 
> I thought I read somewhere that she has a staff or secretary that 
> reads all of her mail and anything extra special might be seen by 
> her. But I don't remember where or when I heard that. I would love 
> to write to her, but figure that it would never get past the staff.

Carol responds:
Possibly her secretary is the person called Fiddy (surely a nickname)
mentioned in a recent interview transcript. If not, I'm curious as to
who Fiddy might be.

Carol, hoping she won't be laughed at by people who are more
knowledgeable about JKR's staff





From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Sat Jan  5 17:47:52 2008
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2008 17:47:52 -0000
Subject: Comic Book Adaptation?
In-Reply-To: <flnck3+p1tj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <flofs8+h6d2@eGroups.com>

---  "EdT.S" <totoro_highlander at ...> wrote:
>...
> 
> With the novels done and the final movie slated for 2010, 
> I've been wondering if Warner or Rowling will try to keep 
> the franchise alive ...
> 
> When considering how the comic book medium has evolved ..., 
> I'd like to see a proper adaptation of the Potter series in
> comic book form, with most of the subplots intact.  Warner 
> can make it happen since they own DC Comics, but are they 
> the ideal company to undertake the project?
> 
> ...
> 
> totoro_highlander
>

bboyminn:

Well, my first question is, do you mean comic book or do you
mean graphic novel? Comic books seem to have fallen from favor.
I used to see them everywhere and a huge selection besides. Now
I just don't see that many true comic books any more. Yes, I
know they are still there, but the adult graphic novel seems
to have eclipsed them.

A comic book would have to be done in a serial fashion, and
they could get many years of comics out of the avaiable tale,
then switch to made-up-adventures when the novels run out. So,
the potential is certainly there, but I'm not sure JKR would
go for it. When young kids are already reading her books, why
would she create a dumbed-down form of them?

As a side note; I've been expecting a Saturday morning kids
cartoon version of the adventures of Harry for a long time.
That seems the typical thing to do with anything that is
popular. But again, that seems like a dumbed down fake version
of what is already a great adventure that challenges the mind
and skills of any young person. I really seems like second best
to me.

Just a few thoughts.

Steve/bboyminn




From n2fgc at arrl.net  Sat Jan  5 19:10:38 2008
From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Lee Storm(God Is The Healing Force))
Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2008 14:10:38 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Comic Book Adaptation?
In-Reply-To: <flnck3+p1tj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000c01c84fce$a8a98b80$67a4a8c0@FRODO>

[EdT Wrote]:
| When considering how the comic book medium has evolved beyond the
| scope of "just another superhero comic" in the past (Neil Gaiman's
| Sandman, being the prime example), I'd like to see a proper adaptation
| of the Potter series in comic book form, with most of the subplots
| intact.  Warner can make it happen since they own DC Comics, but are
| they the ideal company to undertake the project?

<Snip>

[Lee]:
Perhaps it's just me, but the term "Comic book" seems like such a reduction
of the HP universe.  I can't say why, but, to me, Comic seems too
light-hearted, since this is what the term refers to in the dictionary.  I
see a Comic as lacking substance, but, again, maybe it's just me.

Also, for those of us who cannot get the full benefit of the cartoon
pictures with the speaking bubbles (those of us who are blind), such a
medium is a waste.

In the event WB would want to try such a thing, I would like to see the
output portrayed as "Picture Stories" rather than "Comic Books."  Again,
perhaps it's me, but a "Picture Story" might lend itself to more substance.

All this is just my take on the whole idea.  For those who can enjoy such a
medium, it might be interesting; to put such a medium in audio format for
the rest of us would be impossible! <BEG>

Cheers,

Lee :-)

Do not walk behind me,    | Lee Storm
I may not care to lead;   | N2FGC
Do not walk before me,    | n2fgc at arrl.net (or)
I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at optonline.net
Walk beside me, and be my friend.





From s_ings at yahoo.com  Sat Jan  5 19:45:21 2008
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 14:45:21 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Happy Birthday, Ms. Tattersall!
Message-ID: <714513.2540.qm@web63403.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

*surveys the decorations, touches up the streamers and
adds some glittery confetti for good measure*

Wow, you guys really can eat - everything's been
picked clean. 

*brings in more food and drinks*

Today's birthday honouree is Ms. Tattersall. Birthday
greetings can be sent care of this list or directly
to: cwood at tattersallpub.com

*slips out quickly and returns with a towering cake*

Nearly forgot that bit! 

May your day be full of fun and good friends.

Happy Birthday, Ms. Tattersall!

Sheryll the Birthday Elf

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From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Jan  5 19:50:42 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2008 19:50:42 -0000
Subject: Comic Book Adaptation?
In-Reply-To: <flnck3+p1tj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <flon2i+qf4c@eGroups.com>

"EdT.S" wrote:
>
> Aside from the usual hello, I'm new to this group, I wanted to jump
> right in bringing up this idea:
> 
> With the novels done and the final movie slated for 2010, I've been
> wondering if Warner or Rowling will try to keep the franchise alive
> afterwards, the encyclopedia notwithstanding since that's no project
> dates set on that yet.
> 
> When considering how the comic book medium has evolved beyond the
> scope of "just another superhero comic" in the past (Neil Gaiman's
> Sandman, being the prime example), I'd like to see a proper adaptation
> of the Potter series in comic book form, with most of the subplots
> intact.  Warner can make it happen since they own DC Comics, but are
> they the ideal company to undertake the project? <snip>

Carol responds:
I know nothing about comic books. It seems to me that the ideal medium
for a new version of the HP series is television, which could present
the chapters in a chronological sequence, with the child actors
maturing naturally, and with much more detail and fidelity to the
books than film, which must be trimmed so drastically. Imagine a TV
series with 26 episodes per year, each fifty-minute episode (leaving
room for commercials and credits) covering between one and three
chapters of the books, with one or two books per year, depending on
the length of the book (or half a book per year for GoF through DH).
The casting of the adults could fit their ages (which weren't known at
the time the first film was cast) and the changes and omissions in the
film scripts could be eliminated (with some rethinking of the books to
suit them to a visual medium, but with more consideration for future
plot developments and fidelity to the story as it appears on the
printed page). (No Muggle clothes or shrunken heads, please. And let
Flitwick look like Book!Flitwick, please.)

Carol, who thinks that copyright ownership will be the primary
consideration in whether the books appear in any other medium, which
may not happen until her encyclopedia comes out




From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Jan  5 23:40:24 2008
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2008 23:40:24 -0000
Subject: the opiate of the masses / Fiddy /  the war on Happy Holidays
Message-ID: <flp4h8+kplp@eGroups.com>

Alla wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/34749>:

<< Famous expression was that religion is opium for masses, LOL. >>

When Marx wrote that religion is the opiate of the masses, he followed
with phrases like 'the soul of soulless conditions'. Back in the 19th
century like that, he was thinking of opiates as medicinal rather than
as drugs of abuse. I guess smoking opium and smoking hashish were
thought of as drugs of abuse for exotic foreigners, but only booze was
viewed as a drug of abuse for white people. 

Carol wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/34870>:

<< Possibly her secretary is the person called Fiddy (surely a
nickname) mentioned in a recent interview transcript. If not, I'm
curious as to who Fiddy might be. >>

Fiddy was Rowling's secretary waaaay back when this list was new and a
listie named Nick was in frequent contact with her. I sort of assumed
that 'Fiddy' was her surname.





*** I hate the one subject ("Merry Christmas") that gets lots of
activity on this list, so I really shouldn't feed it ... but I can't
resist ....

Magpie wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/34768>:

<< If it's about greeting the person in a way that will give them the
most pleasure, it just seems logical to me--your ideal is to avoid
wishing them a dominant holiday that they don't celebrate and so might
already make them feel a little left out and to wish them the holiday
they do celebrate. >>

Everything Magpie has said in this thread is right, but whether "it's
about greeting the person in a way that will give them the most
pleasure" is a Big IF. 

Steve wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/34773>:

<<So, yes, you do have to endure the Christmas Carols, and wishes of
Merry Christmas, because even if you aren't celebrating I am, and
whether you like it or not, I do wish you the happiness and blessings
of the season, even if you are unwilling to take them. >>

For example "whether you like it or not" doesn't sound like "it's
about greeting the person in a way that will give them the most
pleasure". I'm surprised that Steve bboyminn, usually a very cool
listie, would regard "whether you like it or not" as "wish[ing] you
the happiness and blessings of the season".

Carol wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/34802>:

<< "Happy holidays" from a store employee is about as genuine and
heartfelt as "Have a nice day." It's something the clerks are
programmed to say. >>

Carol has made very clear that "Merry Christmas" is the greeting that
will give *her* the most pleasure. But somehow she seems to be mixing
it up with a lot of assumptions about if Wal-Mart orders its employees
to tell customers "Merry Christmas" or if a boss sends out a
company-wide memo about "We are a Merry Christmas company, not a Happy
Holidays company", then all the employees are being heartily sincere
when they wish customers a Merry Christmas, but even if the company
doesn't tell employees what greeting to use, then employees who choose
to say "Happy Holidays" are thinking about their sore feet and whether
the cash in their register adds up right. 

It seems to me that "Merry Christmas" and even "God bless you" can be
awesomely obviously insincere when said out of habit, even by people
who really believe in Christianity when they think about it. I just
thought, in the case of a debt collection agency or process server
doing their job, "Merry Christmas" is a little ironic (so is "Happy
Holidays") but "God bless you" might be right on the mark, because
"you"'re in too big trouble to get out without divine intervention.

I can live with "Have a nice day" BECAUSE it's as heartfelt (i.e. not)
as "Good morning". People who insist on taking it literally can do
like my friend, who responded to the cashier at the gas station with
tears and "My father died yesterday and I have to arrange the funeral
because my mother is in hospital and I don't want to have a nice day!"

What has not yet got over annoying me is the radio morning show guy
who signs off: "This is (name). Make it a good day."




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Sun Jan  6 04:44:11 2008
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 04:44:11 -0000
Subject: Comic Book Adaptation?
In-Reply-To: <flnck3+p1tj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <flpmar+475q@eGroups.com>

 "EdT.S" <totoro_highlander at ...> wrote:
> 
> When considering how the comic book medium has evolved beyond the
> scope of "just another superhero comic" in the past (Neil Gaiman's
> Sandman, being the prime example), I'd like to see a proper 
adaptation
> of the Potter series in comic book form, with most of the subplots
> intact.  Warner can make it happen since they own DC Comics, but are
> they the ideal company to undertake the project?


Potioncat:

Welcome to the group.

I know this isn't what you're asking, but here's site that does fan-
gic HP graphic novels. At least I think so. The one I'm familiar with 
is "Vengence is Bitter" by Sigune, based on the Prank. If you go to 
this page, scroll down for the story. I think you have to open it 
page by page.

http://community.livejournal.com/hpcomics/








From snapes_witch at yahoo.com  Sun Jan  6 05:52:18 2008
From: snapes_witch at yahoo.com (Elizabeth Snape)
Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 05:52:18 -0000
Subject: Copyright infringement question
In-Reply-To: <flm0ui+m1bq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <flpqai+p84r@eGroups.com>


> 
> > Bart:
> > Here's an excellent site on the subject:
> > http://www.chillingeffects.org/fanfic/notice.cgi?NoticeID=522
> > 
> > Note that there are also trademarks in play; for example, the
> Sherlock Holmes stories are all in the public domain, but the
> character is still trademarked, so if you tried to create derivative
> fiction, you may find yourself under lawsuit for trademark 
violation.
> Even JKR is not immune; when GOF was made in the media that must not
> be named, she was the recipient of a lawsuit from a band called "The
> Wyrd Sisters", whose name was trademarked, and did not want another
> band with the same name appearing in GOF.
> > 
> > I don't have a list of precisely what is trademarked out of the HP
> series, but with the Harry Potter merchandise, you can be sure it's 
a
>  good portion of it. I'm trying to find a source, but I believe that
> the Lexicon lawsuit involves trademarks as well as copyrights.
> 

Since Carol's brought the topic over here, I thought I'd comment also:

The name Sherlock Holmes is NOT trademarked as evidenced by the 
numerous unauthorized pastiches (a fancy word for published fanfic!) 
and deplorable movies.  (There hasn't been a decent Holmes since 
Jeremy Brett died.)  I definitely know that my favorite, the Mary 
Russell series by Laurie R. King, is unauthorized.

As far as the HP series trademarks, using my Chocolate Frog card 
collection, which covers PS/SS & CoS, as reference, the following 
names are trademarked: Albus Dumbledore, Minerva McGonagall, Severus 
Snape, Rubeus Hagrid, Gildroy Lockhart, Voldemort. Why these names 
were chosen and not Hooch, Pince, etc., is a puzzle! There aren't 
cards for HRH, but I assume they're also trademarked.

Snape's Witch  




From predigirl1 at yahoo.com  Sun Jan  6 06:07:39 2008
From: predigirl1 at yahoo.com (Alex Hogan)
Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 22:07:39 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Comic Book Adaptation?
In-Reply-To: <flpmar+475q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <922133.99967.qm@web53005.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

If Neil Gaiman did Potter, I would be in heaven!!!!! I have long been a collector of The Sandman (DiDi being my favorite) and think he would put an entire other reality in the Wizarding World! Just like Terry Gilliam would have been perfect for the director of the HP movies.
   
  Alex Hogan
  
potioncat <willsonkmom at msn.com> wrote:
          "EdT.S" <totoro_highlander at ...> wrote:
> 
> When considering how the comic book medium has evolved beyond the
> scope of "just another superhero comic" in the past (Neil Gaiman's
> Sandman, being the prime example), I'd like to see a proper 
adaptation
> of the Potter series in comic book form, with most of the subplots
> intact. Warner can make it happen since they own DC Comics, but are
> they the ideal company to undertake the project?

Potioncat:

Welcome to the group.

I know this isn't what you're asking, but here's site that does fan-
gic HP graphic novels. At least I think so. The one I'm familiar with 
is "Vengence is Bitter" by Sigune, based on the Prank. If you go to 
this page, scroll down for the story. I think you have to open it 
page by page.

http://community.livejournal.com/hpcomics/



                         

       
---------------------------------
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From predigirl1 at yahoo.com  Sun Jan  6 06:45:10 2008
From: predigirl1 at yahoo.com (Alex Hogan)
Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 22:45:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: OotP Standee! Happy X-mas!
In-Reply-To: <flkmj0+tac3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <738780.84668.qm@web53002.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

So very right! My teenaged nieces always end up over here every holiday (Granny's house is across the street. Holidays are held there. Think "Everyone loves Raymond", but with a nice mother-in-law) as we are the cool relatives. My house is covered with Goth art, dragons, knights, HP, RHPS, Clockwork Orange, etc.. They are glad I married their Uncle. We Samhain all up every year. No need to act old. Getting old can't be helped. ACTING old or BEING old is a choice. I'm 47 in January and my hubby is 39. Not too shabby. Been married for 4 years now. Raising his 4 year old and and 8 year old (got them 3 1/2  years ago). The nieces and their friends like it here. I'm not too fond of them finding Sanctuary here, but it's better than being an ass, I suppose. But RULES are many. They deal.
   
  Alex Hogan
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
  onks_op at yahoo.com> wrote:
          --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Alex Hogan <predigirl1 at ...> 
wrote:
>
I told my "at the time fiancee'" that I had to have a place to 
display my HP goodies. He loved it! He already had all the HP books 
to date. Then 5 months later, when we got the kids (eek!) people 
thought I had all that for them. HA! That's when I break out the HP 
tattoo on my calf. Gosh. I'm a geek. I love it!

Tonks:

Isn't it annoying when all those boring adults look at you when you 
go to the toy store to get the latest Harry Potter action figures 
(or even the Elmo doll) and they say something about the child that 
they thing you are getting it for? I am getting it for ME!! No child 
is going to so much as touch it! I have a very large HP collection 
and can't wait to have a place to actually display it all. I really 
want one of those really expensive statues of Dobbie. Not the one 
with him and the sock, but the life size one. Once I am rich enough 
to actually buy a house, I hope to have one whole room that is 
nothing but Harry Potter with everything on display. 

Those same type of BORING adults are the ones that think that 
Halloween is only for children. And they don't want to dress up for 
the movies. Some folks are just too old. One should never outgrow 
their inner child. IMO.

Tonks_op



                         

       
---------------------------------
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From s_ings at yahoo.com  Sun Jan  6 16:53:58 2008
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 16:53:58 -0000
Subject: Happy Birthday, Carole and Carolyn!
Message-ID: <flr136+g043@eGroups.com>

*sweeps up confetti, rehangs the streamers and blows up more balloons*

Wow, you guys really partied yesterday - if the state of those 
streamers were any indication! I hope you're not too tired, because 
we have 2 birthdays to celebrate today.

Yes, that's right, 2 birthday honourees today - Carole and Carolyn. 
Birthday greetings can be sent care of list or directly to Carole: 
cestes3 at tampabay.rr.com and Carolyn: carolynwhite2 at aol.com

Hang on, we're missing something important for this party!

*disappears and comes back quickly pulling trolleys of nibbles, 
drinks and 2 towering birthday cakes*

That's better. Much better.

Carole and Carolyn, I hope your days bring you much joy and happiness.

Happy Birthday, Carole!
Happy Birthday, Carolyn!

Sheryll the Birthday Elf




From s_ings at yahoo.com  Sun Jan  6 17:24:50 2008
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 12:24:50 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Secret Shoppers (was: Re: coercion)
In-Reply-To: <flki0e+pgg6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <405988.55861.qm@web63407.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

Susan:

> Some corporations employ "secret shoppers" who test
> the service to 
> customers.
> 
Sheryll:

Yep, I work at place that is subject to regular
"mystery shops". 

Susan:
> I've read some of the criteria..there's some things
> such as if a 
> customer comes within a certain distance, the
> employees in a store 
> are required to greet the customer.
> 
Sheryll:

We are required to greet every customer that walks
into are store. This is scored on our mystery shop.
However, that's not the only reason we do it.
Customers who are greeted know that you are aware of
their presence in the store. This can be a partial
deterrent to some would-be shoplifters. Mostly we just
say "Hello" to people coming in. Regular customers get
more of a greeting, as I've been dealing with them for
over 3 years in some cases. I will ask such things as
"What can possibly be so important as to have you
driving in this weather?" or "What did the kids drag
you down here for this time?". 

Susan:
> Employees who are checking out customers are
> required to say "did you 
> find everything you were looking for?", and are
> required to say 
> things like "have a nice day." Or they are required
> to say "how are 
> you doing today?"
> 
Sheryll:

We are required to ask if a customer found what they
are looking for. Granted, I work in a video store,
with returns constantly coming in, so if a customer
didn't find something on the shelf it's possible that
I have just checked that title in and have it on my
counter.

Susan:
> I find that when I figure out that this is a
> requirement I don't 
> bother to really respond, I just try to be polite,
> and say just fine 
> and you?
> 
Sheryll:
I am not required to ask how people are or to tell
them to "have a nice day". I do thank them for the
purchase/rental. But then, I've worked in customer
service for a long time. Saying please and thank you,
aside being just plain good manners, is pretty much a
habit for me. 

Susan:
> Employees are required not just to tell customers
> where a product is 
> located but to take them over to the product and
> point it out...
> 
Sheryll:

We're supposed to do that, but sometimes it's just not
possible. I won't leave a line-up at the cash to find
something for someone unless it's the customer
currently at my cash who has brought up the wrong
title. 

That said, I know our store so well that if someone
asks me for a James Bond movie I can tell them what
row it's in, what side it's on when walk down the row,
how far down the row and in what position on the rack.
I'm very good at helping customers locate titles
without leaving the till. :)

Susan:
> Etc., etc., etc.
> 
> Now, I think it's absurd to have people say "we're
> having a great day 
> here".... but I ran a 24 hour crisis line for many
> years, and we had 
> some problems with staff/volunteers answering the
> phone in a bored, 
> tone..when someone would call seeking help, some
> people would say 
> rude or insensitive things...when another
> professional would call and 
> say "this is so and so", some people would say
> "uh-huh"....or "what?" 
> 
> We did have to establish standards of practice and
> how to speak to 
> people...to ensure that we were delivering the best
> possible service 
> and giving the best possible impression of our
> organization...
> 
Sheryll:

I think that's a lot of the reason why some businesses
employ mystery shoppers - to help establish standards.
Let's face it, lots of people working in retail are on
their first job and have no idea how to properly deal
with customers. 

> Susan
> Who still believes in caring, respect, and
> compassion, which means 
> that you greet people in the way they want to be
> greeted, and you are 
> careful not to further marginalize people who are
> oppressed, 
> depressed or in trouble...
> 
Sheryll:

I agree, which is why I greet people with a simple
"Hello". It's not my place to ask how someone is, or
anything else non-business related, unless I know them
well enough to be asking that question. 

Sheryll, who once had a customer play the race card on
her when the refusal of service was for not having
proof of identity to access an account 


Join the fun at Convention Alley 2008



      Looking for a X-Mas gift?  Everybody needs a Flickr Pro Account.

 

http://www.flickr.com/gift/




From annemehr at yahoo.com  Sun Jan  6 18:37:13 2008
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (Annemehr)
Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 18:37:13 -0000
Subject: Happy Birthday, Carole and Carolyn!
In-Reply-To: <flr136+g043@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <flr74p+bh4i@eGroups.com>

Another party?  Cool!  

But...be warned -- Carolyn's parties tend to...well, they're 
spirited.  Yes.  Lots of spirits involved.  

And we're gonna need a whole cleaning crew afterward...

*dives into refreshment trolleys*

Happy Birthday, Carole and Carolyn!  Cheers!

~Annemehr



--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Sheryll Townsend" 
<s_ings at ...> wrote:
>
> *sweeps up confetti, rehangs the streamers and blows up more 
balloons*
> 
> Wow, you guys really partied yesterday - if the state of those 
> streamers were any indication! I hope you're not too tired, because 
> we have 2 birthdays to celebrate today.
> 
> Yes, that's right, 2 birthday honourees today - Carole and Carolyn. 
> Birthday greetings can be sent care of list or directly to Carole: 
> cestes3 at ... and Carolyn: carolynwhite2 at ...
> 
> Hang on, we're missing something important for this party!
> 
> *disappears and comes back quickly pulling trolleys of nibbles, 
> drinks and 2 towering birthday cakes*
> 
> That's better. Much better.
> 
> Carole and Carolyn, I hope your days bring you much joy and 
happiness.
> 
> Happy Birthday, Carole!
> Happy Birthday, Carolyn!
> 
> Sheryll the Birthday Elf
>





From minnesotatiffany at hotmail.com  Mon Jan  7 01:24:03 2008
From: minnesotatiffany at hotmail.com (Tiffany B. Clark)
Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 01:24:03 -0000
Subject: Happy Birthday, Carole and Carolyn!
In-Reply-To: <flr74p+bh4i@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <flruvj+td5j@eGroups.com>

Annemehr:
>
> Another party?  Cool!  
> 
> But...be warned -- Carolyn's parties tend to...well, they're 
> spirited.  Yes.  Lots of spirits involved.  
> 
> And we're gonna need a whole cleaning crew afterward...
> 
> *dives into refreshment trolleys*
> 
> Happy Birthday, Carole and Carolyn!  Cheers!
> 
> ~Annemehr

Tiffany:

It sounds like my kind of party, but because I'm highly energetic & 
dynamic, I can throw a mean party also.  I've got real strong leg 
muscles so dancing is a must at my parties, but mine's not until 
August, so have a good one to Carole & Carolyn & make it one to 
remember.




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon Jan  7 02:02:49 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 02:02:49 -0000
Subject: Copyright infringement question
In-Reply-To: <flpqai+p84r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fls189+h4ud@eGroups.com>

Snape's Witch wrote:
> Since Carol's brought the topic over here, I thought I'd comment also:
> 
> The name Sherlock Holmes is NOT trademarked as evidenced by the 
> numerous unauthorized pastiches (a fancy word for published fanfic!) 
> and deplorable movies.  (There hasn't been a decent Holmes since 
> Jeremy Brett died.)  I definitely know that my favorite, the Mary 
> Russell series by Laurie R. King, is unauthorized.
> 
> As far as the HP series trademarks, using my Chocolate Frog card 
> collection, which covers PS/SS & CoS, as reference, the following 
> names are trademarked: Albus Dumbledore, Minerva McGonagall, Severus 
> Snape, Rubeus Hagrid, Gildroy Lockhart, Voldemort. Why these names 
> were chosen and not Hooch, Pince, etc., is a puzzle! There aren't 
> cards for HRH, but I assume they're also trademarked.

Carol responds:
Very interesting! Can you provide a link to this information?

Also, just for the sake of discussion, could an author mention JK
Rowling in a novel without permission from JKR herself? Obviously, her
name isn't trademarked and she's a public figure, so she can be
discussed in a newspaper or Internet forum, but could an author have a
fictional character claim to have known her and gone to school with
her or some such thing? I'm not talking about a subplot involving her
in a fictional love affair or anything like that. I'm just wondering
if the names of celebrities are protected in any way as the names of
characters (at least copyrighted character names) apparently are.

Carol, who would know what to say if a client tried to include a
subplot about Severus Snape ("You can't do this; sorry!"), but is
still concerned about the fictional mayor of New York in the
manuscript she's editing, who can be specifically identified despite
being unnamed because of the time frame




From zanelupin at yahoo.com  Mon Jan  7 04:06:02 2008
From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (KathyK)
Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 04:06:02 -0000
Subject: Have you ever written to JKR?
In-Reply-To: <flmdfc+7t2n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fls8fa+llgh@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "witherwings999"
<witherwing at ...> wrote:
>
> Hello all. I'd like to hear from people who have written to JKR -
why you did, what you 
> wrote, any response, etc. 
> 
> Just curious, Witherwing
>


KathyK:

I did, once, and I can scarcely believe I did so.  If I were the me of
 today several years ago, I never would have.  My letter was included
in this thing called "The Letter Box" that was sent to JKR.  The
website is no longer functioning and I can't remember many details,
like why or how this idea came about.   I also have no idea what I
wrote.  Something lame and silly, if my behavior in 2003-04 is any
indication.  I did it, IIRC, because my love of the books and my
immersion in fandom had reached this point where I just couldn't keep
it to myself any longer and JKR just *had* to know how awesome she
was.  She did respond to the project as a whole:

http://the-letter-box.livejournal.com/6664.html

"Dear International Association of Potter Fans,

What can I say? Rarely do I receive such letters, and never before in
one beautifully packaged collection..

I apologize most sincerely for the long wait for a response. You
congratulated me on his birth - and no, he's not a Squib - but David
is indeed the main reason that i am horrendously behind on my
correspondence.  Well - David and book 6 which (before the press start
up again with the writer's block stories) is flowing like a mountain
stream.

With many many thanks for sending me such a treat I am
 
Yours most sincerely
 
(signed) JKRowling
 
(Jo)"

KathyK, who would now never send fanmail




From swartell at yahoo.com  Mon Jan  7 04:17:57 2008
From: swartell at yahoo.com (Sue Wartell)
Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 20:17:57 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] "Auld Lang Syne" (Was: What's wrong with "Merry Christmas"?)
Message-ID: <747232.22356.qm@web53207.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

I'm coming into this discussion late, having just returned from the year-end round of family visits.

I'm over 40 (by a fair margin), so don't provide a counter-example to Carol's (?) questioning whether anyone under 40 know the words to Auld Lang Syne.  However, I know quite a few under-40's who do.  I do Scottish country dancing, and every big event ends with that song - at least 3 verses of it.  I bet a fair number may not be able to translate it, but they can sing it.  The one time we went to an end-of-year  family dance camp (all kinds of dancing, for ages 4-90), we celebrated midnight with Auld Lang Syne, and most everyone there managed a credible job on the lyrics (and we were in a dry county in West Virginia, so there was no champagne to fuel the singing.).  So there are pockets of rememberance for that particular tradition.

Sue




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From tonks_op at yahoo.com  Mon Jan  7 06:32:49 2008
From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks)
Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 06:32:49 -0000
Subject: Secret Shoppers (was: Re: coercion)
In-Reply-To: <405988.55861.qm@web63407.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <flsh2h+lagt@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Sheryll Townsend 
<s_ings at ...> wrote:
>
> Susan:
> 
> > Some corporations employ "secret shoppers" who test
> > the service to 
> > customers.
> > 
> Sheryll:
> 
> Yep, I work at place that is subject to regular
> "mystery shops". 
> 

Tonks:
I use to be one of those 'mystery shoppers' in fact. Kind of fun. 
Makes you feel like a secret uncover agent! And lots of free stuff, 
like oil changes, and a pay check too. Not a bad deal. They kept 
sending me to the same computer store about 3 times and I am sure 
their employees must have gotten suspicious. Then when you get back 
to your car you have to makes some quick notes without anyone seeing 
you and then go home and fill out this long form on the internet. 
One thing I had to do was to look over the parking lot and note how 
clean it was. How clean was the store, did they have everything I 
was looking for, did the people have any knowledge of the products, 
did I have to wait, etc. 

Tonks_op




From tonks_op at yahoo.com  Mon Jan  7 07:02:27 2008
From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks)
Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 07:02:27 -0000
Subject: Copyright infringement question
In-Reply-To: <fls189+h4ud@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <flsiq3+naj2@eGroups.com>

> Snape's Witch wrote:
> > 
> > As far as the HP series trademarks, using my Chocolate Frog card 
> > collection, which covers PS/SS & CoS, as reference, the following 
names are trademarked: Albus Dumbledore, Minerva McGonagall, Severus 
Snape, Rubeus Hagrid, Gildroy Lockhart, Voldemort. Why these names were 
chosen and not Hooch, Pince, etc., is a puzzle! There aren't cards for 
HRH, but I assume they're also trademarked.

Tonks:
Hooch and Pince are not trademarked by WB, because someone else already 
had them. Ron Weasley, Hermione, Hermione Granger and Harry Potter are, 
of course. You can find trademarks here:

http://www.uspto.gov/#

Tonks_op




From carolynwhite2 at aol.com  Mon Jan  7 09:42:31 2008
From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (carolynwhite2)
Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 09:42:31 -0000
Subject: Happy Birthday, Carole and Carolyn!
In-Reply-To: <flr74p+bh4i@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <flss67+117v@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Annemehr" <annemehr at ...> 
wrote:
>
> Another party?  Cool!  
> 
> But...be warned -- Carolyn's parties tend to...well, they're 
> spirited.  Yes.  Lots of spirits involved.  
> 
> And we're gonna need a whole cleaning crew afterward...
> 
> *dives into refreshment trolleys*
> 
> Happy Birthday, Carole and Carolyn!  Cheers!
> 
> ~Annemehr
> 

> > Happy Birthday, Carolyn!
> > 
> > Sheryll the Birthday Elf
> >
>

Carolyn peers into OTC in astonishment..quite a few years since I was 
here last. I tend to hang out at more doubtful bars nowadays but 
heard the rumour and came to see.

Thankee kindly Sheryll, sort of, although the big day is a few weeks 
away as yet. 

But Anne, since you mention it, if you could begin to line them up. 
Cataloguing parties need a lot of preparation AS YOU KNOW.

xC




From OctobersChild48 at aol.com  Mon Jan  7 10:34:14 2008
From: OctobersChild48 at aol.com (OctobersChild48 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 05:34:14 EST
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Secret Shoppers (was: Re: coercion)
Message-ID: <c0a.27a732f7.34b35a26@aol.com>



Susan:

> Some corporations employ "secret shoppers" who  test
> the service to 
>  customers.
> 
Sandy:
I work in such an establishment and scored 100% on a  secret shop that 
occurred on Dec. 29, and received a gift card for  it.



Susan:
> I've read some of the criteria..there' I've read some o
> such as if a 
> customer comes within a certain  distance, the
> employees in a store 
> are required to greet the  customer.
> 
Sandy:
They tried that at one time where I work, it was called  the rule of three, 
but we do a lot of business at our store and it just wasn't  possible. It could 
take you ten minutes to walk five feet if you stopped to  greet everyone. 


Susan:
> Employees who are checking out customers are
>  required to say "did you 
> find everything you were looking for?", and  are
> required to say 
> things like "have a nice day." Or they  are required
> to say "how are 
> you doing  today?"
> 
Sandy:
I am a cashier and there are  things I am required to do. I am required to 
greet the customer, smile and make  eye contact, engage the customer, ask for 
their shoppers card, ask if they need  help with the bottom of their cart, and 
thank them. But, I and all of the rest  of the cashiers are not given a script 
to follow. We are allowed to do these  things in our own words and ways, and 
we all do so differently. 


Susan:
> I find that when I figure out that this is a
>  requirement I don't 
> bother to really respond, I just try to be  polite,
> and say just fine 
> and you?
>  
Sandy:

I am  not required to ask how people are or to tell
them to "have a nice day",  but I do both. I assure you that not everyone 
tells me they are just fine. I  get many responses when I ask how they are. If I 
get a negative response, such  as not well, or I am having a bad day, I tell 
them that I am sorry to hear  that and that I hope they feel better or things 
improve for them. When I ask  how they are it is my way of engaging them, and I 
don't expect everyone is  going to be great. I listen to what they say and 
respond accordingly.  Likewise, when I tell them to have a good day, evening or 
night, depending  upon what time of the day it is, it is because I hope they 
do. I am not  required to say that, I do so because I want to, and I do make 
exceptions. If  they have been rude or nasty, or are hanging on their cell phone 
(which I  consider the height of rudeness), I say only what I am required to 
say, which  is thank you. Thank goodness that 99.9% of the customers I wait on 
don't share  your cynical view that I am doing this because I have to. 
Perhaps my tone of  voice conveys that I am sincere in asking how they are and that 
I do truly  wish them a good day. 
Susan:

>  Employees are required not just to tell customers
> where a product is  
> located but to take them over to the product and
> point it  out...
> 
Sandy:
If I am on the floor of the store I am required to do  that. I don't have a 
problem with it. Actually, it  works better for me.  The store I work at is 
huge and we carry a lot of products. After being there  for nearly six years I 
know where everything is, but for some reason I have a  difficult time 
remembering what aisle things are in. It is easier for me to just  take the person 
there rather than wrack my brain trying to remember what aisle  the product is in. 
Out of curiosity, why would this policy bother you? We do  this to provide 
the best customer service we can.



> Susan
> Who still believes in caring, respect,  and
> compassion, which means 
> that you greet people in the way  they want to be
> greeted, and you are 
> careful not to further  marginalize people who are
> oppressed, 
> depressed or in  trouble...
> 
Sandy:
I don't understand this at all. How can I know how a  person wants to be 
greeted when I don't know them? I greet every customer with  care, respect and 
compassion. That is why I ask how they are and tell them to  have a good day. I 
know all about depression and trouble. In the last six years  I have lost my 
husband, my mother and my very beloved dog, and have been  critically injured in 
one accident and suffered minor injuries in another. If  you were standing in 
front of me and I was standing still you would not know or  suspect any of 
that. But because of what I have been through I know that life is  not all 
peaches and cream for everyone, and if , by offering a kind word, I can  make 
someone else feel better then my life is better too. I have had about a  half a 
dozen women answer my question of how are they with not so good because  their 
husband just passed away. Having gone through that myself I can tell them  that 
the first year is the absolute pits, but it does get better, and it does  get 
easier. 
 
Quite frankly, the things I am required to ask and do  aggravate the piss out 
of me. I feel like a recording that plays over and over  again. I deal with 
hundreds of customers every day. Asking how they are and  wishing them a good 
day makes it more personal for me, not just that endless  recorded message I am 
required to play. They talk to me and they tell me. I am  happy that I got 
that 100% on the secret shop; my job depends upon it, but I  hope the person who 
secret shopped me also enjoyed the time they spent in my  line because I made 
it personal.
 
Sandy

 



**************Start the year off right.  Easy ways to stay in shape.     
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From Schlobin at aol.com  Mon Jan  7 16:15:41 2008
From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176)
Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 16:15:41 -0000
Subject: Secret Shoppers (was: Re: coercion)
In-Reply-To: <c0a.27a732f7.34b35a26@aol.com>
Message-ID: <fltj7d+ju3e@eGroups.com>


> Susan:
> 
> >  Employees are required not just to tell customers
> > where a product is  
> > located but to take them over to the product and
> > point it  out...
> > 
> Sandy:
> If I am on the floor of the store I am required to do  that. I 
don't have a 
> problem with it. Actually, it  works better for me.  The store I 
work at is 
> huge and we carry a lot of products. After being there  for nearly 
six years I 
> know where everything is, but for some reason I have a  difficult 
time 
> remembering what aisle things are in. It is easier for me to just  
take the person 
> there rather than wrack my brain trying to remember what aisle  the 
product is in. 
> Out of curiosity, why would this policy bother you? We do  this to 
provide 
> the best customer service we can.
> 

It doesn't. You misunderstood. I was just describing what some 
service personnel are required to do.

Susan




From Schlobin at aol.com  Mon Jan  7 16:18:38 2008
From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176)
Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 16:18:38 -0000
Subject: Secret Shoppers (was: Re: coercion)
In-Reply-To: <c0a.27a732f7.34b35a26@aol.com>
Message-ID: <fltjcu+r49n@eGroups.com>

> Susan:
> > I find that when I figure out that this is a
> >  requirement I don't 
> > bother to really respond, I just try to be  polite,
> > and say just fine 
> > and you?
> >  
> Sandy:
> 
> I am  not required to ask how people are or to tell
> them to "have a nice day",  but I do both. I assure you that not 
everyone 
> tells me they are just fine. I  get many responses when I ask how 
they are. If I 
> get a negative response, such  as not well, or I am having a bad 
day, I tell 
> them that I am sorry to hear  that and that I hope they feel better 
or things 
> improve for them. When I ask  how they are it is my way of engaging 
them, and I 
> don't expect everyone is  going to be great. I listen to what they 
say and 
> respond accordingly.  Likewise, when I tell them to have a good 
day, evening or 
> night, depending  upon what time of the day it is, it is because I 
hope they 
> do. I am not  required to say that, I do so because I want to, and 
I do make 
> exceptions. If  they have been rude or nasty, or are hanging on 
their cell phone 
> (which I  consider the height of rudeness), I say only what I am 
required to 
> say, which  is thank you. Thank goodness that 99.9% of the 
customers I wait on 
> don't share  your cynical view that I am doing this because I have 
to. 
> Perhaps my tone of  voice conveys that I am sincere in asking how 
they are and that 
> I do truly  wish them a good day. 


I shop at several stores every week - about four of them regularly.
It is very obvious when someone is saying "how are you" and "have a 
nice day" because they are required to. I then say, "fine" and "you, 
too" to be courteous.

If someone is obviously engaging me as an individual, of course, I 
talk back, and have a nice conversation with the person.

Susan




From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Mon Jan  7 17:29:04 2008
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 17:29:04 -0000
Subject: Secret Shoppers (was: Re: coercion)
In-Reply-To: <c0a.27a732f7.34b35a26@aol.com>
Message-ID: <fltnh0+ne5f@eGroups.com>

> > Susan
> > Who still believes in caring, respect,  and
> > compassion, which means 
> > that you greet people in the way  they want to be
> > greeted, and you are 
> > careful not to further  marginalize people who are
> > oppressed, 
> > depressed or in  trouble...
> > 
> Sandy:
> I don't understand this at all. How can I know how a  person wants 
to be 
> greeted when I don't know them? I greet every customer with  care, 
respect and 
> compassion. That is why I ask how they are and tell them to  have 
a good day. 

Magpie:
I think she means she thinks your way is the right way--your 
intention is to genuinely wish the person well based on what they 
need. If you don't know what they would want you to say, you just 
try to be as general/neutral as possible, and if they give you more 
information you can get more specific.

The opposite is wishing somebody a greeting when it's really about 
your own agenda, wanting them to take notice of what *you* say 
because that's what *you* want to hear no matter what their personal 
situation (known to you or not) might be.

-m




From minnesotatiffany at hotmail.com  Mon Jan  7 20:23:16 2008
From: minnesotatiffany at hotmail.com (Tiffany B. Clark)
Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 20:23:16 -0000
Subject: Secret Shoppers (was: Re: coercion)
In-Reply-To: <fltj7d+ju3e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <flu1nk+ijkl@eGroups.com>

Susan:
>  
Employees are required not just to tell customers
where a product is  
located but to take them over to the product and
 point it  out...  
>  Sandy:
If I am on the floor of the store I am required to do  that. I 
don't have a 
problem with it. Actually, it  works better for me.  The store I 
work at is 
huge and we carry a lot of products. After being there  for nearly 
six years I 
know where everything is, but for some reason I have a  difficult 
time 
remembering what aisle things are in. It is easier for me to just  
take the person 
there rather than wrack my brain trying to remember what aisle  the 
product is in. 
Out of curiosity, why would this policy bother you? We do  this to 
provide 
the best customer service we can.
> 
> 
> It doesn't. You misunderstood. I was just describing what some 
service personnel are required to do.
> 
> Susan

Tiffany:

It's not only stores that secret shoppers are known to frequent & get 
paid money for doing so also.  I used to work as a waitress before 
nabbing my current job as an administrative assistant on the 
weekends.  I know from firsthand experience that secret shoppers also 
haunt restaurants & grade them, like a report card on the place.  
I've only dealt with a few rude customers there, but most were very 
polite & wouldn't be arrogant at all.




From tcorea13 at sbcglobal.net  Tue Jan  8 00:28:58 2008
From: tcorea13 at sbcglobal.net (Tina)
Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 00:28:58 -0000
Subject: Secret Shoppers (was: Re: coercion)
In-Reply-To: <c0a.27a732f7.34b35a26@aol.com>
Message-ID: <flug4a+8u7c@eGroups.com>


> Sandy:
> 
> I am  not required to ask how people are or to tell
> them to "have a nice day",  but I do both. I assure you that not
everyone 
> tells me they are just fine. I  get many responses when I ask how
they are. If I 
> get a negative response, such  as not well, or I am having a bad
day, I tell 
> them that I am sorry to hear  that and that I hope they feel better
or things 
> improve for them. When I ask  how they are it is my way of engaging
them, and I 
> don't expect everyone is  going to be great. I listen to what they
say and 
> respond accordingly.  Likewise, when I tell them to have a good day,
evening or > night, depending  upon what time of the day it is, it is
because I hope they 
> do. I am not  required to say that, I do so because I want to, and I
do make 
> exceptions. If  they have been rude or nasty, or are hanging on
their cell phone 
> (which I  consider the height of rudeness), I say only what I am
required to 
> say, which  is thank you. Thank goodness that 99.9% of the customers
I wait on 
> don't share  your cynical view that I am doing this because I have to. 
> Perhaps my tone of  voice conveys that I am sincere in asking how
they are and that 
> I do truly  wish them a good day...<snip> 
 ...Quite frankly, the things I am required to ask and do  aggravate
the piss out 
> of me. I feel like a recording that plays over and over  again. I
deal with 
> hundreds of customers every day. Asking how they are and  wishing
them a good 
> day makes it more personal for me, not just that endless  recorded
message I am 
> required to play. They talk to me and they tell me. I am  happy that
I got 
> that 100% on the secret shop; my job depends upon it, but I  hope
the person who 
> secret shopped me also enjoyed the time they spent in my  line
because I made 
> it personal.
>  
> Sandy
> 

Tina:
Yeesh, Sandy!! You are the kind of employee managers dream about!
Certainly someone I would love having on my staff. You're right--good
 customer service is about making a difference in someone's day, not
about reciting company provided lines. People who do not work in
sales/customer service have no idea how hard it can be to maintain a
positive attitude in the face of negative and cynical customers. 

The company I work for requires us to greet customers, assist them on
the sales floor, and be courteous at the cash register--my staff has
the added pressure of working on commission, but I still expect them
to create a pleasant, pressure-free experience for our customers. We
don't have mystery shoppers, but we still try to maintain a high
standard. 

I happen to be a store manager that encourages my staff to say "happy
holidays"--we are in an area with a large jewish population, and I
find myself wishing just as many customers "happy new year" at rosh
hashanah as I do on Dec. 31. When I wish "happy holidays" or "have a
nice day" to a customer, I do it because I mean it.

Tina




From txohsobad at yahoo.com  Tue Jan  8 02:14:24 2008
From: txohsobad at yahoo.com (Chris)
Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 02:14:24 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter book first print question
Message-ID: <fluma0+b8d1@eGroups.com>

I am trying to collect all the US first edition Harry Potter books. I 
found a site www.firsteditionpoints.com that explains what to look 
for to make sure they are in fact first editions.  I am confused as 
to what a particular # means.
 
Ex.  HP and the Deathly Hollows    (copyright page)  The web site say 
it should read as follows
 
                        10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 07 08 09 10 11
                             Printed in the USA, 12<-------------
                             First Edition, July 2007
 
I have looked through several of these books and the # after Printed 
in the USA does not always match (several books have had 23,58).   
Everything else down to what the dust jacket is suppose to say 
matches.
 
I would appreciate if you could shed some light on the meaning of 
that particular #, and whether it makes a difference in determining 
if the book is first edition or not.

Any help would be greatly appreciated,
e-mail txohsobad at yahoo.com
Christopher




From alexisnguyen at gmail.com  Tue Jan  8 05:23:24 2008
From: alexisnguyen at gmail.com (P. Alexis Nguyen)
Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 00:23:24 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Harry Potter book first print question
In-Reply-To: <fluma0+b8d1@eGroups.com>
References: <fluma0+b8d1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b6e131bf0801072123g17fbc7dewe4dbdfb41b7c3ab9@mail.gmail.com>

Christopher:
>  10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 07 08 09 10 11
>  Printed in the USA, 12<-------------
>  First Edition, July 2007
...snipped...
>  I would appreciate if you could shed some light on the meaning of
>  that particular #, and whether it makes a difference in determining
>  if the book is first edition or not.


Granted, I've no idea what that 12 on the 2nd line means, but the
standard methods of identifying first printings are by, one, the
"First Edition" line there and, two, by the line of numbers, with the
lowest number designating the edition.  In other words, if you've got
those exact lines in your book, chances are good that you've got a
first printing.

Out of curiosity, why are you looking for first editions?  I know the
UK ones might prove somewhat valuable, but it's doubtful that any
other countries' will. Moreover, with the first printings of the first
book for the UK & US numbering, if I recall properly and I well might
not, only 500, this search might prove difficult, at least concerning
the first few books that were out before HP fever started. (And
really, at this point, I've got to wonder if anyone with a first
printing of one of those books would be willing to give them up.) Just
curious. :)

~Ali



From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Jan  8 05:24:21 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 05:24:21 -0000
Subject: Copyright infringement question
In-Reply-To: <flsiq3+naj2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <flv1e5+8upr@eGroups.com>

-Tonks:
> Hooch and Pince are not trademarked by WB, because someone else
already had them. Ron Weasley, Hermione, Hermione Granger and Harry
Potter are, of course. You can find trademarks here:
> 
> http://www.uspto.gov/#
> 

Carol responds:
I must be dense or something. (Yes, guys, I see you nodding behind
your hands. ;-) )I found JKR's copyrighted titles on that site, but
not her trademarked characters. Can you give me a more specific link
and/or directions?

Thanks,
Carol




From tonks_op at yahoo.com  Tue Jan  8 06:00:19 2008
From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks)
Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 06:00:19 -0000
Subject: Copyright infringement question
In-Reply-To: <flv1e5+8upr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <flv3hj+fh3j@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:
>
> -Tonks:
> > Hooch and Pince are not trademarked by WB, because someone else
> already had them. Ron Weasley, Hermione, Hermione Granger and Harry
> Potter are, of course. You can find trademarks here:
> > 
> > http://www.uspto.gov/#
> > 
> 
> Carol responds:
> I must be dense or something. (Yes, guys, I see you nodding behind
> your hands. ;-) )I found JKR's copyrighted titles on that site, but
> not her trademarked characters. Can you give me a more specific link 
and/or directions?
> 

Tonks:
Go to this page:
http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/gate.exe?f=tess&state=nhfv2a.1.1

chose the top one "New User Form" type in Hermione, then Hermione 
Granger. You have to do them one by one.

Tonks_op




From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Tue Jan  8 07:40:36 2008
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 07:40:36 -0000
Subject: Copyright infringement question
In-Reply-To: <flm0ui+m1bq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <flv9dk+o4ri@eGroups.com>

---  "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:
>
> I'm moving this post from the main list because I want to 
> expand the topic beyond the Hp books, fanfic, and JKR.
> 
> ---  Bart Lidofsky <bartl@> wrote:
> 
> > Bart:
> > Here's an excellent site on the subject:
> > http://www.chillingeffects.org/fanfic/notice.cgi?NoticeID=522
> > 
> > Note that there are also trademarks in play; for example, 
> > the Sherlock Holmes stories are all in the public domain, 
> > but the character is still trademarked, so if you tried to
> > create derivative fiction, you may find yourself under 
> > lawsuit for trademark violation.
> ...
> > 
> > I don't have a list of precisely what is trademarked out 
> > of the HP series, but with the Harry Potter merchandise,
> > you can be sure it's a good portion of it. ...
> 
> Carol responds:
> 
> My specific concern is not with fanfic but with the use of 
> trademarks and the names of celebrities in the manuscripts 
> of novels intended for publication. My novice authors, for 
> example, have their characters eating, for example, Big Macs,
> or wearing specified brands of clothing to mark their good 
> taste and wealth (or lack of either). 

bboyminn:

Just my opinion, but I don't think you are violating a
trademark or copyright by mentioning a brand name in a
story.

Consider a recent Stephen King book in which one character 
comments about 'the most popular book in history', and 
another character replies 'Harry Potter?'. I think that is
a fair and reasonable social commentary which is allowed.

In the example of Sherlock Holmes, one character in a book
could say something to the effect that 'this is a case for
Sherlock Holmes', meaning this is a difficult case that is
going to take a brilliant mind to solve. Sherlock Holmes
becomes a cultural reference.

Now if you have your own characters and one of them is a boy
wizard named Harry Potter and another is a detective named
Sherlock Holmes, your pressing your luck.

As far as trademark, you can have a character mention 'Mars
Bars' and not get into trouble, but you can't market your
own candy bar and call them 'Mars Bars' or anything that
smacks of 'Mars Bars'. For example, you couldn't market a new
candy bar similar to Mars Bars and call them Martian Bars or 
Marz Bars, that's just too close. 

You can mention a trademark, but you can not create a new
product with the same or a similar name. 

Now I suspect if you use a product name, say McDonald's, in
a way that defames the company or is slanderous, then they
might have a case against you, but not for copyright or
trademark infringement. A recent book which was also 
made into a movie, though I don't recall the name, in which,
under the supervison of a doctor, a man tried to eat nothing 
but McDonald's for 30 days. His health became so bad that
the doctors forces him to stop before he reached the end
of the 30 days.

So far, no law suites that I am aware of. 

As to your case where a person has a story that is similar
to reality, but with name changes to protect the guilty,
and slight changes in characters, let me remind of the
popular TV series 'Law and Order' where virtually every
story is ripped from the headlines. Again, they start with
a disclaimer, and change the story enough to call it fiction,
and they get away with it week after week. To my knowledge
they have only been sued once, and I think it was by a
politician. Still that show has been on the air for MANY
years.

I think when the context is consider, all the things you
mention can be considered fair use. 

Steve/bboyminn




From giraffeland at hotmail.com  Tue Jan  8 16:27:01 2008
From: giraffeland at hotmail.com (aef34)
Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 16:27:01 -0000
Subject: Copyright infringement question
In-Reply-To: <flv9dk+o4ri@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fm088l+dueb@eGroups.com>

> bboyminn:
> Now I suspect if you use a product name, say McDonald's, in
> a way that defames the company or is slanderous, then they
> might have a case against you, but not for copyright or
> trademark infringement. A recent book which was also 
> made into a movie, though I don't recall the name, in which,
> under the supervison of a doctor, a man tried to eat nothing 
> but McDonald's for 30 days. His health became so bad that
> the doctors forces him to stop before he reached the end
> of the 30 days.

Supersize Me was the name of the movie.  I think he did complete the 30 
days against doctors wishes. 




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Jan  8 22:06:10 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 22:06:10 -0000
Subject: Copyright infringement question
In-Reply-To: <flv9dk+o4ri@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fm0s4i+q3s9@eGroups.com>

bboyminn:
> 
> Just my opinion, but I don't think you are violating a trademark or
copyright by mentioning a brand name in a story.
> 
> Consider a recent Stephen King book in which one character comments
about 'the most popular book in history', and another character
replies 'Harry Potter?'. I think that is a fair and reasonable social
commentary which is allowed.
><snip>

> Now if you have your own characters and one of them is a boy wizard
named Harry Potter and another is a detective named Sherlock Holmes,
your pressing your luck.
> 
> As far as trademark, you can have a character mention 'Mars Bars'
and not get into trouble, but you can't market your own candy bar and
call them 'Mars Bars' or anything that smacks of 'Mars Bars'. <snip>
> 
> Now I suspect if you use a product name, say McDonald's, in a way
that defames the company or is slanderous, then they might have a case
against you, but not for copyright or trademark infringement. <snip>
> 
> I think when the context is consider, all the things you mention can
be considered fair use. 
> 
> Steve/bboyminn
>
Carol responds:

Thanks, Steve. Of course, it's also possible that in, say, the case of
Mars Bars, the publisher or premissions editor requested permission to
use the name as a courtesy (and was granted use of then name, in that
context, as a courtesy).

At any rate, I know that my client will need to request permission to
use some copyrighted song lyrics and that fair use will prevent her
from quoting the entire song. That much I'm familiar with.

As for involving famous people in scandalous fictional love affairs, I
realize that those references aren't copyright violations, but they
could qualify as defamation of character and discourage publishers
from accepting the manuscript. Better to be safe than sorry, IMO.

BTW, I found a statement on the back of the title page of "Sorcerer's
Stone" stating that Harry Potter and all related characters, which
would include Madam Hooch and Madam Pince, are trademarks of Warner
Bros. (JKR is not mentioned.) That's not quite the same thing as
copyrighted characters, though. I still haven't found a site that
lists all of JKR's copyrighted characters. All the fanfic writers and
website master/mistresses simply take for granted that Snape, Lupin,
et al. are copyrighted and belong to Rowling. (The site Tonks linked
me to seems to relate to applications to use those characters as
action figures or video game characters, which may be why you can find
results for "Snape" but not "Severus Snape" and for "Hermione Granger"
but not "madam Pince.") Please note that I'm *not* planning to use
JKR's characters in fanfic or anything else (other than commentary on
HPfGu), but I'd still like a link to a list of her copyrighted
characters if anyone has one (other than the one Tonks gave me, which
I've already searched). 

Carol, thanking everyone for their help and pretty sure that she knows
what to tell her client now




From totoro_highlander at yahoo.com  Tue Jan  8 23:47:40 2008
From: totoro_highlander at yahoo.com (EdT.S)
Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 23:47:40 -0000
Subject: Comic Book Adaptation?
In-Reply-To: <flofs8+h6d2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fm122s+2uk1@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <bboyminn at ...> wrote: 
> Well, my first question is, do you mean comic book or do you
> mean graphic novel? Comic books seem to have fallen from favor.

I mean a monthly series, which tends to be the comic book and it could
generate the most money for those businessmen who sees nothing but the
dollar signs with this franchise.  I tend to see most (not all though)
graphic novels as compilations of comic book story arcs than a
standalone format.  Giving it a graphic novel format would be better
though, since the novels can be broken into acts and each act can be a
graphic novel.

In response to the other posts, I looked at the livepage and fan-gic
pages.  Interesting stuff!

Ed




From tonks_op at yahoo.com  Wed Jan  9 06:23:13 2008
From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks)
Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 06:23:13 -0000
Subject: Copyright infringement question
In-Reply-To: <fm0s4i+q3s9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fm1p8h+it7f@eGroups.com>

When Warner Brothers bought the rights from Rowling, I think that 
they bought the rights to trademark everything. And if I understand 
correctly a trademark is stronger than a copyright. I tried to find 
the page where I read about WB and the trademarks for the movies a 
couple of years before anyone knew the names of the books. I 
couldn't find it again, of course! But I found this. And I read that 
a title of a book is not copyrighted or trademarked but the contents 
can be copyrighted.

This is an interesting link about WB and an E-bay seller. I too had 
a problem with WB when selling items on E-bay. In fact, I lost my 
account there and later got it back 2 years later. But now I am so 
scared of them I don???t sell anything on E-bay anymore. What did I do 
to get in so much trouble? I tried to sell 2 items in one auction. 
One was a Harry Potter item and one was not. WB told me that I can 
not sell a HP item with a non-HP item. I also learned from the WB 
lawyers that one can not say ???your Harry Potter fan would love 
this???. I told them that gives new meaning to the term ???he who must 
not be named???. I remember going to a HP convention in Ottawa Canada 
(Convention Alley) and they were told they could not say or have 
banners that said ???Happy Birthday Harry Potter???. They could only 
say ???Happy Birthday Harry???. Also I consulted with an attorney once 
and she told me that WB can do whatever they want to whoever they 
want because they have the power and the money and the rest of us do 
not.  ;-(

http://www.tabberone.com/Trademarks/trademarks.html 

Look what I found here. An attorney's blog:
http://www.vegastrademarkattorney.com/2007/11/harry-potter-and-
trademark-infringement.html

Tonks_op






From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Jan  9 20:33:21 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 20:33:21 -0000
Subject: Copyright infringement question
In-Reply-To: <fm1p8h+it7f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fm3b2h+48am@eGroups.com>

Tonks wrote:
>
> When Warner Brothers bought the rights from Rowling, I think that
they bought the rights to trademark everything. And if I understand 
correctly a trademark is stronger than a copyright. I tried to find
the page where I read about WB and the trademarks for the movies a
couple of years before anyone knew the names of the books. I couldn't
find it again, of course! But I found this. And I read that a title of
a book is not copyrighted or trademarked but the contents can be
copyrighted.
><snip>

Carol responds:

I've been researching the subject, and I've found that you can't
copyright anything as short as a character's name or a title, which
can't qualify as a literary work. You can only copyright the work as a
whole to prevent others from claiming your work as their own or
quoting it without permission (though "fair use" allows critics,
reviewers, and others to quote and comment on excerpts from the work).
I won't get into whether the published Lexicon falls under "fair use,"
but it appears that using the name of a character for profit would
fall under trademark infringement, not copyright infringement.
(Whether an author can refer to another author's character in a novel
without permission, I still don't know. I'd say, better to be safe,
not to mention courteous, than sorry.)

At any rate, the official "Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix"
website states that the characters and "related indicia" are all
trademarks of Warner Bros. So does that mean Albus Dumbledore is no
longer JKR's character despite her statements that "He's my character"
and "He is what he is"? (Of course, as his creator, she has the right
to say what she wants to about him, or any of the others, but it looks
as if when she sold the movie rights to Warner Bros., they trademarked
the characters' names (and the names of places and Houses) without
including her in the trademark ownership. So the theme park, video
games, and action figures are all based on the movies, not the books,
and Warner Bros. gets a share in the profits but JKR doesn't? Is that
how it works? Or does Warner Bros. merely get to sue people, like the
people in India who tried to create a Hogwarts Castle without
permission? I thought JKR was involved in that suit, too, even though
the name (and image?) of Hogwarts castle is Warner Bros.' trademark,
not hers.

Okay, I have a headache now. And I still don't know whether a
disclaimer that no copyright or trademark infringement is intended is
sufficient protection for fanfic.

Carol, happy to see the birthday wishes for Severus Snape (TM) on
JKR's website

















































































From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Wed Jan  9 21:39:12 2008
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 21:39:12 -0000
Subject: MOVED from MAIN - "sequels" to the classics
Message-ID: <fm3eu0+efho@eGroups.com>

> a_svirn:
> Yeah, but Darcy and Elisabeth had each of them some of both, 
whereas 
> in this case all prejudice seems to be on Draco's side and all 
pride 
> on Harry's ...
> 
> As for fanfics, they not only write them, but even publish and sell 
> them openly in the bookstores. I saw with my own disbelieving 
> eyes: "Mr Darcy Takes a Wife" (with a rather suggestive picture on 
> the front cover) and another one, something about Mr Darcy's 
> daughters. 
> 
> a_svirn
>

Alla:

Hmmm, I am moving this from main to talk about the multitude of 
sequels to the classics that I had seen in the bookstores as well.

My guess will be that some of those sequels are in the bookstores 
because either book is in public domain now if that is the correct 
way to state things (no estate to continue renewing copyright) or the 
estate approved the sequel. 

I believe and I can be wrong that the first sequel so to speak 
to "Gone with the wind" called Scarlett by Alexandra Rippley was 
approved by the estate of Margaret Mitchell.

Coincidentally I happen to own this book and couple others as well. 
The reason I am writing this is not to ask any copyright questions, 
but to ask whether anybody who read them was really impressed by 
their literary merits.

I mean, they are in essence printed fanfics, but supposedly they 
could be really good.

I bought Scarlett because I was DYING to see happy ending between her 
and Rett and I got it. I do not know if I can say the book was great, 
but I thought it was not bad either, well enough written, etc.

I also bought Mr. Darcy's daughters, but was so unimpressed that I 
gave the book away.

I skimmed through Mr. Darcy takes a wife, but really was not that 
interested.

Is that a relatively recent phenomenon ?





From horsenstuff at yahoo.com  Wed Jan  9 22:01:20 2008
From: horsenstuff at yahoo.com (horsenstuff)
Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 22:01:20 -0000
Subject: Copyright infringement question
In-Reply-To: <flsiq3+naj2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fm3g7g+46ij@eGroups.com>

Hello,

So you can not include them in your own Transformative Work if they 
are copyrighted?  I'm new sorry to be a dunce if I am.

I am new to this group and in reading some of the
posts questions have come to mind. 

I'm new to the idea of works written that are based
upon her characters and do not know the laws, etc.
that would govern such.  

I know there are copyright laws.  But I also know that
there are works done based on well known stories. 
Black Beauty, Wide Sargasso Sea that is the back story
of the Mad Wife in the Attic in Jane Eyre, the recent
Broadway show (still running?) about the witch in the
Wizard of Oz.  I believe the copyright is off those
now as they were written so long ago though.

So, what to do if you want to write a work that 
involves aspects of Rowling's books?  Is that possible
or is everything immediately squelched if there is a
hint of it?  Is there a website, guidelines, online
group and even a way to "vet" works with J.K.
Rowling's "people" so that they might eventually even
make their way up to her approval and possible
publication?

I'm not talking about a knock-off work - using the
same words, people, everything.  No, one that includes
it as the backdrop, some of the characters, and the
main character is not in her books.

Also someone mentioned the NC-17 rating not being
acceptable to J.K. - is that correct?  I'm not even
sure what that means - basically no sex?  No hint of
sex?  No reference to anyone having it though it's
okay to talk about babies, and parents and seeing
characters with a brood in tow years later?

I'm not talking porn here.  But a realistic (or
fascimile since it's fiction) portrayal of the
struggle a character might go through, tastefully not
explicitly done?  And no, it's not about Dumbledore.

Whew,  this has been a composition to write.  I just
think that there could or should be ways out there for
really excellent creative works that J.K. herself
might actually LIKE to be produced.  Not on a website,
where they might get plagarized and the original
connection to the creator gets lost.

I'm talking something really well done.  Plausible. 
Acceptable to the creator of its source.

Help?  Anyone? I might be asking for a drenching back 
but I have to ask.  I'm not uneducated, I have some
talents, and I've found myself drawn to a tale that
needs telling.  Whether it's just for me and my
computer to know about, maybe a few friends to laugh
over in a few years, I don't know.

But, gotta ask, please be gentle.  With a smile :)

Lynn



--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" <tonks_op at ...> wrote:
>
> > Snape's Witch wrote:
> > > 
> > > As far as the HP series trademarks, using my Chocolate Frog 
card 
> > > collection, which covers PS/SS & CoS, as reference, the 
following 
> names are trademarked: Albus Dumbledore, Minerva McGonagall, 
Severus 
> Snape, Rubeus Hagrid, Gildroy Lockhart, Voldemort. Why these names 
were 
> chosen and not Hooch, Pince, etc., is a puzzle! There aren't cards 
for 
> HRH, but I assume they're also trademarked.
> 
> Tonks:
> Hooch and Pince are not trademarked by WB, because someone else 
already 
> had them. Ron Weasley, Hermione, Hermione Granger and Harry Potter 
are, 
> of course. You can find trademarks here:
> 
> http://www.uspto.gov/#
> 
> Tonks_op
>





From a_svirn at yahoo.com  Wed Jan  9 22:13:32 2008
From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn)
Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 22:13:32 -0000
Subject: MOVED from MAIN - "sequels" to the classics
In-Reply-To: <fm3eu0+efho@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fm3guc+s7p4@eGroups.com>

> Alla:
> 
> Hmmm, I am moving this from main to talk about the multitude of 
> sequels to the classics that I had seen in the bookstores as well.
> 
> My guess will be that some of those sequels are in the bookstores 
> because either book is in public domain now if that is the correct 
> way to state things (no estate to continue renewing copyright) or 
the 
> estate approved the sequel. 
> 
> I believe and I can be wrong that the first sequel so to speak 
> to "Gone with the wind" called Scarlett by Alexandra Rippley was 
> approved by the estate of Margaret Mitchell.
> 
> Coincidentally I happen to own this book and couple others as well. 
> The reason I am writing this is not to ask any copyright questions, 
> but to ask whether anybody who read them was really impressed by 
> their literary merits.
> 
> I mean, they are in essence printed fanfics, but supposedly they 
> could be really good.
> 
> I bought Scarlett because I was DYING to see happy ending between 
her 
> and Rett and I got it. I do not know if I can say the book was 
great, 
> but I thought it was not bad either, well enough written, etc.
> 
> I also bought Mr. Darcy's daughters, but was so unimpressed that I 
> gave the book away.
> 
> I skimmed through Mr. Darcy takes a wife, but really was not that 
> interested.
> 
> Is that a relatively recent phenomenon ?
>

a_svirn:
Well, I am not sure, really. I presume, it is fairly recent, but I 
may be wrong. 

I did read a very decent continuation of a popular series once ?
 "Thrones, Dominations", it was also approved by the estate of 
Sayers, and it is actually a "collaboration", so to speak ? they 
found an unfinished manuscript by Sayers and offered another author 
to finish it. Which she did, and pretty good job it was, I think. 
Though, of course, I forever wondered which part is Sayers's and 
which the continuator's.  

But as for those Darcy books, I leafed through the first one (about 
taking a wife), and it looked like *very* primitive fanfic.   

a_svirn 





From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Wed Jan  9 22:30:17 2008
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 22:30:17 -0000
Subject: MOVED from MAIN - "sequels" to the classics
In-Reply-To: <fm3guc+s7p4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fm3htp+9ch1@eGroups.com>

> a_svirn:
> Well, I am not sure, really. I presume, it is fairly recent, but I 
> may be wrong. 
> 
> I did read a very decent continuation of a popular series once ?
>  "Thrones, Dominations", it was also approved by the estate of 
> Sayers, and it is actually a "collaboration", so to speak ? they 
> found an unfinished manuscript by Sayers and offered another author 
> to finish it. Which she did, and pretty good job it was, I think. 
> Though, of course, I forever wondered which part is Sayers's and 
> which the continuator's.  
> 
> But as for those Darcy books, I leafed through the first one (about 
> taking a wife), and it looked like *very* primitive fanfic.   


Alla:

The best continuation of the famous story that I had ever read was 
the book called "Troy" by Russian author Irina Ismailova. Although 
again I am not sure if I loved the book so much due to its merit or 
because it changes the famous story development the way I always 
wanted it to go ever since I first read "Illiad" as a kid.

I should not call it a continuation, because it is not, it is a 
retelling of the Troyan war, let's put it this way and author plays 
it off very nicely by imagining basically that young historian finds 
in his possession the manuscript, which talks about Trojan war and 
how sometimes it is close to what Homer told in his story and so very 
different in other places.





From gav_fiji at yahoo.com  Wed Jan  9 23:22:38 2008
From: gav_fiji at yahoo.com (Goddlefrood)
Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 23:22:38 -0000
Subject: MOVED from MAIN - "sequels" to the classics
In-Reply-To: <fm3htp+9ch1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fm3kvu+fka5@eGroups.com>

> > a_svirn:
> > Well, I am not sure, really. I presume, it is fairly recent, 
> > but I may be wrong.

Goddlefrood:

As far as the continuation of famous stories goes it is not a 
recent phenomenon at all. I don't know when it started, but iirc 
there are only a certain number of basic stories anyway. 

One well known example of fanfiction is Sherlock Holmes; there 
has been a plethora of stories about Holmes not written by Doyle 
Snr. since relatively soon after the author's death. The first 
several further stories of Holmes were written with the co-
operation of the estate, in particular Doyle's son, who 
collaborated with John Dickson Carr on at least one 
substantial Holmes book.

Rebecca by Daphne DuMaurier has also had a good number of 
continuations, one of which is Mrs. Dalloway; as well as 
rewrites of the story, such as Rebecca of Sunnybrook Farm. 

Certain series have continued long after the demise of their 
originators, Tarzan, Conan, James Bond etc. etc.

On the whole I avoid fanfiction of any kind, preferring as I do 
the origianl works. The exceptions to this generality include 
The Last Sherlock Holmes Story by Michael Dibdin, which i would 
recommend to anybody who likes Sherlock and particularly Dr. 
Watson.

But, yes, it's not a recent thing, man has copied ideas from 
others for an extremely long time.

Goddlefrood, currently in the throes of writing non-fanfiction 
;-)




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Thu Jan 10 00:10:28 2008
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 00:10:28 -0000
Subject: MOVED from MAIN - "sequels" to the classics
In-Reply-To: <fm3eu0+efho@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fm3npk+r0d7@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" <dumbledore11214 at ...> 
wrote:

Alla:

> I skimmed through Mr. Darcy takes a wife, but really was not that 
> interested.

Gepoff:
Do you mean that Mr Darcy wasn't really interested in 
his wife or that you weren't really interested in the 
book?

:-))




From donnawonna at att.net  Thu Jan 10 04:06:44 2008
From: donnawonna at att.net (Donna)
Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 23:06:44 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
Subject: Ship Aground in the English Channel
Message-ID: <478599D4.000006.03948@LIFESAVER>

To Members in the UK:
 
Have any of you heard of a ship going aground in the English Channel
recently?  
 
Donna in Dayton

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 10 04:19:21 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 04:19:21 -0000
Subject: MOVED from MAIN - "sequels" to the classics
In-Reply-To: <fm3kvu+fka5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fm46c9+1105f@eGroups.com>

Goddlefrood wrote:
> 
> As far as the continuation of famous stories goes it is not a 
> recent phenomenon at all. I don't know when it started, but iirc 
> there are only a certain number of basic stories anyway. 
> 
> One well known example of fanfiction is Sherlock Holmes; there 
> has been a plethora of stories about Holmes not written by Doyle 
> Snr. since relatively soon after the author's death. The first 
> several further stories of Holmes were written with the co-
> operation of the estate, in particular Doyle's son, who 
> collaborated with John Dickson Carr on at least one 
> substantial Holmes book.
> 
> Rebecca by Daphne DuMaurier has also had a good number of 
> continuations, one of which is Mrs. Dalloway; as well as 
> rewrites of the story, such as Rebecca of Sunnybrook Farm. 
><snip> 

Carol responds:

Just a small correction; "Rebecca of Sunnybrook Farm" is a children's
novel published in 1903. It has no connection with the much more
sophisticated (and sinister) "Rebecca" by Daphne DuMaurier, which was
not published until 1938.  

Speaking of published continuations, two different people gave me
"Ahab's Wife" for Christmas the year it came out (2001?), and I still
haven't read it--no idea whether it's any good or not. "Moby Dick," of
course, is long out of copyright and Melville died 1891. Very
different from writing works based on the characters created by a
living author. JKR appears to be pretty tolerant of Internet fanfic,
but I don't know what would happen to an author or publisher who dared
to publish, say, "The Short, Unhappy Life of Severus Snape."

BTW, someone mentioned "The Madwoman in the Attic," which does refer
to the mad wife of Mr. Rochester in "Jane Eyre" but is actually a book
of feminist literary criticism, not a novel. The full title is
"Madwoman in the Attic: The Woman Writer and the Nineteenth-Century
Literary Imagination," and it was published in 1979. The authors,
Sandra Gilbert and Susan Gubar, are well-known feminist critics who
examine novels by Jane Austen, Mary Shelley, the Bront? sisters, and
others for repressed sexuality or some such thing. It's been a long
time since I read it.

Carol, who recently found her old copy of "Rebecca of Sunnybrook
Farm," inscribed with "Happy birthday," the date of her eleventh 
birthday, and the name of her then-best friend 




From tonks_op at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 10 04:44:52 2008
From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks)
Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 04:44:52 -0000
Subject: Dummy trademarks by Warner Brothers (was Re: Copyright infringement question
In-Reply-To: <fm3b2h+48am@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fm47s4+m511@eGroups.com>

Carol asked me to post this when I found it.

The place where the discussion about Warner Brothers and trademarks 
for dummy movie names, etc. to throw people off the real one was a 
discussion at Mugglenet. It was in one of the notes of their podcast 
#45.

Here is how to find all of the dead titles that WB filed a trademark 
for and then abandoned when the real title was announced.

Go to this page and push on the first link for 'New User Form Search 
Basic' and type in: Harry Potter and the  

and you will see them all.

http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/gate.exe?f=tess&state=bdnpt7.1.1

Tonks_op






From tonks_op at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 10 05:08:14 2008
From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks)
Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 05:08:14 -0000
Subject: Copyright infringement question
In-Reply-To: <fm3g7g+46ij@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fm497u+igrh@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "horsenstuff" 
<horsenstuff at ...> wrote:
>
> Hello,
> 
> So you can not include them in your own Transformative Work if 
they are copyrighted?  I'm new sorry to be a dunce if I am.
> snip> 
> I'm new to the idea of works written that are based
> upon her characters and do not know the laws, etc.
> that would govern such.  
> 
(snip> 
> So, what to do if you want to write a work that 
> involves aspects of Rowling's books?  Is that possible
> or is everything immediately squelched if there is a
> hint of it?  Is there a website, guidelines, online
> group and even a way to "vet" works with J.K.
> Rowling's "people" so that they might eventually even
> make their way up to her approval and possible
> publication?
> 
> I'm not talking about a knock-off work - using the
> same words, people, everything.  No, one that includes
> it as the backdrop, some of the characters, and the
> main character is not in her books.

Tonks:
I am not an attorney. I am therefor not giving legal advise. I think 
that the only place that you can get away with using "the backdrop, 
some of the characters, etc." is in fanfiction that is not for 
profit. You see this all over the internet. If you are planning to 
write a book of fiction for profit, you have to create your own 
world and characters. You can not use hers without permission. And 
you will never get permission, I am sure.

On the other hand, if you are writing a non-fiction book about her 
work, that is another story. John Granger and others have done that. 
Steve at Lexicon is in trouble because his work does not discuss her 
books, but is more of a reference book with little if any original 
material of his own. 

Tonks_op




From tonks_op at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 10 05:24:01 2008
From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks)
Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 05:24:01 -0000
Subject: Ship Aground in the English Channel
In-Reply-To: <478599D4.000006.03948@LIFESAVER>
Message-ID: <fm4a5h+v5b9@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Donna" <donnawonna at ...> wrote:
>
> To Members in the UK:
>  
> Have any of you heard of a ship going aground in the English Channel
> recently?  
>

Tonks:

I am not in the UK. But here is a link:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080102/wl_uk_afp/britainaccidentship




From Schlobin at aol.com  Thu Jan 10 06:50:12 2008
From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176)
Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 06:50:12 -0000
Subject: MOVED from MAIN - "sequels" to the classics
In-Reply-To: <fm46c9+1105f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fm4f74+mk9a@eGroups.com>

 Very
> different from writing works based on the characters created by a
> living author. JKR appears to be pretty tolerant of Internet fanfic,
> but I don't know what would happen to an author or publisher who 
dared
> to publish, say, "The Short, Unhappy Life of Severus Snape."
> 

Yes, Ms. Rowling is incredibly tolerant of fan fiction. Many authors 
will not allow fan fiction. 

M. Z. Bradley had a bad experience after allowing fan fiction for 
many years, and as a result many authors such as Mercedes Lackey will 
not allow fan fiction...

MZB quote:

". . .While in the past I have allowed fans to 'play in my yard,' I 
was forced to stop that practice last summer when one of the fans 
wrote a story, using my world and my characters, that overlapped the 
setting I was using for my next _Darkover_ novel. Since she had sent 
me a copy of her fanzine, and I had read it, my publisher will not 
publish my novel set during that time period, and I am now out 
several years' work, as well as the cost of inconvenience of having a 
lawyer deal with this matter. 

"Because this occurred just as I was starting to read for this year's 
_Darkover_ anthology, that project was held up for more than a month 
while the lawyer drafted a release to accompany any submissions and a 
new contract, incorporating the release. I do not know at present if 
I shall be doing any more _Darkover_ anthologies. 


"Let this be a warning to other authors who might be tempted to be 
similarly generous with their universes, I know now why Arthur Conan 
Doyle refused to allow anyone to write about Sherlock Holmes. I 
wanted to be more accomodating, but I don't like where it has gotten 
me. It's enough to make anyone into a misanthrope." 

It's wonderful that JKR continues to be so generous, given the 
possible problems and pitfalls.

Susan






From alexisnguyen at gmail.com  Thu Jan 10 06:57:20 2008
From: alexisnguyen at gmail.com (P. Alexis Nguyen)
Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 01:57:20 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Copyright infringement question
In-Reply-To: <fm497u+igrh@eGroups.com>
References: <fm3g7g+46ij@eGroups.com> <fm497u+igrh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b6e131bf0801092257g48047b4by3ad29e6cb289f94d@mail.gmail.com>

Tonks:
>  I am not an attorney. I am therefor not giving legal advise. I think
>  that the only place that you can get away with using "the backdrop,
>  some of the characters, etc." is in fanfiction that is not for
>  profit. You see this all over the internet. If you are planning to
>  write a book of fiction for profit, you have to create your own
>  world and characters. You can not use hers without permission. And
>  you will never get permission, I am sure.

Ali:
Mostly true. Fanfiction, published or not, is technically infringement
since the law doesn't take profits into account in such ways. Authors
such as Anne Rice have successfully stopped fanfiction of their works
from being published on the Internet (i.e. done sans profit). Many
authors, however, having seen the backlash that was created via Rice's
actions, have chosen to endorse fanfics, probably somewhat under the
advise of their PR folks. Sites such as fanfiction.net are alive
simply due to the fact that the original copyright holders have not
chosen to assert their rights (except folks like Rice); the second all
those copyright holders assert themselves, ff.net shall die a quick
death (not likely, though).

On the other hand, many of the HP readers/fanfic writers will likely
outlive JKR (not to be morose or anything), so if they're willing to
wait, it's probably easier to hold out for that before getting her
permission to public fanfics - I can't recall the basis upon which the
Gone With the Wind sequel was allowed to be published, but needless to
say, Mitchell's estate lost the case.



Tonks:
>  On the other hand, if you are writing a non-fiction book about her
>  work, that is another story. John Granger and others have done that.
>  Steve at Lexicon is in trouble because his work does not discuss her
>  books, but is more of a reference book with little if any original
>  material of his own.

Oh dear. I should ignore this, but I wanted to say just one thing. It
is unfair to make judgments of who is in what trouble without knowing
all the facts, and that's where the Rowling v. Lexicon case is at now.
Some reference works fall under the realm of derivative works, and
until someone can actually produce a book, it is rather unclear
whether the published Lexicon would be a reference the HP series or
would be purely derivative in the sense of referring to the book and
discussing it. Clearly, the judge has hesitations about doing nothing
since he granted an injunction, but in reality, had the judge
definitively thought this was a clear cut case of copyright
infringement, the case would have gone straight to trial (which would
still entail an injunction, of course). We'll see; that injunction
only lasts until February. (The judge is probably going to demand a
draft of something at some point, but that's just a guess based on the
fact that judges don't like to make high profile decisions without
absolutely everything available to them.) I do wonder if the judge
will use the recent Silverstein case as reference or if he will ignore
it.

I should clarify that, like Tonks, I'm not a lawyer, just someone who
recently graduated [US] business school. :)

~Ali



From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Thu Jan 10 07:37:25 2008
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 07:37:25 -0000
Subject: MOVED from MAIN - "sequels" to the classics
In-Reply-To: <fm3kvu+fka5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fm4hvl+e2kd@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Goddlefrood" <gav_fiji at ...> wrote:
>
> > > a_svirn:
> > > Well, I am not sure, really. I presume, it is fairly recent, 
> > > but I may be wrong.
> 
> Goddlefrood:
> 
> As far as the continuation of famous stories goes it is not a 
> recent phenomenon at all. I don't know when it started, but iirc 
> there are only a certain number of basic stories anyway.

<Snip>

> Rebecca by Daphne DuMaurier has also had a good number of 
> continuations, one of which is Mrs. Dalloway; as well as 
> rewrites of the story, such as Rebecca of Sunnybrook Farm. 

Geoff:
Sequels to "Rebecca" include "Rebecca's Tale" by Sally Beauman and
"Mrs. de Winter" by Sally Hill.




From gav_fiji at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 10 09:21:47 2008
From: gav_fiji at yahoo.com (Goddlefrood)
Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 09:21:47 -0000
Subject: MOVED from MAIN - "sequels" to the classics
In-Reply-To: <fm4hvl+e2kd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fm4o3b+863i@eGroups.com>

> Geoff:
> Sequels to "Rebecca" include "Rebecca's Tale" by Sally Beauman 
> and "Mrs. de Winter" by Sally Hill.

Goddlefrood:

Happily for me I'm no expert on fanfiction, as Carol has found out 
already. I don't disparage the practice, but just don't want to get 
involved in it at all. Making up more original things is my bag.

Off to type some more.





From donnawonna at att.net  Thu Jan 10 13:36:52 2008
From: donnawonna at att.net (Donna)
Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 08:36:52 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Ship Aground in the English Channel
References: <fm4a5h+v5b9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <47861F74.000014.03816@LIFESAVER>


Donna:

Tonks, thank you.  You sent exactly what I was looking for.

 
--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Donna" <donnawonna at ...> wrote:
>
> To Members in the UK:
> 
> Have any of you heard of a ship going aground in the English Channel
> recently? 
>

Tonks:

I am not in the UK. But here is a link:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080102/wl_uk_afp/britainaccidentship


 
 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From coriandra2002 at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 10 16:35:46 2008
From: coriandra2002 at yahoo.com (coriandra2002)
Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 16:35:46 -0000
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Fan_fiction_in_general__was:_=09MOVED_from_MAIN_-_"sequels"_to_the_classics_?=
Message-ID: <fm5hh2+ejc0@eGroups.com>

If any of you are or hope to be published writers (as I do sometime in
the future) how would you feel about fan fiction writing in your universe?

My position would be: don't ask don't tell.  I'd rather not have
people killing off my characters or writing slash or incest stories
about them.  But because there's so little control over that on the
internet, I'd try to encourage good writing by linking some high
quality archives to my website and try to ignore the more tawdry ones. 




From horsenstuff at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 10 15:34:47 2008
From: horsenstuff at yahoo.com (Lynn - horsenstuff@yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 07:34:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: MOVED from MAIN - "sequels" to the classics
In-Reply-To: <fm46c9+1105f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <774340.87910.qm@web34415.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- Carol <justcarol67 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> <snip>
> BTW, someone mentioned "The Madwoman in the Attic,"
> which does refer to the mad wife of Mr. Rochester 
> in "Jane Eyre" but is actually a book of feminist 
> literary criticism, not a novel. The full title is
> "Madwoman in the Attic: The Woman Writer and the
> Nineteenth-Century Literary Imagination," and it 
> was published in 1979. The authors, Sandra Gilbert 
> and Susan Gubar, are well-known feminist critics 
> who examine novels by Jane Austen, Mary Shelley, 
> the Bront sisters, and others for repressed 
> sexuality or some such thing. <snip>


I was not referring to a book entitled "Mad Woman in
the Attic."  Simply using the phrase to refer to
Rochester's first wife in Jane Eyre.

The name of the book with the "Mad Wife" I was
referring to is "Wide Sargasso Sea" by Jean Rhys
(sp?).

Lynn






From horsenstuff at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 10 16:52:30 2008
From: horsenstuff at yahoo.com (horsenstuff)
Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 16:52:30 -0000
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Fan_fiction_in_general__was:_=09MOVED_from_MAIN_-_"sequels"_to_the_classics?=
In-Reply-To: <fm5hh2+ejc0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fm5ige+qpo3@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "coriandra2002"
<coriandra2002 at ...> wrote:
>
> If any of you are or hope to be published writers (as I
> do sometime in the future) how would you feel about fan
> fiction writing in your universe?
>
> My position would be: don't ask don't tell.  I'd rather
> not have people killing off my characters or writing
> slash or incest stories about them.  But because there's
> so little control over that on the internet, I'd try to
> encourage good writing by linking some high quality
> archives to my website and try to ignore the more tawdry
> ones.


How would I feel?  - Terribly flattered!  Curious about the
best.

She has finished her books it seems.  At least according to
what she has said.  Then out comes that Dumbledore is gay.
Adding to it, more backstory.

I have a story too, for myself for now.  It's a challenge.
Like a crossword puzzle without clues.  Just the structure.
And I have to put in all the words to fit the form.  I did
not make the puzzle square up but I have to put in the words
that fit and I'm the only one that knows them.

My pocket change on it, just like everyone else,

Lynn







From tonks_op at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 10 21:35:38 2008
From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks)
Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 21:35:38 -0000
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Fan_fiction_in_general__was:_=09MOVED_from_MAIN_-_"sequels"_to_the_classics?=
In-Reply-To: <fm5hh2+ejc0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fm633a+151j@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "coriandra2002" 
<coriandra2002 at ...> wrote:
>
> If any of you are or hope to be published writers (as I do sometime in
> the future) how would you feel about fan fiction writing in your 
universe?
> 
> My position would be: don't ask don't tell.  I'd rather not have
> people killing off my characters or writing slash or incest stories
> about them.  But because there's so little control over that on the
> internet, I'd try to encourage good writing by linking some high
> quality archives to my website and try to ignore the more tawdry ones.
>

Tonks: 
I too hope to be a writer. Mostly non-fiction, but I might try my hand 
at fiction too. I am told that I tell a good tale. I know my position 
will not win me many friends here, but then my robes have been singed 
so many times by other things that I have said here why should I care 
now. ;-)

I do not like fanfiction. I don't read it, and I don't write it. My 
view is that fanfiction is a lot like playing a game and cheating. 
There is no glory in winning that way. I think that people should use 
their own imagination and make their own characters, etc. I have read 
some of the HP fanfiction just to see what it was. I really hate 
reading about Hermione being raped by the death eater, etc. and all of 
the rest of these takeoffs on the real story. (I will admit that I did 
like some of the het stories about Snape. But then, who wouldn't?) I 
don't want Rowling's view of her world compromised by fanfiction. After 
awhile it would be hard to remember what was in the original and what 
was somewhere else. I just think that fanfiction is the lazy way out of 
being a writer. It might be OK for people to experiment when learning 
to write, I guess... but I don't know. Better to use you own imagiation 
and see where it takes you. I think a writer should have enough faith 
in themself to just make up their own world and go from there. We all 
did it as young children. Just set your inner-child free. The world is 
waiting for you!

Tonks_op




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 10 22:36:09 2008
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 22:36:09 -0000
Subject: Unlikely pairings - moved from MAIN again :)
Message-ID: <fm66kp+hm44@eGroups.com>

Geoff:
<SNIP>
Mark you, the idea of Harry and Draco
as an item is an intriguing one. I have read some interesting fanfic
going along this when I get into a "What would have happened if?"
frame of mind.

Alla:

Absolutely, as I said upthread I totally know why people SHIP 
Harry/Draco ? same reason why I SHIP Snape/ Sirius ? classic "thin 
line from love to hate", etc.
And no, I do not think that sexual tension was between two eleven 
year olds, but I sure understand how it can be read that way.

Just as I find the handshake between Sirius and Snape in book 4 to be 
full of sexual tension. NO, I do not think it is what JKR intended, 
lol. But I am also guilty of hoping that relationship between Sirius 
and Snape will change for the better after that handshake ? that they 
will be forced to work together and be friends or something.

It is interesting though that as unlikely as I always found both 
pairings to come true, I always felt more sympathetic for 
Snape/Sirius, because up to certain point I saw some goodness in 
Snape as well and never saw any in Draco.

To use "Pride and Prejudice" example, I would probably not mind to 
compare Snape/Sirius to it, but I totally do not see Harry/Draco as 
comparison because of seeing good qualities in Darcy and none in 
Draco. I mean, Okay now I can say that he loves his parents, but 
that's pretty much it.

By the way, speaking about Pride and prejudice, I remember Neri 
arguing at some point on Main that reversal in Lizzy's views happens 
after the letter from Darcy pretty much and not that very dramatic at 
the end. Um, anybody can tell me why this is not true?

I reread the book not that often last time, but watched BBC series 
and latest American adaptation recently. Lizzie is shocked when she 
gets the letter and that causes reevaluation, not that she is one 
hundred percent sure in his innocence, but neither is she sure in his 
guilt any more. Does anything more dramatic happen after that? I mean 
sure before the letter she thinks of him as villain who did not treat 
poor Wickham well, but after that she is just not sure?  And even 
when he helps Lidia, I did not feel it was more shocking for Lizzie 
than reading the letter.

Thanks.

Alla





From juli17 at aol.com  Thu Jan 10 23:09:51 2008
From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 18:09:51 -0500
Subject: MOVED from MAIN - "sequels" to the classics
In-Reply-To: <1199961398.707.62255.m46@yahoogroups.com>
References: <1199961398.707.62255.m46@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <8CA21F50A104442-15DC-2010@Webmail-mg08.sysops.aol.com>




Alla:

The best continuation of the famous story that I had ever read was 
the book called "Troy" by Russian author Irina Ismailova. Although 
again I am not sure if I loved the book so much due to its merit or 
because it changes the famous story development the way I always 
wanted it to go ever since I first read "Illiad" as a kid.

I should not call it a continuation, because it is not, it is a 
retelling of the Troyan war, let's put it this way and author plays 
it off very nicely by imagining basically that young historian finds 
in his possession the manuscript, which talks about Trojan war and 
how sometimes it is close to what Homer told in his story and so very 
different in other places.


Julie:

In this vein?there are a couple of recent authors who have "retold" classic 
tales or scenes/characters therein, both in very creative ways. The first is
Geoffrey McGuire, who has written several novels telling classic tales from a
different POV, resulting in quite different perspectives on the traditional heroes
and villians in?those tales. Wicked (from the POV of the Wicked Witch of the 
West in the Wizard of Oz) and Confessions of an Ugly Stepsister (from the POV
of one of Cinderella's much-maligned stepsisters) are both riveting novels, IMO. 

The other author is Jasper Fforde, who has written the Tuesday Next novels,
including The Eyre Affair and Lost in a Good Book. It would be impossible to
convey how incredibly inventive the alternate reality of these books is, but
in a nutshell Tuesday is a British literary detective in a?world where you can step
directly into books and interact with the characters. Her job is to keep people
from altering literary works (including the characters within the works themselves).
Fforde makes great use of classics and especially some of the characters (Hamlet
and Miss Haversham come to mind).

Of course they are also?using works that are now within the public domain, as the
Harry Potter books won't be so for however many (many) years.? But how I'd
dearly love to see McGuire retell the Harry Potter saga from?Snape's POV, or to 
see Tuesday Next wandering through the HP?books keeping all the characters
in line. (I do recall reading one fanfic crossover where the Snape character
had been corrupted--by fangirls--and had silky flowing black locks and all
the Hogwarts girls madly crushing on him. As I recall, Tuesday quickly returned
him to his?surly, undesirable, greasy-haired glory ;-)

Julie, who hasn't read any of the several Pride and Prejudice knockoffs that
are now out there


________________________________________________________________________
More new features than ever.  Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From horsenstuff at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 10 22:59:00 2008
From: horsenstuff at yahoo.com (Lynn - horsenstuff@yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 14:59:00 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Fan fiction in general  was: 	MOVED from MAIN - "sequels" to the classics
In-Reply-To: <fm633a+151j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <244088.2760.qm@web34405.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

> "coriandra2002" <coriandra2002 at ...> wrote:
> > If any of you are or hope to be published writers (as I do 
> > sometime in  the future) how would you feel about fan fiction
> > writing in your universe?
<SNIP>

> Tonks: 
> I too hope to be a writer. Mostly non-fiction, but I might 
> try my hand at fiction too. I am told that I tell a good 
> tale. 
<SNIP>
> Better to use you own imagiation and see where it takes you. 
> I think a writer should have enough faith in themself to just 
> make up their own world and go from there. We all did it as 
> young children. Just set your inner-child free. The world is 
> waiting for you!


Again,  just everyone's own opinion...

I know for myself that I have created my own character, plot, 
action, outcomes, etc. and actually, having to fit my world 
into the constraints of someone else's makes it harder, more 
challenging to write.

Nothing I would put down would change what was already written 
by anyone else.  It would just make it more of a shock in a 
certain way.

Lynn



From horsenstuff at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 10 23:25:36 2008
From: horsenstuff at yahoo.com (Lynn - horsenstuff@yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 15:25:36 -0800 (PST)
Subject: MOVED from MAIN - "sequels" to the classics
In-Reply-To: <8CA21F50A104442-15DC-2010@Webmail-mg08.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <294513.42869.qm@web34414.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

> Alla:
> The best continuation of the famous story that I had
> ever read was the book called "Troy" by Russian author 
> Irina Ismailova. Although again I am not sure if I loved 
> the book so much due to its merit or because it changes 
> the famous story development the way I always wanted it 
> to go ever since I first read "Iliad" as a kid.
<SNIP>

> Julie:
> In this vein?there are a couple of recent authors who have 
> "retold" classic tales or scenes/characters therein, both 
> in very creative ways. 
<SNIP>


Here's an example of what fan fiction sounds like to
me:  In the world of model horse collecting and
"showing" there are such models as "remakes."  Someone
takes an already cast model by another artist and
adds, subtracts, changes, etc. that original model to
make one of their own.  

Then, they can show or sell that model as a "remake." 
They can get money for it.  They often make it look a
zillion times better than the original.

I'm not saying that that should be done or attempted
with the HP novels.  They are complete, done, printed
and over except for the rereadin'.  I do not want to
change a single word, error, typo, discrepancy, end
left hanging, etc. in those words.  That's not my work
to touch.

However, to think that they would not cause a creative
reaction is to ignore our age - we have computers,
internet, blogs, call in phone lines on "radio,"
American Idol voting - all sorts of media where people
respond.

HP entered the "public domain" in my opinion when it
hit the shelves and readers hands.  It has caused a
great response.  For the most part people just
spending tons of money and enjoy the mania.

For some though,  it has touched deeper.  Moved them
in some way.  And caused a creative response.

I for one do not want to be a mere consumer, spending
my money, enjoying and disposing afterward.  I think,
feel and respond to what I take the time to read, see,
experience, whatever.

So if some idea occurs to me that enriches what I have
chosen to spend my money on and experience, and if I
happen to also come up with a valid literary work of
the highest quality that would be acceptable to the
originator of "some" of the content of my work, then I
revert back to the horse remake example.

It happens in other realms.  Perhaps it's time that
the publishing world caught up.

Just more cents,
Lynn



From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Thu Jan 10 23:50:27 2008
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 23:50:27 -0000
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Fan_fiction_in_general__was:_=09MOVED_from_MAIN_-_"sequels"_to_the_classics?=
In-Reply-To: <fm633a+151j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fm6b03+bqnq@eGroups.com>

> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "coriandra2002" 
> <coriandra2002@> wrote:
> >
> > If any of you are or hope to be published writers (as I do 
sometime in
> > the future) how would you feel about fan fiction writing in your 
> universe?
> > 
> > My position would be: don't ask don't tell.  I'd rather not have
> > people killing off my characters or writing slash or incest 
stories
> > about them.  But because there's so little control over that on 
the
> > internet, I'd try to encourage good writing by linking some high
> > quality archives to my website and try to ignore the more tawdry 
ones.


> Tonks: 
> I too hope to be a writer. Mostly non-fiction, but I might try my 
hand 
> at fiction too. I am told that I tell a good tale. I know my 
position 
> will not win me many friends here, but then my robes have been 
singed 
> so many times by other things that I have said here why should I 
care 
> now. ;-)
> 
> I do not like fanfiction. I don't read it, and I don't write it. My 
> view is that fanfiction is a lot like playing a game and cheating. 
> There is no glory in winning that way. I think that people should 
use 
> their own imagination and make their own characters, etc. I have 
read 
> some of the HP fanfiction just to see what it was. I really hate 
> reading about Hermione being raped by the death eater, etc. and all 
of 
> the rest of these takeoffs on the real story. (I will admit that I 
did 
> like some of the het stories about Snape. But then, who wouldn't?) 
I 
> don't want Rowling's view of her world compromised by fanfiction. 
After 
> awhile it would be hard to remember what was in the original and 
what 
> was somewhere else. I just think that fanfiction is the lazy way 
out of 
> being a writer. It might be OK for people to experiment when 
learning 
> to write, I guess... but I don't know. Better to use you own 
imagiation 
> and see where it takes you. I think a writer should have enough 
faith 
> in themself to just make up their own world and go from there. We 
all 
> did it as young children. Just set your inner-child free. The world 
is 
> waiting for you!

Magpie:
That's only one way of looking at fanfiction, though, and it doesn't 
cover what everyone is doing with it. (FWIW I am a published writer 
and also support fanfiction though I don't write it myself--thinking 
it's something I did as a child in my head along with making up my 
own characters and worlds.)

But the idea that fanfiction is cheating is, imo, completely false 
because it assumes that it's goal is the same as original writing and 
it isn't. Plenty of writers of original fic also write fanfic, and 
some fanfic writers have no interest in writing original fic.

Fanfic is its own activity, not just "not really writing." It is, 
imo, mostly about interacting with the text that grabs you. A person 
writing a fanfic wants to see something happen with these characters 
in that world. They're not just using them because they don't want to 
make up their own. You can work out things for yourself using 
characters/worlds that resonate for you, or work out things about the 
source text. Honestly, sometimes I've read analysis of texts where 
I've wished the writer of them would just write the fanfic rather 
than find a way the text is saying something more along the lines of 
what they would want it to say. 

So in general, fanfic is awesome, some of it's great, a lot of it is 
bad (just like original writing) and it's its own animal, separate 
from original fiction. And to me just writing a book is encouraging 
fanfic--maybe the fanfic might never be written down, but you're 
putting a story and characters into peoples' heads where you can't 
follow them. If they have any kind of staying power they very well 
might inspire some imaginary stories of their own there. 

-m





From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Thu Jan 10 23:54:43 2008
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 23:54:43 -0000
Subject: Unlikely pairings - moved from MAIN again :)
In-Reply-To: <fm66kp+hm44@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fm6b83+2fa1@eGroups.com>

> Alla:

> By the way, speaking about Pride and prejudice, I remember Neri 
> arguing at some point on Main that reversal in Lizzy's views happens 
> after the letter from Darcy pretty much and not that very dramatic at 
> the end. Um, anybody can tell me why this is not true?

Magpie:
I seem to remember Sydney doing great posts about this on main and 
saying that--Lizzie's big moment is when she gets the letter and 
realizes how wrong she's been. After that it's more just working 
everything out. I loved all the stuff she wrote on P&P.

-m (H/D shipper--but never equated Draco with Darcy)




From s.hayes at qut.edu.au  Thu Jan 10 23:58:38 2008
From: s.hayes at qut.edu.au (Sharon Hayes)
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:58:38 +1000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Unlikely pairings - moved from MAIN again
 :)
In-Reply-To: <fm6b83+2fa1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3EBC8113FA09F449B6CC44C847E510911CE016364F@QUTEXMBX02.qut.edu.au>

 Sharon:
> Honestly guys! Isn't it obvious that all that apparent hatred, angst and rivalry between
Harry and Draco is masking sexual tension? Dumbledore isn't the only one who's gay if
you ask me. It's so obvious ;-)

Geoff:
Actually it's not. I agree that the sort of confrontation we see could
be masking sexual tension but (a) they're too young and (b) speaking
as a male, it isn't necessarily gay.

Unless things have changed dramatically since I was in my teens, we
used to become aware of our sexual drives and needs when most of
us were entering what was then the Third Year (Year 9 in modern UK
education speak). So, on that count, I would rule that out for the
exchanges between Harry and Draco at this point in time.

Regarding sexual tension between them, I was a pupil at a single-sex
secondary school from 11 onwards. Now, it still may be the case, but
we often explored our sexual feelings with other friends by getting
together to bring each other to satisfaction, usually through
masturbation. There was no deeper physical connection because
homosexuality was illegal at that time and there was no way that we
poor semi-innocent mid-teens could find out any more.

But that didn't make us gay unless that rocked our boat. I can see the
possibility for that sort of exploratory relationship between the guys
at Hogwarts but I believe that our personal ideas about sexual
orientation develop a bit later. Mark you, the idea of Harry and Draco
as an item is an intriguing one. I have read some interesting fanfic
going along this when I get into a "What would have happened if?"
frame of mind.

Sharon again:
I do actually agree with you there. I was just being flippant -- sorry to all for that. I'm a huge fan of the Harry/Draco SHIP and so was just throwing in a little joke.  Again I do apologise.

Sharon, who can't seem to be serious for two minutes at a time, even when talking about serious issues.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Fri Jan 11 02:10:04 2008
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 02:10:04 -0000
Subject: MOVED from MAIN - "sequels" to the classics
In-Reply-To: <294513.42869.qm@web34414.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <fm6j5s+plh9@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Lynn - horsenstuff at ..." 
<horsenstuff at ...> wrote:
<SNIP>
> HP entered the "public domain" in my opinion when it
> hit the shelves and readers hands.  It has caused a
> great response.  For the most part people just
> spending tons of money and enjoy the mania.
> 
> For some though,  it has touched deeper.  Moved them
> in some way.  And caused a creative response.
> 
> I for one do not want to be a mere consumer, spending
> my money, enjoying and disposing afterward.  I think,
> feel and respond to what I take the time to read, see,
> experience, whatever.
> 
> So if some idea occurs to me that enriches what I have
> chosen to spend my money on and experience, and if I
> happen to also come up with a valid literary work of
> the highest quality that would be acceptable to the
> originator of "some" of the content of my work, then I
> revert back to the horse remake example.
> 
> It happens in other realms.  Perhaps it's time that
> the publishing world caught up.


Alla:

I am sorry. I love fanfiction very much. I hope JKR will continue to 
support it, but I have to take an exception to "it entered public 
domain" when the books are finished POV. Sorry, unless you were 
speaking very metaphorically, the books are not in public domain. 
She did not surrender her copyright by finishing the books.

And I hope what happened to Marion Zimmer Bradley will never happen 
to her as well.

I mean, she did not even stated for certain that she will not write 
any more sequels in Potterverse. She said at first that she will 
not, then she mention that her daughter wants her too, etc. 

I by the way prefer that she would not go the "sequels road", unless 
the story will be very very different, but if she will, I certainly 
hope that some obnoxious fan will not dare to sue her claiming that 
she stole his ideas.

Case at point - LOLLYPOPS. Several people guessed on Main as long as 
five years ago that Snape Lily is coming. But also as we know many 
many fanfics explored that road. I am glad no suits were coming her 
way on that issue.






From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri Jan 11 02:52:00 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 02:52:00 -0000
Subject: Dummy trademarks by Warner Brothers (was Re: Copyright infringement question
In-Reply-To: <fm47s4+m511@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fm6lkg+vjn7@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" <tonks_op at ...> wrote:
>
> Carol asked me to post this when I found it.
> 
> The place where the discussion about Warner Brothers and trademarks 
> for dummy movie names, etc. to throw people off the real one was a 
> discussion at Mugglenet. It was in one of the notes of their podcast 
> #45.
> 
> Here is how to find all of the dead titles that WB filed a trademark 
> for and then abandoned when the real title was announced.
> 
> Go to this page and push on the first link for 'New User Form Search 
> Basic' and type in: Harry Potter and the  
> 
> and you will see them all.
> 
> http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/gate.exe?f=tess&state=bdnpt7.1.1
> 
> Tonks_op
>
Carol responds:

Thanks, Tonks. That link has expired, but I found the fake titles by
going to the main page, http://tess2.uspto.gov/ , clicking Trademarks,
and, IIRC, clicking Search. I printed the page for future reference.
Too bad we didn't get "Harry Potter and the Mudblood Revolt," but, of
course, JKR wouldn't have used that phrase. I also liked "Harry Potter
and the Hogwarts Hallows," which is nicely alliterative and would have
given us more of dear old Hogwarts.

I also did a search (I forget from what page) to see a list of
trademarks registered to Warner Bros. Oddly, Ron Weasley, Scabbers,
Gilderoy Lockhart, Hogwarts, and a few other names were listed, but
most of the characters, including Severus Snape and Voldemort, were not.

Carol, as ever puzzled by the workings of government and big business




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Fri Jan 11 03:09:33 2008
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 03:09:33 -0000
Subject: MOVED from MAIN - "sequels" to the classics
In-Reply-To: <8CA21F50A104442-15DC-2010@Webmail-mg08.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <fm6mld+oim4@eGroups.com>

> Julie:
> 
> In this vein?there are a couple of recent authors who 
have "retold" classic 
> tales or scenes/characters therein, both in very creative ways. 
The first is
> Geoffrey McGuire, who has written several novels telling classic 
tales from a
> different POV, resulting in quite different perspectives on the 
traditional heroes
> and villians in?those tales. Wicked (from the POV of the Wicked 
Witch of the 
> West in the Wizard of Oz) and Confessions of an Ugly Stepsister 
(from the POV
> of one of Cinderella's much-maligned stepsisters) are both 
riveting novels, IMO. 
> 
> The other author is Jasper Fforde, who has written the Tuesday 
Next novels,
> including The Eyre Affair and Lost in a Good Book. <SNIP>

Alla:

Julie OMG I LOVE Jasper Fforde, love love love. But I do not think 
his books have anything to do with fanfiction, except him indeed 
playing in those books, no?

I think he is amazing and highly recommend any of his books and 
especially Thursday.


Oh, oh and if you have a link to that fanfic about Thursday and 
Snape, I would love to read it if it is well done.

I have heard about Wicked of course, but for some reason do not wish 
to read it - since I am guessing that witch will come sympathetic, 
etc.

I guess it is too subversive for me, I would never go for example 
for reading Voldemort's POV. I may read Snape's POV though, heeee.


> Magpie:
> I seem to remember Sydney doing great posts about this on main and 
> saying that--Lizzie's big moment is when she gets the letter and 
> realizes how wrong she's been. After that it's more just working 
> everything out. I loved all the stuff she wrote on P&P.
> 
> -m (H/D shipper--but never equated Draco with Darcy)
>


Alla:

Hmmm, I do wonder what the argument was then if she was saying that 
letter was a big reversal as well. Must search for those posts at 
some point.






From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Fri Jan 11 03:23:31 2008
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 03:23:31 -0000
Subject: MOVED from MAIN - "sequels" to the classics
In-Reply-To: <fm6mld+oim4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fm6nfj+fg3f@eGroups.com>

> > Magpie:
> > I seem to remember Sydney doing great posts about this on main and 
> > saying that--Lizzie's big moment is when she gets the letter and 
> > realizes how wrong she's been. After that it's more just working 
> > everything out. I loved all the stuff she wrote on P&P.
> > 
> > -m (H/D shipper--but never equated Draco with Darcy)


> Alla:
> 
> Hmmm, I do wonder what the argument was then if she was saying that 
> letter was a big reversal as well. Must search for those posts at 
> some point.

Magpie:
Iirc, there was a discussion about whether Lizzie was 'really wrong' 
about Darcy or not. Like, that some felt that Lizzie never really 
thought Wickham was great or that Darcy was relatively bad, she just 
thought he was a little rude. So the letter wasn't that big of a change 
for Lizzie. Sydney was arguing that Lizzie absolutely was wrong about 
Darcy and was very shaken up to realize just how wrong.

Ooh--found that post. It's Neri who thinks Elizabeth isn't wrong about 
Darcy:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/155571

I loved that discussion.:-)

-m





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri Jan 11 03:27:10 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 03:27:10 -0000
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Fan_fiction_in_general__was:_=09MOVED_from_MAIN_-_"sequels"_to_the_classics?=
In-Reply-To: <fm5hh2+ejc0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fm6nme+c9c3@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "coriandra2002"
<coriandra2002 at ...> wrote:
>
> If any of you are or hope to be published writers (as I do sometime in
> the future) how would you feel about fan fiction writing in your
universe?
> 
> My position would be: don't ask don't tell.  I'd rather not have
> people killing off my characters or writing slash or incest stories
> about them.  But because there's so little control over that on the
> internet, I'd try to encourage good writing by linking some high
> quality archives to my website and try to ignore the more tawdry ones.
>
Carol responds:

That's a really interesting question. Certainly, if I were a
children's author, I wouldn't want X-rated stories written using my
characters. that aside, how I think I would feel and how I would
actually feel may be two different things: I have no emotional
investment in a hypothetical question, whereas I would certainly care
about my characters.

What I would *not* do is to stifle discussion or interpretation of my
characters in any way. But literary criticism and fanfic are opposite
reactions to a literary work. One analyzes and interprets what the
author has written, the other strives to expand or recreate the work.
And while it must be flattering for a writer to discover that readers
care enough to fantasize and write about her characters, posting
fanfic on the Internet (as opposed to writing a handwritten fanfic
that no one but a few close friends will ever see) does strike me as a
form of intellectual theft akin to plagiarism. It's a form of
publication even though the fanfic writer isn't being paid.

I think I would be most opposed to the fanficing (sp?) of my 
characters if I were planning to write a sequel or prequel or series
using the same characters as in a previous novel. That a fan can sue
the author who provided the basis and inspiration for her fanfic is
just preposterous. IMO, of course.

Carol, wondering whether the copyright laws of the U.S. and various
other countries are being rewritten even as we type to incorporate
Internet fanfiction




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri Jan 11 03:37:17 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 03:37:17 -0000
Subject: MOVED from MAIN - "sequels" to the classics
In-Reply-To: <774340.87910.qm@web34415.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <fm6o9d+qnoh@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Lynn - horsenstuff at ..."
<horsenstuff at ...> wrote:
>
> --- Carol <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:
> > <snip>
> > BTW, someone mentioned "The Madwoman in the Attic,"
> > which does refer to the mad wife of Mr. Rochester 
> > in "Jane Eyre" but is actually a book of feminist 
> > literary criticism, not a novel. The full title is
> > "Madwoman in the Attic: The Woman Writer and the
> > Nineteenth-Century Literary Imagination," and it 
> > was published in 1979. The authors, Sandra Gilbert 
> > and Susan Gubar, are well-known feminist critics 
> > who examine novels by Jane Austen, Mary Shelley, 
> > the Bront? sisters, and others for repressed 
> > sexuality or some such thing. <snip>
> 
> 
> I was not referring to a book entitled "Mad Woman in
> the Attic."  Simply using the phrase to refer to
> Rochester's first wife in Jane Eyre.
> 
> The name of the book with the "Mad Wife" I was
> referring to is "Wide Sargasso Sea" by Jean Rhys
> (sp?).
> 
> Lynn
>
Carol responds:
My apologies for the misunderstanding. I haven't read "Wide Sargasso
Sea," but evidently, Jean Rhys, herself a Creole, identified with
Rochester's Creole wife and was, as you say, inspired directly by
"Jane Eyre." It would be interesting to know whether she also read
"The Madwoman in the Attic" and what she thought of it.

Is the novel worth reading? I need something to interest me other than
Harry Potter, and, so far, even old favorites like the Austen novels
are failing to do the trick.

Carol, who thinks that "The Wide Sargasso Sea" is a beautiful title




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Fri Jan 11 03:44:57 2008
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 03:44:57 -0000
Subject: MOVED from MAIN - "sequels" to the classics
In-Reply-To: <fm6o9d+qnoh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fm6onp+u6fq@eGroups.com>

> Carol responds:
<SNIP>
> Is the novel worth reading? I need something to interest me other 
than
> Harry Potter, and, so far, even old favorites like the Austen novels
> are failing to do the trick.
> 
> Carol, who thinks that "The Wide Sargasso Sea" is a beautiful title
>

Alla:

If you do not mind series of books which is on the surface science 
fiction, but has truly fascinating plot and character developments, I 
cannot recommend Louis Mcmaster Bujold "Miles Vorkosigan" saga enough.

I know these books were mentioned here, but they are amazing IMO 
anyways.





From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Fri Jan 11 03:48:14 2008
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 03:48:14 -0000
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Fan_fiction_in_general__was:_=09MOVED_from_MAIN_-_"sequels"_to_the_classics?=
In-Reply-To: <fm6nme+c9c3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fm6otu+j32r@eGroups.com>

Carol:
> What I would *not* do is to stifle discussion or interpretation of 
my
> characters in any way. But literary criticism and fanfic are 
opposite
> reactions to a literary work. One analyzes and interprets what the
> author has written, the other strives to expand or recreate the 
work.

Magpie:
I don't think they're opposites. Fanfic can and often does encompass 
analysis. One can put forth how s/he thinks something works etc. 
through a story rather than meta. Or they can challenge something 
about the story they don't like. It's not all analyzing exactly what 
happens, but it's often a response to what's being said.

Carol:
> And while it must be flattering for a writer to discover that 
readers
> care enough to fantasize and write about her characters, posting
> fanfic on the Internet (as opposed to writing a handwritten fanfic
> that no one but a few close friends will ever see) does strike me 
as a
> form of intellectual theft akin to plagiarism. It's a form of
> publication even though the fanfic writer isn't being paid.

Magpie:
I think that's what's confusing about the Internet, because it's kind 
of like publishing, but it's also a social situation. On-line fandom 
is kind of like sitting in a virtual basement, imo. Fanfic is shared 
amongst fans just the way it used to be distributed amongst friends 
or through 'zines. 

But whatever it is, it's not plagiarism, because I think that's very 
specific. Plagiarism requires you to use a certain amount of actual 
text--and there also has to be an intention to deceive. Fanfic 
doesn't attempt to deceive anyone. On the contrary, the whole point 
is that you know the source material--and it starts with warnings and 
disclaimers which not legally saying anything pretty much say that 
the characters and world belong to the original creator. 

Carol:
> I think I would be most opposed to the fanficing (sp?) of my 
> characters if I were planning to write a sequel or prequel or series
> using the same characters as in a previous novel. That a fan can sue
> the author who provided the basis and inspiration for her fanfic is
> just preposterous. IMO, of course.

Magpie:
That's interesting--why if you were writing a sequel or prequel? Oh, 
I see--because of the Lackey thing. But that was a very specific 
situation that was a little weird iirc. As a fan you can sue the 
creator of any series if you have an actual case for something. 
(Think of that person who sued JKR claiming that she'd stolen her 
book that was written pre-HP--she wasn't a fanfic writer but still 
tried to sue for a similar reason.)

What authors don't do is *read* fanfic. If an author read a fanfic 
and actually took the story, they'd have lifted an idea and made 
money off it just as anybody else would. 

On the other side, some fanfic writers wound up being published--
their fics, I mean. I think Star Trek people went legit that way, for 
instance.

rol:
> 
> Carol, wondering whether the copyright laws of the U.S. and various
> other countries are being rewritten even as we type to incorporate
> Internet fanfiction

Magpie:
Mostly there's a lot of arguing over "fair use" that I've seen, with 
both sides thinking they're obviously right and hitting each other 
with dozens of metaphors about using somebody's characters, none of 
which really work.:-) 

In some countries copyright laws are already very different--at a 
panel I went to on this somebody said that where they were from there 
was a best-seller LOTR fanfic that was actually published because 
they don't have the same copyright laws. (The whole concept's 
probably relatively recent in the world.)

-m





From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Fri Jan 11 04:28:06 2008
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 04:28:06 -0000
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Fan_fiction_in_general__was:_=09MOVED_from_MAIN_-_"sequels"_to_the_classics?=
In-Reply-To: <fm6otu+j32r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fm6r8m+tup3@eGroups.com>

> Magpie:
> I don't think they're opposites. Fanfic can and often does 
encompass 
> analysis. One can put forth how s/he thinks something works etc. 
> through a story rather than meta. Or they can challenge something 
> about the story they don't like. It's not all analyzing exactly 
what 
> happens, but it's often a response to what's being said.

Alla:

Yes, it is form of the argument, agreed.

 
>> Magpie:
> That's interesting--why if you were writing a sequel or prequel? 
Oh, 
> I see--because of the Lackey thing. But that was a very specific 
> situation that was a little weird iirc. As a fan you can sue the 
> creator of any series if you have an actual case for something. 
> (Think of that person who sued JKR claiming that she'd stolen her 
> book that was written pre-HP--she wasn't a fanfic writer but still 
> tried to sue for a similar reason.)


Alla:
 Bradley, not Lackey?

Yes, you could of course, just as anybody can sue anybody. But my 
response to this would be that saying that **fanfic author** had an 
idea which creator stole from him, is how to put it nicely? 
Obnoxious to the extreme. Without author creating universe and 
characters no idea about them would enter the head of the fan in the 
first place.

Say, some sort of the idea - take LOLLYPOPS again entered the 
creator's head and fan's head roughly at the same time. Do you think 
fan's claim that he or she thought of this first should even be 
entertained?

Granted, I am speaking not from legal POV here, even though I am a 
lawyer, I am speaking from what I consider basic consideration 
towards the author, you know?

How can one even know when author first thought of it, you know?

And somebody who wrote FANFIC dares to sue the author? I dislike it 
very much.



Magpie: 
> What authors don't do is *read* fanfic. If an author read a fanfic 
> and actually took the story, they'd have lifted an idea and made 
> money off it just as anybody else would. 

Alla:

How do you know though that author does not read fanfictions? I hope 
they do not otherwise I am sure at least some of fans would go to 
court claiming that their ideas were stolen.

But didn't JKR say that she read in some fanfics that Harry loses 
his magic as the ending to the saga and even only for that reason 
she would not do this ending, since she does not want to be accused 
of stealing it?

The bottom line I agree that it is very hard to maintain control 
over Interner, but I think she can do A LOT more things to restrict 
fanfic to some degree.


Magpie:
> On the other side, some fanfic writers wound up being published--
> their fics, I mean. I think Star Trek people went legit that way, 
for 
> instance.
>

Alla:

Yes, courtesy of the copyright holders, no? Lackey selects some 
fanfics to be printed too.




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Fri Jan 11 04:48:05 2008
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 04:48:05 -0000
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Fan_fiction_in_general__was:_=09MOVED_from_MAIN_-_"sequels"_to_the_classics?=
In-Reply-To: <fm6r8m+tup3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fm6se5+htl1@eGroups.com>

> Alla:
>  Bradley, not Lackey?
> 
> Yes, you could of course, just as anybody can sue anybody. But my 
> response to this would be that saying that **fanfic author** had 
an 
> idea which creator stole from him, is how to put it nicely? 
> Obnoxious to the extreme. Without author creating universe and 
> characters no idea about them would enter the head of the fan in 
the 
> first place.

Alla:

Just to clarify I was not saying that you are arguing obnoxious 
ideas, I was and am saying that fan who sues author claiming that he 
stole ideas from the fan is obnoxious to the extreme.


 
Alla:
> The bottom line I agree that it is very hard to maintain control 
> over Interner, but I think she can do A LOT more things to 
restrict 
> fanfic to some degree.
>
Alla:

While I am clarifying things, I will say that I meant to write she 
COULD do more things and she does not. For which as fanfic reader I 
am very grateful.





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri Jan 11 04:52:41 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 04:52:41 -0000
Subject: Unlikely pairings - moved from MAIN again :)
In-Reply-To: <fm66kp+hm44@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fm6smp+nso2@eGroups.com>

Alla wrote:
<snip>

> By the way, speaking about Pride and prejudice, I remember Neri 
arguing at some point on Main that reversal in Lizzy's views happens
after the letter from Darcy pretty much and not that very dramatic at
the end. Um, anybody can tell me why this is not true?
> 
> I reread the book not that often last time, but watched BBC series
and latest American adaptation recently. Lizzie is shocked when she
gets the letter and that causes reevaluation, not that she is one
hundred percent sure in his innocence, but neither is she sure in his
guilt any more. Does anything more dramatic happen after that? I mean
sure before the letter she thinks of him as villain who did not treat
poor Wickham well, but after that she is just not sure?  And even when
he helps Lidia, I did not feel it was more shocking for Lizzie than
reading the letter.

Carol responds:

"Pride and Prejudice spoilers follow. If you're one of the five people
alive today who haven't read the book or seen the movie, please stop
here. 

*

*

*

*

*

*

"Pride and Prejudice" has a classic plot structure rather like that of
a three-act or five-act play. The first half of the book is rising
action leading up to the climax (the letter), and the second half is
falling action leading to the resolution or denouement (Darcy's
proposal and Lizzy's acceptance). That doesn't mean that Lizzy has
nothing more to suffer (Wickham's elopement with Lydia) or discover
(Darcy's role in getting them married and providing them with an
income) in the second half, and it takes awhile for her embarrassment
over her misjudgment of Darcy to fade and for her to recognize her
love for him. He, of course, has to overcome the sting of being called
ungentlemanly and develop gentler manners (off-page) and they have to
overcome a few obstacles (the elopement, Lady Catherine, etc.), but
there's no end-of-the-novel climax as in more modern novels, where the
reader expects the tension and complications to build until almost the
end of the book (as in all the HP novels).

Carol, hoping that this twice-interrupted post is coherent and almost
ready to fall asleep








From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Fri Jan 11 05:06:09 2008
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 05:06:09 -0000
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Fan_fiction_in_general__was:_=09MOVED_from_MAIN_-_"sequels"_to_the_classics?=
In-Reply-To: <fm6r8m+tup3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fm6tg1+lhl7@eGroups.com>

> >> Magpie:
> > That's interesting--why if you were writing a sequel or prequel? 
> Oh, 
> > I see--because of the Lackey thing. But that was a very specific 
> > situation that was a little weird iirc. As a fan you can sue the 
> > creator of any series if you have an actual case for something. 
> > (Think of that person who sued JKR claiming that she'd stolen her 
> > book that was written pre-HP--she wasn't a fanfic writer but 
still 
> > tried to sue for a similar reason.)
> 
> 
> Alla:
>  Bradley, not Lackey?

Magpie:
D'oh! I meant Lackey.

Alla:> 
> Yes, you could of course, just as anybody can sue anybody. But my 
> response to this would be that saying that **fanfic author** had an 
> idea which creator stole from him, is how to put it nicely? 
> Obnoxious to the extreme. Without author creating universe and 
> characters no idea about them would enter the head of the fan in 
the 
> first place.

Magpie:
Sure, I see your point. It's just as weird for some random person to 
claim that some famous author stole their idea--like that Larry 
Trotter person or whatever it was called. The fanfic community is 
very vocal against stuff like this--when some girl tried to sell her 
Star Wars fic for something on Amazon they were up in arms about this 
being a terrible thing. 

I once read all the stuff about what happened with the Bradley thing, 
but I think part of what was going on was that there was some contact 
between the two. That's why I've always assumed authors don't read 
fanfic--they can just say they've never seen anything anybody's 
written. 

Alla:> 
> Say, some sort of the idea - take LOLLYPOPS again entered the 
> creator's head and fan's head roughly at the same time. Do you 
think 
> fan's claim that he or she thought of this first should even be 
> entertained?

Magpie:
Nope--and certainly that happened. There were plenty of Lollipops 
stories pre-DH. It was nothing new. But the fanfic community didn't 
think JKR stole the idea, nor, I don't think, would any fanfic author 
have had a leg to stand on if they did. It wasn't a problem. As you 
say, you couldn't say who thought of it first. (Actually in this case 
you could, because JKR could probably show a lot of evidence that it 
had always been true for her even before she wrote the first book.) 
Somebody on HP4GU could have done the same thing, say they predicted 
Lollipops and JKR stole it.

Alla:
> And somebody who wrote FANFIC dares to sue the author? I dislike it 
> very much.

Magpie:
And the fanfic community is very quick to smack down anybody who 
tries to claim ownership of the canon. I would suspect the main thing 
that gave the Lackey person anything like credit was that this was 
something the author was officially involved with.


> Magpie: 
> > What authors don't do is *read* fanfic. If an author read a 
fanfic 
> > and actually took the story, they'd have lifted an idea and made 
> > money off it just as anybody else would. 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> How do you know though that author does not read fanfictions? I 
hope 
> they do not otherwise I am sure at least some of fans would go to 
> court claiming that their ideas were stolen.

Magpie:
I've always heard they didn't read fanfic because of exactly this--
it's a bad idea legally to start reading fanfics. Much cleaner to 
just say "I don't read fanfic, period. Whatever anybody might claim I 
saw, I didn't."

Are we sure JKR was talking about (re: Harry losing his magic etc.) 
fanfic and not just speculation or things she's heard about? I can't 
imagine the woman's sitting around reading fanfic herself. Even 
without wanting to just keep it separate it doesn't seem like a good 
idea to start mixing your own version of the characters with other 
peoples' versions. HBP was full of fanfic cliches; that was part of 
the fun. But I don't think when anybody said "JKR's been reading 
fic!" they really meant it. It was more assumed that the fanfic had 
picked up on stuff already in the text.

Alla:
> The bottom line I agree that it is very hard to maintain control 
> over Interner, but I think she can do A LOT more things to restrict 
> fanfic to some degree.

Magpie:
Absolutely she could. I'm glad that she doesn't. Anne Rice just made 
a big point of publically saying she hated it. For the most part the 
fanfic stopped afaik.
> 
> 
> Magpie:
> > On the other side, some fanfic writers wound up being published--
> > their fics, I mean. I think Star Trek people went legit that way, 
> for 
> > instance.
> >
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Yes, courtesy of the copyright holders, no? Lackey selects some 
> fanfics to be printed too.

Magpie:
Of course courtesy of the copyright holders. I'm not sure what you're 
asking about. I'm just saying that fanfic is a part of fandom and so 
not necessarily something an author considers a threat or an insult 
to him/her. I don't think the Lackey case would be brought up so much 
of this were an on-going problem of authors getting sued--there are 
plenty of crazy fan stories that go beyond that one. You name it a 
fan has probably done it. The Internet's bringing together the public 
artwork and the previously private way that people in fandom interact 
with it. It's not even just fanfic--look at the fights creators and 
fans will get into for instance. They didn't used to be able to 
eavesdrop on fandom so easily.

-m
>





From Schlobin at aol.com  Fri Jan 11 06:51:02 2008
From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176)
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 06:51:02 -0000
Subject: madwomen
In-Reply-To: <774340.87910.qm@web34415.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <fm73km+se60@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Lynn - horsenstuff at ..." 
<horsenstuff at ...> wrote:
>
> --- Carol <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:
> > <snip>
> > BTW, someone mentioned "The Madwoman in the Attic,"
> > which does refer to the mad wife of Mr. Rochester 
> > in "Jane Eyre" but is actually a book of feminist 
> > literary criticism, not a novel. The full title is
> > "Madwoman in the Attic: The Woman Writer and the
> > Nineteenth-Century Literary Imagination," and it 
> > was published in 1979. The authors, Sandra Gilbert 
> > and Susan Gubar, are well-known feminist critics 
> > who examine novels by Jane Austen, Mary Shelley, 
> > the Bront? sisters, and others for repressed 
> > sexuality or some such thing. <snip>
> 
> 
>
The title is drawn from Charlotte Bront?'s Jane Eyre, in which 
Rochester's mad wife Bertha stays locked in the attic.

The text specifically examines Jane Austen, Mary Shelley, Charlotte 
and Emily Bront?, George Eliot, and Emily Dickinson.

Gilbert and Gubar examine the notion that women writers of the 19th 
Century were essentially "madwomen" because of the restrictive gender 
categories enforced upon them both privately and professionally. In 
their re-examination of these writers, they argue that madness often 
became a metaphor for suppressed female revolt and anger. They write 
that the madwoman "is usually in some sense that author's double, an 
image of her own anxiety and rage." 

This is more how I remember that book.

Susan





From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Fri Jan 11 07:18:22 2008
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 07:18:22 -0000
Subject: Unlikely pairings - moved from MAIN again :)
In-Reply-To: <fm66kp+hm44@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fm757u+a3dk@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" 
<dumbledore11214 at ...> wrote:
>
> Geoff:
> <SNIP>
> Mark you, the idea of Harry and Draco
> as an item is an intriguing one. I have read some interesting fanfic
> going along this when I get into a "What would have happened if?"
> frame of mind.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Absolutely, as I said upthread I totally know why people SHIP 
> Harry/Draco ? same reason why I SHIP Snape/ Sirius ? classic "thin 
> line from love to hate", etc.
> And no, I do not think that sexual tension was between two eleven 
> year olds, but I sure understand how it can be read that way.

<snip>
 
> It is interesting though that as unlikely as I always found both 
> pairings to come true, I always felt more sympathetic for 
> Snape/Sirius, because up to certain point I saw some goodness in 
> Snape as well and never saw any in Draco.

Geoff:
We take diametrically opposed views. I've never been able to drum up 
any excitement about Snape. He is never a character who has grabbed 
me, either to dislike or to like.

Whereas with Draco, I often wonder about what would have happened 
if the handshake had gone ahead... But that of course would have 
disrupted the whole dramatic tension between the houses, wouldn't it?




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Fri Jan 11 16:02:53 2008
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 16:02:53 -0000
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Fan_fiction_in_general__was:_=09MOVED_from_MAIN_-_"sequels"_to_the_classics?=
In-Reply-To: <fm6tg1+lhl7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fm83vd+l5t9@eGroups.com>

Alla:>
> Say, some sort of the idea - take LOLLYPOPS again entered the
> creator's head and fan's head roughly at the same time. Do you
think
> fan's claim that he or she thought of this first should even be
> entertained?

Magpie:
Nope--and certainly that happened. There were plenty of Lollipops
stories pre-DH. It was nothing new. But the fanfic community didn't
think JKR stole the idea, nor, I don't think, would any fanfic author
have had a leg to stand on if they did. It wasn't a problem. As you
say, you couldn't say who thought of it first. (Actually in this case
you could, because JKR could probably show a lot of evidence that it
had always been true for her even before she wrote the first book.)
Somebody on HP4GU could have done the same thing, say they predicted
Lollipops and JKR stole it.

Alla:

Right I know there were many stories about LOLLYPOPS preDH, that is 
why I brought them as example.

Alla:
> And somebody who wrote FANFIC dares to sue the author? I dislike it
> very much.

Magpie:
And the fanfic community is very quick to smack down anybody who
tries to claim ownership of the canon. I would suspect the main thing
that gave the Lackey person anything like credit was that this was
something the author was officially involved with.

Alla:

Right, that's all I am saying really ? I think that somebody who 
tries claiming ownership of the canon should be slapped and hard. I 
think fanfic writers should always remember that they are playing in 
somebody else's playground and I do know that many of them do. It is 
not theirs. I know I am saying obvious things, but it looks like not 
everybody considers them obvious ( not you)

Magpie:
I've always heard they didn't read fanfic because of exactly this--
it's a bad idea legally to start reading fanfics. Much cleaner to
just say "I don't read fanfic, period. Whatever anybody might claim I
saw, I didn't."

Are we sure JKR was talking about (re: Harry losing his magic etc.)
fanfic and not just speculation or things she's heard about? I can't
imagine the woman's sitting around reading fanfic herself. Even
without wanting to just keep it separate it doesn't seem like a good
idea to start mixing your own version of the characters with other
peoples' versions. HBP was full of fanfic cliches; that was part of
the fun. But I don't think when anybody said "JKR's been reading
fic!" they really meant it. It was more assumed that the fanfic had
picked up on stuff already in the text.

Alla:

Right, no of course I am not sure, I am speaking from memory and 
maybe she is speaking about the things she heard only. Personally I 
hope she does not read fanfiction, but I definitely know as I 
mentioned before that Mercedes Lackey for example selects some 
fanfics for the antologies (Voldemar related, etc), so she definitely 
reads them.

Magpie:
> > On the other side, some fanfic writers wound up being published--
> > their fics, I mean. I think Star Trek people went legit that way,
> for
> > instance.
> >
>
> Alla:
>
> Yes, courtesy of the copyright holders, no? Lackey selects some
> fanfics to be printed too.

Magpie:
Of course courtesy of the copyright holders. I'm not sure what you're
asking about. I'm just saying that fanfic is a part of fandom and so
not necessarily something an author considers a threat or an insult
to him/her.
<SNIP>

Alla:

I was just saying that Star Treck did not went in print just because 
fans felt like it and did it, they did it because they were **allowed 
to**, no?

And sure it is not necessarily a threat to the author, most people 
just want to have fun in that playground, but I think it is a very 
reasonable argument that it could be a threat from some people at 
least.





From horsenstuff at yahoo.com  Fri Jan 11 15:52:49 2008
From: horsenstuff at yahoo.com (Lynn - horsenstuff@yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 07:52:49 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Response about Wide Sargasso Sea
In-Reply-To: <fm6o9d+qnoh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <892181.75041.qm@web34407.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I hope I am posting this right.  Trying to learn
how...

WSS is worth reading as I recall.  Of course,  it
feeds into my favorite novel "Jane Eyre."

The movie is another thing.  It has "much flesh" as a
friend told me when she recommended it to me.

It does explain what could have happened well.  I
won't say more as I don't want to give it away.

Lynn





      



From horsenstuff at yahoo.com  Fri Jan 11 16:01:38 2008
From: horsenstuff at yahoo.com (Lynn - horsenstuff@yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 08:01:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: MOVED from MAIN - "sequels" to the classics
In-Reply-To: <fm6j5s+plh9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <844228.47204.qm@web34404.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

"Public domain"  - add "of thought."  It's there - we
can't not think about it.  

Copyright is another matter.  

This is a very stimulating discussion.  There will
never be agreement about the place of what I feel can
be called "response literature" to some great work.
Not just a fantasy about some aspect of it.  But
literature.  Like Jean Rhys.  

Too bad.  It sounds like it has to wait for us all to
die for any of it to get out there in a legitimate
way.

I for one do not in any way feel comfortable just
"posting it on the net."  I would if I didn't really
care about it.  For others to do so, that is fine, if
that's what they want out of it.

Lynn




      



From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Fri Jan 11 17:44:22 2008
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 17:44:22 -0000
Subject: Celeb Gossip: Normal Boy Does Normal Thing
Message-ID: <fm89tm+7lku@eGroups.com>

I don't know if you've been watching the on-line celeb news 
lately, but it seems that Dan Radcliffe was seen at a London
nightclub 'Crazy Larry' with some of his pals. Apparently,
he gave the bartender ?500 (approx US$1,000), so he and his
pals could have food and drink and than pay each time, 
they could draw on this deposit. Dan danced and chatted with
two blond girls and later left with one of them.

Now, my purpose in posting this in the group isn't to engage
in gossip-mongering, but to lend perspective to the inflamed
rhetoric being used by most news reports.

First let me sum up this story -

"Normal Boy Does Normal Thing"

?500 for a bar tab; keep in mind that this was a very posh
club where the young Chelsea trust fund crowd hangs out. I
suspect many of these people spend this much on a typical 
night out with friends. Especially when they live in the
most expensive city in the world. And for perspective, 
relative to Dan's total net worth, that is the equivalent of
us regular people spending $1.00 or less. That's a candy bar 
at the local convenience store.

Next, there is the assertion that Dan was 'boozing it up',
yet there is nothing in any of the stories to indicate that 
Dan was anything other than a well behaved gentleman, and 
no assertion at all that he was actually drinking, which I
remind people is a perfectly legal activity. 

Next, not actually stated, but the implication is that Dan
was, you should pardon the expression, 'whoring it up'
because he left with one of the girls. First and foremost,
we don't know where they went. Maybe, and likely, they
just went somewhere quiet for coffee to get acquainted. I
will also remind people that IF he did take this girl to
his home, not likely since he lives with his parents, and
if they did engage in intimate activity, that is also 
legal.

And besides 'boy likes girl' is that really a news flash?
Is that really any different than the other few hundred 
people that were in that same night club? 

So, the correct version of this story is a normal rich boy
went out with some of his normal rich friends, they went to
a nice club (legal) which by the way was filled with a few
hundred other people all doing the same thing, laughed (legal),
danced (legal), had a few drinks (legal), chatted up a few 
girls (legal), in the end, made a new friend (also legal), and
spend what is the proportional equivalent to you or I buying
a candy bar (also legal). 

Yes, it is interesting, but really, it is hardly news even 
when you add in the inflamed overwrought language.

Enquiring minds really don't want to know.

Steven/bboyminn




From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Fri Jan 11 18:21:33 2008
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 18:21:33 -0000
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Fan_fiction_in_general__was:_=09MOVED_from_MAIN_-_"sequels"_to_the_classics?=
In-Reply-To: <fm83vd+l5t9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fm8c3d+ar6r@eGroups.com>

> Alla:
> 
> Right, that's all I am saying really ? I think that somebody who 
> tries claiming ownership of the canon should be slapped and hard. 
I 
> think fanfic writers should always remember that they are playing 
in 
> somebody else's playground and I do know that many of them do. It 
is 
> not theirs. I know I am saying obvious things, but it looks like 
not 
> everybody considers them obvious ( not you)

Magpie:
I think for the most part they do--though sometimes people will 
point to different behavior that they think shows they don't know 
they're playing in someone else's world, because different fans have 
different ideas of how fanfic "should" be written. 

For instance, there are some people who always think it should 
be 'close to canon'--they stick to character pairings and things 
they feel could have happened between the lines or afterwards. Other 
people make no bones about writing what interests them even if it 
goes directly against what the author seems to like or be interested 
in. I tend to think it's really all about what the fanfic author 
wants to read or write.

As just another fan personally I lean with the second group. 
Ironically, I find the first group more presumptive. If you're not 
the author, your story isn't any "more canonical" than anyone else's 
story. You can't go slipping anything in expecting people to take it 
as "what really happened" any more than anyone else. And also I 
don't really see the point in keeping to the idea of "what the 
author would like" as you write unless you like it yourself because 
the author's not going to read it probably so you might as well say 
what you want to say. I remember one discussion that really proved 
the point to me, where there was a fanfic author who was 
very "canonical" but got called on a technical thing she always did 
that was wrong. Instead of doing what she claimed to do--which was 
take the author's word as law--she argued the text into her own 
interpretation. I just would have preferred it if she said, "Oh 
yeah, I got that wrong. But I love writing about it my way, so in my 
fanfic I pretend this is the case." I can completely understand it 
if part of the suspension of disbelief involves the real author--
sometimes it's just hard to buy a story if it seems to go against 
the "feel" of the universe or whatever.

But fans are always happy to police their community, in my 
experience.:-) Reading this thread I started to think about that 
singer Selena who was murdered by a fan. That's not something a 
person has to worry about from most fans--you just want to be on the 
lookout for the potential crazy person and take some precautions 
against that.

> Magpie:
> Of course courtesy of the copyright holders. I'm not sure what 
you're
> asking about. I'm just saying that fanfic is a part of fandom and 
so
> not necessarily something an author considers a threat or an insult
> to him/her.
> <SNIP>
> 
> Alla:
> 
> I was just saying that Star Treck did not went in print just 
because 
> fans felt like it and did it, they did it because they were 
**allowed 
> to**, no?

Magpie:
Yes, they submitted their story ideas to the show or to the 
publishers and they were bought. ST being a series it has lots of 
authors anyway, of course, but in order to be published they had to 
stay within the guidelines of the series while in fanfic you can go 
all over the place. I might mention that while I've never written 
fanfic I have written tie-in novels and that's a big difference 
between the two. Nobody's getting their Kirk/Spock published as a 
Star Trek tie-in.

Alla: 
> And sure it is not necessarily a threat to the author, most people 
> just want to have fun in that playground, but I think it is a very 
> reasonable argument that it could be a threat from some people at 
> least.

Magpie:
Absolutely--Selena again. People are known to get killed by fans and 
it doesn't get more threatening than that! To me, as I said, I think 
a big change comes from the Internet because it's its own world 
where people are doing very different things and sometimes the 
social and interpretative world of fandom is turned into something 
more like publishing when that's not exactly what it is. It's both 
public and private.

-m




From juli17 at aol.com  Fri Jan 11 18:43:26 2008
From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 13:43:26 -0500
Subject: MOVED from MAIN - "sequels" to the classics
In-Reply-To: <1200034264.1747.85218.m42@yahoogroups.com>
References: <1200034264.1747.85218.m42@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <8CA2298FC5F4719-108-316@WEBMAIL-MB08.sysops.aol.com>




Alla:

Julie OMG I LOVE Jasper Fforde, love love love. But I do not think 
his books have anything to do with fanfiction, except him indeed 
playing in those books, no?

I think he is amazing and highly recommend any of his books and 
especially Thursday.

Oh, oh and if you have a link to that fanfic about Thursday and 
Snape, I would love to read it if it is well done.



I have heard about Wicked of course, but for some reason do not wish 
to read it - since I am guessing that witch will come sympathetic, 
etc.

I guess it is too subversive for me, I would never go for example 
for reading Voldemort's POV. I may read Snape's POV though, heeee.


Julie:
It's true Jasper Fforde has created his own quirky universe with the Tuesday Next
novels, but the aspect of using and further developing certain literary characters 
like Hamlet and Miss Haversham does reflect that similar aspect of fanfic. (And it's
why I find it a bit--just a bit--ironic that Fforde has spoken out against fanfic based
on his works ;-)

Sorry, I don't know the link to that HP/Tuesday Next crossover, since I read it
awhile ago and later couldn't find it again. (I do think it was on Fanfiction.net,
but not even sure about that!)

Regarding Wicked, the witch does come off more sympathetic in the same way
Snape comes off sympathetic based on his past, his experiences, etc--that
bad choices are made, but they are sometimes if not understandable at least 
explicable. Actually, my favorite by Gregory McGuire is Confessions of an Ugly
Stepsister, as it is set in the real world of historic Haarlem. (I've never been
a big fan of straight fantasy--like the world of Oz--as I prefer a connection
to the real world in some way, hence my love of Harry Potter I suppose ;-)
I highly recommend that novel, particularly if you are also a fan of history
and the classic period of Dutch art.

Julie 




________________________________________________________________________
More new features than ever.  Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri Jan 11 18:43:47 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 18:43:47 -0000
Subject: Profiteroles?
Message-ID: <fm8dd3+4ouc@eGroups.com>

Emma Watson recently commented that she's been filling up on
profiteroles during the filming of Slughorn's Christmas party for HBP:

http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/2008/1/10/emma-watson-updates-about-filming-slughorn-s-party-scene-in-half-blood-prince

What on earth are profiteroles?

Carol, happy that the Christmas party will be in the film and hoping
that the Snape/Draco confrontation will be there, too, as close as
possible to the book version




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri Jan 11 19:03:39 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 19:03:39 -0000
Subject: MOVED from MAIN - "sequels" to the classics
In-Reply-To: <fm6nfj+fg3f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fm8eib+gmdh@eGroups.com>

Magpie:
> Iirc, there was a discussion about whether Lizzie was 'really wrong'
about Darcy or not. Like, that some felt that Lizzie never really 
thought Wickham was great or that Darcy was relatively bad, she just
thought he was a little rude. So the letter wasn't that big of a
change for Lizzie. Sydney was arguing that Lizzie absolutely was wrong
about Darcy and was very shaken up to realize just how wrong.
> 
> Ooh--found that post. It's Neri who thinks Elizabeth isn't wrong
about Darcy:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/155571
> 
> I loved that discussion.:-)

Carol responds:

Thanks for the link. Sydney's response to Neri is brilliant. Does
anyone know whether the List Elves are still adding to the Recommended
Posts file? If so, I nominate this one. (I know it centers on P&P, but
it also uses HP canon to establish a credible parallel between
Elizabeth's view of Darcy and Harry's of Snape.)

Carol, who will happily offlist the Elves with her recommendation if
that's the proper procedure and the file is still open




From n2fgc at arrl.net  Fri Jan 11 19:06:20 2008
From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Lee Storm(God Is The Healing Force))
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:06:20 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Profiteroles?
In-Reply-To: <fm8dd3+4ouc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <001101c85485$0d24acb0$67a4a8c0@FRODO>

[Carol wrote]:
| Emma Watson recently commented that she's been filling up on
| profiteroles during the filming of Slughorn's Christmas party for HBP:
| 
| What on earth are profiteroles?

[Lee]:
>From my Google search, looks like some kind of delectable little cakes.  I
know...it sounds like drugs, but it's food. :-)

Cheers,

Lee :-)

Do not walk behind me,    | Lee Storm
I may not care to lead;   | N2FGC
Do not walk before me,    | n2fgc at arrl.net (or)
I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at optonline.net
Walk beside me, and be my friend.





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri Jan 11 19:11:17 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 19:11:17 -0000
Subject: MOVED from MAIN - "sequels" to the classics
In-Reply-To: <fm6onp+u6fq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fm8f0l+tqlg@eGroups.com>

Alla:
> 
> If you do not mind series of books which is on the surface science 
> fiction, but has truly fascinating plot and character developments, I 
> cannot recommend Louis Mcmaster Bujold "Miles Vorkosigan" saga enough.
> 
> I know these books were mentioned here, but they are amazing IMO 
> anyways.
>
Carol responds:

Thanks, Alla. What's the title of the first novel in the series and
what are they about?

Carol, now wondering whether historical novels featuring real
historical figures (e.g., Richard III or Anne Boleyn or Lady Jane
Grey) constitute fanfic of a sort even though the authors whose
"characters" are being borrowed are historians rather than novelists 




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Fri Jan 11 19:43:59 2008
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 19:43:59 -0000
Subject: MOVED from MAIN - "sequels" to the classics
In-Reply-To: <fm8f0l+tqlg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fm8gtv+r2r0@eGroups.com>

> Carol responds:
> 
> Thanks, Alla. What's the title of the first novel in the series and
> what are they about?
><SNIP>

Alla:
Beware it has spoilers though, but if you start reading it will give 
you the general overview only and then table of contexts will give you 
novels in chronological order.
After the table they give rather detailed overview of plot.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vorkosigan_Saga





From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Fri Jan 11 20:01:57 2008
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 20:01:57 -0000
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Fan_fiction_in_general__was:_=09MOVED_from_MAIN_-_"sequels"_to_the_classics?=
In-Reply-To: <fm8c3d+ar6r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fm8hvl+jlmc@eGroups.com>

Magpie:
> I think for the most part they do--though sometimes people will 
> point to different behavior that they think shows they don't know 
> they're playing in someone else's world, because different fans 
have 
> different ideas of how fanfic "should" be written. 
> 
> For instance, there are some people who always think it should 
> be 'close to canon'--they stick to character pairings and things 
> they feel could have happened between the lines or afterwards. 
Other 
> people make no bones about writing what interests them even if it 
> goes directly against what the author seems to like or be 
interested 
> in. I tend to think it's really all about what the fanfic author 
> wants to read or write.
> 
> As just another fan personally I lean with the second group. 
> Ironically, I find the first group more presumptive. If you're not 
> the author, your story isn't any "more canonical" than anyone 
else's 
> story. You can't go slipping anything in expecting people to take 
it 
> as "what really happened" any more than anyone else. And also I 
> don't really see the point in keeping to the idea of "what the 
> author would like" as you write unless you like it yourself because 
> the author's not going to read it probably so you might as well say 
> what you want to say. I remember one discussion that really proved 
> the point to me, where there was a fanfic author who was 
> very "canonical" but got called on a technical thing she always did 
> that was wrong. Instead of doing what she claimed to do--which was 
> take the author's word as law--she argued the text into her own 
> interpretation. I just would have preferred it if she said, "Oh 
> yeah, I got that wrong. But I love writing about it my way, so in 
my 
> fanfic I pretend this is the case." I can completely understand it 
> if part of the suspension of disbelief involves the real author--
> sometimes it's just hard to buy a story if it seems to go against 
> the "feel" of the universe or whatever.

Alla:

Oh I absolutely agree that writer should just write about what 
interests him in a universe and go in whatever direction she likes, 
but I will tell you one thing, as a reader, I always prefer fanfics 
to be rooted in canon, I mean, they all are, but I guess I am trying 
to say that I prefer the first group TO THE EXTENT.

And it has nothing to do with whether author will like it or not, 
since I only read fanfics and do not write them. It has everything to 
do with the reason why I as reader go look for fanfics. I go look for 
fanfics because I want to have deeper exploration of something that 
occurred in canon. To put it simply ? if I want Harry to join 
Voldemort, well, I don't want that, but if I want to read a story 
where hero is seduced by dark that much, I will go look for original 
story with that. I do not believe Harry in canon will ever join 
Voldemort, so fanfic where he does not interest me.

Heee, this is also a reason why so few Harry/Draco fanfics interest 
me ? because I believe that in order to write credible Harry/ Draco 
you have to assign the fallings to Harry that he does not possess in 
canon and by the same token you have to assign goodness to Draco 
which he does not possess. I had started reading some wonderfully 
written stories about those two, but there are only two that I truly 
enjoyed. And when I recommended one to someone who is Draco fan first 
and foremost, she told me that for her Harry is too good in that 
story and Draco is too subdued. While for me Harry was sooo far from 
being too good and in that story Draco's path was the only path I 
could see those two EVER credibly getting together. I am sure you 
guessed it ? Draco had to go through incredibly painful change of his 
views and NO, Harry's journey was just as painful but NOT about 
changing his views.

Anyways, what I am trying to say that I prefer characters to be 
recognizable, that is only my view of course, but if I want to read 
about characters that do something totally not canonical, I will go 
pick up original writing, you know?

That does not mean that I want 100% sticking to canon, I do not mind 
character DEVELOPMENT, but I want the starting point to be canon at 
least and I want it to be slow.

And another thing, I had to acknowledge the AU stories after Sirius 
died, LOL. Wanted to read about him and Harry getting happy ending. 
But I still wanted characters to be recognizable at least.

JMO,

Alla







From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri Jan 11 20:46:32 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 20:46:32 -0000
Subject: Fan fiction in general  (was:  MOVED from MAIN - "sequels" to the classics)
In-Reply-To: <fm6otu+j32r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fm8kj8+p8ch@eGroups.com>

Magpie wrote:
> <snip>
> But whatever it is, it's not plagiarism, because I think that's very
specific. Plagiarism requires you to use a certain amount of actual 
text--and there also has to be an intention to deceive. Fanfic 
doesn't attempt to deceive anyone. On the contrary, the whole point is
that you know the source material--and it starts with warnings and 
disclaimers which not legally saying anything pretty much say that the
characters and world belong to the original creator. 

Carol responds:

First, please note that I said "akin to plagiarism," not plagiarism
per se. Also, plagiarism, unlike copyright violation, *does* cover the
use of other people's ideas even if you don't use their exact words.
If you use another person's ideas without crediting your source, for
example, you're plagiarizing whether or not you intended to deceive. A
bad paraphrase that retains vestiges of the original wording can also
be regarded as plagiarism, depending on the policies of the particular
university (or scholarly publisher).

Anyway, here are some links to what constitutes plagiarism at two
different universities:

http://www.student.mq.edu.au/plagiarism/

http://www.bio.miami.edu/dana/161/plagiarism.html

You'll notice that the guidelines closely resemble each other. Other
universities, including the one where I taught until 1998, have
similar policies. 

Teachers can fail students for plagiarism and universities can expel
them, but it's unclear (to me) what an author can do to protect
herself from having her titles, characters, and ideas borrowed or
stolen since copyright law applies only to the work as a whole (with
"fair use" as a protection for those who wish to discuss and quote
from the work without copyright infringement; in a published work,
even "fair use" generally requires permission from the copyright
owner). And no reputable publisher will knowingly publish fanfiction
based on the works of a living author unless the author permits it.
(IIRC, there are authorized "Star Wars" sequels, and I'm aware of one
author who writes authorized "Monk" novels--"Monk" being a TV series
about a detective with OCD, for anyone unfamiliar with it.) But submit
"Severus Snape and the Marauders" to any reputable publishing house
and see how far you get.

Ho wall this applies to Internet fanfic, I'm still not sure. Fanfic
writers, as you say, generally include a disclaimer stating that the
characters belong to the author or owner of the copyright/trademark,
and most fanfic writers, I would hope, have sense enough not to use
exact wording from the books whose characters and settings they're
using. But you don't have to violate copyright law to commit
plagiarism (intellectual dishonesty), which is probably why an author
can sue fanfic writers (and, sadly, vice versa). The fanfic writer who
sued what's her name wasn't suing over exact words but over a concept
or plot development, right? An author who borrows another person's
words is, of course, risking a lawsuit. But ideas and characters?
That's where it gets shaky. (Didn't someone try to sue JKR for
"stealing" the word "Muggle" from her books? Why wouldn't it work the
other way around? And if ideas, titles, and characters aren't
protected by copyright law, what grounds does JKR have for suing the
Lexicon, which properly cites all of its quoted material?) 

Carol, now thoroughly confused and not in the least tempted to write
fanfiction!




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri Jan 11 21:05:52 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 21:05:52 -0000
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Fan_fiction_in_general__was:_=09MOVED_from_MAIN_-_"sequels"_to_the_classics?=
In-Reply-To: <fm6r8m+tup3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fm8lng+fg2m@eGroups.com>

Alla wrote:
>  <snip> But my response to this would be that saying that **fanfic
author** had an idea which creator stole from him, is how to put it
nicely? Obnoxious to the extreme. Without author creating universe and
characters no idea about them would enter the head of the fan in the
first place.

Carol responds:

My sentiments exactly.
> 
Alla:
> Say, some sort of the idea - take LOLLYPOPS again entered the 
> creator's head and fan's head roughly at the same time. Do you think 
> fan's claim that he or she thought of this first should even be 
> entertained?
> 
> Granted, I am speaking not from legal POV here, even though I am a 
> lawyer, I am speaking from what I consider basic consideration 
> towards the author, you know?
> 
> How can one even know when author first thought of it, you know?
<snip>

Caarol responds:

How about dated notes in a Word document? Unfortunately, handwritten
notes and sketches like JKR's can't be precisely dated, unless she
submits photocopies to her publisher in a dated document or refers to
them in a saved and dated e-mail message, but a computer document with
a date on it would provide solid evidence that she had come up with
the idea before the fanfic was published.

But an author shouldn't *have* to provide any such evidence relating
to her own works. As you say, the characters and world that the fanfic
writer is writing about wouldn't even exist if the original author
hadn't created them.

Of course, literary analysis also depends on the original work, but
the goal of the literary critic is to understand the work and present
a possible interpretation that others can agree or disagree with,
whereas fanfic seeks to alter or expand the original work, altering
the characters and their situations in ways that literary analysis
does not. (Of course, analysts can speculate about a character's
motives, but they don't put words into the characters' mouths.)

Carol, noting that reviews and criticism are specifically protected
under "fair use" 




From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Fri Jan 11 21:10:13 2008
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 21:10:13 -0000
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Fan_fiction_in_general__was:_=09MOVED_from_MAIN_-_"sequels"_to_the_classics?=
In-Reply-To: <fm8hvl+jlmc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fm8lvl+hiuq@eGroups.com>

Alla:
> Anyways, what I am trying to say that I prefer characters to be 
> recognizable, that is only my view of course, but if I want to read 
> about characters that do something totally not canonical, I will go 
> pick up original writing, you know?

Magpie:
Oh, I agree--though I think different people have different things 
that will pull them out of a story depending on what they've already 
got in their heads. Which is why it's great that there's a lot of 
fanfic and they all come with labels that say "this is the kind of 
story where X happens..." Because people don't read fanfic for the 
same reason they read original fic imo. There are some wildly crazy 
things I can work with, while some minor thing will throw me out of 
the story.

It's like I always remember reading this post about keeping the 
characters recognizable and canonical and in character, otherwise it 
wasn't them etc. The characters shouldn't do stuff they didn't do. But 
then for fun I looked to see what this person wrote: Harry/Snape 
slash. Err...so these two would have sex after class in the Potions 
room? I wouldn't think so...

But the thing is I know what the author meant. She was paying 
attention to character details. But Harry/Snape was an adjustment she 
had no problem making.:-)

-m




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Fri Jan 11 21:15:08 2008
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 21:15:08 -0000
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Fan_fiction_in_general__was:_=09MOVED_from_MAIN_-_"sequels"_to_the_classics?=
In-Reply-To: <fm8lvl+hiuq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fm8m8s+e7fv@eGroups.com>

> Magpie:
> Oh, I agree--though I think different people have different things 
> that will pull them out of a story depending on what they've 
already 
> got in their heads. Which is why it's great that there's a lot of 
> fanfic and they all come with labels that say "this is the kind of 
> story where X happens..." Because people don't read fanfic for the 
> same reason they read original fic imo. There are some wildly crazy 
> things I can work with, while some minor thing will throw me out of 
> the story.
> 
> It's like I always remember reading this post about keeping the 
> characters recognizable and canonical and in character, otherwise 
it 
> wasn't them etc. The characters shouldn't do stuff they didn't do. 
But 
> then for fun I looked to see what this person wrote: Harry/Snape 
> slash. Err...so these two would have sex after class in the Potions 
> room? I wouldn't think so...
> 
> But the thing is I know what the author meant. She was paying 
> attention to character details. But Harry/Snape was an adjustment 
she 
> had no problem making.:-)
>

Alla:

Oh LOL. Exactly, yes. I would read slash between those two as well, 
if I guess characters are in character?

Like, sure slash between them would never happen, but like for 
example I could buy slash between Harry and Snape AFTER he graduated 
and went through some things. I would never buy that while Harry was 
in school, ever.

But have you noticed the word could? After I read that Snape loved 
Lily, I cannot buy slash with him anymore, you know?

Not in canon, enough said for me.

Alla




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri Jan 11 21:20:29 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 21:20:29 -0000
Subject: Fan fiction in general  (was: MOVED from MAIN - "sequels" to the classics)
In-Reply-To: <fm6se5+htl1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fm8mit+mg3k@eGroups.com>

Alla wrote:
> <snip> While I am clarifying things, I will say that I meant to
write she [JKR] COULD do more things and she does not. For which as
fanfic reader I am very grateful.
>
Carol responds:

But *could* she do more? What does she do now (Lexicon suit and that
castle in India and "He's my character" aside), and what restrictions
could she legally institute and effectively enforce against Internet
fanfic if she so chose? That's the question, and I'm not sure anyone
has the answers at this point. What grounds would she have for a
ceas-and-desist injunction, how could it be enforced, and could she
win the case if it were brought to court? And are there any other
sanctions or preventive measures other than "cease and desist" (which,
BTW, is redundant).

Carol, feeling as if the Internet has turned the world she once knew
upside down




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Fri Jan 11 21:30:35 2008
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 21:30:35 -0000
Subject: Fan fiction in general  (was: MOVED from MAIN - "sequels" to the classics)
In-Reply-To: <fm8mit+mg3k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fm8n5r+jrlt@eGroups.com>

> Carol responds:
> 
> But *could* she do more? What does she do now (Lexicon suit and that
> castle in India and "He's my character" aside), and what 
restrictions
> could she legally institute and effectively enforce against Internet
> fanfic if she so chose? That's the question, and I'm not sure anyone
> has the answers at this point. What grounds would she have for a
> ceas-and-desist injunction, how could it be enforced, and could she
> win the case if it were brought to court? And are there any other
> sanctions or preventive measures other than "cease and desist" 
(which,
> BTW, is redundant).
> 
> Carol, feeling as if the Internet has turned the world she once knew
> upside down
>


Alla:

Well, when I said she could do more, I did not mean that she could go 
after every single fan of course. I know you did not say that, just 
saying.

She could simply do what (supposedly) Anne Rice did, right?

Just saying loudly - shut it guys. Would everybody do it? Surely not, 
many will not, but some will respect her wishes enough, me thinks.

I do not know if she could do that much more legally - maybe she 
could 
but I have no clue.

But she could certainly voice her unhappiness me thinks.

Do not get me wrong, I am glad she did not, but I think that people 
should appreciate that she did not.

And yes, I know that many many do appreciate it. I know that as 
fanfic reader I certainly do.

Alla




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri Jan 11 21:38:10 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 21:38:10 -0000
Subject: madwomen
In-Reply-To: <fm73km+se60@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fm8nk2+cadn@eGroups.com>

Carol earlier:
> > > <snip>
> > > BTW, someone mentioned "The Madwoman in the Attic," which does
refer to the mad wife of Mr. Rochester in "Jane Eyre" but is actually
a book of feminist literary criticism, not a novel. The full title is
"Madwoman in the Attic: The Woman Writer and the Nineteenth-Century
Literary Imagination," and it was published in 1979. The authors,
Sandra Gilbert and Susan Gubar, are well-known feminist critics who
examine novels by Jane Austen, Mary Shelley, the Bront? sisters, and
others for repressed sexuality or some such thing. <snip>
> > 
Susan responded:
> The title is drawn from Charlotte Bront?'s Jane Eyre, in which 
> Rochester's mad wife Bertha stays locked in the attic.
> 
> The text specifically examines Jane Austen, Mary Shelley, Charlotte 
> and Emily Bront?, George Eliot, and Emily Dickinson.
> 
> Gilbert and Gubar examine the notion that women writers of the 19th
Century were essentially "madwomen" because of the restrictive gender
categories enforced upon them both privately and professionally. In
their re-examination of these writers, they argue that madness often
became a metaphor for suppressed female revolt and anger. They write
that the madwoman "is usually in some sense that author's double, an
image of her own anxiety and rage." 
> 
> This is more how I remember that book.

Carol responds:

You're quoting a source here, right? Can you cite your source and
provide a link for anyone who's interested?

"Restrictive gender categories" does sound like the sort of phrasing
Gilbert and Gubar would use, but as I'm not a feminist critic, I
haven't incorporated their jargon into my vocabulary, and it's been at
least fifteen years since I read the book.

Carol, who did say that the title, "The Madwoman in the Attic," refers
specifically to the mad wife of Mr. Rochester in "Jane Eyre" and did
refer to her as Bertha in another post




From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Fri Jan 11 21:40:27 2008
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 21:40:27 -0000
Subject: Fan fiction in general  (was:  MOVED from MAIN - "sequels" to the classics)
In-Reply-To: <fm8kj8+p8ch@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fm8nob+gafh@eGroups.com>

> Magpie wrote:
> > <snip>
> > But whatever it is, it's not plagiarism, because I think that's 
very
> specific. Plagiarism requires you to use a certain amount of 
actual 
> text--and there also has to be an intention to deceive. Fanfic 
> doesn't attempt to deceive anyone. On the contrary, the whole 
point is
> that you know the source material--and it starts with warnings and 
> disclaimers which not legally saying anything pretty much say that 
the
> characters and world belong to the original creator. 
> 
> Carol responds:
> 
> First, please note that I said "akin to plagiarism," not plagiarism
> per se. Also, plagiarism, unlike copyright violation, *does* cover 
the
> use of other people's ideas even if you don't use their exact 
words.
> If you use another person's ideas without crediting your source, 
for
> example, you're plagiarizing whether or not you intended to 
deceive. A
> bad paraphrase that retains vestiges of the original wording can 
also
> be regarded as plagiarism, depending on the policies of the 
particular
> university (or scholarly publisher).

Magpie:
Sorry about the "akin to plagiarism"--I didn't think you thought it 
was exactly the same thing. I still think, though, that fanfic is 
missing the all-important intent to deceive. The fanfic author isn't 
intending for anyone to think that Harry Potter or Sirius Black is 
his/her original character. On the contrary, the story is written 
for people who know that source material well and doesn't work as 
well if you're outside that group. Fanfic is generally written by 
and for fans of the original story. The vestiges of the original 
story are the basis of the fanfic and intended to be recognized for 
what they are. 

That's different from writing a paper and taking ideas and passing 
them off as your own or not crediting them--especially when you add 
to it the fact that fanfic is usually part of an on-going 
conversation between fans that's a combination of analysis and play. 
Fanfics are often not even referencing the source material but 
outside material, fandom discussions and of course other fanfics. 
(Or sometimes also challenges and story requirements or requests.)

Carol:
> Teachers can fail students for plagiarism and universities can 
expel
> them, but it's unclear (to me) what an author can do to protect
> herself from having her titles, characters, and ideas borrowed or
> stolen since copyright law applies only to the work as a whole 
(with
> "fair use" as a protection for those who wish to discuss and quote
> from the work without copyright infringement; in a published work,
> even "fair use" generally requires permission from the copyright
> owner). And no reputable publisher will knowingly publish 
fanfiction
> based on the works of a living author unless the author permits it.
> (IIRC, there are authorized "Star Wars" sequels, and I'm aware of 
one
> author who writes authorized "Monk" novels--"Monk" being a TV 
series
> about a detective with OCD, for anyone unfamiliar with it.) But 
submit
> "Severus Snape and the Marauders" to any reputable publishing house
> and see how far you get.

Magpie:
Right. I have written tie-in novels and they are approved every step 
of the way by the owners of the franchise. And of course most fanfic 
is unpublishable even if it didn't have copyright problems.:-) There 
are fanfic writers who also write original fic, of course, and they 
know the difference between the two very well. They're not trying to 
get their fanfic published.

Carol: 
> Ho wall this applies to Internet fanfic, I'm still not sure. Fanfic
> writers, as you say, generally include a disclaimer stating that 
the
> characters belong to the author or owner of the 
copyright/trademark,
> and most fanfic writers, I would hope, have sense enough not to use
> exact wording from the books whose characters and settings they're
> using. But you don't have to violate copyright law to commit
> plagiarism (intellectual dishonesty), which is probably why an 
author
> can sue fanfic writers (and, sadly, vice versa). 

Magpie:
In general, there's little fear that a fanfic author is going to be 
able to be intellectually dishonest in terms of stealing ideas from 
the author (other fanfic writers are a different story, of course, 
though fanficcers also freely reference each other) since his/her 
audience knows the source material. Often far better than the 
average person. They could attempt to sue and author claiming the 
author stole an idea--but so could anybody, really. That Larry 
Trotter lady, for instance.

The question of what an author could or couldn't do is a grey area. 
>From what I've seen, authors who are very anti-fanfic are usually 
vocal about it and as a result they don't get fanfic much written 
about their stuff. I admit the arguments I've heard from some 
authors about how much they hate fanfic are very unconvincing and 
odd to me--Robin Hobbs wrote an impassioned piece that said, among 
other things, that when she left a scene off-page she wanted the 
reader to imagine what happened in that space and that fanfic 
writers ruined this by writing a story about it. Seemed a bit odd to 
me since the fanfic writer was in fact doing just what Hobbs 
expected--they were imagining what happened in that space--with the 
understanding that this was not what "really" happened, just that 
author's idea of what could have happened. 

Anti-fanfic arguments also sometimes jump back and forth between 
aesthetics and money--fanfic writers are pathetic because they can't 
make up their own characters, but when many tie-in novels are 
brought in that's different because you're being paid to do it 
(which would indicate at least that there's nothing inherently 
pathetic about writing about characters you didn't create).

That's why fanfic always seems so natural to me. I may never have 
written it down besides a few stories written with friends when I 
was a kid, but I've written fanfic in my head as long as I can 
remember.

Carol:
The fanfic writer who
> sued what's her name wasn't suing over exact words but over a 
concept
> or plot development, right? An author who borrows another person's
> words is, of course, risking a lawsuit. But ideas and characters?
> That's where it gets shaky. (Didn't someone try to sue JKR for
> "stealing" the word "Muggle" from her books? Why wouldn't it work 
the
> other way around? And if ideas, titles, and characters aren't
> protected by copyright law, what grounds does JKR have for suing 
the
> Lexicon, which properly cites all of its quoted material?) 

Magpie:
Yes, someone tried to sue her for stealing a number of things 
including the word Muggle--this was in a book that was written 
before HP. But there was also money involved. A fanfic author isn't 
making money off the work. And the Muggle lawsuit also implied that 
JKR was passing off the word Muggle as her own creation.

I guess we'll see what grounds JKR has against the Lexicon. I was 
reading an article on Slate today that said that what she claimed 
was preventing the publication of her own encyclopedia was actually 
just competition.

Then there's also the fact that nowadays fan power is getting more 
respected. In reality fanfic doesn't take away from the original 
source or author, it feeds it (and certainly at least some 
corporations have started to look for a way that they can make money 
off fanfic even if they fanfic writers don't!).

To me it seems like it's really just a question of the creator and 
the fans getting shoved together so things fans have always done are 
now being heard. So you get creators arguing with disgruntled fans 
on-line or producers listening to conversations hoping to get more 
success. And fanfic is now getting referenced in the shows itself. 
TV writers might add moments they know will play into certain fan 
ideas. Or they'll just reference it flat-out--a few weeks ago on 
Ugly Betty guest star Betty White said, "I love my fans. Except for 
those sickos that write lesbian fanfiction about me and Bea Arthur!"

-m




From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Fri Jan 11 21:42:39 2008
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 21:42:39 -0000
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Fan_fiction_in_general__was:_=09MOVED_from_MAIN_-_"sequels"_to_the_classics?=
In-Reply-To: <fm8m8s+e7fv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fm8nsf+7qtk@eGroups.com>

> Alla:

> Like, sure slash between them would never happen, but like for 
> example I could buy slash between Harry and Snape AFTER he graduated 
> and went through some things. I would never buy that while Harry was 
> in school, ever.
> 
> But have you noticed the word could? After I read that Snape loved 
> Lily, I cannot buy slash with him anymore, you know?
> 
> Not in canon, enough said for me.

Magpie:
I totally understand. I remember somebody who always wrote about 
Sirius saying that after he died they said, "Big deal, I'll just write 
fanfic that's AU!" but then they found they couldn't. 

That's another reason I don't like her constant off-the-cuff facts in 
interviews. They really can shut doors in your imagination for no 
reason.

-m




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri Jan 11 21:45:45 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 21:45:45 -0000
Subject: Response about Wide Sargasso Sea
In-Reply-To: <892181.75041.qm@web34407.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <fm8o29+oe4s@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Lynn - horsenstuff at ..."
<horsenstuff at ...> wrote:
>
> I hope I am posting this right.  Trying to learn
> how...
> 
> WSS is worth reading as I recall.  Of course,  it
> feeds into my favorite novel "Jane Eyre."
> 
> The movie is another thing.  It has "much flesh" as a
> friend told me when she recommended it to me.
> 
> It does explain what could have happened well.  I
> won't say more as I don't want to give it away.
> 
> Lynn
>
Carol responds:

Thanks. I'm also a fan of "Jane Eyre" and taught it in several
second-semester composition classes in the 1980s and '90s. I'll have a
look at "Wide Sargasso Sea" next time I'm in a bookstore. (I'm not
really interested in the film, only the book at this point.)

Carol, with apologies for too many posts in a row 




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Fri Jan 11 21:54:05 2008
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 21:54:05 -0000
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Fan_fiction_in_general__was:_=09MOVED_from_MAIN_-_"sequels"_to_the_classics?=
In-Reply-To: <fm8nsf+7qtk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fm8oht+s4g3@eGroups.com>

> > Alla:
<SNIP>
>> > But have you noticed the word could? After I read that Snape loved 
> > Lily, I cannot buy slash with him anymore, you know?
> > 
> > Not in canon, enough said for me.
> 
> Magpie:
> I totally understand. I remember somebody who always wrote about 
> Sirius saying that after he died they said, "Big deal, I'll just 
write 
> fanfic that's AU!" but then they found they couldn't. 
> 
> That's another reason I don't like her constant off-the-cuff facts in 
> interviews. They really can shut doors in your imagination for no 
> reason.
>



Alla:

I think for me to buy it in fanfic there should be a **tiny** 
possibility that it may happen in canon - just TINY, a spark of it.

That is why Sirius comes back stories may work for me - because there 
was no body, etc.

That is why Snape came back may work for me, you know?

And that is why Snape loving Harry or Sirius will not work for me 
anymore - because I know that he loved Lily and that's all.

I will still read well done slash, but will not be able to buy it fully.

On the other hand, I still buy into Sirius/remus slash, etc.




From coriandra2002 at yahoo.com  Fri Jan 11 21:55:31 2008
From: coriandra2002 at yahoo.com (coriandra2002)
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 21:55:31 -0000
Subject: Fan fiction in general was: MOVED from MAIN - "sequels" to the
Message-ID: <fm8okj+fmg7@eGroups.com>

Tonks:

I do not like fanfiction. I don't read it, and I don't write it. My
view is that fanfiction is a lot like playing a game and cheating.
There is no glory in winning that way.
                         *
What "glory" does a fanfiction writer expect anywhere except on their
own computers?  The best they can hope for is some nice reviews,
recognition in fan fiction communities and maybe even some new
friends, but certainly no public recognition.  It's strictly a hobby
for most writers. 

Carol:

I think I would be most opposed to the fanficing (sp?) of my
characters if I were planning to write a sequel or prequel or series
using the same characters as in a previous novel. That a fan can sue
the author who provided the basis and inspiration for her fanfic is
just preposterous. IMO, of course.
                                  *
How could a fan fic writer possibly sue, or even openly complain when
the fan fiction writer is the one breaking law?  It seems to me the
case would laughed right out of court, and if it isn't, it should be.

I don't see why writers shouldn't read fan fics if they want to.

Magpie:

What authors don't do is *read* fanfic. If an author read a fanfic
and actually took the story, they'd have lifted an idea and made
money off it just as anybody else would. 

Perhaps, but a fan fic writer would have a heck of time proving that
in court, even if they somehow did, there's no money or public
recognition in fan fiction so what harm did the original author do them?




From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Fri Jan 11 22:03:21 2008
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 22:03:21 -0000
Subject: madwomen
In-Reply-To: <fm8nk2+cadn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fm8p39+chms@eGroups.com>

> Carol responds:
> 
> You're quoting a source here, right? Can you cite your source and
> provide a link for anyone who's interested?
> 
> "Restrictive gender categories" does sound like the sort of 
phrasing
> Gilbert and Gubar would use, but as I'm not a feminist critic, I
> haven't incorporated their jargon into my vocabulary, and it's 
been at
> least fifteen years since I read the book.
> 
> Carol, who did say that the title, "The Madwoman in the Attic," 
refers
> specifically to the mad wife of Mr. Rochester in "Jane Eyre" and 
did
> refer to her as Bertha in another post

Magpie:
OT (but that's the point of this group) my advisor in college 
referenced this book all the time, and I believe it was she that 
created our English Department Tee-shirts (for English majors). I 
still have mine. The back says Smith College English Department and 
the front says FREE BERTHA ROCHESTER

-m (who always loved Bertha)




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Fri Jan 11 22:06:57 2008
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 22:06:57 -0000
Subject: Profiteroles?
In-Reply-To: <fm8dd3+4ouc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fm8pa1+peev@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:
>
> Emma Watson recently commented that she's been filling up on
> profiteroles during the filming of Slughorn's Christmas party for HBP:
> 
> http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/2008/1/10/emma-watson-updates-about-
filming-slughorn-s-party-scene-in-half-blood-prince
> 
> What on earth are profiteroles?
> 
> Carol, happy that the Christmas party will be in the film and hoping
> that the Snape/Draco confrontation will be there, too, as close as
> possible to the book version

Geoff:
Oh, they're delicious and very more-ish. If you've not had one., you 
haven't lived.

Dictionary definition:
"a small ball of choux pastry, filled with cream and covered with 
chocolate sauce". They're usually about one and a half inches diameter 
and my description would be rather like a mini chocolate eclair.....

My chocoholic self is stirring the thought. Mmmm.
:-)





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri Jan 11 23:50:08 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 23:50:08 -0000
Subject: MOVED from MAIN - "sequels" to the classics
In-Reply-To: <fm8gtv+r2r0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fm8vbg+gk7o@eGroups.com>

Carol earlier:
> > 
> > Thanks, Alla. What's the title of the first novel in the series and
> > what are they about?
> ><SNIP>
> 
> Alla:
> Beware it has spoilers though, but if you start reading it will give 
> you the general overview only and then table of contexts will give you 
> novels in chronological order.
> After the table they give rather detailed overview of plot.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vorkosigan_Saga
>
Carol:
Thanks, Alla, but I want to avoid spoilers. Maybe I'd better just
check Amazon for the titles.

Carol, who thought of the Volsung Saga when she saw this link




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 12 00:03:50 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 00:03:50 -0000
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Fan_fiction_in_general__was:_=09MOVED_from_MAIN_-_"sequels"_to_the_classics?=
In-Reply-To: <fm8nsf+7qtk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fm9056+7vpq@eGroups.com>

> Magpie:
> I totally understand. I remember somebody who always wrote about 
> Sirius saying that after he died they said, "Big deal, I'll just write 
> fanfic that's AU!" but then they found they couldn't. 
> 
> That's another reason I don't like her constant off-the-cuff facts in 
> interviews. They really can shut doors in your imagination for no 
> reason.

Carol responds:

"AU"? In book production, "AU" is how an editor addresses the author
in a Post-it note attached to the manuscript. How are you using it here?

Carol, agreeing about the off-the-cuff remarks shutting doors in the
reader's imagination





From jnferr at gmail.com  Sat Jan 12 00:05:22 2008
From: jnferr at gmail.com (Janette)
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 18:05:22 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Response about Wide Sargasso Sea
In-Reply-To: <fm8o29+oe4s@eGroups.com>
References: <892181.75041.qm@web34407.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	 <fm8o29+oe4s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8ee758b40801111605p47406cb8rc85a93e00e8a97e1@mail.gmail.com>

>
> Carol responds:
>
> Thanks. I'm also a fan of "Jane Eyre" and taught it in several
> second-semester composition classes in the 1980s and '90s. I'll have a
> look at "Wide Sargasso Sea" next time I'm in a bookstore. (I'm not
> really interested in the film, only the book at this point.)
>

montims:
I have to say, Wide Sargasso Sea is one of my favourite books ever.  I used
to read it (and all her other writings) regularly whenever I was angst
ridden as a teenager...  And ever since I learned how to apply makeup, and
even today, although I rarely wear makeup except when dressed up - I layer
kohl around my eyes in memory of Jean Rhys.  Wonderful woman!  Sad, sad
life...


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From jnferr at gmail.com  Sat Jan 12 00:16:00 2008
From: jnferr at gmail.com (Janette)
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 18:16:00 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: MOVED from MAIN - "sequels" to the classics
In-Reply-To: <fm8f0l+tqlg@eGroups.com>
References: <fm6onp+u6fq@eGroups.com> <fm8f0l+tqlg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8ee758b40801111616g1a76a241t4814aa7253d8b56e@mail.gmail.com>

> Carol, now wondering whether historical novels featuring real
> historical figures (e.g., Richard III or Anne Boleyn or Lady Jane
> Grey) constitute fanfic of a sort even though the authors whose
> "characters" are being borrowed are historians rather than novelists


montims:
I don't know the answer to this, as I don't read fanfic, so am not sure of
its parameters.  But as far as historical novels goes, I vehemently
recommend anything by Philippa Gregory, particularly the ones that deal with
Henry VIII.  "The other Boleyn Girl" is fantastic...


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From heidi8 at gmail.com  Sat Jan 12 00:21:49 2008
From: heidi8 at gmail.com (Heidi Tandy)
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 19:21:49 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: MOVED from MAIN - "sequels" to the classics
In-Reply-To: <8ee758b40801111616g1a76a241t4814aa7253d8b56e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <fm6onp+u6fq@eGroups.com> <fm8f0l+tqlg@eGroups.com> <8ee758b40801111616g1a76a241t4814aa7253d8b56e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1200097313.6075E49@gi31.dngr.org>


>>  Carol, now wondering whether historical novels featuring real
>>  historical figures (e.g., Richard III or Anne Boleyn or Lady Jane
>>  Grey) constitute fanfic of a sort even though the authors whose
>>  "characters" are being borrowed are historians rather than novelists
>
>

People do also write fanfic about the celebrities they're fans of, so 
under that definition, yes this could qualify.

If you want to read more modern stories about "today's celebs" - but 
fictionalized - I recommend Peter Lefcourt's *Di & I*, which came out in 
iirc 1995. It's about  a screenwriter who falls in love with Princess 
Diana and she with him. Lovely AU (note: there are sex scenes). Also, 
Stephen Fry - who some of you may know mostly from the HP uk audiobooks 
- wrote a novel called Making History about a grad student who changes 
history when he prevents Hitler from being born - obviously, there are 
some real Nazis among the characters, but also Stephen popped the 
Gallagher brothers from Oasis into the student body at Princeton.
And I'm a big fan of Harry Turtledove, who writes amazing AUs - the one 
he wrote with Richard Dreyfus - The Two Georges - is phenomenal - in 
another universe, it would be National Treasure.



From gav_fiji at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 12 01:32:30 2008
From: gav_fiji at yahoo.com (Goddlefrood)
Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 01:32:30 -0000
Subject: MOVED from MAIN - "sequels" to the classics
In-Reply-To: <8ee758b40801111616g1a76a241t4814aa7253d8b56e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <fm95be+ev32@eGroups.com>

> > Carol, now wondering whether historical novels featuring 
> > real historical figures (e.g., Richard III or Anne Boleyn 
> > or Lady Jane Grey) constitute fanfic of a sort even though 
> > the authors whose "characters" are being borrowed are 
> > historians rather than novelists

Goddlefrood:

What? Borrowed from historians? These were real people, or do 
you doubt they ever actually lived?

As to the genre of historical fiction I wouldn't put it down as 
fanfiction. Quite often a character is inserted in a relatively 
close approximation to actual historical events, while the main 
characters themselves are fictional. Examples of this would be 
Waverley by a certain W. Scott, the Flashman books by the recently 
deceased George M. Fraser the Sharpe novels of Bernard Cornwell. 

A Bloody Field by Shrewsbury by Elizabeth Pargeter is in 
a different tack. It takes real characters and events and 
fictionalises them. All the above are recommended.

> montims:
> But as far as historical novels goes, I vehemently recommend 
> anything by Philippa Gregory, particularly the ones that deal 
> with Henry VIII.  "The other Boleyn Girl" is fantastic...

Goddlefrood:

If Ms. Gregory ever has a new release arounf May then it's always 
a shoe in for my sister's birthday present.




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 12 02:08:41 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 02:08:41 -0000
Subject: MOVED from MAIN - "sequels" to the classics
In-Reply-To: <fm95be+ev32@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fm97f9+a9hi@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Goddlefrood" <gav_fiji at ...>
wrote:
>
> > > Carol, now wondering whether historical novels featuring real
historical figures (e.g., Richard III or Anne Boleyn or Lady Jane
Grey) constitute fanfic of a sort even though the authors whose
"characters" are being borrowed are historians rather than novelists
> 
> Goddlefrood:
> 
> What? Borrowed from historians? These were real people, or do 
> you doubt they ever actually lived?
> 

Carol:
Of course, I don't doubt that they actually lived, but the
fictionalized versions of some of the characters in a historical novel
 (or a "history play" by shakespeare) bear as much resemblance to the
historical figures as some fanfic characters do to the characters in
the original novels.

Not to mention that all historical accounts (even documents like the
Declaration of Independence) have some sort of bias. For example, a
French account of England under a Yorkist or Lancastrian king will
differ from an English account of the same events and people, and the
Yorkist and Lancastrian accounts will differ from each other. A Saxon
chronicler will have different biases from a Celtic chronicler of the
same period. Northerners saw matters differently from Londoners.
Objectivity was not valued in medieval times; pleasing the reigning
monarch or local lord was. Some accounts were even changed (for
example, favorable accounts of Richard III altered to suit Henry VII,
who also ordered all copies of the Parliamentary document asking
Richard III to take the throne to be burned unread. Fortunately, one
copy survived.) Or take the American Revolution. I have a feeling that
even today, Americans and Englishmen see George III rather
differently. Or should I cite Democrats and Republicans in the United
States? Even in an era that (ostensibly) values objectivity in
historical accounts, it's difficult if not impossible to find. Every
historian interprets the events differently, even working from the
same documents and taking into account the biases of the writer. Just
read the available histories and biographies relating to the Wars of
the Roses, especially Richard III, to see what I mean. Historical
novelists, having no claim to objectivity, further distort the
historical evidence, romanticizing or demonizing historical persons as
they see fit and inventing dialogue just as Shakespeare did. (Would
the real Cleopatra recognize his Cleopatra or the real King John his
John? As for Richard III, he would wonder whose imagination could
conjure such a monster and mistake it for him.

Goddlefrood:

> As to the genre of historical fiction I wouldn't put it down as 
fanfiction. Quite often a character is inserted in a relatively close
approximation to actual historical events, while the main characters
themselves are fictional. Examples of this would be Waverley by a
certain W. Scott, the Flashman books by the recently deceased George
M. Fraser the Sharpe novels of Bernard Cornwell. <snip>

Carol:
I'm by no means putting down the genre of historical fiction, which is
my favorite genre when it's done right. I have the seeds of a plan for
a historical novel of my own, but neither the time nor the money to do
the research (not to mention that I need a new eyeglass prescription
to read any original documents related to the subject--I'd probably
need a sharp-eyed amanuensis to transcribe the photocopies, not to
mention permission to use them). I enjoy really good historical
fiction, for example Sharon Kay Penman's thoroughly researched "The
Sunne in Splendour." 
>
> 
> > montims:
> > But as far as historical novels goes, I vehemently recommend 
> > anything by Philippa Gregory, particularly the ones that deal 
> > with Henry VIII.  "The other Boleyn Girl" is fantastic...
> 
Carol:
I almost used "The Other Boleyn Girl" as an example in my post, but
since I hadn't read it, I edited it out. I'm assuming that, like most
good historical novels, it takes what's known about a historical
figure (in the case of Anne Boleyn's sister or the "Girl with a Pearl
Earring", not much) in combination with accurate details about the
politics, religion, clothing, and customs of the times, and weaves
them into a compelling story of what might have happened in these
people's lives. Historical figures, important and otherwise, become
characters in a novel. It's not that different, as far as I can see,
from good fan fiction written from a thorough knowledge of an author's
works, except that, in the case of, say, Harry Potter fanfic, you're
working with the creations of a living author rather than with records
written by long-dead (and not necessarily accurate) historians, some
of them anonymous.

Carol, who still has grave reservations about fanfic and none
whatsoever about *good* historical novels




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 12 03:16:22 2008
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 03:16:22 -0000
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Fan_fiction_in_general__was:_=09MOVED_from_MAIN_-_"sequels"_to_the_classics?=
In-Reply-To: <fm9056+7vpq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fm9be6+v25b@eGroups.com>

> > Magpie:
> > I totally understand. I remember somebody who always wrote about 
> > Sirius saying that after he died they said, "Big deal, I'll just 
write 
> > fanfic that's AU!" but then they found they couldn't. 
> > 
> > That's another reason I don't like her constant off-the-cuff 
facts in 
> > interviews. They really can shut doors in your imagination for 
no 
> > reason.
> 
> Carol responds:
> 
> "AU"? In book production, "AU" is how an editor addresses the 
author
> in a Post-it note attached to the manuscript. How are you using it 
here?
> 
<SNIP>


Alla:

I cannot be 100% sure of course, but I am pretty sure :) that Magpie 
meant Alternate Universe story.




From minnesotatiffany at hotmail.com  Sat Jan 12 04:07:23 2008
From: minnesotatiffany at hotmail.com (Tiffany B. Clark)
Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 04:07:23 -0000
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Fan_fiction_in_general__was:_=09MOVED_from_MAIN_-_"sequels"_to_the_classics?=
In-Reply-To: <fm9be6+v25b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fm9edr+gbjb@eGroups.com>

> Carol responds:
> 
> "AU"? In book production, "AU" is how an editor addresses the author
in a Post-it note attached to the manuscript. How are you using it 
here?
 
> Alla:
> 
> I cannot be 100% sure of course, but I am pretty sure :) that Magpie  
meant Alternate Universe story.

Tiffany:

I'm sure Magpie meant Altenate Universe story also because I've read 
enough sci-fi & fantasy after nabbing SS in '97 to what AU is in those 
genres.




From doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 12 05:47:39 2008
From: doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com (doddiemoemoe)
Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 05:47:39 -0000
Subject: Profiteroles?
In-Reply-To: <fm8pa1+peev@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fm9k9r+6foi@eGroups.com>

 
> > What on earth are profiteroles?
> > 
Basically cream puffs....

In 'American terms'...a cream filled vanity cake that is often 
drizzled with choco or caramel sauce OR...a cream filled vanity cake 
that can be "dipped" into choco or Caramel sauce..





From doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 12 06:33:54 2008
From: doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com (doddiemoemoe)
Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 06:33:54 -0000
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Fan_fiction_in_general__was:_=09MOVED_from_MAIN_-_"sequels"_to_the_classics?=
In-Reply-To: <fm8lng+fg2m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fm9n0i+d1l7@eGroups.com>

well, massive snip because it doesn't matter...

The most printed non-authorized HP sequel will be written and 
published wwwaaayyyy after any of us are still living..JKR's leagal 
team will prevent anyone from doing otherwise...

Hence the Lexicon battle....it's not about JKR...it's about JKR's 
attorneys...


Years from now...someone could try to publish a fan fic based on the 
lexicon rather than JK works...this is what the court battle will be 
about...WB in the end..prob. simply wants Lexi steve to admonish 
said readers...which in my opinion..is wrong...

Sorry....JKR and WB should have complained from the beginning(can 
you imagine how different, if not difficult JKR's life would have 
been w/o the lexicon...not to mention the publisher's sites etc...

However neither did not...and for one reason probably....that 
certain websites kept up increased their profits..

I dunno it's stinky to me...

Because if we believe the media....then steve cannot publish his 
book before JKR's(what JK legal camp says)....and all Steve was 
publishing was that big ol' web site that all public has had access 
to for all these years...I'm sorry but I don't get it...say what you 
want but don't put it on the web...and if you do, that's okay...but 
be prepared for most u.s. courts to declare it public domain...at 
least for most of the books..which no one ever sued steve for..

However, given how so many fans hated JKR's epilogue, and what JKR 
gave us and how much more she has to tell...well, sheesh... she 
should keep it to herself...as did steve for all these years... 
*yawn*..

...




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Sat Jan 12 07:36:42 2008
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 07:36:42 -0000
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Fan_fiction_in_general__was:_=09MOVED_from_MAIN_-_"sequels"_to_the_classics?=
In-Reply-To: <fm9edr+gbjb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fm9qma+jdkh@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Tiffany B. Clark"
<minnesotatiffany at ...> wrote:
>
> > Carol responds:
> > 
> > "AU"? In book production, "AU" is how an editor addresses the author
> in a Post-it note attached to the manuscript. How are you using it 
> here?
>  
> > Alla:
> > 
> > I cannot be 100% sure of course, but I am pretty sure :) that Magpie  
> meant Alternate Universe story.
> 
> Tiffany:
> 
> I'm sure Magpie meant Altenate Universe story also because I've read 
> enough sci-fi & fantasy after nabbing SS in '97 to what AU is in those 
> genres.

Geoff:
It's certainly used very regularly in fanfic summaries for that purpose.





From a_svirn at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 12 12:43:16 2008
From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn)
Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 12:43:16 -0000
Subject: MOVED from MAIN - "sequels" to the classics
In-Reply-To: <fm97f9+a9hi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fmacl4+uo39@eGroups.com>

> Carol, who still has grave reservations about fanfic and none
> whatsoever about *good* historical novels

a_svirn:
By "good" you mean those with a right bias? Because you have to admit 
that Shakespeare's history plays are pretty good ? as works of art, 
that is. Richard III is certainly a masterpiece. 




From heidi8 at gmail.com  Sat Jan 12 13:15:39 2008
From: heidi8 at gmail.com (Heidi Tandy)
Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 08:15:39 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: MOVED from MAIN - "sequels" to the classics
In-Reply-To: <fmacl4+uo39@eGroups.com>
References: <fmacl4+uo39@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <1200143743.298A47D0@ff7.dngr.org>


>>  Carol, who still has grave reservations about fanfic and none
>>  whatsoever about *good* historical novels
>
> a_svirn:
> By "good" you mean those with a right bias? Because you have to admit
> that Shakespeare's history plays are pretty good ? as works of art,
> that is. Richard III is certainly a masterpiece.


Which leads to the slightly twisty questions posed by Josephine Tey's 
The Daughters of Time, in which a bedridden London detective 
investigates the destruction of the reputation of Richard III by a 
series of Tudor kings and queens, culminating in Shakespeare's play 
where Richard was nothing but evil.

You could say that the Tey novel is fanfic, and it is fanfic-esque, but 
it really is meta in narrative form. The author has a theory and she 
tells it via a novel.

Heidi


From willsonkmom at msn.com  Sat Jan 12 14:25:04 2008
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 14:25:04 -0000
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Fan_fiction_in_general__was:_=09MOVED_from_MAIN_-_"sequels"_to_the_classics?=
In-Reply-To: <fm9qma+jdkh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fmaik0+mttg@eGroups.com>

 
> > Tiffany:
> > 
> > I'm sure Magpie meant Altenate Universe story also because I've 
read 
> > enough sci-fi & fantasy after nabbing SS in '97 to what AU is in 
those 
> > genres.
> 
> Geoff:
> It's certainly used very regularly in fanfic summaries for that 
purpose.
>

Potioncat:
When I first started reading fanfic, I was very puzzled by so many non-
canon-based stories that were rated AU. I didn't think think they were 
so golden. I learned to avoid the rating all together. Not sure how 
long it was before I learned that fanfic AU had nothing to do with 
Chemistry AU.





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 12 17:19:45 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 17:19:45 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter plagiarism in China
Message-ID: <fmasrh+3j0g@eGroups.com>

In the wake of our discussion of whether fanfic constitutes a
copyright violation and/or plagiarism, I stumbled onto the New York
Times article about Harry Potter knockoffs in China, where book piracy
amounts to an industry: 

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/01/world/asia/01china.html?fta=y

There's a photo of a man reading his unauthorized version of the
seventh book to his son, who couldn't wait for Rowling's version. He
published his version online and is now working on Volume 8 despite
not receiving the Chinese equivalent of a penny for the pirated
versions that other people have printed and sold. (He advertised for a
publisher but didn't find one, but not because of government
regulations protecting the author's rights.) The article ends with an
editor's comment about a Harry Potter "sequel," "Harry Potter and the
Chinese Empire," published by the firm she works for:

"Everything would have been fine if they hadn't made the cover so
obvious, even if you copied some sections of the original story. But
the cover was so outstanding [conspicuous?], and foreign people care a
lot about things like that." 

That is, "foreign people" (Westerners) care about intellectual
property violations. How quaint. It sounds as if the world need some
sort of international copyright law that's both more comprehensive
than merely protecting the book as a whole from unauthorized printings
and translations and enforceable. Rowling's lawyers are trying to work
with law enforcement authorities in China. Good luck to them.

If you can't access the URL, you'll need to subscribe to the NY Times
online (don't worry; it's free) or sign in if you're already a member.

If you still can't access it, go to the NY Times Harry Potter page at 

http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/complete_coverage/harry_potter/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier

and scroll down to "Chinese Market Awash in Potter Books." or go to
the main page, http://www.nytimes.com/ and do a search for Harry
Potter, then follow the link to "NYTimes.com: Complete Coverage: Harry
Potter" (the page with the long URL above). 

There are also links to "Is Dumbledore Gay? Depends on the Definition
of 'Is' and 'Gay'," which those who prefer an asexual Dumbledore or
find a gay Dumbledore uncanonical may find comforting and to "Harry
Potter and the Half-Blood Relative Prince," about one of the Chinese
fake Potter sequels, in which "Harry becomes a blood-lust monster" and
is "finally beaten by his classmates."

Carol, trying to envision the Chinese Braille book called 
"Harry Potter and the Chinese Porcelain Doll" and failing utterly




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 12 17:29:03 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 17:29:03 -0000
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Fan_fiction_in_general__was:_=09MOVED_from_MAIN_-_"sequels"_to_the_classics?=
In-Reply-To: <fm9edr+gbjb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fmatcv+ef1t@eGroups.com>

Carol earlier:
> > 
> > "AU"? In book production, "AU" is how an editor addresses the
author in a Post-it note attached to the manuscript. How are you using
it here?
>  
> > Alla:
> > 
> > I cannot be 100% sure of course, but I am pretty sure :) that
Magpie   meant Alternate Universe story.
> 
> Tiffany:
> 
> I'm sure Magpie meant Altenate Universe story also because I've read
enough sci-fi & fantasy after nabbing SS in '97 to what AU is in those
 genres.
>
Carol responds:

Thanks, both of you. Sometimes, I feel as if I'm wandering in an
alternate universe just reading these posts about fanfic! Which
reminds me, I just arrived at a brilliant insight: I'll bet that the
term "slash" fanfic relates to the slash between the pairings, as in
Sirius/Remus (Sirius-slash-Remus), in which case, Harry/Hermione
(Harry-slash-Hermione) ought to be "slash," too, yet it's merely a
SHIP (relationSHIP, right?) Or am I way off-base here?

Carol, who doesn't plan to read any fanfic but is interested in the
terminology and its derivations




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 12 17:37:35 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 17:37:35 -0000
Subject: Profiteroles?
In-Reply-To: <fm9k9r+6foi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fmatsv+86q8@eGroups.com>

Carol earlier:  
> > > What on earth are profiteroles?

Geoff:
Oh, they're delicious and very more-ish. If you've not had one, you
haven't lived.

Dictionary definition:
"a small ball of choux pastry, filled with cream and covered with
chocolate sauce". They're usually about one and a half inches diameter
and my description would be rather like a mini chocolate eclair.....

My chocoholic self is stirring the thought. Mmmm.
:-)

doddiemoemoe:

> Basically cream puffs....
> 
> In 'American terms'...a cream filled vanity cake that is often 
> drizzled with choco or caramel sauce OR...a cream filled vanity cake 
> that can be "dipped" into choco or Caramel sauce..
>
Carol responds:

Ah! Cream puffs. I haven't had one, or even a real eclair, for a long
time, the closest being a Bavarian-cream-filled, chocolate-frosted
Dunkin' Donut.

But "vanity cake"? "Choux pastry"? I've never heard either term
before. (Quite obviously, I haven't lived all these years. Like Harry
and Voldemort, I've only been surviving. ;-) )

Carol, who's not a chocoholic but nevertheless had a craving for Milky
Ways the other day and bought a whole bag of the miniature ones, which
is now almost gone




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 12 18:14:43 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 18:14:43 -0000
Subject: MOVED from MAIN - "sequels" to the classics
In-Reply-To: <fmacl4+uo39@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fmb02j+atct@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "a_svirn" <a_svirn at ...> wrote:
>
> > Carol, who still has grave reservations about fanfic and none
> > whatsoever about *good* historical novels
> 
> a_svirn:
> By "good" you mean those with a right bias? Because you have to
limit that Shakespeare's history plays are pretty good ? as works of
art, that is. Richard III is certainly a masterpiece.
>
Carol responds:

By "good," I mean well-written and well-researched. I do, of course,
prefer historical fiction with a Ricardian (pro-Richard) or a Yorkist
bias, but I'm not confusing my own preferences with good writing. (I
edit for a living, remember, and I know bad writing and bad editing
and inadequate research when I encounter it.)

As for Shakespeare's "Richard III," I think Paul Murray Kendall summed
it up beautifully: "The forceful moral pattern of [the Tudor historian
Polydore] Vergil, the vividness of [Sir Thomas] More, the fervor of
[Edward] Hall, and the dramatic exuberance of Shakespeare have endowed
the tudor myth with a vitality that is one of the wonders of the
world. What a tribute this is to art; what a misfortune this is for
history" (Paul Murray Kendall, "Richard the Third," New York and
London: Norton, 1956, p. 514).

So the problem is that, as a work of art, Shakespeare's "Richard III"
is *too* good, too memorable, so that many people prefer his
hunchbacked serial murderer with a withered arm to the quiet, pious,
reforming, and undeformed young king who had the misfortune to die
childless (his "natural" son and daughter didn't count in the
succession) and have his name dragged through the mud by a successor
whose claim to the throne of England was neglible. Yes, he made
mistakes, but he was a good man who tried to be a good king, and he
was eloquently mourned by the people of York, who knew him best: "King
Richard, late mercifully reigning upon us, was . . . . piteously slain
and murdered, to the great heaviness of this City" (quoted Kendall,
444 and many other places).

Carol, wondering what the history of England would have been like had
Richard not died before his thirty-third birthday




From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Sat Jan 12 18:32:20 2008
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 18:32:20 -0000
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Fan_fiction_in_general__was:_=09MOVED_from_MAIN_-_"sequels"_to_the_classics?=
In-Reply-To: <fm9056+7vpq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fmb13k+ehvo@eGroups.com>

> > Magpie:
> > I totally understand. I remember somebody who always wrote about 
> > Sirius saying that after he died they said, "Big deal, I'll just 
write 
> > fanfic that's AU!" but then they found they couldn't. 
> > 
> > That's another reason I don't like her constant off-the-cuff 
facts in 
> > interviews. They really can shut doors in your imagination for no 
> > reason.
> 
> Carol responds:
> 
> "AU"? In book production, "AU" is how an editor addresses the author
> in a Post-it note attached to the manuscript. How are you using it 
here?

Magpie:
Sorry--"AU" meaning "alternate universe." Meaning the person would 
just write stories where Sirius hadn't died and pretended it was an 
alternate universe where that didn't happen. There's lots of 
different types of AU stories, some of which just take one event that 
went differently, some make other changes. Comics do alternate 
universe stories a lot.

Carol:
Thanks, both of you. Sometimes, I feel as if I'm wandering in an
alternate universe just reading these posts about fanfic! Which
reminds me, I just arrived at a brilliant insight: I'll bet that the
term "slash" fanfic relates to the slash between the pairings, as in
Sirius/Remus (Sirius-slash-Remus), in which case, Harry/Hermione
(Harry-slash-Hermione) ought to be "slash," too, yet it's merely a
SHIP (relationSHIP, right?) Or am I way off-base here?

Magpie:
That is how the term slash started and I have met a few people who 
try to claim that Harry/Hermione is therefore also slash, but that's 
not how the word is used at all in my experience. Where there are 
some questions is whether slash is always male/male, whether it's 
slash if you're talking about a romantic couple that's already 
canonically single-sex (for instance, Queer as Folk fic) or if it 
would be slash if you took a gay couple and wrote one of them in a 
straight relationship! 

For myself, I use the most common definitions I've always heard: 
slash=male/male pairings of characters who are not canonically stated 
as gay in canon, female/female pairings with the same beginnings is 
femslash. The term used to describe something like Harry/Hermione 
would be het. Iow, it's all ships, but if it's m/m it's slash, if 
it's m/f it's het.

-m





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 12 18:54:13 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 18:54:13 -0000
Subject: MOVED from MAIN - "sequels" to the classics
In-Reply-To: <1200143743.298A47D0@ff7.dngr.org>
Message-ID: <fmb2cl+4ifm@eGroups.com>

Heidi wrote:
> Which leads to the slightly twisty questions posed by Josephine
Tey's The Daughters of Time, in which a bedridden London detective 
investigates the destruction of the reputation of Richard III by a 
series of Tudor kings and queens, culminating in Shakespeare's play
where Richard was nothing but evil.
> 
> You could say that the Tey novel is fanfic, and it is fanfic-esque,
but it really is meta in narrative form. The author has a theory and
she tells it via a novel.
>
Carol responds:

"Daughter of Time" is loads of fun if you like detective fiction
(though I disagree with some of her conclusions), as is "The Murders
of Richard III" by Elizabeth Peters, which is about members of the
Richard III Society who dress as characters, erm, historical figures
related to Richard's life story, and are mysteriously being murdered
in ways that match the version of their deaths in Shakespeare's
"Richard III."

But if you want a depiction of Richard himself as a character in a
novel set in his own time, you need to look elsewhere. I own a number
of Ricardian novels, including "The Broken Sword" by Rhoda Edwards and
"The White Boar" by Marian Palmer. I thought I owned "We Speak No
Treason" by Rosemary Hawley Jarman. I still think that "The Sunne in
Splendour" by Sharon Kay Penman is the best of the lot if you can get
past "we be" and other attempts to make the dialogue resemble
fifteenth-century English. It's certainly the most detailed and
carefully researched of the books listed, including the much earlier
"Daughter of Time." I also own a number of Richard-related books that
either are or purport to be scholarly, including some that are so
venomously anti-Richard that the very lack of objectivity argues
against their case. I was amazed, when I first started researching the
subject after reading Shakespeare's "Richard III" and the related
history plays, wondering how many of Richard's defects and crimes
Shakespeare had exaggerated and knowing that he had placed Richard as
Duke of Gloucester in a battle that took place when he was eight, to
discover that even most of the anti-Richard authors concede that he
wasn't deformed and didn't murder his own wife or the sixteen-year-old
Edward of Lancaster, who died in battle (Richard, who led the vanguard
in the same battle, was seventeen at the time, almost a year to the
day older than the slain Edward).

Anyway, it's all very interesting (to me) and I may well go back to my
earlier obsession with Richard as a substitute or antidote to the loss
of the WW. (Not that I don't still care about the HP books, but
they're no longer as important to me as they were before DH, whereas
Richard's life, character, and motives are an ongoing mystery about
which there's no JKR to have the last word.)

Carol, who let her membership in the RIII Society expire to cut
expenses but still has boxes of their publications that she can't
bring herself to recycle or throw away





From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Sat Jan 12 19:35:34 2008
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 19:35:34 -0000
Subject: Fan fiction in general  was: MOVED from MAIN - "sequels" to the classics
In-Reply-To: <fmaik0+mttg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fmb4q6+5278@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at ...> wrote:
>
>  
> > > Tiffany:
> > > 
> > > I'm sure Magpie meant Altenate Universe story also because I've 
> read 
> > > enough sci-fi & fantasy after nabbing SS in '97 to what AU is in 
> those 
> > > genres.
> > 
> > Geoff:
> > It's certainly used very regularly in fanfic summaries for that 
> purpose.
> >
> 
> Potioncat:
> When I first started reading fanfic, I was very puzzled by so many non-
> canon-based stories that were rated AU. I didn't think think they were 
> so golden. I learned to avoid the rating all together. Not sure how 
> long it was before I learned that fanfic AU had nothing to do with 
> Chemistry AU.

Geoff:
Well. I was always tsught that the 'u' was lower case - Au.
:-)





From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Sat Jan 12 19:44:25 2008
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 19:44:25 -0000
Subject: Profiteroles?
In-Reply-To: <fmatsv+86q8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fmb5ap+n51b@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:
>
> Carol earlier:  
> > > > What on earth are profiteroles?
> 
> Geoff:
> Oh, they're delicious and very more-ish. If you've not had one, you
> haven't lived.
> 
> Dictionary definition:
> "a small ball of choux pastry, filled with cream and covered with
> chocolate sauce". They're usually about one and a half inches diameter
> and my description would be rather like a mini chocolate eclair.....
> 
> My chocoholic self is stirring the thought. Mmmm.
> :-)
> 
> doddiemoemoe:
> 
> > Basically cream puffs....
> > 
> > In 'American terms'...a cream filled vanity cake that is often 
> > drizzled with choco or caramel sauce OR...a cream filled vanity cake 
> > that can be "dipped" into choco or Caramel sauce..
> >
> Carol responds:
> 
> Ah! Cream puffs. I haven't had one, or even a real eclair, for a long
> time, the closest being a Bavarian-cream-filled, chocolate-frosted
> Dunkin' Donut.
> 
> But "vanity cake"? "Choux pastry"? I've never heard either term
> before. (Quite obviously, I haven't lived all these years. Like Harry
> and Voldemort, I've only been surviving. ;-) )
> 
> Carol, who's not a chocoholic but nevertheless had a craving for 
> Milky Ways the other day and bought a whole bag of the miniature 

> ones, which is now almost gone

Geoff:
'Vanity cake' has lost me too but the following might be of interest, 
cribbed from the BBC cookery section (www.bbc.co.uk):
.......
Choux pastry

A very light, double-cooked pastry usually used for sweets and 
buns. It's made with plain flour, salt, butter, eggs, milk and a little 
sugar (if it's being used for a sweet dish). It's used to make profiteroles, 
eclairs and choux puffs and is the basis of the dramatic dessert g?teau 
St Honor? - a shortcrust pastry base topped with a ring of choux pastry, 
then a layer of choux balls filled with whipped cream and glazed with 
caramel - definite wow factor!
........
Chocolate profiteroles
Ingredients
For the choux pastry:
200ml/7fl oz cold water
? tsp caster sugar
85g/3oz unsalted butter
pinch salt
115g/4oz plain flour
4 medium eggs, beaten

For the cream filling:
600ml/1pint double cream
1 tbsp/15g icing sugar

For the chocolate sauce:
15g/?oz butter
4tbsp/60ml water
175g/6oz good quality plain chocolate, broken into pieces

Method
1. Preheat the oven to 200C/400F/Gas 6.
2. To make the pastry, place the butter, water and sugar into a 
large saucepan. 
3. Place over a low heat to melt the butter. Increase the heat 
and shoot in the flour and salt all in one go.
4. Remove from the heat and quickly beat the mixture vigorously 
until a smooth paste is formed, stirring continuously to dry out 
the paste.
5. Once the paste curls away from the side of the pan, transfer 
the mixture into a large bowl and leave to cool for 10-15 minutes.
6. Beat in the eggs, a little at a time, stirring vigorously until the 
paste is smooth and glossy.
7. Continue adding the egg until you have a soft dropping 
consistency. It may not be necessary to add all the egg. The 
mixture will be shiny and smooth and will fall reluctantly from a 
spoon if it is given a sharp jerk.
8. Lightly oil a large baking tray. Dip a teaspoon into some warm 
water and spoon out a teaspoon of the profiterole mixture. Rub 
the top of the mixture with a wet finger and spoon on to the baking 
tray. This ensures a crisper topping.
9. Bake for 25-30 minutes, until golden brown, if too pale they will 
become soggy when cool.
10. Remove from the oven and prick the base of each profiterole. 
Place onto the baking tray with the hole facing upwards and return 
to the oven for 5 minutes. The warm air from the oven helps to dry 
the middle of the profiteroles.
11. Prepare the filling: lightly whip the cream and icing sugar until 
soft peaks form. Do not overwhip. When the profiteroles are cold, 
using a piping bag with a plain nozzle, pipe the cream into the holes 
of the profiteroles. If a piping bag is not available cut the profiteroles 
in half and spoon in the cream with a teaspoon. 
12. Prepare the chocolate sauce: melt the chocolate with the water 
and butter over a pan of boiling water. Stir without boiling until 
smooth and shiny.
13. Arrange the buns on a serving dish and pour over the hot sauce. 
Eat hot or cold.

Have fun.





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 12 20:25:43 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 20:25:43 -0000
Subject: Profiteroles?
In-Reply-To: <fmb5ap+n51b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fmb7o7+g6tc@eGroups.com>

 Geoff:
> 'Vanity cake' has lost me too but the following might be of
interest, cribbed from the BBC cookery section (www.bbc.co.uk):
> .......
> Choux pastry
> 
> A very light, double-cooked pastry usually used for sweets and 
> buns. <snip complicated recipe>
> Have fun.
>
Carol responds:

Thanks, Geoff, but I don't even know what "caster sugar" is, to begin
with. I assume that "icing sugar" is what we Americans call "powdered
sugar" (as opposed to granulated sugar, sugar cubes, brown sugar, or
raw sugar).

I came across a Google image of "failed profiteroles," which is
probably what I would end up with:

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1367/817086095_308be6ad3f.jpg

Carol, whose unwonted (not "unwanted," though it's that, too) craving
for milk chocolate and gooey caramel has been thoroughly sated by the
mini Milky Ways




From alexisnguyen at gmail.com  Sat Jan 12 21:09:51 2008
From: alexisnguyen at gmail.com (P. Alexis Nguyen)
Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 16:09:51 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Profiteroles?
In-Reply-To: <fmb7o7+g6tc@eGroups.com>
References: <fmb5ap+n51b@eGroups.com> <fmb7o7+g6tc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b6e131bf0801121309v441cce0cn921056975b78cf15@mail.gmail.com>

Carol:
>  Thanks, Geoff, but I don't even know what "caster sugar" is, to begin
>  with. I assume that "icing sugar" is what we Americans call "powdered
>  sugar" (as opposed to granulated sugar, sugar cubes, brown sugar, or
>  raw sugar).

Ali:
Caster/castor sugar is fairly similar to a finer granulated sugar. In
a choux recipe, you can use granulated sugar without issues - I've
done it before to no ill effects.

Carol:
>  I came across a Google image of "failed profiteroles," which is
>  probably what I would end up with:
>
>  http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1367/817086095_308be6ad3f.jpg

Ali:
When I was younger (teenager younger), my second go at making choux
pastry resulted in a similar result. Fortunately, though, if you
follow the choux recipe method (which looks the same regardless of
recipe), you can't go wrong, and the one time I did not follow the
method, that was when the choux did not puff. I have faith that you
can follow directions, and the process is otherwise exceedingly
simple.

If you make profiteroles, though, I would recommend it a la Balthazar
(in New York City). The choux is filled with a nice vanilla ice cream.
The chocolate sauce is 8 oz Valrhona chocolate to .5 cup heavy cream.
Or you could make the always impressive, not overly hard,
croquembouche - a tower of little round profiteroles drizzled with
caramel sauce.


>  Carol, whose unwonted (not "unwanted," though it's that, too) craving
>  for milk chocolate and gooey caramel has been thoroughly sated by the
>  mini Milky Ways

Ali:
I never liked Milky Ways until the advent of the dark version. Yum.



From minnesotatiffany at hotmail.com  Sat Jan 12 22:17:09 2008
From: minnesotatiffany at hotmail.com (Tiffany B. Clark)
Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 22:17:09 -0000
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Fan_fiction_in_general__was:_=09MOVED_from_MAIN_-_"sequels"_to_the_classics?=
In-Reply-To: <fmatcv+ef1t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fmbe95+rngv@eGroups.com>

> Carol responds:
> 
> Thanks, both of you. Sometimes, I feel as if I'm wandering in an
alternate universe just reading these posts about fanfic! Which
reminds me, I just arrived at a brilliant insight: I'll bet that the
term "slash" fanfic relates to the slash between the pairings, as in
Sirius/Remus (Sirius-slash-Remus), in which case, Harry/Hermione
(Harry-slash-Hermione) ought to be "slash," too, yet it's merely a
SHIP (relationSHIP, right?) Or am I way off-base here?

Carol, who doesn't plan to read any fanfic but is interested in the
terminology and its derivations

Tiffany:

Some fanfic can seem like it was straight from the alternate universe, 
esp. Bizzaro World in terms of quality & being faithful to the source 
material.  I don't mind a good piece of fanfic & have read more than my 
share of it, but there's a lot of inferior quality material around also.




From n2fgc at arrl.net  Sat Jan 12 22:50:23 2008
From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Lee Storm(God Is The Healing Force))
Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 17:50:23 -0500
Subject: Chocolate Lovers Unite (was Re: Profiteroles?)
In-Reply-To: <b6e131bf0801121309v441cce0cn921056975b78cf15@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000901c8556d$847e11f0$67a4a8c0@FRODO>

[Ali]:
| I never liked Milky Ways until the advent of the dark version. Yum.

[Lee]:
Ah--A Kindred Heart! <Hands over some Honeydukes Best Dark to Ali.> :-)

Given my choice, it's always dark chocolate.  Finding a tasty milk chocolate
is hard, though Ghirardelli isn't bad in a pinch.

But that stuff they call "White Chocolate" tastes like pure wax to me. :-(
It is banned from my house!

Cheers,

Lee :-)
(Trying to think of where to hang the lovely "Leaky Cauldron" sign my
brother got me for Christmas!) :-)





From minnesotatiffany at hotmail.com  Sat Jan 12 23:16:43 2008
From: minnesotatiffany at hotmail.com (Tiffany B. Clark)
Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 23:16:43 -0000
Subject: Chocolate Lovers Unite (was Re: Profiteroles?)
In-Reply-To: <000901c8556d$847e11f0$67a4a8c0@FRODO>
Message-ID: <fmbhor+hegc@eGroups.com>

> [Lee]:
>
> Ah--A Kindred Heart! <Hands over some Honeydukes Best Dark to 
Ali.> :-)
 
Given my choice, it's always dark chocolate.  Finding a tasty milk 
chocolate is hard, though Ghirardelli isn't bad in a pinch.
 
But that stuff they call "White Chocolate" tastes like pure wax to 
me. :-(
It is banned from my house!
 
Cheers,
 
Lee :-)
(Trying to think of where to hang the lovely "Leaky Cauldron" sign my
brother got me for Christmas!) :-)

Tiffany:

For a good chocolate craving at my house, the mousse & cake is to die 
for.  I used to be a waitress prior to landing my current job & their 
chocolate mousse was heavenly.  I prefer a nice mousse myself & have 
rarely been disappointed by a good mousse.




From n2fgc at arrl.net  Sun Jan 13 00:16:10 2008
From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Lee Storm(God Is The Healing Force))
Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 19:16:10 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Chocolate Lovers Unite (was Re: Profiteroles?)
In-Reply-To: <fmbhor+hegc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000a01c85579$7fd94b90$67a4a8c0@FRODO>

[Tiffany]:
| For a good chocolate craving at my house, the mousse & cake is to die 
| for.  I used to be a waitress prior to landing my current job & their 
| chocolate mousse was heavenly.  I prefer a nice mousse myself & have 
| rarely been disappointed by a good mousse.

[Lee]:
The key words are "Good Mousse." :-)  I fell in love with a thick, rich
mousse cake from David Glass,
www.davidglass.com  .
I found it at Trader Joe's.  Most Sinful!  Unfortunately, they're too small!
And they're not always available.  I haven't tried ordering from the site as
it looks more geared to retailers. <BEG>

Cheers,

Lee :-)

Do not walk behind me,    | Lee Storm
I may not care to lead;   | N2FGC
Do not walk before me,    | n2fgc at arrl.net (or)
I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at optonline.net
Walk beside me, and be my friend.





From Schlobin at aol.com  Sun Jan 13 00:19:30 2008
From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176)
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 00:19:30 -0000
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Fan_fiction_in_general__was:_=09MOVED_from_MAIN_-_"sequels"_to_the_classics?=
In-Reply-To: <fm9n0i+d1l7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fmblei+a0p8@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "doddiemoemoe" 
<doddiemoemoe at ...> wrote:
>
> well, massive snip because it doesn't matter...
> 
> The most printed non-authorized HP sequel will be written and 
> published wwwaaayyyy after any of us are still living..JKR's leagal 
> team will prevent anyone from doing otherwise...
> 
> Hence the Lexicon battle....it's not about JKR...it's about JKR's 
> attorneys...
> 
> 
> Years from now...someone could try to publish a fan fic based on 
the 
> lexicon rather than JK works...this is what the court battle will 
be 
> about...WB in the end..prob. simply wants Lexi steve to admonish 
> said readers...which in my opinion..is wrong...
> 
> Sorry....JKR and WB should have complained from the beginning(can 
> you imagine how different, if not difficult JKR's life would have 
> been w/o the lexicon...not to mention the publisher's sites etc...
> 
> However neither did not...and for one reason probably....that 
> certain websites kept up increased their profits..
> 
> I dunno it's stinky to me...
> 
> Because if we believe the media....then steve cannot publish his 
> book before JKR's(what JK legal camp says)....and all Steve was 
> publishing was that big ol' web site that all public has had access 
> to for all these years...I'm sorry but I don't get it.


I thought that the issue is making money. 



for most of the books..which no one ever sued steve for..
> 
> However, given how so many fans hated JKR's epilogue, and what JKR 
> gave us and how much more she has to tell...well, sheesh... she 
> should keep it to herself...as did steve for all these years... 
> *yawn*..
> 
> ...
>

Yes, well, the prevailing wind on Harry Potter for Grownups is that 
the epilogue is awful and that JKR should shut up.

I'm not sure if that's representative of the fan base. 

Susan





From s.hayes at qut.edu.au  Sun Jan 13 01:24:34 2008
From: s.hayes at qut.edu.au (Sharon Hayes)
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 11:24:34 +1000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Chocolate Lovers Unite (was Re: Profiteroles?)
In-Reply-To: <000a01c85579$7fd94b90$67a4a8c0@FRODO>
References: <fmbhor+hegc@eGroups.com>,<000a01c85579$7fd94b90$67a4a8c0@FRODO>
Message-ID: <3EBC8113FA09F449B6CC44C847E510911CDFC6322D@QUTEXMBX02.qut.edu.au>


[Tiffany]:
| For a good chocolate craving at my house, the mousse & cake is to die
| for. I used to be a waitress prior to landing my current job & their
| chocolate mousse was heavenly. I prefer a nice mousse myself & have
| rarely been disappointed by a good mousse.

[Lee]:
The key words are "Good Mousse." :-) I fell in love with a thick, rich
mousse cake from David Glass,
www.davidglass.com .
I found it at Trader Joe's. Most Sinful! Unfortunately, they're too small!
And they're not always available. I haven't tried ordering from the site as
it looks more geared to retailers. <BEG>

Sharon:
We have a recipre for chocolate crackles that is to die for -- guaranteed to satisfy any chocolate craving. Just melt a bag of good quality chocolate chips in the microwave and stir in two tablespoons of peanut butter and two cups of rice bubbles (rice crispies? puffs? Not sure what they're called there.) Drop spoonsful onto a lined tray and set in the fridge. Honestly, you wouldn't believe how yummy they are.



From jnferr at gmail.com  Sun Jan 13 04:10:34 2008
From: jnferr at gmail.com (Janette)
Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 22:10:34 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Profiteroles?
In-Reply-To: <fmb7o7+g6tc@eGroups.com>
References: <fmb5ap+n51b@eGroups.com> <fmb7o7+g6tc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8ee758b40801122010x786da37nb04991c138c2a3d3@mail.gmail.com>

> Carol, whose unwonted (not "unwanted," though it's that, too) craving
> for milk chocolate and gooey caramel has been thoroughly sated by the
> mini Milky Ways


montims:
and just for fun - your Milky Ways are similar to British Mars Bars, while
British Milky Ways are like your 3 musketeers - "the treat you CAN eat
between meals without ruining your appetite"...


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Sun Jan 13 05:28:50 2008
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 05:28:50 -0000
Subject: Hostel II - mild (but tasty) spoilers
Message-ID: <fmc7ii+mods@eGroups.com>

Awww. I was just watching Hostel II and trying to figure out why one of 
the actors looked familiar. It was Viktor Krum! So nice to see Viktor 
Krum!

He gets eaten. Slowly. But go Viktor!




From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Jan 13 06:30:19 2008
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 06:30:19 -0000
Subject: the letter box project / copyrights, intellectual property, literary critici
Message-ID: <fmcb5r+f6fs@eGroups.com>

KathyK zanelupin wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/34885>:

<< I did, once, and I can scarcely believe I did so.  If I were the me
of  today several years ago, I never would have.  My letter was
included in this thing called "The Letter Box" that was sent to JKR. 
The website is no longer functioning and I can't remember many
details, like why or how this idea came about. >>

The letter box project was started by a fan named Alison, I can't
remember her last name, who had a Potterfan website that was fairly
well spoken of at the time altho' I don't recall ever visiting it. Ali
announced the letter box project on HPfGU (and surely many other
places) with the statement that she wanted JKR to know that there are
adults who are Potterfans. I expected that Rowling would never read
the letters, but Ali seemed to be a fine person, deserving my support,
so I wrote a letter for the box. 

The box had a livejournal with photos of the first several post
deliveries it received (photos of a heap of envelopes on the floor)
and one photo included a bright red envelope that got the comment:
"Look out, it  looks like someone sent a Howler". I believe that was
my envelope, bright red and adorned with a collage of Valentine ads.
(My outer envelope, the one addressed to Alison, containing a smaller
envelope containing a note card with my letter written on it.)

<< KathyK, who would now never send fanmail >>

Why not?

Alla wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/34906>:

<< I am moving this from main to talk about the multitude of
sequels to the classics that I had seen in the bookstores as well.
(huge snip) Is that a relatively recent phenomenon ? >>

I suspect it's a rather old phenomenon. For one example, the story
from which California got its name was an [unauthorized] sequel to
another book by a different author. 

Quotes are from Wikipedia: "The name California is most commonly
believed to have derived from a storied paradise peopled by black
Amazons and ruled by Queen Califia. The myth of Califia is recorded in
a 1510 work The Exploits of Esplandian, written as a sequel to Amad?s
de Gaula by Spanish adventure writer Garc?a Ord??ez Rodr?guez de
Montalvo."

"The first known printed edition [Of Amadis de Gaula] was published in
Zaragoza in 1508, by Garci Rodr?guez de Montalvo (or Garci Ord??ez de
Montalvo). It was published in four books in Castilian, but its
origins are unclear: The narrative comes from Portugal, originates in
the late post-Arthurian genre and had certainly been read as early as
the 14th century by the chancellor Pero L?pez de Ayala as well as his
contemporary Pero Ferr?s.

Montalvo himself confesses to have amended the first three volumes,
and to be the author of the fourth. Additionally, in the Portuguese
Chronicle of Gomes Eannes de Azurara (1454), the writing of Amadis is
attributed to Vasco de Lobeira, who was dubbed knight after the battle
of Aljubarrota (1385). However, it seems that in fact the work was a
product of Jo?o de Lobeira, not the troubadour Vasco de Lobeira, and
that rather than originating with him it was the revision of an
earlier work from the beginning of the 14th century.

In his introduction to the text, Garci Rodr?guez de Montalvo explains
that he has edited the first three books of a text in circulation
since the fourteenth century. Montalvo also admits to adding a fourth
as yet unpublished book as well as adding a continuation (Las sergas
de Esplandi?n), which he claims was found in a buried chest in
Constantinople and transported to Spain by a Hungarian merchant (the
famous motif of the found manuscript)."

As another example, when Miguel de Cervantes published the first
volume of Don Quixote, it was such a hit that many sequels were rushed
into print, so when Cervantes published the second volume, it began
with the character denying that he had had the experiences which so
many untrustworthy books had attributed to him. 

After seeing the movie of Baron Munchausen, I got the book from the
public library, and it had a preface explaining the history of the
book, saying that apparently there was a real Baron Munchausen, a man
with a habit of telling tall tales about hunting, which someone else
published, without his consent, as 'The Tales of Baron Munchausen',
which was so successful that it was republished several times, each
time with additional material by various unnamed hacks.

People not only took it upon themselves to write sequels to books that
other people had written, they were eager to attribute books that they
had written to other authors: Montalvo (above) attributing his
Esplandi?n to a manuscript found buried, all the Munchausen writers to
Munchausen, and people whose names are lost to history to Plato and
Aristotle and each of the Apostles including Mary Magdalene.

Alla wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/34909>:

<< The best continuation of the famous story that I had ever read was
the book called "Troy" by Russian author Irina Ismailova. Although
again I am not sure if I loved the book so much due to its merit or
because it changes the famous story development the way I always
wanted it to go ever since I first read "Illiad" as a kid. I should
not call it a continuation, because it is not, it is a retelling of
the Troyan war >>

The Classical Greeks themselves had many different stories of the
Trojan War. The adulation of Homer has not prevented us from finding
vase paintings in which characters labelled with the Homeric names do
something different than in Homer's text. 

Not only the ancients had the notion of a subject matter about which a
lot of different people told a lot of different stories. I've read
that medieval troubadors called that one 'le matiere de Troyes' and
the Arthurian mythos 'le matiere de Bretagne'. That movie a couple of
years ago was NOT a movie of the Iliad, but I had to admit that it was
a legitimate tale of le matiere de Troyes.

P. Alexis Nguyen wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/34918>:

<< I can't recall the basis upon which the Gone With the Wind sequel
was allowed to be published, but needless to say, Mitchell's estate
lost the case. >>

THE WIND DONE GONE, as I understand it more a re-telling, from the
point of view of Mammy's biological daughter, than a sequal. The
Mitchell estate sued it for being an 'unauthorized sequel' but it won
on the ground that it was actually a parody, and parody is specially
stated to be 'fair use'. Without having read it, I gather that it is
actually a commentary rather than a parody, and I kind of think that
commentary is more of a contribution to ongoing thought than is
parody, making it sad that commentary is not protected as fair use.

Carol wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/34937>:

<< What I would *not* do is to stifle discussion or interpretation of
my characters in any way. But literary criticism and fanfic are
opposite reactions to a literary work. One analyzes and interprets
what the author has written, the other strives to expand or recreate
the work. >>

I can imagine that some authors are more offended by some literary
criticism than by almost any fanfic. Literary criticism that analyzes
that a tale has 'fascist values' (I once read an article explaining
that It's A Wonderful Life is a fascist film) or sexual obsessions,
for example. Literary criticism that analyzes that an author has the
same plot in every story even though they pretend to be different.

If Margaret Mitchell were still alive, I imagine she would be more
offended by THE WIND DONE GONE as a commentary on her [alleged] racism
and Scarlett being an idiot than by it being an unauthorized sequel
that might possibly reduce the market for her authorized sequels. 

Carol wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/34988>:

<< That is, "foreign people" (Westerners) care about intellectual
property violations. How quaint. >>

Because intellectual property (other than keeping a trade process your
own by keeping it secret, like the forceps) is a fairly new idea, even
in the West.

Shakespeare took plots from Plutarch and from Girardus Cambrensis, and
IIRC others, and modern intellectual property laws would protect us
from having Shakespeare's play in our universe.






From tonks_op at yahoo.com  Sun Jan 13 08:39:30 2008
From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks)
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 08:39:30 -0000
Subject: Chocolate Lovers Unite (was Re: Profiteroles?)
In-Reply-To: <3EBC8113FA09F449B6CC44C847E510911CDFC6322D@QUTEXMBX02.qut.edu.au>
Message-ID: <fmcio2+u5qe@eGroups.com>

> Sharon:
> We have a recipre for chocolate crackles that is to die for -- 
guaranteed to satisfy any chocolate craving. Just melt a bag of good 
quality chocolate chips in the microwave and stir in two tablespoons 
of peanut butter and two cups of rice bubbles (rice crispies? puffs? 
Not sure what they're called there.) Drop spoonsful onto a lined 
tray and set in the fridge. Honestly, you wouldn't believe how yummy 
they are.
>

Tonks:
Hi, my name is Tonks and I am a chocolateholic. (hello Tonks, 
welcome) ;-)
I don't usually cook, but I do have a good cookie rescipe that you 
can tell yourself is healthy and good for you. The whole thing is 
cooked on the stove, somewhat like what you have said above.

1/2 cup Coco
2 cups sugar
1/2 cup Milk
1 stick butter

mix and cook on stove until a full boil and for about 2 more 
minutes. Like fudge, they say, whatever that means. Then you take it 
off the heat and add 1/2 cup Peanut butter, 1 teaspoon vanilla, and 
3 cups of oatmeal. Drop into onto a cookie sheet or a plate or 
anything flat. let it set up a bit and its done. 

Tonks_op





From willsonkmom at msn.com  Sun Jan 13 16:39:08 2008
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 16:39:08 -0000
Subject: Fan fiction in general  was: MOVED from MAIN - "sequels" to the classics
In-Reply-To: <fmb4q6+5278@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fmderc+qlrf@eGroups.com>

 
> Geoff:
> Well. I was always tsught that the 'u' was lower case - Au.
> :-)
>


Potioncat:
Need I say that I was as good at chemistry as I am at spelling?




From HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com  Sun Jan 13 16:40:20 2008
From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com (HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 13 Jan 2008 16:40:20 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 1/13/2008, 11:00 am 
Message-ID: <1200242420.18.14538.m45@yahoogroups.com>

Reminder from: HPFGU-OTChatter Yahoo! Group
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/cal

Weekly Chat
Sunday January 13, 2008
11:00 am - 12:00 pm
(This event repeats every week.)
Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Notes:
Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour.

To get to the HPfGU room follow this link:
http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want
to be called.

Enter the password: hpfguchat

Click "Join Chat" on the lower right.

Chat start times:
11 am Pacific US
12 noon Mountain US
1 pm Central US
2 pm Eastern US
7 pm UK



All Rights Reserved
 Copyright  2008 
 Yahoo! Inc.
 http://www.yahoo.com

Privacy Policy:
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Terms of Service:
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From HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com  Sun Jan 13 18:40:27 2008
From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com (HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 13 Jan 2008 18:40:27 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 1/13/2008, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1200249627.9.64596.m46@yahoogroups.com>

Reminder from: HPFGU-OTChatter Yahoo! Group
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/cal

Weekly Chat
Sunday January 13, 2008
1:00 pm - 1:00 pm
(This event repeats every week.)
Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Notes:
Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour.

To get to the HPfGU room follow this link:
http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want
to be called.

Enter the password: hpfguchat

Click "Join Chat" on the lower right.

Chat start times:
11 am Pacific US
12 noon Mountain US
1 pm Central US
2 pm Eastern US
7 pm UK




All Rights Reserved
 Copyright  2008 
 Yahoo! Inc.
 http://www.yahoo.com

Privacy Policy:
 http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us

Terms of Service:
 http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sun Jan 13 19:47:53 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 19:47:53 -0000
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Fan_fiction_in_general__was:_=09MOVED_from_MAIN_-_"sequels"_to_the_classics?=
In-Reply-To: <fmblei+a0p8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fmdpt9+70sk@eGroups.com>

Susan wrote:
> Yes, well, the prevailing wind on Harry Potter for Grownups is that 
> the epilogue is awful and that JKR should shut up.
> 
> I'm not sure if that's representative of the fan base. 

Carol responds:

I don't know whether it's representative of the fan base, either, but,
FWIW, the two views don't necessarily go together. I happen to like
the epilogue, especially the Albus Severus moment, and I think it's
great that she resolves some story lines (Snape as probably the
bravest man Harry ever knew, Draco and Harry no longer enemies but not
close friends, Neville teaching Herbology at Hogwarts) while leaving
many other questions unanswered and the interpretation to the reader.
But I think her post-DH comments undo much of the good of that
open-ended epilogue.

Carol, pretty sure that for most of us, the epilogue and the
interviews are two separate matters





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sun Jan 13 19:59:05 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 19:59:05 -0000
Subject: Profiteroles?
In-Reply-To: <8ee758b40801122010x786da37nb04991c138c2a3d3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <fmdqi9+p04p@eGroups.com>

> > Carol, whose unwonted (not "unwanted," though it's that, too)
craving for milk chocolate and gooey caramel has been thoroughly sated
by the mini Milky Ways
> 
> 
> montims:
> and just for fun - your Milky Ways are similar to British Mars Bars,
while British Milky Ways are like your 3 musketeers - "the treat you
CAN eat between meals without ruining your appetite"...

Carol again:
Thanks, montims. That's an interesting bit of trivia; I wondered what
Mars Bars were (other than candy bars whose manufacturer is obvious).
I'm sure they appreciated the free publicity in "Philosopher's Stone"!

That slogan for your Three-Musketeers-like Milky Ways reminds me of
"There's always room for Jell-o."

Carol, whose candy cravings are usually for licorice (Good-n-Plenty,
not the leathery stick licorice) or Jolly Rancher gummies (sour but
sugar-coated like gum drops), almost never for chocolate, which makes
her complexion think she's a teenager




From minnesotatiffany at hotmail.com  Sun Jan 13 20:06:08 2008
From: minnesotatiffany at hotmail.com (Tiffany B. Clark)
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 20:06:08 -0000
Subject: Fan fiction in general  was: MOVED from MAIN - "sequels" to the classics
In-Reply-To: <fmderc+qlrf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fmdqvg+qalg@eGroups.com>

> Geoff: 
>
> Well. I was always tsught that the 'u' was lower case - Au.
> :-)
>
> 
> Potioncat:
> Need I say that I was as good at chemistry as I am at spelling?

Tiffany:

I did real good in chemistry & biology in high school & are taking 
advanced courses in both of those this term, as well as 2 business 
classes.




From n2fgc at arrl.net  Sun Jan 13 20:14:14 2008
From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Lee Storm(God Is The Healing Force))
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 15:14:14 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Profiteroles?
In-Reply-To: <fmdqi9+p04p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <001a01c85620$de0c4f30$67a4a8c0@FRODO>

| > montims:
| > and just for fun - your Milky Ways are similar to British Mars Bars,
| while British Milky Ways are like your 3 musketeers - "the treat you
| CAN eat between meals without ruining your appetite"...
| 
| Carol again:
| Thanks, montims. That's an interesting bit of trivia; I wondered what
| Mars Bars were (other than candy bars whose manufacturer is obvious).
| I'm sure they appreciated the free publicity in "Philosopher's Stone"!

[Lee]:
And, if I remember correctly, the Mars Bars of the UK are *not* the Mars
Bars of the US; the manufacturers are different.  Isn't the UK Mars from
Cadbury or something, while the American Mars is the manufacturer of Milky
Way and other well-known yummies?

Cheers,

Lee :-)

Do not walk behind me,    | Lee Storm
I may not care to lead;   | N2FGC
Do not walk before me,    | n2fgc at arrl.net (or)
I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at optonline.net
Walk beside me, and be my friend.





From annemehr at yahoo.com  Sun Jan 13 20:29:05 2008
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (Annemehr)
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 20:29:05 -0000
Subject: the letter box project / copyrights, intellectual property, literary critici
In-Reply-To: <fmcb5r+f6fs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fmdsah+8f6c@eGroups.com>

Catlady wrote:
 
> The letter box project was started by a fan named Alison, I can't
> remember her last name, who had a Potterfan website that was fairly
> well spoken of at the time altho' I don't recall ever visiting it.

Annemehr:

Her screen name was Ali Wildgoose, as I recall (don't know if that 
was her actual last name or not).


Catlady wrote:
<lots of fascinating information re very early "fanfic" which I 
snipped>

Annemehr:

It happens in poetry, too -- poets often answer each other.  I have a 
sweet little book called _Conversation Pieces; poems that talk to 
other poems_ compiled by Kurt Brown and Harold Schechter, which is an 
anthology of such calls and responses.  The cascade of reactions to 
Marlowe's passionate shepherd is particularly noteworthy:

Christopher Marlowe: The Passionate Shepherd to His Love
Sir Walter Raleigh: The Nymph's Reply to the Shepherd
John Donne: The Bait
Cecil Day Lewis: Song
William Carlos Williams: Raleigh Was Right
Ogden Nash: Love Under the Republicans (or Democrats)
W.D. Snodgrass: Invitation
Douglas Crase: Covenant
Greg Delanty: Williams Was Wrong

I just happened to stumble upon this book in Borders one day and 
couldn't leave without it. 

Annemehr





From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Sun Jan 13 20:44:51 2008
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 20:44:51 -0000
Subject: Fan fiction in general  was: MOVED from MAIN - "sequels" to the classics
In-Reply-To: <fmderc+qlrf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fmdt83+6ulp@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at ...> wrote:
>
>  
> > Geoff:
> > Well. I was always tsught that the 'u' was lower case - Au.
> > :-)
> >
> 
> 
> Potioncat:
> Need I say that I was as good at chemistry as I am at spelling?

Geoff:
Oh, stocking tops!

What always gets up my nose is the fact that there is a little gremlin 
living in my computer who reveals an error two seconds after 
you hit the Send button.....

I proof read and proof read... and he still gets his oar in.
:-(

Do any of you out there have a cousin of his resident in your CPU?





From annemehr at yahoo.com  Sun Jan 13 20:52:12 2008
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (Annemehr)
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 20:52:12 -0000
Subject: Fan fiction in general  was: MOVED from MAIN - "sequels" to the classics
In-Reply-To: <fmdt83+6ulp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fmdtls+sk73@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" 
<gbannister10 at ...> wrote:
>
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom@> 
wrote:
> >
> >  
> > > Geoff:
> > > Well. I was always tsught that the 'u' was lower case - Au.
> > > :-)
> > >
> > 
> > 
> > Potioncat:
> > Need I say that I was as good at chemistry as I am at spelling?
> 
> Geoff:
> Oh, stocking tops!
> 
> What always gets up my nose is the fact that there is a little 
gremlin 
> living in my computer who reveals an error two seconds after 
> you hit the Send button.....
> 
> I proof read and proof read... and he still gets his oar in.
> :-(
> 
> Do any of you out there have a cousin of his resident in your CPU?
>

Annemehr:

OH, yeah!  One thing that helps is to copy and paste your response 
into a different format.  For my longer posts, I'll paste a copy into 
Notepad and proofread it there.  The change in font, etc., helps the 
typos stand out better (because it seems in your original, your 
brain "sees" what it meant to write instead of what's actually on the 
screen).

Pasting a copy in Notepad is also handy for those times when you're 
composing in webview and then for some reason Yahoo or Windows (those 
devils!) lose your work. ;)

'Course, for short stuff like this, I just fire away and hope for the 
best!




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Sun Jan 13 21:05:36 2008
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 21:05:36 -0000
Subject: Profiteroles?
In-Reply-To: <001a01c85620$de0c4f30$67a4a8c0@FRODO>
Message-ID: <fmduf0+28tb@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Lee Storm(God Is The Healing Force)" 
<n2fgc at ...> wrote:
>
> | > montims:
> | > and just for fun - your Milky Ways are similar to British Mars Bars,
> | while British Milky Ways are like your 3 musketeers - "the treat you
> | CAN eat between meals without ruining your appetite"...
> | 
> | Carol again:
> | Thanks, montims. That's an interesting bit of trivia; I wondered what
> | Mars Bars were (other than candy bars whose manufacturer is obvious).
> | I'm sure they appreciated the free publicity in "Philosopher's Stone"!
> 
> [Lee]:
> And, if I remember correctly, the Mars Bars of the UK are *not* the Mars
> Bars of the US; the manufacturers are different.  Isn't the UK Mars from
> Cadbury or something, while the American Mars is the manufacturer of Milky
> Way and other well-known yummies?

Geoff:
Mars used to get chocolate from Cadburys in their early days but has never 
been part of that group. They are currently Master Foods (MArs UK Ltd.).

If you visit www.chocablog.com/reviews/mars-bar/ there's a short history 
and a YouTube link to a 1986 commercial with the famous "A Mars a day 
helps you work rest and play" slogan. Which, to a UK resident is sheer 
nostalgia,,,,




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sun Jan 13 21:12:57 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 21:12:57 -0000
Subject: the letter box project / copyrights, intellectual property, literary critici
In-Reply-To: <fmcb5r+f6fs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fmdusp+82ru@eGroups.com>


Catlady wrote:
> THE WIND DONE GONE, as I understand it more a re-telling, from the
> point of view of Mammy's biological daughter, than a sequal. The
> Mitchell estate sued it for being an 'unauthorized sequel' but it won
> on the ground that it was actually a parody, and parody is specially
> stated to be 'fair use'. Without having read it, I gather that it is
> actually a commentary rather than a parody, and I kind of think that
> commentary is more of a contribution to ongoing thought than is
> parody, making it sad that commentary is not protected as fair use.
> 
Carol responds:

Commentary, fortunately, *is* protected by fair use, or literary
critics and reviewers would be out of business.

Here's a quote from a U.S. government website on the fair use doctrine
(which I think we would all do well to familiarize ourselves with,
whether we're editors, contributors to book discussion websites, or
would-be literary critics:

"[Section] 107. Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use

"Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use
of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or
phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for
purposes such as *criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching
(including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or
research,* is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether
the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the
factors to be considered shall include ? 

"(1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use
is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;

"(2) the nature of the copyrighted work;

"(3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to
the copyrighted work as a whole; and

"(4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of
the copyrighted work.

"The fact that a work is unpublished shall not itself bar a finding of
fair use if such finding is made upon consideration of all the above
factors."

http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html#107

Carol earlier:

> << What I would *not* do is to stifle discussion or interpretation
of my characters in any way. But literary criticism and fanfic are
opposite reactions to a literary work. One analyzes and interprets
what the author has written, the other strives to expand or recreate
the work. >>
> 
Catlady responded:
> I can imagine that some authors are more offended by some literary
criticism than by almost any fanfic. Literary criticism that analyzes
that a tale has 'fascist values' (I once read an article explaining
that It's A Wonderful Life is a fascist film) or sexual obsessions,
for example. Literary criticism that analyzes that an author has the
same plot in every story even though they pretend to be different.
> 
> If Margaret Mitchell were still alive, I imagine she would be more
offended by THE WIND DONE GONE as a commentary on her [alleged] racism
and Scarlett being an idiot than by it being an unauthorized sequel
that might possibly reduce the market for her authorized sequels. 
> 
Carol again:

Offended or not, an author can't deny literary critics the right to
comment on or analyze their works; criticism (in the sense of
critiquing a work, not necessarily "criticizing" in the snese of
finding fault though that's not prohibited) is protected by fair use. 
By literary critics, I mean professional writers who analyze literary
works for a living, interpreting the characters, symbols, setting,
plot, etc., to explore the meaning and significance of a work). For
example, a critic might analyze the use of classical mythology in the
HP books in relation to a particular theme (Harry's descent into the
underworld in various books, for example). Scholarly research for,
say, a dissertation, or even a middle-school student's research paper
(so long as it doesn't plagiarize) is protected, too.

I haven't read "the Wind Done Gone," so I have no idea whether it
violates copyright (assuming that "Gone with the Wind" is not yet in
the public domain) or plagiarizes the original work, nor whether it
qualifies as a parody and is therefore protected, but if it were a
straightforward literary analysis quoting portions of the original
novel to support its argument, it would be allowed.

I'll grant you that some literary critics are out-and-out kooks, and a
number of postmodern critics attempt to impose a political agenda,
such as Marxism or feminism, on a literary work, and judge it by
whether it succeeds or fails in depicting values that the critic
approves of or criticizing values that the critic disapproves of. I
don't know about professional critics, but I've certainly seen posters
on HPfGu taking a similar approach. (Anyone remember the flak over
Alice Longbottom being merely "the Auror Frank Longbottom's wife" in
GoF and the, erm, magical transformation of Alice into an Auror
herself in OoP?)

Regardless of the agenda or school of thought, even (IMO) idiotic
attacks on Mark Twain for "racism" in "Huckleberry Finn," literary
criticism is "fair use," which is probably why the book by Orson Scott
Card and another author presenting conflicting analyses of Snape was
permitted (not to mention that Borders Books was capitalizing on the
Great Snape Debate in its advertising campaign to publicize DH) while
the Lexicon, which is primarily a compendium of "facts" about the WW
rather than an analysis of the books, is not. (I do think that Steve's
lawyers will study the fair use doctrine and find an out, but I've
been wrong, oh, so wrong, before).

catlady: 
> Shakespeare took plots from Plutarch and from Girardus Cambrensis,
and IIRC others, and modern intellectual property laws would protect
us from having Shakespeare's play in our universe.
>
Carol:
Well, yes and no. Shakespeare, like Chaucer before him, did use a
variety of source materials rather than inventing his plots and
characters from scratch, but his treatment of them was highly original
and most of his materials were available to him in something like what
we today call the public domain. Plutarch was long dead, as was
Girardus, and even the sources for Shakespeare's history plays were in
no position to complain about his use of their source materials, Sir
Thomas More, for example, having died in 1535. Granted, a contemporary
of Shakespeare's, Robert Greene, supposedly complained that "there is
an Upstart Crow, beautified with our feathers, that with his Tygers
hart wrapt in a Players hyde . . . is in his owne conceit the onely
Shake-scene in a countrey." 

http://www.sourcetext.com/sourcebook/library/bowen/24purloined.htm

IOW, Greene accused Shakespeare of stealing lines from his plays, but
I'll leave that question to the Shakespeare experts.

Carol, for whom Shakespeare's treatment of historical figures is much
more troubling than, say, his adapting of the old Pyramus and Thisbe
story into "Romeo and Juliet"




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sun Jan 13 21:16:07 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 21:16:07 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 1/13/2008, 1:00 pm
In-Reply-To: <1200249627.9.64596.m46@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <fmdv2n+njk5@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com,
HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com wrote:
>
> Reminder from: HPFGU-OTChatter Yahoo! Group
>  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/cal
> 
> Weekly Chat
> Sunday January 13, 2008
> 1:00 pm - 1:00 pm
> (This event repeats every week.)
> Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574
<snip>

Carol:
Okay, I know I look like an idiot for responding to a chat
announcement, but can someone tell me why this announcement always
appears twice on OT chatter and only once on the other lists? It's
been bugging me for a long time.

Carol, who should expend her energy worrying about more important matters




From minnesotatiffany at hotmail.com  Sun Jan 13 21:21:53 2008
From: minnesotatiffany at hotmail.com (Tiffany B. Clark)
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 21:21:53 -0000
Subject: Fan fiction in general  was: MOVED from MAIN - "sequels" to the classics
In-Reply-To: <fmdtls+sk73@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fmdvdh+kh5c@eGroups.com>

> Annemehr:
> 
> OH, yeah!  One thing that helps is to copy and paste your response 
into a different format.  For my longer posts, I'll paste a copy into 
Notepad and proofread it there.  The change in font, etc., helps the 
typos stand out better (because it seems in your original, your 
brain "sees" what it meant to write instead of what's actually on the 
screen).
 
Pasting a copy in Notepad is also handy for those times when you're 
composing in webview and then for some reason Yahoo or Windows (those 
devils!) lose your work. ;)

'Course, for short stuff like this, I just fire away and hope for the 
best!

Tiffany:

I always copy & paste my posts into Word before submitting them, esp. 
on the main list.  I've had a few typos & grammar errors to slip 
through unnoticed, but I'm not a stickler for details typically.  I 
am orderly by nature, so if it's a real obvious error, I'll pick up 
on it right away.

It's not always easy for me to remember to do it though because most 
of my free time is spent away from home with others & on a laptop, so 
if I'm pressed for time or got my mind on something else, I'll let 
the copy & paste into Word part slide & hope no one notices it.  My 
first thread to the main list was submitted when I was both eating 
supper & studying for an exam that I had in 20 minutes, for example.




From n2fgc at arrl.net  Sun Jan 13 21:34:48 2008
From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Lee Storm(God Is The Healing Force))
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 16:34:48 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Profiteroles?
In-Reply-To: <fmduf0+28tb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <002101c8562c$219e2060$67a4a8c0@FRODO>

| Geoff:
| Mars used to get chocolate from Cadburys in their early days 
| but has never 
| been part of that group. They are currently Master Foods 
| (MArs UK Ltd.).
| 
| If you visit www.chocablog.com/reviews/mars-bar/ there's a 
| short history 
| and a YouTube link to a 1986 commercial with the famous "A Mars a day 
| helps you work rest and play" slogan. Which, to a UK resident 
| is sheer 
| nostalgia,,,,

[Lee]:
I love it! :-)

Now, isn't it also true that the real English Cadbury is not the same as the
US attempt?  The UK Cadbury Dark is exquisite!  The US version is good, but
not quite as good as the UK version.

I say that because a friend of mine brought me a Cadbury Dark from England
which was a supreme effort for her. <BEG>  I'm amazed it didn't get eaten
before it reached my hands.  (Of course, if it had been eaten, I would have
had to torture her.) :-)

Cheers,

Lee :-)

Do not walk behind me,    | Lee Storm
I may not care to lead;   | N2FGC
Do not walk before me,    | n2fgc at arrl.net (or)
I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at optonline.net
Walk beside me, and be my friend.





From minnesotatiffany at hotmail.com  Sun Jan 13 21:40:03 2008
From: minnesotatiffany at hotmail.com (Tiffany B. Clark)
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 21:40:03 -0000
Subject: Profiteroles?
In-Reply-To: <002101c8562c$219e2060$67a4a8c0@FRODO>
Message-ID: <fme0fj+k6lk@eGroups.com>

> [Lee]:
>
> I love it! :-)
 
Now, isn't it also true that the real English Cadbury is not the same 
as the US attempt?  The UK Cadbury Dark is exquisite!  The US version 
is good, but not quite as good as the UK version.
 
I say that because a friend of mine brought me a Cadbury Dark from 
England which was a supreme effort for her. <BEG>  I'm amazed it 
didn't get eaten before it reached my hands.  (Of course, if it had 
been eaten, I would have had to torture her.) :-)

Cheers,

Lee :-)
 
Tiffany:

I went to Germany in 2005 & the chocolate candy over there is to die 
for, esp. if you like either cocoa or dark chocolate.  I brought home 
3 boxes of chocolates I purchased there & all of their dark chocolate 
was almost like it divinely inspired.  The cocoa they use is real 
good, esp. for hot chocolates & I live near Minneapolis where nothing 
is better than a nice cup of that in the winter.




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sun Jan 13 21:40:36 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 21:40:36 -0000
Subject: Fan fiction in general  was: MOVED from MAIN - "sequels" to the classics
In-Reply-To: <fmdt83+6ulp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fme0gk+s4tu@eGroups.com>

Geoff:
> Oh, stocking tops!
> 
> What always gets up my nose is the fact that there is a little
gremlin living in my computer who reveals an error two seconds after
you hit the Send button.....
> 
> I proof read and proof read... and he still gets his oar in.
> :-(
> 
> Do any of you out there have a cousin of his resident in your CPU?
>
Carol responds:

I certainly do, and it's particularly irritating to me to spot my
errors hurling through cyberspace, shaking their little gremlin fists
at me and laughing as I helplessly wait for them to expose themselves
onlist, since I edit for a living and ought to catch all such errors.
(Just today, I typed "Barty Crouch Sr." meaning "Jr." on the Movie
List, where I made myself feel better by correcting the error before
anyone else did.)

My personal gremlin likes to switch the names of characters. He's been
known to call Dumbledore "Voldemort" and Harry "Snape," rather like
calling Churchill "Hitler" (not that Snape is evil, but Harry thought
he was for the longest time). He (the gremlin, not Harry) is also
extremely good at replacing names with vague pronouns that seem to
refer to the wrong person and long, tangled sentences that made
perfect sense to me as I typed them but somehow became ungrammatical
along the way (surely garbled by that mischievous gremlin). I'm not
sure where he hides them, but I'm pretty sure that my gremlin has a
huge collection of end-parentheses [)] to match the many open
parentheses [(] in my posts. You know, he makes it look like I forget
to close up my own parenthetical statements. 

I hereby certify that I have proofread this post. Any typos or errors
of logic or expression are the responsibility of the gremlin. :-p!!!

Carol, who loves the expression "Oh, stocking tops!" and wonders
whether it's Geoff's own invention




From n2fgc at arrl.net  Sun Jan 13 22:12:33 2008
From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Lee Storm(God Is The Healing Force))
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 17:12:33 -0500
Subject: Chocolate Search (was Re: Profiteroles?
In-Reply-To: <fme0fj+k6lk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <002201c85631$6587bd40$67a4a8c0@FRODO>

| Tiffany:
| I went to Germany in 2005 & the chocolate candy over there is to die 
| for, esp. if you like either cocoa or dark chocolate.  I brought home 
| 3 boxes of chocolates I purchased there & all of their dark chocolate 
| was almost like it divinely inspired.

[Lee]: <Throwing up her hands in despair>:
Now...you see????  She had to go to Germany for good chocolate!  Please,
someone, tell me where I can find some good, reasonably priced, US-made Dark
Chocolate?

When I have a real desperation, I'll eat a bag of Nestles Tollhouse Morsels.
I do like the dark Doves (when I can get them) and York Peppermint Patties.
I have been, lately, most under-whelmed with what Hershey purports to be
Dark Chocolate; it tastes like flavorless wax, IMO.

So, anyone who knows some good US-made dark chocolate, let me know so I
don't have to keep ordering on line or getting chocolate from other lands or
spending our whole pension check on good stuff. :-)

Cheers,

Lee (aka Lady_Chocolee)

Do not walk behind me,    | Lee Storm
I may not care to lead;   | N2FGC
Do not walk before me,    | n2fgc at arrl.net (or)
I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at optonline.net
Walk beside me, and be my friend.





From jenn at phynn-phamily.us  Sun Jan 13 22:30:18 2008
From: jenn at phynn-phamily.us (Jennifer D. Phynn)
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 17:30:18 -0500
Subject: Profiteroles?
Message-ID: <2CE8B1B6-4FDF-44B0-8653-861E1D72508F@phynn-phamily.us>

Profiteroles are tiny puff pastries filled with either ice cream or  
pastry cream (think incredible extra thick vanilla pudding) .
If made in a tree form and stuck together with caramel,  they are a  
wonderful Christmas treat called- well, I can't spell it,  but it  
means something like "crackle tree" in German.
I'm getting hungry just thinking about it!  (though that could be the  
lo-carb diet talking...)

Poppy/Jenn, who helped a lover through 4 years of pastry arts school  
and has the extra weight to prove it.



From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Jan 13 22:49:22 2008
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 22:49:22 -0000
Subject: the letter box project / copyrights, intellectual property, literary critici
In-Reply-To: <fmdusp+82ru@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fme4hi+et6h@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:

> I haven't read "the Wind Done Gone," so I have no idea whether it
> violates copyright (assuming that "Gone with the Wind" is not yet in
> the public domain) or plagiarizes the original work, nor whether it
> qualifies as a parody and is therefore protected, but if it were a
> straightforward literary analysis quoting portions of the original
> novel to support its argument, it would be allowed.

Most important to me: Privileging commentary done in the form of a
legal brief or a series of syllogisms over commentary done by telling
a story is -- I want to call it 'cultural imperialism', but some will
complain that the term doesn't apply because both are in our same
culture, so I'll settle for 'arbitrary and tyrannical'. 

Because it is certainly in our culture to tell stories like The Boy
Who Cried Wolf instead of lecturing children on how to gradually
eliminate the response to a conditioned stimulus by presenting the
stimulus without the expected reward, and for adults to make their
point better by saying "he's just crying wolf" instead of "He said
so-and-so on such a date and he was wrong. He said this other thing on
this other date and he was wrong. He said ... He said ... He said ...
He has an established history of being wrong about everything. So he's
wrong about this, too."

Less important to me: I haven't read it either, but "Gone With the
Wind" must still be under copyright or there wouldn't have been a
lawsuit. From news coverage of the lawsuit, I gathered that "The Wind
Done Gone" is another novel with many of the same characters and some
same events. The estate accused it of being an 'unauthorized sequel',
which seems to me to be entirely a legal matter, having nothing to do
with the academic impropriety called 'plagiarism', because both the
authorized sequel and the unauthorized sequel make no secret (both
brag of it) of being based on Margaret Mitchell's "Gone With the Wind"
-- no one is taking away Mitchell's credit for having made up her
story and her characters first. If any chunks of text were ctrl-C'ed
from Mitchell's text and ctrl-P'ed into the sequels without a
footnote, the authorized and unauthorized sequels would be equally
guilty of the academic meaning of plagiarism. (At least, I don't
remember Honor Code saying anything about getting the permission of
the copyright holder makes it okay not to footnote.)

The hired writer of the authorized sequel (I don't remember her name)
 was interviewed during the news event and asserted, I suppose quite
sincerely, that a writer's characters are her babies and she remains
attached to them forever and for someone else to make them do things
is a like (the someone else) is raping her babies, so Mitchell was
surely rolling over in her grave. She (the hired writer) was quite
certain that what she had written was okay with Mitchell because she
was so respectful of loving the characters as much as Mitchell did.
Her argument was based entirely on how the author felt about it, while
the estate's argument was that for people to have a choice of which
GWTW sequel to buy would take away sales and profits rightfully
belonging to the authorized one. The hired writer's argument about the
author rolling over in her grave would apply just as much to negative
commentary that didn't take the form of a story. The estates's
argument has nothing to do with academic integrity.





From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Sun Jan 13 23:13:18 2008
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 23:13:18 -0000
Subject: Fan fiction in general  was: MOVED from MAIN - "sequels" to the classics
In-Reply-To: <fmdvdh+kh5c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fme5ue+5l89@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Tiffany B. Clark" <minnesotatiffany at ...> 
wrote:
>
> > Annemehr:
> > 
> > OH, yeah!  One thing that helps is to copy and paste your response 
> into a different format.  For my longer posts, I'll paste a copy into 
> Notepad and proofread it there.  The change in font, etc., helps the 
> typos stand out better (because it seems in your original, your 
> brain "sees" what it meant to write instead of what's actually on the 
> screen).
>  
> Pasting a copy in Notepad is also handy for those times when you're 
> composing in webview and then for some reason Yahoo or Windows (those 
> devils!) lose your work. ;)
> 
> 'Course, for short stuff like this, I just fire away and hope for the 
> best!
> 
> Tiffany:
> 
> I always copy & paste my posts into Word before submitting them, esp. 
> on the main list.  I've had a few typos & grammar errors to slip 
> through unnoticed, but I'm not a stickler for details typically.  I 
> am orderly by nature, so if it's a real obvious error, I'll pick up 
> on it right away.

Geoff:
Like you, if I am writing a long post, I set it up in Word for Mac and 
then cut and paste into the Yahoo window. I do that more as a precaution; I'v lost a few 
long posts in the past typing it in the main reply window.

My main problem with errors is TFS (Tangle Finger Syndrome).
:-(





From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Sun Jan 13 23:19:33 2008
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 23:19:33 -0000
Subject: Fan fiction in general  was: MOVED from MAIN - "sequels" to the classics
In-Reply-To: <fme0gk+s4tu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fme6a5+oo8q@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:
ol responds:


Carol: 

> who loves the expression "Oh, stocking tops!" and wonders
> whether it's Geoff's own invention

Geoff:
I think I did pinch it from somebody else but I used to use it in 
the classroom as one of those comments which 'sir' used to 
defuse a heated situation; the pupils couldn't rerally get angry
over that. Another was to say to somebody being either stupid 
or confrontational "Do stop being a silly prune!" That almost 
always made growls turn into chuckles....

Some of my old pupils with whom I am still in contact, remind 
me of these little gems from time to time.




From gav_fiji at yahoo.com  Mon Jan 14 00:40:38 2008
From: gav_fiji at yahoo.com (Goddlefrood)
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 00:40:38 -0000
Subject: MOVED from MAIN - "sequels" to the classics
In-Reply-To: <fm8gtv+r2r0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fmeb26+t496@eGroups.com>

> Alla:
> Beware it has spoilers though, but if you start reading it will 
> give you the general overview only and then table of contexts 
> will give you novels in chronological order. After the table 
> they give rather detailed overview of plot.

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vorkosigan_Saga

Goddlefrood:

Or try:

http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/b/lois-mcmaster-bujold/

This has the series in order and by clicking on any individual 
title (the first being Ethan of Athos) one can find a brief 
synopsis.





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon Jan 14 01:33:30 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 01:33:30 -0000
Subject: MOVED from MAIN - "sequels" to the classics
In-Reply-To: <fmeb26+t496@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fmee5a+10440@eGroups.com>

Goddlefrood:
> 
> Or try:
> 
> http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/b/lois-mcmaster-bujold/
> 
> This has the series in order and by clicking on any individual 
> title (the first being Ethan of Athos) one can find a brief 
> synopsis.
>
Carol responds:

Thanks very much. I've bookmarked the page and will come back to it
when I have the time to explore it.

Carol, considering checking out the books from a library if she likes
them rather than spending a fortune on so many sequels




From kempermentor at yahoo.com  Mon Jan 14 01:55:26 2008
From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kemper mentor)
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 17:55:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Chocolate Search (was Re: Profiteroles?
Message-ID: <683376.68048.qm@web90409.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


[Lee]: <Throwing up her hands in despair>:

 Now...you see????  She had to go to Germany for good chocolate!  Please,

 someone, tell me where I can find some good, reasonably priced, US-made Dark

 Chocolate?

 
...
So, anyone who knows some good US-made dark chocolate, let me know so I

 don't have to keep ordering on line or getting chocolate from other lands or

 spending our whole pension check on good stuff. :-)


Kemper now:
Hi Lee!
I do not know what you consider to be reasonably priced, but my favorite chocolate is from the greatest US city, Portland, OR: Moonstruck Chocolate.

They also have nice truffles, but I'm all about the chocolate bars: specifically their Chile Variado.
But their Dark Chocolate is quite smooth and tasty.  Each chocolate bar (sans the organic) is $3 and well worth it. 

Here's a link:
http://www.moonstruckchocolate.com/Catalog_Product.aspx?catid=2&prodid=491

To quote Greyback, "Delicious, delicious."

Kemper


 






      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Looking for last minute shopping deals?  
Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.  http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping



From alexisnguyen at gmail.com  Mon Jan 14 02:33:09 2008
From: alexisnguyen at gmail.com (P. Alexis Nguyen)
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 21:33:09 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Chocolate Search (was Re: Profiteroles?
In-Reply-To: <002201c85631$6587bd40$67a4a8c0@FRODO>
References: <fme0fj+k6lk@eGroups.com> <002201c85631$6587bd40$67a4a8c0@FRODO>
Message-ID: <b6e131bf0801131833h49c45d18ybc77f9a7171d8275@mail.gmail.com>

Lee
>  Now...you see???? She had to go to Germany for good chocolate! Please,
>  someone, tell me where I can find some good, reasonably priced, US-made
> Dark
>  Chocolate?

I don't know where you're based, so I don't know if these suggestions
will be feasible. At the minimum, though, I should note that I've
never found a good, inexpensive dark chocolate bar - I've had very
good bars where the price-quality ratio is exceptional, but that
doesn't really mean inexpensive since these run anywhere from $3-7 per
bar.

That said, Vosges has boutiques in many large cities across the US,
and their chocolates are available online - while the chocolate is
very good here, the standouts are the flavoured bars, which is
everything from matcha to bacon to acai berries.  Valrhona, the
chocolates that Balthazar uses in their chocolate sauces [served with
profiteroles], is available fairly widely, as far as I can tell - I've
found in many places including Trader Joe's and gourmet grocery
stores, but the selections are usually limited to the standard 56% and
76%. Jacques Torres, the famous chocolatier has good chocolates, and
if you're in the Williamsburg store in NYC, conching happens there,
which can be a fun thing to watch if you're really into chocolates.
If you want a good US company, my favourite option is Scharfenberger,
based out of CA - I've seen in occasionally in places like Trader
Joe's or even the local market, but this stuff is available online.
(All that being said, Hershey's is putting out a specialty line that
isn't half bad and will do in a pinch, and I've seen this in even
Midwest cities. Moreover, Ghiradelli, which is available almost
everywhere these days, is also fairly decent for a quick fix.)

Really, though, if you want good chocolates, read the label. The first
ingredient should be chocolate. That sounds simple until you start
reading labels and finding out that the usual first ingredient is
something like sugar or cocoa butter.

~Ali, who is laughing at how "spelling errors" is being picked up in this email



From jnferr at gmail.com  Mon Jan 14 03:26:18 2008
From: jnferr at gmail.com (Janette)
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 21:26:18 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Profiteroles?
In-Reply-To: <002101c8562c$219e2060$67a4a8c0@FRODO>
References: <fmduf0+28tb@eGroups.com> <002101c8562c$219e2060$67a4a8c0@FRODO>
Message-ID: <8ee758b40801131926i4afd655t1b3728621c052d85@mail.gmail.com>

>
> [Lee]:
>
> Now, isn't it also true that the real English Cadbury is not the same as
> the
> US attempt?  The UK Cadbury Dark is exquisite!  The US version is good,
> but
> not quite as good as the UK version.


montims:

Correct!  I got really excited when I found Cadbury's Dairy Milk in a
supermarket.  I saved it up, took it home, saved it up, then made a lovely
cup of tea and sat down for a bite.  Which I promptly spat out - I thought
it had gone past its sellby date or something, though I had never known that
to happen before.  It tasted dry and waxy and disgusting.  When I checked
the label, I saw it was made by Hershey...  The disappointment nearly made
me weep...


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Mon Jan 14 03:49:44 2008
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 03:49:44 -0000
Subject: Chocolate Search (was Re: Profiteroles?
In-Reply-To: <b6e131bf0801131833h49c45d18ybc77f9a7171d8275@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <fmem4o+f5iu@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "P. Alexis Nguyen" 
<alexisnguyen at ...> wrote:
<SNIP>
> I don't know where you're based, so I don't know if these 
suggestions
> will be feasible. At the minimum, though, I should note that I've
> never found a good, inexpensive dark chocolate bar - I've had very
> good bars where the price-quality ratio is exceptional, but that
> doesn't really mean inexpensive since these run anywhere from $3-7 
per
> bar.
> 
> That said, Vosges has boutiques in many large cities across the US,
> and their chocolates are available online - while the chocolate is
> very good here, the standouts are the flavoured bars, which is
> everything from matcha to bacon to acai berries.  Valrhona, the
> chocolates that Balthazar uses in their chocolate sauces [served 
with
> profiteroles], is available fairly widely, as far as I can tell - 
I've
> found in many places including Trader Joe's and gourmet grocery
> stores, but the selections are usually limited to the standard 56% 
and
> 76%. Jacques Torres, the famous chocolatier has good chocolates, 
and
> if you're in the Williamsburg store in NYC, conching happens there,
> which can be a fun thing to watch if you're really into chocolates.
> If you want a good US company, my favourite option is 
Scharfenberger,
> based out of CA - I've seen in occasionally in places like Trader
> Joe's or even the local market, but this stuff is available online.
> (All that being said, Hershey's is putting out a specialty line 
that
> isn't half bad and will do in a pinch, and I've seen this in even
> Midwest cities. Moreover, Ghiradelli, which is available almost
> everywhere these days, is also fairly decent for a quick fix.)
> 
> Really, though, if you want good chocolates, read the label. The 
first
> ingredient should be chocolate. That sounds simple until you start
> reading labels and finding out that the usual first ingredient is
> something like sugar or cocoa butter.
> 
> ~Ali, who is laughing at how "spelling errors" is being picked up 
in this email
>


Alla:

I must say that I am eating Jacques Torres bar right now, well not 
right now, but yesterday and today and I found it lovely.

I also tried Scharfenberger and liked it. I think Girardelli is 
okay, I suppose.

I hate Hershey, I think it is a very low quality stuff, but I did 
see their new line and tried something and actually hmmmm was not 
bad.


But all together, I am sorry, maybe I did not try the right stuff, 
but american chocolate cannot be compared to swiss and switzerland 
one and belgian one in my opinion.

I am chocoholic as well, but I decided long time ago that since I 
love chocolate, I will be eating good quality, high quality or none 
at all.

I mean, for example theutcher chocolates, I find them to be divine, 
simply divine and they have stores through US and available online.

I also love newhouse (spelling?) chocolate. YUM.

Alla





From n2fgc at arrl.net  Mon Jan 14 03:54:49 2008
From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Lee Storm(God Is The Healing Force))
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 22:54:49 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Profiteroles?
In-Reply-To: <8ee758b40801131926i4afd655t1b3728621c052d85@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002601c85661$364ab020$67a4a8c0@FRODO>

| montims:
| Correct!  I got really excited when I found Cadbury's Dairy Milk in a
| supermarket.  I saved it up, took it home, saved it up, then 
| made a lovely
| cup of tea and sat down for a bite.  Which I promptly spat 
| out - I thought
| it had gone past its sellby date or something, though I had 
| never known that
| to happen before.  It tasted dry and waxy and disgusting.  
| When I checked
| the label, I saw it was made by Hershey...  The 
| disappointment nearly made
| me weep...

[Lee]:
<LOL>  Sounds like the experience I had with the beautiful-looking
family-sized bar of Hershey Dark my loving husband gave me.  I got a cup of
good coffee and sat down with a piece of this nice big bar only to wonder if
my taste buds had suffered some sudden malfunction after taking a bite.  In
fact, I called to Art and asked him to taste the chocolate; his reaction was
similar to mine...intense disappointment and a bit of shock.

I'm making a list of all the responses I've received on good chocolate.  As
far as reading labels, well, they don't come in Braille, so I have to go by
taste. :-)  But I do intend to try some of the recommendations for sure.

I know that Newman's Own has good chocolate when I can find it. :-)

Cheers,

Lee :-)

Do not walk behind me,    | Lee Storm
I may not care to lead;   | N2FGC
Do not walk before me,    | n2fgc at arrl.net (or)
I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at optonline.net
Walk beside me, and be my friend.





From alexisnguyen at gmail.com  Mon Jan 14 04:17:57 2008
From: alexisnguyen at gmail.com (P. Alexis Nguyen)
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 23:17:57 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Chocolate Search (was Re: Profiteroles?
In-Reply-To: <fmem4o+f5iu@eGroups.com>
References: <b6e131bf0801131833h49c45d18ybc77f9a7171d8275@mail.gmail.com>
	 <fmem4o+f5iu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b6e131bf0801132017s110ecaf8l561b728a90598abf@mail.gmail.com>

Alla:
>  But all together, I am sorry, maybe I did not try the right stuff,
>  but american chocolate cannot be compared to swiss and switzerland
>  one and belgian one in my opinion.

Ali:
I think that depends. I'm based in Philadelphia and spend a ton of
time in New York City (though what I'm about to say will apply to most
large metropolitan areas). In such diverse cities, you're going to
find very good, locally made (as in locally conched) chocolates, but
really, even when I visit home (KS), I find that good food can still
be found if one is willing to look for it. Artisan chocolates is
having its day in the sun mostly due to the gourmet food revolution
going on right now [in America], but it's still a baby industry. (For
most Americans, Hershey's is still the standard, and how can you miss
"better" if you've never had it?) That said, I will go on record as
saying that *good* US chocolates can rival anything made in other
countries, though good US made is a rarer beast.


Alla:
>  I also love newhouse (spelling?) chocolate. YUM.

Ali:
That's Neuhaus, ridiculously expensive (and difficult to find) outside
of Brighton Beach (the NYC version, not the similarly named English
town).

I think I eat too much chocolate. Oh well. Maybe the last of the "hot"
chocolate in my fridge will cure that, though my "I once my a dessert
called death by chocolate and it only made me stronger" tissues tend
to indicate otherwise.

~Ali, wishing that it weren't too late to actually have a cold,
creamy, chocolaty drink and that she weren't too lazy to make the
"hot" chocolate hot again



From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Mon Jan 14 04:21:24 2008
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 04:21:24 -0000
Subject: Chocolate Search (was Re: Profiteroles?
In-Reply-To: <b6e131bf0801132017s110ecaf8l561b728a90598abf@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <fmeo04+b5u4@eGroups.com>

> Ali:
> That's Neuhaus, ridiculously expensive (and difficult to find) 
outside
> of Brighton Beach (the NYC version, not the similarly named English
> town).
>

Alla:

Oh LOL, no not on Brighton beach, believe me it is not. There are at 
least two amazing tiny stores in Manhattan, but expensive yes.




From gav_fiji at yahoo.com  Mon Jan 14 04:30:21 2008
From: gav_fiji at yahoo.com (Goddlefrood)
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 04:30:21 -0000
Subject: Chocolate Search (was Re: Profiteroles?
In-Reply-To: <fmem4o+f5iu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fmeogt+g1dd@eGroups.com>

> Alla:
> I hate Hershey, I think it is a very low quality stuff, but I 
> did see their new line and tried something and actually hmmmm 
> was ot bad.

Goddlefrood:

Hershey is sold, or rather unsold on the shelves, in the 
supermarkets here in Fiji. It really is quite vile

> Alla:
> But all together, I am sorry, maybe I did not try the right 
> stuff, but american chocolate cannot be compared to swiss 
> and switzerland one and belgian one in my opinion.

Goddlefrood:

These two are part of the great triumvirate of chocolate nations, 
with the other being the UK. American chocolate I find a little 
waxy and not particularly tasty. I did grow up in the UK and have 
numerous Swiss friends who sent chocolate on a regular basis, so 
perhaps that's why I never took to the US chocolate, Canadian too 
actually.

One tip - take lots of flights so you can buy decent chocolate 
from airport duty frees. Otherwise import the stuff, you know 
it would make sense to do so, either that or find a store that 
imports the good stuff. There must be some of them around in 
North America, right? Particularly in the major cities.




From n2fgc at arrl.net  Mon Jan 14 04:31:22 2008
From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Lee Storm(God Is The Healing Force))
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 23:31:22 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Chocolate Search (was Re: Profiteroles?
In-Reply-To: <b6e131bf0801132017s110ecaf8l561b728a90598abf@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002701c85666$512f5ad0$67a4a8c0@FRODO>

| Ali:
<Snip>
| (For
| most Americans, Hershey's is still the standard, and how can you miss
| "better" if you've never had it?)

[Lee]:
Interestingly, I generally preferred Nestles to Hershey's even when I was a
kid.  Hm--Methinks I'll have to get my sweetheart to drive me to Trader
Joe's.  For now, I have a Lint (sp?) bar to chomp on...they're pretty good.

And, Ali, I'm here in North Central NJ.

Cheers,

Lee :-)

Do not walk behind me,    | Lee Storm
I may not care to lead;   | N2FGC
Do not walk before me,    | n2fgc at arrl.net (or)
I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at optonline.net
Walk beside me, and be my friend.





From zanelupin at yahoo.com  Mon Jan 14 06:56:38 2008
From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (KathyK)
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 06:56:38 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 1/13/2008, 1:00 pm
In-Reply-To: <fmdv2n+njk5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fmf136+oprg@eGroups.com>

Carol:

> Okay, I know I look like an idiot for responding to a chat
> announcement, but can someone tell me why this announcement always
> appears twice on OT chatter and only once on the other lists? It's
> been bugging me for a long time.

KathyK:

I thought I might have messed up the last time I edited the Chat
reminder here on OTC and added in an extra reminder but I don't think
I did.  The message archive here seems to indicate that OTC has had
two reminders about chat since before I became a list elf in early
2005.  The main list has had one reminder since before I joined the
group in '03.  I was too tired to go back further.  

There *were* two chat entries listed in the calendar on Main until
today and both were set to send reminders but only one of them was
actually doing its job, which is good since the second had outdated
chat information.  So I deleted it.  

So, I don't know why it's set up that way.  Maybe Kelley or Sheryll
might know and remember?

Also, Carol, I added that post you recommended to the database and
snagged the "what it's about" section from your post.  

For everyone who doesn't know, all anyone needs to do is email the
hpforgrownups-owner email address to add something to the Recommended
Posts databases.  There are two of them (pre-OOP and a post-OOP) and
they can be found over at the Main group here:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database

KathyK, who doesn't recommend searching for weekly chat reminder posts
as it's quite boring




From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Mon Jan 14 07:05:20 2008
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 07:05:20 -0000
Subject: Chocolate Lovers Unite (was Re: Profiteroles?)
In-Reply-To: <3EBC8113FA09F449B6CC44C847E510911CDFC6322D@QUTEXMBX02.qut.edu.au>
Message-ID: <fmf1jg+pql2@eGroups.com>

--- Sharon Hayes <s.hayes at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> ...
> 
> Sharon:
> We have a recipe for chocolate crackles that is to die 
> for -- guaranteed to satisfy any chocolate craving. Just 
> melt a bag of good quality chocolate chips in the microwave
> and stir in two tablespoons of peanut butter and two cups 
> of rice bubbles (rice crispies? puffs? Not sure what 
> they're called there.) Drop spoonsful onto a lined tray and
> set in the fridge. Honestly, you wouldn't believe how yummy
> they are.
>

bboyminn:

Ow...we're doing recipes now. Here is one that was surprisingly
good. This Christmas my mother can across a new recipe, you
simply take a Ritz cracker, spread some peanut butter on it,
then coat the top with melted chocolate flavored Almond Bark.

I suppose you could do the same thing with real melted 
chocolate too. It sounds too stupid and simple to work but
they were fantastic. 

Eventually, it got to be too much work to make the Ritz cookies,
so my mother just took peanuts and drizzled on the chocolate
almond bark to make chocolate peanut clusters, also very
good. 

Easy recipes that taste fantastic.

Steve/bboyminn




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Mon Jan 14 07:34:43 2008
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 07:34:43 -0000
Subject: Chocolate Search (was Re: Profiteroles?
In-Reply-To: <002701c85666$512f5ad0$67a4a8c0@FRODO>
Message-ID: <fmf3aj+4etm@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Lee Storm(God Is The Healing Force)" 
<n2fgc at ...> wrote:

Ali:
> > (For most Americans, Hershey's is still the standard, and how can you miss
> > "better" if you've never had it?)
 
Lee:
> Interestingly, I generally preferred Nestles to Hershey's even when I was a
> kid.  Hm--Methinks I'll have to get my sweetheart to drive me to Trader
> Joe's.  For now, I have a Lint (sp?) bar to chomp on...they're pretty good.
 
Geoff:
The spelling is Lindt. They are a Swiss firm. Here, in the UK, for really top 
notch chocolate, we tend to go for Belgian.





From kempermentor at yahoo.com  Mon Jan 14 07:42:53 2008
From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kemper mentor)
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 23:42:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Chocolate Search (was Re: Profiteroles?
Message-ID: <193962.11947.qm@web90403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


>> Alla:

 >> I hate Hershey, I think it is a very low quality stuff, but I 

 >>did see their new line and tried something and actually hmmmm 

 >> was ot bad.

 

 > Goddlefrood:

 
> Hershey is sold, or rather unsold on the shelves, in the 

> supermarkets here in Fiji. It really is quite vile

 

Kemper now:
Hershey's is shit and wax.  It's great in a pinch if you don't have kindling and need to start a fire.


>> Alla:

 >> But all together, I am sorry, maybe I did not try the right 

 >> stuff, but american chocolate cannot be compared to swiss 

 >> and switzerland one and belgian one in my opinion.

 

 > Goddlefrood:

 
> These two are part of the great triumvirate of chocolate nations, 

> with the other being the UK. American chocolate I find a little 

 > waxy and not particularly tasty. I did grow up in the UK and have 

 > numerous Swiss friends who sent chocolate on a regular basis, so 

 > perhaps that's why I never took to the US chocolate, Canadian too 

 > actually.

 

Kemper now:
Goddlefrood, what else have you had besides maybe Hershey's, Nestle's, See's, or Ghirardelli?
You and Alla should give Moonstruck a go.  
Alla, you can find it at Whole Foods on East Houston or on Union Square.
Or at Balducci's on West 66th.   
Goddlefrood,  um... good luck. How much does it cost to send something to Fiji from the States?  Maybe SSS knows.

Kemper




      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better friend, newshound, and 
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.  http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ 




From zanelupin at yahoo.com  Mon Jan 14 07:44:23 2008
From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (KathyK)
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 07:44:23 -0000
Subject: the letter box project / copyrights, intellectual property, literary critici
In-Reply-To: <fmcb5r+f6fs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fmf3sn+sr35@eGroups.com>

> << KathyK, who would now never send fanmail >>

Catlady asked:
 
> Why not?

KathyK:

I just don't see how my sending fan mail to anyone would be a
worthwhile thing for anyone.  I wouldn't have anything to say that
hasn't been heard a million times before and I wouldn't want to waste
my time sending something that was merely an "OMG You are awesome"
message, which is pretty much all I am capable of saying when I become
an obsessive fan the way I was with HP.*  I feel it would be
particularly pointless and redundant for me to send fan mail to
someone as famous as JKR, who probably has millions of letters telling
her how great we think she is and thus doesn't need another piece of
mail she'll never manage to get to that says the same thing as many
others.

I'm not against fan letters.  I'm just against me sending them. 

Did that make any sense?  

KathyK


*Unless I, for instance, meet John Linnell at a signing and tell him
that They Might Be Giants are bankrupting me.  That's not quite the
same as "OMG You are awesome," though it's because of the Awesome that
I say such stupid things.




From n2fgc at arrl.net  Mon Jan 14 14:42:03 2008
From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Lee Storm(God Is The Healing Force))
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 09:42:03 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Chocolate Search (was Re: Profiteroles?
In-Reply-To: <193962.11947.qm@web90403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <002e01c856bb$a0e8bee0$67a4a8c0@FRODO>

| Kemper now:
| Hershey's is shit and wax.  It's great in a pinch if you 
| don't have kindling and need to start a fire.

[Lee]:
<LOL!>

And I can definitely say that, as a remedy against the effects of Dementors,
it would probably bee as useful as a sugar pill. :-)

Cheers,

Lee :-)

Do not walk behind me,    | Lee Storm
I may not care to lead;   | N2FGC
Do not walk before me,    | n2fgc at arrl.net (or)
I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at optonline.net
Walk beside me, and be my friend.





From kempermentor at yahoo.com  Mon Jan 14 15:29:02 2008
From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kemper mentor)
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 07:29:02 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Chocolate Search (was Re: Profiteroles?
Message-ID: <673317.6962.qm@web90406.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


                               | Kemper earlier:

 | Hershey's is shit and wax.  It's great in a pinch if you 

 | don't have kindling and need to start a fire.

 

 [Lee]:

 <LOL!>

 

 And I can definitely say that, as a remedy against the effects of Dementors,

 it would probably bee as useful as a sugar pill. :-)

 


Kemper now:
As useful, but not as flavorful.

Kemper, who heard Milton Hershey's mom was a Dementor and wanted to decrease chocolates naturopathic and magickal benefits 




      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Looking for last minute shopping deals?  
Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.  http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping



From s_ings at yahoo.com  Mon Jan 14 15:50:30 2008
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 10:50:30 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Happy Birthday, Mike!
Message-ID: <149773.10580.qm@web63407.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

*tosses off the covers, crawls out of her sick bed and
drags the decorations box into the party room*

Okay, okay, I'm getting to it. I am!

*hastily throws decorations around the room, with most
of the sticking in the right places*

Sorry, the best I can do at the moment. Besides, I
know you people - you're all just here for the food!

Today's birthday honouree is Mike. Birthday owls can
be sent care of this list or directly to Mike at:
mcrudele78 at yahoo.com

*exits briefly and reappears dragging trolleys of
drinks, sandwiches and a towering cake covered in
multi-coloured icing*

Enjoy, everyone!

Mike, I hope your day is filled with fun and magic and
that among your birthday wishes granted is a winning
season for your hockey team (though not if it means
beating mine). <vbg>

Happy Birthday, Mike!

Sheryll the Birthday Elf, heading back to bed

Join the fun at Convention Alley 2008



      Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers and share what you know at http://ca.answers.yahoo.com



From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Mon Jan 14 18:06:19 2008
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 18:06:19 -0000
Subject: Happy Birthday, Mike!
In-Reply-To: <149773.10580.qm@web63407.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <fmg8ar+qvph@eGroups.com>

> Happy Birthday, Mike!
> 
> Sheryll the Birthday Elf, heading back to bed


Magpie:
Happy birthday, Mike! Something tells me you preside over great 
parties...

-m




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Mon Jan 14 18:26:31 2008
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 18:26:31 -0000
Subject: Happy Birthday, Mike!
In-Reply-To: <fmg8ar+qvph@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fmg9gn+23ti@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "sistermagpie" 
<sistermagpie at ...> wrote:
>
> > Happy Birthday, Mike!
> > 
> > Sheryll the Birthday Elf, heading back to bed
> 
> 
> Magpie:
> Happy birthday, Mike! Something tells me you preside over great 
> parties...
> 

Alla:

INDEEEDY. Happy Birthday the Greatest one.




From minnesotatiffany at hotmail.com  Mon Jan 14 18:34:27 2008
From: minnesotatiffany at hotmail.com (Tiffany B. Clark)
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 18:34:27 -0000
Subject: Happy Birthday, Mike!
In-Reply-To: <149773.10580.qm@web63407.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <fmg9vj+bd88@eGroups.com>

> Sheryll Townsend:
>
> *tosses off the covers, crawls out of her sick bed and drags the 
decorations box into the party room*

Okay, okay, I'm getting to it. I am!
 
*hastily throws decorations around the room, with most of the 
sticking in the right places*

Sorry, the best I can do at the moment. Besides, I know you people -
you're all just here for the food!

Today's birthday honouree is Mike. Birthday owls can be sent care of 
this list or directly to Mike at: mcrudele78 at ...

*exits briefly and reappears dragging trolleys of drinks, sandwiches 
and a towering cake covered in multi-coloured icing*

Enjoy, everyone!
 
Mike, I hope your day is filled with fun and magic and that among 
your birthday wishes granted is a winning season for your hockey team 
(though not if it means beating mine). <vbg>

Happy Birthday, Mike!

Sheryll the Birthday Elf, heading back to bed
 
Join the fun at Convention Alley 2008

Tiffany:

I hope you have a real good birthday today Mike & make it one to 
remember also.




From n2fgc at arrl.net  Mon Jan 14 19:16:06 2008
From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Lee Storm(God Is The Healing Force))
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 14:16:06 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Happy Birthday, Mike!
In-Reply-To: <fmg9vj+bd88@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <001901c856e1$e9f447f0$67a4a8c0@FRODO>

Happy Birthday to Mike!

I feel guilty, though, celebrating while our Birthday Elf is sick a-bed and
sleeping in the next room.  We should save her some cake.

Cheers,

Lee :-)





From tonks_op at yahoo.com  Mon Jan 14 19:17:29 2008
From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks)
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 19:17:29 -0000
Subject: Chocolate Search
In-Reply-To: <fmf3aj+4etm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fmgcg9+bb59@eGroups.com>

> Geoff:
> The spelling is Lindt. They are a Swiss firm. Here, in the UK, for 
really top notch chocolate, we tend to go for Belgian.

Tonks:
I live in Michigan and I have never seen or hear of most of the 
names that were mentioned by those who live in NYC. (I don't go to 
the big cites like Detroit, etc. Too much traffic and I don't do 
large shopping centers anymore either.) 

I like milk chocolate and when I eat it I like to drink some milk 
with it. Dove is nice, Girardelli is nice, and Godiva has a really 
nice dark chocolate and raspberry one. We do have a small company in 
town that makes its own chocolates and it is very nice.  As to other 
US brands, Cadbury taste cheap, Hershey???s and Nestles are not as 
good as Dove. And none of it really gives what a real Seeker is 
looking for.

The real secret to good chocolate is, as someone said, the 
ingredients.  Too many companies use corn syrup.  That is like 
baking cookies and using margarine instead of butter. If you are 
gone to go to the trouble of making something, use the best 
ingredients. Up north we have a lot of companies that make fudge. 
The better ones show you how it is made and explain why theirs cost 
more because of better ingredients. 

The truth is, IMO, that the US can not make chocolate like the 
Europeans can.  When the Harry Potter candy first came out it was 
not available in the US. I got some on E-bay and it was wonderful.  
Honeydukes were my favorite. Chocolate frogs were great!! But when 
the US started making them, ugh!!  Only reason to buy them was for 
the trading cards. The candy wasn???t fit for consumption.  The only 
real good stuff that we can get here is Lindt, I like theirs best. 
But I still have not had a really good chocolate that I can say is 
the very best in the world. We do have a couple of stores here that 
import.  World Market being one of them. What name should I look for 
from Belgian?






From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Mon Jan 14 19:35:44 2008
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 19:35:44 -0000
Subject: Chocolate Search
In-Reply-To: <fmgcg9+bb59@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fmgdig+sa49@eGroups.com>

Tonks:
> The truth is, IMO, that the US can not make chocolate like the 
> Europeans can.  When the Harry Potter candy first came out it was 
> not available in the US. I got some on E-bay and it was wonderful.  
> Honeydukes were my favorite. Chocolate frogs were great!! But when 
> the US started making them, ugh!!  Only reason to buy them was for 
> the trading cards. The candy wasn???t fit for consumption.  The only 
> real good stuff that we can get here is Lindt, I like theirs best. 


Magpie:
I'm pretty sure this is literally true. I can't remember where I was 
reading this recently--I'll try to look it up. It wasn't the 
ingredients, but something about the process of actually making the 
stuff. Basically, there's a process for making chocolate out of the 
beans or whatever, and there were different ways that people tried to 
do it. Hershey was I believe the person who got it to work in the US, 
but his method is different--and inferior--to whatever was discovered 
elsewhere. And that's why US chocolate has a sort of waxiness that's 
inferior to the way chocolate tastes outside of the US. 

I'll try to find the thing where I was reading this recently.

-m




From minnesotatiffany at hotmail.com  Mon Jan 14 19:36:02 2008
From: minnesotatiffany at hotmail.com (Tiffany B. Clark)
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 19:36:02 -0000
Subject: Chocolate Search (was Re: Profiteroles?
In-Reply-To: <fmeogt+g1dd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fmgdj2+aibj@eGroups.com>

> Goddlefrood:
>
> These two are part of the great triumvirate of chocolate nations,  
with the other being the UK. American chocolate I find a little 
waxy and not particularly tasty. I did grow up in the UK and have 
numerous Swiss friends who sent chocolate on a regular basis, so 
perhaps that's why I never took to the US chocolate, Canadian too 
actually.

One tip - take lots of flights so you can buy decent chocolate 
from airport duty frees. Otherwise import the stuff, you know 
it would make sense to do so, either that or find a store that 
imports the good stuff. There must be some of them around in 
North America, right? Particularly in the major cities.

Tiffany:

B. T. McElrath is a nice gourmet chocolatier here in the Twin Cities 
area.  They're not too well known outside of Minnesota to the best of 
my knowledge because they've only got a few shops outside of the Twin 
Cities.  They make some real nice smooth & velvety chocolates, not 
like the typical candy bar stuff.  They ship to all over the USA, but 
don't know if they go overseas or not.  I've been to a few of their 
shops & haven't been disappointed at all by their products.




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Mon Jan 14 19:36:50 2008
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 19:36:50 -0000
Subject: Chocolate Search (was Re: Profiteroles?
In-Reply-To: <673317.6962.qm@web90406.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <fmgdki+1im9@eGroups.com>

Kemper now:
Goddlefrood, what else have you had besides maybe Hershey's, Nestle's, 
See's, or
Ghirardelli?
You and Alla should give Moonstruck a go.
Alla, you can find it at Whole Foods on East Houston or on Union 
Square.
Or at Balducci's on West 66th.
Goddlefrood, um... good luck. How much does it cost to send something 
to Fiji
from the States? Maybe SSS knows.


Alla:

Kemper, do you have to put an idea in my head of trying new chocolate?

BAD Kemper, bad :)





From willsonkmom at msn.com  Mon Jan 14 20:54:14 2008
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 20:54:14 -0000
Subject: Happy Birthday, Mike!
In-Reply-To: <001901c856e1$e9f447f0$67a4a8c0@FRODO>
Message-ID: <fmgi5m+n9s8@eGroups.com>



> Lee wrote:
> I feel guilty, though, celebrating while our Birthday Elf is sick a-
bed and
> sleeping in the next room.  We should save her some cake.


Potioncat:
And I feel a little queasy drinking the punch---do you think she 
breathed near it?

Happy birthday, Mike.

Get well soon, Birthday Elf. 
Kathy




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Mon Jan 14 21:04:37 2008
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 21:04:37 -0000
Subject: Recommended Posts and Fan Fics (wasRe: Weekly Chat, 1/13/2008, 1:00 pm
In-Reply-To: <fmf136+oprg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fmgip5+kgfg@eGroups.com>

 "KathyK" wrote: 
snip 
> 
> For everyone who doesn't know, all anyone needs to do is email the
> hpforgrownups-owner email address to add something to the 
Recommended
> Posts databases.  There are two of them (pre-OOP and a post-OOP) and
> they can be found over at the Main group here:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database


Potioncat:
Oh, my. What a walk down memory lane that is! <Sigh>

I'd forgotten about the recommended posts site, had cofused it 
with "Fantatic Posts and Where to Find Them" site--which is another 
place I haven't been to in a long time.


I don't think I ever knew there was a database for fanfics. Looks 
like there's one here and at the main list. Are those lists still 
active? I don't see a date on them---nor very many fics.
Is there an interest in continuing / resuming it?




From ladymela99 at yahoo.com  Mon Jan 14 21:13:48 2008
From: ladymela99 at yahoo.com (Melanie)
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 13:13:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Chocolate Search (was Re: Profiteroles?
In-Reply-To: <fmgdj2+aibj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <443168.38177.qm@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Esther Price candies in Dayton, Ohio are extremely good.  The texture and quality far outweighs what you find in most chocolate shops in the U.S.  I can't compare them to imports but honestly they are very good.  http://www.esterprice.com/

       
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From alexisnguyen at gmail.com  Mon Jan 14 22:31:48 2008
From: alexisnguyen at gmail.com (P. Alexis Nguyen)
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 17:31:48 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Chocolate Search
In-Reply-To: <fmgdig+sa49@eGroups.com>
References: <fmgcg9+bb59@eGroups.com> <fmgdig+sa49@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b6e131bf0801141431i21dcb912h3f154f92a45d23fa@mail.gmail.com>

Magpie:
> I'm pretty sure this is literally true. I can't remember where I was
> reading this recently--I'll try to look it up. It wasn't the
> ingredients, but something about the process of actually making the
> stuff. Basically, there's a process for making chocolate out of the
> beans or whatever, and there were different ways that people tried to
> do it. Hershey was I believe the person who got it to work in the US,
> but his method is different--and inferior--to whatever was discovered
> elsewhere. And that's why US chocolate has a sort of waxiness that's
> inferior to the way chocolate tastes outside of the US.

You're talking about the history of industrializing the chocolate
industry. Before Milton Hershey, chocolate was a very boutique,
small-scale production item, making it mostly unavailable to the
masses. Hershey did perfect, though I don't know that he invented it,
the chocolate mass production process, and thus chocolate was given to
the masses (like fire from Prometheus ^_^).

I'm going to sound like a broken record for this one, but I'll repeat
it.  Good US chocolates can rival good European chocolates, though the
former is a rather rare breed - example: Scharfenberger.  Also, places
like Max Brenner and Jacques Torres, both in New York City, conches
chocolate in-house, and despite certain facts, like that Jacques
Torres is clearly French, it remains that this is all US-made stuff -
much of the cacao beans are still foreign, though I think some do come
from Hawaii.

~Ali, who does not make/eat chocolates for a living



From s.hayes at qut.edu.au  Mon Jan 14 22:45:00 2008
From: s.hayes at qut.edu.au (Sharon Hayes)
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 08:45:00 +1000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Chocolate Search
In-Reply-To: <b6e131bf0801141431i21dcb912h3f154f92a45d23fa@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3EBC8113FA09F449B6CC44C847E510911CE0260CE2@QUTEXMBX02.qut.edu.au>

Ali:
I'm going to sound like a broken record for this one, but I'll repeat
it. Good US chocolates can rival good European chocolates, though the
former is a rather rare breed - example: Scharfenberger. Also, places
like Max Brenner and Jacques Torres, both in New York City, conches
chocolate in-house, and despite certain facts, like that Jacques
Torres is clearly French, it remains that this is all US-made stuff -
much of the cacao beans are still foreign, though I think some do come
from Hawaii.
Sharon:
There are also some excellent chocolatiers in the French Quarter in New Orleans who make divine chocolate and pralines -- oh, and one that makes the ebst chocolate fudge. Sorry I can't remember the names of them though.  Makes my mouth water just thinking about it.

________________________________
From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com [mailto:HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of P. Alexis Nguyen
Sent: Tuesday, 15 January 2008 8:32 AM
To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Chocolate Search


Magpie:
> I'm pretty sure this is literally true. I can't remember where I was
> reading this recently--I'll try to look it up. It wasn't the
> ingredients, but something about the process of actually making the
> stuff. Basically, there's a process for making chocolate out of the
> beans or whatever, and there were different ways that people tried to
> do it. Hershey was I believe the person who got it to work in the US,
> but his method is different--and inferior--to whatever was discovered
> elsewhere. And that's why US chocolate has a sort of waxiness that's
> inferior to the way chocolate tastes outside of the US.

You're talking about the history of industrializing the chocolate
industry. Before Milton Hershey, chocolate was a very boutique,
small-scale production item, making it mostly unavailable to the
masses. Hershey did perfect, though I don't know that he invented it,
the chocolate mass production process, and thus chocolate was given to
the masses (like fire from Prometheus ^_^).

I'm going to sound like a broken record for this one, but I'll repeat
it. Good US chocolates can rival good European chocolates, though the
former is a rather rare breed - example: Scharfenberger. Also, places
like Max Brenner and Jacques Torres, both in New York City, conches
chocolate in-house, and despite certain facts, like that Jacques
Torres is clearly French, it remains that this is all US-made stuff -
much of the cacao beans are still foreign, though I think some do come
from Hawaii.

~Ali, who does not make/eat chocolates for a living




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From s.hayes at qut.edu.au  Mon Jan 14 22:46:04 2008
From: s.hayes at qut.edu.au (Sharon Hayes)
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 08:46:04 +1000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Chocolate Search
In-Reply-To: <b6e131bf0801141431i21dcb912h3f154f92a45d23fa@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3EBC8113FA09F449B6CC44C847E510911CE0260CEB@QUTEXMBX02.qut.edu.au>

My apologies for sending that last email without deleting all the rubbish below it.  My finger hit enter before my brain could stop it!

Sharon





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From gav_fiji at yahoo.com  Mon Jan 14 22:56:19 2008
From: gav_fiji at yahoo.com (Goddlefrood)
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 22:56:19 -0000
Subject: Chocolate Search (was Re: Profiteroles?
In-Reply-To: <193962.11947.qm@web90403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <fmgpaj+guvi@eGroups.com>

> Kemper now:
> Goddlefrood, what else have you had besides maybe Hershey's, 
> Nestle's, See's, or Ghirardelli? You and Alla should give 
> Moonstruck a go. 

Goddlefrood:

I watched it years ago and was disappointed with Cher's 
performance ;-)

> Kemper:
> Goddlefrood,  um... good luck. How much does it cost to send 
> something to Fiji from the States?  Maybe SSS knows.

Goddlefrood:

It's not that much really, is some Moonstruck wending its way 
here?




From kempermentor at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 15 01:59:20 2008
From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kemper mentor)
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 17:59:20 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Chocolate Search (was Re: Profiteroles?
Message-ID: <677366.80588.qm@web90405.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


> Kemper earlier:

 > Goddlefrood, what else have you had besides maybe Hershey's, 

 > Nestle's, See's, or Ghirardelli? You and Alla should give 

 > Moonstruck a go. 

 

 Goddlefrood:

 
I watched it years ago and was disappointed with Cher's 

 performance ;-)

 


Kemper now:
Who wasn't?


 > Kemper earlier:

 > Goddlefrood,  um... good luck. How much does it cost to send 

 > something to Fiji from the States?  Maybe SSS knows.

 

 Goddlefrood:

 
It's not that much really, is some Moonstruck wending its way 

 here?

 

 
Kemper now:
Could be...




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From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 15 02:13:54 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 02:13:54 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 1/13/2008, 1:00 pm
In-Reply-To: <fmf136+oprg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fmh4t2+23rb@eGroups.com>

Carol earlier:
> 
> > Okay, I know I look like an idiot for responding to a chat
> > announcement, but can someone tell me why this announcement always
> > appears twice on OT chatter and only once on the other lists? It's
> > been bugging me for a long time.
> 
> KathyK:
> 
> I thought I might have messed up the last time I edited the Chat
reminder here on OTC and added in an extra reminder but I don't think
I did.  The message archive here seems to indicate that OTC has had
two reminders about chat since before I became a list elf in early
2005.  The main list has had one reminder since before I joined the
group in '03.  I was too tired to go back further.  
> 
> There *were* two chat entries listed in the calendar on Main until
today and both were set to send reminders but only one of them was
actually doing its job, which is good since the second had outdated
chat information.  So I deleted it.  
> 
<snip>
> 
> Also, Carol, I added that post you recommended to the database and
snagged the "what it's about" section from your post.  
> 
> For everyone who doesn't know, all anyone needs to do is email the
hpforgrownups-owner email address to add something to the Recommended
Posts databases.  There are two of them (pre-OOP and a post-OOP) and
they can be found over at the Main group here:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database
> 
> KathyK, who doesn't recommend searching for weekly chat reminder
posts as it's quite boring
>
Carol again:

Many thanks for your hard work. I'm glad to know that we can still add
to the Recommended Posts. Maybe they could be mentioned in the note
that Newbies receive when they join(?).

Carol, with apologies for the short post but I didn't want your kind
response to go unacknowledged




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 15 02:18:19 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 02:18:19 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 1/13/2008, 1:00 pm
In-Reply-To: <fmf136+oprg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fmh55b+vjng@eGroups.com>

Carol earlier:
> 
> > Okay, I know I look like an idiot for responding to a chat
> > announcement, but can someone tell me why this announcement always
> > appears twice on OT chatter and only once on the other lists? It's
> > been bugging me for a long time.
> 
> KathyK:
> 
> I thought I might have messed up the last time I edited the Chat
reminder here on OTC and added in an extra reminder but I don't think
I did.  The message archive here seems to indicate that OTC has had
two reminders about chat since before I became a list elf in early
2005.  The main list has had one reminder since before I joined the
group in '03.  I was too tired to go back further.  
> 
> There *were* two chat entries listed in the calendar on Main until
today and both were set to send reminders but only one of them was
actually doing its job, which is good since the second had outdated
chat information.  So I deleted it.  
> 
<snip>
> 
> Also, Carol, I added that post you recommended to the database and
snagged the "what it's about" section from your post.  
> 
> For everyone who doesn't know, all anyone needs to do is email the
hpforgrownups-owner email address to add something to the Recommended
Posts databases.  There are two of them (pre-OOP and a post-OOP) and
they can be found over at the Main group here:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database
> 
> KathyK, who doesn't recommend searching for weekly chat reminder
posts as it's quite boring
>
Carol again:

Many thanks for your hard work. I'm glad to know that we can still add
to the Recommended Posts. Maybe they could be mentioned in the note
that Newbies receive when they join(?).

Carol, with apologies for the short post but I didn't want your kind
response to go unacknowledged




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 15 02:21:40 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 02:21:40 -0000
Subject: Happy Birthday, Mike!
In-Reply-To: <001901c856e1$e9f447f0$67a4a8c0@FRODO>
Message-ID: <fmh5bk+mefm@eGroups.com>

Lee wrote:
>
> Happy Birthday to Mike!
> 
> I feel guilty, though, celebrating while our Birthday Elf is sick
a-bed and sleeping in the next room.  We should save her some cake.
> 

>
Carol:

Me, too, on both counts.

Carol, hoping that Sheryll is feeling better




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 15 02:29:50 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 02:29:50 -0000
Subject: Chocolate Search
In-Reply-To: <fmgcg9+bb59@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fmh5qu+gf37@eGroups.com>

Tonks:
> I live in Michigan and I have never seen or hear of most of the 
> names that were mentioned by those who live in NYC. (I don't go to 
> the big cites like Detroit, etc. Too much traffic and I don't do 
> large shopping centers anymore either.) 
<snip>
 
> The truth is, IMO, that the US can not make chocolate like the 
> Europeans can.  <snip>

Carol responds:

Okay, okay. I'll talk chocolate. Not being an expert on the subject or
a gourmet or wealthy or European, I'll settle for my occasional Milky
Way. The Milky Way caramels are good, too, milk chocolate and all, but
I still prefer licorice. 

But everyone seems to be talking about chocolate bars. What about
filled chocolates, the kind that come in heart-shaped boxes on
Valentine's Day. I happen to prefer milk chocolates with cream
centers, but that's just me. Any particular American brands, such as
See's or Whitman's, that anyone wants to recommend (or disparage)?

Carol, who thought it was just her own tastebuds that made Hershey
Bars taste like wax




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 15 02:37:32 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 02:37:32 -0000
Subject: Chocolate Search
In-Reply-To: <3EBC8113FA09F449B6CC44C847E510911CE0260CEB@QUTEXMBX02.qut.edu.au>
Message-ID: <fmh69c+relf@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Sharon Hayes <s.hayes at ...> wrote:
>
> My apologies for sending that last email without deleting all the
rubbish below it.  My finger hit enter before my brain could stop it!
> 
> Sharon

Carol responds:

It was the gremlins at work, right, Geoff?

Carol, who can't remember *ever* writing so many short posts




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 15 02:42:38 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 02:42:38 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 1/13/2008, 1:00 pm
In-Reply-To: <fmh55b+vjng@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fmh6iu+qg6l@eGroups.com>

Carol again:
> 
> Many thanks for your hard work. I'm glad to know that we can still add
> to the Recommended Posts. Maybe they could be mentioned in the note
> that Newbies receive when they join(?).
> 
> Carol, with apologies for the short post but I didn't want your kind
> response to go unacknowledged
>
Carol again:

What the??? Kemper, please supply me some unwritten expletives. My
response to the post about chat announcements posting twice posted
twice! Peeves! I'll get you for this, Peeves! I'll tell Dumbledore!

Carol, exiting Filch mode and OT Chatter for fear that you'll think
I've gone insane (Where's that wretched poltergeist? Peeves!!!)




From alexisnguyen at gmail.com  Tue Jan 15 03:04:55 2008
From: alexisnguyen at gmail.com (P. Alexis Nguyen)
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 22:04:55 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Weekly Chat, 1/13/2008, 1:00 pm
In-Reply-To: <fmh6iu+qg6l@eGroups.com>
References: <fmh55b+vjng@eGroups.com> <fmh6iu+qg6l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b6e131bf0801141904j241e6827o423f4d74f378d90e@mail.gmail.com>

>  Carol, exiting Filch mode and OT Chatter for fear that you'll think
>  I've gone insane (Where's that wretched poltergeist? Peeves!!!)

I think he probably went back into my work computer. All last week
(and today!!!), Word has been "not processing" some of the corrections
I've made to documents. Do you know how embarrassing it is to have
someone come back to you with a document you know you've edited and
have them say that you "missed" something?  Arg!  I think Peeves has
discovered the world wide web and has been having far too much fun
sabotaging people. Pah. (What can I say? All the embarrassment is
turning me into Scrooge...and not McDuck, either.)

~Ali



From kempermentor at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 15 03:07:24 2008
From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kemper mentor)
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 19:07:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Chocolate Search
Message-ID: <632360.49323.qm@web90410.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


Carol responds:

 
Okay, okay. I'll talk chocolate. Not being an expert on the subject or

 a gourmet or wealthy or European, I'll settle for my occasional Milky

 Way. ...

 But everyone seems to be talking about chocolate bars. What about

 filled chocolates, the kind that come in heart-shaped boxes on

 Valentine's Day. I happen to prefer milk chocolates with cream

 centers, but that's just me. Any particular American brands, such as

 See's or Whitman's, that anyone wants to recommend (or disparage)?

 



Kemper now:
See's and Whitman's are a C-, maybe a C.
For an A, checkout Moonstruck truffles:
http://www.moonstruckchocolate.com/MeetTheTruffles.aspx

Kemper, hoping he gets a Chile Variado chocolate bar for pimpin' Moonstruck so vigorously




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From drdara at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 15 03:14:43 2008
From: drdara at yahoo.com (danielle dassero)
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 19:14:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: HP & DH Movie
Message-ID: <804101.45017.qm@web60720.mail.yahoo.com>

I know Steve Kloves has been confrimed that he will write teh 7th screenplay, however he can't start work till the writers strike is cleared up. Well I have a solution, have a contest, take the best top 5 fan fiction authors, send them to a screen writers class and let them write the screenplay for the 7th movie. Because at this point, it may be wayyyyyyyyyy beyond 2010 before we see the DH come alive on the big screen.

Danielle


PS I agree with most people best chocolate I ever had was in europe  when I was growing up in Holland. :D


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From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 15 03:15:56 2008
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 03:15:56 -0000
Subject: Chocolate Search
In-Reply-To: <632360.49323.qm@web90410.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <fmh8hc+jr8q@eGroups.com>

> Kemper now:
> See's and Whitman's are a C-, maybe a C.
> For an A, checkout Moonstruck truffles:
> http://www.moonstruckchocolate.com/MeetTheTruffles.aspx
> 
> Kemper, hoping he gets a Chile Variado chocolate bar for pimpin' 
Moonstruck so vigorously


Alla:

Whitman is D- if you ask me. And that I am being generous LOL.

And AHA. I knew that I saw this Moonstruck and now I will tell you I 
did tried couple of truffles at that store.

They are good indeed. I would not rank them as my very favorite, but 
I enjoyed them immensely.

Heeeee.




From alexisnguyen at gmail.com  Tue Jan 15 03:21:38 2008
From: alexisnguyen at gmail.com (P. Alexis Nguyen)
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 22:21:38 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Chocolate Search
In-Reply-To: <632360.49323.qm@web90410.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <632360.49323.qm@web90410.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <b6e131bf0801141921g6413062cje01f087f84bb63ee@mail.gmail.com>

>  Kemper now:
>  See's and Whitman's are a C-, maybe a C.
>  For an A, checkout Moonstruck truffles:
>  http://www.moonstruckchocolate.com/MeetTheTruffles.aspx

Ali:
All right, Kemper, I'm in NYC this weekend, and Moonstruck's website
claims that Balducci's carry these chocolates.  I'm going to try to
get a few varieties, but I'm hoping they live up to this massive
pimping you've been doing, especially since I'm going to go to a few
of the chocolate places I've mentioned throughout this [delicious]
discussion.

wicked hot chocolate from Jacques Torres
Levain choco cookies
Vosges bars
yum...

Sadly, it's going to be a long week. :(



From marion11111 at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 15 03:28:06 2008
From: marion11111 at yahoo.com (marion11111)
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 03:28:06 -0000
Subject: Chocolate Search
In-Reply-To: <fmh5qu+gf37@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fmh986+ceq6@eGroups.com>


> Carol, who thought it was just her own tastebuds that made Hershey
> Bars taste like wax
>

marion11111 goes out on a limb:

OK, OK I'll just *say* it.  I like Hersheys.  I prefer milk chocolate and maybe it's nostalgia, 
but a Hershey bar is my idea of chocolate.  I like the skinniness or the bar and the snap.  I 
also like the slightly "off" taste.  I saw a TV special about chocolate and Hershey made his 
chocolate with soured milk.  That is the unique taste. I also like Dove which is as different 
as can be from Hershey.  

I like Godiva's truffles - especially if you can find a store that sells the ones with real 
liquor - but the chocolate all tastes like it has cherry in it to me.  I have to admit, I was 
enchanted when I saw Moonstruck chocolates in Macy's last Christmas and bought a 
bunch of the little mice and kittens and other cute shapes.  Maybe I got a stale batch, but 
they were the worst expensive chocolates I'd ever eaten.  They tasted like they had sand in 
them!  I've never had the bars - maybe they're better.

As far as European chocolates go, I'm not sure that we even get the real ones here in the 
states.  I know Cadbury's certainly tastes different in the UK.  I LOVE their Roses - such a 
fun box and so many good fillings and I don't generally like filled chocolates.  Long ago, I 
worked at a German import shop and Ritter Sport was my favorite.  Again, its the snap.  
IMO, a chocolate bar shouldn't bend.

But, really, if any chocolate is put in front of me, I'll eat it.  I'm not all that fussy.




From tonks_op at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 15 04:28:37 2008
From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks)
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 04:28:37 -0000
Subject: Chocolate Search
In-Reply-To: <fmh986+ceq6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fmhcpl+qb99@eGroups.com>

Now there is one place that I forgot to tell you all about. They don't 
make chocolate candy. They make fudge. But what fudge it is!!!

http://www.gethsemanifarms.org/fudge.asp

I can't eat anything with nuts and all of their fudge has nuts. And I 
also can't have anything with alcohol (a migraine thing) and well... 
you guessed it... all of their fudge has burbon. These are the Monks of 
the famious Gethsemani Abbey where Thomas Merton was a monk. I have 
visited there. It is very good fudge, but I can't eat much of it. I 
just suck the chocolate off of the nuts and take a nap. ;-(

Tonks_op




From kempermentor at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 15 04:36:04 2008
From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kemper mentor)
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 20:36:04 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Chocolate Search
Message-ID: <189081.10536.qm@web90409.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


 marion11111 goes out on a limb:

 
OK, OK I'll just *say* it.  I like Hersheys.  I prefer milk chocolate and maybe it's nostalgia, 

 but a Hershey bar is my idea of chocolate.  I like the skinniness or the bar and the snap.  ...
 

... I have to admit, I was 

 enchanted when I saw Moonstruck chocolates in Macy's last Christmas and bought a 

 bunch of the little mice and kittens and other cute shapes.  Maybe I got a stale batch, but 

 they were the worst expensive chocolates I'd ever eaten.  They tasted like they had sand in 

 them!  I've never had the bars - maybe they're better.

 

Kemper now:
Marion, I'm a bit torn.
I can understand liking Hershey's from a nostalgic point of view: growing up with it, experiencing happy memories.  
I hope that what you experienced was chocolate that wasn't taken care of while at Macy's as I don't think it was a stale batch.  
That said, if you genuinely like Hershey's even after tasting other brands of chocolate, then I have to question your chocolate tastes.  I mean no disrespect.  I like art but I can't tell the difference between Monet's and Manet's self portrait. 

On a side note to all in the thread, I prefer chocolate bars over truffles.  Except for Moonstruck's Chile Variado, I prefer my chocolate pure without the imperfections of fruits, nuts, cremes and liqueurs.

Kemper, who does admire marion's stepping out on limb :)




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From s_ings at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 15 04:58:51 2008
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 23:58:51 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Happy Birthday, Mike!
In-Reply-To: <fmgi5m+n9s8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <665853.68813.qm@web63415.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

> > Lee wrote:
> > I feel guilty, though, celebrating while our
> Birthday Elf is sick a-
> bed and
> > sleeping in the next room.  We should save her
> some cake.
> 
> 
> Potioncat:
> And I feel a little queasy drinking the punch---do
> you think she 
> breathed near it?
> 
> Happy birthday, Mike.
> 
> Get well soon, Birthday Elf. 
> Kathy

Sheryll:

Nope, definitely wasn't breathing near the punch.
Well, yeah, I was breathing near it. I kinda have to
breathe, you know. <vbg>

But I'm not that kind of sick. I have an inflammation
in the muscles in my neck. Very painful and unless I'm
pumped up with drugs I can't sleep unless I'm sitting
up. So I pretty much crawl into bed whenever the meds
are sufficiently kicked in. 

Besides, I needed the nap, I had to work tonight! I
always try to get in an afternoon power nap before an
evening shift.

So please, carry on with party!

Sheryll, replenishing drinks for anyone still up and
having fun :)

Join the fun at Convention Alley 2008



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From tonks_op at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 15 05:21:07 2008
From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks)
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 05:21:07 -0000
Subject: Chocolate Search
In-Reply-To: <189081.10536.qm@web90409.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <fmhfs3+k5at@eGroups.com>

> Kemper now:
> On a side note to all in the thread, I prefer chocolate bars over 
truffles.  Except for Moonstruck's Chile Variado, I prefer my chocolate 
pure without the imperfections of fruits, nuts, cremes and liqueurs.
> 

Tonks:

I am with you. I like pure chocolate too. Milk chocolate. I am not too 
fond of the filled ones, no matter what the brand. Except for the Lindt 
raspberry filled bars.

Tonks_op
who is on a new years diet... but getting up from the computer now and 
going into the kitchen for the last of the Christmas chocolate and a 
glass of milk. Be right back. ;-)




From n2fgc at arrl.net  Tue Jan 15 06:05:49 2008
From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Lee Storm(God Is The Healing Force))
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 01:05:49 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Chocolate Search
In-Reply-To: <fmh5qu+gf37@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000f01c8573c$adc3be40$67a4a8c0@FRODO>

[Carol]:
| But everyone seems to be talking about chocolate bars. What about
| filled chocolates, the kind that come in heart-shaped boxes on
| Valentine's Day. I happen to prefer milk chocolates with cream
| centers, but that's just me. Any particular American brands, such as
| See's or Whitman's, that anyone wants to recommend (or disparage)?
| 
| Carol, who thought it was just her own tastebuds that made Hershey
| Bars taste like wax

[Lee]:
<LOL!>  No, no, your tastel budses are in perfect working order. :-)

I found Russell Stover's (sp?) to be fairly decent.  Here in NJ, a local
place, Gertrude Hawks, seems to have some decent chocolate for those who
like milk chocolate.  I used to buy a ton of it for Easter gifts from one of
my co-workers years ago as a lot of the kids' fund-raisers get their
chocolate from there.  In fact, I will say that Gertrude made a decent
sugar-free chocolate & peanut butter confection, which, even though it was
milk chocolate, wasn't on my "Most Horrible" list. :-)

Personally, as far as filled chocolate, I like the filled Truffles kind.
There's one type that comes in great big balls, about three-quarters golf
ball size, and I don't know who makes them.  But the more I think of them,
they make me think of the "Choco-Balls" that Ron described as one of the
thing sold in Honeydukes.  They're individually wrapped and can come in a
large bag when bought in bulk.  I only saw them on two occasions when I
received them as gifts, so I don't know where to get them or, as I stated,
who maketh them.

Cheers,

Lee :-)

Do not walk behind me,    | Lee Storm
I may not care to lead;   | N2FGC
Do not walk before me,    | n2fgc at arrl.net (or)
I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at optonline.net
Walk beside me, and be my friend.





From gav_fiji at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 15 10:21:20 2008
From: gav_fiji at yahoo.com (Goddlefrood)
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 10:21:20 -0000
Subject: Happy Birthday, Mike!
In-Reply-To: <665853.68813.qm@web63415.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <fmi1f0+ldt9@eGroups.com>

> Sheryll:
> But I'm not that kind of sick. I have an inflammation
> in the muscles in my neck. Very painful and unless I'm
> pumped up with drugs I can't sleep unless I'm sitting
> up. So I pretty much crawl into bed whenever the meds
> are sufficiently kicked in. 

Goddlefrood:

I know that feeling, it's cold enough here to fry an egg on 
the pavement, which is the time when the old joints and muscles 
start aching. Get well soon and don't work too hard.

> Sheryll, replenishing drinks for anyone still up and
> having fun :)

Goddlefrood:

Happy birthday Mike. Thanks for the exemplary organisation 
Sheryll, I had a great time :-)

Goddlefrood, who is often awake at 4 in the afternoon.




From mcrudele78 at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 15 12:06:19 2008
From: mcrudele78 at yahoo.com (Mike)
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 12:06:19 -0000
Subject: Happy Birthday, Mike!
In-Reply-To: <fmh5bk+mefm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fmi7jr+23a7@eGroups.com>

WOW!! Thanks everyone for your well wishes. :D

This reminds me, how come the boys never give Hermione any presents
on her birthday? In fact, I don't even remember them wishing her a
Happy Birthday. Wassamatter wit dose guys?


> Magpie:  Something tells me you preside over great parties...

Back in the day, m'dear, back in the day. 


Mike, reminiscing about those 12 kegger house parties, 
"Ah yes, I remember it well."




From jnferr at gmail.com  Tue Jan 15 12:45:48 2008
From: jnferr at gmail.com (Janette)
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 06:45:48 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Chocolate Search
In-Reply-To: <000f01c8573c$adc3be40$67a4a8c0@FRODO>
References: <fmh5qu+gf37@eGroups.com> <000f01c8573c$adc3be40$67a4a8c0@FRODO>
Message-ID: <8ee758b40801150445n1527b8f6xcef1847fb1150a2@mail.gmail.com>

>
> [Carol]:
> | But everyone seems to be talking about chocolate bars. What about
> | filled chocolates, the kind that come in heart-shaped boxes on
> | Valentine's Day. I happen to prefer milk chocolates with cream
> | centers, but that's just me. Any particular American brands, such as
> | See's or Whitman's, that anyone wants to recommend (or disparage)?
> |
> | Carol, who thought it was just her own tastebuds that made Hershey
> | Bars taste like wax
>
> [Lee]:
> <LOL!>  No, no, your tastel budses are in perfect working order. :-)


montims:

Just to branch it out, so as not to keep getting at American chocolates -
Italians make the most gloriously elaborately decorated Easter eggs - huge,
and wrapped in wonderful coloured foils and paper and gorgeous.  Until you
unwrap them.  The chocolate is inedible...!

I do think it's what you're used to.  Cadbury's Dairy Milk advertises (or
used to) a pint and a half of milk in every bar;  most good European
chocolates are made with full cream.  This all gives a lovely creamy
flavour, and a quality that melts at body temperature (ie in the mouth).
American chocolates are not.  Marion suggests that Hersheys is made with
soured milk.  Other companies seem to use much worse
(artificial) ingredients.  I have found that Americans who have grown up
loving Hershey generally hate the feel of European chocolates in the mouth,
and Europeans hate the texture of American chocolate, and never the twain
shall meet.

To branch out, it is like trying to explain Cathedral City to someone who
has only eaten American cheddar - impossible in so many ways - and if you DO
manage to smuggle some over, and share some of your precious stash, to see
it spat out in disgust is very galling...


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From n2fgc at arrl.net  Tue Jan 15 16:18:08 2008
From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Lee Storm(God Is The Healing Force))
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 11:18:08 -0500
Subject: Prandial Conversations (was Re: Chocolate Search)
In-Reply-To: <8ee758b40801150445n1527b8f6xcef1847fb1150a2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000901c85792$386739f0$67a4a8c0@FRODO>

| montims:
| 
| I have found that Americans who 
| have grown up
| loving Hershey generally hate the feel of European chocolates 
| in the mouth,
| and Europeans hate the texture of American chocolate, and 
| never the twain
| shall meet.

[Lee]:
Well, you ain't experienced anything until you've tried Mexican chocolate.
I'm not sure of the make, but it's heavy, very granular, almost as though
there were undissolved cocoa or sugar in it.  It is the strangest texture
I've ever had.  It was also a most interesting taste and I'm diddled if I
can come up with a proper description.  (Of course, it was in 1987 when I
ate the stuff, so trying to recreate that taste memory is rough.)  In a
word, though, I would say it might have been made by an amateur.  :-)

[Montims]:
| To branch out, it is like trying to explain Cathedral City to 
| someone who
| has only eaten American cheddar - impossible in so many ways 
| - and if you DO
| manage to smuggle some over, and share some of your precious 
| stash, to see
| it spat out in disgust is very galling...

[Lee]:
I can relate. :-)  Rest assured that this little mouth would appreciate it
very much. :-)

What I want..what I would love is a wheel of real English Stilton.  It's
hard to find here locally, and it's very expensive when I can find it, so I
classify it as a rare treat.

Cheers,

Lee :-)

Do not walk behind me,    | Lee Storm
I may not care to lead;   | N2FGC
Do not walk before me,    | n2fgc at arrl.net (or)
I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at optonline.net
Walk beside me, and be my friend.





From anigrrrl2 at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 15 16:28:32 2008
From: anigrrrl2 at yahoo.com (Kathryn Lambert)
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 08:28:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Prandial Conversations (was Re: Chocolate Search)
In-Reply-To: <000901c85792$386739f0$67a4a8c0@FRODO>
Message-ID: <236826.71422.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

"Lee Storm(God Is The Healing Force)" <n2fgc at arrl.net> wrote:          | montims:
| 
| I have found that Americans who 
| have grown up
| loving Hershey generally hate the feel of European chocolates 
| in the mouth,
| and Europeans hate the texture of American chocolate, and 
| never the twain
| shall meet.

[Lee]:
Well, you ain't experienced anything until you've tried Mexican chocolate.
I'm not sure of the make, but it's heavy, very granular, almost as though
there were undissolved cocoa or sugar in it. It is the strangest texture
I've ever had. It was also a most interesting taste and I'm diddled if I
can come up with a proper description. (Of course, it was in 1987 when I
ate the stuff, so trying to recreate that taste memory is rough.) In a
word, though, I would say it might have been made by an amateur. :-)
   
  ***Katie: As a (sometimes ashamed to be...) American, I have to insert that not every American is raised on Hershey's chocolate and crappy cheddar cheese. I love European chocolate, both milk and dark, and I am a cheese fiend. I hate any kind of processed cheese, and I have been known to travel 50 miles or more for a good cheese shop...and then spend lavish amounts of money on the kind of cheddar that burns a hole through the tongue. I own books about cheese...and while in England, I always seek out the local cheesemonger to show me the promised land. 
   
  A cheese and chocolate loving American, Katie




  .

 
                         




       
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From minnesotatiffany at hotmail.com  Tue Jan 15 17:32:44 2008
From: minnesotatiffany at hotmail.com (Tiffany B. Clark)
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 17:32:44 -0000
Subject: Prandial Conversations (was Re: Chocolate Search)
In-Reply-To: <236826.71422.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <fmiqns+k726@eGroups.com>

> ***Katie:
>
> As a (sometimes ashamed to be...) American, I have to insert that 
not every American is raised on Hershey's chocolate and crappy 
cheddar cheese. I love European chocolate, both milk and dark, and I 
am a cheese fiend. I hate any kind of processed cheese, and I have 
been known to travel 50 miles or more for a good cheese shop...and 
then spend lavish amounts of money on the kind of cheddar that burns 
a hole through the tongue. I own books about cheese...and while in 
England, I always seek out the local cheesemonger to show me the 
promised land. 
    
A cheese and chocolate loving American, Katie

Tiffany:

When I took my vacation to Germany in 2005, I sampled a lot of the 
local cheeses there & German cheese is really good, esp. the Swiss 
they make.  I brought home 5 boxes of chocolates with me because of 
how good it was over there.  I was raised on American cheeses & 
chocolates, but I've also been used to European cheeses & chocolates 
for almost 10 years before I went there.




From maritajan at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 15 17:54:35 2008
From: maritajan at yahoo.com (MJ)
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 09:54:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Chocolate Search
Message-ID: <908429.63622.qm@web36815.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

You guys have made me crave chocolate so much, I had to go online and order Sponge Candy from Buffalo, NY.  We don't get that here in the south.



MJ - who's not a chocolate snob and is happy with American chocolate, and Swiss chocolate, and French chocolate, and any chocolate, actually.


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From macloudt at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Jan 15 18:38:49 2008
From: macloudt at yahoo.co.uk (Mary Ann Jennings)
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 18:38:49 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Happy Birthday, Mike!
Message-ID: <683732.53244.qm@web25809.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

Have a good one, Mike!  We're not just here for the
food and fortified butterbeer...honest!  *hic* ;)

Mary Ann, passing Sheryll a hot toddy




From n2fgc at arrl.net  Tue Jan 15 18:43:51 2008
From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Lee Storm(God Is The Healing Force))
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 13:43:51 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Chocolate Search
In-Reply-To: <908429.63622.qm@web36815.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000e01c857a6$92829c40$67a4a8c0@FRODO>

[MJ]:
| You guys have made me crave chocolate so much, I had to go 
| online and order Sponge Candy from Buffalo, NY.  We don't get 
| that here in the south.

[Lee]:
Never heard of that.  I have heard of Potato candy, but not Sponge candy.
Please enlighten.

Lee :-)

Do not walk behind me,    | Lee Storm
I may not care to lead;   | N2FGC
Do not walk before me,    | n2fgc at arrl.net (or)
I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at optonline.net
Walk beside me, and be my friend.





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 15 19:35:29 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 19:35:29 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 1/13/2008, 1:00 pm
In-Reply-To: <b6e131bf0801141904j241e6827o423f4d74f378d90e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <fmj1u1+aen3@eGroups.com>

> >  Carol, exiting Filch mode and OT Chatter for fear that you'll
think I've gone insane (Where's that wretched poltergeist? Peeves!!!)
> 
Ali:
> I think he probably went back into my work computer. All last week
(and today!!!), Word has been "not processing" some of the corrections
I've made to documents. Do you know how embarrassing it is to have
someone come back to you with a document you know you've edited and
have them say that you "missed" something?  

Carol responds:

Oh, yes. I know that feeling well. Nothing like having the boss hand
you back a blurb that you've carefully composed for a book on
nineteenth-century authors, saying, "I think you should read this one
more time." You say, "Okay," and discover that you've typed your
then-favorite author's name as "Merman Melville."

Carol, still blushing over that mistake, which happened ages ago, and
sure that it was somehow Word's fault--or Peeves's <eg>





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 15 19:41:19 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 19:41:19 -0000
Subject: Chocolate Search
In-Reply-To: <632360.49323.qm@web90410.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <fmj28v+gpt4@eGroups.com>

Carol earlier:
<snip> 
>  But everyone seems to be talking about chocolate bars. What about 
filled chocolates, the kind that come in heart-shaped boxes on 
Valentine's Day. I happen to prefer milk chocolates with cream  
centers, but that's just me. Any particular American brands, such as
> 
>  See's or Whitman's, that anyone wants to recommend (or disparage)?
 
Kemper responde:
> See's and Whitman's are a C-, maybe a C.
> For an A, checkout Moonstruck truffles:
> http://www.moonstruckchocolate.com/MeetTheTruffles.aspx
> 
> Kemper, hoping he gets a Chile Variado chocolate bar for pimpin'
Moonstruck so vigorously

Carol responds:

I'm sure you'll think that I'm a philistine for saying so, but I don't
care for truffles--too big and too strong-flavored. I got some Harry
and David truffles for Christmas, along with the world's most luscious
pears, scrumptious smoked salmon, and other delicacies. They didn't
thrill me, somehow.

Carol, who is thinking along the lines of a Whitman's Sampler, not
truffles




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 15 19:44:14 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 19:44:14 -0000
Subject: HP & DH Movie
In-Reply-To: <804101.45017.qm@web60720.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <fmj2ee+s1cc@eGroups.com>

danielle dassero wrote:
>
> I know Steve Kloves has been confrimed that he will write teh 7th
screenplay, however he can't start work till the writers strike is
cleared up. <snip>

Carol responds:

Anyone besides me think that the writers' strike has gotten out of
hand, hurting more people than it's helping and that it's time to settle?

Carol, who would resent being unable to work just because others were
demanding higher wages (surely there's a better way to negotiate)




From maritajan at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 15 19:46:46 2008
From: maritajan at yahoo.com (MJ)
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 11:46:46 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Chocolate Search
Message-ID: <66981.11052.qm@web36807.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

It's kind of hard to describe.  They're smallish, rectangular bars, with an outside of milk or dark chocolate and an interior that crunches and then melts in your mouth.  Maybe like a crunchy Three Musketeers?  No, that sounds gross.  The inside is a very light, carmelized sugar/maple/something.  

I'm not doing this very well, am I?   As far as I know, it's only sold in the Buffalo, NY and surrounding areas and only in the winter, because warmer temperatures affect the candy.  I was introduced to it by a coworker from Buffalo, who brought some back with her after a visit home.  It really is wonderful, though, especially the dark chocolate outside/orange flavor inside.  

I'm sorry for the weak description; I didn't do justice to how good that candy is.


MJ




 



----- Original Message ----
From: Lee Storm(God Is The Healing Force) <n2fgc at arrl.net>
To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 12:43:51 PM
Subject: RE: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Chocolate Search

[MJ]:
| You guys have made me crave chocolate so much, I had to go 
| online and order Sponge Candy from Buffalo, NY. We don't get 
| that here in the south.

[Lee]:
Never heard of that. I have heard of Potato candy, but not Sponge candy.
Please enlighten.

Lee :-)

Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm
I may not care to lead; | N2FGC
Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at arrl.net (or)
I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at optonline. net
Walk beside me, and be my friend.





      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better friend, newshound, and 
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.  http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From kempermentor at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 15 20:08:39 2008
From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kemper mentor)
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 12:08:39 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Chocolate Search
Message-ID: <87004.57844.qm@web90407.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


Kemper earlier:

 > See's and Whitman's are a C-, maybe a C.

 > For an A, checkout Moonstruck truffles:

 > http://www.moonstru ckchocolate. com/MeetTheTruff les.aspx

 > 

 > Kemper, hoping he gets a Chile Variado chocolate bar for pimpin'

 Moonstruck so vigorously

 

 Carol responded:

 
I'm sure you'll think that I'm a philistine for saying so, but I don't

 care for truffles--too big and too strong-flavored. 

Kemper now:
 
Up- or across- thread I wrote that I prefer my chocolate pure, without the imperfections of fruit, nuts, cremes and liqueurs.  Except for Moonstruck's Chile Variado chocolate /bar/.  The heat is infused with the chocolate so that the smooth and warmth fills the mouth and throat.  
Again, to quote Fenrir: Delicious, delicious.

Kemper





      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better friend, newshound, and 
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.  http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ 




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 15 20:10:05 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 20:10:05 -0000
Subject: Prandial Conversations (was Re: Chocolate Search)
In-Reply-To: <fmiqns+k726@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fmj3ut+2r9v@eGroups.com>

Katie wrote:
> >
> > <snip>
> not every American is raised on Hershey's chocolate and crappy 
> cheddar cheese. <snip> I hate any kind of processed cheese, and I have 
> been known to travel 50 miles or more for a good cheese shop <snip>
 
Carol responds:

The stuff that Kraft labels "American cheese" isn't even cheese, nor
is Velveeta, which is (IMO) even fouler. I'm not sure that they're
labeled "cheddar"; if they are, they shouldn't be. Processed cheese is
an abomination and should not be inflicted on anyone.

I'm not sure where the cheese I like comes from, other than the
grocery store <wink>, but I generally buy longhorn cheddar or colby
(occasionally, mozzarella), the kind of mild cheeses that make lovely,
stringy grilled cheese sandwiches (or lasagna, if I'm in the mood for  
actual cooking, which rarely happens these days).

Carol, who wouldn't travel fifty miles just to buy cheese but would
never, ever, ever eat or buy the processed stuff that masquerades as
American "cheese"




From jnferr at gmail.com  Tue Jan 15 20:11:09 2008
From: jnferr at gmail.com (Janette)
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 14:11:09 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Chocolate Search
In-Reply-To: <66981.11052.qm@web36807.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <66981.11052.qm@web36807.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8ee758b40801151211x23b4f481sf12dd5d8ea56c4d3@mail.gmail.com>

On Jan 15, 2008 1:46 PM, MJ <maritajan at yahoo.com> wrote:

> It's kind of hard to describe.  They're smallish, rectangular bars, with
> an outside of milk or dark chocolate and an interior that crunches and then
> melts in your mouth.  Maybe like a crunchy Three Musketeers?  No, that
> sounds gross.  The inside is a very light, carmelized sugar/maple/something.
>
> I'm not doing this very well, am I?   As far as I know, it's only sold in
> the Buffalo, NY and surrounding areas and only in the winter, because warmer
> temperatures affect the candy.  I was introduced to it by a coworker from
> Buffalo, who brought some back with her after a visit home.  It really is
> wonderful, though, especially the dark chocolate outside/orange flavor
> inside.


montims:

Sounds like a Crunchie Bar!
http://www.cadbury.co.uk/en/ctb2003/product_info/crunchie.htm


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From kempermentor at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 15 20:14:48 2008
From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kemper mentor)
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 12:14:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: HP & DH Movie
Message-ID: <647462.64854.qm@web90403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


 Carol:

 

 Anyone besides me think that the writers' strike has gotten out of

 hand, hurting more people than it's helping and that it's time to settle?

 

 Carol, who would resent being unable to work just because others were

 demanding higher wages (surely there's a better way to negotiate)

 


Kemper now:
They aren't asking for higher wages.  They are asking for the fair compensation from their work that is sold/distributed through other mediums.  The producers receive the profit from all the mediums.  Why shouldn't the writer's get their due?

Kemper




      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Looking for last minute shopping deals?  
Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.  http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping



From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 15 20:16:10 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 20:16:10 -0000
Subject: What's up with Google?
Message-ID: <fmj4aa+a04s@eGroups.com>

Is anyone besides me having trouble with Google, specifically,
iGoogle, today? My iGoogle homepage wouldn't load properly with any
browser, and emptying the cache, restarting the computer, and all the
other suggestions offered in the Help menu didn't work. I even started
the page from scratch with new content, and it just went away; now all
I get is a blank white page when I go to iGoogle. The only thing that
works is logging off, which allows me to do a normal Google search.
But I put all that content (weather, headlines, Babelfish) on my
homepage for a reason.

Carol, who thinks that the same poltergeists who are messing with the
apostrophes in her latest editing project are now advancing on Google
and waiting for Yahoo to start acting up as well




From minnesotatiffany at hotmail.com  Tue Jan 15 20:23:47 2008
From: minnesotatiffany at hotmail.com (Tiffany B. Clark)
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 20:23:47 -0000
Subject: What's up with Google?
In-Reply-To: <fmj4aa+a04s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fmj4oj+im5t@eGroups.com>

> Carol:
>
> Is anyone besides me having trouble with Google, specifically,
iGoogle, today? My iGoogle homepage wouldn't load properly with any
browser, and emptying the cache, restarting the computer, and all the
ther suggestions offered in the Help menu didn't work. I even started
the page from scratch with new content, and it just went away; now all
I get is a blank white page when I go to iGoogle. The only thing that
works is logging off, which allows me to do a normal Google search.
But I put all that content (weather, headlines, Babelfish) on my
homepage for a reason.
 
Carol, who thinks that the same poltergeists who are messing with the
apostrophes in her latest editing project are now advancing on Google
and waiting for Yahoo to start acting up as well

Tiffany:

I don't have iGooogle, but the Google Web Search & Google Earth are 
all okay on my end.  I don't visit their homepage too often, but have 
heard that the homepage is loading slower than normal.  No ideas on 
either the groups or mail because I don't have them & haven't heard 
about them from others I know of.




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 15 20:25:40 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 20:25:40 -0000
Subject: HP & DH Movie
In-Reply-To: <647462.64854.qm@web90403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <fmj4s4+hdcc@eGroups.com>

Carol:
>  Anyone besides me think that the writers' strike has gotten out of
 hand, hurting more people than it's helping and that it's time to settle?
> 
>  
> 
>  Carol, who would resent being unable to work just because others
were demanding higher wages (surely there's a better way to negotiate)
> 
>  
> 
> 
> Kemper now:
> They aren't asking for higher wages.  They are asking for the fair
compensation from their work that is sold/distributed through other
mediums.  The producers receive the profit from all the mediums.  Why
shouldn't the writer's get their due?

Carol responds:

I'm not saying that the writers shouldn't get their due, only that
they are keeping others from working--actors, directors, film crews.
Even the caterers and hairstylists suffered as a result of the
writers' strike causing the Golden Globes to be a nonevent. And the
writers themselves can't even write. They're being controlled by the
union. How fair is that? Strikes that interfere with everyday life,
such as teachers' strikes or public transportation strikes, are
generally short. When I was in England, the transportation workers
arranged a strike in advance, announcing to the public when it would
be held so that commuters could make other arrangements on that day.
The writers' strike, however, is going on and on, with no end in
sight, regardless of how many people, including the writers
themselves, are suffering as a result.

Enough is enough. It's time, IMO, to negotiate.

Carol, who can live with reruns on television and delayed movie
production but wonders how the people more directly affected by the
strike feel about it




From kempermentor at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 15 20:26:28 2008
From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kemper mentor)
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 12:26:28 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] What's up with Google?
Message-ID: <650819.56399.qm@web90404.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


                               Is anyone besides me having trouble with Google, specifically,

 iGoogle, today? My iGoogle homepage wouldn't load properly with any

 browser, and emptying the cache, restarting the computer, and all the

 other suggestions offered in the Help menu didn't work. I even started

 the page from scratch with new content, and it just went away; now all

 I get is a blank white page when I go to iGoogle. The only thing that

 works is logging off, which allows me to do a normal Google search.

 But I put all that content (weather, headlines, Babelfish) on my

 homepage for a reason.

 

Kemper now:
Mine is working great!
But mine is chess focused...maybe it's from the weather, headlines or Babelfish

Kemper




      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page. 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs



From amlygo at cox.net  Tue Jan 15 20:27:19 2008
From: amlygo at cox.net (Amy Gourley)
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 15:27:19 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] What's up with Google?
References: <fmj4aa+a04s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <001b01c857b5$06fa1950$6501a8c0@amynq6mzdn8bgx>

I haven't been able to bring up Google search today. I thought it was just my computer. I haven't been able to bring up cnn.com either. Strange.

Amy

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 15 20:31:29 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 20:31:29 -0000
Subject: What's up with Google?
In-Reply-To: <650819.56399.qm@web90404.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <fmj571+phqh@eGroups.com>

Carol earlier:
>  Is anyone besides me having trouble with Google, specifically, 
iGoogle, today? My iGoogle homepage wouldn't load properly with any 
browser, and emptying the cache, restarting the computer, and all the
 other suggestions offered in the Help menu didn't work. I even
started  the page from scratch with new content, and it just went
away; now all  I get is a blank white page when I go to iGoogle. The
only thing that  works is logging off, which allows me to do a normal
Google search.
> 
>  But I put all that content (weather, headlines, Babelfish) on my 
homepage for a reason.
> 
>  
> 
> Kemper responded:
> Mine is working great!
> But mine is chess focused...maybe it's from the weather, headlines
or Babelfish

Carol responds:

Well, bummer! Sounds like the problem is with my computer. As I said,
I can access Google search and the generic iGoogle page when I'm
signed out, but I sign in and it all disappears.

Suggestions, anyone?

Carol, off to run Ad-Aware to see if that solves the problem




From anigrrrl2 at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 15 20:33:31 2008
From: anigrrrl2 at yahoo.com (Kathryn Lambert)
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 12:33:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Prandial Conversations (was Re: Chocolate Search)
In-Reply-To: <fmj3ut+2r9v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <205882.53626.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Carol <justcarol67 at yahoo.com> wrote:          Katie wrote:
> >
> > <snip>
> not every American is raised on Hershey's chocolate and crappy 
> cheddar cheese. <snip> I hate any kind of processed cheese, and I have 
> been known to travel 50 miles or more for a good cheese shop <snip>

Carol responds:

The stuff that Kraft labels "American cheese" isn't even cheese, nor
is Velveeta, which is (IMO) even fouler. I'm not sure that they're
labeled "cheddar"; if they are, they shouldn't be. Processed cheese is
an abomination and should not be inflicted on anyone.

I'm not sure where the cheese I like comes from, other than the
grocery store <wink>, but I generally buy longhorn cheddar or colby
(occasionally, mozzarella), the kind of mild cheeses that make lovely,
stringy grilled cheese sandwiches (or lasagna, if I'm in the mood for 
actual cooking, which rarely happens these days).

Carol, who wouldn't travel fifty miles just to buy cheese but would
never, ever, ever eat or buy the processed stuff that masquerades as
American "cheese"


  ***Katie: My favorite is the stuff that's actually called "processed cheese food". YUCK. I mean, it's actually CALLED processed - who wants that?
   
  I like a good colby, too. I also like a 9 year old or more cheddar, a good Stilton, sharp and tangy feta or goat cheese, a well done smoked gouda, fresh mozzarella, Robusto (which is like a cross between sharp cheddar and parmaesan, and I LOVE Cheshire cheese (which is very hard to find in the states, except at specialty shops)...I could go on, but I'll stop. I do love my cheeses, though. 
   
  I also enjoy a great grilled cheese  -  especially mozzarella, fresh basil leaves, and tomato. Yum. 
   
  I have a fantastic cheese pie recipe which I will post when I get home. It's from a medieval English recipe. Very simple, and always a hit. 
   
  Katie


  .

 
                         




       
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 15 20:43:36 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 20:43:36 -0000
Subject: What's up with Google?
In-Reply-To: <001b01c857b5$06fa1950$6501a8c0@amynq6mzdn8bgx>
Message-ID: <fmj5to+53a8@eGroups.com>

Amy Gourley wrote:
>
> I haven't been able to bring up Google search today. I thought it
was just my computer. I haven't been able to bring up cnn.com either.
Strange.
> 
Carol responds:

Whew! That's encouraging. Try signing out. I still can't access my own
content (which I probably destroyed trying to redo the page), but at
least I can conduct the various Google searches that way.

Carol, *very* glad to know it's not just her computer




From kempermentor at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 15 20:48:53 2008
From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kemper mentor)
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 12:48:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: HP & DH Movie
Message-ID: <411106.95196.qm@web90415.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


 > Kemper earlier:

 > They aren't asking for higher wages.  They are asking for the fair

 compensation from their work that is sold/distributed through other

 mediums.  The producers receive the profit from all the mediums.  Why

 shouldn't the writer's get their due?

 

 Carol responded:

 
I'm not saying that the writers shouldn't get their due, only that

 they are keeping others from working--actors, directors, film crews.


Kemper now:
You are suggesting that fault lies with the WGA.  Why is it not the producers who are keeping others from work?


Carol cont.:
Even the caterers and hairstylists suffered as a result of the

 writers' strike causing the Golden Globes to be a nonevent. And the

 writers themselves can't even write. They're being controlled by the

 union. How fair is that? 

Kemper now:
The union fights for the creative rights of the writers.
Writers can break the picket lines if they choose.  As they haven't, it suggests they are choosing to stand up for what they feel is fair and right.


Carol cont.:
 ...The writers' strike, however, is going on and on, with no end in

 sight, regardless of how many people, including the writers

 themselves, are suffering as a result.

 

 Enough is enough. It's time, IMO, to negotiate.

 

Kemper now:
Rights and freedoms are never given freely without a fight of some kind.

Kemper




      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better friend, newshound, and 
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.  http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ 




From alexisnguyen at gmail.com  Tue Jan 15 21:07:06 2008
From: alexisnguyen at gmail.com (P. Alexis Nguyen)
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 16:07:06 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: HP & DH Movi
In-Reply-To: <411106.95196.qm@web90415.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <411106.95196.qm@web90415.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <b6e131bf0801151307x568671afj5343cf92c1eb6e5b@mail.gmail.com>

> Kemper now:
> The union fights for the creative rights of the writers.
> Writers can break the picket lines if they choose. As they haven't, it suggests they are choosing to stand up for what they feel is fair and right.
>

Ali:
Crossing that line in Hollywood would be career suicide.  Yes, the
writers should stand up for their rights and demand their [very fair]
share of the profits.  However, I don't think that it's far to say
that everyone who isn't crossing the picket line is necessarily doing
it as a matter of belief.  Moreover, it's also not fair to say that
those who have "crossed" the picket line do it out of disrespect.
Shows like Letterman have come back on air and have had to explain the
reasons why they had to do what they did - in cases like Letterman, it
was a combo of network pressures and the need to keep the rest of the
staff paid and not fired.



> Kemper now:
> Rights and freedoms are never given freely without a fight of some kind.

Ali:
I agree with this in theory, but in practice, you have to pick your
battles and know when to fight them.  In the midst of reality tv being
ever so popular, is now really the right time for a strike?  How much
are they asking for, and is that reasonable under the circumstances?
Is there no temporary solution that can be arrived at so that not so
many in the industry are affected?  How do you deal with folks who
appear on tv and write their own materials?  There are million
questions.  (As a note for Carol, though, negotiations have been going
on, but the studios are saying the writers are asking for too much and
vice versa.  It's the standard union-business problem.)

~Ali, who has always supported unions but really don't like the Philly Teamsters



From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 15 21:42:21 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 21:42:21 -0000
Subject: HP & DH Movie
In-Reply-To: <411106.95196.qm@web90415.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <fmj9bt+qc1r@eGroups.com>

Kemper:
> Rights and freedoms are never given freely without a fight of some kind.

Carol responds:

Whatever happened to compromise and "my rights end where yours begin"?
And negotiation means that *both* parties have to talk. I'm not asking
the WGA to do it alone. (And what writer dares to keep writing and be
regarded as a strike-breaker? He'd be a pariah when the strike was over.)

If Peter Jackson can come to terms with New Line, the writers can come
to terms with the producers--even if it takes pressure from other
businesses, such as hotels and caterers, to force them into it.

Carol, still hoping for an end to the strike for all concerned, with
the best interests of everyone prevailing over self-interest (and I'm
talking about both sides here)






From kempermentor at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 15 23:02:22 2008
From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kemper mentor)
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 15:02:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: HP & DH Movi
Message-ID: <40510.80247.qm@web90415.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


                               > Kemper earlier:

 > The union fights for the creative rights of the writers.

 > Writers can break the picket lines if they choose. As they haven't, it suggests they are choosing to stand up for what they feel is fair and right.

 >

 

 Ali:

 Crossing that line in Hollywood would be career suicide.  Yes, the

 writers should stand up for their rights and demand their [very fair]

 share of the profits.  However, I don't think that it's far to say

 that everyone who isn't crossing the picket line is necessarily doing

 it as a matter of belief.  

Kemper now:
The writer does not have to write at the studio.  They can cross lines clandestinely from home or a cafe.
It may be suicide if the Writer's Guild discovers the treachery, but that's the choice the writer needs to make.



Ali:
Moreover, it's also not fair to say that

 those who have "crossed" the picket line do it out of disrespect.

 Shows like Letterman have come back on air and have had to explain the

 reasons why they had to do what they did - in cases like Letterman, it

 was a combo of network pressures and the need to keep the rest of the

 staff paid and not fired.

 


Kemper now:
Letterman is the owner/producer of Late Night with David Letterman.  He, as an owner/producer made a deal with the Guild.

Leno, O'Brien, Stewart and Colbert (in 'O8!) do not own their shows and were required to come back.  They write for themselves which is allowed.  No one writes for them, which is not allowed during the strike.

So, it was not network pressure of CBS that got the writers back, it was David Letterman owner/producer of the show and also a writer.


> Kemper earlier:

 > Rights and freedoms are never given freely without a fight of some kind.

 

 Ali:

 I agree with this in theory, but in practice, you have to pick your

 battles and know when to fight them.  In the midst of reality tv being

 ever so popular, is now really the right time for a strike?  

Kemper now:
Yes.  You must choose your battles.
Reality tv is popular because there is something wrong with our (US) culture.
It is not the writer's fault.  Nor is it the producers.  They want to make money.  Who doesn't?

Ali:
How much

 are they asking for, and is that reasonable under the circumstances?


Kemper now:
>From what I understand, I think so.  From about $0.04/DVD sold to about $0.08
They currently get nothing from iTune sales and from streamed shows.

You can buy an episode of The Office on iTunes for cheap but the writer sees none of it.
You can stream The Office for free but it has paid advertisement, the writer sees none of it.

Ali:
 Is there no temporary solution that can be arrived at so that not so

 many in the industry are affected?  

Kemper now:
I'm sure there is, but I don't know what it is.

Ali:
How do you deal with folks who

 appear on tv and write their own materials?  

Kemper now:
My understanding is that is cool (see Leno, O'Brien, Stewart and Colbert (in '08!).

Kemper




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From pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no  Tue Jan 15 23:07:04 2008
From: pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no (=?iso-8859-1?q?Christian_Stub=F8?=)
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 23:07:04 -0000
Subject: Chocolate Search
In-Reply-To: <66981.11052.qm@web36807.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <fmjeao+kias@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter, MJ wrote:
>
> It's kind of hard to describe.  They're smallish,
> rectangular bars, with an outside of milk or dark
> chocolate and an interior that crunches and then
> melts in your mouth.  Maybe like a crunchy Three
> Musketeers?  No, that sounds gross.  The inside
> is a very light, carmelized sugar/maple/something.  
> 
> I'm not doing this very well, am I?   As far as I
> know, it's only sold in the Buffalo, NY and
> surrounding areas and only in the winter, because
> warmer temperatures affect the candy.  I was
> introduced to it by a coworker from Buffalo, who
> brought some back with her after a visit home. 
> It really is wonderful, though, especially the
> dark chocolate outside/orange flavor inside.  

I think this perhaps is what you're talking about, except that the 
chocolate coating doesn't seem to be mentioned:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sponge_toffee

Best regards
Christian Stub?
Currently celebrating Half-Price-on-Chocolate-and-Marzipan-After-
Christmas




From zanelupin at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 15 23:58:55 2008
From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (KathyK)
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 23:58:55 -0000
Subject: Chocolate Search
In-Reply-To: <8ee758b40801151211x23b4f481sf12dd5d8ea56c4d3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <fmjhbv+thau@eGroups.com>

montims:
> 
> Sounds like a Crunchie Bar!
> http://www.cadbury.co.uk/en/ctb2003/product_info/crunchie.htm

KathyK:

Crunchies are pretty much my favorite thing ever!  I was so happy when
my local Stop & Shops began stocking them.




From s_ings at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 16 00:13:13 2008
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 19:13:13 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Happy Birthday, Heidi!
Message-ID: <653764.37001.qm@web63414.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

*putters about, clearing out the mess from yesterday's
party and tidying up the decorations, adding many
touches of pink*

You know, you guys really made a mess of this party
room! Heidi, sorry for the delay, but you won't
believe what this room looked like when I got here.
*sigh*

Today's birthday honouree is Heidi. Birthday owls can
be sent care of this list or directly to:
heidi8 at gmail.com

*brings in cocktails, nibblies and a molten chocolate
cake*

Hey, hands off! The cake is for Heidi!

I hope your day has been filled with fun, magic and
lots of Lush goodness. :)

Happy Birthday, Heidi!

Sheryll the Birthday Elf (and fellow Lush addict)

Join the fun at Convention Alley 2008



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From heidi8 at gmail.com  Wed Jan 16 00:16:11 2008
From: heidi8 at gmail.com (Heidi Tandy)
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 19:16:11 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Happy Birthday, Heidi!
In-Reply-To: <653764.37001.qm@web63414.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
References: <653764.37001.qm@web63414.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1200442574.29EFFC44@bf11.dngr.org>


On Tue, 15 Jan 2008 4:13 pm, Sheryll Townsend wrote:
> *brings in cocktails, nibblies and a molten chocolate
> cake*
>
> Hey, hands off! The cake is for Heidi!


Molten chocolate cake?
Oh, Sheryll! Thank you so much for remembering!

(Explanation: three years ago, I wanted molten chocolate cake for my 
birthday. I really wanted it *and* I was 6+ months pregnant. I couldn't 
find it *anywhere* that night or, in fact, for the rest of the year. We 
really tried. Finally, new year's eve, success - they had it where we 
went for dinner. So now it's my birthday "goal" to have some during my 
birthday week, and to get it today, even virtually, amid all this lovely 
talk of chocolate?

Squee.)



From s_ings at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 16 00:23:37 2008
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 19:23:37 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Happy Birthday, Heidi!
In-Reply-To: <1200442574.29EFFC44@bf11.dngr.org>
Message-ID: <121935.64713.qm@web63415.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

> On Tue, 15 Jan 2008 4:13 pm, Sheryll Townsend wrote:
> > *brings in cocktails, nibblies and a molten
> chocolate
> > cake*
> >
> > Hey, hands off! The cake is for Heidi!
> 
> 
> Molten chocolate cake?
> Oh, Sheryll! Thank you so much for remembering!
> 
> (Explanation: three years ago, I wanted molten
> chocolate cake for my 
> birthday. I really wanted it *and* I was 6+ months
> pregnant. I couldn't 
> find it *anywhere* that night or, in fact, for the
> rest of the year. We 
> really tried. Finally, new year's eve, success -
> they had it where we 
> went for dinner. So now it's my birthday "goal" to
> have some during my 
> birthday week, and to get it today, even virtually,
> amid all this lovely 
> talk of chocolate?
> 
> Squee.)
> 
Sheryll again:

Of course I remembered! 

If you don't find any, come on up here. There's an
awesome new restaurant in town that serves it. I had
some in the fall when we went out for an anniversary
dinner for friends. 

Our major grocery store chain sells little molten
chocolates cakes in the frozen food section. 15
minutes in the oven and oh, so yummy. :D

Sheryll, willing to hook Heidi up with chocolate cake
when necessary

Join the fun at Convention Alley 2008



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From drdara at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 16 00:28:51 2008
From: drdara at yahoo.com (danielle dassero)
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 16:28:51 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] What's up with Google?
Message-ID: <222094.64302.qm@web60717.mail.yahoo.com>

I've been having issues with google email on and off for days now :(
Danielle


----- Original Message ----
From: Carol <justcarol67 at yahoo.com>
To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 1:16:10 PM
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] What's up with Google?

Is anyone besides me having trouble with Google, specifically,
iGoogle, today? My iGoogle homepage wouldn't load properly with any
browser, and emptying the cache, restarting the computer, and all the
other suggestions offered in the Help menu didn't work. I even started
the page from scratch with new content, and it just went away; now all
I get is a blank white page when I go to iGoogle. The only thing that
works is logging off, which allows me to do a normal Google search.
But I put all that content (weather, headlines, Babelfish) on my
homepage for a reason.

Carol, who thinks that the same poltergeists who are messing with the
apostrophes in her latest editing project are now advancing on Google
and waiting for Yahoo to start acting up as well





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From n2fgc at arrl.net  Wed Jan 16 00:31:09 2008
From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Lee Storm(God Is The Healing Force))
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 19:31:09 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Happy Birthday, Heidi!
In-Reply-To: <653764.37001.qm@web63414.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <001201c857d7$175a2cf0$67a4a8c0@FRODO>

[Sheryll]:
| *brings in cocktails, nibblies and a molten chocolate
| cake*
| 
| Hey, hands off! The cake is for Heidi!

[Lee]:
Yeah--well--uh...
*Lee licks finger*
Heidi will cut the cake and share.... Uh--won't ya? :-)

Happy B-Day!  <Lee raises her glass of pumpkin juice.>

Cheers,

Lee :-)

Do not walk behind me,    | Lee Storm
I may not care to lead;   | N2FGC
Do not walk before me,    | n2fgc at arrl.net (or)
I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at optonline.net
Walk beside me, and be my friend.





From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 16 01:53:58 2008
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 01:53:58 -0000
Subject: HP & DH Movie
In-Reply-To: <fmj4s4+hdcc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fmjo3m+ropm@eGroups.com>

---  "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:
>
> Carol:
> > Anyone besides me think that the writers' strike has gotten
> > out of hand, hurting more people than it's helping and that
> > it's time to settle?
> >  
> > 
> >  Carol, who would resent being unable to work just because
> > others were demanding higher wages (surely there's a better
> > way to negotiate)
> > 
> > 
> > Kemper now:
> > They aren't asking for higher wages.  They are asking for 
> > the fair compensation from their work that is 
> > sold/distributed through other mediums.  The producers 
> > receive the profit from all the mediums.  Why shouldn't 
> > the writer's get their due?
> 
> Carol responds:
> 
> I'm not saying that the writers shouldn't get their due, only
> that they are keeping others from working--actors, directors,
> film crews. Even the caterers and hairstylists suffered ...
> Strikes that interfere with everyday life, ...

bboyminn:

And that is what strikes are suppose to do. I and most people
who speak up on TV agree that the writers demands are fair
and reasonable. The 'owners/networks/studio' big argument is
that there is no secondary revenue for sources such as Internet
and consequently the writers are asking for money that doesn't
exist. If that's true, it seems to me a reason to settle, not
a reason to delay. If the studios settle, they are essentially,
by their own logic, agreeing to pay zero money to keep the
writers happy. If you could settle a strike by agreeing to pay
zero money, wouldn't you do it?????

I think the real problem is not the Internet revenue that
allegedly doesn't exist, but how do they determine and more
importantly CONFIRM how much revenue is being generated. In
a sense, the writes are asking for some independent means of
verifying this revenue, and the Studios are saying, no you 
can't by any means at all look at our books.

One small studio problem, actually more like a trick, it to
promise actors a percentage of net revenue for a movie, but
no actor has ever earned a cent on NET revenue because the
producers make sure that all revenue is consumed, thereby
leaving no net revenue. 'Titanic' and 'Lord of the Ring' don't 
have any NET revenue despite being a couple of the most
successful movies of all time. Smart actors go for a 
percentage of the GROSS revenue.

My point is that the accounting practices of the studios are
very suspect. For writers to derive revenue from secondary
sources, someone has to be able to accurately account for 
those secondary sources, and that is the big sticking point.

> Carol:
>
> The writers' strike, however, is going on and on, with no end in
> sight, regardless of how many people, including the writers
> themselves, are suffering as a result.
> 
> Enough is enough. It's time, IMO, to negotiate.

bboyminn:

Keep in mind that it is the studios who are refusing to 
negotiate, not the writers. Yes, the strike needs to be settled,
but not by the writers going back to work, but by the studios
making an honest good faith effort to resolve the problem.

Steve/bboyminn




From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Wed Jan 16 04:25:03 2008
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 04:25:03 -0000
Subject: HP & DH Movi
In-Reply-To: <40510.80247.qm@web90415.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <fmk0uv+jioe@eGroups.com>

> Ali:
> How much
> 
>  are they asking for, and is that reasonable under the 
circumstances?
> 
> 
> Kemper now:
> From what I understand, I think so.  From about $0.04/DVD sold to 
about $0.08
> They currently get nothing from iTune sales and from streamed shows.
> 
> You can buy an episode of The Office on iTunes for cheap but the 
writer sees none of it.
> You can stream The Office for free but it has paid advertisement, 
the writer sees none of it.

Magpie:
I think it's reasonable too! And the writers getting a good deal will 
I think pave the way for the actors guilds who have the same fears.

This strike seems hugely important to me and if I was going to get 
impatient and want it to end my instinct would first be to lean more 
towards wanting the people opposing the writers to be more generous 
rather than the writers first. The people who do stuff like get the 
writers to write what amounts to short episodes on the web, but call 
them "promotions" so that they don't have to pay them for the episode 
they just wrote. I just don't picture them as standing their with 
their empty pockets turned out because they've got nothing left while 
the writers demand more.

I'm not surprised this is a long-running strength. The Internet 
changes everything and it's going to take a while to work this stuff 
out in some fair way, and of course the people who now control the 
money are going to try to keep as much for themselves as they can, 
and the writers (and later the actors) are going to try to get as 
much as they can for their people. Of course I hope it ends soon, not 
just for my entertainment, but so all the people who depend on 
production for work can make their money too, but that's just as much 
a reason to want the other side to offer more than for the writers to 
demand less. 

-m




From predigirl1 at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 16 04:31:17 2008
From: predigirl1 at yahoo.com (Alex Hogan)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 04:31:17 -0000
Subject: DH in two movies!
Message-ID: <fmk1al+hel1@eGroups.com>

I hear today that when they get to DH it will be divided into two 
movies! About time! They should have done it with GOF.

Alex Hogan




From zanelupin at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 16 04:58:40 2008
From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (KathyK)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 04:58:40 -0000
Subject: Happy Birthday, Heidi!
In-Reply-To: <653764.37001.qm@web63414.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <fmk2u0+2tib@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Sheryll Townsend <s_ings at ...>
wrote:

> Happy Birthday, Heidi!
> 


KathyK:

Yes, Happy Birthday!




From alexisnguyen at gmail.com  Wed Jan 16 05:43:42 2008
From: alexisnguyen at gmail.com (P. Alexis Nguyen)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 00:43:42 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: HP & DH Movi
In-Reply-To: <fmk0uv+jioe@eGroups.com>
References: <40510.80247.qm@web90415.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	 <fmk0uv+jioe@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b6e131bf0801152143x6693ff97n56a6d7b382f45637@mail.gmail.com>

Magpie:
>  I think it's reasonable too! And the writers getting a good deal will
>  I think pave the way for the actors guilds who have the same fears.
>>> SNIP <<<
>  I'm not surprised this is a long-running strength. The Internet
>  changes everything and it's going to take a while to work this stuff
>  out in some fair way, and of course the people who now control the
>  money are going to try to keep as much for themselves as they can,
>  and the writers (and later the actors) are going to try to get as
>  much as they can for their people. Of course I hope it ends soon, not
>  just for my entertainment, but so all the people who depend on
>  production for work can make their money too, but that's just as much
>  a reason to want the other side to offer more than for the writers to
>  demand less.


Writers should get their share.  We all agree. It's nice that the
basics are established, especially since I'm about to say something
that might sound like I'm anti-strike. :)

I really think that the current strike is not merely about the
changing medium of the Internet but also about changing the
fundamental payment structure for Hollywood writers, specifically TV,
and that is something that has remained stable for a while, since
video tapes were new-ish and en vogue (for me, that's most, if not
all, of my admittedly short life).  DVDs have been around a while and
the embrace of the technology has been evident for more than a few
years - I know writers get some of this but with DVD production costs
being so low, they're seeing practically nothing.  Internet
distribution hit it big in 2005 but was around before [relatively]
long before that.  Why has the WGA decided that now, when reality TV
has hit it big and enabled corporations to keep TV going for a few
seasons sans writers, is a good time to do a big strike?  (I know
strikes have happened more recently, but they were minor compared to
this one.)  It really seems like, unless something stunning happens,
the end of the strike may yield a better pay structure for a whole lot
of unpaid writers, and it won't make the industry's non-writers happy
since a good chunk of them have been losing their jobs with little
guarantee of getting them back after the strike is over.

In the end, I think there is going to be many unhappy people, and it's
going to shake up the industry in ways the WGA probably didn't
anticipate. (There is now serious talks of online companies like
Google getting into entertainment because they would be willing to
hash out new payment structures et cetera, but until media center
costs drop, the barriers to entry are a little high and I think we
should concentrate on the current strike.)

I'm sure I mean to say something more intelligent ... something worthy
of sending this email, but really, it's 12:40am here, and I need to be
at work in the morning. I hope Peeves hasn't invaded this email like
he has made my work computer his permanent home.

~Ali



From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 16 08:13:42 2008
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 08:13:42 -0000
Subject: HP & DH Movi
In-Reply-To: <b6e131bf0801152143x6693ff97n56a6d7b382f45637@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <fmkebm+65i0@eGroups.com>

---  "P. Alexis Nguyen" <alexisnguyen at ...> wrote:
> ...
> 
> 
> Writers should get their share.  ... I'm about to say 
> something that might sound like I'm anti-strike. :)
> 
> I really think that the current strike is not merely about 
> the changing medium of the Internet but also about changing
> the fundamental payment structure for Hollywood writers, 
> specifically TV, ...  Internet distribution hit it big in 
> 2005 but was around before [relatively] long before that.  
> Why has the WGA decided that now, ..., is a good time to do 
> a big strike?  

bboyminn:

I think they are striking now because now is when their 
existing Union contract is about to expire. That is typically
when Unions negotiate and when they are likely to strike. 

I think once they have a contract in place, except in the most
extreme circumstances it is more or less illegal for them to 
strike. The only time they are allowed to strike is during
contract negotiations.

Does that make sense?

Steve/bboyminn




From OctobersChild48 at aol.com  Wed Jan 16 08:30:51 2008
From: OctobersChild48 at aol.com (OctobersChild48 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 03:30:51 EST
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re:reality tv, was HP & DH Movi
Message-ID: <c5b.2438293c.34bf1abb@aol.com>

 
In a message dated 1/15/2008 6:03:12 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
kempermentor at yahoo.com writes:

Reality tv is popular because there is something wrong with our (US)  culture.




Sandy:
 
Is that the reason? I am not being sarcastic, I  absolutely loathe reality 
tv. It is a scourge. I am finding it harder and harder  to find anything worth 
watching on tv, and two of my former favorite networks  have fallen prey to the 
reality bandwagon. A&E used to be such a wonderful  network and now it's just 
garbage. Court TV changed to Tru TV on Jan. 1. Their  blurb is "not reality 
but actuality". It's a load of crap. They have been  switching towards reality 
for a long while now, and I have watched it less and  less. So now my 
television is mostly set on HGTV or The Food network, when I am  actually watching 
television. Even The History Channel has taken a turn for the  worse. Thank 
goodness I have a very large video library, both tape and DVD. I  was off today, 
and since I don't do soaps, I spent the day watching Columbo on  DVD.
 
Sandy



**************Start the year off right.  Easy ways to stay in shape.     
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From Schlobin at aol.com  Wed Jan 16 08:43:40 2008
From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 08:43:40 -0000
Subject: Catholic newspaper publishes debate about HP - what do people think?
Message-ID: <fmkg3s+a5ge@eGroups.com>

Has anyone else been reading the stories about the debate about HP in 
the Catholic press?

I'd love to hear people's thoughts.

Here's the link to one story about it...

Click here: CNS STORY: Writers in Vatican newspaper debate lessons of 
Harry Potter novels 
http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0800250.htm


Susan




From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 16 08:47:42 2008
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 08:47:42 -0000
Subject: Brad Renfro Dead at Age 25
Message-ID: <fmkgbe+g4k6@eGroups.com>

While it is not related to Harry Potter, it is none the less a
great loss. Brad Renfro, former child actor in such very great
movies as the 'The Client' and 'The Cure' has died in his home
at age 25. He has had plenty of run-ins with drugs and the law 
in his post teen years. Though if you saw the movie 'Bullies', 
then you saw his tremendous potential as an adult actor. He
has had many other minor supporting role, and in every case
has shown his finely honed skill as an actor. But sadly his
drinking and drug abuse held him back. I've always been a big
fan of his, and hoped he would find his way as an adult actor. 
But sadly his young life has ended.

http://www.mtv.com/movies/news/articles/1579719/20080115/story.jhtml


Another fine actor who couldn't make the transition from child
to adult actor was the very talented and handsome Jonathan
Brandis (TV-Seaquest) who had over 46 acting credits in his
short life. Jonathan, unable to face the rejection of Hollywood,
though he was still young and handsome, took his own life. 
Another talented young person tragically lost.

It is my deepest, most heartfelt, and fondest hope that none
of the Potter crew follow this path.

Steve/bboyminn





From s.hayes at qut.edu.au  Wed Jan 16 08:57:03 2008
From: s.hayes at qut.edu.au (Sharon Hayes)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 18:57:03 +1000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Brad Renfro Dead at Age 25
In-Reply-To: <fmkgbe+g4k6@eGroups.com>
References: <fmkgbe+g4k6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3EBC8113FA09F449B6CC44C847E510911CDFC63241@QUTEXMBX02.qut.edu.au>


Steve:
It is my deepest, most heartfelt, and fondest hope that none
of the Potter crew follow this path.

Sharon:
That is so sad. The HP actors seem to be so confident, and considering their longstanding contracts, surely their lives won't be as wobbly. I heard that Dan Radcliffe had a very quiet party for his 18th. I believe he said he had no intention of going out and getting drunk and giving the press fodder. I suspect he's a bit smarter (and bloody richer!) than the average teen star. Also, Rupert Grint bought an ice-cream van with his millions and Tom Felton spends his time fishing - -hardly the kind of teen anst that would lead to early death. Emma Watson is still talking about university. Apparently she is, like Hermione, a bit of a brain. Stiil, you never know.



From OctobersChild48 at aol.com  Wed Jan 16 09:10:56 2008
From: OctobersChild48 at aol.com (OctobersChild48 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 04:10:56 EST
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: HP & DH Movie
Message-ID: <d18.1e58f595.34bf2420@aol.com>

 
Carol wrote:

Carol,  still hoping for an end to the strike for all concerned, with
the best  interests of everyone prevailing over self-interest (and I'm
talking about  both sides here)




Sandy:
 
As reluctant as I am, I have to jump in on this, and I  have to side with the 
writers.
 
I am a Union employee and I and my fellow co-workers  missed going on strike 
by 45 minutes back at the end of October. I have to tell  you that going on 
strike would have been totally devastating for me financially,  but I was 
totally prepared to do it, and, jn fact, I still believe we should  have. 
 
I have seen corporate greed at it's worst, and I firmly  believe that if 
there is any "self-interest" involved it is all on the part of  the corporation, 
company, conglomerate - whatever that the writers work  for.
 
I think it's a shame that unions have to exist and  strikes have to occur, 
but they are unfortunate neccessities in corporate  America. I work for a 
company that made over a billion dollars in profit in  2006, yet I barely manage to 
get by despite the Union. The CEO made four million  in 2006; I made 18 
thousand. The only thing I got out of the new contract was a  30 cent raise a year 
for the next three years. But not to worry, the company  knows how to not lose 
any profits on that - they cut our hours.
 
 
If what Kemper said in a post upthread is true, the  writers are asking for 
peanuts, but it would cut into profits and management is  not going to go for 
that if they can at all prevent it. They are not hurting  right now so they 
will try to wear the writers down because they are. Corporate  greed is an ugly 
thing.
 
Sandy, who plans on retiring at the end of this year,  much sooner than she 
should, but who can't take working for her employer a  minute longer than she 
has to.



**************Start the year off right.  Easy ways to stay in shape.     
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 16 09:12:44 2008
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 09:12:44 -0000
Subject: Brad Renfro Dead at Age 25
In-Reply-To: <3EBC8113FA09F449B6CC44C847E510911CDFC63241@QUTEXMBX02.qut.edu.au>
Message-ID: <fmkhqc+a3rg@eGroups.com>

---  Sharon Hayes <s.hayes at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> Steve:
> It is my deepest, most heartfelt, and fondest hope that none
> of the Potter crew follow this path.
> 
> Sharon:
> That is so sad. The HP actors seem to be so confident, and 
> considering their longstanding contracts, surely their lives
> won't be as wobbly. (snip example of good behavior)- -hardly
> the kind of teen anst that would lead to early death. Emma 
> Watson is still talking about university. Apparently she is,
> like Hermione, a bit of a brain. Stiil, you never know.
>

bboyminn:

Yes, but it is easy to be 'hot' when you are 'hot' but what
happens when you're not so hot. There was a time for both
Brad and Jonathan when they were so popular that they needed
teams of guards to hold back the screaming crowds. But when
the 'child' acting roles fade, and so did the crowds. 

You need real stamina and stability to make the transition
to adult actor. Look at Patric Dempsey, now on Grey's Anatomy,
he went through some pretty lean years before he re-emerged
as an adult actor. Many child stars never emerge as adult
actors and they have to have and be satisfied with a normal
life out of the limelight. Some simply can't do that; they
get there self-worth from the adoring crowds.

Though I'm no Britney Spears fan, I see her heading in this
direction. There are already very bad signs as can be seen
in this news article -

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/showbiz/article-23432372-details/Britney's+suicide+note:+'It+would+be+better+if+I+was+dead'/article.do

I think the one HUGE advantage is that the Potter crew are
NOT in Hollywood where your total self-worth hangs on your
last picture. 

It's very tragic. I don't think Brad or Jonathan had anyone 
there to guide them and lend them perspective on what was 
happening to them. Fortunately, and most hopefully, the 
Potter crew does have that. Though at some point, they have
to make it in life on their own merit and their own decisions.

Tragic, very tragic to see such talent snuffed out. 

Steve/bboyminn




From tonks_op at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 16 09:22:19 2008
From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 09:22:19 -0000
Subject: Chocolate Search
In-Reply-To: <fmjhbv+thau@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fmkicb+fhpo@eGroups.com>

montims said:

Just to branch it out, so as not to keep getting at American 
chocolates - Italians make the most gloriously elaborately decorated 
Easter eggs - huge, and wrapped in wonderful coloured foils and 
paper and gorgeous. Until you unwrap them. The chocolate is 
inedible...!

Tonks:
That reminds me of another Harry Potter chocolate from the UK. They 
had these really good Eggs you could give at Easter, they were 
dragon eggs for each of the 4 dragons in GOF. And in the very center 
was a little gummy dragon. I wish they still made those.

And on the subject of cheese. The Monks in KY also make cheese. I 
have not had any, but I am told that it is very good.

About a month ago, I did have some of that Stilton cheese that Lee 
mentioned. First time I ever had any, It is very good. One of the 
advantages of being an Anglican is that there are many folks who 
came over here from England who are members of my church and they 
often bring good stuff back to us after a visit home. One woman had 
her mother visiting and the mum made a very good desert, but I can???t 
remember what it was called.  Problem is I am getting so senile I 
can???t remember what is was either, but only that is was very 
different and good. 

Tonks_op
who after reading about the chocolate with the orange centers 
remembered that she had something like that left from Christmas and 
just ate too much of it as I was typing this. Where did all of this 
stuff come from! I am on an diet now!! Where is my wand, maybe there 
is a safer way to get rid of it all.




From tonks_op at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 16 09:50:35 2008
From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 09:50:35 -0000
Subject: Catholic newspaper publishes debate about HP - what do people think?
In-Reply-To: <fmkg3s+a5ge@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fmkk1b+q7uh@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "susanmcgee48176" 
<Schlobin at ...> wrote:
>
> Has anyone else been reading the stories about the debate about HP 
in 
> the Catholic press?
> 
> I'd love to hear people's thoughts.
> 

Tonks:
Interesting article. I had not been following the discussion if 
there has been one. I can see the point of the man who fears a 
Gnostic interpretation. That could happen. I don???t think that is the 
way the author intended it, however. I think the message is very 
clear and very simple, but I am rather shocked that people from the 
Vatican of all places can???t see it.  But then the Vatican reported 
on it, but the men in the debate were not from the Vatican. They 
were a Doctor and a College professor. We do not know if they have 
any theological training. I suspect not, or they would have seen the 
obvious message of the book.

The difference between the Muggle world and the Wizard world is that 
the Wizard is a person who is aware of the spiritual world and the 
deeper truth that exist around them. All of the monks that I know 
just love the HP books.  Anyone with any theological training should 
be able to see what Harry became. It just jumps right off the page.  
He is Everyman (each of us) transformed into Christ. 

Tonks_op





From OctobersChild48 at aol.com  Wed Jan 16 10:32:38 2008
From: OctobersChild48 at aol.com (OctobersChild48 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 05:32:38 EST
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: HP & DH Movie
Message-ID: <cee.278a7fd5.34bf3746@aol.com>

Carol:

I'm  not saying that the writers shouldn't get their due, only that
they are  keeping others from working--actors, directors, film crews.
Even the  caterers and hairstylists suffered as a result of the
writers' strike  causing the Golden Globes to be a nonevent. And the
writers themselves  can't even write. They're being controlled by the
union. How fair is  that?
 
Sandy:
 
You have it all wrong. The union does not control it's  members, it is the 
other way around. The union makes it's recommendations but it  is entirely up to 
the membership how they choose to act upon them. It is done in  a very 
Democratic fashion; by vote, and the majority vote rules and wins. And  any member 
of the union can choose to cross the picket line and continue to  work. It is 
usually not in their best interest to do so, but they  can.
 
As far as workers in other fields who are being affected  by the strike but 
are not part of it - they have options that the striking  workers don't. They 
can apply for unemployment and receive it, the striking  worker can't. The 
non-striking worker is eligible for whatever social benefits  that are available, 
such as food stamps and medical, the striking worker isn't.  No, it is not on 
par with their usual standard of living, but it is a hell of a  lot better 
than strike pay.
 
I would also like to point out that a strike catches  nobody by surprise. 
Even if the contract expires today and the strike occurs  tomorrow everyone has 
known for months that it is pending, including non-union  workers. You always 
have time to prepare for it, as best you can. The only real  uncertainty is how 
long it will last.
 
Strikes are most certainly unfortunate and unpleasant  for anyone and 
everyone involved, but in my opinion they would not be necessary  if the powers that 
be were only willing to share the wealth.
 
Sandy, a union worker who has gone through two strike  threats in just a 
little over three years.

 



**************Start the year off right.  Easy ways to stay in shape.     
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From OctobersChild48 at aol.com  Wed Jan 16 10:51:53 2008
From: OctobersChild48 at aol.com (OctobersChild48 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 05:51:53 EST
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: HP & DH Movie
Message-ID: <bf7.262d2d3e.34bf3bc9@aol.com>

 


Carol:

Anyone besides me think that the writers' strike has  gotten out of

hand, hurting more people than it's helping and that it's  time to settle?

Carol, who would resent being unable to work just  because others were

demanding higher wages (surely there's a better way  to negotiate)






Sandy:
 
Unfortunately there isn't a better way to negotiate when  one side isn't 
willing to do so. Also, it is not only about higher wages. When I  was faced with 
striking a few months ago it was about wages, medical benefits  and protecting 
our pension. We extended our contract for a month so negotiations  could 
continue, but two weeks in the company walked away from the negotiations.  It 
wasn't until the 11th hour, when they finally figured out that we meant it,  that 
they returned to the table. We were lucky because a contract agreement was  
reached 45 minutes before we were due to walk out. Even so, we weren't totally  
happy with the contract we got, but we won on the major issues - health care 
and  pension. The raise we got was laughable, but we got one; not the wage cut 
the  company wanted. A strike is unfortunate but sometimes a necessary evil. 
 
Sandy



**************Start the year off right.  Easy ways to stay in shape.     
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From jnferr at gmail.com  Wed Jan 16 13:04:05 2008
From: jnferr at gmail.com (Janette)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 07:04:05 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Catholic newspaper publishes debate about HP - what do people think?
In-Reply-To: <fmkk1b+q7uh@eGroups.com>
References: <fmkg3s+a5ge@eGroups.com> <fmkk1b+q7uh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8ee758b40801160504i50210c5dm66dd75898f55c0bf@mail.gmail.com>

>
> Tonks:
> Interesting article. I had not been following the discussion if
> there has been one. I can see the point of the man who fears a
> Gnostic interpretation. That could happen. I don't think that is the
> way the author intended it, however. I think the message is very
> clear and very simple, but I am rather shocked that people from the
> Vatican of all places can't see it.  But then the Vatican reported
> on it, but the men in the debate were not from the Vatican. They
> were a Doctor and a College professor. We do not know if they have
> any theological training. I suspect not, or they would have seen the
> obvious message of the book.
>
> The difference between the Muggle world and the Wizard world is that
> the Wizard is a person who is aware of the spiritual world and the
> deeper truth that exist around them. All of the monks that I know
> just love the HP books.  Anyone with any theological training should
> be able to see what Harry became. It just jumps right off the page.
> He is Everyman (each of us) transformed into Christ.


montims:

and yet that is not at all the message that I take, and I am sure
non-Christians who enjoy the book(s) take a different message, as,
apparently, do some Christians.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From heidi8 at gmail.com  Wed Jan 16 14:45:26 2008
From: heidi8 at gmail.com (Heidi Tandy)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 09:45:26 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: HP & DH Movie
In-Reply-To: <bf7.262d2d3e.34bf3bc9@aol.com>
References: <bf7.262d2d3e.34bf3bc9@aol.com>
Message-ID: <1200494730.35429EF3@fb8.dngr.org>

Carol:
>
> Anyone besides me think that the writers' strike has  gotten out of
>
> hand, hurting more people than it's helping and that it's  time to 
> settle?
>
> Carol, who would resent being unable to work just  because others were
>
> demanding higher wages (surely there's a better way  to negotiate)
>

The thing is, here, that Hollywood is a "union town" and everyone who's 
gone into theindustry in the last 5-6 decades knows it. The Director's 
Guild's contract with the producers expires later this spring, and 
they're negotiating with the AMPTP - who refused to sit down with the 
writers - using pretty much the same terms and economic arguments as the 
WGA. And the Screen Actors Guild's contract is up this summer, so 
they're next on the list.

The WGA has the support of the SAG and the DGA *because* the producers 
don't want to give writers, actors or directors a piece of the internet 
pie at all. If you buy a dvd of  a film, the director, certain actors 
and the writers get a portion of that sale; if you download it they get 
nothing and the producer and studio get it all.

Why?

Last I checked, the internet had been around longer than dvds, so the 
producers' argument that the internet is "experimental" seems like 
dragon dung to me - and to their shareholders, as they've been bragging 
about internet revenue in stockholder reports for years.


- heidi



From minnesotatiffany at hotmail.com  Wed Jan 16 16:16:01 2008
From: minnesotatiffany at hotmail.com (Tiffany B. Clark)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 16:16:01 -0000
Subject: Brad Renfro Dead at Age 25
In-Reply-To: <3EBC8113FA09F449B6CC44C847E510911CDFC63241@QUTEXMBX02.qut.edu.au>
Message-ID: <fmlak1+aa5j@eGroups.com>

> Sharon:
> 
> That is so sad. The HP actors seem to be so confident, and 
considering their longstanding contracts, surely their lives won't be 
as wobbly. I heard that Dan Radcliffe had a very quiet party for his 
18th. I believe he said he had no intention of going out and getting 
drunk and giving the press fodder. I suspect he's a bit smarter (and 
bloody richer!) than the average teen star. Also, Rupert Grint bought 
an ice-cream van with his millions and Tom Felton spends his time 
fishing - -hardly the kind of teen anst that would lead to early 
death. Emma Watson is still talking about university. Apparently she 
is, like Hermione, a bit of a brain. Stiil, you never know.

Tiffany:

It's a lot easier to feel confident when everything's going good & 
the only thing you need to worry about is your meals & how you look.  
There's a tidy fortune of child actors who sturggled to make it as 
adults & hopefully none of the Potter stars go that way, but Renfro's 
dying reminds me a lot of River Phoenix's end in 1993.  He too was 
involved into drugs & booze heavily & departed at only 23 years old.  
I was only 7 when it happened, but I remembered watching some of his 
stuff & it was real tragic.




From kempermentor at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 16 17:17:22 2008
From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kemper mentor)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 09:17:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: TV to watch during the strike
Message-ID: <672025.7220.qm@web90415.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Here are some suggestions you may be able to find at your local library, storefront or online video/dvd store:

24
30 Rock
Arrested Development
Avatar the Last Airbender
Battlestar Galatica
Curb Your Enthusiasm
Dead Like Me
Deadwood
Dexter
Entourage
Extras
Freaks and Geeks
Heroes
The Office (I prefer US version; don't hate me UK)
Queer as Folk
Rescue Me
Sex and The City
Six Feet Under
Star Gates (One and Atlantis)
and
Star Treks (Various Inceptions)
Weeds
The Wire
X-Files






      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better friend, newshound, and 
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From alexisnguyen at gmail.com  Wed Jan 16 17:18:20 2008
From: alexisnguyen at gmail.com (P. Alexis Nguyen)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 12:18:20 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: HP & DH Mov
In-Reply-To: <fmkebm+65i0@eGroups.com>
References: <b6e131bf0801152143x6693ff97n56a6d7b382f45637@mail.gmail.com>
	 <fmkebm+65i0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b6e131bf0801160918p7383aaedx9e33386d5bd2cc2e@mail.gmail.com>

bboyminn:
>
> I think they are striking now because now is when their
> existing Union contract is about to expire. That is typically
> when Unions negotiate and when they are likely to strike.
>
> I think once they have a contract in place, except in the most
> extreme circumstances it is more or less illegal for them to
> strike. The only time they are allowed to strike is during
> contract negotiations.


I know that the WGA went on strike because their contract were up,
just like how the director & actor guilds' contracts are both up
within this year and there are whispers of the WGA hoping that the
support that these guilds have been giving the WGA might be enough
manpower to push the big six to negotiation fair compensation.  That
doesn't answer the question of why now.  The Internet & DVD has been
around a while.  Surely the contracts didn't predate either of these?
I do know some about the WGA strike, but I don't know enough to
understand the intricacies of why this is such a big problem right now
(and not 2 years ago or whatever).

And I don't think it's illegal to strike whilst the contracts exists,
just like it isn't illegal to fire union workers, though doing either
would be very unwise without great reasons.  The power in unions isn't
something granted because of law so much as because of there being
power in numbers.  That is not to say, of course, that unions are not
protect by the law the some degree; I just don't recall the law
operating in the way that you claim.

~Ali, who is really enjoying the discourse of the OT list these days



From heidi8 at gmail.com  Wed Jan 16 17:27:02 2008
From: heidi8 at gmail.com (Heidi Tandy)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 12:27:02 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] TV to watch during the strike
In-Reply-To: <672025.7220.qm@web90415.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <672025.7220.qm@web90415.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1200504425.218AAE34@dk16.dngr.org>


On Wed, 16 Jan 2008 9:17 am, kemper mentor wrote:
> Here are some suggestions you may be able to find at your local 
> library, storefront or online video/dvd store:


Kemper didn't include what I consider to be two of the best shows on tv: 
Doctor Who and Supernatural.

DW is the new version of the bbc classic and there's just under 40 
episodes available on dvd from the last three seasons. The current 
Doctor is David Tennant who was Barty Jr in GoF, and he's phenomenal. 
The show is required viewing for any anglophile, imho.

Supernatural is the most underrated show on tv. It airs on the CW, who 
generally ignore it and never promote it, on Thursdays after smallville 
and the first two seasons are on dvd; the third is on itunes and the cw 
website - four more eps will air in February. It's the story of two 
young men who grew up in an Impala crossing the US, as their father 
hunted all things supernatural and evil - ghosts, demons, vampires, etc. 
The show stars Jared Padalecki from Gilmore Girls and Jensen Ackles from 
Dark Angel and it's *terrific*.

- heidi



From kempermentor at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 16 17:36:07 2008
From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kemper mentor)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 09:36:07 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] TV to watch during the strike
Message-ID: <497262.36905.qm@web90410.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


> Kemper ealier:

 > Here are some suggestions you may be able to find at your local 

 > library, storefront or online video/dvd store:

 

Heidi:
 Kemper didn't include what I consider to be two of the best shows on tv: 

 Doctor Who and Supernatural.

 


Kemper now:
I also forgot to include:
Buffy (Joss Weadon writes the 8th season in comic book form and it's great!)
Family Guy


Kemper





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From n2fgc at arrl.net  Wed Jan 16 17:39:12 2008
From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Lee Storm(God Is The Healing Force))
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 12:39:12 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] TV to watch during the strike
In-Reply-To: <672025.7220.qm@web90415.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000701c85866$b9b981f0$67a4a8c0@FRODO>

Hmm--Kemper, when it comes to Battlestar Galactica, I hope you mean the
*Real* one, not the Ron Moore travesty!

Sorry if I stepped on those who actually like the Ron Moore thing, but the
Original fans often call that version GINO (Galactica In Name Only.)

Cheers,
Lee :-)
(Going back to her DVDs of Lorn Green and Dirk Benedict)

Do not walk behind me,    | Lee Storm
I may not care to lead;   | N2FGC
Do not walk before me,    | n2fgc at arrl.net (or)
I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at optonline.net
Walk beside me, and be my friend.





From alexisnguyen at gmail.com  Wed Jan 16 17:45:25 2008
From: alexisnguyen at gmail.com (P. Alexis Nguyen)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 12:45:25 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] TV to watch during the strike
In-Reply-To: <497262.36905.qm@web90410.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <497262.36905.qm@web90410.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <b6e131bf0801160945r4d01db53n8280c5cd46ca3553@mail.gmail.com>

Kemper:
> I also forgot to include:
> Buffy (Joss Weadon writes the 8th season in comic book form and it's great!)
> Family Guy

I'm guessing you also happened to forget the other Whedon classic: Firefly!!

I also recommend Psych.  Great show and the first season came out on
DVD a few months ago. :)

~Ali



From donnawonna at att.net  Wed Jan 16 17:07:43 2008
From: donnawonna at att.net (Donna)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 12:07:43 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
Subject: reality tv, was HP & DH Movi
References: <c5b.2438293c.34bf1abb@aol.com>
Message-ID: <478E39DE.00000C.03220@LIFESAVER>

Donna:

I'm right there with Sandy.  I do NOT watch reality TV.  Judging by the few
seconds I've caught while "surfing", there's absolutely nothing real about
it.  Also, I, too, am finding it harder and harder to find anything on TV
worth watching.  I switched from cable to satellite (BIG mistake) and my
personal viewing choices reduced in number.  I don't do reality (mostly on
local channels), pay-per-view, sports, shopping, infomercials, soaps, music
videos, and I outgrew porn many, many years ago.  I'm paying for 100
channels and watch, maybe 12-15 over time.  I've rediscovered the library
and Sudoku.  Also, I'm very thankful for my Blockbuster's membership and my
personal video library.

 

In a message dated 1/15/2008 6:03:12 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, 
kempermentor at yahoo.com writes:

Reality tv is popular because there is something wrong with our (US) culture


Sandy:

Is that the reason? I am not being sarcastic, I absolutely loathe reality 
tv. It is a scourge. I am finding it harder and harder to find anything
worth 
watching on tv, and two of my former favorite networks have fallen prey to
the 
reality bandwagon. A&E used to be such a wonderful network and now it's just

garbage. Court TV changed to Tru TV on Jan. 1. Their blurb is "not reality 
but actuality". It's a load of crap. They have been switching towards
reality 
for a long while now, and I have watched it less and less. So now my 
television is mostly set on HGTV or The Food network, when I am actually
watching 
television. Even The History Channel has taken a turn for the worse. Thank 
goodness I have a very large video library, both tape and DVD. I was off
today, 
and since I don't do soaps, I spent the day watching Columbo on DVD.

Sandy

**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. 
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


 
 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From kempermentor at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 16 18:04:10 2008
From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kemper mentor)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 10:04:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] TV to watch during the strike
Message-ID: <763696.25689.qm@web90411.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Lee:
Hmm--Kemper, when it comes to Battlestar Galactica, I hope you mean the

 *Real* one, not the Ron Moore travesty!

 

 Sorry if I stepped on those who actually like the Ron Moore thing, but the

 Original fans often call that version GINO (Galactica In Name Only.)

 

Kemper now:
I heart new Battlestar!
The old one is good, too.

Kemper




      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page. 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs



From kempermentor at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 16 18:05:57 2008
From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kemper mentor)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 10:05:57 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] TV to watch during the strike
Message-ID: <238891.26776.qm@web90403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


                               Kemper:

 > I also forgot to include:

 > Buffy (Joss Weadon writes the 8th season in comic book form and it's great!)

 > Family Guy

 


Ali:
 I'm guessing you also happened to forget the other Whedon classic: Firefly!!

 

Kemper now:
wtf was I thinking!?!  Yes, Firefly!!!




      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page. 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs



From minnesotatiffany at hotmail.com  Wed Jan 16 18:29:03 2008
From: minnesotatiffany at hotmail.com (Tiffany B. Clark)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 18:29:03 -0000
Subject: TV to watch during the strike
In-Reply-To: <672025.7220.qm@web90415.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <fmlidf+114bv@eGroups.com>

> Kemper:
>
> Here are some suggestions you may be able to find at your local 
library, storefront or online video/dvd store:
 24
 30 Rock
 Arrested Development
 Avatar the Last Airbender
 Battlestar Galatica
 Curb Your Enthusiasm
 Dead Like Me
 Deadwood
 Dexter
 Entourage
 Extras
 Freaks and Geeks
 Heroes
 The Office (I prefer US version; don't hate me UK)
 Queer as Folk
 Rescue Me
 Sex and The City
 Six Feet Under
 Star Gates (One and Atlantis)
 and
 Star Treks (Various Inceptions)
 Weeds
 The Wire
 X-Files

Tiffany:

I'm gonna catch Cloverfield on Friday with some friends of mine in 
college at U. of Minnesota.  I've got a lot of DVDs to watch, so I've 
got a backup plan in case TV is boring.  Most of the times, however, 
I'm away from home doing something with my friends & use a laptop for 
communicating or entertaining then.




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 16 19:13:05 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 19:13:05 -0000
Subject: HP & DH Movie
In-Reply-To: <d18.1e58f595.34bf2420@aol.com>
Message-ID: <fmll01+ujc7@eGroups.com>

Sandy:
>  
> As reluctant as I am, I have to jump in on this, and I  have to side
with the writers.
>  
> I am a Union employee and I and my fellow co-workers  missed going
on strike by 45 minutes back at the end of October. I have to tell 
you that going on strike would have been totally devastating for me
financially,  but I was totally prepared to do it, and, jn fact, I
still believe we should have. <snip>
  
> I think it's a shame that unions have to exist and  strikes have to
occur, but they are unfortunate neccessities in corporate America. <snip>
>  
> If what Kemper said in a post upthread is true, the  writers are
asking for peanuts, but it would cut into profits and management is 
not going to go for that if they can at all prevent it. They are not
hurting right now so they will try to wear the writers down because
they are. Corporate greed is an ugly thing. <snip>

Carol responds:

The trouble with strikes, IMO, is that they hurt the very people who
are asking for "peanuts," depriving them and their families of needed
income, customers of needed services (in the case of teacher's
strikes, depriving students of an education if the strike is
extended), and, in the case of the writers' strike, extending to
people in related industries. All for the sake of a complicated,
Internet-related problem that, IMO, ought to be resolved without a
strike. The writers are not helping themselves or anyone else by
striking because they can't earn an income when they're on the picket
line, and they can't even write at home, as I understand it, without
violating their union contract.

Surely, a writer's rights include the right to write. That's what they
do. That's how they earn their living. And, regardless of the validity
of their claim to the use of their work in new, technologically
related ways, that sort of complication seems to me to be a problem
for lawmakers, not producers, to resolve.

As for the idea expressed by Kemper that failing to honor the strike
is "treachery," I think that word is more than a bit strong,
especially if they have no other means of earning a living. (Ever try
to live on unemployment benefits? Are strikers even entitled to them?)
If the strike keeps up, the phrase "starving writer" might be
something more than a cliche.

Carol, more concerned about the writers' right to eat and pay their
bills and put their kids through college than about their rights to
subsidies that would only marginally increase their income






From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 16 19:30:50 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 19:30:50 -0000
Subject: TV to watch during the strike
In-Reply-To: <b6e131bf0801160945r4d01db53n8280c5cd46ca3553@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <fmlm1a+1pb8@eGroups.com>

Ali wrote:
<snip>
> 
> I also recommend Psych.  Great show and the first season came out on
> DVD a few months ago. :)

Carol responds:

I'll throw in the show that's always associated with "Psych," "Monk."
I own the whole series on DVD. I also own the 1980s series "Crime
Story." Otherwise, my TV watching is limited to "Sunday Morning" and
other "morning" shows, with an occasional Discovery Channel or Animal
Planet show if I happen to be channel-flipping. Sometimes I wonder why
I even own a TV except to serve as a video monitor for old VHS tapes
if my VCR were working. As for DVDs, I can always play them on the
computer.

Carol, who sometimes forgets that she owns a TV and almost never
listens to the radio (lousy reception and no decent stations)




From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Wed Jan 16 20:35:35 2008
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 20:35:35 -0000
Subject: HP & DH Movie
In-Reply-To: <fmll01+ujc7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fmlpqn+6e3u@eGroups.com>

> Carol responds:
> 
> The trouble with strikes, IMO, is that they hurt the very people 
who
> are asking for "peanuts," depriving them and their families of 
needed
> income, customers of needed services (in the case of teacher's
> strikes, depriving students of an education if the strike is
> extended), and, in the case of the writers' strike, extending to
> people in related industries. All for the sake of a complicated,
> Internet-related problem that, IMO, ought to be resolved without a
> strike. The writers are not helping themselves or anyone else by
> striking because they can't earn an income when they're on the 
picket
> line, and they can't even write at home, as I understand it, 
without
> violating their union contract.

Magpie:
But the solution to that is that they shouldn't strike, so should 
just cave in to the people who are witholding the money for 
themselves anyway, and that hurts everyone in the long run as well.  
The *are* helping themselves and others with the strike. They're 
striking for payment from the things they create.

How is the Internet (and other) problem going to be resolved without 
a strike? The owners have their own solution--pretend they're not 
making any money off these peoples' work on the Internet when they 
are and write contracts where they keep the profits for themselves. 
Why is that a good idea? 

Carol: 
> Surely, a writer's rights include the right to write. That's what 
they
> do. That's how they earn their living. And, regardless of the 
validity
> of their claim to the use of their work in new, technologically
> related ways, that sort of complication seems to me to be a problem
> for lawmakers, not producers, to resolve.

Magpie:
But obviously it isn't a problem for lawmakers--I'm not sure why it 
would be. They're working out the profits for sale of their work. 
Why would there be laws about that rather than the writer (or 
director or actor etc.) working out what they are going to be paid 
for the stuff they create and how it's used in their contract? What 
would a law really have to do with it?

Carol: 
> As for the idea expressed by Kemper that failing to honor the 
strike
> is "treachery," I think that word is more than a bit strong,
> especially if they have no other means of earning a living. (Ever 
try
> to live on unemployment benefits? Are strikers even entitled to 
them?)
> If the strike keeps up, the phrase "starving writer" might be
> something more than a cliche.

Magpie:
It already is more than a cliche--most writers make very little 
money:-) It's probably one profession where people have gone without 
steady paychecks.

Actually, I wonder if there aren't a lot of people who might get 
some good writing done during the strike and just sell it later. 
Nothing's stopping them from that kind of writing that they might 
one day make a lot of money from.

 
> Carol, more concerned about the writers' right to eat and pay their
> bills and put their kids through college than about their rights to
> subsidies that would only marginally increase their income

Magpie:
I'm not so sure it's as marginal as you're describing it here. It 
just seems like a short-sighted way of looking at it--basically 
saying that they shouldn't ever decide to fight for what they 
consider fair pay for their work because it sounds bad for their 
finances now. The way you describe it always sounds like they're 
essentially starving themselves to death because they're too greedy 
to let other people take most of the profits made from stuff they've 
created. 

-m




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 16 20:53:56 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 20:53:56 -0000
Subject: HP & DH Movie
In-Reply-To: <fmlpqn+6e3u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fmlqt4+ek88@eGroups.com>

Magpie:

> Magpie:
> But obviously it isn't a problem for lawmakers--I'm not sure why it 
> would be. They're working out the profits for sale of their work. 
> Why would there be laws about that rather than the writer (or 
> director or actor etc.) working out what they are going to be paid 
> for the stuff they create and how it's used in their contract? What 
> would a law really have to do with it?

Carol responds:

Because it relates to copyright law, the topic that started this
discussion in the first place. It *is* the government's or the court's
place to determine who owns the rights to a writer's work,
> 

> Magpie:
> It ["starving writer"] already is more than a cliche--most writers
make very little money:-) It's probably one profession where people
have gone without steady paychecks.

Carol responds:

I know. Add freelance editors to that list. :-)

Magpie: 
> Actually, I wonder if there aren't a lot of people who might get
some good writing done during the strike and just sell it later. 
Nothing's stopping them from that kind of writing that they might one
day make a lot of money from.
>
Carol:

That's not the impression I got. Didn't someone on this list say that
Steve Kloves can't write the DH script until the strike is settled? I
know I read that somewhere. At any rate, you can't write and stand in
a picket line at the same time. And wouldn't a union member who wrote
while the strike was on be considered a strike breaker (committing
"treachery," to use Kemper's word)?
>  
> > Carol, more concerned about the writers' right to eat and pay
their bills and put their kids through college than about their rights
to subsidies that would only marginally increase their income
> 
> Magpie:
> I'm not so sure it's as marginal as you're describing it here. It 
> just seems like a short-sighted way of looking at it--basically 
> saying that they shouldn't ever decide to fight for what they 
> consider fair pay for their work because it sounds bad for their 
> finances now. The way you describe it always sounds like they're 
> essentially starving themselves to death because they're too greedy 
> to let other people take most of the profits made from stuff they've 
> created. 

Carol responds:

Whether or not it's marginal, I doubt that it will make up for the
income they've lost in ten weeks (IIRC) of striking

Carol, who *is* concerned about the writers but is equally concerned
about the effects for all concerned of a prolonged strike





From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Wed Jan 16 21:16:45 2008
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 21:16:45 -0000
Subject: Brad Renfro Dead at Age 25
In-Reply-To: <fmlak1+aa5j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fmls7t+fjjh@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Tiffany B. Clark" <minnesotatiffany at ...> 
wrote:
>
> > Sharon:
> > 
> > That is so sad. The HP actors seem to be so confident, and 
> considering their longstanding contracts, surely their lives won't be 
> as wobbly. I heard that Dan Radcliffe had a very quiet party for his 
> 18th. I believe he said he had no intention of going out and getting 
> drunk and giving the press fodder. I suspect he's a bit smarter (and 
> bloody richer!) than the average teen star. Also, Rupert Grint bought 
> an ice-cream van with his millions and Tom Felton spends his time 
> fishing - -hardly the kind of teen anst that would lead to early 
> death. Emma Watson is still talking about university. Apparently she 
> is, like Hermione, a bit of a brain. Stiil, you never know.
> 
> Tiffany:
> 
> It's a lot easier to feel confident when everything's going good & 
> the only thing you need to worry about is your meals & how you look.  
> There's a tidy fortune of child actors who sturggled to make it as 
> adults & hopefully none of the Potter stars go that way, but Renfro's 
> dying reminds me a lot of River Phoenix's end in 1993.  He too was 
> involved into drugs & booze heavily & departed at only 23 years old.  
> I was only 7 when it happened, but I remembered watching some of his 
> stuff & it was real tragic.

Geoff:
There is a perception, over here in the UK, that the young UK stars - 
people like Dan, Rupert, Emma, Tom Felton, Matthew Lewis, Jamie Bell 
and others, take a much more down-to-earth and level headed approach 
to fame than some of the US guys who seem to get carried away by all 
the hoopla surrounding them. I've certainly seen several interviews in 
the last year or so and have been impressed by the way in which they 
have handled matters.

Dan Radcliffe in many ways is incredibly unfazed by everything. I might 
point you to a  superb interview he did for "The Observer" just before 
he opened in "Equus" last February which I think is one of the best I've 
seen about him. 

It's still available on the net at:
http://arts.guardian.co.uk/theatre/drama/story/0,,2009702,00.html





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 16 21:28:11 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 21:28:11 -0000
Subject: What's up with Google?
In-Reply-To: <001b01c857b5$06fa1950$6501a8c0@amynq6mzdn8bgx>
Message-ID: <fmlstb+urbo@eGroups.com>

Amy  wrote:
>
> I haven't been able to bring up Google search today. I thought it
was just my computer. I haven't been able to bring up cnn.com either.
Strange.

Carol responds:

FWIW, the problem seems to have been with Google itself and is now
resolved.

Carol, who will leaver her homepage alone and simply sign out next
time Google acts up!





From s_ings at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 16 21:37:27 2008
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 16:37:27 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: TV to watch during the strike
In-Reply-To: <fmlidf+114bv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <96465.20715.qm@web63409.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

> > Kemper:
> >
> > Here are some suggestions you may be able to find
> at your local 
> library, storefront or online video/dvd store:
>  24
>  30 Rock
>  Arrested Development
>  Avatar the Last Airbender
>  Battlestar Galatica
>  Curb Your Enthusiasm
>  Dead Like Me
>  Deadwood
>  Dexter
>  Entourage
>  Extras
>  Freaks and Geeks
>  Heroes
>  The Office (I prefer US version; don't hate me UK)
>  Queer as Folk
>  Rescue Me
>  Sex and The City
>  Six Feet Under
>  Star Gates (One and Atlantis)
>  and
>  Star Treks (Various Inceptions)
>  Weeds
>  The Wire
>  X-Files
> 
Sheryll:

Hee, you're talking to someone who could start her own
video store, including lots of TV series. 

Our favourites here, aside from any you've mentioned
already, include:

24
Oz
King of the Hill
Futurama
CSI (as long as it's not CSI:Miami)
Lost
M*A*S*H*
House

We own every season of Oz, X-Files and Futurama,
though we're still working our way through X-Files.
It's slow going when I bring home about 10 movies a
week from work.

Oh, gosh - add Rome to the list, that's a brilliant
one!

Sheryll, who admits to liking reality TV <vbg>

Join the fun at Convention Alley 2008



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From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Wed Jan 16 21:53:07 2008
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 21:53:07 -0000
Subject: HP & DH Movie
In-Reply-To: <fmlqt4+ek88@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fmluc3+rk9e@eGroups.com>

> Magpie:
> 
> > Magpie:
> > But obviously it isn't a problem for lawmakers--I'm not sure why 
it 
> > would be. They're working out the profits for sale of their 
work. 
> > Why would there be laws about that rather than the writer (or 
> > director or actor etc.) working out what they are going to be 
paid 
> > for the stuff they create and how it's used in their contract? 
What 
> > would a law really have to do with it?
> 
> Carol responds:
> 
> Because it relates to copyright law, the topic that started this
> discussion in the first place. It *is* the government's or the 
court's
> place to determine who owns the rights to a writer's work,

Magpie:
But that's not in question, is it? Isn't it that the writer is 
selling his/her writing as usual and the rights are agreed to via 
the contract? The contracts where I work say who will hold the 
copyright--it can be the writer or the pulbisher, depending on the 
contract. Then the contracts spell out what the author is going to 
get for use of something in certain formats--isn't that how it 
works? Why would the government pass a law that said the standard 
contract has to give the writer X amount off internet sales or X 
amount from the ad revenue from the internet? Wouldn't that be part 
of the deal? 

> Magpie: 
> > Actually, I wonder if there aren't a lot of people who might get
> some good writing done during the strike and just sell it later. 
> Nothing's stopping them from that kind of writing that they might 
one
> day make a lot of money from.
> >
> Carol:
> 
> That's not the impression I got. Didn't someone on this list say 
that
> Steve Kloves can't write the DH script until the strike is 
settled? I
> know I read that somewhere. At any rate, you can't write and stand 
in
> a picket line at the same time. And wouldn't a union member who 
wrote
> while the strike was on be considered a strike breaker (committing
> "treachery," to use Kemper's word)?

Magpie:
I wasn't referring to that kind of writing, since that's contracted 
writing. I'm talking about Steve Kloves writing something own that 
he's going to sell. (He can certainly think about how he's going to 
work on Harry Potter if he wants.) I can't imagine any writer would 
be considered a union breaker for going home in the evenings and 
working on his novel after walking on the picket line during the 
day. Plenty of writing is done after the day is over. Relatively few 
writers are paid for the time they write or have the bulk of the 
work day to do it, I think.

It just seems like it comes down to: strikes are hard and 
inconvenient. They are, but that's why I don't think people went 
into it lightly. I heard one group of writers describing a way in 
which these kinds of loopholes seemed to have them working for 
nothing.

> Carol responds:
> 
> Whether or not it's marginal, I doubt that it will make up for the
> income they've lost in ten weeks (IIRC) of striking
> 
> Carol, who *is* concerned about the writers but is equally 
concerned
> about the effects for all concerned of a prolonged strike

Magpie:
And I think it pretty easily can since we're talking about 
establishing this into the future, period. 

It just seems like the effects a prolonged strike are understood by 
everyone going into it. It's supposed to be a wait-out with the 
workers agreeing to stick together so they can get what they want 
because they believe in what they're going for. If it was just 
understood that you stopped striking when you realized you'd lose 
income by not working, there would be little point to the strike. 
They're willing to make the sacrifice because the rewards are 
important. I admire people for making that commitment--I don't think 
they did it lightly. 

-m




From mcrudele78 at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 16 22:00:03 2008
From: mcrudele78 at yahoo.com (Mike)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 22:00:03 -0000
Subject: Happy Birthday, Mike!
In-Reply-To: <683732.53244.qm@web25809.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <fmlup3+3b16@eGroups.com>

> Mary Ann:
>
> Have a good one, Mike!  We're not just here for the
> food and fortified butterbeer...honest!  *hic* ;)
> 
> Mary Ann, passing Sheryll a hot toddy

Mike:
Thanks Mary Ann!

Say, How's your Baroque kitchen coming along? Have you got it finished? 
Or did you bake up some of those Vodka Mousse Eclairs for your workmen, 
figuring that would be a onetime treat and instead they drug out the 
remodeling forever, hoping to con you into a second batch? ;D

Mike, thanking Sheryll for not bringing up my Red Wings loss to her 
Senators on my birthday :(




From heidi8 at gmail.com  Wed Jan 16 21:53:52 2008
From: heidi8 at gmail.com (Heidi Tandy)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 16:53:52 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: HP & DH Movie
In-Reply-To: <fmlqt4+ek88@eGroups.com>
References: <fmlqt4+ek88@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <1200520437.168C5B3A@dj11.dngr.org>


On Wed, 16 Jan 2008 12:55 pm, Carol wrote:
>
> Because it relates to copyright law, the topic that started this
> discussion in the first place. It *is* the government's or the court's
> place to determine who owns the rights to a writer's work,


Not really. The government has already decided that a person owns the 
work he or she creates (like I own the content of this email) unless he 
or she assigns or licenses that work away. The government doesn't have 
anything else to do with that, other than to step in with an arbitration 
method (the courts) in cases of breach or fraud.

The government can step in if either party in a union-negotiating 
situation isn't doing so fairly or in violation of labor laws or 
anti-monopoly laws and regulations, though.

- heidi



From s_ings at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 16 22:04:17 2008
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 17:04:17 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Happy Birthday, Mike!
In-Reply-To: <fmlup3+3b16@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <468775.38491.qm@web63409.mail.re1.yahoo.com>


--- Mike <mcrudele78 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> 
> Mike, thanking Sheryll for not bringing up my Red
> Wings loss to her 
> Senators on my birthday :(
> 
Sheryll:

Despite living in Ottawa, I am NOT a Sens fan. Long
time Flyers fan here! On the other hand, my daughter
would delight in bad mouthing any team that plays the
Sens. Except maybe Caps, who kicked the Sens a** last
night for the 4th time. :D

Sheryll, who's going to miss the last Sens/Flyers game
here by being in Texas *sigh*


      Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail.  Click on Options in Mail and switch to New Mail today or register for free at http://mail.yahoo.ca 



From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Wed Jan 16 23:15:12 2008
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 23:15:12 -0000
Subject: Catholic newspaper publishes debate about HP - what do people think?
In-Reply-To: <fmkk1b+q7uh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fmm360+c1j0@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" <tonks_op at ...> wrote:
>
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "susanmcgee48176" 
> <Schlobin@> wrote:
> >
> > Has anyone else been reading the stories about the debate about HP 
> in 
> > the Catholic press?
> > 
> > I'd love to hear people's thoughts.
> > 
> 
> Tonks:
> Interesting article. I had not been following the discussion if 
> there has been one. I can see the point of the man who fears a 
> Gnostic interpretation. That could happen. I don???t think that is the 
> way the author intended it, however. I think the message is very 
> clear and very simple, but I am rather shocked that people from the 
> Vatican of all places can???t see it.  But then the Vatican reported 
> on it, but the men in the debate were not from the Vatican. They 
> were a Doctor and a College professor. We do not know if they have 
> any theological training. I suspect not, or they would have seen the 
> obvious message of the book.
> 
> The difference between the Muggle world and the Wizard world is that 
> the Wizard is a person who is aware of the spiritual world and the 
> deeper truth that exist around them. All of the monks that I know 
> just love the HP books.  Anyone with any theological training should 
> be able to see what Harry became. It just jumps right off the page.  
> He is Everyman (each of us) transformed into Christ. 

Geoff:
Sorry, but I'm going to disagree with you.

As a Christian, I have argued on many occasions that Harry is a Everyman. 
He is like a Christian on his or her journey through life.

I believe as an evangelical that no mortal person can be Christ or a Christ
figure. Jesus is God in human form. He alone is immortal and can forgive 
sin. We, as believers, can be Christ-like as we try to live according to what 
Jesus taught. We will be transformed only when we leave his life.




From s.hayes at qut.edu.au  Wed Jan 16 23:21:49 2008
From: s.hayes at qut.edu.au (Sharon Hayes)
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 09:21:49 +1000
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Brad Renfro Dead at Age 25
In-Reply-To: <fmls7t+fjjh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3EBC8113FA09F449B6CC44C847E510911CE0261C62@QUTEXMBX02.qut.edu.au>

Geoff:
There is a perception, over here in the UK, that the young UK stars -
people like Dan, Rupert, Emma, Tom Felton, Matthew Lewis, Jamie Bell
and others, take a much more down-to-earth and level headed approach
to fame than some of the US guys who seem to get carried away by all
the hoopla surrounding them. I've certainly seen several interviews in
the last year or so and have been impressed by the way in which they
have handled matters.

Dan Radcliffe in many ways is incredibly unfazed by everything. I might
point you to a superb interview he did for "The Observer" just before
he opened in "Equus" last February which I think is one of the best I've
seen about him.

It's still available on the net at:
http://arts.guardian.co.uk/theatre/drama/story/0,,2009702,00.html

Sharon:
Thanks for the link. That interview was excellent. Dan certainly seems to have a head on his shoulders. I like the way he is careful about doing things that may be photographed and interpreted the wrong way. I would have loved to have seen Equus, but here in the backwater, nothing like that ever comes.  Is it going to NYC at all do you know?


Sharon:



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From n2fgc at arrl.net  Wed Jan 16 23:29:20 2008
From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Lee Storm(God Is The Healing Force))
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 18:29:20 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: TV to watch during the strike
In-Reply-To: <96465.20715.qm@web63409.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000301c85897$9f18fca0$67a4a8c0@FRODO>

Okay, I've got to admit I'm retro, and most of what I watch is in DVD or
VHS.

Amazing Stories
Battlestar Galactica (The Original)
Emergency (Remember that one?)
Lost In Space
Night Gallery
Outer Limits (The newer ones are fair)
Stargate SG1 (up to Season 7)
Star Trek (TOS, Animated, most of TNG, the first two seasons of DS9, and
Voyager)
Some of Tails From The Dark Side
Twilight Zone (Originals are the best, but some of the later ones are okay.)

Other than that, it's news, medical documentaries, Myth Busters and stuff
like that.

I gave up on Sitcoms when old-fashioned values went on the decrease and
sexual innuendo and other things went on the increase.  I don't enjoy
programs with dysfunctional characters.

I know..I'm probably boring, right?  That's okay. :-)

Cheers,

Lee :-)





From gav_fiji at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 16 23:36:41 2008
From: gav_fiji at yahoo.com (Goddlefrood)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 23:36:41 -0000
Subject: TV to watch during the strike
In-Reply-To: <96465.20715.qm@web63409.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <fmm4e9+n6j8@eGroups.com>

> Sheryll:

> Our favourites here, aside from any you've mentioned
> already, include:
> 
> 24
> Oz
> King of the Hill
> Futurama
> CSI (as long as it's not CSI:Miami)
> Lost
> M*A*S*H*
> House

Goddlefrood:

I agree about CSI: Miami, it's quite useless and any 
decent defence lawyer would have all, or just about 
all, those arrested acquitted. Really sloppy work 
from that lab and far too much of the lead.

Sheryll:
> Oh, gosh - add Rome to the list, that's a brilliant
> one!

Goddlefrood:

Odd you mention this, as I've just been lent it by a 
friend of mine.

*RAYOR*

Here in the depths of the South Pacific the effects of 
the writer's strike will take an awfully long time to 
take effect. There is only one, count them, one free-
to-air channel and only around another 10 available on 
satellite. Cable is something that connects phones to 
those of us in these tropical islands.

However, the pirates do a roaring trade in DVDs and I 
also purchase and get sent a number of shows to watch 
on original DVDs. My tastes tend to go for older shows 
such as:

Hawaii Five-O
The Munsters
Magnum PI
Columbo
Blackadder
Father Ted

etc. and BBC or Channel 4 made for TV films like Endurance, 
Longitude or Sword of Honour.

Maybe the BBC will benefit from the writer's strike, as will 
the TV and film industries of a good number of other countries. 
There's plenty of good, not North American, programs and films 
out there.

Who knows, perhaps the final Potter film / films (but why make 
it two except to cash in on a wealthgiving franchise?) might 
be an entirely British production, including the writing.

Goddlefrood, looking forward to more of The Munsters first 
season this evening.




From pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no  Thu Jan 17 01:52:25 2008
From: pengolodh_sc at yahoo.no (=?iso-8859-1?q?Christian_Stub=F8?=)
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 01:52:25 -0000
Subject: TV to watch during the strike
In-Reply-To: <672025.7220.qm@web90415.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <fmmccp+joha@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter, kemper mentor wrote:
>
> Here are some suggestions you may be able to find at your
> local library, storefront or online video/dvd store:
> 
[snip]
Since you include science-fiction, I nominate a favourite of mine: 
Babylon 5.  It's available online, at least - I'm not sure about how 
common it is to find in most shops.  For those in Region 1, there 
aren't that many options for how much to buy at a time; it seems to 
be better available in Region 2.

Those having a thing for British murder mysteries might want to have 
a go at Morse, or Inspector Lewis, a sequel to Morse - both are out 
both in Regions 1 and 2.  I just got the DVD-set with the first four 
episodes of Lewis, and it is very enjoyable.  The occasional name-
dropping of Morse aside, it stands quite well on its own, and the 
developing relationship of now Detective Inspector Lewis and his 
Sergeant Hathaway is nice to watch.

And Miss Marple - the 1984-1992 version with the late Joan Hickson 
OBE (which I much prefer to Geraldine McEwan in this role) is out on 
DVD, in both regions.  David Suchet's interpretation of Poirot for 
ITV is also available - there I prefer the earlier seasons.

Best regards
Christian Stub?




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 17 02:03:01 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 02:03:01 -0000
Subject: HP & DH Movie
In-Reply-To: <1200520437.168C5B3A@dj11.dngr.org>
Message-ID: <fmmd0l+v6od@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Heidi Tandy <heidi8 at ...> wrote:
Carol earlier:
> >
> > Because it relates to copyright law, the topic that started this
discussion in the first place. It *is* the government's or the court's
place to determine who owns the rights to a writer's work,
> 
Heidi responded: 
> Not really. The government has already decided that a person owns
the work he or she creates (like I own the content of this email)
unless he or she assigns or licenses that work away. The government
doesn't have anything else to do with that, other than to step in with
an arbitration method (the courts) in cases of breach or fraud.
> 
> The government can step in if either party in a union-negotiating
situation isn't doing so fairly or in violation of labor laws or 
anti-monopoly laws and regulations, though.
> 

Carol responds:

If that's the case and the writers already own the rights to their
work, including those related to the Internet, why not just take the
producers to court for violating copyright law? My understanding was
that this was a new situation, not covered under existing law (just as
fanfic isn't covered under the existing fair use doctrine).

The whole point of the strike, as I understand it, is that the
writers' rights are being violated, and the strike isn't resolving
that problem.

Carol, wondering whether Hollywood writers, like teachers, can join a
professional organization that doesn't strike in preference to a union
(in the case of teachers, the AFT is a union and the NEA, of which I
was a member, is not) 




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 17 02:30:20 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 02:30:20 -0000
Subject: Catholic newspaper publishes debate about HP - what do people think?
In-Reply-To: <fmm360+c1j0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fmmejs+4go6@eGroups.com>

Geoff wrote:
> Sorry, but I'm going to disagree with you.
> 
> As a Christian, I have argued on many occasions that Harry is a
Everyman. He is like a Christian on his or her journey through life.
> 
> I believe as an evangelical that no mortal person can be Christ or a
Christ figure. Jesus is God in human form. He alone is immortal and
can forgive sin. We, as believers, can be Christ-like as we try to
live according to what Jesus taught. We will be transformed only when
we leave his life.
>
Carol responds:

I think we need to look at what Professor Rialti is saying, which is,
IMO, absurd:

To quote the article:
"First, he said, the books teach that "evil is good," and that
violence, lying, trickery and manipulation can be positive if used to
obtain something good."

Carol comments:
I suppose that his position is based on Harry's use of the
unforgiveables in DH, but the point isn't developed, so I'm not sure.

Article continued:

"But the deeper problem, he [Rialti] said, is that the books advocate
gnosticism, the idea that a select elite can develop special powers
and gifts through specialized knowledge that is hidden from most
mortals -- or "muggles," as normal humans are called in Rowling's books."

Carol comments:
That last idea, that special knowledge can enable an elite to develop
special powers and gifts, shows a misunderstanding of the books, in
which no Muggle can learn magic and those who are born with the gift
are taught to control it. (That Voldemort and the DEs abuse the gift
has nothing to do wit Gnosticism or any esoteric knowledge having
given them the power in the first place. Voldemort isn't Faust.)

While it's possible to present an alternate Christian interpretation
(Harry as Christ figure or Geoff's Harry as Everyman), I think that
Rialti's opponent's argument that the books are about love and
friendship and self-sacrifice might be more persuasive for readers who
don't want to see religious (or anti-religious implications) at all.

Or we could react as Msgr. Peter Fleetwood did to an earlier attacker
of the HP books, as cited in the same article:

"Msgr. Fleetwood told Catholic News Service in 2005 that he received a
copy of the book in 2003 and wrote Kuby [the author of another book
suggesting that the HP series is dangerous] a four-page letter
explaining where he thought she may have misunderstood or read too
much into the books. He said he never heard back from her.

"Msgr. Fleetwood said the most appropriate way to judge Harry Potter
is not on the basis of theology, but according to the criteria of
children's literature and whether children will read the books willingly."

I thought that response was eminently reasonable and appropriate for
all readers, Christian or otherwise.

Carol, who thinks that the article presents a balanced approach to the
argument, but it's significant that Msgr. Fleetwood has the last word




From drdara at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 17 02:41:32 2008
From: drdara at yahoo.com (danielle dassero)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 18:41:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] TV to watch during the strike
Message-ID: <333067.70273.qm@web60722.mail.yahoo.com>

Kyle XY is good too, and it is showing new episodes on ABC family now yay

HBO's Big Love is good too

Danielle


----- Original Message ----
From: kemper mentor <kempermentor at yahoo.com>
To: hpfgu otchatter <hpfgu-otchatter at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 10:17:22 AM
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] TV to watch during the strike

Here are some suggestions you may be able to find at your local library, storefront or online video/dvd store:

24
30 Rock
Arrested Development
Avatar the Last Airbender
Battlestar Galatica
Curb Your Enthusiasm
Dead Like Me
Deadwood
Dexter
Entourage
Extras
Freaks and Geeks
Heroes
The Office (I prefer US version; don't hate me UK)
Queer as Folk
Rescue Me
Sex and The City
Six Feet Under
Star Gates (One and Atlantis)
and
Star Treks (Various Inceptions)
Weeds
The Wire
X-Files

____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
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know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile. yahoo.com/ ;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR 8HDtDypao8Wcj9tA cJ 





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From OctobersChild48 at aol.com  Thu Jan 17 06:05:44 2008
From: OctobersChild48 at aol.com (OctobersChild48 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 01:05:44 EST
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: TV to watch during the strike
Message-ID: <c7a.27726004.34c04a38@aol.com>

 
In a message dated 1/16/2008 6:37:13 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
gav_fiji at yahoo.com writes:

Goddlefrood, looking forward to more of The Munsters first 
season  this evening.



Sandy:
Omigod! I just LOVE the Munsters! It is one of my all  time favorite tv 
shows. It took me years to get them all on tape by taping them  myself. I now have 
both seasons on DVD. I never get tired of watching them.  Bewitched is another 
favorite, but I only have the first season on DVD. I have  the first five 
seasons of Columbo on DVD and watched all my favorite episodes  just yesterday. I 
don't have Hawaii Five O, but I loved it and will have to look  for it. I 
watched Magnum when it was aired, and have a few episodes on tape.  While I 
really like it, right now there are other shows I would rather spend my  money on. 
Another of my all time favorite shows is McMillan and Wife. I have  most of 
them on tape, taping them myself over the years, but I have not been  able to 
find them on DVD. Something I would kill for is the BBC series Henry  VIII 
starring Keith Michell. I have found them but they are waaayyy out of my  price 
range. I'm with you, Goddlefrood, I love the old shows from the 60's and  70's. 
The list of ones I want goes on and on.
 
Sandy



**************Start the year off right.  Easy ways to stay in shape.     
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From OctobersChild48 at aol.com  Thu Jan 17 07:52:50 2008
From: OctobersChild48 at aol.com (OctobersChild48 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 02:52:50 EST
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: HP & DH Movie
Message-ID: <cfa.272193a7.34c06352@aol.com>

In a message dated 1/16/2008 2:13:39 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
justcarol67 at yahoo.com writes:

The  trouble with strikes, IMO, is that they hurt the very people who
are asking  for "peanuts," depriving them and their families of needed
income,  customers of needed services (in the case of teacher's
strikes, depriving  students of an education if the strike is
extended), and, in the case of  the writers' strike, extending to
people in related industries. All for the  sake of a complicated,
Internet-related problem that, IMO, ought to be  resolved without a
strike. The writers are not helping themselves or anyone  else by
striking because they can't earn an income when they're on the  picket
line, and they can't even write at home, as I understand it,  without
violating their union contract.

Surely, a writer's rights  include the right to write. That's what they
do. That's how they earn their  living. And, regardless of the validity
of their claim to the use of their  work <snip>
 
Sandy responds:
 
You don't seem to understand that it can't be resolved  without a strike. If 
it could be the writers would not be striking. And the  writers most certainly 
*are* helping themselves. I see that I presented it wrong  by using the 
terminology that they are asking for peanuts. Yes, they have a  right to write, but 
they also have the right to be fairly compensated for it.  The claim to the 
use of their work is as valid as any I know. They are being  ripped off and 
they have a right to take a stance against that. They are making  the sacrifice 
of not working now to better secure their future. As I said in a  previous 
post, a strike catches nobody by surprise - you do have time to prepare  for it. 
And you do get strike pay. And when you are on strike you do not walk  the 
picket line 24/7.  It is there 24/7 but the workers only walk it  several hours a 
day and then a new shift takes over. This affords the strikers  the 
opportunity to have a temporary job until the dispute is settled. No, they  can't do 
their normal jobs, but they can flip burgers or wait tables or  whatever. Many of 
us where I work already had temporary jobs lined up this past  Fall when our 
strike was pending. 
 
Carol:
 
As for the idea expressed by Kemper that failing to honor the strike
is  "treachery," I think that word is more than a bit strong,
especially if they  have no other means of earning a living. (Ever try
to live on unemployment  benefits? Are strikers even entitled to them?)
 
Sandy:
 
I don't consider the word strong at all. The union and  striking is all about 
solidarity. Everyone working towards the common goal. I  have lived on 
unemployment, and no, strikers are not entitled to it, but I was  better off with 
the unemployment than nothing at all, just like the strikers are  better off 
with strike pay than nothing at all. Do you think these people *want*  to be on 
strike? I can assure you that they don't. But they have been backed  into a 
place where it is their only option. Why is that so hard for you to  understand? 
It is up to the union members as to how long they are willing to  strike. They 
can vote to accept what is being offered at any time. The union  keeps them 
updated and allows them that opportunity. Whatever the sacrifices  they are 
currently making it must be worth it to them to stand strong and not  back down. 
It is the only tool they have.
 
Sandy







**************Start the year off right.  Easy ways to stay in shape.     
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From jnferr at gmail.com  Thu Jan 17 13:36:17 2008
From: jnferr at gmail.com (Janette)
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 07:36:17 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: TV to watch during the strike
In-Reply-To: <fmlm1a+1pb8@eGroups.com>
References: <b6e131bf0801160945r4d01db53n8280c5cd46ca3553@mail.gmail.com>
	 <fmlm1a+1pb8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8ee758b40801170536q7c47c251t73ad2e9ed1f7c50d@mail.gmail.com>

>
> Carol, who sometimes forgets that she owns a TV and almost never
> listens to the radio (lousy reception and no decent stations)


montims:
now I listen to BBC Radio 4 on my computer as often as I can.  I am addicted
to the Archers Omnibus on Sunday, but love their plays, comedy, quizzes, and
other shows...  Recommended!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From macloudt at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Jan 17 18:01:34 2008
From: macloudt at yahoo.co.uk (Mary Ann Jennings)
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 18:01:34 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Happy Birthday, Mike!
Message-ID: <357927.88212.qm@web25806.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

>>>Mike:

Thanks Mary Ann!

Say, How's your Baroque kitchen coming along? Have you
got it finished? 
Or did you bake up some of those Vodka Mousse Eclairs
for your workmen, 
figuring that would be a onetime treat and instead
they drug out the 
remodeling forever, hoping to con you into a second
batch? ;D<<<

Mary Ann:

Hee, Mike, my kitchen's not as "Baroque"/broke as it
used to be but it's still not finished.  Our friend,
who's going to finish the work on the kitchen, is
having a helluva time in his own house; in December
there was a bad leak in his bathroom resulting in his
kitchen ceiling collapsing and earlier this week,
during the usual UK winter rainstorms, his roof sprung
several leaks.  The poor guy's having no better luck
with his runt of a house than we're having with ours. 
I'm not superstitious but, man oh man, I hope that
"everything happens in threes" doesn't happen in this
case.  I fear that would mean his entire house blowing
up!

Mary Ann, who sees house renovations as an extreme
form of masochism, and wishes she actually had a
recipe for Vodka Mousse Eclairs because she
desperately needs one






From kempermentor at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 17 19:53:35 2008
From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kemper mentor)
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 11:53:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: HP & DH Movie
Message-ID: <403200.44650.qm@web90407.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


Carol earlier:

 
... 
 
Surely, a writer's rights include the right to write. That's what they

 do. That's how they earn their living. 

Kemper now:
The writer can write.  They can't sell their scripts (movie,tv,radio) at this time nor can they work on theirs or others already existing, purchased ones.
They can sell their poetry, short stories, essays, recipes, etc.
I find it hard to believe that any writer goes into the field without taking economic risk (unless born/grown/given into money).  They chose their field, their art over the safety of becoming a well paid nurse (best paid job for the least (in time) amount of education).  Or an actuary.  Or an electrician.  Or an instructor. Or an occupational therapist.  Or an underwater welder.

 Carol cont.:
 As for the idea expressed by Kemper that failing to honor the strike

 is "treachery," I think that word is more than a bit strong,

 especially if they have no other means of earning a living. 

Kemper now:
A carnation by any other name would still look ugly.
No offense to carnation lovers of the world, florists, and botanists.

Carol cont.:
(Ever try
to live on unemployment benefits? Are strikers even entitled to them?)


Kemper now:
Yes. No.  But they and I could get part-time employment to supplement my UI and their strike pay.

Carol closes:
 Carol, more concerned about the writers' right to eat and pay their

 bills and put their kids through college than about their rights to

 subsidies that would only marginally increase their income

 

Kemper now:
The writers apparently have different concerns, teaching their kids (if they got any) how to live within a budget and how to stand up for themselves.

Kemper, who loves Snape but can see him crossing a strike... Slytherin and all :)
 





      ____________________________________________________________________________________
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Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.  http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping



From snapes_witch at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 17 22:02:19 2008
From: snapes_witch at yahoo.com (Elizabeth Snape)
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 22:02:19 -0000
Subject: TV to watch during the strike
In-Reply-To: <fmmccp+joha@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fmoj9b+immm@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Christian Stub? 
<pengolodh_sc at ...> wrote:
>
 
> Those having a thing for British murder mysteries might want to 
have 
> a go at Morse, or Inspector Lewis, a sequel to Morse - both are out 
> both in Regions 1 and 2.  I just got the DVD-set with the first 
four 
> episodes of Lewis, and it is very enjoyable.  The occasional name-
> dropping of Morse aside, it stands quite well on its own, and the 
> developing relationship of now Detective Inspector Lewis and his 
> Sergeant Hathaway is nice to watch.
> 
> And Miss Marple - the 1984-1992 version with the late Joan Hickson 
> OBE (which I much prefer to Geraldine McEwan in this role) is out 
on 
> DVD, in both regions.  David Suchet's interpretation of Poirot for 
> ITV is also available - there I prefer the earlier seasons.
> 
> Best regards
> Christian Stub?
>

To the above British mysteries I'd like to add the Granada Sherlock 
Holmes series (1982-1994) starring the late Jeremy Brett.  His 
eccentric interpretation of Holmes is controversial to some, but to 
me he's the best Holmes ever.  Certainly the post-Granada actors 
don't measure up.

Snape's Witch





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Fri Jan 18 02:05:48 2008
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 02:05:48 -0000
Subject: TV to watch during the strike
In-Reply-To: <8ee758b40801170536q7c47c251t73ad2e9ed1f7c50d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <fmp1hs+j6fq@eGroups.com>


> montims:
> now I listen to BBC Radio 4 on my computer as often as I can.  I am addicted
> to the Archers Omnibus on Sunday, but love their plays, comedy, quizzes, and
> other shows...  Recommended!
> 
> 
Pippin:
The BBC radio website also has lovely British and world folk music.

And for those who have Netflix may I recommend a favorite
Britcom: Monarch of the Glen. 

Pippin






From Juliet7714 at aol.com  Fri Jan 18 02:45:04 2008
From: Juliet7714 at aol.com (juliet7714)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 02:45:04 -0000
Subject: HP Dumbledore's Army Bag Purse...so cute!
Message-ID: <fmp3rg+g12q@eGroups.com>

Hey guys,

Look at this cute bag I found on eBay...I thought it was super
cute and really unique. Has anyone else seen a bag like this?
Just wondering...

Here is the link

http://cgi.ebay.com/Harry-Potter-Dumbledores-Army-Bag-Purse_W0QQitemZ120211818492QQihZ002QQcategoryZ63852QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

or you can find it by search Harry Potter army bag

Let me know what you think!!

Juliet7714



From Debby970095 at aol.com  Fri Jan 18 03:53:08 2008
From: Debby970095 at aol.com (Debby970095 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 22:53:08 EST
Subject: Trailer for HBP
Message-ID: <bc2.1e3ace3b.34c17ca4@aol.com>

Ignore the non-English at the beginning. Sorry I do not know what language  
it is but it does go to English and has some neat things in it. I am getting  
excited already and the movie does not come out until November!!!
 
 
Debby
 
_Cine.gr - Harry  Potter and the Half-Blood Prince_ 
(http://www.cine.gr/film.asp?id=710326&page=8)  



**************Start the year off right.  Easy ways to stay in shape.     
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From Schlobin at aol.com  Fri Jan 18 07:35:43 2008
From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 07:35:43 -0000
Subject: Trailer for HBP
In-Reply-To: <bc2.1e3ace3b.34c17ca4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <fmpksf+jnam@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Debby970095 at ... wrote:
>
> Ignore the non-English at the beginning. Sorry I do not know what 
language  
> it is 


Isn't it Greek? (It's all greek to me).

Susan




From OctobersChild48 at aol.com  Fri Jan 18 08:49:12 2008
From: OctobersChild48 at aol.com (OctobersChild48 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 03:49:12 EST
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: TV to watch during the strike
Message-ID: <bd2.161e2b62.34c1c208@aol.com>

 
In a message dated 1/17/2008 5:02:59 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
snapes_witch at yahoo.com writes:

To the  above British mysteries I'd like to add the Granada Sherlock 
Holmes series  (1982-1994) starring the late Jeremy Brett. His 
eccentric interpretation  of Holmes is controversial to some, but to 
me he's the best Holmes ever.  Certainly the post-Granada actors 
don't measure up.

Snape's  Witch


 
Sandy:
 
Another series I love and taped most of the  episodes. Jeremy Brett was the 
best Holmes -  EVER. I was just crushed when  he died. I will have to look for 
this on DVD too. Another series mentioned that  I snipped is David Suchet's 
Poirot. I love that one too, and think he is the  best Poirot ever too. I taped 
a lot of those and I do have a couple on DVD. 
 
My VCR broke back in September after providing  me with 7 years of 
entertainment. It was like losing an old friend. But I  figured no big deal, I would 
just buy a new one. I couldn't believe they don't  make them anymore. I did get a 
used one because with over 350 tapes I continue  to use a VCR more than the 
DVD player. When my tax check rolls in I am buying a  combo player. One of the 
ones with all of the bells and whistles so I can  transfer as many tapes as 
possible to DVD. Some of my tapes are nearly 30 years  old and not in great 
shape, so if they can't be transferred I will just have to  buy DVD's to replace 
them. I got a good deal on discs so they are sitting here  waiting.
 
Sandy



**************Start the year off right.  Easy ways to stay in shape.     
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From drdara at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 19 00:54:32 2008
From: drdara at yahoo.com (danielle dassero)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 16:54:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: did Snape ever Believe..............
Message-ID: <641315.70100.qm@web60721.mail.yahoo.com>

Ok I am sure this has prolly been talked about in the main group, but I don't like posting there, people can be umm mean and no one responds to me or gives me credit for something. We all know that Snapes Worst Memory was called he called Lily a mudblood right. So after reading book 7 and I think someone on the leaky forum may have said this, reading the 3rd book has new meaning now, Snape hated Sirius not because of the Worst Memory scene or the Prank he played on Snape, instead Snape hated Sirius because he always believed Sirius was the secret keeper for the potters and Snape thought it was because of Sirius Lily died. Well I have to wonder if Snape ever got around to believing Harry that it was Wormtail who snitched and not Sirius. I wonder this for no other reason than wondering about. Snape would still have reason to hate Sirius, because Sirius thought of the switch to Wormtail. I mean just say that Snape did believe that Wormtail was the SK and
 the traitor, makes ya wonder how strong Snape is, cause I couldn't have standed have Wormtail in my house for a summer, I would have killed him before the end of the 1st day lol. Well those are my thoughts take or leave them, sorry if it has been talked to death already.

Danielle who wishes she had more potter nuts like herself to meet in person


      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page. 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs



From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Sat Jan 19 02:10:05 2008
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 02:10:05 -0000
Subject: did Snape ever Believe..............
In-Reply-To: <641315.70100.qm@web60721.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <fmrm5t+qgpc@eGroups.com>

Danielle:
 Well I have to wonder if Snape ever got around to believing Harry 
that it was Wormtail who snitched and not Sirius. I wonder this for 
no other reason than wondering about. Snape would still have reason 
to hate Sirius, because Sirius thought of the switch to Wormtail. I 
mean just say that Snape did believe that Wormtail was the SK and
>  the traitor, makes ya wonder how strong Snape is, cause I couldn't 
have standed have Wormtail in my house for a summer, I would have 
killed him before the end of the 1st day lol. Well those are my 
thoughts take or leave them, sorry if it has been talked to death 
already.

Magpie:
I think it was probably only because he found out Sirius wasn't the 
SK that Snape agreed to work with him at all--Snape probably went 
from hating Sirius to the point of wanting him dead to just hating 
him (the way he does in OotP where it's more about just their school 
hatred, the Prank, James, fighting--he also must have hated that 
Sirius wound up being friends with Lily, but at the same time he had 
to respect him because he was Lily's friend).

It was probably easier to deal with Wormtail since he was so cringing 
and under Voldemort's thumb--also I wonder if Snape spent all his 
anger on Sirius since he, Snape, was kicking *himself* for getting it 
wrong all those years, you know? Like his years of focusing on Sirius 
made him feel guilty in a weird way because the real SK was still out 
there.

-m




From s_ings at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 19 03:58:18 2008
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 22:58:18 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Belated Happy Birthday, Melbaluna!
Message-ID: <509907.70554.qm@web63402.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

*sneaks in quietly, hoping no one notices the elf
hastily hanging streamers and blowing up balloons*

I know, I know, I'm a day late on this one. And
cutting it close on the second day, too! How about we
blame it on me letting loose on a rare two days off
work in a row? 

Today's birthday honouree is Melbaluna. Birthday owls
can be sent care of this list or directly to:
holmesclan2002 at yahoo.com

*exits and comes back quickly pushing a trolley
overflowing with snacks and drinks*

Oh, wait, I nearly forgot!

*comes back with a towering cake covered with icing
flowers in many colours and varieties*

I hope you day was filled with fun, friends and magic.

Happy Birthday, Melbaluna!

Sheryll the Birthday Elf

Join the fun at Convention Alley 2008



      Get a sneak peak at messages with a handy reading pane with All new Yahoo! Mail: http://mail.yahoo.ca



From willsonkmom at msn.com  Sat Jan 19 13:08:13 2008
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 13:08:13 -0000
Subject: did Snape ever Believe..............
In-Reply-To: <641315.70100.qm@web60721.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <fmssnt+c7l9@eGroups.com>

 danielle dassero <drdara at ...> wrote:
>
> Ok I am sure this has prolly been talked about in the main group, 
but I don't like posting there, people can be umm mean and no one 
responds to me or gives me credit for something.

Potioncat:
Well, it's no fun if a post gets no replies. Most of us have had that 
happen. It's nice to have others add to your comments, but the real 
fun is when someone strongly disagrees and a good dialogue begins.

Danielle:
 We all know that Snapes Worst Memory was called he called Lily a 
mudblood right. So after reading book 7 and I think someone on the 
leaky forum may have said this, reading the 3rd book has new meaning 
now, Snape hated Sirius not because of the Worst Memory scene or the 
Prank he played on Snape, instead Snape hated Sirius because he 
always believed Sirius was the secret keeper for the potters and 
Snape thought it was because of Sirius Lily died. 

Potioncat:
I'm looking forward to reading the series over with all I know now. I 
think a lot of the bits and pieces will seem very different.

In PoA, we're given the impression that Snape's anger at Black is all 
about the Prank. Those of us who have always trusted Snape beleived 
his real motivation was protecting Harry. It's after DH that we know 
how much he had cared for Lily; that his anger over the betrayal is 
personal. It explains the hallway scene with Fudge where Snape is 
eager for Black to be taken. It explains the hospital scene when he 
loses it after he discovers Black is free. Imagine how he must have 
felt at that moment, thinking that Harry has just allowed Lily's 
traitor to go free.


Danielle:
Well I have to wonder if Snape ever got around to believing Harry 
that it was Wormtail who snitched and not Sirius. I wonder this for 
no other reason than wondering about. Snape would still have reason 
to hate Sirius, because Sirius thought of the switch to Wormtail.

Potioncat:
We get to OoP and there's still no less tension between Black and 
Snape. There's a few theories about that tension. <eg> We know now 
that no one knew anything. So possibly neither Black nor Snape knew 
why Black was confinded. Snape may have really thought Black had 
brought it on himself on purpose. Maybe Snape thought it was 
cowardice that motivated Black to suggest switching the SK to 
Wormtail.

Personally, I still don't get why DD couldn't have let Black go back 
to the tropics....I guess he thought Harry might go too.


Danielle:
 I mean just say that Snape did believe that Wormtail was the SK and
>  the traitor, makes ya wonder how strong Snape is, cause I couldn't 
have standed have Wormtail in my house for a summer, I would have 
killed him before the end of the 1st day lol. Well those are my 
thoughts take or leave them, sorry if it has been talked to death 
already.


Potioncat:
I think sharing his old home with Wormtail must have been horrible. 
Sucking up to the wizard (LV) who actually killed Lily must have been 
even worse. I always thought it took incredible courage to go back to 
LV as a spy; but he also had to hide his true emotions about Lily's 
death from LV. 

Which reminds me of LV's comment to Harry that Snape agreed there 
were more worthy witches than Lily. It's very possible that 
conversation really did happen---and may have been at the first 
meeting between Snape and LV at the end of GoF. How painful must that 
have been? 


I really think you should take this to the main list. Snape threads 
can get wild.     




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 19 16:39:10 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 16:39:10 -0000
Subject: HP & DH Movie
In-Reply-To: <cfa.272193a7.34c06352@aol.com>
Message-ID: <fmt93e+sdrk@eGroups.com>

Sandy:
<snip>
> It is the only tool they have.

Carol responds:

Then maybe Hollywood needs to be restructured, and real jobs that
don't require strikes to get fair compensation ought to be made
available to writers. If a writer works for a magazine, not freelance
but as an employee, he doesn't have to strike, does he? And, as I
said, teachers can belong to a professional organization or a union.
Writers, as professionals, ought to have the same choice. Strikes
began as a tool for manual laborers, not white-collar workers. And Big
Labor can be as corrupt as Big Business.

I'd appreciate not having my perspective belittled with "Why is that
so hard for you to understand?"

Carol, whose distaste for strikes has not abated one whit




From minnesotatiffany at hotmail.com  Sat Jan 19 18:25:27 2008
From: minnesotatiffany at hotmail.com (Tiffany B. Clark)
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 18:25:27 -0000
Subject: did Snape ever Believe..............
In-Reply-To: <fmssnt+c7l9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fmtfan+vbg1@eGroups.com>

> Danielle:
> 
Ok I am sure this has prolly been talked about in the main group, 
but I don't like posting there, people can be umm mean and no one 
responds to me or gives me credit for something.

Potioncat:
Well, it's no fun if a post gets no replies. Most of us have had that 
happen. It's nice to have others add to your comments, but the real 
fun is when someone strongly disagrees and a good dialogue begins.

<Snip>

Potioncat:
I really think you should take this to the main list. Snape threads 
can get wild.

Tiffany:

I agree, Snape's got a lot lovers & haters on the main list, so Snape 
threads can be quite fun, but expect to have a thick skin for it on 
the main list.  I think you've brought up some great points Danielle, 
& that the main list could have a ball with discussing it.  I don't 
know if what you, Danielle, mentioned was discussed on the main list 
or not, but if not then such a thread is a surefire way to get some 
replies.




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 19 19:53:08 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 19:53:08 -0000
Subject: did Snape ever Believe..............
In-Reply-To: <641315.70100.qm@web60721.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <fmtkf4+3r4o@eGroups.com>

danielle dassero wrote:
>
> <snip> I have to wonder if Snape ever got around to believing Harry
that it was Wormtail who snitched and not Sirius. I wonder this for no
other reason than wondering about. Snape would still have reason to
hate Sirius, because Sirius thought of the switch to Wormtail. I mean
just say that Snape did believe that Wormtail was the SK and the
traitor, makes ya wonder how strong Snape is, cause I couldn't have
standed have Wormtail in my house for a summer, I would have killed
him before the end of the 1st day lol. Well those are my thoughts take
or leave them, sorry if it has been talked to death already.

Carol responds:

Rather than responding to the responses, I'm coming back to the
original post, treating it as I would if it were on the main list,
canon and all, not to agree or disagree but to answer your question as
best I can. Yes, IMO, Snape did learn that Sirius was not the Secret
Keeper, even if he had to put the pieces together to arrive at that
distasteful conclusion. 

First, there's the testimony, under Snape's own highly effective
Veritaserum, of Barty Crouch Jr., who informs Dumbledore in Snape's
presence that Voldemort arrived at the Crouches' house late one night
"in the arms of his servant Wormtail" (GoF Am. ed. 687).  He also
hears of Wormtail's involvement in the death of Bertha Jorkins and the
kidnapping of Mad-Eye Moody (687-88). Assuming that Snape knows that
Wormtail is Pettigrew, he has to realize that he was wrong about
Sirius Black murdering Pettigrew and smart enough to start wondering
if the story about Pettigrew's being a rat Animagus is true, too. He
does not hear Harry's version of the events in the graveyard, but he
does see Sirius Black turning from a dog into a man in the hospital
wing, confirming that he was telling the truth about the Marauders
being Animagi. Dumbledore then informs him that they're on the same
side and sends Snape on the dangerous mission to return to Voldemort.
Surely, at that point, he encounters Wormtail, confirming that he, not
Sirius, was the traitor (and, by extension, the Secret Keeper).

When we finally see Snape and Wormtail together, Snape's contempt for
him is evident both in the way he orders him around and in his use of
the term "vermin" to describe him. (He also, of course, cannot have
failed to see the silver hand and, being Snape, obtained that story
from some source.)

Whether Snape learned the story of events in the graveyard from
Dumbledore or Voldemort or DEs like his friend Lucius Malfoy, he
clearly knew or had deduced the truth by the time of "Spinner's End."
For him to work with Black at all and attend meetings at his house, he
surely had to know that Black had not betrayed Lily to her death. Nor
would he have checked on "Padfoot's" whereabouts when Harry
communicated his vision to Snape in Umbridge's office unless he knew
the nicknames of the Marauders and most if not all of their story at
that point.

As for how strong Snape is, we know he's strong. He can block the
Legilimency of the darkest wizard in a hundred years (and we saw just
what that entails when Voldemort entered Gregorovitch's mind). And he
can fool everyone from the Malfoys to McGonagall into believing that
he's a loyal DE. (Even Bella was convinced after the death of DD or
she wouldn't have believed that Snape had sent her the real Sword of
Gryffindor.) So enduring the presence of Wormtail in his house, at the
same time abusing him psychologically as only Snape can, was, if not a
piece of cake, at least all in a day's work for our favorite Occlumens
and spy.

Carol, apologizing for the cliches and hoping that this post is clear

Carol




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Sat Jan 19 21:33:39 2008
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 21:33:39 -0000
Subject: Back to profiteroles
Message-ID: <fmtqbk+lfj4@eGroups.com>

Yesterday, my wife marked her 60th birthday. We 
came up to Crawley - 25 miles south of London - 
to join in a family celebration including a meal 
today at lunchtime in the Crawley Pizza Hut.

For pudding, I was able to order.... yes.... 
profiteroles; eight delicious cream filled 
spheres covered in chocolate sauce and lashings 
of whipped cream.

I thought of you lot and the thread we have had 
and felt I ought to offer a plate of virtual 
profiteroles on the group for your enjoyment.




From bekkio at gmail.com  Sat Jan 19 21:35:40 2008
From: bekkio at gmail.com (Bekki Olivieri)
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 13:35:40 -0800
Subject: Portus Call for Proposals Deadline approaching!
Message-ID: <561bdbfa0801191335v68751064nc0c4cd0e2e18deb7@mail.gmail.com>

Portus 2008: A Harry Potter Symposium will be accepting proposals for
Formal Programming through midnight CST on Monday, January 21, 2008.
Now is your chance to be a magical part of the 5th HP Education Fanon,
Inc. event, to be held July 10 - 13 in Dallas, Texas!

Proposals for presentations, panels, workshops, roundtables and
posters are being sought in the following areas:
*Literary and Media Studies
*Law, Politics, Ethics
*Social Sciences
*Education and Library Science
*Fandom Studies and Culture
*Fan Creativity

For topic ideas and submission directions, please visit the Portus
Call for Proposals at
http://www.portus2008.org/call_for_proposals.htm.

Bekki Olivieri
Minister of Magic, Portus 2008



From willsonkmom at msn.com  Sat Jan 19 21:51:52 2008
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 21:51:52 -0000
Subject: Back to profiteroles
In-Reply-To: <fmtqbk+lfj4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fmtrdo+tq16@eGroups.com>

 "Geoff Bannister" <gbannister10 at ...> wrote:
>
> Yesterday, my wife marked her 60th birthday. We 
> came up to Crawley - 25 miles south of London - 
> to join in a family celebration including a meal 
> today at lunchtime in the Crawley Pizza Hut.
> 
> For pudding, I was able to order.... yes.... 
> profiteroles; eight delicious cream filled 
> spheres covered in chocolate sauce and lashings 
> of whipped cream.

Potioncat:
Pizza Hut? I'm having a very hard time imagining Pizza Hut as I know it 
serving something so British as profiteroles.

Although, I have very fond memories of Pizza Hut the restaurant. Now in 
my area at least, it's often only for carry out or delivery.





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Sat Jan 19 22:54:10 2008
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 22:54:10 -0000
Subject: did Snape ever Believe..............
In-Reply-To: <fmrm5t+qgpc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fmtv2i+mohe@eGroups.com>

> Magpie:
> I think it was probably only because he found out Sirius wasn't the 
> SK that Snape agreed to work with him at all--Snape probably went 
> from hating Sirius to the point of wanting him dead to just hating 
> him (the way he does in OotP where it's more about just their school 
> hatred, the Prank, James, fighting--he also must have hated that 
> Sirius wound up being friends with Lily, but at the same time he had 
> to respect him because he was Lily's friend).
> 

Pippin:
I dunno, I can't see Snape respecting Sirius because he was Lily's
friend any more than Sirius ever respected Snape for that reason. 
I think he felt to the end that Sirius, like the other Marauders, was
completely unworthy of her.

Any respect he had for Sirius was probably as a wizard powerful
enough to do the Animagus charm, cunninng enough to conceal it
from Dumbledore for all those years, and daring enough to escape
from Azkaban. All very Slytherin traits, of course.<g>

Pippin




From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Sat Jan 19 23:11:31 2008
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 23:11:31 -0000
Subject: did Snape ever Believe..............
In-Reply-To: <fmtv2i+mohe@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fmu033+75o4@eGroups.com>

> > Magpie:
> > I think it was probably only because he found out Sirius wasn't 
the 
> > SK that Snape agreed to work with him at all--Snape probably went 
> > from hating Sirius to the point of wanting him dead to just 
hating 
> > him (the way he does in OotP where it's more about just their 
school 
> > hatred, the Prank, James, fighting--he also must have hated that 
> > Sirius wound up being friends with Lily, but at the same time he 
had 
> > to respect him because he was Lily's friend).

> Pippin:
> I dunno, I can't see Snape respecting Sirius because he was Lily's
> friend any more than Sirius ever respected Snape for that reason. 
> I think he felt to the end that Sirius, like the other Marauders, 
was
> completely unworthy of her.
> 
> Any respect he had for Sirius was probably as a wizard powerful
> enough to do the Animagus charm, cunninng enough to conceal it
> from Dumbledore for all those years, and daring enough to escape
> from Azkaban. All very Slytherin traits, of course.<g>

Magpie:
Sorry, I worded that badly. I didn't mean he had respect for Sirius 
the man, just that he had to respect that he was Lily's friend and 
not the guy who got her killed. 

-m




From OctobersChild48 at aol.com  Sun Jan 20 03:35:06 2008
From: OctobersChild48 at aol.com (OctobersChild48 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 22:35:06 EST
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: HP & DH Movie
Message-ID: <d08.287e3769.34c41b6a@aol.com>

Carol:

Then  maybe Hollywood needs to be restructured, and real jobs that
don't require  strikes to get fair compensation ought to be made
available to writers. If  a writer works for a magazine, not freelance
but as an employee, he doesn't  have to strike, does he? And, as I
said, teachers can belong to a  professional organization or a union.
Writers, as professionals, ought to  have the same choice. Strikes
began as a tool for manual laborers, not  white-collar workers. And Big
Labor can be as corrupt as Big  Business.

I'd appreciate not having my perspective belittled with "Why  is that
so hard for you to understand?"

Carol, whose distaste for  strikes has not abated one whit
 
Sandy responds:
 
I don't have the time or inclination to break this down  sentence by sentence 
so I will respond in totale. 
 
My intention was not to belittle your perspective,  as I hope it was not your 
intention to belittle me with your above  statement, although I feel like you 
have. And my emotions are running high right  now so I need to keep myself in 
check.
 
What makes the writers so much better than me, or any  other working person 
for that matter? I am a union worker who in the very recent  past was faced 
with a strike and just lucky enough to have it averted at the  very last minute. 
I take offense at your statement "real jobs that don't require  strikes to get 
fair compensation ought to be made available to writers." Real  jobs that 
don't require strikes to get fair compensation ought to be available  to 
*everyone*. What makes the writers so special? My take on this statement,  including 
the white-collar comment, is that it is okay for me, the lowly cashier  at your 
local grocery store to go on strike, because after all I am only a  manual 
laborer, but the writers are so far above that. The writers are on strike  
because they belong to a union, and they belong to a union because somewhere  along 
the line they decided they needed a union to represent their fair  interests. 
Unions don't just walk into a workplace and take over; they have to  be 
allowed in, and the workers are the ones who allow them. 
 
I can't argue with Big Labor corruption, nor am I trying  to. The union I 
belong to, while not corrupt, is just as money-grubbing as the  company I work 
for. I don't particularly enjoy paying the dues that I do. But  without the 
union I would be making minimum wage and have no benefit package at  all, just 
like all of the employees at the store across the street from the one  I work at. 
With the union I make a good wage, have medical benefits, paid  holidays, 
paid vacation and a pension. It's too bad the unions are not in every  workplace 
where minimum wage and no benefits are the norm. For whatever reason,  the 
writers felt they needed a union, regardless of for whom and why unions were  
originally formed. 
 
I have no problem with your distaste for strikes, nor am  I asking you to 
embrace them. I don't like them either. I am merely trying to  point out that 
there are times they just can't be avoided, which I feel you  really don't seem 
to understand. My intention has not been to offend but rather  to enlighten. 
This is a situation that hits close to home for me. No one  wants to go on 
strike, and they don't unless there is no other option. Having  high ideals gets 
you nowhere, nor does waiting for your employer to do the right  thing on their 
own. And putting workers into different classes only muddies the  water. 
 
Sandy, who wishes unions and strikes were not necessary,  buy who knows 
better.
 
 








**************Start the year off right.  Easy ways to stay in shape.     
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From drdara at yahoo.com  Sun Jan 20 03:53:12 2008
From: drdara at yahoo.com (danielle dassero)
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 19:53:12 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Why Some People Don't like HP
Message-ID: <957129.81974.qm@web60725.mail.yahoo.com>

I have a new theory (new to me anyways)von why people don't like HP. While there are many books that have good and evil sides and have those that skirt the lines, like Umbridge, there are few books that are mass marketed to children that teach it. HP in a way are tooo similiar to the real world. In Harry's world he learns that not everyone is classified as good or DE. He learns that even those on the side of good can be evil and vice versa. Take Snape, he was a fould, loathsome, smelly, greasy git, but that wasn't the only side to Snape. He was also on the side of good for many reasons. I am thinking there are a lot of people out there that only want to believe there is good and there is evil ie God vs the Devil. They don't like the idea that there is much gray area in the world and they certaintly don't want their kids learning that or thinking that. Of course I have always believed in the  gray areas of the world. I learned a long time ago not
 everything fits neatly into a box. The world of HP doesn't fit into a box in so many ways. When I first heard of HP, I thought oh a childrens book and that it didn't sound like anything I would be interested in, but it did make my blood boil at the thought of people wanting to ban it. Then in 2001 I finally succumbed lol. There was sooooooo much talk about I had to read it and see what the fuss was all about. I checked out books 1,3 and 4 and placed 2 on hold at my local library. I read chapter 1 and was just hooked in, for that reason book 1 will always be my favorite as it is the introduction to a new world. I was mad too cause I ended up waiting a week to get book 2 after finishing book 1 and I have to read a series in order, at least the 1st time around. Now 7 yrs later, its one of my favorite series to read, I think I have read it as much as the Little House in the Woods Series by Laura Ingalls Wilder and possibly maybe more, I had that series in
 paperback and in less than a year i had to tape the bindings because I read them so much. I still have those books too, wow more than 20 yrs they have graced my bookshelf. HP is like that, they will grace my shelf 20 or yrs too. I can't wait to have children, can't wait till they are old enough to read the books for themselves. I just wish people would keep their noses out of my books, while I respect their rights to not want to read a book, why can't they respect mine to want to read a book and talk to other people about.

Danielle


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From tonks_op at yahoo.com  Sun Jan 20 04:58:41 2008
From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks)
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 04:58:41 -0000
Subject: Catholic newspaper publishes debate about HP - what do people think?
In-Reply-To: <fmm360+c1j0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fmuke1+7vp7@eGroups.com>

> Geoff:
> Sorry, but I'm going to disagree with you.
> 
> As a Christian, I have argued on many occasions that Harry is a 
Everyman. He is like a Christian on his or her journey through life. 
> I believe as an evangelical that no mortal person can be Christ or 
a Christ figure. Jesus is God in human form. He alone is immortal 
and can forgive sin. We, as believers, can be Christ-like as we try 
to live according to what Jesus taught. We will be transformed only 
when we leave his life.


Tonks:
That is part of what I am saying. Harry is Everyman on his journey, 
yes. And the journey for each Christian is to "become Christ". That 
is not the same as the Gnostic ideas. Christian Monasticism has 
always had as the goal for the individual to become so united to God 
as to become like Christ. Some call that ???becoming Christ???. 

If you read very careful in the last part of DH, you will see that 
happening to Harry. Harry makes the choice to die. (The Christian 
monk is told to die to self, the ego.)If you read on in DH you see 
Hagrid carrying Harry as if the scene were a Pieta. And later Hagrid 
(the Keeper of the Keys) is the one who says "where is Harry?" (Like 
the people at the tomb) and later everyone screams "He???s alive!" 
This is a death and resurrection scene. And throughout the books we 
see the step by step way in which Harry is transformed 
(transfigured) into Christ. Harry is not THE Christ. (Jesus is THE 
Christ, and only Jesus.) Harry is what every Christian is to become. 
The classic progression in the spiritual life is to go through 
different stages until ones comes to what is called the mystical 
marriage. (No, this is not Gnosticism.) At this point the person is 
one with God and their behavior looks a lot like that of Jesus. The 
Saints of the church were the ones who arrived at this point in this 
life. The progress in the spiritual life is not completed in this 
life, even for them. This is what is meant by becoming Christ. Call 
it being like Christ if you wish, means the same to most of us. 

Tonks_op






From tonks_op at yahoo.com  Sun Jan 20 05:20:51 2008
From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks)
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 05:20:51 -0000
Subject: TV to watch during the strike
In-Reply-To: <bd2.161e2b62.34c1c208@aol.com>
Message-ID: <fmulnj+3oe8@eGroups.com>

There is a strike? ;-)

Seriously. I watch TV while on the computer so I am only half 
watching most of the time. I watched Letterman for a couple of weeks 
before I started to say to myself, "is this a rerun?"  Then I turned 
over to Leno and gosh he looked younger. lol. It took me a while to 
figure all of this out. Guess that shows how much I pay attention to 
what I do watch. 

As to reality TV. I am not too keen on that either. I do like the 
Biggest Loser, because I am overweight and that show is an 
inspiration. Out of desperation one night, once I realized that 
there was a strike and all the shows I was watching were reruns, I 
went over to NBC and watched the Apprentice, I think that is what it 
was. It didn't keep my attention. Most of those reality shows are 
boring. I want escape. I am SICK of all of these medical shows too. 
The last thing I want to watch and have seep into my subconscious 
mind is all of the sickness on TV. Uck. Why are they so popular?

Tonks_op 




From tonks_op at yahoo.com  Sun Jan 20 05:43:59 2008
From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks)
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 05:43:59 -0000
Subject: Why Some People Don't like HP
In-Reply-To: <957129.81974.qm@web60725.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <fmun2v+vflb@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, danielle dassero 
<drdara at ...> wrote:
>
> I have a new theory (new to me anyways)von why people don't like 
HP. While there are many books that have good and evil sides and 
have those that skirt the lines, like Umbridge, there are few books 
that are mass marketed to children that teach it. HP in a way are 
tooo similiar to the real world. In Harry's world he learns that not 
everyone is classified as good or DE. He learns that even those on 
the side of good can be evil and vice versa. Take Snape, he was a 
fould, loathsome, smelly, greasy git, but that wasn't the only side 
to Snape. He was also on the side of good for many reasons. I am 
thinking there are a lot of people out there that only want to 
believe there is good and there is evil ie God vs the Devil. They 
don't like the idea that there is much gray area in the world and 
they certaintly don't want their kids learning that or thinking 
that. 

Tonks:
Your theory has some merit. The people who are opposed to the books 
are mostly the right wing Christian Fundamentalists. Now you have to 
understand how they think and why, IMO, they chose that type of 
Christianity. 

There are developmental phases of childhood. One of them is called 
the Latency phase. During this time, usually ages 7 to 12, the child 
sees the world in terms of black and white. And it is important for 
everyone to follow all the same rules, because if they didn???t, on a 
subconscious level, it would create anxiety in the child that they 
too might step out of line. Later the person grows, matures and 
comes to see, as most of us do, that the world is not all black and 
white, good and evil. And the mature adult is able to follow their 
own inner guild even if the people around them are doing something 
wrong. 

The problem, I think, is that some people get stuck in the Latency 
phase. And for these people a form of religion that has clear cut 
rules of right and wrong, black and white appeals to them. So you 
are right, I think, in your theory. We must also add to that, that 
since the ridged Fundamentalist thinking also includes a literal 
interpretation of the bible they see the whole witchcraft thing in 
HP too and that to them is always evil. 

Just remember what JKR said. 'Don???t confuse her ideas with the 
lunatic fringe of her religion.' (or something like that.)

Tonks_op





From tonks_op at yahoo.com  Sun Jan 20 06:33:09 2008
From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks)
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 06:33:09 -0000
Subject: HP & DH Movie
In-Reply-To: <fmj4s4+hdcc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fmupv6+rnnk@eGroups.com>

> The writers' strike, however, is going on and on, with no end in
> sight, regardless of how many people, including the writers
> themselves, are suffering as a result.
> 
> Enough is enough. It's time, IMO, to negotiate.
> 
> Carol, who can live with reruns on television and delayed movie
> production but wonders how the people more directly affected by the
> strike feel about it

Tonks:

Well Carol, usually you and I are on the same side, but here I have 
to take the side of the Unions. I use to be a Union Stewart in a 
professional union that was a non-striking union. I can never take 
the side of management, even when I was in management. I have seen 
too much. Politics is dirty where ever it is. And no one ever wins a 
war. I learned this the hard way. Even when you win, it is a shallow 
victory given the cost. (Pausing now to shed a tear in memory.)

I am sure that the people who are out of work and not on strike are 
getting unemployment which will help with their living expenses. And 
the strikers should be able to get some financial help from the 
union if they really need it.

And if you and others like you want to see an end to the strike so 
that you can watch your favorite TV shows, etc. write to the 
networks and studios. They will listen to the people. It is up to 
management to settle this. And we, the people, need to support the 
American worker by putting pressure not on the union, but on 
management.

Tonks_op





From tonks_op at yahoo.com  Sun Jan 20 07:56:54 2008
From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks)
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 07:56:54 -0000
Subject: HP & DH Movie
In-Reply-To: <403200.44650.qm@web90407.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <fmuus6+rurt@eGroups.com>

> Kemper:
> The writers apparently have different concerns, teaching their 
kids (if they got any) how to live within a budget and how to stand 
up for themselves.


Tonks:

When my union went on a (non-striking) picket I loved the country 
song called "Gotta Kick a Little A.." It is about standing up for 
yourself and what you believe. I have always thought of that song as 
the Union song!


> Carol, wondering whether Hollywood writers, like teachers, can 
> join a professional organization that doesn't strike in preference 
> to a union(in the case of teachers, the AFT is a union and the 
> NEA, of >which I was a member, is not)


Tonks:
Why would they want to? There can be Unions that don???t strike. The 
Union I was in was the AFL-CIO. We were prevented from striking 
because of the nature of our work. I think it is the same with 
medical personal. But that doesn???t stop an Information picket line. 
They hand out information and bring bad press to management which 
puts pressure on management in a different way than walking off the 
job. People can not survive without a nurse, but the publics welfare 
is not in danger if they can not watch TV or movies. 


> Carol:
>
> As for the idea expressed by Kemper that failing to honor the 
> strike is "treachery," I think that word is more than a bit strong,
> especially if they have no other means of earning a living. (Ever  
> try to live on unemployment benefits? Are strikers even entitled 
to them?)
>
> Sandy:
>
> I don't consider the word strong at all. The union and striking is 
> all about solidarity. Everyone working towards the common goal.


Tonks:

I agree with Sandy. If we don???t stand together we die alone, one by 
one. And I have lived on unemployment. I use to look forward to 
being unemployed now and then to take a rest with pay. 

What is really hard is when management refuses to sign the papers to 
allow you to get the unemployment and you have to file against them 
and it ties up your money for months. That is just plain dirty. I 
have seen the worst side of human nature, done by management. The 
things I have seen would make a death eater blush. I knew one man 
who was the assistant director, and when he finally met his own end, 
told people that he wanted to make up for all the evil that he had 
done. Can Hitler be forgiven? It was almost that bad.

Lets just get to the bottom line here. Companies and management are 
Republican and have Republican values. This means that the rich get 
richer on the backs of the poor. Labor Unions protect the workers. I 
have never seen a strike that was not necessary to protect the 
workers. People have given their lives for the right of Unions to 
protect workers who would otherwise be used, abused, and thrown 
aside. Remember this country is based on the economics of capitalism 
and pure capitalism is very evil. It is based on the elite having 
power and wealth and the poor being kept dependent on the mercy of 
the ???boss???. Thank God for the men and women who fought for the 
rights of workers to organize and join Unions!!

Tonks_op
Who will never cross a picket line. I drove a friend over to a store 
one day, and when I saw a picket line there I said, NO, we can not 
go in there, and forced her to get back in the car and go elsewhere.















From s_ings at yahoo.com  Sun Jan 20 15:55:02 2008
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 10:55:02 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: TV to watch during the strike
In-Reply-To: <000301c85897$9f18fca0$67a4a8c0@FRODO>
Message-ID: <581383.64969.qm@web63409.mail.re1.yahoo.com>


--- "Lee Storm(God Is The Healing Force)"
<n2fgc at arrl.net> wrote:

>> 
> I gave up on Sitcoms when old-fashioned values went
> on the decrease and
> sexual innuendo and other things went on the
> increase.  I don't enjoy
> programs with dysfunctional characters.
> 
> I know..I'm probably boring, right?  That's okay.
> :-)
> 
Sheryll:

Not boring at all. I'm not a fan of sitcoms either. I
just don't find them funny. Might be because I come
from a pretty dysfunctional family of my own. <vbg>

I watch the Documentary Channel a lot, when I'm not
watching the movies I preview for work. Previewing
movies is a pretty time consuming thing, since I bring
home about 10 a week, depending what's coming out.

Sheryll

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From s_ings at yahoo.com  Sun Jan 20 16:24:33 2008
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 11:24:33 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Happy Birthday, Shaun!
Message-ID: <870778.15909.qm@web63401.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

*drags in the decorations boxes and starts fresh,
hanging new streamers and blowing up lots of balloons*

Okay, it's a weekend, I'm sure you can all keep
partying for another day. Can't you? 

Today's birthday honouree is Shaun. Birthday owls can
be sent care of this list or directly to:
drednort at alphalink.com.au

*wanders out and comes back with trolleys of nibblies,
assorted drinks and a very tall cake*

Shaun, I hope your day is filled with magic and the
coming year brings you many students eager to learn!

Happy Birthday, Shaun!

Sheryll the Birthday Elf, who thinks any student would
be very lucky to have Shaun as a teacher

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From HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com  Sun Jan 20 16:43:21 2008
From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com (HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 20 Jan 2008 16:43:21 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 1/20/2008, 11:00 am 
Message-ID: <1200847401.13.55518.m57@yahoogroups.com>

Reminder from: HPFGU-OTChatter Yahoo! Group
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/cal

Weekly Chat
Sunday January 20, 2008
11:00 am - 12:00 pm
(This event repeats every week.)
Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Notes:
Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour.

To get to the HPfGU room follow this link:
http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want
to be called.

Enter the password: hpfguchat

Click "Join Chat" on the lower right.

Chat start times:
11 am Pacific US
12 noon Mountain US
1 pm Central US
2 pm Eastern US
7 pm UK



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From kempermentor at yahoo.com  Sun Jan 20 18:15:01 2008
From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kempermentor)
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 18:15:01 -0000
Subject: TV to watch during the strike
In-Reply-To: <581383.64969.qm@web63409.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <fn0335+o91k@eGroups.com>

> Sheryll:
> I watch the Documentary Channel a lot, when I'm not
> watching the movies I preview for work. Previewing
> movies is a pretty time consuming thing, since I bring
> home about 10 a week, depending what's coming out.


Kemper now:
I'm curious: why do you have to preview them?

Kemper




From HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com  Sun Jan 20 18:40:44 2008
From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com (HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 20 Jan 2008 18:40:44 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 1/20/2008, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1200854444.22.32521.m46@yahoogroups.com>

Reminder from: HPFGU-OTChatter Yahoo! Group
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/cal

Weekly Chat
Sunday January 20, 2008
1:00 pm - 1:00 pm
(This event repeats every week.)
Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Notes:
Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour.

To get to the HPfGU room follow this link:
http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want
to be called.

Enter the password: hpfguchat

Click "Join Chat" on the lower right.

Chat start times:
11 am Pacific US
12 noon Mountain US
1 pm Central US
2 pm Eastern US
7 pm UK




All Rights Reserved
 Copyright  2008 
 Yahoo! Inc.
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From n2fgc at arrl.net  Sun Jan 20 18:50:47 2008
From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Lee Storm(God Is The Healing Force))
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 13:50:47 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Happy Birthday, Shaun!
In-Reply-To: <870778.15909.qm@web63401.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000a01c85b95$5eb16d40$67a4a8c0@FRODO>

[Our Birthday Elf wrote]:
| Happy Birthday, Shaun!
| 
| Sheryll the Birthday Elf, who thinks any student would
| be very lucky to have Shaun as a teacher

[Lee]:
Here! Here! <Raises high her Butterbeer!>

Here's to a heart always warmed by the fire of learning. :-)

Cheers,
Lee :-)

Do not walk behind me,    | Lee Storm
I may not care to lead;   | N2FGC
Do not walk before me,    | n2fgc at arrl.net (or)
I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at optonline.net
Walk beside me, and be my friend.





From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Jan 20 19:27:29 2008
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 19:27:29 -0000
Subject: movie / actor / Sirius
Message-ID: <fn07b1+45uf@eGroups.com>

Alex Hogan wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/35120>:

<< I hear today that when they get to DH it will be divided into two
movies! About time! They should have done it with GOF. >>

When we saw OoP movie, my Tim said: "What a good trailer! I can't wait
for the movie."

Sharon Hayes wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/35127>:

<< Rupert Grint bought an ice-cream van with his millions >>

?ice cream van? As an investment? For his personal use? ???

Pippin wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/35180>:

<< Personally, I still don't get why DD couldn't have let Black go
back to the tropics.... >>

I always thought that Sirius refused to go back to the tropics,
because he viewed it as cowardly running away and as deserting Harry,
and would respond to anyone who suggested it by getting angry that
they were accusing him of being useless.

People used to suggest, and I don't recall anything in DH disproving
it, that OoP was the story of DD manipulating Harry and Voldemort and
Sirius so that Sirius would be killed by the bad guys in Harry's
presence, thus providing Harry with the love grief pain that pushed
Voldemort out of Harry's mind, all as part of the plan of preparing
Harry to defeat Voldemort. If DD's plan was that Sirius be killed by
LV's own hand/wand or at least in LV's presence, that bit didn't work.
Your theory that Remus killed Sirius fits in here, if Remus killed
Sirius on DD's orders, and the further elaboration has been suggested
that Sirius knew about it and agreed to it and jumped on the dias by
the Veil on purpose. 

If DD had no such plan, I suppose he might have insisted that Sirius
stay at 12 Grimmauld Place in order to control Kreachy. If so, that
bit didn't work out either.







From s_ings at yahoo.com  Sun Jan 20 19:45:29 2008
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 14:45:29 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: TV to watch during the strike
In-Reply-To: <fn0335+o91k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <949564.9078.qm@web63409.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

> > Sheryll:
> > I watch the Documentary Channel a lot, when I'm
> not
> > watching the movies I preview for work. Previewing
> > movies is a pretty time consuming thing, since I
> bring
> > home about 10 a week, depending what's coming out.
> 
> 
> Kemper now:
> I'm curious: why do you have to preview them?
> 
Sheryll:

Previewing them isn't an obligation, just something I
do for the customers. I've been there for over 3 years
now and there are lots of customers who rely on my
recs for good movies.

We get the movies a week before they're released to
the public. During that week the staff can take them
home and preview them. That's my opportunity to get
myself familiar with the upcoming releases so I can
give customers informed recommendations.

It's not as easy as it sounds. I only get 10 free
rentals per week and sometimes there are more than 10
movies being released. I try to focus on independent
and foreign films, documentaries. The stuff most of
the staff doesn't watch. If there's a big Hollywood
movie that I *want* to see, that goes in my pile as
well. I mostly avoid the comedies, as I'm not a big
fan of 'stupid' humour. I generally avoid remakes as I
tend to prefer the originals. Hubby and I are fans of
B horror films, so I bring those home. 

This is supposed to be a part-time job for me. On a
rare week, I actually do work part-time hours. But
generally it's more like 35+ hours for the week. We
don't get paid to watch the movies, but that can take
anywhere from 15-20 hours a week, depending on how
long they are. How the heck I ever find time to watch
TV is beyond me!

Sheryll, heading to work now :D

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From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Sun Jan 20 20:17:45 2008
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 20:17:45 -0000
Subject: Back to profiteroles
In-Reply-To: <fmtrdo+tq16@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fn0a99+m8rp@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at ...> wrote:
>
>  "Geoff Bannister" <gbannister10@> wrote:
> >
> > Yesterday, my wife marked her 60th birthday. We 
> > came up to Crawley - 25 miles south of London - 
> > to join in a family celebration including a meal 
> > today at lunchtime in the Crawley Pizza Hut.
> > 
> > For pudding, I was able to order.... yes.... 
> > profiteroles; eight delicious cream filled 
> > spheres covered in chocolate sauce and lashings 
> > of whipped cream.
> 
> Potioncat:
> Pizza Hut? I'm having a very hard time imagining Pizza Hut as I know it 
> serving something so British as profiteroles.
> 
> Although, I have very fond memories of Pizza Hut the restaurant. Now in 
> my area at least, it's often only for carry out or delivery.

Geoff:
The UK Pizza Hut is probably the biggest pizza operation in 
the country; they do have a takeaway delivery but the restaurant 
side is very popular.

The pudding menu often contains British favourites like banana 
split, knockerbocker glory or peach melba, often on the ice cream
side but, as I reported, profiteroles have sneaked in there.
:-)




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Sun Jan 20 21:10:35 2008
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 21:10:35 -0000
Subject: Catholic newspaper publishes debate about HP - what do people think?
In-Reply-To: <fmuke1+7vp7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fn0dcb+sc75@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" <tonks_op at ...> wrote:
>
> > Geoff:
> > Sorry, but I'm going to disagree with you.
> > 
> > As a Christian, I have argued on many occasions that Harry is a 
> Everyman. He is like a Christian on his or her journey through life. 
> > I believe as an evangelical that no mortal person can be Christ or 
> a Christ figure. Jesus is God in human form. He alone is immortal 
> and can forgive sin. We, as believers, can be Christ-like as we try 
> to live according to what Jesus taught. We will be transformed only 
> when we leave his life.
> 
> 
> Tonks:
> That is part of what I am saying. Harry is Everyman on his journey, 
> yes. And the journey for each Christian is to "become Christ". That 
> is not the same as the Gnostic ideas. Christian Monasticism has 
> always had as the goal for the individual to become so united to God 
> as to become like Christ. Some call that ???becoming Christ???. 
> 
> If you read very careful in the last part of DH, you will see that 
> happening to Harry. Harry makes the choice to die. (The Christian 
> monk is told to die to self, the ego.)If you read on in DH you see 
> Hagrid carrying Harry as if the scene were a Pieta. And later Hagrid 
> (the Keeper of the Keys) is the one who says "where is Harry?" (Like 
> the people at the tomb) and later everyone screams "He's alive!" 
> This is a death and resurrection scene. And throughout the books we 
> see the step by step way in which Harry is transformed 
> (transfigured) into Christ. Harry is not THE Christ. (Jesus is THE 
> Christ, and only Jesus.) Harry is what every Christian is to become. 
> The classic progression in the spiritual life is to go through 
> different stages until ones comes to what is called the mystical 
> marriage. (No, this is not Gnosticism.) At this point the person is 
> one with God and their behavior looks a lot like that of Jesus. The 
> Saints of the church were the ones who arrived at this point in this 
> life. The progress in the spiritual life is not completed in this 
> life, even for them. This is what is meant by becoming Christ. Call 
> it being like Christ if you wish, means the same to most of us. 

Geoff:
I still feel that I have to disagree with you. I think that it stems from 
two sources, the first perhaps being the form of words in which we 
couch our own personal perspective of faith and the other being that 
I get the impression that you are possibly approaching the Christian 
faith from a Catholic point of view whereas I am coming from an 
evangelical, Non-conformist standpoint.

Some time ago, on one of the groups, either here or on Main, I used 
the picture of faith being like a car. Let's say that a car, basically, has 
to have an engine, four wheels and a steering wheels. Now, that will 
satisfy some people. Others feel that they need some extras ? power 
steering, air-conditioning, automatic gearbox and so on. However, 
even with these additions, the basic car is still as defined above.

As an evangelical Christian, and basing it on my own personal 
experience of becoming a Christian while in my last term at teacher 
training college at the age of twenty one, I believe that the heart of 
being a believer rests on accepting that Jesus was God in human form, 
that he died for our sins and rose again. If we place our belief in him, 
then we receive salvation and the Holy Spirit lives in us to guide us 
through our lives.  This is where I believe the form of words comes 
into play. I do not believe that we can "become" Christ. He is immortal; 
he is God and he can save anyone who asks for redemption. We can 
never be perfect here on earth. What we can do is strive to reach the 
ideals of Christian living and, by being in contact with the Spirit of 
God, live in love with one another and with creation. This is to 
"become like" Christ.

On the second source of disagreement, because I come from the 
background I have mentioned, I cannot accept the concept of Marian 
worship and the idea of the Pieta. In terms of DH, I do not believe 
that Harry died and was brought back; Dumbledore twice makes it 
clear that Harry has not died. He is not transformed into Christ. In 
his letter to the Roman church (chapter 2, verse 2), Paul writes "Do 
not conform any longer to the pattern of this world but be transformed 
by the renewing of your mind." Gnosticism was, as you know, a heresy 
which claimed that, to be a believer, you had to have special knowledge 
denied to the ordinary person. Although you say that the arrival at the 
mystical marriage is not Gnosticism, it sounds very much like some of 
the ideas involving the alchemical progression which dominated our 
discussions on spirituality in the Potterverse two or three years back. 
Again, speaking personally, I do not believe that we can take the events 
in the Great Hall at Hogwarts as being analogous to the events in the 
garden or in the upper room at the first Easter.

Tonks, let me stress at this point that what I am saying is not meant in 
any way to be attacking your belief but I believe that the first requirement 
in Christian faith, using my metaphor is to get hold of the basic car first; 
you can always change to a model with power steering etc. later if you 
want to. If you make belief appear too complicated or esoteric, then the 
seeker will be confused or deterred from looking further. If he or she can 
latch on to what Jesus said to Nicodemus - "God so loved the world that 
he gave his one and only son that whoever believes in him shall not perish 
but have eternal life" ? then if they want to enlarge what they see as 
necessary to belief, that is their choice.





From minnesotatiffany at hotmail.com  Sun Jan 20 22:14:57 2008
From: minnesotatiffany at hotmail.com (Tiffany B. Clark)
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 22:14:57 -0000
Subject: Happy Birthday, Shaun!
In-Reply-To: <870778.15909.qm@web63401.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <fn0h51+1047f@eGroups.com>

> Sheryll Townsend:
>
> *drags in the decorations boxes and starts fresh,
hanging new streamers and blowing up lots of balloons*

Okay, it's a weekend, I'm sure you can all keep
partying for another day. Can't you? 

Today's birthday honouree is Shaun. Birthday owls can
be sent care of this list or directly to:
drednort at ...
 
*wanders out and comes back with trolleys of nibblies,
assorted drinks and a very tall cake*

Shaun, I hope your day is filled with magic and the
coming year brings you many students eager to learn!

Happy Birthday, Shaun!
 
Sheryll the Birthday Elf, who thinks any student would
be very lucky to have Shaun as a teacher

Tiffany:

I can party as long as I want this evening, it's around 0 outside & 
classes begin tomorrow at the university I go to.  I hope you have a 
good one Shaun & make it one to remember on your special day.




From random832 at fastmail.us  Mon Jan 21 04:08:12 2008
From: random832 at fastmail.us (Random832)
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 23:08:12 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: HP & DH Movie
In-Reply-To: <fmt93e+sdrk@eGroups.com>
References: <fmt93e+sdrk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <47941AAC.9090605@fastmail.us>

Carol wrote:
> Sandy:
> <snip>
>   
>> It is the only tool they have.
>>     
>
> Carol responds:
>
> Then maybe Hollywood needs to be restructured, and real jobs that
> don't require strikes to get fair compensation ought to be made
> available to writers.
That sounds good in theory - but, the only groups that will benefit from 
that are A) Lawyers and B) Producers - in that order. When there's only 
one contract for all the writers, one for all the directors, one for all 
the actors, etc - the same terms apply to everyone, and there's more 
eyes on it and it can be fair etc. When each person is signing their own 
contract it's easier for the producers - which are the big business, to 
slip things by, and of course more contracts means more lawyers to write 
the contracts.



From tonks_op at yahoo.com  Mon Jan 21 05:56:31 2008
From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks)
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 05:56:31 -0000
Subject: Catholic newspaper publishes debate about HP - what do people think?
In-Reply-To: <fn0dcb+sc75@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fn1c6f+f1ni@eGroups.com>

> Geoff:
> I still feel that I have to disagree with you. I think that it 
stems from two sources, the first perhaps being the form of words in 
which we  couch our own personal perspective of faith and the other 
being the I get the impression that you are possibly approaching the 
Christian faith from a Catholic point of view whereas I am coming 
from an evangelical, Non-conformist standpoint.
> 

Tonks:

Yes, my own belief is more of a Catholic view, (Anglo-Catholic to be 
precise). But I am not trying to argue different points of view of 
personal Christian belief. What I am trying to say it that I think 
that Rowling was using some classic ideas from Catholic theology in 
the books, especially in the last book. I wish she would 'confess' 
that like she seems to want to confess everything else. 

One could make a clear case for the fact that basic Catholic (which 
includes more that just the RC church) theology of the spiritual 
life is a basis for what she has written. I am talking about the 
teaching of some of the greatest Saints such as St. John of the 
Cross, St. Teresa of Avila, St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Bonaventure, St. 
Ignatius, to name only a few. Also the writing of famious monks such 
as Thomas Merton. Rowling can not have escaped hearing or reading 
some of them. And she has admitted to studying Alchemy. And 
Christian Alchemy is all about the transformation of the human being 
into the image of Christ. Some even say that St. Thomas Aquinas was 
an Alchemist.

Peace,
Tonks_op




From predigirl1 at yahoo.com  Mon Jan 21 05:56:44 2008
From: predigirl1 at yahoo.com (Alex Hogan)
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 21:56:44 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: TV to watch during the strike
In-Reply-To: <fmulnj+3oe8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <547858.90706.qm@web53011.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

I go for Buffy and Angel, but they are at ungodly early hours of the morning. I also like Monk, Psych, and for a really new show...The Sarah Connor Chronicles ! So far it's rocking! Jericho will be back next month. But untill the strike is over, Joss Whedon will not get to complete "The Dollhouse" which brings Eliza Dushku/Whedon collaboration back to TV !!!! Dammit!!! This strike needs to end!
   
  Alex Hogan
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   <tonks_op at yahoo.com> wrote:
          There is a strike? ;-)

Seriously. I watch TV while on the computer so I am only half 
watching most of the time. I watched Letterman for a couple of weeks 
before I started to say to myself, "is this a rerun?" Then I turned 
over to Leno and gosh he looked younger. lol. It took me a while to 
figure all of this out. Guess that shows how much I pay attention to 
what I do watch. 

As to reality TV. I am not too keen on that either. I do like the 
Biggest Loser, because I am overweight and that show is an 
inspiration. Out of desperation one night, once I realized that 
there was a strike and all the shows I was watching were reruns, I 
went over to NBC and watched the Apprentice, I think that is what it 
was. It didn't keep my attention. Most of those reality shows are 
boring. I want escape. I am SICK of all of these medical shows too. 
The last thing I want to watch and have seep into my subconscious 
mind is all of the sickness on TV. Uck. Why are they so popular?

Tonks_op 



                         

       
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Never miss a thing.   Make Yahoo your homepage.

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From predigirl1 at yahoo.com  Mon Jan 21 06:20:44 2008
From: predigirl1 at yahoo.com (Alex Hogan)
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 22:20:44 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Trailer for HBP
In-Reply-To: <bc2.1e3ace3b.34c17ca4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <816941.69817.qm@web53006.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

I am SO glad that it's the same director as OOP!!! That was the only watchable movie since COS! And I heard that they are breaking DH into two movies. About bloody time! They should have done that with GOC!!!  Happy Camper now!
   
  Alex Hogan

Debby970095 at aol.com wrote:
          Ignore the non-English at the beginning. Sorry I do not know what language 
it is but it does go to English and has some neat things in it. I am getting 
excited already and the movie does not come out until November!!!


Debby

_Cine.gr - Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince_ 
(http://www.cine.gr/film.asp?id=710326&page=8) 

**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. 
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                         

       
---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.

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From predigirl1 at yahoo.com  Mon Jan 21 07:02:17 2008
From: predigirl1 at yahoo.com (Alex Hogan)
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 23:02:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Brad Renfro Dead at Age 25
In-Reply-To: <fmkgbe+g4k6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <219525.25536.qm@web53008.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

I HATE when that happens. Do any of you watch "Celebrity Rehab"? Jeff Conaway from "Taxi" and "Grease" is reduced to a withered-up creature that can't even go potty by himself. It is where Ms. Spears is headed. Anna Nichole all over again. Sad.
   
  Alex

Steve <bboyminn at yahoo.com> wrote:
          While it is not related to Harry Potter, it is none the less a
great loss. Brad Renfro, former child actor in such very great
movies as the 'The Client' and 'The Cure' has died in his home
at age 25. He has had plenty of run-ins with drugs and the law 
in his post teen years. Though if you saw the movie 'Bullies', 
then you saw his tremendous potential as an adult actor. He
has had many other minor supporting role, and in every case
has shown his finely honed skill as an actor. But sadly his
drinking and drug abuse held him back. I've always been a big
fan of his, and hoped he would find his way as an adult actor. 
But sadly his young life has ended.

http://www.mtv.com/movies/news/articles/1579719/20080115/story.jhtml

Another fine actor who couldn't make the transition from child
to adult actor was the very talented and handsome Jonathan
Brandis (TV-Seaquest) who had over 46 acting credits in his
short life. Jonathan, unable to face the rejection of Hollywood,
though he was still young and handsome, took his own life. 
Another talented young person tragically lost.

It is my deepest, most heartfelt, and fondest hope that none
of the Potter crew follow this path.

Steve/bboyminn



                         

       
---------------------------------
Never miss a thing.   Make Yahoo your homepage.

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From Schlobin at aol.com  Mon Jan 21 07:33:25 2008
From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176)
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 07:33:25 -0000
Subject: watched Wrinkle in Time Again
Message-ID: <fn1hs5+a9ba@eGroups.com>

Has anyone else watched this? I loved the Albus Dumbledore quote (as I 
think I've said before)...this time, I marveled at how well the film 
makers reflected the values and spirit of the book...

I think that it's a stitch that Mrs. Whatsis quotes Pascal, Seneca, 
Shakespeare, Horace (she finds it difficult to verbalize so she uses 
quotations,) Euripides, Cervantes, Goethe...but in the film she quotes 
DD, not JKR...

Fun...

Susan




From macloudt at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Jan 21 11:28:38 2008
From: macloudt at yahoo.co.uk (Mary Ann Jennings)
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 11:28:38 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Happy Birthday, Shaun!
Message-ID: <896426.97286.qm@web25801.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

>>>Happy Birthday, Shaun!

Sheryll the Birthday Elf, who thinks any student would
be very lucky to have Shaun as a teacher<<<

Hear, hear!

Have a good one, Shaun.  ***refills the butterbeer***

Mary Ann :)




From renee.antoine at terminus2008.org  Mon Jan 21 12:11:16 2008
From: renee.antoine at terminus2008.org (merihastyent)
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 12:11:16 -0000
Subject: Terminus - Your Next Stop!
Message-ID: <fn2254+lb7i@eGroups.com>

Dear HPforGrownups members,

I'd like to invite you to submit programming for Terminus, a Harry Potter
conference to be held August 7-11, 2008, at the Hilton Chicago Hotel. The
deadline for all proposals is February 1. I have included the call for
papers
below, and the programming team is happy to answer any questions at
programming @ terminus2008.org (no spaces). Please turn those incredible
analyses and theories in to papers, panels, roundtable discussions,
and workshops--and
we'd also love to receive fanfiction readings, art and crafts for the
gallery and
as fanart portfolios, and applications to staff creative booths for
writing, editing,
art, and art critique. I hope you'll join us in Chicago for an
incredible five days
this August!

Regards,
Renee Antoine
Media Coordinator - Terminus
<http://www.terminus2008.org>


CALL FOR PAPERS: Terminus
Chicago, IL
August 7-11, 2008
A Harry Potter Conference presented by Narrate Conferences, Inc.

Terminus, an interdisciplinary Harry Potter-themed conference to take
place August 7-11, 2008, in Chicago, Illinois, seeks papers, panels,
interactive workshops, roundtable discussions, and other presentation
formats suitable for an audience of academics, students,
professionals, and fans.

The overarching conference themes focus on the completed series.
Analyses that address the development of topics through the entirety
of the seven Harry Potter books are especially encouraged, including
those topics that focus on the related cultural phenomenon. The
programming will not be limited to those themes, however, and
proposals that address specific aspects of the Harry Potter series,
related works, and surrounding community across all disciplines are
encouraged as well. A non-exhaustive list of sample topics includes
literary analyses of the novels; studies of the cultural phenomenon;
use of the novels in schools and libraries for education; examination
of related business and legal issues; scientific explanations of magic
in the series; media and fan studies; craft-based workshops in
writing, art, and publishing; and overviews of how the series and
films fit into larger contexts.

Submission to the vetting board is by online system only. No other
format or contact will be accepted. The submission system is located
at <http://www.terminus2008.org/submissions/>.

The deadline for proposals is February 1, 2008, and notices regarding
proposals will be sent no later than March 1, 2008. At the time of
proposal submission, we require an abstract of 300-500 words, a 50-100
word presentation summary, and a presenter biography of no more than
100 words. Those wishing to submit a proposal for a roundtable
discussion may submit a brief explanation of a topic and a list of
10-15 sample discussion questions in lieu of a formal abstract.

Conference papers will be collected for publication at a later date.
Presenters must be registered for the conference no later than April
15, 2008. For more information about programming, our review process,
and proposal submissions, please see the Terminus website at
<http://www.terminus2008.org/programming/>. Questions specifically
about programming may be directed to <programming at terminus2008.org>.

Terminus is a presentation of Narrate Conferences, Inc., a 501(c)(3)
charitable organization with the mission of organizing academic,
literary, and exploratory conferences that appeal to adult scholars,
students, professionals, and fans. For inquiries about Narrate
Conferences, Inc., please write to <info at narrateconferences.org>. This
conference is not endorsed, sanctioned or any other way supported,
directly or indirectly, by Warner Bros. Entertainment, the Harry
Potter book publishers, or J. K. Rowling and her representatives.




From tonks_op at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 22 06:28:14 2008
From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 06:28:14 -0000
Subject: Golden Compass
Message-ID: <fn42du+sjtd@eGroups.com>

Speaking of movies. Does anyone know what this movie means? I heard 
that it was controversial, so naturally I had to see it. I sensed some 
sort of religious theme, and maybe a slam against the RC church 
structure, but other than that I just came away confused. What did it 
all mean?? Why is it controversial? Someone told me that there were 
post about it on the net from the same sorts of people who are opposed 
to HP. Maybe I should start looking around the net. Has anyone here 
seen the movie?

Tonks_op




From mcrudele78 at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 22 06:59:56 2008
From: mcrudele78 at yahoo.com (Mike)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 06:59:56 -0000
Subject: Recommended Posts and Fan Fics (wasRe: Weekly Chat, 1/13/2008, 1:00 pm
In-Reply-To: <fmgip5+kgfg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fn449c+dg62@eGroups.com>

> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database
> 
> 
> Potioncat:
> Oh, my. What a walk down memory lane that is! <Sigh>
> 
> I'd forgotten about the recommended posts site, had cofused it 
> with "Fantatic Posts and Where to Find Them" site--which is 
> another place I haven't been to in a long time.
> 
> 
> I don't think I ever knew there was a database for fanfics. Looks 
> like there's one here and at the main list. Are those lists still 
> active? I don't see a date on them---nor very many fics.
> Is there an interest in continuing / resuming it?

Mike:
Actually, PC, Carol, and anybody else that's interested, the 
Recommended Posts (Post-OoP), Fanfiction, and Recommended Reading 
(Enter your favorite non-HP book here) databases have all been re-
opened to all members to add on at your pleasure. They were closed 
back in 2003 because of a particular disruptive member that seemed 
bent on corrupting them. (Those of you around then may remember this 
particular T-BAY-er)

So have at them.

As to your question, PC, about interest in resuming them; I'm going 
to turn it around a bit and ask for an opinion, please: do you think 
the elves should put out an ADMIN announcing these db's re-opening?

Mike, who re-opened the little orphan dbs but didn't know what to do 
next for the poor things




From Schlobin at aol.com  Tue Jan 22 09:07:31 2008
From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 09:07:31 -0000
Subject: Golden Compass
In-Reply-To: <fn42du+sjtd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fn4boj+kl18@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" <tonks_op at ...> wrote:
>
> Speaking of movies. Does anyone know what this movie means? I heard 
> that it was controversial, so naturally I had to see it. I sensed 
some 
> sort of religious theme, and maybe a slam against the RC church 
> structure, but other than that I just came away confused. What did it 
> all mean?? Why is it controversial? Someone told me that there were 
> post about it on the net from the same sorts of people who are 
opposed 
> to HP. Maybe I should start looking around the net. Has anyone here 
> seen the movie?
> 
> Tonks_op
>

I have not seen the movie - but would like to hear from those who 
have..is it any good? Is it scary? My kids would like to see it, and I 
don't want to have to go and look at it first...

The series is considered agressively anti-Christian. 

Susan




From gav_fiji at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 22 09:59:02 2008
From: gav_fiji at yahoo.com (Goddlefrood)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 09:59:02 -0000
Subject: Golden Compass
In-Reply-To: <fn4boj+kl18@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fn4ep6+36uv@eGroups.com>

> Susan:

> I have not seen the movie - but would like to hear from those 
> who have..is it any good? Is it scary? My kids would like to 
> see it, and I don't want to have to go and look at it first...

Goddlefrood:

It follows the book quite closely, so if you enjoyed the book 
you'll probably enjoy the film.

Philip Pullman is a professed atheist and His Dark Materials is 
his retelling of Paradise Lost. That's unlikely to assist. The 
armoured bear in the movie is unlike that in the book and the 
film also skims over some of the darker aspects. Oh, and Nichole 
Kidman is just wrong as Mrs. Coulter. It's worth a look though 
and by the way it ended it appears the entire series is planned 
to be filmed. 

One other thing, which probably won't bother too many people, 
is that the accent of the children was not from the Oxford of 
this dimension, they must speak like cockneys in Pullman's 
dimension, or maybe it was the filmmakers being influenced 
by the filmed version of Oliver Twist with Oliver Reed.

Don't let me put you off though, it's pretty fair entertainment.

Goddlefrood




From orphan_ann at hotmail.co.uk  Tue Jan 22 10:59:08 2008
From: orphan_ann at hotmail.co.uk (or.phan_ann)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 10:59:08 -0000
Subject: Golden Compass
In-Reply-To: <fn42du+sjtd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fn4i9s+hkas@eGroups.com>

> Tonks wrote:
>
> Speaking of movies. Does anyone know what this movie means? I heard 
> that it was controversial, so naturally I had to see it. I sensed     
> some sort of religious theme, and maybe a slam against the RC church 
> structure, but other than that I just came away confused.

Ann:
To add to what Goddlefrood said, the trilogy is anti-authoritatian, and 
in particular anti-religious. The Magisterium is the Church, which in 
Lyra's world is a combination of the Protestant and Catholic churches 
(I think in her history Martin Luther became Pope.) In the film, I 
think this is mentioned once: in the town where they meet the bear 
Iorek, a "Magisterium branch office" turned out to be a church.

So the controversy is mostly that it's seen as anti-Christian, though 
there's the usual kind of book-of-the-film stuff as well. Personally, I 
didn't think much of it, apart from the CGI London.

Ann




From jnferr at gmail.com  Tue Jan 22 12:36:37 2008
From: jnferr at gmail.com (Janette)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 06:36:37 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Golden Compass
In-Reply-To: <fn42du+sjtd@eGroups.com>
References: <fn42du+sjtd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8ee758b40801220436he78541pd2ff433b2286f31f@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/22/08, Tonks <tonks_op at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Speaking of movies. Does anyone know what this movie means? I heard
> that it was controversial, so naturally I had to see it. I sensed some
> sort of religious theme, and maybe a slam against the RC church
> structure, but other than that I just came away confused. What did it
> all mean?? Why is it controversial? Someone told me that there were
> post about it on the net from the same sorts of people who are opposed
> to HP. Maybe I should start looking around the net. Has anyone here
> seen the movie?


montims:

I would recommend reading the books - they are wonderfully written, and
explain what the movie is all about.  Though the movie had some very
heavy-handed exposition, IMO.  Also, if you want to stick with the movies,
they may film the second and third parts of the trilogy, and all should
become clear.  But thanks to the very effective boycot recommendations from
some authorities in the US, the first film may not have received enough box
office takings to have demonstrated the viability of making the sequels, so
it may be dead in the water, evidently...


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 22 15:17:08 2008
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 15:17:08 -0000
Subject: Golden Compass
In-Reply-To: <8ee758b40801220436he78541pd2ff433b2286f31f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <fn51dk+f1b8@eGroups.com>

> On 1/22/08, Tonks <tonks_op at ...> wrote:
> 
> > Speaking of movies. Does anyone know what this movie means? I 
heard
> > that it was controversial, so naturally I had to see it. I 
sensed some
> > sort of religious theme, and maybe a slam against the RC church
> > structure, but other than that I just came away confused. What 
did it
> > all mean?? Why is it controversial? Someone told me that there 
were
> > post about it on the net from the same sorts of people who are 
opposed
> > to HP. Maybe I should start looking around the net. Has anyone 
here
> > seen the movie?
> 
> 
> montims:
> 
> I would recommend reading the books - they are wonderfully 
written, and
> explain what the movie is all about.  Though the movie had some 
very
> heavy-handed exposition, IMO.  Also, if you want to stick with the 
movies,
> they may film the second and third parts of the trilogy, and all 
should
> become clear.  But thanks to the very effective boycot 
recommendations from
> some authorities in the US, the first film may not have received 
enough box
> office takings to have demonstrated the viability of making the 
sequels, so
> it may be dead in the water, evidently...


Alla:

I loved the books, all except the ending. I also loved the movie and 
especially in the first one all this talk about controversy just 
makes me giggle.

But it makes me very sad that something that I consider a very fair 
entertainment as Goddlefrood said may not be continued because of 
that stupidity. I hope it will be.

NO there is nothing specifically antireligious in the movie so far 
IMO. Magisterium is evil, sure, but it is NOT antireligious, it is 
anti that institution, which in the movie is even toned down as 
division of the church.

Books get heavier antireligious sure, but if your faith cannot 
handle the books, oh dear.


In short, I highly recommend the movie, for kids as well.

JMO,

Alla




From n2fgc at arrl.net  Tue Jan 22 15:19:41 2008
From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Lee Storm(God Is The Healing Force))
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 10:19:41 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Golden Compass
In-Reply-To: <fn42du+sjtd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000301c85d0a$362e28b0$67a4a8c0@FRODO>

Tonks,

In a nutshell, The Golden Compass (which is the US name) is the first of a
trilogy written by Philip Pullman who is a devout atheist.  The story is
almost compelling, but it is, in total, a slam against the RC and any other
Christian belief system...sometimes subtle and sometimes very blatant.  The
second story in the trilogy is The Subtle Knife.

Pullman is hoping that the movie will compel young readers to want to get
the book and the rest of the trilogy and that the work might swing them away
from Christianity.  There is a blurb and explanation which can be found on
snopes.com:
<http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/compass.asp>
.

I have read the trilogy and, as a Christian, found it most disquieting and
somewhat offensive.  Taken just as a story, there are compelling things in
it, as I stated above, and one is sucked into reading the whole thing to see
how it turns out.  Once finished, however, IMO, I was disgusted at myself
for wasting so much time on it!

Cheers,

Lee
(Going back to reading Narnia)

Do not walk behind me,    | Lee Storm
I may not care to lead;   | N2FGC
Do not walk before me,    | n2fgc at arrl.net (or)
I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at optonline.net
Walk beside me, and be my friend.





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 22 16:35:20 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 16:35:20 -0000
Subject: Recommended Posts and Fan Fics (wasRe: Weekly Chat, 1/13/2008, 1:00 pm
In-Reply-To: <fn449c+dg62@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fn5608+rome@eGroups.com>

Mike wrote:
> Actually, PC, Carol, and anybody else that's interested, the 
Recommended Posts (Post-OoP), Fanfiction, and Recommended Reading 
(Enter your favorite non-HP book here) databases have all been re-
opened to all members to add on at your pleasure. They were closed
back in 2003 because of a particular disruptive member that seemed
bent on corrupting them. (Those of you around then may remember this
particular T-BAY-er)
> 
> So have at them.
> 
> As to your question, PC, about interest in resuming them; I'm going
 to turn it around a bit and ask for an opinion, please: do you think
the elves should put out an ADMIN announcing these db's re-opening?
> 
> Mike, who re-opened the little orphan dbs but didn't know what to do
next for the poor things
>
Carol responds:

Why not announce it, with the disruptive member gone? Maybe the posts
would stimulate discussion. As you've no doubt noticed, we're stuck in
a House-Elves rut on the main list. :-( Also, of course, newbies
should know about them. It's a whole lot easier to read the
Recommended Posts than try to read the entire archives of HPfGu to
find out what's already been discussed and what sort of brilliant (if
not always accurate) ideas have been tossed around the main list in
the past.

Carol, who thinks that Mike's efforts will simply be wasted if he
doesn't announce them :-)




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 22 16:51:22 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 16:51:22 -0000
Subject: Golden Compass
In-Reply-To: <fn4boj+kl18@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fn56ua+cgcf@eGroups.com>

Susan wrote:
> 
> I have not seen the movie - but would like to hear from those who
have..is it any good? Is it scary? My kids would like to see it, and I
don't want to have to go and look at it first...
> 
> The series is considered agressively anti-Christian. 

Carol responds:

that's what I've heard, too--that the author is an atheist who's
trying to counter Tolkien, C.S. Lewis, and other Christian fantasy
authors withan anti-religious perspective. I have no idea how accurate
that perspective is, however, as my only exposure to the film was a
preview during a TV show about the effects of global warming on polar
bears. (The last shot of a starving female bear is burned into my
mind; I can't say the same for the preview. All I got out of it was
that three companions, a girl, a boy(?) and a bear were wandering
around in the snow and a female villain was trying to prevent the girl
from finding the Golden Compass. I may have even that much wrong.)

It looked harmless enough, but I haven't read the book. I have no idea
how violent it is or what its themes are. If both the protagonist and
villain are female, it might appeal more to girls than boys despite
the genre, or boys in their early teens might not want to see it
because they think they can't identify with a female protagonist. (I
don't know; I'm just guessing based on that little teaser.)

Carol, not tempted to see the film herself but curious about what
others think





From annemehr at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 22 17:02:22 2008
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (Annemehr)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 17:02:22 -0000
Subject: Golden Compass
In-Reply-To: <000301c85d0a$362e28b0$67a4a8c0@FRODO>
Message-ID: <fn57iu+489u@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Lee Storm(God Is The Healing 
Force)" <n2fgc at ...> wrote:
>
> Tonks,
> 
> In a nutshell, The Golden Compass (which is the US name) is the 
first of a
> trilogy written by Philip Pullman who is a devout atheist.  The 
story is
> almost compelling, but it is, in total, a slam against the RC and 
any other
> Christian belief system...sometimes subtle and sometimes very 
blatant.  The
> second story in the trilogy is The Subtle Knife.
> 
> Pullman is hoping that the movie will compel young readers to want 
to get
> the book and the rest of the trilogy and that the work might swing 
them away
> from Christianity.

Annemehr:
Says who?  Pullman?  Or a really accomplished RL legilimens?  Anyway, 
it didn't work out that way with my teenaged daughters.  The older 
one had already read the whole series before she saw the movie, and 
wasn't swayed, and the younger one saw the movie but never picked up 
the book.  They both liked what they saw/read, though.

Lee:
> There is a blurb and explanation which can be found on
> snopes.com:
> <http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/compass.asp>

Annemehr:
I'm not much impressed by that Snopes article.  None of its sources 
include Pullman himself.

A recent interview with Pullman:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21595083/

He *says* he's more against tyranny, yes including religious tyranny 
(and God knows the world has always had plenty of that).

Kind of makes me want to read the books myself, to see.  But I don't 
pay any attention to boycotts of ideas, and certainly don't enforce 
them on my kids.

Annemehr
for whom the joys of her childhood favorites, C.S. Lewis, Stephen 
King, and Dorothy Sayers, have quite palled (but what a combination, 
eh?)






From kempermentor at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 22 18:41:05 2008
From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kempermentor)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 18:41:05 -0000
Subject: Golden Compass
In-Reply-To: <fn42du+sjtd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fn5dc2+n1c8@eGroups.com>


> Tonks:
> Speaking of movies. Does anyone know what this movie means? I heard 
> that it was controversial, so naturally I had to see it. I sensed some 
> sort of religious theme, and maybe a slam against the RC church 
> structure, but other than that I just came away confused. What did it 
> all mean?? Why is it controversial? Someone told me that there were 
> post about it on the net from the same sorts of people who are opposed 
> to HP. Maybe I should start looking around the net. Has anyone here 
> seen the movie?


Kemper now:
I've only read the books.
Others have mentioned that the movie/books are anti-religion, but I
think they're more anti-oppression.  I would say Pullman is
pro-science and pro-spirituality.

I enjoyed the books and could easily see the challenge to religion. 
What I did not like about the books, in the end, was the protagonist.
s
p
o
i
l
e
r

a
l
e
r
t
Lyra was a strong female character, but in the second third books she
seems to cow tow to a boy, Will. (Who seems to represent Free Will,
iirc.) 

I enjoyed the challenge of faith.  Teen are at an age where they
question, so it makes sense.  Faith strengthens when tempered by
questioning, imo.  Blind faith is weak.  Again, jmo.

What I did not like was the apparent sexism and maintained established
gender roles.
Girl follows boy. Boy touches girl (in non sexual, but still sensual
way) and girl's soul will never change or... remain the same til her
death (the little animals each character has in the books
is/represents their soul, when young the soul changes animal form
until sometime in adolescence/early adulthood)
Boy does not seem changed by girl.

Girl has golden compass which she uses through intuition (feminine trait).
Boy has knife (subtle phallic symbol) that he wields (masculine trait)
can cut/split anything.

I feel as I could go on with some other examples, but the kid is
waking up.

Kemper, who enjoys strong female characters in fantasy (Alice,
Dorothy, and that chic in LotR... oh wait, there wasn't one)






From kempermentor at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 22 19:11:44 2008
From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kempermentor)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 19:11:44 -0000
Subject: Golden Compass
In-Reply-To: <fn5dc2+n1c8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fn5f5g+d6bj@eGroups.com>


> Kemper, who enjoys strong female characters in fantasy (Alice,
> Dorothy, and that chic in LotR... oh wait, there wasn't one)
>

Kemper now:
Ok... maybe Eowyn




From n2fgc at arrl.net  Tue Jan 22 20:34:56 2008
From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Lee Storm(God Is The Healing Force))
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 15:34:56 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Golden Compass
In-Reply-To: <fn5dc2+n1c8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000301c85d36$40ac4cf0$67a4a8c0@FRODO>

| Kemper, who enjoys strong female characters in fantasy (Alice,
| Dorothy, and that chic in LotR... oh wait, there wasn't one)

[Lee]:
Well, at least in the books, Galadriel and Iowan (forgive misspelling) were
quite strong.  Galadriel was the queen elf, so to speak, and Iowan was a
warrior.

Cheers,

Lee :-)
(Who really should go back and read the Tolkien books again.)

Do not walk behind me,    | Lee Storm
I may not care to lead;   | N2FGC
Do not walk before me,    | n2fgc at arrl.net (or)
I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at optonline.net
Walk beside me, and be my friend.





From ewetoo at gmail.com  Tue Jan 22 23:02:08 2008
From: ewetoo at gmail.com (ewe2)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 10:02:08 +1100
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Recommended Posts and Fan Fics (wasRe: Weekly Chat, 1/13/2008, 1:00 pm
In-Reply-To: <fn5608+rome@eGroups.com>
References: <fn449c+dg62@eGroups.com> <fn5608+rome@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <91d14f320801221502i4a1b1c47l42628669c5e3c1d4@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/23/08, Carol <justcarol67 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Mike wrote:
> > Actually, PC, Carol, and anybody else that's interested, the
> Recommended Posts (Post-OoP), Fanfiction, and Recommended Reading
> (Enter your favorite non-HP book here) databases have all been re-
> opened to all members to add on at your pleasure. They were closed
> back in 2003 because of a particular disruptive member that seemed
> bent on corrupting them. (Those of you around then may remember this
> particular T-BAY-er)
> >
> > So have at them.
> >
> > As to your question, PC, about interest in resuming them; I'm going
>  to turn it around a bit and ask for an opinion, please: do you think
> the elves should put out an ADMIN announcing these db's re-opening?
> >
> > Mike, who re-opened the little orphan dbs but didn't know what to do
> next for the poor things
> >
> Carol responds:
>
> Why not announce it, with the disruptive member gone? Maybe the posts
> would stimulate discussion. As you've no doubt noticed, we're stuck in
> a House-Elves rut on the main list. :-( Also, of course, newbies
> should know about them. It's a whole lot easier to read the
> Recommended Posts than try to read the entire archives of HPfGu to
> find out what's already been discussed and what sort of brilliant (if
> not always accurate) ideas have been tossed around the main list in
> the past.
>
> Carol, who thinks that Mike's efforts will simply be wasted if he
> doesn't announce them :-)
>
>

one of these days we'll get the HP Catalogue going and people can
really go sick :D

ewe2

-- 
Emacs vs. Vi flamewars are a pointless waste of time. Vi is the best



From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 23 00:17:12 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 00:17:12 -0000
Subject: Golden Compass
In-Reply-To: <fn5dc2+n1c8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fn6128+mabd@eGroups.com>

> Kemper wrote:
> <snip>
> What I did not like about the books, in the end, was the protagonist.
s
p
o
i
l
e
r
 
a
l
e
r
t

> Lyra was a strong female character, but in the second third books
she seems to cow tow to a boy, Will. (Who seems to represent Free
Will, iirc.) 
<snip>
> 
> What I did not like was the apparent sexism and maintained
established gender roles. <snip>

> Girl has golden compass which she uses through intuition (feminine
trait). Boy has knife (subtle phallic symbol) that he wields
(masculine trait) can cut/split anything.
<snip>
> 
> Kemper, who enjoys strong female characters in fantasy (Alice,
> Dorothy, and that chic in LotR... oh wait, there wasn't one)
>
Carol:

Thanks, Kemper. Now I know for sure that I want nothing to do wtih
either the film or the books.

Carol, wondering why Eowyn doesn't count as a strong female character
in LOTR, even if she does end up becoming a healer and, heaven
forfend, marrying the wise and gentle Faramir (who can nevertheless
wield a sword as needed)




From kempermentor at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 23 03:36:58 2008
From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kempermentor)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 03:36:58 -0000
Subject: Golden Compass
In-Reply-To: <fn6128+mabd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fn6coq+9b75@eGroups.com>


> Carol:
> 
> Thanks, Kemper. Now I know for sure that I want nothing to do wtih
> either the film or the books.
> 
> Carol, wondering why Eowyn doesn't count as a strong female character
> in LOTR, even if she does end up becoming a healer and, heaven
> forfend, marrying the wise and gentle Faramir (who can nevertheless
> wield a sword as needed)


Kemper now:
Don't get me wrong.  In many ways, His Dark Materials is better
written than HP... I just rather reread HP (some of them, anyway).

After I hit send, I remembered Eowyn and replied to myself with her as
the sole suggestion.  But no women were worthy of the Fellowship. 
It's been a while since I read the books, but didn't she pine after
Aragon?  I guess I see her warriorness as attempting to prove worth to
him.  
JMAO

;)
Kemper




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 23 03:51:50 2008
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 03:51:50 -0000
Subject: Golden Compass
In-Reply-To: <fn6coq+9b75@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fn6dkm+fqn0@eGroups.com>

> Kemper now:
> Don't get me wrong.  In many ways, His Dark Materials is better
> written than HP... I just rather reread HP (some of them, anyway).


Alla:

Heee, that actually captures it. I think it is very well written as 
well and captivating story, but I would much rather stuck with HP 
myself.

 
> After I hit send, I remembered Eowyn and replied to myself with 
her as
> the sole suggestion.  But no women were worthy of the Fellowship. 
> It's been a while since I read the books, but didn't she pine after
> Aragon?  I guess I see her warriorness as attempting to prove 
worth to
> him.  
> JMAO
> 
> ;)
> Kemper
>



Alla:

LOL. Well, Kemper it was LONG time ago, you know ;)? Women were not 
warriors for the most part and truthfully I have no problem with 
traditional gender roles in this book :)

I mean I agree that Eowyn is not very traditional, but even without 
her going out to fight, I will be okay.

And I actually agree with Lee. I think Galadriel is very strong too. 
I remember having no trouble believing that she is the leading ruler 
and not the king. 

JMO,

Alla




From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Wed Jan 23 04:32:42 2008
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 04:32:42 -0000
Subject: Golden Compass
In-Reply-To: <fn6coq+9b75@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fn6g1a+rrmc@eGroups.com>

> Kemper now:
 
> After I hit send, I remembered Eowyn and replied to myself with her as
> the sole suggestion.  But no women were worthy of the Fellowship. 
> It's been a while since I read the books, but didn't she pine after
> Aragon?  I guess I see her warriorness as attempting to prove worth to
> him.  
> JMAO

Magpie:
I don't think she was a warrior to prove herself to Aragorn. 

-m




From Schlobin at aol.com  Wed Jan 23 05:05:43 2008
From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 05:05:43 -0000
Subject: Golden Compass
In-Reply-To: <fn56ua+cgcf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fn6hv7+j6ga@eGroups.com>

from finding the Golden Compass. I may have even that much wrong.)
> 
> It looked harmless enough, but I haven't read the book. I have no idea
> how violent it is or what its themes are. If both the protagonist and
> villain are female, it might appeal more to girls than boys despite
> the genre, or boys in their early teens might not want to see it
> because they think they can't identify with a female protagonist. (I
> don't know; I'm just guessing based on that little teaser.)
> 
> Carol, not tempted to see the film herself but curious about what
> others think
>


The books have a very large following, both male and female. I HAVE 
read the books. He's a very skillfull writer, but the books are 'way 
too depressing for me. I like HAPPY endings.

Susan




From kempermentor at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 23 05:37:39 2008
From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kempermentor)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 05:37:39 -0000
Subject: Eowyn: was Golden Compass
In-Reply-To: <fn6g1a+rrmc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fn6jr3+7j73@eGroups.com>

> > Kemper earlier:
>  
> > After I hit send, I remembered Eowyn and replied to myself with her as
> > the sole suggestion.  But no women were worthy of the Fellowship. 
> > It's been a while since I read the books, but didn't she pine after
> > Aragon?  I guess I see her warriorness as attempting to prove worth to
> > him.  
> > JMAO
> 
> Magpie:
> I don't think she was a warrior to prove herself to Aragorn. 


Kemper now:
Why did she go to the battle at Minas Terith (sp?
I think it was because she was love stricken but Aragon was, like,
"you don't really do it for me, you just like me cause I'm hot" and
Eowyn was, like, "I'm going to dress up like a man a die in battle and
show you!"
I, of course, could be totally wrong in my interpretation.  But I did
not get the feeling she wanted to battle for Rohan.

Again, my interpretation.  And I know it's skewed by what an
unbearable read I felt it was.

Kemper 




From Schlobin at aol.com  Wed Jan 23 05:37:54 2008
From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 05:37:54 -0000
Subject: Was: Golden Compass and is, Eowyn, Narnia, etc.
In-Reply-To: <fn6g1a+rrmc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fn6jri+s4sj@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "sistermagpie" 
<sistermagpie at ...> wrote:
>
> > Kemper now:
>  
> > After I hit send, I remembered Eowyn and replied to myself with 
her as
> > the sole suggestion.  But no women were worthy of the Fellowship. 
> > It's been a while since I read the books, but didn't she pine 
after
> > Aragon?  I guess I see her warriorness as attempting to prove 
worth to
> > him.  
> > JMAO
> 
> Magpie:
> I don't think she was a warrior to prove herself to Aragorn. 
> 
> -m
>
No, I don't think so either. 

I'm not an expert on Tolkien's original sources.....the Kalevala and 
other Icelandic myths...but there were certainly a few 
shieldmaidens...and I see Eowyn as akin to them. 
The MOVIE shows her falling in love with Aragon, but the book is very 
clear that she desired to be loved by the King because she wished to 
be set apart from others and be valued and worthy. It is only when 
Faramir touches her heart that she truly allows herself to love.
She was a warrior to redeem her pride and her house, and to prove 
herself to HERSELF as someone who could fight on behalf of her 
beloved king and uncle.

I'm glad that Galadriel and Eowyn are in the LoTR.....and that they 
are strong women. I love Tolkien, and he was one of the wonderful, 
magical experiences of my young adulthood, and I still enjoy reading 
him. Women, however, were not integrated into the book as equal 
partners or equal human beings. The fellowship are all male. It's a 
man's adventure. I think that in Tolkien's world there was still 
quite a rigid separation in the view of men's experience and women's 
experience AND there was extensive documentation and dissemination of 
men's experiences. And, it was assumed that in documenting men's 
experiences, people were talking about PEOPLE'S experiences. 
Tolkien's horrible ordeal in the trenches of WWI is a good example.
Frankly, I'm not sure how much time he could have spent with his poor 
wife, with the Inklings, and his teachings, and his writings, and 
hanging out in the pub drinking and singing ballads in Icelandic.

JKR is quite different in that she is interested in relationships 
between humans, and is interested in love and marriage. Yes, we do 
see Sam and Rosie at the end, but both Bilbo and Frodo were 
single..they had to invent a lot of text for Aragorn and Eomer in the 
movie because there surely wasn't a lot of romantic interplay in the 
books! 

And I find C.S. Lewis' sexism very difficult to take (battles are 
ugly when women fight) as well as his discussions of how women must 
submit to men as men submit to Christ, etc. (very explicit in That 
Hideous Strength).

C.S. Lewis' books (and Tolkien's to a lesser extent) are obviously 
Christian. Yet, I have no problem with my children reading them. I 
find them far more pagan in feel and texture and spirit in some ways 
than JKR's works. I think that some people think that if their child 
embraced a different spiritual path then that would be a tragedy. If 
my children embraced a different spiritual path than mine, I might 
feel minor regret, but if they were sincere, and moral, I'd rejoice 
with them. I think that's one of the big differences among religions.
So, if you believe that your path is the only one that leads to 
salvation, you might not want your children swayed by a powerful book 
or movie. (Of course, I ALWAYS read the books my mother didn't want 
me to read).

My son is doing a book report on the Magician's Nephew (after he got 
a C minus turning in a book report on the Anomorphs or something, he 
and I have been working together to choose books. (Some of the books 
that the school requires has me puzzled..one is about a boy who runs 
away, goes off into the wilderness, lives on his own for a year, and 
THEN his parents finally come and find him, and they all live 
together in the wilderness?! Where were they before? I don't object 
to books showing difficulties and problems in life but I DO object to 
books that show things like parents neglecting their kids as being 
OKAY).

Anyway, it's wonderful..we read the Magician's Nephew out 
loud...alternating..and my son wrote this great report about how 
Lewis takes him into a different world, he can see and hear and smell 
the world, where candy is planted and grows into a toffee fruit tree, 
and dryads and fauns frolic, and animals wish you good morning with 
your breakfast (I'm quoting his report). 

The most joyful element of being a parent is when your children lead 
you back into the joy and wonder of being a child.

Susan




From Schlobin at aol.com  Wed Jan 23 05:44:21 2008
From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 05:44:21 -0000
Subject: Eowyn: was Golden Compass
In-Reply-To: <fn6jr3+7j73@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fn6k7l+t16t@eGroups.com>

 
> 
> 
> Kemper now:
> Why did she go to the battle at Minas Terith (sp?
> I think it was because she was love stricken but Aragon was, like,
> "you don't really do it for me, you just like me cause I'm hot" and
> Eowyn was, like, "I'm going to dress up like a man a die in battle and
> show you!"
> I, of course, could be totally wrong in my interpretation.  But I did
> not get the feeling she wanted to battle for Rohan.
> 
> Again, my interpretation.  And I know it's skewed by what an
> unbearable read I felt it was.
> 
> Kemper
>

So here's the canon.

Faramir says

"That I know", he said "You desired to have the love of the Lord 
Aragorn. Because he was high and puissant and you wished to have renown 
and glory and to be lifted far above the mean things that crawl on the 
earth. And as a great captain may to a young soldier he seemed to be 
admirable. For so he is, a lord among men, the greatest that now is. 
But when he gave you only understanding and pity, then you desired to 
have nothing, unless a brave death in battle..."

Remember that Eowyn was forced to see her uncle dominated by Wormtongue 
who tormented her. 

Like many men rejected by women, they think that perhaps a brave death 
is all that is left to them.

I think I'm having a problem with people assuming that the only reason 
a woman would become a warrior is related to a man.

Susan




From tonks_op at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 23 08:44:45 2008
From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:44:45 -0000
Subject: Golden Compass -
In-Reply-To: <000301c85d0a$362e28b0$67a4a8c0@FRODO>
Message-ID: <fn6upt+3maf@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Lee Storm(God Is The 
Healing Force)" <n2fgc at ...> wrote:

> In a nutshell, The Golden Compass (which is the US name) is the 
first of a trilogy written by Philip Pullman who is a devout 
atheist.  The story is almost compelling, but it is, in total, a 
slam against the RC and any other Christian belief system... 
sometimes subtle and sometimes very blatant.  The second story in 
the trilogy is The Subtle Knife.
> 
> Pullman is hoping that the movie will compel young readers to want 
to get the book and the rest of the trilogy and that the work might 
swing them away from Christianity.  


Tonks:
Thanks Lee and everyone for the information. Actually while I was 
waiting for replies I went looking on the internet and came across 
this and if you follow the link about the author's name you get some 
interesting information about him too.

SPOILER WARNING if you follow the link it tell the whole plot.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Golden_Compass_(film)

When I saw the movie I had a feeling that I was like a person 
watching a HP movie without having read the book.  In fact that is 
just what I said to the person I was with "this must be what it is 
like for all those people who go to the HP movies and have never 
read the books." I was a bit lost and could also tell that whatever 
it was they were trying to resolve was going to be continued in 
another movie. As a stand alone movie, it didn???t make much sense. 
But it was a nice little beginning of a tale, but very confusing for 
anyone who hasn???t read the book. And I didn't know there was a book 
at the time. But thought there must be, since I was so lost.

I could tell that part of it was a slam against the RC church by the 
name of the Administration and by the way that the members of it 
dressed. But I couldn't figure out what this dangerious stuff 'dust' 
was. 

Now that I know the name of the author. Pullman, I have heard that 
name before in connection with JKR. Isn???t that the man that JKR 
hates or something? Or people thought that Lockhart was based on 
him? I can't remember what it was that was being said about him in 
relation to Rowling, but I remember something was.

Tonks_op
now if I could just remember where my bed is. 





From tonks_op at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 23 08:47:37 2008
From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:47:37 -0000
Subject: Golden Compass -
In-Reply-To: <fn6upt+3maf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fn6uv9+q8tl@eGroups.com>

I tested the other link and it didn't come out to the same page.

here is the link again:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Golden_Compass_%28film%29

SPOILER.. it tells the whole story plot.

Tonks




From drednort at alphalink.com.au  Wed Jan 23 10:25:17 2008
From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 21:25:17 +1100
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Happy Birthday, Shaun!
In-Reply-To: <fn0h51+1047f@eGroups.com>
References: <fn0h51+1047f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <6650A26E44E64BF4AD352EA26DB5FAFC@ShaunPC>

Thank you for the birthday wishes, all those who offered them.

I had a very good day - my mother gave me very nice tickets to Spamalot, the 
Monty Python musical, and I greatly enjoyed myself.

As for those who say my kids are lucky to have me as a teacher - do remember 
that I admire the teaching of Snape (-8

No, seriously, I love teaching and get so much out of it myself, I can only 
hope my kids get something out of it too.

A new school year starts here next week - and love it, though I do, I wish 
it didn't start for at least another month!

Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought
Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html
(ISTJ)       | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200
"You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one
thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the
facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be
uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that
need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil
Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia 




From orphan_ann at hotmail.co.uk  Wed Jan 23 12:45:42 2008
From: orphan_ann at hotmail.co.uk (or.phan_ann)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 12:45:42 -0000
Subject: Eowyn: was Golden Compass
In-Reply-To: <fn6k7l+t16t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fn7ctm+6tfe@eGroups.com>

susanmcgee48176 wrote:
>
> Remember that Eowyn was forced to see her uncle dominated          
> by Wormtongue who tormented her. 
> 
> Like many men rejected by women, they think that perhaps a         
> brave death is all that is left to them.
> 
> I think I'm having a problem with people assuming that the         
> only reason a woman would become a warrior is related to a man.

Ann:
More canon: in "The Houses of Healing" Gandalf notes explicitly that 
Wormtongue has been dominating Eowyn as well as Theoden:

> Think you that Wormtongue had poison only for Theoden's            
> ears? "Dotard! What is the house of Eorl but a thatched barn where 
> brigands drink in the reek, and their brats roll on the floor among 
> their dogs?" Have you not heard those words before? Saruman         
> spoke them, the teacher of Wormtongue.

(I'm fairly sure he's quoting something Eowyn said earlier, but I 
can't find the exact reference.) And "The Steward and the King" makes 
it clear that she's suffering from something similar to modern 
clinical depression.

Has anyone read "Ash: A Secret History" by Mary Gentle, by the way? 
It's about a fifteenth-century female mercenary captain, and an 
invasion of Burgundy. It's a fantasy, and I recommend it, but be 
warned - it's long and unsentimental. Other strong female characters 
in good fantasy:

Luthien, Q. S.
Jane, The Iron Dragon's Daughter, Michael Swanwick*
Alyx, The Adventures of Alyx, Joanna Russ
Captain Jane Roland, Catherine Harcourt, Iskierka, &c., "Temeraire" 
series, Naomi Novik
Almost all of Diana Wynne Jones' female protagonists, especially 
Polly in Fire & Hemlock
Therru &c., Tehanu, Ursula Le Guin
Most of Studio Ghibli's films, especially Nausicaa, Kiki's Delivery 
Service, and Princess Mononoke*

That's just off the top of my head; anyone got any more?

*"Strong" doesn't necessarily mean "admirable"

Ann




From kempermentor at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 23 18:13:26 2008
From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kempermentor)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 18:13:26 -0000
Subject: Eowyn: was Golden Compass
In-Reply-To: <fn7ctm+6tfe@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fn8046+4uhp@eGroups.com>


> > Kemper now:
> > Why did she go to the battle at Minas Terith (sp?)
> > I think it was because she was love stricken but Aragon was, like,
> > "you don't really do it for me, you just like me cause I'm hot" and
> > Eowyn was, like, "I'm going to dress up like a man a die in battle and
> > show you!"
> > I, of course, could be totally wrong in my interpretation.  But I did
> > not get the feeling she wanted to battle for Rohan.
> > 
> > Again, my interpretation.  And I know it's skewed by what an
> > unbearable read I felt it was.

> Susan replied:
> So here's the canon.
> 
> Faramir says
> "That I know", he said "You desired to have the love of the Lord 
> Aragorn. Because he was high and puissant and you wished to have renown 
> and glory and to be lifted far above the mean things that crawl on 
> the earth. ... 
> But when he gave you only understanding and pity, then you desired 
> to have nothing, unless a brave death in battle..."
> 
> Remember that Eowyn was forced to see her uncle dominated by 
> Wormtongue who tormented her. 
> 
> Like many men rejected by women, they think that perhaps a brave death 
> is all that is left to them.
> 
> I think I'm having a problem with people assuming that the only 
> reason a woman would become a warrior is related to a man.

Kemper now:
Then, based on your quoted canon, you must have a problem with Farmir.
Or with JRRT, as it's his writings that suggest it.
This person isn't assuming, he's inferring based on what JRRT is implying.

I'd rather Eowyn go into battle for Rohan instead of for self-pity. 
That would have challenged gender roles a  bit more.  Though...
killing the Wictch King was cool.  Ok, as I type this, maybe Eowyn's
character developed (the only one, 'cept Gollum to do so imo).  She
stood against Witch King as protector of her uncle whatshisname. 
Woman as protector for a non-child breaks a gender role.
But she definitely went into battle because of a man.


> Ann:
> More canon: in "The Houses of Healing" Gandalf notes explicitly that 
> Wormtongue has been dominating Eowyn as well as Theoden:
> 
> > Think you that Wormtongue had poison only for Theoden's            
> > ears? "Dotard! What is the house of Eorl but a thatched barn where 
> > brigands drink in the reek, and their brats roll on the floor among 
> > their dogs?" Have you not heard those words before? Saruman         
> > spoke them, the teacher of Wormtongue.
> 
> (I'm fairly sure he's quoting something Eowyn said earlier, but I 
> can't find the exact reference.) And "The Steward and the King" makes 
> it clear that she's suffering from something similar to modern 
> clinical depression.

Kemper now:
I would need more canon to address the clinical depression.  As I'm
not into LotR, I'm disinclined to seek it myself.
But even if so, doesn't it make woman, as Eowyn, weak due to emotional
problem (abuse of Wormtongue/rejection of Aragon).
Does JRRT show Man (not a Hobbit, Dwarf, Elf) as possibly clinically
depressed?  I don't know.


> Ann:
> Other strong female characters in good fantasy:
> ...snip list...
> 
> That's just off the top of my head; anyone got any more?
> 
> *"Strong" doesn't necessarily mean "admirable"


Kemper now:
I wasn't suggesting strong meaning admirable.
I think Mrs Colter in Golden Compass is a strong evil woman.
Lewis' White Witch as well... though, in context with him as male
writer and male characters fighting her, it's has sexist overtones.
Athena
Artemis
Grendel's Mom.
Morgan Le Fey (again, at least in legend it seems Masculine v Feminine)
Speaking of...I'm sure Marion Zimmer Bradley has some as well, but
haven't read any.

Kemper






From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Wed Jan 23 20:56:06 2008
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 20:56:06 -0000
Subject: Golden Compass
In-Reply-To: <000301c85d36$40ac4cf0$67a4a8c0@FRODO>
Message-ID: <fn89l6+r8mt@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Lee Storm(God Is The Healing Force)" 
<n2fgc at ...> wrote:
>
> | Kemper, who enjoys strong female characters in fantasy (Alice,
> | Dorothy, and that chic in LotR... oh wait, there wasn't one)
> 
> [Lee]:
> Well, at least in the books, Galadriel and Iowan (forgive misspelling) were
> quite strong.  Galadriel was the queen elf, so to speak, and Iowan was a
> warrior.

Geoff:
I quite agree that Eowyn and Arwen Und?miel and Galadriel were 
valiant but I think that you have overlooked perhaps the most 
valiant woman in the Tolkien canon.

For me, the actions of the above pale into insignificance compared 
to the trials and tribulations suffered by, and the bravery of L?thien 
Tin?viel when she battled side by side with her lover Beren in their 
quest to win one of the Silmarils from the crown of Morgoth; a 
heroic story told in its fullness in the chapter "Of Beren and  
L?thien" in "The Silmarillion".





From orphan_ann at hotmail.co.uk  Wed Jan 23 22:30:05 2008
From: orphan_ann at hotmail.co.uk (or.phan_ann)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 22:30:05 -0000
Subject: Eowyn: was Golden Compass
In-Reply-To: <fn8046+4uhp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fn8f5d+b5fs@eGroups.com>

kempermentor wrote:
>
> > Ann:
> > More canon: in "The Houses of Healing" Gandalf notes explicitly  
 > > that Wormtongue has been dominating Eowyn as well as Theoden
[...] > > And "The Steward and the King" makes it clear that she's
suffering > > from something similar to modern clinical depression.
> 
> Kemper now:
> I would need more canon to address the clinical depression.  As I'm
> not into LotR, I'm disinclined to seek it myself.
> But even if so, doesn't it make woman, as Eowyn, weak due to       
> emotional problem (abuse of Wormtongue/rejection of Aragon).
> Does JRRT show Man (not a Hobbit, Dwarf, Elf) as possibly clinically
> depressed?  I don't know.

Ann:
Well, most of the Quenta Silmarillion is tragic; look at Turin
Turambar, for instance, who has it far worse than Eowyn. But Theoden
himself is a far more obvious example, and so is Wormtongue. 

I don't think that Eowyn is made out to be "weak" for especially
feminine reasons. Wormtongue has poisoned other minds, and I don't
think her problem is that she's rejected by Aragorn so much as she
constantly externalises her problems, which is why she wants him in
the first place. If she had got him, I don't think a peaceful life in
Minas Tirith would have done much for her. 

In any case, depression is an illness, and doesn't mean she's weak.
Note that her "weakness" takes the form of running away from home to
become a soldier...

> Kemper now:
> I wasn't suggesting strong meaning admirable.

Ann:
Never said you did, but Jane does some pretty nasty things. And Lady
Eboshi can be easily read as a villain, and Azula *is* the villain.

Ann




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed Jan 23 22:32:33 2008
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 22:32:33 -0000
Subject: Eowyn: was Golden Compass
In-Reply-To: <fn8046+4uhp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fn8fa1+cvdv@eGroups.com>


> 
> Kemper now:
> Then, based on your quoted canon, you must have a problem with Farmir.
> Or with JRRT, as it's his writings that suggest it.
> This person isn't assuming, he's inferring based on what JRRT is implying.

Pippin:
She wanted to die because she'd been rejected. But she wanted to fight
to win renown and recognition for her valor as well as to protect her
people. "But I am of the House of Eorl and not a serving-woman. 
I can ride and wield blade, and I do not fear either pain or death. " 
She's already learned to ride and wield a blade, things she did not 
learn to do because of a man but because there was a tradition of 
shield maidens. 

Aragorn tells her it's needless for her to go to battle, but the slaying
of the witch-king proves he is wrong.

Later she seems to want to self-medicate her depression by continuing
to fight: "To health? It may be so. At least while there is an empty
saddle of some fallen Rider that I can fill, and there are deeds to
do. But to hope? I do not know."

IIRC, Tolkien invented the character at the request of his daughter who
wanted to see a woman fighter in the book.

> Kemper now:
> I would need more canon to address the clinical depression.  As I'm
> not into LotR, I'm disinclined to seek it myself.
> But even if so, doesn't it make woman, as Eowyn, weak due to emotional
> problem (abuse of Wormtongue/rejection of Aragon).
> Does JRRT show Man (not a Hobbit, Dwarf, Elf) as possibly clinically
> depressed?  I don't know.

Pippin:
Oh yeah. Denethor commits suicide because of it. "[T]he vision of the
great might of Mordor that was shown to him fed the despair of
his heart until it overthrew his mind."

Pippin




From kempermentor at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 24 00:51:42 2008
From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kempermentor)
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 00:51:42 -0000
Subject: Eowyn: was Golden Compass
In-Reply-To: <fn8f5d+b5fs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fn8neu+9b76@eGroups.com>

 
> > Kemper earlier:
> > Does JRRT show Man (not a Hobbit, Dwarf, Elf) as possibly clinically
> > depressed?  I don't know.
> 
> Ann:
> Well, most of the Quenta Silmarillion is tragic; look at Turin
> Turambar, for instance, who has it far worse than Eowyn. But Theoden
> himself is a far more obvious example, and so is Wormtongue. 

Kemper now:
I've only read LotR and the Hobbit.
I don't recall Theoden being /clinically/ depressed, rather I see him
as more situationally depressed which is brought on by Wormtongue's
deceitful whispers.  As soon as Theoden discovers the truth of
Wormtongue, doesn't his mood change to someone more... kingly?

I did not get out of the read that Wormtongue was depressed.

> Ann:
> I don't think that Eowyn is made out to be "weak" for especially
> feminine reasons. Wormtongue has poisoned other minds, and I don't
> think her problem is that she's rejected by Aragorn so much as she
> constantly externalises her problems, which is why she wants him in
> the first place. 

Kemper now:
I agree with you that Eowyn may be externalizing.  Even though /we/
might not think her problem is Aragon's rejection, /she/ thinks it is
and it is this thought/feeling which JRRT wrote that is weak... at
least to me.

> Ann:
> In any case, depression is an illness, and doesn't mean she's weak.
> Note that her "weakness" takes the form of running away from home to
> become a soldier...

Kemper now:
No, depression doesn't mean she's weak.  What she does with the
depression (or rather, what JRRT has her do with the depression) is
weak.  Again, imhysao.


Kemper




From drdara at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 24 01:27:21 2008
From: drdara at yahoo.com (danielle dassero)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 17:27:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Was: Golden Compass and is, Eowyn, Narnia, etc.
Message-ID: <190079.16947.qm@web60719.mail.yahoo.com>

Susan:
(Some of the books 
that the school requires has me puzzled..one is about a boy who runs 
away, goes off into the wilderness, lives on his own for a year, and 
THEN his parents finally come and find him, and they all live 
together in the wilderness?! Where were they before? I don't object 
to books showing difficulties and problems in life but I DO object to 
books that show things like parents neglecting their kids as being 
OKAY).
 

omg I love that book, the kid lives in a tree and makes acorn pancakes, wonderful, can't remember the name though lol. The author eventually wrote some sequels, the thing to remember with the original book it was written back in the 50's i think and was set in the 30's or 40's I believe. Its one of my favorite stories, found the title My Side of the Mountain, published in 1959, lord i love google lol. 

Every kid thinks about running away at one point or another; few get farther than the end of the block. Young Sam Gribley gets to the end of the block and keeps going--all the way to the Catskill Mountains of upstate New York. There he sets up house in a huge hollowed-out tree, with a falcon and a weasel for companions and his wits as his tool for survival. In a spellbinding, touching, funny account, Sam learns to live off the land, and grows up a little in the process. Blizzards, hunters, loneliness, and fear all battle to drive Sam back to city life. But his desire for freedom, independence, and adventure is stronger. No reader will be immune to the compulsion to go right out and start whittling fishhooks and befriending raccoons. 
Jean Craighead George, author of more than 80 children's books, including the Newbery Medal-winning Julie of the Wolves, created another prizewinner with My Side of the Mountain--a Newbery Honor Book, an ALA Notable Book, and a Hans Christian Andersen Award Honor Book. Astonishingly, she wrote its sequel, On the Far Side of the Mountain, 30 years later, and a decade after that penned the final book in the trilogy, Frightful's Mountain, told from the falcon's point of view. George has no doubt shaped generations of young readers with her outdoor adventures of the mind and spirit. (Ages 9 to 12) --Emilie Coulter 




      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Looking for last minute shopping deals?  
Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.  http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From marion11111 at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 24 03:41:09 2008
From: marion11111 at yahoo.com (marion11111)
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 03:41:09 -0000
Subject: Golden Compass
In-Reply-To: <fn56ua+cgcf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fn91cl+2pit@eGroups.com>


>
> Susan wrote:
> > 
> > I have not seen the movie - but would like to hear from those who
> have..is it any good? Is it scary? My kids would like to see it, and I
> don't want to have to go and look at it first...
> > 
> > The series is considered agressively anti-Christian. 
> 
> Carol responds:
> 
> that's what I've heard, too--
(SNIP)
> 
> It looked harmless enough, but I haven't read the book. I have no idea
> how violent it is or what its themes are. If both the protagonist and
> villain are female, it might appeal more to girls than boys despite
> the genre, or boys in their early teens might not want to see it
> because they think they can't identify with a female protagonist. (I
> don't know; I'm just guessing based on that little teaser.)
> 
> Carol, not tempted to see the film herself but curious about what
> others think


marion11111 responds - late to the party as always:

The books are amazing, but a lot of work!  I found I needed to give them full 
concentration and much re-reading.  They are worth it though IMO. I have to say I thought 
they were blatantly anti-church especially the last book.  This didn't really bother me since 
I am often unhappy with the church myself, but I know quite a few bookish adults who 
have read the whole series and tell me "I didn't see any anti-religious message."   Go 
figure.

To answer the original question about taking kids to the movie, I'd say don't worry about 
the religious message, but consider the level of violence. All religious references are 
removed from the movie and the enemy is just an authority group who want to take free 
will away from children to use for some other purpose not clearly explained.  The message 
kids come away with (according to my middle school students most of whom have NOT 
read the books) is that kids are strong and smart, free will is good, authority can be 
corrupt, and families and friends are important.  Yes, I actually had a boy say "authority 
can be corrupt."  One student thought it WAS a religious movie because of the talk about 
souls.  She said they discussed it at confirmation class and tried to decide what their own 
daemons would be.

If your kids are young, it might be a little slow and complicated for them.  And I know that 
I, as a child, would have been upset by the animal violence.  I was one of those kids who 
could watch any number of gunfights, etc with humans, but cried all night if a dog got 
kicked.

MAJOR SPOILERS HERE
S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S
The Nicole Kidman character is pretty cruel to both Lyra's and her own daemon (animal 
helper spirits).  She smacks her own daemon and sends him flying and Lyra's daemon 
nearly gets choked. The polar bear fight was brilliantly done, but disturbingly realistic.  I 
was shocked and I'm a grown-up.

I often check a website called Screen-it when i wonder about a movie for kids.  The movie 
will be totally ruined for you since they spell it all out, but they leave no stone unturned 
and don't pass judgement.  Every little thing is tabulated from swear words to violence to 
sex to drinking to scary music, angry family scenes, dark rooms, disrespect, bathroom 
jokes, loud noises, bright flashes of light, etc.  Basically, anything that might make any 
child upset or any parent annoyed is counted and listed.  It's very easy to decide which 
movies work for your own kids.  And, honestly, they didn't pay me for that endorsement.

Hope this helps.




From marion11111 at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 24 03:54:36 2008
From: marion11111 at yahoo.com (marion11111)
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 03:54:36 -0000
Subject: Was: Golden Compass and is, Eowyn, Narnia, etc.
In-Reply-To: <190079.16947.qm@web60719.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <fn925s+jt39@eGroups.com>

danielle says:
> 
> omg I love that book, the kid lives in a tree and makes acorn pancakes, wonderful, can't 
remember the name though lol. The author eventually wrote some sequels, the thing to 
remember with the original book it was written back in the 50's i think and was set in the 
30's or 40's I believe. Its one of my favorite stories, found the title My Side of the 
Mountain, published in 1959, lord i love google lol. 
> 


marion11111:

Oh, oh, oh, I LOVED that book in the fourth grade!  So much!!  And I hated the outdoors 
and camping and everything about it, but I loved that book.  Kids still love it.  It's the detail 
I think.  I really felt like I could survive in the wilderness just by reading that book.  I loved 
the Little House books for the same reason. To this day, even though I know better, i just 
"know" I could slaughter a hog, make cheese, build a cabin, hinge a door with leather, trap 
fish and make a chimney because - Hey, I read it in Little House.  Juie of the Wolves - also 
by Jean Craighead George - has the same kind of survival detail.

I don't think as adults we should take the "abandoned child" concept too seriously.  It 
certainly never occured to me as a kid that the parents were neglectful, but instead I 
thought only of the boy and how smart and independent he was.  And couldn't I be the 
same?  

Another favorite childhood author, Beverly Cleary, has one of her characters playing make 
believe with her best friend and before the game can start they "have to get rid of the 
parents."  Have them eaten by wolves, lost in a snow storm, captured by pirates, but no 
children's fantasy story can start until the parents are out of the picture.  Think about it.   
Narnia, Nancy Drew, Little Women, the Melendy family, etc. all have children managing 
with little or no parental involvment.  




From predigirl1 at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 24 04:29:16 2008
From: predigirl1 at yahoo.com (Alex Hogan)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 20:29:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] watched Wrinkle in Time Again
In-Reply-To: <fn1hs5+a9ba@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <134539.28129.qm@web53006.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

No, I'm totally lost as to what you are talking about. Please elaborate!
   
  Alex Hogan

susanmcgee48176 <Schlobin at aol.com> wrote:
          Has anyone else watched this? I loved the Albus Dumbledore quote (as I 
think I've said before)...this time, I marveled at how well the film 
makers reflected the values and spirit of the book...

I think that it's a stitch that Mrs. Whatsis quotes Pascal, Seneca, 
Shakespeare, Horace (she finds it difficult to verbalize so she uses 
quotations,) Euripides, Cervantes, Goethe...but in the film she quotes 
DD, not JKR...

Fun...

Susan



                         

       
---------------------------------
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From willsonkmom at msn.com  Thu Jan 24 04:54:20 2008
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 04:54:20 -0000
Subject: Sweeney Todd?  Bloody Hell!
Message-ID: <fn95ls+oe8l@eGroups.com>

I was wondering, given that 3 HP actors are in the movie, has anyone 
seen Sweeney Todd? My 13-year-old is crushed that we won't let him go. 
I intend to watch it (maybe) after it comes out on DVD---on an empty 
stomach, in the day time, in installments, with something to hide 
behind. 

Potioncat






From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 24 04:56:44 2008
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 04:56:44 -0000
Subject: Sweeney Todd?  Bloody Hell!
In-Reply-To: <fn95ls+oe8l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fn95qc+pe8p@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at ...> 
wrote:
>
> I was wondering, given that 3 HP actors are in the movie, has anyone 
> seen Sweeney Todd? My 13-year-old is crushed that we won't let him 
go. 
> I intend to watch it (maybe) after it comes out on DVD---on an empty 
> stomach, in the day time, in installments, with something to hide 
> behind. 
> 
> Potioncat
>


Alla:

I am telling you - I am scared that easily that as 30 something old I 
am not watching it, heheh.

But I have heard from several people that it is good :)




From predigirl1 at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 24 05:25:02 2008
From: predigirl1 at yahoo.com (Alex Hogan)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 21:25:02 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Sweeney Todd?  Bloody Hell!
In-Reply-To: <fn95qc+pe8p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <612962.26032.qm@web53011.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

It's not THAT icky! The blood is VERY red, as is not realistic. My 8 year old daughter can handle it.
   
  Alex Hogan

dumbledore11214 <dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com> wrote:
          --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at ...> 
wrote:
>
> I was wondering, given that 3 HP actors are in the movie, has anyone 
> seen Sweeney Todd? My 13-year-old is crushed that we won't let him 
go. 
> I intend to watch it (maybe) after it comes out on DVD---on an empty 
> stomach, in the day time, in installments, with something to hide 
> behind. 
> 
> Potioncat
>

Alla:

I am telling you - I am scared that easily that as 30 something old I 
am not watching it, heheh.

But I have heard from several people that it is good :)



                         

       
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From tonks_op at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 24 06:39:19 2008
From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks)
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 06:39:19 -0000
Subject: Sweeney Todd?  Bloody Hell!
In-Reply-To: <fn95ls+oe8l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fn9bqn+68sh@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at ...> 
wrote:
>
> I was wondering, given that 3 HP actors are in the movie, has anyone 
> seen Sweeney Todd? My 13-year-old is crushed that we won't let him 
go. I intend to watch it (maybe) after it comes out on DVD---on an 
empty stomach, in the day time, in installments, with something to hide 
> behind. 

Tonks:
3 of them are in it? I know that Bella is, who are the others? I want 
to see it because of her. I saw an old version of it on TV a couple of 
weeks ago. I expect on a large screen, it might be a bit much. I can't 
get anyone to go with me and it is the sort of movie that is best to 
share. I don't care for horror movies, but I am hoping that this is a 
bit different. Might not want to eat any meat pies for awhile after 
seeing it, however. ;-)

Tonks_op




From Schlobin at aol.com  Thu Jan 24 06:42:14 2008
From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176)
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 06:42:14 -0000
Subject: watched Wrinkle in Time Again
In-Reply-To: <134539.28129.qm@web53006.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <fn9c06+dcik@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Alex Hogan <predigirl1 at ...> 
wrote:
>
> No, I'm totally lost as to what you are talking about. Please 
elaborate!
>    
>   Alex Hogan
> 
> susanmcgee48176 <Schlobin at ...> wrote:
>           Has anyone else watched this? I loved the Albus 
Dumbledore quote (as I 
> think I've said before)...this time, I marveled at how well the 
film 
> makers reflected the values and spirit of the book...
> 
> I think that it's a stitch that Mrs. Whatsis quotes Pascal, Seneca, 
> Shakespeare, Horace (she finds it difficult to verbalize so she 
uses 
> quotations,) Euripides, Cervantes, Goethe...but in the film she 
quotes 
> DD, not JKR...
> 
> Fun...
> 
> Susan
> 
> 
> 
>                          
> 
>        
In the book and movie, there is a character called Mrs. Whatsis. She 
has trouble materializing into human form, and trouble talking in 
sentences. So she uses quotations to impart information and to 
communicate. 
All of her OTHER quotes (besides the DD one) are from real world 
authors in our universe...so for example she would quote Sir Arthur 
Conan Doyle, not Sherlock Holmes....
But she quotes Albus Dumbledore as if he were a real person in the 
real world rather than citing J.K. Rowling.
I thought it was fun. Hope that is more clear.

Susan




From mcrudele78 at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 24 07:13:51 2008
From: mcrudele78 at yahoo.com (Mike)
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 07:13:51 -0000
Subject: Sweeney Todd?  Bloody Hell!
In-Reply-To: <fn9bqn+68sh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fn9drf+sq63@eGroups.com>


> Tonks:
> 3 of them are in it? I know that Bella is, who are the others? 

Mike:
Alan Rickman and Timothy Spall (Wormtail) are the other two.

Don't ask me about the movie, Although IMB says it's rated "R" for 
graphic violence. Somehow that doesn't sound condusive to children, 
but one never knows in this day and age.




From mcrudele78 at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 24 07:48:09 2008
From: mcrudele78 at yahoo.com (Mike)
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 07:48:09 -0000
Subject: Trailer for HBP
In-Reply-To: <bc2.1e3ace3b.34c17ca4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <fn9frp+hv09@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Debby970095 at ... wrote:
>
> Ignore the non-English at the beginning. Sorry I do not know what 
language  
> it is but it does go to English and has some neat things in it. I am 
getting  
> excited already and the movie does not come out until November!!!
>  
>  
> Debby
>  
> _Cine.gr - Harry  Potter and the Half-Blood Prince_ 
> (http://www.cine.gr/film.asp?id=710326&page=8)  
> 

Mike:
Try this trailer, it's a little better. There's 3 more on that site, 
sorry, I didn't get the url for the preceeding page.

http://www.movieweb.com/video/V07LbcfisuyOUV




From drdara at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 24 13:38:54 2008
From: drdara at yahoo.com (danielle dassero)
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 05:38:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Was: Golden Compass and is, Eowyn, Narnia, etc.
Message-ID: <684957.26747.qm@web60711.mail.yahoo.com>

I love Little House books too, still have all of them. (In fact I have all the books from when I was a kid, my babysitter books, sweet valley twins and high and many more). Bugs the crap outa me that they are placed in the fiction section when they are an autobiography. Reading my side of the mountain, I never ever thought the parents were neglectful either. It made me want to live in a tree and eat acorn pancakes too lol. I also loved Beverly Clearly as well, and I read her biography and after what she went thru as child, I find it amazing that she was able to write such good books about children and the wonders of childhoos. I also liked the Fudge books, can't remember the author, but Fudge was the bratty little brother, I remember one was called Superfudge. 

Danielle





> 
> Marion111:

Oh, oh, oh, I LOVED that book in the fourth grade! So much!! And I hated the outdoors 
and camping and everything about it, but I loved that book. Kids still love it. It's the detail 
I think. I really felt like I could survive in the wilderness just by reading that book. I loved 
the Little House books for the same reason. To this day, even though I know better, i just 
"know" I could slaughter a hog, make cheese, build a cabin, hinge a door with leather, trap 
fish and make a chimney because - Hey, I read it in Little House. Juie of the Wolves - also 
by Jean Craighead George - has the same kind of survival detail.

I don't think as adults we should take the "abandoned child" concept too seriously. It 
certainly never occured to me as a kid that the parents were neglectful, but instead I 
thought only of the boy and how smart and independent he was. And couldn't I be the 
same? 

Another favorite childhood author, Beverly Cleary, has one of her characters playing make 
believe with her best friend and before the game can start they "have to get rid of the 
parents." Have them eaten by wolves, lost in a snow storm, captured by pirates, but no 
children's fantasy story can start until the parents are out of the picture. Think about it. 
Narnia, Nancy Drew, Little Women, the Melendy family, etc. all have children managing 
with little or no parental involvment. 





      ____________________________________________________________________________________
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Thu Jan 24 16:08:16 2008
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 16:08:16 -0000
Subject: Sweeney Todd?  Bloody Hell!
In-Reply-To: <fn95ls+oe8l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fnad5g+3jjk@eGroups.com>

Potioncat:
> I was wondering, given that 3 HP actors are in the movie, has anyone 
> seen Sweeney Todd? My 13-year-old is crushed that we won't let him 
go. 
> I intend to watch it (maybe) after it comes out on DVD---on an empty 
> stomach, in the day time, in installments, with something to hide 
> behind. 

Magpie:
Spoilers for ST:

S

P

O

I

L

E

R

Magpie:
I didn't mind the blood so much as the dropping on the head. But I 
loved it--Sweeney Todd is my favorite musical ever. It's brilliant!

It has a kid in it, btw, a part usually played by an adult tenor. They 
could make him a little boy in the movie and he's great, but he is an 
alcoholic who eventually murders someone by slitting his throat.

I'd say as a parent to be sure you might want to see it yourself if 
you're wondering. You could probably decide how well your child 
handles stylized violence and lots and lots 'o blood. (I swear Alan 
Rickman's character seemed to be harder to kill than Jason Voorhees!)




From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Thu Jan 24 16:09:56 2008
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 16:09:56 -0000
Subject: Was: Golden Compass and is, Eowyn, Narnia, etc.
In-Reply-To: <684957.26747.qm@web60711.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <fnad8k+gihn@eGroups.com>

Danielle:
I also liked the Fudge books, can't remember the author, but Fudge was 
the bratty little brother, I remember one was called Superfudge. 

Magpie:
Judy Blume.

-m




From kempermentor at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 24 17:06:19 2008
From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kempermentor)
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 17:06:19 -0000
Subject: Was: Golden Compass and is, Eowyn, Narnia, etc.
In-Reply-To: <fnad8k+gihn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fnagib+2c2t@eGroups.com>


> Danielle:
> I also liked the Fudge books, can't remember the author, but Fudge was 
> the bratty little brother, I remember one was called Superfudge. 
> 
> Magpie:
> Judy Blume.


Kemper now:
I was not a fan of Superfudge, but I loved Blubber.  It was the first
time I laughed out loud in a book, learning that the written word
could be funny.

Blubber just got done with her report on whales and the narrator tells
us that the class wasn't clapping because the report was good, they
were clapping because it was over. I couldn't stop laughing and the
good Sister kicked me out.  

I also read Are You There God, It's Me Margaret in the fifth grade. 
As a boy without sisters, I didn't get it.  

And Blume's Then Again, Maybe I Won't did nothing to prepare me for
the onset of puberty.   Wtf was a nocturnal emission or a wet dream?
As a young sixth grader, this boy didn't know and didn't want to
appear to stupid by asking anyone.

Kemper




From alexisnguyen at gmail.com  Thu Jan 24 17:48:00 2008
From: alexisnguyen at gmail.com (P. Alexis Nguyen)
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 12:48:00 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Was: Golden Compass and is, Eowyn, Narnia, etc.
In-Reply-To: <fn925s+jt39@eGroups.com>
References: <190079.16947.qm@web60719.mail.yahoo.com> <fn925s+jt39@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b6e131bf0801240948pf92c23dy7078093eff248880@mail.gmail.com>

marion11111:
> Think about it.
> Narnia, Nancy Drew, Little Women, the Melendy family, etc.
> all have children managing
> with little or no parental involvment.

Parental involvement really ruins the whole "independent adventure"
thing.  I do agree.  It's not a matter of "absentee parenting" or
anything.  In fact, that didn't even occur to me until today.

Anyway, I really liked the Narnia books when I was younger, but I do
admit that I never saw the blatant Christian thing.  I think that is,
partially, because I grew up in another country and Christian thought
wasn't as integrated into society there as it is in countries like the
US.

I LOVED Nancy Drew, though.  Nancy Drew and the Hardy Boys were great.
 There was a point when I wanted to have three kids and named
them...well, the obvious.  Good times.  Actually, funny story, my
little cousin was visiting us a few years ago, and she got into my
bookcase.  She's fairly good with her books, so I would've never known
except that I discovered one of my super mysteries (the Drew-Hardy
crossover books for those not in the know) had a folded corner on one
of the pages.  Yes, that's how much I loved those books.  :)

Good times.

~Ali



From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Thu Jan 24 18:06:00 2008
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 18:06:00 -0000
Subject: Was: Golden Compass and is, Eowyn, Narnia, etc.
In-Reply-To: <fnagib+2c2t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fnak28+9lrl@eGroups.com>

> > Danielle:
> > I also liked the Fudge books, can't remember the author, but Fudge 
was 
> > the bratty little brother, I remember one was called Superfudge. 
> > 
> > Magpie:
> > Judy Blume.
> 
> 
> Kemper now:
> I was not a fan of Superfudge, but I loved Blubber.  It was the first
> time I laughed out loud in a book, learning that the written word
> could be funny.

Magpie:
I was never a JB fan (though of course I've read every single book you 
mention!), but I *loved* Blubber. I must have read it 50 times.

-m




From gav_fiji at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 24 20:57:04 2008
From: gav_fiji at yahoo.com (Goddlefrood)
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 20:57:04 -0000
Subject: Sweeney Todd?  Bloody Hell!
In-Reply-To: <fn95ls+oe8l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fnau30+d83m@eGroups.com>

> Potioncat
> I was wondering, given that 3 HP actors are in the movie, 
> has anyone seen Sweeney Todd? My 13-year-old is crushed 
> that we won't let him go.

Goddlefrood:
It's certainly a film I will go and see based not only on what's 
been written here, but also on the fact that this is a deeply 
entrenched part of the English culture.

Sweeney Todd, btw, was also known as the demon barber of 
Fleet Street, so that might also be a pointer as to what 
the film contains. He sent his victims to the pie shop 
next door for the delectation of the local populace, pies 
that were often served with a nice glass of chianti (slurp, 
slurp, slurp).

I've known about the story since I was a very small boy and 
would tentatively suggest that a 13 year old could handle it 
well enough, particularly if, as stated by others, the gore 
is stylised.

Goddlefrood




From tonks_op at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 24 21:14:33 2008
From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks)
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 21:14:33 -0000
Subject: Sweeney Todd?  Bloody Hell!
In-Reply-To: <fn9drf+sq63@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fnav3p+j0kk@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Mike" <mcrudele78 at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> > Tonks:
> > 3 of them are in it? I know that Bella is, who are the others? 
> 
> Mike:
> Alan Rickman and Timothy Spall (Wormtail) are the other two.
> 

Tonks:
ALLAN RICKMAN!!!!!!!??????  How did I miss that bit of news?!! 

Grabbing my coat and heading for the movies!!!  
This I have got to see!! How much snow is out there? Get out the plows 
and get out of my way!!

Tonks_op




From tonks_op at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 24 21:19:23 2008
From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks)
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 21:19:23 -0000
Subject: Sweeney Todd?  Bloody Hell!
In-Reply-To: <fnau30+d83m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fnavcr+k6sj@eGroups.com>

> Goddlefrood:
 the gore 
> is stylised.
> 

Tonks:
Just what is 'stylised' gore? Gore is gore, isn't it? ????

Tonks_op




From gav_fiji at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 24 22:00:43 2008
From: gav_fiji at yahoo.com (Goddlefrood)
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 22:00:43 -0000
Subject: Sweeney Todd?  Bloody Hell!
In-Reply-To: <fnavcr+k6sj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fnb1qb+on36@eGroups.com>

> Tonks:
> Just what is 'stylised' gore? Gore is gore, isn't it? ????

Goddlefrood:
Not really. There are two particular films that spring to 
mind, both directed by Quentin Tarantino. There have been 
several imitators too. 

The fims, and specific scenes, that I would classify as 
stylised gore are:

(i) The ear cutting scene from Reservoir Dogs. It's hardly 
realistic, IMO, and thus stylised.

(ii) The exposition on the life of O'Ren Ishi'i in Kill Bill, 
Volume 1, where there is plenty of blood, but it's done as a 
cartoon (and the scene where she cuts off Boss Tanaka's head, 
come to think of it).

I distinguish between realistic and sylised gore, hopefully 
that may assist you in seeing why.




From drdara at yahoo.com  Fri Jan 25 00:28:05 2008
From: drdara at yahoo.com (danielle dassero)
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 16:28:05 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Was: Golden Compass and is, Eowyn, Narnia, etc.
Message-ID: <770735.61355.qm@web60719.mail.yahoo.com>

I don't think I've read blubber, I read are there god in 7th grade as part of english and the guys i walked home with  used to the i must i must i must increase my bust exercise and just cracked me up.
Danielle




> Kemper now:
I was not a fan of Superfudge, but I loved Blubber. It was the first
time I laughed out loud in a book, learning that the written word
could be funny.

Blubber just got done with her report on whales and the narrator tells
us that the class wasn't clapping because the report was good, they
were clapping because it was over. I couldn't stop laughing and the
good Sister kicked me out. 

I also read Are You There God, It's Me Margaret in the fifth grade. 
As a boy without sisters, I didn't get it. 

And Blume's Then Again, Maybe I Won't did nothing to prepare me for
the onset of puberty. Wtf was a nocturnal emission or a wet dream?
As a young sixth grader, this boy didn't know and didn't want to
appear to stupid by asking anyone.

Kemper





      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page. 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From drdara at yahoo.com  Fri Jan 25 00:32:15 2008
From: drdara at yahoo.com (danielle dassero)
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 16:32:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Was: Golden Compass and is, Eowyn, Narnia, etc.
Message-ID: <609561.93700.qm@web60720.mail.yahoo.com>

Ali:
Anyway, I really liked the Narnia books when I was younger, but I do
admit that I never saw the blatant Christian thing. I think that is,
partially, because I grew up in another country and Christian thought
wasn't as integrated into society there as it is in countries like the
US.


Danielle now;

I never got the Christian feel of it till I read the very last Narnia adventure. Admittly I was an adult when I read it. I was very dissappointed in the ending in the last book, I really was, the whole Susan thing bugged me 



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From minnesotatiffany at hotmail.com  Fri Jan 25 04:48:21 2008
From: minnesotatiffany at hotmail.com (Tiffany B. Clark)
Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 04:48:21 -0000
Subject: Was: Golden Compass and is, Eowyn, Narnia, etc.
In-Reply-To: <609561.93700.qm@web60720.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <fnbpml+cuv3@eGroups.com>

> Danielle now;
> 
> I never got the Christian feel of it till I read the very last Narnia 
adventure. Admittly I was an adult when I read it. I was very 
dissappointed in the ending in the last book, I really was, the whole 
Susan thing bugged me.

Tiffany:

I found the Christian elements & themes in the Narnia books from the 
first book.  I read all of the books, mainly in high school & well 
after SS was out in the USA.  I didn't care for the ending in the last 
book, but the DH ending grew on me with time for the HP books.  I never 
read a lot of fantasy prior to SS in 1997, but since then I've read & 
bought a lot of books in the genre.





From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Fri Jan 25 07:31:54 2008
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 07:31:54 -0000
Subject: Was: Golden Compass and is, Eowyn, Narnia, etc.
In-Reply-To: <609561.93700.qm@web60720.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <fnc39a+o0gb@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, danielle dassero <drdara at ...> wrote:
>
> Ali:
> Anyway, I really liked the Narnia books when I was younger, but I do
> admit that I never saw the blatant Christian thing. I think that is,
> partially, because I grew up in another country and Christian thought
> wasn't as integrated into society there as it is in countries like the
> US.
> 
> 
> Danielle now;
> 
> I never got the Christian feel of it till I read the very last Narnia adventure. Admittly I was 
an adult when I read it. I was very dissappointed in the ending in the last book, I really 
was, the whole Susan thing bugged me 

Geoff:
It should be remembered that "The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe" 
was specifically written to introduce children and young people to the 
basic ideas of the Christian faith. C.S.Lewis left a greater legacy in the 
UK with his extensive writings about belief and worship.

I think his point about Susan in the last book was that faith is a choice 
and some people, having been practising Christians, can still drift away 
from it; I have examples of that in my own family.




From s_ings at yahoo.com  Fri Jan 25 15:28:41 2008
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 10:28:41 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Happy Birthday, Gail!
Message-ID: <613381.95898.qm@web63405.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

*runs into the party room, streamers trailing behind*

I'm not late am I? No? Good, then let's get this party
started. :D

*finishes up the decorating with a touch of glittery
confetti and heads off in search of food*

Today's birthday honouree is Gail. Birthday owls can
be sent care of this list or directly to:
houseofbohacek at earthlink.net

*returns with trolley of nibblies, assorted beverages
(some with smoke rising from the glasses) and a
towering, multi-coloured cake*

I hope this day is filled with friends, fun and many
happy surprises.

Happy Birthday, Gail!

Sheryll the Birthday Elf

Join the fun at Convention Alley 2008



      Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers and share what you know at http://ca.answers.yahoo.com



From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Fri Jan 25 18:27:02 2008
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 18:27:02 -0000
Subject: Sweeney Todd?  Bloody Hell!
In-Reply-To: <fnavcr+k6sj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fnd9lm+k45f@eGroups.com>

> > Goddlefrood:
>  the gore 
> > is stylised.
> > 
> 
> Tonks:
> Just what is 'stylised' gore? Gore is gore, isn't it? ????

Magpie:
Remember you're talking to a horror movie fan here, so I probably see 
more difference than you do.

But I mean, you know, that it's kind of like a comic book. It's 
splatter rather than something where you're really identifying with 
pain or sadism. Lots of blood, but not the lingering focus on the 
vulnerable flesh of, say, the Hostel movies, or the grossness of Ichi 
the Killer.

-m




From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Fri Jan 25 18:32:26 2008
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 18:32:26 -0000
Subject: Eowyn: was Golden Compass
In-Reply-To: <fn6jr3+7j73@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fnd9vq+o3mu@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "kempermentor" 
<kempermentor at ...> wrote:
>
> > > Kemper earlier:
> >  
> > > After I hit send, I remembered Eowyn and replied to myself 
with her as
> > > the sole suggestion.  But no women were worthy of the 
Fellowship. 
> > > It's been a while since I read the books, but didn't she pine 
after
> > > Aragon?  I guess I see her warriorness as attempting to prove 
worth to
> > > him.  
> > > JMAO
> > 
> > Magpie:
> > I don't think she was a warrior to prove herself to Aragorn. 
> 
> 
> Kemper now:
> Why did she go to the battle at Minas Terith (sp?

Magpie:

I asked for Eowyn thoughts from somebody who knows that part of the 
book better than I do (I'm all about the hobbits, myself). I think 
Eowyn definitely goes into battle feeling self-pity and, to quote 
someone else, she is a bit of a glory hound. But that's not 
particularly female--in fact, I'd say it's sort of the opposite, 
since proving onesself in battle or going out with a bang is often 
celebrated in male characters. She's traveling with Merry, who has 
also been ordered to stay behind, and wants to prove himself.
 

For Tolkien, disobeying commands isn't a good thing, but he forgives 
it depending on the motive. Eowyn and Merry get sympathy for how 
they feel, but despite the good they do their decision to disobey 
Theoden's orders is simply a selfish thing so they can't be praised 
for it. By contrast, the decision to disobey an order of Denethor to 
save Faramir is a good thing in itself because the person was trying 
to do what was right and follow a higher morality.

Here's the discussion on the subject when I asked the question:

http://cressidarambles.livejournal.com/6029.html

-m






From tonks_op at yahoo.com  Fri Jan 25 20:10:30 2008
From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks)
Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 20:10:30 -0000
Subject: Sweeney Todd?  Bloody Hell!
In-Reply-To: <fnd9lm+k45f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fndfnm+5cdf@eGroups.com>

> > Tonks:
> > Just what is 'stylised' gore? Gore is gore, isn't it? ????
> 
> Magpie:
> Remember you're talking to a horror movie fan here, so I probably see 
> more difference than you do.
> 
> But I mean, you know, that it's kind of like a comic book. It's 
> splatter rather than something where you're really identifying with 
> pain or sadism. Lots of blood, but not the lingering focus on the 
> vulnerable flesh of, say, the Hostel movies, or the grossness of Ichi 
> the Killer.

Tonks:
Oh, my... I have never seen any of the ones that you mentioned. I don't 
like Horror movies. But the way you talk about it .. hum... makes me 
wonder... do you say 'Lord Voldemort', 'He Who Must Not Be Names', 
or 'The Dark Lord'?? ;-)

Tonks_op





From drdara at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 26 00:30:27 2008
From: drdara at yahoo.com (danielle dassero)
Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 16:30:27 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Sweeney Todd?  Bloody Hell!
Message-ID: <394937.82597.qm@web60720.mail.yahoo.com>

hehehehe I like Lord Thingy or Moldie Voldie myself
lmao

Danielle


Tonks:
Oh, my... I have never seen any of the ones that you mentioned. I don't 
like Horror movies. But the way you talk about it .. hum... makes me 
wonder... do you say 'Lord Voldemort', 'He Who Must Not Be Names', 
or 'The Dark Lord'?? ;-)


 _


      ____________________________________________________________________________________
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know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.  http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ 


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From tonks_op at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 26 05:04:05 2008
From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks)
Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 05:04:05 -0000
Subject: Sweeney Todd?  Bloody Hell!
In-Reply-To: <394937.82597.qm@web60720.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <fnef05+kbr6@eGroups.com>

> Tonks:
> Oh, my... I have never seen any of the ones that you mentioned. I 
don't like Horror movies. But the way you talk about it .. hum... makes 
me wonder... do you say 'Lord Voldemort', 'He Who Must Not Be Names', 
or 'The Dark Lord'?? ;-)
> 

Danielle:
> hehehehe I like Lord Thingy or Moldie Voldie myself
> lmao
> 

Tonks:
Well with that much disrespect for him, you are not a Death Eater. But 
the question is... is she???

Tonks_op




From tonks_op at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 26 05:08:16 2008
From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks)
Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 05:08:16 -0000
Subject: Education in the U.S.
Message-ID: <fnef80+jt3j@eGroups.com>

Just watched Jay Leno do a street interview with a number of teenagers 
who were in high school. He asked them the simplest questions such as 
how many Great Lakes are there, where is the Berlin wall, where is 
Iraq, and you should have heard the answers they gave. What is 
happening to the education in our country!!! 

Tonks_op




From tfaucette6387 at charter.net  Sat Jan 26 09:59:34 2008
From: tfaucette6387 at charter.net (anne_t_squires)
Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 09:59:34 -0000
Subject: Education in the U.S.
In-Reply-To: <fnef80+jt3j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fnf0a6+93j9@eGroups.com>

 "Tonks_op" wrote:
>
> Just watched Jay Leno do a street interview with a number of teenagers 
> who were in high school. He asked them the simplest questions such as 
> how many Great Lakes are there, where is the Berlin wall, where is 
> Iraq, and you should have heard the answers they gave. What is 
> happening to the education in our country!!! 
> 
> Tonks_op



Anne Squires:

You do realize that those "Jay Walking" segments do not represent the
American public as a whole, right?  Jay is trying to get laughs;
therefore, he purposely goes out looking for stupid people who are
going to give stupid answers.  He has an agenda and it is not to show
a random sample of the US population and what they know.  It wouldn't
be funny to most people unless "the contestants" didn't know the
answers and furthermore, didn't realize just how basic the information
is.  The very fact that these segments are funny to a majority of his
viewers indicates that the majority of his viewers not only know the
answers, but they also know how easy these questi0ons are. It is for
this reason that he does not go to UCLA, Stanford, or Berkley to
interview these people.  Also, you do realize that these segments are
heavily edited.  How many people got the answers right and were edited
out?  I bet a lot.  It wouldn't be funny to see a bunch a people
correctly answering these questions; therefore, he doesn't show those
people.

I suggest that you watch the next few episodes of "Cash Cab."  You may
not have ever seen that; it comes on a cable channel.  I can't
remember which at the moment.  Anyway, people in New York City hail a
cab, get in, and it turns out that they are on a game show.  The
"cabbie," who is really the show's host, asks the cab riders
increasingly more difficult questions as they make their way to their
destination.  I am always rather impressed by how much these people
know.  It's very entertaining.

In the state where I live students have to pass a Graduation Test in
order to graduate from high school.  Believe me when I say that if
they don't the answers to those questions they will never receive a
diploma.
>





From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Sat Jan 26 15:49:17 2008
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 15:49:17 -0000
Subject: Sweeney Todd?  Bloody Hell!
In-Reply-To: <fnef05+kbr6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fnfkpt+k4mu@eGroups.com>

> Tonks:
> Well with that much disrespect for him, you are not a Death Eater. 
But 
> the question is... is she???

Magpie:
A Death Eater? Nah--if you're going to eat somebody the fresher the 
better. Zombies look decidedly not tasty.

-m (hoping Tonks knows that Sweeney Todd's victims all get eaten too!)





From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 26 20:22:05 2008
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 20:22:05 -0000
Subject: Education in the U.S.
In-Reply-To: <fnf0a6+93j9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fng4pd+95s6@eGroups.com>

---  "anne_t_squires" <tfaucette6387 at ...> wrote:
>
>  "Tonks_op" wrote:
> >
> > Just watched Jay Leno do a street interview with a number 
> > of teenagers  who were in high school. He asked them the 
> > simplest questions such as how many Great Lakes are there,
> > ... What is > happening to the education in our country!!! 
> > 
> > Tonks_op
> 
> 
> 
> Anne Squires:
> 
> You do realize that those "Jay Walking" segments do not 
> represent the American public as a whole, right?  Jay is 
> trying to get laughs; therefore, he purposely goes out 
> looking for stupid people who are going to give stupid 
> answers.  ...


bboyminn:

Yes that is true, Jay is trying to be funny, but...frequently
the people he is interviewing are in college and studying
to be teachers, or are teachers. It really is appalling how
ignorant these people are. Even if they don't represent a 
fair statistically neutral cross sampling of the population,
it is still unconcionable that people in college can't answer
the simplest questions. 

I will note with pride that the only time I've seen people
(tourists) from Minnesota interviewed, they knew all the
answers. 

At to standardized tests, I suspect too many of them are 
multiple guess in the form of -

Name one of the Great Lakes?
A.) The Mississippi River
B.) The Erie Canal
C.) The Pacific Ocean
D.) Lake Superior

Gee...guess which one it is?

When you actually have to know the answer, as in -

Name one of the Great Lakes? _____________________

Or better yet,- 

Name one of the Great Lakes, give it's geographic location, and
explain it geological significance? 

then you might be on to something. 

So, I'm not considering Jay-Walking answers in a vacuum. I'm
looking at the education and apparent intelligence of the 
individuals relative to how painfully ignorant they are...
and they are!

Steve/bboyminn




From heidi8 at gmail.com  Sat Jan 26 23:03:53 2008
From: heidi8 at gmail.com (Heidi Tandy)
Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 18:03:53 -0500
Subject: Schoolhouse Rock parody, Harry Potter style
Message-ID: <5913e6f80801261503j5df37f9eg7d60427e8441d915@mail.gmail.com>

I've been working on a series of Schoolhouse Rock parodies set to
various Schoolhouse Rock songs, and I've posted the first one today.
It's a parody of VERB and you can find it on YouTube at
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9uBqO_oZGc - I've shown it to a few
people so far, including some friends (and my husband) who are
five-plus years older than me (I'm 37) and a few people who are
younger than 30, and they aren't as familiar with every single note of
Schoolhouse Rock as those of us in the US who are currently in our 30s
tend to be, so I'm hoping to get comments on the vid from people who
know Schoolhouse Rock enough that they can't recite the preamble to
the Constitution without stretching out "tranquilitee-eee-eee-eee",
and those who don't know the difference between Interplanet Janet and
the Conjunction Junction Conductor.

So, let me know your thoughts?

- heidi

(again, the vid is at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9uBqO_oZGc )



From tfaucette6387 at charter.net  Sat Jan 26 23:55:39 2008
From: tfaucette6387 at charter.net (anne_t_squires)
Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 23:55:39 -0000
Subject: Schoolhouse Rock parody, Harry Potter style
In-Reply-To: <5913e6f80801261503j5df37f9eg7d60427e8441d915@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <fngh9r+iuln@eGroups.com>

 "Heidi Tandy" <heidi8 at ...> wrote:
>
> I've been working on a series of Schoolhouse Rock parodies set to
> various Schoolhouse Rock songs, and I've posted the first one today.
> It's a parody of VERB and you can find it on YouTube at
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9uBqO_oZGc - I've shown it to a few
> people so far, including some friends (and my husband) who are
> five-plus years older than me (I'm 37) and a few people who are
> younger than 30, and they aren't as familiar with every single note of
> Schoolhouse Rock as those of us in the US who are currently in our 30s
> tend to be, so I'm hoping to get comments on the vid from people who
> know Schoolhouse Rock enough that they can't recite the preamble to
> the Constitution without stretching out "tranquilitee-eee-eee-eee",
> and those who don't know the difference between Interplanet Janet and
> the Conjunction Junction Conductor.
> 
> So, let me know your thoughts?
> 
> - heidi
> 
> (again, the vid is at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9uBqO_oZGc )
>
Anne Squires:

OMG, boy do I remember "MY Hero Zero," "Lolly Lolly Lolly," "I'm Just
a Bill," and my all time favorite, "Elbow Room."  Your post really
took me back.  I just watched your video.  It's absolutely wonderful.
 You have chosen perfect images for the lyrics.  I loved it.  :)

Anne




From doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com  Sun Jan 27 04:22:13 2008
From: doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com (doddiemoemoe)
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 04:22:13 -0000
Subject: Well I did warn my kids...
Message-ID: <fnh0tl+6il5@eGroups.com>



None of them believed that said(Sweeney Todd) was a true story...(a 
symptom of the vulnerability of today's youth)...Hostel (they think) 
is  true...yet Sweeney couldn't possibly be..

Just kinda puts me off the entire movie...given that it was a musical 
telling a true story..

Granted I prefer Sweeney rather than Moulin rouge.. 

but I don't want another musical....but rather,  the true 
story...which was just horrific..and folks may have been whistling at 
the time, but they never sang about what transpired..

Sweeney Todd...way better than Saw..and a true story to boot...

dd




From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Sun Jan 27 05:01:51 2008
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 05:01:51 -0000
Subject: Well I did warn my kids...
In-Reply-To: <fnh0tl+6il5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fnh37v+2bs7@eGroups.com>

Doddiemouse
> None of them believed that said(Sweeney Todd) was a true story...(a 
> symptom of the vulnerability of today's youth)...Hostel (they think) 
> is  true...yet Sweeney couldn't possibly be..
> 
> Just kinda puts me off the entire movie...given that it was a musical 
> telling a true story..

Magpie:
Well, it's not really *true* exactly. The murderer Sweeney Todd and 
Mrs. Lovett--that's true. I think they found a lot of bones in the 
tunnel between their two establishments...But the story of the musical 
with the wife and the daughter and the judge etc., that was based on a 
play that was based loosely on the real story. And the story in the 
musical is great!:-)

-m




From tonks_op at yahoo.com  Sun Jan 27 06:46:38 2008
From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks)
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 06:46:38 -0000
Subject: Sweeney Todd?  Bloody Hell!
In-Reply-To: <fnfkpt+k4mu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fnh9ce+ehnb@eGroups.com>

> 
> Magpie:
> A Death Eater? Nah--if you're going to eat somebody the fresher the 
> better. Zombies look decidedly not tasty.
> 
> -m (hoping Tonks knows that Sweeney Todd's victims all get eaten too!)

Tonks:
lol. That was what I was afraid of. Your post makes it seem that you 
enjoy the 'real' gore a wee bit too much. ;-)

Tonks_op
Who knows the story, and has found someone to see it with me on 
Tuesday. 

Also saw the movie 'Michael Clayton' tonight and it was great!





From pam_rosen at yahoo.com  Sun Jan 27 05:04:34 2008
From: pam_rosen at yahoo.com (Pamela Rosen)
Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 21:04:34 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Well I did warn my kids...
Message-ID: <944723.20440.qm@web30806.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Doddiemoemoe:

None of them believed that said (Sweeney Todd) was a true story...

Pam:

Sweeney Todd is not based on a true story. It's based on a 19th 
century "penny dreadful" novel.  That's not to say that there has 
never been a murderous barber, but the actual source material for 
"Sweeney Todd" is fictional.



From gav_fiji at yahoo.com  Sun Jan 27 10:14:53 2008
From: gav_fiji at yahoo.com (Goddlefrood)
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 10:14:53 -0000
Subject: Well I did warn my kids...
In-Reply-To: <944723.20440.qm@web30806.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <fnhlit+cbrn@eGroups.com>

> Pam:
> 
> Sweeney Todd is not based on a true story. It's based on a 19th 
> century "penny dreadful" novel.  

Goddlefrood:

He most certainly was real. This would tell you a little about him:

http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/weird/todd/index_1.html

Hung 1802. The only questionable part is whether he operated out 
of Fleet Street or elsewhere. The murders for pies are true. Truth 
is often stranger than fiction ...




From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Sun Jan 27 16:04:37 2008
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 16:04:37 -0000
Subject: Sweeney Todd?  Bloody Hell!
In-Reply-To: <fnh9ce+ehnb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fnia2l+607l@eGroups.com>

> > 
> > Magpie:
> > A Death Eater? Nah--if you're going to eat somebody the fresher the 
> > better. Zombies look decidedly not tasty.
> > 
> > -m (hoping Tonks knows that Sweeney Todd's victims all get eaten 
too!)
> 
> Tonks:
> lol. That was what I was afraid of. Your post makes it seem that you 
> enjoy the 'real' gore a wee bit too much. ;-)

Magpie:
Heh. That's what I thought. Actually I'm not a big fan of gore, but I 
love horror movies so I've developed a high tolerance for it. Since 
it's often so fake it's not like (for me) watching real physical stuff--
which I'm a total wimp about. The gore in the Hostel movies, for 
instance, was fine but when I used to have to write this barely even 
detailed thing for the magazine where I work that dealt with hospitals, 
I was known to become faint.

-m




From HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com  Sun Jan 27 16:43:11 2008
From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com (HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 27 Jan 2008 16:43:11 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 1/27/2008, 11:00 am 
Message-ID: <1201452191.17.63804.m46@yahoogroups.com>

Reminder from: HPFGU-OTChatter Yahoo! Group
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/cal

Weekly Chat
Sunday January 27, 2008
11:00 am - 12:00 pm
(This event repeats every week.)
Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Notes:
Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour.

To get to the HPfGU room follow this link:
http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want
to be called.

Enter the password: hpfguchat

Click "Join Chat" on the lower right.

Chat start times:
11 am Pacific US
12 noon Mountain US
1 pm Central US
2 pm Eastern US
7 pm UK



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From HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com  Sun Jan 27 18:41:48 2008
From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com (HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 27 Jan 2008 18:41:48 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 1/27/2008, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1201459308.14.89931.m44@yahoogroups.com>

Reminder from: HPFGU-OTChatter Yahoo! Group
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/cal

Weekly Chat
Sunday January 27, 2008
1:00 pm - 1:00 pm
(This event repeats every week.)
Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Notes:
Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour.

To get to the HPfGU room follow this link:
http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want
to be called.

Enter the password: hpfguchat

Click "Join Chat" on the lower right.

Chat start times:
11 am Pacific US
12 noon Mountain US
1 pm Central US
2 pm Eastern US
7 pm UK




All Rights Reserved
 Copyright  2008 
 Yahoo! Inc.
 http://www.yahoo.com

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Terms of Service:
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From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Jan 27 20:45:04 2008
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 20:45:04 -0000
Subject: Was: Golden Compass and is, Eowyn, Narnia, etc.
In-Reply-To: <fn6jri+s4sj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fniqgg+bdsf@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "susanmcgee48176"
<Schlobin at ...> wrote:

> I'm not an expert on Tolkien's original sources.....the Kalevala and 
> other Icelandic myths...

The Kalevala is Finnish. Delete the word 'other' from 'other Icelandic
myths' and I would have nothing worth nitpicking ... change 'myths' to
'literature' (some sagas were historical and totally realistic
according to the notions of the authors and listeners) is not worth a
post.




From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Jan 27 20:46:39 2008
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 20:46:39 -0000
Subject: Well I did warn my kids...
In-Reply-To: <fnhlit+cbrn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fniqjf+dt9m@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Goddlefrood" <gav_fiji at ...>
wrote:
>
> > Pam:
> > Sweeney Todd is not based on a true story. It's based on a 19th 
> > century "penny dreadful" novel.  
> 
> Goddlefrood:
> He most certainly was real. This would tell you a little about him:
> http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/weird/todd/index_1.html
> 
> Hung 1802. The only questionable part is whether he operated out 
> of Fleet Street or elsewhere. The murders for pies are true. Truth 
> is often stranger than fiction ...
>
Catlady:
Wikipedia says he was fiction:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweeney_Todd>:
"According to the English tale, Todd was tried at the Old Bailey and
hanged at Tyburn in January 1802, in front of a large crowd. However,
no record of the trial can be found in the Old Bailey sessions papers
or the Newgate Calendar, nor are there any contemporary press reports
either of the trial or of the hanging. Also, Tyburn was no longer used
for hangings after the end of the 18th century. As early as 1878, a
contributor to Notes and Queries noted this absence of authentic
non-fictional sources. It has also been rumoured that Todd fled to
Forres, Scotland where he died and was buried in the local cemetery.[8]"

"Sweeney Todd may not be a wholly fictional character. In two
books,[1][2] the horror and killing story writer Peter Haining argues
that Sweeney Todd was a historical figure who committed his crimes
around 1800. Nevertheless, other researchers who have tried to verify
his citations find nothing in these sources to back Haining's
claims.[3][4][5]"

Haining is the source cited in the first two chapters (all I read) of
your crimelibrary source.

"Todd's first appearance could have been in a British penny dreadful
called The People's Periodical, in issue 7, dated November 21, 1846.
The story in which he appeared was titled "The String of Pearls: A
Romance," and was written by Thomas Peckett Prest,[6] who created
several other gruesome villains. He tended to base his horror stories
partly on truth, sometimes gaining inspiration from real crime reports
in The Times."

Added to Wikipedia's article since I last read it last month: "There
is, however, a similar story reputed to have occurred on the Rue de la
Harpe in Paris that likely influenced the stories of Todd."

"There is also an earlier story, about an unnamed perruquier
(hairdresser) assisted by a patissier (baker) in Paris that appeared
in an edition of The Terrific Register, published in London in 1825
[7]. It tells how two gentlemen stopped for a shave while on an
important errand, and the first man, when done, went ahead with the
errand while his friend remained behind. When he returned for his
friend, he was told by the hairdresser that he had gone, but curiously
left his pet dog waiting behind. This led, eventually, to the dog
revealing that the man's corpse was hidden in the hairdresser's
basement, which adjoined to that of the baker's; it was also indicated
that this was not the first such crime the two had committed, for the
baker routinely had been making pies from corpses. The story concludes
with the claim that a monument was built over the site of the murders."








From gav_fiji at yahoo.com  Sun Jan 27 21:59:46 2008
From: gav_fiji at yahoo.com (Goddlefrood)
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 21:59:46 -0000
Subject: Well I did warn my kids...
In-Reply-To: <fniqjf+dt9m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fniusi+7rho@eGroups.com>

> Catlady:
> Wikipedia says he was fiction:
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweeney_Todd>:

Goddlefrood:
Next you'll be trying to tell me that the War of Independence 
never happened...





From miamibarb at comcast.net  Sun Jan 27 22:30:39 2008
From: miamibarb at comcast.net (Barbara)
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 22:30:39 -0000
Subject: Education in the U.S.
In-Reply-To: <fng4pd+95s6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fnj0mf+12cb@eGroups.com>

> >  "Tonks_op" wrote:
> > >
> > > Just watched Jay Leno do a street interview with a number 
> > > of teenagers  who were in high school. He asked them the 
> > > simplest questions such as how many Great Lakes are there,
> > > ... What is > happening to the education in our country!!! 

> > 
> > Anne Squires:
> > 
> > ...  Jay is 
> > trying to get laughs; therefore, he purposely goes out 
> > looking for stupid people who are going to give stupid 
> > answers.  ...
> 
"Ivogun":
It may not have been too difficult to find the right ("stupid")
people. A few years ago, there was a professor from a local University
(not Stanford, but a respected school) who did a study about how
little students knew about geography. It was quite a scandal that
ultimately led to this professor being denied tenure.

Barbara Roberts




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Sun Jan 27 23:17:01 2008
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 23:17:01 -0000
Subject: Well I did warn my kids...
In-Reply-To: <fniusi+7rho@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fnj3dd+28dr@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Goddlefrood" <gav_fiji at ...> wrote:
>
> > Catlady:
> > Wikipedia says he was fiction:
> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweeney_Todd>:
> 
> Goddlefrood:
> Next you'll be trying to tell me that the War of Independence 
> never happened...

Geoff:
I am sometimes wary of what Wikipedia has to say bearing in 
mind its sources,

There is more light shed on this matter - not to finally confirm or 
repudiate the stories about ST but enough to foster a little 
contemplation at:

www.grooming-health.com/sweeney-todd.htm

- where there are three articles which may be of interest.





From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Mon Jan 28 00:12:22 2008
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 00:12:22 -0000
Subject: Education in the U.S.
In-Reply-To: <fnj0mf+12cb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fnj6l6+7rf6@eGroups.com>

> "Ivogun":
> It may not have been too difficult to find the right ("stupid")
> people. A few years ago, there was a professor from a local 
University
> (not Stanford, but a respected school) who did a study about how
> little students knew about geography. It was quite a scandal that
> ultimately led to this professor being denied tenure.
> 
> Barbara Roberts
>


Alla:

Few days ago a friend complained to me that his office manager, who 
supposed to have high school education shared a surprise bit of 
knowledge that he learned recently.

You want to know what this bit of knowledge is? Oh, he was shocked 
to learn that Rome is located in Italy and not in Greece. No it is 
not a joke. He said he thought for years that Rome is a greek city.

Stories like this make me feel sad about state of our education 
indeed.

No, I cannot claim that I hear stories like this every day, 
otherwise I would be much sadder, LOL, but I do hear them from time 
to time.

Alla




From coriolan at worldnet.att.net  Mon Jan 28 02:47:42 2008
From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius)
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 02:47:42 -0000
Subject: Sweeney Todd?  Bloody Hell!
In-Reply-To: <612962.26032.qm@web53011.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <fnjfoe+jaho@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Alex Hogan <predigirl1 at ...> 
wrote:
>
> It's not THAT icky! The blood is VERY red, as is not realistic. My 8 
year old daughter can handle it.

I'm as much a Sondheim purist as I am an HP purist, so I'm very 
reluctant to see ST on screen, though I've generally enjoyed Tim 
Burton's movies - are there any Sondheim fans on HP-OT who would care 
to comment on this film?

   - CMC






From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Mon Jan 28 02:52:13 2008
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 02:52:13 -0000
Subject: Sweeney Todd?  Bloody Hell!
In-Reply-To: <fnjfoe+jaho@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fnjg0t+1hns@eGroups.com>

CMC
> > It's not THAT icky! The blood is VERY red, as is not realistic. My 
8 
> year old daughter can handle it.
> 
> I'm as much a Sondheim purist as I am an HP purist, so I'm very 
> reluctant to see ST on screen, though I've generally enjoyed Tim 
> Burton's movies - are there any Sondheim fans on HP-OT who would care 
> to comment on this film?


Magpie:
I'm a Sondheim fan--not sure what to say about it. SS himself did the 
music for it. It was his choice what songs to cut--and there were a lot 
of them. He said he'd never liked the movies made of his musicals in 
the past, because the only movie musicals he ever liked were ones 
written for movies. Too often, he said, they keep things that work 
onstage but come across differently in movies.

So he chopped out a lot--any song that he felt slowed down the plot and 
wasn't necessary. So he'd cut things and then it would be done in a 
dramatic scene.

The singing isn't as good as your used to in this show--it's often done 
by opera companies. Joanna and Antony have good voices, but JD and HBC 
are more actors than singers (which SS prefers). I loved Toby and Alan 
Rickman is great--so is Sascha Baron Cohen.

-m




From minnesotatiffany at hotmail.com  Mon Jan 28 04:17:57 2008
From: minnesotatiffany at hotmail.com (Tiffany B. Clark)
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 04:17:57 -0000
Subject: Education in the U.S.
In-Reply-To: <fnj0mf+12cb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fnjl1l+p4fn@eGroups.com>

> "Ivogun":
>
> It may not have been too difficult to find the right ("stupid") 
people. A few years ago, there was a professor from a local University
(not Stanford, but a respected school) who did a study about how
little students knew about geography. It was quite a scandal that
ultimately led to this professor being denied tenure.

Barbara Roberts

Tiffany:

Even though I attend a state-sponsored university in pursuit of an MBA, 
the reputation & prestige of the all-academic schools like Harvard, 
Stanford, Vanderbilt, etc. is well-known & the reputation of the 
professor who published it may have gotten their fifteen minutes of 
fame, but took a huge spiral downward with their colleagues as well.  
It's really not too shocking to hear that folks don't know a lot of 
their geography, as I know of a lot of folks who can't even name the 50 
states right without aids. 




From kempermentor at yahoo.com  Mon Jan 28 04:23:28 2008
From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kempermentor)
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 04:23:28 -0000
Subject: Education in the U.S.
In-Reply-To: <fnj6l6+7rf6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fnjlc0+dqn9@eGroups.com>

 
> Alla:
> 
> Few days ago a friend complained to me that his office manager, who 
> supposed to have high school education shared a surprise bit of 
> knowledge that he learned recently.
> 
> You want to know what this bit of knowledge is? Oh, he was shocked 
> to learn that Rome is located in Italy and not in Greece. No it is 
> not a joke. He said he thought for years that Rome is a greek city.

Kemper now:
A decade ago, I was working one-on-one with this average 16 year old
kid.  He asked me what the date was.  I told him it was the last day
in February (on a non-leap year).  With all sincerity, he asked, "The
thirty-second?"

I left the room quickly, so as not to embarrass him with my tears of
laughter.  I know that sounds mean, but if you don't laugh, despair
sets in.

Kemper 




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Mon Jan 28 13:13:50 2008
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 13:13:50 -0000
Subject: Sweeney Todd?  Bloody Hell!
In-Reply-To: <fnjg0t+1hns@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fnkkee+5jm5@eGroups.com>

> 
> Magpie:
 SS himself did the 
> music for it.

.... what songs to cut--and there were a lot 
> of them. 

 
... So he chopped out a lot-

.... So he'd cut things and then it would be done in a 
> dramatic scene.



Potioncat:
OMG, even the review makes me whoozy.

I'm a nurse you know. I can handle the real stuff. It's the pretend 
stuff that gets me. That and whatever happened "before" the person 
got to the hospital.

Took me several moments to work out that SS isn't Severus Snape.

Ok, Tonks---so far you seem the closest to me in gore-tolerance. Let 
me know what you think.

Did I understand from a post up-thread that the judge takes a bit of 
killing? Rickman does put a lot into death scenes. His being cast as 
Snape was one of the reasons I suspected Snape wouldn't survive. I 
afraid that the movie death will be worse than the book death.




From random832 at fastmail.us  Mon Jan 28 13:16:03 2008
From: random832 at fastmail.us (Random832)
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 08:16:03 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Well I did warn my kids...
In-Reply-To: <fniusi+7rho@eGroups.com>
References: <fniusi+7rho@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <479DD593.7070205@fastmail.us>

>> Catlady:
>> Wikipedia says he was fiction:
>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweeney_Todd>:
> 
> Goddlefrood:
> Next you'll be trying to tell me that the War of Independence 
> never happened...

Random832:
There is rather more basis to believe the War of Independence happened, 
than there is to believe that the story of Sweeney Todd is based on that 
of a specific real murderer.



From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Mon Jan 28 14:14:06 2008
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 14:14:06 -0000
Subject: Well I did warn my kids...
In-Reply-To: <479DD593.7070205@fastmail.us>
Message-ID: <fnknve+33jp@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Random832 <random832 at ...> wrote:
>
> >> Catlady:
> >> Wikipedia says he was fiction:
> >> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweeney_Todd>:
> > 
> > Goddlefrood:
> > Next you'll be trying to tell me that the War of Independence 
> > never happened...
> 
> Random832:
> There is rather more basis to believe the War of Independence happened, 
> than there is to believe that the story of Sweeney Todd is based on that 
> of a specific real murderer.

Geoff:
Ah, but you're suggesting that there is *some* evidence.....





From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Mon Jan 28 15:54:24 2008
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 15:54:24 -0000
Subject: Sweeney Todd?  Bloody Hell!
In-Reply-To: <fnkkee+5jm5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fnktrg+cnts@eGroups.com>

> > Magpie:
>  SS himself did the 
> > music for it.
> 
> .... what songs to cut--and there were a lot 
> > of them. 
> 
>  
> ... So he chopped out a lot-
> 
> .... So he'd cut things and then it would be done in a 
> > dramatic scene.
> 
> 
> 
> Potioncat:
> OMG, even the review makes me whoozy.

Magpie:
I could probably list most of the songs cut--I was upset about all 
of them because I like them all, but I didn't miss them in the 
movie, if that makes sense. 

Potioncat:
> 
> I'm a nurse you know. I can handle the real stuff. It's the 
pretend 
> stuff that gets me. That and whatever happened "before" the person 
> got to the hospital.
> 
> Took me several moments to work out that SS isn't Severus Snape.
> 
> Ok, Tonks---so far you seem the closest to me in gore-tolerance. 
Let 
> me know what you think.
> 
> Did I understand from a post up-thread that the judge takes a bit 
of 
> killing? Rickman does put a lot into death scenes. His being cast 
as 
> Snape was one of the reasons I suspected Snape wouldn't survive. I 
> afraid that the movie death will be worse than the book death.

Magpie:
Even worse, yes! He gets killed enough for three or four people in 
ST.

What's great about the story is the first time, when the judge 
doesn't get killed, the audience actually says, "Awww..." Because 
you're so in Sweeney's pov that you can't help but be frustrated 
that he doesn't get what he wants, even if you know he's a psycho.

I would bet Snape's death in the movie won't be too bad. The HP 
films don't seem to gory. They didn't do Arthur's near-death by 
snake fang that makes him bleed profusely.

-m





From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Mon Jan 28 20:34:29 2008
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 20:34:29 -0000
Subject: Snape's death scene WAS Re: Sweeney Todd?  Bloody Hell!
In-Reply-To: <fnktrg+cnts@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fnle8l+qu1a@eGroups.com>

> Magpie:
<SNIP>
> I would bet Snape's death in the movie won't be too bad. The HP 
> films don't seem to gory. They didn't do Arthur's near-death by 
> snake fang that makes him bleed profusely.


Alla:

I would hope not, even I who was extremely happy to learn of Snape's 
demise have no desire to watch Nagini eating her tasty snack.

But how do you think they can make it easy enough on the eye? I mean 
they may opt to not show it at all, but if they decide to show it, how 
do you think they may depict it?




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Mon Jan 28 22:46:45 2008
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 22:46:45 -0000
Subject: Snape's death scene WAS Re: Sweeney Todd?  Bloody Hell!
In-Reply-To: <fnle8l+qu1a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fnlm0l+q88g@eGroups.com>


> Alla:
> 
> I would hope not, even I who was extremely happy to learn of Snape's 
> demise have no desire to watch Nagini eating her tasty snack.
> 
> But how do you think they can make it easy enough on the eye? I mean 
> they may opt to not show it at all, but if they decide to show it, how 
> do you think they may depict it?
>

Pippin:
A common way is to show it as a shadow on the wall. That's the way they
did Fawkes putting out the basilisk's eyes in CoS.

Pippin




From miles at martinbraeutigam.de  Tue Jan 29 01:08:21 2008
From: miles at martinbraeutigam.de (Miles)
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 02:08:21 +0100
Subject: Education in the U.S.
References: <fnjlc0+dqn9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <011501c86213$75101cb0$15b2a8c0@miles>

The general discussion about educational success is not only a discussion in 
the US, I know it from Germany as well, and I'll bet it is the same in the 
UK, France etc.

The problems of the US educational system might be more severe, I can't tell 
it. The general problem seems to be the same in all "developed" countries: 
There is much more knowledge than only decades before, and much more skills 
to learn for the students.

When my parents attended school, nobody learnt anything about genetics. DNA 
was not yet known. I remember three different atom models I learnt about in 
chemistry - my parents maybe learnt that atoms exist, but not more.

When I attended school (I'm 39), using a computer was something for the 
freaks, a very small minority. Today, all students must learn to use a 
computer. We all would think any school who wouldn't teach its students to 
use a computer would be a desaster.

So, anybody would agree that students of today have to learn things we 
didn't learn. If we further agree that they cannot learn much more than we 
did - what is the logical result?

What we call "general knowlege" is more or less a result of what "we all" 
know - what we learnt at school and later in life. It would not even be fair 
to ask that from students who haven't had any "later in life" yet. And it's 
totally unfair to ask that from students who have to learn things at school 
that we never heard of when we were students - and maybe still never learnt 
in our "later life".

I do not want to excuse the examples I read upthread. Well, I do not know 
the 50 states or the lakes, but I'm not a US citizen ;), but to know about 
the days of a year, of basic geographics (not only in one's own country) 
and, last but not least, knowledge of at least the own language is necessary 
for everyone and will be in future. But every time we wonder what a young 
boy or girl does not know, we should think about what s/he knows we never 
heard of at their age.

Miles 




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Tue Jan 29 01:31:37 2008
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 01:31:37 -0000
Subject: Snape's death scene WAS Re: Sweeney Todd?  Bloody Hell!
In-Reply-To: <fnlm0l+q88g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fnlvlp+6me7@eGroups.com>

 
> Pippin:
> A common way is to show it as a shadow on the wall. That's the way 
they
> did Fawkes putting out the basilisk's eyes in CoS.
> 
> Pippin


Potioncat:
Shadow works, and could be very vivid. In the OoP scene with Arthur, I 
think we just saw flashes...of course it was from the snake's pov. 

But there's several parts really. The protective cage encases Snape's 
head; Nagini strikes; Snape drops and tries to staunch the bleeding. 
Then Harry appears and Snape communicates.

Visually, it will all be a death scene--and I think it will be 
horrible. Excellent, but horrible.

Potioncat, channelling Olivander.





From n2fgc at arrl.net  Tue Jan 29 02:16:28 2008
From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Lee Storm(God Is The Healing Force))
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 21:16:28 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Education in the U.S.
In-Reply-To: <011501c86213$75101cb0$15b2a8c0@miles>
Message-ID: <000101c8621c$f53ad8e0$67a4a8c0@FRODO>

[Miles]:
| There is much more knowledge than only decades before, and 
| much more skills 
| to learn for the students.
| 
| When my parents attended school, nobody learnt anything about 
| genetics. DNA 
| was not yet known. I remember three different atom models I 
| learnt about in 
| chemistry - my parents maybe learnt that atoms exist, but not more.

[Lee]:
And maybe that was a good thing.  Perhaps things like genetics and advanced
chemistry should remain in the college / university levels and out of the
high schools.  Students need to learn the basics like reading, writing and
'rithmetic which can be taught using computers, but really need to be taught
well.  It's very scary to me when I see some of the grammar and spelling
that comes out of young people today!

[Miles]:
| When I attended school (I'm 39), using a computer was 
| something for the 
| freaks, a very small minority. Today, all students must learn 
| to use a 
| computer. We all would think any school who wouldn't teach 
| its students to 
| use a computer would be a desaster.

[Lee]:
Well, it's sort of replacing what used to be penmanship classes, I guess.

[Miles]:
| What we call "general knowlege" is more or less a result of 
| what "we all" 
| know - what we learnt at school and later in life. It would 
| not even be fair 
| to ask that from students who haven't had any "later in life" 
| yet. And it's 
| totally unfair to ask that from students who have to learn 
| things at school 
| that we never heard of when we were students - and maybe 
| still never learnt 
| in our "later life".

[Lee]:
And, again, maybe some of those things should remain out of the lower school
system and be required in the college setting, or as extra-curricular
classes.

[Miles]:
| I do not want to excuse the examples I read upthread. Well, I 
| do not know 
| the 50 states or the lakes, but I'm not a US citizen ;), but 
| to know about 
| the days of a year, of basic geographics (not only in one's 
| own country) 
| and, last but not least, knowledge of at least the own 
| language is necessary 
| for everyone and will be in future. But every time we wonder 
| what a young 
| boy or girl does not know, we should think about what s/he 
| knows we never 
| heard of at their age.

[Lee]:
Maybe, but I guess I'm an old-fashioned gal who believes that in the
elementary grades the education of basic geography, knowledge about one's
country (like the fact that there are five finger-lakes and seven great
lakes and fifty states, as well as knowlege of how to write a complete and
coherent sentence is essential to everyday life.  These are very important
basics!  Knowing (as far as the US is concerned) how many presidents have
come and gone, the structure of our government, and the names of the
government officials for their state (at least) are, what I call, essential
educational *Musts*.  Basic knowledge of the sciences is also important, and
knowing how to add, subtract, multiply and divide and how to make change of
a dollar is a definite essential.  Now, I'm no math wiz, not by a long shot.
But when I hand a clerk a $20.00 bill and my purchase is for $9.95, I don't
want to see that clerk struggling to figure out how much change to give
back.

As the student progresses into High School, the information then can and
should be more detailed and specialized.  And then, come college time,
things can get really specialized and detailed bringing in more about
genetics if that's what the student wants to study, etc.

Unfortunately, with all the tests kids have to take now, I have to wonder if
they're really learning or learning to test well.  Perhaps that sounds
cynical, but a test can't always tell where a kid is at.  And,
unfortunately, another trend I sometimes see is how dependent young people
are becoming on computers for some of the basics like adding and
subtracting, etc.  The trend is to hand it over to the computer and not rely
on that wonderful grey-matter computer God gave us as much as some of us
older folks and our parents used to do.

Anyway, not being a teacher or having kids of my own, I probably should keep
my face shut, but it's just that I never cease to be amazed at the lack of
basic grammar, spelling, etc., which I observe around me on a daily basis.
When a co-worker of mine leaves a note saying "I pick up my chek," (instead
of "I picked up my check,") and a technician writes on my invoice, "Costimer
say she got dead betrie," and another co-worker writes, "How should I imput
the leter," I want to scream and have to wonder how these persons could have
possibly graduated from high school!

Well, time to crawl back under my rock. :-)

Peace,

Lee :-)





From mcrudele78 at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 29 07:08:49 2008
From: mcrudele78 at yahoo.com (Mike)
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 07:08:49 -0000
Subject: Education in the U.S.
In-Reply-To: <000101c8621c$f53ad8e0$67a4a8c0@FRODO>
Message-ID: <fnmje1+7364@eGroups.com>

> Miles:
> But every time we wonder what a young boy or girl does not
> know, we should think about what s/he knows we never 
> heard of at their age.

Mike:
This is a very good point. I got a degree in Computer Science (back 
in the Jurassic Period) and use a computer every day, yet I couldn't 
do half the stuff kids these days can do with computer graphics and 
even more complicated stuff.



> [Lee]:
> <snip>
> (like the fact that there are five finger-lakes and seven great
> lakes and fifty states,

Mike:
HA! Seven great lakes? Sorry Lee, there are only five great lakes; 
Superior, Michigan, Huron, Erie, and Ontario. Lake St. Clair is never 
counted as a great lake even by a MIchigander like me who lives not 
that far from it. And is Lake Champlain your seventh? If so, methinks 
your New York state of mind is showing. <wink>


> [Lee]:
> Knowing (as far as the US is concerned) how many presidents have
> come and gone, the structure of our government, and the names of
> the government officials for their state (at least) are, what I
> call, essential educational *Musts*.

Mike:
I'm not sure about state governments, I'd like to think that High 
Schoolers could tell us who their governor is. It would be nice if 
they knew who the President and V.P. were. As far as government 
structure, most of the US House and Senate, as well as almost every 
member of the media don't seem to know that we have a constitutional 
republic. They think it's a democracy, just listen to their speeches. 
It's downright depressing that they can't be bothered to correctly 
name our form of government.


> [Lee]:
> Now, I'm no math wiz, not by a long shot. But when I hand a clerk
> a $20.00 bill and my purchase is for $9.95, I don't want to see 
> that clerk struggling to figure out how much change to give back.

Mike:
Oh, Lee, they don't struggle any more. Haven't you noticed, they 
press a button that has a little picture of what you bought on it and 
the computer/cash register tells them how much change to give back.



> [Lee]:
> Unfortunately, with all the tests kids have to take now, I have to
> wonder if they're really learning or learning to test well.  

Mike:
Just as unfortunately, we have no way of measuring knowledge 
objectively besides testing. And you know, learning to test well 
teaches one deductive reasoning, so that's not all bad either.



> [Lee]:
> Anyway, not being a teacher or having kids of my own, I probably 
> should keep my face shut,

Mike:
Don't you dare. "Aggitate, aggitate, aggitate" as Frederick Douglas 
famously said. If we accept lower standards, they become the norm. A 
commonly heard phrase in the military was, "If the minimum wasn't 
good enough, it wouldn't be the minimum." As a soldier's lament for 
the endless inane procedural tests they made us take, I understood 
the sentiment. Unfortunately, again, that also seems to be the goal 
of too many regular folks these days.


> [Lee]:
> another co-worker writes, "How should I imput the leter,"

Mike:
Heh, this reminds me of my brother. I always tease him that he won't 
waste two "t"s when one will do the job.



> Well, time to crawl back under my rock. :-)
> 
> Peace,
> 
> Lee :-)

Mike:
We'll see what responses we bring. I might have to ask you to budge 
up under that rock. LOL




From n2fgc at arrl.net  Tue Jan 29 09:49:56 2008
From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Lee Storm(God Is The Healing Force))
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 04:49:56 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Education in the U.S.
In-Reply-To: <fnmje1+7364@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000c01c8625c$4e68e670$67a4a8c0@FRODO>

| > [Lee]:
| > <snip>
| > (like the fact that there are five finger-lakes and seven great
| > lakes and fifty states,
| 
| Mike:
| HA! Seven great lakes? Sorry Lee, there are only five great lakes; 
| Superior, Michigan, Huron, Erie, and Ontario. Lake St. Clair is never 
| counted as a great lake even by a MIchigander like me who lives not 
| that far from it. And is Lake Champlain your seventh? If so, methinks 
| your New York state of mind is showing. <wink>

[Lee]:
No, No, No!  My New York State of Mind wants good knishes!  It's the
Sinus-Ouch State Of Head and the thinking of five lakes and seven
continents, the writing of the lakes with the wrong number of them and the
forgetting of the continents.  But, you know, I still remember the wonderful
device a teacher gave me for remembering the names of the lakes..."HOMES."
<Grin>

[Mike]:
| Oh, Lee, they don't struggle any more. Haven't you noticed, they 
| press a button that has a little picture of what you bought on it and 
| the computer/cash register tells them how much change to give back.

[Lee]:
Goes back to what I said about depending on the machine more than learning
how to use the wonderful grey-matter computer we were created with that only
needs some good chocolate to keep it charged.  <Grin...Chomp>

[Lee (Before)]:
| > another co-worker writes, "How should I imput the leter,"
| 
| Mike:
| Heh, this reminds me of my brother. I always tease him that he won't 
| waste two "t"s when one will do the job.

[Lee]:
<LOL>  But it's just so unbelievable that she truly believe she had spelled
the word correctly.

[Lee (Before)]:
| > Well, time to crawl back under my rock. :-)
| > 
| 
| Mike:
| We'll see what responses we bring. I might have to ask you to budge 
| up under that rock. LOL

[Lee]:

Ah...there's room.

Hmm--remember that Twilight Zone..."Room for one more, honey."  <Evil Grin>

Cheers,

Lee :-)

Do not walk behind me,    | Lee Storm
I may not care to lead;   | N2FGC
Do not walk before me,    | n2fgc at arrl.net (or)
I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at optonline.net
Walk beside me, and be my friend.





From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 29 13:00:55 2008
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 13:00:55 -0000
Subject: Education in the U.S.
In-Reply-To: <fnmje1+7364@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fnn827+p1fi@eGroups.com>

> [Lee]:
> Knowing (as far as the US is concerned) how many presidents have
> come and gone, the structure of our government, and the names of
> the government officials for their state (at least) are, what I
> call, essential educational *Musts*.

Mike:
I'm not sure about state governments, I'd like to think that High
Schoolers could tell us who their governor is. It would be nice if
they knew who the President and V.P. were. As far as government
structure, most of the US House and Senate, as well as almost every
member of the media don't seem to know that we have a constitutional
republic. They think it's a democracy, just listen to their speeches.
It's downright depressing that they can't be bothered to correctly
name our form of government.



Alla:

Well, how about three branches of government? Do you think it should 
be amoung the basical knowledge? Oh, and forget highschoolers, how 
about graduate students who are studying to get a degree in human 
services administration?

Yeah, no, they did not. That's my other sad story from another 
friend of mine - first day of class and professor decided to warm 
them up or something. He asked question and there was a long, long 
silence till my friend raised her hand. Sigh.




From chnc1024 at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 29 15:43:31 2008
From: chnc1024 at yahoo.com (Chancie)
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 07:43:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Help/Advice on Scholarship Letter
In-Reply-To: <011501c86213$75101cb0$15b2a8c0@miles>
Message-ID: <975855.19574.qm@web55710.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

I'm a little confused as to what is appropriate to include in a scholarship application letter.  They want us to answer the question "Why should you be considered for a scholarship?  I am concerned with how to balance personal and academic information.  I don't want it to read like resume, but when they discuss candidates I do want them to remember my 3.89 GPA and that I'm on the Dean's List.  I am going to school to be an RN, so I was wondering if it would be too personal to talk about my son's medical problems, or if that could help them understand why I want to be a nurse and that I am committed to accomplishing that goal?  Any advice would be greatly appreciated!
   
  Have a Great Day!
  Chancie
   
   


Have A Great Day!
  
  Chancie

       
---------------------------------
Looking for last minute shopping deals?  Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From ladymela99 at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 29 16:01:30 2008
From: ladymela99 at yahoo.com (Melanie)
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 08:01:30 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Help/Advice on Scholarship Letter
In-Reply-To: <975855.19574.qm@web55710.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <611909.50664.qm@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I'm a little confused as to what is appropriate to include in a scholarship application letter. They want us to answer the question "Why should you be considered for a scholarship? I am concerned with how to balance personal and academic information. I don't want it to read like resume, but when they discuss candidates I do want them to remember my 3.89 GPA and that I'm on the Dean's List. I am going to school to be an RN, so I was wondering if it would be too personal to talk about my son's medical problems, or if that could help them understand why I want to be a nurse and that I am committed to accomplishing that goal? Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

Have a Great Day!
Chancie

I was always told to talk about what is personal to you.  I know that when I start applying to graduate school this fall I'm going to talk about my experiences with congenital heart disease.  I think that talking about your son and how it has impacted your career goals would be an excellent topic.  However, I know that there are school administrators and professors on this list that would probably tell you something different.  LOL
   
  ~Melanie

       
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From kempermentor at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 29 19:24:07 2008
From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kempermentor)
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 19:24:07 -0000
Subject: Help/Advice on Scholarship Letter
In-Reply-To: <975855.19574.qm@web55710.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <fnnugn+nkhh@eGroups.com>

> Chancie:
> I'm a little confused as to what is appropriate to include in a
scholarship application letter.  They want us to answer the question
"Why should you be considered for a scholarship?  I am concerned with
how to balance personal and academic information.  I don't want it to
read like resume, but when they discuss candidates I do want them to
remember my 3.89 GPA and that I'm on the Dean's List.  I am going to
school to be an RN, so I was wondering if it would be too personal to
talk about my son's medical problems, or if that could help them
understand why I want to be a nurse and that I am committed to
accomplishing that goal?  Any advice would be greatly appreciated!


Kemper now:
Schools are interested in your GPA but they are also interested what
you did to get it.  They are interested in how you attained your GPA
while still keeping up with your son's condition.  It shows commitment
and determination to your goals as well as flexibility and time
management skills which I would think is something any school would
value in a student.

FWIW, I work with youth on scholarships (as well as many other steps
towards independence).  

Kemper

 




From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Tue Jan 29 19:25:04 2008
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 19:25:04 -0000
Subject: Help/Advice on Scholarship Letter
In-Reply-To: <975855.19574.qm@web55710.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <fnnuig+bbk6@eGroups.com>

Chancie:
> I'm a little confused as to what is appropriate to include in a 
scholarship application letter.  They want us to answer the 
question "Why should you be considered for a scholarship?  I am 
concerned with how to balance personal and academic information.  I 
don't want it to read like resume, but when they discuss candidates I 
do want them to remember my 3.89 GPA and that I'm on the Dean's List.  
I am going to school to be an RN, so I was wondering if it would be 
too personal to talk about my son's medical problems, or if that could 
help them understand why I want to be a nurse and that I am committed 
to accomplishing that goal?  Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

Magpie:
There are probably teachers on the list whose opinions will be more 
helpful than mine (I'm not a teacher), but it seems like your son's 
medical problems would be a great thing to talk about if you link them 
to your desire to study. You deserve the scholarship because you have 
the skills to succeed and the commitment and passion to see it through 
to help others like your son. It's personal, but totally relevent and 
not self-absorbed imo.

-m 





From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 30 00:02:36 2008
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 00:02:36 -0000
Subject: Education in the U.S.
In-Reply-To: <fnmje1+7364@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fnoeqs+1i0v@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Mike" <mcrudele78 at ...> wrote:

> > [Lee]:

> > Unfortunately, with all the tests kids have to take now, I have to
> > wonder if they're really learning or learning to test well.  
 
> Mike:

> Just as unfortunately, we have no way of measuring knowledge 
> objectively besides testing. And you know, learning to test well 
> teaches one deductive reasoning, so that's not all bad either.
 

 
If you mean tests like SAT or ACT - these are really strange tests,
not based on knowledge at all, only on speed :-). Why they are
supposed to be showing a person's readiness for higher education is
beyond me. 

If someone can't solve a problem in less than a minute, it doesn't
mean that he doesn't know how to solve it, he just does things a bit
slower, that's all. How does it show if he is ready for college or
not? Knowledge is important, not speed.

To pass well the English part of such a test you must know how to
answer questions on a passage without actually reading this passage,
because just to read the said passage carefully takes more time than
you can afford.

I can't understand this obsession with speed. Actually, those
standardized tests are one of the very, very few things that I don't
like here in the US ;-(.


zanooda, who went through hell when her son was taking his SATs ...




From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 30 00:35:42 2008
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 00:35:42 -0000
Subject: Help/Advice on Scholarship Letter
In-Reply-To: <fnnugn+nkhh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fnogou+r6qh@eGroups.com>

---  "kempermentor" <kempermentor at ...> wrote:
>
> > Chancie:
> > I'm a little confused as to what is appropriate to include
> > in a scholarship application letter.  ... Any advice would
> > be greatly appreciated!
> 
> 
> Kemper now:
> Schools are interested in your GPA but they are also 
> interested what you did to get it.  They are interested in 
> how you attained your GPA while still keeping up with your 
> son's condition.  It shows commitment and determination to
> your goals as well as flexibility and time management skills
> which I would think is something any school would value in 
> a student.
> 
> FWIW, I work with youth on scholarships (as well as many 
> other steps towards independence).  
> 
> Kemper
>

bboyminn:

First, I am a person of NO knowledge, authority, or experience
in this area. But, I, none the less, agree with Kemper. Everyone
applying for a scholarship has good grades, extracurriculars,
community service, etc.... That is what make you the same as
everyone else, but it is what makes you distinct and unique
that will capture their attention and imagination. 

You should certainly start with your basic academic outline, 
but, although I'm greatly interpreting very little information,
what makes you unique is that you have stuggled and succeeded
in spite of that struggle. That shows a level of determination
and dedication that tells the committee that you will treat
this scholarship seriously. That you will work hard to be
worthy of it, and they you certainly will not waste it or
the opportunity it provides.

Again, I'm speculating on a lot of aspects of your situation,
but I think the general flow of what I've written above will
carry a lot of weight with the committee. 

In short, it is not what makes you the same as everyone else
that matters in the end, it is was makes you different, and
more important what makes you special and worthy of this
scholarship.

I would be very interested in hearing what Kemper thinks of
this approach, since he/she is experienced in this area.

And with apologies for the 'he/she', I'm sure we cleared
this up long ago, but my failing memory doesn't reach back
that far.

For what it's worth.

Steve/bboyminn




From minnesotatiffany at hotmail.com  Wed Jan 30 02:24:51 2008
From: minnesotatiffany at hotmail.com (Tiffany B. Clark)
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 02:24:51 -0000
Subject: Education in the U.S.
In-Reply-To: <fnmje1+7364@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fnon5j+1dji@eGroups.com>

> Mike:
>
> This is a very good point. I got a degree in Computer Science (back 
> in the Jurassic Period) and use a computer every day, yet I couldn't 
> do half the stuff kids these days can do with computer graphics and 
> even more complicated stuff.

Tiffany:

Don't sweat it too much Mike, when my parents entered the workplace in 
the late 1980s, the BBS servers were the "en vogue" thing in computers 
& now they've gone by the way of 8-track tapes, Milli Vanilli, & New 
Coke.  I'm fairly up on my computer stuff, but even some of the things 
it does at times boggles my mind, esp. when it crashes or needs a 
repair job.




From tonks_op at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 30 03:44:13 2008
From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks)
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 03:44:13 -0000
Subject: Help/Advice on Scholarship Letter
In-Reply-To: <fnogou+r6qh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fnorqd+r2uh@eGroups.com>

> > > Chancie:
> > > I'm a little confused as to what is appropriate to include
> > > in a scholarship application letter.  ... Any advice would
> > > be greatly appreciated!
> > 
> > 
> > Kemper now:
> > Schools are interested in your GPA but they are also 
> > interested what you did to get it.  They are interested in 
> > how you attained your GPA while still keeping up with your 
> > son's condition.  It shows commitment and determination to
> > your goals as well as flexibility and time management skills
> > which I would think is something any school would value in 
> > a student.

Steve:
 Everyone
> applying for a scholarship has good grades, extracurriculars,
> community service, etc.... That is what make you the same as
> everyone else, but it is what makes you distinct and unique
> that will capture their attention and imagination. 
> 
> You should certainly start with your basic academic outline, 
> but, although I'm greatly interpreting very little information,
> what makes you unique is that you have stuggled and succeeded
> in spite of that struggle. That shows a level of determination
> and dedication that tells the committee that you will treat
> this scholarship seriously. That you will work hard to be
> worthy of it, and they you certainly will not waste it or
> the opportunity it provides.

Tonks:
I agree with both Kemper and Steve. I did receive a small 
scholarship as an older female student when I was in college from a 
group that helped returning female students. You need to consider 
the type of orginazation that is giving the scholarship and make a 
sales pitch with your audience in mind. 

Good salesmanship is an appeal to emotion backed up with logic. Use 
both in a balance that appeals to the audience. If the people 
reviewing it are women they might be swayed with a bit more emotion, 
and if mostly men you want to come off a bit less emotional. 
Whatever the group they want to see that you need them to complete 
your education and that you are both gifted and determined.

Good Luck.

Tonks_op




From kempermentor at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 30 06:19:50 2008
From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kempermentor)
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 06:19:50 -0000
Subject: Help/Advice on Scholarship Letter
In-Reply-To: <fnnugn+nkhh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fnp4u6+fv3k@eGroups.com>

 
> Kemper earlier
> Schools are interested in your GPA but they are also interested what
> you did to get it.  They are interested in how you attained your GPA
> while still keeping up with your son's condition.  It shows commitment
> and determination to your goals as well as flexibility and time
> management skills which I would think is something any school would
> value in a student.


Kemper now:
Hi Chancie,
... I realized you were asking for help with a letter and not an
essay.  So here's my addendum:

Treat it like a cover letter for a job:
1. Thank them for opportunity to apply.
2. Discuss why you are applying (here's where you briefly talk about
you and your circumstance).
3. If applicable, explain how the Scholarship Giver's
philosophy/mission/goals compliment your own.
4. Inform what they (whoever's offering the scholarship) will gain by
granting you the scholarship (here's where you briefly show what your
future self will be doing with her life and with her community).
5. Thank them for their time/consideration.

The letter shouldn't be longer than a page.

Kemper





From chnc1024 at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 30 14:09:39 2008
From: chnc1024 at yahoo.com (chnc1024)
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 08:09:39 -0600
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Help/Advice on Scholarship Letter
Message-ID: <mailman.78.1576049097.5361.hpfgu-otchatter@archive.hpfgu.org>

bboyminn:

(SNIP) although I'm greatly interpreting very little information, what makes you unique is that you have stuggled and succeeded in spite of that struggle. That shows a level of determination and dedication that tells the committee that you will treat this scholarship seriously. That you will work hard to be worthy of it, and they you certainly will not waste it or
 the opportunity it provides.

 Again, I'm speculating on a lot of aspects of your situation, but I think the general flow of what I've written above will carry a lot of weight with the committee.

********************************

Chancie:

This is much like what I've written for my first draft. I just was unsure how personal it should be. But from the feedback I've recieved, it should be fine. 
 
Just some info on my son- He begain having seizures in October. At first he was diagnosed with febrile seizures (seizures as a result of a spiking temperature).  He had 3 grand mal (convultions, and the whole deal).  They usually lasted only 3 to 5 minutes, until New Year's.  Just an hour into the new year, and with no warning, he got a fever of 104.9, and lapsed into a seizure that lasted for 2 hours until he was given some seizure medicine in the ER. It managed to stop the seizure, but stoped his breathing temporarily as well. I was hysterical. Luckily the stabalized him, and they began running tests. The next day, he had an mri and eeg. He had some brain swelling on the mri, and epileptic activity on his eeg. They originally said that these things could be from the long seizure, and we hoped this would resolve itself. He stayed in the hospital for a few days and the doctors told us to come back in a few weeks to re evaluate, and they put him on phenobarbital as a precaution.  But according to the follow up eeg last friday, the epileptic activty has continued. The neurologists are still hoping he will out grow it, and they want to re evaluate in another 4 months. 

The first few days after his seizure he was extermely un coordinated- he couldn't walk or even get a sippy cup in his mouth without hiting himself in the head with it a few times first. But he has completely recovered from that and I couldn't be more thankful! It has been an extremely stressful start to the year, but I hope things will continue to improve as time goes on.    

I realize you didn't ask for his entire medical history, but at least now you can have some perspective on where I'm comming from.  He is 15 months old.

I appologize in advance for any spelling, gramatical, or other errors. I'm sending this from my cell phone....

Thanks again for all your imput on the scholarship info!  I really appreciate any information I can get.

Have a Great Day,
Chancie

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From chnc1024 at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 30 14:27:09 2008
From: chnc1024 at yahoo.com (chnc1024)
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 08:27:09 -0600
Subject: Clarification of previous post  RE: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re:
 Help/Advice on Scholarship Letter
Message-ID: <mailman.79.1576049097.5361.hpfgu-otchatter@archive.hpfgu.org>

********************************

 Chancie:

 This is much like what I've written for my first draft. I just was unsure how personal it should be. But from the feedback I've recieved, it should be fine.

 _______________________________


Just wanted to clarify- This is much like what I have written for my fist draft- was in refference to the suggestions that Steve and Kemper made NOT to what I had written!!  I didn't realize how that sounded until I had already sent it!

Have a Great Day,
 Chancie 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From Schlobin at aol.com  Thu Jan 31 08:32:27 2008
From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 08:32:27 -0000
Subject: Education in the U.S.
In-Reply-To: <011501c86213$75101cb0$15b2a8c0@miles>
Message-ID: <fns12r+mg7i@eGroups.com>

> What we call "general knowlege" is more or less a result of 
what "we all" 
> know - what we learnt at school and later in life. It would not 
even be fair 
> to ask that from students who haven't had any "later in life" yet. 
And it's 
> totally unfair to ask that from students who have to learn things 
at school 
> that we never heard of when we were students - and maybe still 
never learnt 
> in our "later life".
> 
> I do not want to excuse the examples I read upthread. Well, I do 
not know 
> the 50 states or the lakes, but I'm not a US citizen ;), but to 
know about 
> the days of a year, of basic geographics (not only in one's own 
country) 
> and, last but not least, knowledge of at least the own language is 
necessary 
> for everyone and will be in future. But every time we wonder what a 
young 
> boy or girl does not know, we should think about what s/he knows we 
never 
> heard of at their age.
> 
> Miles
>

Miles, I really like your approach, and agree with a lot of what 
you've said. 

The only reason that I happen to know the names, locations and 
capitals of all 50 states in the U.S.A. is because my 10 year old is 
learning them, and we are memorizing together. The only reason I know 
all the names of the Great Lakes in the U.S.A. is because I lived in 
Michigan for many years. (Here's an easy way to remember them - 
HOMES... H for Huron...O for Ontario  M for Michigan E for Erie and S 
for Superior).

Please don't ask me the location of cities in Portugal! or to name 
all the provinces (with capitals) in Canada..or to name the 30 plus 
states in Mexico....


Part of the problem IS what is taught in school (or more accurately 
what is NOT taught in school).  ( Digression: When I was in school 
long, long ago in the U.S., we were taught "current events", and 
history. History never quite made it past World War I, and all the 
history I've learned since then was self-taught. In college I took 
Russian history, and history of the U.K. So, I don't know very much 
U.S. History after the Wilson administration and before the Kennedy 
administration. I never heard of the Holocaust in school.) So there 
were problems educationally 40 years ago, as well as tody.

People's lack of knowledge is not new. 
I just read that when the United States went to war in Korea, MANY 
people had no idea where Korea was. I have also read that many of the 
soldiers who went to war in Europe in World War I were illiterate or 
barely literate. The government instituted literacy programs in the 
training camps to address this issue.

I guess my point is: a) kids are not getting the opportunity to learn 
about many of the things we assume that they are being taught or they 
know (they're learning too much from popular culture, television, 
movies, music, etc.) b) there IS a lot more to learn AND what we 
think we KNOW is changing ... (when I was in school, the Big Bang was 
just ONE of the theories about the creation of the universe, now it's 
THE theory.

Susan






From Schlobin at aol.com  Thu Jan 31 08:42:41 2008
From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 08:42:41 -0000
Subject: Education in the U.S.
In-Reply-To: <000101c8621c$f53ad8e0$67a4a8c0@FRODO>
Message-ID: <fns1m1+r5b2@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Lee Storm(God Is The Healing 
Force)" <n2fgc at ...> wrote:
> 
> [Lee]:
> Maybe, but I guess I'm an old-fashioned gal who believes that in the
> elementary grades the education of basic geography, knowledge about 
one's
> country (like the fact that there are five finger-lakes and seven 
great
> lakes and fifty states, as well as knowlege of how to write a 
complete and
> coherent sentence is essential to everyday life.  

Uh oh..you do mean seven finger-lakes (although I hear there are 
really eleven) and five great lakes? Do most people really know about 
the finger lakes? My dad spent summers there as a boy, otherwise I 
don't think I'd know about them.

I do heartily agree with you about the necessity of basic education.
My kids are still being taught penmanship, and are memorizing their 
multiplication tables (that was out of "vogue" for a while, but 
parent's complaints that kids couldn't do simple arithmetic brought 
it back). 

Okay, here's trivia..who knows how to parse a sentence?

Susan




From Schlobin at aol.com  Thu Jan 31 08:47:09 2008
From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 08:47:09 -0000
Subject: Education in the U.S.
In-Reply-To: <fnn827+p1fi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fns1ud+5g17@eGroups.com>

> 
> Alla:
> 
> Well, how about three branches of government? Do you think it should 
> be amoung the basical knowledge? Oh, and forget highschoolers, how 
> about graduate students who are studying to get a degree in human 
> services administration?
> 
> Yeah, no, they did not. That's my other sad story from another 
> friend of mine - first day of class and professor decided to warm 
> them up or something. He asked question and there was a long, long 
> silence till my friend raised her hand. Sigh.
>

Yeah, well, my children had to sit through a long, long dissertation 
about the three branches of government, and how a law gets made, and 
how the U.S. government structure differs from the state structure..the 
poor little kids -- one of them asked why I was complaining about 
a "veto" and what that was....

They haven't learned diddly squat about the U.S. system of government 
by 5th grade -- at least not in California.

Susan


P.S. Humblest apologies to Lee for not reading all the posts through; I 
would have known that the issue of the finger lakes and great lakes had 
been thoroughly hashed over! 




From Schlobin at aol.com  Thu Jan 31 09:18:50 2008
From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 09:18:50 -0000
Subject: Was: Golden Compass and is, Eowyn, Narnia, etc.
In-Reply-To: <fniqgg+bdsf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fns3pq+bp7g@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" 
<catlady at ...> wrote:
>
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "susanmcgee48176"
> <Schlobin@> wrote:
> 
> > I'm not an expert on Tolkien's original sources.....the Kalevala 
and 
> > other Icelandic myths...
>

Catlady said: 
 
> The Kalevala is Finnish. Delete the word 'other' from 'other Icelandic
> myths' and I would have nothing worth nitpicking ... change 'myths' to
> 'literature' (some sagas were historical and totally realistic
> according to the notions of the authors and listeners) is not worth a
> post.
>

Okay, I'm confused....

My apologies for my stupid mistakes...re the Kalevala...I do know it's 
Finnish. ...  I THINK I was trying to say "other Scandinavian" myths 
(although I know some people don't include Finland, Iceland and the 
Faroe Islands in Scandinavia, others do.....particularly the linguistic 
folk.) And calling an epic poem in the oral tradition a myth is not 
very precise.....

re: Icelandic sources.....the Volsunga Saga? (spelling?)....is that 
what you meant when you said historical? I thought it was legend/myth, 
but was it based on earlier history? 

I was posting in a hurry....

Would you give me some clarification about your own post:  what did you 
mean by "is not worth post?"

Thanks, Susan





From n2fgc at arrl.net  Thu Jan 31 13:23:18 2008
From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Lee Storm(God Is The Healing Force))
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 08:23:18 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Education in the U.S.
In-Reply-To: <fns1m1+r5b2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000801c8640c$721ae710$67a4a8c0@FRODO>

[Susan]:
| Okay, here's trivia..who knows how to parse a sentence?

[Lee]:
Sometimes a must if one is going to play editor. <Grin>  We used to have to
do some parsing in our English classes.  It helped me to be able to
understand the long sentences of "legalese," so to speak, being able to take
the sentence apart and reconstruct it in my head into a more--uh--coherent
format.

Smiles,

Lee :-)

Do not walk behind me,    | Lee Storm
I may not care to lead;   | N2FGC
Do not walk before me,    | n2fgc at arrl.net (or)
I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at optonline.net
Walk beside me, and be my friend.





From n2fgc at arrl.net  Thu Jan 31 13:40:39 2008
From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Lee Storm(God Is The Healing Force))
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 08:40:39 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Education in the U.S.
In-Reply-To: <fns1ud+5g17@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000901c8640e$de5dd430$67a4a8c0@FRODO>

[Susan]:
| They haven't learned diddly squat about the U.S. system of government 
| by 5th grade -- at least not in California.

[Lee]:
Oh, that's scary!  I remember when I was in fifth grade and it was during a
presidential election year.  The whole school got into the act, so to speak.
Not only did we watch stuff on TV, but the students lived the whole process.
We had our little primary, some campaigning, a vote for school president
with ballots and everything...it was really marvelous!  If all history was
taught in such a living way, I might have enjoyed it more.

[Susan]:
| P.S. Humblest apologies to Lee for not reading all the posts 
| through; I 
| would have known that the issue of the finger lakes and great 
| lakes had 
| been thoroughly hashed over! 

[Lee]:
Yeah, we swam through all the lakes..hmm--maybe all that water was what
drove my sinuses ballistic.  <Grin>  I'll clue ya, it's really hard to think
straight with little hammers in one's head, but this, too, shall pass. :-)

Peace,

Lee :-)