coercion

[Steve]

---  "susanmcgee48176" <Schlobin at ...> wrote:
>
> ---  "Steve" <bboyminn@> wrote:
> >
> > ---  "susanmcgee48176" <Schlobin@> wrote:
> > >
> > > What I object to about boycotts of stores that require their
> > > employees to say happy holidays rather than Merry Christmas
> > > (in an effort to be more inclusive....is that it's trying to
> > > force people to participate in a religious holiday, (or any
> > > kind of holiday).
> > > 
> > > Those employees who do not celebrate Christmas - they should
> > > be forced to say "merry christmas?" People who do not 
> > > celebrate should be forced to listen to "merry christmas" 
> > > in the stores?
> > > 
> > 
> > bboyminn:
> > 
> > You almost had me, but I think you took it one step too far.
> > True, if you do not celebrate Christmas you should not be 
> > force to extend a Christmas-specific greeting to people. But,
> > the end of the calendar year is a general time of celebration
> > for everyone. So, it is, the entire month of December a
> > holiday season. Do you really think the non-Christians are
> > going to refuse a week off work 'for the holidays' because
> > the claim they don't celebrate the holidays? I don't think so.
> >

> Susan:
> Sorry, but this is a non-sequitur.....
> 

bboyminn:

I'm assuming you are referring to the last part about 'time
off' from work. My point is, you are refusing the season. 
That is, you don't want to go through the Christmas season
confronted with Christmas expressions that acknowledge that
very real and undeniable season, but, and this is
my point, you are denying the annoyances, but are you 
accepting the benefits? 

You shouldn't really be able to have it both ways. You
shouldn't be able to go through a society sanitized of
Christmas, while at the same time reaping the benefits of
the very same holiday.

> 
> > bboyminn:
> > 
> > As to the last part, which I object too, 'people who do 
> > not celebrate should be forced to listen to 'Merry 
> > Christmas' in the store?'. Well, yes, somebody, if fact a
> > majority of people are celebrating Christmas and a 
> > Christmas greeting between then IS appropriate. Why should
> > the entire country be forced to conform to the beliefs of 
> > a few? 

> Susan:
> 
> Because the idea is to honor diversity, to honor minority 
> opinions and beliefs...not to force the majority celebration
> of a Christmas holiday down everyone's throats..
> 
> 

bboyminn:

I'm more than willing to honor diversity by acknowledging
secular and non-secular holidays of diverse minorities.
Happy Cinco De Mayo to you. But accepting minorities
doesn't and shouldn't mean rejecting the vast majority.

> > bboyminn:
> >
> > I mean if I go into a Chinese restaurant on Chinese New Year
> > and they are celebrating, should I make them stop because I
> > don't celebrate Chinese New Year? Should I refuse to pay the
> > 'special' Chinese New Year prices that are part of the
> > celebrations? Should I refuse the free eggroll and special
> > Chinese New Year foods, not because I don't like them, but
> > because I refuse to celebrate the holiday? I don't think so. 
> > 

> Susan:
> 
> Steve, sorry, but I just don't get this. I have no objection
> to anyone celebrating Christmas, giving discounts on Christmas,
> selling Christmas foods, whatever...
> 

bboyminn:

But you implied that you objected to seeing and hearing
references to Christmas when you yourself don't celebrate it.
How can you be insulated from Christmas in any practical
way unless others stop celebrating it?

> >bboyminn:
> >
> > It is one thing for you to choose to not celebrate certain
> > holidays, but you really don't have a right to force other
> > people to stop, and you don't have a right to be immune
> > or sheltered from knowing a celebrations in going on. That
> > celebration is a vast vast majority of people exercising 
> > their rights as member of a free and opened country.
> >

> Susan:
> 
> But I'm not forcing people to stop. Celebrate away.......
> What I have been saying is that *I* would not wish someone
> a religious specific greeting unless I knew that they were 
> of that religion. 

bboyminn:

But what are the odds? In a country that is vastly Christian,
the odds, especially where I live, are very thin that someone
would not be Christian or a least understand the season. 

The odds of saying Merry Christian are astronomically in favor
of the person being a Christian or at least someone celebrating
a secular Christmas. Still, it would be ridiculous to wish
Merry Christmas to someone who clearly was not a Christian. 

I'm not saying that everyone must say and accept a greeting of
Merry Christmas, I'm all for mixing it up, if nothing else
just to break the monotony. Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays,
Season Greetings, Blessings of the Season, and whatever else 
you can think of.

The only objections to Merry Christmas that I would have is
that it gets so overused as to lose all meaning. Once you've
been wished Merry Christmas for the thousandth time in one 
day, it just turns in to so much 'blah blah blah'. 


> Susan:
>
> I think it's common courtesy, and I also think it's part of 
> acknowledging that minorities have rights ..that here in the
> U.S., the ideal is supposed to be that minorities have 
> rights...AND that there is separation of church and state. 
> NOT eradication of celebrations..
> 

bboyminn:

There is a difference between separation of Church and State,
and a separation of Church and Walmart. I'm all for the
encompassing and embracing of all minority cultures and the
celebrations that go with them. What I am against, is the
idea that the majority should cease to exist in order to
accommodate the minority. The minority DOES HAVE right, it
has the /same/ rights as the majority.

> > bboyminn:
>  
> > As a minority, you are free not to celebrate, but you are
> > not free to stop others from doing so. ...
> > 

> Susan:
> 
> Steve, how can you POSSIBLY be wishing me well, when you are
> forcing me to acknowledge your religion and culture as 
> dominant?

bboyminn:

Well, like it or not, MY Culture is dominant. Again, I'm all
for embracing the culture of others, I think it expands us
as a community and as a people. But I'm not going to stop
being who I am and doing what I do to please some minority.

This should be an additive process, not a subtractive one.


> Susan:
>
> Please listen to yourself -- what if I said "Sorry, Steve, 
> but you are going to have to listen to MY religious views 
> and MY religious greetings whether you like it or not!"
> 
> 

bboyminn:

I'd say, pull up a chair, have a cup of coffee and a slice
of pie and let's talk. 

I'm very interested in the culture and religion of other
people, I would welcome the discussion, I would embrace the
celebration. 

To the basic point, I certainly would not wish the local
and clearly Jewish community a Merry Christmas because I
understand that they don't believe in the Christ the same
way I do. If I saw someone that looked like they might be
Muslim or Hindi or Buddhist, I would likely change my
greeting accordingly. Or I might just wish them Merry
Christmas under the understanding that it is /I/ who am
celebrating a season. Really, I would try to be sensitive.

But again, I don't think I should be forbidden to offer a 
Merry Christmas to people, within reasonable bounds of
sensitivity. At the same time, I don't think I should be
forced, say by an employer to only offer either Merry
Christmas.

I say to each his own, all comers accepted. 

If someone expressed or appeared uncomfortable by my 
greeting, I would apologies and try to alter it to alternate
that I thought was more appropriate. I'm not completely 
insensitive you know.

That's about all I can say. 

Steve/bboyminn