Eowyn: was Golden Compass

[kempermentor]

> > Kemper now:
> > Why did she go to the battle at Minas Terith (sp?)
> > I think it was because she was love stricken but Aragon was, like,
> > "you don't really do it for me, you just like me cause I'm hot" and
> > Eowyn was, like, "I'm going to dress up like a man a die in battle and
> > show you!"
> > I, of course, could be totally wrong in my interpretation.  But I did
> > not get the feeling she wanted to battle for Rohan.
> > 
> > Again, my interpretation.  And I know it's skewed by what an
> > unbearable read I felt it was.

> Susan replied:
> So here's the canon.
> 
> Faramir says
> "That I know", he said "You desired to have the love of the Lord 
> Aragorn. Because he was high and puissant and you wished to have renown 
> and glory and to be lifted far above the mean things that crawl on 
> the earth. ... 
> But when he gave you only understanding and pity, then you desired 
> to have nothing, unless a brave death in battle..."
> 
> Remember that Eowyn was forced to see her uncle dominated by 
> Wormtongue who tormented her. 
> 
> Like many men rejected by women, they think that perhaps a brave death 
> is all that is left to them.
> 
> I think I'm having a problem with people assuming that the only 
> reason a woman would become a warrior is related to a man.

Kemper now:
Then, based on your quoted canon, you must have a problem with Farmir.
Or with JRRT, as it's his writings that suggest it.
This person isn't assuming, he's inferring based on what JRRT is implying.

I'd rather Eowyn go into battle for Rohan instead of for self-pity. 
That would have challenged gender roles a  bit more.  Though...
killing the Wictch King was cool.  Ok, as I type this, maybe Eowyn's
character developed (the only one, 'cept Gollum to do so imo).  She
stood against Witch King as protector of her uncle whatshisname. 
Woman as protector for a non-child breaks a gender role.
But she definitely went into battle because of a man.


> Ann:
> More canon: in "The Houses of Healing" Gandalf notes explicitly that 
> Wormtongue has been dominating Eowyn as well as Theoden:
> 
> > Think you that Wormtongue had poison only for Theoden's            
> > ears? "Dotard! What is the house of Eorl but a thatched barn where 
> > brigands drink in the reek, and their brats roll on the floor among 
> > their dogs?" Have you not heard those words before? Saruman         
> > spoke them, the teacher of Wormtongue.
> 
> (I'm fairly sure he's quoting something Eowyn said earlier, but I 
> can't find the exact reference.) And "The Steward and the King" makes 
> it clear that she's suffering from something similar to modern 
> clinical depression.

Kemper now:
I would need more canon to address the clinical depression.  As I'm
not into LotR, I'm disinclined to seek it myself.
But even if so, doesn't it make woman, as Eowyn, weak due to emotional
problem (abuse of Wormtongue/rejection of Aragon).
Does JRRT show Man (not a Hobbit, Dwarf, Elf) as possibly clinically
depressed?  I don't know.


> Ann:
> Other strong female characters in good fantasy:
> ...snip list...
> 
> That's just off the top of my head; anyone got any more?
> 
> *"Strong" doesn't necessarily mean "admirable"


Kemper now:
I wasn't suggesting strong meaning admirable.
I think Mrs Colter in Golden Compass is a strong evil woman.
Lewis' White Witch as well... though, in context with him as male
writer and male characters fighting her, it's has sexist overtones.
Athena
Artemis
Grendel's Mom.
Morgan Le Fey (again, at least in legend it seems Masculine v Feminine)
Speaking of...I'm sure Marion Zimmer Bradley has some as well, but
haven't read any.

Kemper