Wearing her roses pink Was: Historical "safe rooms"

[Carol]

Carol:
> > No, they're not sure, but who else's could it be? I don't think
there were any other mysterious disappearances in the Lovell family
(or whoever inherited Minster Lovell after Francis was attainted. 
> 
> Potioncat:
> But there's a lot of time between the 1400s and 1708. This is one
for historical CSI.

Carol:
You're right. All sorts of obscure crimes from thirty years ago get
investigated, but people forget or don't realize that there are
mysteries from earlier centuries. I wonder if anyone has ever done a
biography of Francis? I think somebody did one of John, Earl of
Lincoln (Richard's nephew and heir who for some reason fought in
support of the imposter, Lambert Simnel--as did Francis--even though
John was Richard's rightful heir and Lambert was a kitchen boy). Even
Henry VII lamented that John had died because he desperately wanted to
question him (before giving him an execution befitting his noble rank,
given all the other executions of Yorkist heirs.
> > 
Carol earlier:
> > Just out of curiosity, which unsavory characters wore their roses
pink? If you're thinking of the Tudors, they wore their roses
"damask'd white and red," to borrow Shakespeare's description of an
actual rose, although Elizabeth of York is depicted holding a white rose.
> 
> Potioncat:
> No, I mean, I used to rally behind the red rose, and now I'm taken
by the Yorkist white, so that makes my rose pink. Because I'm not
fully decided.

Carol:
That's very nice. I hope it stays that way. I don't have any
Lancastrian sympathies, but I do feel sorry for poor, simple Henry VI,
who would much rather have been a monk than a king ("Royalty is only
care.")

Potioncat: 
> The unsavory lot I was talking about, would include Warwick and
Clarence and others who switched their support every time the wind 
changed. I don't know that any of them had flowers. 

Carol: I wouldn't say that Warwick switched his support every time the
wind changed. He changed allegiance only once, after a lifetime of
being a Yorkist, after Edward IV made a fool of his marriage
negotiations with Bona of Savoy by secretly marrying Elizabeth
Woodville. (Imagine if he'd known about Eleanor Butler!) There was
more to it, of course, but finally even his brother John, who was a
loyal Yorkist in his heart, had had enough. "False, fleeting, perjured
Clarence" is another matter. I think he was mentally unstable, as
evidenced, for example, by his executing his wife's servant, Ankarette
Twynyho, without a trial for supposedly poisoning his wife when she
was obviously tubercular. BTW, I suppose someone should dig up George
of Clarence to see if it can be determined whether he really met his
end by drowning in a butt of malmsey.

I have a theory on that. Suppose that George's body was laid out for
public viewing like Henry VI's. Everyone knows that he was executed
for very vaguely described treasons, but since the corpse still has
its head, someone says jokingly, "Wonder how he died? Did they drown
him in a butt of malmsey? Everyone knows he loved the wretched stuff."

Someone overhears him and says to his neighbor, "Is it true that the
Duke was drowned in a butt of malmsey?"

>From there it becomes, "Have you heard what happened? The Duke of
Clarence was drowned in a butt of malmsey!"

Rumor becomes legend becomes "fact" as quickly as it takes to play a
game of Telephone.

But, anyway, both of George's children were executed by the Henrys for
the crime of having Yorkist blood, jsut one of many reasons that I
don't like the Tudors, at least the Henrys. I prefer even poor,
unstable, treacherous, deluded George to any of the Tudors (except
possibly Edward VI, who didn't live long enough to, say, restore the
abbeys). At least he (Geeorge) had only one wife and didn't behead her!

Potioncat: 
> I just realised, we celebrate Mothers' Day and Fathers' Day at our
church by wearing either white or red roses. White in memory of and
red in honor of.

Carpl:
I thought that, Yorkists and Lancastrians aside, "the red rose tells
her of his passion, the white rose his love so true." :-)

Potioncat: 
> (wondering if it's officially Mother's Day or Mothers' Day?)

Carol:
Mother's Day, singular possessive. I guess it's because we each
celebrate or honor our own mother, not mothers in general. (Well,
grandmas and aunts and even daughters with babies, too, but mostly out
own mother.)

Carol, having fun with Potioncat even if no one else is following this
thread