The war about The War of the Roses

Mon Jun 9 03:22:21 UTC 2008

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince
Winston)" <catlady at ...> wrote:
>
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67@> wrote:
> >
> > But England wouldn't have had Catholic monarchs killing Anglican 
> > subjects (Mary I) and vice versa (Henry VIII, Elizabeth I).
> 
> Carol, you know a lot more history than I do, but this is a point that
> I always argue with my friend Lee about. *I* am very impressed with
Elizabeth I for not having killing any Catholic subjects for religious
reasons. The *only* person she ever killed for heresy is variously
described as an Arian or a Unitarian, but his offense was denying the
Trinity. But Lee is not impressed that Elizabeth I didn't kill her
Catholics, just because she had other oppressions upon them.
>
Carol responds:
Hi, Catlady. I'm no expert on Elizabeth I, but I was under the
impression that she started out tolerant, merely fining Catholics for
not attending Anglican services, but later imprisoned them and even
had them executed as traitors after the Pope excommunicated her and
the various Catholic uprisings convinced her that Catholics were
traitors. Possibly, their being executed for treason conceals the fact
that they were Catholic.

I found the following list of English Catholics executed between 1558
and 1604 (Elizabeth's reign) on Wikipedia:

    * John White, bishop, 1560
    * Sister Isabel Whitehead, Benedictine nun
    * Richard Whiting, Abbot of Glastonbury, 1539
    * John Ackridge, priest, 1585
    * Thomas Ackridge, Franciscan, 1583
    * John Adams, priest, 1586
    * Thomas Alfield, priest, 1585
    * John Almond, Cistercian, 1585
    * John Amias, priest, 1589
    * Robert Anderton, priest, 1586
    * William Andleby, priest, 1597
    * William Baldwin (Bawden), priest, 1588
    * Christopher Bales, priest, 1590
    * Thomas Bedal, priest, 1590
    * George Beesley, priest, 1591
    * William Blackburne, priest, 1586
    * John Bodey, priest, 1583
    * Edmund Bonner, bishop, 1569
    * John Boste, Saint, priest, 1594
    * Gilbert Bourne, bishop, 1569
    * Richard Bowes, priest, 1590
    * John Boxall, priest, 1571
    * Alexander Briant, Jesuit priest, 1581
    * James Brushford, priest, 1593
    * Christopher Buxton, priest, died Canterbury, 1588
    * Edmund Campion, Jesuit priest, 1581
    * William Chedsey, priest, 1561
    * James Claxton (Clarkson), priest, 1588
    * James Clayton, priest, 1588
    * Henry Cole, priest, 1580
    * Laurence Collier, Franciscan, 1590
    * John Collins, priest, 1584
    * Henry Comberford, priest, 1584
    * John Cornelius, Jesuit priest, 1594
    * Thomas Cotesmore, priest, 1584
    * Thomas Cottam, Jesuit priest, 1582
    * Richard Creagh, archbishop of Armagh, 1585
    * Ralph Crockett, priest, 1588
    * Alexander Crowe, priest, 1587
    * Thomas Crowther, priest, 1585
    * Robert Dalby, priest, York, 1589
    * William Davies, priest, 1594
    * William Dean, priest, 1588
    * Richard (Robert) Dibdale]], priest, 1586
    * Francis Dicconson, priest, 1590
    * Roger Dicconson, priest, 1591
    * George Douglas, priest, 1587
    * Anthony Draycott, priest, 1570
    * Edmund Duke, priest, 1590
    * Edward Edwardes (alias Campion), priest, 1588
    * John Feckenham, Benedictine, abbot of Westminster, 1585
    * Thomas Felton, Franciscan, 1588
    * James Fenn, priest, 1584
    * John Fenwick, Jesuit priest, 1579
    * John Finch, priest, 1584
    * John Finglow, priest, 1586
    * William Freeman, priest, 1595
    * Thomas Gabyt, Cistercian, 1575
    * Nicholas Garlick, priest, 1588
    * Miles Gerard, priest, 1590
    * Nicholas Grene, priest, 1571
    * - Gretus, priest
    * John Griffith (alias Jones), Saint, Franciscan friar, 1598
    * William Gunter, priest, 1588
    * William Hambledon, priest, 1585
    * John Hambley, priest, 1587
    * Everard Hanse, priest, 1581
    * Nicholas Harpsfield, priest, 1575
    * William Harrington, priest, 1594
    * John Harrison, priest, 1586
    * William Harrison, priest, 1594
    * William Hart, priest, 1583
    * William Hartley, priest, 1588
    * Thomas Harwood, priest, 1586
    * Richard Hatton, priest, 1584
    * George Haydock, priest, 1584
    * Nicholas Heath, archbishop of York, 1578
    * Thomas Hemerford, priest, 1584
    * John Hewitt, priest, 1588
    * Richard Hill, priest, 1590
    * John Hogg, priest, 1590
    * Thomas Holford, priest, 1588
    * Richard Holliday, priest, 1590
    * Robert Holmes, priest, 1584
    * Richard Horner, priest, 1598
    * Francis Ingleby, priest, 1586
    * John Ingram, priest, 1594
    * Edward James, priest, 1588
    * Edmund Jennings (Genings), Saint, priest, 1591
    * John Jetter, priest, 1585
    * Lawrence Johnson, priest, 1582
    * Edward Jones, priest, 1590
    * Luke Kirby, Saint, priest, 1582
    * Joseph Lambton, priest, 1593
    * Richard Leigh, priest, 1588
    * James Lomax, priest, 1584
    * John Lowe, priest, 1586
    * Robert Ludlam, priest, 1588
    * William Marsden, priest, 1586
    * Roger Martin, priest, 1592
    * Cuthbert Mayne, Saint, priest, 1577
    * Thomas Metham, Jesuit, 1592
    * Anthony Middleton, priest, 1590
    * Robert Morton, priest, 1588
    * Thomas Mudde, Cistercian, 1583
    * John Munden, priest, 1584
    * John Nelson, priest, 1577
    * George Nichols, priest, 1589
    * John Nutter, priest, 1584
    * Robert Nutter, priest, 1600
    * Edward Oldcorne, Jesuit priest, 1561
    * Edward Osbaldeston, priest, 1594
    * Antony Page, priest, 1593
    * Thomas Palasor, priest, 1600
    * Richard Pate, bishop, 1565
    * William Patenson, priest, 1592
    * John Payne, Saint, priest, 1582
    * Thomas Pilchard, priest, 1587
    * Polydore Plasden, priest, 1591
    * Thomas Plumtree, priest, 1570
    * Edward Pole, priest, 1585
    * David Poole, bishop, 1568
    * Thomas Pormort, priest, 1592
    * Alexander Rawlins, priest, 1595
    * Christopher Robinson, priest, Carlisle, 1598
    * John Robinson, priest, 1588
    * John Roche, priest, 1588
    * Stephen Rowsham, priest, 1587
    * John Sandys, priest, 1586
    * Montford Scott, priest, 1591
    * Thomas Sedgwick, priest, 1573
    * Richard Sergeant, priest, 1586
    * Martin Sherson, priest, 1587
    * John Shert, priest, 1582
    * Peter Snow, priest, 1598
    * Robert Southwell, priest, 1595
    * William Spenser, priest, 1589
    * Thomas Sprott, priest, 1600
    * James Stonnes, priest, 1585
    * John Storey, Chancellor to Bishop Bonner, 1571
    * Edward Stransham, priest, 1586
    * Robert Sutton, priest, 1587
    * Edmund Sykes, priest, 1587
    * Robert Sympson (or Richard Sympson), priest, 1588
    * Gabriel Thimelby, priest, 1587
    * Richard Thirkeld, priest, 1583
    * Thomas Thirlby, bishop, 1570
    * James Thompson, priest, York, 1582
    * John Thompson, Jesuit
    * William Thomson, priest, 1586
    * Hugh Taylor, priest, York, 1585
    * Robert Thorpe, priest, 1591
    * Edward Thwing, priest, 1600
    * James Turberville, bishop, 1570
    * Lawrence Vaux, priest, 1585
    * Roger Wakeman, priest, 1584
    * Sir Edward Waldegrave, 1561
    * Henry Walpole, Saint, priest, 1595
    * Edward Waterson, priest, 1593
    * Thomas Watson, bishop of Lincoln, 1584
    * William Way (alias May or Flower), priest, 1588
    * Swithin Wells, priest, 1591
    * Richard Weston, Jesuit
    * Christopher Wharton, priest, 1600
    * Eustace White, priest, 1591
    * Robert Wilcox, priest, 1588
    * Richard Williams, priest, 1592
    * Thomas Wood, priest, 1588
    * John Woodcock, Franciscan, 1646
    * Nicholas Woodfen, priest, 1586
    * Richard Yaxley, priest, 1589

I don't know how accurate it is or whether Elizabeth herself had a
hand in their deaths. According to the article, "The vast majority
were executed under treason laws which were amended to make refusing
to assent to the royal supremacy over the Church, or being (or
harbouring) a Catholic priest, into treasonable offences. Those
convicted were liable under the treason laws to be executed by a
process of hanging, disembowelling while still alive, and the body
then being hacked into quarters - and some of the martyrs were
executed in this manner, although others were either hanged in the
"normal" way or beheaded. Few, if any, were burned alive, the usual
means of execution of religious dissenters under Catholic regimes at
the time."

FWIW, here's a link to the article itself if you're interested:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Catholic_martyrs_of_the_English_Reformation#1561_-_1600

Wasn't it during Elizabeth's reign (1585) that being a Roman catholic
priest in England became a treasonable offense? Jesuits and other
Catholic priests were expelled from England and harboring one was also
a capital offense.

Here's a quote from another article (and my apologies for using
Wikipedia as my source, but that's where Google is leading me): "Under
laws passed during the reign of Elizabeth, it was high treason for an
individual to attempt to defend the jurisdiction of the Pope over the
English Church for a third time (a first offence being a misdemeanour
and a second offence a felony), or for a Roman Catholic priest to
enter the realm and refuse to conform to the English Church."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_treason_in_the_United_Kingdom

I have no personal stake in the matter (it's no fault of Elizabeth's
that she was Henry VII's granddaughter <smile>), so I'll be happy to
listen to your defense of her. I'm not sure, for example, how much
influence a monarch of the time had over laws passed by Parliament.
Could all those people have been killed for political reasons, or did
their high treason in many cases (1585-1604) consist solely of being
(or harboring) a Roman Catholic priest in Elizabethan England?

Carol, who would be equally happy to hear a defense of "Bloody" Mary,
whose executions of Anglican "heretics" are seldom defended