From willsonkmom at msn.com  Thu May  1 02:15:50 2008
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 02:15:50 -0000
Subject: Brit Coms (was Re: Closets and Wardrobes and toilets and vests and things....
In-Reply-To: <fvarm6+immn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fvb94m+643b@eGroups.com>

 
> Geoff: 
> Thanks for the name. I couldn't think of his name to save my life 
> althoguh there's usually an episode running most days on TV over here.
> I don't often watch it; the cringe factor surrounding Hyacinth is too 
> much for  me.
> :-(


Potioncat:
On this side of the pond, the Public Broadcast Stations carry several 
British shows. I suppose these are very old shows, and are run 
together. So on Sunday evenings (in my location) we get "Are you Being 
Served?" "As Time Goes By" (2 episodes), and "Keeping Up Appearances." 
I try not to turn the TV on too early, or leave it on too long, because 
I can't stand the first and last show, but I dearly love "As Time Goes 
By."

My Mom---God rest her soul---loved "Are You Being Served." As she grew 
older she enjoyed watching any of the BBC shows, but especially the 
British comedies. Both of her parents were British and she really 
appreaciated the language and the humour.





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Thu May  1 03:22:11 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 03:22:11 -0000
Subject: "Put down" or "put to sleep"?  and Scantrons (Was; wifebeaters)
In-Reply-To: <fvajq7+6740@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fvbd13+plbm@eGroups.com>

Carol earlier:
<snip>
> > (I was once criticized by a twenty-something for saying that an
animal was put to sleep; the "correct" term--IOW, the new term used by
her generation--is "put down." No understanding whatever of the
concept of linguistic change, not to mention respect for her elders,
but, oh, well!) 
> 
> Magpie:
> I'm a bit suspicious that there is really a "correct" term amongst
20-somethings for this. "Put down" has always sounded a lot harsher to
me than "put to sleep" or "euthanize" (all of which have always been
in use for my whole life, at least). I wonder if that particular woman
didn't just have some private feelings about the terms or happens to
have only heard one, because I'd guess that "put down" was the older 
term. I mean, "put to sleep" implies the use of tranquilizers (it's
exactly what happens to the animal if you do it at the vet's) while
"put down" I associated with potentially shooting it. Which is why I
use "put to sleep," myself. If somebody said "put down" in this 
context I'd picture going out behind the barn with a shotgun!

Carol responds:

My impression was that this particular young woman, who also believed
that prostitution was a perfectly acceptable way to earn a living and
refused to hear my "1970s" view that it was degrading and limited the
prostitute's future career prospects, considered "put to sleep" to be
a euphemism that concealed what she viewed as the harsh reality of
"putting down" an animal. Or maybe she thought my preferred term was
inaccurate because the animal that was "put to sleep" would never wake
up. However, since, in her view, I knew nothing and she knew
everything (I confess to having similar feelings at twenty but I'd
never have *expressed* them to the ostensibly ignorant older person,
it was impossible to talk to her to find out why she felt as she did.)

BTW, my young client is now writing about students taking tests using
Scantrons. She seems to be using the term to refer to the test form. I
thought the Scantron was the machine used to score the test. Or can
the term be used to refer to both?

Carol, feeling more and more like a fossil but agreeing that "put to
sleep" is a perfectly acceptable term, if somewhat euphemistic




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Thu May  1 03:31:34 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 03:31:34 -0000
Subject: wifebeaters Re: Closets and Wardrobes
In-Reply-To: <b6e131bf0804301323y109d654bha08a28be8a10a32b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <fvbdim+b82h@eGroups.com>

Ali:
> I do.  I work as one.  Granted, it's not my job title, but we're a
consulting firm and insists on being obtuse.
> 
> What I meant was that, given the suggestion, I would go back to the
editor/copy editor to see why the suggestion was made (i.e. get a
dialogue going).  In that case, I would also try to get him/her to see
that the word choice was purposeful and appropriate because I would
want to see if, even though the choice was purposeful, whether the
choice of authenticity trumps something else of concern (in this case,
offense to the reader).

Carol:
Ah, but there's no need to get back to me (though I do encourage my
cleints to e-mail me if they have any questions about my comments and
corrections). I'll give my reasons for querying it in a numbered
comment, along with suggested alternatives, but I'll make it clear
that the decision is hers. She has no need to clear it with me--it's
her manuscript--and if she disagrees with my suggestions, all she has
to do is delete the comment. She can also accept or reject the edits
in the manuscript itself. (We use Word's change-tracking feature, or
whatever it's called in the newer versions. I have Word 2000 because I
don't like Microsoft's "improvements.")
  
> ~Ali, who thinks language is a funny thing sometimes

Carol, who shares your view on that last point





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Thu May  1 03:35:44 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 03:35:44 -0000
Subject: wifebeaters Re: Closets and Wardrobes
In-Reply-To: <fvbdim+b82h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fvbdqg+l7pn@eGroups.com>

> Carol earlier:
> Ah, but there's no need to get back to me (though I do encourage my
cleints to e-mail me if they have any questions about my comments and>
corrections). 

"Cleints." Yes, Carol, we really want you to edit this manuscript.

Carol, who double-checks her editing projects before submitting them
to her "cleints"




From alexisnguyen at gmail.com  Thu May  1 03:53:25 2008
From: alexisnguyen at gmail.com (P. Alexis Nguyen)
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 23:53:25 -0400
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] "Put down" or "put to sleep"? and Scantrons (Was; wifebeaters)
In-Reply-To: <fvbd13+plbm@eGroups.com>
References: <fvajq7+6740@eGroups.com> <fvbd13+plbm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b6e131bf0804302053n9cddeb5x57d3d344d2512b0f@mail.gmail.com>

Carol responds:
>  BTW, my young client is now writing about students taking tests using
>  Scantrons. She seems to be using the term to refer to the test form. I
>  thought the Scantron was the machine used to score the test. Or can
>  the term be used to refer to both?

Ali:
My TAs/GAs/profs always called them Scantron sheets, but I can see how
it might be shortened (a la "Can you Xerox this?") and can see the
average reader not getting overly confused, though some might think
the writer a bit odd.


>  Carol, feeling more and more like a fossil but agreeing that "put to
>  sleep" is a perfectly acceptable term, if somewhat euphemistic

Ali:
As Magpie already elaborated, "put to sleep" is somewhat accurate -
animals are usually put to sleep before, um, being sent to the big bed
in the sky... Personally, I'm all for calling it what it is, but I
don't because that would get me too many raised eyebrows.

And Carol, I've sent many an odd draft to "cleints" before.  I know
the feeling (but I think that, considering this is the OT list, people
are quite relaxed here even knowing you're an editor).

~Ali, who thinks English the hardest language she has ever learned



From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Thu May  1 04:13:08 2008
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 04:13:08 -0000
Subject: "Put down" or "put to sleep"?  and Scantrons (Was; wifebeaters)
In-Reply-To: <fvbd13+plbm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fvbg0k+n1ek@eGroups.com>

> Carol responds:
> 
> My impression was that this particular young woman, who also 
believed
> that prostitution was a perfectly acceptable way to earn a living 
and
> refused to hear my "1970s" view that it was degrading and limited 
the
> prostitute's future career prospects, considered "put to sleep" to 
be
> a euphemism that concealed what she viewed as the harsh reality of
> "putting down" an animal. 

Magpie:
Not that she would listen to me either, but I almost wonder why she 
just doesn't say "euthanize" or "kill" if she doesn't want to sugar 
coat. "Put down" doesn't really say anything--one might think you 
were going to insult the animal.

Still, it seems like this is less about language than her own special 
take on issues. Prostitution has no harsh reality, but ending a sick 
animal's life needs hard language.

Speaking personally, I had to put down/put to sleep a wonderful dog 
last year, and "put to sleep" best describes it to me. It wasn't a 
harsh experience. Sad, yes, but she was in pain when she went in and 
peaceful afterwards. Given the choice of having to do that again or 
be a prostitute, I know what I'd choose. (Even if I can't really find 
any good reason it shouldn't be legal, since it's legal to have sex 
for free, I still don't buy the "prostitution's awesome!" claims.)

-m




From HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com  Thu May  1 08:26:18 2008
From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com (HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 1 May 2008 08:26:18 -0000
Subject: New poll for HPFGU-OTChatter 
Message-ID: <1209630378.817.52050.w109@yahoogroups.com>


Enter your vote today!  A new poll has been created for the 
HPFGU-OTChatter group:

OF ALL THE CHOICES BELOW, WHICH BOOKS ARE YOUR FAVORITES?

Please vote for all choices that you have read and would re-read again or recommend. Do you have favorites not listed below?  Post and let us know!

By the way, the books are listed in the order of popularity as determined by the Harris Poll. 

  o The Bible 
  o 'Gone With the Wind,' by Margaret Mitchell 
  o 'The Lord of the Rings,' by J.R.R. Tolkien 
  o 'Harry Potter,' by J.K. Rowling 
  o 'The Stand,' by Stephen King 
  o 'The Da Vinci Code,' by Dan Brown 
  o 'To Kill a Mockingbird,' by Harper Lee 
  o 'Angels and Demons,' by Dan Brown 
  o 'Atlas Shrugged,' by Ayn Rand 
  o 'The Catcher in the Rye,' by J.D. Salinger 


To vote, please visit the following web page:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/surveys?id=2699000 

Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are 
not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups 
web site listed above.

Thanks!

 






From ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com  Thu May  1 08:37:57 2008
From: ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com (Petra Pan)
Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 08:37:57 -0000
Subject: the HP books came in 4th
In-Reply-To: <1209630378.817.52050.w109@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <fvbvh5+51gc@eGroups.com>

According to a (relatively) new poll, the HP books came in #4 amongst
the top 10 most popular books in the US.  I suspect that a survey
amongst the folks here would yield very different results.  So I'm
gonna - poll y'all that is:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/surveys?id=2699000

Not surprised by these usual suspects, except "Atlas Shrugged" by Ayn
Rand.

Petra
a
n  :)

sources:
http://news.aol.com/story/_a/americas-favorite-book-revealed/20080409093509990001
http://www.reuters.com/article/lifestyleMolt/idUSN0835916320080408





From kempermentor at yahoo.com  Thu May  1 15:44:41 2008
From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kempermentor)
Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 15:44:41 -0000
Subject: the HP books came in 4th
In-Reply-To: <fvbvh5+51gc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fvcoh9+jed7@eGroups.com>

> Petra:
> According to a (relatively) new poll, the HP books came in #4 amongst
> the top 10 most popular books in the US.  I suspect that a survey
> amongst the folks here would yield very different results.  ...
> 
> Not surprised by these usual suspects, except "Atlas Shrugged" by Ayn
> Rand.

Kemper now:
You'd think more people would've read 'Fountainhead' over 'Atlas
Shrugged'.  That book is ridikulusly long.  There must be a million
words in it.  I was stoked to get through the first hundred pages,
which if it was normal font, would've been like the first 500 of a
5000 page book.  At least, that's how I remember it.

I wonder if the cult of Ayn Rand passed money to get A Shrugged on the
list.

Kemper




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Thu May  1 19:59:30 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 19:59:30 -0000
Subject: Favorite books: (Was: New poll for HPFGU-OTChatter)
In-Reply-To: <1209630378.817.52050.w109@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <fvd7f2+fa9o@eGroups.com>

HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com wrote:
Do you have favorites not listed below?  Post and let us know!

Carol responds:

I'm torn between "Post and let us know" and "Do not respond to this
post." I'm assuming that the second instruction means don't submit
your vote by posting!

So, having voted by poll, I have the following comments:

Have read and would reread and recommend is not quite the same thing
as "favorite." I have reread and would recommend the Bible (must
reading for anyone who wants to be culturally literate with regard to
Western culture regardless of religion or the absence thereof, and for
sheer beauty and poetry and effect on Western culture, I would
recommend the King James version. If your concern is an accurate
translation, try a more recent one).

I have also reread and would recommend "Gone with the Wind" and "To
Kill a Mockingbird," but I never reread (and discussed) them
obsessively as I have with favorites like LOTR and HP.

One favorite book of mine that didn't make the list is "Moby Dick."
There aren't many books that I feel passionate about, as opposed to
enjoy reading or rereading. "Jane Eyre" comes close, but I've never
discussed it with anyone other than freshman comp students. I enjoy
Austen's works and some of Dickens', but I wouldn't put any of them in
the same class in terms of my personal response (I'm not considering
literary merit at the moment) as the HP books.

As for the books that I didn't vote for, the reasons for not doing so
vary. "Da Vinci Code" I've never read. Somewhat surprisingly, I've
never read "Catcher in the Rye," either. I probably thought, at age
fourteen or so, that I wouldn't like it and never gave it a chance.
And Ayn Rand's books, I simply hate. Maybe the poll should be reworded
to make that distinction?

Carol, hoping that "do not respond" is not an absolute rule




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Thu May  1 20:26:32 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 20:26:32 -0000
Subject: A "wifebeater" anecdote
Message-ID: <fvd91o+4jh8@eGroups.com>

In the interests of research, I related my copyediting dilemma to the
twenty-something assistant manager of my apartment complex and asked
if she could suggest any alternatives for readers in her age group to
the term "wifebeater." After listening sympathetically and giving the
matter a bit of thought, she suggested "muscle shirt."

A few minutes later, having paid my rent and deposited my paycheck in
the wrong order, I was standing in line at the grocery store, waiting
for the young man ahead of me to return empty-handed after looking for
an item he'd forgotten that the store was out of.

He apologized politely for making me wait and I said I didn't mind,
and then I realized what he was wearing--a grey, ribbed sleeveless,
scoop-necked shirt that I would call a tank top. He looked like a
college student, maybe twenty, but he had to be slightly older since
he was buying beer.

Gathering my courage, I said, "Excuse me. What would you call the
shirt you're wearing?"

He looked a bit surprised and slightly amused by the question and said
tentatively, "Do you really want to know?"

I lowered my voice, made sure that no one could hear me except the
young man, his male friend of the same age (who was wearing a black
T-shirt), and the grocery clerk, a woman of about fifty. "Wifebeater?"
I asked.

Again, he looked surprised. I explained why I was asking, and he said,
"Well, it's an A-shirt."

His friend piped up with, "Call it a 'wifebeater.'"

I must have looked distressed because he added, "Or a 'WB.'"

"Would readers know what that meant?" I asked.

He nodded.

I said, "What about 'tank' or 'muscle shirt'?"

"Tank top," the first young man said.

"Tank tops aren't just for women?"

"Tank top," he repeated.

"I'm glad to know that they come in gray," I said and lowered my voice
to a whisper. "'Black wifebeater' doesn't sound right."

The young men, who had finished buying their groceries and loading
them in the cart, roared with laughter and continued laughing as they
left the store.

The grocery clerk said. "Wait till they have a couple of beers
tonight. You're going to be the topic of conversation all night long."

Which is undoubtedly true. I don't think they even need the beer.

Still, though, the first young man did hesitate to tell me, sensing
either from my age or my sex or the combination that I might find the
term offensive.

Carol, who will give the reasons for her concern, suggest "tank top"
and "muscle shirt" as possible alternatives, and leave the decision up
to the client






From willsonkmom at msn.com  Fri May  2 00:06:22 2008
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Fri, 02 May 2008 00:06:22 -0000
Subject: the HP books came in 4th
In-Reply-To: <fvbvh5+51gc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fvdltu+65mu@eGroups.com>

 "Petra Pan" <ms_petra_pan at ...> wrote:
>
> According to a (relatively) new poll, the HP books came in #4 amongst
> the top 10 most popular books in the US.  I suspect that a survey
> amongst the folks here would yield very different results.  So I'm
> gonna - poll y'all that is:


Potioncat:
Of the 5 I've read, I would only re-read 3. Not sure what that says 
about me. But my choices were up there with the rest of you.  

It seems odd to see the Bible listed with the other 9...I guess the 
outcome really depends on how the question was worded and who was 
asked. I didn't read the section at the link.

I did much better not long ago with a list of books that everyone-is-
supposed-to-have-read, but haven't. I had read the greater majority of 
them at least once and several more times.




From stevejjen at earthlink.net  Fri May  2 01:59:47 2008
From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese)
Date: Fri, 02 May 2008 01:59:47 -0000
Subject: the HP books came in 4th
In-Reply-To: <fvcoh9+jed7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fvdsij+lmqp@eGroups.com>

> Kemper now:
> You'd think more people would've read 'Fountainhead' over 'Atlas
> Shrugged'.  That book is ridikulusly long.  There must be a million
> words in it.  I was stoked to get through the first hundred pages,
> which if it was normal font, would've been like the first 500 of a
> 5000 page book.  At least, that's how I remember it.
> 
> I wonder if the cult of Ayn Rand passed money to get A Shrugged on the
> list.

Jen: I tried 'Atlas Shrugged' after Fountainhead - uh, no.  I don't 
even remember the premise now.

Along the same lines, I went through a Salinger stage in high school 
and 'Catcher in the Rye' was my least favorite of the four I read.  
Othrs were Franny and Zooey (favorite), 'Raise High the Roof Beam and 
Seymour: An Introduction' and 'Nine Stories'.  Is it the coming of age 
aspect of Catcher that fascinates?  The anti-hero protagonist?  I found 
Franny's coming of age in 'Franny and Zooey' much more appealing and 
memorable over whatshisname's angst in Catcher.  Am I in the minority - 
did others love Catcher??







From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Fri May  2 02:22:41 2008
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Fri, 02 May 2008 02:22:41 -0000
Subject: Favorite books: (Was: New poll for HPFGU-OTChatter)
In-Reply-To: <fvd7f2+fa9o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fvdtth+gb01@eGroups.com>

> Carol responds:
> 
> I'm torn between "Post and let us know" and "Do not respond to this
> post." I'm assuming that the second instruction means don't submit
> your vote by posting!
> 
> So, having voted by poll, I have the following comments:
> 
> Have read and would reread and recommend is not quite the same thing
> as "favorite." I have reread and would recommend the Bible (must
> reading for anyone who wants to be culturally literate with regard 
to
> Western culture regardless of religion or the absence thereof, and 
for
> sheer beauty and poetry and effect on Western culture, I would
> recommend the King James version. If your concern is an accurate
> translation, try a more recent one).


Alla:

Agreed about the Bible. I read and reread and reread at some point in 
my life, did not do it for several years now, but this book has so 
many beatiful stories.



Carol: 
> I have also reread and would recommend "Gone with the Wind" and "To
> Kill a Mockingbird," but I never reread (and discussed) them
> obsessively as I have with favorites like LOTR and HP.


Alla:

Never read Kill a Mockinbird yet but adore Gone with the wind and if 
there would be a discussion, I would love to participate. I reread it 
once or twice, but the desire to slap Scarlett was tooo strong for me 
to read it more.

Yes love LOTR and that other book ;)

 
> One favorite book of mine that didn't make the list is "Moby Dick."
> There aren't many books that I feel passionate about, as opposed to
> enjoy reading or rereading. "Jane Eyre" comes close, but I've never
> discussed it with anyone other than freshman comp students. I enjoy
> Austen's works and some of Dickens', but I wouldn't put any of them 
in
> the same class in terms of my personal response (I'm not considering
> literary merit at the moment) as the HP books.


Alla:

Jane Eyre is another one which I love and reread, but I tried Moby 
Dick and could not continue, maybe translation was bad hehe. I picked 
it up in russian book store here, read few pages and decided that my 
mood was not for this book.



Carol: 
> As for the books that I didn't vote for, the reasons for not doing 
so
> vary. "Da Vinci Code" I've never read. Somewhat surprisingly, I've
> never read "Catcher in the Rye," either. I probably thought, at age
> fourteen or so, that I wouldn't like it and never gave it a chance.
> And Ayn Rand's books, I simply hate. Maybe the poll should be 
reworded
> to make that distinction?
>

Alla:

Yes, I am aware of all defects Da Vinci Code has, having said that 
even if his research sucked and if many other things did, I just, 
well enjoyed the ride, I thought it was plotted well.






From kempermentor at yahoo.com  Fri May  2 03:09:16 2008
From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kempermentor)
Date: Fri, 02 May 2008 03:09:16 -0000
Subject: the HP books came in 4th
In-Reply-To: <fvdsij+lmqp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fve0ks+ggkq@eGroups.com>

> Jen: 
> ...
> Along the same lines, I went through a Salinger stage in high school 
> and 'Catcher in the Rye' was my least favorite of the four I read.  
> ...
> Is it the coming of age aspect of Catcher that fascinates?
> he anti-hero protagonist?  I found 
> Franny's coming of age in 'Franny and Zooey' much more appealing and 
> memorable over whatshisname's angst in Catcher.  Am I in the minority 
> - did others love Catcher??

Kemper now:
Nice to 'see' you Jen!
Holden Caulfield.  I read his adventure when I was 12 and didn't get
it.  I read it again in high school and it made more sense.

I wouldn't say I loved the story, but I enjoyed it.

Kemper





From kking0731 at gmail.com  Fri May  2 03:11:10 2008
From: kking0731 at gmail.com (snow15145)
Date: Fri, 02 May 2008 03:11:10 -0000
Subject: A "wifebeater" anecdote
In-Reply-To: <fvd91o+4jh8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fve0oe+na0q@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> 
wrote:
>
> In the interests of research, I related my copyediting dilemma to 
the
> twenty-something assistant manager of my apartment complex and asked
> if she could suggest any alternatives for readers in her age group 
to
> the term "wifebeater." After listening sympathetically and giving 
the
> matter a bit of thought, she suggested "muscle shirt."
> 
> A few minutes later, having paid my rent and deposited my paycheck 
in
> the wrong order, I was standing in line at the grocery store, 
waiting
> for the young man ahead of me to return empty-handed after looking 
for
> an item he'd forgotten that the store was out of.
> 
> He apologized politely for making me wait and I said I didn't mind,
> and then I realized what he was wearing--a grey, ribbed sleeveless,
> scoop-necked shirt that I would call a tank top. He looked like a
> college student, maybe twenty, but he had to be slightly older since
> he was buying beer.
> 
> Gathering my courage, I said, "Excuse me. What would you call the
> shirt you're wearing?"
> 
> He looked a bit surprised and slightly amused by the question and 
said
> tentatively, "Do you really want to know?"
> 
> I lowered my voice, made sure that no one could hear me except the
> young man, his male friend of the same age (who was wearing a black
> T-shirt), and the grocery clerk, a woman of about 
fifty. "Wifebeater?"
> I asked.
> 
> Again, he looked surprised. I explained why I was asking, and he 
said,
> "Well, it's an A-shirt."
> 
> His friend piped up with, "Call it a 'wifebeater.'"
> 
> I must have looked distressed because he added, "Or a 'WB.'"
> 
> "Would readers know what that meant?" I asked.
> 
> He nodded.
> 
> I said, "What about 'tank' or 'muscle shirt'?"
> 
> "Tank top," the first young man said.
> 
> "Tank tops aren't just for women?"
> 
> "Tank top," he repeated.
> 
> "I'm glad to know that they come in gray," I said and lowered my 
voice
> to a whisper. "'Black wifebeater' doesn't sound right."
> 
> The young men, who had finished buying their groceries and loading
> them in the cart, roared with laughter and continued laughing as 
they
> left the store.
> 
> The grocery clerk said. "Wait till they have a couple of beers
> tonight. You're going to be the topic of conversation all night 
long."
> 
> Which is undoubtedly true. I don't think they even need the beer.
> 
> Still, though, the first young man did hesitate to tell me, sensing
> either from my age or my sex or the combination that I might find 
the
> term offensive.
> 
> Carol, who will give the reasons for her concern, suggest "tank top"
> and "muscle shirt" as possible alternatives, and leave the decision 
up
> to the client

Snow:

I absolutely loved your grocery-line conversation (I have had quite a 
few interesting dialogs myself in line; the younger generation are 
great when you promote them to express themselves). 

Before you come to your final decision with your client, I would just 
like to add a conversation I had with my fifteen year old daughter, 
who attends a very diverse school in the suburbs of Pittsburgh. I 
asked her if she had ever heard of a wifebeater shirt and her answer 
was no. She then went on to say that they wear `beaters though that 
are usually black or white worn under another shirt (when at school, 
since tees are not allowed). Her analogy was that the `beater to a 
boy is the equivalent of a cami for a girl. When asked what type of 
person usually wears them, she said that the majority was the bad 
crowd. 

[My daughter's school has been in the local news several times this 
year for what they would like to refer to as neighborhood issues and 
not gang violence. More than several teachers have been hurt in two 
separate occasions that made it as far as the local media.]

If the author of this book is attempting to portrait a type of person 
by the clothing style they wear, she might not want to veer too far 
from the wording she chose to use. I would propose that she use the 
word `beater which would suggest the offensive prefix `wife' but 
still allow the descriptive word that her younger audience has 
already adopted (`beater). 

Snow





From kempermentor at yahoo.com  Fri May  2 03:16:56 2008
From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kempermentor)
Date: Fri, 02 May 2008 03:16:56 -0000
Subject: Favorite books: (Was: New poll for HPFGU-OTChatter)
In-Reply-To: <fvdtth+gb01@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fve138+3s19@eGroups.com>

> Alla:
> Yes, I am aware of all defects Da Vinci Code has, having said that 
> even if his research sucked and if many other things did, I just, 
> well enjoyed the ride, I thought it was plotted well.


Kemper now:
Wow, really Alla?  That surprises me...
I guess it was plotted well but it was the most predictable book I
ever read.  I was so pissed.  Not really at the book, cause Hey good
for Dan Brown for getting paid.  More at the populace for duping me
into believing it would be a good book. 
... I guess I'm more pissed at me for being duped ...

Kemper




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Fri May  2 03:44:43 2008
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Fri, 02 May 2008 03:44:43 -0000
Subject: Favorite books: (Was: New poll for HPFGU-OTChatter)
In-Reply-To: <fve138+3s19@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fve2nb+ath9@eGroups.com>

> Kemper now:
> Wow, really Alla?  That surprises me...
> I guess it was plotted well but it was the most predictable book I
> ever read.  I was so pissed.  Not really at the book, cause Hey good
> for Dan Brown for getting paid.  More at the populace for duping me
> into believing it would be a good book. 
> ... I guess I'm more pissed at me for being duped ...
> 
> Kemper
>



Alla:

Yes, yes I know with the books I usually love, I should not be 
enjoying this one. Heeee, but I cannot help myself, I do read very 
different books.

I am in love with War and Peace and Crime and Punishment and I will 
unashamedly read romance genre to give my brain some rest :)

Maybe I did not find it too predictable, because I do not read many 
books of this genre actually. Not sure, but yes, I liked it.

I mean I read classic mysteries - Gardner, Stout, Cristie, but that 
is it and thrillers - I just do not read.

So book was fresh enough to me, not enough to spot villain right 
away, etc.




From predigirl1 at yahoo.com  Fri May  2 04:37:05 2008
From: predigirl1 at yahoo.com (Alex Hogan)
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 21:37:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] "Put down" or "put to sleep"? Killing animals
In-Reply-To: <fvbd13+plbm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <87932.458.qm@web53006.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

"Put to sleep" is a ridiculous term meant to make it "OK" to kill animals. They just go to sleep. Yeah, right. They are killed. Rather nastily. Go to your local pound if you do not know what goes on there. They should have happy lives, not a doomed future. Get your animals spayed and neutered before they create more little lives that have to be snuffed out. And if you want a pet, get one from a shelter, they are so thrilled and happy to be with someone who wants them! They are the best! Especially cats. Sorry, my personal love of kitties is a bit much.
   
  Alex Hogan (co-resident of 3 saved cats and 2 dogs whom are the hubbys rescues)

Carol <justcarol67 at yahoo.com> wrote:
          Carol earlier:
<snip>
> > (I was once criticized by a twenty-something for saying that an
animal was put to sleep; the "correct" term--IOW, the new term used by
her generation--is "put down." No understanding whatever of the
concept of linguistic change, not to mention respect for her elders,
but, oh, well!) 
> 
> Magpie:


                           

       
---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Fri May  2 06:36:12 2008
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Fri, 02 May 2008 06:36:12 -0000
Subject: Favorite books: (Was: New poll for HPFGU-OTChatter)
In-Reply-To: <fvdtth+gb01@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fvecos+mqal@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" 
<dumbledore11214 at ...> wrote:

> > Carol:

 
> > I have reread and would recommend the Bible (must
> > reading for anyone who wants to be culturally literate with regard 
> > to Western culture regardless of religion or the absence thereof, and 
> > for sheer beauty and poetry and effect on Western culture, I would
> > recommend the King James version. If your concern is an accurate
> > translation, try a more recent one).
 
> Alla:
 
> Agreed about the Bible. I read and reread and reread at some point in 
> my life, did not do it for several years now, but this book has so 
> many beatiful stories.

Geoff:
I would agree that the KJV is a fine example of beautiful English but, 
speaking as a Christian I would make two caveats:
(a) The Bible is not written as fiction.
(b) It /is/ written as a primer of life as it should be lived.




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Fri May  2 06:43:18 2008
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Fri, 02 May 2008 06:43:18 -0000
Subject: "Put down" or "put to sleep"? Killing animals
In-Reply-To: <87932.458.qm@web53006.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <fved66+p893@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Alex Hogan <predigirl1 at ...> wrote:

Carol earlier:
> <snip>
> > > (I was once criticized by a twenty-something for saying that an
> animal was put to sleep; the "correct" term--IOW, the new term used by
> her generation--is "put down." No understanding whatever of the
> concept of linguistic change, not to mention respect for her elders,
> but, oh, well!) 

 Alex:
> "Put to sleep" is a ridiculous term meant to make it "OK" to kill animals. They just go to 
sleep. Yeah, right. They are killed. Rather nastily. Go to your local pound if you do not 
know what goes on there. They should have happy lives, not a doomed future. Get your 
animals spayed and neutered before they create more little lives that have to be snuffed 
out. And if you want a pet, get one from a shelter, they are so thrilled and happy to be 
with someone who wants them! They are the best! Especially cats. Sorry, my personal love 
of kitties is a bit much.

Geoff:
As the owner of two dogs and a megalomaniac 18-year old female moggy(!), I have no 
quibble with either term.

The phrase which /does/ jar with me occasionally occurs in newspaper reports usually 
when there has been some sort of unfortunate incident when a dog has attacked a person:
"The animal was destroyed".

That I do dislike.




From ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com  Fri May  2 07:04:45 2008
From: ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com (Petra Pan)
Date: Fri, 02 May 2008 07:04:45 -0000
Subject: A "wifebeater" anecdote
In-Reply-To: <fvd91o+4jh8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fveeed+5d9c@eGroups.com>

> Carol, who will give the reasons for her concern, suggest "tank top"
> and "muscle shirt" as possible alternatives, and leave the decision up
> to the client

Petra:

If this is suppose to be a romance novel, wouldn't it be sexier
if the guy is not wearing any shirt at all, say, wearing only 
the shadow from his chest hair?  <eg>  For the record, I tend to 
skip over garment descriptions in romance novels.

So, is this guy the main male protagonist?  If not, perhaps
the term "wifebeater" serves more purposes than just to suggest
a well-developed torso.  Has anyone suggested "muscle-T" yet?

Petra
a
n  :)




From ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com  Fri May  2 07:10:51 2008
From: ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com (Petra Pan)
Date: Fri, 02 May 2008 07:10:51 -0000
Subject: the HP books came in 4th
In-Reply-To: <fvbvh5+51gc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fveepr+edgc@eGroups.com>

Petra wrote, previously:
> Not surprised by these usual suspects, except "Atlas
> Shrugged" by Ayn Rand.

Petra:

Correcting myself - surprised at absence of PRIDE & PREJUDICE.
 
Petra
a
n  :)






From willsonkmom at msn.com  Fri May  2 11:46:21 2008
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Fri, 02 May 2008 11:46:21 -0000
Subject: Happy thoughts was (Re: "Put down" or "put to sleep"? Killing animals
In-Reply-To: <fved66+p893@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fveuud+4io5@eGroups.com>


> 
>  Alex:
 Get your 
> animals spayed and neutered before they create more little lives 
that have to be snuffed 
> out. 

Potioncat:
Actually, it depends on whether an unwanted animal is being put down, 
or a beloved pet is being put out of misery.

In our house "put down" means being sent to the basement for the 
night. Our kitten thought it was great fun to pounce on sleeping 
family members in the middle of the night. Or better, to pounce on 
kids just as they were falling asleep. Part of the bedtime routine 
was to "put down the kitty."

So we FILKed the Sesame Street Song  "Put Down the Duckie"

You gotta put down the kitty.
You gotta put down the kitty.
You gotta put down the kitty,
if you want to get to sleep tonight.

It took us a while to learn that the kitty knew what the song meant. 
If we started singing it "before" we had her securely in our arms, it 
took forever to find her.











From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Fri May  2 14:14:51 2008
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Fri, 02 May 2008 14:14:51 -0000
Subject: "Put down" or "put to sleep"? Killing animals
In-Reply-To: <87932.458.qm@web53006.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <fvf7kr+685p@eGroups.com>

Alex:
> "Put to sleep" is a ridiculous term meant to make it "OK" to kill 
animals. They just go to sleep. Yeah, right. They are killed. Rather 
nastily. Go to your local pound if you do not know what goes on there. 
They should have happy lives, not a doomed future. Get your animals 
spayed and neutered before they create more little lives that have to 
be snuffed out. And if you want a pet, get one from a shelter, they are 
so thrilled and happy to be with someone who wants them! They are the 
best! Especially cats. Sorry, my personal love of kitties is a bit much.

Magpie:
I still don't see what's so ridiculous about it. Of course everybody 
knows it means they're being killed. And not nastily at all, imo. I sat 
with a dog while they did it not too long ago. They put her to sleep. 
First one tranquilizer so she was gone, then another to put her to 
sleep, and then the one that killed her, with me and my roommate 
petting her the whole time.

The nasty part was the brain tumor causing her constant pain. If you 
prefer the term "put down" or "killed" or "euthanized" I'm fine with 
any of them--I don't use "put to sleep" as a euphamism but because 
that's the term that's most common to me. "Put down" doesn't 
say "killed" any more than put to sleep, after all. She was dead at the 
end any way we say it.

She was spayed, though, of course, and she came from a shelter and I 
think she did have a happy life before that. (Don't know what happened 
before she was abandoned and wound up in the shelter, but she was 
generally happy.) 

-m




From zgirnius at yahoo.com  Fri May  2 15:27:26 2008
From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (Zara)
Date: Fri, 02 May 2008 15:27:26 -0000
Subject: the HP books came in 4th
In-Reply-To: <fvdsij+lmqp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fvfbsu+auu5@eGroups.com>

> Jen: 
>  Am I in the minority - 
> did others love Catcher??

Zara:
It is the one book on the Top 10 list I actively dislike. I had to read 
it in 10th grade for an English class and loathed it. I would not 
recommend it, have not read it again, and have never read anything else 
by Salinger as a consequence of my dislike for it. I have no idea what 
the appeal is to other people.

I did not care much for Atlas Shrugged either, but it has some 
entertainment value, anyway. Some intended, some perhaps not. 






From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri May  2 18:59:07 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Fri, 02 May 2008 18:59:07 -0000
Subject: A "wifebeater" anecdote
In-Reply-To: <fveeed+5d9c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fvfo9r+ojjr@eGroups.com>

> > Carol, who will give the reasons for her concern, suggest "tank
top" and "muscle shirt" as possible alternatives, and leave the
decision up to the client
> 
> Petra:
> 
> If this is suppose to be a romance novel, wouldn't it be sexier if
the guy is not wearing any shirt at all, say, wearing only the shadow
from his chest hair?  <eg>  For the record, I tend to skip over
garment descriptions in romance novels.
> 
> So, is this guy the main male protagonist?  If not, perhaps the term
"wifebeater" serves more purposes than just to suggest a
well-developed torso.  Has anyone suggested "muscle-T" yet?

Carol:

Yes, he's the male protagonist, and the purpose of the shirt as a plot
device is to draw attention to his chest muscles. At the point in the
manuscript that I've currently reached, he's just taken it off, along
with his boxers, and is in the process of taking a rather too detailed
(but tastefully depicted) shower. I expect the female protagonist to
step into the bathroom for a surprise encounter at any moment. I
shouldn't say any more; it's an unpublished book.

No one has suggested "muscle-T" yet but that's a good one, and not as
mysterious as "beater" to someone unfamiliar with the term."

Carol, thanking everyone for their suggestions, including the two
young men from the grocery store, whom I rather hope I'll never see again!




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri May  2 19:31:40 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Fri, 02 May 2008 19:31:40 -0000
Subject: "Put down" or "put to sleep"? Killing animals
In-Reply-To: <87932.458.qm@web53006.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <fvfq6s+la8n@eGroups.com>

Alex Hogan wrote:
>
> "Put to sleep" is a ridiculous term meant to make it "OK" to kill
animals. They just go to sleep. Yeah, right. They are killed. Rather
nastily. Go to your local pound if you do not know what goes on there.
They should have happy lives, not a doomed future. Get your animals
spayed and neutered before they create more little lives that have to
be snuffed out. And if you want a pet, get one from a shelter, they
are so thrilled and happy to be with someone who wants them! They are
the best! Especially cats. Sorry, my personal love of kitties is a bit
much.

Carol responds:

of course, "put to sleep" is a euphemism, but there's no need for
young people like the woman I'm talking about to get upset and correct
their elders for using a term that they were brought up with. ("Pass
away" is a euphemism, too, but I don't correct people for using it
even though I see it as hiding from the truth that the person in
question died.) It was the young woman's rudeness in correcting me
that disturbed me, not her preferred term, "put down," which I at that
point (some years ago) had never heard.

I have also been "corrected" by my juniors for using "Xerox" as a verb
meaning "to photocopy" and "Kleenex" to mean "tissue." Sorry. These
are terms that are familiar to me and were not considered incorrect
when I learned to use them, and I'm not going to stop using them just
because some kid corrects me. (Other terms, such as "Indian giver,"
which were in common use when I was a child, I have, of course,
stopped using.) At least my generation (or those of my acquaintance)
doesn't go around using four-letter words in every other sentence as
many (not all) younger people do.

It seems to me that politeness--explaining why a certain term might be
preferable to another term--is always better than confrontation. And I
sincerely hope that the young woman in question is not so
confrontational and sanctimonious with her employers, who are likely
to be about a generation older, or she'll soon be out of a job.

When I was young, I was sure, despite my inexperience, that "old"
people didn't know anything, either. Now that I'm no longer young, I
understand that my elders, being human, were right on some counts and
wrong on others. I also understand that language changes with each
generation, whether I want it to or not.

You have every right to consider "put to sleep" an inaccurate and
overly euphemistic expression, as did the young woman in question. It
was her utter disrespect, her rudeness, her assumption that she was
right and that my old-fashioned diction could not possibly have any
justification and that I did not even deserve to be heard, that I
found both offensive and disturbing.

And, just as you find "put to sleep" disturbing, I find "wifebeater"
disturbing. How strange that the various generations all understand
the importance of language but can't agree on what is and isn't
acceptable. It would be nice if everyone--young, middle-aged, and
old--listened to what the others had to say and came to some sort of
compromise. But a knee-jerk reaction and confrontation and the refusal
to listen (and I'm talking about the young woman referred to in my
post, not you) is not going to work. Rather than listening to what
that young woman had to say and perhaps agreeing that she had a point,
I would happily have slapped her for her rudeness and inappropriate
condescenscion, and I was quite happy never to have to see her or
speak with her again. 

Carol, wishing that common courtesy was still common!




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri May  2 20:10:57 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Fri, 02 May 2008 20:10:57 -0000
Subject: Favorite books: (Was: New poll for HPFGU-OTChatter)
In-Reply-To: <fvecos+mqal@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fvfsgh+6faj@eGroups.com>

Carol earlier:
> 
> > > I have reread and would recommend the Bible (must reading for
anyone who wants to be culturally literate with regard to Western
culture regardless of religion or the absence thereof, and for sheer
beauty and poetry and effect on Western culture, I would recommend the
King James version. If your concern is an accurate translation, try a
more recent one).
>  
Alla replied:
>  
> > Agreed about the Bible. I read and reread and reread at some point
in  my life, did not do it for several years now, but this book has
so> many beatiful stories.
> 
Geoff responded:
> I would agree that the KJV is a fine example of beautiful English
but, speaking as a Christian I would make two caveats:
> (a) The Bible is not written as fiction.
> (b) It /is/ written as a primer of life as it should be lived.
>
Carol responds:

Which is why I stipulated that those who read it for religious reasons
may prefer a more modern and accurate translation. 

But, just as a cathredral is at the same time the house of God to
Christians and an inspiring architectural monument, the King James
tranlation is a memorable and beautiful work of art, and the Hebrew
parallel poetry of some portions of the Old Testament was composed
*as* poetry, following certain conventions (just as the epistles are
letters and followed the conventions of letters composed in Greek at
that time). The Song of Solomon is a love poem, which can be read on
two levels, spiritual and erotic, and the imagery of a sheep-herding
culture ("Thy teeth are as a flock of sheep which go up from the
washing") is best read, IMHO, in the highly poetic and old-fahioned
English of the King James version.

Phrases from the King James Bible (and some from Cranmer's Book of
Common Prayer, composed a few generations later in the same early
modern English that we associate with the earlier Elizabethan era)
have become embedded in our culture. Biblical allusions appear in
poetry and prose alike, and readers unfamiliar with the KJB are likely
to miss them if it is not itself part of their reading experience, and
if they encounter them only in a modern form, they will miss the sheer
beauty and power of the language (which can be, for some readers, an
aid to appreciating the spiritual nature of the various books of the
Bible).

Look at the twenty-third psalm in the King James version:

The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want.
He maketh me to lie down in green pastures;
He leadeth me beside the still waters.
He restoreth my soul;
He leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death,
I will fear no evil;
For thou art with me;
Thy rod and thy staff, they comfort me.
Thou preparest a table for me in the presence of mine enemies;
Thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.
Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life:
And I will dwell in the house of the Lord for ever.

Beautiful. Memorable. It brings tears to my eyes every time I read it.
And no modern translation can create the same effect, that perfect
blend of imagery and language and meaning unique to the King James
Bible (except possibly the Begats :-) )

I'm not arguing with your perspective that the Bible is primarily a
religious work. I'm just stating that the King James Bible,
specifically, is a literary and cultural treasure even for those
outside the Christian faith, and its impact on British and American
language and literature is probably incalculable. I'm talking about
the beauty of the language and the importance of this particular
translation to Western civilization (I should amend that to the
culture and literature of English-speaking countries).

Carol, conceding that it's a bit of a jolt to see "the Bible" (no
translation specified) on the same list as "Catcher in the Rye" or HP,
for that matter




From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Fri May  2 21:27:19 2008
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Fri, 02 May 2008 21:27:19 -0000
Subject: the HP books came in 4th
In-Reply-To: <fvfbsu+auu5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fvg0vn+k73m@eGroups.com>

> Zara:
> It is the one book on the Top 10 list I actively dislike. I had to 
read 
> it in 10th grade for an English class and loathed it. I would not 
> recommend it, have not read it again, and have never read anything 
else 
> by Salinger as a consequence of my dislike for it. I have no idea 
what 
> the appeal is to other people.

Magpie:
I didn't like it either. Or Franny and Zooey.

-m





From marion11111 at yahoo.com  Sat May  3 22:05:11 2008
From: marion11111 at yahoo.com (marion11111)
Date: Sat, 03 May 2008 22:05:11 -0000
Subject: This has to be the height of stupidity and insensitivity!
In-Reply-To: <b6e131bf0804292123j211dce0clc4aaec48b685611@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <fvinin+p45a@eGroups.com>

Replying late on this one, but as always there is more to the story.

http://www.thecoveherald.com/news/story.aspx?s=24645

The boy already received a three-day suspension earlier that day for 
using his cell phone with a friend.  The father calls home at least 
once a week so the school day is not the only time the boy can talk 
to him. The father was calling in resonse to an e-mail his wife had 
sent earlier that week asking him to call his son regarding some 
issues the boy was having with other kids.  The mother went directly 
to the media when the school officials weren't available at the time 
she was picking up her son.  

Yes, he had to serve his suspension.  Student disciplinary records 
are cleared at the end of the school year as a matter of course so 
it will not ruin his life. 

Not sure why the AP said he could take calls and then didn't make 
note of that.  Maybe a miscommunication with the mom? It seems that 
the policy has been altered for this particular boy for the future 
with the school requesting that those calls be for emergancies.  

Maybe the school could have been more sensitive, but since none of 
us were there and there seems to be a lot more going on here, it's 
hard to say.  The school certainly can't talk to the media about the 
kid's behavior history or the mother's complaint history.  It does 
sound like the mother is on the dramatic side and made every effort 
to blow this one up.






From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Sat May  3 22:51:01 2008
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Sat, 03 May 2008 22:51:01 -0000
Subject: These Changing Times.
Message-ID: <fviq8l+bod1@eGroups.com>

Well, graduation time is nearly on us, and once again we face
the age old tradition of the graduation party where aunts and
uncles, grandma and grandpa, brother and sisters gather together
for some light refreshments to watch the graduate open gifts 
and count the money they are raking in.

But now days there is a twist. Back in the day, graduation,
confirmation, funerals, and weddings all meant a spoon full of
mixed nuts, a couple open fact mini-rye deviled ham sandwiches,
maybe a small splash of potato salad, a small square of cake,
and lots of coffee.

But today, kids are creating their own non-traditional 
celebrations. My niece is going to have a taco bar at her
graduation party. And, another one of her friends has hired
a corn dog concession stand to come to the party and provide
all the corn dogs you can eat. 

For those who don't know, a corn dog, also called 'pronto pup',
is a hot dog placed on a stick, dipped in (usually) corn batter
then deep fried in oil until the batter turns to a dark brown
pancake color (American pancakes that is). 

Here in Minnesota and other places where the county and state
fair are big events, it seems like almost a contest to see 
who can come up with the most innovative food served on a
stick -- porkchops on a stick, deep fried Snickers Bars on a
stick. As always, 'on a stick' is good, but you get bonus 
points if you can figure out how to deep fry the food as well. 
I suspect if there was a way to do it, they would come up with 
battered deep fried ice cream on a stick. 

Just curious if the 'taco' graduation party is a local thing,
or if these unusual graduation parties are springing up 
everywhere?

steve/bboyminn




From leekaiwen at yahoo.com  Sun May  4 01:22:34 2008
From: leekaiwen at yahoo.com (Lee Kaiwen)
Date: Sun, 04 May 2008 09:22:34 +0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: the HP books came in 4th
In-Reply-To: <fvcoh9+jed7@eGroups.com>
References: <fvcoh9+jed7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <481D0FDA.4030609@yahoo.com>

kempermentor On 01/05/2008 23:44:

> Kemper now:
> You'd think more people would've read 'Fountainhead' over 'Atlas
> Shrugged'.

I would've thought people had read *anything* over "Atlas Shrugged". I 
had to read it for university and it was one of my least favorite 
memories of my college years. Incredibly long and massively boring.

The "massively boring" bit also applies to anything by Dan Brown (with 
apologies to the two OTChatter folk who voted for him). I have no idea 
how he ever got published. "Masively boring" (along with "intellectually 
insulting" and "historically boneheaded" also applies to DaVinci 
(DaVinci? DaVinci?!? The guy's name is LEONARDO, please!) Code, which 
was probably the worse thing I've read since Sword of Shannara thirty 
years ago. Definitely two hours of my life I'd like to get back.

> I wonder if the cult of Ayn Rand passed money to get A Shrugged 
 > on the list.

Petra doesn't say what poll it was. But if it's like the recent Time 
Magazine "100 Best English Language Novels" (which included at least one 
comic book!), the process was probably highly political. The Time Mag 
list reads like one of those "gotta include something by F. Scott 
Fitzgerald, gotta include something by Philip K. Dick" exercises.

Now that I've thoroughly offended all the Dan Brown, Terry Brooks and 
Ayn Rand fans here, I'll be off.

CJ




From kempermentor at yahoo.com  Sun May  4 03:32:08 2008
From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kemper mentor)
Date: Sat, 3 May 2008 20:32:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Book recommendations?
Message-ID: <307717.24248.qm@web90306.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I'd be interested in hearing what my non-American but English speaking brothers and sisters would recommend as their country's best books:  something old, something new, and something influential.

I would say for America: 
Huckleberry Finn by Mark Twain (old),
Beloved by Toni Morrison or Confederacy of Dunces by John Kennedy Toole (new), 
Superman by Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster (influential)

Without any intention to do so, I realize that with the exception of Superman, slavery (or its aftermath) seems to be a theme.  
Hmm...I will have to consider what that means.  

Of course, my American siblings can offer their suggestions as well.  I just wanted to expand my reading beyond the American borders... though, if the English can suggest someone other than Shakespeare that would be super.

Kemper, getting ready for summer reading


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From drdara at yahoo.com  Sun May  4 03:52:25 2008
From: drdara at yahoo.com (danielle dassero)
Date: Sat, 3 May 2008 20:52:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Book recommendations?
Message-ID: <351909.56749.qm@web65508.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

I like Jim Butcher as an author, his series the Harry Dresden Files are fantastic and his other series the Codex Alera is also wonderful. I also like Laurell K Hamilton.? They would qualify as something new. Not sure it would be considered america's best lol but I like the authors
Danielle


----- Original Message ----
From: kemper mentor <kempermentor at yahoo.com>
To: hpfgu otchatter <hpfgu-otchatter at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 3, 2008 9:32:08 PM
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Book recommendations?


I'd be interested in hearing what my non-American but English speaking brothers and sisters would recommend as their country's best books: something old, something new, and something influential.

I would say for America: 
Huckleberry Finn by Mark Twain (old),
Beloved by Toni Morrison or Confederacy of Dunces by John Kennedy Toole (new), 
Superman by Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster (influential)

Without any intention to do so, I realize that with the exception of Superman, slavery (or its aftermath) seems to be a theme. 
Hmm...I will have to consider what that means. 

Of course, my American siblings can offer their suggestions as well. I just wanted to expand my reading beyond the American borders... though, if the English can suggest someone other than Shakespeare that would be super.

Kemper, getting ready for summer reading

____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
Be a better friend, newshound, and 
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile. yahoo.com/ ;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR 8HDtDypao8Wcj9tA cJ
 


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Be a better friend, newshound, and 
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sun May  4 04:15:12 2008
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sun, 04 May 2008 04:15:12 -0000
Subject: Book recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <307717.24248.qm@web90306.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <fvjd8g+okpv@eGroups.com>


--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, kemper mentor 
<kempermentor at ...> wrote:
>
> I'd be interested in hearing what my non-American but English 
speaking brothers and sisters would recommend as their country's best 
books:  something old, something new, and something influential.
> 
> I would say for America: 
> Huckleberry Finn by Mark Twain (old),
> Beloved by Toni Morrison or Confederacy of Dunces by John Kennedy 
Toole (new), 
> Superman by Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster (influential)
> 
> Without any intention to do so, I realize that with the exception 
of Superman, slavery (or its aftermath) seems to be a theme.  
> Hmm...I will have to consider what that means.  
> 
> Of course, my American siblings can offer their suggestions as 
well.  I just wanted to expand my reading beyond the American 
borders... though, if the English can suggest someone other than 
Shakespeare that would be super.
> 
> Kemper, getting ready for summer reading
>


Alla:

Boy, oh boy Kemper this is hard. To pick three best books of russian 
literature, sigh on the top of my head I can name at least 25 ( both 
writers and poets together) which I consider to be quite brilliant.

So, please consider these to be rather random picks among the best :)

Eugene Onegin by Alexander Pushkin. I have no clue whether the 
translation was able to translate the clear beauty of the original 
and 
this is poetry, so I hope it is at least close. But this book is 
really influential for forming the language as we know it now and 
heck, for just such amazing writing.

http://www.amazon.ca/Eugene-Onegin-Novel-Alexander-
Pushkin/dp/0192838997/ref=pd_bowtega_2?
ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1209874088&sr=1-2

Life and Fate by Vassily Grossman - hardly qualifies as summer 
reading, must warn you, but really good.

http://www.amazon.ca/Life-Fate-Vasily-Grossman/dp/1860460194

"Intergirl" by Vladimir Kunin. I am just giving you the link because 
I find it highly amusing.

I think this author is brilliant. I read probably ten or fifteen 
books by him and I like every single one of them and have it in my 
library. This book I find to be probably the weakest one, but it 
became famous because it was one of the first books in post 
perestroyka literature which talked about life of prostitute openly 
and with sympathy.

It is still a fun read, but if you find something else of him 
translated, start with something else.

http://www.amazon.ca/gp/offer-listing/0930267079/ref=sr_1_olp_1?
ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1209874311&sr=1-1




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sun May  4 04:25:00 2008
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sun, 04 May 2008 04:25:00 -0000
Subject: the HP books came in 4th
In-Reply-To: <481D0FDA.4030609@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <fvjdqs+qhls@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Lee Kaiwen <leekaiwen at ...> 
wrote:
<SNIP>
> Now that I've thoroughly offended all the Dan Brown, Terry Brooks and 
> Ayn Rand fans here, I'll be off.
>


Alla:

LOLOLOL. You certainly did not offend me. I am not Dan Brown's fan in 
general, I have not read anything else that he wrote, but I heard the 
buzz and finally decided to check the book out, DaVinci code that is.

As I mentioned to Kemper, surprisingly I enjoyed it. I enjoyed it as 
one time read, but it was fun.

Several of my acquaintances disliked the book so much that I almost 
felt ashamed of myself to admit that I did like it.

But you know what? (I am not trying to be snarky here or even referring 
only to you, more like to all of my acquaintances who disliked the book 
so). I have a solid knowledge of russian classical literature 
(nineteenth century that is), I believe I can say that in my life I had 
read a lot of great books and will continue to read them.

Of course DaVinci code does not come close to Crime and Punishment, or 
Bunin, or Turgenev, or Chechov, but I also read plenty of books which 
are well, to put it mildly worse.

Alla




From leekaiwen at yahoo.com  Sun May  4 04:43:30 2008
From: leekaiwen at yahoo.com (Lee Kaiwen)
Date: Sun, 04 May 2008 12:43:30 +0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] These Changing Times.
In-Reply-To: <fviq8l+bod1@eGroups.com>
References: <fviq8l+bod1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <481D3EF2.9050707@yahoo.com>

Steve On 04/05/2008 06:51:

> I suspect if there was a way to do it, they would come 
 > up with battered deep fried ice cream on a stick.

What do you mean "if there were a way?" Fried ice cream is a Mexican 
favorite, one I fell in love with when I visited there in high school. 
It's true I've never seen it on a stick, but it wouldn't be hard to put 
it there.

CJ




From leekaiwen at yahoo.com  Sun May  4 04:45:05 2008
From: leekaiwen at yahoo.com (Lee Kaiwen)
Date: Sun, 04 May 2008 12:45:05 +0800
Subject: Bible as fiction (was Re:  Re: Favorite books: (Was: New poll for
 HPFGU-OTChatter))
In-Reply-To: <fvecos+mqal@eGroups.com>
References: <fvecos+mqal@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <481D3F51.6020105@yahoo.com>

Geoff Bannister On 02/05/2008 14:36:

> (a) The Bible is not written as fiction.

I don't believe Carol was suggesting reading it as fiction, but rather 
as a cultural primer; after all, the biblical stories are some of the 
deepest and most fundamental cultural referents in Western civilization. 
Of course, the Bible has deeply influenced other areas as well -- from 
our legal systems to (some argue) being the catalyst for the birth of 
modern science.

The problem with calling the Bible "fiction" is that fiction is a 
relatively modern literary concept, tied to an age in which literal 
truth and objective history are considered valuable ends in themselves. 
But the biblical stories were passed down ('traductio', hence the modern 
word 'tradition'; cf. Math. 15.2, or 2nd Thess 3.6, where the same word 
is sometimes rendered "teaching") not out of any sense of obligation to 
literal truth, but as mythologies. They were dramatic encapsulations 
designed to teach and preserve cultural and religious -- not literal 
historical -- truths and values. That's not to say the biblical authors 
disbelieved (or that we must disbelieve) in, say, the literal existence 
of Adam and Eve; it's just to say that literal historical truth, even if 
(when) preserved in the biblical stories, was, at best, secondary to 
their pedagogical purpose.

We can see this even in the gospel records. Of all the teachings and 
stories about Christ ("which I suppose if written, the whole world could 
not contain the volumes") early Christians could have preserved, the 
stories they did pass down were chosen for their pedagogical, not 
literal historical, value. One can see this even in the form in which 
the stories were preserved -- as pericopae each with a moral or 
spiritual point. Again, that's not to say they don't also preserve 
objective historical fact, but simply to say that any reading that 
insists on reading them first and foremost *as* objective history -- or 
worse elevates belief in their literalness into a theological 
shiibboleth -- misunderstands their nature and purpose. A bit like 
accusing me of disbelieving in George Washington just because I deny the 
literal truth of the cherry tree story. But literal historicity isn't 
even the *point* of the story; it's a pedagogical pericope for teaching 
honesty, not historical fact. Even if it *were* literally true, its 
literal truth would be irrelevant.

> (b) It /is/ written as a primer of life as it should be lived.

Exactly.

CJ




From leekaiwen at yahoo.com  Sun May  4 04:45:17 2008
From: leekaiwen at yahoo.com (Lee Kaiwen)
Date: Sun, 04 May 2008 12:45:17 +0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Favorite books: (Was: New poll for HPFGU-OTChatter)
In-Reply-To: <fve138+3s19@eGroups.com>
References: <fve138+3s19@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <481D3F5D.3080708@yahoo.com>

kempermentor On 02/05/2008 11:16:

> ... I guess I'm more pissed at me for being duped ...

I waited for the paperback. I *knew* it was going to be bad going in (as 
I hinted in a previous post, the very title screams "historical 
ignoramus!" Leonardo is no more "DaVinci" than St. Joan's father is "Mr. 
Of Arc"), so I wasn't disappointed. I read it just to see what all the 
talk was about.

"Predictable"? You're way took kind. I had most of the "mysteries" 
figured out chapters before the protagonist, and spent the bulk of the 
book waiting for the blockhead to realize the obvious. The star-shaped 
key? First time Brown described it I said (out loud, IIRC), "It's a 
key," then had to endure the good guys hauling it around through 
three-quarters of the book before they finally figured it out.

Characterization was paint-by-number -- lessee, handsome protagonist? 
Beautiful girl? Check and check. Character back-stories with sex, murder 
and mystery? Got 'em. Brown's attempts at giving Sophie (and c'mon -- 
"Sophie"? How cliched can you get?) pyschological depth were juvenile at 
best. These were some of the flattest, most uninteresting characters I'd 
ever encountered.

And the acting was horrible, like watching a high school play. NOBODY 
(except Teabing, obviously) "staggers (or was it 'reels'?) back" in 
shock, even when they do encounter a mysterious albino lurking around 
their patio doors at night.

And the premise of a single living descendant of Christ insulted the 
genealogist in me. Recent mathematical modeling on population dispersion 
demonstrates that bloodlines diffuse quite rapidly, and it is a 
mathematical near-certainty that *every* European born before the year 
800 is an ancestor of *every* European alive today. Meaning the Priory 
of Scion better have a taste for genocide if they're serious about 
eliminating Jesus' descendants. And save the last bullet for themselves.

But reading DC did have one positive benefit: it reaffirmed my life 
principle of avoiding anything on trade best seller lists. (OK, Mitch 
Albom is the exception).

CJ




From gav_fiji at yahoo.com  Sun May  4 09:41:57 2008
From: gav_fiji at yahoo.com (Goddlefrood)
Date: Sun, 04 May 2008 09:41:57 -0000
Subject: Book recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <307717.24248.qm@web90306.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <fvk0d5+3es4@eGroups.com>

> Kemper:
> if the English can suggest someone other than Shakespeare that 
> would be super.

Goddlefrood:

Just who was this Shakespeare character anyway? Answers of 
thesis length only, off list ;-)

My personal favourites of what you describe as old would be:

1. Anything in prose by Thomas Hardy, plus The Dynasts in 
poetry.

2. Woman in White by Wilkie Collins.

3. Any of the Waverley novels of Sir Walter Scott.

For new:

1. The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy series, although Mostly 
Harmless is not the greatest ending to a great series (oddly 
enough a little like the way I feel about HP).

2. London Fields by Martin Amis.

3. Great Apes by Will Self.

Influential:

1. Leviathan by Thomas Hobbes.

2. Look Back in Anger by John Osbourne.

3. Any Holmes book or short story collection by Conan Doyle.

In respect of Leviathan, I wouldn't recommend that you actually 
read it unless you've got a lot of time on your hands and really 
want to know why human life in its natural state without controls 
would be nasty, brutish and short in Hobbes' view.

Goddlefrood, with an extremely small selection.




From n2fgc at arrl.net  Sun May  4 11:22:48 2008
From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Lee Storm(God Is The Healing Force))
Date: Sun, 04 May 2008 07:22:48 -0400
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Book recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <fvk0d5+3es4@eGroups.com>
References: <307717.24248.qm@web90306.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
 <fvk0d5+3es4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000001c8add9$2f0ba560$67a4a8c0@FRODO>

| Goddlefrood:
| 2. Woman in White by Wilkie Collins.

[Lee]:
For a heartbeat, there, I swore you were gonna say "Wilkie Twycross!" <BEG>

Lee (Amazed that the Narnia books never made the polls.)

Do not walk behind me,    | Lee Storm
I may not care to lead;   | N2FGC
Do not walk before me,    | n2fgc at arrl.net (or)
I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at optonline.net
Walk beside me, and be my friend.





From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sun May  4 15:15:03 2008
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sun, 04 May 2008 15:15:03 -0000
Subject: Book recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <000001c8add9$2f0ba560$67a4a8c0@FRODO>
Message-ID: <fvkjtn+m948@eGroups.com>

> | Goddlefrood:
> | 2. Woman in White by Wilkie Collins.
> 
> [Lee]:
> For a heartbeat, there, I swore you were gonna say "Wilkie 
Twycross!" <BEG>
> 
> Lee (Amazed that the Narnia books never made the polls.)

Alla:

I love Woman in white myself. Heeee, I am very pleased that Narnia 
books never made the polls. Somebody summed up how I feel about 
Narnia Books pretty well - yes, Aslan is Jesus, I get it, I really 
really get it.

Cannot stand being beaten over the head with the basebal bat with 
simple allegory for seven books. Okay, I did not read seven books. 
But I read Witch, Caspian, Magician and Horse and her boy and looked 
at the end of the Last battle, so I believe I read more than enough 
to form my opinion.

I did like the movie though, acting was good IMO and imagery beatiful.

Tolkien used christian themes with great subtlety IMO - LOVE. Lewis - 
cannot stand, just cannot stand.

Strictly my opinion of course.




From s_ings at yahoo.com  Sun May  4 15:16:53 2008
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Sun, 04 May 2008 15:16:53 -0000
Subject: Calling all fanfic authors!
Message-ID: <fvkk15+cjsc@eGroups.com>

Are you a fanfic author looking for a new forum for your story? Come 
and read to a captive audience! Convention Alley 2008 will be hosting 
an afternoon of fanfic reading and would like your work to be part of 
our event.

Do you have a story to share and aren't able to attend? You can 
designate someone else to read for you. Or you can ask us to find a 
reader for you. Yes, we'll even supply the reader if you give us 
permission to read the fic in your absence! 

To sign up for reading your fic, to designate another attendee as your 
reader, or to request a reader for your story, please send us an email 
to convention_alley at yahoo.ca

Sheryll Townsend
http://www.conventionalley2008.org/




From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Sun May  4 15:27:17 2008
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Sun, 04 May 2008 15:27:17 -0000
Subject: Book recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <fvkjtn+m948@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fvkkkl+s6ee@eGroups.com>

> > | Goddlefrood:
> > | 2. Woman in White by Wilkie Collins.
> > 
> > [Lee]:
> > For a heartbeat, there, I swore you were gonna say "Wilkie 
> Twycross!" <BEG>
> > 
> > Lee (Amazed that the Narnia books never made the polls.)
> 
> Alla:
> 
> I love Woman in white myself. 

Magpie:
Maybe I should try that one again. I didn't like WoW. I loved The 
Moonstone and No Name, but the characters in WoW bugged me.

=m




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sun May  4 15:34:10 2008
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sun, 04 May 2008 15:34:10 -0000
Subject: Book recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <fvkkkl+s6ee@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fvkl1i+vhn7@eGroups.com>

> Magpie:
> Maybe I should try that one again. I didn't like WoW. I loved The 
> Moonstone and No Name, but the characters in WoW bugged me.
> 
> =m
>


Alla:

I read them both and loved them both, Moonstone as well, but it was 
looong time ago, so I do not quite remember if characters bugged me, 
maybe some of them did.




From HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com  Sun May  4 15:44:38 2008
From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com (HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 4 May 2008 15:44:38 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 5/4/2008, 11:00 am 
Message-ID: <1209915878.10.36942.m57@yahoogroups.com>

Reminder from: HPFGU-OTChatter Yahoo! Group
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/cal

Weekly Chat
Sunday May 4, 2008
11:00 am - 12:00 pm
(This event repeats every week.)
Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Notes:
Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour.

To get to the HPfGU room follow this link:
http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want
to be called.

Enter the password: hpfguchat

Click "Join Chat" on the lower right.

Chat start times:
11 am Pacific US
12 noon Mountain US
1 pm Central US
2 pm Eastern US
7 pm UK



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From HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com  Sun May  4 17:40:43 2008
From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com (HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 4 May 2008 17:40:43 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 5/4/2008, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1209922843.10.23094.m52@yahoogroups.com>

Reminder from: HPFGU-OTChatter Yahoo! Group
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/cal

Weekly Chat
Sunday May 4, 2008
1:00 pm - 1:00 pm
(This event repeats every week.)
Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Notes:
Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour.

To get to the HPfGU room follow this link:
http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want
to be called.

Enter the password: hpfguchat

Click "Join Chat" on the lower right.

Chat start times:
11 am Pacific US
12 noon Mountain US
1 pm Central US
2 pm Eastern US
7 pm UK




All Rights Reserved
 Copyright  2008 
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From catlady at wicca.net  Sun May  4 18:15:55 2008
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Sun, 04 May 2008 18:15:55 -0000
Subject: The same language with different words / those shirts / euthanasia
Message-ID: <fvkugr+hnu5@eGroups.com>

Carol wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/36269>:

<< I was about seven or eight and encountered the word "bureau" in a
novel I was reading, so I asked my mother what "burroo" meant. >>

Not ignoring your funny anecdote, but reminded that when I was about
that age, my mother told me of a story resembling 'Pigs is Pigs' but
much less famous, about a man who ordered a burro shipped by train.
When he went to pick it up, the train agent apologized for having lost
his furniture and couldn't understand why this jackass wasn't on the
manifest.

<< arcadia doors >>

??????????

Geoff wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/36271>:

<< <exits stage left muttering lift/elevator, bonnet/hood,
sweater/jumper, dustbin/trash can trainers/sneakers until voice fades
in the distance> >>

Which lanes on a road are the 'inside' lanes?

Geoff wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/36307>:

<< Sometimes also called a singlet if it's the sleeveless type such as
runners wear. >>

Singlet! That's the word Carol is looking for! It is an uncommon word
in USA and always strikes me as a quaint Britishism, and as crying out
for some kind of pun with 'doublet'.

Geoff wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/36311>:

<< Although they're not really part of the scene nowadays they did
come back into fashion for a while some years ago for a while and were
referred to as... tank tops. >>

I seem to recall we had this thread a few years ago when Percy was
stated to be wearing a woolen tank top. I think that must have been
GoF, as after that, Percy was off-stage until the just before the end.

Kemper wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/36323>:

<< (The bagginess was a style that, I think, was originally a look
that came from hand-me-down pants from big brothers to little
brothers.) >>

Too-big jeans with no belt was a style that originally came from
uniforms issued to inmates at California Youth Authority prisons.
Belts are not allowed because they can be used as weapons. But long,
long ago I read an opinion piece by a fashion historian (no idea if
she was any good at it) making a comparison to zoot suits and saying
that clothing styles that consume lots of fabric are a sign of
individual optimism in an economically prosperous time...

Carol wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/36363>:

<< I'd never heard the term "A-shirt" till we started this discussion.
At least, unlike "wifebeater," it's in the dictionary! >>

I'd never heard the term "A-shirt" before either. The only on-line
dictionary that <http://www.onelook.com/> found for it was Wikipedia,
which did not give an etymology. T-shirts are named from their shape,
but A-shirts don't strike me as looking like the letter A.

Alex wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/36393>:

<< "Put to sleep" is a ridiculous term meant to make it "OK" to kill
animals. They just go to sleep. Yeah, right. They are killed. Rather
nastily. Go to your local pound if you do not know what goes on there. >>

Talking about the vet's office, not the pound. Obi, Sasha, Nan, and
Pixy were euthanized. Fancy and Cinnamon died at home. I was with each
of them when they died.






From specialcritters at hotmail.com  Sun May  4 18:22:15 2008
From: specialcritters at hotmail.com (Lee Truslow)
Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 14:22:15 -0400
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] re: The same language with different words /
 those shirts / euthanasia
In-Reply-To: <fvkugr+hnu5@eGroups.com>
References: <fvkugr+hnu5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <BAY138-W344C91050F1670D042C41BB2D40@phx.gbl>


My grandfather always said that the "A" in "A-shirt" stood for "athletic." 


To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.comFrom: catlady at wicca.netDate: Sun, 4 May 2008 18:15:55 +0000Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] re: The same language with different words / those shirts / euthanasia




Carol wrote in<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/36269>:<< I was about seven or eight and encountered the word "bureau" in anovel I was reading, so I asked my mother what "burroo" meant. >>Not ignoring your funny anecdote, but reminded that when I was aboutthat age, my mother told me of a story resembling 'Pigs is Pigs' butmuch less famous, about a man who ordered a burro shipped by train.When he went to pick it up, the train agent apologized for having losthis furniture and couldn't understand why this jackass wasn't on themanifest.<< arcadia doors >>??????????Geoff wrote in<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/36271>:<< <exits stage left muttering lift/elevator, bonnet/hood,sweater/jumper, dustbin/trash can trainers/sneakers until voice fadesin the distance> >>Which lanes on a road are the 'inside' lanes?Geoff wrote in<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/36307>:<< Sometimes also called a singlet if it's the sleeveless type such asrunners wear. >>Singlet! That's the word Carol is looking for! It is an uncommon wordin USA and always strikes me as a quaint Britishism, and as crying outfor some kind of pun with 'doublet'.Geoff wrote in<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/36311>:<< Although they're not really part of the scene nowadays they didcome back into fashion for a while some years ago for a while and werereferred to as... tank tops. >>I seem to recall we had this thread a few years ago when Percy wasstated to be wearing a woolen tank top. I think that must have beenGoF, as after that, Percy was off-stage until the just before the end.Kemper wrote in<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/36323>:<< (The bagginess was a style that, I think, was originally a lookthat came from hand-me-down pants from big brothers to littlebrothers.) >>Too-big jeans with no belt was a style that originally came fromuniforms issued to inmates at California Youth Authority prisons.Belts are not allowed because they can be used as weapons. But long,long ago I read an opinion piece by a fashion historian (no idea ifshe was any good at it) making a comparison to zoot suits and sayingthat clothing styles that consume lots of fabric are a sign ofindividual optimism in an economically prosperous time...Carol wrote in<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/36363>:<< I'd never heard the term "A-shirt" till we started this discussion.At least, unlike "wifebeater," it's in the dictionary! >>I'd never heard the term "A-shirt" before either. The only on-linedictionary that <http://www.onelook.com/> found for it was Wikipedia,which did not give an etymology. T-shirts are named from their shape,but A-shirts don't strike me as looking like the letter A.Alex wrote in<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/36393>:<< "Put to sleep" is a ridiculous term meant to make it "OK" to killanimals. They just go to sleep. Yeah, right. They are killed. Rathernastily. Go to your local pound if you do not know what goes on there. >>Talking about the vet's office, not the pound. Obi, Sasha, Nan, andPixy were euthanized. Fancy and Cinnamon died at home. I was with eachof them when they died. 






_________________________________________________________________
With Windows Live for mobile, your contacts travel with you.
http://www.windowslive.com/mobile/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_mobile_052008

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Sun May  4 22:19:35 2008
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Sun, 04 May 2008 22:19:35 -0000
Subject: The same language with different words / those shirts / euthanasia
In-Reply-To: <fvkugr+hnu5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fvlcpn+3hjq@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" <catlady at ...> 
wrote:

> Geoff (then):
 > << <exits stage left muttering lift/elevator, bonnet/hood,
> sweater/jumper, dustbin/trash can trainers/sneakers until voice fades
> in the distance> >>

Catlady:
> Which lanes on a road are the 'inside' lanes?

Geoff (now):
The nearside lanes. In other words, in the UK, the left hand lane of a 
three lane road or dual carriageway; the right hand side in countries 
who, just to be different <g>, drive on the right.

Though I fail to see how that question arises from my post.....

Geoff (then): 
> << Sometimes also called a singlet if it's the sleeveless type such as
> runners wear. >>

Catlady:
> Singlet! That's the word Carol is looking for! It is an uncommon word
> in USA and always strikes me as a quaint Britishism, and as crying out
> for some kind of pun with 'doublet'.

Geoff (now):
But doublets exist. They were a close-fitting jacket worn by men between
the 15th and 17th centuries. You have possibly heard of 'doublet and hose'?




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sun May  4 23:02:43 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Sun, 04 May 2008 23:02:43 -0000
Subject: Book recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <fvk0d5+3es4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fvlfaj+rstp@eGroups.com>

Goddlefrood:
> 
> Just who was this Shakespeare character anyway? Answers of 
> thesis length only, off list ;-)

Carol responds:

If we're recommending fiction, we could exclude his writing on the
grounds that it's drama (including several subgenres) and poetry,
right? Really, though, if you want to be culturally literate and your
native language is English, it's really a good idea (and often quite
pleasurable) to read Shakespeare's plays. Not all of them,
necessarily, but the ones that are frequently anthologized. They've
remained popular for roughly four hundred years for good reason.

Goddlefrood: 
> My personal favourites of what you describe as old would be:
> 
> 1. Anything in prose by Thomas Hardy, plus The Dynasts in 
> poetry. <snip>

Carol responds:
Hardy was undoubtedly brilliant, but his writing can be disturbing. I
do recommend "Tess of the D'urbervilles," but don't read "Jude the
Obscure" unless you're prepared for one of the most shocking scenes in
literature. (The movie "Jude" contains that same shocking scene. I'd
read the book; I knew it was coming, and, yet, I could scarcely bear it.)

My own recommendation for Kemper is to read the literary classics, at
least those written within the last few hundred years.

American lit:

"Huckleberry Finn," "Moby Dick," maybe some Hawthorne (especially if
you have an interest in the Salem witch trials and Puritan culture
(Hawthorne was descended from one of the judges; his ancestor may have
had a hand in condemning my "witch" ancestor to death).

BTW, I don't see anyone recommending nonfiction books, and I'm afraid
that my tastes (history, language, and paleoanthropology) wouldn't
match anyone else's, but while I'm suggesting classics, I should
mention that American culture (and possibly British culture as well)
seems to be suffering from the failure to appreciate great poetry. I
would at least sample the great English poets of the Renaissance and
the Romantic and Victorian eras.

I don't mean long works (I'd never inflict Spenser's "The Faerie
Queene" on anyone), but Shakespeare's sonnets; a sprinkling of
Herrick, Donne, and Marvell; and then (skipping most of the IMO
unpoetic eighteenth century) a dose of the Romantics, especially
Coleridge's "Rime of the Ancient Mariner" and "Kubla Khan" and the
lyrics of Shelley (at least "Ozymandias" and "Ode to the West Wind")
and Keats ("at least "Ode to a Nightingale" and "Ode on a Grecian
Urn"). Of the twentieth-century poets, the one I'd be most likely to
recommend is Hart Crane (specifically "North Labrador"), though tastes
vary, of course. And don't ask me about anyone born after about 1920.
I may have read their poetry, but it didn't stick in my head the way
the older poetry did.

Carol, desperately hoping that these treasures aren't lost to future
generations





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sun May  4 23:25:02 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Sun, 04 May 2008 23:25:02 -0000
Subject: The same language with different words / those shirts / euthanasia
In-Reply-To: <fvkugr+hnu5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fvlgke+3cdm@eGroups.com>

Catlady, quoting my post:
> << arcadia doors >>
> 
> ??????????

Carol:
Slliding glass double doors that generally open onto a patio or
balcony. Unlike French doors, they don't have little square panes but
are one solid sheet of glass in a metal frame. They slide in exactly
the same way as the doors of most American clothes closets.

CatladY: 
> Singlet! That's the word Carol is looking for! It is an uncommon
word in USA and always strikes me as a quaint Britishism, and as
crying out for some kind of pun with 'doublet'.

Carol:
Well, actually, I considered "singlet," but, IMO, it's too
old-fashioned and too British to work for this particular manuscript.
if my young client has heard the term at all, she probably associates
it with the uniform of a high school wrestler. I think that "tank
(top)," "muscle shirt" (or "muscle T," though it's an A-shirt), and
possibly "undershirt" and "A-shirt" are the most workable
alternatives.) She'll probably end up rejecting them all and going
with "wifebeater," but a least I tried, and I appreciate everyone's
contributions to the discussion.

Catlady:
> I seem to recall we had this thread a few years ago when Percy was
> stated to be wearing a woolen tank top. I think that must have been
> GoF, as after that, Percy was off-stage until the just before the end.
>

Carol:
Film!Percy, do you mean? I don't remember the discussion at all. 

Catlady:
> I'd never heard the term "A-shirt" before either. The only on-line
dictionary that <http://www.onelook.com/> found for it was Wikipedia,
which did not give an etymology. T-shirts are named from their shape,
but A-shirts don't strike me as looking like the letter A.

Carol:
I had the same reaction. T-shirts and A-shirts made me think of Model
T's and Model A's. I've never understood the reasoning there, either.

Carol, who could have sworn that "A-shirt" was listed in
Merriam-Webster Online but tried it again and got such helpful
suggestions as "eye chart," "estuary," and "usherette"!




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sun May  4 23:37:03 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Sun, 04 May 2008 23:37:03 -0000
Subject: The same language with different words / those shirts / euthanasia
In-Reply-To: <fvlcpn+3hjq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fvlhav+3mgi@eGroups.com>

Geoff wrote:
> The nearside lanes. In other words, in the UK, the left hand lane of
a three lane road or dual carriageway; the right hand side in
countries who, just to be different <g>, drive on the right.

Carol:
Now I'm confused, because I could have sworn that in the U.S., where
we drive on the right-hand side of the road, the "inside lane" would
be the one nearest to facing traffic, IOW, the left-hand lane, and
farthest from the shoulder or sidewalk, which abuts the right-hand
lane (or, sometimes, the right-turn lane).

In any case, I've always felt sure that young drivers would find it
less confusing for the right (right-hand) side to be the right
(correct) side and the left side to be wrong than for left to be right
and right to be wrong. Right?

Carol, noting that the western U.S., at least, doesn't have any
"carriageways" that I know of, only "highways" (borrowed, I think from
British English) and "freeways" (as opposed to toll roads, which are,
I think, mostly an Eastern phenomenon)




From gav_fiji at yahoo.com  Mon May  5 00:02:35 2008
From: gav_fiji at yahoo.com (Goddlefrood)
Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 00:02:35 -0000
Subject: Book recommendations? / Vests /
In-Reply-To: <fvlfaj+rstp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fvliqr+5049@eGroups.com>

> Carol responds:
 
> If we're recommending fiction, we could exclude his writing on 
> the grounds that it's drama (including several subgenres) and 
> poetry, right? 

Goddlefrood:

I'm familiar with the bard's works having performed a good number 
of them in my youth and produced a few too. Kemper had excluded 
Shakespeare because he would be the overly obvious choice from 
an American perspective presumably. Look Back in Ager, which I 
recommended as an iunfluential work is a play, btw.

> Carol responds:
> Hardy was undoubtedly brilliant, but his writing can be 
> disturbing. 

Goddlefrood:

Agreed, Tess itself is quite disturbing I'd say. Hardy can also 
be a little depressing at times. It's extraordinary writing, 
nevertheless.


> Carol:
> BTW, I don't see anyone recommending nonfiction books, and I'm 
> afraidn that my tastes (history, language, and paleoanthropology) 

Goddlefrood:

Leviathan would be fiction then ? ;-)

If you want good historical recommendations, here's a brief 
selection from my recent reading:

(i) White Gold by Giles Milton. A fascinating account of one 
white slave in particular and the white slave trade in general. 
Here's an excellent portrayal of the Barbary Corsairs and their 
trade in white slaves during the course of the mid 17th century 
until the destruction of Algiers in the early 19th century. Of 
Milton's other works I would recommend Nathaniel's Nutmeg and 
Samurai William. I wasn't so struck on Big Chief Elizabeth and 
really didn't like The Riddle and the Knight, although both 
have some interest, the former particularly to those in the 
US I should say.

(ii) Salamis by Barry Strauss. All you ever wanted to know, 
and perhaps a lot you didn't want to know, about the Battle 
of Salamis, its forerunning and aftermath.

(iii) The Bounty by Caroline Alexander. The famous mutiny and 
surrounding events. Bligh is not villified as he usually is in 
this work. The obvious reason for the mutiny was that the South 
Seas held a fascination for the crew members who mutinied, 
something I could have told anyone who was interested a very 
long time ago.

(iv) My tendecy is towards ancient authors, so I have also read 
or reread Appian, Arrian, Herodotus, Thucydides, Plutarch and 
other of the usual suspects, all of which I would recommend.

> Carol:
> Of the twentieth-century poets, the one I'd be most likely to
> recommend is Hart Crane (specifically "North Labrador"), though 
> tastes vary, of course. And don't ask me about anyone born after 
> about 1920.

Goddlefrood:

Here's the very reason that poetry is out of fashion, that is 
that more recent poetry is not terribly good and instantly 
forgettable.

> Carol:
> Well, actually, I considered "singlet," but, IMO, it's too
> old-fashioned and too British to work for this particular 
> manuscript.

Goddlefrood:

FYI, as far as I'm concerned singlet is more an Australian term 
than a British one. What has been described I would call simply 
a vest.




From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Mon May  5 00:20:37 2008
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 00:20:37 -0000
Subject: The same language with different words / those shirts / euthanasia
In-Reply-To: <fvlgke+3cdm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fvljsl+omvl@eGroups.com>

> Catlady:
> > I seem to recall we had this thread a few years ago when Percy was
> > stated to be wearing a woolen tank top. I think that must have been
> > GoF, as after that, Percy was off-stage until the just before the 
end.
> >
> 
> Carol:
> Film!Percy, do you mean? I don't remember the discussion at all.

Magpie:
I forget which book it's in--either GoF or CoS--but it's in the book. 
It's probably in GoF. I don't remember if it's woolen or knitted, but I 
was surprised by it.

-m




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Mon May  5 00:32:20 2008
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 00:32:20 -0000
Subject: Book recommendations? / Vests /
In-Reply-To: <fvliqr+5049@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fvlkik+v22r@eGroups.com>

> Goddlefrood:

> 
> (ii) Salamis by Barry Strauss. All you ever wanted to know, 
> and perhaps a lot you didn't want to know, about the Battle 
> of Salamis, its forerunning and aftermath.

Alla:

I have only read Trojan war and liked it fine, but will definitely 
put Salamis on my reading list. Boy it is getting longer and longer :)

 
> (iv) My tendecy is towards ancient authors, so I have also read 
> or reread Appian, Arrian, Herodotus, Thucydides, Plutarch and 
> other of the usual suspects, all of which I would recommend.
> 
>
Alla:

Oh yeah, as our history professor used to say, go to the sources, 
just go to the sources :)




From kempermentor at yahoo.com  Mon May  5 00:44:34 2008
From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kempermentor)
Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 00:44:34 -0000
Subject: Book recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <fvlfaj+rstp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fvll9i+t0mg@eGroups.com>

> Goddlefrood:
> > Just who was this Shakespeare character anyway? 
 
> Carol responds:
> If we're recommending fiction, we could exclude his writing on the
> grounds that it's drama (including several subgenres) and poetry,
> right? 

Kemper now:
I guess I'm asking for writings (poetry, plays and prose).
That said, for American playwrights I would recommend August Wilson's
'The Piano Lesson'.  It is one of the most powerful plays I've ever
experienced. 

Again... I notice that slavery (or its aftermath) are part of what I
find enriching.  Hmm... I don't look for it.  What is it that draws me
to those themes?  Maybe it's the writing?  I don't know.

> Carol:
> Really, though, if you want to be culturally literate and your
> native language is English, it's really a good idea (and often quite
> pleasurable) to read Shakespeare's plays. 

Kemper now:
I'm not asking to be more culturally literate in the American sense. 
I'm looking for English writing from Canadians, Australians, New
Landers, etc.  I'm looking to understand other English speaking
cultures through their writings.
 
> Carol responds:
> My own recommendation for Kemper is to read the literary classics, 
> at least those written within the last few hundred years. ...

Kemper now:
I've read all the America classics you've suggested.  Hawthorne's
'Young Goodman Brown' is one of my all time favs though I could live
without ever having to read the Scarlet Letter again.

I've only read the odes.  I think I read a short story by Shelley but
for the life of me can't think of what it was.  Maybe it was an essay?

But again... I'm asking what writings English speaking, non-Americans
would recommend to further understand a bit of their country.

> Carol: 
> And don't ask me about [poets] born after about 1920.

Kemper now:
I like Billy Collins.  I know he's easy but still... guilty pleasure.

Kemper





From alexisnguyen at gmail.com  Mon May  5 03:52:33 2008
From: alexisnguyen at gmail.com (P. Alexis Nguyen)
Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 23:52:33 -0400
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Book recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <fvlfaj+rstp@eGroups.com>
References: <fvk0d5+3es4@eGroups.com> <fvlfaj+rstp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b6e131bf0805042052k5ffe8f38kb05d5debcad6bb86@mail.gmail.com>

Carol:
>  Of the twentieth-century poets, the one I'd be most likely to
>  recommend is Hart Crane (specifically "North Labrador"), though tastes
>  vary, of course. And don't ask me about anyone born after about 1920.
>  I may have read their poetry, but it didn't stick in my head the way
>  the older poetry did.

I also tend toward the older stuff, but here are some post-1920 to
append to Carol's great list (all of which I've either read or have on
my to-read list, though I admit to not liking the majority of the
older American lit stuff).

Not being much of a fan of modern writings (or, I suppose, a
modernist), I would recommend Frank O'Hara (poet).  He's quite good,
very accessible without being insipid.  He's especially enjoyable and
accessible if you're familiar with New York City since that's his
major point of reference.

Snow Crash by Neal Stephenson is another book I'd recommend.  Like I
said, I'm not much for modernism, so this isn't quite my cup of tea
nor could I get into it as much as I would've liked, but it's pretty
good.

The Autobiography of My Mother by Jamaica Kincaid is very touching
without being saccharin.  In fact, I had occasion to meet this woman
last year, and her spirit and energy was very amazing.  Let's just say
that her narrative voice led me to believe she was much younger than
she is (and no, it had absolutely nothing to do with word choices and
phrasing but all to do with the vitality she managed to bring to her
story, of which Autobiography was both depressing and uplifting).

John McPhee is another poet I'd add to the list.  Again, another poet
with a wonderful voice (a little subdued in person, I'd say).

Truth & Lies by Jillian Edelstein is very touching/depressing.  It
look very much like a photo/coffee table book, but I wouldn't put it
there unless I wanted to give my guests depression since the subtitle
for Truth & Lies is "stories from the truth and reconciliation of
commission in South Africa."

For something truly current, I recommend Neil Gaiman.  Unlike people
like Frank O'Hara or Jamaica Kincaid, both of whom have respect within
literary circles, Gaiman is completely underrated there (probably
because of his status as a scifi/fantasy author).  He's best known for
Sandman, which is entirely brilliant but shall languish in relative
obscurity thanks to the fact that it's a graphic novel, but the man
also has some truly great novels under his belt (but, um, let's ignore
that whole Beowulf movie fiasco).

And if I'm going to bring up the medium of the graphic novel (and
ignore the brilliance of the Japanese), I would also have to recommend
the Fables series by Bill Willingham.  It's a modernized continuation
of the old fairy tales, and it's definitely not for kids, which
doesn't make it crude but does make the topics addressed more suitable
for adults (not that I really am one).

If you're into translations, Soul Mountain by Gao Xingjian (Mabel Lee
translation), winner of a Nobel for literature, is absolutely
brilliant.  It's written in second person, which can be grating for
long durations but manages to somehow not be in this ~500 pgs novel.
And I would have to also recommend Kim Van Kieu (also called The Story
of Kieu in translations) since there are some really good translations
out there that do justice to the beauty of the original writing -
since Kemper mentioned slavery, I thought of this book, which is
essentially the unofficial novel of the Vietnamese people and is about
this woman who endures incredible hardships, much of it involving
forced prostitution (in which the absolutely beauty of the language is
a stark contrast to the very ugly reality this woman lives through).
Yes, I know these aren't originally English writings, but I thought
I'd throw them out there for the interested (and besides, I think
translators deserve some love, too).

That's a good chunk of the "literary side" of my library; if I look
too much farther, I'll run into the hundred or so romance novels I
own, and I'm sure you don't want those recommendations. :)

~Ali



From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Mon May  5 04:00:42 2008
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 04:00:42 -0000
Subject: Book recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <b6e131bf0805042052k5ffe8f38kb05d5debcad6bb86@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <fvm0pa+1r3m@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "P. Alexis Nguyen" 
<alexisnguyen at ...> wrote:
<SNIP>
For something truly current, I recommend Neil Gaiman. Unlike people
like Frank O'Hara or Jamaica Kincaid, both of whom have respect within
literary circles, Gaiman is completely underrated there (probably
because of his status as a scifi/fantasy author). He's best known for
Sandman, which is entirely brilliant but shall languish in relative
obscurity thanks to the fact that it's a graphic novel, but the man
also has some truly great novels under his belt (but, um, let's ignore
that whole Beowulf movie fiasco).
<SNIP>


Alla:

Oh I so second Gaiman's novels recommendations, all of them in fact. 
Funnily though I did not read Sandman. 

And yes Beowulf LALALALALALAL what Beowulf. It never happened, am 
telling you never happened.


I of course also recommend my beloved Guy Gavriel Kay, but I won't 
bore anybody with my beloved Arbonne, I will instead recommend 
dulogy "Sarantine Mosaic".

It is historical fiction, even though it is still called fantasy, I 
guess for that tiny amount of magic, which is there as we recently 
deciphered only to make a point, a parallel to main storyline. It is 
such subtle storytelling, the characters are so very multilayered, 
that I rarely see such great character based writing in some authors, 
who are supposedly write "realistic" fiction.





From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Mon May  5 08:19:14 2008
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 08:19:14 -0000
Subject: The same language with different words / those shirts / euthanasia
In-Reply-To: <fvlhav+3mgi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fvmfu2+f283@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:
>
> Geoff wrote:
> > The nearside lanes. In other words, in the UK, the left hand lane of
> a three lane road or dual carriageway; the right hand side in
> countries who, just to be different <g>, drive on the right.
> 
> Carol:
> Now I'm confused, because I could have sworn that in the U.S., where
> we drive on the right-hand side of the road, the "inside lane" would
> be the one nearest to facing traffic, IOW, the left-hand lane, and
> farthest from the shoulder or sidewalk, which abuts the right-hand
> lane (or, sometimes, the right-turn lane).

Geoff:
Don't be confused; it's Just different usage. In Europe, the inside lane is 
the one nearest to the edge of the road, because slower vehicles are 
"inside" the overtaking traffic.

Carol:
> In any case, I've always felt sure that young drivers would find it
> less confusing for the right (right-hand) side to be the right
> (correct) side and the left side to be wrong than for left to be right
> and right to be wrong. Right?

Geoff:
You need to mirror inage that for the UK . We are taught that the left 
hand side (nearer the  pavement if there is one or the hard shoulder 
on a motorway) is the one to stay in unless you are overtaking.

> Carol, noting that the western U.S., at least, doesn't have any
> "carriageways" that I know of, only "highways" (borrowed, I think from
> British English) and "freeways" (as opposed to toll roads, which are,
> I think, mostly an Eastern phenomenon)

Geoff:
We don't usually talk about highways except in the context of the 
HIghway Code or the Highways Agency (the national roads authority).

We talk about roads in general, or A-class or B-class roads or 
motorways (the equivalent of US freeways. 

Carriageway is always used in the sense of a dual carriageway - which 
I /think/ would be a divided highway in the US. For example you will 
hear us talking about a six-lane motorway which means  three lanes 
each way. Our widest are motorways such as the M25 London Orbital 
which is eight lanes over much of its length.






From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon May  5 14:06:52 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 14:06:52 -0000
Subject: Book recommendations? / Vests /
In-Reply-To: <fvliqr+5049@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fvn49s+mt2m@eGroups.com>

Carol responds:
>  
> > If we're recommending fiction, we could exclude his writing on 
the grounds that it's drama (including several subgenres) and  poetry,
right? 
> 
> Goddlefrood:
> 
> I'm familiar with the bard's works having performed a good number 
> of them in my youth and produced a few too. Kemper had excluded 
> Shakespeare because he would be the overly obvious choice from 
> an American perspective presumably. <snip>

Carol responds:

Sorry. I was providing a facetious reason for excluding Shakespeare
from the reading list (it's not fiction; it's drama and/or poetry).

In case it wasn't clear, I think that everyone, especially those from
English-speaking countries, should be familiar with Shakespeare, both
in written form and (for the plays) in performance.

BTW, I watched "Driving Lessons" this weekend and was surprised to
find it full of Shakespeare quotations. I need to watch it again with
subtitles, though, to catch them all.

Carol, realizing on rereading that the joke wasn't obvious and
required a "wink"




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon May  5 14:33:05 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 14:33:05 -0000
Subject: Book recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <fvll9i+t0mg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fvn5r1+ocdt@eGroups.com>

Carol earlier:
> > Really, though, if you want to be culturally literate and your
native language is English, it's really a good idea (and often quite
pleasurable) to read Shakespeare's plays. 
> 
> Kemper now:
> I'm not asking to be more culturally literate in the American sense.
I'm looking for English writing from Canadians, Australians, New
Landers, etc.  I'm looking to understand other English speaking
cultures through their writings.

Carol again:
Then wouldn't Shaksepeare qualify? Obviously, if you're trying to
learn history through his history plays, that's not going to work, and
 many of his plays are set in times and places other than his own
(with no concern for historical accuracy), but you can learn a lot
about Renaissance England through his plays and poems. Or is your
concern with more modern English-speaking cultures? (And I was joking
about his works not being fiction and consequently not qualifying for
your list. Obviusly, I knew that Goddlefrood's "Who was this
Shakespeare character, anyway?" was facetious; I was in a similar
frame of mind, but clearly that didn't come across to either you or him.)

Kemper now:
> I've read all the America classics you've suggested.  Hawthorne's
'Young Goodman Brown' is one of my all time favs though I could live
without ever having to read the Scarlet Letter again.

Carol:
I like "The Scarlet Letter," bu I could live without "The Minister's
Black Veil" and some of the other short works. And I'd like "Young
Goodman Brown" better if it didn't refer to my ancestor, Martha
Carrier, as "a rampant hag" and "the promised bride of hell."

Kemper: 
> I've only read the odes.  I think I read a short story by Shelley
but for the life of me can't think of what it was.  Maybe it was an essay?

Carol:
Most likely it was an essay, probably "A Defence of Poetry," which is
quite famous and influential. Shelley was a brilliant poet, but he
didn't have the right sort of imagination to write short stories. The
few works of short fiction that he wrote are highly forgettable. You
might be thinking of his wife's novel, "Frankenstein," written when
she was only nineteen, which was inspired by being in company with him
and Byron and is her only work of genius (though she wrote other
novels after his early death).

Here's "Ozymandias," which is a sonnet and consequently all of
fourteen lines, justly famous:

        I met a traveller from an antique land,  	
	Who said--"Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
  	Stand in the desart....Near them, on the sand,
  	Half sunk a shattered visage lies, whose frown,
5 	And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,	
  	Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
  	Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,	
  	The hand that mocked them, and the heart that fed;
  	And on the pedestal, these words appear:
10 	My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings,
  	Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
  	Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
  	Of that colossal Wreck, boundless and bare
  	The lone and level sands stretch far away."

"Desart" is not a typo but Shelley's early-nineteenth-century spelling
of the word. The poem has three speakers, the unnamed narrator, the
traveler, and Ozymandias, and the subtle irony is, IMO, very powerful.

Carol, hoping that the copied-and-pasted poem doesn't come unformatted




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon May  5 14:39:56 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 14:39:56 -0000
Subject: Book recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <b6e131bf0805042052k5ffe8f38kb05d5debcad6bb86@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <fvn67s+v7je@eGroups.com>

Ali wrote:
> If you're into translations, Soul Mountain by Gao Xingjian (Mabel
Lee translation), winner of a Nobel for literature, is absolutely
brilliant.  It's written in second person, which can be grating for
long durations but manages to somehow not be in this ~500 pgs novel.
<snip>

Carol responds:

Written in second person ("you")? How does that work? I don't
understand how a novel could be about the person addressed. 

Carol, too confused to explore the question further




From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Mon May  5 14:50:05 2008
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 14:50:05 -0000
Subject: Inside, Outside, Near Lane, Far Lane, whatever...
Message-ID: <fvn6qt+gkh6@eGroups.com>

Ok, admittedly this is an extremely minor point, but I find
the whole discussion of 'inside lane' and 'outside lane' very
confusing. So confusing that after reading the posts, I still
don't know whether the UK and the US are the same or different.

Relative to 'inside lane', it doesn't matter whether you drive
on the left or the right, the Inside lane is at the center of
the roadway (roadway meaning combined lanes in both directions
whether divided or not), and conversely the 'outside lane' is 
at the outer edge of the roadway. 

It has been my experience, incuding a couple of visits to 
Germany, that the closer you move to the center (inside) of 
the multi-lane roadway, the faster the traffic moves. This is
logical since slower moving merging traffic enters in the 
outside lanes then move farther inward as they speed up. 

So, are we (UK/US) the same or different in this respect - 
fast/passing lane vs slow lane, and 'inside' vs 'outside'
lane?

Not saying that it is important, just that I'm confused by 
the discussion.

Steve/bboyminn

PS: Don't know if I mentioned this, but I recently discovered
that, though I consider myself Norwegian-American, I can
trace my father's father's side back to a direct ancestor in 
Gravesend, Kent, England in 1625. Who knew? 





From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Mon May  5 14:52:54 2008
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 14:52:54 -0000
Subject: Book recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <fvn67s+v7je@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fvn706+7c47@eGroups.com>

> Ali wrote:
> > If you're into translations, Soul Mountain by Gao Xingjian (Mabel
> Lee translation), winner of a Nobel for literature, is absolutely
> brilliant.  It's written in second person, which can be grating for
> long durations but manages to somehow not be in this ~500 pgs novel.
> <snip>
> 
> Carol responds:
> 
> Written in second person ("you")? How does that work? I don't
> understand how a novel could be about the person addressed. 
> 
> Carol, too confused to explore the question further

Magpie:
It's not unheard of to write a novel in the second person. Bright 
Lights, Big City is also written that way. It's not about the person 
addressed so much as telling the person addressed to imagine 
themselves in the place of the person speaking. The narrator is 
talking to/about himself:

"You are not the kind of guy who would be at a place like this at 
this time of the morning. But here you are, and you cannot say that 
the terrain is entirely unfamiliar, although the details are fuzzy."

And:

"You get down on your knees and tear open the bag. The smell of warm 
dough envelops you. The first bite sticks in your throat and you 
almost gag. You will have to go slowly. You will have to learn 
everything all over again." 

-m




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon May  5 14:55:40 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 14:55:40 -0000
Subject: The same language with different words / those shirts / euthanasia
In-Reply-To: <fvmfu2+f283@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fvn75c+43dk@eGroups.com>


> Carol:
> > In any case, I've always felt sure that young drivers would find
it less confusing for the right (right-hand) side to be the right
(correct) side and the left side to be wrong than for left to be right
and right to be wrong. Right?
> 
> Geoff:
> You need to mirror inage that for the UK . We are taught that the
left hand side (nearer the  pavement if there is one or the hard
shoulder on a motorway) is the one to stay in unless you are overtaking.

Carol responds:
Oh, dear. I seem to have been completely misunderstood in my recent
playful posts.

I was punning. The right side is the *right* (correct) side. Get it?
So if a young driver is told to drive on the right side of the road,
he's simultaneously being told to stay on the right-hand side and the
correct side. And that actually does seem more logical to me than "the
left side is the right side to drive on." (The right side, is, in
fact, etymologically associated with correctness and moral rectitude,
whereas "left" derives from a word meaning "weak"--the left hand is
the wrong hand for most people, no offense to lefties intended.) 

Carol, imagining a "who's on first" style conversation beginning, "I
turn left, right?"




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon May  5 15:12:44 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 15:12:44 -0000
Subject: Book recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <fvn706+7c47@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fvn85c+egk5@eGroups.com>

Ali wrote:
> > > If you're into translations, Soul Mountain by Gao Xingjian
(Mabel Lee translation), winner of a Nobel for literature, is
absolutely brilliant.  It's written in second person, which can be
grating for long durations but manages to somehow not be in this ~500
pgs novel.
> > <snip>
> > 
> > Carol responds:
> > 
> > Written in second person ("you")? How does that work? I don't
understand how a novel could be about the person addressed. 
> > 
> > Carol, too confused to explore the question further
> 
> Magpie:
> It's not unheard of to write a novel in the second person. Bright 
Lights, Big City is also written that way. It's not about the person 
> addressed so much as telling the person addressed to imagine 
> themselves in the place of the person speaking. The narrator is 
> talking to/about himself:
> 
> "You are not the kind of guy who would be at a place like this at
this time of the morning. But here you are, and you cannot say that
the terrain is entirely unfamiliar, although the details are fuzzy."
> 
> And:
> 
> "You get down on your knees and tear open the bag. The smell of warm
dough envelops you. The first bite sticks in your throat and you
almost gag. You will have to go slowly. You will have to learn 
everything all over again." 

Carol:

Thanks for the clarification. I think I'll stay with first- or
their-person narration. I can see a reader identifying with "your"
situation, but how can the character have any identifiable personality
traits?

Why not use "I" and present tense (though there's no logical
explanation for such a narrative strategy--the narrator can't write or
tell the story and live it at the same time).

Carol, who thinks that discussion of a book whose protagonist is
referred to as "you" would be rather difficult (at least an unnamded
"I" can be called "the narrator," but "you" isn't narrating--or should
I say "aren't" as if "you" weren't in quotes?)

Carol, who likes Ali's other suggestions but will pass on this one






From kempermentor at yahoo.com  Mon May  5 15:41:44 2008
From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kempermentor)
Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 15:41:44 -0000
Subject: Book recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <fvn5r1+ocdt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fvn9ro+lhfu@eGroups.com>


> Carol earlier:
> ...if you want to be culturally literate 
> ..., it's really a good idea ... to read Shakespeare's plays. 

> > Kemper earlier:
> ...I'm looking to understand other English speaking
> cultures through their writings.
 
> Carol again:
> Then wouldn't Shaksepeare qualify?

Kemper now:
Yes.  But it is a mainstay.  (Plus I've gone to the Oregon Shakespeare
Festival every year for the past eight years with this year being the
ninth.) I'm looking for a hidden gem.  

  
> Carol:
> ...
> Here's "Ozymandias," which is a sonnet and consequently all of
> fourteen lines, justly famous:
> 
>         ... snip poem ...
> 
> ... The poem has three speakers, the unnamed narrator, the
> traveler, and Ozymandias, and the subtle irony is, IMO, very
> powerful.

Kemper now:
Thanks for posting the poem Carol!  
I'm a dumdum when it comes to irony: is it that the poet is now the
'King', you are the 'traveler' (well met on the road to HP), and I am
now the unknown narrator?

Again... I'm a bit of a dumdum so bare with me :)

Kemper, who will most likely be watching Othello, Our Town, and The
Clay Cart later this year




From kempermentor at yahoo.com  Mon May  5 15:59:01 2008
From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kempermentor)
Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 15:59:01 -0000
Subject: Book recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <b6e131bf0805042052k5ffe8f38kb05d5debcad6bb86@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <fvnas5+c73v@eGroups.com>

> Ali:
> And I would have to also recommend Kim Van Kieu 
> ... 
> since Kemper mentioned slavery, I thought of this book, which is
> ... the unofficial novel of the Vietnamese people and is about
> this woman who endures incredible hardships, much of it involving
> forced prostitution ...
> 
> Yes, I know these aren't originally English writings, but I thought
> I'd throw them out there for the interested (and besides, I think
> translators deserve some love, too).

Kemper now:
Thanks Ali!  I live in a part of town that has a high Vietnamese
population (my library has a non-translated, Vietnamese section, so I
hope there's a translation at one of the other libraries)
And translators do deserve love.  Unless they suck.

Kemper, who is also a fan of Gaiman but not so much Pratchett, yet  
lists Good Omens as must reading for a good many laughs 




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Mon May  5 16:33:06 2008
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 16:33:06 -0000
Subject: Book recommendations?/ Good omens
In-Reply-To: <fvnas5+c73v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fvncs2+uraa@eGroups.com>

> Kemper, who is also a fan of Gaiman but not so much Pratchett, yet  
> lists Good Omens as must reading for a good many laughs
<SNIP of the whole post>

Alla:

So funny Kemper, another similarity in our tastes. I do wonder what 
parts in Good Omens were done by Gaiman and which one by Pratchett or 
they collaborated in some other way, because I loved the book very much 
and found it very funny.

But when I picked up another book by Pratchett, I do not remember which 
one even, I read few pages and found his humor to be, well not funny.

I think it is because I found it to be more satirical and I am not a 
big fan of satire or parody for that matter.

I mean, do not get me wrong, I will laugh if I read or hear the parody 
of the song or short poem, but when whole novel is satire or parody, it 
is not my cup of tea.

And before you say anything, yes I know that Good omens is satirical in 
many aspects and still I loved it.

Probably because I found main characters both angel and demon to be 
sympathetic, not just funny in caricature sort of way, if that makes 
sense.

And the vibe they were giving me is the one that Gaiman characters 
usually do, that is why I would be so curious to find out who did what 
in that novel.

Anybody knows if anyone of the authors wrote anything about their work 
together on that novel?

Thanks

Alla






From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Mon May  5 17:17:37 2008
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 17:17:37 -0000
Subject: Inside, Outside, Near Lane, Far Lane, whatever...
In-Reply-To: <fvn6qt+gkh6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fvnffh+2adm@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <bboyminn at ...> wrote:
>
> Ok, admittedly this is an extremely minor point, but I find
> the whole discussion of 'inside lane' and 'outside lane' very
> confusing. So confusing that after reading the posts, I still
> don't know whether the UK and the US are the same or different.
> 
> Relative to 'inside lane', it doesn't matter whether you drive
> on the left or the right, the Inside lane is at the center of
> the roadway (roadway meaning combined lanes in both directions
> whether divided or not), and conversely the 'outside lane' is 
> at the outer edge of the roadway. 

Geoff:
<takes deep breath>

Right.

In the UK, we drive on the left and the inside lane is the lane 
on the /left/ - in other words, nearest the pavement or the 
hedge or the hard shoulder or the garden wall or whatever 
borders the road. This is also sometimes referred to as the 
slow lane in conversation.

If the road is a dual carriageway and has a minimum of two 
lanes each side divided by a central reservation, then the right 
hand lane //in the UK// is the outside lane. If there are three 
lanes each way, the middle lane on each carriageway is the 
centre lane or middle lane. These lanes are sometimes familiarly 
called the fast lanes.

Slower drivers are exhorted to use the inside lanes leaving the 
middle and outside lane(s) for faster overtaking traffic.




From annemehr at yahoo.com  Mon May  5 17:43:45 2008
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (Annemehr)
Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 17:43:45 -0000
Subject: Inside, Outside, Near Lane, Far Lane, whatever...
In-Reply-To: <fvnffh+2adm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fvnh0h+m518@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" 
<gbannister10 at ...> wrote:
>
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <bboyminn@> wrote:
> >
> > Ok, admittedly this is an extremely minor point, but I find
> > the whole discussion of 'inside lane' and 'outside lane' very
> > confusing. So confusing that after reading the posts, I still
> > don't know whether the UK and the US are the same or different.
> > 
> > Relative to 'inside lane', it doesn't matter whether you drive
> > on the left or the right, the Inside lane is at the center of
> > the roadway (roadway meaning combined lanes in both directions
> > whether divided or not), and conversely the 'outside lane' is 
> > at the outer edge of the roadway. 
> 
> Geoff:
> <takes deep breath>
> 
> Right.
> 
> In the UK, we drive on the left and the inside lane is the lane 
> on the /left/ - in other words, nearest the pavement or the 
> hedge or the hard shoulder or the garden wall or whatever 
> borders the road. This is also sometimes referred to as the 
> slow lane in conversation.
> 
> If the road is a dual carriageway and has a minimum of two 
> lanes each side divided by a central reservation, then the right 
> hand lane //in the UK// is the outside lane. If there are three 
> lanes each way, the middle lane on each carriageway is the 
> centre lane or middle lane. These lanes are sometimes familiarly 
> called the fast lanes.
> 
> Slower drivers are exhorted to use the inside lanes leaving the 
> middle and outside lane(s) for faster overtaking traffic.
>

Annemehr:

Right.  So, your inside lanes are on the outside.

And you think WE can't speak English! ;)

Actually, I suppose the terminology might come from racetracks - 
regardless of whether it's horseracing, auto racing, or track, 
everybody tends to run in the inside lane (toward the center of the 
oval), and therefore passing tends to occur on the outside lanes.  
Thus, perhaps, passing lane = "outside lane" and there you go.

N'est-ce pas?





From alexisnguyen at gmail.com  Mon May  5 18:38:00 2008
From: alexisnguyen at gmail.com (P. Alexis Nguyen)
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 14:38:00 -0400
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Book recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <fvn85c+egk5@eGroups.com>
References: <fvn706+7c47@eGroups.com> <fvn85c+egk5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b6e131bf0805051138r3071b55djec08287018d5c141@mail.gmail.com>

Carol:
>
> Thanks for the clarification. I think I'll stay with first- or
> their-person narration. I can see a reader identifying with "your"
> situation, but how can the character have any identifiable personality
> traits?

Ali:
You'd be surprised.  Phrases such as "You are not the type ..." or
"You feel ..." can convey a lot and definitely gives a sense of
personality.  Second person creates a really interesting narration
where you are both reader and narrator but not.  All of this, though,
requires the reader to work harder than with the average piece of pop
fiction, like DaVinci Code (which I enjoyed, though I'll never read it
again).


> Why not use "I" and present tense (though there's no logical
> explanation for such a narrative strategy--the narrator can't write or
> tell the story and live it at the same time).
>
> Carol, who thinks that discussion of a book whose protagonist is
> referred to as "you" would be rather difficult (at least an unnamded
> "I" can be called "the narrator," but "you" isn't narrating--or should
> I say "aren't" as if "you" weren't in quotes?)

Ali:
I think you should give it a try, especially as someone who works as
an editor.  I think you'll find the writing extremely interesting
(whether you go with my recommendation or Bright Lights, Big City).
Second person is, I think, somewhat experimental and off-putting -
after all, you're asking the reader to be you - but both the books
mentioned haven't won acclaim for nothing.  They're ones that take a
naturally very stunted narrative strategy, one that naturally puts a
barrier between the novel and the writers, and make it work.  I'll
grant that it's not for everyone (and really shouldn't be done by
everyone), but it's something that can be educational to try once.
(Bright Lights, Big City is much thinner than Soul Mountain, so if
you're going to just try, I'd recommend that one, though I do think
Soul Mountain does a better job of connecting with the reader, but
being Asian, I think I was just naturally inclined to relate better to
one than the other.)

Like I said, I'm neither modernist nor into modern writings in
general, so experimental writings of any sort are rarely things I
would recommend, but I feel pretty strongly that second person is
something worth being familiar with (though I shudder to think that it
might become popular since, before the two mentioned books, I was
ready throw second person away as something not worthy of exploring).

~Ali



From annemehr at yahoo.com  Mon May  5 18:53:03 2008
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (Annemehr)
Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 18:53:03 -0000
Subject: Book recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <b6e131bf0805051138r3071b55djec08287018d5c141@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <fvnl2f+uknl@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "P. Alexis Nguyen" 
<alexisnguyen at ...> wrote:
>
> Carol:
> >
> > Thanks for the clarification. I think I'll stay with first- or
> > their-person narration. I can see a reader identifying with "your"
> > situation, but how can the character have any identifiable 
personality
> > traits?
> 
> Ali:
> You'd be surprised.  Phrases such as "You are not the type ..." or
> "You feel ..." can convey a lot and definitely gives a sense of
> personality.  Second person creates a really interesting narration
> where you are both reader and narrator but not.<snip>

Annemehr:

Seems like it invites another layer of willing suspension of 
disbelief -- and if done skillfully, could potentially pull the 
reader a little deeper into the story, or out of her comfort zone.

Intriguing.  *Puts Bright Lights on virtual to-be-read pile*







From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Mon May  5 19:30:44 2008
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 19:30:44 -0000
Subject: Inside, Outside, Near Lane, Far Lane, whatever...
In-Reply-To: <fvnh0h+m518@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fvnn94+5ujs@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Annemehr" <annemehr at ...> wrote:
>
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" 
> <gbannister10@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <bboyminn@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Ok, admittedly this is an extremely minor point, but I find
> > > the whole discussion of 'inside lane' and 'outside lane' very
> > > confusing. So confusing that after reading the posts, I still
> > > don't know whether the UK and the US are the same or different.
> > > 
> > > Relative to 'inside lane', it doesn't matter whether you drive
> > > on the left or the right, the Inside lane is at the center of
> > > the roadway (roadway meaning combined lanes in both directions
> > > whether divided or not), and conversely the 'outside lane' is 
> > > at the outer edge of the roadway. 
> > 
> > Geoff:
> > <takes deep breath>
> > 
> > Right.
> > 
> > In the UK, we drive on the left and the inside lane is the lane 
> > on the /left/ - in other words, nearest the pavement or the 
> > hedge or the hard shoulder or the garden wall or whatever 
> > borders the road. This is also sometimes referred to as the 
> > slow lane in conversation.
> > 
> > If the road is a dual carriageway and has a minimum of two 
> > lanes each side divided by a central reservation, then the right 
> > hand lane //in the UK// is the outside lane. If there are three 
> > lanes each way, the middle lane on each carriageway is the 
> > centre lane or middle lane. These lanes are sometimes familiarly 
> > called the fast lanes.
> > 
> > Slower drivers are exhorted to use the inside lanes leaving the 
> > middle and outside lane(s) for faster overtaking traffic.
 
Annemehr: 
> Right.  So, your inside lanes are on the outside.
> 
> And you think WE can't speak English! ;)

Geoff:
No, our inside lanes are on the inside. It's your lanes 
which are inside out. And everyone knows that we native 
Brits speak the best English. Die Gedanken sind frei.
:-)

Annemehr:
> Actually, I suppose the terminology might come from racetracks - 
> regardless of whether it's horseracing, auto racing, or track, 
> everybody tends to run in the inside lane (toward the center of the 
> oval), and therefore passing tends to occur on the outside lanes.  
> Thus, perhaps, passing lane = "outside lane" and there you go.
 
> N'est-ce pas?

Geoff:
Yes, that sounds possible. It would be interesting to find the etymology 
of that usage.




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Mon May  5 19:32:32 2008
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 19:32:32 -0000
Subject: Hey Ab-botttttttttttt   (was Re: The same language with different words
In-Reply-To: <fvn75c+43dk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fvnncg+if7a@eGroups.com>

 
> Carol responds:
> Oh, dear. I seem to have been completely misunderstood in my recent
> playful posts.

Potioncat:
Happens to me all the time.

> Carol, imagining a "who's on first" style conversation beginning, "I
> turn left, right?"


Potioncat:
I live near a city off a major interstate. The interstate highway makes 
a big circle around the city. If the circle is a clockface, I live near 
6 O'Clock. So it drives me crazy when directions start off, "Go north 
on the Beltway." Either way is north for me--but the wrong north could 
take me miles away from where I want to go. No one seems to understand 
my confusion!

Potioncat---certain that she's Costello to Carol's Abbott.







From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Tue May  6 00:43:57 2008
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Tue, 06 May 2008 00:43:57 -0000
Subject: Inside, Outside, Near Lane, Far Lane, whatever...
In-Reply-To: <fvnn94+5ujs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fvo9kd+ohes@eGroups.com>

---  "Geoff Bannister" <gbannister10 at ...> wrote:
>
> ---  "Annemehr" <annemehr@> wrote:
> >
> > --- "Geoff Bannister" 
> > <gbannister10@> wrote:
> > >
> > > ---  "Steve" <bboyminn@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Ok, admittedly this is an extremely minor point, but I
> > > > find the whole discussion of 'inside lane' and 'outside
> > > > lane' very confusing. ...
> > > > 
> > > > Relative to 'inside lane', it doesn't matter whether you
> > > > drive on the left or the right, the Inside lane is at 
> > > > the center of the roadway ..., and conversely the 
> > > >'outside lane' is at the outer edge of the roadway. 
> > > 
> > > Geoff:
> > > <takes deep breath>
> > > 
> > > Right.
> > > 
> > > In the UK, we drive on the left and the inside lane is the
> > > lane on the /left/ - in other words, nearest the pavement 
> > > or the hedge or the hard shoulder or the garden wall or 
> > > whatever borders the road. This is also sometimes referred
> > > to as the slow lane in conversation.
> > > 
> > > ...
>  
> Annemehr: 
> > Right.  So, your inside lanes are on the outside.
> > 
> > And you think WE can't speak English! ;)
> 
> Geoff:
> No, our inside lanes are on the inside. It's your lanes 
> which are inside out. ...
> :-)
> 
> Annemehr:
> > Actually, I suppose the terminology might come from 
> > racetracks - ..., everybody tends to run in the inside 
> > lane (toward the center of the oval), and therefore passing
> > tends to occur on the outside lanes.  Thus, perhaps, passing
> > lane = "outside lane" and there you go.
>  
> > N'est-ce pas?
> 
> Geoff:
> Yes, that sounds possible. It would be interesting to find
> the etymology of that usage.
>

bboyminn:

Still confusing, but I think I get it now, though again, it
doesn't matter which side of the road you drive on. That is,
I don't see that as a factor in designating the lanes 'inside'
or 'outside'.

Regarding race track, of course the inner lane is the 'inside'
because it is toward and closer to the center of the oval which
constitutes the track. And that is the same logic /WE/ use for
highways/roadways; the lane in the center is on the 'inside'
and the lane away from the center at the outer edge is the
'outside'.

Now, first and foremost, I'm not criticizing you; you call 
the lanes what you call them and that is that. But, I find
the logic in those designations completely contradictory to
what I see as common logic. So there must be a logic I don't
see. 

While the racetrack might be possible, it does seem counter
intuitive on a straight road. Again, it is what it is, but
I'm intensely curious to know /WHY/ it is what it is.

Ain't life strange?

Steve/bboyminn




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue May  6 01:19:31 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Tue, 06 May 2008 01:19:31 -0000
Subject: Book recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <fvn9ro+lhfu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fvobn3+f3ud@eGroups.com>

Carol earlier:
> > ...
> > Here's "Ozymandias," which is a sonnet and consequently all of
fourteen lines, justly famous:
> > 
> >         ... snip poem ...
> > 
> > ... The poem has three speakers, the unnamed narrator, the
traveler, and Ozymandias, and the subtle irony is, IMO, very powerful.
> 
> Kemper now:
> Thanks for posting the poem Carol!  
> I'm a dumdum when it comes to irony: is it that the poet is now the
'King', you are the 'traveler' (well met on the road to HP), and I am
now the unknown narrator?
> 
> Again... I'm a bit of a dumdum so bare with me :)

Carol responds:

No. The poet (Shelley) is not speaking for himself. The "I" of the
poem is a nameless and imaginary narrator whose only purpose is to
relate the anecdote of meeting the traveler, who, in turn, relates the
description of the ruined statue and inscription. It's a distancing
device--all subjectivity is removed from everything except
Ozymandias's words, which have a double meaning (as does "the hand
that mocked them").

The irony is in Ozymandias's perception of his own greatness. When he
had the stonemasons carve the words, "Look on my works, ye mighty, and
despair!" he meant the other rulers to despair of ever equalling his
greatness." However, Ozymandias is long dead, his statue is now
reduced to "two vast and trunkless legs of stone" and "a shattered
visage," and his empire is a desert: "Nothing beside remains. Round
the decay/Of that colossal Wreck, boundless and bare/The lone and
level sands stretch far away." The words carved in the stone now have
a meaning that the great ruler Ozymandias did not anticipate: "Look on
my *ruined* works, ye mighty, and despair." Time brings all rulers and
all empires to nothing and makes a mockery of their boasts. ("Mocked"
in the poem means both "imitated" and "ridiculed.")

It's remarkable what a great poet can do with the fourteen-line sonnet
format. (Shelley created his own rhyme scheme rather than using either
the Shakespearean or Petrarchan forms.) 

The Wikipedia article provides the background for the composition (a
competition with a friend) and on Ozymandias, another name for a
famous Pharaoh.

Carol, who thinks that a comparison with Shelley's friend's Horace
Smith's sonnet on the same Wiki page will make it clear why Shelley's
is frequently quoted and Smith's forgotten




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Tue May  6 06:39:41 2008
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Tue, 06 May 2008 06:39:41 -0000
Subject: Inside, Outside, Near Lane, Far Lane, whatever...
In-Reply-To: <fvo9kd+ohes@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fvoufd+mnj6@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <bboyminn at ...> wrote:

bboyminn:
> Now, first and foremost, I'm not criticizing you; you call 
> the lanes what you call them and that is that. But, I find
> the logic in those designations completely contradictory to
> what I see as common logic. So there must be a logic I don't
> see. 

Geoff:
Seriously, there are a lot of situations in life where logic doesn't 
play a part. I have been driving for not far short of 50 years. I 
have never thought of my interpretation of "inside lane" as being 
illogical or curious. 

It was received knowledge. We just accepted it. Everyone uses 
the same meaning here. Obviously, US thinking has diverged 
from ours.

As I said in a previous post, it is possible that we look on 
overtaking as being "on the outside" - which would tie in with 
the racecourse analogy put forward by a couple of contributors.




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Tue May  6 13:29:03 2008
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Tue, 06 May 2008 13:29:03 -0000
Subject: Inside, Outside, Near Lane, Far Lane, whatever...
In-Reply-To: <fvo9kd+ohes@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fvpmev+7i3p@eGroups.com>

 
> bboyminn:
> 
> Still confusing, but I think I get it now, though again, it
> doesn't matter which side of the road you drive on. That is,
> I don't see that as a factor in designating the lanes 'inside'
> or 'outside'.
> 
Potioncat:
A question for Geoff,
When you are on a mult-lane road, on which side (from your point of 
view) is the on-coming traffic?

In the US, driving on the right, the on-coming traffic is on our left. 
Which is why the left is the "middle." If you were looking at a multi-
lane road from an airplane, it would make sense. The middle would to 
all drivers' left.






From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Tue May  6 13:53:44 2008
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Tue, 06 May 2008 13:53:44 -0000
Subject: Inside, Outside, Near Lane, Far Lane, whatever...
In-Reply-To: <fvpmev+7i3p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fvpnt8+asa7@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at ...> wrote:
>
>  
> > bboyminn:
> > 
> > Still confusing, but I think I get it now, though again, it
> > doesn't matter which side of the road you drive on. That is,
> > I don't see that as a factor in designating the lanes 'inside'
> > or 'outside'.
> > 
> Potioncat:
> A question for Geoff,
> When you are on a mult-lane road, on which side (from your point of 
> view) is the on-coming traffic?
> 
> In the US, driving on the right, the on-coming traffic is on our left. 
> Which is why the left is the "middle." If you were looking at a multi-
> lane road from an airplane, it would make sense. The middle would to 
> all drivers' left.
 
Geoff:
The offside - to my right.

I haven't said that the middle (of the entire road) isn't the middle.

I said that, within a context of driving with three lanes going in the 
same direction, in UK English, the leftmost lane  is the inside lane, 
the rightmost lane the outside lane and the lane is the middle is....  
 ...the "middle lane".






From willsonkmom at msn.com  Tue May  6 14:34:48 2008
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Tue, 06 May 2008 14:34:48 -0000
Subject: Inside, Outside, Near Lane, Far Lane, whatever...
In-Reply-To: <fvpnt8+asa7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fvpqa8+ljao@eGroups.com>

  
> Geoff:
> The offside - to my right.
> 
> I haven't said that the middle (of the entire road) isn't the middle.
> 
> I said that, within a context of driving with three lanes going in 
the 
> same direction, in UK English, the leftmost lane  is the inside lane, 
> the rightmost lane the outside lane and the lane is the middle 
is....  
>  ...the "middle lane".
>
Potioncat:
Oops. I changed terminology. I should have said inner. I'm starting to 
understand why I have such problems giving and understanding directions.

But, one more time, then I'm outta here.  So, as you drive along a 
multi-lane highway, your outside lane is next to oncoming traffic's 
outside lane?




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue May  6 16:26:03 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Tue, 06 May 2008 16:26:03 -0000
Subject: Inside, Outside, Near Lane, Far Lane, whatever...
In-Reply-To: <fvpnt8+asa7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fvq0qr+n4q5@eGroups.com>

Geoff:
> The offside - to my right.
> 
> I haven't said that the middle (of the entire road) isn't the middle.
> 
> I said that, within a context of driving with three lanes going in
the same direction, in UK English, the leftmost lane  is the inside
lane, the rightmost lane the outside lane and the lane is the middle
is.... the "middle lane".

Carol responds:

But what, exactly, is your "inside lane" inside? Ours is "inside" the
road itself, whether or not there's a median. Our "outside lane" abuts
the shoulder or sidewalk, which is "outside" the road.

I just don't understand how the lane nearest the edge of the road
could be "inside" anything.

At least we agree on the concepts of "fast lane" and "slow lane"! And
"middle lane." :-)

Carol, understanding that you didn't invent the term and just striving
to understand the concept





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue May  6 16:37:37 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Tue, 06 May 2008 16:37:37 -0000
Subject: Inside, Outside, Near Lane, Far Lane, whatever...
In-Reply-To: <fvpqa8+ljao@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fvq1gh+4dgg@eGroups.com>

Potioncat wrote:
> Oops. I changed terminology. I should have said inner. I'm starting
to understand why I have such problems giving and understanding
directions.
> 
> But, one more time, then I'm outta here.  So, as you drive along a 
multi-lane highway, your outside lane is next to oncoming traffic's
outside lane?

Carol responds:

Maybe it's like "rush hour": the words convey something rather
different from the thing itself. :-)

Carol, wondering if all this confusion traces back to the Romans, who
perhaps drove their chariots on the "sinister" side of the road back
when there were only two lanes, if that, and the "inside lane" was the
road itself as opposed to the verge or shoulder





From jaynesmith62 at btinternet.com  Tue May  6 19:46:09 2008
From: jaynesmith62 at btinternet.com (Jayne)
Date: Tue, 06 May 2008 19:46:09 -0000
Subject: The curtain Rods
Message-ID: <fvqci1+88ds@eGroups.com>

CURTAIN  RODS---- PRICELESS
She  spent the first day packing her belongings into boxes, crates 
and  suitcases.

On  the second day, she had the movers come and collect her  things.

On the third day, she sat down for the last time at their beautiful 
dining room  table by candle-light, put on some soft background 
music, and feasted on a pound of shrimp, a jar of caviar, and a 
bottle of spring-water. 

When she had finished, she went into each and every room and 
deposited a few  half-eaten shrimp shells dipped in caviar into the 
hollow of the curtain rods. 

She then  cleaned up the kitchen and left.   

 

When the husband returned with  his new girlfriend, all was bliss for 
the first few days.

Then slowly, the  house began to smell.

They tried everything; cleaning, mopping and airing the place  out.

Vents were checked for dead rodents and carpets were steam cleaned.  

Air  fresheners were hung everywhere.  Exterminators were brought in 
to set  off gas canisters, during which they had to move out for a 
few days and in  the end they even paid to replace the expensive wool 
carpeting.   

 

Nothing worked. 

People  stopped coming over to visit.  Repairmen refused to work in 
the  house.  The maid quit.

Finally,  they could not take the stench any longer and decided to 
move. 

 

A  month later, even though they had cut their price in half, they 
could not find a buyer for their stinky house.

Word got out and eventually even the local realtors refused to 
return  their  calls.

Finally, they had to borrow a huge sum of money from the bank  to 
purchase  a new place.

The  ex-wife called the man and asked how things were going.

He told  her the saga of the rotting house.  

 

She listened politely and said  that  she missed her old home 
terribly and would be willing to reduce her divorce settlement in 
exchange for getting the house back. 

Knowing his  ex-wife had no idea how bad the smell was, he agreed on 
a  price that was  about 1/10th of what the house had been worth, but 
only if  she were to sign the papers that very day.

She agreed and within the hour his lawyers delivered the paperwork.  

A week later the man and his girlfriend stood smiling as they watched 
the  moving company pack everything to take to their new home.........

And  to spite the ex-wife, they even took the the curtain rods!!!!!!

I LOVE A HAPPY ENDING, DON'T   YOU?  

Hope you had a grin at this

Jayne




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Tue May  6 21:19:54 2008
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Tue, 06 May 2008 21:19:54 -0000
Subject: Inside, Outside, Near Lane, Far Lane, whatever...
In-Reply-To: <fvpqa8+ljao@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fvqi1q+rnck@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at ...> wrote:
>
>   
> > Geoff:
> > The offside - to my right.
> > 
> > I haven't said that the middle (of the entire road) isn't the middle.
> > 
> > I said that, within a context of driving with three lanes going in 
> the 
> > same direction, in UK English, the leftmost lane  is the inside lane, 
> > the rightmost lane the outside lane and the lane is the middle 
> is....  
> >  ...the "middle lane".
> >
> Potioncat:
> Oops. I changed terminology. I should have said inner. I'm starting to 
> understand why I have such problems giving and understanding directions.
> 
> But, one more time, then I'm outta here.  So, as you drive along a 
> multi-lane highway, your outside lane is next to oncoming traffic's 
> outside lane?

GEoff:
In a word. Yes. 

With the proviso that there is a central reservation and probably a 
crash barrier in the sandwich as well.






From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Tue May  6 21:27:06 2008
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Tue, 06 May 2008 21:27:06 -0000
Subject: Inside, Outside, Near Lane, Far Lane, whatever...
In-Reply-To: <fvq0qr+n4q5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fvqifa+j214@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:
>
> Geoff:
> > The offside - to my right.
> > 
> > I haven't said that the middle (of the entire road) isn't the middle.
> > 
> > I said that, within a context of driving with three lanes going in
> the same direction, in UK English, the leftmost lane  is the inside
> lane, the rightmost lane the outside lane and the lane is the middle
> is.... the "middle lane".
> 
> Carol responds:
> 
> But what, exactly, is your "inside lane" inside? Ours is "inside" the
> road itself, whether or not there's a median. Our "outside lane" abuts
> the shoulder or sidewalk, which is "outside" the road.
> 
> I just don't understand how the lane nearest the edge of the road
> could be "inside" anything.
> 
> At least we agree on the concepts of "fast lane" and "slow lane"! And
> "middle lane." :-)
> 
> Carol, understanding that you didn't invent the term and just striving
> to understand the concept

Geoff:
Inside the pavement or the hedge or the hard shoulder or whatever
happens to abut the road on the near side.

Great heavens. Never say that the thought that I invented the term 
crossed your mind. Shock, horror, that you could indulge in such 
calumny.
:-)

As an example, whenever I go into Wales to visit a friend, I approach a 
roundabout near the centre of Cardiff to turn left towards the town of 
Penarth and there is sign saying "Inside Lane for Penarth only" because 
I cannot use the left lane to go straight ahead which happens usually 
because there is a dedicated lane for Penarth and - I repeat - it says 
"Inside Lane".






From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Tue May  6 22:07:17 2008
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Tue, 06 May 2008 22:07:17 -0000
Subject: Inside, Outside, Near Lane, Far Lane, whatever...
In-Reply-To: <fvqifa+j214@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fvqkql+gmlo@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" <gbannister10 at ...> wrote:

Geoff:
Just in passing, who started this whole darned convoluted 
thread off?

T'was Catlady in 36423, who out of the blue and totally OT 
to the OT topic being discussed on OT-Chatter, asked the 
question "Which lanes on a road are the 'inside' lanes?"

Yes, well.

Obviously a natural stirrer.
:-)




From annemehr at yahoo.com  Tue May  6 22:28:51 2008
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (Annemehr)
Date: Tue, 06 May 2008 22:28:51 -0000
Subject: Inside, Outside, Near Lane, Far Lane, whatever...
In-Reply-To: <fvqifa+j214@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fvqm33+pqkf@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" 
<gbannister10 at ...> wrote:
 
> As an example, whenever I go into Wales to visit a friend, I approach 
a 
> roundabout near the centre of Cardiff to turn left towards the town 
of 
> Penarth and there is sign saying "Inside Lane for Penarth only" 
because 
> I cannot use the left lane to go straight ahead which happens usually 
> because there is a dedicated lane for Penarth and - I repeat - it 
says 
> "Inside Lane".
>

And I would SO have been in the wrong lane, had I been on the same 
route.

Annemehr





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed May  7 04:41:21 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Wed, 07 May 2008 04:41:21 -0000
Subject: Inside, Outside, Near Lane, Far Lane, whatever...
In-Reply-To: <fvqm33+pqkf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fvrbth+g1cc@eGroups.com>

Geoff wrote:
> > As an example, whenever I go into Wales to visit a friend, I
approach a roundabout near the centre of Cardiff to turn left towards
the town of Penarth and there is sign saying "Inside Lane for Penarth
only" because I cannot use the left lane to go straight ahead which
happens usually because there is a dedicated lane for Penarth and - I
repeat - it says "Inside Lane".
> >
Annemehr: 
> And I would SO have been in the wrong lane, had I been on the same 
route.

Carol responds:

Me, too! So, normally, the left lane would be the "dedicated lane"
(the exit lane), but in this case, it's the right lane because--? Or,
if the left lane is always the inside lane, why is this "dedicated
lane" different from the usual setup?

And, erm, "sandwich" in the previous post? Was it roast beef or PB and J?

Carol, empathizing with poor little Rupert Grint in "driving Lessons"




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Wed May  7 06:34:42 2008
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Wed, 07 May 2008 06:34:42 -0000
Subject: Inside, Outside, Near Lane, Far Lane, whatever...
In-Reply-To: <fvrbth+g1cc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fvrii2+ncma@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:
>
> Geoff wrote:
> > > As an example, whenever I go into Wales to visit a friend, I
> approach a roundabout near the centre of Cardiff to turn left towards
> the town of Penarth and there is sign saying "Inside Lane for Penarth
> only" because I cannot use the left lane to go straight ahead which
> happens usually because there is a dedicated lane for Penarth and - I
> repeat - it says "Inside Lane".
> > >
> Annemehr: 
> > And I would SO have been in the wrong lane, had I been on the same 
> route.
> 
> Carol responds:
> 
> Me, too! So, normally, the left lane would be the "dedicated lane"
> (the exit lane), but in this case, it's the right lane because--? Or,
> if the left lane is always the inside lane, why is this "dedicated
> lane" different from the usual setup?
 
Geoff:
It occurs sometimes on UK roundabouts where a left turn is heavily 
used and it means that turning traffic is  segregated from traffic on 
the roundabout and therefore does not have to give way which 
would slow the flow.

Carol::
> And, erm, "sandwich" in the previous post? Was it roast beef or PB and J?

Geoff:
Ham and salad. Balanced and healthy.






From mwood005 at comcast.net  Wed May  7 14:35:27 2008
From: mwood005 at comcast.net (melody_wood14)
Date: Wed, 07 May 2008 14:35:27 -0000
Subject: Inside, Outside, Near Lane, Far Lane, whatever...
In-Reply-To: <fvpmev+7i3p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fvsenf+73vv@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at ...> 
wrote:
>  Melody_wood14
   I talked to my daughters drivers ed teacher. She said the the 
   inside lane in the U.S. is the lane closest to on-coming traffic.
   The outside is the lane fartherest from on-coming traffic and
   middle is between the two. I also wanted to thank everyone on 
   their help with my sons project on England. I would not recomend 
   using spoted dick on a school project. His teacher was a little
   upset and gave him a 50. I talked to her and she said next time to
   find something with a more school aproprete wording. I should have
   know better but I didn't think they would be so upset. And yes
   this is public school. Oh well we live and learn. He did say to 
   tell all of you thank you.
>  
> > bboyminn:
> > 
> > Still confusing, but I think I get it now, though again, it
> > doesn't matter which side of the road you drive on. That is,
> > I don't see that as a factor in designating the lanes 'inside'
> > or 'outside'.
> > 
> Potioncat:
> A question for Geoff,
> When you are on a mult-lane road, on which side (from your point of 
> view) is the on-coming traffic?
> 
> In the US, driving on the right, the on-coming traffic is on our 
left. 
> Which is why the left is the "middle." If you were looking at a 
multi-
> lane road from an airplane, it would make sense. The middle would 
to 
> all drivers' left.
>





From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Wed May  7 15:23:23 2008
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Wed, 07 May 2008 15:23:23 -0000
Subject: Spotted Dick & School... (was: Inside, Outside,... Lane)
In-Reply-To: <fvsenf+73vv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fvshhb+pp6b@eGroups.com>

---  "melody_wood14" <mwood005 at ...> wrote:
>

> >  Melody_wood14
> ...
> I also wanted to thank everyone on their help with my sons 
> project on England. I would not recommend using spoted dick 
> on a school project. His teacher was a little upset and gave
> him a 50. I talked to her and she said next time to find 
> something with a more school appropriate wording. I should have
> know better but I didn't think they would be so upset. And yes
> this is public school. Oh well we live and learn. He did say to 
> tell all of you thank you.

bboyminn:

That's ridiculous, wasn't the whole purpose of the project about
cultural awareness and cultural differences. Consider our
current discussion of 'inside lane' and 'outside' lane. The very
fact that 'spotted dick' is completely acceptable in England
speaks volumes about the cultural differences.

The fact that the teacher was so incensed and apparently offended
tells me that she/he needs a serious course in cultural 
sensitivity. There is nothing wrong with 'spotted dick' in and
of itself, it is in the mind of the teacher that the offense
occurs. And you son was apparently punished because the teacher
has a dirty mind. 

That fact is, in England this desert is CALLED 'SPOTTED DICK'
and it is a very common and popular dish, even to the point
where Heinz (the ketchup people) make it available in a can.

I think you son's project was probably more relevant than
others because it shows the vast differences in cultures.
Though it certainly could have been worse. It could have
been 'Six Faggots in Gravy' or -

- Sweet & Salty Nut bars
- Plopp - a chocolate caramel bar
- Coon - Australia's tastiest cheeze
- Shitto sauce
- Nut Snack (I really think the 'nut' references are a stretch)
- Spunk
- Poo

http://commercial-archive.com/node/143352

What is done is done, but I think this teacher was very narrow
minded about it.

Just one man's opinion.

Steve/bboyminn




From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Wed May  7 15:28:36 2008
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Wed, 07 May 2008 15:28:36 -0000
Subject: Spotted Dick & School... (was: Inside, Outside,... Lane)
In-Reply-To: <fvshhb+pp6b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fvshr4+mako@eGroups.com>

Oh yeah, if you made some 'Spotted Dick', how did it turn out?

Did you like it? Did your son like it?

Also, we know what the teacher's reactions was, but what was 
the reaction of his fellow students?

steve/bboyminn




From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Wed May  7 17:09:48 2008
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Wed, 07 May 2008 17:09:48 -0000
Subject: Spotted Dick & School... (was: Inside, Outside,... Lane)
In-Reply-To: <fvshr4+mako@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fvsnos+i57t@eGroups.com>

---  "Steve" <bboyminn at ...> wrote:
>
> Oh yeah, if you made some 'Spotted Dick', how did it turn out?
> 
> Did you like it? Did your son like it?
> 
> Also, we know what the teacher's reactions was, but what was 
> the reaction of his fellow students?
> 
> steve/bboyminn
>

bboyminn:

OK, I promise to stop replying to my own posts.

Though it comes too late for your son, I did find a discussion
involving the origins of the name 'Spotted Dick' also known
apparently as 'Spotted Dog' (wish I had know that before).

Here is a link to that discussion -

http://www.woodlands-junior.kent.sch.uk/customs/questions/forum/dick.htm

Apparently, it stems from the early non-standardization of the
English language. Pudding, meaning any type of desert, was 
variously referred to as -

"'puddink' and 'puddick' and then just 'dick.' "

Perhaps your son could do some research and expand on his
report in a way that might boost his grade. He might also 
explain to the teacher how culturally intolerant and 
insensitive she was being to something that is a large and
common part of British culture, though doing so would certainly
come with some risk. 

Just a few thoughts.

Steve/bboyminn




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed May  7 17:32:18 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Wed, 07 May 2008 17:32:18 -0000
Subject: Inside, Outside, Near Lane, Far Lane, whatever...
In-Reply-To: <fvrii2+ncma@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fvsp32+ifg2@eGroups.com>

Carol earlier:
> > And, erm, "sandwich" in the previous post? Was it roast beef or PB
and J?
> 
> Geoff:
> Ham and salad. Balanced and healthy.

Carol again:

Good choice! (With mustard, not mayonnaise, I hope.)

Seriously, you wrote: "With the proviso that there is a central
reservation and probably a crash barrier in the sandwich as well."

I assume that the "central reservation" is what we call a median or an
island (a raised area, often landscaped, that separates traffic going
in opposite directions). Or is that the "crash barrier"? But I can't
figure out what the "sandwich" is. Does it have concrete sides and a
grass filling? If so, *it's* the island or median.

Carol, who would call a "ham and salad sandwich" a ham sandwich with
lettuce and tomato





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed May  7 17:47:38 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Wed, 07 May 2008 17:47:38 -0000
Subject: Spotted Dick & School... (was: Inside, Outside,... Lane)
In-Reply-To: <fvsnos+i57t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fvspvq+tlhq@eGroups.com>

bboyminn wrote:
> 
> Perhaps your son could do some research and expand on his report in
a way that might boost his grade. He might also explain to the teacher
how culturally intolerant and insensitive she was being to something
that is a large and common part of British culture, though doing so
would certainly come with some risk. 

Carol responds:
I think that the additional research and report is a good idea, as
long as he gets the teacher's approval first (no point in doing the
work if he's not going to get credit for it). That could also be a
subtle way of showing the teacher her own cultural ignorance.

However, telling her straight out that she's insensitive would
probably be about as effective (and wise) as telling Dolores Umbridge
that she's mistaken about Voldemort. The risk outweighs the possible
benefits. You don't *tell* a teacher that she's ignorant. You subtly
*show* her through your research, or you silently bear it. Unless, of
course, you enjoy being sent to the principal's office and having your
grades suffer in consequence of having insulted a teacher.

I'm quite sure, BTW, that the teacher really thought that the
selection of that particular dessert was inappropriate. It should have
been cleared with her in advance, and if she didn't approve because
she didn't see the humor or the importance of understanding cultural
differences in countries with a common language but significant
differences in vocabulary, she or the child could propose an
alternative suggestion.

Carol, wondering how that teacher would react if she assigned the
students to read "Sorcerer's Stone" (obviously, she'd use the
Scholastic edition) and encountered the term "spotted dick"





From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Wed May  7 18:50:47 2008
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Wed, 07 May 2008 18:50:47 -0000
Subject: Inside, Outside, Near Lane, Far Lane, whatever...
In-Reply-To: <fvsp32+ifg2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fvstm7+topl@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:
>
> Carol earlier:
> > > And, erm, "sandwich" in the previous post? Was it roast beef or PB
> and J?
> > 
> > Geoff:
> > Ham and salad. Balanced and healthy.
> 
> Carol again:
> 
> Good choice! (With mustard, not mayonnaise, I hope.)

Geoff:
Vinaigrette dressing preferably.

Carol: 
> Seriously, you wrote: "With the proviso that there is a central
> reservation and probably a crash barrier in the sandwich as well."
> 
> I assume that the "central reservation" is what we call a median or an
> island (a raised area, often landscaped, that separates traffic going
> in opposite directions). Or is that the "crash barrier"? But I can't
> figure out what the "sandwich" is. Does it have concrete sides and a
> grass filling? If so, *it's* the island or median.

Geoff:
The central reservation is usually a flat grass section with concrete 
kerbing. Crash barriers, which are standard on motorways and  trunk 
A-class roads are substantial strips of corrugated steel mounted about 
3 feet off the ground on metal posts to prevent crossover smashes in 
the case of  a vehicle coming off the outside lane towards the centre.

I viewed the central resevation and crash barriers as the filling in the 
sandwich of two slices of carriageway.
:-)

Carol, who would call a "ham and salad sandwich" a ham sandwich with
> lettuce and tomato

Geoff:
A little clarification is called for.

Are you suggesting that the lettuce and tomato are a side salad? I mean 
a sandwich which contains ham and salad items between the slices of 
bread....






From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Thu May  8 00:45:18 2008
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 00:45:18 -0000
Subject: Leavesden Studio - Fly By - BBC
Message-ID: <fvtieu+vh1b@eGroups.com>

Funny, I always thought it was Leavensden Studios, but apparently
it is Leaves Den Studios, or more accurately Leavesden Studios.

Anyway, the BBC has recently flow a heliocopter over the studios
and recorded some of the construction that is going on there.
You can see partially complete Burrow, Hagrid's hut, Privet
Drive, something church-like that might be the courtyard at
Hogwarts, and a few other things.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/7386200.stm

Note: there is no sound with this video.

Just out of curiosity, I was playing with 'Google Earth' 
which is a free program that has visually (by photograph)
mapped the entire world. You can see parked cars and people
walking on the streets of London. It's really great. 

So, I thought I would try to find Leavesden Studios and see
if I could see the construction. Google Earth is reasonably
up to date, and they have been filming and constructing
at the studio for years.

Sadly - no dice, I found the studio but can't find any of the
construction. I guess we have to wait for the satellite to
fly over again.

Anyway, if you have Google Earth and would like to see the
studio, enter this in your Google Earth Search -

Leavesden Studios, Watford, Hertfordshire, England

It should take you to roughly -

51deg 38' 57.89" N
0deg 25' 21.62" W

If you don't have Google Earth, you can get it at -

http://earth.google.com/

For what it's worth.

Steve/bboyminn




From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Thu May  8 01:12:02 2008
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 01:12:02 -0000
Subject: Leavesden Studio - Correction
In-Reply-To: <fvtieu+vh1b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fvtk12+tntv@eGroups.com>

Something wasn't quite right about the location of my previous
post. The location of Leavesden Studios was marked as such 
because 13 users of Google Earth had designated it as such.

However, using the video from BBC, I search that area for 
something that looked more like the studio in the video,
and I found it.

Here is the real Leavesden Studios, and it is so marked by
Google as both the -

de Havilland/Rolls-Royce production site

which it originally was, and is also marked as Leavesden
Studios.

The NEW coordinates are -

51deg 41' 36.00" N
00deg 25' 10.98" W

This location is nearly straight north of the previous location
and it is possible that both buildings belong to the Studio.

One significant feature of this new location is that it has
it's own airplane run way, and that makes it easy to spot.

Note, the airfield is there because Rolls-Royce made airplane
engines. 

If you look closely at the BBC video, you can see the airfield.

Between the landing strip and the main building is the Burrow.

Sadly, Google Earth is not sufficiently updated to show any of
this new construction. Still, it was nice to see the studio
from the air.

Again...for what it's worth.

Steve/bboyminn




From leekaiwen at yahoo.com  Thu May  8 01:12:28 2008
From: leekaiwen at yahoo.com (Lee Kaiwen)
Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 09:12:28 +0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Spotted Dick & School...
In-Reply-To: <fvshhb+pp6b@eGroups.com>
References: <fvshhb+pp6b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4822537C.70305@yahoo.com>

Melody_wood14

> I would not recommend using spoted dick
> on a school project.

bboyminn:

> That's ridiculous, wasn't the whole purpose of the project about
> cultural awareness and cultural differences.

....

> What is done is done, but I think this teacher was very narrow
> minded about it.

> Just one man's opinion.

Gotta disagree with ya here, bboyminn. This is NOT just "one man's 
opinion". You can count me in, too :-)

Since we're not supposed to post "me toos", I'll add a comment:

If the report was presented to the class, it amy have been appropriate 
for the teaching to recommend leaving out the spotted dick bit -- 
especially in the elementary or junior high grades, where hormones run 
amock. As a teacher, I know from personal experience just how ready 
neo-pubescent boys are to discover sexual and scatalogical innuendo in 
even the most innocent of things.

However, if the report was for the teacher's eyes only, then I agree she 
missed the whole point of her own assignment.

CJ




From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Thu May  8 01:53:44 2008
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 01:53:44 -0000
Subject: Spotted Dick & School...
In-Reply-To: <4822537C.70305@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <fvtmf8+90gf@eGroups.com>

---  Lee Kaiwen <leekaiwen at ...> wrote:
>
> Melody_wood14
> 
> > I would not recommend using spoted dick
> > on a school project.
> 
> bboyminn:
> 
> > That's ridiculous, wasn't the whole purpose of the project 
> > about cultural awareness and cultural differences.
> 
> ....
> 
>...

> Lee:
> 
> Gotta disagree with ya here, bboyminn. This is NOT just "one
> man's opinion". You can count me in, too :-)
> ...
> 
> However, if the report was for the teacher's eyes only, then 
> I agree she missed the whole point of her own assignment.
> 
> CJ
>

bboyminn:

I was under the impression that it was not just a report, but
more of an understanding of foreign lands through their food.
So, I suspect that the boy brought some real home-made Spotted
Dick to school for his class to enjoy, or at least taste. His
other classmate found British foods of their own and brought
those, or possibly someone brought Chinese food, someone 
brought African food, etc.... 

I've seen small international diversity fairs like this at 
some schools where the whole approach is about food from
different lands. It seems very common.

In this case, the whole idea that Spotted Dick would be
laughed at in the USA, but was very common and popular
in the UK, did the job perfectly, by showing a very good 
desert that had an odd name to the American view. I thought 
this was the whole point of the thing. In a sense, the
point of cultural diversity is to realize that we can't
measure the world with ourselves at the center. Other people
and other cultures see the world very differently than
we do, and this illustrated that perfectly.

Still, we knew it was going to get a laugh, and be...how
can I say this...culturally questionable. But still, I think
the teacher WAY over reacted.

Just a thought.

Steve/bboyminn




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Thu May  8 02:42:51 2008
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 02:42:51 -0000
Subject: Inside, Outside, Near Lane, Far Lane, whatever...
In-Reply-To: <fvsenf+73vv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fvtpbb+1o6d@eGroups.com>


> >  Melody_wood14
 I also wanted to thank everyone on 
>    their help with my sons project on England. I would not recomend 
>    using spoted dick on a school project. His teacher was a little
>    upset and gave him a 50. I talked to her and she said next time to
>    find something with a more school aproprete wording. I should have
>    know better but I didn't think they would be so upset. And yes
>    this is public school. Oh well we live and learn. He did say to 
>    tell all of you thank you.

Potioncat:
I would protest the grade if I were you. Beyond the teacher, perhaps. 
Or maybe not. You know your school system better than I do, and there 
is a point when it's better to keep your head down. There are other 
times when it pays off to protest. How badly did this hurt his over all 
grade?

If you son went in and presented it as a double entendre---then I could 
understand some consequences. But if he was given a 50 out of 100, a 
failing grade because of the name....well, I hope he doesn't have to 
give a report about our vice president!  







From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Thu May  8 04:14:40 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 04:14:40 -0000
Subject: Inside, Outside, Near Lane, Far Lane, whatever...
In-Reply-To: <fvstm7+topl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fvtung+v5t0@eGroups.com>

Geoff:
> The central reservation is usually a flat grass section with
concrete kerbing. Crash barriers, which are standard on motorways and
 trunk A-class roads are substantial strips of corrugated steel
mounted about 3 feet off the ground on metal posts to prevent
crossover smashes in the case of  a vehicle coming off the outside
lane towards the centre.

Carol responds:
Okay, the picture is getting clearer. The "central reservation" is
what we call an island or median, with "kerb" spelled as "curb." Steve
or someone can help me out with what we call the strips of steel
mounted on posts. (I'm sure they a name, but I can't remember it.)

Geoff: 
> I viewed the central resevation and crash barriers as the filling in
the sandwich of two slices of carriageway.
> :-)

Carol:
I see. It was your own metaphor. Very nice. BTW, I have no idea what a
carriageway is, carriages having long since fallen out of use, much
less a "trunk A-class road." You are certain, monsieur, zat zis is
Eenglish you are speaking?
> 
> Carol, who would call a "ham and salad sandwich" a ham sandwich with
lettuce and tomato
> 
> Geoff:
> A little clarification is called for.
> 
> Are you suggesting that the lettuce and tomato are a side salad? I
mean a sandwich which contains ham and salad items between the slices
of bread....

Carol:
No, not a side salad. "A ham sandwich with lettuce and tomato" means
that the lettuce and tomato are inside the sandwich (unless you
specifically request them "on the side"). I'm not sure which other
salad ingredients you would put on your "ham and salad sandwich."
Onion, for example, doesn't seem to go particularly well with ham, and
cheese can be a salad ingredient, but isn't a vegetable.

Carol, wondering how she ever survived in England and grateful for the
Best Bacon Baguette at the Turk's Head Inn in Oxford, which she tried,
liked, and kept on ordering!





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Thu May  8 04:35:59 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 04:35:59 -0000
Subject: Inside, Outside, Near Lane, Far Lane, whatever...
In-Reply-To: <fvtpbb+1o6d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fvtvvf+mj3d@eGroups.com>

Potioncat wrote:
> I would protest the grade if I were you. Beyond the teacher,
perhaps. Or maybe not. You know your school system better than I do,
and there  is a point when it's better to keep your head down. There
are other  times when it pays off to protest. How badly did this hurt
his over all grade?
> 
> If you son went in and presented it as a double entendre---then I
could understand some consequences. But if he was given a 50 out of
100, a failing grade because of the name....well, I hope he doesn't
have to give a report about our vice president!

Carol responds:
I agree with Potioncat. While I think it would be a very bad idea for
the son to tell the teacher that she was ignorant (or for the mother
to do so, for that matter), it couldn't hurt for the mother to
schedule an appointment with the teacher to explain the innocent
intent of the project, which was to illustrate differences between
American and British culture/food and language. If the teacher is
angry and defensive, I wouldn't persist; it might just make matters
worse. But if she's willing to listen, it would be worth the effort,
especially if the failing grade on the project makes a difference in
his grade for the six weeks or the semester.

Regarding Dick Cheney, born in a more innocent era: Does anyone
besides me remember when Dick was just a nickname for Richard (Dick
Nixon, anyone?) "See Dick run. See Dick run and play. Oh, oh, oh.
(Sure the Dick and Jane books were mindless, but they taught a lot of
kids, including me, to read.)

Carol, hoping that it's not inappropriate to note that this week in
National Teacher Appreciation Week in the U.S. (there are good
teachers out there), yesterday was National Teacher Day, and today is
National School Nurse Day





From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Thu May  8 06:41:48 2008
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 06:41:48 -0000
Subject: Inside, Outside, Near Lane, Far Lane, whatever...
In-Reply-To: <fvtung+v5t0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fvu7bc+jplf@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:

 Geoff: 
> > I viewed the central resevation and crash barriers as the filling in
> the sandwich of two slices of carriageway.
> > :-)

Carol:
> I see. It was your own metaphor. Very nice. BTW, I have no idea what a
> carriageway is, carriages having long since fallen out of use, much
> less a "trunk A-class road." You are certain, monsieur, zat zis is
> Eenglish you are speaking?

Geoff"
A carriageway is a lane of a road meaning the actual driving area. The 
word carriageway is regularly used in a more "official' way in reports 
such as TV/radio traffic reports....

"The southbound carriageway of the A1 at Stamford has now been 
re-opened following an earlier accident"

...this would be a fairly typical report on, say, the morning news.


> > Carol, who would call a "ham and salad sandwich" a ham sandwich with
> lettuce and tomato
> > 
> > Geoff:
> > A little clarification is called for.
> > 
> > Are you suggesting that the lettuce and tomato are a side salad? I
> mean a sandwich which contains ham and salad items between the slices
> of bread....
> 
> Carol:
> No, not a side salad. "A ham sandwich with lettuce and tomato" means
> that the lettuce and tomato are inside the sandwich (unless you
> specifically request them "on the side").

Geoff:
Ah. That was my meaning initially.

Carol:
 I'm not sure which other
> salad ingredients you would put on your "ham and salad sandwich."

Geoff:
Probably nothing. I will often have a bowl of salad as a midday or 
evening snack; this would include lettuce, tomato, mushrooms, 
radishes, cucumber, raisins and coleslaw.

Very more-ish.






From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Thu May  8 13:26:34 2008
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 13:26:34 -0000
Subject: Inside, Outside, Near Lane, Far Lane, whatever...
In-Reply-To: <fvtung+v5t0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fvuv2a+g9sk@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:

Carol:
> I see. It was your own metaphor. Very nice. BTW, I have no idea what a
> carriageway is, carriages having long since fallen out of use, much
> less a "trunk A-class road." You are certain, monsieur, zat zis is
> Eenglish you are speaking?

Geoff:
I missed part of your sentence so I shall now rectify that. If you are 
getting tired of the discussion on roads, read no further...... cover your 
eyes, block your ears or whatever.

Allow me to give you a short lesson on the UK road classification system. 
The system really dates back to about 1922 when major roads were given 
an A classification; these have remained the same as the system has been 
altered. For example, the A4 is still the A4. The greater the number of 
digits, the lower the road is down the pecking order so the A3 is more 
important than the A217.

Less important roads but necessary to the main network were classified 
B roads. Other roads - side streets in towns, country lanes etc. are 
referred to as unclassified (Although there is a C class system used 
internally by highway authorities but not displayed on road signs.)

In 1959, the first motorways were opened; I believe these would 
correspond approximately to the US Interstates. They are fully segregated 
dual carriageways - at least four lanes (two each side) with a central 
reservation, although some, such as the (in)famous M25 London Orbital
have eight lanes. They have grade-separated interchanges, hard shoulders 
for emergencies and dedicated service areas. Some major A class roads 
have had sections upgraded to full motorway standard which an be 
recognised by having an M in brackets - for example, long stretches of 
the A1 (London-Edinburgh) are now A1(M).

Many important A roads have been upgraded but do not always have 
full segregation or dual carriageways. These are designated trunk roads. 
If you are driving in the UK, you can know which of the above you are on; 
motorways have road signs which have a blue background while trunk 
roads have a dark green backing .

At one time, road maintenance was carried by local authorities but, nowadays, 
the control and upkeep of motorways and trunk roads is in the hands of the 
Highways Agency.

OK, you can take your fingers out of your ears or uncover your eyes now.
:-)




From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Thu May  8 13:55:15 2008
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 13:55:15 -0000
Subject: Spotted Dick & School...
In-Reply-To: <fvtmf8+90gf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fvv0o3+8gcc@eGroups.com>

 bboyminn:

> In this case, the whole idea that Spotted Dick would be
> laughed at in the USA, but was very common and popular
> in the UK, did the job perfectly, by showing a very good 
> desert that had an odd name to the American view. I thought 
> this was the whole point of the thing. In a sense, the
> point of cultural diversity is to realize that we can't
> measure the world with ourselves at the center. Other people
> and other cultures see the world very differently than
> we do, and this illustrated that perfectly.
> 
> Still, we knew it was going to get a laugh, and be...how
> can I say this...culturally questionable. But still, I think
> the teacher WAY over reacted.

Magpie:
Yes, her reaction was certainly unfair. Even if she wanted to say to 
him that the choice of food wasn't a good one because everybody would 
think it was dirty, why should he get half0off if he did everything 
right? Unless he made his entire presentation about how it's a funny 
name, that's ridiculous.

-m




From mwood005 at comcast.net  Thu May  8 14:37:56 2008
From: mwood005 at comcast.net (melody_wood14)
Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 14:37:56 -0000
Subject: Spotted Dick & School...
In-Reply-To: <fvtmf8+90gf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fvv384+5vro@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <bboyminn at ...> wrote:
>
> --- melody_wood14
      
      The project was to " go the England" or one of the other
      countries on their list. Two kids went to each one. They 
      had to do 3 project, all were listed and how to do them.
      They all had to do a treasure box and the teacher explained
      to them how to do it. Then pick 2 other projects. His were 
      Food mat and scrap book. Each were done on poster board 
      and with food mat he had to bring food. He printed 3  
      recipies with pictures and brought spotted dick and 
      lemon biscuts. I found they at H.E.B. For the scrap book 
      he had Euros and pictures from the internet as well as 
      some fact about Stonehenge, Woodhenge, Brown Willy and 
      platform 9 3/4. Then had to do and oral presentation 
      in class over everything. It was there end of the 6 weeks
      test grade so it counted for 20% of the 6 weeks grade.
      He still passed the 6 weeks even with the low grade. 
      The teacher is out sick for the rest of the year,4
      more weeks. So I can not ask her to explain how she 
      came up with the grade. Three out five family members
      liked the spotted dick at our house. It a house of picky
      eaters that is not bad odds. This type of project
      is not new to us every year from 1st grade on up he 
      "taken a trip over seas". To all teachers out there
      it is a wonderful thing for them to do. Last year he 
      "went to Egypt" for a month.He had a journel and wrote 
      in it every day what he did and what it cost. From 
      the plane flight there to the flight back home. He is 
      a pre-teen boy, 12. I have had a conference with this teacher 
      for other reasons and she told that he reads to much sci-fi
      and needed to read more historical books. That his head was 
      to high in the sky. My answer to that was at least he reads
      1 to 2 hours a night every night. He has not had a good year 
      this school year and thank goodness it is almost over. I just
      feel bad because this is the first time that I have tried to
      help him or that he has let me help him on a project. Normaly
      I buy the supplies and just watch him do it. So maybe it was my 
      help that hurt his grade. Well with the teacher gone we will
      never know. He did say that with all everyones input it made 
      research easier so for that thank you everyone. We liked the
      project so we decided the grade was to harsh and to forget
      the grade it made. 
    
> >
> 
> bboyminn:
> 
> I was under the impression that it was not just a report, but
> more of an understanding of foreign lands through their food.
> So, I suspect that the boy brought some real home-made Spotted
> Dick to school for his class to enjoy, or at least taste. His
> other classmate found British foods of their own and brought
> those, or possibly someone brought Chinese food, someone 
> brought African food, etc.... 
> 
> I've seen small international diversity fairs like this at 
> some schools where the whole approach is about food from
> different lands. It seems very common.
> 
> In this case, the whole idea that Spotted Dick would be
> laughed at in the USA, but was very common and popular
> in the UK, did the job perfectly, by showing a very good 
> desert that had an odd name to the American view. I thought 
> this was the whole point of the thing. In a sense, the
> point of cultural diversity is to realize that we can't
> measure the world with ourselves at the center. Other people
> and other cultures see the world very differently than
> we do, and this illustrated that perfectly.
> 
> Still, we knew it was going to get a laugh, and be...how
> can I say this...culturally questionable. But still, I think
> the teacher WAY over reacted.
> 
> Just a thought.
> 
> Steve/bboyminn
>





From YasminOaks at aol.com  Thu May  8 15:43:23 2008
From: YasminOaks at aol.com (YasminOaks at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 11:43:23 EDT
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Spotted Dick & School...
Message-ID: <cea.31dea90c.3554799b@aol.com>

 
In a message dated 5/8/2008 10:38:49 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
mwood005 at comcast.net writes:

melody_wood14

The project was to " go the England" or one of the  other
countries on their list. Two kids went to each one. They 
had to  do 3 project, all were listed and how to do them.
They all had to do a  treasure box and the teacher explained
to them how to do it. Then pick 2  other projects. His were 
Food mat and scrap book. Each were done on poster  board 
and with food mat he had to bring food. He printed 3 
recipies  with pictures and brought spotted dick and 
lemon biscuts. I found they at  H.E.B. For the scrap book 
he had Euros and pictures from the internet as  well as 
some fact about Stonehenge, Woodhenge, Brown Willy and  
platform 9 3/4. Then had to do and oral presentation 
in class over  everything. It was there end of the 6 weeks
test grade so it counted for  20% of the 6 weeks grade.
He still passed the 6 weeks even with the low  grade. 
The teacher is out sick for the rest of the year,4
more weeks.  So I can not ask her to explain how she 
came up with the grade. Three out  five family members
liked the spotted dick at our house. It a house of  picky
eaters that is not bad odds. This type of project
is not new to us  every year from 1st grade on up he 
"taken a trip over seas". To all  teachers out there
it is a wonderful thing for them to do. Last year he  
"went to Egypt" for a month.He had a journel and wrote 
in it every day  what he did and what it cost. From 
the plane flight there to the flight  back home. He is 
a pre-teen boy, 12. I have had a conference with this  teacher 
for other reasons and she told that he reads to much sci-fi
and  needed to read more historical books. That his head was 
to high in the  sky. My answer to that was at least he reads
1 to 2 hours a night every  night. He has not had a good year 
this school year and thank goodness it  is almost over. I just
feel bad because this is the first time that I have  tried to
help him or that he has let me help him on a project. Normaly
I  buy the supplies and just watch him do it. So maybe it was my 
help that  hurt his grade. Well with the teacher gone we will
never know. He did say  that with all everyones input it made 
research easier so for that thank  you everyone. We liked the
project so we decided the grade was to harsh and  to forget
the grade it made. 

> >
>  





I think he did an outstanding job. I realize that the title of "spotted  
dick" could be a bit controversial, but I don't see anything wrong with his  
bringing this British desert into school. The name isn't dirty or wrong and is  
totally acceptable and used commonly in England. It is only going to make the  
children think that it is something bad or naughty with the teacher grading him  
so low due to this. She is only emphasizing that it could be considered rude 
in  this country. She didn't take into consideration what it really means. She 
only  shows her own ignorance and is very unfair. Your son worked hard on 
this project  and it really upsets me to read how he is being punished unfairly. 
He did  everything right and if the teacher found the name offensive then it 
is her  problem not his. 
 
It is even worse that she is out for the remainder of the school year.  Maybe 
she wasn't feeling well when she was grading and took it out on him  
unjustly. It is all so wrong. I feel so bad for your son.
 
I have to admit that after reading all of the posts about spotted dick that  
I bought a can of it from the store. It was imported from England. My daughter 
 microwaved it and my whole family (including my elderly parents) enjoyed it. 
It  was something we will have again. I loved the raisins in it. No one 
thought  anything of the name either, although it did make my 12 year old daughter 
smile.  It was a very nice British desert that we all enjoyed.
 
Hugs,
Cathy who loves any and all deserts.



**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family 
favorites at AOL Food.      
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From annemehr at yahoo.com  Thu May  8 18:10:53 2008
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (Annemehr)
Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 18:10:53 -0000
Subject: Spotted Dick & School...
In-Reply-To: <fvv384+5vro@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fvvfnd+sm1i@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "melody_wood14" 
<mwood005 at ...> wrote:
 
>       I have had a conference with this teacher 
>       for other reasons and she told that he reads to much sci-fi
>       and needed to read more historical books. That his head was 
>       to high in the sky. 

I wonder -- by historical books does she mean historical fiction, or 
flat-out history books?  I tend to avoid historical fiction, because 
when I'm done I never can quite tell the history from the fiction.

But it's the "head in the sky" comment that's really telling.  Sci-fi 
deals with ideas and what-ifs. Futuristic and otherworldly societies 
that are Not Like The Way We Live. She sounds like a deathly 
unimaginative sort.  Besides being a prude.

I'm inclined to think this is just a bad teacher.  Everyone gets one 
or two (hopefully no more!).  Maybe your son can look at it this way, 
and look forward to next year.  It's not like this grade is going on 
his college applications (though I understand that the unfairness 
rankles).

Maybe the substitute for the next few weeks will be really good, too, 
who knows?

Annemehr






From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Thu May  8 18:40:45 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 18:40:45 -0000
Subject: Inside, Outside, Near Lane, Far Lane, whatever...
In-Reply-To: <fvuv2a+g9sk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fvvhfd+kof4@eGroups.com>

Geoff wrote:
> I missed part of your sentence so I shall now rectify that. <snip>
> Allow me to give you a short lesson on the UK road classification
system. 
<snip>

Carol responds:
Thankks for the lesson on road classification in the UK, which was not
at all boring. The A and B classifications make perfect sense, and I
think that I understand what a "trunk road" is--an important road that
isn't a freeway, as we would call it, because it's not "fully
segregated. Would a "trunk road" have traffic lights and
intersections, then? I think it might correspond with a U.S. highway,
which has long stretches between towns where the traffic is
"segregated" by a median, but also stretches with traffic lights when
it passes through a town. (If you want to bypass the town, you take
the Interstate.)

Geoff:
> In 1959, the first motorways were opened; I believe these would 
correspond approximately to the US Interstates. They are fully
segregated dual carriageways - at least four lanes (two each side)
with a central reservation, <snip>

Carol:
Probably. The Interstates are undoubtedly much longer, though, as they
extend clear across the continental U.S. (or from the Canadian border
to the Mexican border going north/south). East/west routes have even
numbers; north/south/routes have odd ones (though, confusingly, I-10,
which extends from Santa Monica, California, to Jacksonville, Florida,
has a long (120-mile) north/south stretch between Phoenix and Tucson,
and I'm sure that other interstates have similar stretches, at least
in the sparsely populated western states. I-40, which runs from
Barstow, California (one of the most desolate places in the world, or
at least it was when I had to go through it as a child or stay in the
awful old motels they had then) to Wilmingon, North Carolina, goes
right past Flagstaff, Arizona, where I grew up. Of course, many people
would take the exit into the city since the next town of any size in
either direction is about fifty miles away. I meant to say that I'40
runs nearly straight east and west at a latitude of 35 degrees North,
and for much of its length parallels the legendary Route 66, the
subject of a song and a 1960s TV show:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Interstate_40_map.png

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Route_66_map.PNG 

Geoff:

They have grade-separated interchanges, hard shoulders for emergencies
and dedicated service areas.

Carol:
"Dedicated service areas"???? I'm getting a headache: UK government
jargon is as bad as ours in the U.S.

Geoff: 
> Many important A roads have been upgraded but do not always have
full segregation or dual carriageways. <snip>

Carol:
"Dual carriageways" means two lanes going the same direction, so a
road with dual carriageways would have four lanes, right?

Just for fun, as I was thinking about driving all over the UK in
comparison with even attempting a similar feat in the U.S, I did a
Google search to find out which U.S. state the UK most closely matches
in total area. Unfortunately, the results were quite literally all
over the map (England alone can't simultaneously be the same size as
Alabama, Michigan, Oregon, and Rhode Island!). I decided that a
comparison of actual land area would be more accurate:

Great Britain: 94,200 square miles
Arizona: 114,006 square miles
Continental U.S. (excluding Alaska and Hawaii): 3,787,000 square miles

Carol, wondering whether Geoff knows that London Bridge is now in Arizona





From annemehr at yahoo.com  Thu May  8 18:57:39 2008
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (Annemehr)
Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 18:57:39 -0000
Subject: Inside, Outside, Near Lane, Far Lane, whatever...
In-Reply-To: <fvvhfd+kof4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fvvif3+hpj0@eGroups.com>

 
> Geoff:
> 
> They have grade-separated interchanges, hard shoulders for emergencies
> and dedicated service areas.
> 
> Carol:
> "Dedicated service areas"???? I'm getting a headache: UK government
> jargon is as bad as ours in the U.S.
> 

Annemehr:

Must be a rest stop.  Some are very basic -- just restrooms and maybe 
pay phones.  Most include a gas station, restaurant(s), restrooms, and 
a place to walk you dog.

Around where I live, we only have those on toll roads such as the 
Pennsylvania Turnpike.  They have them every so often along the road so 
that you can get gas, eat, etc., without having to exit the highway, 
pay toll, do your stuff, and then get a new toll ticket getting back 
on.  Freeways tend not to have them -- you just exit and hit a regular 
gas station or Burger King.




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Thu May  8 21:07:19 2008
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 21:07:19 -0000
Subject: Inside, Outside, Near Lane, Far Lane, whatever...
In-Reply-To: <fvvhfd+kof4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <fvvq27+j2dd@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:
 
Carol:
> Thankks for the lesson on road classification in the UK, which was not
> at all boring. The A and B classifications make perfect sense, and I
> think that I understand what a "trunk road" is--an important road that
> isn't a freeway, as we would call it, because it's not "fully
> segregated. Would a "trunk road" have traffic lights and
> intersections, then? I think it might correspond with a U.S. highway,
> which has long stretches between towns where the traffic is
> "segregated" by a median, but also stretches with traffic lights when
> it passes through a town. (If you want to bypass the town, you take
> the Interstate.)

Geoff:
Trunk roads can vary quite a lot. At best, the standard is close to that 
of the M and A(M) roads, often with grade-separated interchanges and 
dual carriageways but retaining flat junctions with minor side roads 
and some junctions covered by roundabouts. Some are relatively 
unmodernised, designated as trunk rods because of their importance
in the network.

> Geoff (earlier):
> > In 1959, the first motorways were opened; I believe these would 
> correspond approximately to the US Interstates. They are fully
> segregated dual carriageways - at least four lanes (two each side)
> with a central reservation, <snip>
> 
> Carol:
> Probably. The Interstates are undoubtedly much longer, though, as they
> extend clear across the continental U.S. (or from the Canadian border
> to the Mexican border going north/south). East/west routes have even
> numbers; north/south/routes have odd ones (though, confusingly, I-10,
> which extends from Santa Monica, California, to Jacksonville, Florida,
> has a long (120-mile) north/south stretch between Phoenix and Tucson,
> and I'm sure that other interstates have similar stretches, at least
> in the sparsely populated western states. 

Geoff:
Some years ago, I read a very interesting article in National Geographic 
about the Interstate system which included some of your data.

Geoff (earlier):
> 
> They have grade-separated interchanges, hard shoulders for emergencies
> and dedicated service areas.
 
> Carol:
> "Dedicated service areas"???? I'm getting a headache: UK government
> jargon is as bad as ours in the U.S.

Geoff:
Annemehr has hit it in a separate post. Service areas are quite common 
on main roads especially away from towns and usually include parking, 
fuel, shops, restaurants, fast food outlets, toilets - even showers in 
some case. The older ones tend to be a bit spartan in their appearance 
but many have been refurbished and one or two excellent new ones have 
appeared recently.

I used the word dedicated because these particular service areas are only 
accessible to motorway traffic.

Geoff (earlier): 
> > Many important A roads have been upgraded but do not always have
> full segregation or dual carriageways. <snip>
 
> Carol:
> "Dual carriageways" means two lanes going the same direction, so a
> road with dual carriageways would have four lanes, right?

Geoff:
We would refer to these as four lane dual carriageways. most motorways 
were built to six-lane specifications and one or two very early four-lane 
sections were widened. I did comment in any earlier post that a lot of the 
M25 London Orbital has been widened to eight-lane. Interesting to 
compare with your mileage figures, the M25 is 120 miles long but is 
never more than about 25 miles from the centre of London. 

It has been jokingly nicknamed the London Orbital Car Park by some 
users because of traffic jams at rush hours. However, management 
improvements including variable speed limits have helped a lot. I use 
it reasonably often when we go down to see our daughter and our new 
granddaughter; I have to cover about 35 miles along it and usually 
manage to do this at a steady 70+ mph without too many delays.

> Carol, wondering whether Geoff knows that London Bridge is now 
in Arizona

Geoff:
I do, I do. A bit of a change from getting of a tram when I was a boy 
to reach London Bridge.






From miles at martinbraeutigam.de  Fri May  9 00:10:30 2008
From: miles at martinbraeutigam.de (Miles)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 02:10:30 +0200
Subject: Book recommendations?
References: <fvjd8g+okpv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00da01c8b169$18326f20$15b2a8c0@miles>

Some German recommendations:

the old one: Heinrich Heine: Deutschland. Ein Wintermrchen (Germany. A 
Winter's tale) - an ironical verse-epic on Germany of about 1840

the new one: Patrick Sskind: Das Parfum - Die Geschichte eines Mrders 
(Perfume: The Story of a Murderer) - if 1985 counts as new.

the influential one: Johann Wolfgang Goethe: Die Leiden des jungen Werthers 
(The Sorrows of Young Werther) - a must-have-read for German literature. 
Most important for the Sturm und Drang period of German literature, and an 
extremely popular book in the 18th/19th century. It still is widely known, 
quoted and used in modern literature.

I checked, all these books are available in English ;). 




From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Fri May  9 01:47:12 2008
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 01:47:12 -0000
Subject: Book recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <00da01c8b169$18326f20$15b2a8c0@miles>
Message-ID: <g00af0+j3qj@eGroups.com>

Milse:
> the new one: Patrick S?skind: Das Parfum - Die Geschichte eines 
M?rders 
> (Perfume: The Story of a Murderer) - if 1985 counts as new.

Magpie:
I definitely liked this one!

-m




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Fri May  9 02:13:16 2008
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 02:13:16 -0000
Subject: Spotted Dick & School...
In-Reply-To: <cea.31dea90c.3554799b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <g00bvs+4pun@eGroups.com>

 
> melody_wood14
 His were 
> Food mat and scrap book. Each were done on poster  board 
> and with food mat he had to bring food. He printed 3 
> recipies  with pictures and brought spotted dick and 
> lemon biscuts. I found they at  H.E.B. For the scrap book 
> he had Euros and pictures from the internet as  well as 
> some fact about Stonehenge, Woodhenge, Brown Willy and  
> platform 9 3/4. 

Potioncat:
Then again...
Brown Willy and Spotted dick in the same report?

I'm surprised he got any points at all!

Honestly, this teacher just sounds horrible. No sense of humor, rigid 
ideas. Her name isn't Deloris Umbridge is it?




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Fri May  9 06:35:25 2008
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 06:35:25 -0000
Subject: Spotted Dick & School...
In-Reply-To: <g00bvs+4pun@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g00rbd+72fp@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at ...> wrote:
>
>  
> > melody_wood14
>  His were 
> > Food mat and scrap book. Each were done on poster  board 
> > and with food mat he had to bring food. He printed 3 
> > recipies  with pictures and brought spotted dick and 
> > lemon biscuts. I found they at  H.E.B. For the scrap book 
> > he had Euros and pictures from the internet as  well as 
> > some fact about Stonehenge, Woodhenge, Brown Willy and  
> > platform 9 3/4. 
> 
> Potioncat:
> Then again...
> Brown Willy and Spotted dick in the same report?
> 
> I'm surprised he got any points at all!
> 
> Honestly, this teacher just sounds horrible. No sense of humor, rigid 
> ideas. Her name isn't Deloris Umbridge is it?

Geoff:
Should be told that any self-respecting Brit could sit on 
Brown Willy and eat spotted dick - the latter probably cold 
and in a sandwich <g>.

I've climbed Brown Willy quite happily in the past..






From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri May  9 16:29:37 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 16:29:37 -0000
Subject: Inside, Outside, Near Lane, Far Lane, whatever...
In-Reply-To: <fvvif3+hpj0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g01u5h+8nj4@eGroups.com>

Geoff:
> > 
> > They have grade-separated interchanges, hard shoulders for
emergencies and dedicated service areas.
> > 
> > Carol:
> > "Dedicated service areas"???? I'm getting a headache: UK
government jargon is as bad as ours in the U.S.
> > 
> 
> Annemehr:
> 
> Must be a rest stop.  Some are very basic -- just restrooms and
maybe pay phones.  Most include a gas station, restaurant(s),
restrooms, and a place to walk you dog.
> 
> Around where I live, we only have those on toll roads such as the 
Pennsylvania Turnpike.  They have them every so often along the road
so that you can get gas, eat, etc., without having to exit the
highway, pay toll, do your stuff, and then get a new toll ticket
getting back on.  Freeways tend not to have them -- you just exit and
hit a regular gas station or Burger King.

Carolagain:

Thanks. That makes sense, but I still hate the jargon term! Why such
vague, euphemistic language? Then again, "rest area" is a euphemism,
too, but at least it's plain English.

We don't have many fancy rest areas in Arizona. Most have just
restrooms, drinking fountains, and pay phones. A few have picnic
tables and scenic overlooks (Sunset Point, for example). I know of
exactly one with a gas station, or maybe it's a diesel station for
trucks. I was always more interested in the, erm, "facilities," rather
like Dumbledore with his chamber pots in the RoR! It's a long drive
from Phoenix to Tucson (120 miles) and twice that from Flagstaff to
Tucson, with lots of wide-open spaces with only desert or farmland, so
the rest stops are very necessary. There are, of course, a few towns
in between the major cities, but they're off the freeway a little
distance. 

As for toll roads, I'd never even seen one until I went back East at
age twenty. It might have been the Pennsylvania Turnpike. Does that
loop around Washington, D.C.?

Carol, who would never make the drive to the more northern parts of
the state if the state had the nerve to charge her for it!




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri May  9 16:38:39 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 16:38:39 -0000
Subject: Book recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <00da01c8b169$18326f20$15b2a8c0@miles>
Message-ID: <g01umf+l7ig@eGroups.com>

Miles wrote:
>
> Some German recommendations:
<snip>
> the influential one: Johann Wolfgang Goethe: Die Leiden des jungen
Werthers (The Sorrows of Young Werther) - a must-have-read for German
literature. Most important for the Sturm und Drang period of German
literature, and an extremely popular book in the 18th/19th century. It
still is widely known, quoted and used in modern literature.
> 
> I checked, all these books are available in English ;).

Carol responds:

"Werther" greatly influenced the English Romantics and their Victorian
successors. It's a classic Bildungsroman. Wasn't it the first novel in
that genre, Miles?

Carol, who read it in English for a course in Romanticism





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri May  9 17:10:44 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 17:10:44 -0000
Subject: Spotted Dick & School...
In-Reply-To: <g00rbd+72fp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g020ik+ru5t@eGroups.com>

Geoff:
> Should be told that any self-respecting Brit could sit on Brown
Willy and eat spotted dick - the latter probably cold and in a
sandwich <g>.
> 
> I've climbed Brown Willy quite happily in the past..

Carol responds:

I take it that Brown Willy is a hill? And spotted dick in a sandwich?
I thought that it was a dessert.

Do I dare confess that Arizona has a hill or small mountain that used
to be called, in the rough days of the Old West, Squaw Tit because of
its color and shape. (I'm tempted to replace the "i" with an asterisk,
but I'm trying not to be prudish!) The name was later changed to Squaw
Peak, but even that name was criticized as politically incorrect. It
was recently changed again to Piestewa Peak in honor of a Hopi soldier
named Lori Piestewa (pronounced py-ess-tuh-wah), who died in Iraq in
2003. At least the new name alliterates (though I wonder if the people
who renamed it know the original name, which they wouldn't want
associated with Private Piestewa). I'm surprised that it didn't become
something innocuous and bland like Brown Hill, but I guess that they
wanted to honor an American Indian (Native American) woman to undo the
indignity associated with the term "squaw."

Sidenote on Dolores Umbridge: I used to have trouble spelling her
first name (I wanted to make it "Delores") until I started associating
it with "dolor" (mental anguish or grief). I still tend to spell
Umbridge as "umbrage," I suppose because I take umbrage at her actions!

Carol, realizing that the Squaw Peak example doesn't represent British
and American linguistic differences, but it does illustrate modern
American sensibilities probably shared by the teacher in question




From miles at martinbraeutigam.de  Fri May  9 17:12:17 2008
From: miles at martinbraeutigam.de (Miles)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 19:12:17 +0200
Subject: Book recommendations?
References: <g01umf+l7ig@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <008e01c8b1f7$d5eac330$15b2a8c0@miles>

Carol wrote:

> "Werther" greatly influenced the English Romantics and their Victorian
> successors. It's a classic Bildungsroman. Wasn't it the first novel in
> that genre, Miles?
>
> Carol, who read it in English for a course in Romanticism

Miles:
Well, not really a Bildungsroman, since it ends with the suicide of the main 
character ;), so it's not a story of becoming mature, but of refusing to do 
so.
According to Wikipedia, German Romantics in literature is what is called 
"Sturm und Drang" (might best be translated "storm and longing", and a 
special hello to Durmstrang). It was not the first, but is maybe the best 
novel in that genre.

Anyway, it still reads "fresh" in German, some old-fashioned words, but the 
language feels very modern, after about 240 years quite a surprise.

I'm afraid that most people in the English and German speaking countries are 
not that much aware of the connections of our literature traditions. Many 
English classics mentioned here or elsewhere I've never heard of, I read 
only few in translations and even fewer in the original - while I know quite 
a lot of German classics (at least considering my generation).

Speaking of traditions, upthread

Carol wrote:
> I have reread and would recommend the Bible (must reading for
> anyone who wants to be culturally literate with regard to Western
> culture regardless of religion or the absence thereof, and for sheer
> beauty and poetry and effect on Western culture, I would recommend the
> King James version. If your concern is an accurate translation, try a
> more recent one).

Miles again:
English speaking countries are not the only sources of "Western culture", 
and Bible translations are important for the development of many modern 
languages in "our" countries. I don't doubt you know this well enough, I 
just sort of stumbled over your generalization. What I think is true for the 
King James translation and English, is maybe even more true for German and 
the Martin Luther translation. Luther and his "High German" variation from 
Saxony became standard for orthography and punctuation, and is the source 
for modern German since today.

Miles, still coughing due to very much classical dust on his bookshelves 




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Fri May  9 17:14:16 2008
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 17:14:16 -0000
Subject: Sci-fi books serious enough or not WAS: Re: Spotted Dick & School...
In-Reply-To: <fvvfnd+sm1i@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g020p8+isng@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Annemehr" <annemehr at ...> wrote:
>> But it's the "head in the sky" comment that's really telling.  Sci-
fi 
> deals with ideas and what-ifs. Futuristic and otherworldly societies 
> that are Not Like The Way We Live. She sounds like a deathly 
> unimaginative sort.  Besides being a prude.
> <SNIP>


Alla:

Your comment made me think about how sci-fi and fantasy books often 
viewed by literary snobs as not "real" literature, not "serious" enough 
literature, etc.

And of course I saw plenty of bad examples of such books, some of them 
I finished, some of them I did not. But same holds true for "realistic" 
fiction, me thinks. There are plenty of bad ones out there 
unfortunately, so it just always made me wonder how the whole genre can 
be condoned, you know?

It is an aside of course.




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Fri May  9 17:16:57 2008
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 17:16:57 -0000
Subject: Book recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <g00af0+j3qj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g020u9+84eu@eGroups.com>

> Milse:
> > the new one: Patrick S?skind: Das Parfum - Die Geschichte eines 
> M?rders 
> > (Perfume: The Story of a Murderer) - if 1985 counts as new.
> 
> Magpie:
> I definitely liked this one!

Alla:

I respect this book as unusual and very well written, it feels that way 
even in the translation, but gross, omg sooo gross if you ask me.

It is on the shelves that I respect but will not touch again ever :-)

JMO,

Alla.




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri May  9 18:44:33 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 18:44:33 -0000
Subject: Book recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <008e01c8b1f7$d5eac330$15b2a8c0@miles>
Message-ID: <g0262h+7s3k@eGroups.com>

Carol earlier:
> 
> > "Werther" greatly influenced the English Romantics and their
Victorian successors. It's a classic Bildungsroman. Wasn't it the
first novel in that genre, Miles?
> >
> > Carol, who read it in English for a course in Romanticism
> 
> Miles:
> Well, not really a Bildungsroman, since it ends with the suicide of
the main character ;), so it's not a story of becoming mature, but of
refusing to do so. <snip?

Carol responds:
My mistake. I was thinking of the Wilhelm Meister novels, especially
the first one, which is generally regarded as the prototypical
Bildungsroman. It's been a very long time since I took that class!

Miles: 
> I'm afraid that most people in the English and German speaking
countries are  not that much aware of the connections of our
literature traditions. Many English classics mentioned here or
elsewhere I've never heard of, I read only few in translations and
even fewer in the original - while I know quite a lot of German
classics (at least considering my generation).

Carol:
Maybe it's a failure of modern education, at least in the U.S.
Languages, literature, and history before the Civil Rights movement
are out of fashion here, with the emphasis placed on
"multiculturalism" and on "important" subjects, such as math and
science. Or that's the impression I got when I was still teaching
freshman composition.

Miles: 
> Speaking of traditions, upthread
> 
> Carol wrote:
> > I have reread and would recommend the Bible (must reading for
anyone who wants to be culturally literate with regard to Western
culture regardless of religion or the absence thereof, and for sheer
beauty and poetry and effect on Western culture, I would recommend the
King James version. If your concern is an accurate translation, try a
more recent one).
> 
> Miles again:
> English speaking countries are not the only sources of "Western
culture", and Bible translations are important for the development of
many modern languages in "our" countries. I don't doubt you know this
well enough, I just sort of stumbled over your generalization. What I
think is true for the King James translation and English, is maybe
even more true for German and the Martin Luther translation. Luther
and his "High German" variation from Saxony became standard for
orthography and punctuation, and is the source for modern German since
today. <snip>

Carol responds:

Yes. I realized how that remark must sound and corrected myself later
in the thread:

"I'm just stating that the King James Bible, specifically, is a
literary and cultural treasure even for those outside the Christian
faith, and its impact on British and American language and literature
is probably incalculable. I'm talking about the beauty of the language
and the importance of this particular translation to Western
civilization (I should amend that to the culture and literature of
English-speaking countries)."

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/36403

To be clear, I meant that the Bible is an important cultural influence
on all of Western culture, and the King James translation is
particularly influential in English-speaking countries. I certainly
didn't mean to exclude other important translations! Unfortunately,
many of us on this list don't read German, so we can't read the German
translation despite the importance of Martin Luther to the Protestant
tradition, but we can all read English and consequently appreciate the
beauty of the King James translation.

Carol, who thinks that new languages should be taught to children of
six or seven, whose brains are more receptive than those of teenagers
to that sort of learning






From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri May  9 18:55:25 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 18:55:25 -0000
Subject: What's wrong with the main list?
Message-ID: <g026mt+dik3@eGroups.com>

Does anyone know why it's been so hard to access the main list for the
last two days? It can't be my computer or browser; I'm almost the only
one posting! None of the other groups seems to be affected.

Carol, who lost one post and keeps having to reload the pages only to
find nothing new to read




From jaynesmith62 at btinternet.com  Fri May  9 20:40:39 2008
From: jaynesmith62 at btinternet.com (Jayne)
Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 20:40:39 -0000
Subject: Book recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <g00af0+j3qj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g02cs7+k585@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "sistermagpie" 
<sistermagpie at ...> wrote:
>
> Milse:
> > the new one: Patrick S?skind: Das Parfum - Die Geschichte eines 
> M?rders 
> > (Perfume: The Story of a Murderer) - if 1985 counts as new.
> 
> Magpie:
> I definitely liked this one!
> 
> -m

>Please can I drop in to this discussion?

I would like to recomend a superb book, especially if you love History
as much as I do
"King Hereafter" by Dorothy Dunnett (The best historical writer in 
the last hundred years IMHO)
This is her story of Macbeth and it is fab,
She has also written 2 fantastic Historical series called The Lymond 
Chronicles and The House of Niccolo.These are based in 14th and 
fifteenth centurys in Europe and Turkey.

Jayne






From jaynesmith62 at btinternet.com  Fri May  9 20:40:44 2008
From: jaynesmith62 at btinternet.com (Jayne)
Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 20:40:44 -0000
Subject: Book recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <g00af0+j3qj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g02csc+502m@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "sistermagpie" 
<sistermagpie at ...> wrote:
>
> Milse:
> > the new one: Patrick S?skind: Das Parfum - Die Geschichte eines 
> M?rders 
> > (Perfume: The Story of a Murderer) - if 1985 counts as new.
> 
> Magpie:
> I definitely liked this one!
> 
> -m

>Please can I drop in to this discussion?

I would like to recomend a superb book, especially if you love History
as much as I do
"King Hereafter" by Dorothy Dunnett (The best historical writer in 
the last hundred years IMHO)
This is her story of Macbeth and it is fab,
She has also written 2 fantastic Historical series called The Lymond 
Chronicles and The House of Niccolo.These are based in 14th and 
fifteenth centurys in Europe and Turkey.

Jayne






From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Fri May  9 21:04:40 2008
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 21:04:40 -0000
Subject: Book recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <g02csc+502m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g02e98+kprk@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Jayne" <jaynesmith62 at ...> 
wrote:
> >Please can I drop in to this discussion?
> 
> I would like to recomend a superb book, especially if you love History
> as much as I do
> "King Hereafter" by Dorothy Dunnett (The best historical writer in 
> the last hundred years IMHO)
> This is her story of Macbeth and it is fab,
> She has also written 2 fantastic Historical series called The Lymond 
> Chronicles and The House of Niccolo.These are based in 14th and 
> fifteenth centurys in Europe and Turkey.
> 
> Jayne
>


Alla:

Oh Oh The Lymmond Chronicles. I definitely second that recommendation. 
I personally find Dunnett's writing style a bit too wordy, but 
characters are wonderful.

And Lymmond is another Snape like character in a sense that I like :-)

Thanks Betsy who recommended these books to me originally.




From jaynesmith62 at btinternet.com  Fri May  9 21:09:15 2008
From: jaynesmith62 at btinternet.com (Jayne)
Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 21:09:15 -0000
Subject: Book recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <g02e98+kprk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g02ehr+pqgp@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" 
<dumbledore11214 at ...> wrote:
>
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Jayne" <jaynesmith62@> 
> wrote:
> > >Please can I drop in to this discussion?
> > 
> > I would like to recomend a superb book, especially if you love 
History
> > as much as I do
> > "King Hereafter" by Dorothy Dunnett (The best historical writer 
in 
> > the last hundred years IMHO)
> > This is her story of Macbeth and it is fab,
> > She has also written 2 fantastic Historical series called The 
Lymond 
> > Chronicles and The House of Niccolo.These are based in 14th and 
> > fifteenth centurys in Europe and Turkey.
> > 
> > Jayne
> >
> 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Oh Oh The Lymmond Chronicles. I definitely second that 
recommendation. 
> I personally find Dunnett's writing style a bit too wordy, but 
> characters are wonderful.
> 
> And Lymmond is another Snape like character in a sense that I 
like :-)
> 
> Thanks Betsy who recommended these books to me originally.
>
Oh no . Lymond is a nicer character IMHO than Snape Alla. Have you 
read The House OF Niccolo by Dorothy Dunnett as mentioned above. I 
prefer that series.?

Jayne  




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Fri May  9 21:18:17 2008
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 21:18:17 -0000
Subject: Spotted Dick & School...
In-Reply-To: <g020ik+ru5t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g02f2p+cmma@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:
>
> Geoff:
> > Should be told that any self-respecting Brit could sit on Brown
> Willy and eat spotted dick - the latter probably cold and in a
> sandwich <g>.
> > 
> > I've climbed Brown Willy quite happily in the past..

Carol: 
> I take it that Brown Willy is a hill? 

Geoff:
Indeed. It is the highest point in Cornwall - 1377 feet.

Carol:
> And spotted dick in a sandwich?
> I thought that it was a dessert.

Geoff:
Carol!! There was a <g> in that sentence. Of course it's a dessert.




From jillily3g at yahoo.com  Fri May  9 21:22:47 2008
From: jillily3g at yahoo.com (Beth)
Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 21:22:47 -0000
Subject: Pardon Pastor's French
Message-ID: <g02fb7+d154@eGroups.com>

My subject line may be unnecessary, but it was too fun to pass up!

I work on projected screens for worship each week, so I get service
information ahead of time. (Not nearly early enough in my opinion, but
that's another topic...) This week, we got a last minute change in
sermon title -- "Parler un noveau langage"-- to go with Pentecost, it
would seem. 

So, I realized that twenty years has made my understanding of French
beyond rusty, but it looked wrong to me. I'm sure it's too late to do
anything about the bulletins, but if this isn't correct, would someone
be willing to help me fix it so I can make it right on the screens?
(And if it is right, Pastor never needs to know I questioned her
translation ;-))

Thanks,
Beth




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Fri May  9 21:26:00 2008
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 21:26:00 -0000
Subject: Book recommendations?/ Lymond chronicles spoilers
In-Reply-To: <g02ehr+pqgp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g02fh8+d6o8@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Jayne" <jaynesmith62 at ...> 
wrote:
>> Oh no . Lymond is a nicer character IMHO than Snape Alla. Have you 
> read The House OF Niccolo by Dorothy Dunnett as mentioned above. I 
> prefer that series.?
> 
> Jayne
>


Alla:

Oh I agree that Lymond is nicer, although I would say that he is quite 
sarcastic, but I do not remember him disparaging kittens and children.

I think he reminds me of Snape in a sense of his loyalties being a 
question mark till the end.

I have not read The House of Niccolo, but it is definitely on my 
reading list :)




From miles at martinbraeutigam.de  Fri May  9 21:34:12 2008
From: miles at martinbraeutigam.de (Miles)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 23:34:12 +0200
Subject: Book recommendations?
References: <g0262h+7s3k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00c601c8b21c$6cf6c840$15b2a8c0@miles>

Carol wrote:
> To be clear, I meant that the Bible is an important cultural influence
> on all of Western culture, and the King James translation is
> particularly influential in English-speaking countries. I certainly
> didn't mean to exclude other important translations! Unfortunately,
> many of us on this list don't read German, so we can't read the German
> translation despite the importance of Martin Luther to the Protestant
> tradition, but we can all read English and consequently appreciate the
> beauty of the King James translation.

Miles
I took no offence or whatever, I didn't doubt your intention in the initial 
post.
But I think your point brings us to a very important issue: Translation of 
literature.
While bible translations are in the scope of many scientists, who try to 
understand words, text history and so on, the quality of the translations of 
works of fiction is quite often questionable.

About two or three years ago, I began to (re)read Agatha Christie novels. 
After reading them in German many years ago, I read them in English now - 
and these are quite different books. The German translations are awful. The 
publisher who bought the rights is a bad one, known for cheap books (in 
terms of both paper and text). They translate the plot alright, but they do 
not even try to catch the language, the irony, or the wording - and that 
really is a pity.

Not really bad: the Harry Potter translations. But still it doesn't feel 
"right" for me to read the one German translation (GoF) I have. The problem 
with Rowling are the many puns that are difficult, if not impossible to 
translate. For example, to make "I am Lord Voldemort" work, the translator 
renamed Tom "Vorlost" Riddle (don't ask, that's not a name).

What you need is a really good author as a translator. Only few of them do 
translate - not least because the payment is poor. I don't know about 
translator fees in the UK or US, but when I once read about what they get 
here in Germany, I didn't know whether to laugh or cry. There are few 
exceptions. German Nobel prize winner Heinrich Bll translated The Catcher 
in the Rye, famous Austrian poet Erich Fried translated many Shakespeare 
plays (keeping them very ... juicy). But most translators aren't authors of 
own fiction at all.

> Carol, who thinks that new languages should be taught to children of
> six or seven, whose brains are more receptive than those of teenagers
> to that sort of learning

Right you are. That seems to be the only realistic way to really let them 
enjoy literature of other part of the world - not the only advantage of 
knowing more than one language, but not the least.

Miles, who started his second language English much later (aged ten) and 
still has to work on it, and misses a third language very much (I do not 
count Latin...) 




From annemehr at yahoo.com  Fri May  9 21:53:15 2008
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (Annemehr)
Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 21:53:15 -0000
Subject: Pardon Pastor's French
In-Reply-To: <g02fb7+d154@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g02h4b+ae3c@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Beth" <jillily3g at ...> wrote:
>
> My subject line may be unnecessary, but it was too fun to pass up!
> 
> I work on projected screens for worship each week, so I get service
> information ahead of time. (Not nearly early enough in my opinion, 
but
> that's another topic...) This week, we got a last minute change in
> sermon title -- "Parler un noveau langage"-- to go with Pentecost, 
it
> would seem. 
> 
> So, I realized that twenty years has made my understanding of French
> beyond rusty, but it looked wrong to me. I'm sure it's too late to 
do
> anything about the bulletins, but if this isn't correct, would 
someone
> be willing to help me fix it so I can make it right on the screens?
> (And if it is right, Pastor never needs to know I questioned her
> translation ;-))
> 
> Thanks,
> Beth
>

Well, in French, there's the masculine word langage, and the feminine 
langue.  I'm pretty sure it's "une langue" your pastor wants in this 
case.  "Langage" would be used for saying "watch your language!" 
whereas "langue" is for "a foreign language."  But it would be good 
if someone wants to confirm this! 

"Parler" is the infinitive: to speak.

So, "To speak a new language" would be "Parler une langue nouvelle."

And "Speak a new language" would be "Parlez une langue nouvelle."

"Let's speak a new language" would be "Parlons une langue nouvelle."

Note the adjective follows the noun.

Hope this helps!

Annemehr





From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Fri May  9 22:46:05 2008
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 22:46:05 -0000
Subject: Rumors of Lane Changes in the UK
Message-ID: <g02k7d+efn9@eGroups.com>

Sorry, to dwell on this topic, but I vaguely heard a rumor that
the UK was thinking of changing the side of the road that it
dives on. Any truth to that?

I believe Swede has already done it. As I remember at 12 noon
one day the police went out to every intersection and stopped
traffic, and directed them to the opposite lane. Seems like
a daunting task.

So, to anyone in the UK, have you heard these rumors, and is
there any truth to them?

I think perhaps one of the reasons might be to standardize
automobiles around the world. How many other countries still
drive on the 'wrong' side of the road? 

Just curious.

Steve/bboyminn




From miles at martinbraeutigam.de  Fri May  9 22:49:04 2008
From: miles at martinbraeutigam.de (Miles)
Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 00:49:04 +0200
Subject: Rumors of Lane Changes in the UK
References: <g02k7d+efn9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00d501c8b226$e2800040$15b2a8c0@miles>

Steve wrote:
> Sorry, to dwell on this topic, but I vaguely heard a rumor that
> the UK was thinking of changing the side of the road that it
> dives on. Any truth to that?
>
> I believe Swede has already done it. As I remember at 12 noon
> one day the police went out to every intersection and stopped
> traffic, and directed them to the opposite lane. Seems like
> a daunting task.
>
> So, to anyone in the UK, have you heard these rumors, and is
> there any truth to them?
>
> I think perhaps one of the reasons might be to standardize
> automobiles around the world. How many other countries still
> drive on the 'wrong' side of the road?

Miles
Well, Japan seems to be the most important one, India is another. As always, 
wikipedia provides the answer - and a map:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_directionality#Places_where_traffic_keeps_to_the_left 




From yahoo at watch.renals.co.uk  Fri May  9 23:08:11 2008
From: yahoo at watch.renals.co.uk (Olly)
Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 00:08:11 +0100
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Rumors of Lane Changes in the UK
In-Reply-To: <00d501c8b226$e2800040$15b2a8c0@miles>
References: <g02k7d+efn9@eGroups.com> <00d501c8b226$e2800040$15b2a8c0@miles>
Message-ID: <4824D95B.8050009@watch.renals.co.uk>

> Steve wrote:
>> Sorry, to dwell on this topic, but I vaguely heard a rumor that
>> the UK was thinking of changing the side of the road that it
>> dives on. Any truth to that?
>>
>> I believe Swede has already done it. As I remember at 12 noon
>> one day the police went out to every intersection and stopped
>> traffic, and directed them to the opposite lane. Seems like
>> a daunting task.
>>
>> So, to anyone in the UK, have you heard these rumors, and is
>> there any truth to them?
>>
>> I think perhaps one of the reasons might be to standardize
>> automobiles around the world. How many other countries still
>> drive on the 'wrong' side of the road?
>
> Miles wrote:
> Miles
> Well, Japan seems to be the most important one, India is another. As 
> always,
> wikipedia provides the answer - and a map:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_directionality#Places_where_traffic_keeps_to_the_left 
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_directionality#Places_where_traffic_keeps_to_the_left>

Olly
There have been no rumours that the UK is changing the side of the road we
drive on.  However, there are talks about making the driving test harder,
so naturally that also means that it will cost more.




From jillily3g at yahoo.com  Fri May  9 23:20:21 2008
From: jillily3g at yahoo.com (Beth)
Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 23:20:21 -0000
Subject: Pardon Pastor's French
In-Reply-To: <g02h4b+ae3c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g02m7l+8tk2@eGroups.com>



Beth (me) wrote:
My subject line may be unnecessary, but it was too fun to pass up!

I work on projected screens for worship each week, so I get service
information ahead of time. (Not nearly early enough in my opinion, 
but that's another topic...) This week, we got a last minute change in
sermon title -- "Parler un noveau langage"-- to go with Pentecost, 
it would seem. 

So, I realized that twenty years has made my understanding of French
beyond rusty, but it looked wrong to me. I'm sure it's too late to do
anything about the bulletins, but if this isn't correct, would 
someone be willing to help me fix it so I can make it right on the
screens?


Annemehr replied:
Well, in French, there's the masculine word langage, and the feminine
 langue.  I'm pretty sure it's "une langue" your pastor wants in this
 case.  "Langage" would be used for saying "watch your language!" 
whereas "langue" is for "a foreign language."  But it would be good if
someone wants to confirm this! 

"Parler" is the infinitive: to speak.

So, "To speak a new language" would be "Parler une langue nouvelle."

And "Speak a new language" would be "Parlez une langue nouvelle."

"Let's speak a new language" would be "Parlons une langue nouvelle."

Note the adjective follows the noun.

Hope this helps!

Annemehr


Beth (me) again:
Thank you! I'm happy to know that your first translation was where my
old brain was going, but I wasn't sure about the adjective placement.
I couldn't remember which adjectives were exceptions to the rule. I
guess I'll have to email her after all to find out if she wants that
imperative form or not. 

Thanks so much,
Beth




From leekaiwen at yahoo.com  Fri May  9 23:59:40 2008
From: leekaiwen at yahoo.com (Lee Kaiwen)
Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 07:59:40 +0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Spotted Dick & School...
In-Reply-To: <g020ik+ru5t@eGroups.com>
References: <g020ik+ru5t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4824E56C.2010609@yahoo.com>

Carol responds:

> Do I dare confess that Arizona has a hill ... called
 > Squaw Tit

I'm surprised no one has called out the more famous example -- Grand 
Teton in Wyoming, which, as any self-respecting, hormonally active, male 
teenage student of French will tell you, means -- well, exactly what it 
appears to mean :-)

CJ




From kempermentor at yahoo.com  Sat May 10 00:26:29 2008
From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kempermentor)
Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 00:26:29 -0000
Subject: Spotted Dick & School...
In-Reply-To: <4824E56C.2010609@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <g02q3l+rqvs@eGroups.com>


> Carol responds:
> 
> > Do I dare confess that Arizona has a hill ... called
> > Squaw Tit

> CJ:
> I'm surprised no one has called out the more famous example -- Grand 
> Teton in Wyoming, which, as any self-respecting, 
> hormonally active, male 
> teenage student of French will tell you, means 
> -- well, exactly what it appears to mean :-)

Kemper now: 
In the Grand Tetons you can also hike Mary's Nipple.

Kemper, who wants some of his ashes to be released high in the Tetons




From annemehr at yahoo.com  Sat May 10 00:31:16 2008
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (Annemehr)
Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 00:31:16 -0000
Subject: Pardon Pastor's French
In-Reply-To: <g02m7l+8tk2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g02qck+bqhv@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Beth" <jillily3g at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> Beth (me) wrote:
> My subject line may be unnecessary, but it was too fun to pass up!
> 
> I work on projected screens for worship each week, so I get service
> information ahead of time. (Not nearly early enough in my opinion, 
> but that's another topic...) This week, we got a last minute change 
in
> sermon title -- "Parler un noveau langage"-- to go with Pentecost, 
> it would seem. 
> 
> So, I realized that twenty years has made my understanding of French
> beyond rusty, but it looked wrong to me. I'm sure it's too late to 
do
> anything about the bulletins, but if this isn't correct, would 
> someone be willing to help me fix it so I can make it right on the
> screens?
> 
> 
> Annemehr replied:
> Well, in French, there's the masculine word langage, and the 
feminine
>  langue.  I'm pretty sure it's "une langue" your pastor wants in 
this
>  case.  "Langage" would be used for saying "watch your language!" 
> whereas "langue" is for "a foreign language."  But it would be good 
if
> someone wants to confirm this! 
> 
> "Parler" is the infinitive: to speak.
> 
> So, "To speak a new language" would be "Parler une langue nouvelle."
> 
> And "Speak a new language" would be "Parlez une langue nouvelle."
> 
> "Let's speak a new language" would be "Parlons une langue nouvelle."
> 
> Note the adjective follows the noun.
> 
> Hope this helps!
> 
> Annemehr
> 
> 
> Beth (me) again:
> Thank you! I'm happy to know that your first translation was where 
my
> old brain was going, but I wasn't sure about the adjective 
placement.
> I couldn't remember which adjectives were exceptions to the rule. I
> guess I'll have to email her after all to find out if she wants that
> imperative form or not. 
> 
> Thanks so much,
> Beth
>

Hang on, I just double-checked --

Nouveau/nouvelle is indeed one of the exceptions!  So it would 
precede the noun.

Sorry, completely forgot about that! :S

Annemehr





From leekaiwen at yahoo.com  Sat May 10 00:41:19 2008
From: leekaiwen at yahoo.com (Lee Kaiwen)
Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 08:41:19 +0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Pardon Pastor's French
In-Reply-To: <g02fb7+d154@eGroups.com>
References: <g02fb7+d154@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4824EF2F.90607@yahoo.com>

Beth:

> "Parler un noveau langage"

"Parler une nouvelle langue" would probably be better.

French employs both "langage" (masculine in gender) and "langue" 
(feminine) to mean "language", but there are certain semantic 
differences. My French is a bit rusty, so I may be talking off the top 
of my head here, but I believe "langage" is generally used when speaking 
of "language" in general -- e.g., as a linguistic or philosophical 
subject ("human language": "le langage humain"). When speaking of 
particular languages, "langue" is much more commonly employed ("la 
langue francaise", "la langue anglais").

CJ




From leekaiwen at yahoo.com  Sat May 10 01:13:08 2008
From: leekaiwen at yahoo.com (Lee Kaiwen)
Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 09:13:08 +0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Pardon Pastor's French
In-Reply-To: <g02h4b+ae3c@eGroups.com>
References: <g02h4b+ae3c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4824F6A4.8020900@yahoo.com>

Annemehr:

> "Langage" would be used for saying "watch your language!"
> whereas "langue" is for "a foreign language."

Yes, as I recall. "Langue" is used in reference to specific languages; 
"langage" in most other senses of language, such as your example, or any 
of the following:

the language of babies: "le langage de l'enfant"
sexist language: "le langage sexiste"
computer programming languages: "les langages de programmation", "le 
langage PostScript", "le langage SQL"
language research: "recherche sur le langage"

French etymology is well outside my expertise (well, OK, so is French, 
despite minoring in it :-) ), but "langue" may be a relatively recent 
development. I recall a 19th century French text I once read in college 
called "De la situation du langage franais." by the famous French 
linguist Charles Lelong.

In any case, it is almost certainly "langue" that the pastor wants.

> "Parler une langue nouvelle." ... "Parlez une langue nouvelle"  ...
> "Parlons une langue nouvelle."

Ah, good catch. I'd also offer "Nous parlons une nouvelle langue", "We 
speak a new language" and "Parlons-nous une nouvelle langue", "Let's 
speak to each other a new language", though the pastor almost certainly 
didn't intend either of those.

CJ




From alexisnguyen at gmail.com  Sat May 10 01:24:10 2008
From: alexisnguyen at gmail.com (P. Alexis Nguyen)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 21:24:10 -0400
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Pardon Pastor's French
In-Reply-To: <g02qck+bqhv@eGroups.com>
References: <g02m7l+8tk2@eGroups.com> <g02qck+bqhv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b6e131bf0805091824y2be24a3bx2658024e4275634e@mail.gmail.com>

> Hang on, I just double-checked --
>
> Nouveau/nouvelle is indeed one of the exceptions! So it would
> precede the noun.
>
> Sorry, completely forgot about that! :S
>
> Annemehr


Don't know if anyone else learned this in their French classes, but I
was taught B.A.G.S. (beauty, age, goodness, size) to remember all the
preceding adjectives.  Pretty helpful (even if I didn't quite remember
that G right off).

Ah French.  Five years of it to read the Three Musketeers series then
promptly gave most of that knowledge back to my teacher/professor.

Anyway, I'll agree with the other folks to go with "Parlez une
nouvelle langue" as the "correct" one.

~Ali



From alexisnguyen at gmail.com  Sat May 10 01:29:07 2008
From: alexisnguyen at gmail.com (P. Alexis Nguyen)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 21:29:07 -0400
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Spotted Dick & School..
In-Reply-To: <4824E56C.2010609@yahoo.com>
References: <g020ik+ru5t@eGroups.com> <4824E56C.2010609@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <b6e131bf0805091829y2daba4e2ud875b9581e25894f@mail.gmail.com>

> I'm surprised no one has called out the more famous example -- Grand
> Teton in Wyoming, which, as any self-respecting, hormonally active, male
> teenage student of French will tell you, means -- well, exactly what it
> appears to mean :-)
>
> CJ

Remembered that one right off and wondered what the teacher would've
done.  Almost certainly, any presentation on the Grand Tetons would
(or should) include the meaning of the name, and that would most
certainly be more obvious a sexual reference than Spotted Dick.

Oh well.  This teacher seems the prudish, Puritanical and somewhat
illogical type.  It's rather sad to hear stories of these folks
"molding the minds of tomorrow."  Wish all teachers were like my
favourite teach in high school - he taught pre-calc & calc but was
still amazing despite my hatred of all calc classes.

~Ali



From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat May 10 02:42:56 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 02:42:56 -0000
Subject: Rumors of Lane Changes in the UK
In-Reply-To: <00d501c8b226$e2800040$15b2a8c0@miles>
Message-ID: <g0323g+je9m@eGroups.com>

Steve wrote:
<snip>  How many other countries still drive on the 'wrong' side of
the road?
> 
> Miles
> Well, Japan seems to be the most important one, India is another. As
always, wikipedia provides the answer - and a map:
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_directionality#Places_where_traffic_keeps_to_the_left

Carol responds:

Better yet, follow the link in note 8 of the wikipedia entry to

http://users.pandora.be/worldstandards/driving%20on%20the%20left.htm

and click on the link to "History and Origin." But don't forget to
read what I hope is the tongue-in-cheek advice from the British
Ministry of Transport on the first page: "Visitors are informed that
in the United Kingdom traffic drives on the left-hand side of the
road. In the interests of safety, you are advised to practise this in
your country of origin for a week or two before driving in the UK."
 
Yikes. I think not. The rest of the site is very informative and
apparently well-researched. At least the explanations make sense, and
the anecdote about the April Fool's joke in a British paper is worth
repeating:

"A newspaper story one April Fool's Day suggested that, to further
European integration, the UK was to convert to driving on the right.
However, owing to the huge amount of work this conversion would cause,
it would be phased in: for the first six months the regulation would
only apply to buses and taxis."

Let's hope that no bus or taxi drivers took the story seriously!

Just for fun, here's a link to the main page of the site, which links
to other articles on electricity and scripts and alphabets around the
world:

http://users.pandora.be/worldstandards/index.htm

Carol, always amazed by the things she learns on this list (not to
mention from the twenty-two-year-old author who taught her that
texting is done with the thumbs!)






From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Sat May 10 06:43:46 2008
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 06:43:46 -0000
Subject: Rumors of Lane Changes in the UK
In-Reply-To: <4824D95B.8050009@watch.renals.co.uk>
Message-ID: <g03g72+18i9@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Olly <yahoo at ...> wrote:
>
> > Steve wrote:
> >> Sorry, to dwell on this topic, but I vaguely heard a rumor that
> >> the UK was thinking of changing the side of the road that it
> >> dives on. Any truth to that?
> >>
> >> I believe Swede has already done it. As I remember at 12 noon
> >> one day the police went out to every intersection and stopped
> >> traffic, and directed them to the opposite lane. Seems like
> >> a daunting task.
> >>
> >> So, to anyone in the UK, have you heard these rumors, and is
> >> there any truth to them?
> >>
> >> I think perhaps one of the reasons might be to standardize
> >> automobiles around the world. How many other countries still
> >> drive on the 'wrong' side of the road?
> >
> > Miles wrote:
> > Miles
> > Well, Japan seems to be the most important one, India is another. As 
> > always,
> > wikipedia provides the answer - and a map:
> > 
> > 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_directionality#Places_where_traffic_keeps_to_the_left 
> > 
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_directionality#Places_where_traffic_keeps_to_the_lef
t>
> 
> Olly
> There have been no rumours that the UK is changing the side of the road we
> drive on.  However, there are talks about making the driving test harder,
> so naturally that also means that it will cost more.

Geoff:
The idea of the UK changing sides has been mooted a number of 
times in the last few years but has been rejected on the grounds 
of cost.

It is a fact though that in the big motorway and trunk road building 
programmes of the 1970s and 1980s, most of these roads were 
designed so that a change of side could be achieved with no physical 
changes required except for signing.

With regard to Sweden, they changed the rule of the road in 1967 
(which was part of the cause of the above thinking by the UK 
government).

IIRC, it was called H-Dag - the H being the initial letter of "right" 
in Swedish? It was not as simple a you suggest. Again, IIRC, all 
traffic stopped on the first day and from the second day only 
public transport and official traffic was allowed with the public 
being let loose again on the third day.






From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Sat May 10 07:53:20 2008
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 07:53:20 -0000
Subject: Rumors of Lane Changes in the UK
In-Reply-To: <g03g72+18i9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g03k9g+7chg@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" <gbannister10 at ...> wrote:

> Geoff:

> With regard to Sweden, they changed the rule of the road in 1967 
> (which was part of the cause of the above thinking by the UK 
> government).
> 
> IIRC, it was called H-Dag - the H being the initial letter of "right" 
> in Swedish? It was not as simple a you suggest. Again, IIRC, all 
> traffic stopped on the first day and from the second day only 
> public transport and official traffic was allowed with the public 
> being let loose again on the third day.

Geoff:
Answering myself, I checked out a Swedish dictionary and found that 
the 'H' stood for H?ger. 

After 41 years, I think my memory is doing quite well.






From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Sat May 10 13:56:00 2008
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 13:56:00 -0000
Subject: What's wrong with the main list?
In-Reply-To: <g026mt+dik3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g049hg+vc62@eGroups.com>

---  "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:
>
> Does anyone know why it's been so hard to access the main list
> for the last two days? It can't be my computer or browser; I'm
> almost the only one posting! None of the other groups seems to
> be affected.
> 
> Carol, who lost one post and keeps having to reload the pages
> only to find nothing new to read
>

bboyminn:

I've had trouble getting to Yahoo Groups in general, but also,
into the main group. I think it is some problem with Yahoo.
Every now and then they become inaccessible for a short while,
or they slow to a snails pace.

Just be patient and it will come around.

As to why the low volume in the main group, I think it is 
because it is much easier to speculate on the future than it
is to speculate on the past. There is only just so much that
can be said now that the series is done. Though, I think
some interesting conversations are going on, just not at
the same rate as before.

Steve/bboyminn




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sat May 10 15:36:55 2008
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 15:36:55 -0000
Subject: Percy Jackson and the Olympians series
Message-ID: <g04fen+m431@eGroups.com>

I remember Marion recommending these series here, so since book four 
was out few days ago I thought I will just say that the book is 
absolutely wonderful - fun non stop adventure and main characters are 
being fleshed out better and better. I also love love how author brings 
greek myths to life in our day and age. - very funny.


The only thing is though I wish author would be more subtle with 
foreshadowing of what is going to happen at the end. Oh well, one 
cannot have everything, I guess and heee, maybe I am wrong.

Alla




From kempermentor at yahoo.com  Sat May 10 15:52:02 2008
From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kempermentor)
Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 15:52:02 -0000
Subject: Percy Jackson and the Olympians series
In-Reply-To: <g04fen+m431@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g04gb2+t673@eGroups.com>


> Alla:
> I remember Marion recommending these series here, so since book four 
> was out few days ago I thought I will just say that the book is 
> absolutely wonderful ...
> 
> The only thing is though I wish author would be more subtle with 
> foreshadowing of what is going to happen at the end. Oh well, one 
> cannot have everything, I guess and heee, maybe I am wrong.

Kemper now:
The writing does direct the reader a bit (but not as bad as Dan
Brown), but it is a good/fun story.
The new one is waiting for me to pick it up from the library.  Did you
listen to Riordan read the first chapter on his website?  I was
embarrassed for him.   I'm sometimes amazed at how authors read their
work.  He should have let a story teller read the story.

Kemper




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Sat May 10 15:56:52 2008
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 15:56:52 -0000
Subject: That case and that book
In-Reply-To: <fv07ab+id46@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g04gk4+iaen@eGroups.com>

 
> Carol responds:
 However, I did find his (CARD) point that JKR encouraged books
> (such as "The Great Snape Debate" by Card and a co-author) that came
> out before DH and served as part of the publicity campaign but seems
> to have changed tactics now that DH has been published and is calling
> books that quote or paraphrase her works copyright infringement to be
> valid. 
> 
> I thought that the Jennings article, which made similar points without
> resorting to namecalling or incivility, was balanced and fair. 

Potioncat:
I finally have the time to take a look at these two articles...and 
can't find them at Leaky. 

I did take a quick, horrified look at a piece that says the Shrieking 
Shack will be one of the attractions at the Potter Park.

Oh my.

I don't think I could go in there....

Yes, I've been to Ford's Theatre...but I didn't know Mr. Lincoln.




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sat May 10 16:00:28 2008
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 16:00:28 -0000
Subject: Percy Jackson and the Olympians series
In-Reply-To: <g04gb2+t673@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g04gqs+up20@eGroups.com>

> Kemper now:
> The writing does direct the reader a bit (but not as bad as Dan
> Brown), but it is a good/fun story.
> The new one is waiting for me to pick it up from the library.  Did you
> listen to Riordan read the first chapter on his website?  I was
> embarrassed for him.   I'm sometimes amazed at how authors read their
> work.  He should have let a story teller read the story.

Alla:

Oh I love the story as I said, it is just I feel that I know the ending 
pretty well, I mean not to the greatest details, but I think I know 
what will save everybody, etc. The story is fast pacing, etc and I love 
greek myths, so while I do not think it is very original, I certainly 
appreciate how the myths are used and I do care for percy more and more.


No I did not listen to the reading and if it is as bad, I will not 
listen :-)




From specialcritters at hotmail.com  Sat May 10 16:10:12 2008
From: specialcritters at hotmail.com (Lee Truslow)
Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 12:10:12 -0400
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Percy Jackson and the Olympians series
In-Reply-To: <g04gb2+t673@eGroups.com>
References: <g04fen+m431@eGroups.com> <g04gb2+t673@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <BAY138-W4534C93C1238E5DE4A6D6EB2D20@phx.gbl>


Jesse (Something) reads for the audiobooks and does a great job. Just curious what was so bad about Riordan's rendition?
 
I have the new one, but I've been reading something else instead.Kemper now: Did youlisten to Riordan read the first chapter on his website? I wasembarrassed for him. I'm sometimes amazed at how authors read theirwork. He should have let a story teller read the story.Kemper
_________________________________________________________________
Make Windows Vista more reliable and secure with Windows Vista Service Pack 1.
http://www.windowsvista.com/SP1?WT.mc_id=hotmailvistasp1banner

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sat May 10 16:10:34 2008
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 16:10:34 -0000
Subject: That case and that book
In-Reply-To: <g04gk4+iaen@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g04hdq+2jvj@eGroups.com>

> Potioncat:
> I finally have the time to take a look at these two articles...and 
> can't find them at Leaky. 

Alla:

They are just off the front page due to more recent news articles. Go 
to any recent article covering the trial and click on the Companion 
books sign, you will find the article there, I am sure. It is under the 
trial - opinions, or something like that.

I cringe every time I remember Card article, if you have time take a 
look at what Neil Gaiman wrote ( who is also on the side of RDR) and 
see the difference and why I like Neil Gaiman so much and will not 
bother giving Card time of the day, like ever.


> 
> I did take a quick, horrified look at a piece that says the Shrieking 
> Shack will be one of the attractions at the Potter Park.
> 
> Oh my.
> 
> I don't think I could go in there....
> 
> Yes, I've been to Ford's Theatre...but I didn't know Mr. Lincoln.
>


Alla:

LOL




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sat May 10 18:37:29 2008
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 18:37:29 -0000
Subject: What's wrong with the main list?
In-Reply-To: <g049hg+vc62@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g04q19+n08l@eGroups.com>

> bboyminn:
> 
> I've had trouble getting to Yahoo Groups in general, but also,
> into the main group. I think it is some problem with Yahoo.
> Every now and then they become inaccessible for a short while,
> or they slow to a snails pace.
> 
> Just be patient and it will come around.

Alla:

Oh yes, Yahoomort was acting up again - not the first time and not 
the last time.


bboyminn: 
> As to why the low volume in the main group, I think it is 
> because it is much easier to speculate on the future than it
> is to speculate on the past. There is only just so much that
> can be said now that the series is done. Though, I think
> some interesting conversations are going on, just not at
> the same rate as before.


Alla:

For myself only - Harry will always have a special place in my heart 
and I am still not completely tired of talking about the books, but I 
also now have other books to think about and be passionate about that 
captured my heart just as strongly as Harry did and there are sooo 
many of them and the new ones are always coming.

Not that I stopped reading other books while Potter books were coming 
out, quite the contrary of course.

But now when books are done I moved on - not in a sense that I do not 
want to talk about Harry 
anymore, long long time should pass before I would feel that way if 
ever, but other characters from other books are now on front burner 
of my imagination if that makes sense.





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat May 10 19:04:06 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 19:04:06 -0000
Subject: That case and that book
In-Reply-To: <g04gk4+iaen@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g04rj6+p8ec@eGroups.com>

Carol earlier:
>  However, I did find his [Orson Scott Card's] point that JKR
encouraged books (such as "The Great Snape Debate" by Card and a
co-author) that came out before DH and served as part of the publicity
campaign but seems to have changed tactics now that DH has been
published and is calling books that quote or paraphrase her works
copyright infringement to be valid. 
> > 
> > I thought that the [Ken] Jennings article, which made similar
points without resorting to namecalling or incivility, was balanced
and fair. 
> 
> Potioncat:
> I finally have the time to take a look at these two articles...and 
> can't find them at Leaky. <snip>

Carol responds:

Leaky can be hard to navigate; I find its search engine to be less
than helpful. I did find the article again by clicking on the
"companion books" link at the top of the latest RDR vs. JKR article.
It's about the third or fourth article on that page.

However, it's probably easier just to go directly to the articles.
Orson Scott Card's can be found here

http://greensboro.rhinotimes.com/Articles-i-2008-04-24-177772.112113_JK_Rowling_Lexicon_and_Oz.html

and Ken Jennings's {I want to type "Peter Jennings's"!) here:

http://ken-jennings.com/blog/?p=812

The Leaky article with the links is here:

http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/2008/4/26/jkr-wb-vs-rdr-books-trial-opinions

Carol, who read RDR's lawyers' arguments (most but not all of which I
agree with) and will read JKR's lawyers' side's testimony but intends
to stay out of any further discussion of the case





From willsonkmom at msn.com  Sat May 10 23:01:15 2008
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 23:01:15 -0000
Subject: That case and that book And OH GROSS!
In-Reply-To: <g04rj6+p8ec@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g059fr+e51i@eGroups.com>


> 
> Carol, who read RDR's lawyers' arguments (most but not all of which 
I
> agree with) and will read JKR's lawyers' side's testimony but 
intends
> to stay out of any further discussion of the case


Potioncat:
Thanks to Carol and Alla for help finding the articles. I wanted to 
read them before the verdict came out, and like Carol, don't really 
want to get into more discussion about it.

And to an even older thread here...I finally saw Sweeney Todd. I was 
motivated by a mixture of wanting to see Rickman, and having to 
screen the movie for my youngest. He finally took action and rented 
for me it while he was away for the weekend, so that I could watch it 
without him around. (I hope that wasn't my Mother's Day present.)

My first reaction was,
Oh gross, oh gross, oh gross oh gross.

That during the opening credits while I was foolishly finishing my 
lunch. What a great weight loss program! No more pies for me! Ever.

But one song does keep running through my head. It's the one Rickman 
and Depp sing together and would be very lovely if it wasn't for the 
characters singing it. (characters, not actors.)

I keep thinking I've had a preview of the Nagini scene.




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sun May 11 01:51:59 2008
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 01:51:59 -0000
Subject: That case and that book And OH GROSS!
In-Reply-To: <g059fr+e51i@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g05jfv+fgil@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at ...> 
wrote:
<SNIP>
>> And to an even older thread here...I finally saw Sweeney Todd. I was 
> motivated by a mixture of wanting to see Rickman, and having to 
> screen the movie for my youngest. He finally took action and rented 
> for me it while he was away for the weekend, so that I could watch it 
> without him around. (I hope that wasn't my Mother's Day present.)
> 
> My first reaction was,
> Oh gross, oh gross, oh gross oh gross.
> 
> That during the opening credits while I was foolishly finishing my 
> lunch. What a great weight loss program! No more pies for me! Ever.
><SNIP>


Alla:

LOL my dear. I take it means two things - your youngest will not be 
seeing it any time soon and two - you are so like me in that aspect.






From marion11111 at yahoo.com  Sun May 11 04:15:24 2008
From: marion11111 at yahoo.com (marion11111)
Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 04:15:24 -0000
Subject: Percy Jackson and the Olympians series
In-Reply-To: <g04fen+m431@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g05rss+h402@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" 
<dumbledore11214 at ...> wrote:
>
> I remember Marion recommending these series here, so since book four 
> was out few days ago I thought I will just say that the book is 
> absolutely wonderful - fun non stop adventure and main characters are 
> being fleshed out better and better. I also love love how author brings 
> greek myths to life in our day and age. - very funny.
> 
> 
> The only thing is though I wish author would be more subtle with 
> foreshadowing of what is going to happen at the end. Oh well, one 
> cannot have everything, I guess and heee, maybe I am wrong.
> 
> Alla
>

Hi Alla.  This is on my list to read next.  I'm glad it's a good #4 and I think the lack of 
subtlety is part of the appeal to kids.  Any kid can feel smart because they  "figured it out."  
It's a little like the obviousness of the Narnia books.  I remember reading those and feeling 
so clever.  "OMG - it's supposed to be Jesus!"  My friends and I were in such a flurry of 
excitement when we realized the connection.  Now it seems so obvious, it's painful.

marion






From HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com  Sun May 11 15:40:34 2008
From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com (HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 11 May 2008 15:40:34 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 5/11/2008, 11:00 am 
Message-ID: <1210520434.13.46799.m49@yahoogroups.com>

Reminder from: HPFGU-OTChatter Yahoo! Group
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/cal

Weekly Chat
Sunday May 11, 2008
11:00 am - 12:00 pm
(This event repeats every week.)
Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Notes:
Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour.

To get to the HPfGU room follow this link:
http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want
to be called.

Enter the password: hpfguchat

Click "Join Chat" on the lower right.

Chat start times:
11 am Pacific US
12 noon Mountain US
1 pm Central US
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7 pm UK



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From HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com  Sun May 11 17:40:33 2008
From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com (HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 11 May 2008 17:40:33 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 5/11/2008, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1210527633.12.73413.m52@yahoogroups.com>

Reminder from: HPFGU-OTChatter Yahoo! Group
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/cal

Weekly Chat
Sunday May 11, 2008
1:00 pm - 1:00 pm
(This event repeats every week.)
Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Notes:
Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour.

To get to the HPfGU room follow this link:
http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want
to be called.

Enter the password: hpfguchat

Click "Join Chat" on the lower right.

Chat start times:
11 am Pacific US
12 noon Mountain US
1 pm Central US
2 pm Eastern US
7 pm UK




All Rights Reserved
 Copyright  2008 
 Yahoo! Inc.
 http://www.yahoo.com

Privacy Policy:
 http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us

Terms of Service:
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From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sun May 11 17:41:59 2008
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 17:41:59 -0000
Subject: Percy Jackson and the Olympians series SPOILERS for books 1-3 only
In-Reply-To: <g05rss+h402@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g07b57+jris@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "marion11111" 
<marion11111 at ...> wrote:
> <SNIP>
> Hi Alla.  This is on my list to read next.  I'm glad it's a good #4 
and I think the lack of 
> subtlety is part of the appeal to kids.  Any kid can feel smart 
because they  "figured it out."  
> It's a little like the obviousness of the Narnia books.  I remember 
reading those and feeling 
> so clever.  "OMG - it's supposed to be Jesus!"  My friends and I 
were in such a flurry of 
> excitement when we realized the connection.  Now it seems so 
obvious, it's painful.
> 
> marion
>


Alla:

Well, no. Luckily for me it is not as over the head as Narnia books. 
IMO anyways.

Remember we were talking that it is so closely based on Heracles 
journey?

I think now that it is done deliberately and with the intention to 
have as much fun with it as possible, but still I bet you anything 
that Percy's ending will be just as Heracles' was only with the twist 
based on the fact that author stresses that they are different even 
when they have to do same thing ( he stressed it in earlier books, so 
I do not give you any spoilers here).

I thought book 4 was really really good, really fast paced and OMG so 
many funny lines when Percy, you know, does his heroics.

I can't wait to talk to you about it when you are done reading.

Another prediction well, connected with the ending. I will very 
happily eat another crow, the one I ate on main was very yummy, but I 
bet you that Percy survives. Just do not see any indications that 
author will switch in another POV and it is written from first person 
and if he were to die, the end of the story will be really bizarre.


Oh and here is what I actually meant about guessing the ending, not 
even the fact that one has to look to Heracles' journey to make 
predictions.

Eh, I think Percy will spare Luke and that ( I of course cannot know 
how it will actually play out) what will save them all.

I absolutely thought so after book 3 and I still do think so.

Alla




From catlady at wicca.net  Sun May 11 23:01:27 2008
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 23:01:27 -0000
Subject: doublets / langue / traffic
Message-ID: <g07ts7+bv6r@eGroups.com>

Geoff wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/36425>:

<< But doublets exist. They were a close-fitting jacket worn by men
between the 15th and 17th centuries. You have possibly heard of
'doublet and hose'? >>

I heard of doublets, the garment, long before I even heard of
doublets, a thin slice of opal with a slice of stronger stone glued on
the back, less valuable than opal all the way through, but more
valuable than triplets, a thin slice of opal with a slice of opaque
stone glued on the back and a slice of glass glued on the front. And I
heard of the opals long before I ever encountered the word 'singlet'.

An earlier phase of this conversation caused me to look up the
etymology of 'doublet' (the garment) and it was so named because it
had two layers of fabric. Doesn't that mean a lining? Which is not a
very unique feature of that garment.

Annemehr wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/36518>:

<< Hang on, I just double-checked -- Nouveau/nouvelle is indeed one of
the exceptions! So it would precede the noun. >>

My friend says it changes the meaning whether 'nouveau' and 'ancien'
are before or after the noun. Ancien after the noun means 'ancient'
and ancien before the noun means 'former', such as mon ancien femme
for 'my ex-wife' and the well-known phrase 'le ancien regime'. 

I can't remember exactly how she said it, but putting nouveau before
the noun means it's kind of revolutionary, like 'Beaujolais nouveau'
is the newly available young wine just released for sale, and 'nouveau
Beaujolais' would be something made in the same region from the same
grape that was totally unlike real Beaujolais.

I'm rather ignorant about Christianity, but it occurred to me that for
the celebration of Pentecost, pastor may have *intended* to imply
something revolutionary, a whole new *kind* of language. Because isn't
Pentecost when the Holy Spirit descended on the Apostles and they
started speaking in a language that came from God?

Geoff wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/36425>:

<< The nearside lanes. In other words, in the UK, the left hand lane
of a three lane road or dual carriageway; the right hand side in
countries who, just to be different <g>, drive on the right. 
Though I fail to see how that question arises from my post..... >>

Carol replied in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/36428>:

<< I could have sworn that in the U.S., where we drive on the
right-hand side of the road, the "inside lane" would be the one
nearest to facing traffic, IOW, the left-hand lane, and farthest from
the shoulder or sidewalk, which abuts the right-hand lane (or,
sometimes, the right-turn lane). >>

Because Geoff spoke of car parts (hood/bonnet, trunk/boot), that
reminded me of one (of many!) bone of contention with my ex, that he
claimed I was wrong about which were the inside lanes and which were
the outside lanes.

So I took this opportunity to find out if he was merely claiming that
an erroneous British usage was correct, or if he was making the whole
thing up to be obnoxious. After all, it's OBVIOUS that the inside
lanes are the ones farthest inside the street, the fast lanes, nearest
the oncoming traffic and high-speed head-on collisions, and the
outside lanes are the ones closest to the outside of the street, the
slow lanes, closest to the sidewalks and pedestrians on surface
streets or the sound wall on the freeways.

The replies confirm that he wasn't just making it up from whole cloth. 

Carol replied in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/36428>:

<< "freeways" (as opposed to toll roads, which are, I think, mostly an
Eastern phenomenon)  >>

The name 'freeway' means free of stop signs and cross traffic, not
free of payment. There is a freeway in Orange County, built by private
investors with Caltrans permission, named The Toll Road -- that's how
it's referred to on traffic reports, not by number. 

There is a current brew-ha-ha in Los Angeles about a plan to turn some
freeway HOV lanes into toll lanes -- I-10 east of downtown and I-110
south of downtown have been suggested -- with vast disagreement about
what the *facts* of the proposal are. For example, would the carpools
and the hybrids with stickers who now use those lanes, for free, have
to pay the toll to use those lanes? Proponents say no, opponents say yes.

Geoff wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/36435>:

<< UK. We are taught that the left hand side (nearer the *pavement* if
there is one or the hard shoulder on a motorway) is the one to stay in
unless you are overtaking. >> [Emphasis added by Catlady.]

Yet another bone of contention with my ex! He snarled that American
drivers are ignorant idiots, who should be taught never to go into the
slow lane except for entering or leaving the freeway, and never to go
into the fast lane except for overtaking. And I told him that the
authorities hadn't built this lovely six lane (three in each
direction) freeway, now masquerading as a crowded parking lot, so that
two lanes each direction could be almost empty while the middle lane
was three times as crowded as now. So he hit me (also not unusual, but
I don't blame it on Britain).

By the way, is anyone going to mention that Brits say 'pavement' to
mean 'sidewalk'. My ex had some joke about a Brit who drives on the
pavement is drunk and so is an American who drives off the pavement.

Carol wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/36524>:

<< Better yet, follow the link in note 8 of the wikipedia entry to
<http://users.pandora.be/worldstandards/driving%20on%20the%20left.htm>
and click on the link to "History and Origin."  >>

Which says, inter alia, <<After the Second World War, left-driving
Sweden, the odd one out in mainland Europe, felt increasing pressure
to change sides in order to conform with the rest of the continent.
The problem was that all their neighbours already drove on the right
side and since there are a lot of small roads without border guards
leading into Norway and Finland, one had to remember in which country
one was.>>

I heard one radio show discuss a two-lane road (one lane each way)
without signage that wandered back and forth across the Sweden-Norway
border, and how had drivers known when to drive on which side of that
road, and someone phoned in who claimed to have lived there and
commuted on the road in those days, who said that he and all his
neighbors solved the problem by driving in the middle of the road.
Well, I suppose it would just be the same as on one-lane roads, where
you have to watch out for on-coming vehicles and there are rules of
etiquette about which vehicle has to back up to a spot where it is
possible to pull off the road to let the other one pass -- I think it
is the one going uphill who has to back down.






From elphabapotter at hotmail.com  Sun May 11 21:45:43 2008
From: elphabapotter at hotmail.com (elphabapotter)
Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 21:45:43 -0000
Subject: The Portal Mini - Food Edition
Message-ID: <g07pe7+8hbu@eGroups.com>

Letter from the Editor

As you might have noticed, our website and forums have been down for
the past few weeks. We would like to apologize for this inconvenience
and let you know that our tech support elves are working diligently to
solve the problem.

Until then, you can stay up to date with the latest Portus news by
visiting our official LiveJournal page and by joining our Portus fan
LJ to chat with other attendees and ask questions.

Don't forget! You can still register for Portus and modify your
existing registration by visiting our registration page here.

In the meantime, please enjoy this special "Yummy Edition" of the
Portal, detailing our new edible additions to Portus's programming!

Best Regards,
Aziza Aba Butain
Editor-In-Chief

To read the rest of the latest edition of the Portal, visit our
LiveJournal page!

http://community.livejournal.com/portus_2008






From alexisnguyen at gmail.com  Mon May 12 02:42:42 2008
From: alexisnguyen at gmail.com (P. Alexis Nguyen)
Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 22:42:42 -0400
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Rumors of Lane Changes in the UK
In-Reply-To: <g0323g+je9m@eGroups.com>
References: <00d501c8b226$e2800040$15b2a8c0@miles> <g0323g+je9m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b6e131bf0805111942m1eccab9fod56050d55bb71dbd@mail.gmail.com>

>  Carol, always amazed by the things she learns on this list (not to
>  mention from the twenty-two-year-old author who taught her that
>  texting is done with the thumbs!)

I just have to know.  How else would one text if not with the thumbs?
While I don't particularly enjoying texting (my phone just wasn't made
for it), I can't imagine how one could efficiently compose a text
message and hold one's phone steady without using the thumbs ...
unless you've always carried a smart phone?

Ali, who should learn to curb her random curiosity



From willsonkmom at msn.com  Mon May 12 12:53:01 2008
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 12:53:01 -0000
Subject: Rumors of Lane Changes in the UK
In-Reply-To: <b6e131bf0805111942m1eccab9fod56050d55bb71dbd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <g09ejd+20vs@eGroups.com>



> Ali wrote:
> I just have to know.  How else would one text if not with the thumbs?
> While I don't particularly enjoying texting (my phone just wasn't made
> for it), I can't imagine how one could efficiently compose a text
> message and hold one's phone steady without using the thumbs ...
> unless you've always carried a smart phone?


Potioncat:

Not Carol, but also had to be taught how to text.

You hold the phone in your non-dominate hand and use your index finger 
to punch the teeny, tiny buttons. It's slow and a real pain.

My daughter used to do a very funny impersonation of me trying to 
text.  Once she showed me the thumb technique I was able to actually 
text on a somewhat regular, but infrequent basis. I still think it's a 
pain.

What really amazes me is that my daughter, who absolutely hates to read 
or write, will constantly text her friends.




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon May 12 20:06:32 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 20:06:32 -0000
Subject: langue / traffic
In-Reply-To: <g07ts7+bv6r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0a808+ouvb@eGroups.com>

Catlady wrote: <snip>
> I'm rather ignorant about Christianity, but it occurred to me that
for the celebration of Pentecost, pastor may have *intended* to imply
something revolutionary, a whole new *kind* of language. Because isn't
Pentecost when the Holy Spirit descended on the Apostles and they
started speaking in a language that came from God?


Carol responds:

I can't speak for the pastor's intention or her knowledge of French,
my own being very limited, but, yes, Pentecost celebrates the moment
when the Holy spirit descended on Jesus' disciples and they began
speaking in tongues. So the idea of speaking a new language, however
she intended it, is appropriate to the liturgical season. Good catch.

Here's a link to a page explaining the season of Pentecost and its
origins:

http://www.saintgeorgeschurch.org/cal_pentecost.htm

Carol earlier:
 
> << "freeways" (as opposed to toll roads, which are, I think, mostly
an Eastern phenomenon)  >>
> 
Catlady:
> The name 'freeway' means free of stop signs and cross traffic, not
free of payment. <snip>

Carol responds:

Apparently, it has both meanings. Merriam-Webster Online gives these
two definitions for "freeway":

"Function:
    noun 
"Date:
    circa 1930

"1: an expressway with fully controlled access 2: a toll-free highway"

So a freeway, as I understand it, is both free of obstructions (like
traffic lights and intersections) and free of charge. Reminds me of
driving on the "right" side of the road, which, for Americans, means
both the right-hand side and the correct side.

Carol, resisting the temptation to discuss ex-husbands but empathizing
with Catlady in that regard nonetheless




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon May 12 20:44:52 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 20:44:52 -0000
Subject: Rumors of Lane Changes in the UK
In-Reply-To: <b6e131bf0805111942m1eccab9fod56050d55bb71dbd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <g0aa84+9t58@eGroups.com>

> >  Carol, always amazed by the things she learns on this list (not to
> >  mention from the twenty-two-year-old author who taught her that
> >  texting is done with the thumbs!)
> 
> I just have to know.  How else would one text if not with the thumbs?
> While I don't particularly enjoying texting (my phone just wasn't
made for it), I can't imagine how one could efficiently compose a text
message and hold one's phone steady without using the thumbs ...
unless you've always carried a smart phone?
> 
> Ali, who should learn to curb her random curiosity
>
Carol:

I just figured that it was done with the fingers, like typing on a
keyboard or using a calculator. Of course, my cell phone is the kind
where letters can only be created by turning off the numbers, so, for
example, a J is a 5 hit once; a K is a 5 hit twice; and an L is a 5
hit three times. Needless to say, I don't send text messages! but I
don't dial (punch in) phone numbers with my thumbes. How needlessly
awkward! So it surprised me that texting was done with the thumbes. I
can't imagine using my thumbs instead of my fingers for my keyboard. I
think that I only use my thumb for the space bar.

So what I would do, if forced to send a text message, is use my index
finger, just as I do when I'm dialing a pushbutton phone, cell or
other wise. If it had a little keyboard and could be placed on a flat
surface, I suppose I'd hunt and peck with both index fingers.

Cell phones are still awkward for me and I have yet to figure out how
to take a picture with one I don't walk around in stores with my cell
phone and I don't use it when I'm driving. "Texting" in those
circumstances is simply inconceivable to me, and if I'm at home, I can
just e-mail the person. (I don't use Instant Messaging, either, and
chat is just annoying for someone like me who likes detailed,
proofread responses. (I still make errors, like calling Harry
"Voldemort" in a recent HPfGu post, but I like to catch *most* of my
typos and other blunders!) 

Bear in mind that when I was twenty, a reel-to-reel home tape recorder
was high tech (though not new!) and VCRs hadn't been invented. I
remember eight-track cartridge tapes in the mid-1970s and cassette
tapes as a huge improvement in the late '70s. We had color television
and pocket calculators and transistor radios and phonographs, but home
computers and CD or DVD players, not to mention iPods and BlackBerrys)
were in the unimaginable future. If you wanted to communicate with
someone, you could make a phone call or you could write a letter. No
e-mail; no texting. I like my computer and have come to depend on it
as much as I depend on my car and my telephone, but I managed without
a cell phone until last year when my sister gave me one as a gift. I
still get a headache when I try to use a digital camera or an iPod. We
really don't need all this. Books, electric lights, a phonograph, and
modern large appliances like gas or electric stoves, refrigerators,
and washers and dryers, yes. But iPods and texting and video games? I
think that the world was better off without them. *I* don't need them,
at any rate.

Carol, fondly remembering her first transistor radio, which she used
to listen to at night when her parents couldn't hear it, just like a
modern teenager




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Mon May 12 20:50:44 2008
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 20:50:44 -0000
Subject: doublets / langue / traffic
In-Reply-To: <g07ts7+bv6r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0aaj4+caqv@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" <catlady at ...> 
wrote:
>
> Geoff (previously):
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/36425>:
> 
> << But doublets exist. They were a close-fitting jacket worn by men
> between the 15th and 17th centuries. You have possibly heard of
> 'doublet and hose'? >>

Catlady: 
> An earlier phase of this conversation caused me to look up the
> etymology of 'doublet' (the garment) and it was so named because it
> had two layers of fabric. Doesn't that mean a lining? Which is not a
> very unique feature of that garment.

Geoff:
The type of doublet I've seen in Shakespearian costume dramas and 
such like often have vertical slits in them to reveal the material underneath 
which does make them different,

Catlady:  
> I'm rather ignorant about Christianity, but it occurred to me that for
> the celebration of Pentecost, pastor may have *intended* to imply
> something revolutionary, a whole new *kind* of language. Because isn't
> Pentecost when the Holy Spirit descended on the Apostles and they
> started speaking in a language that came from God?

Geoff:
Not at Pentecost. The extraordinary thing to the listeners was that 
the group of disciples, who included in their number several relatively 
uneducated Galileans, suddenly acquired the ability to speak to the 
polyglot group of people attending the Passover in Jerusalem in 
their own languages.

"Speaking in tongues" - a gift from God to speak a heavenly language 
still happens today.
 
> Carol:
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/36428>:
> 
> << I could have sworn that in the U.S., where we drive on the
> right-hand side of the road, the "inside lane" would be the one
> nearest to facing traffic, IOW, the left-hand lane, and farthest from
> the shoulder or sidewalk, which abuts the right-hand lane (or,
> sometimes, the right-turn lane). >>

Geoff:
Perhaps I can sum it up most concisely by saying that, to a UK driver, 
the inside lane is the slow lane and the outside lane is the fast lane 
which hopefully gets round the problem of those strange people who 
still persist on driving on the right-hand side.
:-)






From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue May 13 06:02:40 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 06:02:40 -0000
Subject: doublets / langue / traffic
In-Reply-To: <g0aaj4+caqv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0bau0+dhlc@eGroups.com>


> Geoff:
> Perhaps I can sum it up most concisely by saying that, to a UK
driver, the inside lane is the slow lane and the outside lane is the
fast lane which hopefully gets round the problem of those strange
people who still persist on driving on the right-hand side.
> :-)

Carol:
But here, the inside lane (closest to oncoming traffic) is the fast
lane and the outside lane (closest to the shoulder) is the slow lane.
I feel as if I'm in Oz or Wonderland or a land of mirrors--someplace
where everything is upsidedown and backwards. :-)

Carol, whose latest editing project by the woman from Scotland turns
out not to be a novel at all but a New Age how-to manual on becoming a
psychic and channeling spiritual forces!






From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Tue May 13 06:44:54 2008
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 06:44:54 -0000
Subject: doublets / langue / traffic
In-Reply-To: <g0bau0+dhlc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0bdd6+n1dt@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> > Geoff:
> > Perhaps I can sum it up most concisely by saying that, to a UK
> driver, the inside lane is the slow lane and the outside lane is the
> fast lane which hopefully gets round the problem of those strange
> people who still persist on driving on the right-hand side.
> > :-)
> 
> Carol:
> But here, the inside lane (closest to oncoming traffic) is the fast
> lane and the outside lane (closest to the shoulder) is the slow lane.
> I feel as if I'm in Oz or Wonderland or a land of mirrors--someplace
> where everything is upsidedown and backwards. :-)

Geoff:
Yes, we've been this way before. I was just crystallising the UK position 
in what I hoped were clearer terms.

But, as a UK "native", I like living in a land where everything is upside-down 
and backwards, where we use lifts and dustbins, put our luggage in the 
car boot, run the car on petrol of diesel (if we still afford it!), wear trainers 
and eat spotted dick. And, in case you hadn't noticed, we drive on the left... 
It's all part of life's rich tapestry and often really quite fun.
:-))




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Tue May 13 11:58:58 2008
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 11:58:58 -0000
Subject: back to books Re: doublets / langue / traffic
In-Reply-To: <g0bau0+dhlc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0bvq2+6kjk@eGroups.com>


> 
> Carol, whose latest editing project by the woman from Scotland turns
> out not to be a novel at all but a New Age how-to manual on becoming a
> psychic and channeling spiritual forces!
>

Potioncat:
Are her initials ST? Oh, no, you said it was Joanne.

Drat!

Do you expect feedback about the A-shirt/wifebeater?







From annemehr at yahoo.com  Tue May 13 13:52:16 2008
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (Annemehr)
Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 13:52:16 -0000
Subject: back to books Re: doublets / langue / traffic
In-Reply-To: <g0bvq2+6kjk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0c6eg+90gj@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at ...> 
wrote:
>
> 
> > 
> > Carol, whose latest editing project by the woman from Scotland turns
> > out not to be a novel at all but a New Age how-to manual on 
becoming a
> > psychic and channeling spiritual forces!
> >
> 
> Potioncat:
> Are her initials ST? Oh, no, you said it was Joanne.
> 
> Drat!
> 

Obviously, our Sybil is using a nom-de-plume (and a real plume, too).

Annemehr,
wondering whether a text full of jargon (New Age or otherwise) poses 
editing difficulties for a non-adept




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Tue May 13 16:23:50 2008
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 16:23:50 -0000
Subject: back to books Re: doublets / langue / traffic
In-Reply-To: <g0c6eg+90gj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0cfam+oqm9@eGroups.com>


> Annemehr:
> Obviously, our Sybil is using a nom-de-plume (and a real plume, too).
> 
> Annemehr,
> wondering whether a text full of jargon (New Age or otherwise) poses 
> editing difficulties for a non-adept



Potioncat:
Isn't a wizarding nom-de-plume the quill that writes down the name of 
magical children on the list for Hogwarts when they are born? (not at 
all sure I've done that gramatically.) (Carol?)

No, wait, I guess that quill would be a plume-de-nom.







From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Tue May 13 16:24:05 2008
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 16:24:05 -0000
Subject: back to books Re: doublets / langue / traffic
In-Reply-To: <g0c6eg+90gj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0cfb5+grm2@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Annemehr" <annemehr at ...> wrote:
>
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom@> 
> wrote:
> >
> > 
> > > 
> > > Carol, whose latest editing project by the woman from Scotland turns
> > > out not to be a novel at all but a New Age how-to manual on 
> becoming a
> > > psychic and channeling spiritual forces!
> > >
> > 
> > Potioncat:
> > Are her initials ST? Oh, no, you said it was Joanne.
> > 
> > Drat!
> > 
> 
> Obviously, our Sybil is using a nom-de-plume (and a real plume, too).
> 
> Annemehr,
> wondering whether a text full of jargon (New Age or otherwise) poses 
> editing difficulties for a non-adept

Geoff:
Nah. Just cross out every fourth word.
:-)






From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue May 13 17:17:27 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 17:17:27 -0000
Subject: back to books Re: doublets / langue / traffic
In-Reply-To: <g0bvq2+6kjk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0cif7+n9jj@eGroups.com>

Carol, whose latest editing project by the woman from Scotland turns
out not to be a novel at all but a New Age how-to manual on becoming a
psychic and channeling spiritual forces!
> >
> 
> Potioncat:
> Are her initials ST? Oh, no, you said it was Joanne.
> 
> Drat!
> 
> Do you expect feedback about the A-shirt/wifebeater?

Carol responds:
Trelawney does strike me as a New Ager (like this author). One of my
editing projects some time back mentioned that there are actually
"universities" (in England?) that teach cartomancy and whatever the
word is for tealeaf reading.

The only word yet from the "wifebeater" author is a thank you very
much; I'll get back to you with questions. If she protests the
wifebeater query, I'll remind her that it's her manuscript and her
decision. I don't have the authority to dictate alterations. She's
even free to reject my correction of "guilty conscious" to "guilty
conscience" if she so desires.

Carol, wondering whether France still has its Academy to dictate pure
French and, if so, how well its succeeding





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue May 13 17:39:13 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 17:39:13 -0000
Subject: back to books Re: doublets / langue / traffic
In-Reply-To: <g0c6eg+90gj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0cjo1+i3hj@eGroups.com>

> Obviously, our Sybil is using a nom-de-plume (and a real plume, too).
> 
> Annemehr,
> wondering whether a text full of jargon (New Age or otherwise) poses
editing difficulties for a non-adept

Carol responds:
It depends. Sometimes, a jargon term is defined in the text itself, so
I'll move the definition to the place where the term is first used.
Sometimes, I can find a definintion on the Internet and query whether
it's the right one or just ask the author to define the term for
readers who might be unfamiliar with it. And sometimes, I simply
suggest rephrasing in plain English.

If I know the meaning of the jargon term and jargon isn't necessary to
the work (in the sense of a genuine specialized vocabulary for a
particular field, such as literary analysis or paloeanthropology)
--let's say that a would-be novelist has picked up a jargon phrase
from pop psychology--I can just reword it myself. "He had issues with
his family" becomes "He had conflicts with his family," (I can query
further, asking the author to specify what the conflicts or arguments
were about.) And the author is always free to accept or reject my
suggestions or to ask further questions (within reasonable limits--I
can't spend the next six months being an unpaid consultant!).

It all depends on the context of the jargon term, the purpose of the
book, and the intended audience. Thank goodness for the Internet,
though, since standard dictionaries seldom tell me what I need to know!

Carol, who found a wonderful online style guide for British
manuscripts in the humanities (MHRA) but needs somwthing similar for
the (pseudo)sciences




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue May 13 17:59:34 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 17:59:34 -0000
Subject: back to books Re: doublets / langue / traffic
In-Reply-To: <g0cfam+oqm9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0cku6+gv63@eGroups.com>

Potioncat:
> Isn't a wizarding nom-de-plume the quill that writes down the name
of  magical children on the list for Hogwarts when they are born? (not
at all sure I've done that gramatically.) (Carol?)
> 
> No, wait, I guess that quill would be a plume-de-nom.

Carol:
If you're asking me to correct the grammar in your cute post, or
reword it slightly more gracefully, I'd really rather not. That would
be entirely the wrong response, and besides, it's fine as it is. I'll
point out though, since you (sort of) asked, that "nom de plume" isn't
hyphenated.

Carol, who thinks that the proper response to Potioncat's post is LOL





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue May 13 18:05:46 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 18:05:46 -0000
Subject: back to books Re: doublets / langue / traffic
In-Reply-To: <g0cfb5+grm2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0cl9q+c0ne@eGroups.com>

Annemehr,
> > wondering whether a text full of jargon (New Age or otherwise)
poses editing difficulties for a non-adept
> 
> Geoff:
> Nah. Just cross out every fourth word.
> :-)

Carol:
Now that's a strategy I can live with (unless the fourth word is "a,"
"an," or "the," in which case I'd better make it the fifth word)! 

Let's try it with Annemehr's signoff:

"wondering whether a full of jargon (Age or otherwise) poses
difficulties for a"

Yeah, that'll work! <obvious wink>

Carol, who thinks that crossing out every *jargon* word might work
even better ;-)





From annemehr at yahoo.com  Tue May 13 18:11:44 2008
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (Annemehr)
Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 18:11:44 -0000
Subject: back to books Re: doublets / langue / traffic
In-Reply-To: <g0cku6+gv63@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0cll0+ucv9@eGroups.com>


> Carol:
> I'll point out though, since you (sort of) asked, that "nom de plume" 
isn't
> hyphenated.

*Hastily checks for hyphens in own post*

Dang.

Annemehr,
the bad influence, 
also LOLing at Potioncat's wordplay





From annemehr at yahoo.com  Tue May 13 18:15:28 2008
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (Annemehr)
Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 18:15:28 -0000
Subject: back to books Re: doublets / langue / traffic
In-Reply-To: <g0cfb5+grm2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0cls0+2gpd@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" 
<gbannister10 at ...> wrote:
>
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Annemehr" <annemehr@> 
wrote:
> >
> > --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" 
<willsonkmom@> 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Carol, whose latest editing project by the woman from 
Scotland turns
> > > > out not to be a novel at all but a New Age how-to manual on 
> > becoming a
> > > > psychic and channeling spiritual forces!
> > > >
> > > 
> > > Potioncat:
> > > Are her initials ST? Oh, no, you said it was Joanne.
> > > 
> > > Drat!
> > > 
> > 
> > Obviously, our Sybil is using a nom-de-plume (and a real plume, 
too).
> > 
> > Annemehr,
> > wondering whether a text full of jargon (New Age or otherwise) 
poses 
> > editing difficulties for a non-adept
> 
> Geoff:
> Nah. Just cross out every fourth word.
> :-)
>

"Does that apply to the Christian texts as well, then?" she asked, 
innocently.  0:)

A.





From annemehr at yahoo.com  Tue May 13 18:38:41 2008
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (Annemehr)
Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 18:38:41 -0000
Subject: back to books Re: doublets / langue / traffic
In-Reply-To: <g0cjo1+i3hj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0cn7h+uhsc@eGroups.com>


> > Annemehr,
> > wondering whether a text full of jargon (New Age or otherwise) poses
> editing difficulties for a non-adept
> 
> Carol responds:
<snip>
> It all depends on the context of the jargon term, the purpose of the
> book, and the intended audience. Thank goodness for the Internet,
> though, since standard dictionaries seldom tell me what I need to 
know!

Annemehr:
Still, it sounds like a lot of extra work -- especially if the intended 
audience is familiar with all the concepts (although ideally I suppose 
they'd try to find an editor who had some expertise in the field).  
When I'm reading a text full of unfamiliar terms, I can only hold about 
three new definitions in my head at once; beyond that, I need a 
notebook to keep track.  And getting a proper understanding of such a 
piece as a whole is a whole other matter, for me.

I do love the internet, though.  My kids have no appreciation for the 
difficulties, back in the day, when all I had to hand was a dictionary 
and an aging set of Encyclopedia Britannicas.

> 
> Carol, who found a wonderful online style guide for British
> manuscripts in the humanities (MHRA) but needs somwthing similar for
> the (pseudo)sciences
>

Annemehr,
feeling a bit mischievous today, yet not wishing to touch the idea of 
(pseudo)sciences with a ten-foot quill






From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue May 13 21:15:09 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 21:15:09 -0000
Subject: back to books Re: doublets / langue / traffic
In-Reply-To: <g0cn7h+uhsc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0d0ct+ojns@eGroups.com>

> > >Annemehr,
wondering whether a text full of jargon (New Age or otherwise) poses
editing difficulties for a non-adept

Carol responded:
> <snip>
> > It all depends on the context of the jargon term, the purpose of
the book, and the intended audience. Thank goodness for the Internet,
though, since standard dictionaries seldom tell me what I need to  know!
> 
Annemehr:
> Still, it sounds like a lot of extra work -- especially if the
intended audience is familiar with all the concepts (although ideally
I suppose they'd try to find an editor who had some expertise in the
field).  

Carol:
that's the thing. If the author is writing for a general audience (the
type who like self-help books, New Age or not), she needs to define
her terms and/or avoid jargon altogether. A scholarly text for a
specialized audience is another matter altogether (and requires an
editor with knowledge in that field). I don't do medical texts or
mathematical texts, for example. (I did edit one that was full of
Chinese characters, but I told the author in advance that those were
his responsibility--I had no possible way of checking their accuracy.
all I could do was to edit the English portion of the text.)

Annemehr:
> When I'm reading a text full of unfamiliar terms, I can only hold
about three new definitions in my head at once; beyond that, I need a
notebook to keep track.  And getting a proper understanding of such a
piece as a whole is a whole other matter, for me.

Carol:
Right. that's one of the problems that I face as editor. Thank
goodness for "Find," which enables me to see whether the term is
defined elsewhere in the manuscript. Some books, such as, say, a yoga
manual for beginners, need a glossary. I haven't yet decided whether
this book needs one. 

Annemehr: 
> I do love the internet, though.  My kids have no appreciation for
the difficulties, back in the day, when all I had to hand was a
dictionary and an aging set of Encyclopedia Britannicas.

Carol:
Same here, only I had a set of 1978 Worldbook Encyclopedias and a
dictionary. 

> > Carol, who found a wonderful online style guide for British
manuscripts in the humanities (MHRA) but needs something similar for
the (pseudo)sciences
 
> Annemehr,
> feeling a bit mischievous today, yet not wishing to touch the idea
of (pseudo)sciences with a ten-foot quill

Carol:
Hm. Why not? We could do astrology and divination and
ghost-busting--all sorts of possibilities. Seriously, though, I need a
style guide for British publishers of works in the sciences and social
sciences. The closest I've got is the American Psychological
Assoication (APA) Publication Manual, which I hate, hate, hate! 

I need to know details such as when to spell out numbers and which
citation format to use. So I guess the best I can do is to adapt the
APA manual to British punctuation and spelling.

Carol, hoping for another humanities project in the near future!





From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Tue May 13 22:25:02 2008
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 22:25:02 -0000
Subject: back to books Re: doublets / langue / traffic
In-Reply-To: <g0cls0+2gpd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0d4fu+36rq@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Annemehr" <annemehr at ...> wrote:

> > > Annemehr,
> > > wondering whether a text full of jargon (New Age or otherwise) 
> poses 
> > > editing difficulties for a non-adept
> > 
> > Geoff:
> > Nah. Just cross out every fourth word.
> > :-)
> >
> 
> "Does that apply to the Christian texts as well, then?" she asked, 
> innocently.  0:)
> 
> A.

Geoff:
"I think there is more jargon in "Microsoft Office for Dummies" that 
most Christian texts," he replied blandly.






From n2fgc at arrl.net  Wed May 14 00:51:12 2008
From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Lee Storm(God Is The Healing Force))
Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 20:51:12 -0400
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Inside, Outside, Near Lane, Far Lane,
 whatever...
In-Reply-To: <fvtvvf+mj3d@eGroups.com>
References: <fvtpbb+1o6d@eGroups.com> <fvtvvf+mj3d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000301c8b55c$9b7c6a60$67a4a8c0@FRODO>

[My Friend Carol]:
| Regarding Dick Cheney, born in a more innocent era: Does anyone
| besides me remember when Dick was just a nickname for Richard (Dick
| Nixon, anyone?) "See Dick run. See Dick run and play. Oh, oh, oh.

[Lee]:
See Spot.  See Spot run.  See Spot and Dick Run." <LOL!>

And does this mean that the character in "The Secret Garden" better change
his name? <Evil Grin>

[Carol]:
| (Sure the Dick and Jane books were mindless, but they taught a lot of
| kids, including me, to read.)

[Lee]:
Yup, in Kindergarten and First Grade.  And, probably, at the time, we little
runts didn't think they were so mindless, sorta. :-)

Cheers,

Lee :-)

Do not walk behind me,    | Lee Storm
I may not care to lead;   | N2FGC
Do not walk before me,    | n2fgc at arrl.net (or)
I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at optonline.net
Walk beside me, and be my friend.





From n2fgc at arrl.net  Wed May 14 01:15:35 2008
From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Lee Storm(God Is The Healing Force))
Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 21:15:35 -0400
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Spotted Dick & School...
In-Reply-To: <fvv384+5vro@eGroups.com>
References: <fvtmf8+90gf@eGroups.com> <fvv384+5vro@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000401c8b560$0329fb70$67a4a8c0@FRODO>

[Melody]:
| I have had a conference with this teacher 
|       for other reasons and she told that he reads to much sci-fi
|       and needed to read more historical books. That his head was 
|       to high in the sky. My answer to that was at least he reads
|       1 to 2 hours a night every night.

[Lee]:
Duh--good on you!  Bad on teacher!  When he's interested, he'll read history
stuff.  Admittedly, I never did much reading of history when I was in
school.  I just had no interest in history and barely passed my tests.  I
loved reading fantasy, SciFi, biography stuff, and medical stuff.

I can relate, though, as I once had a recreation counselor tell me I'd never
make it because I was too serious and because I liked classical music she
felt I needed to get with it, so to speak.  I fully resented her for that.
Of course, 35 years later (I was 10), my music collection is extremely
eclectic. <Grin>

[Melody]:
| He has not had a good year 
|       this school year and thank goodness it is almost over. I just
|       feel bad because this is the first time that I have tried to
|       help him or that he has let me help him on a project. Normally
|       I buy the supplies and just watch him do it. So maybe it was my 
|       help that hurt his grade. Well with the teacher gone we will
|       never know.

[Lee]:
Melody, I think it's great that you helped him and hardly think you are to
blame for his teacher's attitudes.  She obviously needs a bit of happiness
potion. :-)

Cheers,

Lee :-)

Do not walk behind me,    | Lee Storm
I may not care to lead;   | N2FGC
Do not walk before me,    | n2fgc at arrl.net (or)
I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at optonline.net
Walk beside me, and be my friend.





From annemehr at yahoo.com  Wed May 14 01:59:21 2008
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (Annemehr)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 01:59:21 -0000
Subject: back to books Re: doublets / langue / traffic
In-Reply-To: <g0d4fu+36rq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0dh1p+7l7n@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" 
<gbannister10 at ...> wrote:
>
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Annemehr" <annemehr@> 
wrote:
> 
> > > > Annemehr,
> > > > wondering whether a text full of jargon (New Age or 
otherwise) 
> > poses 
> > > > editing difficulties for a non-adept
> > > 
> > > Geoff:
> > > Nah. Just cross out every fourth word.
> > > :-)
> > >
> > 
> > "Does that apply to the Christian texts as well, then?" she 
asked, 
> > innocently.  0:)
> > 
> > A.
> 
> Geoff:
> "I think there is more jargon in "Microsoft Office for Dummies" 
that 
> most Christian texts," he replied blandly.
>

"For computer lit, we cut every other word," she said, bytingly.

A.





From n2fgc at arrl.net  Wed May 14 03:20:38 2008
From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Lee Storm(God Is The Healing Force))
Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 23:20:38 -0400
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Inside, Outside, Near Lane, Far Lane,
 whatever...
In-Reply-To: <fvvq27+j2dd@eGroups.com>
References: <fvvhfd+kof4@eGroups.com> <fvvq27+j2dd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000c01c8b571$7e2d5090$67a4a8c0@FRODO>

[Geoff]:
(Re M125):
| It has been jokingly nicknamed the London Orbital Car Park by some 
| users because of traffic jams at rush hours.

[Lee]:
<LOL> We have some roads like that in New York State around New York City.
One is the Long Island Expressway which is often called the Long Island
Distressway.  The other infamous road is the Bronx River Parkway (yes, that
is a designation), which is known as the Bronx River Parking-Lot. :-)

And, yes, things like the Lincoln Tunnel are often called, "The Lincoln
Tomb-nel."

Smile,

Lee :-)

Do not walk behind me,    | Lee Storm
I may not care to lead;   | N2FGC
Do not walk before me,    | n2fgc at arrl.net (or)
I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at optonline.net
Walk beside me, and be my friend.





From predigirl1 at yahoo.com  Wed May 14 05:15:34 2008
From: predigirl1 at yahoo.com (Alex Hogan)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 05:15:34 -0000
Subject: Craig Ferguson and JK
Message-ID: <g0dshm+10ef1@eGroups.com>

Was just watching Craig Ferguson's Late Late Show, and he did this 
hilarious thing where he was JK with her own talk show and her ex was 
on . "Bastard Do-nothing" was his name, and he claimed that one of her 
characters was based on him. She denied it. Then the book "Harry 
Potter and the Rotten Ex-Husband" or something like that came into 
play! Great stuff!

Alex Hogan  




From predigirl1 at yahoo.com  Wed May 14 06:09:07 2008
From: predigirl1 at yahoo.com (Alex Hogan)
Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 23:09:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Book recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <g00af0+j3qj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <472084.29649.qm@web53001.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

"Brimstone"  by Douglas Preston and Lincoln Child. One of the best books I have the pleasure to read . I am now looking for the rest of the books with the wonderful characters in which I have become so enamored. A cross between the supernatural and a good old fashioned detective mystery.
   
  Alex Hogan
   
   
  
sistermagpie <sistermagpie at earthlink.net> wrote:
          Milse:
> the new one: Patrick S?skind: Das Parfum - Die Geschichte eines 
M?rders 
> (Perfume: The Story of a Murderer) - if 1985 counts as new.

Magpie:
I definitely liked this one!

-m



                           

       

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Wed May 14 15:38:44 2008
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 15:38:44 -0000
Subject: Craig Ferguson and JK
In-Reply-To: <g0dshm+10ef1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0f124+4poi@eGroups.com>

---  "Alex Hogan" <predigirl1 at ...> wrote:
>
> Was just watching Craig Ferguson's Late Late Show, and he did
> this hilarious thing where he was JK with her own talk show 
> and her ex was on . ... Great stuff!
> 
> Alex Hogan
>

bboyminn:

Craig has done this before, and it is usually pretty funny. I
always thought it would be a huge laugh if he started doing
his little JKR skit, then invited his guest out and IT WAS THE
REAL JKR. Now that would be funny. Of course, I don't ever
expect it to happen.

Let's hope for Craig's sake that JKR and Prince Charles never
watch his show.

Steve/bboyminn




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed May 14 17:23:30 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 17:23:30 -0000
Subject: back to books Re: doublets / langue / traffic
In-Reply-To: <g0d4fu+36rq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0f76i+b1n7@eGroups.com>

Geoff:
> "I think there is more jargon in "Microsoft Office for Dummies" that
most Christian texts," he replied blandly.

Carol responds:

Quote us some passages and maybe we can try rendering them into
English! :-)

Carol, not "getting" the Tom Swiftie is that's what "blandly" is





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed May 14 17:31:56 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 17:31:56 -0000
Subject: Inside, Outside, Near Lane, Far Lane, whatever...
In-Reply-To: <000301c8b55c$9b7c6a60$67a4a8c0@FRODO>
Message-ID: <g0f7mc+i3k2@eGroups.com>

Carol earlier:
> (Sure the Dick and Jane books were mindless, but they taught a lot
of kids, including me, to read.)
> 
> [Lee]:
> Yup, in Kindergarten and First Grade.  And, probably, at the time,
we little runts didn't think they were so mindless, sorta. :-)

Carol again:
I did consider them mindless (you probably did, too), but they were
words on a page and I could see them and immediately read them aloud
or silently and know what they meant, and that was magic. Of course,
it was even better when I discovered real books like the Bobbsey Twins
stories and could leave Dick, Jane, Spot, Puff, and little Sally to
run and play by themselves!

Carol, who remembers wondering in kindergarten what "tisofthee" meant
in "My country, tis of thee, sweet land of liberty" and wondering now
whether kindergartners are still taught patriotic songs with the word
"God" in them (probably not)




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed May 14 17:36:56 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 17:36:56 -0000
Subject: Spotted Dick & School...
In-Reply-To: <000401c8b560$0329fb70$67a4a8c0@FRODO>
Message-ID: <g0f7vo+oicl@eGroups.com>

Melody wrote:
> I have had a conference with this teacher for other reasons and she
told that he reads to much sci-fi and needed to read more historical
books. That his head was to high in the sky. My answer to that was at
least he reads 1 to 2 hours a night every night. <snip>

Carol responds:
Would he be interested in historical novels about great scientific
discoveries or in biographies written for young readers about kids who
grew up to be great inventors? Maybe you could get him interested in
the Wright brothers, for example.

At any rate, it's wonderful that he's interested in books when so many
kids his age, especially boys, are more interested in video games.

Carol, just suggesting a compromise that might or might not work




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Wed May 14 20:04:11 2008
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 20:04:11 -0000
Subject: back to books Re: doublets / langue / traffic
In-Reply-To: <g0f76i+b1n7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0fgjr+s1f6@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:
>
> Geoff:
> > "I think there is more jargon in "Microsoft Office for Dummies" that
> most Christian texts," he replied blandly.
> 
> Carol responds:
> 
> Quote us some passages and maybe we can try rendering them into
> English! :-)

Geoff:
Are you referring to the "Dummies" book? I think I threw my copy away 
when I got a Mac.....
:-)

> Carol, not "getting" the Tom Swiftie is that's what "blandly" is

Geoff:
Sorry, you'll have to explain this one; I'm left scratching my head 
in puzzlement.






From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Wed May 14 20:40:44 2008
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 20:40:44 -0000
Subject: back to books Re: doublets / langue / traffic
In-Reply-To: <g0fgjr+s1f6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0fioc+5edi@eGroups.com>

> > Carol, not "getting" the Tom Swiftie is that's what "blandly" is
> 
> Geoff:
> Sorry, you'll have to explain this one; I'm left scratching my head 
> in puzzlement.

Magpie:
I think Carol is saying that she doesn't understand the meaning behind 
your use of the Tom Swiftie "blandly" in that sentence? Not sure if 
Swiftie confused you, but in case anybody else doesn't know the word--a 
Swiftie or Tom Swiftie refers to an adverb being used after "said," 
usually a pun. Such as "He poked me!" he said pointedly. Or "But who 
turned out the lights?" he said darkly.

I always tend to think of the word as applying to any far-out adverb 
use, but I think that was the original joked. All coming from the Tom 
Swift books where Tom could never just "say" anything.

-m (she said helpfully)




From annemehr at yahoo.com  Wed May 14 21:38:58 2008
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (Annemehr)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 21:38:58 -0000
Subject: back to books Re: doublets / langue / traffic
In-Reply-To: <g0fioc+5edi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0fm5i+3vvc@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "sistermagpie" 
<sistermagpie at ...> wrote:
>
> > > Carol, not "getting" the Tom Swiftie is that's what "blandly" is
> > 
> > Geoff:
> > Sorry, you'll have to explain this one; I'm left scratching my 
head 
> > in puzzlement.
> 
> Magpie:
> I think Carol is saying that she doesn't understand the meaning 
behind 
> your use of the Tom Swiftie "blandly" in that sentence? Not sure if 
> Swiftie confused you, but in case anybody else doesn't know the 
word--a 
> Swiftie or Tom Swiftie refers to an adverb being used after "said," 
> usually a pun. Such as "He poked me!" he said pointedly. Or "But 
who 
> turned out the lights?" he said darkly.
> 
> I always tend to think of the word as applying to any far-out 
adverb 
> use, but I think that was the original joked. All coming from the 
Tom 
> Swift books where Tom could never just "say" anything.
> 
> -m (she said helpfully)
>

Yeah, what Magpie said.

I didn't intend my original "innocently" as a Swiftie, and couldn't 
see that Geoff's "blandly" was, either.  But when I said "bytingly," 
of course that one was.

Annemehr





From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Wed May 14 22:14:38 2008
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 22:14:38 -0000
Subject: back to books Re: doublets / langue / traffic
In-Reply-To: <g0fm5i+3vvc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0fo8e+chdh@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Annemehr" <annemehr at ...> wrote:
>
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "sistermagpie" 
> <sistermagpie@> wrote:
> >
> > > > Carol, not "getting" the Tom Swiftie is that's what "blandly" is
> > > 
> > > Geoff:
> > > Sorry, you'll have to explain this one; I'm left scratching my 
> head 
> > > in puzzlement.
> > 
> > Magpie:
> > I think Carol is saying that she doesn't understand the meaning 
> behind 
> > your use of the Tom Swiftie "blandly" in that sentence? Not sure if 
> > Swiftie confused you, but in case anybody else doesn't know the 
> word--a 
> > Swiftie or Tom Swiftie refers to an adverb being used after "said," 
> > usually a pun. Such as "He poked me!" he said pointedly. Or "But 
> who 
> > turned out the lights?" he said darkly.
> > 
> > I always tend to think of the word as applying to any far-out 
> adverb 
> > use, but I think that was the original joked. All coming from the 
> Tom 
> > Swift books where Tom could never just "say" anything.
> > 
> > -m (she said helpfully)
> >
> 
> Yeah, what Magpie said.
> 
> I didn't intend my original "innocently" as a Swiftie, and couldn't 
> see that Geoff's "blandly" was, either.  But when I said "bytingly," 
> of course that one was.
> 
> Annemehr

Geoff:
Right. Well, I hadn't the faintest who Tom Swift or Tom Swiftie is 
or was (I still haven't!), he says rather irritatedly.

I was responding to Annemehr's "innocently" by using "blandly" - 
which I don't consider far out BTW - in what I thought was the 
same fashion, i.e. rather tongue-in-cheek.

But I suppose we always run the risk of being misinterpreted 
and misunderstood using the written word, he says mournfully.




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed May 14 23:40:42 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 23:40:42 -0000
Subject: back to books Re: doublets / langue / traffic
In-Reply-To: <g0fgjr+s1f6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0ft9q+9nm2@eGroups.com>

Geoff wrote:
> > > "I think there is more jargon in "Microsoft Office for Dummies"
that most Christian texts," he replied blandly.
> > 
Carol responded:
> > 
> > Quote us some passages and maybe we can try rendering them into
English! :-)
> 
Geoff asked:
> Are you referring to the "Dummies" book? I think I threw my copy
away when I got a Mac..... :-)

Carol again:
Yes, I was referring to the Dummies book. "Macs for Dummies" will do
if there's such a thing. (I hate Macs myself, but I realize that Mac
fans are passionate in their belief that Macs are superior.)

Carol earlier: 
> > Carol, not "getting" the Tom Swiftie is that's what "blandly" is
> 
> Geoff:
> Sorry, you'll have to explain this one; I'm left scratching my head
in puzzlement.

Carol again:
Sorry about that. My sentence contains a spelling error ("Tom Swifty"
is spelled with a "y," not an "ie") and a stupid typo, "is" for "if."
I was assuming that "he said blandly" was a Tom Swifty and that you
were deliberately creating one (as Annemehr did in her response, where
"he said bytingly" is an obvious pun).

A Tom Swifty is a type of pun in which the adverb or other description
of the words spoken puns on the words themselves. I'm not good at
creating them myself, but here's a link to a website with some clever
examples:

http://www.fun-with-words.com/tom_swifties.html

Carol, who would sign off with a Tom Swifty relating to typos or blank
minds if she could think of one






From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Thu May 15 01:16:04 2008
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 01:16:04 -0000
Subject: back to books Re: doublets / langue / traffic
In-Reply-To: <g0ft9q+9nm2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0g2sk+dtl3@eGroups.com>

> Carol again:
> Sorry about that. My sentence contains a spelling error ("Tom Swifty"
> is spelled with a "y," not an "ie") 

Magpie:
Good to know! As you can see, I went with your lead. It sounded right 
to me--it's not a word I have to spell a lot! :-)

-m






From gav_fiji at yahoo.com  Thu May 15 01:33:32 2008
From: gav_fiji at yahoo.com (Goddlefrood)
Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 01:33:32 -0000
Subject: back to books Re: doublets / langue / traffic
In-Reply-To: <g0g2sk+dtl3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0g3tc+3eou@eGroups.com>

> Magpie:
> Good to know! As you can see, I went with your lead. It sounded 
> right to me--it's not a word I have to spell a lot! :-)

Goddlefrood:
Nor I, he said swiftly.

Boom boom (Basil Brush AD 1970s)





From mcrudele78 at yahoo.com  Thu May 15 05:14:13 2008
From: mcrudele78 at yahoo.com (Mike)
Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 05:14:13 -0000
Subject: Hey Ab-botttttttttttt   (was Re: The same language with different words
In-Reply-To: <fvnncg+if7a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0ggr5+tecn@eGroups.com>

> Potioncat:
> I live near a city off a major interstate. The interstate highway 
> makes a big circle around the city. If the circle is a clockface, I
> live near 6 O'Clock. So it drives me crazy when directions start
> off, "Go north on the Beltway." Either way is north for me--but
> the wrong north could take me miles away from where I want to go.
> No one seems to understand my confusion!
> 
> Potioncat---certain that she's Costello to Carol's Abbott.

Mike:
Could your beltway possibly be around Washington, DC? That's where I 
encountered the terms "Inner loop" and "Outer loop". Which confused 
me to no end and for the longest time. Then I finally got it, the 
inner loop were those lanes towards the inside of the circle, or 
those traveling clockwise in your example. The outer loop travelled 
counter-clockwise around DC. I expected more traffic to be counter-
clockwise as I found most DC drivers to be counter-intuitive.

Of course, none of this helps your "go north" directional dilemma. 
Unless you sould get them to tell you whether you take the inner loop 
north, or the outer loop north. That is of course as long as they 
aren't confused by those terms like I was for so long.

Mike, who wants to play Joe Besser, the Little Lord Fauntleroy sissy 
on the Abbott and Costello TV show :-)




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Thu May 15 05:32:44 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 05:32:44 -0000
Subject: Hey Ab-botttttttttttt   (was Re: The same language with different words
In-Reply-To: <g0ggr5+tecn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0ghts+63g3@eGroups.com>

Mike:
> Could your beltway possibly be around Washington, DC? That's where I
encountered the terms "Inner loop" and "Outer loop". <snip>

Carol responds:
Thank goodness I wasn't the driver the one time I was in Washington,
D.C. My job was to be as quiet as possible and let my then-husband
figure out the maze.

Carol, wondering whether the inner and outer loops of the beltway are
belt loops ;-)




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Thu May 15 06:35:49 2008
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 06:35:49 -0000
Subject: back to books Re: doublets / langue / traffic
In-Reply-To: <g0ft9q+9nm2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0glk5+jgt1@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:

Geoff asked:
> > Are you referring to the "Dummies" book? I think I threw my copy
> away when I got a Mac..... :-)
 
> Carol again:
> Yes, I was referring to the Dummies book. "Macs for Dummies" will do
> if there's such a thing. (I hate Macs myself, but I realize that Mac
> fans are passionate in their belief that Macs are superior.)

Geoff:
I used Acorn computers which dominated the UK education scene 
during the 1980s and early 1990s and then had a PC for six years 
from 2000 and switched to a MAc Mini two years ago. I am not 
necessarily passionate that Macs are superior - I have just had far 
better performance and less problems.

Have /you/ used a Mac? If not, why do you hate them?

> Carol earlier: 
> > > Carol, not "getting" the Tom Swiftie is that's what "blandly" is
> > 
> > Geoff:
> > Sorry, you'll have to explain this one; I'm left scratching my head
> in puzzlement.
> 
> Carol again:
> Sorry about that. My sentence contains a spelling error ("Tom Swifty"
> is spelled with a "y," not an "ie") and a stupid typo, "is" for "if."
> I was assuming that "he said blandly" was a Tom Swifty and that you
> were deliberately creating one (as Annemehr did in her response, where
> "he said bytingly" is an obvious pun).
> 
> A Tom Swifty is a type of pun in which the adverb or other description
> of the words spoken puns on the words themselves. 

Geoff:
I wasn't punning quite so much on the word but that "innocent" and 
"bland" can be used in similar situations, perhaps making a provocative 
statement and keeping a straight face.

Geoff
(considering the situation dispassionately)




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Thu May 15 06:37:28 2008
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 06:37:28 -0000
Subject: back to books Re: doublets / langue / traffic
In-Reply-To: <g0g3tc+3eou@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0gln8+nepu@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Goddlefrood" <gav_fiji at ...> wrote:
>
> > Magpie:
> > Good to know! As you can see, I went with your lead. It sounded 
> > right to me--it's not a word I have to spell a lot! :-)
> 
> Goddlefrood:
> Nor I, he said swiftly.
> 
> Boom boom (Basil Brush AD 1970s)

Geoff:
Goddlefrood, Basil Brush still lives!! He is alive and well on BBC children's TV.






From gav_fiji at yahoo.com  Thu May 15 10:04:30 2008
From: gav_fiji at yahoo.com (Goddlefrood)
Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 10:04:30 -0000
Subject: Who is the Fox? I am the fox (was: back to books Re: doublets / langue / traffic
In-Reply-To: <g0gln8+nepu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0h1re+pu0q@eGroups.com>

> Geoff:
> Goddlefrood, Basil Brush still lives!! He is alive and well on BBC 
> children's TV.

Excellent, rubs hands together gleefully and looks forward to the next 
visit to the land of his fathers. :D

Goddlefrood





From bekkio at gmail.com  Thu May 15 14:14:34 2008
From: bekkio at gmail.com (Bekki Olivieri)
Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 07:14:34 -0700
Subject: A Special Offer and the Portus Website Returns
Message-ID: <561bdbfa0805150714y152c8fc7mf5777e613621ed3c@mail.gmail.com>

The TAXMAN brings you our last discount before Portus!

It's May, and owls are flying all over the country dropping off those
much desired tax refunds. To celebrate all the extra galleons and
sickles being dropped at our doorsteps, we have decided to present you
with one last discount before Portus arrives this July! From May 13th
through May 31st, enter the code TAXMAN when registering for Portus,
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It's the perfect time to give your friend or relative a gift
registration for Portus! Act soon before the price freezes at $220.00
for a full registration!  To register, please visit
http://guest.cvent.com/EVENTS/Info/Summary.aspx?e=998e88c1-ac3c-478f-b9cf-cac38f0d61ef

A note from the Minister:

And... we're back! The Portus Staff thanks you for your understanding
and patience while our technology elves brought our website back from
the dead. We were fortunate enough to be able to restore our entire
site and the forums from a complete server crash.  Please visit our
website at http://www.portus2008.org/

The month of May brings exciting news about Portus. We are pleased to
announce the addition of a complimentary Deluxe Continental Breakfast
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From s_ings at yahoo.com  Thu May 15 15:49:41 2008
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 15:49:41 -0000
Subject: Convention Alley 2008 Announces Guest Speakers
Message-ID: <g0hm2l+u77@eGroups.com>

Convention Alley 2008 is delighted to announce its guest speakers for 
this year's event!

John Granger will be presenting "Unlocking Deathly Hallows: Five Keys 
for a Greater Appreciation of the Last Harry Potter Novel" on 
Saturday evening. Mr. Granger is the author of a number of books 
based on the popular Harry Potter series, some of which are used in 
classrooms across the continent. He has also been a featured speaker 
at numerous Harry Potter conferences. 

On Friday evening, Dr. Karen J. Kebarle will offer her keynote 
presentation: "If Rowling says Dumbledore is Gay, is he Gay?: In 
other words, what do we do with Rowling's interpretations of her own 
books?" Dr. Kebarle is presently writing a book called "Is Dumbledore 
Gay?". Karen has a Ph.D. in English, has taught on the college and 
university level and has been a presenter at three previous Harry 
Potter conferences.

We invite you to join us for what are going to be some very 
interesting discussions at Convention Alley 2008. Remember that 
registration for the event includes both keynote presentations as 
well the regularly scheduled programming and all meals. We look 
forward to seeing you next month!

Sheryll Townsend
For the Convention Alley Planning Committee
http://www.conventionalley2008.org/






From macloudt at yahoo.co.uk  Thu May 15 17:40:47 2008
From: macloudt at yahoo.co.uk (Mary Ann Jennings)
Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 17:40:47 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Children's books (was Inside, Outside, Near Lane, Far Lane, whatever...)
Message-ID: <698018.38777.qm@web25806.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

Carol wrote:

>>>Of course, it was even better when I discovered real books like the Bobbsey Twins stories and could leave Dick, Jane, Spot, Puff, and little Sally to run and play by themselves!<<<

Mary Ann:

I never read the Dick and Jane books (I attended first grade in Montreal in 1974) but I had an awful lot of Bobbsey Twins books.  As much as I enjoyed these books it bothered me immensely that the kids never aged and that they started the same grades over and over and over again.  Nancy Drew bugged me for the same reason.  In fact, the first book series I read where the kids actually aged was The Famous Five.  Guess I was a stickler for realism (or just plain ol' anal retentive) from an early age.

As a Canadian, The Famous Five were great fun to read as the English was so bizarre to 9-year-old me.  "Oh, do let's!" and Dick calling Julian "a brick" would leave me in stitches.  I'd have to wait almost 20 years before I found out what ginger beer actually was.  While I could figure out most unknown words and phrases through the context of the sentence the term that puzzled me for a long time was "torch", as in the kids lighting a torch to explore the cave.  I couldn't figure out why on earth these kids were walking around with medieval-type burning stick-things when flashlights would be so much easier to use.  Yep, sometimes I'm a bit slow on the uptake. :D

Mary Ann, who's lived in the UK's West Country for years and speaks and understands fluent Hagrid




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Thu May 15 18:41:31 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 18:41:31 -0000
Subject: back to books Re: doublets / langue / traffic
In-Reply-To: <g0glk5+jgt1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0i04r+k02s@eGroups.com>

Goddlefrood asked:
> Have /you/ used a Mac? If not, why do you hate them?

Carol responds:
I don't state that I hate something that I haven't tried. :-)  I was
forced to use a Mac laptop instead of my familiar PC desktop at the
job I had before I became a freelance copyeditor--that was one of the
reasons why I quit. The boss made me give up something I was
comfortable with and that worked for me for something that *he*
thought was superior! Part of the problem might have been that I was
not and still am not comfortable with laptops, even PC laptops.
Another thing that I didn't like was having to use the backspace key
to delete. I prefer having a choice, and I usually delete forward, not
backward. I don't like not having a right-click button on the mouse.
Also, I was used to Windows 98, where I could easily find all my files
and fix minor problems on my own. (I use XP now--I don't like Windows
Vista, either.) Probably familiarity has something to do with it. At
any rate, give me a PC desktop with Windows XP (and a decent Word
program--not 2002-2004!) and I'm happy.

I also tried to use a friend's Mac laptop when I was on vacation to
check my e-mail and the HPfGu posts. It felt awkward and unfamiliar,
and not just because it was somebody else's computer with a default
browser that I didn't like and none of my bookmarks. It was the Mac
itself that felt wrong and hard to use. Of course, the fact that any
Mac I've used was a laptop might have something to do with it, but
still, I want a real delete key and a mouse that I can right-click. I
don't remember any other specifics, just the general feeling that it
wasn't working for me, very much like Harry with the blackthorn wand.

Carol, who has also heard wonderful things about caviar, all disproved
by the experience of tasting the foul stuff




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Thu May 15 18:46:09 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 18:46:09 -0000
Subject: back to books Re: doublets / langue / traffic
In-Reply-To: <g0gln8+nepu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0i0dh+p6r3@eGroups.com>

Geoff:
> Goddlefrood, Basil Brush still lives!! He is alive and well on BBC
children's TV.


Carol responds:
I confused you with my reference to Tom Swifties. Now I'm the one
who's left in the dark. Basil Brush?

Carol, still amazed by all the differences between our supposedly
shared cultures





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Thu May 15 18:57:36 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 18:57:36 -0000
Subject: Children's books (was Inside, Outside, Near Lane, Far Lane, whatever...)
In-Reply-To: <698018.38777.qm@web25806.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <g0i130+u2hm@eGroups.com>

Mary Ann:
> 
> I never read the Dick and Jane books (I attended first grade in
Montreal in 1974) but I had an awful lot of Bobbsey Twins books.  As
much as I enjoyed these books it bothered me immensely that the kids
never aged and that they started the same grades over and over and
over again. <snip>

Carol responds:

I had a similar but not identical experience with the Bobbsey Twins
books. The ones I started out with had Nan and Bert as
twelve-year-olds and Flossie and Freddie as six-year-olds. They were
set, as far as I could tell, in the 1950s, with bicycles and
walkie-talkies and so forth. The drawings were of modern kids,
sometimes wearing shorts. Then I read the original book, which
appeared to be set in a much earlier time (I'm guessing around 1910)
and the kids were ten and five respectively. I remember trying to
figure out what months their birthdays must be in to work out the age
difference--obviously, the older twins had an earlier birth month--but
I couldn't figure out a reasonable way for the era to change so
drastically. I ended up just ignoring it and enjoying the books
individually without trying to make them consistent within the series.
(Good preparation for HP, I suppose.)

Carol, linking to a Bobbsey Twins website that covers the
inconsistencies and the history of the series for anyone interested:

http://home.netcom.com/~drmike99/aboutbobbsey.html




From alexisnguyen at gmail.com  Thu May 15 20:54:48 2008
From: alexisnguyen at gmail.com (P. Alexis Nguyen)
Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 16:54:48 -0400
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Children's books (was Inside, Outside, Near Lane, Far Lane, whatever...)
In-Reply-To: <698018.38777.qm@web25806.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
References: <698018.38777.qm@web25806.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <b6e131bf0805151354q62d3ab83idae8ec5111d0eadf@mail.gmail.com>

Mary Ann:
> I never read the Dick and Jane books (I attended first grade in Montreal in
> 1974) but I had an awful lot of Bobbsey Twins books. As much as I enjoyed
> these books it bothered me immensely that the kids never aged and that they
> started the same grades over and over and over again. Nancy Drew bugged me
> for the same reason. In fact, the first book series I read where the kids
> actually aged was The Famous Five. Guess I was a stickler for realism (or
> just plain ol' anal retentive) from an early age.

Now now.  Nancy went to college in the 90s.  I never read those since
I was close to the cusp of college myself.  Strangely enough, though,
I was really into the super-mysteries at the time - that's Nancy Drew
and the Hardy Boys together for those not in the know.  Great stuff
... I think I might still like them if I weren't lazy about hunting
them down (not that "hunting" on Amazon is hard work) - there was a
time when those books demanded all my allowance money, and this was a
period of a good couple of years, too.  They were the best books and
perfect for a young girl who was convince that the sparks floating
around Nancy and Frank were going to develop into something if they
would only get rid of their significant others.  :)

I did the Bobbsey Twins, Sweet Valley High/Twins/whatever, etc teen
books, too, but Nancy Drew & Hardy Boys hold a special place in my
heart.  I read a few Tom Swift novels (it's all the same writing
syndicate anyway) and loved them but could never find them at the
library, so he just never made it into my classics list.

Good times.  Maybe I'll call home and see if my parents will send me
my "old" books - my books are in pristine condition, and I almost
yelled at my little cousin once for turning down one of the corners in
one of my super-mysteries.  I was a crazed child ... not that my
current book habits are so different.

~Ali



From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Thu May 15 20:58:44 2008
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 20:58:44 -0000
Subject: back to books Re: doublets / langue / traffic
In-Reply-To: <g0i04r+k02s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0i864+h2tu@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:
>
> Goddlefrood asked:
> > Have /you/ used a Mac? If not, why do you hate them?
> 
> Carol responds:
> I don't state that I hate something that I haven't tried. :-)  I was
> forced to use a Mac laptop instead of my familiar PC desktop at the
> job I had before I became a freelance copyeditor--that was one of the
> reasons why I quit. 

Geoff:
Ah, perhaps it's laptops you hate....

I do. I can't stand the things partly because of the tracker pads.

I assure you that, on my Mac Mini G4, you /can/ delete forwards 
although it's something I would never do - it seems counter to 
what is normal for me -and I have a standard two-button mouse. 
As an aside, when I switched from Acorns to PCs in 2000, I had 
to get used to this because Acorn used a three-button mouse.

Again, on the Mac, I find it has a far more stable platform than 
the PC. I can count the crashes I've had in two years on the 
fingers of half a hand and if a program locks up, it is very 
simple to unscramble without affecting anything else.

I suppose it's a case of personal liking. You won't get me back 
to owning a PC - although I have to use one for the projection 
work at  church.




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Thu May 15 21:03:13 2008
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 21:03:13 -0000
Subject: back to books Re: doublets / langue / traffic
In-Reply-To: <g0i0dh+p6r3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0i8eh+33mg@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:
>
> Geoff:
> > Goddlefrood, Basil Brush still lives!! He is alive and well on BBC
> children's TV.
> 
> 
> Carol responds:
> I confused you with my reference to Tom Swifties. Now I'm the one
> who's left in the dark. Basil Brush?
> 
> Carol, still amazed by all the differences between our supposedly
> shared cultures

Geoff:
Basil Brush is a large hand puppet of a fox - hence the surname who, 
as Goodlefrood pointed out, has been around for very many years 
and is very well known to all ages in the UK.

Take a look at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basil_Brush




From jillily3g at yahoo.com  Thu May 15 22:16:20 2008
From: jillily3g at yahoo.com (Beth)
Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 22:16:20 -0000
Subject: Langue laissez-faire
In-Reply-To: <g0aaj4+caqv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0icnk+jjif@eGroups.com>



Catlady wrote: <snip>
I'm rather ignorant about Christianity, but it occurred to me that
for the celebration of Pentecost, pastor may have *intended* to imply
something revolutionary, a whole new *kind* of language. Because isn't
Pentecost when the Holy Spirit descended on the Apostles and they
started speaking in a language that came from God?

Carol responded:
I can't speak for the pastor's intention or her knowledge of French,
my own being very limited, but, yes, Pentecost celebrates the moment
when the Holy spirit descended on Jesus' disciples and they began
speaking in tongues. So the idea of speaking a new language, however
she intended it, is appropriate to the liturgical season. Good catch.

And Geoff responded to Catlady:
Not at Pentecost. The extraordinary thing to the listeners was that
the group of disciples, who included in their number several
relatively uneducated Galileans, suddenly acquired the ability to
speak to the polyglot group of people attending the Passover in
Jerusalem in their own languages.

"Speaking in tongues" - a gift from God to speak a heavenly language
still happens today.

Beth:
See, I was thinking it could mean both. I was pretty sure (and I've
since looked it up and yay! I didn't forget everything I once knew)
that langue meant /both/ language and tongue. So it could mean "Speak
a new language" as a directive and still nod at those tongues of flame. 

As it turns out, the title was already printed in the bulletins, so we
left it "Parlez un noveau langage" for one service, but I had
forgotten to change it back from "Parlez une nouvelle langue" in the
"paperless" service and there it was, big as day. Thankfully, she
looked back at the screen to read it when it came up in the sermon. I
guess the title idea came from a pastor in Montreal. In retrospect, I
probably should have left it alone. (Bad, bad inquiring mind!) But I
sure appreciate the help in figuring it out!

Beth




From gav_fiji at yahoo.com  Thu May 15 23:52:36 2008
From: gav_fiji at yahoo.com (Goddlefrood)
Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 23:52:36 -0000
Subject: back to books Re: doublets / langue / traffic
In-Reply-To: <g0i04r+k02s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0iic4+fuo5@eGroups.com>

> Goddlefrood asked:
> > Have /you/ used a Mac? If not, why do you hate them?

Goddlefrood:

Well, Geoff asked that actually. My brother has Mac machines, 
so I've used them quite regularly. I don't think a lot of them 
myself.

IOW my brother swears by them, I just swear at them.

Goddlefrood, with apologies to Geoff, who's seen that line before.





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri May 16 02:20:33 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 02:20:33 -0000
Subject: back to books Re: doublets / langue / traffic
In-Reply-To: <g0i8eh+33mg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0ir1h+8fsd@eGroups.com>

Geoff:
> Basil Brush is a large hand puppet of a fox - hence the surname who,
as Goodlefrood pointed out, has been around for very many years and is
very well known to all ages in the UK.
> 
> Take a look at:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basil_Brush
>
Carol responds:
Thanks. I saw his performance as Dobby in "Harry Potter and the
Chamberpot of Azerbaijan." No idea whether that's typical Basil Brush
or not

Carol, who probably prefers the Muppets






From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri May 16 02:23:52 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 02:23:52 -0000
Subject: back to books Re: doublets / langue / traffic
In-Reply-To: <g0iic4+fuo5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0ir7o+enpe@eGroups.com>

Carol earlier:
>
> > Goddlefrood asked:
> > > Have /you/ used a Mac? If not, why do you hate them?
> 
> Goddlefrood:
> 
> Well, Geoff asked that actually. My brother has Mac machines, so
I've used them quite regularly. I don't think a lot of them myself.
> 
> IOW my brother swears by them, I just swear at them.
> 
> Goddlefrood, with apologies to Geoff, who's seen that line before.
>
Carol responds:
My apologies for the misattribution. I'm with you in swearing at the Macs!

Carol, happy to find a fellow PCophile (or is that Macophobe?)




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Fri May 16 06:33:19 2008
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 06:33:19 -0000
Subject: back to books Re: doublets / langue / traffic
In-Reply-To: <g0iic4+fuo5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0j9rf+jbrb@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Goddlefrood" <gav_fiji at ...> wrote:
>
> > Goddlefrood asked:
> > > Have /you/ used a Mac? If not, why do you hate them?
> 
> Goddlefrood:
> 
> Well, Geoff asked that actually. My brother has Mac machines, 
> so I've used them quite regularly. I don't think a lot of them 
> myself.
> 
> IOW my brother swears by them, I just swear at them.
> 
> Goddlefrood, with apologies to Geoff, who's seen that line before.

Geoff:

I hadn't!

Nope, I used to regularly utter maledictions in the direction of 
Bill Gates and PCs. Acorns were my first choice in teaching days; 
their operating systems are similar to the Mac.




From mcrudele78 at yahoo.com  Fri May 16 21:11:56 2008
From: mcrudele78 at yahoo.com (Mike)
Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 21:11:56 -0000
Subject: OotP done Swifty Style
In-Reply-To: <g0ft9q+9nm2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0ktas+brcf@eGroups.com>

> Carol, who would sign off with a Tom Swifty relating to typos
> or blank minds if she could think of one

"I couldn't think of a Tom Swifty," Carol said blankly. "But I need 
to reread my posts before hitting send." she added hesitatingly.


Mike's Swifty interpretation of the Snake v. Arthur encounter:

"Where did you see this?" asked Dumbledore insightfully.

"From the snake's eyes." retorted Harry bitingly.

"You were the snake, then!" Dumbledore concluded callously.

"You bit my dad!" Ron spewed venomously.

"Calm down." Minerva whispered soothingly.

"Yes, we'll get to the bottom of this." Dumbledore added deeply.


I'm done, Mike concluded finally




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri May 16 21:58:14 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 21:58:14 -0000
Subject: Question for British list members
Message-ID: <g0l01m+nt7p@eGroups.com>

As promised, I have a question on British usage (with more to come,
I'm sure) relating to my latest editing project. One chapter concerns
the collapse of the World Trade Center. (I've already consulted with
the staff of the Chicago Manual of Style on that one--you can't change
the name of a building to conform to British spelling, so it's
"Center," not "Centre"). 

I need to know how the British generally refer to the date on which
the Twin Towers collapsed, September 11, 2001 (or 11 September 2001
typed British-style). In the U.S., it's referred to as "September
11th" or, more commonly, "9/11." I noticed that my author is confused
by her own usage of "9/11" and keeps speaking of the events as
occurring on "9 September." (At least, she doesn't think that they
occurred on *November* 9!) 

So, Geoff or anyone else who can help me: If you're talking about the
Twin Towers and referencing only the date to a fellow Brit, how would
you express it? "9/11"? "11/9"? "11 September"?

Thanks much!

Carol, who wants to be correct without being confusing the author's
prospecive (British) readers




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Fri May 16 22:17:38 2008
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 22:17:38 -0000
Subject: Question for British list members/PS for Goddlefrood
In-Reply-To: <g0l01m+nt7p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0l162+9248@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:

Carol:
> I need to know how the British generally refer to the date on which
> the Twin Towers collapsed, September 11, 2001 (or 11 September 2001
> typed British-style). In the U.S., it's referred to as "September
> 11th" or, more commonly, "9/11." I noticed that my author is confused
> by her own usage of "9/11" and keeps speaking of the events as
> occurring on "9 September." (At least, she doesn't think that they
> occurred on *November* 9!) 
> 
> So, Geoff or anyone else who can help me: If you're talking about the
> Twin Towers and referencing only the date to a fellow Brit, how would
> you express it? "9/11"? "11/9"? "11 September"?

Geoff:
British spoken style would be "11th September 2001" with the "th" 
included. Newspaper articles will use that or your version also. The 
British media seem to have succumbed to US pressure and generally 
say "9/11". 

Being a maverick and disliking the US date pattern, I stick with the 
spoken style.

At least we have no problem with "7/7" - our own "day of infamy".

PS (for Goddlefrood)
I'm sure you will be interested to know that I switched on the television 
at about 4.00 this afternoon (an unusual time for me) and found myself 
faced by Basil Brush in full flight on the CBBC channel (Children's BBC).




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat May 17 03:58:37 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Sat, 17 May 2008 03:58:37 -0000
Subject: Question for British list members/PS for Goddlefrood
In-Reply-To: <g0l162+9248@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0ll5d+rm0u@eGroups.com>

Carol earlier:
> > I need to know how the British generally refer to the date on
which the Twin Towers collapsed, September 11, 2001 (or 11 September
2001 typed British-style). In the U.S., it's referred to as "September
11th" or, more commonly, "9/11." I noticed that my author is confused
by her own usage of "9/11" and keeps speaking of the events as
occurring on "9 September." (At least, she doesn't think that they
occurred on *November* 9!) 
> > 
> > So, Geoff or anyone else who can help me: If you're talking about
the Twin Towers and referencing only the date to a fellow Brit, how
would you express it? "9/11"? "11/9"? "11 September"?
> 
> Geoff:
> British spoken style would be "11th September 2001" with the "th" 
included. Newspaper articles will use that or your version also. The 
British media seem to have succumbed to US pressure and generally say
"9/11". 
> 
> Being a maverick and disliking the US date pattern, I stick with the 
> spoken style. <snip>

Carol responds:

Thanks, Geoff. This is a book, though, and the British style manuals
I've been able to find eliminate the "th" from dates.

So I take it that the average Brit would recognize "9/11" and realize
that it referred to the Twin Towers collapsing, but would they know
that it referred to 11 September 2001? 

Carol, who has the uncomfortable feeling that at least some people in
the UK think that the WTC collapsed on 9 November







From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Sat May 17 06:35:45 2008
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Sat, 17 May 2008 06:35:45 -0000
Subject: Question for British list members/PS for Goddlefrood
In-Reply-To: <g0ll5d+rm0u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0luc1+he0r@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:
>
Geoff:
> > British spoken style would be "11th September 2001" with the "th" 
> included. Newspaper articles will use that or your version also. The 
> British media seem to have succumbed to US pressure and generally say
> "9/11". 
> > 
> > Being a maverick and disliking the US date pattern, I stick with the 
> > spoken style. <snip>
 
Carol:
 
> Thanks, Geoff. This is a book, though, and the British style manuals
> I've been able to find eliminate the "th" from dates.

Geoff:
Depends to what type of usage your manuals are referring. There is a 
difference between "official" documents and newspapers for example. 
I don't think people would frown over the use of the "th". I certainly 
wouldn't and would rather welcome it.

Carol:
> So I take it that the average Brit would recognize "9/11" and realize
> that it referred to the Twin Towers collapsing, but would they know
> that it referred to 11 September 2001? 

Geoff:
Yes. It's used so much by the media now.
 
> Carol, who has the uncomfortable feeling that at least some people in
> the UK think that the WTC collapsed on 9 November

Geoff:
I think we've got through that stage now.






From macloudt at yahoo.co.uk  Sat May 17 10:08:15 2008
From: macloudt at yahoo.co.uk (Mary Ann Jennings)
Date: Sat, 17 May 2008 10:08:15 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Question for British list members/PS for Goddlefrood
Message-ID: <750207.30031.qm@web25804.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

Carol, Geoff is has already given lots of great info, but, if it helps, I was working in a Year 5 (9 and 10 year olds) a few weeks ago and the Twin Towers came up in class discussion.  All the kids used the term 9/11.  This term is also frequently used on the BBC news, which IMO is the ultimate proof that it's in common use in the UK.

Mary Ann, skiving from finishing her final paper (again)



From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Sat May 17 19:12:26 2008
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Sat, 17 May 2008 19:12:26 -0000
Subject: Question for British list members/PS for Goddlefrood
In-Reply-To: <g0l162+9248@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0namq+8f85@eGroups.com>

> Geoff:
> British spoken style would be "11th September 2001" with the "th" 
> included. Newspaper articles will use that or your version also. The 
> British media seem to have succumbed to US pressure and generally 
> say "9/11". 
> 
> Being a maverick and disliking the US date pattern, I stick with the 
> spoken style.

Magpie:
Are you just making a joke with the word "pressure" or referring to 
some conflict between how they'd want to refer to it and how they feel 
they should? Do you just mean that because Americans say 9/11 or 
September 11 and we talk about it more than anyone else and use that 
shorthand so frequently they picked it up?

-m




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Sat May 17 20:05:33 2008
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Sat, 17 May 2008 20:05:33 -0000
Subject: Question for British list members/PS for Goddlefrood
In-Reply-To: <g0namq+8f85@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0ndqd+m7ni@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "sistermagpie" <sistermagpie at ...> wrote:
>
> > Geoff:
> > British spoken style would be "11th September 2001" with the "th" 
> > included. Newspaper articles will use that or your version also. The 
> > British media seem to have succumbed to US pressure and generally 
> > say "9/11". 
> > 
> > Being a maverick and disliking the US date pattern, I stick with the 
> > spoken style.
> 
> Magpie:
> Are you just making a joke with the word "pressure" or referring to 
> some conflict between how they'd want to refer to it and how they feel 
> they should? Do you just mean that because Americans say 9/11 or 
> September 11 and we talk about it more than anyone else and use that 
> shorthand so frequently they picked it up?

Geoff:
Not in the least. Many UK readers feel that our press - particularly the 
older tabloids (i.e. not the traditional broadsheets which now also have 
tabloid editions) - tend to pick up Americanisms and fall into the habit 
of using them without putting things in UK English.







From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat May 17 21:00:52 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Sat, 17 May 2008 21:00:52 -0000
Subject: Question for British list members/PS for Goddlefrood
In-Reply-To: <g0luc1+he0r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0nh24+qakr@eGroups.com>


> Geoff:
> Depends to what type of usage your manuals are referring. There is a
difference between "official" documents and newspapers for example. I
don't think people would frown over the use of the "th". I certainly 
wouldn't and would rather welcome it.

Carol responds:
I'm talking about publishers' style manuals for books, not government
documents or periodicals. U.S. publishers generally follow the Chicago
Manual of Style. Scholarly books and articles in the humanities, or at
least, in language and literature, usually follow Modern Language
Association (MLA) style. Articles in the social sciences (psychology
and sociology) generally follow American Psychological Association
(APA) style, which I hate.

I've found a few British style guidelines (British publishers don't
like commas!), some of which allow, for example, a spaced en dash (a
short dash, not to be confused with a hyphen) where American style
guides would require an unspaced em dash (long dash) and all of which
recommend the 11 September 2001 format for dates.

So it's not a matter of what "people would welcome." It's a matter of
the publisher's house style, which may or may not conform to a style
guide such as (for British publications) the Modern Humanities
Research Association (MHRA) style guide, which I have downloaded, and
the Oxford Style Manual, which, unfortunately, is not available online.

CMS, for example, says: "Although the day of the month is actually an
ordinal (and so pronounced in speaking), the American practice is to
write it as a cardinal number: 18 April or April 18, *not* 18th April
or April 18th" (CMS 14th ed. 8.38, emphasis in original).

What I need is an equally clear guideline for British usage (for
books, not newspapers or spoken English). I do own Fowler's, which
states that OUP (Oxford University Press) house style is "the type 25
June 1990" (no mention of ordinals), so I'll go with that.

Carol, assuming that everyone on the list knows the difference between
ordinal numbers, such as "first" or ""third" or "eleventh," and
cardinal numbers, such as "one" or "three" or "eleven"




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat May 17 21:10:15 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Sat, 17 May 2008 21:10:15 -0000
Subject: Question for British list members/PS for Goddlefrood
In-Reply-To: <750207.30031.qm@web25804.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <g0nhjn+ad34@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Mary Ann Jennings
<macloudt at ...> wrote:
>
> Carol, Geoff is has already given lots of great info, but, if it
helps, I was working in a Year 5 (9 and 10 year olds) a few weeks ago
and the Twin Towers came up in class discussion.  All the kids used
the term 9/11.  This term is also frequently used on the BBC news,
which IMO is the ultimate proof that it's in common use in the UK.
> 
> Mary Ann, skiving from finishing her final paper (again)
>
Carol responds:

Thanks very much. But do the children know that it means September 11,
not November 9?

Carol, noting that in the U.S., fifth grade (which I assume
corresponds with Year 5) is comprised mostly of ten- and
eleven-year-olds (they'd be ten at the beginning of the year but most
will have turned eleven by this point in the school year)




From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Sat May 17 21:18:07 2008
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Sat, 17 May 2008 21:18:07 -0000
Subject: Question for British list members/PS for Goddlefrood
In-Reply-To: <g0ndqd+m7ni@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0ni2f+5ddp@eGroups.com>

 > Magpie:
> > Are you just making a joke with the word "pressure" or referring to 
> > some conflict between how they'd want to refer to it and how they 
feel 
> > they should? Do you just mean that because Americans say 9/11 or 
> > September 11 and we talk about it more than anyone else and use 
that 
> > shorthand so frequently they picked it up?
> 
> Geoff:
> Not in the least. Many UK readers feel that our press - particularly 
the 
> older tabloids (i.e. not the traditional broadsheets which now also 
have 
> tabloid editions) - tend to pick up Americanisms and fall into the 
habit 
> of using them without putting things in UK English.

Magpie:
So they're not being pressured, they just fell into the habit after 
hearing it referred to that way a lot?

-m




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Sat May 17 22:34:29 2008
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Sat, 17 May 2008 22:34:29 -0000
Subject: Question for British list members/PS for Goddlefrood
In-Reply-To: <g0nh24+qakr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0nmhl+sjnn@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:
 
> Carol, assuming that everyone on the list knows the difference between
> ordinal numbers, such as "first" or ""third" or "eleventh," and
> cardinal numbers, such as "one" or "three" or "eleven"

Geoff:
Well, it's a cardinal sin if you don't.
:-)






From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Sat May 17 22:42:25 2008
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Sat, 17 May 2008 22:42:25 -0000
Subject: Question for British list members/PS for Goddlefrood
In-Reply-To: <g0nhjn+ad34@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0nn0h+k810@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:
>
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Mary Ann Jennings
> <macloudt@> wrote:
> >
> > Carol, Geoff is has already given lots of great info, but, if it
> helps, I was working in a Year 5 (9 and 10 year olds) a few weeks ago
> and the Twin Towers came up in class discussion.  All the kids used
> the term 9/11.  This term is also frequently used on the BBC news,
> which IMO is the ultimate proof that it's in common use in the UK.
> > 
> > Mary Ann, skiving from finishing her final paper (again)
> >
> Carol responds:
> 
> Thanks very much. But do the children know that it means September 11,
> not November 9?
> 
> Carol, noting that in the U.S., fifth grade (which I assume
> corresponds with Year 5) is comprised mostly of ten- and
> eleven-year-olds (they'd be ten at the beginning of the year but most
> will have turned eleven by this point in the school year)
 
Geoff:
Year 7 corresponds to the old First Year which is for children who 
reached 11 in the currency of the previous school year.

For example, pupils entering the current Year 7 in September 2007 
would have reached the age of 11 between 01/09/06 and 31/08/07.
So children who entered Year 5 in September 2007 would have reached 
the age of nine in this period.

For cross-reference, the UK exam year when pupils take GCSE exams and 
reach the age of 16 in that year is Year 11 (the old Fifth Year).

The all-through class numbering system became generally used in the 
UK round about 1989/90.






From catlady at wicca.net  Sun May 18 01:17:40 2008
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 01:17:40 -0000
Subject: Question for British list members (school years)
In-Reply-To: <g0nn0h+k810@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0o03k+2tgt@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Carol"  wrote:

> Carol, noting that in the U.S., fifth grade (which I assume
> corresponds with Year 5) is comprised mostly of ten- and
> eleven-year-olds (they'd be ten at the beginning of the year
> but most will have turned eleven by this point in the school
> year)
>  

In my old mind, students were 5 in kindergarten, 6 in first grade, 7
in second grade, 8 in third grade (and were so impressively big and
grown-up when I was in kindergarten!}, 9 in fourth grade, 10 in fifth
grade, 11 in sixth grade, 12 in seventh grade, 13 in eighth grade, 14
in ninth grade, 15 in tenth grade, 16 in eleventh grade, 17 in twelfth
grade. By 'in', I mean they turned that age by a stated date in that
grade, such as September 30 or October 15 -- thank God/dess my mother
managed to start me in a school district where the cut-off date was
November 30!

This is clearly not the case nowadays, when news reports are always
full of 18 and 19 year old high school students who are old enough to
vote, enlist in the military, and sign contracts without parental
consent. Do you know when it changed, or is my memory just wrong?

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote:

> Year 7 corresponds to the old First Year which is for children who 
> reached 11 in the currency of the previous school year.

"In the currency" of --- in the money of?

I don't remember which Marion Zimmer Bradley "Darkover" book it was,
nor the character's name, nor why she was packing to run away from
home, but I've never forgotten mention a copper necklace "which would
pass current anywhere this side of the mountains". She must have
meant, be accepted as money, because its electrical conductivity would
not be affected by those mountains.
> 
> For example, pupils entering the current Year 7 in September 2007 
> would have reached the age of 11 between 01/09/06 and 31/08/07.
> So children who entered Year 5 in September 2007 would have reached 
> the age of nine in this period.

My old idea (above) is that children would be 12 (or almost 12,
because of the later cut-off date), not 11, when starting 7th grade,
and would be 10 when entering fifth grade. One year older than your
same name grades/forms. Like Carol said. I wonder the cause of this US
- UK discrepancy. Do you call kindergarten Year 1?
> 
> For cross-reference, the UK exam year when pupils take GCSE exams 
> and reach the age of 16 in that year is Year 11 (the old Fifth 
> Year).
> 
> The all-through class numbering system became generally used in the 
> UK round about 1989/90.
>





From willsonkmom at msn.com  Sun May 18 03:29:47 2008
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 03:29:47 -0000
Subject: Question for British list members (school years)
In-Reply-To: <g0o03k+2tgt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0o7rb+74i0@eGroups.com>

Catlady wrote:
> This is clearly not the case nowadays, when news reports are always
> full of 18 and 19 year old high school students who are old enough to
> vote, enlist in the military, and sign contracts without parental
> consent. Do you know when it changed, or is my memory just wrong?

Potioncat:
The cut-off dates vary across the US. I turned 18 before graduating, as 
have both my older two. It's also become common for parents to delay 
the start of school if they feel their child isn't ready. 






From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sun May 18 03:50:55 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 03:50:55 -0000
Subject: Question for British list members/PS for Goddlefrood
In-Reply-To: <g0nn0h+k810@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0o92v+ltdi@eGroups.com>

Carol earlier:

> > Carol, noting that in the U.S., fifth grade (which I assume
corresponds with Year 5) is comprised mostly of ten- and
eleven-year-olds (they'd be ten at the beginning of the year but most
will have turned eleven by this point in the school year)
>  
> Geoff:
> Year 7 corresponds to the old First Year which is for children who
reached 11 in the currency of the previous school year.
>
<snip>> 
> For cross-reference, the UK exam year when pupils take GCSE exams
and reach the age of 16 in that year is Year 11 (the old Fifth Year).
> 
> The all-through class numbering system became generally used in the
UK round about 1989/90.
>
Carol responds:
So children enter what we would call first grade and you call Year One
at age five rather than age six?

In the U.S., they enter kindergarten (half-days of school) at age five
and first grade at age six. Most students are eighteen when they
graduate from high school, though about one fourth (those with summer
birthdays) are still seventeen.

I'm not sure what GCSE exams are. Our high school students take SATs
(Scholastic Aptitude Tests) or in some cases, ACTs (I've forgotten
what it stands for--academic something-or-other tests, probably) in
senior year, that is, twelfth grade.

Do British schools have a Year Twelve, or do students finish school
and start university (or get a job) at seventeen (sixteen for those
born in summer) rather than eighteen (seventeen for the summer-borns)
as in the U.S.?

Carol, wondering, if that's the case, why England doesn't just follow
the WW's example and have kids come of age at seventeen :-)




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sun May 18 04:11:08 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 04:11:08 -0000
Subject: Question for British list members (school years)
In-Reply-To: <g0o03k+2tgt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0oa8s+js4a@eGroups.com>

Catlady wrote: 
> In my old mind, students were 5 in kindergarten, 6 in first grade, 7
in second grade, 8 in third grade (and were so impressively big and
grown-up when I was in kindergarten!}, 9 in fourth grade, 10 in fifth
grade, 11 in sixth grade, 12 in seventh grade, 13 in eighth grade, 14
in ninth grade, 15 in tenth grade, 16 in eleventh grade, 17 in twelfth
grade. By 'in', I mean they turned that age by a stated date in that
grade, such as September 30 or October 15 -- thank God/dess my mother
managed to start me in a school district where the cut-off date was
November 30!
> 
> This is clearly not the case nowadays, when news reports are always
full of 18 and 19 year old high school students who are old enough to
vote, enlist in the military, and sign contracts without parental
consent. Do you know when it changed, or is my memory just wrong?

Carol responds:

The ages didn't change, AFAIK, only the month when the children had to
turn five to be enrolled in kindergarten. When I was little, the
school districts used the calendar year, so a child had to turn five
by December 31. The oldest kids were those born in January; the
youngest, those born in December.

Now, AFAIK, they use the same school-year calendar as the WW: A child
has to turn five on or before August 31 to be enrolled in
kindergarten, so the oldest children are those born in September and
the youngest, those born in August. A child born in summer (June,
July, or August) will be the same age for the whole school year (just
as in the HP books).

As for nineteen-year-old high school students, I don't see how that
would happen unless a kid was held back a year or two, and in these
days of social promotion, I doubt that happens very frequently.

The system could, of course, differ from state to state. I can only
speak for Arizona. And I don't know exactly when the age requirement
changed, only that it's been that way at least since the late 1990s.

There will be Hermiones (the oldest kids in the year) and Harrys
(among the youngest in the year) regardless of the system. 

Carol, who graduated from high school at eighteen because of her April
birthday and would have done so regardless of the cut-off date





From catlady at wicca.net  Sun May 18 04:13:58 2008
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 04:13:58 -0000
Subject: Question for British list members/school years
In-Reply-To: <g0o92v+ltdi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0oae6+mtk7@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:

> I'm not sure what GCSE exams are.

O.W.L.s Formerly O-levels (for "Ordinary").

> Do British schools have a Year Twelve, or do students finish school
> and start university (or get a job) at seventeen (sixteen for those
> born in summer) rather than eighteen (seventeen for the summer-borns)
> as in the U.S.?

Per Geoff, old First Year (First Form) is now Year 7. Which would make
Second Form year 8, Third 9, Fourth 10, Fifth (the OWL year) 11, Sixth
12, and Upper Sixth (Seventh Year at Hogwarts) Year 13.





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sun May 18 04:34:07 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 04:34:07 -0000
Subject: Question for British list members/school years
In-Reply-To: <g0oae6+mtk7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0objv+mft9@eGroups.com>

Carol earlier:
> 
> > Do British schools have a Year Twelve, or do students finish
school and start university (or get a job) at seventeen (sixteen for
those born in summer) rather than eighteen (seventeen for the
summer-borns) as in the U.S.?

Catlady: 
> Per Geoff, old First Year (First Form) is now Year 7. Which would
make Second Form year 8, Third 9, Fourth 10, Fifth (the OWL year) 11,
Sixth 12, and Upper Sixth (Seventh Year at Hogwarts) Year 13.


Carol again:

Sorry about that. I should have done all the math instead of only part
of it.

Year 13, huh? Our high schools end end (as you know, being American)
with twelfth grade, thanks to the first year being kindergarten, and
not, AFAIK, compulsory. Maybe it's like hotels that have no thirteenth
floor, or , at least, no guests assigned to rooms on the thirteenth floor.

BTW, are the terms "freshman" (first-year of high school or college),
"sophomore" (second year), "junior" (third year), and "senior" (fourth
year) used in the UK at all? I think that "freshman" (for "freshe man"
meaning "new boy") originated there, but I was once reprimanded by an
OuP (Oxford University Press) editor for using "freshman," which she
labeled an Americanism. I could have sworn that the term was invented
at Eton!

Carol, thinking that Trelawney would approve of the American system
for numbering school years





From catlady at wicca.net  Sun May 18 04:55:49 2008
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 04:55:49 -0000
Subject: Question for British list members/school years
In-Reply-To: <g0objv+mft9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0ocsl+ba8n@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> 
 
> BTW, are the terms "freshman" (first-year of high school or college),
> "sophomore" (second year), "junior" (third year), and "senior" (fourth
> year) used in the UK at all? I think that "freshman" (for "freshe man"
> meaning "new boy") originated there, but I was once reprimanded by an
> OuP (Oxford University Press) editor for using "freshman," which she
> labeled an Americanism. I could have sworn that the term was invented
> at Eton!

The On=Line Etymology Dictionary says 'freshman' "is attested from 1596"
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=freshman&searchmode=none

I always thought the terms 'freshman', 'sophomore', and 'senior' were
used for the three years of British universities, but when list member
John Walton was at St. Andrews, he told us of the very strange names
(I don't remember) of the years at St. Andrews.




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Sun May 18 06:36:22 2008
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 06:36:22 -0000
Subject: Question for British list members/school years
In-Reply-To: <g0oae6+mtk7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0oip6+r8lb@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" <catlady at ...> 
wrote:
>
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67@> wrote:
> 
> > I'm not sure what GCSE exams are.
> 
> O.W.L.s Formerly O-levels (for "Ordinary").
> 
> > Do British schools have a Year Twelve, or do students finish school
> > and start university (or get a job) at seventeen (sixteen for those
> > born in summer) rather than eighteen (seventeen for the summer-borns)
> > as in the U.S.?
> 
> Per Geoff, old First Year (First Form) is now Year 7. Which would make
> Second Form year 8, Third 9, Fourth 10, Fifth (the OWL year) 11, Sixth
> 12, and Upper Sixth (Seventh Year at Hogwarts) Year 13.

Geoff:
Years 12/13 are not used as identifiers in the UK system.

We continue to use the old terminology so you will see schools 
referring to Lower Sixth/Upper Sixth or First Year Sixth/Second 
Year Sixth.

Just to cover some comments, the cut-off age date throughout 
the UK is 31st August.

Year 1 deals with the 5+ group - those who have reached 5 from 
the 1st September in the preceding up to the 31st August of the 
year in  which they enter Year 1.

So we tend to refer to Year 7 as the 11+ year. At one time - until 
the late 1960- all children changed from Junior school to Secondary 
at this point. Now, it's a mix. Depending on the area, the switch to 
Secondary can be Year 7, 8 or 9.






From n2fgc at arrl.net  Sun May 18 16:18:53 2008
From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Lee Storm(God Is The Healing Force))
Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 12:18:53 -0400
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Children's books (was Inside, Outside,
 Near Lane, Far Lane, whatever...)
In-Reply-To: <698018.38777.qm@web25806.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
References: <698018.38777.qm@web25806.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000001c8b902$de682720$67a4a8c0@FRODO>

[Mary Ann]:
| the term that puzzled me for a long time was "torch", as in 
| the kids lighting a torch to explore the cave.  I couldn't 
| figure out why on earth these kids were walking around with 
| medieval-type burning stick-things when flashlights would be 
| so much easier to use.  Yep, sometimes I'm a bit slow on the 
| uptake. :D

[Lee]:
<LOL> I remember my first run-in with "torch" in "Prince Caspian," where
Edmund had a battery-operated torch he had gotten for his birthday.  In
fact, the last line of the book was, "I left my new torch in Narnia!"

Next time, you'll have to write something in "hagrid". :-)

Cheers,

Lee :-)

Do not walk behind me,    | Lee Storm
I may not care to lead;   | N2FGC
Do not walk before me,    | n2fgc at arrl.net (or)
I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at optonline.net
Walk beside me, and be my friend.
| 
| Mary Ann, who's lived in the UK's West Country for years and 
| speaks and understands fluent Hagrid
| 
| 
| ------------------------------------
| 
| ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________
| 
| The main list rules also apply here, so make sure you read them!
| http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/hbfile.html#2
| 
| Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary 
| material from posts to which you're replying!
| Yahoo! Groups Links
| 
| 
| 
| 





From n2fgc at arrl.net  Sun May 18 16:31:27 2008
From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Lee Storm(God Is The Healing Force))
Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 12:31:27 -0400
Subject: Mac Has One Goodie (Was back to books, Wtc.)
In-Reply-To: <g0i04r+k02s@eGroups.com>
References: <g0glk5+jgt1@eGroups.com> <g0i04r+k02s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000101c8b904$9edc61f0$67a4a8c0@FRODO>

I can understand Carol's feelings on the Mac, but there is one thing it does
which no PC can do.  Now, some will argue with me and screem, "But all PCs
have Narrator!"  Yeah, but Narrator is only good for just about navigating
your desktop and fixing properties, but not for documents and browsing.

The Mac has Speakout, a fully functional, on-board screen-reader which means
that literally *anyone* blind or sighted can use *anyone's* mac.  So, that's
one plus for the Mac.

The PC world has something called System Access which can be put on a USB
drive and work in any PC that has a sound card and there is SA-to-go, a
web-based version of System Access.  It does have some security
vulnerabilities which, IMHO, can be downright dangerous and I want nothing
to do with the product.

So, yes, cudos to Mac for encompassing all potential users...even if it does
feel strange to use. :-)

Lee (who is PC-locked but seriously thinking of changing to Mac because any
new PC she buys will have to be under Vista!)

Do not walk behind me,    | Lee Storm
I may not care to lead;   | N2FGC
Do not walk before me,    | n2fgc at arrl.net (or)
I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at optonline.net
Walk beside me, and be my friend.





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sun May 18 16:36:37 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 16:36:37 -0000
Subject: Question for British list members/school years
In-Reply-To: <g0ocsl+ba8n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0plul+271s@eGroups.com>

Catlady wrote:
>
> The On=Line Etymology Dictionary says 'freshman' "is attested from 1596"
> http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=freshman&searchmode=none

<snip>

Carol responds:

Yes, I saw that. And Merriam-Webster Online gives 1552 as the first
use. Either way, it's not an Americanism!

Carol, whose computer has no sound today for some reason!






From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sun May 18 16:58:47 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 16:58:47 -0000
Subject: Question for British list members/school years
In-Reply-To: <g0oip6+r8lb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0pn87+noha@eGroups.com>

Geoff:
> Years 12/13 are not used as identifiers in the UK system.
> 
> We continue to use the old terminology so you will see schools 
referring to Lower Sixth/Upper Sixth or First Year Sixth/Second Year
Sixth.

Carol responds:
So a student goes from Year 11 to Lower Sixth? Isn't that a wee bit
confusing?

And are most students eighteen when they complete the Upper Sixth
(those with summer birthdays would still be seventeen)?

Geoff: 
> Just to cover some comments, the cut-off age date throughout the UK
is 31st August.

Carol:
Same here, at least in Arizona, but it used to be December 31.

Geoff: 
> Year 1 deals with the 5+ group - those who have reached 5 from the
1st September in the preceding up to the 31st August of the year in 
which they enter Year 1.

Carol:
So Year One corresponds to American kindergarten, not our first grade.

Geoff 
> So we tend to refer to Year 7 as the 11+ year. 

Carol responds:

Forgive me, but that's very confusing. It's all in what you're used
to, I suppose.

Geoff:
At one time - until the late 1960- all children changed from Junior
school to Secondary at this point. Now, it's a mix. Depending on the
area, the switch to Secondary can be Year 7, 8 or 9.

Carol responds:
I wonder whether the philosophy is the same as that in the U.S.:
youunger children and older children should be kept apart to prevent
bullying by older students.

When I was young, we had elementary schools, junior high schools, and
high schools. In Flagstaff, unusually, elementary school was
kindergarten through seventh grade, junior high was eighth and ninth
grades, and high school was tenth through twelfth. However, students
still graduated from eighth grade because that was the last year in
which all students were legally required to attend school. The ninth
graders called themselves "freshmen" as if they were in high school;
it was really only the fact that they shared a building with the
eighth graders (except for foreign language classes, which were in the
high school building next door) that made us junior high students.

Now many school districts have middle schools (generally sixth through
eighth grades) between elementary school (kindergarten through fifth
grades) and high school (ninth grade or freshman year through twelfth
grade or senior year). That system makes sense, I suppose. The oldest
elementary school students are only eleven year old--unless they've
been held back. The eleven through fourteen-year-olds (pre-teen and
early teen) are separate from everyone else, and the mid-teens to
older teens (fourteen through seventeen or eighteen) are together.
fifth graders now have a "promotion ceremony" to celebrate the end of
elementary school, but it's just a formality. And eighth grade
graduation is now also labeled a promotion ceremony, I suppose to
discourage fourteen-year-old are almost fourteen-year-old children
from thinking that they can now drop out of school.

Carol, describing the system as it was in Flagstaff in the old days
and as it is now in Tucson's two districts, but realizing that it
probably differs not only from state to state but from district to
district







From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Sun May 18 17:20:46 2008
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 17:20:46 -0000
Subject: Question for British list members/school years
In-Reply-To: <g0plul+271s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0pohe+djka@eGroups.com>

> Carol responds:
> 
> Yes, I saw that. And Merriam-Webster Online gives 1552 as the first
> use. Either way, it's not an Americanism!
> 
> Carol, whose computer has no sound today for some reason!

Magpie:
Does "Americanism" have to mean "started in America?" I would think a 
lot of Americanisms were British at some time, but now are Americanisms 
because they're what's used in America and not in GB. So freshman is an 
Americanism because we mostly use freshman, sophomore, junior and 
senior to refer to certain grades and people in the UK do not use those 
terms to refer to people in that year. Like the many American quirks of 
language that are now completely American to British ears even though 
they were once standard British usage.

-m




From HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com  Sun May 18 17:40:29 2008
From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com (HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 18 May 2008 17:40:29 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 5/18/2008, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1211132429.8.97480.m35@yahoogroups.com>

Reminder from: HPFGU-OTChatter Yahoo! Group
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/cal

Weekly Chat
Sunday May 18, 2008
1:00 pm - 2:00 pm
(This event repeats every week.)
Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Notes:
Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour.

To get to the HPfGU room follow this link:
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Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want
to be called.

Enter the password: hpfguchat

Click "Join Chat" on the lower right.

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From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Sun May 18 20:42:21 2008
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 20:42:21 -0000
Subject: Question for British list members/school years
In-Reply-To: <g0pn87+noha@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0q4bd+bgeh@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:
>
> Geoff:
> > Years 12/13 are not used as identifiers in the UK system.
> > 
> > We continue to use the old terminology so you will see schools 
> referring to Lower Sixth/Upper Sixth or First Year Sixth/Second Year
> Sixth.
> 
> Carol responds:
> So a student goes from Year 11 to Lower Sixth? Isn't that a wee bit
> confusing?

Geoff:
No, because the Sixth Forms in most schools operate almost as 
an independent section of the school. They have quite a lot of 
classrooms, common rooms of their own and usually more freedom 
- often no uniform as such. Again,they're used to hearing about the 
"Sixth Form".

Carol: 
> And are most students eighteen when they complete the Upper Sixth
> (those with summer birthdays would still be seventeen)?

Geoff:
Yes. But the seventeen year olds would still come of age within that 
school year although of course they would have left by then.


Geoff (earlier):
> > So we tend to refer to Year 7 as the 11+ year. 
 
> Carol responds:
> 
> Forgive me, but that's very confusing. It's all in what you're used
> to, I suppose.
> 
> Geoff (earlier):
> At one time - until the late 1960- all children changed from Junior
> school to Secondary at this point. Now, it's a mix. Depending on the
> area, the switch to Secondary can be Year 7, 8 or 9.

Geoff; 
Perhaps I need to enlarge on this a little.

Can I make it clear that when I say, for example, entry at five, this 
means the September following the child's fifth birthday, sometimes 
called 5+.

Until the 1960s, which I will refer to later, state day schools were 
organised so that children attended an Infants school for two years 
starting from the age of five, then a Junior school for four years and 
then five years Secondary school from the age of 11 up to national 
exams - I am not including Sixth Forms in this. Each school would 
number its classes from 1 upwards.

Many schools had Infant and Junior schools on the same site but had 
different head teachers. Sometimes in urban areas like London, you 
came across JMI (Junior Mixed and Infants) schools with both schools 
under the control of one head.

At that time, children in their last year at Junior school - namely the 
school year in which they reached 11 - took national exams to 
determine their selection for secondary schools. these exams were 
colloquially known as "the 11+" .

At this time, there was a tendency with Public schools, both day and 
boarding, to start their secondary education at thirteen. Their intake 
had often come from Preparatory schools who took an intake at 9. Just 
in passing, it is interesting that Hogwarts which is a private boarding 
school followed the state transfer age pattern.

When the Labour government under Harold Wilson came to power in 
1964, they issued the famous (or infamous depending on your political 
leaning) Circular 10/64 which instructed all Local Education Authorities 
(LEAs) to prep`re schemes for comprehensive school with the aim of 
stopping the 11+ selection process.

The so-called three-tier system gained much ground at this time with 
entry to a Primary/First school at 5, Middle school at 9 and High school 
at 13. This was mainly because in many cases, LEAs could adapt existing 
buildings at less cost!

I taught for 32 years in the same school in South London. when I started, 
it was a Modern school, i.e. for those whose 11+ results had not allowed 
them access to a grammar school and had boys from 11-15/16. Under 
the new directives, we gradually changed to a 13-18 mixed 
comprehensive with a Sixth Form from 1969. In 1990, we again changed 
to a 12-16 mixed comprehensive with pupils moving away to a central 
Sixth Form college after that.

I came up through the Infant at 5, Junior to 11+ and grammar school 
route. For many years there was no  pre-5 education on a organised 
national level. I started school in the term after I was 5 - in the summer 
term of 1945. Prior to that, my mother had informally taught me reading 
and simple Maths at home which was not uncommon.

On another topic, the names "freshman", "sophomore" etc. are not used 
in the UK in schools and I haven't heard reference to them being used in 
further education either. I've always seen them as being as US thing.

I hope that will make matters a little clearer.






From jaynesmith62 at btinternet.com  Sun May 18 20:58:39 2008
From: jaynesmith62 at btinternet.com (Jayne)
Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 20:58:39 -0000
Subject: Question for British list members/school years
In-Reply-To: <g0q4bd+bgeh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0q59v+hsga@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" 
<gbannister10 at ...> wrote:
>
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67@> wrote:
> >
> > Geoff:
> > > > 
> Can I make it clear that when I say, for example, entry at five, this 
> means the September following the child's fifth birthday, sometimes 
> called 5+.

Although nowadays they start in the year they turn 5 ,  in the 
September even if they are not 5 until the following August

Hope that is not too confusing also

Jayne




From marion11111 at yahoo.com  Sun May 18 21:53:40 2008
From: marion11111 at yahoo.com (marion11111)
Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 21:53:40 -0000
Subject: Question for British list members (school years)
In-Reply-To: <g0oa8s+js4a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0q8h4+d77p@eGroups.com>

> Catlady wrote: 
> > 
> > This is clearly not the case nowadays, when news reports are always
> full of 18 and 19 year old high school students who are old enough to
> vote, enlist in the military, and sign contracts without parental
> consent. Do you know when it changed, or is my memory just wrong?
> 
> Carol responds:
> 
> The ages didn't change, AFAIK, only the month when the children had 
to
> turn five to be enrolled in kindergarten. When I was little, the
> school districts used the calendar year, so a child had to turn five
> by December 31. The oldest kids were those born in January; the
> youngest, those born in December.


marion now:

Potioncat was right.  Many parents delay the start of kindergarten.  
School districts usually require a child to be 5 before the first day 
of school, but if the child turned 5 anytime during the summer many 
parents will hold them another year to "catch up."  It's kind of 
become a no-win cycle.  Since so many newly-turned-fives wait a year, 
many kindergarteners are 6 for most of the year.  This causes the 
younger kindergarteners to struggle to keep up developmentally, which 
in turn makes a good case for holding a child back a year.  It's 
crazy, but as a teacher I've recommended to friends that they hold 
children with summer birthdays back a year, especially if they are on 
the immature side.

I have one friend who sent her late-August-born son to kindergarten 
just after his 5th birthday.  He was very bright and has done well 
academically, but now in high school he'ss struggling in sports.  He's 
a full year younger than many other boys and, at that age, it shows in 
terms of athletic ability.

The other odd result of all this is that a number of students are 
taking Driver's Ed right out of 8th grade!  Aaack.




From catlady at wicca.net  Sun May 18 22:07:25 2008
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 22:07:25 -0000
Subject: UK school terminology
Message-ID: <g0q9au+cl4a@eGroups.com>

Geoff Bannister wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/36620>:
>
> Years 12/13 are not used as identifiers in the UK system.
> We continue to use the old terminology so you will see schools 
> referring to Lower Sixth/Upper Sixth or First Year Sixth/Second 
> Year Sixth.

Naturally, the bit of the old terminology that remains in use is 
the most confusing bit, the Sixth year that lasts two years.

Geoff Bannister wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/36627>:
>
> Can I make it clear that when I say, for example, entry at five, 
> this means the September following the child's fifth birthday, 
> sometimes called 5+.
> 
> Until the 1960s, which I will refer to later, state day schools
> were organised so that children attended an Infants school for two
> years starting from the age of five, then a Junior school for four
> years and then five years Secondary school from the age of 11 up to 
> national exams - I am not including Sixth Forms in this. Each 
> school would number its classes from 1 upwards.
(snip)
> At this time, there was a tendency with Public schools, both day
> and boarding, to start their secondary education at thirteen. Their 
> intake had often come from Preparatory schools who took an intake
> at 9. Just in passing, it is interesting that Hogwarts which is a 
> private boarding school followed the state transfer age pattern.

List member John Walton described his public school -- one thing 
was that new baby students age 13 were new Third Years. Which he 
said he assumed indicated that the school had originally extended
down to 11. Leading me to speculate that the state schools were 
following a transfer pattern which the public schools had formerly 
used, but the public schools changed. 
 
> The so-called three-tier system gained much ground at this time 
> with entry to a Primary/First school at 5, Middle school at 9 and 
> High school at 13. This was mainly because in many cases, LEAs could 
> adapt existing buildings at less cost!

I think that's the main reason for how American school districts 
assign grades to schools. When I was a child, I believe all LAUSD
was elementary school K thru 6, junior high 7 thru 9, and high 
school 10 thru 12. I read books about elementary schools 1 thru 8 
and high schools 9 thru 12. I heard of a lot more patterns from my 
college classmates -- several were used to primary K-5, middle 
school 6-8, high school 9-12.

One came from a school district which had high school 8 thru 12. The
8th graders were called 'sub-freshmen' and it was the school tradition
for older students to play tricks on the sub-freshmen like selling
them elevator passes (in a campus of all one-story buildings).

Anyway, I have the impression that this stuff is now not consistent 
throughout LAUSD, but they might change a school from primary K-4 
to primary K-3 and move 4th grade to some other building in order 
to make room for a big crop of entering primary students.

> I taught for 32 years in the same school in South London. when I 
> started, it was a Modern school, i.e. for those whose 11+ results 
> had not allowed them access to a grammar school and had boys from 
> 11-15/16. 

What was it like teaching at a Modern Secondary? I assume you became a
teacher because you believe in education, and there you were facing a
whole school of boys who knew they would leave school to seek jobs
when they turned 16. Did they even care about their O-levels?

> For many years there was no  pre-5 education on a organised 
> national level. I started school in the term after I was 5 - in 
> the summer term of 1945. Prior to that, my mother had informally 
> taught me reading and simple Maths at home which was not uncommon.

I don't know if any school district in the US provides pre-K 
education, or if all pre-K is left to parents, churches, charities, 
profit-making enterprises, and Head Start.

Kindergarten was invented in Germany (hence the name) and when it 
was introduced to America, it was not supposed to teach reading and 
simple arithmetic -- in those days, those were for first grade (6 
year olds). 

K was about three hours long each school day and was supposed to teach
children how to walk or take the bus to school, be in their assigned
place by the time the buzzer rang, raise their hand if they want to
speak while the teacher is addressing the class (only a few short
times a day, such as taking attendence or reading a story aloud; the
rest was playtime), ask permission if they have to go to the bathroom,
and, mainly, not to hit the other children when a adult is looking.

Nowadays all the children have been in all-day daycare while the
parents work since they were six months old, which is supposed to
teach the old Kindergarten lessons and also has so much time to fill
that they also teach letters and numbers and what-all.

So the kids arrive at kindergarten (viewed by the parents as a
mercifully low-cost daycare) already knowing simple reading and maths,
so K now includes a great deal more study in preparation for
standardized achievement tests than it did in my day.

Jayne wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/36628>:

<< Although nowadays they start in the year they turn 5 , in the
September even if they are not 5 until the following August
Hope that is not too confusing also >>

I think Geoff would call that age 4+. I might call it 5-. What do they
start at that age, Year 1? Or something like pre-K, presumably not
called Year 0 because of the Khmer Rouge connotations.





From highlander0912 at yahoo.com  Sun May 18 22:47:12 2008
From: highlander0912 at yahoo.com (highlander0912)
Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 22:47:12 -0000
Subject: Searching for a fic - need help, please!!
Message-ID: <g0qblg+aiup@eGroups.com>

Hi!  I'm new here and I'm hoping someone here can help me out - I was
referred here by another Yahoo Group.

I am searching for a Harry Potter slash fic featuring Harry/Sev.  As
you probably heard, Daniel Radcliffe is doing a play called Equine (I
think that's how it's spelled).  Anyway, long before this real life
event, there was a fic with almost the same premise.  Harry was an
actor starring in this same play.  Sev.  saw him performing in it.
He was sitting in one of those high up private boxes.

Anyway, I had the fic saved, but a few months ago, my computer
crashed with a fatal error and I lost a LOT of fics I had saved,
including this one.  I have recovered almost all of the other fics,
but this one stands out in my mind (it was REALLY good) and I can't
find it anywhere.  I've searched all of the major HP fic sites to
no avail.  Unfortunately, I can't remember the name or author, just
the storyline.  I'm hoping someone here can help. I really would like
to read this fic. again and save it.

Thanks in advance for any help.

Kelly C.





From gav_fiji at yahoo.com  Sun May 18 23:46:35 2008
From: gav_fiji at yahoo.com (Goddlefrood)
Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 23:46:35 -0000
Subject: Children's books (was Inside, Outside, Near Lane, Far Lane, whatever...)
In-Reply-To: <000001c8b902$de682720$67a4a8c0@FRODO>
Message-ID: <g0qf4r+c8lp@eGroups.com>

> [Mary Ann]:
> | the term that puzzled me for a long time was "torch",

> [Lee]:
> <LOL> I remember my first run-in with "torch" in "Prince Caspian,"
> where Edmund had a battery-operated torch

Goddlefrood:

A torch makes perfect sense to me. Flashlights don't flash, now do 
they?





From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Sun May 18 23:47:00 2008
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 23:47:00 -0000
Subject: Searching for a fic - need help, please!!
In-Reply-To: <g0qblg+aiup@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0qf5k+dao1@eGroups.com>

Highlander

> I am searching for a Harry Potter slash fic featuring Harry/Sev.  As
> you probably heard, Daniel Radcliffe is doing a play called Equine (I
> think that's how it's spelled).  Anyway, long before this real life
> event, there was a fic with almost the same premise.  Harry was an
> actor starring in this same play.  Sev.  saw him performing in it.
> He was sitting in one of those high up private boxes.

Magpie:
Sorry I don't know the fic, but maybe you're having trouble because of 
the play's name? It's not Equine, it's Equus. Maybe if you try 
searching for fics with Harry, Snape, Severus and Equus in them you 
could find it?

-m




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Mon May 19 01:47:32 2008
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 01:47:32 -0000
Subject: Book recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <fvn5r1+ocdt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0qm7k+33t8@eGroups.com>


> 
> Carol:
> I like "The Scarlet Letter," bu I could live without "The Minister's
> Black Veil" and some of the other short works. And I'd like "Young
> Goodman Brown" better if it didn't refer to my ancestor, Martha
> Carrier, as "a rampant hag" and "the promised bride of hell."


Potioncat:
How long since you last read "Young Goodman Brown"? I just checked 
out a World's Classics version of "Young Goodman Brown and Other 
Stories."

I was quite surprised to learn that the Devil is a Slytherin, and 
that Colonial witches used Portkeys. Or at least, the Slytherin-like 
man in question indicated he was the Devil; and the Portkey wasn't 
called that, but worked like one.

Wolf's-bane is mentioned and we're told in "Explanatory Notes" that 
it's an aconite. The witches also fly without a broom, which hadn't 
even dawned on me when Snape took flight. That is, it hadn't dawned 
on me that there was already a tradition of wizarding kind flying 
without brooms.

As for Martha Carrier, this version makes her "Queen of Hell." Is 
there a character in "The Crucible" named Martha Carrier?







From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon May 19 02:35:43 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 02:35:43 -0000
Subject: Book recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <g0qm7k+33t8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0qp1v+iubk@eGroups.com>

Carol earlier:
> > I like "The Scarlet Letter," bu I could live without "The
Minister's Black Veil" and some of the other short works. And I'd like
"Young Goodman Brown" better if it didn't refer to my ancestor, Martha
Carrier, as "a rampant hag" and "the promised bride of hell."
> 
> Potioncat:
> How long since you last read "Young Goodman Brown"? I just checked
out a World's Classics version of "Young Goodman Brown and Other 
Stories."
> 
> I was quite surprised to learn that the Devil is a Slytherin, and 
that Colonial witches used Portkeys. Or at least, the Slytherin-like
man in question indicated he was the Devil; and the Portkey wasn't
called that, but worked like one.
> 
> Wolf's-bane is mentioned and we're told in "Explanatory Notes" that
it's an aconite. The witches also fly without a broom, which hadn't 
even dawned on me when Snape took flight. That is, it hadn't dawned on
me that there was already a tradition of wizarding kind flying without
brooms.
> 
> As for Martha Carrier, this version makes her "Queen of Hell." Is 
> there a character in "The Crucible" named Martha Carrier?

Carol responds:
It's been quite a while, as you've guessed. I should reread it for the
elements it shares with the HP books--not that Hawthorne could have
borrowed from JKR, obviously, but she could have been influenced by
him, or by the transcripts of the original trial (Hawthorne's
descriptions of Martha Carrier are either verbatim or adapted from
Cotton Mather's assessment of her). Anyway, I don't recall the
references to aconite or anything resembling portkeys, so obviously, I
need to refresh my memory! I still think that the 1692 date for the
Statute of Secrecy (in the earlier books--DH alters it to 1689) could
have been influenced by the Salem Witch Trials, Massachusetts being
owned by England at that time and British witches and Wizards perhaps
not sharing the contempt for "the colonies" that English Muggles may
have felt at that period.

Martha Carrier doesn't appear in "the Crucible," probably because
there's another character (or voice) named Martha Corey. They were
both historical persons but I don't think there was a direct
connection between them unless you count both of them having giving
birth to illegitimate sons before their marriages. Martha Carrier
would have made a great character, though. She refused to confess or
to look at the girls who accused her because "they will dissemble if I
look upon them."

You may be interested in a short and highly readable account of Martha
Carrier's life and personality at

 http://www.iath.virginia.edu/salem/people/carrier.html

I've bookmarked it for future reference.

Carol, proud of her feisty ancestor and wondering whether she forgave
her two youngest children, aged seven and ten, for testifying against
her after their older brothers were tortured 





From n2fgc at arrl.net  Mon May 19 03:57:28 2008
From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Lee Storm(God Is The Healing Force))
Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 23:57:28 -0400
Subject: Stonewall High (was RE: Question for British list members (school
 years))
In-Reply-To: <g0o03k+2tgt@eGroups.com>
References: <g0nn0h+k810@eGroups.com> <g0o03k+2tgt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <001401c8b964$7506b0a0$67a4a8c0@FRODO>

I know we've had this once before, but don't ask me to I know we have
tackled this before, but please don't ask me to beat on YahooMort to find
it.

If, at the age of 11, kids in the UK are going into the 6th grade, how can
Harry be going to Stonewall High?  Does High School start at 6th grade?

Cheers,
Lee :-)

Do not walk behind me,    | Lee Storm
I may not care to lead;   | N2FGC
Do not walk before me,    | n2fgc at arrl.net (or)
I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at optonline.net
Walk beside me, and be my friend.





From predigirl1 at yahoo.com  Mon May 19 04:04:37 2008
From: predigirl1 at yahoo.com (Alex Hogan)
Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 21:04:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Searching for a fic - need help, please!!
In-Reply-To: <g0qblg+aiup@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <131716.44384.qm@web63704.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

It's "Equus". A very disturbing play . I saw it on HBO years ago. Ick. I'm sure Daniel is great in it, but I have no desire to se it again. Kind of like "Closet Land".
   
  Alex Hogan
   
   
  
highlander0912 <highlander0912 at yahoo.com> wrote:
          Hi! I'm new here and I'm hoping someone here can help me out - I was 
referred here by another Yahoo Group.

I am searching for a Harry Potter slash fic featuring Harry/Sev. As 
you probably heard, Daniel Radcliffe is doing a play called Equine (I 
think that's how it's spelled). Anyway, long before this real life 
event, there was a fic with almost the same premise. Harry was an 
actor starring in this same play. Sev. saw him performing in it. 
He was sitting in one of those high up private boxes. 

Anyway, I had the fic saved, but a few months ago, my computer 
crashed with a fatal error and I lost a LOT of fics I had saved, 
including this one. I have recovered almost all of the other fics, 
but this one stands out in my mind (it was REALLY good) and I can't 
find it anywhere. I've searched all of the major HP fic sites to
no avail. Unfortunately, I can't remember the name or author, just 
the storyline. I'm hoping someone here can help. I really would like 
to read this fic. again and save it.

Thanks in advance for any help.

Kelly C.



                           

       

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Mon May 19 06:37:35 2008
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 06:37:35 -0000
Subject: Stonewall High (was RE: Question for British list members (school years))
In-Reply-To: <001401c8b964$7506b0a0$67a4a8c0@FRODO>
Message-ID: <g0r77f+4rf3@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Lee Storm(God Is The Healing Force)" 
<n2fgc at ...> wrote:
>
> I know we've had this once before, but don't ask me to I know we have
> tackled this before, but please don't ask me to beat on YahooMort to find
> it.
> 
> If, at the age of 11, kids in the UK are going into the 6th grade, how can
> Harry be going to Stonewall High?  Does High School start at 6th grade?
> 
> Cheers,
> Lee :-)

Geoff:
No. Pupils in the UK will reach 11 while they are in Year 6.

Harry is eleven on 31/07/91. Since his birthday is before the cutoff date of 
31/08/91, he is i the "11+" category by 01/09/91 so is eligible to go into 
the First Year at both Stonewall and Hogwarts. In modern terms, that is 
Year 7.




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Mon May 19 14:35:25 2008
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 14:35:25 -0000
Subject: Book recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <g0qp1v+iubk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0s37d+rpd4@eGroups.com>

 
> Carol responds:
 I still think that the 1692 date for the
> Statute of Secrecy (in the earlier books--DH alters it to 1689) 
could
> have been influenced by the Salem Witch Trials, Massachusetts being
> owned by England at that time and British witches and Wizards 
perhaps
> not sharing the contempt for "the colonies" that English Muggles may
> have felt at that period.

Potioncat:
I could have sworn that JKR made some comment about reading 
Hawthorne, but when I checked QuikQuoteQuils, I can only find 
hawthorne wands. I think you're right, but we'll probably never know. 
She knew enough about Salem Witch Trails to put the American School 
of Witchcraft there. (Don't remembe what she named it.)

>Carol: 
> Martha Carrier doesn't appear in "the Crucible," probably because
> there's another character (or voice) named Martha Corey. They were
> both historical persons but I don't think there was a direct
> connection between them unless you count both of them having giving
> birth to illegitimate sons before their marriages.

Potioncat:
Martha Corey is named in "Goodman Brown" as the unhanged witch. It 
seems she was fortunate enough to survive the hysteria. 

Carol:
> You may be interested in a short and highly readable account of 
Martha
> Carrier's life and personality at
> 
>  http://www.iath.virginia.edu/salem/people/carrier.html
> 
> I've bookmarked it for future reference.

Potioncat:
You know, the more I learn about our forefathers, the less I like 
them. Our ancestors (collective) have lived through some interesting 
times. 

Looking at "Goodman Brown" and at the few quick historical pieces 
over the past few days, I'm reminded why JKR's WW is the way it is. 
Historically, we looked upon witches as spiteful and as causing 
illness and other problems. I think JKR kept a bit of that in her 
characters.

I snipped your comment about the Carrier children. Who could blame 
any of them for their testimony. I wonder if Martha was able to speak 
to them before she died? I think their story would be as interesting 
as hers.

BTW, Martha Carrier reminds me of Hermione. 




From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Mon May 19 16:00:37 2008
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 16:00:37 -0000
Subject: Question for British list members/school years
In-Reply-To: <g0q59v+hsga@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0s875+edj6@eGroups.com>

---  "Jayne" <jaynesmith62 at ...> wrote:
>
> ---  "Geoff Bannister" <gbannister10@> wrote:

> > >
> > > Geoff:
> > > > > 
> > Can I make it clear that when I say, for example, entry at 
> > five, this means the September following the child's fifth
> > birthday, sometimes called 5+.

> Jayne:
> 
> Although nowadays they start in the year they turn 5, in the 
> September even if they are not 5 until the following August
> 
> Hope that is not too confusing also
> 
> Jayne
>


bboyminn:

Actually, it is a little confusing. Let me restate both cases
and see if I understand it right.

In Geoff's case, he is simply saying, you have to be age 5 when
you start school, no exceptions. I assume this means the cut-off
date is the first day of school. 

Jayne is saying that you have to be age 5 or turn age 5 during 
the school year (the SCHOOL year, not the calendar year).

So, in Jayne's case, if a child is age 4, and in MAY of the 
following calendar year they turn age 5, they could start 
school in the previous September because they would turn 5 
during the school year. Our school year is usually the 
beginning of September through the end of May; with June, July,
and August being the typical three month summer holiday.

In the USA, where we have a nasty habit of trying to 
accommodate anyone who complains, especially if they have
money and status, the cut-off date is always in contention.
There is always some kid who turns the correct age a day or
two after the cut-off date and  whose parents think it is 
unfair that they can't start school with their friends. 
Consequently, they cut-of dates are shifted all over the place
trying to set a reasonable cut-off while accommodating the 
complainers. 

So, do I understand both sides correctly?

Steve/bboyminn




From jaynesmith62 at btinternet.com  Mon May 19 16:23:51 2008
From: jaynesmith62 at btinternet.com (Jayne)
Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 16:23:51 -0000
Subject: Question for British list members/school years
In-Reply-To: <g0s875+edj6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0s9in+7n12@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <bboyminn at ...> wrote:
>
> ---  "Jayne" <jaynesmith62@> wrote:
> >
> > ---  "Geoff Bannister" <gbannister10@> wrote:
> 
> > > >
> > > > Geoff:
> > > > > > 
> > > Can I make it clear that when I say, for example, entry at 
> > > five, this means the September following the child's fifth
> > > birthday, sometimes called 5+.
> 
> > Jayne:
> > 
> > Although nowadays they start in the year they turn 5, in the 
> > September even if they are not 5 until the following August
> > 
> > Hope that is not too confusing also
> > 
> > Jayne
> >
> 
> 
> bboyminn:
> 
> Actually, it is a little confusing. Let me restate both cases
> and see if I understand it right.
> 
> In Geoff's case, he is simply saying, you have to be age 5 when
> you start school, no exceptions. I assume this means the cut-off
> date is the first day of school. 
> 
> Jayne is saying that you have to be age 5 or turn age 5 during 
> the school year (the SCHOOL year, not the calendar year).
> 
> So, in Jayne's case, if a child is age 4, and in MAY of the 
> following calendar year they turn age 5, they could start 
> school in the previous September because they would turn 5 
> during the school year. Our school year is usually the 
> beginning of September through the end of May; with June, July,
> and August being the typical three month summer holiday.
> 
> In the USA, where we have a nasty habit of trying to 
> accommodate anyone who complains, especially if they have
> money and status, the cut-off date is always in contention.
> There is always some kid who turns the correct age a day or
> two after the cut-off date and  whose parents think it is 
> unfair that they can't start school with their friends. 
> Consequently, they cut-of dates are shifted all over the place
> trying to set a reasonable cut-off while accommodating the 
> complainers. 
> 
> So, do I understand both sides correctly?
> 
> Steve/bboyminn
>
Yes. Much better put than I did Steve.Yours is less confusing

Jayne






From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon May 19 17:31:13 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 17:31:13 -0000
Subject: Stonewall High (was RE: Question for British list members (school years))
In-Reply-To: <g0r77f+4rf3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0sdh1+328c@eGroups.com>

Lee wrote:
> > If, at the age of 11, kids in the UK are going into the 6th grade,
how can Harry be going to Stonewall High?  Does High School start at
6th grade?
 
> Geoff:
> No. Pupils in the UK will reach 11 while they are in Year 6.
> 
> Harry is eleven on 31/07/91. Since his birthday is before the cutoff
date of 31/08/91, he is i the "11+" category by 01/09/91 so is
eligible to go into the First Year at both Stonewall and Hogwarts. In
modern terms, that is Year 7.
>
Carol responds:
Lee, as I understand it, Year 7 is the same as our sixth grade because
 the UK's Year 1 is the same as our kindergarten (only with a full day
rather than a half day of school).

So a UK high school would be like a combined middle school and high
school in the U.S.--their sixth through eleventh years, which equates
to our fifth through tenth grades. 

Geoff, please correct me if I'm wrong, but a high school (as opposed
to a "public" school like Eton) wouldn't have the last two years (the
upper and lower sixth form), which correspond to our eleventh and
twelfth grades (junior and senior years). Is that correct? I get the
idea that state schools provide free education but the students who
attend them are generally either working class students or those who
for some reasons did poorly on exams and don't plan to attend a
university.

I may have it all wrong still!

Carol, praying that her modem won't act up again and getting a new one
tomorrow




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon May 19 18:58:17 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 18:58:17 -0000
Subject: "The Great British Punctuation Shortage"
Message-ID: <g0sik9+jmru@eGroups.com>

Just for fun, since we've been talking about British/American
stylistic differences, here's a link to an entertaining article on
that topic which also happens to mention that HP books:

http://ozandends.blogspot.com/2007/02/great-british-punctuation-shortage.html

Carol, keeping the message short in case her modem becomes
uncooperative again




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Mon May 19 19:14:16 2008
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 19:14:16 -0000
Subject: Stonewall High (was RE: Question for British list members (school years))
In-Reply-To: <g0sdh1+328c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0sji8+j7kl@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:
>
> Lee wrote:
> > > If, at the age of 11, kids in the UK are going into the 6th grade,
> how can Harry be going to Stonewall High?  Does High School start at
> 6th grade?
>  
> > Geoff:
> > No. Pupils in the UK will reach 11 while they are in Year 6.
> > 
> > Harry is eleven on 31/07/91. Since his birthday is before the cutoff
> date of 31/08/91, he is i the "11+" category by 01/09/91 so is
> eligible to go into the First Year at both Stonewall and Hogwarts. In
> modern terms, that is Year 7.
> >
> Carol responds:
> Lee, as I understand it, Year 7 is the same as our sixth grade because
>  the UK's Year 1 is the same as our kindergarten (only with a full day
> rather than a half day of school).
> 
> So a UK high school would be like a combined middle school and high
> school in the U.S.--their sixth through eleventh years, which equates
> to our fifth through tenth grades. 

Geoff:
"High school" became rather fashionable as a title when the comprehensive 
programme was launched by the Wilson government back in the sixties as 
I outlined in a recent post. A more modern game is to call the top school in 
your structure a "Community College".

I think the best thing I can do to try to anchor dates and ages etc. for 
comparison with the US arrangement is to stick to the "11+" point in time. 
Under old system, this year was when a pupil transferred to a Secondary 
school and went into First Year - the First year as Harry knows it at Hogwarts. 
This year is now known as Year 7 in schools in England and Wales. I think 
this is also true of Scottish schools but please remember that the Scottish 
education system operates independently of Wales and England.

To define it again, a pupil enters Year 7, in the September which follows 
the academic year in which they became 11. In other words, a pupil entering 
Year 7 this year, technically from 01/09/08 must have reached the age of 11 
between 01/09/07 and 31/08/08.

If you step this back or forward a year at a time, you can see how this relates 
to earlier or later years.

In some cases, a school's structure will be the same as the US setup. It
depends what the LEA has put in place. As I have said previously, all state 
schools transferred pupils to Secondary schools at 11+ until the late 1960s. 
At that point in time, a large number of LEAs opted to go for a three-tier 
"middle school" structure with transfer to the most senior school being at 
13+ so that those schools operating like this today (as they do in my area) 
have a Year 9, 10 and 11 followed usually by a Sixth Form, unless they have 
a centralised Sixth Form College arrangement.

In recent years there has been some backtracking towards the 11+ structure 
again. In the area where I used to teach I started in 1961 in an 11+ (entry at 
Year 7) setup until 1969 when we changed to a Middle school/High  school 
system at 13+ with High schools carrying Years 9-11 plus Sixth Form. then 
in 1990, we changed to a High school with Year 8-11 and pupils going to a 
Sixth Form College after that. The latest I headr is that they are now moving 
back to a transfer at Year 7. Help. It ain't easy to follow.

Carol:
> Geoff, please correct me if I'm wrong, but a high school (as opposed
> to a "public" school like Eton) wouldn't have the last two years (the
> upper and lower sixth form), which correspond to our eleventh and
> twelfth grades (junior and senior years). Is that correct? I get the
> idea that state schools provide free education but the students who
> attend them are generally either working class students or those who
> for some reasons did poorly on exams and don't plan to attend a
> university.

Geoff:
You need to realise that the private sector, i.e. Public schools and other 
private schools make up a very small percentage of  UK schools. Pupils go 
to these because parents /choose/ them for their offspring and pay for the 
privilege.  And some fee-paying schools also operate an entrance exam 
scheme, The great majority of UK pupils are in the state system. Unless an 
LEA has opted for a Sixth Form College, then they will have a High school/
Community College/secondary school (call it what you will!) with a Sixth 
Form. All state schooling is free. The divisions between grammar schools, 
where you had to pass the 11+ exam to get in, and secondary moderns 
which were for the rest have largely been removed by the introduction of 
comprehensive schools.






From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon May 19 23:02:53 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 23:02:53 -0000
Subject: Stonewall High (was RE: Question for British list members (school years))
In-Reply-To: <g0sji8+j7kl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0t0ut+ead2@eGroups.com>

Geoff:
> You need to realise that the private sector, i.e. Public schools and
other private schools make up a very small percentage of UK schools.
Pupils go to these because parents /choose/ them for their offspring
and pay for the privilege.  And some fee-paying schools also operate
an entrance exam scheme, The great majority of UK pupils are in the
state system. Unless an LEA has opted for a Sixth Form College, then
they will have a High school/Community College/secondary school (call
it what you will!) with a Sixth Form. All state schooling is free. The
divisions between grammar schools, where you had to pass the 11+ exam
to get in, and secondary moderns which were for the rest have largely
been removed by the introduction of comprehensive schools.


Carol responds:
Okay. I'm starting to get the picture. However, I thought that the
Britishe term "public school" was synonymous with "private school" as
used in the U.S. (excluding parochial schools, which are private
schools run by a church or similar institution, often Roman Catholic).

Also, I'm not quite sure what "comprehensive school" means. Does that
mean a state-run public school open to any student without cost like a
U.S. public school? ("Comprehensive" usually means "covering
everything," so I don't quite understand what it "comprehends" in this
instance.)

BTW, "community colleges" in the U.S. are not secondary schools but
inexpensive alternatives to state universities or private colleges.
They offer two-year "associate" degrees in contrast to the usual
four-year bachelor of arts or sciences. Many students start out at a
community college and transfer to a university for their second or
third year. (Not all their credits transfer, unfortunately.)

Carol, speaking from her own experience teaching at the university
level, or rather, from that of her former students, which may differ
from that of other posters on the list, especially since it was some
time ago (1981-98)




From mcrudele78 at yahoo.com  Tue May 20 00:18:53 2008
From: mcrudele78 at yahoo.com (Mike)
Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 00:18:53 -0000
Subject: Question for British list members/PS for Goddlefrood
In-Reply-To: <g0o92v+ltdi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0t5dd+b0ns@eGroups.com>

> Carol responds:
> <snip>
> 
> In the U.S., they enter kindergarten (half-days of school) at age 
> five and first grade at age six. 

Mike:
The Charter school I worked for runs things a little differently. 
They call Kindergarten through 2nd grade their "Primary School" 
kids and they all (Kindergarten too) have shortened but full school 
days. They get out at 3:15 pm at this school.

Grades 3 through 5 were called "Elementary School" and Grades 6, 7, 
and 8 were called the "Junior Academy". That's as high as the school 
went. All of these grades got out at 4:00 pm at this school.

Obviously, Junior Academy corresponds to what is now called "Middle 
School" in most public school systems nowadays. In my day, we called 
it Junior High and it was made up of 7th, 8th, & 9th graders. We 
didn't go to High School until the 10th grade. But I know other 
school systems even in our day had 9th graders in High School.

I lived in Michigan and "in my day" means the beginning of the 70s, I 
graduated in '74. I'm curious, for anybody else around my timeframe 
but in different states, when did you start High School?



> Carol:
> ACTs (I've forgotten what it stands for--academic something-or-
> other tests, probably) 

Mike:
American College Testing. It might have gone by a different name in 
our day, Carol.




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue May 20 00:39:46 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 00:39:46 -0000
Subject: Question for British list members/PS for Goddlefrood
In-Reply-To: <g0t5dd+b0ns@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0t6ki+jksv@eGroups.com>


> > Carol:
> > ACTs (I've forgotten what it stands for--academic something-or-
other tests, probably) 
> 
> Mike:
> American College Testing. It might have gone by a different name in
our day, Carol.
>
Carol:
No. I'm sure that the name hasn't changed. It's just so long ago and
far away that I've forgotten everything except the sheer terror of
sitting in the auditorium with the test booklets and dull number two
pencils and (IIRC) pink-and-white answer sheets, trying to fill in the
circles (were they circles?) completely, occasionally having to erase
and fearing that I wasn't erasing completely, wondering whether to
take my time and get the questions I answered right or hurry through
and answer more questions. (Were wrong answers penalized? I've
forgotten.) Did we have boards on our laps to compensate for not
sitting at desks?

All that remains is "The horror! The horror!" to quote Mistah Kurtz.

Carol, whose last standardized test, the GRE (Graduate Record exam) in
grad school, was equally traumatic (as was opening up the envelope to
see the scores--Hermione, I know how you feel!)






From kempermentor at yahoo.com  Tue May 20 03:57:37 2008
From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kempermentor)
Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 03:57:37 -0000
Subject: Stonewall High (was RE: Question for British list members (school years))
In-Reply-To: <g0t0ut+ead2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0ti7h+9r40@eGroups.com>

> Carol responds:
> BTW, "community colleges" in the U.S. are not secondary schools but
> inexpensive alternatives to state universities or private colleges.
> They offer two-year "associate" degrees in contrast to the usual
> four-year bachelor of arts or sciences. Many students start out at a
> community college and transfer to a university for their second or
> third year. (Not all their credits transfer, unfortunately.)

Kemper now:
Many also get their degree and enter into the workforce having learned
a trade or other profession.  

I think the best paying job for the least amount of school (and
therefore money)is an Associates of Science Degree in Nursing.  

I've considered it, but if just seems too damned hard.  

Kemper




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Tue May 20 06:48:08 2008
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 06:48:08 -0000
Subject: Stonewall High (was RE: Question for British list members (school years))
In-Reply-To: <g0t0ut+ead2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0ts78+nq6c@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:
 
Carol:
> Okay. I'm starting to get the picture. However, I thought that the
> Britishe term "public school" was synonymous with "private school" as
> used in the U.S. (excluding parochial schools, which are private
> schools run by a church or similar institution, often Roman Catholic).

Geoff:
A UK joke is that Public schools are not public in its norma;l sense. 
They are fee-paying, private schools sometimes with ` background 
of having been established by philanthropists or charitable bodies. 
Some have entrance exams which can award scholarships so that 
clever children from poorer backgrounds can gain access. They 
include schools such as Harrow, Eton and Rugby. There are also 
a fair number of private schools established independently in 
more recent years.

Carol: 
> Also, I'm not quite sure what "comprehensive school" means. Does that
> mean a state-run public school open to any student without cost like a
> U.S. public school? ("Comprehensive" usually means "covering
> everything," so I don't quite understand what it "comprehends" in this
> instance.)

Geoff:
As I described, prior to the 1960s Labour government initiatives, all 
children in state schools took the "11+" exam. If you were successful, 
you could go to a grammar school which would have a Sixth Form and 
would also put pupils through the Matric exams - GCE after 1951. If you 
were not successful, you went to a Secondary Modern school which gave 
a good education up to Fifth Year (current Year 11) but if you wanted 
further education you would go to a college of some description (and 
could also get to University along this route if you were good enough); 
alternatively, you could enter into an apprenticeship or vocational 
training depending or what job you had in mind.

The comprehensive school brought all children under one roof. They 
were bigger and therefore had more facilities to deal with a wide range or 
educational needs and aspirations. The early ones - some of which pre-dated 
the 1960s legislation because they were introduced by big Labour-controlled 
authorities such as the London County Council - handled 2000 pupils but the 
current comprehensives tend to take about 1200.

Carol: 
> BTW, "community colleges" in the U.S. are not secondary schools but
> inexpensive alternatives to state universities or private colleges.
> They offer two-year "associate" degrees in contrast to the usual
> four-year bachelor of arts or sciences. Many students start out at a
> community college and transfer to a university for their second or
> third year. (Not all their credits transfer, unfortunately.)

Geoff:
Community College here is just the "in" word for Secondary schools. 
Sometimes, as in my own area, they also offer facilities for everyone 
outside school hours such as a sports centre.




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Tue May 20 11:06:09 2008
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 11:06:09 -0000
Subject: Stonewall High (was RE: Question for British list members (school years))
In-Reply-To: <g0ti7h+9r40@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0ubb1+j19i@eGroups.com>


> Kemper now:
> Many also get their degree and enter into the workforce having learned
> a trade or other profession.  
> 
> I think the best paying job for the least amount of school (and
> therefore money)is an Associates of Science Degree in Nursing.  
> 
> I've considered it, but if just seems too damned hard.  


Potioncat:
There is a clattering of metal tray on floor and the tiny sound of 
bouncing pills fill the air.

Are you sure of that? Perhaps if you're comparing professions that 
require an AD. I haven't actually made that comparison.

I know a number of trades that provide education and on-the-job 
experience with a salary and benefits during training. We were 
encouraging my son to go for Master Electrician. He'd be making more 
than I do in 3 years. (I have a BS in nursing, and quite a few years 
experience.)

An AD in nursing does cost less than the BS, but it does limit 
advancement. On the other hand, it's not too difficult to get the BS 
afterwards. But you are right. Standard hospital nursing is a hard 
profession.

Potioncat, thinking that they probably haven't used metal trays for 
pills in years--erm decades.






From kempermentor at yahoo.com  Tue May 20 13:16:06 2008
From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kempermentor)
Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 13:16:06 -0000
Subject: Stonewall High (was RE: Question for British list members (school years))
In-Reply-To: <g0ubb1+j19i@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0uium+tmvk@eGroups.com>


> Kemper earlier:
> I think the best paying job for the least amount of school (and
> therefore money)is an Associates of Science Degree in Nursing.  

> Potioncat:
> Are you sure of that? Perhaps if you're comparing professions that 
> require an AD. I haven't actually made that comparison.
> 
> I know a number of trades that provide education and on-the-job 
> experience with a salary and benefits during training. We were 
> encouraging my son to go for Master Electrician. He'd be making more 
> than I do in 3 years. (I have a BS in nursing, and quite a few years 
> experience.)

Kemper now:
Here are comparative links from the US Bureau of Labor and Statistics:
Electrician:
http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes472111.htm
Registered Nurse:
http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes291111.htm

The mean hourly for Electrician is $23.12
The mean hourly for RN is $30.04

The middle 50% of the median of Electricians earn between 
$16.50 - $28.77
The middle 50% of the median of RNs earn between
$23.95 - $35.18 

The job opportunities for an Electrician are projected to be average.
The job opportunites for an RN are projected to be excellent.


> Potioncat:
> An AD in nursing does cost less than the BS, but it does limit 
> advancement. On the other hand, it's not too difficult to get the BS 
> afterwards. But you are right. Standard hospital nursing is a hard 
> profession.

Kemper now:
That part seems easier than the schooling... especially the current
pre-reqs and the first year of a two year program.
I hear this from many a nursing student: c=rn

Kemper, helping potioncat pick up the antiquated metal tray and pills
and counting them to make sure they are, well, accounted





From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Tue May 20 14:42:18 2008
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 14:42:18 -0000
Subject: UK School vs Generic USA School ... (...Re: Question for British ...)
In-Reply-To: <g0t5dd+b0ns@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0uo0a+136l@eGroups.com>

---  "Mike" <mcrudele78 at ...> wrote:

> 
> Mike:
> The Charter school I worked for runs things a little differently. 
> They call Kindergarten through 2nd grade their "Primary School" 
> kids ...
> 
> Grades 3 through 5 were called "Elementary School" and Grades 
> 6, 7, and 8 were called the "Junior Academy". That's as high 
> as the school went. All of these grades got out at 4:00 pm at 
> this school.
> 
> ...

bboyminn:

For what it's worth, I probably went to the most generically
structured American school.

Kindergarten - half day or every other day 

1st through 6th grade - 'Grade' school, full day. Sometimes
referred to as Primary School but most often simply 'Grade
School'. 

7th and 8th grade - Junior High School or middle school

9th through 12th grade - High School - Freshman, Sophomore, 
Junior, and Senior

The next level was different back then, but now Community
Colleges are a combination of Academic, Trade, and Technical
schools. As others have pointed out, you can get a two 
year Associate Degree in a general academic area like business,
Liberal Arts, or general science. You can study technical areas
like computer programming, and computer repair. Or, you can study
technical trades like automotive, construction, manufacturing,
or trades in the service sector.

A parallel path to that would be either a state four year 
college or university, with state colleges being more minor 
institutions of higher learning and therefore cheaper, and 
state university meaning THE State University, which is a 
larger, more prominent, prestigious, and expensive school, or
a private college or university. Private colleges and 
universities are usually considered the best and the most 
expensive. 

Usually, you are required to carry 16 credit hours per
semester to be considered full time and to graduate in four
years. I took 12 credit hours and was still considered a full
time student. Less that 12 credit hours was considered part
time.

Typical classes like Math, business, etc... are 3 to 4 credit
hours each. On rare occasion an upper level class might be
5 credit hours. Physical education classes and minor general
information classes were typically 1 to 2 credit hours. I
think I had accumulated something like 220 credit hours when
I graduated from state college.

Middle school in the USA seems to be the most variable. In
some cases it is grades 6 through 8, in other cases, it is
grades 7 through 9, or as above, in my case, simply 7th and
8th grade.

School alter their middle school for a variety of reasons.
Some are trying to get kids of similar maturity levels 
together. For other schools, it is simply a matter of logistics.
The break the grades apart according to how much room they
have and where they have it. It should be noted that to greater
and lesser extents, USA schools try to keep grade, junior/middle,
and high school students apart. In larger school systems, that
mean separate buildings at different locations. In smaller 
schools, they are usually in separate parts of the same large 
building complex.

Another unique part of USA schools is that in 'grade' school,
you have one teacher teaching all subjects. As soon as you
enter junior or middle school, it is structured more like
high school where you have one separate teacher for each
subject plus study hall periods.  

I'm under the impression that someone who completes 5th FORM
(for lack of a better distinction) in the UK, has the equivalent
of a high school diploma in the USA. What are now referred to 
as upper and lower 6th Form are the UK equivalent of college 
preparation courses.

In the USA, high school students choose a course of study that
either leads to college or leads to trades while they are
still in high school. Those wishing to go to college choose
the courses necessary to gain college admittance. Those not
wishing to go to college most likely concentrate on less
demanding and more trade oriented classes. So, I think in
that sense, we (in the USA) have rolled upper and lower 6th
form into the general curriculum of our four year high school. 

Now days modern USA high schools have AP or Advanced Placement 
classes where high school level students can go to the local
college as part of their high school education. The college 
classes they take count both toward a college degree and 
toward their high school diploma. One advantage to the students
is that the State pays for those college classes. Many students
are able to make substantial in-roads toward their college 
degree while still in high school. 

The UK system doesn't seem that different from the USA 
system, they just use different terminology and a slightly
different structure. Though it does seem that the UK system
emphasizes subjects like history, literature, and English
more strongly. In the USA, if you plan to go on to college,
the emphasis is usually on business or science. It seems
the USA system, especially for those intent on going to 
college, the emphasis seems to concentrated on making money,
whereas the UK system seems to be more about gaining general
knowledge and perspective on the world. 

Just a few long rambling thoughts.

Steve/bboyminn




From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Tue May 20 15:16:38 2008
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 15:16:38 -0000
Subject: Question for British list members/PS for Goddlefrood
In-Reply-To: <g0o92v+ltdi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0uq0m+qqfd@eGroups.com>

---  "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:
>
> Carol earlier:
> 
> > > Carol, noting that in the U.S., fifth grade (which I assume
> corresponds with Year 5) is comprised mostly of ten- and
> eleven-year-olds (they'd be ten at the beginning of the year 
> but most will have turned eleven by this point in the school
>  year)
> >  
> > Geoff:
> > Year 7 corresponds to the old First Year which is for 
> > children who reached 11 in the currency of the previous 
> > school year.
> >
> <snip>> 
> > For cross-reference, the UK exam year when pupils take GCSE
> > exams and reach the age of 16 in that year is Year 11 (the 
> > old Fifth Year).
> > 
> > The all-through class numbering system became generally used
> > in the UK round about 1989/90.
> >
> Carol responds:
> So children enter what we would call first grade and you call
> Year One at age five rather than age six?
> 
> ...
> 
> I'm not sure what GCSE exams are. ...
> 

bboyminn:

Carol, think 'No Child Left Behind' and you will have a better
understanding of GCSE's. Though I think in the UK school 
certification is done by the government as we also see in the
Harry Potter books.

As you know, local school boards set the academic standards in
their schools, though certainly they follow state mandated
requirements. So, my niece, who just graduated, has a diploma
from the local school district not from the state of federal
government. Though, that diploma is recognized by the state and
federal government. 

President Bush implemented the routine testing of students call
'No Child Left Behind' in some obscure hope that it would improve 
education. Though cutting funding from poor performing schools d
oes not seem like the best method of reform in my book. 

However, my impression in the UK is that any certification you
receive in education comes from a central governing authority 
and is a result of test administered by that central authority.

> Carol:
>
> Do British schools have a Year Twelve, or do students finish 
> school and start university (or get a job) at seventeen 
> (sixteen for those born in summer) rather than eighteen 
> (seventeen for the summer-borns) as in the U.S.?
>

bboyminn:

Using Harry Potter as a model, students in the UK get one more
month of education per year than students in the USA. The
typical USA school year is 9 months with June, July, and August
being the summer holiday. In the UK, using HP as a model,
the summer holiday is July and August. 

In general I have heard it said that foreign students all spend
more time in the classroom than we do in the USA.

One of the reasons for the 3 month summer holiday has to do with
agriculture. During the planting, growing, and harvesting 
season students were needed at home to help with these tasks,
and that is still true to some extent today.

  
> Carol, wondering, if that's the case, why England doesn't just
> follow the WW's example and have kids come of age at seventeen
> :-)
>

bboyminn:

That might carry some weight if coming of age was about school.
But I think independent of school, 'coming of age' has to do 
with maturity level and a sense of responsibility. Though 
admittedly most 18 year olds are not that mature or responsible. 

Also, note that both countries have a staged approach to coming
of age. Usually at age 16 in both countries you are granted some
limited level of rights and responsibilities. At 18, new rights
and responsibilities are added. Finally at age 21, there are no
limits on your rights as a citizen. Exactly what happens at 
those ages differs in each country but the concept is the same.

Or so it seems to me.

Steve/bboyminn




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue May 20 15:24:35 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 15:24:35 -0000
Subject: Stonewall High (was RE: Question for British list members (school years))
In-Reply-To: <g0ts78+nq6c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0uqfj+kc7b@eGroups.com>

Geoff:
> A UK joke is that Public schools are not public in its norma;l
sense. They are fee-paying, private schools sometimes with `
background of having been established by philanthropists or charitable
bodies. Some have entrance exams which can award scholarships so that
clever children from poorer backgrounds can gain access. They include
schools such as Harrow, Eton and Rugby. There are also a fair number
of private schools established independently in more recent years.

Carol:
So, essentially, you have only the same three public schools that
existed in the early nineteenth century? (Byron attended Harrow and
Shelley, Eton.) Do they admit girls now and are they still as
prestigious as they once were? 
  
> Geoff:
> As I described, prior to the 1960s Labour government initiatives,
all children in state schools took the "11+" exam. If you were
successful, you could go to a grammar school which would have a Sixth
Form and would also put pupils through the Matric exams - GCE after
1951. <snip>

Carol:
Is "grammar school" equivalent to public school? I know that in
Shelley's day, they didn't teach *English* grammar at all. the boys
were expected to know Latin already, and, IIRC, they began learning
Greek on entering Eton. What else they studied, I don't recall. I'm
sure that the modern curriculum is very different. 

Geoff:
> The comprehensive school brought all children under one roof. They 
were bigger and therefore had more facilities to deal with a wide
range or educational needs and aspirations. <snip>

Carol responds:
So they're "comprehensive" in that they take students of all ages, say
five through eighteen, and all abilities (no entrance exam), with
preparation for university-bound students along with vocational
training for those who want a job straight out of school? If all state
schools are comprehensive, where do the secondary schools fit in? Are
they on the same grounds as the primary and elementary schools (if I
have the terms right--I don't dare go upthread with a feeble modem
that could go out at any moment) but in a separate building?

Carol, who wonders whether the British public encountered references
to American community colleges and misunderstood the term




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Tue May 20 15:27:14 2008
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 15:27:14 -0000
Subject: salaries was Re: Stonewall High (was RE:
In-Reply-To: <g0uium+tmvk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0uqki+50v1@eGroups.com>

> Kemper now:
> That part seems easier than the schooling... especially the current
> pre-reqs and the first year of a two year program.
> I hear this from many a nursing student: c=rn

Potioncat:
c=rn? I'm missing something.

> 
> Kemper, helping potioncat pick up the antiquated metal tray and 
pills
> and counting them to make sure they are, well, accounted

Potioncat:
Very glad I no longer have to give meds or account for them.
> 
> Kemper now:
> Here are comparative links from the US Bureau of Labor and 
Statistics:
> Electrician:
> http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes472111.htm
> Registered Nurse:
> http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes291111.htm

Potioncat:
And you trust the government?

Hmm, that's very interesting, and not at all what I've heard. Maybe I 
should stop giving career advice to my son! Maybe I should show this 
report to my employer!

I wonder how much the general numbers are skewed by salaries for 
nurses who have specialty training in critical ares who work night 
shifts; or by nurse practitioners who function as providers.

What I noticed right off is that the highest paid nurses work for the 
motion picture industry. What the heck do they do to get "that" much 
of an increase?

Well, my bags are packed and I'm off to find out.

Mr. Lucus, it's time for your back rub. I'll be right there Mr. 
Spielberg.

Yeah, I could handle the stress.






From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue May 20 15:59:44 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 15:59:44 -0000
Subject: UK School vs Generic USA School ... (...Re: Question for British ...)
In-Reply-To: <g0uo0a+136l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0ushg+n7nb@eGroups.com>

bboyminn wrote:
<snip>
> A parallel path to that would be either a state four year college or
university, with state colleges being more minor institutions of
higher learning and therefore cheaper, and state university meaning
THE State University, which is a larger, more prominent, prestigious,
and expensive school, or a private college or university. Private
colleges and universities are usually considered the best and the most
expensive. <snip>

Carol responds:
I don't know about other states, but Arizona has three state
universities (Arizona State University, the University of Arizona, and
Northern Arizona University) and New Mexico has two (New Mexico State
University and the University of New Mexico). Although only one
university in each state has the word "state" in its title, all are
owned and controlled by the state, AFAIK. At any rate, they're not
privately owned. I don't know about tuition costs, but there's no
difference in prestige among those various universities. However,
they're nowhere near as prestigious as some of the California
universities, which have, among other things, stiffer language
requirements for graduate school, which means that I couldn't even
apply, having taken only Latin in high school, or the Ivy League
colleges Back East.

Steve:
> Now days modern USA high schools have AP or Advanced Placement
classes where high school level students can go to the local college
as part of their high school education. The college classes they take
count both toward a college degree and toward their high school
diploma. One advantage to the students is that the State pays for
those college classes. Many students are able to make substantial
in-roads toward their college degree while still in high school. <snip>

Carol responds:
The only AP classes I'm familiar with (and things may have changed
since I stopped teaching freshman composition in 1998) are the AP
English classes, which do not substitute for freshman composition
although many students who took AP English end up in English 103,
which is the Honors equivalent of English 101. I don't know whether
they're taught on college campuses in some school districts; in my
experience, they're not. And, unfortunately, many AP English teachers
teach kids the five-paragraph theme under the delusion that they'll
write those abominable excuses for essays in college. They're doing
the students a great disservice considering that the five-paragraph
theme is a formula that limits thinking and doesn't fit most topics or
types of papers, such as a documented research paper or documented
argument (a paper taking a stand on a controversial issue, with
arguments supported by research and cited sources).

Kids who take AP classes these days (I'm basing my conclusions on my
niece, who was the valedictorian of her high school class) have (IMO)
and inflated grade average because instead of an A being 5.0 instead
of 4.0. So a kid who gets straight A's but doesn't take AP classes
will have a 4.0 average and a kid who gets straight A's taking AP
classes will have a 5.0. I don't know how the universities deal with
that in their admission requirements. It seems unfair to me,
especially given that students who took AP English had, in my
experience, an inflated notion of their own writing abilities.
Learning that five-paragraph themes were not acceptable took the wind
out of their sails.

In my day, long before AP classes existed, we had the option of
graduating half a year early and attending classes at Northern Arizona
University. I forget whether they were free or cost money. I decided,
along with most of my friends, to remain in high school, which was
familiar and free. I wanted to be as prepared as possible for college,
mentally and emotionally, and I knew that once I left high school,
there was no going back. It was the right decision for me at that
time. Nowadays, who knows? I'm glad I'm not a kid--or the parent of a
teenager facing today's tuition costs combined with inflation and what
looks like a recession.

Carol, sorry to sound like a female curmudgeon but thinking that some
things were better in the old days




From kempermentor at yahoo.com  Tue May 20 16:22:03 2008
From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kempermentor)
Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 16:22:03 -0000
Subject: salaries
In-Reply-To: <g0uqki+50v1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0utrb+5pq@eGroups.com>

> Kemper earlier:
> That part seems easier than the schooling... especially the 
> current pre-reqs and the first year of a two year program.
> I hear this from many a nursing student: c=rn

> Potioncat:
> c=rn? I'm missing something.

Kemper now:
A grade of 'c' in a nursing course will still get you the RN.

 
> > Kemper now:
> > Here are comparative links from the US Bureau of Labor and 
> > Statistics:
> > Electrician:
> > http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes472111.htm
> > Registered Nurse:
> > http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes291111.htm
> 
> Potioncat:
> And you trust the government?

Kemper now:
The government deceives us?  That's bananas.  Well, if they do, I hope
at least that there are some corporations who are benefiting from such
deceptions.

> Potioncat:
> Hmm, that's very interesting, and not at all what I've heard. Maybe 
> I should stop giving career advice to my son!  
> Maybe I should show this report to my employer!

Kemper now:
I work in the employment field and give advice as needed/wanted.
For more specifics for your area, you can look at your state's
employment dept site (usually not the most easily navigated) and
search for a link for stats and what not.  If you're interested but
having difficulty, I can prolly help out but would need to know which
state.

> Potioncat:
> I wonder how much the general numbers are skewed by salaries for 
> nurses who have specialty training in critical ares who work night 
> shifts; or by nurse practitioners who function as providers.
> 
> What I noticed right off is that the highest paid nurses work for 
> the motion picture industry.  
> What the heck do they do to get "that" much of an increase?
> 
> Well, my bags are packed and I'm off to find out.

Kemper now:
I'm not one to tear down rainbows, but the motion picture industry
employed 30 nurses out of nearly 2.5 million... that said I don't
think those particular salaries would've skewed the mean (average) as
they represent approx .000012% of the nursing population.  I also
think (though am not sure) that a Nurse Practitioner would be more
similar to a Physician Assistant whose income/education seems
comparable with NPs.
http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes291071.htm

Kemper




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Tue May 20 16:40:34 2008
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 16:40:34 -0000
Subject: UK School vs Generic USA School ... (...Re: Question for British ...)
In-Reply-To: <g0ushg+n7nb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0uuu2+p8iq@eGroups.com>

 
> Carol responds:

>Carol: 
> Kids who take AP classes these days (I'm basing my conclusions on my
> niece, who was the valedictorian of her high school class) have 
(IMO)
> and inflated grade average because instead of an A being 5.0 instead
> of 4.0. So a kid who gets straight A's but doesn't take AP classes
> will have a 4.0 average and a kid who gets straight A's taking AP
> classes will have a 5.0.

Potioncat:
Not all school system follows the same grading scale either. In our 
county, an A is 94-100. Othere areas use 10 points for each grade.I 
guess that's why colleges put so much weight on the SATs and ACTs. At 
least that test is looking at the same material at the same time with 
the same scale.

SATs and ACTs not being good if you happen to bright, but choke at 
tests.

AP courses are supposed to be a higher level. There are standardized 
tests afterwards. Some universities will accept a certain grade as a 
college credit class. But I'm not sure if it replaces that same 
course, or counts as an elective. 

Our area is determined that every kid can and will go to college. I 
think it's unfair but there are no options for science and math other 
than the higher levels. The highly motivated college oriented kids 
take even higher level or AP courses, and, like you say Carol, their 
grades are given more weight.

There are some trade courses offered in our school system, but they 
are treated like one of Dumbledore's secrets.


> 
> Carol, sorry to sound like a female curmudgeon but thinking that 
some
> things were better in the old days

Potioncat:
What the Dickens! you're right. They were better! They were also 
worse. 


> bboyminn:
> 
> Using Harry Potter as a model, students in the UK get one more
> month of education per year than students in the USA. The
> typical USA school year is 9 months with June, July, and August
> being the summer holiday. In the UK, using HP as a model,
> the summer holiday is July and August.

Potioncat:
I think that depends on the part of the country. In SC they get out 
sometime in May and return in August. In Virginia my kids get out mid 
or late June and return in September. This year there will be 10 
weeks of summer vacation. We had a week for Winter break and a week 
for Spring break.

Is it standard in the US that schools have 180 days of instruction? 
We have "snow days" built into our schedule, with a plan for which 
holidays will be dropped if we have too many days off due to snow.

I used to suggest that our kids start school in SC in August, then 
move back to Virginia at Christmas, in time to finish school in June. 
For some reason, they caught on.

Potioncat, who complains about our educational system a lot, but I 
think the majority of our teachers work hard and care about their 
students. 






From kempermentor at yahoo.com  Tue May 20 17:26:06 2008
From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kempermentor)
Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 17:26:06 -0000
Subject: salaries
In-Reply-To: <g0utrb+5pq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0v1je+dikv@eGroups.com>


> me earlier:
> ...  I also
> think (though am not sure) that a Nurse Practitioner would be more
> similar to a Physician Assistant whose income/education seems
> comparable with NPs.
> http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes291071.htm

me now:
This may be a better link for NPs.
http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes291199.htm

Kemper




From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Tue May 20 18:36:20 2008
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 18:36:20 -0000
Subject: UK School vs Generic USA School ... (...Re: Question for British ...)
In-Reply-To: <g0ushg+n7nb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0v5n4+r48e@eGroups.com>

---  "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:
>
> bboyminn wrote:
> <snip>
> > A parallel path to that would be either a state four year 
> college or university, with state colleges being more minor 
> institutions of higher learning and therefore cheaper, and 
> state university meaning THE State University, which is a 
> larger, more prominent, prestigious, and expensive school, 
> or a private college or university. Private colleges and 
> universities are usually considered the best and the most
> expensive. <snip>
> 
> Carol responds:
> I don't know about other states, but Arizona has three state
> universities (Arizona State University, the University of 
> Arizona, and Northern Arizona University) and New Mexico has 
> two (New Mexico State University and the University of New 
> Mexico).

bboyminn:

I'm not sure if Minnesota is odd or typical, but we have 
several state colleges/universities and one University of
Minnesota with several campuses.

As an example the college I went to was Mankato State University.
The school was originally 'Mankato State Teachers College', then
transformed into Mankato State College, then Mankato State
University, and is now Minnesota State University - Mankato. But
it is now and always has been a 'state' university, and NOT
the university of the state.

Other 'state' universities include Bemiji State (in the north),
Minnesota State-Moorhead (in the west), St. Cloud State (just
west of Minneapolis), Southwest Minnesota State (in the South
west), Minnesota State-Mankato (in the south), Winona State
(in the south east), and Metropolitan State with two campuses
in the Twin Cities (one in each). Note it is more prestigious
to have 'Minnesota' in the name of your school, so 'Minnesota
State-Mankato' is better than 'St. Cloud State' or 'Bemiji
State'.

On the other hand THE state university (University of 
Minnesota) is located in the Twin Cities with the main campus 
in Minneapolis and the primarily agricultural and food science
school in St. Paul. Additional campuses are found in Duluth, 
Morris, Crookston, and Rochester with the addition of a couple
other specialized extension campuses in a other locations.

This is the best university in Minnesota to graduate from,
the hardest to get into, and the most expensive. In addition
to the standard academic subjects, they also have medical,
dental, mortuary science, and law school as well as the 
University of Minnesota Hospital.

> 
> Steve:
> > Now days modern USA high schools have AP or Advanced 
> > Placement classes where high school level students can go 
> > to the local college as part of their high school education.
> > ...
> 
> Carol responds:
> The only AP classes I'm familiar with (..) are the AP
> English classes, which do not substitute for freshman composition
> although many students who took AP English end up in English 103,
> which is the Honors equivalent of English 101. ...
> 

bboyminn;

Sorry, I was wrong about that, but you have to understand that
my own high school and college career would be classified as
ancient history today.

The thing I was referring to is apparently called 'PSEO' or
'Post-Secondary Enrollment Options Program' in which 'high 
school juniors and seniors to enroll in college courses. 
Students may enroll for one or more classes, but total 
enrollment in high school and college may only be up to full-
time. Credits earned will apply toward high school credits and
class standing and toward graduation. Tuition, fees and 
required textbooks are provided at no cost to the student. 
College credits will transfer to all but a few selective 
colleges.'

> Carol:
>
> ... Nowadays, who knows? I'm glad I'm not a kid--or the parent
> of a teenager facing today's tuition costs combined with 
> inflation and what looks like a recession.
> 
> Carol, ...

bboyminn:

This is one of the things that makes college classes while in
high school so appealing to students; the state picks up the
tab for everything except books and supplies.

I don't know about other parts of the country but college 
tuition has been rising astronomically faster than the rate
of inflation. In my opinion, at an unconscionable rate. 

Just clearing a few things up.

steve/bluewizard




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Tue May 20 21:06:09 2008
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 21:06:09 -0000
Subject: Stonewall High (was RE: Question for British list members (school years))
In-Reply-To: <g0uqfj+kc7b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0veg1+hdb6@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:

Geoff (earlier):
> > A UK joke is that Public schools are not public in its normal
> sense. They are fee-paying, private schools sometimes with `
> background of having been established by philanthropists or charitable
> bodies. Some have entrance exams which can award scholarships so that
> clever children from poorer backgrounds can gain access. They include
> schools such as Harrow, Eton and Rugby. There are also a fair number
> of private schools established independently in more recent years.

> Carol:
> So, essentially, you have only the same three public schools that
> existed in the early nineteenth century? (Byron attended Harrow and
> Shelley, Eton.) Do they admit girls now and are they still as
> prestigious as they once were? 

Geoff:
Oh dear, it seems that every time I try to clarify a point, it is 
misunderstood.
:-(

I wrote "They /include/ schools such as Harrow, Eton and 
Rugby." If I may quote from the Public Schools Guide:

"A public school, in common English and Welsh usage, is 
a (usually) prestigious school, for children usually between 
the ages of 11 or 13 and 18, which charges fees and is not 
financed by the state.

It is traditionally a single-sex boarding school, although 
many now accept day pupils and are coeducational. The 
majority date back to the 18th or 19th centuries, and 
several are over 400 years old."

The oldest public school I believe is Westminster, which 
was founded as early as 1179, while the three I mentioned 
above were founded in, respectively, 1572, 1440 and 1567. 
The list of public schools and independent schools is very 
long - possibly a couple of hundred- - but I repeat what I 
said earlier that they make up only a very small part of the 
UK school system.

Geoff (earlier):
> > As I described, prior to the 1960s Labour government initiatives,
> all children in state schools took the "11+" exam. If you were
> successful, you could go to a grammar school which would have a Sixth
> Form and would also put pupils through the Matric exams - GCE after
> 1951. <snip>
> 
> Carol:
> Is "grammar school" equivalent to public school? I know that in
> Shelley's day, they didn't teach *English* grammar at all. the boys
> were expected to know Latin already, and, IIRC, they began learning
> Greek on entering Eton. What else they studied, I don't recall. I'm
> sure that the modern curriculum is very different. 

Geoff:
No. A grammar school was a school which taught more subjects to 
pupils who had shown themselves to be competent enough to take 
the extra subjects. (I will refrain from saying cleverer because that 
might give the wrong impression cos I went to a grammar school!). 
They would teach to the Matric level (or GCE post-1951) and included 
languages in their curriculum.

Geoff (earlier):
> > The comprehensive school brought all children under one roof. They 
> were bigger and therefore had more facilities to deal with a wide
> range or educational needs and aspirations. <snip>
> 
> Carol responds:
> So they're "comprehensive" in that they take students of all ages, say
> five through eighteen, and all abilities (no entrance exam), with
> preparation for university-bound students along with vocational
> training for those who want a job straight out of school? If all state
> schools are comprehensive, where do the secondary schools fit in? Are
> they on the same grounds as the primary and elementary schools (if I
> have the terms right--I don't dare go upthread with a feeble modem
> that could go out at any moment) but in a separate building?

Geoff:
No. 

I thought I had made it clear that the comprehensive schools were 
intended to remove the selection - and possible stigma - attached to 
the "11+" exam which had to be passed to gain entry to a grammar (or 
technical) school. Hence, the word only applies to schools operating 
from either our Year 7 or 8 or 9 (dependant on transfer age) through 
to the Upper Sixth.

So the current set up is, in a traditional system:
First/Infant school Years 1-2
Junior school Years 3-6 These two are often combined or share a site
Secondary/High/Community College (comprehensive) Years 7-11 + Sixth

or a three-tier Middle school system
Primary/First school Years 1-4
Middle school Years 5-8
Secondary/High/Community College (comprehensive) Years 9-11 + Sixth

Just to be confusing  (I have a degree in that!!), some LEAs operate a Middle School system 
where the transfer age bands are Years 1-3/4-7/8+

I've taught in all three formats without changing school.

Some secondary schools may share a site with younger groups but will 
have separate buildings.






From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue May 20 22:07:58 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 22:07:58 -0000
Subject: Stonewall High (was RE: Question for British list members (school years))
In-Reply-To: <g0veg1+hdb6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0vi3u+quls@eGroups.com>

Geoff:
> No. 
> 
> I thought I had made it clear that the comprehensive schools were
intended to remove the selection - and possible stigma - attached to
the "11+" exam which had to be passed to gain entry to a grammar (or
technical) school. Hence, the word only applies to schools operating
from either our Year 7 or 8 or 9 (dependant on transfer age) through 
to the Upper Sixth. <snip>

Carol responds:
So comprehensive schools are free, state-run secondary schools that
require no entrance examination and are open to anyone in the correct
age range? And do they offer both university-prep courses and
vocational training?

Carol, hoping that her new modem will help her to think straight!






From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Tue May 20 22:30:38 2008
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 22:30:38 -0000
Subject: Stonewall High (was RE: Question for British list members (school years))
In-Reply-To: <g0vi3u+quls@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0vjee+icsn@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:
>
> Geoff:
> > No. 
> > 
> > I thought I had made it clear that the comprehensive schools were
> intended to remove the selection - and possible stigma - attached to
> the "11+" exam which had to be passed to gain entry to a grammar (or
> technical) school. Hence, the word only applies to schools operating
> from either our Year 7 or 8 or 9 (dependant on transfer age) through 
> to the Upper Sixth. <snip>
> 
> Carol responds:
> So comprehensive schools are free, state-run secondary schools that
> require no entrance examination and are open to anyone in the correct
> age range? And do they offer both university-prep courses and
> vocational training?
> 
> Carol, hoping that her new modem will help her to think straight!

Geoff:
Yes.






From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed May 21 00:12:43 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 00:12:43 -0000
Subject: Stonewall High (was RE: Question for British list members (school years))
In-Reply-To: <g0vjee+icsn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g0vpdr+iqi6@eGroups.com>

Carol earlier:
> > So comprehensive schools are free, state-run secondary schools
that require no entrance examination and are open to anyone in the
correct age range? And do they offer both university-prep courses and
vocational training?

> Geoff:
> Yes.
>
Carol responds:
Hurray!

Carol, who can just hear Geoff singing "By George, she's got it!"
under his breath




From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Wed May 21 00:18:12 2008
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 00:18:12 -0000
Subject: The Squirrel Factor I, II, III - Just for Fun
Message-ID: <g0vpo4+o5uv@eGroups.com>

Well, I don't know if any one is interested but I found a 
series of three videos made by University of Minnesota Film
School students. They're kind of long, but well done and funny.
Though, the language can get a bit salty in places, but not to
excess.

They are filmed on the University of Minnesota campus in 
Minneapolis, so if nothing else you can see a few shots of
the campus.

At one point they mention a building called 'Northrup', that is
an performance auditorium on campus.

The Squirrel Factor -

http://www.thesquirrelfactor.com/

"The Squirrel Factor III won the Audience Favorite and Judge's
Favorite at this year's Student Film Festival."

In a vague and indirect way, the story is a take off (or send
up) of the Matrix movies with a bit of Star Wars and some
general non-sense thrown in. Really, it's funny.

Just for laughs.

Steve/bboyminn




From n2fgc at arrl.net  Wed May 21 04:59:29 2008
From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Lee Storm(God Is The Healing Force))
Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 00:59:29 -0400
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Stonewall High (was RE: Question for British
 list members (school years))
In-Reply-To: <g0r77f+4rf3@eGroups.com>
References: <001401c8b964$7506b0a0$67a4a8c0@FRODO> <g0r77f+4rf3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <B3BBBA47A1134049AAB9C0F503B0162B@FRODO>

Okay, I took a while to read this message because of computer problems to
annoying to relate.

[I asked]:
| > If, at the age of 11, kids in the UK are going into the 6th 
| grade, how can
| > Harry be going to Stonewall High?  Does High School start 
| at 6th grade?

[Geoff responded]:
| No. Pupils in the UK will reach 11 while they are in Year 6.
| 
| Harry is eleven on 31/07/91. Since his birthday is before the 
| cutoff date of 
| 31/08/91, he is i the "11+" category by 01/09/91 so is 
| eligible to go into 
| the First Year at both Stonewall and Hogwarts. In modern 
| terms, that is 


[Lee]:
Okay, I understand that, but the school is called "Stonewall High" which, to
this American mind, says "High School."  So is it a misnomer?  What is my
fried brain missing here?

Cheers,
Lee (Who can see she's got a pile of messages to read!)




From n2fgc at arrl.net  Wed May 21 05:24:18 2008
From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Lee Storm(God Is The Healing Force))
Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 01:24:18 -0400
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Question for British list members/PS for
 Goddlefrood
In-Reply-To: <g0t5dd+b0ns@eGroups.com>
References: <g0o92v+ltdi@eGroups.com> <g0t5dd+b0ns@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <51029CC746284166A62F49E85C64FEF2@FRODO>

Hi,

Ya know, it's interesting about the half-day stuff.  I never had that!

I went to a Parochial School for the blind and started Kindergarten when I
was 4 in 1963 and turned 5 in April of 1964, which means I started First
Grade in September of 1964.  End result, I graduated High School in 1976 at
16.  But we never had half-days.  Probably would have shaken up the
school-bussing system. <Smile>

Cheers,

Lee :-)




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Wed May 21 06:37:34 2008
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 06:37:34 -0000
Subject: Stonewall High (was RE: Question for British list members (school years))
In-Reply-To: <B3BBBA47A1134049AAB9C0F503B0162B@FRODO>
Message-ID: <g10fve+2en1@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Lee Storm(God Is The Healing Force)" 
<n2fgc at ...> wrote:
 
> [I asked]:
> | > If, at the age of 11, kids in the UK are going into the 6th 
> | grade, how can
> | > Harry be going to Stonewall High?  Does High School start 
> | at 6th grade?
> 
> [Geoff responded]:
> | No. Pupils in the UK will reach 11 while they are in Year 6.
> | 
> | Harry is eleven on 31/07/91. Since his birthday is before the 
> | cutoff date of 
> | 31/08/91, he is i the "11+" category by 01/09/91 so is 
> | eligible to go into 
> | the First Year at both Stonewall and Hogwarts. In modern 
> | terms, that is 
> 
> 
> [Lee]:
> Okay, I understand that, but the school is called "Stonewall High" which, to
> this American mind, says "High School."  So is it a misnomer?  What is my
> fried brain missing here?

Geoff:
If I might just repeat a sentence from my post 36661:

"I thought I had made it clear that the comprehensive schools were
intended to remove the selection - and possible stigma - attached to
the "11+" exam which had to be passed to gain entry to a grammar (or
technical) school. Hence, the word only applies to schools operating
from either our Year 7 or 8 or 9 (dependant on transfer age) through
to the Upper Sixth."

As I described previously, after the wide-scale introduction of 
comprehensive schools in the UK, secondary schools can be 
variously titled "High", "Secondary" or "Community College" depending 
on what grabs the LEA as a suitable title.

Just as an aside to Carol's last tag line, I'm glad to say that I recognise 
the lyrics from "My Fair Lady" and might indeed give voice to them in the 
bathroom today. That will send the neighbours running for the hills.
:-|






From n2fgc at arrl.net  Wed May 21 19:02:54 2008
From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Lee Storm(God Is The Healing Force))
Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 15:02:54 -0400
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Question for British list members (school
 years)
In-Reply-To: <g0o7rb+74i0@eGroups.com>
References: <g0o03k+2tgt@eGroups.com> <g0o7rb+74i0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <A25B627B001F403082FB92B4848CABF2@FRODO>

| Potioncat:
| The cut-off dates vary across the US. I turned 18 before 
| graduating, as 
| have both my older two. It's also become common for parents to delay 
| the start of school if they feel their child isn't ready. 

[Lee]:
And there are those who've been left back and had to repeat years, too.
That would increase the grad age.

Lee :-)




From n2fgc at arrl.net  Wed May 21 19:30:53 2008
From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Lee Storm(God Is The Healing Force))
Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 15:30:53 -0400
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Children's books (was Inside, Outside,
 Near Lane, Far Lane, whatever...)
In-Reply-To: <g0qf4r+c8lp@eGroups.com>
References: <000001c8b902$de682720$67a4a8c0@FRODO> <g0qf4r+c8lp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <F751CA28309643B89C06F200CEEF8690@FRODO>

| Goddlefrood:
| 
| A torch makes perfect sense to me. Flashlights don't flash, now do 
| they?

[Lee]:
Uh--some do. :-) Some have dual settings which allow a flashing red or white
light as well as the standard constant light.

Cheers,

Lee :-)

Do not walk behind me,    | Lee Storm
I may not care to lead;   | N2FGC
Do not walk before me,    | n2fgc at arrl.net (or)
I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at optonline.net
Walk beside me, and be my friend.




From catlady at wicca.net  Thu May 22 02:47:42 2008
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Thu, 22 May 2008 02:47:42 -0000
Subject: school stuff
Message-ID: <g12mse+dd7f@eGroups.com>

Potioncat wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/36639>:

<< She knew enough about Salem Witch Trails to put the American School
of Witchcraft there. (Don't remembe what she named it.) >>

You're thinking of the Salem Witches' Institute. I am sure that is not
a school of witchcraft, because it is named after the Women's
Institute <http://www.womens-institute.co.uk/> which is a social and
educational club for (at least from old novels) rural housewives.  

Carol wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/36656>:

<< have (IMO) and inflated grade average because of an A being 5.0
instead of 4.0. So a kid who gets straight A's but doesn't take AP
classes will have a 4.0 average and a kid who gets straight A's taking
AP classes will have a 5.0. >>

In my day (my high school graduating class was 1974), an A was worth
4.0 whether it was in AP Calculus or Remedial Arithmetic. Not that I
was in the habit of getting A's, but I always thought I could have
gotten A's if I'd taken the easier classes...





From willsonkmom at msn.com  Thu May 22 11:42:52 2008
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Thu, 22 May 2008 11:42:52 -0000
Subject: school stuff
In-Reply-To: <g12mse+dd7f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g13m7s+a94l@eGroups.com>

Catlady: 
> You're thinking of the Salem Witches' Institute. I am sure that is not
> a school of witchcraft, because it is named after the Women's
> Institute <http://www.womens-institute.co.uk/> which is a social and
> educational club for (at least from old novels) rural housewives.  


Potioncat:
Oh, is that what all the women were attending in "Calendar Girls"? So, 
you think JKR sort of assumed American ladies would have the same 
organization? Not trusting my memory, I made sure they were American--
they are, right down to their spangled banner. Although I've never 
heard of "spangled" without "star". I think you're right, though. The 
description sounds like a woman's club event. 

OK, but at least she knew Salem would have witches.





From s_ings at yahoo.com  Thu May 22 14:45:12 2008
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Thu, 22 May 2008 10:45:12 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Question for British list members/PS for Goddlefrood
In-Reply-To: <g0t5dd+b0ns@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <316562.98128.qm@web63408.mail.re1.yahoo.com>


--- Mike <mcrudele78 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> > Carol responds:
> > <snip>
> > 
> > In the U.S., they enter kindergarten (half-days of
> school) at age 
> > five and first grade at age six. 
> 
> Mike:
> The Charter school I worked for runs things a little
> differently. 
> They call Kindergarten through 2nd grade their
> "Primary School" 
> kids and they all (Kindergarten too) have shortened
> but full school 
> days. They get out at 3:15 pm at this school.
> 
> Grades 3 through 5 were called "Elementary School"
> and Grades 6, 7, 
> and 8 were called the "Junior Academy". That's as
> high as the school 
> went. All of these grades got out at 4:00 pm at this
> school.
> 
> Obviously, Junior Academy corresponds to what is now
> called "Middle 
> School" in most public school systems nowadays. In
> my day, we called 
> it Junior High and it was made up of 7th, 8th, & 9th
> graders. We 
> didn't go to High School until the 10th grade. But I
> know other 
> school systems even in our day had 9th graders in
> High School.
> 
> I lived in Michigan and "in my day" means the
> beginning of the 70s, I 
> graduated in '74. I'm curious, for anybody else
> around my timeframe 
> but in different states, when did you start High
> School?
> 
Sheryll:

Okay, not in a different state but a different country
altogether. But responding anyway, even if I am a few
days late. :)

Kindergarten here in Ontario is sometimes full days,
though alternate days. That's for those who attend
schools out in the country. Cuts down on the cost of
running buses so many times a day. I remember well
having to wake my nephew up a few times to take him
off the bus. Don't know if any of the schools still
have pre-K, but it did exist for a while for the 4
year olds. 

Intermediate or middle school is grades 7 & 8 and high
school starts with the 9th grade and runs to 12th
grade. Up until a few years ago high school here ran
until grade 13. In fact, my daughter was in the double
graduating year, which made things very difficult for
those trying to get into universities and colleges. In
fact, she ended up taking a year off after high school
and then applying for university. 

Quebec is an entity all it's own. Not sure how it is
now, but when I was in high school there it only went
to grade 11. After that you headed off to CEGEP.
Really messed me up doing my grade 10 there and then
moving to Ontario. For example, grade 10 and 11
chemistry class used the same textbook, doing half
grade 10 and the other half in grade 11. When I moved
to Ontario I found out the same text book was used for
grade 13 chemistry. All too confusing. *sigh*

Sheryll

Join the fun at Convention Alley 2008



      __________________________________________________________________
Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers and share what you know at http://ca.answers.yahoo.com



From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Thu May 22 16:42:16 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Thu, 22 May 2008 16:42:16 -0000
Subject: Question for British list members/PS for Goddlefrood
In-Reply-To: <316562.98128.qm@web63408.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <g147p8+kbhm@eGroups.com>

Sheryll wrote:

> Quebec is an entity all it's own. Not sure how it is now, but when I
was in high school there it only went to grade 11. After that you
headed off to CEGEP. <snip>

Carol responds:

CEGEP? Isn't that where De Nial is? (Sorry. Very bad joke.) Seriously,
what is CEGEP?

Also, it sounds as if the age levels in Canada correspond with those
in the U.S. (kindergarten at age five, with many or most kids turning
six before the end of the school year), so grade thirteen would be
eighteen-year-olds, with most turning nineteen by the end of the year?

And wouldn't most schools in Quebec use French as the primary
language, or are they all bilingual?

Carol, enjoying a respite from the heat and hoping for rain today or
tomorrow





From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Thu May 22 17:53:46 2008
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Thu, 22 May 2008 17:53:46 -0000
Subject: Children's books - Flashlights
In-Reply-To: <F751CA28309643B89C06F200CEEF8690@FRODO>
Message-ID: <g14bva+re4c@eGroups.com>

---  "Lee Storm(God Is The Healing Force)" <n2fgc at ...> wrote:
>
> | Goddlefrood:
> | 
> | A torch makes perfect sense to me. Flashlights don't flash,
> | now do they?
> 
> [Lee]:
> Uh--some do. :-) Some have dual settings which allow a 
> flashing red or white light as well as the standard constant
>  light.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Lee :-)

bboyminn:

Actually, back in the good old days, back in the heyday of
'flashlights', nearly all flashlights has dual controls. In
the switch area were two switches. One was a push button to
make the light flash, so boy scouts could send Morse code, and
the other, a standard slide on-off switch. 

Apparently the 'flash' aspect fell from grace or became too 
expensive in the modern days of Walmart-cheap. But 'back in the 
day' no self-respecting person would have bought a Flashlight
that didn't flash. 

In the UK, I suspect the term 'Torch' was carried over from
coal miners who wore flame or arch lights on their helmets.
So, they were using 'torch' lights in the sense that there
really was a flame burning. As those lights were converted to
electricity, the 'torch' terminology just carried through.

Further, I suspect before the implementation of electricity
as common, even small hand-held lights has some type of flame
burning in them, so the concept of torch again carried 
through. 

Still, to my knowledge, in the USA, a 'torch' has never been
more than a flaming stick. Any other type of light was likely
to be called a lantern, lamp, or something similar. So, I 
suspect 'torch' in a broader context was never common in the 
USA.

Blah...blah..blah...etc...

steve/bboyminn




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Thu May 22 19:58:30 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Thu, 22 May 2008 19:58:30 -0000
Subject: The Lightning-Struck Tower
Message-ID: <g14j96+tfu4@eGroups.com>

I was checking some of the 9/11 accounts in the manuscript I'm editing
against the originals on the Internet and came across this image of
the Lightning-Struck Tower from a deck of Tarot cards:

http://67.19.222.106/rumors/images/tower.jpg

BTW, I wonder why Trelawney uses playing cards in HBP chapter 10 ("The
House of Gaunt") but apparently changes to Tarot cards in chapter 26
("The Seer Overheard").

Carol, enjoying the smell of rain after several centuries, erm, months
without it




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Fri May 23 12:56:55 2008
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Fri, 23 May 2008 12:56:55 -0000
Subject: Spin-Offs
Message-ID: <g16eun+vu32@eGroups.com>

SSSusan started a thread about the HP series over at the main list. Her 
questions, and the answers, made me wonder. Has the Harry Potter 
experience introduced something new for any of you? Is there some 
activity or passtime you developed or rekindled because of HP?

In my house it was theatre. My youngest was just showing an interest in 
movies and plays when CoS-The Movie came out. So I rented "Henry V"(I 
think it was V) to see "Lockhart" in a different light. And we 
watched "Galaxy Quest" again because we just couldn't believe "Snape" 
had been that movie. Then we had to seek out a very old "Romeo and 
Juliet" to see "Snape" in that. Very soon my son knew actors by their 
own names. He was attending drama camps and did a portion of Hamlet's 
soliloquy. OK, so he only made it as an Oompa Loompa in the Middle 
School play, but he's on his way! His interest before movies was 
pirates. I'm so happy he's thinking of acting rather than piracy as a 
career.

For me it HP rekindled a love of writing. I've even attended a couple 
of community classes and written some fan-fic. It'll always just be a 
passtime for me, but it's something I'd almost forgotten I'd enjoyed 
doing.

Potioncat




From s_ings at yahoo.com  Fri May 23 22:44:46 2008
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Fri, 23 May 2008 22:44:46 -0000
Subject: Another Keynote Presenter Joins Convention Alley 2008!
Message-ID: <g17hcu+3q6n@eGroups.com>

Convention Alley is pleased to announce the addition of another 
Keynote presenter!

Travis Prinzi will be adding two presentations to our line-up, 
bringing our total of keynote presentations up to 5. Mr. Prinzi has 
an M.A. in Theological Studies and is currently working on his 
M.S.Ed. in Secondary English Education. He presented at Prophecy last 
summer and will be speaking at Portus later this summer. He's also 
working on a book and is excited to be joining the world of published 
Harry Potter analysis. We're very pleased to be able to add Travis to 
growing schedule of events!

The first presentation will be:

"Quills, Queries, and Quests: Literacy Learning in the Wizarding 
World"

When the term "literacy" is used in popular discourse, it most 
frequently refers simply to "the ability to read and write," and in 
education, it follows that becoming "literate" involves a process of 
rote repetition in order to get down basic "facts" and "skills" in 
order to become "literate."  Literacy, however, is far more complex 
than that simple definition, and more than that, all constructions of 
literacy are inherently political.  This presentation examines 
literacy in the Harry Potter series.  Defining literacy as "changing 
participation" in a sociocultural setting, we will examine Harry and 
Muggleborns as outsiders to the dominant discourse; the way education 
is framed by Hogwarts teachers; the "Ministry-approved, theory-
centered" curriculum of Delores Umbridge; the student subversion in 
the form of Dumbledore's Army; and finally, Albus Dumbledore's 
lessons with Harry as an example of an Apprenticeship model of 
literacy learning.

A second presentation is currently being determined.

All keynote presentations and meals are included in when you register 
for Convention Alley 2008. To register, visit our website: 
http://www.conventionalley2008.org/

Sheryll Townsend
For the Convention Alley 2008 Planning Committee





From s_ings at yahoo.com  Fri May 23 23:05:18 2008
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Fri, 23 May 2008 19:05:18 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] CEGEP (was: Re: Question for British list members/PS for Goddlefrood)
In-Reply-To: <g147p8+kbhm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <909122.37106.qm@web63407.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

> Sheryll wrote:
> 
> > Quebec is an entity all it's own. Not sure how it
> is now, but when I
> was in high school there it only went to grade 11.
> After that you
> headed off to CEGEP. <snip>
> 
> Carol responds:
> 
> CEGEP? Isn't that where De Nial is? (Sorry. Very bad
> joke.) Seriously,
> what is CEGEP?
> 
Sheryll:

Best explanation of CEGEP comes from the Statistics
Canada website
(http://www.statcan.ca/english/freepub/81-004-XIE/def/cegepdef.htm):

The postsecondary system in Quebec is unique in that
the colleges (CEGEPs) provide a program that is a
requirement for entry to university. Students who
complete high school (normally after 11 years of
schooling) must complete two years of the "general
program" of the colleges (as opposed to the
"vocational" programs) and they then proceed to
university for completion of their program, which
normally takes three years for a pass bachelor's
degree in arts or science. 

Carol:
> Also, it sounds as if the age levels in Canada
> correspond with those
> in the U.S. (kindergarten at age five, with many or
> most kids turning
> six before the end of the school year), so grade
> thirteen would be
> eighteen-year-olds, with most turning nineteen by
> the end of the year?
> 
Sheryll:

Exactly right. Grade 13 was always optional. I didn't
do it. Mostly because of the mix-ups caused by coming
from Quebec to Ontario in the middle of high school. 

Because Quebec high school was shorter I was given the
option of getting double credits for each of the
classes I took there that used the same texts as grade
13 Ontario courses. I opted for the double credits. In
those days you had to have X number of credits to
graduate, generally with 1 credit per course. 

I sucked at math, so couldn't opt for any of those for
grade 13. I'd finished everything available in the
sciences (chemistry and biology, the latter being the
course I got double credit for) and had taken grade 13
sociology to get enough credits for grade 12. :) There
just weren't enough options left for me to get enough
credits for grade 13, so I decided to take the grade
12 graduation. I hadn't been planning on attending
university, so grade 13 wasn't a recommended course of
action. It was until I was in my 20s that I decided to
go back to school. :)

Carol:

> And wouldn't most schools in Quebec use French as
> the primary
> language, or are they all bilingual?
> 
Sheryll:

Interesting question. Not sure how it is now, but
there were definitely places where you could get your
education completely in English back then. Not as much
now. I know both English schools where I was living
are now closed and have been for decades. But, yes,
most Quebec schools use French as their primary, and
often only, language. Not sure on how many bilingual
schools there were, or are now. 

I attended a bilingual school in Ontario for my grade
12. Yes, I went to 3 different high schools. The joys
of being an Air Force brat! I think I attended 7
different schools altogether over the course of my
education. Eight if you count college. :) My last high
school was in a predominently French speaking rural
area. About 2/3 - 3/4 of the students took their
courses in French, the rest of us in English. 

> Carol, enjoying a respite from the heat and hoping
> for rain today or
> tomorrow

Sheryll:

I'll gladly trade weather. It's been cold, damp and
gloomy here. I shouldn't still be wearing flannel
pyjamas at the end of May!

Sheryll

Join the fun at Convention Alley 2008



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From lilandriss at yahoo.com  Sat May 24 04:39:03 2008
From: lilandriss at yahoo.com (Alanna)
Date: Sat, 24 May 2008 00:39:03 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Spin-Offs
In-Reply-To: <g16eun+vu32@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <511900.88190.qm@web53403.mail.re2.yahoo.com>



potioncat <willsonkmom at msn.com> wrote:                             
 
((In my house it was theatre. My youngest was just showing an interest in 
 movies and plays when CoS-The Movie came out. So I rented "Henry V"(I 
 think it was V) to see "Lockhart" in a different light. And we 
 watched "Galaxy Quest" again because we just couldn't believe "Snape" 
 had been that movie.))
 
   OMG!! That was *him??* Every time I've watched that movie, I couldn't place who the hell that guy was! Thank you for making the conection! *G* Have you seen him in Sweeny Todd? 
   
 
   
                                
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From willsonkmom at msn.com  Sat May 24 11:27:23 2008
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Sat, 24 May 2008 11:27:23 -0000
Subject: Spin-Offs
In-Reply-To: <511900.88190.qm@web53403.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <g18u2r+64pu@eGroups.com>

 Alanna >  
>    OMG!! That was *him??* Every time I've watched that movie, I 
couldn't place who the hell that guy was! Thank you for making the 
conection! *G* Have you seen him in Sweeny Todd? 

Potioncat:
No, that was Tim Allen. The other guy was him. ;-)

Yes, I saw Sweeny Todd. Yick. I had to preview it for my theatre-loving 
son. I gave in a bit, and showed a few scenes to him, but he didn't get 
to see the whole movie. Rickman of course was the perfect horrible 
person, in a story of many horrible persons.

But then, I've seen almost all Rickman's films.....another spin-off 
from HP.







From macloudt at yahoo.co.uk  Sat May 24 11:38:30 2008
From: macloudt at yahoo.co.uk (Mary Ann Jennings)
Date: Sat, 24 May 2008 11:38:30 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: CEGEP (was: Re: Question for British list members/PS for Goddlefrood
Message-ID: <935131.6113.qm@web25803.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

Carol:

> And wouldn't most schools in Quebec use French as
> the primary
> language, or are they all bilingual?
 

Sheryll:

>Interesting question. Not sure how it is now, but
>there were definitely places where you could get your
>education completely in English back then. Not as much
>now.

Mary Ann:

>From what I understand, in order for a child to attend an English-speaking school in Quebec both parents must have attended English-speaking schools in Quebec as well.  In 1976 (I think) Bill 101, one of the whopper French-language bills, came into being under the Parti Quebecois, the then-ruling provincial government party.  I had started English elementary school just a few years earlier, so I was OK.  I was born in Quebec but my parents immigrated from the Netherlands, so I'm not sure if I would have had to attend a French school had I been born a few years later.

Mary Ann, taking a break from spring cleaning the house



From bumbledor at comcast.net  Sat May 24 13:29:16 2008
From: bumbledor at comcast.net (bumbledor)
Date: Sat, 24 May 2008 09:29:16 -0400
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Spin-Offs
References: <511900.88190.qm@web53403.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <006401c8bda2$2a400750$6401a8c0@bumbledor>


From: "Alanna" <lilandriss at yahoo.com>

>
>
> potioncat <willsonkmom at msn.com> wrote:
>
> ((In my house it was theatre. My youngest was just showing an interest in
> movies and plays when CoS-The Movie came out. So I rented "Henry V"(I
> think it was V) to see "Lockhart" in a different light. And we
> watched "Galaxy Quest" again because we just couldn't believe "Snape"
> had been that movie.))
>
>   OMG!! That was *him??* Every time I've watched that movie, I couldn't 
> place who the hell that guy was! Thank you for making the conection! *G* 
> Have you seen him in Sweeny Todd?
>

Don't forget, Alan Rickman was also in Quiggly Down Under. And yes, he was 
in galaxy quest. I bet that will be one of those movies he wished he had 
never done, but did it to pay the rent that month! LOL.





From kempermentor at yahoo.com  Sat May 24 15:34:52 2008
From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kempermentor)
Date: Sat, 24 May 2008 15:34:52 -0000
Subject: Spin-Offs
In-Reply-To: <006401c8bda2$2a400750$6401a8c0@bumbledor>
Message-ID: <g19cis+qr3c@eGroups.com>

> Someone wrote:
>...Alan Rickman was also in Quiggly Down Under. And yes, he was 
> in galaxy quest. I bet that will be one of those movies he wished he 
> had never done, but did it to pay the rent that month! LOL.

Kemper now:
Are you kidding?!
Galaxy Quest is awesome! 
I rewatch it every year for the past 8 years... and I still laugh.

It's perfect.
Kemper 




From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Sat May 24 19:05:57 2008
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Sat, 24 May 2008 19:05:57 -0000
Subject: Spin-Offs
In-Reply-To: <g19cis+qr3c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g19oul+aqpt@eGroups.com>

> > Someone wrote:
> >...Alan Rickman was also in Quiggly Down Under. And yes, he was 
> > in galaxy quest. I bet that will be one of those movies he wished 
he 
> > had never done, but did it to pay the rent that month! LOL.
> 
> Kemper now:
> Are you kidding?!
> Galaxy Quest is awesome! 
> I rewatch it every year for the past 8 years... and I still laugh.
> 
> It's perfect.

Magpie:
Yes, I'm shocked too-why would he ever regret doing such a great movie? 
I remember writing an essay about it after it came out. It's brilliant--
and the whole cast is great.

-m




From s_ings at yahoo.com  Sun May 25 13:30:21 2008
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Sun, 25 May 2008 09:30:21 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re:CEGEP (was: Re: Question for British list members/PS for Goddlefrood
In-Reply-To: <935131.6113.qm@web25803.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <468897.52424.qm@web63408.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

> Carol:
> 
> > And wouldn't most schools in Quebec use French as
> > the primary
> > language, or are they all bilingual?
>  
> 
> Sheryll:
> 
> >Interesting question. Not sure how it is now, but
> >there were definitely places where you could get
> your
> >education completely in English back then. Not as
> much
> >now.
> 
> Mary Ann:
> 
> From what I understand, in order for a child to
> attend an English-speaking school in Quebec both
> parents must have attended English-speaking schools
> in Quebec as well.  In 1976 (I think) Bill 101, one
> of the whopper French-language bills, came into
> being under the Parti Quebecois, the then-ruling
> provincial government party.  I had started English
> elementary school just a few years earlier, so I was
> OK.  I was born in Quebec but my parents immigrated
> from the Netherlands, so I'm not sure if I would
> have had to attend a French school had I been born a
> few years later.
> 
> Mary Ann, taking a break from spring cleaning the
> house

Sheryll:

I moved from Quebec to Ontario in 1975, so I'm not
sure. High school was off the military base we lived
on, so that would have been impacted by Bill 101. Not
sure if they could have actually closed down the
schools on the base, which were strictly English
language schools. Hmmm... wonder if base schools are
exempt from the Bill? 

Sheryll, showing her age and proud of it (though
thinking she's too old for the close/open shifts she
had this week!)

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From HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com  Sun May 25 17:40:24 2008
From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com (HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 25 May 2008 17:40:24 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 5/25/2008, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1211737224.11.97929.m57@yahoogroups.com>

Reminder from: HPFGU-OTChatter Yahoo! Group
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/cal

Weekly Chat
Sunday May 25, 2008
1:00 pm - 2:00 pm
(This event repeats every week.)
Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Notes:
Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour.

To get to the HPfGU room follow this link:
http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want
to be called.

Enter the password: hpfguchat

Click "Join Chat" on the lower right.

Chat start times:
11 am Pacific US
12 noon Mountain US
1 pm Central US
2 pm Eastern US
7 pm UK




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From catlady at wicca.net  Sun May 25 18:04:07 2008
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Sun, 25 May 2008 18:04:07 -0000
Subject: CEGEP (was: Re: Question for British/ CANADIAN/ list members
In-Reply-To: <468897.52424.qm@web63408.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <g1c9mn+f23o@eGroups.com>

Sheryll Townsend <s_ings at ...> wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/36687>:
> 
> I moved from Quebec to Ontario in 1975, so I'm not
> sure. High school was off the military base we lived
> on, so that would have been impacted by Bill 101. Not
> sure if they could have actually closed down the
> schools on the base, which were strictly English
> language schools. Hmmm... wonder if base schools are
> exempt from the Bill? 

I've always wondered how the Canadian military handles deux langues
officiel. Sounds like the base schools just ignored it. What do they
do about some recruits only speak French and some recruits only speak
English?





From s_ings at yahoo.com  Mon May 26 02:55:01 2008
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Sun, 25 May 2008 22:55:01 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re:CEGEP (was: Re: Question for British/ CANADIAN/ list members
In-Reply-To: <g1c9mn+f23o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <107917.98985.qm@web63405.mail.re1.yahoo.com>


> Sheryll Townsend <s_ings at ...> wrote in
>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/36687>:
> > 
> > I moved from Quebec to Ontario in 1975, so I'm not
> > sure. High school was off the military base we
> lived
> > on, so that would have been impacted by Bill 101.
> Not
> > sure if they could have actually closed down the
> > schools on the base, which were strictly English
> > language schools. Hmmm... wonder if base schools
> are
> > exempt from the Bill? 
> 
Catlady:
> I've always wondered how the Canadian military
> handles deux langues
> officiel. Sounds like the base schools just ignored
> it. What do they
> do about some recruits only speak French and some
> recruits only speak
> English?

Sheryll:

I'm pretty sure the military accommodates both
languages. I know that back in the 70s anyone who
spoke only English was obligated to take French
courses. Dad took his, though he came out of it with
appalling French and never really needed it on the
job. He was a weapons and tech guy for the Air Force. 

The only people I know in the military are all English
speaking. Dad is now retired, a cousin is out of the
Navy due to health concerns. I have 2 cousins
currently serving in the Army and, to my knowledge,
neither of them speaks a lick of French even though my
cousin Robin comes from Canada's only truly bilingual
province (New Brunswick).

Sheryll

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From s_ings at yahoo.com  Mon May 26 03:04:42 2008
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Sun, 25 May 2008 23:04:42 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Spin-Offs
In-Reply-To: <g19cis+qr3c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <830011.93382.qm@web63402.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

> > Someone wrote:
> >...Alan Rickman was also in Quiggly Down Under. And
> yes, he was 
> > in galaxy quest. I bet that will be one of those
> movies he wished he 
> > had never done, but did it to pay the rent that
> month! LOL.
> 
> Kemper now:
> Are you kidding?!
> Galaxy Quest is awesome! 
> I rewatch it every year for the past 8 years... and
> I still laugh.
> 
> It's perfect.
> Kemper 
> 
Sheryll:

I'm with Kemper on that one! We watch Galaxy Quest
often during the day at the video store, so I get to
see it a lot!

Now, if we're talking Rickman films, I've seen just
about everything. In fact, Amanda and I have an
International Alan Rickman Film Extravaganza every
time I visit her. This year we watched Snow Cake,
Search for John Gissing (lovely snark in that one) and
Help, I'm A Fish! We even had t-shirts made a couple
years back and sent one to Alan Rickman. :D

Sheryll

Join the fun at Convention Alley 2008



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From willsonkmom at msn.com  Mon May 26 11:23:53 2008
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Mon, 26 May 2008 11:23:53 -0000
Subject: Rickman (was Re: Spin-Offs
In-Reply-To: <830011.93382.qm@web63402.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <g1e6k9+hqhg@eGroups.com>

 
> Sheryll:
> 
> I'm with Kemper on that one! We watch Galaxy Quest
> often during the day at the video store, so I get to
> see it a lot!

Potioncat:
Yep, we like it too. I wonder if Bumbledore meant to say that 'Quigly 
Down Under' was a pay-the-rent movie? 


>Sheryll: 
> Now, if we're talking Rickman films, I've seen just
> about everything. In fact, Amanda and I have an
> International Alan Rickman Film Extravaganza every
> time I visit her. This year we watched Snow Cake,
> Search for John Gissing (lovely snark in that one) and
> Help, I'm A Fish! We even had t-shirts made a couple
> years back and sent one to Alan Rickman. :D

Potioncat:
That sounds like fun. How did you get 'Search for John Gissing'? I 
didn't know it was out. I didn't care for 'Help I'm a Fish' but I did 
like 'Snow Cake'.  I had my son watch a couple of Weaver's scenes to 
get his take on her Austism performance. He's on the spectrum, and 
very interested in how any special need is portrayed. 

I've seen most of Rickman's films too. I only saw a few clips of 
Closet Land...I knew I couldn't handle that one!      
__________________________________________________________________
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From lilandriss at yahoo.com  Mon May 26 12:30:30 2008
From: lilandriss at yahoo.com (Alanna)
Date: Mon, 26 May 2008 08:30:30 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: HP Actor killed! (Not Dan R)
In-Reply-To: <830011.93382.qm@web63402.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <672941.50446.qm@web53408.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Anyone heard this yet? 
  http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/afp/080524/world/britain_crime_film_potter

       
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From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Mon May 26 14:20:12 2008
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Mon, 26 May 2008 14:20:12 -0000
Subject: HP Actor killed! (Not Dan R)
In-Reply-To: <672941.50446.qm@web53408.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <g1egus+4bee@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Alanna <lilandriss at ...> wrote:
>
> Anyone heard this yet? 
>   http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/afp/080524/world/britain_crime_film_potter

Geoff:
Saw it on teletext reports last night.

The papers seem to be pushing his HP connection and one at least 
had headlines "Harry Potter star murdered".

No disrespect to the victim, but I read the report expecting a name I knew. 
This guy was playing a minor character in HBP. Sad part for me is that I 
recognise so many places names involved in the spate of teen killings in 
London.




From s_ings at yahoo.com  Mon May 26 14:37:20 2008
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Mon, 26 May 2008 10:37:20 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Rickman (was Re: Spin-Offs)
In-Reply-To: <g1e6k9+hqhg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <822676.23635.qm@web63408.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

>  
> > Sheryll:
> > 
> > I'm with Kemper on that one! We watch Galaxy Quest
> > often during the day at the video store, so I get
> to
> > see it a lot!
> 
> Potioncat:
> Yep, we like it too. I wonder if Bumbledore meant to
> say that 'Quigly 
> Down Under' was a pay-the-rent movie? 
> 
Sheryll again:

Quite possibly, though being a true Rickman fan I have
a copy in my collection. :)

> 
> >Sheryll: 
> > Now, if we're talking Rickman films, I've seen
> just
> > about everything. In fact, Amanda and I have an
> > International Alan Rickman Film Extravaganza every
> > time I visit her. This year we watched Snow Cake,
> > Search for John Gissing (lovely snark in that one)
> and
> > Help, I'm A Fish! We even had t-shirts made a
> couple
> > years back and sent one to Alan Rickman. :D
> 
> Potioncat:
> That sounds like fun. How did you get 'Search for
> John Gissing'? I 
> didn't know it was out. I didn't care for 'Help I'm
> a Fish' but I did 
> like 'Snow Cake'.  I had my son watch a couple of
> Weaver's scenes to 
> get his take on her Austism performance. He's on the
> spectrum, and 
> very interested in how any special need is
> portrayed. 
> 
> I've seen most of Rickman's films too. I only saw a
> few clips of 
> Closet Land...I knew I couldn't handle that one!    

Sheryll again:

We can always have you join us in Texas the next time
I go to Amanda's so you can enjoy the Rickman-y
goodness with us. :D

Search For John Gissing never got a distributor,
despite being well received at film festivals. The
only place to purchase it is directly through Sunlight
Productions. There had been a rumor that Mike Binder
was going to remake the movie with a different cast.
That prompted one Alan Rickman fan to start a
petition. She gathered so many names that Mr. Binder
decided to make the movie available through his
company's website. The fan who started the petition
then emailed everyone who signed it and let them know
where they could get the movie! It's full of much
delightful snark and fun to watch. The page for
ordering the movie is here:
http://www.sunlightproductions.com/freebird/store

Help! I'm a Fish was cute but I'm not sure I'd clamour
to watch it again. Snow Cake was marvelous. Weaver did
months of research for that role. Rickman did none. I
believe he was quoted from an interview as saying that
he didn't research because he character wasn't
supposed to know anything about autism, which makes
sense to me. Funny story about that movie. They filmed
it in Wawa, Ontario because they needed a place that
gets a lot of snow. It was the only spring that I can
recall that Wawa had really nice weather and no snow.
:D

Closet Land is indeed very disturbing and creepy.
Still, I wish they'd release it on DVD so that I can
add it to my collection. 

I'm guessing you've seen Dark Harbor. That's
definitely on of my favourites. Love the way the
ending makes you re-evaluate everything that went
before. 

Any other Rickman fans out there? What's your
favourite film of his? *pokes SSSusan* <vbg>

Sheryll

Join the fun at Convention Alley 2008



      __________________________________________________________________
Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! 

http://www.flickr.com/gift/



From willsonkmom at msn.com  Tue May 27 01:59:19 2008
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 01:59:19 -0000
Subject: Rickman (was Re: Spin-Offs)
In-Reply-To: <822676.23635.qm@web63408.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <g1fptn+l9fe@eGroups.com>

> Sheryll again:
> I'm guessing you've seen Dark Harbor. That's
> definitely on of my favourites. Love the way the
> ending makes you re-evaluate everything that went
> before.

Potioncat:
That's another creepy one! But you're right, everything changes after 
the ending.

 
The Rickman movie I most enjoy is "Sense and Sensibility." What's not 
to like about Brandon?  

     __________________________________________________________________





From editor at texas.net  Tue May 27 02:31:19 2008
From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist)
Date: Mon, 26 May 2008 21:31:19 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Rickman (was Re: Spin-Offs)
In-Reply-To: <g1fptn+l9fe@eGroups.com>
References: <822676.23635.qm@web63408.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <g1fptn+l9fe@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <1443E66B9290408C820974121C03C0BC@AmandaPC>

My personal favorite Rickman movies are, in no particular order (because it
depends on my mood): Blow Dry, GalaxyQuest, Sense & Sensibility, and
Something the Lord Made.  If you have missed any of these, rectify the
situation immediately. Yes, that is an order. Get moving.

 

This thread reminds me, I need to order myself another Gissing.  

 

~Amandageist

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com  Tue May 27 07:14:48 2008
From: doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com (doddiemoemoe)
Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 07:14:48 -0000
Subject: Rickman (was Re: Spin-Offs)
In-Reply-To: <1443E66B9290408C820974121C03C0BC@AmandaPC>
Message-ID: <g1gcd8+i8uv@eGroups.com>

DD here:

I've seen all of these movies but I'm quite particular with.. Galaxy 
Quest and Something the Lord Made...I also must add Hitchhikers Guide 
to the Galaxy(I simply cannot imagine any other actor depicting a 
depressed robotLOL!)!

(I have cable here in the U.S.....and all weekend I've been seeing 
Galaxy Quuest and STLM airing--so great! Laugh until you cry, cry 
until you laugh--or smile at least LOL))..

I liked S&S and Blow Dry too...but I do have my fav's..Have you seen 
Snow Cake?!?  Also, have you seen Rickman in any stage production?

DD

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Amanda Geist" <editor at ...> 
wrote:
 My personal favorite Rickman movies are, in no particular order 
(because it depends on my mood): Blow Dry, GalaxyQuest, Sense & 
Sensibility, and Something the Lord Made.  If you have missed any of 
these, rectify the situation immediately. Yes, that is an order. Get 
moving.
> 
>  





From willsonkmom at msn.com  Wed May 28 02:56:16 2008
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 02:56:16 -0000
Subject: Rickman (was Re: Spin-Offs)
In-Reply-To: <g1gcd8+i8uv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g1ihkg+c162@eGroups.com>


> DD here:> 
> I've seen all of these movies but I'm quite particular with.. Galaxy 
> Quest and Something the Lord Made...I also must add Hitchhikers Guide 
> to the Galaxy(I simply cannot imagine any other actor depicting a 
> depressed robotLOL!)!

Potioncat:
I haven't seen Hitchhikers Guide. But I've seen the others. I like 
Something the Lord Made because it reminds me of old Southern 
hospitals. They got that part right. I don't remember quite as far back 
as the movie goes, but quite a bit of it rang true for me.

I'll add 'An Awfully Big Adventure' to the list of must see if only to 
see Rickman's character at odds with a character named Potter whom 
everyone else seems to like. There's an Uncle Vernon too.

 

>




From gav_fiji at yahoo.com  Thu May 29 03:50:41 2008
From: gav_fiji at yahoo.com (Goddlefrood)
Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 03:50:41 -0000
Subject: JK Rowling pens a Harry Potter prequel
Message-ID: <g1l96h+s906@eGroups.com>

That's The Telegraph headline, from its website:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2044760/JK-Rowling-pens-a-Harry-
Potter-prequel.html?DCMP=EMC-new_29052008

I wonder what it might contain.

Goddlefrood




From kempermentor at yahoo.com  Thu May 29 15:41:22 2008
From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kempermentor)
Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 15:41:22 -0000
Subject: JK Rowling pens a Harry Potter prequel
In-Reply-To: <g1l96h+s906@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g1mir2+jd82@eGroups.com>


> Goddlefrood:
> I wonder what it might contain.

Kemper now:
I hope it's about Mrs Figg!  I have a crush on her.

Kemper




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Thu May 29 19:33:00 2008
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 19:33:00 -0000
Subject: JK Rowling pens a Harry Potter prequel
In-Reply-To: <g1mir2+jd82@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g1n0dd+l29k@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "kempermentor" <kempermentor at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> > Goddlefrood:
> > I wonder what it might contain.
> 
> Kemper now:
> I hope it's about Mrs Figg!  I have a crush on her.

Geoff:
Kemper! She's old enough to be your grandmother - even in a 
prequel which I can't imagine going back much beyond Godric's 
Hollow.

I can see the headline now,,,,

HPFGU TEAM MEMBER ARRESTED FOR GRANNYNAPPING
exclusive report by Rita Skeeter
:-)




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Thu May 29 19:35:48 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 19:35:48 -0000
Subject: JK Rowling pens a Harry Potter prequel
In-Reply-To: <g1mir2+jd82@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g1n0ik+olk8@eGroups.com>

Goddlefrood:
> > I wonder what it might contain.
> 
> Kemper now:
> I hope it's about Mrs Figg!  I have a crush on her.
http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/2008/5/29/j-k-rowling-updates-site-on-new-prequel-material
Carol responds:

Sorry to disappoint you, kemper. It's an 800-page short story about
the Marauders that takes place three years before Harry's birth. So we
*might* get to see James's transformation from arrogant berk to Order
member and find out at least one of the ways in which the Potters
defied Voldemort--or what happened to Remus Lupin when he was out of
Hogwarts and no longer had the Shrieking Shack to transform in (no
more running wild in Hogsmeade on full-moon nights). Personally, I'd
rather read about Severus Snape and any doubts or delusions he had
about joining the Death Eaters.

She said that the story was easy and fun to write and labeled it as a
chapter from the prequel that she isn't writing. See Leaky for details:

http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/2008/5/29/j-k-rowling-updates-site-on-new-prequel-material

or just go to the News section of JKR's website.

Carol, who supposes that we'll have to wait for "the Scottish Book" to
find out more about Mrs. Figg






From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Thu May 29 22:23:13 2008
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 22:23:13 -0000
Subject: JK Rowling pens a Harry Potter prequel
In-Reply-To: <g1n0ik+olk8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g1nach+d9o0@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:
>
Goddlefrood:
> > > I wonder what it might contain.

Kemper:
> > I hope it's about Mrs Figg!  I have a crush on her.
> http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/2008/5/29/j-k-rowling-updates-site-on-new-
prequel-material

Carol:
 
> Sorry to disappoint you, kemper. It's an 800-page short story about
> the Marauders that takes place three years before Harry's birth. 

<snip>
 
> She said that the story was easy and fun to write and labeled it as a
> chapter from the prequel that she isn't writing. 

Geoff:
I doubt whether you'll get anything like what you have on your wish 
list. 800 words is about two sides of A4.






From mcrudele78 at yahoo.com  Thu May 29 23:22:22 2008
From: mcrudele78 at yahoo.com (Mike)
Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 23:22:22 -0000
Subject: Rickman (was Re: Spin-Offs)
In-Reply-To: <g1ihkg+c162@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g1ndre+sgf0@eGroups.com>

> Potioncat:
> I haven't seen Hitchhikers Guide. But I've seen the others. 
> 
> I'll add 'An Awfully Big Adventure' to the list of must see if only 
> to see Rickman's character at odds with a character named Potter
> whom everyone else seems to like. There's an Uncle Vernon too.

Mike:

Add me to the Galaxy Quest fan list and I was actually entertained by 
Blow Dry, despite my sure-fire conviction that I wouldn't like it.

Has anybody seen "the January Man" with Kevin Kline, Mary-Elizabeth 
Mastrontonio, and more stars? 

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0097613/

Rickman plays Kevin Kline's gay, painter neighbor. I loved it.




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Fri May 30 01:47:30 2008
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 01:47:30 -0000
Subject: Rickman (was Re: Spin-Offs)
In-Reply-To: <g1ndre+sgf0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g1nmbi+hsit@eGroups.com>

Mike:
> 
> Has anybody seen "the January Man" with Kevin Kline, Mary-Elizabeth 
> Mastrontonio, and more stars? 
> 
> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0097613/
> 
> Rickman plays Kevin Kline's gay, painter neighbor. I loved it.


Potioncat:
He was gay!

Why am I always the last to know?





From willsonkmom at msn.com  Fri May 30 01:48:44 2008
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 01:48:44 -0000
Subject: JK Rowling pens a Harry Potter prequel
In-Reply-To: <g1n0ik+olk8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g1nmds+l4gn@eGroups.com>


> Carol responds:
> 
> Sorry to disappoint you, kemper. It's an 800-page short story about
> the Marauders that takes place three years before Harry's birth.

Potioncat:
JKR would consider 800 pages to be a short story.
;-)




From mcrudele78 at yahoo.com  Fri May 30 04:09:57 2008
From: mcrudele78 at yahoo.com (Mike)
Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 04:09:57 -0000
Subject: Rickman (and back to: Spin-Offs)
In-Reply-To: <g1nmbi+hsit@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g1numl+jdbq@eGroups.com>

> > Mike:
> > 
> > Has anybody seen "the January Man" 
> > 
> > Rickman plays Kevin Kline's gay, painter neighbor. I loved it.
> 
> 
> Potioncat:
> He was gay!
> 
> Why am I always the last to know?


Mike:
Kline's character says something like 'he bats from the other side
of the plate.' 

Don't know PC, your gay-dar on the fritz? Call tech support! ;-)

AR has some great snarky lines, but get's out snarked by Kline's 
character. But AR was at his understated best. I laughed at lots of 
both his and Kline's lines.

********
Back to the original premise of your thread:

HPfGU has me reading stuff I never would have picked up before, 
mostly out of ignorance. I've now read all of the Narnia books, 
Susan Cooper's "The Dark is Rising" and will probably try more in 
the series. I also think I'll test "His Dark Materials". I've read 
all of Doug Adams' Hitchhiker's series, thank you Frood Dude. All 
because of discussions on OTC and Main. And I read more critically, 
nowadays, where before I only read for entertainment and didn't care 
whether the author was doing a good job of geting me involved in the 
story.

I've even ventured into some of the classics after reading comments 
from Carol, Alla, et al. I've even vowed to try to get through 'War 
and Peace' after all of Alla's praise. Heck, if I can read the 100 
page rant of John Gaunt, I should be able to make it through W&P.

I'm reading "Emma" right now, a little more than a third of the way 
through. A quick question, without giving away anything there might 
be to give away; does Emma stay the whiny, self-centered, rich brat 
that she is fo far, all the way through the book? I now know why I 
didn't read any of Austen before - I don't like *any* of the 
characters, so far. I hope that changes, John Knightley shows *some* 
promise. 

Mike, who has a few other classics on his shelf that he's never read 
but intends to read 'em ;-)




From mcrudele78 at yahoo.com  Fri May 30 04:15:57 2008
From: mcrudele78 at yahoo.com (Mike)
Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 04:15:57 -0000
Subject: JK Rowling pens a Harry Potter prequel
In-Reply-To: <g1nmds+l4gn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g1nv1t+m32o@eGroups.com>

> > Carol responds:
> > 
> > Sorry to disappoint you, Kemper. It's an 800-page short story about
> > the Marauders that takes place three years before Harry's birth.
> 
> Potioncat:
> JKR would consider 800 pages to be a short story.
> ;-)

Mike:
800 *words*, m'dear, not pages.

Which means JKR won't get past 'splainin their nicknames, I suppose!




From kempermentor at yahoo.com  Fri May 30 04:31:35 2008
From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kempermentor)
Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 04:31:35 -0000
Subject: JK Rowling pens a Harry Potter prequel
In-Reply-To: <g1n0dd+l29k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g1nvv7+m5s5@eGroups.com>


> > Kemper earlier:
> > I hope it's about Mrs Figg!  I have a crush on her.
> 
> Geoff:
> Kemper! She's old enough to be your grandmother - even in a 
> prequel which I can't imagine going back much beyond Godric's 
> Hollow.

Kemper now:
Geoff... you flatter me to think me so young!  But Mrs. Figg is
probably more my mom's age (mid 60s).



> I can see the headline now,,,,
> 
> HPFGU TEAM MEMBER ARRESTED FOR GRANNYNAPPING
> exclusive report by Rita Skeeter

Kemper now:
As it's Rita Skeeter who'd be writing the article, I'm sure you'll
take it with a salt lick :)  I see me sitting at Mrs. Figg table with
some half-kneazle rubbing its head against my foot as I listen raptly
to a story from WW1 while eating one of her homemade molasses cookies.
 To quote my favorite werewolf: Delicious... delicious... 




From minnesotatiffany at hotmail.com  Fri May 30 04:36:40 2008
From: minnesotatiffany at hotmail.com (Tiffany B. Clark)
Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 04:36:40 -0000
Subject: JK Rowling pens a Harry Potter prequel
In-Reply-To: <g1nv1t+m32o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g1o08o+aq2v@eGroups.com>

> Mike:
>
> 800 *words*, m'dear, not pages.
> 
> Which means JKR won't get past 'splainin their nicknames, I suppose!

Tiffany:

Knowing JKR, 800 words will barely be enough for the table of contents, 
foreword, acklowedgements, & any personal information inserted before 
the book itself is wrote up.




From kempermentor at yahoo.com  Fri May 30 04:47:43 2008
From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kempermentor)
Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 04:47:43 -0000
Subject: JK Rowling pens a Harry Potter prequel
In-Reply-To: <g1n0ik+olk8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g1o0tf+38v0@eGroups.com>

> Carol responds:
> 
> ...It's an 800-page short story about the Marauders that takes place
>  three years before Harry's birth. So we *might* get to see James's
>  transformation from arrogant berk to Order
> member and find out at least one of the ways in which the Potters
> defied Voldemort--or what happened to Remus Lupin when he was out of
> Hogwarts and no longer had the Shrieking Shack to transform in (no
> more running wild in Hogsmeade on full-moon nights). Personally, I'd
> rather read about Severus Snape and any doubts or delusions he had
> about joining the Death Eaters.

Kemper now:
Yeah... A man can dream though.
I find the Marauders boring. Well... that's not entirely accurate.
They get on my nerves.  I don't understand their appeal.  Snape's as
much of a dick, but at least he's interesting. The only thing I'd want
to see from the Marauders is Peter's downfall.  But I'm sure with only
800 words, it'll be a lite and probably romantic romp.
(James' marriage proposal?  You heard it here first!  Where's
tigerwhatshername?)

> Carol:
> Carol, who supposes that we'll have to wait for "the Scottish Book"
> to find out more about Mrs. Figg

Kemper now:
::sigh::








From kempermentor at yahoo.com  Fri May 30 05:09:33 2008
From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kempermentor)
Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 05:09:33 -0000
Subject: Rickman (and back to: Spin-Offs)
In-Reply-To: <g1numl+jdbq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g1o26d+dv8a@eGroups.com>


> Mike:
> Back to the original premise of your thread:
> 
> HPfGU has me reading stuff I never would have picked up before, 
> mostly out of ignorance. ...
> I've read 
> all of Doug Adams' Hitchhiker's series, thank you Frood Dude. All 
> because of discussions on OTC and Main.

Kemper now:
Jumping in here to also thank the Frood of Fiji.  I finished the play,
'Look Back in Anger'.  Quite an angry, harsh story.  What was the
social climate of the time?  I just started Great Apes, but it hasn't
grabbed as much as LBiA though I'll still give it a go.  I heard
someone say that they give every book 100 pages.  If by page 101 you
are still laboring over the read, then quit reading and burn it. 
However, as I got Great Apes from the library, I think I will just
return it after reading the hundredth or last page.

> Mike:
> I'm reading "Emma" right now, a little more than a third of the way 
> through. 

Kemper now:
I haven't read Emma or any other Austen books.  However, I've seen
Emma, Sense and Sensibilities, and Pride and Prejudice several times
each.  I've even seen one in play form... though I couldn't tell you
which one as they all seem alike to me.  

Don't hate.






From OctobersChild48 at aol.com  Fri May 30 08:01:51 2008
From: OctobersChild48 at aol.com (OctobersChild48 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 04:01:51 EDT
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Rickman (and back to: Spin-Offs)
Message-ID: <d0e.2bd5cf7e.35710e6f@aol.com>

     
 
Mike:

I'm reading "Emma" right now, a little more than a third of the  way 
through. A quick question, without giving away anything there  might 
be to give away; does Emma stay the whiny, self-centered, rich  brat 
that she is fo far, all the way through the book? I now know  why I 
didn't read any of Austen before - I don't like *any* of the  
characters, so far. I hope that changes, John Knightley shows *some*  
promise. 


Sandy:
 
Hang in there with it. She does have a change in attitude, but it  takes a 
while to get to it. I love Austen, but "Emma" is not one of my  favorites. My 
favorite is "Pride and Prejudice". My least favorite is  "Northanger Abbey".
 
Sandy, who loves a lot of the classics.










**************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with 
Tyler Florence" on AOL Food.      
(http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com  Fri May 30 10:51:10 2008
From: doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com (doddiemoemoe)
Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 10:51:10 -0000
Subject: Rickman (was Re: Spin-Offs)
In-Reply-To: <g1ihkg+c162@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g1om6u+4fit@eGroups.com>

Potioncat wrote:
 I haven't seen Hitchhikers Guide. But I've seen the others. I like 
something the Lord Made because it reminds me of old Southern 
hospitals. They got that part right. I don't remember quite as far back
as the movie goes, but quite a bit of it rang true for me.


Doddie here:

  Erm...sorry but John's Hopkins is an EAST COAST Hospital...Via the 
state of Maryland if I'm not mistaken...this is what makes so many 
moments of the story so much more poignant..

Potioncat again stated 
> I'll add 'An Awfully Big Adventure' to the list of must see if only 
to see Rickman's character at odds with a character named Potter whom 
everyone else seems to like. There's an Uncle Vernon too.

Doddie here:

Liked that "Adventure" as well...but like the Potter Series...not his 
best..

Doddie




From gav_fiji at yahoo.com  Fri May 30 11:04:35 2008
From: gav_fiji at yahoo.com (Goddlefrood)
Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 11:04:35 -0000
Subject: Spin-Offs (back from Rickman)
In-Reply-To: <g1o26d+dv8a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g1on03+tsh3@eGroups.com>

> > Mike:
> > Back to the original premise of your thread:

> > HPfGU has me reading stuff I never would have picked up before, 
> > mostly out of ignorance. ...
> > I've read all of Doug Adams' Hitchhiker's series, thank you 
> > Frood Dude.

Goddlefrood:

I'm glad you liked it. I was in at the beginning with that series 
and even have a first edition of the first book. I wonder if it's 
worth anything, even though I'd never part with it (it's falling 
apart anyway).

I know you know this, but in general, Adams also wrote two 
Dirk Gently books. They are also worth looking into for 
anyone interested.

> Kemper now:
> Jumping in here to also thank the Frood of Fiji. I finished the 
> play, 'Look Back in Anger'. Quite an angry, harsh story. 

Goddlefrood:

Hence the tile :-). It was written in the mid 50s, around the time 
of the Suez crisis. Rationing and post-war hardship were coming to 
an end, as was the old regimen. I'd mentioned it as influential 
when we discussed this earlier; it was in the sense that much of 
what followed was in a similar vein for a time and the crusty old 
fuddy duddies who'd run England and much of the wider world were 
becoming extinct. It led on to inspire a lot of satire, with TW3 
(I'll let Geoff explain, before my time), Monty Python and many 
more seminal aspects of recent British culture flowing from it 
in the sense that the previous barriers to criticism of those 
on the grav.. er, in the corridors of power were now fair game.

> Kemper:

> I just started Great Apes

Goddlefrood:

It improves, at least I thought so. I liked the basic premise and 
it was also full of familiar places, myself having spent several 
years in and around north west London.

Oh, and I told you I knew where my towel was ;-)




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Fri May 30 12:12:04 2008
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 12:12:04 -0000
Subject: Rickman (was Re: Spin-Offs)
In-Reply-To: <g1om6u+4fit@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g1oquk+71hs@eGroups.com>

 
> Doddie here:
> 
>   Erm...sorry but John's Hopkins is an EAST COAST Hospital...Via 
the 
> state of Maryland if I'm not mistaken...this is what makes so many 
> moments of the story so much more poignant..

Potioncat:
Maryland is south of the Mason-Dixon Line. It was a Southern, slave 
state before the Civil War. Although Maryland did not leave the Union 
and was not a Confederate state. 

The racial issues I saw in the movie were very consitent with what 
I've seen in Maryland---although I've never lived there.

But what I was really talking about was the look of the place. The 
feel of the building. I've been a couple of old Southern hospitals---
very nice modern complexes---but if you wander far enough you come to 
a portion of the original building and it's like you stepped into a 
time portal. I grew up in a Southern city and remember the hospital 
from before the renovatins began. I don't know if it's a regional 
architecture, or if all hospitals from a certain era looked the same.

Potioncat, out of curiosity, wondering where Doddie lives?---in a 
general sense.






From willsonkmom at msn.com  Fri May 30 15:12:12 2008
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 15:12:12 -0000
Subject: Rickman (and back to: Spin-Offs)
In-Reply-To: <d0e.2bd5cf7e.35710e6f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <g1p5gc+qmk2@eGroups.com>

 
> Sandy:
>  
> Hang in there with it. She does have a change in attitude, but it  
takes a 
> while to get to it. I love Austen, but "Emma" is not one of my  
favorites. My 
> favorite is "Pride and Prejudice". My least favorite 
is  "Northanger Abbey".
>  
> Sandy, who loves a lot of the classics.
> 


Potioncat:
I'll second the commnents on Emma.

I liked both Pride and Prejudice and Sense and Sensibility.

I've enjoyed all the Austen books, but to be honest, they're a blur 
now. I can't always remember which characters came from which books. 





From drdara at yahoo.com  Fri May 30 22:45:59 2008
From: drdara at yahoo.com (danielle dassero)
Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 15:45:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Printing Mistake
Message-ID: <754576.68236.qm@web65505.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

I am going through yet another endless reread of all the HP books, and I am reading my British copy of POA and noticed this mistake 'A History of Magic, by Adalbert Waffling".? I checked PS/ST and it says Waffling did Magical Theory, doublechecked my POA American Edition, and it says History of Magic by Bathilda Bagshot. I just found this funny, because my British edition is a later edition, I know this because my British PS, says FLint is a 5th yr instead of a 6th yr. Does anyone else have a POA American or British edition with the same mistake as mine in it??? Has anyone mentioned this mistake before?
Danielle


      



From s_ings at yahoo.com  Sat May 31 00:08:09 2008
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 20:08:09 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Rickman (was Re: Spin-Offs)
In-Reply-To: <g1gcd8+i8uv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <121327.60700.qm@web63411.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

> Sheryll:
> I'm guessing you've seen Dark Harbor. That's
> definitely on of my favourites. Love the way the
> ending makes you re-evaluate everything that went
> before.

Potioncat:
That's another creepy one! But you're right,
everything changes after 
the ending.

 
The Rickman movie I most enjoy is "Sense and
Sensibility." What's not 
to like about Brandon?  

Sheryll again:

Brandon is such a wonderful character. Yes, definitely
on my like list. :D

"Amanda Geist" <editor at ... wrote:
>  My personal favorite Rickman movies are, in no
> particular order 
> (because it depends on my mood): Blow Dry,
> GalaxyQuest, Sense & 
> Sensibility, and Something the Lord Made.  If you
> have missed any of 
> these, rectify the situation immediately. Yes, that
> is an order. Get 
> moving.

> DD here:
> 
> I've seen all of these movies but I'm quite
> particular with.. Galaxy 
> Quest and Something the Lord Made...I also must add
> Hitchhikers Guide 
> to the Galaxy(I simply cannot imagine any other
> actor depicting a 
> depressed robotLOL!)!
> 
> (I have cable here in the U.S.....and all weekend
> I've been seeing 
> Galaxy Quuest and STLM airing--so great! Laugh until
> you cry, cry 
> until you laugh--or smile at least LOL))..
> 
> I liked S&S and Blow Dry too...but I do have my
> fav's..Have you seen 
> Snow Cake?!?  Also, have you seen Rickman in any
> stage production?
> 
> DD
> 
Sheryll again:

I'm always hard pressed to pick a Rickman favourite.
Like Amanda, it depends on my mood. Love him as the
Sheriff in Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves. Blow Dry's
Phil ranks up there. Snow Cake was wonderful. And he
spent a couple days here in Ottawa after the filming
of that one, though I didn't manage to run into him
anywhere while he was here.

Both Amanda and I have seen him on stage in Private
Lives. Twice. Have much autographed goodness and a
couple photos. We even invited him out for ice cream
after the play. He politely declined. Probably thinks
we're a couple of lunatics. 

I even gave up my autographed copy of Truly, Madly,
Deeply for the charity auction at the last Convention
Alley in 2004. Am kicking myself there, as I figured I
could replace the VHS with a DVD copy. No such luck,
the darn thing has been discontinued with our
distributor at work. Must wander down the video/book
store at the mall near work. They use multiple
distributors and can probably nab me a copy.

Sheryll, rambling after a very long day

Join the fun at Convention Alley 2008



      __________________________________________________________________
Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail.  Click on Options in Mail and switch to New Mail today or register for free at http://mail.yahoo.ca



From leekaiwen at yahoo.com  Sat May 31 00:57:07 2008
From: leekaiwen at yahoo.com (Lee Kaiwen)
Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 08:57:07 +0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] JK Rowling pens a Harry Potter prequel
In-Reply-To: <g1l96h+s906@eGroups.com>
References: <g1l96h+s906@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4840A263.8080707@yahoo.com>

Goddlefrood On 5/29/2008 11:50 AM:

> I wonder what it might contain.

My guess: a magic carpetful of contradictions.

Which is not a bad thing. It'll certainly give HPFGU fresh material to 
talk about :-)

CJ




From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Sat May 31 02:53:04 2008
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 02:53:04 -0000
Subject: Printing Mistake
In-Reply-To: <754576.68236.qm@web65505.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <g1qeig+dl7n@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, danielle dassero <drdara at ...> 
wrote:

> I am going through yet another endless reread of all the HP books, 
and I am reading my British copy of POA and noticed this mistake 'A 
History of Magic, by Adalbert Waffling".? I checked PS/ST and it says 
Waffling did Magical Theory, doublechecked my POA American Edition, 
and it says History of Magic by Bathilda Bagshot. I just found this 
funny, because my British edition is a later edition, I know this 
because my British PS, says FLint is a 5th yr instead of a 6th yr. 
Does anyone else have a POA American or British edition with the same 
mistake as mine in it??? Has anyone mentioned this mistake before?



Yeah, Geoff mentioned this mistake once on the main list. He has the 
Deluxe edition, I believe. I have Bloomsbury edition as well, but my 
book says Bathilda Bagshot. My book is hardcover adult edition, 
printed in 2004. What year edition your book is? I will need to check 
about Flint in PS though :-).

zanooda







From drdara at yahoo.com  Sat May 31 03:13:29 2008
From: drdara at yahoo.com (danielle dassero)
Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 20:13:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Printing Mistake
Message-ID: <750077.64657.qm@web65505.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

I don't know, all it says is 1st published in 99, copyrighted in 99, doesn't tell me what edition it is, unless the #41 under the name of the typeset means anything, doesn't say a yr though. Mine are the regular kids british version. 
Danielle


----- Original Message ----
From: zanooda2 <zanooda2 at yahoo.com>
To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, May 30, 2008 8:53:04 PM
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Printing Mistake


--- In HPFGU-OTChatter@ yahoogroups. com, danielle dassero <drdara at ...> 
wrote:

> I am going through yet another endless reread of all the HP books, 
and I am reading my British copy of POA and noticed this mistake 'A 
History of Magic, by Adalbert Waffling".? I checked PS/ST and it says 
Waffling did Magical Theory, doublechecked my POA American Edition, 
and it says History of Magic by Bathilda Bagshot. I just found this 
funny, because my British edition is a later edition, I know this 
because my British PS, says FLint is a 5th yr instead of a 6th yr. 
Does anyone else have a POA American or British edition with the same 
mistake as mine in it??? Has anyone mentioned this mistake before?

Yeah, Geoff mentioned this mistake once on the main list. He has the 
Deluxe edition, I believe. I have Bloomsbury edition as well, but my 
book says Bathilda Bagshot. My book is hardcover adult edition, 
printed in 2004. What year edition your book is? I will need to check 
about Flint in PS though :-).

zanooda

 


      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From n2fgc at arrl.net  Sat May 31 03:41:50 2008
From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Lee Storm(God Is The Healing Force))
Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 23:41:50 -0400
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] JK Rowling pens a Harry Potter prequel
In-Reply-To: <4840A263.8080707@yahoo.com>
References: <g1l96h+s906@eGroups.com> <4840A263.8080707@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <762F60D19FB142AF81132B094C891146@FRODO>

| Goddlefrood On 5/29/2008 11:50 AM:
| 
| > I wonder what it might contain.
| 
[CJ]:
| My guess: a magic carpetful of contradictions.
| 
| Which is not a bad thing. It'll certainly give HPFGU fresh 
| material to 
| talk about :-)

[Lee]:
Well, have fun, as I know I'll never see a copy in a format I can read, i.e.
plain text, Word, audio.  I'm sure that The Bard will never go audio,
either.

Cheers,

Lee :-)

Do not walk behind me,    | Lee Storm
I may not care to lead;   | N2FGC
Do not walk before me,    | n2fgc at arrl.net (or)
I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at optonline.net
Walk beside me, and be my friend.




From gav_fiji at yahoo.com  Sat May 31 04:30:21 2008
From: gav_fiji at yahoo.com (Goddlefrood)
Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 04:30:21 -0000
Subject: JK Rowling pens a Harry Potter prequel
In-Reply-To: <762F60D19FB142AF81132B094C891146@FRODO>
Message-ID: <g1qk8t+ug7s@eGroups.com>

> [Lee]:
> I know I'll never see a copy in a format I can read, i.e. plain 
> text, Word, audio.  I'm sure that The Bard will never go audio,
> either.

Goddlefrood:

Well, apparently the latest is to be published online once auctioned 
off, so you should be able to have your screenreader read it. And, 
unless anyone here works for Amazon, none of us have read The Bard's 
tales, barring The Tale of the Three Brothers. I've read the reviews 
at Amazon, but haven't yet come across any version to read, whether 
online or otherwise.

Keep your fingers crossed and I'm sure you (generic as well as Lee) 
will be reading the short prequel soon enough.




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Sat May 31 06:26:21 2008
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 06:26:21 -0000
Subject: JK Rowling pens a Harry Potter prequel
In-Reply-To: <4840A263.8080707@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <g1qr2d+gfd0@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Lee Kaiwen <leekaiwen at ...> wrote:
>
> Goddlefrood On 5/29/2008 11:50 AM:
> 
> > I wonder what it might contain.

Lee: 
> My guess: a magic carpetful of contradictions.
> 
> Which is not a bad thing. It'll certainly give HPFGU fresh material to 
> talk about :-)

Geoff:
If so, thank goodness!!




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Sat May 31 06:34:40 2008
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 06:34:40 -0000
Subject: Printing Mistake
In-Reply-To: <g1qeig+dl7n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g1qri0+naa0@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "zanooda2" <zanooda2 at ...> wrote:
>
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, danielle dassero <drdara@> 
> wrote:
> 
> > I am going through yet another endless reread of all the HP books, 
> and I am reading my British copy of POA and noticed this mistake 'A 
> History of Magic, by Adalbert Waffling".? I checked PS/ST and it says 
> Waffling did Magical Theory, doublechecked my POA American Edition, 
> and it says History of Magic by Bathilda Bagshot. I just found this 
> funny, because my British edition is a later edition, I know this 
> because my British PS, says FLint is a 5th yr instead of a 6th yr. 
> Does anyone else have a POA American or British edition with the same 
> mistake as mine in it??? Has anyone mentioned this mistake before?
 
zanooda:
> Yeah, Geoff mentioned this mistake once on the main list. He has the 
> Deluxe edition, I believe. I have Bloomsbury edition as well, but my 
> book says Bathilda Bagshot. My book is hardcover adult edition, 
> printed in 2004. What year edition your book is? I will need to check 
> about Flint in PS though :-).

Geoff:
You have a good memory. I'd forgotten that although I was intending to 
post to say that it /has/ been discussed on Main in the past.

My Deluxe edition, which is dated as 1999 but which I bought in 2003, 
possibly 2004 - depending on when I started getting the DL editions - 
has Marcus Flint as a Sixth Year. Of course, that is the discrepancy which 
established the new English word "flint" for an unforced error.







From mcrudele78 at yahoo.com  Sat May 31 16:38:41 2008
From: mcrudele78 at yahoo.com (Mike)
Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 16:38:41 -0000
Subject: Rickman (and back to: Spin-Offs)
In-Reply-To: <g1p5gc+qmk2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g1ruuh+2t4l@eGroups.com>

> > Sandy:
> >  
> > Hang in there with it. She does have a change in attitude, but
> > it takes a while to get to it. I love Austen, but "Emma" is not
> > one of my favorites. My favorite is "Pride and Prejudice".
> 
> 
> Potioncat:
> I'll second the commnents on Emma.
> 
> I liked both Pride and Prejudice and Sense and Sensibility.
> 
> I've enjoyed all the Austen books, but to be honest, they're a blur
> now. I can't always remember which characters came from which books.


Mike:
So I guess I was a dolt for picking up "Emma" first, huh? 

I've seen the Kiara Knightley movie version of P&P and liked it. I 
would've been better off starting there, I take it?





From minnesotatiffany at hotmail.com  Sat May 31 16:52:27 2008
From: minnesotatiffany at hotmail.com (Tiffany B. Clark)
Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 16:52:27 -0000
Subject: Rickman (and back to: Spin-Offs)
In-Reply-To: <g1ruuh+2t4l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g1rvob+kpe9@eGroups.com>

> Mike:
>
> So I guess I was a dolt for picking up "Emma" first, huh? 
 
I've seen the Kiara Knightley movie version of P&P and liked it. I 
would've been better off starting there, I take it?

Tiffany:

Pride & Prejudice is easily one Austen's best books, but Emma is pretty 
good as well.  Some books don't translate too well to movies because 
Henry James's best novel, The Portrait of a Lady was a bomb at the box 
office, even with a faithful adaption of the book.




From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Sat May 31 18:14:54 2008
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 18:14:54 -0000
Subject: Printing Mistake
In-Reply-To: <g1qri0+naa0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g1s4iu+7f4a@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" 
<gbannister10 at ...> wrote:

> My Deluxe edition, which is dated as 1999 but which I bought in 2003, 
> possibly 2004 - depending on when I started getting the DL editions - 
> has Marcus Flint as a Sixth Year. Of course, that is the discrepancy 
> which established the new English word "flint" for an unforced error.


zanooda:

My British edition PS book (also 2004) gives Flint as a 5th year, and 
so does my American edition SS (p.150), which is actually first edition 
(1998), or at least I think so :-). Although I of course heard about 
the whole Flint thing, I personally never saw this mistake in print - 
none of my books has it! Maybe they correct those mistakes one by one, 
you know. For example, Waffling/Bagshot mistake - maybe your book is, 
say, second edition, and mine is third edition, and it makes all the 
difference. Otherwise I just can't explain it :-).





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat May 31 19:57:09 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 19:57:09 -0000
Subject: JK Rowling pens a Harry Potter prequel
In-Reply-To: <g1nmds+l4gn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g1sail+k82q@eGroups.com>

Carol earlier:
> > 
> > Sorry to disappoint you, kemper. It's an 800-page short story about
> > the Marauders that takes place three years before Harry's birth.
> 
> Potioncat:
> JKR would consider 800 pages to be a short story.
> ;-)
>
Carol responds:

Did I say 800 pages? I meant 800 words!

Carol, who counts 250 words as one 8 1/2-by 11-inch page in her
editing projects, so it would be a 3.2-page short story (maybe three
pages on A4 paper?)




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Sat May 31 19:58:54 2008
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 19:58:54 -0000
Subject: Printing Mistake
In-Reply-To: <g1s4iu+7f4a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g1salu+if24@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "zanooda2" <zanooda2 at ...> wrote:
>
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" 
> <gbannister10@> wrote:
> 
> > My Deluxe edition, which is dated as 1999 but which I bought in 2003, 
> > possibly 2004 - depending on when I started getting the DL editions - 
> > has Marcus Flint as a Sixth Year. Of course, that is the discrepancy 
> > which established the new English word "flint" for an unforced error.
> 
> 
> zanooda:
> 
> My British edition PS book (also 2004) gives Flint as a 5th year, and 
> so does my American edition SS (p.150), which is actually first edition 
> (1998), or at least I think so :-). Although I of course heard about 
> the whole Flint thing, I personally never saw this mistake in print - 
> none of my books has it! Maybe they correct those mistakes one by one, 
> you know. For example, Waffling/Bagshot mistake - maybe your book is, 
> say, second edition, and mine is third edition, and it makes all the 
> difference. Otherwise I just can't explain it :-).

Geoff:
It's a flint.
:-))






From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat May 31 20:10:22 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 20:10:22 -0000
Subject: Rickman (and back to: Spin-Offs)
In-Reply-To: <g1numl+jdbq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <g1sbbe+q3b5@eGroups.com>

Mike wrote:
> <snip> I'm reading "Emma" right now, a little more than a third of
the way through. A quick question, without giving away anything there
might be to give away; does Emma stay the whiny, self-centered, rich
brat  that she is fo far, all the way through the book? I now know why
I  didn't read any of Austen before - I don't like *any* of the 
characters, so far. I hope that changes, John Knightley shows *some* 
promise. 
> 
> Mike, who has a few other classics on his shelf that he's never read
but intends to read 'em ;-)

Carol responds:
Funny--I'm also rereading "Emma," though I know how it ends so I'm not
in any hurry to finish and I keep getting side-tracked. I don't
consider Emma to be a typical Austen character; certainly, she's an
atypical Austen heroine. I wouldn't call her whiny, but she certainly
does think nothing of minding other people's business and her view of
her own intelligence rivals Dumbledore's.

As for whether she stays that way, consider the genre, romantic comedy
(with elements of the comedy of errors and comedy of manners thrown
in). If you've watched or read any of Shakespeare's comedies, you can
guess how this book ends. If not, keep reading, anyway. I think you'll
like the ending. And, BTW, if you decide to read another Austen novel,
I suggest "Pride and Prejudice," the most famous of her books with
good reason. If you don't like Lizzie Bennett better than you like
Emma, I'll be very surprised.

Carol, imagining Emma with a mother like Mrs. Bennett--or, heaven
forfend, Lady Catherine





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat May 31 21:15:33 2008
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 21:15:33 -0000
Subject: Printing Mistake
In-Reply-To: <754576.68236.qm@web65505.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <g1sf5l+7bm4@eGroups.com>

Danielle wrote:
>
> I am going through yet another endless reread of all the HP books,
and I am reading my British copy of POA and noticed this mistake 'A
History of Magic, by Adalbert Waffling".  I checked PS/ST and it says
Waffling did Magical Theory, doublechecked my POA American Edition,
and it says History of Magic by Bathilda Bagshot. I just found this
funny, because my British edition is a later edition, I know this
because my British PS, says FLint is a 5th yr instead of a 6th yr.
Does anyone else have a POA American or British edition with the same
mistake as mine in it??? Has anyone mentioned this mistake before?

>
Carol responds:
The Lexicon lists this error, which occurs only in the British
edition, as a difference between the British and American editions of PoA:

http://www.hp-lexicon.org/about/books/pa/differences-pa.html

My guess is that the error is JKR's and was caught in the manuscript
by the American continuity editor or a copyeditor but was missed by
their counterparts at Bloomsbury. whether it has been corrected in
subsequent editions, I don't know.

It's a shame: Adalbert Waffling as the author of a book on magical
theory is one of JKR's own little jokes (cf. Ron's words in OoP about
Umbridge's speech sounding like "a load of waffle" to him). and JKR
should have remembered that Bathilda Bagshot, the author of "A History
of Magic," would have a part in DH--as the author of a book on the
history of magic. Maybe it was late at night and, as JKR was glancing
at a list of textbook authors, her eyes slipped down one line between
the time she wrote the author's name and the title ("Magical Theory"
by Adalbert Waffling immediately follows "A History of Magic" by
Bathilda Bagshot in SS/PS and probably in JKR's notes, as well).

Don't know if that makes sense, but if I can write "800 pages" when I
mean "800 words," JKR can mix up two authors even though, in another
part of her brain, she's perfectly aware of the distinction. I suppose
it's like calling your mother by your sister's name, or your boyfriend
by your ex-husband's.

Carol, glad that the American copy/continuity editor was on the alert
in that instance, at least