Inspired by religion discussion on Main

[Carol]

Magpie wrote:
<snip>
> I remember reading a some Aztec story about the gods deciding one of them had to sacrifice himself to be the sun? Don't know whether that ocunts as resurrection if he became the sun. 

Carol responds:
I vaguely remember that the human victims were supposed to take the place of the murdered gods, but, of course, I probably remember incorrectly. But, IIRC, they had to sacrifice one or more victims every day or the sun wouldn't come up. Needless to say, neighboring tribes who didn't share their religion (and were often forcibly recruited to be victims) were not unhappy when the Aztecs were defeated by the Spanish. Which is not to say that the Conquistadors weren't also ruthless, just not in that way.

Magpie: 
> Though as an aside I always think it's kind of interesting to have a life sacrifice when the sacrifice is immortal since that's not a life sacrifice.

Carol responds:
With regard to the Aztecs, I don't know enough about them to comment. Osiris and Horus weren't sacrificed; they were murdered and later restored to life. Dionysos was also murdered but (according to Frazer), the Titans were careful to do it in a way that conformed with the rules of ritual sacrifice. It was still murder, though, and he, too, was later restored to life. In no case did these gods willingly sacrifice themselves to help humankind or anyone else, nor did they know that they would be killed (much less that they would be restored to life),

The case of Jesus as presented in the Bible is different. He knew that he would have to die--and suffer greatly in the process--to save sinners, but I'm not entirely sure that he expected to be resurrected. "Today thou shalt be with me in Paradise" seems indicates that he expected to go to Heaven just like the good thief who believed him to be the Son of God. And, certainly, he didn't *want* to die (especially through crucifixion) since he prayed in the Garden of Gethsamane, "Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done." IOW, the will of God the Father is to sacrifice his only son to save sinners (and, of course, to resurrect him), but Jesus' own desire is to have this terrible burden taken from him. But he yields to God's will and allows himself to be sacrificed--not only to suffer the agony of dying on the cross but to actually die like any other man. The Romans confirmed that he was dead and took him down from the cross, allowing him to be buried. After two nights and a day in the tomb, he was resurrected--or, being the Son of God or God in human form, came back to life. (The Unitarian view that he's the son of God doing his father's will is easier to understand and seems to me to fit better with the depiction of events in the Bible, but that's a personal preference. It's also an odd view for me to hold since I was raised Episcopalian.)

Anyway, Christ's experience is not, in this respect, like Harry Potter's (as I think Geoff would agree). He actually dies and dies painfully after nearly a day of agony. Unlike Harry, he isn't killed (or "killed") by a quick and seemingly painless curse and doesn't enjoy a quick and mostly enjoyable conversation with his mentor before returning to earth and life virtually instantly (though it seems longer to Harry). Instead, Jesus spent three days in hell/Sheol/Hades which I won't go into because they're variously interpreted ("three days" is not exactly accurate, either, since it would not be three complete days--part of Good Friday, all of Holy Saturday, and the morning of Easter, to give the days their modern Christian names). After that, he walked around on earth, solid flesh but marked by the scars of crucifixion, eating, drinking and talking with his disciples. He did not, however, just stay with the disciples to die again later (as Harry stays in the WW until he someday dies a normal and permanent death). Instead, he ascended into heaven forty days later.

Which is not to say that Harry isn't a Christ figure, just that his experience, which is that of a human being, can't possibly duplicate Christ's. What I'm trying to say is that Christ is simultaneously a human being who can suffer and die and a divine being who can rise from the dead. Not even Dionysus, whose mother was human, is both god and man in that sense. Whatever we may think of the story of Christ as depicted in the Bible, Jesus of Nazareth was a historical person (which cannot be said of Osiris, Horus, or Dionysos).

Anyway, please note that I'm not preaching here or trying to impose my religion on anybody, especially considering that I'm too analytical to take the Bible literally. I'm just trying to compare the story of Jesus as it's presented in the Bible and compare it objectively with the stories of dying gods in Greek and Egyptian mythology. (I don't really see a connection with Aztec mythology, which arose in a very different part of the world and cannot have influenced the biblical accounts in any way.

Carol, who spoke too soon about glorious spring weather--it's a cloudy, intermittently rainy day in Tucson