Twilight (HUGE SPOILERS - do not read if did not read book 4) v Harry Potter

[dumbledore11214]

SSSusan:
Well, truthfully, I think this is where having given a pass to books
2 & 3 might make a difference in how you view this issue. I do think
it was made clear in the books that at least some of the Cullens --
most particularly Jasper -- had a big-time struggle.

I mean, you're right that we don't see a whole lot of it. If Meyer
had decided to show us the story of each of the Cullen kids as they
first joined the clan, then we might have seen more of that.
Understandably, I think, she did not provide those backstories, and
by the time we meet the Cullens, most of them have had a good long
period of time to get their cravings in check.


Alla:

Maybe I will end up ordering books 2 and 3 in the library, goodness 
knows these are books I can wait for lol, however, read along, maybe 
it will become clearer why I am so hesitant to do so and this issue 
is pretty much an aside, not the most important one why I dislike 
them.

SSSusan:
FWIW, I do think the movie did a decent job of showing Edward
struggling against his blood lust when Bella was attacked by James.


Alla:

LOL, seriously, if you would not tell me, I would have never guessed 
that this is what it was. I am being absolutely serious here – I 
remember this moment well and I remember that my reaction was that he 
is struggling with his rage, with his desire to kill James pronto, 
never had it entered my mind that he is struggling with blood lust, 
but you could be right of course.

Do not get me wrong, I think movie did a VERY good job. I will be 
forever thankful for downplaying Bella's obsessive ness, AND for 
actually trying to make some sort of plot happening. For trying to 
bring bad vampires in early, etc,etc.

Alla:
> It just felt so wierd to me that the twit wanted to become a
> monster, instead of say wanting her boyfriend to become human, you
> know?

SSSusan:
Except, this wasn't a possibility in the world she created -- Edward
becoming human. I can see Bella's interest in joining their world.
The Cullens were "civilized," of course, so I'm sure that made the
possibility all the more attractive... as did the romantic notion
of "forever."

Alla:

Yes, I know that this is not a possibility, that was sort of my 
point, heh.

SSSusan:
This is just it. For some, the series it TORTURE -- they hate the
obsessive love, they see real unhealthiness in the Bella-Edward
relationship -- but for others, it's pure escapism and can really tap
into that "Ah, romance!!" side of us. Parts of it are damn good
adventure, too.

Alla:

Hm, I hope you do not mind if I will ask couple more questions. Oh 
and yes, totally – Ah romance is as good reason as any to enjoy the 
book.

And really again, I enjoyed romance in book 1 up till very end. But 
the question I want to ask is about good adventure. Um, which part is 
a good adventure, could you tell me please?

No, actually let me rephrase, where is an adventure, period? Besides 
of course falling in love with vampire thing, because see part of my 
dislike of the books is that, well, as far as I am concerned nothing 
really happens in them.

Okay, I read book 1, right? So what is happening there besides Bella 
falling in love with Edward and vice versa? Where is the plot?

I do like romance, but I guess I prefer my romance to be served with 
something else – be it mystery, adventure or whatever. It is of 
course purely subjective opinion of the plot, nothing about merits of 
the book as literary creation. In fact, the fact that she made me 
enjoy the book where nothing happens, and still wrote a tale I wanted 
to keep turning pages, well tells me that she CAN write something.

See below though about people hating obsessive love and unhealthiness 
of their relationship.


Kemper:
> My wife likes the Twilight series because she liked the horrible
> girl-books growing up. An example of one is twin girls in high
> school. One good, one bad. The bad one sneaks out in the middle of
> the night to meet and make out with the bad guy. And the guy tries
> to go for a little under the shirt action, and the bad-but-
> apparently-not-naughty twin runs back home crying that he would do
> such a thing. wtf. What kind of message that send?!? The wife
> knows they sucked now, but she liked them growing up.

SSSusan:
See, this is the most legitimate criticism I've heard of the Twilight
books -- that whole "WTF?!? What kind of message are they sending?"
thing. I guess, just be forewarned if you do read them, that this
may bug the crap out of you.

Alla:

See I have very little understanding and patience for the criticism 
of the writer – what kind of message the writer sends, always did. I 
am not disputing  anybody's right to offer such criticism, but I 
usually (for the most part) turn a deaf ear to the criticism of such 
variety.

I mean if one is saying I do not LIKE what I think author is trying 
to say in the story, it is one thing to me, believe me I did not LIKE 
a lot of things in there, but when the criticism is that author sends 
bad message, I always want to say that I do not read fiction for 
messages, I will go read a newspaper, or I can always listen to the 
speeches of the politicians – plenty of messages there.

I guess I just do not think that the messages that author sends 
necessary have something to do with the merits of the story, you know?

Horrible story can send good messages and vice versa IMO. For 
example, I did not watch Sopranos except couple of episodes, so I 
maybe wrong, but I have not noticed that the authors condemn the life 
of organized crime much, but from what I understand it was very well 
done and entertaining show, not my cup of tea, but well done.

However, I certainly watched some other similar shows (there was a 
famous series called Brigada on Russian TV) several years ago for 
example, which literally talked about how great those guys are who 
are killers and do other bad things, and how bad law enforcement is. 
If you ask me the message is horrific, but the show was still very 
good IMO. 

So,  when for example people are saying that story is bad because it 
encourages young girls to get married early and have babies, I always 
want to say to these people that if your teenage daughter will want 
to model her life after the fictional heroine who is in love with 
vampire, I think you have a bigger problem that you may realize.

What I am trying to say is that I am looking the same way at any 
other supposedly harmful messages that story sends. It is fiction, as 
far as I am concerned  teenagers should be able to differentiate 
between fiction and real life.

So, believe me I have no criticism of the story from the angle of 
supposed bad messages it sends. However, HOWEVER, I find the main 
heroine completely, completely, completely unlikable because of what 
she does and yes, that is probably the main reason why I could not 
stomach book 2 and 3 and I do not know if I will be able to.

I mean,  I guess it is related to sending message thing, but I still 
do not think that it is the same thing. Because I am saying that I do 
not LIKE Bella being so hung up on Edward and having nothing else in 
her life to occupy herself with, I am saying that I do not LIKE her 
(from what I understand) wanting to die when he supposedly leaves 
her. It is not a message, it is just I would not want to know Bella 
and be her friend, you know? And then yes, it becomes a pretty 
painful thing to be in her head.

And do not get me started on her – I love Edward, but would not ever 
left poor Jacob go in book 4. I do not know if I can stomach the 
whole thing in book 3, I really don't. I found it pretty disgusting. 
And yes, I know, that was her daughter screaming for Jacob. Ewwwww, 
just ewwwww if you ask me. Jacob choosing a newborn for a future mate 
alone would be enough for me to hate the book 4 for this twist alone, 
you know?

Okay, it got very long, sorry, I just wanted to make it clearer why I 
feel that way.