From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Thu Jan  1 00:38:09 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 00:38:09 -0000
Subject: Happy New Year
Message-ID: <gjh39h+hedb@eGroups.com>

Happy New Year, everybody. I hope you all have more interesting plans
for New Year's Eve than mine--sitting by my dying Christmas tree
drinking eggnog (unspiked) and watching the Times Square ball till I
fall asleep. Well, maybe I'll just read and finish off the fruitcake.
No parties for me this year, but I expect the neighbors to make a bit
of noise at midnight. I'll just quietly sing "Auld Lang Syne" and
remember the people I've loved who are no longer with me.

Carol, hoping that everyone drives carefully or stays warm and snug at
home like me




From YasminOaks at aol.com  Thu Jan  1 00:49:31 2009
From: YasminOaks at aol.com (YasminOaks at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 19:49:31 EST
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Happy New Year
Message-ID: <bc4.3d0bf95d.368d6d1b@aol.com>

 
I wanted to wish everyone a very Happy New Year as well. The girls and I  are 
staying home and just relaxing. We are having egg nog too. :)
I have been rereading the HP books again and am now up to HBP. 
My 13 year old daughter is now obsessed with Twilight. I bought her the  
first book for Christmas and now it is all that she talks about. She ordered the  
next two books in the series with a gift card she received for Christmas. Now  
all she talks about are vampires. Sigh...
Our New Years will be relaxing and I can read my HBP and hear all about how  
handsome vampires are. Why are teenagers so weird?
 
Hugs to All,
 
Cathy who can never get enough HP.
 
In a message dated 12/31/2008 7:38:27 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
justcarol67 at yahoo.com writes:

 
 
 
Happy New Year, everybody. I hope you all have more interesting  plans
for New Year's Eve than mine--sitting by my dying Christmas  tree
drinking eggnog (unspiked) and watching the Times Square ball till  I
fall asleep. Well, maybe I'll just read and finish off the  fruitcake.
No parties for me this year, but I expect the neighbors to make  a bit
of noise at midnight. I'll just quietly sing "Auld Lang Syne"  and
remember the people I've loved who are no longer with me.

Carol,  hoping that everyone drives carefully or stays warm and snug at
home like  me







**************New year...new news.  Be the first to know what is making 
headlines. (http://www.aol.com/?ncid=emlcntaolcom00000026)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From n2fgc at arrl.net  Thu Jan  1 02:26:49 2009
From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force)
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 21:26:49 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Happy New Year
In-Reply-To: <gjh39h+hedb@eGroups.com>
References: <gjh39h+hedb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <1F207E00D85D4F4C959AC6BDF9013E36@musiclee>

Ah, Carol, nothing sadder than a dying Christmas Tree. :-)

Art & I will probably pray in the New Year like we always try to do.  We
stay home, watch bad TV or maybe a good movie, pray in the New Year with a
private little communion service, and that's about it.

Happy New Year, Everyone!!!!

Cheers,
Lee (Listening to the fireworks already going off in Madison, NJ.)




From fragjeff at yahoo.com.mx  Thu Jan  1 02:36:47 2009
From: fragjeff at yahoo.com.mx (francisco arroyo)
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 18:36:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Happy New Year
References: <gjh39h+hedb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <419932.65520.qm@web90407.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

felis ano nuebo tambien y gracias


________________________________
De: Carol <justcarol67 at yahoo.com>
Para: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
Enviado: mi?rcoles, 31 de diciembre, 2008 18:38:09
Asunto: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Happy New Year


Happy New Year, everybody. I hope you all have more interesting plans
for New Year's Eve than mine--sitting by my dying Christmas tree
drinking eggnog (unspiked) and watching the Times Square ball till I
fall asleep. Well, maybe I'll just read and finish off the fruitcake.
No parties for me this year, but I expect the neighbors to make a bit
of noise at midnight. I'll just quietly sing "Auld Lang Syne" and
remember the people I've loved who are no longer with me.

Carol, hoping that everyone drives carefully or stays warm and snug at
home like me




      ?Todo sobre Amor y Sexo!
La gu?a completa para tu vida en Mujer de Hoy.
http://mx.mujer.yahoo.com/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From s_ings at yahoo.com  Thu Jan  1 22:48:46 2009
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 14:48:46 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Happy New Year
In-Reply-To: <gjh39h+hedb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <41665.26216.qm@web63404.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

Carol:

> Happy New Year, everybody. I hope you all have more
> interesting plans
> for New Year's Eve than mine--sitting by my dying
> Christmas tree
> drinking eggnog (unspiked) and watching the Times Square
> ball till I
> fall asleep. Well, maybe I'll just read and finish off
> the fruitcake.
> No parties for me this year, but I expect the neighbors to
> make a bit
> of noise at midnight. I'll just quietly sing "Auld
> Lang Syne" and
> remember the people I've loved who are no longer with
> me.
> 
> Carol, hoping that everyone drives carefully or stays warm
> and snug at
> home like me
> 
Sheryll:

New Year's Eve was quiet at our place. Just us, watching TV, eating a nice dinner. I had to work this morning, so no late night.

Today was a fairly steady day at work, with only one customer who marred the good wishes passing around between staff and customers. Seriously bad customer, really, who made me want to slit my throat. Or at least rethink why I work in retail! 

Still, between fewer hours this holiday season due to a transit strike and missing out on seeing good friends (also due to same strike) and working both Christmas Day and today - it's been a good holiday. 

Wishing you all a very Happy New Year and thanking all the members of the HPFGU groups for making this such a great place to hang out!

Sheryll


      __________________________________________________________________
Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now at
http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com.



From s_ings at yahoo.com  Thu Jan  1 22:51:28 2009
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 14:51:28 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Harry A History
In-Reply-To: <gjcju1+8be4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <258778.90064.qm@web63405.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

>Sheryll wrote:
> > 
> > > How many others here have read this one? I'd
> love to hear 
> > > other opinions of the book!
> > 
> > 
>
Susan replied:
 I just finished reading it. 
> 
> There were some mildly interesting parts - particularly
> about her last 
> interview with JKR and some of the things that JKR said
> about the books.
> 
> I wasn't too interested in countless retellings of how
> many emails, 
> cell phone calls, etc. and how exhausted Melissa was, etc.
> etc. etc.
> 
> There were so many holes in her story -- not a history of
> Harry or 
> Hogwarts, would have been better titled one extraordinary
> fan's 
> extraordinary experiences, or something like that..or how
> Harry Potter 
> changed my life....
> 
Sheryll again:

That's very much how I felt about it! There were, indeed, some interesting bits that I like learning, pretty much the same things you noted as being of interest.

I agree with your thoughts on how it could have been better titled to reflect the contents of the book more accurately. 

Thanks for weighing in!

Sheryll


      __________________________________________________________________
Instant Messaging, free SMS, sharing photos and more... Try the new Yahoo! Canada Messenger at http://ca.beta.messenger.yahoo.com/



From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Fri Jan  2 19:18:24 2009
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2009 19:18:24 -0000
Subject: "Nice and" expression question.
Message-ID: <gjlpa0+bb06@eGroups.com>

Hi guys! I have another question for the English-speaking listees. Is
it true that in the expression "nice and" with the following adjective
(for example, "nice and warm" sweater) the word "nice" doesn't have
it's own meaning, but just intensifies the second adjective? Some
dictionaries explain it like this, but there is no detailed
explanations with many examples, so I'm not sure. 

The "nice and" expression is used a few times in the HP books, for
instance, Ollivander likes to use it while describing wands. So what,
for example, "nice and supple" (Harry's wand) means? Is it "very
supple", or "pleasantly supple", or "supple enough", or something
else? How do you guys understand it when you read it? How would you
translate it into another language? I would appreciate any advice,
off-list is OK. Thanks!


zanooda




From kempermentor at yahoo.com  Fri Jan  2 21:18:14 2009
From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kempermentor)
Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2009 21:18:14 -0000
Subject: "Nice and" expression question.
In-Reply-To: <gjlpa0+bb06@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gjm0am+s0hm@eGroups.com>

> zanooda
> Hi guys! I have another question for the English-speaking listees. Is
> it true that in the expression "nice and" with the following adjective
> (for example, "nice and warm" sweater) the word "nice" doesn't have
> it's own meaning, but just intensifies the second adjective? Some
> dictionaries explain it like this, but there is no detailed
> explanations with many examples, so I'm not sure. 
> 
...

Kemper now:
I interpret it to mean 'perfectly'.  In the sense that Goldilocks
finds Baby Bear's food/belongings, not too one way or the other.
So nice and supple means to me that the wand is at it's most efficient
degree of suppleness.

I don't know when 'nice and' entered the language, but 'nice' used to
mean 'precise' (along with many other meanings apparently) which is
kind of close to perfect.  Kind of.

Not really adding anything.

Kemper




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Fri Jan  2 21:40:59 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2009 21:40:59 -0000
Subject: "Nice and" expression question.
In-Reply-To: <gjlpa0+bb06@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gjm1lb+qk2p@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "zanooda2" <zanooda2 at ...> wrote:
>
> Hi guys! I have another question for the English-speaking listees. Is
> it true that in the expression "nice and" with the following adjective
> (for example, "nice and warm" sweater) the word "nice" doesn't have
> it's own meaning, but just intensifies the second adjective? Some
> dictionaries explain it like this, but there is no detailed
> explanations with many examples, so I'm not sure. 
> 
> The "nice and" expression is used a few times in the HP books, for
> instance, Ollivander likes to use it while describing wands. So what,
> for example, "nice and supple" (Harry's wand) means? Is it "very
> supple", or "pleasantly supple", or "supple enough", or something
> else? How do you guys understand it when you read it? How would you
> translate it into another language? I would appreciate any advice,
> off-list is OK. Thanks!

Geoff:
This is one of those idiomatic [or perhaps idiotic? :-) ] bits of English 
which are so difficult to translate.

For example, if you describe Harry's wand as "nice and supple" this 
would probably need a different translation to a phrase such as "turn 
the control nice and gently" or "push down the accelerator pedal nice 
and steadily".

As a native English speaker, I find it difficult to get a "one size fits all" 
result. However, my trusty Readers' Digest Word Power Dictionary does 
say this under 'nice':

3 (nice and -) satisfactory in terms of the quality described.

Make of that what you will.

Zanooda, I'm afraid that your personal English adviser has possibly hit the 
buffers.
:-(






From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Fri Jan  2 23:32:31 2009
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2009 23:32:31 -0000
Subject: "Nice and" expression question.
In-Reply-To: <gjm1lb+qk2p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gjm86f+dlh4@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister"
<gbannister10 at ...> wrote:

> I'm afraid that your personal English adviser has 
> possibly hit the buffers :-(


zanooda:

Do you mean yourself :-)? If so, you are still good, because thanks to
you I looked up "hit the buffers" :-).








From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Jan  3 02:11:32 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2009 02:11:32 -0000
Subject: "Nice and" expression question.
In-Reply-To: <gjlpa0+bb06@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gjmhgk+8d1d@eGroups.com>

zanooda wrote:
><snip> Is
> it true that in the expression "nice and" with the following
adjective (for example, "nice and warm" sweater) the word "nice"
doesn't have it's own meaning, but just intensifies the second
adjective? Some dictionaries explain it like this, but there is no
detailed explanations with many examples, so I'm not sure. 
<snip>

Carol responds:

I know that several other people have attempted to answer you, but
I'll make my own attempt, anyway.

"Nice," which once meant "precise" (though before that it actually
meant "foolish or silly") has, ironically, lost most of its meaning.
One of Jane Austen's characters complained about its lack of precision
(nice book, nice day, nice walk, nice girls) and called it a word that
could be used for anything.

That said, I think you're right about "nice and" serving merely as an
intensifier. I thought of "agreeably" rather than "pleasantly," but
the meaning is so similar that it doesn't matter much. Still, if you
tell a kid to sit up nice and straight, I doubt he'll consider the
straightness pleasant, however pleasant or agreeable it may be to his
mother.

I think the earliest use of "nice and" was in the phrase "nice and
early." I'd have thought it would be the alliterative "nice and neat."

Anyway, I've deleted your Ollivander example so I can't remember what
it was, but obviously the wand had a trait that Ollivander approved of
or he wouldn't have put "nice and" in front of it.

The only example I can think of where "pleasantly" or "agreeably"
wouldn't fit particularly well as a paraphrase for "nice and" is in
"Turn around nice and slow[ly]," which a policeman might say to a
criminal (or a robber to his victim). Even there, you could argue that
"nice and" means "agreeably"--from the speaker's point of view, anyway.

At any rate, easy, straight, early, neat, and most other adjectives
used with "nice and" are--or can be--viewed as describing "nice"
(pleasant or agreeable) traits.

That's nice, isn't it?

Carol, wishing everyone a nice night/day ;-)






From jnoyl at aim.com  Sat Jan  3 02:14:20 2009
From: jnoyl at aim.com (JLyon)
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 19:14:20 -0700
Subject: "Nice and" expression question.
Message-ID: <4A68D9C7-C495-4CCD-AB8D-D94D96328BFD@aim.com>

My take is that it is very idiomatic.
A sweater/jumper that is nice and warm means that it feels nice  
against the skin and keeps one warm. It also implies that one doesn't  
get so hot in it that one wants to rip the damn thing off to cool  
down. It is warm and it is nice.
Nice and supple implies that it not only is supple but also feels  
nice. It is not a limp piece of cooked pasta, but it is responsive to  
one's actions.
A woman who is nice and plumb is over-weight, but she is still  
pleasing to look at and is not grossly fat. One would say "she could  
lose weight, but I wouldn't bring it up..."
Thus, the "nice and" implies that it not only has a certain  
characteristic, but it is nice/pleasurable/not carried to excess/ 
pleasing/precise.



From willsonkmom at msn.com  Sat Jan  3 04:15:21 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2009 04:15:21 -0000
Subject: "Nice and" expression question.
In-Reply-To: <gjlpa0+bb06@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gjmoop+3lib@eGroups.com>

 "zanooda2"  wrote:
snip 
> The "nice and" expression is used a few times in the HP books, for
> instance, Ollivander likes to use it while describing wands. So 
what,
> for example, "nice and supple" (Harry's wand) means? Is it "very
> supple", or "pleasantly supple", or "supple enough", or something
> else? How do you guys understand it when you read it? How would you
> translate it into another language? I would appreciate any advice,
> off-list is OK. Thanks!


Potioncat:
I agree with Geoff and Carol. (maybe others too, but I remember 
theirs)

Depending on the context around Ollivander's comment, I'd go with 
very supple or pleasantly supple. Better, keep it simple and just 
translate as supple. I think trying to translate "nice and..." too 
closely could make the translation ackward.

I can only think of positive traits associated with "nice and..." 
while "good and..." can be used to intensify negitive trais. it's 
possible to be "good and mad" or "good and mean" or "good and drunk" 
which would be very mad or very mean or very drunk.

(This may be a red-neck thing)

Potioncat, wondering why the theme song to the "Beverly Hillbillies" 
is running through her head. It's good and loud, too.




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Sat Jan  3 05:54:21 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2009 05:54:21 -0000
Subject: Nobel Son
Message-ID: <gjmuid+ojnr@eGroups.com>

Did anyone see "Nobel Son"? It opened here one weekend and was gone 
without a trace by the next weekend. I had a chance to see it, and 
expected to go later. Alas. However, I saw one review that made me 
think it may have been beyond my gore/violence threshold. Just 
wondering what others thought.

Potioncat




From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Sat Jan  3 08:41:16 2009
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2009 08:41:16 -0000
Subject: "Nice and" expression question.
In-Reply-To: <gjlpa0+bb06@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gjn8bc+j90q@eGroups.com>

---  "zanooda2" <zanooda2 at ...> wrote:
>
> ... Is it true that in the expression "nice and" with the 
> following adjective (for example, "nice and warm" sweater) the
> word "nice" doesn't have it's own meaning, but just intensifies
> the second adjective? Some dictionaries explain it like this, 
> ...
> 
> The "nice and" expression is used ... in the HP books, for 
> instance, Ollivander likes to use it while describing wands. 
> So what, for example, "nice and supple" (Harry's wand) means? 
> ...
> 
> 
> zanooda
>

bboyminn:

I think you understand the meaning perfectly. We can debate the
origins and meanings of the word 'nice', but I think in this 
case, it is, as you say, merely an intensifier or modifier. 

In your first example, of a sweater described as 'nice and warm'.
If we break it apart, we see a 'nice sweater' and a 'warm 
sweater'. In this case, a nice sweater could be 'nice' by any
one of several measure. It could be nice and expensive. It
could be nice and comfortable. It could simply appear pleasing
to the fashionable eye. 

But in the context, of 'nice and warm', I don't think 'nice'
has any of those meanings. It just expands and intensifies the
description. 

Again, if we use Ollivander's 'nice and supple', it simply means
supple in a way that is pleasing to the user. But, we have to 
consider that in the context of the story, Mr. Ollivander has
a preference for supple wands, so, of course, he would think 
them 'nice'. But, again, I think he is just adding emphasis. 
He is expanding and intensifying the value of suppleness.

While Ollivander find his wands 'nice and supple', I suspect
Gregorovich find those wands unpleasantly bendy. But that's
another discussion.

Steve/bluewizard 




From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Sat Jan  3 18:32:56 2009
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2009 18:32:56 -0000
Subject: "Nice and" expression question.
In-Reply-To: <gjn8bc+j90q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gjob0o+pepc@eGroups.com>

Thank you for answering, everyone :-). I'm so happy that there was no
disagreement this time :-). I just want to clarify one more thing. Did
 I understand it correctly from your posts that if someone uses "nice
and", he means something positive (from his point of view)? For
instance, if in a hot day someone is offered a cold drink, he can call
it "nice and cold", because he wants it to be cold in this weather.
However, if in the morning he is given a cup of cold coffee instead of
hot, he won't call it "nice and cold". Do I understand you correctly?
A drink in hot weather feels nice *because* it is cold, right?


zanooda, who was sure that "pleasantly" and "agreeably" were synonyms ... 




From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Sat Jan  3 18:51:23 2009
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2009 18:51:23 -0000
Subject: "Nice and" expression question.
In-Reply-To: <gjn8bc+j90q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gjoc3b+1qdl@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <bboyminn at ...> wrote:


> In your first example, of a sweater described as 'nice and warm'.
> If we break it apart, we see a 'nice sweater' and a 'warm 
> sweater'. In this case, a nice sweater could be 'nice' by any
> one of several measure. It could be nice and expensive. It
> could be nice and comfortable. It could simply appear pleasing
> to the fashionable eye. 

> But in the context, of 'nice and warm', I don't think 'nice'
> has any of those meanings. It just expands and intensifies the
> description. 


zanooda:

But that's exactly the point :-). Most translators don't seem to know
about "nice and", so when the twins say their mother's sweaters are
"nice and warm", they usually translate it as "beautiful and warm".


> Steve wrote:

> While Ollivander find his wands 'nice and supple', I suspect
> Gregorovich find those wands unpleasantly bendy. But that's
> another discussion.

zanooda:

Yeah, Ollivander doesn't call Krum's wand "nice and rigid", he calls
it "quite rigid" :-). BTW, Olly's description of wands is difficult to
translate, because he uses synonyms all the time, and other languages
may not have enough synonyms :-). For instance, "supple", "flexible"
and "pliable" basically mean the same thing, right? And so do "whippy"
and "swishy" :-).




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Jan  3 18:53:20 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2009 18:53:20 -0000
Subject: "Nice and" expression question.
In-Reply-To: <gjob0o+pepc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gjoc70+v1bb@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "zanooda2" <zanooda2 at ...> wrote:
>
> Thank you for answering, everyone :-). I'm so happy that there was no
> disagreement this time :-). I just want to clarify one more thing. Did
>  I understand it correctly from your posts that if someone uses "nice
> and", he means something positive (from his point of view)? For
> instance, if in a hot day someone is offered a cold drink, he can call
> it "nice and cold", because he wants it to be cold in this weather.
> However, if in the morning he is given a cup of cold coffee instead
of hot, he won't call it "nice and cold". Do I understand you correctly?
> A drink in hot weather feels nice *because* it is cold, right?
> 
> 
> zanooda, who was sure that "pleasantly" and "agreeably" were
synonyms ...
>
Carol responds:

Right. You'd want a drink that's "nice and cold" (or cool) in summer
and one that's "nice and hot" in winter.

As for "agreeably" and "pleasantly," yes, they're synonyms, but
there's a shade of difference in meaning or we wouldn't need both of
them. (Pleasant is, well, a little "nicer"!) But the difference isn't
worth worrying about, especially for the purpose of translating an idiom.

By the way, I love your posts on the difficulties of translation. It's
funny (in the sense of odd, not amusing) how much we take language for
granted and how little we think about what it means as we read it
unless we encounter an unfamiliar term--an American reader stumbling
over British slang, fo example. But idioms, in most cases, just slide
right by.

By, the way, the "and" isn't stated if "nice" comes before the noun:
it's "a nice, supple wand"; "a nice, hot drink"; "a nice, easy
crossword puzzle"; etc. So the wand is "nice" (a good wand) *because*
it's supple, and so forth.

Carol, now wanting a nice cup of hot chocolate (which is "nice" for
more reasons than one) 

Carol, trying to keep things nice and simple




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Jan  3 18:56:55 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2009 18:56:55 -0000
Subject: "Nice and" expression question.
In-Reply-To: <gjoc70+v1bb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gjocdn+hmtu@eGroups.com>

Carol earlier:
> Carol, now wanting a nice cup of hot chocolate (which is "nice" for
more reasons than one) 
> 
> Carol, trying to keep things nice and simple

Carol, who counts about as well as JKR!





From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Sat Jan  3 23:10:06 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2009 23:10:06 -0000
Subject: "Nice and" expression question.
In-Reply-To: <gjoc70+v1bb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gjor8e+qnp9@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:
Carol: 

> By, the way, the "and" isn't stated if "nice" comes before the noun:
> it's "a nice, supple wand"; "a nice, hot drink"; "a nice, easy
> crossword puzzle"; etc. So the wand is "nice" (a good wand) *because*
> it's supple, and so forth.

Geoff:
It isn't stated because the "nice and x" structure doesn't necessarily 
carry the same meaning and hence correspond exactly to "nice, x".

For example, to say 'the next move is to insert the power unit nice and 
gently" isn't the same as "the insertion of the power unit is a nice, gentle 
move."

We've already suggested that the "nice and x" format is an idiomatic 
construct which can be difficult to render in translation.




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Sat Jan  3 23:16:08 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2009 23:16:08 -0000
Subject: "Nice and" expression question.
In-Reply-To: <gjob0o+pepc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gjorjo+5f8s@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "zanooda2" <zanooda2 at ...> wrote:
>
> Thank you for answering, everyone :-). I'm so happy that there was no
> disagreement this time :-). I just want to clarify one more thing. Did
>  I understand it correctly from your posts that if someone uses "nice
> and", he means something positive (from his point of view)? F

Geoff:
Unless it is one of those cases where a phrase is used ironically to 
indicate the opposite. As examples, if someone does something silly 
or stupid and another person says "That was very clever wasn't it?"; 
something goes wrong with a plan or event and the comment is "Great."

An example using our "nice and x" might be if you are rude or angry with 
another person and someone makes the comment "that was nice and polite 
wasn't it?" or "that was nice and friendly!", the irony often being conveyed 
by the tone of voice in which it is said.




From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Sun Jan  4 02:12:14 2009
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2009 02:12:14 -0000
Subject: "Nice and" expression question.
In-Reply-To: <gjob0o+pepc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gjp5tu+gt0u@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "zanooda2" <zanooda2 at ...> wrote:
>
> Thank you for answering, everyone :-). I'm so happy that there was no
> disagreement this time :-). I just want to clarify one more thing. Did
>  I understand it correctly from your posts that if someone uses "nice
> and", he means something positive (from his point of view)? For
> instance, if in a hot day someone is offered a cold drink, he can call
> it "nice and cold", because he wants it to be cold in this weather.
> However, if in the morning he is given a cup of cold coffee instead of
> hot, he won't call it "nice and cold". Do I understand you correctly?
> A drink in hot weather feels nice *because* it is cold, right?


Magpie:
Yup. Unless the person was being sarcastic as in: "Oh good. Nice and 
cold." to a cold cup of coffee on a cold morning. But yes, the "nice" 
always indicates the person thinks it's a good thing that it is 
whatever. When I read this I thought of a movie of Dracula where 
Renfield is describing a fly he's about to eat: nice and fat and juicy.

Gross to us, but very good to him.

-m




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sun Jan  4 03:26:06 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2009 03:26:06 -0000
Subject: "Nice and" expression question.
In-Reply-To: <gjor8e+qnp9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gjpa8e+o6hj@eGroups.com>

Carol earlier: 
> 
> > By, the way, the "and" isn't stated if "nice" comes before the noun:
> > it's "a nice, supple wand"; "a nice, hot drink"; "a nice, easy
crossword puzzle"; etc. So the wand is "nice" (a good wand) *because*
> it's supple, and so forth.
> 
> Geoff:
> It isn't stated because the "nice and x" structure doesn't
necessarily carry the same meaning and hence correspond exactly to
"nice, x".
> 
> For example, to say 'the next move is to insert the power unit nice
and gently" isn't the same as "the insertion of the power unit is a
nice, gentle move."
> 
> We've already suggested that the "nice and x" format is an idiomatic
construct which can be difficult to render in translation.
>
Carol responds:

I'd say that "nice, x" is also idiomatic, with the "nice" having
approximately the same weight and meaning (virtually none) in both
constructions. I see no difference between "a nice, hot drink" and a
drink that's "nice and hot." YMMV.

Carol, well aware that the point is the difficulty of translating the
idiomatic phrase




From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Sun Jan  4 04:32:39 2009
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2009 04:32:39 -0000
Subject: "Nice and" expression question.
In-Reply-To: <gjorjo+5f8s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gjpe57+3tg1@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister"
<gbannister10 at ...> wrote:

> Unless it is one of those cases where a phrase is used ironically to 
> indicate the opposite. 

> Magpie:

> Yup. Unless the person was being sarcastic 


zanooda:

Got it :-)! Thanks!





From kempermentor at yahoo.com  Sun Jan  4 05:19:30 2009
From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kempermentor)
Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2009 05:19:30 -0000
Subject: "Nice and" expression question.
In-Reply-To: <gjm1lb+qk2p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gjpgt2+2355@eGroups.com>

> Geoff:
> This is one of those idiomatic [or perhaps idiotic? :-) ] bits of
English which are so difficult to translate.
> 
> For example, if you describe Harry's wand as "nice and supple" this 
> would probably need a different translation to a phrase such as
"turn the control nice and gently" or "push down the accelerator pedal
nice and steadily".

Kemper now:
I'm just thinking off the top of my head (with a head cold)... how about:
'nice and adjective' describes, essentially, the pure awesomeness of
the object/feeling.  While,
'nice and adverb' describes how an action should be done with
caution/care.

Kemper feeling nice and sweet about how nice and easy he thought about
'nice and x'... though he's prolly good and wrong





From HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com  Sun Jan  4 18:42:01 2009
From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com (HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 4 Jan 2009 18:42:01 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 1/4/2009, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1231094521.9.13303.m36@yahoogroups.com>

Reminder from: HPFGU-OTChatter Yahoo! Group
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/cal

Weekly Chat
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1:00 pm - 2:00 pm
(This event repeats every week.)
Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Notes:
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To get to the HPfGU room follow this link:
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Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want
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From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sun Jan  4 19:39:50 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2009 19:39:50 -0000
Subject: "Nice and" expression question.
In-Reply-To: <gjpgt2+2355@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gjr3a6+m5cl@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "kempermentor"
<kempermentor at ...> wrote:
>
> > Geoff:
> > This is one of those idiomatic [or perhaps idiotic? :-) ] bits of
> English which are so difficult to translate.
> > 
> > For example, if you describe Harry's wand as "nice and supple" this 
> > would probably need a different translation to a phrase such as
> "turn the control nice and gently" or "push down the accelerator pedal
> nice and steadily".
> 
> Kemper now:
> I'm just thinking off the top of my head (with a head cold)... how
about:
> 'nice and adjective' describes, essentially, the pure awesomeness of
> the object/feeling.  While,
> 'nice and adverb' describes how an action should be done with
> caution/care.
> 
> Kemper feeling nice and sweet about how nice and easy he thought about
> 'nice and x'... though he's prolly good and wrong
>
Carol responds:

Or how about "nice and [adjective serving as adverb]"? That would
include "nice and slow" meaning "nice and slowly" and "nice and easy,"
with "easy" pretending to be an adverb, as in "taking it nice and
easy," as opposed to "easu" as an adjective as in a puzzle that's
"nice and easy" (indistinguishable from "a nice, easy" puzzle).

Of course, to shift from "nice" for the moment, "easy" posing as an
adverb has a different meaning not difficult has a different meaning
from "easy" in "taking it easy" (relaxing). It's more like the
adjective "easy" in "easy ice" (a term that I had to define for a
British flight attendant on my flight to England in 1995--she'd never
heard of it) or "over easy" (another term possibly unfamiliar to
Brits, who, as I understand it, don't flip their fried eggs over).
"Easy" in that sense would mean lightly done on the second side,
possibly related to the little bit of ice in "easy ice." There's also
"easy does it," meaning doing something slowly and carefully, a little
bit at a time. (Sorry for the tangent, but I'm fascinated by English
idioms and thinking about "nice and easy" led to this train of thought.)

To return to "nice," "nice and easy" used as an adverb (as in "taking
it nice and easy" is one example of a "nice and" idiom that isn't the
same as its "nice, [adjective]" equivalent. But "nice and easy" used
as an adjective ("that cookie recipe was nice and easy") is, IMO, no
different from the form "nice, easy" ("a nice, easy cookie recipe").
So maybe Kemper is onto something, but it's not a complete explanation.

In the case of, say, a wand that's "nice and supple," we're dealing
with adjectives describing the noun "wand," and the meaning is
essentially the same as "a nice, supple wand."

Which returns us to the vexed question of what that vague, nearly
all-purpose adjective "nice" means. Sarcasm aside, "nice" means
vaguely pleasant or agreeable, but, as we've already established, the
agreeableness or pleasantness, whether in "nice and [adjective] or
"nice, [adjective] is relative and depends on the other adjective and
the situation. (Suppleness, for example, isn't always a desirable
quality. I don't want a "nice, supple" file cabinet--or a file cabinet
that's "nice and supple"--the same concept in a different position in
the sentence.)

So, how to translate the phrase? We're back to "agreeably supple,"
"pleasantly supple," possibly "nicely supple"(?) whether the phrase is
"nice, supple" or "nice and supple." "Nice" is posing as an adverb and
modifying the adjective either way. Ditto for "nice and warm/nice,
warm." (I might translate "nice and warm" as "warm and cozy,"
suggesting that the "nice" relates to comfort, not attractiveness, if
that works.)

"Nice and easy" or other phrases in which *both* terms are (or can be)
idiomatic or the second adjective is also posing as an adverb are
trickier.

Carol, looking forward to more posts on idioms




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sun Jan  4 19:53:37 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2009 19:53:37 -0000
Subject: Amusingly appropriate typo
Message-ID: <gjr441+ods5@eGroups.com>

I came across a typo that I thought was amusing yet oddly apropos this
morning while I was wondering about the snow level in Flagstaff. For
those who aren't familiar with Flagstaff, the town I grew up in but
haven't lived in since I was in my early twenties, it's a smallish
city at the foot of the San Francisco Peaks in Northern Arizona in
Ponderosa Pine country (not at all what most people think of when they
picture Arizona). The elevation is nearly 7,000 feet, which explains
why Flagstaff gets lots of snow. (Tucson, in contrast, is about 2,500
and all we're getting is a misty rain though the Catalina Mountains
are swathed in clouds, so I should see snow on them when the sky clears.)

Here's the sentence with the typo, from an online article in the East
Valley Tribune ("Valley" meaning Valley of the Sun, aka metropolitan
Phoenix): "As Wing Mountain opens in Flagstaff Saturday officials are
requesting that visitors stick to the appropriate slops." I guess
they're restricted to the slush on the streets rather than the
sledding, toboggan and ski slopes where the snow hasn't yet melted!

Carol, glad she's not out on the "slops"






From n2fgc at arrl.net  Sun Jan  4 20:52:11 2009
From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force)
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2009 15:52:11 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Amusingly appropriate typo
In-Reply-To: <gjr441+ods5@eGroups.com>
References: <gjr441+ods5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <799462A8F09046B58DCA8541CDBB5906@musiclee>

[Carol]:
| Valley Tribune ("Valley" meaning Valley of the Sun, aka metropolitan
| Phoenix): "As Wing Mountain opens in Flagstaff Saturday officials are
| requesting that visitors stick to the appropriate slops."

[Lee]:
I am amazed and know not what to say! :-)

One would think that proofreading has become a lost art.  Reminds me of a
lovely error in a memo sent out by our department head when I worked for
AT&T Bell Labs.  Now, remember, the theme of the moment was "Quality."  And
so, the memo subject line was something like, "Upcoming Qualty Seminar."
<Sigh>  And this memo went out to over 200 people. <Groan.>  Yet, if I
handed in work like that I would be reprimanded.

Oh, well... Let's hope there's qualty in them slops. :-)

Cheers,

Lee :-)

Do not walk behind me,    | Lee Storm
I may not care to lead;   | N2FGC
Do not walk before me,    | n2fgc at arrl.net (or)
I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at optonline.net
Walk beside me, and be my friend.




From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Jan  4 21:31:13 2009
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2009 21:31:13 -0000
Subject: Speaking of 'Qualty'
In-Reply-To: <799462A8F09046B58DCA8541CDBB5906@musiclee>
Message-ID: <gjr9r1+ri8p@eGroups.com>

Lee Storm wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/38363>:

<< Reminds me of a lovely error in a memo sent out by our department
head when I worked for AT&T Bell Labs.  (snip)  so, the memo subject
line was something like, "Upcoming Qualty Seminar." >>

Tom Digby wrote in Silicon Soapware #172 << There's a fast-food place
I go to fairly often that has a big sign up near the counter about how
Quality is a high priority with them.  It's their "Secret Ingredient".
There are several paragraphs of text about how much they care and how
well they treat their customers and how they'll make it right if
something's wrong, and so on.

Since this is a fast-food chain, most of the sign is silkscreened or
whatever the standard process for printing mass-produced signs is
nowadays.

But the word "Quality" is in individual glued-on plastic letters,
presumably for emphasis.

Or at least it was.  The "y" had been missing for weeks.  Maybe it
fell off, or maybe some impatient rush-hour customer with nothing
better to do while standing in line kind of helped it along, but be
the causes as they may, the sign had long been proclaiming that their
Secret Ingredient was "Qualit".  Then the "t" went the way of the "y"
and the Secret Ingredient became "Quali".

It had been that way for maybe a month.  As far as I could tell nobody
on the staff ever noticed.  Or if they did, nobody did anything about it.

Today things were different.  The "i" and "l" have swapped places, so
the Secret Ingredient is now "Quail".  Will it get noticed now?

FOLLOW-UP: The above was written in early December.  As of this
morning (December 29) the sign still said their Secret Ingredient was
"Quail".

How much longer will it remain that way? >>

<http://www.plergb.com/Mail_Lists/Silicon_Soapware_Zine-Pages.html>





From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Jan  4 21:38:57 2009
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2009 21:38:57 -0000
Subject: "Nice and" expression question.
In-Reply-To: <gjm1lb+qk2p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gjra9h+n8vo@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister"
<gbannister10 at ...> wrote:
 
<< For example, if you describe Harry's wand as "nice and supple" this
would probably need a different translation to a phrase such as "turn
the control nice and gently" or "push down the accelerator pedal nice
and steadily". (snip) my trusty Readers' Digest Word Power Dictionary
does say this under 'nice': "3 (nice and -) satisfactory in terms of
the quality described." >>

I think everyone in this discussion agrees what 'nice and' means:
satifactorialy (per Readers' Digest), 'just right', agreeably ... but
no one offered the word 'correctly' yet. This wand is correctly
supple. This sweater is correctly warm. Turn the control correctly
gently."  I guess in English it would sound slightly less unnatural to
say This wand is the correct amount of supple, this sweater is the
correct amount of warm, turn the control the correct amount of gently. 




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Sun Jan  4 23:21:47 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2009 23:21:47 -0000
Subject: "Nice and" expression question.
In-Reply-To: <gjra9h+n8vo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gjrgab+a2bg@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" <catlady at ...> 
wrote:
>
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister"
> <gbannister10@> wrote:
>  
> << For example, if you describe Harry's wand as "nice and supple" this
> would probably need a different translation to a phrase such as "turn
> the control nice and gently" or "push down the accelerator pedal nice
> and steadily". (snip) my trusty Readers' Digest Word Power Dictionary
> does say this under 'nice': "3 (nice and -) satisfactory in terms of
> the quality described." >>
> 
> I think everyone in this discussion agrees what 'nice and' means:
> satifactorialy (per Readers' Digest), 'just right', agreeably ... but
> no one offered the word 'correctly' yet. This wand is correctly
> supple. This sweater is correctly warm. Turn the control correctly
> gently."  I guess in English it would sound slightly less unnatural to
> say This wand is the correct amount of supple, this sweater is the
> correct amount of warm, turn the control the correct amount of gently.

Geoff:
I don't think I would ever describe something as "correctly warm" 
or "satisfactorily warm" in that context. I doubt whether the average UK 
English speaker would try to express it in any other way which is why I 
think any attempt to translate it as it stands would not work. You might 
try "supple enough" or "warm enough"but I think the idiomatic use just 
wouldn't transfer across - like idioms in any language.






From md at exit-reality.com  Sun Jan  4 23:44:42 2009
From: md at exit-reality.com (Cabal)
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2009 18:44:42 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: "Nice and" expression question.
In-Reply-To: <gjrgab+a2bg@eGroups.com>
References: <gjra9h+n8vo@eGroups.com> <gjrgab+a2bg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <002a01c96ec6$6b0bb880$41232980$@com>



-----Original Message-----
From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
[mailto:HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Geoff Bannister
Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2009 6:22 PM
To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: "Nice and" expression question.

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)"
<catlady at ...> 
wrote:
>
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister"
> <gbannister10@> wrote:
>  
> << For example, if you describe Harry's wand as "nice and supple" this
> would probably need a different translation to a phrase such as "turn
> the control nice and gently" or "push down the accelerator pedal nice
> and steadily". (snip) my trusty Readers' Digest Word Power Dictionary
> does say this under 'nice': "3 (nice and -) satisfactory in terms of
> the quality described." >>
> 

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Translation to what? English? I got lost in this.

But it wasn't "Used the wand nice and supple" it was that the wand is "nice
and supple" so "supple is able to mold or be compliant -- which is exactly
what a wand should do, mold and be compliant to the wizard it chooses.

md




From bhobbs36 at verizon.net  Sun Jan  4 23:54:32 2009
From: bhobbs36 at verizon.net (Belinda)
Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2009 23:54:32 -0000
Subject: Speaking of 'Qualty'
In-Reply-To: <gjr9r1+ri8p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gjri7o+bm5n@eGroups.com>

LOL
That is hilarious!! and it reminds me of my experience passing the
local hardware store on my to work everyday. One day this fall it read:

PA NT SALE  (Did I mention it's a hardware store?).  Apparently the
'I' went missing from their paint sale.

In early Dec as I drove by the glass was propped up with a shovel,
obviously a work in progress, but the worker had wandered off leaving
it to read:

CHRISTMAS SALE
ROCK S

(guess they were going to advertise the new shipment of rock salt
after the ice storm)

The week before Christmas I drove by it said:

CHRISTMAS SALE
   0% OFF 

the next day a 3 appeared before the zero.
I need to start taking pictures of this sign!





From willsonkmom at msn.com  Mon Jan  5 03:58:40 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 03:58:40 -0000
Subject: How's that again? Re: Speaking of 'Qualty'
In-Reply-To: <gjri7o+bm5n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gjs0hg+4jo0@eGroups.com>

 "Belinda"  wrote:
>
> LOL
> That is hilarious!! and it reminds me of my experience passing the
> local hardware store on my to work everyday. 

Potioncat:
This wasn't a spelling error, but rather juxtaposition changing the 
intended meaning.

We agreed to get a dog last spring and haven't found one yet. I've been 
pouring over rescue web sites and finally resorted to the Pets section 
of the newspaper.

I came across this add for puppies just before Christmas. 
"Male beagle. Partially housebroken. Ready to go under tree."

I couldn't stop laughing.




From kempermentor at yahoo.com  Mon Jan  5 04:14:04 2009
From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kempermentor)
Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 04:14:04 -0000
Subject: "Nice and" expression question.
In-Reply-To: <gjra9h+n8vo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gjs1ec+hkec@eGroups.com>


> Catlady:
> I think everyone in this discussion agrees what 'nice and' means:
> satifactorialy (per Readers' Digest), 'just right', agreeably ... but
> no one offered the word 'correctly' yet. This wand is correctly
> supple. This sweater is correctly warm. Turn the control correctly
> gently."  I guess in English it would sound slightly less unnatural to
> say This wand is the correct amount of supple, this sweater is the
> correct amount of warm, turn the control the correct amount of gently.

Kemper now:
A correctly supple wand sounds objective when the matter of suppleness
seems a subjective preference.  

A sweater might be nice and warm for my sister but too hot for my
brother (given that they are the same size).

A correctly adjusted temperature control is more objective.  The
thermostat is nice and set at 68*.

Kemper






From willsonkmom at msn.com  Mon Jan  5 04:27:50 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 04:27:50 -0000
Subject: "Nice and" expression question.
In-Reply-To: <gjs1ec+hkec@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gjs286+kla5@eGroups.com>


Kemper: 
> A correctly adjusted temperature control is more objective.  The
> thermostat is nice and set at 68*.


Potioncat:
That wording sounds a bit ackward to me, but "The temperture is nice 
and warm at 68*" sounds very reasonable.






From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Mon Jan  5 07:39:21 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 07:39:21 -0000
Subject: "Nice and" expression question.
In-Reply-To: <002a01c96ec6$6b0bb880$41232980$@com>
Message-ID: <gjsdf9+fnu8@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Cabal" <md at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Geoff Bannister
> Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2009 6:22 PM
> To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: "Nice and" expression question.
> 
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)"
> <catlady@> 
> wrote:
> >
> > --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister"
> > <gbannister10@> wrote:
> >  
> > << For example, if you describe Harry's wand as "nice and supple" this
> > would probably need a different translation to a phrase such as "turn
> > the control nice and gently" or "push down the accelerator pedal nice
> > and steadily". (snip) my trusty Readers' Digest Word Power Dictionary
> > does say this under 'nice': "3 (nice and -) satisfactory in terms of
> > the quality described." >>
> > 
> 
> :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Cabal:
> Translation to what? English? I got lost in this.

Geoff:
Zanooda, whom I believe is not a native English speaker, raised 
the item in the context of translating the phrase(s) into a foreign 
language.








From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Mon Jan  5 17:33:19 2009
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 17:33:19 -0000
Subject: "Nice and" expression question.
In-Reply-To: <gjrgab+a2bg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gjtg8v+4jl5@eGroups.com>

Catlady:
> > I think everyone in this discussion agrees what 'nice and' means:
> > satifactorialy (per Readers' Digest), 'just right', agreeably ... 
but
> > no one offered the word 'correctly' yet. This wand is correctly
> > supple. This sweater is correctly warm. Turn the control correctly
> > gently."  I guess in English it would sound slightly less 
unnatural to
> > say This wand is the correct amount of supple, this sweater is the
> > correct amount of warm, turn the control the correct amount of 
gently.
> 
> Geoff:
> I don't think I would ever describe something as "correctly warm" 
> or "satisfactorily warm" in that context. I doubt whether the 
average UK 
> English speaker would try to express it in any other way which is 
why I 
> think any attempt to translate it as it stands would not work. You 
might 
> try "supple enough" or "warm enough"but I think the idiomatic use 
just 
> wouldn't transfer across - like idioms in any language.

Magpie:
I think the "correctly" version would be more like "warm--as it 
should be." Like the implication is that it's warm the way all good 
sweaters should be. Of course that might be subjective, but I'm sure 
all of us at some time have had somebody give us something 
that's "nice and X" as if "X" is a good thing when we don't think it 
is.

-m





From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Mon Jan  5 19:04:33 2009
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 19:04:33 -0000
Subject: Nobel Son
In-Reply-To: <gjmuid+ojnr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gjtlk1+2g48@eGroups.com>

Potioncat:
> Did anyone see "Nobel Son"? It opened here one weekend and was gone 
> without a trace by the next weekend. I had a chance to see it, and 
> expected to go later. Alas. However, I saw one review that made me 
> think it may have been beyond my gore/violence threshold. Just 
> wondering what others thought.
> 

SSSusan:
You *know* I've been waiting to see this one, Potioncat.  So far it's 
not yet come to my area.  From all I've seen about the film, it's one 
of those hard-to-class ones, with a lot of dark humor, along with some 
suspense and sex.  I didn't realize it might also be gory or violent.  
Still, with Mr. Rickman starring, I plan to see it no matter what.  I 
mean, I endured the gore of Sweeney Todd so I could see him as Judge 
Turpin!

Siriusly Snapey Susan, off to check the movie listings




From s_ings at yahoo.com  Mon Jan  5 19:28:01 2009
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 11:28:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Nobel Son
In-Reply-To: <gjtlk1+2g48@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <961752.2481.qm@web63405.mail.re1.yahoo.com>



Join the fun at Convention Alley 2008


> Potioncat:
> > Did anyone see "Nobel Son"? It opened here
> one weekend and was gone 
> > without a trace by the next weekend. I had a chance to
> see it, and 
> > expected to go later. Alas. However, I saw one review
> that made me 
> > think it may have been beyond my gore/violence
> threshold. Just 
> > wondering what others thought.
> > 
> 
> SSSusan:
> You *know* I've been waiting to see this one,
> Potioncat.  So far it's 
> not yet come to my area.  From all I've seen about the
> film, it's one 
> of those hard-to-class ones, with a lot of dark humor,
> along with some 
> suspense and sex.  I didn't realize it might also be
> gory or violent.  
> Still, with Mr. Rickman starring, I plan to see it no
> matter what.  I 
> mean, I endured the gore of Sweeney Todd so I could see him
> as Judge 
> Turpin!
> 
> Siriusly Snapey Susan, off to check the movie listings
> 
Sheryll:

I've been wanting to see this as well. I've just checked the movies listings for here and nothing. Our independent cinema has it's listing up through to the end of next month snd it's not there either. 

Then again, we *are* still in the midst of a transit strike and I'd have to cab to see a movie. Maybe it's a good thing it isn't playing here. I don't think I could justify $30 in cab fare (there and back) on top of the cost of a movie ticket, even if it is an Alan Rickman film.

Sheryll, tired of imposing on family and friends for rides to work and back


      __________________________________________________________________
Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers and share what you know at http://ca.answers.yahoo.com



From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Mon Jan  5 19:42:09 2009
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 19:42:09 -0000
Subject: Nobel Son
In-Reply-To: <961752.2481.qm@web63405.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <gjtnqh+2evu@eGroups.com>

SSSusan:
> > You *know* I've been waiting to see this one,
> > Potioncat.  So far it's  not yet come to my area.  
> > 
> > Siriusly Snapey Susan, off to check the movie listings

Sheryll:
> 
> I've been wanting to see this as well. I've just checked the movies 
> listings for here and nothing. Our independent cinema has it's 
> listing up through to the end of next month snd it's not there 
> either. 


SSSusan:
I just checked Yahoo!Movies, and if they're right, this isn't playing 
in Indy, nor even in Chicago!  What's up with that??  

Sorry the transit strike is still happening, Sheryll.  Not a fun way 
to start the new year. :(

Siriusly Snapey Susan, 
who's beginning to feel Siriusly annoyed about the lack of screenings





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon Jan  5 23:56:29 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 23:56:29 -0000
Subject: "Nice and" expression question.
In-Reply-To: <gjs286+kla5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gju6nd+1j94@eGroups.com>

Kemper earlier: 
> > A correctly adjusted temperature control is more objective.  The
thermostat is nice and set at 68*.
> 
> 
> Potioncat:
> That wording sounds a bit ackward to me, but "The temperture is nice
 and warm at 68*" sounds very reasonable.
>
Carol responds:
Except that a 68-degree house isn't nice and warm! Or is it, if you
live  in a cold climate? (BTW, I agree that Kemper's wording sounds
awkward. "Nice and set" combines combines an adjective and a past
participle. I would say, "The thermostat is set at a cool 68 degrees"
or "a nice, warm 72 degrees" if I had any say in the matter! Or "a
nice, cool 72 degrees" in summer.)

Carol, taking down the last of her Christmas decorations on this
Twelfth Day of Christmas and wondering whether anyone still celebrates
Twelfth Night




From s_ings at yahoo.com  Tue Jan  6 02:36:27 2009
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 18:36:27 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Happy Birthday, Ms Tattersal!
Message-ID: <203433.46622.qm@web63407.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

*pulls down the cobwebs, dusts the furniture and plumps the pillows on the comfy chairs in the corner*

A new year and a new start to birthday greetings! I hope you're not too partied out from all the holiday gatherings to enjoy some festivities in our newly decorated party room. Yea, I know, no such thing as too many parties. <vbg>

Starting off this year's celebrations is a gathering for our first birthday honouree of 2009 - Ms Tattersall. Birthday greetings can be sent care of this list or directly to: cwood at tattersallpub.com

Pull up your favourite chair or take a turn on the dance floor. Help yourself to nibblies and drinks but don't forget to leave some cake for Ms Tattersall!

I hope your day has been wonderful and filled with magic!

Happy Birthday, Ms Tattersall!

Sheryll the Birthday Elf


      __________________________________________________________________
Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail.  Click on Options in Mail and switch to New Mail today or register for free at http://mail.yahoo.ca



From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Tue Jan  6 03:51:35 2009
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 03:51:35 -0000
Subject: Twelfth Night was: Re: "Nice and" expression question.
In-Reply-To: <gju6nd+1j94@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gjukg7+uac2@eGroups.com>

> Carol, taking down the last of her Christmas decorations on this
> Twelfth Day of Christmas and wondering whether anyone still celebrates
> Twelfth Night

Magpie:
I know at least one person on-line who had a Twelfth Night breakfast 
with her family, so somebody does!

-m





From celticfury22 at aol.com  Tue Jan  6 00:32:57 2009
From: celticfury22 at aol.com (celticfury22 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 19:32:57 -0500
Subject: Wizard Rock
Message-ID: <8CB3DAD74C32BE6-DBC-F5B@mblk-d19.sysops.aol.com>

?Hi !? I'm new to the group and was wondering if anyone listens to Wizard Rock ??? Is there anyone out there who knows how to get a hold of CD's of the MudBloods ??? They don't have them for sale anymone, and I really like their stuff !!? Thanks !!


-- celticfury


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Tue Jan  6 05:20:11 2009
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 05:20:11 -0000
Subject: "Nice and" expression question.
In-Reply-To: <gjoc70+v1bb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gjupmb+sjt4@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:

> By the way, I love your posts on the difficulties of translation. 
> It's funny (in the sense of odd, not amusing) how much we take 
> language for granted and how little we think about what it means 
> as we read it unless we encounter an unfamiliar term--an 
> American reader stumbling over British slang, for example. But 
> idioms, in most cases, just slide right by.



Well, Carol, *I* love your answers, because they are detailed and
supplied with examples :-). You are right, it is natural for a native
speaker to understand without thinking and analyzing, but for a
translator an idiom is not a friend :-). Some of them are especially
tricky - those which in some contexts can masquerade as something
normal and innocent, so if a translator doesn't know the expression,
he tends to translate it "as it is". 

"Nice and" is one of such idioms - its meaning seems so obvious to
less experienced translators, that they don't bother to do research on
it. Another example - the expression "small fortune". You can find
"small fortune" in dictionaries, but *they* don't look it up, because
the meaning seems so obvious: "small fortune" = "small amount of
money", what else can it be :-)? 

If they met this expression for the first time in a sentence like "She
spent a small fortune on her haircut", they might have suspected
something :-), but in PS/SS it's something like "There was a small
fortune belonging to Harry in Gringotts", which doesn't sound too
suspicious. As a result, in some amateur translations Harry has a
rather insignificant inheritance :-).

Anyway, I want to thank you and everyone else for your good advice.
Sometimes I need English-speakers' support so that I have more
authority when I try to correct someone's translation mistake :-).
It's a pity I can't do the same with our official translation - if I
was (were?) their editor, Neville would never have become the Potions
Master, LOL!


zanooda, very much behind in post reading ... 




From lizzy1933 at yahoo.com  Tue Jan  6 07:38:52 2009
From: lizzy1933 at yahoo.com (lizzie_snape)
Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 07:38:52 -0000
Subject: Nobel Son
In-Reply-To: <gjtnqh+2evu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gjv1qc+i609@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" 
<susiequsie23 at ...> wrote:
>
> I just checked Yahoo!Movies, and if they're right, this isn't playing 
> in Indy, nor even in Chicago!  What's up with that??  
> 
> Sorry the transit strike is still happening, Sheryll.  Not a fun way 
> to start the new year. :(
> 
> Siriusly Snapey Susan, 
> who's beginning to feel Siriusly annoyed about the lack of screenings
>

Not in Indy?  Good heavens! 

Nobel Son opened at all three of Fort Wayne's multiplexes on Dec. 5 for 
1 week; only Rave for a second week with one late night showing.  
Bottle Shock had the same distributor and had the same arrangement with 
Rave.

Of course, when I saw Roger Ebert's review in the morning paper I saw 
Nobel Son that afternoon.  Too bad you all missed AR's hairy legs and 
plaid shorts.

Lizzie 
who figures if Nobel Son hasn't been in your town (U.S.) by now, it's 
likely not going to be at all





From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Tue Jan  6 07:43:29 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 07:43:29 -0000
Subject: "Nice and" expression question.
In-Reply-To: <gju6nd+1j94@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gjv231+6efn@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:
>
> Kemper earlier: 
> > > A correctly adjusted temperature control is more objective.  The
> thermostat is nice and set at 68*.
> > 
> > 
> > Potioncat:
> > That wording sounds a bit ackward to me, but "The temperture is nice
>  and warm at 68*" sounds very reasonable.
> >
> Carol responds:
> Except that a 68-degree house isn't nice and warm! Or is it, if you
> live  in a cold climate? (BTW, I agree that Kemper's wording sounds
> awkward. "Nice and set" combines combines an adjective and a past
> participle. I would say, "The thermostat is set at a cool 68 degrees"
> or "a nice, warm 72 degrees" if I had any say in the matter! Or "a
> nice, cool 72 degrees" in summer.)

Geoff:
I think there might be a Fahrenheit/Centigrade confusion here...

The temperature on our central heating/hotwater boiler is usually 
set at 58 or thereabouts wlthough we have pushed it up to about 
63-64 in the current spell of severe cold in the UK. We used to 
have it a tad higher but now keep it lower for fuel economy 
reasons.

I think Kemper has a nice thermostat (shiny and well-polished?) 
which keeps the house warm.
:-)







From gav_fiji at yahoo.com  Tue Jan  6 11:20:14 2009
From: gav_fiji at yahoo.com (Goddlefrood)
Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 11:20:14 -0000
Subject: "Nice and" expression question.
In-Reply-To: <gjv231+6efn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gjvepe+j5u7@eGroups.com>

> Geoff:
> I think there might be a Fahrenheit/Centigrade confusion here...

Goddlefrood:

Not really, methinks. It looks as if the eastern ponders can take 
rather more cold than those on its west ;-)

> Geoff:
> The temperature on our central heating/hotwater boiler is usually 
> set at 58 or thereabouts wlthough we have pushed it up to about 
> 63-64 in the current spell of severe cold in the UK.

Goddlefrood:

If that's centigrade Geoff, then you should be ready for eating in 
a few days :-).





From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Tue Jan  6 15:31:36 2009
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 15:31:36 -0000
Subject: "Nice and" expression question.
In-Reply-To: <gjvepe+j5u7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gjvtgo+f7ul@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Goddlefrood" <gav_fiji at ...> 
wrote:
>
> > Geoff:
> > I think there might be a Fahrenheit/Centigrade confusion here...
> 
> Goddlefrood:
> 
> Not really, methinks. It looks as if the eastern ponders can take 
> rather more cold than those on its west ;-)

Magpie:
I think, as Carol said, it's more about where you are in the west or 
not. 68 sounds perfectly good to me, but I think Carol is in Arizona 
where maybe she's used to things being warmer.

-m




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Jan  6 16:42:02 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 16:42:02 -0000
Subject: Twelfth Night was: Re: "Nice and" expression question.
In-Reply-To: <gjukg7+uac2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gk01kq+rj57@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "sistermagpie"
<sistermagpie at ...> wrote:
>
> > Carol, taking down the last of her Christmas decorations on this
Twelfth Day of Christmas and wondering whether anyone still celebrates
Twelfth Night
> 
> Magpie:
> I know at least one person on-line who had a Twelfth Night breakfast
with her family, so somebody does!

Carol responds:

Twelfth Night breakfast? I'm confused. Twelfth Night would end at
midnight, January 5/6, wouldn't it, as the Twelfth Day/Night (January
5) changed to Epiphany (January 6)? Or does she consider Twelfth Night
as ending at sunrise on January 6 (Epiphany)? Either way, she seems to
be celebrating Twelfth Night after it's over. Either that, or it's a
Twelfth *Day* breakfast.

Carol, who is never quite sure whether the Twelve Days of Christmas
begin on Christmas Day itself (December 25), Christmas Night (sunset,
December 25), or Boxing Day/St. Stephen's Day (December 26)




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Jan  6 17:25:57 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 17:25:57 -0000
Subject: "Nice and" expression question.
In-Reply-To: <gjupmb+sjt4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gk0475+msek@eGroups.com>

zanooda wrote:
> Well, Carol, *I* love your answers, because they are detailed and
supplied with examples :-). 

Carol responds:
Thanks! I enjoy writing them.

zanooda:
> You are right, it is natural for a native speaker to understand
without thinking and analyzing, but for a translator an idiom is not a
friend :-). Some of them are especially tricky - those which in some
contexts can masquerade as something normal and innocent, so if a
translator doesn't know the expression, he tends to translate it "as
it is". 

Carol:
Right. But that's what makes them so much fun to discuss. It's eye
opening for the native speakers of a language to see the language as
"ithers" see it. (Bobby Burns on the brain, sorry.) Also, of course,
translations can be hilarious for the same reason, a misunderstanding
of idioms by the translator.

zanooda:
> <snip> Anyway, I want to thank you and everyone else for your good
advice. Sometimes I need English-speakers' support so that I have more
authority when I try to correct someone's translation mistake :-).
It's a pity I can't do the same with our official translation - if I
was (were?) their editor, Neville would never have become the Potions
Master, LOL!

Carol responds:

I agree. There's no excuse for making Neville Potions master rather
than Herbology professor, which can't be explained through
misinterpreted idioms. Maybe it was wishful thinking on the part of
the translator (poetic justice, in his or her view?). 

BTW, "if I were" is the subjunctive mood and is used when the thing
you're describing is impossible or hypothetical or contrary to fact
(you're not their editor, so "if I were" is correct). "If I was" is
used when the thing is possible but you're not sure whether it's true
or not ("if I was a bit too grumpy yesterday, I apologize."

Some people (including me) use "if I were" habitually (except in rare
cases like that last one), even though it's technically formal
English. However, except for "if I were you," the subjunctive mood is
disappearing from English, and many people say "if I was" in
conversation or informal writing. In another fifty years, "if I were"
will probably obsolete, along (I hope) with the annoying and outdated
"whether it be."

Carol, now anticipating a slew of posts defending "whether it be" 




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Jan  6 17:48:16 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 17:48:16 -0000
Subject: 68 degrees "nice and warm"? Was: "Nice and" expression question.
In-Reply-To: <gjv231+6efn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gk05h0+c98j@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister"
<gbannister10 at ...> wrote:
>
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67@> wrote:
> >
> > Kemper earlier: 
> > > > A correctly adjusted temperature control is more objective.  The
> > thermostat is nice and set at 68*.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Potioncat:
> > > That wording sounds a bit ackward to me, but "The temperture is nice
> >  and warm at 68*" sounds very reasonable.
> > >
> > Carol responds:
> > Except that a 68-degree house isn't nice and warm! Or is it, if you
> > live  in a cold climate? (BTW, I agree that Kemper's wording sounds
> > awkward. "Nice and set" combines combines an adjective and a past
> > participle. I would say, "The thermostat is set at a cool 68 degrees"
> > or "a nice, warm 72 degrees" if I had any say in the matter! Or "a
> > nice, cool 72 degrees" in summer.)
> 
> Geoff:
> I think there might be a Fahrenheit/Centigrade confusion here...
> 
> The temperature on our central heating/hotwater boiler is usually 
> set at 58 or thereabouts wlthough we have pushed it up to about 
> 63-64 in the current spell of severe cold in the UK. We used to 
> have it a tad higher but now keep it lower for fuel economy 
> reasons.
> 
> I think Kemper has a nice thermostat (shiny and well-polished?) 
> which keeps the house warm.
> :-)
>
Carol responds:

I was thinking of the temperature of the house itself. I have electric
heating, and the furnace (or air conditioning, depending on whether
the thermostat is set to Heat or Cool) kicks on when the house reaches
that temperature. I'd *like* to keep it at 72 degrees F, which
corresponds to 22.22 degrees Celsius, but I usually settle for 68
(that's 20 degress C.) in winter and maybe 76 in summer (24.44 C.) to
save money. Right now, I have the thermostat turned off and it's about
66 degrees in the apartment (18.9 C.). I'm still in my robe and
slippers, with jeans under the nightie and warm socks under the
slippers (oh, the advantages of working at home!), so I'm not cold
enough to turn the heat on--yet. 

If I set the thermostat at 68 C. (154.4 F.), I would die! Actually, it
only goes up to 96 F. (35.55 C.), and no one in their right mind would
set it that high. (My water heater, OTOH, is probably set to about 125
F or 51.7 C.--I don't know because there's a metal plate covering the
thermostat and I'm not about to take it off--but it's not used to heat
the house!)

Carol, who still thinks that a 68-degree (F.) house is something less
than cozy ("nice and warm")




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Jan  6 17:58:30 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 17:58:30 -0000
Subject: "Nice and" expression question.
In-Reply-To: <gjvtgo+f7ul@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gk0646+lqa5@eGroups.com>

> Magpie:
> I think, as Carol said, it's more about where you are in the west or
not. 68 sounds perfectly good to me, but I think Carol is in Arizona
where maybe she's used to things being warmer.

Carol responds:

Exactly. I used to live in Flagstaff (I remember having *seven feet*
of snow on the ground one year), but since 1982, I've lived in Tucson,
where snow is rare and a really cold night is one that drops below
freezing, and I've become acclimated to warm weather. A high in the
fifties (F) here is considered cold, and people who aren't snowbirds
(winter residents) or tourists wear coats or jackets. Well, I do,
anyway. I have virtually no body fat (5 feet ten, 125 pounds), so I
need a coat (outdoors) and (like Dumbledore) nice, warm socks (indoors
or out) to feel comfortable in winter. For me, 72 degrees is the ideal
temperature inside, if it weren't for heat drying out the air--and the
cost of electricity.

Carol, wishing that she still enjoyed cold weather because snow (when
you don't have to drive on it) is beautiful





From n2fgc at arrl.net  Tue Jan  6 18:48:09 2009
From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force)
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 13:48:09 -0500
Subject: Keeping Warm (was Re: "Nice and" expression question.)
In-Reply-To: <gjvtgo+f7ul@eGroups.com>
References: <gjvepe+j5u7@eGroups.com> <gjvtgo+f7ul@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <2149C930693B4947B16010A60612440D@musiclee>

| Magpie:
| I think, as Carol said, it's more about where you are in the west or 
| not. 68 sounds perfectly good to me, but I think Carol is in Arizona 


[Lee]:
Indeed.  When we're at home in NJ, I admit we keep our home cooler than most
average bears...a balmy 67 F.  When we go to Florida, the temperature of our
Sister-in Law's house is 72 which, at night for me, is way too hot.  I do
like to snuggle down when I sleep so 72 F is stifling.  We keep a fan in our
guest room turned on high and pointed right at us. :-)

Cheers,

Lee :-)




From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Tue Jan  6 19:14:52 2009
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 19:14:52 -0000
Subject: Twelfth Night was: Re: "Nice and" expression question.
In-Reply-To: <gk01kq+rj57@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gk0ajc+g69p@eGroups.com>

> Carol responds:
> 
> Twelfth Night breakfast? I'm confused. Twelfth Night would end at
> midnight, January 5/6, wouldn't it, as the Twelfth Day/Night (January
> 5) changed to Epiphany (January 6)? Or does she consider Twelfth Night
> as ending at sunrise on January 6 (Epiphany)? Either way, she seems to
> be celebrating Twelfth Night after it's over. Either that, or it's a
> Twelfth *Day* breakfast.

Magpie:
They have the breakfast on the morning of January 5th. So yeah, it's a 
Twelfth Day breakfast, but they call it Twelfth Night breakfast. I 
suppose the way people refer to December 24 as "Christmas Eve" and all 
of October 31st as "Halloween" even in the morning?

-m




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Tue Jan  6 20:04:03 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 20:04:03 -0000
Subject: "Nice and" expression question.
In-Reply-To: <gjvepe+j5u7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gk0dfj+3ihi@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Goddlefrood" <gav_fiji at ...> wrote:
>
> > Geoff:
> > I think there might be a Fahrenheit/Centigrade confusion here...
> 
> Goddlefrood:
> 
> Not really, methinks. It looks as if the eastern ponders can take 
> rather more cold than those on its west ;-)
> 
> > Geoff:
> > The temperature on our central heating/hotwater boiler is usually 
> > set at 58 or thereabouts wlthough we have pushed it up to about 
> > 63-64 in the current spell of severe cold in the UK.
> 
> Goddlefrood:
> 
> If that's centigrade Geoff, then you should be ready for eating in 
> a few days :-).

Geoff:
With respect, that is the temperature setting on the boiler, not the 
thermostat system on the lounge wall. I am talking about the 
temperature of the water circulating in the pipes. The manufacturers 
actually recommend 80 C in winter and 65 C in the summer with only 
the water switched in.

I wouldn't want to take a bath at 58 F. When the seawater here gets to 
about 65 F, it is just about tolerable for swimming.






From willsonkmom at msn.com  Tue Jan  6 23:05:01 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 23:05:01 -0000
Subject: Keeping Warm (was Re: "Nice and" expression question.)
In-Reply-To: <2149C930693B4947B16010A60612440D@musiclee>
Message-ID: <gk0o2t+4atn@eGroups.com>

 
> [Lee]:
> Indeed.  When we're at home in NJ, I admit we keep our home cooler 
than most
> average bears...a balmy 67 F.  When we go to Florida, the temperature 
of our
> Sister-in Law's house is 72 which, at night for me, is way too hot.  
I do
> like to snuggle down when I sleep so 72 F is stifling.  We keep a fan 
in our
> guest room turned on high and pointed right at us. :-)
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Lee :-)


Potioncat:
72 would be way too hot to sleep. I suffer it in summer for expense and 
energy reasons. But I don't like it. 68-70 is the range I prefer. I'd 
much rather bundle up with a cozy blaket or sweater in the winter than 
to ever be too warm.





From willsonkmom at msn.com  Tue Jan  6 23:08:29 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 23:08:29 -0000
Subject: Nobel Son
In-Reply-To: <gjv1qc+i609@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gk0o9d+uvjj@eGroups.com>

Lizzie wrote: 
> Nobel Son opened at all three of Fort Wayne's multiplexes on Dec. 5 
for 
> 1 week; only Rave for a second week with one late night showing.  
> Bottle Shock had the same distributor and had the same arrangement 
with 
> Rave.


Potioncat:
So did it go into the theaters with the intention of only being there 
one week? Stupid, stupid contract! The stupid theaters should have 
posted it as "Limited engagement! One week only!" and people would have 
come in droves. Certainly if I'd had any idea it wasn't going to stick 
around for a few weeks, I would have gone.

I saw the display for it when I went to see "Striped Pajamas." As 
prominent as it was, I expected to see more about the movie in the 
papers. 




From s_ings at yahoo.com  Tue Jan  6 23:46:41 2009
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 15:46:41 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] 68 degrees "nice and warm"? Was: "Nice and" expression question.
In-Reply-To: <gk05h0+c98j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <512120.36956.qm@web63407.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

<snip, snip, snip>

 Carol responds:
> 
> I was thinking of the temperature of the house itself. I
> have electric
> heating, and the furnace (or air conditioning, depending on
> whether
> the thermostat is set to Heat or Cool) kicks on when the
> house reaches
> that temperature. I'd *like* to keep it at 72 degrees
> F, which
> corresponds to 22.22 degrees Celsius, but I usually settle
> for 68
> (that's 20 degress C.) in winter and maybe 76 in summer
> (24.44 C.) to
> save money. Right now, I have the thermostat turned off and
> it's about
> 66 degrees in the apartment (18.9 C.). I'm still in my
> robe and
> slippers, with jeans under the nightie and warm socks under
> the
> slippers (oh, the advantages of working at home!), so
> I'm not cold
> enough to turn the heat on--yet. 
> 
> If I set the thermostat at 68 C. (154.4 F.), I would die!
> Actually, it
> only goes up to 96 F. (35.55 C.), and no one in their right
> mind would
> set it that high. (My water heater, OTOH, is probably set
> to about 125
> F or 51.7 C.--I don't know because there's a metal
> plate covering the
> thermostat and I'm not about to take it off--but
> it's not used to heat
> the house!)
> 
> Carol, who still thinks that a 68-degree (F.) house is
> something less
> than cozy ("nice and warm")
> 
Sheryll:

I live in a drafty old house. In the infinite wisdom (note sarcasm) of the person who built this house, the thermostat is in the kitchen. In order to keep the rest of the house at a temperature that won't freeze your bare toes we keep the thermostat set at 74 F. Sometimes higher if the temp outside is going down below -30 C. Yes, serious temperature confusion at our place. The thermostat in in F and we're a country that uses Celsius. *sigh* 

On the flip side, we don't have air conditioning. It gets mighty hot in here when there's a heatwave outside. The worst I've seen it get is a three day stretch a couple summers ago when it was 94 F in the house. Not terribly conducive to a good night's sleep! Or anything else, for that matter. 

Sheryll, who lives in flannel jammies and warm slippers all winter if she doesn't have to go out


      __________________________________________________________________
Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers and share what you know at http://ca.answers.yahoo.com



From drdara at yahoo.com  Wed Jan  7 01:06:44 2009
From: drdara at yahoo.com (danielle dassero)
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 17:06:44 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Wizard Rock
References: <8CB3DAD74C32BE6-DBC-F5B@mblk-d19.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <380390.51299.qm@web65413.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>





Hi !? I'm new to the group and was wondering if anyone listens to Wizard Rock ??? Is there anyone out there who knows how to get a hold of CD's of the MudBloods ??? They don't have them for sale anymone, and I really like their stuff !!? Thanks !!

-- celticfury

Itunes is the only place I know of. I myself love the Mudbloods too.

Danielle  
 


      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Wed Jan  7 01:19:42 2009
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 01:19:42 -0000
Subject: Nice and Interesting for a Small fortune which is Pretty good.
Message-ID: <gk0vve+bv80@eGroups.com>

I like discussion the 'Nice and ...' discussion. Not only
do we expand the meaning of language for others, but we take a
critical look at its usage ourselves.

In the 'Nice and ...' discusion, and in the context of transation
of odd English expressions, someone brought up the expression
'small fortune' and how that would be or could be translated. 

So, I was driving my car, pondering the mysteries of language, and
thought, well $1,000,000 is a 'small' fortune, $10,000,000 is
a medium fortune, and $100,000,000 is a pretty huge fortune.

Then like a bolt of lightening, the use of 'pretty' struck me as
immensely odd.

So, what does 'pretty' mean? More or less 'beautiful'.

Q: How are you?
A: Oh...pretty good.
Q: Really, so you are beautifully good?

Q: How's the weather?
A: Pretty cold.
Q: What? It's a beautifully cold day?

Q: Heard you were sick, how are you feeling?
A: Pretty bad?
Q: You feel beautifully bad? 

Of course, like 'nice and...', 'pretty' has little meaning at
all, as we can see below -

Q: How are you?
A: Good.

Q: How's the weather?
A: Cold.

Q: Heard you were sick, how are you feeling?
A: Bad.

"Pretty" serves as an intensifier for the statement.


A few others occurred to me as I was driving.


'Not Bad', as in -

Q: How is that cake that I slaved over for hours?
A: Not bad.
Q: What kind of backhanded half-baked compliment is that!?

Of course, that which is 'not bad' is good. Though I can't
imagine how or why anyone ever thought that saying 'not bad'
was a compliment. 


'What's up?'

This may be more of an American thing, but Americans say 
'What's up?' as a greeting all the time. I've spoken to 
some foreigners who took forever to understand that they 
were merely asking 'How are you?'.

Just a few thoughts from someone with too much time on his
hands.

Steve/bluewizard




From celticfury22 at aol.com  Wed Jan  7 01:47:20 2009
From: celticfury22 at aol.com (celticfury22 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 20:47:20 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Wizard Rock
In-Reply-To: <380390.51299.qm@web65413.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <8CB3DAD74C32BE6-DBC-F5B@mblk-d19.sysops.aol.com> <380390.51299.qm@web65413.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8CB3E810367D00B-510-FC9@webmail-dd09.sysops.aol.com>

Thanks for the help !? May I ask where on I Tunes ?? I searched but had no luck.? Thanks !!


-- celticfury


-----Original Message-----
From: danielle dassero <drdara at yahoo.com>
To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 5:06 pm
Subject: Re: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Wizard Rock








Hi !? I'm new to the group and was wondering if anyone listens to Wizard Rock ??? Is there anyone out there who knows how to get a hold of CD's of the MudBloods ??? They don't have them for sale anymone, and I really like their stuff !!? Thanks !!

-- celticfury

Itunes is the only place I know of. I myself love the Mudbloods too.

Danielle 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Jan  7 01:49:09 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 01:49:09 -0000
Subject: Nice and Interesting for a Small fortune which is Pretty good.
In-Reply-To: <gk0vve+bv80@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gk11ml+p4og@eGroups.com>

Steve/bluewizard/formerly bboyminn wrote:
<snip>
> 'What's up?'
> 
> This may be more of an American thing, but Americans say 'What's
up?' as a greeting all the time. I've spoken to some foreigners who
took forever to understand that they were merely asking 'How are
you?'. <snip>

Carol responds:

Not to be contrary, but I think "What's up?" is  more like "What's
happening?" or "What's going on?" When I telephone my son-in-law, he
always asks "What's up?" meaning, "Why are you calling, Mom?" but
usually the question is more of an empty greeting, ostensibly asking
what's happening in the other person's life rather than how they're
feeling or doing. (When a teenager says "Wazzup?" he probably expects
no more response than a high five.)

At any rate, if you say, "How are you?" you generally expect a
response like "Fine, thanks," or "Fine. And you?" Neither of those
answers is particularly informative, but either would be an odd
response to "What's up?" don't you think? OTOH, you're likely as not
to get "not much" as a response to "What's up," which is no more
informative or meaningful than the canned responses to "How are you?"
Not much going on in any of these conversations!

Carol, who has received some odd looks for providing a real answer to
the rhetorical question "How are you?" but thinks that "What's up?"
allows a little more leeway (unless the person asking is fifteen)






From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Wed Jan  7 01:51:36 2009
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 01:51:36 -0000
Subject: "Nice and" expression question-Neville.
In-Reply-To: <gk0475+msek@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gk11r8+qim8@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:

> I agree. There's no excuse for making Neville Potions master rather
> than Herbology professor, which can't be explained through
> misinterpreted idioms. Maybe it was wishful thinking on the part of
> the translator (poetic justice, in his or her view?).


zanooda: 

I'm pretty sure that was not deliberate, Carol. They just don't care:
somebody made an unacceptable mistake, and no one at the publishing
house even noticed (except for the puzzled readers, of course :-)).
And, as every book is translated by a different team, I suppose they
just don't know previous books and characters well. 

They are unaware of the fact (or else they don't care) that Neville is
very good at Herbology and that Potions is his worst subject,
otherwise they certainly would have noticed such an obvious mistake.
Potions, Herbology - it's all the same in their eyes, I guess :-). I
bet they don't even understand *why* the fans made such a big deal out
of this "Neville the Potions master" thing :-). 

They didn't even acknowledge their mistake and didn't apologize, I
believe. Maybe amateur translators are not professionals, but, unlike
the official translators, they are enthusiastic and they care about HP
books and characters. That's why I'm trying to help them, see :-)?




From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Wed Jan  7 02:09:38 2009
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 02:09:38 -0000
Subject: Nice and Interesting for a Small fortune which is Pretty good.
In-Reply-To: <gk11ml+p4og@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gk12t2+hp8r@eGroups.com>

---  "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:
>
> Steve/bluewizard/formerly bboyminn wrote:
> <snip>
> > 'What's up?'
> > 
> > This may be more of an American thing, but Americans say 'What's
> up?' as a greeting all the time. I've spoken to some foreigners who
> took forever to understand that they were merely asking 'How are
> you?'. <snip>
> 
> Carol responds:
> 
> Not to be contrary, but I think "What's up?" is  more like "What's
> happening?" or "What's going on?" ...
> 
> Carol, 

bboyminn:

OK, you got me on a technicality. More literally, 'What's up?' would
be 'What's happening?'. I was just intending to say that is was a very
non-specific general greeting, that in and of itself has very little
meaning. Typically you respond with an equally non-specific repsonse
like 'not much' and things move forward. 

Still, I've talked to several foreigns who claimed they took the
longest time to understand the significants of 'What's up?'. 

So...pretty good...heh?

Steve/bboyminn

Bluewizard is another sceen name that I use mostly in audio related
groups, and I had just been in them before coming here. It gets
confusing sometimes.




From md at exit-reality.com  Wed Jan  7 02:19:13 2009
From: md at exit-reality.com (Cabal)
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 21:19:13 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Nice and Interesting for a Small fortune which is Pretty good.
In-Reply-To: <gk0vve+bv80@eGroups.com>
References: <gk0vve+bv80@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <007b01c9706e$55af8710$010e9530$@com>



-----Original Message-----
From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
[mailto:HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Steve
Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 8:20 PM
To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Nice and Interesting for a Small fortune which is
Pretty good.


"Pretty" serves as an intensifier for the statement.

Steve/bluewizard


------------------------------------
???

"Pretty" is an adverb and adjective and a noun... what the hell is an
intensifier, I teach English, never heard of any such thing :-D

That's a pretty dress. Adjective
That's a pretty, damned mean thing to do. Adverb.
Not now, my pretty. Noun.

md




From kempermentor at yahoo.com  Wed Jan  7 03:09:18 2009
From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kempermentor)
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 03:09:18 -0000
Subject: Nice and Interesting for a Small fortune which is Pretty good.
In-Reply-To: <007b01c9706e$55af8710$010e9530$@com>
Message-ID: <gk16cu+sgml@eGroups.com>

> Steve:
> Pretty good.
> "Pretty" serves as an intensifier for the statement.

> md:
> ???
> 
> "Pretty" is an adverb and adjective and a noun... what the hell is an
> intensifier, I teach English, never heard of any such thing :-D
> 
> That's a pretty dress. Adjective
> That's a pretty, damned mean thing to do. Adverb.
> Not now, my pretty. Noun.

Kemper now:
I think intensifiers are a part of grammar: usually an adverb
adverbing another adverb.
Pretty good.  Pretty acts as the adverb intensifying the adverb good.
How does that taste?
It tastes pretty good.

When will the food get here?
Pretty soon.

Kemper




From md at exit-reality.com  Wed Jan  7 03:35:03 2009
From: md at exit-reality.com (Cabal)
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 22:35:03 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Nice and Interesting for a Small fortune which is Pretty good.
In-Reply-To: <gk16cu+sgml@eGroups.com>
References: <007b01c9706e$55af8710$010e9530$@com> <gk16cu+sgml@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000601c97078$ef4913a0$cddb3ae0$@com>



-----Original Message-----
From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
[mailto:HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of kempermentor
Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 10:09 PM
To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Nice and Interesting for a Small fortune
which is Pretty good.

Kemper now:
I think intensifiers are a part of grammar: usually an adverb
adverbing another adverb.

::::::::::::::::::::::

Unless it's some UK or other English speaking country rule.

As a U.S. English Teacher (secondary) I can assure you that there is no such
part of grammer.

An adverb modifying an adverb is an adverb.

Anyway, I hope you where joking, but if not, then no such part-of-speech.

md




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Wed Jan  7 07:42:51 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 07:42:51 -0000
Subject: Nice and Interesting for a Small fortune which is Pretty good.
In-Reply-To: <007b01c9706e$55af8710$010e9530$@com>
Message-ID: <gk1mdr+pstn@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Cabal" <md at ...> wrote:
 
Steve/bluewizard:
> "Pretty" serves as an intensifier for the statement.

md:
> ???
> 
> "Pretty" is an adverb and adjective and a noun... what the hell is an
> intensifier, I teach English, never heard of any such thing :-D
> 
> That's a pretty dress. Adjective
> That's a pretty, damned mean thing to do. Adverb.
> Not now, my pretty. Noun.

Geoff:
Surely, your adverb example isn't.

"Thing" is a noun and "pretty", "damned" and "mean" are all 
referring to it. hence they are adjectives.

I think a suitable example of adverbial usage would be "you did 
that job pretty quickly.".




From gav_fiji at yahoo.com  Wed Jan  7 09:39:52 2009
From: gav_fiji at yahoo.com (Goddlefrood)
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 09:39:52 -0000
Subject: Keeping Warm (was Re: "Nice and" expression question.)
In-Reply-To: <gk0o2t+4atn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gk1t98+rprf@eGroups.com>

> Potioncat:
> 72 would be way too hot to sleep.

Goddlefrood:

You get used to it. Where I live in Fiji the night time 
temperature in the coolest months would be about 68. We 
find that a little chilly and get the blankets and heavy 
clothes out to protect against freezing temperatures such 
as that. Currently it's somewhere in the mid 80s at night 
and I usually sleep just fine.

A really cold night would be delightful, and apparently, as 
I'm currently on holiday in the UK, we're in for one today. 
The forecast here is for -10C. I may just turn the heating 
on ;-)




From dumbledad at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Jan  7 12:43:34 2009
From: dumbledad at yahoo.co.uk (Tim Regan)
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 12:43:34 -0000
Subject: "Nice and" expression question.
In-Reply-To: <gjlpa0+bb06@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gk281m+22n3@eGroups.com>

Hi All,

Jumping in late to a mature thread ...

The term "nice and" always puts me in mind of the Stranglers track 
Nice 'N' Sleazy. When I was young (13, 14 or so - I'm 43 now though I 
feel 57) I had a punk phase and The Strangler's album "Black and 
White" was one of my favourites. I think the "sleazy" in the song's 
title refers to the strippers who'd accompany The Stranglers on 
stage, though I didn't know that then. I never got to see them live, 
by the time Mum and Dad felt I was old enough to go to concerts my 
interest in punk (in fact the whole punk thing) was waning, though I 
did manage to see The Damned, Stiff Little Fingers, and Siouxsie and 
the Banshees.

Anyway ? here's them performing it on Top of the Pops: 
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=OYqllpnyWrY
Ah, memory lane.

Cheers,

Dumbledad





From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Wed Jan  7 15:18:49 2009
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 15:18:49 -0000
Subject: Nice and Interesting for a Small fortune which is Pretty good.
In-Reply-To: <000601c97078$ef4913a0$cddb3ae0$@com>
Message-ID: <gk2h4p+slu0@eGroups.com>

> Kemper now:
> I think intensifiers are a part of grammar: usually an adverb
> adverbing another adverb.
> 
> ::::::::::::::::::::::
> 
> Unless it's some UK or other English speaking country rule.
> 
> As a U.S. English Teacher (secondary) I can assure you that there 
is no such
> part of grammer.
> 
> An adverb modifying an adverb is an adverb.
> 
> Anyway, I hope you where joking, but if not, then no such part-of-
speech.

Magpie:
I don't think he meant he were an official part of speech as 
in "these are the 8 parts of speech." But a word can act as an 
intensifier so the word's just descriptive--if the word is 
intensifying something in a sentence it's an intensifier. 

As Lolly Jr. says in the schoolhouse rock song about adverbs: "Hello 
folks, Lolly, Jr. here. Suppose your house needs painting -- how are 
you going to paint it? That's where the adverb comes in. We can also 
give you a special intensifier so you can paint it very neatly or 
rather sloppily."

-m




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Jan  7 16:04:33 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 16:04:33 -0000
Subject: Nice and Interesting for a Small fortune which is Pretty good.
In-Reply-To: <000601c97078$ef4913a0$cddb3ae0$@com>
Message-ID: <gk2jqh+3hj8@eGroups.com>

Cabal wrote:
> Unless it's some UK or other English speaking country rule.
> 
> As a U.S. English Teacher (secondary) I can assure you that there is
no such part of grammer.
> 
> An adverb modifying an adverb is an adverb.
> 
> Anyway, I hope you where joking, but if not, then no such
part-of-speech.

Carol responds:

"Intensifier" isn't a part of speech, true, but some adverbs do serve
as intensifiers (also known as intensive adverbs). An intensifier
modifies either adjectives or other adverbs or both but isn't used to
modify verbs. Examples include "pretty," "really," "fairly," and
"very." "Intensifier" is, IMO, a misnomer since "pretty" and "fairly"
weaken rather than intensify the term they modify. Steve didn't make
it up. Neither did I. Possibly it's borrowed from other languages(?).
Geoff, does Latin have intensifiers? I've forgotten.

Here's a link to a web page that explains the concept simply:

http://www.sil.org/linguistics/GlossaryOfLinguisticTerms/WhatIsAnIntensifier.htm

A google search for "intensifier grammar" (no quotes) will provide
many others.

Carol, who also taught English and never used the term "intensifier,"
either, mainly because "adverb" was sufficient for grammar-resistant
students




From vand195550 at yahoo.com  Wed Jan  7 16:33:55 2009
From: vand195550 at yahoo.com (Stephen Vandecasteele)
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 08:33:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Nice and Interesting for a Small fortune which is Pretty good.
Message-ID: <804908.30409.qm@web59416.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>


 
> 
> 
> 
> As Lolly Jr. says in the schoolhouse rock song about
> adverbs: "Hello 
> 
> folks, Lolly, Jr. here. Suppose your house needs painting
> -- how are 
> 
> you going to paint it? That's where the adverb comes
> in. We can also 
> 
> give you a special intensifier so you can paint it very
> neatly or 
> 
> rather sloppily."

Steve now,

What comes to mind  reading this entire thread is English 101.

Steve
> 
> 
> 
> -m
 


      




From alexisnguyen at gmail.com  Wed Jan  7 16:34:51 2009
From: alexisnguyen at gmail.com (P. Alexis Nguyen)
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 11:34:51 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Amusingly appropriate typo
In-Reply-To: <799462A8F09046B58DCA8541CDBB5906@musiclee>
References: <gjr441+ods5@eGroups.com>
	 <799462A8F09046B58DCA8541CDBB5906@musiclee>
Message-ID: <b6e131bf0901070834w11556e8qdfd1dd8e78678ae8@mail.gmail.com>

Lee:
> One would think that proofreading has become a lost art.

Ali:
I have some defense to the memo and them "slops."  There's quite a bit
of scientific proof that the mind mostly constructs words from the
first and last letters.  "Qualty" is an honest mistake that is easy to
miss (not that it makes the person who made it any less careless since
it's a mistake Word would definitely catch).  If one is simply reading
and not reading for proofing purposes, it's something quite easily
missed.

However, with me seeing typos and grammatical errors all over the
place in books coming from giant publishing houses with big budgets
for things like editing and proofing, I can't help but think you're
more than a little correct in your point, Lee.  So sad ...

~Ali



From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Jan  7 17:01:04 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 17:01:04 -0000
Subject: Nice and Interesting for a Small fortune which is Pretty good.
In-Reply-To: <804908.30409.qm@web59416.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <gk2n4g+64fo@eGroups.com>

Stephen Vandecasteele wrote:
 
> What comes to mind  reading this entire thread is English 101.

Carol responds:

Yes. Some of us either teach or used to teach freshman comp and
similar courses (I taught it for eighteen years!), and the impulse to
spread the gospel of grammar is still there.

BTW, Steve, I hope you haven't left the movie group. I have some
questions for you there relating to GoF and OoP (the films) that I'm
eager to read your responses to. And if I was ungracious in my post
there (wanting you to understand that the spoiler policy is intended
as a courtesy), please accept my apologies.

Carol, pointing out to zanooda the use of "if I was" in this
particular post and exiting McGonagall mode




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Jan  7 18:28:42 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 18:28:42 -0000
Subject: Amusingly appropriate typo
In-Reply-To: <b6e131bf0901070834w11556e8qdfd1dd8e78678ae8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <gk2s8q+lp7b@eGroups.com>

Lee wrote:
> > One would think that proofreading has become a lost art.
> 
> Ali:
> I have some defense to the memo and them "slops."  <snip>
> However, with me seeing typos and grammatical errors all over the
place in books coming from giant publishing houses with big budgets
for things like editing and proofing, I can't help but think you're
more than a little correct in your point, Lee.  So sad ...

Carol responds:

As a copyeditor and sometime proofreader, I'd like to point out that
even proofreaders sometimes read the intended meaning rather than
what's actually in print on the proof sheet, especially in long works
when the eyes and brain are tired at the end of the day. But in a
short article, especially the first line, there's no excuse. At least
four people--the reporter, the copyeditor, the typesetter, and the
proofreader, would have seen that article (unless online editions of
newspapers bypass some of those steps).

Carol, who got sidetracked and forgot this post was still here (hope
it doesn't post twice!) 




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Jan  7 19:41:32 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 19:41:32 -0000
Subject: Cancelled show ("Wonderland") back on American TV
Message-ID: <gk30hc+99bk@eGroups.com>

Does anyone remember the TV show "Wonderland" (about a psychiatric
hospital based on New York City's Bellevue) that ABC cancelled back in
April 2000? It was aired in some European countries, including Germany
and Sweden, but Americans got to see only the first two episodes
because ABC crumbled under pressure from NAMI (the National Institute
for Mental Illness), which claimed that the show stereotyped the
mentally ill. It was certainly intense and some scenes were
disturbing, but it was a lot more realistic than the horror films that
many parents allow their children to see.

At any rate, cable viewers still won't be able to see it, but if
you're lucky enough to have DirecTV, you can see all eight episodes on
101 Network starting January 14. here's a link to an article with all
the details:

http://nab365.bdmetrics.com/NST-10-50154342/DIRECTV-s-The-101-Network-Brings-Bac\
k-Wonderland-.aspx

In case that long link doesn't work, here's the tinyurl:

http://tinyurl.com/83q5br

Carol, who managed to download all the episodes (with German
subtitles) from a website that now has only three episodes available
(it used to have all eight episodes!):

http://netfolder.in/folder.php?folder_id=MTQ0Nzg





















From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Wed Jan  7 21:04:55 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 21:04:55 -0000
Subject: Amusingly appropriate typo
In-Reply-To: <gk2s8q+lp7b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gk35dn+8ou3@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:
 
Carol:
 
> As a copyeditor and sometime proofreader, I'd like to point out that
> even proofreaders sometimes read the intended meaning rather than
> what's actually in print on the proof sheet, especially in long works
> when the eyes and brain are tired at the end of the day. But in a
> short article, especially the first line, there's no excuse. At least
> four people--the reporter, the copyeditor, the typesetter, and the
> proofreader, would have seen that article (unless online editions of
> newspapers bypass some of those steps).

Geoff:
The trouble is that the eye often sees what it expects to see. How 
many of you, like myself, have written an email or a post to an HP 
group, proof-read it three times, hit the SEND button - and then 
spotted a mistake 2 seconds after it clears?

On a different topic which arose from a previous post, I must ask a 
question as a possibly dense UK ex-teacher. I have often seen 
references to "Subject 101". What precisely is a subject with this
 title?






From alexisnguyen at gmail.com  Wed Jan  7 21:25:14 2009
From: alexisnguyen at gmail.com (P. Alexis Nguyen)
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 16:25:14 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Amusingly appropriate typo
In-Reply-To: <gk2s8q+lp7b@eGroups.com>
References: <b6e131bf0901070834w11556e8qdfd1dd8e78678ae8@mail.gmail.com>
	 <gk2s8q+lp7b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b6e131bf0901071325o10c61d40m627e3d1465e4e8c6@mail.gmail.com>

Carol:
> As a copyeditor and sometime proofreader, I'd like to point out that
> even proofreaders sometimes read the intended meaning rather than
> what's actually in print on the proof sheet, especially in long works
> when the eyes and brain are tired at the end of the day. But in a
> short article, especially the first line, there's no excuse. At least
> four people--the reporter, the copyeditor, the typesetter, and the
> proofreader, would have seen that article (unless online editions of
> newspapers bypass some of those steps).

Ali:
Believe me, as a proofreader and sometime copyeditor, I do understand
what you mean.  Like I said, it was "some defense," not anything too
fantastic.  Besides, the "qualty" is definitely something that
should've been caught by Word (or any word processing program that has
a spell check function)


Geoff:
> On a different topic which arose from a previous post, I must ask a
> question as a possibly dense UK ex-teacher. I have often seen
> references to "Subject 101". What precisely is a subject with this
> title?

Ali:
Admittedly, I have no idea where this started since when I was at
university (not many years ago), 101 was definitely not what it stands
for in the normal English vernacular.  However, this "Subject 101"
thing basically denotes an intro course - e.g., English 101 is
Introduction to English, History 101 is Intro to History.  This is
sometimes shortened into (at least speech-wise) "English 1" or
"History 1" or similar.

My question is whether this is idiomatic usage, a colloquialism, or
what?  I think it's idiomatic, but I think I shall also go see if the
free OED (sadly, not being in college means not getting free usage of
the online OED) or Wikipedia can tell me anything.

~Ali, whose Finance 101 class was definitely not Intro to Finance or
any sort of intro course



From n2fgc at arrl.net  Wed Jan  7 21:56:54 2009
From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force)
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 16:56:54 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Amusingly appropriate typo
In-Reply-To: <gk35dn+8ou3@eGroups.com>
References: <gk2s8q+lp7b@eGroups.com> <gk35dn+8ou3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <65025DEF2FFA493F9A708B34CA475552@musiclee>

 

| -----Original Message-----
| From: Geoff Bannister [mailto:gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk] 
| Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 16:05
| To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
| Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Amusingly appropriate typo
| 
| --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" 
| <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:
|  
| Carol:
|  
| > As a copyeditor and sometime proofreader, I'd like to point out that
| > even proofreaders sometimes read the intended meaning rather than
| > what's actually in print on the proof sheet, especially in 
| long works
| > when the eyes and brain are tired at the end of the day. But in a
| > short article, especially the first line, there's no 
| excuse. At least
| > four people--the reporter, the copyeditor, the typesetter, and the
| > proofreader, would have seen that article (unless online editions of
| > newspapers bypass some of those steps).
| 
| Geoff:
| On a different topic which arose from a previous post, I must ask a 
| question as a possibly dense UK ex-teacher. I have often seen 
| references to "Subject 101". What precisely is a subject with this
|  title?

[Lee]:
That's a really good question and I figured the answer had to do with the
first class of the first year of college.  I did a bit of poking about and
give you this link:

http://www.slate.com/id/2149082/

It talks about the beginning of the three-digit course numbering system that
universities have.  Hope this helps.

Cheers,

Lee :-)




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Jan  7 22:27:35 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 22:27:35 -0000
Subject: "Subject 101" Was: Amusingly appropriate typo
In-Reply-To: <gk35dn+8ou3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gk3a8n+d5tt@eGroups.com>

Geoff wrote:
<snip>
> 
> On a different topic which arose from a previous post, I must ask a
 question as a possibly dense UK ex-teacher. I have often seen 
references to "Subject 101". What precisely is a subject with this  title?

Carol responds:

As Ali has noted, 101 denotes an introductory course. To provide a bit
more detail, many if not most four-year colleges and universities in
the U.S. assign course numbers according to the students' year of
study. Freshmen (first-year students) take courses with numbers in the
100s, sophomores take courses in the 200s, and so on. Of course, it
doesn't work out perfectly. You'll find sophomores in 100-level
courses and seniors in 300-level (junior or third-year) courses, and
so on. 

Sometimes, classes on similar subjects are assigned similar numbers,
so if English 101 is freshman composition, English 201 will be
sophomore composition (a class for students who feel that they need
additional writing practice or who are required by their departments
to take it because they did poorly in freshman comp). A 200-level
course may be a prerequisite for a 300-level course in the same
subject (or a 300 for a 400). The classification system is more
complex than I can explain here, but literature courses would be
assigned a different set of numbers from writing courses and
composition courses would also have a different set of numbers from
creative writing courses. Everything is (or was) nicely
compartmentalized. Or should that be "nice and compartmentalized"? ;-)

At the University of Arizona, where I taught freshman composition (and
a few other comp or lit courses) for sixteen of my eighteen years as a
university English teacher, English 101 was the standard
first-semester composition course (which taught essay writing and
research papers). Students whose writing skills were limited or
nonexistent took a remedial course (called English 100 at the
University of Arizona) students whose writing skills were
well-developed took an honors version of the course (English 103). The
second-semester  composition classes, English 102 (regular) and 104
(honors) focused on writing about literature (literary criticism),
including, again, a research paper. (I can't recall whether there was
a second-semester remedial English class. I think the 100 students
must have moved on to 101 and from there to 102.)

I hope that's not too much information, but I like to give examples
and other evidence to support my point--a practice I expected from my
composition students at any level--and, for that matter, from my lit
students in their essays as well.

BTW, Ali or someone who has recently taken university classes, does
the system still operate more or less as I've described it? I haven't
taught for ten years.

Carol, who forgot to mention that graduate courses for students
pursuing master's degrees or doctorates are numbered in the 500s and 600s 




From s_ings at yahoo.com  Wed Jan  7 22:38:35 2009
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 14:38:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Two belated Birthday Greetings!
Message-ID: <740271.43576.qm@web63404.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

*digs her way to the party room through mounds of snow and begins a franticly redecorating*

What? It's not snowing where you are? I'll happily share if you want some because we're getting buried here!

Hmm... some nice warm drinks are just the thing for those of coming in out of the storm. I'll just set that up right beside all the nibblies I've already put on the tables.

Yesterday's birthday honourees were Carolyn and Carole E. Belated birthday owls can be sent care of this list or directly to Carolyn at: carolynwhite2 at aol.com and to Carole at: siriusgeologist at yahoo.com

I just need to add the finishes touches to both cakes and we're all set. Someone crank up the music and let's get this party started!

I hope you both had wonderful days with good company, good food and many birthday goodies.

Happy Birthday, Carolyn!
Happy Birthday, Carole!

Sheryll the Birthday Elf, thankful someone else will shovel the driveway :)


      __________________________________________________________________
Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail.  Click on Options in Mail and switch to New Mail today or register for free at http://mail.yahoo.ca



From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Wed Jan  7 23:57:48 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 23:57:48 -0000
Subject: "Subject 101"
In-Reply-To: <gk3a8n+d5tt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gk3fhs+oskm@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:

Geoff:
Thanks guys.

That all made a lot of sense for me.




From vand195550 at yahoo.com  Thu Jan  8 01:48:52 2009
From: vand195550 at yahoo.com (Stephen Vandecasteele)
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 17:48:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Nice and Interesting for a Small fortune which is Pretty good.
Message-ID: <68782.25565.qm@web59403.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>




--- On Wed, 1/7/09, Carol <justcarol67 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> From: Carol <justcarol67 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Nice and Interesting for a Small fortune which is Pretty good.
> To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
> Date: Wednesday, January 7, 2009, 12:01 PM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>     
>             Stephen Vandecasteele wrote:
> 
>  
> 
> > What comes to mind  reading this entire thread is
> English 101.
> 
> 
> 
> Carol responds:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. Some of us either teach or used to teach freshman comp
> and
> 
> similar courses (I taught it for eighteen years!), and the
> impulse to
> 
> spread the gospel of grammar is still there.
> 
> 
> 
> BTW, Steve, I hope you haven't left the movie group. I
> have some
> 
> questions for you there relating to GoF and OoP (the films)
> that I'm
> 
> eager to read your responses to. And if I was ungracious in
> my post
> 
> there (wanting you to understand that the spoiler policy is
> intended
> 
> as a courtesy), please accept my apologies.

Steve Responding,

Its nothing, its a tempest in a tea kettle. I await your questions.      
> 
>     
>     
> 	
> 	 
> 	
> 	
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 	
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 	
> 	
> 
> 
> 	
> 	
> 	
> 
> 


      




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Thu Jan  8 07:42:17 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 07:42:17 -0000
Subject: Nice and Interesting for a Small fortune which is Pretty good.
In-Reply-To: <68782.25565.qm@web59403.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <gk4aop+nni6@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Stephen Vandecasteele <vand195550 at ...> 
wrote:

 Stephen Vandecasteele:

> 
> Its nothing, its a tempest in a tea kettle. I await your questions.      

Geoff:
Surely you mean a storm in a teacup?
:-)




From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Thu Jan  8 14:25:41 2009
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 14:25:41 -0000
Subject: Nice and Interesting for a Small fortune which is Pretty good.
In-Reply-To: <gk2h4p+slu0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gk52d5+4s8c@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "sistermagpie"
<sistermagpie at ...> wrote:
>
> > Kemper now:
> > I think intensifiers are a part of grammar: usually an adverb
> > adverbing another adverb.
> > 
> > ::::::::::::::::::::::
> > 
> > Unless it's some UK or other English speaking country rule.
> > 
> > As a U.S. English Teacher (secondary) I can assure you that
> > there is no such part of grammer.
> > 
> > An adverb modifying an adverb is an adverb.
> > 
> > ...
> 
> Magpie:
> I don't think he meant he were an official part of speech as 
> in "these are the 8 parts of speech." But a word can act as an 
> intensifier so the word's just descriptive--if the word is 
> intensifying something in a sentence it's an intensifier. 
> 
> As Lolly Jr. says in the schoolhouse rock song about adverbs:
> "... Suppose your house needs painting -- how are 
> you going to paint it? That's where the adverb comes in. We 
> can also give you a special intensifier ...."
> 
> -m
>

bboyminn:

Magpie is correct, I wasn't implying that 'intensifier' is a
literally defined and categorical part of English grammar. 

I was merely describing how the word 'pretty' acts when used
in the context I established. To say 'pretty good' is no 
different than saying 'good'. Pretty acts to intensify how
'good' you feel, and by extention it is, therefore, an
intensifier; and intensifier being that which intensifies.

Steve/bboyminn





From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Thu Jan  8 14:43:02 2009
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 14:43:02 -0000
Subject: Nice and Interesting for a Small fortune which is Pretty good.
In-Reply-To: <804908.30409.qm@web59416.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <gk53dm+mv2i@eGroups.com>

--- In Stephen Vandecasteele <vand195550 at ...> wrote:

>  
> >...
> Steve now,
> 
> What comes to mind  reading this entire thread is English 101.
> 
> Steve
> > 

Well, not exactly English 101, though that is certainly true,
more accurately in the context of the discussion, it is
Translation 101. 

The underlying question is, how does a foreign translator
translate 'pretty good'? "You did a pretty good job".

Literally-

'You did a beautifully good job.'

'You did a beautiful job.'

'You did a good job.'

'You did a pretty job.'

or using some other unforeseen interpretation of the statement?

or -

"That's pretty far off."

"That's a pretty nice car."

In these case, of course, it doesn't mean 'beautiful' are all,
it means very. 'That is very far off.' 'That is a very nice car.'
Again, the sentences work just fine without the 'intensifier'.
'That is far off.' 'That is a nice car.'

So, it is really about quirky things in the English language
and in common speech that are taken for granted, but which 
might cause some confusion for a translator.

Like -

nice and supple

small fortune

pretty good

and countless of others.

'Take the micky' wasn't an expression I immediately understood.

And in the UK version of the book, Fred says 'keep your pecker 
up', meaning 'take heart' or 'keep your spirits up'. In the
US, that has a whole different meaning. But I can't imagine
what the expression means to a Russian or an Italian, or how
they would interpret it. 

Steve/bboyminn





From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Thu Jan  8 15:44:12 2009
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 15:44:12 -0000
Subject: Nobel Son
In-Reply-To: <gjv1qc+i609@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gk570c+rqpv@eGroups.com>

SSSusan:
> > I just checked Yahoo!Movies, and if they're right, this isn't 
> > playing in Indy, nor even in Chicago!  What's up with that??  

Lizzie:
> Not in Indy?  Good heavens! 
> 
> Nobel Son opened at all three of Fort Wayne's multiplexes on Dec. 5 
> for 1 week; only Rave for a second week with one late night 
> showing.  Bottle Shock had the same distributor and had the same 
> arrangement with Rave.

SSSusan:
I *did* manage to see Bottle Shock.  I'd been afraid that one was 
going to be in limited release, so when I saw that it was playing in 
Lafayette (sorry, everyone else, but Lizzie will know where that 
is ;)), I took a day off of work to go see it.  (Hoot!)  And then, lo 
and behold, the following week it *did* come to my local cineplex (in 
our town of 17K).  It only stayed a week, though.

So drat it all!  I should have been paying better attention to the 
listings in early December!
 

Lizzie:
> Of course, when I saw Roger Ebert's review in the morning paper I 
> saw Nobel Son that afternoon.  Too bad you all missed AR's hairy 
> legs and plaid shorts.

SSSusan:
LOL.  I really hate to have to wait for the DVD to see this. 

Siriusly Snapey Susan





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Thu Jan  8 16:26:35 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 16:26:35 -0000
Subject: Nice and Interesting for a Small fortune which is Pretty good.
In-Reply-To: <68782.25565.qm@web59403.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <gk59fr+aid5@eGroups.com>

New Steve wrote:
> 
> Its nothing, its a tempest in a tea kettle. I await your questions.
     

Carol responds:

They're on the Movie list, message # 15699, in the third and second
paragraphs from the end (though the rest of the long post sets them up
by discussing relevant book and movie differences and why we discuss
the books on the Movie list but not vice versa). Here's a link that
will take you directly to that post:

http://movies.groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Movie/message/15699

Carol, who really does want to know which parts of the films viewers
who haven't read the books find confusing




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Thu Jan  8 16:28:38 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 16:28:38 -0000
Subject: Nice and Interesting for a Small fortune which is Pretty good.
In-Reply-To: <gk4aop+nni6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gk59jm+cjm5@eGroups.com>

Stephen Vandecasteele:
> 
> > Its nothing, its a tempest in a tea kettle. ,snip>    
> 
> Geoff:
> Surely you mean a storm in a teacup?
> :-)
>
Carol:

Not a tempest in a teapot? Do we really all say it that differently?

Carol, now wondering how Mrs. Figg would say it




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Thu Jan  8 16:51:33 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 16:51:33 -0000
Subject: Nice and Interesting for a Small fortune which is Pretty good.
In-Reply-To: <gk53dm+mv2i@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gk5aul+tgq9@eGroups.com>

Steve wrote:
> Well, not exactly English 101, though that is certainly true, more
accurately in the context of the discussion, it is Translation 101.

Carol responds:

Right. 
> 
> The underlying question is, how does a foreign translator translate
'pretty good'? "You did a pretty good job".
> 
> Literally-
> 
> 'You did a beautifully good job.'
> 
> 'You did a beautiful job.'
> 
> 'You did a good job.'
> 
> 'You did a pretty job.'
> 
> or using some other unforeseen interpretation of the statement? <snip>

Carol:
The literal translation would be, "You did a beautiful [or attractive]
good job"--easy to see why a translator unfamiliar with "pretty" as an
intensive adverb would be confused.

Steve:
> In these case, of course, it doesn't mean 'beautiful' are all, it
means very. 'That is very far off.' 'That is a very nice car.' Again,
the sentences work just fine without the 'intensifier'. 'That is far
off.' 'That is a nice car.' <snip>

Carol:
Here I would partially disagree with you. Despite their name,
intensive adverbs don't always intensify. Occasionally, they diminish
(as in "pretty" or "fairly"). "Pretty good" doesn't mean "very good."
It means fairly good, sort of good, kind of good, not bad. A pretty
good job of writing an essay would earn you a B-; a very good job
would earn you an A. (An exceptional job would earn you an A+.) But I
agree that the intensifier can be left off without *significantly*
altering the meaning. We can always use "fair" for "pretty good,"
"good" alone for "good," and "excellent" for "very good." (Editors
will often prune adverbs, which is not to say that they're never
useful and should always be cut!)

Steve:
> 
> 'Take the micky' wasn't an expression I immediately understood.
> 
> And in the UK version of the book, Fred says 'keep your pecker up',
meaning 'take heart' or 'keep your spirits up'. In the US, that has a
whole different meaning. But I can't imagine what the expression means
to a Russian or an Italian, or how they would interpret it. 

Carol responds:

I'll leave that one to zanooda or Alla! But I noticed that the
Scholastic edition of HBP (apparently) got one of those British terms
wrong. Peeves, inciting the House-Elves to fight, yells, "Stick your
fingers up his nosey, draw his cork and pull his earsies" (p.
420--"Elf Tails, about two pages before the end of the chapter).
Shouldn't that be "conk," meaning "nose"? *Is* it a typo and does it
appear in the Bloomsbury edition as well? If it's not a typo and
"cork" is correct, what does it mean?

Carol, who also stumbled over "take the mickey" out of someone but
thinks it means "tease"




From vand195550 at yahoo.com  Thu Jan  8 17:31:47 2009
From: vand195550 at yahoo.com (Stephen Vandecasteele)
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 09:31:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Nice and Interesting for a Small fortune which is Pretty good.
Message-ID: <652486.46017.qm@web59407.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>




--- On Thu, 1/8/09, Carol <justcarol67 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> From: Carol <justcarol67 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Nice and Interesting for a Small fortune which is Pretty good.
> To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
> Date: Thursday, January 8, 2009, 11:28 AM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>     
>             Stephen Vandecasteele:
> 
> > 
> 
> > > Its nothing, its a tempest in a tea kettle.
> ,snip>    
> 
> > 
> 
> > Geoff:
> 
> > Surely you mean a storm in a teacup?
> 
> > :-)
> 
> >
> 
> Carol:
> 
> 
> 
> Not a tempest in a teapot? Do we really all say it that
> differently?
> 
> 
> 
> Carol, now wondering how Mrs. Figg would say it

Steve now,

"A tenpest in a tea cup" is the proper saying.


Steve 


      




From vand195550 at yahoo.com  Thu Jan  8 17:54:12 2009
From: vand195550 at yahoo.com (Stephen Vandecasteele)
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 09:54:12 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Nice and Interesting for a Small fortune which is Pretty good.
Message-ID: <127554.46661.qm@web59410.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>




--- On Thu, 1/8/09, Geoff Bannister <gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk> wrote:

> From: Geoff Bannister <gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk>
> Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Nice and Interesting for a Small fortune which is Pretty good.
> To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
> Date: Thursday, January 8, 2009, 2:42 AM
 
> Geoff:
> 
> Surely you mean a storm in a teacup?
> 

Steve here,

No. Tempest in a tea kettle.
 


      




From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Thu Jan  8 17:57:19 2009
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 17:57:19 -0000
Subject: Nice and Interesting for a Small fortune which is Pretty good.
In-Reply-To: <gk5aul+tgq9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gk5epv+pfpb@eGroups.com>

> Carol responds:
> 
> I'll leave that one to zanooda or Alla! But I noticed that the
> Scholastic edition of HBP (apparently) got one of those British 
terms
> wrong. Peeves, inciting the House-Elves to fight, yells, "Stick your
> fingers up his nosey, draw his cork and pull his earsies" (p.
> 420--"Elf Tails, about two pages before the end of the chapter).
> Shouldn't that be "conk," meaning "nose"? *Is* it a typo and does it
> appear in the Bloomsbury edition as well? If it's not a typo and
> "cork" is correct, what does it mean?

Magpie:
The Bloomsbury edition says "cork" too. It's Peeves, so I don't think 
it's necessarily sensical. I guess he's just acting as if a person is 
a bottle that can have his cork drawn.

> Carol, who also stumbled over "take the mickey" out of someone but
> thinks it means "tease"

Magpie:
Yes, it is to tease.

-m





From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Thu Jan  8 20:10:06 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 20:10:06 -0000
Subject: Nice and Interesting for a Small fortune which is Pretty good.
In-Reply-To: <gk5aul+tgq9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gk5miu+3eu8@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:

Carol" 
> who also stumbled over "take the mickey" out of someone but
> thinks it means "tease"

Geoff: 
It means to make fun of - often in a rather malicious and hurtful way.






From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Thu Jan  8 20:14:10 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 20:14:10 -0000
Subject: Nice and Interesting for a Small fortune which is Pretty good.
In-Reply-To: <652486.46017.qm@web59407.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <gk5mqi+af56@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Stephen Vandecasteele <vand195550 at ...> 
wrote:
 
> --- On Thu, 1/8/09, Carol <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:
 
> > From: Carol <justcarol67 at ...>
> > Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Nice and Interesting for a Small fortune which is 
Pretty good.
> > To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
> > Date: Thursday, January 8, 2009, 11:28 AM

Stephen Vandecasteele:
 > > > > Its nothing, its a tempest in a tea kettle.
> > ,snip>    
 
Geoff:
> > > Surely you mean a storm in a teacup?
> > > :-)

Carol: 
> > Not a tempest in a teapot? Do we really all say it that
> > differently?
 
> > Carol, now wondering how Mrs. Figg would say it
 
Steve:
> "A tempest in a tea cup" is the proper saying.

Geoff:
(deleting all the unwanted ">")

The UK version, which I think Mrs. Figg would also use, is 
the one I quoted.






From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Thu Jan  8 23:20:11 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 23:20:11 -0000
Subject: Nice and Interesting for a Small fortune which is Pretty good.
In-Reply-To: <gk5mqi+af56@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gk61nc+unlv@eGroups.com>

Stephen Vandecasteele:
>  > > > > Its nothing, its a tempest in a tea kettle.
> > > <snip>    
>  
> Geoff:
> > > > Surely you mean a storm in a teacup?
> > > > :-)
> 
> Carol: 
> > > Not a tempest in a teapot? Do we really all say it that differently?
>  
> > > Carol, now wondering how Mrs. Figg would say it
>  
> Steve:
> > "A tempest in a tea cup" is the proper saying.
> 
> Geoff:
> (deleting all the unwanted ">")
> 
> The UK version, which I think Mrs. Figg would also use, is the one I
quoted.
>
Carol responds:
But Mrs. Figg always gives a WW twist to her sayings: "The cat's among
the pixies again," for example. So I wondered how she would alter that
one to make it different from what a British Muggle like Petunia would
say.

As for which is the "proper" saying (to quote Steve, above), I think
our four variants amply demonstrate that the "proper" version is
regional. I've never heard any version except "tempest in a teapot"
till now--never "tea cup." I'm guessing that mine is the standard
American version. "Tea kettle," I assume, is the British version. As
for "storm in a tea cup," it doesn't even alliterate! At least Steve's
"proper" version alliterates. (It's probably an American variant like
mine.)

I did a Google search with these results:

Storm in a teacup, 162,000 pages
Tempest in a teapot, 115,000 pages
Tempest in a teacup, 35,000 pages
Tempest in a tea kettle, 163 pages (Tempest in a teakettle, 462 pages)

That makes Geoff's (British) version the winner and my (American)
version a close second. Steve's "proper" version is a weak third, and
New Steve's version (which also sounds British to me) a feeble fourth.
All, however, appear to be recognized variants or they wouldn't show
up on Google. Not that Google is by any means the ultimate authority,
of course, but it provides a good indication of the relative frequency
or popularity of each version.

Some of you may enjoy this British writer's brief commentary on the
phrase:

http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-tem1.htm

Nice to think that the (alliterative) American version probably came
first. Unless, of course, we consider the Latin version as the
ancestor of them all. (The Romans, not being tea drinkers, didn't have
teapots *or* teacups.)

Carol, wondering how zanooda would translate *this* idiom regardless
of variant 







From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Thu Jan  8 23:23:31 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 23:23:31 -0000
Subject: Nice and Interesting for a Small fortune which is Pretty good.
In-Reply-To: <gk61nc+unlv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gk61tj+j1ig@eGroups.com>

Carol again:

Just a note regarding any inconsistencies in my previous post. The
first part is my speculations. The second part is my findings after a
bit of Internet research (including a visit to Steve's friend, Wikipedia).

Carol, too lazy too quote the inconsistent portions of my own post




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Thu Jan  8 23:29:18 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 23:29:18 -0000
Subject: Tempest in different cups WAS :Re: Nice and Interesting for a Small fortune
In-Reply-To: <gk61nc+unlv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gk628e+t6hl@eGroups.com>

Carol:
<HUGE SNIP>
I did a Google search with these results:

Storm in a teacup, 162,000 pages
Tempest in a teapot, 115,000 pages
Tempest in a teacup, 35,000 pages
Tempest in a tea kettle, 163 pages (Tempest in a teakettle, 462 pages)
<another huge one>
> Carol, wondering how zanooda would translate *this* idiom regardless
> of variant
>

Alla:

Not Zanooda, but russian translation that I am familiar will be tempest 
in the glass of water, I believe. Now I am wondering whether it is a 
translation or russian equivalent.





From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Thu Jan  8 23:43:16 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 23:43:16 -0000
Subject: Nice and Interesting for a Small fortune which is Pretty good.
In-Reply-To: <gk61nc+unlv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gk632k+4lh7@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:

Carol: 
> As for which is the "proper" saying, I think our four variants amply 
> demonstrate that the "proper" version is
> regional. I've never heard any version except "tempest in a teapot"
> till now--never "tea cup." I'm guessing that mine is the standard
> American version. "Tea kettle," I assume, is the British version. As
> for "storm in a tea cup," it doesn't even alliterate! At least Steve's
> "proper" version alliterates. (It's probably an American variant like
> mine.)
> 
> I did a Google search with these results:
> 
> Storm in a teacup, 162,000 pages
> Tempest in a teapot, 115,000 pages
> Tempest in a teacup, 35,000 pages
> Tempest in a tea kettle, 163 pages (Tempest in a teakettle, 462 pages)
> 
> That makes Geoff's (British) version the winner and my (American)
> version a close second. Steve's "proper" version is a weak third, and
> New Steve's version (which also sounds British to me) a feeble fourth.

Geoff:
It may sound British but it ain't! In the UK, you can have "kettles", "teapots" 
but not "tea kettles".




From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Thu Jan  8 23:52:19 2009
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 23:52:19 -0000
Subject: Nice and Interesting ...Pretty good. - Tea and Coffee
In-Reply-To: <gk632k+4lh7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gk63jj+5vo6@eGroups.com>

---  "Geoff Bannister" <gbannister10 at ...> wrote:
>
> ...
> 
> Geoff:
> It may sound British but it ain't! In the UK, you can have 
> "kettles", "teapots" but not "tea kettles".
>

Let me guess, Kettles heat the water, and teapots serve the
tea. 

In the USA, we have coffee pots usually rather big, and tea
kettles which are smaller. Coffee pots brew/percolate coffee, and
metal tea kettles heat water for whatever purpose. 

We do have tea pots, which are small ceramic pots for brewing
and serving tea. Keep in mind that we use almost exclusively
tea bags. Lipton being the most popular. Though a few organic
diehards still use loose tea, but very few. 

Steve/bboyminn




From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Fri Jan  9 01:03:58 2009
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 01:03:58 -0000
Subject: Nice and Interesting ...Pretty good. - Tea and Coffee
In-Reply-To: <gk63jj+5vo6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gk67pu+ttkb@eGroups.com>

Steve:
> Let me guess, Kettles heat the water, and teapots serve the
> tea. 
> 
> In the USA, we have coffee pots usually rather big, and tea
> kettles which are smaller. Coffee pots brew/percolate coffee, and
> metal tea kettles heat water for whatever purpose. 
> 
> We do have tea pots, which are small ceramic pots for brewing
> and serving tea. Keep in mind that we use almost exclusively
> tea bags. Lipton being the most popular. Though a few organic
> diehards still use loose tea, but very few. 

Magpie:
Yesterday a tin of loose tea I had hurled itself off the shelf when no 
one was in the kitchen and exploded all over the floor. I suspect 
poltergeist activity. It was a mark against my use of loose tea there.

-m (who usually uses teabags--but much prefers Tetley's to Lipton)




From vand195550 at yahoo.com  Fri Jan  9 01:10:54 2009
From: vand195550 at yahoo.com (Stephen Vandecasteele)
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 17:10:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Nice and Interesting for a Small fortune which is Pretty good.
Message-ID: <765801.11699.qm@web59410.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>




> 
> 
> 
> Geoff:
> 
> It may sound British but it ain't! In the UK, you can
> have "kettles", "teapots" 
> 
> but not "tea kettles".

Steve here,

The saying is "a tempest in a tea pot". As for the use of "ain't" you would be better off substituting "isn't".
 


      




From drdara at yahoo.com  Fri Jan  9 01:48:37 2009
From: drdara at yahoo.com (danielle dassero)
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 17:48:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Wizard Rock
References: <8CB3DAD74C32BE6-DBC-F5B@mblk-d19.sysops.aol.com> <380390.51299.qm@web65413.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <8CB3E810367D00B-510-FC9@webmail-dd09.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <698939.31075.qm@web65405.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>





Thanks for the help !? May I ask where on I Tunes ?? I searched but had no luck.? Thanks !!

-- celticfury

-----Original Message-----
From: danielle dassero <drdara at yahoo. com>
To: HPFGU-OTChatter@ yahoogroups. com
Sent: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 5:06 pm
Subject: Re: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Wizard Rock

Hi !? I'm new to the group and was wondering if anyone listens to Wizard Rock ??? Is there anyone out there who knows how to get a hold of CD's of the MudBloods ??? They don't have them for sale anymone, and I really like their stuff !!? Thanks !!

-- celticfury

Itunes is the only place I know of. I myself love the Mudbloods too.

Danielle 
 
 When you open up itunes on your computer, click on itunes store, and type in The Mudbloods in the search engine, also here is the Mudbloods myspace page, http://www.myspace.com/mudbloods, 
Didn't find any albums, just found individual songs. I joined the wizard wrock club of the month last year, http://www.wizardrockclub.com/news, adn thru there you can get albums, money goes to charity, that doesn't get sold anywhere else. Hope that helps.

Danielle 


      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From jnoyl at aim.com  Fri Jan  9 03:45:00 2009
From: jnoyl at aim.com (JLyon)
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 20:45:00 -0700
Subject: Amusingly appropriate typo
Message-ID: <6CC86505-1F9A-4576-9B40-943F3712ADD3@aim.com>

Re: English 101
Some colleges use the 100 numbers for freshmen/introductory courses,  
200 number for sophmore, etc.
Thus, at these schools, the most basic class in any subject was 101.
JL



From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Fri Jan  9 04:01:31 2009
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 04:01:31 -0000
Subject: Tempest in different cups WAS :Re: Nice and Interesting for a Small fortune
In-Reply-To: <gk628e+t6hl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gk6i6r+75hm@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214"
<dumbledore11214 at ...> wrote:

> Not Zanooda, but Russian translation that I am familiar will be 
> tempest in the glass of water, I believe. Now I am wondering 
> whether it is a translation or Russian equivalent.


zanooda:

I remember reading somewhere that our "tempest in a glass of water"
was a translation from French: "une tempete dans un verre d'eau". It
is kind of assumed that some French philosopher (Montesquieu?) used
this expression first, but I'm not sure I really believe it. How can
we really know who was the first to say something :-)? There is a
similar expression in almost every language, so it's quite possible
they all just appeared independently, IMO :-). 






From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Fri Jan  9 04:22:13 2009
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 04:22:13 -0000
Subject: "Nice and"  one more time.
Message-ID: <gk6jdl+9u6v@eGroups.com>

One last question about "nice and": we can use it to characterize
*only* inanimate objects/nouns, right? It wouldn't work to describe
people, would it? If a girl is "nice and pretty", it means that she is
pretty and she is *also* nice, not that she is
pleasantly/agreeably/perfectly (and whatever else it was :-)) pretty,
right :-)?


zanooda, thinking that "nice" is a pretty vague word ...






From kempermentor at yahoo.com  Fri Jan  9 04:29:55 2009
From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kempermentor)
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 04:29:55 -0000
Subject: Nice and Interesting ...Pretty good. - Tea and Coffee
In-Reply-To: <gk63jj+5vo6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gk6js3+qc26@eGroups.com>


> Steve/bboymin
> We do have tea pots, which are small ceramic pots for brewing
> and serving tea. Keep in mind that we use almost exclusively
> tea bags. Lipton being the most popular. Though a few organic
> diehards still use loose tea, but very few. 

Kemper now:
Lipton is prolly the most popular, but the taste lacks flavorful. 
When I get a teabag (teehee), I prefer Tazo or Yogi, but I'm sure
there's better.  Though, I prefer coffee (not starbucks! their
coffee's bitter).

Kemper




From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Fri Jan  9 04:34:38 2009
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 04:34:38 -0000
Subject: "Nice and"  one more time.
In-Reply-To: <gk6jdl+9u6v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gk6k4u+iidm@eGroups.com>

Zanooda:
> One last question about "nice and": we can use it to characterize
> *only* inanimate objects/nouns, right? It wouldn't work to describe
> people, would it? If a girl is "nice and pretty", it means that she is
> pretty and she is *also* nice, not that she is
> pleasantly/agreeably/perfectly (and whatever else it was :-)) pretty,
> right :-)?

Magpie:
Nope, you can also use the expression to refer to humans. You probably 
wouldn't say "nice and pretty" about a girl, but you might use it with 
a more specific adjective. For instance, somebody could say about a 
girl: "Just the way I like them--nice and curvy" or "nice and rich." 
But "nice and [whatever]" would have the same meaning when applied to a 
person. (It sounds a bit sleazy in those cases, though!)

Although, just to make things confusing, you absolutely could say the 
exact same terms without meaning the expression. You could say "She is 
nice and pretty" meaning that she is both pretty and a pleasant/nice 
person." But if you were saying that you would probably instinctively 
say "pretty and nice" instead of "nice and pretty" so it wouldn't sound 
like the expression.

-m




From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Fri Jan  9 04:37:34 2009
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 04:37:34 -0000
Subject: Nice and Interesting for a Small fortune which is Pretty good.
In-Reply-To: <gk53dm+mv2i@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gk6kae+dij2@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <bboyminn at ...> wrote:

> And in the UK version of the book, Fred says 'keep your pecker 
> up', meaning 'take heart' or 'keep your spirits up'. In the
> US, that has a whole different meaning. But I can't imagine
> what the expression means to a Russian or an Italian, or how
> they would interpret it. 


zanooda;

I don't know about Italian, but they translated it into Russian
correctly. I have no idea how it is now, but in my day they taught us
"British" English in Russia. If it is still the case, the translators
probably wouldn't even know what "pecker" means in "American" :-). I
myself only found out because of all the discussions about differences
between UK and US editions.




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Fri Jan  9 07:44:41 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 07:44:41 -0000
Subject: Nice and Interesting for a Small fortune which is Pretty good.
In-Reply-To: <765801.11699.qm@web59410.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <gk6v99+totk@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Stephen Vandecasteele <vand195550 at ...> 
wrote:

Geoff:
> > It may sound British but it ain't! In the UK, you can
> > have "kettles", "teapots" 
> > 
> > but not "tea kettles".
 
Steve:
 
> The saying is "a tempest in a tea pot". As for the use of "ain't" you would be better off 
substituting "isn't".

Geoff:
Oh dear <sigh>.

Wotcher Steve!

Do I have to use a smiley every time I slip in a small joke? 
Regular members of OTC and Main know that I'm in the UK 
and that I lived in London for over 40 years so although 
I'm not a "native" of the city, I can slip in the odd 
Cockneyism.

Cor luv a duck.








From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Fri Jan  9 07:48:56 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 07:48:56 -0000
Subject: "Nice and"  one more time.
In-Reply-To: <gk6k4u+iidm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gk6vh8+71lp@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "sistermagpie" <sistermagpie at ...> wrote:
>
> Zanooda:
> > One last question about "nice and": we can use it to characterize
> > *only* inanimate objects/nouns, right? It wouldn't work to describe
> > people, would it? If a girl is "nice and pretty", it means that she is
> > pretty and she is *also* nice, not that she is
> > pleasantly/agreeably/perfectly (and whatever else it was :-)) pretty,
> > right :-)?
> 
> Magpie:
> Nope, you can also use the expression to refer to humans. You probably 
> wouldn't say "nice and pretty" about a girl, but you might use it with 
> a more specific adjective. For instance, somebody could say about a 
> girl: "Just the way I like them--nice and curvy" or "nice and rich." 
> But "nice and [whatever]" would have the same meaning when applied to a 
> person. (It sounds a bit sleazy in those cases, though!)
> 
> Although, just to make things confusing, you absolutely could say the 
> exact same terms without meaning the expression. You could say "She is 
> nice and pretty" meaning that she is both pretty and a pleasant/nice 
> person." But if you were saying that you would probably instinctively 
> say "pretty and nice" instead of "nice and pretty" so it wouldn't sound 
> like the expression.

Geoff:
Which pretty well sums it up.
:-)

Turning for a moment to teabags, we use Tetley or Typhoo usually. 
Interesting that some names seem to have come up on both sides of 
the Atlantic.




From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Fri Jan  9 15:03:50 2009
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 15:03:50 -0000
Subject: Nice and Interesting ...Pretty good. - Tea and Coffee
In-Reply-To: <gk6js3+qc26@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gk7p0m+j0ei@eGroups.com>

Steve/bboymin
> > We do have tea pots, which are small ceramic pots for brewing
> > and serving tea. Keep in mind that we use almost exclusively
> > tea bags. Lipton being the most popular. Though a few organic
> > diehards still use loose tea, but very few. 
 
Kemper now:
> Lipton is prolly the most popular, but the taste lacks flavorful. 
> When I get a teabag (teehee), I prefer Tazo or Yogi, but I'm sure
> there's better.  Though, I prefer coffee (not starbucks! their
> coffee's bitter).


SSSusan:
And I actually prefer Luzianne to Lipton, though we tend to make iced 
tea with it more than hot tea.

And, Kemper, I agree about Starbuck's.  While I like their "souped 
up" stuff (a decaf mocha latte, to be precise), when having just a 
straight cuppa, I prefer Dunkin' Donuts. 

Siriusly Snapey Susan





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri Jan  9 17:03:46 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 17:03:46 -0000
Subject: Tempest in a teapot/cup/kettle Was: Nice and Interesting
In-Reply-To: <765801.11699.qm@web59410.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <gk801i+gdqj@eGroups.com>

New Steve wrote:
> 
> The saying is "a tempest in a tea pot". As for the use of "ain't"
you would be better off substituting "isn't".

Carol responds:
As Geoff has already indicated, he was just joking with his use of
"ain't." No one on this list would seriously use that word, but we
might say "Ain't life grand?" or some such thing just being silly or
casual among friends.

But I'm a bit confused. Aren't you the one who said that the
expression is "tempest in a tea kettle"? That's how this interesting
little discussion got started. And, as I noted in a previous post, the
saying has a number of variants, none of which is technically "right"
(though "tempest in a teapot" seems to have preceded the other English
versions).

Carol, who doesn't own a teapot and uses her tea kettle to heat water
for hot chocolate




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Fri Jan  9 17:41:10 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 17:41:10 -0000
Subject: Tempest in a teapot/cup/kettle and things
In-Reply-To: <gk801i+gdqj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gk827m+qas2@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:

> Carol:
> who doesn't own a teapot and uses her tea kettle to heat water
> for hot chocolate

Geoff:
I heat up my hot chocolate in the microwave. That way, I use the 
exact amount of water (and a splash of milk) I need and so help to 
save the environment.

<exit looking rather smug with his mug>




From vand195550 at yahoo.com  Fri Jan  9 17:44:00 2009
From: vand195550 at yahoo.com (Stephen Vandecasteele)
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 09:44:00 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Tempest in a teapot/cup/kettle Was: Nice and Interesting
Message-ID: <753552.59683.qm@web59406.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>




--- On Fri, 1/9/09, Carol <justcarol67 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> From: Carol <justcarol67 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Tempest in a teapot/cup/kettle Was: Nice and Interesting
> To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
> Date: Friday, January 9, 2009, 12:03 PM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>     
>             New Steve wrote:
> 
> > 
> 
> > The saying is "a tempest in a tea pot". As
> for the use of "ain't"
> 
> you would be better off substituting
> "isn't".
> 
> 
> 
> Carol responds:
> 
> As Geoff has already indicated, he was just joking with his
> use of
> 
> "ain't." No one on this list would seriously
> use that word, but we
> 
> might say "Ain't life grand?" or some such
> thing just being silly or
> 
> casual among friends.
> 
> 
> 
> But I'm a bit confused. Aren't you the one who said
> that the
> 
> expression is "tempest in a tea kettle"?
> That's how this interesting
> 
> little discussion got started. And, as I noted in a
> previous post, the
> 
> saying has a number of variants, none of which is
> technically "right"
> 
> (though "tempest in a teapot" seems to have
> preceded the other English
> 
> versions).
> 
> 
> 
> Carol, who doesn't own a teapot and uses her tea kettle
> to heat water
> 
> for hot chocolate

Steve is still waiting for your questions on GOF and OOTP?

Steve
> 
> 
> 
> 
>       
> 
>     
>     
> 	
> 	 
> 	
> 	
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 	
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 	
> 	
> 
> 
> 	
> 	
> 	
> 
> 


      




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri Jan  9 18:34:36 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 18:34:36 -0000
Subject: "Tempest in a teapot"--a new variant
Message-ID: <gk85bs+7k0d@eGroups.com>

I just encountered a new variant of "tempest in a teapot" in a British
article on, appropriately enough, the PG rating of the HBP film.
(That's the U.S. rating; it hasn't been rated in the UK yet.) It does
seem odd to me to give HBP, which has that Sectumsempra scene and an
actual killing, not to mention the Inferi, a PG rating when GoF and
OoP were rated PG13 (roughly equivalent to 12A in Britain), but the
author of the article calls it "a bit of a cafuddle over nothing."
Those Brits. Gotta love 'em for the expressions they come up with."
I've heard of "kerfuffle" (wasn't that somewhere in the HP books?) but
not "caduffle." That's a bit of all right, old boy! (Okay, obviously
I'm not British.)

Anyway, I liked the way our topic tied in with our raison d'etre. :-)

Carol, who needs to know, apropos of nothing in this post, whether
it's possible to record on a VHS tape or DVD from DirecTV




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri Jan  9 18:41:20 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 18:41:20 -0000
Subject: Tempest in a teapot/cup/kettle and things
In-Reply-To: <gk827m+qas2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gk85og+ls99@eGroups.com>

Carol earlier:
> > who doesn't own a teapot and uses her tea kettle to heat water for
hot chocolate
> 
> Geoff:
> I heat up my hot chocolate in the microwave. That way, I use the
exact amount of water (and a splash of milk) I need and so help to
save the environment.
> 
> <exit looking rather smug with his mug>

Carol again:

So do I, sometimes. But the steam from the teakettle provides a touch
of added humidity to my dry apartment, and I use the heated water for
other things (like instant oatmeal--I can hear the groans from food
purists already!). And I don't add milk to my hot chocolate, so that
part doesn't matter to me.

Of course, the microwave does have another advantage. If you leave the
room and forget that you're heating the water, you won't start a fire!
I tend to be paranoid about things like that.

Carol, now hungry for hot chocolate with melted marshmallows





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri Jan  9 18:54:12 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 18:54:12 -0000
Subject: Carol's questions for New Steve Was: Tempest in a teapot/cup/kettle
In-Reply-To: <753552.59683.qm@web59406.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <gk86gk+jkua@eGroups.com>


> Steve is still waiting for your questions on GOF and OOTP?

Carol responds:

Hm. I noted that they were posted on the Movie list and gave you the
link. It seems more appropriate to discuss those questions there.
Here's the link again:

http://movies.groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Movie/message/15699

If you've left the Movie group or prefer not to read the whole post to
get to the questions, I'll quote that portion of the post here:

"To return to GoF, I wonder--and New Steve is the right person to tell
me--how intelligible the Barty Jr. plot is to those who haven't read
the books. Was it confusing to have "Professor Moody" show up again in
the OoP film when he had been revealed as an imposter named Barty
Crouch, Jr., in the previous film? Was it clear who the real Alastor
Moody was and what happened to him? (Why call the real Moody
"professor" in OoP when he never actually taught?)

"Is it clear to you what happened to the Longbottoms, Neville's
parents? Yes, they were Crucio'd (as Neville states in the OoP film),
but so was Harry near the end of GoF (film and book), and his Crucio
is not regarded as a fate worse than death (Sirius Black's comment to
Harry when he shows him the photo of the old Order--never mind the
alterations in *that* scene). Do you understand from the films alone
what happened to the Longbottoms that would make Neville (in the film
version) want revenge? Also, is it confusing that Barty Jr. is found
guilty of the crime in GoF, yet OoP shifts the blame to Bellatrix
Lestrange?

"Those are points in which, it seems to me, the films would have
benefitted from following the books more closely."

I really am curious as to how a person who hasn't read the books
reacts to these scenes. The original post explains more about how the
film treatment of Barty Jr. differs from the book and why that's
important to some of us.

Carol, hoping that it's okay to discuss the films in some detail on
the OT list (List Elves, what should we do here?)




From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Fri Jan  9 20:09:15 2009
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 20:09:15 -0000
Subject: One more  language question.
Message-ID: <gk8atb+ome1@eGroups.com>

Hey guys, a have a small question about the word "fancy". Actually, I
asked a question about this word before, especially about the British
meanings of it and I had my answer (thanks, Geoff :-)), but here it
goes again :-). When DD says in PS/SS "Fancy seeing you here,
Professor McGonagall" (Ch.1, p.9 Am.ed. or p.13 Br.ed.), which meaning
of the word is it? Does it mean something like "It is surprising to
see you here"? Is it the same meaning as in "Fancy that!" expression?
Confirmation needed :-). Thanks!


zanooda 




From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Fri Jan  9 20:43:25 2009
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 20:43:25 -0000
Subject: One more  language question.
In-Reply-To: <gk8atb+ome1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gk8ctd+10dd7@eGroups.com>

> Hey guys, a have a small question about the word "fancy". Actually, I
> asked a question about this word before, especially about the British
> meanings of it and I had my answer (thanks, Geoff :-)), but here it
> goes again :-). When DD says in PS/SS "Fancy seeing you here,
> Professor McGonagall" (Ch.1, p.9 Am.ed. or p.13 Br.ed.), which meaning
> of the word is it? Does it mean something like "It is surprising to
> see you here"? Is it the same meaning as in "Fancy that!" expression?
> Confirmation needed :-). Thanks!

Magpie:
That expression does carry the "fancy that" expression (when "fancy 
that" means "imagine that" conveying surprise). Though it's often used 
in a way where the surprise is fake--exactly the way Dumbledore is 
using it. He's saying, "Fancy meeting you here," to knowingly suggest 
that it should be a surprise but it isn't because he knows that it's 
not a coincidence that he's met here there. Like he's playing along. 
But it could also be used to express genuine surprise, in the sense 
of, "So we went to Barbados and there were our next door neighbors. 
Fancy meeting them there!" Definitely not the meaning of fancy that 
means "like" (as in "fancy a piece of cake?")

-m




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Fri Jan  9 23:13:34 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 23:13:34 -0000
Subject: One more  language question.
In-Reply-To: <gk8atb+ome1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gk8lmu+p8fu@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "zanooda2" <zanooda2 at ...> wrote:

zanooda:
> Hey guys, a have a small question about the word "fancy". Actually, I
> asked a question about this word before, especially about the British
> meanings of it and I had my answer (thanks, Geoff :-)), but here it
> goes again :-). When DD says in PS/SS "Fancy seeing you here,
> Professor McGonagall" (Ch.1, p.9 Am.ed. or p.13 Br.ed.), which meaning
> of the word is it? Does it mean something like "It is surprising to
> see you here"? Is it the same meaning as in "Fancy that!" expression?
> Confirmation needed :-). Thanks!

Geoff:
Yup. It's an expression of surprise: Fancy meeting you here/fancy them 
doing that/fancy that etc.

Not to be confused with: Would you fancy an ice cream?/Do you fancy 
going to the cinema?

You would recognise which "fancy" you have encountered by the context.




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Fri Jan  9 23:16:51 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 23:16:51 -0000
Subject: Tempest in a teapot/cup/kettle and things
In-Reply-To: <gk85og+ls99@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gk8lt3+8ioi@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:
>
> Carol earlier:
> > > who doesn't own a teapot and uses her tea kettle to heat water for
> hot chocolate
> > 
> > Geoff:
> > I heat up my hot chocolate in the microwave. That way, I use the
> exact amount of water (and a splash of milk) I need and so help to
> save the environment.
> > 
> > <exit looking rather smug with his mug>
> 
> Carol again:
> 
> So do I, sometimes. But the steam from the teakettle provides a touch
> of added humidity to my dry apartment, and I use the heated water for
> other things (like instant oatmeal--I can hear the groans from food
> purists already!). And I don't add milk to my hot chocolate, so that
> part doesn't matter to me.
> 
> Of course, the microwave does have another advantage. If you leave the
> room and forget that you're heating the water, you won't start a fire!
> I tend to be paranoid about things like that.
 
Geoff:
In my case, it depends on the brand of hot chocolate. Some brands need 
it in the same way while some  need extra demerara sugar because they 
are not quite sweet enough for my taste..
 
> Carol, now hungry for hot chocolate with melted marshmallows

Geoff:
Well, go and get some, girl!!
:-))




From alexisnguyen at gmail.com  Fri Jan  9 23:28:15 2009
From: alexisnguyen at gmail.com (P. Alexis Nguyen)
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 18:28:15 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Nice and Interesting ...Pretty good. - Tea and Coffee
In-Reply-To: <gk7p0m+j0ei@eGroups.com>
References: <gk6js3+qc26@eGroups.com> <gk7p0m+j0ei@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b6e131bf0901091528i61afb14h294f99613d9f7866@mail.gmail.com>

Steve/bboymin
> We do have tea pots, which are small ceramic pots for brewing
> and serving tea. Keep in mind that we use almost exclusively
> tea bags. Lipton being the most popular. Though a few organic
> diehards still use loose tea, but very few.

Ali:
I resent being called an organic diehard!  :)  Nah.  I think tea bags
are popular in the US because the US is mainly a coffee nation, as
proven by the millions of independent coffee shops that pop up around
me each day (despite this "dying economy" that I know exists but can't
find proof of it in my daily life), so people don't care as much about
tea.  However, that's changing - since my discovery of the "Two Leaves
and a Bud" brand, I've had to admit that there are better tea bags
being made these days.  (Hooray for convenience coming to the tea
world!)


SSSusan:
> And, Kemper, I agree about Starbuck's. While I like their "souped
> up" stuff (a decaf mocha latte, to be precise), when having just a
> straight cuppa, I prefer Dunkin' Donuts.

Ali:
If I want a straight cup of black tea, I've got several pounds of
extremely good coffee in my apt, but I'm with you for that souped up
stuff.  I've even got the Starbucks gold membership to prove it.
(What can I say?  I just prefer the souped up stuff!!!)  Such yummy
goodness ... too bad it's so obscenely calorie laden!

~Ali, who now may have to stop at Starbucks for some coffee on her way home

PS  I have a water kettle (which is electric so may not be able to
participate in this conversation anyway) and have never heard the term
tea kettle.



From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Fri Jan  9 23:35:00 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 23:35:00 -0000
Subject: Nice and Interesting ...Pretty good. - Tea and Coffee
In-Reply-To: <b6e131bf0901091528i61afb14h294f99613d9f7866@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <gk8mv4+incj@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "P. Alexis Nguyen" <alexisnguyen at ...> 
wrote:
>
> Steve/bboymin
> > We do have tea pots, which are small ceramic pots for brewing
> > and serving tea. Keep in mind that we use almost exclusively
> > tea bags. Lipton being the most popular. Though a few organic
> > diehards still use loose tea, but very few.
> 
> Ali:
> I resent being called an organic diehard!  :)  Nah.  I think tea bags
> are popular in the US because the US is mainly a coffee nation, as
> proven by the millions of independent coffee shops that pop up around
> me each day (despite this "dying economy" that I know exists but can't
> find proof of it in my daily life), so people don't care as much about
> tea.  However, that's changing - since my discovery of the "Two Leaves
> and a Bud" brand, I've had to admit that there are better tea bags
> being made these days.  (Hooray for convenience coming to the tea
> world!)

Geoff:
Well, here in the UK, I don't think we're mainly a coffee nation although 
the great majority of folk use teabags and have done so for many years; .

 
> SSSusan:
> > And, Kemper, I agree about Starbuck's. While I like their "souped
> > up" stuff (a decaf mocha latte, to be precise), when having just a
> > straight cuppa, I prefer Dunkin' Donuts.
> 
> Ali:
> If I want a straight cup of black tea, I've got several pounds of
> extremely good coffee in my apt, but I'm with you for that souped up
> stuff.  I've even got the Starbucks gold membership to prove it.
> (What can I say?  I just prefer the souped up stuff!!!)  Such yummy
> goodness ... too bad it's so obscenely calorie laden!
> 
> ~Ali, who now may have to stop at Starbucks for some coffee on her way home
> 
> PS  I have a water kettle (which is electric so may not be able to
> participate in this conversation anyway) and have never heard the term
> tea kettle.

Geoff:
Silly question but why call it a water kettle? That's what kettles are for 
surely. And electric kettles have to be considered since there are so 
many of them.






From alexisnguyen at gmail.com  Fri Jan  9 23:38:11 2009
From: alexisnguyen at gmail.com (P. Alexis Nguyen)
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 18:38:11 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] "Tempest in a teapot"--a new variant
In-Reply-To: <gk85bs+7k0d@eGroups.com>
References: <gk85bs+7k0d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b6e131bf0901091538k2f592754v1345ae132b697d94@mail.gmail.com>

> Carol, who needs to know, apropos of nothing in this post, whether
> it's possible to record on a VHS tape or DVD from DirecTV

Yes, this is possible.  Google "record from directtv" or call
DirectTV.  Unlike my stupid cable company (Comcast), you'll be able to
good some assistance from either method.

The basic gist of it is that you can record while viewing (aka the
VCR/DVR sits between the cable/dish box and the TV, intercepts the
signal and records it).  I'm not entirely certain that direct transfer
is possible (aka plugging in a USB/Firewire cord and pulling off
data), but someone may have figure it out by now, especially if your
DirectTV box is newer.

~Alexis



From s_ings at yahoo.com  Fri Jan  9 23:42:54 2009
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 15:42:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Nice and Interesting ...Pretty good. - Tea and Coffee
In-Reply-To: <b6e131bf0901091528i61afb14h294f99613d9f7866@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <817496.62007.qm@web63403.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

> Steve/bboymin
> > We do have tea pots, which are small ceramic pots for
> brewing
> > and serving tea. Keep in mind that we use almost
> exclusively
> > tea bags. Lipton being the most popular. Though a few
> organic
> > diehards still use loose tea, but very few.
> 
> Ali:
> I resent being called an organic diehard!  :)  Nah.  I
> think tea bags
> are popular in the US because the US is mainly a coffee
> nation, as
> proven by the millions of independent coffee shops that pop
> up around
> me each day (despite this "dying economy" that I
> know exists but can't
> find proof of it in my daily life), so people don't
> care as much about
> tea.  However, that's changing - since my discovery of
> the "Two Leaves
> and a Bud" brand, I've had to admit that there are
> better tea bags
> being made these days.  (Hooray for convenience coming to
> the tea
> world!)
> 
Sheryll:

I'm definitely not an organic diehard, just someone who's rediscovering loose tea. I like the fact that using loose tea gives me more varieties of teas to drink than boxed teabags do.

Now that I'm getting back into loose tea I've been gifted a very nice box of bagged tea in assorted flavours. Some of the grandkids gave it to my grandmother for Christmas. Since she drinks neither tea or coffee they brought it home to me. 
> 
> SSSusan:
> > And, Kemper, I agree about Starbuck's. While I
> like their "souped
> > up" stuff (a decaf mocha latte, to be precise),
> when having just a
> > straight cuppa, I prefer Dunkin' Donuts.
> 
> Ali:
> If I want a straight cup of black tea, I've got several
> pounds of
> extremely good coffee in my apt, but I'm with you for
> that souped up
> stuff.  I've even got the Starbucks gold membership to
> prove it.
> (What can I say?  I just prefer the souped up stuff!!!) 
> Such yummy
> goodness ... too bad it's so obscenely calorie laden!
> 
> ~Ali, who now may have to stop at Starbucks for some coffee
> on her way home
> 
> PS  I have a water kettle (which is electric so may not be
> able to
> participate in this conversation anyway) and have never
> heard the term
> tea kettle.
> 
Sheryll:

I like Starbucks fancy stuff (decaf only, though, since I'm not supposed to have caffiene) but not their regular coffee. I asked about the bitterness of the coffee and was told it was because they dark roast all their beans. Fair enough explanation, though not all coffee is good when dark roasted. When I want just a regular coffee, nothing beats a Timmie's decaf double/double. *wonders if Mary Ann is reading because she'll understand that one*

To me, a tea kettle is one that's set on the stove for boiling water. Ali, what you're refering to as a water kettle we call an electric kettle. 

Sheryll




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From alexisnguyen at gmail.com  Fri Jan  9 23:49:49 2009
From: alexisnguyen at gmail.com (P. Alexis Nguyen)
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 18:49:49 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Nice and Interesting ...Pretty good. - Tea and Coffee
In-Reply-To: <gk8mv4+incj@eGroups.com>
References: <b6e131bf0901091528i61afb14h294f99613d9f7866@mail.gmail.com>
	 <gk8mv4+incj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b6e131bf0901091549t1960b2f3i9bbaca307b6793b8@mail.gmail.com>

Geoff:
> Silly question but why call it a water kettle? That's what kettles are for
> surely. And electric kettles have to be considered since there are so
> many of them.

Ali:
I'm not really sure.  I've only ever heard water kettle.  I personally
just say that I'm boiling water, making tea, putting on some water
(which is rarely accurate since I technically "plug in," not put on
anything), etc.  I can't really recall the last time I used the term
kettle when not in reference to popcorn.

I grew up in the Midwest of the US (and was taught British English
prior to that) if that helps identify my quirk at all.  :)


Sheryll:
> I like Starbucks fancy stuff (decaf only, though, since I'm not supposed to
> have caffiene) but not their regular coffee. I asked about the bitterness of
> the coffee and was told it was because they dark roast all their beans. Fair
> enough explanation, though not all coffee is good when dark roasted. When I
> want just a regular coffee, nothing beats a Timmie's decaf double/double.
> *wonders if Mary Ann is reading because she'll understand that one*

Ali:
It's actually a combination of factors.  Starbucks does dark roast all
of their beans, and as you noted, not all beans are meant for that
(hence why some of their black coffee will taste really good and some
will taste like battery acid).  The beans themselves are also brewed
extra dark, which is due to the fact that so many people who get black
coffee get it with ice or milk or whatever, and the idea is that these
extras items dilute the coffee, so the coffee gets brewed at triple
strength.  Again, this isn't always a good thing, so ... anyway, just
a few of the reasons why you'll sometimes get a good cup at SBUX (the
stock symbol of the company) and sometimes you'll get a cup that gets
you wondering why you like coffee at all.

~Ali, who may have improperly signed her another on another email
since she's staying late at work sending giant files via email and is
now confusing her personal and profession emails



From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 10 00:47:41 2009
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 00:47:41 -0000
Subject: One more  language question.
In-Reply-To: <gk8ctd+10dd7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gk8r7d+ho8k@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "sistermagpie"
<sistermagpie at ...> wrote:

> Definitely not the meaning of fancy that means "like" (as in 
> "fancy a piece of cake?")


> Geoff wrote:

> Not to be confused with: Would you fancy an ice cream?/Do you fancy
> going to the cinema?


zanooda:

Thank you very much! This is exactly the point I was arguing: they
translated it as "I'm glad to see you here", but it didn't sound right
to me somehow :-).






From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 10 00:57:40 2009
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 00:57:40 -0000
Subject: Nice and Interesting ...Pretty good. - Tea and Coffee
In-Reply-To: <gk63jj+5vo6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gk8rq4+cdbb@eGroups.com>

---  "Steve" <bboyminn at ...> wrote:
>
> ---  "Geoff Bannister" <gbannister10@> wrote:
> >
> > ...
> > 
> > Geoff:
> > It may sound British but it ain't! In the UK, you can have 
> > "kettles", "teapots" but not "tea kettles".
> >
> 
> Let me guess, Kettles heat the water, and teapots serve the
> tea. 
> 
> In the USA, we have coffee pots usually rather big, and tea
> kettles which are smaller. Coffee pots brew/percolate coffee, and
> metal tea kettles heat water for whatever purpose. 
> 
> We do have tea pots, which are small ceramic pots for brewing
> and serving tea. ...
> 
> Steve/bboyminn
>


Just so we are clear -

This is a tea kettle -
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=5903142

Which, of course, isn't a /TEA/ kettle at all since it is never
used to brew tea. It is more accurately a Water Kettle use to 
heat water for tea, instant coffee, or hot chocolate. 

This is a real old fashioned coffee pot, at one time found
in nearly every home in America. Used exclusively for brewing
(if you can all it that) coffee.

http://www.campingsurvival.com/sicopot12cup.html

http://www.amazon.com/Coleman-14-Cup-Coffee-Enamelware-Percolator/dp/B0009PUQI2/ref=pd_bbs_11/189-2317655-9485305?ie=UTF8&s=sporting-goods&qid=1231548313&sr=8-11

Shown in medium blue, but most often found in dark blue.
These pretty well met their end when the electric coffee
percolator was introduces. As anyone one knows, percolated 
coffee is about the worst there is. But then, I drink
instant, so what do I know. 

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=2593962&findingMethod=rr

Back in the old days, it was a real treat to get 'drip' 
coffee at a cafe. 

And, of course, we all know that this is a teapot, used for
brewing and serving tea, but never used for heating water.

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=8130131

When using a teapot, be sure to preheat it with some hot water
from the tap to prevent the ceramic glaze from cracking. 

Steve/bboyminn




From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 10 01:14:51 2009
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 01:14:51 -0000
Subject: Tempest in a Mug of Hot Chocolate - Abuelita
In-Reply-To: <gk827m+qas2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gk8sqb+hfdt@eGroups.com>

---  "Geoff Bannister" <gbannister10 at ...> wrote:
>
> ---  "Carol" <justcarol67@> wrote:
> 
> > Carol:
> > who doesn't own a teapot and uses her tea kettle to heat water
> > for hot chocolate
> 
> Geoff:
> I heat up my hot chocolate in the microwave....
> 
> <exit looking rather smug with his mug>
>

bboyminn:

Speaking of hot chocolate, you have to try this -

http://www.nestle-abuelita.com/EN/Products/Default.aspx

Abuelita is a very mildly spicy hot chocolate that is 
most often found in Mexico. After drinking this, I will
never, or rarely, drink standard instant hot chocolate 
again. 

Though it is somewhat expensive. Standard box of instant hot 
chocolate (Swiss Miss, etc...) is about $1.50 a box, and the
Abuelita is about $2.50 a box, but well worth it.

Hey...I'm just saying...

Steve/bluewizard





From vand195550 at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 10 01:41:25 2009
From: vand195550 at yahoo.com (Stephen Vandecasteele)
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 17:41:25 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Nice and Interesting ...Pretty good. - Tea and Coffee
Message-ID: <370630.53349.qm@web59404.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>




--- On Fri, 1/9/09, P. Alexis Nguyen <alexisnguyen at gmail.com> wrote:

> From: P. Alexis Nguyen <alexisnguyen at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Nice and Interesting ...Pretty good. - Tea and Coffee
> To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
> Date: Friday, January 9, 2009, 6:49 PM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>     
>             Geoff:
> 
> > Silly question but why call it a water kettle?
> That's what kettles are for
> 
> > surely. And electric kettles have to be considered
> since there are so
> 
> > many of them.
> 
> 
> 
> Ali:
> 
> I'm not really sure.  I've only ever heard water
> kettle.  I personally
> 
> just say that I'm boiling water, making tea, putting on
> some water
> 
> (which is rarely accurate since I technically "plug
> in," not put on
> 
> anything), etc.  I can't really recall the last time I
> used the term
> 
> kettle when not in reference to popcorn.
> 
> 
> 
> I grew up in the Midwest of the US (and was taught British
> English
> 
> prior to that) if that helps identify my quirk at all.  :)
> 
> 
> 
> Sheryll:
> 
> > I like Starbucks fancy stuff (decaf only, though,
> since I'm not supposed to
> 
> > have caffiene) but not their regular coffee. I asked
> about the bitterness of
> 
> > the coffee and was told it was because they dark roast
> all their beans. Fair
> 
> > enough explanation, though not all coffee is good when
> dark roasted. When I
> 
> > want just a regular coffee, nothing beats a
> Timmie's decaf double/double.
> 
> > *wonders if Mary Ann is reading because she'll
> understand that one*
> 
> 
> 
> Ali:
> 
> It's actually a combination of factors.  Starbucks does
> dark roast all
> 
> of their beans, and as you noted, not all beans are meant
> for that
> 
> (hence why some of their black coffee will taste really
> good and some
> 
> will taste like battery acid).  The beans themselves are
> also brewed
> 
> extra dark, which is due to the fact that so many people
> who get black
> 
> coffee get it with ice or milk or whatever, and the idea is
> that these
> 
> extras items dilute the coffee, so the coffee gets brewed
> at triple
> 
> strength.  Again, this isn't always a good thing, so
> ... anyway, just
> 
> a few of the reasons why you'll sometimes get a good
> cup at SBUX (the
> 
> stock symbol of the company) and sometimes you'll get a
> cup that gets
> 
> you wondering why you like coffee at all.
> 
> 
> 
> ~Ali, who may have improperly signed her another on another
> email
> 
> since she's staying late at work sending giant files
> via email and is
> 
> now confusing her personal and profession emails

Steve Here,

Steve says this topic is becoming redundent.


> 
> 
>       
> 
>     
>     
> 	
> 	 
> 	
> 	
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 	
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 	
> 	
> 
> 
> 	
> 	
> 	
> 
> 


      




From vand195550 at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 10 01:51:55 2009
From: vand195550 at yahoo.com (Stephen Vandecasteele)
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 17:51:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Carol's questions for New Steve Was: Tempest in a teapot/cup/kettle
Message-ID: <287177.93240.qm@web59407.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>




--- On Fri, 1/9/09, Carol <justcarol67 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> From: Carol <justcarol67 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Carol's questions for New Steve Was: Tempest in a teapot/cup/kettle
> To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
> Date: Friday, January 9, 2009, 1:54 PM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>     
>             
> 
> > Steve is still waiting for your questions on GOF and
> OOTP?
> 
> 
> 
> Carol responds:
> 
> 
> 
> Hm. I noted that they were posted on the Movie list and
> gave you the
> 
> link. It seems more appropriate to discuss those questions
> there.
> 
> Here's the link again:
> 
> 
> 
> http://movies.
> groups.yahoo. com/group/ HPFGU-Movie/ message/15699
> 
> 
> 
> If you've left the Movie group or prefer not to read
> the whole post to
> 
> get to the questions, I'll quote that portion of the
> post here:
> 
> 
> 
> "To return to GoF, I wonder--and New Steve is the
> right person to tell
> 
> me--how intelligible the Barty Jr. plot is to those who
> haven't read
> 
> the books. Was it confusing to have "Professor
> Moody" show up again in
> 
> the OoP film when he had been revealed as an imposter named
> Barty
> 
> Crouch, Jr., in the previous film? Was it clear who the
> real Alastor
> 
> Moody was and what happened to him? (Why call the real
> Moody
> 
> "professor" in OoP when he never actually
> taught?)
> 
> 
> 
> "Is it clear to you what happened to the Longbottoms,
> Neville's
> 
> parents? Yes, they were Crucio'd (as Neville states in
> the OoP film),
> 
> but so was Harry near the end of GoF (film and book), and
> his Crucio
> 
> is not regarded as a fate worse than death (Sirius
> Black's comment to
> 
> Harry when he shows him the photo of the old Order--never
> mind the
> 
> alterations in *that* scene). Do you understand from the
> films alone
> 
> what happened to the Longbottoms that would make Neville
> (in the film
> 
> version) want revenge? Also, is it confusing that Barty Jr.
> is found
> 
> guilty of the crime in GoF, yet OoP shifts the blame to
> Bellatrix
> 
> Lestrange?
> 
> 
> 
> "Those are points in which, it seems to me, the films
> would have
> 
> benefitted from following the books more closely."
> 
> 
> 
> I really am curious as to how a person who hasn't read
> the books
> 
> reacts to these scenes. The original post explains more
> about how the
> 
> film treatment of Barty Jr. differs from the book and why
> that's
> 
> important to some of us.


Steve Here,

As to what happened to Professor Moody in GOF I think anyone watching the movie was not confused at all. As to the Longbottoms that were tortured true enough but were also hit with the death curse.

Steve who still belongs to the movie group.


      




From gabolamx at yahoo.com.mx  Sat Jan 10 03:31:10 2009
From: gabolamx at yahoo.com.mx (Gabriela)
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 03:31:10 -0000
Subject: Tempest in a Mug of Hot Chocolate - Abuelita
In-Reply-To: <gk8sqb+hfdt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gk94pu+4rk8@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <bboyminn at ...> wrote:
>
> ---  "Geoff Bannister" <gbannister10@> wrote:
> >
> > ---  "Carol" <justcarol67@> wrote:
> > 
> > > Carol:
> > > who doesn't own a teapot and uses her tea kettle to heat water
> > > for hot chocolate
> > 
> > Geoff:
> > I heat up my hot chocolate in the microwave....
> > 
> > <exit looking rather smug with his mug>
> >
> 
> bboyminn:
> 
> Speaking of hot chocolate, you have to try this -
> 
> http://www.nestle-abuelita.com/EN/Products/Default.aspx
> 
> Abuelita is a very mildly spicy hot chocolate that is 
> most often found in Mexico. After drinking this, I will
> never, or rarely, drink standard instant hot chocolate 
> again. 
> 
> Though it is somewhat expensive. Standard box of instant hot 
> chocolate (Swiss Miss, etc...) is about $1.50 a box, and the
> Abuelita is about $2.50 a box, but well worth it.
> 
> Hey...I'm just saying...
> 
> Steve/bluewizard

Gabriela:

A mexican here de-lurking to second Steve's opinion. 

Abuelita is excellent for a cup of hot chocolate, its flavor is very 
rich and it has a touch of cinammon and vanilla, although we here mix 
it with milk, not water.

Happy 2009 to you all!!











From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 10 03:31:38 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 03:31:38 -0000
Subject: Nice and Interesting ...Pretty good. - Tea and Coffee
In-Reply-To: <370630.53349.qm@web59404.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <gk94qq+kotn@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Stephen Vandecasteele 
<vand195550 at ...> wrote:
> Steve Here,
> 
> Steve says this topic is becoming redundent.
> 
>

Alla:

No, not really LOL. 
It just means that topic interests lots of people and people are 
willing to discuss it in depth :-) It often happens this way here.

Hmmm, I also think that Lipton is not a good tea at all. But I do drink 
it, just because I am often lazy to prepare loose tea. But I much 
prefer loose one. Alice's tea cup cafe in NY has over 100 different 
brands of tea, and they make many of those themselves. You guys, if you 
ever in NY and love tea, it is such a worthy trip IMO.




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Sat Jan 10 03:48:12 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 03:48:12 -0000
Subject: Carol's questions for New Steve Was: Tempest in a teapot/cup/kettle
In-Reply-To: <287177.93240.qm@web59407.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <gk95ps+u866@eGroups.com>

 
> Steve Here,
> 
> As to what happened to Professor Moody in GOF I think anyone 
watching the movie was not confused at all. As to the Longbottoms 
that were tortured true enough but were also hit with the death curse.
> 
> Steve who still belongs to the movie group.
>

Potioncat:

So, just to clarify, the movie goer understands that the person we 
all thought was Moody was really Barty, Jr. Could you summarize 
Barty's story for us? And did you get a feel for how Barty took over 
Moody? When you watched the movie a second time, did you feel 
differently about "Moody's" behavior?

Your understanding is that the Longbottoms were killed? Actually, 
they weren't. They have been patients at St. Mungo's Hospital all 
these years. They don't recognise Neville, although Alice seems to 
know he's important to her.

My husband and I just finished HBO's "John Adams" miniseries. Tom is 
constantly reading history and knows John Adams about as well as I 
know Snape. I had just read a biography of Abigail. So as we watched 
the show we were both muttering about the inaccuracies. In some cases 
I thought viewers would come away with a different view of the 
Adamses than they would have gotten from the book.

That's the sort of interest we have with the HP movies. How does the 
story come across without the book as background?




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 10 04:56:45 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 04:56:45 -0000
Subject: Carol's questions for New Steve Was: Tempest in a teapot/cup/kettle
In-Reply-To: <gk95ps+u866@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gk99qd+evpe@eGroups.com>

> Potioncat:
<SNIP>
> My husband and I just finished HBO's "John Adams" miniseries. Tom is 
> constantly reading history and knows John Adams about as well as I 
> know Snape. I had just read a biography of Abigail. So as we watched 
> the show we were both muttering about the inaccuracies. In some cases 
> I thought viewers would come away with a different view of the 
> Adamses than they would have gotten from the book.
> 
> That's the sort of interest we have with the HP movies. How does the 
> story come across without the book as background?
>


Alla:

OMG, so I just finished these series too couple days ago. Do tell what 
do you think about them? Have you read the book series are based on as 
well?






From vand195550 at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 10 06:25:59 2009
From: vand195550 at yahoo.com (Stephen Vandecasteele)
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 22:25:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Carol's questions for New Steve Was: Tempest in a teapot/cup/kettle
Message-ID: <103035.94237.qm@web59414.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>




--- On Fri, 1/9/09, potioncat <willsonkmom at msn.com> wrote:

> From: potioncat <willsonkmom at msn.com>
> Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Carol's questions for New Steve Was: Tempest in a teapot/cup/kettle
> To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
> Date: Friday, January 9, 2009, 10:48 PM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>     
>              
> 
> > Steve Here,
> 
> > 
> 
> > As to what happened to Professor Moody in GOF I think
> anyone 
> 
> watching the movie was not confused at all. As to the
> Longbottoms 
> 
> that were tortured true enough but were also hit with the
> death curse.
> 
> > 
> 
> > Steve who still belongs to the movie group.
> 
> >
> 
> 
> 
> Potioncat:
> 
> 
> 
> So, just to clarify, the movie goer understands that the
> person we 
> 
> all thought was Moody was really Barty, Jr. Could you
> summarize 
> 
> Barty's story for us? And did you get a feel for how
> Barty took over 
> 
> Moody? When you watched the movie a second time, did you
> feel 
> 
> differently about "Moody's" behavior?
> 
> 
> 
> Your understanding is that the Longbottoms were killed?
> Actually, 
> 
> they weren't. They have been patients at St.
> Mungo's Hospital all 
> 
> these years. They don't recognise Neville, although
> Alice seems to 
> 
> know he's important to her.
> 
> 
> 
> My husband and I just finished HBO's "John
> Adams" miniseries. Tom is 
> 
> constantly reading history and knows John Adams about as
> well as I 
> 
> know Snape. I had just read a biography of Abigail. So as
> we watched 
> 
> the show we were both muttering about the inaccuracies. In
> some cases 
> 
> I thought viewers would come away with a different view of
> the 
> 
> Adamses than they would have gotten from the book.
> 
> 
> 
> That's the sort of interest we have with the HP movies.
> How does the 
> 
> story come across without the book as background?

Hi Potioncat, Steve Here,

I became a Harry Potter fan purely by accident. I was in my local Blockbuster when the SS came out and seeing as how nothing else seemed interesting I purchased the VHS and the rest is history. I have read many books and your ending question "How does the story come across without the book as a background"? This is a fascinating question. The short answer as a person who has not read a word of the books is its just another movie, with actors who are terrific, good direction, and outstanding special effects. However, nothing about the Harry Potter Films cries out Golden Globe and certainly not Oscar. Having said that let me assure you that if the movies continue in the spirit of OOTP perhaps we just might be talking a Golden Globe or two. Perhaps if you were a tad more specific in what you are looking for I would be more than willing to answer your question, if so please title the post attention Steve V.

Thank You

Steve V.

1:25 AM January 10,2009

A Fans Perspective 2009


      




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Sat Jan 10 08:00:37 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 08:00:37 -0000
Subject: Nice and Interesting ...Pretty good. - Tea and Coffee
In-Reply-To: <370630.53349.qm@web59404.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <gk9kj5+7oc0@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Stephen Vandecasteele <vand195550 at ...> 
wrote:
 
> --- On Fri, 1/9/09, P. Alexis Nguyen <alexisnguyen at ...> wrote:
> 
> > From: P. Alexis Nguyen <alexisnguyen at ...>
> > Subject: Re: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Nice and Interesting ...Pretty good. - Tea and 
Coffee
> > To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
> > Date: Friday, January 9, 2009, 6:49 PM

Geoff:
 
> > > Silly question but why call it a water kettle?
> > That's what kettles are for  surely. And electric 
> > kettles have to be considereds ince there are so
> > many of them.
 
Ali:
 
> > I'm not really sure.  I've only ever heard water
> > kettle.  I personally just say that I'm boiling water, 
> > making tea, putting on some water (which is rarely 
> > accurate since I technically "plug in," not put on
> > anything), etc.  I can't really recall the last time I
> > used the term kettle when not in reference to popcorn.
 
<snip>

> Steve:
> 
> Steve says this topic is becoming redundent.

Geoff:
Just in passing, the standard UK comment will be along the lines 
of "I'll go and put the kettle on". There is even an old nursery rhyme 
which begins "Polly put the kettle on..."

Talking about things becoming redundant, Steve, your computer 
seems to persist in putting in umpteen unwanted "> >". I sent a 
lot of them off for an extra half day off when I wrote this reply. 
Perhaps a quiet word in the ear of your CPU?
:-)






From willsonkmom at msn.com  Sat Jan 10 13:20:35 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 13:20:35 -0000
Subject: Carol's questions for New Steve Was: Tempest in a teapot/cup/kettle
In-Reply-To: <gk99qd+evpe@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gka7b3+79n2@eGroups.com>

 
> Alla:
> 
> OMG, so I just finished these series too couple days ago. Do tell 
what 
> do you think about them? Have you read the book series are based on 
as 
> well?
>

Potioncat:
I didn't read the McCullough book, but Tom did. I'd say the 
historical parts were accurate. Some of the personal parts were 
tweaked a bit. Not enough to really matter in the scheme of things. 
There were two situations that made John look like a real hard-ass, 
which I guess in a way he was. There was a rift between him and his 
son Charles and between him and his son-in-law. But the book I read 
put more of the blame on the younger men than on John. I should ask 
Tom if the TV version was true to McCullough's book in that sense.

In spite of little differences, we enjoyed the series very much. I 
have to say, the White House had changed a lot since then! (Not that 
I'm a frequent visitor, you understand.)

The part that most surprised me, was when Adams was talking to the 
artist. The man had a huge painting of the signing of the Declaration 
of Independence. Adams is complaining that it's inaccurate (oh, that 
sounds familiar) and that posterity will get the wrong impression. 
Then it dawned on me, I've always pictured all the delagates standing 
in the Hall waiting to sign the paper; even though I should have 
known it hadn't been like that.




From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Sat Jan 10 17:22:39 2009
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 17:22:39 -0000
Subject: Nice and Interesting ...Pretty good. - Tea and Coffee
In-Reply-To: <gk94qq+kotn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gkalgv+egom@eGroups.com>

> Alla:
> 
> No, not really LOL. 
> It just means that topic interests lots of people and people are 
> willing to discuss it in depth :-) It often happens this way here.
> 
> Hmmm, I also think that Lipton is not a good tea at all. But I do 
drink 
> it, just because I am often lazy to prepare loose tea. But I much 
> prefer loose one. Alice's tea cup cafe in NY has over 100 different 
> brands of tea, and they make many of those themselves. You guys, if 
you 
> ever in NY and love tea, it is such a worthy trip IMO.

Magpie:
I second that recommendation. Apparently last week they had a fire at 
the one near me--no major damage, but they had to close for the day. 
They handed out muffins on the street.

-m





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sun Jan 11 02:36:45 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 02:36:45 -0000
Subject: One more  language question.
In-Reply-To: <gk8ctd+10dd7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gkblvt+cvvl@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "sistermagpie"
<sistermagpie at ...> wrote:
>
> > Hey guys, a have a small question about the word "fancy". Actually, I
> > asked a question about this word before, especially about the British
> > meanings of it and I had my answer (thanks, Geoff :-)), but here it
> > goes again :-). When DD says in PS/SS "Fancy seeing you here,
> > Professor McGonagall" (Ch.1, p.9 Am.ed. or p.13 Br.ed.), which meaning
> > of the word is it? Does it mean something like "It is surprising to
> > see you here"? Is it the same meaning as in "Fancy that!" expression?
> > Confirmation needed :-). Thanks!
> 
> Magpie:
> That expression does carry the "fancy that" expression (when "fancy
 that" means "imagine that" conveying surprise). Though it's often
used in a way where the surprise is fake--exactly the way Dumbledore
is using it. He's saying, "Fancy meeting you here," to knowingly
suggest that it should be a surprise but it isn't because he knows
that it's  not a coincidence that he's met here there. Like he's
playing along. But it could also be used to express genuine surprise,
in the sense of, "So we went to Barbados and there were our next door
neighbors. Fancy meeting them there!" Definitely not the meaning of
fancy that means "like" (as in "fancy a piece of cake?")

Carol responds:

I agree. In both "fancy that" and "fancy meeting you here," the word
"imagine" can be substituted for "fancy": "imagine that"; "imagine
meeting you here."

On a side note, what we generally call the imagination was sometimes
referred to as the fancy. The Romantic poet Coleridge, however,
insisted that there was a difference. Fancy merely involved taking
what we already know and transforming it by switching parts or
qualities around: putting wings on horses or making broomsticks fly.
Imagination, on the other hand, was a whole new way of looking at
things best exemplified by Romantic poetry itself (Coleridge's "Kublai
Khan" or shelley's "Ode to the West Wind") or maybe by Blake's stanza
beginning "to see the world in a grain of sand." Coleridge would
dismiss many elements of JKR's books (e.g., Quidditch) as mere fancy.

Carol, who's being interrupted and can't finish her post




From HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com  Sun Jan 11 18:40:32 2009
From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com (HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 11 Jan 2009 18:40:32 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 1/11/2009, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1231699232.53.19196.m52@yahoogroups.com>

Reminder from: HPFGU-OTChatter Yahoo! Group
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/cal

Weekly Chat
Sunday January 11, 2009
1:00 pm - 2:00 pm
(This event repeats every week.)
Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Notes:
Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour.

To get to the HPfGU room follow this link:
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Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want
to be called.

Enter the password: hpfguchat

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From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Jan 11 22:54:22 2009
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 22:54:22 -0000
Subject: Fahrenheit/Whassup/Pretty/more more more
Message-ID: <gkdtau+fr7e@eGroups.com>

Geoff wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/38384>:

<< The temperature on our central heating/hotwater boiler is usually
set at 58 or thereabouts wlthough we have pushed it up to about 63-64
in the current spell of severe cold in the UK. We used to have it a
tad higher but now keep it lower for fuel economy reasons. >>

(58 * 9 / 5 ) + 32 = 136.4 + 'thereabouts' = 140, which has been the
traditional setting for American home water heaters, but recently we
have all been advised many times to set them down to 120 [(120 - 32) *
5 / 9 = 48.8888] for fuel economy reasons. With the results that a new
study has recently been published revealing that many bacteria who are
killed at 140 thrive at 120.

Sheryl wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/38396>:

<<  Sometimes higher if the temp outside is going down below -30 C. >>

Fahrenheit 22 below zero!? Isn't that uncivilized?

Carol wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/38400>:

<< has received some odd looks for providing a real answer to the
rhetorical question "How are you?" >>

Miss Manners wrote that people should be so habitual about answering
'Fine' to 'How are you?' that they answer 'Fine' even to the emergency
room doctor examining them. She wrote that the question to ask when a
real answer is desired is 'How are you, *really*?'

Altho' I cherish some unconventional answers to 'How are you?' which I
have heard. I loved 'Perverse and contrary' so much that I borrowed it
for a while. 'I have not interrogated that register recently' is not
my style.

Cabal md wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/38403>:

<< "Pretty" is an adverb and adjective and a noun... what the hell is
an intensifier, I teach English, never heard of any such thing :-D >>

I think that 'very' is the only OFFICIAL intensifier. Don't you always
have students puzzled at adverbs that can apply only to adjectives and
adverbs, and can't apply to verbs, like 'He very ran' or 'She danced
pretty'?

Here is the entry for 'very' in the Online Etymology Dictionary:
<http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=very>. Like 'veritable' and
'verily' it comes from a word meaning 'truth'. Of course, 'true' and
'truthful' don't mean the same: compare a true man to a truthful man.

Carol wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/38428>:

<< Not a tempest in a teapot? Do we really all say it that
differently? (snip) now wondering how Mrs. Figg would say it >>

Surely Mrs. Figg's phrase would be 'in a cauldron'. 'Hurricane in a
cauldron' alliterates better than 'tempest in a cauldron' but still
not well. 'Earthquake in a flowerpot' crossed my mind but is not wizardly.

Carol wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/38429>:

<< Peeves, inciting the House-Elves to fight, yells, "Stick your
fingers up his nosey, draw his cork and pull his earsies" (p.420--"Elf
Tails, about two pages before the end of the chapter). Shouldn't that
be "conk," meaning "nose"? *Is* it a typo and does it appear in the
Bloomsbury edition as well? If it's not a typo and "cork" is correct,
what does it mean? >>

Doesn't 'draw his cork' mean 'give him a bloody nose'? And then the
spilled blood is called 'claret'?

Zanooda wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/38445>:

<< One last question about "nice and": we can use it to characterize
*only* inanimate objects/nouns, right? It wouldn't work to describe
people, would it? If a girl is "nice and pretty", it means that she is
pretty and she is *also* nice, not that she is
pleasantly/agreeably/perfectly (and whatever else it was :-)) pretty,
right :-)? >>

I think 'nice and' is also an intensifier for beings. Someone who is
'nice and tall' doesn't have to be exceptionally nice, only nice
enough to reach something down frome the top shelf when requested by a
short person. My friend Lee reports that she once made the day of a
man about 5'5, a fellow customer in the supermarket, to whom she said
'Excuse me, I need a tall person. Can you reach that olive oil down
for me?'




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Mon Jan 12 00:52:53 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 00:52:53 -0000
Subject: John Adams HBO series WAS: Re: Carol's questions for New Steve 9 sort of LONG)
In-Reply-To: <gka7b3+79n2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gke496+oc5s@eGroups.com>

> Potioncat:
> I didn't read the McCullough book, but Tom did. I'd say the 
> historical parts were accurate. Some of the personal parts were 
> tweaked a bit. Not enough to really matter in the scheme of things. 
> There were two situations that made John look like a real hard-ass, 
> which I guess in a way he was. There was a rift between him and his 
> son Charles and between him and his son-in-law. But the book I read 
> put more of the blame on the younger men than on John. I should ask 
> Tom if the TV version was true to McCullough's book in that sense.
> 
> In spite of little differences, we enjoyed the series very much. I 
> have to say, the White House had changed a lot since then! (Not 
that 
> I'm a frequent visitor, you understand.)
> 
> The part that most surprised me, was when Adams was talking to the 
> artist. The man had a huge painting of the signing of the 
Declaration 
> of Independence. Adams is complaining that it's inaccurate (oh, 
that 
> sounds familiar) and that posterity will get the wrong impression. 
> Then it dawned on me, I've always pictured all the delagates 
standing 
> in the Hall waiting to sign the paper; even though I should have 
> known it hadn't been like that.
>


Alla:

The series were fun for sure - excellent casting, etc. I had some 
issues with characterization, but the movie was good. Although due to 
me having some issues with the characterization, as I posted 
elsewhere I am glad that I rented them first instead of buying as I 
originally planned.

The subject of founding fathers fascinates me for quite some time 
now. As I probably mentioned here one of my lawyer colleagues used to 
be history teacher in school for fifteen years I believe before he 
went to law school. I mean, I read up the basics on the founding 
fathers as an immigrant who wanted to know as much as possible about 
the history of the country that became my own, but for quite some 
time now I cannot help but wonder how fascinating it is, that in one 
country so many genious minds were together in one generation and 
what they did. 

So, anyways, as I also mentioned elsewhere I had been reading for 
quite some time now the complete correspondence between Adams, 
Jefferson and Abigail. I had not remember ever having a patience to 
read the book THAT slowly. Usually two three days is the time I 
finish a book. This - I do not want to finish, I am reading couple 
letters a day and then switch to another book. I mean, it is so so 
fascinating to hear the voices of these people.

Oh yeah, sorry where was I? The series. I read Mcgulough's book long 
time ago and do not remember the details, but I am pretty sure he did 
not devote much time to Adams' relationship with Charles.

I have no idea if he renounced his son in reality or whether it was a 
creative license that filmmakers took, but if he did, sorry, I would 
call him words that are much harsher than hard ass. 

Because if we go by the account in the series, to me it seemed pretty 
clear that John bears a lot of blame IMO for what happened to 
Charles. It seemed to me that kod craved his father's attention all 
the time and instead father went on a long trips because his duty 
called him.

And that is fine, really, I understand that patriotic duty came 
before his family for him and this is the choice that I can respect, 
I suppose. But when he acted high and mighty in renouncing his 
alcoholic son, I wanted to slap him.

Yes, it is all great that his other kids learned that Adams duty came 
before anything else, learned so well that John Quincy became 
president himself. I command Abigal for bringing them up so well, 
really. I just do not think that the fact that she could not do so 
with Charles is something that should be condemned. I pity Charles 
very much.

But again, I believe that it is true that he was an alcoholic and 
that he died young, I just do not know if Adams renounced him in real 
life.

Alla




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Mon Jan 12 02:40:39 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 02:40:39 -0000
Subject: John Adams HBO series WAS: Re: Carol's questions for New Steve 9 sort of LONG)
In-Reply-To: <gke496+oc5s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gkeaj7+7quq@eGroups.com>

> Alla:
> 
> The series were fun for sure - excellent casting, etc. I had some 
> issues with characterization, but the movie was good. <SNIP>

Alla:

Squeeeeee. They already got Three Golden Globes, I wonder if Giamatti 
will receive for the lead actor as well.

Um,sorry for replying to myself.




From Schlobin at aol.com  Mon Jan 12 02:53:50 2009
From: Schlobin at aol.com (susanmcgee48176)
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 02:53:50 -0000
Subject: Inaugural organizer makes HP reference
Message-ID: <gkebbu+4sdf@eGroups.com>

Carol Floorman, of the Joint Congressional Committee on Inaugural 
Ceremonies made a reference to HP....bemoaning the problem of the 
millions of people navigating the mazes of closed streets, jammed 
sidewalks and crowded subways....she said she wished she could use the 
Floo Network, that all the fireplaces in the Capital Building would 
work really well.

Susan




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Mon Jan 12 03:44:51 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 03:44:51 -0000
Subject: John Adams HBO series  and real history
In-Reply-To: <gke496+oc5s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gkeebj+gifm@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" 
<dumbledore11214 at ...> wrote:
<SNIP>
> Because if we go by the account in the series, to me it seemed 
pretty 
> clear that John bears a lot of blame IMO for what happened to 
> Charles. It seemed to me that kod craved his father's attention all 
> the time and instead father went on a long trips because his duty 
> called him.
> 
> And that is fine, really, I understand that patriotic duty came 
> before his family for him and this is the choice that I can 
respect, 
> I suppose. But when he acted high and mighty in renouncing his 
> alcoholic son, I wanted to slap him.
> 
> Yes, it is all great that his other kids learned that Adams duty 
came 
> before anything else, learned so well that John Quincy became 
> president himself. I command Abigal for bringing them up so well, 
> really. I just do not think that the fact that she could not do so 
> with Charles is something that should be condemned. I pity Charles 
> very much.
> 
> But again, I believe that it is true that he was an alcoholic and 
> that he died young, I just do not know if Adams renounced him in 
real 
> life.


Alla:

Eh, sorry, I promise I will be done talking to myself, but I figured 
I should go and take a look if in real life John Adams indeed 
abandoned his kids including Charles as much as series imply?

If we go by this article, then the answer is really not, it seems to 
me. I mean, he left of course, but does not look like he just left 
his kids for years at a time, but took them with him too. And when 
Abigail came, her daughter came with her. Ugh, why take this kind of 
creative license I wonder/

http://hnn.us/articles/56155.html




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Mon Jan 12 13:28:01 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 13:28:01 -0000
Subject: John Adams HBO series  and real history
In-Reply-To: <gkeebj+gifm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gkfgh1+9od6@eGroups.com>

 
> Alla:

> If we go by this article, then the answer is really not, it seems to 
> me. I mean, he left of course, but does not look like he just left 
> his kids for years at a time, but took them with him too. And when 
> Abigail came, her daughter came with her. Ugh, why take this kind of 
> creative license I wonder/
> 
> http://hnn.us/articles/56155.html


Potioncat:
The article pointed even more descrepencies than Tom and I caught. 
(More catching done by him than me.)

John did disown Charles. But the founding fathers may not have been the 
type of fathers that we look to today. Franklin was also estranged from 
his son, and possibly a grandson. Of course, his son was a Torry. I 
once read an article bashing Jefferson because of letters he sent to 
his daughter. The writer thought he was very harsh.

But, the series was very good. Did you see, Paul G. did get the award! 
We'll watch it again. But I need a break from it before we put it on 
again.





From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Mon Jan 12 13:50:32 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 13:50:32 -0000
Subject: John Adams HBO series  and real history
In-Reply-To: <gkfgh1+9od6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gkfhr8+t38j@eGroups.com>

> Potioncat:
> The article pointed even more descrepencies than Tom and I caught. 
> (More catching done by him than me.)
> 
> John did disown Charles. But the founding fathers may not have been 
the 
> type of fathers that we look to today. Franklin was also estranged 
from 
> his son, and possibly a grandson. Of course, his son was a Torry. I 
> once read an article bashing Jefferson because of letters he sent 
to 
> his daughter. The writer thought he was very harsh.

Alla:

Well, yes, but it appears that while John Adams was not a perfect 
father, he was not a type of absentee dad (even if for a patriotic 
cause) that series portrayed to me. Why why did they feel a need to 
portray as if he did not take Charles to France with him when he took 
John Quincy? I mean, he did take Charles and then he took both boys 
to Holland with him as well.

See, that to me is a type of syndrome which even best Holywood movies 
have, heroes just HAVE TO do something bad. And if that something bad 
was  not terribly bad, let's just make it terribly bad for dramatic 
effect.

I now want to slap the filmmakers instead of John Adams LOL. I mean, 
again, I am not saying that he was perfect father, but it seems to me 
that he tried hard to be a good one.



Potioncat: 
> But, the series was very good. Did you see, Paul G. did get the 
award! 
> We'll watch it again. But I need a break from it before we put it 
on 
> again.


Alla:

Without any doubt series were very good, I just wish they would look 
for real drama in John Adams' and his family lives instead inventing 
their owns way too often IMO.





From willsonkmom at msn.com  Mon Jan 12 14:00:58 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 14:00:58 -0000
Subject: John Adams HBO series  and real history
In-Reply-To: <gkfhr8+t38j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gkfieq+9357@eGroups.com>

 
> Alla:
> 
> Well, yes, but it appears that while John Adams was not a perfect 
> father, he was not a type of absentee dad (even if for a patriotic 
> cause) that series portrayed to me. Why why did they feel a need to 
> portray as if he did not take Charles to France with him when he 
took 
> John Quincy? I mean, he did take Charles and then he took both boys 
> to Holland with him as well.

Potioncat:
And Charles was either expelled or almost expelled from school in 
Holland. He had been a problem for a long time. Nabby's husband (at 
least according to the Abigail bio) was no great prize. I think the 
series really downplayed Col Smith's moral character and put it all 
on John.

Did you hear Paul G.'s (don't have a clue on the spelling) acceptance 
speech? He said the writer was kept busy the whole time. It shows.

What I really enjoyed were the little things, the changing costumes, 
the look of the cities of those days, the bad teeth. By the time he 
was president, Adams had lost enough teeth that his speech was 
affected, and made him uncomfortable when speaking before Congress. 

 





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon Jan 12 18:57:55 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 18:57:55 -0000
Subject: "Tempest in a teapot"--a new variant
In-Reply-To: <b6e131bf0901091538k2f592754v1345ae132b697d94@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <gkg3rj+c52v@eGroups.com>

> > Carol, who needs to know, apropos of nothing in this post, whether
it's possible to record on a VHS tape or DVD from DirecTV

Alexis responded: 
> Yes, this is possible.  Google "record from directtv" or call
DirectTV.  Unlike my stupid cable company (Comcast), you'll be able to
good some assistance from either method.
<snip> 
>
Carol responds:

Thanks. I don't have DirecTV myself (or even a working VCR at the
moment) but I'm hoping that my sister has DirecTV (rather than TIVO)
and can record the "Wonderland" episodes for me when they start airing
on DirecTV January 14. I'm sure that my sister will know how to do it;
I just wanted to be sure that the episodes weren't just stored
somewhere for later playback on the same TV (as I think they are on
TIVO). Technology is changing too fast for me, both my aptitude and my
budget!

Carol, who has the same stupid cable company (Comcast) 




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon Jan 12 19:23:04 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 19:23:04 -0000
Subject: Carol's questions for New Steve Was: Tempest in a teapot/cup/kettle
In-Reply-To: <287177.93240.qm@web59407.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <gkg5ao+u8cj@eGroups.com>

Steve wrote:
> 
> As to what happened to Professor Moody in GOF I think anyone
watching the movie was not confused at all. As to the Longbottoms that
were tortured true enough but were also hit with the death curse.
> 
> Steve who still belongs to the movie group.

Carol responds:

Okay, so you understand that the real Alastor Moody was kept in his
own trunk for ten months by the imposter Barty Crouch, but didn't it
seem at all odd for Harry to address the real Moody, whom he'd never
actually met (except to glimpse his emaciated form, minus its magical
eye and prosthetic leg at the bottom of that trunk) as "Professor"
Moody when he never taught a single class and to act as if Moody were
someone he knew? The last time he saw a man who looked like Moody,
that man (really Barty Jr.) was trying to kill him. In the book, Harry
addresses him tentatively as "Professor Moody" and Moody says gruffly,
"Never got around to much teaching, did I?" or something like that.
Any confusion a reader might feel is immediately cleared up. There's
also a moment when he complains that his eye has felt dirty "ever
since that scum wore it." The movie, in contrast, acts as if Barty Jr.
never existed and "Professor Moody" were the same character who taught
Harry DADA the previous year.

Barty Jr.'s role in torturing the Longbottomws (*into insanity*) is
also ignored in OoP. He's one of four characters who are guilty of the
crime (Barty is a boy of nineteen at the time). The other three are
Bellatrix Lestrange (maiden name Black--she's Sirius Black's cousin),
her husband Rodolphus, and Rodolphus's brother, Rabastan. I can
understand leaving out the Lestrange brothers (even the books tend to
forget their existence, especially Rabastan's), but it seems to me
that the movies 1) shift the blame for the crime against the
Longbottoms from Barty Jr. to Bellatrix without indicating that they
acted together and 2) fail to make it clear that this particular use
of the Cruciatus Curse is no ordinary Crucio like Harry receives from
Voldemort in the graveyard in GoF but a prolonged Crucio by four DEs
that ended in their permanent incapicitation. There's a moving scene
involving Neville's mother, who dimly senses that Neville is important
to her. She can't speak, but she shows what remains of her love for
her son by giving him empty bubblegum wrappers. I was very
disappointed to see that scene cut from the film. As it is, it looks
as if Neville is contemplating revenge (not in the book) for a mere
Cruciatus Curse that happened fourteen years earlier. (Yes, the
Cruciatus Curse is an Unforgiveable and it's a form of torture, but
the victims don't usually suffer lasting harm. Neville is, to all
intents an orphan, just as Harry is. The difference is that his
parents are lying in a special ward in St. Mungo's where he can see
what's left of them at Christmas, but they will never recover from the
insanity that Bellatrix, Barty, and the Lestrange brothers inflicted
on them.

All of that is lost in the films, and to me it seems like a
significant loss.

Carol, glad that New Steve is still in the Movie group and wondering
if we should move this discussion there





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon Jan 12 19:41:49 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 19:41:49 -0000
Subject: John Adams HBO series  and real history
In-Reply-To: <gkfieq+9357@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gkg6dt+kl0i@eGroups.com>

> Potioncat:
> And Charles was either expelled or almost expelled from school in 
Holland. He had been a problem for a long time. Nabby's husband (at 
least according to the Abigail bio) was no great prize. I think the 
series really downplayed Col Smith's moral character and put it all on
John. <snip>

Carol responds:

Does either the book or the TV series mention John and Abigail's
daughter, Hannah? Just wondering because I'm descended from her.

Carol, who would have watched the miniseries but doesn't get HBO





From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Mon Jan 12 20:05:06 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 20:05:06 -0000
Subject: Losses from the films
In-Reply-To: <gkg5ao+u8cj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gkg7pi+jn5k@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:

Carol: 
> All of that is lost in the films, and to me it seems like a
> significant loss.

Geoff:
That I feel is an important element of the argument. Even if you do 
not see the link to the books but view it "only  as a person who has 
not read a word of the books" when "its just another movie, with 
actors who are terrific, good direction, and outstanding special 
effects", there must be sections which don't apparently tie in.

In my case, I was irritated by POA because it is never explained in 
the film where the Marauder's Map came from and why Remus 
Lupin knew so much about it when what is so crucial is that Harry's 
father was one of the four and his nickname Prongs gave a clue to the
Patronus that Harry saw.






From willsonkmom at msn.com  Mon Jan 12 20:14:40 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 20:14:40 -0000
Subject: John Adams HBO series  and real history
In-Reply-To: <gkg6dt+kl0i@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gkg8bg+dk9e@eGroups.com>


> 
> Carol responds:
> 
> Does either the book or the TV series mention John and Abigail's
> daughter, Hannah? Just wondering because I'm descended from her.
> 
> Carol, who would have watched the miniseries but doesn't get HBO
>
Potioncat:
I don't think John and Abigail had a daughter named Hannah. I believe 
either his mother or grandmother was Hannah. But I've only read the 
one book about them.

Does your library carry videos? It really was good. (We looked into 
getting HBO when it was first coming out, and decided we'd wait.)

warning, personal experience/parental bragging ahead:

My youngest passed by a few times, but didn't watch the series with 
us. One day he asked me if the show about the Revolution or just John 
Adams. I explained it sort of covered both--but was about his 
involvement and it had started before 1776.

"Oh. Then it must have started with the Boston Masacre."

I was surprised, even though I knew he liked history--and asked how 
he had remembered that.

"We did a re-inactment of it in 6th grade, and I played John Adams."

So, there you go! I'm almost famous. 




From alexisnguyen at gmail.com  Mon Jan 12 20:50:09 2009
From: alexisnguyen at gmail.com (P. Alexis Nguyen)
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 15:50:09 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: John Adams HBO series and real history
In-Reply-To: <gkg8bg+dk9e@eGroups.com>
References: <gkg6dt+kl0i@eGroups.com> <gkg8bg+dk9e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b6e131bf0901121250k5494e381j846bfad654fbeba4@mail.gmail.com>

Potioncat:
> I don't think John and Abigail had a daughter named Hannah. I believe
> either his mother or grandmother was Hannah. But I've only read the
> one book about them.

Ali:
I think his mother's name was Susan or Elizabeth or something
innocuous?  (Wikipedia tells me Susanna Boylston Adams.)  The only
Hannah Adams I know of is this one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannah_Adams

It does appear that she has a connection to John Adams, but a distant
cousin is much farther apart than the daughter that Carol referenced.
Does anyone who has a better grip of US history know?  (I never like
US history; history of the ancient world was more my style - ancient
China, ancient Greece, etc. - I stopped caring about Europe after the
Romans came about and about Asia after the Qing dynasty came into
power.)

~Ali



From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Mon Jan 12 21:04:49 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 21:04:49 -0000
Subject: John Adams HBO series  and real history
In-Reply-To: <gkfieq+9357@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gkgb9h+81s1@eGroups.com>

Potioncat:
And Charles was either expelled or almost expelled from school in
Holland. He had been a problem for a long time. Nabby's husband (at
least according to the Abigail bio) was no great prize. I think the
series really downplayed Col Smith's moral character and put it all
on John.

Alla:

And the hilarious part about what really happened according to this 
article and probably to McGulough's book, boy do I need to reread 
this book, is despite the fact that John Adams indeed did not like 
his son in law, he did ask Congress for that appointment for him. 
Congress did not confirm him! Gee, I wonder why. And what does Adams 
do? He is asking for another position for him, which he got, right?

Hmmm, so let me see. Here we have a father, a politician of strong 
opinions somebody who must have really love his country, because I do 
not know, he helped to establish its independence if nothing else. 
And here we have him asking a congress to confirm somebody in the 
position whom he does not think very much of. I wonder could it be 
because he loved his daughter that much? You know, right that my 
sarcasm is not directed at you Potioncat, but at the filmmakers?

So, the real drama is for Adams probably fighting over his love for 
his daughter and love for his country in a way? I mean, here is the 
real flaw comes out ? he would ask to advance somebody who is his 
relative. I wonder, why filmmakers did not consider that dramatic 
enough, his flaws as politician and went for his imaginary flaws as 
father?

And then of course we can have that silly scene of Nabby asking her 
dad not to wish her husband ill when she is gone. Eh, okay.

Potioncat:
Did you hear Paul G.'s (don't have a clue on the spelling) acceptance
speech? He said the writer was kept busy the whole time. It shows.

Alla:

Heh, no I did not hear his speech.

Potioncat:
What I really enjoyed were the little things, the changing costumes,
the look of the cities of those days, the bad teeth. By the time he
was president, Adams had lost enough teeth that his speech was
affected, and made him uncomfortable when speaking before Congress.

Alla:

I loved it too, that they did not glamorize the setting, etc







From willsonkmom at msn.com  Mon Jan 12 21:16:52 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 21:16:52 -0000
Subject: John Adams HBO series and real history
In-Reply-To: <b6e131bf0901121250k5494e381j846bfad654fbeba4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <gkgc04+n2p6@eGroups.com>

 
> Ali:
> I think his mother's name was Susan or Elizabeth or something
> innocuous?  

Potioncat:
Here's a link to one geneology source::
http://www.genealogy.com/famousfolks/john-adams/

John Adams's grandmother was Hannah Bass.

Carol, JA is descended from John and Priscilla Alden. Doesn't that line 
lead to Martha Carrier?




From vand195550 at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 13 01:50:12 2009
From: vand195550 at yahoo.com (Stephen Vandecasteele)
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 17:50:12 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Carol's questions for New Steve Was: Tempest in a teapot/cup/kettle
Message-ID: <804125.27942.qm@web59411.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>


 
> Carol responds:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, so you understand that the real Alastor Moody was
> kept in his
> 
> own trunk for ten months by the imposter Barty Crouch, but
> didn't it
> 
> seem at all odd for Harry to address the real Moody, whom
> he'd never
> 
> actually met (except to glimpse his emaciated form, minus
> its magical
> 
> eye and prosthetic leg at the bottom of that trunk) as
> "Professor"
> 
> Moody when he never taught a single class and to act as if
> Moody were
> 
> someone he knew? The last time he saw a man who looked like
> Moody,
> 
> that man (really Barty Jr.) was trying to kill him. In the
> book, Harry
> 
> addresses him tentatively as "Professor Moody"
> and Moody says gruffly,
> 
> "Never got around to much teaching, did I?" or
> something like that.
> 
> Any confusion a reader might feel is immediately cleared
> up. There's
> 
> also a moment when he complains that his eye has felt dirty
> "ever
> 
> since that scum wore it." The movie, in contrast, acts
> as if Barty Jr.
> 
> never existed and "Professor Moody" were the same
> character who taught
> 
> Harry DADA the previous year.

Steve V. Responds

Just like any other person who has followed the HP Movies intently one comes to expect the unexpected. Your asking a movie question while referring to the books. Its like putting an out house in an elevator it dosen't fit.
> 
> 
> 
> Barty Jr.'s role in torturing the Longbottomws (*into
> insanity*) is
> 
> also ignored in OoP. He's one of four characters who
> are guilty of the
> 
> crime (Barty is a boy of nineteen at the time). The other
> three are
> 
> Bellatrix Lestrange (maiden name Black--she's Sirius
> Black's cousin),
> 
> her husband Rodolphus, and Rodolphus's brother,
> Rabastan. I can
> 
> understand leaving out the Lestrange brothers (even the
> books tend to
> 
> forget their existence, especially Rabastan's), but it
> seems to me
> 
> that the movies 1) shift the blame for the crime against
> the
> 
> Longbottoms from Barty Jr. to Bellatrix without indicating
> that they
> 
> acted together and 2) fail to make it clear that this
> particular use
> 
> of the Cruciatus Curse is no ordinary Crucio like Harry
> receives from
> 
> Voldemort in the graveyard in GoF but a prolonged Crucio by
> four DEs
> 
> that ended in their permanent incapicitation. There's a
> moving scene
> 
> involving Neville's mother, who dimly senses that
> Neville is important
> 
> to her. She can't speak, but she shows what remains of
> her love for
> 
> her son by giving him empty bubblegum wrappers. I was very
> 
> disappointed to see that scene cut from the film. As it is,
> it looks
> 
> as if Neville is contemplating revenge (not in the book)
> for a mere
> 
> Cruciatus Curse that happened fourteen years earlier. (Yes,
> the
> 
> Cruciatus Curse is an Unforgiveable and it's a form of
> torture, but
> 
> the victims don't usually suffer lasting harm. Neville
> is, to all
> 
> intents an orphan, just as Harry is. The difference is that
> his
> 
> parents are lying in a special ward in St. Mungo's
> where he can see
> 
> what's left of them at Christmas, but they will never
> recover from the
> 
> insanity that Bellatrix, Barty, and the Lestrange brothers
> inflicted
> 
> on them.
> 
> 
> 
> All of that is lost in the films, and to me it seems like
> a
> 
> significant loss.
> 
> The problem with comparing what happens in the books with what happens in the movies is the comparison of both  into one. One really needs to seperate each in order to formulate an understanding of the other.

Steve V.
> 
> Carol, glad that New Steve is still in the Movie group and
> wondering
> 
> if we should move this discussion there
> 
> 
> 
> 
>       
> 
>     
>     
> 	
> 	 
> 	
> 	
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 	
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 	
> 	
> 
> 
> 	
> 	
> 	
> 
> 


      




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 13 02:00:59 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 02:00:59 -0000
Subject: John Adams HBO series and real history
In-Reply-To: <b6e131bf0901121250k5494e381j846bfad654fbeba4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <gkgskr+89tv@eGroups.com>

Ali wrote:
> I think his mother's name was Susan or Elizabeth or something
> innocuous?  (Wikipedia tells me Susanna Boylston Adams.)  The only
> Hannah Adams I know of is this one:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannah_Adams
> 
> It does appear that she has a connection to John Adams, but a
distant cousin is much farther apart than the daughter that Carol
referenced.

Carol responds:

Oops. I wasn't looking closely at the dates. The John Adams I'm
descended from is President John Adams' great-great-great grandfather!
Hannah would be President John Adams' third cousin twice removed or
some such thing. Sorry about that! My aunt told me that we were
descended from John Adams. She just didn't say *which* John Adams!

But (looking more closely at the paper with the list of names and
dates on it) I can tell you that President John Adams's mother was
Susanna Boylston, so your information is correct.

Your Hannah Adams is the wrong one, about three generations too young.
Odd, though, that the connection between the Clark family (my
great-grandmother was a Clark) appears with both Hannahs. (I won't
bore anyone with details)

Carol, who at least knows that her descent from Martha Carrier is
direct and that it's the right Martha Carrier, hexed cattle and all :-) 




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 13 02:54:03 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 02:54:03 -0000
Subject: John Adams HBO series and real history
In-Reply-To: <gkgc04+n2p6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gkgvob+i9bm@eGroups.com>

-John Adams's grandmother was Hannah Bass.
> 
> Carol, JA is descended from John and Priscilla Alden. Doesn't that
line lead to Martha Carrier?
>
Carol:
Thanks for trying! Hannah Bass *was* descended from the Aldens, but
she married Joseph Adams, who was Hannah Adams' cousin, so unless
there's some other connection, Hannah Bass isn't my ancestor. And the
Carrier line of my ancestry goes through my father's father while the
Adams line goes through his mother. 

We've also got a connection with Sir Francis Drake (one ancestor is
his cousin); a Pilgrim ancestor, Richard Warren, whose descendants
eventually get connected with the Carrier line; a semi-famous colonial
preacher ancestor named Michael Wigglesworth; and a *possible*
connection with Francis Bacon that I haven't followed up. The
Ahnentafel charts give me a headache, and Ancestry.com is also hard to
follow unless your monitor is a lot bigger than mine.

It would have been nice to be descended from a President and a
*famous* pair of Pilgrims. Instead I get Pilgrims that no one ever
heard of and a Salem witch.

Carol, hoping she hasn't bored anybody with all this genealogy!




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 13 03:02:35 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 03:02:35 -0000
Subject: Carol's questions for New Steve Was: Tempest in a teapot/cup/kettle
In-Reply-To: <804125.27942.qm@web59411.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <gkh08b+10b91@eGroups.com>


> Steve V. Responds
> 
> Just like any other person who has followed the HP Movies intently
one comes to expect the unexpected. Your asking a movie question while
referring to the books. Its like putting an out house in an elevator
it dosen't fit.

> > The problem with comparing what happens in the books with what
happens in the movies is the comparison of both  into one. One really
needs to seperate each in order to formulate an understanding of the
other.
> 
> Steve V.

Carol:
Maybe I'm making it too detailed. Looking only at the films,
"Professor Moody" was Barty Crouch Jr., but now Harry is calling the
real Alastor Moody "Professor" and acting as if he knows him. I would
find that odd if I had watched only the films.

I would find it odder still that Barty Jr. is blamed for Crucioing the
Longbottoms (I *think* insanity is mentioned in that scene--it's
Karkaroff's hearing and he testifies against Barty), but in OoP, the
blame is shifted to Bellatrix Lestrange. Sirius Black says that they
suffered a fate worth than death; Neville says that they were Crucio'd
by Bellatrix Lestrange. No hint as to why they're not still around. No
mention of insanity or Barty Jr.

I would find that confusing. Evidently you don't.

Carol, who deliberately left out all reference to the books this time
around




From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 13 04:35:07 2009
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 04:35:07 -0000
Subject: Carol's questions for New Steve Was: Tempest in a teapot/cup/kettle
In-Reply-To: <804125.27942.qm@web59411.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <gkh5lr+39ta@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Stephen Vandecasteele
<vand195550 at ...> wrote:

> Just like any other person who has followed the HP Movies 
> intently one comes to expect the unexpected. Your asking 
> a movie question while referring to the books. 


I was wondering if it is clear from the movies alone that Harry's
Patronus is a stag, and why? The movie-makers stubbornly don't show
Harry's stag, even when they showed other DA members' Patronuses in
OotP. In PoA we once saw it kind of standing in a distance, but it is
never shown to chase away the Dementors, not in PoA, not in OotP.
Watching other kids' Patronuses in OotP was very cool, so I can't
understand why the movie-makers insist on showing Harry's Patronus as
just some white stuff instead of the stag.


zanooda, who thinks that Harry's stag is the most impressive of all
and would have looked spectacular on the screen ...




From vand195550 at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 13 04:49:42 2009
From: vand195550 at yahoo.com (steve)
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 04:49:42 -0000
Subject: Dan Radcliff(Harry Potter) News sort of
Message-ID: <gkh6h6+eoed@eGroups.com>

At 6:15 PM Tuesday Evening on Startz is December Boys starring Dan 
Radcliff who has appeared on the London Stage and Plays the title role 
in the Harry Potter Series.

Steve V.




From vand195550 at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 13 05:31:33 2009
From: vand195550 at yahoo.com (Stephen Vandecasteele)
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 21:31:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Carol's questions for New Steve Was: Tempest in a teapot/cup/kettle
Message-ID: <6073.34181.qm@web59409.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>




--- On Mon, 1/12/09, zanooda2 <zanooda2 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> From: zanooda2 <zanooda2 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Carol's questions for New Steve Was: Tempest in a teapot/cup/kettle
> To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
> Date: Monday, January 12, 2009, 11:35 PM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>     
>             --- In HPFGU-OTChatter@
> yahoogroups. com, Stephen Vandecasteele
> 
> <vand195550@ ...> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> > Just like any other person who has followed the HP
> Movies 
> 
> > intently one comes to expect the unexpected. Your
> asking 
> 
> > a movie question while referring to the books. 
> 
> 
> 
> I was wondering if it is clear from the movies alone that
> Harry's
> 
> Patronus is a stag,

Steve V. Now

Forgive me perhaps I missed something, "patronus is a stag".

What's a "stag"?


      




From md at exit-reality.com  Tue Jan 13 05:45:44 2009
From: md at exit-reality.com (Cabal)
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 00:45:44 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Carol's questions for New Steve Was: Tempest in a teapot/cup/kettle
In-Reply-To: <6073.34181.qm@web59409.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <6073.34181.qm@web59409.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <001201c97542$2e0c0200$8a240600$@com>



-----Original Message-----
From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
[mailto:HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Stephen Vandecasteele
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 12:32 AM
To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Carol's questions for New Steve Was:
Tempest in a teapot/cup/kettle


What's a "stag"?


      


------------------------------------
Doe, a dear, a female deer.

A stag would be the adult male.

md




From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 13 06:28:25 2009
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 06:28:25 -0000
Subject: Carol's questions for New Steve Was: Tempest in a teapot/cup/kettle
In-Reply-To: <001201c97542$2e0c0200$8a240600$@com>
Message-ID: <gkhca9+8bdq@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Cabal" <md at ...> wrote:


> A stag would be the adult male.


zanooda:

Yeah, I should have said deer, Steve, sorry :-). I don't know if the
word "stag" is used a lot, but they call it a stag all the time in the
book, so I asked about a stag. I take it it's a large male deer, with
antlers and all :-), but I really don't know much about it. So, is it
understandable from the movies that Harry's Patronus is a deer?




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Tue Jan 13 07:43:54 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 07:43:54 -0000
Subject: Carol's questions for New Steve Was: Tempest in a teapot/cup/kettle
In-Reply-To: <gkhca9+8bdq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gkhgnq+5vhu@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "zanooda2" <zanooda2 at ...> wrote:
>
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Cabal" <md@> wrote:
> 
> 
> > A stag would be the adult male.
> 
> 
> zanooda:
> 
> Yeah, I should have said deer, Steve, sorry :-). I don't know if the
> word "stag" is used a lot, but they call it a stag all the time in the
> book, so I asked about a stag. I take it it's a large male deer, with
> antlers and all :-), but I really don't know much about it. So, is it
> understandable from the movies that Harry's Patronus is a deer?

Geoff:
A stag is *any* male deer. In season, as you say it is recognisable by its 
antlers, in the winter by its larger size. I frequently see them, often within 
a couple of miles of home. My area is famous for its herds of Red deer.

In the film, when Harry first sees the Patronus, although it is fuzzy, the 
shape of a stag can be discerned.






From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Tue Jan 13 07:48:40 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 07:48:40 -0000
Subject: Appearance of messages/
In-Reply-To: <287177.93240.qm@web59407.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <gkhh0o+funp@eGroups.com>


Geoff:
Steve, is there a reason why your posts seem to appear with a peculiar 
format?

On my message screen, there is a line space between each line 
of text complete with a ">" and often long lines of ">" symbols 
between sections. 

It makes for very disjointed reading. Is it something to do with 
your software or server?




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Tue Jan 13 13:02:17 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 13:02:17 -0000
Subject: Carol's questions for New Steve Was: Tempest in a teapot/cup/kettle
In-Reply-To: <gkhgnq+5vhu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gki3cp+acqs@eGroups.com>

 
> Geoff:
> A stag is *any* male deer. In season, as you say it is recognisable 
by its 
> antlers, in the winter by its larger size. I frequently see them, 
often within 
> a couple of miles of home. My area is famous for its herds of Red 
deer.
> 
> In the film, when Harry first sees the Patronus, although it is 
fuzzy, the 
> shape of a stag can be discerned.


Potioncat:
You see stags near your home? It must be a very nice place to live. 
Sadly, what I generally see is dead deer on the roadside. I've never 
seen a stag here, although I saw some at Yellowstone. 

I will now take this thread to the movie site (hoping someone will 
follow.)





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 13 17:27:16 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 17:27:16 -0000
Subject: Carol's questions for New Steve Was: Tempest in a teapot/cup/kettle
In-Reply-To: <gkhca9+8bdq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gkiitk+u1fe@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "zanooda2" <zanooda2 at ...> wrote:
>
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Cabal" <md@> wrote:
> 
> 
> > A stag would be the adult male.
> 
> 
> zanooda:
> 
> Yeah, I should have said deer, Steve, sorry :-). I don't know if the
word "stag" is used a lot, but they call it a stag all the time in the
book, so I asked about a stag. I take it it's a large male deer, with
antlers and all :-), but I really don't know much about it. So, is it
understandable from the movies that Harry's Patronus is a deer?
>
Carol responds:

Actually, you're correct to say "stag," not only because it's the term
used in the books but because it indicates a male deer, and, as most
people know, male deer behave very differently from female deer
(does). The male is majestic looking (Bambi's father, anybody?) and
the antlers distinguish it from the female at a glance. Also, as the
films don't indicate, James Potter's Animagus form was a stag, which
is how we know that the Patronus symbolizes James.

So the question should be the one you originally asked, is it
understandable from the movies that Harry's Patronus is a stag (a male
deer)? (In the U.S., we would call it a buck, which somehow loses the
connotation of majesty (and whatever symbolism is attached to stags in
mythology and folklore).

Here's the Stag Patronus from the PoA film:

http://www.quizfarm.com/section_image/2007/07/20/170277/Patronus.jpg

There's also a movie poster from OoP showing Harry with a rather
different Stag Patronus:

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.123posters.com/images/movie/f-harrypotter10.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.123posters.com/harrypotter10.htm&usg=__wx29lG7h25xVhQvOD8AGGGr2qDo=&h=365&w=240&sz=25&hl=en&start=9&sig2=LmFEHH8Zbn4Af3hS9Xqqng&tbnid=FpP6ivcOxvvc7M:&tbnh=121&tbnw=80&ei=3stsSeOjKp68MfP9-LQL&prev=/images%3Fq%3DHarry%2BPotter%2Bstag%2BPatronus%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26sa%3DG

Here's a tinyurl in case the long one doesn't work:

http://tinyurl.com/7v75z4

I've heard that you can slow down the footage in OoP and actually see
the stag (doesn't work with my annoying DVD remote), but what's the
point of that? It needs to be visible on the screen or viewers will
just think it's a bunch of bright light.

So, New Steve, did you know that Harry's Patronus was a male deer?
That's the question at the moment.

Carol, who thought that the Dementors in the OoP film were less scary
and realistic than the Dementors in the PoA film






From md at exit-reality.com  Tue Jan 13 18:05:27 2009
From: md at exit-reality.com (Cabal)
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 13:05:27 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Carol's questions for New Steve Was: Tempest in a teapot/cup/kettle
In-Reply-To: <gkhca9+8bdq@eGroups.com>
References: <001201c97542$2e0c0200$8a240600$@com> <gkhca9+8bdq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <010901c975a9$8401e7d0$8c05b770$@com>



-----Original Message-----
From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
[mailto:HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of zanooda2
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 1:28 AM
To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Carol's questions for New Steve Was: Tempest
in a teapot/cup/kettle
So, is it
understandable from the movies that Harry's Patronus is a deer?


------------------------------------
A deer is a generic name, the Doe is the female the Stag the male and the
Fawn is the young regardless of gender. Males are also referred to as Bucks.
(I live in Bucks County, wonder where it got its name?)

md




From md at exit-reality.com  Tue Jan 13 18:08:37 2009
From: md at exit-reality.com (Cabal)
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 13:08:37 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Carol's questions for New Steve Was: Tempest in a teapot/cup/kettle
In-Reply-To: <gkhgnq+5vhu@eGroups.com>
References: <gkhca9+8bdq@eGroups.com> <gkhgnq+5vhu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <010a01c975a9$f521ddd0$df659970$@com>



-----Original Message-----
From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
[mailto:HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Geoff Bannister
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 2:44 AM
To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Carol's questions for New Steve Was: Tempest
in a teapot/cup/kettle


In the film, when Harry first sees the Patronus, although it is fuzzy, the 
shape of a stag can be discerned.


:::::::::::::::::::::

My only real complaint to OOTP (other than it should have been 30 min
longer) is that the stag does not come when he fights the dementors, just
white light, yet later they show DA producing all the animal patronus's -- I
could understand either leaving it out so it doesn't confuse non-book
readers, or putting it in because it's part of the books, but to have it not
be an animal in the beginning of the film and then be all animals in the
middle makes no sense. 

md




From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Tue Jan 13 18:29:52 2009
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 18:29:52 -0000
Subject: Carol's questions for New Steve Was: Tempest in a teapot/cup/kettle
In-Reply-To: <gkiitk+u1fe@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gkimj0+p1hs@eGroups.com>

Carol:
> So, New Steve, did you know that Harry's Patronus was a male deer?
> That's the question at the moment.

Magpie:
Is it clear the stag=James' animagus form? Do they ever say it is (in 
the movie, obviously)?

-m




From md at exit-reality.com  Tue Jan 13 21:55:58 2009
From: md at exit-reality.com (Cabal)
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 16:55:58 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Carol's questions for New Steve Was: Tempest in a teapot/cup/kettle
In-Reply-To: <gkimj0+p1hs@eGroups.com>
References: <gkiitk+u1fe@eGroups.com> <gkimj0+p1hs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <006101c975c9$b9efda30$2dcf8e90$@com>



-----Original Message-----


Magpie:
Is it clear the stag=James' animagus form? Do they ever say it is (in 
the movie, obviously)?

-m


------------------------------------
I believe - but don't quote me until verified -- that Lupin mentions it in
POA.

md




From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 14 02:48:32 2009
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 02:48:32 -0000
Subject: Carol's questions for New Steve Was: Tempest in a teapot/cup/kettle
In-Reply-To: <gkhgnq+5vhu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gkjjq0+p8hf@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister"
<gbannister10 at ...> wrote:

> A stag is *any* male deer. 


I don't know, Geoff, I read a little about deer today, and my
understanding was that with large deer (like red deer) it's "stag" for
 males, "hind" for females, and "calf" for the young, but with smaller
deer (like fallow deer) it's "buck" for males, "doe" for females, and
"fawn" for the young. Mind you, I still don't know much about deer or
animals in general :-).


zanooda




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 14 03:49:04 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 03:49:04 -0000
Subject: Stag symbolism
In-Reply-To: <gkjjq0+p8hf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gkjnbg+t7cu@eGroups.com>

zanooda wrote:
> I don't know, Geoff, I read a little about deer today, and my
understanding was that with large deer (like red deer) it's "stag" for
 males, "hind" for females, and "calf" for the young, but with smaller
deer (like fallow deer) it's "buck" for males, "doe" for females, and
"fawn" for the young. Mind you, I still don't know much about deer or
animals in general :-).

Carol responds:

Sounds as if JKR is as confused as the rest of us, since she uses
"stag" and "doe." With respect to Harry's Patronus, JKR may have
consulted mythology and folklore or simply associated certain traits
with a stag that may or may not fit James as he's depicted in the
books (the film James is "a swine")--or possibly, Harry's idealized
view of him. I found this description of stag (and doe) symbolism on a
website on Celtic symbols:

"The stag of ancient times was considered a beast of royal lineage, an
incarnation of woodland gods, and associated with fertility. White
stags were especially revered and as they were thought to originate
from the Otherworld and thus had immense power. The white stag (or
doe) was said to represent the ancestors of the Celtic people and was
thought to usher in profound change. Following a white stag was said
to lead the person into contact with supernatural beings. Deer formed
the main food source for the Celtic people and the act of hunting was
symbolic of the pursuit of wisdom. The deer is associated with
mildness, caring, love, sensitivity, alertness and grace. Because of
their fine-tuned senses the deer is said to be able to guide a person
through confusing and difficult situations by allowing them to see
through any illusions. The Celts drew heavily on nature to understand
their own doubts and fears. The stag is the perfect symbol of the
metamorphosis and growth of the soul allowing development of all
levels of consciousness. <snip>"

The attributes associated with stags (or deer in general), according
to this website, are "spiritual growth / high ideals / independence /
gentleness / dignity / endurance / love"

http://www.thirdcoastrs.com/celtic_symbol_custom_stamps.htm

While most of us would not associate James with "mildness, caring,
love, [and] sensitivity" (unless we count love for his wife and son),
the part about metamorphosis is certainly apt. And those of us who
have read the books may have some thoughts about a certain doe
Patronus as well (Steve V. says that he doesn't mind spoilers, but I'm
afraid I'm giving away a lot here!).

Carol, now thinking of the irony of a stag running with a werewolf
when both wolves and men (werewolf = man wolf) hunt deer as prey





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 14 04:00:17 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 04:00:17 -0000
Subject: Afterthought on animal symbolism
Message-ID: <gkjo0h+tslo@eGroups.com>

It just occurred to me that the symbols of three of the four Houses at
Hogwarts (badger, snake, and eagle) are represented, as are two of the
three wand core animals (dragons and unicorns), as well as ravens
(which ought, IMO, to be Ravenclaw's symbol) and magpies (winks at
Magpie). The swan and hare )Cho's and Luna's respective Patronuses)
are also listed.
If you're curious as to how well the Celtic symbolism correlates with
the Houses and characters associated with those animals, the URL
(again) is 

http://www.thirdcoastrs.com/celtic_symbol_custom_stamps.htm

Carol, noting the irony of the verse associated with Sirius, the dog
star, as regards his HP counterpart: "Dog days bright and clear;
Indicate a happy year." 




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Wed Jan 14 07:41:13 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 07:41:13 -0000
Subject: Carol's questions for New Steve Was: Tempest in a teapot/cup/kettle
In-Reply-To: <gkjjq0+p8hf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gkk4up+s260@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "zanooda2" <zanooda2 at ...> wrote:
>
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister"
> <gbannister10@> wrote:
> 
> > A stag is *any* male deer. 

zanooda:
> I don't know, Geoff, I read a little about deer today, and my
> understanding was that with large deer (like red deer) it's "stag" for
>  males, "hind" for females, and "calf" for the young, but with smaller
> deer (like fallow deer) it's "buck" for males, "doe" for females, and
> "fawn" for the young. Mind you, I still don't know much about deer or
> animals in general :-).

Geoff:
I think this may be one of those UK/US linguistic things. Locally, we 
certainly talk about fawns and  I can't recall hearing buck used very much 
at all.




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Wed Jan 14 12:41:10 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 12:41:10 -0000
Subject: Carol's questions for New Steve Was: Tempest in a teapot/cup/kettle
In-Reply-To: <gkk4up+s260@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gkkmh6+g3u5@eGroups.com>

 
> Geoff:
> I think this may be one of those UK/US linguistic things. Locally, we 
> certainly talk about fawns and  I can't recall hearing buck used very 
much 
> at all.
>

Potioncat:
I think so too. The images and associations that come with "buck" are 
different than with "stag". Could be that the deer in the US are a 
different type than found in England---don't know. But if I'd read that 
James's Animagus form was a buck, I'd get a differnt feel about it than 
it being a stag.

A stag would be found on tapestries and in heraldry. A buck is from the 
American frontier and west. In the US buck was also used to describe 
young men. Is stag ever used that way in the UK?


But I wonder why the US uses the term buck at all? At the time we were 
building the country and naming animals, we were still English.




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Wed Jan 14 12:44:59 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 12:44:59 -0000
Subject: Afterthought on animal symbolism
In-Reply-To: <gkjo0h+tslo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gkkmob+66q3@eGroups.com>

 "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:
snip:
 as well as ravens
> (which ought, IMO, to be Ravenclaw's symbol) 

Potioncat:
I used to think so too. But I read somewhere that it's raven claw, not 
raven's claw. Which makes it a black claw. Although, I thought Eagles 
had a yellow/brown claw.

For that matter, why isn't Gryffindor's animal a gryffin? And why are 
all these tokens Muggle animals rather than magical ones?






From md at exit-reality.com  Wed Jan 14 13:06:08 2009
From: md at exit-reality.com (Cabal)
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 08:06:08 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Carol's questions for New Steve Was: Tempest in a teapot/cup/kettle
In-Reply-To: <gkkmh6+g3u5@eGroups.com>
References: <gkk4up+s260@eGroups.com> <gkkmh6+g3u5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <007201c97648$dfa8e300$9efaa900$@com>



-----Original Message-----
From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
[mailto:HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of potioncat
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 7:41 AM
To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Carol's questions for New Steve Was: Tempest
in a teapot/cup/kettle



But I wonder why the US uses the term buck at all? At the time we were 
building the country and naming animals, we were still English.


------------------------------------
English? Spanish. French. Virtually everyone that could get on a boat and
come here. Plus, don't forget, the natives who had already built here. We
didn't build this country, we conquered it, plundered it (still are) and
purchased other humans to build it. 

But, that aside, English is an adoptive language, very little of it is
"ours." First, it was actually German first, since what is now England was
originally settled by Germanic tribes, which were then combined with the
conquering / settling Anglos and Saxons but didn't emerge as English as we
know it until after the French occupation. So the English language was and
is many languages all put together. 

But, the British where neither the first or the only settlers in the
Americas. 

md




From dumbledad at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Jan 14 13:17:30 2009
From: dumbledad at yahoo.co.uk (Tim Regan)
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 13:17:30 -0000
Subject: Carol's questions for New Steve Was: Tempest in a teapot/cup/kettle
In-Reply-To: <gkk4up+s260@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gkkola+cgl5@eGroups.com>

Hi All,

(Sorry if you get an early unedited copy of this post ? the perils 
of using a beta OS!)

Geoff said:

>>>A stag is *any* male deer<<<

>>>I think this may be one of those UK/US linguistic things<<<

I don't think so. Here's what the Oxford English Dictionary has to 
say ...

>>>Stag, n.  1. a. The male of a deer,  esp. of the red deer;  
spec. a hart or male deer of the fifth year. (In the 15th c. stag 
of a hart.)<<<

>>>Hart. 1. The male of the deer, esp. of the red deer; a stag; 
spec. a male deer after its fifth year.<<<

>>>Buck, n.
1.  The male of several animals.
 a. The he-goat. Obs. exc. U.S. Phrase, to blow the buck's horn: 
to have his labour for his pains.
  b. The male of the fallow-deer.  (In early use perh.  the male 
of any kind of deer.)  buck of the first head, great buck (see 
quot. 1774). 
 c. The male of certain other animals resembling deer or goats, as 
the reindeer, chamois; in S. Africa (after Du. bok) any animal of 
the antelope kind.  Also the male of the hare, the rabbit (the 
female being called the doe,  after analogy of b), and (in quot. 
1904) the ferret. <<<

That ties in with the UK English I've encountered: a buck would be 
a young/small male deer, while a stag would have big antlers and 
do that scary rutting crash thing.

Cheers,

Dumbledad




From md at exit-reality.com  Wed Jan 14 13:57:35 2009
From: md at exit-reality.com (Cabal)
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 08:57:35 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Carol's questions for New Steve Was: Tempest in a teapot/cup/kettle
In-Reply-To: <gkkola+cgl5@eGroups.com>
References: <gkk4up+s260@eGroups.com> <gkkola+cgl5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <001801c97650$108e1ce0$31aa56a0$@com>



-----Original Message-----
From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
[mailto:HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tim Regan
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 8:18 AM
To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Carol's questions for New Steve Was: Tempest
in a teapot/cup/kettle

That ties in with the UK English I've encountered: a buck would be 
a young/small male deer, while a stag would have big antlers and 
do that scary rutting crash thing.

Cheers,

Dumbledad


------------------------------------
As an English teacher, I am mad at myself for not checking entomology in the
first place.

stag  
c.1185, probably from O.E. *stagga "stag," from P.Gmc. *stag- (see sting).
The O.N. equivalent was used of male foxes, tomcats and dragons and the Gmc.
root word probably originally meant "male animal in its prime." Meaning
"pertaining to or composed of males only" (stag party) is Amer.Eng. slang
from 1848. Stag film "pornographic movie" is attested from 1968.




From kenadams705 at btinternet.com  Wed Jan 14 14:30:02 2009
From: kenadams705 at btinternet.com (KEN ADAMS)
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 14:30:02 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Carol's questions for New Steve Was: Tempest in a teapot/cup/kettle
References: <gkkmh6+g3u5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <291204.12279.qm@web87016.mail.ird.yahoo.com>



The term Buck derives from the Afrikaans, post Dutch, word Bok. It is commonly used in Africa today to refer to many ( especially male) ?Antelope whch although Ungulates are in a taxonomically different group?to deer. It may be that it is used in the United states today? because of the Dutch ancestry and/or because of the presnce in the United States of a slightly displaced (zoologically) deer called the antelope.
KEN


________________________________


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Wed Jan 14 14:33:24 2009
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 14:33:24 -0000
Subject: Stag symbolism
In-Reply-To: <gkjnbg+t7cu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gkkt3k+605p@eGroups.com>

> Carol, now thinking of the irony of a stag running with a werewolf
> when both wolves and men (werewolf = man wolf) hunt deer as prey

Magpie:
I was always very aware of that because it seemed so fitting. For all 
James' impressive antlers, his main role in the story is as a sacrifice 
who was killed by Voldemort.

-m





From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Wed Jan 14 14:36:18 2009
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 14:36:18 -0000
Subject: Afterthought on animal symbolism
In-Reply-To: <gkjo0h+tslo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gkkt93+jj3q@eGroups.com>

> It just occurred to me that the symbols of three of the four Houses at
> Hogwarts (badger, snake, and eagle) are represented, as are two of the
> three wand core animals (dragons and unicorns), as well as ravens
> (which ought, IMO, to be Ravenclaw's symbol) and magpies (winks at
> Magpie). The swan and hare )Cho's and Luna's respective Patronuses)
> are also listed.
> If you're curious as to how well the Celtic symbolism correlates with
> the Houses and characters associated with those animals, the URL
> (again) is 
> 
> http://www.thirdcoastrs.com/celtic_symbol_custom_stamps.htm
> 
> Carol, noting the irony of the verse associated with Sirius, the dog
> star, as regards his HP counterpart: "Dog days bright and clear;
> Indicate a happy year."

Magpie:
>From what I know about Celtic mythology, the swan was very fitting for 
Cho, as is the hare for Luna. I like those two choices.

It's always bugged me that Ravenclaw was an eagle. I mean...hello? 
Ravens? Associated with knowledge, even? Eagles are important in Celtic 
mythology too, of course, but having a special love for corvids (*winks 
back at Carol*) I couldn't help but feel like they were a little 
dissed. I wondered if JKR just naturally leaned more towards animals 
associated with courage and away from the ones that had more Gothic 
associations or were associated with death or ill-omen.

-m




From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Wed Jan 14 14:40:13 2009
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 14:40:13 -0000
Subject: Carol's questions for New Steve Was: Tempest in a teapot/cup/kettle
In-Reply-To: <gkkola+cgl5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gkktgd+l0g1@eGroups.com>

Dumbledad:
> That ties in with the UK English I've encountered: a buck would be 
> a young/small male deer, while a stag would have big antlers and 
> do that scary rutting crash thing.

Magpie:
Right--and when men are referred to as bucks it's almost always "young 
buck" or with some indication of youth/immaturity. Even in America I 
tend to hear "stag" more used to described a big deer with big antlers, 
while a buck is a younger male deer. I have usually just used doe and 
fawn for the females. I know the word hind but don't usually use it. 
(And hart I usually associate with the deer on pub signs--especially 
white harts.)

-m




From kenadams705 at btinternet.com  Wed Jan 14 14:42:56 2009
From: kenadams705 at btinternet.com (KEN ADAMS)
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 14:42:56 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Afterthought on Buck
References: <gkkmh6+g3u5@eGroups.com> <291204.12279.qm@web87016.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <790083.70992.qm@web87010.mail.ird.yahoo.com>

Just to add to the confusion the Afrikaans word Bok translates in English as Goat Perhaps we would be better keeping the word Stag to refer strictly to deer and Bok to Antelope.
KEN




________________________________
From: KEN ADAMS <kenadams705 at btinternet.com>
To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, 14 January, 2009 2:30:02 PM
Subject: Re: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Carol's questions for New Steve Was: Tempest in a teapot/cup/kettle




The term Buck derives from the Afrikaans, post Dutch, word Bok. It is commonly used in Africa today to refer to many ( especially male) ?Antelope whch although Ungulates are in a taxonomically different group?to deer. It may be that it is used in the United states today? because of the Dutch ancestry and/or because of the presnce in the United States of a slightly displaced (zoologically) deer called the antelope.
KEN

____________ _________ _________ __

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 14 15:46:33 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 15:46:33 -0000
Subject: Carol's questions for New Steve Was: Tempest in a teapot/cup/kettle
In-Reply-To: <007201c97648$dfa8e300$9efaa900$@com>
Message-ID: <gkl1cp+au7q@eGroups.com>

Potioncat wrote: 
> But I wonder why the US uses the term buck at all? At the time we
were building the country and naming animals, we were still English.

Cabal replied:
> English? Spanish. French. Virtually everyone that could get on a
boat and come here. Plus, don't forget, the natives who had already
built here. <sip> 
> 
> But, that aside, English is an adoptive language, very little of it
is "ours." First, it was actually German first, since what is now
England was originally settled by Germanic tribes, which were then
combined with the conquering / settling Anglos and Saxons but didn't
emerge as English as we know it until after the French occupation. So
the English language was and is many languages all put together. 
> 
> But, the British where neither the first or the only settlers in the
> Americas. 

Carol responds:

Er, English was originally a Germanic language spoken by the Angles
(not Anglos), Saxons, and Jutes who settled parts of what is now
England (such as East Anglia, Sussex, and Kent). They did not speak
German, which is a modern language, but Old Saxon, which quickly
developed into Anglo-Saxon, the ancestor of modern English, splitting
off from the Saxon language spoken on the continent, now called Low
German. (Dutch is descended from Low German and German is descended
from High German, with "high" and "low" relating to altitude, not
social status.) Nor were the Angles, Saxons, and Jutes the original
settlers of England, which was inhabited at the time by Romanized
Celts. Other Celtic tribes and Picts, who may or may not have been
Celtic, inhabited other parts of Britain. The north was invaded and
later settled by Vikings. Earlier still, Britain had been occupied by
nameless Neolithic tribes, which blended with the Celts.

As for American English, it was shaped at first primarily by the
British. French, Native American, and Spanish words entered it at
various times, but it was and remains English, a world language that
all of us are using. (Its variants are the topic of many of our
posts.) The settlers of the original thirteen colonies spoke English
and thought of themselves as British until the Revolutionary War.

As for "buck," the term used in the U.S, for male deer (I've never
heard an American deer referred to as a stag), it's quite old--and
it's derived from Anglo-Saxon (Old English).

>From Merriam-Webster Online:

Main Entry:
    buck 
<snip>
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English bucca stag, he-goat; akin
to Old High German boc he-goat, Middle Irish bocc

Date: before 12th century 

1 <snip> buck : a male animal; especially : a male deer or antelope  
2a: a male human being: man b: a dashing fellow : dandy 3 <snip>:
antelope 4a: buckskin; also: an article (as a shoe) made of buckskin 
b(1): dollar (2): a sum of money especially to be gained <make a quick
buck>; also : money?usually used in plural 5  [short for sawbuck
sawhorse]  a: a supporting rack or frame b: a short thick
leather-covered block for gymnastic vaulting

"Stag" dates from the same period:

Main entry:
    stag 
<snip>
Etymology:
    Middle English stagge, from Old English stagga; akin to Old Norse
andarsteggi drake

Date: 12th century

1 <snip>: an adult male red deer; also: the male of various other deer
(especially genus Cervus) 2 chiefly Scottish: a young horse;
especially: a young unbroken stallion 3: a male animal castrated after
sexual maturity ? compare steer 4: a young adult male domestic chicken
or turkey 5a: a social gathering of men only b: one who attends a
dance or party without a companion

So it looks as if "stag" relates mainly to red deer and other
(smaller?) male deer are bucks. "Buck" is related to the word for a
male goat and "stag," interestingly, to the word for "drake" (in the
sense of a male duck, not a dragon).

But both words date to the twelfth century, long before the settling
of America.

Carol, who agrees with Potioncat that the connotations of "buck" are
different--and less regal or majestic--than those of "stag," at least
as they relate to a male deer








From kenadams705 at btinternet.com  Wed Jan 14 15:59:16 2009
From: kenadams705 at btinternet.com (KEN ADAMS)
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 15:59:16 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Carol's questions for New Steve Was: Tempest in a teapot/cup/kettle
References: <gkktgd+l0g1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <750366.85672.qm@web87016.mail.ird.yahoo.com>

Excuse me I had to nip out to the White Hart to order a table for dinner.
A stag is a male deer, whereas a hart is a mature, full grown deer at least five years old. White harts probably have more place in legend than in nature (see Carol, earlier today). A white hart would be an albino ( and therefore rare) mature male deer. Pubs though are commonly called The White Hart, probably because of their importance in legend.?
KEN




________________________________
From: sistermagpie <sistermagpie at earthlink.net>
To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
SA stag is a male deerent: Wednesday, 14 January, 2009 2:40:13 PM
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Carol's questions for New Steve Was: Tempest in a teapot/cup/kettle


Dumbledad:
> That ties in with the UK English I've encountered: a buck would be 
> a young/small male deer, while a stag would have big antlers and 
> do that scary rutting crash thing.

Magpie:
Right--and when men are referred to as bucks it's almost always "young 
buck" or with some indication of youth/immaturity. Even in America I 
tend to hear "stag" more used to described a big deer with big antlers, 
while a buck is a younger male deer. I have usually just used doe and 
fawn for the females. I know the word hind but don't usually use it. 
(And hart I usually associate with the deer on pub signs--especially 
white harts.)

-m

 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 14 16:11:38 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 16:11:38 -0000
Subject: Buck vs, stag
In-Reply-To: <gkkola+cgl5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gkl2rq+mh7f@eGroups.com>

Dumbledad wrote:
> I don't think so. Here's what the Oxford English Dictionary has to 
> say ...
> 
> >>>Stag, n.  1. a. The male of a deer,  esp. of the red deer;  
> spec. a hart or male deer of the fifth year. (In the 15th c. stag 
> of a hart.)<<<
> 
> >>>Hart. 1. The male of the deer, esp. of the red deer; a stag; 
> spec. a male deer after its fifth year.<<<
> 
> >>>Buck, n.
> 1.  The male of several animals.
>  a. The he-goat. <snip>
>   b. The male of the fallow-deer.  (In early use perh.  the male 
> of any kind of deer.)  buck of the first head, great buck (see 
> quot. 1774). <snip>
>
> That ties in with the UK English I've encountered: a buck would be 
> a young/small male deer, while a stag would have big antlers and 
> do that scary rutting crash thing.

Carol responds:

But specifically a stag is a mature male *red* deer. (A hart is a male
red deer at least five years old.) A buck would be a young male red
deer or a male fallow deer. (A fallow deer is apparently smaller than
a red deer and yellowish brown, spotted like a fawn in summer. here's
an illustration:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/art/dict/fallowde.htm )

American deer 

The etymology of "deer" is also interesting and perhaps hints at the
mythology and symbolism surrounding them:

Main Entry:
    deer <snip>

Etymology:
    Middle English, deer, animal, from Old English dor beast; akin to
Old High German tior wild animal, Lithuanian dvasia breath, spirit

Date: before 12th century 

Note that not one of these words is borrowed. they're all native to
English. That also relates to "hart":

Main Entry:
    hart <snip>

Etymology:
    Middle English hert, from Old English heort; akin to Latin cervus
hart, Greek keras horn ? more at horn

Date: before 12th century

chiefly British: the male of the red deer especially when over five
years old : stag ? compare hind

"Hind" is the female red deer ("Whoso list to hunt, I know where is an
hind"--that "hind" being Anne Boleyn):

Main Entry:
    hind <snip>

Etymology:
    Middle English, from Old English; akin to Old High German hinta
hind, Greek kemas young deer

Date: before 12th century

1 : the female of the red deer ? compare hart 2: any of various
spotted groupers (especially genus Epinephelus)

For those unfamiliar with the line of poetry that I quoted, it comes
from a sonnet by Sir thomas Wyatt, which you can find here:

http://www.nellgavin.com/ThomasWyatt/

Conclusion: The English--make that the Germanic tribes both on the
continent and in Britain--were obsessed with deer from before the
twelfth century. And that's not even considering the body of *Celtic*
mythology indicating a similar obsession with animals in general,
including deer, on the part of the Celts.

Carol, who finds this thread edifying and hopes that others, do, too






From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 14 16:17:03 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 16:17:03 -0000
Subject: Carol's questions for New Steve Was: Tempest in a teapot/cup/kettle
In-Reply-To: <001801c97650$108e1ce0$31aa56a0$@com>
Message-ID: <gkl35v+7aea@eGroups.com>

Cabal wrote:
> As an English teacher, I am mad at myself for not checking
entomology in the
> first place.
> 
> stag  
> c.1185, probably from O.E. *stagga "stag," from P.Gmc. *stag- (see
sting). The O.N. equivalent was used of male foxes, tomcats and
dragons and the Gmc. root word probably originally meant "male animal
in its prime." Meaning "pertaining to or composed of males only" (stag
party) is Amer.Eng. slang from 1848. Stag film "pornographic movie" is
attested from 1968.
>
Carol responds:

Can you give us your source, which is probably better than mine. I
confess to resorting to an online dictionary, Merriam-Webster.

What is "P. Gmc"? Proto-Germanic? Is that a synonym for Old Low
German? ("O.E." is obviously Old English, aka Anglo-Saxon and "O.N>"
is obviously Old Norse.)

BTW, I'm sure that you meant "etymology," not "entomology," the study
of insects.

Carol, who has made plenty of similar typos!




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 14 16:20:45 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 16:20:45 -0000
Subject: Carol's questions for New Steve Was: Tempest in a teapot/cup/kettle
In-Reply-To: <291204.12279.qm@web87016.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <gkl3ct+pe2p@eGroups.com>

KEN ADAMS wrote:
>
> 
> 
> The term Buck derives from the Afrikaans, post Dutch, word Bok. It
is commonly used in Africa today to refer to many ( especially male)
? Antelope whch although Ungulates are in a taxonomically different
group? to deer. It may be that it is used in the United states today? 
because of the Dutch ancestry and/or because of the presnce in the
United States of a slightly displaced (zoologically) deer called the
antelope.

Carol responds:

More likely, the Afrikaans word derives from similar Germanic roots.
We've already shown that it dates to the twelfth century, ca. 1185,
according to Cabal's source.

Carol, noting that Dutch and English are closely related languages,
both derived from branches of Old Saxon




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 14 17:10:28 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 17:10:28 -0000
Subject: Afterthought on animal symbolism
In-Reply-To: <gkkt93+jj3q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gkl6a4+oc6l@eGroups.com>

Magpie wrote:
> From what I know about Celtic mythology, the swan was very fitting
for Cho, as is the hare for Luna. I like those two choices.

Carol responds:
Yes. Me, too.

Magpie: 
> It's always bugged me that Ravenclaw was an eagle. I mean...hello? 
Ravens? Associated with knowledge, even? Eagles are important in
Celtic mythology too, of course, but having a special love for corvids
(*winks back at Carol*)I couldn't help but feel like they were a
little dissed. 

Carol:
Right. Ravens can be taught to talk. And look at their role in, say,
"The Hobbit," where they're wise birds who help the Dwarves. (Contrast
crows, which Tolkien evidently doesn't like.)

Magpie:
 I wondered if JKR just naturally leaned more towards animals
associated with courage and away from the ones that had more Gothic
associations or were associated with death or ill-omen.

Carol:
That could be. Or maybe, for SS/PS, she was looking at animals that
her young readers (British children in particular) would be familiar
with. Children might automatically lump lions (the only non-British
animal in the group), eagles, and badgers together as "good" animals
with snakes as the "bad" animal while adult readers might have a more
realistic perception of all the animals involved and a more
sophisticated awareness of connotations, symbolism, and mythology or
folklore. How much of that folklore JKR consciously considered when
she chose the animals to represent the Houses or assigned as
Patronuses to various characters is the question that interests me now.

Setting aside lions, which aren't included in Celtic mythology (I
suppose we could consider Greek mythology or just our own "king of the
jungle" stereotype for them), we have:

Badger:  courage / tenacity / dream guidance / individuality

Eagle:  resurrection / rebirth / wisdom / reality / keen sight

Snake:  wisdom / good fortune / healing / spiritual energy / cunning /
transformation

Hmmm. Looks like the badger should have been the symbol of Gryffindor,
and any one of those symbols to some degree fits Harry. They don't
seem to fit the Houses particularly well, unfortunately. Maybe I just
need a different website!

Carol, now leaning toward the view that JKR chose the House animals
based on children's perceptions of the creatures involved







From md at exit-reality.com  Wed Jan 14 18:14:54 2009
From: md at exit-reality.com (Cabal)
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 13:14:54 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Carol's questions for New Steve Was: Tempest in a teapot/cup/kettle
In-Reply-To: <gkl1cp+au7q@eGroups.com>
References: <007201c97648$dfa8e300$9efaa900$@com> <gkl1cp+au7q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <007c01c97674$00c368a0$024a39e0$@com>



-----Original Message-----
From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
[mailto:HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Carol
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 10:47 AM
To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Carol's questions for New Steve Was: Tempest
in a teapot/cup/kettle

Carol responds:

Er, English was originally a Germanic language spoken by the Angles
(not Anglos), Saxons, and Jutes who settled parts of what is now
England (such as East Anglia, Sussex, and Kent). They did not speak
German, which is a modern language, but Old Saxon, which quickly
developed into Anglo-Saxon, the ancestor of modern English, splitting
off from the Saxon language spoken on the continent, now called Low
German. (Dutch is descended from Low German and German is descended
from High German, with "high" and "low" relating to altitude, not
social status.) Nor were the Angles, Saxons, and Jutes the original
settlers of England, which was inhabited at the time by Romanized
Celts. Other Celtic tribes and Picts, who may or may not have been
Celtic, inhabited other parts of Britain. The north was invaded and
later settled by Vikings. Earlier still, Britain had been occupied by
nameless Neolithic tribes, which blended with the Celts.
::::::::::::::::::::::

So I'll got tell the Head of my English Dept. and the Provost who teaches
linguistics that they are wrong?

England was settled by the Germanic tribes before the Anglos and Saxons ever
arrived -- they spoke German -- they couldn't have spoke old Saxon first
because they where there for generations before the Saxons -- I have taken
two courses in the last two years alone and have three textbooks that tell
the same story.

md




From vand195550 at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 14 18:35:51 2009
From: vand195550 at yahoo.com (steve)
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 18:35:51 -0000
Subject: My Name
Message-ID: <gklba7+s5e7@eGroups.com>

I know no one means any harm but would appreciate it if I were refered 
to as Steve V. instead of New Steve.

Thank You

Steve V.




From n2fgc at arrl.net  Wed Jan 14 19:11:48 2009
From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force)
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 14:11:48 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] My Name
In-Reply-To: <gklba7+s5e7@eGroups.com>
References: <gklba7+s5e7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <0653FCBD7210429F8821C947B4DB548E@musiclee>

[Steve V. writes]:
| I know no one means any harm but would appreciate it if I 
| were refered 
| to as Steve V. instead of New Steve.
| 
| Thank You

[Lee]:
Hmm--don't laugh, but "B." and V." sound similar with some text-to-speech
synthesizers used by those of us who are visually impaired. :-)  Uh--how
about "Steve Van?"  That can't be messed up by a synth.

Just a thinking from a tired brain.

Cheers,

Lee :-)




From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 14 19:28:22 2009
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 19:28:22 -0000
Subject: Carol's questions for  Steve V.
In-Reply-To: <gkk4up+s260@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gklecm+g2gv@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister"
<gbannister10 at ...> wrote:

> I think this may be one of those UK/US linguistic things. 
> Locally, we certainly talk about fawns and  I can't recall 
> hearing buck used very much at all.


zanooda:

That may be :-). It just seems a little strange if you, for instance,
call a male fallow deer "a stag" :-). Fallow deer are kind of small
and cute, and they don't look "that" impressive or majestic, even with
big antlers :-):

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t32/FiberFantasies/BlogPhotos/BribingFallowDeer.jpg

Wikipedia also says that males and females of the largest deer (I
don't know whom they mean, elk, maybe?) are called like cattle - bulls
and cows :-).

P.S. A few weeks ago some crazy guy killed a white-tailed deer that
lived in a park where we used to go for walks ;-(. Park visitors
always loved  that deer, he was very tame and all. His name was
"Mr.Buck", BTW ... ;-(.






From s_ings at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 14 20:34:43 2009
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 20:34:43 -0000
Subject: What should we do next?
Message-ID: <gkli93+pqpl@eGroups.com>

The List Elves look in wonder at the gathering crowd.

Phlytie Elf: "I see some new faces!"
Marvin Elf: "And lots of familiar ones, too."
Corbie Elf: "Are they expecting a party?"
Zaney Elf: "I think they just want to let us know tbeir ideas."
Exmoor Elf: "Well, let's pass the nibblies and settle down to hear 
what they think."

As you know from our post on the Main list, we're looking for some 
feedback.What do we do next? Should we start over from the beginning 
with new chapter discussions? Considering it'll take a long time if 
we do it every couple weeks, how should we move it along? Instead of 
one chapter at a time, should we lump two chapters together in a 
summary, or even a larger number of chapters? Should we post them
one at a time but each week, instead of every two weeks? Have two or 
more members posting summaries each week?

Help yourself to the nibblies and drinks and settle in to tell us 
what you'd prefer to do.

The List Elves




From s_ings at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 14 20:43:12 2009
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 12:43:12 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Happy Birthday, Mike!
Message-ID: <794983.72677.qm@web63402.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

*hangs streamers and nearly runs out of breath blowing up balloons*

Okay, I know you're all here for the discussion on what to do next, but we have something else equally important going on in here today - a birthday!

Hmmm.... I guess that means I better double the food and mix up a few more drinks. <g>

Today's birthday honouree is Mike, our very own Phlytie Elf! Birthday wishes can be sent care of this list or directly to Mike at: mcrudele78 at yahoo.com

*disappears suddenly and reappears bearing a towering, if slightly crooked, cake*

Almost forgot the most important thing, that cake! What kind of celebration would it be without cake? 

Mike, I hope your day is magical and brings everything you wished for.

Happy Birthday, Mike!

Sheryll the Birthday Elf


      __________________________________________________________________
Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now at
http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com.



From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Wed Jan 14 21:01:28 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 21:01:28 -0000
Subject: Carol's questions for New Steve Was: Tempest in a teapot/cup/kettle
In-Reply-To: <007201c97648$dfa8e300$9efaa900$@com>
Message-ID: <gkljr8+i3v6@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Cabal" <md at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of potioncat
> Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 7:41 AM
> To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Carol's questions for New Steve Was: Tempest
> in a teapot/cup/kettle
 
> But I wonder why the US uses the term buck at all? At the time we were 
> building the country and naming animals, we were still English.
 
md:
> English? Spanish. French. Virtually everyone that could get on a boat and
> come here. Plus, don't forget, the natives who had already built here. We
> didn't build this country, we conquered it, plundered it (still are) and
> purchased other humans to build it. 
> 
> But, that aside, English is an adoptive language, very little of it is
> "ours." First, it was actually German first, since what is now England was
> originally settled by Germanic tribes, which were then combined with the
> conquering / settling Anglos and Saxons but didn't emerge as English as we
> know it until after the French occupation. So the English language was and
> is many languages all put together. 

Geoff:
Strictly speaking, that isn't accurate. At the time of the Norman Conquest, 
the general language of Britain was Anglo-Saxon. German and English are 
closely related languages. During the early years of the Normans, French 
was the official language and Anglo-Saxon was left in the hands of the 
yeomans and peasants and in the intervening period, they did interesting 
things like largely demolishing gender and annihilating most of the case 
structure and inflection, the combination of the two ending up by giving 
us possibly one of the most expressive languages in the world.

Tolkien was a great upholder of the Anglo-Saxon/German background of 
the language and scorned the "French connection".

Like any living language, English absorbs new words and often adapts them 
to its own usage.

Moving on to bucks and stags, Tim obviously lives in the wild, untamed wilds 
and trackless forests and mountains of East Anglia. :-))

I live in an area where deer hunting has been a part of the culture for years; 
I do not hear the word buck being used. There are certainly a number of White 
Harts around - I had a meal in the one at Exford just a couple of weeks ago.

One use of stag in connection with men is "stag night" where a bridegroom
-to-be gets together with male friends for an evening close to the marriage.
I suspect that this might be the same usage on the west side of the pond?







From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Wed Jan 14 21:30:10 2009
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 21:30:10 -0000
Subject: Carol's questions for New Steve Was: Tempest in a teapot/cup/kettle
In-Reply-To: <gkljr8+i3v6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gkllh2+90ba@eGroups.com>

Geoff: 
> One use of stag in connection with men is "stag night" where a 
bridegroom
> -to-be gets together with male friends for an evening close to the 
marriage.
> I suspect that this might be the same usage on the west side of the 
pond?

Magpie:
Yup, stag night, stag party, to go stag... (and stag leap in ballet, 
but that's referencing something other than the male-ness!)

-m





From md at exit-reality.com  Wed Jan 14 22:52:40 2009
From: md at exit-reality.com (Cabal)
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 17:52:40 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Carol's questions for New Steve Was: Tempest in a teapot/cup/kettle
In-Reply-To: <gkljr8+i3v6@eGroups.com>
References: <007201c97648$dfa8e300$9efaa900$@com> <gkljr8+i3v6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00ab01c9769a$ce707f10$6b517d30$@com>



-----Original Message-----
From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
[mailto:HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Geoff Bannister
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 4:01 PM
To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Carol's questions for New Steve Was: Tempest
in a teapot/cup/kettle


Geoff:
Strictly speaking, that isn't accurate. At the time of the Norman Conquest, 
the general language of Britain was Anglo-Saxon. German and English are 
closely related languages. During the early years of the Normans, French 
was the official language and Anglo-Saxon was left in the hands of the 
yeomans and peasants and in the intervening period, they did interesting 
things like largely demolishing gender and annihilating most of the case 
structure and inflection, the combination of the two ending up by giving 
us possibly one of the most expressive languages in the world.

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

It is accurate, because you are speaking of a much latter period, after the
Anglos and Saxons arrived. But long, long before the Anglo/Saxon period the
inhabitant of the area where people that migrated from Germany. No matter
how you look at it, the Germans where there first, before the Anglo/Saxon,
before the Norman invasion and French rule. You are correct, except you and
I are not talking about the same part of history. 

I just spent an entire semester studding origins of the English Language,
it's pretty damn fresh in my mind -- it was also covered in several Brit-Lit
courses from a time ago.

md




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Wed Jan 14 23:18:55 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 23:18:55 -0000
Subject: Carol's questions for New Steve Was: Tempest in a teapot/cup/kettle
In-Reply-To: <00ab01c9769a$ce707f10$6b517d30$@com>
Message-ID: <gklrsv+eq3e@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Cabal" <md at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Geoff Bannister
> Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 4:01 PM
> To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Carol's questions for New Steve Was: Tempest
> in a teapot/cup/kettle
> 
> 
> Geoff:
> Strictly speaking, that isn't accurate. At the time of the Norman Conquest, 
> the general language of Britain was Anglo-Saxon. German and English are 
> closely related languages. During the early years of the Normans, French 
> was the official language and Anglo-Saxon was left in the hands of the 
> yeomans and peasants and in the intervening period, they did interesting 
> things like largely demolishing gender and annihilating most of the case 
> structure and inflection, the combination of the two ending up by giving 
> us possibly one of the most expressive languages in the world.
> 
> :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
> 
> It is accurate, because you are speaking of a much latter period, after the
> Anglos and Saxons arrived. But long, long before the Anglo/Saxon period the
> inhabitant of the area where people that migrated from Germany. No matter
> how you look at it, the Germans where there first, before the Anglo/Saxon,
> before the Norman invasion and French rule. You are correct, except you and
> I are not talking about the same part of history. 

Geoff:
You've just created a paradox because I said that strictly speaking, that wasn't 
accurate and you said it was but then said that I was correct.
:-)

I didn't say we were talking about the same period of history. I was 
pointing out that the expansion of the English vocabulary began its 
take-off in the mid-11th century after the Norman invasion at a time 
when the official language of England was Anglo-Saxon. Whether 
Anglo-Saxon had developed from Old High German or other sources 
at an earlier date is not germane to my comments.

md:
> I just spent an entire semester studding origins of the English Language,
> it's pretty damn fresh in my mind -- it was also covered in several Brit-Lit
> courses from a time ago.

Geoff:
That must have been a fascinating term's course. I considered going 
into linguistics instead of Maths when I left school but couldn't see 
it as the most rewarding career path.






From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Wed Jan 14 23:31:07 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 23:31:07 -0000
Subject: What should we do next?
In-Reply-To: <gkli93+pqpl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gklsjr+eq2m@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Sheryll Townsend" <s_ings at ...> wrote:
>
> The List Elves look in wonder at the gathering crowd.
> 
> Phlytie Elf: "I see some new faces!"
> Marvin Elf: "And lots of familiar ones, too."
> Corbie Elf: "Are they expecting a party?"
> Zaney Elf: "I think they just want to let us know tbeir ideas."
> Exmoor Elf: "Well, let's pass the nibblies and settle down to hear 
> what they think."
> 
> As you know from our post on the Main list, we're looking for some 
> feedback.What do we do next? Should we start over from the beginning 
> with new chapter discussions? Considering it'll take a long time if 
> we do it every couple weeks, how should we move it along? Instead of 
> one chapter at a time, should we lump two chapters together in a 
> summary, or even a larger number of chapters? Should we post them
> one at a time but each week, instead of every two weeks? Have two or 
> more members posting summaries each week?
> 
> Help yourself to the nibblies and drinks and settle in to tell us 
> what you'd prefer to do.
> 
> The List Elves

Geoff:
<looking thoughtful>
It depends on what you want to achieve in restarting discussions 
from the very beginning. Can we get something constructive out 
of this rather than just re-heating yesterday's leftovers?

I suppose for many of us, the earliest chapter discussions are 
ancient history. For example, I joined the Main group in July 2003 
just about the time OOTP came out and so discussion on the first 
four books were well interred in the archives by then.

If, on the other hand, discussion would look at how our perception 
of the early books has changed in the light of later revelation; how 
we may have been led up blind alleys either inadvertently or
deliberately (he says thinking of Mark Evans as an example!); how 
our interpretation of a character's actions might have changed as 
more is revealed, then yes, it could well be a worthwhile exercise. 

Once more unto the breach, dear friends?






From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 14 23:53:12 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 23:53:12 -0000
Subject: Carol's questions for New Steve Was: Tempest in a teapot/cup/kettle
In-Reply-To: <007c01c97674$00c368a0$024a39e0$@com>
Message-ID: <gkltt9+9rso@eGroups.com>

Cabal wrote:
> So I'll got tell the Head of my English Dept. and the Provost who
teaches linguistics that they are wrong?
> 
> England was settled by the Germanic tribes before the Anglos and
Saxons ever arrived -- they spoke German -- they couldn't have spoke
old Saxon first because they where there for generations before the
Saxons -- I have taken two courses in the last two years alone and
have three textbooks that tell the same story.
> 

Carol responds:
I don't mean to argue, but if your history books say that the Angles
(not Anglos) spoke German, they're mistaken. They spoke some form of
*Germanic.* The exact name given to the language they spoke probably
depends to some degree on the source you consult. One of my
dictionaries and my (admittedly dated but authoritative) edition of
Baugh and Cable's "History of the English Language" calls it
Anglo-Frisian. Other sources call it Old Saxon, a branch of Low
German. (German at that time was not a language but a language family
divided into Low German and High German.) I seem to recall (but don't
have on hand) sources that referred to the language spoken by the
three tribes as Low German, which may be the term that your textbooks
also use.

The Angles, Saxons, and Jutes *were* Germanic tribes, and it was the
non-Germanic Celts who preceded them.

>From the Random House College Dictionary:

"The tribes inhabiting Roman Britain were chiefly of Celtic or
pre-Celtic stock. <snip> In the fifth century A.D.,Britain was invaded
by Germanic tribes from the mainland, who moved into the vacuum
created by the withdrawal of the Roman legions. These tribes, of which
the best known were the Angles, the Saxons, and the Jutes, displaced
the earlier Celtic-speaking inhabitants and established Germanic [not
German] as the principal language of Britain. The majority of our
texts of the language that developed there came from the West Saxon
area, the dialect of which in time became the dominant one. The
Angles, however, were most numerous and gave their name to the
language that has since been called English (in OE englisc or
anglisc). The Latin name for the Angles was Angli, reflected in the
modern combining form Anglo- [as in Anglo-Saxon].

"The language spoken in Britain from the Germanic invasions of the 5th
century up to the 11th century is now usually called Old English,
though a learned coinage, Anglo-Saxon, is also in use."

Germanic, an Indo-European language, had three main branches, East
Germanic (Gothic), North Germanic (Old West Norse and Old East Norse,
which developed into the Scandinavian languages), and West Germanic,
which had two branches, Anglo-Frisian (which included Anglo-Saxon or
Old English) and German (which included High and Low German). Low
German included Old Saxon.

The source I'm looking at (a dictionary) shows Old English/Anglo-Saxon
as distinct from Old Saxon, but other sources say that Anglo-Saxon
developed from Old Saxon (which makes sense whether it's accurate or not).

In any case, what the three main Germanic tribes--Angles, Saxons, and
Jutes--spoke was a form of West Germanic. Their dialects merged into
what we now call either Old English or Anglo-Saxon.

Possibly you'd like to quote from one of your textbooks to present a
counter view, but I don't see how you can argue with the facts
presented in that first quoted paragraph.

Carol, who is not attacking your provost or the head of your
department in any way 




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 14 23:56:35 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 23:56:35 -0000
Subject: My Name
In-Reply-To: <gklba7+s5e7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gklu3j+76rc@eGroups.com>

Steve V. wrote:
>
> I know no one means any harm but would appreciate it if I were
refered> to as Steve V. instead of New Steve.
> 
> Thank You
> 
> Steve V.
>
Carol responds:

Hi, Steve V. We can't control the way the old thread titles appear in
Yahoo, but we can try to delete "New Steve" from our subject lines and
refrain from using it in our posts.

Carol, apologizing yet again for initiating the trend




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 15 00:55:01 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 00:55:01 -0000
Subject: History of English
In-Reply-To: <gklrsv+eq3e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gkm1h5+l08c@eGroups.com>

Geoff:
> > Strictly speaking, that isn't accurate. At the time of the Norman
Conquest, the general language of Britain was Anglo-Saxon. German and
English are closely related languages. During the early years of the
Normans, French was the official language and Anglo-Saxon was left in
the hands of the yeomans and peasants and in the intervening period,
they did interesting things like largely demolishing gender and
annihilating most of the case structure and inflection, the
combination of the two ending up by giving us possibly one of the most
expressive languages in the world.
> > 
Cabal:
> > It is accurate, because you are speaking of a much latter period,
after the Anglos and Saxons arrived. But long, long before the
Anglo/Saxon period the inhabitant of the area where people that
migrated from Germany. No matter how you look at it, the Germans where
there first, before the Anglo/Saxon, before the Norman invasion and
French rule. You are correct, except you and I are not talking about
the same part of history. 

Carol responds:

Once again, they're not the Anglos. That's a term used by Hispanic
Americans to refer to English-speaking (white) Americans.

That aside, here's a partial chronology that may help to clear up any
confusion as to "Germans" being in England before the Germanic tribes
arrived.

pre-600 A.D.	THE PRE-ENGLISH PERIOD <snip>
ca. 1000 B.C. <snip> Celtic peoples inhabit what is now Spain, France,
Germany and England.
55 B.C. Beginning of Roman raids on British Isles.
43 A.D.	Roman occupation of Britain. Roman colony of "Britannia"
established. Eventually, many Celtic Britons become Romanized. (Others
continually rebel).
200 B.C.-200 A.D. Germanic peoples move down from Scandinavia and
spread over Central Europe [not Britain] in successive waves. <snip>
Early 5th century. Roman Empire collapses. Romans pull out of Britain
and other colonies <snip> 
ca. 410 A.D. First Germanic tribes arrive in England. 
410-600	 Settlement of most of Britain by Germanic peoples (Angles,
Saxons, Jutes, some Frisians) speaking West Germanic dialects
descended from Proto-Germanic. <snip> Celtic peoples, most of whom are
Christianized, are pushed increasingly (despite occasional violent
uprisings) into the marginal areas of Britain: Ireland, Scotland,
Wales. Anglo-Saxons, originally sea-farers, settle down as farmers,
exploiting rich English farmland.
By 600 A.D., the Germanic speech of England comprises dialects of a
language distinct from the continental Germanic languages.
ca. 600-1100	THE OLD ENGLISH, OR ANGLO-SAXON PERIOD
600-800 Rise of three great kingdoms politically unifying large areas:
Northumbria, Mercia, Wessex. Supremacy passes from one kingdom to
another in that order.
ca. 600 Christianity introduced among Anglo-Saxons by St. Augustine,
missionary from Rome. Irish missionaries also spread Celtic form of
Christianity to mainland Britain.
793 First serious Viking incursions. <snip>
10th century Danes and English continue to mix peacefully, and
ultimately become indistinguishable. Many Scandinavian loanwords enter
the language; English even borrows pronouns like they, them, their.
<snip>
1066 October.  Harold [the Saxon] is defeated and killed at the battle
of Hastings.
December. William of Normandy crowned king of England in Westminster
Abbey on Christmas Day.
ca. 1100-1500 	THE MIDDLE ENGLISH PERIOD
1066-1075 William crushes uprisings of Anglo-Saxon earls and peasants
<snip>. Anglo-Saxon earls and freemen deprived of property; many
enslaved. William distributes property and titles to Normans (and some
English) who supported him. Many of the English hereditary titles of
nobility date from this period.
	English becomes the language of the lower classes (peasants and
slaves). Norman French becomes the language of the court and
propertied classes. The legal system is redrawn along Norman lines and
conducted in French. <snip> Authors write literature in French, not
English. For all practical purposes English is no longer a written
language. Bilingualism gradually becomes more common, especially among
those who deal with both upper and lower classes. Growth of London as
a commercial center draws many from the countryside who can fill this
socially intermediate role.
1204 The English kings lose the duchy of Normandy to French kings.
England is now the only home of the Norman English.
1205 First book in English appears since the conquest.
1258 First royal proclamation issued in English since the conquest.
ca. 1300 Increasing feeling on the part of even noblemen that they are
English, not French. Nobility begin to educate their children in
English. French is taught to children as a foreign language rather
than used as a medium of instruction.
1337 Start of the Hundred Years' War between England and France.
1362 English becomes official language of the law courts. More and
more authors are writing in English. 
ca. 1380 Chaucer writes the Canterbury tales in Middle English. the
language shows French influence in thousands of French borrowings. The
London dialect, for the first time, begins to be recognized as the
"Standard", or variety of English taken as the norm, for all England.
1474 William Caxton brings a printing press to England from Germany.
Publishes the first printed book in England. Beginning of the long
process of standardization of spelling.
1500-present	THE MODERN ENGLISH PERIOD
1500-1650 Early Modern English develops. The Great Vowel Shift
gradually takes place. There is a large influx of Latin and Greek
borrowings and neologisms.
1611 King James Bible published, which has influenced English writing
down to the present day. <snip the rest>



You can see the growth of English fairly clearly here if you assume
the influence of the languages on each other both in terms of loan
words and the erosion of word endings. We start with the Germanic
language spoken by the three tribes (four, if we count the Frisians),
which develops into Old English, the Saxon dialect being dominant. OE
acquires loan words from Latin and Celtic but not many and they have
no effect on the grammar and structure of the language. Later contact
with another Germanic language, the Old Norse spoken by the Vikings,
softens the inflections and results in many loan words adopted into
the language (which is still entirely Germanic). 

Then the unthinkable happens. Harold the Saxon is overthrown and
killed, and the Normans (originally a Germanic people but now speaking
a variety of French) take over England. Many of the English
aristocrats are killed. English goes underground but continues to
flourish. The loss of Normandy (no loss at all!) brings English to the
forefront. Bilingualism brings many (Norman) French words into English
and further erodes the inflections, virtually eliminating grammatical
gender except in pronouns. Chaucer's works made the London dialect
standard; the printing press helped to standardize spelling. The
Renaissance and eighteenth-century classicism brought in hundreds of
borrowings from classical languages.

>From there, of course, English continued to evolve and is still
evolving. Today, it's a lingua franca, the Latin or Koine Greek of our
day.

For anyone else fascinated by this topic, here's the URL for the site
whose chronology I've borrowed:

http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~kemmer/Words/chron.html

Carol, hoping that Cabal will consult his textbooks regarding "Anglos"






From vand195550 at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 15 01:36:01 2009
From: vand195550 at yahoo.com (Stephen Vandecasteele)
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 17:36:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: My Name
Message-ID: <319660.48865.qm@web59409.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>




--- On Wed, 1/14/09, Carol <justcarol67 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> From: Carol <justcarol67 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: My Name
> To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
> Date: Wednesday, January 14, 2009, 6:56 PM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>     
>             Steve V. wrote:
> 
> >
> 
> > I know no one means any harm but would appreciate it
> if I were
> 
> refered> to as Steve V. instead of New Steve.
> 
> > 
> 
> > Thank You
> 
> > 
> 
> > Steve V.
> 
> >
> 
> Carol responds:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi, Steve V. We can't control the way the old thread
> titles appear in
> 
> Yahoo, but we can try to delete "New Steve" from
> our subject lines and
> 
> refrain from using it in our posts.
> 
> 
> 
> Carol, apologizing yet again for initiating the trend
> 
Steve V Here,

No need to apologize, its a tempest in a tea pot.

Steve V. 


      




From sherriola at gmail.com  Thu Jan 15 01:51:54 2009
From: sherriola at gmail.com (Sherry Gomes)
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 17:51:54 -0800
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Carol's questions for  Steve V.
In-Reply-To: <gklecm+g2gv@eGroups.com>
References: <gkk4up+s260@eGroups.com> <gklecm+g2gv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000401c976b3$d87c0600$4001a8c0@Pensieve>

zanooda:

That may be :-). It just seems a little strange if you, for instance, call a
male fallow deer "a stag" :-). Fallow deer are kind of small and cute, and
they don't look "that" impressive or majestic, even with big antlers :-):


Sherry:

My dad used to hunt when I was a little girl.  I never paid much attention,
because I had been emotionally scarred by Bambi and hated that he shot poor
little deer ... but, I remember there was a definite distinction among him
and my uncle with "buck" or "stag", and it had to do with the size and the
antlers.

Sherry





From md at exit-reality.com  Thu Jan 15 03:16:38 2009
From: md at exit-reality.com (Cabal)
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 22:16:38 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Carol's questions for New Steve Was: Tempest in a teapot/cup/kettle
In-Reply-To: <gkltt9+9rso@eGroups.com>
References: <007c01c97674$00c368a0$024a39e0$@com> <gkltt9+9rso@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <008701c976bf$ae3ffcf0$0abff6d0$@com>



-----Original Message-----


Carol responds:
I don't mean to argue, but if your history books say that the Angles
(not Anglos) spoke German, they're mistaken. They spoke some form of
*Germanic.* 

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::;

I never said the Anglos or Saxon's spoke German. I'm saying that English
evolved from German, the first spoken language in Great Britain. That the
Anglo/Saxon and later the French influenced the language and it's
development. Old English (Beowolf) is an evolution from the language the
Germanic Tribes living there spoke, after the French occupation Old English
evolved into Middle English. Anyone who has ever spoken any form of English
in history is speaking a language that started as a form of German. That's
just the facts of it.

md




From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 15 05:06:49 2009
From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (happyjoeysmiley)
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 05:06:49 -0000
Subject: What should we do next?
In-Reply-To: <gklsjr+eq2m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gkmg99+rsa4@eGroups.com>

> The List Elves wrote:
> As you know from our post on the Main list, we're looking for some 
> feedback.What do we do next?  
[snip]

> Geoff:
> It depends on what you want to achieve in restarting discussions 
> from the very beginning. Can we get something constructive out 
> of this rather than just re-heating yesterday's leftovers?
> 
> I suppose for many of us, the earliest chapter discussions are 
> ancient history. For example, I joined the Main group in July 2003 
> just about the time OOTP came out and so discussion on the first 
> four books were well interred in the archives by then.
> 
> If, on the other hand, discussion would look at how our perception 
> of the early books has changed in the light of later revelation; 
how we may have been led up blind alleys either inadvertently or
> deliberately (he says thinking of Mark Evans as an example!); how 
> our interpretation of a character's actions might have changed as 
> more is revealed, then yes, it could well be a worthwhile exercise. 
 
Joey:
I think restarting chapter discussions at this juncture, with all 7 
books released and read, will inevitably involve discussions how our 
perceptions of the early books and all characters have changed in the 
light of later revelation. And, yes, this would be worth it. For 
example, Alla started some "HBP Chapter A - post-DH look" type of 
threads recently, which triggered lot of interesting discussions. At 
the same time, I feel starting all over again will not lead to 
boredom, even without the post-other-releases perspective. :) May be, 
if we try different posters, different questions and perspectives 
could come up. And, the group has grown and so, different views could 
come up too. :)

I think we can also consider personality analysis sans religious 
perspective (I think one such analysis with a religious perspective 
has already been done in the forum; I'm not sure). We could also 
consider relationship (all types, I mean - not only the romantic 
ones :-)) analysis.

Just my thoughts.




From kenadams705 at btinternet.com  Thu Jan 15 11:15:32 2009
From: kenadams705 at btinternet.com (KEN ADAMS)
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 11:15:32 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Carol's questions for  Steve V.
References: <gklecm+g2gv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <876533.97077.qm@web87015.mail.ird.yahoo.com>

The largest deer as far as i know is the moose (N Am) Elk (Europe). A male moose is definately a bull moose.
KEN




________________________________
From: zanooda2 <zanooda2 at yahoo.com>
To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, 14 January, 2009 7:28:22 PM
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Carol's questions for Steve V.


--- In HPFGU-OTChatter@ yahoogroups. com, "Geoff Bannister"
<gbannister10@ ...> wrote:

> I think this may be one of those UK/US linguistic things. 
> Locally, we certainly talk about fawns and I can't recall 
> hearing buck used very much at all.

zanooda:

That may be :-). It just seems a little strange if you, for instance,
call a male fallow deer "a stag" :-). Fallow deer are kind of small
and cute, and they don't look "that" impressive or majestic, even with
big antlers :-):

http://i156. photobucket. com/albums/ t32/FiberFantasi es/BlogPhotos/ BribingFallowDee r.jpg

Wikipedia also says that males and females of the largest deer (I
don't know whom they mean, elk, maybe?) are called like cattle - bulls
and cows :-).

P.S. A few weeks ago some crazy guy killed a white-tailed deer that
lived in a park where we used to go for walks ;-(. Park visitors
always loved that deer, he was very tame and all. His name was
"Mr.Buck", BTW ... ;-(.

 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From kenadams705 at btinternet.com  Thu Jan 15 16:08:59 2009
From: kenadams705 at btinternet.com (KEN ADAMS)
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 16:08:59 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Carol's questions for New Steve Was: Tempest in a teapot/cup/kettle
References: <007c01c97674$00c368a0$024a39e0$@com> <gkltt9+9rso@eGroups.com> <008701c976bf$ae3ffcf0$0abff6d0$@com>
Message-ID: <42221.37463.qm@web87003.mail.ird.yahoo.com>

Part of the problem here is that German and english are said to have evolved from an Indo-Germanic language. That doesn't necessarily mean it has anything to do with India or German. That's just the term that is applied, we don't actually know anything about Indo Germanic because it stopped being spoken so long ago.
Carol is quite correct that England was invaded by Angles, Saxons and Jutes, but not for some strange reason the Frisians who seem to have been the most warlike and adventurous of all. But these three tribes invaded different parts of "England" leading to further confusion. But then they seem to have welded together, until the coming of the Vikings. The Vikings were actually the same people whose ancestors had originally formed the Angles and Saxons out of the earlier southern migrations that Carol refers to. The Vikings were from Norway ( the norse) who mainly first attacked then settled northern Scotland and Ireland.?They were also from Denmark who were more active in eastern England. Before the battle of Hastings (actually a place called Battle several miles away) the Norse king Harald Hardrader had attacked the English Harold who defeated hardrader at the Battle of Stamford Bridge. Nothing to do with Chelsea FC,in the North of England. This defeat
 effectively ended Norse power and they became part of Denmark. Norway only became an independant country again in the last century.?
Here endeth the lesson. Hope this helps.?




________________________________
From: Cabal <md at exit-reality.com>
To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, 15 January, 2009 3:16:38 AM
Subject: RE: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Carol's questions for New Steve Was: Tempest in a teapot/cup/kettle




-----Original Message-----

Carol responds:
I don't mean to argue, but if your history books say that the Angles
(not Anglos) spoke German, they're mistaken. They spoke some form of
*Germanic.* 

:::::::::::: ::::::::: ::::::::: ;

I never said the Anglos or Saxon's spoke German. I'm saying that English
evolved from German, the first spoken language in Great Britain. That the
Anglo/Saxon and later the French influenced the language and it's
development. Old English (Beowolf) is an evolution from the language the
Germanic Tribes living there spoke, after the French occupation Old English
evolved into Middle English. Anyone who has ever spoken any form of English
in history is speaking a language that started as a form of German. That's
just the facts of it.

md

 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 15 16:42:26 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 16:42:26 -0000
Subject: The evolution of English
In-Reply-To: <008701c976bf$ae3ffcf0$0abff6d0$@com>
Message-ID: <gknp1i+p8e@eGroups.com>

Cabal: 
> I never said the Anglos or Saxon's spoke German. I'm saying that
English evolved from German, the first spoken language in Great
Britain. That the Anglo/Saxon and later the French influenced the
language and it's development. Old English (Beowolf) is an evolution
from the language the Germanic Tribes living there spoke, after the
French occupation Old English evolved into Middle English. Anyone who
has ever spoken any form of English in history is speaking a language
that started as a form of German. That's just the facts of it.

Carol responds:
Those are *not* the facts, as you would no doubt discover if you
consulted your textbooks.

Once more: The people after whom English is named were Angles, not
Anglos, and they (like the Saxons and Jutes) spoke a form of Germanic,
not German, which is the modern language now spoken in Germany, just
as English is the language now spoken in England (and many other places.

"German"--or rather Germanic-- was *not* the first language spoken in
Britain. Ignoring a few cave sites that date to Paleolithic times, it
was originally settled by Neolithic peoples whose language is lost. It
was settled by Brythonic and Goidelic Celts, who blended with the
original inhabitants. Then came the Romans, who occupied Britain. Many
of the Britonic Celts became Romanized and accepted Christianity, by
then the religion of the Roman Empire. The Goidelic Celts of what is
now Scotland and Ireland, and the Picts, who may or may not have been
Celtic, remained pagan and barbarian (or whatever the PC term is for
rejecting the Latin language and Roman civilization). Not until after
the Romans left (around 414 A.D.) did the Germanic peoples--Angles
(not Angles), Saxons, and Jutes) arrive, settling different parts of
England and establishing their own kingdoms. ("Anglo-" is a combining
form; it is not the name of the tribe. If your textbook says
otherwise, it is inaccurate, and its author has done you a great
disservice by passing on misinformation.)

These Germanic tribes spoke a West Germanic language (call it what you
will, but it was certainly not what we now call German any more than
it was what we now call English) that by 600 A.D. was distinct from
the Germanic spoken in continental Europe. We call the language that
developed after they settled in Britain Old English or Anglo-Saxon
(because the Angles and Saxons had merged into one people). After the
Norman French (the Normans were originally Vikings: "Norman" = "North
man") occupation, Old English lost its inflections and adopted many
Norman French words, evolving into Middle English.

We at least agree that Old English evolved into Middle English under
the influence of (Norman) French and, presumably, that Middle English
evolved into Modern English.

Carol, who has simplified the facts in this post, leaving out
influences such as Old Norse, the language of the Vikings, and the
different dialects spoken by the Germanic tribes




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 15 17:12:29 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 17:12:29 -0000
Subject: More linguistic confusion--deer, elk, and moose
In-Reply-To: <876533.97077.qm@web87015.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <gknqpt+q8rv@eGroups.com>

KEN ADAMS wrote:
>
> The largest deer as far as i know is the moose (N Am) Elk (Europe).
A male moose is definately a bull moose.

Carol responds:

Most people, though, don't think of moose (what Europeans call elk) as
deer even though they're a member of the deer family. They look less
like deer than American elk do. (Male elk are also called bulls in the
U.S.)

I started to mention American deer in another post but forgot to
complete my sentence. The only two varieties that I know of are mule
deer and white-tailed deer, which are smaller than the English red
deer but possibly larger than the fallow deer (I don't know; I'm
guessing). The males of both species are called bucks, the females
does, and the babies, regardless of sex, fawns. (Only the fawns have
spots, unlike the fallow deer.)

Carol, who just discovered through a bit of Googling that English red
deer and American elk are different subspecies of the same species,
Cervus elaphus, but American elk are larger and more brownish

http://www.suwanneeriverranch.com/reddeer.htm
 




From eggplant107 at hotmail.com  Thu Jan 15 17:28:25 2009
From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107)
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 17:28:25 -0000
Subject: What should we do next?
In-Reply-To: <gklsjr+eq2m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gknrnp+p4ka@eGroups.com>

Why not start a chapter discussion of The Half Blood Prince? The last
2 books are so tightly connected they're almost like one big book
anyway; and I know discussion of the movie is forbidden on the main
group but nevertheless the film is bound to increase interest in the
book. Come to think of it all 7 books are really one very large novel,
so after completing HBP we might want to go back to book 1.

I have one more modest proposal, now that no new books are going to be
coming out it and the number of posts is bound to decline it might be
wise to combine the movie group and the main group. I never quite
understood the reason for this segregation; the Cross-Pollenization
could lead to better discussions of both the books and the movies. 

 Eggplant






From kenadams705 at btinternet.com  Thu Jan 15 18:08:13 2009
From: kenadams705 at btinternet.com (KEN ADAMS)
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 18:08:13 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] More linguistic confusion--deer, elk, and moose
References: <gknqpt+q8rv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <331470.32097.qm@web87004.mail.ird.yahoo.com>



I agree entirely that the moose (Alces alces ) doesn't look like any other variety of deer, which is perhaps why its males are referred to as bulls rather than stags, which seem to belong only to the genus Cervus.
You sre quite right in pointing out that your two species of deer are about the size of the Fallow Deer although wrong in suggesting that Fallow Deer fawns lack spots. Although yr Elk and the English Red are conspecific, Scottish Reds have inerbred so extensively with the introduced Sika deer (Cervus nippon) that practically all Scottish reds are now hybrids. This is probably now occurring in England as well.
KEN

?

________________________________
From: Carol <justcarol67 at yahoo.com>
To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, 15 January, 2009 5:12:29 PM
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] More linguistic confusion--deer, elk, and moose


KEN ADAMS wrote:
>
> The largest deer as far as i know is the moose (N Am) Elk (Europe).
A male moose is definately a bull moose.

Carol responds:

Most people, though, don't think of moose (what Europeans call elk) as
deer even though they're a member of the deer family. They look less
like deer than American elk do. (Male elk are also called bulls in the
U.S.)

I started to mention American deer in another post but forgot to
complete my sentence. The only two varieties that I know of are mule
deer and white-tailed deer, which are smaller than the English red
deer but possibly larger than the fallow deer (I don't know; I'm
guessing). The males of both species are called bucks, the females
does, and the babies, regardless of sex, fawns. (Only the fawns have
spots, unlike the fallow deer.)

Carol, who just discovered through a bit of Googling that English red
deer and American elk are different subspecies of the same species,
Cervus elaphus, but American elk are larger and more brownish

http://www.suwannee riverranch. com/reddeer. htm


 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 15 18:23:06 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 18:23:06 -0000
Subject: History of English/England
In-Reply-To: <42221.37463.qm@web87003.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <gknuua+t0im@eGroups.com>

KEN ADAMS wrote:
<snip>
> Carol is quite correct that England was invaded by Angles, Saxons
and Jutes, but not for some strange reason the Frisians who seem to
have been the most warlike and adventurous of all. 

Carol responds:
My books say that a few Frisians invaded Britain, but not enough to ve
influential. They didn't form kingdoms there like the other three
tribes (Northumbria, Mercia, Wessex, East Anglia).

Ken:
> But these three tribes invaded different parts of "England" leading
to further confusion. 

Carol:
Right. Sussex, for example, was the South Saxon kingdom. Kent was
settled by the Jutes, the last Germanic tribe in Britain< IIRC, to be
converted to Christianity.

Ken:
But then they seem to have welded together, until the coming of the
Vikings. The Vikings were actually the same people whose ancestors had
originally formed the Angles and Saxons out of the earlier southern
migrations that Carol refers to. The Vikings were from Norway (the
norse) who mainly first attacked then settled northern Scotland and
Ireland.? They were also from Denmark who were more active in eastern
England. 

Carol:
Even after the Vikings began their invasions, the three tribes were
still the same people, what we now call Anglo-Saxons, speaking
different dialects and warring with each other. First Northumbria,
then Mercia, then Essex was the dominant kingdom. Then the (Danish)
Vikings invaded, killing or subjugating the kngs of all the kingdoms
except Wessex. They were eventually defeated by Alfred the Great and
his son Athelstan (who also conquered the northern Celts). Eventually,
the Vikings (the Danish variety) merged with the Anglo-Saxons. Then,
thanks to Aethelred the Unready, the Vikings conquered England.
Fortunately, Cnut (Canute) followed policies similar to those of
Alfred, and after his sons died without heirs, the crown went back to
the House of Wessex. Unfortunately, the new king, Edward the
Confessor, would have been better off becoming a monk. When he died
childless, his kinsman Harold Godwinson (Harold the Saxon) was
appointed king by the Witengamot (rather than the nearest relation,
Edgar Aetheling, who was a child).

But, yes, the three tribes were essentially the same people in that
they were all Germanic tribes and could partially understand each
others' languages. The Viking (Old Norse influence) is partly
responsible for the erosion of inflected word endings.

Ken:
Before the battle of Hastings (actually a place called Battle several
miles away) the Norse king Harald Hardrader had attacked the English
Harold who defeated hardrader at the Battle of Stamford Bridge. <snip>

Carol:
I think it's Harald Hardrada (for "hard reign").

Ken:
> This defeat effectively ended Norse power and they became part of
Denmark. Norway only became an independant country again in the last
century. <snip>

Carol:
Unfortunately for Harold the Saxon, his defeat of Harald Hardrada
weakened his forces, and without reinforcement from Mercia and
Northumbria, he was defeated and killed by William of Normandy, whose
claim to the throne I won't go into here. As a result of that victory,
the whole history of England and the English language changed
dramatically. The language, though relegated for a few centuries to
Anglo-Saxon peasants while the aristocrats spoke and wrote Norman
French, eventually became greatly enriched by the new loan words (and
lost almost all its inflections). Whether the loss of inflections and
the change from Saxon to Norman rulers was good or bad I leave to each
person to decide. Perhaps it was a felix culpa, a fortunate fall or
good bad thing (a bad thing with fortunate consequences like the death
of the Potters in the HP books).

Carol, whose sympathies lie with Harold as they lie with Richard III,
who suffered a similar fate more than four hundred years later






From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 15 18:31:46 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 18:31:46 -0000
Subject: What should we do next?
In-Reply-To: <gknrnp+p4ka@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gknvei+or0k@eGroups.com>

eggplant wrote:
<snip>
> 
> I have one more modest proposal, now that no new books are going to
be coming out it and the number of posts is bound to decline it might
be wise to combine the movie group and the main group. I never quite
understood the reason for this segregation; the Cross-Pollenization
could lead to better discussions of both the books and the movies. 

Carol responds:

I'm not so sure that's a good idea. There's lots of cross-talk (Movies
vs. books) on the Movie list already. I'd rather keep the focus of the
main group on the books, the canon established by JKR herself, rather
than their offshoot, the films, in which characters, events, and
dialogue are eliminated or altered.

We do need some sort of new discussion to bring new life to the main
group, but I don't think that combining groups is the answer.

Carol, who has a modest proposal of her own but is posting it to the
main group




From vand195550 at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 15 18:32:26 2009
From: vand195550 at yahoo.com (Stephen Vandecasteele)
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 10:32:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Carol's questions for  Steve V.
Message-ID: <355005.25078.qm@web59412.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>




--- On Thu, 1/15/09, KEN ADAMS <kenadams705 at btinternet.com> wrote:

> From: KEN ADAMS <kenadams705 at btinternet.com>
> Subject: Re: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Carol's questions for  Steve V.
> To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
> Date: Thursday, January 15, 2009, 6:15 AM

Steve V. now responds,

I agree Ken the moose is the largest found in North America.


      




From vand195550 at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 15 18:40:30 2009
From: vand195550 at yahoo.com (steve)
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 18:40:30 -0000
Subject: December Boys
Message-ID: <gknvuu+d9tq@eGroups.com>

Daniel Radcliff stars in this 2007 coming of age film. Radcliff best 
known for his portrayal of Harry Potter gives a stellar performance as 
Maps. Four boys seeking to be adopted, while this film has shades of 
Potter our Harry smokes ciggerates, has sex, and breaks every other 
rule you can think of. 

Steve V.




From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 15 19:33:00 2009
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 19:33:00 -0000
Subject: More linguistic confusion--deer, elk, and moose
In-Reply-To: <gknqpt+q8rv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gko31c+aq58@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:

> Carol, who just discovered through a bit of Googling that English red
> deer and American elk are different subspecies of the same species,
> Cervus elaphus, but American elk are larger and more brownish
 
> http://www.suwanneeriverranch.com/reddeer.htm


zanooda:

This is an interesting information. Until now I though for some reason
that "elk" was the same thing as "moose" - the same animal who just
happened to have two different names, LOL! I can see now that elk are
closer to red deer than to any moose :-). To bring this topic back to
Patronuses :-), I get it from the discussion that James transformed
into a red deer stag, right? 

BTW, Geoff, I watched PoA yesterday (just the second part, because I
can't have another look at those horrible heads hanging everywhere
:-)), and you were right. If you look very attentively, you can notice
the stag's head with antlers silhouetted against the white light that
comes out of back-in time Harry's wand. 

Still, it's not the way it should be: the stag should charge at the
dementors and chase them away, and we must be able to see it clearly
:-). That would have been an awesome scene, and I hope they'll finally
show us Harry's Patronus in DH - he casts it rather often there :-).


zanooda, who just remembered that "red deer" is called "noble deer" in
Russian... 






From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 15 20:19:42 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 20:19:42 -0000
Subject: More linguistic confusion--deer, elk, and moose
In-Reply-To: <331470.32097.qm@web87004.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <gko5ov+7od5@eGroups.com>

Carol earlier:

(Only the fawns have spots, unlike the fallow deer.)

Ken responded:
> <snip> You sre quite right in pointing out that your two species of
deer are about the size of the Fallow Deer although wrong in
suggesting that Fallow Deer fawns lack spots. <snip> 

Carol responds:

Just to clarify, I didn't mean that the fallow deer fawns lack spots.
I meant that mule deer and white tails have spots only as fawns,
unlike the fallow deer, which also have spots as adults in spring (or
is it summer?)--as we can see from the illustration I linked to
earlier and the photo that someone else, I think Potioncat, linked to.

Carol, conceding that she should have worded the little aside more clearly




From s_ings at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 15 23:10:34 2009
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 15:10:34 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Happy Birthday, Heidi!
Message-ID: <628580.77549.qm@web63403.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

*clears up the dirty dishes from yesterday's party, straightens the decorations and adds some glittery confetti, plumps the cushions on the comfy chairs and sweeps the crumbs under the carpet*

What? You saw that? Oooooops. <vbg>

Time to break out more food and drink, as there's another party to get started. Help yourself to snacks and don't be shy about taking a turn on the dance floor.

Today's birthday honouree has been around the HPFGU lists as long as I have, give or take a month or two, right Heidi? Birthday owls can be sent care of this list or directly to Heidi at: heidi8 at gmail.com

We've got a special treat in terms of cake - molten chocolate cake! Careful, that inner gooey filling can be very hot. :)

Heidi, I hope your day has been magical, filled with Lush goodness and everything pink. <bg>

Happy Birthday, Heidi!

Sheryll the Birthday Elf


      __________________________________________________________________
Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! 

http://www.flickr.com/gift/



From willsonkmom at msn.com  Fri Jan 16 01:05:43 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 01:05:43 -0000
Subject: What should we do next?
In-Reply-To: <gkli93+pqpl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gkomh7+ne6l@eGroups.com>


>
> The List Elves look in wonder at the gathering crowd.

> 
> Help yourself to the nibblies and drinks and settle in to tell us 
> what you'd prefer to do.
> 

Potioncat:
It would be so much fun to take another look at the books having the 
20/20 vision of hindsight. (not to be confused with deer or elk)

But you're right at a chapter a week, it will take years...even more 
than years! Yet, I can't imagine we'd need the same 10-12 questions 
per chapter that we did the first time around, or the same summary 
depth. I like both Geoff's and Carol's comments about bringing 
something new from the books.

Just looking at SS/PS, there are 17 chapters. If we divided it into 4 
sections and discussed each section over 2 weeks, that would take 2 
months. I'm not sure how much longer the other books are, or how well 
they break. At around 2 months per book, we're still talking over a 
year to do this. Hey, wait, did I say over a year. Maybe that should 
be only a year. I don't know. Do we want to linger or rush?

But I'm not just thinking of time. If the books are sort of broken 
into segments, where several chapters go together along a theme or 
action, it might make the discussion flow better.


The first 5 chapters of SS/PS cover the pre-Hogwarts period for 
Harry. Would any one poster want to tackle that much material in one 
go, or would it be better to do 2 chapters every week? With an odd, 
or extra chapter somewhere along the line. I don't think I'd mind 
working up several chapters in SS/PS.  We'd want enough lead time to 
give volunteers time to read and summarize. 


Thank you List Elves, for organizing another go!









From stevejjen at earthlink.net  Fri Jan 16 01:54:42 2009
From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese)
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 01:54:42 -0000
Subject: Happy Birthday, Mike!
In-Reply-To: <794983.72677.qm@web63402.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <gkopd2+fn00@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Sheryll Townsend <s_ings at ...> 
wrote:

> Today's birthday honouree is Mike, our very own Phlytie Elf! Birthday 
wishes can be sent care of this list or directly to Mike at: 
mcrudele78 at ...
> 
> *disappears suddenly and reappears bearing a towering, if slightly 
crooked, cake*


Jen: Aw, missed out on the cake.  Happy one-day-late Birthday, Mike!  
Hope it was a good one. :)  

Ooh, Heidi has cake, molten *chocolate* cake....Happy Birthday, Heidi!




From tonks_op at yahoo.com  Fri Jan 16 03:45:11 2009
From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks)
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 03:45:11 -0000
Subject: Looking for suggestions - in these economic times.
Message-ID: <gkovs7+9vlq@eGroups.com>

lol. I was going to start out saying that business was slow in the 
Auror department now that the Dark Lord is dead.. and then I remembered 
that I am too.

Well anyway...  the real me is getting rather desperate as are many 
others in this economy. I usually sell stuff.. not my body, of course.. 
and I would have to pay them for that... I am trying to think of what I 
can do to make money.. you know.. like to pay the rent, that sort of 
thing. I have a couple of ideas for long term, but not short term.

Anyone have a ideas how to make a quick buck??  I have something up at 
e-bay. And a part time job. I was thinking that all I need is to find 
1000 people with a dollar...  Anyone what to help me think out of the 
box?  Thanks.

Tonks_op




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Fri Jan 16 04:18:15 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 04:18:15 -0000
Subject: Happy Birthday, Mike!
In-Reply-To: <gkopd2+fn00@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gkp1q7+6oc1@eGroups.com>

> Jen: Aw, missed out on the cake.  Happy one-day-late Birthday, Mike!  
> Hope it was a good one. :)  

Alla:

Dearest Mike, Happy one-day-late Birthday from me too. Health is what I 
wish for you first and foremost  and everything else you wish for 
yourself will come!


> 
> Ooh, Heidi has cake, molten *chocolate* cake....Happy Birthday, Heidi!
>

Alla:

Happy birthday and all the best!




From vand195550 at yahoo.com  Fri Jan 16 04:44:46 2009
From: vand195550 at yahoo.com (steve)
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 04:44:46 -0000
Subject: Offering Suggestions
Message-ID: <gkp3bu+qq11@eGroups.com>

Lets see here, all seven books are out, you have run this English 101 
into the ground, you've discussed the moose versus the doe. A good 
suggestion would seem to be discussing each major charactor.

Steve V.




From kempermentor at yahoo.com  Fri Jan 16 06:18:25 2009
From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kempermentor)
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 06:18:25 -0000
Subject: Offering Suggestions
In-Reply-To: <gkp3bu+qq11@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gkp8rh+fl7j@eGroups.com>

> steve v:
> Lets see here, all seven books are out, you have run this English 101 
> into the ground, you've discussed the moose versus the doe. A good 
> suggestion would seem to be discussing each major charactor.


Kemper now:
Then it wouldn't be off topic.

Kemper




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Fri Jan 16 07:43:09 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 07:43:09 -0000
Subject: Offering Suggestions
In-Reply-To: <gkp3bu+qq11@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gkpdqd+mcc6@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "steve" <vand195550 at ...> wrote:
>
> Lets see here, all seven books are out, you have run this English 101 
> into the ground, you've discussed the moose versus the doe. A good 
> suggestion would seem to be discussing each major charactor.
> 
> Steve V.

Geoff:
You're not suggesting that the discussion is stag-nating?
:-))






From kenadams705 at btinternet.com  Fri Jan 16 12:20:52 2009
From: kenadams705 at btinternet.com (KEN ADAMS)
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 12:20:52 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: More linguistic confusion--deer, elk, and moose
References: <gko5ov+7od5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <6533.39616.qm@web87012.mail.ird.yahoo.com>

Yes but the spots fallow deer have as fawns have a completely different pattern to those they have as adults and resemble much more clearly those of your two species.
KEN




________________________________
From: Carol <justcarol67 at yahoo.com>
To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, 15 January, 2009 8:19:42 PM
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: More linguistic confusion--deer, elk, and moose


Carol earlier:

(Only the fawns have spots, unlike the fallow deer.)

Ken responded:
> <snip> You sre quite right in pointing out that your two species of
deer are about the size of the Fallow Deer although wrong in
suggesting that Fallow Deer fawns lack spots. <snip> 

Carol responds:

Just to clarify, I didn't mean that the fallow deer fawns lack spots.
I meant that mule deer and white tails have spots only as fawns,
unlike the fallow deer, which also have spots as adults in spring (or
is it summer?)--as we can see from the illustration I linked to
earlier and the photo that someone else, I think Potioncat, linked to.

Carol, conceding that she should have worded the little aside more clearly

 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Fri Jan 16 13:40:19 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 13:40:19 -0000
Subject: Offering Suggestions
In-Reply-To: <gkpdqd+mcc6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gkq2o3+gebc@eGroups.com>

 
> Geoff:
> You're not suggesting that the discussion is stag-nating?
> :-))
>

Potioncat:
Couldn't be! The English language is a topic that is deer to our harts.
;-)  




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Fri Jan 16 13:55:07 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 13:55:07 -0000
Subject: Offering Suggestions
In-Reply-To: <gkp3bu+qq11@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gkq3jr+sd7d@eGroups.com>

Steve Van wrote:
snip
 A good suggestion would seem to be discussing each major charactor.
> 

Potioncat:

Good idea! 

We are known at this general board for being nit-pickers---and that's 
what our friends call us. As Kemper pointed out, character discussions 
would be on-topic. So let's run the discussion at the movie site. I'm 
suggesting that because I know you are a movie fan. 

So, Steve Van, could you get us started at the movie site?

As an aside, I'm voting with another poster for Van rather than V. Only 
because V makes me think "Steve the fifth." Lexicon Steve would be 
Steve the first and Blue Wizard Steve would be "Steve the Second" but I 
don't think we've had a Steve III or IV.

I don't blame you for not wanting to be new Steve. My mother in law 
used to talk about her dentists. Eddie (who had retired) and his son 
Young Eddie. Young Eddie's son was known as Little Eddie. Over the 
course of 3 or 4 years I would hear about Eddie, Young Eddie and Little 
Eddie. Then one day Mom announced she had to look for a new dentist. 
Young Eddie had decided to retire. "How old is he?" I asked. "Oh, 65, 
67. I don't know."






From eggplant107 at hotmail.com  Fri Jan 16 17:07:37 2009
From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107)
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 17:07:37 -0000
Subject: What should we do next?
In-Reply-To: <gknvei+or0k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gkqesp+njmh@eGroups.com>

 "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:

> I'd rather keep the focus of the
> main group on the books, the canon 
> established by JKR herself, rather
> than their offshoot, the films

I doubt the focus of the main group will ever be on the films, but I
don't see the need to treat them like a crazy uncle you keep locked up
in the cellar. Like it or not for virtually all new readers of
the series their mental images of the scenes in the books will be
influenced by the movies. There is just no point in pretending
that a certain invention made in the late part of the nineteenth 
century doesn't exist.

In the early days when the book series was far from complete and
most posts were some variation of "What will happen next?" it
might have made sense to have two separate lists, but that ship
has sailed. At least that's what I think. 
 
> There's lots of cross-talk (Movies vs. books)
> on the Movie list already.

I never understood that either, if you can talk about the books on the
movie list why can't you talk about the movies on the book list? There
is such a thing as too much specialization, and after all, there are
some things (not many but a few) where the movies
actually did it better.

 Eggplant





From wildirishrose at fiber.net  Fri Jan 16 18:39:42 2009
From: wildirishrose at fiber.net (wildirishrose01us)
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 18:39:42 -0000
Subject: What should we do next?
In-Reply-To: <gkomh7+ne6l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gkqk9e+npr3@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at ...> 
wrote:
>
> 
> >
> > The List Elves look in wonder at the gathering crowd.
> 
> > 
> > Help yourself to the nibblies and drinks and settle in to tell us 
> > what you'd prefer to do.
> > 
> 
> Potioncat:
> It would be so much fun to take another look at the books having 
the 
> 20/20 vision of hindsight. (not to be confused with deer or elk)
> 
> But you're right at a chapter a week, it will take years...even 
more 
> than years! Yet, I can't imagine we'd need the same 10-12 questions 
> per chapter that we did the first time around, or the same summary 
> depth. I like both Geoff's and Carol's comments about bringing 
> something new from the books.
> 
> Just looking at SS/PS, there are 17 chapters. If we divided it into 
4 
> sections and discussed each section over 2 weeks, that would take 2 
> months. I'm not sure how much longer the other books are, or how 
well 
> they break. At around 2 months per book, we're still talking over a 
> year to do this. Hey, wait, did I say over a year. Maybe that 
should 
> be only a year. I don't know. Do we want to linger or rush?
> 
> But I'm not just thinking of time. If the books are sort of broken 
> into segments, where several chapters go together along a theme or 
> action, it might make the discussion flow better.
> 
> 
> The first 5 chapters of SS/PS cover the pre-Hogwarts period for 
> Harry. Would any one poster want to tackle that much material in 
one 
> go, or would it be better to do 2 chapters every week? With an odd, 
> or extra chapter somewhere along the line. I don't think I'd mind 
> working up several chapters in SS/PS.  We'd want enough lead time 
to 
> give volunteers time to read and summarize. 
> 
> 
> Thank you List Elves, for organizing another go!

Marianne:

I've been cooped up in training regarding my work for the last few 
days, and didn't have time to download my e-mail until today.  When I 
read the main list it was quick  I gave my opinion before I should 
have.  Sorry for the same post, more or less, from the main list.  

Whatever the list members decide would be fine with me.  I'd love to 
see the discussions start over again from the first book on.  But, 
like I said on the HPForGrownups, I joined the list halfway through 
DH so I missed a lot of discussions and like to read more.

Marianne





From vand195550 at yahoo.com  Fri Jan 16 18:45:38 2009
From: vand195550 at yahoo.com (Stephen Vandecasteele)
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 10:45:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Offering Suggestions
Message-ID: <20338.89455.qm@web59410.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>





--- On Fri, 1/16/09, potioncat <willsonkmom at msn.com> wrote:

> From: potioncat <willsonkmom at msn.com>
> Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Offering Suggestions
> To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
> Date: Friday, January 16, 2009, 8:55 AM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>     
>             Steve Van wrote:
> 
> snip
> 
>  A good suggestion would seem to be discussing each major
> charactor.
> 
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> Potioncat:
> 
> 
> 
> Good idea! 
> 
> 
> 
> We are known at this general board for being nit-pickers-
> --and that's 
> 
> what our friends call us. As Kemper pointed out, character
> discussions 
> 
> would be on-topic. So let's run the discussion at the
> movie site. I'm 
> 
> suggesting that because I know you are a movie fan. 
> 
> 
> 
> So, Steve Van, could you get us started at the movie site?
> 
Steve Van

I will do that sometime today.


      




From n2fgc at arrl.net  Fri Jan 16 19:44:51 2009
From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force)
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 14:44:51 -0500
Subject: Movies (was re: What should we do next?)
In-Reply-To: <gkqesp+njmh@eGroups.com>
References: <gknvei+or0k@eGroups.com> <gkqesp+njmh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <192EC327115E41BC93C48798CCB59B2C@musiclee>

[Eggplant]:
| and after all, there are
| some things (not many but a few) where the movies
| actually did it better.

[Lee gasps in horror!]
No way!  Guess I'm gonna have to watch all five movies again to see if I can
even partially agree. :-)  I still take great issue with the fact that
Peeves, an oh-so-important being, has been totally deleted from the movies.

Cheers,

Lee




From a_svirn at yahoo.com  Fri Jan 16 19:50:08 2009
From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn)
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 19:50:08 -0000
Subject: History of English/England
In-Reply-To: <gknuua+t0im@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gkqodg+gef9@eGroups.com>

> Carol, whose sympathies lie with Harold as they lie with Richard III,
> who suffered a similar fate more than four hundred years later
>

So what is your take on Babbity-Rabbity association with Henry VI? Was 
she a poor misguided creature or did she work secretly for the Yorkists 
deliberately providing the poor guy with spectacularly bad advice? (Of 
course, she might have worked secretly for the French, just as well. A 
triple-crosser?) 
a_svirn.




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Fri Jan 16 21:19:43 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 21:19:43 -0000
Subject: Movies (was re: What should we do next?)
In-Reply-To: <192EC327115E41BC93C48798CCB59B2C@musiclee>
Message-ID: <gkqtlf+vc0d@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Lee Storm \(God Is The Healing Force" 
<n2fgc at ...> wrote:
>
> [Eggplant]:
> | and after all, there are
> | some things (not many but a few) where the movies
> | actually did it better.
> 
> [Lee gasps in horror!]
> No way!  Guess I'm gonna have to watch all five movies again to see if I can
> even partially agree. :-)  I still take great issue with the fact that
> Peeves, an oh-so-important being, has been totally deleted from the movies.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Lee

Geoff:
Lee, there is no need to get peeved about that.

I'm sure he went off and geisted his polter somewhere else.
:-|






From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Fri Jan 16 21:22:44 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 21:22:44 -0000
Subject: Offering Suggestions
In-Reply-To: <gkq2o3+gebc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gkqtr4+l09c@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at ...> wrote:
>
>  
> > Geoff:
> > You're not suggesting that the discussion is stag-nating?
> > :-))
> >
> 
> Potioncat:
> Couldn't be! The English language is a topic that is deer to our harts.
> ;-)

Geoff:
Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

I think we ought to let this field of humour lie fallow for a while.
:-)




From n2fgc at arrl.net  Fri Jan 16 22:13:42 2009
From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force)
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 17:13:42 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Offering Suggestions
In-Reply-To: <gkqtr4+l09c@eGroups.com>
References: <gkq2o3+gebc@eGroups.com> <gkqtr4+l09c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <C34F782E99EC463E94CDA8FB3C6E3DF8@musiclee>

| > > Geoff:
| > > You're not suggesting that the discussion is stag-nating?
| > > :-))
| > >
| > 
| > Potioncat:
| > Couldn't be! The English language is a topic that is deer 
| to our harts.
| > ;-)
| 
| Geoff:
| Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
| 
| I think we ought to let this field of humour lie fallow for a while.

[Lee]:
Aaaw...just when I was starting to take it to hart.  Well, guess I'll just
have to buck up and wait for the next pun-ishment.

Lee :-)




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Fri Jan 16 23:03:09 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 23:03:09 -0000
Subject: Offering Suggestions
In-Reply-To: <C34F782E99EC463E94CDA8FB3C6E3DF8@musiclee>
Message-ID: <gkr3nd+bhfp@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Lee Storm \(God Is The Healing Force" 
<n2fgc at ...> wrote:
>
> | > > Geoff:
> | > > You're not suggesting that the discussion is stag-nating?
> | > > :-))
> | > >
> | > 
> | > Potioncat:
> | > Couldn't be! The English language is a topic that is deer 
> | to our harts.
> | > ;-)
> | 
> | Geoff:
> | Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
> | 
> | I think we ought to let this field of humour lie fallow for a while.
> 
> [Lee]:
> Aaaw...just when I was starting to take it to hart.  Well, guess I'll just
> have to buck up and wait for the next pun-ishment.
> 
> Lee :-)

Yes, well if you do,  just keep a careful eye on where the buck stops.
:-(






From n2fgc at arrl.net  Sat Jan 17 01:47:09 2009
From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force)
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 20:47:09 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Offering Suggestions
In-Reply-To: <gkr3nd+bhfp@eGroups.com>
References: <C34F782E99EC463E94CDA8FB3C6E3DF8@musiclee> <gkr3nd+bhfp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <3EDE007027F54FE5BB347554EAB73995@musiclee>

| > | Geoff:
| > | Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
| > | 
| > | I think we ought to let this field of humour lie fallow 
| for a while.
| > 
| > [Lee]:
| > Aaaw...just when I was starting to take it to hart.  Well, 
| guess I'll just
| > have to buck up and wait for the next pun-ishment.
| > 

[Geoff]:
| Yes, well if you do,  just keep a careful eye on where the buck stops.

[Lee]:
Guess I'll have to rack up a few more bucks to get enough doe before I can
go eat my chocolate moose, huh?  I really fawn over that stuff. :-)

Lee :-)




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Sat Jan 17 07:34:28 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 07:34:28 -0000
Subject: Offering Suggestions
In-Reply-To: <3EDE007027F54FE5BB347554EAB73995@musiclee>
Message-ID: <gks1m4+1iq9@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Lee Storm \(God Is The Healing Force" 
<n2fgc at ...> wrote:
>
> | > | Geoff:
> | > | Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
> | > | 
> | > | I think we ought to let this field of humour lie fallow 
> | for a while.
> | > 
> | > [Lee]:
> | > Aaaw...just when I was starting to take it to hart.  Well, 
> | guess I'll just
> | > have to buck up and wait for the next pun-ishment.
> | > 
> 
> [Geoff]:
> | Yes, well if you do,  just keep a careful eye on where the buck stops.
> 
> [Lee]:
> Guess I'll have to rack up a few more bucks to get enough doe before I can
> go eat my chocolate moose, huh?  I really fawn over that stuff. :-)
> 
> Lee :-)

Geoff:
If we go out in the boat today, would you like to roe, deer?
:-)






From vand195550 at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 17 11:19:57 2009
From: vand195550 at yahoo.com (Stephen Vandecasteele)
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 03:19:57 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Offering Suggestions
Message-ID: <754285.68076.qm@web59404.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>





--- On Sat, 1/17/09, Geoff Bannister <gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk> wrote:

> From: Geoff Bannister <gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk>
> Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Offering Suggestions
> To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
> Date: Saturday, January 17, 2009, 2:34 AM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>     
>             --- In HPFGU-OTChatter@
> yahoogroups. com, "Lee Storm \(God Is The
> Healing Force" 
> 
> <n2fgc at ...> wrote:
> 
> >
> 
> > | > | Geoff:
> 
> > | > | Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
> 
> > | > | 
> 
> > | > | I think we ought to let this field of humour
> lie fallow 
> 
> > | for a while.
> 
> > | > 
> 
> > | > [Lee]:
> 
> > | > Aaaw...just when I was starting to take it to
> hart.  Well, 
> 
> > | guess I'll just
> 
> > | > have to buck up and wait for the next
> pun-ishment.
> 
> > | > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > [Geoff]:
> 
> > | Yes, well if you do,  just keep a careful eye on
> where the buck stops.
> 
> > 
> 
> > [Lee]:
> 
> > Guess I'll have to rack up a few more bucks to get
> enough doe before I can
> 
> > go eat my chocolate moose, huh?  I really fawn over
> that stuff. :-)
> 
> > 
> 
> > Lee :-)
> 
> 
> 
> Geoff:
> 
> If we go out in the boat today, would you like to roe,
> deer?
> 
> :-)

Steve Van now,

As a published author allow me to critique what you are writing here, scrap it and start over. I don't care how many English Teachers that are on the list post and style makes no sense.

Steve having nothing better to do at the moment.


      




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Sat Jan 17 14:16:39 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 14:16:39 -0000
Subject: Offering Suggestions
In-Reply-To: <754285.68076.qm@web59404.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <gksp87+d7pk@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Stephen Vandecasteele <vand195550 at ...> 
wrote:
 
> --- On Sat, 1/17/09, Geoff Bannister <gbannister10 at ...> wrote:

Geoff:
> Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

> I think we ought to let this field of humour lie fallow 
> for a while.

[Lee]:
> Aaaw...just when I was starting to take it to hart.  Well, 
> guess I'll just have to buck up and wait for the next
> pun-ishment.

[Geoff]:
> Yes, well if you do,  just keep a careful eye on
> where the buck stops.

[Lee]:
> Guess I'll have to rack up a few more bucks to get
> enough doe before I can go eat my chocolate moose, 
> huh?  I really fawn over that stuff. :-)

Geoff:
> If we go out in the boat today, would you like to roe,
> deer
> :-)
 
Steve Van:
> As a published author allow me to critique what you 
> are writing here, scrap it and start over. I don't care how 
> many English Teachers that are on the list post and style 
> makes no sense.
 
> Steve having nothing better to do at the moment.

Geoff:
Erm, are you being serious? Because, if so,  you are missing 
the point that Lee and I are indulging in a battle of puns 
based on our "deer" vocabulary.

The whole thread is supposed to be funny.
:-)




From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Sat Jan 17 16:23:07 2009
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 16:23:07 -0000
Subject: Offering Suggestions
In-Reply-To: <gksp87+d7pk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gkt0lb+g95e@eGroups.com>

> Geoff:
> Erm, are you being serious? Because, if so,  you are missing 
> the point that Lee and I are indulging in a battle of puns 
> based on our "deer" vocabulary.
> 
> The whole thread is supposed to be funny.
> :-)

Magpie:
Also, if you are serious, it's wise to be careful about throwing 
around "published author" (or any other job) as proof of authority.
 
-m (also a published author, and there are probably more)




From stevejjen at earthlink.net  Sat Jan 17 16:37:36 2009
From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese)
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 16:37:36 -0000
Subject: What should we do next?
In-Reply-To: <gkqesp+njmh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gkt1gg+qs89@eGroups.com>

Eggplant:
> I doubt the focus of the main group will ever be on the films, but I
> don't see the need to treat them like a crazy uncle you keep locked up
> in the cellar. Like it or not for virtually all new readers of
> the series their mental images of the scenes in the books will be
> influenced by the movies. There is just no point in pretending
> that a certain invention made in the late part of the nineteenth 
> century doesn't exist.
> 
> In the early days when the book series was far from complete and
> most posts were some variation of "What will happen next?" it
> might have made sense to have two separate lists, but that ship
> has sailed. At least that's what I think. 


Jen: I like this idea.  It's hard to separate the two when you want to 
talk comparison/contrast.  Plus there can be casual talk on OTC for the 
fun stuff, like who was casted, 'can you believe they cut this out?!' 
etc.  

We could use 'Movie' in the header on main; isn't that how it was 
handled prior to a separate list?  Eggplant has a point that everything 
is starting to blend together when it comes to talking about HP because 
there's not all the theorizing.  I picture the lists collapsing down as 
time goes by, more like when hpfgu started.  It's fun to read the back 
posts when everything was mixed up.  I'm sure dividing the lists 
ordered the chaos when there were thousands of posts every month.  
Chaos can be fun though, yes?





From vand195550 at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 17 17:37:57 2009
From: vand195550 at yahoo.com (Stephen Vandecasteele)
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 09:37:57 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: What should we do next?
Message-ID: <396485.44349.qm@web59402.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>





--- On Sat, 1/17/09, Jen Reese <stevejjen at earthlink.net> wrote:

> From: Jen Reese <stevejjen at earthlink.net>
> Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: What should we do next?
> To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
> Date: Saturday, January 17, 2009, 11:37 AM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>     
>             Eggplant:
> 
> > I doubt the focus of the main group will ever be on
> the films, but I
> 
> > don't see the need to treat them like a crazy
> uncle you keep locked up
> 
> > in the cellar. Like it or not for virtually all new
> readers of
> 
> > the series their mental images of the scenes in the
> books will be
> 
> > influenced by the movies. There is just no point in
> pretending
> 
> > that a certain invention made in the late part of the
> nineteenth 
> 
> > century doesn't exist.
> 
> > 
> 
> > In the early days when the book series was far from
> complete and
> 
> > most posts were some variation of "What will
> happen next?" it
> 
> > might have made sense to have two separate lists, but
> that ship
> 
> > has sailed. At least that's what I think. 
> 
> 
> 
> Jen: I like this idea.  It's hard to separate the two
> when you want to 
> 
> talk comparison/contrast .  Plus there can be casual talk
> on OTC for the 
> 
> fun stuff, like who was casted, 'can you believe they
> cut this out?!' 
> 
> etc.  
> 
> 
> 
> We could use 'Movie' in the header on main;
> isn't that how it was 
> 
> handled prior to a separate list?  Eggplant has a point
> that everything 
> 
> is starting to blend together when it comes to talking
> about HP because 
> 
> there's not all the theorizing.  I picture the lists
> collapsing down as 
> 
> time goes by, more like when hpfgu started.  It's fun
> to read the back 
> 
> posts when everything was mixed up.  I'm sure dividing
> the lists 
> 
> ordered the chaos when there were thousands of posts every
> month.  
> 
> Chaos can be fun though, yes?
Steve Van now,

I  will only speak for myself and say I prefer to watch movies without reading the books because I view the movies as entertainment.


      




From n2fgc at arrl.net  Sat Jan 17 18:11:35 2009
From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force)
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 13:11:35 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Offering Suggestions
In-Reply-To: <gks1m4+1iq9@eGroups.com>
References: <3EDE007027F54FE5BB347554EAB73995@musiclee> <gks1m4+1iq9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <EF9AAA317078492E9E01EFAFFBC68261@musiclee>

| Geoff:
| If we go out in the boat today, would you like to roe, deer?

[Lee]:
If it is the red boat you bought from Sears & Roebuck. I am afeared that it
leaketh in the fallow water and my hart won't stand the strain. :-)

Lee
(Who loves punny people.)

Do not walk behind me,    | Lee Storm
I may not care to lead;   | N2FGC
Do not walk before me,    | n2fgc at arrl.net (or)
I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at optonline.net
Walk beside me, and be my friend.




From n2fgc at arrl.net  Sat Jan 17 18:27:25 2009
From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force)
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 13:27:25 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Offering Suggestions
In-Reply-To: <gksp87+d7pk@eGroups.com>
References: <754285.68076.qm@web59404.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <gksp87+d7pk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <212C0E3DA04A40D281D1B882887D64F2@musiclee>

| Steve Van:
| > As a published author allow me to critique what you 
| > are writing here, scrap it and start over. I don't care how 
| > many English Teachers that are on the list post and style 
| > makes no sense.
|  
| > Steve having nothing better to do at the moment.
| 
| Geoff:
| Erm, are you being serious? Because, if so,  you are missing 
| the point that Lee and I are indulging in a battle of puns 
| based on our "deer" vocabulary.
| 
| The whole thread is supposed to be funny.

[Lee]:

Now is that funnily punny or punnily funny? :-)

This is the beauty of the OTChat list...we can get to know our fellow Potter
friends through puns, laughter, even tears and venting.  Were you on the
list, Steve Van, when I was prepping for eye surgery?  It was nice to have
the support of all these neat people.  The surgery was cake; the pre-op was
maddening; through it all, I had notes of good wishes and prayers and a big
virtual party when all was well.

So, going back to whether or not you were Sirius, don't have such a Black
look. :-)  Come and pun with us!  It's no fun to be moody. :-)

Cheers,

Lee :-)

Do not walk behind me,    | Lee Storm
I may not care to lead;   | N2FGC
Do not walk before me,    | n2fgc at arrl.net (or)
I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at optonline.net
Walk beside me, and be my friend.




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Sat Jan 17 22:54:17 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 22:54:17 -0000
Subject: What should we do next?
In-Reply-To: <396485.44349.qm@web59402.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <gktnip+rd6h@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Stephen Vandecasteele <vand195550 at ...> 
wrote:

Steve Van;
> I  will only speak for myself and say I prefer to watch movies without reading the books 
because I view the movies as entertainment.

Geoff:
Which raises the rather perplexing question - how do you view the 
books then when they  are the primary sources for the films?






From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Sat Jan 17 23:00:36 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 23:00:36 -0000
Subject: Offering Suggestions
In-Reply-To: <212C0E3DA04A40D281D1B882887D64F2@musiclee>
Message-ID: <gktnuk+45mj@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Lee Storm \(God Is The Healing Force" 
<n2fgc at ...> wrote:
>
> | Steve Van:
> | > As a published author allow me to critique what you 
> | > are writing here, scrap it and start over. I don't care how 
> | > many English Teachers that are on the list post and style 
> | > makes no sense.
> |  
> | > Steve having nothing better to do at the moment.
> | 
> | Geoff:
> | Erm, are you being serious? Because, if so,  you are missing 
> | the point that Lee and I are indulging in a battle of puns 
> | based on our "deer" vocabulary.
> | 
> | The whole thread is supposed to be funny.
> 
> [Lee]:
> 
> Now is that funnily punny or punnily funny? :-)
> 
> This is the beauty of the OTChat list...we can get to know our fellow Potter
> friends through puns, laughter, even tears and venting.  Were you on the
> list, Steve Van, when I was prepping for eye surgery?  It was nice to have
> the support of all these neat people.  The surgery was cake; the pre-op was
> maddening; through it all, I had notes of good wishes and prayers and a big
> virtual party when all was well.
> 
> So, going back to whether or not you were Sirius, don't have such a Black
> look. :-)  Come and pun with us!  It's no fun to be moody. :-)
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Lee :-)

Geoff:
Perhaps we could Potter around a bit because I feel I am being 
Harried to find new puns and it's getting on Mi-nervas. 

Perhaps someone could entertain us in the meanwhile with a 
Slughorn solo?




From vand195550 at yahoo.com  Sun Jan 18 01:10:17 2009
From: vand195550 at yahoo.com (Stephen Vandecasteele)
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 17:10:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: What should we do next?
Message-ID: <959638.79153.qm@web59414.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>





--- On Sat, 1/17/09, Geoff Bannister <gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk> wrote:

> From: Geoff Bannister <gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk>
> Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: What should we do next?
> To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
> Date: Saturday, January 17, 2009, 5:54 PM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>     
>             --- In HPFGU-OTChatter@
> yahoogroups. com, Stephen Vandecasteele <vand195550@
> ...> 
> 
> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Steve Van;
> 
> > I  will only speak for myself and say I prefer to
> watch movies without reading the books 
> 
> because I view the movies as entertainment.
> 
> 
> 
> Geoff:
> 
> Which raises the rather perplexing question - how do you
> view the 
> 
> books then when they  are the primary sources for the
> films?
> 
Steve Van now,
> 
I couldn't disagree more. The movies are merely based on the books as stated in the credits of each movie. As for the books themselves, I have not read them, do not intend on reading them so I have no opinion of them whatsoever. 


      




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sun Jan 18 02:05:52 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 02:05:52 -0000
Subject: Movies and books WAS :Re: What should we do next?
In-Reply-To: <959638.79153.qm@web59414.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <gku2q0+cea0@eGroups.com>

> Steve Van now,
> > 
> I couldn't disagree more. The movies are merely based on the books 
as stated in the credits of each movie. As for the books themselves, 
I have not read them, do not intend on reading them so I have no 
opinion of them whatsoever.
>

Alla:

Without the books movies would not have happened, period. I certainly 
respect your absolute right not to read the books, but movies are not 
merely based on the books, the books are **the basis** for the 
movies, no matter how much filmmakers would change the storylines, 
etc.

Moviemakers did not invent the characters and the main storyline, no? 
I suppose I am just taking an issue with the use of the word 
*merely*. Of course there are movies that dare to claim that they are 
based on the books and I wish filmakers would call them different 
names, because I think those adaptations are insult to the great 
books. "The seeker", anyone?

And I cannot forget poor Susan Cooper trying to say something good 
about the movie and failing sooo badly lol. And then I read her note 
on Netflix about that movie.

Anyways, just wanted to say that I enjoy the movies, but they  owe 
its existence to the 
books as any adaptation movies are. If filmmakers would have based 
the movies on the original screenplay, as hundreds of thousands 
movies are based, then sure I would agree that we should only analyse 
movies on their own merits.

JMO,

Alla




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Sun Jan 18 07:51:46 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 07:51:46 -0000
Subject: What should we do next?
In-Reply-To: <959638.79153.qm@web59414.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <gkun2i+8vtf@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Stephen Vandecasteele <vand195550 at ...> 
wrote:

Steve Van: 
> > > I  will only speak for myself and say I prefer to
> > watch movies without reading the books  
> > because I view the movies as entertainment.
 
Geoff: 
> > Which raises the rather perplexing question - how do you
> > view the books then when they  are the primary sources for the
> > films?
 
Steve Van: 
> I couldn't disagree more. The movies are merely based on the books as stated in the 
credits of each movie. As for the books themselves, I have not read them, do not intend on 
reading them so I have no opinion of them whatsoever.

Geoff:
That really isn't logical. Whether you like a book or not, if 
a film is based on a book, using the characters and the basic 
story line, then the book has got to be the primary source. 
Otherwise, why use the name of the book?

You might just as well give the film a different name and 
write a completely different story - although you would 
have to change the names of the characters because of 
copyright, which defeats the object of the exercise.




From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Sun Jan 18 16:40:34 2009
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 16:40:34 -0000
Subject: What should we do next?
In-Reply-To: <gkun2i+8vtf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gkvm22+qcc6@eGroups.com>


> Geoff: 
> > > Which raises the rather perplexing question - how do you
> > > view the books then when they  are the primary sources for the
> > > films?
>  
> Steve Van: 
> > I couldn't disagree more. The movies are merely based on the 
books as stated in the 
> credits of each movie. As for the books themselves, I have not read 
them, do not intend on 
> reading them so I have no opinion of them whatsoever.
> 
> Geoff:
> That really isn't logical. Whether you like a book or not, if 
> a film is based on a book, using the characters and the basic 
> story line, then the book has got to be the primary source. 
> Otherwise, why use the name of the book?
> 
> You might just as well give the film a different name and 
> write a completely different story - although you would 
> have to change the names of the characters because of 
> copyright, which defeats the object of the exercise.

Magpie:
Many adaptations do do that, though. I think what Steve V. might be 
saying is just that the movies stand on their own. Surely we've all 
seen plenty of movies that were based on books without ever reading 
the book. You shouldn't need to do both. Though they're both for 
entertainment.




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sun Jan 18 16:47:32 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 16:47:32 -0000
Subject: History of English/England
In-Reply-To: <gkqodg+gef9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gkvmf4+8rs9@eGroups.com>

a_svirn wrote:

> So what is your take on Babbity-Rabbity association with Henry VI?
Was> she a poor misguided creature or did she work secretly for the
Yorkists deliberately providing the poor guy with spectacularly bad
advice? (Of course, she might have worked secretly for the French,
just as well. A triple-crosser?) 

Carol responds:

I haven't read the Tales of Beedle the Bard, so I can't answer your
question, sorry.

Carol, who will probably read the book in the store without buying it
when she has an hour or so free




From vand195550 at yahoo.com  Sun Jan 18 17:14:56 2009
From: vand195550 at yahoo.com (Stephen Vandecasteele)
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 09:14:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: What should we do next?
Message-ID: <261.50409.qm@web59407.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>





--- On Sun, 1/18/09, sistermagpie <sistermagpie at earthlink.net> wrote:

> From: sistermagpie <sistermagpie at earthlink.net>
> Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: What should we do next?
> To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
> Date: Sunday, January 18, 2009, 11:40 AM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>     
>             
> 
> > Geoff: 
> 
> > > > Which raises the rather perplexing question
> - how do you
> 
> > > > view the books then when they  are the
> primary sources for the
> 
> > > > films?
> 
> >  
> 
> > Steve Van: 
> 
> > > I couldn't disagree more. The movies are
> merely based on the 
> 
> books as stated in the 
> 
> > credits of each movie. As for the books themselves, I
> have not read 
> 
> them, do not intend on 
> 
> > reading them so I have no opinion of them whatsoever.
> 
> > 
> 
> > Geoff:
> 
> > That really isn't logical. Whether you like a book
> or not, if 
> 
> > a film is based on a book, using the characters and
> the basic 
> 
> > story line, then the book has got to be the primary
> source. 
> 
> > Otherwise, why use the name of the book?
> 
> > 
> 
> > You might just as well give the film a different name
> and 
> 
> > write a completely different story - although you
> would 
> 
> > have to change the names of the characters because of
> 
> 
> > copyright, which defeats the object of the exercise.
> 
> 
> 
> Magpie:
> 
> Many adaptations do do that, though. I think what Steve V.
> might be 
> 
> saying is just that the movies stand on their own. Surely
> we've all 
> 
> seen plenty of movies that were based on books without ever
> reading 
> 
> the book. You shouldn't need to do both. Though
> they're both for 
> 
> entertainment.

Steve Van now,

I don't hold the opinion that one must read the HP Books in order to enjoy the movies. As Magpie put and did so well I do believe the movies stand on their own as far as entertainment goes for me.

Steve who loves movies. 


      




From HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com  Sun Jan 18 18:40:31 2009
From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com (HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 18 Jan 2009 18:40:31 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 1/18/2009, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1232304031.18.92483.m49@yahoogroups.com>

Reminder from: HPFGU-OTChatter Yahoo! Group
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/cal

Weekly Chat
Sunday January 18, 2009
1:00 pm - 2:00 pm
(This event repeats every week.)
Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Notes:
Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour.

To get to the HPfGU room follow this link:
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Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want
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Enter the password: hpfguchat

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From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Sun Jan 18 20:33:35 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 20:33:35 -0000
Subject: What should we do next?
In-Reply-To: <261.50409.qm@web59407.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <gl03mv+iaag@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Stephen Vandecasteele <vand195550 at ...> 
wrote:

> --- On Sun, 1/18/09, sistermagpie <sistermagpie at ...> wrote:

Geoff: 
> > > > > Which raises the rather perplexing question
> > - how do you view the books then when they  are the
> > primary sources for the films?
 
Steve Van: 
> > > > I couldn't disagree more. The movies are
> > merely based on the books as stated in the 
> > > credits of each movie. As for the books 
> > themselves, I have not read  them, do not 
> > intend on reading them so I have no opinion
> > >  of them whatsoever.

Geoff:
> > > That really isn't logical. Whether you like a book
> > or not, if a film is based on a book, using the 
> > characters and the basic  story line, then the book 
> >has got to be the primary source. 

> > > Otherwise, why use the name of the book?
 
> > > You might just as well give the film a different name
> > and  write a completely different story - although you
> > would have to change the names of the characters because of
> > copyright, which defeats the object of the exercise.
 
Magpie: 
> > Many adaptations do do that, though. 

Geoff (now):
Excuse me? Would you care to quote me a film based supposedly 
on a book where the story line and the character names have 
been changed?

I can think of films - the various incarnations of "War of the Worlds" 
for example where the story line has been completely messed around 
and could have been given a totally different name.... But to revamp 
the whole lot is just pointless in terms of saying that it is based on 
or adapted from. Why bother? Just invent your own name.

Magpie:
I think what Steve V.
> > might be saying is just that the movies stand on their 
> > own. Surely we've all  seen plenty of movies that were  
> >based on books without ever reading  the book. You  
> >both. Though they're both for entertainment.

Steve Van: 
> I don't hold the opinion that one must read the HP Books in order to enjoy the movies. 
As Magpie put and did so well I do believe the movies stand on their own as far as 
entertainment goes for me.
 
> Steve who loves movies.

Geoff:
I quite agree with you on that. I have never said that you **must**
read the books. I can quote instances of books where I have seen 
the film/TV versions and not read the books. An example springing 
straight to mind is Charles Dickens. I have greatly enjoyed many 
adaptations - including the BBC TV "David Copperfield" back in 
1999 where I first encountered the name of Daniel Radcliffe - but I 
just find Dickens on the printed page unreadable. I think it's the style.

My main grouse continues to be where the adaptations either leave 
unanswered  questions which are resolved in the books or alter the 
story line which can cause trouble in further adaptations. One instance 
coming to mind was a TV version of  Catherine Cookson's "The Mallens" 
where the two leading characters were killed off at the end of the screen 
version. This therefore ruled out the possibility of the remaining two 
books being filmed because the author **didn't** kill them and the 
story as she continued it needed their existence.

I might also say that, in my case, my introduction to Harry Potter was 
through seeing "Chamber of Secrets" in the cinema on its intial release 
in 2002. That sparked me into getting the books and I have enjoyed 
them side by side ever since.

Geoff
[who wishes that Yahoo chevrons could be quietly harvested 
off-screen so that we didn't have to snip so much :-( ]




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sun Jan 18 20:53:04 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 20:53:04 -0000
Subject: Movies and books WAS: Re: What should we do next?
In-Reply-To: <gkvm22+qcc6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gl04rg+tki5@eGroups.com>

> Magpie:
> Many adaptations do do that, though. I think what Steve V. might be 
> saying is just that the movies stand on their own. Surely we've all 
> seen plenty of movies that were based on books without ever reading 
> the book. You shouldn't need to do both. Though they're both for 
> entertainment.
>

Alla:

Well, yes of course. Movies stand up on their own as finished 
products and one should not need to read books to enjoy movies.

However, while I cannot speak for Geoff, this is not exactly what I 
was saying. I was saying (or trying to say) that while one does not 
need to read the books which are the basis for the movies, one should 
acknowledge the fact (simply because it is a fact) that books are 
primary basis for these movies, you know?

You (hypothetical you) does not need to read the books or enjoy them, 
but to deny that movies would not have existed without the books 
being in existence seems a bit strange to me. And that is what I read 
in Steve's post when he said that the books are merely based on 
movies, you know? Maybe I misread what he was saying, sorry if I did.


Steve Van now: 

I don't hold the opinion that one must read the HP Books in order to 
enjoy the
movies. As Magpie put and did so well I do believe the movies stand 
on their own
as far as entertainment goes for me.


Alla:

And nowhere in my post I said that one must read HP books to enjoy 
the movies, of course not. But what I am saying that the fact that 
without HP books HP movies had never existed in the first place is a 
fact.

As I mentioned elsewhere, I usually much prefer the book to the movie 
it was based on. However, I was able to come up with one movie or 
more precisely TV series where I preferred them to the book it was 
based on. I adore Horratio Hornblower TV series, however, I found 
Horatio Hornblower books to be extremely dry and of course I thought 
that bumping up Archie Kennedy's character to the status of Horatio's 
best friend was the best decision filmmakers made. Now, granted I 
tried reading the books, but I read I think half a book, or maybe two 
thirds of one book. And those series have many books, so I think it 
is fair to say that I almost did  not read them and do not have an 
opinion about other books, only first one.

But I would never say that the books are anything else but primary 
source for the movies and I would certainly acknowledge that without 
the books movies would have never existed. Therefore even though I 
did not like the first book and have no opinions about other books of 
the series, I respect the books if for nothing else but for the fact 
that thanks to those books I was able to enjoy the TV series so much. 
Does it make sense?





From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sun Jan 18 21:18:59 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 21:18:59 -0000
Subject: Movies and books WAS :Re: What should we do next?
In-Reply-To: <gl03mv+iaag@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gl06c3+h3lk@eGroups.com>

> Geoff (now):
> Excuse me? Would you care to quote me a film based supposedly 
> on a book where the story line and the character names have 
> been changed?

Alla:

Oh, yes. For example I am not sure about you, but I was erm how to 
put it, surprised, I guess, when I read that The 13th Warrior is 
supposed to be based on Beowulf.

Geoff:
> I can think of films - the various incarnations of "War of the 
Worlds" 
> for example where the story line has been completely messed around 
> and could have been given a totally different name.... But to 
revamp 
> the whole lot is just pointless in terms of saying that it is based 
on 
> or adapted from. Why bother? Just invent your own name.
>

Alla:

LOL Geoff, I was screaming that question why bother  when I watched 
quite a few adaptations. And of course we have The Seeker.




From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Jan 18 22:13:06 2009
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 22:13:06 -0000
Subject: Of Deer and English and Ravenclaw
Message-ID: <gl09hi+g7kh@eGroups.com>

Carol genealogized in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/38500>:

<< We've also got a connection with (snip) a semi-famous colonial
preacher ancestor named Michael Wigglesworth >>

'Wigglesworth' would be a great Potterverse name. We are too
accustomed to the names 'Bacon' and 'Drake' to notice that they're
Animagus names, or someting.

Geoff wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/38507>:

<< A stag is *any* male deer. In season, as you say it is recognisable
by its antlers, in the winter by its larger size. I frequently see
them, often within a couple of miles of home. My area is famous for
its herds of Red deer. >>

A colleague at work calls the deer who sometimes eat his garden 'Jane
Doe' and 'Bill Buckley'. I vaguely suppose that in this region they
are mule deer.

Cabal wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/38511>:

<< I live in Bucks County, wonder where it got its name? >>

Pennsylvania? Wikipedia says William Penn named it after
Buckinghamshire, England, of which Wikipedia says "The name
Buckinghamshire is Anglo-Saxon in origin and means The district
(scire) of Bucca's home. Bucca's home refers to Buckingham in the
north of the county, and is named after an Anglo-Saxon landowner."

Geoff wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/38542>:

<< One use of stag in connection with men is "stag night" where a
bridegroom-to-be gets together with male friends for an evening close
to the marriage. I suspect that this might be the same usage on the
west side of the pond? >>

USA has the same tradition, but the nomenclature is a bit different.
The pre-wedding festival, traditionally the night before, is called
'bachelor party' and any all-male festivity can be called a 'stag party'.

Carol wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/38549>:

<< 410-600 Settlement of most of Britain by Germanic peoples (Angles,
Saxons, Jutes, some Frisians) speaking West Germanic dialects
descended from Proto-Germanic. <snip> Celtic peoples, most of whom are
Christianized, are pushed increasingly (despite occasional violent
uprisings) into the marginal areas of Britain: Ireland, Scotland,
Wales. Anglo-Saxons, originally sea-farers, settle down as farmers,
exploiting rich English farmland. >>

Nitpick: Some of the Celts were pushed all the way from Britain
(Cornwall) to the Continent (Brittany).

Nitpick: The Celtic people were NOT pushed into Ireland; they were
already there and the Saxons didn't reach Ireland. At that time,
Ireland was called Scotia and its Gaels were called Scots, such as
John Erigena Scotus. Later, Gaels from Ireland conquered a nice chunk
of Northern Britain, to which the name Scotia was somehow transferred,
thus Duns Scotus.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erigena> says: << Johannes Scotus
Eriugena (c. 815?877) (also Johannes Scotus Erigena, Johannes Scottus
Eriugena, John the Irishman), was an Irish theologian, Neoplatonist
philosopher, and poet. He is known for having translated and made
commentaries upon the work of Pseudo-Dionysius. // "Eriugena" is
perhaps the most suitable surname form as he himself uses it in one
manuscript. 'Scottus' in the Middle Ages was the Latin term for "Irish
or Gaelic". The spelling 'Scottus' has the authority of the early
manuscripts until perhaps the 11th century. Occasionally he is also
named 'Scottigena' ("Irishborn" or "Gaelic") in the manuscripts.  >>

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duns_Scotus>: << The blessed John Duns
Scotus, O.F.M (c. 1266 ? December 8, 1308) was one of the most
important theologians and philosophers of the High Middle Ages. He was
nicknamed Doctor Subtilis for his penetrating and subtle manner of
thought. // Little is known of Scotus' life. He was probably born
~1270 [1] at Duns, in the Borders in Scotland. In 1291, he was
ordained in Northampton, England. >>

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scoti>: << Scoti or Scotti (Old Irish
Scot, modern Scottish Gaelic Sgaothaich) was the generic name given by
the Romans to the Celtic Gaels who raided from Ireland. Some of them,
from the Ulster Kingdom of D?l Riata, migrated to the Inner Hebrides,
Clyde islands and Argyll, extending D?l Riata. In time the name became
applied to all the people within this kingdom, hence the modern words
Scot and Scotland. It is not believed that any Gaelic groups called
themselves Scoti in ancient times, except when referring to themselves
in Latin. >>

Carol wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/38560>:

<< ... Aethelred the Unready ... Harald Hardrada (for "hard reign") >>

As Carol knows, poor Aethelred's epithet means 'the ill-advised'
because 'rede' means 'advice or counsel', altho' the word is no longer
in general use.

<http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=read>: 
<< read 
    O.E. r?dan (W.Saxon), redan (Anglian) "to explain, read, rule,
advise" (related to r?d, red "advice"), from P.Gmc. *raedanan (cf.
O.N. ra?a, O.Fris. reda, Du. raden, O.H.G. ratan, Ger. raten "to
advise, counsel, guess"), from PIE base *rei- "to reason, count" 
(snip)
Words from this root in most modern Gmc. languages still mean
"counsel, advise." Transference to "understand the meaning of written
symbols" is unique to O.E. and (perhaps under Eng. influence) O.N. ra?a. 
(snip)
O.E. r?da "advise, counsel" is in the name of Anglo-Saxon king ??elr?d
II (968-1016), lit. "good counsel," and in his epithet Unr?d, usually
rendered into Mod.Eng. as Unready, but really meaning "no-counsel." >>

I quoted all that because of "O.N. ra?a". Poul Anderson translated
Harald's epithet as 'Hard rede' because one standard translation is
"stern counsel". Tough advice like 'surrender to me or die'.

Potioncat wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/38520>:

<<  For that matter, why isn't Gryffindor's animal a gryffin? And why
are all these tokens Muggle animals rather than magical ones? >>

Except that Salazar chose a snake for his symbol because he was a
Parselmouth, we have only fanfic for why the FOunders chose their
symbols and for how they got their names. 

I like to think that Rowena's bronze eagle was the actual eagle of a
defeated Roman Legion which she was very proud of having found on an
archaeological exploration. Altho' it's perfectly possible that she
changed to her symbol to The King Of Birds when she had to work with
Godric whose symbol was The King Of Beasts. I can't imagine how Rowena
got her surname, other than some listie's suggestion that she was a
raven Animagus.





From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Sun Jan 18 22:13:49 2009
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 22:13:49 -0000
Subject: What should we do next?
In-Reply-To: <gl03mv+iaag@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gl09it+k93o@eGroups.com>

 
> Magpie: 
> > > Many adaptations do do that, though. 
> 
> Geoff (now):
> Excuse me? Would you care to quote me a film based supposedly 
> on a book where the story line and the character names have 
> been changed?
 
> I can think of films - the various incarnations of "War of the 
Worlds" 
> for example where the story line has been completely messed around 
> and could have been given a totally different name.... But to 
revamp 
> the whole lot is just pointless in terms of saying that it is based 
on 
> or adapted from. Why bother? Just invent your own name.

Magpie:
So you just named one yourself. The Curious Case of Benjamin Button, 
while keeping the name, I believe does it too. Lady from Shanghai, 
The Seeker, Great Expectations....

The answer to "why bother" is that you might have a title or original 
property you think might bring people in or is worth something or you 
just started out by buying it. Movies revamp things whenever somebody 
at the studio thinks something would work better in a movie. They 
don't always feel it's necessarily to be true to the original. 
Sometimes you can't.
 
> Geoff:
> My main grouse continues to be where the adaptations either leave 
> unanswered  questions which are resolved in the books or alter the 
> story line which can cause trouble in further adaptations. One 
instance 
> coming to mind was a TV version of  Catherine Cookson's "The 
Mallens" 
> where the two leading characters were killed off at the end of the 
screen 
> version. This therefore ruled out the possibility of the remaining 
two 
> books being filmed because the author **didn't** kill them and the 
> story as she continued it needed their existence.

Magpie:
The opposite happened in Jurassic Park--the book killed off a 
character left alive in the movie. I believe the author decided he 
hadn't died after all when he wrote a sequel.

But somebody could decide to adapt the second book without attaching 
it to the first movie. There have been three Ripley movies that I 
recall. Two are based on the same book though both change the ending 
to make filming the sequels seemingly impossible. The other is an 
adaptation of one of the later books that doesn't acknowledge either 
of the earlier adaptated books.
 
-m




From juli17 at aol.com  Sun Jan 18 22:30:52 2009
From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 17:30:52 EST
Subject: What should we do next?
Message-ID: <c7b.4b5fbd27.36a5079c@aol.com>

 
In a message dated 1/18/2009 12:38:56 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,  
HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com writes:

Geoff  (now):
Excuse me? Would you care to quote me a film based supposedly 
on  a book where the story line and the character names have 
been  changed?

I can think of films - the various incarnations of "War of the  Worlds" 
for example where the story line has been completely messed around  
and could have been given a totally different name.... But to revamp  
the whole lot is just pointless in terms of saying that it is based on  
or adapted from. Why bother? Just invent your own  name.





Julie:
The Bourne films come to mind. Yes, the name of the character is the  same
and the very basic set up remains, but after that the books and the films 
diverge almost completely. 
 
In the US film industry there is even a distinction between movies based  
closely
on books ("based on") versus movies where little but the title and few  
character
names come from the original source material in the book  ("inspired by"). 
I'm not
sure if there is some set rule for calling your film "based on" versus  
"inspired by"
but it there is a definite delineation in Hollywood. 
 
The Harry Potter films are most definitely BASED ON the books, as  they
follow the book plots quite closely, even when pertinent moments and  certain
characters or secondary plot threads are deliberately left out in the  name of
brevity. What is actually changed or added--Nigel instead of Colin,  shrunken 
heads, etc--are very minor changes and additions overall. (Consider how  many
things were left out of the film Gone With The Wind, or the fairly  
substantial
differences between the book and movie versions of The Wizard of  Oz, yet 
both of those are very much still based on their source books.)
 
I'd add that the HP books to me are far "meatier" than the film, with  much 
more
plot complexity and character depth (as is usually the case in  comparing the
two mediums, as books can get into characters' minds and present  details not 
possible in a visual medium), and I personally feel I would have missed out  
on a
much richer HP experience if I had only seen the films. But that's just me  
:-)
 
Julie, who also appreciates the feast for the eyes that the films have  given 
me
**************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy 
steps! 
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1215855013x1201028747/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072%26hmpgID=62%26bcd=De
cemailfooterNO62)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Mon Jan 19 00:43:37 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 00:43:37 -0000
Subject: What should we do next?
In-Reply-To: <c7b.4b5fbd27.36a5079c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <gl0ibp+f4ht@eGroups.com>

> Julie:
> The Bourne films come to mind. Yes, the name of the character is 
the  same
> and the very basic set up remains, but after that the books and the 
films 
> diverge almost completely. 

Alla:

I loved Bourne books and when I was watching the first Bourne movie, 
that is actually exactly what I had an urge to do, scream at my TV 
and say why bother. I mean, seriously, movie stands on its own as an 
action flick perfectly well IMO. What the hell it had in common with 
Bourne books though I do not know, no idea. Oh wait, he had amnesia 
and had the same name, and yes, was spy, agent of some sort. That is 
I think so.

But again, see it is a very good example. I could not watch the 
second movie, thought it was bad, but third was perfectly good movie 
IMO, just the one that has very little to do with amazing books.

So, yes, I think Magpie is perfectly right when she wrote that 
filmmakers often leave the name in, even if they make storyline 
unrecognizable to attract the certain audience, and I think this 
certain audience are book fans.

But sorry, I think it is a dishonest crap, forgive my language ( not 
on Magpie behalf of course, on the filmmakers' part).

Sure, movie needs to make money and I absolutely have no problem with 
them wanting to attract book fans, **if movie is based on the book 
that is**.

Bourne books have very little to do with the movies, so really if 
filmmakers said that the movie was as you say *inspired* by the 
books, I would have no problem with it.

And in general, if filmmakers think that they can make a better story 
out of the classics, if they think that their screenwriters can write 
better than Susan Cooper for example, because her books are boring, 
well I think they need to write original screenplays and stick with 
it.

My opinion of course.

Julie: 
> In the US film industry there is even a distinction between movies 
based  
> closely
> on books ("based on") versus movies where little but the title and 
few  
> character
> names come from the original source material in the book  
("inspired by"). 
> I'm not
> sure if there is some set rule for calling your film "based on" 
versus  
> "inspired by"
> but it there is a definite delineation in Hollywood. 

Alla:

Definitely, I heard about it too, and really I think half of the 
adaptations that are supposedly based on the books need to say that 
they are inspired by them. Because really,  for example all 
adaptations of Count Monte Cristo that I saw (except ironically one 
Japanese anime) at best deserve *loosely based* and at worst a 
different name all together. And I can name quite a few of those.

Sorry, I know I am ranting (obviously not at you, Julie) and I am not 
even sure if I am responding to original points myself, but what 
Hollywood does to great books is one of my biggest pet peeves, and 
when they say it that they do it in part because audience will not go 
otherwise, I want to slap them. Because see, I am part of the 
audience and nobody asked me, if I want to see Beowulf to become a 
liar instead of epic hero, NOBODY asked me if I want to see wonderful 
Will from Susan Cooper book to be, well, I have to look for a word. 
The list goes on and on.


Julie:  
> The Harry Potter films are most definitely BASED ON the books, as  
they
> follow the book plots quite closely, even when pertinent moments 
and  certain
> characters or secondary plot threads are deliberately left out in 
the  name of
> brevity. <SNIP>

Alla:

Agreed.




From vand195550 at yahoo.com  Mon Jan 19 00:58:26 2009
From: vand195550 at yahoo.com (Stephen Vandecasteele)
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 16:58:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: What should we do next?
Message-ID: <244296.98770.qm@web59408.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>





--- On Sun, 1/18/09, dumbledore11214 <dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> From: dumbledore11214 <dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: What should we do next?
> To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
> Date: Sunday, January 18, 2009, 7:43 PM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>     
>             > Julie:
> 
> > The Bourne films come to mind. Yes, the name of the
> character is 
> 
> the  same
> 
> > and the very basic set up remains, but after that the
> books and the 
> 
> films 
> 
> > diverge almost completely. 
> 
Steve Van responds,

We couldn't disagree more. I am beginning to be of the opinion that you just hate movies. By no stretch of the imagination does one have to read the Bourne books in order to follow the Bourne Movies.

Steve Van


      




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Mon Jan 19 01:15:18 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 01:15:18 -0000
Subject: Movies v Books WAS :Re: What should we do next?
In-Reply-To: <244296.98770.qm@web59408.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <gl0k76+4e26@eGroups.com>

> > Julie:
> > 
> > > The Bourne films come to mind. Yes, the name of the
> > character is 
> > 
> > the  same
> > 
> > > and the very basic set up remains, but after that the
> > books and the 
> > 
> > films 
> > 
> > > diverge almost completely. 
> > 
> Steve Van responds,
> 
> We couldn't disagree more. I am beginning to be of the opinion that 
you just hate movies. By no stretch of the imagination does one have 
to read the Bourne books in order to follow the Bourne Movies.
> 
> Steve Van
>


Alla:

Steve, nowhere in the part you quote did Julie say that one has to 
read Bourne books to follow the movies. She said that they diverge 
almost completely from the books except the name and very basic set 
up. So I do not 
understand what are you arguing against. Are you disagreeing with the 
premise that Bourne movies have very little to do with the books? And 
of course nowhere did Julie say that she hates movies. 




From vand195550 at yahoo.com  Mon Jan 19 01:18:00 2009
From: vand195550 at yahoo.com (Stephen Vandecasteele)
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 17:18:00 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Movies and books WAS: Re: What should we do next?
Message-ID: <308265.70985.qm@web59407.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>





--- On Sun, 1/18/09, dumbledore11214 <dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> From: dumbledore11214 <dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Movies and books WAS: Re: What should we do next?
> To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
> Date: Sunday, January 18, 2009, 3:53 PM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>     
>             > Magpie:
> 
> > Many adaptations do do that, though. I think what
> Steve V. might be 
> 
> > saying is just that the movies stand on their own.
> Surely we've all 
> 
> > seen plenty of movies that were based on books without
> ever reading 
> 
> > the book. You shouldn't need to do both. Though
> they're both for 
> 
> > entertainment.
> 
> >
> 
> 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, yes of course. Movies stand up on their own as
> finished 
> 
> products and one should not need to read books to enjoy
> movies.
> 
> 
> 
> However, while I cannot speak for Geoff, this is not
> exactly what I 
> 
> was saying. I was saying (or trying to say) that while one
> does not 
> 
> need to read the books which are the basis for the movies,
> one should 
> 
> acknowledge the fact (simply because it is a fact) that
> books are 
> 
> primary basis for these movies, you know?
> 
> 
> 
> You (hypothetical you) does not need to read the books or
> enjoy them, 
> 
> but to deny that movies would not have existed without the
> books 
> 
> being in existence seems a bit strange to me. And that is
> what I read 
> 
> in Steve's post when he said that the books are merely
> based on 
> 
> movies, you know? Maybe I misread what he was saying, sorry
> if I did.
> 
> 
> 
> Steve Van now: 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't hold the opinion that one must read the HP
> Books in order to 
> 
> enjoy the
> 
> movies. As Magpie put and did so well I do believe the
> movies stand 
> 
> on their own
> 
> as far as entertainment goes for me.
> 
> 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> 
> 
> And nowhere in my post I said that one must read HP books
> to enjoy 
> 
> the movies, of course not. But what I am saying that the
> fact that 
> 
> without HP books HP movies had never existed in the first
> place is a 
> 
> fact.
> 
> 
> 
> As I mentioned elsewhere, I usually much prefer the book to
> the movie 
> 
> it was based on. However, I was able to come up with one
> movie or 
> 
> more precisely TV series where I preferred them to the book
> it was 
> 
> based on. I adore Horratio Hornblower TV series, however, I
> found 
> 
> Horatio Hornblower books to be extremely dry and of course
> I thought 
> 
> that bumping up Archie Kennedy's character to the
> status of Horatio's 
> 
> best friend was the best decision filmmakers made. Now,
> granted I 
> 
> tried reading the books, but I read I think half a book, or
> maybe two 
> 
> thirds of one book. And those series have many books, so I
> think it 
> 
> is fair to say that I almost did  not read them and do not
> have an 
> 
> opinion about other books, only first one.
> 
> 
> 
> But I would never say that the books are anything else but
> primary 
> 
> source for the movies and I would certainly acknowledge
> that without 
> 
> the books movies would have never existed. Therefore even
> though I 
> 
> did not like the first book and have no opinions about
> other books of 
> 
> the series, I respect the books if for nothing else but for
> the fact 
> 
> that thanks to those books I was able to enjoy the TV
> series so much. 
> 
> Does it make sense?

Steve V Now,

Sometimes the lack of words speaks volumes.


      




From YasminOaks at aol.com  Mon Jan 19 02:13:52 2009
From: YasminOaks at aol.com (YasminOaks at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 21:13:52 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Movies v Books WAS :Re: What should we do next?
In-Reply-To: <gl0k76+4e26@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8CB47F2B511940A-510-DA7@mblk-d31.sysops.aol.com>

Hi. I can see how this is a no win discussion as everyone has their own different way of enjoyment. Personally I can live without movies, but I could never live without books. I have gone over half my life never watching tv as I prefer to read. I also can say that I love the Harry Potter movies and can watch them again and again. Everything about them is magnificent. I can easily see how people like Steve V. and my daughters get so much out of the movies alone. In my own humble opinion I see so much that the movies just can't fit in and prefer the books. 

It is really wonderful when the movie makers can work so hard to bring the book to life and I feel for the most part they have done a terrific job with the Harry Potter series.

Hugs,
Cathy


-----Original Message-----
From: dumbledore11214 <dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com>
To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 8:15 pm
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Movies v Books WAS :Re: What should we do next?






> > Julie:
> > 
> > > The Bourne films come to mind. Yes, the name of the
> > character is 
> > 
> > the same
> > 
> > > and the very basic set up remains, but after that the
> > books and the 
> > 
> > films 
> > 
> > > diverge almost completely. 
> > 
> Steve Van responds,
> 
> We couldn't disagree more. I am beginning to be of the opinion that 
you just hate movies. By no stretch of the imagination does one have 
to read the Bourne books in order to follow the Bourne Movies.
> 
> Steve Van
>

Alla:

Steve, nowhere in the part you quote did Julie say that one has to 
read Bourne books to follow the movies. She said that they diverge 
almost completely from the books except the name and very basic set 
up. So I do not 
understand what are you arguing against. Are you disagreeing with the 
premise that Bourne movies have very little to do with the books? And 
of course nowhere did Julie say that she hates movies. 



 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From vand195550 at yahoo.com  Mon Jan 19 02:22:42 2009
From: vand195550 at yahoo.com (Stephen Vandecasteele)
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 18:22:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Movies v Books WAS :Re: What should we do next?
Message-ID: <677336.82455.qm@web59407.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>





--- On Sun, 1/18/09, YasminOaks at aol.com <YasminOaks at aol.com> wrote:

> From: YasminOaks at aol.com <YasminOaks at aol.com>
> Subject: Re: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Movies v Books WAS :Re: What should we do next?
> To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
> Date: Sunday, January 18, 2009, 9:13 PM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>     
>             Hi. I can see how this is a no win
> discussion as everyone has their own different way of
> enjoyment. Personally I can live without movies, but I could
> never live without books. I have gone over half my life
> never watching tv as I prefer to read. I also can say that I
> love the Harry Potter movies and can watch them again and
> again. Everything about them is magnificent. I can easily
> see how people like Steve V. and my daughters get so much
> out of the movies alone. In my own humble opinion I see so
> much that the movies just can't fit in and prefer the
> books. 
> 
> 
> 
> It is really wonderful when the movie makers can work so
> hard to bring the book to life and I feel for the most part
> they have done a terrific job with the Harry Potter series.
> 
> 
> 
> Hugs,
> 
> Cathy

Steve V Responds,

Well put Cathy.


      




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Mon Jan 19 03:11:03 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 03:11:03 -0000
Subject: Books to movies to books was Re: What should we do next?
In-Reply-To: <gl03mv+iaag@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gl0r08+d0iq@eGroups.com>

 
> Geoff:
> I quite agree with you on that. I have never said that you **must**
> read the books. I can quote instances of books where I have seen 
> the film/TV versions and not read the books. An example springing 
> straight to mind is Charles Dickens. 

Potioncat:
While I enjoy reading Dickens. Just, not too much at a time. ;-)

My example of watching a movie, but not reading the book would be the 
miniseries "Cranford." I highly recommend it. But I could not read the 
set of stories it was based on, like Geoff and Dickens, it was the 
style that stopped me. Based on a few moments by the movie-makers in 
the special features, I think they may have filled in a bit with some 
additional story line. If I had been a fan of the books, I might not be 
too happy with that. Since all I know is the movie, it makes no 
difference to me.

That's part of the issue. If a movie maker wants to turn a book into a 
movie he can change things around pretty freely---if the book doesn't 
have a significant following and if the author isn't too careful with 
the contract. But making a movie for an audience who is already fans of 
the book is harder. 

>Geoff:
> My main grouse continues to be where the adaptations either leave 
> unanswered  questions which are resolved in the books or alter the 
> story line which can cause trouble in further adaptations. 

Potioncat:
Absolutely! It must have been particularly difficult with the HP 
movies, since the whole story hadn't been printed. Even with JKR giving 
guidence, it seems she didn't always tell them why something or someone 
needed to be in a movie. 

Movies that were always meant to be movies have a different feel. But 
I've gone there before in a similar thread. What I hate is a movie 
based on a book; that then generates a movie-version book.

Has anyone read "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?"? (OK, grammar 
police, did I punctuate that one properly?) The movie version is "Blade 
Runner". The producers bought the right to use the title which is 
really to a different book by a surgeon. Don't ask me why they changed 
the name or why they changed to "Blade Runner". I don't remember any 
blades in the movie. I liked the movie, but at the time I had read the 
book so long before, that I couldn't tell how how true to the story the 
movie was.

There are also movies or plays that are based on/ inspired by / older 
stories. Alla gave an expample of Beowolf. Or take "West Side Story" 
That's a re-telling of "Romeo and Juliet." "Apocolypse Now" is 
from "Heart of Darkness." I'm sure there are more.








From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Mon Jan 19 07:41:59 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 07:41:59 -0000
Subject: Movies and books WAS: Re: What should we do next?
In-Reply-To: <308265.70985.qm@web59407.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <gl1as7+fqgm@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Stephen Vandecasteele <vand195550 at ...> 
wrote:
 
Steve:
> Sometimes the lack of words speaks volumes.

Geoff:
No comment.
:-))






From s_ings at yahoo.com  Mon Jan 19 15:13:38 2009
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 07:13:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: What should we do next?
In-Reply-To: <244296.98770.qm@web59408.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <655445.32896.qm@web63406.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

> Julie:
> > 
> > > The Bourne films come to mind. Yes, the name of the character is the same and the very basic set up remains, but after that the books and the films diverge almost completely. 
> > 
> Steve Van responds,
> 
> We couldn't disagree more. I am beginning to be of the
> opinion that you just hate movies. By no stretch of the
> imagination does one have to read the Bourne books in order
> to follow the Bourne Movies.
> 
>
Sheryll:

How could you possibly determine that someone hates (rather a strong word, that 'hate') movies just because they note the difference between the book and the movie. It wasn't stated that you had to read the books to understand the Bourne movies, simply that the storylines are completely different. And that, sadly (IMO) is the truth. Not that movies aren't decent action films, just that they're not what I would expect as someone who'd read the books. 

I believe the point has been made that using the same title as the book for a movie leads a movie viewer towards certain expectations that the plot of the movie would be fairly similar to that of the book. To then see a movie and find it bears no resemblance to the written work can be disappointing. 

I'm both an avid reader and a serious movie viewer, for what that's worth. Sometimes there are decent book to film adaptations. Sometimes what appears on screen is a total travesty (thinks of The Seeker and cringes - I concur with Alla and many others on that one!). This doesn't mean I don't enjoy some movies where the plotlines veer away from the canon text. It simply means that the movie title as misled me into enterly the theatre (or popping in the DVD) with the wrong expectations for what I'm going to view.

Sheryll, whose stats at the store say she watches about 400 movies a year!


      __________________________________________________________________
Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now at
http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com.



From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Mon Jan 19 15:49:41 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 15:49:41 -0000
Subject: Movies v books WAS :Re: What should we do next?
In-Reply-To: <655445.32896.qm@web63406.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <gl27el+vvbj@eGroups.com>

> Sheryll:
> 
> How could you possibly determine that someone hates (rather a 
strong word, that 'hate') movies just because they note the 
difference between the book and the movie. It wasn't stated that you 
had to read the books to understand the Bourne movies, simply that 
the storylines are completely different. And that, sadly (IMO) is the 
truth. Not that movies aren't decent action films, just that they're 
not what I would expect as someone who'd read the books. 
<SNIP>


Alla:

Have you seen Bourne TV series with Richard Chamberlain (spelling?), 
Sheryll?

Now those series IMO are definitely **based** on the books. Sure they 
made changes to storyline, but storyline and characters are still 
very recognizable IMO. When I was watching the first movie, I kept 
thinking how could they call it based on the books, when the main 
villain is absent, if nothing else.

Oh well, as I said, I believe those movies stand perfectly well on 
their own, I just wish they would at least put in *inspired* by 
Bourne books.

JMO,

Alla




From vand195550 at yahoo.com  Mon Jan 19 17:09:01 2009
From: vand195550 at yahoo.com (Stephen Vandecasteele)
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 09:09:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Movies and books WAS: Re: What should we do next?
Message-ID: <507260.27074.qm@web59413.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>





--- On Mon, 1/19/09, Geoff Bannister <gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk> wrote:

> From: Geoff Bannister <gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk>
> Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Movies and books WAS: Re: What should we do next?
> To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
> Date: Monday, January 19, 2009, 2:41 AM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>     
>             --- In HPFGU-OTChatter@
> yahoogroups. com, Stephen Vandecasteele <vand195550@
> ...> 
> 
> wrote:
> 
>  
> 
> Steve:
> 
> > Sometimes the lack of words speaks volumes.
> 
> 
> 
> Geoff:
> 
> No comment.
> 
> :-))
>

That's what I thought.
Steve V. 


      




From alexisnguyen at gmail.com  Mon Jan 19 20:04:03 2009
From: alexisnguyen at gmail.com (P. Alexis Nguyen)
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 15:04:03 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Books to movies to books was Re: What should we 
	do next?
In-Reply-To: <gl0r08+d0iq@eGroups.com>
References: <gl03mv+iaag@eGroups.com> <gl0r08+d0iq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b6e131bf0901191204m54615f74qdd66b73542bc234c@mail.gmail.com>

Potioncat:
> My example of watching a movie, but not reading the book would be the
> miniseries "Cranford." I highly recommend it. But I could not read the
> set of stories it was based on, like Geoff and Dickens, it was the
> style that stopped me. Based on a few moments by the movie-makers in
> the special features, I think they may have filled in a bit with some
> additional story line. If I had been a fan of the books, I might not be
> too happy with that. Since all I know is the movie, it makes no
> difference to me.

Ali:
Another rather popular example is the Gone With the Wind movie (I
believe someone mentioned it a while back).  Most everyone I know who
likes the movie couldn't get through the book (myself included).  For
me, Dickens falls into that category.  Yes, I recognized the great
writing but the man was ridiculously verbose (a side effect of being
paid by the word?), and I just can't read Dickens without recalling
the three separate times I read Tale of Two Cities and wanted to cry
(I liked Books 1 and 3, but Book 2 always got me to skip over
paragraphs) - with things like this, I feel like movies work well in
distilling the basic story and giving it mass appeal.

On the other hand, Dumas (pere) also writes extremely long books, but
I could read the musketeers trilogy over and over again (though
possibly never again in French) without ever acknowledging movie
versions were made (then again, no one wants to cover the middle story
anyway).

Oddly hypocritical of me, yes?  :)


Potioncat:
> But making a movie for an audience who is already fans of
> the book is harder.

Ali
I think that's exactly the problem right there.  For someone like
Steve Van, who doesn't care to read the books, he can take the movies
unto themselves, judging them against their own internal logic/story.
Contrast that to most of us who see the movies and books existing in
contrast to each other, we can't judge each medium by itself so we
always find things wanting here or there.  It's especially a big
problem for HP because the books are now done but the movies aren't.
We can nitpick about what was left out in one movie (versus it's
corresponding book) but what if it comes back in another movie where
it's more convenient for that medium to have it there?

And then there's the interpretation issue, where one reader or one
large portion of readers see one point as being especially essential
and crucial to the book but the script writer sees something else as
the main focus.  The recent Pride & Prejudice movie with Kiera
Knightly is an example.  The script writer clearly focused on the
romance between Darcy and Lizzy, disregarding all else for that; my
opinion is that the romance was the vehicle by which Jane Austen
conveyed how society worked in her times.  After seeing movie, I had
to really look hard unto myself to come to a conclusion about the
movie (my stance was that it stood as a well-made movie but shouldn't
have called itself Pride & Prejudice - my opinion, of course) because
I really had to struggle to remember that there are people who read
Pride & Prejudice as just a romance.

It's a fuzzy that movies v. books arena when we necessarily say one is
better than the other.  It's hard to judge a medium by it's very, very
different cousin - movies and books depend on such different methods
to get their audiences to get the final message.  As such, I've come
up with a rule for myself:  if I know of a movie coming out for a book
I want to read, I shall hold off on reading the book.  I did this for
Twilight (and enjoyed the movie more for it) and will do it for Neil
Gaiman's Coraline - don't know why but I can ignore the movie for the
book but not the reverse.

By the way, for whoever mentioned it, the Count of Monte Cristo anime
was probably the only on-screen version of that novel that ever came
close to conveying the darkness and beautiful story behind the book.
(Let's not forget that fluff piece that was Gerard Depardieu's
version.)  Ah irony.

~Ali, who apologizes for any meandering in this email but she's
writing from work and typing furiously so can't double check anything
:(



From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Mon Jan 19 20:24:01 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 20:24:01 -0000
Subject: Books to movies to books was Re: What should we do next?
In-Reply-To: <b6e131bf0901191204m54615f74qdd66b73542bc234c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <gl2nh1+qrtk@eGroups.com>

Ali:
Another rather popular example is the Gone With the Wind movie (I
believe someone mentioned it a while back). Most everyone I know who
likes the movie couldn't get through the book (myself included). 
<SNIP>

Alla:

Personally I loved the book and movie.

Ali:
On the other hand, Dumas (pere) also writes extremely long books, but
I could read the musketeers trilogy over and over again (though
possibly never again in French) without ever acknowledging movie
versions were made (then again, no one wants to cover the middle story
anyway).

Oddly hypocritical of me, yes? :)

Alla:

Squeee, it is so rare to meet Dumas' fan here. Three musketeers are 
amazing and while I know one movie which to me comes close enough to 
the book, I still think the book is tons better and that horrible 
Disney version should never been called Three musketeers.


Potioncat:
> But making a movie for an audience who is already fans of
> the book is harder.

Ali
I think that's exactly the problem right there. For someone like
Steve Van, who doesn't care to read the books, he can take the movies
unto themselves, judging them against their own internal logic/story.
Contrast that to most of us who see the movies and books existing in
contrast to each other, we can't judge each medium by itself so we
always find things wanting here or there. It's especially a big
problem for HP because the books are now done but the movies aren't.
We can nitpick about what was left out in one movie (versus it's
corresponding book) but what if it comes back in another movie where
it's more convenient for that medium to have it there?

Alla:

But the thing is, I don't do that. I mean, yes I  often do find 
myself wishing that filmmakers would include storylines they would 
cut out, sure, as fan of books it is indeed inevitable. However, once 
I get over that fact, I do try to give movie it is fair chance and if 
movie stands out on its own, I would still say it is a good movie. 
The only thing I would insist on that this movie has nothing to do 
with the book, you know?

I would never say the movie is bad simply because it does not reflect 
the book in detail, except one thing ? I think if movie does not 
reflect the book, while it claims it does, it is a lie on filmmakers' 
behalf, unfair capitalizing on the name of the book (any book) that I 
know and love.

I would call the movie bad, if I consider the acting bad, if I 
consider the visuals bad, the storyline not watchable, etc, etc. 
Again, Bourne movies, I certainly would not call them bad, just 
having very little to do with the books.

Although having said that, yes, sure there were couple of times when 
to me the story in the book was so much richer that maybe that 
influenced me. But again, that was mainly disgust that the book was 
butchered so badly and they still wanted fans of the books to come 
and see - The Seeker comes to mind again. 

Ali:
<SNIP>
As such, I've come
up with a rule for myself: if I know of a movie coming out for a book
I want to read, I shall hold off on reading the book. I did this for
Twilight (and enjoyed the movie more for it) and will do it for Neil
Gaiman's Coraline - don't know why but I can ignore the movie for the
book but not the reverse.

Alla:

Oh yeah, for me I try not to reread the book if movie is coming.

Ali:
By the way, for whoever mentioned it, the Count of Monte Cristo anime
was probably the only on-screen version of that novel that ever came
close to conveying the darkness and beautiful story behind the book.
(Let's not forget that fluff piece that was Gerard Depardieu's
version.) Ah irony.

Alla:

Yes, that is what I was trying to say, I think it is the best 
adaptation from every movie I watched that called themselves "Count 
of Monte Cristo". 







From eggplant107 at hotmail.com  Mon Jan 19 21:01:49 2009
From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107)
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 21:01:49 -0000
Subject: Books to movies to books was Re: What should we do next?.
In-Reply-To: <b6e131bf0901191204m54615f74qdd66b73542bc234c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <gl2pnt+4qlh@eGroups.com>

Sometimes the movie can be even better than the book. The Godfather
book was just another (slightly better that average) potboiler, but
the movie was one of the greatest of the 20'Th century. Much more
recently the book "The prestige" was pretty good but the movie (made
by the fellow who directed Batman and staring the actor who played
Batman) was absolutely superb, perhaps the best movie of the last 10
years.

The Potter movies certainly weren't better than the books, but they
were far better than we had any reason to suppose; they could have
easily been dreadful but they weren't, probably because JKR, if not
veto power at least had some control over them.  The movie makers know
that it would devastate the box-office if she said "the new Harry
Potter movie is terrible and I hope all my fans do not see it"; so
they want to keep her happy. 

 Eggplant     





From juli17 at aol.com  Mon Jan 19 22:00:19 2009
From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 17:00:19 -0500
Subject: What Should we do next?
In-Reply-To: <1232400963.576.57330.m46@yahoogroups.com>
References: <1232400963.576.57330.m46@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <8CB489873AA0E49-16C4-4A5@FWM-M44.sysops.aol.com>



> 
> > Julie:
> 
> > The Bourne films come to mind. Yes, the name of the
> character is 
> 
> the same
> 
> > and the very basic set up remains, but after that the
> books and the 
> 
> films 
> 
> > diverge almost completely. 
> 
Steve Van responds,

We couldn't disagree more. I am beginning to be of the opinion that you just hate movies. By no stretch of the imagination does one have to read the Bourne books in order to follow the Bourne Movies.

Steve Van


Julie:
Er, what? Your comment has nothing to do with my post. In fact, I HAVEN'T read
the Bourne novels. I expressed no opinion about either the novels or the movies,
I?simply noted that the two were completely divergent (different) from each other,
which I learned from?friends who have read the Bourne novels. (And, in fact, I
loved the movies.)

Regarding the HP movies specifically,?I signed off from the post partially quoted
above thusly:

"Julie, who also appreciates the feast for the eyes that the films have given 
me" 

Julie, who quite loves both books and movies, at least the good ones ;-)



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From s_ings at yahoo.com  Mon Jan 19 23:33:31 2009
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 15:33:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Movies v books WAS :Re: What should we do next?
In-Reply-To: <gl27el+vvbj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <663924.72787.qm@web63404.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

> Alla:
> 
> Have you seen Bourne TV series with Richard Chamberlain
> (spelling?), 
> Sheryll?
> 
> Now those series IMO are definitely **based** on the books.
> Sure they 
> made changes to storyline, but storyline and characters are
> still 
> very recognizable IMO. When I was watching the first movie,
> I kept 
> thinking how could they call it based on the books, when
> the main 
> villain is absent, if nothing else.
> 
> Oh well, as I said, I believe those movies stand perfectly
> well on 
> their own, I just wish they would at least put in
> *inspired* by 
> Bourne books.
> 
Sheryll:

I didn't even know there was a series! Wow, wonder how I missed that. :)

Wonder if I'll ever be able to get my hands on that to see. Hmm... have to check the database at work and see if it's available.

Sheryll


      __________________________________________________________________
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From s_ings at yahoo.com  Mon Jan 19 23:42:31 2009
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 15:42:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Books to movies to books was Re: What should we do next?
In-Reply-To: <gl2nh1+qrtk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <923412.25608.qm@web63403.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

>> Potioncat:
> > But making a movie for an audience who is already fans
> of
> > the book is harder.
> 
> Ali
> I think that's exactly the problem right there. For
> someone like
> Steve Van, who doesn't care to read the books, he can
> take the movies
> unto themselves, judging them against their own internal
> logic/story.
> Contrast that to most of us who see the movies and books
> existing in
> contrast to each other, we can't judge each medium by
> itself so we
> always find things wanting here or there. It's
> especially a big
> problem for HP because the books are now done but the
> movies aren't.
> We can nitpick about what was left out in one movie (versus
> it's
> corresponding book) but what if it comes back in another
> movie where
> it's more convenient for that medium to have it there?
> 
Sheryll:

Very true that those who've read books on which movies are based are a much harder audience to please. I like Ali's point, though, that things we may have missed so far in the movies could well make their way into those yet to be seen. Considering the time allotted by making DH as 2 films, it's entirely possible that some of us will be happier with the end results than we may anticipate. I'd count myself among those hoping that the added time for the last movie will allow for the addition of bits missed so far.


> Alla:
> 
> But the thing is, I don't do that. I mean, yes I  often
> do find 
> myself wishing that filmmakers would include storylines
> they would 
> cut out, sure, as fan of books it is indeed inevitable.
> However, once 
> I get over that fact, I do try to give movie it is fair
> chance and if 
> movie stands out on its own, I would still say it is a good
> movie. 
> The only thing I would insist on that this movie has
> nothing to do 
> with the book, you know?
> 
> I would never say the movie is bad simply because it does
> not reflect 
> the book in detail, except one thing ? I think if movie
> does not 
> reflect the book, while it claims it does, it is a lie on
> filmmakers' 
> behalf, unfair capitalizing on the name of the book (any
> book) that I 
> know and love.
> 
> I would call the movie bad, if I consider the acting bad,
> if I 
> consider the visuals bad, the storyline not watchable, etc,
> etc. 
> Again, Bourne movies, I certainly would not call them bad,
> just 
> having very little to do with the books.
> 
> Although having said that, yes, sure there were couple of
> times when 
> to me the story in the book was so much richer that maybe
> that 
> influenced me. But again, that was mainly disgust that the
> book was 
> butchered so badly and they still wanted fans of the books
> to come 
> and see - The Seeker comes to mind again. 

Sheryll:

Same here, I'm perfectly okay with declaring a movie good on its own merits. I think I'll almost always prefer the rich detail of books but have no problem enjoying a film for what it is if its well done.
> 
> Ali:
> <SNIP>
> As such, I've come
> up with a rule for myself: if I know of a movie coming out
> for a book
> I want to read, I shall hold off on reading the book. I did
> this for
> Twilight (and enjoyed the movie more for it) and will do it
> for Neil
> Gaiman's Coraline - don't know why but I can ignore
> the movie for the
> book but not the reverse.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Oh yeah, for me I try not to reread the book if movie is
> coming.
> 
Sheryll:

Count me in on this one as well. I really hate to see a movie soon after I've read the book. It makes it far too obvious what the differences are and allows me no end of nitpicking over what's been left out or what changes have been made. I'd rather read or re-read the book *after* seeing the movies so as to be able to get as much enjoyment from the film as possible without making comparisons. Much easier to appreciate the film for what it is that way.

Sheryll


      __________________________________________________________________
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From s_ings at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 20 00:13:10 2009
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 00:13:10 -0000
Subject: Belated Birthday Wishes for Melbaluna!
Message-ID: <gl34um+rpg5@eGroups.com>

*stares at the messy room and shakes head in disappointment*

What, you guys couldn't tidy up and start the next party while I was at 
work on the weekend? It's my job, you say? Okay, you've got me there. :)

*makes quick work of tidying up and redecorating the room with fresh 
streamers and balloons*

There, and I've even brought in snacks and drinks!

Saturday's birthday honouree was Melbaluna. Belated birthday owls can 
be sent care of this list or directly to: holmesclan2002 at yahoo.com

Don't forget the cake on the back table! I'll turn up the music and get 
this party started.

I hope your birthday was wonderful and brought much joy and happiness.

Happy Birthday, Melbaluna!

Sheryll the Birthday Elf




From kempermentor at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 20 00:57:26 2009
From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kempermentor)
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 00:57:26 -0000
Subject: Movies and books WAS: Re: What should we do next?
In-Reply-To: <308265.70985.qm@web59407.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <gl37hm+nnmq@eGroups.com>

> Steve Van:
> Sometimes the lack of words speaks volumes.

Kemper now:
And sometimes it speaks areas, sometimes a line, and at other times,
regrettably, a lonely dot.

Kemper




From vand195550 at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 20 01:07:30 2009
From: vand195550 at yahoo.com (Stephen Vandecasteele)
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 17:07:30 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Books to movies to books was Re: What should we do next?
Message-ID: <345591.58529.qm@web59409.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>





--- On Mon, 1/19/09, Sheryll Townsend <s_ings at yahoo.com> wrote:

> From: Sheryll Townsend <s_ings at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Books to movies to books was Re: What should we do next?
> To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
> Date: Monday, January 19, 2009, 6:42 PM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>     
>             >> Potioncat:
> 
> > > But making a movie for an audience who is already
> fans
> 
> > of
> 
> > > the book is harder.
> 
> > 
> 
> > Ali
> 
> > I think that's exactly the problem right there.
> For
> 
> > someone like
> 
> > Steve Van, who doesn't care to read the books, he
> can
> 
> > take the movies
> 
> > unto themselves, judging them against their own
> internal
> 
> > logic/story.
> 
> > Contrast that to most of us who see the movies and
> books
> 
> > existing in
> 
> > contrast to each other, we can't judge each medium
> by
> 
> > itself so we
> 
> > always find things wanting here or there. It's
> 
> > especially a big
> 
> > problem for HP because the books are now done but the
> 
> > movies aren't.
> 
> > We can nitpick about what was left out in one movie
> (versus
> 
> > it's
> 
> > corresponding book) but what if it comes back in
> another
> 
> > movie where
> 
> > it's more convenient for that medium to have it
> there?
> 
> > 
> 
> Sheryll:
> 
> 
> 
> Very true that those who've read books on which movies
> are based are a much harder audience to please. I like
> Ali's point, though, that things we may have missed so
> far in the movies could well make their way into those yet
> to be seen. Considering the time allotted by making DH as 2
> films, it's entirely possible that some of us will be
> happier with the end results than we may anticipate. I'd
> count myself among those hoping that the added time for the
> last movie will allow for the addition of bits missed so
> far.
> 
> 
> 
> > Alla:
> 
> > 
> 
> > But the thing is, I don't do that. I mean, yes I 
> often
> 
> > do find 
> 
> > myself wishing that filmmakers would include
> storylines
> 
> > they would 
> 
> > cut out, sure, as fan of books it is indeed
> inevitable.
> 
> > However, once 
> 
> > I get over that fact, I do try to give movie it is
> fair
> 
> > chance and if 
> 
> > movie stands out on its own, I would still say it is a
> good
> 
> > movie. 
> 
> > The only thing I would insist on that this movie has
> 
> > nothing to do 
> 
> > with the book, you know?
> 
> > 
> 
> > I would never say the movie is bad simply because it
> does
> 
> > not reflect 
> 
> > the book in detail, except one thing ? I think if
> movie
> 
> > does not 
> 
> > reflect the book, while it claims it does, it is a lie
> on
> 
> > filmmakers' 
> 
> > behalf, unfair capitalizing on the name of the book
> (any
> 
> > book) that I 
> 
> > know and love.
> 
> > 
> 
> > I would call the movie bad, if I consider the acting
> bad,
> 
> > if I 
> 
> > consider the visuals bad, the storyline not watchable,
> etc,
> 
> > etc. 
> 
> > Again, Bourne movies, I certainly would not call them
> bad,
> 
> > just 
> 
> > having very little to do with the books.
> 
> > 
> 
> > Although having said that, yes, sure there were couple
> of
> 
> > times when 
> 
> > to me the story in the book was so much richer that
> maybe
> 
> > that 
> 
> > influenced me. But again, that was mainly disgust that
> the
> 
> > book was 
> 
> > butchered so badly and they still wanted fans of the
> books
> 
> > to come 
> 
> > and see - The Seeker comes to mind again. 
> 
> 
> 
> Sheryll:
> 
> 
> 
> Same here, I'm perfectly okay with declaring a movie
> good on its own merits. I think I'll almost always
> prefer the rich detail of books but have no problem enjoying
> a film for what it is if its well done.
> 
> > 
> 
> > Ali:
> 
> > <SNIP>
> 
> > As such, I've come
> 
> > up with a rule for myself: if I know of a movie coming
> out
> 
> > for a book
> 
> > I want to read, I shall hold off on reading the book.
> I did
> 
> > this for
> 
> > Twilight (and enjoyed the movie more for it) and will
> do it
> 
> > for Neil
> 
> > Gaiman's Coraline - don't know why but I can
> ignore
> 
> > the movie for the
> 
> > book but not the reverse.
> 
> > 
> 
> > Alla:
> 
> > 
> 
> > Oh yeah, for me I try not to reread the book if movie
> is
> 
> > coming.
> 
> > 
> 
> Sheryll:
> 
> 
> 
> Count me in on this one as well. I really hate to see a
> movie soon after I've read the book. It makes it far too
> obvious what the differences are and allows me no end of
> nitpicking over what's been left out or what changes
> have been made. I'd rather read or re-read the book
> *after* seeing the movies so as to be able to get as much
> enjoyment from the film as possible without making
> comparisons. Much easier to appreciate the film for what it
> is that way.
> 
> 
> 
> Sheryll

SV Now,

There is a major mistake being made by the producers insofar as breaking the final movie into two parts. Look how succeccessful Return of the King was for Lord of the Rings.


      




From gav_fiji at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 20 01:28:35 2009
From: gav_fiji at yahoo.com (Goddlefrood)
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 01:28:35 -0000
Subject: Books to movies to books was Re: What should we do next?
In-Reply-To: <345591.58529.qm@web59409.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <gl39c3+njaj@eGroups.com>

> <vand195550 at yahoo.com>:
> There is a major mistake being made by the producers insofar 
> as breaking the final movie into two parts.

Goddlefrood:

It's all about the money I should say. Why end such a lucrative 
movie series at 7 when you can squeeze an extra film in and make 
several hundred million more dollars? (btw, that's a rhetorical 
question ;-))

> <vand195550 at yahoo.com>:
> Look how succeccessful (sic) Return of the King was for Lord of 
> the Rings.

Goddlefrood:

Except, Return of the King incorporated some elements of the book 
'The Two Towers'.





From vand195550 at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 20 01:30:29 2009
From: vand195550 at yahoo.com (Stephen Vandecasteele)
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 17:30:29 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Books to movies to books was Re: What should we do next?.
Message-ID: <236510.89223.qm@web59401.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>





--- On Mon, 1/19/09, eggplant107 <eggplant107 at hotmail.com> wrote:

> From: eggplant107 <eggplant107 at hotmail.com>
> Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Books to movies to books was Re: What should we do next?.
> To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
> Date: Monday, January 19, 2009, 4:01 PM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>     
>             Sometimes the movie can be even better than
> the book. The Godfather
> 
> book was just another (slightly better that average)
> potboiler, but
> 
> the movie was one of the greatest of the 20'Th century.
> Much more
> 
> recently the book "The prestige" was pretty good
> but the movie (made
> 
> by the fellow who directed Batman and staring the actor who
> played
> 
> Batman) was absolutely superb, perhaps the best movie of
> the last 10
> 
> years.
> 
> 
> 
> The Potter movies certainly weren't better than the
> books, but they
> 
> were far better than we had any reason to suppose; they
> could have
> 
> easily been dreadful but they weren't, probably because
> JKR, if not
> 
> veto power at least had some control over them.  The movie
> makers know
> 
> that it would devastate the box-office if she said
> "the new Harry
> 
> Potter movie is terrible and I hope all my fans do not see
> it"; so
> 
> they want to keep her happy. 
> 
> 
> 
> Eggplant     

SV Now

As good as JKR may or may may not be I find it difficult to believe that the books were as good as the movies. With the movies you can identify with one charactor or another in the sense that you can't by reading the books imo. 


      




From vand195550 at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 20 01:56:15 2009
From: vand195550 at yahoo.com (steve)
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 01:56:15 -0000
Subject: Bard of Avon
Message-ID: <gl3avv+mdlo@eGroups.com>

"No rogue should enjoy their ill gotten plunder for the simple reason 
that their victim is by chance a fool". Bard of Avon, William 
Shakespear.

Steve




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Tue Jan 20 02:33:32 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 02:33:32 -0000
Subject: Bard of Avon
In-Reply-To: <gl3avv+mdlo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gl3d5s+hqei@eGroups.com>

 "steve"  wrote:
>
> "No rogue should enjoy their ill gotten plunder for the simple reason 
> that their victim is by chance a fool". Bard of Avon, William 
> Shakespear.
>

Potioncat:
Ok, which play? And more importantly, how does it fit the post in 
question?




From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Tue Jan 20 03:04:33 2009
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 03:04:33 -0000
Subject: Books to movies to books was Re: What should we do next?.
In-Reply-To: <236510.89223.qm@web59401.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <gl3f01+fion@eGroups.com>

> SV Now
> 
> As good as JKR may or may may not be I find it difficult to believe 
that the books were as good as the movies. With the movies you can 
identify with one charactor or another in the sense that you can't by 
reading the books imo.

Magpie:
Yes, you can do that with the books too. Why wouldn't you be able to?

-m




From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Tue Jan 20 03:07:42 2009
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 03:07:42 -0000
Subject: Bard of Avon
In-Reply-To: <gl3d5s+hqei@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gl3f5u+rhef@eGroups.com>

>  "steve"  wrote:
> >
> > "No rogue should enjoy their ill gotten plunder for the simple 
reason 
> > that their victim is by chance a fool". Bard of Avon, William 
> > Shakespear.
> >
> 
> Potioncat:
> Ok, which play? And more importantly, how does it fit the post in 
> question?

Magpie:
I don't think it's actually Shakespeare.

-m




From md at exit-reality.com  Tue Jan 20 03:19:31 2009
From: md at exit-reality.com (Cabal)
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 22:19:31 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Books to movies to books was Re: What should we do next?.
In-Reply-To: <236510.89223.qm@web59401.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <236510.89223.qm@web59401.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <003001c97aad$e9dcc3a0$bd964ae0$@com>



-----Original Message-----
From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
[mailto:HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Stephen Vandecasteele
Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 8:30 PM
To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Books to movies to books was Re: What should
we do next?.

SV Now

As good as JKR may or may may not be I find it difficult to believe that the
books were as good as the movies. With the movies you can identify with one
charactor or another in the sense that you can't by reading the books imo. 


      


------------------------------------
As an English teacher, I have to say, I find that comment disturbing. 

If you haven't read the books, please refrain from wasting time commenting
on them as it makes absolutely no sense, imo.

The experience of reading a book, of becoming personally and deeply involved
with characters and stories in the sort of detail you simply can't have with
a film. A book allows you to see and interpret in a way a film never can,
you have the director, actor, screenwriter, editor, producer and composer
all in between you and the experience, all manipulating your experience.
With a book it's just you and the author. 

I don't care if you don't read the books, if you never read the books and if
you don't want to read the books but if you haven't read the books then you
can't possibly compare the books to the films.

md




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 20 03:54:29 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 03:54:29 -0000
Subject: Movies v books/Bourne TV series
In-Reply-To: <663924.72787.qm@web63404.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <gl3htl+llmj@eGroups.com>

> Sheryll:
> 
> I didn't even know there was a series! Wow, wonder how I missed 
that. :)
> 
> Wonder if I'll ever be able to get my hands on that to see. Hmm... 
have to check the database at work and see if it's available.

Alla:

Here is Amazon link to make your checking at work easier :-)

http://www.amazon.com/Bourne-Identity-TV-Miniseries/dp/B00006AG8D

And by the way everything that they say in advertising blurb on the 
page is IMO true. I thought that even if they simplified one of the 
storylines, Chamberlaine shows Bourne inner struggle much better that 
Damon ever did.

JMO,

Alla




From vand195550 at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 20 04:55:16 2009
From: vand195550 at yahoo.com (Stephen Vandecasteele)
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 20:55:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Bard of Avon
Message-ID: <790040.3650.qm@web59404.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>





--- On Mon, 1/19/09, sistermagpie <sistermagpie at earthlink.net> wrote:

> From: sistermagpie <sistermagpie at earthlink.net>
> Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Bard of Avon
> To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
> Date: Monday, January 19, 2009, 10:07 PM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>     
>             >  "steve"  wrote:
> 
> > >
> 
> > > "No rogue should enjoy their ill gotten
> plunder for the simple 
> 
> reason 
> 
> > > that their victim is by chance a fool". Bard
> of Avon, William 
> 
> > > Shakespear.
> 
> > >
> 
> > 
> 
> > Potioncat:
> 
> > Ok, which play? And more importantly, how does it fit
> the post in 
> 
> > question?
> 
> 
> 
> Magpie:
> 
> I don't think it's actually Shakespeare.
> 
> 
> 
> -m
Steve now,

To Magpie, it most certainly is Shakespear, that is of course unless you want to call Judge Rya Zobel of the 1st Circuit Court, District of Massachusetts a liar?

As to this holier than thou thing that Harry Potter book fans think, think mind you that they have over the movie goers the phrase fits perfectly. There are countless examples of where you have no advantage in reading the books prior to seeing the movies. The Godfather, Gone with the Wind, The Sound of Music, The Bourne Trilogy, etc,etc,etc. While you may love your precious books the movies are outstanding and I would venture to say you get as much of the storyline as from the books just in a different medium.

> 


      




From kempermentor at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 20 05:54:16 2009
From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kempermentor)
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 05:54:16 -0000
Subject: Bard of Avon
In-Reply-To: <790040.3650.qm@web59404.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <gl3ou8+isc7@eGroups.com>

> > Magpie:
> > I don't think it's actually Shakespeare.

> Steve:
> To Magpie, it most certainly is Shakespear, that is of course unless
you want to call Judge Rya Zobel of the 1st Circuit Court, District of
Massachusetts a liar?

Kemper now:
I did a quick search of some Shakespeare sites and couldn't find that
quote.  Maybe the Judge misquoted.


The Godfather.
Ugg!!!  I fell asleep while watching that movie.  I like what Peter
Griffin has to say about it: It insists upon itself.  I don't know
what that means, but it feels right.

Star Wars.
Not a book.  A comfort movie.  Never feel asleep.  I like what Obi-Wan
asks of Han: Who's more foolish: the fool or the fool who follows him?
 I don't think Obi-Wan first posed that question (mostly cause I can't
see Lucas as that original), but I don't think it was Shakespeare.

Kemper





From eggplant107 at hotmail.com  Tue Jan 20 07:25:31 2009
From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107)
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 07:25:31 -0000
Subject: Books to movies to books was Re: What should we do next?.
In-Reply-To: <236510.89223.qm@web59401.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <gl3u9b+73si@eGroups.com>

 Stephen Vandecasteele <vand195550 at ...> wrote:

> As good as JKR may or may may not be I find
> it difficult to believe that the books were
> as good as the movies. With the movies you 
> can identify with one charactor or another
> in the sense that you can't by reading the books imo.

As you have not actually read the books in question I fear your
opinion caries very little weight.

 Eggplant







From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Tue Jan 20 07:53:09 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 07:53:09 -0000
Subject: Books to movies to books was Re: What should we do next?.
In-Reply-To: <236510.89223.qm@web59401.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <gl3vt5+ijn5@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Stephen Vandecasteele <vand195550 at ...> 
wrote:

SV: 
> As good as JKR may or may may not be I find it difficult to believe that the books were 
as good as the movies. With the movies you can identify with one charactor or another in 
the sense that you can't by reading the books imo.

Geoff:
Two thoughts.

Since you have said on more than one occasion that you haven't 
read the books and have castigated those of us who have dared 
to compare them to the films, how can you make a sensible, 
reasonedcomparison of the two media forms?

Secondly, as an example, I first read LOTR over 50 years ago, 
a year or so after "Return of the King" was published. For a long 
time I read it once a year. From the books, I developed a very 
clear view of the characters and the landscape of Middle-Earth and 
approached the films very cautiously - especially after the disastrous 
Bakshi animated version in 1978. I have to say that I was greatly 
impressed by Peter Jackson's work and have felt at ease with both 
book and film.

Digressing to pick up a comment from Goddlefrood, the incorporation 
of parts of the second book into the last film was an enlightened act 
by Peter Jackson because it got the timeline right. Tolkein split the 
action of the second book and followed Frodo and Sam's story 
through to Frodo's capture at Kirith Ungol before returning to 
the others. Hence, it is easy to forget that his rescue by Sam 
was taking place as the Battle of the Pelennor Fields was approaching 
its climax.




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Tue Jan 20 13:40:59 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 13:40:59 -0000
Subject: Bard of Avon
In-Reply-To: <790040.3650.qm@web59404.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <gl4k9b+m7lr@eGroups.com>


> Steve now,
 
> As to this holier than thou thing that Harry Potter book fans 
think, think mind you that they have over the movie goers the phrase 
fits perfectly. There are countless examples of where you have no 
advantage in reading the books prior to seeing the movies. The 
Godfather, Gone with the Wind, The Sound of Music, The Bourne 
Trilogy, etc,etc,etc. While you may love your precious books the 
movies are outstanding and I would venture to say you get as much of 
the storyline as from the books just in a different medium.


Potioncat:
I don't know, Steve, I've read a lot of posts that point out movies 
that are better than the books they were founded on.

Speaking of the movies. One of my favorite scenes in SS/PS is the 
Troll battle in the girls' restroom. 

"Troll bogies! yech."




From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Tue Jan 20 14:31:34 2009
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 14:31:34 -0000
Subject: Bard of Avon
In-Reply-To: <790040.3650.qm@web59404.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <gl4n86+58ej@eGroups.com>

> > > Potioncat:
> > 
> > > Ok, which play? And more importantly, how does it fit
> > the post in 
> > 
> > > question?
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Magpie:
> > 
> > I don't think it's actually Shakespeare.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > -m
> Steve now,
> 
> To Magpie, it most certainly is Shakespear, that is of course 
unless you want to call Judge Rya Zobel of the 1st Circuit Court, 
District of Massachusetts a liar?

Magpie:
I stand corrected--I thought it was just a legal thing. What's it 
from?

-m




From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Tue Jan 20 14:32:30 2009
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 14:32:30 -0000
Subject: Bard of Avon
In-Reply-To: <gl3ou8+isc7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gl4n9u+j2fs@eGroups.com>

> Kemper now:
> I did a quick search of some Shakespeare sites and couldn't find that
> quote.  Maybe the Judge misquoted.
> 
> 
> The Godfather.
> Ugg!!!  I fell asleep while watching that movie.  I like what Peter
> Griffin has to say about it: It insists upon itself.  I don't know
> what that means, but it feels right.

Magpie:
LOL! That is one of my favorite moments from Family Guy. I can't think 
of the Godfather now without hearing Peter in my head.

-m




From md at exit-reality.com  Tue Jan 20 15:21:44 2009
From: md at exit-reality.com (Cabal)
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 10:21:44 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Bard of Avon
In-Reply-To: <790040.3650.qm@web59404.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <790040.3650.qm@web59404.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <00ef01c97b12$cf5064f0$6df12ed0$@com>



-----Original Message-----
From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
[mailto:HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Stephen Vandecasteele
Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 11:55 PM
To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Bard of Avon


To Magpie, it most certainly is Shakespear, that is of course unless you
want to call Judge Rya Zobel of the 1st Circuit Court, District of
Massachusetts a liar?

As to this holier than thou thing that Harry Potter book fans think, think
mind you that they have over the movie goers the phrase fits perfectly.
There are countless examples of where you have no advantage in reading the
books prior to seeing the movies. The Godfather, Gone with the Wind, The
Sound of Music, The Bourne Trilogy, etc,etc,etc. While you may love your
precious books the movies are outstanding and I would venture to say you get
as much of the storyline as from the books just in a different medium.

------------------------------------
IT IS NOT! 
' As stated by the Supreme Court of Vermont, in Chamberlin v. Fuller, 59 Vt
247, 9 Atl. 832:

"No rogue should enjoy his ill-gotten plunder for the simple reason that his
victim is by chance a fool."'

If you don't believe me http://www.opensourceshakespeare.org/ and search it,
also, try Google before arguing something you obviously do not know.

As for your " your precious books" comment, you know, to first make an ass
of yourself by insisting something is what it is not without verifying your
own "facts" then to be condescending and insulting on top of that...

Good Bye.

md






From n2fgc at arrl.net  Tue Jan 20 21:39:38 2009
From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force)
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 16:39:38 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Bard of Avon
In-Reply-To: <790040.3650.qm@web59404.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <790040.3650.qm@web59404.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <7B2FDFF1F6DD4355A1CFF796CFE35BB7@musiclee>

[Steve Van]:
| As to this holier than thou thing that Harry Potter book fans 
| think, think mind you that they have over the movie goers the 
| phrase fits perfectly. There are countless examples of where 
| you have no advantage in reading the books prior to seeing 
| the movies.

[Lee]:
Oh????  I take offense at the "Holier Than Thou" in your post.  First of
all, we do have some advantage in that we can draw a comparison between
books and movies.  Granted, the movies can stand on their own for those who
never read the books, but for those who either have before the movie or were
inspired to read after the movie, there is a comparison to be made.  This,
IMHO, is a source of some good conversation wherein we can, often times,
agree to disagree.  But to come off with calling those who have read the
books and compare them, etc., "Holier than thou," leaves me with a sad
impression of you.

[Steve Van]:
| While you may love 
| your precious books the movies are outstanding and I would 
| venture to say you get as much of the storyline as from the 
| books just in a different medium.

[Lee]:
Hmm--Trying to think objectively, one would get a fair idea of the story
through the movies.  I would say that most of the salient points are covered
in the movies.  There are, unfortunately, things in the movies which were
never in the books and distort the story line.

So, I will grant you that the movies would stand as good story-line movies.
But for those who discuss the movies with those who read the books, those
movie-lovers had better be prepared to hear an ear-full about the
differences, both major and minor, in the story-line, the things omitted by
the movies, the things put into the movies that are not a part of
book-canon, etc.

If you aren't prepared to discuss on those terms, and if putting down those
who love their "precious books," as you call them, because you won't read
them, you're in for a rough ride, again, IMHO.

I may end up on moderated status after this post, but that's fine with me.
I just want you, Steve Van, to remember that we Potter fans come in many
flavors; some of us are book-reading movie-goers; some of us are movie-going
book-readers; some only read while others are movie-goers.  Respect is the
order of the day.  No one of us is Holier Than Thou, and Thou, Sir, are not
Holier than anyone else. :)

Respectfully,

Lee S.




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Tue Jan 20 23:31:19 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 23:31:19 -0000
Subject: Bard of Avon
In-Reply-To: <790040.3650.qm@web59404.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <gl5ms7+aret@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Stephen Vandecasteele <vand195550 at ...> 
wrote:
 
> --- On Mon, 1/19/09, sistermagpie <sistermagpie at ...> wrote:

Magpie:
> > I don't think it's actually Shakespeare.

Steve:
> 
> To Magpie, it most certainly is Shakespear, that is of course unless you want to call 
Judge Rya Zobel of the 1st Circuit Court, District of Massachusetts a liar?

Geoff:
Instead of jumping up and down screaming "It is, it is!" in the hope 
that if you say it enough, we will believe you, two actions on your 
part would solve the problem.

(1) Give the source of this quote from Shakespeare. Play/Act/Scene.

(2) Confirm that the good judge DID indicate that this was a quote from 
Shakespeare and that you didn't just jump to conclusions that that was 
from where she got it. 

That would solve all the problems at one fell swoop.

In passing, I have checked a lot of source references and, also speaking 
as a UK native who did a lot o Shakespeare at school, I agree with Magpie 
and Kemper and the others - it ain't the Bard.




From md at exit-reality.com  Wed Jan 21 00:10:29 2009
From: md at exit-reality.com (Cabal)
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 19:10:29 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Bard of Avon
In-Reply-To: <gl5ms7+aret@eGroups.com>
References: <790040.3650.qm@web59404.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <gl5ms7+aret@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <004d01c97b5c$ab6f8530$024e8f90$@com>

This is not a debate, it's not Shakespeare.

http://www.opensourceshakespeare.org/

As I already posted, you can just enter the text, search and get ... no
results because it's not there.

Also you can Google it and find that it's a state supreme court quote --
again, as I already posted.

In short, not Shakespeare, end of story.

Good night everyone,

md




From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 21 00:15:27 2009
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 00:15:27 -0000
Subject: Books to movies to books was Re: What should we do next?.
In-Reply-To: <003001c97aad$e9dcc3a0$bd964ae0$@com>
Message-ID: <gl5pev+fre8@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Cabal" <md at ...> wrote:

> The experience of reading a book, of becoming personally 
> and deeply involved with characters and stories in the 
> sort of detail you simply can't have with a film. 


zanooda:

You are sooo right, nothing can stir your imagination better than a
well-written book :-)! Being a very character-oriented reader, I
especially love HP books because JKR's characters really come to life
for me. I know that the story is important too, but, if a writer
failed to create believable characters, I won't reread the book even
with the most interesting plot. 

I must say that JKR practically never failed me in this respect. Of
course, there are characters that I didn't get (James Potter, for
instance :-)), but mostly I see JKR's creations practically as real
people. That's why I can read and reread those books many times,
without getting bored - every time it's like visiting old friends :-).




From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 21 00:41:05 2009
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 00:41:05 -0000
Subject: Books to movies to books was Re: What should we do next?.
In-Reply-To: <gl3vt5+ijn5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gl5qv1+1eiu@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister"
<gbannister10 at ...> wrote:

> I first read LOTR over 50 years ago, a year or so after 
> "Return of the King" was published. For a long time I read 
> it once a year. From the books, I developed a very 
> clear view of the characters and the landscape of Middle-Earth and 
> approached the films very cautiously - especially after the 
> disastrous Bakshi animated version in 1978. I have to say that 
> I was greatly impressed by Peter Jackson's work and have felt at 
> ease with both book and film.


zanooda:

LOTR the movie made me read the book! Twice in my life I tried to read
LOTR, but couldn't get through the first pages - once when I was about
12 (it was in the same book with "The Hobbit" that I was reading
then), and once a few years later. 

Then I watched the first LOTR movie and the next day I was reading the
book past the first pages :-)! I liked the charadidn't wcters, I was
intrigued by the plot, and as a result I couldn't any longer wait for
the second film to find out what happens next - I needed to know "now"
:-). 

Besides, I had an argument with my husband about Gandalf, he was
saying Gandalf was coming back, and I was saying he wasn't - of course
I wanted to know who is right :-)! Anyway, I haven't become Tolkien's
fan (I think his language is not for foreigners :-)), but I'm glad I
finally read the book!





From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 21 00:44:17 2009
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 00:44:17 -0000
Subject: Books to movies to books was Re: What should we do next?.
In-Reply-To: <gl5qv1+1eiu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gl5r51+mdht@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "zanooda2" <zanooda2 at ...> wrote:

> I liked the charadidn't wcters


I don't know how *this* happened, but I meant "the characters" :-).


zanooda




From s_ings at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 21 00:45:42 2009
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 16:45:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Happy Birthday, Shaun!
Message-ID: <501089.67848.qm@web63406.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

*tidies up the decorations, adds some new streames and balloons, plumps the pillows in the comfy chairs*

Are you folks all partied out or are you good for another go? Yeah, that's what I thought - offer you all free food and drink and you're here in a flash! <vbg>

Today's birthday honouree is Shaun. Birthday owls can be sent care of this list or directly to: drednort at alphalink.com.au

Stop that pushing around the food and drink, something is likely to get spilled and I might not be right here to clean it up. And don't be eating all the cake before Shaun gets his piece!

You, with your finger in the icing. Cut that out! 

Shaun, I hope you day brings you good health, good friends and everything magical.

Happy Birthday, Shaun!

Sheryll the Birthday Elf


      __________________________________________________________________
Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail.  Click on Options in Mail and switch to New Mail today or register for free at http://mail.yahoo.ca



From s_ings at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 21 00:48:59 2009
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 16:48:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Movies v books/Bourne TV series
In-Reply-To: <gl3htl+llmj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <583184.84174.qm@web63404.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

> > Sheryll:
> > 
> > I didn't even know there was a series! Wow, wonder
> how I missed 
> that. :)
> > 
> > Wonder if I'll ever be able to get my hands on
> that to see. Hmm... 
> have to check the database at work and see if it's
> available.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Here is Amazon link to make your checking at work easier
> :-)
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Bourne-Identity-TV-Miniseries/dp/B00006AG8D
> 
> And by the way everything that they say in advertising
> blurb on the 
> page is IMO true. I thought that even if they simplified
> one of the 
> storylines, Chamberlaine shows Bourne inner struggle much
> better that 
> Damon ever did.
> 
> JMO,
> 
Sheryll:

Thanks for the link, Alla. I checked and it's is in our database. I already knew we didn't carry it (I can pretty tell off the top of my head if we have a movie in the store for rent - something that pisses off customers when I answer without looking things up), but it might be available for purchase. I'll have to check with our distributor when I do the next round of special orders.

Funny, I was talking to a customer about this today and he seconds your recommendation!

Sheryll


      __________________________________________________________________
Instant Messaging, free SMS, sharing photos and more... Try the new Yahoo! Canada Messenger at http://ca.beta.messenger.yahoo.com/



From n2fgc at arrl.net  Wed Jan 21 00:52:54 2009
From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force)
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 19:52:54 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Books to movies to books was Re: What should we do next?.
In-Reply-To: <gl5pev+fre8@eGroups.com>
References: <003001c97aad$e9dcc3a0$bd964ae0$@com> <gl5pev+fre8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <0C2AA8A4B3B84776A5368BDCBB860498@musiclee>

| --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Cabal" <md at ...> wrote:
| 
| > The experience of reading a book, of becoming personally 
| > and deeply involved with characters and stories in the 
| > sort of detail you simply can't have with a film. 
| 
| 
| zanooda:
| 
| You are sooo right, nothing can stir your imagination better than a
| well-written book :-)! Being a very character-oriented reader, I
| especially love HP books because JKR's characters really come to life
| for me. I know that the story is important too, but, if a writer
| failed to create believable characters, I won't reread the book even
| with the most interesting plot. 
| 
| I must say that JKR practically never failed me in this respect. Of
| course, there are characters that I didn't get (James Potter, for
| instance :-)), but mostly I see JKR's creations practically as real
| people. That's why I can read and reread those books many times,
| without getting bored - every time it's like visiting old friends :-).

[Lee]:
Here! Here!  And it's not just her characters but the way she gives even
minor characters a good bit of depth.  One example I can think of is
Professor Tofty in OOTP.  Now, how big or important a character is he? He's
not, but from how he was described and how he showed compassion and kindness
to Harry when he had his collapse in the Great Hall...those were things that
made him memorable to me and I remember saying to Art (My better half) that
I would have loved a teacher like Tofty. :-)  Even Wilkie Twycross was well
done.

Smiles,

Lee
(Who follows the three Ds: Desperation, Destructification,
and--and--and--uh--Oh, Whatever.) :-)

Do not walk behind me,    | Lee Storm
I may not care to lead;   | N2FGC
Do not walk before me,    | n2fgc at arrl.net (or)
I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at optonline.net
Walk beside me, and be my friend.




From s_ings at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 21 01:02:24 2009
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 17:02:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Books to movies to books was Re: What should we do next?.
In-Reply-To: <0C2AA8A4B3B84776A5368BDCBB860498@musiclee>
Message-ID: <813787.25152.qm@web63405.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

"Cabal" <md at ...> wrote:
> | 
> | > The experience of reading a book, of becoming
> personally 
> | > and deeply involved with characters and stories in
> the 
> | > sort of detail you simply can't have with a
> film. 
> | 
> | 
> | zanooda:
> | 
> | You are sooo right, nothing can stir your imagination
> better than a
> | well-written book :-)! Being a very character-oriented
> reader, I
> | especially love HP books because JKR's characters
> really come to life
> | for me. I know that the story is important too, but, if a
> writer
> | failed to create believable characters, I won't
> reread the book even
> | with the most interesting plot. 
> | 
> | I must say that JKR practically never failed me in this
> respect. Of
> | course, there are characters that I didn't get (James
> Potter, for
> | instance :-)), but mostly I see JKR's creations
> practically as real
> | people. That's why I can read and reread those books
> many times,
> | without getting bored - every time it's like visiting
> old friends :-).
> 
> [Lee]:
> Here! Here!  And it's not just her characters but the
> way she gives even
> minor characters a good bit of depth.  One example I can
> think of is
> Professor Tofty in OOTP.  Now, how big or important a
> character is he? He's
> not, but from how he was described and how he showed
> compassion and kindness
> to Harry when he had his collapse in the Great Hall...those
> were things that
> made him memorable to me and I remember saying to Art (My
> better half) that
> I would have loved a teacher like Tofty. :-)  Even Wilkie
> Twycross was well
> done.
> 
Sheryll:

I'm with you all on this one. And thank you to Cabal for stating it so perfectly, IMO!

There's something about well-written characters that just draw you to them. Sure, I've enjoyed movie characters but not to the same extent. The written word sparks our imagination far more than something visual can. 

One of the things I found interesting in viewing PS for the first time was discovering if anything appeared in the movies the way it had in my mind. The one thing that jumped out for me was Neville. Matt Lewis portrays Neville the way I see him in my head. The scene at the end of PS, where Neville gets his 10 points? That expression on Matt Lewis' face is exactly how I imagined Neville when I read the book!

I appreciate the rich details of the books that allow me to follow the characters and the world they inhabit.

Meh, I'm rambling. It's been a long day and I need dinner!

Sheryll


      __________________________________________________________________
Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now at
http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com.



From n2fgc at arrl.net  Wed Jan 21 01:33:13 2009
From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force)
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 20:33:13 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Happy Birthday, Shaun!
In-Reply-To: <501089.67848.qm@web63406.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
References: <501089.67848.qm@web63406.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9DEF244FFA7A4A2A9D609CB425F87966@musiclee>

Happy Birthday, Shaun!

And could you bring some of Oz's warmer weather to the party and give me a
box to take home?? :-)

Hope you have a wonderful day and year to come.

Peace,

Lee :-)




From lizzy1933 at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 21 02:23:00 2009
From: lizzy1933 at yahoo.com (lizzie_snape)
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 02:23:00 -0000
Subject: Bard of Avon
In-Reply-To: <gl4k9b+m7lr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gl60u4+eeo5@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at ...> 
wrote:
> 
> I don't know, Steve, I've read a lot of posts that point out movies 
> that are better than the books they were founded on.
> 
> Speaking of the movies. One of my favorite scenes in SS/PS is the 
> Troll battle in the girls' restroom. 
> 
> "Troll bogies! yech."
>

Funny, whilst reading the last few digests a voice in my head keeps 
whispering:

Troll in the dungeon, troll in the dungeon!

Can't imagine why . . .

lizzy snape




From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 21 04:26:09 2009
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 04:26:09 -0000
Subject: Books to movies to books was Re: What should we do next?.
In-Reply-To: <0C2AA8A4B3B84776A5368BDCBB860498@musiclee>
Message-ID: <gl6851+9hkr@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Lee Storm \(God Is The
Healing Force" <n2fgc at ...> wrote:

> And it's not just her characters but the way she gives even
> minor characters a good bit of depth.  One example I can think of is
> Professor Tofty in OOTP.  Now, how big or important a character is
> he? He's not, but from how he was described and how he showed 
> compassion and kindness to Harry when he had his collapse in the 
> Great Hall...


How about his outrage when he saw from the tower McGonagall being
Stunned :-)? I liked a lot both him and Professor Marchbanks :-). You
are right, JKR can make even minor characters memorable. Even Regulus,
who doesn't have any lines (being dead and all :-)), has enough
substance so that we can create an image of him in our heads.


zanooda




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 21 05:02:26 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 05:02:26 -0000
Subject: What should we do next?
In-Reply-To: <261.50409.qm@web59407.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <gl6a92+gee6@eGroups.com>

Steve Van wrote:
> 
> I don't hold the opinion that one must read the HP Books in order to
enjoy the movies. As Magpie put and did so well I do believe the
movies stand on their own as far as entertainment goes for me.
> 
> Steve who loves movies.
>
Carol responds:

But the question now is whether we should keep the movie and book
lists separate. The main list, which is much larger than the Movie
list, is about the books. Even if we allowed Movie posts on Main, it
would still mostly be about the books, and I don't think, given your
determination not to read the books, that you'd feel at home there.
And there may be others who prefer the films to the books. For that
reason, I think that we should keep both lists. (And, of course, OT
chatter, where we can discuss anything from puns to Barack Obama's
inaugruation, without even bothering to tie it in with the HP world.

BTW, the books are also entertainment, at least for those of us who
have read and enjoyed them. So are the lists. That's what it's all
about, entertaining ourselves with these discussions (and, sometimes,
exercising our mental muscles with discussions over elements of the
books or films that we interpret differently.

Carol, who likes all the lists and doesn't want to see them merged




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 21 05:58:08 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 05:58:08 -0000
Subject: Bard of Avon
In-Reply-To: <00ef01c97b12$cf5064f0$6df12ed0$@com>
Message-ID: <gl6dhg+rlf6@eGroups.com>

Steve V. wrote:
> To Magpie, it most certainly is Shakespear, that is of course unless
you want to call Judge Rya Zobel of the 1st Circuit Court, District of
Massachusetts a liar? <snip>

Cabal responded:
> IT IS NOT! 
> ' As stated by the Supreme Court of Vermont, in Chamberlin v.
Fuller, 59 Vt 247, 9 Atl. 832:
> 
> "No rogue should enjoy his ill-gotten plunder for the simple reason
that his victim is by chance a fool."' <snip>

Carol adds:

It seems that Cabal is correct. I found the same information:

"In Strand v. Griffith, 97 F. 854, 38 C.C.A. 444, the learned and
upright Henry C. Caldwell said:

"'There is no rule of law which requires men in their business
transactions to act upon the presumption that all men are knaves and
liars, and which declares them guilty of negligence, and refuses them
redress, whenever they fail to act on that presumption. The fraudulent
vendor cannot escape from liability by asking the law to applaud his
fraud and condemn his victim for his credulity. 'No rogue should enjoy
his ill-gotten plunder for the simple reason that his victim is by
chance a fool.' Chamberlin v. Fuller, 59 Vt. 247, 9 A. 832."

Here's a link to the source:

http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/DeliverDocument.asp?CiteID=9328

Great quote, but apparently it isn't Shakespeare. I did not, I
confess, look up Rya Zobel, so I have no idea what she has to say on
the matter.

Carol, noting that disagreeing with or questioning a statement is not
the same as calling the person who made the statement a liar and
there's no need for anyone to get hot under the collar






From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 21 06:08:04 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 06:08:04 -0000
Subject: Books to movies to books was Re: What should we do next?.
In-Reply-To: <gl5r51+mdht@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gl6e44+se89@eGroups.com>

zanoodawrote:
> 
> > I liked the charadidn't wcters
> 
> 
> I don't know how *this* happened, but I meant "the characters" :-).
> 
> 
> zanooda
>
Carol responds:

I wondidn't wcdered. :-)

If you didn't get that, I mean, I wondered what happened (but I
figured it out--"didn't" somehow got into the middle of "characters."
It's the kind of thing that happens to me when I'm using Word 2007).

Carol, not bothering to change the subject line for this silly little post




From n2fgc at arrl.net  Wed Jan 21 07:10:16 2009
From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force)
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 02:10:16 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Books to movies to books was Re: What should we do next?.
In-Reply-To: <gl6851+9hkr@eGroups.com>
References: <0C2AA8A4B3B84776A5368BDCBB860498@musiclee> <gl6851+9hkr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <960EFB2A6C164A96BA05653F14FD3B70@musiclee>

[I wrote]:
| > And it's not just her characters but the way she gives even
| > minor characters a good bit of depth.  One example I can think of is
| > Professor Tofty in OOTP.  Now, how big or important a character is
| > he? He's not, but from how he was described and how he showed 
| > compassion and kindness to Harry when he had his collapse in the 
| > Great Hall...
| 
[Zanooda]:
| How about his outrage when he saw from the tower McGonagall being
| Stunned :-)?

[Lee here]:
"Galloping Gargoyles! Outrageous!" :-)  Yes, indeedy.

[Zanooda again]:
| I liked a lot both him and Professor Marchbanks :-). You
| are right, JKR can make even minor characters memorable. Even Regulus,
| who doesn't have any lines (being dead and all :-)), has enough
| substance so that we can create an image of him in our heads.

[Lee]:
Yup, and the recurring Madam Marsh who, as much as she hates the Knight Bus,
has taken both night and day trips on it (POA & OOTP).  Even some of the
portrait people have substance.

Smile,

Lee (Who loves her characters!)




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 21 17:29:51 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 17:29:51 -0000
Subject: Postscript to my post on the main list
Message-ID: <gl7m2f+r4j9@eGroups.com>

I forgot to mention my source for the Scorpio myth I quoted at length
on the main list. Rather than use up a post from my main list quota
for the day, I'll provide it here:

http://chandra.harvard.edu/photo/constellations/scorpius.html

It seems like a reputable source and there's lots of interesting
information for those interested in mythology or astrology, especially
if you happen to be a Scorpio <winks at Potioncat> or sympathetic
toward little Scorpius Malfoy.

Carol, who has the windows open today because it's so warm in Tucson!




From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 22 18:15:56 2009
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 18:15:56 -0000
Subject: Bard of Avon
In-Reply-To: <004d01c97b5c$ab6f8530$024e8f90$@com>
Message-ID: <glad4s+s73g@eGroups.com>

---  "Cabal" <md at ...> wrote:
>
> This is not a debate, it's not Shakespeare.
> 
> http://www.opensourceshakespeare.org/
> 
> As I already posted, you can just enter the text, search and
> get ... no results because it's not there.
> 
> Also you can Google it and find that it's a state supreme 
> court quote -- again, as I already posted.
> 
> In short, not Shakespeare, end of story.
> 
> Good night everyone,
> 
> md
>

bboyminn:

I too did a Google search for short phrases from the quote
and got lots of case law, primarily 'Chamberlain v Fuller
1887', but no reference to Shakespeare. 

However, this could, though not likely, be something 
Shakespeare said in his personal life rather than one of
his plays. That would make it a very obscure reference that
would probably only be found in Shakespeare's biography. 

Still, if Google can't make the association, it has to be
a very thin association at best.

Steve/bboyminn




From md at exit-reality.com  Thu Jan 22 18:37:38 2009
From: md at exit-reality.com (Cabal)
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 13:37:38 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Bard of Avon
In-Reply-To: <glad4s+s73g@eGroups.com>
References: <004d01c97b5c$ab6f8530$024e8f90$@com> <glad4s+s73g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <002e01c97cc0$81793860$846ba920$@com>



-----Original Message-----
From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
[mailto:HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Steve
Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 1:16 PM
To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Bard of Avon


Still, if Google can't make the association, it has to be
a very thin association at best.

Steve/bboyminn


------------------------------------
I've studied and taught Shakespeare, it doesn't even sound like him to me.
None of my research in the past has ever turned that up (including
biographical -- I do have an English degree ;-) nor do any websites
collecting anything he ever wrote down.

I don't care if someone makes a mistake, but to defend so adamantly
something so easily proven wrong just drove me nuts.

md 




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Thu Jan 22 23:27:30 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 23:27:30 -0000
Subject: Bard of Avon
In-Reply-To: <002e01c97cc0$81793860$846ba920$@com>
Message-ID: <glavd2+jm1o@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Cabal" <md at ...> wrote:

Steve/bboyminn:
> Still, if Google can't make the association, it has to be
> a very thin association at best.

md:
> I've studied and taught Shakespeare, it doesn't even sound like him to me.
> None of my research in the past has ever turned that up (including
> biographical -- I do have an English degree ;-) nor do any websites
> collecting anything he ever wrote down.
> 
> I don't care if someone makes a mistake, but to defend so adamantly
> something so easily proven wrong just drove me nuts.

Geoff:
Agreed. Shakespeare wrote in blank verse. This just wouldn't fit. 

Also, I acquired the following titbit of information from one of the 
etymology sources on line:

"Plunder" A word acquired by English via the Thirty Years War and 
applied in native use after the outbreak of the Civil War in 1642. 
Shakespeare died in 1616. Conclusions?







From stevejjen at earthlink.net  Thu Jan 22 23:37:10 2009
From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese)
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 23:37:10 -0000
Subject: Happy Birthday, Shaun!
In-Reply-To: <501089.67848.qm@web63406.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <glavv6+r1kr@eGroups.com>

> 
> You, with your finger in the icing. Cut that out! 

"Whaaaa...?"  Jen hastily hides her hands behind her back, flashing an 
innocent look at Sheryll.

> Shaun, I hope you day brings you good health, good friends and 
everything magical.
> 
> Happy Birthday, Shaun!


Jen: That's a nice wish, Sheryll - I second that.  Happy Birthday, 
Shaun!  

Jen, who only seems to make it around for the cake these days.




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri Jan 23 04:17:58 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 04:17:58 -0000
Subject: Bard of Avon
In-Reply-To: <glavd2+jm1o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <glbgdm+e4hq@eGroups.com>

Geoff wrote:
> Agreed. Shakespeare wrote in blank verse. <snip>

Carol responds:

Well, usually. Of course, he also wrote sonnets that rhymed ABAB CDCD
EFEF GG and other poems such as "the Phoenix and the Turtle," whose
rhyme scheme I don't remember (was it heroic couplets?). Some of the
dialogue in the various plays is in prose, especially the comic lines.

But, yes. Most of the great lines that we remember are in blank verse
(that's unrhymed iambic pentameter for anyone who doesn't already know).

I remember reading a novel as a little girl in which the child heroine
shows her aunt a poem she's written and gets an unfavorable reaction.
The girl says, "But it's blank verse!" to which the aunt replies
dryly, "Yes. Very blank." I should read the book again considering
that I still remember that scene after all these years. I think it was
"Emily of New Moon." Has anyone else ever read that book?

Carol, wishing that kids these days could get lost in books the way
she used to








From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Fri Jan 23 15:13:36 2009
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 15:13:36 -0000
Subject: Bard of Avon
In-Reply-To: <glbgdm+e4hq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <glcmr0+3gq5@eGroups.com>


> Carol responds:

> I remember reading a novel as a little girl in which the child heroine
> shows her aunt a poem she's written and gets an unfavorable reaction.
> The girl says, "But it's blank verse!" to which the aunt replies
> dryly, "Yes. Very blank." I should read the book again considering
> that I still remember that scene after all these years. I think it was
> "Emily of New Moon." Has anyone else ever read that book?

Magpie:
I have--though I don't remember it very well.


> Carol, wishing that kids these days could get lost in books the way
> she used to

Magpie:
I'm sure they do!

-m





From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Fri Jan 23 15:32:40 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 15:32:40 -0000
Subject: Kids and books WAS: Re: Bard of Avon
In-Reply-To: <glcmr0+3gq5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <glcnuo+imse@eGroups.com>

> > Carol, wishing that kids these days could get lost in books the 
way
> > she used to
> 
> Magpie:
> I'm sure they do!
> 
> -m
>

Alla:

I think it all depends on the parents, if they make sure to show the 
kid the beauty of the books since very early age, then child will be 
reading, even if she will be surrounded by computer, tv, etc.

I remember being at the hairdresser and one of them complained that 
kids only want to play computer games these days and I just could not 
be quiet, LOL.

Um, we had been reading to my niece since she was four or five months 
old, constantly. She is almost four now and she LOVES books and it is 
just not going to go away, me thinks. Of course my brother and SIL 
are also in no hurry whatsoever to buy for her Nintendo and staff 
like that, which from what I heard gets addictive and fast, heh, but 
she watches TV (cartoons mainly of course) and still prefers books.

I think it is all up to parents, IMO.




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Fri Jan 23 15:52:31 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 15:52:31 -0000
Subject: Kids and books WAS: Re: Bard of Avon
In-Reply-To: <glcnuo+imse@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <glcp3v+oneb@eGroups.com>

 
> Alla:
> 
> I think it all depends on the parents, if they make sure to show 
the 
> kid the beauty of the books since very early age, then child will 
be 
> reading, even if she will be surrounded by computer, tv, etc.


Potioncat:
It's not that easy. I think we are wired to enjoy reading or not. We 
read constantly to our 3 kids. Some books were such favorites that we 
replaced them several times. We always made books accessible and fun. 
We are readers ourselves, and our kids saw us reading all the time.

However, my oldest quit reading for pleasure at about 4th grade, and 
I can't say my daughter ever enjoyed it. My son continued to like to 
be read to for a while beyond 4th. My daughter had a hard time 
concentrating for long times. Both of those 2 have ADHD. My daughter 
was also evaluated for reading ability at her request. She shows some 
impairment along the lines of an ADHD brain. 

My 3rd child loves to read! He has a greater learning disability than 
the older two, but has read himself to grade level. (I mean, I think 
he chose to read so much, that he exercised his brain to 
improve...maybe?) He can also listen better, for longer periods of 
time, and for a while we would get audio-books for him before he was 
reading at grade level. Well, actually, we still do.

So, I would not put it on the parents if a child is not a reader. So 
often folks get into a battle over Nature vrs Nurture, but I think 
how a kid turns out is a combination of Nature and Nurture.




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri Jan 23 17:55:32 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 17:55:32 -0000
Subject: Kids and books WAS: Re: Bard of Avon
In-Reply-To: <glcp3v+oneb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gld0ak+r4mq@eGroups.com>

Potioncat wrote:
> It's not that easy. I think we are wired to enjoy reading or not. <snip>

> So, I would not put it on the parents if a child is not a reader. So
often folks get into a battle over Nature vrs Nurture, but I think how
a kid turns out is a combination of Nature and Nurture.

Carol responds:

I agree. My sister and I, just fourteen months apart, had a virtually
identical upbringing, went to the same schools, and had many of the
same teachers. My parents gave us storybooks, but I can't remember
being read to, only curling up with "chapter books" like the Bobbsey
Twins books and wanting more, more, more. I loved going to the
library, finding a series that I loved, finishing the series, and
finding a new one. When I'd read every kids' book I could find, I went
to the new historical novels with the beautiful, shiny covers and read
them. I also read every book on my parents' bookshelves, some ot them
so many times that my parents became concerned. I read the newspaper
and the magazines my parents subscribed to cover to cover. While I was
indoors reading (or writing novels that I kept under my pillow and
didn't want anyone to read), my sister was outside riding her bike or
playing softball with the neighborhood boys. She was younger, but I
learned to ride *her* bike when I was nine!) My brother had the whole
collection of Oz books. I don't know whether he ever read them, but I
read them all.

Some of it is nurture and example--and, of course, the books have to
be available--but a lot of it is the child's own personality and
inclinations.

These days, of course, kids have the temptation not only of TV but of
computers. Everything has to be "fun" and "hands on." We played with
Tinker Toys and modeling clay and dolls that cried or said "Mma" if
they said anything at all. We also played family games. We had to
entertain ourselves (when we weren't doing homework). These days, the
kids I know are bored if they can't play video games or watch TV or
play a DVD. Sure, they can take a walk, but they aren't interested in
puzzles, board games, or books. Part of it is the temptation of
technology, part of it is the example of parents, part of it is peer
pressure, part of it, maybe, is the schools. All I know is that, aside
from my two-year-old grandniece, only one kid of my acquaintance (my
seventeen-year-old niece) is a book lover. And even she gave up on the
Harry Potter books a few years ago after the third or fourth one. Why,
I don't know. she just said that she wasn't interested. (Then, again,
she was on the softball team and in both band and orchestra, so maybe
she didn't have time to read for fun!)

Carol, who thinks that computers have also had a corrosive effect on
spelling and handwriting (and calculators on the ability to do simple
math)





From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Fri Jan 23 18:38:49 2009
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 18:38:49 -0000
Subject: Eighth Grade Education circa - 1895  - - (long)
Message-ID: <gld2rp+iur7@eGroups.com>

This is one of those emails that is bouncing around from person 
to person, but I thought it was interesting. This is an actual
8th grade final exam taken from the historical archives in 
Kansas.

I thought Orthography was particularly interesting in that I've
never heard of Orthography before, and if I had to have guessed,
I would have said it was the study of birds.

As you can see, time allotted for the test was FIVE HOURS. 

Finally, remember this is 8th grade.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

What it took to get an 8th grade education in 1895...

Remember when grandparents and great-grandparents stated that they
only had an 8th grade education? Well, check this out. Could any of us
have passed the 8th grade in 1895? 

This is the eighth-grade final exam from 1895 in  Salina ,  Kansas , 
USA . It was taken from the original document on file at the  Smokey 
Valley Genealogical Society and Library in  Salina , and reprinted by
the  Salina Journal. 
 
8th Grade Final Exam:  Salina ,  KS - 1895 
------------------------------------------

- Grammar (Time, one hour)-
1. Give nine rules for the use of capital letters.
2. Name the parts of speech and define those that have no modifications. 
3. Define verse, stanza and paragraph
4. What are the principal parts of a verb? Give principal parts of
'lie,''play,' and 'run.' 
5. Define case; illustrate each case.
6 What is punctuation? Give rules for principal marks of punctuation. 
7 - 10. Write a composition of about 150 words and show therein that
you understand the practical use of the rules of grammar.

- Arithmetic (Time,1 hour 15 minutes)-
1. Name and define the Fundamental Rules of Arithmetic.
2. A wagon box is 2 ft. Deep, 10 feet long, and 3 ft. Wide. How many
bushels of wheat will it hold? 
3. If a load of wheat weighs 3,942 lbs., what is it worth at
50cts/bushel, deducting 1,050 lbs. For tare? 
4. District No 33 has a valuation of $35,000. What is the necessary
levy to carry on a school seven months at $50 per month, and have $104
for incidentals? 
5. Find the cost of 6,720 lbs. Coal at $6.00 per ton.
6. Find the interest of $512.60 for 8 months and 18 days at 7 percent. 
7. What is the cost of 40 boards 12 inches wide and 16 ft.. Long at
$20 per metre?
8. Find bank discount on $300 for 90 days (no grace) at 10 percent.
9. What is the cost of a square farm at $15 per acre, the distance of
which is 640 rods? 
10. Write a Bank Check, a Promissory Note, and a Receipt

- U.S. History (Time, 45 minutes)-
1. Give the epochs into which U.S. History is divided
2. Give an account of the discovery of  America by  Columbus  
3. Relate the causes and results of the Revolutionary War.
4. Show the territorial growth of the  United States  
5. Tell what you can of the history of  Kansas  
6. Describe three of the most prominent battles of the Rebellion. 
7. Who were the following: Morse, Whitney,  Fulton ,  Bell ,  Lincoln
, Penn, and Howe?
8. Name events connected with the following dates: 1607, 1620, 1800,
1849, 1865. 

- Orthography (Time, one hour) -
[Do we even know what this is??]
1. What is meant by the following: alphabet, phonetic, orthography,
etymology, syllabication
2. What are elementary sounds? How classified?
3. What are the following, and give examples of each: trigraph,
subvocals, diphthong, cognate letters, linguals 
4. Give four substitutes for caret 'u.' (HUH?)
5. Give two rules for spelling words with final 'e.' Name two
exceptions under each rule.
6. Give two uses of silent letters in spelling. Illustrate each. 
7. Define the following prefixes and use in connection with a word:
bi, dis-mis, pre, semi, post, non, inter, mono, sup.
8. Mark diacritically and divide into syllables the following, and
name the sign that indicates the sound: card, ball, mercy, sir, odd,
cell, rise, blood, fare, last. 
9. Use the following correctly in sentences: cite, site, sight, fane,
fain, feign, vane , vain, vein, raze, raise, rays.
10. Write 10 words frequently mispronounced and indicate pronunciation
by use of diacritical marks and by syllabication. 

- Geography (Time, one hour)-
1. What is climate? Upon what does climate depend?
2. How do you account for the extremes of climate in Kansas ? 
3. Of what use are rivers? Of what use is the ocean?
4. Describe the mountains of North America  
5. Name and describe the following:  Monrovia ,  Odessa ,  Denver , 
Manitoba ,  Hecla ,  Yukon , St. Helena, Juan Fernandez, Aspinwall and
 Orinoco  
6. Name and locate the principal trade centers of the U.S. Name all
the republics of  Europe and give the capital of each.
8. Why is the  Atlantic  Coast colder than the Pacific in the same
latitude? 
9. Describe the process by which the water of the ocean returns to the
sources of rivers.
10. Describe the movements of the earth. Give the inclination of the
earth. 

Notice that the exam took FIVE HOURS to complete.

Gives the saying 'he only had an 8th grade education' a whole new
meaning, doesn't it?!   

NO, I don't have the answers!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Sorry, this post is kind of long, but, come on, that's a tough
test.

Steve/bboyminn





From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Fri Jan 23 18:56:17 2009
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 18:56:17 -0000
Subject: Kids and books WAS: Re: Bard of Avon
In-Reply-To: <gld0ak+r4mq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gld3sh+sn1s@eGroups.com>

> Carol responds:
Part of it is the temptation of
> technology, part of it is the example of parents, part of it is peer
> pressure, part of it, maybe, is the schools. All I know is that, aside
> from my two-year-old grandniece, only one kid of my acquaintance (my
> seventeen-year-old niece) is a book lover. And even she gave up on the
> Harry Potter books a few years ago after the third or fourth one. Why,
> I don't know. she just said that she wasn't interested. (Then, again,
> she was on the softball team and in both band and orchestra, so maybe
> she didn't have time to read for fun!)

Magpie:
True, but in the past not all kids were interested in reading either. 
For years there's been a perception that turning off the TV will cause 
a kid to pick up a book, for instance, but the kids who would do that 
would probably do it anyway. The nerd stereotype usually includes 
computer games, books and TV.

I used to work in a children's bookstore so I knew lots of kids who 
were avid readers, luckily. 

-m




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Fri Jan 23 20:24:28 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 20:24:28 -0000
Subject: Kids and books WAS: Re: Bard of Avon
In-Reply-To: <glcp3v+oneb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gld91s+jbkv@eGroups.com>

> Potioncat:
<HUGE SNIP>
> So, I would not put it on the parents if a child is not a reader. 
So 
> often folks get into a battle over Nature vrs Nurture, but I think 
> how a kid turns out is a combination of Nature and Nurture.

Alla:

If parents tried to make child love the books and it just did not 
work out, sure I would not put it on parents ( hm, not the phrase I 
would use I guess, not like parents are obligated to do that. I mean 
I feel so, but certainly not everybody).

However, IMO if parents did not give child a chance to learn that 
books are cool, then I would say that it is largely because of 
parents.

Because see, our parents and grandparents constantly read to me and 
my brother too. My grandmother started teaching me to read when I was 
three and from the stories by the time I was four I read every 
newspaper which I saw on the table ( the slogans in big letters of 
course lol not the whole newspaper).

My brother however would not start reading till he was five and well, 
did not really care for it, he would much rather run around, etc.

But see, he came around in few years and I think started reading for 
pleasure since he was, nine or ten and does so ever since, non stop.

Because even when he wanted to just run as so many boys do (and I 
wish I would do more lol), he still liked to listen to the books, was 
just too lazy to spend time on that.

And eventually he came around heh.

JMO,

Alla




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Fri Jan 23 20:26:18 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 20:26:18 -0000
Subject: Bard of Avon
In-Reply-To: <glbgdm+e4hq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gld95a+6aiq@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:
>
> Geoff wrote:
> > Agreed. Shakespeare wrote in blank verse. <snip>
> 
> Carol responds:
> 
> Well, usually. Of course, he also wrote sonnets that rhymed ABAB CDCD
> EFEF GG and other poems such as "the Phoenix and the Turtle," whose
> rhyme scheme I don't remember (was it heroic couplets?). Some of the
> dialogue in the various plays is in prose, especially the comic lines.
> 
> But, yes. Most of the great lines that we remember are in blank verse
> (that's unrhymed iambic pentameter for anyone who doesn't already know).

Geoff:
But the chief point I was making was that the quote that Steve Van casually 
tossed into the group didn't look as if it would fit any metrical pattern at all. 
Plus the dates I quoted made it rather unlikely that our friend in Stratford 
(Warwickshire that is - not the East End of London!) was the author.




From kempermentor at yahoo.com  Fri Jan 23 22:23:08 2009
From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kempermentor)
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 22:23:08 -0000
Subject: Eighth Grade Education circa - 1895  - - (long)
In-Reply-To: <gld2rp+iur7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gldg0c+nq1t@eGroups.com>

> Steve:
> This is one of those emails that is bouncing around from person 
> to person, but I thought it was interesting. This is an actual
> 8th grade final exam taken from the historical archives in 
> Kansas.
> 
> I thought Orthography was particularly interesting in that I've
> never heard of Orthography before, and if I had to have guessed,
> I would have said it was the study of birds.
> 
> As you can see, time allotted for the test was FIVE HOURS. 
> 
> Finally, remember this is 8th grade. ...snip...


Kemper now:
I'm not really impressed by the test.  I had to learn similar things
except for orthography, which I would've said was bone-pictures but
seems more akin to linguistics (sort of), as well as Kansas... though
I had an ear and eye full of Nevada, the most vile state in the Union.
 Plus, I had to learn life science, world history, algebra, intro to
lit and P.E. ...Okay, I didn't learn PE, but I spent time resenting
it.  I could've been reading!

Kemper







From wildirishrose at fiber.net  Sat Jan 24 00:35:54 2009
From: wildirishrose at fiber.net (wildirishrose01us)
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 00:35:54 -0000
Subject: Eighth Grade Education circa - 1895  - - (long)
In-Reply-To: <gld2rp+iur7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gldnpa+a8ha@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <bboyminn at ...> wrote:
>
> This is one of those emails that is bouncing around from person 
> to person, but I thought it was interesting. This is an actual
> 8th grade final exam taken from the historical archives in 
> Kansas.
> 
> I thought Orthography was particularly interesting in that I've
> never heard of Orthography before, and if I had to have guessed,
> I would have said it was the study of birds.
> 
> As you can see, time allotted for the test was FIVE HOURS. 
> 
> Finally, remember this is 8th grade.
> 
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> 
> What it took to get an 8th grade education in 1895...
> 
> Remember when grandparents and great-grandparents stated that they
> only had an 8th grade education? Well, check this out. Could any of 
us
> have passed the 8th grade in 1895? 
> 
> This is the eighth-grade final exam from 1895 in  Salina ,  
Kansas , 
> USA . It was taken from the original document on file at the  
Smokey 
> Valley Genealogical Society and Library in  Salina , and reprinted 
by
> the  Salina Journal. 
>  
> 8th Grade Final Exam:  Salina ,  KS - 1895 
> ------------------------------------------
> 
> - Grammar (Time, one hour)-
> 1. Give nine rules for the use of capital letters.
> 2. Name the parts of speech and define those that have no 
modifications. 
> 3. Define verse, stanza and paragraph
> 4. What are the principal parts of a verb? Give principal parts of
> 'lie,''play,' and 'run.' 
> 5. Define case; illustrate each case.
> 6 What is punctuation? Give rules for principal marks of 
punctuation. 
> 7 - 10. Write a composition of about 150 words and show therein that
> you understand the practical use of the rules of grammar.
> 
> - Arithmetic (Time,1 hour 15 minutes)-
> 1. Name and define the Fundamental Rules of Arithmetic.
> 2. A wagon box is 2 ft. Deep, 10 feet long, and 3 ft. Wide. How many
> bushels of wheat will it hold? 
> 3. If a load of wheat weighs 3,942 lbs., what is it worth at
> 50cts/bushel, deducting 1,050 lbs. For tare? 
> 4. District No 33 has a valuation of $35,000. What is the necessary
> levy to carry on a school seven months at $50 per month, and have 
$104
> for incidentals? 
> 5. Find the cost of 6,720 lbs. Coal at $6.00 per ton.
> 6. Find the interest of $512.60 for 8 months and 18 days at 7 
percent. 
> 7. What is the cost of 40 boards 12 inches wide and 16 ft.. Long at
> $20 per metre?
> 8. Find bank discount on $300 for 90 days (no grace) at 10 percent.
> 9. What is the cost of a square farm at $15 per acre, the distance 
of
> which is 640 rods? 
> 10. Write a Bank Check, a Promissory Note, and a Receipt
> 
> - U.S. History (Time, 45 minutes)-
> 1. Give the epochs into which U.S. History is divided
> 2. Give an account of the discovery of  America by  Columbus  
> 3. Relate the causes and results of the Revolutionary War.
> 4. Show the territorial growth of the  United States  
> 5. Tell what you can of the history of  Kansas  
> 6. Describe three of the most prominent battles of the Rebellion. 
> 7. Who were the following: Morse, Whitney,  Fulton ,  Bell ,  
Lincoln
> , Penn, and Howe?
> 8. Name events connected with the following dates: 1607, 1620, 1800,
> 1849, 1865. 
> 
> - Orthography (Time, one hour) -
> [Do we even know what this is??]
> 1. What is meant by the following: alphabet, phonetic, orthography,
> etymology, syllabication
> 2. What are elementary sounds? How classified?
> 3. What are the following, and give examples of each: trigraph,
> subvocals, diphthong, cognate letters, linguals 
> 4. Give four substitutes for caret 'u.' (HUH?)
> 5. Give two rules for spelling words with final 'e.' Name two
> exceptions under each rule.
> 6. Give two uses of silent letters in spelling. Illustrate each. 
> 7. Define the following prefixes and use in connection with a word:
> bi, dis-mis, pre, semi, post, non, inter, mono, sup.
> 8. Mark diacritically and divide into syllables the following, and
> name the sign that indicates the sound: card, ball, mercy, sir, odd,
> cell, rise, blood, fare, last. 
> 9. Use the following correctly in sentences: cite, site, sight, 
fane,
> fain, feign, vane , vain, vein, raze, raise, rays.
> 10. Write 10 words frequently mispronounced and indicate 
pronunciation
> by use of diacritical marks and by syllabication. 
> 
> - Geography (Time, one hour)-
> 1. What is climate? Upon what does climate depend?
> 2. How do you account for the extremes of climate in Kansas ? 
> 3. Of what use are rivers? Of what use is the ocean?
> 4. Describe the mountains of North America  
> 5. Name and describe the following:  Monrovia ,  Odessa ,  Denver , 
> Manitoba ,  Hecla ,  Yukon , St. Helena, Juan Fernandez, Aspinwall 
and
>  Orinoco  
> 6. Name and locate the principal trade centers of the U.S. Name all
> the republics of  Europe and give the capital of each.
> 8. Why is the  Atlantic  Coast colder than the Pacific in the same
> latitude? 
> 9. Describe the process by which the water of the ocean returns to 
the
> sources of rivers.
> 10. Describe the movements of the earth. Give the inclination of the
> earth. 
> 
> Notice that the exam took FIVE HOURS to complete.
> 
> Gives the saying 'he only had an 8th grade education' a whole new
> meaning, doesn't it?!   
> 
> NO, I don't have the answers!
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> 
> Sorry, this post is kind of long, but, come on, that's a tough
> test.
> 
> Steve/bboyminn


Marianne:

Well.  I've failed it already.  Can't even get the first question 
right.

Marianne
>





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 24 01:17:53 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 01:17:53 -0000
Subject: Eighth Grade Education circa - 1895  - - (long)
In-Reply-To: <gld2rp+iur7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gldq81+c3mp@eGroups.com>

Steve wrote:
>
> <snip> This is an actual 8th grade final exam taken from the
historical archives in Kansas.
> 
> I thought Orthography was particularly interesting in that I've
never heard of Orthography before, and if I had to have guessed, I
would have said it was the study of birds.
>
Carol responds:

Um, er, I don't know about kids these days, but I'm pretty sure that
most of us on this list studied it in school. "Orth-" relates to
correctness and "graph[y]" to writing. Orthography is the use of the
correct letters to represent words--in other words, spelling. 

You're thinking of ornithology, which, to my knowledge, has never been
a standard subject for eighth-grade students.

Carol, who hasn't taken the exam yet because she was sidetracked by
this detail




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 24 01:59:58 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 01:59:58 -0000
Subject: Bard of Avon
In-Reply-To: <gld95a+6aiq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gldsmu+tgvt@eGroups.com>

Carol earlier:
> > 
> > Well, usually. Of course, he also wrote sonnets that rhymed ABAB
CDCD EFEF GG and other poems such as "the Phoenix and the Turtle,"
whose rhyme scheme I don't remember (was it heroic couplets?). Some of
the dialogue in the various plays is in prose, especially the comic lines.
> > 
> > But, yes. Most of the great lines that we remember are in blank
verse (that's unrhymed iambic pentameter for anyone who doesn't
already know).
> 
> Geoff:
> But the chief point I was making was that the quote that Steve Van
casually tossed into the group didn't look as if it would fit any
metrical pattern at all. Plus the dates I quoted made it rather
unlikely that our friend in Stratford (Warwickshire that is - not the
East End of London!) was the author.
>
Carol:

I see. But we had already established that it wasn't Shakespeare, so I
thought I'd take the post in a slightly different direction and talk
about blank verse.

Carol, who agrees with the rest of Geoff's post, which is why she
snipped it!




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 24 02:39:30 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 02:39:30 -0000
Subject: Eighth Grade Education circa - 1895  - - (long)
In-Reply-To: <gld2rp+iur7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gldv12+2us8@eGroups.com>

Stevewrote:
>
> This is one of those emails that is bouncing around from person to
person, but I thought it was interesting. This is an actual 8th grade
final exam taken from the historical archives in  Kansas. <huge snip>

Carol responds:

I was going to take the exam, but I didn't realize that it would
require several hours. I could easily pass (possibly not ace) the
English part. The arithemetic portion, however, I'd fail. I don't
remember anything about bushels except that a bushel is made up of
pecks in the same way that a gallon is made up of quarts. I don't
understand "For tare?" Does anybody? I don't remember what a rod is
(unless we're talking about rods and cones!). The arithmetic seems
very farm oriented and doesn't resemble what I was learning in eighth
grade (algebra). IIIRC, seventh grade arithmetic was mostly
multiplying and dividing fractions, lowest common denominator, and
stuff like that. I might get two or three of these questions right.
Well, I can write a check and a receipt, but we have forms for those!
(BTW, did anyone notice the British orthography--"metres," etc.--in
this American exam?)

With regard to history, I would miss question 1 (epochs of American
history), question 5 (history of Kansas), question 6 (three prominent
battles of the Rebellion--which Rebellion?) I'd have trouble with the
territorial growth question but get some of it right. I'd get all the
dates except 1800. ("In sixteen hundred seven, we sailed the ocean
sea, for glory, God, and gold and the Virginia Company." Hey, Disney
is good for something!)

Steve: 
> - Orthography (Time, one hour) -
> [Do we even know what this is??]

Carol:
Yep. We do. But I have no idea what they mean by elementary sounds
unless they mean phonemes classified as sibilants and fricatives and
all that stuff I used to know and have forgotten. I'd miss most of
question 3 except for diphthong and I don't get the "caret 'u'"
question, either. The spelling part (except for diacritical marks) is
easy, as is using the various homophones in sentences.

The geography part starts out easy, but I don't understand what they
mean by "name and describe" the list of cities, provinces, etc., nor
do I know anything about Hecla (what the hecla is that?), Juan
Fernandez, Aspinwall, or Orinoco. I don't remember the inclination of
the earth and don't think we ever learned it in school.
 Notice that the exam took FIVE HOURS to complete.

Steve: 
> Gives the saying 'he only had an 8th grade education' a whole new
meaning, doesn't it?!   

Carol:
Yes, it does. If I passed it, my grade (except for the English part)
would be a low pass. And I don't know any high school kids who would
pass it, either. Which is not to say that they don't know things these
kids didn't learn (like astronomy and certain historical events that
hadn't happened yet in 1895.) They can use computers, anyway, but the
ones I know can't spell or even divide words into syllables. (My
mother, who volunteers to tutor elementary school kids in spelling and
arithmetic, says that they have the multiplication table right on
their desks, the way the alphabet is above the board in first-grade
classes. I hope that's only the fourth graders and not the older kids.
What happened to memorization? (Oh, yes. That's a bad word. Interferes
with creativity. I forgot.)

Carol, who wonders what use diacritical marks and diphthongs would
have been to Kansas farm kids in 1895






From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 24 05:18:54 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 05:18:54 -0000
Subject: Eighth Grade Education circa - 1895  - - (long)
In-Reply-To: <gldg0c+nq1t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gle8bu+bdie@eGroups.com>

> Kemper now:
> I'm not really impressed by the test.  I had to learn similar things
> except for orthography, which I would've said was bone-pictures but
> seems more akin to linguistics (sort of), as well as Kansas... though
> I had an ear and eye full of Nevada, the most vile state in the Union.
>  Plus, I had to learn life science, world history, algebra, intro to
> lit and P.E. ...Okay, I didn't learn PE, but I spent time resenting
> it.  I could've been reading!

Alla:

It is funny. See I am not  much impressed either, however, I would not 
be able to answer quite a few things. Because I definitely had to learn 
quite a lot of those things, including orthography, geography etc etc, 
only as related to different language and different country. But sure 
right now I can answer quite a few of those even as related to English, 
heh.

But yes, we definitely learned many of these subjects in that level of 
detail, no question about it.

And while I would not be able to describe all trade centers in US (as 
they were in 19 century I guess?) I would certainly be able to name 
many capitals of european countries, I would be able to show them on 
the map, and to draw their location on the blank map from memory. Those 
were type of tests we did in geography class when I was that age.

While I still won't be able to define all of those prefixes in English, 
only some of them, I can analyse parts of the words and sentences in 
russian, etc.

I love orthography questions though, I am going to print them and work 
out those I do not know.

Alla







From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Sat Jan 24 08:16:59 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 08:16:59 -0000
Subject: Bard of Avon
In-Reply-To: <gldsmu+tgvt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gleipr+nn6d@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:

Carol: 
> I see. But we had already established that it wasn't Shakespeare, so I
> thought I'd take the post in a slightly different direction and talk
> about blank verse.
> 
> Carol, who agrees with the rest of Geoff's post, which is why she
> snipped it!

Geoff:
Ah, he says, the blank look being replaced as he becomes better 
versed in the information being provided.






From willsonkmom at msn.com  Sat Jan 24 15:19:01 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 15:19:01 -0000
Subject: Kids and books WAS: Re: Bard of Avon
In-Reply-To: <gld91s+jbkv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <glfbh5+1v4c@eGroups.com>

 
> Alla: 
> However, IMO if parents did not give child a chance to learn that 
> books are cool, then I would say that it is largely because of 
> parents.


Potioncat:
Somewhere right now, a group of parents are watching their kids 
playing....whatever sport it is kids play in Jan. They're muttering 
about parents who don't insist their kids play sports, and talking 
about how important sports are in developing character. I know 
several families who have a rule that the kids play a sport every 
season, whether the kid wants to or not.

It took me a while to sadly realise it was OK if my kids didn't like 
to read--so long as they would read when they needed to. Just like it 
was OK that I didn't want to go out and play tennis--so long as I 
participate in at least 30 mins of exercise most days of the week.

Oops, sorry, didn't realise I was wearing my nurse's cap.






From willsonkmom at msn.com  Sat Jan 24 15:52:36 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 15:52:36 -0000
Subject: Eighth Grade Education circa - 1895  - - (long)
In-Reply-To: <gld2rp+iur7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <glfdg4+hljg@eGroups.com>

  Steve/bboyminn
> Notice that the exam took FIVE HOURS to complete.
> 
> Gives the saying 'he only had an 8th grade education' a whole new
> meaning, doesn't it?!   
> 
> NO, I don't have the answers!
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


Potioncat:

I am impressed with the test. 

The questions were clear and direct. There wern't any oddly worded 
questions with even stranger choices for answers. The students could 
answer in their own words with their own internal library of 
information. There one or two essays within the test and several more 
questions with long answers.

This isn't like today's standardized tests to be graded by computer. 
How long do you think it took teachers to grade the tests? 

Yep. Beats the heck out of tiny bubbles.




From terrianking at aol.com  Sat Jan 24 15:55:49 2009
From: terrianking at aol.com (terrianking at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 10:55:49 EST
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Eighth Grade Education circa - 1895  - - (long)
Message-ID: <d2c.45d68db1.36ac9405@aol.com>


In a message dated 1/23/2009 8:39:41 P.M. Central Standard Time,  
justcarol67 at yahoo.com writes:

Carol  responds:

I was going to take the exam, but I didn't realize that it 
would require several hours. I could easily pass (possibly not 
ace) the English part. The arithemetic portion, however, I'd 
fail. I don't remember anything about bushels except that a 
bushel is made up of pecks in the same way that a gallon is 
made up of quarts. I don't understand "For tare?" Does anybody? 
 
Anybody:
 
To tare is to subtract the weight of the wagon from the total 
to give only the weight of the crop inside it.
 
 




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 24 16:02:13 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 16:02:13 -0000
Subject: Kids and books WAS: Re: Bard of Avon
In-Reply-To: <glfbh5+1v4c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <glfe25+q2sr@eGroups.com>

  
> > Alla: 
> > However, IMO if parents did not give child a chance to learn that 
> > books are cool, then I would say that it is largely because of 
> > parents.
> 
> 
> Potioncat:
> Somewhere right now, a group of parents are watching their kids 
> playing....whatever sport it is kids play in Jan. They're muttering 
> about parents who don't insist their kids play sports, and talking 
> about how important sports are in developing character. I know 
> several families who have a rule that the kids play a sport every 
> season, whether the kid wants to or not.

Alla:

Oh but sure and believe me when now I am forcing myself to go and 
work out in the gym, I wish, oh dear how much I wish that I would 
have been forced to play sports more as a kid. By the way, my parents 
tried to do that too, however since sports were free back in USSR, 
kids who were not gifted, like me, were not givem much chance to play 
just for the sake of being healthy, you know?


Potioncat:
> It took me a while to sadly realise it was OK if my kids didn't 
like 
> to read--so long as they would read when they needed to. Just like 
it 
> was OK that I didn't want to go out and play tennis--so long as I 
> participate in at least 30 mins of exercise most days of the week.
> 
> Oops, sorry, didn't realise I was wearing my nurse's cap.

Alla:

Of course it is okay, lol, but I am afraid we are talking about two  
similar but different things. I am talking about parents *exposing* 
kids to many different things, be it reading or sports (or ideally 
both), yes exposing even if kids are not very willing initially, not 
about the end result.

And I am saying that even if exposure does not lead to kid becoming a 
book reader, well, I think something stays with a kid. As you say, 
even if your kids do not like to read, they will read when needed for 
studies, etc.

IMO,

Alla





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 24 16:22:57 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 16:22:57 -0000
Subject: Eighth Grade Education circa - 1895  - - (long)
In-Reply-To: <glfdg4+hljg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <glff91+sai8@eGroups.com>

-Potioncat:
> 
> I am impressed with the test. 
> 
> The questions were clear and direct. There wern't any oddly worded 
questions with even stranger choices for answers. The students could
answer in their own words with their own internal library of 
information. There one or two essays within the test and several more
questions with long answers.
> 
> This isn't like today's standardized tests to be graded by computer.
How long do you think it took teachers to grade the tests? 
> 
> Yep. Beats the heck out of tiny bubbles.
>
Carol responds:

With luck, they had no more than ten or fifteen students and had the
entire summer vacation to grade them! Seriously, at least the teachers
wouldn't have to make comments on the essays since the students
wouldn't see them again. I think that the tests "merely" determined
whether the kids could go on to high school but weren't returned to
them. They would only see the results for each subject. I have no idea
how long the teacher would have to return the tests and whether
similar tests were given to students in other grades. But if we're
talking about a one-room schoolhouse, he or she might have had only
about twenty students altogether.

BTW, I agree with you about the tests being a far better measure of
knowledge than computer-graded multiple-choice questions (even when
wrong answers are penalized to deter guessing). And the attempts to
measure a student's writing skills using a computer (length of
sentences, length of words, number of passive voice sentences and what
the computer perceives as spelling or grammatical errors) are just
abysmal. Nothing can replace an educated human reader to determine a
student's writing proficiency.

Sidenote here:
When I taught freshman composition, we graded the freshman placement
exams (determining whether they went into remedial, regular, or honors
composition) in two groups. Each group had a stack of essays to draw
from (finish one essay and take another from the stack) and when all
the essays had been read and assigned a number (1, 2, 3, or 4), we
switched stacks so that every essay was read at least twice. A 1 meant
that the essay was poorly written and the student definitely needed
remedial composition. A 2 meant that it was below average; the student
would survive regular composition but might benefit from a remedial
class. A 3 meant a solid essay, definitely a regular freshman comp
student. A 4 meant that the essay was exceptional, definitely honors
material.

Naturally, some degree of subjectivity was unavoidable. A split
reading (1/3, 2/4, even sometimes 1/4) meant that the essay got a
third reading by someone who hadn't read it the first time. a 1/3/4
essay would get a fourth reading! It was a pretty good system. I never
felt that any of my many students, and I taught more than a thousand
all told, had been assigned to the wrong class. A computer could never
do that, especially if it automatically graded essays with long
sentences and long words as "good." (Most of the bad writing I
encounter as a copyeditor is based on that same faulty assumption.)

Carol, who vividly remembers spending long nights in Village Inn with
a carafe of coffee and a pile of freshman essays to grade and wonders
how she managed to teach the next day




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 24 16:44:51 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 16:44:51 -0000
Subject: Eighth Grade Education circa - 1895  - - (long)
In-Reply-To: <d2c.45d68db1.36ac9405@aol.com>
Message-ID: <glfgi3+icvs@eGroups.com>

Carol  earlier:
> 
> <snip> I don't understand "For tare?" Does anybody? 
>  
> Anybody:
>  
> To tare is to subtract the weight of the wagon from the total to
give only the weight of the crop inside it.

Carol:

Thank you! I don't recall learning any such thing in seventh- or
eight-grade arithmetic, but it was a long time ago. I prefer English.

Now, just for fun, anyone for a lesson in meter and rhyme scheme to go
with the reference to Shakespearean sonnets in another post? (Poetry,
not math?) That I remember though I don't think I learned it in eighth
grade.

Identify the meter (stanza three works best as it's the most regular)
and rhyme scheme (count "hear" and "where" as a rhyme) of the
following stanza and, for extra credit (no looking it up on Google!),
identify the title and author of the poem:

O WILD West Wind, thou breath of Autumn's being	 
  Thou from whose unseen presence the leaves dead	 
Are driven like ghosts from an enchanter fleeing,	 
 
  Yellow, and black, and pale, and hectic red,	 
Pestilence-stricken multitudes! O thou	         5
  Who chariotest to their dark wintry bed	 
 
The wing?d seeds, where they lie cold and low,	 
  Each like a corpse within its grave, until	 
Thine azure sister of the Spring shall blow	 
 
  Her clarion o'er the dreaming earth, and fill	  10
(Driving sweet buds like flocks to feed in air)	 
  With living hues and odours plain and hill;	 
 
Wild Spirit, which art moving everywhere;	 
Destroyer and preserver; hear, O hear!

Or an easier one, at least in terms of author and title:

Once upon a midnight dreary, while I pondered, weak and weary,
Over many a quaint and curious volume of forgotten lore,
While I nodded, nearly napping, suddenly there came a tapping,
As of someone gently rapping, rapping at my chamber door.
" 'Tis some visitor," I muttered, "tapping at my chamber door;
Only this, and nothing more."

Note that the second line is irregular; don't use it to determine the
meter.

Carol, wondering how "anybody" remembers such things ;-)





From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 24 16:54:17 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 16:54:17 -0000
Subject: Poetry questions and answers WAS: Re: Eighth Grade
In-Reply-To: <glfgi3+icvs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <glfh3p+788g@eGroups.com>

> Carol:
> 
> Thank you! I don't recall learning any such thing in seventh- or
> eight-grade arithmetic, but it was a long time ago. I prefer 
English.
> 
> Now, just for fun, anyone for a lesson in meter and rhyme scheme to 
go
> with the reference to Shakespearean sonnets in another post? 
(Poetry,
> not math?) That I remember though I don't think I learned it in 
eighth
> grade.
> 
> Identify the meter (stanza three works best as it's the most 
regular)
> and rhyme scheme (count "hear" and "where" as a rhyme) of the
> following stanza and, for extra credit (no looking it up on 
Google!),
> identify the title and author of the poem:
> 
> O WILD West Wind, thou breath of Autumn's being	 
>   Thou from whose unseen presence the leaves dead	 
> Are driven like ghosts from an enchanter fleeing,	 
>  
>   Yellow, and black, and pale, and hectic red,	 
> Pestilence-stricken multitudes! O thou	         5
>   Who chariotest to their dark wintry bed	 
>  
> The wing?d seeds, where they lie cold and low,	 
>   Each like a corpse within its grave, until	 
> Thine azure sister of the Spring shall blow	 
>  
>   Her clarion o'er the dreaming earth, and fill	  10
> (Driving sweet buds like flocks to feed in air)	 
>   With living hues and odours plain and hill;	 
>  
> Wild Spirit, which art moving everywhere;	 
> Destroyer and preserver; hear, O hear!
> 
> Or an easier one, at least in terms of author and title:
> 
> Once upon a midnight dreary, while I pondered, weak and weary,
> Over many a quaint and curious volume of forgotten lore,
> While I nodded, nearly napping, suddenly there came a tapping,
> As of someone gently rapping, rapping at my chamber door.
> " 'Tis some visitor," I muttered, "tapping at my chamber door;
> Only this, and nothing more."
> 
> Note that the second line is irregular; don't use it to determine 
the
> meter.
> 
> Carol, wondering how "anybody" remembers such things ;-)
>


Alla:

Not snipping anything on purpose, too beatiful. Just trying to figure 
the authors. First one is Shelley, I believe.

Second one - Frost?




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Sat Jan 24 17:33:39 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 17:33:39 -0000
Subject: Poetry questions and answers WAS: Re: Eighth Grade
In-Reply-To: <glfh3p+788g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <glfjdj+oc8b@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" 
<dumbledore11214 at ...> wrote:
>
> > Carol:

> > Identify the meter (stanza three works best as it's the most 
> regular)
> > and rhyme scheme (count "hear" and "where" as a rhyme) of the
> > following stanza and, for extra credit (no looking it up on 
> Google!),
> > identify the title and author of the poem:

Geoff:
I'm not into metres, but without Googling (honest!) I think it's 
Keats "Ode to the West Wind"?

Carol:
> > Or an easier one, at least in terms of author and title:
> > 
> > Once upon a midnight dreary, while I pondered, weak and weary,
> > Over many a quaint and curious volume of forgotten lore,
> > While I nodded, nearly napping, suddenly there came a tapping,
> > As of someone gently rapping, rapping at my chamber door.
> > " 'Tis some visitor," I muttered, "tapping at my chamber door;
> > Only this, and nothing more."

Geoff:
Hmmm. I know it and can't out a finger on it immediately.




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Sat Jan 24 17:39:20 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 17:39:20 -0000
Subject: Poetry questions and answers
In-Reply-To: <glfjdj+oc8b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <glfjo8+f5it@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" <gbannister10 at ...> wrote:
>
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" 
> <dumbledore11214@> wrote:
> >
> > > Carol:
> 
> > > Identify the meter (stanza three works best as it's the most 
> > regular)
> > > and rhyme scheme (count "hear" and "where" as a rhyme) of the
> > > following stanza and, for extra credit (no looking it up on 
> > Google!),
> > > identify the title and author of the poem:
> 
> Geoff:
> I'm not into metres, but without Googling (honest!) I think it's 
> Keats "Ode to the West Wind"?
> 
> Carol:
> > > Or an easier one, at least in terms of author and title:
> > > 
> > > Once upon a midnight dreary, while I pondered, weak and weary,
> > > Over many a quaint and curious volume of forgotten lore,
> > > While I nodded, nearly napping, suddenly there came a tapping,
> > > As of someone gently rapping, rapping at my chamber door.
> > > " 'Tis some visitor," I muttered, "tapping at my chamber door;
> > > Only this, and nothing more."
> 
> Geoff:
> Hmmm. I know it and can't out a finger on it immediately.

Geoff (Answering myself):
Blast. Alla's right. And the other one is EAP - I know I ought to 
have got  it - I read most of his stuff years ago....






From n2fgc at arrl.net  Sat Jan 24 17:43:40 2009
From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force)
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 12:43:40 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Poetry questions and answers WAS: Re: Eighth Grade
In-Reply-To: <glfh3p+788g@eGroups.com>
References: <glfgi3+icvs@eGroups.com> <glfh3p+788g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <1BF148EF529445AFB0B8F61C87E118A2@musiclee>

The second is "The Raven," Edgar Alan Poe.  Definitely an interesting scheme
on it.  I understand it but don't know the correct way of presenting it. :-)

Cheers,

Lee :-)




From terrianking at aol.com  Sat Jan 24 17:22:23 2009
From: terrianking at aol.com (terrianking at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 12:22:23 EST
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Eighth Grade Education circa - 1895  - - (long)
Message-ID: <bc7.3726c343.36aca84f@aol.com>



In a message dated 1/24/2009 10:45:01 A.M. Central Standard Time,  
justcarol67 at yahoo.com writes:

Carol:

Thank you! I don't recall learning any such thing in  seventh- or
eight-grade arithmetic, but it was a long time ago. I prefer  English.

Now, just for fun, anyone for a lesson in meter and rhyme  scheme to go
with the reference to Shakespearean sonnets in another post?  (Poetry,
not math?) That I remember though I don't think I learned it in  eighth
grade.

Identify the meter (stanza three works best as it's  the most regular)
and rhyme scheme (count "hear" and "where" as a rhyme) of  the
following stanza and, for extra credit (no looking it up on  Google!),
identify the title and author of the poem:
 
 
 
Robert:

Ode to the West Wind and The Raven
Authors:
P.B. Shelley
E.A.Poe
 
Iambic pentameter and something about tercets but I don't remember how  that 
fits. I was an English major before I switched to veterinary medicine a  long 
time ago. 


**************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy 
steps! 
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1215855013x1201028747/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072%26hmpgID=62%26bcd=De
cemailfooterNO62)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 24 19:10:16 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 19:10:16 -0000
Subject: Poetry questions and answers WAS: Re: Eighth Grade
In-Reply-To: <glfjdj+oc8b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <glfp2o+72ap@eGroups.com>

Carol earlier:
> 
> > > Identify the meter (stanza three works best as it's the most 
regular) and rhyme scheme (count "hear" and "where" as a rhyme) of the
following stanza and, for extra credit (no looking it up on Google!),>
identify the title and author of the poem:
> 
> Geoff:
> I'm not into metres, but without Googling (honest!) I think it's 
Keats "Ode to the West Wind"?

Carol responds:

Alla got the author right. It's Shelley, not Keats. (But they're both
Young Romantics and knew each other slightly, so you're close.) But,
yes, it's "Ode to the West Wind"--a thing of beauty and a joy forever,
to paraphrase Keats's line in a different poem altogether, "Endymion."

(Alla, I think you'd really like Shelley's poetry, or some of it, and
you might appreciate his politics as well--quite enlightened for his
time, 1792-1822. He died before his thirtieth birthday.)
 
Carol, who's waiting to see what other posters say before revealing
any more answers




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 24 19:14:29 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 19:14:29 -0000
Subject: Poetry questions and answers WAS: Re: Eighth Grade
In-Reply-To: <1BF148EF529445AFB0B8F61C87E118A2@musiclee>
Message-ID: <glfpal+r4h0@eGroups.com>

Lee wrote:
>
> The second is "The Raven," Edgar Alan Poe.  Definitely an
interesting scheme on it.  I understand it but don't know the correct
way of presenting it. :-)

Carol responds:

Right. Geoff's "EAP" indicates that he also knew the author, if not
the title of the poem. (Now, if I'd included, "Quoth the Raven, 'Never
mor!'" everyone would have gotten it.

I'll explain the meter and rhyme scheme in a moment, but it's complex
and some people will probably either fall asleep or pull their hair
out in confusion.

Carol, not sure how many posts this little quiz will involve!




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 24 20:04:53 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 20:04:53 -0000
Subject: Eighth Grade Education circa - 1895  - - (long)
In-Reply-To: <bc7.3726c343.36aca84f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <glfs95+tnnj@eGroups.com>

Robert:
> 
> Ode to the West Wind and The Raven
> Authors:
> P.B. Shelley
> E.A.Poe
>  
> Iambic pentameter and something about tercets but I don't remember
how  that fits. I was an English major before I switched to veterinary
medicine a  long time ago. 

Carol responds:

Good one! Shelley's poem, "Ode to the West Wind" is composed of three
iambic pentameter tercets (three lines) followed by a couplet (two
lines). Iambic pentameter means that each line is composed of five
iambic feet or iambs (penta = five). An iamb is two syllables with the
stress on the second, like so:

Thine az'/ure sis'/ter of'/the Spring'/shall blow'

Since many words in English are accented on the second syllable,
iambic pentameter is the most natural-sounding meter in English, which
is why Shakespeare used blank verse (unrhymed iambic pentameter) as
the primary verse form for his plays. It can also, often, sound
majestic and beautiful, as it does in Shelley's ode (though he
deliberately makes the meter irregular in places so that he avoids a
strict da-DUM da-DUM da-DUM da-DUM da-DUM rhythm.

Poe's, however, is extremely regular trochaic octameter, which means
that each line (except the short line at the end of the stanza)
consists of eight trochaic feet or trochees. ("Octa = eight).

once' u/pon' a/mid' night/drea' ry/while' I/pon'dered/weak' and/wea'ry

The last line is trochaic tetrameter or four trochees. ("Tetra" =
four.) A trochee is the opposite of an iamb, a two-syllable foot with
the stress on the first syllable. Trochaic octameter, in contrast with
iambic pentameter, is highly unusual and not at all natural sounding.
Poe wants the reader or listener to be fully aware of the meter, which
creates an almost pounding and insistent rhythm: DUM-da DUM-da DUM-da
DUM-da DUM-da DUM-da DUM-da DUM-da with only an occasional and
probably inevitable break in the pattern.

The length of a line can also be dimeter (two feet), trimeter (three
feet), hexameter (six feet), or heptameter (seven feet). The other
types of feet (besides iambs and trochees) are dactyls (one stressed
syllable followed by two unstressed: DUM da da), anapests (two
unstressed syllables followed by one unstressed: da da DUM) and
spondees (two stressed syllables: DUM DUM). Obviously, you can't have
a whole line of spondees, and the other two are relatively uncommon in
English.

Here's anapestic tetrameter:

The As syr'/ian came down'/ like a wolf'/ on the fold'
And his co'/horts were gleam'/ing in pur'/ple and gold'

Dactylic is mostly used in nursery rhymes because its effect (in
English, at least) is so jingly:

Hick' er y/dick' er y/dock' (incomplete anapestic trimeter)
(The mouse'/ran' up/ the clock' is trochaic, not anapestic, indicating
how difficult it is to sustain this meter in English.)

The only real poem I know that actually uses a sustained dactylic
meter is Longfellow's "Evangeline":

This' is the/for'est prim/e' val the/mur' mur ing/pines' and the/hem'
locks

Note that the last syllable is a trochee (DUM da).

Okay, that covers meter (the measured rhythm of a line of poetry).
I'll do rhyme scheme in a separate post.

Carol, confessing that the only way she can keep anapests and dactyls
straight is by remembering that the word anapest (AN a pest) is a
dactyl (Dactyl [DAC tyl], however, is a trochee!)




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 24 20:56:02 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 20:56:02 -0000
Subject: Eighth Grade Education circa - 1895  - - (long)
In-Reply-To: <glfgi3+icvs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <glfv92+q6kv@eGroups.com>

The easiest way to illustrate rhyme scheme is to quote the poems again
and label the lines, starting with A and switching to B if the line
doesn't rhyme and so on. Bear in mind that Shelley sometimes uses
slant rhymes (near rhymes) like "thou" and "low" or "where" and "hear."
> 
 WILD West Wind, thou breath of Autumn's being	   A
  Thou from whose unseen presence the leaves dead  B 
 Are driven like ghosts from an enchanter fleeing, A	 
  
   Yellow, and black, and pale, and hectic red,    B	 
 Pestilence-stricken multitudes! O thou	           C         
   Who chariotest to their dark wintry bed	   B 
  
 The wing?d seeds, where they lie cold and low,	   C
   Each like a corpse within its grave, until	   D 
 Thine azure sister of the Spring shall blow	   C 
  
   Her clarion o'er the dreaming earth, and fill   D	  
 (Driving sweet buds like flocks to feed in air)   E	 
   With living hues and odours plain and hill;	   D
  
 Wild Spirit, which art moving everywhere;	   E
 Destroyer and preserver; hear, O hear!            E

Notice that the first and third lines of each tercet (three-line
stanza) rhyme and that the first line of each tercet except the first
 rhymes with the second line of the stanza before it. This intricate
rhyme scheme is called terza rima (literally, third rhyme). Shelley
could have sustained it for the whole poem but instead he invents a
new stanza form that blends terza rima with the sonnet (fourteen lines
of rhymed iambic pentameter) by adding a couplet using the rhyme from
the second line of the last stanza. The whole poem is composed of what
I call terza rima sonnets. You'd have to read the whole poem to see
how neatly it all fits together:

http://www.bartleby.com/101/610.html

Now I'll do the same thing with the first stanza of Poe's "the Raven": 
 
Once upon a midnight dreary, (A) while I pondered, weak and weary, A
Over many a quaint and curious volume of forgotten lore,           B
While I nodded, nearly napping, (C) suddenly there came a tapping, C
As of someone gently rapping, (C) rapping  (C) at my chamber door. B
"'Tis some visitor," I muttered, "tapping (C) at my chamber door;  B
Only this, and nothing more."                                      B

Poe's rhyme scheme (which contains internal rhymes as well as end
rhymes and repeats a word in every stanza (door, door; Lenore; Lenore,
etc.). In this stanza and a few others, he repeats a whole phrase,
with only the change from an "r" in "rapping" to a "t" in "tapping."
The pattern is as insistently repetitive as the trochaic octameter
meter that I discussed earlier and the cumulative effect throughout
the whole poem is maddening. Like the narrator, who can't escape the
incessant rapping and tapping of the raven, the reader or listener is
caught up in, even trapped by, the incessant and repetitive rhyme and
rhythm of the verse form.

You can read it here 

http://www.bartleby.com/102/84.html

I tried to find a good audio version, but the ones I found are all
read too quickly for the repetition to have the full effect.

You can try this one with John Astin in period costume

http://knowingpoe.thinkport.org/library/theraven_astin.asp

or this audio version, complete with thunder, read by Christopher Walken: 

http://www.esnips.com/doc/c092a369-715b-40f5-87a1-5ae9522b8b26/Edgar-Allan-Poe---The-Raven-(Christopher-Walken)

If that's too long to link, try the tinyurl:

http://tinyurl.com/cuqu4z

If anyone finds a better version, please post the URL.

There's also supposed to be a "Simpsons" spoof with Bart reading the
poem, which ought to be  hilarious, but I'm afraid of losing my post
if I take time to search for it.

Carol, hoping you're not feeling weary from an Enlish lesson dreary
(okay, I'll stop now!)

 





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 24 21:01:55 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 21:01:55 -0000
Subject: Eighth Grade Education circa - 1895  - - (long)
In-Reply-To: <glfs95+tnnj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <glfvk3+145s@eGroups.com>

Carol earlier:
> 
> Note that the last syllable is a trochee (DUM da).

Carol again:

Sorry. I meant, "Note that the last *foot* is a trochee."

Carol, who's out of practice and may well have made other little errors





From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Sat Jan 24 21:21:41 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 21:21:41 -0000
Subject: Verse and worse was Re: Eighth Grade etc.
In-Reply-To: <glfvk3+145s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <glg0p5+6i75@eGroups.com>

So, Carol, what do you make of:

"The Lord of the Rings"
Is one of those things,
If you like it, you do.
If you don't then you "Boo".

(J R R Tolkein)




From kempermentor at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 24 21:38:47 2009
From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kempermentor)
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 21:38:47 -0000
Subject: Verse and worse was Re: Eighth Grade etc.
In-Reply-To: <glg0p5+6i75@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <glg1p7+815v@eGroups.com>

> Geoff:
> So, Carol, what do you make of:
> 
> "The Lord of the Rings"
> Is one of those things,
> If you like it, you do.
> If you don't then you "Boo".
> 
> (J R R Tolkein)

Kemper answering even though directed at Carol:
Boo!

Kemper





From willsonkmom at msn.com  Sat Jan 24 22:01:02 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 22:01:02 -0000
Subject: Eighth Grade Education circa - 1895  - - (long)
In-Reply-To: <glfv92+q6kv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <glg32u+hqju@eGroups.com>

Carol: 
> There's also supposed to be a "Simpsons" spoof with Bart reading the
> poem, which ought to be  hilarious, but I'm afraid of losing my post
> if I take time to search for it.

Potioncat:
Here it is!--and it is funny.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9_6IODy0mU

It's audio, no video.

Along the right side of the screen were other recordings--one by James 
Earl Jones.






From mwood005 at comcast.net  Sat Jan 24 22:18:21 2009
From: mwood005 at comcast.net (melody_wood14)
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 22:18:21 -0000
Subject: Poetry questions and answers WAS: Re: Eighth Grade
In-Reply-To: <glfh3p+788g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <glg43d+g81g@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" 
<dumbledore11214 at ...> wrote:
>
> > Carol:
> > 
> > Thank you! I don't recall learning any such thing in seventh- or
> > eight-grade arithmetic, but it was a long time ago. I prefer 
> English.
> > 
> > Now, just for fun, anyone for a lesson in meter and rhyme scheme 
to 
> go
> > with the reference to Shakespearean sonnets in another post? 
> (Poetry,
> > not math?) That I remember though I don't think I learned it in 
> eighth
> > grade.
> > 
> > Identify the meter (stanza three works best as it's the most 
> regular)
> > and rhyme scheme (count "hear" and "where" as a rhyme) of the
> > following stanza and, for extra credit (no looking it up on 
> Google!),
> > identify the title and author of the poem:
> > 
> > O WILD West Wind, thou breath of Autumn's being	 
> >   Thou from whose unseen presence the leaves dead	 
> > Are driven like ghosts from an enchanter fleeing,	 
> >  
> >   Yellow, and black, and pale, and hectic red,	 
> > Pestilence-stricken multitudes! O thou	         5
> >   Who chariotest to their dark wintry bed	 
> >  
> > The wing?d seeds, where they lie cold and low,	 
> >   Each like a corpse within its grave, until	 
> > Thine azure sister of the Spring shall blow	 
> >  
> >   Her clarion o'er the dreaming earth, and fill	  10
> > (Driving sweet buds like flocks to feed in air)	 
> >   With living hues and odours plain and hill;	 
> >  
> > Wild Spirit, which art moving everywhere;	 
> > Destroyer and preserver; hear, O hear!
> > 
> > Or an easier one, at least in terms of author and title:
> > 
> > Once upon a midnight dreary, while I pondered, weak and weary,
> > Over many a quaint and curious volume of forgotten lore,
> > While I nodded, nearly napping, suddenly there came a tapping,
> > As of someone gently rapping, rapping at my chamber door.
> > " 'Tis some visitor," I muttered, "tapping at my chamber door;
> > Only this, and nothing more."
> > 
> > Note that the second line is irregular; don't use it to determine 
> the
> > meter.
> > 
> > Carol, wondering how "anybody" remembers such things ;-)
> >
> 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Not snipping anything on purpose, too beatiful. Just trying to 
figure 
> the authors. First one is Shelley, I believe.
> 
> Second one - Frost?
>
> 
> Melody_wood14

> Second one is Poe




From md at exit-reality.com  Sat Jan 24 22:39:28 2009
From: md at exit-reality.com (Cabal)
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 17:39:28 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Eighth Grade Education circa - 1895  - - (long)
In-Reply-To: <glg32u+hqju@eGroups.com>
References: <glfv92+q6kv@eGroups.com> <glg32u+hqju@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000c01c97e74$9e7825b0$db687110$@com>


-----Original Message-----
From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
[mailto:HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of potioncat
Sent: Saturday, January 24, 2009 5:01 PM
To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Eighth Grade Education circa - 1895 - -
(long)

Carol: 
> There's also supposed to be a "Simpsons" spoof with Bart reading the
> poem, which ought to be  hilarious, but I'm afraid of losing my post
> if I take time to search for it.
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
The Simpson's episode is read by James Earl Jones. We watched it in class
while studying Poe. The episode is on DVD.

md




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 24 23:03:19 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 23:03:19 -0000
Subject: Verse and worse was Re: Eighth Grade etc.
In-Reply-To: <glg0p5+6i75@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <glg6nn+h3lj@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister"
<gbannister10 at ...> wrote:
>
> So, Carol, what do you make of:
> 
> "The Lord of the Rings"
> Is one of those things,
> If you like it, you do.
> If you don't then you "Boo".
> 
> (J R R Tolkein)
>
Carol responds:

If Tolkien wrote this,
I'm a po'tess. (That's "poetess" with an apostrophe to indicate an
omitted e.)

But for the sake of the thread, let me examine the specimen. Rhyme
scheme AA BB. Meter irregular. The first and second lines consist of
an iamb followed by an anapest. The third and fourth lines are perfect
anapestic dimeter (If you like'/it you do', etc.). The genre is
essentially that of the Hogwarts school song, doggerel. <winks at Geoff>

Carol, who would never boo for "Lord of the Rings" but is not overfond
of Mr. Bilbo's poetry




From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 24 23:12:31 2009
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 23:12:31 -0000
Subject: Eighth Grade Education circa - 1895  - - (long)
In-Reply-To: <glfs95+tnnj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <glg78v+bimc@eGroups.com>

---  "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:
>
>...
> Carol responds:
> 
> ... It can also, often, sound majestic and beautiful, as it
> does in Shelley's ode (though he deliberately makes the meter
> irregular in places so that he avoids a strict da-DUM da-DUM 
> da-DUM da-DUM da-DUM rhythm.
> 
> ... Trochaic octameter, in contrast with iambic pentameter, 
> is highly unusual and not at all natural sounding. Poe wants
> the reader or listener to be fully aware of the meter, which
> creates an almost pounding and insistent rhythm: DUM-da DUM-da
> DUM-da DUM-da DUM-da DUM-da DUM-da DUM-da with only an 
> occasional and probably inevitable break in the pattern.
> 
> ...

bboyminn:

While I suspose it is necessary to learn the underlying'
structure and tempo of poety, that knowledge has all but
ruined poetry for me. When ever I read, I falling into a
pattern of ridged 'beat' and phrasing that make the poetry 
most unnatural, and I suspect every kid who has had the
underlying aspects of poetry forced on him, equally fall
into that dead unyielding phrasing and rhythm.

Despite having an underlying structure, poetry should be
read to one's self and out loud, in as natural of phrasing
and rhythm as possible.

The only way I can do this is, as I read, imagine John 
Lithgow reading the words out loud. That help, though I 
don't know why it's John Lithgow, but even then the 
ridged rhythms and phrasing keep creeping in. 

So, while I think understanding the underlying structure
has value, I think too many teacher fail to move past that
into poetry that has a less obvious rhythm and a more natural
flow. By that, I don't necessarily mean different poems. 
The same poem could be studied for structure, then subduing
that structure, read in a more natural voice to help kids 
understand the meaning and emotion behind the poem. 

One of my favorites is "The Drummer-Boy's Burial" by 
Anonymous from "The Illustrated Library of World Poetry".

All day long the storm of battle through the startled valley
swept;
All night long the stars in heaven o'vr the slain sad vigils
kept.

O the ghastly upturned faces gleaming whitely through the
night!
O the heaps of mangled corses in that dim sepulchral light!

...

I find poems about war very moving for some reason. 

Steve/bluewizard




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 24 23:13:06 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 23:13:06 -0000
Subject: Eighth Grade Education circa - 1895  - - (long)
In-Reply-To: <glg32u+hqju@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <glg7a2+rvp7@eGroups.com>

Carol: 
> > There's also supposed to be a "Simpsons" spoof with Bart reading
the poem, which ought to be  hilarious, but I'm afraid of losing my
post if I take time to search for it.
> 
> Potioncat:
> Here it is!--and it is funny.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9_6IODy0mU
> 
> It's audio, no video.
> 
> Along the right side of the screen were other recordings--one by
James Earl Jones.
>
Carol responds:

Thanks. That was fun. I can just imagine what Poe would think. He'd
probably cry.

Carol, who thinks that James Earl Jones has just the right voice and
intonation for the poem based on the parts he read




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 24 23:47:14 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 23:47:14 -0000
Subject: Eighth Grade Education circa - 1895  - - (long)
In-Reply-To: <glg78v+bimc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <glg9a2+4big@eGroups.com>

Steve wrote: 
> One of my favorites is "The Drummer-Boy's Burial" by 
> Anonymous from "The Illustrated Library of World Poetry".
> 
> All day long the storm of battle through the startled valley
> swept;
> All night long the stars in heaven o'vr the slain sad vigils
> kept.
> 
> O the ghastly upturned faces gleaming whitely through the
> night!
> O the heaps of mangled corses in that dim sepulchral light!
> 
> ...
> 
> I find poems about war very moving for some reason. 
> 
> Steve/bluewizard
>
Carol responds:

I hope I don't ruin it for you, then, but the rhyme scheme is couplets
(AA, BB) and the meter is trochaic heptameter (just like "the Raven"
but with one less trochee per line). Like "The Raven, it's very
regular but lacks the internal rhyme. This kind of poem can sound very
monotonous, especially today when so many poets write in free verse
(no rhyme or identifiable meter).

If you like war poetry, I'd recommend either Walt Whitman or Wilfred Owen.

Here's Whitman:

BEAT! beat! drums!-blow! bugles! blow! 
Through the windows-through doors-burst like a ruthless force,
Into the solemn church, and scatter the congregation,
Into the school where the scholar is studying;
Leave not the bridegroom quiet-
no happiness must he have now with his bride,
Nor the peaceful farmer any peace,
ploughing his field or gathering his grain,
So fierce you whirr and pound you drums-
so shrill you bugles blow.

Beat! beat! drums!-blow! bugles! blow!
Over the traffic of cities-
over the rumble of wheels in the streets;
Are beds prepared for sleepers at night in the houses?
no sleepers must sleep in those beds,
No bargainers' bargains by day-
no brokers or speculators-would they continue?
Would the talkers be talking?
would the singer attempt to sing?
Would the lawyer rise in the court
to state his case before the judge?
Then rattle quicker, heavier drums-
you bugles wilder blow. 
Beat! beat! drums!-blow! bugles! blow!

Make no parley-stop for no expostulation,
Mind not the timid-mind not the weeper or prayer,
Mind not the old man beseeching the young man,
Let not the child's voice be heard,
nor the mother's entreaties,
Make even the trestles to shake the dead
where they lie awaiting the hearses,
So strong you thump O terrible drums-
so loud you bugles blow.

More Whitman war poems here:

http://members.tripod.com/~DizzyDi2/contents.html#drum

And here's Wilfred Owens's most famous poem, "Dulce et Decorum Est."

        Bent double, like old beggars under sacks, 
        Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge, 
        Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs 
        And towards our distant rest began to trudge. 
        Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots 
        But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind; 
        Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots 
        Of tired, outstripped Five-Nines that dropped behind.

        Gas! Gas! Quick, boys! ?  An ecstasy of fumbling, 
        Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time; 
        But someone still was yelling out and stumbling, 
        And flound'ring like a man in fire or lime . . . 
        Dim, through the misty panes and thick green light, 
        As under a green sea, I saw him drowning. 
        In all my dreams, before my helpless sight, 
        He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning. 

        If in some smothering dreams you too could pace 
        Behind the wagon that we flung him in, 
        And watch the white eyes writhing in his face, 
        His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin; 
        If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood 
        Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs, 
        Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud 
        Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues, 
        My friend, you would not tell with such high zest 
        To children ardent for some desperate glory, 
        The old Lie; Dulce et Decorum est 
        Pro patria mori.

Here's a link to the poem, with explanatory notes:

http://www.warpoetry.co.uk/owen1.html

Whitman's poem is free verse. Owens's has a recognizable rhyme scheme
(ababcdcd) and meter (iambic tetrameter), both altered for the last
four lines of the final stanza. Notice that it reads very naturally,
with no deviations from natural word order or contractions for the
sake of the meter (like "o'er" for "over," which must be what your
anonymous poet had in mind when he wrote "o'vr"), and yet it's clearly
a poem, not prose, with vivid imagery and metaphors and diction so
concrete that you can visualize the horrible cruelty and suffering.

Anyway, a knowledge of the elements that make up a poem shouldn't ruin
it for you any more than watching a "making of" documentary should
ruin a film or seeing how a flute is put together on "How It's Made"
or knowing how to read music should ruin the sound of James Galway's
flute playing. It will, however, help you know a good poem when you
encounter it.

Carol, who had to memorize Whitman's "O Captain, My Captain" in
seventh grade and wishes she'd learned more poems then, when she still
had the ability to memorize easily




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 24 23:55:14 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 23:55:14 -0000
Subject: Eighth Grade Education circa - 1895  - - (long)
In-Reply-To: <glg9a2+4big@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <glg9p2+2rhu@eGroups.com>

Carol earlier:
> Whitman's poem is free verse. 

Carol again:

Which is not to say that it has no identifiable sound patterns or
poetic devices, but I didn't want to bore anybody by pointing out
alliteration, assonance, and so forth. I'm sure you did at least note
the repeated refrain, "Beat! Beat! Drums! Blow! Bugles! Blow!" and the
idiosyncratic punctuation.

Carol, giving! it! a! rest!




From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Jan 25 04:18:12 2009
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 04:18:12 -0000
Subject: movies / books / rods
Message-ID: <glgp64+k0gt@eGroups.com>

Cabal wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/38636>:

<< The experience of reading a book, of becoming personally and deeply
involved with characters and stories in the sort of detail you simply
can't have with a film. A book allows you to see and interpret in a
way a film never can, you have the director, actor, screenwriter,
editor, producer and composer all in between you and the experience,
all manipulating your experience. With a book it's just you and the
author. >>

I rarely see movies, but it doesn't make sense to me that just because
a movie is a collaborative product made by a whole bunch of people
would prevent the viewer from being 'personally and deeply involved
with characters and stories'. Are the Ellery Queen mysteries less
involving than Agatha Christie mysteries because the Ellery Queen
series was written by a duo?

Still, movies are shorter than novels. A normal length movie covers as
much territory as a long short story or short novella, or sometimes
only as much as a regular length short story. Would that length make a
difference to how involving it is?

Carol wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/38668>:

<< wishing that kids these days could get lost in books the way
she used to >>

Maybe they can. They made Harry Potter a best seller before adults
discovered it.

Carol wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/38681>:

<< I don't remember what a rod is (unless we're talking about rods and
cones!) >>

A rod is a unit of measure that we inherited from the Saxons in
England. A furlong is the length of a ploughed furrow = ten rods, and
eight furlongs make a mile. An acre is the amount one man can plow in
one day, which is one furlong times IIRC four rods. Then I think there
are four rods to the chain, and 66 feet to the chain...




From md at exit-reality.com  Sun Jan 25 05:27:10 2009
From: md at exit-reality.com (Cabal)
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 00:27:10 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] re: movies / books / rods
In-Reply-To: <glgp64+k0gt@eGroups.com>
References: <glgp64+k0gt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <001901c97ead$92fb3b30$b8f1b190$@com>



-----Original Message-----
From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
[mailto:HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Catlady (Rita Prince
Winston)
Sent: Saturday, January 24, 2009 11:18 PM
To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] re: movies / books / rods

Cabal wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/38636>:

<< The experience of reading a book, of becoming personally and deeply
involved with characters and stories in the sort of detail you simply
can't have with a film. A book allows you to see and interpret in a
way a film never can, you have the director, actor, screenwriter,
editor, producer and composer all in between you and the experience,
all manipulating your experience. With a book it's just you and the
author. >>

I rarely see movies, but it doesn't make sense to me that just because
a movie is a collaborative product made by a whole bunch of people
would prevent the viewer from being 'personally and deeply involved
with characters and stories'. Are the Ellery Queen mysteries less
involving than Agatha Christie mysteries because the Ellery Queen
series was written by a duo?

::::::::::::::::::::::

That's a completely wrong interpretation of my comments. There's a
difference between collaboration in co-authoring and a producer with his
vision, a writer with his interpretation, a director with his vision, a cast
of actors with their interpretations, an editor with his ideas, a composer
adding his part, a second and third unit director, set designers, costume
designers, etc. etc. 

And an author and a reader.

It's like saying a one on one conversation in a quiet room is the same as
mingling at a party.

md 




From tonks_op at yahoo.com  Sun Jan 25 06:45:45 2009
From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks)
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 06:45:45 -0000
Subject: Eighth Grade Education circa - 1895  - - (long)
In-Reply-To: <gld2rp+iur7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <glh1qp+41rv@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <bboyminn at ...> wrote:
--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <bboyminn at ...> wrote:
>
> This is one of those emails that is bouncing around from person
> to person, but I thought it was interesting. This is an actual
> 8th grade final exam taken from the historical archives in
> Kansas.
SNIP>
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> What it took to get an 8th grade education in 1895...
>
> Remember when grandparents and great-grandparents stated that they
> only had an 8th grade education? Well, check this out. Could any
of us have passed the 8th grade in 1895?

Tonks:

I am impressed by the test. My father was born in 1900 and only
had an 8th grade education. Back then farm kids often did
not go to town to High School, they stayed and worked on the farm.
My father was a very smart man, who started his own successful 
business and was very well respected in town. He used to shake his 
head and say to me "what are they teaching you in that school 
anyway?!" lamenting the education that I got in the 50's and 60's. 
It is even worse today, if you ask me. Half the kids can't speak 
English. As in "me and my friends are going....." to hell in a 
handbasket if you ask me. I could not spell when in school and still 
can't. But the education of the 50's was still better than today. I 
have no doubt that the education that father's generation had was 
far superior to that of both mine and of today.

Tonks_op





From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Sun Jan 25 07:48:01 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 07:48:01 -0000
Subject: movies / books / rods
In-Reply-To: <glgp64+k0gt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <glh5fh+7q1n@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" <catlady at ...> 
wrote:

Carol:
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/38681>:
> 
> << I don't remember what a rod is (unless we're talking about rods and
> cones!) >>
> 
> A rod is a unit of measure that we inherited from the Saxons in
> England. A furlong is the length of a ploughed furrow = ten rods, and
> eight furlongs make a mile. An acre is the amount one man can plow in
> one day, which is one furlong times IIRC four rods. Then I think there
> are four rods to the chain, and 66 feet to the chain...

Geoff:
Being in pedantic mood, the tables we were taught were:
12 inches = 3 foot
3 feet = 1 yard
22 yards = 1 chain
10 chains = 1 furlong
8 furlongs = 1 mile

In practice, the general usage is:
12 inches = 1 yard
5280 feet = 1760 yards = 1 mile

Other than furlong, which gets used in horse racing, the 
other equalities tend to be ignored. A rod is 5.5 yards, 
hence four to the furlong.






From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sun Jan 25 17:00:03 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 17:00:03 -0000
Subject: movies / books / rods
In-Reply-To: <glh5fh+7q1n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gli5qj+o6r2@eGroups.com>

Geoff wrote:
> Being in pedantic mood, the tables we were taught were:
> 12 inches = 3 foot
> 3 feet = 1 yard
> 22 yards = 1 chain
> 10 chains = 1 furlong
> 8 furlongs = 1 mile
> 
> In practice, the general usage is:
> 12 inches = 1 yard
> 5280 feet = 1760 yards = 1 mile
> 
> Other than furlong, which gets used in horse racing, the 
> other equalities tend to be ignored. A rod is 5.5 yards, 
> hence four to the furlong.
>
Carol responds:
I yield to your expertise on rods, chains, and furlongs, but surely
twelve inches equals one foot and three feet equals one yard. That
much I was taught, along with one mile equalling 5,280 feet or 1,760
yards.

Carol, who was never taught any such tables, possibly because the
teachers thought them outmoded




From HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com  Sun Jan 25 18:40:25 2009
From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com (HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 25 Jan 2009 18:40:25 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 1/25/2009, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1232908825.19.39224.m43@yahoogroups.com>

Reminder from: HPFGU-OTChatter Yahoo! Group
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/cal

Weekly Chat
Sunday January 25, 2009
1:00 pm - 2:00 pm
(This event repeats every week.)
Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Notes:
Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour.

To get to the HPfGU room follow this link:
http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want
to be called.

Enter the password: hpfguchat

Click "Join Chat" on the lower right.

Chat start times:
11 am Pacific US
12 noon Mountain US
1 pm Central US
2 pm Eastern US
7 pm UK




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From md at exit-reality.com  Sun Jan 25 18:58:36 2009
From: md at exit-reality.com (Cabal)
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 13:58:36 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: movies / books / rods
In-Reply-To: <glh5fh+7q1n@eGroups.com>
References: <glgp64+k0gt@eGroups.com> <glh5fh+7q1n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00c501c97f1e$ee9ec9e0$cbdc5da0$@com>



-----Original Message-----
From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
[mailto:HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Geoff Bannister
Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2009 2:48 AM
To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: movies / books / rods

Geoff:
Being in pedantic mood, the tables we were taught were:
12 inches = 3 foot
3 feet = 1 yard
22 yards = 1 chain
10 chains = 1 furlong
8 furlongs = 1 mile

In practice, the general usage is:
12 inches = 1 yard
5280 feet = 1760 yards = 1 mile
::::::::::::::::::::::

They taught you 12 inches was 3 feet or 1 yard??? I thought it was a typo,
but you said it twice.
12 inches = 1 foot 
3 feet (36 inches) = 1 yard 

I'm still thinking you had a brain glitch :-D

md




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Sun Jan 25 20:48:40 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 20:48:40 -0000
Subject: movies / books / rods
In-Reply-To: <gli5qj+o6r2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <glij78+s6ga@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:

Carol:
> I yield to your expertise on rods, chains, and furlongs, but surely
> twelve inches equals one foot and three feet equals one yard. That
> much I was taught, along with one mile equalling 5,280 feet or 1,760
> yards.
> 
> Carol, who was never taught any such tables, possibly because the
> teachers thought them outmoded

Geoff:
Urggh. How did I manage to miss that on proof reading? I think I've 
got a house-elf who changes my text as I hit the Send key.

Of course it's 12 inches = 1 foot.

< exit stage left muttering:
"Idiot, nitwit, blubber, oddment, nincompoop, clot, tweak"
while hitting self over head with 12 inch plastic ruler>






From Mhochberg at aol.com  Sun Jan 25 21:27:27 2009
From: Mhochberg at aol.com (Mhochberg at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 16:27:27 -0500
Subject: Bard of Avon
Message-ID: <8CB4D4ADB2F48FC-1470-33B4@webmail-de08.sysops.aol.com>

Carol wrote:
I remember reading a novel as a little girl in which the child heroine

shows her aunt a poem she's written and gets an unfavorable reaction.

The girl says, "But it's blank verse!" to which the aunt replies

dryly, "Yes. Very blank." I should read the book again considering

that I still remember that scene after all these years. I think it was

"Emily of New Moon." Has anyone else ever read that book?

I reply:
Yes, I've read "Emily of New Moon" as well as the sequel "Emily Climbs" both by L. M. Montgomery, author of the Anne of Avonlea books as well as many, many others. I particularly liked the Emily books as Emily wanted to be a writer. 

I went through a period where I read everything that had been republished. What really appealed to me where her characters. In one book she describes someone whose facial features all seemed to be trying to get away from each other.

---Mary



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Jan 25 23:37:57 2009
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 23:37:57 -0000
Subject: obsolete units of measure (Saxon and railroad)
Message-ID: <glit4l+f9p0@eGroups.com>

Geoff wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/38714>:

<< 
12 inches = 1 foot
3 feet = 1 yard
5280 feet = 1760 yards = 1 mile 
22 yards = 1 chain
10 chains = 1 furlong
8 furlongs = 1 mile

A rod is 5.5 yards, hence four to the furlong.
>>

This stuff (rod and chains) always makes my brain hurt. The rod is an
old Saxon measurement IIRc originally called the gryd, but IIRC the
chain was invented in the 18th century by some surveyor -- it was
literally a chain with each link one inch. If only he had named it the
'staff', perhaps this stuff would comfort me instead.

I think we agree on the length of the furlong (8 to the mile = 660
feet = 220 yards) and the chain (10 to the furlong = 66 feet = 22 yards). 

I think we agree on the LENGTH of the rod (you said 5.5 yards, and I
had worked it out as 16.5 feet as 5280 feet (mile) / 8 = 660 feet
(furlong) divided by 10 = 66 feet (chain) / 4 = 16.5 feet (rod).

But four of *my* 16.5 foot rods add up to 66 feet, which is one chain
rather than one furlong.

The original point of my post was that an acre, the amount of land
that one Saxon can plow in one day, is one furlong times IIRC 4 rods
which is 10 rods times 4 rods = 40 square rods, and slightly more
usefully, 660 feet * 66 feet = 43,560 square feet. The foot 'acre'
comes from the same root as 'agriculture'. I wonder how far apart the
furrows were i.e. how many furrows to an acre.

I got on Google and studied all this stuff a few years ago because I
was assigned to a project to create an electronic catalog of all the
assets for which Maintenance of Way was responsible. Part of the
catalog had to be the asset's location.

Manfred, the user assigned to be our liason, insisted that locations
in the Right of Way were identified by "chaining". I managed to get a
map from him of how Blue Line MOS (Minimum Operable Segment) 1 was
assigned to contracts, which had the locations in chaining (X + Y,
where X is an integer and Y is a decimal number, like "353 + 12.25").
He explained that X is the number of chains + Y is the number of feet
from some mark point, but denied knowing how long a chain is. He said
he thought it might be 66 yards.

Google revealed that a chain can be 66 feet, 100 feet, or 1oo meters
depending on whose chain it is. Also that 'hundredweight' can weight
160 ('long'), 120 ('short'), or 100 ('American') pounds or 100 kilo
('metric'). I remain very much struck by this lack of agreement of
meaning.

I got a sample map from Safety as part of required rail safety
training, which was marked in feet, and one station was on both
Safety's map and Manfred's map. Comparison between them revealed that
Blue Line's MOS-1's chain is 100 feet. They could have replaced the
"+" by multiplying times 100, like "35,312.25". 

Not that that would have done any good, as each contractor had used
their own mark point to begin the count, so at the exact same point,
the 'chaining' of the track was a totally different number than the
'chaining' of the catenary (the overhead copper cable that carries
electricity to the rail cars), and at least one of them had done his
counting in the OPPOSITE direction of everyone else. So, y'know, not
only could the same point be identified by several different
chainings, the same chaining could identify several different points.

The best I was able to do for identifying the location of assets was,
if they were in a station, I could specify the station number and room
code. If they were between stations, I could specify which two
stations they were between. I kind of screwed this up because I
started with the Red Line, whose railyard was at one end of the line,
and didn't realise that the other lines' railyards were *beside* the
main line somewhere, with a bunch of track to get cars from the
railyard to the main line and back. 





From gav_fiji at yahoo.com  Sun Jan 25 23:56:11 2009
From: gav_fiji at yahoo.com (Goddlefrood)
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 23:56:11 -0000
Subject: Old Measures (Was: Re: movies / books / rods)
In-Reply-To: <glh5fh+7q1n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gliu6r+kd49@eGroups.com>

> Geoff:
> Other than furlong, which gets used in horse racing, the 
> other equalities tend to be ignored. A rod is 5.5 yards, 
> hence four to the furlong.

Goddlefrood:

Interesting trivia, number 94:

1 Chain is the length of a cricket pitch, so that's used and 
well known. At least it's well known to cricket buffs.

Number 86:

1 acre = 4 perches = 40 roods. The Rood is the name of the race 
track at Chester, which is 8 furlongs long, iirc.

These measures are still used in land sale transactions, in Fiji 
anyway.




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Mon Jan 26 07:27:15 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 07:27:15 -0000
Subject: Old Measures (Was: Re: movies / books / rods)
In-Reply-To: <gliu6r+kd49@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gljokj+qmih@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Goddlefrood" <gav_fiji at ...> wrote:
>
> > Geoff:
> > Other than furlong, which gets used in horse racing, the 
> > other equalities tend to be ignored. A rod is 5.5 yards, 
> > hence four to the furlong.
> 
> Goddlefrood:
> 
> Interesting trivia, number 94:
> 
> 1 Chain is the length of a cricket pitch, so that's used and 
> well known. At least it's well known to cricket buffs.

GEoff:
As a cricket buff, I've not heard it used on commentaries. in 
fact, it had never occurred to me until you mentioned it!

We learn something new every day.




From eggplant107 at hotmail.com  Tue Jan 27 08:37:41 2009
From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107)
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 08:37:41 -0000
Subject: What next?
Message-ID: <glmh4l+e493@eGroups.com>

Now that every chapter of the last book has been reviewed it certainly
wouldn't hurt if we began again with chapter 1, as some of us, for one
reason or another, weren't available the first time around. I can't
see any downside to this idea, and if it doesn't work no harm done.

 Eggplant  





From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 27 20:05:43 2009
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 20:05:43 -0000
Subject: Eighth Grade Education - POETRY
In-Reply-To: <glg9a2+4big@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <glnpen+jr8l@eGroups.com>

---  "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:
>
> Steve wrote: 
> > One of my favorites is "The Drummer-Boy's Burial" by 
> > Anonymous from "The Illustrated Library of World Poetry".
> > 
> > All day long the storm of battle through the startled valley
> > swept;
> > All night long the stars in heaven o'vr the slain sad vigils
> > kept.
> > 
> > O the ghastly upturned faces gleaming whitely through the
> > night!
> > O the heaps of mangled corses in that dim sepulchral light!
> > 
> > ...
> > 
> > I find poems about war very moving for some reason. 
> > 
> > Steve/bluewizard
> >
> Carol responds:
> 
> I hope I don't ruin it for you, then, but the rhyme scheme is
> couplets (AA, BB) and the meter is trochaic heptameter (just 
> like "the Raven" but with one less trochee per line). Like 
> "The Raven, it's very regular but lacks the internal rhyme. 
> This kind of poem can sound very monotonous, especially today
> when so many poets write in free verse no rhyme or identifiable
> meter).
> 
> If you like war poetry, I'd recommend either Walt Whitman or
> Wilfred Owen.
> 
> ...

bboyminn:

Thanks for the Poems, both with very vivid imagery.

My problem isn't know about the internal structure and rhythm
of poetry. It is that the teachers I have in my many small
town schools never took it beyond that. When teaching rhythm
and metre of poems, the "...strict da-DUM da-DUM da-DUM da-DUM
da-DUM rhythm..." was so heavily emphasize and never countered
by the same poem in natural voice, that it is totally ingrained
in my head. Which means I can't read a poem without reverting
back to the primitive overemphasized 'da-DUM da-DUM', and it 
makes it difficult to understand the poem when it isn't in
natural flowing language. 

It also doesn't help that poems in books are written in short
phrased, when long sentences would lend themselves to a more
natural flow. Poetry when read my a master, such as the 'Raven'
read by James Earl Jones, do have the flow of natural language
while not ignoring the also natural rhythm of the verse. 

So, in my case, John Lithgow to the rescue, though still
difficult, it helps to hear the poem read by a professional
even if the professional only exists in my imagination.

I think part of this is the result of teacher who really had
no appreciation of poetry. It was just part of their job, and
they did their job in the least possible manner. We all managed
to 'pass the test', but none of us was instilled with a love
of poetry, because we never heard it read in natural language.

So, despite a growing 'like' for poetry, reading it is a 
struggle because I can't get that infernal rigid staccato
'da-DUM da-DUM' out of my head. Further compounded by the
poetry being printed in short disconnected phrases. 

Still, I do find poems that I like and wish I had more
resources for good poetry. But poetry is like modern music,
I can't afford to buy tons of crap just to find a few 
scraps of grace.

Steve/bluewizard





From willsonkmom at msn.com  Wed Jan 28 00:22:11 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 00:22:11 -0000
Subject: Eighth Grade Education - POETRY
In-Reply-To: <glnpen+jr8l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <glo8fj+to6k@eGroups.com>

 
>  Steve/bluewizard
> Still, I do find poems that I like and wish I had more
> resources for good poetry. But poetry is like modern music,
> I can't afford to buy tons of crap just to find a few 
> scraps of grace.


Potioncat:
I much prefer to hear poetry read (by someone who knows how) than to 
read it myself. It's difficult to find audio poetry collections. My 
library, otherwise very good, had very few to choose from.

I do have "When Love Speaks" which is a section of poems by Shakespeare 
read by RADA graduates. (I've lost count of the number of HP actors) 
I've also gotten one from the library called, "Stages" I think. Also 
read by a variety of actors. It is a collection of poems based on the 7 
stages of life, getting the theme and title from the Shakespeare poem.




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Wed Jan 28 03:00:55 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 03:00:55 -0000
Subject: Poetry and literature (was Re: Eighth Grade Education circa - 1895  - - (long)
In-Reply-To: <glfgi3+icvs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <glohp7+gk1m@eGroups.com>

Carol:
> identify the title and author of the poem:
> 
> O WILD West Wind, thou breath of Autumn's being	 
>   Thou from whose unseen presence the leaves dead	 
> Are driven like ghosts from an enchanter fleeing,

snip 
	 
> Or an easier one, at least in terms of author and title:
> 
> Once upon a midnight dreary, while I pondered, weak and weary,
> Over many a quaint and curious volume of forgotten lore,
> While I nodded, nearly napping, suddenly there came a tapping,
> As of someone gently rapping, rapping at my chamber door.
> " 'Tis some visitor," I muttered, "tapping at my chamber door;
> Only this, and nothing more."


Potioncat:
All I could have told you about the first was that it was a Romance 
Poet. Which I guessed because I remembered you had written about 
Romance poets before.

I knew Poe and the Raven at once.

My school district names most of the middle schools after American 
authors. Poe Middle School has a raven as the mascot. Not sure mascot 
is the best word. There are no sports teams or anyone dressed up. 
Symbol or image might be a better word.

My son goes to Washington Irving Middle School. He's been very 
annoyed that "some mother" was offended by the violent image of the 
Headless Horseman and caused the school to change its mascot. 

I asked if the new mascot was Rip Van Winkle. (Not a good idea in my 
opinion.) It became the rock because there's a large rock on the 
front lawn that is regularly painted by the art class. "Who wants a 
rock for a mascot!" my son complained. So he was very happy to 
announce that the student body president had managed to get the 
school to reverse its policy and to return the Headless Horseman as 
the symbol. I guess Headless had been out for about 4 years.

At Mark Twain Middle School, so my son says, someone complained about 
the "hoboes" who were the image, and had it changed to the panthers 
from the official "travellers."  It makes me think the parents who 
complain must not understand the connection between the image and the 
name. Sad, isn't it? 






From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 28 03:27:36 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 03:27:36 -0000
Subject: Eighth Grade Education - POETRY
In-Reply-To: <glnpen+jr8l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <glojb9+f55v@eGroups.com>

bboyminn:
> 
> Thanks for the Poems, both with very vivid imagery.

Carol responds:

You're welcome. You can find more poems by both poets online (I linked
you to a page of Whitman), or just pick up a copy of their works next
time you're in a bookstore that has a poetry section.

bboyminn: 
> My problem isn't know about the internal structure and rhythm of
poetry. It is that the teachers I have in my many small
> town schools never took it beyond that. When teaching rhythm and
metre of poems, the "...strict da-DUM da-DUM da-DUM da-DUM da-DUM
rhythm..." was so heavily emphasize and never countered by the same
poem in natural voice, that it is totally ingrained in my head. Which
means I can't read a poem without reverting back to the primitive
overemphasized 'da-DUM da-DUM', and it makes it difficult to
understand the poem when it isn't in natural flowing language. <snip>

Carol responds:

Granted, it's hard to get past the rhythm when you're dealing with
Poe, who *wants( you to feel those trochees pounding in your head.
It's easier with iambic poetry, especially when it doesn't have
end-stopped lines (sentences and lines stopping in the same place, for
example Pope's anti-female couplet (don't get mad at me, anybody!):

Nothing so true as what you once let fall,
"Most women have no characters at all."

Except for the slightly irregular first line (the first foot is a
trochee; the rest are iambs), it's easy to get carried away by the
rhythma and not hear what Pope is saying. (He deserves a witty rebuke
from a woman, but that's beside the point.)

But a lot of poetry is "enjambed"--that is, the phrase or sentence
doesn't end with the poetic line and is carried into the next line.
Those poems should be read with pauses at the caesuras, that is, the
natural pauses (often marked by commas) within the line. Even
Shelley's poem, with its old-fashioned diction (word choice) and
occasional inverted sentence structure, doesn't sound mechanical,
partly because he deliberately includes slant rhymes and slightly
irregular metric feet, but also because of the enjambment; the end of
the line doesn't mark the end of the thought. If you read these lines
out loud, pausing at the commas and after "thou" and "clarion,"
emphasizing the same words that you would emphasize if it were prose,
you'll sense the rhythm and other sound poems without being enslaved
to them. (Shelley, of course, was very familiar with all those poetic
debices and knew exactly what he was doing, crafting almost by
instinct because he knew them so well.)

                                O thou 
Who chariotest to their dark wintry bed 

The wing?d seeds, where they lie cold and low, 
Each like a corpse within its grave, until 
Thine azure sister of the Spring shall blow 

Her clarion o'er the dreaming earth,

But even end-stopped lines in the hands of a master can sound natural,
especially if they happen to be blank verse (unrhymed iambic
pentameter) from a Shakespeare play. Here's Romeo's soliloquy beneath
Juliet's balcony. You've read it before, but it's famous for good reason:

But soft! what light through yonder window breaks?
It is the east, and Juliet is the sun!--
Arise, fair sun, and kill the envious moon,
Who is already sick and pale with grief,
That thou her maid art far more fair than she:
Be not her maid, since she is envious;
Her vestal livery is but sick and green,
And none but fools do wear it; cast it off.--
It is my lady; O, it is my love!
O, that she knew she were!--
She speaks, yet she says nothing: what of that?
Her eye discourses, I will answer it.--
I am too bold, 'tis not to me she speaks:
Two of the fairest stars in all the heaven,
Having some business, do entreat her eyes
To twinkle in their spheres till they return.
What if her eyes were there, they in her head?
The brightness of her cheek would shame those stars,
As daylight doth a lamp; her eyes in heaven
Would through the airy region stream so bright
That birds would sing and think it were not night.--
See how she leans her cheek upon her hand!
O that I were a glove upon that hand,
That I might touch that cheek!

Just try reading it aloud as if you were a romantic teenage boy in
love with a girl he's not allowed to speak to or associate with,
emphasizing the words in a natural way (and not paying too much
attention to the grotesqueness of Juliet's eyes twinkling in the
heavens while two bright stars fill their place!). If only teenage
boys spent their time composing love poetry these days. (Then, again,I
wouldn't want to be Romeo's mother, worrying about him and his friends
duelling in the streets with real swords. Puts duelling with wands in
the corridors of Hogwarts to shame in terms of danger.

Carol, who had nearly forgotten how enjoyable poetry can be  




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 28 03:44:15 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 03:44:15 -0000
Subject: Poetry and literature (was Re: Eighth Grade Education circa - 1895  - - (long)
In-Reply-To: <glohp7+gk1m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <glokaf+v4hn@eGroups.com>


> Potioncat wrote:
> All I could have told you about the first was that it was a Romance
Poet. Which I guessed because I remembered you had written about
Romance poets before.

Carol responds:
Not Romance. Romantic. The English Romantic poets had ties to German
Romanticism, especially Goethe. ("Roman" means "novel," as you
probably remember from "bildungsroman.") 
> 
> I knew Poe and the Raven at once.
> 
> My school district names most of the middle schools after American
authors. Poe Middle School has a raven as the mascot. <snip> 
> Symbol or image might be a better word.
> 
> My son goes to Washington Irving Middle School. He's been very 
> annoyed that "some mother" was offended by the violent image of the 
> Headless Horseman and caused the school to change its mascot. 
> 
> I asked if the new mascot was Rip Van Winkle. (Not a good idea in my 
> opinion.) It became the rock because there's a large rock on the 
> front lawn that is regularly painted by the art class. "Who wants a 
> rock for a mascot!" my son complained. So he was very happy to 
> announce that the student body president had managed to get the 
> school to reverse its policy and to return the Headless Horseman as 
> the symbol. I guess Headless had been out for about 4 years.

Carol:
Hooray for schools named after authors and mascots (or symbols) from
their books, and boo! to the morons who condemn them without
understanding them (or ever having read the books). Kids love "The
Headless Horseman," or, at least, boys do. If it gets them to read,
why criticize it? And the story, in any case, is a lot less violent
than the programs kids watch on TV. Who wants a rock for a mascot?" is
right!

Potioncat: 
> At Mark Twain Middle School, so my son says, someone complained
about the "hoboes" who were the image, and had it changed to the
panthers from the official "travellers."  It makes me think the
parents who complain must not understand the connection between the
image and the  name. Sad, isn't it?

Carol:
Very! And what do panthers have to do with Mark Twain? How about
substituting the jumping frog of Calaveras County? Surely, no one
could object to that.

Carol, noting that schools here seem to be named after school board
members whose names have no meaning for the students, or geographical
features like mountain ranges





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 28 03:49:04 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 03:49:04 -0000
Subject: Eighth Grade Education - POETRY
In-Reply-To: <glojb9+f55v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <glokjg+r8g8@eGroups.com>

Carol earlier:
<snip>
> If you read these lines out loud, pausing at the commas and after
"thou" and "clarion," emphasizing the same words that you would
emphasize if it were prose, you'll sense the rhythm and other sound
poems without being enslaved to them. <snip>

Carol: 

Sorry to answer myself, but this line is unintelligble as I originally
wrote it. "Sound poems" should be "sound effects."

Carol, wondering why, just once, she can't type exactly what she means




From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Wed Jan 28 03:53:30 2009
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 03:53:30 -0000
Subject: Poetry and literature (was Re: Eighth Grade Education circa - 1895  - - (long)
In-Reply-To: <glohp7+gk1m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <glokrq+ncg8@eGroups.com>

> Potioncat:

> My son goes to Washington Irving Middle School. He's been very 
> annoyed that "some mother" was offended by the violent image of the 
> Headless Horseman and caused the school to change its mascot. 
> 
> I asked if the new mascot was Rip Van Winkle. (Not a good idea in 
my 
> opinion.) It became the rock because there's a large rock on the 
> front lawn that is regularly painted by the art class. "Who wants a 
> rock for a mascot!" my son complained. So he was very happy to 
> announce that the student body president had managed to get the 
> school to reverse its policy and to return the Headless Horseman as 
> the symbol. I guess Headless had been out for about 4 years.
> 
> At Mark Twain Middle School, so my son says, someone complained 
about 
> the "hoboes" who were the image, and had it changed to the panthers 
> from the official "travellers."  It makes me think the parents who 
> complain must not understand the connection between the image and 
the 
> name. Sad, isn't it?

Magpie:
Wow, I'm so glad I'm hearing this story when the mascot had already 
been changed back or it would have continued to bother me. Not only 
are they not getting the clever connection to the author's work but 
they don't seem to have noticed that mascots are often violent. 
That's the point.

-m (who adapted Legend of Sleepy Hollow once into a musical and now 
feels personally protective of the headless Hessian!)




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Wed Jan 28 07:32:36 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 07:32:36 -0000
Subject: Eighth Grade Education - POETRY
In-Reply-To: <glojb9+f55v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <glp1mk+5k74@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:

Carol: 
> Granted, it's hard to get past the rhythm when you're dealing with
> Poe...

Geoff:
Hmm. On that topic, ever tried reading Longfellow's "Hiawatha"?




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 28 16:36:18 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 16:36:18 -0000
Subject: JKR and Bobby Burns
Message-ID: <glq1i2+bcg7@eGroups.com>

January 25 was the Scottish poet Robert Burns's 250th birthday--or the
250th anniversary of his birth, if you prefer. In a 1787 letter to the
London Scottish novelist Dr John Moore, Burns recalled being
entertained as a child by an elderly female relative with "the largest
collection in the county of tales and songs concerning devils, ghosts,
fairies, brownies, witches, warlocks, spunkies, kelpies, elf-candles,
dead-lights, wraiths, apparitions, cantraips, giants, inchanted [sic]
towers, dragons and other trumpery."  I wonder whether a certain very
rich author who now lives in Scotland heard or read similar tales. I
realize that she was born in Bristol and that her parent were both
Londoners, but except for devils, spunkies, dead-lights, and
cantraips, Burns's list matches pretty closely the "trumpery" that
appears in the HP stories. (I didn't include elf-candles because I
think they're the same thing as hinkypunks.)

Carol, noting that Steve (bboyminn) would probably enjoy Burns's
poetry if he can get past the Scots dialect ("O wad some power the
giftie gie us/ to see oursels as ithers see us!")




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 28 16:49:29 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 16:49:29 -0000
Subject: Eighth Grade Education - POETRY
In-Reply-To: <glp1mk+5k74@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <glq2ap+skp0@eGroups.com>

Carol: 
> > Granted, it's hard to get past the rhythm when you're dealing with
Poe...
> 
> Geoff:
> Hmm. On that topic, ever tried reading Longfellow's "Hiawatha"?
>
Carol:

How true! 
By' the/ shores' of/ Gitch' e/ Gu' me
By the/ shi' ning/ Big' Sea/ Wa' ter

Very regular trochaic tetrameter. The meter was probably determined by
the name Hiawatha (Hi' a/ wa' tha), which, by itself, is trochaic dimeter.

I confess that I've read only parts of it, and only because it was
required reading!

Carol, who thinks that three-year-olds, who love rhythm, would
probably appreciate an illustrated and highly condensed version of
that poem









From n2fgc at arrl.net  Wed Jan 28 17:18:47 2009
From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force)
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 12:18:47 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Poetry and literature (was Re: Eighth Grade Education circa - 1895  - - (long)
In-Reply-To: <glokaf+v4hn@eGroups.com>
References: <glohp7+gk1m@eGroups.com> <glokaf+v4hn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <0375F61AAA064A4CB949538DE6ACB928@musiclee>

| Carol:
| Very! And what do panthers have to do with Mark Twain? How about
| substituting the jumping frog of Calaveras County? Surely, no one
| could object to that.

[Lee]:
Oh yeah?  Uh, if I remember, it said, "Ketched me a frog..."  Oops! Here
come all the Animal Rights people to object to (1) "Ketchin' a frog" and (2)
enslaving it to jump at your will and not its own.  Do I see a $50.00 fine
for abusing that poor little froggy? <Evil Grin>

Cheers,

Lee :-)

Do not walk behind me,    | Lee Storm
I may not care to lead;   | N2FGC
Do not walk before me,    | n2fgc at arrl.net (or)
I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at optonline.net
Walk beside me, and be my friend.




From n2fgc at arrl.net  Wed Jan 28 17:33:13 2009
From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force)
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 12:33:13 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] JKR and Bobby Burns
In-Reply-To: <glq1i2+bcg7@eGroups.com>
References: <glq1i2+bcg7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <6DEEADCDF68442EFA3E0EC7EA81B9606@musiclee>

[Carol]:
| January 25 was the Scottish poet Robert Burns's 250th birthday--or the
| 250th anniversary of his birth, if you prefer.

[Lee]:
Aw Blast!  I missed Bobbie Burns Day?  Drat! I was planning to make Scotch
Eggs and Shortbread.  My date reminder didn't go off...Rotters!  Oh,
well...I'll have to celebrate a bit late, I guess. <Sigh>

[Carol]:
 In a 1787 letter to the
| London Scottish novelist Dr John Moore, Burns recalled being
| entertained as a child by an elderly female relative with "the largest
| collection in the county of tales and songs concerning devils, ghosts,
| fairies, brownies, witches, warlocks, spunkies, kelpies, elf-candles,
| dead-lights, wraiths, apparitions, cantraips, giants, inchanted [sic]
| towers, dragons and other trumpery."  I wonder whether a certain very
| rich author who now lives in Scotland heard or read similar tales. I
| realize that she was born in Bristol and that her parent were both
| Londoners, but except for devils, spunkies, dead-lights, and
| cantraips, Burns's list matches pretty closely the "trumpery" that
| appears in the HP stories. (I didn't include elf-candles because I
| think they're the same thing as hinkypunks.)

[Lee]:
Hmm...some might think the DEs are Devils. :-)  I'm not sure what a spunky
is.  Dead-lights...well, guess there's more of that in LOTR, but the
Infiri...maybe??? A bit of a stretch, but...

[Carol]:
Carol, noting that Steve (bboyminn) would probably enjoy Burns's
| poetry if he can get past the Scots dialect ("O wad some power the
| giftie gie us/ to see oursels as ithers see us!")

[Lee]:
Now, that would shake up the world...seeing ourselves as others see us.
We'd either have to shape up or ship out. :-)

Peace,
Lee :-)




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 28 17:50:59 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 17:50:59 -0000
Subject: Poetry and literature (was Re: Eighth Grade Education circa - 1895  - - (long)
In-Reply-To: <0375F61AAA064A4CB949538DE6ACB928@musiclee>
Message-ID: <glq5u3+93h3@eGroups.com>

Carol earlier:
> > How about substituting the jumping frog of Calaveras County?
Surely, no one could object to that.
> 
Lee responded:
> Oh yeah?  Uh, if I remember, it said, "Ketched me a frog..."  Oops!
Here come all the Animal Rights people to object to (1) "Ketchin' a
frog" and (2) enslaving it to jump at your will and not its own.  Do I
see a $50.00 fine for abusing that poor little froggy? <Evil Grin>

Carol responds:

LOL! 

Actually, the line is "Smiley he went to the swamp and slopped around
in the mud for a long time, and finally he ketched a frog, and fetched
him in, and give him to this feller. . . ."

Fortunately, the people who object to these mascots don't seem to have
read the books or stories they're based on. If they had, they'd
probably complain that the school should change its name because the
bad grammar and spelling of Twain's narrators sets a bad example for
the students!

Carol, thanking Lee for the chuckle and thinking that Lee has the
psychology of these complainers down pat




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 28 18:08:27 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 18:08:27 -0000
Subject: Just wanted to share this
Message-ID: <glq6ur+gj6j@eGroups.com>

A friend of mine (the managing editor of the editing service I work
with most often) just sent me this prayer, not knowing whether I was
religious or not but just wanting to share it with me because it was
lovely and had brought her hope in hard times. I wanted to share it
with all of you for the same reason in hopes that some of you will
find comfort in it and those who aren't religious will understand that
I'm not trying to force my very nebulous and undefined religion on them:

St. Theresa's Prayer:

May today there be peace within. May you trust that you are exactly
where you are meant to be. May you not forget the infinite
possibilities that are born of faith in yourself and others. May you
use the gifts that you have received, and pass on the love that has
been given to you. May you be content with yourself just the way you
are. Let this knowledge settle into your bones, and allow your soul
the freedom to sing, dance, praise and love. It is there for each and
every one of us.

I'm not sure that St. Theresa ever said any such prayer since I think
she would have addressed God directly, but I still like it and find it
comforting.

Carol, not sure that being content with ourselves just as we are is
necessarily a good thing but liking the little prayer, anyway





From n2fgc at arrl.net  Wed Jan 28 18:35:05 2009
From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force)
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 13:35:05 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Poetry and literature (was Re: Eighth Grade Education circa - 1895  - - (long)
In-Reply-To: <glq5u3+93h3@eGroups.com>
References: <0375F61AAA064A4CB949538DE6ACB928@musiclee> <glq5u3+93h3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4B8661EB14F649009514F58A3CB903C2@musiclee>

[Carol]:
| Fortunately, the people who object to these mascots don't seem to have
| read the books or stories they're based on. If they had, they'd
| probably complain that the school should change its name because the
| bad grammar and spelling of Twain's narrators sets a bad example for
| the students!

[Lee]:
Not only that, but with books like "Tom Sawyer" and "Huckleberry Fin,"
you've got racism and stereotype characters (Here come de ACLU or whatever
dat bunch be). :-)

| Carol, thanking Lee for the chuckle and thinking that Lee has the
| psychology of these complainers down pat

[Lee]:
Well, IMHO, people *need* something to act against, as silly as that sounds.
It's something that many people just need to do...they need to find
something to complain about or strike out so that they feel they're doing
something to improve life, the universe and everything.  Like I say, silly!

Oh, well, I have things to do to improve the quality of life, the universe
and everything...I needs be shovelin' my steps! :-)

Peace, and don't forget your towel, and Don't Panic!!!

Lee :-)

Do not walk behind me,    | Lee Storm
I may not care to lead;   | N2FGC
Do not walk before me,    | n2fgc at arrl.net (or)
I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at optonline.net
Walk beside me, and be my friend.




From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Wed Jan 28 21:22:22 2009
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 21:22:22 -0000
Subject: Poetry and literature (was Re: Eighth Grade Education circa - 1895  - - (long)
In-Reply-To: <4B8661EB14F649009514F58A3CB903C2@musiclee>
Message-ID: <glqiae+uq9r@eGroups.com>

> [Carol]:
> | Fortunately, the people who object to these mascots don't seem to 
have
> | read the books or stories they're based on. If they had, they'd
> | probably complain that the school should change its name because the
> | bad grammar and spelling of Twain's narrators sets a bad example for
> | the students!
> 
> [Lee]:
> Not only that, but with books like "Tom Sawyer" and "Huckleberry Fin,"
> you've got racism and stereotype characters (Here come de ACLU or 
whatever
> dat bunch be). :-)

Magpie:
I believe the ACLU has defended the use of Huck Finn in libraries and 
schools on many occasions. 

-m




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Wed Jan 28 23:05:54 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 23:05:54 -0000
Subject: JKR and Bobby Burns
In-Reply-To: <6DEEADCDF68442EFA3E0EC7EA81B9606@musiclee>
Message-ID: <glqoci+521k@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Lee Storm \(God Is The Healing Force" 
<n2fgc at ...> wrote:
>
> [Carol]:
> | January 25 was the Scottish poet Robert Burns's 250th birthday--or the
> | 250th anniversary of his birth, if you prefer.
> 
> [Lee]:
> Aw Blast!  I missed Bobbie Burns Day?  Drat! I was planning to make Scotch
> Eggs and Shortbread.  My date reminder didn't go off...Rotters!  Oh,
> well...I'll have to celebrate a bit late, I guess. <Sigh>

Geoff:
Ah, well, as Rabbie himself put it:
"The best laid plans of mice and men gang aft agley..."




From s_ings at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 28 23:26:08 2009
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 15:26:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Belated Happy Birthday to Gail!
Message-ID: <973760.49075.qm@web63404.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

*sneaks into the party room, scurrying about madly with streamers and balloons trailing*

Yes, I know, this is a VERY belated birthday party we're having here. I'm asking you all to help me make this a spectacular shindig to compensate for my tardiness.

As usual drinks and nibblies are on the side tables. I'll buy the first round to make up for my absentmindedness.

Our birthday honouree from the 25th is Gail. Belated birthday owls can be sent care of this list or directly to: houseofbohacek at earthlink.net

Gail, I'm so sorry this is late. I made an extra special cake for you to make up for it. 

*slaps Jen's fingers as she reaches for a taste of the icing on the very large, slightly teetery, multi-coloured cake*

Let's turn up the music and get things going. We'll save some food and fun for those who, like myself, have to dig out of a snowstorm to get to the party!

Gail, I hope your day very special and filled with magic.

Happy Birthday, Gail!

Sheryll the absentminded Birthday Elf


      __________________________________________________________________
Get a sneak peak at messages with a handy reading pane with All new Yahoo! Mail: http://ca.promos.yahoo.com/newmail/overview2/



From n2fgc at arrl.net  Fri Jan 30 04:19:45 2009
From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force)
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 23:19:45 -0500
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Just wanted to share this
In-Reply-To: <glq6ur+gj6j@eGroups.com>
References: <glq6ur+gj6j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <1F7649045C164E7389D5CF449CE7491A@musiclee>

[Carol]:
| I'm not sure that St. Theresa ever said any such prayer since I think
| she would have addressed God directly, but I still like it and find it
| comforting.

[Lee]:
Yes, she would in pray except directly to God; I would call that a
benediction or blessing, praying in her heart that God would grant the
benediction she's pronouncing to/over those in her life or around her.

And, another question: Which St. Theresa? There are two, one of whom is
called "The Little Flower," and one who is Theresa of Avilla, I think.  And
if Mother Theresa is canonized, then there will be three.  I'm not RC, but I
was when I was young.

Actually, I have to admit I love the huge Crucifixes the nuns used to wear
back and that went out of style in the mid 1970's, I think.  I'd *Love* to
get one of those!! :-)

I leave you with the famous Irish blessing:
May the road rise to meet you;
May the wind be always at your back;
May the sun shine warm upon your face;
May the rain fall soft upon your fields;
And until we meet again,
May God hold you in the palm of His hand.

Lee :-)




From heidi8 at gmail.com  Fri Jan 30 04:33:20 2009
From: heidi8 at gmail.com (Heidi Tandy)
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 23:33:20 -0500
Subject: AZKATRAZ Programming Proposal Submission Deadline Extended
Message-ID: <5913e6f80901292033x5eaa7987qa4ec18ce979e3ed6@mail.gmail.com>

Given the ice storms and power failures across parts of the United
States this week, we've extended the programming submission deadline
to 11:59 PM, San Francisco time, on February 9, 2009.

And to cap off the count-down to the submission deadline, we'll be
hosting a chat on Saturday, January 31st from noon EST to 3:00 PM
(noon PST) and from 9:00 PM until midnight (EST) - follow the
instructions we'll put on our home page that morning - and again from
12 noon EST to 3:00 PM (noon PST) on Sunday, February 1st. Come in any
time and one of the chairs or programming committee chairs will answer
your questions about panels, roundtables, papers and workshops, help
you brainstorm or draft your summary, talk about content for bios, and
more.

Please let us know if you have any questions, and for more information
about AZKATRAZ, set to take place in San Francisco in tandem with the
release of HBP: The Movie from July 17 - 21, 2009, visit
http://www.hp2009.org -
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=11207479955 -
http://azkatraz.livejournal.com .



From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Fri Jan 30 21:14:05 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 21:14:05 -0000
Subject: Thomas Sniegoski Fallen series
Message-ID: <glvqit+tdko@eGroups.com>

So I for the last few days I had been reading these YA series, also 
about the chosen one with an erm... interesting destiny.

My request for help is well, basically where do I get the fourth book, 
because bizarelly the fourth book seems to be out of print, while 
others are very much not, first three books I mean.

Amazon's obnoxious third party sellers of course see the oportunity and 
sell this book starting from $144.95.

But I am more interested where I can get it for the price approaching 
normal one - same as other three cost, lol ( they cost $5.99 and the 
most expensive I believe $14.99)

Thanks guys, much appreciated!

Alla




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Sat Jan 31 02:59:39 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 02:59:39 -0000
Subject: Thomas Sniegoski Fallen series
In-Reply-To: <glvqit+tdko@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gm0eqr+cj13@eGroups.com>

"dumbledore11214" <dumbledore11214 at ...> wrote:
>
> So I for the last few days I had been reading these YA series, also 
> about the chosen one with an erm... interesting destiny.
> 
> My request for help is well, basically where do I get the fourth 
book, 
> because bizarelly the fourth book seems to be out of print, while 
> others are very much not, first three books I mean.

Potioncat:
Do you want to buy it, or just read it? My first choice is to see if 
the local library has it, or not, if they can get it from another 
library system.

Potioncat, who really should have been a librarian.




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 31 03:06:04 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 03:06:04 -0000
Subject: Thomas Sniegoski Fallen series
In-Reply-To: <gm0eqr+cj13@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gm0f6s+89c7@eGroups.com>

> Potioncat:
> Do you want to buy it, or just read it? My first choice is to see if 
> the local library has it, or not, if they can get it from another 
> library system.
> 
> Potioncat, who really should have been a librarian.
>

Alla:

Both, but I will settle on just reading it first. I want to know the 
ending BADLY :)

Good idea to check if they can order, DUH Alla. I did not find it on 
the shelf and gave up.

Thanks dear library lady ;)




From predigirl1 at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 31 10:24:40 2009
From: predigirl1 at yahoo.com (Alex Hogan)
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 10:24:40 -0000
Subject: WayOT: "Repo! The Genetic Opera"
Message-ID: <gm18t8+hiep@eGroups.com>

Have you SEEN this?? It is the most amazing movie ever! I have loved it 
since September, when I found it on an Anthony Stewart Head(Giles 
from "Buffy")site. Since then I have become a HUGE fan! People were 
actually doing street performances in the larger cities before it even 
opened (thanks, You Tube!), just to spread word of mouth. There were 
people dressed up as the characters and they had the songs memorized at 
the premiers. I tell everyone with even a slightly intelligent face 
about the movie. This generation's RHPS without so much humor. But it 
has it's moments. It's an opera! What did you expect? A happy ending?

Alex Hogan




From annemehr at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 31 13:03:24 2009
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (Annemehr)
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 13:03:24 -0000
Subject: WayOT: "Repo! The Genetic Opera"
In-Reply-To: <gm18t8+hiep@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gm1i6s+trst@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Alex Hogan" <predigirl1 at ...> 
wrote:
>
> Have you SEEN this?? It is the most amazing movie ever! I have loved 
it 
> since September, when I found it on an Anthony Stewart Head(Giles 
> from "Buffy")site. Since then I have become a HUGE fan! People were 
> actually doing street performances in the larger cities before it 
even 
> opened (thanks, You Tube!), just to spread word of mouth. There were 
> people dressed up as the characters and they had the songs memorized 
at 
> the premiers. I tell everyone with even a slightly intelligent face 
> about the movie. This generation's RHPS without so much humor. But it 
> has it's moments. It's an opera! What did you expect? A happy ending?
> 
> Alex Hogan
>

No, I haven't seen it myself, but my sixteen year old daughter is a 
huge fan of Repo *and* Rocky Horror.  But Repo isn't playing 
continuously around here, like RHPS used to, so she's only seen it once.

They did a second run of Repo just recently, but it was midweek, during 
everyone's midterms, so they couldn't go.

Annemehr