From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Thu Jul  2 03:46:15 2009
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2009 03:46:15 -0000
Subject: Mould-on-the-Wold
Message-ID: <h2hai7+ljes@eGroups.com>

Can anyone tell me what "Mould-on-the-Wold" means (mostly "Mould" :-))? It's the village where Dumbledore's family used to live before they moved to Godric's Hollow. Dictionaries suggest "mould"  means either "loose earth", or "fungus". Which meaning is used here? Thanks.


zanooda




From gav_fiji at yahoo.com  Thu Jul  2 05:05:10 2009
From: gav_fiji at yahoo.com (Goddlefrood)
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2009 05:05:10 -0000
Subject: Mould-on-the-Wold
In-Reply-To: <h2hai7+ljes@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h2hf66+ksjq@eGroups.com>

> Zanooda:
> Can anyone tell me what "Mould-on-the-Wold" means (mostly "Mould" 
> :-))?

Goddlefrood:

I'd say it was the fungal meaning that was meant. It's a pun on 
the real place called Stow-on-the-Wold. The Wold being a river.




From n2fgc at arrl.net  Thu Jul  2 12:44:17 2009
From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force))
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 08:44:17 -0400
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Mould-on-the-Wold
In-Reply-To: <h2hf66+ksjq@eGroups.com>
References: <h2hai7+ljes@eGroups.com> <h2hf66+ksjq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <AEFB008A6D064E858201187FBC2215FE@FRODO>

| > Zanooda:
| > Can anyone tell me what "Mould-on-the-Wold" means (mostly "Mould" 
| > :-))?
| 
| Goddlefrood:
| I'd say it was the fungal meaning that was meant. It's a pun on 
| the real place called Stow-on-the-Wold. The Wold being a river.

[Lee]:
Interesting!  I thought "Wold" would be like "Wald" or "Wood" (as in forest)
from the German, as in Schwatswald or Schwatzwald, etc.

Cheers,

Lee :-)

Do not walk behind me,    | Lee Storm
I may not care to lead;   | N2FGC
Do not walk before me,    | n2fgc at arrl.net (or)
I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at optonline.net
Walk beside me, and be my friend.




From s_ings at yahoo.com  Thu Jul  2 13:46:15 2009
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 06:46:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Birthdays x 2!
Message-ID: <178212.19472.qm@web63408.mail.re1.yahoo.com>


*a small elf scurries about the room, hanging black streamers, blowing up balloons and singing quietly "Snape, Snape, Snape, Snape"*

What, you think I'm going overboard with the Snape decorations? The life-size Snape posters are too much? Pshaw! <vbeg>

We have 2 birthday honourees to party with today. Jenn (Poppywannab) celebrated on June 28 and today is our very own premiere Snapeologist - Amanda. Hence the decorations. :)

Birthday owls can be sent care of this list or directly to Jenn at: jenn at phynn-phamily.us and to Amanda at: editor at texas.net

The nibblies are on the table, the bar is open. I'm sure it's time to drink *somewhere* in the world, even if it's not yet 10 a.m. here. :)

I hope both your days are/were very special and bring good health and many blessings.

Hey, you, fingers out of the icing! Sheesh, can't trust anyone near a nice, fresh cake these days. :D

Happy Birthday, Jenn!
Happy Birthday, Amanda!

Btw, Amanda, I tried to get Alan Rickman here but he said something about not wanting to be near those crazy people. Think he's talking about us? 

Sheryll, who got to hang out with Amanda on the weekend :D
Join me at Sirens this fall!  http://www.sirensconference.org/


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From joeydebs at yahoo.com  Thu Jul  2 16:56:54 2009
From: joeydebs at yahoo.com (Debi)
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2009 16:56:54 -0000
Subject: Mould-on-the-Wold
In-Reply-To: <AEFB008A6D064E858201187FBC2215FE@FRODO>
Message-ID: <h2iosm+v5e8@eGroups.com>

Zanooda:
<snip>
> | > Can anyone tell me what "Mould-on-the-Wold" means (mostly "Mould" 
> | > :-))?


It's probably a bit of a pun on English village names - there are some strange ones out there - because "Mould" and "Wold" rhyme (at least in my southern English accent they do).

Incidentally the term "wold" means hills (Wikipedia) though according to Wikitionary is does come from the Old English word for "forest". Don't ask me why it's now come to stand for places WITHOUT a forest...God Bless English, she seems designed specifically to confuse.

It is related to the German "wald" but as Wikitionary describes it, it's a 'false friend' because "wald" still means forest and "wold" no longer does.

Many of the places - including Stow - with the name "wold" in them seem to be in ranges of hills. Stow is in the Cotswolds.




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Thu Jul  2 21:10:35 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2009 21:10:35 -0000
Subject: Mould-on-the-Wold
In-Reply-To: <AEFB008A6D064E858201187FBC2215FE@FRODO>
Message-ID: <h2j7ob+gufq@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Lee Storm \(God Is The Healing Force\)" <n2fgc at ...> wrote:
>
> | > Zanooda:
> | > Can anyone tell me what "Mould-on-the-Wold" means (mostly "Mould" 
> | > :-))?
> | 
> | Goddlefrood:
> | I'd say it was the fungal meaning that was meant. It's a pun on 
> | the real place called Stow-on-the-Wold. The Wold being a river.
> 
> [Lee]:
> Interesting!  I thought "Wold" would be like "Wald" or "Wood" (as in forest)
> from the German, as in Schwatswald or Schwatzwald, etc.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Lee :-)

Geoff:
Schwartzwald or Schwarzwald (both possible) is the word you wanted = "Black Forest" 

My dictionary defines "Wold" as:
noun (especially in British place names) a piece of high, open, 
uncultivated land or moor. 

Please note that Stow is in the CotsWOLDs.

Re another comment from Debi. Forest in English has two meanings. 
The more usual is that of dense woodland but there is a secondary meaning 
- that of land reserved as a royal hunting area. Examples include The 
New Forest and Exmoor Forest.

Just for the lovers of quaint English town names: Stow-on-the-Wold is 
about halfway between Bourton-on-the-Water and Moreton-in-Marsh 
(no 'the').




From d2dmiles at yahoo.de  Thu Jul  2 21:21:23 2009
From: d2dmiles at yahoo.de (Miles)
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 23:21:23 +0200
Subject: Mould-on-the-Wold
References: <h2j7ob+gufq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <5543632DFA9841CE8628DB2E47E1DB7C@miles>

Geoff Bannister wrote:
> Schwartzwald or Schwarzwald (both possible) is the word you wanted =
> "Black Forest"

Miles (the jumping-in wisenheimer)
It's only Schwarzwald, there is no variation with an added t. I only came 
across "schwartz" in English books so far ;).

Miles, jumping out again 





From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Thu Jul  2 22:41:14 2009
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2009 22:41:14 -0000
Subject: Mould-on-the-Wold
In-Reply-To: <h2iosm+v5e8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h2jd2a+cpd2@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Debi" <joeydebs at ...> wrote:

> It's probably a bit of a pun on English village names - 
> there are some strange ones out there


zanooda:

Thanks, everybody :-). So you all agree that "mould" would mean "fungus" here?




From tonks_op at yahoo.com  Fri Jul  3 06:42:23 2009
From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks)
Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2009 06:42:23 -0000
Subject: Birthdays x 2!
In-Reply-To: <178212.19472.qm@web63408.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <h2k98f+7fal@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Sheryll Townsend <s_ings at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> *a small elf scurries about the room, hanging black streamers, blowing up balloons and singing quietly "Snape, Snape, Snape, Snape"*
> 
> What, you think I'm going overboard with the Snape decorations? The life-size Snape posters are too much? Pshaw! <vbeg>

Tonks:
Hey Sheryll, you know there really are life size Snape standups don't you? They are out of stock, but I am going to get one when they get them back. And what a really want, and have for sometime, is the life size Dobby, but it is around $350.00, so I will have to wait even longer. But Snape is only $30.00!

Happy Birthday guys!!

Tonks_op




From s_ings at yahoo.com  Fri Jul  3 14:53:22 2009
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 07:53:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Happy Birthday Debbie and Rebecca!
Message-ID: <474999.86095.qm@web63406.mail.re1.yahoo.com>


*a lone elf putters arounds the party room, removing the Snape decorations and replacing them with brightly coloured streamers and balloons*

Hmmm... they seem to think these are important people in the US, they've made a holiday of their birthdays. I think this calls for an extra touch.

*adds twinkly lights and suspends glittery confetti above the dance floor*

There, that ought to do the trick.

Grab your favourite drink and don't forget about the nibblies on the side table!

Today's birthday honourees are Rebecca and our very own List Elf, Debbie! Birthday owls can be sent care of this list or directly to Debbie at: elfundeb at comcast.net and to Rebecca at GypseeLynn at yahoo.com

I hope both of you have magical days and take full advantage of any time off work!

Ooops, nearly forgot something very important!

*pops out and returns quickly with two towering, if somewhat lopsided, multicoloured cakes*

There, everything is in place. 

Happy Birthday, Debbie!
Happy Birthday, Rebecca!

Sheryll the Birthday Elf
Join me at Sirens this fall!  http://www.sirensconference.org/


      __________________________________________________________________
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http://www.flickr.com/gift/



From s_ings at yahoo.com  Fri Jul  3 14:57:41 2009
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 07:57:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Birthdays x 2!
Message-ID: <828418.18044.qm@web63402.mail.re1.yahoo.com>


> Tonks:
> Hey Sheryll, you know there really are life size Snape
> standups don't you? They are out of stock, but I am going to
> get one when they get them back. And what a really want, and
> have for sometime, is the life size Dobby, but it is around
> $350.00, so I will have to wait even longer. But Snape is
> only $30.00!
> 
> Happy Birthday guys!!
> 

Sheryll:

I did *not* know there were life size Snape standups! OMG, what kind of Snape fan am I? This will surely get my Snapefan membership revoked! <vbg>

I'd love to add one to my collection of HP stuff, but I think Andy would kill me. He's tolerant enough to hang my wooden Convention Alley 04 pub sign in the dining room but I think he'd draw the line at a life-sized Snape. :D

Sheryll, knowing she won't get off early from the dreaded 1-9 midshift today because it's pouring rain outside


      __________________________________________________________________
The new Internet Explorer? 8 - Faster, safer, easier.  Optimized for Yahoo!  Get it Now for Free! at http://downloads.yahoo.com/ca/internetexplorer/



From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri Jul  3 16:05:33 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2009 16:05:33 -0000
Subject: Mould-on-the-Wold
In-Reply-To: <h2jd2a+cpd2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h2la8d+10ilm@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "zanooda2" <zanooda2 at ...> wrote:
>
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Debi" <joeydebs@> wrote:
> 
> > It's probably a bit of a pun on English village names - 
> > there are some strange ones out there
> 
> 
> zanooda:
> 
> Thanks, everybody :-). So you all agree that "mould" would mean "fungus" here?
>
Carol responds:

I'm not British, but I doubt that even Wizards would name a village after a fungus. According to Merriam-Webster Online, "mold" ([robably spelled "mould" in British English?) originally meant "soil" or "ground":

"Function:
    noun 
"Etymology:
    Middle English, from Old English molde; akin to Old High German molta soil, Latin molere to grind ? more at meal
"Date:
    before 12th century

"1: crumbling soft friable earth suited to plant growth: soil; especially: soil rich in humus ? compare leaf mold 2 dialect British a: the surface of the earth: ground b: the earth of the burying ground 3 archaic: earth that is the substance of the human body <be merciful great Duke to men of mold ? Shakespeare>"

That meaning seems more suited to a village name than fungus does, to me at least.

Carol, realizing that she should have checked a British dictionary and hoping that someone will





From joeydebs at yahoo.com  Fri Jul  3 18:25:06 2009
From: joeydebs at yahoo.com (Debi)
Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2009 18:25:06 -0000
Subject: Mould-on-the-Wold
In-Reply-To: <h2la8d+10ilm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h2lie2+hmi3@eGroups.com>

Carol:
<snip>
> Carol, realizing that she should have checked a British dictionary and hoping that someone will

According to the Collins English Dictionary which I just grabbed off my shelf (and I am British):

Mould (U.S. mold)

1. a shaped cavity used to give a definite form to fluid or plastic material (and about eight other similar definitions!)
2. a coating of discoloration caused by various saprophytic fungi that develop in a damp atmosphere on the suface of stored food, fabrics, wallpaper, etc. (and a couple of similar definitions)
3. loose soil esp. when rich in organic matter (and in poetic usage, the earth)

I agree with you that it is probably the third meaning, but I find it amusing to think it might be the second. XD
~Debi




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Fri Jul  3 19:46:40 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2009 19:46:40 -0000
Subject: Mould-on-the-Wold
In-Reply-To: <h2hai7+ljes@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h2ln70+dll9@eGroups.com>

 "zanooda2:
>
> Can anyone tell me what "Mould-on-the-Wold" means (mostly "Mould" :-))? It's the village where Dumbledore's family used to live before they moved to Godric's Hollow. Dictionaries suggest "mould"  means either "loose earth", or "fungus". Which meaning is used here? Thanks.


Potioncat:
You've gotten lots of interesting replies. I think JKR created a nice little pun. Perhaps DD should have been a herbology or potions master---don't they both use fungi in their line of work?

Were you just curious (and I'm glad you were) or were you working on a translation? I wouldn't recommend translating the name of the town. But an explanation of the name would be an interesting bit for an essay.

jmo, Potioncat




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Fri Jul  3 21:09:56 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2009 21:09:56 -0000
Subject: Mould-on-the-Wold
In-Reply-To: <h2lie2+hmi3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h2ls34+avl9@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Debi" <joeydebs at ...> wrote:
>
> Carol:
> <snip>

Carol, realizing that she should have checked a British dictionary and hoping that someone will
> 
> According to the Collins English Dictionary which I just grabbed off my shelf (and I am British):
> 
> Mould (U.S. mold)
> 
> 1. a shaped cavity used to give a definite form to fluid or plastic material (and about eight other similar definitions!)
> 2. a coating of discoloration caused by various saprophytic fungi that develop in a damp atmosphere on the suface of stored food, fabrics, wallpaper, etc. (and a couple of similar definitions)
> 3. loose soil esp. when rich in organic matter (and in poetic usage, the earth)
> 
> I agree with you that it is probably the third meaning, but I find it amusing to think it might be the second. XD
~Debi

Geoff:
Personally, I think that Mould-on-the-Wold is a wizarding village in the Cotswolds famous for its jelly-making.
:-)




From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Sat Jul  4 00:42:49 2009
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Sat, 04 Jul 2009 00:42:49 -0000
Subject: Mould-on-the-Wold
In-Reply-To: <h2ln70+dll9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h2m8i9+tbqk@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at ...> wrote:

> I wouldn't recommend translating the name of the town.


zanooda:

I don't think they have a choice, because, if left without a translation, this name sounds really awkward and weird :-). All those transcriptions and transliterations don't work here, because we don't have the sound "th" :-). The letter "w" in the beginning of a word doesn't help either :-). Besides, this name is mentioned only once, and it doesn't really matter how they will translate it. I was just wondering which meaning was better, because it's different in every translation that I read :-).






From willsonkmom at msn.com  Sat Jul  4 01:26:22 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Sat, 04 Jul 2009 01:26:22 -0000
Subject: Mould-on-the-Wold
In-Reply-To: <h2m8i9+tbqk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h2mb3u+gh3f@eGroups.com>

 
> zanooda:
> 
> I don't think they have a choice, because, if left without a translation, this name sounds really awkward and weird :-). All those transcriptions and transliterations don't work here, because we don't have the sound "th" :-). The letter "w" in the beginning of a word doesn't help either :-). Besides, this name is mentioned only once, and it doesn't really matter how they will translate it. I was just wondering which meaning was better, because it's different in every translation that I read :-).


Potioncat:
So, what are some of the translations?

I thought of you the other day, during training at work. The company is emphsizing cultural awareness...we are health care providers--mostly nurses. I was reading an article about the difficulties of translating medical/health information--and in particular how tricky some of our English phrases and idioms are.





From willsonkmom at msn.com  Sat Jul  4 01:30:02 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Sat, 04 Jul 2009 01:30:02 -0000
Subject: Mould-on-the-Wold
In-Reply-To: <h2ls34+avl9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h2mbaq+6fgu@eGroups.com>

 
> Geoff:
> Personally, I think that Mould-on-the-Wold is a wizarding village in the Cotswolds famous for its jelly-making.
> :-)
>


Potioncat:
I suppose you mean the gellatin like treats that are set in a mold and have a decorative appearance?

My aunt has made a a dish for decades that she calls "congealed salad"---that name has always sounded disgusting, but it's really good. She always treated it as a salad, but it should be a dessert.





From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Sat Jul  4 03:59:20 2009
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Sat, 04 Jul 2009 03:59:20 -0000
Subject: Mould-on-the-Wold
In-Reply-To: <h2mb3u+gh3f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h2mk2o+afhu@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at ...> wrote:

> So, what are some of the translations?


zanooda:

Usually it's just different variations of "plowed wasteland" or "moldy moor/wasteland" :-). Once I met also something like "mounded highland" - I'm not sure I translated it back correctly, but it means that the earth was mounded and this way highland was created. Something of the sort :-).


> potioncat:

> I was reading an article about the difficulties of translating 
> medical/health information--and in particular how tricky some 
> of our English phrases and idioms are.


zanooda:

Yes, very tricky, especially for those who are not living among native speakers :-). You can never learn all this just from textbooks :-).








From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Sat Jul  4 17:54:22 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Sat, 04 Jul 2009 17:54:22 -0000
Subject: Mould-on-the-Wold
In-Reply-To: <h2mbaq+6fgu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h2o50e+rrmr@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at ...> wrote:

 Geoff:
> > Personally, I think that Mould-on-the-Wold is a wizarding village in the Cotswolds famous for its jelly-making.
> > :-)
 
Potioncat:
> I suppose you mean the gellatin like treats that are set in a mold and have a decorative appearance?
> 
> My aunt has made a a dish for decades that she calls "congealed salad"---that name has always sounded disgusting, but it's really good. She always treated it as a salad, but it should be a dessert.

Geoff:
In the UK, gelatine is only used to describe the basic substance used 
for preservation etc.

Jelly was traditionally made in a moulded glass container. The phrase is 
sometimes used to describe things such as cars which have exaggerated 
curves. The early Ford Sierras were sometimes described this way in the 
early 1980s.

Jelly was a constituent of puddings for years - jelly and custard, jelly and 
cream, fruit and jelly. The moulds have fallen out of fashion. Families will 
often buy pre-preapred jellies for convenience. We still buy jelly to make 
up if we're having something like a trifle for afters for Sunday lunch.










From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Sat Jul  4 18:08:45 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Sat, 04 Jul 2009 18:08:45 -0000
Subject: Mould-on-the-Wold
In-Reply-To: <h2mk2o+afhu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h2o5rd+qkqi@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "zanooda2" <zanooda2 at ...> wrote:
>
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom@> wrote:
> 
> > So, what are some of the translations?

zanooda:
> Usually it's just different variations of "plowed wasteland" or "moldy moor/wasteland" :-). Once I met also something like "mounded highland" - I'm not sure I translated it back correctly, but it means that the earth was mounded and this way highland was created. Something of the sort :-).
 
potioncat:
> > I was reading an article about the difficulties of translating 
> > medical/health information--and in particular how tricky some 
> > of our English phrases and idioms are.
 
zanooda:
> Yes, very tricky, especially for those who are not living among native speakers :-). You can never learn all this just from textbooks :-).

Geoff:
I feel that "ploughed wasteland" and "mouldy moor/wasteland" miss 
the point completely.

If I may refer you to post 39626, I wrote:
My dictionary defines "Wold" as:
noun (especially in British place names) a piece of high, open,
uncultivated land or moor.

This does not imply wasteland, or ploughed land.

My vision of "wold" is coloured by Tolkien's occasional reference
 to "the Wolds of Rohan".

If you are familiar with "The Two Towers", his descriptions of Rohan 
are of a green, grassy country of low rolling hills which are beautiful 
and open.

I believe he based Rohan on the Berkshire, Wiltshire and Oxfordshire 
Downs, places familiar to him. These are areas of long rolling 
downland 40-50 miles west of London. Another tip of his hat is that 
the Berkshire Downs are the home of many of the big racing stables 
in the UK.








From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Sat Jul  4 18:53:03 2009
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Sat, 04 Jul 2009 18:53:03 -0000
Subject: He's a poet and he knows it, his feet are Longfellows.
Message-ID: <h2o8ef+dra8@eGroups.com>

In a recent interview with Dan Radcliffe, it was indirectly reveal that he may have had some of his poetry published under the pen-name - Jacob Gershon.

Just out of curiousity, I searched Google for "Jacob Gershon Poet" to see what I could come up with.

Really didn't find anything, but I did stumble across some Malware that was associated with this search.

When I went to many of the sites that referenced 'Jacob Gershon', a message popped up saying I had to scan my computer immediately for viruses, and offered a Yes or No option. No matter which you select, it goes to a webpage that starts to scan your computer. 

You want to close the window immediately and click on the [X] in the top right corner of the window and close all subsequent windows that pop up. 

Fortunately, this website is not too relentless, and you can close it completely after closing a couple of pop-ups. 

Whether this virus scanning software is legitimate or not, I heartily disapprove of their deceitful marketing methods.

Forewarned is forearmed.

Steve/bluewizard




From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Sat Jul  4 19:41:22 2009
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Sat, 04 Jul 2009 19:41:22 -0000
Subject: He's a poet and he knows it, his feet are Longfellows.
In-Reply-To: <h2o8ef+dra8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h2ob92+ik8r@eGroups.com>

---  "Steve" <bboyminn at ...> wrote:
>
> In a recent interview with Dan Radcliffe, it was indirectly reveal that he may have had some of his poetry published under the pen-name - Jacob Gershon.
> 
> Just out of curiousity, I searched Google for "Jacob Gershon Poet" to see what I could come up with.
> 
> Really didn't find anything, but I did stumble across some Malware that was associated with this search.
> 
> ...
> 
> Forewarned is forearmed.
> 
> Steve/bluewizard
>


I just noticed that most of the malware links lead to DYNUP.NET .

Think inflamed posts are made here and there with enthusicastic references to 'Jacob Gershon', simply to tempt people to the site and make them a small commission.

For example, the first to links that came up were -

04june6.dynup.net

julia.dynup.net

I suspect '04june6' and 'julia' are usernames of people trying to make some money. 

Another troubling link, is a YouTube video titled "Jacob Gershon | Jacob Gershon Poetry | Laura O Toole", but it is a video saying that the video has been removed, and providing an alternate link to the actual video.

The trouble is, you can't view the video unless you are willing to take one of three surveys, and the survey start with you entering your email address. Forget that. 

That second link leads to 1gbit.org/jacobg/. While you can see what appears to be a faint video screen in the background, what are the odds that that webpage would be titled /jacobg/. Again, this is simply  not a site I trust, and I suggest you do the same.

This particular YouTube member has a member name that is just a scamble of letters, and he/she has three videos which again are videos telling you you have to go to this alternate site to view the real video. Very dodgey if you ask me. 

Still, all that said, it would be nice to see some of Dan's poetry. It must be reasonably good, if he's had it published.

Steve/bboyminn




From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Sat Jul  4 19:50:45 2009
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Sat, 04 Jul 2009 19:50:45 -0000
Subject: Mould-on-the-Wold
In-Reply-To: <h2o5rd+qkqi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h2obql+6beg@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" <gbannister10 at ...> wrote:

> My dictionary defines "Wold" as:
> noun (especially in British place names) a piece of high, open,
> uncultivated land or moor.


zanooda:

OK, let it be "grassland" then :-). Or "moor" :-). The word they used in Russian just means some empty uninhabited and uncultivated land, without any details. If it's not "wasteland", then I just mislead you, sorry :-). And "ploughed" refers to "mould", I think :-).










From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Sat Jul  4 20:11:55 2009
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Sat, 04 Jul 2009 20:11:55 -0000
Subject: Mould-on-the-Wold
In-Reply-To: <h2m8i9+tbqk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h2od2b+itbf@eGroups.com>

---  "zanooda2" <zanooda2 at ...> wrote:
>
> ---  "potioncat" <willsonkmom@> wrote:
> 
> > I wouldn't recommend translating the name of the town.
> 
> 
> zanooda:
> 
> I don't think they have a choice, because, if left without a translation, this name sounds really awkward and weird :-). All those transcriptions and transliterations don't work here, because we don't have the sound "th" :-). ...
>

This is one thing that has bothered me with the translations, and that is the need to change the names of people and places. For example, I believe in Italian, DUMBledore was translated to Professor Silencio. Apparently because 'dumb' as the only part of the name the could make sense if. 

But not matter where I go in the world, my name and the town I'm from stay the same. It isn't translated. My name is a noun, not in the standard sense, but my last name is a common object.

For example if my name was John Door and I was from Rolling Hills, Kentucky, you wouldn't introduce me as Juan Puerta from Rollo Colinas if I was in Mexico. Whether in Spain, France, or China, my name is still John Door from Rolling Hills. 

Now, the meaning of my name might change in various languages, but not the name itself. 

Yes, there may be some subtle underlying pun or alliteration to Mold-on-the-Wold, but the name is still the name.

To some extent, I can understand when a name is so hopelessly and completely out of the realm of a local language as to simple be gobbly-gook, totally nonsensical. But none the less, names are usually not translated unless there is a very very very good reason to do so. 

As another example, apparently 'Dumbledore' is related to bumble or honey bee. Just as my last name has a very common meaning that would work in any language. But in the case of Dumbledore, it is only of secondary interest that the name comes from a reference to a 'Bee'. 

I mean is name isn't 'honey bee', it is 'Dumbledore', and that's what we should call him.

My first name 'Steven' means Crown, or Garland. Still regardless of the meaning, my friends are more likely to call me Steve than 'Crown'. 

Steve/bboyminn




From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Sun Jul  5 05:37:26 2009
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Sun, 05 Jul 2009 05:37:26 -0000
Subject: Mould-on-the-Wold
In-Reply-To: <h2od2b+itbf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h2pe6m+tfms@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <bboyminn at ...> wrote:


> ...names are usually not translated unless there is a very very 
> very good reason to do so.


zanooda:

You are absolutely right, names should not be translated. I fight against translated names in HP books everywhere I can :-). The only time I ever supported a change of a name was in case of "Moody", and only because this name sounds rude in Russian (it shares the root with a very bad curse word :-)). 

Why translators insist on changing names of HP characters, I have no idea. I suppose they think in a book like this names have meaning that should be conveyed. Many characters suffered in the process. The most unlucky of all is Neville, whose surname was changed (to the bad :-)) in many translations, including Russian.

However, I don't mind the change of a geographic name, if it is not real, but invented by the author. You don't expect them to keep "Godric's Hollow" as it is, without translation, do you :-)? I suspect it was translated into every language possible. Don't worry, they don't change real names - London is still London, and Tinworth is still Tinworth, although it was horribly mutilated in Russian transliteration :-). However, in one translation I met "Wiltshire" changed to some invented word, which enraged me to the point of throwing the printout across the room, LOL.






From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Sun Jul  5 06:21:39 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Sun, 05 Jul 2009 06:21:39 -0000
Subject: Mould-on-the-Wold
In-Reply-To: <h2pe6m+tfms@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h2pgpj+1n0b@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "zanooda2" <zanooda2 at ...> wrote:
>
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <bboyminn@> wrote:

> > ...names are usually not translated unless there is a very very 
> > very good reason to do so.

zanooda:
> However, I don't mind the change of a geographic name, if it is not real, but invented by the author. You don't expect them to keep "Godric's Hollow" as it is, without translation, do you :-)? I suspect it was translated into every language possible. Don't worry, they don't change real names - London is still London, and Tinworth is still Tinworth, although it was horribly mutilated in Russian transliteration :-). 

Geoff:
Just in passing, I don't think that Tinworth is a real place.

There is a point though, that London **does** get translated - "Londres" in 
French, "Llundain" in Welsh for example. And certainly many overseas towns 
have English variants of their names; German towns especially come to mind- N?rnberg/Nuremberg, Braunschweig/Brunswick and M?nchen/Munich as 
examples. 

And living in an area where just twelve miles or so in a straight line across 
the Bristol Channel, where nearly every road sign has bi-lingual town names,  
this does not trouble me; there is a case for the  translation or geographical 
names - provided that it is done in a sensible fashion.








From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Sun Jul  5 08:13:52 2009
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Sun, 05 Jul 2009 08:13:52 -0000
Subject: Mould-on-the-Wold
In-Reply-To: <h2o50e+rrmr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h2pnc0+9fk8@eGroups.com>

---  "Geoff Bannister" <gbannister10 at ...> wrote:
>
> ---  "potioncat" <willsonkmom@> wrote:
> 
>  Geoff:
> > > Personally, I think that Mould-on-the-Wold is a wizarding village in the Cotswolds famous for its jelly-making.
> > > :-)
>  
> Potioncat:
> > I suppose you mean the gelatin like treats that are set in a mold and have a decorative appearance?
> > 
> > ...
> 
> Geoff:
> In the UK, gelatine is only used to describe the basic substance
> used for preservation etc.
> 
> Jelly was traditionally made in a moulded glass container. The
> phrase is  sometimes used to describe things such as cars which
> have exaggerated curves. ...
> 
> Jelly was a constituent of puddings for years - ...

bboyminn: 

In the USA, what you call 'jelly', our version has fallen on the curse of all marketing. Every brand wants to be a household word, but when the word becomes too common, it become generic and loses its meaning.

For example, a Xerox for all photocopies.

Kleenex as a universal word for all tissue or facial tissue.

And Jello as a universal word for all jelly, gelled, or gelatin-based deserts.

The other brand of 'jello' was Royal brand, we frequently had Royal Jello, which is akin to saying I'm going to buy a new car. I think I'll get a Chevy-Ford or a Dodge-Buick. 

And, though you probably know, Jelly in the USA, is a fruit based clear spread for bread or toast, that is made primarily of concentrated fruit juice and pectin. 

The classic PBJ, for peanut butter and jelly, doesn't mean peanut butter and Jello. It means peanut butter and gelled fruit spread. 

While jelly is clear and uniform in texture, jam or preserves have chunks of fruit in them. 

Also, in what way would you use the word 'jelly' to describe a car. Could you give us a sample sentence? 

Back on topic. The idea that it is OK to change the name of say, Godrics Hollow, I'm not sure I agree. To change the name changes several other things. For example, Godric Griffindor live in Godric Hollow. We were suppose to make that association, thin and subtle though it was. 

So, if you change the name of the town, do you correspondingly change the name of Godric Griffindor? And in doing so, do how many other related things change? It would seem a nightmare to keep track of it all. To make changes like that would imply that the translator was infinitely familiar with and understood the books in their original language, and it is clear that has not happened. 

As to the original name 'Mould-on-the-Wold', that doesn't even make a lot of sense in English. Beyond '-on-the-'usually meaning 'on the river'. Or perhaps Mould on the forest, or Mould by the forest. 

I think 'Ottery St. Catchpole' is nonsensical unless you understand (and hopefully I'm correct) that it means the village of St. Catchpole on the Otter River. 

Again, unless a name of a person or a town makes absolutely no sense in another language, or as in the case of 'Moody' has an alternate impolite meaning in the local native language, I see no reason to change these names. It immensely complicate the story and makes it that much harder to keep track of the subtle little clues that JRK dropped here and there.

All that said, I don't envy the life of a translator. It has to be a difficult, time consuming, tedious task, that satisfies no one. 

Just a few rambling thoughts.

Steve/bboyminn






From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Sun Jul  5 14:16:23 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Sun, 05 Jul 2009 14:16:23 -0000
Subject: Mould-on-the-Wold
In-Reply-To: <h2pnc0+9fk8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h2qcjn+9g8c@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <bboyminn at ...> wrote:

Geoff: 
> > Jelly was traditionally made in a moulded glass container. The
> > phrase is  sometimes used to describe things such as cars which
> > have exaggerated curves. ...

bboyminn: 
> And, though you probably know, Jelly in the USA, is a fruit based clear spread for bread or toast, that is made primarily of concentrated fruit juice and pectin. 

Geoff:
I presume this is something like marmlade, which is an orange preserve 
almost universally used for toast at breakfast-time.

bboymin:
> Also, in what way would you use the word 'jelly' to describe a car. Could you give us a sample sentence? 

Geoff:
Sorry, I didn't make myself totally clear. Sierras and similar shaped cars 
were sometimes referred to as "jelly mould" cars - usually a disparaging 
description because of their shape.

bboymin:
> As to the original name 'Mould-on-the-Wold', that doesn't even make a lot of sense in English. Beyond '-on-the-'usually meaning 'on the river'. Or perhaps Mould on the forest, or Mould by the forest. 

Geoff:
Stow-on-the-Wold actually means Stow-on-the-hill, that being the 
local meaning of "wold".

bboymin: 
> I think 'Ottery St. Catchpole' is nonsensical unless you understand (and hopefully I'm correct) that it means the village of St. Catchpole on the Otter River. 

Geoff:
Yes, it's modelled on Ottery St. Mary, near Exeter, which is a village 
based round the church of St.Mary and is on the Otter river.

bboymin: 
> Again, unless a name of a person or a town makes absolutely no sense in another language, or as in the case of 'Moody' has an alternate impolite meaning in the local native language, I see no reason to change these names. It immensely complicate the story and makes it that much harder to keep track of the subtle little clues that JRK dropped here and there.

Geoff:
I think we need to bear in mind that JKR didn't envisage the impact 
of her books at this point and was writing for an anticipated British 
readership. All the little "in" jokes and wordplays such as Diagon Alley, 
Apparition, Durmstrang and such like would be understood by her target 
readers without the need for extensive and joke-killing explanations.




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Sun Jul  5 16:40:59 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Sun, 05 Jul 2009 16:40:59 -0000
Subject: Jelly was (Re: Mould-on-the-Wold
In-Reply-To: <h2qcjn+9g8c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h2ql2r+a8m6@eGroups.com>

 
> Geoff:
> I presume this is something like marmlade, which is an orange preserve 
> almost universally used for toast at breakfast-time.

Potioncat:
Yes, we have jelly, jam and preserves--all fruit based sugary spreads for toast. And all of them are different from Jell-O or gelatin. Grape and strawberry are two of the most popular---at least in my house, but I've also had pepper jelly or mint jelly. 

The dessert which used to be molded is called either Jell-O or gelatin mold. Like in England, I think it's out of fashion now. But there are some desserts which use gelatin in a bigger rectangular dish.



>




From md at exit-reality.com  Sun Jul  5 16:55:35 2009
From: md at exit-reality.com (Child of Midian)
Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 12:55:35 -0400
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Mould-on-the-Wold
In-Reply-To: <h2pnc0+9fk8@eGroups.com>
References: <h2o50e+rrmr@eGroups.com> <h2pnc0+9fk8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <006601c9fd91$6aa010d0$3fe03270$@com>



-----Original Message-----
From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
[mailto:HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Steve
Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2009 4:14 AM
To: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Mould-on-the-Wold

And Jello as a universal word for all jelly, gelled, or gelatin-based
deserts.

Steve/bboyminn

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Jelly, Jam and Preserves are made using Pectin.

Jell-O or Gelatin is made from ground bones.

Jelly and Jell-O  are made in completely different ways with a completely
different thickener and are not remotely interchangeable.

I've never heard, make me a Peanut butter and grape Jell-O sandwich. 

md 




From md at exit-reality.com  Sun Jul  5 17:06:40 2009
From: md at exit-reality.com (Child of Midian)
Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 13:06:40 -0400
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Mould-on-the-Wold
In-Reply-To: <h2qcjn+9g8c@eGroups.com>
References: <h2pnc0+9fk8@eGroups.com> <h2qcjn+9g8c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <006701c9fd92$f7322140$e59663c0$@com>



-----Original Message-----


Geoff:
I think we need to bear in mind that JKR didn't envisage the impact 
of her books at this point and was writing for an anticipated British 
readership. All the little "in" jokes and wordplays such as Diagon Alley, 
Apparition, Durmstrang and such like would be understood by her target 
readers without the need for extensive and joke-killing explanations.
 


------------------------------------
I'm strictly against changing British lit for Americans and Vice Versa (it
would be like translating Tolstoy so that everyone had one name!) I only
read the British editions in my home in South East Pennsylvania (though my
daughter has a paper-back set of the "Americanized" books because, quite
frankly, it was really cheap!) I've read all the British editions aloud to
my daughters and with a few explanations and some shoulder shrugging ("I
don't know, it's a British phrase") they had no issue understanding, 

They covered "Diagon Alley" in the second film "what did he say?"
"diagonally" "that's what I thought."

md




From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Sun Jul  5 17:20:11 2009
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Sun, 05 Jul 2009 17:20:11 -0000
Subject: Mould-on-the-Wold
In-Reply-To: <h2pgpj+1n0b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h2qncb+16hb@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" <gbannister10 at ...> wrote:


> Just in passing, I don't think that Tinworth is a real place.


zanooda:

That's good to know :-). What else is real in the books, then? Just names like Surrey? No real towns ;-(?


> Geoff:
 
> There is a point though, that London **does** get translated - 
> "Londres" in French, "Llundain" in Welsh for example. 


zanooda:

But this is not what I call translation (conveying the meaning of he word). Many geographic names are written differently and sound differently in different languages, but it doesn't mean they are translated. We call the city Moskva, you call it Moscow, but you don't get more meaning from "Moscow" than you would from "Moskva", right :-)?

The same with names - some name are written and pronounced differently from English. For example, names of Greek origin are pronounced in Russian much closer to the Greek pronunciation. As a result, we say "Hermione" very differently from you, it's pronounced "guerr-mee-Ona". This doesn't mean the name is translated or changed, it's the same name. That's how I understand it :-). 




From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Sun Jul  5 17:28:02 2009
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Sun, 05 Jul 2009 17:28:02 -0000
Subject: Mould-on-the-Wold
In-Reply-To: <h2qcjn+9g8c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h2qnr2+rmg6@eGroups.com>

--- , "Geoff Bannister" <gbannister10 at ...> wrote:
>
> ---  "Steve" <bboyminn@> wrote:
> 
> Geoff: 
> > > Jelly was traditionally made in a moulded glass container. The
> > > phrase is  sometimes used to describe things such as cars which
> > > have exaggerated curves. ...
> 
> bboyminn: 
> > And, though you probably know, Jelly in the USA, is a fruit based clear spread for bread or toast, that is made primarily of concentrated fruit juice and pectin. 
> 
> Geoff:
> I presume this is something like marmlade, which is an orange
> preserve  almost universally used for toast at breakfast-time.
> 

BBOYMINN:

Assuming your Orange Marmalade is like ours, if you took all the bits of orange out of the marmalade, the orange flavored 'gell' that was left would be Jelly. 

If it actually has any visible bits of fruit in it, it becomes Jam or Preserves.


> bboymin:
> > Also, in what way would you use the word 'jelly' to describe a car. Could you give us a sample sentence? 
> 
> Geoff:
> Sorry, I didn't make myself totally clear. Sierras and similar
> shaped cars  were sometimes referred to as "jelly mould" cars -
> usually a disparaging description because of their shape.
> 

BBOYMINN:

Ah...got it. 

...edited...

> 
> bboymin: 
> > I think 'Ottery St. Catchpole' ... the village of St. 
> Catchpole on the Otter River. 
> 
> Geoff:
> Yes, it's modelled on Ottery St. Mary, near Exeter, which is
> a village based round the church of St.Mary and is on the 
> Otter river.
> 

BBOYMINN:

I've often wondered if there wasn't some hidden meaning to 'Catchpole that we were supposed to get if we dug deep enough.

To the best of my knowledge 'catchpole' is that long stick with a loop on the end that animal control people use to snare and safely control animals.

The alternate meaning is 'tax collector'. 

> bboymin: 
> > Again, unless a name of a person or a town makes absolutely no sense in another language, or as in the case of 'Moody' has an alternate impolite meaning in the local native language, I see no reason to change these names....
> 
> Geoff:
> I think we need to bear in mind that JKR didn't envisage the 
> impact of her books at this point and was writing for an 
> anticipated British readership. All the little "in" jokes and
> wordplays such as Diagon Alley, Apparition, Durmstrang and such
> like would be understood by her target readers without the need
> for extensive and joke-killing explanations.
>

BBOYMINN:

First, I think a lot of these are VERY MUCH 'IN' jokes or inside
jokes. I think she intended them to be overlooked by most readers
and just taken for granted. Only the most astute and inquisitive
reader were suppose to see the Sirius was the Dog star and 
Sirius Black was a 'dog'. 

I don't think it is so much that she never anticipated that her
books would be translated into 100 languages including dead 
languages like Latin, as it is that she never anticipated that
she would have such thoroughly obsessed readers that they 
would relish digging into every nuance, detail, and turn of a
phrase. 

I think she appreciates that her fans are obsessed detail
oriented people, otherwise a lot of the fine subtlity of her
books would have been lost. In a sense, they would have
remained just a personal joke for her own amusement. But now,
she is happy that people 'got it'. 

As I implied before, with all this subtle underlying indirect
humor and word play, for any translator, these books must be
a nightmare to translate. 

But at the same time, I think a lot of the translators, based 
on my limited knowledge, could have done a better job of it,
it they had translated less. 

Steve/bboyminn




From HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com  Sun Jul  5 17:41:59 2009
From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com (HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 5 Jul 2009 17:41:59 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 7/5/2009, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1246815719.13.15699.m5@yahoogroups.com>

Reminder from: HPFGU-OTChatter Yahoo! Group
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From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Sun Jul  5 17:52:47 2009
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Sun, 05 Jul 2009 17:52:47 -0000
Subject: Mould-on-the-Wold
In-Reply-To: <h2pnc0+9fk8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h2qp9f+gjin@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <bboyminn at ...> wrote:


> So, if you change the name of the town, do you 
> correspondingly change the name of Godric Griffindor?


zanooda:

They don't change "Godric", Steve, they just translate "hollow" :-). Even Spanish translation, where they, unlike many others, mercifully left practically every name unchanged (except for Riddle, iirc), gives "valle de Godric". I'm certain everybody else did the same :-). 



Steve wrote:

> I think 'Ottery St. Catchpole' is nonsensical unless you 
> understand (and hopefully I'm correct) that it means the
> village of St. Catchpole on the Otter River.


zanooda:

I believe they all left this name as it is, because no one understands what it means, and because it sounds OK, no "TH"s or "W"s or other bad stuff :-).


> Steve wrote:
 
> All that said, I don't envy the life of a translator. 
> It has to be a difficult, time consuming, tedious task, 
> that satisfies no one. 


zanooda:

Not to mention that you have to know both languages really well :-). I'm happy to hear that you understand how difficult translation is. My husband works as a technical translator/editor, and he says that many of his American co-workers still think that a translator's job is just to replace every English word with a corresponding Russian word (and vice versa), and this is it, LOL. They seriously think that translation is done word-per-word. No wonder they believe that computers can do it :-).




From joeydebs at yahoo.com  Sun Jul  5 18:23:21 2009
From: joeydebs at yahoo.com (Debi)
Date: Sun, 05 Jul 2009 18:23:21 -0000
Subject: Mould-on-the-Wold
In-Reply-To: <h2pe6m+tfms@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h2qr2p+m91j@eGroups.com>

Zanooda:
<snip>
> 
However, in one translation I met "Wiltshire" changed to some invented word, which enraged me to the point of throwing the printout across the room, LOL.
>

Somehow it wouldn't surprise me if the translators thought "Wiltshire" was invented given the comparative small size of the country (though I'd assume they'd check!). :P Can you remember what they translated it to?

In the idea of vastly different translated names I have encountered some in real life where names are completely unrecognisable. A good example is "Caersallog" which is the Welsh name for my home city, Salisbury. The Wiki page said something about "exonyms" (though given that even in translation they ought to be trying to retain the British flavour...?) - a name for a place that is not used within that place by the locals or in the offical langauge of state or local languages. I doubt this really applies here thought.

~Debi (from Wiltshire!)




From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Sun Jul  5 19:37:39 2009
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Sun, 05 Jul 2009 19:37:39 -0000
Subject: Mould-on-the-Wold
In-Reply-To: <h2qr2p+m91j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h2qve3+lhan@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Debi" <joeydebs at ...> wrote:

> Somehow it wouldn't surprise me if the translators thought 
> "Wiltshire" was invented given the comparative small size
> of the country (though I'd assume they'd check!).


zanooda:

I think it's exactly what happened :-). Everybody knows names like Yorkshire or Hampshire, but Wiltshire... Even my spell check underlines it, LOL! I personally never heard of it before, but I looked it up when I saw this strange translation. That's what the translator should have done :-).


> Debi wrote:

> Can you remember what they translated it to?


zanooda:

IIRC, she (it was a woman:-)) translated "wilt-" into Russian and used the root of the Russian word, and she had "-shire" attached to it :-).







From lizzy1933 at yahoo.com  Sun Jul  5 19:55:06 2009
From: lizzy1933 at yahoo.com (lizzie_snape)
Date: Sun, 05 Jul 2009 19:55:06 -0000
Subject: Mould-on-the-Wold
In-Reply-To: <h2qcjn+9g8c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h2r0eq+qndb@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" <gbannister10 at ...> wrote:
>
> I presume this is something like marmlade, which is an orange preserve 
> almost universally used for toast at breakfast-time.
> 

Well, sort of . . . imagine marmalade without the orange peel.  Ugh!!
To me PBJ is peanut butter and grape jelly -- grape preserves without grapes, just grape flavor. There is even a pb brand (Jif? don't know) that is swirls of pb and grape jelly.

I would never call a non-Jello brand dessert jelly.  It's a flavored gelatin dessert.  Well come to think of it, they're all Jello! lol


Lizzie




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Sun Jul  5 20:05:26 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Sun, 05 Jul 2009 20:05:26 -0000
Subject: Mould-on-the-Wold
In-Reply-To: <h2qncb+16hb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h2r126+ack8@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "zanooda2" <zanooda2 at ...> wrote:
 
zanooda:
> That's good to know :-). What else is real in the books, then? Just names like Surrey? No real towns ;-(?

Geoff:
Quite a few places.

This isn't meant to be an exhaustive list but in London for example: Paddington railway station, Kings Cross railway station, the Post Office Tower (now the Telecom Tower), Charing Cross Road  and Tottenham Court Road.

Elsewhere: Surrey, Norfolk, Cornwall (counties) Peebles, Abergavenny,  Aberdeen,  Bristol (towns and cities)...

That's basically off the top of my head.




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Sun Jul  5 20:40:46 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Sun, 05 Jul 2009 20:40:46 -0000
Subject: Mould-on-the-Wold
In-Reply-To: <h2qr2p+m91j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h2r34e+rahf@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Debi" <joeydebs at ...> wrote:
>
> Zanooda:
> <snip>

> However, in one translation I met "Wiltshire" changed to some invented word, which enraged me to the point of throwing the printout across the room, LOL.

~Debi (from Wiltshire!)
> Somehow it wouldn't surprise me if the translators thought "Wiltshire" was invented given the comparative small size of the country (though I'd assume they'd check!). :P Can you remember what they translated it to?

Geoff:
I think you're doing yourself down. I must leap to the support of Wiltshire 
forthwith.

As a disclaimer, I have no connections with Wiltshire other than relatives 
by marriage who live in Salisbury.

In an ordered list of counties and other unitary authorities, Wiltshire was 
ranked 36/90 on population (2001 census 452,550) and 13/90 on actual 
land area (3255 km2).

We mustn't forget the City of Salisbury with a population of about 115000 
with its beautiful Cathedral and Swindon, a major commercial and industrial 
hub.

I wouldn't rate that as comparatively small!




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sun Jul  5 21:46:51 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Sun, 05 Jul 2009 21:46:51 -0000
Subject: Mould-on-the-Wold
In-Reply-To: <h2qnr2+rmg6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h2r70b+k3oj@eGroups.com>

BBOYMINN:
> 
> First, I think a lot of these are VERY MUCH 'IN' jokes or inside
> jokes. I think she intended them to be overlooked by most readers
> and just taken for granted. Only the most astute and inquisitive
> reader were suppose to see the Sirius was the Dog star and 
> Sirius Black was a 'dog'. <snip>
>
> But at the same time, I think a lot of the translators, based 
> on my limited knowledge, could have done a better job of it,
> it they had translated less. 

Carol responds:

A name like Sirius Black would probably be best appreciated if the translator used the name for the Dog Star and the translated name "Black" (e.g., Schwarz in German, if I'm spelling that correctly). "Black," especially with Bellatrix, has connotations of Dark magic. OTOH, you lose the alliteration if you translate Black with Bellatrix, so it's a bit of a trade-off. Remus Lupin should certainly use the Latin name Remus to suggest the legend of Romulus and Remus and a last name suggesting "wolfish," the meaning of the adjective Llupine." (I don't think that a translation of "lupin/lupine," the flower name, would necessarily have the right connotations.

Names like Lucius Malfoy, Severus Snape, and Albus Percival Wulfric Brian Dumbledore (which, IMO, is simply brilliant), should be left alone (unless the language is, say, Chinese, and they simply can't be translated into that language). "Severus Rogue" in the French edition is simply annoying.

However, the names of the textbook authors, such as Arsenius Jigger, are clearly intended as linguistic jokes and should, IMO, be translated.

Place names like "Mould on the Wold" (which have no clear meaning even to a British reader and are apparently intended to mimic real English placenames like Stow-on-the-Wold) should perhaps be translated for sound effects rather than meaning, with "on the" translated literally and the first and last words rhyming.

The Wold is, of course, a real river, which has apparently lost the original meaning of "wold"--or maybe it flows through green, rolling country? Geoff can tell us. You might retain "wold" and use a Russian word that rhymes with it, if such a word exists.

Carol, who was going to mention that jelly in the American sense doesn't contain any bits of fruit, peel, or seeds but thinks that Steve has covered that ground already




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sun Jul  5 21:57:47 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Sun, 05 Jul 2009 21:57:47 -0000
Subject: Spoke too soon! (was Mould-on-the-Wold)
In-Reply-To: <h2r70b+k3oj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h2r7kr+mj3o@eGroups.com>

Carol wrote
> The Wold is, of course, a real river, which has apparently lost the original meaning of "wold"--or maybe it flows through green, rolling country? Geoff can tell us. You might retain "wold" and use a Russian word that rhymes with it, if such a word exists.

Carol again:
Blush! "The Wold" is a real place but not a river! I guess it means "Stow-on-the-Hill" since it's in the Cotswolds. Should have looked more carefully before I posted.

http://www.cotswolder.com/towns/stow-on-the-wold.php

Carol, now thinking that a Russian word rhyming with the Russian word for "hill" would work--again assuming that such a word exists




From catlady at wicca.net  Mon Jul  6 01:05:27 2009
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2009 01:05:27 -0000
Subject: Wold
Message-ID: <h2rikn+kt90@eGroups.com>

Debi wrote in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/39625>:

<< Incidentally the term "wold" means hills (Wikipedia) though according to Wikitionary is does come from the Old English word for "forest". Don't ask me why it's now come to stand for places WITHOUT a forest...God Bless English, she seems designed specifically to confuse. >>

<http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=wold> says:

<< wold 
    O.E. wald (Anglian), weald (W.Saxon) "forest, wooded upland," from P.Gmc. *walthuz (cf. O.S., O.Fris. wald, M.Du. wold, Du. woud, O.H.G. wald, Ger. Wald "forest," Swed. vall "pasture," O.N. v?llr "soil, field, meadow"); perhaps connected to wild. 

The sense development from "forested upland" to "rolling open country" (c.1205) perhaps is from Scand. infl., or a testimony to the historical deforestation of Britain. >>

That is, the word changed from meaning a wooded place to meaning an unwooded place when the trees were chopped down.

Carol wrote in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/39663>:

<< "The Wold" is a real place but not a river! I guess it means
"Stow-on-the-Hill" since it's in the Cotswolds. Should have looked more carefully before I posted. >>

Goddlefrood said the Wold is a river in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/39622>.




From gav_fiji at yahoo.com  Mon Jul  6 03:19:04 2009
From: gav_fiji at yahoo.com (Goddlefrood)
Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2009 03:19:04 -0000
Subject: Wold
In-Reply-To: <h2rikn+kt90@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h2rqf8+ckge@eGroups.com>

> Catlady:
> Goddlefrood said the Wold is a river in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/39622>.

Goddlefrood:

You mean it's not? Perhaps I dreamt it.




From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Mon Jul  6 03:32:08 2009
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2009 03:32:08 -0000
Subject: Mould-on-the-Wold
In-Reply-To: <h2r70b+k3oj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h2rr7o+jhhl@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:

> However, the names of the textbook authors, such as 
> Arsenius Jigger, are clearly intended as linguistic 
> jokes and should, IMO, be translated.


zanooda:

This is very difficult to do, because the new name should convey the meaning, but also still sound English, or at least foreign, not Russian...


> Carol:
 
> Place names like "Mould on the Wold" should perhaps be 
> translated for sound effects rather than meaning, with 
> "on the" translated literally and the first and last 
> words rhyming.


zanooda:

This is also tricky, because, don't forget, we have cases in Russian, so even the rhyming words will have different endings in a name like this one, because of the "on the" :-). In short, I'm glad that this is not some important name and that it doesn't matter much how it comes out in translation... :-).





From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Mon Jul  6 06:38:43 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2009 06:38:43 -0000
Subject: Wold
In-Reply-To: <h2rikn+kt90@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h2s65j+ugqg@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" <catlady at ...> wrote:

> << wold 
>     O.E. wald (Anglian), weald (W.Saxon) "forest, wooded upland," from P.Gmc. *walthuz (cf. O.S., O.Fris. wald, M.Du. wold, Du. woud, O.H.G. wald, Ger. Wald "forest," Swed. vall "pasture," O.N. v?llr "soil, field, meadow"); perhaps connected to wild. 
> 
> The sense development from "forested upland" to "rolling open country" (c.1205) perhaps is from Scand. infl., or a testimony to the historical deforestation of Britain. >>

Geoff:
I'd forgotten the link to "weald".

We still have "The Weald of Kent" and "The Weald of Sussex" as 
area names. That of course is the area of the South Saxons.




From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Mon Jul  6 06:50:20 2009
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2009 06:50:20 -0000
Subject: Mould-on-the-Wold
In-Reply-To: <h2qve3+lhan@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h2s6rc+elgq@eGroups.com>

--- "zanooda2" <zanooda2 at ...> wrote:
>
> ---  "Debi" <joeydebs@> wrote:
> 
> > Somehow it wouldn't surprise me if the translators thought 
> > "Wiltshire" was invented given the comparative small size
> > of the country (though I'd assume they'd check!).
> 
> 
> zanooda:
> 
> I think it's exactly what happened :-). Everybody knows names like Yorkshire or Hampshire, but Wiltshire... Even my spell check underlines it, LOL! I personally never heard of it before, but I looked it up when I saw this strange translation. That's what the translator should have done :-).
> 
> 
> > Debi wrote:
> 
> > Can you remember what they translated it to?
> 
> 
> zanooda:
> 
> IIRC, she (it was a woman:-)) translated "wilt-" into Russian and used the root of the Russian word, and she had "-shire" attached to it :-).
>

bboyminn: 

Unless I'm mistaken, Wiltshire is where Stonehenge, and several other 'henges', are. Yes, there is actually more than one 'henge'. Woodhenge comes to mind. Also the location of many giant Chalk drawings, such as the Cherhill White Horse. 

Just a bit of trivia.

Steve/bboyminn




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Mon Jul  6 10:18:33 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2009 10:18:33 -0000
Subject: Shires and Henges
In-Reply-To: <h2s6rc+elgq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h2sj1p+814j@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <bboyminn at ...> wrote:

zanooda: 
> > I think it's exactly what happened :-). Everybody knows names like Yorkshire or Hampshire, but Wiltshire... Even my spell check underlines it, LOL! I personally never heard of it before, but I looked it up when I saw this strange translation. That's what the translator should have done :-).

Geoff:
Spell checkers will underline a lot of place names! But the translator should 
certainly have looked...

There are umpteen counties ending in "-shire". In addition to the two 
you mentioned, there are: Bedfordshire, Lancashire, Buckinghamshire, 
Northamptonshire, Lincolnshire, Derbyshire, Nottinghamshire, Devonshire,
Gloucestershire, Leicestershire, Warwickshire, Cheshire, Staffordshire, 
Oxfordshire, Cambridgeshire, Herefordshire, Shropshire, Hertfordshire... 
and that's off the top of my head without even touching Wales or 
Scotland! 


bboyminn:  
> Unless I'm mistaken, Wiltshire is where Stonehenge, and several other 'henges', are. Yes, there is actually more than one 'henge'. Woodhenge comes to mind. 

Geoff:
Yes, Stonehenge is about 9 miles north of Salisbury and 5 miles west of the Hampshire/Wiltshire border near Amesbury. Woodhenge is about 2 miles 
north-east of Stonehenge. There is a henge at Avebury about 15 miles north of Stonehenge but this is usually known as Avebury Stone Circle.

There are some other notable henges at Thornborough  in North Yorkshire.













From joeydebs at yahoo.com  Mon Jul  6 21:46:44 2009
From: joeydebs at yahoo.com (Debi)
Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2009 21:46:44 -0000
Subject: Mould-on-the-Wold
In-Reply-To: <h2s6rc+elgq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h2trc4+j8rf@eGroups.com>

> > zanooda:
> > 
> > IIRC, she (it was a woman:-)) translated "wilt-" into Russian and used the root of the Russian word, and she had "-shire" attached to it :-).
> 
> bboyminn: 
> 
> Unless I'm mistaken, Wiltshire is where Stonehenge, and several other 'henges', are. Yes, there is actually more than one 'henge'. Woodhenge comes to mind. Also the location of many giant Chalk drawings, such as the Cherhill White Horse. 
> 

That's true, there's the Westbury White Horse too (according to HPL there are a further seven in the county!) and Avebury which is yet another henge in the area. I can speak for quite a lot of the south of the county but I don't know so much.

On the etymology the county derives its name from the town of Wilton and thusly from the River Wylye. Wilton was the capital of the region of the Anglo-Saxon kingdom of Wessex known as "Wiltunscire". It was very prosperous - until somebody built a new cathedral down the road and all the traders bypassed the town!

Incidentally, does the book every give clues about where the Malfoys' house may be in Wiltshire? I imagine it's quite remote but not necessarily - I see it as being slightly off the beaten path, maybe in the south of the county on or by Salisbury Plain. Presumably it'd have to legally have defences or some kind of ward to prevent muggle walkers stumbling on albino peacocks or the like?

~Debi who seems to have wandered so far off the path she might have ended up in Albania...




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Tue Jul  7 02:38:07 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2009 02:38:07 -0000
Subject: Mould-on-the-Wold
In-Reply-To: <h2r70b+k3oj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h2ucef+oren@eGroups.com>

 
> Carol responds:
> 
> Names like Lucius Malfoy, Severus Snape, and Albus Percival Wulfric Brian Dumbledore (which, IMO, is simply brilliant), should be left alone (unless the language is, say, Chinese, and they simply can't be translated into that language). "Severus Rogue" in the French edition is simply annoying.


Potioncat:
Severus Rogue and Professor Silencio. Annoying, yes. But you know, the more I think about it, the names fit. True, DD isn't silent, but he does keep quiet about an awful lot of things. Snape is something of a rogue--or at least appears to be for most of the series. 





From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Tue Jul  7 06:40:00 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2009 06:40:00 -0000
Subject: Mould-on-the-Wold
In-Reply-To: <h2ucef+oren@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h2uqk0+ehbb@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at ...> wrote:

Carol: 
> > Names like Lucius Malfoy, Severus Snape, and Albus Percival Wulfric Brian Dumbledore (which, IMO, is simply brilliant), should be left alone (unless the language is, say, Chinese, and they simply can't be translated into that language). "Severus Rogue" in the French edition is simply annoying.
 
Potioncat:
> Severus Rogue and Professor Silencio. Annoying, yes. But you know, the more I think about it, the names fit. True, DD isn't silent, but he does keep quiet about an awful lot of things. Snape is something of a rogue--or at least appears to be for most of the series.

Geoff:
I've never followed this one up before, since I've only occasionally seen 
references to translated names, but according to my Oxford Dictionary, 
"rogue" in French doesn't have the same meaning as in English. It gives 
it as: "haughty, arrogant, stiff" which, in fact, seems a good choice.





From donnawonna at att.net  Wed Jul  8 17:36:17 2009
From: donnawonna at att.net (Donna)
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 13:36:17 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
Subject: HP Games
Message-ID: <4A54D911.000025.03808@D8DXG9G1>

Donna:
I was just at Wal Mart and they have the HBP games in.  The store I was at had the game for PS2 and Wii.  I got the one for Wii and hope it's better than the ones in the past for PS2 and PC have been.  My complaint about the past games was spending as much time waiting for the game to load as spent playing.  For the record, this old broad isn't a "gamer".

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From md at exit-reality.com  Wed Jul  8 22:07:53 2009
From: md at exit-reality.com (Child of Midian)
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 18:07:53 -0400
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] HP Games
In-Reply-To: <4A54D911.000025.03808@D8DXG9G1>
References: <4A54D911.000025.03808@D8DXG9G1>
Message-ID: <001a01ca0018$8a8f1b50$9fad51f0$@com>



-----Original Message-----


Donna:
I was just at Wal Mart and they have the HBP games in.  
::::::::::::::::

I played COS on Game Boy when it came out, took me 2 hrs. Actually had a
cool Final Fantasy feel to it, but it was so short and simple. OOTP for GC
just got frustrating to play, the controls where too clunky for the level of
physical performance demanded. Personally I'd like to see the whole series
of books treated in a giant, multi-disk RPG like Final Fantasy XII with some
real depth and story telling.

md




From drdara at yahoo.com  Wed Jul  8 22:35:56 2009
From: drdara at yahoo.com (danielle dassero)
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 15:35:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] HP Games
In-Reply-To: <001a01ca0018$8a8f1b50$9fad51f0$@com>
References: <4A54D911.000025.03808@D8DXG9G1> <001a01ca0018$8a8f1b50$9fad51f0$@com>
Message-ID: <652238.56505.qm@web65412.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>





I have all 5 games for PSP2. I am kinda disappointed with OOTP game. I am betting that the Wii game is better handled. When I play doing spells is difficult for me (I am not a gamer either). To me it seems like they created the game for the Wii (which the way spells are done would be fine for the Wii)?and they chose not to do it differently for? the other consoles. I enjoyed the 1st 3 games (wasn't a fan of 4, didn't like the format).

Danielle




      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Jul  8 23:20:50 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2009 23:20:50 -0000
Subject: Absolute worst sentence I've ever seen in an article
Message-ID: <h339ki+c05k@eGroups.com>

Here's a gem (verbatim) from an interview of Helena Bonham Carter, aka Bellatrix Lestrange:

"The couple met while they were making Planet to better, playing Bellatrix's in could just doesn't witch high of the Apes in 2001."

Obviously, "of the Apes in 2001" needs to be moved up to follow "Planet," but I have no idea what's going on with the rest of the sentence.

Back in the old days, when we used rolls of hot wax and X-acto knives to (literally) cut and past newspaper articles, a line or two occasionally ended up out of sequence, but how could that happen with a word-processing program?

Just for fun, here's how we cut and pasted in those days (1970s), with a tinyurl just in case:

http://www.creativepro.com/article/heavy-metal-madness-waxing-nostalgic-over-paste-up

http://tinyurl.com/ldxwp6

Anyway, the Bonham Carter article is rather interesting if anyone cares about Bonham Carter's relationship with Tim Burton, and she does get around to talking about playing Bellatrix eventually. here's the URL if you want to read it:

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/entertainment/showbiz-news/celebrity-interviews/2009/07/06/harry-potter-star-helena-bonham-carter-insists-she-and-gothic-director-tim-burton-are-just-another-couple-86908-21498113/

Needless to say, this one needs a tinyurl:

http://tinyurl.com/kwdfd4

Carol, tempted to take a few minutes to figure out what the sentence was supposed to say but deciding it's not worth the effort




From tfaucette6387 at charter.net  Thu Jul  9 00:53:21 2009
From: tfaucette6387 at charter.net (anne_t_squires)
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 2009 00:53:21 -0000
Subject: Absolute worst sentence I've ever seen in an article
In-Reply-To: <h339ki+c05k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h33f21+4iqi@eGroups.com>

 "Carol" wrote:
>
> Here's a gem (verbatim) from an interview of Helena Bonham Carter, aka Bellatrix Lestrange:
> 
> "The couple met while they were making Planet to better, playing Bellatrix's in could just doesn't witch high of the Apes in 2001."


Snip


Anne Squires responds:

I couldn't figure this sentence out.  But I noticed something else--

The article also contains this statement: "For Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince, Helena also helped Emma Watson by inviting the actress to her house to talk through a scene where Bellatrix becomes Hermione after taking a magic potion."

I find at least two probable errors in the above statement---

I am pretty sure this "help" was during the filming of Deathly Hallows, not Half-Blood Prince.  I can't recall an instance in HBP when "Bellatrix becomes Hermione after taking a magic potion."  In fact, assuming that Kloves has changed the plot of HBP, I still can't think of a reason for Bellatrix to become Hermione.  Of course, as I haven't seen the film yet, I could be mistaken.  I think this is referring to the time in DH when Hermione polyjuices into Bellatrix, not the other way around.  So the writer of the article got the wrong film (probably)and the situation backwards (probably).  Thus, I imagine that Emma was helping Bonham-Carter to act like Hermione, not Bonham-Carter helping Emma to act like Bellatrix.  Bonham-Carter, after all, will be required to act like Hermione when alone with Harry and Ron and then she will be required to act like Hermione pretending to be Bellatrix when they get to Diagon Alley.  I am looking forward to seeing this performance.  I think Bonham-Carter can pull it off.  Should be interesting, imho.

Carol also wrote:
> 
> Anyway, the Bonham Carter article is rather interesting if anyone cares about Bonham Carter's relationship with Tim Burton, and she does get around to talking about playing Bellatrix eventually. 

Overall I enjoyed the article.  But, I notice that often the writers of many of these publicity articles obviously have not read the books and tend to get things mixed up quite a bit.  Granted, there is a lot of information to confuse if one is not a fan.  I find more and more references to certain things happening during the filming of HBP, when it is fairly obvious that the incident was during the filming of DH.

Anne Squires




From tonks_op at yahoo.com  Thu Jul  9 05:55:00 2009
From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks)
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 2009 05:55:00 -0000
Subject: Absolute worst sentence I've ever seen in an article
In-Reply-To: <h33f21+4iqi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h340nk+uabk@eGroups.com>

> Anne Squires responds:
> 
> I couldn't figure this sentence out.  But I noticed something else--
> 
> The article also contains this statement: "For Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince, Helena also helped Emma Watson by inviting the actress to her house to talk through a scene where Bellatrix becomes Hermione after taking a magic potion."
> 
> I find at least two probable errors in the above statement---
> 
> I am pretty sure this "help" was during the filming of Deathly Hallows, not Half-Blood Prince.  I can't recall an instance in HBP when "Bellatrix becomes Hermione after taking a magic potion."  In fact, assuming that Kloves has changed the plot of HBP, I still can't think of a reason for Bellatrix to become Hermione.  Of course, as I haven't seen the film yet, I could be mistaken.  I think this is referring to the time in DH when Hermione polyjuices into Bellatrix, not the other way around.  So the writer of the article got the wrong film (probably)and the situation backwards (probably).  Thus, I imagine that Emma was helping Bonham-Carter to act like Hermione, not Bonham-Carter helping Emma to act like Bellatrix.  Bonham-Carter, after all, will be required to act like Hermione when alone with Harry and Ron and then she will be required to act like Hermione pretending to be Bellatrix when they get to Diagon Alley.  

Tonks:

Old lady here... totally confused... befuddled...  huh?? I don't remember Bella being Hermione, only Hermione being Bella. 

It is dark in here, and I hear laughing. Someone help...??? Have I forgotten something? Thanks.

Tonks_op




From md at exit-reality.com  Thu Jul  9 06:57:10 2009
From: md at exit-reality.com (Child of Midian)
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 02:57:10 -0400
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Absolute worst sentence I've ever seen in an article
In-Reply-To: <h340nk+uabk@eGroups.com>
References: <h33f21+4iqi@eGroups.com> <h340nk+uabk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000c01ca0062$7b5a9750$720fc5f0$@com>



-----Original Message-----


Tonks:

Old lady here... totally confused... befuddled...  huh?? I don't remember
Bella being Hermione, only Hermione being Bella. 

It is dark in here, and I hear laughing. Someone help...??? Have I forgotten
something? Thanks.

Tonks_op



------------------------------------
You're not confused, Hermione becomes Bellatrix in DH so Helena would need
to learn to be Hermione not the other way around.

md





From wildirishrose at fiber.net  Fri Jul 10 22:09:36 2009
From: wildirishrose at fiber.net (wildirishrose)
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 16:09:36 -0600
Subject: Why Oh Why
Message-ID: <74CFCE10BFB84B93BADD166AF3F6856A@Marianne>

Why oh why can't Daniel wear a suit that flatters him?  Does he choose his own clothes for premiers, or does wardrobe people do it?

The cuts are terrible.  The pants need to be longer.  The suits make him look so stiff - like he might break in half if he bends over.  They are not age flattering.  The suits looks like something my father would wear.  He don't look comfortable at all.  I'd hate to be stuck in a outfit like that for hours.  Don't get me going about the colors of the last two I saw him wearing.

Why can't he wear just a pair of casual pants, a button down shirt and a jacket?  In good taste of course.  I think it would flatter him more, make him look more comfortable and maybe make him look his age.  He's a young man he should be dressing like one.  Or at least a more comfortable, flattering cut.  The suits don't suit him.

Maybe it's the mother in me that is dressing him.  If it's a wardrobe person dressing him, if I was his mother I'd have something to say about it to them.  Course Daniel is legal age, so she really don't have a say.  Maybe she could make a suggestion or two?

Oh, and Emma's dress the other night was horrible.  It didn't need to be so low cut, anb so glittery looking.  The dress didn't flatter her either.

I'm certainly the fashion police today.  Hope I don't get flamed for the observations.  If so, that's ok too.

I missed the interview on Letterman last night.

Marianne
The fall won't kill you
The landing will

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com  Sun Jul 12 17:42:15 2009
From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com (HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 12 Jul 2009 17:42:15 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 7/12/2009, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1247420535.62.63381.m1@yahoogroups.com>

Reminder from: HPFGU-OTChatter Yahoo! Group
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From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Mon Jul 13 15:11:33 2009
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 15:11:33 -0000
Subject: Undersecretary
Message-ID: <h3fir5+vg2b@eGroups.com>

OK, I need to ask one more translation-related question before everybody starts writing about the movie :-). Can anyone explain better than the dictionary what Umbridge's job is :-)? It is called "Senior Undersecretary to the Minister". I looked up "undersecretary", but "senior" confuses me a little. Can there be a "junior undersecretary" then? What exactly is Umbridge's position, especially from the British point of view? I believe Geoff is on vacation, but maybe someone else knows this. 


zanooda




From wgsilvester at shaw.ca  Mon Jul 13 14:10:00 2009
From: wgsilvester at shaw.ca (William Silvester)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 10:10:00 -0400
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Undersecretary
References: <h3fir5+vg2b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <002e01ca03c3$9c748b30$3f4d6c18@company06b4be9>

zanooda:
> OK, I need to ask one more translation-related question 
before everybody starts writing about the movie :-). Can 
anyone explain better than the dictionary what Umbridge's 
job is :-)? It is called "Senior Undersecretary to the 
Minister". I looked up "undersecretary", but "senior" 
confuses me a little. Can there be a "junior undersecretary" 
then? What exactly is Umbridge's position, especially from 
the British point of view? I believe Geoff is on vacation, 
> but maybe someone else knows this. 

  
William:  
I suspect JKR had her tongue firmly in cheek when she devised 
the pompous sounding titles that Umbridge had. I think it is 
more a jab at bureaucratic pomposity and self-importance than 
an attempt at an actual title.




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Mon Jul 13 18:50:37 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 18:50:37 -0000
Subject: Undersecretary
In-Reply-To: <002e01ca03c3$9c748b30$3f4d6c18@company06b4be9>
Message-ID: <h3fvlt+rj8q@eGroups.com>

   
> William:  
> I suspect JKR had her tongue firmly in cheek when she devised 
> the pompous sounding titles that Umbridge had. I think it is 
> more a jab at bureaucratic pomposity and self-importance than 
> an attempt at an actual title.


Potioncat:
I agree. What was Percy's title? Seems it sounded very important for a 17 year old fresh out of school.





From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Mon Jul 13 19:17:07 2009
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 19:17:07 -0000
Subject: Undersecretary
In-Reply-To: <h3fir5+vg2b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h3g17j+i72i@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "zanooda2" <zanooda2 at ...> wrote:
>
> OK, I need to ask one more translation-related question before everybody starts writing about the movie :-). Can anyone explain better than the dictionary what Umbridge's job is :-)? It is called "Senior Undersecretary to the Minister". I looked up "undersecretary", but "senior" confuses me a little. Can there be a "junior undersecretary" then? What exactly is Umbridge's position, especially from the British point of view? I believe Geoff is on vacation, but maybe someone else knows this. 
> 
> 
> zanooda
>

As to the 'Senior' and 'Junior' aspect, yes, there can be 'junior' Undersecretaries, but I don't think the are called 'Junior' 
Undersecretaries. 

In many companies there are 'Senior' managers, 'Senior' executives,
Senior Vice Presidents, where 'Senior' is part of their title. But lower executive are usually not referred to as 'Junior' executives
other than in casual informal conversation.

So, in short, there are Senior Vice Presidents and Vice Presidents.
The Vice Presidents are junior in rank but not in title. 

The 'Senior' title usually implies that you are in charge of, or
rank over standard executives.

So, Unbridges rank as Senior Undersecretary, implies that she is 
the highest ranking Undersecretary and is in charge of all the
other Undersecretaries.

So, the other Undersecretaries, if there are any, would be 'junior'
to Unbridge, but would probably not hold the title 'Junior', 
they would simply be Undersecretaries. But again, to make a 
distinction, they might be referred to as 'juniors' in casual
conversation. 

So, the 'Senior' title simply establishes that Umbridge ranks
higher than standard generic Undersecretaries.

I used to work for the state university, and once a year the
employees would be asked to submit a form explaining how their
job role had expanded, and why it was justified to give them
a yearly raise in pay.

So, what they had to do was describe the same old job in more
and more pompous language to make themselves sound more important
and therefore worth more money.

If you did a good job, when you received your evaluation, you
would have a more pompous job title and a corresponding increase
in pay. You start out as a janitor and end up as a custodial
engineer, but you still sweep the floors.

I think the same may be true of Umbridge. It wasn't enough that
she and everyone knows that she was in charge of all the 
Undersecretaries, she had to have a job title to prove it.

Or, she may be the one and only Undersecretary, but she felt
she needed a more glorious job title. 

But, none the less, 'Senior' is a common title in business and
government. But those beneath the 'Senior' don't necessarily 
hold the title of 'Junior'.

Occasionally, in law firms, you have Senior partners who are
more or less the founding members, and Junior partners who
has recently joined the firm and have established themselves,
but not to the level where they have contributed enough to 
be considered full founding members. I think that is the only
place, that I can think of, where both 'Junior' and 'Senior'
titles are used. 

In most cased, the 'Senior' title simply means 'Head'. Umbridge
is the head or chief or most senior ranking Undersecretary.

Just a few thoughts.

Steve/bboyminn





From gav_fiji at yahoo.com  Mon Jul 13 20:56:52 2009
From: gav_fiji at yahoo.com (Goddlefrood)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 20:56:52 -0000
Subject: Undersecretary
In-Reply-To: <h3g17j+i72i@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h3g72k+larf@eGroups.com>

> zanooda:
> Can anyone explain better than the dictionary what Umbridge's 
> job is :-)? It is called "Senior Undersecretary to the Minister". 
> I looked up "undersecretary", but "senior" confuses me a little. 
> Can there be a "junior undersecretary" then? What exactly is 
> Umbridge's position, especially from the British point of view? 

Goddlefrood:

Have you ever seen 'Yes, Minister' or 'Yes, Prime Minister'? If so, 
think of Sir Humphrey and you've got a fair idea of what Umbridge's 
job is, or at least what she thinks it is ;-)

And of course, she's the most senior undersecretary (which is 
often to do more with age than competence). The Ministry in 
the WW certainly does not appear to function on a merit system 
for promotion.




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Mon Jul 13 21:10:18 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 21:10:18 -0000
Subject: Undersecretary
In-Reply-To: <h3fir5+vg2b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h3g7rq+2fk3@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "zanooda2" <zanooda2 at ...> wrote:

zanooda
> OK, I need to ask one more translation-related question before everybody starts writing about the movie :-). Can anyone explain better than the dictionary what Umbridge's job is :-)? It is called "Senior Undersecretary to the Minister". I looked up "undersecretary", but "senior" confuses me a little. Can there be a "junior undersecretary" then? What exactly is Umbridge's position, especially from the British point of view? I believe Geoff is on vacation, but maybe someone else knows this. 

Geoff:
Well, I am and I'm not. Let me explain. I should be on the 
Isles of Scilly at the moment but we have had to cancel our 
holiday because our friend, with whom we go on holiday every 
year, has been seriously ill with kidney problems. As a result, 
because the Isles are fairly remote in terms of main hospital 
access and any recurrence of his problems would require him 
being moved PDQ to a hospital by helicopter, the doctors 
deemed it unsafe for him to go there. 

Hence, we have come over to "foreign territory" in Cardiff 
so we can still share some holiday time together. But I rarely 
get totally divorced from the groups because there is good 
public computer on the islands and I am currently using our 
friend's system and muttering darkly about Microsoft and PCs, 
and missing my trusty Mac Mini. >:-|

However, to pick up on zanooda's point, I would agree with many 
of you that JKR has probably gone out of her way to create a 
stuffy, pompous and bureaucratic title for Dear Dolores. 
However, the British Civil Service is renowned for having 
similar sorts of positions in its heirarchy (and sometimes 
creating a position for the sake of having one!).

A similar situation sometimes obtains in education. Many 
schools will have a Headteacher and a Deputy Head but some 
schools need two deputies because of their size. In the school 
in which I worked, at one point we had a Headteacher, Senior 
Deputy and Second Deputy, which is analogous to the set up 
which zanooda queried.




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon Jul 13 22:44:01 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 22:44:01 -0000
Subject: Undersecretary
In-Reply-To: <h3fvlt+rj8q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h3gdbh+niv0@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at ...> wrote:
>
>    
> > William:  
> > I suspect JKR had her tongue firmly in cheek when she devised 
> > the pompous sounding titles that Umbridge had. I think it is 
> > more a jab at bureaucratic pomposity and self-importance than 
> > an attempt at an actual title.
> 
> 
> Potioncat:
> I agree. What was Percy's title? Seems it sounded very important for a 17 year old fresh out of school.
>
Carol responds:

In GoF, Percy would have been about eighteen (I think he has an August birthday; certainly he'd have turned eighteen before September 1 or he'd still be at Hogwarts). At the beginning of GoF, he had a job in the Department of International Magical Cooperation (no job title given), and later in that book, he acted as Crouch's personal assistant (essentially doing Crouch's job for him) while Crouch was incapacitated, but whatever his job title was apparently didn't change. Despite the inquiry following Crouch's murder, he was promoted to Junior Assistant to the Minister (OoP chapter 4) and we see him acting as Court Scribe (presumably part of his regular job) at Harry's hearing. Exactly how his job relates to Umbridge's position, I don't know. Clearly, she outranks him, but I think they both report directly to Fudge. At a guess, his job is clerical and hers is administrative.

I noticed that JKR uses similar terms for the Muggle Ministry. Herbert Chorley (the victim of a bad Imperius Curse who ends up quacking like a duck and trying to kill his own family) is referred to as one of the Prime Minister's "Junior Ministers." His exact job title isn't given, but he's probably an administrative assistant as opposed to a clerical one like Percy, who always seems to be taking notes or writing reports except when he's acting as Crouch's assistant.

BTW, I once had a job as an adjunct senior lecturer, but the title only meant that, unlike adjunct lecturers without a "senior" in the title, I had (have) a PhD. (It also meant that my position was temporary and they hired me to teach only when they needed me, a good reason to leave the university and go into editing!)

Anyway, judging from Umbridge's pre-DH title, I suspect that she's worked her way up through the Ministry and has been around long enough to have quite a bit of authority. She certainly views herself as important--and, IMO, her influence on Fudge (combined with Lucius Malfoy's) brings about his deterioration in OoP. I think she plays on and magnifies his fear of Voldemort and distrust of Dumbledore. (We see a return to Fudge's normal self at the beginning of HBP, wt which point, he's reduced to a mere advisory position.) 

Carol, wondering what happened to both Fudge and Umbridge during and after DH









From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Mon Jul 13 22:43:41 2009
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 22:43:41 -0000
Subject: Undersecretary
In-Reply-To: <h3fvlt+rj8q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h3gdat+fub5@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at ...> wrote:

> What was Percy's title? Seems it sounded very important for a 
> 17 year old fresh out of school.


zanooda:

I don't know, in OotP Percy was something like Fudge's "Junior Assistant" :-). Anyway, even if Umbridge has some imagined pompous title, does this title mean that she is Fudge's deputy? Who is higher than she is? Only Fudge? Or are Heads of the Departments higher? In DH she and Yaxley seem to act like equals, don't they? I need to figure out how to call her job and how to convince someone that she is not just a regular secretary :-). Thanks for the answers, everybody :-).





From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Mon Jul 13 22:50:51 2009
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 22:50:51 -0000
Subject: Undersecretary
In-Reply-To: <h3g7rq+2fk3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h3gdob+h5au@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" <gbannister10 at ...> wrote:

> I should be on the Isles of Scilly at the moment but we 
> have had to cancel our holiday 


I'm sorry to hear that you had to cancel your vacation, Geoff ;-(. Does it mean though that you'll be able to go and see HBP movie this week? Take care,

zanooda




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 14 02:50:41 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 02:50:41 -0000
Subject: Undersecretary
In-Reply-To: <h3gdat+fub5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h3grq1+cle0@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "zanooda2" <zanooda2 at ...> wrote:
>
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom@> wrote:
> 
> > What was Percy's title? Seems it sounded very important for a 
> > 17 year old fresh out of school.
> 
> 
> zanooda:
> 
> I don't know, in OotP Percy was something like Fudge's "Junior Assistant" :-). Anyway, even if Umbridge has some imagined pompous title, does this title mean that she is Fudge's deputy? Who is higher than she is? Only Fudge? Or are Heads of the Departments higher? In DH she and Yaxley seem to act like equals, don't they? I need to figure out how to call her job and how to convince someone that she is not just a regular secretary :-). Thanks for the answers, everybody :-).
>
Carol responds:
"Deputy" or "assistant minister" sounds right to me. But don't forget, when she's with Yaxley, she has an additional title. She's in charge of the Muggle Registration Office, or something like that. (Check the MoM chapters in DH for the exact title.)

Carol, hoping that someone else hasn't already provided this information! 




From alexisnguyen at gmail.com  Tue Jul 14 03:17:46 2009
From: alexisnguyen at gmail.com (P. Alexis Nguyen)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 23:17:46 -0400
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Undersecretary
In-Reply-To: <h3gdat+fub5@eGroups.com>
References: <h3fvlt+rj8q@eGroups.com> <h3gdat+fub5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b6e131bf0907132017y67eac446g181ad08f6c800d7f@mail.gmail.com>

zanooda:
> I need to figure out how to call her job and
> how to convince someone that she is not just a regular secretary :-).

Ali:
Nothing wrong with being a "regular secretary."  Even though the word
secretary [usually] first evokes the image of the someone who does
mainly clerical work, a secretary is also someone who heads a
[adminstrative] governmental department (i.e., someone of relative
importance).  I certainly wouldn't put the US Secretary of State or
the UN Secretary-General as any regular sort.  In other words,
Umbridge would be the immediate subordinate to the dept. head (in this
case, I guess that would be Fudge), given she's senior and all.  Is
there a comparable word given that context?

~Ali, who just had a helicoper circle overhead her apt building,
search lights and all, and wonders if the news will tell her what's
about



From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Tue Jul 14 06:48:07 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 06:48:07 -0000
Subject: Undersecretary
In-Reply-To: <h3gdob+h5au@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h3h9n7+10fdt@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "zanooda2" <zanooda2 at ...> wrote:
>
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" <gbannister10@> wrote:
> 
> > I should be on the Isles of Scilly at the moment but we 
> > have had to cancel our holiday 

zanooda:
> I'm sorry to hear that you had to cancel your vacation, Geoff ;-(. Does it mean though that you'll be able to go and see HBP movie this week? Take care,

Geoff:
This is one perk that has come out of the problem with 
our holiday, I am hoping to see HBP in Cardiff on Wednesday 
evening assuming that the multi-screen cinemas aren't 
jam-packed with young people. That's a thought, perhaps I 
should go during the day; the school summer term hasn't 
ended yet....




From no.limberger at gmail.com  Tue Jul 14 14:25:28 2009
From: no.limberger at gmail.com (No Limberger)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 07:25:28 -0700
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Harry Potter and God
In-Reply-To: <7ef72f90905201812t73557baboa573864225b4c7fd@mail.gmail.com>
References: <002401c9d8f4$3e960a10$bbc21e30$@com> <gv1ukl+8drt@eGroups.com>
	 <7ef72f90905201812t73557baboa573864225b4c7fd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7ef72f90907140725s76e7603bt2214dfcadfb1ea7c@mail.gmail.com>

>>Geoff wrote (to md):
>> (SNIP) it also suggests from your biographical detail that you
>>were never introduced to the real Christian faith.

>No.Limberger responds (on 5/20/2009):
>Which Christian denomination represents the "real Christian
>faith"?  Let's see, that could be one of the following:
>Roman Catholic, Episcopalian, Lutheran, Presbyterian,
>Mormon, Church of Christ, Church of God, Evangelical,
>Pentecostal, Baptist, Southern Baptist, and the list
>just goes on and on and on ad nauseum.

>The bottom line: every Christian denomination or sect views
>itself as the "real Christian faith" and says that the others
>are not.  So, while you may claim that your beliefs are
>the "real Christian faith", the vast majority of Christians
>would disagree not only with you, but with each other as
>well.
>No.Limberger wrote:
>(in response to md's post)
> I couldn't agree more. When something has been experimentally
> demonstrated or repeated multiple times, or when there is overwhelming
> scientifically-gathered data to support a theory, then there should be no
> issues in accepting these as being sound.

>>Geoff wrote:
>>I'm not quite sure I see the tie-in with what md wrote but what you
>>are highlighting are concrete, measureable facts.

>You cannot use this approach when you dealing with things which
>cannot be quantified in this way. you cannot use scientifically gathered
>data to deal with concepts such as love, faith, conscience or hope ? to
>name but a handful.

>No.Limberger responds:
>If you believe in something that cannot be tested and
>qualified, then you have no idea whether it is factual.
>Some Christians are bent on the teaching of creationism
>as if that mythological belief has, in any way, any scientific
>foundation as evolution does.  Some Christians refuse to
>obtain medical care for themselves and/or their children
>because it goes against their belief that they have to pray
>to be cured.

No.Limberger writes:
I came across a news article that ties directly into what I
wrote on this thread nearly 2 months ago: some Christians
refusing medical treatment either for themselves and/or
their children.  In 2008, a couple living in the state of Oregon (in
the U.S.) refused to obtain medical treatment for their
15-month old daughter due to their belief in their particular
Christian sect that rejects all conventional medical treatment
in favor of prayer.  The couple is now on trial for manslaughter
in their daughter's death resulting from medical neglect, which
included denying food to their daughter with the belief that that
would also help heal their child who had developed a lump that
was beginning to block the trachea.  Even when the child stopped
breathing (in March, 2008), the parents refused to call 9-1-1 to
get emergency medical care.  (Article reference:
http://www.katu.com/news/50677407.html.)

-- 
"Why don't you dance with me, I'm not no limberger!"


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From jamiesonwolf at gmail.com  Tue Jul 14 17:31:11 2009
From: jamiesonwolf at gmail.com (Jamieson Wolf Villeneuve)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 17:31:11 -0000
Subject: Help! Hogwarts Crest?
Message-ID: <h3ifcv+it89@eGroups.com>

Hello Everyone! 

I need your help. I'm planning on dressing up as Harry for Halloween...I already have the Gryffindor scarf, Harry's Wand and I already wear glasses. I'm even having a friend make school robes for me. 

But I need your help! Does anyone know where I can purchase/buy a Hogwarts crest badge that I can sew onto the robes? I've checked Amazon and the Leaky Cauldron shop, but came up with nothing. 

Any help would be grand! 

Cheers,
Jamieson (who is very much looking forward to seeing HP and the HBP Movie!)




From mirellebuncab_16 at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 14 12:40:55 2009
From: mirellebuncab_16 at yahoo.com (mirellebuncab_16)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 12:40:55 -0000
Subject: bonjour!
Message-ID: <h3hucn+tngg@eGroups.com>

Hi guys..
I'm glad I am one of the members here..?
I hope I can join you in some topics that you are posting about HP..
coz, you know guys, I am a big fan of HP especially Hermione Granger/
Emma Watson, I really am..
uhm, so, keep doing the good job and God Bless!

       [:x] ,
           Mirelle


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Tue Jul 14 21:39:17 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 21:39:17 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter and God
In-Reply-To: <7ef72f90907140725s76e7603bt2214dfcadfb1ea7c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <h3itu5+m9c3@eGroups.com>

No.Limberger: (in message 39345)
> > I couldn't agree more. When something has been experimentally
> > demonstrated or repeated multiple times, or when there is overwhelming
> > scientifically-gathered data to support a theory, then there should be no
> > issues in accepting these as being sound.

Geoff: (in post 39346)
> >>I'm not quite sure I see the tie-in with what md wrote but what 
> >>you are highlighting are concrete, measureable facts.
 
> >You cannot use this approach when you dealing with things which
> >cannot be quantified in this way. you cannot use scientifically 
> >gathered data to deal with concepts such as love, faith, 
> >conscience or hope ? to name but a handful.
 
No.Limberger: (in post 39347)
> >If you believe in something that cannot be tested and
> >qualified, then you have no idea whether it is factual.
> >Some Christians are bent on the teaching of creationism
> >as if that mythological belief has, in any way, any scientific
> >foundation as evolution does.  Some Christians refuse to
> >obtain medical care for themselves and/or their children
> >because it goes against their belief that they have to pray
> >to be cured.

No.Limberger: (latest post 39694)
> I came across a news article that ties directly into what I
> wrote on this thread nearly 2 months ago: some Christians
> refusing medical treatment either for themselves and/or
> their children.  In 2008, a couple living in the state of Oregon (in
> the U.S.) refused to obtain medical treatment for their
> 15-month old daughter due to their belief in their particular
> Christian sect that rejects all conventional medical treatment
> in favor of prayer.  The couple is now on trial for manslaughter
> in their daughter's death resulting from medical neglect, which
> included denying food to their daughter with the belief that that
> would also help heal their child who had developed a lump that
> was beginning to block the trachea.

Geoff:
That really doesn't address your original remarks about 
experimental support. My reply, quoted above, indirectly 
posed the question "how do you validate events and 
matters which cannot be approached in this way such as 
love, faith etc.?"

Your quoted report tackles a completely different matter.

In my reply 39346, I said:
In the UK, if you go round and ask people what their 
religion is, 80% or more will reply "Christian" ? or
possibly "C of E" (Church of England). If you then 
press them further, it is often revealed that, for many 
of them, the only time they attend church is for a 
christening, marriage or funeral (the famous "hatched,
matched or despatched" trio). But there are also a large 
number of people attending church because they were 
brought up that way and go through the routines of their denomination ? such as prayer meetings, mass, confession, 
Bible studies and such like ? since they appear on the 
church diary. Obviously, the items mentioned do not actually 
belong to onespecific church. If you tackle them about 
personal Christian experience, they may look surprised 
having gone through the sort of progression which you 
mention and believe that that is the sum total of faith.

At the risk of being boring, I have said on many occasions 
that the bedrock of real Christian faith lies with some 
comments made by Christ when he was on earth. "For God so 
loved the world that he gave his only Son that whoever
believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life" 
(John's gospel chapter 3 verse 16) and "I am the way and 
the truth and the life. No one comes to the father except 
through me" (John chapter 14 verse 6). This all hinges on 
"belief".

The great problem which lies here is that if a person who 
is not a Christian believer comes across the sort of 
situation outlined above (which, incidentally, strikes me 
as more Jehovah's Witness than Christian) it produces a very distorted view of what our faith is all about. Christians, 
after coming to faith, are still fallible mortals who do 
things wrong, get the wrong end of the stick and focus on 
things which are not part of the true belief which Jesus 
taught.

Our task as given by Christ is to reach out to those around 
us to show his love and to try to tell people what God's 
love for the world means. Sadly, it is true that Christians 
often get in their own way in trying to do this but to really understand the Christian faith, any serious seeker should 
look to Christ rather than the Christian.










From wgsilvester at shaw.ca  Tue Jul 14 17:02:02 2009
From: wgsilvester at shaw.ca (William Silvester)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 13:02:02 -0400
Subject: Help! Hogwarts Crest?
References: <h3ifcv+it89@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000801ca04a4$ced9ac40$3f4d6c18@company06b4be9>

  Hello Everyone! 

  I need your help. I'm planning on dressing up as Harry for Halloween...I already have the Gryffindor scarf, Harry's Wand and I already wear glasses. I'm even having a friend make school robes for me. 

  But I need your help! Does anyone know where I can purchase/buy a Hogwarts crest badge that I can sew onto the robes? I've checked Amazon and the Leaky Cauldron shop, but came up with nothing. 

  Any help would be grand! 

  Cheers,
  Jamieson (who is very much looking forward to seeing HP and the HBP Movie!)



  

Gryffindor house crest for $5.95 at Just Another Sunset
http://www.justanothersunset.com/servlet/the-3798/Harry-Potter-Gryffindor-Crest/Detail

William



From n2fgc at arrl.net  Tue Jul 14 23:07:59 2009
From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force))
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 19:07:59 -0400
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Help! Hogwarts Crest?
In-Reply-To: <h3ifcv+it89@eGroups.com>
References: <h3ifcv+it89@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <25056801362542B8801B68A4AD53D402@FRODO>

You can possibly find Hogwarts crests (the official ones) at
wbshop.com .
There are also nice iron-on patches at
Alivans.com .

Cheers,

Lee :-)




From bhobbs36 at gmail.com  Tue Jul 14 23:28:21 2009
From: bhobbs36 at gmail.com (Belinda)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 23:28:21 -0000
Subject: Help! Hogwarts Crest?
In-Reply-To: <25056801362542B8801B68A4AD53D402@FRODO>
Message-ID: <h3j4al+c9o4@eGroups.com>

Whimsic Alley has them. If you don't need it till Halloween. 
Here's a link: 
http://www.whimsicalley.com/detail.asp?PRODUCT_ID=60404A




From no.limberger at gmail.com  Wed Jul 15 13:42:22 2009
From: no.limberger at gmail.com (No Limberger)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 06:42:22 -0700
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Harry Potter and God
In-Reply-To: <h3itu5+m9c3@eGroups.com>
References: <7ef72f90907140725s76e7603bt2214dfcadfb1ea7c@mail.gmail.com>
	 <h3itu5+m9c3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <7ef72f90907150642n620a0a0eg6379ed4d13189056@mail.gmail.com>

>Geoff wrote:
>The great problem which lies here is that if a person who
>is not a Christian believer comes across the sort of
>situation outlined above (which, incidentally, strikes me
>as more Jehovah's Witness than Christian) it produces a
>very distorted view of what our faith is all about. Christians,
>after coming to faith, are still fallible mortals who do
>things wrong, get the wrong end of the stick and focus on
>things which are not part of the true belief which Jesus
>taught.

No.Limberger respnods:
Here again, we touch on something that I have addressed
in previous postings: there is no single, approved standard
for defining precisely what Christianity is.  Each denomination
or sect has its own interpretations of the bible and dogmas
built around those interpretations.  While the report
did not specify which Christian sect the individuals who killed
their child out of medical neglect were part of, I find it interesting
that an attempt is being made to differentiate their sect from
Christianity (quote: "strikes me as more Jehovah's Witness
than Christian").  This exemplifies the fact that many Christians
do not regard the members of some Christian denominations
as being Christian in the first place.  No doubt they have the
same exact view.  Assuming that you are a member of
the "Church of England", it would have been more accurate
to state that their actions were not consistent with the dogmas
of the "Church of England" since there is no one qualified to
dictate precisely what is and what is not Christian.

And, yes, each of us is human and capable of making mistakes.
When religious beliefs have such a strong influence over an
individual's decision that harm is caused to other human
beings, then, imo, there is something wrong with those
religious beliefs.  Because religions are often incapable of
having precise definitions for all of their followers to practice,
variances can and do lead to extreme beliefs and practices.
The problem is that those with extreme beliefs & practices view
themselves as being in the right and I would not be surprised
if the parents who permitted their 15-month old daughter to
die from lack of medical attention continue to believe that
there actions were perfectly right.  The fact that this does not
paint a positive picture of Christianity is the fault of
Christianity itself, whose writings are sufficiently vague to
permit such beliefs in the first place.  Given a choice between
choosing between medical professionals or religious followers
for the treatment of a medical issue, I will always choose
medical professionals.  Given that there is no single version
of what is "the true belief which Jesus taught", such a
statement can never be taken seriously.

-- 
"Why don't you dance with me, I'm not no limberger!"


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Wed Jul 15 20:19:35 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 20:19:35 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter and God
In-Reply-To: <7ef72f90907150642n620a0a0eg6379ed4d13189056@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <h3ldkn+fh00@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, No Limberger <no.limberger at ...> wrote:

No.Limberger:
> Here again, we touch on something that I have addressed
> in previous postings: there is no single, approved standard
> for defining precisely what Christianity is.  

Geoff:
(1) Yes there is. As defined by its founder Jesus Christ. 
I have freqently quoted two desrciptions of Christian 
belief given by him.

(2) Jehovah's Witnesses are not considered to be Christians 
because they do not accept Jesus as God




From md at exit-reality.com  Thu Jul 16 01:32:27 2009
From: md at exit-reality.com (Child Of Midian)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 21:32:27 -0400
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Harry Potter and God
In-Reply-To: <h3ldkn+fh00@eGroups.com>
References: <7ef72f90907150642n620a0a0eg6379ed4d13189056@mail.gmail.com> <h3ldkn+fh00@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <005601ca05b5$47619f40$d624ddc0$@com>

They are not accepted as Christians by Christians. I had an ex, drug me to
one of their gatherings, and it was certainly a group of Jesus believers.

Besides, the entire concept that Jesus is the son of god and god but Jesus
who talks to his father so he is either not god or schizophrenic. 

md
in shock, just spelled schizophrenic correctly.

-----Original Message-----
From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
[mailto:HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Geoff Bannister


(2) Jehovah's Witnesses are not considered to be Christians 
because they do not accept Jesus as God






From no.limberger at gmail.com  Thu Jul 16 14:18:30 2009
From: no.limberger at gmail.com (No Limberger)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 07:18:30 -0700
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Harry Potter and God
In-Reply-To: <h3ldkn+fh00@eGroups.com>
References: <7ef72f90907150642n620a0a0eg6379ed4d13189056@mail.gmail.com>
	 <h3ldkn+fh00@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <7ef72f90907160718id9946ebgc9742dc3d73a9d33@mail.gmail.com>

>No.Limberger:
> Here again, we touch on something that I have addressed
> in previous postings: there is no single, approved standard
> for defining precisely what Christianity is.

>Geoff:
>(1) Yes there is. As defined by its founder Jesus Christ.
>I have freqently quoted two desrciptions of Christian
>belief given by him.

>(2) Jehovah's Witnesses are not considered to be Christians
>because they do not accept Jesus as God

No.Limberger responds:
You and your denomination (presumably, the Church of
England) have interpreted the bible in such a way to define
how you & your denomination define Christianity.  This is
no different from any other Christian denomination/sect
that does exactly the same thing.  While you may not
regard Jehovah's Witnesses to Christians, they do; and, in
all likelihood, they probably do not regard you as being
Christian.

The bottom line is simply this: what each individual chooses
to believe is up to each individual.  There are many paths
that anyone can choose to follow.  While one path may be
right for one, it may not be right for another.  Thus, someone
can be Christian and choose from a vast assortment of
denominations & sects to be part of, or the individual can
choose from any number of other religions, most of which
have their own internal denominations & sects.  An individual
may also choose to reject religion entirely, which is also a
valid path.

-- 
"Why don't you dance with me, I'm not no limberger!"


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Thu Jul 16 18:29:08 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 18:29:08 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter and God
In-Reply-To: <7ef72f90907160718id9946ebgc9742dc3d73a9d33@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <h3nrhk+70k6@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, No Limberger <no.limberger at ...> wrote:

No.Limberger responds:
> You and your denomination (presumably, the Church of
> England) have interpreted the bible in such a way to define
> how you & your denomination define Christianity.  

Geoff:
Wrong, I fear. You may have missed the fact that I have 
stated on many occasions, including in a number of replies 
to your posts, that I am a member of a Baptist Church. If 
anyone asks me about my faith, my reply is that I am first 
a Christian and second a Baptist.

I have also pointed out a number of times that I became a 
Christian at the age of 21 in my final year at teacher 
training college, my conversion being helped by seeing the 
unity and love shown by members of the Christian Union 
amongst themselves. They did not belong to any one 
denomination but to a wide range.

No.Limberger:
> This is no different from any other Christian 
> denomination/sect that does exactly the same thing. While 
> you may not regard Jehovah's Witnesses to Christians, they 
> do; and, in all likelihood, they probably do not regard you 
> as being Christian.
 
> The bottom line is simply this: what each individual chooses
> to believe is up to each individual.  There are many paths
> that anyone can choose to follow.  While one path may be
> right for one, it may not be right for another.  Thus, someone
> can be Christian and choose from a vast assortment of
> denominations & sects to be part of....

Geoff:
I think it can be said that all Christian denominations 
subscribe to the same basic statement of faith. We see God in 
three ways - as the Father who created the universe; coming to 
earth as Jesus, taking on human form and being crucified as a 
human and rising from the dead to confirm his godhood and to 
offer eternal life to believers; and, as the Holy Spirit, living within the lives of believers. Some denominations add on other matters such as baptism or dedication, prayers to Mary for 
example but I have compared these in the past to having extras 
on a car which are not necessary to the running of it.

When it comes to the Jehovah's Witnesses, I quote from some 
data I accessed that, among other things, "they consider use 
of the name Jehovah, one of the proposed pronunciations of the Tetragrammaton, vital to proper worship; they reject 
Trinitarianism, immortality of the soul, and hellfire, 
which they consider to be unscriptural;"

Some of those positions mean that they do not subscribe to 
the outline I gave earlier. There is also their unusual 
statement of faith that only 144,000 believers will go to 
heaven, which means that a very large number of their members, however hard they work, will be on a hiding to nothing at the 
end.

No.Limbergrer:
> An individual may also choose to reject religion entirely, 
> which is also a valid path.

Geoff:
Perfectly true. But many people who reject religion - or 
specifically Christianity - have changed their views with 
experience and become believers. St.Paul was one of the most 
notable early examples.












From no.limberger at gmail.com  Thu Jul 16 20:02:05 2009
From: no.limberger at gmail.com (No Limberger)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 13:02:05 -0700
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Harry Potter and God
In-Reply-To: <h3nrhk+70k6@eGroups.com>
References: <7ef72f90907160718id9946ebgc9742dc3d73a9d33@mail.gmail.com>
	 <h3nrhk+70k6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <7ef72f90907161302y7e706393h8a330bd9ec25552@mail.gmail.com>

>Geoff wrote:
>But many people who reject religion - or
>specifically Christianity - have changed their views with
>experience and become believers...

No.Limberger responds:
There are also many atheists and followers of other
religions who were once Christian, but rejected it
and its beliefs.

>Geoff wrote:
>...St.Paul was one of the most notable early examples.

No.Limberger responds:
The claims made about Paul's vision in the bible are
unsubstantiated, but his letters and activities in the
first century C.E. had far more influence on the development
of Christianity than the man believed to be the founder.  In
fact, Paul's letters had been written long before any of the gospels
contained in the bible were.

-- 
"Why don't you dance with me, I'm not no limberger!"


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From md at exit-reality.com  Thu Jul 16 20:42:33 2009
From: md at exit-reality.com (Child Of Midian)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 16:42:33 -0400
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Harry Potter and God
In-Reply-To: <7ef72f90907161302y7e706393h8a330bd9ec25552@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7ef72f90907160718id9946ebgc9742dc3d73a9d33@mail.gmail.com>	 <h3nrhk+70k6@eGroups.com> <7ef72f90907161302y7e706393h8a330bd9ec25552@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000c01ca0655$f3113b20$d933b160$@com>

I have issues with beliefs. I don't buy into the idea that the sky is proof
of god or that there is simply no other explanation for existence. To me,
it's like saying we know wood on fire produces heat, so when we feel heat it
is wood on fire. 

I was raised Baptist (hah, hah!) but I never believed, once I realized
adults where fallible I realized that religion was something I could
question, I then looked at it and said, no, it's not real. The bible, IMO,
and Quran, etc, are simply historical documents cloaked in supernatural
narratives that explain the unexplainable. I also view religion, ALL
religion as a form of control and Christianity as the most hypocritical lie
of human existence. But that's just me. I've tried, tried and tried to
figure out why people believe and I can't.

md

-----Original Message-----
From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
[mailto:HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of No Limberger


>Geoff wrote:
>But many people who reject religion - or
>specifically Christianity - have changed their views with
>experience and become believers...

No.Limberger responds:
There are also many atheists and followers of other
religions who were once Christian, but rejected it
and its beliefs.
ms/




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Thu Jul 16 20:54:08 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 20:54:08 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter and God
In-Reply-To: <7ef72f90907161302y7e706393h8a330bd9ec25552@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <h3o41g+7la3@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, No Limberger <no.limberger at ...> wrote:

Geoff:
> >But many people who reject religion - or
> >specifically Christianity - have changed their views with
> >experience and become believers...

No.Limberger:
> There are also many atheists and followers of other
> religions who were once Christian, but rejected it
> and its beliefs.

Geoff:
>From my experience I have known many people who claim 
to be atheists or agnostics or whatever but who avoid 
seriously tackling the question of what Christian faith 
is really about and use red herrings as diversionary 
tactics in discussion so as not to have to consider 
faith in real depth. With apologies to the Bard, 
"Methinks they do protest too much".

Geoff (earlier):
> >...St.Paul was one of the most notable early examples.

No.Limberger responds:
> The claims made about Paul's vision in the bible are
> unsubstantiated, but his letters and activities in the
> first century C.E. had far more influence on the development
> of Christianity than the man believed to be the founder.  In
> fact, Paul's letters had been written long before any of the gospels
> contained in the bible were.

Geoff:
I think the fact that Paul makes references to his 
experiences ought to substantiate the facts.

The fact that Paul's writings pre-date the gospels is 
not really relevant to the above. Paul was writing fairly 
soon after Jesus was on earth when there were many people 
around, including the disciples, who could speak of their 
own experiences. Hence, his letters generally tended to 
contain advice and support to the churches he had visited 
and helped to start while on his great missionary journeys.

On the other hand, the information about the time Jesus
was on earth had been passed down orally until a point 
in time arrived when many of those who had actually heard 
or seen him were dying. Thus, it was thought necessary 
that the accounts of the time Jesus was with them should 
be more formally recorded. The gospels and Paul's writings complemented each other to give a more complete record.








From willsonkmom at msn.com  Fri Jul 17 01:40:25 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 01:40:25 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter and God
In-Reply-To: <000c01ca0655$f3113b20$d933b160$@com>
Message-ID: <h3okq9+v5l5@eGroups.com>

 "Child Of Midian"  wrote:
>
> I have issues with beliefs. I don't buy into the idea that the sky is proof
> of god or that there is simply no other explanation for existence. To me,
> it's like saying we know wood on fire produces heat, so when we feel heat it
> is wood on fire. 


Potioncat:
I don't buy into the the idea that the sky is proof of God either. Yet, I believe in God. I don't think anyone can prove God is real or which religion is the "right" one.

I just know what I believe, and I know which experiences have influenced my beliefs. Some people don't believe in love, or in lasting love between two people. I do, because I have that type of relationship. Come to think of it, I have that with a man and with God.

> md
> I was raised Baptist (hah, hah!) but I never believed, once I realized
> adults where fallible I realized that religion was something I could
> question, I then looked at it and said, no, it's not real.
snip
I also view religion, ALL
> religion as a form of control and Christianity as the most hypocritical lie
> of human existence. But that's just me. I've tried, tried and tried to
> figure out why people believe and I can't.


Potioncat:
Well, certainly no one can believe for you. Certainly not the fallible adults. Of course, agnostic and atheist adults are just as fallable as Christian (or other belief) adults.

I think it is particularly sad when I hear that someone's behavior has turned another person from God. 




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Fri Jul 17 01:46:57 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 01:46:57 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter and God
In-Reply-To: <7ef72f90907140725s76e7603bt2214dfcadfb1ea7c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <h3ol6h+e9kv@eGroups.com>

-
> 
> >No.Limberger responds:
> >If you believe in something that cannot be tested and
> >qualified, then you have no idea whether it is factual.
> >Some Christians are bent on the teaching of creationism
> >as if that mythological belief has, in any way, any scientific
> >foundation as evolution does.  Some Christians refuse to
> >obtain medical care for themselves and/or their children
> >because it goes against their belief that they have to pray
> >to be cured.


Potioncat:
Some Republicans protest abortion clinics. Some women burn their bras. Some Harry Potter fans think Snape is dirty rotten git. 

Each of those statements is true, but none of them descibe the group as a whole or begin to define what it means to be an identified member of a particular group.

Back to your post, there are Christians who teach evolution--because they understand it, not because they have to. And some Christians are doctors. So while your statements are true, I don't quite get the point.






From md at exit-reality.com  Fri Jul 17 01:52:56 2009
From: md at exit-reality.com (Child Of Midian)
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 21:52:56 -0400
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Harry Potter and God
In-Reply-To: <h3okq9+v5l5@eGroups.com>
References: <000c01ca0655$f3113b20$d933b160$@com> <h3okq9+v5l5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000301ca0681$4e902da0$ebb088e0$@com>



-----Original Message-----
From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
[mailto:HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of potioncat


Potioncat:

I think it is particularly sad when I hear that someone's behavior has
turned another person from God. 



------------------------------------
Never heard of that happening.

I think it is particularly sad when I hear that someone's behavior has
turned another person to God.

md




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Fri Jul 17 02:09:00 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 02:09:00 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter and God
In-Reply-To: <h3okq9+v5l5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h3omfs+1f6q@eGroups.com>

> Potioncat:
> I don't buy into the the idea that the sky is proof of God either. Yet, I believe in God. I don't think anyone can prove God is real or which religion is the "right" one.
> 
> I just know what I believe, and I know which experiences have influenced my beliefs. Some people don't believe in love, or in lasting love between two people. I do, because I have that type of relationship. Come to think of it, I have that with a man and with God.

Alla:

You know, here is the funny thing, as I mentioned before I consider myself believer in God. And even though my beliefs come from Judaism and Christianity, I certainly do not consider myself a member of any of those religions. But the question I wanted to raise is do you think that it is indeed possible for the faith to stem from experience? Because really I cannot claim any miraculous conversion into believer, I just came to believe if that makes sense. Can faith be influenced by experience?


> Potioncat:
<SNIP>
> I think it is particularly sad when I hear that someone's behavior has turned another person from God.
>


Alla:

I certainly will not proclaim something as dramatic as these people turned me from christianity, but they come very very close. Because you know, every freaking time when somebody on the street wants to stop me and talk to me about Jesus being the best thing ever, it makes me so so so angry. Because to me faith is a very private thing and it is between me and God and nobody, nobody gets to explain to me why I have to believe in Jesus, because I am able to decide on my own thank you very much.

Jesus **may be** the best thing  ever, but you (hypothetical you) do not get to tell me that. 

I think I may want to continue this offlist actually, if I am feeling talkative enough expect a long one from me :)




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Fri Jul 17 12:27:02 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 12:27:02 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter and God
In-Reply-To: <h3omfs+1f6q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h3pqmm+keo8@eGroups.com>

 
> Alla:
> 
> You know, here is the funny thing, as I mentioned before I consider myself believer in God. And even though my beliefs come from Judaism and Christianity, I certainly do not consider myself a member of any of those religions. But the question I wanted to raise is do you think that it is indeed possible for the faith to stem from experience? Because really I cannot claim any miraculous conversion into believer, I just came to believe if that makes sense. Can faith be influenced by experience?

Potioncat:
I think everyone comes to it in a different way. What I was saying is that as a Christian I've had experiences that have bolstered my faith. They are the kinds of things that if I said, "This happened to me and it was God working" some people would just roll their eyes.
> 
 
> Alla:
> 
\ Because you know, every freaking time when somebody on the street wants to stop me and talk to me about Jesus being the best thing ever, it makes me so so so angry. .

Potioncat:
What's worse is when they knock on your door and want to talk to you. 
>





From no.limberger at gmail.com  Fri Jul 17 14:04:09 2009
From: no.limberger at gmail.com (No Limberger)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 07:04:09 -0700
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Harry Potter and God
In-Reply-To: <h3o41g+7la3@eGroups.com>
References: <7ef72f90907161302y7e706393h8a330bd9ec25552@mail.gmail.com>
	 <h3o41g+7la3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <7ef72f90907170704j53f3093brf51c8ae6a1ce318e@mail.gmail.com>

>Geoff:
>From my experience I have known many people who claim
>to be atheists or agnostics or whatever but who avoid
>seriously tackling the question of what Christian faith
>is really about and use red herrings as diversionary
>tactics in discussion so as not to have to consider
>faith in real depth.

No.Limberger responds:
I am occasionally in situations in which someone with
strong religious convictions takes over a conversation
in an effort to quote from the bible and/or proselytize.
I, and others that I know who have been in similar situations,
often want to avoid an argument and either say nothing,
walk away to end the conversation or attempt to change
the subject.

Religious beliefs or the lack thereof are a very personal
choice best left to each individual.  Unfortunately, followers
of exclusive religions (such as Christianity) can come
to view themselves as being superior to everyone else
and can sometimes take it upon themselves to proselytize
and/or criticize others' beliefs that are different from theirs
and may do this very subtly or without understanding
what their statements may imply.  For example, comments
such as "true faith" imply that a faith different from theirs is
not true.  And, if not true, then there is no reason for them
to have any regard for it or those who believe it.  When
religious people use potentially insulting language such as
this, either deliberately or naively, then the likelihood that
others will be interested in what they say drops dramatically.

>Geoff wrote:
>I think the fact that Paul makes references to his
>experiences ought to substantiate the facts.

No.Limberger responds:
So if you get pulled over for a speeding ticket and
you tell the cop that you were only driving 63 in a
60 mph zone, but you were really doing 73, do you
expect your comments alone with no witnesses to
back you up to be believed?  Even the bible clearly
states that "at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the
mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be
established" (Deut 19:15).  Given that there is no
other claim outside of the bible regarding Paul's
alleged supernatural vision, then, no, it is hardly
substantiated.

>Geoff wrote
>The fact that Paul's writings pre-date the gospels is
>not really relevant to the above.

No.Limberger responds:
The fact that someone who never actually met Jesus,
but became the architect of Christianity (not anyone
who actually did know him, if he ever actually existed),
does not make for a strong foundation.  Additionally,
the fact that the canonical gospels were not written
until more than 40 years after the events allegedly
occurred, makes their claims more likely to be
inaccurate, biased and non-factual.  Further, given
that much of the material in the gospels appears
to plagiarize ancient Egyptian writings and beliefs
about other Pagan deities, this too has a tendency
to disqualify what is written in them as having actually
occurred.

-- 
"Why don't you dance with me, I'm not no limberger!"


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From s_ings at yahoo.com  Fri Jul 17 14:17:45 2009
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 07:17:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: July birthdays X 3!
Message-ID: <924940.95355.qm@web63404.mail.re1.yahoo.com>


*putters around the party room, hanging streamers, blowing up balloons and pasting up posters from the HBP movie*

See, at least if I've been late with birthdays I had the sense to go out and find something new to decorate the party room with!

No, I'm not behind on birthdays because I was dancing around waiting for a new movie. More like a busy work schedule in RL. Dontcha just hate when that happens? <vbg>

Missed birthdays were Jen on July 6, Fatima on July 8 and mohammedi on July 10. Belated birthday owls can be sent care of this list or directly to Jen at Foxydoxy1 at yahoo.com, to Fatima at fkh_88 at yahoo.com and to mohammedi at violettaprimrose at hotmail.com.

Nibblies on the side tables as usual and the bar is open for drinks of your choice. Please note the lovely cakes and keep your fingers out of the icing until the birthday honourees have had their share first!

I hope you all had wonderful days and have topped off the magic by seeing the new movie!

Happy Birthday, Jen!
Happy Birthday, Fatima!
Happy Birthday, Mohammedi!

Sheryll, the ever tardy Birthday Elf

Join me at Sirens this fall!  http://www.sirensconference.org/


      __________________________________________________________________
Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! 

http://www.flickr.com/gift/



From willsonkmom at msn.com  Fri Jul 17 15:20:35 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 15:20:35 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter and God
In-Reply-To: <7ef72f90907170704j53f3093brf51c8ae6a1ce318e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <h3q4s3+c3er@eGroups.com>


> 
> No.Limberger responds:
> I am occasionally in situations in which someone with
> strong religious convictions takes over a conversation
> in an effort to quote from the bible and/or proselytize.
> I, and others that I know who have been in similar situations,
> often want to avoid an argument and either say nothing,
> walk away to end the conversation or attempt to change
> the subject.
> 
Potioncat:
That is also true for many of us Christians who find ourselves in a conversation with a Christian of strong views different from our own.

Yet, people who hold strong views--religious, political, whatever, will often try to browbeat others into believing. I agree that religious beliefs are a private matter.




From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Fri Jul 17 15:26:32 2009
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 15:26:32 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter and God
In-Reply-To: <h3o41g+7la3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h3q578+63bi@eGroups.com>

> Geoff:
> From my experience I have known many people who claim 
> to be atheists or agnostics or whatever but who avoid 
> seriously tackling the question of what Christian faith 
> is really about and use red herrings as diversionary 
> tactics in discussion so as not to have to consider 
> faith in real depth. With apologies to the Bard, 
> "Methinks they do protest too much".

Magpie:
I'm curious about this--what does it mean, exactly? Like, how does one need to seriously tackle the question of what Christian faith is really about, and what is considered a red herring or diversionary tactic to avoid considering faith in real depth?

-m




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri Jul 17 17:56:33 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 17:56:33 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter and God
In-Reply-To: <h3pqmm+keo8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h3qe0h+7ru9@eGroups.com>

Potioncat wrote:
> What's worse is when they knock on your door and want to talk to you. 

Carol responds:
As far as I know, only the Jehovah's Witnesses and the Mormons do that (at least, here in Arizona), and you can see the Mormons coming a mile away (always two nice-looking, well-groomed young men in white, short-sleeved shirts and ties--again, that's Arizona style; don't know what it's like anywhere else). The Mormons, at least, are alway polite when I tell them I'm an Episcopalian and happy that way. (I don't tell them that I only attend church on Christmas Eve, if then!) It's odd that they would attempt door-to-door conversion/recruitment. It can't be very successful.

I do want to say, however, that very few Christians refuse medical treatment for their children (the original post in this thread). That sounds like so-called Christian Science to me (I used to hear radio commercials that said, "Christian Science heals!")

And although people have died in religious wars (e.g., the Crusades), that's hardly confined to Christianity. The Sunni and Shiite Muslims kill each other, and some Muslims want to wipe out the state of Israel. And, sure, some Christians owned slaves in the pre-Civil War U.S., but most if not all abolitionists were also Christian. And Christian missionaries wiped out evils like foot-binding in Asia and infanticide of twins in Africa. It was Christian groups in the U.S. and Britain who first called attention to cruelty to animals and child abuse.

Please. Let's not make sweeping generalizations about other people's religious beliefs or lack thereof. Neither Christians nor Jews nor Muslims, even the fundamentalists who promote suicide bombing, are responsible for all the world's evils. Godless Communism was responsible for terrible things during the Stalinist era, not to mention China (for example Tianamin (sp?) Square), or North Korea, where the former leader is treated as a god and mythological propaganda is deliberately created about him and the people are taught that American soldiers poured gasoline on Korean children's heads and set fire to them.

Carol, who thinks that this thread has strayed rather far from its title and doubts that criticizing a person's religion will in any way deter that person from believing it






From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri Jul 17 18:28:10 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 18:28:10 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter and God
In-Reply-To: <7ef72f90907170704j53f3093brf51c8ae6a1ce318e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <h3qfrq+qt7b@eGroups.com>

No.Limberger wrote:
> I am occasionally in situations in which someone with strong religious convictions takes over a conversation in an effort to quote from the bible and/or proselytize. I, and others that I know who have been in similar situations, often want to avoid an argument and either say nothing, walk away to end the conversation or attempt to change the subject.

Carol responds:
You don't attempt to argue with them? I'm surprised. (I've never had that happen, BTW--only the occasional door-to-door evangelist, and a polite answer turneth away proselytism, or whatever the word is.)

No.Limberger. 
> Religious beliefs or the lack thereof are a very personal choice best left to each individual.

Carol responds:
Exactly.

No.Limberger:
>  Unfortunately, followers of exclusive religions (such as Christianity) can come to view themselves as being superior to everyone else and can sometimes take it upon themselves to proselytize and/or criticize others' beliefs that are different from theirs
>
Carol responds:
But isn't that exactly what you're doing in saying that Saint Paul never experienced his conversion as depicted in the Epistles and similar criticisms of Christian beliefs?

No.Limberger:
> When religious people use potentially insulting language such as this, either deliberately or naively, then the likelihood that others will be interested in what they say drops dramatically.

Carol responds:
Exactly. And the same is true of atheists and agnostics insulting Christianity and, by implication, other monotheistic religions as well. No one was ever dissuaded from their beliefs by having them ridiculed, criticized, or insulted or having another person's belief or disbelief shoved in their faces. ("I'm right; you're wrong" is just as offensive whether the person saying it believes that God is on his or her side or that God doesn't exist.) In fact, that sort of behavior is likely to make them cling more tightly to their own beliefs (or doubts).
> 
> No.Limberger responds:
> The fact that someone who never actually met Jesus, but became the architect of Christianity (not anyone who actually did know him, if he ever actually existed), does not make for a strong foundation.  Additionally, the fact that the canonical gospels were not written until more than 40 years after the events allegedly occurred, makes their claims more likely to be inaccurate, biased and non-factual.  Further, given that much of the material in the gospels appears to plagiarize ancient Egyptian writings and beliefs
> about other Pagan deities, this too has a tendency
> to disqualify what is written in them as having actually
> occurred.

Carol responds:

As far as I can see, you're doing exactly what the people you criticize are doing--evangelical atheism. I happen to believe that Jesus was a historical person and that some of the stories told about him are true while others were intended for a particular audience (either Jews or Greeks) to convince them that Jesus was divine. But I'm not about to say that I'm right and someone else is wrong or that the Gospels are a form of plagiarism (propaganda, possibly, but the parts depicting Jesus' adult life are probably as accurate as most ancient or medieval historical records written before modern standards of accuracy had been developed.

The thing is, my beliefs, which I have not fully stated and don't intend to state, don't matter. They are, as you said, a personal matter. The whole point of religious freedom is the right to believe what we choose to believe, whether that's some form of Christianity, another monotheistic religion, paganism, or atheism.

No one is going to persuade a Christian to become an atheist or an atheist to become a Christian because neither will respond to the other's arguments. Faith and logic are apples and oranges. Now if someone could persuade the fundamentalist Muslims like Osama bin Laden that the West is not the great Satan, I'd be happy, but that's never going to happen, either. 

Carol, noting that the emotional and psychological need to believe in someone or something greater than ourselves is more powerful than logic, perhaps for a reason :-)




From no.limberger at gmail.com  Fri Jul 17 20:58:12 2009
From: no.limberger at gmail.com (No Limberger)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 13:58:12 -0700
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Harry Potter and God
In-Reply-To: <h3qfrq+qt7b@eGroups.com>
References: <7ef72f90907170704j53f3093brf51c8ae6a1ce318e@mail.gmail.com>
	 <h3qfrq+qt7b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <7ef72f90907171358w1cb1d8e5y2c20a5f716dcf930@mail.gmail.com>

>No.Limberger wrote:
>I am occasionally in situations in which someone with strong
>religious convictions takes over a conversation in an effort to
>quote from the bible and/or proselytize. I, and others that I know
>who have been in similar situations, often want to avoid an
>argument and either say nothing, walk away to end the
>conversation or attempt to change the subject.

>Carol responds:
>You don't attempt to argue with them? I'm surprised. (I've never
>had that happen, BTW--only the occasional door-to-door
>evangelist, and a polite answer turneth away proselytism,
>or whatever the word is.)

No.Limberger responds:
I have done so on a few occasions, but rarely.  In most cases,
I do as I previously indicated.  It has happened to me on more
than one occasion in a work-place.

>No.Limberger wote:
> Unfortunately, followers of exclusive religions (such as
>Christianity) can come to view themselves as being superior
>to everyone else and can sometimes take it upon themselves
>to proselytize and/or criticize others' beliefs that are different
>from theirs

>Carol responds:
>But isn't that exactly what you're doing in saying that Saint Paul
>never experienced his conversion as depicted in the Epistles
>and similar criticisms of Christian beliefs?

No.Limberger responds:
To believe in any of the mythology described in the bible is
based solely upon faith.  If anyone claims to have seen or
heard a ghost, unless there are other witnesses and/or
sources to demonstrate the validity of the claim, then, no,
I find no reason to believe it.  My earlier statement that
the claim is unsubstantiated is based upon available
evidence and the likelihood that such an event could
actually occur.

>Carol wrote:
>No one was ever dissuaded from their beliefs by having
>them ridiculed, criticized, or insulted or having another
>person's belief or disbelief shoved in their faces. ("I'm right;
>you're wrong" is just as offensive whether the person saying
>it believes that God is on his or her side or that God doesn't
>exist.) In fact, that sort of behavior is likely to make them
>cling more tightly to their own beliefs (or doubts).

No.Limberger responds:
Yes, I agree with your point.  It can be difficult to find the right
words that express a counterpoint without causing an insult
to the other side in these types of discussions.  Some
people will be offended regardless of how something is said.

>Carol wrote:
>As far as I can see, you're doing exactly what the people you
>criticize are doing--evangelical atheism. I happen to believe that
>Jesus was a historical person and that some of the stories told
>about him are true while others were intended for a particular
>audience (either Jews or Greeks) to convince them that Jesus
>was divine. But I'm not about to say that I'm right and someone
>else is wrong or that the Gospels are a form of plagiarism (propaganda,
>possibly, but the parts depicting Jesus' adult life are probably as
>accurate as most ancient or medieval historical records written
>before modern standards of accuracy had been developed.

No.Limberger responds:
If I (or anyone else) states that there is actually no evidence that
Jesus ever existed, that is simply stating a fact as the bible alone
is not historical evidence.  While I don't dismiss the possibility
that he may have existed, I find the various miracles and claims
about his birth and resurrection to be highly unlikely and too
similar to tales about Pagan deities that existed long before Jesus
may have lived.  If someone is insulted when presented with the
available evidence as compared with their personal beliefs, then
they will no doubt dismiss the available evidence in favor of the
beliefs.

-- 
"Why don't you dance with me, I'm not no limberger!"


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Fri Jul 17 21:35:43 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 21:35:43 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter and God
In-Reply-To: <7ef72f90907171358w1cb1d8e5y2c20a5f716dcf930@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <h3qqrf+t2ms@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, No Limberger <no.limberger at ...> wrote:

No.Limberger:
> To believe in any of the mythology described in the bible is
> based solely upon faith. 

Geoff:
That I find annoying because, although although it is 
obvious that you are not prepared to accept arguments 
put forward for faith, I as a Christian see your use 
of the word "mythology" as dismissive and patronising.

No.Limberger:
> If I (or anyone else) states that there is actually no 
> evidence that Jesus ever existed, that is simply stating 
> a fact as the bible alone is not historical evidence.  

Geoff:
But it is not stating a fact as there are several non-Biblical 
sources referring to Christ so we know that he existed even 
if you are not prepared to accept anything else other than that.






From tonks_op at yahoo.com  Sat Jul 18 02:11:37 2009
From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 02:11:37 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter and God
In-Reply-To: <h3qqrf+t2ms@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h3rb0p+gucb@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" <gbannister10 at ...> wrote:
>
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, No Limberger <no.limberger@> wrote:


Tonks:
I see the battle goes on. If you really want a place to discuss this sort of thing, apart from Harry Potter, might I suggest Yahoo Answers, Society and Culture, subheading Religion and Spirituality. I argue this sort of thing out there all the time. But beware... very dangerious waters, take your wand and invisibility cloak.

Also I will again suggest to all.... go to Amazon and get the book "A New Vision of Reality" by Bede Griffiths.  You will find that there is a way for all of us to live in unity and towards a common goal. This one book covers everything... science, psychology, religion, and more. He even predicts what is happening in the world now, with the collapes of the banking, etc. It was written in 1989.
He talks in the end about a New world view based on peace amoung all religions. Great reading!!  Hard, but worth it.

Tonks_op




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Sat Jul 18 02:51:15 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 02:51:15 -0000
Subject: Book Talk
Message-ID: <h3rdb3+qius@eGroups.com>

It's vacation time. Time at the pool, at the beach, general laid back and take it easy time.

So, I'd like to know. What are you reading right now. How did you choose it Would you recommend it? Will you finish it? 

I'll start.

I have 3 books going at the moment.

The Great Warming by Brian Fagan. He also wrote The Little Ice Age. With these hot summer days, I wish I'd started with it instead. I chose the Warming because it came first. (Although I think Little Ice Age was written first.) It's interesting, but the prose isn't so hot. Now that I've read though the Europen part I'm having a hard time sticking with it.

Mistress of the Monachy by Alison Weir. That would be a great title for a bodice ripper, wouldn't it? But this is a biography of Katherine Swynford. She was the mistress and later wife of John of Gaunt---several of their descendants were involved in the War of the Roses (on both sides) Six US presidents are descended from her. (according to the book.) I'm enjoying it very much, and it ties in with The Great Warming.

The Sacred Echo by Margaret Feinberg. This is a book we're using in a Bible study. I'm enjoying the book, not so much the video that goes with it. But the discussions are fun. It has to do with prayer and Bible reading.

So, what are you reading right now?

Potioncat, who warns one and all if you say "I'm reading this post right now," your toenails will grow 6 inches before you can get your shoes off.




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sat Jul 18 03:25:35 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 03:25:35 -0000
Subject: Book Talk
In-Reply-To: <h3rdb3+qius@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h3rfbf+e09u@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at ...> wrote:
>
> It's vacation time. Time at the pool, at the beach, general laid back and take it easy time.
> 
> So, I'd like to know. What are you reading right now. How did you choose it Would you recommend it? Will you finish it? 
> 
> I'll start.
> 
> I have 3 books going at the moment.
<SNIP>
> Mistress of the Monachy by Alison Weir. That would be a great title for a bodice ripper, wouldn't it? But this is a biography of Katherine Swynford. She was the mistress and later wife of John of Gaunt---several of their descendants were involved in the War of the Roses (on both sides) Six US presidents are descended from her. (according to the book.) I'm enjoying it very much, and it ties in with The Great Warming. <SNIP>

Alla:

I think I will soo check this one out.

Potioncat: 
> So, what are you reading right now?

Alla:

I always have a big list of the books I want to read, so I take from that one the new ones and the ones I am rereading, the ones that are old friends :)

So right now I am rereading War and Peace and enjoying it hugely. Do I recommend it? As some of you know of course I do! Many many times and all over again :) When I am rereading something like that I am putting aside all my other books.

But when I am done I am going back to finishing up Annals by Tacitus. Why have I chosen it? Well, I love Greek and Roman history, this one for romans considered one of the most famous sources, so I wanted to educate myself, but what I did not expect is extremely readable,m FUN book, full of gossips and intrigues.

I also recently finished Ionian mission by Patrick O'Brian, which is the eight book in Aubrey Maturin series and soooo will be back for nine and tenth and whatever is the last book in these series. Why did I chose it? This was one of the recommendation from my friend from this list :) As she said, the best naval fiction ever, but even if you do not care about naval details, friendship between Jack and Stephen is the focus of the series and such fascinating characters they are.

Hmmm, I of course also read male/male romance genre. If somebody is interested in the genre and wants to read a book about romance with good characters and historical setting and NOT sex on every page over and over and over, try Whistling in the Dark by Tamara Allen, which is a lovely story about two new yorkers in 1919 discovering who they are after coming home from war. I enjoyed it tremendously.

Okay, MUST stop, can talk about books a lot.


> 
> Potioncat, who warns one and all if you say "I'm reading this post right now," your toenails will grow 6 inches before you can get your shoes off.
>


Alla:

LOLOLOL. Thanks so much for this post dear :)




From specialcritters at hotmail.com  Sat Jul 18 10:42:25 2009
From: specialcritters at hotmail.com (Lee Truslow)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 06:42:25 -0400
Subject: Health Wizardry in the 21st Century
In-Reply-To: <h3rdb3+qius@eGroups.com>
References: <h3rdb3+qius@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <BAY138-W12C55AE7E1554C35F582FBB21F0@phx.gbl>


Healing beyond Harry Potter

http://health.msn.com/health-topics/articlepage.aspx?cp-documentid=100240939&GT1=34133

 









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Jul 18 18:26:16 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 18:26:16 -0000
Subject: Book Talk
In-Reply-To: <h3rdb3+qius@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h3t448+j8fd@eGroups.com>

"potioncat" wrote:
>
> It's vacation time. Time at the pool, at the beach, general laid back and take it easy time.
> 
> So, I'd like to know. What are you reading right now.

Carol responds:
Erm, um, I am embarrassed to say, "Goblet of Fire." I'm going through the series again as I wait to attend the HBP movie a little later in the month.

Potioncat:
> How did you choose it Would you recommend it? Will you finish it? 
<snip>

Carol:
My name is Carol, and I'm a Harry Potter addict.

I think you know the answers to the other two questions!

Seriously, I have a problem that I can't solve. I've tried other books, but either (like the HP books and LOTR and Jane Austen) they're so familiar that I know them by heart or I can't get into them. I reread all my Richard III books (the ones that don't make me want to burn them) and all my evolution books (anyone want to discuss Australopithecines or Homo Habilils?) and I'm struggling--it has taken me literally two months--to finish "A History of Europe" by J.M. Roberts, which is so full of wordy, awkward sentences (and occasional typos) that I just want to copyedit it rather than absorbing the content. I do intend to read "The Roman Empire and Its Germanic Peoples" afterward. with luck, it will get better.

Fiction? Well, okay, I've reread some academic mysteries like "Book: A Novel" and "Murder at the MLA," but I think you have to have been a member of an English department at an American university to appreciate them. I also enjoy two Richard III-related mysteries, which I do recommend to anyone who's read Shakespeare's wildly unhistorical play on Richard, the old classic "Daughter of Time" by Josephine Tey in which a detective confined to his hospital bed "solves" the mystery of the so-called princes in the tower and "The Murders of Richard III" by elizabeth Peters, which involves eccentric British Ricardians (Richard fans), one of whom seems to secretly believe the Shakespearean version of events. Both of them are charmingly written and amusing. "Daughter of Time" is very British and old-fashioned (set, IIRC, in the late 1940s or early 1950s). I recommend them as light reading and as introductions to a Richard other than the monster presented by Shakespeare.

Potioncat: 
> Mistress of the Monachy by Alison Weir. That would be a great title for a bodice ripper, wouldn't it? But this is a biography of Katherine Swynford. She was the mistress and later wife of John of Gaunt---several of their descendants were involved in the War of the Roses (on both sides) Six US presidents are descended from her. (according to the book.) I'm enjoying it very much, and it ties in with The Great Warming.

Carol:
Biography? Have you read her "biography" of Richard's wife, Anne Neville? Alison Weir is the Rita Skeeter of fifteenth-century history. She may be okay with Katherine Swynford since she was before Richard's time, but I'm sure you can't help noting a marked pro-Lancastrain bias, even there. BTW, "several of their descendants were involved in the War[s] of the Roses" is a bit of an understatement since Richard Duke of York and all his sons, including Edward IV and Richard III, were descended from him on the Yorkist side, and Henry VI and his son Edward of Lancaster were descended from him on the Yorkist side. Even Henry Tudor, ostensibly a Lancastrian though he was only descended from Henry VI's French mother, was a Beaufort (a legitimized descendant of John of Gaunt and Katherine Swynford) on his mother's side. (The Yorkists, of course, were also descended from two other sons of Edward III, Lionel Duke of Clarence and Edmund duke of York.)

Carol, with apologies for the lack of objectivity




From marion11111 at yahoo.com  Sun Jul 19 03:31:52 2009
From: marion11111 at yahoo.com (marion11111)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 03:31:52 -0000
Subject: Percy Jackson movie
Message-ID: <h3u438+7ba1@eGroups.com>

OK, since I brought it up in movies, I'd better follow through over here. :-)

This movie seems to be just the first book.  The director is Chris Columbus. The trailer shows almost nothing, but I got so excited that I clapped when I realized what it was.  Of course, no one else in the theater had a clue and just looked at me like I was insane.  All the kids at my school are reading these, but I guess no one at the theater that day had read them.

The boy playing Percy hasn't been in anything much - I saw Hoot and it was awful - but I always like Sean Bean so there's that.

Here's a link to imdb and they have a link to the trailer.  It's due out next February.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0814255/

Alla - I really liked the last book, but I should have gone back and reread the others first,  I kept forgetting who was who and where we left off with them.  It doesn't help that I never learned mythology well in school so I'm also generally forgetting who the characters are in the mythological world.  What did you think of it?  it was darker than I thought it would be in places.

I was just so thrilled with the way this took off with the kids.  It's hard to hook them into a new series and after Harry Potter ended, so many just kept saying they couldn't find anything they liked.  I would push this series and that series and this has really been the only one that has grabbed a lot of kids.  Well, except for Twilight and that's been mostly for girls.  Some boys, yes, but mostly girls. 

I have high hopes for Haddix's new series (the first book is Found) and I thought the Tunnels series would be a winner, but only a handful finished the second one.  




From md at exit-reality.com  Sun Jul 19 03:48:03 2009
From: md at exit-reality.com (Child Of Midian)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 23:48:03 -0400
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Percy Jackson movie
In-Reply-To: <h3u438+7ba1@eGroups.com>
References: <h3u438+7ba1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000901ca0823$b7df6930$279e3b90$@com>



-----Original Message-----
From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
[mailto:HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of marion11111

The director is Chris Columbus

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Well, I'm definitely not getting in line for that. I totally fail to see hoe
Columbus has a career. I think all of his pre-Potter films where horrid and
I could cry if I have to sit through one and I thought only the strength of
the books kept the Potter film's in the green. But, so many people I talked
to thought COS was sooooooooooooo looooooooooooooooooong and
slooooooooooooow and booooooooooooring that they didn't go to see POA.

md





From kempermentor at yahoo.com  Sun Jul 19 06:00:10 2009
From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kempermentor)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 06:00:10 -0000
Subject: Percy Jackson movie
In-Reply-To: <000901ca0823$b7df6930$279e3b90$@com>
Message-ID: <h3ucpa+t9m1@eGroups.com>

> marion:
> 
> The director is Chris Columbus

> md:
> Well, I'm definitely not getting in line for that. I totally fail to see hoe Columbus has a career. 

Kemper now:
Yeah, no doubt!  But to give him due, I enjoyed Gremlins.
I enjoyed the Percy Jackson series.  The author, Rick Riordan, gave a reading here last fall and I forked over the $10 to see him (which was really $11 too much: what a bore!)  He shared with us the good news that the first book was being made into a movie.  We all clapped and cheered and wooted.  And then he said that even more awesome was it was being directed by the same director as the first two [horrible] Harry Potter movies.  I booed and booed and booed, but my displeasure was drowned out by the naive.  

The cast looks great except for the college freshman playing a middle 12 year old.  

Kemper





From md at exit-reality.com  Sun Jul 19 06:58:05 2009
From: md at exit-reality.com (Child Of Midian)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 02:58:05 -0400
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Percy Jackson movie
In-Reply-To: <h3ucpa+t9m1@eGroups.com>
References: <000901ca0823$b7df6930$279e3b90$@com> <h3ucpa+t9m1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000b01ca083e$445d9a20$cd18ce60$@com>

Directed by Joe Dante, written by Chris Columbus. Columbus's directing
ability is what I question, I've never seen that he has any.

md

-----Original Message-----
From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
[mailto:HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of kempermentor


Kemper now:
Yeah, no doubt!  But to give him due, I enjoyed Gremlins.





From stevejjen at earthlink.net  Sun Jul 19 13:07:08 2009
From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 13:07:08 -0000
Subject: Percy Jackson movie
In-Reply-To: <h3u438+7ba1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h3v5ps+sr5q@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "marion11111" <marion11111 at ...> wrote:
>
> OK, since I brought it up in movies, I'd better follow through over here. :-)
> 
> This movie seems to be just the first book.  The director is Chris 
> Columbus. The trailer shows almost nothing, but I got so excited
> that I clapped when I realized what it was.  Of course, no one else
> in the theater had a clue and just looked at me like I was insane.
>  All the kids at my school are reading these, but I guess no one at
> the theater that day had read them.

Jen:  Cool!  I'd like to see these books in movie form because sometimes they were too busy for me with all the rushing here and there the kids do. I'm willing to give Columbus another try. :D  Thanks for the link.

Marion:
> I was just so thrilled with the way this took off with the kids. 
> It's hard to hook them into a new series and after Harry Potter 
> ended, so many just kept saying they couldn't find anything they 
> liked.  I would push this series and that series and this has 
> really been the only one that has grabbed a lot of kids.  Well,
> except for Twilight and that's been mostly for girls.  Some boys,
> yes, but mostly girls. 

Here in Austin our Book People bookstore puts on a Half-Blood Summer camp that's immensely popular.  Kids from all over the world sign up.  It seems like most of the boys in my son's class (5th next year) have read the series.  Plus the books have the bonus of cultivating a side interest in mythology. 

Marion: 
> I have high hopes for Haddix's new series (the first book is Found)
> and I thought the Tunnels series would be a winner, but only a
> handful finished the second one.

Jen: Good tips, thank you. 





From marion11111 at yahoo.com  Sun Jul 19 13:28:45 2009
From: marion11111 at yahoo.com (marion11111)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 13:28:45 -0000
Subject: Percy Jackson movie
In-Reply-To: <h3v5ps+sr5q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h3v72d+immr@eGroups.com>


> Jen:
> Here in Austin our Book People bookstore puts on a Half-Blood Summer camp that's immensely popular.  Kids from all over the world sign up.  It seems like most of the boys in my son's class (5th next year) have read the series.  Plus the books have the bonus of cultivating a side interest in mythology. 
> 

marion:
That's the sign of a good book series.  4th graders read it and yet my 8th graders rush to check it out also.  





From HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com  Sun Jul 19 17:43:06 2009
From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com (HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 19 Jul 2009 17:43:06 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 7/19/2009, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1248025386.501.99423.m3@yahoogroups.com>

Reminder from: HPFGU-OTChatter Yahoo! Group
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/cal

Weekly Chat
Sunday July 19, 2009
1:00 pm - 2:00 pm
(This event repeats every week.)
Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Notes:
Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour.

To get to the HPfGU room follow this link:
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Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want
to be called.

Enter the password: hpfguchat

Click "Join Chat" on the lower right.

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From willsonkmom at msn.com  Sun Jul 19 19:06:32 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 19:06:32 -0000
Subject: Book Talk
In-Reply-To: <h3t448+j8fd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h3vqro+iek1@eGroups.com>

 
> Carol:
 
> Seriously, I have a problem that I can't solve. I've tried other books, but either (like the HP books and LOTR and Jane Austen) they're so familiar that I know them by heart or I can't get into them. 

Potioncat:
Me too. I have a difficult finding fiction at all.

Carol:
I reread <snip> and all my evolution books (anyone want to discuss Australopithecines or Homo Habilils?) 

Potioncat:
Which evolution books would you recommend? 

> 
> Carol:
> Biography? Have you read her "biography" of Richard's wife, Anne Neville? Alison Weir is the Rita Skeeter of fifteenth-century history. 

Potioncat:
LOL...just my luck! 

She 'has' dropped some inuendo-laced hints about Richard II. I was thinking that I had heard about this author from you, yet I didn't think you read about Swynford's time. So it must have been the Anne Neville book you told me about. Did you read it? It must have been written after the Katherine book, because I don't see it listed on the jacket. Looks like she's written several bios.


Carol:
She may be okay with Katherine Swynford since she was before Richard's time, but I'm sure you can't help noting a marked pro-Lancastrain bias, even there. BTW, "several of their descendants were involved in the War[s] of the Roses" is a bit of an understatement <snip>

Potioncat:
That was my wording, because I took a look at the geneology chart and rather than try to count it out, went for a vague number. Frankly it seems to me that the labels Yorkist or Lancastrian were really sides rather than families. Because everyone seems to have a little of both in their "bloodline." Gees, it's worse than the Black Family Tapestry.

As far as Lancatrian bias, as you say, this is before Richard III's time. The York-Lancaster feud hasn't started yet--but I think I see it coming. Since the main characters are John and Katherine, the book does has a bias toward them. And it is mainly about their relationship with some politics and sociology thrown in.

The book was inspired by "Katherine" by Anya Seton which is the book that started me on historical fiction and started my Lancasterian leanings. Since knowing you (Carol) I've gone from being a Lascaster supporter to pretty much thinking "A pox on both your houses."

But I still like reading the books. ;-)







From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sun Jul 19 21:24:52 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 21:24:52 -0000
Subject: Percy Jackson movie SPOILER for the last book
In-Reply-To: <h3u438+7ba1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h402v4+2aeo@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "marion11111" <marion11111 at ...> wrote:
>
> OK, since I brought it up in movies, I'd better follow through over here. :-)
> 
> This movie seems to be just the first book.  The director is Chris Columbus. The trailer shows almost nothing, but I got so excited that I clapped when I realized what it was.  Of course, no one else in the theater had a clue and just looked at me like I was insane.  All the kids at my school are reading these, but I guess no one at the theater that day had read them.
> 
> The boy playing Percy hasn't been in anything much - I saw Hoot and it was awful - but I always like Sean Bean so there's that.
> 
> Here's a link to imdb and they have a link to the trailer.  It's due out next February.
> 
> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0814255/
> 
> Alla - I really liked the last book, but I should have gone back and reread the others first,  I kept forgetting who was who and where we left off with them.  It doesn't help that I never learned mythology well in school so I'm also generally forgetting who the characters are in the mythological world.  What did you think of it?  it was darker than I thought it would be in places.
<SNIP>


Alla:

I am now excited too. As always I will try to remember to have lower expectations and hopefully I will enjoy it :-)


I really liked the last book, I was extremely satisfied with the twist that he did with the prophecy, however I was extremely unhappy with the death. I was pretty sure that the character who died will play one of the major roles at the ending, but I hoped and thought that he will survive.

Great series though in my opinion.




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Sun Jul 19 21:25:15 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 21:25:15 -0000
Subject: Percy Jackson movie
In-Reply-To: <000901ca0823$b7df6930$279e3b90$@com>
Message-ID: <h402vr+3363@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Child Of Midian" <md at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of marion11111
> 
> The director is Chris Columbus
> 
> :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

md:
> Well, I'm definitely not getting in line for that. I totally fail to see hoe
> Columbus has a career. I think all of his pre-Potter films where horrid and
> I could cry if I have to sit through one and I thought only the strength of
> the books kept the Potter film's in the green. But, so many people I talked
> to thought COS was sooooooooooooo looooooooooooooooooong and
> slooooooooooooow and booooooooooooring that they didn't go to see POA.

Geoff:
Well, perhaps I have a higher boredom threshold because it was seeing COS 
at the end of 2002 that introduced me to HP and hence the books and hence 
these charming groups in July 03.
:-)




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sun Jul 19 21:27:30 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 21:27:30 -0000
Subject: Percy Jackson movie
In-Reply-To: <h40328+oc8k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h40342+m3b0@eGroups.com>

Re: Percy Jackson movie 


Jen:

> Here in Austin our Book People bookstore puts on a Half-Blood Summer camp
that's immensely popular. Kids from all over the world sign up. It seems like
most of the boys in my son's class (5th next year) have read the series. Plus
the books have the bonus of cultivating a side interest in mythology.
>

Alla:

Yeah, this is the example IMO how to use mythology **well**. I still cannot get
over that awful Mary Sueish book that supposedly talks about Trojan war. I
think the author should take notes from Rick Riordan.





From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Sun Jul 19 21:36:19 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 21:36:19 -0000
Subject: Book Talk
In-Reply-To: <h3vqro+iek1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h403kj+43tp@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at ...> wrote:
>
>  
> > Carol:
>  
> > Seriously, I have a problem that I can't solve. I've tried other books, but either (like the HP books and LOTR and Jane Austen) they're so familiar that I know them by heart or I can't get into them. 
> 
> Potioncat:
> Me too. I have a difficult finding fiction at all.
> 
> Carol:
> I reread <snip> and all my evolution books (anyone want to discuss Australopithecines or Homo Habilils?) 
> 
> Potioncat:
> Which evolution books would you recommend? 
 
Geoff:
Well, I'm working through "The Selfless Gene: Living with God and Darwin" 
by Charles Foster. I ought to warn you that he is a Christian as well as a 
scientist but he casts a very analytical eye over the arguments of both the 
neo-evolutionists such as Richard Dawkins and also the Young Earth
Creationists. You may recognise his book title as being a gentle dig at 
Dawkins' "The Selfish Gene".

You may not agree with him but he has written some very thought-
provoking material about the first couple of chapters of Genesis in this 
context.










From alexisnguyen at gmail.com  Mon Jul 20 01:56:33 2009
From: alexisnguyen at gmail.com (P. Alexis Nguyen)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 21:56:33 -0400
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Harry Potter and God
In-Reply-To: <h3qe0h+7ru9@eGroups.com>
References: <h3pqmm+keo8@eGroups.com> <h3qe0h+7ru9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b6e131bf0907191856g994fcc7w75a9a075b976b3bf@mail.gmail.com>

Carol:
> As far as I know, only the Jehovah's Witnesses and the Mormons do that (at
> least, here in Arizona), and you can see the Mormons coming a mile away
> (always two nice-looking, well-groomed young men in white, short-sleeved
> shirts and ties--again, that's Arizona style; don't know what it's like
> anywhere else). The Mormons, at least, are alway polite when I tell them I'm
> an Episcopalian and happy that way. (I don't tell them that I only attend
> church on Christmas Eve, if then!) It's odd that they would attempt
> door-to-door conversion/recruitment. It can't be very successful.

Ali:
Back home in KS, I remember that the Baptist church across the street
from my parents' house sent people to our doors every month or three.
Somehow, the fact that we're generally home on Sundays really bothers
them.  They're generally very nice, never long-winded and only
dropping off literature, and we were always nice in return,
understanding that they're doing what they think is best, but it is
the most obnoxious practice I have ever encountered.  My parents now
just don't answer the door, and I sometimes do because I only come
home for visits.

When I was in middle school, there were people who were outside after
school giving out little bibles (though I never saw this practice in
elementary/high school).

Living in Philly, I have a friend who (I found out recently) doesn't
answer her doorbell unless her friends have called in advance to let
her know they're coming because she's had so many Jehovah's Witnesses
knock on her door.

I know these people are doing what they think is best, and I try my
very best to be nice, but I absolutely detest this practice.


Carol:
> And although people have died in religious wars (e.g., the Crusades), that's
> hardly confined to Christianity. The Sunni and Shiite Muslims kill each
> other, and some Muslims want to wipe out the state of Israel. And, sure,
> some Christians owned slaves in the pre-Civil War U.S., but most if not all
> abolitionists were also Christian. And Christian missionaries wiped out
> evils like foot-binding in Asia and infanticide of twins in Africa. It was
> Christian groups in the U.S. and Britain who first called attention to
> cruelty to animals and child abuse.

Ali:
I completely agree with all your points here, but can I bother to ask
you to cite literature about the Christian missionaries and
foot-binding?  I ask because that was something I studied in college
and never learned about the involvement of missionaries wiping out
these particular practices, so I want to read up on this.

~Ali, who quite agrees that this thread is definitely no longer about
Harry Potter and God and has not been in a while



From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon Jul 20 03:06:14 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 03:06:14 -0000
Subject: Book Talk
In-Reply-To: <h3vqro+iek1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h40mv6+3oom@eGroups.com>

Carol earlier:
> I reread <snip> and all my evolution books (anyone want to discuss Australopithecines or Homo Habilils?) 
> 
> Potioncat:
> Which evolution books would you recommend? 

Carol responds:
Well, all of mine are out of date, but I love Richard Leakey (who, of course, doesn't go out into the field much now since he lost his legs and took on the battle to save the elephants in Kenya. He has or had an ongoing "conflict of interpretation" (for lack of a better term) with Donald Johanson over some bones that Johanson calls Homo Habilis but Leakey thinks are from a gracile Australopithecine. (that's what i think, too.) For starters, I'd suggest Leakey's "Origins Reconsidered" and Alan Walker's "the wisdom of the Bones," which is mostly about the nearly complete skeleton of a Homo Erectus boy. Both are well-written without any unnecessary technical jargon. I don't know anything more recent that's equally readable but am open to suggestions.

Carol earlier:
> > Biography? Have you read her "biography" of Richard's wife, Anne Neville? Alison Weir is the Rita Skeeter of fifteenth-century history. 
> 
> Potioncat:
> LOL...just my luck! 
> 
> She 'has' dropped some inuendo-laced hints about Richard II. I was thinking that I had heard about this author from you, yet I didn't think you read about Swynford's time. So it must have been the Anne Neville book you told me about. Did you read it? It must have been written after the Katherine book, because I don't see it listed on the jacket. Looks like she's written several bios.

Carol again:
No, I haven't actually read it, but I know what it contains--she really believes the "England's Black Legend" stuff. I do have her "Princes in the Tower," which I'm quite literally tempted to burn. I don't want to sell it or give it away because someone might read it and believe it.


> She may be okay with Katherine Swynford since she was before Richard's time, but I'm sure you can't help noting a marked pro-Lancastrain bias, even there. BTW, "several of their descendants were involved in the War[s] of the Roses" is a bit of an understatement <snip>
> 
> Potioncat:
> That was my wording, because I took a look at the geneology chart and rather than try to count it out, went for a vague number. Frankly it seems to me that the labels Yorkist or Lancastrian were really sides rather than families. Because everyone seems to have a little of both in their "bloodline." Gees, it's worse than the Black Family Tapestry.

Carol:
Well, the Yorkists had Lancastrian blood but the Lancastrians didn't have Yorkist blood--until the pseudo-Lancastrian Henry Tudor married Elizabeth of York (Richard's niece who was only thirteen years younger than he was and must have known what he was really like), presumably to pacify the Yorkists and strengthen his weak claim. 

Potioncat: 
> As far as Lancatrian bias, as you say, this is before Richard III's time. The York-Lancaster feud hasn't started yet--but I think I see it coming. Since the main characters are John and Katherine, the book does has a bias toward them. And it is mainly about their relationship with some politics and sociology thrown in.

Carol:
Well, generally, these historical fiction authors are pretty fond of the characters and have a recognizable bias of some sort. Maybe she feels that Katherine Swynford has been unfairly maligned because of the double adultery involved with the founding of the Beaufort line? (Just guessing since I haven't read the book.)

Did you ever finish "The Sunne in Splendour" by Sharon Kay Penman?

Potioncat: 
> The book was inspired by "Katherine" by Anya Seton which is the book that started me on historical fiction and started my Lancasterian leanings. Since knowing you (Carol) I've gone from being a Lascaster supporter to pretty much thinking "A pox on both your houses."
> 
> But I still like reading the books. ;-)

Carol:
Er, that should be "plague" but I get the point. I somehow still prefer the Yorkists, particularly Richard, who was by no means perfect but has my sympathy because he's been made into a monster and can't defend himself. The one person involved that I absolutely can't stand is Henry VII. Come to think of it, I can't stand his mother, Margaret Beaufort, either, or poor Henry VI's militant French queen, Margaret of Anjou. There are moments when I could strangle Edward IV, too. If he hadn't sent his young son off to Wales to be raised by Woodvilles, history might have been very different.

Carol, wondering what history would have been like without the Tudors





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon Jul 20 03:36:35 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 03:36:35 -0000
Subject: Good actions by Christian missionaries (Was: Harry Potter and God)
In-Reply-To: <b6e131bf0907191856g994fcc7w75a9a075b976b3bf@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <h40oo3+cgp8@eGroups.com>

Ali:
<snip>
> 
> When I was in middle school, there were people who were outside after school giving out little bibles (though I never saw this practice in elementary/high school).

Carol responds:

Ah, yes. the Gideons. I forgot about them. They're the same people who make sure that every American hotel or motel room has a Bible in the nightstand drawer. The little Bibles are actually the New Testament, Psalms, and Proverbs (King James version). I always take one out of politeness, so I have three or four green-covered ones and two bright orange ones (I liked the green ones better!). Haven't gotten any new ones since I started working at home, but they used to give them out on the University of Arizona campus.
 
> Ali:
> I completely agree with all your points here, but can I bother to ask you to cite literature about the Christian missionaries and
> foot-binding?  I ask because that was something I studied in college and never learned about the involvement of missionaries wiping out these particular practices, so I want to read up on this.

Carol responds:
Oh, dear. My poor old memory isn't what it used to be. I can't remember where I read about the foot-binding being stopped by missionaries, but the twin infanticide thing is mentioned in Chinua Achebe's fact-based novel, "Things Fall Apart" which I no longer own so I can't quote. Wikipedia has an article on infanticide that mentions the killing of twins and other forms of infanticide in Africa and the Christian opposition to infanticide since ancient times, but it doesn't put the two together. Here's one that mentions Christian opposition to female infanticide in China:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex-selective_abortion_and_female_infanticide

Another Wikipedia article mentions the opposition of missionaries (it doesn't specify Christian, but I'm sure that's what it means) to foot-binding:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foot_binding

I'm sure there are better online sources, but I don't really have time to look.
> 
> ~Ali, who quite agrees that this thread is definitely no longer about Harry Potter and God and has not been in a while

Carol:
I changed it, but maybe you can think of something better!

Carol, who feels that her memory is worsening by the minute





From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Tue Jul 21 09:20:02 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 09:20:02 -0000
Subject: Faith and life (was Re: Harry Potter and God)
In-Reply-To: <h3rb0p+gucb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h44182+g9hg@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" <tonks_op at ...> wrote:
>
> --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" <gbannister10@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, No Limberger <no.limberger@> wrote:
> 
> 
> Tonks:
> I see the battle goes on. If you really want a place to discuss this sort of thing, apart from Harry Potter, might I suggest Yahoo Answers, Society and Culture, subheading Religion and Spirituality. I argue this sort of thing out there all the time. But beware... very dangerious waters, take your wand and invisibility cloak.
> 
> Also I will again suggest to all.... go to Amazon and get the book "A New Vision of Reality" by Bede Griffiths.  You will find that there is a way for all of us to live in unity and towards a common goal. This one book covers everything... science, psychology, religion, and more. He even predicts what is happening in the world now, with the collapes of the banking, etc. It was written in 1989.
> He talks in the end about a New world view based on peace amoung all religions. Great reading!!  Hard, but worth it.

Geoff:
I think that battle is perhaps a strong word. However, I must admit that 
when the subject copped up again, I wondered whether the same old 
arguments would surface.  I have been following the posts from Cardiff 
during last week but, at the weekend, I went to South London to meet 
my new grandson and was divorced from computer contact for a couple 
of days. So I am belatedly coming back to answer your post.

First though. I have been concerned by No.Limberger's insistence that 
he refuses to believe anything which cannot be substantiated and 
quantified in measurable terms. This implies that he does not accept 
anything to do with faith, or hope, or love, things which are the bedrock 
of being human and also appears to be patronising about those who 
seeks a true faith, Christian or otherwise.

In considering Christianity, I would remind those reading this post that  
have observed in the past that there are m any people ? in the UK at least 
? who would claim to be Christian but really aren't. They were baptised as 
infants; they were taken to church; they try to live good lives; church 
attendance means an occasional visit, possibly for a funeral or a marriage 
or a baptism. These peripheral activities and the pursuit of what I might 
term "heavenly Boy Scouting" allow them to believe that this is all that 
God wants.

With that point in mind, I see that Bede Griffiths (whose name is new to 
me) predicts a new world order based on peace among all religions. My 
problem is that this is about religion and not faith and I  view the two as 
different. Which then takes me back o my last paragraph; how far has this 
writer and a number of contributors to the thread have had an experience 
of God or  are just "belief shopping" ? looking for a religion or belief 
system which looks OK but not really seeking any deeper meaning.

You cannot select your belief as you would, say, a golf club. "Ah, their 
rules and facilities look good. I'll join up; if I don't like it, I can always 
look for another club." I have a cousin through marriage who has  belonged 
to at least three different religions; he has seemingly changed just to find 
a belief system which supports what he wants to do.
 
As an evangelical Christian, I had an experience of God which brought me 
to faith. Before somebody "aha!", let me say that I was not looking for faith. 
I had said in previous posts that I became a Christian in my last term at 
teacher training college. I was friends with many guys in the Christian 
Union but that was for other reasons. I met one student, who later went 
on to be my best man, playing chess. But I did find their outlook and general 
attitude made them attractive people to be with. However, on that day, I left 
home expecting another usual college day. I was not looking for answers to 
life; I had not woken up and said "I must become a Christian today". The 
event was almost casual. I wasn't in an evangelical rally with massed choirs 
and a charismatic preacher; I wasn't in a life-threatening situation which 
might have brought forth a prayer. I was in the college kitchen with a fellow 
student washing up coffee cups. I cannot recall the conversation but at one 
point I made a comment along the lines "Christians should do
.." whereupon 
Pete said "What do you mean by Christian?" I gave a rather woolly answer 
similar to things I wrote a couple of paragraphs previously. Pete went off 
and brought back his Bible and talked to me about his faith and after some 
while, a whole series of jigsaw pieces fell into place and I got the "light bulb 
in the head" reaction. I felt the presence of God. I am a fairly pragmatic 
person and have only experienced that sensation again occasionally but it 
created my foundation of faith. I believe that, on that particular day, I was 
open to listening to God in a way that I wasn't always.

So, I can only echo Martin Luther and say "Here I stand. I can do no other".

What I have written will leave some of you cold; some of you dismissive; 
some of you possibly irritated I hope that your reaction may also be to think 
about life and its meaning. I am not asking you all to agree with me, but just 
hope that you have a foundation for what you think life is all about and are 
not just dodging the issue and just eddying gently in the flow of everyday life.






From tonks_op at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 21 23:10:42 2009
From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 23:10:42 -0000
Subject: Faith and life (was Re: Harry Potter and God)
In-Reply-To: <h44182+g9hg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h45hti+jod9@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" <gbannister10 at ...> wrote:
>
> > Tonks:
> > I see the battle goes on. SNIP> > Also I will again suggest to all.... go to Amazon and get the book "A New Vision of Reality" by Bede Griffiths.  You will find that there is a way for all of us to live in unity and towards a common goal. This one book covers everything... science, psychology, religion, and more. He even predicts what is happening in the world now, with the collapes of the banking, etc. It was written in 1989. 
> > He talks in the end about a New world view based on peace amoung all religions. Great reading!!  Hard, but worth it.
> 
> Geoff:
> I think that battle is perhaps a strong word. However, I must admit that 
> when the subject copped up again, I wondered whether the same old 
> arguments would surface.  SNIP> 
> In considering Christianity, I would remind those reading this post that have observed in the past that there are many people ? in the UK at least ? who would claim to be Christian but really aren't. 
> 
> With that point in mind, I see that Bede Griffiths (whose name is new to me) predicts a new world order based on peace among all religions. My problem is that this is about religion and not faith and I  view the two as different. 

Tonks:
As you might remember, I am an Anglican, high church, in the U.S. 

Bede Griffiths was one of you.. He was British and a student and friend of C.S. Lewis. He was once an Atheist, like Lewis, then Griffiths became a RC Benedictine monk and went to India to found a monastery there. Again I recommend his book to everyone I am can, no matter what your belief. It truly is a New Vision of Reality. And Geoff, if you hang in there to the end of the book, you will be suprised...  like you might be with the ending of Harry Potter. I will not give it away, because I want everyone to read it. It is very deep, and difficult in area where he is explaining the Hindu religion, but you will learn a lot. He really does cover EVERYTHING in the field of spirituality and the human being. I would love to discuss it with anyone who does read it.

Tonks_op




From md at exit-reality.com  Tue Jul 21 23:50:57 2009
From: md at exit-reality.com (Child Of Midian)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 19:50:57 -0400
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Faith and life (was Re: Harry Potter and God)
In-Reply-To: <h45hti+jod9@eGroups.com>
References: <h44182+g9hg@eGroups.com> <h45hti+jod9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <000901ca0a5e$179cb530$46d61f90$@com>



-----Original Message-----


Tonks:
As you might remember, I am an Anglican, high church, in the U.S. 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

What does "high church" mean.

I'm an atheist, we're high reality in the U.S.

md




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Wed Jul 22 06:41:34 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 06:41:34 -0000
Subject: Faith and life (was Re: Harry Potter and God)
In-Reply-To: <000901ca0a5e$179cb530$46d61f90$@com>
Message-ID: <h46cau+mmts@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Child Of Midian" <md at ...> wrote:
 
Tonks:
> As you might remember, I am an Anglican, high church, in the U.S. 

md:
> What does "high church" mean.
 
> I'm an atheist, we're high reality in the U.S.

Geoff:
The Anglican church tends towards two wings - high and low. High 
church believers lean towards the sort of practices, ritual and rites 
practised by the Roman Catholic church with quite formalised and 
set orders of service whereas the low (evangelical) wing is freer in 
its style of worship and, as I have pointed out, concentrates on the 
real basics of the Christian faith - belief in Jesus as God in human 
form without all the extras which we believe are not fundamental 
to following Christ.

I have used the analogy of a car in past messages. Each car has 
certain basic things to make it work, Automatic gearboxes, air 
conditioning, power steering etc. are useful add-ons but not 
essential to its operation. So, evangelicals could be considered 
to be the basic car while high church worshippers have all the 
extra bells and whistles.




From jillily3g at yahoo.com  Wed Jul 22 19:27:54 2009
From: jillily3g at yahoo.com (Beth)
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 19:27:54 -0000
Subject: What programming would you want?
Message-ID: <h47p7q+ecbu@eGroups.com>

I work as a reference library and our library was recently chose to receive this exhibit: http://www.nlm.nih.gov/exhibition/harrypottersworld/travelingInfo.html (or try: http://tinyurl.com/dflnb3) I've lined up several programs to coincide with our time with the exhibit, but I've been wondering what program suggestions members here had. If you were close enough to visit one of the sites with the exhibit, what else would you like to see/do/learn?

Thanks,
Beth




From jillily3g at yahoo.com  Wed Jul 22 19:32:56 2009
From: jillily3g at yahoo.com (Beth)
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 19:32:56 -0000
Subject: chose/n/!
In-Reply-To: <h47p7q+ecbu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h47ph8+8plh@eGroups.com>

[Should have proof-read, so sorry!]




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Wed Jul 22 20:06:30 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 20:06:30 -0000
Subject: HBP movie related question (SPOILERS)
Message-ID: <h47rg6+q5cd@eGroups.com>

Well, there is a reason I am asking it here because it is mainly a question for book fans, who saw the movie too.

What did you guys think about Draco showing Mark to Dumbledore on the Tower?

Did it bother you? I mean we know that Draco shows something on his hand in the store, but it is never 100% conclusive that it is mark, right?

Personally I was always sure that it is a Dark mark, so it did not bother me.


I also wonder especially in light of discussions on Main what did you think about Dumbledore telling to the students in his opening speech about another student Tom Riddle also known as Voldemort walking these halls (paraphrasing).

This amused me to no end frankly. I was like, yeah, even filmmakers get that NOT telling people this information is wrong, I thought they wanted to make Dumbledore look better.

Alla




From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Wed Jul 22 20:31:44 2009
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 20:31:44 -0000
Subject: HBP movie related question (SPOILERS)
In-Reply-To: <h47rg6+q5cd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h47svg+j7ee@eGroups.com>

Alla:
> Well, there is a reason I am asking it here because it is mainly a question for book fans, who saw the movie too.
> 
> What did you guys think about Draco showing Mark to Dumbledore on the Tower?
> 
> Did it bother you? I mean we know that Draco shows something on his hand in the store, but it is never 100% conclusive that it is mark, right?

Magpie:
We don't know he shows him anything on his hand specifically. (If it was on his hand there's little else it could be, really.) We just know he seems to be showing Borgin something and moves towards him, but the Trio can't see him at all.

And yeah, I think there are places the filmmakers really do seem to be doing some damage control on characters. LOL!

-m




From Conker251 at aol.com  Wed Jul 22 21:42:25 2009
From: Conker251 at aol.com (Ichben Einberliner)
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 21:42:25 -0000
Subject: An Introduction and question from a new member of this group...
Message-ID: <h48141+k5ge@eGroups.com>

Hello,

My name is Ichben Einberliner and I am a Harry Potter fan. I have read  all the books and enjoyed them all. Books 5 and 7 were my favorites. Book 6 was good due to the shock factor involving Dumbledore and Snape. 
 
But overall the series was good and I look forward to reading the HP 
Encyclopedia when JK Rowling gets to writing it. 
 
Now here is my question. Would you all be interested in seeing Harry 
Potter turned into a MMORPG(Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing 
Game). If so, I have created a yahoo group dedicated to fans of Harry 
Potter who love the series and would also love to see a MMORPG version of the HP series created. The group can be found here: 
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/Hogwarts_Online_MMORPG/ 
 
For those of you who have no idea what a MMORPG is, the following wiki should help clear up some of the confusion: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MMORPG 
 
I hope this is not considered spam because I am not trying to spam you all. I really am a fan of Harry Potter and I am also a fan of 
games(especially MMORPG). I really want to see Harry Potter turned into a MMO. If this were to happen it would be an amazing experience for all involved. If you have any questions about me or the group feel free to ask. Thank you for reading. 
 
Ichben Einberliner  




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Thu Jul 23 02:52:04 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 02:52:04 -0000
Subject: HBP movie related question (SPOILERS)
In-Reply-To: <h47svg+j7ee@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h48j8k+jp1f@eGroups.com>

> Magpie:
> We don't know he shows him anything on his hand specifically. (If it was on his hand there's little else it could be, really.) We just know he seems to be showing Borgin something and moves towards him, but the Trio can't see him at all.
> 
> And yeah, I think there are places the filmmakers really do seem to be doing some damage control on characters. LOL!

Alla:

There was some other place where I also thought they wanted to show off Dumbledore in better light, but I cannot remember where I thought it was. Ugh.

I am going to become professor Trelawney and suggest that they will not show conversation about Dumbledore telling Snape that only he can decide if the soul will be repaired or not.

I would love to be wrong, but I also seriously doubt that Dumbledore's youthful play with muggle domination ideas will be there.

We shall see though.






From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Thu Jul 23 03:14:55 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 03:14:55 -0000
Subject: HBP movie related question (SPOILERS)
In-Reply-To: <h48j8k+jp1f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h48kjf+hf43@eGroups.com>

> Alla:
> 
> There was some other place where I also thought they wanted to show off Dumbledore in better light, but I cannot remember where I thought it was. Ugh.
<SNIP>

Alla:

Sorry for replying to myself, I remembered - when they did not show him playing his little games with Mrs. Cole. I mean it is one thing to cut her completely if they have no screen time for her, but she was there, so I think it is reasonable to speculate that.




From HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com  Sun Jul 26 17:42:08 2009
From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com (HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 26 Jul 2009 17:42:08 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 7/26/2009, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1248630128.618.95126.m1@yahoogroups.com>

Reminder from: HPFGU-OTChatter Yahoo! Group
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/cal

Weekly Chat
Sunday July 26, 2009
1:00 pm - 2:00 pm
(This event repeats every week.)
Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Notes:
Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour.

To get to the HPfGU room follow this link:
http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want
to be called.

Enter the password: hpfguchat

Click "Join Chat" on the lower right.

Chat start times:
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12 noon Mountain US
1 pm Central US
2 pm Eastern US
7 pm UK




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From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sun Jul 26 20:11:43 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 20:11:43 -0000
Subject: HBP movie related question (SPOILERS)
In-Reply-To: <h48j8k+jp1f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h4id9v+5uag@eGroups.com>

Alla:
> 
> There was some other place where I also thought they wanted to show off Dumbledore in better light, but I cannot remember where I thought it was. Ugh.
> 
> I am going to become professor Trelawney and suggest that they will not show conversation about Dumbledore telling Snape that only he can decide if the soul will be repaired or not.
> 
> I would love to be wrong, but I also seriously doubt that Dumbledore's youthful play with muggle domination ideas will be there.
> 
> We shall see though.
>
Carol responds:

I haven't seen HBP yet (still trying to find someone who want to see it with me!) but I suspect that, aside from trying to make DD look better (as they did, IMO, with Sirius Black in OoP), they're trying to make a complex plot clearer to viewers who haven't read the books and avoid unresolved questions like those book readers faced. We were never told whether Harry was right about Draco having a Dark Mark or not; the filmmakers apparently want to make it clear from the outset that Harry is right. (I may change my view, of course, after I've seen the film, but I've read so much about it that I feel as if I've already seen it. BTW, the film actually fell below number 1--first time that's happened to a Harry Potter film, I think. Must be because readers of the books don't like all the changes.)

With regard to DD's Muggle domination ideas, I think they *will* be in there since Rita Skeeter is back in DH 1 and young Gellert Grindelwald has been cast.

Carol, who would love to attend the HBP film with someone who hasn't read the books to see whether that person can follow the plot




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Mon Jul 27 12:01:42 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 12:01:42 -0000
Subject: HBP movie related question (SPOILERS)
In-Reply-To: <h4id9v+5uag@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h4k4v6+mr4u@eGroups.com>


> 
> Carol, who would love to attend the HBP film with someone who hasn't read the books to see whether that person can follow the plot


Potioncat:
I haven't seen it yet either. I haven't read as much about this movie as I have in the past, so I'm going in with less foreknowledge---makes me sound like Trelawney. 

It used to be that my sons and I would go see the movie together. The older had no connection to the books and had tons of questions after OoP. (they started during the movie)

Watching the movies without reading the books does give you a different experience. When I finished DH, he wanted to know what happened---(mainly, who dies?) But his recall of past events and characters from the movies didn't match what I was explaining in DH--it was quite interesting.







From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon Jul 27 18:34:48 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 18:34:48 -0000
Subject: HBP movie related question (SPOILERS)
In-Reply-To: <h4k4v6+mr4u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h4ks08+rc6n@eGroups.com>

> > Carol, who would love to attend the HBP film with someone who hasn't read the books to see whether that person can follow the plot
> 
> 
> Potioncat:
> I haven't seen it yet either. I haven't read as much about this movie as I have in the past, so I'm going in with less foreknowledge---makes me sound like Trelawney. 
> 
> It used to be that my sons and I would go see the movie together. The older had no connection to the books and had tons of questions after OoP. (they started during the movie)
> 
> Watching the movies without reading the books does give you a different experience. When I finished DH, he wanted to know what happened---(mainly, who dies?) But his recall of past events and characters from the movies didn't match what I was explaining in DH--it was quite interesting.
>
Carol responds:

So the boys have lost interest and think they're "too old" for Harry Potter?

Carol, who should have asked an adult friend yesterday but got sidetracked after receiving a busy signal (Am I procrastinating? I really do want to see it. Or do I?)




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Mon Jul 27 20:14:19 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 20:14:19 -0000
Subject: HBP movie related question (SPOILERS)
In-Reply-To: <h4ks08+rc6n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h4l1qr+110a5@eGroups.com>


> Carol responds:
> 
> So the boys have lost interest and think they're "too old" for Harry Potter?


Potioncat:
Michael went to see it with the youth group at church. Between work and college-kids coming through and a trip to take Michal to camp, I haven't had time to see it. I wish I'd gone with the youth group.

Michael says it's awesome. 




From stevejjen at earthlink.net  Mon Jul 27 20:38:09 2009
From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 20:38:09 -0000
Subject: HBP movie related question (SPOILERS)
In-Reply-To: <h4k4v6+mr4u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h4l37h+7gr4@eGroups.com>

> > Carol, who would love to attend the HBP film with someone who
> > hasn't read the books to see whether that person can follow the plot
 
> Potioncat:
<snipping>
> Watching the movies without reading the books does give you a 
> different experience. When I finished DH, he wanted to know what
> happened---(mainly, who dies?) But his recall of past events and 
> characters from the movies didn't match what I was explaining in DH--
> it was quite interesting.

Jen: I can believe that with all the condensing and reshaping found in the movies.  As for the big events, I thought the movie ending of HBP made it obvious Snape was up to something when he killed DD, that there was ambiguity. Then my bro-in-law (movie viewer only) said something like, "So Snape was bad all along; he was just fooling Dumbledore."  I'm guessing Snape's use of an AK was the reason why he interpreted the scene that way.  IIRC the Unforgiveables aren't presented as ambiguous in the GOF movie.




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Mon Jul 27 22:40:06 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 22:40:06 -0000
Subject: HBP movie related question (SPOILERS)
In-Reply-To: <h4l1qr+110a5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h4lac6+10a1@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at ...> wrote:
 
Potioncat:
> Michael went to see it with the youth group at church. Between work and college-kids coming through and a trip to take Michal to camp, I haven't had time to see it. I wish I'd gone with the youth group.
> 
> Michael says it's awesome.

Geoff:
I've reported on one of our sister groups that I've now seem it twice, I usually 
like to see it in the cinema at least three times - it's got a little more "oomph" 
than the DVDs. 

I think I would second your son's view. I have to admit that I like all the films 
in their own way. The feel of each one does reflect the maturing of the 
Hogwarts students and their view of life. I always manage to feel that each 
film has left something out or put in something not in the books and this is 
no exception - an over-emphasis on Ginny and the destruction of The Burrow 
as examples but my initial reaction was  one of satisfaction [even allowing for 
the fact that the Millennium Bridge is an anachronism in terms of the book. :-)].

I have also commented elsewhere that I was particularly impressed by Tom Felton 
in this film. He lifts Draco from a vicious school playground bully into an almost 
tragic figure -tortured and torn between wanting to be one of Voldmort's elite 
and coping with the treat to his family.





From willsonkmom at msn.com  Mon Jul 27 23:21:06 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 23:21:06 -0000
Subject: HBP movie related question (SPOILERS)
In-Reply-To: <h4lac6+10a1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h4lcp2+q5e4@eGroups.com>

 
> Geoff:
 
> I have also commented elsewhere that I was particularly impressed by Tom Felton 
> in this film. He lifts Draco from a vicious school playground bully into an almost 
> tragic figure -tortured and torn between wanting to be one of Voldmort's elite 
> and coping with the treat to his family.


Potioncat:
I'm looking forward to seeing his acting. He was a very good little actor when he was younger. I was watching the first few HP movies some months ago and noticed what a good job Felton does, even when his character is just part of a crowd, or in the background.




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 28 02:48:25 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 02:48:25 -0000
Subject: HBP movie related question (SPOILERS)
In-Reply-To: <h4l37h+7gr4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h4lotp+qi38@eGroups.com>

> Jen: I can believe that with all the condensing and reshaping found in the movies.  As for the big events, I thought the movie ending of HBP made it obvious Snape was up to something when he killed DD, that there was ambiguity. Then my bro-in-law (movie viewer only) said something like, "So Snape was bad all along; he was just fooling Dumbledore."  I'm guessing Snape's use of an AK was the reason why he interpreted the scene that way.  IIRC the Unforgiveables aren't presented as ambiguous in the GOF movie.
>

Alla:

You know, meant to tell you, my friend at work told me that her brother in law, also only movie goer reacted same way about Snape, too funny that :-)

I mean, logically I do understand that AK can invoke this thought, hehe, but to me movie Snape, even after AK just does not invoke this intense erm dislike I have for book Snape. Wierd, huh? Oh I do not like him much, since he is supposed to have done all the same things that book Snape did, but to me he just does not carry this negative energy which I feel from book Snape. I know it is wierd.




From stevejjen at earthlink.net  Tue Jul 28 03:24:15 2009
From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 03:24:15 -0000
Subject: HBP movie related question (SPOILERS)
In-Reply-To: <h48j8k+jp1f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h4lr0v+qrna@eGroups.com>

> Alla:
> 
> There was some other place where I also thought they wanted to show off Dumbledore in better light, but I cannot remember where I thought it was. Ugh.
> 
> I am going to become professor Trelawney and suggest that they will not show conversation about Dumbledore telling Snape that only he can decide if the soul will be repaired or not.
> 
> I would love to be wrong, but I also seriously doubt that Dumbledore's youthful play with muggle domination ideas will be there.
> 
> We shall see though.

Jen: It's going both ways for making the characters look better, like Draco not casting the Crucio at Harry in the bathroom and no mention as yet that Snape delivered the prophecy to LV.  Maybe in the DH movie.  Although with what little animosity Harry showed toward Snape after Dumbledore's 'murder' in HBP, why bother ramping up the antagonism between the two in DH?!?

You know, I missed Trelawney's role in the HBP movie, reading her cards and prophesying doom on the Lightning Struck Tower.

I completely agree with you about Tom Felton, Geoff - what a performance.  He was riveting during the death scene & while facing the fate of leaving Hogwarts with his crazy Auntie.  His last look back at the damaged Great Hall said it all.    





From stevejjen at earthlink.net  Tue Jul 28 03:36:52 2009
From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 03:36:52 -0000
Subject: HBP movie related question (SPOILERS)
In-Reply-To: <h4lotp+qi38@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h4lrok+ncnl@eGroups.com>

> Alla:
> 
> You know, meant to tell you, my friend at work told me that her brother in law, also only movie goer reacted same way about Snape, too funny that :-)

Jen: Funny!  Wonder how many moviegoers-only thought that? 

Alla:
> I mean, logically I do understand that AK can invoke this thought,
> hehe, but to me movie Snape, even after AK just does not invoke this
> intense erm dislike I have for book Snape. Wierd, huh? Oh I do not
> like him much, since he is supposed to have done all the same things 
> that book Snape did, but to me he just does not carry this negative
> energy which I feel from book Snape. I know it is wierd.

Jen: I'm not sure someone like my bro-in-law disliked Snape after the AK though, you know?  Sees him as evil and on Voldemort's side, yes, but not necessarily feeling strong dislike toward him.  More 'oh man, I was fooled about Snape.'

I don't think it's weird for you either, because the movies leave out so many of the incidents that made some people hate Book!Snape, like  taunting Harry and delivering the prophecy.  Even the little moments such as Snape blocking Harry from seeing DD in GOF built up into a case against Snape.  The Occlumency lessons in the movie are different, too.  It's not the same relationship in general; Movie!Harry shows dislike of Snape but not rage because there aren't many reasons offered to hate him. 






From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 28 12:15:01 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 12:15:01 -0000
Subject: HBP movie related question (SPOILERS)
In-Reply-To: <h4lr0v+qrna@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h4mq45+mb6s@eGroups.com>

> Jen: It's going both ways for making the characters look better, like Draco not casting the Crucio at Harry in the bathroom and no mention as yet that Snape delivered the prophecy to LV.  Maybe in the DH movie.  Although with what little animosity Harry showed toward Snape after Dumbledore's 'murder' in HBP, why bother ramping up the antagonism between the two in DH?!?

Alla:

Oh yeah, absolutely. That reminded me another huh moment I had. I am sure you know that in the book I did not blame Harry one bit for defending himself from Draco. I mean I wished he did not use Sectusemptra, but  to me it was self-defense, period, end of story, I was not crying about "poor" Draco and would not have been upset if he died, you know? Here, we do not have Draco saying Crucio and Harry just uses Snape's nasty creation and he does not get detention for that?

To me this was sort of bizarre.

Another moment I thought was definitely making character look better when Hermione's birds did not attack Ron, but were just thrown against the wall. 

And yes, agreed, about Snape and Harry's animosity, I doubt it will even work with same intensity if they try to do it in one movie instead of seven.


Jen: 
> You know, I missed Trelawney's role in the HBP movie, reading her cards and prophesying doom on the Lightning Struck Tower.
> 
> I completely agree with you about Tom Felton, Geoff - what a performance.  He was riveting during the death scene & while facing the fate of leaving Hogwarts with his crazy Auntie.  His last look back at the damaged Great Hall said it all.
>

Alla:

I think Tom is amazing, I totally want to see his next projects now.




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 28 12:18:28 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 12:18:28 -0000
Subject: HBP movie related question (SPOILERS)
In-Reply-To: <h4lrok+ncnl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h4mqak+lroc@eGroups.com>

> Jen: I'm not sure someone like my bro-in-law disliked Snape after the AK though, you know?  Sees him as evil and on Voldemort's side, yes, but not necessarily feeling strong dislike toward him.  More 'oh man, I was fooled about Snape.'

Alla:

Oh I see, I think this is how I may have felt too if I have not read the books, hard to say though :-)


Jen:
> I don't think it's weird for you either, because the movies leave out so many of the incidents that made some people hate Book!Snape, like  taunting Harry and delivering the prophecy.  Even the little moments such as Snape blocking Harry from seeing DD in GOF built up into a case against Snape.  The Occlumency lessons in the movie are different, too.  It's not the same relationship in general; Movie!Harry shows dislike of Snape but not rage because there aren't many reasons offered to hate him.

Alla:

YES, YES in the books it builts and builts and builts and blows up at the end of HBP, tension between them, here I feel no tension, no hatred, etc.

And have you noticed at the end when Snape chastises Harry for using his spell against him, he does not say - you and your filthy father, another attempt in my opinion to make Snape look not as bad, not as crazy confused between Harry and his father as I see him in the books.





From stevejjen at earthlink.net  Tue Jul 28 15:54:30 2009
From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 15:54:30 -0000
Subject: HBP movie related question (SPOILERS)
In-Reply-To: <h4mqak+lroc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h4n6vm+6mqd@eGroups.com>

> Alla:
> 
> YES, YES in the books it builts and builts and builts and blows up at the end of HBP, tension between them, here I feel no tension, no hatred, etc.
> 
> And have you noticed at the end when Snape chastises Harry for 
> using his spell against him, he does not say - you and your filthy
> father, another attempt in my opinion to make Snape look not as 
> bad, not as crazy confused between Harry and his father as I see
> him in the books.
>

Jen: So true!  Snape & Sirius throw a few barbs at each other in the POA movie, and we get the scene of James/Sirius bullying Snape in OOTP, but the fact that Snape is still totally enraged by his schoolboy days and takes that out on Harry is pretty much absent.  Movie!Snape has no trouble differentiating between James & Harry.  He's made a few comments about how the two are alike IIRC.  Sirius is the only one who comes off as deluded as to who Harry is.

Speaking of making the characters look better, I think Kloves or Yates expected DD might look good chatting Harry up about his life & girlfriends.  Ick!  I felt embarassed by those moments.  They seemed unlike even Movie!Dumbledore, let alone DD in the books.




From n2fgc at arrl.net  Tue Jul 28 16:14:15 2009
From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force))
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 12:14:15 -0400
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: HBP movie related question (SPOILERS)
In-Reply-To: <h4n6vm+6mqd@eGroups.com>
References: <h4mqak+lroc@eGroups.com> <h4n6vm+6mqd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <03D3A581F2E04C1EB739327CBA2FF87D@FRODO>

My only question is this:

S
P
O
I
L
E
R

S
P
A
C
E


S
P
O
I
L
E
R

S
P
A
C
E




Does gambin give the Harry /Dumbledore rapport enough jelling so that you
really feel awful when he dies or is his portrayal the usual par?  I always
felt that if Richard Harris had been able to continue the role, I would have
probably cried when Dumbledore dies.  But when Gambin took over, I sort of
felt that I wouldn't miss him, if you know what I mean.

Cheers,

Lee :-)

Do not walk behind me,    | Lee Storm
I may not care to lead;   | N2FGC
Do not walk before me,    | n2fgc at arrl.net (or)
I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at optonline.net
Walk beside me, and be my friend.




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 28 17:09:17 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 17:09:17 -0000
Subject: HBP movie related question (SPOILERS)
In-Reply-To: <03D3A581F2E04C1EB739327CBA2FF87D@FRODO>
Message-ID: <h4nbbt+phn4@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Lee Storm \(God Is The Healing Force\)" <n2fgc at ...> wrote:
>
> My only question is this:
> 
> S
> P
> O
> I
> L
> E
> R
> 
> S
> P
> A
> C
> E
> 
> 
> S
> P
> O
> I
> L
> E
> R
> 
> S
> P
> A
> C
> E
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Does gambin give the Harry /Dumbledore rapport enough jelling so that you
> really feel awful when he dies or is his portrayal the usual par?  I always
> felt that if Richard Harris had been able to continue the role, I would have
> probably cried when Dumbledore dies.  But when Gambin took over, I sort of
> felt that I wouldn't miss him, if you know what I mean.
> 
><SNIP>


Alla:

I do not feel awful when he died for the reasons that have nothing (or little to do) with Gambon's portrayal, as I mentioned on Movie the scene lost poignancy for me after the reveal of what really happened in DH.

But if you were to ask whether in general I feel Gambon has enough rapport with Harry, my answer will be absolutely.

In fact, I thought that change was perfect especially in PoA where I feel that for Harry Dumbledore starts slowly have human traits instead of Godlike if that makes sense.

No, I did not like Dumbledore shaking Harry in GoF, or as Jen noted chatting with Harry about his girlfriends, but I mean, he does what screenplayer writes and what director tells him to, so I do not feel that it is his fault at all. In short he is very much as I would imagine Dumbledore appearance like and in many ways as he would have acted (although not always of course oy).

And while I am at it, I always found the idea that Gambon or any actors should read the books to be strange.

I mean, really, do not get me wrong if they decide to do it, good for them, however I am convinced that the only thing that actors should read is the screenplay, because this is what will become a movie and yeah, screenplay should be good.

But what good for example would do to Alan Rickman if he reads about Snape giving the Prophecy, if it is not in the movie? He cannot portray it anyway and no, as far as I know usually screenwriters and producers do not care about what actors think (with some very very few exceptions).

Sorry, I know I went on to ramble.

JMO,

Alla




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 28 18:23:25 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 18:23:25 -0000
Subject: HBP movie related question (SPOILERS)
In-Reply-To: <h4mqak+lroc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h4nfmt+qjct@eGroups.com>

Jen:
> > I don't think it's weird for you either, because the movies leave out so many of the incidents that made some people hate Book!Snape, like  taunting Harry and delivering the prophecy.  Even the little moments such as Snape blocking Harry from seeing DD in GOF built up into a case against Snape.  The Occlumency lessons in the movie are different, too.  It's not the same relationship in general; Movie!Harry shows dislike of Snape but not rage because there aren't many reasons offered to hate him.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> YES, YES in the books it builts and builts and builts and blows up at the end of HBP, tension between them, here I feel no tension, no hatred, etc.
> 
> And have you noticed at the end when Snape chastises Harry for using his spell against him, he does not say - you and your filthy father, another attempt in my opinion to make Snape look not as bad, not as crazy confused between Harry and his father as I see him in the books.
>
Carol responds:

Along those same lines, I'm betting (hoping) that the filmmakers won't have Harry casting a Crucio and McG calling it "gallant" in DH2.

Carol, who also noticed that Sirius Black was less brooding and self-centered in the OoP film than in the book




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Tue Jul 28 20:24:42 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 20:24:42 -0000
Subject: HBP movie related question (SPOILERS)
In-Reply-To: <h4mq45+mb6s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h4nmqa+tl71@eGroups.com>

 Jen:  
> > I completely agree with you about Tom Felton, Geoff - what a performance.  He was riveting during the death scene & while facing the fate of leaving Hogwarts with his crazy Auntie.  His last look back at the damaged Great Hall said it all.
 
Alla:
> I think Tom is amazing, I totally want to see his next projects now.

Geoff:
Thinking a bit further, another (but smaller) brilliant performance was 
that of Hero Fiennes-Tiffin (nephew to Ralph Fiennes), who played the 
young Tom Riddle in the orphanage.

He was absolutely creepy.

Just in passing, IMDB reports that h got the part not for being RF's nephew 
but because of the close family likeness.





From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Wed Jul 29 14:28:35 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 14:28:35 -0000
Subject: HBP movie related question (SPOILERS)
In-Reply-To: <h4nmqa+tl71@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h4pmaj+h391@eGroups.com>

> Geoff:
> Thinking a bit further, another (but smaller) brilliant performance was 
> that of Hero Fiennes-Tiffin (nephew to Ralph Fiennes), who played the 
> young Tom Riddle in the orphanage.
> 
> He was absolutely creepy.
> 
> Just in passing, IMDB reports that h got the part not for being RF's nephew 
> but because of the close family likeness.
>


Alla:

For some reason I thought that two nephews of his played Tom (when Dumbledore meets him and when we see him in Slugghorn lesson). Am I wrong? Is it same boy?

If it is the same boy, then I did like how he did when Dumbledore meets him and did not like him in Slugghorn's class.

Let me explain. I agree with you that he was absolutely creepy and I do think that this is how he was supposed to be when Dumbledore sees him, after all Dumbledore did see that there was something wrong with him, so public should see it too.

However, he succesfully charmed everybody else in his school years, no? And I had trouble believing that this creep could charm anybody when he was in Slugghorn's class.

Alla




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Jul 29 17:53:56 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 17:53:56 -0000
Subject: HBP movie related question (SPOILERS)
In-Reply-To: <h4pmaj+h391@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h4q2bk+cbif@eGroups.com>

Geoff wrote:
> > Thinking a bit further, another (but smaller) brilliant performance was that of Hero Fiennes-Tiffin (nephew to Ralph Fiennes), who played the young Tom Riddle in the orphanage.
><snip>
> > Just in passing, IMDB reports that h got the part not for being RF's nephew but because of the close family likeness.
> >
Alla replied:
> 
> For some reason I thought that two nephews of his played Tom (when Dumbledore meets him and when we see him in Slugghorn lesson). Am I wrong? Is it same boy? <same>
>

>
Carol responds:

Only one nephew, Hero Fiennes-Tiffin, who "clinched" the role, according to Yates, through his resemblance to his uncle. The older boy, Frank Dillane, is unrelated to Ralph Fiennes.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0417741/

Incidentally, I read yesterday that Christian Coulson (Tom Riddle in CoS) wanted to reprise his role but they told him that, at thirty, he was too old. He'd have been perfect for the older Riddle applying for the DADA position if they'd retained that scene.

I can't comment on the creepiness of teenage Tom as I haven't seen the film yet, but little Tom was rather creepy and menacing in the book as well as the film, and from what I've seen in the trailers, the only problem with his acting is that he slurs his words a bit: "Icanspeaksnakes,too.) But the cold, emotionless creepiness seems right for a child Tom who thinks he's special and already puts his powers to sinister uses. You're right that the older Tom should have learned how to charm and manipulate people, but whether Frank Dillane is convincing in the role, I don't know. Not to be catty or anything, but he does seem to have a weak chin, and Tom Riddle ought to be handsomer (like Christian Coulson, who, despite being twenty at the time, was perfectly cast, IMO). 

BTW, Geoff, I know that Ralph Fiennes pronounces his name "Rafe." Is that the usual pronunciation of Ralph in the UK or a nickname?

Carol, still trying to persuade a certain person to see the film with her and not really wanting to go out into the heat to see a matinee alone




From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Wed Jul 29 20:19:44 2009
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 20:19:44 -0000
Subject: HBP movie related question (SPOILERS)
In-Reply-To: <h4q2bk+cbif@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h4qat0+b8al@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:

> I can't comment on the creepiness of teenage Tom as I 
> haven't seen the film yet


zanooda:

I also found teenage Riddle very creepy, and I agree with Alla that he should to be more charming, with occasional creepiness showing when Sluggy is not looking :-). However, I believe that it was what the director wanted, so it's not the actor's fault. I think they wanted to make it clearer for those who didn't read the book that Riddle was a creep, so they could see future LV in him.




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Wed Jul 29 20:47:10 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 20:47:10 -0000
Subject: HBP movie related question (SPOILERS)
In-Reply-To: <h4q2bk+cbif@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h4qcge+b84s@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:

Carol:
> BTW, Geoff, I know that Ralph Fiennes pronounces his name "Rafe." Is that the usual pronunciation of Ralph in the UK or a nickname?

Geoff:
That is correct. It can be pronounced in two ways: as spelt -  ie "Ralf" or 
as, in this case,  Rafe.

One of the most famous users of the latter is the English composer Ralph 
Vaughan Williams.




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Thu Jul 30 11:13:43 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 11:13:43 -0000
Subject: HBP movie related question (SPOILERS)
In-Reply-To: <h4qcge+b84s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h4rv97+bhqa@eGroups.com>

 
> Geoff:
> That is correct. It can be pronounced in two ways: as spelt -  ie "Ralf" or 
> as, in this case,  Rafe.


Potioncat:
Rafe and Ralf are also used in the southern US. 




From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Fri Jul 31 01:50:23 2009
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 01:50:23 -0000
Subject: Silly question
Message-ID: <h4tikv+loel@eGroups.com>

Here is a sentence: "The graveyard is full of the names of ancient magical families, and this accounts, no doubt, for the stories of hauntings that have dogged the little church for many centuries".

My question may seem a little silly, but since there is an argument, I have to ask: what exactly "have dogged" that church, stories or hauntings :-)? Thank you! 






From alexisnguyen at gmail.com  Fri Jul 31 02:42:04 2009
From: alexisnguyen at gmail.com (P. Alexis Nguyen)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 22:42:04 -0400
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Silly question
In-Reply-To: <h4tikv+loel@eGroups.com>
References: <h4tikv+loel@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <b6e131bf0907301942i4347ed40vc10564b10a42ba5a@mail.gmail.com>

zanooda:
> Here is a sentence: "The graveyard is full of the names of ancient magical
> families, and this accounts, no doubt, for the stories of hauntings that
> have dogged the little church for many centuries".
>
> My question may seem a little silly, but since there is an argument, I have
> to ask: what exactly "have dogged" that church, stories or hauntings :-)?
> Thank you!

Not a silly question at all!!!  I've rewritten many a sentences at
work just to clear up such problems (and it is an unclear sentence if
one thinks about it).  :)

When I first read this (briefly and quickly), I thought it seemed
fairly clear that the "stories of the hauntings" are what "dogged the
little church" for the simple reason that it's standard speaking
convention (because it's a rare person who speaks perfect English -
I've known a very few people in the course of my life who did, no
dangling modifiers or anything, and they all sounded very, very odd).
It could also reasonably be read as the hauntings dogged the little
church and there are many stories.  Either way, though, I think the
results are similar (because there are both hauntings and stories and
both have dogged the church).

In short, I vote for the stories dogging the church.

~Ali, who thinks that English is far and away the most difficult
language she has ever learned and that it doesn't help when things
like the GMail spell check says "hauntings" isn't a real word



From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri Jul 31 03:15:37 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 03:15:37 -0000
Subject: Silly question
In-Reply-To: <b6e131bf0907301942i4347ed40vc10564b10a42ba5a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <h4tnkp+ftnn@eGroups.com>

zanooda:
> > Here is a sentence: "The graveyard is full of the names of ancient magical families, and this accounts, no doubt, for the stories of hauntings that have dogged the little church for many centuries".
> >
> > My question may seem a little silly, but since there is an argument, I have to ask: what exactly "have dogged" that church, stories or hauntings :-)?
> > Thank you!

Ali replied: 
> Not a silly question at all!!!  I've rewritten many a sentences at work just to clear up such problems (and it is an unclear sentence if one thinks about it).  :)
><snip>
> It could also reasonably be read as the hauntings dogged the little church and there are many stories.  Either way, though, I think the results are similar (because there are both hauntings and stories and both have dogged the church).
> 
> In short, I vote for the stories dogging the church.
<snip>

Carol responds:
I agree with Ali that it's not a silly question (your never are, zanooda!) and that the sentence is rather poorly written. Either reading or both could be correct. However, the sentence structure suggests that the stories, not the hauntings, have "dogged" the church, and it makes more sense that stories (rumors) would (figuratively) follow the church or its parishioners around like a pesky dog than that "hauntings" would. Also, I'm pretty sure that most of the Muggles in the area would dismiss the "hauntings" as imaginary (whereas we, as loyal HP fans, can be pretty sure that the ghosts are as "real" [within the context of the story] as Nearly Headless Nick or Moaning Myrtle).

So I also vote for "stories" despite initially having the opposite reaction. Still, though, I have trouble conceiving of either stories or hauntings "dogging" a church.

I was trying to account for the verb tense and the Dumbledorish style; I just realized that it must be a passage from Bathilda Bagshot's "History of Magic."

Carol, whose spell check doesn't mind "hauntings" but rejects "Dumbledorish"




From lizzy1933 at yahoo.com  Fri Jul 31 03:36:56 2009
From: lizzy1933 at yahoo.com (lizzie_snape)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 03:36:56 -0000
Subject: HBP movie related question (SPOILERS)
In-Reply-To: <h4rv97+bhqa@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h4toso+fbub@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at ...> wrote:
>
> Rafe and Ralf are also used in the southern US.
>

Yes, but when it's pronounced 'Rafe' in the US (not just the South), it's spelled 'Rafe', not 'Ralph'.

Lizzie 




From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Fri Jul 31 06:12:24 2009
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 06:12:24 -0000
Subject: Silly question
In-Reply-To: <b6e131bf0907301942i4347ed40vc10564b10a42ba5a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <h4u208+eug5@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "P. Alexis Nguyen" <alexisnguyen at ...> wrote:

> Not a silly question at all!!!


zanooda:

It's just one of those cases when it seems that the answer should be obvious, but it isn't, so you start thinking that it must be obvious to everybody else and you are the only one who don't get it :-). Especially when you know someone who understands the sentence differently.


> Ali wrote: 

> It could also reasonably be read as the hauntings dogged the little
> church and there are many stories. 


zanooda:

That's what I thought at first, but then something seemed a little off, because this way it sounds as if those "hauntings" were a fact (hauntings that have dogged the church for centuries...). OTOH, "the stories" suggest not a fact, but, you know, "ghost stories", stories that not many people believe :-). So I decided that it's more plausible that they were "the stories that have dogged...", but I was not sure... ;-(. 


< Ali:
 
> it doesn't help when things like the GMail spell check says
> "hauntings" isn't a real word


zanooda:

LOL! Yeah, not every dictionary even gives it as a noun, only as an adjective. 






From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Fri Jul 31 06:18:30 2009
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 06:18:30 -0000
Subject: Silly question
In-Reply-To: <h4tnkp+ftnn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h4u2bm+rm8h@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:


> I was trying to account for the verb tense and the 
> Dumbledorish style; I just realized that it must be 
> a passage from Bathilda Bagshot's "History of Magic."


zanooda:

Oops, sorry, I forgot! Yes, it's "Godric's Hollow" chapter, Hermione reading to Harry a passage from "A History of Magic" :-).





From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Fri Jul 31 06:29:25 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 06:29:25 -0000
Subject: Silly question
In-Reply-To: <h4tikv+loel@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h4u305+5rg2@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "zanooda2" <zanooda2 at ...> wrote:

zanooda:
> Here is a sentence: "The graveyard is full of the names of ancient magical families, and this accounts, no doubt, for the stories of hauntings that have dogged the little church for many centuries".
> 
> My question may seem a little silly, but since there is an argument, I have to ask: what exactly "have dogged" that church, stories or hauntings :-)? Thank you!

Geoff:
To me, it's no contest - it's "stories".

Try leaving out this word and the sentence is meaningless. Leave out 
"of hauntings" and the sentence is gramatically correct although the 
question then would be "stories of what?".

I agree with Ali in that my dictionary doesn't give "haunting" as a noun. 
However, as a UK English speaker, I have seen it used, and would use it 
myself, as a noun.





From willsonkmom at msn.com  Fri Jul 31 11:42:54 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 11:42:54 -0000
Subject: HBP movie related question (SPOILERS)
In-Reply-To: <h4toso+fbub@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h4ulbu+nt1n@eGroups.com>

Lizzie 
> Yes, but when it's pronounced 'Rafe' in the US (not just the South), it's spelled 'Rafe', not 'Ralph'.
> 


Potioncat:
Not always. My cousin Rafe--his real name was Ralph but we called him Rafe--spelled his name Ralph.

I'm not sure if I ever met him, but I grew up hearing about "Rafe-his-real-name-is-Ralph-but-we-called-him-Rafe."   







From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Fri Jul 31 14:45:06 2009
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 14:45:06 -0000
Subject: HBP movie related question (SPOILERS)
In-Reply-To: <h4qcge+b84s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h4v01i+b7nk@eGroups.com>

> Carol:
> > BTW, Geoff, I know that Ralph Fiennes pronounces his name "Rafe." Is that the usual pronunciation of Ralph in the UK or a nickname?
> 
> Geoff:
> That is correct. It can be pronounced in two ways: as spelt -  ie "Ralf" or 
> as, in this case,  Rafe.
> 
> One of the most famous users of the latter is the English composer Ralph 
> Vaughan Williams.

Magpie:
I read a book once where the difference sort of pointed out a class issue as well. The working class family pronounced it Ralf but the actors he worked with pronounced it Rafe and he went with that because he preferred it. 

-m





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri Jul 31 15:06:29 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 15:06:29 -0000
Subject: HBP movie related question (SPOILERS)
In-Reply-To: <h4ulbu+nt1n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h4v19l+q20k@eGroups.com>

Lizzie 
> > Yes, but when it's pronounced 'Rafe' in the US (not just the South), it's spelled 'Rafe', not 'Ralph'.
 
> Potioncat:
> Not always. My cousin Rafe--his real name was Ralph but we called him Rafe--spelled his name Ralph.
> 
> I'm not sure if I ever met him, but I grew up hearing about "Rafe-his-real-name-is-Ralph-but-we-called-him-Rafe."
>
Carol responds:
So in that case Rafe would be a nickname, not an alternate pronunciation, right? Otherwise, your family members would say, "His name is Rafe, spelled R-a-l-p-h," which is apparently the case with Ralph Fiennes, who is still "Ralf" in my head because of the spelling. (I suppose I'm as bad in that respect as people for whom Hermione is "Hermoine." *Those* people could benefit from a spell check!)

BTW, I'm almost certain that I've read somewhere about a "Rafe" (spelled that way) in Richard III's time, but since I don't recall his last name, I can't look him up. (Speaking of spell checks, mine wants me to change "III's'" to "ii i's." What the--?

Carol, who thinks that Rafe and Ralph are both rather odd names and wouldn't have given either to her son if she had one




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Fri Jul 31 16:29:24 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 16:29:24 -0000
Subject: HBP movie related question (SPOILERS)
In-Reply-To: <h4v19l+q20k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h4v654+r1o2@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:

Lizzie 
> > > Yes, but when it's pronounced 'Rafe' in the US (not just the South), it's spelled 'Rafe', not 'Ralph'.

Potioncat:
> > Not always. My cousin Rafe--his real name was Ralph but we called him Rafe--spelled his name Ralph.
 
> > I'm not sure if I ever met him, but I grew up hearing about "Rafe-his-real-name-is-Ralph-but-we-called-him-Rafe."

Carol:
> So in that case Rafe would be a nickname, not an alternate pronunciation, right? Otherwise, your family members would say, "His name is Rafe, spelled R-a-l-p-h," which is apparently the case with Ralph Fiennes, who is still "Ralf" in my head because of the spelling. (I suppose I'm as bad in that respect as people for whom Hermione is "Hermoine." *Those* people could benefit from a spell check!)

Geoff:
Don't forget that the UK has various oddly-pronounced names. One that 
springs to mind is the erstwhile leader of the Liberal Democrat party, 
Menzies Campbell which is pronounced "Mingies". It's a Scots name. 
And don't get me going on odd surnames!

Carol:
> BTW, I'm almost certain that I've read somewhere about a "Rafe" (spelled that way) in Richard III's time, but since I don't recall his last name, I can't look him up. (Speaking of spell checks, mine wants me to change "III's'" to "ii i's." What the--?

Geoff:
It's having a bad microchip day.
:-(
 
Carol, who thinks that Rafe and Ralph are both rather odd names and wouldn't have given either to her son if she had one.

Geoff:
Come, come, I've taught a number of Ralphs in my career (all "Ralfs" as it 
happens) and, as a literary expert Carol, you must remember Ralph, the 
hero of Golding's "Lord of the Flies"?

We also have a village near us named Brompton Ralph (standard pronunciation).




From md at exit-reality.com  Fri Jul 31 18:03:02 2009
From: md at exit-reality.com (Child Of Midian)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 14:03:02 -0400
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Silly question
In-Reply-To: <h4u305+5rg2@eGroups.com>
References: <h4tikv+loel@eGroups.com> <h4u305+5rg2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <008601ca1209$2574aed0$705e0c70$@com>



-----Original Message-----
From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
[mailto:HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Geoff Bannister


zanooda:
> Here is a sentence: "The graveyard is full of the names of ancient magical
families, and this accounts, no doubt, for the stories of hauntings that
have dogged the little church for many centuries".
> 
> My question may seem a little silly, but since there is an argument, I
have to ask: what exactly "have dogged" that church, stories or hauntings
:-)? Thank you!
.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

The first thing that strikes me is "the graveyard is full of" that should be
"the graveyard was full of" because "is" is present tense and the book is
past tense. 

The rest of the sentence works for me. It's not "stories" or "haunting" its
"stories OF hauntings" which is one thing. Or to rephrase, "it's those
stories about hauntings that have dogged the church." 

md





From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Fri Jul 31 19:53:19 2009
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 19:53:19 -0000
Subject: Silly question
In-Reply-To: <h4tikv+loel@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h4vi3f+pgk0@eGroups.com>

---  "zanooda2" <zanooda2 at ...> wrote:
>
> Here is a sentence: "The graveyard is full of the names of ancient magical families, and this accounts, no doubt, for the stories of hauntings that have dogged the little church for many centuries".
> 
> My question may seem a little silly, but since there is an argument, I have to ask: what exactly "have dogged" that church, stories or hauntings :-)? Thank you!
>

bboyminn:

Well, I think, grammatically, it is 'stories' that have dogged 
the church. Specifically, 'stories of hauntings'. 

So, 'stories' have dogged the church, but 'stories of hauntings'
tells you what kind of stories are being referenced. 

Dogged is, by definition, a reference to -
"Stubbornly persevering; tenacious"

So in short, stories of haunting have persevered about the 
little church. The stories of ghosts have been persistent over
time. 

But what is behind those stories, and why would they make 
comment like this.

When Harry is introduced to Nick, or perhaps it was after 
Sirius's death when Harry sought out Nick; Nick said that
only WIZARDS can come back as ghosts.

So, a graveyard full of dead wizards, would lead to a graveyard
full of wizard ghosts, and that would lead to "stories of 
hauntings that (would) have dogged the little church for many centuries".

Restated - 

"The graveyard is full of the names of ancient magical families, and this accounts, no doubt, for the stories of GHOSTS that have PERSISTED AROUND the little church for many centuries".

So, again, and sorry for being redundant; 'Stories' is the subject, 'have dogged' or 'have persisted' is the verb, and 'of hauntings' describes the nature of the stories.

But the hauntings are there because the wizards are there. 

Steve/bluewizard

 




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Fri Jul 31 20:03:16 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 20:03:16 -0000
Subject: Silly question
In-Reply-To: <008601ca1209$2574aed0$705e0c70$@com>
Message-ID: <h4vim4+fje5@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Child Of Midian" <md at ...> wrote:
 
zanooda:
> > Here is a sentence: "The graveyard is full of the names of ancient magical
> families, and this accounts, no doubt, for the stories of hauntings that
> have dogged the little church for many centuries".
> > 
> > My question may seem a little silly, but since there is an argument, I
> have to ask: what exactly "have dogged" that church, stories or hauntings
> :-)? Thank you!

md: 
> The first thing that strikes me is "the graveyard is full of" that should be
> "the graveyard was full of" because "is" is present tense and the book is
> past tense. 

Geoff:
Just in passing, I don't know why an attribution to me occurred in your 
heading (which I deleted not relevant to the post).

Moving on, if you read the quote in context, it makes perfect sense in 
the present tense (no pun intended):
"Most celebrated of these half-magical dwelling places is, perhaps, 
Godric's Hollow, the West Country village where the great wizard Godric 
Gryffindor was born and where Bowman Wright, wizarding smith, forged 
the first Golden Snitch. The graveyard is full of the names of ancient 
magical families and this accounts, no doubt, for the stories of hauntings 
that have dogged the little church for many centuries."
(DH "Godric's Hollow" p.261 UK edition)

Agreed, DH is in the past tense, as are most stories anyway, but in this 
instance the present tense is correct because the village and its fame still 
exist as do the graves with their names.

md: 
> The rest of the sentence works for me. It's not "stories" or "haunting" its
> "stories OF hauntings" which is one thing. Or to rephrase, "it's those
> stories about hauntings that have dogged the church." 
 
Geoff:
I agree entirely. As I said in an earlier reply to Zanooda, for me, there is 
no contest that what dogged the church was the stories.

On a different tack, "hauntings" has got to be a noun in this instance.





From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Fri Jul 31 20:13:23 2009
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 20:13:23 -0000
Subject: HBP movie related question (SPOILERS) - Teen Riddle
In-Reply-To: <h4qat0+b8al@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h4vj93+lbav@eGroups.com>

---  "zanooda2" <zanooda2 at ...> wrote:
>
> ---  "Carol" <justcarol67@> wrote:
> 
> > I can't comment on the creepiness of teenage Tom as I 
> > haven't seen the film yet
> 
> 
> zanooda:
> 
> I also found teenage Riddle very creepy, and I agree with Alla that he should to be more charming, with occasional creepiness showing when Sluggy is not looking :-). However, I believe that it was what the director wanted, so it's not the actor's fault. I think they wanted to make it clearer for those who didn't read the book that Riddle was a creep, so they could see future LV in him.
>

bboyminn:

I really liked the teen Riddle in the latest movie. I thought
he look very much like the younger Riddle might have looked
when he grew up.

His scene was very short, so he had a very limited time to
project the characteristics he needed to project. So, I can
be somewhat forgiving.

I also like Hero Finnes as young Riddle. I thought he had both 
a degree of evil creepiness combined with a sense of vulnerability. 
I really got the feeling of a wounded damaged boy from his also
very short performance. 

But again, and the point I wanted to make, is that I very 
much though young Riddle could have grown up to look like
teen Riddle. 

In the short screen time they had, I thought both actors did a
good job.

Steve/bboyminn








From md at exit-reality.com  Fri Jul 31 20:43:31 2009
From: md at exit-reality.com (Child Of Midian)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 16:43:31 -0400
Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Silly question
In-Reply-To: <h4vim4+fje5@eGroups.com>
References: <008601ca1209$2574aed0$705e0c70$@com> <h4vim4+fje5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <00bf01ca121f$90a614d0$b1f23e70$@com>



-----Original Message-----
From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com
[mailto:HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Geoff Bannister

Geoff:
Just in passing, I don't know why an attribution to me occurred in your 
heading (which I deleted not relevant to the post).

>>>>>>>>>>>I always leave the first line of the heading from the post I
replied to, so it's possible that I was replying to your post, but to
information in the original post you where replying to, not your actual
post.. that's all, sorry.

Moving on, if you read the quote in context, it makes perfect sense in 
the present tense (no pun intended):
"Most celebrated of these half-magical dwelling places is, perhaps, 
Godric's Hollow, the West Country village where the great wizard Godric 
Gryffindor was born and where Bowman Wright, wizarding smith, forged 
the first Golden Snitch. The graveyard is full of the names of ancient 
magical families and this accounts, no doubt, for the stories of hauntings 
that have dogged the little church for many centuries."
(DH "Godric's Hollow" p.261 UK edition)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Writing 101, you can't switch tense. 

Okay, 99.9% of the time you can't. If you do, it's got to be separate
chapters. No, she is not talking about a place that exist in the here and
now, because she's the narrator reflecting upon things that already
happened. The place in the here and now is not relevant to events that have
already transpired, and it's not the place the action takes place in. The
place the action takes place in is the there and then, not the here and now.
It's a testament to lazy editing that the tense-shift was left alone. I
really think they decided the books where selling so matter what Rowling
wrote they weren't going to mess with it if it wasn't glaring. I've caught
the tense shifts in other parts of her books and that along with the adverb
abuse are the most frustrating parts of her writing, though the tense shifts
are not constant.

But no, no editor would normally allow a writer to go from present-tense
descriptive to past-tense action occurring in the present-tense place.

md




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Fri Jul 31 21:21:45 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 21:21:45 -0000
Subject: Silly question
In-Reply-To: <00bf01ca121f$90a614d0$b1f23e70$@com>
Message-ID: <h4vn99+ppr@eGroups.com>

--- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Child Of Midian" <md at ...> wrote:

Geoff:
> Just in passing, I don't know why an attribution to me occurred in your 
> heading (which I deleted not relevant to the post).

md:
I always leave the first line of the heading from the post I
> replied to, so it's possible that I was replying to your post, but to
> information in the original post you where replying to, not your actual
> post.. that's all, sorry.

Geoff:
Yes but it appears that you must add the "On Behalf of..." bit because it 
appears in no one else's messages.....

Geoff:
> Moving on, if you read the quote in context, it makes perfect sense in 
> the present tense (no pun intended):
> "Most celebrated of these half-magical dwelling places i...

<Snip>

> (DH "Godric's Hollow" p.261 UK edition)

md: 
> Writing 101, you can't switch tense. 
> 
> Okay, 99.9% of the time you can't. If you do, it's got to be separate
> chapters. 

Geoff:
So why do characters in books written in the past tense always speak 
in the present tense?

Hermione is quoting from Bathilda Bagshot's book "A History of Magic":

"The villages of Tinworth in Cornwall, Upper Flagley  in Yorkshire and 
Ottery St. Catchpole on the south coast of England were notable homes 
to knots of wizarding families, who who lived alongside tolerant and 
sometimes Confunded Muggles. Most celebrated of these... is Godric's 
Hollow...""
(DH "Godric's Hollow" p.261 UK edition)

The first-named villages may no longer be notable; some may not still
exist although we know of two of them including Otetry St.Catchpole 
which seems to be a bit of a backwater. However, Godric's Hollow still 
exists and retains its fame to the present day because of its special 
history and "is" therefore still the most celebrated. Its graveyard still 
exists and therefore "is" still full of names.

Frankly, I do not accept that writing has to conform to the rigid 
structures of your Writing 101 which I believe is a Creative Writing 
course? I don't think Shakespeare attended them?

I wonder what Carol, with her background in literature work feels 
about this?





From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Fri Jul 31 22:05:39 2009
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 22:05:39 -0000
Subject: Silly question
In-Reply-To: <h4vn99+ppr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <h4vprj+r6kb@eGroups.com>

> Geoff:
 
> Frankly, I do not accept that writing has to conform to the rigid 
> structures of your Writing 101 which I believe is a Creative Writing 
> course? I don't think Shakespeare attended them?
> 
> I wonder what Carol, with her background in literature work feels 
> about this?
>

Magpie:
Coming from my own background in literature :-) this isn't a writing 101 case anyway. It just sounds a bit wonky when taken out of context. It's more just a sentence talking about some things in the present and some in the past. For instance, there's nothing wrong with: "Matilda's grandmother was a great beauty in her time, but her mother is known more for her arm-wrestling skill than her looks."

-m (who just finished editing a manuscript whose authors had a bad habit of switching tense mid-sentence in the bad way)




From d2dmiles at yahoo.de  Fri Jul 31 22:11:22 2009
From: d2dmiles at yahoo.de (Miles)
Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2009 00:11:22 +0200
Subject: Silly question
References: <h4vn99+ppr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <07E2685E00B441B7B15DA760309C3CCB@miles>

Geoff Bannister wrote:
>> Moving on, if you read the quote in context, it makes perfect sense
>> in the present tense (no pun intended):
>> "Most celebrated of these half-magical dwelling places i...
>
> <Snip>
>
>> (DH "Godric's Hollow" p.261 UK edition)
>
> md:
>> Writing 101, you can't switch tense.
>>
>> Okay, 99.9% of the time you can't. If you do, it's got to be separate
>> chapters.
>
> Geoff:
> So why do characters in books written in the past tense always speak
> in the present tense?
>
> Hermione is quoting from Bathilda Bagshot's book "A History of Magic":

Miles:
I agree with Geoff. While it is true that an author should not switch 
between tenses (although for artistic reasons they might break this rule, as 
an author is allowed to break nearly every rule if it has a purpose), in 
this case there is no breaking of the rule.
While The Narrator always uses past tense, the author of the book on 
Bathilda does not. So it's another voice, another person "talking", 
therefore switching between past and present is absolutely ok with any rules 
for writing.

Miles, who by the way likes authors who play with language rules rather then 
obeying them