Redemption of Anakin and other redemption stories (moved from Main)

[sistermagpie]

> Alla:
> 
> I am just curious what is your definition of greater redemption? I mean, I see Snape as making up for more than just killing Lily, but for being DE in general. I mean, it is not like he is trying to atone for his part in getting Lily killed while trying to continue DE activities on the other fronts? Or maybe I am totally misunderstanding you. I was just trying to say that to me his redemption did not work because I saw him and Harry as main conflict in his life, and to me he was not redeemed from that like at all (obviously if one thinks Snape did not need to be redeemed from that, it does not apply).

Magpie:
That's part of it for me too. I meant that even though he'd turned away from the DEs (that totally didn't work out and they killed Lily) he was still picking on kids in school and being generally unpleasant and not getting over his personal grudges. He creates the conflict with Harry and never gets over that either, it seems. Not that this keeps him from protecting Harry as part of his penance for Lily, of course.

Alla:
> And that in a way makes me agreeing with you, I guess. It is because we do not see Snape doing nothing bad as DE, his redemption feels to you as only making up for his part in Lily's death, yes? Oh boy, I think I am doing circular reasoning here. I guess I am know even more curious what is your definition of redeemed character. Pretty please?

Magpie:
I think Snape redeemed himself for what we know about his bad work as a DE (telling the prophecy) in that he worked for the good side. But a redeemed character in general I think tends to have a bigger change in their overall outline. Like it's all about realizing how they were wrong in more than just that way. Ebenezer Scrooge, for instance, doesn't just give Bob Cratchitt a raise and get him a goose for Christmas because he doesn't want Tiny Tim to die, he sees how his whole previous outlook was wrong. 
 
 Alla:
> 
> Well, seems that we both love Zuco's redemption. Would it be fair to say then that you see redemption as character while remaining his core, at the same time changing in how he looks at the world, and people around him? I mean, I agree that Zuco changes significantly, becomes more open more, I don't know, joyful, understands what he really wants in life, etc and at the same time remains loyal as he always was and wanting to lead his nation, etc.

Magpie:
Yup, totally1

Alla: 
> But is it the only type of redemption that works for you? I mean, Zuco is a teenager after all, yes he is a teenager in the show where kids have adults responsibilities, but what I am trying to say is that it must at least a little easier for him to realize that his father is a murderous maniac and pursue his own needs in the world?
> 
> It must be much harder to change completely for the adult like Snape?

Magpie:
Not necessarily--Scrooge is older than Snape (and Snape's kind of stuck in his teenaged thinking anyway). But it's not even really that Snape's story didn't work for me. I just don't really think of him as a character that's a good example of a redeemed character. I guess I do feel like the person just needs to have a change of heart big enough that it's uplifting to read about. Snape seemed to definitely realize he was wrong for passing on the prophecy and therefore for joining Voldemort, but I don't know exactly he viewed it all. It just seemed very laser-focused on Lily. Like, if he'd really looked at himself and how he got to that point I'm not sure he'd have been so immediately belligerant to Harry. He continued the same cycle because he hadn't broken out of it, which is why I don't really think of him as being about redemption. I'd think penance rather than redemption. (Even though technically redemption is regret--he pays his debt with the job he does for Dumbledore.)

-m