Redemption of Anakin and other redemption stories (moved from Main)

[Steve]

---  "dumbledore11214" <dumbledore11214 at ...> wrote:
>
> Montavilla47:
> <SNIP>
> ...
> 
> You know, I do feel sympathy for your POV. I'm the
> same way with Darth Vader. The man blew up Naboo, for
> goodness sake.
> 
> When he told Luke that he was his father, that seemed
> important to me because it affected Luke--but it didn't
> change my opinion of Vader one little bit. And when
> Luke went to go save him, I just shook my head. Could
> not have cared less that Anakin got redeemed.
> 
> Twenty years later, I went to see the new SW films--
> and got all the backstory on Anakin/Vader. Still don't
> care about him.
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> This was really an example in Snape's discussion for those who do not go on Main, but this got me thinking about redemption stories in literature and film and what works and does not work for me. And I decided that I would love to hear what others think.
> 
> 
> Redemption of Anakin actually worked amazingly well for me and in such short period of time. It worked for me, because to me the story of his relationship with Luke was driving the series, therefore Anakin's redemption from what he did on the personal level totally worked for me.
> 
> Redemption of Snape did not work for me because as I mentioned on Main to me Snape was not redeemed at all from what I felt was one of two his main misgivings (how he treated kids), but now when I think about Anakin, I actually realized another reason why his redemption from being a DE did not work for me.
> 
> ...

bboyminn:

I think it depends on what you mean by redemption. If you mean
that a character totally turns around, the sinner becomes saint,
then no I don't see that in either case.

But I do think there is redemption in the sense that the 
inhuman become human. We can see Darth and Snape has inhuman
monsters without redeeming qualities, though more so with
Darth. He kill unsparingly and killed million, perhaps billions
of innocent people. How can we understand that?

I think that last question is the key to the inhuman becoming
human. Eventually we see Darth's backstory and come to 
understand how and why he chose the path he did.

The same is true of Snape, while we still don't like him, we
see a degree of humanity in him. We see what motivated him,
we can understand why he did the things he did.

And in seeing that humanity and understanding the characters
motivation, I think we see redemption of a sort. 

But understanding and even in cases where we can forgive, that
doesn't mean we completely blow off the actions of the 
character. Even if we understand and forgive, even if we see
the underlying humanity and the driving motivations, they must
still stand responsible for their actions.

We don't legally forgive Darth simply because we can feel some
sympathy for his circumstances. 

We don't fully forgive Snape, even though we can now understand
what was driving him, the guilt, the shame, the originally
misguided values, etc.... 

So, I think in the metaphorical sense, seeing the transition from
seeming inhuman to human is the transition of redemption in the
story.

But in none of the examples, does this free a person of the
responsibilities for their action. No one, in this sense of
redemption goes from guilty to innocent in the metaphorical,
social, or legal sense. 

In the case of Harry using Unforgivables, which has also been
hotly discussed, Harry doesn't make the transition for guilty
to innocent. He is guilty. He is wrong. But his action in
context are also understandable and can be overlooked along
side the much greater things he accomplished. 

That 'much greater things' exclusion doesn't always hold. A 
serial murder could be very benevolent and generous, but we
still hold him accountable. So, JUST BECAUSE you do 'greater
things' is not a free pass. But in Harry case, I think it is,
most in the wizard world would tell him he was wrong, but also
that they understand the circumstances and are willing to 
overlook it even as they condemn it. 

So, in the broad sense, I think this is what we are looking for,
to understand and, in the most general sense, forgive the bad guy,
we must see the man in the monster, we must see the human in 
the apparent inhuman. 

I think they were successful in this limited sense of 
redemption in both Snape and Darth's case.

Sinner to Saint = No.
Inhuman to human = I say, Yes. 

Steve/bboyminn