Redemption of Anakin and other redemption stories (moved from Main)

[Carol]

Magpie wrote:
> <snip> He's not in the final group around Harry (where Lily is) because he died hating on most of them.

Carol responds:
I don't think that's the reason he isn't there. (Neither is Dumbledore, or poor Tonks.) It's because Harry wanted the people he loved best to be with him at the end to inspire him and give him courage. Lupin, of course, doesn't fully qualify, but he's one of the Marauders and perhaps inseparable in Harry's mind from them. Also, he feels guilty for his harsh words to Lupin (IMO, well deserved) and seems to want the chance to make up with him. Snape would have been out of place in that group. Harry is grateful to him later and publicly vindicates him, but that doesn't mean he'd consider Snape to be inspiring company as he walks to his death. 

Magpie:
> <snip>
> I know that redemption doesn't mean perfect and Snape does atone for the sin he himself thought was unforgivable--that of getting Lily killed. I just tend to think of redemption stories as a lot more than Snape.

Carol responds:
Redemption stories vary just as any type of story does. And, of course, interpretations vary. IMO only, in a story with the Christian themes of mercy and forgiveness and atonement, Snape qualifies as redeemed. If his major sins are forgiven, why wouldn't the minor ones be forgiven as well? Surely, saving Harry's life and protecting him outweighs sarcasm and unfairness. And, surely, if there's a God in the HP universe, as the Christian themes suggest, God will forgive Snape as Harry does. (Otherwise Harry, who in JKR's words is not a saint, comes off as better than God, which I'm sure was not JKR's intention.)

Anyway, to me, three things matter with regard to redemption: atonement, forgiveness, and the afterlife. We know that Snape's remorse drives him to atone for his major sins while retaining the human flaws that make him Snape; we know that Harry forgives him and vindicates him, setting aside the petty misunderstandings that blinded him to Snape's real motivation and actions (and the love and courage that Harry values); and we see that in the afterlife, other imperfect characters (MPP and Dumbledore and, yes, Lily, who is less perfect than Snape thinks), are happy--for, we must presume, all eternity. I see no reason why Snape, after all that he did and suffered, would not be freed of his bitterness and resentment and forgiven by the Wormless Marauders and Lily, or why he, in turn, would not forgive them. Death, after all, is not the end in the HP books.

Clearly, you see things differently and are focusing only on life. Agree to disagree.
> 
> Carol:
> > Petty sarcasm and point-docking and continued resentment of the boys who humiliated him when he was also a boy are human traits, probably unavoidable in a man as unloved as Snape was.
> 
> Magpie:
> And a lot of Snape's being unloved was due to his pettiness and continued resentment. It's human, of course. Everybody in the book is human.
> 
Carol:
Exactly (although Voldemort has lost almost all his humanness). Snape, OTOH, still retains his humanness and therefore his (somewhat tarnished but intact) immortal soul. He's not going to spend eternity as a fiendish child under a bench. Pettiness and resentment are nothing to Voldemort's multitude of sins. And even Harry has his human failings. In the end, to Harry, who names his son Albus Severus, the human failings of both Dumbledore and Snape fade to nothing. It's their strengths and their contribution to the fall of Voldemort that matter.

> Carol:> 
> > Obviously, we're never going to agree here, but I think that Harry has it right.
> 
> Magpie:
> That Snape was brave? Sure. I still think it's bizarre of him to name his child after Snape who hated him, but that's his business. Knowing Harry I tend to imagine that he's long since replaced the Snape he knew with a more palatable version by the time he has kids. But he certainly was brave.

Carol:
I meant that Harry has it right to set aside the pettiness and point docking, which in the long run harmed only Snape himself by feeding his vindictiveness, and see the good in him--not just the courage but the ability to love and the lives he saved. It's not, IMO, a matter of replacing the Snape he knew with "a more palatable version." It's accepting him, faults and all, as he does Dumbledore, and forgiving him. He sees past the obvious flaws that caused him to misjudge Snape. His perception is cleansed (no glasses at King's Cross; he can see clearly now). I don't know whether Harry realizes now that he allowed his own preconceptions and prejudices--as well as Snape's behavior--to distort his view of Snape, just as Snape allowed Harry's resemblance to James to distort his perception of Harry. I don't know whether he realizes that his own behavior--rule-breaking, talking back to Snape, lying about the Potions book, etc.--reinforced Snape's perception of him. Harry isn't a deep thinker and he isn't particularly introspective. But he does see, I think, that some things are more important than others and that saving the life and protecting a person you dislike--which he surely knows must be extremely difficult--outweighs sarcasm and point-docking and continued hatred of Harry's father (for reasons that Harry now understands all too well).

It's not just Snape's courage. That alone would not be sufficient for Harry to name his son Albus Severus. He's (IMO) acknowledging Snape's contribution, honoring him for the role he played in defeating Voldemort, which would not have been possible had he not loved Harry's mother. It's understanding and forgiveness and vindication and acknowledging heroism. And, just possibly, it's one small step toward understanding between Slytherin and Gryffindor. Just my opinion.

Carol, who wonders about the afterlife of Wizards who don't show remorse before death or those like Grindelwald who show it only when it's too late for atonement


Judge not that ye be not judged. Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.