Harry Potter and God

[Carol]

Carol eralier:
> Dumbledore chooses to die by the hand of a trusted associate, a coup de grace and/or euthanasia rather than be murdered (and just possibly pass the power of the Elder Wand to the DE who killed him). Whether he could have chosen to die from the combination or the curse and the potion, allowing weakness to overcome him, I don't know. He seems not to have wanted that to happen ("Severus, please!), perhaps either way, ring or potion, he'd have been killed by Voldemort and perhaps that would make Voldemort the master of the Elder Wand, or a valid contender in the wand's view, even though Draco has Disarmed DD. (Either that or he's desperately making sure that Snape survives to follow through with his--DD's--plans, which can't happen if Snape falls dead from the broken UV. 
> 
md:
> The Elder Wand passed to the person who disarmed him, Draco, not his killer. By choosing to die that night he saved Draco from either being a murderer or from getting killed and he cemented Snape's position with Voldy making his death an act of sacrifice for the good of others.

Carol responds:
First, Dumbledore didn't choose to die that night. He was going to die, regardless. What he chose was to go through with the plan and have Snape kill him even though he had the other options that I mentioned. And, yes, of course, that plan saved Draco's soul, but so would the other options. And, yes, of course, that plan cemented Snape's position, but he could have gone with the Death Eaters and gotten them and Draco out of Hogwarts even if, say, Amycus Carrow had killed Dumbledore. (Granted, of course, Dumbledore specifically did not want Fenrir Greyback to kill him and Snape's doing so prevented that. And, of course, there's the Unbreakable Vow, which you don't mention. If Snape allowed himself to drop dead by refusing to "do the deed" when Draco didn't, that part of the plan would also go out the window.) So, yes, of course, I understand all that. But I'm asking whether there's more to Dumbledore's desperate plea for Snape to kill him than Snape himself knew even though the plan had already gone wrong.

And second, you say that the Elder wand passed to Draco, who Disarmed Dumbledore, and not to his killer, which, of course, is true as far as it goes. But what I'm concerned with here is Dumbledore's thought process and what might have happened even after Draco's Expelliarmus if someone other than Snape had killed DD. Dumbledore knew, of course, that the wand would not pass to Snape regardless of whether Draco had first Disarmed him because Snape was acting on his orders. The idea was to rob the wand of all its powers when Snape killed him, which did not happen because Draco Disarmed him first. Yet DD still wants Snape and no one else to kill him even though that part of the plan has failed.

Did Dumbledore *know* that the mastery of the wand would pass to Draco, who merely Disarmed him, rather than to his killer (other than Snape)? I'm not sure that he did. Did he know how easily that mastery could be taken away from a weak Wizard like Draco (simply by snatching his own wand from his hand)? Did he fear that it might be taken away more forcefully if someone else (other than Snape) killed Dumbledore? More on that in a moment.

What I'm saying is that Dumbledore's *primary* reason for having Snape kill him, the one he concealed from Snape and the whole reason he concocted the plan in the first place, seems to have no longer existed once Draco Disarmed him. ("Well, Draco's the master of the wand now. So much for that. Might as well just drop dead now since I no longer need Severus to kill me or save him the pain of killing me and let Amycus do it.") But Dumbledore still makes sure, with a bit of astute psychological manipulation, that Draco not only doesn't kill him but knows that he's not a killer even though Draco is now at least the temporary master of the Elder Wand, and he still chooses to have Snape and no one else perform the Avada Kedavra even though that act will no longer rob the Elder Wand of its power. 

Obviously, the reasons that you give are important. For the most part, they're the same ones that Dumbledore gave Snape or that Snape himself understood as Dumbledore's motivation--to save Draco's soul and prevent him from being killed (which was also Snape's motivation for taking the Unbreakable Vow once he'd already promised Dumbledore to "do the deed") and to ensure that Snape became Voldemort's right-hand man so that he could become headmaster and protect the students at Hogwarts (and continue to aid Portrait!Dumbledore in helping Harry destroy Voldemort). Dumbledore had also told Snape (or strongly implied) that if he saved a dying old man from a terrible death at the hands of Death Eaters or the teeth of Greyback, his own soul would be safe. The act would not, in other words, be murder. Snape, of course, also knew that if he failed to do as Dumbledore begged him to do, he would almost certainly die from breaking the Unbreakable Vow and Dumbledore's plans would fall apart. Harry would never know about the soul bit in his scar and Voldemort would win. So *Snape's* motivation is clear.

But, though the reasons that Dumbledore gave Snape are all valid (and highly effective in persuading Snape to do what he really doesn't want to do), DD had, as you know, another motivation that he concealed from Snape, and that motivation literally went out the window when Draco Disarmed him. It was now clear (to DD) that the Elder Wand would not lose its power when Snape killed him. That being the case, Dumbledore had the choice of letting Snape off the hook. Why not let another Death Eater kill him or just let the potion and the ring curse kill him rather than making Snape look like a murderer in front of Harry, who would make sure that the whole WW heard the story? For one thing, as you say, the parts of the plan that he'd told Snape still applied. It was still important for Snape himself to kill him for the reasons that Snape himself knew. In fact, for Snape himself, nothing has changed. It's only Dumbledore who knows about the flaw in the plan.

But was there more to Dumbledore's desperation ("Severus, please!") than the plans involving Snape, important though they were? I think that Dumbledore *may* have feared that the Elder Wand could choose to go to a stronger, more evil Wizard than Draco, a more suitable master, if that Wizard murdered Dumbledore rather than having the loyal Snape kill him. And why not let the combined ring curse and poison kill him? He was going to die, anyway, and dying that way would let Snape off the hook. The third provision of the Unbreakable Vow would no longer apply--Snape would only need to protect and watch over Draco until the mission was safely accomplished--that is, until he got off the Hogwarts grounds. Snape could still masquerade as a loyal Death Eater, though perhaps not as Voldemort's right-hand man, if another DE killed Dumbledore or if the combined curse and potion killed him. 

I agree that Snape's mission was very important and probably crucial, but (despite what he told Snape), it was never Dumbledore's main motivation for putting Snape in the terrible position of having to kill him. That primary motivation was the Elder Wand. So I'm trying to account for Dumbledore's desperate plea to Snape to kill him and for his failing to choose those other options after the Elder Wand plan falls apart. Why not just die from the poison or let one of the Carrows kill him since they didn't seem inclined to torture him first? Why insist that Snape go through with the plan to kill him if doing so would not destroy the power of the Elder Wand?

I think there was more to it than he had told Snape. Important as those reasons were (and, of course, they were the only reasons that Snape knew of--he didn't know about the Elder Wand or the flaw in the plan), I can't help thinking that there was something more, a fear on Dumbledore's part that the wand wouldn't recognize Draco as its master if a stronger Wizard killed Dumbledore. And that would include Voldemort, who made the potion and placed the curse on the ring, if Dumbledore died from those causes.

I realize that Draco's being the master of the wand seems simple and straightforward, but perhaps that's only because Dumbledore insisted that Snape go through with the original plan. Maybe the wand itself would have chosen someone stronger than Draco if that person had succeeded in killing Dumbledore--Snape again being the exception because he was acting on Dumbledore's orders for humanitarian reasons. Ollivander says that a wand chooses its master and that it's not always a simple choice. Dumbledore, who set up his whole complex plan primarily because of the Elder Wand, would have known that. And once the plan went wrong, I think he wanted to prevent collateral damage. He wanted to be sure that it didn't choose one of the DEs on the tower or Voldemort himself. And having Snape kill him ensured that it would not--at least until someone Disarmed, killed, or overcame Draco (which, again, was a reason for making sure that Snape carried out the original plan).

Or as you say, his sole reason for continuing with the original plan, the sole reason for the desperation in his voice, may simply be the importance of Snape's role. Part of DD's plan failed, but the rest was still intact, and certainly he wanted it carried out. I'm just not sure that the mastery of the Elder Wand wasn't still involved in some way.

Carol, by no means denying that Snape's role was crucial but still thinking that Dumbledore may have had other fears