From HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com Sat Feb 4 18:56:56 2012 From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com (HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com) Date: 4 Feb 2012 18:56:56 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 2/5/2012, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1328381816.11.3179.m1@yahoogroups.com> Reminder from: HPFGU-OTChatter Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/cal Weekly Chat Sunday February 5, 2012 1:00 pm - 2:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) Notes: Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2012 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com Fri Feb 10 05:42:22 2012 From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com (HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com) Date: 10 Feb 2012 05:42:22 -0000 Subject: Happy Birthday, Geoff!, 2/10/2012, 12:00 am Message-ID: <1328852542.8.63178.m4@yahoogroups.com> Reminder from: HPFGU-OTChatter Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/cal Happy Birthday, Geoff! Friday February 10, 2012 All Day (This event repeats every year.) Notes: *looks around to see if anyone notices her dusting off the decorations and adds a few new balloons to freshen things up* Today's birthday honouree is Geoff. Birthday owls can be sent care of this list or directly to Geoff at: gbannister123 at btinternet.com *briefly exits and returns dragging tables laden with sandwiches, eclairs and a multitude of drinks with smoke rising from them* Feel free to turn up the music and take a turn on the dance floor! Wishing you good health, good friends and good times. Happy Birthday, Geoff! Rylly the Birthday Elf All Rights Reserved Copyright 2012 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From coverton1982 at hotmail.com Fri Feb 10 08:37:38 2012 From: coverton1982 at hotmail.com (Corey Overton) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2012 08:37:38 -0000 Subject: Hi to all the group Message-ID: Hi to everyone on HPOTChatter. I hope JK Rowling writes another book. I mean the 7th book ended but wish she would have put more in the epilogue. Well just thought I'd drop in and say hi. Corey From sdlively at comcast.net Sat Feb 11 15:09:38 2012 From: sdlively at comcast.net (Stephanie) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2012 15:09:38 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter Film Wizardry BOok Message-ID: Anyone else have this one and think this would be a gread book to collect the autographs in? Not that I could poss afford to send it thou the mail being as heavy as it is. From HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com Sat Feb 11 18:56:59 2012 From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com (HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com) Date: 11 Feb 2012 18:56:59 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 2/12/2012, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1328986619.12.36992.m10@yahoogroups.com> Reminder from: HPFGU-OTChatter Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/cal Weekly Chat Sunday February 12, 2012 1:00 pm - 2:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) Notes: Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2012 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 13 01:57:12 2012 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2012 01:57:12 -0000 Subject: Writers and other artists of 20 century which in your opinion will be remembered Message-ID: Hey guys, this is sort of "help me remember" post :). I was having a discussion with a good friend of mine in real life and real time today and he made an argument that 20 century have not produced many (if at all) writers, composers, painters which are destined to be remember forever. And sadly I was not able to raise many counter arguments to that, so maybe you can help me. I mean, of course I know quite a few writers in my culture who worked in 20 century and who I hope will be remembered for a long time - in my culture that is. But I am not arrogant enough to assume that they will transcend the barriers of my culture, you know? I feel that to understand them, you need to be of my culture. Like if I bring one name, I do not think anybody who is not studying Russian literature would know it. I think Tolstoy and Dostoevski are well known, but thats about it. And the same holds true for many american writers of 20 century or writers of any country. "To kill a Mocking bird" is considered a great classic of 20 century for example, by a lot of americans, right? But without any doubt if I were to ask a lot of my friends and acquaintances , they would say huh, what is this book. And please take my word for it, they are very well read. So I guess, what I am asking is for you to give me a few names from any area of art, not just writers in the 20 century who are known to everybody, or at least to a lot of people from different countries, and cultures. I am not even saying that person has to read their works, just to know who they are. Like when myself and my friend were talking, we definitely agreed that 19 century was a golden age in so many areas, including literature, music, paintings, etc. He was like, if you say the name Bethoven to anybody, even not very educated person is highly unlikely to suggest that he was somebody else other than famous composer. He was like, who do you think could be another Bethoven, or Verdi, or Puccini of 20 century in music? Who do you think would be another Shakespeare of 20 century? Okay, we agreed that invoking Shakespeare is not very fair since there is unlikely to be another Shakespeare ever, but you get the gist :) At least give me another Jane Austen maybe? :) He grudgingly agree with me that Tolkien is likely to live forever, but he was not very sure. And you know, what the funny part is since our group is Harry Potter group? This gentleman has no interest in reading Harry Potter, he always teased me about my interest in it, but JKR was the only writer he agreed without any hesitation that would be remembered for a very long time lol. I am not arguing with him about that of course, since I think so too, but I was sad, that I could not come up with any other names which I hope 20 century will be remembered by. And you know what else my friend said? I think 20 century will not be remembered because many brilliant artists worked at that time, he thinks people will remember Hittler, Lenin, and probably Stalin and the horrors they caused and at least about this part I totally agree. Help me, guys please :) Thanks in advance. Alla From shaun.hately at bigpond.com Mon Feb 13 02:14:34 2012 From: shaun.hately at bigpond.com (Shaun Hately) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2012 13:14:34 +1100 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Writers and other artists of 20 century which in your opinion will be remembered In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F38720A.4020402@bigpond.com> On 13/02/2012 12:57 PM, dumbledore11214 wrote: > So I guess, what I am asking is for you to give me a few names from any > area of art, not just writers in the 20 century who are known to > everybody, or at least to a lot of people from different countries, and > cultures. I am not even saying that person has to read their works, just > to know who they are. Like when myself and my friend were talking, we > definitely agreed that 19 century was a golden age in so many areas, > including literature, music, paintings, etc. He was like, if you say the > name Bethoven to anybody, even not very educated person is highly > unlikely to suggest that he was somebody else other than famous composer. Something to consider. In the 20th Century, and the 21st Century continues the trend even more so, mass communication of a type that was unprecedented in the past occurred. Part of the reason why somebody might not stand out as much as they did in the past, is because there were so many more authors and composers and musicians, etc, than there were in previous centuries. Jane Austen was writing in an England where only a couple of hundred novels were published each year. It was a lot easier for somebody to be noticed in that type of situation. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 13 03:20:20 2012 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2012 03:20:20 -0000 Subject: Writers and other artists of 20 century which in your opinion will be remembered In-Reply-To: <4F38720A.4020402@bigpond.com> Message-ID: .> On 13/02/2012 12:57 PM, dumbledore11214 wrote: > > > So I guess, what I am asking is for you to give me a few names from any > > area of art, not just writers in the 20 century who are known to > > everybody, or at least to a lot of people from different countries, and > > cultures. I am not even saying that person has to read their works, just > > to know who they are. Like when myself and my friend were talking, we > > definitely agreed that 19 century was a golden age in so many areas, > > including literature, music, paintings, etc. He was like, if you say the > > name Bethoven to anybody, even not very educated person is highly > > unlikely to suggest that he was somebody else other than famous composer. Shawn: > Something to consider. In the 20th Century, and the 21st Century > continues the trend even more so, mass communication of a type that was > unprecedented in the past occurred. Part of the reason why somebody > might not stand out as much as they did in the past, is because there > were so many more authors and composers and musicians, etc, than there > were in previous centuries. Jane Austen was writing in an England where > only a couple of hundred novels were published each year. It was a lot > easier for somebody to be noticed in that type of situation. > Alla: Thats a good point, on the other hand, the explosion of mass communication happened more in the second half of 20 century, right? I am having trouble coming up with many names of the first half too, and if there are so many of them, shouldnt we be able to name at least some, shouldnt we be able to say this one and this one and this one AND this one are potential figures to live in ages, instead of saying huh, and start counting on fingers of my two hands, barely. Okay, I cannot consider myself very well educated in the music area, so that may definitely stop me from naming genuis composers of 20 century, but I can say without hesitation that I am extremely well read in Russian literature, but also quite well read in general. And I cannot name that many writers either. Thomas Mann? Maybe. Irvin Shaw? I suppose. Tolkien is actually the only one I was able to name with no hesitation. I guess I would count Picasso and Salvador Dali as memorable painters, but besides them? Again, not sure. From n2fgc at arrl.net Mon Feb 13 03:36:07 2012 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force)) Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2012 22:36:07 -0500 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Writers and other artists of 20 century which in your opinion will be remembered In-Reply-To: <4F38720A.4020402@bigpond.com> References: <4F38720A.4020402@bigpond.com> Message-ID: <37D1A4D87F234BE986FBAE43505A58E9@Dobby> Hi all, I would think that, from the music field at least, Gershwin, Copland and a few others will long be remembered and played. Of course, JKR, Tolkien, and C. S. Lewis would be my votes in the Fiction genre. And even if the names don't mean something, I'm sure that if someone says "Hobbit," "Narnia," or "Harry Potter," the puzzle would fit together immediately. Smile, Lee Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me, | n2fgc at arrl.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at optonline.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From shaun.hately at bigpond.com Mon Feb 13 03:51:45 2012 From: shaun.hately at bigpond.com (Shaun Hately) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2012 14:51:45 +1100 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Writers and other artists of 20 century which in your opinion will be remembered In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F3888D1.50405@bigpond.com> On 13/02/2012 2:20 PM, dumbledore11214 wrote: > > > Alla: > > Thats a good point, on the other hand, the explosion of mass > communication happened more in the second half of 20 century, right? I > am having trouble coming up with many names of the first half too, and > if there are so many of them, shouldnt we be able to name at least some, > shouldnt we be able to say this one and this one and this one AND this > one are potential figures to live in ages, instead of saying huh, and > start counting on fingers of my two hands, barely. With books it started in the 1850s or so as literacy became commonplace among all sections of society and cheap prebound books started to be produced en masse (the 'penny dreadfuls' of the Victorian era) and mass circulation magazines began to become common as well. > Okay, I cannot consider myself very well educated in the music area, so > that may definitely stop me from naming genuis composers of 20 century, > but I can say without hesitation that I am extremely well read in > Russian literature, but also quite well read in general. And I cannot > name that many writers either. Thomas Mann? Maybe. Irvin Shaw? I > suppose. Tolkien is actually the only one I was able to name with no > hesitation. Another factor is a lot of the time, we only decide somebody was a great well after they've stopped writing. Jane Austen, for example, died in 1817 and while her books were somewhat successful, it wasn't until the 1870s that she suddenly became acclaimed as something truly special when her nephew wrote a biography of her, and she really exploded in 1883 when the first cheap - mass produced and marketed - editions of her books were released. But in terms of 20th Century English language authors who I think will endure - George Orwell. Graham Greene. C.S. Forester. Terry Pratchett. Rudyard Kipling. Arthur C. Clarke. John Buchan. James Joyce. C.S. Lewis. Aldous Huxley. P.G. Wodehouse. Noel Coward. JRR Tolkien. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 13 04:34:38 2012 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2012 04:34:38 -0000 Subject: Writers and other artists of 20 century which in your opinion will be remembered In-Reply-To: <4F3888D1.50405@bigpond.com> Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, Shaun Hately wrote: .> But in terms of 20th Century English language authors who I think will > endure - George Orwell. Graham Greene. C.S. Forester. Terry Pratchett. > Rudyard Kipling. Arthur C. Clarke. John Buchan. James Joyce. C.S. Lewis. > Aldous Huxley. P.G. Wodehouse. Noel Coward. JRR Tolkien. > Alla: Yes, I think Orwell is definitely a likely candidate, but for me he is an author of one haunting book (I have not read anything else by him), did you find his other works just as good? Animal farm is also his, right? I wondered about C.S.Lewis of course when I thought of Tolkien, but I may have said it in the past - Lewis' books popularity (as works of art) is something I just do not really understand, to me his books are just very "in your face" retellings of Christianity for kids and some of them, especially last one got so preachy that I wanted to throw the book against the wall, but of course he is quite popular and it is possible that his popularity will stand. I mean, of course Tolkien is somebody who was deeply influenced by Christianity in his writings, but for me Tolkien wrote something very universal and what people of any faith (or atheists) can love. Lewis' writings just make me angry. I do love Arthur Clarke and Rudyard Kipling, I am just wondering if they will stand up a test of time, for me they are absolutely terrific writers, I just wonder if they are good enough to be remember for a very long time. I am curious about James Joyce, VERY curious in fact. I was very very proud of myself when I finished Ulisses in English, but boy oh boy I have not had an urge to pick up any other work of his. Yes, he used original writing technique in his book, yes, he made the reading of said book extremely long affair (and of course it is understandable that I will struggle, but I know several well read English speakers who felt the same way), but would the ordinary person still know him? I would bet that he would fall in obscurity and pretty fast, but of course I can be wrong, since I am aware that in many literary circles Ulisses was considered a work of genuius. I have not read anything by Huxley, Forrester or Buchan or Noel Coward. Anything by this writers that you would recommend in particularly? I always try to fill in as many "cultural gaps" as I possibly can :) I tried Pratchett, I tried him a lot (two or three books) and I know how many people love him, but I guess his humor just does not work for me. Shawn, thank you, I am so glad to have a chance to ramble about writers and books :) From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 13 04:36:46 2012 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2012 04:36:46 -0000 Subject: Writers and other artists of 20 century which in your opinion will be remembered In-Reply-To: <37D1A4D87F234BE986FBAE43505A58E9@Dobby> Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Lee Storm \(God Is The Healing Force\)" wrote: > > Hi all, > > I would think that, from the music field at least, Gershwin, Copland and a > few others will long be remembered and played. Of course, JKR, Tolkien, and > C. S. Lewis would be my votes in the Fiction genre. And even if the names > don't mean something, I'm sure that if someone says "Hobbit," "Narnia," or > "Harry Potter," the puzzle would fit together immediately. Alla: Hi Lee, oh yes Gershwin is probably a good candidate. I wish I could travel in the time machine and be a fly on the wall on the literature or music lessons in school in 25 or 26 century to hear whom they still consider classics. From shaun.hately at bigpond.com Mon Feb 13 04:57:21 2012 From: shaun.hately at bigpond.com (Shaun Hately) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2012 15:57:21 +1100 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Re: Writers and other artists of 20 century which in your opinion will be remembered In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F389831.5070407@bigpond.com> On 13/02/2012 3:34 PM, dumbledore11214 wrote: > > > --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com > , Shaun Hately > wrote: > > .> But in terms of 20th Century English language authors who I think will > > endure - George Orwell. Graham Greene. C.S. Forester. Terry Pratchett. > > Rudyard Kipling. Arthur C. Clarke. John Buchan. James Joyce. C.S. Lewis. > > Aldous Huxley. P.G. Wodehouse. Noel Coward. JRR Tolkien. > > > > Alla: > > Yes, I think Orwell is definitely a likely candidate, but for me he is > an author of one haunting book (I have not read anything else by him), > did you find his other works just as good? Animal farm is also his, right? I think '1984' is his masterpiece, but, yes, I think 'Animal Farm' is rightly a classic as well. I also think his three autobiographical/sociological works are very worthy. > I wondered about C.S.Lewis of course when I thought of Tolkien, but I > may have said it in the past - Lewis' books popularity (as works of art) > is something I just do not really understand, to me his books are just > very "in your face" retellings of Christianity for kids and some of > them, especially last one got so preachy that I wanted to throw the book > against the wall, but of course he is quite popular and it is possible > that his popularity will stand. Lewis wrote more a lot more than just the Chronicles of Narnia. The Screwtape Letters (and as a teacher, Screwtape Delivers a Toast, especially) are far more important and significant for a start > I do love Arthur Clarke and Rudyard Kipling, I am just wondering if they > will stand up a test of time, for me they are absolutely terrific > writers, I just wonder if they are good enough to be remember for a very > long time. Kipling, I think will definitely be remembered forever. I place him next to Shakespeare myself. > I am curious about James Joyce, VERY curious in fact. I was very very > proud of myself when I finished Ulisses in English, but boy oh boy I > have not had an urge to pick up any other work of his. Yes, he used > original writing technique in his book, yes, he made the reading of said > book extremely long affair (and of course it is understandable that I > will struggle, but I know several well read English speakers who felt > the same way), but would the ordinary person still know him? I would bet > that he would fall in obscurity and pretty fast, but of course I can be > wrong, since I am aware that in many literary circles Ulisses was > considered a work of genuius. Again, while I think Ulysses will always be remembered as his greatest work, it's not his most accessible, or in my view, the best one to read. Finnegan's Wake is much more of a read to enjoy book. > I have not read anything by Huxley, Forrester or Buchan or Noel Coward. > Anything by this writers that you would recommend in particularly? I > always try to fill in as many "cultural gaps" as I possibly can :) Huxley - A Brave New World, definitely. Forrester - any of the Hornblowers. Buchan - The Thirty-Nine Steps is his classic, and the one I consider the best read. Coward - more a playwright than anything else (but so was Shakespeare, for the most part - his poetry though significant is not where his great reputation comes from) and it's basically whatever you can manage to see. Shaun From dumbledad at yahoo.co.uk Mon Feb 13 17:08:07 2012 From: dumbledad at yahoo.co.uk (Tim) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2012 17:08:07 -0000 Subject: At Hogwarts, brb Message-ID: Hi All, These made me smile: http://www.embowman.com/2012/go-away-im-reading/ Cheers, Dumbledad From d2dmiles at yahoo.de Mon Feb 13 23:21:45 2012 From: d2dmiles at yahoo.de (Miles) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2012 00:21:45 +0100 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Writers and other artists of 20 century which in your opinion will be remembered In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2B39D726AF6047F5AE2AD3FF7DCC456A@MilesPC> Hi, I think it's a general problem to judge a century that ended only a decade ago, I agree with Shaun in that point. Since Alla asked not only for English or Anglo-American culture, let me comment on some of the names mentioned so far from my (German) point of view: C.S.Lewis: I'm sorry to say that he is far, far from being as popular outside US/UK. I never heard of Narnia before I joined this list. The movies might make a difference, but that does not help the author. Tolkien: Since I do not believe in the end of "fantasy" literature in the near future, Tolkien will be remembered as the father of this genre. Rowling: Maybe. Ask again in 30 years. George Orwell: 1984 and Animal Farm - I guess these will stay, and both are known worldwide Graham Greene: As an author? I don't know. The film The Third Man will survive, I guess. C.S. Forester: Actually I do not know him, so... Terry Pratchett: Is this more than intelligent wordplay? Rudyard Kipling: Perhaps, thanks to Disney's world wide distribution Arthur C. Clarke. John Buchan: Who? James Joyce: Difficult reading. Maybe something for scholars in 100 years? Aldous Huxley: Brave new world - anything more? (I know more and love it, but most people only know the title of B.N.W., not even the content) P.G. Wodehouse. Noel Coward: Who? Tolstoy, Dostoievski: Especially Tolstoy, yes. Known worldwide, at least in the northern hemisphere. Thomas Mann: Giant in German, I'm not sure about the world. Hermann Hesse: Popular in German and in the USA, but elsewhere? What about Agatha Christie? Paul McCartney and John Lennon (sic!) Picasso Dali Charlie Chaplin Alfred Hitchcock And many more... One should not forget modern ways of artistic expression. For example I guess, in near future we will see great artists who construct virtual realities - it won't be possible to call them "painter" or "author"... In my experience, people who see so much to be remembered in the past and near to nothing in their own time are quite often conservative in their aesthetic value system. They try to find the ways of old in the new - not finding it, or only finding it in those artists who copy and do not create. Miles From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 14 00:20:55 2012 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2012 00:20:55 -0000 Subject: Writers and other artists of 20 century which in your opinion will be remembered In-Reply-To: <4F389831.5070407@bigpond.com> Message-ID: Shawn: > Lewis wrote more a lot more than just the Chronicles of Narnia. The > Screwtape Letters (and as a teacher, Screwtape Delivers a Toast, > especially) are far more important and significant for a start. Alla: I will take a look at those, thank you. Shawn: > Again, while I think Ulysses will always be remembered as his greatest > work, it's not his most accessible, or in my view, the best one to read. > Finnegan's Wake is much more of a read to enjoy book. > Alla: And the writing style in Finnegan's wake is more accessible as well? Shawn: > Huxley - A Brave New World, definitely. > > Forrester - any of the Hornblowers. > > Buchan - The Thirty-Nine Steps is his classic, and the one I consider > the best read. > > Coward - more a playwright than anything else (but so was Shakespeare, > for the most part - his poetry though significant is not where his great > reputation comes from) and it's basically whatever you can manage to see. Alla: Will take a look at these, but when you said Hornblowers, I remembered that of course I have read Forrester. I managed one book and abandoned him, so very boring I found his writing to be and I did love the story mind you, I read the book because I enjoyed the movies at all, so I guess I disagree about him being remembered for a long time. Thanks Shawn for adding to my long To Be Read list :) From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 14 00:38:01 2012 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2012 00:38:01 -0000 Subject: Writers and other artists of 20 century which in your opinion will be remembered In-Reply-To: <2B39D726AF6047F5AE2AD3FF7DCC456A@MilesPC> Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Miles" wrote: > > Hi, > > I think it's a general problem to judge a century that ended only a decade > ago, I agree with Shaun in that point. Alla: I guess you guys are convincing me on this point that it is too early to judge for many artists of twentieth century, especially its second half, but I think we can at least see some trends for its first half. Miles: > Since Alla asked not only for English or Anglo-American culture, let me > comment on some of the names mentioned so far from my (German) point of > view: Alla: Of course! I was not brought up in Anglo-American culture myself, I read whatever I heard about in school, but it was not humongous amount, or whatever I was interested in, so my knowledge is still quite fragmental in some areas. Miles: > C.S.Lewis: I'm sorry to say that he is far, far from being as popular > outside US/UK. I never heard of Narnia before I joined this list. The movies > might make a difference, but that does not help the author. > Tolkien: Since I do not believe in the end of "fantasy" literature in the > near future, Tolkien will be remembered as the father of this genre. Alla: You do not have to be sorry Miles :). As I told Shawn, and of course I am only talking about Chronicles of Narnia, I am incredibly not impressed by those books myself and also never ever heard of C.S.Lewis before I came to live to America. But I most definitely heard of Tolkien and for the first time read it while I was still living in Ukraine/Soviet Union in Russian translation. Funnily, translation was terrible, I found the book incredibly boring and did not finish it. I only fell in love with it when I decided to try it here and in English. Miles: > Rowling: Maybe. Ask again in 30 years. > George Orwell: 1984 and Animal Farm - I guess these will stay, and both are > known worldwide > Graham Greene: As an author? I don't know. The film The Third Man will > survive, I guess. > C.S. Forester: Actually I do not know him, so... > Terry Pratchett: Is this more than intelligent wordplay? > Rudyard Kipling: Perhaps, thanks to Disney's world wide distribution > Arthur C. Clarke. John Buchan: Who? > James Joyce: Difficult reading. Maybe something for scholars in 100 years? > Aldous Huxley: Brave new world - anything more? (I know more and love it, > but most people only know the title of B.N.W., not even the content) > P.G. Wodehouse. Noel Coward: Who? > > Tolstoy, Dostoievski: Especially Tolstoy, yes. Known worldwide, at least in > the northern hemisphere. > Thomas Mann: Giant in German, I'm not sure about the world. > Hermann Hesse: Popular in German and in the USA, but elsewhere? > > What about Agatha Christie? > > Paul McCartney and John Lennon (sic!) > Picasso > Dali > Charlie Chaplin > Alfred Hitchcock > > And many more... Alla: Oh I know that Tolstoy is known and Dostoevsky as well, I was just saying that I do not think that any other Russian writers are known. Yes, definitely I think Picasso and Dali will stay. Yes, I am not sure Pratchett will stay for ages either. Charlie Chaplin - oh heck yes, but we did not even touch actors in the discussion with my friend, I would hope he would agree. Oh Hesse, I have unfortunately read only one work by him (so many books, so little time) and I cannot translate it from Russian. Oh well. Miles: > One should not forget modern ways of artistic expression. For example I > guess, in near future we will see great artists who construct virtual > realities - it won't be possible to call them "painter" or "author"... > > In my experience, people who see so much to be remembered in the past and > near to nothing in their own time are quite often conservative in their > aesthetic value system. They try to find the ways of old in the new - not > finding it, or only finding it in those artists who copy and do not create. Alla: Conservative? I have no idea about my friend, although he is an older gentleman, so maybe somewhat. Myself? Not really, no,especially not in literature and music (is Alfred Shnitke for example known anywhere except Russia? I would call him a genuis), but I will fully admit that I will never understand why paintings like "Black square" are considered work of genuis, so I suppose in that area of art I am kind of conservative. Give me Impressionists and Neo Impressionists at any time over any other painters (usually go to the rooms with them in Metropolitan museum of art and can sit there forever) and of course I love older paintings too :) . But I am again wondering, yes, it is the case of to close to judge, but is anybody of any doubt that Hitler, Lenin and Stalin will be remembered forever? As monsters, sure, but we as people who live in both 20 and 21 century are already perfectly confident in making that judgment, do we have such giants in arts (in a positive sense of course) to form such judgment for sure, not just wonder about it? From shaun.hately at bigpond.com Tue Feb 14 00:42:11 2012 From: shaun.hately at bigpond.com (Shaun Hately) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2012 11:42:11 +1100 Subject: [HPFGU-OTChatter] Writers and other artists of 20 century which in your opinion will be remembered In-Reply-To: <2B39D726AF6047F5AE2AD3FF7DCC456A@MilesPC> References: <2B39D726AF6047F5AE2AD3FF7DCC456A@MilesPC> Message-ID: <4F39ADE3.3040506@bigpond.com> On 14/02/2012 10:21 AM, Miles wrote: > C.S.Lewis: I'm sorry to say that he is far, far from being as popular > outside US/UK. I never heard of Narnia before I joined this list. The > movies > might make a difference, but that does not help the author. As I said in a previous message, Lewis is a lot more than Narnia. He wrote over fifty books and while the Narnia books are his best known, they are not his best or most literate work. Most of work does come from a Christian viewpoint, quite a lot of it is philosophical examining the impact of Christian beliefs. But even when he's exploring those things, it's not all he does. The Screwtape Letters, for example, take the form of letters from a senior Demon - Screwtape - in the bureaucracy of hell to his nephew Wormwood, and explores all sorts of aspects of the human condition. My favourite of them, as a teacher (and a traditionalist teacher specifically) actually was published after the others, and includes a stinging criticism of educational theory of the 1950s which is even more valid today. It's wonderfully written and wonderfully insightful at the same time. > C.S. Forester: Actually I do not know him, so... His best known works are a series of novels set during the Napoleonic War period about a Royal Naval officer named Horatio Hornblower as he rises from Midshipman to Admiral, but again this is only part of his overall body of work. > Terry Pratchett: Is this more than intelligent wordplay? Yes. Especially, and increasingly, in later works. He gets into some very deep philosophical areas at times. If I may, I'll just share two passages from his novels that I think address why I think he is, as he says 'guilty of literature' not just writing funny books. One of my favourite characters in the Discworld books is Sam Vimes. He is the Commander of the Ankh Morpork City Watch, the police. When we first see him, he's a self-hating drunk presiding over a remnant force of only a few men, but he and his force get turned around, and in later books, he has risen to being one of the most powerful men in the city, in charge of a large, efficient, police force. Vimes is always aware that he has a dark side. He knows he is capable of great evil - but he chooses not to be. He is basically incorruptible because he insists he will always do the right thing. He won't let the beast he knows inside of him out through sheer force of will. In this scene, he has finally captured a truly evil criminal. This man has killed one of Vimes' men and other people, and has threatened to harm Vimes' wife and newborn son, who really are the only things in Vimes life that he truly loves. ***** "That's it, Mister Vimes. No more knives. I can't run. I surrender. No messing about this time. I give in, okay? Just arrest me? For old times' sake?" The beast screamed inside Vimes. It screamed that no one would blame him for doing the hangman out of ten dollars and a free breakfast. Yeah, and you could say a swift stab now was the merciful solution, because every hangman knew you could go the easy way or the hard way and there wasn't one in the country that'd let something like Carcer go the easy way. The gods knew the man deserved it... ...But young Sam was watching him, across thirty years. When we break down, it all breaks down. That's just how it works. You can bend it, and if you make it hot enough you can bend it in a circle, but you can't break it. When you break it, it all breaks down until there's nothing unbroken. It starts here and now. He lowered the sword. Carcer looked up, grinning, and said, "Never tastes right, does it, haha, an egg without salt..." Vimes felt his hand begin to move of its own accord And stopped. Red rage froze. There was The Beast, all around him. And that's what it was. A beast. Useful, but still a beast. You could hold it on a chain, and make it dance, and juggle balls. It didn't think. It was dumb. What you were, what you were, was not The Beast. You didn't have to do what it wanted. If you did, Carcer won. He dropped the sword. Carcer stared at him, the gleam of Vimes's sudden smile more worrying than the rictus of his rage. Then metal gleamed in his hand. But Vimes was already on him, grabbing the hand, slamming it again and again on John Keel's headstone until the fourth knife dropped from bleeding fingers. He dragged the man upright with both hands forced up behind his back and rammed him hard against the stone. "See that up in the sky, Carcer?" he said, his mouth by the man's ear. "That's the sunset, that is. That's the stars. And they'll shine all the better on my lad Sam tomorrow night 'cos they won't be shining down on you, Carcer, by reason of the fact that before the dew's off the leaves in the morning I'll drag you in front of Vetinari, and we'll have the witnesses there, lots of 'em, and maybe even a lawyer for you if there's any of 'em who could plead for you with a straight face and then, Carcer, we'll take you to the Tanty, one gallows, no waiting, and you can dance the hemp fandango. And then I'll bleedin' well go home and maybe I'll even have a hard-boiled egg." "You're hurting!" "You know, you're right there, Carcer!" Vimes managed to get both the man's wrists in a steel grip, and ripped the sleeve off his own shirt. "I'm hurting and I'm still doing it all by the book." He wrapped the linen around the wrists a couple of times and knotted it firmly. "I'll make sure there's water in your cell, Carcer. I'll make sure you get breakfast, anything you like. I'll make sure the hangman doesn't get sloppy and let you choke to death. I'll even make sure the trapdoor is greased." He released the pressure. Carcer stumbled, and Vimes kicked his legs from under him. "The machine ain't broken, Carcer. The machine is waiting for you,' he said, tearing a sleeve off the man's own shirt and fashioning it into a crude binding for his ankles. The city will kill you dead. The proper wheels'll turn. It'll be fair, I'll make sure of that. Afterwards you won't be able to say you didn't have a fair trial. Won't be able to say a thing, haha. I'll see to that, too." ***** The second one, also concerns two members of the Watch - Captain Carrot Ironfounderson and his girlfriend/lover Angua. Angua is a werewolf, one who keeps all her tendencies towards mayhem under control. She left the city when she worried she was no longer able to control her feelings, and Carrot loves Angua with all his heart, and gave up everything else he valued to find her. But he is an utterly good and decent man. Angua's brother has recently gone wild, and been killing and hunting people, and Commander Vimes was forced to kill him to take him down. And now Carrot has finally found Angua, and the two are finally together again. ***** Let"s go now," said Carrot. "The coronation will be over soon, and I don"t want Mister Vimes to worry." "Carrot! I've got to know something." "Yes?" "That might happen to me. Have you ever thought about that? He was my brother, after all. Being two things at the same time, and never quite being one... we're not the most stable of creatures." "Gold and muck come out of the same shaft," said Carrot. "That's just a dwarf saying!" "It"s true, though. You"re not him." "Well, if it happened... if it did... would you do what Vimes did? Carrot? Would it be you who picked up a weapon and came after me? I know you won't lie. I've got to know. Would it be you?" A little snow slid down from the trees. The wolves watched. Carrot looked up for a moment at the grey sky and then nodded. "Yes." She sighed. "Promise?" she said. ***** > Rudyard Kipling: Perhaps, thanks to Disney's world wide distribution God, no. :) Again, Kipling is *far* more than the Jungle Book. He won the 1907 Nobel Prize for Literature for a reason and it wasn't The Jungle Book that counted. Personally, I think he greatest works are his poems. 'If...' is my favourite and probably his best known poem, but I think there are better poems out there. Again, just to share one. To understand this one, know that "Thomas Atkins" or "Tommy Atkins" was the name given to the archetypal "English soldier". Soldiers were given an example on how to fill out their paybooks with the name "Thomas Atkins" on it, and it became the general name for all English soldiers (why they were known as 'Tommies' in the First World War, for example). And Kipling wrote a poem called Tommy. **** I went into a public-'ouse to get a pint o' beer, The publican 'e up an' sez, "We serve no red-coats here." The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die, I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I: O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away"; But it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play, The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play, O it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play. I went into a theatre as sober as could be, They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me; They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls, But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls! For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, wait outside"; But it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide, The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide, O it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide. Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap; An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit. Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, 'ow's yer soul?" But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll, The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll, O it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll. We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too, But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you; An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints, Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints; While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, fall be'ind", But it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind, There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind, O it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind. You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires, an' all: We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational. Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace. For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!" But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot; An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please; An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool - you bet that Tommy sees! ***** > Arthur C. Clarke. John Buchan: Who? Arthur C. Clarke was one of the premier Science Fictions authors of the twentieth century. His best known book is 2001: A Space Odyssey, which was, of course, made into a film. John Buchan was a Scottish novelist (and eventually was also Governor General of Canada. He wrote somewhere around twenty or thirty novels about explorers and adventurers, really rollicking enjoyable works. > James Joyce: Difficult reading. Maybe something for scholars in 100 years? Not all of Joyce is difficult, but yes, a lot of it is. > Aldous Huxley: Brave new world - anything more? (I know more and love it, > but most people only know the title of B.N.W., not even the content) > P.G. Wodehouse. One of the greater humorous writers in English. Tended to write books set early in the twentieth century concerning upper class English gentlemen, rather parodying their ideas and attitudes. Juts incredibly funny. > Noel Coward: Who? A playwright and sometime songwriter. I'm not that surprised he might not be well known to German speakers as some of his work is decidedly anti-German - not surprising as it was written during the Second World War and they bombed his house (he was also on the list of people the Nazis planned to immediately round up and execute if they invaded Britain). From HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com Tue Feb 14 05:41:57 2012 From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com (HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com) Date: 14 Feb 2012 05:41:57 -0000 Subject: Happy Birthday, Brandon!, 2/14/2012, 12:00 am Message-ID: <1329198117.8.66839.m2@yahoogroups.com> Reminder from: HPFGU-OTChatter Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/cal Happy Birthday, Brandon! Tuesday February 14, 2012 All Day (This event repeats every year.) Notes: *stares at the deflated balloons and snaps her fingers to replace them with shiny, new ones* That's much better. Don't be shy, there's goodies and drinks on the tables along the back wall. Today's birthday honouree is Brandon. Birthday owls can be sent care of this list or directly to Brandon at: bak42 at comcast.net Oh, I nearly forgot! *pops out quickly and returns with a towering cake* Now we're ready for a party! May your day be magical and full of fun. Happy Birthday, Brandon! Rylly the Birthday Elf All Rights Reserved Copyright 2012 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kempermentor at yahoo.com Tue Feb 14 18:23:33 2012 From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (krules) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2012 18:23:33 -0000 Subject: Writers and other artists of 20 century which in your opinion will be remembered In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Alla: > But I am again wondering, yes, it is the case of to close to judge, but is anybody of any doubt that Hitler, Lenin and Stalin will be remembered forever? As monsters, sure, but we as people who live in both 20 and 21 century are already perfectly confident in making that judgment, do we have such giants in arts (in a positive sense of course) to form such judgment for sure, not just wonder about it? Kemper: First, congrats on completing Ulyssus (how do you spell it?). I would've gleefully taken the F for the tome and for the time to read other books. Second, the monsters. As there are still survivors in the world of the monsters, I wonder what the cultures response to those monsters in 2050 when those survivors and their kids will have gone beyond the veil. Third, composers. I agree with Gershwin and maybe Copland. What about John Williams? Not that I think he's a great composer (it seems all his work is in the same key), but he's prolific in internationally watched movies that might be watched in the future. Forth, what about singers? Edith Pilaf or Nina Simone or Elvis or others? Fifth, do comics count? Superman and Batman and Spiderman. Kemper From kempermentor at yahoo.com Tue Feb 14 18:59:07 2012 From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (krules) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2012 18:59:07 -0000 Subject: Writers and other artists of 20 century which in your opinion will be remembered In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Kemper: I've been think about how you're defining art. Painting and sculpture and etc are not as easily accessible internationally as music, tv, movies. What about Star Wars? Maybe Star Trek and its tv offspring? Are there video games (I don't game) that could be included? Kemper From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com Tue Feb 14 22:14:21 2012 From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2012 22:14:21 -0000 Subject: Writers and other artists of 20 century which in your opinion will be remembered In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: Alla: I wondered about C.S.Lewis of course when I thought of Tolkien, but I may have said it in the past - Lewis' books popularity (as works of art) is something I just do not really understand, to me his books are just very "in your face" retellings of Christianity for kids and some of them, especially last one got so preachy that I wanted to throw the book against the wall, but of course he is quite popular and it is possible that his popularity will stand. I mean, of course Tolkien is somebody who was deeply influenced by Christianity in his writings, but for me Tolkien wrote something very universal and what people of any faith (or atheists) can love. Lewis' writings just make me angry. Geoff: I'm coming to this thread late. Having flipped through OTC regularly and thought "Oh dear, nothing new", I came today after a couple of days gap and looked, gobsmacked, at the number of new posts. Alla, I fear that I shall disagree with you over this. JRR Tolkien, CS Lewis and JK Rowling all share something in common in that they are all writing from a Christian point of view. I agree that CS Lewis is probably the most overt in his presentation of Christian themes. However, if you read JRRT, especially in "The Silmarillion" he placed Middle Earth well inside the ideas of Christianity. The sections dealing with the creation of the world by Eru and the Ainur, who are given oversight of mortal races, deliberately parallel the real world; we have a fallen "Angel", Melkor who becomes Morgoth and who is comparable with Lucifer whose fall leads to him becoming Satan. JKR has also made many nods in the direction of Christian belief in the Harry Potter canon. As has been pointed out, CS Lewis (and for that matter JRR Tolkien) were not a priori fiction writers. They were both University lecturers and also close friends. CS Lewis, after his conversion, became a great apologist and wrote many, many devotional and teaching books; I recall having been deeply influenced by his writings as a young Christian in the 1960s. The Screwtape Letters and their sequel, were specifically written as a warning, albeit couched in humorous terms, to believers of the way in which their faith could be undermined and their witness weakened. In addition to these and the Narnia books, he also wrote the Ransom trilogy of science-fiction books (Out of the Silent Planet, Voyage to Venus and That Hideous Strength) which again also referenced Christian faith within their story. There is a truth in that these books can be appreciated by folk who are not Christian believers because there is some element of God in all of us whether we have connected with it or not. If I might digress to the question of the 20th century, I believe that much of our appreciation of lasting art, in its widest interpretation, has been progressively shaped and reshaped by the changing face of the media, probably greater in the 20th century than in any other. Consider that in 1901, films and sound recording were in their very infancy. Seeing a photograph or going to a concert; making a film or even reading a book was for varying sections of the population beyond their reach or considered as esoteric scientific exercises which would "never come to anything". I think that many of the books which have been mentioned have reached the lists because they have initially been successful and have been expanded by their creators until their characters have been so well delineated that we feel we know them as friends and even family. Isn't that the case with Harry, with Frodo and with some of the earlier writers? And doesn't it become even more so when those "friends" are brought to visual life in TV and film adaptations? My wife is a huge fan of the Forsyte Saga and Galsworthy's world has been made even more vivd by the brilliant TV adaptations of some decades ago. And I have to confess that, in the Potterverse, although my love is first for the books and second for the films, I see the characters as I read, in the personae of the films, Dan as Harry, Tom as Draco and so on. I won't go on much further (sigh of relief) but how much has music in the last century been increasingly produced for films or stage performance rather than the concert platform?. What do I think of when John Williams' name or Howard Shore's is mentioned? Film scores. The number of 20th and 21st century composers who produce full works for, say, concert performance in the tradition of Beethoven, Brahms or Mendelssohn, is becoming increasingly limited as we look at music as a part of a whole emotional and aesthetic experience. As has been suggested, we probably need to be another 25-30 years down the line before we can see what pattern the changing likes of readers and listeners and the ever-changing technical developments of artistic media will have shaped. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 15 00:38:08 2012 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2012 00:38:08 -0000 Subject: Writers and other artists of 20 century which in your opinion will be remembered In-Reply-To: Message-ID: .> Geoff: > I'm coming to this thread late. Having flipped through OTC regularly and > thought "Oh dear, nothing new", I came today after a couple of days gap > and looked, gobsmacked, at the number of new posts. Alla: I am glad my question reenergized OTC a little bit then :) Geoff: > Alla, I fear that I shall disagree with you over this. JRR Tolkien, CS Lewis > and JK Rowling all share something in common in that they are all writing > from a Christian point of view. Alla: I do not think we do disagree on this point, I am in complete agreement with you that all these three writers write from Christian point of view, what we do (probably) disagree on, although considering your next sentence I again not sure how much is that I consider C.S.Lewis the least accomplished *artist* from these three writers, I am going to put a disclaimer one more time, but this would be the last time, I have only read Narnia, so I only judge him as the artist who wrote those works. I know you are aware that I am not a Christian (neither do I follow traditional Judaism while being Jewish), in fact I do not follow any traditional religion, but I most definitely believe in God. Amusingly enough for me (and this is not something I am prepared to debate, so could we please not?), a lot of ideas of Christianity I am drawn to and share, most significantly the love to each other and one God. But there are quite a few ideas and messages of Christianity which I most definitely do not share and not drawn to. I am rambling, but please bear with me. My point is that for me (and not only for me), while I of course see *very* significant influence of Christianity in the works of JKR and Tolkien, I can relate to them, while I do not feel that Narnia is anything else but simple allegory of Christianity. I feel that Tolkien created the whole complex new world, which is while of course influenced by Christianity is *his* creation and Narnia, well, basically for me it comes down to "Yes, I get who the lion is, can we please see something more interesting and original". Not to mention of course that several things in Narnia books to me represent the ideas I most vehemently not drawn to and make me quite angry. Anyway, my main point is that I do know that these three are influenced by Christianity, I just feel that Lewis is the least succesful writer of them all. Geoff: I agree that CS Lewis is probably the most > overt in his presentation of Christian themes. Alla: For me this is an understatement, I would say very in your face and with very little presentation of his ideas in Narnia. Geoff: However, if you read JRRT, > especially in "The Silmarillion" he placed Middle Earth well inside the > ideas of Christianity. The sections dealing with the creation of the world > by Eru and the Ainur, who are given oversight of mortal races, deliberately > parallel the real world; we have a fallen "Angel", Melkor who becomes > Morgoth and who is comparable with Lucifer whose fall leads to him > becoming Satan. JKR has also made many nods in the direction of > Christian belief in the Harry Potter canon. Alla: Yes, I know and that is why I was barely able to finish Cilmarion once and reread LOTR every year. But I would still place Cilmarion higher than Narnia, even as companion to LOTR. Geoff: > As has been pointed out, CS Lewis (and for that matter JRR Tolkien) were > not a priori fiction writers. They were both University lecturers and also > close friends. CS Lewis, after his conversion, became a great apologist > and wrote many, many devotional and teaching books; I recall having > been deeply influenced by his writings as a young Christian in the 1960s. > The Screwtape Letters and their sequel, were specifically written as a > warning, albeit couched in humorous terms, to believers of the way > in which their faith could be undermined and their witness weakened. > > In addition to these and the Narnia books, he also wrote the Ransom > trilogy of science-fiction books (Out of the Silent Planet, Voyage to > Venus and That Hideous Strength) which again also referenced Christian > faith within their story. > > There is a truth in that these books can be appreciated by folk who are > not Christian believers because there is some element of God in all of > us whether we have connected with it or not. Alla: And thats my point I guess, I feel that Tolkien is telling us universal truths and whatever truths Lewis is telling us when he is talking about "other" people, who are portrayed so horribly because they don't believe in Aslan and only one of them (do not remember if those are the same people as portrayed in earlier book and the one who is portrayed in the last book) is allowed to enter to new Narnia, I want no part of. Geoff: > If I might digress to the question of the 20th century, I believe that > much of our appreciation of lasting art, in its widest interpretation, > has been progressively shaped and reshaped by the changing face of > the media, probably greater in the 20th century than in any other. > > Consider that in 1901, films and sound recording were in their very > infancy. Seeing a photograph or going to a concert; making a film > or even reading a book was for varying sections of the population > beyond their reach or considered as esoteric scientific exercises which > would "never come to anything". > > I think that many of the books which have been mentioned have > reached the lists because they have initially been successful and have > been expanded by their creators until their characters have been so > well delineated that we feel we know them as friends and even family. > Isn't that the case with Harry, with Frodo and with some of the earlier > writers? And doesn't it become even more so when those "friends" are > brought to visual life in TV and film adaptations? My wife is a huge > fan of the Forsyte Saga and Galsworthy's world has been made even > more vivd by the brilliant TV adaptations of some decades ago. And > I have to confess that, in the Potterverse, although my love is first for > the books and second for the films, I see the characters as I read, in > the personae of the films, Dan as Harry, Tom as Draco and so on. > > I won't go on much further (sigh of relief) but how much has music in > the last century been increasingly produced for films or stage > performance rather than the concert platform?. What do I think of > when John Williams' name or Howard Shore's is mentioned? Film > scores. The number of 20th and 21st century composers who > produce full works for, say, concert performance in the tradition of > Beethoven, Brahms or Mendelssohn, is becoming increasingly limited > as we look at music as a part of a whole emotional and aesthetic > experience. > > As has been suggested, we probably need to be another 25-30 years > down the line before we can see what pattern the changing likes of > readers and listeners and the ever-changing technical developments > of artistic media will have shaped. > Alla: Oh I do not have anything to argue with what you said here, I think I just have to think more about it. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 15 00:50:38 2012 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2012 00:50:38 -0000 Subject: Writers and other artists of 20 century which in your opinion will be remembered In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > Alla: > > But I am again wondering, yes, it is the case of to close to judge, but is anybody of any doubt that Hitler, Lenin and Stalin will be remembered forever? As monsters, sure, but we as people who live in both 20 and 21 century are already perfectly confident in making that judgment, do we have such giants in arts (in a positive sense of course) to form such judgment for sure, not just wonder about it? > > Kemper: > First, congrats on completing Ulyssus (how do you spell it?). I would've gleefully taken the F for the tome and for the time to read other books. Alla: Wait, wait do not laugh, I have read it of my own volition - not for class at all, for *book club*, which one gentleman wanted this book for. Oy. Kemper: > Second, the monsters. As there are still survivors in the world of the monsters, I wonder what the cultures response to those monsters in 2050 when those survivors and their kids will have gone beyond the veil. Alla: Oooooo, good point, but on the other hand, we still remember monsters from centuries ago, right? So I dont know, I want you to be right, thats for sure. Kemper: > Third, composers. I agree with Gershwin and maybe Copland. What about John Williams? Not that I think he's a great composer (it seems all his work is in the same key), but he's prolific in internationally watched movies that might be watched in the future. > > Forth, what about singers? Edith Pilaf or Nina Simone or Elvis or others? > > Fifth, do comics count? Superman and Batman and Spiderman. Alla: Everything counts. I have never heard anything by Copland, but thats my own ignorance, as I said,- fragmentary education in some areas of music and better in others. Yes, Edit Piaf was amazing. Elvis is huge in America, I know. But I never heard of him before I came here. Maybe he will be survive too, I have no idea, maybe a lot of people know about him around the world, just not me. I mean now I do, but not during first twenty or so years of my life :) From HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com Wed Feb 15 05:42:43 2012 From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com (HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com) Date: 15 Feb 2012 05:42:43 -0000 Subject: Happy Birthday x 3!, 2/15/2012, 12:00 am Message-ID: <1329284563.24.48076.m4@yahoogroups.com> Reminder from: HPFGU-OTChatter Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/cal Happy Birthday x 3! Wednesday February 15, 2012 All Day (This event repeats every year.) Notes: *rips down the old decorations and starts fresh with new streamers, balloons and sparkly lights* I hope you're ready for a party, we have a rare occurrence here - three birthdays today! Today's birthday honourees are Riet, Dan and MissNorbert van Ridgeback. Birthday owls can be sent care of this list or directly to Riet at: Riet.Strijker at gmail.com, to Dan at: severussnape at shaw.ca, or to MissNorbert at: wim.fok at consunet.nl You see those tables of goodies and drinks? They're set especially for this party and will never run out goodies! *pats herself on the back for thinking of this* Okay, there's only one thing missing! *exits and quickly returns with a table of cakes* Come on in, turn on the music and join the party! May you all have magical days and may your birthday wishes all come true. Happy Birthday, Riet! Happy Birthday, Dan! Happy Birthday, MissNorbert! Rylly the Birthday Elf All Rights Reserved Copyright 2012 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com Wed Feb 15 20:05:28 2012 From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2012 20:05:28 -0000 Subject: Writers and other artists of 20 century which in your opinion will be remembered In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: Geoff: > > Alla, I fear that I shall disagree with you over this. JRR Tolkien, CS Lewis > > and JK Rowling all share something in common in that they are all writing > > from a Christian point of view. Alla: > I do not think we do disagree on this point, I am in complete agreement with you that all these three writers write from Christian point of view, what we do (probably) disagree on, although considering your next sentence I again not sure how much is that I consider C.S.Lewis the least accomplished *artist* from these three writers, I am going to put a disclaimer one more time, but this would be the last time, I have only read Narnia, so I only judge him as the artist who wrote those works. > I know you are aware that I am not a Christian (neither do I follow traditional Judaism while being Jewish), in fact I do not follow any traditional religion, but I most definitely believe in God. Amusingly enough for me (and this is not something I am prepared to debate, so could we please not?), a lot of ideas of Christianity I am drawn to and share, most significantly the love to each other and one God. But there are quite a few ideas and messages of Christianity which I most definitely do not share and not drawn to. I am rambling, but please bear with me. Geoff: I would agree, speaking as a Christian, that some messages apparently from Christina sources are sometimes suspect, sometimes irrelevant. For me, and for many of my evangelical friends, Christian faith has, as its bedrock, two statements Jesus made: "For God so loved the world that he gave us his one and only son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life" and "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me". I liken Christianity to owning a car. Some people insist that they cannot have a car without automatic transmission, power steering, air conditioning etc. but a car functions perfectly well without these... Some church folk insist that they cannot worship without rituals, confession, prayers to the saints - which flies in the face of the New Testament definition of the word. This is where the line between religion and faith lies. A religious person can have true faith in Christ but many have not learnt what true faith is... Alla: My point is that for me (and not only for me), while I of course see *very* significant influence of Christianity in the works of JKR and Tolkien, I can relate to them, while I do not feel that Narnia is anything else but simple allegory of Christianity. I feel that Tolkien created the whole complex new world, which is while of course influenced by Christianity is *his* creation and Narnia, well, basically for me it comes down to "Yes, I get who the lion is, can we please see something more interesting and original". Not to mention of course that several things in Narnia books to me represent the ideas I most vehemently not drawn to and make me quite angry. Anyway, my main point is that I do know that these three are influenced by Christianity, I just feel that Lewis is the least succesful writer of them all. > Geoff: > I agree that CS Lewis is probably the most > > overt in his presentation of Christian themes. > Alla: > For me this is an understatement, I would say very in your face and with very little presentation of his ideas in Narnia. Geoff: I wonder how well versed you are in the seven Narnia books? The first "The Lion, the witch and the wardrobe" had a deliberate agenda on Lewis' part of presenting the story of Christ's coming and sacrifice in a form which would appeal to younger childfen. However, as he wrote more, story lines were not necessarily kept as close. There are broad hints at the Christian source - the lamb at the end of "The Voyage of the Dawn Treader" and the description of heaven at the close of "The Last Battle". > Alla: > Yes, I know and that is why I was barely able to finish Cilmarion once and reread LOTR every year. But I would still place Cilmarion higher than Narnia, even as companion to LOTR. Geoff: Bearing in mind what I said about "The Silmarillion", that is for me a strange decision on your part. Like you I have read LOTR many times; From first finding it as a mid-teenager until a growing family left me with insufficient time, I read it every year. I have read the former book completely about three times since it was published posthumously in 1977 and have found it difficult going in places. From bboyminn at yahoo.com Wed Feb 15 22:38:56 2012 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2012 22:38:56 -0000 Subject: Writers and other artists of 20 century which in your opinion will be remembered In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > > Hey guys, this is sort of "help me remember" post :). I was having a discussion with a good friend of mine in real life and real time today and he made an argument that 20 century have not produced many (if at all) writers, composers, painters which are destined to be remember forever. ... > > Alla > Steve: Others have made good suggestions so far, but I think we might make a worthy distinction here. Certainly there are many greats in the first part of the 20th Century, but what about the last half? It seems even leaner if we narrow the field in that way. Next, many of the greatest of the great died in obscurity and poverty. Like many modern artists, their frame rose, and they, within their lifetime, fell from grace. As an example, both Handel and Mozart died far below the height of their popularity. Handel was literally living poverty when he was talked into composing his most notable work "Messiah" to raise funds for a children's hospital. And despite his own poverty, he donated 100% of the proceeds from that work to the hospital. To determine what is truly classic, we have to see into the future well beyond that artist's lifetime, and likely well beyond our own. So, in the mid to later 20th Century can anyone think of any iconic artists who have the potential to out last the centuries? One modern writer comes to mind - Salman Rushdie. He certainly has made a significant contribution, but whether that contribution will endure is uncertain. In terms of visual art, meaning painting and sculpting, I think too much of art has moved to the abstract. While I don't deny the talent needed for abstract art, it doesn't seem to have the precision and artistry of more natural works. In terms of movies, I'm not sure; I'm not sure this is an enduring medium. It is certainly entertaining, but is it really just like oversize television, or is it possible for modern movies to create classics that will endure over the centuries? I really don't know. In terms of music; music is all about money. The art is secondary, I suspect if there are any enduring classics, they will be obscure in the moment, while enduring in the long run. Pop music is to transient, and based on the whims and emotions of the public. Justin Beiber, while insanely popular, will fade quickly when the 'cute' wears off. There are countless pop idols who come and go with no more than the tiniest blip on the radar screen of history. But what among modern music will endure, only time and history can tell us. To illustrate, a British artist, Edward Sheeran, has recently done a cover of "The Wayfaring Stranger" which has spawned countless YouTube cover videos, all attributing the song to Ed Sheeran. I'm just a poor wayfaring stranger I'm traveling through this world of woe Yet there's no sickness, toil nor danger In that bright land to which I go ... They see this as a modern song by a modern artist, yet is is an early 19th century spiritual folk ballad. An obscure song that has endured for TWO centuries, and has been covered by countless artists. A 2 century old ballad covered by countless artist of that span of time, yet how many people have actually heard it? There is something somewhat ironic in the obscurity of enduring fame. For those a bit long in the tooth, this was the signature song of Burl Ives. Burl Ives ... anyone ... Burl Ives? He was once, not that long ago, a house hold name across America. So, what lives and what dies in the field of art, only time and history can really tell. For what it is worth. Steve/bboyminn From geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com Wed Feb 15 23:24:37 2012 From: geoffbannister123 at btinternet.com (Geoff) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2012 23:24:37 -0000 Subject: Writers and other artists of 20 century which in your opinion will be remembered In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: Steve: For those a bit long in the tooth, this was the signature song of Burl Ives. Burl Ives ... anyone ... Burl Ives? He was once, not that long ago, a house hold name across America. Geoff: And here in the UK. "Big Rock Candy Mountain" anyone? I think that you are right in that many pop stars and their music are ephemeral; they pass in the night. There are modern exceptions. My mind goes back to the 50s and 60s and I can remember lots of songs because I could *hear* the lyrics, They were not screamed at full into mikes so that, curlously, they were almost inaudible against a background of drums, keyboards et al. Noise doesn't always cover a lack of ability. Some of the great early stars gave us songs which were singable and catchy and words which could be heard. Referring back to my earlier paragraph, it's very common to be in stores and find them playing "golden oldies" as part of their musical wallpaper. I notice that the range you hear is limited to just a small percentage of the stuff that has passed like meteors over us through the years and faded into the darkness of obscurity. Come back Beatles, all is forgiven. :-) From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Feb 18 18:01:49 2012 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2012 18:01:49 -0000 Subject: Writers and other artists of 20 century which in your opinion will be remembered In-Reply-To: Message-ID: .> Steve: > >.> To determine what is truly classic, we have to see into the future well beyond that artist's lifetime, and likely well beyond our own. > > So, in the mid to later 20th Century can anyone think of any iconic artists who have the potential to out last the centuries? > > One modern writer comes to mind - Salman Rushdie. He certainly has made a significant contribution, but whether that contribution will endure is uncertain. Alla: Yeah, maybe many will disagree with me, but two works by Rushdie that I tried (my usual limit to see if I like the author which is new to me) just did not do much for me. I mean they were certainly written very well, but I was not spell binded and that is an understatement. Steve: > In terms of music; music is all about money. The art is secondary, I suspect if there are any enduring classics, they will be obscure in the moment, while enduring in the long run. > > Pop music is to transient, and based on the whims and emotions of the public. Justin Beiber, while insanely popular, will fade quickly when the 'cute' wears off. There are countless pop idols who come and go with no more than the tiniest blip on the radar screen of history. But what among modern music will endure, only time and history can tell us. > > To illustrate, a British artist, Edward Sheeran, has recently done a cover of "The Wayfaring Stranger" which has spawned countless YouTube cover videos, all attributing the song to Ed Sheeran. > > I'm just a poor wayfaring stranger > I'm traveling through this world of woe > Yet there's no sickness, toil nor danger > In that bright land to which I go ... > > They see this as a modern song by a modern artist, yet is is an early 19th century spiritual folk ballad. An obscure song that has endured for TWO centuries, and has been covered by countless artists. A 2 century old ballad covered by countless artist of that span of time, yet how many people have actually heard it? There is something somewhat ironic in the obscurity of enduring fame. > > For those a bit long in the tooth, this was the signature song of Burl Ives. Burl Ives ... anyone ... Burl Ives? He was once, not that long ago, a house hold name across America. Alla: Very interesting about that ballad Steve, but yes, I do not believe in longetivity of a lot of pop music either, but I do listen to a lot of it as kind of relaxation technique :). You know, music where lyrics let you completely not engage your brain? :) I listen to a lot of Russian pop music, and I wonder sometimes why do they bother with lyrics at all? They certainly make little sense and have A LONG way to go to qualify as something which remotely resembles poetry. I was hoping (when I was less able to understand the words in english speaking pop music) that in general the lyrics are stronger - I do not think so anymore. I mean, obviously there are exceptions, but in general I am just far from being pleased. > > So, what lives and what dies in the field of art, only time and history can really tell. > > For what it is worth. > > Steve/bboyminn > From HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com Sat Feb 18 18:57:03 2012 From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com (HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com) Date: 18 Feb 2012 18:57:03 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 2/19/2012, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1329591423.11.96009.m10@yahoogroups.com> Reminder from: HPFGU-OTChatter Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/cal Weekly Chat Sunday February 19, 2012 1:00 pm - 2:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) Notes: Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2012 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Feb 25 03:30:54 2012 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2012 03:30:54 -0000 Subject: JKR's new novel for adults coming eventually (according to news) Message-ID: I am sure you guys saw the news, so are you going to buy it or not, when it is finally there? I so will, I am really curious whether she can write a work for adults and I will try my hardest not to compare it to Harry Potter :) Alla From HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com Sat Feb 25 18:56:59 2012 From: HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com (HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com) Date: 25 Feb 2012 18:56:59 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 2/26/2012, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1330196219.9.97048.m4@yahoogroups.com> Reminder from: HPFGU-OTChatter Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/cal Weekly Chat Sunday February 26, 2012 1:00 pm - 2:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) Notes: Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2012 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From annemehr at yahoo.com Sun Feb 26 23:59:07 2012 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2012 23:59:07 -0000 Subject: JKR's new novel for adults coming eventually (according to news) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > > I am sure you guys saw the news, so are you going to buy it or not, when it is finally there? I so will, I am really curious whether she can write a work for adults and I will try my hardest not to compare it to Harry Potter :) > > Alla > I thought I'd get it from the library. :) I was thinking -- my husband bought a paperback copy of Sorcerer's Stone for my daughter when she was nine years old in 1999. She's about to turn 22. So a great many of JKR's original fans who began the series as children must be adults by now. I wonder how they are feeling about it? Any differently than those of us who were adults the whole way? Annemehr